AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-gk
December 04, 2006 - December 14, 2006
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | OldBob Siegfried <oldbob(at)BeechOwners.com> |
| Subject: | Pitot Current Draw |
Good Evening Chuck,
That I do not know much about, but I do recall one
airplane where the low power was twenty eight volt DC
and the high temperature used 115 volt, 400 cycle, AC.
I would imagibne all of the varying power ones used
some variaton of high and low voltages.
Dropping resistors sure wouldn't solve your problem,
but an electronically cycled DC voltage may work.
Hopefully, 'Lectric Bob will have an idea!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
--- Chuck Jensen wrote:
> Jensen"
>
> Old Bob,
>
> I reread your posting more carefully this time which
> leads me to a
> follow up question. Now that I understand what a
> 'strut switch' is
> (which I knew by a different name), I'm curious how
> the 'low heat' for
> the ground operations worked. In other words, how
> did it provide low
> heat on the ground and high heat in the air?
>
> Chuck Jensen
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]
> On Behalf Of
> OldBob Siegfried
> Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 10:02 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Pitot Current Draw
>
>
> Siegfried
> -->
>
> Good Evening Lynn, Dick and Chuck,
>
> In a previous life, I flew quite a few airplanes
> that
> had a high and a low heat for the pitot tubes. They
> were on low for ground operations and on high heat
> for
> airborne use.
>
> I think it was controlled by a strut switch, but not
> sure.
>
> Worked well though.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
> --- Lynn Riggs wrote:
>
> > I would like to add that the pitot tube should
> burn
> > your hand if you grab it after it has been on for
> > more than 1 or 2 minutes.
> >
> > "Richard E. Tasker"
> wrote:
> E.
> > Tasker"
> >
> > There are ways, but what leads you to believe that
> > the pitot is really
> > too hot? The whole purpose of the heater is to
> keep
> > it clear in any
> > condition - rain, freezing rain, cold ambient,
> etc.
> > Depending on what
> > plane you have, you will be flying at upwards of
> 200
> > mph through all
> > this (hopefully NOT freezing rain) and the last
> > thing you want is for
> > the pitot to freeze up.
> >
> > Dick Tasker
> >
> > Chuck Jensen wrote:
> >
> > Jensen"
> > >
> > >I have a pitot on an Exp. Aircraft that was
> > designed for a heavier
> > >aircraft. To accommodate the high speed and high
> > altitude cold, the
> > >pitot was configured to get very hot, with
> > consumate amperage demand.
> > >Given the lower demands of a GA aircraft, is
> there
> > any way of reducing
> > >the heating of the pitot (very warm to the touch
> > would be fine...I don't
> > >need to be able to brand someone!) with a
> consumate
> > reduction in
> > >amperage demand?
> > >
> > >Chuck Jensen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Please Note:
> > No trees were destroyed in the sending of this
> > message. We do concede, however,
> > that a significant number of electrons may have
> been
> > temporarily inconvenienced.
> > --
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Lynn A. Riggs
> > riggs_la(at)yahoo.com
> > St. Paul, MN
> > BH #656 Kit #22
> >
>
http://home.comcast.net/~lariggs/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html
> >
> > ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Click on
> about
> provided
> www.buildersbooks.com
> Admin.
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | G McNutt <gmcnutt(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
Pitch reference - Yes, if you want to paint a gloomy picture lets throw
in night time, snow showers, over water and your venturi icing up and
the gyros slowing down, well with a heated pitot at least you could
still fly needle ball and airspeed! Lost a friend who did not have pitot
heat, you cannot fly with needle ball and altimeter.
George in Langley BC
>
> I've been following this thread, and this post begs the question I've
> been mulling over.
>
> What good is a heated pitot in an airplane without deicing equipment?
> I'm thinking that if the pitot is covered in ice, then so is the rest
> of the plane. Your airspeed is now next to useless, because all those
> stall speed numbers are now meaningless. Whatever they were before,
> they changed when the ice modified all the airfoils and the CG. A
> cockpit referenced backup altimeter would seem to give the best bang
> for the $time$...not terribly accurate, but sufficient to keep you out
> of cumulous granite until you can improve your situation.
>
> Ernest (a sunny day flyer).
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | G McNutt <gmcnutt(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw/Static Ports |
Hi Bruce
I know you said that with tongue in cheek, but it is interesting point.
If I remember correctly an alternate static valve or heated ports are
not required (Canada) if it can be demonstrated that the static ports
are not susceptible to icing. I opted for alternate static valve on my
RV's however I think that with dual static ports on the aft end of a
tapering fuselage they would be immune to icing unless the aircraft was
flown in a side slip. Anyone ever heard of side static ports icing over/up?
George in Langley BC
>
> Bruce Gray wrote:
>
snip
>> We all have heated
>> static ports, right? Alternate static air valves?
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Keith Hallsten" <KeithHallsten(at)quiknet.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Pitot Current Draw |
Chuck,
I mounted a 28v "Known Ice" pitot on the nose of my Velocity. Since I have
a 14 volt electrical system, its power consumption will be reduced by a
factor of 4 (power = V * V / R). I figure that is sufficient for my
purposes, because a Velocity is NOT a "Known Ice" type of airframe. If I
should find enough ice to overwhelm my "lightweight" pitot heating system, I
have bigger problems than the pitot. I'm not flying yet, but that's my
position for now.
Actually, now that we all have GPS available to us, loss of pitot is not as
critical as it used to be. With a fat margin to allow for wind, flying by
groundspeed is generally a fair approximation.
Regards,
Keith Hallsten
Subject: RE: Pitot Current Draw
From: Chuck Jensen (cjensen(at)dts9000.com
)
Date: Mon Dec 04 - 12:06 PM
Wow, I must be hard-of-speaking (or writing). I concede that flying
into icing when not so equipped is not a good idea, but if a person
flies IFR in the winter most anywhere in the continental US, sooner or
later, they'll pick up some ice. Even if my wings start looking like
something that should be used to cool a gin and tonic, I don't want to
lose air speed indication. Granted, I may not know what my new stall
speed is, but I would like to know WHAT my speed is...and I can't do
that with a pitot full of ice.
So, the question on the table is still the same, is there a way off
'turning down the heat' and reducing current draw?
Chuck Jensen
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Pitot Current Draw |
| From: | "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com> |
Hi, Keith,
That was exactly my thought process also. I didn't want a red hot
branding iron to bore my way through ice cubes...just warm enough to
keep the pitot stuffed full of rain water from freezing. If the icing
is bad enough that it freezes over a warm-to-very warm pitot, I've got
bigger problems that a red hot pitot won't solve.
Since no ideas have been tossed out, I wonder if there is an efficient
means of cycling the pitot heater on/off at some interval, such as on
for 30 seconds, off for two minutes. This would reduce the total
current draw if a person was in the soup, lost electrical and needed
whatever extra time available to get to safety but didn't dare to turn
off the pitot in marginal icing conditions.
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith
Hallsten
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 10:36 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw
Chuck,
I mounted a 28v "Known Ice" pitot on the nose of my Velocity. Since I
have a 14 volt electrical system, its power consumption will be reduced
by a factor of 4 (power = V * V / R). I figure that is sufficient for
my purposes, because a Velocity is NOT a "Known Ice" type of airframe.
If I should find enough ice to overwhelm my "lightweight" pitot heating
system, I have bigger problems than the pitot. I'm not flying yet, but
that's my position for now.
Actually, now that we all have GPS available to us, loss of pitot is not
as critical as it used to be. With a fat margin to allow for wind,
flying by groundspeed is generally a fair approximation.
Regards,
Keith Hallsten
Subject: RE: Pitot Current Draw
From: Chuck Jensen (cjensen(at)dts9000.com
)
Date: Mon Dec 04 - 12:06 PM
Wow, I must be hard-of-speaking (or writing). I concede that flying
into icing when not so equipped is not a good idea, but if a person
flies IFR in the winter most anywhere in the continental US, sooner or
later, they'll pick up some ice. Even if my wings start looking like
something that should be used to cool a gin and tonic, I don't want to
lose air speed indication. Granted, I may not know what my new stall
speed is, but I would like to know WHAT my speed is...and I can't do
that with a pitot full of ice.
So, the question on the table is still the same, is there a way off
'turning down the heat' and reducing current draw?
Chuck Jensen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Pitot Current Draw |
Chuck this is exactly what the Gretz heated pitot does.
http://www.gretzaero.com/ (ie cycles the power on/off to keep it warm
enough to melt ice, but not constantly hot.
Deems Davis RV10 # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
Chuck Jensen wrote:
> Hi, Keith,
>
> I wonder if there is an efficient means of cycling the pitot heater
> on/off at some interval,
>
> Chuck Jensen
> **
>
>*
>*
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lapsley R & Sandra E Caldwell <lrsecaldwell(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Aux Altenator switching. |
I am using Z13 with the 8 amp aux alternator.
I would like to insure that when I turn on the Aux Alt that the Main Alt
is off. I plan to use a dpdt (on-none-on) switch for the Aux
Alternator. The aux alternator would be wired normally. The main
alternator field would be wired in series with the Aux alternator such
that when the Aux Alt is off, the field power is enabled to the Main Alt
switch (Bat & main alt switch.). When the auxs alt switxh is on the
main alt field would be disconnected.
Does anyone see any problem with this plan?
Roger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CardinalNSB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | RG 400 into Molex crimp terminal, best way? |
I need to bring RG400 marker beacon coax into my PS Eng., audio panel using
a "Molex" crimp terminal on the coax. This seems like a mismatch sizewise.
(I believe it is a Molex K.K. .156 Terminal Connectors (crimp pins), P/N
08-05-0302, Mouser P/N 538-08-05-0302, .33-cents each, looks the same as the
crimp pins for the Narco Mk12D and King KNS-80 and KI-206, the King part number
is KPN-030-1107-30. Can anyone verify this is the correct Molex number, the
measurements match what I have.)
1. What is the best way to connect the RG400 to the Molex crimp terminal?
a. Crimp the center conductor to Molex crimp terminal, if so the insulation
around the center connector is pretty large, do I simply trim it to #18 size
for the insulation crimp? I have been unsuccessful in obtaining a good
crimp on the RG400 and end up with a fragile connection. There isn't room to
add
heat shrink to stiffen it up, since the crimp is a tight fit in the
connector box.
I assume coax is generally designed for the bnc type connectors and that
center conductor flexability is not usually an issue.
b. Crimp or solder a short length of #18 to the center conductor for ease
of crimping the #18 to the Molex crimp terminal? Stabilize the joint with
heat shrink.
c. Strip back the center conductor about an inch, put some heat shrink on
the center conductor for better grip by the Molex on the insulation?
d. Is there an alternate coax that is more crimp friendly, to create a
pigtail that connects to the RG400?
I prefer to avoid extra connections (in general), and with my service loop
(coax bundled with intercom/mike/speaker wires) and mounting position I don't
forsee needing to disconnect the marker beacon coax for future
addition/deletions of avionics from the audio panel.
e. Other ideas?
3. I have tried crimping these with the "changeable jaw" crimper, not
pretty. It's probably my lack of technique, but can anyone recommend a user
friendly crimper-ebay has "Molex HTR1031E Crimp Tool" is this the right tool for
these Molex crimp terminals?
I couldn't find anything on the archives, my apologies if I missed it.
Thanks for any help, and Bob thanks for the reply on the alternator wiring,
I now understand the function of the extra A+ wire. Sincerely, Skip Simpson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
OldBob Siegfried wrote:
>Dropping resistors sure wouldn't solve your problem,
>but an electronically cycled DC voltage may work.
>
>Hopefully, 'Lectric Bob will have an idea!
>
>Happy Skies,
>
>Old Bob
>
>
Actually, the dropping resistor could work. Heat output is a function
of wattage, which is given by V^2*R in a DC circuit. If you could find
a way to add an extra high wattage resister in series with the pitot
heating element, you would be dropping the current requirement. A 150
watt heater is going to have a resistance around 1 ohm in a 12V system.
Add a 1 ohm resistor in series, and the circuit will burn up 75 watts.
The resistor will suck down 37.5W and the heater will get 37.5
(ignoring line losses for the moment). If you could find a way to use
the pitot mounting as a heat sink for the resistor, it might actually be
workable.
I still don't think it's a good use of $time$, but that's just me 8*)
--
,|"|"|, Ernest Christley |
----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder |
o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org |
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Pitot Current Draw |
| From: | "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com> |
Keith
I think you have your assumptions are not correct. While your
transposition of the formula E=I*R is correct, The formula for Power
consumption is PIE or P=I*E, so if you have half the volts, the amps
will double to maintain the same wattage. So if you are counting on the
actual current draw to go down it will not in this case, in fact it will
double to keep the same heat. Now that is not to say you can not limit
the draw and run the pitot colder, but then that would negate having a
pitot.
Am I missing something?
Dan
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith
Hallsten
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 10:36 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw
Chuck,
I mounted a 28v "Known Ice" pitot on the nose of my Velocity. Since I
have a 14 volt electrical system, its power consumption will be reduced
by a factor of 4 (power = V * V / R). I figure that is sufficient for
my purposes, because a Velocity is NOT a "Known Ice" type of airframe.
If I should find enough ice to overwhelm my "lightweight" pitot heating
system, I have bigger problems than the pitot. I'm not flying yet, but
that's my position for now.
Actually, now that we all have GPS available to us, loss of pitot is not
as critical as it used to be. With a fat margin to allow for wind,
flying by groundspeed is generally a fair approximation.
Regards,
Keith Hallsten
Subject: RE: Pitot Current Draw
From: Chuck Jensen (cjensen(at)dts9000.com
)
Date: Mon Dec 04 - 12:06 PM
Wow, I must be hard-of-speaking (or writing). I concede that flying
into icing when not so equipped is not a good idea, but if a person
flies IFR in the winter most anywhere in the continental US, sooner or
later, they'll pick up some ice. Even if my wings start looking like
something that should be used to cool a gin and tonic, I don't want to
lose air speed indication. Granted, I may not know what my new stall
speed is, but I would like to know WHAT my speed is...and I can't do
that with a pitot full of ice.
So, the question on the table is still the same, is there a way off
'turning down the heat' and reducing current draw?
Chuck Jensen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | OldBob Siegfried <oldbob(at)BeechOwners.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
Good Morning Ernest,
That will drop the voltage and make the pitot tube
cooler, but it is my understanding that such was NOT
the problem he was attempting to solve.
What he wants to do is reduce the current.
Adding a dropping resistor just puts that current
somewhere other than into the pitot heater. Cycling
the power would reduce the heat AND the current
required.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
--- Ernest Christley wrote:
> Christley
>
> OldBob Siegfried wrote:
>
> >Dropping resistors sure wouldn't solve your
> problem,
> >but an electronically cycled DC voltage may work.
> >
> >Hopefully, 'Lectric Bob will have an idea!
> >
> >Happy Skies,
> >
> >Old Bob
> >
> >
>
> Actually, the dropping resistor could work. Heat
> output is a function
> of wattage, which is given by V^2*R in a DC circuit.
> If you could find
> a way to add an extra high wattage resister in
> series with the pitot
> heating element, you would be dropping the current
> requirement. A 150
> watt heater is going to have a resistance around 1
> ohm in a 12V system.
> Add a 1 ohm resistor in series, and the circuit will
> burn up 75 watts.
> The resistor will suck down 37.5W and the heater
> will get 37.5
> (ignoring line losses for the moment). If you could
> find a way to use
> the pitot mounting as a heat sink for the resistor,
> it might actually be
> workable.
>
> I still don't think it's a good use of $time$, but
> that's just me 8*)
>
> --
> ,|"|"|, Ernest Christley
> |
> ----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder
> |
> o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org
> |
>
>
> Click on
> about
> provided
> www.buildersbooks.com
> Admin.
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "SteinAir, Inc." <stein(at)steinair.com> |
| Subject: | RG 400 into Molex crimp terminal, best way? |
Best practice is not to wire the RG-400 directly into the connector, but
rather to use something like AWG20 on the center conductor, put a solder
sleeve over the shield with a pigtail of another AWG20 then run the two
wires into the connector - and of course support the coax so it does't rip
out the wires. You can see a picture of our typical Mkr Bcn pigtail here:
http://www.steinair.com/images/store/MKR.jpg We have a black/white strip
for the ctr conductor and a black wire for the shield (which is kind of
hidden in the picture).
Hope that helps.
Cheers,
Stein.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
CardinalNSB(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 8:23 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RG 400 into Molex crimp terminal, best way?
I need to bring RG400 marker beacon coax into my PS Eng., audio panel
using a "Molex" crimp terminal on the coax. This seems like a mismatch
sizewise.
(I believe it is a Molex K.K. .156 Terminal Connectors (crimp pins), P/N
08-05-0302, Mouser P/N 538-08-05-0302, .33-cents each, looks the same as the
crimp pins for the Narco Mk12D and King KNS-80 and KI-206, the King part
number is KPN-030-1107-30. Can anyone verify this is the correct Molex
number, the measurements match what I have.)
1. What is the best way to connect the RG400 to the Molex crimp terminal?
a. Crimp the center conductor to Molex crimp terminal, if so the
insulation around the center connector is pretty large, do I simply trim it
to #18 size for the insulation crimp? I have been unsuccessful in obtaining
a good crimp on the RG400 and end up with a fragile connection. There isn't
room to add heat shrink to stiffen it up, since the crimp is a tight fit in
the connector box.
I assume coax is generally designed for the bnc type connectors and that
center conductor flexability is not usually an issue.
b. Crimp or solder a short length of #18 to the center conductor for ease
of crimping the #18 to the Molex crimp terminal? Stabilize the joint with
heat shrink.
c. Strip back the center conductor about an inch, put some heat shrink on
the center conductor for better grip by the Molex on the insulation?
d. Is there an alternate coax that is more crimp friendly, to create a
pigtail that connects to the RG400?
I prefer to avoid extra connections (in general), and with my service
loop (coax bundled with intercom/mike/speaker wires) and mounting position I
don't forsee needing to disconnect the marker beacon coax for future
addition/deletions of avionics from the audio panel.
e. Other ideas?
3. I have tried crimping these with the "changeable jaw" crimper, not
pretty. It's probably my lack of technique, but can anyone recommend a user
friendly crimper-ebay has "Molex HTR1031E Crimp Tool" is this the right tool
for these Molex crimp terminals?
I couldn't find anything on the archives, my apologies if I missed it.
Thanks for any help, and Bob thanks for the reply on the alternator
wiring, I now understand the function of the extra A+ wire. Sincerely,
Skip Simpson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Henderson" <wf-k(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | RG 400 into Molex crimp terminal, best way? |
I loved the way you did your wire marking. Is that available at
Steinair?
What is the part number?
Dave Henderson RV-7
N925LW (Lord Willing)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
SteinAir,
Inc.
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 10:41 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RG 400 into Molex crimp terminal, best
way?
Best practice is not to wire the RG-400 directly into the connector, but
rather to use something like AWG20 on the center conductor, put a solder
sleeve over the shield with a pigtail of another AWG20 then run the two
wires into the connector - and of course support the coax so it does't
rip
out the wires. You can see a picture of our typical Mkr Bcn pigtail
here:
http://www.steinair.com/images/store/MKR.jpg We have a black/white
strip
for the ctr conductor and a black wire for the shield (which is kind of
hidden in the picture).
Hope that helps.
Cheers,
Stein.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
CardinalNSB(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 8:23 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RG 400 into Molex crimp terminal, best way?
I need to bring RG400 marker beacon coax into my PS Eng., audio panel
using
a "Molex" crimp terminal on the coax. This seems like a mismatch
sizewise.
(I believe it is a Molex K.K. .156 Terminal Connectors (crimp pins),
P/N
08-05-0302, Mouser P/N 538-08-05-0302, .33-cents each, looks the same as
the
crimp pins for the Narco Mk12D and King KNS-80 and KI-206, the King part
number is KPN-030-1107-30. Can anyone verify this is the correct Molex
number, the measurements match what I have.)
1. What is the best way to connect the RG400 to the Molex crimp
terminal?
a. Crimp the center conductor to Molex crimp terminal, if so the
insulation
around the center connector is pretty large, do I simply trim it to #18
size
for the insulation crimp? I have been unsuccessful in obtaining a good
crimp on the RG400 and end up with a fragile connection. There isn't
room
to add heat shrink to stiffen it up, since the crimp is a tight fit in
the
connector box.
I assume coax is generally designed for the bnc type connectors and that
center conductor flexability is not usually an issue.
b. Crimp or solder a short length of #18 to the center conductor for
ease
of crimping the #18 to the Molex crimp terminal? Stabilize the joint
with
heat shrink.
c. Strip back the center conductor about an inch, put some heat shrink
on
the center conductor for better grip by the Molex on the insulation?
d. Is there an alternate coax that is more crimp friendly, to create a
pigtail that connects to the RG400?
I prefer to avoid extra connections (in general), and with my service
loop
(coax bundled with intercom/mike/speaker wires) and mounting position I
don't forsee needing to disconnect the marker beacon coax for future
addition/deletions of avionics from the audio panel.
e. Other ideas?
3. I have tried crimping these with the "changeable jaw" crimper, not
pretty. It's probably my lack of technique, but can anyone recommend a
user
friendly crimper-ebay has "Molex HTR1031E Crimp Tool" is this the right
tool
for these Molex crimp terminals?
I couldn't find anything on the archives, my apologies if I missed it.
Thanks for any help, and Bob thanks for the reply on the alternator
wiring,
I now understand the function of the extra A+ wire. Sincerely, Skip
Simpson
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
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href
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matroni
cs.
com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Pitot Current Draw |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Dan,
I believe the pitot heating element is a simple resistor. Adding series
resistance in line with the heating element will indeed LOWER the current
through the circuit, as well as lowering the voltage drop across the pitot
element. I am pretty sure the pitot heater is not a constant power device
(which is what I think you were describing).
Regards,
Matt-
> Keith
> I think you have your assumptions are not correct. While your
> transposition of the formula E=I*R is correct, The formula for Power
> consumption is PIE or P=I*E, so if you have half the volts, the amps
> will double to maintain the same wattage. So if you are counting on the
> actual current draw to go down it will not in this case, in fact it will
> double to keep the same heat. Now that is not to say you can not limit
> the draw and run the pitot colder, but then that would negate having a
> pitot.
> Am I missing something?
> Dan
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith
> Hallsten
> Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 10:36 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw
>
>
> Chuck,
>
> I mounted a 28v "Known Ice" pitot on the nose of my Velocity. Since I
> have a 14 volt electrical system, its power consumption will be reduced
> by a factor of 4 (power = V * V / R). I figure that is sufficient for
> my purposes, because a Velocity is NOT a "Known Ice" type of airframe.
> If I should find enough ice to overwhelm my "lightweight" pitot heating
> system, I have bigger problems than the pitot. I'm not flying yet, but
> that's my position for now.
>
> Actually, now that we all have GPS available to us, loss of pitot is not
> as critical as it used to be. With a fat margin to allow for wind,
> flying by groundspeed is generally a fair approximation.
>
> Regards,
>
> Keith Hallsten
>
>
> Subject: RE: Pitot Current Draw
> From: Chuck Jensen (cjensen(at)dts9000.com
> =8984A39879F2F5418251CBEEC9C689B32870D7(at)lucky.dts.local> )
> Date: Mon Dec 04 - 12:06 PM
> Wow, I must be hard-of-speaking (or writing). I concede that flying
>
> into icing when not so equipped is not a good idea, but if a person
>
> flies IFR in the winter most anywhere in the continental US, sooner or
>
> later, they'll pick up some ice. Even if my wings start looking like
>
> something that should be used to cool a gin and tonic, I don't want to
>
> lose air speed indication. Granted, I may not know what my new stall
>
> speed is, but I would like to know WHAT my speed is...and I can't do
>
> that with a pitot full of ice.
>
> So, the question on the table is still the same, is there a way off
>
> 'turning down the heat' and reducing current draw?
>
> Chuck Jensen
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Hello Bob,
Adding series resistance causes the total resistance rises, so the total
current drops. That will reduce the total circuit power as well as the
power delivered to the pitot (less voltage drop across the pitot).
I agree that this is an inefficient way to accomplish the task - wasted
heat on the dropping resistor.
A simple way (from a drive circuitry standpoint) to accomplish the task
would be to have a pitot tube with two heating elements. They could be
different sizes (wattage values). Turn on the "ground" element to keep it
warm while taxiing, and a "branding iron" element to stave off a full
arctic blast. Turn both on at once so you know how fast you're falling
out of the sky.. :)
Actually, your idea of cycling the pitot heat probably works great too
(maybe that's how it's actually done). The only downside I can think of
is that cycling a high power device can cause weird noise events on the
power bus (dimming lights). Probably not a big deal if installed/wired
properly (low impedance path to the battery).
Regards,
Matt-
>
>
> Good Morning Ernest,
>
> That will drop the voltage and make the pitot tube
> cooler, but it is my understanding that such was NOT
> the problem he was attempting to solve.
>
> What he wants to do is reduce the current.
>
> Adding a dropping resistor just puts that current
> somewhere other than into the pitot heater. Cycling
> the power would reduce the heat AND the current
> required.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
>
> --- Ernest Christley wrote:
>
>> Christley
>>
>> OldBob Siegfried wrote:
>>
>> >Dropping resistors sure wouldn't solve your
>> problem,
>> >but an electronically cycled DC voltage may work.
>> >
>> >Hopefully, 'Lectric Bob will have an idea!
>> >
>> >Happy Skies,
>> >
>> >Old Bob
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Actually, the dropping resistor could work. Heat
>> output is a function
>> of wattage, which is given by V^2*R in a DC circuit.
>> If you could find
>> a way to add an extra high wattage resister in
>> series with the pitot
>> heating element, you would be dropping the current
>> requirement. A 150
>> watt heater is going to have a resistance around 1
>> ohm in a 12V system.
>> Add a 1 ohm resistor in series, and the circuit will
>> burn up 75 watts.
>> The resistor will suck down 37.5W and the heater
>> will get 37.5
>> (ignoring line losses for the moment). If you could
>> find a way to use
>> the pitot mounting as a heat sink for the resistor,
>> it might actually be
>> workable.
>>
>> I still don't think it's a good use of $time$, but
>> that's just me 8*)
>>
>> --
>> ,|"|"|, Ernest Christley
>> |
>> ----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder
>> |
>> o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org
>> |
>>
>>
>> Click on
>> about
>> provided
>> www.buildersbooks.com
>> Admin.
>>
>> browse
>> Subscriptions page,
>> FAQ,
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Pitot Current Draw |
Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
> Keith
> I think you have your assumptions are not correct. While your
> transposition of the formula E=I*R is correct, The formula for Power
> consumption is PIE or P=I*E, so if you have half the volts, the amps
> will double to maintain the same wattage. So if you are counting on
> the actual current draw to go down it will not in this case, in fact
> it will double to keep the same heat. Now that is not to say you can
> not limit the draw and run the pitot colder, but then that would
> negate having a pitot.
> Am I missing something?
> Dan
Yes. You're missing http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-ohm.htm
I keep a copy of that taped to the inside of my electronics toolbox's lid.
You've got 12V (actually 13.4). Double the resistance, you halve the
current (I=V/R). Halving the current will also cut the power in half
(P=V*I), decreasing the heater effectiveness as you state; but the
original problem was the builder willing to settle for a drop in
effectiveness in exchange for extended battery life.
--
,|"|"|, Ernest Christley |
----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder |
o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aux Altenator switching. |
>
>
>I am using Z13 with the 8 amp aux alternator.
>
>I would like to insure that when I turn on the Aux Alt that the Main Alt
>is off.
Why?
> I plan to use a dpdt (on-none-on) switch for the Aux Alternator. The
> aux alternator would be wired normally. The main alternator field would
> be wired in series with the Aux alternator such that when the Aux Alt is
> off, the field power is enabled to the Main Alt switch (Bat & main alt
> switch.). When the auxs alt switxh is on the main alt field would be
> disconnected.
>
>Does anyone see any problem with this plan?
Don't see a need for it. Further, any part that is
NOT on your airplane is not going to be a part that
fails. Having one switch exert command and control over
systems that are supposed to back each other up
does not produce nice failure modes effects analysis.
There is no danger to any equipment on the airplane by
having both alternators on at the same time. I'll
recommend you install Z-13 as published.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw/Static Ports |
>
>
>Hi Bruce
>
>I know you said that with tongue in cheek, but it is interesting point. If
>I remember correctly an alternate static valve or heated ports are not
>required (Canada) if it can be demonstrated that the static ports are not
>susceptible to icing. I opted for alternate static valve on my RV's
>however I think that with dual static ports on the aft end of a tapering
>fuselage they would be immune to icing unless the aircraft was flown in a
>side slip. Anyone ever heard of side static ports icing over/up?
Don't know if anyone has actually seen them ice up but
static ports on our new Horizon are heated.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
OldBob Siegfried wrote:
>
>Good Morning Ernest,
>
>That will drop the voltage and make the pitot tube
>cooler, but it is my understanding that such was NOT
>the problem he was attempting to solve.
>
>What he wants to do is reduce the current.
>
>Adding a dropping resistor just puts that current
>somewhere other than into the pitot heater. Cycling
>the power would reduce the heat AND the current
>required.
>
>Happy Skies,
>
>Old Bob
>
>
>
Yes it would, but compared to adding a series resistor it will also add
a semi-complex cycling circuit (with the definition of complex being
left as an exercise for the reader). My suggestion would only be useful
if it were possible to use the heat generated from the resistor. If I
were trying to accomplish this on my installation, I would bolt the
resistor to the pitot's base using heat-sink grease at a point that
would put it under the fairing. The pitot becomes the heat-sink for the
resistor (as well as the internal heating element). Using the previous
numbers that I pulled out of the ether, the resistor and heater would
produce 37.5W of heat each. The heater's power would be as efficient as
the unmodified version, but the resistor's heat has to jump across a
couple interfaces and down the pitot's post. Overall, the pitot heater
would be less than half as effective.
--
,|"|"|, Ernest Christley |
----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder |
o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Pitot Current Draw |
>Hi, Keith,
>
>That was exactly my thought process also. I didn't want a red hot
>branding iron to bore my way through ice cubes...just warm enough to keep
>the pitot stuffed full of rain water from freezing. If the icing is bad
>enough that it freezes over a warm-to-very warm pitot, I've got bigger
>problems that a red hot pitot won't solve.
>
>Since no ideas have been tossed out, I wonder if there is an efficient
>means of cycling the pitot heater on/off at some interval, such as on for
>30 seconds, off for two minutes. This would reduce the total current draw
>if a person was in the soup, lost electrical and needed whatever extra
>time available to get to safety but didn't dare to turn off the pitot in
>marginal icing conditions.
We need to define "efficient". If this means highest
reliability and minimum parts count, then a series resistor
can be used to reduce energy dissipated in the tube
(and total energy consumed by the system) but even tho
the tube heat is reduced, the resistor dumps energy too.
The most efficient electrically is a switchmode step-down
converter that can supply power to the pitot heater at any
voltage while limiting losses in the heat controller to
20% or so of total power. But this is a busy piece of
electronics that adds parts count to the system but when
operating properly, offers the lowest risk for noise
problems while offering complete adjustability of the
low power mode.
You can also duty cycle switch the tube and while this
offers a VERY efficient means of controlling energy, it
puts repetitive pulses of current on the bus that
WILL generate considerable noise (I'm working a similar
problem right now on a $14M$ airplane that has a
$50K$ coffee maker installed on it).
Help us understand your primary goal. Certainly, energized
pitot tubes offer considerable hazard on the ground. How
about a switch that keeps the tube off unless RPM is over
1000 rpm? How about an airspeed switch? Both of these
systems could be fitted with warning lights that show a
de-energized pitot heater when the pitot heat switch is ON.
