AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-hw

May 26, 2008 - June 11, 2008



Date: May 26, 2008
Hey Bob, were you referring to me as joe-pilot? LOL Ok, to keep me from stubbing my toe, how about the attached schematic? It features circuit breakers within reach of the pilot, dual alternate feed for the essential bus, relays to isolate power from the cockpit, one power wire between engine compartment and essential bus with fusible links to protect it. Any suggestions, comments, or improvements are welcome. Joe Gores -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184867#184867 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/aeroelectric_z_19aa1_500.gif ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2008
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: memory versus tape
Eric, It is so nice that the FAA is so customer oriented. This is why the following saying exists: "Hi, we're from the FAA, and we're here to help." If you haven't heard it, it's just a matter of time. Henador Titzof ----- Original Message ---- From: Eric M. Jones <emjones(at)charter.net> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 9:23:43 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: memory versus tape Don't try to look cool and pretend you know what you're doing if you are uncertain of the instructions, just say "Request Progressive Taxi Instructions." Progressive being the key word. Remember in all cases YOU are the customer who is to be served, not the ground controller. Remember "Confess, Communicate, Comply." always trumps, "Hold my beer...Watch this!" -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2008
From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Faraday Cage
Henador, I am not surprised!! I had never heard of this until a couple of days ago, and I have been around for quite some time Roger Roger, I am willing to bet that you did NOT hear that from an FAA guy. I have never read that in the FARs. Just because I've never read it, though, doesn't mean it doesn't exist; however, I 've never heard it before, and there are many aircraft manufacturers out there like Cirrus, Diamond, etc. who have never it either. My experimental airplane is a composite fiberglass/foam airplane, and it's never heard of it. I will be very surprised if anyone on this email list will be able to quote a FAR that says so. Sounds like a good myth in the making to me. Henador Titzof ----- Original Message ---- I recently heard that all aircraft to be flown IFR must have a Faraday Cage in the structure. In other words it must be surrounded with a conductive material in the skin. This is to conduct static electricity. Does anyone know anything about this?? Or is it another myth? If there are any regulations, can you please point me to them. Thanks for your input. Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
Subject: Faraday Cage
Date: May 26, 2008
Yes and no. In the certified world there are more hurdles needed to be jumped than in our experimental neighborhood. I believe that in order for a certified airplane to be IFR legal, it must be able to take a lightning strike with minimal damage. The e-glass manufacturers do this by imbedding a copper/aluminum mesh in the skin of the aircraft. While this might be a 'Faraday Cage', it's purpose is to provide an electrical path for a lightning strike. This is only an issue with glass airframes. Bruce <http://www.glasair.org/> www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ROGER & JEAN CURTIS Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 12:01 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Faraday Cage Henador, I am not surprised!! I had never heard of this until a couple of days ago, and I have been around for quite some time Roger Roger, I am willing to bet that you did NOT hear that from an FAA guy. I have never read that in the FARs. Just because I've never read it, though, doesn't mean it doesn't exist; however, I 've never heard it before, and there are many aircraft manufacturers out there like Cirrus, Diamond, etc. who have never it either. My experimental airplane is a composite fiberglass/foam airplane, and it's never heard of it. I will be very surprised if anyone on this email list will be able to quote a FAR that says so. Sounds like a good myth in the making to me. Henador Titzof ----- Original Message ---- I recently heard that all aircraft to be flown IFR must have a Faraday Cage in the structure. In other words it must be surrounded with a conductive material in the skin. This is to conduct static electricity. Does anyone know anything about this?? Or is it another myth? If there are any regulations, can you please point me to them. Thanks for your input. Roger http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Faraday Cage
Date: May 26, 2008
From: "John Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
