AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-gv
April 02, 2007 - April 25, 2007
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dale Fultz" <dfultz7(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Location of electrical shunt |
Is one place better then another for the location of the electrical shunt
in the electrical system? Thanks Dale
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sam Marlow <sam(at)fr8dog.net> |
I'm looking to slow down my trim servo for cruise, does anyone have a
source for 1N5323 zener diodes, or a better idea?
Thanks,
Sam Marlow
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D Fritz <dfritzj(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Avionics Mounting |
I purchased some extruded bars and associated hardware that seems to work as well
as RadioRax for much less. Follow this link for the catalog. I haven't flown
yet, but mechanically these look like they'll work quite well, the bars are
made so that once you tighten down the mounting screws the aluminum is preloaded
and therefore resistant to loosening from vibration. Try this link:
http://www.8020.net/PDF/Fractional%20Section%201.pdf
Dan
---------------------------------
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com> |
Aircraft extras has a speed reducer, IE during slow flight the servos
move fast, and during fast flight the servos move slow. I have them
installed, but am not flying yet.
Dan
N289DT
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam
Marlow
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 9:34 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Zener Diodes
I'm looking to slow down my trim servo for cruise, does anyone have a
source for 1N5323 zener diodes, or a better idea?
Thanks,
Sam Marlow
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Location of electrical shunt |
>
>Is one place better then another for the location of the electrical shunt
>in the electrical system? Thanks Dale
Ammeters and voltmeters are diagnostic tools. They
have little or no value for operating the airplane.
When it comes time to diagnose a mis-behaving system,
you will undoubtedly need measurements at more places
in the system than any single set of points selected
for panel mounted voltmeters and ammeters.
If you have the space, have the instruments and want
to install them, it's my recommendation that voltmeters
read the e-bus and ammeters read alternator output
as a loadmeter.
This philosophy is illustrated in most of the z-figures.
No doubt there are other opinions backed up by a
range of personal preferences . . . but when it comes
time to take advantage of any voltage or current readings
to fix something, you'll probably be prowling around all
over the system with your multimeter.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sarg314 <sarg314(at)comcast.net> |
I just hooked up my magneto grounding wire (a shielded #18). Checking
with a continuity meter, there is continuity betwen the mag ground
terminal and the P-lead regardless of whether the switch is open or
closed or even disconnected, for that matter. I'm concluding from this
that the 2 terminals on the mag are connected internally through some
coil, so the continuity test doesn't show what I was expecting.
Is this correct?
--
Tom S.
RV-6A, wiring.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: magneto wiring |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Yep.
A buzzbox detects the difference in inductance between shorted to ground
via the points when the points are closed (L=0), and shorted to ground via
the primary winding in the coil when the points are open.
Matt-
>
> I just hooked up my magneto grounding wire (a shielded #18). Checking
> with a continuity meter, there is continuity betwen the mag ground
> terminal and the P-lead regardless of whether the switch is open or
> closed or even disconnected, for that matter. I'm concluding from this
> that the 2 terminals on the mag are connected internally through some
> coil, so the continuity test doesn't show what I was expecting.
>
> Is this correct?
>
> --
> Tom S.
> RV-6A, wiring.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: magneto wiring |
>
>I just hooked up my magneto grounding wire (a shielded #18). Checking
>with a continuity meter, there is continuity betwen the mag ground
>terminal and the P-lead regardless of whether the switch is open or closed
>or even disconnected, for that matter. I'm concluding from this that the
>2 terminals on the mag are connected internally through some coil, so the
>continuity test doesn't show what I was expecting.
>
>Is this correct?
The p-lead is connected across the PRIMARY winding
of the magneto coil which has a very low resistance.
Further, the timing points inside the magneto are
connected in parallel with the magneto switch
so even if the primary winding had some significant
resistance, your ohmmeter check would still read VERY
low if the points were closed.
This is why an ohmmeter cannot be used as a practical
tool for timing a magneto . . . it's exceedingly
difficult to deduce when the points open based purely
upon the DC resistance one observes from the outside
looking in. This is why you use a "buzz box". The
buzzer in a buzz-box generates a sort of AC signal
that IS NOT highly loaded by the AC impedance of the
magneto coil primary but IS severely loaded by closed
points.
Modern solid-state replacements for the century old
buzz box use electronics to generate an
AC signal needed to bias the magneto primary so
that transitions of conductivity across the points
may be readily detected during a timing operation.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sam Marlow <sam(at)fr8dog.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Zener Diodes |
Yes, I have there board, but they don't have the diodes.
Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
> Aircraft extras has a speed reducer, IE during slow flight the servos
> move fast, and during fast flight the servos move slow. I have them
> installed, but am not flying yet.
> Dan
> N289DT
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *Sam Marlow
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 03, 2007 9:34 AM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Zener Diodes
>
> I'm looking to slow down my trim servo for cruise, does anyone have a
> source for 1N5323 zener diodes, or a better idea?
> Thanks,
> Sam Marlow
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
> *
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rtitsworth" <rtitsworth(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | 12V batteries in series |
Bob, etal
I'm wiring two 12v batteries in series (to make a 24 volt battery). The
batteries I'm using (Panasonic) have threaded posts as terminals. The
(+)and (-) terminals are symmetric, so placing the batteries back-to-back,
places the intermediate terminals close to each other (~1.5" apart). The
batteries will be physically clamped together in the mount and are in the
tail (relatively low vibration).
Question: How to best "wire" the intermediate (+) and (-) terminals
together?
1. I can make short leads from welding cable (like the other main battery
connections). But, this uses much more material than necessary and creates
a space/routing problem in the battery mount/box.
2. I can make a short connection strap from some bar stock (assume approx 1"
x 2.5" x 1/8" or 3/16" thick) with two holes to mate with the threaded
terminal posts. What to make the strap from???
Copper - good conductivity but eventually corrodes
Aluminum - lighter, but corrosion (al oxide) in not very conductive
Steel - ??? Most vibration resistant?
What about plating any of the above? i.e. Copper with Tin or Nickel
plating. (I have access to a professional plating shop).
Rick Titsworth
Lancair ES - building.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | 12V batteries in series |
Good Evening Rick,
Way out of my area, but what would you think about using a soft copper strap
with a U shaped excursion to absorb any vibration or temperature caused
movement?
I would use a strap about 3/4 of an inch wide, one sixteenth of an inch
thick and with the U shape about an inch high (or low!). I would make it by
making a ninety degree bend, go up (or down) about three quarters of an inch to
one inch, make a one eighty back to where the U started, another ninety and off
to the other battery.
Nickel plating sounds like a great idea.
Your thoughts?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 4/3/2007 10:11:49 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
rtitsworth(at)mindspring.com writes:
Bob, etal
I'm wiring two 12v batteries in series (to make a 24 volt battery). The
batteries I'm using (Panasonic) have threaded posts as terminals. The
(+)and (-) terminals are symmetric, so placing the batteries back-to-back,
places the intermediate terminals close to each other (~1.5" apart). The
batteries will be physically clamped together in the mount and are in the
tail (relatively low vibration).
Question: How to best "wire" the intermediate (+) and (-) terminals
together?
1. I can make short leads from welding cable (like the other main battery
connections). But, this uses much more material than necessary and creates
a space/routing problem in the battery mount/box.
2. I can make a short connection strap from some bar stock (assume approx 1"
x 2.5" x 1/8" or 3/16" thick) with two holes to mate with the threaded
terminal posts. What to make the strap from???
Copper - good conductivity but eventually corrodes
Aluminum - lighter, but corrosion (al oxide) in not very conductive
Steel - ??? Most vibration resistant?
What about plating any of the above? i.e. Copper with Tin or Nickel
plating. (I have access to a professional plating shop).
Rick Titsworth
Lancair ES - building.
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Christopher Stone <rv8iator(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Zener Diodes |
Installed the Matronics Govenor in our first RV-8. Works great.
http://www.matronics.com/governor/
Don't think you will get there with a zener. Even a one watt will only pass 70
mA @ 14v. I think the trim servos can draw an amp when stalled.
Chris Stone
RV-8 x2
-----Original Message-----
>From: Sam Marlow <sam(at)fr8dog.net>
>Sent: Apr 3, 2007 6:33 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Zener Diodes
>
>I'm looking to slow down my trim servo for cruise, does anyone have a
>source for 1N5323 zener diodes, or a better idea?
>Thanks,
>Sam Marlow
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 12V batteries in series |
>
>
>Bob, etal
>
>I'm wiring two 12v batteries in series (to make a 24 volt battery). The
>batteries I'm using (Panasonic) have threaded posts as terminals. The
>(+)and (-) terminals are symmetric, so placing the batteries back-to-back,
>places the intermediate terminals close to each other (~1.5" apart). The
>batteries will be physically clamped together in the mount and are in the
>tail (relatively low vibration).
But not zero vibration. Battery terminals are designed
with limited structural integrity to mount conductors . .
the lighter and more flexible the better. With lead posted
batteries, there's real risk of stress cracks taking the
post of entirely. Batteries with molded in threads are
at risk for loosing the hermetic seal around the posts.
>Question: How to best "wire" the intermediate (+) and (-) terminals
>together?
>
>1. I can make short leads from welding cable (like the other main battery
>connections). But, this uses much more material than necessary and creates
>a space/routing problem in the battery mount/box.
A 3" piece of 4AWG with a couple of soldered or crimped terminals
represents a space problem?
>2. I can make a short connection strap from some bar stock (assume approx 1"
>x 2.5" x 1/8" or 3/16" thick) with two holes to mate with the threaded
>terminal posts. What to make the strap from???
Be wary of connections having considerable stiffness at
right angles to the terminal. 0.064 sheet brass from a hobby
shop is thick enough. These displays from K-S Engineering
are found in many hobby, craft and hardware stores. They
have small pieces of sheet brass.
http://tinyurl.com/286hsn
http://tinyurl.com/2638yx
Their p/n 248 is an .064 x 1 brass strip that is highly
suited to jumpers between robust studs like the pictures
shown here:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wiring_Technique/Contactor_Interconnect
But to avoid having the sheet stiffness bear against the
battery terminal, you'd want to make an "omega shaped"
jumper that stands up 1/2 to 1" above the surface so that
motion between the two terminals does not induce stress
due to the relative stiffness of the jumper.
>Copper - good conductivity but eventually corrodes
>Aluminum - lighter, but corrosion (al oxide) in not very conductive
>Steel - ??? Most vibration resistant?
It's not the jumper that's at risk . . . but the
battery terminals. Conductivity for so short a connection
is not a serious issue but ability of the material to
"give" under pressure of the threaded fasteners is what
works toward a gas-tight joint. When the joint is good,
the plating becomes a minor concern for longevity. If
you used a 4AWG jumper and tin plated copper terminals,
you will have selected a combination of materials designed
and proven to meet design goals for connective integrity.
If these are RG batteries, why a battery box? Adding an
enclosure around an RG battery has offers no mechanical
or operational advantages over simply strapping open
batteries into a tray that captures the footprint.
>What about plating any of the above? i.e. Copper with Tin or Nickel
>plating. (I have access to a professional plating shop).
Sound's like a good way to spend a lot of $time$ to
work around a $2 jumper that you can build up in about
ten minutes with a small torch and some house wire for
"wedges" . . . see:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/big_term.pdf
A 3-4" piece of welding cable would be fine for
the conductor. I need to update this article. Bernzomatic
has a really nice ST-100T, $10 butane torch
offered at places like Home Depot. I demonstrate
these and give them away at my weekend seminars. VERY
nicely built and the price is right. See:
http://tinyurl.com/37qyxf
http://tinyurl.com/3a933o
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott Derrick <scott(at)tnstaafl.net> |
| Subject: | VMS capacitance fuel probes used with Dynon EMS? |
Hi,
I have Vision Microsystems capacitance fuel probes installed in my
Velocity. I would like to use them with Dynon's EMS which requires a
0-5 volt output from the fuel probes. I don't know if the Vision probes
output frequency, capacitance or voltage. Dynon didn't seem to know
either.
Vision is going through extreme changes since bought by JPI, tech
support is nil, I've been waiting for a new Vision VM1000C since last
august and have given up waiting.
Any help in using these VMS fuel probes with the Dynon unit would be
greatly appreciated. The probes worked fine for 450 hours with a VM1000
unit,
I have heard that Princeton Electronics made capacitance fuel probe
converters but teh only number I have for them( 616-281-5193) is
disconnected.
thanks,
Scott
--
-
Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither
security nor liberty.
Benjamin Franklin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rtitsworth" <rtitsworth(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | 12V batteries in series |
BobN,
Thanks for the reply. Some follow-up comments/questions...
I'm not against #4AWG and crimped/soldered ends, but when placed
face-to-face, the battery terminals are only 1.5" apart. The top terminals
are in a recessed area (below the top battery surface) and thus really only
accessible from the sides (see attached photos.)
The short side of the batteries are nearly flush with a bulkhead (~.25"
gap), so the terminals are then really only accessible from the long side.
If I tried to make a #4 AWG wire to connect the face-to-face pair, them the
crimped/soldered ends would been less than 1/4" apart (essential the ends
would just be soldered together, stiff).
I could make a vertical "omega" strap, but if the paired batteries are
secured together, I'm not sure I see how the two posts vibrate relative to
each other? Rather, I was thinking that the terminals are only exposed to
the load(s) due to attempting to accelerate (vibrate) anything connected to
them. The direct connecting strap would be relatively light and so little
load would be imposed to the terminals. Furthermore, I'm thinking that
connecting something solid to both terminals cuts the force imparted to each
in half. ???
The K&S suggestion is helpful. I was thinking that I needed something
thicker (i.e. 1/8")
As an alternative, I could arrange the batteries back-to-back, but then the
connecting wire would need to run around the outside perimeter (> 18").
Perhaps that is best???
Additional thoughts/comments???
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 12V batteries in series
>
>
>Bob, etal
>
>I'm wiring two 12v batteries in series (to make a 24 volt battery). The
>batteries I'm using (Panasonic) have threaded posts as terminals. The
>(+)and (-) terminals are symmetric, so placing the batteries face-to-face,
>places the intermediate terminals close to each other (~1.5" apart). The
>batteries will be physically clamped together in the mount and are in the
>tail (relatively low vibration).
But not zero vibration. Battery terminals are designed
with limited structural integrity to mount conductors . .
the lighter and more flexible the better. With lead posted
batteries, there's real risk of stress cracks taking the
post of entirely. Batteries with molded in threads are
at risk for loosing the hermetic seal around the posts.
>Question: How to best "wire" the intermediate (+) and (-) terminals
>together?
>
>1. I can make short leads from welding cable (like the other main battery
>connections). But, this uses much more material than necessary and creates
>a space/routing problem in the battery mount/box.
A 3" piece of 4AWG with a couple of soldered or crimped terminals
represents a space problem?
>2. I can make a short connection strap from some bar stock (assume approx
1"
>x 2.5" x 1/8" or 3/16" thick) with two holes to mate with the threaded
>terminal posts. What to make the strap from???
Be wary of connections having considerable stiffness at
right angles to the terminal. 0.064 sheet brass from a hobby
shop is thick enough. These displays from K-S Engineering
are found in many hobby, craft and hardware stores. They
have small pieces of sheet brass.
http://tinyurl.com/286hsn
http://tinyurl.com/2638yx
Their p/n 248 is an .064 x 1 brass strip that is highly
suited to jumpers between robust studs like the pictures
shown here:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wiring_Technique/Contactor_Interconnect
But to avoid having the sheet stiffness bear against the
battery terminal, you'd want to make an "omega shaped"
jumper that stands up 1/2 to 1" above the surface so that
motion between the two terminals does not induce stress
due to the relative stiffness of the jumper.
>Copper - good conductivity but eventually corrodes
>Aluminum - lighter, but corrosion (al oxide) in not very conductive
>Steel - ??? Most vibration resistant?
It's not the jumper that's at risk . . . but the
battery terminals. Conductivity for so short a connection
is not a serious issue but ability of the material to
"give" under pressure of the threaded fasteners is what
works toward a gas-tight joint. When the joint is good,
the plating becomes a minor concern for longevity. If
you used a 4AWG jumper and tin plated copper terminals,
you will have selected a combination of materials designed
and proven to meet design goals for connective integrity.
If these are RG batteries, why a battery box? Adding an
enclosure around an RG battery has offers no mechanical
or operational advantages over simply strapping open
batteries into a tray that captures the footprint.
>What about plating any of the above? i.e. Copper with Tin or Nickel
>plating. (I have access to a professional plating shop).
Sound's like a good way to spend a lot of $time$ to
work around a $2 jumper that you can build up in about
ten minutes with a small torch and some house wire for
"wedges" . . . see:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/big_term.pdf
A 3-4" piece of welding cable would be fine for
the conductor. I need to update this article. Bernzomatic
has a really nice ST-100T, $10 butane torch
offered at places like Home Depot. I demonstrate
these and give them away at my weekend seminars. VERY
nicely built and the price is right. See:
http://tinyurl.com/37qyxf
http://tinyurl.com/3a933o
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Morgensen <john(at)morgensen.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Avionics Mounting |
Dan, can you provide more info on your rack design using these parts?
The 'finds' on this list are amazing!
John Morgensen
D Fritz wrote:
> I purchased some extruded bars and associated hardware that seems to
> work as well as RadioRax for much less. Follow this link for the
> catalog. I haven't flown yet, but mechanically these look like they'll
> work quite well, the bars are made so that once you tighten down the
> mounting screws the aluminum is preloaded and therefore resistant to
> loosening from vibration. Try this link:
>
> http://www.8020.net/PDF/Fractional%20Section%201.pdf
>
> Dan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 >
> (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 >
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | 12V batteries in series |
>
>
>I could make a vertical "omega" strap, but if the paired batteries are
>secured together, I'm not sure I see how the two posts vibrate relative to
>each other? Rather, I was thinking that the terminals are only exposed to
>the load(s) due to attempting to accelerate (vibrate) anything connected
>to them. The direct connecting strap would be relatively light and so
>little load would be imposed to the terminals. Furthermore, I m thinking
>that connecting something solid to both terminals cuts the force imparted
>to each in half. ???
When you have two chunks of lead like these
you only 'think' you have them strapped together.
It's not the weight of the strap but the weights
of the two batteries and the inability to make them
absolutely immobile to each other for all modes of
vibration.
>
>
>The K&S suggestion is helpful. I was thinking that I needed something
>thicker (i.e. 1/8")
No, nothing nearly that thick. All I can do is
give you best practices based on having torn a lot
of stuff up in qualification testing that I thought
was pretty robust. Give it a try. What you've proposed
will probably be okay.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Baker" <jlbaker(at)msbit.net> |
| Subject: | AC 43.13 voltage drop.... |
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41)
Just looking at the following (and being somewhat electron
challenged)....
Para 11-66
b. Voltage Drop in Wires. The voltage
drop in the main power wires from the generation
source or the battery to the bus should not
exceed 2 percent of the regulated voltage when
the generator is carrying rated current or the
battery is being discharged at the 5-minute
rate. The tabulation shown in table 11-6 defines
the maximum acceptable voltage drop in
the load circuits between the bus and the utilization
equipment ground.
Nominal system voltage Allowable voltage Intermittent
drop continuous operation
operation
14 0.5 1
28 1 2
__________________________________________________
Since there isn't any generally published 5 minute discharge rate
for most batteries, how would one handle this? I take this as
representing a fully loaded system. Is this irrespective of the
circuit protection methodology?
Thanks....
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
Elmore City, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Baker" <jlbaker(at)msbit.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AC 43.13 voltage drop.... |
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41)
Dang....that's from AC 43-13.......I hate gettin' old....
>
> Just looking at the following (and being somewhat electron
> challenged)....
>
> Para 11-66
>
> b. Voltage Drop in Wires. The voltage
> drop in the main power wires from the generation
> source or the battery to the bus should not
> exceed 2 percent of the regulated voltage when
> the generator is carrying rated current or the
> battery is being discharged at the 5-minute
> rate. The tabulation shown in table 11-6 defines
> the maximum acceptable voltage drop in
> the load circuits between the bus and the utilization
> equipment ground.
>
>
> Nominal system voltage Allowable voltage Intermittent
> drop continuous operation
> operation
> 14 0.5 1
> 28 1 2
> __________________________________________________
>
> Since there isn't any generally published 5 minute discharge rate
> for most batteries, how would one handle this? I take this as
> representing a fully loaded system. Is this irrespective of the
> circuit protection methodology?
>
> Thanks....
>
>
> Jim Baker
> 580.788.2779
> Elmore City, OK
>
>
>
>
>
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
Elmore City, OK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rtitsworth" <rtitsworth(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | 12V batteries in series - a few more followup questions |
BobN,
Thanks much (as usual)!!! I'm going to try the omega bend connector, it
should be pretty simple with the thin material - probably better than the
straight/flat connector, perhaps not as robust as the 4AWG cable - sort of a
compromise in my mind.
Follow-up question#1: Let's say sometime in the future, one of the
terminals or the omega connector strap comes loose or breaks off in flight.
How would I know (during the flight)? My ignorant guesses below.
a) The ammeter (shunt on the battery lead) would move from perhaps a slight
charging state to zero, but that might not be noticeable.
b) I understand the alternator would not be happy without the battery. But,
how would I know? Voltage fluctuations? Potential overvoltage (crowbar)
scenario?
c) Other???
Follow-up question #2: What type of nut should I use on the threaded
battery terminal? I'm assuming just a plain (AN345) nut (Cad plated,
Stainless, other)? However, it would be nice to safety it somehow (perhaps
overkill). Would it make sense to use two nuts (a jam nut)? Would it make
sense to use a nylon lock nut as the 2nd jam nut? Would it make most sense
to just use one all metal stop nut (AN363)
Follow-up question #3: Assuming a ground stud through the firewall, what
should the stud be made of (steel) (zink plated) (other)? What type of
nut(s) should I use on it (same as the battery terminal)? What type of nut
should I use on the engine side of the engine ground braid?
Rick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "RV_10" <john_rv10(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Rear Mounted Batteries - more questions |
Thanks Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, 3 April 2007 12:34 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Rear Mounted Batteries - more questions
>Hello 'Lectric Bob,
>
>Thank you for all the fantastic effort you put into this group. It is
>extremely helpful to those of us with zero earlier experience in this area.
>
>I have read the Connection a couple of times and I have been pondering the
>whole issue of batteries and locations and fat wires etc.
>
>Attached is a schematic of a Z-14, architecture for rear batteries. This is
>not your current Z-14, and I don't know now where I got this from, but it
>very specifically states that the Aft Ground Buss is NOT Grounded to the
>airframe.
>
>My wife and I are building an RV-10. We are planning an all electric IFR
>panel and a two PC625 battery, two alternator electrical system. Would you
>please make your comments specific to this setup?
>
>Am I correct in assuming that there is an ideal setup for a two rear
>battery, two alternator system, which is the Z-14 attached, and then there
>is a more practical setup, which has the batteries grounded at the rear. Is
>this correct?
Essentially yes. If one were building a composite aircraft, then a
fat feeder for battery(-) leads to the firewall is REQUIRED. But in
a metal airplane, one has the option of crafting a pristine system
depicted in the sketch -or- taking advantage of the airframe as
a power return for devices that are NOT potential victims to ground
loop conducted noises.
>Would you please comment on the relative merits of these two different
>approaches, and especially comment on any downside of both approaches?
>
>If you ground both rear batteries as suggested down the back to the
>airframe, do you then set up your avionics ground bus at the panel simply
by
>connecting it to the firewall Ground? Are there any issues or concerns with
>doing this?
Nope. Your engine straps to the bolt at this ground also.
> >From a purely electrical perspective, would it be preferable in our
>situation (ignoring weight and balance questions for the moment) to have
>either battery situated up the front somewhere? If yes, which would be
>preferable to put up the front, and why?
Batteries are the ultimate mitigator of CG problems. From
the electrical perspective, we'd like to have all the starters,
alternators and batteries be grouped together in something under
2 cubic feet of common volume. As a practical matter, batteries
are placed where they need to go to accommodate other airframe design
goals. As a major component of weight and volume, batteries are
among the very few items where performance is not seriously
compromised by moving them around.
>I also have a couple of other questions on the attached Figure Z-14. Does
>the single ground lead from both batteries to the front provide a single
>source of total failure? And lastly, why have you specified the
copper/brass
>strap on the power side of the main battery in the attached Z-14?
The crossfeed contactor, starter contactor and current limiter
block can be mounted within inches of each other and "wired" with
flat strap like the pictures found in this directory . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wiring_Technique/
The short straps are much easier to fabricate and install than
very short hunks of fat wire with terminals.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joe Garner <jgarner(at)dslextreme.com> |
| Subject: | Re: VMS capacitance fuel probes used with Dynon EMS? |
You can get the Princeton converter from Grand Rapids. Also I think
Blue Mt. makes one if you want to deal with them...
Several articles on the Internet for roll your own converters if you search.
Im putting in a GRT EIS in place of an EPI800 which uses those same probes.
HTH, Joe
Scott Derrick wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I have Vision Microsystems capacitance fuel probes installed in my
> Velocity. I would like to use them with Dynon's EMS which requires a
> 0-5 volt output from the fuel probes. I don't know if the Vision probes
> output frequency, capacitance or voltage. Dynon didn't seem to know
> either.
> Vision is going through extreme changes since bought by JPI, tech
> support is nil, I've been waiting for a new Vision VM1000C since last
> august and have given up waiting.
>
> Any help in using these VMS fuel probes with the Dynon unit would be
> greatly appreciated. The probes worked fine for 450 hours with a VM1000
> unit,
>
> I have heard that Princeton Electronics made capacitance fuel probe
> converters but teh only number I have for them( 616-281-5193) is
> disconnected.
>
> thanks,
>
> Scott
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | VMS capacitance fuel probes used with Dynon EMS? |
4/5/2007
Scott wrote: "Vision is going through extreme changes since bought by JPI,
tech
support is nil, I've been waiting for a new Vision VM1000C since last
august and have given up waiting."
How sad -- from the very best down to the pits.
OC -- The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand
knowledge.
From: Scott Derrick <scott(at)tnstaafl.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: VMS capacitance fuel probes used with Dynon EMS?
Hi,
I have Vision Microsystems capacitance fuel probes installed in my
Velocity. I would like to use them with Dynon's EMS which requires a
0-5 volt output from the fuel probes. I don't know if the Vision probes
output frequency, capacitance or voltage. Dynon didn't seem to know
either.
Vision is going through extreme changes since bought by JPI, tech
support is nil, I've been waiting for a new Vision VM1000C since last
august and have given up waiting.
Any help in using these VMS fuel probes with the Dynon unit would be
greatly appreciated. The probes worked fine for 450 hours with a VM1000
unit,
I have heard that Princeton Electronics made capacitance fuel probe
converters but teh only number I have for them( 616-281-5193) is
disconnected.
thanks,
Scott
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | wgill10(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Trim relays foe china hat |
I'm using a "china hat" on the stick grip for pitch & roll trim. Does this require
two DPDT relays? Suggestions/drawings for this installation appreciated appreciated...thanks.
Bill
I'm using a "china hat" on the stick grip for pitch & roll trim. Does
this require two DPDT relays? Suggestions/drawings for this installation
appreciated appreciated...thanks.
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Vouga" <gmvouga(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Electrical Design Confusion |
All,
I'm having some heartburn trying to figure out the best electrical system to
use. I am planning on the following type of system:
- All electric IFR setup ( Dual GRT, Garmin radio/GPS stack, Autopilot, AOA)
- Superior XP-360 w 1 lightspeed electronic ignition and 1 slick mag
- Thinking about the SD-8 alternator
- Single battery
I was looking at the Z-13/20 diagram and planning to substiture the 20A
alternator for the SD-8. Will this work? I also looked at the Z-13/8, but
it seems that it is missing some of the benefits and simplicity of the LR-3
controllers.
Any help on this would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Greg
_________________________________________________________________
Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps.
http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag3
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Electrical Design Confusion |
>
>All,
>
>I'm having some heartburn trying to figure out the best electrical system
>to use. I am planning on the following type of system:
>
>- All electric IFR setup ( Dual GRT, Garmin radio/GPS stack, Autopilot, AOA)
>- Superior XP-360 w 1 lightspeed electronic ignition and 1 slick mag
>- Thinking about the SD-8 alternator
>- Single battery
>
>I was looking at the Z-13/20 diagram and planning to substiture the 20A
>alternator for the SD-8. Will this work? I also looked at the Z-13/8,
>but it seems that it is missing some of the benefits and simplicity of the
>LR-3 controllers.
>
>Any help on this would be appreciated.
The vast majority of OBAM aircraft flying would be
just fine using Z-11 taking advantage of the reliability
of modern alternators and RG batteries combined with
the e-bus alternate feed philosophy. IF you don't plan
to have a vacuum system, then plugging the open hole
on the back of the engine with an SD-8 is a good thing to
do and you step up to Z-13/8.
In Z-13/20, the aux alternator IS an SD-20 . . . but
what makes you think you'll NEED this kind of auxiliary
energy? Also, be aware that the depiction of any particular
brand of main alternator and its associated controller
is NOT carved in stone. The Z-figures are to illustrate
architectures and should not be interpreted to recommend
specific hardware, breaker-fuse sizes, wire sizes or what
gizmo runs from which bus. These are things you need to
decide based on the specifics of your hardware selections
and operating philosophy.
From what you've described I'm betting that Z-13/8
is going to meet all your needs with a minimum of weight
and cost.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Trim relays foe china hat |
>I'm using a "china hat" on the stick grip for pitch & roll trim. Does this
>require two DPDT relays? Suggestions/drawings for this installation
>appreciated appreciated...thanks.
>
>Bill
No, SPDT relays are fine. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Trim/trim2.pdf
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AC 43.13 voltage drop.... |
>
>Just looking at the following (and being somewhat electron
>challenged)....
>
>Para 11-66
>
>b. Voltage Drop in Wires. The voltage
>drop in the main power wires from the generation
>source or the battery to the bus should not
>exceed 2 percent of the regulated voltage when
>the generator is carrying rated current or the
>battery is being discharged at the 5-minute
>rate. The tabulation shown in table 11-6 defines
>the maximum acceptable voltage drop in
>the load circuits between the bus and the utilization
>equipment ground.
>
>
>Nominal system voltage Allowable voltage Intermittent
> drop continuous operation
> operation
>14 0.5 1
>28 1 2
>__________________________________________________
>
>Since there isn't any generally published 5 minute discharge rate
>for most batteries, how would one handle this? I take this as
>representing a fully loaded system. Is this irrespective of the
>circuit protection methodology?
Most folks don't handle it. When selecting fat wires for
the airplane, most of them carry starter current which drives
the selection to 4AWG on compact systems and 2AWG when it's
more spread out . . . even 0AWG on seaplanes with 28-foot runs
from starter to battery. After these guys are laid in, we use
the same wires to connect the alternator to the battery.
