AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ha
June 21, 2007 - July 13, 2007
>> units.
>
> You use the plural version of shunt. Does the system
> have more than one input for monitoring a current? Or
> is there one input that can be switched to one of mulitple
> shunts?
>
>
>> OK, so I've got the low voltage indicators, and If I go ahead and
>> install the shunts per the Z-14 to supply Alternator loadmeters, I'm
>> not sure I understand how to interpret the information that I receive
>> from the Alternator loadmeters. What would this information be
>> telling me? If I understand it correctly (?) it would display the
>> current that is being output from the Alternator, correct? But if I
>> understand correctly it doesn't tell me that the battery is charging,
>> (Is this what you mean when you say that items 3 and higher have
>> little or no significance in Operations? can you illuminate?
>
> IF the bus is being supported at the design set point (i.e.
> 13.8 to 14.6 volts with 14.2 being nominal) AND assuming
> further that the battery is in good shape and capable of
> accepting a charge, then it IS being charged. There is no
> value in having a minus-zero-plus indicator (battery ammeter)
> to confirm this.
>
> I'm presuming that you intend to MAINTAIN the battery with
> respect to KNOWING that its capacity is sufficient to your
> endurance needs, then knowing that the bus voltage is where
> it should be is sufficient.
>
> Alternator loadmeters are generally set up to display percent
> of full load. See:
>
> https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/9007-120-1_Loadmeter.jpg
>
> The instrument is then paired with shunt(s) that are sized
> for the capability of the device being monitored. E.g. a
> 55A alternator should get a 55A shunt, a 20A alternator is
> fitted with a 20A shunt. This allows one to switch a single
> instrument to as many devices as you wish and know what
> PERCENTAGE of that device's capabilities are in demand
> at any given time.
>
> As to operations . . . if the low volts warning light is
> OUT (and the engine monitor confirms the bus at an acceptable
> voltage) of what value is it as a pilot to know what ANY
> current is? You have designed your system to carry all the
> loads required for operation. Knowing what those loads are
> at any given moment are incidental to piloting the airplane.
>
> If the low voltage warning light is ON, of what value is
> it to know what any current is? You have designed your
> Plan-B operations and KNOW that the battery will support
> Plan-B for x number of hours with loads you've already
> decided to support.
>
> My assertion is that every load situation for both normal
> and alternator-out operations are known in advance and
> knowing a reading only validates your Plan-B design
> . . . it adds no value for comfortable completion of flight.
>
> Once you're on the ground, you're going to find that
> you need a LOT more data to interpret the failure and
> deduce needs for repair. So unless you're going to install
> a LOT of shunts and voltage sample points for the purpose
> of diagnosing the failure from the pilot's seat, the
> classic choices for instrumentation beyond a low-volts
> warning and an e-bus voltmeter are a toss up.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: re: MB antennnas |
>
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>> I don't need the antenna . . . but if you could
>> get me the dimensions I asked about earlier, it
>> would be helpful.
>> Bob . . .
>
>Down 6" from the belly and then 88" long. In addition, there is a copper
>wire coil about 6" long in the middle of the antenna. Hope this helps.
Interesting!!! Let's dissect these figures in the light
of what we know about antenna design and performance.
A full wavelength at 75 Mhz is 300/75 = 4 meters.
A quarter wave antenna would therefore be 1 meter
or 39.36 inches. The sled runner I illustrated at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Antenna/AV-533.jpg
the far end bolts to the airframe and is grounded to the
skin at that point. The antenna is supported off the
skin by some distance set by the design of the bend
at the the "ground" end and duplicated by a non-conducting
support post . The feedline for routing antenna energy
to the receiver is tapped onto the antenna some distance
away from the ground end. In antenna parlance, this is
called a "gamma match". The idea is that we know the
impedance of the system at the ground end of the antenna is
zero ohm. On the free end, it will approach mucho-ohms.
Someplace between mucho and zero, we'll find a point that
is very close to 50 ohms.
Hence, you see the feedline tap fastened to the antenna
rod at some distance nearer the ground end but optimized
during design and testing to maximize the energy
transfer between antenna and feedline.
Now, what about this 88" figure? This is longer than
1/2 wavelength. Further, he does not speak to a feedpoint
attachment.
John, do you know that you have ALL of the antenna as-
removed? Is there any evidence that a feedpoint tap was
ever installed some distance from the forward end of
the antenna? Is the mounting hardware still present
for the forward end? Is it all metal . . . or does the
collection of components offer an insulated penetration
of the belly skin?
Pending John's future findings and based on what we
know so far, it's my best guess that this antenna feeds
from what is usually the "ground end" of the sled-runner
illustrated above. Further, we know that antennas offer
a useable, relatively low impedance feed-point at the ground
end that repeats at odd quarter-wave intervals for overall
length. For example, a ham's 1/4-wave vertical antenna
optimized for operation at 7.3 MHz offers some opportunity
for useful performance on the 21 MHz band where
the antenna is nominally 3x 1/4-wave.
The antenna John is describing to us may well be a
nominally "too long" antenna for 1/4-wave performance
and "too short" for 3/4-wave service. However, by
inserting a small inductance at some point along the
antenna's length, the system can be electrically
"loaded" to appear as if it were really 3/4-wave
in length when in fact it is much shorter.
Amateur radio mobile antennas operate over a range
of 3.0 to 30 MHz which would require physical lengths
of 25 to 2.5 meters for 1/4 wave performance. Typically
these antennas are 3 meters or so in length and fitted
in an adjustable "loading coil" for the purpose of optimizing
the antenna's performance at any frequency of interest.
My guess is that the designer intended this antenna
to appear as if it were a 3/4-wave antenna with what
I would suppose was an intent to improve performance
as a receptor of energy from the ground based marker
transmitter. This is a bit mystifying for modern systems
because the markers used during approach are quite strong
and your distance above them is in hundreds of feet.
Now, it may be that this antenna was designed for
installation on a larger airplane and used for IFR
navigation back in the 30s and 40s when the airways
were electronically marked laterally with low frequency
A-N radio range stations and your location along any given
airway was made known by the occasional electronic
milestone called an airway marker.
I've not found a description of the US versions of
the visual/aural range system that used low frequency
ground stations (150-500 Khz) however, in the 50's
when we were phasing out our LF VAR systems for
VHF VOR systems, the Australians were adapting
VHF Localizer and ILS technologies to their own
version of the 4-course VARS but with the advantage
of being able to fly a needle on the panel instead
of having to listen to the aural signature of the
AN-range station signal through static crashes of
hopefully not to near thunderstorms.
Both the US and AUS 4-course range systems used 75
MHz marker transmitters for locating one's position
along a route. See page 6 of . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/RadioNavigation/VAR_Marker-Beacon_Notes.pdf
I believer the US airways marker used to operated the white
indicator on the suite of marker lamps and the morse
code tone was unique to the marker so you knew which
transmitter was talking to your receiver. This functionality
was replaced by "inner marker" and "fan markers"
on the ILS to some approaches. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marker_beacon
Back then receiver performance limitations could be
enhanced by an extraordinarily large antenna so that
the crew would get reliable indication of having
passed a marker that was thousands of feet below
and perhaps a mile or two off to one side or the
other.
The US 4-course, AN Ranges stations and the Australian
VAR systems were replaced by early cousins to the
VHF Visual Omni Range stations that are still in
use today. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHF_omnidirectional_range
The need for receiving airway markers faded away
with the advent of VOR and DME. We may never know
for sure but it seems likely that John is in
possession of a relic of our radio-navigation yesteryear.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Low Voltage plus Alt Loadmeter |
>
>Thank you, The fog is beginning to lift
>
>Deems
Very good . . . that's the mission here on the List. If you
need more clarification, don't hesitate to ask.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Ingram" <justchili1(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | FUELGARD/fuel flow unit |
I have a Fuelgard fuel flow unit and would like to find out what the pin out
is for this unit. Silver inst, model 201B
Chili Willy
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: FUELGARD/fuel flow unit |
| From: | Ron Quillin <rjquillin(at)gmail.com> |
Is it a flowscan 201B sensor/sending unit?
Red +
Black ground
White signal
At 14:03 6/21/2007, you wrote:
>I have a Fuelgard fuel flow unit and would like to find out what the
>pin out is for this unit. Silver inst, model 201B
>
>Chili Willy
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vernon Smith <planesmith(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Question about Aux battery contactor on Z30 |
Hi,
On drawing Z30 there is a auxiliary battery contactor. If the auxiliary bat
tery is not being used for cracking the engine could this contactor be repl
aced with a diode similar to the endurance buss diode and still allow charg
ing of the aux battery? The reasoning behind this question is it would lowe
r the component count and simplify the isolation of the auxiliary battery.
Thanks,
Vern Smith
_________________________________________________________________
Make every IM count. Download Windows Live Messenger and join the i=92m Ini
tiative now. It=92s free.--
http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGWL_June07
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Question about Aux battery contactor on Z30 |
>Hi,
>
>On drawing Z30 there is a auxiliary battery contactor. If the auxiliary
>battery is not being used for cracking the engine could this contactor be
>replaced with a diode similar to the endurance buss diode and still allow
>charging of the aux battery? The reasoning behind this question is it
>would lower the component count and simplify the isolation of the
>auxiliary battery.
>Thanks,
If the aux battery is never intended to drive the bus and
only support its battery bus, then
(1) a smaller power relay can be used like the S704-1
automotive plastic relay which offers a voltage drop
on hte order of tens of millivolts. See:
http://tinyurl.com/2sno9m
(2) Or you could use a power diode. Silicon junction
devices have about .6 volts of drop in the conducting mode
See http://www.vishay.com/docs/88612/gbpc12.pdf
(3) a schottky device would bring this down to .4 volts.
See http://www.vishay.com/docs/93275/9327520c.pdf
Folks have found all three techniques useful.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Barrow" <bobbarrow10(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Internal reg failed. Everything fried |
The following copy of a post on the Yahoo GRT_EFIS group site is most
interesting. It seems the internal regulator on a Vans supplied alternator
failed on an RV and the resultant overvoltage fried all of the avionics.
FOR THE WHAT ITS WORTH COLUMN. WE HAVE HAD THE GRT EFIS AND EIS
INSTALLED IN AN RV9A AND HAVE NOTHING BUT GOOD THINGS TO SAY ABOUT
THE COMPANY, THE PEOPLE AND THE EQUIPMENT.
WE HAD OVER 300 HRS ON THE GRT EQUIP AND WE WERE FLYING FROM TYLER
TEXAS TO VICKSBURG MISSISSIPPI WHEN OUR ALT (FROM VANS FIREWALL
FORWARD PACKAGE) TOSSED ITS INTERNAL VOLTAGE REGULATOR INTO THE
ARMATURE. THE RESULT WAS THAT EVERTYING FRIED.
AS YOU ALL PROBABLY KNOW , AN OVERVOLTAGE IS NOT PROTECTED BY
BREAKERS. OUR SL30, 327 AUTO PILOTS AND .....EVERYTHING FRIED.
WE SENT OUR COOKED EFIS, AND EIS TO GRT AND TOLD THEM THAT IT WAS
NOT THEIR EQUIPMENT THAT FAILED BUT RATHER THE ABOVE,,,, THEIR
RESPONSE.... THEY SENT US NEW ONES ? IT IS RARE TO FIND A COMPANY
WITH THAT MUCH EXPERTISE AND ... HOW DO YOU DESCRIBE THAT KIND OF
SERVICE? GOOD WILL?
FRED HOLLOWAY
_________________________________________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Question about Aux battery contactor on Z30 |
>Bob,
>
>Thank you for the quick response and the multiply options. In building an
>airplane, so far, the electrical is by far the most intriguing to me.
>Thanks again,
I'm pleased that you find value in the
$time$ you spend here . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Internal reg failed. Everything fried |
. . . any student of the assemblage of simple-ideas that
form a useful invention ultimately comes to understand
that the risk for such events is never zero . . . and the
$time$ to achieve 1x10^-6 reliability is great.
So, the cost effective approach hangs a hat on a parallel
concept . . . failure tolerance.
Assuming we know nothing about the pedigree of the simple-
ideas and cooks that crafted any particular alternator, the
prudent system designer simply assumes that the alternator can
and will fail in ugly ways at some point in time.
The traditional approach to making that failure tolerable
is to (1) fit the system with a means by which the pilot
exercises absolute control, (2) fit the system with active
notification of malfunction and (3) install an automatic,
milliseconds fast responder to the OV event that exercises
feature (1) which causes feature (2) to announce that the
alternator is off line . . . for whatever reason.
In terms of SYSTEM reliability, one can easily deduce that
the likelihood of a failure in the alternator and in either
(1), (2) or (3) happening together on the same tank full of
fuel is exceedingly small. Now if one has a well considered
plan-b for the unexpected alternator shut-down event, then
the builder has crafted great SYSTEM reliability from
a collection of components for which there is little or no
data as to the reliability of any one component.
The anecdote cited has no "hard evidence" by virtue of
an autopsy of the alleged failure but the byproducts of
that failure are inarguable and the source of the energy
that caused the damage is not debatable. This is an expensive
lesson that has taxed the $time$ of someone else . . . who has
seen fit to make us beneficiaries of his/her experience
and observations.
It would be foolish of us not to exploit that information
and apply the best-we-know-how-to-do as a prophylactic against
sharing the writer's experience. This ladies and gentlemen
is not a dark-n-stormy-night story that yields little
data for refining a recipe for success. It's a bright-light-
of-day-illumination of how a particular recipe failed
in expensive ways but fortunately without injury to the
"cooks".
Thank you Mr. Barrow for sharing this with us.
Bob . . .
>
>
>The following copy of a post on the Yahoo GRT_EFIS group site is most
>interesting. It seems the internal regulator on a Vans supplied alternator
>failed on an RV and the resultant overvoltage fried all of the avionics.
>
>FOR THE WHAT ITS WORTH COLUMN. WE HAVE HAD THE GRT EFIS AND EIS
>INSTALLED IN AN RV9A AND HAVE NOTHING BUT GOOD THINGS TO SAY ABOUT
>THE COMPANY, THE PEOPLE AND THE EQUIPMENT.
>
>WE HAD OVER 300 HRS ON THE GRT EQUIP AND WE WERE FLYING FROM TYLER
>TEXAS TO VICKSBURG MISSISSIPPI WHEN OUR ALT (FROM VANS FIREWALL
>FORWARD PACKAGE) TOSSED ITS INTERNAL VOLTAGE REGULATOR INTO THE
>ARMATURE. THE RESULT WAS THAT EVERTYING FRIED.
>
>AS YOU ALL PROBABLY KNOW , AN OVERVOLTAGE IS NOT PROTECTED BY
>BREAKERS. OUR SL30, 327 AUTO PILOTS AND .....EVERYTHING FRIED.
>
>WE SENT OUR COOKED EFIS, AND EIS TO GRT AND TOLD THEM THAT IT WAS
>NOT THEIR EQUIPMENT THAT FAILED BUT RATHER THE ABOVE,,,, THEIR
>RESPONSE.... THEY SENT US NEW ONES ? IT IS RARE TO FIND A COMPANY
>WITH THAT MUCH EXPERTISE AND ... HOW DO YOU DESCRIBE THAT KIND OF
>SERVICE? GOOD WILL?
>
>FRED HOLLOWAY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | W Meier <befliegen(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Radios squawk ...literally |
Try turning one of the transmitters off. If both are transmitting at
the same time (not by design, but for some unknown reason), the
frequencies "beat" against each other and the resultant squeal is the
difference between them.
Wayne
Jerry2DT(at)aol.com wrote:
> Folks,
>
> Away from home with very annoying problem... Dual Icom's, dual
> antennas,same problem either one. Hit transmit and I send out a squeal
> with voice. other pilots say it is LOUD!! Before I borrow tools and
> tear things apart, any suggestions? Only one PTT switch wired in at
> present. Sound like a bad ground somewheres?
>
> Any and all help very appreciated.
>
> Jerry Cochran
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> See what's free at AOL.com
> <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503>.
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Digital Ampmeter |
I installed a 50 mV shunt in the AWG 6 wire coming from the alternator, to
measure Amps "produced" by it, and I don't want to put an analog Ampmeter in
my pannel.
Can someone please indicate me a source and a model of digital ampmeter to
connect to my shunt.
TIA
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Digital Ampmeter |
>
>
>I installed a 50 mV shunt in the AWG 6 wire coming from the alternator, to
>measure Amps "produced" by it, and I don't want to put an analog Ampmeter
>in my pannel.
>Can someone please indicate me a source and a model of digital ampmeter to
>connect to my shunt.
>
>TIA
>Carlos
It's not a simple answer. Unlike the ordinary analog instrument,
a digital instrument cares about how much voltage is on the shunt
with respect to ground. The instrument is trying to deduce and display
a voltage on the order of millivolts while shunt is riding above ground
by about 14,000 millivolts and has a lot of 'noise' on it. The ability
to ignore the big picture while staying accurately focused on the little
picture is not a trivial task.
Most manufacturers get around it by using the hall effect sensor
which doesn't care how much voltage is on the sensed wire . . . it
cares only about the magnetic field around the wire that results
from the flow of the current to be measured.
If you're dead set against an analog (pretty cheap at $50) like
https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/AEC/9007/9007.html
then in order to use a digital instrument, you'll need to
find one that can either run from your 14v bus and resolve
a millivolt signal riding on 14v common mode or select an
LCD instrument that runs from a 9v battery (just leave it on
all the time. Battery lasts for months!) and doesn't worry
about the 14v common mode thing. An example of the later
instrument can be seen at:
http://www.mpja.com/download/12205me.pdf
These are inexpensive but you'll note that the input
signal must lie within plus or minus 1.0 volts of
the instrument's ground (Com Mode Voltage).
Now, there ARE ways that one can craft a shunt signal
processing amplifier using a device with a very high
common mode capability. And example of such a part is
the Analog Devices AD628
http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/AD628.pdf
Note that this puppy is designed to live in a very
large common mode range of over plus/minus 100 volts.
This is the type of device employed by folks to choose to
offer digital displays driven by shunts. However, most
digital suppliers no probably use hall-sensors and step
over the common mode limits.
I thought JPI or Electronics International had stand
alone ammeters and voltmeters but a quick check of their
websites didn't turn anything up. Perhaps someone else on
the list will have some suggestions. It seems the trends
are toward multifunction instrument packages that include
volts and amps. Stand alone instruments are going to be
increasingly difficult to find.
The easiest thing to do is bite the bullet and
go the stone-simple analog instrument. You can spend
a lot of time and a lot more money getting to the
digital solution.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Digital Ampmeter (P.S.) |
I installed a 50 mV shunt in the AWG 6 wire coming from the
alternator, to measure Amps "produced" by it, and I don't want
to put an analog Ampmeter in my pannel. Can someone please indicate
me a source and a model of digital ampmeter to connect to my shunt.
TIA
Carlos
It's not a simple answer. Unlike the ordinary analog instrument,
a digital instrument cares about how much voltage is on the shunt
with respect to ground. The instrument is trying to deduce and display
a voltage on the order of millivolts while shunt is riding above ground
by about 14,000 millivolts and has a lot of 'noise' on it. The ability
to ignore the big picture while staying accurately focused on the little
picture is not a trivial task.
Most manufacturers get around it by using the hall effect sensor
which doesn't care how much voltage is on the sensed wire . . . it
cares only about the magnetic field around the wire that results
from the flow of the current to be measured.
If you're dead set against an analog (pretty cheap at $50) like
https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/AEC/9007/9007.html
then in order to use a digital instrument, you'll need to
find one that can either run from your 14v bus and resolve
a millivolt signal riding on 14v common mode or select an
LCD instrument that runs from a 9v battery (just leave it on
all the time. Battery lasts for months!) and doesn't worry
about the 14v common mode thing. An example of the later
instrument can be seen at:
http://www.mpja.com/download/12205me.pdf
These are inexpensive but you'll note that the input
signal must lie within plus or minus 1.0 volts of
the instrument's ground (Com Mode Voltage).
Now, there ARE ways that one can craft a shunt signal
processing amplifier using a device with a very high
common mode capability. And example of such a part is
the Analog Devices AD628
http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/AD628.pdf
Note that this puppy is designed to live in a very
large common mode range of over plus/minus 100 volts.
This is the type of device employed by folks to choose to
offer digital displays driven by shunts. However, most
digital suppliers no probably use hall-sensors and step
over the common mode limits.
I thought JPI or Electronics International had stand
alone ammeters and voltmeters but a quick check of their
websites didn't turn anything up. Perhaps someone else on
the list will have some suggestions. It seems the trends
are toward multifunction instrument packages that include
volts and amps. Stand alone instruments are going to be
increasingly difficult to find.
The easiest thing to do is bite the bullet and
go the stone-simple analog instrument. You can spend
a lot of time and a lot more money getting to the
digital solution.
P.S.
If you wanted to shed the shunt and roll your own hall-effect
loadmeter, consider the parts from AmpLoc at:
http://amploc.com/PRO%20Series.pdf
You could combine one of these sensors with an inexpensive
DPM . . .
http://mpja.com/productview.asp?product=16179+ME
. . . and probably craft a loadmeter for under $40 in materials
and take care of the common mode problem at the same time.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: Digital Ampmeter |
Bob
Thanks for your quick and complete response.
I have a couple of (electric instruments challenged guy) questions:
If I use the first digital panel meter you suggested
(http://www.mpja.com/download/12205me.pdf)
do I simply connect power (9V and -) and the 2 wires from the shunt, and it
will indicate Amps?
The "Full scale range" of 200mV indicated in the specifications, has it
anything to do with the 50mV characteristic of my shunt ?
Carlos
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 10:26 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Digital Ampmeter (P.S.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I installed a 50 mV shunt in the AWG 6 wire coming from the
> alternator, to measure Amps "produced" by it, and I don't want
> to put an analog Ampmeter in my pannel. Can someone please indicate
> me a source and a model of digital ampmeter to connect to my shunt.
>
> TIA
> Carlos
>
> It's not a simple answer. Unlike the ordinary analog instrument,
> a digital instrument cares about how much voltage is on the shunt
> with respect to ground. The instrument is trying to deduce and display
> a voltage on the order of millivolts while shunt is riding above ground
> by about 14,000 millivolts and has a lot of 'noise' on it. The ability
> to ignore the big picture while staying accurately focused on the little
> picture is not a trivial task.
>
> Most manufacturers get around it by using the hall effect sensor
> which doesn't care how much voltage is on the sensed wire . . . it
> cares only about the magnetic field around the wire that results
> from the flow of the current to be measured.
>
> If you're dead set against an analog (pretty cheap at $50) like
>
> https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/AEC/9007/9007.html
>
> then in order to use a digital instrument, you'll need to
> find one that can either run from your 14v bus and resolve
> a millivolt signal riding on 14v common mode or select an
> LCD instrument that runs from a 9v battery (just leave it on
> all the time. Battery lasts for months!) and doesn't worry
> about the 14v common mode thing. An example of the later
> instrument can be seen at:
>
> http://www.mpja.com/download/12205me.pdf
>
> These are inexpensive but you'll note that the input
> signal must lie within plus or minus 1.0 volts of
> the instrument's ground (Com Mode Voltage).
>
> Now, there ARE ways that one can craft a shunt signal
> processing amplifier using a device with a very high
> common mode capability. And example of such a part is
> the Analog Devices AD628
>
> http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/AD628.pdf
>
> Note that this puppy is designed to live in a very
> large common mode range of over plus/minus 100 volts.
> This is the type of device employed by folks to choose to
> offer digital displays driven by shunts. However, most
> digital suppliers no probably use hall-sensors and step
> over the common mode limits.
>
> I thought JPI or Electronics International had stand
> alone ammeters and voltmeters but a quick check of their
> websites didn't turn anything up. Perhaps someone else on
> the list will have some suggestions. It seems the trends
> are toward multifunction instrument packages that include
> volts and amps. Stand alone instruments are going to be
> increasingly difficult to find.
>
> The easiest thing to do is bite the bullet and
> go the stone-simple analog instrument. You can spend
> a lot of time and a lot more money getting to the
> digital solution.
>
> P.S.
>
> If you wanted to shed the shunt and roll your own hall-effect
> loadmeter, consider the parts from AmpLoc at:
>
> http://amploc.com/PRO%20Series.pdf
>
> You could combine one of these sensors with an inexpensive
> DPM . . .
>
> http://mpja.com/productview.asp?product=16179+ME
>
> . . . and probably craft a loadmeter for under $40 in materials
> and take care of the common mode problem at the same time.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Miles" <terrence_miles(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Cutting off battery posts |
Hi all,
I bought a pair of Yellow Top Optima batteries. They are the absorbed gas
matt type. They are located in the nose area and stacked one on top of the
other in my Velocity XL. I cut the top posts off the bottom battery due to
height limitations and planned to use the side posts.
That turned out to be a mistake. Even though I have good continuity between
the top post nub and the side posts, the battery will not accept an external
charge. It shows 12.1 v or so, but collapses under any kind of load.
Without being all that clear despite my best efforts to learn more of the
mechanical connections involved...the tech service arm of Optima said
cutting off the posts somehow compromises the top-post-to-side-post physical
connection. He also said removing the posts opens the battery's controlled
venting system to outside air.
I was surprised at both of these discoveries...and out $200 to boot.
Anybody out there running side post batteries w/ the top posts removed?
Likely I am back to the drawing boards for a complete redesign now of
battery size and hold downs, but I am considering one alternative and that
is mounting a new Optima upside down with the top posts still in place by
drilling holes in my mounting floor for the posts to protrude into. Risks
there would be if I ever overcharged it, electrolyte would leak on the base
surface. Any thoughts? Suggestions?
Thanks
Terry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Digital Ampmeter |
Since Bob has not answered yet, I will. The 50mV shunt will drop 50mV
at it's rated amperage. You didn't specify what one you have, but let's
assume that it is a 50mV shunt at 50 Amps. The voltage drop across the
shunt will vary from 0V to 50 mV as the current goes from 0A to 50 A.
The digital voltmeter has a 200 mV full scale readout so it will read 0
to 50 mV. If you indeed have the shunt in the example above, then the
meter will read 0-50mV which you can interpret to be 0-50A.
If you have some other range shunt, the you will have to interpret the
reading. For example, if you have a 100 A shunt then it will have a 50
mV drop at 100 amps and the digital meter will read 50 mV when you have
100 amps flowing.
Dick Tasker
Carlos Trigo wrote:
>
>
> Bob
>
> Thanks for your quick and complete response.
>
> I have a couple of (electric instruments challenged guy) questions:
>
> If I use the first digital panel meter you suggested
> (http://www.mpja.com/download/12205me.pdf)
> do I simply connect power (9V and -) and the 2 wires from the shunt,
> and it will indicate Amps?
>
> The "Full scale range" of 200mV indicated in the specifications, has
> it anything to do with the 50mV characteristic of my shunt ?
>
> Carlos
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 10:26 PM
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Digital Ampmeter (P.S.)
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I installed a 50 mV shunt in the AWG 6 wire coming from the
>> alternator, to measure Amps "produced" by it, and I don't want
>> to put an analog Ampmeter in my pannel. Can someone please indicate
>> me a source and a model of digital ampmeter to connect to my shunt.
>>
>> TIA
>> Carlos
>>
>> It's not a simple answer. Unlike the ordinary analog instrument,
>> a digital instrument cares about how much voltage is on the shunt
>> with respect to ground. The instrument is trying to deduce and display
>> a voltage on the order of millivolts while shunt is riding above
>> ground
>> by about 14,000 millivolts and has a lot of 'noise' on it. The ability
>> to ignore the big picture while staying accurately focused on the
>> little
>> picture is not a trivial task.
>>
>> Most manufacturers get around it by using the hall effect sensor
>> which doesn't care how much voltage is on the sensed wire . . . it
>> cares only about the magnetic field around the wire that results
>> from the flow of the current to be measured.
>>
>> If you're dead set against an analog (pretty cheap at $50) like
>>
>> https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/AEC/9007/9007.html
>>
>> then in order to use a digital instrument, you'll need to
>> find one that can either run from your 14v bus and resolve
>> a millivolt signal riding on 14v common mode or select an
>> LCD instrument that runs from a 9v battery (just leave it on
>> all the time. Battery lasts for months!) and doesn't worry
>> about the 14v common mode thing. An example of the later
>> instrument can be seen at:
>>
>> http://www.mpja.com/download/12205me.pdf
>>
>> These are inexpensive but you'll note that the input
>> signal must lie within plus or minus 1.0 volts of
>> the instrument's ground (Com Mode Voltage).
>>
>> Now, there ARE ways that one can craft a shunt signal
>> processing amplifier using a device with a very high
>> common mode capability. And example of such a part is
>> the Analog Devices AD628
>>
>> http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/AD628.pdf
>>
>> Note that this puppy is designed to live in a very
>> large common mode range of over plus/minus 100 volts.
>> This is the type of device employed by folks to choose to
>> offer digital displays driven by shunts. However, most
>> digital suppliers no probably use hall-sensors and step
>> over the common mode limits.
>>
>> I thought JPI or Electronics International had stand
>> alone ammeters and voltmeters but a quick check of their
>> websites didn't turn anything up. Perhaps someone else on
>> the list will have some suggestions. It seems the trends
>> are toward multifunction instrument packages that include
>> volts and amps. Stand alone instruments are going to be
>> increasingly difficult to find.
>>
>> The easiest thing to do is bite the bullet and
>> go the stone-simple analog instrument. You can spend
>> a lot of time and a lot more money getting to the
>> digital solution.
>>
>> P.S.
>>
>> If you wanted to shed the shunt and roll your own hall-effect
>> loadmeter, consider the parts from AmpLoc at:
>>
>> http://amploc.com/PRO%20Series.pdf
>>
>> You could combine one of these sensors with an inexpensive
>> DPM . . .
>>
>> http://mpja.com/productview.asp?product=16179+ME
>>
>> . . . and probably craft a loadmeter for under $40 in materials
>> and take care of the common mode problem at the same time.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Digital Ampmeter |
>
>
>Bob
>
>Thanks for your quick and complete response.
>
>I have a couple of (electric instruments challenged guy) questions:
>
>If I use the first digital panel meter you suggested
>(http://www.mpja.com/download/12205me.pdf)
>do I simply connect power (9V and -) and the 2 wires from the shunt, and
>it will indicate Amps?
>
>The "Full scale range" of 200mV indicated in the specifications, has it
>anything to do with the 50mV characteristic of my shunt ?
No, the instrument cited doesn't have sufficient common mode range to
use with your shunt. You would either have to convert from a shunt to
a hall-effect sensor . . .
-OR- build the signal conditioning amplifier I suggested using the
AD628 chip
-OR- you could use a 9v battery to power the instrument, leave it
hooked up all the time (but easy to replace) and set the instrument
to read 200.0 Mv full-scale. Now, if your shunt is a 50A shunt
(50 mv = 50A) then the instrument will now read correctly in amps
to the nearest 0.1 amps.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Cutting off battery posts |
>
>
>Hi all,
>
>I bought a pair of Yellow Top Optima batteries. They are the absorbed gas
>matt type. They are located in the nose area and stacked one on top of the
>other in my Velocity XL. I cut the top posts off the bottom battery due to
>height limitations and planned to use the side posts.
>
>That turned out to be a mistake. Even though I have good continuity between
>the top post nub and the side posts, the battery will not accept an external
>charge. It shows 12.1 v or so, but collapses under any kind of load.
>Without being all that clear despite my best efforts to learn more of the
>mechanical connections involved...the tech service arm of Optima said
>cutting off the posts somehow compromises the top-post-to-side-post physical
>connection. He also said removing the posts opens the battery's controlled
>venting system to outside air.
>
>I was surprised at both of these discoveries...and out $200 to boot.
>
>Anybody out there running side post batteries w/ the top posts removed?
Without knowing the details of how the post is molded and retained
in the battery housing, the experiment is not without risk . . . when
you cut the posts off, were they not solid? I.e., a smooth lead alloy
surface with no holes? I'm mystified as to how this would have compromised
the seal if they were smooth, contiguous surfaces after cutting.
