AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-gl

December 14, 2006 - January 02, 2007



      supply voltage. The lightspeed happens to be one of the  
      best for starting because it takes very low voltage to  
      work, like 6 to 8 volts. Most planes should maintain  
      that during start. 
      
      Any EI on the market will have a problem including  
      the E-mag which has also had kick backs, if the voltage  
      is too low. On RV's we use a small battery and light  
      weight starters that take almost 300 amps to crank.
      
      With permanent magnet starters (which have high  
      current demands) and small Odyssey batteries we use in  
      RV's, you can get start irregularities. You can get a  
      bigger main battery or different starter as alternative  
      solutions.
      
      Wire wound starters uses less current. I highly  
      recommend the SkyTec High Torque or new NL model.  
      You probably have a Flyweight PM skytec?
      
      A bigger battery may not be possible or practical but 
      that may solve the issue as well with the starter. 
      
      The wiring of the Aux to the Lightspeed Plasma II is  
      the best option in my opinion.
      
      
      Feel free to ignore Bob's comments:
      
      >>"not designed to work in the real world of airplanes.   
      >>In this case, a software fix to the product in question  
      >>would prevent inadvertent kick-backs."
      
      It is not a software fix. That's 100% wrong. Bob has no  
      clue what he is talking about. The product is excellent,  
      in service for over a decade, very mature and works in  
      the real world of airplanes. Absurd comment, it's the  
      nature of any CDI ignition that relies on external power;   
      it needs min voltage. The lightspeed is no different.
      
      Also Bobs other comment can be ignored:
      
      >>"you need to be able to shut EVERYTHING down  
      >>without having the engine quit
      
      You have one mag so the engine quiting is not an  
      issue. You can always turn the EI off to save power.
      
      I don't recommend Z-30 or ABMM for your simple needs.
      
      >>Adding an aux battery per Z-30 has always been  
      >>the universal Band-Aid for this phenomenon. 
         
        This adds weight and complexity of a large contactor (relay).
      Bob loves to add wires, weight and switches. LOVES IT!
      
         
        ALL YOU NEED IS TO KEEP EI VOLTAGE UP DURING START.
         
        Cheers George (no space shuttle solution, simple is better)
         
      
      
      >From: "Charles Kaluza" <charleskaluza(at)verizon.net> 
      
      >We have 360 hours on our RV6A with one mag and  
      >the Lightspeed II unit which has worked well.  We  
      >have had one kickback when starting on the  
      >Lightspeed with a low battery.  Spoke with Klaus  
      >about using my backup battery as an additional  
      >power source for the unit.  He thought it would be  
      >fine as long as I used a Shottky diode (90SQ030) to  
      >prevent back feed from the auxiliary battery to the  
      >main.  The engine starts better on the Lightspeed but  
      >we have been starting on the mag since the  
      >kickback. I am debating using power from the E-Bus  
      >which I have activated during start vs. running the  
      >Aux. power direct from the Aux. battery.  The second  
      >option would allow better charging of the Aux.  
      >battery.  I worry about excess current flow if the Aux.  
      >battery is low causing the 5 amp fuse   
      >on the Lightspeed to blow.  Any advice?  
      
      >The Aux. battery is currently charged through my  
      >Rocky Mountain monitor. 
      
      >>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"  
        
      >>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternate feed to  
      >>Lightspeed  
      
      >>This issue (and others like it) have surfaced dozens  
      >>of times over the past 15 years. There are some  
      >>products not designed to work in the real world of  
      >>airplanes. In this case, a software fix to the product  
      >>in question would prevent inadvertent kick-backs  
      >>due to low bus voltage or any other stimulus.  
      
      >>Adding an aux battery per Z-30 has always been  
      >>the universal Band-Aid for this phenomenon.  
      >>Further, it offers an opportunity to run other  
      >>electrically-dependent engine accessories from a  
      >>"protected" supply.  
      
      >>No diodes needed (therefore no charging issues).  
      >>Battery may be any practical size needed to  
      >>address your endurance needs. Closing the  
      >>contactor may be automatic. 
      
      >>See:  
      http://aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/LVWarn-ABMM.pdf  
      
      >>or manual or manual with warnings . . .  
      
      >>See:  
      http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf  
      
      >>Any item needed to keep an engine running should  
      >>be operated from an always-hot battery bus . . . if  
      >>you got bad smells in the cockpit, you need to be  
      >>able to shut EVERYTHING down without having  
      >>the engine quit. 
      >>Bob 
         
      
      