Help us understand your design goals. Using a 28v tube
is an option too. Given the temperature coefficient
for the heaters, running a tube at 1/2 voltage still
produces more than 1/4 rated power. But keep in mind that
there is a thermal resistance component between a heater
and the pitot tube's surface. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Pitot_Heater_R_Plot.pdf
The data point at 9.85 amps was taken while the surface
of the tube was being held at 0C in an ice bath. These
are the worst case conditions for icing but note that
while the surface was at 0C, the heater itself was running
at about 140C! See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Pitot_tube_temps_at_altitude.pdf
This data was collected on a flight to 41K feet. Note that
at cruise, the pitot tube's SURFACE temperature (LT4) was
running over 100C at 200Kts IAS and RAT of -35C. This was
the same tube plotted in the earlier graph.
Just be wary of advice supported by anecdotal experiences.
The "numbers" that describe the tube's ability to shed
ice are locked into the physics and not all tubes are the
same. Attempts to control the tube's power consumption
increases parts count and raises needs for additional
monitoring to let you know when the control system has
failed so that you can bypass it and go to full power.
Some power control schemes have system integration issues
to consider as well. Be wary too of any notions that
"a small portion" of design power is a useful thing to
design into your system.
Let's consider your design goals. Exactly why and under what
conditions do you want to moderate pitot tube performance?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Pitot Current Draw |
http://www.gretzaero.com/ga1000.html
If the control system for this tube is designed to actively
maintain the SURFACE temperature of tube at ice-shedding
temperatures, then it's a good thing to do. I've considered
pitot tube controllers based on measuring resitance of the
heater during OFF time of a duty cycle controller . . . but
knowing heater temperature is not the same as knowing tube
surface temperature . . . for reasons cited in the other post.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aux Altenator switching. |
Bob,
Does your comment "There is no danger to any equipment on the airplane by
having both alternators on at the same time. "
Does this mean if I add a John Deere 20a and run at the same time
as my Rotax 18 Amp unit that I can get 38 amps max case? Any down
side to doing this?
Thanks, Paul
===============
At 08:35 AM 12/5/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>
>>Caldwell
>>
>>I am using Z13 with the 8 amp aux alternator.
>>
>>I would like to insure that when I turn on the Aux Alt that the
>>Main Alt is off.
>
> Why?
>
>> I plan to use a dpdt (on-none-on) switch for the Aux
>> Alternator. The aux alternator would be wired normally. The main
>> alternator field would be wired in series with the Aux alternator
>> such that when the Aux Alt is off, the field power is enabled to
>> the Main Alt switch (Bat & main alt switch.). When the auxs alt
>> switxh is on the main alt field would be disconnected.
>>
>>Does anyone see any problem with this plan?
>
> Don't see a need for it. Further, any part that is
> NOT on your airplane is not going to be a part that
> fails. Having one switch exert command and control over
> systems that are supposed to back each other up
> does not produce nice failure modes effects analysis.
>
> There is no danger to any equipment on the airplane by
> having both alternators on at the same time. I'll
> recommend you install Z-13 as published.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Banus" <mbanus(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | RE: RE: Instrument mounting screw washers |
Bruce,
These are actually the screws that attach the Al 2 panel inserts to the
Glasair Fiberglass panel. I'm not sure what # they are. I'm looking for
washers that do not extend much past the diameter of the attaching screw.
Standard washers are to wide and look funny on the panel.
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Pitot Current Draw |
| From: | "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com> |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote....
We need to define "efficient". If this means highest
reliability and minimum parts count, then a series resistor
can be used to reduce energy dissipated in the tube
(and total energy consumed by the system) but even tho
the tube heat is reduced, the resistor dumps energy too.
The most efficient electrically is a switchmode step-down
converter that can supply power to the pitot heater at any
voltage while limiting losses in the heat controller to
20% or so of total power. But this is a busy piece of
electronics that adds parts count to the system but when
operating properly, offers the lowest risk for noise
problems while offering complete adjustability of the
low power mode.
You can also duty cycle switch the tube and while this
offers a VERY efficient means of controlling energy, it
puts repetitive pulses of current on the bus that
WILL generate considerable noise (I'm working a similar
problem right now on a $14M$ airplane that has a
$50K$ coffee maker installed on it).
Help us understand your primary goal. Certainly, energized
pitot tubes offer considerable hazard on the ground. How
about a switch that keeps the tube off unless RPM is over
1000 rpm? How about an airspeed switch? Both of these
systems could be fitted with warning lights that show a
de-energized pitot heater when the pitot heat switch is ON.
The primary goal is to reduce power load of the pitot during all
operating phases, as the pitot runs unnecessarily hot (though I don't
know exactly what temp it should run at, my belief is branding iron hot
is more then necessary for a GA aircraft that is not ice equipped). Of
particular importance, should I have an electrical generation failure
and am in 'cold clouds', I prefer to leave the pitot as long as possible
to preclude loss of AS indication. The duration of this operation,
limited by battery life, will be directly, and primarily, affected by
the draw of the pitot heater. In fact, the 15amp draw is about equal to
everything else that needs to run. The goal is to reduce the effective
draw of the pitot to 7 amps, or less, either on a continuous basis or as
an average of the on/off cycle. A secondary goal is not to screw up
radios and reliability.
Help us understand your design goals. Using a 28v tube
is an option too. Given the temperature coefficient
for the heaters, running a tube at 1/2 voltage still
produces more than 1/4 rated power. But keep in mind that
there is a thermal resistance component between a heater
and the pitot tube's surface. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Pitot_Heater_R_Plot.pdf
The data point at 9.85 amps was taken while the surface
of the tube was being held at 0C in an ice bath. These
are the worst case conditions for icing but note that
while the surface was at 0C, the heater itself was running
at about 140C! See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Pitot_tube_temps_at_altitude
.pdf
This data was collected on a flight to 41K feet. Note that
at cruise, the pitot tube's SURFACE temperature (LT4) was
running over 100C at 200Kts IAS and RAT of -35C. This was
the same tube plotted in the earlier graph.
In the Velocity, I intended to neither fly in an ice bath, or at 41K
feet--though I get your points :-).
Just be wary of advice supported by anecdotal experiences.
The "numbers" that describe the tube's ability to shed
ice are locked into the physics and not all tubes are the
same. Attempts to control the tube's power consumption
increases parts count and raises needs for additional
monitoring to let you know when the control system has
failed so that you can bypass it and go to full power.
Some power control schemes have system integration issues
to consider as well. Be wary too of any notions that
"a small portion" of design power is a useful thing to
design into your system.
Let's consider your design goals. Exactly why and under what
conditions do you want to moderate pitot tube performance?
During all phases of ground and flight operations. In short, I wish the
pitot (off a warbird) was a 28v unit that was run at 12v--I suspect that
would be about right for reduced pitot heat and current draw.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aux Altenator switching. |
>
>Bob,
>Does your comment "There is no danger to any equipment on the airplane by
>having both alternators on at the same time. "
> Does this mean if I add a John Deere 20a and run at the same time as my
> Rotax 18 Amp unit that I can get 38 amps max case? Any down side to doing this?
There's a difference between risks for damage and performance as
shared suppliers of loads to the system. The problem is getting
respective voltage regulators of two engine driven power sources
to appropriately share total loads based on their respective
capabilities.
I've designed such regulators but the technology I've used
is not compatible with PM alternators. It would take a start
from scratch effort to get the proportionate paralleling
performance that's desired when running two power sources.
Yes, you can run two alternators and count on their added
capacities for total engine driven power . . . but without
hardware specific to making them share loads, you'll find
yourself fiddling with the regulation setpoints a lot.
If you can bolt a 20A PM alternator to your engine, why
not a 40A ND alternator with some REAL capacity to run
the whole airplane and save the smaller alternator for backup
a-la Z-13/8?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Pitot Current Draw |
| From: | "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com> |
But wouldn't you still be wasting electrical power as heat on the
resistor? If the overall goal is to reduce power consumption, IE make
the battery last longer, you would not want additional resistance. Or am
I all backwards?
I went with the Gretz Pitot, because it stays at a constant lower temp
and power cycles itself to maintain that temp, so overall I am using
less power, rather than just dumping it as heat.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt
Prather
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 11:22 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw
Dan,
I believe the pitot heating element is a simple resistor. Adding series
resistance in line with the heating element will indeed LOWER the
current
through the circuit, as well as lowering the voltage drop across the
pitot
element. I am pretty sure the pitot heater is not a constant power
device
(which is what I think you were describing).
Regards,
Matt-
> Keith
> I think you have your assumptions are not correct. While your
> transposition of the formula E=I*R is correct, The formula for Power
> consumption is PIE or P=I*E, so if you have half the volts, the amps
> will double to maintain the same wattage. So if you are counting on
the
> actual current draw to go down it will not in this case, in fact it
will
> double to keep the same heat. Now that is not to say you can not limit
> the draw and run the pitot colder, but then that would negate having a
> pitot.
> Am I missing something?
> Dan
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Keith
> Hallsten
> Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 10:36 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw
>
>
> Chuck,
>
> I mounted a 28v "Known Ice" pitot on the nose of my Velocity. Since I
> have a 14 volt electrical system, its power consumption will be
reduced
> by a factor of 4 (power = V * V / R). I figure that is sufficient for
> my purposes, because a Velocity is NOT a "Known Ice" type of airframe.
> If I should find enough ice to overwhelm my "lightweight" pitot
heating
> system, I have bigger problems than the pitot. I'm not flying yet,
but
> that's my position for now.
>
> Actually, now that we all have GPS available to us, loss of pitot is
not
> as critical as it used to be. With a fat margin to allow for wind,
> flying by groundspeed is generally a fair approximation.
>
> Regards,
>
> Keith Hallsten
>
>
> Subject: RE: Pitot Current Draw
> From: Chuck Jensen (cjensen(at)dts9000.com
>
=8984A39879F2F5418251CBEEC9C689B32870D7(at)lucky.dts.local> )
> Date: Mon Dec 04 - 12:06 PM
> Wow, I must be hard-of-speaking (or writing). I concede that flying
>
> into icing when not so equipped is not a good idea, but if a person
>
> flies IFR in the winter most anywhere in the continental US, sooner or
>
> later, they'll pick up some ice. Even if my wings start looking like
>
> something that should be used to cool a gin and tonic, I don't want to
>
> lose air speed indication. Granted, I may not know what my new stall
>
> speed is, but I would like to know WHAT my speed is...and I can't do
>
> that with a pitot full of ice.
>
> So, the question on the table is still the same, is there a way off
>
> 'turning down the heat' and reducing current draw?
>
> Chuck Jensen
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | DIY Starter Adapter for Lycoming |
Last week sometime someone mentioned an article for fabricating
an adapter that bolts an automotive starter to a Lycoming. I've
captured and .pdf'ed the article for easier downloading and
printing. This is a nice piece of work and worthy of consideration
if you're interested in such things.
http://aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Starters/Lycoming_Starter_Adapter.pdf
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Pitot Current Draw |
| From: | "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com> |
I think it is better described like this, you double the resistance,
half the current is felt on each device, but the power drop across the
circuit is still the same, IE the pitot only gets half as hot and the
resistor is getting the other current, and no net gain or loss on
wattage consumption.
Correct?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Ernest Christley
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw
Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
> Keith
> I think you have your assumptions are not correct. While your
> transposition of the formula E=I*R is correct, The formula for Power
> consumption is PIE or P=I*E, so if you have half the volts, the amps
> will double to maintain the same wattage. So if you are counting on
> the actual current draw to go down it will not in this case, in fact
> it will double to keep the same heat. Now that is not to say you can
> not limit the draw and run the pitot colder, but then that would
> negate having a pitot.
> Am I missing something?
> Dan
Yes. You're missing http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-ohm.htm
I keep a copy of that taped to the inside of my electronics toolbox's
lid.
You've got 12V (actually 13.4). Double the resistance, you halve the
current (I=V/R). Halving the current will also cut the power in half
(P=V*I), decreasing the heater effectiveness as you state; but the
original problem was the builder willing to settle for a drop in
effectiveness in exchange for extended battery life.
--
,|"|"|, Ernest Christley |
----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder |
o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Pitot Current Draw |
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote....
>
> We need to define "efficient". If this means highest
> reliability and minimum parts count, then a series resistor
> can be used to reduce energy dissipated in the tube
> (and total energy consumed by the system) but even tho
> the tube heat is reduced, the resistor dumps energy too.
>The primary goal is to reduce power load of the pitot during all
>operating phases, as the pitot runs unnecessarily hot (though I don't
>know exactly what temp it should run at, my belief is branding iron hot
>is more then necessary for a GA aircraft that is not ice equipped). Of
>particular importance, should I have an electrical generation failure
>and am in 'cold clouds', I prefer to leave the pitot as long as possible
>to preclude loss of AS indication. The duration of this operation,
>limited by battery life, will be directly, and primarily, affected by
>the draw of the pitot heater. In fact, the 15amp draw is about equal to
>everything else that needs to run. The goal is to reduce the effective
>draw of the pitot to 7 amps, or less, either on a continuous basis or as
>an average of the on/off cycle. A secondary goal is not to screw up
>radios and reliability.
Okay, get an adjustable power supply good for 7 amps or more.
Hook it to your pitot tube and adjust the voltage for 7A of current
draw. This probably won't be at 1/2 your normal system voltage but
something a bit lower. Wait for things to settle out as the
tube needs some time to arrive at a new temperature and load.
Once the new voltage is determined, calculate the value of
resistance needed to supply this new voltage assuming a 14v
bus.
Value of R = (14 - NewVolts)/7
Your resistor will dissipate something on the order of 50
watts and the needed resistance will be on the order of
1 ohm. I'd recommend you get a 2.0 ohm, 100W adjustable
resistor like an AVT100-2.0 found at:
http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T063/1403.pdf
During the first opportunity to do some in-flight measurements,
I'd monitor the voltage across the pitot tube in flight
to see how much effect that slip stream air flow
affects power drawn by the tube. If you see a need to
increase the voltage, you can always adjust the resistor
to some new value.
In fact, you may want to install a 225w resistor. The
100 ohm resistor has a current rating of I^2*R=100
or 7A. This means that if you need to increase the
operating current above 7A, you'll overload the 100W
resistor.
A 225w resistor has a current rating of about 11
amps and would be most likely to cover all the bases
for your final adjustment setpoint.
These resistors are on ceramic tubes and relatively
robust as mounted when you use the brackets that come
with the resistor. Resist the urge to mount these
devices on heavy and/or rigid structure that might
put strong bending forces on the tube.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Pitot Current Draw |
>
>
>But wouldn't you still be wasting electrical power as heat on the
>resistor? If the overall goal is to reduce power consumption, IE make
>the battery last longer, you would not want additional resistance. Or am
>I all backwards?
>I went with the Gretz Pitot, because it stays at a constant lower temp
>and power cycles itself to maintain that temp, so overall I am using
>less power, rather than just dumping it as heat.
Yes, the resistor gets hot too but TOTAL energy is down. Assume
a 1 ohm operating resistance for a pitot tube. 1 ohm produces a
current draw of 14A for a total wattage of 196 watts. Now put
a 1 ohm resistor in series with the pitot tube. Current drops
by half to 7A for a TOTAL wattage of 98 watts. Half this wattage
will be dissipated by the pitot tube, the other half in the
resistor.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Pitot Current Draw |
Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
>
>But wouldn't you still be wasting electrical power as heat on the
>resistor?
>
Yes.
>If the overall goal is to reduce power consumption, IE make
>the battery last longer, you would not want additional resistance. Or am
>I all backwards?
>
>
This setup would only work if you arranged for the pitot tube to be the
radiator for the resistor. If you stick the resistor at the switch,
then you haven't gained anything (unless maybe you were also needing a
hand warmer).
>I went with the Gretz Pitot, because it stays at a constant lower temp
>and power cycles itself to maintain that temp, so overall I am using
>less power, rather than just dumping it as heat.
>Dan
>
>
Back to the original question, I just remember Eric posting a howto on
how to use some temperature gradient resistors he has for sale to
moderate pitot heat current.
--
,|"|"|, Ernest Christley |
----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder |
o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Pitot Current Draw |
>
>
>I think it is better described like this, you double the resistance,
>half the current is felt on each device, but the power drop across the
>circuit is still the same, IE the pitot only gets half as hot and the
>resistor is getting the other current, and no net gain or loss on
>wattage consumption.
>Correct?
no . . . at 1/2 current each device gets 1/4 the original
power dissipation because votlage across each device is
also down by 1/2.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Pitot Current Draw |
| From: | "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com> |
Great example, now I better understand.
THX
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 2:36 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw
>
>
>But wouldn't you still be wasting electrical power as heat on the
>resistor? If the overall goal is to reduce power consumption, IE make
>the battery last longer, you would not want additional resistance. Or
am
>I all backwards?
>I went with the Gretz Pitot, because it stays at a constant lower temp
>and power cycles itself to maintain that temp, so overall I am using
>less power, rather than just dumping it as heat.
Yes, the resistor gets hot too but TOTAL energy is down. Assume
a 1 ohm operating resistance for a pitot tube. 1 ohm produces a
current draw of 14A for a total wattage of 196 watts. Now put
a 1 ohm resistor in series with the pitot tube. Current drops
by half to 7A for a TOTAL wattage of 98 watts. Half this wattage
will be dissipated by the pitot tube, the other half in the
resistor.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aux Altenator switching. |
Yes, the small ND sure has merits and probably had the same issues as
any add on alternator for the Rotax. I wont need 40a but 25 or 30
would be nice to simplify my electrical system. Then the Rotax
marginal unit would just be a backup.
Thanks for your input, Paul
===================
At 10:39 AM 12/5/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>Bob,
>>Does your comment "There is no danger to any equipment on the airplane by
>>having both alternators on at the same time. "
>> Does this mean if I add a John Deere 20a and run at the same time
>> as my Rotax 18 Amp unit that I can get 38 amps max case? Any down
>> side to doing this?
>
> There's a difference between risks for damage and performance as
> shared suppliers of loads to the system. The problem is getting
> respective voltage regulators of two engine driven power sources
> to appropriately share total loads based on their respective
> capabilities.
>
> I've designed such regulators but the technology I've used
> is not compatible with PM alternators. It would take a start
> from scratch effort to get the proportionate paralleling
> performance that's desired when running two power sources.
>
> Yes, you can run two alternators and count on their added
> capacities for total engine driven power . . . but without
> hardware specific to making them share loads, you'll find
> yourself fiddling with the regulation setpoints a lot.
>
> If you can bolt a 20A PM alternator to your engine, why
> not a 40A ND alternator with some REAL capacity to run
> the whole airplane and save the smaller alternator for backup
> a-la Z-13/8?
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aux Altenator switching. |
>
>Yes, the small ND sure has merits and probably had the same issues as any
>add on alternator for the Rotax. I wont need 40a but 25 or 30 would be
>nice to simplify my electrical system. Then the Rotax marginal unit would
>just be a backup.
Keep in mind that your alternator has two functions: (1) carry the
max running load for equipment on board and (2) recharge the battery.
(Battery charging energy) = (alternator energy) - (running loads).
Just because your alternator is 'oversized' is not necessarily a
bad or even undesirable thing. If you had a hard time getting the
engine started or want to go flying after extended ground maintenance
ops from the battery, then being able to reload the battery quickly
with just your alternator output is a pretty nifty thing.
What's the weight difference? A 40A ND alternator compared to
the JD PM alternator + rectifier/regulator? I'll bet it's about
a wash and for my money, I'd take the 40A ND over a 20A JD
machine any day.
The SD-8 at 3.5 pounds and its compatibility with the AND20000
pad on the back of the engine is the recipe for success . . . but
I've never understood the perceived allure for the larger PM
alternators as compared to the smaller wound-field devices.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Aural warning box |
I just took delivery of a new Trike with an EIS. It has one warning light
located so far out of my line of sight I'm thinking it will be virtually
worthless. Has anyone got any ideas, or better yet built something that
provides an aural warning through the intercom system? I'm thinking of
something more than just a warning horn.
And, as long as I'm here, the trike is powered by an HKS700E 4 stroke engine
that has dual electronic ignitions. According to the manual, and experience
in the field, the ignition systems drop off line when input power drops
below 10 volts. I'd like to add an emergency backup battery for the ignition
system and electric fuel boost pump only. What I'd like is a device that
seamlessly cuts in the backup and warns me so I can get down. A Powersonic
PS 1270 for a battery looks like a good fit, but doesn't allow enough for a
latching relay, too. Is there a circuit that will do what I want with
minimal current draw, too?
Have the moon, wanting the stars, too,
Rick
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aural warning box |
>I just took delivery of a new Trike with an EIS. It has one warning light
>located so far out of my line of sight I'm thinking it will be virtually
>worthless. Has anyone got any ideas, or better yet built something that
>provides an aural warning through the intercom system? I'm thinking of
>something more than just a warning horn.
>And, as long as I'm here, the trike is powered by an HKS700E 4 stroke
>engine that has dual electronic ignitions. According to the manual, and
>experience in the field, the ignition systems drop off line when input
>power drops below 10 volts. I'd like to add an emergency backup battery
>for the ignition system and electric fuel boost pump only. What I'd like
>is a device that seamlessly cuts in the backup and warns me so I can get
>down. A Powersonic PS 1270 for a battery looks like a good fit, but
>doesn't allow enough for a latching relay, too. Is there a circuit that
>will do what I want with minimal current draw, too?
How big is your existing battery. How much current does
the ignition system draw? What kind of alternator and
regulator is installed?
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aux Altenator switching. |
Weight difference? The JD 20 amp PM is about 2 lb lighter than the 40
amp ND. That could rise to about 2.5 lb if one adds a OV contactor to
the ND. The new ND was cheaper than the JD + regulator though for me.
Theoretically the ND should have a cleaner (less noise) output although
that made no noticeable difference for my system.
I actually agree with Bob's post but I did not have an accessory pad for
a SD-8 and chose a JD rather than a 40 amp ND as a second alternator for
OV considerations as well as the 2.5 lb saving. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I
had more confidence that a small relay would interupt the 20 amp ac
output than I have that a cheap contactor will interupt the 40 amp dc
output. The expensive OV contactor would have cost me more than an ND
alternator and replacing/servicing it would have been more difficult.
Also I prefer not to have excessively large alternators since a small
alternator that is running full on with a failed regulator will cause
the voltage to rise slower than a large unit and it will take longer to
"cook" a battery since less amps are available. With OVM protection most
of that wouldn't matter. However I have an electrically dependant
engine. Many years ago I was in a position of having to cycle a
generator on and off to get out of clouds largely based on how bad the
battery smelled between cycles. As it boiled and melted, the liquid
electrolyte battery absorbed a lot more excess energy than my RG
batteries will. Since there was no low or high voltage warning, the
smell from the battery was the first indication of a problem back then.
Anyway with the JD I know that even worst case I can fairly easilly load
the thing to capacity and manually keep the voltage nominal and that was
attractive to me.
Ken
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>> Yes, the small ND sure has merits and probably had the same issues as
>> any add on alternator for the Rotax. I wont need 40a but 25 or 30
>> would be nice to simplify my electrical system. Then the Rotax
>> marginal unit would just be a backup.
>
>
> Keep in mind that your alternator has two functions: (1) carry the
> max running load for equipment on board and (2) recharge the battery.
> (Battery charging energy) = (alternator energy) - (running loads).
> Just because your alternator is 'oversized' is not necessarily a
> bad or even undesirable thing. If you had a hard time getting the
> engine started or want to go flying after extended ground maintenance
> ops from the battery, then being able to reload the battery quickly
> with just your alternator output is a pretty nifty thing.
>
> What's the weight difference? A 40A ND alternator compared to
> the JD PM alternator + rectifier/regulator? I'll bet it's about
> a wash and for my money, I'd take the 40A ND over a 20A JD
> machine any day.
>
> The SD-8 at 3.5 pounds and its compatibility with the AND20000
> pad on the back of the engine is the recipe for success . . . but
> I've never understood the perceived allure for the larger PM
> alternators as compared to the smaller wound-field devices.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aural warning box |
Rick
The aural warning part should be easy as I believe all the GRT EIS units
have that feature. In fact I believe mine is a 12 volt square wave
output tone that goes on and off with the warning light. It required
considerable reducing to feed it into the intercom and is pretty loud
even with a 470k resistor between it and my intercom input. Even with a
good light location, it is always the intercom tone that gets my
immediate attention.
Ken
Richard Girard wrote:
> I just took delivery of a new Trike with an EIS. It has one warning
> light located so far out of my line of sight I'm thinking it will be
> virtually worthless. Has anyone got any ideas, or better yet built
> something that provides an aural warning through the intercom system?
> I'm thinking of something more than just a warning horn.
> And, as long as I'm here, the trike is powered by an HKS700E 4 stroke
> engine that has dual electronic ignitions. According to the manual,
> and experience in the field, the ignition systems drop off line when
> input power drops below 10 volts. I'd like to add an emergency backup
> battery for the ignition system and electric fuel boost pump only.
> What I'd like is a device that seamlessly cuts in the backup and warns
> me so I can get down. A Powersonic PS 1270 for a battery looks like a
> good fit, but doesn't allow enough for a latching relay, too. Is there
> a circuit that will do what I want with minimal current draw, too?
>
> Have the moon, wanting the stars, too,
> Rick
>
> --
> Rick Girard
> "Ya'll drop on in"
> takes on a whole new meaning
> when you live at the airport.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Miles" <terrence_miles(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | In line fuses - when to use |
Hi Bob,
I went to your seminar back about two years ago now at Wicks. I am actively
wiring a Velocity. This is not a theory-like query, I have the wire on the
table and trying to make my drawings work!! Here's the situation:
Due to my size at 150 lbs and the pusher widedeck IO540 hanging off the
end...I will clearly need some ballast in the nose. My decision was a 2nd
battery. I will have two 55 amp hour Optima batteries.
Here's the basic structure:
BATTERY ONE
Thru a dedicated 700 1-2 I will connect the BATT DC1 solenoid output to the
main bus. I will wire the alternator output back to the ship's side of that
same battery contactor to be my distribution line and as a charge wire.
(This same wire will carry the current limiter.)
BATTERY TWO
Thru a dedicated 700 1-2 I will deploy the BATT DC2 solenoid output via an
unfused #8 awg as a dedicated distribution wire to the avionic/critical bus.
There will be no hard wiring between alternator output and my DC2 system
until I close the link between main and avionics busses. I will not wire
the alternator output back to the DC2 battery. The DC2-to-alternator link
will only come thru the commonly accepted main-to-avionics diode logic.
Only after the engine is started will I put the alternator on line, and only
after that will I tie the isolated buses and batteries together thru the
Main to Avionic link. So my question is about when I need in-line current
limiters. Given this design, and with only one alternator, I only need one
in-line current limiter, right? Is it acceptable for me NOT to fuse my
DC2-to-Avionics distribution wire? I will of course fuse all the users
downstream of that.
Thanks for the ear.and the help
Terry Miles
Velocity XL-RG-5
Wiring
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
Cleones wrote:
>
> At 05:27 PM 12/2/2006, you wrote:
>
>>
>> Cleones wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi Bob, In the John Deere alternator and regulator frequently
>>> talked about here is the rectifier in the regulator?
>>
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>>> And, Is the alternator generating 3 phase AC ?
>>
>>
>> No. It is single phase AC. There are only two wires coming out of it.
>>
>>> And, about what voltage is the output of the alternator.
>>
>>
>> It will go up to about 200 volts open circuit but when loaded it will
>> be in the vicinity of 15 volts depending on how you measure it.
>>
>>> Also, since we know that the # 5 terminal must be connected to
>>> voltage or the alternator doesn't work. I have tried this and it is
>>> true. Then what is the circuit like? And would it be a good place
>>> to connect the overvoltage crowbar to? Enjoyed your lectures at
>>> Bloomington recently. Cleone
>>
>>
>> I interupt the wires into the regulator. In the past Bob has said
>> that either into or out of the regulator will do the job but I wanted
>> to be able to cut power to the regulator in case it was overheating
>> or internally shorted.
>
>
>> The regulator uses the battery connection to turn itself on and to
>> sense the battery voltage so that it can regulate to 14.4 volts
>> nominal output.
>>
>> Ken
>
>
> Ken,
>
>> Thanks. Let me consider this. So.. doesn't this indicate
>> using a NO relay? This circuit might be carring very high current at
>> the time the relay opened. Hopefully the contacts would not be
>> welded closed and the spinning alternator would not be delivering
>> current to the regulator and we would achieve the desired results. I
>> don't know if an attempt to fuse the AC output at a little more than
>> the rated current of the alternator is called for or not. This might
>> not be advisable because it might cause the charging to be shut down
>> unnecesarily. Do you agree with my thoughts? Also regarding the # 5
>> connection of the regulator. I started the engine and made sure the
>> alternator was working with the wire connected and then redid this
>> with the wire off. The first time the voltage was about 14 volts and
>> the second time it was just a little over 12. Thanks again.
>
> Cleone
Cleone
Yes I use a NO relay. My alternator switch applies power to the
"Battery" connection on the regulator and to the OVM module and it
closes the NO relay. Your voltage readings are indeed what I would
expect to see.
Fusing the output of an alternator won't provide Over Voltage
protection. It is done to simply to protect the wire from battery
current if the alternator should short out. So in this case my fuse or
circuit breaker is between the battery and the regulator to protect the
wire from overheating because of battery supplied current if there is a
short in the regulator or the alternator. I think I had a 30 amp CB on
hand and used that.
I hope I'm not muddying this for you. My wires from the alternator to
the regulator are sized at 12 awg to handle the 20 amp max output so
they are not at risk from the alternator if the regulator shorts.
Putting the OV relay in those ac wires would provide a means of
disconnecting the supply to the regulator though which is what I did.
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aural warning box |
Bob, Good morning. The alternator is a PM type that puts out 210 watts above
4000 RPM. The regulator is a zener diode unit supplied with the engine. The
only information I can find on current draw for the ignition is that the
CDI's require 3 amp fuses. The battery is an 18ah AGM type.
I searched the online manuals for any revisions to the ones supplied with
the engine and this is all the info I can find.
Rick
On 12/6/06, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
>
>
> >I just took delivery of a new Trike with an EIS. It has one warning light
> >located so far out of my line of sight I'm thinking it will be virtually
> >worthless. Has anyone got any ideas, or better yet built something that
> >provides an aural warning through the intercom system? I'm thinking of
> >something more than just a warning horn.
> >And, as long as I'm here, the trike is powered by an HKS700E 4 stroke
> >engine that has dual electronic ignitions. According to the manual, and
> >experience in the field, the ignition systems drop off line when input
> >power drops below 10 volts. I'd like to add an emergency backup battery
> >for the ignition system and electric fuel boost pump only. What I'd like
> >is a device that seamlessly cuts in the backup and warns me so I can get
> >down. A Powersonic PS 1270 for a battery looks like a good fit, but
> >doesn't allow enough for a latching relay, too. Is there a circuit that
> >will do what I want with minimal current draw, too?
>
> How big is your existing battery. How much current does
> the ignition system draw? What kind of alternator and
> regulator is installed?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aux Altenator switching. |
| From: | <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US> |
With regard to installing an additional charging devise on a Rotax 91X
four stroke, the vacuum pad spins slower than a Lyc. or Cont.
I know of no alternator larger than the SD20S that will fit on the vacuum
pad, with the SD20S being of the very best quality. I forget the exact
output of the SD20S using a LR3C (that eats a bit of power compared to a
switcher) but at cruise ~ 18 amps sounds correct on a 12 volt system.