>Likely I am back to the drawing boards for a complete redesign now of
>battery size and hold downs, but I am considering one alternative and that
>is mounting a new Optima upside down with the top posts still in place by
>drilling holes in my mounting floor for the posts to protrude into. Risks
>there would be if I ever overcharged it, electrolyte would leak on the base
>surface. Any thoughts? Suggestions?
Those are real "pig" batteries. Do you NEED the capacity? Or the weight?
As I recall, the smallest of the yellow-top batteries are something on
the order of 50 a.h. batteries at a 2-hour rate and weighs about 44 pounds.
Is this the battery we're talking about?
http://tinyurl.com/2z8xgu
Unless you need the weight, surely there are smaller batteries that meet
your electrical needs that don't cost so much and will fit into the space
allotted?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | GRT-EIS Tach input |
Fellow Builders,
Currently close to completing wiring on an RV-9A.=C2- Among the last of th
e=C2- connections to complete are the tach input to the GR EIS.=C2-
I'm going to connect both mags to the input, using a switch to select L or R
input for RPM drop at runup.=C2-=C2-Two toggle switches are used for th
e L and R mag on/off.
Do I need to connect the tach=C2-input directly to the mags using a sepera
te shielded wire or can I simply use a double faston tab at the toggle switc
h to continue the mag wire to the EIS input?=C2- I assume if a continuatio
n is acceptable, it should also be shielded with the shield grounded at the
mag switch end - for noise only, not as part of the grounding circuit to shu
t down the mags.
Any and all suggestions are appreciated.
Carl Raichle
Lutz, FL
________________________________________________________________________
AOL at AOL.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Cutting off battery posts |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
The Optimal Battery one might use is the D51:
See http://tinyurl.com/2e3drf
The Optima website is abysmal and never improved or added to.
D51 is 26 pounds and 46 AH. The reason I like this battery is the claimed superior
resistance to vibration. My plan is to eschew the twin-battery and switchover
technique in favor of single-battery simplicity. If you wanted two batteries
these are probably too heavy.
But in my plan, there is an XBM Xantrex Battery Monitor that tells me everything
I need to know beforehand about the battery condition AND how many minutes of
battery life remains if the alternator quits. A second battery is another way
to do this job, but I think the reserve battery is not as good as total info
about the only battery.
I use a racecar battery connect-disconnect switch instead of a contactor. to satisfy
the FAA "one-hand disconnect" rule. The kill switch also cuts off the fuel
and perfoms other "pre-crash" functions.
Yes cutting off the terminals was a mistake. Perhaps Opitma can repair it for you.
Or perhaps "That's the price of an education".
---------
Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an injury to
one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they are aware of their
own self-importance, learn so easily.
--Thomas Szasz
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=120199#120199
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | paul wilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cutting off battery posts |
Hi Terry,
I have 4 un,molested yellow tops (2 trucks with dual setups) and
one with very little use acts just like yours. I think the guy you
talked to is blowing smoke. The vent is independent with the battery
posts, unless you cut into the plastic case. By looking at the
battery it is obvious that there is a conductor path from top to side
posts. If you cut above the plastic surface the conduction path or
vent would not be affected. I think the design uses the top terminal
as the primary connection to the plates and the side post are just an
extension. Thus cutting the top post just above the plastic would
maintain the integrity of the battery. If you have voltage at the
side terminal after the cutting then you still have contact to the
plates and the battery should take a charge.
Bottom line, I think you just got a bad battery. You are not the only
one out there. The last time I bought yellow tops I had to wait for 3
weeks as their production was backed up. Just a sign of problems at
the factory. The quality had been going down hill since Johnson
bought the company.
I am having second thought about Optima.
Regards, Paul
============================
At 08:21 PM 6/22/2007, you wrote:
>
>
>Hi all,
>
>I bought a pair of Yellow Top Optima batteries. They are the absorbed gas
>matt type. They are located in the nose area and stacked one on top of the
>other in my Velocity XL. I cut the top posts off the bottom battery due to
>height limitations and planned to use the side posts.
>
>That turned out to be a mistake. Even though I have good continuity between
>the top post nub and the side posts, the battery will not accept an external
>charge. It shows 12.1 v or so, but collapses under any kind of load.
>Without being all that clear despite my best efforts to learn more of the
>mechanical connections involved...the tech service arm of Optima said
>cutting off the posts somehow compromises the top-post-to-side-post physical
>connection. He also said removing the posts opens the battery's controlled
>venting system to outside air.
>
>I was surprised at both of these discoveries...and out $200 to boot.
>
>Anybody out there running side post batteries w/ the top posts removed?
>
>Likely I am back to the drawing boards for a complete redesign now of
>battery size and hold downs, but I am considering one alternative and that
>is mounting a new Optima upside down with the top posts still in place by
>drilling holes in my mounting floor for the posts to protrude into. Risks
>there would be if I ever overcharged it, electrolyte would leak on the base
>surface. Any thoughts? Suggestions?
>
>Thanks
>Terry
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Digital Ampmeter |
>
>
>Bob
>
>Thanks for your quick and complete response.
>
>I have a couple of (electric instruments challenged guy) questions:
>
>If I use the first digital panel meter you suggested
>(http://www.mpja.com/download/12205me.pdf)
>do I simply connect power (9V and -) and the 2 wires from the shunt, and
>it will indicate Amps?
>
>The "Full scale range" of 200mV indicated in the specifications, has it
>anything to do with the 50mV characteristic of my shunt ?
>
>Carlos
Carlos, I'm not sure we've completely explained all the
toys and tools in the sandbox for achieving what you've
stated as a design goal:
See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/DPM_Ammeter.jpg
This is a schematic for incorporating a low cost, digital
panel meter into an alternator loadmeter function using
a shunt. Note that while the low cost DPMs offer great
accuracy and value, they all have some limitations that make
it a challenge to install for your application. Note that
I show a separate 9v battery. These devices have a very limited
common mode range for the input signals. This means that we cannot
ground the power(-) lead for the DPM to power ground and supply
9V from ships power. The power supply has to "float" with
respect to the signal leads.
Using a battery to power this instrument is perhaps not as
bad an idea as you might think. The DPM draws very little
current and the battery will last for months. So if the
battery is easy to reach (velcro to some handy spot behind
panel) you can consider NOT having an on/off switch.
You'll want to have a 50A shunt . . . no matter what
size alternator you have so that the signal going to
the DPM is 1 millivolt per Amp. When you set the DPM
up to read in millivolts, then the display will
be calibrated to read out directly in amps. The
200 mV input to a 3-1/2 digit DPM has a max reading
of 199.9 mV so your instrument will read Amps of load
to the nearest 0.1 amps.
If you can accommodate the limitations of these inexpensive
but rather capable readout devices, they can offer some
dependable, accurate measurement at very reasonable
prices.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Cutting off battery posts |
| From: | "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com> |
Hi, Terry,
I understand the dual battery setup and the reasons for it, but am still
not convinced the added complexity and weight is offset by the benefits.
I converted to the Odyssey PC925 with 980amp cranking. It's small,
lightweight, $130 and can be positioned any way except upside down. I
removed my original dual battery setup and went for simplicity. Even
with 14-15amp draw with everything turned on, I have more than enough
reserve to get to VFR is the alternator goes down. As far as cranking
power, the single PC925 has enough cranking power that the starter is
likely to melt before the juice is gone, so a second battery doesn't buy
me much except more weight, maintenance, electrical control complexity.
I've done both but would not go back to the two battery arrangement.
The single PC925 fits with lots of room to spare. Just a thought.
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry
Miles
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 10:21 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cutting off battery posts
-->
Hi all,
I bought a pair of Yellow Top Optima batteries. They are the absorbed
gas matt type. They are located in the nose area and stacked one on top
of the
other in my Velocity XL. I cut the top posts off the bottom battery
due to
height limitations and planned to use the side posts.
That turned out to be a mistake. Even though I have good continuity
between the top post nub and the side posts, the battery will not accept
an external charge. It shows 12.1 v or so, but collapses under any kind
of load. Without being all that clear despite my best efforts to learn
more of the mechanical connections involved...the tech service arm of
Optima said cutting off the posts somehow compromises the
top-post-to-side-post physical connection. He also said removing the
posts opens the battery's controlled venting system to outside air.
I was surprised at both of these discoveries...and out $200 to boot.
Anybody out there running side post batteries w/ the top posts removed?
Likely I am back to the drawing boards for a complete redesign now of
battery size and hold downs, but I am considering one alternative and
that is mounting a new Optima upside down with the top posts still in
place by drilling holes in my mounting floor for the posts to protrude
into. Risks there would be if I ever overcharged it, electrolyte would
leak on the base surface. Any thoughts? Suggestions?
Thanks
Terry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Miles" <terrence_miles(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Cutting off battery posts |
Dear Bob, Paul and others,
Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions on my battery post issues. It's the
week-end now and I am not near the hangar to examine matters further. Since
Optima has refused any product warranty, it is all mine now, and so I will
carefully see if I can salvage the thing for shop use and let everyone know
what I discover. This was not my first faulted Yellow Top.
To answer your questions. The post turns out to actually be a lead ring
with a lead insert. The outer ring is about 3/16 inch thick. The lead
insert is clearly undersized maybe by 1/32 inch or so. It is not centered
within the outer ring nor does it appear to be precisely placed at all. (I
say this comparing one post to the other.) (I could have caused this by the
sawing activities--although they are not loose.)
The phone room Optima guy did try to blow smoke a little, but he was quick
to give me another phone number to engineering. The engineering fellow was
more helpful but still some shy on details. He was clear on the vent
issue--but I don't see any vents either, nor did I cut into the case.
They both said the vibration of the actual post sawing could have
compromised the top post/side post/battery chemisty connections.
Electrically there is no resistance from the outer ring to side posts, but
there was resistance when I measured the inner plugs to the side posts.
Bob, your battery link was correct. It is a "pig." I knew from reading
your book that I wanted the advantage of gel or of absorbed glass Mat (AGM)
technology. Mistakenly, I figured the more amps were always better and
saving wgt in the nose was not a factor for me. And I might add if it helps
anyone, I was perhaps over estimating my "in the chocks" ground delays
battery drain time prior to engine start up.
Thank you for helping. I will let everyone know if discover more about
Optima's structure in the week or so ahead. I still plan to stay with a
dual, matched-pair battery architecture. ...now maybe just more
appropriately sized. This was a good lesson learned and better so on the
ground.
Regards,
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 1:07 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cutting off battery posts
>
>
>Hi all,
>
>I bought a pair of Yellow Top Optima batteries. They are the absorbed gas
>matt type. They are located in the nose area and stacked one on top of the
>other in my Velocity XL. I cut the top posts off the bottom battery due
to
>height limitations and planned to use the side posts.
>
>That turned out to be a mistake. Even though I have good continuity
between
>the top post nub and the side posts, the battery will not accept an
external
>charge. It shows 12.1 v or so, but collapses under any kind of load.
>Without being all that clear despite my best efforts to learn more of the
>mechanical connections involved...the tech service arm of Optima said
>cutting off the posts somehow compromises the top-post-to-side-post
physical
>connection. He also said removing the posts opens the battery's controlled
>venting system to outside air.
>
>I was surprised at both of these discoveries...and out $200 to boot.
>
>Anybody out there running side post batteries w/ the top posts removed?
Without knowing the details of how the post is molded and retained
in the battery housing, the experiment is not without risk . . . when
you cut the posts off, were they not solid? I.e., a smooth lead alloy
surface with no holes? I'm mystified as to how this would have
compromised
the seal if they were smooth, contiguous surfaces after cutting.
>Likely I am back to the drawing boards for a complete redesign now of
>battery size and hold downs, but I am considering one alternative and that
>is mounting a new Optima upside down with the top posts still in place by
>drilling holes in my mounting floor for the posts to protrude into. Risks
>there would be if I ever overcharged it, electrolyte would leak on the base
>surface. Any thoughts? Suggestions?
Those are real "pig" batteries. Do you NEED the capacity? Or the weight?
As I recall, the smallest of the yellow-top batteries are something on
the order of 50 a.h. batteries at a 2-hour rate and weighs about 44
pounds.
Is this the battery we're talking about?
http://tinyurl.com/2z8xgu
Unless you need the weight, surely there are smaller batteries that meet
your electrical needs that don't cost so much and will fit into the space
allotted?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Radios squawk ...literally |
| From: | jerry2dt(at)aol.com |
Thanks Wayne,
Already tried that, no joy. Currently on a trip, so will pursue the matter when
I get back to the hangar.
However, problem went away when copilot headset (brand new) is unplugged. Then
both COMMS work fine, transmit and receive...
Jerry Cochran
From: W Meier <befliegen(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radios squawk ...literally
Try turning one of the transmitters off. If both are transmitting at
the same time (not by design, but for some unknown reason), the
frequencies "beat" against each other and the resultant squeal is the
difference between them.
Wayne
Jerry2DT(at)aol.com wrote:
> Folks,
>
> Away from home with very annoying problem... Dual Icom's, dual
> antennas,same problem either one. Hit transmit and I send out a squeal
> with voice. other pilots say it is LOUD!! Before I borrow tools and
> tear things apart, any suggestions? Only one PTT switch wired in at
> present. Sound like a bad ground somewheres?
>
> Any and all help very appreciated.
>
> Jerry Cochran
-----Original Message-----
From: AeroElectric-List Digest Server <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:55 pm
Subject: AeroElectric-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 06/22/07
*
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Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:25 AM - Internal reg failed. Everything fried (Bob Barrow)
2. 06:28 AM - Re: Question about Aux battery contactor on Z30 (Robert L.
Nuckolls, III)
3. 06:51 AM - Re: Internal reg failed. Everything fried (Robert L.
Nuckolls, III)
4. 08:25 AM - Re: Radios squawk ...literally (W Meier)
5. 08:56 AM - Digital Ampmeter (Carlos Trigo)
6. 01:08 PM - Re: Digital Ampmeter (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 01:26 PM - Digital Ampmeter (P.S.) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 02:47 PM - Re: Digital Ampmeter (Carlos Trigo)
9. 07:23 PM - Cutting off battery posts (Terry Miles)
10. 07:40 PM - Re: Digital Ampmeter (Richard E. Tasker)
11. 07:46 PM - Re: Digital Ampmeter (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 09:08 PM - Re: Cutting off battery posts (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
From: "Bob Barrow" <bobbarrow10(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Internal reg failed. Everything fried
The following copy of a post on the Yahoo GRT_EFIS group site is most
interesting. It seems the internal regulator on a Vans supplied alternator
failed on an RV and the resultant overvoltage fried all of the avionics.
FOR THE WHAT ITS WORTH COLUMN. WE HAVE HAD THE GRT EFIS AND EIS
INSTALLED IN AN RV9A AND HAVE NOTHING BUT GOOD THINGS TO SAY ABOUT
THE COMPANY, THE PEOPLE AND THE EQUIPMENT.
WE HAD OVER 300 HRS ON THE GRT EQUIP AND WE WERE FLYING FROM TYLER
TEXAS TO VICKSBURG MISSISSIPPI WHEN OUR ALT (FROM VANS FIREWALL
FORWARD PACKAGE) TOSSED ITS INTERNAL VOLTAGE REGULATOR INTO THE
ARMATURE. THE RESULT WAS THAT EVERTYING FRIED.
AS YOU ALL PROBABLY KNOW , AN OVERVOLTAGE IS NOT PROTECTED BY
BREAKERS. OUR SL30, 327 AUTO PILOTS AND .....EVERYTHING FRIED.
WE SENT OUR COOKED EFIS, AND EIS TO GRT AND TOLD THEM THAT IT WAS
NOT THEIR EQUIPMENT THAT FAILED BUT RATHER THE ABOVE,,,, THEIR
RESPONSE.... THEY SENT US NEW ONES ? IT IS RARE TO FIND A COMPANY
WITH THAT MUCH EXPERTISE AND ... HOW DO YOU DESCRIBE THAT KIND OF
SERVICE? GOOD WILL?
FRED HOLLOWAY
_________________________________________________________________
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________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Question about Aux battery contactor on Z30
>Bob,
>
>Thank you for the quick response and the multiply options. In building an
>airplane, so far, the electrical is by far the most intriguing to me.
>Thanks again,
I'm pleased that you find value in the
$time$ you spend here . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Internal reg failed. Everything fried
. . . any student of the assemblage of simple-ideas that
form a useful invention ultimately comes to understand
that the risk for such events is never zero . . . and the
$time$ to achieve 1x10^-6 reliability is great.
So, the cost effective approach hangs a hat on a parallel
concept . . . failure tolerance.
Assuming we know nothing about the pedigree of the simple-
ideas and cooks that crafted any particular alternator, the
prudent system designer simply assumes that the alternator can
and will fail in ugly ways at some point in time.
The traditional approach to making that failure tolerable
is to (1) fit the system with a means by which the pilot
exercises absolute control, (2) fit the system with active
notification of malfunction and (3) install an automatic,
milliseconds fast responder to the OV event that exercises
feature (1) which causes feature (2) to announce that the
alternator is off line . . . for whatever reason.
In terms of SYSTEM reliability, one can easily deduce that
the likelihood of a failure in the alternator and in either
(1), (2) or (3) happening together on the same tank full of
fuel is exceedingly small. Now if one has a well considered
plan-b for the unexpected alternator shut-down event, then
the builder has crafted great SYSTEM reliability from
a collection of components for which there is little or no
data as to the reliability of any one component.
The anecdote cited has no "hard evidence" by virtue of
an autopsy of the alleged failure but the byproducts of
that failure are inarguable and the source of the energy
that caused the damage is not debatable. This is an expensive
lesson that has taxed the $time$ of someone else . . . who has
seen fit to make us beneficiaries of his/her experience
and observations.
It would be foolish of us not to exploit that information
and apply the best-we-know-how-to-do as a prophylactic against
sharing the writer's experience. This ladies and gentlemen
is not a dark-n-stormy-night story that yields little
data for refining a recipe for success. It's a bright-light-
of-day-illumination of how a particular recipe failed
in expensive ways but fortunately without injury to the
"cooks".
Thank you Mr. Barrow for sharing this with us.
Bob . . .
>
>
>The following copy of a post on the Yahoo GRT_EFIS group site is most
>interesting. It seems the internal regulator on a Vans supplied alternator
>failed on an RV and the resultant overvoltage fried all of the avionics.
>
>FOR THE WHAT ITS WORTH COLUMN. WE HAVE HAD THE GRT EFIS AND EIS
>INSTALLED IN AN RV9A AND HAVE NOTHING BUT GOOD THINGS TO SAY ABOUT
>THE COMPANY, THE PEOPLE AND THE EQUIPMENT.
>
>WE HAD OVER 300 HRS ON THE GRT EQUIP AND WE WERE FLYING FROM TYLER
>TEXAS TO VICKSBURG MISSISSIPPI WHEN OUR ALT (FROM VANS FIREWALL
>FORWARD PACKAGE) TOSSED ITS INTERNAL VOLTAGE REGULATOR INTO THE
>ARMATURE. THE RESULT WAS THAT EVERTYING FRIED.
>
>AS YOU ALL PROBABLY KNOW , AN OVERVOLTAGE IS NOT PROTECTED BY
>BREAKERS. OUR SL30, 327 AUTO PILOTS AND .....EVERYTHING FRIED.
>
>WE SENT OUR COOKED EFIS, AND EIS TO GRT AND TOLD THEM THAT IT WAS
>NOT THEIR EQUIPMENT THAT FAILED BUT RATHER THE ABOVE,,,, THEIR
>RESPONSE.... THEY SENT US NEW ONES ? IT IS RARE TO FIND A COMPANY
>WITH THAT MUCH EXPERTISE AND ... HOW DO YOU DESCRIBE THAT KIND OF
>SERVICE? GOOD WILL?
>
>FRED HOLLOWAY
________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
From: W Meier <befliegen(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radios squawk ...literally
Try turning one of the transmitters off. If both are transmitting at
the same time (not by design, but for some unknown reason), the
frequencies "beat" against each other and the resultant squeal is the
difference between them.
Wayne
Jerry2DT(at)aol.com wrote:
> Folks,
>
> Away from home with very annoying problem... Dual Icom's, dual
> antennas,same problem either one. Hit transmit and I send out a squeal
> with voice. other pilots say it is LOUD!! Before I borrow tools and
> tear things apart, any suggestions? Only one PTT switch wired in at
> present. Sound like a bad ground somewheres?
>
> Any and all help very appreciated.
>
> Jerry Cochran
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> See what's free at AOL.com
> <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503>.
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Digital Ampmeter
I installed a 50 mV shunt in the AWG 6 wire coming from the alternator, to
measure Amps "produced" by it, and I don't want to put an analog Ampmeter in
my pannel.
Can someone please indicate me a source and a model of digital ampmeter to
connect to my shunt.
TIA
Carlos
________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Digital Ampmeter
>
>
>I installed a 50 mV shunt in the AWG 6 wire coming from the alternator, to
>measure Amps "produced" by it, and I don't want to put an analog Ampmeter
>in my pannel.
>Can someone please indicate me a source and a model of digital ampmeter to
>connect to my shunt.
>
>TIA
>Carlos
It's not a simple answer. Unlike the ordinary analog instrument,
a digital instrument cares about how much voltage is on the shunt
with respect to ground. The instrument is trying to deduce and display
a voltage on the order of millivolts while shunt is riding above ground
by about 14,000 millivolts and has a lot of 'noise' on it. The ability
to ignore the big picture while staying accurately focused on the little
picture is not a trivial task.
Most manufacturers get around it by using the hall effect sensor
which doesn't care how much voltage is on the sensed wire . . . it
cares only about the magnetic field around the wire that results
from the flow of the current to be measured.
If you're dead set against an analog (pretty cheap at $50) like
https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/AEC/9007/9007.html
then in order to use a digital instrument, you'll need to
find one that can either run from your 14v bus and resolve
a millivolt signal riding on 14v common mode or select an
LCD instrument that runs from a 9v battery (just leave it on
all the time. Battery lasts for months!) and doesn't worry
about the 14v common mode thing. An example of the later
instrument can be seen at:
http://www.mpja.com/download/12205me.pdf
These are inexpensive but you'll note that the input
signal must lie within plus or minus 1.0 volts of
the instrument's ground (Com Mode Voltage).
Now, there ARE ways that one can craft a shunt signal
processing amplifier using a device with a very high
common mode capability. And example of such a part is
the Analog Devices AD628
http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/AD628.pdf
Note that this puppy is designed to live in a very
large common mode range of over plus/minus 100 volts.
This is the type of device employed by folks to choose to
offer digital displays driven by shunts. However, most
digital suppliers no probably use hall-sensors and step
over the common mode limits.
I thought JPI or Electronics International had stand
alone ammeters and voltmeters but a quick check of their
websites didn't turn anything up. Perhaps someone else on
the list will have some suggestions. It seems the trends
are toward multifunction instrument packages that include
volts and amps. Stand alone instruments are going to be
increasingly difficult to find.
The easiest thing to do is bite the bullet and
go the stone-simple analog instrument. You can spend
a lot of time and a lot more money getting to the
digital solution.
Bob . . .
________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Digital Ampmeter (P.S.)
I installed a 50 mV shunt in the AWG 6 wire coming from the
alternator, to measure Amps "produced" by it, and I don't want
to put an analog Ampmeter in my pannel. Can someone please indicate
me a source and a model of digital ampmeter to connect to my shunt.
TIA
Carlos
It's not a simple answer. Unlike the ordinary analog instrument,
a digital instrument cares about how much voltage is on the shunt
with respect to ground. The instrument is trying to deduce and display
a voltage on the order of millivolts while shunt is riding above ground
by about 14,000 millivolts and has a lot of 'noise' on it. The ability
to ignore the big picture while staying accurately focused on the little
picture is not a trivial task.
Most manufacturers get around it by using the hall effect sensor
which doesn't care how much voltage is on the sensed wire . . . it
cares only about the magnetic field around the wire that results
from the flow of the current to be measured.
If you're dead set against an analog (pretty cheap at $50) like
https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/AEC/9007/9007.html
then in order to use a digital instrument, you'll need to
find one that can either run from your 14v bus and resolve
a millivolt signal riding on 14v common mode or select an
LCD instrument that runs from a 9v battery (just leave it on
all the time. Battery lasts for months!) and doesn't worry
about the 14v common mode thing. An example of the later
instrument can be seen at:
http://www.mpja.com/download/12205me.pdf
These are inexpensive but you'll note that the input
signal must lie within plus or minus 1.0 volts of
the instrument's ground (Com Mode Voltage).
Now, there ARE ways that one can craft a shunt signal
processing amplifier using a device with a very high
common mode capability. And example of such a part is
the Analog Devices AD628
http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/AD628.pdf
Note that this puppy is designed to live in a very
large common mode range of over plus/minus 100 volts.
This is the type of device employed by folks to choose to
offer digital displays driven by shunts. However, most
digital suppliers no probably use hall-sensors and step
over the common mode limits.
I thought JPI or Electronics International had stand
alone ammeters and voltmeters but a quick check of their
websites didn't turn anything up. Perhaps someone else on
the list will have some suggestions. It seems the trends
are toward multifunction instrument packages that include
volts and amps. Stand alone instruments are going to be
increasingly difficult to find.
The easiest thing to do is bite the bullet and
go the stone-simple analog instrument. You can spend
a lot of time and a lot more money getting to the
digital solution.
P.S.
If you wanted to shed the shunt and roll your own hall-effect
loadmeter, consider the parts from AmpLoc at:
http://amploc.com/PRO%20Series.pdf
You could combine one of these sensors with an inexpensive
DPM . . .
http://mpja.com/productview.asp?product=16179+ME
. . . and probably craft a loadmeter for under $40 in materials
and take care of the common mode problem at the same time.
Bob . . .
________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Digital Ampmeter
Bob
Thanks for your quick and complete response.
I have a couple of (electric instruments challenged guy) questions:
If I use the first digital panel meter you suggested
(http://www.mpja.com/download/12205me.pdf)
do I simply connect power (9V and -) and the 2 wires from the shunt, and it
will indicate Amps?
The "Full scale range" of 200mV indicated in the specifications, has it
anything to do with the 50mV characteristic of my shunt ?
Carlos
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 10:26 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Digital Ampmeter (P.S.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I installed a 50 mV shunt in the AWG 6 wire coming from the
> alternator, to measure Amps "produced" by it, and I don't want
> to put an analog Ampmeter in my pannel. Can someone please indicate
> me a source and a model of digital ampmeter to connect to my shunt.
>
> TIA
> Carlos
>
> It's not a simple answer. Unlike the ordinary analog instrument,
> a digital instrument cares about how much voltage is on the shunt
> with respect to ground. The instrument is trying to deduce and display
> a voltage on the order of millivolts while shunt is riding above ground
> by about 14,000 millivolts and has a lot of 'noise' on it. The ability
> to ignore the big picture while staying accurately focused on the little
> picture is not a trivial task.
>
> Most manufacturers get around it by using the hall effect sensor
> which doesn't care how much voltage is on the sensed wire . . . it
> cares only about the magnetic field around the wire that results
> from the flow of the current to be measured.
>
> If you're dead set against an analog (pretty cheap at $50) like
>
> https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/AEC/9007/9007.html
>
> then in order to use a digital instrument, you'll need to
> find one that can either run from your 14v bus and resolve
> a millivolt signal riding on 14v common mode or select an
> LCD instrument that runs from a 9v battery (just leave it on
> all the time. Battery lasts for months!) and doesn't worry
> about the 14v common mode thing. An example of the later
> instrument can be seen at:
>
> http://www.mpja.com/download/12205me.pdf
>
> These are inexpensive but you'll note that the input
> signal must lie within plus or minus 1.0 volts of
> the instrument's ground (Com Mode Voltage).
>
> Now, there ARE ways that one can craft a shunt signal
> processing amplifier using a device with a very high
> common mode capability. And example of such a part is
> the Analog Devices AD628
>
> http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/AD628.pdf
>
> Note that this puppy is designed to live in a very
> large common mode range of over plus/minus 100 volts.
> This is the type of device employed by folks to choose to
> offer digital displays driven by shunts. However, most
> digital suppliers no probably use hall-sensors and step
> over the common mode limits.
>
> I thought JPI or Electronics International had stand
> alone ammeters and voltmeters but a quick check of their
> websites didn't turn anything up. Perhaps someone else on
> the list will have some suggestions. It seems the trends
> are toward multifunction instrument packages that include
> volts and amps. Stand alone instruments are going to be
> increasingly difficult to find.
>
> The easiest thing to do is bite the bullet and
> go the stone-simple analog instrument. You can spend
> a lot of time and a lot more money getting to the
> digital solution.
>
> P.S.
>
> If you wanted to shed the shunt and roll your own hall-effect
> loadmeter, consider the parts from AmpLoc at:
>
> http://amploc.com/PRO%20Series.pdf
>
> You could combine one of these sensors with an inexpensive
> DPM . . .
>
> http://mpja.com/productview.asp?product=16179+ME
>
> . . . and probably craft a loadmeter for under $40 in materials
> and take care of the common mode problem at the same time.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________
From: "Terry Miles" <terrence_miles(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cutting off battery posts
Hi all,
I bought a pair of Yellow Top Optima batteries. They are the absorbed gas
matt type. They are located in the nose area and stacked one on top of the
other in my Velocity XL. I cut the top posts off the bottom battery due to
height limitations and planned to use the side posts.
That turned out to be a mistake. Even though I have good continuity between
the top post nub and the side posts, the battery will not accept an external
charge. It shows 12.1 v or so, but collapses under any kind of load.
Without being all that clear despite my best efforts to learn more of the
mechanical connections involved...the tech service arm of Optima said
cutting off the posts somehow compromises the top-post-to-side-post physical
connection. He also said removing the posts opens the battery's controlled
venting system to outside air.
I was surprised at both of these discoveries...and out $200 to boot.
Anybody out there running side post batteries w/ the top posts removed?
Likely I am back to the drawing boards for a complete redesign now of
battery size and hold downs, but I am considering one alternative and that
is mounting a new Optima upside down with the top posts still in place by
drilling holes in my mounting floor for the posts to protrude into. Risks
there would be if I ever overcharged it, electrolyte would leak on the base
surface. Any thoughts? Suggestions?
Thanks
Terry
________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________
From: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Digital Ampmeter
Since Bob has not answered yet, I will. The 50mV shunt will drop 50mV
at it's rated amperage. You didn't specify what one you have, but let's
assume that it is a 50mV shunt at 50 Amps. The voltage drop across the
shunt will vary from 0V to 50 mV as the current goes from 0A to 50 A.
The digital voltmeter has a 200 mV full scale readout so it will read 0
to 50 mV. If you indeed have the shunt in the example above, then the
meter will read 0-50mV which you can interpret to be 0-50A.
If you have some other range shunt, the you will have to interpret the
reading. For example, if you have a 100 A shunt then it will have a 50
mV drop at 100 amps and the digital meter will read 50 mV when you have
100 amps flowing.
Dick Tasker
Carlos Trigo wrote:
>
>
> Bob
>
> Thanks for your quick and complete response.
>
> I have a couple of (electric instruments challenged guy) questions:
>
> If I use the first digital panel meter you suggested
> (http://www.mpja.com/download/12205me.pdf)
> do I simply connect power (9V and -) and the 2 wires from the shunt,
> and it will indicate Amps?
>
> The "Full scale range" of 200mV indicated in the specifications, has
> it anything to do with the 50mV characteristic of my shunt ?
>
> Carlos
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 10:26 PM
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Digital Ampmeter (P.S.)
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I installed a 50 mV shunt in the AWG 6 wire coming from the
>> alternator, to measure Amps "produced" by it, and I don't want
>> to put an analog Ampmeter in my pannel. Can someone please indicate
>> me a source and a model of digital ampmeter to connect to my shunt.