      ---------------------------------
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 14, 2006
From: Dave <dave(at)abrahamson.net>
Subject: Re: Alternate feed to Lightspeed
This is not an electric solution to your issue but Mattituck, from whom I purchased my LSE II+ and Slick Mag-equipped TMX-O360, recommends always starting on the mag. By starting "better", I assume you mean your engine starts more quickly, with less current draw by the starter, but maybe the always-in-the-right-direction mag start ends up being a better deal... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 14, 2006
From: Todd Heffley <list(at)toddheffley.com>
Subject: DYMO RhinoPRO3000 label writer
> Has anyone experimented with flattening "regular" heat shrink tubing and then trying to print/label on it? Yes, It went like this. Take the platen roller out of a old Dot Matrix Printer. I found a LARGE printer at a second hand store. 5$. Turn several grooves of different sizes around the platen. I just chucked it into a drill press and used a razor sharp chisel. Took several attempts to shape the groove. modified paper feeder to feed 3/16" wide "Paper". I ordered white heat shrink, thin wall. (allied?). Being wrapped around the platen, it automaticallty flattens out. I did use a clothes iron to flatten the tubing, that was not helpfull. Laout a Word Document 1 Character wide, 3 feet long. Bold text, letter quality. Final report. It Worked. Very inexpensive compared to alternatives. A little hassle to set up. Then a got a job at a company that had a Wire Stamp machine I could use any time.... lost interest. Email me if you want more details. Dont overlook the simplicity of wrapping the heat shrink around a 1" plastic pvc pipe and writing on it with a Sharpie. The tube flattens out fine. Todd -- Todd Heffley todd(at)toddheffley.com (817)845-0145 ----- End forwarded message ----- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 14, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Alternate feed to Lightspeed (easy fix)
>Kaluza: That would be fine to drive the LSII from the >main bus and AUX battery with a Schottky diode. Here >is Klaus diagram I modified as I think you described. > ><http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/7803/presentation1wm4.jpg>http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/7803/presentation1wm4.jpg > >(you may get by with less than a 4.5 amp/hr battery, >depending on your endurance needs) > >Skytec also has suggestions: ><http://www.skytecair.com/EI.htm>http://www.skytecair.com/EI.htm > >(notice the capacitor solution, independant of using the Aux >battery, a 50,000 mfd cost about $36.00. I like the battery better >if you already have it and its suitable.) > >Is the rocky mountain really up to charging the >battery? You may have to decided that. There is no >reason why you can't let the airplane charge it is there? >What kind of aux battery is it? > >The reason you may have got a kick back after 360 >hours is your main battery is starting to get weaker >(from age) and possibly cold weather is affecting it. >Also the starter may be draining more with cold >weather starts, lowering the voltage during start. Never >the less having the ignition w/ AUX pwr during start will >fix it. AUX does not drive the starter so voltage stays up. > >No EI is immune from start kick back with super low >supply voltage. The lightspeed happens to be one of the >best for starting because it takes very low voltage to >work, like 6 to 8 volts. Most planes should maintain >that during start. > >Any EI on the market will have a problem including >the E-mag which has also had kick backs, if the voltage >is too low. On RV's we use a small battery and light >weight starters that take almost 300 amps to crank. > >With permanent magnet starters (which have high >current demands) and small Odyssey batteries we use in >RV's, you can get start irregularities. You can get a >bigger main battery or different starter as alternative >solutions. > >Wire wound starters uses less current. I highly >recommend the SkyTec High Torque or new NL model. >You probably have a Flyweight PM skytec? > >A bigger battery may not be possible or practical but >that may solve the issue as well with the starter. > >The wiring of the Aux to the Lightspeed Plasma II is >the best option in my opinion. > > >Feel free to ignore Bob's comments: > > >>"not designed to work in the real world of airplanes. > >>In this case, a software fix to the product in question > >>would prevent inadvertent kick-backs." > >It is not a software fix. That's 100% wrong. Bob has no >clue what he is talking about. The product is excellent, >in service for over a decade, very mature and works in >the real world of airplanes. Absurd comment, it's the >nature of any CDI ignition that relies on external power; >it needs min voltage. The lightspeed is no different. > >Also Bobs other comment can be ignored: > > >>"you need to be able to shut EVERYTHING down > >>without having the engine quit > >You have one mag so the engine quiting is not an >issue. You can always turn the EI off to save power. > >I don't recommend Z-30 or ABMM for your simple needs. > > >>Adding an aux battery per Z-30 has always been > >>the universal Band-Aid for this phenomenon. > >This adds weight and complexity of a large contactor (relay). >Bob loves to add wires, weight and switches. LOVES IT! > >ALL YOU NEED IS TO KEEP EI VOLTAGE UP DURING START. > >Cheers George (no space shuttle solution, simple is better) > > > >From: "Charles Kaluza" > <charleskaluza(at)verizon.net> > > >We have 360 hours on our RV6A with one mag and > >the Lightspeed II unit which has worked well. We > >have had one kickback when starting on the > >Lightspeed with a low battery. Spoke with Klaus > >about using my backup battery as an additional > >power source for the unit. He thought it would be > >fine as long as I used a Shottky diode (90SQ030) to > >prevent back feed from the auxiliary battery to the > >main. The engine starts better on the Lightspeed but > >we have been starting on the mag since the > >kickback. I am debating using power from the E-Bus > >which I have activated during start vs. running the > >Aux. power direct from the Aux. battery. The second > >option would allow better charging of the Aux. > >battery. I worry about excess current flow if the Aux. > >battery is low causing the 5 amp fuse > >on the Lightspeed to blow. Any advice? > > >The Aux. battery is currently charged through my > >Rocky Mountain monitor. > > >>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" ><nuckollsr(at)cox.net> > >>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternate feed to > >>Lightspeed > > >>This issue (and others like it) have surfaced dozens > >>of times over the past 15 years. There are some > >>products not designed to work in the real world of > >>airplanes. In this case, a software fix to the product > >>in question would prevent inadvertent kick-backs > >>due to low bus voltage or any other stimulus. > > >>Adding an aux battery per Z-30 has always been > >>the universal Band-Aid for this phenomenon. > >>Further, it offers an opportunity to run other > >>electrically-dependent engine accessories from a > >>"protected" supply. > > >>No diodes needed (therefore no charging issues). > >>Battery may be any practical size needed to > >>address your endurance needs. Closing the > >>contactor may be automatic. > > >>See: ><http://aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/LVWarn-ABMM.pdf>http://aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/LVWarn-ABMM.pdf > > > >>or manual or manual with warnings . . . > > >>See: ><http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf > > > >>Any item needed to keep an engine running should > >>be operated from an always-hot battery bus . . . if > >>you got bad smells in the cockpit, you need to be > >>able to shut EVERYTHING down without having > >>the engine quit. > >>Bob > > ><http://www.buildersbooks.com>www.buildersbooks.com ><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > >-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terry Miles" <terrence_miles(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Heat shrink labelling
Date: Dec 14, 2006
I want to add a little on this topic too.and how to label. I'm 60. When you get to that age (and we all do) reading labels can be a task in small, dark places. Somebody wrote this week in jest about hold a flashlight in one hand, the magnifying glass in another, adjusting your bi-focals with another, and trying to attach or remove that wire with another..well he is right! And keep the coding short if you can. Having some minor experience at this, I want to add that having the wire identification printed several times around the sleeve of heat shink is very very important in places like d-subs or other times when wires will get turned, or covered in a cluster with other wires so that you can only see the side of it. Thank you to every who contributes to this. When we put our heads together, it's a great time saver. Terry _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Morgan Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 1:08 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Heat shrink labelling Just another approach. We got 400 pairs of numbered heat shrink, 300 pairs of 3/32" and 100 pairs of 1/4" - Each label being 3/4" long, www.merithian.com - total cost was about US$60. Every wire / cable then has one label on each end and a spreadsheet for look up for wire size / termination / routing / function. So far has worked really well. Carl -- ZK-VII - RV 7A QB - finishing? - New Zealand http://www.rvproject.gen.nz/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fiveonepw(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, 14 December 2006 4:17 p.m. Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: DYMO RhinoPRO3000 label writer Since I started this discussion, thought I'd chime in on my purchase decision. I've opted for a Brady ID Pal, for about $100. It doesn't print heat-shrink tubing, but the Dymo Rhyno cartridges are pretty pricey for only 5 feet of tube. The standard cartridges are smaller (less total length) on the Dymos, and Brady claims there is less waste (margin) on their labels. We'll see.. My thinking is that if I really NEED a heat-shrink tube label, I'll make a standard label and apply a clear shrink-tube around it. Usual suspects might be anything FWF. But the MAJOR factor was that using the wrap-around labels, you can print up to 4 (I think) lines of text on each label- a no-brainer since this kind of label is vastly easier to read when you are standing on your head with a maglite in your teeth trying to find the "E1-26A" wire in that bundle going to the audio panel. Whatever. My best investigations indicate that the heat-shrink tubes only get one line of text- not too handy, IMHO... Will produce a "product evaluation report" upon reciept and use of Brady label machine... >From The PossumWorks in TN Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike" <mlas(at)cox.net>
Subject: Alternate feed to Lightspeed
Date: Dec 14, 2006
Kaluza, One other point to note is how you wired the Lightspeed box! I have found that if you pick the power from the bus main feed (main bus) Away from the battery, this will in many cases cause the same problem. It is imperative that you wire the ignition directly from the battery terminal, you may use what every switching or circuit protection you would like. Mike Larkin -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Kaluza Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 9:31 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternate feed to Lightspeed We have 360 hours on our RV6A with one mag and the Lightspeed II unit which has worked well. We have had one kickback when starting on the Lightspeed with a low battery. Spoke with Klaus about using my backup battery as an additional power source for the unit. He thought it would be fine as long as I used a Shottky diode (90SQ030) to prevent back feed from the auxiliary battery to the main. The engine starts better on the Lightspeed but we have been starting on the mag since the kickback. I am debating using power from the E-Bus which I have activated during start vs. running the Aux. power direct from the Aux. battery. The second option would allow better charging of the Aux. battery. I worry about excess current flow if the Aux. battery is low causing the 5 amp fuse on the Lightspeed to blow. Any advice? The Aux. battery is currently charged through my Rocky Mountain monitor. Thanks for the help. Kaluza "http://www.aeroelectric.com"www.aeroelectric.com "http://www.buildersbooks.com"www.buildersbooks.com "http://www.kitlog.com"www.kitlog.com "http://www.homebuilthelp.com"www.homebuilthelp.com "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu tion "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List -- 12/12/2006 -- 12/12/2006 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 14, 2006
From: Nancy Ghertner <nghertner(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: DYMO RhinoPRO3000 label writer
On 12/13/06 10:16 PM, "Fiveonepw(at)aol.com" wrote: > Since I started this discussion, thought I'd chime in on my purchase > decision. I've opted for a Brady ID Pal, for about $100. It doesn't print > heat-shrink tubing, but the Dymo Rhyno cartridges are pretty pricey for only 5 > feet of > tube. The standard cartridges are smaller (less total length) on the Dymos, > and Brady claims there is less waste (margin) on their labels. We'll see.. > > My thinking is that if I really NEED a heat-shrink tube label, I'll make a > standard label and apply a clear shrink-tube around it. Usual suspects might > be > anything FWF. But the MAJOR factor was that using the wrap-around labels, > you can print up to 4 (I think) lines of text on each label- a no-brainer > since > this kind of label is vastly easier to read when you are standing on your head > with a maglite in your teeth trying to find the "E1-26A" wire in that bundle > going to the audio panel. Whatever. My best investigations indicate that the > heat-shrink tubes only get one line of text- not too handy, IMHO... > > Will produce a "product evaluation report" upon reciept and use of Brady > label machine... > >> From The PossumWorks in TN > Mark > I have been using a Kroy, bought new for around $200 for the last few years. Operation is a little finicky but it prints stick on labels and white heat shrink tubing which comes in cartridges for about $30 a piece. I used 3 cartridges (2 for small tubing and 1 for larger wires) to do my all electric Glasair. I can only print 1 line of text on the smaller wires but multiple on the larger. I put labels at each end of the wire and sometimes along bundles. Also, I actually print names of wires instead of codes, as I am an idiot at things that aren't simple. Lory Ghertner ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 14, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Alternate feed to Lightspeed
>Kaluza, > > >One other point to note is how you wired the Lightspeed box! I have found >that if you pick the power from the bus main feed (main bus) > >Away from the battery, this will in many cases cause the same problem. It >is imperative that you wire the ignition directly from the battery >terminal, you may use what every switching or circuit protection you would >like. When a device becomes sensitive to installation processes, it can be said "not designed to live in the real world". If Mattituck suggests not using the Lightspeed ignition to start the engine demonstrates their own assessment of shortfall in this product's operating characteristics. A simple delay in the system ability to deliver spark energy to something like 300 milliseconds after starter engagement is clearly called for so that the ignition system is not victimized by the short lived brown-out imposed by starter inrush currents. An exemplar trace of an inrush brown-out event is shown at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/99_Saturn_SL1.jpg Many writers have indicated that they can use their Lightspeed system to start the engine if the ignition switch is simply left of until after the starter is engaged. This provides a manual delay work-around to ignition system activation that should be a part of the product's design. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 14, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Alternate feed to Lightspeed (easy fix)
>Kaluza: That would be fine to drive the LSII from the >main bus and AUX battery with a Schottky diode. Here >is Klaus diagram I modified as I think you described. > ><http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/7803/presentation1wm4.jpg>http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/7803/presentation1wm4.jpg > >The wiring of the Aux to the Lightspeed Plasma II is >the best option in my opinion. > > >Feel free to ignore Bob's comments: > > >>"not designed to work in the real world of airplanes. > >>In this case, a software fix to the product in question > >>would prevent inadvertent kick-backs." > >It is not a software fix. That's 100% wrong. Bob has no >clue what he is talking about. The product is excellent, >in service for over a decade, very mature and works in >the real world of airplanes. Absurd comment, it's the >nature of any CDI ignition that relies on external power; >it needs min voltage. The lightspeed is no different. > >Also Bobs other comment can be ignored: > > >>"you need to be able to shut EVERYTHING down > >>without having the engine quit > >You have one mag so the engine quiting is not an >issue. You can always turn the EI off to save power. George, as per your long demonstrated habits, you pull things out of context and use them to hammer me instead of supporting and/or explaining the science. > >I don't recommend Z-30 or ABMM for your simple needs. > > >>Adding an aux battery per Z-30 has always been > >>the universal Band-Aid for this phenomenon. > >This adds weight and complexity of a large contactor (relay). >Bob loves to add wires, weight and switches. LOVES IT! > >ALL YOU NEED IS TO KEEP EI VOLTAGE UP DURING START. Or don't ask the ignition system to go to work until after inrush brown-out is over - EASILY accommodated in software. > >Cheers George (no space shuttle solution, simple is better) You claim a great deal of knowledge about both the science behind Lightspeed's products and my personality traits . . . both of which are demonstrably in error. Since your behavior between the last time you were asked to leave and the present have not changed, I'll repeat my original request: Please go away, you're not being helpful. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 14, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Annunciator Panel Update?
> > >Anybody got an update on the potential annunciator panel that was being >discussed several months ago? > >Thanks > >Bob That topic was one of several being massaged around plates of tacos at the el Mexico cafe but it seems to have died out. None of the pepper-heads present has demonstrated an interest in stepping up to the project. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: GNS480 installation manual
Date: Dec 14, 2006
From: "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" <Fred.Stucklen(at)UTCPower.com>
Does anyone have a .PDF version of the GNS480 installation manual? I've tried the Garmin site without success.... And there doesn't seem To be anything in the archives.... Fred Stucklen RV-7A N924RV (Reserved) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com>
Subject: Annunciator Panel Update?
Date: Dec 14, 2006
Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring as at least a paper designer. I've been toying with a simple microprocessor based application that could take either active hi, or active low, and maybe alternating types of inputs. It could then generate either active hi, or active low, or flashing outputs, along with an associated audio notification event. This would all be configurable from a simple serial port based device and some windows or other software. It would obviously support a "test" mode and would be configurable for audio volume. Second generation would allow recorded voice instead of simple tones. Most likely, I'd center it around low power incandescent or LED annunciation lights. Because IO on micros *isnt* unlimited, perhaps looking at 8 gazintas, and 8 gazoutas as a start. Power would be 9-32v and regulated on the board. I'd look for something the size of a pack of gum or maybe just a smidge large to stay in thru hole parts and allow it to be available in Kit form. Would there be much interest in the above? I'm most likely going to do the Honeywell type lights, which are LED based and has been what is driving my desire for the above. Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 9:49 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? --> > > >Anybody got an update on the potential annunciator panel that was being >discussed several months ago? > >Thanks > >Bob That topic was one of several being massaged around plates of tacos at the el Mexico cafe but it seems to have died out. None of the pepper-heads present has demonstrated an interest in stepping up to the project. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 14, 2006
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Annunciator Panel Update?
Put me down as interested in one, Alan. Bill B. re-doing RV panel for glass/IFR this spring On 12/14/06, Alan K. Adamson wrote: > > Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring as at least a paper designer. > > I've been toying with a simple microprocessor based application that could > take either active hi, or active low, and maybe alternating types of inputs. > It could then generate either active hi, or active low, or flashing outputs, > along with an associated audio notification event. This would all be > configurable from a simple serial port based device and some windows or > other software. It would obviously support a "test" mode and would be > configurable for audio volume. Second generation would allow recorded voice > instead of simple tones. Most likely, I'd center it around low power > incandescent or LED annunciation lights. > > Because IO on micros *isnt* unlimited, perhaps looking at 8 gazintas, and 8 > gazoutas as a start. Power would be 9-32v and regulated on the board. I'd > look for something the size of a pack of gum or maybe just a smidge large to > stay in thru hole parts and allow it to be available in Kit form. > > Would there be much interest in the above? I'm most likely going to do the > Honeywell type lights, which are LED based and has been what is driving my > desire for the above. > > Alan > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: Re: Annunciator Panel Update?
Date: Dec 14, 2006
Allan Looks very good to me. (Although I don't have the slightest idea what "gazintas" and "gazoutas" are!?) I'd be interested. Carlos ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 5:26 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? > > > Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring as at least a paper designer. > > I've been toying with a simple microprocessor based application that could > take either active hi, or active low, and maybe alternating types of > inputs. > It could then generate either active hi, or active low, or flashing > outputs, > along with an associated audio notification event. This would all be > configurable from a simple serial port based device and some windows or > other software. It would obviously support a "test" mode and would be > configurable for audio volume. Second generation would allow recorded > voice > instead of simple tones. Most likely, I'd center it around low power > incandescent or LED annunciation lights. > > Because IO on micros *isnt* unlimited, perhaps looking at 8 gazintas, and > 8 > gazoutas as a start. Power would be 9-32v and regulated on the board. > I'd > look for something the size of a pack of gum or maybe just a smidge large > to > stay in thru hole parts and allow it to be available in Kit form. > > Would there be much interest in the above? I'm most likely going to do > the > Honeywell type lights, which are LED based and has been what is driving my > desire for the above. > > Alan > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com>
Subject: Annunciator Panel Update?
Date: Dec 14, 2006
Inputs and outputs :)... Alan - wow, based upon all the comments (directly) to me, I guess you guys might motivate me to do this.... Now to see if I can con a friend into doing the firmware.... I am after all trying to finish my airplane too... -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Trigo Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 1:41 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? --> Allan Looks very good to me. (Although I don't have the slightest idea what "gazintas" and "gazoutas" are!?) I'd be interested. Carlos ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 5:26 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? > > > Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring as at least a paper designer. > > I've been toying with a simple microprocessor based application that could > take either active hi, or active low, and maybe alternating types of > inputs. > It could then generate either active hi, or active low, or flashing > outputs, > along with an associated audio notification event. This would all be > configurable from a simple serial port based device and some windows or > other software. It would obviously support a "test" mode and would be > configurable for audio volume. Second generation would allow recorded > voice > instead of simple tones. Most likely, I'd center it around low power > incandescent or LED annunciation lights. > > Because IO on micros *isnt* unlimited, perhaps looking at 8 gazintas, and > 8 > gazoutas as a start. Power would be 9-32v and regulated on the board. > I'd > look for something the size of a pack of gum or maybe just a smidge large > to > stay in thru hole parts and allow it to be available in Kit form. > > Would there be much interest in the above? I'm most likely going to do > the > Honeywell type lights, which are LED based and has been what is driving my > desire for the above. > > Alan > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "rtitsworth" <rtitsworth(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: DYMO RhinoPRO3000 label writer
Date: Dec 14, 2006
What model is your Kroy? How long is a $30 cartridge of heat shrink? -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nancy Ghertner Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 9:14 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: DYMO RhinoPRO3000 label writer On 12/13/06 10:16 PM, "Fiveonepw(at)aol.com" wrote: > Since I started this discussion, thought I'd chime in on my purchase > decision. I've opted for a Brady ID Pal, for about $100. It doesn't print > heat-shrink tubing, but the Dymo Rhyno cartridges are pretty pricey for only 5 > feet of > tube. The standard cartridges are smaller (less total length) on the Dymos, > and Brady claims there is less waste (margin) on their labels. We'll see.. > > My thinking is that if I really NEED a heat-shrink tube label, I'll make a > standard label and apply a clear shrink-tube around it. Usual suspects might > be > anything FWF. But the MAJOR factor was that using the wrap-around labels, > you can print up to 4 (I think) lines of text on each label- a no-brainer > since > this kind of label is vastly easier to read when you are standing on your head > with a maglite in your teeth trying to find the "E1-26A" wire in that bundle > going to the audio panel. Whatever. My best investigations indicate that the > heat-shrink tubes only get one line of text- not too handy, IMHO... > > Will produce a "product evaluation report" upon reciept and use of Brady > label machine... > >> From The PossumWorks in TN > Mark > I have been using a Kroy, bought new for around $200 for the last few years. Operation is a little finicky but it prints stick on labels and white heat shrink tubing which comes in cartridges for about $30 a piece. I used 3 cartridges (2 for small tubing and 1 for larger wires) to do my all electric Glasair. I can only print 1 line of text on the smaller wires but multiple on the larger. I put labels at each end of the wire and sometimes along bundles. Also, I actually print names of wires instead of codes, as I am an idiot at things that aren't simple. Lory Ghertner ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "rtitsworth" <rtitsworth(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Annunciator Panel Update?
Date: Dec 14, 2006
Alan, It would also be nice if the audio output could be manually muted (i.e. until the input conditions was fixed at which point it would auto re-arm) unless/until another input generated a second warning which would trigger a subsequent audio signal. This is better than shutting off the audio as you could forget to turn it back on/up. It would also be nice to have the visual intensity dimmable (perhaps external to the board) as it would be nice to have the annunciations "very" bright during the day, but not blinding at night. If it were LED based, it would be nice to be able to configure/switch the LED colors (red, yellow, green, etc) during assembly. Some thoughts on the test function/circuit... 1) It could be designed to only test the lights by suppling power directly to the lights (bypassing the processor) - simple and software independent but a rather weak "test". 2) It could be designed into the processor/code (ie. a manually activated "all on" mode). 3) It could be designed to be a circuit "in-front" of the processor (i.e. pulling all selected inputs high or low - thereby testing the processor/coding as well) which is the most complex. If option #2 (above) it might be nice if the "test" were automatically performed at startup such that all the lights would initially come on automatically and then hitting the test (or mute) button would extinguish them. Thereafter, you would hold the momentary "test" button to test again. Perhaps "holding" the mute button (>1 sec) would function as the test button (saving a button). Of course, following a "test" event, any prior illuminated warnings should still be illuminated. .02 Rick -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan K. Adamson Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 12:27 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring as at least a paper designer. I've been toying with a simple microprocessor based application that could take either active hi, or active low, and maybe alternating types of inputs. It could then generate either active hi, or active low, or flashing outputs, along with an associated audio notification event. This would all be configurable from a simple serial port based device and some windows or other software. It would obviously support a "test" mode and would be configurable for audio volume. Second generation would allow recorded voice instead of simple tones. Most likely, I'd center it around low power incandescent or LED annunciation lights. Because IO on micros *isnt* unlimited, perhaps looking at 8 gazintas, and 8 gazoutas as a start. Power would be 9-32v and regulated on the board. I'd look for something the size of a pack of gum or maybe just a smidge large to stay in thru hole parts and allow it to be available in Kit form. Would there be much interest in the above? I'm most likely going to do the Honeywell type lights, which are LED based and has been what is driving my desire for the above. Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 9:49 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? --> > > >Anybody got an update on the potential annunciator panel that was being >discussed several months ago? > >Thanks > >Bob That topic was one of several being massaged around plates of tacos at the el Mexico cafe but it seems to have died out. None of the pepper-heads present has demonstrated an interest in stepping up to the project. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 14, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Annunciator Panel Update?
> > >Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring as at least a paper designer. > >Would there be much interest in the above? I'm most likely going to do the >Honeywell type lights, which are LED based and has been what is driving my >desire for the above. > >Alan Alan, If I may be of assistance in helping configure I/O, designing with DO-160 friendly techniques, helping with packaging, I'd be pleased to help. Bob . . ., ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 14, 2006
From: Nancy Ghertner <nghertner(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: DYMO RhinoPRO3000 label writer
On 12/14/06 3:51 PM, "rtitsworth" wrote: > > > What model is your Kroy? > How long is a $30 cartridge of heat shrink? > I have the k2500. The cartridge holds 114" of the 1/8" heat shrink which works very well for 22AWG. It wastes about an inch at the start of each printing, and the space between each label is controllable. Lory Ghertner ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Annunciator Panel Update?
Date: Dec 14, 2006
From: "Craig Berland" <cberland(at)systems3.net>
Aerotronics out of Billings Montana has something very similar to your current discussions. May be worth contacting them. http://www.aerotronics.com/ Craig Berland >Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring as at least a paper designer. > >Would there be much interest in the above? I'm most likely going to do >the Honeywell type lights, which are LED based and has been what is >driving my desire for the above. > >Alan Alan, If I may be of assistance in helping configure I/O, designing with DO-160 friendly techniques, helping with packaging, I'd be pleased to help. Bob . . ., ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: GNS480 installation manual
Date: Dec 14, 2006
From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mike.stewart(at)us.ibm.com>
I found it on Garmins site. http://www.garmin.com/manuals/CNX80IntegratedAvionicsSystem_Installation Manual.pdf Mike _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 12:23 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: GNS480 installation manual Does anyone have a .PDF version of the GNS480 installation manual? I've tried the Garmin site without success.... And there doesn't seem To be anything in the archives.... Fred Stucklen RV-7A N924RV (Reserved) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Speedy11(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 14, 2006
Subject: Re: Wire label-making machines
But, Michele, you're using the Rhino 5000. The 3000, which Bill B. mentioned only uses 1/4" as the smallest heat shrink. The 5000 can use smaller heat shrink. Did you test the 1/4" shrink on the 22 GA wire? Stan Sutterfield Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines Affirmative - it does grip 22 with the smallest heat shrink tube they have. I've done it. Michele RV8 - Finishing ---------------------- They apparently sell some rather pricey heat shrink for it. 1/2, 3/8 and 1/4 inch flat widths. Is any of that going to grip a 22ga wire very well? I'm interested in this technology, but want to know more before I buy any new toys. -Bill B On 12/9/06, sarg314 wrote: > > This outfit has the rhinopro 3000 for $65. Says it prints on heat shrink. > > >http://www.provantage.com/dymo-15605~7DYMO02H.htm ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joe & Jan Connell" <jconnell(at)rconnect.com>
Subject: Heat shrink labelling
Date: Dec 15, 2006
I used Microsoft Word to print all my labels using a 6 pitch font. Rather than a numbering scheme, I used full text describing the wire. Examples below: (3) DYNON D10A GROUND (1) DYNON D10A TO ESSENTIAL BUSS 12V + (2) DYNON D10A KEEP ALIVE POWER With this format I know the pin number, the purpose, and the destination. I cut the label, lay it on the wire, slide a piece of heat shrink over the two, and heat briefly. For hard-to- read locations I use two labels (one reversed.) It's a bit time consuming but works well... Joe Connell RV-9A N95JJ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com>
Subject: Annunciator Panel Update?
Date: Dec 15, 2006
Ok, I've been doing a bit more thinking about this widget.... I'm really trying to avoid designing the kitchen sink into it, and also I don't want the complexity of multiple modules that all have to be interfaced. I'm applying the KISS principle if at all possible. I've nailed down a feature list a bit further. This is just major features and is broken out by Hardware, and Hardware/Software. I've also included a "future additions" section to keep those in perspective. *If* we were to do a little virtual design here. Maybe we could nail down a final V1 feature set, work up a prospective component list. From there we could scratch out a schematic and then obviously, we could get some prototypes done and build a couple and see how they work. Single sided, or at the most double sided would be preferred. Concerns that we'll have to watch for is RFI/EMI and how to keep that to a minimum. Hardening this device should not be in the cards just yet, unless that can be done easily. At this point, we should work to a prototype. Ok, so here's my feature list. Feel free to comment on it and if there are questions, let me know. One note, this should be designed to work in both metal and composite airplanes (that means we'll have to make sure grounding is available and adequate. Since the original round, I did think of a couple of nice to haves. Rick's ideas muting and was a good one, that lead me to thing about priorities and overrides. These can be handled in software. Dimming was another good idea and the inclusion of some PWM for driving led's etc. (we'll really have to watch EMI/RFI from those!) This should be designed with PC tools that the average joe can afford if we are to work in a collaborative environment with and around this. So, what do ya think? Hardware a) 8 control inputs (can be active hi, active lo, or strobed) b) 8 control outputs (can be active hi, active lo, or strobed) c) microprocessor control d) flash memory (perhaps processor embedded) e) serial port output (output strings for external usage - e.g. Engine monitor display, EFIS display, etc) f) serial port input (command processor for configuration, s/w upload, etc) g) 8 low level audio inputs h) 3 low level audio outputs i) audio tone generator j) 9-32v DC power supply Hardware/Software a) test circuitry (lights, processor, logic, etc) b) smart mute circuitry (mute until remedy, then re-arm, etc) c) smart dimming circuitry (PWM for LEDs, ambient light sensor, for auto adjust, etc) d) event priorities for both control outputs and audio outputs (can be linked or combined via configuration) e) queued events with queue clearing logic (would need to integrate with event priorities) Future additions a) recorded or recordable voice messages in place of tone generated sounds b) ethernet or some other form of faster interface technology Obviously, the number of inputs and outputs (gazintas and gazoutas) are arbitrary, but 8 is a nice micro number :) Alan - wanna be designer at large ;> -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rtitsworth Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 4:24 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? --> Alan, It would also be nice if the audio output could be manually muted (i.e. until the input conditions was fixed at which point it would auto re-arm) unless/until another input generated a second warning which would trigger a subsequent audio signal. This is better than shutting off the audio as you could forget to turn it back on/up. It would also be nice to have the visual intensity dimmable (perhaps external to the board) as it would be nice to have the annunciations "very" bright during the day, but not blinding at night. If it were LED based, it would be nice to be able to configure/switch the LED colors (red, yellow, green, etc) during assembly. Some thoughts on the test function/circuit... 1) It could be designed to only test the lights by suppling power directly to the lights (bypassing the processor) - simple and software independent but a rather weak "test". 2) It could be designed into the processor/code (ie. a manually activated "all on" mode). 3) It could be designed to be a circuit "in-front" of the processor (i.e. pulling all selected inputs high or low - thereby testing the processor/coding as well) which is the most complex. If option #2 (above) it might be nice if the "test" were automatically performed at startup such that all the lights would initially come on automatically and then hitting the test (or mute) button would extinguish them. Thereafter, you would hold the momentary "test" button to test again. Perhaps "holding" the mute button (>1 sec) would function as the test button (saving a button). Of course, following a "test" event, any prior illuminated warnings should still be illuminated. .02 Rick -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan K. Adamson Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 12:27 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring as at least a paper designer. I've been toying with a simple microprocessor based application that could take either active hi, or active low, and maybe alternating types of inputs. It could then generate either active hi, or active low, or flashing outputs, along with an associated audio notification event. This would all be configurable from a simple serial port based device and some windows or other software. It would obviously support a "test" mode and would be configurable for audio volume. Second generation would allow recorded voice instead of simple tones. Most likely, I'd center it around low power incandescent or LED annunciation lights. Because IO on micros *isnt* unlimited, perhaps looking at 8 gazintas, and 8 gazoutas as a start. Power would be 9-32v and regulated on the board. I'd look for something the size of a pack of gum or maybe just a smidge large to stay in thru hole parts and allow it to be available in Kit form. Would there be much interest in the above? I'm most likely going to do the Honeywell type lights, which are LED based and has been what is driving my desire for the above. Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 9:49 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? --> > > >Anybody got an update on the potential annunciator panel that was being >discussed several months ago? > >Thanks > >Bob That topic was one of several being massaged around plates of tacos at the el Mexico cafe but it seems to have died out. None of the pepper-heads present has demonstrated an interest in stepping up to the project. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Doug Windhorn" <N1DeltaWhiskey(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Annunciator Panel Update?
Date: Dec 15, 2006