You need the short nose SD20S (not SD20) to fit the Rotax. If you look on
B+Cs website under Cessna 210 for the SD20S. The output is identical to
the SD20, just the shorter nose. Actual it is a beautiful custom casting
drive side half of the alternator, the drive coupling is awful nice as
well.
If anyone knows of a 40 amp alternator that will put out above 30 amps on
a Rotax vacuum, I am all ears.
Some have taken a 40 amp alternator and drive it direct off the crankshaft
with a flex coupling and bracket it off the engine mount.
A bit off topic but semi pertinent:
Keep your Ducati Rotax regulator as cool as you can
If you ask more than 12 amps continuous from the Rotax generator the
regulator will fail in short order. If you keep changing regulators the
windings supposedly fail on the generator
SD20S with a LR3C is probably more robust at 18 amps than the supposedly
18 or 20 amp internal generator is at 12 amps.
I plan to limit continuous of the SD20S to ~15 amps
I forget exact set point of Ducati, think 13.6 or 13.7 volts, the LR3C
comes with ~14.4 but is adjustable. If you have both chargers on line, the
SD20S will do for the most part most of the work if setpoint is above the
Rotax generator. At less than cruise RPM the SD20S will not put out 18
amps, at taxi RPM not even close, I am not flying yet, but I believe that
the Rotax generator will help out a little at this time if the SD20S is
slumping voltage down to Ducati setpoint.
If you do use a SD20S, make sure you use one vacuum pad gasket, but be
sure to measure that the male driven spline on the SD20S is not bottomed
inside the female drive spline. (No big deal if it is, a few strokes on
the plastic male spline with a file rectifies (the fit) on the alternator!
Perhaps there is .750" of engagement, I needed to remove on my 914 .070",
not even up to the edge of the chamfer)
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Bradburry <bbradburry(at)allvantage.com> |
| Subject: | AEC9005-301-1A Module |
Bob,
I intended to set my plane up following the Z-19 drawing. It appears
that the Over/under voltage monitor module is no longer available. I
can find no link to the instructions for building one?? Are the boards
you were selling still available or are they gone?
How should I reconfigure the Aux battery switch if the "auto" capability
is no longer available?
Thanks for your excellent support and assistance for the OBAM group.
I notice that most of your daily responses start at around 3:00-3:30
AM!!! When,(if??) do you sleep??!!
Bill B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ing. Gottfried Komaier" <gottfried.komaier(at)gmx.net> |
| Subject: | AEC9005-301-1A Module |
Bill,
if you are searching only for an Over/Under Voltage Sensor: "BC207-1" is
what you will need . Have a look at:
www.bandcspecialty.com/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?6X358218
Gottfried
Vienna/Austria
-----Ursprngliche Nachricht-----
Von: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Bill
Bradburry
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 06. Dezember 2006 20:46
An: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Betreff: AeroElectric-List: AEC9005-301-1A Module
-->
Bob,
I intended to set my plane up following the Z-19 drawing. It appears that
the Over/under voltage monitor module is no longer available. I
can find no link to the instructions for building one?? Are the boards
you were selling still available or are they gone?
How should I reconfigure the Aux battery switch if the "auto" capability is
no longer available?
Thanks for your excellent support and assistance for the OBAM group.
I notice that most of your daily responses start at around 3:00-3:30 AM!!!
When,(if??) do you sleep??!!
Bill B
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Rotax Aux Altenator switching. |
| From: | James H Nelson <rv9jim(at)juno.com> |
Hi Ron
Yup! I'm the origional designer and buillder of the 40A
alternator off the crankshaft. The Rotax series engine is just not
capable of anything approaching what we want for electrical power. We
are all electrical hogs in our wants on the panel. I'm guilty as I now
have a Lycosoris with a 60A alternator and a back up of 8A on the vac.
pad. on my new build. We just have to reconcile our "needs" with what we
"want". Its the same as my new build for the emergency or just to get by
power source of 8A. What do you not "need". Part of the thoughts are
what will you need that requires so much power. I went with LED running
lights to reduce the power req. for night flight. Plus, landing lights
are needed for only a short time and thus can run off the battery for the
short time in the pattern. The game for Rotax drivers is to minimise the
electrical loads and still get the stuff you really "need" and have your
"AA" batterys for back up for the hand held transmitter and GPS. What
else do you really need? I know- just look at my new panel and see how
the pot is calling the kettle black! But I've been there with my Europa
and I used the 40A alt and used about 18 to 20 but it was because of the
strobe light system requirements. It would really hog the power when
charging the capacitors for the next pulse. The real key would be a
maker of strobes that used less power.
Jim Nelson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
Chuck,
You have just experienced the main thing I dislike about this forum. When
you ask for advice or assistance, you will commonly get critique on why you
should not do what it is you want to do. It takes several attempts at explaining
that you don't care about opinions - you simply want assistance. For example,
I've asked how to sample volts and amps in multiple places in my electrical
system. I got "you don't need to know that info while you're flying."
Regardless, I want to be able to do that so how can I do it? Answer: since I don't
think you should do that I'm not going to tell you how to do it.
As you've discovered, getting an answer can be very frustrating.
Still, I've learned a lot about electrical stuff here and I continue to
learn. So, I still find the forum of value.
I wish I had the answer for you - I would provide it. But, I don't.
Hopefully, you will get an acceptable answer.
Stan Sutterfield
Okay, I appreciate everyone holding forth that it's stupid to fly in
ice....I'm not that dumb, I only look it. However, the question stands,
how does one knock down the heat and current draw. Richard mentioned a
'strut switch'....whoever that is. Can someone enlighten us
non-electrical types. What I'm concerned about is being in the clouds,
close to freezing and loose electrical--I'd just as soon not have to
turn off the pitot heat because it's sucking the battery dry in short
order; I'd rather it be in long order.
Chuck Jensen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
Ernest,
Please explain what you mean by a cockpit referenced backup altimeter. I
don't think I've ever heard of any thing like that. And how would it help keep
you from hitting the ground?
Maybe you're referring to alternate static air. But the question wasn't on
heating the static port - it was on losing pitot ram air to ice.
Personally, I'll take the heated pitot.
Stan Sutterfield
A cockpit referenced backup altimeter would seem to give the best bang for
the $
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
Bret,
Chuck is not suggesting he would continue flying in IMC in icing conditions.
In fact, he hasn't suggested he would even let himself get into that
situation. He simply wants to know how to wire his airplane to accomplish two
pitot
heat settings - low and high.
I surmise from your comments, since you said "icing or not" that you believe
the loss of main alternator in IMC with the potential for icing (less than 10
degrees Celsius) is not an emergency situation. I would classify that as a
emergency, whether I'm in a C-172 or a whiz-bang OBAM aircraft.
Stan Sutterfield
As for me, icing or not, if I lose my main alternator, I would
switch on Endurance mode (which is only 8 amps...thus, no pitot) and land
that puppy ASAP. This is not an emergent situation. Not so with your stock
Cessna.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike" <mlas(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
The only way I can answer this question is to tell a story. First,
flying in the ice is something many pilot do every year and sometimes
often. If you know what you=92re doing and are prepared then the risks
are minimal. I have been flying in ice with airplanes that are able to
handle it for better then 20 years. It=92s not like flying on a sunny
day. But once you get use to it and prepare for it, it=92s not that big
of a deal. A few words of advice, no two icing days are the same. Only
experience will help you here. My personal feeling on ice in piston
powered planes, you don=92t have many out when the weather gets bad.
When
in ice greater then light find a place to land ASAP.
As for you electric question; First the easy answer is to put a bigger
battery in the airplane. Second, why would you think that using less
power for pitot heat is going to be any better then turning the pitot
heat off all together? Unless you run a thermal equation on the speed,
temperature, and heat (layman=92s terms) required to guarantee the
anti-ice properties needed, then everything your doing is just a big
guess anyway. And I guessing that since I have to go to the book to do
said equation thoroughly, I would guess the electrical formula by
comparison would be a piece of cake. I know this is not what you want
to hear but the facts are the facts. The reason that the pitot uses so
much power (in general) is that is what it takes to keep ice off the
probe in 100% humidity at temperatures < 10dec C.
Sorry for the poor and somewhat sarcastic answer, but I think Chuck
brought it out in me.
Regards,
Mike Larkin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Speedy11(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 6:57 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw
Chuck,
You have just experienced the main thing I dislike about this forum.
When you ask for advice or assistance, you will commonly get critique on
why you should not do what it is you want to do. It takes several
attempts at explaining that you don't care about opinions - you simply
want assistance. For example, I've asked how to sample volts and amps
in multiple places in my electrical system. I got "you don't need to
know that info while you're flying." Regardless, I want to be able to
do that so how can I do it? Answer: since I don't think you should do
that I'm not going to tell you how to do it.
As you've discovered, getting an answer can be very frustrating.
Still, I've learned a lot about electrical stuff here and I continue to
learn. So, I still find the forum of value.
I wish I had the answer for you - I would provide it. But, I don't.
Hopefully, you will get an acceptable answer.
Stan Sutterfield
Okay, I appreciate everyone holding forth that it's stupid to fly in
ice....I'm not that dumb, I only look it. However, the question stands,
how does one knock down the heat and current draw. Richard mentioned a
'strut switch'....whoever that is. Can someone enlighten us
non-electrical types. What I'm concerned about is being in the clouds,
close to freezing and loose electrical--I'd just as soon not have to
turn off the pitot heat because it's sucking the battery dry in short
order; I'd rather it be in long order.
Chuck Jensen
"http://www.aeroelectric.com"www.aeroelectric.com
"http://www.buildersbooks.com"www.buildersbooks.com
"http://www.kitlog.com"www.kitlog.com
"http://www.homebuilthelp.com"www.homebuilthelp.com
"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu
tion
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"http://www.matroni
cs.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
--
11/22/2006
--
11/22/2006
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matt & Jo" <archermj(at)swbell.net> |
| Subject: | Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid |
I have a Jabiru 3300 and have a 702-1 starter contactor from B&C.
Looking at Z-20, from aeroelectric, they are running the 4 AWG wire to
the starter solenoid. It looks like the "solenoid" supplied by Jabiru
is really just another contactor. It is wired and works the same as the
702-1 but with out the diode. If I hook it up as depicted in Z-20 all
I will be doing is to energize the coil on the Jabiru supplied solenoid
with the 4 AWG wire from the 702-1. It sure looks to me that all I will
be doing is putting two contactors in series. I am not sure of the
value in this. I am considering just leaving off the Jabiru solenoid
and connecting the 702-1 directly to the starter.
Is this smart or is there something I am missing?
Thanks
Matt
www.zodiacxl.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michel Creek" <mwcreek(at)frontiernet.net> |
Are GPS antennas generic so they can be hooked up to any receiver? A
friend of mine has a L1/L2 antenna manufactured by Sensor Systems and wants
to hook it up to a handheld Lowrance.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Here's an idea that may draw snickers, jeers, and possibly gasps of
horror. My sister (like lots of peoples' sisters) has a curling iron
heated by butane.. Why doesn't anyone have a pitot tube heated directly
by the combustion of a hydrocarbon (gasoline/jetA might be problematic
without a pump). It would be tremendously efficient compared to hauling
around a gigantic alternator. It would run for hours on a tiny amount of
fuel. It could be thermostatically controlled, and be amazingly light
weight.
I know, it's not an "electric" idea...
Matt-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rob Wright" <armywrights(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
For developing your own answer based upon your stated needs, I'll defer to
Bob N. and the other smart aeroelectric types. For an off-the-shelf
solution that may also fit your needs, have you looked at
http://www.gretzaero.com/ga1000.html?
Rob Wright
RV-10 with Gretz Aero
Fuselage
~snip~
The GA-1000 is Gretz Aero's totally new design of a heated Pitot tube. It is
molded from a very high-tech Polymer material that has nearly the same
thermal conductivity as
metal. This new design has electronics embedded in the Pitot tube. It also
comes with a small electronic control module that will mount close to the
Pitot tube in the wing. This electronic control module controls the heat of
the Pitot and provides information to the pilot regarding thermal and heater
performance of the Pitot tube. This information is presented by way of a
3/16 inch diameter multi-conductor cable that has a very small circuit board
with three LED's on it. This LED circuit board is already attached to the
cable. The LED circuit board is designed to be placed behind the panel and
allow the LED's to protrude through the panel at a convenient location to
the pilot.
The three LED's are: Green = circuits are working and temperature of Pitot
tube is well above freezing: Yellow = current is being provided to the
heater due to low temperature: Red = temperature is low at the Pitot tube
and needs heat. There will be times when one or two LED's will be lit. If no
LED's are lit, there is a problem with power getting to the Pitot tube.
The GA-1000 is great for small electrical generating systems in light
aircraft. The heater in the Pitot draws 7 Amps, and that is only when the
electronic control module calls for heat. The heater will cycle on and off
as needed to maintain the proper temperature. During the times when heat is
not needed or called for, the electronic control module draws less than .1
Amp.
The Gretz Aero GA-1000 heated Pitot tube comes complete with: GA-1000 heated
Pitot tube, electronic control module, LED circuit board and cable, screws
for Pitot tube to mounting bracket installation, mounting hardware for
mounting the electronic control module, and of course, complete
instructions. The complete weight of the entire kit is 397 grams or 14.0
oz.
The GA-1000 Pitot tube has a very sleek and modern shape that is pleasing to
the eye. It is very dark gray to black in color. If the builder feels the
need, it can be painted with automotive high temperature engine paint. This
is available at most auto parts stores. The GA-1000 will fit the standard
Gretz Aero Pitot Tube <http://www.gretzaero.com/mountbracket.html> Mounting
Bracket Kits.
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Speedy11(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 7:57 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw
Chuck,
You have just experienced the main thing I dislike about this forum. When
you ask for advice or assistance, you will commonly get critique on why you
should not do what it is you want to do. It takes several attempts at
explaining that you don't care about opinions - you simply want assistance.
For example, I've asked how to sample volts and amps in multiple places in
my electrical system. I got "you don't need to know that info while you're
flying." Regardless, I want to be able to do that so how can I do it?
Answer: since I don't think you should do that I'm not going to tell you how
to do it.
As you've discovered, getting an answer can be very frustrating.
Still, I've learned a lot about electrical stuff here and I continue to
learn. So, I still find the forum of value.
I wish I had the answer for you - I would provide it. But, I don't.
Hopefully, you will get an acceptable answer.
Stan Sutterfield
Okay, I appreciate everyone holding forth that it's stupid to fly in
ice....I'm not that dumb, I only look it. However, the question stands,
how does one knock down the heat and current draw. Richard mentioned a
'strut switch'....whoever that is. Can someone enlighten us
non-electrical types. What I'm concerned about is being in the clouds,
close to freezing and loose electrical--I'd just as soon not have to
turn off the pitot heat because it's sucking the battery dry in short
order; I'd rather it be in long order.
Chuck Jensen
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax Aux Altenator switching. |
| From: | <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US> |
Hello Jim
"The real key would be a maker of strobes that used less power."
I am using Kunzleman strobes with a combo head. The 2 strobes I think draw
2 amps, and the LED position draws not much.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AEC9005-301-1A Module |
>
>
>Bob,
>I intended to set my plane up following the Z-19 drawing. It appears that
>the Over/under voltage monitor module is no longer available. I can find
>no link to the instructions for building one?? Are the boards you were
>selling still available or are they gone?
>How should I reconfigure the Aux battery switch if the "auto" capability
>is no longer available?
I'm replacing the 9005 series products with a new
technology. You can get a pre-view at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf
There will be a version that offers the same functionality
as the old 9005-301-1 ECB from which the LVW/ABMM product was
assembled. However . . .
The 9011 as depicted offers TWO independent LV warning channels
that offers the same functionality as the 9005, just not
automatic. One LV channel is used to watch the main bus, the
other watches the aux battery bus. If the pilot fails to close
the aux battery switch after starting the engine, then only the
main bus warning light goes out.
The ADVANTAGE of this architecture and operating philosophy
is that a failed aux battery contactor can be spotted with the 9011
installed where it will go un-annunciated with the 9005.
The third output channel drives a latching relay suitable for
shutting down PM alternators, and older generators in an OV
condition. It can also be used on wound-field alternators.
I really didn't want to "step back" to the relay technology
but it's appeal is universal applicability to virtually
all engine driven power sources.
>Thanks for your excellent support and assistance for the OBAM group.
>
>I notice that most of your daily responses start at around 3:00-3:30
>AM!!! When,(if??) do you sleep??!!
You're welcome. The times posted for List messages is Pacific
time were the server is located. I'm generally up about 6
and check the e-mail first thing. I'm usually in bed by
midnight.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
>Ernest,
>Please explain what you mean by a cockpit referenced backup altimeter. I
>don't think I've ever heard of any thing like that. And how would it help
>keep you from hitting the ground?
>Maybe you're referring to alternate static air. But the question wasn't
>on heating the static port - it was on losing pitot ram air to ice.
"Cockpit referenced" is a specific term for "vented to
cockpit atmosphere" . . . which is what the vast majority
of alternate static sources do.
The piper Pacer and Tri-Pacer didn't have static systems.
The altimeter was simply mounted to the panel and vented
to cockpit as was any VSI and/or altitude encoders added
at later dates.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>Are GPS antennas generic so they can be hooked up to any receiver? A
>friend of mine has a L1/L2 antenna manufactured by Sensor Systems and
>wants to hook it up to a handheld Lowrance.
>
>
If it's an un-amplified antenna, it's interchangeable.
If an "active" antenna, there are no industry wide standards
for such antennas and there is risk that an antenna not
specifically designed to service your receiver will
work. That doesn't mean that there aren't a whole lot
of active antennas that will nicely interchange . . . only
that folks who build receivers would dearly love for
you to use their antenna and are not likely to give you
a list of other, equally suitable antennas.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
| From: | "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com> |
Mike,
If I was able to draw the sarcasm out of you, I'd had to see what a pro
could do! (:-)). Actually, I've done the calculations and am satisfied
of the results, even if not confirmed by empirical data. The current
pitot draws about 15 amps. By comparison, my older, but very adequate
(as in--never iced up) pitot drew 7 amps. While not on a first name
basis with any electrons, I assume that an amp is an amp and is
generally going to produce a certain amount of heat, which is apparently
adequate, based on empirical experience. So, if 7 amps was good enough
in the old pitot, I was thinkin' that 7 amps was probably good enough
for this pitot. I could hire a thermodynamist to confirm all this, but
I'll go out on a limb and employ common sense instead--it's cheaper and
often, just as accurate.
As to your suggestion of simply using a bigger battery, I didn't notice
any calculations showing how big and how many batteries I should have.
However, if by limiting heat output in the pitot, I cut my amperage in
half, I can calculate that the draw from my current battery will be 1/2
as much and last twice as long (but not for the full load, since the
pitot is only a fraction of the total load; unfortunately, a high
fraction). As to the suggestion to just turn it off.....duh, the reason
we have a heated pitot is--never mind, it makes my head hurt.
Sorry for my poor response and sarcasm, but I think you brought it out
of me.
All the forgoing is just kidding. Not many people intentionly flying
their GA craft into icing and not many lose electrical power generation,
but when the two are combined, even though the odds are it happening are
small, the odds of ending up dead are quite large. So, if there was a
reasonably simple mechanical/electrical means of reducing the current
draw of the pitot, I wanted to do it. Kind of like flying an
airplane--not many of us have real good reasons for doing it, but we
just want to do it.
Chuck Jensen
Mike wrote....
The only way I can answer this question is to tell a story. First,
flying in the ice is something many pilot do every year and sometimes
often. If you know what you're doing and are prepared then the risks
are minimal. I have been flying in ice with airplanes that are able to
handle it for better then 20 years. It's not like flying on a sunny
day. But once you get use to it and prepare for it, it's not that big
of a deal. A few words of advice, no two icing days are the same. Only
experience will help you here. My personal feeling on ice in piston
powered planes, you don't have many out when the weather gets bad. When
in ice greater then light find a place to land ASAP.
As for you electric question; First the easy answer is to put a bigger
battery in the airplane. Second, why would you think that using less
power for pitot heat is going to be any better then turning the pitot
heat off all together? Unless you run a thermal equation on the speed,
temperature, and heat (layman's terms) required to guarantee the
anti-ice properties needed, then everything your doing is just a big
guess anyway. And I guessing that since I have to go to the book to do
said equation thoroughly, I would guess the electrical formula by
comparison would be a piece of cake. I know this is not what you want
to hear but the facts are the facts. The reason that the pitot uses so
much power (in general) is that is what it takes to keep ice off the
probe in 100% humidity at temperatures < 10dec C.
Sorry for the poor and somewhat sarcastic answer, but I think Chuck
brought it out in me.
Regards,
Mike Larkin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Speedy11(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 6:57 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw
Chuck,
You have just experienced the main thing I dislike about this forum.
When you ask for advice or assistance, you will commonly get critique on
why you should not do what it is you want to do. It takes several
attempts at explaining that you don't care about opinions - you simply
want assistance. For example, I've asked how to sample volts and amps
in multiple places in my electrical system. I got "you don't need to
know that info while you're flying." Regardless, I want to be able to
do that so how can I do it? Answer: since I don't think you should do
that I'm not going to tell you how to do it.
As you've discovered, getting an answer can be very frustrating.
Still, I've learned a lot about electrical stuff here and I continue to
learn. So, I still find the forum of value.
I wish I had the answer for you - I would provide it. But, I don't.
Hopefully, you will get an acceptable answer.
Stan Sutterfield
Okay, I appreciate everyone holding forth that it's stupid to
fly in
ice....I'm not that dumb, I only look it. However, the question
stands,
how does one knock down the heat and current draw. Richard
mentioned a
'strut switch'....whoever that is. Can someone enlighten us
non-electrical types. What I'm concerned about is being in the
clouds,
close to freezing and loose electrical--I'd just as soon not
have to
turn off the pitot heat because it's sucking the battery dry in
short
order; I'd rather it be in long order.
Chuck Jensen
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dale Ensing" <densing(at)carolina.rr.com> |
Maybe these people http://gilsson.stores.yahoo.net/ can tell you if
the Sensor Systems antenna works with the Lowrance handheld GPS.
Dale Ensing
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GPS Antenna
>
>
>
>>Are GPS antennas generic so they can be hooked up to any receiver? A
>>friend of mine has a L1/L2 antenna manufactured by Sensor Systems and
>>wants to hook it up to a handheld Lowrance.
>>
>>
>
> If it's an un-amplified antenna, it's interchangeable.
> If an "active" antenna, there are no industry wide standards
> for such antennas and there is risk that an antenna not
> specifically designed to service your receiver will
> work. That doesn't mean that there aren't a whole lot
> of active antennas that will nicely interchange . . . only
> that folks who build receivers would dearly love for
> you to use their antenna and are not likely to give you
> a list of other, equally suitable antennas.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | : Rotax Aux Altenator switching. |
| From: | James H Nelson <rv9jim(at)juno.com> |
That sounds really nice. Where did you find them?
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Need engine rpm pickup for Lycoming 360 |
| From: | "Jay Herron" <jay(at)agstore.net> |
I am finally ready to start hooking up wires on my Zenith 801 with Lycoming O-360a1a.
I have a Aveo E-1 and MaxFlight on my panel and need an electronic RPM
pickup for the Lycoming. My ultralight (Quicksilver GT400) was very simple to
wire up as it had a pulse wire from the electronic ignition already. No electronic
ignition on this old Lycoming (Bendix mags). Any suggestions?
Jay Herron
CH801 95% complete
Salem, OH
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79835#79835
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
"Chuck Jensen" wrote:
> The current
> pitot draws about 15 amps. By comparison, my older, but very adequate
> (as in--never iced up) pitot drew 7 amps. While not on a first name
> basis with any electrons, I assume that an amp is an amp and is
> generally going to produce a certain amount of heat, which is apparently
> adequate, based on empirical experience. So, if 7 amps was good enough
> in the old pitot, I was thinkin' that 7 amps was probably good enough
> for this pitot. I could hire a thermodynamist to confirm all this, but
> I'll go out on a limb and employ common sense instead--it's cheaper and
> often, just as accurate.
>
Not quite true Chuck. Your old pitot tube was about 2 ohms. You were
drawing 7 amps from around 14 volts. Power is I^2 * R = 98 W. Now
you have a pitot that's about 1 ohm drawing 15 amps from 14 volts (0.933
ohms but who's counting). Drop the current in this pitot to 7 amps and
power is only 49 W. It was suggested by someone that the dropping
resistor could be mounted on the pitot also which would help, but still
not be equivalent.
Bob W. (Not a thermodynamist but I learned ohms law at an early age.)
--
N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com
First Flight: 11/23/2006 7:50AM - 0.7 Hours Total Time
Cables for your rotary installation - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | Landing Radar....! |
Well, no, it isn't, BUT it works the same way.......
The basis is a back-up sensor which warns you when backing, that you are
approaching ( a pre-set distance from) a reflected object with a 'beep'.
Mine works with 42 kHz out and 24kHz in, I think. (sub-audible frequencies).
These are common in the auto shops now. I revised mine (according to a great
friend and mentor, Graham Clark) to give a sliding tone (in the earphones)
from a high at 5 feet to a low at 5 inches. This I believe will be most
useful over smooth ground (of course) for monowheel or conventional
tailwheel drivers, airframe. Trigear drivers just have to feel their way
down.
However I am told that the newer versions of the 'backup' sensor now
incorporate this feature. The Lockheed TriStar carried a descent radar which
produced a 'pip' of increasing frequency from 250' AGL to 50' then stopped,
just as it got interesting......
With all these solid state devises, I'm getting close to a 1/7 scale
L-1011........!
Ferg Kyle
Europa A064 914 Classic
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
| From: | "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com> |
Bob,
Thanks for the (correct) information. As a child, I lead a sheltered
existance and wasn't allow to play with Ohms, Amps and other foreigners,
so this is new to me. There's a whole new, big, world out there to
learn about. P.S., I still want to reduce my current draw!
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
White
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw
"Chuck Jensen" wrote:
> The current
> pitot draws about 15 amps. By comparison, my older, but very adequate
>(as in--never iced up) pitot drew 7 amps. While not on a first name
>basis with any electrons, I assume that an amp is an amp and is
>generally going to produce a certain amount of heat, which is
>apparently adequate, based on empirical experience. So, if 7 amps was
>good enough in the old pitot, I was thinkin' that 7 amps was probably
>good enough for this pitot. I could hire a thermodynamist to confirm
>all this, but I'll go out on a limb and employ common sense
>instead--it's cheaper and often, just as accurate.
>
Not quite true Chuck. Your old pitot tube was about 2 ohms. You were
drawing 7 amps from around 14 volts. Power is I^2 * R = 98 W. Now you
have a pitot that's about 1 ohm drawing 15 amps from 14 volts (0.933
ohms but who's counting). Drop the current in this pitot to 7 amps and
power is only 49 W. It was suggested by someone that the dropping
resistor could be mounted on the pitot also which would help, but still
not be equivalent.
Bob W. (Not a thermodynamist but I learned ohms law at an early age.)
--
N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com
First Flight: 11/23/2006 7:50AM - 0.7 Hours Total Time
Cables for your rotary installation - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | LED backlit rocker switches |
| From: | "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston(at)popsound.com> |
Hey all -
I've been monitoring this list for awhile now - I'm building an RV-10 -
and I wondered if any of the electron whizzes could help me. I'm trying
to find a good source for custom legend LED backlit rocker switches for
my project.
I've historically done quite a bit of night flying, and after I got my
instrument rating, which I did 100% at night (with the one exception of
the checkride!) I vowed that I would not accept anything less than
complete readability of all controls and switches at night in the
cockpit. It just seemed so crazy that I had to juggle 3 flashlights in
the cockpit - one red led flash attached to my headset, a small red
maglite for cocpit instruments farther away from the pilot position, and
one more large one to look for ice on the airframe (yikes!). then I'd
get into my car after a long night of flying, turn on the lights, and
have no trouble reading any of the controls or switches. This is how I
want my aircraft to be! All controls self illuminating, and a
flashlight for emergency use only! Seems so simple, but I've been
confounded at every turn. Anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks in advance!
cj
#40410
fuse
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "6440 Auto Parts" <sales(at)6440autoparts.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LED backlit rocker switches |
I agree looking for a switch that is always lit and readable not just
when in the on position is like looking for a needle in a haystack. I
fianally decided to go with the cheap EL light strips under the panel. But I
don't do much night flying anyway.
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston(at)popsound.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 10:20 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: LED backlit rocker switches
>
>
> Hey all -
>
> I've been monitoring this list for awhile now - I'm building an RV-10 -
> and I wondered if any of the electron whizzes could help me. I'm trying
> to find a good source for custom legend LED backlit rocker switches for
> my project.
>
> I've historically done quite a bit of night flying, and after I got my
> instrument rating, which I did 100% at night (with the one exception of
> the checkride!) I vowed that I would not accept anything less than
> complete readability of all controls and switches at night in the
> cockpit. It just seemed so crazy that I had to juggle 3 flashlights in
> the cockpit - one red led flash attached to my headset, a small red
> maglite for cocpit instruments farther away from the pilot position, and
> one more large one to look for ice on the airframe (yikes!). then I'd
> get into my car after a long night of flying, turn on the lights, and
> have no trouble reading any of the controls or switches. This is how I
> want my aircraft to be! All controls self illuminating, and a
> flashlight for emergency use only! Seems so simple, but I've been
> confounded at every turn. Anyone have any suggestions?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> cj
> #40410
> fuse
> www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: : Rotax Aux Altenator switching. |
| From: | <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US> |
Hello Jim
As far as Kuntzleman combo LED position and strobe
"That sounds really nice. Where did you find them?"
Home:
http://www.kestrobes.com/
Combo Head:
http://www.kestrobes.com/our_strobe_hds.html
Double Dual Magnum:
http://www.kestrobes.com/ddm_models.html
Dual Magnum strobe under 2 amps, and for both starboard and port, red,
green and both sides aft white 2/3 of an amp total!
The lens cover is I think vacuum formed?? It is OK in clarity, not superb,
overall price is low.
Unit is not certified, and to be honest I don't care all that much if I am
absolute legal to the absolute letter of the law, paramount to me is that
my strobe and position LEDs allow me to be seen.
In my case with a Rotax 914, if you overburden the electrical system with
an approved strobe / position light system, fail your generator and kill
your battery, without electrical power to at least 1 fuel pump, well
"Silent Night" will begin to play.
Absolute/official checking to make sure position lights meet specs is not
an easy and cheap thing. I am more worried that certified planes with
approved position lights and strobes don't have the inside of lenses
dirty, high resistance wiring or less than new output bulbs.
He sells to military I think for Helicopters, and think he says they will
meet specs, but too costly to test.
I tried out my position LEDs, and for certain comparing right next to
local Beechcraft/Piper and Cessnas they work very well. The size of the
LED illumination is a bit smaller than the traditional, not much, but it
is more intense, overall very visable. Coverage as far as area of
visibility is very good with 2 wingtip Combo heads compared to Cessna and
Piper 2 wingtip strobes and 2 tip position lights and tail white from
observing on ground and from top obf building, I didn't test inflight from
below, but extrapulating from test, I am easily happy to trust my life and
all others on the ability for me to be seen.
On my Europa XS Monowheel I am going low draw strobes/position, SD20S with
LR3C main and internal generator as backup / help out with temp high loads
or low RPM, and a total loss 2200mA 13 cell NiMh backup battery in
starboard headrest. Backup battery (under 2 pounds) can run 1 pump with
autonomous wiring in seconds, even start the motor! Or for absolute
certain run the prop for an airstart. After soaring, it is true you should
consider yourself a glider once you shut down motor and treat as you can
not restart, when I do try a inflight restart and my battery that just
passed a load test the week before "opened", in seconds the NiMh can
effortless help out when in 1500 FPM sink! Can also run Main or E-Bus.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Pitot Current Draw |
raymondj wrote:
>
>Rodney (O Wise Master),
>
> Pretty arrogant of you to think that you have control of or responsibility
>for another's actions and to think that you have any right to try to impose
>your values on another by attempting to control their actions.