>>
>> TIA
>> Carlos
>>
>> It's not a simple answer. Unlike the ordinary analog instrument,
>> a digital instrument cares about how much voltage is on the shunt
>> with respect to ground. The instrument is trying to deduce and display
>> a voltage on the order of millivolts while shunt is riding above
>> ground
>> by about 14,000 millivolts and has a lot of 'noise' on it. The ability
>> to ignore the big picture while staying accurately focused on the
>> little
>> picture is not a trivial task.
>>
>> Most manufacturers get around it by using the hall effect sensor
>> which doesn't care how much voltage is on the sensed wire . . . it
>> cares only about the magnetic field around the wire that results
>> from the flow of the current to be measured.
>>
>> If you're dead set against an analog (pretty cheap at $50) like
>>
>> https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/AEC/9007/9007.html
>>
>> then in order to use a digital instrument, you'll need to
>> find one that can either run from your 14v bus and resolve
>> a millivolt signal riding on 14v common mode or select an
>> LCD instrument that runs from a 9v battery (just leave it on
>> all the time. Battery lasts for months!) and doesn't worry
>> about the 14v common mode thing. An example of the later
>> instrument can be seen at:
>>
>> http://www.mpja.com/download/12205me.pdf
>>
>> These are inexpensive but you'll note that the input
>> signal must lie within plus or minus 1.0 volts of
>> the instrument's ground (Com Mode Voltage).
>>
>> Now, there ARE ways that one can craft a shunt signal
>> processing amplifier using a device with a very high
>> common mode capability. And example of such a part is
>> the Analog Devices AD628
>>
>> http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/AD628.pdf
>>
>> Note that this puppy is designed to live in a very
>> large common mode range of over plus/minus 100 volts.
>> This is the type of device employed by folks to choose to
>> offer digital displays driven by shunts. However, most
>> digital suppliers no probably use hall-sensors and step
>> over the common mode limits.
>>
>> I thought JPI or Electronics International had stand
>> alone ammeters and voltmeters but a quick check of their
>> websites didn't turn anything up. Perhaps someone else on
>> the list will have some suggestions. It seems the trends
>> are toward multifunction instrument packages that include
>> volts and amps. Stand alone instruments are going to be
>> increasingly difficult to find.
>>
>> The easiest thing to do is bite the bullet and
>> go the stone-simple analog instrument. You can spend
>> a lot of time and a lot more money getting to the
>> digital solution.
>>
>> P.S.
>>
>> If you wanted to shed the shunt and roll your own hall-effect
>> loadmeter, consider the parts from AmpLoc at:
>>
>> http://amploc.com/PRO%20Series.pdf
>>
>> You could combine one of these sensors with an inexpensive
>> DPM . . .
>>
>> http://mpja.com/productview.asp?product=16179+ME
>>
>> . . . and probably craft a loadmeter for under $40 in materials
>> and take care of the common mode problem at the same time.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
--
________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Digital Ampmeter
>
>
>Bob
>
>Thanks for your quick and complete response.
>
>I have a couple of (electric instruments challenged guy) questions:
>
>If I use the first digital panel meter you suggested
>(http://www.mpja.com/download/12205me.pdf)
>do I simply connect power (9V and -) and the 2 wires from the shunt, and
>it will indicate Amps?
>
>The "Full scale range" of 200mV indicated in the specifications, has it
>anything to do with the 50mV characteristic of my shunt ?
No, the instrument cited doesn't have sufficient common mode range to
use with your shunt. You would either have to convert from a shunt to
a hall-effect sensor . . .
-OR- build the signal conditioning amplifier I suggested using the
AD628 chip
-OR- you could use a 9v battery to power the instrument, leave it
hooked up all the time (but easy to replace) and set the instrument
to read 200.0 Mv full-scale. Now, if your shunt is a 50A shunt
(50 mv = 50A) then the instrument will now read correctly in amps
to the nearest 0.1 amps.
Bob . . .
________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cutting off battery posts
>
>
>Hi all,
>
>I bought a pair of Yellow Top Optima batteries. They are the absorbed gas
>matt type. They are located in the nose area and stacked one on top of the
>other in my Velocity XL. I cut the top posts off the bottom battery due to
>height limitations and planned to use the side posts.
>
>That turned out to be a mistake. Even though I have good continuity between
>the top post nub and the side posts, the battery will not accept an external
>charge. It shows 12.1 v or so, but collapses under any kind of load.
>Without being all that clear despite my best efforts to learn more of the
>mechanical connections involved...the tech service arm of Optima said
>cutting off the posts somehow compromises the top-post-to-side-post physical
>connection. He also said removing the posts opens the battery's controlled
>venting system to outside air.
>
>I was surprised at both of these discoveries...and out $200 to boot.
>
>Anybody out there running side post batteries w/ the top posts removed?
Without knowing the details of how the post is molded and retained
in the battery housing, the experiment is not without risk . . . when
you cut the posts off, were they not solid? I.e., a smooth lead alloy
surface with no holes? I'm mystified as to how this would have compromised
the seal if they were smooth, contiguous surfaces after cutting.
>Likely I am back to the drawing boards for a complete redesign now of
>battery size and hold downs, but I am considering one alternative and that
>is mounting a new Optima upside down with the top posts still in place by
>drilling holes in my mounting floor for the posts to protrude into. Risks
>there would be if I ever overcharged it, electrolyte would leak on the base
>surface. Any thoughts? Suggestions?
Those are real "pig" batteries. Do you NEED the capacity? Or the weight?
As I recall, the smallest of the yellow-top batteries are something on
the order of 50 a.h. batteries at a 2-hour rate and weighs about 44 pounds.
Is this the battery we're talking about?
http://tinyurl.com/2z8xgu
Unless you need the weight, surely there are smaller batteries that meet
your electrical needs that don't cost so much and will fit into the space
allotted?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: The importance of "good" numbers . . . |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Nice info Bob. Temperature measuments are hard to do. I think this problem has
kept cold fusion guys going for over a decade. I frankly worry about global warming
that has been accelerating for the past six years... on Mars. There are
some "hand-waving" explanations for this, but you gotta' wonder....
> (From USA Today: The USA's highest temperature, 134 on July 10, 1913 in Death
Valley, Calif., is also the official highest temperature in the Western Hemisphere.
>
> The world's highest official temperature is 136 recorded at El Azizia, Libya,
on Sept. 13, 1922.
>
> Not everyone agrees that the Death Valley and El Azizia records are valid. Some
meteorologists say that a sandstorm was going on at the time 134 was measured
at Greenland Ranch in Death Valley and that very hot sand and dust could have
hit the thermometer inside its shelter, pushing its measurement higher than
the actual temperature of the air.
Now the TRUE story (well...legend has it), is that the guy at Furnace Creek July
10, 1913, didn't go out to Badwater, where the official thermometer coop was
a 1/2 mile out on the salt flat. He merely estimated the temperature at the -282
elevation by knowing that it ran some few degrees hotter than the temperature
at Furnace Creek. So the record USA high temperature is unofficial in the
strictest sense. If you go to Furnace Creek in mid-July you will know this is
probably true.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=120280#120280
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Feldtman" <bobf(at)feldtman.com> |
Bob - where is an easy internet site to find the pinout diagram for Apollo
GX-65? I know the GPS data output I need is on pin 5 (to power a trio
autopilot) but would like to confirm the pinout and be sure the numbering
system I have in my mind is from the "back" of the unit looking at the
serial port - thanks
bobf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Casey <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning |
I have a B&C voltage regulator that controls one of their 60-amp,
12volt alternators. One characteristic of this regulator that has
been there since day one is that immediately upon starting the engine
I get a steady low-voltage light (LED), even though the measured
output voltage is normal. By the time I do a runup and take off the
light goes off. It is a steady light, not the flashing light that
would indicate an actual low voltage condition. I went to a lower
bypass resistor, but it is still there. Anyone else have the
problem? For now I just ignore it.
Gary Casey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GX-65 pin out |
One of the websites of one of the guys that frequent these lists has
some of the older manuals linked or on his site.
I have a GX60 - I'll look at my manual........
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Feldtman
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 8:31 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: GX-65 pin out
Bob - where is an easy internet site to find the pinout diagram for
Apollo GX-65? I know the GPS data output I need is on pin 5 (to power a
trio autopilot) but would like to confirm the pinout and be sure the
numbering system I have in my mind is from the "back" of the unit
looking at the serial port - thanks
bobf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Feldtman" <bobf(at)feldtman.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GX-65 pin out |
thanks Ralph! I'fe found the manual on line but it does not have a
pinout.diagram, nor a list of the pin numbers and what they are. I did find
on the tru trak web site that 5 is GPS and 22 if the GX has GPSS
thanks
bob
On 6/24/07, Ralph E. Capen wrote:
>
> One of the websites of one of the guys that frequent these lists has some
> of the older manuals linked or on his site.
>
> I have a GX60 - I'll look at my manual........
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Robert Feldtman
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Sent:* Sunday, June 24, 2007 8:31 AM
> *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: GX-65 pin out
>
> Bob - where is an easy internet site to find the pinout diagram for Apollo
> GX-65? I know the GPS data output I need is on pin 5 (to power a trio
> autopilot) but would like to confirm the pinout and be sure the numbering
> system I have in my mind is from the "back" of the unit looking at the
> serial port - thanks
>
> bobf
>
> * href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com*
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
Cheers,
I have read that some are substituting race-car kill switches for
battery contactors. At present I plan to start with only about 20 amps
dynamo and regret the constant load of a contactor.
If you are operating such a devise, I would admire a short
description and appreciation of its use - and perhaps a point toward a
useful source. US or UK no problem.
Thanks,
Ferg
Europa Classic 914 mono
________________________________________________________________________________
I've attached a UPS full stack wiring diagram that includes the GX-60/65
(same pin-outs). In case it doesn't come thru:
RxD1 = pin 4
Serial Gnd = pin 3
TxD1 = pin 5
TxD2 = pin 22
Serial gnd = pin 20
RxD2 = pin 21
If you look closely at the connector, the pin numbers are molded into the
plastic. I need really good light and/or magnifying glass to read them, but
they are on all my UPS radios with D-Subs.
Regards,
Greg Young - Houston (DWH)
RV-6 N6GY ...project Phoenix
Navion N5221K - just an XXL RV-6A
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
Feldtman
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 7:31 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: GX-65 pin out
Bob - where is an easy internet site to find the pinout diagram for Apollo
GX-65? I know the GPS data output I need is on pin 5 (to power a trio
autopilot) but would like to confirm the pinout and be sure the numbering
system I have in my mind is from the "back" of the unit looking at the
serial port - thanks
bobf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Feldtman" <bobf(at)feldtman.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GX-65 pin out |
thanks Greg!
bobf
N125GS
On 6/24/07, Greg Young <gyoung@cs-sol.com> wrote:
>
> I've attached a UPS full stack wiring diagram that includes the GX-60/65
> (same pin-outs). In case it doesn't come thru:
>
> RxD1 = pin 4
> Serial Gnd = pin 3
> TxD1 = pin 5
> TxD2 = pin 22
> Serial gnd = pin 20
> RxD2 = pin 21
>
> If you look closely at the connector, the pin numbers are molded into the
> plastic. I need really good light and/or magnifying glass to read them, but
> they are on all my UPS radios with D-Subs.
>
>
> Regards,
> Greg Young - Houston (DWH)
> RV-6 N6GY ...project Phoenix
> Navion N5221K - just an XXL RV-6A
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Robert
> Feldtman
> *Sent:* Sunday, June 24, 2007 7:31 AM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: GX-65 pin out
>
> Bob - where is an easy internet site to find the pinout diagram for Apollo
> GX-65? I know the GPS data output I need is on pin 5 (to power a trio
> autopilot) but would like to confirm the pinout and be sure the numbering
> system I have in my mind is from the "back" of the unit looking at the
> serial port - thanks
>
> bobf
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning |
>
>I have a B&C voltage regulator that controls one of their 60-amp,
>12volt alternators. One characteristic of this regulator that has
>been there since day one is that immediately upon starting the engine
>I get a steady low-voltage light (LED), even though the measured
>output voltage is normal. By the time I do a runup and take off the
>light goes off. It is a steady light, not the flashing light that
>would indicate an actual low voltage condition. I went to a lower
>bypass resistor,
??? bypass resistor? Don't know what that is. Oh, you're using
a LED. Try hooking a incandescent lamp up temporarily and see
if that works. The circuit was not originally designed to work
with LEDs. What LED resistor values are you using?
> but it is still there. Anyone else have the
>problem? For now I just ignore it.
What does it do when the engine is running and the
alternator is shut off? Does it come back on steady
or does it flash? I think your resistor values
need to be reviewed.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery switch |
>
>Cheers,
> I have read that some are substituting race-car kill switches for
>battery contactors. At present I plan to start with only about 20 amps
>dynamo and regret the constant load of a contactor.
> If you are operating such a devise, I would admire a short
>description and appreciation of its use - and perhaps a point toward a
>useful source. US or UK no problem.
How much of a reach is it to get at a switch mounted
right next to the battery. Harbor Freight sells a
device that looks like this . . .
http://tinyurl.com/2u7wgj
. . . for about $6.00 . . . oops, strike that. They're
on sale right now for 2.99 at http://harborfreight.com
as item #92688. Marine parts dealers sell a variety of
battery switches too.
I'm working on the alternator drive stand and will
need some high current, manual switches. I think I'll
run down tomorrow and pick up a fist full.
Obviously, for use as a battery contactor replacement,
you want it to be within convenient reach of the pilot.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | paul wilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery switch |
West Marine has several in their on-line catalog . They have full
descriptions and specs.
The one I use in my truck works great but sadly is very robust for an
airplane. Check their catalog.
Summit Racing sells similar ones.
Paul
===============
At 07:05 PM 6/24/2007, you wrote:
>
>Cheers,
> I have read that some are substituting race-car kill switches for
>battery contactors. At present I plan to start with only about 20 amps
>dynamo and regret the constant load of a contactor.
> If you are operating such a devise, I would admire a short
>description and appreciation of its use - and perhaps a point toward a
>useful source. US or UK no problem.
>Thanks,
>Ferg
>Europa Classic 914 mono
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning |
I would like to subsitute an LED for the Low Voltage bulb that came with
the B&C LR3C-14 . I posed the question to Tim Hedding @ B&C and received
this in response.
If you use an LED instead of an incandescent lamp, install a 470 - 510 Ohm,
1/2 Watt, resistor between terminals 3 and 5 of the LR3C-14 (or the SB1B-14)
so that the LED does not glow dimly all of the time.
Deems Davis # 406
Engine / Wiring and Panel Stuff
http://deemsrv10.com/
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
6/25/2007
Hello Ferg, Here is a company that sells a variety of mechanical battery
switches.
You might also want to consider this solenoid type switch with a very low
amperage holding power.
http://bluesea.com/category/1/products/5301
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery switch
Cheers,
I have read that some are substituting race-car kill switches for
battery contactors. At present I plan to start with only about 20 amps
dynamo and regret the constant load of a contactor.
If you are operating such a devise, I would admire a short
description and appreciation of its use - and perhaps a point toward a
useful source. US or UK no problem.
Thanks,
Ferg
Europa Classic 914 mono
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Pengilly" <peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
| Subject: | GRT-EIS Tach input |
The tach input to the EIS is fine if it comes from the back of the mag
switches. Don't forget to put the 27Kohm resistors in series from mag
switch to input change over switch. Doesn't need to be shielded, but
probably won't hurt. See Bob's notes on grounding P leads (IIRC should
not be connected to earth at the mag switch end), any continuation wire
should be grounded at one end only - probably EIS end - and will not
form any part of the mag grounding circuit. The purpose of the 27Kohm
resistor is to make sure that's so.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
carlrai(at)aol.com
Sent: 23 June 2007 11:56
Subject: AeroElectric-List: GRT-EIS Tach input
Fellow Builders,
Currently close to completing wiring on an RV-9A. Among the last of the
connections to complete are the tach input to the GR EIS.
I'm going to connect both mags to the input, using a switch to select L
or R input for RPM drop at runup. Two toggle switches are used for the
L and R mag on/off.
Do I need to connect the tach input directly to the mags using a
seperate shielded wire or can I simply use a double faston tab at the
toggle switch to continue the mag wire to the EIS input? I assume if a
continuation is acceptable, it should also be shielded with the shield
grounded at the mag switch end - for noise only, not as part of the
grounding circuit to shut down the mags.
Any and all suggestions are appreciated.
Carl Raichle
Lutz, FL
_____
AOL at <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437> AOL.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com> |
| Subject: | Latest GTX-327 manual? |
Anyone have a Rev K. of the 327 Transponder manual? The one that is
publicly available is only J, and yet I have one page from a K and would
like to see the remainder as the page I have a pretty different from the J
version of the same page (it's the wiring schematic :) ).
Thanks in advance,
Alan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Reeves <n516dr(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Best Practices - Resistors and pre-made harnesses |
I have a couple of basic questions about best practices...
1.) I have a Dynon EFIS that requires a few resistors on some of the sensor
leads. What is the best way to connect the resistors? Is it OK to crimp fast-on,
butt splices, ring terminals, etc directly onto the resistor itself and cover
/ protect everything with heat shrink?
2.) I have an Approach Systems harness for the Dynon EFIS and the SteinAir harness
for the Dynon EMS. To connect the two units there are a couple of pigtails
that I could just butt splice together. Is this OK to do or should I remove
the wires / pins from one of the harnesses / D-Sub connectors and crimp pins
onto the pigtails of the other pre-fab'd harness and pop those in in their place?
Thanks!
Dan Reeves
RV-7A
---------------------------------
No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
Cheers,
I want to thank all those who answered my question so quickly - Bob,
Nigel, OC, Paul et al. What a library of keen experts to be able to call on!
What a glorious list this is............
I have plans to make a mechanical connection to a back seat battery to allay
any worries about ready availability.
Many thanks again..........
Ferg
Classic 914 Europa mono
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "NEMuzzy" <list01(at)GourmetDamage.com> |
| Subject: | Battery Switches |
The cheap Harbor Freight type battery disconnects are really cheap, and not
near the quality of the Hella disconnect switch. If the key is flexible
plastic, it is the really cheap version. The better ones are a rigid
plastic.
Side note: We used to build battlebots. When we hit the robots with the
cheap switches, the back end would pop out, and the battery was
disconnected. The Hella switches were better, but still vulnerable. The best
switches that we found were the Flaming River disconnects. Model 1003 or
similar. We replaced the metal handle with a drilled socket, so that we
could turn it on and off with an allen wrench. Similar technique would allow
you to remote mount the switch with a torque tube to actuate it.
The Flaming River switch is about a $60 switch. If you want a high quality
disconnect, this is a good one. The Hella switch is about $19. The really
cheap ones may be OK for a garage test stand.
-Norm
<<>Cheers,
> I have read that some are substituting race-car kill switches for
>battery contactors. At present I plan to start with only about 20 amps
>dynamo and regret the constant load of a contactor.
> If you are operating such a devise, I would admire a short
>description and appreciation of its use - and perhaps a point toward a
>useful source. US or UK no problem.
How much of a reach is it to get at a switch mounted
right next to the battery. Harbor Freight sells a
device that looks like this . . .
http://tinyurl.com/2u7wgj
. . . for about $6.00 . . . oops, strike that. They're
on sale right now for 2.99 at http://harborfreight.com
as item #92688. Marine parts dealers sell a variety of
battery switches too.
I'm working on the alternator drive stand and will
need some high current, manual switches. I think I'll
run down tomorrow and pick up a fist full.
Obviously, for use as a battery contactor replacement,
you want it to be within convenient reach of the pilot.
Bob . . .>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Collings" <r.collings(at)onetel.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Europa-List: Battery switch |
Hi again sorry my first email went wrong , look up www.flamingriver.com they
have a range of switches that I think fit the bill . Regards Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 2:05 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Battery switch
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle"
>
> Cheers,
> I have read that some are substituting race-car kill switches for
> battery contactors. At present I plan to start with only about 20 amps
> dynamo and regret the constant load of a contactor.
> If you are operating such a devise, I would admire a short
> description and appreciation of its use - and perhaps a point toward a
> useful source. US or UK no problem.
> Thanks,
> Ferg
> Europa Classic 914 mono
>
>
> --
> 11:08
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Switches |
I noticed that Flaming River also has a 100 amps continuous (500 amp for
10 second surges) switch for $26. I would think that that should be
enough for many of our craft (especially if you don't have a starter and
hand prop it).
http://tinyurl.com/34my2a
They also have a combination battery/alternator kill switch, for those
interested in such an animal ($84). Although being a push type and not
a turning switch, it may be easy to accidentally trip it.
http://tinyurl.com/37p54u
Harley Dixon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
NEMuzzy wrote:
>
> The cheap Harbor Freight type battery disconnects are really cheap, and not
> near the quality of the Hella disconnect switch. If the key is flexible
> plastic, it is the really cheap version. The better ones are a rigid
> plastic.
>
> Side note: We used to build battlebots. When we hit the robots with the
> cheap switches, the back end would pop out, and the battery was
> disconnected. The Hella switches were better, but still vulnerable. The best
> switches that we found were the Flaming River disconnects. Model 1003 or
> similar. We replaced the metal handle with a drilled socket, so that we
> could turn it on and off with an allen wrench. Similar technique would allow
> you to remote mount the switch with a torque tube to actuate it.
>
> The Flaming River switch is about a $60 switch. If you want a high quality
> disconnect, this is a good one. The Hella switch is about $19. The really
> cheap ones may be OK for a garage test stand.
>
> -Norm
>
> <<>Cheers,
>
>> I have read that some are substituting race-car kill switches for
>> battery contactors. At present I plan to start with only about 20 amps
>> dynamo and regret the constant load of a contactor.
>> If you are operating such a devise, I would admire a short
>> description and appreciation of its use - and perhaps a point toward a
>> useful source. US or UK no problem.
>>
>
> How much of a reach is it to get at a switch mounted
> right next to the battery. Harbor Freight sells a
> device that looks like this . . .
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2u7wgj
>
> . . . for about $6.00 . . . oops, strike that. They're
> on sale right now for 2.99 at http://harborfreight.com
> as item #92688. Marine parts dealers sell a variety of
> battery switches too.
>
> I'm working on the alternator drive stand and will
> need some high current, manual switches. I think I'll
> run down tomorrow and pick up a fist full.
>
> Obviously, for use as a battery contactor replacement,
> you want it to be within convenient reach of the pilot.
>
> Bob . . .>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Switches |
I noticed that Flaming River also has a 100 amps continuous (500 amp for
10 second surges) switch for $26. I would think that that should be
enough for many of our craft (especially if you don't have a starter and
hand prop it).
http://tinyurl.com/34my2a
They also have a combination battery/alternator kill switch, for those
interested in such an animal ($84). Although being a push type and not
a turning switch, it may be easy to accidentally trip it.
http://tinyurl.com/37p54u
Harley Dixon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
NEMuzzy wrote:
>
> The cheap Harbor Freight type battery disconnects are really cheap, and not
> near the quality of the Hella disconnect switch. If the key is flexible
> plastic, it is the really cheap version. The better ones are a rigid
> plastic.
>
> Side note: We used to build battlebots. When we hit the robots with the
> cheap switches, the back end would pop out, and the battery was
> disconnected. The Hella switches were better, but still vulnerable. The best
> switches that we found were the Flaming River disconnects. Model 1003 or
> similar. We replaced the metal handle with a drilled socket, so that we
> could turn it on and off with an allen wrench. Similar technique would allow
> you to remote mount the switch with a torque tube to actuate it.
>
> The Flaming River switch is about a $60 switch. If you want a high quality
> disconnect, this is a good one. The Hella switch is about $19. The really
> cheap ones may be OK for a garage test stand.
>
> -Norm
>
> <<>Cheers,
>
>> I have read that some are substituting race-car kill switches for
>> battery contactors. At present I plan to start with only about 20 amps
>> dynamo and regret the constant load of a contactor.
>> If you are operating such a devise, I would admire a short
>> description and appreciation of its use - and perhaps a point toward a
>> useful source. US or UK no problem.
>>
>
> How much of a reach is it to get at a switch mounted
> right next to the battery. Harbor Freight sells a
> device that looks like this . . .
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2u7wgj
>
> . . . for about $6.00 . . . oops, strike that. They're
> on sale right now for 2.99 at http://harborfreight.com
> as item #92688. Marine parts dealers sell a variety of
> battery switches too.
>
> I'm working on the alternator drive stand and will
> need some high current, manual switches. I think I'll
> run down tomorrow and pick up a fist full.
>
> Obviously, for use as a battery contactor replacement,
> you want it to be within convenient reach of the pilot.
>
> Bob . . .>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | paul wilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Switches |
Absolutely correct. Having said that, these cheap switches can be
made to work reliably. What I did after finding high resistance in
one position (1-off 2 version) was to drill out the rivets that hold
it together and fix the internals. Probably wont work on all brands,
but the Autozone version was fixable and remained operational after
my fix. My West Marine version works perfect (1-off-2-both) with
undetectable resistance. It is a make before break which is also a
desirable feature.
IMO, Go with the cheap ones and look at the internals. The low cost
is a big advantage.
Paul
=============================
At 09:36 PM 6/25/2007, you wrote:
>
>The cheap Harbor Freight type battery disconnects are really cheap, and not
>near the quality of the Hella disconnect switch. If the key is flexible
>plastic, it is the really cheap version. The better ones are a rigid
>plastic.
>
>Side note: We used to build battlebots. When we hit the robots with the
>cheap switches, the back end would pop out, and the battery was
>disconnected. The Hella switches were better, but still vulnerable. The best
>switches that we found were the Flaming River disconnects. Model 1003 or
>similar. We replaced the metal handle with a drilled socket, so that we
>could turn it on and off with an allen wrench. Similar technique would allow
>you to remote mount the switch with a torque tube to actuate it.
>
>The Flaming River switch is about a $60 switch. If you want a high quality
>disconnect, this is a good one. The Hella switch is about $19. The really
>cheap ones may be OK for a garage test stand.
>
>-Norm
>
><<>Cheers,
> > I have read that some are substituting race-car kill switches for
> >battery contactors. At present I plan to start with only about 20 amps
> >dynamo and regret the constant load of a contactor.
> > If you are operating such a devise, I would admire a short
> >description and appreciation of its use - and perhaps a point toward a
> >useful source. US or UK no problem.
>
> How much of a reach is it to get at a switch mounted
> right next to the battery. Harbor Freight sells a
> device that looks like this . . .
>
>http://tinyurl.com/2u7wgj
>
> . . . for about $6.00 . . . oops, strike that. They're
> on sale right now for 2.99 at http://harborfreight.com
> as item #92688. Marine parts dealers sell a variety of
> battery switches too.
>
> I'm working on the alternator drive stand and will
> need some high current, manual switches. I think I'll
> run down tomorrow and pick up a fist full.
>
> Obviously, for use as a battery contactor replacement,
> you want it to be within convenient reach of the pilot.
>
> Bob . . .>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | When Pitch Trim Systems Turn Ugly |
The article I posted earlier this month has been combed
again for spelling and typos. Revision B is available at:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Trim_System_Failures.pdf
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Physics is like sex: sure, it may )
( give some practical results, but )
( that's not why we do it." )
( )
( Richard P. Feynman )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Best Practices - Resistors and pre-made harnesses |
>I have a couple of basic questions about best practices...
>
>1.) I have a Dynon EFIS that requires a few resistors on some of the
>sensor leads. What is the best way to connect the resistors? Is it OK to
>crimp fast-on, butt splices, ring terminals, etc directly onto the
>resistor itself and cover / protect everything with heat shrink?
>
Consider the techniques described in:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Homeless/Homeless_Components.htm
Hazards to functionality focus on robustness of the components.
Even tho your electrical requirements may be satisfied with say
a 1/4 watt resistor, you may wish to take advantage of the mechanical
robustness of say 1/2 or 1-watt resistors.
>2.) I have an Approach Systems harness for the Dynon EFIS and the SteinAir
>harness for the Dynon EMS. To connect the two units there are a couple of
>pigtails that I could just butt splice together. Is this OK to do or
>should I remove the wires / pins from one of the harnesses / D-Sub
>connectors and crimp pins onto the pigtails of the other pre-fab'd harness
>and pop those in in their place?
Here's a technique to consider when bringing ends of stray
wires together in a wire bundle.
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Tech_Tips/Solder_Lap_Splicing/Solder_Lap_Splices.html
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Physics is like sex: sure, it may )
( give some practical results, but )
( that's not why we do it." )
( )
( Richard P. Feynman )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Orphaned articles |
Found a few articles on the website that were first posted in the What's New
feature but didn't get listed in the table of contents for articles when the
were removed from What's New. Check out the first few listings under "How To"
at:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles.html
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Physics is like sex: sure, it may )
( give some practical results, but )
( that's not why we do it." )
( )
( Richard P. Feynman )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Switches |
NEMuzzy wrote:
>
> The cheap Harbor Freight type battery disconnects are really cheap, and not
> near the quality of the Hella disconnect switch. If the key is flexible
> plastic, it is the really cheap version. The better ones are a rigid
> plastic.
>
> Side note: We used to build battlebots. When we hit the robots with the
> cheap switches, the back end would pop out, and the battery was
> disconnected.
Are you planning to enter your homebuilt airplane in a battlebot contest?
I'm sure the Hella switch is an excellent feat of engineering, but will
it make a difference for a properly installed, well supported battery
cable in a well protected area?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | suggested vendor? |
| From: | Ron Quillin <rjquillin(at)gmail.com> |
I see Garmin has what may be a pretty good rebate program for the GMX-200 MFD.
Any suggested avionic vendors for homebuilt vs. certified to check for pricing?
TIA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Switches |
Speaking from many years of race car experience, you'll find that vibration
is the main enemy of this style of switch. The more robust the switch the
longer its life. I've had "cheap" switches last less than one race weekend,
Hella's are good for a couple of seasons or more and the $$high$$ end
switches last several seasons. Failure is almost always caused by vibration
tearing them apart.
Bob McC
>From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery Switches
>Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 11:08:53 -0400
>
>
>
>NEMuzzy wrote:
>>
>>
>>The cheap Harbor Freight type battery disconnects are really cheap, and
>>not
>>near the quality of the Hella disconnect switch. If the key is flexible
>>plastic, it is the really cheap version. The better ones are a rigid
>>plastic.
>>
>>Side note: We used to build battlebots. When we hit the robots with the
>>cheap switches, the back end would pop out, and the battery was
>>disconnected.
>Are you planning to enter your homebuilt airplane in a battlebot contest?
>
>I'm sure the Hella switch is an excellent feat of engineering, but will it
>make a difference for a properly installed, well supported battery cable in
>a well protected area?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dale Fultz" <dfultz7(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: suggested vendor? |
Avionics Unlimited in Conroe Texas treated me great and great prices too..
Very helpful tech support also.. Johnny was great helping me out... Dale
N269DF getting closer
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Quillin" <rjquillin(at)gmail.com>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michel Creek" <mwcreek(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | SoS Vibrator Recomendation |
Are there any recommendations for purchase of a starting vibrator for Bendix
200 series mags? AC Spruce lists one for $258, but I'm wondering if there
are other options.
Thanks,
Mike Creek
Bearhawk
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ralph Hoover <hooverra(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | suggested vendor? |
Good folks,good service good prices. What's not to like:) I don't know about the
MFD but some of their pricing is available via automated E-Mail response.
John Stark
Stark Avionics
5290 East Armour Rd.
Columbus Metro Airport
Columbus, GA 31909
Phn: 706-321-1008
Fax: 706-324-3770
--
Ralph C. Hoover
RV7A
hooverra at verizon dot net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Miles" <terrence_miles(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | suggested vendor? |
John Stark is a good man. I bought from him and he helped after the sale
with some changes that I wanted to make. Stark Avionics.
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Quillin
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 11:16 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: suggested vendor?
I see Garmin has what may be a pretty good rebate program for the GMX-200
MFD.