Alan, Thanks for looking into this a bit further. I have been trying to locate a row of enunciators to let me know when some defined parameter is out of normal/desired ranges (row of idiot lights if you will, with some additional features such as audio alert via the headphones. After reading over your list, not sure how KISS your proposal is, but will leave that conversation to those that might have a better idea of what they are talking about. I am not sure what all the "features" do, or are supposed to do, or how I would use them. I am wondering, though, if dimming wouldn't be better performed by simple light sensitive resistive circuitry (could be paralleled with user adjustable) rather than PWM. I am assuming that the enunciator panel is for the purpose of displaying fault/attention needed events and would not be lit continuously (not sure what I would want continuously lit on such a panel). If true, then it is doubtful that any meaningful power savings could be had by going to the complication of PWM. Just some thoughts. Hope you can produce a well engineered design/product (e.g., competitive costs are factored in). Regards, Doug Windhorn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com> Sent: Friday, 15 December, 2006 19:36 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? > > > Ok, I've been doing a bit more thinking about this widget.... I'm really > trying to avoid designing the kitchen sink into it, and also I don't want > the complexity of multiple modules that all have to be interfaced. > > I'm applying the KISS principle if at all possible. > > I've nailed down a feature list a bit further. This is just major > features > and is broken out by Hardware, and Hardware/Software. I've also included > a > "future additions" section to keep those in perspective. > > *If* we were to do a little virtual design here. Maybe we could nail down > a > final V1 feature set, work up a prospective component list. From there we > could scratch out a schematic and then obviously, we could get some > prototypes done and build a couple and see how they work. > > Single sided, or at the most double sided would be preferred. Concerns > that > we'll have to watch for is RFI/EMI and how to keep that to a minimum. > Hardening this device should not be in the cards just yet, unless that can > be done easily. > > At this point, we should work to a prototype. > > Ok, so here's my feature list. Feel free to comment on it and if there > are > questions, let me know. One note, this should be designed to work in both > metal and composite airplanes (that means we'll have to make sure > grounding > is available and adequate. > > Since the original round, I did think of a couple of nice to haves. > > Rick's ideas muting and was a good one, that lead me to thing about > priorities and overrides. These can be handled in software. > > Dimming was another good idea and the inclusion of some PWM for driving > led's etc. (we'll really have to watch EMI/RFI from those!) > > This should be designed with PC tools that the average joe can afford if > we > are to work in a collaborative environment with and around this. > > So, what do ya think? > > Hardware > a) 8 control inputs (can be active hi, active lo, or strobed) > b) 8 control outputs (can be active hi, active lo, or strobed) > c) microprocessor control > d) flash memory (perhaps processor embedded) > e) serial port output (output strings for external usage - e.g. Engine > monitor display, EFIS display, etc) > f) serial port input (command processor for configuration, s/w upload, > etc) > g) 8 low level audio inputs > h) 3 low level audio outputs > i) audio tone generator > j) 9-32v DC power supply > > Hardware/Software > a) test circuitry (lights, processor, logic, etc) > b) smart mute circuitry (mute until remedy, then re-arm, etc) > c) smart dimming circuitry (PWM for LEDs, ambient light sensor, for auto > adjust, etc) > d) event priorities for both control outputs and audio outputs (can be > linked or combined via configuration) > e) queued events with queue clearing logic (would need to integrate with > event priorities) > > > Future additions > a) recorded or recordable voice messages in place of tone generated sounds > b) ethernet or some other form of faster interface technology > > Obviously, the number of inputs and outputs (gazintas and gazoutas) are > arbitrary, but 8 is a nice micro number :) > > Alan - wanna be designer at large ;> > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > rtitsworth > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 4:24 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? > > --> > > Alan, > > It would also be nice if the audio output could be manually muted (i.e. > until the input conditions was fixed at which point it would auto re-arm) > unless/until another input generated a second warning which would trigger > a > subsequent audio signal. This is better than shutting off the audio as > you > could forget to turn it back on/up. > > It would also be nice to have the visual intensity dimmable (perhaps > external to the board) as it would be nice to have the annunciations > "very" > bright during the day, but not blinding at night. > > If it were LED based, it would be nice to be able to configure/switch the > LED colors (red, yellow, green, etc) during assembly. > > Some thoughts on the test function/circuit... > 1) It could be designed to only test the lights by suppling power directly > to the lights (bypassing the processor) - simple and software independent > but a rather weak "test". > 2) It could be designed into the processor/code (ie. a manually activated > "all on" mode). > 3) It could be designed to be a circuit "in-front" of the processor (i.e. > pulling all selected inputs high or low - thereby testing the > processor/coding as well) which is the most complex. > > If option #2 (above) it might be nice if the "test" were automatically > performed at startup such that all the lights would initially come on > automatically and then hitting the test (or mute) button would extinguish > them. Thereafter, you would hold the momentary "test" button to test > again. > Perhaps "holding" the mute button (>1 sec) would function as the test > button > (saving a button). > > Of course, following a "test" event, any prior illuminated warnings should > still be illuminated. > > .02 > Rick > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan K. > Adamson > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 12:27 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? > > > > Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring as at least a paper designer. > > I've been toying with a simple microprocessor based application that could > take either active hi, or active low, and maybe alternating types of > inputs. > It could then generate either active hi, or active low, or flashing > outputs, > along with an associated audio notification event. This would all be > configurable from a simple serial port based device and some windows or > other software. It would obviously support a "test" mode and would be > configurable for audio volume. Second generation would allow recorded > voice > instead of simple tones. Most likely, I'd center it around low power > incandescent or LED annunciation lights. > > Because IO on micros *isnt* unlimited, perhaps looking at 8 gazintas, and > 8 > gazoutas as a start. Power would be 9-32v and regulated on the board. > I'd > look for something the size of a pack of gum or maybe just a smidge large > to > stay in thru hole parts and allow it to be available in Kit form. > > Would there be much interest in the above? I'm most likely going to do > the > Honeywell type lights, which are LED based and has been what is driving my > desire for the above. > > Alan > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert > L. > Nuckolls, III > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 9:49 AM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? > > --> > > >> >> >>Anybody got an update on the potential annunciator panel that was being >>discussed several months ago? >> >>Thanks >> >>Bob > > That topic was one of several being massaged around > plates of tacos at the el Mexico cafe but it seems > to have died out. None of the pepper-heads present > has demonstrated an interest in stepping up to the > project. > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------------------------- > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 16, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Annunciator Panel Update?
> > >Ok, I've been doing a bit more thinking about this widget.... I'm really >trying to avoid designing the kitchen sink into it, and also I don't want >the complexity of multiple modules that all have to be interfaced. > >I'm applying the KISS principle if at all possible. > >I've nailed down a feature list a bit further. This is just major features >and is broken out by Hardware, and Hardware/Software. I've also included a >"future additions" section to keep those in perspective. > >*If* we were to do a little virtual design here. Maybe we could nail down a >final V1 feature set, work up a prospective component list. From there we >could scratch out a schematic and then obviously, we could get some >prototypes done and build a couple and see how they work. > >Single sided, or at the most double sided would be preferred. Concerns that >we'll have to watch for is RFI/EMI and how to keep that to a minimum. Emissions from microcontrollers in this application is nil. Aperture areas are so tiny as to make radiation insignificant. I/O artchitecures for minimizing external influences (your COMM and Transponder transmitters) is also easy. >Hardening this device should not be in the cards just yet, unless that can >be done easily. Single sided is virtually impossible with contemporary components due to pin-out density and the dearth of thru-hole parts in small footprints. Go to ExpressPCB.com for their free ECB layout software and fast-turn, low-cost prototyping services. Their software will support double sided, plated thru holes + up to two intermediate planes that can be used for Vcc and Gnd. >At this point, we should work to a prototype. > >Ok, so here's my feature list. Feel free to comment on it and if there are >questions, let me know. One note, this should be designed to work in both >metal and composite airplanes (that means we'll have to make sure grounding >is available and adequate. > >Since the original round, I did think of a couple of nice to haves. > >Rick's ideas muting and was a good one, that lead me to thing about >priorities and overrides. These can be handled in software. > >Dimming was another good idea and the inclusion of some PWM for driving >led's etc. (we'll really have to watch EMI/RFI from those!) > >This should be designed with PC tools that the average joe can afford if we >are to work in a collaborative environment with and around this. > >So, what do ya think? > >Hardware >a) 8 control inputs (can be active hi, active lo, or strobed) >b) 8 control outputs (can be active hi, active lo, or strobed) >c) microprocessor control There are many fine processors offered. My personal choices for new projects tend to check out the PIC series devices first. LOTS of low cost development tools and a large contingent of open source, open ideas users groups. >d) flash memory (perhaps processor embedded) >e) serial port output (output strings for external usage - e.g. Engine >monitor display, EFIS display, etc) >f) serial port input (command processor for configuration, s/w upload, etc) All of the Flash PICs can be programmed in place on the product. >g) 8 low level audio inputs >h) 3 low level audio outputs >i) audio tone generator >j) 9-32v DC power supply >Hardware/Software >a) test circuitry (lights, processor, logic, etc) >b) smart mute circuitry (mute until remedy, then re-arm, etc) >c) smart dimming circuitry (PWM for LEDs, ambient light sensor, for auto >adjust, etc) >d) event priorities for both control outputs and audio outputs (can be >linked or combined via configuration) >e) queued events with queue clearing logic (would need to integrate with >event priorities) years ago I used a lot of 3 x 5 recipe cards not unlike note cards for a research project to organize a project like this. One stack of cards for features (market driven) One stack for design requirements One stack for organizing program flow Nowadays, one could use PowerPoint in the same manner with the advantage of being able to share the document with others via the 'net. In any case, the ability to massage individual details and then rank them for orders of importance and or program flow is important. >Future additions >a) recorded or recordable voice messages in place of tone generated sounds >b) ethernet or some other form of faster interface technology > >Obviously, the number of inputs and outputs (gazintas and gazoutas) are >arbitrary, but 8 is a nice micro number :) This number is irrelevant right now . . . figure out which features will be watched (market and flight-safety drives this thinking) first. The size of the hardware is about the last decision to be made before you start laying out the ECB. >Alan, > >It would also be nice if the audio output could be manually muted (i.e. >until the input conditions was fixed at which point it would auto re-arm) >unless/until another input generated a second warning which would trigger a >subsequent audio signal. This is better than shutting off the audio as you >could forget to turn it back on/up. Yup, master caution warning systems often include a mute/stop-flashes button that will cause the system to stop being a distraction . . . but the tones/flashing comes back after some period of time . . . unless the condition clears. >It would also be nice to have the visual intensity dimmable (perhaps >external to the board) as it would be nice to have the annunciations "very" >bright during the day, but not blinding at night. > >If it were LED based, it would be nice to be able to configure/switch the >LED colors (red, yellow, green, etc) during assembly. >Some thoughts on the test function/circuit... >1) It could be designed to only test the lights by suppling power directly >to the lights (bypassing the processor) - simple and software independent >but a rather weak "test". LED reliability is so high that press-to-test of lamps is not very useful. Better to have a test feature in the processor that does some nice hat-dance with the lights on demand. Pressing buttons to "test" things should encompass as MUCH of the system's hardware as possible. The act of simply testing light bulbs is not very reassuring. >2) It could be designed into the processor/code (ie. a manually activated >"all on" mode). >3) It could be designed to be a circuit "in-front" of the processor (i.e. >pulling all selected inputs high or low - thereby testing the >processor/coding as well) which is the most complex. > >If option #2 (above) it might be nice if the "test" were automatically >performed at startup such that all the lights would initially come on >automatically and then hitting the test (or mute) button would extinguish >them. Thereafter, you would hold the momentary "test" button to test again. >Perhaps "holding" the mute button (>1 sec) would function as the test button >(saving a button). Yup. Get your PP "note cards" started. Your discussion is already too large and detailed to let you put your arms around it with threaded e-mails. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Nathan Ulrich" <nulrich(at)technq.com>
Subject: Annunciator Panel FYI
Date: Dec 16, 2006
Although it doesn't have nearly the features of Alan's proposed annunciator, I built a custom annunciator panel for my Bonanza. It has 16 LED outputs, 13 Stanley bar LEDs and 3 discrete LEDs for marker beacon lights (amber, blue, white). Except for the marker beacon LEDs, each output can be driven by a low or high signal. It has a test button, of course. The circuitry is pretty basic, mostly some surface mount transistors, diodes and resistors. It dims at night by being connected to the dimmer circuit (switched by the nav light switch). I designed and machined an aluminum housing for it, so that it mounts with six screws from behind the panel above my six pack. You can see a photo at: http://picasaweb.google.com/nathantu The annunciator photo is near the bottom. I'd be glad to provide more info if anyone is interested... Nathan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "rtitsworth" <rtitsworth(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Annunciator Panel FYI
Date: Dec 16, 2006
Very nice! Do you have a schematic? -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nathan Ulrich Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 10:26 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel FYI Although it doesn't have nearly the features of Alan's proposed annunciator, I built a custom annunciator panel for my Bonanza. It has 16 LED outputs, 13 Stanley bar LEDs and 3 discrete LEDs for marker beacon lights (amber, blue, white). Except for the marker beacon LEDs, each output can be driven by a low or high signal. It has a test button, of course. The circuitry is pretty basic, mostly some surface mount transistors, diodes and resistors. It dims at night by being connected to the dimmer circuit (switched by the nav light switch). I designed and machined an aluminum housing for it, so that it mounts with six screws from behind the panel above my six pack. You can see a photo at: http://picasaweb.google.com/nathantu The annunciator photo is near the bottom. I'd be glad to provide more info if anyone is interested... Nathan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com>
Subject: Annunciator Panel Update?
Date: Dec 16, 2006
Doug, Thanks for the comments. Yes, you are correct in your assumptions. One note about PWM. I'm not hooked on it, as it's a huge EMI/RFI generator. However LED's don't dim very well with just voltage reductions similar to what a dimmer would do. They dim more easily with pulses. I'm also not trying to clone dimmer functionality. When dimming makes sense to be generated in software, specific to the output (idiot light functions), then we'll look at it. Thanks for the comments. Yes, I too haven't not found an annunciator panel driver that meets my needs. Hence my interest in designing one :). Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Windhorn Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 11:28 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? --> Alan, Thanks for looking into this a bit further. I have been trying to locate a row of enunciators to let me know when some defined parameter is out of normal/desired ranges (row of idiot lights if you will, with some additional features such as audio alert via the headphones. After reading over your list, not sure how KISS your proposal is, but will leave that conversation to those that might have a better idea of what they are talking about. I am not sure what all the "features" do, or are supposed to do, or how I would use them. I am wondering, though, if dimming wouldn't be better performed by simple light sensitive resistive circuitry (could be paralleled with user adjustable) rather than PWM. I am assuming that the enunciator panel is for the purpose of displaying fault/attention needed events and would not be lit continuously (not sure what I would want continuously lit on such a panel). If true, then it is doubtful that any meaningful power savings could be had by going to the complication of PWM. Just some thoughts. Hope you can produce a well engineered design/product (e.g., competitive costs are factored in). Regards, Doug Windhorn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com> Sent: Friday, 15 December, 2006 19:36 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? > > > Ok, I've been doing a bit more thinking about this widget.... I'm really > trying to avoid designing the kitchen sink into it, and also I don't want > the complexity of multiple modules that all have to be interfaced. > > I'm applying the KISS principle if at all possible. > > I've nailed down a feature list a bit further. This is just major > features > and is broken out by Hardware, and Hardware/Software. I've also included > a > "future additions" section to keep those in perspective. > > *If* we were to do a little virtual design here. Maybe we could nail down > a > final V1 feature set, work up a prospective component list. From there we > could scratch out a schematic and then obviously, we could get some > prototypes done and build a couple and see how they work. > > Single sided, or at the most double sided would be preferred. Concerns > that > we'll have to watch for is RFI/EMI and how to keep that to a minimum. > Hardening this device should not be in the cards just yet, unless that can > be done easily. > > At this point, we should work to a prototype. > > Ok, so here's my feature list. Feel free to comment on it and if there > are > questions, let me know. One note, this should be designed to work in both > metal and composite airplanes (that means we'll have to make sure > grounding > is available and adequate. > > Since the original round, I did think of a couple of nice to haves. > > Rick's ideas muting and was a good one, that lead me to thing about > priorities and overrides. These can be handled in software. > > Dimming was another good idea and the inclusion of some PWM for driving > led's etc. (we'll really have to watch EMI/RFI from those!) > > This should be designed with PC tools that the average joe can afford if > we > are to work in a collaborative environment with and around this. > > So, what do ya think? > > Hardware > a) 8 control inputs (can be active hi, active lo, or strobed) > b) 8 control outputs (can be active hi, active lo, or strobed) > c) microprocessor control > d) flash memory (perhaps processor embedded) > e) serial port output (output strings for external usage - e.g. Engine > monitor display, EFIS display, etc) > f) serial port input (command processor for configuration, s/w upload, > etc) > g) 8 low level audio inputs > h) 3 low level audio outputs > i) audio tone generator > j) 9-32v DC power supply > > Hardware/Software > a) test circuitry (lights, processor, logic, etc) > b) smart mute circuitry (mute until remedy, then re-arm, etc) > c) smart dimming circuitry (PWM for LEDs, ambient light sensor, for auto > adjust, etc) > d) event priorities for both control outputs and audio outputs (can be > linked or combined via configuration) > e) queued events with queue clearing logic (would need to integrate with > event priorities) > > > Future additions > a) recorded or recordable voice messages in place of tone generated sounds > b) ethernet or some other form of faster interface technology > > Obviously, the number of inputs and outputs (gazintas and gazoutas) are > arbitrary, but 8 is a nice micro number :) > > Alan - wanna be designer at large ;> > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > rtitsworth > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 4:24 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? > > --> > > Alan, > > It would also be nice if the audio output could be manually muted (i.e. > until the input conditions was fixed at which point it would auto re-arm) > unless/until another input generated a second warning which would trigger > a > subsequent audio signal. This is better than shutting off the audio as > you > could forget to turn it back on/up. > > It would also be nice to have the visual intensity dimmable (perhaps > external to the board) as it would be nice to have the annunciations > "very" > bright during the day, but not blinding at night. > > If it were LED based, it would be nice to be able to configure/switch the > LED colors (red, yellow, green, etc) during assembly. > > Some thoughts on the test function/circuit... > 1) It could be designed to only test the lights by suppling power directly > to the lights (bypassing the processor) - simple and software independent > but a rather weak "test". > 2) It could be designed into the processor/code (ie. a manually activated > "all on" mode). > 3) It could be designed to be a circuit "in-front" of the processor (i.e. > pulling all selected inputs high or low - thereby testing the > processor/coding as well) which is the most complex. > > If option #2 (above) it might be nice if the "test" were automatically > performed at startup such that all the lights would initially come on > automatically and then hitting the test (or mute) button would extinguish > them. Thereafter, you would hold the momentary "test" button to test > again. > Perhaps "holding" the mute button (>1 sec) would function as the test > button > (saving a button). > > Of course, following a "test" event, any prior illuminated warnings should > still be illuminated. > > .02 > Rick > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan K. > Adamson > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 12:27 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? > > > > Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring as at least a paper designer. > > I've been toying with a simple microprocessor based application that could > take either active hi, or active low, and maybe alternating types of > inputs. > It could then generate either active hi, or active low, or flashing > outputs, > along with an associated audio notification event. This would all be > configurable from a simple serial port based device and some windows or > other software. It would obviously support a "test" mode and would be > configurable for audio volume. Second generation would allow recorded > voice > instead of simple tones. Most likely, I'd center it around low power > incandescent or LED annunciation lights. > > Because IO on micros *isnt* unlimited, perhaps looking at 8 gazintas, and > 8 > gazoutas as a start. Power would be 9-32v and regulated on the board. > I'd > look for something the size of a pack of gum or maybe just a smidge large > to > stay in thru hole parts and allow it to be available in Kit form. > > Would there be much interest in the above? I'm most likely going to do > the > Honeywell type lights, which are LED based and has been what is driving my > desire for the above. > > Alan > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert > L. > Nuckolls, III > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 9:49 AM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? > > --> > > >> >> >>Anybody got an update on the potential annunciator panel that was being >>discussed several months ago? >> >>Thanks >> >>Bob > > That topic was one of several being massaged around > plates of tacos at the el Mexico cafe but it seems > to have died out. None of the pepper-heads present > has demonstrated an interest in stepping up to the > project. > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------------------------- > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Nick Leonard" <Nick(at)NLeonard.com>
Subject: Annunciator Panel - The Display
Date: Dec 16, 2006
I may be getting ahead of the design process a little but I have found that one of the more challenging parts of the annunciator panel is how to create an attractive, yet functional display. Once you get beyond the need for a few indicator lights and you try to create something that is flexible in the number of indicators and labeling, it gets complicated. Printing labels on clear stock for individual square buttons works well when you only need a few but they quickly start taking up a lot of real estate on the panel. Nathan's design is certainly very attractive and would meet all of my requirements, I just don't have access to that type of machining... " I designed and machined an aluminum housing for it, so that it mounts with six screws from behind the panel above my six pack. You can see a photo at: http://picasaweb.google.com/nathantu (bottom of the photos) I think that a more universal design is needed that would provide a flat panel, backlit, from four to x annunciators, flexible labeling, flush or near flush enclosure, minimal excess footprint (beyond/between the labels), ... Okay, that's enough for a start of the discussion. What other features are needed on the display side of the project. Hopefully someone has already come up a simple to manufacture (average builder's shop), low cost design for the display. Nathan, can your design be made in the average builder's shop? Is there a way to adapt it to a simpler construction? Bob, no doubt you have some thoughts on this. Eventually this will have to match up to the group that is designing the electronics side of the panel. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "springcanyon" <springcanyon(at)methow.com>
Subject: DYMO RhinoPRO3000 label writer
Date: Dec 16, 2006
Hi Jae, The labels look good, but how difficult is it to wrap these labels around small (22 awg) wires?? Thanks, Don Owens Here is a P-touch labeller on sale for $68.43 at buy.com with free shipping. http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=10372536&loc=101&sp=1&adid=17662 I don't have one, but just noticed it and remembered the discussion on this list. It piqued my curiosity. I wanted to know what these labels actually looked like, since I have never seen one. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002AZ2RY/pricegrabbercpc11-20/ref=n osim The link on amazon.com has a better picture. It actually shows a few sample wires with wire labels attached. It sure does look nice for labelling wires. One comment on here, though, mentions that he thought quite a bit of the labels were wasted. I am probably years away from needing one. Jae -- 5:10 PM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charles Brame <chasb(at)satx.rr.com>
Subject: Off topic - Battery Corrosion
Date: Dec 16, 2006
I recently fished out an old MagLite Flashlight. The D-cells in it were dead, corroded and had spilled acid throughout most of the inside of the flashlight. I managed to get the swollen batteries out and cleaned up the threads in the base of the flashlight. But I can't figure out an easy way to get the corrosion out of the inside of the flashlight barrel. Is there a acid counteracting fluid that will neutralize/remove the corrosion? Any suggestions other than pitching the light? Charlie Brame RV-6A N11CB San Antonio ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 16, 2006
From: "kensmith(at)springnet1.com" <kensmith(at)springnet1.com>
Subject: Re: Off topic - Battery Corrosion
Baking Soda! Charles Brame wrote: > > > > I recently fished out an old MagLite Flashlight. The D-cells in it > were dead, corroded and had spilled acid throughout most of the > inside of the flashlight. I managed to get the swollen batteries out > and cleaned up the threads in the base of the flashlight. But I can't > figure out an easy way to get the corrosion out of the inside of the > flashlight barrel. > > Is there a acid counteracting fluid that will neutralize/remove the > corrosion? Any suggestions other than pitching the light? > > Charlie Brame > RV-6A N11CB > > San Antonio > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: B&C Alternator Cross-Reference
Date: Dec 16, 2006
From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com>
I have a B&C Special L-60, 60 amp alternator (S/N 0209131) that I think has gone bad, but can't tell. Pep Boys and Advance Aircraft Parts all have automated alternator testers that require a code to be entered for the test. Any one know of the cross-referenced code to Ndenso that can be used for the testing? Absent that, is there a reasonable ND product that's a facimile or should I just wait for Monday and call B&C to order one up? Chuck Jensen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "louis palmenteri" <phebe38(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 12/15/06
Date: Dec 16, 2006
could you please unsubscribe me i dont know how, by the way i appreciate your willingness to share knowledge. >From: AeroElectric-List Digest Server <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com> >Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >To: AeroElectric-List Digest List >Subject: AeroElectric-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 12/15/06 >Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 23:55:27 -0800 > >* > > ================================================= > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================= > >Today's complete AeroElectric-List Digest can also be found in either of >the >two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted >in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes >and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version >of the AeroElectric-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text >editor >such as Notepad or with a web browser. > >HTML Version: > > >http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 06-12-15&Archive=AeroElectric > >Text Version: > > >http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 06-12-15&Archive=AeroElectric > > > =============================================== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > =============================================== > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > AeroElectric-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Fri 12/15/06: 3 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > >Today's Message Index: >---------------------- > > 1. 08:14 AM - Re: Heat shrink labelling (Joe & Jan Connell) > 2. 07:39 PM - Re: Annunciator Panel Update? (Alan K. Adamson) > 3. 08:37 PM - Re: Annunciator Panel Update? (Doug Windhorn) > > >________________________________ Message 1 >_____________________________________ > > >From: "Joe & Jan Connell" <jconnell(at)rconnect.com> >Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Heat shrink labelling > > >I used Microsoft Word to print all my labels using >a 6 pitch font. Rather than a numbering scheme, >I used full text describing the wire. Examples below: > >(3) DYNON D10A GROUND >(1) DYNON D10A TO ESSENTIAL BUSS 12V + >(2) DYNON D10A KEEP ALIVE POWER > >With this format I know the pin number, the purpose, and the destination. >I >cut the label, lay it on the wire, slide a piece >of heat shrink over the two, and heat briefly. For hard-to- >read locations I use two labels (one reversed.) It's a bit >time consuming but works well... > >Joe Connell >RV-9A N95JJ > > >________________________________ Message 2 >_____________________________________ > > >From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com> >Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? > > >Ok, I've been doing a bit more thinking about this widget.... I'm really >trying to avoid designing the kitchen sink into it, and also I don't want >the complexity of multiple modules that all have to be interfaced. > >I'm applying the KISS principle if at all possible. > >I've nailed down a feature list a bit further. This is just major features >and is broken out by Hardware, and Hardware/Software. I've also included a >"future additions" section to keep those in perspective. > >*If* we were to do a little virtual design here. Maybe we could nail down >a >final V1 feature set, work up a prospective component list. From there we >could scratch out a schematic and then obviously, we could get some >prototypes done and build a couple and see how they work. > >Single sided, or at the most double sided would be preferred. Concerns >that >we'll have to watch for is RFI/EMI and how to keep that to a minimum. >Hardening this device should not be in the cards just yet, unless that can >be done easily. > >At this point, we should work to a prototype. > >Ok, so here's my feature list. Feel free to comment on it and if there are >questions, let me know. One note, this should be designed to work in both >metal and composite airplanes (that means we'll have to make sure grounding >is available and adequate. > >Since the original round, I did think of a couple of nice to haves. > >Rick's ideas muting and was a good one, that lead me to thing about >priorities and overrides. These can be handled in software. > >Dimming was another good idea and the inclusion of some PWM for driving >led's etc. (we'll really have to watch EMI/RFI from those!) > >This should be designed with PC tools that the average joe can afford if we >are to work in a collaborative environment with and around this. > >So, what do ya think? > >Hardware >a) 8 control inputs (can be active hi, active lo, or strobed) >b) 8 control outputs (can be active hi, active lo, or strobed) >c) microprocessor control >d) flash memory (perhaps processor embedded) >e) serial port output (output strings for external usage - e.g. Engine >monitor display, EFIS display, etc) >f) serial port input (command processor for configuration, s/w upload, etc) >g) 8 low level audio inputs >h) 3 low level audio outputs >i) audio tone generator >j) 9-32v DC power supply > >Hardware/Software >a) test circuitry (lights, processor, logic, etc) >b) smart mute circuitry (mute until remedy, then re-arm, etc) >c) smart dimming circuitry (PWM for LEDs, ambient light sensor, for auto >adjust, etc) >d) event priorities for both control outputs and audio outputs (can be >linked or combined via configuration) >e) queued events with queue clearing logic (would need to integrate with >event priorities) > > >Future additions >a) recorded or recordable voice messages in place of tone generated sounds >b) ethernet or some other form of faster interface technology > >Obviously, the number of inputs and outputs (gazintas and gazoutas) are >arbitrary, but 8 is a nice micro number :) > >Alan - wanna be designer at large ;> > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of >rtitsworth >Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 4:24 PM >Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? > >--> > >Alan, > >It would also be nice if the audio output could be manually muted (i.e. >until the input conditions was fixed at which point it would auto re-arm) >unless/until another input generated a second warning which would trigger a >subsequent audio signal. This is better than shutting off the audio as you >could forget to turn it back on/up. > >It would also be nice to have the visual intensity dimmable (perhaps >external to the board) as it would be nice to have the annunciations "very" >bright during the day, but not blinding at night. > >If it were LED based, it would be nice to be able to configure/switch the >LED colors (red, yellow, green, etc) during assembly. > >Some thoughts on the test function/circuit... >1) It could be designed to only test the lights by suppling power directly >to the lights (bypassing the processor) - simple and software independent >but a rather weak "test". >2) It could be designed into the processor/code (ie. a manually activated >"all on" mode). >3) It could be designed to be a circuit "in-front" of the processor (i.e. >pulling all selected inputs high or low - thereby testing the >processor/coding as well) which is the most complex. > >If option #2 (above) it might be nice if the "test" were automatically >performed at startup such that all the lights would initially come on >automatically and then hitting the test (or mute) button would extinguish >them. Thereafter, you would hold the momentary "test" button to test >again. >Perhaps "holding" the mute button (>1 sec) would function as the test >button >(saving a button). > >Of course, following a "test" event, any prior illuminated warnings should >still be illuminated. > >.02 >Rick > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan K. >Adamson >Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 12:27 PM >Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? > > > >Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring as at least a paper designer. > >I've been toying with a simple microprocessor based application that could >take either active hi, or active low, and maybe alternating types of >inputs. >It could then generate either active hi, or active low, or flashing >outputs, >along with an associated audio notification event. This would all be >configurable from a simple serial port based device and some windows or >other software. It would obviously support a "test" mode and would be >configurable for audio volume. Second generation would allow recorded >voice >instead of simple tones. Most likely, I'd center it around low power >incandescent or LED annunciation lights. > >Because IO on micros *isnt* unlimited, perhaps looking at 8 gazintas, and 8 >gazoutas as a start. Power would be 9-32v and regulated on the board. I'd >look for something the size of a pack of gum or maybe just a smidge large >to >stay in thru hole parts and allow it to be available in Kit form. > >Would there be much interest in the above? I'm most likely going to do the >Honeywell type lights, which are LED based and has been what is driving my >desire for the above. > >Alan > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert >L. >Nuckolls, III >Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 9:49 AM >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? > >--> > > > > > > > >Anybody got an update on the potential annunciator panel that was being > >discussed several months ago? > > > >Thanks > > > >Bob > > That topic was one of several being massaged around > plates of tacos at the el Mexico cafe but it seems > to have died out. None of the pepper-heads present > has demonstrated an interest in stepping up to the > project. > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------------------------- > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > >________________________________ Message 3 >_____________________________________ > > >From: "Doug Windhorn" <N1DeltaWhiskey(at)comcast.net> >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? > > >Alan, > >Thanks for looking into this a bit further. I have been trying to locate a >row of enunciators to let me know when some defined parameter is out of >normal/desired ranges (row of idiot lights if you will, with some >additional >features such as audio alert via the headphones. After reading over your >list, not sure how KISS your proposal is, but will leave that conversation >to those that might have a better idea of what they are talking about. I >am >not sure what all the "features" do, or are supposed to do, or how I would >use them. > >I am wondering, though, if dimming wouldn't be better performed by simple >light sensitive resistive circuitry (could be paralleled with user >adjustable) rather than PWM. I am assuming that the enunciator panel is >for >the purpose of displaying fault/attention needed events and would not be >lit >continuously (not sure what I would want continuously lit on such a panel). >If true, then it is doubtful that any meaningful power savings could be had >by going to the complication of PWM. > >Just some thoughts. Hope you can produce a well engineered design/product >(e.g., competitive costs are factored in). > >Regards, > >Doug Windhorn > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com> >Sent: Friday, 15 December, 2006 19:36 >Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? > > > > > > > > Ok, I've been doing a bit more thinking about this widget.... I'm really > > trying to avoid designing the kitchen sink into it, and also I don't >want > > the complexity of multiple modules that all have to be interfaced. > > > > I'm applying the KISS principle if at all possible. > > > > I've nailed down a feature list a bit further. This is just major > > features > > and is broken out by Hardware, and Hardware/Software. I've also >included > > a > > "future additions" section to keep those in perspective. > > > > *If* we were to do a little virtual design here. Maybe we could nail >down > > a > > final V1 feature set, work up a prospective component list. From there >we > > could scratch out a schematic and then obviously, we could get some > > prototypes done and build a couple and see how they work. > > > > Single sided, or at the most double sided would be preferred. Concerns > > that > > we'll have to watch for is RFI/EMI and how to keep that to a minimum. > > Hardening this device should not be in the cards just yet, unless that >can > > be done easily. > > > > At this point, we should work to a prototype. > > > > Ok, so here's my feature list. Feel free to comment on it and if there > > are > > questions, let me know. One note, this should be designed to work in >both > > metal and composite airplanes (that means we'll have to make sure > > grounding > > is available and adequate. > > > > Since the original round, I did think of a couple of nice to haves. > > > > Rick's ideas muting and was a good one, that lead me to thing about > > priorities and overrides. These can be handled in software. > > > > Dimming was another good idea and the inclusion of some PWM for driving > > led's etc. (we'll really have to watch EMI/RFI from those!) > > > > This should be designed with PC tools that the average joe can afford if > > we > > are to work in a collaborative environment with and around this. > > > > So, what do ya think? > > > > Hardware > > a) 8 control inputs (can be active hi, active lo, or strobed) > > b) 8 control outputs (can be active hi, active lo, or strobed) > > c) microprocessor control > > d) flash memory (perhaps processor embedded) > > e) serial port output (output strings for external usage - e.g. Engine > > monitor display, EFIS display, etc) > > f) serial port input (command processor for configuration, s/w upload, > > etc) > > g) 8 low level audio inputs > > h) 3 low level audio outputs > > i) audio tone generator > > j) 9-32v DC power supply > > > > Hardware/Software > > a) test circuitry (lights, processor, logic, etc) > > b) smart mute circuitry (mute until remedy, then re-arm, etc) > > c) smart dimming circuitry (PWM for LEDs, ambient light sensor, for auto > > adjust, etc) > > d) event priorities for both control outputs and audio outputs (can be > > linked or combined via configuration) > > e) queued events with queue clearing logic (would need to integrate with > > event priorities) > > > > > > Future additions > > a) recorded or recordable voice messages in place of tone generated >sounds > > b) ethernet or some other form of faster interface technology > > > > Obviously, the number of inputs and outputs (gazintas and gazoutas) are > > arbitrary, but 8 is a nice micro number :) > > > > Alan - wanna be designer at large ;> > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > > rtitsworth > > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 4:24 PM > > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? > > > > --> > > > > Alan, > > > > It would also be nice if the audio output could be manually muted (i.e. > > until the input conditions was fixed at which point it would auto >re-arm) > > unless/until another input generated a second warning which would >trigger > > a > > subsequent audio signal. This is better than shutting off the audio as > > you > > could forget to turn it back on/up. > > > > It would also be nice to have the visual intensity dimmable (perhaps > > external to the board) as it would be nice to have the annunciations > > "very" > > bright during the day, but not blinding at night. > > > > If it were LED based, it would be nice to be able to configure/switch >the > > LED colors (red, yellow, green, etc) during assembly. > > > > Some thoughts on the test function/circuit... > > 1) It could be designed to only test the lights by suppling power >directly > > to the lights (bypassing the processor) - simple and software >independent > > but a rather weak "test". > > 2) It could be designed into the processor/code (ie. a manually >activated > > "all on" mode). > > 3) It could be designed to be a circuit "in-front" of the processor >(i.e. > > pulling all selected inputs high or low - thereby testing the > > processor/coding as well) which is the most complex. > > > > If option #2 (above) it might be nice if the "test" were automatically > > performed at startup such that all the lights would initially come on > > automatically and then hitting the test (or mute) button would >extinguish > > them. Thereafter, you would hold the momentary "test" button to test > > again. > > Perhaps "holding" the mute button (>1 sec) would function as the test > > button > > (saving a button). > > > > Of course, following a "test" event, any prior illuminated warnings >should > > still be illuminated. > > > > .02 > > Rick > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan >K. > > Adamson > > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 12:27 PM > > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? > > > > > > > > Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring as at least a paper designer. > > > > I've been toying with a simple microprocessor based application that >could > > take either active hi, or active low, and maybe alternating types of > > inputs. > > It could then generate either active hi, or active low, or flashing > > outputs, > > along with an associated audio notification event. This would all be > > configurable from a simple serial port based device and some windows or > > other software. It would obviously support a "test" mode and would be > > configurable for audio volume. Second generation would allow recorded > > voice > > instead of simple tones. Most likely, I'd center it around low power > > incandescent or LED annunciation lights. > > > > Because IO on micros *isnt* unlimited, perhaps looking at 8 gazintas, >and > > 8 > > gazoutas as a start. Power would be 9-32v and regulated on the board. > > I'd > > look for something the size of a pack of gum or maybe just a smidge >large > > to > > stay in thru hole parts and allow it to be available in Kit form. > > > > Would there be much interest in the above? I'm most likely going to do > > the > > Honeywell type lights, which are LED based and has been what is driving >my > > desire for the above. > > > > Alan > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of >Robert > > L. > > Nuckolls, III > > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 9:49 AM > > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update? > > > > --> > > > > > >> > >> > >>Anybody got an update on the potential annunciator panel that was being > >>discussed several months ago? > >> > >>Thanks > >> > >>Bob > > > > That topic was one of several being massaged around > > plates of tacos at the el Mexico cafe but it seems > > to have died out. None of the pepper-heads present > > has demonstrated an interest in stepping up to the > > project. > > > > Bob . . . > > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > > < with experiment. > > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Advertisement: Fresh jobs daily. Stop waiting for the newspaper. Search now! www.seek.com.au ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 16, 2006