Once we've accommodated the 200+ amps required by the starter,
the wire paths for 60 or so amps of current generated by the
alternator are already covered.
These paragraphs go toward large and much more complex
aircraft where power generation systems may not be
so integrated with engine cranking.
BE CAUTIOUS of AC43-13. It's got some useful information
but it's also a catalog of ideas that span a huge range
of situations . . . MANY of which are not applicable to
the OBAM aircraft.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott Derrick <scott(at)tnstaafl.net> |
| Subject: | Re: VMS capacitance fuel probes used with Dynon EMS? |
Joe,
What is the output of the VMS fuel probe? capacitance, frequency,
voltage? It does have some kind of circuitry built into the end of it.
I found an article by Jim Wier about building a capacitance fuel probe
circuit which looks very doable.
thanks for the info.
Scott
Joe Garner wrote:
>
> You can get the Princeton converter from Grand Rapids. Also I think
> Blue Mt. makes one if you want to deal with them...
>
> Several articles on the Internet for roll your own converters if you search.
>
> Im putting in a GRT EIS in place of an EPI800 which uses those same probes.
>
>
> HTH, Joe
>
>
> Scott Derrick wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have Vision Microsystems capacitance fuel probes installed in my
>> Velocity. I would like to use them with Dynon's EMS which requires a
>> 0-5 volt output from the fuel probes. I don't know if the Vision probes
>> output frequency, capacitance or voltage. Dynon didn't seem to know
>> either.
>> Vision is going through extreme changes since bought by JPI, tech
>> support is nil, I've been waiting for a new Vision VM1000C since last
>> august and have given up waiting.
>>
>> Any help in using these VMS fuel probes with the Dynon unit would be
>> greatly appreciated. The probes worked fine for 450 hours with a VM1000
>> unit,
>>
>> I have heard that Princeton Electronics made capacitance fuel probe
>> converters but teh only number I have for them( 616-281-5193) is
>> disconnected.
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> Scott
>>
>>
>
>
>
--
-
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty
than to those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson to Archibald Stuart, 1791. ME 8:276
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Trim relays foe china hat |
| From: | "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com> |
You can get a good drawing off of aircraft extras website, and get the
decks there too if you want
Dan
N289DT RV10E
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
wgill10(at)comcast.net
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 7:25 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Trim relays foe china hat
I'm using a "china hat" on the stick grip for pitch & roll trim. Does
this require two DPDT relays? Suggestions/drawings for this installation
appreciated appreciated...thanks.
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | wgill10(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Trim relays for china hat |
Thank-you Dan and Bob...I understand.
Bill
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com>
You can get a good drawing off of aircraft extras website, and get the decks there
too if you want
Dan
N289DT RV10E
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of wgill10(at)comcast.net
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 7:25 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Trim relays for china hat
I'm using a "china hat" on the stick grip for pitch & roll trim. Does this require
two DPDT relays? Suggestions/drawings for this installation appreciated...thanks.
Bill
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Thank-you Dan and Bob...I understand.
Bill
You can get a good drawing off of aircraft extras website, and get
the decks there too if you want
Dan
N289DT RV10E
I'm using a "china hat" on the stick grip for pitch & roll trim. Does
this require two DPDT relays? Suggestions/drawings for this installation
appreciated...thanks.
Bill
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Vouga" <gmvouga(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Electrical Design Confusion |
Bob,
Thanks for the information. This is helping... However, i have a couple
more questions.
1. The LR-3 alternator controller looks like a nice option and simplifies
things (crowbar, indicator light, regulator all-in-one) for the main
alternator. Is there any reason, other than cost, not to use this?
2. For the SD-8 it would be nice to have a indicator light or gage to make
sure it's functioning properly. I could wire this into the circuit as well,
but I still need regulator and crowbar OV. So... Is there any reason not
to use the LR-3 other than cost. In Z-13/8 it simply states "voltage
Regulator." Is there a specific model that you recommend?
As you might already be able to figure out, I'm a little electron
challenged. So forgive me if any of these questions seem a somewhat basic.
I have actually read the AeroElectric Connection, but I'm still a little
confused. I'm really just looking for a safe, simple, wiring archetecture
that will fit my equipment (Avionics and engine) choices. Saving a few
pennies would be nice, but at this point i would pay a few more bucks to
make it simple. The This is really the reason that I was thinking of just
trading the SD-8 for the 20 amp alternator in Z-13/20. I don't think I need
the 20A alternator, and the SD-8 will add the safety that I am looking for
in my all electric system. Is there any reason not to do this?
Thanks in advance,
Greg
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electrical Design Confusion
>Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 09:08:50 -0500
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>All,
>>
>>I'm having some heartburn trying to figure out the best electrical system
>>to use. I am planning on the following type of system:
>>
>>- All electric IFR setup ( Dual GRT, Garmin radio/GPS stack, Autopilot,
>>AOA)
>>- Superior XP-360 w 1 lightspeed electronic ignition and 1 slick mag
>>- Thinking about the SD-8 alternator
>>- Single battery
>>
>>I was looking at the Z-13/20 diagram and planning to substiture the 20A
>>alternator for the SD-8. Will this work? I also looked at the Z-13/8,
>>but it seems that it is missing some of the benefits and simplicity of the
>>LR-3 controllers.
>>
>>Any help on this would be appreciated.
>
> The vast majority of OBAM aircraft flying would be
> just fine using Z-11 taking advantage of the reliability
> of modern alternators and RG batteries combined with
> the e-bus alternate feed philosophy. IF you don't plan
> to have a vacuum system, then plugging the open hole
> on the back of the engine with an SD-8 is a good thing to
> do and you step up to Z-13/8.
>
> In Z-13/20, the aux alternator IS an SD-20 . . . but
> what makes you think you'll NEED this kind of auxiliary
> energy? Also, be aware that the depiction of any particular
> brand of main alternator and its associated controller
> is NOT carved in stone. The Z-figures are to illustrate
> architectures and should not be interpreted to recommend
> specific hardware, breaker-fuse sizes, wire sizes or what
> gizmo runs from which bus. These are things you need to
> decide based on the specifics of your hardware selections
> and operating philosophy.
>
> From what you've described I'm betting that Z-13/8
> is going to meet all your needs with a minimum of weight
> and cost.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Download Messenger. Join the im Initiative. Help make a difference today.
http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_APR07
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill and Marsha" <docyukon(at)ptcnet.net> |
| Subject: | EL light strip dimming |
What resistance and wattage pot would be needed to dim a three ft. EL
lighting strip. Bill S
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Electrical Design Confusion |
>
>Bob,
>
>Thanks for the information. This is helping... However, i have a couple
>more questions.
>
>1. The LR-3 alternator controller looks like a nice option and simplifies
>things (crowbar, indicator light, regulator all-in-one) for the main
>alternator. Is there any reason, other than cost, not to use this?
The voltage regulator for an SD-8 is unique to that product and comes
with it. You can't use an LR-3 with the SD-8.
>2. For the SD-8 it would be nice to have a indicator light or gage to
>make sure it's functioning properly. I could wire this into the circuit
>as well, but I still need regulator and crowbar OV. So... Is there any
>reason not to use the LR-3 other than cost. In Z-13/8 it simply states
>"voltage Regulator." Is there a specific model that you recommend?
The functionality indicator for ALL alternators is active
notification of low volage . . . i.e. flash a light
if the bus voltage is less than 13.0 volts. OV protection
for the SD-8 is illustrated in Z-13/8
>As you might already be able to figure out, I'm a little electron
>challenged. So forgive me if any of these questions seem a somewhat basic.
>I have actually read the AeroElectric Connection, but I'm still a little
>confused. I'm really just looking for a safe, simple, wiring archetecture
>that will fit my equipment (Avionics and engine) choices. Saving a few
>pennies would be nice, but at this point i would pay a few more bucks to
>make it simple. The This is really the reason that I was thinking of just
>trading the SD-8 for the 20 amp alternator in Z-13/20. I don't think I
>need the 20A alternator, and the SD-8 will add the safety that I am
>looking for in my all electric system. Is there any reason not to do this?
Yes. Too heavy, too expensive and overkill for what you need.
Z-13/8 as published is all you're going to ever need and
more.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D Fritz <dfritzj(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Avionics Mounting |
Sure thing, unfortunately, I can't send any pictures out. I bought the 1" square
extruded profile (don't remember the part number, but it's in the catalog).
I used one face to attach the bar to the back of the panel with countersunk
screws and "T" nuts in the bar. That left the other three sides available for
things to attach to, with one of these bars on each side of the opening for the
avionics stack, I simply put screws through the holes in the avionics trays
and threaded them into "T" nuts dropped into the slots on the bar. It worked
very well and was simple to assemble while also leaving lots of flexibility for
the future. Time will tell how well this setup stands up to vibration in flight,
but I have high hopes. The only downside to these vice the pricier commercial
option is that these take up a full inch side to side for each bar while
the other only uses about a half inch. I had the room in my Velocity panel
so it wasn't a big deal.
I hope this was clear enough, if not let me know and I'll arrange for some photos.
Dan
---------------------------------
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | aux music input quiet on flightcom 403mc |
| From: | "bryanflood" <bryanflood(at)hotmail.com> |
I had the same problem many others did connecting a music input to my flightcom
403mc. The music was so soft at top volume I could barely hear it on the ground
and not at all in flight. Turns out in order to save $ there is apparently
no pre-amp in this intercom. So if you want to hook up an mp3 player or walkman
or whatever you need to supply your own pre-amp. I looked at all the options
and decided to try to build my own. I looked at a lot of circuits and borrowed
heavily from some like Bob N. I had problems with bobs circuit when coverting
from a stereo input to a mono output. It appears that on his amp design where
one leg of the stereo input goes to the + input on the op amp and the other
leg of the stereo input to the - input on the op amp. So when you hook it up it
seems some of the music cancels out any you get some really funky sounds. Very
cool, but no music. Maybe I did it wrong, after all Bob is the expert but it
certainly looked like bobs design on the breadboard. After lots of testing however
I made changes to any existing designs to get the volume to a reasonable
level in the headset with the volume control turned to a medium level on my
mp3 player. My set-up is simple the mp3 player headphone jack simply goes into
the aux music input jack which goes thru this little amp and then to the intercom.
Anyway, I'm not an electrical engineer (I'm mechanical) so I am really not
all that great at designing circuits, but this one works for me. I thought
I would post it in case anybody want to use it as a starting point for their own
amp.
http://www.geocities.com/bryanflood2001/AudioAmpfor403MC.bmp
Bryan
--------
Rv-9A completed.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=105270#105270
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/audioampfor403mc_146.bmp
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: aux music input quiet on flightcom 403mc |
>
>I had the same problem many others did connecting a music input to my
>flightcom 403mc. The music was so soft at top volume I could barely hear
>it on the ground and not at all in flight. Turns out in order to save $
>there is apparently no pre-amp in this intercom. So if you want to hook up
>an mp3 player or walkman or whatever you need to supply your own pre-amp.
>I looked at all the options and decided to try to build my own. I looked
>at a lot of circuits and borrowed heavily from some like Bob N. I had
>problems with bobs circuit when coverting from a stereo input to a mono
>output. It appears that on his amp design where one leg of the stereo
>input goes to the + input on the op amp and the other leg of the stereo
>input to the - input on the op amp. So when you hook it up it seems some
>of the music cancels out any you get some really funky sounds. Very cool,
>but no music. Maybe I did it wrong, after all Bob is the expert but it
>certainly looked like bobs design on the breadboar!
Hmmmm . . . stupid mistake. I'm mystified as to how that
happened because I have two other versions of the board
that are wired correctly. I've have a version
9009-300-2A which IS wired with the correct polarity but
also adds spaces for R98 and R99 load resistors cited
in Note 8 on the drawing. I'll get these ordered tonight.
The flipped polarity for stereo-inputs blew right past
me on the earlier version.
> d. After lots of testing however I made changes to any existing designs
> to get the volume to a reasonable level in the headset with the volume
> control turned to a medium level on my mp3 player. My set-up is simple
> the mp3 player headphone jack simply goes into the aux music input jack
> which goes thru this little amp and then to the intercom. Anyway, I'm not
> an electrical engineer (I'm mechanical) so I am really not all that great
> at designing circuits, but this one works for me. I thought I would post
> it in case anybody want to use it as a starting point for their own amp.
>
>http://www.geocities.com/bryanflood2001/AudioAmpfor403MC.bmp
Can't argue with success! If folks are interested
in more detail on the LM386 audio amplifier chip
the data sheet can be downloaded from . . .
http://cache.national.com/ds/LM/LM386.pdf
In the mean time, if anyone is interested building
the isolation amplifier and doesn't mind doing a bit
of chop-n-tack to fix the layout error, watch for
the 9009-300-1 boards to go on sale for $10 each
when I add the newer 9009-300-2A versions at the
regular price.
Thanks for the heads-up on this Bryan.
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: aux music input quiet on flightcom 403mc |
>
>I had the same problem many others did connecting a music input to my
>flightcom 403mc. The music was so soft at top volume I could barely hear
>it on the ground and not at all in flight. Turns out in order to save $
>there is apparently no pre-amp in this intercom. So if you want to hook up
>an mp3 player or walkman or whatever you need to supply your own pre-amp.
>I looked at all the options and decided to try to build my own. I looked
>at a lot of circuits and borrowed heavily from some like Bob N. I had
>problems with bobs circuit when coverting from a stereo input to a mono
>output. It appears that on his amp design where one leg of the stereo
>input goes to the + input on the op amp and the other leg of the stereo
>input to the - input on the op amp. So when you hook it up it seems some
>of the music cancels out any you get some really funky sounds. Very cool,
>but no music. Maybe I did it wrong, after all Bob is the expert but it
>certainly looked like bobs design on the breadboar!
> d. After lots of testing however I made changes to any existing designs
> to get the volume to a reasonable level in the headset with the volume
> control turned to a medium level on my mp3 player. My set-up is simple
> the mp3 player headphone jack simply goes into the aux music input jack
> which goes thru this little amp and then to the intercom. Anyway, I'm not
> an electrical engineer (I'm mechanical) so I am really not all that great
> at designing circuits, but this one works for me. I thought I would post
> it in case anybody want to use it as a starting point for their own amp.
>
>http://www.geocities.com/bryanflood2001/AudioAmpfor403MC.bmp
You might want to consider a couple of resistors in
series with each of the stereo outputs before you
bring them together as a monophonic mix. Output
signals from the two channels are not identical
and some degradation of audio will occur when the
outputs "load" each other as described in the chapter
on audio systems. Something on the order of 47 ohms
per side is suggested.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Vouga" <gmvouga(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Electrical Design Confusion |
Bob,
Thanks for your input. Looks like Z-13/8 is the direction that I'll be
going.
Greg
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electrical Design Confusion
>Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 20:20:38 -0500
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>Bob,
>>
>>Thanks for the information. This is helping... However, i have a couple
>>more questions.
>>
>>1. The LR-3 alternator controller looks like a nice option and simplifies
>>things (crowbar, indicator light, regulator all-in-one) for the main
>>alternator. Is there any reason, other than cost, not to use this?
>
> The voltage regulator for an SD-8 is unique to that product and comes
> with it. You can't use an LR-3 with the SD-8.
>
>
>>2. For the SD-8 it would be nice to have a indicator light or gage to
>>make sure it's functioning properly. I could wire this into the circuit
>>as well, but I still need regulator and crowbar OV. So... Is there any
>>reason not to use the LR-3 other than cost. In Z-13/8 it simply states
>>"voltage Regulator." Is there a specific model that you recommend?
>
> The functionality indicator for ALL alternators is active
> notification of low volage . . . i.e. flash a light
> if the bus voltage is less than 13.0 volts. OV protection
> for the SD-8 is illustrated in Z-13/8
>
>
>>As you might already be able to figure out, I'm a little electron
>>challenged. So forgive me if any of these questions seem a somewhat
>>basic.
>>I have actually read the AeroElectric Connection, but I'm still a little
>>confused. I'm really just looking for a safe, simple, wiring archetecture
>>that will fit my equipment (Avionics and engine) choices. Saving a few
>>pennies would be nice, but at this point i would pay a few more bucks to
>>make it simple. The This is really the reason that I was thinking of just
>>trading the SD-8 for the 20 amp alternator in Z-13/20. I don't think I
>>need the 20A alternator, and the SD-8 will add the safety that I am
>>looking for in my all electric system. Is there any reason not to do
>>this?
>
> Yes. Too heavy, too expensive and overkill for what you need.
> Z-13/8 as published is all you're going to ever need and
> more.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Interest Rates Fall Again! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate new
payment
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron Quillin" <rjquillin(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: aux music input quiet on flightcom 403mc |
A couple of comments if I may. First I have to agree with Bob,
directly connecting two outputs to one another is not a good idea, at
all, and can cause damage to the output circuit of the source device.
47 ohms would work, but at a minimum use a value equal to the
impedance (resistance) of the earphone/speaker normally connected; say
10 ohms minimum. Also, the 10 ohm 10uF combination will limit low
frequencies below ~1600Hz; Ok if you don't want much low end, but...
Attached is a pdf you may want to try. Keep the rest as you had it if
it seems to work well. This one will sum (mix) the L & R signals
without nuking the mp3 player's output, should give you cleaner audio
as well. If you don't like the 10/100 ohm pair, go to 100/1k instead.
Also with this combination the LF will be extended down to about
160Hz.
Ron Q.
old audio engineer.
> > Anyway, I'm not
> > an electrical engineer (I'm mechanical) so I am really not all that great
> > at designing circuits, but this one works for me. I thought I would post
> > it in case anybody want to use it as a starting point for their own amp.
> >
> >http://www.geocities.com/bryanflood2001/AudioAmpfor403MC.bmp
>
> You might want to consider a couple of resistors in
> series with each of the stereo outputs before you
> bring them together as a monophonic mix. Output
> signals from the two channels are not identical
> and some degradation of audio will occur when the
> outputs "load" each other as described in the chapter
> on audio systems. Something on the order of 47 ohms
> per side is suggested.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: aux music input quiet on flightcom 403mc |
| From: | "bryanflood" <bryanflood(at)hotmail.com> |
Bob and Ron, thanks for the advice, it looks like I may need to do yet another
mod... for some reason I am having trouble with the .pdf file from Ron. Could
you send it to me directly at bryanflood(at)hotmail.com? I would really appreciate
it.
Thanks again,
Bryan
--------
Rv-9A completed.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=105395#105395
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: aux music input quiet on flightcom 403mc |
| From: | "bryanflood" <bryanflood(at)hotmail.com> |
WOOPS, I foud the drawing from Ron. Just needed to read a bit further.
Sorry,
Bryan
--------
Rv-9A completed.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=105398#105398
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Starter contactor location |
| From: | "Leo Holler" <leoh(at)gci.net> |
I am planning to locate my battery (RG type), battery contactor, and voltage regulator
in the left boot cowl area of the cabin in my PA-22/20. I also have room
to locate the starter contactor there as well, all within inches of the battery
and access all from a planned door on the boot cowl. The starter contactor
would be only a few inches from the firewall.
It seems I have read where Bob says that the starter contactor should be kept close
to the starter. Is this location close enough or is it better to move it
to the engine side of the firewall (about 4 to 5 inches closer to the starter)?
Thanks for any help.
Leo Holler
leoh(at)gci.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=105416#105416
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John Burnaby" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
| Subject: | Re: VMS capacitance fuel probes used with Dynon EMS? |
The Princeton converters for Electronics International probes were $200
each. Skysports makes capacitance probes up to 8' with 5VDC output that
will work with the Advanced Flight Systems 3400/3500 EFIS/Engine combo
that I plan to use. Skysports probes are $110.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter contactor location |
>
>I am planning to locate my battery (RG type), battery contactor, and
>voltage regulator in the left boot cowl area of the cabin in my PA-22/20.
>I also have room to locate the starter contactor there as well, all within
>inches of the battery and access all from a planned door on the boot cowl.
>The starter contactor would be only a few inches from the firewall.
>
>It seems I have read where Bob says that the starter contactor should be
>kept close to the starter. Is this location close enough or is it better
>to move it to the engine side of the firewall (about 4 to 5 inches closer
>to the starter)?
The reason for suggesting that starter contactor mount on the firewall is
that is serves as a an attach-point for the alternator's b-lead
to tie into the system's fat-wires using local b-lead circuit
protection (ANL limiter or equal). It's a logistics thing that
goes toward the performance issue of getting as many fat-wires
as possible out of the cockpit . . . especially the b-lead feeder.
Everybody who's anybody is driving in that direction. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wiring_Technique/Firewall_Ckt_Protection.jpg
. . . here you can see a variety of circuit protection for
both loads and sources that have been pulled out of the
cockpit and moved to the firewall. Mounting your starter
contactor on the firewall provides the fat-wire terminal
for bringing the battery feeder and b-lead feeder together
on the 5/16" stud . . .
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Todd Heffley <list(at)toddheffley.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter contactor location |
Leo,
The reason for the for the "close to the starter" idea is physical
cable routing.
For example, an aft battery airplane would have a Battery contactor in
the back, Heavy wire to the fire wall, Starter contactor, then heavy
wire to the Starter.
This way, the Heavy wire from the back powers various busses before it
gets to the Start Contactor.
You have the best of both worlds, Battery and both Contactors all
together, short cable runs.
Don't forget to look up Bob's Comic books on bridges from Contactor to
Contactor. Much cleaner than short Lug-to-cable-to-lug.
Did I miss anything?
todd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Todd Heffley <list(at)toddheffley.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter contactor location |
OOPS
Bob had already replied, my bad.
Todd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott Derrick <scott(at)tnstaafl.net> |
| Subject: | Home grown VMS Capacitive fuel probe converter |
It appears the VMS and EI probes output a 2Khz 5vdc frequency plus or
minus some freq depending on how much the probe is submerged. These
probes have 3 wires, I would assume one of the wires is the output, one
is a grounded reference. Is the other wire power?
I have found a single chip Freq-2-Voltage convert that only requires a
couple additional resistors, caps and diode to convert 0-10Khz freq to a
0-5 volt output.
http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1335&dDocName=en010486
Now if I can just find out how to hook up the probes... to get their
output? Anybody know?
sounds a lot cheaper than $400 for the princeton converters..
Scott
--
-
Truth : the most deadly weapon ever discovered by humanity. Capable of destroying
entire perceptual sets, cultures, and realities. Outlawed by all governments
everywhere. Possession is normally punishable by death.
Richard Childers
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gaye and Vaughn" <vaughnray(at)bvunet.net> |
I am attaching a link to a reported 15 pound 26AH battery.
Vaughn Teegarden
Europa XS mono, Rotax 914
http://www.batteryspec.com/cgi-bin/cart.cgi?action=link&product=26
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gaye and Vaughn" <vaughnray(at)bvunet.net> |
I am attaching my final(almost) main schematic. There are lots of
switches, but all up makes it run and all down kills the sparks. All
subscribers feel free to critique, not criticize, due to delicate
feelings of neophyte.
Vaughn Teegarden
Europa XS mono, Rotax 914
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 26AH battery |
On 8 Apr 2007, at 12:07, Gaye and Vaughn wrote:
> I am attaching a link to a reported 15 pound 26AH battery.
>
> http://www.batteryspec.com/cgi-bin/cart.cgi?action=link&product=26
It is interesting that while they claim 26 AH, the detailed specs
show that the voltage drops off precipitously after 60 minutes at 15
amps. Even at 2 amps, it only lasts 10 hours. I wonder how low a
current you would have to draw to get 26 AH out of it. Is this
really a 26 AH battery?
If the specs can be believed, it has similar energy density to the
popular Odyssey PC625 battery. The PC625 weighs 13.2 lb, and can
deliver 13.6a for one hour, for 1.03 AH per pound. The BAB 26-12
delivers 15a for one hour, and weighs 15 lb, for 1.0 AH per pound.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gaye and Vaughn" <vaughnray(at)bvunet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 26AH battery |
Thank you Kevin. That was what I suspected, but did not have the
intelligence to comprehend.
Vaughn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Horton" <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 26AH battery
>
>
> On 8 Apr 2007, at 12:07, Gaye and Vaughn wrote:
>
>> I am attaching a link to a reported 15 pound 26AH battery.
>>
>> http://www.batteryspec.com/cgi-bin/cart.cgi?action=link&product=26
>
> It is interesting that while they claim 26 AH, the detailed specs show
> that the voltage drops off precipitously after 60 minutes at 15 amps.
> Even at 2 amps, it only lasts 10 hours. I wonder how low a current you
> would have to draw to get 26 AH out of it. Is this really a 26 AH
> battery?
>
> If the specs can be believed, it has similar energy density to the
> popular Odyssey PC625 battery. The PC625 weighs 13.2 lb, and can deliver
> 13.6a for one hour, for 1.03 AH per pound. The BAB 26-12 delivers 15a
> for one hour, and weighs 15 lb, for 1.0 AH per pound.
>
> Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
> Ottawa, Canada
> http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net> |
Are the flaps electric? If so, do they get there power from a fused circuit
or a breaker?
Likewise, shouldn't the prop controller come from a switched breaker circuit
to aid in "resetting" it, and also positively overriding it's operation?
What type of electric prop is it?
Bevan
RV7A finishing kit
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gaye and
Vaughn
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 9:21 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Final schematic
I am attaching my final(almost) main schematic. There are lots of switches,
but all up makes it run and all down kills the sparks. All subscribers feel
free to critique, not criticize, due to delicate feelings of neophyte.
Vaughn Teegarden
Europa XS mono, Rotax 914
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg" <greg(at)itmack.com> |
| Subject: | Re: VMS capacitance fuel probes used with Dynon EMS? |
Scott I'm just finishing the PCB layout using Jim Wier's design. At this
stage I'm going to use a panel meter for the fuel gauge. Later I might make
another processor board for corrections since its not a linear output. It
will probably handle different fuels etc.
Greg
RV8
>
> Joe,
>
> What is the output of the VMS fuel probe? capacitance, frequency, voltage?
> It does have some kind of circuitry built into the end of it.
> I found an article by Jim Wier about building a capacitance fuel probe
> circuit which looks very doable.
>
> thanks for the info.
> Scott
>
>
> Joe Garner wrote:
>>
>>
>> You can get the Princeton converter from Grand Rapids. Also I think
>> Blue Mt. makes one if you want to deal with them...
>>
>> Several articles on the Internet for roll your own converters if you
>> search.
>>
>> Im putting in a GRT EIS in place of an EPI800 which uses those same
>> probes.
>>
>>
>>
>> HTH, Joe
>>
>>
>> Scott Derrick wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I have Vision Microsystems capacitance fuel probes installed in my
>>> Velocity. I would like to use them with Dynon's EMS which requires a
>>> 0-5 volt output from the fuel probes. I don't know if the Vision probes
>>> output frequency, capacitance or voltage. Dynon didn't seem to know
>>> either.
>>> Vision is going through extreme changes since bought by JPI, tech
>>> support is nil, I've been waiting for a new Vision VM1000C since last
>>> august and have given up waiting.
>>>
>>> Any help in using these VMS fuel probes with the Dynon unit would be
>>> greatly appreciated. The probes worked fine for 450 hours with a VM1000
>>> unit,
>>>
>>> I have heard that Princeton Electronics made capacitance fuel probe
>>> converters but teh only number I have for them( 616-281-5193) is
>>> disconnected.
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
>
> -
> I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much
> liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
>
> Thomas Jefferson to Archibald Stuart, 1791. ME 8:276
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott Derrick <scott(at)tnstaafl.net> |
| Subject: | Re: VMS capacitance fuel probes used with Dynon |
EMS?
Greg,
Are you using EI or VMS probes or building your own?
Scott
Greg wrote:
>
> Scott I'm just finishing the PCB layout using Jim Wier's design. At
> this stage I'm going to use a panel meter for the fuel gauge. Later I
> might make another processor board for corrections since its not a
> linear output. It will probably handle different fuels etc.
>
> Greg
> RV8
>
>>
>> Joe,
>>
>> What is the output of the VMS fuel probe? capacitance, frequency,
>> voltage? It does have some kind of circuitry built into the end of it.
>> I found an article by Jim Wier about building a capacitance fuel
>> probe circuit which looks very doable.
>>
>> thanks for the info.
>> Scott
>>
>>
>> Joe Garner wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> You can get the Princeton converter from Grand Rapids. Also I think
>>> Blue Mt. makes one if you want to deal with them...
>>>
>>> Several articles on the Internet for roll your own converters if you
>>> search.
>>>
>>> Im putting in a GRT EIS in place of an EPI800 which uses those same
>>> probes.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> HTH, Joe
>>>
>>>
>>> Scott Derrick wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I have Vision Microsystems capacitance fuel probes installed in my
>>>> Velocity. I would like to use them with Dynon's EMS which requires a
>>>> 0-5 volt output from the fuel probes. I don't know if the Vision
>>>> probes
>>>> output frequency, capacitance or voltage. Dynon didn't seem to know
>>>> either.
>>>> Vision is going through extreme changes since bought by JPI, tech
>>>> support is nil, I've been waiting for a new Vision VM1000C since last
>>>> august and have given up waiting.
>>>>
>>>> Any help in using these VMS fuel probes with the Dynon unit would be
>>>> greatly appreciated. The probes worked fine for 450 hours with a
>>>> VM1000
>>>> unit,
>>>>
>>>> I have heard that Princeton Electronics made capacitance fuel probe
>>>> converters but teh only number I have for them( 616-281-5193) is
>>>> disconnected.
>>>>
>>>> thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> -
>> I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much
>> liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
>>
>> Thomas Jefferson to Archibald Stuart, 1791. ME 8:276
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
-
The only security of all is in a free press. The force of public opinion cannot
be resisted when permitted freely to be expressed. The agitation it produces
must be submitted to. It is necessary, to keep the waters pure.
Thomas Jefferson to Lafayette, 1823. ME 15:491
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott Derrick <scott(at)tnstaafl.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Home grown VMS Capacitive fuel probe converter |
I just found out from the BMA forum archives:
"QUOTE"
Indeed, the Probes are a resistance/capacitance circuit that yields a
frequency that varies with the fuel changing the capacitance. When the
probe is hooked to the computer the red is +5v, the black is ground and
the white is the square wave frequency output back to the computer. When
you calibrate your tanks, you will supply frequencies to VM and they
will program the ROM that converts frequencies to gallons.
"UNQUOTE"
So a 5 volt supply is needed to provide voltage to the probes on the red
wire and the 5vdc square wave freq is produced on the white wire...
Freq apx 4Khz empty and 2Khz full.
I'll need to drag my scope down to the hanger to verify this.
I wonder if a current limiter is built into the probe?