Time to add St Elmo's Fire to the discussion and the principals of an Air Capacitor. All aircraft should address an effective path to discharge Static buildup. It is when they arc through a control surface hinge or bearing that it will get your attention. That is long after it exceeds the aeroelectric discussion pool. I have some great pictures of composite surfaces that were fried for lack of a dissipator wick and an effective circuit path. I think it's a myth like flying with aluminum foil on your head. John Cox From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ROGER & JEAN CURTIS Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 5:33 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Faraday Cage I recently heard that all aircraft to be flown IFR must have a Faraday Cage in the structure. In other words it must be surrounded with a conductive material in the skin. This is to conduct static electricity. Does anyone know anything about this?? Or is it another myth? If there are any regulations, can you please point me to them. Thanks for your input. Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: May 26, 2008
Subject: Re: memory versus tape
Good Morning Henador, You may think you are being facetious, but there has been a major change in direction at the FAA. They are now directed by their superiors to be the enemy. Most FAA personal are just as a enamored of aviation as we are, but their jobs depend on doing what they are told. When the head of the aviation subcommittee tells them to be bad guys, what do you think they are going to do? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 5/26/2008 10:43:22 A.M. Central Daylight Time, henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com writes: Eric, It is so nice that the FAA is so customer oriented. This is why the following saying exists: "Hi, we're from the FAA, and we're here to help." If you haven't heard it, it's just a matter of time. Henador Titzof **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Henry Trzeciakowski" <hammer408(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: E-Bus Diode & Fuseable LInk Question
Date: May 26, 2008
Bob: I purchased from B & C their E-Bus diode with 15 watt heatsink and installed between Main Bus & E-Bus per your Z diagram. What I'm confused about is that their wiring diagram has 1 wire originating from a fast-tab on the diode to the E-Bus - NO PROBLEM SO FAR: then 2 wires from 2 seperate fast-tabs joining together then proceeding to a Circuit Breaker then to the Main Bus....Sooooo I'm a little confused about the Circuit Breaker and why there are 2 attach points on the diode in the first place.!!! None of your Z diagrams show a CB between the Main & E Bus, and why 2 attach points on the diode joining forces? Second questions:: Im installing a Heavy E-Bus architecture, per Z-32. Currently my E-Bus load is around 12 amps...architecture is: 18g F-link at E-Bus---14 awg---S704-1 relay---14 awg---10amp fuse at Battery Bus. According to B & C, fuseable links are for low power, 10 amps or less.....so should I eliminate the fuseable link and directly wire to #10 stud on E-Bus OR wire to a 10 or 15 amp fuse on the E-bus - and increase the Battery Bus from 10 amp to 15 amp? Thanks Henry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MaxNr(at)aol.com
Date: May 26, 2008
Subject: Faraday Cage
It sure looks like they intended that when they wrote FAR Part 23. Go to the FAA home page and click on FAR 23.867 (c) (2). Bob Dingley ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2008
From: "Walter Fellows" <walter.fellows(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Faraday Cage
This seems to be a requirement for certified aircraft, for example the DA 20 is not certified for IFR flight and does not have the cage but the DA 40 is and does have the cage. The Columbia had to add the cage in adapting the ES to the certified Columbia. The farady cage for composite aircraft is created with a copper or aluminum mesh in the outer layer of the shells, electrically bonding the parts of the exterior together (such as aileron to wing skin), adding a ground plane and electrically isolating the control tubes and cables from the cockpit. You can read more about it in Martin Hollmann's book Advanced Aircraft Design. On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 5:33 AM, ROGER & JEAN CURTIS wrote: > > > I recently heard that all aircraft to be flown IFR must have a Faraday Cage > in the structure. In other words it must be surrounded with a conductive > material in the skin. This is to conduct static electricity. > > > Does anyone know anything about this?? Or is it another myth? If there are > any regulations, can you please point me to them. > > > Thanks for your input. > > > Roger > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Faraday Cage
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 26, 2008
Metal mesh in the wing skin does not constitute a faraday cage. Different purpose and different design -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184928#184928 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2008
From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Faraday Cage