From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Off topic - Battery Corrosion
Charles Brame wrote: > > > I recently fished out an old MagLite Flashlight. The D-cells in it > were dead, corroded and had spilled acid throughout most of the > inside of the flashlight. I managed to get the swollen batteries out > and cleaned up the threads in the base of the flashlight. But I can't > figure out an easy way to get the corrosion out of the inside of the > flashlight barrel. > > Is there a acid counteracting fluid that will neutralize/remove the > corrosion? Any suggestions other than pitching the light? > > Charlie Brame > RV-6A N11CB > > San Antonio If you kept the batteries & they are from a major maker, send them & the flashlight to the battery company & get a free replacement. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 16, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: B&C Alternator Cross-Reference
> >I have a B&C Special L-60, 60 amp alternator (S/N 0209131) that I think >has gone bad, but can't tell. Pep Boys and Advance Aircraft Parts all >have automated alternator testers that require a code to be entered for >the test. Any one know of the cross-referenced code to Ndenso that can >be used for the testing? > >Absent that, is there a reasonable ND product that's a facimile or >should I just wait for Monday and call B&C to order one up? It's not a stock ND part and won't "test" if the technician assumes otherwise. It's an externally fielded alternator and would have to be tested like a 1970's era alternator. A "real" alternator shop should be able to do this. But it was easy to test it on the airplane before it was removed. See Note 8 on page Z-8 of http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 17, 2006
Subject: Re: Annunciator Panel Update?
In a message dated 12/15/2006 9:41:58 PM Central Standard Time, aadamson(at)highrf.com writes: Ok, I've been doing a bit more thinking about this widget.... I'm really trying to avoid designing the kitchen sink into it, and also I don't want the complexity of multiple modules that all have to be interfaced. >>>> Hi Alan- not sure how useful this might be, but here's what I did on my RV- works pretty good, but not very fancy- might give you a useful idea or two... http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5126 There are 5 additional entries including the wiring diagram (available in ACAD) seen by clicking >>Next entry>> at top of pages. Fotos get bigger by clicking on them. Thanks again to Expercraft for the great website resource! >From The PossumWorks in TN Mark Phillips ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 2006
From: Todd Heffley <list(at)toddheffley.com>
Subject: Alan's Annuciator Panel
reat to see some neat innovation realtime. As for a reasonable cost solution for the display Placard. I am making Instrument Faces by printing on Velum with a laser printer at Kinko's. I use PowerPoint to layout the faces. Black fields with white letters allows light to show through only letters. Hot Laminate at kinkos. (thickest Laminate) Yeilds a HARD flat face, waterproof. Drill right through for switches. ~$10 per unit. Todd -- Todd Heffley todd _/2/_toddheffley_d0t_com (817)845-0145 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Off topic - Battery Corrosion
> >I recently fished out an old MagLite Flashlight. The D-cells in it >were dead, corroded and had spilled acid throughout most of the >inside of the flashlight. I managed to get the swollen batteries out >and cleaned up the threads in the base of the flashlight. But I can't >figure out an easy way to get the corrosion out of the inside of the >flashlight barrel. > >Is there a acid counteracting fluid that will neutralize/remove the >corrosion? Any suggestions other than pitching the light? > >Charlie Brame >RV-6A N11CB Actually, the active ingredients in flashlight batteries is more basic than acid (re: alkaline batteries . . . carbon zinc were also alkaline). Your chore is to find a solvent for the dried on remnants that is not also antagonistic to the metal of the flashlight. I often clean certain kinds of contamination off of parts using a dishwasher but dish washing powder is exceedingly alkaline and attacks the finish and base metal of aluminum. I believe you're going to find that the labor to recover this flashlight exceeds the value of the flashlight by several times and after you get the contamination removed, you may have only increased the damage to the flashlight. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Nathan Ulrich" <nulrich(at)technq.com>
Subject: Annunciator details
Date: Dec 17, 2006
Alan et al: I don't have a schematic of the annunciator panel. I was bad and just did the layout directly. It's a bunch of identical very simple circuits: low inputs ground the LEDs directly, high inputs ground them using a transistor. Then there are a bunch of diodes in the obvious places. I use 1/2 watt 240 ohm resistors with the bar LEDs to give ~30 mA on a 14 V supply voltage, higher value resistors on the discrete LEDs to balance the light output (to my eye). It is fed by 14 V directly when the nav lights are turned off, by the panel dimming rheostat when the nav lights are on. Not perfect, although these bar LEDs seem to track voltage fairly well, a microprocessor could do a better job. I added another photo of some of the annunciator components to picasaweb.google.com/nathantu although I didn't take any detailed photos of the assembly. Have to work on that. I was limited somewhat by two things: (1) My Bonanza is a certified aircraft, so putting a bunch of discrete components and lights in a box was deemed acceptable by my IA, whereas programming a microprocessor, even a little PIC, would require a 337 at the very least. (2) I'm a mechanical engineer, not a EE ;). My packaging constraints were very tight, and I had some unique needs, so my mechanical design isn't appropriate for broader uses. Given that my business is product development (though not in the aircraft world ;) I've thought quite a bit about a more general purpose annunciator product. I would probably do the following: Build it in a more modular fashion, with replaceable "tiles" of reverse engraved material that is also colored (green, red, or yellow) depending on the warning. That would allow the use of clusters of surface mount white LEDs instead of colored bar LEDs. Probably makes sense to have modules of 4 or 8 tiles which can be clipped together. Whether there is one processor per module or master and slave modules is a question for you EE types. Of course, if you make it too modular, then you are approaching the Korry type discrete annunciator light/buttons for certified aircraft (~$400 each last I checked, though). I'd be glad to give some feedback on the mechanical design issues when you guys settle on a spec. If there's enough demand, we have good CNC capabilities and could make up the housings in reasonably sized batches if it goes that far. Nathan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "rtitsworth" <rtitsworth(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Alan's Annuciator Panel
Date: Dec 17, 2006
Do you have a any pictures? -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Todd Heffley Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 8:55 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alan's Annuciator Panel reat to see some neat innovation realtime. As for a reasonable cost solution for the display Placard. I am making Instrument Faces by printing on Velum with a laser printer at Kinko's. I use PowerPoint to layout the faces. Black fields with white letters allows light to show through only letters. Hot Laminate at kinkos. (thickest Laminate) Yeilds a HARD flat face, waterproof. Drill right through for switches. ~$10 per unit. Todd -- Todd Heffley todd _/2/_toddheffley_d0t_com (817)845-0145 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 2006
From: JOHNATHAN MACY <bushpilot(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Fuse Link At Battery
I am building a Glastar that will have and IO-320 with an Aerosance FADEC. The electrical design is the Z-14 Dual Battery, Dual Alternator, Split Bus. The batteries will be located behind bulk head "A" which is at the back of the baggage area. From each battery there will be a 10 Awg wire feeding the main and aux battery bus respectively. The 10 Awg wires will run from batteries at the back up to the panel in the front. Where the 10 Awg wire connects to the battery, I would like to provide some type of wire short protection. Currently, I am planning on installing a 14 Awg fuse link. Any thoughts, suggestions or better recommendations? Thanks, Johnathan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Deems Herring <dsleepy47(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Off topic - Battery Corrosion
Date: Dec 17, 2006
> Is there a acid counteracting fluid that will neutralize/remove the > cor rosion? Any suggestions other than pitching the light?> > Charlie Brame> RV -6A N11CB> > San Antonio Have you tried the Alumaprep and Alodine used on aircraft parts? Deems H N1491R _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with gadgets on Windows Live Spaces http://discoverspaces.live.com?source=hmtag1&loc=us ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Erickson" <john.erickson(at)cox.net>
Subject: ANL distance to starter rehash
Date: Dec 17, 2006
Bob, I'm working on redoing my panel in my RV-8. I'm installing a Z-13 system and am working on understanding why things are the way you designed them. I'm looking at the 6 inch limit you put in between the ANL limiter coming off the alternator B terminal and the starter. I found this in the archives: >> >> >>All of the Aeroelectric 'Z' diagrams show the ANL current limiter mounted >>within 6 inches of the starter contactor. I would like to mount mine on >>the right side of the battery on a RV9. What wire size would you use ? I >>am using the B&C base with a 60A fuse. > > > The 6" figure for acceptable runs of un-protected wire > is a rule-of-thumb long practiced in certified aviation. > Admittedly, it's most often applied to small wires . . . > the kinds that come off the busses to supply varios > accessories. The alternator b-lead is a major distribution > feeder and is one of the biggest wires in the airplane. > Major feeders are not generally "protected". This practice > is supported by decades of service history and failure > data. > > The goal is to put any form of circuit protection for > a wire as close as practical to the source of the energy > that will burn the wire. Likelihood that departures > from the 6" 'rule' is going to cause you grief in the > future is exceedingly small. My personal choice for > all fat wires in closely located battery/bus/alternator > installations is 4AWG. > > Bob . . . My question is why the six inch rule would apply here. Isn't the ANL protecting the wire going from the alternator to the starter? Thanks much, John N94DW ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob McCallum" <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: ANL distance to starter rehash
Date: Dec 17, 2006
Yes. And the power source it's being protected from is the battery. Hence the ANL is close to the starter contactor, which is where the battery supply is coming from. Bob McC ----- Original Message ----- From: John Erickson To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 5:33 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: ANL distance to starter rehash Bob, I'm working on redoing my panel in my RV-8. I'm installing a Z-13 system and am working on understanding why things are the way you designed them. I'm looking at the 6 inch limit you put in between the ANL limiter coming off the alternator B terminal and the starter. I found this in the archives: >> >> >>All of the Aeroelectric 'Z' diagrams show the ANL current limiter mounted >>within 6 inches of the starter contactor. I would like to mount mine on >>the right side of the battery on a RV9. What wire size would you use ? I >>am using the B&C base with a 60A fuse.> > > The 6" figure for acceptable runs of un-protected wire> is a rule-of-thumb long practiced in certified aviation.> Admittedly, it's most often applied to small wires . . .> the kinds that come off the busses to supply varios> accessories. The alternator b-lead is a major distribution> feeder and is one of the biggest wires in the airplane.> Major feeders are not generally "protected". This practice> is supported by decades of service history and failure> data.> > The goal is to put any form of circuit protection for> a wire as close as practical to the source of the energy> that will burn the wire. Likelihood that departures> from the 6" 'rule' is going to cause you grief in the> future is exceedingly small. My personal choice for> all fat wires in closely located battery/bus/alternator> installations is 4AWG.> > Bob . . . My question is why the six inch rule would apply here. Isn't the ANL protecting the wire going from the alternator to the starter? Thanks much, John N94DW ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robert Feldtman <bobf(at)feldtman.com>
Subject: Re: Fuse Link At Battery
Date: Dec 17, 2006
On Sunday 17 December 2006 13:14, JOHNATHAN MACY wrote: Iid suggest 4 AWG welding cables. I have a glastar and it needs minimal voltage drop. I have a LOM engine and even with that having good cranking voltage. 10 AWG is not big enouf I'd say bobf N125GS > I am building a Glastar that will have and IO-320 with an Aerosance FADEC. > The electrical design is the Z-14 Dual Battery, Dual Alternator, Split Bus. > The batteries will be located behind bulk head "A" which is at the back of > the baggage area. From each battery there will be a 10 Awg wire feeding the > main and aux battery bus respectively. The 10 Awg wires will run from > batteries at the back up to the panel in the front. > > Where the 10 Awg wire connects to the battery, I would like to provide some > type of wire short protection. Currently, I am planning on installing a 14 > Awg fuse link. Any thoughts, suggestions or better recommendations? > > Thanks, > Johnathan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Erickson" <john.erickson(at)cox.net>
Subject: ANL distance to starter rehash
Date: Dec 17, 2006
Thanks Bob (although a different one than I expected. -)) It makes sense now. John _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob McCallum Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 4:36 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ANL distance to starter rehash Yes. And the power source it's being protected from is the battery. Hence the ANL is close to the starter contactor, which is where the battery supply is coming from. Bob McC ----- Original Message ----- From: John Erickson <mailto:john.erickson(at)cox.net> Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 5:33 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: ANL distance to starter rehash Bob, I'm working on redoing my panel in my RV-8. I'm installing a Z-13 system and am working on understanding why things are the way you designed them. I'm looking at the 6 inch limit you put in between the ANL limiter coming off the alternator B terminal and the starter. I found this in the archives: >> >> >>All of the Aeroelectric 'Z' diagrams show the ANL current limiter mounted >>within 6 inches of the starter contactor. I would like to mount mine on >>the right side of the battery on a RV9. What wire size would you use ? I >>am using the B&C base with a 60A fuse. > > > The 6" figure for acceptable runs of un-protected wire > is a rule-of-thumb long practiced in certified aviation. > Admittedly, it's most often applied to small wires . . . > the kinds that come off the busses to supply varios > accessories. The alternator b-lead is a major distribution > feeder and is one of the biggest wires in the airplane. > Major feeders are not generally "protected". This practice > is supported by decades of service history and failure > data. > > The goal is to put any form of circuit protection for > a wire as close as practical to the source of the energy > that will burn the wire. Likelihood that departures > from the 6" 'rule' is going to cause you grief in the > future is exceedingly small. My personal choice for > all fat wires in closely located battery/bus/alternator > installations is 4AWG. > > Bob . . . My question is why the six inch rule would apply here. Isn't the ANL protecting the wire going from the alternator to the starter? Thanks much, John N94DW href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Fuse Link At Battery
>I am building a Glastar that will have and IO-320 with an Aerosance FADEC. >The electrical design is the Z-14 Dual Battery, Dual Alternator, Split >Bus. The batteries will be located behind bulk head "A" which is at the >back of the baggage area. From each battery there will be a 10 Awg wire >feeding the main and aux battery bus respectively. The 10 Awg wires will >run from batteries at the back up to the panel in the front. > >Where the 10 Awg wire connects to the battery, I would like to provide >some type of wire short protection. Currently, I am planning on installing >a 14 Awg fuse link. Any thoughts, suggestions or better recommendations? This is generally not done in the TC aircraft world. BATTERY busses are located at the battery and the relatively short lead between contactor and bus does not call for protection. The general rule of thumb for always-hot wires in the airframe is that they be breakers of 5A or less . . . this would apply to your too-long bus feeder as well. Note the (*) on the wires between battery contactor and battery bus on all diagrams. This indicates that this wire's length should be minimized as much as practical. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Fuse Link At Battery
> >On Sunday 17 December 2006 13:14, JOHNATHAN MACY wrote: > >Iid suggest 4 AWG welding cables. I have a glastar and it needs minimal >voltage drop. I have a LOM engine and even with that having good cranking >voltage. 10 AWG is not big enouf I'd say 10AWG would be plenty big enough for a battery bus feeder. Battery busses drive only those devices that need to be operable when the battery master and alternator switches are OFF. This includes things like hobbs meter, clocks, courtesy lights, electrically dependent engine accessories, etc. It's doubtful that such loads would total more than 10A and 10AWG is fine. As cited in the earlier post, the battery bus feeder is always hot and it's length should be minimized. This places the battery bus AT the battery location and further suggests that all feeders from the bus be breakered at 5A or less (fused at 7A or less). If something really needs to be protected at higher levels (like a ECFI pump) then that accessory should be fitted with a "mini contactor" at the bus, not unlike the fat feeder to an e-bus illustrated in figure Z-32 of http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2006
From: <psiegel(at)fuse.net>
Subject: re:battery corrosion
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2006
From: <psiegel(at)fuse.net>
Subject: re: (flashight) battery corrosion
There are two things in my shop that drive me crazy: 1) Any drill index that is missing drill bits. Sometimes it is cheaper to just buy another drill index to replace the missing drill bit(s), but then of couse you end up with ANOTHER drilll index missing bits... 2) Any flashlights in non-working condition. Flashlights make great storage containers for dead batteries. Usually just replacing the batteries resolves that issue. But sometimes the batteries leak that white powdery crud. I have found that a good dose of ACF-50 Anti-Corrosion spray into a stubborn flashlight takes care of that. Sometimes you have to let it soak in for a while. Also, while taking apart a Mag-Light, I discovered that Mag-Lights have a spare bulb in the end cap! Hope this helps! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Murphy" <tmurphy(at)greenhills.net>
Subject: Z-11
Date: Dec 18, 2006
I'm a new builder considering the Z-11 system. Appears the Endurance Bus is powered from two sources, the Main Power Distribution Bus through the diode and or the Main Battery Bus through the Endurance Bus Alternate Feed switch. Why ? Is the Endurance Bus Alternate Feed switch on for normal flight operations ? Tom ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Z-11
>I'm a new builder considering the Z-11 system. Appears the Endurance Bus >is powered from two sources, the Main Power Distribution Bus through the >diode and or the Main Battery Bus through the Endurance Bus Alternate Feed >switch. Why ? Is the Endurance Bus Alternate Feed switch on for normal >flight operations ? Tom This is covered in the List archives, chapter 17 of the 'Connection, and various resources on http://aeroelectric.com Put "endurance bus" in the search box and hit "Google Search" The goal is to have two, independent sources of power for electro-whizzies that are useful for comfortable continuation of flight in battery-only operations . . . with endurance that meets your personal design goals for this mode of operation. The alternate feed switch and pathway should be pre-flight tested but left OFF for normal operations. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-11
Date: Dec 18, 2006
From: "Glaeser, Dennis A" <dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com>
Tom, No, the Endurance Bus Alternate Feed switch is meant for 'battery only' (alternator failed) operations. The reasons for this approach are: - eliminates the battery contactor (saves the energy it would otherwise draw) - configures your electrical system for battery-only operation with the flip of 2 switches: - E-Bus Alternate feed ON - Master switch OFF - redundant feed for essential stuff if the battery contactor fails The E-Bus should have only the essential items for continued flight (typically EFIS, radios, panel lights - if you fly at night. The goal is to have enough juice in the battery to last as long as your fuel (fairly easy to do unless you have an electrically dependent engine). When you arrive at your destination, if you want stuff that is not on the E-Bus (i.e. flaps, landing light, ...) you can turn the master back on for the last few minutes of flight. Dennis Glaeser ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - From: Tom Murphy (tmurphy(at)greenhills.net) Date: Mon Dec 18 - 9:32 AM I'm a new builder considering the Z-11 system. Appears the Endurance Bus is powered from two sources, the Main Power Distribution Bus through the diode and or the Main Battery Bus through the Endurance Bus Alternate Feed switch. Why ? Is the Endurance Bus Alternate Feed switch on for normal flight operations ? Tom ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com>
Subject: Re: Z-11
Date: Dec 18, 2006
...) you can turn the master back on for the last few minutes of flight. If the battery is flat - where is the power coming from ? John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glaeser, Dennis A" <dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 7:48 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-11 > > > Tom, > > No, the Endurance Bus Alternate Feed switch is meant for 'battery only' > (alternator failed) operations. The reasons for this approach are: > - eliminates the battery contactor (saves the energy it would > otherwise draw) > - configures your electrical system for battery-only operation > with the flip of 2 switches: > - E-Bus Alternate feed ON > - Master switch OFF > - redundant feed for essential stuff if the battery contactor > fails > > The E-Bus should have only the essential items for continued flight > (typically EFIS, radios, panel lights - if you fly at night. The goal > is to have enough juice in the battery to last as long as your fuel > (fairly easy to do unless you have an electrically dependent engine). > When you arrive at your destination, if you want stuff that is not on > the E-Bus (i.e. flaps, landing light, ...) you can turn the master back > on for the last few minutes of flight. > > Dennis Glaeser > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > From: Tom Murphy (tmurphy(at)greenhills.net) > Date: Mon Dec 18 - 9:32 AM > > I'm a new builder considering the Z-11 system. Appears the Endurance Bus > > is powered from two sources, the Main Power Distribution Bus through the > > diode and or the Main Battery Bus through the Endurance Bus Alternate > Feed switch. Why ? Is the Endurance Bus Alternate Feed switch on for > normal flight operations ? Tom > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "bob noffs" <icubob(at)newnorth.net>
Subject:
Date: Dec 18, 2006
hi all, what are builders doing to connect a trim servo to the cockpit? ''ray allen'' servo takes 5 wires . the company can supply a 5 wire cable. wires are each 26 ga. is that the way to go or is there a better way? 26 ga . seems pretty flimsy. any input appreciated. bob noffs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Todd Richmond" <trichmond(at)obermeyer.com>
Subject: Z-11
Date: Dec 18, 2006
Bob, I've tried to figure this out, but what is the downside of running with the essential bus closed? The reason I ask is this, if I need to use the e-bus there is a risk that I could open the battery master before closing the e-bus (i.e. panic and hit the switches in the wrong order). With a glass panel this would temporarily interrupt all power and require a re-boot. Thoughts? Thanks, Todd R Richmond RV-7A Fuse -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 12:29 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-11 >I'm a new builder considering the Z-11 system. Appears the Endurance Bus >is powered from two sources, the Main Power Distribution Bus through the >diode and or the Main Battery Bus through the Endurance Bus Alternate Feed >switch. Why ? Is the Endurance Bus Alternate Feed switch on for normal >flight operations ? Tom This is covered in the List archives, chapter 17 of the 'Connection, and various resources on http://aeroelectric.com Put "endurance bus" in the search box and hit "Google Search" The goal is to have two, independent sources of power for electro-whizzies that are useful for comfortable continuation of flight in battery-only operations . . . with endurance that meets your personal design goals for this mode of operation. The alternate feed switch and pathway should be pre-flight tested but left OFF for normal operations. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "glaesers" <glaesers(at)wideopenwest.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Z-11
Date: Dec 18, 2006
If you get immediate notification of alternator failure, and then minimize power use with the E-Bus architecture hopefully your battery won't be dead when you get to your destination. At least that's the plan... Dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Subject: Re: Re: Z-11 From: JOHN TIPTON (jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com) Date: Mon Dec 18 - 1:18 PM ...) you can turn the master back on for the last few minutes of flight. If the battery is flat - where is the power coming from ? John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "glaesers" <glaesers(at)wideopenwest.com>
Subject: Bench testing radios
Date: Dec 18, 2006
I'm putting my panel together in the warm basement, since the garage is cold here in Michigan. Soon I'll be at the point where I could power things up. My questions is regarding antennas. I don't have any need or desire to transmit, so as long as I don't ever hit a PTT button, is it OK to power up an SL30 and GNC300XL with no COMM antennas connected - or NAV antenna on the SL30? I have the antennas if it would be better to connect them. Thanks, Dennis Glaeser RV7A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "glaesers" <glaesers(at)wideopenwest.com>
Subject: (no subject) - servo connections
Date: Dec 18, 2006
I'm in the process of wiring my servos - using the Ray Allen servo wire. I've test run the elevator trim servo through that wire running the length of my RV7A fuselage with no problems. I can't tell the difference in speed or sound when running the servos through 15 feet of wire or connected directly to the battery. The individual wires are pretty thin, but I've been able to crimp on D-Sub conectors with no problem, and the 5 wire cable is plenty strong. It is very nice to not have to run individual wires. Dennis Glaeser ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------ From: bob noffs (icubob(at)newnorth.net) Date: Mon Dec 18 - 2:46 PM hi all, what are builders doing to connect a trim servo to the cockpit? ''ray allen'' servo takes 5 wires . the company can supply a 5 wire cable. wires are each 26 ga. is that the way to go or is there a better way? 26 ga . seems pretty flimsy. any input appreciated. bob noffs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2006
From: Ralph Hoover <hooverra(at)verizon.net>
Subject: A Different Christmas Poem
A Different Christmas Poem The embers glowed softly, and in their dim light, I gazed round the room and I cherished the sight. My wife was asleep, her head on my chest, My daughter beside me, angelic in rest. Outside the snow fell, a blanket of white, Transforming the yard to a winter delight. The sparkling lights in the tree I believe, Completed the magic that was Christmas Eve. My eyelids were heavy, my breathing was deep, Secure and surrounded by love I would sleep. In perfect contentment, or so it would seem, So I slumbered, perhaps I started to dream. The sound wasn't loud, and it wasn't too near, But I opened my eyes when it tickled my ear. Perhaps just a cough, I didn't quite know, Then the sure sound of footsteps outside in the snow. My soul gave a tremble, I struggled to hear, And I crept to the door just to see who was near. Standing out in the cold and the dark of the night, A lone figure stood, his face weary and tight. A soldier, I puzzled, some twenty years old, Perhaps a Marine, huddled here in the cold. Alone in the dark, he looked up and smiled, Standing watch over me, and my wife and my child. "What are you doing?" I asked without fear, "Come in this moment, it's freezing out here! Put down your pack, brush the snow from your sleeve, You should be at home on a cold Christmas Eve!" For barely a moment I saw his eyes shift, Away from the cold and the snow blown in drifts.. To the window that danced with a warm fire's light Then he sighed and he said "Its really all right, I'm out here by choice. I'm here every night." "It's my duty to stand at the front of the line, That separates you from the darkest of times. No one had to ask or beg or implore me, I'm proud to stand here like my fathers before me. My Gramps died at 'Pearl on a day in December," Then he sighed, "That's a Christmas 'Gram always remembers." My dad stood his watch in the jungles of 'Nam', And now it is my turn and so, here I am. I've not seen my own son in more than a while, But my wife sends me pictures, he's sure got her smile. Then he bent and he carefully pulled from his bag, The red, white, and blue... an American flag. I can live through the cold and the being alone, Away from my family, my house and my home. I can stand at my post through the rain and the sleet, I can sleep in a foxhole with little to eat. I can carry the weight of killing another, Or lay down my life with my sister and brother.. Who stand at the front against any and all, To ensure for all time that this flag will not fall." "So go back inside," he said, "harbor no fright, Your family is waiting and I'll be all right." "But isn't there something I can do, at the least, "Give you money," I asked, "or prepare you a feast? It seems all too little for all that you've done, For being away from your wife and your son." Then his eye welled a tear that held no regret, "Just tell us you love us, and never forget. To fight for our rights back at home while we're gone, To stand your own watch, no matter how long. For when we come home, either standing or dead, To know you remember we fought and we bled. Is payment enough, and with that we will trust, That we mattered to you as you mattered to us." PLEASE, Would you do me the kind favor of sending this to as many people as you can? Christmas will be coming soon and some credit is due to our U.S.service men and women for our being able to celebrate these festivities. Let's try in this small way to pay a tiny bit of what we owe. Make people stop and think of our heroes, living and dead, who sacrificed themselves for us. LCDR Jeff Giles, SC, USN 30th Naval Construc tion Regiment OIC, Logistics Cell One Al Taqqadum , Iraq. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re:
>hi all, > what are builders doing to connect a trim servo to the cockpit? ''ray > allen'' servo takes 5 wires . the company can supply a 5 wire cable. > wires are each 26 ga. is that the way to go or is there a better way? 26 > ga . seems pretty flimsy. Any input appreciated. 24AWG wire in the airframe is marginal for serviceability, 26AWG wire sucks. Recommend you transition as soon as practical to 22AWG by means of a connector . . . here's one way to do it. http://aeroelectric.com/articles/macservo/macservo.html Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Z-11
> > >Bob, > >I've tried to figure this out, but what is the downside of running with the >essential bus closed? The reason I ask is this, if I need to use the e-bus >there is a risk that I could open the battery master before closing the >e-bus (i.e. panic and hit the switches in the wrong order). With a glass >panel this would temporarily interrupt all power and require a re-boot. >Thoughts? > >Thanks, It doesn't hurt to run with it closed . . . but if one is subject to panic driven actions, then there is no magic pre-positioning of switches that will absolutely guarantee that don't do something that you'll later wish had been different. If you have active notification of alternator failure (low voltage warning light) then from the time your alternator quits (followed in seconds by low volts warning) to the time you begin to do something about it is not critical. Whether you take a minute or more to re-configure for battery only ops . . . or get 'er done in 2.3 seconds flat will have no appreciable difference in the outcome of the flight. In other words, it's an endurance bus, not an emergency bus. We're designing systems that are failure tolerant and have very low orders of probability of causing a bad day in the cockpit. So when the warning light flashes, fold the chart and finish the mouth-full of peanuts and Pepsi before you start flipping switches. The point is that we tend to worry (and even react badly) to situations not well understood. Know that an alternator failure need not be a big deal if you've done your homework for battery sizing, battery maintenance, and e-bus load sizing. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 18, 2006
Subject: Re: Wire for trim servos
Hi Bob- This stuff comes in pretty handy: http://steinair.com/wire.htm Scroll down to "Servo wire". Five 22ga for MAC trim and two 20ga for tail light/whatever (and just whut the doktur ordered for TruTrak servos). Take them wimpy wires from the MAC servo, strip back twice what you need for a butt splice, double it over and crimp. I also add a short skinny piece of heat shrink to the insulation to make sure the PIDG butt splice grabs aholt of the insulation... Here's a suggestion from Bob Nuckolls at aeroelectric.com: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/macservo/macservo.html and others have crimped d-sub pins with shrink tube over each connection (female to harness, male to servo at staggered lengths to avoid "snake swallowed a pig" syndrome) to the wires to make the connection as well. Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Vs" <dsvs(at)ca.rr.com>
Subject:
Date: Dec 18, 2006
Bob, For the RV elevator that plug will not fit through the provided hole. Some of us are using d sub pin sockets as the connector and heat shrinking them. I thought I saw that on your site. this method makes it possible to remove the elevator. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 5:24 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: >hi all, > what are builders doing to connect a trim servo to the cockpit? ''ray > allen'' servo takes 5 wires . the company can supply a 5 wire cable. > wires are each 26 ga. is that the way to go or is there a better way? 26 > ga . seems pretty flimsy. Any input appreciated. 24AWG wire in the airframe is marginal for serviceability, 26AWG wire sucks. Recommend you transition as soon as practical to 22AWG by means of a connector . . . here's one way to do it. http://aeroelectric.com/articles/macservo/macservo.html Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2006
From: D Fritz <dfritzj(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Annunciator Panel - The Display
Rather than using discrete LED's to annunciate what fault the system has sensed, why not just put in a simple three line display and annunciate the fault in words, after all the audio will direct you to look at the display, this might make the packaging a little easier and avoid having to make a bunch of labels. Dan __________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2006
From: Ralph Hoover <hooverra(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: ectric-List:
26 ga wire in a common sheath, properly routed and supported is plenty robust. The problems happen at the terminations. I recommend connectors with properly designed stain relief. I have selected a Switchcraft EN3 series connectors (http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T063/0289.pdf) This is a small diameter circular connector that is weather tight and strain relieved. It's more money than a cut-up D connector but it's a reliable stable connector. I will add a length of plastic tubing where the wire is routed through the elevator hinge area supported by clamps on both ends. Ralph Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > >> hi all, >> what are builders doing to connect a trim servo to the cockpit? >> ''ray allen'' servo takes 5 wires . the company can supply a 5 wire >> cable. wires are each 26 ga. is that the way to go or is there a >> better way? 26 ga . seems pretty flimsy. Any input appreciated. > > > 24AWG wire in the airframe is marginal for serviceability, > 26AWG wire sucks. Recommend you transition as soon as practical > to 22AWG by means of a connector . . . here's one way to do it. > > http://aeroelectric.com/articles/macservo/macservo.html > > Bob . . . > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: " Peter Laurence" <Dr.Laurence(at)mbdi.org>
Subject: Re: annunciator Autocad file
Date: Dec 19, 2006
Mark, Any chance of getting the DWF file for your annunciator? BTW, I just installed the static ports that I purchased from you. Nice Design. Email to plaurence@the-beach.net Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 8:42 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wire for trim servos Hi Bob- This stuff comes in pretty handy: http://steinair.com/wire.htm Scroll down to "Servo wire". Five 22ga for MAC trim and two 20ga for tail light/whatever (and just whut the doktur ordered for TruTrak servos). Take them wimpy wires from the MAC servo, strip back twice what you need for a butt splice, double it over and crimp. I also add a short skinny piece of heat shrink to the insulation to make sure the PIDG butt splice grabs aholt of the insulation... Here's a suggestion from Bob Nuckolls at aeroelectric.com: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/macservo/macservo.html and others have crimped d-sub pins with shrink tube over each connection (female to harness, male to servo at staggered lengths to avoid "snake swallowed a pig" syndrome) to the wires to make the connection as well. Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "glen matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: ICS Plus Nav/com
Date: Dec 19, 2006
Hi Bob et al- I've a friend with a problem (no, really...). He has an ICS Plus nav/com that had been marketed by Wag Aero at one time. It is now malfunctioning, and he would like to try to get it serviced. So far he's had no luck, either through Wag or the Internet. Although not exquisitely intuitive to use, it does have a lot of pretty neat and useful features, and I don't blame him for trying to get it fixed. Does anyone on the list have any (constructive) suggestions? glen matejcek aerobubba(at)earthlink.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Pleasants" <jpleasants(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: wingtip VOR antenna
Date: Dec 19, 2006
As a part of the installation of the landing light package in the wingtip, I put in a 6-inch strip of aluminum foil which came in the kit as a heat shield. I'm now contemplating (obsessing?) over the location for the VOR antenna. Will the strip of aluminum foil make a substancial difference in the reception capability of a wingtip antenna? All comments will be appreciated -- and Merry Christmas to all! Jim Pleasants RV-7A finishing kit on order ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: wingtip VOR antenna
> As a part of the installation of the landing light package in the > wingtip, I put in a 6-inch strip of aluminum foil which came in the kit > as a heat shield. > > I'm now contemplating (obsessing?) over the location for the VOR > antenna. Will the strip of aluminum foil make a substancial difference > in the reception capability of a wingtip antenna? > > All comments will be appreciated -- and Merry Christmas to all! EVERY conductor located within inches of ANY antenna will have SOME effect. If we were blessed with access to some of the very sophisticated antenna modeling and performance predicting software, we could probably quantity the degree to which your contemplated configuration is affected. No antenna mounted on an airframe is "perfect" and many suffer from deep performance nulls on some look-axis . . . yet most antennas are deemed "satisfactory" by users who fly them. Anyone's non-quantified predictions attempting to answer your question might just as well be offered by throwing darts at the whole range of possible answers. Give it a try and if you perceive some degraded performance, you're in a position to do the repeatable experiment where the foil is removed and the antenna re-evaluated in the same operating conditions. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2006
Subject: wingtip VOR antenna
From: James H Nelson <rv9jim(at)juno.com>
Merry Christmas Bob, thanks for being there for us. Jim Nelson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2006
From: JOHNATHAN MACY <bushpilot(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: Fuse Link At Battery
Bob . . . The authority rests with experiment. --Lawrence M. Krauss Thanks for the follow up and feedback. The need to experiment at the wrong time has been averted. I appreciate it. Happy holidays to you and yours. Johnathan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "bob noffs" <icubob(at)newnorth.net>
Subject: trim servo wiring
Date: Dec 19, 2006
thanks to all who that replied to my wiring question. i got some good ideas. gees bob n., you have pictures for everything! bob noffs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: trim servo wiring
>thanks to all who that replied to my wiring question. i got some good >ideas. gees bob n., you have pictures for everything! I had a picture for the individual d-sub pins under shrink but I don't know where it got off to. I'm planning on adding it to the options in the comic book. Ain't electronics wunderful . . . 'specially those cameras! Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 2006
From: <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: wingtip VOR antenna (don't ?)
Jim: If you are using the VOR for secondary navigation/VFR than it will be fine. If you plan on IFR flight and using the VOR to fly airways and approaches (VOR/LOC/ILS) than consider bagging the wing tip NAV antenna. The wing tip NAV antenna works but that is a relevant term. The inside wing tip antenna is not going to work as well as an external one EVER. The external antenna is hands down better. I assume you are doing this for drag reasons? Well an external VOR antenna at 200 mph cost you no more than 1/2 MPH. That is it. Also is you use fiberglass element antenna (white) it blends well with fuselage. My RV-4 was mostly white and antenna was on belly under horz stab was white. You'll never noticed it on the ground. STAY A WAY FROM THE WING TIP COM antenna, they are terrible. Since most of us are using GPS the VOR antenna is not critical but COMM is key to safety. It's up to you and you can always add an external antenna. I'm building a RV-7 and had a RV-4. HERE are some things to recommend a pair of standard Cat Whisker VOR antenna: Drag? Only 0.50 mph max at 200 mph Racing? Removable in a minute (*depending how u mount) Mount? Belly under tail or top of Vert Stab. *Here is a pic of the belly mount on my RV-4 http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/4826/temp28st.jpg Here is another builder's Vert stab mount (RV-9A) http://www.n2prise.org/Photo2/DSCL0268.JPG *I like the belly mount, shorter coax run, remove antenna in a minute. Two screws, secure coax with safety wire and stuff back in fuselage leaving a piece of safety wire out to retrieve the coax later & tape over wire & hole speed tape. George RV-4/RV-7 >From: "Jim Pleasants" jpleasants(at)bellsouth.net >Subject: AeroElectric-List: wingtip VOR antenna >I'm now contemplating (obsessing?) over the location for the VOR >antenna. Will the strip of aluminum foil make a substancial difference >in the reception capability of a wingtip antenna? >All comments will be appreciated -- and Merry Christmas to all! >Jim Pleasants >RV-7A finishing kit on order __________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "PIAVIS" <piavis(at)comcast.net>
Subject: FW: S704 Relay Wire Sizing
Date: Dec 21, 2006
In sizing wires per the Z-13 diagram on the S704 relay for the SD-8, most of the wires supporting the SD-8 are 12AWG. For the jumper from the + side of the contactor on the relay, to the COM tab, can I use something as low as an 18 or 20 AWG wire for this, I'm not sure of the current flow through this. Based on other posts on the subject, there's only about .1A on the line from the contactor ground tab through to the breaker and switch, so I should be able to go to a much smaller wire here. Thanks, Jim -7 Redmond, WA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 22, 2006
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Some experiments fail
Some ideas look good, until you try to implement them. Like using the pitot tube for an antennae. It's worth a shot, right? There's even some documentation of the technique at http://contrails.free.fr/instruments_ant_sonex.php Pictures of my attempt are at http://ernest.isa-geek.org/Delta/Pictures/PitotAntennae1.jpg and http://ernest.isa-geek.org/Delta/Pictures/PitotAntennae2.jpg I was able to borrow a "MFJ HF/VHF SWR Analyzer, Model MFJ-259B", do a sweep from 110 to 140 MHz. A few readings are: MHz SWR R X 110 15.4 20 81 115 20.2 2 21 120 14.9 3 1 125 10.8 14 47 130 8.6 403 0 (lowest SWR) 135 14.4 9 72 140 18.6 3 25 I didn't think I could get much below an SWR of 2.5 or so, and was willing to accept the resulting poor performance; but, 8.6 is really high. But then I put the rubber ducky antennae from my handheld scanner on the instrument. Everything in the aviation band was ">25", ie out of the instruments range. It dropped into range at 130MHz and to 1.6 at 149.5. Considering that the handheld scanner seems to work, how viable would an SWR of 10 to 20 work over here on the crowded eastern seaboard for mostly day VFR operations? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Some experiments fail
Date: Dec 22, 2006
Gee Ernest, being an old Ham radio operator, I would be horrified to see anything higher than 2 SWR on my antennas {:>) But, don't have any idea how it would affect aircraft air ground comms. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernest Christley" <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:28 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Some experiments fail > > > Some ideas look good, until you try to implement them. Like using the > pitot tube for an antennae. It's worth a shot, right? There's even some > documentation of the technique at > http://contrails.free.fr/instruments_ant_sonex.php > > Pictures of my attempt are at > http://ernest.isa-geek.org/Delta/Pictures/PitotAntennae1.jpg > and > http://ernest.isa-geek.org/Delta/Pictures/PitotAntennae2.jpg > > I was able to borrow a "MFJ HF/VHF SWR Analyzer, Model MFJ-259B", do a > sweep from 110 to 140 MHz. A few readings are: > > MHz SWR R X > 110 15.4 20 81 > 115 20.2 2 21 > 120 14.9 3 1 > 125 10.8 14 47 > 130 8.6 403 0 (lowest SWR) > 135 14.4 9 72 > 140 18.6 3 25 > > > I didn't think I could get much below an SWR of 2.5 or so, and was willing > to accept the resulting poor performance; but, 8.6 is really high. But > then I put the rubber ducky antennae from my handheld scanner on the > instrument. Everything in the aviation band was ">25", ie out of the > instruments range. It dropped into range at 130MHz and to 1.6 at 149.5. > > Considering that the handheld scanner seems to work, how viable would an > SWR of 10 to 20 work over here on the crowded eastern seaboard for mostly > day VFR operations? > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 22, 2006
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: FW: S704 Relay Wire Sizing
Hi Jim Yes I agree with you. Since the coil circuit has a 5 amp CB in it I think you could go all the way down to 22awg if you wanted. I also think that 12awg is appropriate for the 20 amp alternator but overkill for an 8 amp unit. Ken PIAVIS wrote: > In sizing wires per the Z-13 diagram on the S704 relay for the SD-8, > most of the wires supporting the SD-8 are 12AWG. For the jumper from > the + side of the contactor on the relay, to the COM tab, can I use > something as low as an 18 or 20 AWG wire for this, Im not sure of the > current flow through this. Based on other posts on the subject, > theres only about .1A on the line from the contactor ground tab > through to the breaker and switch, so I should be able to go to a much > smaller wire here. > > Thanks, > > Jim > > -7 > > Redmond, WA > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 22, 2006
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Some experiments fail
what kind of impedance matching schemes did you try? The angle between the antenna and ground pigtails in the picture looks really narrow for best results. What sort of ground are you working against? Maybe a better approach would be to engineer a suitable antenna, then hollow it out to act as a pitot, versus designing a pitot and then trying to match it electrically to a transmitter. -Bill B. On 12/22/06, Ernest Christley wrote: > > Some ideas look good, until you try to implement them. Like using the > pitot tube for an antennae. It's worth a shot, right? There's even > some documentation of the technique at > http://contrails.free.fr/instruments_ant_sonex.php > > Pictures of my attempt are at > http://ernest.isa-geek.org/Delta/Pictures/PitotAntennae1.jpg > and > http://ernest.isa-geek.org/Delta/Pictures/PitotAntennae2.jpg > > I was able to borrow a "MFJ HF/VHF SWR Analyzer, Model MFJ-259B", do a > sweep from 110 to 140 MHz. A few readings are: > > MHz SWR R X > 110 15.4 20 81 > 115 20.2 2 21 > 120 14.9 3 1 > 125 10.8 14 47 > 130 8.6 403 0 (lowest SWR) > 135 14.4 9 72 > 140 18.6 3 25 > > > I didn't think I could get much below an SWR of 2.5 or so, and was > willing to accept the resulting poor performance; but, 8.6 is really > high. But then I put the rubber ducky antennae from my handheld scanner > on the instrument. Everything in the aviation band was ">25", ie out of > the instruments range. It dropped into range at 130MHz and to 1.6 at 149.5. > > Considering that the handheld scanner seems to work, how viable would an > SWR of 10 to 20 work over here on the crowded eastern seaboard for > mostly day VFR operations? > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 2006
From: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Re: Some experiments fail
> > Maybe a better approach would be to engineer a suitable antenna, then > hollow it out to act as a pitot, Hi all, In my buddy's article at http://contrails.free.fr/instruments_ant_sonex.php, he says he designed the antenna out of an aluminum tube, and matched it to the particular form of the vertical fin, acting as a ground plane. He as not flown yet, and advises to wait for real world tests. Season's greetings to all, Best regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "PIAVIS" <piavis(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Voltage Across Open Batt Contactor
Date: Dec 22, 2006
After connecting the battery contactor per Z-13, is it common to have about .04 V across the contactor when open? I'm sure I'll have plenty of basic Electrical 101 questions as this is sure my weak area on this RV so far. But I'm learning! Jim -7 Redmond, WA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 2006
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Some experiments fail
Gilles Thesee wrote: > <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr> > > >> >> Maybe a better approach would be to engineer a suitable antenna, then >> hollow it out to act as a pitot, > Hi all, > > In my buddy's article at > http://contrails.free.fr/instruments_ant_sonex.php, he says he > designed the antenna out of an aluminum tube, and matched it to the > particular form of the vertical fin, acting as a ground plane. > He as not flown yet, and advises to wait for real world tests. > That would be the intelligent way to do it, but like Bob has said several times, the normal procedure is for structural guys to have their say, then the aerodynamics guys, yada, yada, yada, and somewhere down the list the antennae guys get to say something. In my case, I'm using Dynon's AOA indicator. It doesn't include a static port (which you think it would for $200US), and there isn't a nice place for one on the sides of a Delta, so I had to engineer one in. The antennae experiment proceeded from that point. I tried adding some coils of 22AWG. Wrapped around a drill bit, and held with tape, I put them in series with the element. It made things so much worse that I didn't even bother recording numbers. I've got some ferrite beads, but don't know if it's worth disassembling the coax connector to install them. I guess it couldn't hurt at this point. The ground is basically the entire welded tube airframe. The black wire coming from the coax connetor is grounded next to the antennae's base. The connector is also mounted on a strip of stainless that is riveted to another piece of stainless that is in turn welded to the airframe. Is it possible that some combination of fiddling can bring the SWR down from the astronomical 8.6 to something below a 3? I think something below 3 would be marginal but acceptable. I think. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: Some experiments fail
Date: Dec 23, 2006
Ernest, Tying a VHF antenna to a pitot design is very ingenious..... and deserves some serious thought! Kudos to you for the idea. What needs doing is to revise the length of the pitot to match the needs of a 1/4wave monopole OR devising matching circuit to adjust the pitot to 50 ohms impedance at 127 Megs. I don't think devising apitot system from an antenna is the way to go. I am hesitant to believe the matching scheme shown would measure the true impedance/results, but can't offer any advice in that area. The latter would be the easiest if not the best (one always seems to prefer a natural resonance) but it cries out for a suggestion......... It strikes me that the vertical length might be the problem since the greater depth would reduce losses due to some horizontal content - the pitot need. Is this a metal skin or fibreglass? Good luck! Ferg Kyle Europa A064 914 Classic ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Fuse Link At Battery
>Bob . . . >The authority rests with experiment. > --Lawrence M. Krauss > >Thanks for the follow up and feedback. The need to experiment at the wrong >time has been averted. > >I appreciate it. Happy holidays to you and yours. >Johnathan Thanks to yourself and others for the kind words. I'll endeavor to remain worthy of them. I've been off line for a few days. Seems the flu bug came to visit and I've been tethered to the commode on a very short leash for the first two days. Dr. Dee and I are going to go for a walk in the park this morning to try and stir up some muscles and circulatory systems that have been setting idle too long! Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob McCallum" <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Voltage Across Open Batt Contactor
Date: Dec 23, 2006
Jim; If the contactor is open and there are any loads connected on the downstream side then you would expect to see approximately battery voltage across it, just like any other open switch with a load attached. However if there are absolutely no loads at all attached then you would see no voltage across it as there would be no return path for the electricity to complete your meter circuit and it would read zero. The reading you are getting is so close to zero that you should conclude that you have essentially no loads connected downstream of the contactor, but there is a tiny leakage sufficient to provide a return path and indicate on your meter. Depending on your meter, this resistance would be in the millions of ohms indicating, perhaps, simply the insulation resistance to ground of some component or other. (quite normal) If you turn on anything downstream then you will get a reading of battery voltage if all is well. Bob McC ----- Original Message ----- From: PIAVIS To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 1:30 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Voltage Across Open Batt Contactor After connecting the battery contactor per Z-13, is it common to have about .04 V across the contactor when open? I'm sure I'll have plenty of basic Electrical 101 questions as this is sure my weak area on this RV so far. But I'm learning! Jim -7 Redmond, WA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 2006
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Some experiments fail
Fergus Kyle wrote: > > Ernest, > Tying a VHF antenna to a pitot design is very ingenious..... and deserves > some serious thought! Kudos to you for the idea. > What needs doing is to revise the length of the pitot to match the needs of > a 1/4wave monopole OR devising matching circuit to adjust the pitot to 50 > ohms impedance at 127 Megs. I don't think devising apitot system from an > antenna is the way to go. > I am hesitant to believe the matching scheme shown would measure the > true impedance/results, but can't offer any advice in that area. > The latter would be the easiest if not the best (one always seems to > prefer a natural resonance) but it cries out for a suggestion......... It > strikes me that the vertical length might be the problem since the greater > depth would reduce losses due to some horizontal content - the pitot need. > Is this a metal skin or fibreglass? > Good luck! > > Fiberglass and fabric skins over a 4130 frame with stainless steel rib structure. I've been playing with the position of the jumper from the pitot to connector, and the best I've been able to come up with is a low SWR of 6.5 or so. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Some experiments fail
Date: Dec 23, 2006
On 23-Dec-06, at 11:52 AM, Ernest Christley wrote: > I'm using Dynon's AOA indicator. It doesn't include a static port > (which you think it would for $200US), and there isn't a nice place > for one on the sides of a Delta, so I had to engineer one in. The > antennae experiment proceeded from that point. > Static ports need to be in a location where the pressure is very, very close to the ambient pressure if they are to provide an accurate static source. Pitot tubes in single-engine aircraft are almost always mounted below the wing. The pressure below the wing is higher than the ambient pressure - otherwise no lift would be generated. This makes a pitot tube a very poor place to locate a static source, unless you are prepared to test a large number of different locations, with several test flights at each location. I've watched one small aircraft manufacturer do this exercise with a Piper pitot tube. They invested many hours of flight testing on several different configurations before finding a location that worked acceptably well with a custom angle on the bottom of a Piper pitot tube - the angle changes the pressure sensed at the static source. Kevin Horton RV-8 (Finishing Kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Harold Kovac" <kayce33(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Some experiments fail
Date: Dec 23, 2006
Hi Kevin, I'm building an RV9A and have installed the Dynon pitot. Besides the ram air,there's a small hole on the bottom for static air, that way I suspect the engineering's already been done. Food for thought at any rate. Harold ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Horton" <khorton01(at)rogers.com> Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 5:02 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Some experiments fail > > > On 23-Dec-06, at 11:52 AM, Ernest Christley wrote: > >> I'm using Dynon's AOA indicator. It doesn't include a static port >> (which you think it would for $200US), and there isn't a nice place for >> one on the sides of a Delta, so I had to engineer one in. The antennae >> experiment proceeded from that point. >> > > Static ports need to be in a location where the pressure is very, very > close to the ambient pressure if they are to provide an accurate static > source. Pitot tubes in single-engine aircraft are almost always mounted > below the wing. The pressure below the wing is higher than the ambient > pressure - otherwise no lift would be generated. This makes a pitot tube > a very poor place to locate a static source, unless you are prepared to > test a large number of different locations, with several test flights at > each location. > > I've watched one small aircraft manufacturer do this exercise with a > Piper pitot tube. They invested many hours of flight testing on several > different configurations before finding a location that worked acceptably > well with a custom angle on the bottom of a Piper pitot tube - the angle > changes the pressure sensed at the static source. > > Kevin Horton > RV-8 (Finishing Kit) > Ottawa, Canada > http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 2006
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Some experiments fail
Kevin Horton wrote: > > > On 23-Dec-06, at 11:52 AM, Ernest Christley wrote: > >> I'm using Dynon's AOA indicator. It doesn't include a static port >> (which you think it would for $200US), and there isn't a nice place >> for one on the sides of a Delta, so I had to engineer one in. The >> antennae experiment proceeded from that point. >> > > Static ports need to be in a location where the pressure is very, very > close to the ambient pressure if they are to provide an accurate > static source. Pitot tubes in single-engine aircraft are almost > always mounted below the wing. The pressure below the wing is higher > than the ambient pressure - otherwise no lift would be generated. > This makes a pitot tube a very poor place to locate a static source, > unless you are prepared to test a large number of different locations, > with several test flights at each location. That's why I copped out and just used the location the plans called for. Heh, I can't run but so many experiments at once!! 8*) After 4 hours of fiddling, I was able to drop the SWR to 7.3 by moving the point where it attaches to the tube. I actually was able to get it to drop to 1 at one point. I installed a T connector...the antennae on the leg, the line coming off one side of the top and a 50 ohm termination on the other side. I don't think that counts though. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 2006
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Some experiments fail
Harold Kovac wrote: > > > Hi Kevin, > I'm building an RV9A and have installed the Dynon pitot. > Besides the ram air,there's a small hole on the bottom for static air, > that way I suspect the engineering's already been done. > Food for thought at any rate. > Harold The hole in the bottom rear is a drain hole. The hole at the front on the slant is for the AoA indicator. There's no static. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Harold Kovac" <kayce33(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Some experiments fail
Date: Dec 23, 2006
Thanks, I don't have the instrument yet, and assumed....it's plumbed to the wing root...probably another year to get a look at the real thing. Harold ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernest Christley" <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:09 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Some experiments fail > > > Harold Kovac wrote: >> >> >> Hi Kevin, >> I'm building an RV9A and have installed the Dynon pitot. >> Besides the ram air,there's a small hole on the bottom for static air, >> that way I suspect the engineering's already been done. >> Food for thought at any rate. >> Harold > > The hole in the bottom rear is a drain hole. The hole at the front on the > slant is for the AoA indicator. There's no static. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Some experiments fail
Date: Dec 23, 2006
Harold, 1. I think that is actually a water drain hole. 2. If someone did the engineering and flight testing required to use a static source on a pitot tube, it would be specific to one exact mounting location and mounting angle on only one type of aircraft. It wouldn't be practical for Dynon to do the flight testing required to define a mounting location for each type of aircraft that people would want to mount this pitot on. Each aircraft type would probably require at least a dozen hours of flight testing, with mod work required to move the pitot tube around every two or three flights. Huge job. Kevin On 23-Dec-06, at 8:48 PM, Harold Kovac wrote: > > > Hi Kevin, > I'm building an RV9A and have installed the Dynon pitot. > Besides the ram air,there's a small hole on the bottom for static > air, that way I suspect the engineering's already been done. > Food for thought at any rate. > Harold > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Horton" > > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 5:02 PM > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Some experiments fail > > >> >> >> On 23-Dec-06, at 11:52 AM, Ernest Christley wrote: >> >>> I'm using Dynon's AOA indicator. It doesn't include a static >>> port (which you think it would for $200US), and there isn't a >>> nice place for one on the sides of a Delta, so I had to engineer >>> one in. The antennae experiment proceeded from that point. >>> >> >> Static ports need to be in a location where the pressure is very, >> very close to the ambient pressure if they are to provide an >> accurate static source. Pitot tubes in single-engine aircraft >> are almost always mounted below the wing. The pressure below the >> wing is higher than the ambient pressure - otherwise no lift >> would be generated. This makes a pitot tube a very poor place to >> locate a static source, unless you are prepared to test a large >> number of different locations, with several test flights at each >> location. >> >> I've watched one small aircraft manufacturer do this exercise with >> a Piper pitot tube. They invested many hours of flight testing >> on several different configurations before finding a location >> that worked acceptably well with a custom angle on the bottom of >> a Piper pitot tube - the angle changes the pressure sensed at the >> static source. >> >> Kevin Horton >> RV-8 (Finishing Kit) >> Ottawa, Canada >> http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 >> >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mark Chamberlain" <mchamberlain(at)runbox.com>
Subject: Daisy-Chaining Stereo Inputs
Date: Dec 24, 2006
Hi All and Happy Christmas! I am trying to get stereo input from multiple sources (MP3, GPS, Traffic etc.) in to my FlightCom 403 intercom. I figured it might work by just "daisy-chaining" them together but if I have more than one plugged it at once I get some sort of nasty feedback. Is there some sort of device I need in between them so they can't "see" each other? Thanks for your help, Mark - N234C Flying - 48 hours ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 24, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Daisy-Chaining Stereo Inputs
>Hi All and Happy Christmas! > >I am trying to get stereo input from multiple sources (MP3, GPS, Traffic >etc.) in to my FlightCom 403 intercom. I figured it might work by just >"daisy-chaining" them together but if I have more than one plugged it at >once I get some sort of nasty feedback. Is there some sort of device I >need in between them so they can't "see" each other? > >Thanks for your help, The problem is not so much one of "feedback" as it is for "loading". Each source, while not supplying energy to the signal stream presents a potential for being a load. this means that while one source is being used, it sees multiple loads that may affect both signal intensity and frequency response. MUCH better that you use an isolation (mixing) amplifier if you want to use multiple sources simultaneously or a simple two-pole, three-position switch (like miniature 4-pole, on-on-on switch) for selecting each source one at a time. However, you won't damage anything with the daisy chaining experiment. Give it a try. It might prove satisfactory to your needs . . . it's just not the best we know how to do. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 24, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Some experiments fail
> >Harold, > >1. I think that is actually a water drain hole. > >2. If someone did the engineering and flight testing required to use >a static source on a pitot tube, it would be specific to one exact >mounting location and mounting angle on only one type of aircraft. >It wouldn't be practical for Dynon to do the flight testing required >to define a mounting location for each type of aircraft that people >would want to mount this pitot on. Each aircraft type would probably >require at least a dozen hours of flight testing, with mod work >required to move the pitot tube around every two or three flights. >Huge job. There are a number of probes that offer both static and pitot pressure sensing. Obviously, the dynamic portion has an opening on the end and the static portion is generally ported to the external environment through a ring of holes just behind the nose opening. Pitot-Static probes, as you already know, have two fluid fittings instead of one. They are much more difficult to build under the current ice-survival rules. See complex maze of passages JUST to handle ice crystals and ingested moisture for a pitot-only tube at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Pitot_Tube/Pitot_Tube_Heater.jpg It may now be impossible if not simply impractical to combine both functions into a single device. But for non-aviation, precision airflow measurements, combined pitot-static probes are quite common. See: http://www.unitedsensorcorp.com/pitot_frame.html http://www.flowkinetics.com/measurement.htm If I can put my hands on one of the older pitot-static probes I've had laying around here, I'll post some photos. But Kevin is right-on with his observations of the difficulty for achieving acceptable pitot-static measurements in a consumer environment (read repeatable from airplane to airplane and known, stable boundaries on accuracy). You wouldn't believe the hoops we've jumped through to meet the new RVSM (reduced vertical separation minimums) that have effectively doubled the number of over-water airways by stacking airplanes in at twice the old vertical density. Now, one of the really hot items on the pilot's pre-flight inspection is to spit-polish the areas around the pitot static system ports to make sure that no contamination has altered the aircraft's ability to detect and hold an assigned altitude. Even after all the fussing is over and the type-certificate is awarded, few if any systems are perfect. This give rise to the Calibrated Airspeed and Calibrated Altitude differential charts found in many pilot's operating handbooks. Good pitot static measurements become exponentially difficult as your need for accuracy drops below 2 or 3 percent. The pitot static systems installed on our flight test aircraft are big, heavy, and would look really ugly installed on your RV. The J-3 stuck a piece of copper tube out in the breeze ahead of and below the wing. The performance was adequate for that class of airplane and the way it was used. I used to show my renters how to comfortably operate that airplane with the panel completely covered. But as we move up in performance and our demands on knowing the real numbers go up, it can be difficult and expensive to get them all right under all conditions. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 24, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Oops!
. . . and you thought failure to drop the wheels on your Bonanza was expensive! See: http://www.zianet.com/tedmorris/dg/bombers4.html Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 24, 2006
From: Sally Kilishek <s_kilishek(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Over Voltage
I'm using a generic Ford regulator (Wells VR749) and a B&C OVM-14 overvoltage module wired as per Z-22 in my RV8. It worked fine for a short time, but after about 4 hours of flying, the overvoltage indicator light started flickering. Bus voltage is rising above 15 volts (one time as high as 16 volts), then dropping back below 15 volts and immediately rising again. It looks to me like the regulator isn't regulating and that the OV module is cutting off the field excitation until voltage drops below 15. I've replaced the regulator twice, but the problem continues. Is there somewhere else I should be looking? George N57GK __________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 24, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Some experiments fail
>After 4 hours of fiddling, I was able to drop the SWR to 7.3 by moving the >point where it attaches to the tube. I actually was able to get it to >drop to 1 at one point. I installed a T connector...the antennae on the >leg, the line coming off one side of the top and a 50 ohm termination on >the other side. I don't think that counts though. Sounds like you're attempting to "gamma-match" the mast of your pitot tube as a useful radiator. http://www.vk1od.net/GammaMatch/gamma.htm For this technique to begin to be successful, the overall length of the mast must be close to 1/4 wavelength at the frequency of interest. In the case of comm antennas, let us assume a center frequency of 126 Mhz. So 300/126 yields 2.4 meters for full-wave or .6 meteres for 1/4-wave. In the clumsy system currently favored by the intellectually unwashed, this comes to 23.4 inches. This is the length of pitot tube you need to start with. Now, a Google search of "gamma match" on the 'net will yield a wealth of data on the physics and techniques of gamma matching. In a nutshell, your goal is to attach a 50 ohm feedline to some point along the antenna's length so as to achieve the best match . . . obviously, the antenna's impedance at the base is damned-small-ohms and up in the gazillion-ohms range at the top. SOMEWHERE between the base and the top, we should find the utopian 50 ohm point. Problem is that any conductor you use to run between end of the coax and the physical attach point on the antenna has significant INDUCTANCE at our frequency of interest. This is why all the articles you'll find on gamma-matching will incorporate two variables. Physical attach-point on the radiator and an adjustable capacitance for "series-resonating" the offending inductance and making it disappear. You don't describe the details of your experiment but if you have a better description and perhaps photos to share, we can help you move this exercise forward. Just know that the first essential elements are overall length (at least 1/4 wave), feed point location and inductive reactance elimination by use of variable capacitor. These features go ONLY to achievement of an acceptable standing wave ratio. Once the antenna appears to be efficiently accepting (or delivering) energy, then one can turn to issues of radiation efficiency. Is the polarization optimized? Is the radiation pattern acceptably devoid of performance killing nulls? Is the radiation resistance a significant if not major portion of the antenna total impedance. I've seen antennas with 1:1 swr having impedances of 50 ohms and radiation resistances on the order of 1 ohm . . . the thing gets about 2% of applied energy launched into the ether while the rest is a feeble and inefficient attempt to de-ice the antenna. For those of us who are interested in the simple-ideas that support antenna performance, may I suggest a peek at: http://www2.arrl.org/tis/info/whyantradiates.html Antennas are really interesting pieces of technology and it doesn't take a lot of equipment and even less "black art" to fabricate useful designs. I would only caution that if the goal is to achieve a 1/4 to 1/2-knot more speed by reducing antenna drag on your OBAM aircraft, be aware that the return on investment for the $time$ expended might be disappointingly small. If the goal is to understand more about how these critters work, then your return on investment can be considerably better. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 24, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Daisy-Chaining Stereo Inputs
>> >>I am trying to get stereo input from multiple sources (MP3, GPS, Traffic >>etc.) in to my FlightCom 403 intercom. I figured it might work by just >>"daisy-chaining" them together but if I have more than one plugged it at >>once I get some sort of nasty feedback. Is there some sort of device I >>need in between them so they can't "see" each other? >> >>Thanks for your help, > > The problem is not so much one of "feedback" as it is > for "loading". Each source, while not supplying energy > to the signal stream presents a potential for being a load. > this means that while one source is being used, it sees multiple > loads that may affect both signal intensity and frequency > response. MUCH better that you use an isolation (mixing) amplifier > if you want to use multiple sources simultaneously or a simple > two-pole, three-position switch (like miniature 4-pole, on-on-on > switch) for selecting each source one at a time. > > However, you won't damage anything with the daisy chaining > experiment. Give it a try. It might prove satisfactory to your > needs . . . it's just not the best we know how to do. I forgot to add. There's a brief discussion of multiple source audio mixing in the current update chapter to the 'Connection which you're free to download at: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/18Audio_R11.pdf Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: Back-Up Battery ground
Date: Dec 24, 2006
Since I will have to put some wheight in the tail of my RV-9A because of W&B issues, I am planning to install a small battery (probably around 4.5Ah, depending on its own wheight) to act as a back-up battery for some avionics (EFIS and Auto-pilot). For the (+) terminal of that future battery, I already passed a AWG#14 tefzel wire all the way from the tail to the back of instrument pannel, but for the (-) wire, I am thinking that I could attach it to a ground lug that I already have in the tail, which is directly connected to the "Main" battery (-) terminal, and where are also connected the ground wires from the tail light, the tail strobe beacon and the elevator trim motor. Can I connect that battery's (-) terminal to the tail ground lug ? Is there a possibility for ground loop ? Carlos ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Daisy-Chaining Stereo Inputs
Date: Dec 24, 2006
> > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> > Date: 2006/12/24 Sun AM 11:37:39 CST > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Daisy-Chaining Stereo Inputs > > > > >Hi All and Happy Christmas! > > > >I am trying to get stereo input from multiple sources (MP3, GPS, Traffic > >etc.) in to my FlightCom 403 intercom. I figured it might work by just > >"daisy-chaining" them together but if I have more than one plugged it at > >once I get some sort of nasty feedback. Is there some sort of device I > >need in between them so they can't "see" each other? > > > >Thanks for your help, > > The problem is not so much one of "feedback" as it is > for "loading". Each source, while not supplying energy > to the signal stream presents a potential for being a load. > this means that while one source is being used, it sees multiple > loads that may affect both signal intensity and frequency > response. MUCH better that you use an isolation (mixing) amplifier > if you want to use multiple sources simultaneously or a simple > two-pole, three-position switch (like miniature 4-pole, on-on-on > switch) for selecting each source one at a time. > > However, you won't damage anything with the daisy chaining > experiment. Give it a try. It might prove satisfactory to your > needs . . . it's just not the best we know how to do. > > Bob . . . It might be worthwhile to ask what he means by 'daisychaining'. The most common meaning in my world is plugging one device into the next, then that device into the next, etc. If he's doing that, there might easily be 'feedback' issues depending on how each device handles 'ins' & 'outs'. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 24, 2006