Scott
Scott Derrick wrote:
>
>
> It appears the VMS and EI probes output a 2Khz 5vdc frequency plus or
> minus some freq depending on how much the probe is submerged. These
> probes have 3 wires, I would assume one of the wires is the output,
> one is a grounded reference. Is the other wire power?
> I have found a single chip Freq-2-Voltage convert that only requires a
> couple additional resistors, caps and diode to convert 0-10Khz freq to
> a 0-5 volt output.
> http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1335&dDocName=en010486
>
>
> Now if I can just find out how to hook up the probes... to get their
> output? Anybody know?
>
> sounds a lot cheaper than $400 for the princeton converters..
>
> Scott
>
--
-
The only security of all is in a free press. The force of public opinion cannot
be resisted when permitted freely to be expressed. The agitation it produces
must be submitted to. It is necessary, to keep the waters pure.
Thomas Jefferson to Lafayette, 1823. ME 15:491
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg" <greg(at)itmack.com> |
| Subject: | Re: VMS capacitance fuel probes used with Dynon |
EMS?
Neither, Vans sells a kit that fits into their fuel tanks. If I new they
were this much trouble before hand I would have gone the old fashion route.
Greg
>
>
> Greg,
>
> Are you using EI or VMS probes or building your own?
>
> Scott
>
> Greg wrote:
>>
>> Scott I'm just finishing the PCB layout using Jim Wier's design. At this
>> stage I'm going to use a panel meter for the fuel gauge. Later I might
>> make another processor board for corrections since its not a linear
>> output. It will probably handle different fuels etc.
>>
>> Greg
>> RV8
>>
>>>
>>> Joe,
>>>
>>> What is the output of the VMS fuel probe? capacitance, frequency,
>>> voltage? It does have some kind of circuitry built into the end of it.
>>> I found an article by Jim Wier about building a capacitance fuel probe
>>> circuit which looks very doable.
>>>
>>> thanks for the info.
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>
>>> Joe Garner wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You can get the Princeton converter from Grand Rapids. Also I think
>>>> Blue Mt. makes one if you want to deal with them...
>>>>
>>>> Several articles on the Internet for roll your own converters if you
>>>> search.
>>>>
>>>> Im putting in a GRT EIS in place of an EPI800 which uses those same
>>>> probes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> HTH, Joe
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Scott Derrick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have Vision Microsystems capacitance fuel probes installed in my
>>>>> Velocity. I would like to use them with Dynon's EMS which requires a
>>>>> 0-5 volt output from the fuel probes. I don't know if the Vision
>>>>> probes
>>>>> output frequency, capacitance or voltage. Dynon didn't seem to know
>>>>> either.
>>>>> Vision is going through extreme changes since bought by JPI, tech
>>>>> support is nil, I've been waiting for a new Vision VM1000C since last
>>>>> august and have given up waiting.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any help in using these VMS fuel probes with the Dynon unit would be
>>>>> greatly appreciated. The probes worked fine for 450 hours with a
>>>>> VM1000
>>>>> unit,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have heard that Princeton Electronics made capacitance fuel probe
>>>>> converters but teh only number I have for them( 616-281-5193) is
>>>>> disconnected.
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Scott
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> -
>>> I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much
>>> liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
>>>
>>> Thomas Jefferson to Archibald Stuart, 1791. ME 8:276
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
>
> -
> The only security of all is in a free press. The force of public
> opinion cannot be resisted when permitted freely to be expressed. The
> agitation it produces must be submitted to. It is necessary, to keep the
> waters pure.
>
> Thomas Jefferson to Lafayette, 1823. ME 15:491
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter contactor location |
>
>OOPS
>
>Bob had already replied, my bad.
NOT AT ALL my friend. It's not uncommon that a question
here on the list generates more than one answer. Many times
the answers are identical, but sometimes just similar or
even an alternative. No matter how what you answer or
whether it's repetitive, the act of formulating a
collection of ideas into cogent words is a tool of
the teacher. If you simply parrot what I or anyone
else offers then you're demonstrating a level of
knowledge but your ability to teach the concept from
a position of understanding is not demonstrated.
When you offer words that describe a collection of
simple-ideas crafted into a recipe for success that
you understand, then sir you are honing your skills
as a teacher and that is appropriate any time.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Seminar in West Bend, WI |
Dr. Dee and are going to visit EAA Chapter 1158 in West
Bend, Wisconsin next month for a weekend of good conversation
and to deliver the third in our series of beta-seminars
that's moving rapidly into the electronic presentations
philosophies. We used to carry a lot of hands-on stuff on these
trips but TSA is making it increasingly difficult.
The alternative is to move the presentations to a "thumb-drive"
and expand the scope of visuals utilized to replace the loss
of hardware. One advantage of the new format is that everyone
can take a copy of the presentation home with them. This
will reduce the need to take notes and offer attendees an
opportunity to share what they've learned with folks back
at their own chapters.
We'll invite the curious and motivated to consider joining
us in what promises to be an exemplary meeting facility.
I'm hearing some really amazing descriptions of this venue.
Join us if you can at:
http://aeroelectric.com/seminars/WestBend.html
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gaye and Vaughn" <vaughnray(at)bvunet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Final schematic |
Brevan
Thanks for the comments. The flaps and monowheel are manually controlled
with one lever. I will contact Airmaster to see if they recommend a
switch for the prop. They told me that if it quit working, it stayed in
the last postion that it was in before it failed. I did not think to ask
if I needed an on/off switch. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
Vaughn Teegarden
Europa XS mono, Rotax 914
----- Original Message -----
From: B Tomm
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 3:53 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Final schematic
Are the flaps electric? If so, do they get there power from a fused
circuit or a breaker?
Likewise, shouldn't the prop controller come from a switched breaker
circuit to aid in "resetting" it, and also positively overriding it's
operation? What type of electric prop is it?
Bevan
RV7A finishing kit
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gaye
and Vaughn
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 9:21 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Final schematic
I am attaching my final(almost) main schematic. There are lots of
switches, but all up makes it run and all down kills the sparks. All
subscribers feel free to critique, not criticize, due to delicate
feelings of neophyte.
Vaughn Teegarden
Europa XS mono, Rotax 914
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Putney <billp(at)wwpc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: aux music input quiet on flightcom 403mc |
I had this same problem with my intercom. The basic problem is that the
MP3 player has headphone outputs that are low impedance. That is to say
low voltage but high current output. The intercom input is high
impedance and wants a little higher voltage. I fixed the problem by
making a little box with 2 Radio Shack speaker to line transformers in
it (one for left and one for right) and a pair of 1/8" stereo jacks. If
I remember correctly the transformers were like 8 ohms on one side and
2000 ohms on the other side. That effectively gives a 1:250 increase in
volume level to the intercom.
I ruined an MP3 player running it at 100% volume and it still wasn't
loud enough before I built this box. Now I never run above half volume.
The best thing is that the transformer box doesn't need batteries and
the battery in the MP3 player lasts a lot longer because it's not
working so hard.
I think if you need a mono output to your intercom, you could either mix
the high impedance outputs of the transformers with a couple of 1K
resistors or mix the inputs with a couple of 10 ohm resistors and then
take that and put it through a single transformer.
- Bill
Ron Quillin wrote:
> A couple of comments if I may. First I have to agree with Bob,
> directly connecting two outputs to one another is not a good idea, at
> all, and can cause damage to the output circuit of the source device.
> 47 ohms would work, but at a minimum use a value equal to the
> impedance (resistance) of the earphone/speaker normally connected; say
> 10 ohms minimum. Also, the 10 ohm 10uF combination will limit low
> frequencies below ~1600Hz; Ok if you don't want much low end, but...
>
> Attached is a pdf you may want to try. Keep the rest as you had it if
> it seems to work well. This one will sum (mix) the L & R signals
> without nuking the mp3 player's output, should give you cleaner audio
> as well. If you don't like the 10/100 ohm pair, go to 100/1k instead.
> Also with this combination the LF will be extended down to about
> 160Hz.
>
> Ron Q.
> old audio engineer.
>
>> > Anyway, I'm not
>> > an electrical engineer (I'm mechanical) so I am really not all that
>> great
>> > at designing circuits, but this one works for me. I thought I would
>> post
>> > it in case anybody want to use it as a starting point for their own
>> amp.
>> >
>> >http://www.geocities.com/bryanflood2001/AudioAmpfor403MC.bmp
>>
>> You might want to consider a couple of resistors in
>> series with each of the stereo outputs before you
>> bring them together as a monophonic mix. Output
>> signals from the two channels are not identical
>> and some degradation of audio will occur when the
>> outputs "load" each other as described in the chapter
>> on audio systems. Something on the order of 47 ohms
>> per side is suggested.
>>
>> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Vs" <dsvs(at)ca.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Dimmer for 5 volt lights |
I am looking gor a recopmendation on purchase of a dimmer system for 5 volt
panel lights. My AC has a 14 volt system and the people who are building an
ecgraved panel for me recomended 5 volt lights vs 14 volt because they last
considerably longer.So, does anyone know of a good dimmer with a masx output
of 5 volts with 14 volts in? Thanks. Don
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Roger Cole <rcole927(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Final schematic |
Vaughn,
My only suggestion would be to make a space on the panel between the
four groups of switches (i.e/, DC Power, Engine, Avionics, and
Lights). That way you will be able to find the switch that you want
by feel in darkness, turbulence, or whatever.
Roger Cole
Murphy Elite (building wings)
On Apr 8, 2007, at 11:20 AM, Gaye and Vaughn wrote:
> I am attaching my final(almost) main schematic. There are lots of
> switches, but all up makes it run and all down kills the sparks.
> All subscribers feel free to critique, not criticize, due to
> delicate feelings of neophyte.
>
> Vaughn Teegarden
> Europa XS mono, Rotax 914
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sarg314 <sarg314(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Final schematic |
I strongly second roger's observation. A row of a dozen identical
toggle switches spaced exactly evenly is hard to use - you'll find
yourself trying to read the little labels in flight. Mine are in groups
of 2 or 3 and not even all in a row at the bottom of the panel. It
makes it easy to find the switch you want without looking or even in the
dark. I recall an article about panel design in Kit Planes a few years
ago that made this same point.
Roger Cole wrote:
> Vaughn,
> My only suggestion would be to make a space on the panel between the
> four groups of switches (i.e/, DC Power, Engine, Avionics, and
> Lights). That way you will be able to find the switch that you want
> by feel in darkness, turbulence, or whatever.
> Roger Cole
Tom Sargent, RV-6A, wiring.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmer for 5 volt lights |
>
>I am looking gor a recopmendation on purchase of a dimmer system for 5 volt
>panel lights. My AC has a 14 volt system and the people who are building an
>ecgraved panel for me recomended 5 volt lights vs 14 volt because they last
>considerably longer.So, does anyone know of a good dimmer with a masx output
>of 5 volts with 14 volts in? Thanks. Don
It just so happens that I'm building one for a customer. Details
are not finalized yet but it looks like the critter will be rated
at 0.7 to 5.0 volts output at up to 4A. It will be packaged in
the same enclosure as shown on page 2 of
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf
I'll know more in about a week. Prototyping parts are expected
here later this week but I won't be able to play with them
until next week.
I think the price will be something on the order of $55
and will include the externally mounted dimmer control
pot.
The part number will be AEC9033-1.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Vs" <dsvs(at)ca.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Dimmer for 5 volt lights |
Bob,
I will take one. I need to know the size hole that the pot will require in
the panel so that I can proceed with that part of the project. If you can
please send me that information and please let me know when the dimmer is
available. Thanks. Don
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dimmer for 5 volt lights
>
>I am looking gor a recopmendation on purchase of a dimmer system for 5 volt
>panel lights. My AC has a 14 volt system and the people who are building
an
>ecgraved panel for me recomended 5 volt lights vs 14 volt because they last
>considerably longer.So, does anyone know of a good dimmer with a masx
output
>of 5 volts with 14 volts in? Thanks. Don
It just so happens that I'm building one for a customer. Details
are not finalized yet but it looks like the critter will be rated
at 0.7 to 5.0 volts output at up to 4A. It will be packaged in
the same enclosure as shown on page 2 of
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf
I'll know more in about a week. Prototyping parts are expected
here later this week but I won't be able to play with them
until next week.
I think the price will be something on the order of $55
and will include the externally mounted dimmer control
pot.
The part number will be AEC9033-1.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dimmer for 5 volt lights |
| From: | Ron Quillin <rjquillin(at)gmail.com> |
At 22:40 4/9/2007, you wrote:
>I think the price will be something on the order of $55
> and will include the externally mounted dimmer control
> pot.
>
> The part number will be AEC9033-1.
>
> Bob . . .
Any chance you could make it track an existing 14V dimmer circuit as an option?
Ron Q.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Gregory" <m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com> |
Vaughn,
Because you are running a Rotax 914, which has no mechanical fuel pump, you
must have at least one of your two electric pumps working to avoid a silent
experience in flight that would probably upset Gaye's delicate feelings as
well as yours. I therefore consider it unwise to feed both pumps from your
battery bus because a single failure (e.g. of the 12 awg feed to that bus)
could render both pumps inoperative. I suggest one pump should be fed from
a supply that can receive power from either alternator, such as the
endurance bus.
You may wish to consider your overvoltage protection relay for the Rotax
alternator circuit operating to open the AC voltage input that goes to the
regulator G terminals (i.e. break into one of the yellow leads) as suggested
in the Z 16 schematic. Bob now recommends this in preference to interrupting
the output of the regulator.
Best regards
Mike
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gaye and
Vaughn
Sent: 08 April 2007 17:21
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Final schematic
I am attaching my final(almost) main schematic. There are lots of switches,
but all up makes it run and all down kills the sparks. All subscribers feel
free to critique, not criticize, due to delicate feelings of neophyte.
Vaughn Teegarden
Europa XS mono, Rotax 914
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmer for 5 volt lights |
>
>At 22:40 4/9/2007, you wrote:
>>I think the price will be something on the order of $55
>> and will include the externally mounted dimmer control
>> pot.
>>
>> The part number will be AEC9033-1.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>
>Any chance you could make it track an existing 14V dimmer circuit as an
>option?
>
>Ron Q.
>
>
>--
>10:59 PM
>
>
>-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmer for 5 volt lights |
>
>At 22:40 4/9/2007, you wrote:
>>I think the price will be something on the order of $55
>> and will include the externally mounted dimmer control
>> pot.
>>
>> The part number will be AEC9033-1.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>
>Any chance you could make it track an existing 14V dimmer circuit as an
>option?
>
>Ron Q.
Yeah, that can be done but given that 5v lighting (as
is most incandescent panel lighting) is going the way
of the buggy whip, there's virtually no way I would
recover the cost of development. I don't expect to sell
more than a half dozen of the 9033-1 as a lighting dimmer.
The AEC9033-2 will be a power supply to eliminate batteries
in a variety of hand-held devices that run from 2 or 3
cells. I might sell a few more of those.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmer for 5 volt lights |
Why 5 volts? Sure, in theory the filaments are thicker and more
reliable in high vibration situations but is it meaningful for 12 volt
vehicles. Apparently it is already increasing complexity and costs.
How many bulbs here? Would it make sense to put a couple of strings of 3
in series for 14.4 volts operation? Can they be replaced with 12 volt
bulbs? LED's?
Ken
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> At 22:40 4/9/2007, you wrote:
>>
>>> I think the price will be something on the order of $55
>>> and will include the externally mounted dimmer control
>>> pot.
>>>
>>> The part number will be AEC9033-1.
>>>
>>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>> Any chance you could make it track an existing 14V dimmer circuit as
>> an option?
>>
>> Ron Q.
>
>
> Yeah, that can be done but given that 5v lighting (as
> is most incandescent panel lighting) is going the way
> of the buggy whip, there's virtually no way I would
> recover the cost of development. I don't expect to sell
> more than a half dozen of the 9033-1 as a lighting dimmer.
>
> The AEC9033-2 will be a power supply to eliminate batteries
> in a variety of hand-held devices that run from 2 or 3
> cells. I might sell a few more of those.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dimmer for 5 volt lights |
| From: | "Glaeser, Dennis A" <dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com> |
Eric Jones sells a dimmer that can be configured for whatever min and
max voltage range you desire:
http://www.periheliondesign.com/egpavr.htm
Dennis Glaeser
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------
From: Don Vs
Date: Mon Apr 09 - 6:17 PM
I am looking gor a recopmendation on purchase of a dimmer system for 5
volt
panel lights. My AC has a 14 volt system and the people who are
building an
ecgraved panel for me recomended 5 volt lights vs 14 volt because they
last
considerably longer.So, does anyone know of a good dimmer with a masx
output
of 5 volts with 14 volts in? Thanks. Don
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: aux music input quiet on flightcom 403mc |
| From: | Ron Quillin <rjquillin(at)gmail.com> |
At 07:30 4/9/2007, you wrote:
>I think if you need a mono output to your intercom, you could either
>mix the high impedance outputs of the transformers with a couple of
>1K resistors or mix the inputs with a couple of 10 ohm resistors and
>then take that and put it through a single transformer.
>
>- Bill
Transformers are an excellent solution to do some impedance matching
and increase the signal voltage available to the intercom and break a
possible grounding problem between the source device, if powered by
ships' power, that at times causes unwanted noise in audio systems,
however a few words of caution and some thoughts.
For reference, from the 603mc IM the aux input Z is 620 ohms, let's
call it 600 and keep it simple.
While the transformer will break any DC connection, an AC connection
remains, and source and load resistances (impedances) from the input
to output, or vice versa, are still a function of the turns
ratio. Simply put, given a transformer with a 1:1 TURNS ratio
connected to a 600 ohm output load, what ever it is connected to the
input will see that 600 ohm load; 10k on the load, the input sees
10k. It's called a reflected load. The voltage and impedance ratios
are only the same with a 1:1 transformer. While the voltage change
is equal to the turns ratio, the impedance difference is the square
of the turns ratio, or the turns ratio is the square-root of the
impedance ratio if that's what you have to work with.
For that 8 ohm to 2000 ohm the Z ratio is 250, or 1:250, but the
turns ratio is just 1:15.8; assuming an ideal transformer. I'll call
it 1:16 for a real world value. Still a good increase in voltage,
but we still have to consider reflected load impedance. That 2000
ohm secondary is loaded by a 600 ohm input. Divide that load
resistance by 250, the Z ratio, and the device driving the
transformer sees a very low 2.4 ohms.
That mp3 player would likely be most unhappy.
On to your solutions proposed above. Hopefully I've correctly
understood what you were saying and put it to paper. Only two sheets
this time. Apologies for that entire data sheet before, that was
not my intent at all !
Sheet one shows what happens with the first solution. Load Z should
be fine at ~42 ohms, but the actual output voltage to the aux input
from a single channel is only 90% of what the mp3 player puts out due
to the loss in the resistive combining network. The actual output
would add L & R algebraically, but would not double unless both
channels had exactly the same program material, a mono source.
Sheet two is what I think is your second suggestion. Here the load Z
an mp3 output channel would 'see' is ~12.4 ohms. Depending on the
device that may be just fine if still a tad low. The overall voltage
'gain' is again the product of the transformer gain, the turns ratio,
16, and the loss from the 10 ohm input resistors looking into that
2.4 ohm reflected load; only 19% of the signal gets through. So the
overall voltage gain, from the output of the mp3 to the aux input of
the 403 is a bit over 3. That's good, but likely not really enough.
For both of these examples we have the generalized case of the
voltage 'gain' of the transformer turns ratio (~16) times the 'loss'
of the [resistor - transformer] combining network ( 0.0566 or 0.1935)
working into the 600 ohm input load of the 403. Were the input-Z of
the 603 higher some additional voltage gain from the transformer
would be easier to achieve, but then other issues of mixing outputs
crop back in.
The active summing amplifier solution, for practical purposes,
eliminates any of those problems since the inverting input of the
op-amp is essentially at ground and neither output channel sees or
interacts with the other. One down side is the inversion of absolute
signal polarity for both left and right channels. Using a
combination of both two transformers and the active summing both the
inversion could be corrected, the mp3 output could be de-loaded a bit
more to keep it happier, and you would have the gain of the amp as
well. Use circuit one and take the junction of the two 10k resistors
to the inverting input pin #2. The mp3 now sees a very nice 40 ohm
load, there is no channel to channel output loading or crosstalk
problems. Don't skimp on the transformer, use something good for a
couple hundred mW.
There just isn't a really good inexpensive passive solution for
mixing two signal sources (L & R) and getting a good amount voltage
gain at the same time, at least not that immediately comes to mind,
what I have left that is.
Ron Q.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmer for 5 volt lights |
>
>
>Eric Jones sells a dimmer that can be configured for whatever min and
>max voltage range you desire:
>http://www.periheliondesign.com/egpavr.htm
This product uses the LM317 linear adjustable regulator
to drop the incoming voltage to the desired level and hold
it by means of a feedback loops that provides active
regulation. When set up to provide say 5 volts at 1 amp
of output it must dispose of 9 volts x 1 amp or 9 watts
of power that will manifest itself as heating in the
LM317.
The heat sink provided for this device is not adequate to
shed 9w of heat and keep the LM317 happy. The 1.5A
rating of this product depends on a max bright
load of 1.5A falling to some more tolerable value as
the brightness is turned down. There's a figure in the
'Connection that speaks to characteristics of incandescent
lamps. It shows that at 50% of rated voltage, an incandescent
lamp still draws about 70% of rated current. So turning intensity
down to 7 volts on our 1.5A hypothetical offers a load
of 1.05 Amps. The 7 volt drop at 1.05 amps still asks
the heatsink to cool the LM317 with a 7.2 watt heat
rejection task. It's still too small.
5 Volt, long lived imbedded lamps tend to have beefy filaments . . . the
lamps are generally rated at 100 mA or more each. It takes
only 10 lamps in the string to provide a 1A load to a lighting
dimmer.
The pure linear dimmers such as the one cited above and
those offered by B&C are not well suited for controlling
5v lighting systems because of their inefficiencies. Note
also that the B&C 1.5A regulator comes with an LM317
chip . . . and it's on a much bigger heatsink to insure
regulator performance at full rated current at any output
voltage setting and max expected local ambient temperature.
The AEC9033 series devices are switchmode regulators that
offer about 80% minimum efficiency over the full range of
voltage settings and loads. This means that with the output
set for say 5V on a 4A load (20 Watts out) the heat rejected
by the assembly is under 5 watts.
Depending on heat rejection studies at the prototype stage
-AND- radio noise studies the output of the 9033 series
devices may have to be de-rated . . . but in no case do
I expect it to be less than 2.5 amps.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimmer for 5 volt lights |
>
>Why 5 volts? Sure, in theory the filaments are thicker and more reliable
>in high vibration situations but is it meaningful for 12 volt vehicles.
>Apparently it is already increasing complexity and costs.
>
>How many bulbs here? Would it make sense to put a couple of strings of 3
>in series for 14.4 volts operation? Can they be replaced with 12 volt
>bulbs? LED's?
>
>Ken
Imbedded lamps in back lit panels for aircraft use
wire lead devices held in place with epoxy. VERY
difficult to change out. The practice of choice for
this technology when it was new (about 1965) was
to use the longest life lamps we could put our hands
on. See:
http://tinyurl.com/22268w
Here's an excerpt from the lamps listing in Allied's
catalog. Note the style 13 and 15 lamps are all small,
wire leaded devices. Note the exemplary rated lives
for some of these lamps . . . 60,000 hours!!!
Today, I'd sure be looking for ways to use leds in
this application, check out the price of those lamps.
The 5v imbedded technology was a really whoopy-do thing
about 25 years ago and there are still folks who make
a good living fabricating spares for thousands of aircraft
that use it. I'd sure think twice before I used it in
a new design.
Bob. . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gaye and Vaughn" <vaughnray(at)bvunet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Final schematic |
Thanks Roger,
I can do that by moving my Cabin Light switch overhead next to the
light. That will give me enough space. I like that idea.
Vaughn
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Cole
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Final schematic
Vaughn,
My only suggestion would be to make a space on the panel between the
four groups of switches (i.e/, DC Power, Engine, Avionics, and Lights).
That way you will be able to find the switch that you want by feel in
darkness, turbulence, or whatever.
Roger Cole
Murphy Elite (building wings)
On Apr 8, 2007, at 11:20 AM, Gaye and Vaughn wrote:
I am attaching my final(almost) main schematic. There are lots of
switches, but all up makes it run and all down kills the sparks. All
subscribers feel free to critique, not criticize, due to delicate
feelings of neophyte.
Vaughn Teegarden
Europa XS mono, Rotax 914
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gaye and Vaughn" <vaughnray(at)bvunet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Final schematic |
Thanks Mike,
I moved the secondary pump over to the endurance bus, which will be
powered by the Rotax internal alternator with all switches off.
I thought Bob interrupted the "C" connection on the Ducati regulator,
which Lockwood says not to do. They insist that R, B, and C be connected
so that they can't be one without the other. I wouldn't go against their
recommendations for warranty reasons.
Vaughn
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Gregory
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 6:51 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Final schematic
Vaughn,
Because you are running a Rotax 914, which has no mechanical fuel
pump, you must have at least one of your two electric pumps working to
avoid a silent experience in flight that would probably upset Gaye's
delicate feelings as well as yours. I therefore consider it unwise to
feed both pumps from your battery bus because a single failure (e.g. of
the 12 awg feed to that bus) could render both pumps inoperative. I
suggest one pump should be fed from a supply that can receive power from
either alternator, such as the endurance bus.
You may wish to consider your overvoltage protection relay for the
Rotax alternator circuit operating to open the AC voltage input that
goes to the regulator G terminals (i.e. break into one of the yellow
leads) as suggested in the Z 16 schematic. Bob now recommends this in
preference to interrupting the output of the regulator.
Best regards
Mike
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gaye
and Vaughn
Sent: 08 April 2007 17:21
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Final schematic
I am attaching my final(almost) main schematic. There are lots of
switches, but all up makes it run and all down kills the sparks. All
subscribers feel free to critique, not criticize, due to delicate
feelings of neophyte.
Vaughn Teegarden
Europa XS mono, Rotax 914
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rd2(at)evenlink.com |
Hello listers,
Can anyone recommend a wide angle, high intensity, red blinking LED,
suitable for panel mount to be used for low oil pressure alarm? LEDs are
plentiful, but it doesn't seem so easy to match all criteria.
Thanks
Rumen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Gregory" <m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com> |
Vaughn,
In Bob's earlier Z 7 schematic for the Rotax-type dynamo/alternator, the
voltage regulator B and R were joined together at the capacitor and then to
the battery via the OV relay contacts. The voltage regulator C terminal was
connected to the battery via the alternator/battery master switch, and
provided the battery reference voltage to the regulator. Rotax subsequently
changed their circuit recommendation so that the B, R. and C terminals were
all connected together, and Bob developed Z 16, which has the overvoltage
relay killing the input to the regulator rather than its output. This is a
safer way to react to an overvoltage output from the regulator, because
without any input its voltage output is automatically killed and also it
cannot overheat.
Please make sure that in your physical layout you provide a good cooling air
flow for the Ducati regulator, because a number of people have reported
problems with short life if this gets too hot in service.
Best regards
Mike
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gaye and
Vaughn
Sent: 10 April 2007 20:30
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Final schematic
Thanks Mike,
I moved the secondary pump over to the endurance bus, which will be powered
by the Rotax internal alternator with all switches off.
I thought Bob interrupted the "C" connection on the Ducati regulator, which
Lockwood says not to do. They insist that R, B, and C be connected so that
they can't be one without the other. I wouldn't go against their
recommendations for warranty reasons.
Vaughn
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike <mailto:m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com> Gregory
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 6:51 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Final schematic
Vaughn,
Because you are running a Rotax 914, which has no mechanical fuel pump, you
must have at least one of your two electric pumps working to avoid a silent
experience in flight that would probably upset Gaye's delicate feelings as
well as yours. I therefore consider it unwise to feed both pumps from your
battery bus because a single failure (e.g. of the 12 awg feed to that bus)
could render both pumps inoperative. I suggest one pump should be fed from
a supply that can receive power from either alternator, such as the
endurance bus.
You may wish to consider your overvoltage protection relay for the Rotax
alternator circuit operating to open the AC voltage input that goes to the
regulator G terminals (i.e. break into one of the yellow leads) as suggested
in the Z 16 schematic. Bob now recommends this in preference to interrupting
the output of the regulator.
Best regards
Mike
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gaye and
Vaughn
Sent: 08 April 2007 17:21
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Final schematic
I am attaching my final(almost) main schematic. There are lots of switches,
but all up makes it run and all down kills the sparks. All subscribers feel
free to critique, not criticize, due to delicate feelings of neophyte.
Vaughn Teegarden
Europa XS mono, Rotax 914
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bret Smith" <smithhb(at)tds.net> |
Try this...
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId 62553&cp=&sr=1&origk
w=red+led&kw=red+led&parentPage=search
Bret Smith
RV-9A (91314)
Mineral Bluff, GA
www.FlightInnovations.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
rd2(at)evenlink.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 6:32 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: blinking LED
Hello listers,
Can anyone recommend a wide angle, high intensity, red blinking LED,
suitable for panel mount to be used for low oil pressure alarm? LEDs are
plentiful, but it doesn't seem so easy to match all criteria.
Thanks
Rumen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>Try this...
>http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId 62553&cp=&sr=1&origk
>w=red+led&kw=red+led&parentPage=search
>
>
>Bret Smith
>RV-9A (91314)
>Mineral Bluff, GA
>www.FlightInnovations.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>rd2(at)evenlink.com
>Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 6:32 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: blinking LED
>
>
>Hello listers,
>
>Can anyone recommend a wide angle, high intensity, red blinking LED,
>suitable for panel mount to be used for low oil pressure alarm? LEDs are
>plentiful, but it doesn't seem so easy to match all criteria.
You can get high intensity and you can get blink but not
both in any components I've seen. Soooooo . . . get a "blinker"
of any color and hook it in series with a high intensity red
and mount the blinker out of sight someplace except on the
panel.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: blinking LED |
>
>Thanks for the link, Brett.
>
>Bob, thanks a lot for the tip.
>
>I wasn't aware that a blinking led can make another one blink when in
>series, if that is what you mean. If so - problem solved.
It works. I have two product designs for customers
that do this very thing.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter contactor location |
>
>Thanks Bob and Todd for your sage advice on the "fat" wires and locating
>my starter contactor. After reviewing what I had planned regarding the
>contactor, I found that I may have had a misplaced electron (or maybe I
>was short a few) in my brain housing group [Embarassed] I must also admit
>that I'm a bit bummed about the AeroElectric list. Bummed because I spent
>a lot of time over the last several months trying to figure out my new
>electrical system and most all of the answers were already here for the
>asking. I just didn't get here soon enough. Guess I should thank someone
>at B & C for the tip. Don't go away because I'm sure that more answers
>will be needed in the future. Thanks again.
You're most welcome sir. That's what the List is
here for.