>
>
>
Oh, get over yourself already. Until you start forking over some cash,
you have no right to demand that anyone answer your questions at all,
let alone in any particular fashion. Many of us sign in here because it
is a good place to mull over and exchange ideas. That includes not only
how to do things, but why to do things. This list, like most, is a
conversation, not just an answering service. I get to choose how I
share what I know. That's MY right. It's pretty arrogant of you to
think that you have control of how another person shares his own
knowledge, and to think that you have any right to try to impose your
values on another by attempting to control their actions.
That said, the original poster was provided with several avenues to
pursue: a power cycler, a series resistor, and Eric's thermal gradient
resistors (sorry, Eric, can't remember the proper name). The merits and
drawbacks of each were discussed. So you he had to spend a few days
watching the ideas bounce around a bit. How much more did that cost vs.
paying a consultant? Was anything learned in the interim that is
probably useless right now, but was free to you none the less, and
possibly useful in the future? I reached deep and gave what little
knowledge I had. Others did the same, teaching me some stuff which I
consider more than adequate payment for my efforts. I controlled no
one, and no one controlled me.
--
,|"|"|, Ernest Christley |
----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder |
o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fiveonepw(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
In a message dated 12/07/2006 7:31:48 AM Central Standard Time,
cjensen(at)dts9000.com writes:
So, if there was a reasonably simple mechanical/electrical means of reducing
the current draw of the pitot, I wanted to do it.
>>>
Not sure if this would work for you- just a possible solution:
http://mpja.com/productview.asp?product=4057+MD
It is a pulse-width modulation speed control for DC motors. I used one for
dimming my panel LEDs. It is rated for 10 amps, so if the pitot heater drew
more, you "might" have to add an appropriate resistor between the board output
and the pitot, but not sure about this. You could use a DPDT switch on the
panel for Pitot Heat with "Full" in one position, wired direct to the the heater,
and the other side "Adj" (or something appropriate) that would supply power
to the speed controller. This would also require adding the control pot to the
panel to adjust the controller, or you could just set it to an acceptable
partial setting and do without the adjustability.
DISCLAIMER: lest somebody take this suggestion and go out and kill
themselves, don't blame me! No sarcasm at all here, and please remember this is
a
venue for advancing the art of experimental aviation electrical systems, not
commentary on opinions of personal philosophy- let's stay on mission, folks...
>From The PosumWorks in TN
Mark Phillips
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Hey Chuck,
Putting a resistor in series does reduce your current draw.. Are you
happy with how much so? Has your question been answered? Your original
question didn't quantify your goal. As has been mentioned, there are
solutions to this problem which can deliver more power to the pitot tube
for less total current expended, but they require more circuitry/figetry
to accomplish.
Matt-
>
>
> Bob,
>
> Thanks for the (correct) information. As a child, I lead a sheltered
> existance and wasn't allow to play with Ohms, Amps and other foreigners,
> so this is new to me. There's a whole new, big, world out there to
> learn about. P.S., I still want to reduce my current draw!
>
> Chuck Jensen
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
> White
> Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 10:23 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw
>
>
> "Chuck Jensen" wrote:
>
>> The current
>> pitot draws about 15 amps. By comparison, my older, but very adequate
>
>>(as in--never iced up) pitot drew 7 amps. While not on a first name
>>basis with any electrons, I assume that an amp is an amp and is
>>generally going to produce a certain amount of heat, which is
>>apparently adequate, based on empirical experience. So, if 7 amps was
>
>>good enough in the old pitot, I was thinkin' that 7 amps was probably
>>good enough for this pitot. I could hire a thermodynamist to confirm
>>all this, but I'll go out on a limb and employ common sense
>>instead--it's cheaper and often, just as accurate.
>>
>
>
> Not quite true Chuck. Your old pitot tube was about 2 ohms. You were
> drawing 7 amps from around 14 volts. Power is I^2 * R = 98 W. Now you
> have a pitot that's about 1 ohm drawing 15 amps from 14 volts (0.933
> ohms but who's counting). Drop the current in this pitot to 7 amps and
> power is only 49 W. It was suggested by someone that the dropping
> resistor could be mounted on the pitot also which would help, but still
> not be equivalent.
>
> Bob W. (Not a thermodynamist but I learned ohms law at an early age.)
>
>
> --
> N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com
> First Flight: 11/23/2006 7:50AM - 0.7 Hours Total Time
> Cables for your rotary installation - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LED backlit rocker switches |
Chris Johnston wrote:
>
>Hey all -
>
>I've been monitoring this list for awhile now - I'm building an RV-10 -
>and I wondered if any of the electron whizzes could help me. I'm trying
>to find a good source for custom legend LED backlit rocker switches for
>my project.
>
>I've historically done quite a bit of night flying, and after I got my
>instrument rating, which I did 100% at night (with the one exception of
>the checkride!) I vowed that I would not accept anything less than
>complete readability of all controls and switches at night in the
>cockpit. It just seemed so crazy that I had to juggle 3 flashlights in
>the cockpit - one red led flash attached to my headset, a small red
>maglite for cocpit instruments farther away from the pilot position, and
>one more large one to look for ice on the airframe (yikes!). then I'd
>get into my car after a long night of flying, turn on the lights, and
>have no trouble reading any of the controls or switches. This is how I
>want my aircraft to be! All controls self illuminating, and a
>flashlight for emergency use only! Seems so simple, but I've been
>confounded at every turn. Anyone have any suggestions?
>
>Thanks in advance!
>
>
I compromised. Digikey has toggle switches with LEDs in the handles. I
used different colors for various items. Water pumps are blue. Fuel
pumps are red. Engine controls are green. All lighting is yellow.
They're all rated at 30A 12VDC, and cost right at $5 each...except for
the blue which I was surprised to find cost $9. (I didn't look that
closely until after I had the order placed).
I daisey chained them all the LED ground tabs together and brought a
single wire to an MPJA motor controller for dimming. They do dim, but I
would like quite a bit more range. I don't think I have the controller
calibrated correctly. The blues are harshly bright, but everything else
glows nice and softly.
This doesn't completely solve what you're looking for, but with an
intimate knowledge of the switch placement and color patterns, I think
it is an improvement.
--
,|"|"|, Ernest Christley |
----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder |
o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fiveonepw(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: LED backlit rocker switches |
In a message dated 12/07/2006 12:21:33 PM Central Standard Time,
echristley(at)nc.rr.com writes:
The blues are harshly bright, but everything else
glows nice and softly.
HI Ed-
Used the same dimmer with similar rockers and had to add about 1000 ohm
resistors (maybe 2000, IIRC) to choke down the blue LEDS. Resistors were added
to
the ground faston tabs on the switch for the LED ground.
Now back to the original question, which was WHERE TO GET LED BACKLIT ROCKER
SWITCHES:
I have also spent much time looking for same. Best I've come up with so far
are not LED, but found these from Aerocraft:
http://www.aerocraftparts.com/Categories.aspx?Category=38940ec0-b260-4e9f-a23c
-b80ff8e89c67 (or go to www.aerocraftparts.com/ and look for
Electrical\Switches\Rocker Switches). These are incandescent.
I ordered a sample, but they are a bit bigger than I'd like, so I am now
looking at these:
http://www.engravers.net/aircraft/rocker_switches.htm which are available
with neon or incandescent bulbs. Will order a sample and see how they look. If
anyone DOES know of some alternatives, particularly with LEDs I'd love to hear
about them!
>From The PossumWorks
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LED backlit rocker switches |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Carling 632 series switches seem like they might fill the bill:
http://rocker-switches.carlingtech.com/illuminated-rocker-switch__37.asp#elibrary
Link to a descriptive pdf file:
http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/CarlingSW_622_632.pdf
Then get them custom engraved.. Or engrave them yourself.. I suspect it
wouldn't be too difficult.
Matt-
>
>
> Hey all -
>
> I've been monitoring this list for awhile now - I'm building an RV-10 -
> and I wondered if any of the electron whizzes could help me. I'm trying
> to find a good source for custom legend LED backlit rocker switches for
> my project.
>
> I've historically done quite a bit of night flying, and after I got my
> instrument rating, which I did 100% at night (with the one exception of
> the checkride!) I vowed that I would not accept anything less than
> complete readability of all controls and switches at night in the
> cockpit. It just seemed so crazy that I had to juggle 3 flashlights in
> the cockpit - one red led flash attached to my headset, a small red
> maglite for cocpit instruments farther away from the pilot position, and
> one more large one to look for ice on the airframe (yikes!). then I'd
> get into my car after a long night of flying, turn on the lights, and
> have no trouble reading any of the controls or switches. This is how I
> want my aircraft to be! All controls self illuminating, and a
> flashlight for emergency use only! Seems so simple, but I've been
> confounded at every turn. Anyone have any suggestions?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> cj
> #40410
> fuse
> www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Bolding" <jnbolding1(at)teleshare.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED backlit rocker switches |
If memory serves, Airpax.net has switch/breaker assys that have the
lever illuminated, used them on my RV3 30 yrs ago. John
----- Original Message -----
From: Matt Prather
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LED backlit rocker switches
Carling 632 series switches seem like they might fill the bill:
http://rocker-switches.carlingtech.com/illuminated-rocker-switch__37.asp#
elibrary
Link to a descriptive pdf file:
http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/CarlingSW_622_632.pdf
Then get them custom engraved.. Or engrave them yourself.. I suspect
it
wouldn't be too difficult.
Matt-
>
>
> Hey all -
>
> I've been monitoring this list for awhile now - I'm building an
RV-10 -
> and I wondered if any of the electron whizzes could help me. I'm
trying
> to find a good source for custom legend LED backlit rocker switches
for
> my project.
>
> I've historically done quite a bit of night flying, and after I got
my
> instrument rating, which I did 100% at night (with the one exception
of
> the checkride!) I vowed that I would not accept anything less than
> complete readability of all controls and switches at night in the
> cockpit. It just seemed so crazy that I had to juggle 3 flashlights
in
> the cockpit - one red led flash attached to my headset, a small red
> maglite for cocpit instruments farther away from the pilot position,
and
> one more large one to look for ice on the airframe (yikes!). then
I'd
> get into my car after a long night of flying, turn on the lights,
and
> have no trouble reading any of the controls or switches. This is
how I
> want my aircraft to be! All controls self illuminating, and a
> flashlight for emergency use only! Seems so simple, but I've been
> confounded at every turn. Anyone have any suggestions?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> cj
> #40410
> fuse
> www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "C Smith" <pilot4profit(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
Hello people, new to list here, and just thinking about the RV-10. I
have a
bit of experience in electronics and things electrical. While I don=92t
have a
circuit right now to show you for the desired purpose of regulating
current
to the pitot (I=92ll need a bit of time to look up a good one) things to
keep
in mind are:
Just a power resister to drop the current will waste =BD the power in
the
limiting resister.
Use the PWM with caution, as it may produce noise in the electrical
system
(depending on the frequency of the oscillations) that may affect your
other
systems, and be a cause for great frustration in locating the
interference.
Give me a few days to do some looking, and maybe I can find a better
solution. Lower frequency is better, go for something that cycles in
seconds, not milliseconds.
Craig Smith.
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw
In a message dated 12/07/2006 7:31:48 AM Central Standard Time,
cjensen(at)dts9000.com writes:
So, if there was a reasonably simple mechanical/electrical means of
reducing
the current draw of the pitot, I wanted to do it.
>>>
Not sure if this would work for you- just a possible solution:
http://mpja.com/productview.asp?product=4057+MD
It is a pulse-width modulation speed control for DC motors. I used one
for
dimming my panel LEDs. It is rated for 10 amps, so if the pitot heater
drew
more, you "might" have to add an appropriate resistor between the board
output and the pitot, but not sure about this. You could use a DPDT
switch
on the panel for Pitot Heat with "Full" in one position, wired direct to
the
the heater, and the other side "Adj" (or something appropriate) that
would
supply power to the speed controller. This would also require adding
the
control pot to the panel to adjust the controller, or you could just set
it
to an acceptable partial setting and do without the adjustability.
DISCLAIMER: lest somebody take this suggestion and go out and kill
themselves, don't blame me! No sarcasm at all here, and please remember
this is a venue for advancing the art of experimental aviation
electrical
systems, not commentary on opinions of personal philosophy- let's stay
on
mission, folks...
>From The PosumWorks in TN
Mark Phillips
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: : Rotax Aux Altenator switching. |
| From: | "h&jeuropa" <europa(at)triton.net> |
We also are using Jim Nelson's crankshaft driven alternator on our Europa Rotax
914. It works very well!! I have also supplied all the necessary parts to others
- my local machine shop does a great job. We don't attempt to run both
the B&C alt and the Rotax simultaneously. During pretakeoff checks, we verify
the Rotax system is operational for use as a backup, but we use the B&C.
Note that if you use the vacuum pump drive on 912 / 914 Rotax, it rotates at a
slower speed than Lyc / Cont so B&C SD 8 and SD 20 put out less current than rated.
Also, a Rotax crank shaft driven alternator runs at 5000 rpm, much less
than the rpm that the manufacturer rates the alternator at. B&C L60 at 5000
rpm is 46 A; L40 at 5000 rpm is 33A. We've supplied kits for both. We have L60
on our 914 - fills in the space in the engine mount pretty well.
Also note that FAR 91 requires "approved position and collision lights". In this
case FAR 23 applies to experimental. Last I checked, the Kuzlemann lights
do not meet the spec. But then your inspector probably won't notice or question
them. We fitted Whelen lights to our Europa.
Jim & Heather Butcher
Europa N241BW
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79961#79961
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Saylor" <Dave(at)AirCraftersLLC.com> |
| Subject: | Aluminum Bus question for Bob |
Bob,
How can I calculate the current carrying capacity of aluminum for sizing of
aluminum bus bars? Can I convert copper AWG to square inches then apply a
factor for aluminum? Any idea what the factor would be? I want to jump 3-4
inches from a GPU plug to the main bus. #4 copper should be adequate but
what size aluminum bar would be equivalent?
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Mmm sort of.. I've seen the details of this topic danced around a bit so
far..
First, let's assume that it's not practically possible to mount the
dropping resistor in such a way that it dissipates it's heat into the
pitot tube. Best case scenario mounts the resistor to the same fasteners
that attach the heater to the wing. Many inches from the place that needs
to get hot.
Point: Let's assume the old, adequate heater used 100Watts when wired to
the bus. Let's further assume the new one uses 200Watts when wired to the
bus. That the old heater was adequate says that 100Watts is enough power
(the right amount) for what Chuck wants to do. The challenge is to get
the new heater to only use 100Watts. The way pick a dropping resistor
which will do that is slightly complex.
First, find the equivalent resistance of the new heater. That can be
found by noting R=V^2/P = 14V*14V/200W = 0.98ohm. Great.
Now we need to look at how much current needs to be shoved through the
0.98ohm resistor to get 100W. That can be found by using I = sqrt(P/R)
sqrt(100/0.98) = 10.101A. Need to pass 10A through a 1ohm resistor to
burn 100Watts. Good, passes the bs check.
Now, let's look at what the total series resistance needs to be in order
to get 10.1A through the circuit. That is R= V/I = 14V/10.1A = 1.386ohm.
So, the total loop resistance needs to be 1.386ohm. 0.98ohm of that is
coming from the pitot tube, and the other 0.41ohm comes from the dropping
resistor.
The power lost in the resistor can be found a couple of ways; I'll show
one... P= (I^2)*R = 41Watts.
The current without the dropping resistor is I = P/V = 200W/14V = 14.3A.
Summary:
To use a dropping resistor to get the equivalent amount of heat from the
pitot tube (goal) reduces the current from 14.3A to 10.1A, and wastes
41Watts on the resistor.
As has been mentioned, picking a resistor value equal to the equivalent
resistance of the heater divides the current consumed by the circuit by
two, but the power delivered to the tube itself by four. Maybe that's not
an adequate amount of power for the tube to function. Certainly it
wouldn't perform as well as the old pitot tube.
Regards,
Matt-
snip
>
> Just a power resister to drop the current will waste the power in the
> limiting resister.
>
snip
> Craig Smith.
>
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
> Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 12:42 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw
>
>
> In a message dated 12/07/2006 7:31:48 AM Central Standard Time,
> cjensen(at)dts9000.com writes:
>
> So, if there was a reasonably simple mechanical/electrical means of
> reducing
> the current draw of the pitot, I wanted to do it.
>
>>>>
>
>
> Not sure if this would work for you- just a possible solution:
>
>
> http://mpja.com/productview.asp?product=4057+MD
>
>
> It is a pulse-width modulation speed control for DC motors. I used one
> for
> dimming my panel LEDs. It is rated for 10 amps, so if the pitot heater
> drew
> more, you "might" have to add an appropriate resistor between the board
> output and the pitot, but not sure about this. You could use a DPDT
> switch
> on the panel for Pitot Heat with "Full" in one position, wired direct to
> the
> the heater, and the other side "Adj" (or something appropriate) that would
> supply power to the speed controller. This would also require adding the
> control pot to the panel to adjust the controller, or you could just set
> it
> to an acceptable partial setting and do without the adjustability.
>
>
> DISCLAIMER: lest somebody take this suggestion and go out and kill
> themselves, don't blame me! No sarcasm at all here, and please remember
> this is a venue for advancing the art of experimental aviation electrical
> systems, not commentary on opinions of personal philosophy- let's stay on
> mission, folks...
>
>
>>From The PosumWorks in TN
>
> Mark Phillips
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Need engine rpm pickup for Lycoming 360 |
>
>I am finally ready to start hooking up wires on my Zenith 801 with
>Lycoming O-360a1a. I have a Aveo E-1 and MaxFlight on my panel and need
>an electronic RPM pickup for the Lycoming. My ultralight (Quicksilver
>GT400) was very simple to wire up as it had a pulse wire from the
>electronic ignition already. No electronic ignition on this old Lycoming
>(Bendix mags). Any suggestions?
You can read rpm from across the p-lead connections of an
operating magneto. When you say 'electronic RPM pickup' I
would hope that your instrument defines what that means.
Many electronic tachs have been built and marketed that
will read RPM from a magneto. Others depend on "real"
5 or 12v square waves from a hall effect device (some will
read the spinning magneto magnet right through the housing).
Still others may be unique pick-up technologies that expected
something way out of the mainstream.
What do the instructions for your instrument say?
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
>
>"Chuck Jensen" wrote:
>
> > The current
> > pitot draws about 15 amps. By comparison, my older, but very adequate
> > (as in--never iced up) pitot drew 7 amps. While not on a first name
> > basis with any electrons, I assume that an amp is an amp and is
> > generally going to produce a certain amount of heat, which is apparently
> > adequate, based on empirical experience. So, if 7 amps was good enough
> > in the old pitot, I was thinkin' that 7 amps was probably good enough
> > for this pitot. I could hire a thermodynamist to confirm all this, but
> > I'll go out on a limb and employ common sense instead--it's cheaper and
> > often, just as accurate.
> >
>
>
>Not quite true Chuck. Your old pitot tube was about 2 ohms. You were
>drawing 7 amps from around 14 volts. Power is I^2 * R = 98 W. Now
>you have a pitot that's about 1 ohm drawing 15 amps from 14 volts (0.933
>ohms but who's counting). Drop the current in this pitot to 7 amps and
>power is only 49 W. It was suggested by someone that the dropping
>resistor could be mounted on the pitot also which would help, but still
>not be equivalent.
>
>Bob W. (Not a thermodynamist but I learned ohms law at an early age.)
We touched on this in an earlier post. Recall that while you're reducing
the current through the heater by 1/2, this drops the voltage across it
by 1/2 also for a new dissipation value of 1/4 the original which comes
to 29.5 watts for the tube and 29.5 watts dropped across the companion
resistor for a system total of 49 watts.
If one is applying a rule of thumb that "7 amps was adequate" then the
goal is to drop the 15A tube (14 x 15 = 210 watts) down to what the
original tube ran (7 x 14 = 98 watts). Obviously this is not a drop
to 1/4 power but 1/2 power. So to get 98 watts dissipated in
the new tube at 1 ohm resistance then I(squared) x 1 = 98.
The new value for current drops NOT to 7A but to 10 amps. Given
14 volts applied and 10 volts needed for the new pitot heater then
we need to drop 4 volts at 10 amps in the power reduction resistor.
This calculates out to 4/10 or 0.4 ohms. The resistor will dissipate
4v x 10A or 40 watts.
So, to keep the same heat delivered to the pitot tube we can only
drop the current from 15A down to 10A. Total system draw will be
140 watts instead of the original 210 watts with 100 watts in the
tube and 40 watts in the resistor.
The foregoing assumption of equivalency holds only if the two
tubes distribute their energy over the same number of square inches
of tube surface. Equivalency for ice-melting abilities is measured
in watts per square inch of power density.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
>
>Mmm sort of.. I've seen the details of this topic danced around a bit so
>far..
Good job Matt. You picked it right up and beat me to it!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw (Duty Cycle Control Case) |
>
>
> So, to keep the same heat delivered to the pitot tube (USING A RESISTOR)
> we can only drop the current from 15A down to 10A. Total system draw
> will be
> 140 watts instead of the original 210 watts with 100 watts in the
> tube and 40 watts in the resistor.
>
> The foregoing assumption of equivalency holds only if the two
> tubes distribute their energy over the same number of square inches
> of tube surface. Equivalency for ice-melting abilities is measured
> in watts per square inch of power density.
Let us consider the duty cycle controller. If you put a transistor
in series with the pitot tube heater and drive it with a 50% duty
cycle square wave, an interesting thing happens . . .
The PEAK power is still 14v x 15A or 210 watts. But since
the heater is operating only 1/2 the time, the AVERAGE power
is now down to 1/2 of peak or 105 watts. Interestingly enough,
the AVERAGE current will also be down to 7A. The conservation
of energy rules are not violated. In the resistor case, there
are LOSSES in the current dropping device while a duty-cycle
driven transistor has minimal losses (as low as 1 watt!).
As others have mentioned, the down side of this scheme is that
your bus gets whacked with a 15A pulse for each operating cycle
of the heater system. One can explore relatively high frequency
switching to avoid seeing the panel lights flicker (and believe
me, they WILL) but this might cause audible noises elsewhere.
Suggest about 30 Hz for minimum observability and below the
audio frequencies of interest in the rest of your electro-whizzies.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike" <mlas(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
Chuck,
I like you! Few people are able to understand my sarcasm and read
between the line when I hammer on the keys=85. I response to what you
just wrote, if in fact 7amps will do and your sure of that. Then what
you are saying is the current (no pun) version of pitot tube is over
kill (also no pun intended). All these assumptions being true then all
you would have to do is reduce the voltage until the current is at 7.
Have fun,
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck
Jensen
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 6:27 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw
Mike,
If I was able to draw the sarcasm out of you, I'd had to see what a pro
could do! (:-)). Actually, I've done the calculations and am satisfied
of the results, even if not confirmed by empirical data. The current
pitot draws about 15 amps. By comparison, my older, but very adequate
(as in--never iced up) pitot drew 7 amps. While not on a first name
basis with any electrons, I assume that an amp is an amp and is
generally going to produce a certain amount of heat, which is apparently
adequate, based on empirical experience. So, if 7 amps was good enough
in the old pitot, I was thinkin' that 7 amps was probably good enough
for this pitot. I could hire a thermodynamist to confirm all this, but
I'll go out on a limb and employ common sense instead--it's cheaper and
often, just as accurate.
As to your suggestion of simply using a bigger battery, I didn't notice
any calculations showing how big and how many batteries I should have.
However, if by limiting heat output in the pitot, I cut my amperage in
half, I can calculate that the draw from my current battery will be 1/2
as much and last twice as long (but not for the full load, since the
pitot is only a fraction of the total load; unfortunately, a high
fraction). As to the suggestion to just turn it off.....duh, the reason
we have a heated pitot is--never mind, it makes my head hurt.
Sorry for my poor response and sarcasm, but I think you brought it out
of me.
All the forgoing is just kidding. Not many people intentionly flying
their GA craft into icing and not many lose electrical power generation,
but when the two are combined, even though the odds are it happening are
small, the odds of ending up dead are quite large. So, if there was a
reasonably simple mechanical/electrical means of reducing the current
draw of the pitot, I wanted to do it. Kind of like flying an
airplane--not many of us have real good reasons for doing it, but we
just want to do it.
Chuck Jensen
Mike wrote....
The only way I can answer this question is to tell a story. First,
flying in the ice is something many pilot do every year and sometimes
often. If you know what you=92re doing and are prepared then the risks
are minimal. I have been flying in ice with airplanes that are able to
handle it for better then 20 years. It=92s not like flying on a sunny
day. But once you get use to it and prepare for it, it=92s not that big
of a deal. A few words of advice, no two icing days are the same. Only
experience will help you here. My personal feeling on ice in piston
powered planes, you don=92t have many out when the weather gets bad.
When
in ice greater then light find a place to land ASAP.
As for you electric question; First the easy answer is to put a bigger
battery in the airplane. Second, why would you think that using less
power for pitot heat is going to be any better then turning the pitot
heat off all together? Unless you run a thermal equation on the speed,
temperature, and heat (layman=92s terms) required to guarantee the
anti-ice properties needed, then everything your doing is just a big
guess anyway. And I guessing that since I have to go to the book to do
said equation thoroughly, I would guess the electrical formula by
comparison would be a piece of cake. I know this is not what you want
to hear but the facts are the facts. The reason that the pitot uses so
much power (in general) is that is what it takes to keep ice off the
probe in 100% humidity at temperatures < 10dec C.
Sorry for the poor and somewhat sarcastic answer, but I think Chuck
brought it out in me.
Regards,
Mike Larkin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Speedy11(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 6:57 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw
Chuck,
You have just experienced the main thing I dislike about this forum.
When you ask for advice or assistance, you will commonly get critique on
why you should not do what it is you want to do. It takes several
attempts at explaining that you don't care about opinions - you simply
want assistance. For example, I've asked how to sample volts and amps
in multiple places in my electrical system. I got "you don't need to
know that info while you're flying." Regardless, I want to be able to
do that so how can I do it? Answer: since I don't think you should do
that I'm not going to tell you how to do it.
As you've discovered, getting an answer can be very frustrating.
Still, I've learned a lot about electrical stuff here and I continue to
learn. So, I still find the forum of value.
I wish I had the answer for you - I would provide it. But, I don't.
Hopefully, you will get an acceptable answer.
Stan Sutterfield
Okay, I appreciate everyone holding forth that it's stupid to fly in
ice....I'm not that dumb, I only look it. However, the question stands,
how does one knock down the heat and current draw. Richard mentioned a
'strut switch'....whoever that is. Can someone enlighten us
non-electrical types. What I'm concerned about is being in the clouds,
close to freezing and loose electrical--I'd just as soon not have to
turn off the pitot heat because it's sucking the battery dry in short
order; I'd rather it be in long order.
Chuck Jensen
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
>
>
> >
> >"Chuck Jensen" wrote:
> >
> > > The current
> > > pitot draws about 15 amps. By comparison, my older, but very adequate
> > > (as in--never iced up) pitot drew 7 amps. While not on a first name
> > > basis with any electrons, I assume that an amp is an amp and is
> > > generally going to produce a certain amount of heat, which is apparently
> > > adequate, based on empirical experience. So, if 7 amps was good enough
> > > in the old pitot, I was thinkin' that 7 amps was probably good enough
> > > for this pitot. I could hire a thermodynamist to confirm all this, but
> > > I'll go out on a limb and employ common sense instead--it's cheaper and
> > > often, just as accurate.
> > >
> >
> >
> >Not quite true Chuck. Your old pitot tube was about 2 ohms. You were
> >drawing 7 amps from around 14 volts. Power is I^2 * R = 98 W. Now
> >you have a pitot that's about 1 ohm drawing 15 amps from 14 volts (0.933
> >ohms but who's counting). Drop the current in this pitot to 7 amps and
> >power is only 49 W. It was suggested by someone that the dropping
> >resistor could be mounted on the pitot also which would help, but still
> >not be equivalent.
> >
> >Bob W. (Not a thermodynamist but I learned ohms law at an early age.)
>
> We touched on this in an earlier post. Recall that while you're reducing
> the current through the heater by 1/2, this drops the voltage across it
> by 1/2 also for a new dissipation value of 1/4 the original which comes
> to 29.5 watts for the tube and 29.5 watts dropped across the companion
> resistor for a system total of 49 watts.
Just a minor point - the 49 W is already 1/4 of the power consumption of
the 'new' pitot tube. The only point I was making was that "I assume
that an amp is an amp and is generally going to produce a certain
amount of heat" was not correct.
Bob W.
>
> If one is applying a rule of thumb that "7 amps was adequate" then the
> goal is to drop the 15A tube (14 x 15 = 210 watts) down to what the
> original tube ran (7 x 14 = 98 watts). Obviously this is not a drop
> to 1/4 power but 1/2 power. So to get 98 watts dissipated in
> the new tube at 1 ohm resistance then I(squared) x 1 = 98.
> The new value for current drops NOT to 7A but to 10 amps. Given
> 14 volts applied and 10 volts needed for the new pitot heater then
> we need to drop 4 volts at 10 amps in the power reduction resistor.
> This calculates out to 4/10 or 0.4 ohms. The resistor will dissipate
> 4v x 10A or 40 watts.
>
> So, to keep the same heat delivered to the pitot tube we can only
> drop the current from 15A down to 10A. Total system draw will be
> 140 watts instead of the original 210 watts with 100 watts in the
> tube and 40 watts in the resistor.
>
> The foregoing assumption of equivalency holds only if the two
> tubes distribute their energy over the same number of square inches
> of tube surface. Equivalency for ice-melting abilities is measured
> in watts per square inch of power density.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
--
N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com
First Flight: 11/23/2006 7:50AM - 0.7 Hours Total Time
Cables for your rotary installation - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "SteinAir, Inc." <stein(at)steinair.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Pitot Current Draw |
MessageWow! This discussion has really taken on a mind of it's own....I see
almost 41 posts in this thread! As usual and in my own sarcastic way, I'm
really confused and boggled as to why we're even discussing this (and to the
unbelievably detailed technical minutia that has arisen out of something
like this)....when there is a perfectly good heated pitot on the market that
does EXACTLY what you want it to do....it varies the current to the tube
from .1 Amps to 7 Amps depending on it's own temperature. When it doesn't
need the heat it just idles, when it does it shoves more power out there.
Why re-invent the wheel...someone already has and his name is Warren Gretz!
I swear, just reading all these posts will waste more time than the $400 and
some odd bucks it takes to buy one brand new....no messing around with all
kinds of crazy little electrical components...bolt it on and go!
Just my 2 cents as usual!
Cheers,
Stein.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chuck
Jensen
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 7:18 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw
Hi, Keith,
That was exactly my thought process also. I didn't want a red hot
branding iron to bore my way through ice cubes...just warm enough to keep
the pitot stuffed full of rain water from freezing. If the icing is bad
enough that it freezes over a warm-to-very warm pitot, I've got bigger
problems that a red hot pitot won't solve.
Since no ideas have been tossed out, I wonder if there is an efficient
means of cycling the pitot heater on/off at some interval, such as on for 30
seconds, off for two minutes. This would reduce the total current draw if a
person was in the soup, lost electrical and needed whatever extra time
available to get to safety but didn't dare to turn off the pitot in marginal
icing conditions.