From: "Scott Winn" <sbwinn(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Headphone Out connection to Aircraft Mic input
List, I have an audio 'alert audio' output that is a headphone out with a 3.5mmaudio jack. My intercom doesn't have an audio input, but I do have passenger 3 and passenger 4 mic inputs available since my aircraft is only 2 place. What kind of a circuit would be needed to connect a headphone out to a microphone input on an aviation intercom? I know there is power on the audio line, can it be coupled with an audio transformer to protect the headphone circuit from the DC power? Would additional components be necessary? Has anyone made such a circuit before? I want both the pilot and the co-pilot to hear the alerts, so a Mic input seems like it would work well if it can be adapted. --Scott ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 25, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Oops!
> >Voice Recorder... > >Landing Checklist Complete? Check. Ohhhhh, myyyyy. > > >They obviously need one of those squat switches I have on my Velocity >which warns a person when you get slow, and the gear isn't down and >locked. I think I'll put that in their suggestion box....I could even >fax them a wiring diagram! Hmmmm . . . it's easy for us to arm-chair an analysis of these guys plight as they turned final. As one wise sage once noted, "It't ain't over until the fat lady sings." In this case, it wasn't over until everyone is setting around the wreckage in their arm-chairs offering second-guesses, third-guesses and wild-ass-guesses to support their no doubt learned opinions. If these guys had an fire in flight, it's problematic as to how many and which systems were functional. I'd be surprised if an airplane like that wasn't fitted with numerous systems intended to reduce probability of gear up landings. But just as my good friend discovered over the New Mexico mountains a few years back . . . all the equipment, planning and training in the world cannot account for our frailties as humans when you've already had the @!#$@# scared out of you by a series of events that many would not have survived . . . and that itch at your back is the tip of the Grim Reaper's scythe. We do what we can to reduce life's risks but they'll never be zero. At least these guys walked away from it and will be able to share what they've learned with others. Too many of life's most valuable lessons die with the students. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com>
Subject: Oops!
Date: Dec 25, 2006
I get to fly with a friend in his Cessna 182 on amphibious floats quite often. He keeps it in a hangar at an airport, so most of the time we takeoff and land on a runway. One of the serious concerns with flying an amphibious airplane is landing gear-down on the water, or less serious, gear up on a runway. His airplane has a voice gear warning system that comes on when you reduce airspeed to a certain point where the warning will say "Gear is DOWN for a runway landing" or "Gear is UP for a water landing". My friend has developed the habit of punching off the warning the minute it starts. We came VERY close to landing gear-up on a runway a week or so ago. He was concentrating on the landing and automatically punched off the warning the instant it started, out of habit and without thinking about what it was telling him. Fortunately he had also developed the habit of looking for four green lights by the gear handle just before touch-down and caught it in time. Me, I was concentrating on his landing and might have missed it right up until the sound of aluminum scraping on asphalt. It also is possible to READ a checklist instead of USING a checklist. Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, December 25, 2006 9:29 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Oops! > >Voice Recorder... > >Landing Checklist Complete? Check. Ohhhhh, myyyyy. > > >They obviously need one of those squat switches I have on my Velocity >which warns a person when you get slow, and the gear isn't down and >locked. I think I'll put that in their suggestion box....I could even >fax them a wiring diagram! Hmmmm . . . it's easy for us to arm-chair an analysis of these guys plight as they turned final. As one wise sage once noted, "It't ain't over until the fat lady sings." In this case, it wasn't over until everyone is setting around the wreckage in their arm-chairs offering second-guesses, third-guesses and wild-ass-guesses to support their no doubt learned opinions. If these guys had an fire in flight, it's problematic as to how many and which systems were functional. I'd be surprised if an airplane like that wasn't fitted with numerous systems intended to reduce probability of gear up landings. But just as my good friend discovered over the New Mexico mountains a few years back . . . all the equipment, planning and training in the world cannot account for our frailties as humans when you've already had the @!#$@# scared out of you by a series of events that many would not have survived . . . and that itch at your back is the tip of the Grim Reaper's scythe. We do what we can to reduce life's risks but they'll never be zero. At least these guys walked away from it and will be able to share what they've learned with others. Too many of life's most valuable lessons die with the students. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 25, 2006
From: jerb <ulflyer(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Some experiments fail
By far I am not an antenna expert but what I've seen from the pictures there are several major issues. The length of the antenna element appears to be far shorter than it should be for a 118-136 MHz spectrum. The next thing I noticed is you go from coax to long simple single connector wires to connect to the element and the ground plane. You don't have much of a ground plane that I can see. Last, looks like you have the antenna element and the pitot in very close proximity to each other, if not at the proper spacing that has to impact your SWR, added together even more so. I use nothing more than a simple SS whip from Radio Shack bent into L shape and sized to produce a good SWR across normal frequency spectrum used in our area. I get out well and receive well. Bob didn't comment on these items that I noticed so either he's biting his fingers or what I noticed isn't a factor. jerb At 05:28 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote: > > >Some ideas look good, until you try to implement them. Like using >the pitot tube for an antennae. It's worth a shot, right? There's >even some documentation of the technique at >http://contrails.free.fr/instruments_ant_sonex.php > >Pictures of my attempt are at >http://ernest.isa-geek.org/Delta/Pictures/PitotAntennae1.jpg >and >http://ernest.isa-geek.org/Delta/Pictures/PitotAntennae2.jpg > >I was able to borrow a "MFJ HF/VHF SWR Analyzer, Model MFJ-259B", do >a sweep from 110 to 140 MHz. A few readings are: > >MHz SWR R X >110 15.4 20 81 >115 20.2 2 21 >120 14.9 3 1 >125 10.8 14 47 >130 8.6 403 0 (lowest SWR) >135 14.4 9 72 >140 18.6 3 25 > > >I didn't think I could get much below an SWR of 2.5 or so, and was >willing to accept the resulting poor performance; but, 8.6 is >really high. But then I put the rubber ducky antennae from my >handheld scanner on the instrument. Everything in the aviation band >was ">25", ie out of the instruments range. It dropped into range >at 130MHz and to 1.6 at 149.5. > >Considering that the handheld scanner seems to work, how viable >would an SWR of 10 to 20 work over here on the crowded eastern >seaboard for mostly day VFR operations? > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "J&C Piavis" <piavis(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: S704 Relay Wire Sizing
Date: Dec 25, 2006
Thanks Ken, That's what I had figured but can't find any concrete info in the archives. I was hoping to get a reading from Bob on this one. I've noticed a lot of questions on the S704 in the archives but nothing indicating wire sizing as used with the SD-8. Jim Hi Jim Yes I agree with you. Since the coil circuit has a 5 amp CB in it I think you could go all the way down to 22awg if you wanted. I also think that 12awg is appropriate for the 20 amp alternator but overkill for an 8 amp unit. Ken PIAVIS wrote: > In sizing wires per the Z-13 diagram on the S704 relay for the SD-8, > most of the wires supporting the SD-8 are 12AWG. For the jumper from > the + side of the contactor on the relay, to the COM tab, can I use > something as low as an 18 or 20 AWG wire for this, Im not sure of the > current flow through this. Based on other posts on the subject, > theres only about .1A on the line from the contactor ground tab > through to the breaker and switch, so I should be able to go to a much > smaller wire here. > > Thanks, > > Jim > > -7 > > Redmond, WA > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: Pitot/antenna
Date: Dec 26, 2006
Bob N has obviously taken great pains to discuss the meritsa of combining the two........ The thing that bothers me is that a 'hoizontal' antenna loses 20dB to a vertical one and 26 inches does not give great scope to adapt both. the one exception would be if the pitot could be mostly vertical base isolated in cloth skin. Cheers, Ferg Kyle Europa A064 914 Classic ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 26, 2006
From: "Lee Logan" <leeloganster(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/25/06
Those pictures of the B-1 gear up landing went around the "military circuit" several months ago. My understanding is that the crew was fully aware the gear were up and spent a long time trying to get it down. When all emergency modes failed, they made an on-purpose gear up landing with emergency crews standing by. The military stopped foaming the runway for landings such as this quite a few years ago: Just makes the airplane slide farther and it's better to have the firefighting foam still in the truck to fight any fire that breaks out after landing than on the runway way behind you. The captions I saw said the aircraft was not seriously damaged. Not to say military crews never make mistakes, they do of course (lots of them, but then they have a lot to do), but this is the kind of stuff where they really earn their money. Anyone can fly the airplane when everything is working right. Regards, Lee... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 26, 2006
From: Dennis Haverlah <clouduster(at)austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Over Voltage
George, I have the same regulator (VR 749) controlling a 100 amp Mazda alternator. I'm running the engine on the ground while I finish the A/C but I've experienced the same thing. High voltage at the battery. Measured voltage is approximately 15.5 volts when running. I'm using an Odyssey PC 680. Before I installed the Odyssey I was using a large 12 volt truck battery to start the engine and test the charging system. Using the large battery and temporary wiring I did not have any over voltage problems. As soon as I installed the PC 680 and flight ready wiring the voltage at the battery went too high. Dennis H. Sally Kilishek wrote: > >I'm using a generic Ford regulator (Wells VR749) and a >B&C OVM-14 overvoltage module wired as per Z-22 in my >RV8. > >It worked fine for a short time, but after about 4 >hours of flying, the overvoltage indicator light >started flickering. Bus voltage is rising above 15 >volts (one time as high as 16 volts), then dropping >back below 15 volts and immediately rising again. > >It looks to me like the regulator isn't regulating and >that the OV module is cutting off the field excitation >until voltage drops below 15. > >I've replaced the regulator twice, but the problem >continues. > >Is there somewhere else I should be looking? > >George >N57GK > >__________________________________________________ > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Erickson" <john.erickson(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/25/06
Date: Dec 26, 2006
Not exactly. To read the accident report yourself, go to http://usaf.aib.law.af.mil/B-1_8May06.pdf and enjoy... _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lee Logan Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 7:54 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/25/06 Those pictures of the B-1 gear up landing went around the "military circuit" several months ago. My understanding is that the crew was fully aware the gear were up and spent a long time trying to get it down. When all emergency modes failed, they made an on-purpose gear up landing with emergency crews standing by. The military stopped foaming the runway for landings such as this quite a few years ago: Just makes the airplane slide farther and it's better to have the firefighting foam still in the truck to fight any fire that breaks out after landing than on the runway way behind you. The captions I saw said the aircraft was not seriously damaged. Not to say military crews never make mistakes, they do of course (lots of them, but then they have a lot to do), but this is the kind of stuff where they really earn their money. Anyone can fly the airplane when everything is working right. Regards, Lee... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 26, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Some experiments fail
> >By far I am not an antenna expert but what I've seen from the pictures >there are several major issues. >The length of the antenna element appears to be far shorter than it should >be for a 118-136 MHz spectrum. >The next thing I noticed is you go from coax to long simple single >connector wires to connect to the element and the ground plane. >You don't have much of a ground plane that I can see. >Last, looks like you have the antenna element and the pitot in very close >proximity to each other, if not at the proper spacing that has to impact >your SWR, added together even more so. >I use nothing more than a simple SS whip from Radio Shack bent into L >shape and sized to produce a good SWR across normal frequency spectrum >used in our area. I get out well and receive well. >Bob didn't comment on these items that I noticed so either he's biting his >fingers or what I noticed isn't a factor. Didn't see the pictures until now Jerb but you're observations are spot on. Ernest. Your interest and willingness to explore antenna options are commendable. The experiments are worthwhile learning tools. But whether you're wanting to explore a new antenna configuration or learn to make biscuits, the shortest path to success is to study what has preceded your efforts. Do some Google searches on antennas. There are thousands of articles. Get copies of ANY editions of amateur radio antenna handbooks. Those published by ARRL are noteworthy. Used book stores on the 'net can provide a wealth of low cost, detailed data on how on might approach the task of launching intelligence into the ether borne on a stream of electromagnetic radiation. Your pictures and words suggest that you've acquired some useful facts about antennas but have yet to grasp the simple-ideas that support those facts. Get some books and study up on the relationship between operating frequency and physical sizes of antennas. You'll need to have a rudimentary grasp of transmission line theory and impedance at radio frequencies. There's a chapter on antennas in the 'Connection that would provide a beginning but what you're attempting to accomplish requires a study into much more detail. If you find something published for which you'd like more explanation post a question about it here on the List. There are plenty of folks here who would be willing to participate in some shared learning and teaching experiences. Now, if it's the 'short' answer you're looking for, I can tell you that the current crop of pitot tubes offer little prospect for becoming a useful antenna on an aircraft. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't study and discuss why - both for your benefit and that of perhaps 1300 other folks who watch this list. A quick note on other comments you offered: >>I didn't think I could get much below an SWR of 2.5 or so, and was >>willing to accept the resulting poor performance; but, 8.6 is really >>high. But then I put the rubber ducky antennae from my handheld scanner >>on the instrument. Everything in the aviation band was ">25", ie out of >>the instruments range. It dropped into range at 130MHz and to 1.6 at 149.5. >> >>Considering that the handheld scanner seems to work, how viable would an >>SWR of 10 to 20 work over here on the crowded eastern seaboard for mostly >>day VFR operations? Please understand that SWR has only a very loose connection with antenna performance. SWR is a measure of the antenna system's ability to accept power from the transmitter (or convey it to a receiver). It says nothing about the antenna's ability to efficiently radiate or intercept a signal. A 50 ohm resistor has an SWR of 1:1 over the entire range of interest but zero ability to function as an antenna. The MFJ-259 is of great value for improving power transfer by helping you optimize a "match". But 1.5:1 SWR measured on a wet-string does not insure that the wet-string will produce satisfactory performance as an antenna. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 26, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: RE: Oops
>Not exactly. To read the accident report yourself, go to ><http://usaf.aib.law.af.mil/B-1_8May06.pdf>http://usaf.aib.law.af.mil/B-1_8May06.pdf >and enjoy... > > Sit back in your chairs laddies and take another sip, the fat lady is still singing! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 26, 2006
Subject: Oops too!
From: <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US>
I can understand reasons for landing with gear up, becauseof forgetting to check...................... But forgetting to check and landing with 1 wing???? http://www.whoisthemonkey.com/videos/31f15-flying-with-1-wing Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "S. Ramirez" <simon(at)synchronousdesign.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/25/06
Date: Dec 26, 2006
John, So what happens to guys (and gals) that have many years of service experience combined with somewhat high ranking positions (Major, Lt. Col, Col) that make such a drastic mistake? It doesn't reflect well on their record, so my guess is that they will get RIFed out of the service, unless they have superior political connections. BTW, thanks for setting us straight on what really happened by using an official document. This argument could have raged on forever. Simon Ramirez, Aerocanard Builder LEZ N-44LZ Oviedo, FL 32765 USA Copyright C 2006 _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Erickson Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 10:38 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/25/06 Not exactly. To read the accident report yourself, go to http://usaf.aib.law.af.mil/B-1_8May06.pdf and enjoy... _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lee Logan Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 7:54 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/25/06 Those pictures of the B-1 gear up landing went around the "military circuit" several months ago. My understanding is that the crew was fully aware the gear were up and spent a long time trying to get it down. When all emergency modes failed, they made an on-purpose gear up landing with emergency crews standing by. The military stopped foaming the runway for landings such as this quite a few years ago: Just makes the airplane slide farther and it's better to have the firefighting foam still in the truck to fight any fire that breaks out after landing than on the runway way behind you. The captions I saw said the aircraft was not seriously damaged. Not to say military crews never make mistakes, they do of course (lots of them, but then they have a lot to do), but this is the kind of stuff where they really earn their money. Anyone can fly the airplane when everything is working right. Regards, Lee... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Grant Neilson" <grantneilson(at)telus.net>
Subject: OV protection in an internally regulated alternator
Date: Dec 26, 2006
When using the aeroelectric connection diagram for crowbar overvoltage protection for an internally regulated alternator, why is it necessary to have the continuous duty contactor in the system? Doesn't the OV module cause the alternator field circuit breaker to trip, effectively shutting down the alternator? It seems a redundancy to me to have both the alternator field circuit and the contactor. And when the circuit breaker trips and the contactor opens is there any risk of a voltage spike or arcing from the contactor? Thanks for any responses. I know there must be something I'm not getting.......... Grant Neilson RV9A, Firewall forward ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry L. Tompkins, P.E." <tompkinsl(at)integra.net>
Subject: Re: Back-Up Battery ground
Date: Dec 26, 2006
Why not just carry a small amount of ballast in the baggage compartment that you can trade for cargo when the need arises? I think it's the simplest solution and gives you the oppportunity to maximize cargo capacity. Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 26, 2006
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pitot/antenna
I wonder if we could prototype a helically-loaded "rubber duck" comm antenna and slip a polypropylene tube inside it with an L-bend at the end to act as a pitot; encase the whole thing in a streamlined radome. Interesting excercise. Bandwidth would inevitably suffer from the physical shortening versus a quarter wave. A lossy loading coil would give some feeble de-ice heat during Tx (just kidding.) A lot of work to shave a half knot of speed penalty, but a fun excercise nonetheless. If I weren't busy with other projects, it's just the kind of thing I'd try. Come to think of it, a full size transponder antenna would easily fit in a very modest blade pitot housing... -Bill B On 12/26/06, Fergus Kyle wrote: > > Bob N has obviously taken great pains to discuss the meritsa of combining > the two........ The thing that bothers me is that a 'hoizontal' antenna > loses 20dB to a vertical one and 26 inches does not give great scope to > adapt both. the one exception would be if the pitot could be mostly vertical > base isolated in cloth skin. > Cheers, > Ferg Kyle > Europa A064 914 Classic > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 26, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: OV protection in an internally regulated alternator
> > >When using the aeroelectric connection diagram for crowbar overvoltage >protection for an internally regulated alternator, why is it necessary to >have the continuous duty contactor in the system? Doesn't the OV module >cause the alternator field circuit breaker to trip, effectively shutting >down the alternator? It seems a redundancy to me to have both the alternator >field circuit and the contactor. And when the circuit breaker trips and the >contactor opens is there any risk of a voltage spike or arcing from the >contactor? >Thanks for any responses. I know there must be something I'm not >getting.......... See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/FAQ/Internal_Regulator/ Links to z-figures don't work but you can get the latest z-figures at: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf For a lengthy analysis of this an related/unrelated issues surrounding the use of stock automotive alternators in aircraft goto: http://www.matronics.com/searching/ws_script.cgi and search the AeroElectric List archives for "b-lead disconnect" Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Back-Up Battery ground
Date: Dec 26, 2006
Toolkit for instance. Survival supplies good too. Pax, Ed -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry L. Tompkins, P.E. Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 11:04 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Back-Up Battery ground Why not just carry a small amount of ballast in the baggage compartment that you can trade for cargo when the need arises? I think it's the simplest solution and gives you the oppportunity to maximize cargo capacity. Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 26, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Pitot/antenna
> >I wonder if we could prototype a helically-loaded "rubber duck" comm >antenna and slip a polypropylene tube inside it with an L-bend at the >end to act as a pitot; encase the whole thing in a streamlined radome. >Interesting excercise. Bandwidth would inevitably suffer from the >physical shortening versus a quarter wave. A lossy loading coil would >give some feeble de-ice heat during Tx (just kidding.) A lot of work >to shave a half knot of speed penalty, but a fun excercise >nonetheless. If I weren't busy with other projects, it's just the >kind of thing I'd try. > >Come to think of it, a full size transponder antenna would easily fit >in a very modest blade pitot housing... Cool! Hadn't considered that. Hmmm . . . maybe better yet, slice metal pitot tube into horizontal and vertical portions (right across the knee joint). Materials that traverse the joint wound have to be non-conductor -OR- fabricated in a way that provides loading components for the comm antenna. Now the horizontal portion becomes more of a minimally radiating top-hat and the vertical mast enjoys majority current flow in the right polarity. THAT could work! Except for the inevitable distortion in pattern that arises from a leading edge location on wing, it might function rather well. If I can get an IR&D activity spun up next year, I'll toss that out on the table to see if some RF-inquisitive guys might like to go mock that up in the lab. It would be an easily crafted experiment. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 26, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Back-Up Battery ground
>Why not just carry a small amount of ballast in the baggage compartment >that you can trade for cargo when the need arises? I think it's the >simplest solution and gives you the oppportunity to maximize cargo capacity. > >Larry An astute question sir. A Bonanza I used to rent had 6 plastic jugs in the baggage compartment with a tiedown net. If one anticipated lightly loaded flights, the jugs are filled with water to keep the balance in range. If one were going to use the baggage compartment both ways, then the net was used to wrap up jugs and hang them on the hangar wall before departure. If you needed the weight only one way, the jugs could be filled/emptied as needed for up to 50 pounds of aft ballast adjustment. If I wanted to have adjustable balance while minimizing weight, how about a plastic tank as far aft as possible with external filler/drain access. Fill or empty as needed. Obviously, changes could be accomplished only at temperatures above 32 degrees! Sailplanes use water as a dynamic ballasting medium, don't see why Haulplanes couldn't do it too. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: Re: Back-Up Battery ground
Date: Dec 26, 2006
Bob, Larry et all Please forget the reason why I may want to put the Avionics Back-Up battery in the tail, and please answer the electric questions: - Can I connect the (-) terminal of that battery to the tail's ground lug, which is isolated from the fuselage and is directly connected to the (-) terminal of the "Main" battery ? - Can I continue to use that same ground lug to connect the other grounds ( from the tail light, the strobe beacon, and the elevator trim motor) there? - Isn't there any possibility of "ground loop"? Carlos ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 7:59 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Back-Up Battery ground > > > >>Why not just carry a small amount of ballast in the baggage compartment >>that you can trade for cargo when the need arises? I think it's the >>simplest solution and gives you the oppportunity to maximize cargo >>capacity. >> >>Larry > > An astute question sir. A Bonanza I used to rent had 6 plastic jugs > in the baggage compartment with a tiedown net. If one anticipated > lightly loaded flights, the jugs are filled with water to keep > the balance in range. If one were going to use the baggage compartment > both ways, then the net was used to wrap up jugs and hang them on > the hangar wall before departure. If you needed the weight only > one way, the jugs could be filled/emptied as needed for up to 50 > pounds of aft ballast adjustment. > > If I wanted to have adjustable balance while minimizing weight, > how about a plastic tank as far aft as possible with external > filler/drain access. Fill or empty as needed. Obviously, changes > could be accomplished only at temperatures above 32 degrees! > > Sailplanes use water as a dynamic ballasting medium, don't > see why Haulplanes couldn't do it too. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 26, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Oops!
>Those pictures of the B-1 gear up landing went around the "military >circuit" several months ago. My understanding is that the crew was fully >aware the gear were up and spent a long time trying to get it down. When >all emergency modes failed, they made an on-purpose gear up landing with >emergency crews standing by. The military stopped foaming the runway for >landings such as this quite a few years ago: Just makes the airplane slide >farther and it's better to have the firefighting foam still in the truck >to fight any fire that breaks out after landing than on the runway way >behind you. Interesting. At Cessna, we didn't foam the runway, we wet the grass. There was a large field east of the Pawnee plant that was planted in grass. The one gear up landing I got to watch was during our O-2A development days when the test pilot had to recover an aircraft that would not extend the gear. They sprayed the grass down. I don't think they went back to refill the trucks . . . nobody expected any fire. The C337 had keel structure designed to tolerate such abuse. As I recall, the airplane was flying the next day with a couple of new belly skins and two new antennas. >The captions I saw said the aircraft was not seriously damaged. > >Not to say military crews never make mistakes, they do of course (lots of >them, but then they have a lot to do), but this is the kind of stuff where >they really earn their money. Anyone can fly the airplane when everything >is working right. Lee, thank you for helping out with "the rest of the story". Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EMAproducts(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 26, 2006
Subject: Re:OOOPS
Gentlemen, There are those who are going to and those who have, sorta like flying tail draggers and ground looping. The laws of averages they say will eventually catch up with everybody. I've been lucky in my 25,000+ hours, over a couple thousand in tail draggers, but it has been close a few times, ground loops and a couple times with the gear! Following and using a checklist properly will help eliminate the gear up problem, but mechanical things do happen. It is easy to after the fact comment with out all details. Accidents usually have three main causes. For this reason our AOA system has an optional gear warning, It does not depend upon just throttle being reduced, but on three things, manifold pressure, gear position, and AOA. Audio voice says Landing Gear, Landing Gear. On amphibian aircraft it is wired so that when above conditions are met one will always get the Landing Gear, Landing Gear Audio to verify down for landing on terra firma or splashing down on H2O. Two companies who sell amphibian floats and amphibian aircraft highly recommend the system. _www.riteangle.com_ (http://www.riteangle.com) Elbie Elbie Mendenhall President EM Aviation, LLC 13411 NE Prairie Rd Brush Prairie, WA 98606 360-260-0772 _http://www.riteangle.com_ (http://www.riteangle.com/) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 26, 2006
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pitot/antenna
No reason I see why we can't have the pitot shaped like an inverted-T rather than an L. That would allow more top (bottom) loading to be added, and the "hat" would not radiate, thus negating any directivity effects that would arise from the L-shape. The back of the T would be strictly antenna-related and not needed for Pitot, of course. I like it. -Bill B On 12/26/06, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > > >I wonder if we could prototype a helically-loaded "rubber duck" comm > >antenna and slip a polypropylene tube inside it with an L-bend at the > >end to act as a pitot; encase the whole thing in a streamlined radome. > >Interesting excercise. Bandwidth would inevitably suffer from the > >physical shortening versus a quarter wave. A lossy loading coil would > >give some feeble de-ice heat during Tx (just kidding.) A lot of work > >to shave a half knot of speed penalty, but a fun excercise > >nonetheless. If I weren't busy with other projects, it's just the > >kind of thing I'd try. > > > >Come to think of it, a full size transponder antenna would easily fit > >in a very modest blade pitot housing... > > Cool! Hadn't considered that. > > Hmmm . . . maybe better yet, slice metal pitot tube into > horizontal and vertical portions (right across > the knee joint). Materials that traverse the joint wound > have to be non-conductor -OR- fabricated in a way > that provides loading components for the comm antenna. > > Now the horizontal portion becomes more of a minimally > radiating top-hat and the vertical mast enjoys majority > current flow in the right polarity. > > THAT could work! Except for the inevitable distortion > in pattern that arises from a leading edge location > on wing, it might function rather well. > > If I can get an IR&D activity spun up next year, I'll toss > that out on the table to see if some RF-inquisitive guys > might like to go mock that up in the lab. It would be an > easily crafted experiment. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Glasgow" <willfly(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Avionics Switch
Date: Dec 26, 2006
Does anyone have any information on building a Avionics Switch System? I'm helping a friend with an All Electric Airplane with 20-Amp E-Bus and he wants a Avionics Switch. Could I somehow wire a Switch between two FH-10 Fuseholders? One for all the avionics and one for all the other Main Bus stuff. Any input would be appreciated. Steve Glasgow-Cappy N123SG RV-8 Cappy's Toy ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com>
Subject: Avionics Switch
Date: Dec 26, 2006
Steve, my only experience with an Avionics Master is with my electronics modules for my Lancair. They use a contactor to switch the avionics buss off the primary buss. And an associated fuseable link for the right amperage. Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Glasgow Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 8:05 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Switch --> Does anyone have any information on building a Avionics Switch System? I'm helping a friend with an All Electric Airplane with 20-Amp E-Bus and he wants a Avionics Switch. Could I somehow wire a Switch between two FH-10 Fuseholders? One for all the avionics and one for all the other Main Bus stuff. Any input would be appreciated. Steve Glasgow-Cappy N123SG RV-8 Cappy's Toy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 26, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Back-Up Battery ground
> > >Bob, Larry et all > >Please forget the reason why I may want to put the Avionics Back-Up >battery in the tail, and please answer the electric questions: > - Can I connect the (-) terminal of that battery to the tail's ground lug, >which is isolated from the fuselage and is directly connected to the (-) >terminal of the "Main" battery ? Can't imagine what you're describing here. Ground the battery to local structure. > - Can I continue to use that same ground lug to connect the other grounds >( from the tail light, the strobe beacon, and the elevator trim motor) >there? Ground these devices to local structure. You don't need a "tail ground" in a metal airplane for items located in the tail. > - Isn't there any possibility of "ground loop"? No. Do you plan a "mini battery contactor" for this "mini-battery"? Even thought it's a relatively small battery compared to the ship's battery, it is capable of significant fault currents and should be treated like any other battery with respect to positive disconnection via local contactor. It would be helpful if you could publish sketches of your proposed wiring. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 26, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Back-Up Battery ground
>Good Afternoon Bob, > >Just for a statistical data point, in the days of the DC-3, all airlines >used canvas bags with lead shot as ballast. They had canvas handles and >each weighed fifty pounds. > >A baggage a cart full of ballast bags was maintained at each station. The >bags would be thrown in the aft baggage compartment of the DC-3 so as to >maintain a reasonable CG. If any one station got a little low on bags or a >little heavy on bags, a message would be sent and bags would be moved from >the 'Heavy' stations to the 'Light' stations. > >If I Recall Correctly, for an empty airplane, we needed around five >hundred pounds of ballast in the aft compartment. I could be off by a >couple of hundred pounds on that though. > >Worked well for a stable airline. > >The idea of hauling ballast has a long history with sailing ships. They >would unload paying cargo in the New World and load up on rocks and stones >to get reasonable stability for the trip home. A major effort was made to >load up stones that may have some value when the ship reached a port that >had better paying cargo available. Puts a whole new twist on the term "dead heading" . . . nothing deader than a rock! Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 26, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Pitot/antenna
> >No reason I see why we can't have the pitot shaped like an inverted-T >rather than an L. That would allow more top (bottom) loading to be >added, and the "hat" would not radiate, thus negating any directivity >effects that would arise from the L-shape. The back of the T would be >strictly antenna-related and not needed for Pitot, of course. > >I like it. I've added it to my notebook of "cookies" to toss on the table should I find an opportunity to suggest it in the future. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 26, 2006
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Some experiments fail
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > Ernest. Your interest and willingness to explore antenna options > are commendable. The experiments are worthwhile learning tools. > But whether you're wanting to explore a new antenna configuration > or learn to make biscuits, the shortest path to success is to > study what has preceded your efforts. > > Do some Google searches on antennas. There are thousands of > articles. Get copies of ANY editions of amateur radio antenna > handbooks. Those published by ARRL are noteworthy. Used book stores > on the 'net can provide a wealth of low cost, detailed data on how on > might approach the task of launching intelligence into the ether borne > on a stream of electromagnetic radiation. Your pictures > and words suggest that you've acquired some useful facts about > antennas but have yet to grasp the simple-ideas that support those > facts. Thank you, Bob, but I've believe I've bitten off way more than I can chew. The problem with antennaes is what I've heard from both you and Jim Weir. To paraphrase: A wet noodle in a cast iron swimming pool will radiate, and it gets better from there. The implication is that just about anything will work, for some qualified definition of 'work'. This experiment was an exercise in placing a chunk of existing metal at it's appropriate spot somewhere is the spectra of wet noodle to 'dedicated ham special'. I don't have the resources, time or energy to remanufacture the tube, and once I get past the basics of antennae theory I started to get swimmy headed. The pitot tube has to remain unmodified so that it may serve its intended purpose for one very profound reason. I've done paid for it and it was EXPENSIVE 8*) I also think I know more about antennae than I originally set out learn...which is a good thing, but for the swimmy headiness. At this point, I know the radio will transmit well enough to be recieved in the kitchen from the garage (put that unit in your metric pipe and smoke it 8*), and I can only presume that it was received clearly since it brought the family out to ask what I wanted (another great measurment unit for the international community 8*). The next step will be to see how well it does at the airport during the taxi test. It shouldn't be very hard to pre-arrange for a few strategic radio checks. If it is sufficient, it will get qualified in the pattern. If it proves worthwhile, I'll extend the range until I know how effective it is. If it is really bad, I'll try something a little more conventional, though not as universally applicable. I could fish a welding rod down into the foam core of my air intake, for instance. All in all, I think this has been a worthwhile experiment for me, and I'm especially pleased that my little splash has stirred the neurons of a few that have many more to stir than I. Marc Beranger inspired me. I inspire someone else. They develop something that exceeds, even by the slightest of measures, what what done before. I LOVE this internets thing. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "rtitsworth" <rtitsworth(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Z14 contactor(s) circuit question
Date: Dec 26, 2006
Bob, etal, I noticed on the Z-14 schematic there is not a breaker, nor fuse, nor fuseable link, anywhere along the current path from the battery(s) to the battery contactor master switch(es) on the panel (and then to ground). A short (wire failed to ground) between the contactor and the switch would just keep the contactor closed (the same as the switch being on) and thus no risk of additional damage, fire, etc. (due to the resistance of the contactor coil). However, if the contactor itself failed internally and shorted the power terminal to the switch/coil terminal, it seems the 22AWG switch wire would fry. Perhaps the likelihood of that is so remote as to outweigh the complexity/ risk of an additional component in the circuit. However, breakers and fuses are pretty reliable and with Z14 there is Bus#2 and the cross tie, which could be used if the #1 master breaker/fuse failed and caused the #1 contactor to open (and/or vise versa). Thus, I am thinking of perhaps putting a fuse(s) in-line with the master switch(es). Thoughts? Rick ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Homemade Avionics/Electrical component bench tester
From: "macrafic" <macrafic(at)charter.net>
Date: Dec 26, 2006
Anybody have a lead on plans/instructions for a simple homemade avionics bench tester? One that would include a 12V battery, batter charger, and a box with a couple of switches and 3-4 different amp circuits protected by fuses? The idea would be to drive the various electonic components simply by hooking them into the correct circuit, based on its current draw; thinks like lights, flashers, servos, etc.. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=83707#83707 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2006
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Z14 contactor(s) circuit question