I did a presentation for the local PAMA chapter of
avionics and electrical technicians here I Wichita
last night. From the kinds of questions fielded during
and after the talk, I thought many of those folks would
benefit from the networking function that the List serves
for tapping the collective gray matter of numerous folks.
I described List functions to them and invited them
to join in and see if they can perceive any benefits.
We may be getting some new members from "the dark side"
of general aviation.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Vs" <dsvs(at)ca.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Dimmer for 5 volt lights |
Bob,
Is it possible to control multiple copies of this dimmer from the same pot?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dimmer for 5 volt lights
>
>I am looking gor a recopmendation on purchase of a dimmer system for 5 volt
>panel lights. My AC has a 14 volt system and the people who are building
an
>ecgraved panel for me recomended 5 volt lights vs 14 volt because they last
>considerably longer.So, does anyone know of a good dimmer with a masx
output
>of 5 volts with 14 volts in? Thanks. Don
It just so happens that I'm building one for a customer. Details
are not finalized yet but it looks like the critter will be rated
at 0.7 to 5.0 volts output at up to 4A. It will be packaged in
the same enclosure as shown on page 2 of
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf
I'll know more in about a week. Prototyping parts are expected
here later this week but I won't be able to play with them
until next week.
I think the price will be something on the order of $55
and will include the externally mounted dimmer control
pot.
The part number will be AEC9033-1.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Dimmer for 5 volt lights |
>
>Bob,
>Is it possible to control multiple copies of this dimmer from the same pot?
I'd have to think about that a bit. I think so but I'll need
to noodle through the physics of the control loop. Why multiples
instead of one BIG one?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Don Vs" <dsvs(at)ca.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Dimmer for 5 volt lights |
I might need more amp capability, so I thought multiple dimmers would be the
way to go, Are you going to make this dimmer available with a higher
capability? or did I not catch your meaning of a "one big one"?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 7:40 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Dimmer for 5 volt lights
>
>Bob,
>Is it possible to control multiple copies of this dimmer from the same pot?
I'd have to think about that a bit. I think so but I'll need
to noodle through the physics of the control loop. Why multiples
instead of one BIG one?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | AeroElectric.com is in new digs . . . |
As of yesterday, we've moved the website to Matt Dralle's
servers in Livermore, CA. For the past 6 or 7 years, I've
shared a single server with a friend of mine at
http://www.stirlingengine.com/
We wore out one machine and bought a new one about two
years ago. Now the latest one needs attention but Brent
has moved out of San Diego and the young fellow we hired
as our hardware/software guy has graduated from college
and costs more than we can afford. Soooo while the
personally owned server stood us well for some time,
it takes more time and hands-on attention which
has become impossible since we both live so far away
from the server's physical location.
So, I've gotten out of the server business and moved
the 'Connection to Matt's machines. I think the transfer
went very smoothly and we now have a secure order form
as well. However, if anyone notices some broken links
or denied permissions for reaching any links, I'd
like to get a heads up so I can go fix them. Thanks!
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | What about an electronic distribution panel? |
I am building a Zenith 701 with a Rotax 912ULS engine and would like to have
opinions about using a commercial panel power distribution system like EXP
Bus Products' EXP2V (see
<http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/expbus.php>
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/expbus.php) . My plane will
have the normal electrical stuff: landing lights, radios, intercom, Dynon
glass cockpit instruments, nav and strobe lights, VHF and Mode C radios, an
EZ single axis autopilot, and a few lighted steam gauges.
I know aeroelectric says keep it simple and use switches rather than
breakers, but I don't have a lot of room left on my panel and this "box"
looks easy to install and flashes indication that a breaker has been tripped
(with an indicator module option).
Do you know if this device provides for an essential buss or will isolates a
bad generator? Is this overkill? Are there specific up or downsides I need
to know about? Is it a good way to go?
Thanks for the advice,
Les
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: What about an electronic distribution panel? |
>I am building a Zenith 701 with a Rotax 912ULS engine and would like to
>have opinions about using a commercial panel power distribution system
>like EXP Bus Products EXP2V (see
><http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/expbus.php>http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/expbus.php)
>. My plane will have the normal electrical stuff: landing lights, radios,
>intercom, Dynon glass cockpit instruments, nav and strobe lights, VHF and
>Mode C radios, an EZ single axis autopilot, and a few lighted steam gauges.
>
>I know aeroelectric says keep it simple and use switches rather than
>breakers, but I don t have a lot of room left on my panel and this "box"
>looks easy to install and flashes indication that a breaker has been
>tripped (with an indicator module option).
>
>Do you know if this device provides for an essential buss or will isolates
>a bad generator? Is this overkill? Are there specific up or downsides I
>need to know about? Is it a good way to go?
>
>Thanks for the advice,
Products like this PRE-design your electrical
system not only with a selection of hardware but
they establish the architecture as well. What you
see is what you get. If there's a feature you don't
need, it's not an easy option to eliminate it.
If there's a feature you want that is not offered,
it's not easy (or neat) to add.
When it comes time to do repairs in the future,
any repair needed to one of these assemblies will
be more arduous than for the simple row of switches
and associated hardware for which you posses some
personal understanding.
Finally, consider the cost. For the price of these
products, you can pretty much purchase ALL the switches,
wire, contactors, fuse blocks and then form them into
architecture and features that exactly meet your needs.
The only advantage for choosing the pre-fabricated
route is perhaps a savings of having to make some
decisions and acquire understanding. The price for
this relief may result in a system that is less than
the best we know how to do and will ultimately have
a higher cost of ownership.
Go to http://aeroelectric.com and do a search on
"exp-bus". There have been a number of detailed
discussions on this topic in past years.
These products probably perform as advertised.
This isn't an issue of functionality or safety.
It is an issue of how much command and control
of your destiny you're willing to hand over to
a pre-fab shop and how much you're willing to pay
them to take that command and control.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gaye and Vaughn" <vaughnray(at)bvunet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: What about an electronic distribution panel? |
I had planned to use the EXP2V bus in my Europa and had, in fact,
purchased it. After several attempts to call and email in order to get
info so that I could wire in a second alternator, I sent it back after 9
months because I did not receive anything other than automated
responses. Since I did not really need to know that they had received my
message, but needed to know if it could accommodate a second alternator.
I will not deal with unresponsive vendors. Anyway after 9 months, I had
studied The AeroElectic Connection enough to realize the shortcomings of
their distribution panel and enough knowledge to proceed without it. As
Bob said, if you are trying to do something other than what the panel
was designed to do, you would be better off gaining the understanding
necessary to do it yourself. The bonus later on is the ability to
trouble shoot and make changes if you decide to modify your panel in
some way.
Vaughn Teegarden
my 2 cents worth
----- Original Message -----
From: Les Goldner
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 2:27 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: What about an electronic distribution
panel?
I am building a Zenith 701 with a Rotax 912ULS engine and would like
to have opinions about using a commercial panel power distribution
system like EXP Bus Products' EXP2V (see
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/expbus.php) . My plane
will have the normal electrical stuff: landing lights, radios, intercom,
Dynon glass cockpit instruments, nav and strobe lights, VHF and Mode C
radios, an EZ single axis autopilot, and a few lighted steam gauges.
I know aeroelectric says keep it simple and use switches rather than
breakers, but I don't have a lot of room left on my panel and this "box"
looks easy to install and flashes indication that a breaker has been
tripped (with an indicator module option).
Do you know if this device provides for an essential buss or will
isolates a bad generator? Is this overkill? Are there specific up or
downsides I need to know about? Is it a good way to go?
Thanks for the advice,
Les
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rtitsworth" <rtitsworth(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | 12V batteries in series - a few more followup questions |
Bob, etal,
I might have missed it (I re-checked), but I never saw an answer/reply to
the questions below. As always, I appreciate any thoughts you offer. I'm
indebted to your efforts/experience.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: rtitsworth [mailto:rtitsworth(at)mindspring.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 1:14 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 12V batteries in series - a few more
followup questions
BobN,
Thanks much (as usual)!!! I'm going to try the omega bend connector, it
should be pretty simple with the thin material - probably better than the
straight/flat connector, perhaps not as robust as the 4AWG cable - sort of a
compromise in my mind.
Follow-up question#1: Let's say sometime in the future, one of the battery
terminals or the omega connector strap comes loose or breaks off in flight.
How would I know (during the flight)? My ignorant guesses below.
a) The ammeter (shunt on the battery lead) would move from perhaps a slight
charging state to zero, but that might not be noticeable.
b) I understand the alternator would not be happy without the battery. But,
how would I know? Voltage fluctuations? Potential overvoltage (crowbar)
scenario?
c) Other???
Follow-up question #2: What type of nut should I use on the threaded
battery terminals? I'm assuming just a plain (AN345) nut (Cad plated,
Stainless, other)? However, it would be nice to safety it somehow (perhaps
overkill). Would it make sense to use two nuts (a jam nut)? Would it make
sense to use a nylon lock nut as the 2nd jam nut? Would it make most sense
to just use one all metal stop nut (AN363)
Follow-up question #3: Assuming a ground stud through the firewall, what
should the stud be made of (steel) (zink plated) ((brass) (other)? What
type of nut(s) should I use on it (same as the battery terminals)? What
type of nut should I use on the engine side of the engine ground braid?
Rick Titsworth
rtitsworth(at)mindspring.com
Detroit, Michigan
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | What about an electronic distribution panel? |
Thanks for the advice guys. You just saved me a few hundred dollars and a
lot of aggravation... So if you or Bob or Bill come to Berkeley or Petaluma,
let me know and I will buy you lunch. (Bill I know you live close by, so I
expect to pay-up)
Regards,
Les
Les Goldner
188 Gravatt Dr.
Berkeley, CA 94705
510-549-1622
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gaye and
Vaughn
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 7:02 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What about an electronic distribution panel?
I had planned to use the EXP2V bus in my Europa and had, in fact, purchased
it. After several attempts to call and email in order to get info so that I
could wire in a second alternator, I sent it back after 9 months because I
did not receive anything other than automated responses. Since I did not
really need to know that they had received my message, but needed to know if
it could accommodate a second alternator. I will not deal with unresponsive
vendors. Anyway after 9 months, I had studied The AeroElectic Connection
enough to realize the shortcomings of their distribution panel and enough
knowledge to proceed without it. As Bob said, if you are trying to do
something other than what the panel was designed to do, you would be better
off gaining the understanding necessary to do it yourself. The bonus later
on is the ability to trouble shoot and make changes if you decide to modify
your panel in some way.
Vaughn Teegarden
my 2 cents worth
----- Original Message -----
From: Les Goldner <mailto:lgold@quantum-associates.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 2:27 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: What about an electronic distribution panel?
I am building a Zenith 701 with a Rotax 912ULS engine and would like to have
opinions about using a commercial panel power distribution system like EXP
Bus Products' EXP2V (see
<http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/expbus.php>
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/expbus.php) . My plane will
have the normal electrical stuff: landing lights, radios, intercom, Dynon
glass cockpit instruments, nav and strobe lights, VHF and Mode C radios, an
EZ single axis autopilot, and a few lighted steam gauges.
I know aeroelectric says keep it simple and use switches rather than
breakers, but I don't have a lot of room left on my panel and this "box"
looks easy to install and flashes indication that a breaker has been tripped
(with an indicator module option).
Do you know if this device provides for an essential buss or will isolates a
bad generator? Is this overkill? Are there specific up or downsides I need
to know about? Is it a good way to go?
Thanks for the advice,
Les
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "hansriet" <hansinla(at)mac.com> |
Hello Listmembers,
I would like to introduce myself. I'm a brand new builder of a Zenith Zodiac XL
kit. I plan to do a lot of electronics mods myself (flunked polytechnic college
in a previous life many moons ago).
I have Bob's book and I think it's great. has anybody on the list ever attempted
to build a two place intercom? I think the intercoms on the market are way overpriced.
I found schematics for a David Clark intercom on their website and
think about using that for inspiration.
Regards,
Hans van Riet
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=106529#106529
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric.com is in new digs . . . |
| From: | "hansriet" <hansinla(at)mac.com> |
Bob,
I attempted to order a PCB for the audio isolation amp, but haven't heard anything.
Maybe it got lost in the move?
Hans van Riet
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=106530#106530
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Cool,
I sold a 601 HDS with a subaru conversion last year That I had built and
flown for 7 years.
I think you can build a lot of your own electronics, its just a case of
do you want to with all the other work you will be doing? Certainly
building my IFR Rv7 there was no way I would bother investing that kind
of time.
But I have seen a lot of designs for home made circuitry.
Have fun
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
hansriet
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:31 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Introduction
Hello Listmembers,
I would like to introduce myself. I'm a brand new builder of a Zenith
Zodiac XL kit. I plan to do a lot of electronics mods myself (flunked
polytechnic college in a previous life many moons ago).
I have Bob's book and I think it's great. has anybody on the list ever
attempted to build a two place intercom? I think the intercoms on the
market are way overpriced. I found schematics for a David Clark intercom
on their website and think about using that for inspiration.
Regards,
Hans van Riet
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=106529#106529
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Doyle" <mdoyle2(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 04/12/07 |
I built one of these intercom kits at least 12 years ago, and have been
using it since then. Works great.
http://www.rst-engr.com/rst/catalog/intercom.html
Mike Doyle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY Intercom System |
>
>Hello Listmembers,
>
>I would like to introduce myself. I'm a brand new builder of a Zenith
>Zodiac XL kit. I plan to do a lot of electronics mods myself (flunked
>polytechnic college in a previous life many moons ago).
>
>I have Bob's book and I think it's great. has anybody on the list ever
>attempted to build a two place intercom? I think the intercoms on the
>market are way overpriced. I found schematics for a David Clark intercom
>on their website and think about using that for inspiration.
The audio portion of an intercom is stone simple. The
tricky part is development of a background noise reduction
system that's effective, drift free and relatively immune
to variables in ambient noise.
Designs of yore used a simple rectifier of total signal
and a comparator to decide when signal levels were high
enough (because someone's voice was added to background
noise) to open the signal gate and allow everything (voice +
noise) to be heard in everyone's headphones.
There's a wealth of signal+noise to noise deduction philosophies
with the more modern techniques using rudimentary digital
signal processing software in a microcontroller to do
the threshold adjustments and make gating decisions in
real time. These intercoms don't have or need "squelch"
adjustment knobs.
The systems that do have manual adjustments can benefit
from a variety of active filter techniques that improves
the squelch system's ability to sort speech signals from
noise signals. What you pay for in an commercial-off-the-shelf
(COTS) intercom system is a whippy noise gating system and usually
with a warranty. If you don't like it, you can generally
get you money back with a minimum investment of $time$.
It's not my intent to discourage you from attempting
a satisfactory design on your own but be advised that
when all the solder joints have cooled and you have
a successful system running in your airplane, you will
have invested much more $time$ on the project than you would
have expended on a COTS product.
I've got some ideas for a software based noise gating
system I'd like to try and I've discussed it with my
software guru but this project is WAY back on the
burners. The development effort is significant and
the competition in this arena is competent and
in my never humble opinion, nicely priced. I'm doubtful
that it's worth my $time$ to step into that bull-fight.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | 12V batteries in series - a few more followup |
questions
>I might have missed it (I re-checked), but I never saw an answer/reply to
>the questions below. As always, I appreciate any thoughts you offer. I'm
>indebted to your efforts/experience.
>Rick
You done good. I sift through the e-mails and respond
from the bottom up. If I didn't, I'd be making replies
to stuff posted back in 2006.
So if someone's query doesn't make the cut for time and
inspiration several days in a row, it's not likely to
bubble to the top automatically and needs to be reposted.
>BobN,
>Thanks much (as usual)!!! I'm going to try the omega bend connector, it
>should be pretty simple with the thin material - probably better than the
>straight/flat connector, perhaps not as robust as the 4AWG cable - sort of a
>compromise in my mind.
Agreed.
>Follow-up question#1: Let's say sometime in the future, one of the battery
>terminals or the omega connector strap comes loose or breaks off in flight.
>How would I know (during the flight)? My ignorant guesses below.
>
>a) The ammeter (shunt on the battery lead) would move from perhaps a slight
>charging state to zero, but that might not be noticeable.
>
>b) I understand the alternator would not be happy without the battery. But,
>how would I know? Voltage fluctuations? Potential overvoltage (crowbar)
>scenario?
>
>c) Other???
I don't recommend battery ammeters and for the most part,
you wouldn't notice anything. Many a Bonanza pilot has landed
and during shutdown discovered that he mis-flipped a switch
somewhere along the way and the battery has been off line
for some time.
The risk for running sans battery with alternators is that
a high inrush current system (landing lights, hydraulic gear motors,
etc) will "stall" the alternator if the battery is not on line
to fill in for milliseconds of inrush time. For the most
part, voltage regulation sans battery is not seriously
affected except for highly dynamic situations and these
situations do not offer hazardous situations.
One of the studies I want to conduct after the drive stand
is running . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternator_Test_Stand/DSCN0961.JPG
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternator_Test_Stand/DSCN0962.JPG
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternator_Test_Stand/DSCN0963.JPG
. . . is to explore and quantify system operating conditions
sans battery along with an investigation of how well modern
alternators will self-excite. It's been a long standing assumption
based on 1960's alternator technologies that one should always
have a source of alternator excitation energy aboard to insure
availability of engine driven power. For the most part, the
battery fills this role but some worriers have gone to the
effort of providing little kick-starting systems that run
whether or not a battery is present. We stirred that stew
on the C-337 in the mid 60's.
Alternators on Bonanzas will self excite and run sans
battery. It's not real clear that we don't have a similar
situation with belt driven automotives which cruise at over
10,000 rpm on the front of a Lyc.
Another new idea coming over the hill calls for inclusion
of a super-capacitor (1 farad or more) across the main
bus. This device may have much better noise filtering
characteristics than any battery. We'll see . . .
>Follow-up question #2: What type of nut should I use on the threaded
>battery terminals? I'm assuming just a plain (AN345) nut (Cad plated,
>Stainless, other)? However, it would be nice to safety it somehow (perhaps
>overkill). Would it make sense to use two nuts (a jam nut)? Would it make
>sense to use a nylon lock nut as the 2nd jam nut? Would it make most sense
>to just use one all metal stop nut (AN363)
The thing that's going to put these joints at risk
for loosening is vibration of a mass that imparts
ROTATIONAL forces. The light and flexible welding
cable leads and your thin brass omega jumper do not
present great risks. Any of the schemes you've described
are probably overkill. Go the easiest route if at all.
>Follow-up question #3: Assuming a ground stud through the firewall, what
>should the stud be made of (steel) (zink plated) ((brass) (other)? What
>type of nut(s) should I use on it (same as the battery terminals)? What
>type of nut should I use on the engine side of the engine ground braid?
Please use brass hardware for this. 5/16" minimum and 3/8" preferred.
Ordinary brass nuts torqued to recommended values. After your
40 hour fly-off, consider disassembling the array of ground stud,
nuts and terminals. Do final cleaning. Re-assemble with Locktite
271 or similar on threads and torque to recommended values.
It's unlikely that this joint needs to be opened over the lifetime
of the airplane. Making it semi-permanent after you've completed
the development phase of construction is not an unreasonable thing
to consider.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gaye and Vaughn" <vaughnray(at)bvunet.net> |
Good Morning Bob,
I have pasted my question to Lockwood and their answer. Unfortunately, I
can't seem to figure out if your drawing complies with the issues
delineated in their answer, even after attending your seminar. Please
excuse my confusion, but the sparks don't seem to be propagating
properly in my central processor.
Vaughn Teegarden
Europa XS, Rotax 914
THEIR ANSWER
This is an AC generator system, the regulator is separate.
The C is indeed a control circuit and must power the regulator at all
times when the engine is running. When the engine is shut off it too (C
terminal) must disconnect, or the battery will drain. The C lead must
be in contact at all times while running or the regulator would fail
internally.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gaye & Vaughn
To: info@lockwood-aviation.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 10:07 AM
Subject: Wiring of Ducati regulator
I am attaching the wiring diagram proposed by Bob Nukolls for the
Rotax engines. You will notice that he uses the "C" lead to control the
internal alternator. Does this risk burning up of the regulator or
damaging the alternator? A lot of builders are using this method of
wiring their aircraft. I would like to know from Rotax itself why this a
bad practice and I think that it would benefit Rotax to contact Bob at
AeroElectric and explain it to him so that he will quit suggesting his
wiring solution.
Thanks,
Vaughn Teegarden...purchasing within 3 months
________________________________________________________________________________
Gaye and Vaughn a crit :
> Good Morning Bob,
>
> I have pasted my question to Lockwood and their answer. Unfortunately,
> I can't seem to figure out if your drawing complies with the
> issues delineated in their answer, even after attending your seminar.
>
Vaughn,
When wiring our 914 project, I made some study on the Rotax regulator.
After much research and bench testing, it appeared that wiring the C
wire to the the B terminal or the positive terminal of the capacitor
would ensure correct working of the system. So you don't sever the
connection of the control wire to a voltage reference.
But IF the regulator fails to regulate (a not so unlikely event, judging
from my buddies homebuilders mishaps), the capacitor will take the full
unregulated voltage of the alternator (up to 100V), and may well burst.
The latest version of Z16 seems to ensure a safe working : in case of OV
event, the alternator is isolated from the ships circuit. There is
nothing wrong with spinning the alternator on its own. I did it many
times on the bench.
On reconnecting, the regulator sees the battery reference voltage, and
starts regulating right away.
I must confess that after testing the Rotax regulator, I switched for a
Schicke GR4 regulator, with better regulation and thermal rejection.
Worked great for 120 flight hours.
I'm presently working on a Rotax 912S porject , and followed the latest Z16.
First flight expected within two months.
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>Good Morning Bob,
>
>I have pasted my question to Lockwood and their answer. Unfortunately, I
>can't seem to figure out if your drawing complies with the issues
>delineated in their answer, even after attending your seminar. Please
>excuse my confusion, but the sparks don't seem to be propagating properly
>in my central processor.
>
>Vaughn Teegarden
>Europa XS, Rotax 914
>
>
>THEIR ANSWER
>This is an AC generator system, the regulator is separate.prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
>
>The C is indeed a control circuit and must power the regulator at all
>times when the engine is running. When the engine is shut off it too (C
>terminal) must disconnect, or the battery will drain. The C lead must be
>in contact at all times while running or the regulator would fail internally.
An analysis of the schematic for the Ducati regulator
supplied with Rotax engines . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/regul_912.jpg
. . . confirms that the C terminal supplies operating power
for the low level electronics along with a path for bus votlage
sensing. Opening this lead while the engine running simply shuts
the regulator down assuming that input voltages from the
dynamo do not soar to deleterious levels . . . doubtful but
I have no way to prove it.
Further, their admonition about disconnecting "C" when
powered down to avoid battery drain is valid for systems
that do not have battery contactors or switches (like
ultralights I suppose).
Their response is typical of many suppliers who are exceedingly
limited in their understanding of the product they sell and
variabilities in how their customers might properly use
those products. In a nutshell . . . wire per Figure Z-16
of . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf
. . . and do not concern yourself with any disagreement
you may perceive between the little information they have
to offer and well considered advice you might receive
elsewhere. It's unlikely that anyone on staff at your
supplier can discuss applications and options with
any logic. They're only parroting information fed to them
by others who are equally un-informed as to how you meet
your design goals.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY Intercom System |
Sorry I can't find your name but for the original person asking, while
any homemade intercom is likely better than no intercom you might also
be content with the intercom that is included as part of some VHF
radios such as the Iccom A200 although I don't think that particular one
has Voice activation.
Bob I agree that it is probably not good use of time for most folks to
try and improve on something like the Flighttech hot mic intercom that
has no background noise that I can notice, whether someone is talking or
not. I think it uses a chip developed for telephone use rather than
custom DSP technology but it works amazingly well for me and the price
is right.
I guess I've only used the cheaper VOX intercoms but even with matched
headsets and perfectly adjusted squelch, they seem to pick up a lot of
background noise when someone is talking. Maybe the high end units are
better but I'd never go back to a VOX unit.
Ken
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>> Hello Listmembers,
>>
>> I would like to introduce myself. I'm a brand new builder of a Zenith
>> Zodiac XL kit. I plan to do a lot of electronics mods myself (flunked
>> polytechnic college in a previous life many moons ago).
>>
>> I have Bob's book and I think it's great. has anybody on the list
>> ever attempted to build a two place intercom? I think the intercoms
>> on the market are way overpriced. I found schematics for a David
>> Clark intercom on their website and think about using that for
>> inspiration.
>
>
> The audio portion of an intercom is stone simple. The
> tricky part is development of a background noise reduction
> system that's effective, drift free and relatively immune
> to variables in ambient noise.
>
> Designs of yore used a simple rectifier of total signal
> and a comparator to decide when signal levels were high
> enough (because someone's voice was added to background
> noise) to open the signal gate and allow everything (voice +
> noise) to be heard in everyone's headphones.
>
> There's a wealth of signal+noise to noise deduction philosophies
> with the more modern techniques using rudimentary digital
> signal processing software in a microcontroller to do
> the threshold adjustments and make gating decisions in
> real time. These intercoms don't have or need "squelch"
> adjustment knobs.
>
> The systems that do have manual adjustments can benefit
> from a variety of active filter techniques that improves
> the squelch system's ability to sort speech signals from
> noise signals. What you pay for in an commercial-off-the-shelf
> (COTS) intercom system is a whippy noise gating system and usually
> with a warranty. If you don't like it, you can generally
> get you money back with a minimum investment of $time$.
>
> It's not my intent to discourage you from attempting
> a satisfactory design on your own but be advised that
> when all the solder joints have cooled and you have
> a successful system running in your airplane, you will
> have invested much more $time$ on the project than you would
> have expended on a COTS product.
>
> I've got some ideas for a software based noise gating
> system I'd like to try and I've discussed it with my
> software guru but this project is WAY back on the
> burners. The development effort is significant and
> the competition in this arena is competent and
> in my never humble opinion, nicely priced. I'm doubtful
> that it's worth my $time$ to step into that bull-fight.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY Intercom System |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> It's not my intent to discourage you from attempting
> a satisfactory design on your own but be advised that
> when all the solder joints have cooled and you have
> a successful system running in your airplane, you will
> have invested much more $time$ on the project than you would
> have expended on a COTS product.
Just as a single data point....
I built the RST panel mount kit. The parts all went together quickly
and easily with the connectors being the hardest part. I believe the
total cost was right at $130. I had about 20 hours total invested in
building it.
The pay back for me is being able to lay my hand on it and say, "EYE
built that," with my chest pushed out. Unless you're as egotistical as
I am, it may not pay you to go this route. OTOH, I'm actually saddened
that RST is no longer selling their DIY radio kits.
--
,|"|"|, Ernest Christley |
----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder |
o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gaye and Vaughn" <vaughnray(at)bvunet.net> |
Dang!
I had not seen Rev 11 of the Z drawings. I will incorporate this into my
dual alternator schematic. The internal Rotax alternator will be used as
an auxillary, which means the electricity that it generates will be
absorbed by the 22mF capacitor unless the 40amp eternal regulator fails.
Am I right?
Vaughn Teegarden
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Vaughn,
I don't think that's precisely right.. Whichever alternator has a
regulator with the highest setpoint voltage (it's unlikely the setpoints
will be exactly equal) will provide all of the system power up to 100% of
the current it's capable of at that voltage. The other alternator will
only deliver power to the system when the system voltage drops below that
alternator's setpoint voltage.
I gather the Rotax alternator is actually a permanent magnet dynamo..
Anytime the system voltage is above the regulator setpoint, the
regulator's connection between the dynamo output and the buss is opened
(gated off). The AC voltage seen on the output of the dynamo will rise to
some peak value and remain there (50V?). I don't think any capacitor is
involved.
Regards,
Matt-
> Dang!
>
> I had not seen Rev 11 of the Z drawings. I will incorporate this into my
> dual alternator schematic. The internal Rotax alternator will be used as
> an auxillary, which means the electricity that it generates will be
> absorbed by the 22mF capacitor unless the 40amp eternal regulator fails.
> Am I right?
>
> Vaughn Teegarden
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>Dang!
>
>I had not seen Rev 11 of the Z drawings. I will incorporate this into my
>dual alternator schematic. The internal Rotax alternator will be used as
>an auxillary, which means the electricity that it generates will be
>absorbed by the 22mF capacitor unless the 40amp eternal regulator fails.
>Am I right?
>
>Vaughn Teegarden
Figure Z-11 is a single alternator system. If you want to combine
a robust belt driven alternator with a permanent magnet backup
(like the 18A machine on the Rotax) consider Z-13/8.
The latest revisions of all the Z-drawings is available from
the website at
http://aeroelectric.com/whatsnew.html
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>Dang!
>
>I had not seen Rev 11 of the Z drawings. I will incorporate this into my
>dual alternator schematic. The internal Rotax alternator will be used as
>an auxillary, which means the electricity that it generates will be
>absorbed by the 22mF capacitor unless the 40amp eternal regulator fails.
>Am I right?
>
>Vaughn Teegarden
Ooops. I missed the earlier posting with power distribution
diagram. Ignore the earlier post on this thread.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Piavis <jpiavis(at)microsoft.com> |
I'm sure this has been discussed but searching the archives didn't produce
a lot, so I wanted to request a clarification.
I'm wiring up two Slick mags with SPST switches. From the Z-13 diagram here
's how I understand the mag wiring:
1) Use 18AWG shielded wire
2) Connect the mag-side ground pigtail to the ground stud on the mag.
3) For switch side, connect the ground pigtail to the ground side of t
he switch, thus when the switch is closed, the mag grounds to the engine vi
a the mag, using the shielding for the ground path and negating a parallel
ground path.
Do I have this correct?
Thanks,
Jim
RV-7 Wiring
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Relay and capacitor info needed |
| From: | <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US> |
Have a few questions (4) about relays and capacitors to be used on my 914
Rotax powered Europa:
1) If I use a B+C S704-1 "Sealed" relay for OVP to open and close a yellow
output wire of the internal generator (mounted on engine side of
firewall), are the chances good it will not blow apart if I choose to wave
soar up to 35K with long wings? How about at 18K with intercooled motor
running hard and temp of relay gets up to 212F?
2) If I use a Bosh 75 amp "Vented" SPST relay #75251 from
www.waytekwire.com on the engine side of the firewall used in parallel
with the B+C for OVP to disconnect the 22K uF capacitor from my E-Bus.
Should the service life be reasonable on a vented relay on the engine side
of the firewall on an airplane stored for the most part in a unheated tin
hangar? It has a small slit to allow it to vent. (On my design, if
capacitor shorted it would draw down the E-Bus with no way to sever short
without 2nd relay. My design addresses failure of battery (opened or dead)
when attempting in flight restart after soaring)
3) When turning on and off the internal generator, the 75 amp Bosh relay
will be used to charge up the 22K uF capacitor. Can this relay most like
give good service charging up the capacitor at least once per flight?