Part 23 deals with certified aircraft. Experimental aircraft, such as the wooden one, which I am building, are not required to meet these specs. That being said, it is not a bad idea to try to build an aircraft that is as safe as possible. Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of MaxNr(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 4:57 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Faraday Cage It sure looks like they intended that when they wrote FAR Part 23. Go to the FAA home page and click on FAR 23.867 (c) (2). Bob Dingley ************** ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2008
From: "Sam Hoskins" <sam.hoskins(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Off Topic? Scratch build your own autopilot
FYI - I have a very unusual auction going on Ebay for a scratch-build autopilot, and a story that goes with it. Here's the auction link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190225235720 If that doesn't work just plug 190225235720 into the Ebay search box. Sorry for the shameless plug. Sam Hoskins Murphysboro, IL ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2008
Subject: Re: Faraday Cage
From: Ron Quillin <rjquillin(at)gmail.com>
At 13:56 5/26/2008, you wrote: >It sure looks like they intended that when they wrote FAR Part 23. >Go to the FAA home page and click on FAR 23.867 (c) (2). > >Bob Dingley Is "that" a Faraday Cage you refer to? I fly a certified AC that is also certified for IFR. TC is A18CE. It's tube and fabric. Sure no cage around me. <http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/0/712e485b8e0b06c185256687006f0fb7%21OpenDocument&ExpandSection=-1&Highlight=23.867#_Section1> Hide details for Sec. 23.867 Sec. 23.867 Part 23 AIRWORTHINESS STANDARDS: NORMAL, UTILITY, ACROBATIC, AND COMMUTER CATEGORY AIRPLANES Subpart D--Design and Construction Electrical Bonding and Lightning Protection Sec. 23.867 [Electrical bonding and protection against lightning and static electricity.] (a) The airplane must be protected against catastrophic effects from lightning. (b) For metallic components, compliance with paragraph (a) of this section may be shown by-- (1) Bonding the components properly to the airframe; or (2) Designing the components so that a strike will not endanger the airplane. (c) For non-metallic components, compliance with paragraph (a) of this section may be shown by-- (1) Designing the components to minimize the effect of a strike; or (2) Incorporating acceptable means of diverting the resulting electrical current so as not to endanger the airplane. Sure don't see any implied cage here, just bonding of metallic components if there are any, unless you care to argue (c)(2) can be satisfied with a cage. Acceptable? Humm... That will vary by ACO. Ron Q. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2008
From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Off Topic? Scratch build your own autopilot
Sam Hoskins wrote: > FYI - I have a very unusual auction going on Ebay for a scratch-build > autopilot, and a story that goes with it. Here's the auction link: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190225235720 > <http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190225235720> > > If that doesn't work just plug 190225235720 into the Ebay search box. > > Sorry for the shameless plug. > > Sam Hoskins > Murphysboro, IL Hey Sam, I actually have one those that came out of a T-18 (wrecked in a storm) and there's another in a homebuilt of pre-WW-II Philippine origin here on my home field. Unfortunately, I can't find the docs for it. How much to scan & email the docs? Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2008
From: Les Kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Question about wire sizes
Hi I am trying to get smart about wiring in my a/c. II understand wire gauge sizes but am a bit confused about the wire gauge references on connectors. For example, AMP CPC connectors can take various pin sizes - 24-26ga, 20-24ga, 14-18ga and 16-18ga. Can someone explain the differences between each pin size? If I was using 18ga wire, which pin size would be appropriate? Inquiring minds need to know.. Les Kearney _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins Sent: May-26-08 4:40 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off Topic? Scratch build your own autopilot FYI - I have a very unusual auction going on Ebay for a scratch-build autopilot, and a story that goes with it. Here's the auction link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem <http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190225235720> &item=190225235720 If that doesn't work just plug 190225235720 into the Ebay search box. Sorry for the shameless plug. Sam Hoskins Murphysboro, IL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MaxNr(at)aol.com
Date: May 26, 2008
Subject: Re: Faraday Cage