Hi Rick FWIW I believe I added a fuse link (about two inches of 26awg wire inside glass sphaghetti as per the B&C kit) anywhere that I reduced wiring size to 22awg from a heavier than 5 amp protected circuit. As you say, the risk of the specific failure that you describe has to be very low so I think a fuse link makes more sense than a fuse. They don't really take up space and I would expect no corrosion or maintanance issues within a couple of lifetimes... Ken rtitsworth wrote: > >Bob, etal, > >I noticed on the Z-14 schematic there is not a breaker, nor fuse, nor >fuseable link, anywhere along the current path from the battery(s) to the >battery contactor master switch(es) on the panel (and then to ground). > >A short (wire failed to ground) between the contactor and the switch would >just keep the contactor closed (the same as the switch being on) and thus no >risk of additional damage, fire, etc. (due to the resistance of the >contactor coil). > >However, if the contactor itself failed internally and shorted the power >terminal to the switch/coil terminal, it seems the 22AWG switch wire would >fry. > >Perhaps the likelihood of that is so remote as to outweigh the complexity/ >risk of an additional component in the circuit. However, breakers and fuses >are pretty reliable and with Z14 there is Bus#2 and the cross tie, which >could be used if the #1 master breaker/fuse failed and caused the #1 >contactor to open (and/or vise versa). > >Thus, I am thinking of perhaps putting a fuse(s) in-line with the master >switch(es). Thoughts? > >Rick > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Avionics Switch
From: "Roger Bentlage" <bentlage(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: Dec 27, 2006
Steve, I have completed the electrical/avionics portion of a RV-7. It's a dual batt, dual alt, dual electronic ignition, all glass panel, etc. I opted for avionics master (2) switches although there seem to be arguments against their necessity. I will attempt to attach a .DXF file of the electrical schematic and pic of the panel. If that doesn't work I'll be glad to send them seperately if you're interested. Roger RV-7 finishing (at last) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=83764#83764 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/instrument_panel_2_1_186.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2006
From: Ron Patterson <scc_ron(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: "Broken and Garbled"
I have had poor reception from towered airports with my XCOM and now that my radio is out for repair, poorly received transmissions with my ICOM handheld A5. I've even tried hooking up my aircraft Comant antenna to the ICOM but it didn't improve how others hear me (or don't). Could I need some filter or something? This seriously limits my entry into controlled airspace so any fix ideas are appreciated. Ron - RV-4 N8ZD(at)yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Z14 contactor(s) circuit question
> > >Bob, etal, > >I noticed on the Z-14 schematic there is not a breaker, nor fuse, nor >fuseable link, anywhere along the current path from the battery(s) to the >battery contactor master switch(es) on the panel (and then to ground). > >A short (wire failed to ground) between the contactor and the switch would >just keep the contactor closed (the same as the switch being on) and thus no >risk of additional damage, fire, etc. (due to the resistance of the >contactor coil). > >However, if the contactor itself failed internally and shorted the power >terminal to the switch/coil terminal, it seems the 22AWG switch wire would >fry. > >Perhaps the likelihood of that is so remote as to outweigh the complexity/ >risk of an additional component in the circuit. However, breakers and fuses >are pretty reliable and with Z14 there is Bus#2 and the cross tie, which >could be used if the #1 master breaker/fuse failed and caused the #1 >contactor to open (and/or vise versa). > >Thus, I am thinking of perhaps putting a fuse(s) in-line with the master >switch(es). Thoughts? Your hypothesized failure is somewhere on the same order of probability as being hit by a meteor while on short final. The published configurations have been evaluated MANY times for nearly a century but have remained unchanged. I can see no return on investment for adding this feature. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Homemade Avionics/Electrical component bench
tester > >Anybody have a lead on plans/instructions for a simple homemade avionics >bench tester? One that would include a 12V battery, batter charger, and a >box with a couple of switches and 3-4 different amp circuits protected by >fuses? The idea would be to drive the various electonic components simply >by hooking them into the correct circuit, based on its current draw; >thinks like lights, flashers, servos, etc.. Your words don't paint a lucid image of your request. "Bench testing" is generally the simplest combination of power supply, input-output simulation and interconnections to allow a technician to exercise and/or troubleshoot any given device's capabilities. This isn't so much a "tester" as a combination of tools chosen and assembled for a specific task. At the other extreme, one might consider bench top simulators where ALL the components of a proposed system may be operated together and exercised to explore and prove functionality of each system's features and inter-system integration issues. I'd suggest you begin by acquiring the rudimentary test tools. Multimeter and power supply. There are some excellent buys on the 'net. We have perhaps a dozen power supplies in our shop of all sizes but one of my favorites is similar to this one: http://tinyurl.com/ycj6wu Many accessories can be powered up with just a bench supply. This particular supply will allow you to adjust voltage and measure the appliance's current draw. Each appliance calls for its own "test fixture" . . . the connectors, wires, controls and input/output ports needed to exercise that particular appliance. Here . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Test_Fixtures.jpg is but a handful of hundreds of fixtures that I've crafted over the years to exercise various pieces of airplane hardware on the bench. This is why your request for A schematic for A test fixture didn't ring any bells as to a simple answer. Perhaps I mis-understood your question and you can elaborate further? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2006
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Homemade Avionics/Electrical component bench
tester Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > I'd suggest you begin by acquiring the rudimentary > test tools. Multimeter and power supply. This is for the true, die-hard, born'n'bread cheapskates, like myself. Harbor Freight has multimeters for $3 nearly all the time. That's cheap enough that I don't have to waste time wondering where I put my meter. I just sprinkle the shop with a liberal supply. A 12V power supply can be had for nothing by grabbing the next ATX computer you see someone throwing out. Scavenge the power supply. It will give you a steady 12V if you connect the GREEN wire to one of the BLACK wires. It won't turn on otherwise. It also has a range of other voltages, usually printed on the side of the power supply. I have one installed placed where my battery will go, allowing me to test things as they're installed. It's only good for a few amps, but the price is right. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "kesleyelectric" <kesleyelectric(at)chooseblue.coop>
Subject: Ocilloscopes
Date: Dec 28, 2006
Bob and all, I recall a short while ago Bob posted a reference to a very reasonable priced 'scope on the list. It has been 30+ years since I last used one, and I am wondering if it would be a worthwhile investment for crafting/troubleshooting an OBAM aircraft electrical system (rag and tube bushplane, no glass). I have the opportunity to purchase a used ocilloscope locally, and am wondering what applications I might be overlooking. Regards, Tom Barter Kesley, IA Avid Magnum ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 28, 2006
From: "Lee Logan" <leeloganster(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 28 Msgs - 12/26/06
Looks like I got that one wrong, if the "official" version of the B1 incident is accurate. I heard it differently, but the general sequence of events in incidents like that seems to have held up. In my experience, crews are sometimes complacent but most often (nearly always) there is some underlying distraction that causes a pilot or crew to forget to put the gear down. You get the fire out, the engine shut down, and the smoke out of the cockpit, but in your haste to save the airplane and yourself/crew by getting on the ground as fast as practicable, you forget the gear. I'm betting there is more to the story than the "executive summary" that we saw. I'd really like to know why the pilot turned over control to the co-pilot right at the last moment. Was it a "test" or something, something wrong with the pilot? Interesting situation. "External evidence" can be very misleading in aircraft accidents. I once managed to survive a near ground impact during a hard turn at a *very* low altitude when my "g" suit blew up (uncommanded, runaway air pressure). Anyone who's had that happen knows the pressure and extreme pain it causes. Had we hit the ground, no one would have ever known what I was struggling with at the time. The investigators would have necessarily concluded I was just hot dogging and killed myself and my back seater. I'm willing to bet 50 cents there is more to this story, even if it's nothing more than something interpersonal, disrespect, or a cockpit argument. Lee... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 28, 2006
From: Sally Kilishek <s_kilishek(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: What Are The Odds (Was Over Voltage)
Never to be deterred by experience, I installed yet another new VR749 regulator the other day. This was the fourth one. It worked fine for about 20 minutes, then showed the same behavior as the other three: oscillations between overvoltage of 15+ volts and apparent cut off. What are the odds that four consecutive regulators would be bad? Is there anything else in a plane wired per Z22 that could account for this behavior? Temperatures here are in the 40s and 50s. Could a negative temperature coefficient be causing the regulator set point to rise above 15 volts? George Dennis Haversham wrote: I have the same regulator (VR 749) controlling a 100 amp Mazda alternator. I'm running the engine on the ground while I finish the A/C but I've experienced the same thing. High voltage at the battery... Sally Kilishek wrote: > >I'm using a generic Ford regulator (Wells VR749) and a >B&C OVM-14 overvoltage module wired as per Z-22 in my >RV8. > >It worked fine for a short time, but after about 4 >hours of flying, the overvoltage indicator light >started flickering. Bus voltage is rising above 15 >volts (one time as high as 16 volts), then dropping >back below 15 volts and immediately rising again. > >It looks to me like the regulator isn't regulating and >that the OV module is cutting off the field excitation >until voltage drops below 15. > >I've replaced the regulator twice, but the problem >continues. > >Is there somewhere else I should be looking? > >George >N57GK __________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 28, 2006
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Ocilloscopes
saelig.com has the pds5022 for I think $329. currently. Seems to work as advertised although I can't get the usb driver to install on my windoze98 machine. I agree that it is excellant value for playing with electronic stuff but I doubt that most folks building airplanes would have much use for such a thing. Ken PS. Sorry if I've annoyed anyone by giving an opinion as well as answering the question. Well not really ;) kesleyelectric wrote: > Bob and all, > > I recall a short while ago Bob posted a reference to a very reasonable > priced 'scope on the list. It has been 30+ years since I last used > one, and I am wondering if it would be a worthwhile investment for > crafting/troubleshooting an OBAM aircraft electrical system (rag and > tube bushplane, no glass). I have the opportunity to purchase a used > ocilloscope locally, and am wondering what applications I might be > overlooking. > > Regards, > > Tom Barter > Kesley, IA > Avid Magnum > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: What Are The Odds (Was Over Voltage)
Date: Dec 28, 2006
From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com>
George, Are you measuring the voltage with a minimum of two different instruments? In short, are you sure it is the voltage and not the measuring device/indication? You may have been over this territory before but I didn't see it in the email history below. Perhaps common to all the failures was the same measuring instrument? Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sally Kilishek Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 12:39 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: What Are The Odds (Was Over Voltage) --> Never to be deterred by experience, I installed yet another new VR749 regulator the other day. This was the fourth one. It worked fine for about 20 minutes, then showed the same behavior as the other three: oscillations between overvoltage of 15+ volts and apparent cut off. What are the odds that four consecutive regulators would be bad? Is there anything else in a plane wired per Z22 that could account for this behavior? Temperatures here are in the 40s and 50s. Could a negative temperature coefficient be causing the regulator set point to rise above 15 volts? George Dennis Haversham wrote: I have the same regulator (VR 749) controlling a 100 amp Mazda alternator. I'm running the engine on the ground while I finish the A/C but I've experienced the same thing. High voltage at the battery... Sally Kilishek wrote: > >I'm using a generic Ford regulator (Wells VR749) and a >B&C OVM-14 overvoltage module wired as per Z-22 in my >RV8. > >It worked fine for a short time, but after about 4 >hours of flying, the overvoltage indicator light >started flickering. Bus voltage is rising above 15 >volts (one time as high as 16 volts), then dropping >back below 15 volts and immediately rising again. > >It looks to me like the regulator isn't regulating and >that the OV module is cutting off the field excitation >until voltage drops below 15. > >I've replaced the regulator twice, but the problem >continues. > >Is there somewhere else I should be looking? > >George >N57GK __________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 28, 2006
From: sarg314 <sarg314(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: What Are The Odds (Was Over Voltage)
Sally: In general the odds are pretty close to 0 unless all four came from the same production lot AND the whole lot was bad. Having spent 20 years in the electronics business I've seen that happen a few times. Of course we bought capacitors, circuit boards, IC's, memory, etc. in rather large quantities. Your regulators may have a lot number printed on them that you could compare to see if they're all the same. That said, it's probably more likely something in your circuit is killing the things rather than getting 4 duds in a row. -- Tom Sargent Sally Kilishek wrote: > >Never to be deterred by experience, I installed yet >another new VR749 regulator the other day. This was >the fourth one. It worked fine for about 20 minutes, >then showed the same behavior as the other three: >oscillations between overvoltage of 15+ volts and >apparent cut off. > >What are the odds that four consecutive regulators >would be bad? > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 28, 2006
From: sarg314 <sarg314(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Ocilloscopes
I agree with Ken. I'd like to have an O-scope, but nothing I've encountered yet seems to need more than a multi-meter of some sort. I bought a cheap Fluke meter for $70 or $80, which I recommend. If you want to measure standing wave ratio on one of the radios, you'll need and SWR meter. I actually borrowed one of those from somebody once. Isn't really worth buying one, though. -- Tom Sargent ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 29, 2006
From: Sally Kilishek <s_kilishek(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: What Are The Odds
Chuck: Good question. I'm an getting overvoltage light from the annunciator panel, which uses one sensor to pick up buss voltage, and getting a digital voltage readout from a separate sensor on the EMS. Both concur on the overvoltage. In terms of wiring, I think the following is true: We're getting 12 volts to the regulator and the connection from the regulator to the field terminal is sound (since the alternator is charging). The OVM-14 overvoltage device is working (alternator cuts off when voltage goes over 15 volts). I can't tell whether the regulator is not regulating or is regulating at >15 volts. George Chuck Jensen wrote: Are you measuring the voltage with a minimum of two different instruments? In short, are you sure it is the voltage and not the measuring device/indication? Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sally Kilishek Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 12:39 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: What Are The Odds (Was Over Voltage) --> Never to be deterred by experience, I installed yet another new VR749 regulator the other day. This was the fourth one. It worked fine for about 20 minutes, then showed the same behavior as the other three: oscillations between overvoltage of 15+ volts and apparent cut off. What are the odds that four consecutive regulators would be bad? Is there anything else in a plane wired per Z22 that could account for this behavior? Temperatures here are in the 40s and 50s. Could a negative temperature coefficient be causing the regulator set point to rise above 15 volts? George Dennis Haversham wrote: I have the same regulator (VR 749) controlling a 100 amp Mazda alternator. I'm running the engine on the ground while I finish the A/C but I've experienced the same thing. High voltage at the battery... Sally Kilishek wrote: > >I'm using a generic Ford regulator (Wells VR749) and a >B&C OVM-14 overvoltage module wired as per Z-22 in my >RV8. > >It worked fine for a short time, but after about 4 >hours of flying, the overvoltage indicator light >started flickering. Bus voltage is rising above 15 >volts (one time as high as 16 volts), then dropping >back below 15 volts and immediately rising again. > >It looks to me like the regulator isn't regulating and >that the OV module is cutting off the field excitation >until voltage drops below 15. > >I've replaced the regulator twice, but the problem >continues. > >Is there somewhere else I should be looking? > >George >N57G __________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 29, 2006
From: Phil Birkelbach <phil(at)petrasoft.net>
Subject: Re: Pitot/antenna
That aft-end of the T could be closed with some small radially drilled holes and used as the static port. Godspeed, Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas RV-7 N727WB http://www.myrv7.com Bill Boyd wrote: > > > No reason I see why we can't have the pitot shaped like an inverted-T > rather than an L. That would allow more top (bottom) loading to be > added, and the "hat" would not radiate, thus negating any directivity > effects that would arise from the L-shape. The back of the T would be > strictly antenna-related and not needed for Pitot, of course. > > I like it. > > -Bill B > > On 12/26/06, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > >> >I wonder if we could prototype a helically-loaded "rubber duck" comm >> >antenna and slip a polypropylene tube inside it with an L-bend at the >> >end to act as a pitot; encase the whole thing in a streamlined radome. >> >Interesting excercise. Bandwidth would inevitably suffer from the >> >physical shortening versus a quarter wave. A lossy loading coil would >> >give some feeble de-ice heat during Tx (just kidding.) A lot of work >> >to shave a half knot of speed penalty, but a fun excercise >> >nonetheless. If I weren't busy with other projects, it's just the >> >kind of thing I'd try. >> > >> >Come to think of it, a full size transponder antenna would easily fit >> >in a very modest blade pitot housing... >> >> Cool! Hadn't considered that. >> >> Hmmm . . . maybe better yet, slice metal pitot tube into >> horizontal and vertical portions (right across >> the knee joint). Materials that traverse the joint wound >> have to be non-conductor -OR- fabricated in a way >> that provides loading components for the comm antenna. >> >> Now the horizontal portion becomes more of a minimally >> radiating top-hat and the vertical mast enjoys majority >> current flow in the right polarity. >> >> THAT could work! Except for the inevitable distortion >> in pattern that arises from a leading edge location >> on wing, it might function rather well. >> >> If I can get an IR&D activity spun up next year, I'll toss >> that out on the table to see if some RF-inquisitive guys >> might like to go mock that up in the lab. It would be an >> easily crafted experiment. >> >> Bob . . . >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 29, 2006
From: Pat Salvati <pats4p(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Back-Up Battery ground
Touche' ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 29, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Pitot/antenna
> >That aft-end of the T could be closed with some small radially drilled >holes and used as the static port. That kind of rings a bell for something I've seen before although I'm sure the pitot-static tube was not also an antenna. Great thought! I'll add that to the mix. A pitot-static tube that is also a reasonably efficient antenna. I believe that's doable. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 29, 2006
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: What Are The Odds
> >Chuck: > >Good question. > >I'm an getting overvoltage light from the annunciator >panel, which uses one sensor to pick up buss voltage, >and getting a digital voltage readout from a separate >sensor on the EMS. Both concur on the overvoltage. > >In terms of wiring, I think the following is true: > >We're getting 12 volts to the regulator and the >connection from the regulator to the field terminal >is sound (since the alternator is charging). "Getting 12 volts" is not especially definitive. Do the specific votlage measurement cited below . . . >The OVM-14 overvoltage device is working (alternator >cuts off when voltage goes over 15 volts). How does it "cut off"? The OVM-14 is supposed to trip the field supply breaker. If the breaker does not trip, the OVM-14 is not a part of this trouble-shooting task . . . >I can't tell whether the regulator is not regulating >or is regulating at >15 volts. Easy. Use a voltmeter to measure between the A/S terminals and regulator case. THIS is the point where the regulator believes it is seeing bus voltage. You may find that it it sitting happily at 14.2 volts while voltage drops in wiring BETWEEN the A/S terminals and the BUS are cause for an artificially raising of regulation set-point. Take one of your regulators and install some short leads on it as illustrated below. Install right on the back of the alternator and see what the bus voltage does while the engine is running and you vary loads by turning things on and off. These experiments totally bypass all other ship's wiring. http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/Alternator_Test_1.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/Ford_Test_Reg.jpg I think you'll find that the alternator and regulator are fine . . . there's some bug in installation. Conduct the experiments cited above and report back the results. We can begin to divide the probabilities-list into manageable partitions. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Flying Now (Thanks to Bob)
Date: Dec 30, 2006
Bob & List, I've made my first few flights in this last week & am at last a very happy airplane builder. Despite the very simple VFR panel with Z-11 architecture, wiring the aircraft was a monumental task for a bone head like myself. I can say with great confidence that the aircraft project likely would not have been completed without the help of this list, most notably ofcourse Bob Nuckolls. I can say with absolute certainty that, had it been completed without him, the electrical system would not have been anywhere near the level that it is now. Z-11 is functionally a quantum leap over that recommended by the kit manufacturer. Lighter weight too, which is always good. Although my understanding of it all is still very basic, it is much greater than what would have been without Bob's help. I look forward to learning more & hopefully completing another project some day. Anyway, blah blah blah, THANKS A MILLION BOB! Grant Krueger _________________________________________________________________ Fixing up the home? Live Search can help ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2006
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pitot/antenna
Keep in mind, though, that with too much "top (bottom) hat" length, you'll be concocting a shape that might have some ugly flutter characteristics once excited. The vertical portion of such a structure will need lots of torsional stiffness to keep things tame under the wing. Bill B On 12/29/06, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > > >That aft-end of the T could be closed with some small radially drilled > >holes and used as the static port. > > That kind of rings a bell for something I've seen before > although I'm sure the pitot-static tube was not also an > antenna. Great thought! I'll add that to the mix. A pitot-static > tube that is also a reasonably efficient antenna. I believe > that's doable. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "C Smith" <pilot4profit(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Flying Now (Thanks to Bob)
Date: Dec 30, 2006
Forgive my ignorance here gentleman, but what is Z-11 architecture? Craig Smith Subject: AeroElectric-List: Flying Now (Thanks to Bob) Bob & List, Despite the very simple VFR panel with Z-11 architecture, wiring the aircraft was a monumental task for a bone head like myself. I can say with great confidence that the aircraft project likely would not have been completed without the help of this list, most notably ofcourse Bob Nuckolls. I can say with absolute certainty that, had it been completed without him, the electrical system would not have been anywhere near the level that it is now. Z-11 is functionally a quantum leap over that recommended by the kit manufacturer. Lighter weight too, which is always good. Although my understanding of it all is still very basic, it is much greater than what would have been without Bob's help. I look forward to learning more & hopefully completing another project some day. Anyway, blah blah blah, THANKS A MILLION BOB! Grant Krueger ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com>
Subject: Flying Now (Thanks to Bob)
Date: Dec 30, 2006
See the "Z diagrams" on this website... And buy the book with them included and lots more information. Alan http://www.aeroelectric.com/whatsnew.html -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of C Smith Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 10:46 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Flying Now (Thanks to Bob) --> Forgive my ignorance here gentleman, but what is Z-11 architecture? Craig Smith Subject: AeroElectric-List: Flying Now (Thanks to Bob) Bob & List, Despite the very simple VFR panel with Z-11 architecture, wiring the aircraft was a monumental task for a bone head like myself. I can say with great confidence that the aircraft project likely would not have been completed without the help of this list, most notably ofcourse Bob Nuckolls. I can say with absolute certainty that, had it been completed without him, the electrical system would not have been anywhere near the level that it is now. Z-11 is functionally a quantum leap over that recommended by the kit manufacturer. Lighter weight too, which is always good. Although my understanding of it all is still very basic, it is much greater than what would have been without Bob's help. I look forward to learning more & hopefully completing another project some day. Anyway, blah blah blah, THANKS A MILLION BOB! Grant Krueger ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "C Smith" <pilot4profit(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Quest for the One-Word Answers
Date: Dec 30, 2006
Carlos, for a man from another country and having English as a second language, I must compliment you on both your content and intent. You have a fine way with words, and demonstrate an even better grasp of humanity. Craig Smith _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Trigo Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 2:07 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Quest for the One-Word Answers Bob Due to your unfriendly post, and not wanting to feed an useless discussion, perhaps I should not answer, but since I believe, on one side, that you didn't noticed my first post, and on the other side, that you must cope with criticism, recognize your errors and correct your action accordingly, here it goes. First of all, I shall say that I recognize your huge knowledge in aeroelectric matters, so I'm not like your "friends" George and Paul, who called you ignorant and even insulted you further (although sometimes you seem to prefer loosing time to write endless posts responding to those kind of guys). Maybe you can remember a tall, "heavy", moustache guy from Portugal who attended a seminar you held in Highland, IL at the WICKS Aircraft store, in March 2005. No doubt I must be at your seminars' Book of Records as being the guy who traveled from the farthest place (more than 5.000 miles) just to attend your seminar, and most probably the only one who came from another continent of this Planet!! ... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "C Smith" <pilot4profit(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Quest for the One-Word Answers
Date: Dec 30, 2006
Oh, just forgot to mention that a very famous certified aircraft manufacturer places their avionics back-up battery, along with roughly half of the avionics equipment in the tail for weight and balance reasons. That aircraft is the Cessna 182 with the G-1000. Craig Smith ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: Re: Quest for the One-Word Answers
Date: Dec 30, 2006
Craig Thanks very much for your compliment, and for the information about the C182. I knew I had not reinvented the wheel. Carlos ----- Original Message ----- From: C Smith To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 9:11 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Quest for the One-Word Answers Carlos, for a man from another country and having English as a second language, I must compliment you on both your content and intent. You have a fine way with words, and demonstrate an even better grasp of humanity. Craig Smith ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "bob noffs" <icubob(at)newnorth.net>
Subject:
Date: Dec 31, 2006
hi all, what switch has been satisfactory for a push to talk mounted in the end of the stick? any suggestions appreciated. thanks in advance, bob noffs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2006
From: Dave <dave(at)abrahamson.net>
Subject: A new year of loving the plane
The vitriol and barbed words that are so common on our list remind me that civil wars and fights between siblings are the meanest, because the parties are so basically similar. Their parsing of, and the reaction to small inflexions or subtle teases are often all out of proportion to the dig. In the AeroElectric List, we are a subset of a maligned clan. Don't we realize that airplanes are dangerous, small planes are really dangerous -- and a superfluous indulgence, and home-made small planes are a nearly suicidal irresponsible indulgence that endangers ourselves and everyone around us? And then you're going to put together the whole electrical system of this "toy" yourself?! As words fly by the two-way rifle range of cyber-conversation, remember that our countries' majorities would legislate and stamp us out of existence in a heartbeat if they could. Happy new year wishes to a very small, adventurous, smart, international, and maybe hyper-aware group of lovers of the homemade airplane. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2006
From: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Latest figure Z16 ?
Hi Bob and all, In the latest revision J of appendix Z, the Rotax figure Z16 Revision L (6-22-06) displays a new OV connection principle. In my opinion this newer version is an improvement, as the Rotax-Ducati regulator goes wild when the sense "C" wire is disconnected. Here are my questions : - Is there any chance to see this latest version appear in the .dwg drawings ? (I would like to use this newer version for some buddies' wiring diagram) - Is there any risk of over voltage if the pilot happens to open or close the master switch in flight ? Thanks in advance, Best wishes for the New Year, Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2006
From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: ectric-List:
bob noffs wrote: > hi all, > what switch has been satisfactory for a push to talk mounted in the > end of the stick? any suggestions appreciated. thanks in advance, bob > noffs Bob, Almost any normally open (NO) momentary push button that will mount in your stick will work fine. The RV-4 I'm flying has around 1,000 hrs on it & I'm pretty sure the PTT in the stick came from Radio Shack or a similar supplier. Just find one that fits & has an actuation pressure you are comfortable with. If you have a 'real' electronics supply house in your area, tell them you need a normally open, momentary, single pole push button switch that mounts in a x/y" diameter hole & that will fit within your stick's internal diameter. (x/y is the fractional diameter of your mounting hole.) If you go to RS, they have switches that have as small as 1/4" bushing diameters. The button is obviously small, but actuation pressure is low so you don't need a big button. If you fly a plane with light controls, you don't want switch pressure to be so high that you will be affecting pitch/roll when you transmit. :-) Charlie Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2006
From: Len Loudis <n713ml(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: WX500 intstall manual request
Folks, If a soul out there had a .PDF copy of WX500 intall manual you could email over to me it would sure complete my holiday season... and get you a great lunch at BJC next time you are through Denver! Thanks, Len __________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2006
From: Sally Kilishek <s_kilishek(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: What Are The Odds?
Bob: Thanks for your help. You're right. The field supply breaker isn't tripping, so the OVM-14 apparently isn't getting involved. I ran the two tests you suggested: (OAT was 46 degrees, if that means anything). The voltage between the A/S terminals and the regulator case varied between 14.7 and 14.9 volts while the buss voltage moved between 14.7 and 15.2 volts. Then I installed the test regulator on the back of the alternator per the picture you posted. The darn system ran perfectly! Bus voltage stayed very steady between 14.5 and 14.7 volts. I take this to mean that the regulator and alternator are fine. The fact that the regulator in the system seems to be trying to regulate at 14.8 volts or so seems wrong, but I've no hypothesis for that. The fact that the voltage the regulator sees is a few tenths of a volt higher than the actual bus voltage probably indicates a problem with the wiring between the regulator and the alternator breaker. This is about 6 feet of #18 wire from the regulator to the alternator switch and about 2 feet of #18 wire from the switch to the breaker (Faston connectors throughout). Do you have any suggestions? Hope you and yours have a happy New Year holiday, and that 2007 will bring peace, health, happiness and prosperity for you. George --------------------------------------- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What Are The Odds (snip) >I can't tell whether the regulator is not regulating >or is regulating at >15 volts. Easy. Use a voltmeter to measure between the A/S terminals and regulator case. THIS is the point where the regulator believes it is seeing bus voltage. You may find that it it sitting happily at 14.2 volts while voltage drops in wiring BETWEEN the A/S terminals and the BUS are cause for an artificially raising of regulation set-point. Take one of your regulators and install some short leads on it as illustrated below. Install right on the back of the alternator and see what the bus voltage does while the engine is running and you vary loads by turning things on and off. These experiments totally bypass all other ship's wiring. http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/Alternator_Test_1.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/Ford_Test_Reg.jpg I think you'll find that the alternator and regulator are fine . . . there's some bug in installation. Conduct the experiments cited above and report back the results. We can begin to divide the probabilities-list into manageable partitions. Bob . . __________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ron Cox" <flyboyron(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 12/28/06
Date: Dec 31, 2006
>From Bob: Yeah, this group really sucks sometimes! ... The degree of acceptability is often assigned by perceptions "greatness" ascribed to individuals who choose to answer. ... Carlos and Stan, I'm not trying to sell you a bill of goods. If you find the $time$ spent here on the List to be of poor investment, may I suggest you spend it elsewhere? ------------------------------ Can't agree with you more, Bob, as usual. As one who has learned more here and from your book than in any class I ever took (including whose bitching is worth listening to, and whose isn't), I marvel at your ability to put up with it all, particularly in view of your OWN return on $time$ invested. But I'm damned glad you do, and I gladly recommend both your excellent book, and participation here, to anyone who wants to learn about light airplane electrical systems. I DON'T recommend it as a source of answers to questions made during "strafing runs" for quick answers as some try to use it. I personally don't feel that's what it is all about. I suspect most others here will agree. My own return on "$time$" invested here has been fantastic. Thanks to you and the others here who use this place in the spirit in which it is intended to be used. Mutual Education. Happy New Year to all. Ron Cox Glasair Super II F/T (now nicely wired, and NOT just a clone of a "Spam Can" system, thanks to all the help here.) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ron Cox" <flyboyron(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 13 Msgs - 12/30/06
Date: Dec 31, 2006
Stan, and Carlos As usually happens, the list has indeed helped you to discovered your problem! You're here for the wrong reason. You've basically said that you're here for quick, free, simple answers to complicated questions. That's not what the list is here for, and it's been so stated for a long time. Just like misusing a piece of electric/electronic hardware, you aren't likely to get the result you want if you don't use it in the way it's designed to be used. You're asking the teacher (and other "list" participants) to do your homework for you. That's of no value to the other participants, and what you seem to need is a privvate tutor, not a seminar, which is the way a lot of us see participation in this list. So, contrary to your "griping", you've gotten exactly what you needed here, an identification of your problem. Congratulations! Now everyone should be happy. No one gets "banned" here for asking questions. The very few who've been asked to leave (after incredible tolerance by all participants for their obnoxiousness) because they seem to be here to cause trouble, rather than to participate in the learning the rest of us are indeed here for. They certainly weren't learning anything, and neither were the rest of us who had to wade through their venomous postings. If you find you've signed up for the wrong class, there's no deadline for realizing YOUR mistake, and dropping it. You can get all your money back at the registrar's office, down the hall... Ron > From: Speedy11(at)aol.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: The Quest for Any Answer > > Carlos, > As you can see from the response, the List doesn't react well to > criticism. > Both of us are likely to be banned from the list for daring to ask a > question > or for questioning the "teacher." This is the first "academic" situation > I've > encountered in which asking a question or questioning the teacher is > considered unacceptable. > > The "teacher" hasn't caught on to the idea that the "students" aren't > visiting his "classroom" in order to learn. They are visiting the > classroom in > order to get answers to questions regarding the implementation of concepts > and > ideas from the textbook. I have yet to find a textbook that adequately > explains > its subject. The text always requires explanation and clarification. One > would hope to get an answer (any answer) rather than a long diatribe > saying > nothing. ... > > Good Luck in the New Year, > Stan Sutterfield ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 601XL/Jab 3300 Build in progress Alternator questions
From: "lwhitlow" <ldwhitlow(at)comcast.net>
Date: Dec 31, 2006
Hi all I have followed the 'Lectric list for a while and I'm at the stage in my build where I must start considering the electrical system. If I'm not mistaken the Jab has a 20A alternator with internal regulation I don't have the book but I have read here about OV and runaway altenator protection. How have others handled the OV issue with this engine? Could someone point me to the where in the archives I might look? Thanks Larry Whitlow 601XL/Jab 3300 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=84741#84741 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2007
From: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Re: 601XL/Jab 3300 Build in progress Alternator questions
Larry, > > If I'm not mistaken the Jab has a 20A alternator with internal regulation > > I don't have the book but I have read here about OV and runaway altenator protection. > > I believe the 3300 has a permanent magnet alternator with an separate regulator. Not sure if you can rely on the total 20 A rated output. You may consider figure Z16 in the latest edition of the Aeroelectric connection. Best wishes for 2007, Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Fisher" <sonex76(at)velocity.net>
Subject: Re: 601XL/Jab 3300 Build in progress Alternator questions
Date: Dec 31, 2006
Larry, Check out the Z-20 figure for the Jab engine electrical system. Dick Fisher sonex76/Jab3300 ----- Original Message ----- From: "lwhitlow" <ldwhitlow(at)comcast.net> Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 9:13 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: 601XL/Jab 3300 Build in progress Alternator questions > > > Hi all > > I have followed the 'Lectric list for a while and I'm at the stage in my > build where I must start considering the electrical system. > > If I'm not mistaken the Jab has a 20A alternator with internal regulation > > I don't have the book but I have read here about OV and runaway altenator > protection. > > How have others handled the OV issue with this engine? Could someone point > me to the where in the archives I might look? > > Thanks > > Larry Whitlow > 601XL/Jab 3300 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=84741#84741 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 601XL/Jab 3300 Build in progress Alternator questions