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith
Hallsten
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 10:36 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw
Chuck,
I mounted a 28v Known Ice pitot on the nose of my Velocity. Since I
have a 14 volt electrical system, its power consumption will be reduced by a
factor of 4 (power = V * V / R). I figure that is sufficient for my
purposes, because a Velocity is NOT a Known Ice type of airframe. If I
should find enough ice to overwhelm my lightweight pitot heating system, I
have bigger problems than the pitot. Im not flying yet, but thats my
position for now.
Actually, now that we all have GPS available to us, loss of pitot is not
as critical as it used to be. With a fat margin to allow for wind, flying
by groundspeed is generally a fair approximation.
Regards,
Keith Hallsten
Subject: RE: Pitot Current Draw
From: Chuck Jensen (cjensen(at)dts9000.com)
Date: Mon Dec 04 - 12:06 PM
Wow, I must be hard-of-speaking (or writing). I concede that flying
into icing when not so equipped is not a good idea, but if a person
flies IFR in the winter most anywhere in the continental US, sooner or
later, they'll pick up some ice. Even if my wings start looking like
something that should be used to cool a gin and tonic, I don't want to
lose air speed indication. Granted, I may not know what my new stall
speed is, but I would like to know WHAT my speed is...and I can't do
that with a pitot full of ice.
So, the question on the table is still the same, is there a way off
'turning down the heat' and reducing current draw?
Chuck Jensen
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <dsvs(at)ca.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Need engine rpm pickup for Lycoming 360 |
Jay,
Advanced Flight Systems has a tach sensor that screws into the mag. Another way
is to purchase a tach drive sensor that screws into the tach drive on the engine.
Check Aircraft Spruce or Wicks for this. Don
---- Jay Herron wrote:
>
> I am finally ready to start hooking up wires on my Zenith 801 with Lycoming O-360a1a.
I have a Aveo E-1 and MaxFlight on my panel and need an electronic RPM
pickup for the Lycoming. My ultralight (Quicksilver GT400) was very simple
to wire up as it had a pulse wire from the electronic ignition already. No electronic
ignition on this old Lycoming (Bendix mags). Any suggestions?
>
> Jay Herron
> CH801 95% complete
> Salem, OH
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=79835#79835
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
If you want to vary the power to the heater, there are dozens, if not
hundreds of designs for adjustable switching power supplies. A switching
supply fed by ship's power that's capable of supplying full current to
the pitot at full voltage would be the most efficient way to vary the power.
This does not address weight issues or the wisdom of reducing the
effectiveness of the pitot heat.
Mike wrote:
> The only way I can answer this question is to tell a story. First,
> flying in the ice is something many pilot do every year and sometimes
> often. If you know what youre doing and are prepared then the risks
> are minimal. I have been flying in ice with airplanes that are able
> to handle it for better then 20 years. Its not like flying on a
> sunny day. But once you get use to it and prepare for it, its not
> that big of a deal. A few words of advice, no two icing days are the
> same. Only experience will help you here. My personal feeling on ice
> in piston powered planes, you dont have many out when the weather
> gets bad. When in ice greater then light find a place to land ASAP.
>
>
>
> As for you electric question; First the easy answer is to put a bigger
> battery in the airplane. Second, why would you think that using less
> power for pitot heat is going to be any better then turning the pitot
> heat off all together? Unless you run a thermal equation on the
> speed, temperature, and heat (laymans terms) required to guarantee
> the anti-ice properties needed, then everything your doing is just a
> big guess anyway. And I guessing that since I have to go to the book
> to do said equation thoroughly, I would guess the electrical formula
> by comparison would be a piece of cake. I know this is not what you
> want to hear but the facts are the facts. The reason that the pitot
> uses so much power (in general) is that is what it takes to keep ice
> off the probe in 100% humidity at temperatures < 10dec C.
>
>
>
> Sorry for the poor and somewhat sarcastic answer, but I think Chuck
> brought it out in me.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Mike Larkin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Speedy11(at)aol.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 6:57 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw
>
>
>
> Chuck,
>
> You have just experienced the main thing I dislike about this forum.
> When you ask for advice or assistance, you will commonly get critique
> on why you should not do what it is you want to do. It takes several
> attempts at explaining that you don't care about opinions - you simply
> want assistance. For example, I've asked how to sample volts and amps
> in multiple places in my electrical system. I got "you don't need to
> know that info while you're flying." Regardless, I want to be able to
> do that so how can I do it? Answer: since I don't think you should do
> that I'm not going to tell you how to do it.
>
> As you've discovered, getting an answer can be very frustrating.
>
> Still, I've learned a lot about electrical stuff here and I continue
> to learn. So, I still find the forum of value.
>
> I wish I had the answer for you - I would provide it. But, I don't.
> Hopefully, you will get an acceptable answer.
>
> Stan Sutterfield
>
>
>
> Okay, I appreciate everyone holding forth that it's stupid to fly in
> ice....I'm not that dumb, I only look it. However, the question
> stands,
> how does one knock down the heat and current draw. Richard
> mentioned a
> 'strut switch'....whoever that is. Can someone enlighten us
> non-electrical types. What I'm concerned about is being in the
> clouds,
> close to freezing and loose electrical--I'd just as soon not have to
> turn off the pitot heat because it's sucking the battery dry in short
> order; I'd rather it be in long order.
>
> Chuck Jensen
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Matronics Fund Raiser - 2006 List of Contributors |
Dear Listers,
I would like to thank everyone that made a Contribution in support of the Lists
this year! It was really nice to hear all great comments people had regarding
the Lists! As I have said many times before, running these Lists is a labor
of love. Your generosity during the List Fund Raiser only underscores the great
sentiments people have made regarding the Lists.
If you haven't yet made a Contribution in support of this year's Fund Raiser please
feel free to do so. The nice List gifts will be available on the site for
just a little while longer, so hurry and make your Contribution and get your
great gift. Once again, the URL for the Contribution web site is:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
I would like to thank Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore ( http://www.buildersbooks.com ), Paul Besing of Aeroware Enterprises ( http://www.kitlog.com ), Jon Croke of Homebuilt HELP ( http://www.homebuilthelp.com ) and Bob Nuckolls of AeroElectric ( http://www.aeroelectric.com ) for their extremely generous support during this year's Fund Raiser through the contribution of merchandise. These are great guys that support the aviation industry and I encourage each and every Lister to have a look at their products. Thank you Andy, Paul, Jon and Bob!! Your support is very much appreciated!
And finally, below you will find a web link to the 2006 List of Contributors current
as of 12/7/06! Have a look at this list of names as these are the people
that make all of these List services possible! I can't thank each of you enough
for your support and great feedback during this year's Fund Raiser!
THANK YOU!
http://www.matronics.com/loc/2006.html
I will be shipping out all of the gifts in the next few weeks and hope to have
everything out by the end of the month. In most cases, gifts will be shipped
via US Postal Service. Kitlog Pro serial numbers should go out via email this
weekend.
Once again, thank you for making this year's List Fund Raiser successful!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jan de Jong <jan.de.jong(at)xs4all.nl> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
As others have mentioned, the down side of this scheme is that
> your bus gets whacked with a 15A pulse for each operating cycle
> of the heater system. One can explore relatively high frequency
> switching to avoid seeing the panel lights flicker (and believe
> me, they WILL) but this might cause audible noises elsewhere.
> Suggest about 30 Hz for minimum observability and below the
> audio frequencies of interest in the rest of your electro-whizzies.
>
There are >1F, < 2mOhm capacitors that one could use to mitigate:
http://www.electronixwarehouse.com/car/accessories/capacitors.htm#spl
(be careful charging/discharging - operate like a short circuit)
15A for 1/60th causes 0.25V dip on charged 1F.
Maybe not as practical as buying off the shelf, but interesting.
Cheers,
Jan de Jong
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rtitsworth" <rtitsworth(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Aluminum Bus question for Bob |
Here is an excerpt of a reply I got from Bob on a related question several
months ago. For more considerations, review the original message from the
archive (or email me and I'll send it).
Rick Titsworth
313-506-5604
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Common Grounding
... I'm building a composite airplane with AFT batteries (Lancair ES). This
would normally result in two large wires/cables running from the aft
batteries/contactors up to the firewall/engine (alt and starter) - one
live(+) and one ground (-). Why not incorporate/embed a "solid" electrical
conductor (ground) which runs the length of the fuselage. For example, this
could be an appropriately sized aluminum bar/rod/strap...
Depends on how much time you want to spend on it. 2AWG copper is
4 oz per foot. Assuming 8' of cable from battery to firewall
gives you 2# of installed weight.
2AWG is about .25" diameter or .05 square-in of cross section.
Alum is 63% conductivity of copper so you'll need about
0.08 square-in of alum. A piece of 0.050" x 1.6" wide fills
the bill. 96" x .05 x 1.6 is 7.7 cu" of aluminum. 0.1 pound
per cubic inch is about 0.8 pounds.
Expected weight savings is about 1.2 pounds. You could bring
the strap up the inside of the firewall and clamp it up to
the firewall ground bus. If you used copper strap, you could
solder it to the ground strap for a really good joint.
Original message/reply continues...
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Saylor
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 7:19 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aluminum Bus question for Bob
Bob,
How can I calculate the current carrying capacity of aluminum for sizing of
aluminum bus bars.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LED backlit rocker switches |
| From: | len.baxter(at)gm.com |
These switches are rated for 125v AC ....... are they OK for 12v DC??? and
will the neon backlight work on 12v DC??
Len
__________________
Carling 632 series switches seem like they might fill the bill:
http://rocker-switches.carlingtech.com/illuminated-rocker-switch__37.asp#elibrary
Link to a descriptive pdf file:
http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/CarlingSW_622_632.pdf
Then get them custom engraved.. Or engrave them yourself.. I suspect it
wouldn't be too difficult.
Matt-
>
>
> Hey all -
>
> I've been monitoring this list for awhile now - I'm building an RV-10 -
> and I wondered if any of the electron whizzes could help me. I'm trying
> to find a good source for custom legend LED backlit rocker switches for
> my project.
>
> I've historically done quite a bit of night flying, and after I got my
> instrument rating, which I did 100% at night (with the one exception of
> the checkride!) I vowed that I would not accept anything less than
> complete readability of all controls and switches at night in the
> cockpit. It just seemed so crazy that I had to juggle 3 flashlights in
> the cockpit - one red led flash attached to my headset, a small red
> maglite for cocpit instruments farther away from the pilot position, and
> one more large one to look for ice on the airframe (yikes!). then I'd
> get into my car after a long night of flying, turn on the lights, and
> have no trouble reading any of the controls or switches. This is how I
> want my aircraft to be! All controls self illuminating, and a
> flashlight for emergency use only! Seems so simple, but I've been
> confounded at every turn. Anyone have any suggestions?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> cj
> #40410
> fuse
> www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Pitot Current Draw |
| From: | "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com> |
Craig/Matt/Bob/Bob again/et al
Thanks for the technical responses which transcends the proclamation
that only dummies fly in ice. And Stein, you have a point if I was only
trying to use some reject hand-me-down pitot and I was too cheap to get
one of Gretz's very elegantly functional pitots. This isn't about
functionality, this is about aesthetics. I have a sharkfin pitot off an
old warbird that I use at the tippy-point of the Velocity. The sharkfin
perfectly picks up the lines of the winglets, yadda, yadda.....trust me,
it's just a personal preference.
Unfortunately, the heating elements in it were obviously designed for
use in cold weather areas. In the winters, when they saw this sucker
coming in, the ramp and line crews left the warmth of their burning
trash barrels to comeover and stand by the pitot where there was some
real heat!!!
My conclusion is if I want to keep the pitot (which I do), I either live
with the current draw, which is really not a serious problem for the
60amp alternator and just hope I don't need it at the same time that I
start suddenly have a shortage of electrons. While the resistor fix may
work, because of the loss to the resistor, the overall amperage
reduction is minimal.....kind of like having to spend a $100 to get a
$20 tax reduction.
The more attractive alternative is duty cycle--assuming it doesn't put
me in electron hell. Anyhow, I appreciate the many responses and the
many tangents engaged. As to those who thought the thread went on too
long and contain too much irrelevant material, just remember--that's why
we sort through the pile of straw and horse s--t that was shoveled out
of the horse barn with our bare hands---on the oft chance there might be
a pony in there somewhere.
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
SteinAir, Inc.
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 11:31 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw
Wow! This discussion has really taken on a mind of it's own....I see
almost 41 posts in this thread! As usual and in my own sarcastic way,
I'm really confused and boggled as to why we're even discussing this
(and to the unbelievably detailed technical minutia that has arisen out
of something like this)....when there is a perfectly good heated pitot
on the market that does EXACTLY what you want it to do....it varies the
current to the tube from .1 Amps to 7 Amps depending on it's own
temperature. When it doesn't need the heat it just idles, when it does
it shoves more power out there. Why re-invent the wheel...someone
already has and his name is Warren Gretz! I swear, just reading all
these posts will waste more time than the $400 and some odd bucks it
takes to buy one brand new....no messing around with all kinds of crazy
little electrical components...bolt it on and go!
Just my 2 cents as usual!
Cheers,
Stein.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chuck
Jensen
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 7:18 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw
Hi, Keith,
That was exactly my thought process also. I didn't want a red
hot branding iron to bore my way through ice cubes...just warm enough to
keep the pitot stuffed full of rain water from freezing. If the icing
is bad enough that it freezes over a warm-to-very warm pitot, I've got
bigger problems that a red hot pitot won't solve.
Since no ideas have been tossed out, I wonder if there is an
efficient means of cycling the pitot heater on/off at some interval,
such as on for 30 seconds, off for two minutes. This would reduce the
total current draw if a person was in the soup, lost electrical and
needed whatever extra time available to get to safety but didn't dare to
turn off the pitot in marginal icing conditions.
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith
Hallsten
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 10:36 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw
Chuck,
I mounted a 28v "Known Ice" pitot on the nose of my Velocity.
Since I have a 14 volt electrical system, its power consumption will be
reduced by a factor of 4 (power = V * V / R). I figure that is
sufficient for my purposes, because a Velocity is NOT a "Known Ice" type
of airframe. If I should find enough ice to overwhelm my "lightweight"
pitot heating system, I have bigger problems than the pitot. I'm not
flying yet, but that's my position for now.
Actually, now that we all have GPS available to us, loss of
pitot is not as critical as it used to be. With a fat margin to allow
for wind, flying by groundspeed is generally a fair approximation.
Regards,
Keith Hallsten
Subject: RE: Pitot Current Draw
From: Chuck Jensen (cjensen(at)dts9000.com
)
Date: Mon Dec 04 - 12:06 PM
Wow, I must be hard-of-speaking (or writing). I concede that
flying
into icing when not so equipped is not a good idea, but if a
person
flies IFR in the winter most anywhere in the continental US,
sooner or
later, they'll pick up some ice. Even if my wings start looking
like
something that should be used to cool a gin and tonic, I don't
want to
lose air speed indication. Granted, I may not know what my new
stall
speed is, but I would like to know WHAT my speed is...and I
can't do
that with a pitot full of ice.
So, the question on the table is still the same, is there a way
off
'turning down the heat' and reducing current draw?
Chuck Jensen
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
h
ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.m
a
tronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
h
ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.m
a
tronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Pitot Current Draw |
>Wow! This discussion has really taken on a mind of it's own....I see
>almost 41 posts in this thread! As usual and in my own sarcastic way, I'm
>really confused and boggled as to why we're even discussing this (and to
>the unbelievably detailed technical minutia that has arisen out of
>something like this)....when there is a perfectly good heated pitot on the
>market that does EXACTLY what you want it to do....it varies the current
>to the tube from .1 Amps to 7 Amps depending on it's own
>temperature. When it doesn't need the heat it just idles, when it does it
>shoves more power out there. Why re-invent the wheel...someone already
>has and his name is Warren Gretz! I swear, just reading all these posts
>will waste more time than the $400 and some odd bucks it takes to buy one
>brand new....no messing around with all kinds of crazy little electrical
>components...bolt it on and go!
If the ONLY reason to have a discussion is to make
a buying decision on a product, then indeed discussing
the physics upon which it operates may be a "waste of
time" for some individuals. I'd like to believe that
the folks who hang out here are also interested in
acquiring a confidence in their decisions based on
understanding as opposed to market popularity or
customer faith in a particular product.
I'm working an EMC problem at RAC right now that is
generating a ton of $100/hr email generation and and
digestion that ranges all the way from techs to
division managers. 99% of what's been written so far
has hashed over a lot of facts (knowledge) and feelings
(popularity contests) but as engineers, our duty is
to not only find and fix the problem but to help everyone
understand how we got there.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
>
>As others have mentioned, the down side of this scheme is that
>
>> your bus gets whacked with a 15A pulse for each operating cycle
>> of the heater system. One can explore relatively high frequency
>> switching to avoid seeing the panel lights flicker (and believe
>> me, they WILL) but this might cause audible noises elsewhere.
>> Suggest about 30 Hz for minimum observability and below the
>> audio frequencies of interest in the rest of your electro-whizzies.
>
>There are >1F, < 2mOhm capacitors that one could use to mitigate:
>http://www.electronixwarehouse.com/car/accessories/capacitors.htm#spl
>(be careful charging/discharging - operate like a short circuit)
>
>15A for 1/60th causes 0.25V dip on charged 1F.
>
>Maybe not as practical as buying off the shelf, but interesting.
>
>Cheers,
>Jan de Jong
Point well taken. Earlier I mentioned a problem with bus
voltage stability encountered with a $50K coffee maker
on a $14M airplane.
For the entirety of my career I've signed up to the notion
that the ship's battery is "the best filter in the airplane".
Evidence to the contrary has been laying on the table in front
of me since day-one but went unnoticed because I failed to
explore the questions.
Turns out that a battery presents its specified milliohm
source impedance to the bus only while it's DELIVERING
energy. Once you elevate the battery's terminals above
the energy delivery value (as for charging and maintaining)
that battery's resistance to small voltage perturbations
disappears.
I did some quick-n-dirty looks at tying 1F capacitors
across the bus. In this case 50A pulses that produced
4-volt perturbations with a battery on line dropped to
1-volt excursions with a 1F capacitor . . . right in the
ballpark with your assertions above.
Problem was that while the battery allowed 4-volt,
25 mS perturbations to generate noticeable flicker in
cabin lights, the 1-volt perturbations were stretched
by the longer system time constant with a capacitor installed.
At 50 mS, the 1-volt perturbations were MORE noticeable than
shorter pulses of greater intensity! Who would have
thunk it?
In any case, these studies have generated a profound
change in the way I view vehicular bus dynamics.
It's interesting how easy it is to be snookered into
a belief structure that is wrong. Not just because
it's heavily preached and deeply held . . . but because
the question, "how does this work?" was never asked.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
>
> >
> > We touched on this in an earlier post. Recall that while you're reducing
> > the current through the heater by 1/2, this drops the voltage across it
> > by 1/2 also for a new dissipation value of 1/4 the original which comes
> > to 29.5 watts for the tube and 29.5 watts dropped across the companion
> > resistor for a system total of 49 watts.
>
>Just a minor point - the 49 W is already 1/4 of the power consumption of
>the 'new' pitot tube. The only point I was making was that "I assume
>that an amp is an amp and is generally going to produce a certain
>amount of heat" was not correct.
>
>Bob W.
Agreed!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jan de Jong <jan.de.jong(at)xs4all.nl> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
> 15A for 1/60th causes 0.25V dip on charged 1F.
Forgot to mention - 0.25V discharge dip is on top of 0.03V resistance
drop dip of 15A and 2mOhm.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike" <mlas(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Pitot Current Draw |
Bob,
Don't forget just to have a little fun every now and then.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 6:18 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw
>Wow! This discussion has really taken on a mind of it's own....I see
>almost 41 posts in this thread! As usual and in my own sarcastic way,
I'm
>really confused and boggled as to why we're even discussing this (and
to
>the unbelievably detailed technical minutia that has arisen out of
>something like this)....when there is a perfectly good heated pitot on
the
>market that does EXACTLY what you want it to do....it varies the
current
>to the tube from .1 Amps to 7 Amps depending on it's own
>temperature. When it doesn't need the heat it just idles, when it does
it
>shoves more power out there. Why re-invent the wheel...someone already
>has and his name is Warren Gretz! I swear, just reading all these
posts
>will waste more time than the $400 and some odd bucks it takes to buy
one
>brand new....no messing around with all kinds of crazy little
electrical
>components...bolt it on and go!
If the ONLY reason to have a discussion is to make
a buying decision on a product, then indeed discussing
the physics upon which it operates may be a "waste of
time" for some individuals. I'd like to believe that
the folks who hang out here are also interested in
acquiring a confidence in their decisions based on
understanding as opposed to market popularity or
customer faith in a particular product.
I'm working an EMC problem at RAC right now that is
generating a ton of $100/hr email generation and and
digestion that ranges all the way from techs to
division managers. 99% of what's been written so far
has hashed over a lot of facts (knowledge) and feelings
(popularity contests) but as engineers, our duty is
to not only find and fix the problem but to help everyone
understand how we got there.
Bob . . .
--
11/22/2006
--
11/22/2006
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "glen matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | FW: RE: Need engine rpm pickup for Lycoming 360 |
glen matejcek
aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
> [Original Message]
> From: glen matejcek <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net>
> To: AeroElectric-List Digest Server
> Date: 12/8/2006 8:56:02 AM
> Subject: RE: Need engine rpm pickup for Lycoming 360
>
> Hi Jay-
>
> >... need an electronic RPM pickup for the Lycoming...
>
> Westach makes a unit that screws right on to the tach drive and (I
believe) outputs a 5V pulse train.
>
> glen matejcek
> aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Pitot Current Draw |
>
>Bob,
>
>Don't forget just to have a little fun every now and then.
>
>Mike
My work is fun . . . or I wouldn't do it!
The coolest feeling in the world for me is to
go to bed understanding something that I didn't
understand that morning.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "C Smith" <pilot4profit(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Pitot Current Draw |
Chuck, I think the capacitor suggested with a PWM might be your best bet. I
have some mil-spec voltage regulators that I think may work as part of the
circuit. These are the same regulators that Cessna uses in their panel
dimmer circuits, just a more rugged version. Give me a day or 2 to hit the
application notes, and I think I can give you a circuit that is cost
effective, efficient and produce little noise. That is if someone else
doesn't beat me to it. Since I see this component used already in certified
aircraft it should be suitable for your application, provided it can handle
the current necessary to keep it at the right temp.
Some years back I worked with some very precise temperature controllers for
infra-red black-body heat sources. Temperature controls accurate to +-.01
deg. C.
CS
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck
Jensen
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 8:19 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw
Craig/Matt/Bob/Bob again/et al
Thanks for the technical responses which transcends the proclamation that
only dummies fly in ice. And Stein, you have a point if I was only trying
to use some reject hand-me-down pitot and I was too cheap to get one of
Gretz's very elegantly functional pitots. This isn't about functionality,
this is about aesthetics. I have a sharkfin pitot off an old warbird that I
use at the tippy-point of the Velocity. The sharkfin perfectly picks up the
lines of the winglets, yadda, yadda.....trust me, it's just a personal
preference.
Unfortunately, the heating elements in it were obviously designed for use in
cold weather areas. In the winters, when they saw this sucker coming in,
the ramp and line crews left the warmth of their burning trash barrels to
comeover and stand by the pitot where there was some real heat!!!
My conclusion is if I want to keep the pitot (which I do), I either live
with the current draw, which is really not a serious problem for the 60amp
alternator and just hope I don't need it at the same time that I start
suddenly have a shortage of electrons. While the resistor fix may work,
because of the loss to the resistor, the overall amperage reduction is
minimal.....kind of like having to spend a $100 to get a $20 tax reduction.
The more attractive alternative is duty cycle--assuming it doesn't put me in
electron hell. Anyhow, I appreciate the many responses and the many
tangents engaged. As to those who thought the thread went on too long and
contain too much irrelevant material, just remember--that's why we sort
through the pile of straw and horse s--t that was shoveled out of the horse
barn with our bare hands---on the oft chance there might be a pony in there
somewhere.
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of SteinAir,
Inc.
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 11:31 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw
Wow! This discussion has really taken on a mind of it's own....I see almost
41 posts in this thread! As usual and in my own sarcastic way, I'm really
confused and boggled as to why we're even discussing this (and to the
unbelievably detailed technical minutia that has arisen out of something
like this)....when there is a perfectly good heated pitot on the market that
does EXACTLY what you want it to do....it varies the current to the tube
from .1 Amps to 7 Amps depending on it's own temperature. When it doesn't
need the heat it just idles, when it does it shoves more power out there.
Why re-invent the wheel...someone already has and his name is Warren Gretz!
I swear, just reading all these posts will waste more time than the $400 and
some odd bucks it takes to buy one brand new....no messing around with all
kinds of crazy little electrical components...bolt it on and go!
Just my 2 cents as usual!
Cheers,
Stein.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chuck
Jensen
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 7:18 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw
Hi, Keith,
That was exactly my thought process also. I didn't want a red hot branding
iron to bore my way through ice cubes...just warm enough to keep the pitot
stuffed full of rain water from freezing. If the icing is bad enough that
it freezes over a warm-to-very warm pitot, I've got bigger problems that a
red hot pitot won't solve.
Since no ideas have been tossed out, I wonder if there is an efficient means
of cycling the pitot heater on/off at some interval, such as on for 30
seconds, off for two minutes. This would reduce the total current draw if a
person was in the soup, lost electrical and needed whatever extra time
available to get to safety but didn't dare to turn off the pitot in marginal
icing conditions.
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith
Hallsten
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 10:36 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw
Chuck,
I mounted a 28v "Known Ice" pitot on the nose of my Velocity. Since I have
a 14 volt electrical system, its power consumption will be reduced by a
factor of 4 (power = V * V / R). I figure that is sufficient for my
purposes, because a Velocity is NOT a "Known Ice" type of airframe. If I
should find enough ice to overwhelm my "lightweight" pitot heating system, I
have bigger problems than the pitot. I'm not flying yet, but that's my
position for now.
Actually, now that we all have GPS available to us, loss of pitot is not as
critical as it used to be. With a fat margin to allow for wind, flying by
groundspeed is generally a fair approximation.
Regards,
Keith Hallsten
Subject: RE: Pitot Current Draw
From: Chuck Jensen (
cjensen(at)dts9000.com)
Date: Mon Dec 04 - 12:06 PM
Wow, I must be hard-of-speaking (or writing). I concede that flying
into icing when not so equipped is not a good idea, but if a person
flies IFR in the winter most anywhere in the continental US, sooner or
later, they'll pick up some ice. Even if my wings start looking like
something that should be used to cool a gin and tonic, I don't want to
lose air speed indication. Granted, I may not know what my new stall
speed is, but I would like to know WHAT my speed is...and I can't do
that with a pitot full of ice.
So, the question on the table is still the same, is there a way off
'turning down the heat' and reducing current draw?
Chuck Jensen
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Aluminum Bus question for Bob |
The electrical conductivity of aluminum alloy 6061-T6 is 43% IACS
(International Annealed Copper Standard) and 2024-T351 is 30% IACS. The
highest conductivity aluminum alloy (if we can call 99.6% pure aluminum an
alloy) is 1060-O with 62 %IACS.
So, if you are using conductor grade aluminum such as 1060 for your bus bar
(not easy to find in your local Home Depot) use a cross section that is
1/0.62 = 1.6 times the cross section of copper bus bar. More likely you
will use 6061 so the cross section must be 2.3 times that of copper for
equivalent current carrying capacity. If you use aluminum wire assume that
the stuff is made with conductor grade aluminum.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
Airframe complete
Irvine, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave
Saylor
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 4:19 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aluminum Bus question for Bob
Bob,
How can I calculate the current carrying capacity of aluminum for sizing of
aluminum bus bars? Can I convert copper AWG to square inches then apply a
factor for aluminum? Any idea what the factor would be? I want to jump 3-4
inches from a GPU plug to the main bus. #4 copper should be adequate but
what size aluminum bar would be equivalent?
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
<http://www.buildersbooks.com>
<http://www.homebuilthelp.com>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LED backlit rocker switches |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
They should work fine for many 12V DC applications. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/swtchrat.pdf
The Neon backlight won't work on 12V DC, but LED is what was asked for..
The datasheet shows 6V, 12V, and 24V DC LED setups, plus one which
presumably lacks a dropping resistor (unbalasted).
Matt-
> These switches are rated for 125v AC ....... are they OK for 12v DC??? and
> will the neon backlight work on 12v DC??
>
>
> Len
>
>
> __________________
>
>
>
>
> Carling 632 series switches seem like they might fill the bill:
>
> http://rocker-switches.carlingtech.com/illuminated-rocker-switch__37.asp#elibrary
>
>
> Link to a descriptive pdf file:
>
> http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/CarlingSW_622_632.pdf
>
>
> Then get them custom engraved.. Or engrave them yourself.. I suspect it
> wouldn't be too difficult.
>
>
> Matt-
>
>
>>
>>
>> Hey all -
>>
>> I've been monitoring this list for awhile now - I'm building an RV-10 -
>> and I wondered if any of the electron whizzes could help me. I'm trying
>> to find a good source for custom legend LED backlit rocker switches for
>> my project.
>>
>> I've historically done quite a bit of night flying, and after I got my
>> instrument rating, which I did 100% at night (with the one exception of
>> the checkride!) I vowed that I would not accept anything less than
>> complete readability of all controls and switches at night in the
>> cockpit. It just seemed so crazy that I had to juggle 3 flashlights in
>> the cockpit - one red led flash attached to my headset, a small red
>> maglite for cocpit instruments farther away from the pilot position, and
>> one more large one to look for ice on the airframe (yikes!). then I'd
>> get into my car after a long night of flying, turn on the lights, and
>> have no trouble reading any of the controls or switches. This is how I
>> want my aircraft to be! All controls self illuminating, and a
>> flashlight for emergency use only! Seems so simple, but I've been
>> confounded at every turn. Anyone have any suggestions?
>>
>> Thanks in advance!
>>
>> cj
>> #40410
>> fuse
>> www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Exterior Lights (Again) |
12/08/2006
Hello Jim,
1)You wrote: "Also note that FAR 91 requires "approved position and
collision lights". In this case FAR 23 applies to experimental."
I am not so sure that it is all that definitive. Can I please provide an
opinion (copied below) from a previous exchange on this subject?
--------------------- COPY FOLLOWS ------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 11:43 AM
Subject: Reasonable qualification for flight hardware?
> 11/09/2006
>
> Responding to a previous posting by Dave N6030X
> Hello Dave Morris, You wrote: "You probably need to find out whether the
> FARs on light intensity apply to experimental aircraft or not."
>
> This is a question that has no clear cut answer. Let's examine the
> regulatory issue in the context of exterior lighting:
>
> 1) The Operating Limitations for each ABEA (Amateur Built Experimental
> Aircraft)** include the following sentence: "After completion of Phase I
> flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument
> flight in accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under
> VFR, day only."
>
> 2) To the FAA this sentence means that if the ABEA is operated day VFR
> that none of the instrument and equipment requirement provisions of FAR
> 91.205 would apply.
>
> 3) This means that during day VFR operations not even FAR 91.205 (b) (11)
> regarding the requirement for an anticollision light system would apply.
>
> 4) But as soon as the aircraft is operated at night or in instrument
> flight, either day or night, the provisions of FAR 91.205 (b) (11), (c)
> (2) and (c) (3) regarding exterior lighting would apply.
>
> 5) Each of the subparagraphs listed in 4 above contain the word
> "approved".
>
> 6) But since there are no published certification standards for ABEA there
> is no criteria available to measure approval against and one could
> conclude that any exterior lighting on an ABEA would be acceptable.