Any suggested avionic vendors for homebuilt vs. certified to check for
pricing?
TIA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OT- email for Brian Lloyd |
>
>Does anyone happen to have a current email address for Brian Lloyd?
>My message keeps coming back as undeliverable.
The last address I have for Brian is
brian-yak(at)lloyd.com
His last post to the List was September 2006.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OT- email for Brian Lloyd |
>
>Thanks, Bob.
>I used the same address (and brianl(at)lloyd.com, and brian-av(at)lloyd.com) -
>all came back as "user unknown". Hm....
I had not noticed how long it has been since
we heard from Brian. Let us hope that this
apparent transition was not the result of unhappy
circumstances.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Alterations to Z-12 |
| From: | "tx_jayhawk" <tx_jayhawk(at)excite.com> |
I have essentially a Z-12 type setup with primary alternator, 20 A B&C standby
alt, and PC 680 battery.
Question is this...why would you not have the standby alternator powering the essential
bus directly as opposed to the main bus? I know the "juice"gets there
eventually, but it seems like a couple of extra hops that you may not want.
If you lose the main alt and can't power everything on the main anyway, why not
route the standby alt power direct to where you want it (essential bus)? Alternatively,
I suppose you could have some sort of switch/relay to change from
main to essential (from the standby).
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Scott
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121091#121091
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | SoS Vibrator Recomendation |
6/28/2007
Hello Mike, I suggest that joining the 21st century with a solid state
electronic starting vibrator --Unison SlickSTART SS1002 -- is the way to go.
http://www.unisonindustries.com/ourproducts/slickmagnetosandharnesses.html
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
From: "Michel Creek" <mwcreek(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: SoS Vibrator Recomendation
Are there any recommendations for purchase of a starting vibrator for Bendix
200 series mags? AC Spruce lists one for $258, but I'm wondering if there
are other options.
Thanks,
Mike Creek
Bearhawk
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alterations to Z-12 |
>
>I have essentially a Z-12 type setup with primary alternator, 20 A B&C
>standby alt, and PC 680 battery.
>
>Question is this...why would you not have the standby alternator powering
>the essential bus directly as opposed to the main bus? I know the
>"juice"gets there eventually, but it seems like a couple of extra hops
>that you may not want. If you lose the main alt and can't power
>everything on the main anyway, why not route the standby alt power direct
>to where you want it (essential bus)? Alternatively, I suppose you could
>have some sort of switch/relay to change from main to essential (from the
>standby).
>
>Any thoughts?
>
>Thanks,
>Scott
Check the notes for Figure Z-12 in both the text of Appendix
Z and the chapter on system reliability. Z-12 is NOT INTENDED
for NEW DESIGN. It's an example of how the SD-20 can be ADDED
to an existing "spam can like" architecture.
If you're airplane is already flying with an an a-la C-172 system
installed and you're wanting to convert to an all electric
configuration with a minimum of chop-and-hack to the existing
system, then Z-12 should be considered. This is what's happening
to hundreds of TC aircraft that are receiving the benefits
of a vacuum pump driven, second alternator.
What makes you think you NEED 20A worth of backup power?
In what ways does Z-13/8 fall short of facilitating a comfortable
termination of flight should you happen (unlikely) to loose the
main alternator? Under what anticipated flight conditions would
you find that 8+ amps of continuous engine driven power + battery
reserves would not fill the bill for getting on the ground
comfortably? Before you jump to an answer, let us suppose that
there were NO practical solutions for a vacuum pump driven alternator.
If that component were not in our bag of tricks, how would it
alter the way you plan to use your airplane? The point of the
thought problem is to deduce whether 20A vs. 8A of backup
really drives safety issues . . . or is it just a cool, $1000,
8 pound solution to a problem that doesn't need to be solved
when $400 worth of hardware weighing 4 pounds will do just fine.
I'd judge that a VERY small fraction of the OBAM aircraft
community can really justify so large a second alternator.
Let's start with Z-13/8 and then figure out the lowest cost
of ownership, minimum parts count approach to meeting your
mission goals.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Physics is like sex: sure, it may )
( give some practical results, but )
( that's not why we do it." )
( )
( Richard P. Feynman )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Saylor" <Dave(at)AirCraftersLLC.com> |
| Subject: | SoS Vibrator Recomendation |
SlickStart works great. But, any suggestions for suppliers? Unison says
there are redesigning the 1001, discontiuing the 1002. The only source I
know of has a single 1002 in stock for $500. Sources say at least a year
before any more are available. ACS and Vans are hopelessly backordered with
no help in sight. Anyone know differently?
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
bakerocb(at)cox.net
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 12:22 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: SoS Vibrator Recomendation
6/28/2007
Hello Mike, I suggest that joining the 21st century with a solid state
electronic starting vibrator --Unison SlickSTART SS1002 -- is the way to go.
http://www.unisonindustries.com/ourproducts/slickmagnetosandharnesses.html
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
From: "Michel Creek" <mwcreek(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: SoS Vibrator Recomendation
Are there any recommendations for purchase of a starting vibrator for Bendix
200 series mags? AC Spruce lists one for $258, but I'm wondering if there
are other options.
Thanks,
Mike Creek
Bearhawk
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SoS Vibrator Recomendation |
>
>
>Are there any recommendations for purchase of a starting vibrator for Bendix
>200 series mags? AC Spruce lists one for $258, but I'm wondering if there
>are other options.
Mike, do you have an old non-working vibrator? I've always
wanted to get my hands on one of these for dissection.
It would be an interesting task to craft an experimental
clone of the electro-mechanical vibrator . . . or even
the solid state replacement. It would be helpful to do
some analysis of the energies and delivery philosophies.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michel Creek" <mwcreek(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | SoS Vibrator Recomendation |
Hi Bob,
I don't have one at this time as mine is a new (to this airplane)
installation. There is a 24 volt version for sale on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/bendix-starting-vibrator-pn-10-357487-242d_W0
QQitemZ300124485320QQihZ020QQcategoryZ26442QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZView
Item
with a starting bid of $24.95 and that is the least expensive one I could
find. If I run across a dead or really cheap one I'll pick it up and send
it to you.
Thanks to all who replied to the initial post. A group member contacted me
directly and I was able to buy a SlickStart that he wasn't using.
Regards,
Mike Creek
Bearhawk QB
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SoS Vibrator Recomendation
>
>
>Are there any recommendations for purchase of a starting vibrator for
Bendix
>200 series mags? AC Spruce lists one for $258, but I'm wondering if there
>are other options.
Mike, do you have an old non-working vibrator? I've always
wanted to get my hands on one of these for dissection.
It would be an interesting task to craft an experimental
clone of the electro-mechanical vibrator . . . or even
the solid state replacement. It would be helpful to do
some analysis of the energies and delivery philosophies.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mitchgarner757(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Small Tractor Dynamo |
Hi Bob,
Do you know if the John Deere/Kubota type dynamos require a certain
direction of rotation...or will they work spinning in either direction?
Thanks a bunch!
Mitch Garner
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tony Kirk" <tbirdrv(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Automatic Headlight Hi/Lo Fallover Circuit |
I'm wondering if there is a device I can install on my landing lights that
will sense when the high beam filament has failed and automagically switch
the current to the low beam filament.
I'm using the single source/single switch wig-wag system, as per
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Lighting/WigWag.pdf pg 3.0 and have only one
wire to each light.
My landing lights are a Bob Olds design and utilize dual filament automotive
H4 halogen bulbs, one per side. I would like to have something (preferably
home brewed - read low $$$) at each headlamp that will fall over to the low
beam so I can double bulb life, reduce maintenance and save a little money.
Thanks,
Tony Kirk
RV-6A N57TK
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Small Tractor Dynamo |
>Hi Bob,
>
>Do you know if the John Deere/Kubota type dynamos require a certain
>direction of rotation...or will they work spinning in either direction?
They are PM devices with no fans or brushes. They run
equally well in either direction.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: SoS Vibrator Recomendation |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
> It would be an interesting task to craft an experimental
> clone of the electro-mechanical vibrator . . . or even
> the solid state replacement. It would be helpful to do
> some analysis of the energies and delivery philosophies.
>
> Bob . . .
Take a look at US Patent 5630384 for details of the Slick design....
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121195#121195
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Battery installation techniques |
List reader Michael O'Brien has provided some photos of
his dual battery installation in the tail of an RV-7.
I've posted them at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery/Battery_Install_O'Brien_1.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery/Battery_Install_O'Brien_2.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery/Battery_Install_O'Brien_3.jpg
Looks like he's covered all the bases quite well.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Physics is like sex: sure, it may )
( give some practical results, but )
( that's not why we do it." )
( )
( Richard P. Feynman )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SoS Vibrator Recommendation |
>
>
> > It would be an interesting task to craft an experimental
> > clone of the electro-mechanical vibrator . . . or even
> > the solid state replacement. It would be helpful to do
> > some analysis of the energies and delivery philosophies.
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>
>Take a look at US Patent 5630384 for details of the Slick design....
Thank you! I'd poked around in those archives some years ago.
It's amazing how many TINY variations on a theme were awarded
the "protection" of a patent. There's as many ways to electrically
light a fire as there are types of transistors.
I'll poke around in the "pile" again pretty soon.
My retirement "party" is today at 1:00 in my soon-to-
be-former-office at Beech/RAC/Hawker-Beechcraft. This
is not going to be the event that most attendees of
such gatherings have come to expect.
The parting words of most folks deal with plans to spin-down
professionally and go fish, garden, putter in the shop,
spoil the grandkids, etc.
I'm going to tell my colleagues that I'm leaving because
it isn't fun any more. My consulting clients have more
fun tasks to do than I care to take on. I'm going to suggest
that folks at HB use me as a personal resource for any
manner of support that I have the time and willingness
to offer.
I'll continue to offer the lunchtime learning sessions
and Saturday morning classes at NIAR. I'll suggest
that folks can call me any time if there's something
they think I might be able to support. THIS retirement
isn't about slowing down. It's first about restoring
enthusiasm for my profession and second, an attempt
to plant the seeds of curiosity, energy and joy for
finding things out in folks I work with.
This isn't the end of an old activity but the beginnings
of a new way to expand on the best I know how to do.
I'm going to suggest that interested individuals join
us here on the List.
Had a meeting with one of my new principals last
evening. Seems we do our best thinking over a plate
of tacos and plenty of beer down at Connie's el-Mexico
cafe. Walked out of that restaurant with a host of
new things to do!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com> |
| Subject: | Re: SoS Vibrator Recommendation |
Congratulations Bob and thanks for your help. Surely you will enjoy the
retirement and become busier than ever before.
Cheers
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Saturday, 30 June 2007 3:24 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: SoS Vibrator Recommendation
>
>
> > It would be an interesting task to craft an experimental
> > clone of the electro-mechanical vibrator . . . or even
> > the solid state replacement. It would be helpful to do
> > some analysis of the energies and delivery philosophies.
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>
>Take a look at US Patent 5630384 for details of the Slick design....
Thank you! I'd poked around in those archives some years ago.
It's amazing how many TINY variations on a theme were awarded
the "protection" of a patent. There's as many ways to electrically
light a fire as there are types of transistors.
I'll poke around in the "pile" again pretty soon.
My retirement "party" is today at 1:00 in my soon-to-
be-former-office at Beech/RAC/Hawker-Beechcraft. This
is not going to be the event that most attendees of
such gatherings have come to expect.
The parting words of most folks deal with plans to spin-down
professionally and go fish, garden, putter in the shop,
spoil the grandkids, etc.
I'm going to tell my colleagues that I'm leaving because
it isn't fun any more. My consulting clients have more
fun tasks to do than I care to take on. I'm going to suggest
that folks at HB use me as a personal resource for any
manner of support that I have the time and willingness
to offer.
I'll continue to offer the lunchtime learning sessions
and Saturday morning classes at NIAR. I'll suggest
that folks can call me any time if there's something
they think I might be able to support. THIS retirement
isn't about slowing down. It's first about restoring
enthusiasm for my profession and second, an attempt
to plant the seeds of curiosity, energy and joy for
finding things out in folks I work with.
This isn't the end of an old activity but the beginnings
of a new way to expand on the best I know how to do.
I'm going to suggest that interested individuals join
us here on the List.
Had a meeting with one of my new principals last
evening. Seems we do our best thinking over a plate
of tacos and plenty of beer down at Connie's el-Mexico
cafe. Walked out of that restaurant with a host of
new things to do!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery installation techniques (fixed links) |
It seems some email clients couldn't handle the appostrophy in
the file names. I've edited them out.
List reader Michael O'Brien has provided some photos of
his dual battery installation in the tail of an RV-7.
I've posted them at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery/Battery_Install_OBrien_1.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery/Battery_Install_OBrien_2.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery/Battery_Install_OBrien_3.jpg
Looks like he's covered all the bases quite well.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Miles" <terrence_miles(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Final update on Optima Battery with cut top posts |
Lesson Learned.
I had a Yellow top Optima. I cut the top posts to fit my battery
compartment and shortly after that the battery lost power and would not
accept a charge.
I got the battery back into operation. It seems the inner plug of the top
posts connect to the cells. The outer ring of the top posts connect only to
the side posts which were my connect points to distribution.
By drilling and tapping a quarter/32 screw into those flush cut inner plugs,
I regained access to the cells. The battery is now taking a charge just
fine. Cutting the top posts also improperly vents the interior, so that was
sealed up with some epoxy. It has a new home as drive source to a trolling
motor, and a pair of Odyssey 925s is going in the airplane.
Terry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
Bob,
I see you've found what I discovered nearly twenty years ago: "You
don't retire FROM a job, you retire TO something better." Your advice and
opinions have added so much to my understanding over the years that I cannot
think how I might have progressed without them.
Cheers, Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Final update on Optima Battery with cut top posts |
>
>
>Lesson Learned.
>I had a Yellow top Optima. I cut the top posts to fit my battery
>compartment and shortly after that the battery lost power and would not
>accept a charge.
>
>I got the battery back into operation. It seems the inner plug of the top
>posts connect to the cells. The outer ring of the top posts connect only to
>the side posts which were my connect points to distribution.
>
>By drilling and tapping a quarter/32 screw into those flush cut inner plugs,
>I regained access to the cells. The battery is now taking a charge just
>fine. Cutting the top posts also improperly vents the interior, so that was
>sealed up with some epoxy. It has a new home as drive source to a trolling
>motor, and a pair of Odyssey 925s is going in the airplane.
>Terry
Good data sir. Thanks for sharing. I'll take this opportunity
to reinforce the notion that there is as much value in
sharing ideas that do not work as there is for sharing
the ones that do work. If you can help another builder avoid
repeating an experiment with a predictably poor outcome, the
$time$ you expended "getting behind" will push him ahead by
the same amount of $time$. If more than one builder benefits
from the information, then the service you've provided becomes
still more valuable.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | multi detent 10k potentiometer? |
| From: | "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston(at)popsound.com> |
Ok smart guys...get ready for a dumb guy question!
What do you call a regular old 10k pot that has multiple detents on it?
I'm trying to find a single turn 10k pot that has a click feel, maybe 20
detents or so, to use with a PWM dimming system for an lcd inverter.
But I have no idea what to call it! so I can't look for it! I tried
and tried, but all I find is pots with center detents, or pots with a
switch at the end, but that's the only detent. I'm very frustrated, and
feeling very stupid. Can someone smarter than me help me out?
Btw, I do know what it's called when you cross a hippopotamus, an
elephant and a rhino. Hellifiknow!
Sorry. and thanks.
cj
#40410
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: multi detent 10k potentiometer? |
>
>
>Ok smart guys...get ready for a dumb guy question!
>
>What do you call a regular old 10k pot that has multiple detents on it?
>I'm trying to find a single turn 10k pot that has a click feel, maybe 20
>detents or so, to use with a PWM dimming system for an lcd inverter.
>But I have no idea what to call it! so I can't look for it! I tried
>and tried, but all I find is pots with center detents, or pots with a
>switch at the end, but that's the only detent. I'm very frustrated, and
>feeling very stupid. Can someone smarter than me help me out?
>
>Btw, I do know what it's called when you cross a hippopotamus, an
>elephant and a rhino. Hellifiknow!
>
>Sorry. and thanks.
I've never seen one as a catalog item. I've built
them by putting a little spring cartridge behind
the skirt of a knob and cutting the detent furrows
in the back of the knob. This is going to be kinda
'big'. With a 1/2" diameter pot, you still need about
a 1-1/4" diameter knob to build the mechanism behind
it.
All the other clicky-feel pots I've seen were
fabricated by the manufacturer of the appliance.
Others on the List may be aware of some options.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Soldering to copper foil tape |
Was there an article on a recommended way to do this?
I vaguely remember a discussion on this topic.
I'd rather do it right than again!
Thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: multi detent 10k potentiometer? |
| From: | Ron Quillin <rjquillin(at)gmail.com> |
At 14:51 6/30/2007, you wrote:
>What do you call a regular old 10k pot that has multiple detents on it?
>I'm trying to find a single turn 10k pot that has a click feel, maybe 20
>detents or so, to use with a PWM dimming system for an lcd inverter.
>But I have no idea what to call it! so I can't look for it! I tried
>and tried, but all I find is pots with center detents, or pots with a
>switch at the end, but that's the only detent. I'm very frustrated, and
>feeling very stupid. Can someone smarter than me help me out?
It's still just a pot. But linear or log taper?
Pretty common to find them in "hi-fi" and stereo equipment as balance
and tone controls in the linear version. The log version will be
found as volume controls. Alps made a ton of them for various
OEM's. Generally the back plate, opposite the shaft, will have
multiple 'bumps' on it. The detent being on the inside with a small
spring leaf riding directly or applying pressure to a 'ball bearing'.
The whole thing has goo to make it feel good and smooth.
Sources... Humm...
First thing that comes to mind is swap meets, thrift stores and
garage sales. Find an old bone yard stereo with detented pot for $10
or so and hope one's a 10k. I would think you would have some
latitude on value, but check with the dimmer supplier or designer to
make sure a different value is acceptable. Surplus electronic stores
may also be a good haunt. Gateway Electronics I think has an online
store worth browsing. I'll dig in my parts bucket at home for you as well.
Ron Q.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Miles" <terrence_miles(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Final update on Optima Battery with cut top posts |
Bob, Ya know what...this may be is a small pay back for the enormous benefit
you personally and this forum has been to me.
Regards,
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Final update on Optima Battery with cut top
posts
>
>
>Lesson Learned.
>I had a Yellow top Optima. I cut the top posts to fit my battery
>compartment and shortly after that the battery lost power and would not
>accept a charge.
>
>I got the battery back into operation. It seems the inner plug of the top
>posts connect to the cells. The outer ring of the top posts connect only
to
>the side posts which were my connect points to distribution.
>
>By drilling and tapping a quarter/32 screw into those flush cut inner
plugs,
>I regained access to the cells. The battery is now taking a charge just
>fine. Cutting the top posts also improperly vents the interior, so that
was
>sealed up with some epoxy. It has a new home as drive source to a trolling
>motor, and a pair of Odyssey 925s is going in the airplane.
>Terry
Good data sir. Thanks for sharing. I'll take this opportunity
to reinforce the notion that there is as much value in
sharing ideas that do not work as there is for sharing
the ones that do work. If you can help another builder avoid
repeating an experiment with a predictably poor outcome, the
$time$ you expended "getting behind" will push him ahead by
the same amount of $time$. If more than one builder benefits
from the information, then the service you've provided becomes
still more valuable.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ralph Hoover <hooverra(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | multi detent 10k potentiometer? |
Chris,
Bourns makes them, They are probably special order, this is first
one I found there may be other series as well. You may be able to get a
sample if you only need one. No harm asking. They have multiple detent
configurations, center, 20, 30, end, and none.
I went to Mouser and typed "detent pot" into their part search and
came up with a P/N and a link to the cutsheet.
Good luck.
--
Ralph C. Hoover
RV7A
hooverra at verizon dot net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sarg314 <sarg314(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | power wires to strobe power supply |
I was about to run a couple #16 wires to my Whelen HDACF strobe power
supply when I noticed that the installation instructions say that
"shielded wire is generally not necessary but has proven effective in
reducing the possibility of radio interference."
Sounds like their lawyers wrote it. The HV wires to the strobes are of
course shielded, but do the +12v and GND wires to the supply have to be
shielded too?
--
Tom S.
RV-6A, electrical system
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Gill" <wgill10(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | power wires to strobe power supply |
Tom,
I did just as you have suggested and have no problems not using shielded
wires TO the strobe power supply.
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
sarg314
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 11:16 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: power wires to strobe power supply
I was about to run a couple #16 wires to my Whelen HDACF strobe power
supply when I noticed that the installation instructions say that
"shielded wire is generally not necessary but has proven effective in
reducing the possibility of radio interference."
Sounds like their lawyers wrote it. The HV wires to the strobes are of
course shielded, but do the +12v and GND wires to the supply have to be
shielded too?
--
Tom S.
RV-6A, electrical system
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Merlin" <phil.merlin(at)skynet.be> |
| Subject: | Strobe lights temperature |
Hello,
I have tested my Whelen strobe lights on the bench before installing
them,
and one of them (the tail one) is overheating (95=B0C !! after a couple
of
minutes), although working fine. But it smells like a hot electric
device. I
cannot get from Whelen whether it is normal or not...
I'd like to have the opinion of other users to compare with...
Thanks in advance,
Philippe
Brussels - Belgium
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | multi detent 10k potentiometer? |
7/1/2007
Hello cj, I recently drove a Chevrolet Malibu rental car that had a click
knob rheostat to control the fan speed on the air flow to the car interior.
The knob itself was probably too large for your use, but you might check
with the parts section of a local dealer to find out what the insides are.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
Subject: AeroElectric-List: multi detent 10k potentiometer?
From: "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston(at)popsound.com>
Ok smart guys...get ready for a dumb guy question!
What do you call a regular old 10k pot that has multiple detents on it?
I'm trying to find a single turn 10k pot that has a click feel, maybe 20
detents or so, to use with a PWM dimming system for an lcd inverter.
But I have no idea what to call it! so I can't look for it! I tried
and tried, but all I find is pots with center detents, or pots with a
switch at the end, but that's the only detent. I'm very frustrated, and
feeling very stupid. Can someone smarter than me help me out?
Btw, I do know what it's called when you cross a hippopotamus, an
elephant and a rhino. Hellifiknow!
Sorry. and thanks.
cj
#40410
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charles Brame <chasb(at)satx.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Antenna Ground Plane |
Should the antenna shield be connected to the ground plane or
isolated from it?
Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB
San Antonio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Feldtman" <bobf(at)feldtman.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Antenna Ground Plane |
connected to it - I suggest the antenna handbook from ARRL as a reference.
bobf
Glastar
Amateur W5RF
On 7/1/07, Charles Brame wrote:
>
>
> Should the antenna shield be connected to the ground plane or
> isolated from it?
>
> Charlie Brame
> RV-6A N11CB
> San Antonio
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Automatic upper cowl flap |
Since I'm using a Subaru engine, I need to have some kind of ventilation
exit on the upper cowling, to dissipate heat after engine shutdown. Most
builders just make a row of 3/4" holes, and others put side louvers that
look like shark guills.
I intend to make the upper row of holes, but don't want to let them always
open, due to the possibility of rain penetration and also because they can
have a bad influence in the cooling air flow inside the cowling.
Therefore I thought of a small (some 15" x 1 1/2") moving flap, which covers
the holes, and is normally closed in flight.
Now the electrical challenge, that I put here to the smart guys of this
list:
The ideal solution to manouver this flap would be to automatically open it
when the engine is turned off. How can it be done?
Carlos
RV-9A
P.S. - I know this is not a KIS solution...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Automatic upper cowl flap |
Since I'm using a Subaru engine, I need to have some kind of ventilation
exit on the upper cowling, to dissipate heat after engine shutdown. Most
builders just make a row of 3/4" holes, and others put side louvers that
look like shark guilds.
I intend to make the upper row of holes, but don't want to let them always
open, due to the possibility of rain penetration and also because they can
have a bad influence in the cooling air flow inside the cowling.
Therefore I thought of a small (some 15" x 1 1/2") moving flap, which covers
the holes, and is normally closed in flight.
Now the electrical challenge, that I put here to the smart guys of this
list:
The ideal solution to maneuver this flap would be to automatically open it
when the engine is turned off, which in this engine's case is to turn Off an
electrical switch.
How can it be done?
Carlos
RV-9A
P.S. - I know this is not a KIS solution...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sarg314 <sarg314(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Antenna Ground Plane |
Looking at my Comant CI-122 antenna, it looks as though they intend the
mounting screws to contact the fuselage electrically. I can find no
instructions in this regard on the Comant website (if any one knows of
any, please tell me). The gasket thay give you pretty much rules out
contact of the antenna's base with the skin of the plane, at least in
any reliable way. The screws seem to it.
I've mounted platenuts on my doubler plate and I'll see that it has
contact with the (bare) fuselage skin underneath, but I'd like to see
some more positive connection.
Does any one have any Comant documents that addresses mounting details
like this?
--
Tom S. , RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Gill" <wgill10(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Antenna Ground Plane |
Tom,
The screws are the only paths necessary. Also, 'Lectric Bob advises
discarding the Comant cork gasket and use RTV sealant.
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
sarg314
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Antenna Ground Plane
Looking at my Comant CI-122 antenna, it looks as though they intend the
mounting screws to contact the fuselage electrically. I can find no
instructions in this regard on the Comant website (if any one knows of
any, please tell me). The gasket thay give you pretty much rules out
contact of the antenna's base with the skin of the plane, at least in
any reliable way. The screws seem to it.
I've mounted platenuts on my doubler plate and I'll see that it has
contact with the (bare) fuselage skin underneath, but I'd like to see
some more positive connection.
Does any one have any Comant documents that addresses mounting details
like this?
--
Tom S. , RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic upper cowl flap |
Hi Carlos,
I'd not recommend you add ventilation for a Subaru engine. The heat
from this water-cooled engine never approaches
temps seen in an air cooled engine. I read 210 degrees on a very hot
day and by the time I've taxied back to the hangar, the temps settle
back to 180 degrees F.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Carlos Trigo wrote:
>
>
> Since I'm using a Subaru engine, I need to have some kind of
> ventilation exit on the upper cowling, to dissipate heat after engine
> shutdown.
> Carlos
> RV-9A
>
> P.S. - I know this is not a KIS solution...
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic upper cowl flap |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Windhorn" <N1DeltaWhiskey(at)comcast.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Automatic upper cowl flap
>
> I use a Sube and my solution will be the oil fill hatch, at least in the
> near term.
>
> Doug
>
Doug
That was exactly my first thought.
How are you going to open and close the oil fill door from the cockpit?
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic upper cowl flap |
----- Original Message -----
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 9:13 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Automatic upper cowl flap
>
> Why not just open the oil dip-stick door.
>
> Bevan
> RV7A
Bevan
That was exactly my first idea when I approached this subject, and I could
go that way.
However, what I'm looking for in this list is an automatic system to open
it, connected to the electrical switch that shuts down the engine.
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic upper cowl flap |
Hi Larry
But that is still what the Eggenfellner factory recommends, especially when
you shut down the engine shortly after landing. They say every car has that
ventilation exit
Carlos
----- Original Message -----
From: "LarryMcFarland" <larry(at)macsmachine.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Automatic upper cowl flap
>
>
> Hi Carlos,
> I'd not recommend you add ventilation for a Subaru engine. The heat from
> this water-cooled engine never approaches
> temps seen in an air cooled engine. I read 210 degrees on a very hot day
> and by the time I've taxied back to the hangar, the temps settle back to
> 180 degrees F.
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic upper cowl flap |
Carlos,
It may be that a car needs this for idling around town at stoplights and
for lugging up a hill in the summer, but with a good cooling
system in the plane, Subaru temps drop off from 180 to ambient rather
quickly. The heat from an air cooled engine and its exhaust pipes would
be much higher, but I'd get a recorded temperature reading in the upper
rear cowl before putting any work into a vent.
Realizing Eggenfellner is a purest and has good product, exceeding the
requirements is what they do best. Hard to argue that. I'd
still put a temp sensor there for run up and get a reading on peak temps
after shut down. We'd really be interested in what you find.
Larry McFarland
Carlos Trigo wrote:
>
>
> Hi Larry
>
> But that is still what the Eggenfellner factory recommends, especially
> when you shut down the engine shortly after landing. They say every
> car has that ventilation exit
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Antenna Ground Plane |
I just finished the double and installation of my CI 122.
Per responses from Bob Kuckolls and a few others....I cleaned the primer
away from where the screws contact each other (providing continuity from the
antenna base through to the airframe) and ran a drill through all of the
rivet holes prior to riveting. I'm gonna pitch the cork gasket and use some
non-acidic RTV as a sealant.
I've had numerous requests for the photos of my installation - zap me
direct....
Ralph Capen
----- Original Message -----
From: "sarg314" <sarg314(at)comcast.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Antenna Ground Plane
>
> Looking at my Comant CI-122 antenna, it looks as though they intend the
> mounting screws to contact the fuselage electrically. I can find no
> instructions in this regard on the Comant website (if any one knows of
> any, please tell me). The gasket thay give you pretty much rules out
> contact of the antenna's base with the skin of the plane, at least in any
> reliable way. The screws seem to it.
>
> I've mounted platenuts on my doubler plate and I'll see that it has
> contact with the (bare) fuselage skin underneath, but I'd like to see some
> more positive connection.
>
> Does any one have any Comant documents that addresses mounting details
> like this?
>
> --
> Tom S. , RV-6A
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic upper cowl flap |
Carlos Trigo wrote:
>
>
> Since I'm using a Subaru engine, I need to have some kind of ventilation
> exit on the upper cowling, to dissipate heat after engine shutdown. Most
> builders just make a row of 3/4" holes, and others put side louvers that
> look like shark guills.
> I intend to make the upper row of holes, but don't want to let them
> always open, due to the possibility of rain penetration and also because
> they can have a bad influence in the cooling air flow inside the cowling.
> Therefore I thought of a small (some 15" x 1 1/2") moving flap, which
> covers the holes, and is normally closed in flight.
>
> Now the electrical challenge, that I put here to the smart guys of this
> list:
> The ideal solution to manouver this flap would be to automatically open
> it when the engine is turned off. How can it be done?
>
> Carlos
> RV-9A
>
> P.S. - I know this is not a KIS solution...
>
I didn't see what airframe the Sube is powering, but if the cowl is
typical you can just add holes in a flat area & add a hinged door under
them. If you limit the door's travel to less than 90 degrees, air
pressure during flight will push it closed. When you shut down, it will
drop open. It's been done by others to achieve what you're after. (KIS?)
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Coloccia <john(at)ballofshame.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic upper cowl flap |
EXACTLY my thoughts on the matter.
-John
www.ballofshame.com
Charlie England wrote:
>
>
> Carlos Trigo wrote:
>>
>>
>> Since I'm using a Subaru engine, I need to have some kind of
>> ventilation exit on the upper cowling, to dissipate heat after engine
>> shutdown. Most builders just make a row of 3/4" holes, and others put
>> side louvers that look like shark guills.
>> I intend to make the upper row of holes, but don't want to let them
>> always open, due to the possibility of rain penetration and also
>> because they can have a bad influence in the cooling air flow inside
>> the cowling.
>> Therefore I thought of a small (some 15" x 1 1/2") moving flap, which
>> covers the holes, and is normally closed in flight.
>>
>> Now the electrical challenge, that I put here to the smart guys of
>> this list:
>> The ideal solution to manouver this flap would be to automatically
>> open it when the engine is turned off. How can it be done?
>>
>> Carlos
>> RV-9A
>>
>> P.S. - I know this is not a KIS solution...
>>
> I didn't see what airframe the Sube is powering, but if the cowl is
> typical you can just add holes in a flat area & add a hinged door
> under them. If you limit the door's travel to less than 90 degrees,
> air pressure during flight will push it closed. When you shut down, it
> will drop open. It's been done by others to achieve what you're after.