Could the B+C S704-1 "Sealed" relay most like take the abuse of charging
up the capacitor at least once per flight and be used in place of the Bosh
75 amp? (Bosh weighs in at 3.1 oz and has dual contacts)
4) I want to use for pitch trim small "Sealed" Osram 12v 5a relays from
Digikey pn G6B 2214P US DC12, are the chances good it will not blow apart
if I choose to wave soar up to 35K with long wings? Will be mounted in
cockpit.
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Should 22K uF capacitor be fused? |
| From: | <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US> |
Hello Bob
I was reading a post you made from 01-2000 about putting a 10 amp fuse on
the 22k uF capacitor of a Rotax internal generator.
Do you still advocate fusing the capacitor? I plan on using a 22K uF 35V
with a 105C rating.
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
Below is some of 2000 post you made:
The general rull of thumb for 60 Hz power supplies is 1,000
uFd per amp of power supply capacity. Applying the same rule
to the 18A Rotax alternator puts the 22,000 uFd device right
in the ballpark.
The capacitor does it's job by looking as
if it were a dead short to the AC voltages on the system.
ANY device connected in series with the capacitor raises
it's equivalent series resistance value and degrades it's
ability to do the job. A 10A fuse is a good idea . . . capacitors
rarely short but it's not impossible. Better to open a fuse
that blow the end out of the capacitor . . . they stink
and are really messy.
Capacitors rated for operation at 85 degrees C are standard.
Further, they don't have to be big either. A 33,000 uFd,
16 volt device can be had with an envelope of 1.4" diameter
and 2.13" long. You want a computer grade device with 10-32
screw terminals. These have the lowest internal resistance
and are most suited for attaching the fat wires used to wire
the alternator system.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rodney Dunham" <rdunhamtn(at)hotmail.com> |
Bob said...
"It's unlikely that anyone on staff at your supplier can discuss
applications and options with any logic. They're only parroting information
fed to them by others who are equally un-informed as to how you meet your
design goals."
How right you are! I called Jabiru USA to ask about the voltage regulator
they sell and install on their Jabiru engines and aircraft. They could not
tell me any more about the regulator than "It's solid state." They also
didn't seem to understand the physics of the PM Dynamo in their engines.
After looking at their wiring in the few planes under construction, I
concluded they could use a 'Connection Seminar! But, I kept my mouth shut. I
was there to learn from them. And it was a good seminar in all other
respects.
Rod
_________________________________________________________________
Download Messenger. Join the im Initiative. Help make a difference today.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael T. Ice" <aurbo(at)ak.net> |
| Subject: | curious questions |
Hello,
A friend of mine that occasionally helps me work on my RV-9 has asked me some
questions that I can't answer satisfactorily. He is a great guy and has a very
curious mind, he owns and works on boats, cars, etc, but doesn't have a history
with aircraft. These are the questions in his own words posted below. Any
help will be gratefully accepted.
In the course of helping a friend construct an RV 9 I had the opportunity to examine
the electrical system design. I was puzzled at the use of a master relay
(solenoid) to switch the entire electrical system. A number of questions occurred
to me regarding this design:
The questions: How much amperage draw does the solenoid consume simply being energized?
At what voltage does the Solenoid release? And why this design?
It seems to me inserting the master relay (solenoid) into the electrical system
has no benefit and some detriment.
The detriments are: 1. constant draw on battery when energized. 2. greater complexity.
3. increased weight (all 6 oz of the solenoid) 4. failure of the complete
electrical system if a) the solenoid fails, or b) if you have alternator failure
and voltage drops low enough to allow the solenoid to not close/open (we
have all heard the clicking of the starter solenoid on a run down car battery-
but the radios still work).
Contrast this with the benefit- uh- what benefit? There is the same amount of
current flowing to the panel from the battery whether it comes via the relay
or via a straight run to a master switch. Starter current continues to utilize
the starter solenoid. Alternator output current can be routed directly to the
battery since the field voltage can be turned off via the master switch (and
as I understand the design, inserting a fuse in the alternator output line).
My limited knowledge may be impeding my appreciation of the function of the master
relay- but I have been pondering this- and can't come up with a good rationale.
On large aircraft, where you have significant electrical loads that are
distant from the cockpit, it would make sense to use a relay so that you minimize
voltage drop and/or weight by eliminating long wiring runs. But this doesn't
seem to be the case here. The argument regarding electromagnetic fields near
radios does not hold up since the loads are the same whether switched through
a relay or not.
I guess the bottom line is- There are some VERY smart people building these aircraft.
Surely there is a good reason for the master relay design- I just want
to know what it is?
In the course of helping a friend construct an RV 9 I had the opportunity to
examine the electrical system design. I was puzzled at the use of a master relay
(solenoid) to switch the entire electrical system. A number of questions occurred
to me regarding this design:
The questions: How much amperage draw does the solenoid consume simply being energized?
At what voltage does the Solenoid release? And why this design?
It seems to me inserting the master relay (solenoid) into the electrical system
has no benefit and some detriment.
The detriments are: 1. constant draw on battery when energized. 2. greater complexity.
3. increased weight (all 6oz of the solenoid) 4. failure of the complete
electrical system if a) the solenoid fails, or b) if you have alternator failure
and voltage drops low enough to allow the solenoid to not close/open (we
have all heard the clicking of the starter solenoid on a run down car battery-
but the radios still work).
Contrast this with the benefit- uh- what benefit? There is the same amount of
current flowing to the panel from the battery whether it comes via the relay or
via a straight run to a master switch. Starter current continues to utilize
the starter solenoid. Alternator output current can be routed directly to the
battery since the field voltage can be turned off via the master switch (and as
I understand the design, inserting a fuse in the alternator output line).
My limited knowledge may be impeding my appreciation of the function of the master
relay- but I have been pondering this- and can't come up with a good rationale.
On large aircraft, where you have significant electrical loads that are
distant from the cockpit, it would make sense to use a relay so that you minimize
voltage drop and/or weight by eliminating long wiring runs. But this doesn't
seem to be the case here. The argument regarding electromagnetic fields near
radios does not hold up since the loads are the same whether switched through
a relay or not.
I guess the bottom line is- There are some VERY smart people building these aircraft.
Surely there is a good reason for the master relay design- I just want
to know what it is?
Blue Skies,
Mike Ice
RV-9, electrical almost complete, just laid up fiberglass skirts for the canopy
last night,
next up: motor mount, install gear legs, then engine
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Grant Neilson" <grantneilson(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Crimp on terminals |
Is it a good idea to "tin" wire ends with a little solder before using crimp
on terminals for D miniature connectors, or not?
Grant Neilson
RV9A, finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Relay and capacitor info needed |
>
>Have a few questions (4) about relays and capacitors to be used on my 914
>Rotax powered Europa:
>
>1) If I use a B+C S704-1 "Sealed" relay for OVP to open and close a yellow
>output wire of the internal generator (mounted on engine side of
>firewall), are the chances good it will not blow apart if I choose to wave
>soar up to 35K with long wings? How about at 18K with intercooled motor
>running hard and temp of relay gets up to 212F?
Use the relay to do AC switching instead of DC switching . . .
>2) If I use a Bosh 75 amp "Vented" SPST relay #75251 from
>www.waytekwire.com on the engine side of the firewall used in parallel
>with the B+C for OVP to disconnect the 22K uF capacitor from my E-Bus.
>Should the service life be reasonable on a vented relay on the engine side
>of the firewall on an airplane stored for the most part in a unheated tin
>hangar? It has a small slit to allow it to vent. (On my design, if
>capacitor shorted it would draw down the E-Bus with no way to sever short
>without 2nd relay. My design addresses failure of battery (opened or dead)
>when attempting in flight restart after soaring)
Why not wire your PM alternator like Z-16 and leave the capacitor
across the battery all the time?
>3) When turning on and off the internal generator, the 75 amp Bosh relay
>will be used to charge up the 22K uF capacitor. Can this relay most like
>give good service charging up the capacitor at least once per flight?
>Could the B+C S704-1 "Sealed" relay most like take the abuse of charging
>up the capacitor at least once per flight and be used in place of the Bosh
>75 amp? (Bosh weighs in at 3.1 oz and has dual contacts)
If you're wired per the latest control philosophies for PM
alternators, the capacitor charges through the battery contactor
which won't be particularly stressed by this activity. The
act of charging the capacitor using the output of the alternator
is current limited by the alternator's dynamics. No inrush
concerns here.
>4) I want to use for pitch trim small "Sealed" Osram 12v 5a relays from
>Digikey pn G6B 2214P US DC12, are the chances good it will not blow apart
>if I choose to wave soar up to 35K with long wings? Will be mounted in
>cockpit.
What kind of trim motors? You're probably fine with MAC/RayAllen
actuators. You could easily go all solid state with these duties
and eliminate the worries entirely. You're not going to "blow them
apart" . . . the risk is that at reduced pressures, the arcing
that inevitably forms between spreading contacts is more severe
and you get reduced service life. I've not tested open relays at
these altitudes . . . our mil-spec products are sealed.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Should 22K uF capacitor be fused? |
>
>Hello Bob
>
>I was reading a post you made from 01-2000 about putting a 10 amp fuse on
>the 22k uF capacitor of a Rotax internal generator.
>
>Do you still advocate fusing the capacitor? I plan on using a 22K uF 35V
>with a 105C rating.'
It doesn't hurt but it's also unlikely to
be a big help either. The fault currents that
can flow in a self destructing capacitor can
stay below fuse blowing levels.
Better to treat this capacitor as an expendable
like batteries and tires. Replace it every so often,
probably 3-4 years is fine. Even then, you're sandbagging
a really rare event.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gaye and Vaughn" <vaughnray(at)bvunet.net> |
have attempted to incorporate the new rev 11 rotax alternator system
into my dual alt system, as Mike Gregory suggested. PDF file attached. I
have also incorporated several changes made by list members because they
made too much sense to ignore. BOB, does this give me security in the
air. Thank you all.
Vaughn Teegarden
Europa XS mono, Rotax 914
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Crimp on terminals |
| From: | Ron Quillin <rjquillin(at)gmail.com> |
At 08:53 4/14/2007, you wrote:
>
>
>Is it a good idea to "tin" wire ends with a little solder before using crimp
>on terminals for D miniature connectors, or not?
Not only is it not a good idea, it's not even permitted when doing
qualified assembly for JPL/NASA flight equipment. This does assume
proper crimp equipment.
Ron Q.
>Grant Neilson
>RV9A, finishing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>Bob said...
>
>"It's unlikely that anyone on staff at your supplier can discuss
>applications and options with any logic. They're only parroting
>information fed to them by others who are equally un-informed as to how
>you meet your design goals."
>
>How right you are! I called Jabiru USA to ask about the voltage regulator
>they sell and install on their Jabiru engines and aircraft. They could not
>tell me any more about the regulator than "It's solid state." They also
>didn't seem to understand the physics of the PM Dynamo in their engines.
It's difficult for folks who WORK in this environment.
I just got home from delivering a Sandbox session to
engineering professionals from my place of work. Wichita
State lets me use a really nice classroom in the NIAR
building for Saturday morning classes.
These are folks who do not get an opportunity to exercise
the best they know how to do every day and it gets away
from you. We did a refresher course this morning on
DC motor characteristics that was well received. My
chief scientist gives me feedback on these efforts and
he has enthusiastically supported and attended the
classes since day-one.
>After looking at their wiring in the few planes under construction, I
>concluded they could use a 'Connection Seminar! But, I kept my mouth shut.
>I was there to learn from them. And it was a good seminar in all other
>respects.
It easy to blow off any need for knowing more about
things that you don't understand or are not interested
in. If I were selling that hardware, I have it apart
and certainly have schematics to refer to. It may not
be mortal sin to sell stuff you don't understand and
cannot explain . . . but it's not a venial sin either.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gaye and Vaughn" <vaughnray(at)bvunet.net> |
Hi all you people who prabably have functioning brain cells left. Here
is my message again with the proper heading. It seems that I can't
destinguish between "Z" and "Rev".
I have attempted to incorporate the new rev 11 rotax alternator system
into my dual alt system, as Mike Gregory suggested. PDF file attached. I
have also incorporated several changes made by list members because they
made too much sense to ignore. BOB, does this give me security in the
air. Thank you all.
Vaughn Teegarden
Europa XS mono, Rotax 914
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Battery insulation |
| From: | "Leo Holler" <leoh(at)gci.net> |
A friend has a Cherokee 140 with an original battery box beneath the rear seat.
He has replaced the lead acid battery with a 16 AH RG battery. The RG battery
is oriented the same as the lead acid battery had been. To keep the new battery
from flopping around (it is much smaller than the old lead acid one) he inserted
DOW HI (blue board foam) insulation around the four sides. I don't recall
seeing any insulation under or over the battery. My question: Is this insulation
OK or is there a chance that the battery could overheat if under heavy recharge?
The installation looks nice and tidy and is very lightweight, but I'd
like to make sure he is not set up for a problem in flight. Please comment if
you can.
Leo Holler
leoh(at)gci.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=106925#106925
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Battery insulation |
Good Afternoon Leo,
Is the RG battery he is using in his Cherokee listed as being approved for
that use?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 4/14/2007 3:20:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
leoh(at)gci.net writes:
A friend has a Cherokee 140 with an original battery box beneath the rear
seat. He has replaced the lead acid battery with a 16 AH RG battery. The RG
battery is oriented the same as the lead acid battery had been. To keep the new
battery from flopping around (it is much smaller than the old lead acid one)
he inserted DOW HI (blue board foam) insulation around the four sides. I
don't recall seeing any insulation under or over the battery. My question: Is
this insulation OK or is there a chance that the battery could overheat if under
heavy recharge? The installation looks nice and tidy and is very
lightweight, but I'd like to make sure he is not set up for a problem in flight.
Please
comment if you can.
Leo Holler
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Relay and capacitor info needed |
| From: | <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US> |
Hello Bob
Thx. for the reply. There remains unanswered questions if you don't mind,
I will note below with ****
>>Have a few questions (4) about relays and capacitors to be used on my 914
>>Rotax powered Europa:
>>
>>1) If I use a B+C S704-1 "Sealed" relay for OVP to open and close a yellow
>>output wire of the internal generator (mounted on engine side of
>>firewall), are the chances good it will not blow apart if I choose to wave
>>soar up to 35K with long wings? How about at 18K with intercooled motor
>>running hard and temp of relay gets up to 212F?
>
> Use the relay to do AC switching instead of DC switching . . .
**** The yellow output wire of the Rotax generator is AC. My question has
to do with the internal pressure of the relay blowing apart the sealed
container like a bag of potato chips that will explode at altitude. Do you
think this relay can take the internal pressure of 35K or 18K at 212F
without exploding?
>>2) If I use a Bosh 75 amp "Vented" SPST relay #75251 from
>>www.waytekwire.com on the engine side of the firewall used in parallel
>>with the B+C for OVP to disconnect the 22K uF capacitor from my E-Bus.
>>Should the service life be reasonable on a vented relay on the engine side
>>of the firewall on an airplane stored for the most part in a unheated tin
>>hangar? It has a small slit to allow it to vent. (On my design, if
>>capacitor shorted it would draw down the E-Bus with no way to sever short
>>without 2nd relay. My design addresses failure of battery (opened or dead)
>>when attempting in flight restart after soaring)
>
> Why not wire your PM alternator like Z-16 and leave the capacitor
> across the battery all the time?
**** If running on E-Bus, having a leaking capacitor that can not be
disconnected will defeat much which I desire in my design. I am not using
a Battery contactor, but a Flaming River switch, and turning it off will
not sever the capacitor from the E-Bus. I am willing to accept the extra
complexity to have this extra relay that will disconnect the capacitor
when Rotax generator is turned off either by generator switch or OV. This
is in addition to opening the AC with S704-1 relay. Yes kinda like wearing
suspenders and a belt, but it will accomplish what I desire.
My question is do you think this vented 75 amp relay will provide
reasonable service living on the engine side of the firewall with regard
to condensation causing problems (corrosion/contamination ingress) and or
any other problems that can be associated with a vented relay?
>>3) When turning on and off the internal generator, the 75 amp Bosh relay
>>will be used to charge up the 22K uF capacitor. Can this relay most like
>>give good service charging up the capacitor at least once per flight?
>>Could the B+C S704-1 "Sealed" relay most like take the abuse of charging
>>up the capacitor at least once per flight and be used in place of the Bosh
>>75 amp? (Bosh weighs in at 3.1 oz and has dual contacts)
>
> If you're wired per the latest control philosophies for PM
> alternators, the capacitor charges through the battery contactor
> which won't be particularly stressed by this activity. The
> act of charging the capacitor using the output of the alternator
> is current limited by the alternator's dynamics. No inrush
> concerns here.
**** I am not precise following the latest control philosophies for PM
alternators. I addressed concerns in my design to allow operations from
total loss battery/s for extended soaring, failure of main battery if it
occurred during an inflight restart after soaring, once motor running on a
failed main battery I can get Rotax generator on line to power E-Bus, if
smoke from electric, I can shut down everything and have a fuel pump
running autonomous in seconds.
I want to use either a 75 amp Bosh Relay or a B+C S704-1 to disconnect DC
side from Generator. Do you think the 75 amp relay will hold up charging
the 22K uF capacitor at least once per flight? Do you think a B+C S704-1
relay will hold up charging the 22K uF capacitor at least once per flight?
Again this relay will be the tool used to make a connection and charge the
capacitor.
>>4) I want to use for pitch trim small "Sealed" Osram 12v 5a relays from
>>Digikey pn G6B 2214P US DC12, are the chances good it will not blow apart
>>if I choose to wave soar up to 35K with long wings? Will be mounted in
>>cockpit.
>
> What kind of trim motors? You're probably fine with MAC/RayAllen
> actuators. You could easily go all solid state with these duties
> and eliminate the worries entirely. You're not going to "blow them
> apart" . . . the risk is that at reduced pressures, the arcing
> that inevitably forms between spreading contacts is more severe
> and you get reduced service life. I've not tested open relays at
> these altitudes . . . our mil-spec products are sealed.
**** It is a Ray Allen, I forget the exact model but it is the smallest
one with a indicator. Question is again about blowing them apart because
the internal pressure is higher than the outside pressure at altitude. I
doubt design had in mind aircraft use??? Do you think there is a good
chance that they will not blow apart?
Thx.
Sincerely
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rino Lacombe" <lacombr(at)nbnet.nb.ca> |
The following information may be useful to others.
I got two small alternators, 30 Amp. with internal regulators that stop
generating when the wire that is connected to the ignition is disconnected.
That means I can use the field crowbar circuit to disconnect in an
overvoltage situation. These alternators come from 3 cylinder Kubota diesel
tractors. They are Denso 16678-6402. I use the two alternators on my dual
electrical system.
Rino
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery insulation |
| From: | "Leo Holler" <leoh(at)gci.net> |
BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:
> Good Afternoon Leo,
> Is the RG battery he is using in his Cherokee listed as being approved for
that use?
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
> AKA
> Bob Siegfried
> Ancient Aviator
> Stearman N3977A
> Brookeridge Air Park LL22
> Downers Grove, IL 60516
> 630 985-8503
Bob,
The battery is not approved for the Cherokee but is FAA PMA'd and approved for
many others I'm told. They will need a 337 to finish the install per his AI.
Leo
See what's free at AOL.com (http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503).
> [b]
>
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=106967#106967
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Battery insulation |
In a message dated 4/14/2007 8:13:28 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
leoh(at)gci.net writes:
Bob,
The battery is not approved for the Cherokee but is FAA PMA' d and approved
for many others I'm told. They will need a 337 to finish the install per his
AI.
Leo
Thank You Leo,
In the event something leaks, has anyone yet investigated the suitability of
the foam when it gets involved with corrosive gases? May not be considered a
problem, but --- ??
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Jewell" <jjewell(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery insulation |
Leo,
Without regard to FAA regs etc;
Just a guess, I doubt there should be a problem with the battery box stuffed
as described.
If you used a hole saw to punch the foam full of holes the insulating
quality of the foam would be reduced somewhat.
Also the drilled foam would be less resistant to being crushed and therefore
move out of the way reducing the chance of structural damage should the
"overheating" or dying battery begin to expand.
Who knows what would become of the battery in a crash scenario?
Jim in Kelowna
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo Holler" <leoh(at)gci.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 1:16 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery insulation
>
> A friend has a Cherokee 140 with an original battery box beneath the rear
> seat. He has replaced the lead acid battery with a 16 AH RG battery. The
> RG battery is oriented the same as the lead acid battery had been. To keep
> the new battery from flopping around (it is much smaller than the old lead
> acid one) he inserted DOW HI (blue board foam) insulation around the four
> sides. I don't recall seeing any insulation under or over the battery. My
> question: Is this insulation OK or is there a chance that the battery
> could overheat if under heavy recharge? The installation looks nice and
> tidy and is very lightweight, but I'd like to make sure he is not set up
> for a problem in flight. Please comment if you can.
>
> Leo Holler
> leoh(at)gci.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=106925#106925
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <max.johansson(at)nokia.com> |
Vaughn
The advice by Bob is good and sound but the draft regulator
schematics he refers to on the aeroelectric pages has mistakes
and a much better schematic version can be found on the page:
http://contrails.free.fr/images/large_regulator_2006.png
as pointed out by Gilles Thesee. In short the C lead both
powers the SCR firing circuits as well as provides the
battery voltage sensing input for the voltage regulation.
BR, Max
Flying and wiring 912s in Helsinki
> The C is indeed a control circuit and must power the regulator at all
> times when the engine is running. When the engine is shut off it too
> too(C terminal) must disconnect, or the battery will drain.
> The C lead must be in contact at all times while running or the
> regulator would fail internally.
>
> An analysis of the schematic for the Ducati regulator
> supplied with Rotax engines . . .
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/regul_912.jpg
>
> . . . confirms that the C terminal supplies operating power
> for the low level electronics along with a path for bus voltage
> sensing. Opening this lead while the engine running simply shuts
> the regulator down assuming that input voltages from the
> dynamo do not soar to deleterious levels . . . doubtful but
> I have no way to prove it.
>
> Further, their admonition about disconnecting "C" when
> powered down to avoid battery drain is valid for systems
> that do not have battery contactors or switches (like
> ultralights I suppose).
>
> Their response is typical of many suppliers who are exceedingly
> limited in their understanding of the product they sell and
> variabilities in how their customers might properly use
> those products. In a nutshell . . . wire per Figure Z-16
> of . . .
>
>http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf
>
> . . . and do not concern yourself with any disagreement
> you may perceive between the little information they have
> to offer and well considered advice you might receive
> elsewhere. It's unlikely that anyone on staff at your
> supplier can discuss applications and options with
> any logic. They're only parroting information fed to them
> by others who are equally un-informed as to how you meet
> your design goals.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Windhorn" <N1DeltaWhiskey(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery insulation |
In addition to the issues of possible heat buildup, chemical interaction,
hard landing consequences, and FAA requirements, you might want to consider
the blue plastic is most likely extruded polystyrene, one of the most
combustible of expanded plastics. Expanded polyiso insulation would be
better in that regard, but may be worse chemically (the rest of the name is
...isocyanurate!).
To me, the idea does not seem too cool. If you need the 337 for the AI to
buy off on this, could that include elimination of the battery box
altogether? In lieu of the box, install a properly anchored platform and
tie-down for the battery.
FWIW, Doug Windhorn (thankful I have an experimental).
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell(at)telus.net>
Sent: Saturday, 14 April, 2007 19:38
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery insulation
>
> Leo,
>
> Without regard to FAA regs etc;
>
> Just a guess, I doubt there should be a problem with the battery box
> stuffed as described.
>
> If you used a hole saw to punch the foam full of holes the insulating
> quality of the foam would be reduced somewhat.
> Also the drilled foam would be less resistant to being crushed and
> therefore move out of the way reducing the chance of structural damage
> should the "overheating" or dying battery begin to expand.
> Who knows what would become of the battery in a crash scenario?
>
>
> Jim in Kelowna
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Leo Holler" <leoh(at)gci.net>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 1:16 PM
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery insulation
>
>
>>
>> A friend has a Cherokee 140 with an original battery box beneath the rear
>> seat. He has replaced the lead acid battery with a 16 AH RG battery. The
>> RG battery is oriented the same as the lead acid battery had been. To
>> keep the new battery from flopping around (it is much smaller than the
>> old lead acid one) he inserted DOW HI (blue board foam) insulation around
>> the four sides. I don't recall seeing any insulation under or over the
>> battery. My question: Is this insulation OK or is there a chance that the
>> battery could overheat if under heavy recharge? The installation looks
>> nice and tidy and is very lightweight, but I'd like to make sure he is
>> not set up for a problem in flight. Please comment if you can.
>>
>> Leo Holler
>> leoh(at)gci.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=106925#106925
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gaye and Vaughn" <vaughnray(at)bvunet.net> |
Thank you Sir,
Unfortunately, I am so far from being able to understand the regulator
schematic that you sent, it might as well be a woman. Bob's Z-16, rev 11
does keep the R, B+, and C leads connected as Lockwood likes. Breaking
one yellow lead with the relay seems to isolate the internal alternator
from the rest of the system. Since I will have a 40 amp externally
mounted alternator as my primary power source and the internal
alternator is "idling" unless the 40 amp ddevelops a problem, I'm
wonderig if the Z-16 architecture is appropriate to my needs.
Vaughn Teegarden
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gaye and Vaughn" <vaughnray(at)bvunet.net> |
Thank you Sir,
Unfortunately, I am so far from being able to understand the regulator
schematic that you sent, it might as well be a woman. Bob's Z-16, rev 11
does keep the R, B+, and C leads connected as Lockwood likes. Breaking
one yellow lead with the relay seems to isolate the internal alternator
from the rest of the system. Since I will have a 40 amp externally
mounted alternator as my primary power source and the internal
alternator is "idling" unless the 40 amp ddevelops a problem, I'm
wonderig if the Z-16 architecture is appropriate to my needs.
Vaughn Teegarden
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric Whiteside" <erwhites(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | interesting failure(s) |
I thought the List might be interested in this sequence of failures.
Aircraft is an A36 Bonanza.
When 10 miles out on approach to St. Pete, the right seat passenger said
he
smelled burning insulation.
The pilot did not notice anything. He dropped gear, flaps, landed and
taxied in without incident.
All appeared normal with the exception of the JPI EGT/CHT/Fuel Flow
instrument, which had gone dark at some point.
The pilot turned off the master switch, but then noticed the strobe was
still flashing and there continued to be power to the panel, radios,
etc.
The pilot disconnected a battery cable to interrupt power. I flew in
shortly after and attempted to diagnose the problem.
Based on the pilot=92s description of events, I assumed the master
contactor
had welded itself closed,
but measurements with a borrowed VOM showed no continuity across the
contactor main terminals.
Further investigation uncovered that the transorb devices attached to
the
contactor terminals had failed shorted
in such a way as to bridge current around the contactor. Measurements
showed
the contactor coil was failed open.
(All of these measurements were made out of circuit with wires & devices
isolated.)
When the mag/starter switch was subsequently turned to start, the
starter
twitched and the
transorbs instantly failed open due to the large starter current draw.
No current limiters had opened and no circuit breakers tripped.
The master contactor was replaced, the aircraft flown home and the JPI
instrument was removed and sent to the factory for repair.
There was an obvious burned smell inside the case.
My understanding is that on the Bonanza the alternator will continue to
power the buss when the master is turned off,
(or fails, as in this case). I assume that is why the large loads of
the
gear motor and flap motor were supported.
I would be interested in any analysis as to which might have been the
causes
and which might have been the effects,
of the failures described above. Is it likely that the contactor coil
failed open, and the resulting opening of the contactor
created some sort of transient that caused the transorbs to fail
shorted,
and which also damaged the JPI?
Or is some other sequence of events more likely?
Eric W.
--
9:36 PM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Windhorn" <N1DeltaWhiskey(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: curious questions |
I'll give this a shot - specific response embedded below.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael T. Ice
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, 14 April, 2007 8:33
Subject: AeroElectric-List: curious questions
Hello,
A friend of mine that occasionally helps me work on my RV-9 has
asked me some questions that I can't answer satisfactorily. He is a
great guy and has a very curious mind, he owns and works on boats, cars,
etc, but doesn't have a history with aircraft. These are the questions
in his own words posted below. Any help will be gratefully accepted.
In the course of helping a friend construct an RV 9 I had the
opportunity to examine the electrical system design. I was puzzled at
the use of a master relay (solenoid) to switch the entire electrical
system. A number of questions occurred to me regarding this design:
The questions: How much amperage draw does the solenoid consume
simply being energized? At what voltage does the Solenoid release? And
why this design? >> Figure an amp, more or less. It won't release
until the voltage/current drops below the battery's capabilty to deliver
any useful power anywhere - see additional below. What other design
would you propose, and why? Do you know how it will work?
It seems to me inserting the master relay (solenoid) into the
electrical system has no benefit and some detriment. >> My take is that
it has significant benefits and few detriments - just depends on one's
perspective.
The detriments are: 1. constant draw on battery when energized. >>
When is this a problem - really for a few minutes before startup, after
shutdown, or when wanting to check the electrical without the alternator
being online. Otherwise, the alternator provides the juice and the
battery is (or should be, if necessary, be taking a charge off the
altenator). For long on-the-ground battery only usage, an auxillary
supply should be used.
2. greater complexity. >> How so; compared to what alternate system?
See next question.
3. increased weight (all 6 oz of the solenoid) >> Bet one could
lose that much fat in a day - just trying to keep perspective here! But
seriously, the battery solenoid is nothing more than a switch capable of
handling the aircraft load continuously, and momentarily for starting
operations. What would a 60 amp continuous capable master switch on the
panel weigh, especially once you consider the additional weight of the
#8 or 10 wire from the battery to the panel, plus the fuse and holder
that will need to be installed at the battery. Using a panel switch and
relying on the starter solenoid for starting, you now have HOT wires
from the battery to the panel and to the starter - do you want these to
remain hot while you are contemplating ditching you plane and going into
an off runway landing? The remote solenoid disconnects both, rather
elegantly I think, and addresses these concerns.
4. failure of the complete electrical system if a) the solenoid fails,
or b) if you have alternator failure and voltage drops low enough to
allow the solenoid to not close/open (we have all heard the clicking of
the starter solenoid on a run down car battery- but the radios still
work). >> Since the solenoid is nothing more than a remotely located
and controlled switch, how is the failure rate significantly different
that a panel mounted switch (and associated and now necessary fuse) that
you would propose? Item b) does not seem a realistic concern to me.