>
> 7) But logic raises the issue of interface with other aircraft.## The
> purpose of exterior lighting is to permit other observers in the air and
> on the ground to see the ABEA and react accordingly. If the ABEA is
> inadequately lighted then a hazard to others could exist .
>
> 8) This line of reasoning would permit the initial airworthiness inspector
> to examine the exterior lighting of the ABEA with regard to its adequacy.
> The inspector could conclude, if exterior lighting is present, that the
> builder intended to operate the aircraft at night or in instrument
> conditions and that therefore some specified level of performance should
> be attained by that lighting.
>
> 9) A reasonable level of lighting performance to be expected could be
> equivalent to that required of type certificated aircraft.
>
> 10) It is unlikely that the inspector would have either the equipment or
> the inclination to actually measure the exterior lighting performance
> during his initial airworthiness inspection.
>
> 11) One course of action for the inspector to ensure that the ABEA
> lighting installed would meet some accepted performance standard would be
> for him to require the ABEA to have installed exterior lighting approved
> for installation in type certificated aircraft.
>
> 12) The issue may become confused if the builder installs some new
> technology lighting (like LED's) that to any unbiased observer is
> obviously superior to conventional lighting, but does not carry any kind
> of FAA approval marking. To what extent is the initial airworthiness
> inspector willing to sign off such lighting?
>
> So I think that the answer to your question: "Do the FARs on light
> intensity apply to ABEA or not?" depends upon the actions of the
> individual initial airworthiness inspector. It may also be possible that
> an FAA inspector during a ramp inspection could raise this issue.
>
> OC -- The best investment we will ever make is in gathering knowledge.
>
> **PS: Some people prefer the more benign sounding, but less precise term,
> OBAM (Owner Built And Maintained) aircraft.
>
> ##PS: There are other items of ABEA equipment where interface with other
> aircraft or the ATC system require specified levels of performance. Some
> that come to mind are communication radios, altitude encoders,
> transponders, navigation equipment, and ELT's. In most cases the easiest
> way to ensure that specified levels of performance will be met is to
> install approved equipment such as that marked to meet a TSO (Technical
> Standard Order)
----------------------- COPY ENDS ---------------------------
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: : Rotax Aux Altenator switching.
From: "h&jeuropa" <europa(at)triton.net>
We also are using Jim Nelson's crankshaft driven alternator on our Europa
Rotax
914. It works very well!! I have also supplied all the necessary parts to
others
- my local machine shop does a great job. We don't attempt to run both
the B&C alt and the Rotax simultaneously. During pretakeoff checks, we
verify
the Rotax system is operational for use as a backup, but we use the B&C.
Note that if you use the vacuum pump drive on 912 / 914 Rotax, it rotates at
a
slower speed than Lyc / Cont so B&C SD 8 and SD 20 put out less current than
rated.
Also, a Rotax crank shaft driven alternator runs at 5000 rpm, much less
than the rpm that the manufacturer rates the alternator at. B&C L60 at 5000
rpm is 46 A; L40 at 5000 rpm is 33A. We've supplied kits for both. We have
L60
on our 914 - fills in the space in the engine mount pretty well.
Also note that FAR 91 requires "approved position and collision lights". In
this
case FAR 23 applies to experimental. Last I checked, the Kuzlemann lights
do not meet the spec. But then your inspector probably won't notice or
question
them. We fitted Whelen lights to our Europa.
Jim & Heather Butcher
Europa N241BW
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fiveonepw(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | New Topic! Wire label-making machines |
In a message dated 12/07/2006 10:37:52 PM Central Standard Time,
stein(at)steinair.com writes:
I'm really confused and boggled
Stein- what do you guys use to label your wires? I've used Brady lablemaker
pro (dot matrix through ribbon) but machine is T-up and looking for
replacement, preferably one that prints shrink tube. One RV-lister recommended
the Dymo
Rhino Pro 5000. Any other recommendations out there from actual users of one
of these type machines?
And no, I'm not printing & cutting out itty bitty labels and slipping them
into little pieces of clear shrink tube- I need a one-shot machine to get this
done and move on...
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Burnaby" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
| Subject: | Decreasing current to DC Motor |
I have EFI pumps that move way too much fuel for my purposes. Is there
an inexpensive way to starve the current to the pump motor so that
output is decreased without harming the motor? The pump normally draws 7
amps.
Thanks
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | New Topic! Wire label-making machines |
| From: | "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net> |
Mark,
I have the Dymo. Works good, lasts long time. J Prints on a shrink
tube also.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Fuselage
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 10:50 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines
In a message dated 12/07/2006 10:37:52 PM Central Standard Time,
stein(at)steinair.com writes:
I'm really confused and boggled
Stein- what do you guys use to label your wires? I've used Brady
lablemaker pro (dot matrix through ribbon) but machine is T-up and
looking for replacement, preferably one that prints shrink tube. One
RV-lister recommended the Dymo Rhino Pro 5000. Any other
recommendations out there from actual users of one of these type
machines?
And no, I'm not printing & cutting out itty bitty labels and slipping
them into little pieces of clear shrink tube- I need a one-shot machine
to get this done and move on...
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fiveonepw(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: LED backlit rocker switches |
In a message dated 12/08/2006 7:22:38 AM Central Standard Time,
len.baxter(at)gm.com writes:
These switches are rated for 125v AC ....... are they OK for 12v DC??? and
will the neon backlight work on 12v DC??
See:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/swtchrat.pdf
One thing I don't like about the 622/632 series Carlings is that the lit
rocker operators are clear colors (not translucent) so they may not be very easy
to read if engraved. Take a look at these:
http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/CarlingSW_LRG.pdf
Might be a better choice, and many operator colors, clear and translucent,
but not LED- still 12v incandescent.
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | New Topic! Wire label-making machines |
Michael,
Which one, where'd you get it, how much....yada yada?
Ralph
Most of my wiring's done - little pieces of laser printed paper stuffed into shrink
tubes......
-----Original Message-----
>From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
>Sent: Dec 8, 2006 1:17 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines
>
>Mark,
>
>
>
> I have the Dymo. Works good, lasts long time. J Prints on a shrink
>tube also.
>
>
>
>Michael Sausen
>
>-10 #352 Fuselage
>
>
>
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
>Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 10:50 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines
>
>
>
>In a message dated 12/07/2006 10:37:52 PM Central Standard Time,
>stein(at)steinair.com writes:
>
> I'm really confused and boggled
>
>Stein- what do you guys use to label your wires? I've used Brady
>lablemaker pro (dot matrix through ribbon) but machine is T-up and
>looking for replacement, preferably one that prints shrink tube. One
>RV-lister recommended the Dymo Rhino Pro 5000. Any other
>recommendations out there from actual users of one of these type
>machines?
>
>
>
>And no, I'm not printing & cutting out itty bitty labels and slipping
>them into little pieces of clear shrink tube- I need a one-shot machine
>to get this done and move on...
>
>
>
>Mark
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Larry L. Tompkins, P.E." <tompkinsl(at)integra.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Pitot Current Draw |
Amen, Stein! And it took two weeks for the response that actually
answered Chuck's original question!
Larry
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Decreasing current to DC Motor |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
This is just like the pitot tube question..
Old EFI systems had pressure regulators that returned unused fuel to the
tank. The pump was big enough to provide all the fuel the engine could
burn plus a little bit (to be returned to the tank).
My understanding is that newer automotive systems have returnless pressure
regulator/pump systems which use pulse width modulation (PWM) to regulate
pump output. I think it's likely that your pumps could use such a system.
Out of curiousity, wouldn't it make more sense to get pumps that are of
the correct scale for your application? At the same time, and with no
intent to insult your inteligence.. Fuel systems will require the
correct pressure to be maintained at the full flow rate consumed by the
engine (when flat-out).. Most IC engines will need around 0.65 lbs/hp/hr
of fuel. So, a 180hp engine will use 180hp * 0.65 lbs/hp/hr / 6lbs/gal
19.5gal/hr. When your make 100hp, you don't want to over lean, so the
system should have some headroom to provide extra fuel.. Maybe 25gal/hr
at system pressure would be a good target for a 180hp engine..
Regards,
Matt-
> I have EFI pumps that move way too much fuel for my purposes. Is there an
> inexpensive way to starve the current to the pump motor so that output is
> decreased without harming the motor? The pump normally draws 7 amps.
>
> Thanks
> John
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LED backlit rocker switches |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Those are nice looking - probably better than the ones I proposed from a
readability standpoint. I wonder of the 632's could be frosted during the
engraving process. Seems like that would solve the issue.
Matt-
> In a message dated 12/08/2006 7:22:38 AM Central Standard Time,
> len.baxter(at)gm.com writes:
> These switches are rated for 125v AC ....... are they OK for 12v DC???
> and
> will the neon backlight work on 12v DC??
> See:
>
> http://aeroelectric.com/articles/swtchrat.pdf
>
> One thing I don't like about the 622/632 series Carlings is that the lit
> rocker operators are clear colors (not translucent) so they may not be
> very easy
> to read if engraved. Take a look at these:
>
> http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/CarlingSW_LRG.pdf
>
> Might be a better choice, and many operator colors, clear and translucent,
> but not LED- still 12v incandescent.
>
> Mark
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Firewall penetration |
| From: | "Don Owens" <springcanyon(at)methow.com> |
I have the need to bring several bundles of wire through my RV-7 firewall. I have
some of the two-piece, stainless, firewall shields, but can't help but think
there is a better way. Any great ideas out there [Question]
Thanks,
Don Owens
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p211#80211
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Banus" <mbanus(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LED backlit rocker switches |
.....I ordered a sample, but they are a bit bigger than I'd like, so I am
now
looking at these:
<http://www.engravers.net/aircraft/rocker_switches.htm>
http://www.engravers.net/aircraft/rocker_switches.htm which are available
with neon or incandescent bulbs. Will order a sample and see how they look.
If
anyone DOES know of some alternatives, particularly with LEDs I'd love to
hear
about them!..........
CAUTION: I ordered these AML switches for my Glasair and received the NEON
bulbs (AML36). You do not want them as they will not light up with 14V. You
will need the incandescent bulbs for 14v (AML-34).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "springcanyon" <springcanyon(at)methow.com> |
| Subject: | New Topic! Wire label-making machines |
Michael, I am not familiar with these machines how does it print on
shrink tubing?
Don Owens
Mark,
I have the Dymo. Works good, lasts long time. :-) Prints on a shrink
tube also.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Fuselage
In a message dated 12/07/2006 10:37:52 PM Central Standard Time,
stein(at)steinair.com writes:
I'm really confused and boggled
Stein- what do you guys use to label your wires? I've used Brady lablemaker
pro (dot matrix through ribbon) but machine is T-up and looking for
replacement, preferably one that prints shrink tube. One RV-lister
recommended the Dymo Rhino Pro 5000. Any other recommendations out there
from actual users of one of these type machines?
And no, I'm not printing & cutting out itty bitty labels and slipping them
into little pieces of clear shrink tube- I need a one-shot machine to get
this done and move on...
Mark
--
12:53 PM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ernie & Margo" <ekells(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetration |
Don: Since you are building an RV look in the Vans catalogue under
Firewall Shields. The "One Hole Eyeball" (EYEBALL TTP-125) is very
superior to the two piece shields as well as the others. You drill one hole
(albeit a large one). No rivets or screws. You don't have to install the
split halves until you are completely done your project (can always add an
extra wire). Only two negatives: First, it's expensive (worth every
penny). Second, you have to remember to screw the retaining ring on when
you install the eyeball -- before you run any wire) Don't ask how I learned
that lesson. Other places sell them for roughly the same price - around
$25.00.
Good luck with your project.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Owens" <springcanyon(at)methow.com>
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 3:24 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Firewall penetration
>
>
> I have the need to bring several bundles of wire through my RV-7 firewall.
> I have some of the two-piece, stainless, firewall shields, but can't help
> but think there is a better way. Any great ideas out there [Question]
>
> Thanks,
> Don Owens
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p211#80211
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "SteinAir, Inc." <stein(at)steinair.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LED backlit rocker switches |
BINGO! These are almost exclusively what all of us "in the business" use on
panels. The Honeywell AML's are top quality, and you can get the rockers in
a variety of colors. Best of all, the are nicely sized and egrave VERY
nicely from Wayne at Engravers....
I would stay away from the Carlings. We've used them before and frankly
they are kind of a crappy switch (both of the series mentioned previously in
this string).
Regarding lights, don't waste your time on incandescents for the AML's.
It's not a matter of IF they will burn out, but WHEN. In all the panels we
build we put only LED's in them....plus the neat thing is the LED's are
avaiable in a variety of colors, so if you put them behind the white rocker
covers, you get a nice blue, orange, gree, etc.. color when they are turned
on!
Anyway, they are not cheap but the switches are very high quality and
professional looking. Believe me, we've used almost every rocker out there
(Carling, Otto, Eaton, etc..) and as of today the only thing we really
encourage is the Honeywell AML's.
Just my 2 cents as usual!
Cheers,
Stein.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mark Banus
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 2:37 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED backlit rocker switches
......I ordered a sample, but they are a bit bigger than I'd like, so I am
now
looking at these:
http://www.engravers.net/aircraft/rocker_switches.htm which are available
with neon or incandescent bulbs. Will order a sample and see how they
look. If
anyone DOES know of some alternatives, particularly with LEDs I'd love to
hear
about them!..........
CAUTION: I ordered these AML switches for my Glasair and received the NEON
bulbs (AML36). You do not want them as they will not light up with 14V. You
will need the incandescent bulbs for 14v (AML-34).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Vs" <dsvs(at)ca.rr.com> |
| Subject: | New Topic! Wire label-making machines |
Try the K-Son #2011xlb available from www.magesupply.com it is a little
expensive at $319 but I have the one it replaces and I would not give it up.
You can get tubes for any size wire you use in an airplane. Don
-----Original Message-----[dsvs]
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 8:50 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines
In a message dated 12/07/2006 10:37:52 PM Central Standard Time,
stein(at)steinair.com writes:
I'm really confused and boggled
Stein- what do you guys use to label your wires? I've used Brady
lablemaker pro (dot matrix through ribbon) but machine is T-up and looking
for replacement, preferably one that prints shrink tube. One RV-lister
recommended the Dymo Rhino Pro 5000. Any other recommendations out there
from actual users of one of these type machines?
And no, I'm not printing & cutting out itty bitty labels and slipping them
into little pieces of clear shrink tube- I need a one-shot machine to get
this done and move on...
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | New Topic! Wire label-making machines |
| From: | "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net> |
The kit I bought is The Dymo RhinoPro 5000:
http://global.dymo.com/enUS/ProductAccessories/RhinoPRO_5000_Hard_Case_K
it.html
If you scroll down to accessories you'll see that you can get label
cartridges that are actually shrink wrap tubing. They also have a
polyester label that is very durable. Look around and you can find the
kit for about $150.
Michael
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
springcanyon
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 2:53 PM
Subject: RE: [Spam] RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making
machines
Michael, I am not familiar with these machines - how does it print on
shrink tubing?
Don Owens
Mark,
I have the Dymo. Works good, lasts long time. J Prints on a shrink
tube also.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Fuselage
In a message dated 12/07/2006 10:37:52 PM Central Standard Time,
stein(at)steinair.com writes:
I'm really confused and boggled
Stein- what do you guys use to label your wires? I've used Brady
lablemaker pro (dot matrix through ribbon) but machine is T-up and
looking for replacement, preferably one that prints shrink tube. One
RV-lister recommended the Dymo Rhino Pro 5000. Any other
recommendations out there from actual users of one of these type
machines?
And no, I'm not printing & cutting out itty bitty labels and slipping
them into little pieces of clear shrink tube- I need a one-shot machine
to get this done and move on...
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com> |
| Subject: | New Topic! Wire label-making machines |
Probably that link needs to be www.imagesupply.com and the model needs to be
the 2012xlb (don't think the 2011 support tube tape at least not from the
imagesupply website anyway...
FWIW,
Alan
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Vs
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 9:37 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines
Try the K-Son #2011xlb available from www.magesupply.com it is a little
expensive at $319 but I have the one it replaces and I would not give it up.
You can get tubes for any size wire you use in an airplane. Don
-----Original Message-----[dsvs]
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 8:50 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines
In a message dated 12/07/2006 10:37:52 PM Central Standard Time,
stein(at)steinair.com writes:
I'm really confused and boggled
Stein- what do you guys use to label your wires? I've used Brady lablemaker
pro (dot matrix through ribbon) but machine is T-up and looking for
replacement, preferably one that prints shrink tube. One RV-lister
recommended the Dymo Rhino Pro 5000. Any other recommendations out there
from actual users of one of these type machines?
And no, I'm not printing & cutting out itty bitty labels and slipping them
into little pieces of clear shrink tube- I need a one-shot machine to get
this done and move on...
Mark
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Vs" <dsvs(at)ca.rr.com> |
| Subject: | New Topic! Wire label-making machines |
Right on both counts, sorry about that. Don
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Alan K.
Adamson
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 6:55 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines
Probably that link needs to be www.imagesupply.com and the model needs to
be the 2012xlb (don't think the 2011 support tube tape at least not from the
imagesupply website anyway...
FWIW,
Alan
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Vs
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 9:37 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines
Try the K-Son #2011xlb available from www.magesupply.com it is a little
expensive at $319 but I have the one it replaces and I would not give it up.
You can get tubes for any size wire you use in an airplane. Don
-----Original Message-----[dsvs]
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 8:50 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines
In a message dated 12/07/2006 10:37:52 PM Central Standard Time,
stein(at)steinair.com writes:
I'm really confused and boggled
Stein- what do you guys use to label your wires? I've used Brady
lablemaker pro (dot matrix through ribbon) but machine is T-up and looking
for replacement, preferably one that prints shrink tube. One RV-lister
recommended the Dymo Rhino Pro 5000. Any other recommendations out there
from actual users of one of these type machines?
And no, I'm not printing & cutting out itty bitty labels and slipping
them into little pieces of clear shrink tube- I need a one-shot machine to
get this done and move on...
Mark
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Exterior Lights (Again) |
12/08/2006
Hello Jim, Thanks for your prompt and considered reply.
You wrote: "The standard is for lighting not ABEA."
Yes, there is a published standard for exterior lighting in FAR Part 23. The
issue is: Does that Part 23 standard, in a formal, explicit, regulatory
manner, apply to exterior lighting installed on an ABEA (Amateur Built
Experimental Aircraft)? Or, more broadly, does any published FAA standard
apply to an ABEA and the equipment installed upon it?
A while back I was involved in an issue where a DAR performing an initial
airworthiness inspection on an ABEA was attempting to force a builder to
replace his seat belts / shoulder harnesses with those marked with TSO
tags. I appealed to FAA Headquarters on behalf of the builder and William
O'Brien replied thusly:
on 09/02/2003 "Subject: Re: Shoulder Harness TSO. There is no certification
requirement for a TSO shoulder harness for amateur-built. The word
experimental means that the aircraft does not meet a standard."
This tells me that no explicit, published, formal regulatory standards must
be met by either the equipment on an ABEA or the ABEA itself.
So why don't we have just a bunch of unsafe junk flying around in the form
of ABEA's? It is because: A) Most builders are reasonable people, and B)
There is a significant weight of process, training, accepted airworthiness
practices, and Administrator level approval or disapproval power in the
hands of the initial airworthiness inspector of each ABEA.
And I believe that those inspectors give more weight to those equipment
items on ABEA that can affect other aircraft and ATC operations than they do
to an item that would affect only the occupants of the ABEA. That is why
those occupants are given fair warning by mandatory signs and a placard in
that ABEA that they are entering territory not entirely protected by
published US Government aviation standards.
As I have pointed out previously there are certain items of equipment that
must meet interface, compatibility, and functional criteria with entities
outside of the ABEA itself and usually the easiest way to accomplish those
goals is to install a piece of FAA approved equipment.
OC -- The best investment we will ever make is in gathering knowledge.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Butcher" <europa(at)triton.net>
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: Exterior Lights (Again)
> Interesting comment. After reading your COPY I have to agree that ABEA by
> 91.319 (d) (2) can operate day VFR without fulfilling the requirements of
> 91.205. To operate night or IFR then 91.205 applies and approved is
> defined
> in FAR 1.1 as "approved by the Administrator". The most common way that
> is
> done is by FAR, in this case, FAR 23.
>
> I guess I disagree that " 6) But since there are no published
> certification
> standards for ABEA there is no criteria available to measure approval
> against and one could conclude that any exterior lighting on an ABEA would
> be acceptable." The standard is for lighting not ABEA.
>
> Just my interpretation.
>
> Jim Butcher
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
Mike Larkin,
I don't mean to be sarcastic, but you didn't answer any questions - at least
any questions that had been asked. Chuck asked about how to wire his pitot
heat so as to have the option to cycle from low heat to high heat.
I don't agree with Chuck regarding the wisdom of using a lower heat setting
to save power in IMC icing conditions if the alternator fails, but his question
is not, "Should I use a lower heat setting?" His question is, "How do I wire
so to obtain my choice of heat settings?"
We all have personal stories to tell. They aren't relevant to Chuck's
question unless they are related to how one wires one's electrical system to obtain
high-low pitot heat.
My personal philosophy regarding icing conditions in SE piston powered
aircraft is exactly the same as yours. But, my philosophy about flying in icing
conditions is not relevant to Chuck's question.
The only answer or opinion that Chuck wants is the one that describes to him
how to wire his electrical system to permit high and low pitot heat settings.
We have to leave it to him to decide if such a system is adequate and if it
is wise to employ it in icing conditions.
Regards,
Stan Sutterfield
The only way I can answer this question is to tell a story. First,
flying in the ice is something many pilot do every year and sometimes
often. If you know what you=92re doing and are prepared then the risks
are minimal. I have been flying in ice with airplanes that are able to
handle it for better then 20 years. It=92s not like flying on a sunny
day. But once you get use to it and prepare for it, it=92s not that big
of a deal. A few words of advice, no two icing days are the same. Only
experience will help you here. My personal feeling on ice in piston
powered planes, you don=92t have many out when the weather gets bad.
When
in ice greater then light find a place to land ASAP.
As for you electric question; First the easy answer is to put a bigger
battery in the airplane. Second, why would you think that using less
power for pitot heat is going to be any better then turning the pitot
heat off all together? Unless you run a thermal equation on the speed,
temperature, and heat (layman=92s terms) required to guarantee the
anti-ice properties needed, then everything your doing is just a big
guess anyway. And I guessing that since I have to go to the book to do
said equation thoroughly, I would guess the electrical formula by
comparison would be a piece of cake. I know this is not what you want
to hear but the facts are the facts. The reason that the pitot uses so
much power (in general) is that is what it takes to keep ice off the
probe in 100% humidity at temperatures
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
Matt,
An interesting concept.
Stan Sutterfield
Why doesn't anyone have a pitot tube heated directly
by the combustion of a hydrocarbon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
Dr. Rodney,
Tell me, o wise one, how can one read the mind of another to determine
whether or not he might misuse information you provide?
You, and others, cannot police everyone's thoughts. Nor should you.
Regards,
Grasshopper
I believe I have some measure of
culpability for the actions of others if I have enabled them in some way to
DO something bad with the information they're gathering. And, I believe the
listers here believe that too!
We listers want everyone here to play safe!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
Thank you, Raymond. I could not have said it better.
Stan Sutterfield
Rodney (O Wise Master),
Pretty arrogant of you to think that you have control of or responsibility
for another's actions and to think that you have any right to try to impose
your values on another by attempting to control their actions.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
Wow, a recent first flight?
Tell us about it. Do you have photos posted anywhere?
Couldn't connect to your web site.
Stan Sutterfield
Bob W. (Not a thermodynamist but I learned ohms law at an early age.)
--
N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com
First Flight: 11/23/2006 7:50AM - 0.7 Hours Total Time
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "glen matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Firewall penetration |
Hi Don
> I have the need to bring several bundles of wire through my RV-7
firewall.
> I have some of the two-piece, stainless, firewall shields, but can't help
> but think there is a better way. Any great ideas out there [Question]
I used Bob's stainless grab bar idea, and really like it. Search the
archives, look at
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Firewall_Penetration/firewall.html , and
consider using the cut off ends of a handicapped shower grab bar. I think
I paid $14 or $17 for the shortest one I could find, which of course
yielded up 2 penetration fittings. One is big enough to handle 3 heavy
engine / prop control cables, 2 bowdens, the MP line, a #2 battery cable,
and the power feed from the alternator. The other one on the other side of
the fire wall has all the sensor lines. I'm quite happy with the way it
has turned out-
glen matejcek
aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jerb <ulflyer(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED backlit rocker switches |
You may want to look into the light strips. Come in different
lengths and sizes. Low power consumption.
jerb
At 10:20 AM 12/7/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>Hey all -
>
>I've been monitoring this list for awhile now - I'm building an RV-10 -
>and I wondered if any of the electron whizzes could help me. I'm trying
>to find a good source for custom legend LED backlit rocker switches for
>my project.
>
>I've historically done quite a bit of night flying, and after I got my
>instrument rating, which I did 100% at night (with the one exception of
>the checkride!) I vowed that I would not accept anything less than
>complete readability of all controls and switches at night in the
>cockpit. It just seemed so crazy that I had to juggle 3 flashlights in
>the cockpit - one red led flash attached to my headset, a small red
>maglite for cocpit instruments farther away from the pilot position, and
>one more large one to look for ice on the airframe (yikes!). then I'd
>get into my car after a long night of flying, turn on the lights, and
>have no trouble reading any of the controls or switches. This is how I
>want my aircraft to be! All controls self illuminating, and a
>flashlight for emergency use only! Seems so simple, but I've been
>confounded at every turn. Anyone have any suggestions?
>
>Thanks in advance!
>
>cj
>#40410
>fuse
>www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
| From: | "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com> |
Stan,
You're right in that there was a lot of circling of the opinion vultures
before the meat was ripe to eat on this one--but it wasn't wasted time.
As you pointed out, my question was 'how to do it' and not 'is it a good
idea'. Eventually, the first question was answered though the early
hits addressed the second question, which was not asked. However, as
said, that was not wasted time. All education and wisdom on this site
is not necessarily committable to a formula.
The opinions expressed, some relevant, others not, at least got me
thinking...which is a good thing for all of us to do when we are doing
something non-standard. Sometimes, we get so focused on a goal that our
mental blinders causes us to lose sight of the peripheral issues which
are raised for (re)consideration by some of the misdirected postings.
So, I dug through that pile of straw and stuff and found the pony. I
didn't like his color or his size, but he is what he is, so now I have
to decide what to do about him.
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Speedy11(at)aol.com
Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 12:45 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw
Mike Larkin,
I don't mean to be sarcastic, but you didn't answer any questions - at
least any questions that had been asked. Chuck asked about how to wire
his pitot heat so as to have the option to cycle from low heat to high
heat.
I don't agree with Chuck regarding the wisdom of using a lower heat
setting to save power in IMC icing conditions if the alternator fails,
but his question is not, "Should I use a lower heat setting?" His
question is, "How do I wire so to obtain my choice of heat settings?"
We all have personal stories to tell. They aren't relevant to Chuck's
question unless they are related to how one wires one's electrical
system to obtain high-low pitot heat.
My personal philosophy regarding icing conditions in SE piston powered
aircraft is exactly the same as yours. But, my philosophy about flying
in icing conditions is not relevant to Chuck's question.
The only answer or opinion that Chuck wants is the one that describes to
him how to wire his electrical system to permit high and low pitot heat
settings.
We have to leave it to him to decide if such a system is adequate and if
it is wise to employ it in icing conditions.
Regards,
Stan Sutterfield
The only way I can answer this question is to tell a story.
First,
flying in the ice is something many pilot do every year and
sometimes
often. If you know what you=92re doing and are prepared then
the risks
are minimal. I have been flying in ice with airplanes that are
able to
handle it for better then 20 years. It=92s not like flying on a
sunny
day. But once you get use to it and prepare for it, it=92s not
that big
of a deal. A few words of advice, no two icing days are the
same. Only
experience will help you here. My personal feeling on ice in
piston
powered planes, you don=92t have many out when the weather gets
bad.
When
in ice greater then light find a place to land ASAP.
As for you electric question; First the easy answer is to put a
bigger
battery in the airplane. Second, why would you think that using
less
power for pitot heat is going to be any better then turning the
pitot
heat off all together? Unless you run a thermal equation on the
speed,
temperature, and heat (layman=92s terms) required to guarantee
the
anti-ice properties needed, then everything your doing is just a
big
guess anyway. And I guessing that since I have to go to the
book to do
said equation thoroughly, I would guess the electrical formula
by
comparison would be a piece of cake. I know this is not what
you want
to hear but the facts are the facts. Thee it to him to decide
if such a system is adequate and if it is wise to employ it in icing
conditions.
Regards,
Stan Sutterfield
The only way I can answer this question is to tell a story.
First,
flying in the ice is something many pilot do every year and
sometimes
often. If you know what you=92re doing and are prepared then
the risks
are minimal. I have been flying in ice with airplanes that are
able to
handle it for better then 20 years. It=92s not like flying on a
sunny
day. But once you get use to it and prepare for it, it=92s not
that big
of a deal. A few words of advice, no two icing days are the
same. Only
experience will help you here. My personal feeling on ice in
piston
powered planes, you don=92t have many out when the weather gets
bad.
When
in ice greater then light find a place to land ASAP.
As for you electric question; First the easy answer is to put a
bigger
battery in the airplane. Second, why would you think that using
less
power for pitot heat is going to be any better then turning the
pitot
heat off all together? Unless you run a thermal equation on the
speed,
temperature, and heat (layman=92s terms) required to guarantee
the
anti-ice properties needed, then everything your doing is just a
big
guess anyway. And I guessing that since I have to go to the
book to do
said equation thoroughly, I would guess the electrical formula
by
comparison would be a piece of cake. I know this is not what
you want
to hear but the facts are the facts. The reason that the pitot
uses so
much power (in general) is that is what it takes to keep ice off
the
probe in 100% humidity at temperatures < 10dec C.
Sorry for the poor and somewhat sarcastic answer, but I think
Chuck
brought it out in me.
Regards,
Mike Larkin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf
Of
Speedy11(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 6:57 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw
Chuck,
You have just experienced the main thing I dislike about this
forum.
When you ask for advice or assistance, you will commonly get
critique on
why you should not do what it is you want to do. It takes
several
attempts at explaining that you don't care about opinions - you
simply
want assistance. For example, I've asked how to sample volts
and amps
in multiple places in my electrical system. I got "you don't
need to
know that info while you're flying." Regardless, I want to be
able to
do that so how can I do it? Answer: since I don't think you
should do
that I'm not going to tell you how to do it.
As you've discovered, getting an answer can be very frustrating.
Still, I've learned a lot about electrical stuff here and I
continue to
learn. So, I still find the forum of value.
I wish I had the answer for you - I would provide it. But, I
don't.
Hopefully, you will get an acceptable answer.
Stan Sutterfield
Okay, I appreciate everyone holding forth that it's stupid to
fly in
ice....I'm not that dumb, I only look it. However, the question
stands,
how does one knock down the heat and current draw. Richard
mentioned a
'strut switch'....whoever that is. Can someone enlighten us
non-electrical types. What I'm concerned about is being in the
clouds,
close to freezing and loose electrical--I'd just as soon not
have to
turn off the pitot heat because it's sucking the battery dry in
short
order; I'd rather it be in long order.
Chuck Jensen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Burnaby" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Decreasing current to DC Motor |
Thanks Matt.
No offense taken. Knowledge is knowledge.