> (KIS?)
>
> Charlie
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Windhorn" <N1DeltaWhiskey(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic upper cowl flap |
Carlos,
Not sure why one would be concerned about doing that from the cockpit. If I
wanted something to open right away when the engine was shut down, and
before I could exit the cockpit, a gravity flap would be my preference - it
should close once the cowling is pressurized (but that begs the question of
why it would be pressurized - doesn't that mean there is more airflow into
the cowling than wants to escape, i.e., drag?). If that didn't work, I
would next consider a simple push-pull mechanical lever that would push the
flap closed when pushed full forward, back to open. Last option would be an
electrical one.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Sent: Sunday, 01 July, 2007 15:58
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Automatic upper cowl flap
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Doug Windhorn" <N1DeltaWhiskey(at)comcast.net>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 9:00 PM
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Automatic upper cowl flap
>
>
>>
>> I use a Sube and my solution will be the oil fill hatch, at least in the
>> near term.
>>
>> Doug
>>
>
> Doug
>
> That was exactly my first thought. How are you going to open and close the
> oil fill door from the cockpit?
>
> Carlos
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Windhorn" <N1DeltaWhiskey(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic upper cowl flap |
Larry,
Would generally agree with you, but in my case, there is a header tank in
the engine compartment and getting the heat out helps to keep from heat
soaking the fuel which could cause vapor lock problems. Eggenfelner's
reasoning may be similar even if there is no such tank. Carlos did not
mention that he had one, so assume it would be to limit heating of the fuel
in the fuel lines.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "LarryMcFarland" <larry(at)macsmachine.com>
Sent: Sunday, 01 July, 2007 14:24
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Automatic upper cowl flap
>
>
> Hi Carlos,
> I'd not recommend you add ventilation for a Subaru engine. The heat from
> this water-cooled engine never approaches
> temps seen in an air cooled engine. I read 210 degrees on a very hot day
> and by the time I've taxied back to the hangar, the temps settle back to
> 180 degrees F.
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
> Carlos Trigo wrote:
>>
>>
>> Since I'm using a Subaru engine, I need to have some kind of ventilation
>> exit on the upper cowling, to dissipate heat after engine shutdown.
>> Carlos
>> RV-9A
>>
>> P.S. - I know this is not a KIS solution...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic upper cowl flap |
Thanks Charlie
It's really a smart idea, with only one inconvenient. It will not prevent
rain water entrance when the aircraft is parked outside.
I'll put it in my solutions list. If it doesn't work properly, I still need
the electrical automation ...
Carlos
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie England" <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 2:20 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Automatic upper cowl flap
>
>
> Carlos Trigo wrote:
>>
>>
>> Since I'm using a Subaru engine, I need to have some kind of ventilation
>> exit on the upper cowling, to dissipate heat after engine shutdown. Most
>> builders just make a row of 3/4" holes, and others put side louvers that
>> look like shark guills.
>> I intend to make the upper row of holes, but don't want to let them
>> always open, due to the possibility of rain penetration and also because
>> they can have a bad influence in the cooling air flow inside the cowling.
>> Therefore I thought of a small (some 15" x 1 1/2") moving flap, which
>> covers the holes, and is normally closed in flight.
>>
>> Now the electrical challenge, that I put here to the smart guys of this
>> list:
>> The ideal solution to manouver this flap would be to automatically open
>> it when the engine is turned off. How can it be done?
>>
>> Carlos
>> RV-9A
>>
>> P.S. - I know this is not a KIS solution...
>>
> I didn't see what airframe the Sube is powering, but if the cowl is
> typical you can just add holes in a flat area & add a hinged door under
> them. If you limit the door's travel to less than 90 degrees, air pressure
> during flight will push it closed. When you shut down, it will drop open.
> It's been done by others to achieve what you're after. (KIS?)
>
> Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Automatic upper cowl flap |
Hello Carlos
I use a reverse scoop (facing rearwards) just over an inch high and
maybe 6" wide about 6" ahead of the windshield. What is interesting is
that on the ground air exits the scoop however since that is a fairly
high pressure area, air enters the scoop in flight. Even more air would
enter if one had a radiator in the cowl ahead of the scoop as the
pressure inside the cowl would be lower than my installation.
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic upper cowl flap |
Carlos Trigo wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Charlie
>
> It's really a smart idea, with only one inconvenient. It will not
> prevent rain water entrance when the aircraft is parked outside.
> I'll put it in my solutions list. If it doesn't work properly, I still
> need the electrical automation ...
>
> Carlos
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie England"
>
>> I didn't see what airframe the Sube is powering, but if the cowl is
>> typical you can just add holes in a flat area & add a hinged door
>> under them. If you limit the door's travel to less than 90 degrees,
>> air pressure during flight will push it closed. When you shut down,
>> it will drop open. It's been done by others to achieve what you're
>> after. (KIS?)
>>
>> Charlie
Get you a temperature bellows off of a VW engine. Sorry I don't know
the proper name. It expands when it gets hot, which it shouldn't do
while you're flying due to the airflow. But it will during post-flight
taxi if you rig it so that the expansion opens the hinged door that
Charlie suggests. Once the engine cools, it will contract to close the
door again.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Automatic Headlight Hi/Lo Fallover Circuit |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
> I'm wondering if there is a device I can install on my landing lights that will
sense when the high beam filament has failed and automagically switch the current
to the low beam filament.
>
> I'm using the single source/single switch wig-wag system, as per http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Lighting/WigWag.pdf pg 3.0 and have only one wire to each light.
>
> My landing lights are a Bob Olds design and utilize dual filament automotive
H4 halogen bulbs, one per side. I would like to have something (preferably home
brewed - read low $$$) at each headlamp that will fall over to the low beam
so I can double bulb life, reduce maintenance and save a little money. Thanks,
Tony Kirk RV-6A N57TK
Tony, It's not a hard circuit to design nor is it expensive. I have a "back-of-the-envelope"
design for one that I will share if you like, but it needs a bit
of work and testing. It will even light a panel LED when the hi beam has failed.
But In my opinion, you really don't want to do this. By adding one simple wire
to the lamp you can have access to both filaments. This is much simpler than building
an automatic switch and more versatile too.
Additionally, before you could make one of these, you will be able to buy LED
landing lights that will work forever.
"Everything you've learned in school as "obvious" becomes
less and less obvious as you begin to study the universe.
For example, there are no solids in the universe. There's
not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute con-
tinuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines."
- R. Buckminster Fuller
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121752#121752
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Taylor" <flydad57(at)neo.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic upper cowl flap |
You might try using the bi-metal coil from a thermometer.
Bob Taylor
Wadsworth, Ohio
N657RT, Res.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernest Christley" <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Automatic upper cowl flap
>
>
> Carlos Trigo wrote:
>>
>>
>> Thanks Charlie
>>
>> It's really a smart idea, with only one inconvenient. It will not prevent
>> rain water entrance when the aircraft is parked outside.
>> I'll put it in my solutions list. If it doesn't work properly, I still
>> need the electrical automation ...
>>
>> Carlos
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie England"
>>
>>> I didn't see what airframe the Sube is powering, but if the cowl is
>>> typical you can just add holes in a flat area & add a hinged door under
>>> them. If you limit the door's travel to less than 90 degrees, air
>>> pressure during flight will push it closed. When you shut down, it will
>>> drop open. It's been done by others to achieve what you're after. (KIS?)
>>>
>>> Charlie
>
> Get you a temperature bellows off of a VW engine. Sorry I don't know the
> proper name. It expands when it gets hot, which it shouldn't do while
> you're flying due to the airflow. But it will during post-flight taxi if
> you rig it so that the expansion opens the hinged door that Charlie
> suggests. Once the engine cools, it will contract to close the door
> again.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael T. Ice" <aurbo(at)ak.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic Headlight Hi/Lo Fallover Circuit |
Eric,
Sorry don't mean to hijack this thread but..
Where can I get those LED landing lights? I think that they would be great.
Can you wig wag the LED's.
Thanks,
Mike Ice
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 5:59 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Automatic Headlight Hi/Lo Fallover Circuit
>
>
>
>> I'm wondering if there is a device I can install on my landing lights
>> that will sense when the high beam filament has failed and automagically
>> switch the current to the low beam filament.
>>
>> I'm using the single source/single switch wig-wag system, as per
>> http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Lighting/WigWag.pdf pg 3.0 and have only
>> one wire to each light.
>>
>> My landing lights are a Bob Olds design and utilize dual filament
>> automotive H4 halogen bulbs, one per side. I would like to have something
>> (preferably home brewed - read low $$$) at each headlamp that will fall
>> over to the low beam so I can double bulb life, reduce maintenance and
>> save a little money. Thanks, Tony Kirk RV-6A N57TK
>
>
> Tony, It's not a hard circuit to design nor is it expensive. I have a
> "back-of-the-envelope" design for one that I will share if you like, but
> it needs a bit of work and testing. It will even light a panel LED when
> the hi beam has failed.
>
> But In my opinion, you really don't want to do this. By adding one simple
> wire to the lamp you can have access to both filaments. This is much
> simpler than building an automatic switch and more versatile too.
>
> Additionally, before you could make one of these, you will be able to buy
> LED landing lights that will work forever.
>
> "Everything you've learned in school as "obvious" becomes
> less and less obvious as you begin to study the universe.
> For example, there are no solids in the universe. There's
> not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute con-
> tinuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines."
>
> - R. Buckminster Fuller
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones(at)charter.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121752#121752
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "glen matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Automatic upper cowl flap |
Hi Carlos-
>The ideal solution to maneuver this flap would be to automatically open it
>when the engine is turned off, which in this engine's case is to turn Off
an
>electrical switch.
>How can it be done?
I once saw a Glasair III that had a clever solution to his vapor lock
problems. A series of oval holes were cut into the cowling / plenum top.
They were perhaps 1" long and 1/2" wide, lined up in a lateral row perhaps
1" by 1'. Underneath the top skin was a hinged flap that was pressed
against the skin by a bimetal spring. Once the engine was shut down and
the cowling temps rose to a high enough level, the bimetal spring opened
the vent. Once temps dropped, the vent would close itself. It was pretty
neat as it was autonomous and didn't require power.
glen matejcek
aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Automatic Headlight Hi/Lo Fallover Circuit |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
> Sorry don't mean to hijack this thread but..
> Where can I get those LED landing lights? I think that they would be great. Can
you wig wag the LED's. Thanks, Mike Ice
Mike et al.
LEDs wig-wag the best of all lamps.
I get an amazing email newsleter-- http://tinyurl.com/yuwjny
There are 35, 60 and 100W LEDs! Some in MR16 packages, some made for automobiles.
But there are several problems:
1) These are components aimed at manufacturers (tens-of-thousands of different
LED types!) and are often not "Plug and Play". But the really big LEDs do mount
up nicely.
2) You might have to buy quantity...but you can sell the rest on Ebay.
3) LEDs get better every week.
4) The really high power LEDs need higher voltages.
For reference: A couple years ago, one of my customers landed his RV aircraft at
night using only his (Perihelion Design) wigtip LED position lights. LEDs have
gotten a thousand times brighter since then.
Inventor: A person who makes an ingenious arrangement of wheels, levers and springs,
and believes it civilization.
--Ambrose Bierce
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121821#121821
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill and Marsha" <docyukon(at)ptcnet.net> |
| Subject: | ameri-king ak551 dimmer |
I have a ak551 dimmer module that I have misplaced the wiring diagram
for. I have been searching the web for a file but cant locate one. Can
anyone give me a link to a wiring diagram? Bill S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Automatic upper cowl flap |
Thanks Glenn
That is really a very clever solution.
And where do you think I can get that "miraculous" bimetal spring?
Are those "calibrated" for the temperature we want it to actuate?
Carlos
----- Original Message -----
From: "glen matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 6:09 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Automatic upper cowl flap
>
>
> Hi Carlos-
>
>>The ideal solution to maneuver this flap would be to automatically open it
>>when the engine is turned off, which in this engine's case is to turn Off
> an
>>electrical switch.
>>How can it be done?
>
> I once saw a Glasair III that had a clever solution to his vapor lock
> problems. A series of oval holes were cut into the cowling / plenum top.
> They were perhaps 1" long and 1/2" wide, lined up in a lateral row perhaps
> 1" by 1'. Underneath the top skin was a hinged flap that was pressed
> against the skin by a bimetal spring. Once the engine was shut down and
> the cowling temps rose to a high enough level, the bimetal spring opened
> the vent. Once temps dropped, the vent would close itself. It was pretty
> neat as it was autonomous and didn't require power.
>
> glen matejcek
> aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Automatic upper cowl flap |
This concept has been used in green houses for years. Yes, I suppose
ceiling windows are kind of like cowl flaps. Those motors are huge and
could not be used, but the concept is the same. Perhaps a green house
dealer would be a good source for the sensor/switch.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of glen
matejcek
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 1:09 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Automatic upper cowl flap
-->
Hi Carlos-
>The ideal solution to maneuver this flap would be to automatically open
>it when the engine is turned off, which in this engine's case is to
>turn Off
an
>electrical switch.
>How can it be done?
I once saw a Glasair III that had a clever solution to his vapor lock
problems. A series of oval holes were cut into the cowling / plenum
top.
They were perhaps 1" long and 1/2" wide, lined up in a lateral row
perhaps 1" by 1'. Underneath the top skin was a hinged flap that was
pressed against the skin by a bimetal spring. Once the engine was shut
down and the cowling temps rose to a high enough level, the bimetal
spring opened the vent. Once temps dropped, the vent would close
itself. It was pretty neat as it was autonomous and didn't require
power.
glen matejcek
aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "earl_schroeder(at)juno.com" <earl_schroeder(at)juno.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Automatic upper cowl flap |
Try any junk Volkswagen engine [the air cooled version]They all have a
bellows in the lower right side easily removed and adapted to your
purpose. Tony Bingelis wrote articles about this approach in EAA
magazines and in his own publications. Earl
---------
Carlos wrote:
where do you think I can get that "miraculous" bimetal spring?
Are those "calibrated" for the temperature we want it to actuate?
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Antenna Ground Plane |
>
>
>I just finished the double and installation of my CI 122.
>
>Per responses from Bob Kuckolls and a few others....I cleaned the primer
>away from where the screws contact each other (providing continuity from
>the antenna base through to the airframe) and ran a drill through all of
>the rivet holes prior to riveting. I'm gonna pitch the cork gasket and
>use some non-acidic RTV as a sealant.
>
>I've had numerous requests for the photos of my installation - zap me
>direct....
Ralph, If you'd care to share your photos on my server,
I'd be pleased to post them.
Bob. . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: power wires to strobe power supply |
>
>I was about to run a couple #16 wires to my Whelen HDACF strobe power
>supply when I noticed that the installation instructions say that
>"shielded wire is generally not necessary but has proven effective in
>reducing the possibility of radio interference."
>
>Sounds like their lawyers wrote it. The HV wires to the strobes are of
>course shielded, but do the +12v and GND wires to the supply have to be
>shielded too?
Shielding has a very limited effectiveness against
only the rarest of noise propagation modes. If the
device being powered up has passed DO-160 conducted
emissions, then there's no value in having the power
wires to that device be shielded. In fact, ANY device
that's shown to benefit from shielding of power leads
either as a potential antagonist or victim needs to
go back to the drawing boards . . . and probably
wouldn't pass DO-160 Conducted Emissions anyhow.
Don't worry about shielding these power leads.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Automatic upper cowl flap |
>> "Get you a temperature bellows off of a VW engine. Sorry I don't know
the proper name. It expands when it gets hot, which it shouldn't do while
you're flying due to the airflow. But it will during post-flight taxi if
you rig it so that the expansion opens the hinged door that Charlie
suggests. Once the engine cools, it will contract to close the door again.
"
For a full description of the suggestion above, see pages 140, 141, 142, and
143 of Tony Bingelis book,...Firewall Forward. There are complete line
drawings, temp and bellows extension lengths, linkage design, etc. Very
informative and very simple,... almost elegant :-)
Bill S
7a Ark - not yet flying :-(
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest
Christley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Automatic upper cowl flap |
OK, here is a teaser. This is one of the Bengilis pages (P141) showing one
of the cowl flap actuator bellows.
Bill S
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Schlatterer
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 6:36 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Automatic upper cowl flap
-->
>> "Get you a temperature bellows off of a VW engine. Sorry I don't
>> know
the proper name. It expands when it gets hot, which it shouldn't do while
you're flying due to the airflow. But it will during post-flight taxi if
you rig it so that the expansion opens the hinged door that Charlie
suggests. Once the engine cools, it will contract to close the door again.
"
For a full description of the suggestion above, see pages 140, 141, 142, and
143 of Tony Bingelis book,...Firewall Forward. There are complete line
drawings, temp and bellows extension lengths, linkage design, etc. Very
informative and very simple,... almost elegant :-)
Bill S
7a Ark - not yet flying :-(
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest
Christley
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Automatic Headlight Hi/Lo Fallover Circuit |
| From: | "TbirdRV" <tbirdrv(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Eric,
I would like to see your "back-of-the-envelope" design.
What do you mean "by adding one simple wire"? Just a jumper from the high to low
beam at the lamp, or another wire from a switch in the cockpit. I'd like to
hear your ideas.
At some point I will install LED headlights, probably after it's "plug-n-play".
Thanks,
--------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tony Kirk
RV-6A N57TK
www.TomsRV8.com
webmaster www.EAA582.org
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121950#121950
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "C Smith" <pilot4profit(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | multi detent 10k potentiometer? |
Automotive application fan controls may not be a viable solution. Some use a
wire resistive element with taps remotely positioned in the heater airbox. I
found this out when a mouse decided to build a nest in mine. When the fan
was turned on to a position other than "HIGH" something would start smoking.
After tearing apart he duct work, I found the nest, removed it, then the
side of my arm got burned on the wire element that was exposed inside the
box.
CS
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
bakerocb(at)cox.net
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 7:52 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: multi detent 10k potentiometer?
7/1/2007
Hello cj, I recently drove a Chevrolet Malibu rental car that had a click
knob rheostat to control the fan speed on the air flow to the car interior.
The knob itself was probably too large for your use, but you might check
with the parts section of a local dealer to find out what the insides are.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
Subject: AeroElectric-List: multi detent 10k potentiometer?
From: "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston(at)popsound.com>
Ok smart guys...get ready for a dumb guy question!
What do you call a regular old 10k pot that has multiple detents on it?
I'm trying to find a single turn 10k pot that has a click feel, maybe 20
detents or so, to use with a PWM dimming system for an lcd inverter.
But I have no idea what to call it! so I can't look for it! I tried and
tried, but all I find is pots with center detents, or pots with a switch at
the end, but that's the only detent. I'm very frustrated, and feeling very
stupid. Can someone smarter than me help me out?
Btw, I do know what it's called when you cross a hippopotamus, an elephant
and a rhino. Hellifiknow!
Sorry. and thanks.
cj
#40410
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Casey <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 07/02/07 |
I guess I have to ask the obvious(?) question - why are you worried
about the temperature after shutdown? First, the engine is water
cooled, so the majority of the mass is at a relatively low
temperature. All the components are, or should be, designed for that
temperature. What problem are you trying to solve? The weakest
material is probably the cowl itself, but some thin insulation should
help. I know that after shutdown when you touch the cowl it feels
really hot, but so what? Just wondering. (the gravity-operated doors
described seem to be the simplest "automatic" option)
Gary Casey
>
> Thanks Charlie
>
> It's really a smart idea, with only one inconvenient. It will not
> prevent
> rain water entrance when the aircraft is parked outside.
> I'll put it in my solutions list. If it doesn't work properly, I
> still need
> the electrical automation ...
>
> Carlos
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charlie England" <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 2:20 AM
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Automatic upper cowl flap
>
>
>>
>>
>> Carlos Trigo wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Since I'm using a Subaru engine, I need to have some kind of
>>> ventilation
>>> exit on the upper cowling, to dissipate heat after engine
>>> shutdown. Most
>>> builders just make a row of 3/4" holes, and others put side
>>> louvers that
>>> look like shark guills.
>>> I intend to make the upper row of holes, but don't want to let them
>>> always open, due to the possibility of rain penetration and also
>>> because
>>> they can have a bad influence in the cooling air flow inside the
>>> cowling.
>>> Therefore I thought of a small (some 15" x 1 1/2") moving flap,
>>> which
>>> covers the holes, and is normally closed in flight.
>>>
>>> Now the electrical challenge, that I put here to the smart guys
>>> of this
>>> list:
>>> The ideal solution to manouver this flap would be to
>>> automatically open
>>> it when the engine is turned off. How can it be done?
>>>
>>> Carlos
>>> RV-9A
>>>
>>> P.S. - I know this is not a KIS solution...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <jedwood(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Dual batteries with single alternator |
I am building a RV-7 with an all electric panel. I am considering using
two batteries and one alternator. I am looking for a circuit to use the
batteries isolated if there is a problem with the other or the
alternator. I will probably have only a main bus and a batt bus.
Thanks in advance.
Ed
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dual batteries with single alternator |
>I am building a RV-7 with an all electric panel. I am considering using
>two batteries and one alternator. I am looking for a circuit to use the
>batteries isolated if there is a problem with the other or the
>alternator. I will probably have only a main bus and a batt bus.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Ed
Have you reviewed the materials at:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf
If you don't have a copy, I'll suggest that you acquire
the AeroElectric Connection and review the chapter
on system reliability.
The optimal all electric system for weight, simplicity
and cost of ownership is Figure Z-13/8 in the
document cited above. Without knowing what engine
you're planning, I'll suggest you start with that
Figure.
If it's a Subaru conversion, then a second alternator
is not in the stars. Then you might consider
Figure Z-19.
Your concerns about "battery problems" are not well
founded. Assuming you plan to actively monitor battery
performance and replace when capacity falls below
established limits, then you need nothing more
sophisticated than a low voltage warning light and
the architecture that allows you to position switches
for comfortable termination of flight.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Physics is like sex: sure, it may )
( give some practical results, but )
( that's not why we do it." )
( )
( Richard P. Feynman )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ralph Hoover <hooverra(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic upper cowl flap |
Here is one source of the VW Temperature control Bellows.
http://www.bugcity.com/cgi-bin/WebStore/indexNEW.cgi/mi=yes/srchcd=111119159AX
--
Ralph C. Hoover
RV7A
hooverra at verizon dot net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Automatic Headlight Hi/Lo Fallover Circuit |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
>
> I would like to see your "back-of-the-envelope" design.
> What do you mean "by adding one simple wire"? Just a jumper from the high to
low beam at the lamp, or another wire from a switch in the cockpit. I'd like to
hear your ideas.
> At some point I will install LED headlights, probably after it's "plug-n-play".
I meant another wire to the lamp, allowing a switch to turn on one filament or
the other. But I sense there is some old and clever way to do this job that has
been around since 1930.
Attached is my "back-of-the-envelope" design. This is not adequate to build one,
but remember, I suggest not doing it at all.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve
to get it good and hard." -- H. L. Mencken
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122148#122148
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/high_beam_to_low_beam_165.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Emrath" <emrath(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Dynon Compass mounting |
I have seen some pictures of the EDC-10 compass mounting in a side by side
RV behind the baggage compartment near the top of the fuselage but I have
lost the reference for these pictures. I would like to review how this was
accompished to be able to replicate in my ship flattering the inventor of
this install method.
Does anyone have pictures of their installation of the compass module behind
the baggage compartment bulkhead that they can share with me?
Marty in Brentwood TN
RV-6A panel wiring and sanding fiberglass.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic Headlight Hi/Lo Fallover Circuit |
>I'm wondering if there is a device I can install on my landing lights that
>will sense when the high beam filament has failed and automagically switch
>the current to the low beam filament.
>
>I'm using the single source/single switch wig-wag system, as per
><http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Lighting/WigWag.pdf>http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Lighting/WigWag.pdf
>pg 3.0 and have only one wire to each light.
>
>My landing lights are a Bob Olds design and utilize dual filament
>automotive H4 halogen bulbs, one per side. I would like to have something
>(preferably home brewed - read low $$$) at each headlamp that will fall
>over to the low beam so I can double bulb life, reduce maintenance and
>save a little money.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Tony Kirk
>RV-6A N57TK
Your query reminded me of an article in progress that
needed to be finished. I've posted it at:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Failure_Detection_and_Annunciation.pdf
I'll echo Eric's admonition that automatic changeover
for failed components is appropriate only on weapons
systems and spacecraft. Even then, the fact that a failure
occurred and the last can of peas has been pulled down
off the shelf needs to be annunciated with as much reliability
as the automatic changeover system itself.
Adding such systems into our itty-bitty airplanes has
a high cost of ownership and poor return on investment.
Just because your RV wants to be a 787 when it grows up
doesn't mean it should be burdened with things that
even the 787 pilot (and his ground crew) would find more
of a hassle than a help.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Physics is like sex: sure, it may )
( give some practical results, but )
( that's not why we do it." )
( )
( Richard P. Feynman )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Strobe lights temperature |
>Hello,
>
>I have tested my Whelen strobe lights on the bench before installing them,
>and one of them (the tail one) is overheating (95C !! after a couple of
>minutes), although working fine. But it smells like a hot electric device.
>I cannot get from Whelen whether it is normal or not...
>
>I'd like to have the opinion of other users to compare with...
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>
>Philippe
>Brussels - Belgium
This is pretty toasty but perhaps not out of line for
a devices that is not mounted to an airframe for heat
sinking and cooled by slipstream.
I take it that you've got all fixtures running and there
is a marked difference in temperatures between the tail
fixture and the tip fixtures? Is there a nav-light in
the fixture. Is it on too?
The last time I looked inside one of these there were
two bulbs (nav and strobe) and a pulse transformer to
trigger the tube. Energies dissipated in the fixture
were dominated by the nav bulb and followed by the strobe
tube. The transformer should run stone cold. If you're
smelling something, it has to be the insulation in bulb
sockets, potting compounds or perhaps the insulation of
the pulse transformer. I'm having trouble getting my head
wrapped around the idea that one fixture should be markedly
different than the other two and why it might be different.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Physics is like sex: sure, it may )
( give some practical results, but )
( that's not why we do it." )
( )
( Richard P. Feynman )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com> |
| Subject: | Dynon Compass mounting |
Marty,
This isn't exactly what you asked for, but Vans now sells a "mount kit for
AHRS Unit" for the RV-7/9. Here's a reference and drawing:
http://tinyurl.com/2emg5f
In my RV-8A project I went to the trouble with the Blue Mountain remote
compass heading sensor to build a light-weight aluminum bridge to span from
one side of the fuselage to the other to try to get it as far from any steel
or electrical as possible. I think it will work, but there are probably
better ways.
Terry
RV-8A still building
Seattle
I have seen some pictures of the EDC-10 compass mounting in a side by side
RV behind the baggage compartment near the top of the fuselage but I have
lost the reference for these pictures. I would like to review how this was
accompished to be able to replicate in my ship flattering the inventor of
this install method.
Does anyone have pictures of their installation of the compass module behind
the baggage compartment bulkhead that they can share with me?
Marty in Brentwood TN
RV-6A panel wiring and sanding fiberglass.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Merlin" <phil.merlin(at)skynet.be> |
| Subject: | Strobe lights temperature |
Hello Bob,
Thanks for the reply. This t is reached with both bulbs strobe+position on,
but with the strobe only, it isn't much cooler. I have compared with the
wingtip strobes, and those remain cool enough to take them in hand. I'm
surprised by the difference...
Philippe
-----Message d'origine-----
De : owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Envoy : mercredi 4 juillet 2007 18:28
: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Objet : Re: AeroElectric-List: Strobe lights temperature
-->
>Hello,
>
>I have tested my Whelen strobe lights on the bench before installing
>them, and one of them (the tail one) is overheating (95C !! after a
>couple of minutes), although working fine. But it smells like a hot
electric device.
>I cannot get from Whelen whether it is normal or not...
>
>I'd like to have the opinion of other users to compare with...
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>
>Philippe
>Brussels - Belgium
This is pretty toasty but perhaps not out of line for
a devices that is not mounted to an airframe for heat
sinking and cooled by slipstream.
I take it that you've got all fixtures running and there
is a marked difference in temperatures between the tail
fixture and the tip fixtures? Is there a nav-light in
the fixture. Is it on too?
The last time I looked inside one of these there were
two bulbs (nav and strobe) and a pulse transformer to
trigger the tube. Energies dissipated in the fixture
were dominated by the nav bulb and followed by the strobe
tube. The transformer should run stone cold. If you're
smelling something, it has to be the insulation in bulb
sockets, potting compounds or perhaps the insulation of
the pulse transformer. I'm having trouble getting my head
wrapped around the idea that one fixture should be markedly
different than the other two and why it might be different.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Physics is like sex: sure, it may )
( give some practical results, but )
( that's not why we do it." )
( )
( Richard P. Feynman )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Gill" <wgill10(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Strobe lights temperature |
I believe the energy supplied for the tail strobe is twice that supplied
to EACH wingtip strobe IF the wingtip strobes flash simultaneously...a
wiring option for the installer.
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Strobe lights temperature
>Hello,
>
>I have tested my Whelen strobe lights on the bench before installing
them,
>and one of them (the tail one) is overheating (95C !! after a couple
of
>minutes), although working fine. But it smells like a hot electric
device.
>I cannot get from Whelen whether it is normal or not...
>
>I'd like to have the opinion of other users to compare with...
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>
>Philippe
>Brussels - Belgium
This is pretty toasty but perhaps not out of line for
a devices that is not mounted to an airframe for heat
sinking and cooled by slipstream.
I take it that you've got all fixtures running and there
is a marked difference in temperatures between the tail
fixture and the tip fixtures? Is there a nav-light in
the fixture. Is it on too?
The last time I looked inside one of these there were
two bulbs (nav and strobe) and a pulse transformer to
trigger the tube. Energies dissipated in the fixture
were dominated by the nav bulb and followed by the strobe
tube. The transformer should run stone cold. If you're
smelling something, it has to be the insulation in bulb
sockets, potting compounds or perhaps the insulation of
the pulse transformer. I'm having trouble getting my head
wrapped around the idea that one fixture should be markedly
different than the other two and why it might be different.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Physics is like sex: sure, it may )
( give some practical results, but )
( that's not why we do it." )
( )
( Richard P. Feynman )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PJ Seipel <seipel(at)seznam.cz> |
| Subject: | Re: Strobe lights temperature |
I have the same problem, and asked the same question on the RV List and
several others reported the same situation. In my case, the tail strobe
flashes twice as many times as the wingtip strobes, which is what I
believe is causing the heating. In my case, it got so hot that it
clouded the lens. I spoke to Whelen about it, and all they could tell
me was that it needs to be installed in the plane and with some length
of wiring between the strobe and power supply. According to the guy I
spoke to, hooking the strobes direct to the power supply with a short
length of wire is bad.
I'm still concerned that it may scorch the fiberglass rudder tip, but I
guess I won't know until I install it.
PJ Seipel
RV-10 #40032
Robert L. Nuckolls wrote:
>
>
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I have tested my Whelen strobe lights on the bench before installing
>> them, and one of them (the tail one) is overheating (95C !! after a
>> couple of minutes), although working fine. But it smells like a hot
>> electric device. I cannot get from Whelen whether it is normal or not...
>>
>> I'd like to have the opinion of other users to compare with...
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>>
>> Philippe
>> Brussels - Belgium
>
> This is pretty toasty but perhaps not out of line for
> a devices that is not mounted to an airframe for heat
> sinking and cooled by slipstream.
>
> I take it that you've got all fixtures running and there
> is a marked difference in temperatures between the tail
> fixture and the tip fixtures? Is there a nav-light in
> the fixture. Is it on too?