The voltage will not drop low enough to open the solenoid until the
battery voltage/current is useless anyway. Emergency procedures would
have you shed load and an alternate switched feed path from the battery
to the essential will keep the necessary electric consumers active until
the battery delivers its load. OK, so the alternate feed path is not
much different from a master switch in the panel except that it can be
considerably smaller due to a lighter load capacity (10-12 amps vs.
40-60) during emergency use.
Contrast this with the benefit- uh- what benefit? There is the same
amount of current flowing to the panel from the battery whether it comes
via the relay or via a straight run to a master switch. Starter current
continues to utilize the starter solenoid. Alternator output current can
be routed directly to the battery since the field voltage can be turned
off via the master switch (and as I understand the design, inserting a
fuse in the alternator output line). >> Don't quite understand the
line of thinking here. See above item 3 for the benefits. Think about
your emergency procedures with the recommended design vs. whatever
alternate you system you can come up with. Either system may work fine
in normal operations - its the abnormal operations that needs to be
thrown into the mix. For sure, one does not want hot wires in an
emergency landing situation - they will provide a source of ignition for
the fuel likely to be leaked.
My limited knowledge may be impeding my appreciation of the function
of the master relay- but I have been pondering this- and can't come up
with a good rationale. On large aircraft, where you have significant
electrical loads that are distant from the cockpit, it would make sense
to use a relay so that you minimize voltage drop and/or weight by
eliminating long wiring runs. But this doesn't seem to be the case here.
The argument regarding electromagnetic fields near radios does not hold
up since the loads are the same whether switched through a relay or not.
>> As you say, not really relevant parameters to the design.
I guess the bottom line is- There are some VERY smart people building
these aircraft. Surely there is a good reason for the master relay
design- I just want to know what it is? >> I can't say my explanation
is all of the reasons for the design, but it makes sense to me.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DIY Intercom System |
| From: | "hansriet" <hansinla(at)mac.com> |
Thanks for all the advise.
I decided to use my time to build the plane and bought an used intercom on eBay.
Hans
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=107159#107159
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael T. Ice" <aurbo(at)ak.net> |
| Subject: | Re: curious questions |
Doug,
Thanks for the very good reply. I forwarded this to my friend and I am
sure he will like it better than my usual, "Because that is the way it
says to do it on the Z-11 drawing".
Mike Ice
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Windhorn
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 9:01 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: curious questions
I'll give this a shot - specific response embedded below.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael T. Ice
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, 14 April, 2007 8:33
Subject: AeroElectric-List: curious questions
Hello,
A friend of mine that occasionally helps me work on my RV-9 has
asked me some questions that I can't answer satisfactorily. He is a
great guy and has a very curious mind, he owns and works on boats, cars,
etc, but doesn't have a history with aircraft. These are the questions
in his own words posted below. Any help will be gratefully accepted.
In the course of helping a friend construct an RV 9 I had the
opportunity to examine the electrical system design. I was puzzled at
the use of a master relay (solenoid) to switch the entire electrical
system. A number of questions occurred to me regarding this design:
The questions: How much amperage draw does the solenoid consume
simply being energized? At what voltage does the Solenoid release? And
why this design? >> Figure an amp, more or less. It won't release
until the voltage/current drops below the battery's capabilty to deliver
any useful power anywhere - see additional below. What other design
would you propose, and why? Do you know how it will work?
It seems to me inserting the master relay (solenoid) into the
electrical system has no benefit and some detriment. >> My take is that
it has significant benefits and few detriments - just depends on one's
perspective.
The detriments are: 1. constant draw on battery when energized. >>
When is this a problem - really for a few minutes before startup, after
shutdown, or when wanting to check the electrical without the alternator
being online. Otherwise, the alternator provides the juice and the
battery is (or should be, if necessary, be taking a charge off the
altenator). For long on-the-ground battery only usage, an auxillary
supply should be used.
2. greater complexity. >> How so; compared to what alternate
system? See next question.
3. increased weight (all 6 oz of the solenoid) >> Bet one could
lose that much fat in a day - just trying to keep perspective here! But
seriously, the battery solenoid is nothing more than a switch capable of
handling the aircraft load continuously, and momentarily for starting
operations. What would a 60 amp continuous capable master switch on the
panel weigh, especially once you consider the additional weight of the
#8 or 10 wire from the battery to the panel, plus the fuse and holder
that will need to be installed at the battery. Using a panel switch and
relying on the starter solenoid for starting, you now have HOT wires
from the battery to the panel and to the starter - do you want these to
remain hot while you are contemplating ditching you plane and going into
an off runway landing? The remote solenoid disconnects both, rather
elegantly I think, and addresses these concerns.
4. failure of the complete electrical system if a) the solenoid
fails, or b) if you have alternator failure and voltage drops low enough
to allow the solenoid to not close/open (we have all heard the clicking
of the starter solenoid on a run down car battery- but the radios still
work). >> Since the solenoid is nothing more than a remotely located
and controlled switch, how is the failure rate significantly different
that a panel mounted switch (and associated and now necessary fuse) that
you would propose? Item b) does not seem a realistic concern to me.
The voltage will not drop low enough to open the solenoid until the
battery voltage/current is useless anyway. Emergency procedures would
have you shed load and an alternate switched feed path from the battery
to the essential will keep the necessary electric consumers active until
the battery delivers its load. OK, so the alternate feed path is not
much different from a master switch in the panel except that it can be
considerably smaller due to a lighter load capacity (10-12 amps vs.
40-60) during emergency use.
Contrast this with the benefit- uh- what benefit? There is the
same amount of current flowing to the panel from the battery whether it
comes via the relay or via a straight run to a master switch. Starter
current continues to utilize the starter solenoid. Alternator output
current can be routed directly to the battery since the field voltage
can be turned off via the master switch (and as I understand the design,
inserting a fuse in the alternator output line). >> Don't quite
understand the line of thinking here. See above item 3 for the
benefits. Think about your emergency procedures with the recommended
design vs. whatever alternate you system you can come up with. Either
system may work fine in normal operations - its the abnormal operations
that needs to be thrown into the mix. For sure, one does not want hot
wires in an emergency landing situation - they will provide a source of
ignition for the fuel likely to be leaked.
My limited knowledge may be impeding my appreciation of the function
of the master relay- but I have been pondering this- and can't come up
with a good rationale. On large aircraft, where you have significant
electrical loads that are distant from the cockpit, it would make sense
to use a relay so that you minimize voltage drop and/or weight by
eliminating long wiring runs. But this doesn't seem to be the case here.
The argument regarding electromagnetic fields near radios does not hold
up since the loads are the same whether switched through a relay or not.
>> As you say, not really relevant parameters to the design.
I guess the bottom line is- There are some VERY smart people
building these aircraft. Surely there is a good reason for the master
relay design- I just want to know what it is? >> I can't say my
explanation is all of the reasons for the design, but it makes sense to
me.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY Intercom System |
Smart decision.
Carlos
----- Original Message -----
From: "hansriet" <hansinla(at)mac.com>
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 12:19 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: DIY Intercom System
>
> Thanks for all the advise.
> I decided to use my time to build the plane and bought an used intercom on
> eBay.
>
> Hans
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=107159#107159
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery insulation |
>
>A friend has a Cherokee 140 with an original battery box beneath the rear
>seat. He has replaced the lead acid battery with a 16 AH RG battery. The
>RG battery is oriented the same as the lead acid battery had been. To keep
>the new battery from flopping around (it is much smaller than the old lead
>acid one) he inserted DOW HI (blue board foam) insulation around the four
>sides. I don't recall seeing any insulation under or over the battery. My
>question: Is this insulation OK or is there a chance that the battery
>could overheat if under heavy recharge?
No
> The installation looks nice and tidy and is very lightweight, but I'd
> like to make sure he is not set up for a problem in flight. Please
> comment if you can.
The foam will be fine and lighter than plywood. We did
use thin plywood to fill the gap around an RG battery
when we STC'd the first B&C product onto the C-150 and
many other airplanes later. But with greater thickness
you're discussing, the foam would be better.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-16-not Z-11 |
>Hi all you people who prabably have functioning brain cells left. Here is
>my message again with the proper heading. It seems that I can't
>destinguish between "Z" and "Rev".
>
>I have attempted to incorporate the new rev 11 rotax alternator system
>into my dual alt system, as Mike Gregory suggested. PDF file attached. I
>have also incorporated several changes made by list members because they
>made too much sense to ignore. BOB, does this give me security in the air.
>Thank you all.
Why the changes in switch functions described
in Figure Z-13/20? Have you done a load analysis?
How much of your 40A alternator is "used up" in
max draw cruising conditions?
Bob . . ..
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rtitsworth" <rtitsworth(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Battery insulation |
Bob, etal,
If a foam spacer is not a problem, is there any thought behind using
something similar to help insulate/isolate a battery from the ships
vibration like thin rubber (baffling matgerial) or thin memory foam, etc.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 10:09 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery insulation
>
>A friend has a Cherokee 140 with an original battery box beneath the rear
>seat. He has replaced the lead acid battery with a 16 AH RG battery. The
>RG battery is oriented the same as the lead acid battery had been. To keep
>the new battery from flopping around (it is much smaller than the old lead
>acid one) he inserted DOW HI (blue board foam) insulation around the four
>sides. I don't recall seeing any insulation under or over the battery. My
>question: Is this insulation OK or is there a chance that the battery
>could overheat if under heavy recharge?
No
> The installation looks nice and tidy and is very lightweight, but I'd
> like to make sure he is not set up for a problem in flight. Please
> comment if you can.
The foam will be fine and lighter than plywood. We did
use thin plywood to fill the gap around an RG battery
when we STC'd the first B&C product onto the C-150 and
many other airplanes later. But with greater thickness
you're discussing, the foam would be better.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net> |
| Subject: | Battery insulation |
What about the expanding foam from a aerosol can commonly used for
insulating around doors/windows etc.
Bevan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
rtitsworth
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 9:29 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery insulation
-->
Bob, etal,
If a foam spacer is not a problem, is there any thought behind using
something similar to help insulate/isolate a battery from the ships
vibration like thin rubber (baffling matgerial) or thin memory foam, etc.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 10:09 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery insulation
>
>A friend has a Cherokee 140 with an original battery box beneath the
>rear seat. He has replaced the lead acid battery with a 16 AH RG
>battery. The RG battery is oriented the same as the lead acid battery
>had been. To keep the new battery from flopping around (it is much
>smaller than the old lead acid one) he inserted DOW HI (blue board
>foam) insulation around the four sides. I don't recall seeing any
>insulation under or over the battery. My
>question: Is this insulation OK or is there a chance that the battery
>could overheat if under heavy recharge?
No
> The installation looks nice and tidy and is very lightweight, but I'd
> like to make sure he is not set up for a problem in flight. Please
> comment if you can.
The foam will be fine and lighter than plywood. We did
use thin plywood to fill the gap around an RG battery
when we STC'd the first B&C product onto the C-150 and
many other airplanes later. But with greater thickness
you're discussing, the foam would be better.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net> |
| Subject: | Formation flying attenuator |
Bob,
You have a drawing for "Formation flying attenuator". I'm wondering if I
will need this. Can you tell me if I will need this? My radios are SL30
and SL60.
Bevan
RV7A wiring
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery insulation |
>In a message dated 4/14/2007 8:13:28 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
>leoh(at)gci.net writes:
>Bob,
>
>The battery is not approved for the Cherokee but is FAA PMA' d and
>approved for many others I'm told. They will need a 337 to finish the
>install per his AI.
>
>Leo
>Thank You Leo,
>
>In the event something leaks, has anyone yet investigated the suitability
>of the foam when it gets involved with corrosive gases? May not be
>considered a problem, but --- ??
>
RG batteries don't leak.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Formation flying attenuator |
>Bob,
>
>You have a drawing for "Formation flying attenuator". I'm wondering if I
>will need this. Can you tell me if I will need this? My radios are SL30
>and SL60.
Don't know until you try it. And the value of a formation
flying attenuator cuts both ways. Maybe YOUR receiver doesn't
strangle on very strong signals but others in the formation
might. The attenuator attenuates both your incoming signal
and outgoing signal.
The repeatable experiment is the final arbiter.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery insulation |
>
>
>In addition to the issues of possible heat buildup, chemical interaction,
>hard landing consequences, and FAA requirements, you might want to
>consider the blue plastic is most likely extruded polystyrene, one of the
>most combustible of expanded plastics. Expanded polyiso insulation would
>be better in that regard, but may be worse chemically (the rest of the
>name is ...isocyanurate!).
>
>To me, the idea does not seem too cool. If you need the 337 for the AI to
>buy off on this, could that include elimination of the battery box
>altogether? In lieu of the box, install a properly anchored platform and
>tie-down for the battery.
Best idea yet.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: curious questions |
>Doug,
>
>Thanks for the very good reply. I forwarded this to my friend and I am
>sure he will like it better than my usual, "Because that is the way it
>says to do it on the Z-11 drawing".
Good job Doug.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: interesting failure(s) |
Why would anyone bridge a contactor with a transorb? AFAIK transorbs
should always go to ground.
Ken
Eric Whiteside wrote:
> I thought the List might be interested in this sequence of failures.
> Aircraft is an A36 Bonanza.
>
> When 10 miles out on approach to St. Pete, the right seat passenger
> said he smelled burning insulation.
>
> The pilot did not notice anything. He dropped gear, flaps, landed and
> taxied in without incident.
>
> All appeared normal with the exception of the JPI EGT/CHT/Fuel Flow
> instrument, which had gone dark at some point.
>
> The pilot turned off the master switch, but then noticed the strobe
> was still flashing and there continued to be power to the panel,
> radios, etc.
>
> The pilot disconnected a battery cable to interrupt power. I flew in
> shortly after and attempted to diagnose the problem.
>
>
>
> Based on the pilots description of events, I assumed the master
> contactor had welded itself closed,
>
> but measurements with a borrowed VOM showed no continuity across the
> contactor main terminals.
>
> Further investigation uncovered that the transorb devices attached to
> the contactor terminals had failed shorted
>
> in such a way as to bridge current around the contactor. Measurements
> showed the contactor coil was failed open.
>
> (All of these measurements were made out of circuit with wires &
> devices isolated.)
>
>
>
> When the mag/starter switch was subsequently turned to start, the
> starter twitched and the
>
> transorbs instantly failed open due to the large starter current draw.
>
>
>
> No current limiters had opened and no circuit breakers tripped.
>
>
>
> The master contactor was replaced, the aircraft flown home and the JPI
> instrument was removed and sent to the factory for repair.
>
> There was an obvious burned smell inside the case.
>
>
>
> My understanding is that on the Bonanza the alternator will continue
> to power the buss when the master is turned off,
>
> (or fails, as in this case). I assume that is why the large loads of
> the gear motor and flap motor were supported.
>
>
>
> I would be interested in any analysis as to which might have been the
> causes and which might have been the effects,
>
> of the failures described above. Is it likely that the contactor coil
> failed open, and the resulting opening of the contactor
>
> created some sort of transient that caused the transorbs to fail
> shorted, and which also damaged the JPI?
>
>
>
> Or is some other sequence of events more likely?
>
>
>
> Eric W.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: interesting failure(s) |
>I thought the List might be interested in this sequence of
>failures. Aircraft is an A36 Bonanza.
>
>When 10 miles out on approach to St. Pete, the right seat passenger said
>he smelled burning insulation.
>
>The pilot did not notice anything. He dropped gear, flaps, landed and
>taxied in without incident.
>
>All appeared normal with the exception of the JPI EGT/CHT/Fuel Flow
>instrument, which had gone dark at some point.
>
>The pilot turned off the master switch, but then noticed the strobe was
>still flashing and there continued to be power to the panel, radios, etc.
>
>The pilot disconnected a battery cable to interrupt power. I flew in
>shortly after and attempted to diagnose the problem.
>
>
>Based on the pilot s description of events, I assumed the master contactor
>had welded itself closed,
>
>but measurements with a borrowed VOM showed no continuity across the
>contactor main terminals.
>
>Further investigation uncovered that the transorb devices attached to the
>contactor terminals had failed shorted
>
>in such a way as to bridge current around the contactor. Measurements
>showed the contactor coil was failed open.
>
>(All of these measurements were made out of circuit with wires & devices
>isolated.)
>
>
>When the mag/starter switch was subsequently turned to start, the starter
>twitched and the
>
>transorbs instantly failed open due to the large starter current draw.
>
>
>No current limiters had opened and no circuit breakers tripped.
>
>
>The master contactor was replaced, the aircraft flown home and the JPI
>instrument was removed and sent to the factory for repair.
>
>There was an obvious burned smell inside the case.
>
>
>My understanding is that on the Bonanza the alternator will continue to
>power the buss when the master is turned off,
>
>(or fails, as in this case). I assume that is why the large loads of the
>gear motor and flap motor were supported.
>
>
>I would be interested in any analysis as to which might have been the
>causes and which might have been the effects,
>
>of the failures described above. Is it likely that the contactor coil
>failed open, and the resulting opening of the contactor
>
>created some sort of transient that caused the transorbs to fail shorted,
>and which also damaged the JPI?
>
>
>Or is some other sequence of events more likely?
Your hypothesis is pretty well supported by the simple ideas.
I can't think of an alternative scenario at the moment. Yes,
this series of Beechcraft products offer independent control
of battery and alternator. The alternators on these aircraft will
self excite and the folks at Beech wanted to take advantage of
an alternative mode of operation should the battery contactor
fail.
I wasn't aware that there were transorbs around the fat-terminals
of these contactors. I'll pull the drawings today and see if
I can find when they might have been added. I'm suspicious that
someone else sprinkled these on at some later time.
Failure in the JPI device was probably a separate incident
promoted by some perturbation on the bus when the battery
went off line. I designed a regulator for Beech that was
specified not to interfere with the self-exciting nature
of Beech's alternators but here were no specifications for
voltage regulator dynamic response with a battery off line.
I did a Google site search for DO-160 on JPI's website
and found ONE and only ONE reference to this valuable
test plan . . . and that refererence was exceedingly
brief and short of information.
Getting to wear the DO-160 gold star on your butt
for having successfully jumped all the DO-160 hoops
is not a trivial task. Had they rigorously applied all
the suggested criteria in the design of their products,
I would think that this fact would have been prominently
cited on the literature for all their products. Given
the short shrift offered on their literature with respect
to DO-160, I'm guessing that the instrument died as
a result of an abnormal but predictable voltage
excursion that did not affect other systems.
I can find no error in your hypothesis sir. I'll check
into the Transorb thing.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: interesting failure(s) |
>
>Why would anyone bridge a contactor with a transorb? AFAIK transorbs
>should always go to ground.
>Ken
Or across the offending antagonist . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ron Brown" <romott(at)roadrunner.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Flight Tech Intercom and Microair 760 COM |
I am pulling all my hair out trying to figure out why a friend's intercom
and COM radio aren't working together.
This is a Flight Tech 402 panel mounted intercom and a Microair 760 COM
radio. The intercom works - pilot and copilot can communicate with each
other, both can hear radio transmissions but neither can transmit on the
radio. The transmit light comes on, when the PTT is pressed, the squelch is
broken (ie carrier is being transmitted, but no audio). Turning the
intercom off has the same results.
I have rung the wiring out, checked continuity and grounds and made sure
there are shorts.
I can remove the intercom, and place jumpers between pins 2-3 (headphone);
6-7 (pilot mike) and 9-10 (PTT), and the radio works just perfectly.
When checking the intercom on the bench, I get continuity between each of
the pairs above (diode present on 9-10).
What's my problem?????????
THANKS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Flight Tech Intercom and Microair 760 COM |
Hi Ron
You might want to call or email Flighttech? There was a circuit board
glitch in their early production boards that caused transmit problems
specifically with the icom radio. And although very rare, it is always
possible to have a bad transmit relay. You should hear the relay click
if you put your ear by the intercom when you key the mic. I think
you'll find the support and warranty is excellant and I am sure
delighted with that intercom.
Ken
Ron Brown wrote:
>
>
> I am pulling all my hair out trying to figure out why a friend's
> intercom and COM radio aren't working together.
>
> This is a Flight Tech 402 panel mounted intercom and a Microair 760
> COM radio. The intercom works - pilot and copilot can communicate
> with each other, both can hear radio transmissions but neither can
> transmit on the radio. The transmit light comes on, when the PTT is
> pressed, the squelch is broken (ie carrier is being transmitted, but
> no audio). Turning the intercom off has the same results.
>
> I have rung the wiring out, checked continuity and grounds and made
> sure there are shorts.
>
> I can remove the intercom, and place jumpers between pins 2-3
> (headphone); 6-7 (pilot mike) and 9-10 (PTT), and the radio works just
> perfectly.
>
> When checking the intercom on the bench, I get continuity between each
> of the pairs above (diode present on 9-10).
>
> What's my problem?????????
>
> THANKS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: interesting failure(s) |
>
>
> I can find no error in your hypothesis sir. I'll check
> into the Transorb thing.
>
> Bob . . .
I dug through some F33 and A36 drawings today and as far
as I had time to research today, the first diodes to go
onto the battery master contactor was a pair of 1N4007,
1A devices from EACH fat terminal to the (+) side of the
coil terminal this permitted a battery contactor to close
using power from either a good battery or a bus powered from
ground power. Our ground power jacks drove the bus
side of the battery contactor . . . so the diodes made
sure that you could get the contactor closed from
ground power if the battery were dead. See . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/Early_Battery_Master.jpg
Some years later, a 1.5KE51CA (bi-directional, 51v TVS)
was added across the coil of the battery contactor. See . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/Later_Battery_Master.jpg
I wasn't able to chase down the 14v versions in the time
I had but some graybeards told me that the first airplanes
had no diodes at all and one of the thought some models
added diodes across the coil later.
In any case, what you saw on the problem aircraft could
have been a combination of two diodes between the contactor
fat terminals . . . and perhaps a TVS across the coild.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: interesting failure(s) |
| From: | Ron Quillin <rjquillin(at)gmail.com> |
At 20:52 4/16/2007, you wrote:
>
> I dug through some F33 and A36 drawings today and as far
> as I had time to research today, the first diodes to go
> onto the battery master contactor was a pair of 1N4007,
> 1A devices from EACH fat terminal to the (+) side of the
> coil terminal this permitted a battery contactor to close
> using power from either a good battery or a bus powered from
> ground power.
>Our ground power jacks drove the bus
> side of the battery contactor . . . so the diodes made
> sure that you could get the contactor closed from
> ground power if the battery were dead. See . . .
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/Early_Battery_Master.jpg
From the early jpg you posted, and it's a bit difficult to clearly
see, it appears CR24 has it's anode connected to the coil of K15 and
the cathode to the battery and fat terminal of K15. If this is
correct, this diode would be reverse biased by the battery and could
not provide any current to the relay coil, but rather a discharge
path for the collapsing field of the relay when de-energized. Diode
CR25 OTOH, with it's cathode connected to the coil, would provide a
current path for energizing power to the relay, assuming a voltage
was present on bus M24 or M25(?). So, as drawn, K15 would only be
energized with power on the M bus and with S29 closed.
Is this an error in the schematic or just an artifact of the scan?
> Some years later, a 1.5KE51CA (bi-directional, 51v TVS)
> was added across the coil of the battery contactor. See . . .
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/Later_Battery_Master.jpg
On the later jpg, both CR24 and CR25 appear to have their cathodes
connected to the high coil terminal. With S29 closed and energizing
voltage present at either the M bus or battery the coil and relay, as
you state, could be energized. This seems like the correct configuration.
> I wasn't able to chase down the 14v versions in the time
> I had but some graybeards told me that the first airplanes
> had no diodes at all and one of the thought some models
> added diodes across the coil later.
>
> In any case, what you saw on the problem aircraft could
> have been a combination of two diodes between the contactor
> fat terminals . . . and perhaps a TVS across the coild.
>
> Bob . . .
Interesting thread,
Thanks
Ron Q.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <psiegel(at)fuse.net> |
| Subject: | Key start switch/magneto problem |
I have an intermittent problem with which I could use some help.
I have a left/right/both/ start switch activated by a key. On the left circuit
is a Lightspeed electronic ignition and on the right circuit is a traditional
magneto.
I went to fly the other day, and after start up, I had no RPM information on the
Grand Rapids engine instruments display. I tried a run-up test, and when going
from "both" to "right", the engine stopped running, but would come back to
life when either "both" or "left" was selected.
The next day I tried it again and everything worked normally?
Any advice on where to begin troubleshooting? Keyed mag/starter switch? Magneto?
Thanks in advance for any advice!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: interesting failure(s) |
>
>At 20:52 4/16/2007, you wrote:
>>
>> I dug through some F33 and A36 drawings today and as far
>> as I had time to research today, the first diodes to go
>> onto the battery master contactor was a pair of 1N4007,
>> 1A devices from EACH fat terminal to the (+) side of the
>> coil terminal this permitted a battery contactor to close
>> using power from either a good battery or a bus powered from
>> ground power.
>>Our ground power jacks drove the bus
>> side of the battery contactor . . . so the diodes made
>> sure that you could get the contactor closed from
>> ground power if the battery were dead. See . . .
>>
>>http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/Early_Battery_Master.jpg
>
> From the early jpg you posted, and it's a bit difficult to clearly see,
> it appears CR24 has it's anode connected to the coil of K15 and the
> cathode to the battery and fat terminal of K15. If this is correct, this
> diode would be reverse biased by the battery and could not provide any
> current to the relay coil, but rather a discharge path for the collapsing
> field of the relay when de-energized. Diode CR25 OTOH, with it's cathode
> connected to the coil, would provide a current path for energizing power
> to the relay, assuming a voltage was present on bus M24 or M25(?). So,
> as drawn, K15 would only be energized with power on the M bus and with
> S29 closed.
>
>Is this an error in the schematic or just an artifact of the scan?
Crummy proportionality in our schematics of that era.
I've cleaned it up a bit.
>> Some years later, a 1.5KE51CA (bi-directional, 51v TVS)
>> was added across the coil of the battery contactor. See . . .
>>
>>http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/Later_Battery_Master.jpg
>
>On the later jpg, both CR24 and CR25 appear to have their cathodes
>connected to the high coil terminal. With S29 closed and energizing
>voltage present at either the M bus or battery the coil and relay, as you
>state, could be energized. This seems like the correct configuration.
Yeah. I've cleaned that one up a bit too . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sam Marlow <sam(at)fr8dog.net> |
Is this unit, (ACE9011), suitable for use on an internal regulated
alternator, and if not, what should I do to reduce my vulnerably to over
voltage on a Van's 60 amp alt?
Thanks,
Sam Marlow
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Key start switch/magneto problem |
>
>I have an intermittent problem with which I could use some help.
>
>I have a left/right/both/ start switch activated by a key. On the left
>circuit is a Lightspeed electronic ignition and on the right circuit is a
>traditional magneto.
>
>I went to fly the other day, and after start up, I had no RPM information
>on the Grand Rapids engine instruments display. I tried a run-up test,
>and when going from "both" to "right", the engine stopped running, but
>would come back to life when either "both" or "left" was selected.
>
>
>The next day I tried it again and everything worked normally?
>
>Any advice on where to begin troubleshooting? Keyed mag/starter
>switch? Magneto?
>
>Thanks in advance for any advice!
Don't know what advice to give. The transient event
is essentially impossible to troubleshoot when it
won't hold still long enough to diagnosed. Which
system drives the RPM display. Which system is designated
the "right" system. If the right system is the source
for tachometer info, then the symptoms you cite point
to a transient failure of that system. Until it
happens again and stays broke, the best you can
do is wiggle all the joints and see if you can find
anything loose.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Key start switch/magneto problem |
psiegel(at)fuse.net wrote:
>
> I have an intermittent problem with which I could use some help.
>
> I have a left/right/both/ start switch activated by a key. On the left circuit
is a Lightspeed electronic ignition and on the right circuit is a traditional
magneto.
>
> I went to fly the other day, and after start up, I had no RPM information on
the Grand Rapids engine instruments display. I tried a run-up test, and when
going from "both" to "right", the engine stopped running, but would come back
to life when either "both" or "left" was selected.
>
>
> The next day I tried it again and everything worked normally?
>
> Any advice on where to begin troubleshooting? Keyed mag/starter switch? Magneto?
>
> Thanks in advance for any advice!
Does the mag p-lead drive the GR tach? If so, it sounds like the mag's
p-lead is still grounded even when you select it with the switch.
I'd lift the p-lead from the switch & see if it will run on the mag. If
not, then I'd break the connection between the p-lead & the GR tach.
(might be a problem in the tach keeping the p-lead grounded)
Oops, just read the line about it being back to normal. Intermittent
sounds a lot like the switch, if you don't have any wires chafing
against the airframe anywhere.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ralph Hoover <hooverra(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Key start switch/magneto problem |
Several avenues exist to isolate this problem.
1. Is the Grand Rapids Tach pick off isolated with a resistor ? If so
will grounding the Grand Rapids end kill the Mag. If not you can
eliminate the Grand Rapids as the root cause. If it is not isolated
check with Grand Rapids for recommendations.
2. With the tach pick off eliminated disconnect the P lead from the Mag
and connect an Ohm meter. On the lowest scale the switch should show a
short when in the off or left positions. with the switch in both it
should be open. Now do the wiggle test. If you do not see a short appear
don't quit!!
3. Have you used shielded wire for the switch connection? Visually
verify the points where the shield is terminated. Neatness is the key
here. Are there any whiskers of the shield loose. Has the center
conductor been nicked?
4. Check the length of the wire for damage. If it is pinched or chaffed
then you could develop a short.
5. The least likely would be foreign material floating around inside the
Mag switch but if nothing else is found I would visually inspect the switch.
6. The last unlikely thing would be a bad Capacitor, Coil or foreign
material in the Mag.
7. If the Grand Rapids was not isolated and you isolate it then an
intermittent on the GR side may still allow the tach function to fail
without killing the mag. If this occurs a similar look at wiring to the
GR is in order.
The school of thought that it must be in the failure mode to find it is
partially true but I suggest that in such a simple installation that the
root cause of the problem will be obvious if you look close enough.
Remember It's only magic until you understand.
--
Ralph C. Hoover
RV7A
hooverra at verizon dot net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
>Is this unit, (ACE9011), suitable for use on an internal regulated
>alternator, and if not, what should I do to reduce my vulnerably to over
>voltage on a Van's 60 amp alt?
>Thanks,
>Sam Marlow
No, the AEC9011 is for externally regulated
alternators and generators including the
permanent magnet systems.
An internally regulated alternator either
requires modification to bring field control
wires to the outside or adding some external
means of exercising absolute control over
the alternator. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Adapting_IR_Alternators_to_Aircraft.pdf
If you're interested in using the AEC9004
under development, you can install the interim
technique described on the second sheet of
the document cited above. This will lay
the groundwork for an easily installed
AEC9004 system when it becomes available.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Papendick" <gandjpappy(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | PS Engineering PTT issue |
A friend at the airport has a PS Engineering PMA6000 in his Cherokee.