I've found that most EFI systems are content to move copious amounts of
fuel and I think that it's because the gearotor pump design, in the size
that is found on cars, seems to move between 40 and 65 gph.One can find
pumps of slightly less capacity, but they are almost all fitted with
push on barbed connections. Mine are push-on at the intake (about 1 psi)
and threaded AN fitting on the high pressure end. One pump moves 46 gph
@ 45psi @ 7A through 1/4" line! Both push 78 gph. I need a single pump
output of about 30 gph.The problem is my single pump is at the edge of
cavitation; both on, and I can see air in the transparent intake tubing.
A fellow lister gave me a part # for a Napa pump that is the right
capacity, but the pump has barbed fittings and needs adaptation. I'm
probably going to go this route, but I thought I'd check with the List
to see if there was an electrical solution.
Pulse width modulation is a possibility but has it's own problems of
whacking the bus with surges and potentially causing problems with other
equipment.
JOhn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED backlit rocker switches |
In addition to a glareshield electrolumenescent strip (which I quite
like) and integral instrument lighting I wired a couple of $5. miniature
Home Depot LED gooseneck lights in series and put them on a dimmer. One
on each side of the cockpit above the doors. The gooseneck is about 3"
long. They originally contained little button cells and are intended to
clip onto a shirt pocket so that the little gooseneck LED can be pointed
where you need it. The light spreads out to about a 12" round beam by
the time it hits the panel. I have a separate overhead incandescent map
light so I don't normally leave the LED's on but they are sometimes
handy for illuminating specific switches and they are very low power
consumption in case of electrical problems or loss of other lighting.
They are wired to the battery bus. These are not ideal as I had to run
another ground wire down the gooseneck to isolate the ground wire from
the aluminum battery case. You could insulate the case from the airframe
I suppose. Seemed like a better idea than holding a flashlight in my
teeth though which I was determined not to do...
Switch lighting should really allow both identification AND being able
to see whether the switch is on or off at a glance. Heavy iron machines
often have backlit labeling and lighted 'on' indicators to achieve that.
Sometimes the 'on' indicator even confirms functionality such as nominal
current is flowing, or valve is open, rather than just indicating switch
position.
Ken
jerb wrote:
>
> You may want to look into the light strips. Come in different lengths
> and sizes. Low power consumption.
> jerb
>
> At 10:20 AM 12/7/2006, you wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Hey all -
>>
>> I've been monitoring this list for awhile now - I'm building an RV-10 -
>> and I wondered if any of the electron whizzes could help me. I'm trying
>> to find a good source for custom legend LED backlit rocker switches for
>> my project.
>>
>> I've historically done quite a bit of night flying, and after I got my
>> instrument rating, which I did 100% at night (with the one exception of
>> the checkride!) I vowed that I would not accept anything less than
>> complete readability of all controls and switches at night in the
>> cockpit. It just seemed so crazy that I had to juggle 3 flashlights in
>> the cockpit - one red led flash attached to my headset, a small red
>> maglite for cocpit instruments farther away from the pilot position, and
>> one more large one to look for ice on the airframe (yikes!). then I'd
>> get into my car after a long night of flying, turn on the lights, and
>> have no trouble reading any of the controls or switches. This is how I
>> want my aircraft to be! All controls self illuminating, and a
>> flashlight for emergency use only! Seems so simple, but I've been
>> confounded at every turn. Anyone have any suggestions?
>>
>> Thanks in advance!
>>
>> cj
>> #40410
>> fuse
>> www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetration |
| From: | "Don Owens" <springcanyon(at)methow.com> |
Thanks Glen - That's perfect - just what I was looking for. :)
Don Owens
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p409#80409
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sarg314 <sarg314(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: New Topic! Wire label-making machines |
This outfit has the rhinopro 3000 for $65. Says it prints on heat shrink.
>http://www.provantage.com/dymo-15605~7DYMO02H.htm
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "bob noffs" <icubob(at)newnorth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: New Topic! Wire label-making machines |
michael,
i am interested in the dymo labeler #5000 you have. how would it work
for labeling the panel? do the labels really stick? i also read
something about being able to print on shrink tube. is this true?
thanks in advance, bob noffs
----- Original Message -----
From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen)
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 8:50 PM
Subject: RE: [Spam] RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire
label-making machines
The kit I bought is The Dymo RhinoPro 5000:
http://global.dymo.com/enUS/ProductAccessories/RhinoPRO_5000_Hard_Case_Ki
t.html
If you scroll down to accessories you'll see that you can get label
cartridges that are actually shrink wrap tubing. They also have a
polyester label that is very durable. Look around and you can find the
kit for about $150.
Michael
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
springcanyon
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 2:53 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: [Spam] RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire
label-making machines
Michael, I am not familiar with these machines - how does it print on
shrink tubing?
Don Owens
Mark,
I have the Dymo. Works good, lasts long time. J Prints on a
shrink tube also.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Fuselage
In a message dated 12/07/2006 10:37:52 PM Central Standard Time,
stein(at)steinair.com writes:
I'm really confused and boggled
Stein- what do you guys use to label your wires? I've used Brady
lablemaker pro (dot matrix through ribbon) but machine is T-up and
looking for replacement, preferably one that prints shrink tube. One
RV-lister recommended the Dymo Rhino Pro 5000. Any other
recommendations out there from actual users of one of these type
machines?
And no, I'm not printing & cutting out itty bitty labels and slipping
them into little pieces of clear shrink tube- I need a one-shot machine
to get this done and move on...
Mark
www.aeroelectric.comwww.buildersbooks.comwww.kitlog.comwww.homebuilthelp.
comhttp://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigato
r?AeroElectric-List
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D Fritz <dfritzj(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | LED Strobe Lights |
How about these strobes? Has anyone looked into them? The appear to be LED based,
but also appear expensive. They also have integrated strobe/position lights.
http://www.flightcomponents.com/content/view/48/
Dan Fritz
---------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New Topic! Wire label-making machines |
They apparently sell some rather pricey heat shrink for it. 1/2, 3/8
and 1/4 inch flat widths. Is any of that going to grip a 22ga wire
very well?
I'm interested in this technology, but want to know more before I buy
any new toys.
-Bill B
On 12/9/06, sarg314 wrote:
>
> This outfit has the rhinopro 3000 for $65. Says it prints on heat shrink.
>
> >http://www.provantage.com/dymo-15605~7DYMO02H.htm
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fiveonepw(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: New Topic! Wire label-making machines |
In a message dated 12/9/2006 6:26:35 PM Central Standard Time,
sportav8r(at)gmail.com writes:
Is any of that going to grip a 22ga wire
very well?
>>>
They claim the 1/4" stuff will go down to 1.18mm- I measured some 22awg
tefzel at 1.25mm. Pretty close, but oughta work. Still not too tickled that it
only seems to print the tube on one side. Leaning towards the Brady ID Pal that
will print multiple rows that can be wrapped around the wire, plus if you
screw up, you can remove the old sticker and put on a new one without removing
the termination...
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | DYMO RhinoPRO3000 label writer |
I looked it up as suggested and believe it's useful BUT the price of heat
shrink comes out to about $5 a foot, or perhaps 75cents a label (mistakes
excepted). Rolls come in 5 foot lengths. Any- body find better source?
Ferg Kyle
Europa A064 914 Classic
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED Strobe Lights |
>How about these strobes? Has anyone looked into them? The appear to be
>LED based, but also appear expensive. They also have integrated
>strobe/position lights.
>
><http://www.flightcomponents.com/content/view/48/>http://www.flightcomponents.com/content/view/48/
>
>Dan Fritz
We had some meetings at RAC where the principal and their
rep did some presentations on this and other LED based
exterior lighting products. I wasn't on the evaluation team
tasked with looking into incorporation of the devices on
our aircraft . . . but maybe I could track them down and
ask about their findings. I'm unaware of any efforts to
get them on our airplanes at the moment.
We DO use the Wheelan white LED tail lights on several
models.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Prather <mprather(at)spro.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Pitot Current Draw |
Hey Chuck,
One more idea (I think I've read all of the other messages on this topic
- I haven't seen this idea before)... How about modifying the heating
element in the heater. Possibly a heating element from a more modest
pitot tube could be installed...
Matt-
Chuck Jensen wrote:
> Craig/Matt/Bob/Bob again/et al
> Thanks for the technical responses which transcends the proclamation
> that only dummies fly in ice. And Stein, you have a point if I was
> only trying to use some reject hand-me-down pitot and I was too cheap
> to get one of Gretz's very elegantly functional pitots. This isn't
> about functionality, this is about aesthetics. I have a sharkfin pitot
> off an old warbird that I use at the tippy-point of the Velocity. The
> sharkfin perfectly picks up the lines of the winglets, yadda,
> yadda.....trust me, it's just a personal preference.
> Unfortunately, the heating elements in it were obviously designed for
> use in cold weather areas. In the winters, when they saw this sucker
> coming in, the ramp and line crews left the warmth of their burning
> trash barrels to comeover and stand by the pitot where there was some
> real heat!!!
> My conclusion is if I want to keep the pitot (which I do), I either
> live with the current draw, which is really not a serious problem for
> the 60amp alternator and just hope I don't need it at the same time
> that I start suddenly have a shortage of electrons. While the resistor
> fix may work, because of the loss to the resistor, the overall
> amperage reduction is minimal.....kind of like having to spend a $100
> to get a $20 tax reduction.
> The more attractive alternative is duty cycle--assuming it doesn't put
> me in electron hell. Anyhow, I appreciate the many responses and the
> many tangents engaged. As to those who thought the thread went on too
> long and contain too much irrelevant material, just remember--that's
> why we sort through the pile of straw and horse s--t that was shoveled
> out of the horse barn with our bare hands---on the oft chance there
> might be a pony in there somewhere.
>
> Chuck Jensen
> * *
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *SteinAir, Inc.
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 07, 2006 11:31 PM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw
>
> Wow! This discussion has really taken on a mind of it's own....I see
> almost 41 posts in this thread! As usual and in my own sarcastic way,
> I'm really confused and boggled as to why we're even discussing this
> (and to the unbelievably detailed technical minutia that has arisen
> out of something like this)....when there is a perfectly good heated
> pitot on the market that does EXACTLY what you want it to do....it
> varies the current to the tube from .1 Amps to 7 Amps depending on
> it's own temperature. When it doesn't need the heat it just idles,
> when it does it shoves more power out there. Why re-invent the
> wheel...someone already has and his name is Warren Gretz! I swear,
> just reading all these posts will waste more time than the $400 and
> some odd bucks it takes to buy one brand new....no messing around with
> all kinds of crazy little electrical components...bolt it on and go!
> Just my 2 cents as usual!
> Cheers,
> Stein.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]*On Behalf
> Of* Chuck Jensen
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 05, 2006 7:18 AM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw
>
> Hi, Keith,
> That was exactly my thought process also. I didn't want a red hot
> branding iron to bore my way through ice cubes...just warm enough
> to keep the pitot stuffed full of rain water from freezing. If the
> icing is bad enough that it freezes over a warm-to-very warm
> pitot, I've got bigger problems that a red hot pitot won't solve.
> Since no ideas have been tossed out, I wonder if there is an
> efficient means of cycling the pitot heater on/off at some
> interval, such as on for 30 seconds, off for two minutes. This
> would reduce the total current draw if a person was in the soup,
> lost electrical and needed whatever extra time available to get to
> safety but didn't dare to turn off the pitot in marginal icing
> conditions.
> Chuck Jensen
> * *
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf
> Of *Keith Hallsten
> *Sent:* Monday, December 04, 2006 10:36 PM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw
>
> Chuck,
>
> I mounted a 28v Known Ice pitot on the nose of my Velocity.
> Since I have a 14 volt electrical system, its power consumption
> will be reduced by a factor of 4 (power = V * V / R). I figure
> that is sufficient for my purposes, because a Velocity is NOT a
> Known Ice type of airframe. If I should find enough ice to
> overwhelm my lightweight pitot heating system, I have bigger
> problems than the pitot. Im not flying yet, but thats my
> position for now.
>
> Actually, now that we all have GPS available to us, loss of pitot
> is not as critical as it used to be. With a fat margin to allow
> for wind, flying by groundspeed is generally a fair approximation.
>
> Regards,
>
> Keith Hallsten
>
>
> *Subject:* */ RE: Pitot Current Draw/*
> *From:* */ Chuck Jensen/** (**/_cjensen(at)dts9000.com_/*
> *)*
>
> *Date:* */ Mon Dec 04 - 12:06 PM/*
> *Wow, I must be hard-of-speaking (or writing). I concede that flying*
>
> *into icing when not so equipped is not a good idea, but if a person*
>
> *flies IFR in the winter most anywhere in the continental US,
> sooner or*
>
> *later, they'll pick up some ice. Even if my wings start looking like*
>
> *something that should be used to cool a gin and tonic, I don't
> want to*
>
> *lose air speed indication. Granted, I may not know what my new stall*
>
> *speed is, but I would like to know WHAT my speed is...and I can't do*
>
> *that with a pitot full of ice. *
>
> *So, the question on the table is still the same, is there a way off*
>
> *'turning down the heat' and reducing current draw? *
>
> *Chuck Jensen*
>
>
>*
>
>href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
>href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
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>
>*
>
>*
>
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>
>*
>
>*
>
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>
>*
>
>*
>
>
>*
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "MLAS" <MLAS(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
Stan,
You are correct, I was having some fun expressing my view that in my
opinion this issue as a builder or flyer is not something worth
pursuing. For the real down and dirty instrument flyer this issue just
over complicates the business of flying safe to save a few amps. A
simple point, a pitot heat system is a safety item much like a fire
extinguisher (KISS).
I have a different philosophy then many on this site but not all. I
answer questions using a strait forward set of rules meeting My basic
philosophy. I work towards putting things into the field that work and
can be maintained buy the builder. My work goes directly to the
builder who is working to get a complete project into the air that is
safe, maintainable, reliable, and cost effective both in time and money.
But I do respect the more micro of you folks on this board. Without
your work and ideas we would not have the wonderful opportunities we
have today. So we coexist.
My main focus in aviation is safety of operation, both in maintenance
and flight.
Mike Larkin
----- Original Message -----
From: Speedy11(at)aol.com
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 10:44 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw
Mike Larkin,
I don't mean to be sarcastic, but you didn't answer any questions - at
least any questions that had been asked. Chuck asked about how to wire
his pitot heat so as to have the option to cycle from low heat to high
heat.
I don't agree with Chuck regarding the wisdom of using a lower heat
setting to save power in IMC icing conditions if the alternator fails,
but his question is not, "Should I use a lower heat setting?" His
question is, "How do I wire so to obtain my choice of heat settings?"
We all have personal stories to tell. They aren't relevant to Chuck's
question unless they are related to how one wires one's electrical
system to obtain high-low pitot heat.
My personal philosophy regarding icing conditions in SE piston powered
aircraft is exactly the same as yours. But, my philosophy about flying
in icing conditions is not relevant to Chuck's question.
The only answer or opinion that Chuck wants is the one that describes
to him how to wire his electrical system to permit high and low pitot
heat settings.
We have to leave it to him to decide if such a system is adequate and
if it is wise to employ it in icing conditions.
Regards,
Stan Sutterfield
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Beusch?= <andre.beusch(at)bluewin.ch> |
| Subject: | Garmin GNS430 Nav board repaired twice |
I have a Garmin GNS430 in my Glasair Super II.
The comm is connected to a dipole antenna in the vertical stabilizer,
the nav is connected directly (no splitter) to the dipole antenna in the
horizontal stabilizer.
Both are the antennas that were provided by Stoddard Hamilton, the kit
manufacturer, and were installed as per the instruction manual. The
antennas perform well.
Both times, the VOR/LOC lost 30 dB of sensitivity, apparently the input
stage was destroyed.
The first repair cost me about $1000, the second was warranty.
I wonder if someone had this problem with any kind of nav receiver.
Garmin said that it could have been overloaded by the comm transmission
because the antennas are to close to each other.
(they don't say anything about this in the installation manual)
Many people use a splitter for NAV/glideslope, so their receiver gets
less signal and would perhaps not be exposed to this problem.
As an electronics engineer, I'd like to understand this and will make a
measurement of the power that actually gets in the Nav receiver. I have
a 250 MHz oscilloscope for that.
This nav receiver should pass RTCA DO-196, if someone has these
documents handy, I'd be interested to see what the damage input power
should be.
I also consider putting a 6dB attenuator or an RF limitter on the Nav
antenna input.
Any opinions?
Thanks, --Andre Beusch
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot Current Draw |
Thanks, Bob. I'd never heard that term before. Didn't know about the
Tripacers either and I owned one!
Stan Sutterfield
"Cockpit referenced" is a specific term for "vented to
cockpit atmosphere" . . . which is what the vast majority
of alternate static sources do.
The piper Pacer and Tri-Pacer didn't have static systems.
The altimeter was simply mounted to the panel and vented
to cockpit as was any VSI and/or altitude encoders added
at later dates.
Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric Parlow" <ericparlow(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | GNS430 VLOC/GPS wiring |
A friend has a GNS430 with an HSI in his RV8A.
He's starting to train for IFR in it.
When he switches from VLOC to GPS tracking the HSI does not switch to track
the GPS waypoint.
It continues to track the VOR or Localizer.
Is this a wiring issue?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob C. " <flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GNS430 VLOC/GPS wiring |
It doesn't sound like wiring to me?? There are a number of
'configuration' menus that make everything work. I would talk to a
quailfied avionics shop, Garmin or the company that made the HSI and
see what they think?
Regards,
Bob in SE Iowa
On 12/11/06, Eric Parlow wrote:
>
> A friend has a GNS430 with an HSI in his RV8A.
> He's starting to train for IFR in it.
>
> When he switches from VLOC to GPS tracking the HSI does not switch to track
> the GPS waypoint.
> It continues to track the VOR or Localizer.
> Is this a wiring issue?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rich Dodson <r_dodson(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Cherokee Panel Standard Six Pack Conversion |
Ladies and Gents,=0A=0AI have my eye on an older Cherokee 180 (1963) with t
he older instrument layout common to that vintage. Wondering if anyone has
any experience converting that layout to the standard "six pack" via a cer
tified repair station. I know this has been done many times on other aircr
aft and in this case all the instruments are in place, but they are in the
wrong places. How much would this change cost (ballpark) ?=0A=0AThanks!=0A
Rich
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "PIAVIS" <piavis(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Z-13 v. SD-8 distribution Diagrams |
I'm in the process of wiring up the SB005-1 (S704-1?) relay with the SD-8
volt regulator and the OVM. The SD-8 distribution diagram (Dwg 504-500 rev
E, 9/29/04) seems to differ from the Z-13 diagram and I'm wondering which to
follow. Dwg. 504-500 refers to the relay as SB005-1, and elsewhere, it looks
like the part number is S704-1. I'm not sure if these are one in the same or
not.
The photo at http://www.bandc.biz/S704-1_tips.html is even different and
includes an additional diode installed where the OVM-14 should be installed.
Anyone have a good diagram or guidance on which drawing is correct? I'm
thinking that Z-13 may be the correct drawing for the application.
Jim
-7 Wiring
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cherokee Panel Standard Six Pack Conversion |
Rich, I have a 1963 Comanche which had the old "Shotgun" instrument array.
I had it redone in a modern sixpack with a radio stack, full IFR. Made my
own padded leather panel covers. That was in 1990. I recall about $10,000.
Well worth it. LRE
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GNS430 VLOC/GPS wiring |
On 11 Dec 2006, at 01:01, Eric Parlow wrote:
>
>
> A friend has a GNS430 with an HSI in his RV8A.
> He's starting to train for IFR in it.
>
> When he switches from VLOC to GPS tracking the HSI does not switch
> to track the GPS waypoint.
> It continues to track the VOR or Localizer.
> Is this a wiring issue?
Which make and model HSI? Is this one of the HSIs that is covered in
the GNS400 Series Installation Manual?
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Garmin GNS430 Nav board repaired twice |
12/12/2006
Hello Andre, I am trying to better understand your antenna connections.
You wrote: "The comm is connected to a dipole antenna in the vertical
stabilizer,
the nav is connected directly (no splitter) to the dipole antenna in the
horizontal stabilizer."
The GNS 430 box has two separate inputs for VHF nav and glide slope. As you
say this is frequently done by using one VHF nav antenna and then splitting
that input just before it enters the GNS 430 box.
When you say that your nav is connected directly (no splitter) to the
antenna does that mean that you are also feeding the glide slope input
directly from some separate glide slope antenna?
What is the status of the unit now? You have it back repaired and are not
using it for concern over damaging it again with comm transmissions or ---?
Comant industries has a wide array of couplers that you might consider using
to combine and or split inputs to your GNS 430 from nav / glide slope
antennas in order to protect the input stages from excessive comm
transmission inputs.
http://www.comant.com/home.cgi?ua=sgroup&crit=Couplers/Diplexers/Combiners
OC
> From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Beusch?= <andre.beusch(at)bluewin.ch>
> Subject: Avionics-List: Garmin GNS430 Nav board repaired twice
>
>
> I have a Garmin GNS430 in my Glasair Super II.
> The comm is connected to a dipole antenna in the vertical stabilizer,
> the nav is connected directly (no splitter) to the dipole antenna in the
> horizontal stabilizer.
> Both are the antennas that were provided by Stoddard Hamilton, the kit
> manufacturer, and were installed as per the instruction manual. The
> antennas perform well.
> Both times, the VOR/LOC lost 30 dB of sensitivity, apparently the input
> stage was destroyed.
> The first repair cost me about $1000, the second was warranty.
> I wonder if someone had this problem with any kind of nav receiver.
> Garmin said that it could have been overloaded by the comm transmission
> because the antennas are to close to each other.
> (they don't say anything about this in the installation manual)
> Many people use a splitter for NAV/glideslope, so their receiver gets
> less signal and would perhaps not be exposed to this problem.
> As an electronics engineer, I'd like to understand this and will make a
> measurement of the power that actually gets in the Nav receiver. I have
> a 250 MHz oscilloscope for that.
> This nav receiver should pass RTCA DO-196, if someone has these
> documents handy, I'd be interested to see what the damage input power
> should be.
> I also consider putting a 6dB attenuator or an RF limitter on the Nav
> antenna input.
>
> Any opinions?
>
>
> Thanks, --Andre Beusch
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Pitot Current Draw |
>
>Geeez, I guess that's why I ask electrical questions. Now that I think
>about it, it makes sense...size does matter.
>
>Chuck Jensen
>
>
>Bob W. wrote...
>
>Shorten the element if you would like MORE heat, lesson I learned as a
>teenager. I had a piece of nichrome wire that I wanted to get red hot.
>(I have no memory of what I was trying to do other than that.) I
>stretched the wire out and clamped on an electric cord I could plug into
>the wall. It got a little hotter than I wanted. Well, I knew ohms law
>and I knew P=I^2*R so the obvious solution was to cut R in half to get
>half power. When I plugged it in, that sucker got white hot so fast I
>didn't have time to blink. Haven't had much trouble keeping ohms law
>straight since. :)
Pitot tube heaters are not like those used in your toaster.
See:
http://tinyurl.com/yyuted
The heater wires are wound on a flexible mandrel contained within
the "tube" visible in these pictures. The winding pitch is varied so
as to put optimized heat sources at various places throughout the
pitot-tube structure. Lots of heat in the probe, not so much around
the corner, lots more in the mast.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid |
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid
I have a Jabiru 3300 and have a 702-1 starter contactor from B&C. Looking
at Z-20, from aeroelectric, they are running the 4 AWG wire to the starter
solenoid. It looks like the "solenoid" supplied by Jabiru is really just
another contactor. It is wired and works the same as the 702-1 but with
out the diode. If I hook it up as depicted in Z-20 all I will be doing is
to energize the coil on the Jabiru supplied solenoid with the 4 AWG wire
from the 702-1. It sure looks to me that all I will be doing is putting
two contactors in series. I am not sure of the value in this. I am
considering just leaving off the Jabiru solenoid and connecting the 702-1
directly to the starter.
Is this smart or is there something I am missing?
First, the Z-figures are ARCHITECTURE drawings and not intended
to dictate wire sizes, breaker/fuse sizes, or equipment choices.
They are simply foundations upon which your own system details
are laid.
The apparent "dual starter contactors" anomaly you've cited
is discussed in the article at:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/strtctr.pdf
Depending on what features are specific to the starter supplied
with your Jabiru, the specifics illustrated in Z-20 may not
apply.
If your existing starter is fitted with the hi-inrush, pinion
engagement mechanism typical of B&C starters, then the "dual
contactor" philosophy -or- the Starter Boost relay shown
in Z-22 is recommended to enhance the service life of your
starter push button or switch.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Conversion to Experimental |
>
>----------
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck
>Jensen
>Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 5:13 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Conversion to Experimental
>In reading about conversion of six-packs and upgrading panels in older
>planes, et al, if a person wants to upgrade to a glass panel, is there a
>reason more people don't just slap an "Experimental" label on the
>certified plane and put in a non-certified panel, such as GRT, TruTrak, et
>al. It's understood that the plane is devalued by making it
>"Experimental" but then, the value is also increased with the upgraded
>panel. And, with the difference between a certified glass panel and a
>very good, but non-certified glass panel, you can stick the difference
>($30,000 - $50,000?) in your pocket and buy a lot of gas.
>
>Since it doesn't seem to be done by many people, I must be missing something?
Yeah, it's called the FAA. I've placed many an x-ticket
on a certified ship for the purpose of conducing engineering
research. But the FAA's stance x-ed TC aircraft for
the purpose of conducing engineering tests and the
airplane cannot be used as a standard TC aircraft until
restored to certified condition. We have a small fleet
of experimental aircraft used for research and development
but these aircraft cannot be used for anything except
company engineering business.
The "experimental" tag on OBAM aircraft gives rise to a lot
of mis-understanding. 99% of the OBAM aircraft flying
are obviously not experimental but Owner Build and/or
Maintained. In Canada, you can de-certify an older out-of-
production aircraft and begin to own, operate, modify and
maintain it as if it were an RV or Kitfox. These
aircraft are far from "experimental" in the engineering
and development sense of the word. The owners are simply
attempting to breath new life into older airplanes by modernizing
some of its features.
Converting an older airplane to a new 6-pack or glass-panel
configuration is often done by qualified shops under a
337. The gentleman who initially inquired about this can
enlist the help of an AI, local flying-fuzz and install any
new gear and panel arrangements that have been used on
other aircraft with no more than the usual bureaucratic
difficulties. It's done all the time.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_Delsol?= <michele.delsol(at)microsigma.fr> |
| Subject: | DYMO RhinoPRO3000 label writer |
I've been using the Rhyno 5000 - I find that I have to be really careful on
printing the labels - many in a single pass so as not to minimize waste. The
yellow heat shrink tubes are really expensive and if not careful, one can go
through them at a pace which makes the labels a significant cost item. For
that matter, it is much like colour printers - cheap printer but you get
whacked on the cartridges. This being said, I find the Rhyno a great product
and time saver.
Michele
RV8 - Finishing
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus
Kyle
Sent: dimanche 10 dcembre 2006 16:06
Subject: AeroElectric-List: DYMO RhinoPRO3000 label writer
I looked it up as suggested and believe it's useful BUT the price of heat
shrink comes out to about $5 a foot, or perhaps 75cents a label (mistakes
excepted). Rolls come in 5 foot lengths. Any- body find better source?
Ferg Kyle
Europa A064 914 Classic
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Earl_Schroeder <Earl_Schroeder(at)juno.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Conversion to Experimental |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
In Canada, you can de-certify an older out-of-
production aircraft and begin to own, operate, modify and
maintain it as if it were an RV or Kitfox.
I'm wondering if this 'de-certified' aircraft can then be moved to the
US and that designation remains?
If so, perhaps I can take my 'ol C-150 up there for a visit and upgrade??
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_Delsol?= <michele.delsol(at)microsigma.fr> |
| Subject: | New Topic! Wire label-making machines |
Affirmative - it does grip 22 with the smallest heat shrink tube they have.
I've done it.
Michele
RV8 - Finishing
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Boyd
Sent: dimanche 10 dcembre 2006 01:24
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines
They apparently sell some rather pricey heat shrink for it. 1/2, 3/8
and 1/4 inch flat widths. Is any of that going to grip a 22ga wire
very well?
I'm interested in this technology, but want to know more before I buy
any new toys.
-Bill B
On 12/9/06, sarg314 wrote:
>
> This outfit has the rhinopro 3000 for $65. Says it prints on heat shrink.
>
> >http://www.provantage.com/dymo-15605~7DYMO02H.htm
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike" <mlas(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Conversion to Experimental |
To all,
Rick was right on the money. If and when you convert an airplane=92s
airworthiness from Standard to Experimental many things change. The
first issue is what type of Experimental Certificate will you apply for
and be approved for? In order to convert an airplane you must have a
new Airworthiness Certificate issued which will be accompanied by a list
of Limitations for operation. The list of limitations are covered by
Advisory Circulars which are generally not regulatory for part 91
operations but the limitations issued with the new airworthiness
certificate will change that. The list of limitations issued are
derived from the AC=92s that cover these types of conversions. There is
some latitude with these limitations but you never know until you do it.
Unless you get an FAA inspector or DAR if authorized to issue an
Experimental Exhibition Certificate (many are not) to cope a previously
issued set of limitations without question, you will be subjected to
their interpretation of the AC=92s in question.
As for valuation, that is very subjective. If you take a new $1,000,000
Baron and are able to convert it to an Experimental certificate I would
think you would loose as much as 75% or more of the original value due
to the new limitations and insurance issues. But if you take an old
Cherokee 140 and upgrade it with a bigger engine, new glass panel, IR
video, ect. The overall selling amount would improve but would most
likely not cover the cost of the improvements and therefore the value
would remain close to the same..
Here is a different view, what if you bought an old Cherokee 140 for
$10,000 with an old panel and run out engine. Your good with you hands
and can do good work that an A&P would like. Let=92s assume that you
were
able to convert the aircraft Certification to Experimental Exhibition
with very relaxed limitations. You and you=92re A&P friend overhaul the
engine, repair cracks, corrosion, broken parts (for example: door
handles, head liners, switches, lighting, seats), up graded the avionics
to a new glass panel, and certify during the condition inspection the
aircraft airworthy. You would be able to do this any way you would like
within the scope of the newly issued limitations. If you had to do this
with a Standard Airworthiness Certificate this could be cost prohibitive
if you had to meet part 43 with a $10,000 airplane that is only worth
$20,000 in good condition with a Standard Certificate. This example
would be one reason I would consider a conversion to Experimental. But
as mentioned above you would have to have a good handle on the
re-certification process or one might find them selves with a 1500 pound
paper weight at the end of the day.
Mike Larkin
--
11/22/2006
--
11/22/2006
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | =?windows-1252?Q?Andr=E9_Beusch?= <andre.beusch(at)bluewin.ch> |
| Subject: | Re: Garmin GNS430 Nav board repaired twice |
>
> When you say that your nav is connected directly (no splitter) to the
> antenna does that mean that you are also feeding the glide slope input
> directly from some separate glide slope antenna?
Yes, one antenna for VOR in the horizontal stabilizer, and one for the
GS, on the floor behind the
baggage compartment.
>
> What is the status of the unit now? You have it back repaired and are
> not using it for concern over damaging it again with comm
> transmissions or ---?
I have disconnected the VOR antenna. I will install either a 6 dB
attenuator or an rf limiter and hope it will not happen again.
>
>
I have now measured the voltage across a 50 Ohms terminator at the VOR
antenna connector when transmitting with the GNS430 com (no modulation).
The maximum measured voltage in the com frequency range was about 3.5
Vpp (at 123 MHz), which equals to 1.24 Vrms.
That is 14.9 dBm, at 50 Ohms a power of 31mW.