>
> The last time I looked inside one of these there were
> two bulbs (nav and strobe) and a pulse transformer to
> trigger the tube. Energies dissipated in the fixture
> were dominated by the nav bulb and followed by the strobe
> tube. The transformer should run stone cold. If you're
> smelling something, it has to be the insulation in bulb
> sockets, potting compounds or perhaps the insulation of
> the pulse transformer. I'm having trouble getting my head
> wrapped around the idea that one fixture should be markedly
> different than the other two and why it might be different.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------
> ( "Physics is like sex: sure, it may )
> ( give some practical results, but )
> ( that's not why we do it." )
> ( )
> ( Richard P. Feynman )
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Danny Smith" <dsmit132(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Battery Won't Take a Charge |
I have a couple of 12V Panasonic batteries that came out of a computer UPS
that are much like the Odyssey PC680.
They've been setting on the bench for months and only shows about 11.4V.
(They were ok when I last used them.)
When I hook the battery charger up they measure 12.9V but the charger shows
0 amps. If I leave it hooked
up the 12.9V measurement remains but still 0 amps. If after several hours of
being hooked to the charger I
unhook it they still read 11.4 V again.
Is this a charger problem or battery problem?
Danny
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Emrath" <emrath(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Dynon Compass mounting |
Thanks Terry, it is interesting but I would rather not mount the compass
module there as it would interfer with something like a EZ Autopilot
altitude hold, should I add one at some point. A similar set up on the
turtle deck might work.
Marty
Subject: RE: Dynon Compass mounting
From: Terry Watson (terry(at)tcwatson.com)
Date: Wed Jul 04 - 8:31 AM
Marty,
This isn't exactly what you asked for, but Vans now sells a "mount kit for
AHRS Unit" for the RV-7/9. Here's a reference and drawing:
http://tinyurl.com/2emg5f
In my RV-8A project I went to the trouble with the Blue Mountain remote
compass heading sensor to build a light-weight aluminum bridge to span from
one side of the fuselage to the other to try to get it as far from any steel
or electrical as possible. I think it will work, but there are probably
better ways.
Terry
RV-8A still building
Seattle
I have seen some pictures of the EDC-10 compass mounting in a side by side
RV behind the baggage compartment near the top of the fuselage but I have
lost the reference for these pictures. I would like to review how this was
accompished to be able to replicate in my ship flattering the inventor of
this install method.
Does anyone have pictures of their installation of the compass module behind
the baggage compartment bulkhead that they can share with me?
Marty in Brentwood TN
RV-6A panel wiring and sanding fiberglass.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Merlin" <phil.merlin(at)skynet.be> |
| Subject: | Strobe lights temperature |
Hi Bill,
Thanks very much for pointing my mistake :-) I don't understand how I have
skipped that note on the product sheet... And Whelen themselves didn't tell
me anything when I have complained... I'll remove the jumper that makes the
alternate flashing, one sole strobe doesn't seem to be designed to withstand
energy for two...
Phil
-----Message d'origine-----
De : owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de William
Gill
Envoy : mercredi 4 juillet 2007 19:20
: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Objet : RE: AeroElectric-List: Strobe lights temperature
-->
I believe the energy supplied for the tail strobe is twice that supplied to
EACH wingtip strobe IF the wingtip strobes flash simultaneously...a wiring
option for the installer.
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Strobe lights temperature
>Hello,
>
>I have tested my Whelen strobe lights on the bench before installing
them,
>and one of them (the tail one) is overheating (95C !! after a couple
of
>minutes), although working fine. But it smells like a hot electric
device.
>I cannot get from Whelen whether it is normal or not...
>
>I'd like to have the opinion of other users to compare with...
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>
>Philippe
>Brussels - Belgium
This is pretty toasty but perhaps not out of line for
a devices that is not mounted to an airframe for heat
sinking and cooled by slipstream.
I take it that you've got all fixtures running and there
is a marked difference in temperatures between the tail
fixture and the tip fixtures? Is there a nav-light in
the fixture. Is it on too?
The last time I looked inside one of these there were
two bulbs (nav and strobe) and a pulse transformer to
trigger the tube. Energies dissipated in the fixture
were dominated by the nav bulb and followed by the strobe
tube. The transformer should run stone cold. If you're
smelling something, it has to be the insulation in bulb
sockets, potting compounds or perhaps the insulation of
the pulse transformer. I'm having trouble getting my head
wrapped around the idea that one fixture should be markedly
different than the other two and why it might be different.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Physics is like sex: sure, it may )
( give some practical results, but )
( that's not why we do it." )
( )
( Richard P. Feynman )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Reeves <n516dr(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dynon Compass mounting |
http://www.rvproject.com/20030809.html
I have seen some pictures of the EDC-10 compass mounting in a side by side
RV behind the baggage compartment near the top of the fuselage but I have
lost the reference for these pictures. I would like to review how this was
accompished to be able to replicate in my ship flattering the inventor of
this install method.
Does anyone have pictures of their installation of the compass module behind
the baggage compartment bulkhead that they can share with me?
Marty in Brentwood TN
RV-6A panel wiring and sanding fiberglass.
---------------------------------
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RE: Dynon Compass mounting |
In a message dated 7/4/2007 12:43:44 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
emrath(at)comcast.net writes:
http://tinyurl.com/2emg5f
Check out Dan Checkoway's site at rvproject.com. He has a Dynon magnetometer
mounted in the top of the rear fuselage. Great photos on his build site.
John Greaves
VariEze N81JG
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ralph Hoover <hooverra(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic Headlight Hi/Lo Fallover Circuit |
Several turns of heavy magnet wire ~18 ga wound the length of a magnetic
reed switch in place of the .01 ohm resistor and you could bias the FET
on when the current flow stops. A similar idea is used to drive the
bulb failure indicator on some cars (Volvo, uses a Bosch module) It
turns on a warning bulb not an FET but the idea is there.
--
Ralph C. Hoover
RV7A
hooverra at verizon dot net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dynon Compass mounting |
_www.rvproject.com_ (http://www.rvproject.com) Many photos of the
magnetometer installation of Dan Checkoway in his construction log.
John
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Automatic Headlight Hi/Lo Fallover Circuit |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
I've said it before (and so have others).. Most of the time you don't
really need a landing light at all. I probably make slightly more
consistently smooth landings with a light, but I've don't lots without.
Certainly if you are operating from an airfield that doesn't have runway
lights, you'll need something that's reliable/redundant (if you don't have
an acceptable alternate landing field for the _very rare case when a light
has failed).
Again echoing others, I'd add the other wire to run the other filament.
You _could_ add a second control wire (lighter) to run a relay which
allows you to select which filament is lit - dimmer relay - mounted near
the bulbs..
I like my Cessna setup with 2 bulbs - a taxi light and a landing light
mounted in the wing. I especially like the wing tip mounted lights. The
taxi light and landing lights are aimed such that either works adequately
at either purpose. Taildraggers might not be like this..
Whatever you do, make sure replacing the bulbs is easy..
Regards,
Matt-
>
>
>
>>
>> I would like to see your "back-of-the-envelope" design.
>> What do you mean "by adding one simple wire"? Just a jumper from the
>> high to low beam at the lamp, or another wire from a switch in the
>> cockpit. I'd like to hear your ideas.
>> At some point I will install LED headlights, probably after it's
>> "plug-n-play".
>
>
> I meant another wire to the lamp, allowing a switch to turn on one
> filament or the other. But I sense there is some old and clever way to do
> this job that has been around since 1930.
>
> Attached is my "back-of-the-envelope" design. This is not adequate to
> build one, but remember, I suggest not doing it at all.
>
> "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and
> deserve to get it good and hard." -- H. L. Mencken
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones(at)charter.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122148#122148
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/high_beam_to_low_beam_165.pdf
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic Headlight Hi/Lo Fallover Circuit |
>
>Several turns of heavy magnet wire ~18 ga wound the length of a magnetic
>reed switch in place of the .01 ohm resistor and you could bias the FET on
>when the current flow stops. A similar idea is used to drive the bulb
>failure indicator on some cars (Volvo, uses a Bosch module) It turns on a
>warning bulb not an FET but the idea is there.
Not sure what you're referring to here . . . perhaps your
message was truncated?
I considered a variety of current sensing techniques for
the article but settled on the reed switch as the simplest
and most likely to be successfully assembled by a neophyte.
The last few circuits I designed that included a non-contact,
current sense feature used hall devices from Amploc. See:
http://amploc.com/HANDBOOK%204.pdf
I use these critters a lot when I need to grab a
medium quality current value from a wire in an airplane
where I need to avoid cutting into it for a shunt.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic Headlight Hi/Lo Fallover Circuit |
> I considered a variety of current sensing techniques for
> the article but settled on the reed switch as the simplest
> and most likely to be successfully assembled by a neophyte.
> The last few circuits I designed that included a non-contact,
> current sense feature used hall devices from Amploc. See:
>
> http://amploc.com/HANDBOOK%204.pdf
>
> I use these critters a lot when I need to grab a
> medium quality current value from a wire in an airplane
> where I need to avoid cutting into it for a shunt.
>
> Bob . . .
Bob
And with this critters as current sensors, which is the dedicated digital
indicator we can use in our aircraft's instrument panel ?
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Clarification between: main/essential/battery bus? |
| From: | "mikef" <mikefapex(at)gmail.com> |
Hi,
I'm a new aircraft owner and am considering reworking the electrical system, and
my av electric knowledge is rudimentary. I am having a hard time understanding
the difference between the main, essential, and battery bus. I've have, and
have read the AeroConnection and the figure 17-3 is what I think I'd like to
get to given my aircraft and flying type.
I guess I am mostly confused over what is essential vs battery bus. I would think
anything categorized as essential would need to be on the battery bus too.
Thanks for any clarification,
Mike
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122419#122419
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Clarification between: main/essential/battery |
bus?
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
It's been a while since I've thought about this, but here are a couple of
items:
- The "essential bus" has been renamed to "endurance bus" to make the
name more accurately reflect the purpose - namely to efficiently provide
power to the items that you need in order to comfortably complete a
flight after the failure of the primary electrical energy source
(alternator). Switching the main bus off and leaving the endurance bus
on offers a single switch method of load shedding..
- The battery bus should power the items that are needed to keep the
engine running while the rest of the electrical system is de-energized.
If your engine has EFI or electronic ignition, it should probably powered
from the battery bus. Additionally, certain accessories might be powered
from the battery bus - maybe a cabin courtesy/panel light.
Nav/comm/txp equipment shouldn't be on the battery bus - not required for
keeping the engine running. An EFI fuel pump shouldn't be on the
endurance bus..
Regards,
Matt-
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm a new aircraft owner and am considering reworking the electrical
> system, and my av electric knowledge is rudimentary. I am having a hard
> time understanding the difference between the main, essential, and battery
> bus. I've have, and have read the AeroConnection and the figure 17-3 is
> what I think I'd like to get to given my aircraft and flying type.
>
> I guess I am mostly confused over what is essential vs battery bus. I
> would think anything categorized as essential would need to be on the
> battery bus too.
>
> Thanks for any clarification,
>
> Mike
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122419#122419
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ralph Hoover <hooverra(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic Headlight Hi/Lo Fallover Circuit |
Bob,
Sorry I wasn't clear. The magnetic current sense element as
described could be applied to the circuit described by Eric and thus
eliminating the gain block and the series resistor required to develop
the I/R drop that is the input to the gain block. Just after sending my
previous post I saw your sensor circuit post. So my concept was to
utilize the reed switch to turn on the FET just as you suggest turning
on the LED indicator. The Volvo/Bosch module is interesting in that it
uses a bifilar winding with current from one bulb going one way and
current from the other in a pair (say front and rear right turn signal).
If both bulbs are burning the fields cancel and no warning. This
eliminates the problem of triggering a warning if the lights are turned
off or flashing. The only state that will switch the module is
unbalanced current in the 2 coils as in only one bulb lighted.
Ralph Hoover
RV7A
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> Several turns of heavy magnet wire ~18 ga wound the length of a
>> magnetic reed switch in place of the .01 ohm resistor and you could
>> bias the FET on when the current flow stops. A similar idea is used
>> to drive the bulb failure indicator on some cars (Volvo, uses a Bosch
>> module) It turns on a warning bulb not an FET but the idea is there.
>
> Not sure what you're referring to here . . . perhaps your
> message was truncated?
>
> I considered a variety of current sensing techniques for
> the article but settled on the reed switch as the simplest
> and most likely to be successfully assembled by a neophyte.
> The last few circuits I designed that included a non-contact,
> current sense feature used hall devices from Amploc. See:
>
> http://amploc.com/HANDBOOK%204.pdf
>
> I use these critters a lot when I need to grab a
> medium quality current value from a wire in an airplane
> where I need to avoid cutting into it for a shunt.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
--
Ralph C. Hoover
RV7A
hooverra at verizon dot net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Emrath" <emrath(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Dynon Compass mounting |
Thanks to everyone for their comments and thoughts. I forget to check Dan's
site first. While not exactly what I'd seen, that has started my o'grey
matter to think of what to do. The tail cone seems like a neat idea unless
you even need to service it. Then I'll need a "baggage compartment monkey"
to get back there and fix it, not to be confused with a "trunk monkey".
Marty
-----Original Message-----
From: Emrath [mailto:emrath(at)comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 9:51 AM
Subject: Dynon Compass mounting
I have seen some pictures of the EDC-10 compass mounting in a side by side
RV behind the baggage compartment near the top of the fuselage but I have
lost the reference for these pictures. I would like to review how this was
accompished to be able to replicate in my ship flattering the inventor of
this install method. Does anyone have pictures of their installation of the
compass module behind the baggage compartment bulkhead that they can share
with me?
Marty in Brentwood TN
RV-6A panel wiring and sanding fiberglass.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Attitude gyro problem. |
| From: | "Nick1" <na_derevnu(at)canada.com> |
Greg,
Just curious what was the problem?
Do you need any more suggestions?
Nick
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122481#122481
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic Headlight Hi/Lo Fallover Circuit |
>
>Bob,
> Sorry I wasn't clear. The magnetic current sense element as described
> could be applied to the circuit described by Eric and thus eliminating
> the gain block and the series resistor required to develop the I/R drop
> that is the input to the gain block. Just after sending my previous post
> I saw your sensor circuit post.
Hmmm . . . guess I missed Eric's suggestion and got out of the loop.
> So my concept was to utilize the reed switch to turn on the FET just as
> you suggest turning on the LED indicator. The Volvo/Bosch module is
> interesting in that it uses a bifilar winding with current from one bulb
> going one way and current from the other in a pair (say front and rear
> right turn signal). If both bulbs are burning the fields cancel and no
> warning. This eliminates the problem of triggering a warning if the
> lights are turned off or flashing. The only state that will switch the
> module is unbalanced current in the 2 coils as in only one bulb lighted.
Hadn't thought of that. I'll have to add it to the bag of tricks.
Thanks!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery Won't Take a Charge |
| From: | "dannylsmith" <dsmit132(at)bellsouth.net> |
Can someone take a guess at this question?
Thanks, Danny
--------
Danny
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122511#122511
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery Won't Take a Charge |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
What's the question? We have a short attention span (at least I do,
anyway), so it's probably a good idea to completely re-ask questions that
don't get answered.. In the interest of being helpful, and because I was
curious, I looked in the archive. A requote:
"I have a couple of 12V Panasonic batteries that came out of a computer UPS
that are much like the Odyssey PC680.
They've been setting on the bench for months and only shows about 11.4V.
(They were ok when I last used them.)
When I hook the battery charger up they measure 12.9V but the charger shows
0 amps. If I leave it hooked
up the 12.9V measurement remains but still 0 amps. If after several hours of
being hooked to the charger I
unhook it they still read 11.4 V again.
Is this a charger problem or battery problem?
Danny"
Both batteries are at 11.4V? The charger behaves the same way when
attached to each separately?
Sounds like a charger problem though 11.4V no-load says the battery is
quite dead, or might have a damaged cell. I think 12.9V isn't enough to
really charge a battery - maybe _very_ slowly. You'll need something more
like 13.5V-14V to make anything happen.
You don't mention what kind of charger you are using..
You could take that charger and attach it to a battery that appears to be
healthy (maybe on your car) and see what it puts out. If it reaches a
normal charging voltage and current then your Panasonic(s) is(are)
probably damaged in some way.
Regards,
Matt-
>
>
> Can someone take a guess at this question?
> Thanks, Danny
>
> --------
> Danny
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122511#122511
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery Won't Take a Charge |
| From: | Ron Quillin <rjquillin(at)gmail.com> |
At 12:10 7/4/2007, you wrote:
>
>
>I have a couple of 12V Panasonic batteries that came out of a computer UPS
>that are much like the Odyssey PC680.
>They've been setting on the bench for months and only shows about 11.4V.
>(They were ok when I last used them.)
>When I hook the battery charger up they measure 12.9V but the charger shows
>0 amps. If I leave it hooked
>up the 12.9V measurement remains but still 0 amps. If after several hours of
>being hooked to the charger I
>unhook it they still read 11.4 V again.
>
>Is this a charger problem or battery problem?
>
>Danny
Battery problem.
I won't hazard a guess as to the exact failure mechanism, but as I
understand it, one or more cells or internal connections go high
resistance and the battery is unable to supply or accept any current.
Ron Q.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Dynon Compass mounting |
Hi Marty,
I mounted mine on a bracket on the flat deck under the horizontal
stabilizer. It fits well there and is very easily accessible by removing
the fairing. I am not at home right now otherwise I could send you some
pictures. It seems to work well in that location.
Franz
Franz Fux
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Emrath
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 5:38 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Dynon Compass mounting
Thanks to everyone for their comments and thoughts. I forget to check
Dan's
site first. While not exactly what I'd seen, that has started my o'grey
matter to think of what to do. The tail cone seems like a neat idea
unless
you even need to service it. Then I'll need a "baggage compartment
monkey"
to get back there and fix it, not to be confused with a "trunk monkey".
Marty
-----Original Message-----
From: Emrath [mailto:emrath(at)comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 9:51 AM
Subject: Dynon Compass mounting
I have seen some pictures of the EDC-10 compass mounting in a side by
side
RV behind the baggage compartment near the top of the fuselage but I
have
lost the reference for these pictures. I would like to review how this
was
accompished to be able to replicate in my ship flattering the inventor
of
this install method. Does anyone have pictures of their installation of
the
compass module behind the baggage compartment bulkhead that they can
share
with me?
Marty in Brentwood TN
RV-6A panel wiring and sanding fiberglass.
--
6:36 AM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Won't Take a Charge |
>
>
>Can someone take a guess at this question?
>Thanks, Danny
>
>--------
>Danny
I agree with Matt that the voltages you've quoted raise some
questions as to the condition of your charger. Consider a
trip to Walmart to pick up a Schumacher WM-1562 charger.
They're under $20 and very smart. An exemplar charging
profile for this device is shown at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_3.jpg
Your batteries need to be charged with a constant current
until voltage rises to something between 14.5 and 15.0 volts
for a SHORT period of time. After the battery is topped off,
the charger output relaxes to something just over 13 volts
and stay there no matter how long the charger is left connected
to the battery (maintenance mode).
After you've cycled the batteries over a known good charger,
the minimum test for battery integrity would be to load
them t0 about 300 amps and see how long it takes for
the voltage to drop below 9 volts. You can do this with
an inexpensive but well crafted device from Harbor Freight
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Battery_Testers/HF91129_4.jpg
These run about $60 normally but go on sale from
time to time for less. I think I paid $40 for the
one I have. If you done wish to acquire this capability,
then go to a automotive service station and see if
they'll test them for you. Hold 300 amps for 15
seconds . . . the voltage should be 9.0V or greater
at the end of 15 seconds.
If that test is good, then it's probable that the
batteries are fit for service in the airplane but
it would be a good thing to check for capacity either
in the airplane or by conducting some sort of endurance
bench test like that described in:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/battest.pdf
or with a capacity tester like:
http://westmountainradio.com/CBA_ham.htm
The short answer to your question is, we believe your
charger may not be working properly to top of
a lead-acid battery. If push comes to shove,
you can hook one of the batteries right to
your cigar lighter in the car and leave it plugged
in for a few days of driving around. I have
several such adapter cables that travel with
me to maintain instrumentation batteries in the
field.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Physics is like sex: sure, it may )
( give some practical results, but )
( that's not why we do it." )
( )
( Richard P. Feynman )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Won't Take a Charge |
>
>What's the question? We have a short attention span (at least I do,
>anyway), so it's probably a good idea to completely re-ask questions that
>don't get answered.. In the interest of being helpful, and because I was
>curious, I looked in the archive. A requote:
>
>"I have a couple of 12V Panasonic batteries that came out of a computer UPS
>that are much like the Odyssey PC680.
>They've been setting on the bench for months and only shows about 11.4V.
>(They were ok when I last used them.)
>When I hook the battery charger up they measure 12.9V but the charger shows
>0 amps. If I leave it hooked
>up the 12.9V measurement remains but still 0 amps. If after several hours of
>being hooked to the charger I
>unhook it they still read 11.4 V again.
>
>Is this a charger problem or battery problem?
Just for grins, hook up the charger and watch the voltage
while the charter is on. see if you can get a measurement
every 15 minutes or so as long as it's changing. What we'd
LIKE to see is a slow climb to 14.5 volts or more.
However, you mentioned that these batteries had been in
service on a UPS . . . do you know for how long? And were
they removed from ACTIVE (UPS plugged into the wall) service?
If allowed to set in a discharged state for very long,
the batteries will self-destruct.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
7/7/2007
Hello Bob Nuckolls and Fellow Listers, I recently became aware of an
aircraft electrical event that I'd like your opinions on:
1) Situation: Type certificated aircraft. Day VFR, shut down for refueling
at a field a short flying distance from home field (fuel is cheaper).
Maintenance with significant delay until following week (this was Friday
afternoon) was possible. Retrieval of pilots by third party driving
automobile very awkward.
2) Upon starting attempt starter gave a brief bump to prop and then all
electrical feed from the battery to the aircraft ceased.
3) Borrowed voltmeter and some poking around revealed that the battery had
24.8 volts available.
4) The main battery contactor ("Battery Relay" P/N 6041H189) would click
once each time when the master battery switch was turned on, but no voltage
would appear on the output terminal of the contactor.
5) Conclusion was reached that the main battery contactor had failed
internally.
6) Solution applied was to use a battery jumper cable to bypass the main
battery contactor.
7) The aircraft was then started with the key switch in a normal fashion.
8) Once the alternator started functioning, after the engine started
running, electricity was available in a normal fashion.
9) The aircraft was flown to home base with normal electrical functioning,
but with no battery available to either buffer / cushion the alternator
output or provide electricity in case of alternator failure or opening of
the 50 amp alternator feed line circuit breaker.
10) Flight risk was considered acceptable because a no electrical supply VFR
landing could be made at either of two non towered airports in the vicinity.
Questions are:
A) Was any part of the electrical system put at risk of damage by operating
the aircraft in this manner for the short flight to home field? If so, why?
B) Where is the best source to buy this rather obsolete "Battery Relay" P/N
6041H189; NSN 5945-00-588-8555, or a currently manufactured acceptable
substitute part?
Thanks.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
PS: Could you please respond direct as well as to the list -- I only get the
list digest so have a 24 hour delay.
PPS: This is the second main battery contactor failure that I am aware of
within the last year. Other failure was with a garden variety contactor (P/N
111-226) when the very small coil wire fractured. I have rewired my amateur
built experimental a bit with this failure in mind.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rd2(at)evenlink.com |
| Subject: | Re: Automatic Headlight Hi/Lo Fallover Circuit |
Hi all,
not sure if there was an answer to Carlos' question, could not locate one.
I'd be interested in the answer as well.
Thanks
Rumen
_____________________Original message __________________________
(received from Carlos Trigo; Date: 08:54 PM 7/5/2007
+0100)
________________________________________________________________
> I considered a variety of current sensing techniques for
> the article but settled on the reed switch as the simplest
> and most likely to be successfully assembled by a neophyte.
> The last few circuits I designed that included a non-contact,
> current sense feature used hall devices from Amploc. See:
>
> http://amploc.com/HANDBOOK%204.pdf
>
> I use these critters a lot when I need to grab a
> medium quality current value from a wire in an airplane
> where I need to avoid cutting into it for a shunt.
>
> Bob . . .
Bob
And with this critters as current sensors, which is the dedicated digital
indicator we can use in our aircraft's instrument panel ?
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Electrical Risk |
7/7/2007
Hello Bob Nuckolls and Fellow Listers, I recently became aware of an
aircraft electrical event that I'd like your opinions on:
1) Situation: Type certificated aircraft. Day VFR, shut down for refueling
at a field a short flying distance from home field (fuel is cheaper).
Maintenance with significant delay until following week (this was Friday
afternoon) was possible. Retrieval of pilots by third party driving
automobile very awkward.
2) Upon starting attempt starter gave a brief bump to prop and then all
electrical feed from the battery to the aircraft ceased.
3) Borrowed voltmeter and some poking around revealed that the battery had
24.8 volts available.
4) The main battery contactor ("Battery Relay" P/N 6041H189) would click
once each time when the master battery switch was turned on, but no voltage
would appear on the output terminal of the contactor.
5) Conclusion was reached that the main battery contactor had failed
internally.
6) Solution applied was to use a battery jumper cable to bypass the main
battery contactor.
7) The aircraft was then started with the key switch in a normal fashion.
8) Once the alternator started functioning, after the engine started
running, electricity was available in a normal fashion.
9) The aircraft was flown to home base with normal electrical functioning,
but with no battery available to either buffer / cushion the alternator
output or provide electricity in case of alternator failure or opening of
the 50 amp alternator feed line circuit breaker.
10) Flight risk was considered acceptable because a no electrical supply
VFR landing could be made at either of two non towered airports in the
vicinity.
Questions are:
A) Was any part of the electrical system put at risk of damage by operating
the aircraft in this manner for the short flight to home field? If so, why?
Slightly. The alternator was running without benefit of a battery on
line. If I were
going to ferry a similarly afflicted aircraft, I would make a solid
connection of battery
relay, fat wires to bypass the battery relay. Without the battery,
there is slight risk
that a large, transient event (lowering the gear) could trigger an
overshoot in the
alternator's output response or stall the alternator and cause it to
shut down. However,
modern panel mounted electronics (DO-160 qualified) are 99+ percent
okay with this . . . and
the landing gear can be extended by hand. The totally risk-free ferry
philosophy would be
to start the engine, leave the electrical system cold. Leave the gear
down and don't use
flaps. It'a all a trade-off of options that should be left up to the
knowledgeable pilot
tasked with planning and executing the mission.
B) Where is the best source to buy this rather obsolete "Battery Relay" P/N
6041H189; NSN 5945-00-588-8555, or a currently manufactured acceptable
substitute part?
The 6041 series contactors are very much in production and still used
both for spares and for new design. Like all such devices, they continue
to fill a niche market where the designer realizes, "Sometimes the best
way to drive the nail is with a hammer."
Having said that, it's also true that the niche for these devices is
narrowed compared to breadth of the DC power controls market and
they're not as easily acquired. I did a google search on "6041H"
and "contactor" and got only 17 hits . . . a few of which were
suppliers. The catalog of variations on the theme for this part can
be downloaded from
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Contactors/Eaton_CH/
But let's noodle through the simple-ideas behind the notion that
the el-cheeso relay is worthy of relegation to the scrap heap
in favor of its more expensive and much rarer cousin . . .
The el-cheeso contactor (RPM Controls, White-Rogers, Stancore)
has been flying aboard light aircraft for about 70 years and in
proportionately huge volumes compared to the "mil quality"
device. If you ask any FBO mechanic how often they need to replace
one of these things, you'll get, "Oh yeah, I've replaced a boat-load
of those things!" But ask too how often he/she has replaced tires,
batteries, spark plugs, etc and you'll no doubt hear, "I've replaced
a boat load of those too."
The point being that ALL things have a service life limit. Further,
those limits are profoundly influenced by environment, operational
stresses and out-of-the-ordinary abuse by technique and perhaps
lack of preventative maintenance on the part of the owner/operator.
Things like tires and plugs are replaced based on physical
observation and/or periodic maintenance intervals. But somehow,
things like batteries, contactors, switches and other components
vulnerable to service-stresses are not so blessed with the mechanic's
attention.
This happens because there is (1) a lack of understanding as
to how life limit on these parts is influenced, (2) determination
of condition that goes beyond ordinary visual inspection (read labor
and thought-intensive) and (3) an insanely aggravated cost-of-
ownership generated from over-regulation by individuals demonstrably
short on understanding.
Yet we are loath to treat these components like spark plugs and
put service life limits on them. At the same time we get
our shorts in a bunch worrying about some failure to perform
that generates a maintenance inconvenience (as cited above)
or becomes the opening bars of the prelude for one's personal
dark-n-stormy-night story.
What's the first practical increment for elevating the comfort
levels of ownership of the aircraft cited above? The writer cites
multiple replacements of the battery contactor. Is this hard
evidence of and inability of the contactor to perform? Hmmmm . . .
there are hundreds of thousands of these same devices flying.
While replacement RATES (Failures per flight hour) are probably
higher than that of the high-dollar cousin, there's nothing
to that indicates these parts don't yield an acceptable
cost-of-ownership value. Two short-coupled failures of the
contactor? Hmmmm . . . is it possible that there's an underlying
operating stress that's shortening the life of the contactor?
Maybe . . . probably not. These parts have a calculable and probably
demonstrable mean time between failure. But when considering
some cited MTBF number reveals an average service life.
A small number of parts will go twice that value, a small number
of parts will crap 10 hours out of the box.
To make an upgrade decision without benefit of a detailed
study of the physics and field experience is intellectually
comforting . . . but the high-dollar part WILL also fail
at some point in time. If all you seek is to push the
inevitable out in time, then an upgrade is a perfectly
rational thing to do. If you're REALLY more interested
in reduced cost of ownership and/or canceling the show
on your personal dark-n-stormy-night drama, then an alternate
approach is indicated.
First, how about treating this contactor like a spark plug?
If you're willing to put $20 to $70 PER PLUG into an engine
every so often, is it also reasonable to plan for $25 for
a battery relay every so often as well?
I had a conversation with a reader some years ago worried
about getting stuck on a remote lake with his float plane.
We decided it was a good thing to carry spare contactors
and tools necessary for replacement.
If it were my airplane, in addition to periodic preventative
maintenance, the Avionics Master would become an e-bus
alternate feed switch and a normal feed diode would be
installed. Then I would be inoculated from both the
in-flight failure scenario as well as the conundrum of
"how to best ferry this airplane".
Thanks.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
Yup. There is no single "solution" that best fits the needs
for all owner/operators and a host of options.
PS: Could you please respond direct as well as to the list -- I only get
the list digest so have a 24 hour delay.
Done.
PPS: This is the second main battery contactor failure that I am aware of
within the last year. Other failure was with a garden variety contactor
(P/N 111-226) when the very small coil wire fractured. I have rewired my
amateur built experimental a bit with this failure in mind.
Depending on how many hoops you're willing/forced to jump, there
are other "upgrade" options. Consider:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Contactors/Tyco_Kilovac/ev200.pdf
There are a lot of opportunities (but widely spaced and
take $time$ to locate) for purchases. Some options to
explore are . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Contactors/Tyco_Kilovac/ev200.pdf
http://tinyurl.com/2usy58
http://tinyurl.com/3847kw
http://www.warbirdrelics.com/Electrical.htm
http://www.silindustries.com/_RefFiles/Capabilities%20List(19apr07).swf
http://www.electrospec.com/electronic/components-parts/index599.html
http://www.marineairsupply.com/index.html
http://www.clarkreiss.com/Inventory/relays/rl-speci
Of course, the one place guaranteed willing and able to supply
such a part is the service-parts department of your local FBO.
This presupposes that $time$ is no object. I think the lowest
cost-of-ownership solution is to carry a spare contactor and
tools necessary for replacement optionally combined with a
shift of duties for the avionics master switch.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mdharfst(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Starter Solenoid fuse blows, ideas? |
I have had a small nagging problem for several years since I started flying my
plane. All my attempts to mitigate the problem have not solved it but have decreased
the frequency. The basic problem is that the fuse that controls the firewall
mounted starter solenoid occasionally blows. Since the fuse is under the
glareshield it is a pain to change. Basically I am looking for ideas of what
might be causing this to happen and how to test to see if that idea is the cause.