From: "lwhitlow" <ldwhitlow(at)comcast.net>
Date: Dec 31, 2006
OK .. So I was wrong... Is the Jab Regulator firewall mounted??? I was on the Jab site and all it shows is the pinout of the connector. Thanks Larry Whitlow 601XL/Jab 3300 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=84771#84771 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 601XL/Jab 3300 Build in progress Alternator questions
From: "jetboy" <sanson.r(at)xtra.co.nz>
Date: Dec 31, 2006
Larry, I have the 2200 which is similar to the 3300 and I recall the max continuous you will get is 15A - they are only dynamo (PMAs) with a single phase series switching regulator. However they do seem to do better than the similar system on the 912 and as you require something like 20 A/hr for the starting battery there is no need for OV protection. Download the Jabiru manual it includes wiring diagrams the main requirement is to connect the batt directly across the regulator (use a short #20 fusible link if you want to be cautious) There will be switching noise on the AC and output wiring so its really simpler to leave that as short as possible and not run them into the cockpit. If you are mounting the battery remotely for W/B then you may require a capacitor at the regulator O/P such as 20,000 uF 25 V like the 912 requires. If you dont have the OEM regulator there are others that claim to do the job better in my case there have been no adverse issues it just keeps eveything as it should be. Ralph -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=84775#84775 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2007
From: sarg314 <sarg314(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Uniwrap tape
If one forgets to put a piece of heat shrink on a connector or terminal, is there any other sort of tape or other insulator that is good to use in its place? Particularly under the cowl, where it gets hot. I am particularly interested in the Uniwrap silicone tape. They claim it is weather resistant, has no adhesive (sticks to itself) and heat resistant, though I can't find just how heat resistant it is. It may have other uses too, such as restraining a wire from chafing, etc. Looks like interesting stuff. Tom S., RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dale Ensing" <densing(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re:Silicone Uniwrap tape
Date: Jan 01, 2007
Tom, It is a bit difficult to make a good wrap around an electrical connector with the silicone tape but it will tolerate the temperatures under the engine cowl. The high temp stability is 400 F with short term to 600 F. The tape will bond with itself and will necessate cuttiing it from the connector if you need to remove it later. I have successfully used it to wrap wire bundles such as EGT leads and other leads under the cowl. Dale Ensing > If one forgets to put a piece of heat shrink on a connector or terminal, > is there any other sort of tape or other insulator that is good to use in > its place? Particularly under the cowl, where it gets hot. > > I am particularly interested in the Uniwrap silicone tape. They claim it > is weather resistant, has no adhesive (sticks to itself) and heat > resistant, though I can't find just how heat resistant it is. It may > have other uses too, such as restraining a wire from chafing, etc. Looks > like interesting stuff. > > Tom S., RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2007
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: What Are The Odds?
> >Bob: > >Thanks for your help. > >You're right. The field supply breaker isn't >tripping, so the OVM-14 apparently isn't getting >involved. > >I ran the two tests you suggested: (OAT was 46 >degrees, if that means anything). Not much. I'm not aware of any regulator that makes an effort to temperature compensate set-point for battery temperature other than those provided with remote temperature sensors like the B&C product. >The voltage between the A/S terminals and the >regulator case varied between 14.7 and 14.9 volts >while the buss voltage moved between 14.7 and 15.2 >volts. Hmmm . . . back in the days when I was bolting the direct ancestors to those regulators to TC aircraft, their set=points were 14.2 +/- 0.2 volts. You're not the first person to report what appears to be a steadily climbing set-point value over the years. An alternator I repaired off my GMC van a few years back was set for 15.2. I can only speculate but it seems that the automotive side of the house has reasoned that higher set-point voltages, while they may sacrifice battery life to some degree, the increased voltage produces faster re-charge times for pushing energy back into a battery. >Then I installed the test regulator on the back of the >alternator per the picture you posted. The darn >system ran perfectly! Bus voltage stayed very steady >between 14.5 and 14.7 volts. > >I take this to mean that the regulator and alternator >are fine. Absolutely. This is but one technique I've used for decades in the quest to know what needs replacing and why before any hardware is removed from the airplane. >The fact that the regulator in the system seems to be >trying to regulate at 14.8 volts or so seems wrong, >but I've no hypothesis for that. > >The fact that the voltage the regulator sees is a few >tenths of a volt higher than the actual bus voltage >probably indicates a problem with the wiring between >the regulator and the alternator breaker. This is >about 6 feet of #18 wire from the regulator to the >alternator switch and about 2 feet of #18 wire from >the switch to the breaker (Faston connectors >throughout). > >Do you have any suggestions? Keep in mind that "wiring" includes ALL conductor pathways including ground. These simple regulators use case ground as the negative side sense lead for voltage regulation. Just for grins, try running your regulator in it's assigned location on the airplane but UNBOLTED from ground. Attach a 20AWG or so wire to the regulator case ground and return it to the battery (-) ground post on the firewall . . . do I presume correctly that you have installed a single point ground system not unlike those illustrated in Z-15? See what the dedicated regulator ground does for you first. If things get "better" (the bus now settles down to the same regulation set point as when the regulator was on the back of the alternator), Then let's talk about your ground system structure. If it doesn't get better, then bolt back down as originally installed and then make a direct, one-wire connection between A/S on the regulator and the bus. If this settles things down, there's a dynamic resistance variability issue or issues with the switch and/or breaker. What kind of breaker are you using? >Hope you and yours have a happy New Year holiday, and >that 2007 will bring peace, health, happiness and >prosperity for you. Thank you sir. Bob . . . >George > >--------------------------------------- > >From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What Are The Odds > > >(snip) > >I can't tell whether the regulator is not regulating > >or is regulating at >15 volts. > > Easy. Use a voltmeter to measure between the A/S >terminals > and regulator case. THIS is the point where the >regulator > believes it is seeing bus voltage. You may find >that it > it sitting happily at 14.2 volts while voltage > drops in wiring BETWEEN the A/S terminals and the >BUS > are cause for an artificially raising of regulation >set-point. > > Take one of your regulators and install some short >leads > on it as illustrated below. Install right on the >back of > the alternator and see what the bus voltage does >while > the engine is running and you vary loads by turning >things > on and off. These experiments totally bypass all >other > ship's wiring. > >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/Alternator_Test_1.jpg > >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/Ford_Test_Reg.jpg > > I think you'll find that the alternator and >regulator > are fine . . . there's some bug in installation. > > Conduct the experiments cited above and report back >the > results. We can begin to divide the >probabilities-list into > manageable partitions. > > Bob . . > >__________________________________________________ > > >-- >2:59 PM > > >-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2007
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Remembering the Thirteen Hundred
Dennis, Thank you for sharing this. YOU sir have described a success story that illustrates the reason for this list to exist. It's not a place for pseudo-intellectual titans to vie for supremacy. It has always been a place where the best simple-ideas are spread out on the table and sifted for combinations of useful invention wherein the builder UNDERSTANDS what he/she has accomplished. I will suggest that you have begun to repay a debt to the List . . . to become a teacher of what you've learned. It's an interesting instance of the value of a commodity growing - NOT because it hidden away and hoarded but freely circulated and widely used. Instead of being an investment in dollars that draws good interest because of some financial task accomplished, it's an investment of ideas that enriches the experiences of those who choose to understand and apply them. We can be proud of what we do here. I've mentioned it numerous times but it's worth remembering that over 1300 folks subscribe to this list. Only a small fraction of those individuals actively participate. However, if they did not find value in watching these conversations go by they would simply un-subscribe. Your posting when taken with their numbers is a validation of our mission. For too long I failed to accept the duty of preventing members of the WFWIB (World Federation of Whiners and Intellectual Blowhards) from diluting that mission. I apologize for that. We've all expensed too much $time$ with can't-we-all-just-get-along efforts to integrate those individuals into the mission. It won't happen again. It was suggested to me some years ago that I would do well to conduct myself at all times as if my mother were watching. As a corollary to that idea I'll suggest that our conduct here on the list should be mindful of the Thirteen Hundred who are watching and to stay focused on the mission to consistently improve upon the best we know how to do. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- >Hello to Bob and all the others, > >I'm getting close to first flight and just want to take a moment to thank >Bob and all the others on this group who have taught me so much about >aviation electronics. I embarked on this great adventure in large part >because of curiosity and a desire to learn new things. I have been >rewarded by this group beyond my hopes. I enjoy this list because it >teaches me the principles underlying the simple answers. > >I have had a lifetime curiosity about electronics but circumstances have >always kept me from pursuing it. Bob's Connection book is a treasure of >knowledge. There are too many examples to name, but his discussion in the >book about how to make an expanded scale voltmeter, instead of 0 - 14 >volts, taught me more about electronics than I had learned in a lifetime >of casual reading. I'll probably never make one, but it's no longer a >mystery. I find that very satisfying. > >Others on the list have generously and patiently taught me about LEDs and >how to include them in my instrument panel. Instead of a mysterious >source of light, I now have a basic understanding of how they work and how >they can be adapted to meet my needs. I even learned enough to teach a friend! > >This list is remarkable. So many people so generously helping others is >surly an example of the best that people can be. Sure, there's an >occasional thorn among the roses, but that's just life. Take the good, >ignore the bad. > >Thanks so much, >Dennis Johnson >Legacy #257, first flight in February? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Duckett" <perfeng(at)3rivers.net>
Subject: Hot Wire Grid for Carb Heat
Date: Jan 01, 2007
Hello All, Does anyone on the list know of a 12 VDC / < 20 amp powered "hot wire grid" heater that is roughly 2" - 3" dia.? My question comes from trying to find a suitable way to heat intake air other than byway of a carb heat box due to space limitations. The thought is to also maintain filtered air all the time by placing this "grid" inline between the filter and carb inlet. I know of several automotive/diesel applications that meet the size requirements but, their grids draw way beyond the capability of the average aircraft electrical system. Any thoughts or suggestions? Jim D. RV-7a ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2007
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: "Broken and Garbled"
>I have had poor reception from towered airports with my XCOM and now that >my radio is out for repair, poorly received transmissions with my ICOM >handheld A5. I've even tried hooking up my aircraft Comant antenna to the >ICOM but it didn't improve how others hear me (or don't). Could I need >some filter or something? This seriously limits my entry into controlled >airspace so any fix ideas are appreciated. >Ron - RV-4 >N8ZD(at)yahoo.com Ron, Sorry to take so long to get to this . . . the past 10 days has been wall-to-wall family gatherings so I've been somewhat pre-occupied. You need to conduct some tests that do not involve ATC controllers and other pilots-at-large. My experience has been that these folks are least able to articulate their perceptions of radio quality. Get another hand held and find an avionics technician or ham radio operator (the grayer the hair the better) and do some experiments on some frequency not in local usage. Your cohort in the experiments should be a significant distance from your airplane . . . 1/4 to 1/2 mile would be good. Craft a series of experiments where one thing at a time is swapped between two conditions. Your experimental cohort should be able to identify and articulate the differences between signals that are distorted due to overload and those that are intermittent. He should be able to identify the differences between audio that is clipped and audio that is generally polluted at all levels. He'll also be able to differentiate between the desired signal (your voice) and extraneous signals that are products of distorted voice or other noises. By process of elimination, you should be able to deduce which piece of hardware is the focus of the problem and ultimately deduce and fix its shortcomings. But short of acquiring and applying some expensive and cumbersome test equipment, access to an experienced and trained "test ear" is your fastest path to success. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2007
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: "Broken and Garbled" (Additional data)
>I have had poor reception from towered airports with my XCOM and now that >my radio is out for repair, poorly received transmissions with my ICOM >handheld A5. I've even tried hooking up my aircraft Comant antenna to the >ICOM but it didn't improve how others hear me (or don't). Could I need >some filter or something? This seriously limits my entry into controlled >airspace so any fix ideas are appreciated. >Ron - RV-4 >N8ZD(at)yahoo.com Ron, Sorry to take so long to get to this . . . the past 10 days has been wall-to-wall family gatherings so I've been somewhat pre-occupied. You need to conduct some tests that do not involve ATC controllers and other pilots-at-large. My experience has been that these folks are least able to articulate their perceptions of radio quality. Get another hand held and find an avionics technician or ham radio operator (the grayer the hair the better) and do some experiments on some frequency not in local usage. Your cohort in the experiments should be a significant distance from your airplane . . . 1/4 to 1/2 mile would be good. Craft a series of experiments where one thing at a time is swapped between two conditions. Your experimental cohort should be able to identify and articulate the differences between signals that are distorted due to overload and those that are intermittent. He should be able to identify the differences between audio that is clipped and audio that is generally polluted at all levels. He'll also be able to differentiate between the desired signal (your voice) and extraneous signals that are products of distorted voice or other noises. By process of elimination, you should be able to deduce which piece of hardware is the focus of the problem and ultimately deduce and fix its shortcomings. But short of acquiring and applying some expensive and cumbersome test equipment, access to an experienced and trained "test ear" is your fastest path to success. If I were trying to single-handedly resolve your issues in my own airplane, I would consider using a pair of low-cost GMRS walkie- talkies and modifying them to craft a remote receiver for testing the airplane's transmitters. You could attach headphones to one walkie-talkie. You might want to power the other one from larger external batteries. Tape the ptt button down on the one with fat batteries and rubber-band it to the front of the VHF hand held so that the antennas point opposite directions. Set the paired radios up to receive your ship's transmitter and repeat what is received back to you via the UHF GMRS hand-helds. It will take a little fiddling with volume controls but you should be able produce an accurate real-time sample of your transmitted signal as a remotely sensed "side tone" in the headphones. This would let you conduct the experiments in the airplane and make your own deductions as to cause-and-effect. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2007
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Hot Wire Grid for Carb Heat
>Hello All, >Does anyone on the list know of a 12 VDC / < 20 amp powered "hot wire >grid" heater that is roughly 2" - 3" dia.? >My question comes from trying to find a suitable way to heat intake air >other than byway of a carb heat box due to space limitations. The thought >is to also maintain filtered air all the time by placing this "grid" >inline between the filter and carb inlet. I know of several >automotive/diesel applications that meet the size requirements but, their >grids draw way beyond the capability of the average aircraft electrical system. >Any thoughts or suggestions? You're right about the power needed. When you consider the temperature rise you're attempting to place on a rather large mass of air, the energy requirements are significant and a 240 watt heater is not going to cut it. This is exactly why the heaters you've noted seem to be such "power hogs" . . . BTUs off the exhaust stacks are "free", while BTUs off the alternator/battery system are exceedingly expensive. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2007
Subject: Re: "Broken and Garbled" (Additional data)
From: <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US>
"I would consider using a pair of low-cost GMRS walkie- > talkies and modifying them to craft a remote receiver for > testing the airplane's transmitters." Hmmm Free nights and weekend cell/wired/phone/s? Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: Avionics cooler
Date: Jan 01, 2007
Has anyone ever installed (even if not, I'd also like to hear your opinion) an avionics cooler, like this one from AmerI-King, in an OBAM airplane? What's your opinion on this? - Is it only necessary when you operate in hot climates? - Which avionics do need this cooling? Xpdr, Comm radio, EFIS, GPS, Auto-Pilot controller? - Is it mounted vertically, horizontally or either? - Is it sufficient to use air from inside the cockpit as the source, or is it necessary to bring fresh air from the aircraft's exterior ? - Should it be ON everytime the avionics are ON, or should it have an independent On-Off switch? Is there any kind of thermostatic automatic switch ? Uff ! Enough questions for now, and TIA for the answers Carlos ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2007
From: sarg314 <sarg314(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Avionics cooler
Carlos, I have installed a "ice box" 3-port fan unit from Aircraft Spruce, I think. I will use it to cool the SL-30 (nav/com), the Garmin transponder, and the Dynon D10A. I am not flying yet. I was reluctantly convinced to do this after talking to engineers at Garmin and Dynon. They didn't say it was necessary, but they recommended it. The Dynon guy sounded like he'd been burned by heating problems. Having been in the electronics business, I know that cooling can significantly extend the life time of electronics. I do live in Arizona, so it gets hot here. I mounted the fan on the cabin side of the firewall recess (Ken at Van's suggested that spot, actually) right above the rudder pedal tubes. It will run whenever the main switch is on. If I am running off the essential bus, the fan is not powered. It draws in ambient cabin air. It's mounted with the 3 tubes pointing up. Just having moving ambient air blowing across the electronics is what's important. You don't have to go to great lengths to get cold air, though it would obviously help. -- Tom S., RV-6A. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2007
Subject: Avionics cooler
From: James H Nelson <rv9jim(at)juno.com>
Hi Carlos, I have a Garmin transponder that "recommends" additional cooling. I purchased a small "Shack" 12 volt squirrel cage fan and mounted it under my panel behind the transponder. I'm building an RV so I have a bit of room behind the Xpndr. I made some light weight brackets to hang it horizontal (bottom feed) from one of the vertical ribs that go from the fire wall to the panel. I then made up a custom fiberglass "tube" to get the air from the fan to the Xpndr. The tube also mates the square output from the fan to the round input at the Xpndr. As an aside, I installed a cooling fan on my first build because it was a bit crowded behind the panel. I again used a "shack" squirrel cage fan and directed the air between the transmitter and the Xpndr. Worked find for over three years + . Jim Nelson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2007
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: "Broken and Garbled" (Additional data)
> >"I would consider using a pair of low-cost GMRS walkie- > > talkies and modifying them to craft a remote receiver for > > testing the airplane's transmitters." > >Hmmm > >Free nights and weekend cell/wired/phone/s? > >Ron Parigoris Oops . . . that's but one of the hazards for assuming one's vernacular is universally understood! GMRS, FRS and a few other handy acronyms are used to describe a variety of license free or easy license use of the radio spectrum for personal communications. A whole line of radios have been developed to address this service not the least of which may be seen at: http://www.radioshack.com/search/index.jsp?kwCatId=&kw=gmrs&origkw=gmrs I've used these radios for a number of voice communications tasks (Just bought a set on sale at RS for $20 marked down from $59). I've also been able to use them as short haul radio telemetry links. It just occurred to me that one might also use a pair to cobble up a voice-link back to your airplane from a remotely located VHF Comm receiver as described in the earlier post. For the money, they're pretty good value and can be useful in a lot of ways that are not immediately obvious. Only caveat is to be aware that everyone from the construction site down the block to the neighbor's kids may have a radio that can easily receive and/or interfere with your own mission. I've not been greatly plagued with this shortcoming. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2007
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Hot Wire Grid for Carb Heat
Lots of RV's scavenge the heat in the lower half of the cowl for carb heat, without any heat muffs, just what comes off the cylinder fins... seems to work okay - zero extra space required. -Bill B On 1/1/07, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > >Hello All, > >Does anyone on the list know of a 12 VDC / < 20 amp powered "hot wire > >grid" heater that is roughly 2" - 3" dia.? > >My question comes from trying to find a suitable way to heat intake air > >other than byway of a carb heat box due to space limitations. The thought > >is to also maintain filtered air all the time by placing this "grid" > >inline between the filter and carb inlet. I know of several > >automotive/diesel applications that meet the size requirements but, their > >grids draw way beyond the capability of the average aircraft electrical system. > >Any thoughts or suggestions? > > You're right about the power needed. When you consider the > temperature rise you're attempting to place on a rather > large mass of air, the energy requirements are significant > and a 240 watt heater is not going to cut it. This is > exactly why the heaters you've noted seem to be such > "power hogs" . . . BTUs off the exhaust stacks are "free", > while BTUs off the alternator/battery system are exceedingly > expensive. > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------------------------- > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JTORTHO(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 01, 2007
Subject: Re: Hot Wire Grid for Carb Heat
Okay here goes a hijack attempt. I am concerned about the same problem in a rotax 912S. I found this source _http://www.ulparts.com/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=94_ (http://www.ulparts.com/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=94) I spoke with the dealer. They say the only complaint they have is about the fragility of the wires for the heating element. No complaints about effectiveness. ( I am "told" the 912 series of engines is not particularly prone to iced carbs anyway). My thought was exactly Bob's response. I would think the current draw is simply not enough to keep the carb body above freezing. what would be the expected heat requirement? ( There that part at least is a general question). Any other experience with this device? JimT ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2007
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Hot Wire Grid for Carb Heat
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > >> Hello All, >> Does anyone on the list know of a 12 VDC / < 20 amp powered "hot wire >> grid" heater that is roughly 2" - 3" dia.? >> My question comes from trying to find a suitable way to heat intake >> air other than byway of a carb heat box due to space limitations. >> The thought is to also maintain filtered air all the time by placing >> this "grid" inline between the filter and carb inlet. I know of >> several automotive/diesel applications that meet the size >> requirements but, their grids draw way beyond the capability of the >> average aircraft electrical system. >> Any thoughts or suggestions? > > You're right about the power needed. When you consider the > temperature rise you're attempting to place on a rather > large mass of air, the energy requirements are significant > and a 240 watt heater is not going to cut it. This is > exactly why the heaters you've noted seem to be such > "power hogs" . . . BTUs off the exhaust stacks are "free", > while BTUs off the alternator/battery system are exceedingly > expensive. > > Bob . . . > > Jim, an alternative for you might be heat pipes. I have a friend that has worked on some research projects where they were instrumental in transferring heat in a compact area. You fill a tube with a small amount of coolant, and seal both ends. He used copper and sealed with solder. Wrap the bottom around the muffler, and stick the top in the intake. The heat will boil the coolant (water will probably suffice in this case), which will rise up the tube. It will cool in the intake and run back down, to be boiled again. I won't work if you're flying inverted for extended periods, but a wide range of positive gradients will work effectively. Mark got at least some effectiveness if the cool end was even just high enough for the tip to be above the fluid level. He also found that a wide range of fluid levels would be effective. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Bell <wmlbell(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: A new year of loving the plane
Date: Jan 01, 2007
Dave, I couldn't have said it better myself and I appreciated the insight. Well stated!!!!! Larry Bell RV-7A Working on Wings "If God had wanted us to fly, he would given us Wings (or, at least, a way to build them)" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2007
From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Avionics cooler
Carlos Trigo wrote: > > > Has anyone ever installed (even if not, I'd also like to hear your > opinion) an avionics cooler, like this one from AmerI-King, in an OBAM > airplane? > What's your opinion on this? > - Is it only necessary when you operate in hot climates? > - Which avionics do need this cooling? Xpdr, Comm radio, EFIS, GPS, > Auto-Pilot controller? > - Is it mounted vertically, horizontally or either? > - Is it sufficient to use air from inside the cockpit as the source, > or is it necessary to bring fresh air from the aircraft's exterior ? > - Should it be ON everytime the avionics are ON, or should it have an > independent On-Off switch? Is there any kind of thermostatic automatic > switch ? > > Uff ! Enough questions for now, and TIA for the answers > Carlos Cabin air will avoid the risk of raining on your avionics. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dr. Andrew Elliott" <a.s.elliott(at)cox.net>
Subject: ARC transponder connector?
Date: Jan 01, 2007
I recently purchased a Cessna/ARC RT-459A transponder off eBay. It came with tray and connector, but the wires were cut off flush with the connector back, making it impossible to splice in. Anyone know what type connector the 359-459-859 series transponders use? And perhaps where the sockets might be available? Anyone perhaps done some kind of conversion to a DB-25 connector and wnat to tell how? Or should I just go to an avionics shop and ask them to make me up a half harness? Thanks, Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ N601GE (reserved) 601XL/TD/QB, Corvair, building... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2007
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: What Are The Odds?-regulator voltage
Actually most of the automobiles that I've played with for the last 20 or so years with solid state regulators do have at least some temperature compensation. Many manuals will give a table of voltage ranges to be expected depending on ambient air temperature and several of the Chryslers such as the 97 Neon have battery temp probes (I think it is a thermistor) in the battery enclosure. Mid 80's K cars had a sensor in the intake airstream for the engine that would vary the voltage somewhat. I've seen regulator circuits showing a couple of diodes as the sensing element in the regulator but don't recall the application. Many of these vehicles will output a so called "battery" temp to a diagnostic device. Anyway the voltage does typically vary by about 2/3 of a volt summer to winter here on my vehicles. Seems to me that even the internal regulated alternators often list a small variation depending on temperature. Ken Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > >> >> >> Bob: >> >> Thanks for your help. >> >> You're right. The field supply breaker isn't >> tripping, so the OVM-14 apparently isn't getting >> involved. >> >> I ran the two tests you suggested: (OAT was 46 >> degrees, if that means anything). > > > Not much. I'm not aware of any regulator that > makes an effort to temperature compensate set-point > for battery temperature other than those provided > with remote temperature sensors like the B&C product. snip ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ARC transponder connector?
From: "jetboy" <sanson.r(at)xtra.co.nz>
Date: Jan 01, 2007
Andy, I have a 359A and wired a cable direct from the circuit bd. to a DB25 connector for an SSD120 encoder. This has been verified by a TCAS aircraft as working correctly but not been installed / ramp tested yet. SSD120 RT359A 6 11 strobe 15, 1 gnd 8, 14 9 +ve 2 14 a1 3 13 a2 4 15 a4 5 19 b1 9 17 b2 10 16 b4 11 21 c1 13 18 c2 12 20 c4 If your encoder is an AK-350, do not connect pin 1 or pin 14, the others are as for SSD120 encoder connections. I got the pinouts from the net and cessna manuals Hope you can find a connector, they are rare. my FBO told me its OK to fit my own connector, but I think the avionics signoff will have the final say if it ever gets that far. Ralph -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=84944#84944 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ARC transponder connector?
From: "jetboy" <sanson.r(at)xtra.co.nz>
Date: Jan 01, 2007
to make it clear pins 15,1 on the ssd120 go to gnd pins 8,14 go to pin 9 on RT359A Also I missed the +12v aircraft pwr goes to RT359 22 for 12V theres a jumper connecting pins 23, 8 By the look of the page I printed, it came off the aeroelectric connection data Ralph -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=84945#84945 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 02, 2007
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: running SD-8 without regulator
The next time I have the RV cowl off, I'd like to go ahead and install the SD-8 dynamo, mostly to check for any interference issues with the nearby P-mag (older style case). It may be awhile longer before I am ready to tackle the larger task of mounting and wiring in all the regulator and relay stuff to support the SD-8. Is there any potential harm to operating this device with nothing at all attached to its terminals? I'd think not, but I'd rather make sure. -Bill B ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 02, 2007
Subject: Hot Wire Grid for Carb Heat
From: James H Nelson <rv9jim(at)juno.com>
Jim, I had a 912S for several years. The engine can get carb ice. There is a water heated jacket that attaches to the carburetor immediately down stream of the carb. It actually attaches to the carb. This jacket keeps the throttle plate from icing up. I think Rotax sell it. It was originally designed and available from England. That unit (2) will keep ice from forming period. You hook it up and forget it. Forget the on / of valve and temp indicator as it is all stuff not needed. It operates all the time the engine is running and producing hot water. I added it to my Rotax to avoid having another control to mess with and have ice build up and give me to much stress. Its worth the added cost. Jim Nelson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 02, 2007
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Back-Up Battery ground (The multi-word answer)
> > >Bob, Larry et all > >Please forget the reason why I may want to put the Avionics Back-Up >battery in the tail, and please answer the electric questions: > - Can I connect the (-) terminal of that battery to the tail's ground lug, >which is isolated from the fuselage and is directly connected to the (-) >terminal of the "Main" battery ? Can't imagine what you're describing here. Ground the battery to local structure. > - Can I continue to use that same ground lug to connect the other grounds >( from the tail light, the strobe beacon, and the elevator trim motor) >there? Ground these devices to local structure. You don't need a "tail ground" in a metal airplane for items located in the tail. > - Isn't there any possibility of "ground loop"? No. Do you plan a "mini battery contactor" for this "mini-battery"? Even thought it's a relatively small battery compared to the ship's battery, it is capable of significant fault currents and should be treated like any other battery with respect to positive disconnection via local contactor. It would be helpful if you could publish sketches of your proposed wiring. ------******------ Now that there's a bit more time to consider the questions, let's do a quick review of the techniques and rationale for installing "backup" batteries: When you use the phrase "backup" there is an implied notion that what ever power supply is normally expected to carry some load aboard the aircraft suffers a low order of confidence that it will always be there to do its job. For decades, we've willingly launched into the grey with a dependence upon alternators and batteries with less than stellar performance records. Certain essential radios were similarly plagued with propensities for failure. These demonstrable facts led us to adopt a variety of fall-back plans that included dual radios, hand-held radios in the flight bag, back-up batteries either installed or portable that could be pressed into service should our worst nightmare become a reality. It's also a certainty that public perceptions of aviation and systems that support comfortable flight are polluted with Hollywood's The present state of the art in electrical system architecture and quality of materials have demonstrated that modern alternators and batteries are a factor of 10 better than the devices we grew up with. Further, as members of the OBAM aviation community, we've come to understand that with some failure mode effects planning and the crafting of practical preventative maintenance programs, we can justify a high order of confidence in an aircraft electrical system. The classic idea of a "backup" power source has been with us since day-one. The engine drive generator or alternator is primary, the battery is a secondary energy source. If we consider nothing beyond the classic alternator/battery based electrical system, modern components and reasonable preventative maintenance offers great reliability. With the popularity of all-electric panels on the rise, many airplanes have an open pad on the engine were a vacuum pump came off . . . and for a very small $time$ and weight budget, we can enjoy a second source of engine driven power with essentially unlimited endurance. If for whatever reason, a builder finds it useful to add a second battery, a technique for adding a battery to any system are illustrated in Z-30 of http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf Major features are an always-hot bus where feeders from that bus are protected at 7A or less by fuses, 5A or less by breakers. The feeder between the battery and its bus is kept short. The fat-wire between the battery and the rest of the system is controlled by some form of disconnect . . . either a contactor where the battery is large and used to aid in cranking an engine or perhaps a plastic, 20A relay where the battery is small and not useful during engine cranking. Of course, a small battery COULD be charged-only via a low voltage drop diode (Schottky) in cases where the battery is never expected to deliver energy back to the charging system. Let's explore the original questions that launched this thread: There was some concern about "ground loops" . . . Ground loops are not created by the mis-application of a battery ground. Ground loops are the mis-application of grounds in TWO systems . . . the antagonist and victim systems. For the most part, ground loops are avoided by careful crafting of the wiring for potential victims . . . so while battery charge/discharge currents for the small stand-by battery under discussion are a potential source for miniscule noise currents carried on the battery's ground path, good grounding practice for potential victims makes the ground-loop question moot. So yes, the battery can share a ground to the airframe with all other non-victim devices that might also ground to that location. If I understand correctly, this battery is being considered as "useful ballast" and was not a high-priority item in a failure mode effects analysis. This begs the question as to why the ballast should become a battery as opposed to a chunk of dead-lead. If the builder's confidence level in the rest of the system is so low as to make addition of this battery attractive, then I'll suggest that some attention be paid to the rest of the system first. Perhaps the perception of poor reliability is not justified. If the goal is to simply make a piece of necessary ballast "useful" I would suggest caution. System complexity goes up which increases likelihood of generating maintenance issues with the extra battery's installation. I.e, you now have a piece of ballast with an ongoing maintenance requirement for the lifetime of the airplane. You also have battery disconnect and hot-bus structures co-located in the tail with the battery. Would it not be an improvement on the $time$ expensed in the ownership of this airplane if the ballast were "dead lead" as opposed to "useful"? This presumes, of course, that all the appropriate homework has been accomplished on the rest of the system that drives real usefulness for this "backup" battery to zero. In other words, if this battery has real value as a backup energy source, does this not speak poorly of any efforts to make the additional battery unnecessary in the first place? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2007
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Avionics cooler
> > >Has anyone ever installed (even if not, I'd also like to hear your >opinion) an avionics cooler, like this one from AmerI-King, in an OBAM >airplane? >What's your opinion on this? >- Is it only necessary when you operate in hot climates? Difficult to answer because so much is dependent upon" how many radios are in your stack? . . . how well does air circulate around them naturally? Does your cabin heat outlet blow on the radios in cool weather? The only solid answer to necessity for external cooling is to conduct worst case conditions cooling tests with thermocouples. This is impractical for the vast majority of OBAM aircraft projects so the alternative is to add blowers if there are any doubts as to the welfare of tightly packed stacks of radios or any other electronics. >- Which avionics do need this cooling? Xpdr, Comm radio, EFIS, GPS, >Auto-Pilot controller? In the early beginnings of the solid state radio days, there was a common misconception that since transistor radios ran cooler, that the need for forced air cooling automatically went away. Problem was that the parts associated with fabricating any radio had about the same temperature limitations whether used for vacuum tube or silicon radios. Further, temperature rise within a radio was a function of WATT-DENSITY or watts/cubic-in. While silicon radios dissipated fewer watts internally, they were also MUCH more compact. It was not unusual to find that some solid state radios had worse internal hot-spots than did their vacuum tube ancestors. Whether or not any particular radio is vulnerable to suffocation needs to come from the manufacturer. Instrument panel mounted equipment for small aircraft would be qualified under Category A1 for temperature/altitude. This is +55C ambient and 15,000 feet. Check the devices you're installing for their DO-160 qualification ratings. Lots of older transponders and DME transceivers were fitted with a dedicated blower duct attachment right on the back of the radio and external cooling required as part of the certified installation. Except for the degree of circulation, a radio behind the panel is breathing the same air as you and +55 is really toasty! It doesn't hurt to cool things but I'd be surprised if any modern hunk of electronics will need it in an OBAM light plane. >- Is it mounted vertically, horizontally or either? Cooling fans are not orientation sensitive . . . >- Is it sufficient to use air from inside the cockpit as the source, or is >it necessary to bring fresh air from the aircraft's exterior ? Obviously, cooler is better . . . but be wary of external air sources. We filled a few radios with rain water due


December 14, 2006 - January 02, 2007

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