It had been working fine but after some work was done under the panel
the Pilot could no longer transmit. The intercom works fine but as soon
as you press the PTT button the pilots mic stops transmitting. It looks
like it could have something to do with the PTT maybe grounding out the
Mic audio? Any suggestions on where I might look if the jack is OK?
Thanks in advance for any assistance
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick Pearce" <rap(at)isp.com> |
I'm a regular on the Matronics Kolb web sight.
I have a STS hand held and a Flight Tech ITC-2001-ENRI intercom with
Flightcom Blackhawk 50x head sets. I could not find a patch cord to hook
up the radio. So I took it to a local aircraft radio repair shop to have
one made. The tech. is telling the two are not compatible, all he got
was a squeal. Can any one tell me if this is true? I came away with the
attuide that he just didn't want to screw with it. If they are
compatible does any one have a schematic?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Off to Sonoma, CA. |
Dr. Dee and I are packed and ready to hit the asphalt
for a departure from Kansas City tomorrow morning.
We're going to spend the weekend talking airplanes
with the folks at EAA Chapter 1268.
http://aeroelectric.com/seminars/Sonoma.html
If anyone decides that they'd like to take advantage
of this presentation, all you need to do is show up.
I'll be back on the List Monday.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Campbell" <gregcampbellusa(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Clamp On DC Multimeters... |
I stumbled across this clamp on DC ammeter at:
http://www.powerstream.com/DC-clamp.htm
Does anybody have any experience with these
or similar ones?
Thanks in advance,
Greg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Clamp On DC Multimeters... |
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Your first clue is that it is expensive...that tells you its about what
you should pay.
But answer me this...Why on Earth would you want to spend that kind of
money?...HArbor freights $2.50 multimeter has a 10A shunt (namely will
measure up to 10 amps) . This should be adequate for 1/100th of the
cost.
Incidently the HF multimeter is very accurate...at least mine is.
Frank
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg
Campbell
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 11:42 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Clamp On DC Multimeters...
I stumbled across this clamp on DC ammeter at:
http://www.powerstream.com/DC-clamp.htm
Does anybody have any experience with these
or similar ones?
Thanks in advance,
Greg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Clamp On DC Multimeters... |
| From: | "jetboy" <sanson.r(at)xtra.co.nz> |
Greg,
You might find a similar one for your needs at Newark / Farnell / Radiospares
catalogues. ISO - Tec is a nice small low cost type or go for a Fluke.
My one is 400 amps DC Sanwa and works well. If you are going to measure starter
currents you will need this range. This is a required item for diagnosing Rotax
912 problems as described in their SB. Clamp meters are very handy for checking
current drain and charging systems. A normal DMM with 20A range can do
most things but many of the clamp meters include the DMM functions too.
Ralph
--------
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108247#108247
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DIY Intercom System |
| From: | "az_gila" <gilalex(at)earthlink.net> |
I'd like to see a easy (cheap) audio mixer for use with a commercial intercom.
Simple panels probably only have 3 or 4 audio sources (including alerts) and a
full audio panel is way overkill. Most folks don't even use the speaker any more,
so phones only are OK.
I was thinking of a simple audio mixer and a Tx1/Tx2 switch.. perhaps from a ready
made kit... such as this one...
http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/FK652
Would like to hear other suggestions....
gil in Tucson
PS I got a working PM1000 intercom for $50 on e-bay, so the intercom bit is taken
care of...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108248#108248
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | PM ALTERNATOR AC OUTPUT |
| From: | "Peter H" <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com> |
Hi,,
I have only 0.2V AC output from the stator of my single phase PM alternator when
the battery is disconnected. Is this correct?
Is there any way to get full regulated DC output from a PM alternator if the battery
is isolated from it?
Thanks,
Peter H
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108255#108255
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Zener Diodes |
| From: | "Peter H" <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com> |
How about a series resistor, say a panel bulb. Choose the wattage to suit?
Peter H
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108256#108256
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: PM ALTERNATOR AC OUTPUT |
Hi Peter
I get over a 100 vac from mine like that depending on engine speed. It
isn't going to charge at all unless you have something like almost 20vac
going into the regulator rectifier. Are you sure you aren't measuring
with a DC meter?
Yes some of those units will operate with just a large capacitor and no
battery but I would hesitate to try that without a load connected unless
you know your combination of parts will do that.
Ken
Peter H wrote:
>
>Hi,,
>I have only 0.2V AC output from the stator of my single phase PM alternator when
the battery is disconnected. Is this correct?
>Is there any way to get full regulated DC output from a PM alternator if the battery
is isolated from it?
>Thanks,
>Peter H
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Clamp On DC Multimeters... |
For starter current diagnoses, I find that a very cheap automotive store
magnetic meter is sufficient. Not very accurate but for a couple of
dollars, good enough to detect excessive draw. You just hold it beside
the wire and the meter is directly deflected by the magnetism. With
$20. ac clamp on meters from China around now, I keep expecting to see a
cheap clamp on dc hall effect meter but I haven't seen one yet.
Ken
jetboy wrote:
>
>Greg,
> You might find a similar one for your needs at Newark / Farnell / Radiospares
catalogues. ISO - Tec is a nice small low cost type or go for a Fluke.
My one is 400 amps DC Sanwa and works well. If you are going to measure starter
currents you will need this range. This is a required item for diagnosing
Rotax 912 problems as described in their SB. Clamp meters are very handy for checking
current drain and charging systems. A normal DMM with 20A range can do
most things but many of the clamp meters include the DMM functions too.
>
>Ralph
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | PM ALTERNATOR AC OUTPUT |
Hi Ken,
Thanks for that. Today I checked it again and got a reading of 46VAC at idle
, then zero, then 0.2VAC and I think my multimeter is faulty. Then I found a
loose connection B+ to the regulator, fixed and it all works fine. I am
still puzzled because I saw 16V charge just before the system stopped in
flight and the alternator CB did not open. Ken I am interested in your
comment about the use of a capacitor. Is it connected across the two AC
leads? And what value? Have you got a reference I could follow up ?
Thanks,
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Saturday, 21 April 2007 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: PM ALTERNATOR AC OUTPUT
Hi Peter
I get over a 100 vac from mine like that depending on engine speed. It
isn't going to charge at all unless you have something like almost 20vac
going into the regulator rectifier. Are you sure you aren't measuring
with a DC meter?
Yes some of those units will operate with just a large capacitor and no
battery but I would hesitate to try that without a load connected unless
you know your combination of parts will do that.
Ken
Peter H wrote:
>
>Hi,,
>I have only 0.2V AC output from the stator of my single phase PM alternator
when the battery is disconnected. Is this correct?
>Is there any way to get full regulated DC output from a PM alternator if
the battery is isolated from it?
>Thanks,
>Peter H
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: PM ALTERNATOR AC OUTPUT |
Peter Harris a crit :
>
> Hi Ken,
> Thanks for that. Today I checked it again and got a reading of 46VAC at idle
> , then zero, then 0.2VAC and I think my multimeter is faulty. Then I found a
> loose connection B+ to the regulator, fixed and it all works fine. I am
> still puzzled because I saw 16V charge just before the system stopped in
> flight and the alternator CB did not open. Ken I am interested in your
> comment about the use of a capacitor. Is it connected across the two AC
> leads? And what value? Have you got a reference I could follow up ?
>
Peter,
You'll find the Z16 figure in Bob's Appendix Z most useful for your
application.
It applies to PM alternator engines such as the Rotax 91X but should
work just fine with a Jabiru.
Re the alternator CB you are referring to, this is a CURRENT related
device, and it won't react to an over VOLTAGE event. A CB or fuse is
intended to protect the wires from overheating.
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: PM ALTERNATOR AC OUTPUT |
Peter
If your meter has shorted diodes or is not switched to AC you can get
very inconsistant readings much like you saw although it sounds like
your problemt was just a loose connection.
Yes Gilles pointed you in the right direction for the capacitor. I think
Bob recommends at least 1,000 mfd per amp of alternator capacity so
typically 20,000 mfd. That seems to work fine with the B&C and the rotax
regulators I think but I don't know about others. I immediately
destroyed a John Deere regulator which was connected to a completely
dead battery (my mistake) but no capacitor. I only had about an amp of
other loads connected at startup as the battery was not taking any
current (which happens for awhile with a completly dead AGM battery). So
I conclude that with my particular setup, I'd want a capacitor and also
some way of keeping a reasonable load connected at all times to help
keep the voltage reasonable. It seems that my regulator can not handle
starting up with no load connected which might be the case if you were
expecting the alternator to close a battery contactor to connect it to
the load. Or maybe I would have been fine with a capacitor. In most
cases I do think these units would continue to run just fine if the
battery disconnected in flight.
Ken
Peter Harris wrote:
>
>Hi Ken,
>Thanks for that. Today I checked it again and got a reading of 46VAC at idle
>, then zero, then 0.2VAC and I think my multimeter is faulty. Then I found a
>loose connection B+ to the regulator, fixed and it all works fine. I am
>still puzzled because I saw 16V charge just before the system stopped in
>flight and the alternator CB did not open. Ken I am interested in your
>comment about the use of a capacitor. Is it connected across the two AC
>leads? And what value? Have you got a reference I could follow up ?
>Thanks,
>Peter
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
>Sent: Saturday, 21 April 2007 10:17 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: PM ALTERNATOR AC OUTPUT
>
>
>Hi Peter
>
>I get over a 100 vac from mine like that depending on engine speed. It
>isn't going to charge at all unless you have something like almost 20vac
>going into the regulator rectifier. Are you sure you aren't measuring
>with a DC meter?
>
>Yes some of those units will operate with just a large capacitor and no
>battery but I would hesitate to try that without a load connected unless
>you know your combination of parts will do that.
>
>Ken
>Peter H wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>Hi,,
>>I have only 0.2V AC output from the stator of my single phase PM alternator
>>
>>
>when the battery is disconnected. Is this correct?
>
>
>>Is there any way to get full regulated DC output from a PM alternator if
>>
>>
>the battery is isolated from it?
>
>
>>Thanks,
>>Peter H
>>
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | PM ALTERNATOR AC OUTPUT |
Thanks Gilles and Ken.
I am still a bit puzzled that I saw 16V before the alternator went off line,
the CB did not pop and all I have done is recheck the CB connections and the
master switch all of which seemed OK, but now B+ to the alternator is OK and
it is working again.
I understand your comment about the CB Gilles but have no explanation why
the alternator went off line.
The 16V must suggest a regulator fault which has now disappeared. ! I can
only try another flight.
Thanks for the insight.
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Sunday, 22 April 2007 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: PM ALTERNATOR AC OUTPUT
Peter
If your meter has shorted diodes or is not switched to AC you can get
very inconsistant readings much like you saw although it sounds like
your problemt was just a loose connection.
Yes Gilles pointed you in the right direction for the capacitor. I think
Bob recommends at least 1,000 mfd per amp of alternator capacity so
typically 20,000 mfd. That seems to work fine with the B&C and the rotax
regulators I think but I don't know about others. I immediately
destroyed a John Deere regulator which was connected to a completely
dead battery (my mistake) but no capacitor. I only had about an amp of
other loads connected at startup as the battery was not taking any
current (which happens for awhile with a completly dead AGM battery). So
I conclude that with my particular setup, I'd want a capacitor and also
some way of keeping a reasonable load connected at all times to help
keep the voltage reasonable. It seems that my regulator can not handle
starting up with no load connected which might be the case if you were
expecting the alternator to close a battery contactor to connect it to
the load. Or maybe I would have been fine with a capacitor. In most
cases I do think these units would continue to run just fine if the
battery disconnected in flight.
Ken
Peter Harris wrote:
>
>Hi Ken,
>Thanks for that. Today I checked it again and got a reading of 46VAC at
idle
>, then zero, then 0.2VAC and I think my multimeter is faulty. Then I found
a
>loose connection B+ to the regulator, fixed and it all works fine. I am
>still puzzled because I saw 16V charge just before the system stopped in
>flight and the alternator CB did not open. Ken I am interested in your
>comment about the use of a capacitor. Is it connected across the two AC
>leads? And what value? Have you got a reference I could follow up ?
>Thanks,
>Peter
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
>Sent: Saturday, 21 April 2007 10:17 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: PM ALTERNATOR AC OUTPUT
>
>
>Hi Peter
>
>I get over a 100 vac from mine like that depending on engine speed. It
>isn't going to charge at all unless you have something like almost 20vac
>going into the regulator rectifier. Are you sure you aren't measuring
>with a DC meter?
>
>Yes some of those units will operate with just a large capacitor and no
>battery but I would hesitate to try that without a load connected unless
>you know your combination of parts will do that.
>
>Ken
>Peter H wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>Hi,,
>>I have only 0.2V AC output from the stator of my single phase PM
alternator
>>
>>
>when the battery is disconnected. Is this correct?
>
>
>>Is there any way to get full regulated DC output from a PM alternator if
>>
>>
>the battery is isolated from it?
>
>
>>Thanks,
>>Peter H
>>
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gerald Jantzi <gvjantzi(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | voltage regulator |
I have noted this question has been asked before but here we go again. I am looking
for A voltage regulator for 912ul . it should be a series regulator. can
someone give me info on make and where I can get one? thanks Gerry
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | PM ALTERNATOR SPIKE PROTECTION |
Ken thanks for the lead to Bob's advice on spike protection. Re your
comments about the use of a capacitor is this connected across the two AC
output leads from the stator?
I have been told to just fit a diode from the regulator output to B+ for
spike protection but this would not enable isolation of battery from
regulator?
Thanks
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Sunday, 22 April 2007 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: PM ALTERNATOR AC OUTPUT
Peter
If your meter has shorted diodes or is not switched to AC you can get
very inconsistant readings much like you saw although it sounds like
your problemt was just a loose connection.
Yes Gilles pointed you in the right direction for the capacitor. I think
Bob recommends at least 1,000 mfd per amp of alternator capacity so
typically 20,000 mfd. That seems to work fine with the B&C and the rotax
regulators I think but I don't know about others. I immediately
destroyed a John Deere regulator which was connected to a completely
dead battery (my mistake) but no capacitor. I only had about an amp of
other loads connected at startup as the battery was not taking any
current (which happens for awhile with a completly dead AGM battery). So
I conclude that with my particular setup, I'd want a capacitor and also
some way of keeping a reasonable load connected at all times to help
keep the voltage reasonable. It seems that my regulator can not handle
starting up with no load connected which might be the case if you were
expecting the alternator to close a battery contactor to connect it to
the load. Or maybe I would have been fine with a capacitor. In most
cases I do think these units would continue to run just fine if the
battery disconnected in flight.
Ken
Peter Harris wrote:
>
>Hi Ken,
>Thanks for that. Today I checked it again and got a reading of 46VAC at
idle
>, then zero, then 0.2VAC and I think my multimeter is faulty. Then I found
a
>loose connection B+ to the regulator, fixed and it all works fine. I am
>still puzzled because I saw 16V charge just before the system stopped in
>flight and the alternator CB did not open. Ken I am interested in your
>comment about the use of a capacitor. Is it connected across the two AC
>leads? And what value? Have you got a reference I could follow up ?
>Thanks,
>Peter
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
>Sent: Saturday, 21 April 2007 10:17 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: PM ALTERNATOR AC OUTPUT
>
>
>Hi Peter
>
>I get over a 100 vac from mine like that depending on engine speed. It
>isn't going to charge at all unless you have something like almost 20vac
>going into the regulator rectifier. Are you sure you aren't measuring
>with a DC meter?
>
>Yes some of those units will operate with just a large capacitor and no
>battery but I would hesitate to try that without a load connected unless
>you know your combination of parts will do that.
>
>Ken
>Peter H wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>Hi,,
>>I have only 0.2V AC output from the stator of my single phase PM
alternator
>>
>>
>when the battery is disconnected. Is this correct?
>
>
>>Is there any way to get full regulated DC output from a PM alternator if
>>
>>
>the battery is isolated from it?
>
>
>>Thanks,
>>Peter H
>>
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | PM ALTERNATOR AC OUTPUT |
Gilles,
Is the OVM crowbar sold ready made or in a DIY kit?
Thanks
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles
Thesee
Sent: Sunday, 22 April 2007 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: PM ALTERNATOR AC OUTPUT
<Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Peter Harris a crit :
>
> Hi Ken,
> Thanks for that. Today I checked it again and got a reading of 46VAC at
idle
> , then zero, then 0.2VAC and I think my multimeter is faulty. Then I found
a
> loose connection B+ to the regulator, fixed and it all works fine. I am
> still puzzled because I saw 16V charge just before the system stopped in
> flight and the alternator CB did not open. Ken I am interested in your
> comment about the use of a capacitor. Is it connected across the two AC
> leads? And what value? Have you got a reference I could follow up ?
>
Peter,
You'll find the Z16 figure in Bob's Appendix Z most useful for your
application.
It applies to PM alternator engines such as the Rotax 91X but should
work just fine with a Jabiru.
Re the alternator CB you are referring to, this is a CURRENT related
device, and it won't react to an over VOLTAGE event. A CB or fuse is
intended to protect the wires from overheating.
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | PM ALTERNATOR AC OUTPUT |
Gilles
Apologies I have found B and C and ordered the OVM. How essential do you
consider the alternator relay? And where to buy as I did not see at B&C ?
Thanks for your trouble,
Peter H
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles
Thesee
Sent: Sunday, 22 April 2007 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: PM ALTERNATOR AC OUTPUT
<Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Peter Harris a crit :
>
> Hi Ken,
> Thanks for that. Today I checked it again and got a reading of 46VAC at
idle
> , then zero, then 0.2VAC and I think my multimeter is faulty. Then I found
a
> loose connection B+ to the regulator, fixed and it all works fine. I am
> still puzzled because I saw 16V charge just before the system stopped in
> flight and the alternator CB did not open. Ken I am interested in your
> comment about the use of a capacitor. Is it connected across the two AC
> leads? And what value? Have you got a reference I could follow up ?
>
Peter,
You'll find the Z16 figure in Bob's Appendix Z most useful for your
application.
It applies to PM alternator engines such as the Rotax 91X but should
work just fine with a Jabiru.
Re the alternator CB you are referring to, this is a CURRENT related
device, and it won't react to an over VOLTAGE event. A CB or fuse is
intended to protect the wires from overheating.
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | PM ALTERNATOR- REGULATOR CHOICE |
Ken apologies I should have read the Z files first. I have a condenser
connected that way as in Z16. I think I need a different regulator that does
not need excitation from the battery. Bob Nucholls refers to the generic
Ford type regulator, do you know if this is OK for the PM alternator
application?
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Harris
Sent: Monday, 23 April 2007 10:50 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: PM ALTERNATOR SPIKE PROTECTION
Ken thanks for the lead to Bob's advice on spike protection. Re your
comments about the use of a capacitor is this connected across the two AC
output leads from the stator?
I have been told to just fit a diode from the regulator output to B+ for
spike protection but this would not enable isolation of battery from
regulator?
Thanks
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Sunday, 22 April 2007 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: PM ALTERNATOR AC OUTPUT
Peter
If your meter has shorted diodes or is not switched to AC you can get
very inconsistant readings much like you saw although it sounds like
your problemt was just a loose connection.
Yes Gilles pointed you in the right direction for the capacitor. I think
Bob recommends at least 1,000 mfd per amp of alternator capacity so
typically 20,000 mfd. That seems to work fine with the B&C and the rotax
regulators I think but I don't know about others. I immediately
destroyed a John Deere regulator which was connected to a completely
dead battery (my mistake) but no capacitor. I only had about an amp of
other loads connected at startup as the battery was not taking any
current (which happens for awhile with a completly dead AGM battery). So
I conclude that with my particular setup, I'd want a capacitor and also
some way of keeping a reasonable load connected at all times to help
keep the voltage reasonable. It seems that my regulator can not handle
starting up with no load connected which might be the case if you were
expecting the alternator to close a battery contactor to connect it to
the load. Or maybe I would have been fine with a capacitor. In most
cases I do think these units would continue to run just fine if the
battery disconnected in flight.
Ken
Peter Harris wrote:
>
>Hi Ken,
>Thanks for that. Today I checked it again and got a reading of 46VAC at
idle
>, then zero, then 0.2VAC and I think my multimeter is faulty. Then I found
a
>loose connection B+ to the regulator, fixed and it all works fine. I am
>still puzzled because I saw 16V charge just before the system stopped in
>flight and the alternator CB did not open. Ken I am interested in your
>comment about the use of a capacitor. Is it connected across the two AC
>leads? And what value? Have you got a reference I could follow up ?
>Thanks,
>Peter
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
>Sent: Saturday, 21 April 2007 10:17 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: PM ALTERNATOR AC OUTPUT
>
>
>Hi Peter
>
>I get over a 100 vac from mine like that depending on engine speed. It
>isn't going to charge at all unless you have something like almost 20vac
>going into the regulator rectifier. Are you sure you aren't measuring
>with a DC meter?
>
>Yes some of those units will operate with just a large capacitor and no
>battery but I would hesitate to try that without a load connected unless
>you know your combination of parts will do that.
>
>Ken
>Peter H wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>Hi,,
>>I have only 0.2V AC output from the stator of my single phase PM
alternator
>>
>>
>when the battery is disconnected. Is this correct?
>
>
>>Is there any way to get full regulated DC output from a PM alternator if
>>
>>
>the battery is isolated from it?
>
>
>>Thanks,
>>Peter H
>>
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: voltage regulator |
Gerald Jantzi a crit :
> I am looking for A voltage regulator for 912ul . it should be a series
> regulator. can someone give me info on make and where I can get one?
Gerry,
I'm using a Schicke GR4 regulator on a Rotax 914 installation.
Nevertheless, it is not a series regulator. The Rotax/Ducati original
regulator is not either.
Some info at http://contrails.free.fr/elec_ducati_en.php.
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: PM ALTERNATOR- REGULATOR CHOICE |
Peter
I'm not sure why you want a regulator that will start up without a
battery? It sounds like you do have a battery present. Do you know for
sure that your regulator will not start without a battery present?
No the Ford regulators will not work with a PM alternator. THey are for
wound field alternators. Wound field alternators have a field connection
and circuit breaker that supples current to the field winding. No such
thing with a PM alternator as the field magnetism is provided by
Permanent Magnets.
If you intend to use the B&C over voltage module with a PM alternator
you do need a disconnect relay for the module so the module can
disconnect the alternator. I use a $3. automotive relay to break an AC
line from the alternator to the regulator/rectifier. A diode or
transorb is incapable of protecting your system from a runaway regulator
so you need the relay if that is a concern. Arguably a transorb might
provide some protection from a momentary spike but we have no real
evidence to support the existance of such momentary spikes.
Don't get overly concerned about your momentary16 DC volt measurement.
Your bad connection could explain everything. I am pretty confident
that it was not caused by a misbehaving regulator. I use over voltage
protection because I run electronic fuel injection and ignition and it
is not difficult or expensive to add. Some guys use it because they have
expensive avionics or just because they want to. Some guys don't feel
the need for it. The AC volatage will normally be well above 14 volts
at all times so that is normal.
Ken
Peter Harris wrote:
>
>Ken apologies I should have read the Z files first. I have a condenser
>connected that way as in Z16. I think I need a different regulator that does
>not need excitation from the battery. Bob Nucholls refers to the generic
>Ford type regulator, do you know if this is OK for the PM alternator
>application?
>Peter
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | PM ALTERNATOR AC OUTPUT |
>
>
>Gilles
>Apologies I have found B and C and ordered the OVM. How essential do you
>consider the alternator relay? And where to buy as I did not see at B&C ?
>Thanks for your trouble,
The S704-1 IS a B&C part number. They offer the ov crowbar
ov module, capacitor, relay and installation hardware at:
http://www.bandc.biz/PmOVdesc.html
Bob. . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: PM ALTERNATOR- REGULATOR CHOICE |
>
>Peter
>
>I'm not sure why you want a regulator that will start up without a
>battery? It sounds like you do have a battery present. Do you know for
>sure that your regulator will not start without a battery present?
Why would one NOT want an alternator that will run
without a battery. Generators did this from day-one
and we had to give that feature up when generators got
replaced by alternators in the 60's.
Alternators on the Bonanza and Barons have self excited
for decades and the company touts this as a desirable
feature. A few months ago we did an exercise to figure
out how to make an SD-8 come up without assistance from
a battery.
This is generally considered a good thing to do and it
can be done.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | PM ALTERNATOR- REGULATOR CHOICE |
>
>
>Ken apologies I should have read the Z files first. I have a condenser
>connected that way as in Z16. I think I need a different regulator that does
>not need excitation from the battery. Bob Nucholls refers to the generic
>Ford type regulator, do you know if this is OK for the PM alternator
>application?
Read the archives and check out Z-25. This pot was stirred
several months ago.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | PM ALTERNATOR SPIKE PROTECTION (NOT) |
>
>
>Ken thanks for the lead to Bob's advice on spike protection. Re your
>comments about the use of a capacitor is this connected across the two AC
>output leads from the stator?
>I have been told to just fit a diode from the regulator output to B+ for
>spike protection but this would not enable isolation of battery from
>regulator?
>Thanks
>Peter
The capacitor is not for "spike protection". The single phase
PM alternators are exceedingly noisy without at least a battery
on line and the noise can be further reduced by addition of
a capacitor. Further, if you'd like for your SD-8 or similar
alternator to come up self-excited and run well without a battery,
you'd be well advised to install at least the 22,000 uF capacitor
and the resistors described in Figure Z-25 Revision L on page
27 of . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf
It would be pretty cool if we could eliminate the word
"spike" from the vernacular of speaking of airplane
electrical systems. The word has morphed into a dozen
different meanings on the part of some speakers . . .
and most are regarded as evil. The word is then picked
up by the neophyte student of electrical systems and
whacked about like a shuttlecock in a badminton game
with each speaker believing that he's speaking with some
level of understanding and each speaker having a different
vision of what's being discussed. Sounds like Congress!
The ONLY instance where our electrical systems are
likely to experience a true "spike" (see definition
in chapter on over voltage) is during the opening
of coil on a relay or contactor. The spike CAN be
exceedingly spectacular. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Cole-Hersee_without_Diode.gif
but (1) even if ignored, the ONLY potential victim
of such spikes is the SWITCH THAT CONTROLS the relay
or contactor. The spike DOES NOT propagate out onto
the system. Even if it did, it's of such low energy
content that a .10 uF capacitor across the bus or the
+14v input to an appliance would wash it completely. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/CH_Bus_Noise_w_0p1_Cap.gif
(2) by adding the diode or other spike suppression
process, we can give the controlling switch some
relief that results in a longer service life for
the switch. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/CH_w_1n5400.gif
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/CH_w_2x18v_Transorbs.gif
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/CH_w_120_Ohm.gif
ALL OTHER FORMS of bus voltage perturbation come
from instabilities of one kind or another in the
alternator system and are not properly called
"spikes." Regulator stability problems manifest
themselves as small "surges" or "dynamic instabilities
excited by transient loads". These are low energy,
non threatening things as well. The guy we need to
take note of is the "over-voltage" condition promulgated
by the uncontrolled, full-bore output of the engine
driven power source that pushes bus voltage toward
the moon until it's brought under control by some
means crafted for that purpose.
Know that the capacitor in a PM alternator system
is just there for smoothing the considerable ripple
voltage that exists on a full wave, single phase rectified
power output typical of the SD-8. I did some comparative
noise studies on an SD-8 some years ago and compiled this data:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/SD-8_Noise_Data.pdf
Note that with a 10KuF cap (of unknown quality)
the noise under most conditions was under 700 mv pk-pk
except when the battery was disconnected on page
5. Further tests with a brand new 47KuF capacitor
brought the noise levels down nicely even with a
battery off line as shown on page 7.
Yeah, I know those traces look kinda "spikey" but
let's not speak of them in that matter. The voltages
plotted are the normal and expected performance
characteristics of the system under study and none
of the traces should cause an sense of evil or
foreboding that seems to bubble up every time folks
start worrying about "spikes".
A few months ago we studied and solved the problem
of getting the SD-8 to come up self-excited. This
is where the resistors and rectifier were added to
Z-25. At some later time and under a different
discussion topic, we considered moving the control
relay to the AC side of the PM alternator's regulator
as shown on the current revision of Z-16. However,
this is a case of not having your cake and eating
it too. Moving the control relay to the AC side of
the regulator kills our ability to come alive self
excited.
We'll have to throw the pot back on the stove to
see if we can achieve both qualities from a single
architecture.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Relay and capacitor info needed |
| From: | <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US> |
Hello Bob
I think my questions may have gotten lost during your sojourne:
Thx. for the reply. There remains unanswered questions if you don't mind,
I will note below with ****
>>Have a few questions (4) about relays and capacitors to be used on my 914
>>Rotax powered Europa:
>>
>>1) If I use a B+C S704-1 "Sealed" relay for OVP to open and close a yellow
>>output wire of the internal generator (mounted on engine side of
>>firewall), are the chances good it will not blow apart if I choose to wave
>>soar up to 35K with long wings? How about at 18K with intercooled motor
>>running hard and temp of relay gets up to 212F?
>
> Use the relay to do AC switching instead of DC switching . . .
**** The yellow output wire of the Rotax generator is AC. My question has
to do with the internal pressure of the relay blowing apart the sealed
container like a bag of potato chips that will explode at altitude. Do you
think this relay can take the internal pressure of 35K or 18K at 212F
without exploding?
>>2) If I use a Bosh 75 amp "Vented" SPST relay #75251 from
>>www.waytekwire.com on the engine side of the firewall used in parallel
>>with the B+C for OVP to disconnect the 22K uF capacitor from my E-Bus.
>>Should the service life be reasonable on a vented relay on the engine side
>>of the firewall on an airplane stored for the most part in a unheated tin
>>hangar? It has a small slit to allow it to vent. (On my design, if
>>capacitor shorted it would draw down the E-Bus with no way to sever short
>>without 2nd relay. My design addresses failure of battery (opened or dead)
>>when attempting in flight restart after soaring)
>
> Why not wire your PM alternator like Z-16 and leave the capacitor
> across the battery all the time?
**** If running on E-Bus, having a leaking capacitor that can not be
disconnected will defeat much which I desire in my design. I am not using
a Battery contactor, but a Flaming River switch, and turning it off will
not sever the capacitor from the E-Bus. I am willing to accept the extra
complexity to have this extra relay that will disconnect the capacitor
when Rotax generator is turned off either by generator switch or OV. This
is in addition to opening the AC with S704-1 relay. Yes kinda like wearing
suspenders and a belt, but it will accomplish what I desire.
My question is do you think this vented 75 amp relay will provide
reasonable service living on the engine side of the firewall with regard
to condensation causing problems (corrosion/contamination ingress) and or
any other problems that can be associated with a vented relay?