This is a detailed description of my system. An O-320 engine with a Skytec lightweight
starter, two Slick mags, B&C 40A alternator and B&C voltage regulator,
a 17AH RG battery and master solenoid (S701-1) on the aft side of the firewall,
a B&C starter solenoid (S702-1) on the forward side of the firewall, and a
fuseblock under the glareshield. The big cables are #4 welding cable. The battery
is 12" from the master solenoid. The master to starter solenoid cable is about
10" through the firewall.
The plane is wired based on Bob's Z-11 drawing with the starter solenoid circuit
set up like Z-22. I use the rotary keyed mag/starter switch from ASSC.
Here is a description of the exact problem.
I have a fused wire leading to the bat terminal of the keyed switch that activates
the firewall mounted starter solenoid. The fuse is a 7.5A fuse. Occasionally
the fuse blows during starter cranking and then has to be replaced. The first
few times I replaced the fuse with another 7.5A fuse. The fuse would blow every
couple of months, and might occur two or three times in a row when it happened.
Also, it is tough to know exactly when the fuse blows. If it happens after
the solenoid engages I might get it started but wont realize it is blown until
I try to start it again for the return trip or maybe days later for the next
trip. That makes it difficult to pin down associated factors.
Here are a few things I've tried.
Originally I figured the starter itself was sticking and causing the starter solenoid
to overload so I put in a 10A fuse. This lowered the frequency of occurrence,
to about once or twice a year, but did not totally eliminate it.
I originally used the small light duty solenoid from B&C (the S704-1) which I thought
might not be up to the task. I eventually swapped it out for a heavy duty
intermittent duty solenoid and increased the size of the associated wiring
to be sure the wire size didn't cause a problem or have an intermittent fault
to ground somewhere. When I changed the solenoid the frequency went down to about
once a year.
Recently this 10A fuse blew and I replaced it with a 15A fuse that I had with me
but it immediately blew also when I turned the key. So I hand propped the plane
and took it to the hangar. The next day when I checked it the plane had no
problem and started right up with a new fuse. Just to check the normal current
flowing through this circuit with the plane acting well, I started it with successively
smaller fuses until one finally blew when I turned the key. The plane
started fine with a 15A fuse, with a 10A, with a 7.5A, with a 4A, with a 3A
and finally with a 1A fuse the starter kicked in and started the plane but the
1A fuse blew. This told me that the solenoid normally drew between 1 and 3
amps, just like it is supposed to, when the system is acting normally. It also
told me that when the system blows the fuse, the current draw can be as high
as 15A momentarily. That just doesn't make sense, how can a little solenoid pull
15A?
Here are a few ideas that I haven't been able to confirm, but I think might be
true.
If I don't move the prop, after a fuse blows, the next fuse will blow too, probably.
A blown fuse is a little more likely to happen when the engine is hot, but not
always.
It happens easier if I have to crank the starter for quite awhile, I can't tell
when exactly it pops though.
Early on I checked the voltage at the switch during cranking and it will drop to
10V before too much cranking. I havent checked it for a couple of years. I am
on my second battery too.
Also, the possibility exists that the keyed switch is the culprit, but I wont replace
it to test that idea. I would rather rewire to two toggle switches and
a starter button. Im saving that action for later.
Im open for suggestions.
Mike Harfst
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Starter Solenoid fuse blows, ideas? |
| From: | Ron Quillin <rjquillin(at)gmail.com> |
At 15:35 7/7/2007, you wrote:
>I'm open for suggestions.
>Mike Harfst
Where, physically, is the fuse located?
What is it mounted in?
I'm wondering if heat and vibration are contributing to degradation
and early failure.
Ron Q.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Electrical Risk |
7/7/2007
Hello Bob, Thanks for your detailed and prompt response to my request for
help. I'll follow up with a few comments put in [brackets].
Skipping most of OC's original email -- it is available in the archives if
needed.
> Questions (from OC) are:
>
> A) Was any part of the electrical system put at risk of damage by
> operating the aircraft in this manner for the short flight to home field?
> If so, why?
>
> Slightly. The alternator was running without benefit of a battery on
> line. If I were
> going to ferry a similarly afflicted aircraft, I would make a solid
> connection of battery
> relay, fat wires to bypass the battery relay. Without the battery,
> there is slight risk
> that a large, transient event (lowering the gear) could trigger an
> overshoot in the
> alternator's output response or stall the alternator and cause it to
> shut down. However,
> modern panel mounted electronics (DO-160 qualified) are 99+ percent
> okay with this . . . and
> the landing gear can be extended by hand. The totally risk-free ferry
> philosophy would be
> to start the engine, leave the electrical system cold. Leave the gear
> down and don't use
> flaps. It'a all a trade-off of options that should be left up to the
> knowledgeable pilot
> tasked with planning and executing the mission.
[Unfortunately, reentering the Washington DC ADIZ required electrical power
for VHF comm and transponder.]
> B) Where is the best source to buy this rather obsolete "Battery Relay"
> P/N 6041H189; NSN 5945-00-588-8555, or a currently manufactured acceptable
> substitute part?
>
> The 6041 series contactors are very much in production and still used
> both for spares and for new design. Like all such devices, they continue
> to fill a niche market where the designer realizes, "Sometimes the best
> way to drive the nail is with a hammer."
> Having said that, it's also true that the niche for these devices is
> narrowed compared to breadth of the DC power controls market and
> they're not as easily acquired. I did a google search on "6041H"
> and "contactor" and got only 17 hits . . . a few of which were
> suppliers. The catalog of variations on the theme for this part can
> be downloaded from
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Contactors/Eaton_CH/
[Yes, the current Eaton catalog has many 6041 series contactors, but none of
them are the 6041H189. We attempted to obtain a 6041H189 for this very same
Beech airplane a while back in order to replace the failed, but not
available, Starter Relay, P/N SBC 9401-1. The word from the Beech community
was that the 6041H189 would be an acceptable starter relay subtitute so we
attempted to obtain one. We never did get one, but that fact became moot
when the A&P doing the install insisted on documentation from Beechcraft
saying that a 6041H189 would be acceptable. Beech said "no it would not" and
a different starter relay (I don't have the P/N here) was obtained and
installed.]
[So now with the failure of the Battery Relay P/N 6041H189 we really need
that exact part or one that Beech says is an acceptable substitute. I can
find indications that there are some 6041H189 relays in existence on
shelves, but just not readily available.]
> But let's noodle through the simple-ideas behind the notion that
> the el-cheeso relay is worthy of relegation to the scrap heap
> in favor of its more expensive and much rarer cousin . . .
>
> The el-cheeso contactor (RPM Controls, White-Rogers, Stancore)
> has been flying aboard light aircraft for about 70 years and in
> proportionately huge volumes compared to the "mil quality"
> device. If you ask any FBO mechanic how often they need to replace
> one of these things, you'll get, "Oh yeah, I've replaced a boat-load
> of those things!" But ask too how often he/she has replaced tires,
> batteries, spark plugs, etc and you'll no doubt hear, "I've replaced
> a boat load of those too."
[In this instance of a type certificated airplane with the manufacturer's
IPC (Illustrated Parts Catalog) calling for a specific relay P/N and an
installing A&P mechanic insisting on documentation from the manufacturer to
cover his ass before he will install a different part, the el-cheeso
contactor is not an option.]
>
> The point being that ALL things have a service life limit. Further,
> those limits are profoundly influenced by environment, operational
> stresses and out-of-the-ordinary abuse by technique and perhaps
> lack of preventative maintenance on the part of the owner/operator.
>
> Things like tires and plugs are replaced based on physical
> observation and/or periodic maintenance intervals. But somehow,
> things like batteries, contactors, switches and other components
> vulnerable to service-stresses are not so blessed with the mechanic's
> attention.
>
> This happens because there is (1) a lack of understanding as
> to how life limit on these parts is influenced, (2) determination
> of condition that goes beyond ordinary visual inspection (read labor
> and thought-intensive) and (3) an insanely aggravated cost-of-
> ownership generated from over-regulation by individuals demonstrably
> short on understanding.
>
> Yet we are loath to treat these components like spark plugs and
> put service life limits on them. At the same time we get
> our shorts in a bunch worrying about some failure to perform
> that generates a maintenance inconvenience (as cited above)
> or becomes the opening bars of the prelude for one's personal
> dark-n-stormy-night story.
>
> What's the first practical increment for elevating the comfort
> levels of ownership of the aircraft cited above? The writer cites
> multiple replacements of the battery contactor. Is this hard
> evidence of and inability of the contactor to perform? Hmmmm . . .
> there are hundreds of thousands of these same devices flying.
> While replacement RATES (Failures per flight hour) are probably
> higher than that of the high-dollar cousin, there's nothing
> to that indicates these parts don't yield an acceptable
> cost-of-ownership value. Two short-coupled failures of the
> contactor? Hmmmm . . . is it possible that there's an underlying
> operating stress that's shortening the life of the contactor?
> Maybe . . . probably not. These parts have a calculable and probably
> demonstrable mean time between failure. But when considering
> some cited MTBF number reveals an average service life.
> A small number of parts will go twice that value, a small number
> of parts will crap 10 hours out of the box.
[The three contactor failures that I am aware of during the last year are:
1) The Starter Relay, P/N SBC 9401-1 in the Beech aircraft; 2) A garden
variety master battery contactor (P/N 111-138D or similar) failure in a
fairly new RV-8; and 3) Now the master battery contactor failure P/N
6041H189, in the same Beech aircraft as failure 1.]
[My reaction to failure number 2 was to rewire my own amateur built
experimental aircraft so that I could supply electrical power to my
transponder from my essential bus if my master battery contactor failed. A
transponder is required for operating in the Washington DC ADIZ where my
home field is located.]
> To make an upgrade decision without benefit of a detailed
> study of the physics and field experience is intellectually
> comforting . . . but the high-dollar part WILL also fail
> at some point in time. If all you seek is to push the
> inevitable out in time, then an upgrade is a perfectly
> rational thing to do. If you're REALLY more interested
> in reduced cost of ownership and/or canceling the show
> on your personal dark-n-stormy-night drama, then an alternate
> approach is indicated.
>
> First, how about treating this contactor like a spark plug?
> If you're willing to put $20 to $70 PER PLUG into an engine
> every so often, is it also reasonable to plan for $25 for
> a battery relay every so often as well?
>
> I had a conversation with a reader some years ago worried
> about getting stuck on a remote lake with his float plane.
> We decided it was a good thing to carry spare contactors
> and tools necessary for replacement.
>
> If it were my airplane, in addition to periodic preventative
> maintenance, the Avionics Master would become an e-bus
> alternate feed switch and a normal feed diode would be
> installed. Then I would be inoculated from both the
> in-flight failure scenario as well as the conundrum of
> "how to best ferry this airplane".
[Probably not a feasible course of action for the type certificated Beech
aircraft. It may be possible to push such a 337 change through our local
FSDO, but I doubt the owner would pay the tab for it.]
> Yup. There is no single "solution" that best fits the needs
> for all owner/operators and a host of options.
> PPS: This is the second main battery contactor failure that I am aware of
> within the last year. Other failure was with a garden variety contactor
> (P/N 111-226) when the very small coil wire fractured. I have rewired my
> amateur built experimental a bit with this failure in mind.
>
> Depending on how many hoops you're willing/forced to jump, there
> are other "upgrade" options. Consider:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Contactors/Tyco_Kilovac/ev200.pdf
>
> There are a lot of opportunities (but widely spaced and
> take $time$ to locate) for purchases. Some options to
> explore are . . .
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Contactors/Tyco_Kilovac/ev200.pdf
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2usy58
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3847kw
>
> http://www.warbirdrelics.com/Electrical.htm
>
> http://www.silindustries.com/_RefFiles/Capabilities%20List(19apr07).swf
>
> http://www.electrospec.com/electronic/components-parts/index599.html
>
> http://www.marineairsupply.com/index.html
>
> http://www.clarkreiss.com/Inventory/relays/rl-speci
>
> Of course, the one place guaranteed willing and able to supply
> such a part is the service-parts department of your local FBO.
> This presupposes that $time$ is no object. I think the lowest
> cost-of-ownership solution is to carry a spare contactor and
> tools necessary for replacement optionally combined with a
> shift of duties for the avionics master switch.
>
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mdharfst(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: Starter Solenoid fuse blows, ideas? |
Ron
The fuse is mounted in a fuseblock on top of the glove box behind my panel. No
heat there, little vibration, none of the other fuses have blown but are all subjected
to the same environment and some fuses blow without ever being flown.
You may have something there though, I'll put it on the list of things to check.
Thanks,
Mike
>>> Where, physically, is the fuse located?
What is it mounted in?
I'm wondering if heat and vibration are contributing to degradation
and early failure.<<<<
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ralph Hoover <hooverra(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter Solenoid fuse blows, ideas? |
Mike,
When the fuse blows what does it look like? If the element looks like it
melted and sagged until it parted you have a consistent slight overload.
If it the element is vaporized and black it was a large overload. I
suspect that if it is blowing 10A fuses consistently but at long
intervals and it operates on a 3 amp fuse for long periods of time you
may have an intermittent fault to ground. The solenoid pull in current
should not change with the load on the solenoid. The current required to
pull the solenoid is greater than the hold current so I suspect that
voltage drop while cranking is not the problem. You mentioned that you
do not know when the fuse blows. Does the starter drop out while
engaged? Does the solenoid start to move, click and drop out? Is it just
dead while no problem was noted on the previous start? Do you have a
snubber diode across the solenoid coil?
--
Ralph C. Hoover
RV7A
hooverra at verizon dot net
mdharfst(at)comcast.net wrote:
>
> I have had a small nagging problem for several years since I started flying my
plane. All my attempts to mitigate the problem have not solved it but have decreased
the frequency. The basic problem is that the fuse that controls the firewall
mounted starter solenoid occasionally blows. Since the fuse is under the
glareshield it is a pain to change. Basically I am looking for ideas of what
might be causing this to happen and how to test to see if that idea is the
cause.
> (snip)
> Im open for suggestions.
> Mike Harfst
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Todd Heffley <list(at)toddheffley.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter Solenoid fuse blows, ideas? |
Ron
I had a similar experience on a C-195. Turned out to be Chaffing at
the firewall feed-though, Chaffing ONLY occurred when the engine was
running!
Cast a ctitical eye on all of the wire-routing....
Good Luck
Todd
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Miles" <terrence_miles(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Starter Solenoid fuse blows, ideas? |
Mike,
I am only a Saturday afternoon mechanic. Take the following as "off the top
of my head" ideas.
Unless I missed it, you didn't mention about the coil on the starter motor.
Without looking at your system, it is likely your B&C "starter solenoid"
actually uses about 1 amp max to energize another coil that is bolted to the
starter motor. I'll call that second coil C-2 so we are both sure which
component we are talking about. C-2's job like any coil is to close the big
juice contactors so current at 150 amps maybe can go from the batt to the
starter motor. C2 is also responsible to throw the pinion gear into the fly
wheel and keep it that way until you let off on the starter button. C-1's
job is to energize C-2. The fuse that blows feels the draw from both C-1 and
C-2.
Your comment about having to move the prop or it blows a 2nd fuse makes me
want to investigate C-2 the coil on the skytec. Skytec will sell you
another coil for about $5 if they don't just out and out give you one from
stock. http://www.skytecair.com/ They are real good about answering tech
questions there too. If you call have model and serial # ready.
The C-2 casing is held on the starter motor with a couple of screws and the
guts can get swapped out just as easy. Look around at your ring gear and
the starter gears and see if you see any scoring. The pinion doesn't thrust
into the gears, or has some other mechanical problem the mech load creates
an amp draw that can eat a fuse--and be a literal roulette wheel like
problem that only happens some of the time.
Hope this leads you to a couple of ideas more. Good luck
Terry Miles
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
mdharfst(at)comcast.net
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 6:36 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Starter Solenoid fuse blows, ideas?
I have had a small nagging problem for several years since I started flying
my plane. All my attempts to mitigate the problem have not solved it but
have decreased the frequency. The basic problem is that the fuse that
controls the firewall mounted starter solenoid occasionally blows. Since the
fuse is under the glareshield it is a pain to change. Basically I am
looking for ideas of what might be causing this to happen and how to test to
see if that idea is the cause.
This is a detailed description of my system. An O-320 engine with a Skytec
lightweight starter, two Slick mags, B&C 40A alternator and B&C voltage
regulator, a 17AH RG battery and master solenoid (S701-1) on the aft side of
the firewall, a B&C starter solenoid (S702-1) on the forward side of the
firewall, and a fuseblock under the glareshield. The big cables are #4
welding cable. The battery is 12" from the master solenoid. The master to
starter solenoid cable is about 10" through the firewall.
The plane is wired based on Bob's Z-11 drawing with the starter solenoid
circuit set up like Z-22. I use the rotary keyed mag/starter switch from
ASSC.
Here is a description of the exact problem.
I have a fused wire leading to the bat terminal of the keyed switch that
activates the firewall mounted starter solenoid. The fuse is a 7.5A fuse.
Occasionally the fuse blows during starter cranking and then has to be
replaced. The first few times I replaced the fuse with another 7.5A fuse.
The fuse would blow every couple of months, and might occur two or three
times in a row when it happened. Also, it is tough to know exactly when the
fuse blows. If it happens after the solenoid engages I might get it started
but won't realize it is blown until I try to start it again for the return
trip or maybe days later for the next trip. That makes it difficult to pin
down associated factors.
Here are a few things I've tried.
Originally I figured the starter itself was sticking and causing the starter
solenoid to overload so I put in a 10A fuse. This lowered the frequency of
occurrence, to about once or twice a year, but did not totally eliminate it.
I originally used the small light duty solenoid from B&C (the S704-1) which
I thought might not be up to the task. I eventually swapped it out for a
heavy duty intermittent duty solenoid and increased the size of the
associated wiring to be sure the wire size didn't cause a problem or have an
intermittent fault to ground somewhere. When I changed the solenoid the
frequency went down to about once a year.
Recently this 10A fuse blew and I replaced it with a 15A fuse that I had
with me but it immediately blew also when I turned the key. So I hand
propped the plane and took it to the hangar. The next day when I checked it
the plane had no problem and started right up with a new fuse. Just to check
the normal current flowing through this circuit with the plane acting well,
I started it with successively smaller fuses until one finally blew when I
turned the key. The plane started fine with a 15A fuse, with a 10A, with a
7.5A, with a 4A, with a 3A and finally with a 1A fuse the starter kicked in
and started the plane but the 1A fuse blew. This told me that the solenoid
normally drew between 1 and 3 amps, just like it is supposed to, when the
system is acting normally. It also told me that when the system blows the
fuse, the current draw can be as high as 15A momentarily. That just doesn't
make sense, how can a little solenoid pull 15A?
Here are a few ideas that I haven't been able to confirm, but I think might
be true.
If I don't move the prop, after a fuse blows, the next fuse will blow too,
probably.
A blown fuse is a little more likely to happen when the engine is hot, but
not always.
It happens easier if I have to crank the starter for quite awhile, I can't
tell when exactly it pops though.
Early on I checked the voltage at the switch during cranking and it will
drop to 10V before too much cranking. I haven't checked it for a couple of
years. I am on my second battery too.
Also, the possibility exists that the keyed switch is the culprit, but I
won't replace it to test that idea. I would rather rewire to two toggle
switches and a starter button. I'm saving that action for later.
I'm open for suggestions.
Mike Harfst
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter Solenoid fuse blows, ideas? |
>
>I have had a small nagging problem for several years since I started
>flying my plane. All my attempts to mitigate the problem have not solved
>it but have decreased the frequency. The basic problem is that the fuse
>that controls the firewall mounted starter solenoid occasionally blows.
>Since the fuse is under the glareshield it is a pain to change. Basically
>I am looking for ideas of what might be causing this to happen and how to
>test to see if that idea is the cause.
>
>This is a detailed description of my system. An O-320 engine with a Skytec
>lightweight starter, two Slick mags, B&C 40A alternator and B&C voltage
>regulator, a 17AH RG battery and master solenoid (S701-1) on the aft side
>of the firewall, a B&C starter solenoid (S702-1) on the forward side of
>the firewall, and a fuseblock under the glareshield. The big cables are #4
>welding cable. The battery is 12" from the master solenoid. The master to
>starter solenoid cable is about 10" through the firewall.
>The plane is wired based on Bob's Z-11 drawing with the starter solenoid
>circuit set up like Z-22. I use the rotary keyed mag/starter switch from
>ASSC.
Z-22 describes a boost relay for the purpose of
utilizing the starter's built in solenoid while
isolating the relatively fragile starter push button
or key-switch from the ravages of starter solenoid
inrush currents. See:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/strtctr.pdf
>Here is a description of the exact problem.
>I have a fused wire leading to the bat terminal of the keyed switch that
>activates the firewall mounted starter solenoid. The fuse is a 7.5A fuse.
>Occasionally the fuse blows during starter cranking and then has to be
>replaced. The first few times I replaced the fuse with another 7.5A fuse.
>The fuse would blow every couple of months, and might occur two or three
>times in a row when it happened. Also, it is tough to know exactly when
>the fuse blows. If it happens after the solenoid engages I might get it
>started but won't realize it is blown until I try to start it again for
>the return trip or maybe days later for the next trip. That makes it
>difficult to pin down associated factors.
Starter solenoid? If you have a boost relay installed, the the
firewall mounted contactor goes away.
>Here are a few things I've tried.
>Originally I figured the starter itself was sticking and causing the
>starter solenoid to overload so I put in a 10A fuse. This lowered the
>frequency of occurrence, to about once or twice a year, but did not
>totally eliminate it.
The "STARTER" fuse on the main bus powers only the coil
of what ever device is expected to operate when the start
contacts are closed. If you're using an S702-1 style Starter
Contactor
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/s702-1l.jpg
then the current draw through this fuse is limited to about
5A max and a 7.5a fuse will handle this task indefinitely.
>I originally used the small light duty solenoid from B&C (the S704-1)
>which I thought might not be up to the task. I eventually swapped it out
>for a heavy duty intermittent duty solenoid and increased the size of the
>associated wiring to be sure the wire size didn't cause a problem or have
>an intermittent fault to ground somewhere. When I changed the solenoid
>the frequency went down to about once a year.
Now I'm really lost. The S704-1 is a 30A plastic
relay suggested as a stand-in for panel mounted
switches that do not do well controlling the starter
contactor/solenoid assembly directly -OR- for the
prevention of Starter Engagement Run-on phenomenon
common to PM motor starters. See notes on Figure Z-22
on page Z-5 of
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf
>Recently this 10A fuse blew and I replaced it with a 15A fuse that I had
>with me but it immediately blew also when I turned the key. So I hand
>propped the plane and took it to the hangar. The next day when I checked
>it the plane had no problem and started right up with a new fuse. Just to
>check the normal current flowing through this circuit with the plane
>acting well, I started it with successively smaller fuses until one
>finally blew when I turned the key. The plane started fine with a 15A
>fuse, with a 10A, with a 7.5A, with a 4A, with a 3A and finally with a 1A
>fuse the starter kicked in and started the plane but the 1A fuse blew.
>This told me that the solenoid normally drew between 1 and 3 amps, just
>like it is supposed to, when the system is acting normally. It also told
>me that when the system blows the fuse, the current draw can be as high as
>15A momentarily. That just doesn't make sense, how can a little solenoid
>pull 15A?
We're wrapped about some semantic axles here. The S704-1
is a power relay, the S702-1 is a starter contactor (BIG
relay) and a solenoid is that hunk of stuff bolted to the
side of your starter that pushes the pinion gear out to
engage the ring gear. Further, the back end of the solenoid
is fitted with a contactor that closes power to the starter
motor only after pinion gear engagement is achieved.
If your starter switch contacts on the key-switch are driving
an S704-1 relay, then this coil needs just over 100 milliamps
of operating current. Your experiment with the 1A fuse confirms
this. If you're blowing fuses, then some transient fault condition
exists in either the wiring between starter switch and boost
relay or within the starter switch itself. Instant blowing
of the 15A fuse you cited is a good confirmation of this.
Your STARTER fuse should function well with 1A driving a
piece of 22AWG wire that runs through the BAT terminal of
your keyswitch to the starter boost relay illustrated in
Figure Z-22.
I'm mystified about the "firewall mounted" starter
solenoid . . . are you speaking about the S704-1
relay here? If, when you installed the S704-1 relay
you eliminated a firewall mounted contactor as Z-22
suggests, then we can zero in on the transient fault
that is taking the STARTER fuse to ground and causing
it to open.
>Here are a few ideas that I haven't been able to confirm, but I think
>might be true.
>If I don't move the prop, after a fuse blows, the next fuse will blow too,
>probably.
>A blown fuse is a little more likely to happen when the engine is hot, but
>not always.
>It happens easier if I have to crank the starter for quite awhile, I can't
>tell when exactly it pops though.
>
>Early on I checked the voltage at the switch during cranking and it will
>drop to 10V before too much cranking. I haven't checked it for a couple of
>years. I am on my second battery too.
>
>Also, the possibility exists that the keyed switch is the culprit, but I
>won't replace it to test that idea. I would rather rewire to two toggle
>switches and a starter button. I'm saving that action for later.
It does suggest an experiment. Wire in a temporary
push button of any size with a new 22AWG wire from the
fuse block through the push button and out to the S704-1
relay. Use a 5A or less fuse in the fuseblock. See how
this runs for awhile. If the fuseblowing event goes away,
all this leaves is the keyswitch and wires downstream of
the keyswitch that you've eliminated by the experiment.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Sokolowski" <air.peter(at)googlemail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Mag and Lightspeed ignition grounding |
Hello all,
I am wiring my panel and actually the ignition switch, contacting the mag
and the Lightspeed to the latter.
My question is the following: As to my best knowledge the shield from the
Mag wire should not be contacted with ground at the switch, the shield from
the Lightspeed cable will be contacted to ground at the switch. Is this
working (long term), as the Mag will be shortened with the ground from the
Lightspeed ?
Or may I contact the ground from the mag together with the ground from the
Lightspeed (ground loop !) ?
Thanks for your help
Peter Lancair 360 (85%)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Sokolowski" <air.peter(at)googlemail.com> |
| Subject: | Circuit for automatic fuel pump engageing |
Hello all,
I am looking for some hints / circuits for automatic switching of my fuel
transfer pumps. As it is standard with the Lancair 360, I have two wing
tanks and a header tank. As I do not want to switch on the transfer pumps
manually every 30 minutes, probably forgetting it at all, I want to build in
an "intelligent" circuit doing it for me.
My set up is, that I have a capacitive level sensor in the header tank,
providing 0 to 5 Volt depending on the fuel level. In addition, I have an
independent sensor at about 15 gallons which will give me a last warning in
case the circuit or transfer pumps isnot working.
Does someone already went through this experiment and is willing to share
his wiring drawings with me ? Even it is possible to develop something like
that by my one, one does not have to re-invent the wheel.
Thanks in advance,
Peter Lancair 360 (85%)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mdharfst(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: Starter Solenoid fuse blows, ideas? |
Thanks for the responses.
Ralph wrote:
>>When the fuse blows what does it look like? vaporized and black?<<<
The blown fuses are vaporized, like a overload would cause. I do have all the diodes
installed in the circuit.
Todd wrote:
>>>Chaffing at the firewall feed-though, Chaffing ONLY occurred when the engine
was running!<<
Hmmmm, that could be a source of an intermittent fault. I dont have a fat wire
going through the FW. It is a custom made, through connection. I will go over
all the other wiring again though just to make sure.
Terry
Yes, the solenoid from Skytec on the starter motor itself could be the problem.
I may have to swap it out. I did a solenoid replacement early on with a rebuilt
solenoid when I accidentally stripped a copper bolt on the original. Skytec
may have given me a slightly faulty replacement part. Ill put this on the list.
Bob N
I am sorry for any confusion, maybe some of my terminology is not exact.
I originally wired my plane based on Z-11 (an earlier version/number really) with
the starter circuit based on the original Z-22. I used an S704 relay mounted
on the front of the firewall. When that relay failed after 160 hrs I went over
the schematic carefully. I think I understand the schematic, in fact Im the
guy that had several off-list emails with you that resulted in the revised Z-22
drawing published in June 05 with all the right diodes in the right places.
Anybody can pull up the archives from June 05 to read the discussions in greater
detail.
In those emails I proposed using a heavier duty contactor/relay/solenoid to replace
the S704. Your response was: You COULD replace the S704 with a HEAVIER duty
still device like a starter contactor, but it's not necessary. Try the NEW
Z-22 and see what it does for you. Since I live close to Vans I already had their
starter relay version by the time you replied so I went ahead and used it.
In their catalog this is referred to as a Starter Solenoid, intermittent duty
relay for the starter motor and in my installation it is on the firewall. I am
not referring to the big honking monster that is on the Skytec starter motor.
Again, I apologize for any terminology confusion.
I like the idea of jumping around the keyswitch with a starter button to test the
keyswitch. Unfortunately with a frequency of once or twice a year it will take
a long time to know for sure. I know your feeling about keyswitches and Im
beginning to feel the same way. Maybe what I need to do is come over from the
dark side and rewire to a couple of toggles and a pushbutton. That will probably
be a winter project. What I am doing in the short term is to put a 30A fuse
in the fuse block position and wire a 15A CB in series with the fuse. Now I
can see when the CB blows and just reset it. In a month or so Ill replace the
15A CB with a 5A CB and see what happens.
There are some good suggestions here, thanks everyone. Any others to add to the
list?
Mike Harfst
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Starter Solenoid fuse blows, ideas? |
7/9/2007
Hello Terry, You wrote: "C-1's job is to energize C-2. The fuse that blows
feels the draw from both C-1 and C-2."
I am a bit confused by these two sentences.
I thought that coil C-1's job, when the starter switch is closed, is to move
the slug that then closes the main contacts of that contactor. Then the
electricity flowing through that contactor's main contacts is the
electricity that will flow on through coil C-2 and cause its slug to move
and both engage the starter pinion gear and close its main contacts to
provide electricity to turn the starter motor.
See Figure 6 here http://aeroelectric.com/articles/strtctr.pdf
If my thinking is correct then the fuse that blows would not feel the
additional electrical draw from coil C-2 because that draw is coming through
the main contacts of the contactor served by coil C-1 and not through coil
C-1 itself.
Comment?
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
From: "Terry Miles" <terrence_miles(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Starter Solenoid fuse blows, ideas?
Mike,
I am only a Saturday afternoon mechanic. Take the following as "off the top
of my head" ideas.
Unless I missed it, you didn't mention about the coil on the starter motor.
Without looking at your system, it is likely your B&C "starter solenoid"
actually uses about 1 amp max to energize another coil that is bolted to the
starter motor. I'll call that second coil C-2 so we are both sure which
component we are talking about. C-2's job like any coil is to close the big
juice contactors so current at 150 amps maybe can go from the batt to the
starter motor. C2 is also responsible to throw the pinion gear into the fly
wheel and keep it that way until you let off on the starter button. C-1's
job is to energize C-2. The fuse that blows feels the draw from both C-1 and
C-2.
Your comment about having to move the prop or it blows a 2nd fuse makes me
want to investigate C-2 the coil on the skytec. Skytec will sell you
another coil for about $5 if they don't just out and out give you one from
stock. http://www.skytecair.com/ They are real good about answering tech
questions there too. If you call have model and serial # ready.
The C-2 casing is held on the starter motor with a couple of screws and the
guts can get swapped out just as easy. Look around at your ring gear and
the starter gears and see if you see any scoring. The pinion doesn't thrust
into the gears, or has some other mechanical problem the mech load creates
an amp draw that can eat a fuse--and be a literal roulette wheel like
problem that only happens some of the time.