The peak power at 70 % modulation would be 87 mW. (19.4 dBm)
I don't know the spec of the GNS430 nav receiver, but IMO, this level
should not be destructive.
--Andre
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cleones <cleone(at)rr1.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetration |
I saw Bob's idea and may adopt some of that, but then I think about
the rather large holes for the rudder bars to the nose wheel steering
and I'm stumped. My plane is a Zenith Zodiac and it looks impossible
to keep a fuel fed fire from blasting right in. Not a pleasant thought.
Cleone
At 12:21 PM 12/9/2006, you wrote:
>
>Thanks Glen - That's perfect - just what I was looking for. :)
>
>Don Owens
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p409#80409
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetration |
>
> I saw Bob's idea and may adopt some of that, but then I think about
> the rather large holes for the rudder bars to the nose wheel steering
> and I'm stumped. My plane is a Zenith Zodiac and it looks impossible
> to keep a fuel fed fire from blasting right in. Not a pleasant thought.
Older airplanes with such big rods did with sliding covers riding on the
rods and sliding against the FWL, or resorted to non-fire "socks", made
of leather for instance. This way movement is allowed without letting
gas or flame pass.
Why not have a try ? We have a Zenith in the hangar, and indeed the
firewall is as gas tight as a sieve...And once we even found the bars
buckled.
For variation on Bob's theme and suitable putty, I gathered some info here :
http://contrails.free.fr/engine_cpf.php
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetration |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
On the Zodiac you have two areas like that.
One is the nose wheel rods the other is the throttle rod penetrations,
Neither of them are easy to seal.
Frank
Zodiac 400 hours
RV7a 52hours
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Cleones
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration
I saw Bob's idea and may adopt some of that, but then I think about the
rather large holes for the rudder bars to the nose wheel steering and
I'm stumped. My plane is a Zenith Zodiac and it looks impossible to
keep a fuel fed fire from blasting right in. Not a pleasant thought.
Cleone
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cleones <cleone(at)rr1.net> |
| Subject: | Safe cabin heater |
>Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:42:51 -0600
>
>From: Cleone <cleone(at)rr1.net>
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Safe cabin heater?
As Bob said at least once, "people on this list are worried about
everything" or something close to that. In my mail today was an
advertisement about a new advanced quartz infrared portable
heater. It reminded my of a small unit that the office girls were
using in a local office to keep their feet and legs warm. They said
it really worked. This company claims more than I can believe but is
it worth looking into? www.edenpure.com I have survived over
5000 hours of flying exhaust type heaters and like a lot of people
have been concerned.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Earl_Schroeder <Earl_Schroeder(at)juno.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Safe cabin heater |
Cleones wrote:
> This company claims more than I can believe but is it worth looking
> into? www.edenpure.com
>
This is one sponsor of Paul Harvey. I believe it would work fine in a
residence... were you thinking in an aircraft? Earl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sarg314 <sarg314(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: DYMO RhinoPRO3000 label writer |
Michele:
Do you have to use a special type of heat shrink, or will any old
type work?
Michle Delsol wrote:
>
>I've been using the Rhyno 5000 - I find that I have to be really careful on
>printing the labels - many in a single pass so as not to minimize waste. The
>yellow heat shrink tubes are really expensive and if not careful, one can go
>through them at a pace which makes the labels a significant cost item. For
>that matter, it is much like colour printers - cheap printer but you get
>whacked on the cartridges. This being said, I find the Rhyno a great product
>and time saver.
>
>Michele
>RV8 - Finishing
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Conversion to Experimental |
On 12 Dec 2006, at 10:53, Earl_Schroeder wrote:
>
>
> Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> In Canada, you can de-certify an older out-of-
> production aircraft and begin to own, operate, modify and
> maintain it as if it were an RV or Kitfox.
>
> I'm wondering if this 'de-certified' aircraft can then be moved to
> the US and that designation remains?
>
> If so, perhaps I can take my 'ol C-150 up there for a visit and
> upgrade??
>
Nope, once an aircraft is moved to the Owner Maintenance category,
you can't even cross the border into the US. The Owner Maintenance
category is not recognized by ICAO, so it is not recognized by any
other country.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob McCallum" <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Conversion to Experimental |
Bob is correct in his interpretation of Canadian regulation, but in answer
to your question, my understanding is NO! And not only that, but the FAA has
apparently also decided that planes which have followed this procedure are
no longer even allowed to fly into the US at all, even when still registered
in Canada and flown by a Canadian pilot. There are no such exclusions on
Canadian OBAM aircraft which are welcomed across the border with very little
hassle. Go figure. This fact has put a considerable damper on the
desirability of this conversion. Also under Canadian law, once the plane has
been de-certified under this rule it is then ineligible to ever be converted
back into the TC category.
Bob McC
Toronto, Canada
----- Original Message -----
From: "Earl_Schroeder" <Earl_Schroeder(at)juno.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Conversion to Experimental
>
> Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> In Canada, you can de-certify an older out-of-
> production aircraft and begin to own, operate, modify and
> maintain it as if it were an RV or Kitfox.
>
> I'm wondering if this 'de-certified' aircraft can then be moved to the
> US and that designation remains?
>
> If so, perhaps I can take my 'ol C-150 up there for a visit and upgrade??
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rich Dodson <r_dodson(at)yahoo.com> |
Got your message Rob...too many folks out in their shops building I guess!
Wish I were one of them! LOL!=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom:
Rob Wright =0ATo: rv10-list(at)matronics.com; Rob Wr
ight ; aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Tu
esday, December 12, 2006 6:50:09 PM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: quiet=0A
=0A=0AI don=A2t normally see so little activity on the list or in my inbox,
so here=A2s a test email. My service has migrated some of its services an
d I don=A2t trust it yet.=0A =0ARob Wright=0ARV-10 Fuse=0A =0ADo not archiv
========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Conversion to Experimental |
Kelly McMullen wrote:
> Experimental Exhibition, limited to flying to airshows, exhibitions, etc
> which have to be reported, may be restricted, no flight over congested
> areas, etc. Probably prohibits pax beyond "required" crew as well.
>
"Limited" is a subjective term in this case.
First, you're given a practice area that is something line 100 mile
radius or so. The category includes a lot of fast airplanes, and the
pilots really do need a large area to practice for proficiency. This is
actually a good provision.
Then at the beginning of each year, you tell the FAA all the flyins that
you might want to attend. No need to restrict yourself, just tell them
you might want to go to all of 'em. There's also no penalty if you
don't quite make it there and have to stop somewhere short of the
destination.
Finally, for the most part, there is no restriction on passengers just
for it being an exhibition plane.
I've heard that the FAA is cracking down on this category, but
historically the restrictions have been a paper tiger. You can pretty
much do whatever a normal GA pilot would do, you just have to take a
couple more steps to cover your tracks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Riley <richard(at)RILEY.NET> |
| Subject: | Re: Safe cabin heater |
At 08:21 PM 12/12/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>And I live in New Jersey and have a bridge for sale cheap near New York...
>Does this "work"? Yes, it puts out heat - the exact same amount any
>other electric heater of the same wattage does. It might be safer
>than other heaters if it really operates at a lower temperature, but
>a watt is a watt.
>
>It wouldn't even "work" in your airplane because it requires 120V, not 12V.
If you want to stay warm with a 12v electrical system, look into
electric snowmobile pants and jackets.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net> |
| Subject: | Safe cabin heater |
Or look at heated seat inserts here
http://www.classicaerodesigns.com/web/public/Products/ProductDetail.asp?Prod
uctID=37&ProductCategory=Accessories&ProductCategoryID=1
Or use motorcycle clothes that plug into 12 volt accessory outlet, very
warm. Very low power consumption because its close to your skin and covered
by your outer clothes.
Bevan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Riley
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Safe cabin heater
-->
At 08:21 PM 12/12/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>And I live in New Jersey and have a bridge for sale cheap near New York...
>Does this "work"? Yes, it puts out heat - the exact same amount any
>other electric heater of the same wattage does. It might be safer than
>other heaters if it really operates at a lower temperature, but a watt
>is a watt.
>
>It wouldn't even "work" in your airplane because it requires 120V, not 12V.
If you want to stay warm with a 12v electrical system, look into electric
snowmobile pants and jackets.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Riley <richard(at)RILEY.NET> |
| Subject: | Re: Conversion to Experimental |
At 01:09 AM 12/13/2006, you wrote:
>Then at the beginning of each year, you tell the FAA all the flyins
>that you might want to attend. No need to restrict yourself, just
>tell them you might want to go to all of 'em. There's also no
>penalty if you don't quite make it there and have to stop somewhere
>short of the destination.
You can also update your list at any time. Like, for instance, the
night before you fly off across country, you fax them an update to
include your cross country proficiency flight.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_Delsol?= <michele.delsol(at)microsigma.fr> |
| Subject: | DYMO RhinoPRO3000 label writer |
You have to use the Rhyno 5000 cartridges - they come as yellow tubing which
has been flatened in several sizes.
Michele
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of sarg314
Sent: mercredi 13 dcembre 2006 02:01
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: DYMO RhinoPRO3000 label writer
Michele:
Do you have to use a special type of heat shrink, or will any old
type work?
Michle Delsol wrote:
>
>I've been using the Rhyno 5000 - I find that I have to be really careful on
>printing the labels - many in a single pass so as not to minimize waste.
The
>yellow heat shrink tubes are really expensive and if not careful, one can
go
>through them at a pace which makes the labels a significant cost item. For
>that matter, it is much like colour printers - cheap printer but you get
>whacked on the cartridges. This being said, I find the Rhyno a great
product
>and time saver.
>
>Michele
>RV8 - Finishing
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "glen matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Safe cabin heater |
Hi All-
>It wouldn't even "work" in your airplane because it requires 120V, not 12V.
IIRC, the Vari-eze crowd was installing 12V ceramic heaters to keep their
toes alive in the winter. Sorry, I don't recall any specifics, but I think
that those who employed this technology were happy with it. Then again,
they WERE in plastic airplanes... ; - )
glen matejcek
aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rtitsworth" <rtitsworth(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | DYMO RhinoPRO3000 label writer |
Just curious...
Does the 3000/5000 shrink tubing come rolled up into a special cartridge
along with an ink tape - or do you feed the flattened tubing in separately?
Has anyone experimented with flattening "regular" heat shrink tubing and
then trying to print/label on it? I think I even have some white "regular"
tubing that came flattened. Does anyone with a 3000 or 5000 have a picture
of the tubing before printing/cutting? How long is the flattened tubing
before printing/cutting? Is there any "leader" on it? Is there any waste
at the ends when printing? How do the small sizes stay centered when
printing?
Rick
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Conversion to Experimental |
| From: | "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com> |
Given the many postings about all the hurdles to conversions, one comes
away with the over-mastering impression that the FAA is THE hurdle. Not
that it's unsafe, unwise or stupid, but it's a bad idea because the FAA
says so. I can understand the FAA being control freaks for commercial
aviation--a lot of traveling people are involunatarily putting
themselves in situation out of their control and they deserve protection
from unscrupulous, unsafe operators. Whether the FAA accomplishes that
or not, some may argue with, but the intent is clear.
But as we step down the aviation food chain, why the FAA feels the need
to obsess over control of personal aircraft is less understandable. Is
it so outrageous an idea that if someone wants to put 6" letters
EXPERIMENTAL on an aircraft, that they shouldn't have great leeway in
what they do...much as the OBAM does? Owning a C150 that was not owner
built and is subsequently converted to Experimental is no different than
owning an RV that was built by someone else. Both have to be inspected
by an A&P. How is one more, or less, safe than the other?
With that said, and given the personality of the FAA, I stand amazed
(and thankful) that the 51% rule was reviewed and the repercussions seem
to have been minimal--to date. This initially looked very much like the
proverbial 'camel's nose under the tent' problem, but the FAA seemed to
show considerable restraint in reining in the most egregious examples
that were pushing the boundaries without going on a boundless witch
hunt.
Gads, if only the world were perfect!!
Chuck Jensen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Safe cabin heater |
The only 28v VariEz I worked on was for a builder in Canada who
wanted to fly in the wintertime . . . and wanted to use all-electric
heat. We put a 28v, 100A alternator on the airplane. About 5A of
that was used to run the airplane, 80+ amps were used to heat the
cabin. Most of the "toe warmers" offered by suppliers to OBAM aircraft
were selling 300W fan-heaters. This guy built a 2200 watt fan heater
and reported "usable" performance for all but the coldest days but
even this boss hog heater was too small until he spent a lot of time
sealing the cockpit.
Bob . . .
>
>
>
>Hi All-
>
> >It wouldn't even "work" in your airplane because it requires 120V, not 12V.
>
>IIRC, the Vari-eze crowd was installing 12V ceramic heaters to keep their
>toes alive in the winter. Sorry, I don't recall any specifics, but I think
>that those who employed this technology were happy with it. Then again,
>they WERE in plastic airplanes... ; - )
>
>glen matejcek
>aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
>
>
>--
>12/11/2006 4:32 PM
>
>
>-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Safe cabin heater |
Can't you still buy 12V hair dryers that the trailer campers used to use...?
Obviously, sealing the airframe is a prerequisite.......
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
>Sent: Dec 13, 2006 9:46 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Safe cabin heater
>
>
>The only 28v VariEz I worked on was for a builder in Canada who
>wanted to fly in the wintertime . . . and wanted to use all-electric
>heat. We put a 28v, 100A alternator on the airplane. About 5A of
>that was used to run the airplane, 80+ amps were used to heat the
>cabin. Most of the "toe warmers" offered by suppliers to OBAM aircraft
>were selling 300W fan-heaters. This guy built a 2200 watt fan heater
>and reported "usable" performance for all but the coldest days but
>even this boss hog heater was too small until he spent a lot of time
>sealing the cockpit.
>
>Bob . . .
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>Hi All-
>>
>> >It wouldn't even "work" in your airplane because it requires 120V, not 12V.
>>
>>IIRC, the Vari-eze crowd was installing 12V ceramic heaters to keep their
>>toes alive in the winter. Sorry, I don't recall any specifics, but I think
>>that those who employed this technology were happy with it. Then again,
>>they WERE in plastic airplanes... ; - )
>>
>>glen matejcek
>>aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>12/11/2006 4:32 PM
>>
>>
>>
>>-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>>Checked by AVG.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Charles Kaluza" <charleskaluza(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Alternate feed to Lightspeed |
We have 360 hours on our RV6A with one mag and the Lightspeed II unit
which has worked well. We have had one kickback when starting on the
Lightspeed with a low battery. Spoke with Klaus about using my backup
battery as an additional power source for the unit. He thought it would
be fine as long as I used a Shottky diode (90SQ030) to prevent back feed
from the auxiliary battery to the main. The engine starts better on the
Lightspeed but we have been starting on the mag since the kickback.
I am debating using power from the E-Bus which I have activated during
start vs. running the Aux. power direct from the Aux. battery. The
second option would allow better charging of the Aux. battery. I worry
about excess current flow if the Aux. battery is low causing the 5 amp
fuse on the Lightspeed to blow. Any advice?
The Aux. battery is currently charged through my Rocky Mountain monitor.
Thanks for the help.
Kaluza
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cleones <cleone(at)rr1.net> |
| Subject: | Safe cabin heater |
At 12:43 AM 12/13/2006, you wrote:
>
>Or look at heated seat inserts here
>http://www.classicaerodesigns.com/web/public/Products/ProductDetail.asp?Prod
>uctID=37&ProductCategory=Accessories&ProductCategoryID=1
>
>Or use motorcycle clothes that plug into 12 volt accessory outlet, very
>warm. Very low power consumption because its close to your skin and covered
>by your outer clothes.
>
>Bevan
>Thanks to all who have made comments. I will stop in a motorcycle
>shop and see just what the power consumption is at the first
>opportunity. If they can keep their toes from getting frostbitten I
>won't make a heoric effort to close up every leak in the
>cabin. Ha. Cleone PS; Wonder what an 82 year old would look like
>in leather.?
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
>Riley
>Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 9:27 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Safe cabin heater
>
>-->
>
>At 08:21 PM 12/12/2006, you wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >And I live in New Jersey and have a bridge for sale cheap near New York...
> >Does this "work"? Yes, it puts out heat - the exact same amount any
> >other electric heater of the same wattage does. It might be safer than
> >other heaters if it really operates at a lower temperature, but a watt
> >is a watt.
> >
> >It wouldn't even "work" in your airplane because it requires 120V, not 12V.
>
>If you want to stay warm with a 12v electrical system, look into electric
>snowmobile pants and jackets.
>
>
>--
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "springcanyon" <springcanyon(at)methow.com> |
| Subject: | DYMO RhinoPRO3000 label writer |
And furthermore, is there a better printer out there that some are using to
mark shrink tubing?
Don Owens
Just curious...
Does the 3000/5000 shrink tubing come rolled up into a special cartridge
along with an ink tape - or do you feed the flattened tubing in separately?
Has anyone experimented with flattening "regular" heat shrink tubing and
then trying to print/label on it? I think I even have some white "regular"
tubing that came flattened. Does anyone with a 3000 or 5000 have a picture
of the tubing before printing/cutting? How long is the flattened tubing
before printing/cutting? Is there any "leader" on it? Is there any waste
at the ends when printing? How do the small sizes stay centered when
printing?
Rick
--
11:49 AM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternate feed to Lightspeed |
>We have 360 hours on our RV6A with one mag and the Lightspeed II unit
>which has worked well. We have had one kickback when starting on the
>Lightspeed with a low battery. Spoke with Klaus about using my backup
>battery as an additional power source for the unit. He thought it would
>be fine as long as I used a Shottky diode (90SQ030) to prevent back feed
>from the auxiliary battery to the main. The engine starts better on the
>Lightspeed but we have been starting on the mag since the kickback.
>
>I am debating using power from the E-Bus which I have activated during
>start vs. running the Aux. power direct from the Aux. battery. The second
>option would allow better charging of the Aux. battery. I worry about
>excess current flow if the Aux. battery is low causing the 5 amp fuse on
>the Lightspeed to blow. Any advice?
>
>The Aux. battery is currently charged through my Rocky Mountain monitor.
This issue (and others like it) have surfaced dozens of times
over the past 15 years. There are some products not designed to
work in the real world of airplanes. In this case, a software
fix to the product in question would prevent inadvertent kick-backs
due to low bus voltage or any other stimulus.
Adding an aux battery per Z-30 has always been the universal
Band-Aid for this phenomenon. Further, it offers an opportunity
to run other electrically-dependent engine accessories from
a "protected" supply.
No diodes needed (therefore no charging issues). Battery may
be any practical size needed to address your endurance needs.
Closing the contactor may be automatic . . .
See: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/LVWarn-ABMM.pdf
or manual or manual with warnings . . .
See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf
Any item needed to keep an engine running should be operated
from an always-hot battery bus . . . if you got bad smells in
the cockpit, you need to be able to shut EVERYTHING down
without having the engine quit.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-13 v. SD-8 distribution Diagrams |
>I m in the process of wiring up the SB005-1 (S704-1?) relay with the SD-8
>volt regulator and the OVM. The SD-8 distribution diagram (Dwg 504-500 rev
>E, 9/29/04) seems to differ from the Z-13 diagram and I m wondering which
>to follow. Dwg. 504-500 refers to the relay as SB005-1, and elsewhere, it
>looks like the part number is S704-1. I m not sure if these are one in the
>same or not.
>
>
>The photo at
><http://www.bandc.biz/S704-1_tips.html>http://www.bandc.biz/S704-1_tips.html
>is even different and includes an additional diode installed where the
>OVM-14 should be installed.
>
>
>Anyone have a good diagram or guidance on which drawing is correct? I m
>thinking that Z-13 may be the correct drawing for the application.
Both are.
The S704-1 and similar relays (like eggs, flour and milk)
are used in a variety of recipes and each recipe may treat
that ingredient in a manner that is not consistent elsewhere.
When you're baking a cake, you don't take a handful of recipes
from multiple sources and then attempt to resolve differences
between them. When someone publishes a recipe, you need
to know if it's from a credible source and if the recipe is
a demonstrated pathway to success. If those conditions are
satisfied, then run with it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric Parlow" <ericparlow(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GNS430 VLOC/GPS wiring |
The HSI is a Century NSD-1000(Electric)
Is there a unique config in the 430 for this HSI?
>
>A friend has a GNS430 with an HSI in his RV8A.
>He's starting to train for IFR in it.
>
>When he switches from VLOC to GPS tracking the HSI does not switch to
>track the GPS waypoint.
>It continues to track the VOR or Localizer.
>Is this a wiring issue?
Which make and model HSI? Is this one of the HSIs that is covered in the
GNS400 Series Installation Manual?
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill and Marsha" <docyukon(at)ptcnet.net> |
| Subject: | Elect. map guage |
I am wiring up my Grand Rapids EIS and found out that the model that I
have only has one aux input. I had planed on useing one input for Fuel
press. and the second for Manifold pressure. With only one aux input
available on my unit, I've decided to use it for fuel press. which
allows for a low press warning. MAP doesn't need a warning so I will
use a guage. I already have a Grand Rapids Manifold press sensor output
0 to 5volts. Does anyone know whair I can get an electric 2-1/4"
0-5volt map guage? Thanks Bill S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jae Chang" <jc-matronics_aeroelectric(at)jline.com> |
| Subject: | DYMO RhinoPRO3000 label writer |
Here is a P-touch labeller on sale for $68.43 at buy.com with free shipping.
http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=10372536&loc=101&sp=1&adid=17662
I don't have one, but just noticed it and remembered the discussion on this
list. It piqued my curiosity. I wanted to know what these labels actually looked
like, since I have never seen one.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002AZ2RY/pricegrabbercpc11-20/ref=nosim
The link on amazon.com has a better picture. It actually shows a few sample
wires with wire labels attached. It sure does look nice for labelling wires.
One comment on here, though, mentions that he thought quite a bit of the labels
were wasted.
I am probably years away from needing one.
Jae
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DYMO RhinoPRO3000 label writer |
Seems like a golden business opportunity for someone with a deluxe-o
labelling set-up: market a kit of pre-printed heat shrink wire labels
in various alpha and numeric combinations as well as commonly used
words, like comm1, nav2, audio in, etc. Printed in bulk, they're
bound to be more cost-effective than wasting alot of $5 / foot heat
shrink in your own home ;-)
-Bill B
On 12/13/06, Jae Chang wrote:
>
> Here is a P-touch labeller on sale for $68.43 at buy.com with free shipping.
>
> http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=10372536&loc=101&sp=1&adid=17662
>
> I don't have one, but just noticed it and remembered the discussion on this
> list. It piqued my curiosity. I wanted to know what these labels actually looked
> like, since I have never seen one.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002AZ2RY/pricegrabbercpc11-20/ref=nosim
>
> The link on amazon.com has a better picture. It actually shows a few sample
> wires with wire labels attached. It sure does look nice for labelling wires.
>
> One comment on here, though, mentions that he thought quite a bit of the labels
> were wasted.
>
> I am probably years away from needing one.
>
> Jae
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Annunciator Panel Update? |
| From: | "bcondrey" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com> |
Anybody got an update on the potential annunciator panel that was being discussed
several months ago?
Thanks
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=81412#81412
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GNS430 VLOC/GPS wiring |
My old copy of the Garmin Installation Manual shows how to wire the
NSD-1000 HSI, and there is no mention of any special issues. I
looked at the list of configuration menu items, and didn't see any
that were obviously relevant to your problem.
My installation manual shows a possible cause. The HSI lateral and
vertical deviations are supposed to be wired to pins on connector
4001. These pins send either VLOC or GPS deviations, depending on
what is selected. But, there are VLOC only lateral and vertical
deviation pins on connector 4006. I can't find a description of what
comes out of those pins if the GNS 430 is selected to GPS, but it is
possible that they would continue to send VLOC data. Maybe your
friend's HSI is connected to those pins rather than the ones on
connector 4001.
Who did the wiring?
Kevin Horton
On 13 Dec 2006, at 13:49, Eric Parlow wrote:
>
>
> The HSI is a Century NSD-1000(Electric)
> Is there a unique config in the 430 for this HSI?
>
>>
>> A friend has a GNS430 with an HSI in his RV8A.
>> He's starting to train for IFR in it.
>>
>> When he switches from VLOC to GPS tracking the HSI does not
>> switch to track the GPS waypoint.
>> It continues to track the VOR or Localizer.
>> Is this a wiring issue?
>
> Which make and model HSI? Is this one of the HSIs that is covered
> in the GNS400 Series Installation Manual?
>
> Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
> Ottawa, Canada
> http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Conversion to Experimental |
Well, a TC aircraft has to be inspected by an A&P?IA annually, unlike an
OBAM.
Chuck Jensen wrote:
> Owning a C150 that was not owner
> built and is subsequently converted to Experimental is no different than
> owning an RV that was built by someone else. Both have to be inspected
> by an A&P. How is one more, or less, safe than the other?
>
> W
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fiveonepw(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: DYMO RhinoPRO3000 label writer |
Since I started this discussion, thought I'd chime in on my purchase
decision. I've opted for a Brady ID Pal, for about $100. It doesn't print
heat-shrink tubing, but the Dymo Rhyno cartridges are pretty pricey for only 5
feet of
tube. The standard cartridges are smaller (less total length) on the Dymos,
and Brady claims there is less waste (margin) on their labels. We'll see..
My thinking is that if I really NEED a heat-shrink tube label, I'll make a
standard label and apply a clear shrink-tube around it. Usual suspects might be
anything FWF. But the MAJOR factor was that using the wrap-around labels,
you can print up to 4 (I think) lines of text on each label- a no-brainer since
this kind of label is vastly easier to read when you are standing on your head
with a maglite in your teeth trying to find the "E1-26A" wire in that bundle
going to the audio panel. Whatever. My best investigations indicate that the
heat-shrink tubes only get one line of text- not too handy, IMHO...
Will produce a "product evaluation report" upon reciept and use of Brady
label machine...
>From The PossumWorks in TN
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carl Morgan" <zk-vii(at)rvproject.gen.nz> |
| Subject: | Heat shrink labelling |
Just another approach.
We got 400 pairs of numbered heat shrink, 300 pairs of 3/32" and 100 pairs
of 1/4" - Each label being 3/4" long, www.merithian.com - total cost was
about US$60.
Every wire / cable then has one label on each end and a spreadsheet for look
up for wire size / termination / routing / function.
So far has worked really well.
Carl
--
ZK-VII - RV 7A QB - finishing? - New Zealand
http://www.rvproject.gen.nz/
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Sent: Thursday, 14 December 2006 4:17 p.m.
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: DYMO RhinoPRO3000 label writer
Since I started this discussion, thought I'd chime in on my purchase
decision. I've opted for a Brady ID Pal, for about $100. It doesn't print
heat-shrink tubing, but the Dymo Rhyno cartridges are pretty pricey for only
5 feet of tube. The standard cartridges are smaller (less total length) on
the Dymos, and Brady claims there is less waste (margin) on their labels.
We'll see..
My thinking is that if I really NEED a heat-shrink tube label, I'll make a
standard label and apply a clear shrink-tube around it. Usual suspects
might be anything FWF. But the MAJOR factor was that using the wrap-around
labels, you can print up to 4 (I think) lines of text on each label- a
no-brainer since this kind of label is vastly easier to read when you are
standing on your head with a maglite in your teeth trying to find the
"E1-26A" wire in that bundle going to the audio panel. Whatever. My best
investigations indicate that the heat-shrink tubes only get one line of
text- not too handy, IMHO...
Will produce a "product evaluation report" upon reciept and use of Brady
label machine...
From The PossumWorks in TN
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_Delsol?= <michele.delsol(at)microsigma.fr> |
| Subject: | Heat shrink labelling |
My 2 cents on wire numbering.
My schematics are identified via two letters ' FP for Flaps, PW for
electrical power etc.
Each wire on a particular schematic has its number, starting with 1 and
going up
Each wire belongs to a circuit identified by two letters, independent of
the
schematic, starting with AA, then AB, then AC etc.
All this of course is contained in spread sheets via an export of the
schematic wire identification labels.
Each wire is therefore numbered as follows: SSNNCC where SS is the
schematic, NN is the number and CC is the circuit. Hence when I look at
a
wire, for example FP34EA I know that it is wire #34 on the Flaps
schematic
and it belongs to circuit EA (power to the flap motor ' excel
spreadsheet).
The reason for labelling the circuit in is that two wires MUST be on the
same circuit when they join. Hence if I find two wires on a connector
with
labels FP34EA and PW45EA respectively then I know it is OK. But if the
circuits do not match ' they are not connected correctly. An EA wire
should
connect to another EA wire and nothing else. This is the key to render
connecting things together pretty well fool proof as far as connector
blocks
are concerned.
That=92s it ' I found it makes connecting things and tracing them
quite easy '
saves a lot of time and reduces the risk of a =91Smoke gets in your
eyes..=92.
Later on, when time comes for maintenance or trouble shooting, this
numbering system should be a great help. Of course, if the schematic is
wrong=85
Michele
RV8 - Finishing
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl
Morgan
Sent: jeudi 14 d=E9cembre 2006 07:08
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Heat shrink labelling
Just another approach.
We got 400 pairs of numbered heat shrink, 300 pairs of 3/32" and 100
pairs
of 1/4" - Each label being 3/4" long, www.merithian.com - total cost was
about US$60.
Every wire / cable then has one label on each end and a spreadsheet for
look
up for wire size / termination / routing / function.
So far has worked really well.
Carl
--
ZK-VII - RV 7A QB - finishing? - New Zealand
http://www.rvproject.gen.nz/
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Sent: Thursday, 14 December 2006 4:17 p.m.
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: DYMO RhinoPRO3000 label writer
Since I started this discussion, thought I'd chime in on my purchase
decision. I've opted for a Brady ID Pal, for about $100. It doesn't
print
heat-shrink tubing, but the Dymo Rhyno cartridges are pretty pricey for
only
5 feet of tube. The standard cartridges are smaller (less total length)
on
the Dymos, and Brady claims there is less waste (margin) on their
labels.
We'll see..
My thinking is that if I really NEED a heat-shrink tube label, I'll make
a
standard label and apply a clear shrink-tube around it. Usual suspects
might be anything FWF. But the MAJOR factor was that using the
wrap-around
labels, you can print up to 4 (I think) lines of text on each label- a
no-brainer since this kind of label is vastly easier to read when you
are
standing on your head with a maglite in your teeth trying to find the
"E1-26A" wire in that bundle going to the audio panel. Whatever. My
best
investigations indicate that the heat-shrink tubes only get one line of
text- not too handy, IMHO...
Will produce a "product evaluation report" upon reciept and use of Brady
label machine...
>From The PossumWorks in TN
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternate feed to Lightspeed (easy fix) |
Kaluza: That would be fine to drive the LSII from the
main bus and AUX battery with a Schottky diode. Here
is Klaus diagram I modified as I think you described.
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/7803/presentation1wm4.jpg
(you may get by with less than a 4.5 amp/hr battery,
depending on your endurance needs)
Skytec also has suggestions: http://www.skytecair.com/EI.htm
(notice the capacitor solution, independant of using the Aux
battery, a 50,000 mfd cost about $36.00. I like the battery better
if you already have it and its suitable.)
Is the rocky mountain really up to charging the
battery? You may have to decided that. There is no
reason why you can't let the airplane charge it is there?
What kind of aux battery is it?
The reason you may have got a kick back after 360
hours is your main battery is starting to get weaker
(from age) and possibly cold weather is affecting it.
Also the starter may be draining more with cold
weather starts, lowering the voltage during start. Never
the less having the ignition w/ AUX pwr during start will
fix it. AUX does not drive the starter so voltage stays up.
No EI is immune from start kick back with super low
December 04, 2006 - December 14, 2006
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-gk