>>3) When turning on and off the internal generator, the 75 amp Bosh relay
>>will be used to charge up the 22K uF capacitor. Can this relay most like
>>give good service charging up the capacitor at least once per flight?
>>Could the B+C S704-1 "Sealed" relay most like take the abuse of charging
>>up the capacitor at least once per flight and be used in place of the Bosh
>>75 amp? (Bosh weighs in at 3.1 oz and has dual contacts)
>
> If you're wired per the latest control philosophies for PM
> alternators, the capacitor charges through the battery contactor
> which won't be particularly stressed by this activity. The
> act of charging the capacitor using the output of the alternator
> is current limited by the alternator's dynamics. No inrush
> concerns here.
**** I am not precise following the latest control philosophies for PM
alternators. I addressed concerns in my design to allow operations from
total loss battery/s for extended soaring, failure of main battery if it
occurred during an inflight restart after soaring, once motor running on a
failed main battery I can get Rotax generator on line to power E-Bus, if
smoke from electric, I can shut down everything and have a fuel pump
running autonomous in seconds.
I want to use either a 75 amp Bosh Relay or a B+C S704-1 to disconnect DC
side from Generator. Do you think the 75 amp relay will hold up charging
the 22K uF capacitor at least once per flight? Do you think a B+C S704-1
relay will hold up charging the 22K uF capacitor at least once per flight?
Again this relay will be the tool used to make a connection and charge the
capacitor.
>>4) I want to use for pitch trim small "Sealed" Osram 12v 5a relays from
>>Digikey pn G6B 2214P US DC12, are the chances good it will not blow apart
>>if I choose to wave soar up to 35K with long wings? Will be mounted in
>>cockpit.
>
> What kind of trim motors? You're probably fine with MAC/RayAllen
> actuators. You could easily go all solid state with these duties
> and eliminate the worries entirely. You're not going to "blow them
> apart" . . . the risk is that at reduced pressures, the arcing
> that inevitably forms between spreading contacts is more severe
> and you get reduced service life. I've not tested open relays at
> these altitudes . . . our mil-spec products are sealed.
**** It is a Ray Allen, I forget the exact model but it is the smallest
one with a indicator. Question is again about blowing them apart because
the internal pressure is higher than the outside pressure at altitude. I
doubt design had in mind aircraft use??? Do you think there is a good
chance that they will not blow apart?
Thx.
Sincerely
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | PM ALTERNATOR- REGULATOR CHOICE |
Thanks Ken.
I am interested in the possibility of using the alternator as a dual source
for power supply as shown in page Z11 (if I read it correctly) . Basically
two diodes back to back , alternator feed one side, battery feed the other
side and dual source power out from the centre tap. I am preparing to
install EFI in a Jabiru J3300. I will need to study how to load the
alternator when the battery is off line. I have ordered the OVM crowbar and
now sourced an alternator relay, but also need to find the right regulator
for the job. The Jab regulator will not work if the battery is disconnected.
The question about running the PM alternator with battery off line is
covered on page Z 10 note 20 which warns that some regulators will not start
without battery connected.
Still learning and thanks for the insight.
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Monday, 23 April 2007 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: PM ALTERNATOR- REGULATOR CHOICE
Peter
I'm not sure why you want a regulator that will start up without a
battery? It sounds like you do have a battery present. Do you know for
sure that your regulator will not start without a battery present?
No the Ford regulators will not work with a PM alternator. THey are for
wound field alternators. Wound field alternators have a field connection
and circuit breaker that supples current to the field winding. No such
thing with a PM alternator as the field magnetism is provided by
Permanent Magnets.
If you intend to use the B&C over voltage module with a PM alternator
you do need a disconnect relay for the module so the module can
disconnect the alternator. I use a $3. automotive relay to break an AC
line from the alternator to the regulator/rectifier. A diode or
transorb is incapable of protecting your system from a runaway regulator
so you need the relay if that is a concern. Arguably a transorb might
provide some protection from a momentary spike but we have no real
evidence to support the existance of such momentary spikes.
Don't get overly concerned about your momentary16 DC volt measurement.
Your bad connection could explain everything. I am pretty confident
that it was not caused by a misbehaving regulator. I use over voltage
protection because I run electronic fuel injection and ignition and it
is not difficult or expensive to add. Some guys use it because they have
expensive avionics or just because they want to. Some guys don't feel
the need for it. The AC volatage will normally be well above 14 volts
at all times so that is normal.
Ken
Peter Harris wrote:
>
>Ken apologies I should have read the Z files first. I have a condenser
>connected that way as in Z16. I think I need a different regulator that
does
>not need excitation from the battery. Bob Nucholls refers to the generic
>Ford type regulator, do you know if this is OK for the PM alternator
>application?
>Peter
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: PM ALTERNATOR- REGULATOR CHOICE |
Peter Harris a crit :
> but also need to find the right regulator
> for the job. The Jab regulator will not work if the battery is disconnected.
> The question about running the PM alternator with battery off line is
> covered on page Z 10 note 20 which warns that some regulators will not start
> without battery connected.
Peter,
Have you considered the Schicke GR6 ?
http://www.schicke-electronic.de/dgr3tech.htm
Same as the GR4 I installed some years ago, but with better heat
rejection capability.
We bench tested it, and it starts to life even with no voltage applied
to the sense wire. I did not test it with no load at all. There was
always a battery or capacitor to load it.
Regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: PM ALTERNATOR- REGULATOR CHOICE |
| From: | "Peter H" <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com> |
Thanks Bob I have now a better understanding of Z25, and Gilles. I am a bit handicapped
for the Schicke as I am based here in Queensland OZ and do not speak
German but I will keep it in mind and it is good to get a first hand recommendation.
I will be pleased to find another alternative recommendation.
Thanks I appreciate the good advice on this list
Peter
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108735#108735
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | PM ALTERNATOR SPIKE PROTECTION (NOT) |
Bob I got a spike which destroyed my electronic ignition module when my
alternator CB popped. I was running a half baked circuit with no proper
protection, hence my journey into your excellent and informative Appendix Z.
I have ordered the OVM and now digging deeper.
Can you recommend a regulator rectifier for the Jabiru, one that can be
started like Z25 without a battery?
Thanks
Peter H
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, 24 April 2007 1:34 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: PM ALTERNATOR SPIKE PROTECTION (NOT)
>
>
>Ken thanks for the lead to Bob's advice on spike protection. Re your
>comments about the use of a capacitor is this connected across the two AC
>output leads from the stator?
>I have been told to just fit a diode from the regulator output to B+ for
>spike protection but this would not enable isolation of battery from
>regulator?
>Thanks
>Peter
The capacitor is not for "spike protection". The single phase
PM alternators are exceedingly noisy without at least a battery
on line and the noise can be further reduced by addition of
a capacitor. Further, if you'd like for your SD-8 or similar
alternator to come up self-excited and run well without a battery,
you'd be well advised to install at least the 22,000 uF capacitor
and the resistors described in Figure Z-25 Revision L on page
27 of . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf
It would be pretty cool if we could eliminate the word
"spike" from the vernacular of speaking of airplane
electrical systems. The word has morphed into a dozen
different meanings on the part of some speakers . . .
and most are regarded as evil. The word is then picked
up by the neophyte student of electrical systems and
whacked about like a shuttlecock in a badminton game
with each speaker believing that he's speaking with some
level of understanding and each speaker having a different
vision of what's being discussed. Sounds like Congress!
The ONLY instance where our electrical systems are
likely to experience a true "spike" (see definition
in chapter on over voltage) is during the opening
of coil on a relay or contactor. The spike CAN be
exceedingly spectacular. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Cole-Hersee_without_Diode.gif
but (1) even if ignored, the ONLY potential victim
of such spikes is the SWITCH THAT CONTROLS the relay
or contactor. The spike DOES NOT propagate out onto
the system. Even if it did, it's of such low energy
content that a .10 uF capacitor across the bus or the
+14v input to an appliance would wash it completely. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/CH_Bus_Noise_w_0p1_Cap.gif
(2) by adding the diode or other spike suppression
process, we can give the controlling switch some
relief that results in a longer service life for
the switch. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/CH_w_1n5400.gif
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/CH_w_2x18v_Transorbs.gif
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/CH_w_120_Ohm.gif
ALL OTHER FORMS of bus voltage perturbation come
from instabilities of one kind or another in the
alternator system and are not properly called
"spikes." Regulator stability problems manifest
themselves as small "surges" or "dynamic instabilities
excited by transient loads". These are low energy,
non threatening things as well. The guy we need to
take note of is the "over-voltage" condition promulgated
by the uncontrolled, full-bore output of the engine
driven power source that pushes bus voltage toward
the moon until it's brought under control by some
means crafted for that purpose.
Know that the capacitor in a PM alternator system
is just there for smoothing the considerable ripple
voltage that exists on a full wave, single phase rectified
power output typical of the SD-8. I did some comparative
noise studies on an SD-8 some years ago and compiled this data:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/SD-8_Noise_Data.pdf
Note that with a 10KuF cap (of unknown quality)
the noise under most conditions was under 700 mv pk-pk
except when the battery was disconnected on page
5. Further tests with a brand new 47KuF capacitor
brought the noise levels down nicely even with a
battery off line as shown on page 7.
Yeah, I know those traces look kinda "spikey" but
let's not speak of them in that matter. The voltages
plotted are the normal and expected performance
characteristics of the system under study and none
of the traces should cause an sense of evil or
foreboding that seems to bubble up every time folks
start worrying about "spikes".
A few months ago we studied and solved the problem
of getting the SD-8 to come up self-excited. This
is where the resistors and rectifier were added to
Z-25. At some later time and under a different
discussion topic, we considered moving the control
relay to the AC side of the PM alternator's regulator
as shown on the current revision of Z-16. However,
this is a case of not having your cake and eating
it too. Moving the control relay to the AC side of
the regulator kills our ability to come alive self
excited.
We'll have to throw the pot back on the stove to
see if we can achieve both qualities from a single
architecture.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | PM ALTERNATOR CHOICE OF REGULATOR |
Bob your page Z10 note 20 warns that some regulators must have B+ connected
to operate and my Jabiru regulator seems to be that way. Would it be
reasonable to expect the Z25 circuit to enable the Jabiru regulator to run
without a battery? (It is a solid state shunt type and looks like the
PMR1-14 but has two leads out for B+)I read also that the PMR1-14 also
requires battery connection but does Z25 overcome the problem for that unit?
Thanks
Peter H
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Harris
Sent: Tuesday, 24 April 2007 9:11 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: PM ALTERNATOR SPIKE PROTECTION (NOT)
Bob I got a spike which destroyed my electronic ignition module when my
alternator CB popped. I was running a half baked circuit with no proper
protection, hence my journey into your excellent and informative Appendix Z.
I have ordered the OVM and now digging deeper.
Can you recommend a regulator rectifier for the Jabiru, one that can be
started like Z25 without a battery?
Thanks
Peter H
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, 24 April 2007 1:34 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: PM ALTERNATOR SPIKE PROTECTION (NOT)
>
>
>Ken thanks for the lead to Bob's advice on spike protection. Re your
>comments about the use of a capacitor is this connected across the two AC
>output leads from the stator?
>I have been told to just fit a diode from the regulator output to B+ for
>spike protection but this would not enable isolation of battery from
>regulator?
>Thanks
>Peter
The capacitor is not for "spike protection". The single phase
PM alternators are exceedingly noisy without at least a battery
on line and the noise can be further reduced by addition of
a capacitor. Further, if you'd like for your SD-8 or similar
alternator to come up self-excited and run well without a battery,
you'd be well advised to install at least the 22,000 uF capacitor
and the resistors described in Figure Z-25 Revision L on page
27 of . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf
It would be pretty cool if we could eliminate the word
"spike" from the vernacular of speaking of airplane
electrical systems. The word has morphed into a dozen
different meanings on the part of some speakers . . .
and most are regarded as evil. The word is then picked
up by the neophyte student of electrical systems and
whacked about like a shuttlecock in a badminton game
with each speaker believing that he's speaking with some
level of understanding and each speaker having a different
vision of what's being discussed. Sounds like Congress!
The ONLY instance where our electrical systems are
likely to experience a true "spike" (see definition
in chapter on over voltage) is during the opening
of coil on a relay or contactor. The spike CAN be
exceedingly spectacular. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Cole-Hersee_without_Diode.gif
but (1) even if ignored, the ONLY potential victim
of such spikes is the SWITCH THAT CONTROLS the relay
or contactor. The spike DOES NOT propagate out onto
the system. Even if it did, it's of such low energy
content that a .10 uF capacitor across the bus or the
+14v input to an appliance would wash it completely. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/CH_Bus_Noise_w_0p1_Cap.gif
(2) by adding the diode or other spike suppression
process, we can give the controlling switch some
relief that results in a longer service life for
the switch. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/CH_w_1n5400.gif
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/CH_w_2x18v_Transorbs.gif
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/CH_w_120_Ohm.gif
ALL OTHER FORMS of bus voltage perturbation come
from instabilities of one kind or another in the
alternator system and are not properly called
"spikes." Regulator stability problems manifest
themselves as small "surges" or "dynamic instabilities
excited by transient loads". These are low energy,
non threatening things as well. The guy we need to
take note of is the "over-voltage" condition promulgated
by the uncontrolled, full-bore output of the engine
driven power source that pushes bus voltage toward
the moon until it's brought under control by some
means crafted for that purpose.
Know that the capacitor in a PM alternator system
is just there for smoothing the considerable ripple
voltage that exists on a full wave, single phase rectified
power output typical of the SD-8. I did some comparative
noise studies on an SD-8 some years ago and compiled this data:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/SD-8_Noise_Data.pdf
Note that with a 10KuF cap (of unknown quality)
the noise under most conditions was under 700 mv pk-pk
except when the battery was disconnected on page
5. Further tests with a brand new 47KuF capacitor
brought the noise levels down nicely even with a
battery off line as shown on page 7.
Yeah, I know those traces look kinda "spikey" but
let's not speak of them in that matter. The voltages
plotted are the normal and expected performance
characteristics of the system under study and none
of the traces should cause an sense of evil or
foreboding that seems to bubble up every time folks
start worrying about "spikes".
A few months ago we studied and solved the problem
of getting the SD-8 to come up self-excited. This
is where the resistors and rectifier were added to
Z-25. At some later time and under a different
discussion topic, we considered moving the control
relay to the AC side of the PM alternator's regulator
as shown on the current revision of Z-16. However,
this is a case of not having your cake and eating
it too. Moving the control relay to the AC side of
the regulator kills our ability to come alive self
excited.
We'll have to throw the pot back on the stove to
see if we can achieve both qualities from a single
architecture.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | GNS 430W Antenna Requirements |
4/24/2007
Hello Wayne, Thanks for your input. One more question if I may.
I have read that the connector on the end of the coax cable that connects to
the antenna must be a male TNC connector. Can you please confirm that?
Also I'd appreciate it if you can shed any light on what additional
equipment, antenna, black box, or...........? would be needed if one wanted
to have XM weather appear on their GNS 430W.
Thanks.
OC -- The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand
knowledge.
From: "Wayne Sweet" <w_sweet(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Avionics-List: GNS 430W Antenna Requirements
I have my GNS430W installed with the antenna mounted on the aft of the
canopy (BUSHBY MustangII); the RG400 coax is about 8 feet in length. No
noticeable difference from the same location prior to the WAAS update.
BTW, I'm having a ball flying GPS approached with ILS like display. In fact
the needles are much calmer than on a ILS approach, and no worry about false
lobes. :-))) Only problem (small), from the approach plate can't tell if
there will be an active GS till I get on the approach and get the LNAV+V
indication. The GS comes active on the waypoint just outside the FAF.
Wayne
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: PM ALTERNATOR- REGULATOR CHOICE |
To his credit, Peter has been asking lots of questions and I was trying
to understand whether it was worth his effort to change parts and insure
self excitation. For my Z-14 system, it doesn't matter to me whether
either alternator will self excite. If I don't like how the engine is
running, my procedure is to just switch to the second EFI system, which
runs on the other battery and alternator.
Self excitation is fine but I would encourage a bit of testing before
counting on continued operation without a battery. Especially with a
regulator that was not designed to perform without a battery. Now that
Peter's has described what he is trying to do, I agree that self
excitation or a second battery is essential for him. However self
excitation might not help much if someone inadvertantly stalled the
alternator and had a geared prop that promptly stopped turning. Self
excitation might not be as comforting if Peter's EFI Jabiru doesn't
windmill fast enough to restart his engine. For example he might want
to insure that with his system it is not possible to inadvertantly (out
of habit) turn on something like a landing light and stall the
alternator... His "dual" power source should probably be strictly for
feeding the engine. My PM alternator doesn't put out much current at
idle rpm.
Ken
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> I'm not sure why you want a regulator that will start up without a
>> battery? It sounds like you do have a battery present. Do you know
>> for sure that your regulator will not start without a battery present?
>
>
> Why would one NOT want an alternator that will run
> without a battery. Generators did this from day-one
> and we had to give that feature up when generators got
> replaced by alternators in the 60's.
>
> Alternators on the Bonanza and Barons have self excited
> for decades and the company touts this as a desirable
> feature. A few months ago we did an exercise to figure
> out how to make an SD-8 come up without assistance from
> a battery.
>
> This is generally considered a good thing to do and it
> can be done.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Wayne Sweet" <w_sweet(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GNS 430W Antenna Requirements |
Yes, it does need a TNC connector at the antenna; the dealer that sent mine
in to Garmin for the WAAS upgrade made a pigtail TNC to BNC for me ( $10.00
:-))) ) . Don't know about what additional boxes needed for XM.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
Cc:
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 3:19 AM
Subject: GNS 430W Antenna Requirements
> 4/24/2007
>
> Hello Wayne, Thanks for your input. One more question if I may.
>
> I have read that the connector on the end of the coax cable that connects
> to the antenna must be a male TNC connector. Can you please confirm that?
>
> Also I'd appreciate it if you can shed any light on what additional
> equipment, antenna, black box, or...........? would be needed if one
> wanted to have XM weather appear on their GNS 430W.
>
> Thanks.
>
> OC -- The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
> understand knowledge.
>
> From: "Wayne Sweet" <w_sweet(at)comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: Avionics-List: GNS 430W Antenna Requirements
>
>
> I have my GNS430W installed with the antenna mounted on the aft of the
> canopy (BUSHBY MustangII); the RG400 coax is about 8 feet in length. No
> noticeable difference from the same location prior to the WAAS update.
> BTW, I'm having a ball flying GPS approached with ILS like display. In
> fact
> the needles are much calmer than on a ILS approach, and no worry about
> false
> lobes. :-))) Only problem (small), from the approach plate can't tell
> if
> there will be an active GS till I get on the approach and get the LNAV+V
> indication. The GS comes active on the waypoint just outside the FAF.
> Wayne
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Relay and capacitor info needed |
>
>Hello Bob
>
>I think my questions may have gotten lost during your sojourne:
>**** The yellow output wire of the Rotax generator is AC. My question has
>to do with the internal pressure of the relay blowing apart the sealed
>container like a bag of potato chips that will explode at altitude. Do you
>think this relay can take the internal pressure of 35K or 18K at 212F
>without exploding?
There are two major issues with environmental pressure
reduction. Cooling for devices that depend on moving air
to shed heat. It's amazing how hot things can get with
-50C air blowing over it a 200Kts IAS when that air is
ambient at 41K feet!
The other is increasing difficulty for preventing arcing.
This can be a concern for ordinary spacing issues with
non-moving parts carrying high voltage. It's a special
concern with breaking a circuit with a switch or relay
that carries a DC inductive load. This is why magnetos
get pressurized on some airplanes.
There are NO concerns for mechanical failure (blowing
apart) due to increasing altitude.
> >
> > Why not wire your PM alternator like Z-16 and leave the capacitor
> > across the battery all the time?
>
>**** If running on E-Bus, having a leaking capacitor that can not be
>disconnected will defeat much which I desire in my design. I am not using
>a Battery contactor, but a Flaming River switch, and turning it off will
>not sever the capacitor from the E-Bus. I am willing to accept the extra
>complexity to have this extra relay that will disconnect the capacitor
>when Rotax generator is turned off either by generator switch or OV. This
>is in addition to opening the AC with S704-1 relay. Yes kinda like wearing
>suspenders and a belt, but it will accomplish what I desire.
You're worrying too much. The capacitor is not a big
hazard item. It's going to go open (capacity reduces) as
it ages. Put a new one in every so often if you're worried
about it but adding a special disconnect capability has
no return on the expenditure . . . i.e. poor investment.
>My question is do you think this vented 75 amp relay will provide
>reasonable service living on the engine side of the firewall with regard
>to condensation causing problems (corrosion/contamination ingress) and or
>any other problems that can be associated with a vented relay?
Define "reasonable". We have no mechanism by which MTBF
can be accurately calculated and compared with your sense of
"reasonable" . . . this is why I preach the doctrine of failure
tolerant design. Best way to have a part become a maintenance
issue is not to leave it off. You don't need to have panel
control over whether or not the capacitor is connected.
> >
> > If you're wired per the latest control philosophies for PM
> > alternators, the capacitor charges through the battery contactor
> > which won't be particularly stressed by this activity. The
> > act of charging the capacitor using the output of the alternator
> > is current limited by the alternator's dynamics. No inrush
> > concerns here.
>
>**** I am not precise following the latest control philosophies for PM
>alternators. I addressed concerns in my design to allow operations from
>total loss battery/s for extended soaring, failure of main battery if it
>occurred during an inflight restart after soaring, once motor running on a
>failed main battery I can get Rotax generator on line to power E-Bus, if
>smoke from electric, I can shut down everything and have a fuel pump
>running autonomous in seconds.
>
>I want to use either a 75 amp Bosh Relay or a B+C S704-1 to disconnect DC
>side from Generator. Do you think the 75 amp relay will hold up charging
>the 22K uF capacitor at least once per flight? Do you think a B+C S704-1
>relay will hold up charging the 22K uF capacitor at least once per flight?
>Again this relay will be the tool used to make a connection and charge the
>capacitor.
What you want to do will function. I have no foundation in
physics or experience to put lower limits on service life. I
have no concerns for extraordinary stress that might be expected
to impact the ordinarily good service for these components . . .
but if it were my airplane, I wouldn't even install it.
> >
> > What kind of trim motors? You're probably fine with MAC/RayAllen
> > actuators. You could easily go all solid state with these duties
> > and eliminate the worries entirely. You're not going to "blow them
> > apart" . . . the risk is that at reduced pressures, the arcing
> > that inevitably forms between spreading contacts is more severe
> > and you get reduced service life. I've not tested open relays at
> > these altitudes . . . our mil-spec products are sealed.
>
>**** It is a Ray Allen, I forget the exact model but it is the smallest
>one with a indicator. Question is again about blowing them apart because
>the internal pressure is higher than the outside pressure at altitude. I
>doubt design had in mind aircraft use??? Do you think there is a good
>chance that they will not blow apart?
Please ditch this concern about blowing anything up. Electro-whizzies
for aircraft are not selected for their ability to resist any tendencies
to spontaneously disassemble due to effects of altitude.
Any of the hardware installed to support the R-A actuators
at pedestrian altitudes will be fine in you airplane.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Foerster" <jmfpublic(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | RE: PM ALTERNATOR SPIKE PROTECTION (NOT) |
Bob,
Regarding the PM alternators, you wrote:
A few months ago we studied and solved the problem
of getting the SD-8 to come up self-excited. This
is where the resistors and rectifier were added to
Z-25. At some later time and under a different
discussion topic, we considered moving the control
relay to the AC side of the PM alternator's regulator
as shown on the current revision of Z-16. However,
this is a case of not having your cake and eating
it too. Moving the control relay to the AC side of
the regulator kills our ability to come alive self
excited.
We'll have to throw the pot back on the stove to
see if we can achieve both qualities from a single
architecture.
Here is a possible entry for the pot. Design so that the relay and the
S1 controlling switch get power either from the battery or the same
bridge circuit of Z25. A diode would be placed in series from the main
battery bus to the fuselink, and the output from the diode bridge would
also be fed by a series diode to the upstream (bus) side of the circuit
breaker. Diodes would need to be in the 100 to 200 volts range, but
that is not difficult. If smaller breakers than 5 amps are available
that would be better, too.
A more elegant solution would use a thyristor triggered by a pulse from
the overvoltage module, but I haven't tried to draw that one. This is
looking like a job for a small printed circuit board again.
Jim Foerster, J400 slowly wiring
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY Intercom System |
>
>I'd like to see a easy (cheap) audio mixer for use with a commercial intercom.
>Simple panels probably only have 3 or 4 audio sources (including alerts)
>and a full audio panel is way overkill. Most folks don't even use the
>speaker any more, so phones only are OK.
>
>I was thinking of a simple audio mixer and a Tx1/Tx2 switch.. perhaps from
>a ready made kit... such as this one...
>
>http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/FK652
>
>Would like to hear other suggestions....
See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/DIY/Audio_Isolation_Amplifier.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Easy question? |
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
>
> I have a device that lives quite happily between around 11vdc to around 13.9vdc
and then promptly stops working above that number. Problem is most charging
systems are above 14vdc. It uses milliamps at best so I'm looking for the
easiest way to drop a volt.
>
>
>
A couple of diodes in series will give you between 1 and 1.5 volt drop.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DIY Intercom System |
| From: | "az_gila" <gilalex(at)earthlink.net> |
Bob... if I wanted to switch sources on and off, would a switched short to ground
between the input resistor and capacitor for a single input work?
Such as shorting the junction of R104 and C112 to ground (page 1.8.1 schematic)
gil A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=109110#109110
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "RV_10" <john_rv10(at)yahoo.com> |
Guys,
We are looking at installing a FreeFlight TR 300 Radar Altimeter in our RV
10. Unfortunately the TR 300 needs 27.5 volts, and we are building a 12 volt
ship.
Is there any way to sensibly run this 27.5 volt item on our 12 volt ship?
Thank you,
John Cleary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | PM ALTERNATOR- REGULATOR CHOICE |
Ken,
I will need about 4A to run the EFI. Ignition is dual by one magneto and one
electronic ignition module . It will be OK by me if I can cover the EFI
only. But how much current would stall the alternator and stop the engine?
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Tuesday, 24 April 2007 10:41 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: PM ALTERNATOR- REGULATOR CHOICE
To his credit, Peter has been asking lots of questions and I was trying
to understand whether it was worth his effort to change parts and insure
self excitation. For my Z-14 system, it doesn't matter to me whether
either alternator will self excite. If I don't like how the engine is
running, my procedure is to just switch to the second EFI system, which
runs on the other battery and alternator.
Self excitation is fine but I would encourage a bit of testing before
counting on continued operation without a battery. Especially with a
regulator that was not designed to perform without a battery. Now that
Peter's has described what he is trying to do, I agree that self
excitation or a second battery is essential for him. However self
excitation might not help much if someone inadvertantly stalled the
alternator and had a geared prop that promptly stopped turning. Self
excitation might not be as comforting if Peter's EFI Jabiru doesn't
windmill fast enough to restart his engine. For example he might want
to insure that with his system it is not possible to inadvertantly (out
of habit) turn on something like a landing light and stall the
alternator... His "dual" power source should probably be strictly for
feeding the engine. My PM alternator doesn't put out much current at
idle rpm.
Ken
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> I'm not sure why you want a regulator that will start up without a
>> battery? It sounds like you do have a battery present. Do you know
>> for sure that your regulator will not start without a battery present?
>
>
> Why would one NOT want an alternator that will run
> without a battery. Generators did this from day-one
> and we had to give that feature up when generators got
> replaced by alternators in the 60's.
>
> Alternators on the Bonanza and Barons have self excited
> for decades and the company touts this as a desirable
> feature. A few months ago we did an exercise to figure
> out how to make an SD-8 come up without assistance from
> a battery.
>
> This is generally considered a good thing to do and it
> can be done.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY Intercom System |
>
>Bob... if I wanted to switch sources on and off, would a switched short to
>ground between the input resistor and capacitor for a single input work?
>
>Such as shorting the junction of R104 and C112 to ground (page 1.8.1
>schematic)
>
>gil A
Yes.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Clamp On DC Multimeters... |
>Your first clue is that it is expensive...that tells you its about what
>you should pay.
>
>But answer me this...Why on Earth would you want to spend that kind of
>money?...HArbor freights $2.50 multimeter has a 10A shunt (namely will
>measure up to 10 amps) . This should be adequate for 1/100th of the cost.
>
>Incidently the HF multimeter is very accurate...at least mine is.
>
>Frank
The snap on ammeter permits a quick-n-convenient
look at the current in a wire (or multiples of wires)
without breaking into them.
It's true that the least expensive of multimeters
is more accurate for a small fraction of what
it cost us for the basic multimeter of 40 years
ago. But one can still go more dollars for features
and robustness.
I spent about $60 a few years back to acquire a
multimeter that reads capacitors. I already had
a dozen such instruments in various tool boxes
but I had a task that required the matching of
some capacitors. I needed the feature, bought
the instrument and finished the task. I don't
think I've needed that feature again since but
the critter is there . . . if I need it again.
I found a 400A snap-on Fluke adapter for multimeters
on Ebay a few months ago. Got it for about 2/3 the
cost of new. I've already used it to ease the
$time$ to do several tasks. I've replaced the
banana plugs with a BNC connector on it so that
I can go to my 'scope. I've got a bunch of BNC
to dual banana adapters so I can still stick the
critter onto a multimeter for single value
measurements.
I've got a job coming up at work where I'll use
my 'scope and the DC snap on ammeter to get some
sense of the dynamics in a current path on an
airplane.
The short answer is that one tailors a purchase
to present and future needs. I buy $3 multimeters
at HF by the dozens to give away at my seminars.
"Who in this room does NOT yet own a multimeter?"
Everybody leaves my seminars owning at least one
multimeter. But if the $3 feller lacks a feature
or general robustness/reliability, then one digs
deeper into the pockets. I don't pack a $3 HF meter
to go on a troubleshooting trip. The 20 year-old
Fluke is my travel companion.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DIY Intercom System |
| From: | "az_gila" <gilalex(at)earthlink.net> |
Thanks Bob...
I presume a short (less than 6 inches) twisted pair to a panel switch would do
the job...
gil A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=109167#109167
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Piavis <jpiavis(at)microsoft.com> |
I didn't get any verification on this so I thought I'd throw this out again
...
I'm sure this has been discussed but searching the archives didn't produce
a lot, so I wanted to request a clarification.
I'm wiring up two Slick mags with SPST switches. From the Z-13 diagram here
's how I understand the mag wiring:
1) Use 18AWG shielded wire
2) Connect the mag-side ground pigtail to the ground stud on the mag.
3) For switch side, connect the ground pigtail to the ground side of t
April 02, 2007 - April 25, 2007
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-gv