Hope this leads you to a couple of ideas more. Good luck
Terry Miles
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CardinalNSB(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Source for LED's |
I want to get a real basic annunciator field approved, using LED's.
The ones from Radio Shack work fine and fit.
My ap mechanic is ok with the setup, except for no documentation on the
LED's.
What would anyone suggest as far as sourcing and documentation on the LED's?
Are there any reasonable sources for a Mil-spec LED, or even a SAE LED bulb?
Thanks, Skip
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | Source for LED's |
I would think that as long as the device was supplemental and did not
replace any required equipment, that field approval would be pretty
automatic, concerned only with current draw and fusing. Thank God for
experimental aviation, that we can leave all this garbage behind us.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
CardinalNSB(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 10:43 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Source for LED's
I want to get a real basic annunciator field approved, using LED's.
The ones from Radio Shack work fine and fit.
My ap mechanic is ok with the setup, except for no documentation on the
LED's.
What would anyone suggest as far as sourcing and documentation on the
LED's?
Are there any reasonable sources for a Mil-spec LED, or even a SAE LED
bulb?
Thanks, Skip
_____
See what's free at AOL.com
<http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
'lectric Bob:
I'm having trouble setting out the basics. I am using B&C's braid
strip (11-1/2" long) to join Firewall Ground (big Bolt on Froest of Tabs) to
engine block mounting bolt on Rotax 914 - a rare possible spot in the
distance.
The $10 voltmeter says "7.3 Ohms" give or take - and I wonder if
that is in the ball park in view of the braid length - otherwise it's FW to
eng mount which may be worse......
Best of regards
Ferg
Europa A064 914 mono
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terry Miles" <terrence_miles(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Starter Solenoid fuse blows, ideas? |
Hi Mike,
The article is certainly a help because it causes us to refine between us
what you are asking and what I am suggesting.
Look at figure 6 in Bob's article. The contactor shown there is the C-2
solenoid. Look at it's coil. The (+) power it takes to energize the C-2
coil comes from C-1 main contactor. Starter motor solenoids are usually (+)
triggered and have their own ground.
Now, is your C-1 main contactor input line fused? Does the C-1 coil require
a (-) or a (+) to energize? If it's a (+), is that source fused? Is there
a jumper from the (+) of the C-1 coil to the input contactor? How is C-2
wired? Remember besides being a solenoid is also has to runs the pinion.
I am sorry to be adding any confusion here. I should have said this: If
your C-1 output line is fuse protected and goes only to provide the (+) for
the C-2 coil, then both draw from that fuse. If your pinion-to-flywheel
mechanics are at issue somehow with bad tooth or a rough meshing somewhere
then maybe that is your sometimes high current draw that's blows a fuse.
When you never mentioned C-2 in your first post I thought I toss it out
there for you to consider.
What you wrote (below) would be correct if the (+) end of the C-2's coil and
the C-2 main contactor were jumper wired together. Likely they are not.
Also you wrote: "...both engage the starter pinion gear and close its main
contacts to provide electricity to turn the starter motor." It provides a
path for the electricity to turn the starter motor. There's a difference.
The starter motor demand itself is unfused and it routes from the battery
thru the C-2 contactors and then to the starter motor.
Your starter on/off switch is likely fused at 10 amps this to carry C-1 and
C-2 holding coils and the pinion trusting current demands from C-2. The
heavy wire from battery to starter is not fused. Without seeing your system
it would be possible to wire C-2 into that unfused circuit and jumper the
main contactor to the coil, but I do not think that is not commonly done.
I am sure you know this but I want to add that C-1 is the not the battery
master switch. We could call that on C-zero! We are only talking about the
starter circuitry.
I hope this helps.
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
bakerocb(at)cox.net
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 9:36 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Starter Solenoid fuse blows, ideas?
7/9/2007
Hello Terry, You wrote: "C-1's job is to energize C-2. The fuse that blows
feels the draw from both C-1 and C-2."
I am a bit confused by these two sentences.
I thought that coil C-1's job, when the starter switch is closed, is to move
the slug that then closes the main contacts of that contactor. Then the
electricity flowing through that contactor's main contacts is the
electricity that will flow on through coil C-2 and cause its slug to move
and both engage the starter pinion gear and close its main contacts to
provide electricity to turn the starter motor.
See Figure 6 here http://aeroelectric.com/articles/strtctr.pdf
If my thinking is correct then the fuse that blows would not feel the
additional electrical draw from coil C-2 because that draw is coming through
the main contacts of the contactor served by coil C-1 and not through coil
C-1 itself.
Comment?
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
From: "Terry Miles" <terrence_miles(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Starter Solenoid fuse blows, ideas?
Mike,
I am only a Saturday afternoon mechanic. Take the following as "off the top
of my head" ideas.
Unless I missed it, you didn't mention about the coil on the starter motor.
Without looking at your system, it is likely your B&C "starter solenoid"
actually uses about 1 amp max to energize another coil that is bolted to the
starter motor. I'll call that second coil C-2 so we are both sure which
component we are talking about. C-2's job like any coil is to close the big
juice contactors so current at 150 amps maybe can go from the batt to the
starter motor. C2 is also responsible to throw the pinion gear into the fly
wheel and keep it that way until you let off on the starter button. C-1's
job is to energize C-2. The fuse that blows feels the draw from both C-1 and
C-2.
Your comment about having to move the prop or it blows a 2nd fuse makes me
want to investigate C-2 the coil on the skytec. Skytec will sell you
another coil for about $5 if they don't just out and out give you one from
stock. http://www.skytecair.com/ They are real good about answering tech
questions there too. If you call have model and serial # ready.
The C-2 casing is held on the starter motor with a couple of screws and the
guts can get swapped out just as easy. Look around at your ring gear and
the starter gears and see if you see any scoring. The pinion doesn't thrust
into the gears, or has some other mechanical problem the mech load creates
an amp draw that can eat a fuse--and be a literal roulette wheel like
problem that only happens some of the time.
Hope this leads you to a couple of ideas more. Good luck
Terry Miles
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Source for LED's |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Mini and bayonet bulbs can be substituted with LEDs from:
http://www.ledtronics.com/
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123070#123070
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: FW-Eng ground |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
> The $10 voltmeter says "7.3 Ohms" give or take - and I wonder if
> that is in the ball park in view of the braid length - otherwise it's FW to
> eng mount which may be worse......Best of regards Ferg
Ferg,
7.3 Ohms is not even close to reasonable. You want 0.0073 Ohms maybe.
Your meter won't measure it. Measuring very low resistances is not for the faint-hearted.
Basically you should run high current through the part and measure
the voltage drop. This is done quickly (often by a pulse) because the part changes
resistance due to heating. Then R equals I/E.
Measuring very high resistances is hard too. They use "meggers" which apply kilovolts,
then they measure current through the part. Cool.
The engine ground strap is a needless weak point. Some improvement is possible.
"I have a truly marvellous proof of this proposition which this margin is too
narrow to contain."
"No one travelling on a business trip would be missed if he failed to arrive."
- Thorstein Veblen
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123094#123094
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ivor Phillips" <ivor.phillips(at)ntlworld.com> |
| Subject: | Re: FW-Eng ground |
Hi Ferg
I ran a welding cable through the ring mount to one of the two bolt
holes just below where the vacuum pump is fitted, There is good
continuity back to the forest of tabs, and a relatively short cable run,
but long enough to allow for engine movement,
Regards
Ivor
________________________________________________________________________________
I would like to hear from anyone who has implemented this diag
successfully. I am working on a Subaru with two batteries, one
alternator and two fuel pumps. I would like to hear about your could of
done, should of done, could do better next time etc. How many gotchas
are in the design and so on. Pictures would be great if you have them.
Some of us pilots are pessimists even before we wake up!
Thanks,
Glenn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net> |
Many others out there are going with Z-19 so please share your experiences with
the list. Bob can't improve things if he doesn't know about it!
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Limbo
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of longg(at)pjm.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 4:11 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-19
I would like to hear from anyone who has implemented this diag
successfully. I am working on a Subaru with two batteries, one
alternator and two fuel pumps. I would like to hear about your could of
done, should of done, could do better next time etc. How many gotchas
are in the design and so on. Pictures would be great if you have them.
Some of us pilots are pessimists even before we wake up!
Thanks,
Glenn
________________________________________________________________________________
I am going with the Z-19 Rear batteries in an RV-8 with the 2.5 SC engine
with Supercharger.
My question is why not be able to operate the second Fuel Pump from either
battery?
Seems like it would give another option for keeping the fuel flowing. Mine
will be wired this way.
Thanks to Bob N. for all he does.
Paul
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Abrahamson <dave(at)abrahamson.net> |
| Subject: | Garmin 430 transmitter problem |
My 430 was transmitting fine for the first 28 hours of my phase I
period, but at the end of the last flight was inaudible to approach.
After flight, I pulled and re-docked the 430 and compared its
transmissions to the SL30's in the same panel (same freq, same volume
level, same type antennas, same antenna location on the airplane,
engine off) and got a "like the SL30 but scratchy" from one station,
and "4 by 4 on the SL30 and 3 by 3 on the 430" from another. Maybe
significantly, the headset side tone from the 430 is about half the
volume of the SL30's, without touching settings on the headset or
GMA340, obviously. All other 430 functions work fine, to include
reception and VOR/ILS freqs.
Has anyone had a similar/identical problem with their 430, and if so,
what solutions were successful?
Thanks,
David
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com> |
Hi Glenn,
I don't know about the diagram number, but your items match mine and I
did wire things
very closely to the AeroElectric diagrams. Absolutely no problems so
far, but for
one early on, not having a contactor replacing my internal starter relay
power.
The link below perhaps offers a different schematic view.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/primary-wiring.gif
Lots of images on the engine page and electrical page
Good luck,
Larry McFarland 601HDS - Subaru power, one alternator and 4 fuel pumps
at www.macsmachine.com
longg(at)pjm.com wrote:
>
>
> I would like to hear from anyone who has implemented this diag
> successfully. I am working on a Subaru with two batteries, one
> alternator and two fuel pumps. I would like to hear about your could of
> done, should of done, could do better next time etc. How many gotchas
> are in the design and so on. Pictures would be great if you have them.
>
> Some of us pilots are pessimists even before we wake up!
>
> Thanks,
> Glenn
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Reynolds <rvreynolds(at)macs.net> |
| Subject: | Re: FW-Eng ground |
Did you "zero" the ohm meter? Are the batteries fresh? Measure a
piece of 18 awg to insure the meter is reading correctly.
Richard Reynolds
On Jul 9, 2007, at 1:54 PM, Fergus Kyle wrote:
>
> 'lectric Bob:
> I'm having trouble setting out the basics. I am using B&C's braid
> strip (11-1/2" long) to join Firewall Ground (big Bolt on Froest of
> Tabs) to
> engine block mounting bolt on Rotax 914 - a rare possible spot in the
> distance.
> The $10 voltmeter says "7.3 Ohms" give or take - and I wonder if
> that is in the ball park in view of the braid length - otherwise
> it's FW to
> eng mount which may be worse......
> Best of regards
> Ferg
> Europa A064 914 mono
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Garmin 430 transmitter problem |
| From: | Michael W Stewart <mike.stewart(at)us.ibm.com> |
I had a similar problem and spent 2 weeks on it. If there is seperate p
ower
to the VOR input, then the radio looks like it works, shows tx when
transmitting, but the transmissions are junk. In my case I could barely
be
heard by a plane next to me. Since your being heard, this may not be th
e
problem, but Id check it.
I finally broke down and took it to Stark avionics shop. They spent 4 h
ours
on it.
IT WAS THE COM FUSE!!!!
Geez:
Mike
David Abrahamson
<dave@abrahamson.
net>
To
Sent by: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
owner-aeroelectri
cc
c-list-server@mat
ronics.com Subj
ect
AeroElectric-List: Garmin 430
transmitter problem
07/10/2007 08:24
PM
Please respond to
aeroelectric-list
@matronics.com
My 430 was transmitting fine for the first 28 hours of my phase I
period, but at the end of the last flight was inaudible to approach.
After flight, I pulled and re-docked the 430 and compared its
transmissions to the SL30's in the same panel (same freq, same volume
level, same type antennas, same antenna location on the airplane,
engine off) and got a "like the SL30 but scratchy" from one station,
and "4 by 4 on the SL30 and 3 by 3 on the 430" from another. Maybe
significantly, the headset side tone from the 430 is about half the
volume of the SL30's, without touching settings on the headset or
GMA340, obviously. All other 430 functions work fine, to include
reception and VOR/ILS freqs.
Has anyone had a similar/identical problem with their 430, and if so,
what solutions were successful?
Thanks,
David
========================
============
========================
============
========================
============
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chad <avidflyerss(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Low transmit volume on Valcom 760 |
Hello all, new subscriber here looking for some helpful advice.
I'm finishing up my instrument panel and did some radio testing
tonight. I have a Valcom 760 radio hooked up to a fiberglass rod type
antenna. I can receive great, in fact I was picking up traffic in the
pattern at an airport about 40 miles north of here with the airplane in
my garage. That said, I switched to a known unused channel and tried
some transmitting (listening on my handheld about 15 feet away) but the
volume was almost inaudible. I had to practically shout into my headset
mic in order to really hear and understand anything. I've checked some
of the basics with the wiring and don't see anything obvious.
Anyone have any tips on what to check or what the problem might be? I'm
afraid that everyone will be able to hear me key the mic, but will
struggle understanding me with this low output volume.
Regards,
Chad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael T. Ice" <aurbo(at)ak.net> |
| Subject: | switching from Z-11 to Z-13 |
Hello,
I have already wired my aircraft with the Z-11 schematic. But now I am switching
to E-mags ( 1 P-Mag & 1 E-mag) and need to rewire towards the Z-13 schematic.
My questions are:
Can the 2-10 switch be used as the Dc Power master switch instead of the 2-3.
I see in the Z-13 the 5 A Fld Alt is on the other side of the switch. Why? Can
I just leave the 2-10 in place as wired in the Z-11 and will it work for the 2-3
in the Z-13?
I see the 2-10 switches in the Z-11 that were used for mag switches are now 2-5
in the Z-13. Is there any way to use the 2-10's, or are the 2-5's so different
that I have to use them?
Or should I just order the new switches from B&C and wire them in like the Z-13?
I also see that the mags in the Z-11 required shielded wire. It looks like the
E-Mags don't require shielded wire. Is that correct? Why?
Thank you,
Mike Ice
Anchorage, Alaska
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert Feldtman" <bobf(at)feldtman.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Low transmit volume on Valcom 760 |
Might be okay - Automatic gain control (AGC) on handheld may have cut down
the volume - try to talk to somebody a further distance away. check your
SWR. probably okay
bobf
On 7/11/07, Chad wrote:
>
>
> Hello all, new subscriber here looking for some helpful advice.
>
> I'm finishing up my instrument panel and did some radio testing
> tonight. I have a Valcom 760 radio hooked up to a fiberglass rod type
> antenna. I can receive great, in fact I was picking up traffic in the
> pattern at an airport about 40 miles north of here with the airplane in
> my garage. That said, I switched to a known unused channel and tried
> some transmitting (listening on my handheld about 15 feet away) but the
> volume was almost inaudible. I had to practically shout into my headset
> mic in order to really hear and understand anything. I've checked some
> of the basics with the wiring and don't see anything obvious.
>
> Anyone have any tips on what to check or what the problem might be? I'm
> afraid that everyone will be able to hear me key the mic, but will
> struggle understanding me with this low output volume.
>
> Regards,
>
> Chad
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Edward Christian <edchristian(at)knology.net> |
| Subject: | Switches, Warning Light, Avionics Ground |
I have three questions.
1. Would you please elaborate on the current philosophy concerning
the Left/Right mag switches. In the "book" you suggest 2-3 switches
(pg. 11-18) but in the Z-11 diagram and note 2 you use the 2-5 switches.
2. I am rewiring my plane per the Z-11 diagram. I am installing a
Grand Rapids EIS which has a warning light for all types of limits
including low/high voltage and high amp draw - is there any reason to
install the low/over voltage module?
3. I am planning on building an Avionics ground block. Is there a
more detailed explanation? Do you use a connector with solder cups on
back or just install all the female D-sub pins and solder to them? Do
you have any part numbers and where to order materials? (Say to build
fig. 18-14)
Thanks,
Ed
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Alan Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com> |
| Subject: | Switches, Warning Light, Avionics Ground |
I continue to see this post about ground blocks for avionics, so I figured
I'd chime in. I'll take some pictures of the ones that I've built, but for
now, I hope this description will work.
A) use a DB connector with solder cups
B) get a piece of double sided copper clad curcuit board material in 1/16"
thickness
C) cut the curcuit board material such that with a DB connector pressed onto
the edge of it that the outline of the remaining board will fit inside the
DB shell that you'll use.
D) now, just solder each solder cup onto the copper clad curcuit board
E) drill and mount the terminal with the larger grounding wire to anywhere
on the remaining area of the curcuit board making sure you use a conductive
type mounting arrangement so you capture conductivity from both sides of the
board
F) you'll need to size the wire between the circuit board and the ground
post to handle the amount of load of all the ground pins
There you have it, use the gender of your choice and the size of DB
connector based upon how many items you need to ground.
Hope this helps,
Frys (online) has most of the parts, or so should any major electronics
distributor (digikey, or Mouser). In my case, I just walked into a frys and
bought it all off the shelf.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward
Christian
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 8:51 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Switches, Warning Light, Avionics Ground
-->
I have three questions.
1. Would you please elaborate on the current philosophy concerning the
Left/Right mag switches. In the "book" you suggest 2-3 switches (pg. 11-18)
but in the Z-11 diagram and note 2 you use the 2-5 switches.
2. I am rewiring my plane per the Z-11 diagram. I am installing a Grand
Rapids EIS which has a warning light for all types of limits including
low/high voltage and high amp draw - is there any reason to install the
low/over voltage module?
3. I am planning on building an Avionics ground block. Is there a more
detailed explanation? Do you use a connector with solder cups on back or
just install all the female D-sub pins and solder to them? Do you have any
part numbers and where to order materials? (Say to build fig. 18-14)
Thanks,
Ed
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Abrahamson <dave(at)abrahamson.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Garmin 430 transmitter problem |
If it was the fuse, I don't understand why you were transmitting at
all. I will call Stark soon if I can't figure it out myself with the
list's help, but I was hoping the weak sidetone would be a helpful
clue. Thanks for your help. David
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "mikef" <mikefapex(at)gmail.com> |
I have a Z-19 switches usage clarification question. I am planning for this design
in a GEO/Suzuki powered aircraft.
I read the Z-19 diagram last night, I think I understand most of it.
The switches I've tried to
match them with their location on the diagram, and I think I've done
that. What I am not sure of is: which switches are used at aircraft
startup and/or flying? And is there more done with switches once the
engine is running?
I labeled the switches from left to right, A - H
A - #2 Fuel Pump
B - Secondary Power
C - Primary Power
D - Start
E - E-Bus Alt Feed
F - DC Pwr Master/Bat/Off - this is one I don't understand the purpose
of the three way position. When would you use what?
G - Alt Field - is this a circuit breaker? I did not find it on the
diagram. To be honest I'm not sure what 'Alternator Field' really means. Yes, I
am an noob.
H - Eng Bat Auto/On/Off - Again, not understanding the purpose of the
3 position switch.
My best guess for starting the aircraft would be the sequence: F to
Bat, C on, B on, Start
Clarification on these and their use is appreciated. Thanks,
Mike
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123402#123402
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Casey <glcasey(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Garmin 430 transmitter problem |
Is that a fuse internal to the radio? I seem to have the same
problem. My 430 receives just fine, but transmissions are virtually
non-existent.
Gary Casey
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 430 transmitter problem
> From: Michael W Stewart <mike.stewart(at)us.ibm.com>
>
>
> I had a similar problem and spent 2 weeks on it. If there is
> seperate p
> ower
> to the VOR input, then the radio looks like it works, shows tx when
> transmitting, but the transmissions are junk. In my case I could
> barely
> be
> heard by a plane next to me. Since your being heard, this may not
> be th
> e
> problem, but Id check it.
> I finally broke down and took it to Stark avionics shop. They spent
> 4 h
> ours
> on it.
> IT WAS THE COM FUSE!!!!
> Geez:
> Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Z-19 - Low Voltage Monitor Module - Purpose? |
| From: | "mikef" <mikefapex(at)gmail.com> |
Hi,
Can some explain the exact function of the relay output from the AEC9005 Low Voltage
Monitor Module in the Z-19 diagram?
Thanks,
Mike
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123431#123431
________________________________________________________________________________
Thanks Mike,
Agreed, I asked myself the same question when reading the diagram. I
would also like to see at least a dashed line showing the leads for the
two batteries. In a dual battery installation, the setup is not always
obvious. Thanks to others for their opinions and suggestions.
Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of mikef
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 11:02 AM
Subject: [Probable SPAM] AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-19
I have a Z-19 switches usage clarification question. I am planning for
this design in a GEO/Suzuki powered aircraft.
I read the Z-19 diagram last night, I think I understand most of it. The
switches I've tried to match them with their location on the diagram,
and I think I've done that. What I am not sure of is: which switches are
used at aircraft startup and/or flying? And is there more done with
switches once the engine is running?
I labeled the switches from left to right, A - H
A - #2 Fuel Pump
B - Secondary Power
C - Primary Power
D - Start
E - E-Bus Alt Feed
F - DC Pwr Master/Bat/Off - this is one I don't understand the purpose
of the three way position. When would you use what?
G - Alt Field - is this a circuit breaker? I did not find it on the
diagram. To be honest I'm not sure what 'Alternator Field' really means.
Yes, I am an noob.
H - Eng Bat Auto/On/Off - Again, not understanding the purpose of the 3
position switch.
My best guess for starting the aircraft would be the sequence: F to Bat,
C on, B on, Start
Clarification on these and their use is appreciated. Thanks,
Mike
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123402#123402
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson(at)pobox.com> |
Hi Bob,
I was just curious if you had had any time to explore any of Plane-Power's
internally regulated alternators on that fancy alternator stand?
Thanks,
/\/elson
Austin, TX
On Mon, 29 Jan 2007, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> I'm pleased to inform the List that I've already received
> a response to an inquiry I mailed to Steve Klodd at Plane Power
> this morning.
>
> A copy of the exchange has been posted at:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Alternators/Plane_Power/70129A_Plane-Power_SKlodd.pdf
>
> In a nutshell, Steve tells us that the 5A breaker illustrated in
> their wiring diagram at . . .
>
> http://plane-power.com/images/AL12_EI70%20Wiring.pdf
>
> . . . does carry field excitation current. Further, the
> OV protection module does pull down on this breaker to
> "crowbar" it open and bring a misbehaving alternator
> to heel.
>
> Further, this information confirms that operating the
> "Alternator Field" switch provides any-time, any
> conditions, any-reason, zero-risk ON/OFF control of
> the alternator which is consistent with conventions
> adopted for engine driven power sources on aircraft
> since day one.
>
> I'm pleased to make Steve's acquaintance and will
> endeavor to expand on this initiative. I'm equally
> pleased to know that my this particular product would
> live and operate happily in any system I would craft.
> I confidently endorse Plane-Power's operating philosophy
> for this product.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------
> ( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
> ( what ever you do must be exercised )
> ( EVERY day . . . )
> ( R. L. Nuckolls III )
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
--
~~ ** ~~ Research has shown that Mondays account for 1/7th of your time ~~ ** ~~
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Garmin 430 transmitter problem |
| From: | Michael W Stewart <mike.stewart(at)us.ibm.com> |
No in my case it was a fuse to the com input.
No fuses nside.
Mike
Gary Casey
To
Sent by: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
owner-aeroelectri
cc
c-list-server@mat
ronics.com Subj
ect
AeroElectric-List: Re: Garmin 4
30
transmitter problem
07/12/2007 11:27
AM
Please respond to
aeroelectric-list
@matronics.com
et>
Is that a fuse internal to the radio? I seem to have the same
problem. My 430 receives just fine, but transmissions are virtually
non-existent.
Gary Casey
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 430 transmitter problem
> From: Michael W Stewart <mike.stewart(at)us.ibm.com>
>
>
> I had a similar problem and spent 2 weeks on it. If there is
> seperate p
> ower
> to the VOR input, then the radio looks like it works, shows tx when
> transmitting, but the transmissions are junk. In my case I could
> barely
> be
> heard by a plane next to me. Since your being heard, this may not
> be th
> e
> problem, but Id check it.
> I finally broke down and took it to Stark avionics shop. They spent
> 4 h
> ours
> on it.
> IT WAS THE COM FUSE!!!!
> Geez:
> Mike
========================
============
========================
============
========================
============
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dennis Jones" <djones(at)northboone.net> |
Bob
Would the steel tubes in the back of a tube and fabric airplane preclude an individule
from mounting a rod type (or any other type) com antenna inside the tail
of the aircraft? Would it help or hender the ground plane requirements?
Thanks again
Dennis
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123483#123483
________________________________________________________________________________
Larry,
Great job on the Zodiac - what a huge amount of work! You've got some
heavy duty pitot plumbing there! As you said, I see a few variations on
Bob's theme, but a job well done. I cannot see the add'l fuel pumps on
this schematic? I would be interested to see how you laid the wiring out
for them. I'm assuming you are only running 1 at a time?
Thanks
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
LarryMcFarland
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19
-->
Hi Glenn,
I don't know about the diagram number, but your items match mine and I
did wire things
very closely to the AeroElectric diagrams. Absolutely no problems so
far, but for
one early on, not having a contactor replacing my internal starter relay
power.
The link below perhaps offers a different schematic view.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/primary-wiring.gif
Lots of images on the engine page and electrical page
Good luck,
Larry McFarland 601HDS - Subaru power, one alternator and 4 fuel pumps
at www.macsmachine.com
longg(at)pjm.com wrote:
>
>
> I would like to hear from anyone who has implemented this diag
> successfully. I am working on a Subaru with two batteries, one
> alternator and two fuel pumps. I would like to hear about your could
> of done, should of done, could do better next time etc. How many
> gotchas are in the design and so on. Pictures would be great if you
> have them.
>
> Some of us pilots are pessimists even before we wake up!
>
> Thanks,
> Glenn
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
I hope not....At least 2 for Take off and landing.
Frank
Soobed Zodiac 400 hours sold
Lyc'd RV7a 170 hours
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
longg(at)pjm.com
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 2:35 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-19
Larry,
Great job on the Zodiac - what a huge amount of work! You've got some
heavy duty pitot plumbing there! As you said, I see a few variations on
Bob's theme, but a job well done. I cannot see the add'l fuel pumps on
this schematic? I would be interested to see how you laid the wiring out
for them. I'm assuming you are only running 1 at a time?
Thanks
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
LarryMcFarland
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19
-->
Hi Glenn,
I don't know about the diagram number, but your items match mine and I
did wire things very closely to the AeroElectric diagrams. Absolutely
no problems so far, but for one early on, not having a contactor
replacing my internal starter relay
power.
The link below perhaps offers a different schematic view.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/primary-wiring.gif
Lots of images on the engine page and electrical page Good luck,
Larry McFarland 601HDS - Subaru power, one alternator and 4 fuel pumps
at www.macsmachine.com
longg(at)pjm.com wrote:
>
>
> I would like to hear from anyone who has implemented this diag
> successfully. I am working on a Subaru with two batteries, one
> alternator and two fuel pumps. I would like to hear about your could
> of done, should of done, could do better next time etc. How many
> gotchas are in the design and so on. Pictures would be great if you
> have them.
>
> Some of us pilots are pessimists even before we wake up!
>
> Thanks,
> Glenn
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chad <avidflyerss(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Low transmit volume on Valcom 760 |
I don't have access to SWR but I went further away with the handheld
(couple hundred feet I guess) and it's the same thing. You can hear and
it's relatively clear, just really quiet.
chad
Subject: Re: Low transmit volume on Valcom 760
From: Robert Feldtman (bobf(at)feldtman.com)
Date: Thu Jul 12 - 3:57 AM
Might be okay - Automatic gain control (AGC) on handheld may have
cut down
the volume - try to talk to somebody a further distance away. check
your
SWR. probably okay
bobf
On 7/11/07, Chad wrote:
>
>
>
> Hello all, new subscriber here looking for some helpful advice.
>
> I'm finishing up my instrument panel and did some radio testing
> tonight. I have a Valcom 760 radio hooked up to a fiberglass rod
type
> antenna. I can receive great, in fact I was picking up traffic
in the
> pattern at an airport about 40 miles north of here with the
airplane in
> my garage. That said, I switched to a known unused channel and tried
> some transmitting (listening on my handheld about 15 feet away)
but the
> volume was almost inaudible. I had to practically shout into my
headset
> mic in order to really hear and understand anything. I've
checked some
> of the basics with the wiring and don't see anything obvious.
>
> Anyone have any tips on what to check or what the problem might
be? I'm
> afraid that everyone will be able to hear me key the mic, but will
> struggle understanding me with this low output volume.
>
> Regards,
>
> Chad
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com> |
Hi Glenn,
The pumps are labeled Aux L & Aux R on the switch diagrams right above
the buses.
The master (main bus) and boost (essential bus) are both run on takeoff
and plumbed in parallel. The Aux L and Aux R
pumps (essential bus) are individually switched to pump from the wing
tanks to the header as needed thru a fuel selector valve.
The labeled connections feeding back thru the console give away where
they are going and they are all Facet 105
pumps at 5 or 7 amps. The Aux pumps on the wing tanks are wired to a
single 5 amp fuse in the main bus. I've labeled the
pumps, but find that colored shrink wrap on the switch handles, yellow
for main and boost and blue for aux pumps
helps find the right switches faster than trying to read small lettering
with my progressive-lens glasses. Anything outside the
fuselage has a ground wire back to the forest-of-tabs ground on the
firewall. I never run more than one wing pump at a time.
Note: Header tank overflow was plumbed to drain at the right wing joint
as I don't like fuel or fumes anywhere near the engine exhaust. It's not
something perhaps you were concerned with just now, but I thought it
worth noting.
You should be able to make out the pictorial arrangement for all that's
there, sometimes not so obvious.
Thanks for the compliments. It was a lot of work, but I miss it now and
must progress to a next project.
Larry
longg(at)pjm.com wrote:
>
> Larry,
> Great job on the Zodiac - what a huge amount of work! You've got some
> heavy duty pitot plumbing there! As you said, I see a few variations on
> Bob's theme, but a job well done. I cannot see the add'l fuel pumps on
> this schematic? I would be interested to see how you laid the wiring out
> for them. I'm assuming you are only running 1 at a time?
>
> Thanks
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> LarryMcFarland
> Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 8:50 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19
>
>
> -->
>
> Hi Glenn,
> I don't know about the diagram number, but your items match mine and I
> did wire things
> very closely to the AeroElectric diagrams. Absolutely no problems so
> far, but for
> one early on, not having a contactor replacing my internal starter relay
>
> power.
> The link below perhaps offers a different schematic view.
> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/primary-wiring.gif
> Lots of images on the engine page and electrical page
> Good luck,
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS - Subaru power, one alternator and 4 fuel pumps
> at www.macsmachine.com
>
>
> longg(at)pjm.com wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I would like to hear from anyone who has implemented this diag
>> successfully. I am working on a Subaru with two batteries, one
>> alternator and two fuel pumps. I would like to hear about your could
>> of done, should of done, could do better next time etc. How many
>> gotchas are in the design and so on. Pictures would be great if you
>> have them.
>>
>> Some of us pilots are pessimists even before we wake up!
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Glenn
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D Wysong <hdwysong(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | best contactor reliability -- mechanical, solid state, |
or manual?
I have a remotely operated application where the loss of the
master battery contactor will result in the loss of
data/money/time (... and dignity!). My baseline design
resembles a "Z" diagram (thanks Bob!) and I planned to use a
mechanical, continuous duty contactor like the S-701 from
June 21, 2007 - July 13, 2007
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ha