Re: "Faraday cages" on Bellanca aircraft. It does in fact have a tube structure around the entire fuselage and all components are bonded to each other. Same as Pipers and Stinsons. It also was grandfathered by being first certified under CAR 3 pre WW2. Like wise the DC3 does not comply with FAR 25 either. Grandfathered and still legal. Ya'll be careful around those t-storms in wooden airplanes and avoid them by 20 miles. I used to fly a lot of hard IFR in Sikorsky 76's and took a few hits. Its forward fuselage (with fuel tanks) is a composite structure. Certified under FAR 29. The stroke travels back through the semi monocoque metal aft fuselage, through the composite hor stabilizer and out through the static wicks. All composite structures have that mesh stuff imbedded. All structures are bonded to each other. If not, the radome or the f.g. tail fairing would be blown to little pieces. Old Bob ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dale Ensing" <densing(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Question about wire sizes
Date: May 26, 2008
Les, The nomenclature pertains to the wire gauge to be used with the various pins not the pins themselves. If is says it is 16-18ga., then that is the wire size to be used with that pin. In your case you would use pins marked for 16-18ga.for your 18ga. wire. If you look at the pins you will see that the pins for the larger wire gauges (wires with smaller numbers) have a larger hole in which the wire is inserted and crimped than pins marked for smaller sizes (wires with larger numbers). This is to assure that you get the proper air tight crimp on the wire. You will discover that is almost impossible to get a good crimp on a small wire if you use a pin marked for a larger size wire. Dale Ensing ----- Original Message ----- From: Les Kearney To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 9:39 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Question about wire sizes Hi I am trying to get smart about wiring in my a/c. II understand wire gauge sizes but am a bit confused about the wire gauge references on connectors. For example, AMP CPC connectors can take various pin sizes - 24-26ga, 20-24ga, 14-18ga and 16-18ga. Can someone explain the differences between each pin size? If I was using 18ga wire, which pin size would be appropriate? Inquiring minds need to know.. Les Kearney ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins Sent: May-26-08 4:40 PM To: Aerolectric List Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off Topic? Scratch build your own autopilot FYI - I have a very unusual auction going on Ebay for a scratch-build autopilot, and a story that goes with it. Here's the auction link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190225235 720 If that doesn't work just plug 190225235720 into the Ebay search box. Sorry for the shameless plug. Sam Hoskins Murphysboro, IL http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2008
From: "RALPH HOOVER" <hooverra(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Question about wire sizes
Les, It gets even more confusing when you look at the plating options available and the insulation grip range. The best bet is have the wire specs available when you collect the part numbers so you can get all three parameters correct. It's not hard just requires close attention. In the CPC series there are also multiple contact gauges, the III+ pins are probably what you will use. In CPC shells there are also reverse shells (pin numbers mirrored) be carefull. Ralph Hoover _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 9:39 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Question about wire sizes Hi I am trying to get smart about wiring in my a/c. II understand wire gauge sizes but am a bit confused about the wire gauge references on connectors. For example, AMP CPC connectors can take various pin sizes - 24-26ga, 20-24ga, 14-18ga and 16-18ga. Can someone explain the differences between each pin size? If I was using 18ga wire, which pin size would be appropriate? Inquiring minds need to know.. Les Kearney _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins Sent: May-26-08 4:40 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off Topic? Scratch build your own autopilot FYI - I have a very unusual auction going on Ebay for a scratch-build autopilot, and a story that goes with it. Here's the auction link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem <http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190225235720> &item=190225235720 If that doesn't work just plug 190225235720 into the Ebay search box. Sorry for the shameless plug. Sam Hoskins Murphysboro, IL http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2008
From: Les Kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Question about wire sizes
Dale To clarify, why couldn't I use the 14-18ga pins for the 18ga wire? Do the pins fit a specific gauge or a range of gauges? If not a range, then what does 14-18ga mean versus 16-18ga? Thanks Les _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale Ensing Sent: May-26-08 8:19 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Question about wire sizes Les, The nomenclature pertains to the wire gauge to be used with the various pins not the pins themselves. If is says it is 16-18ga., then that is the wire size to be used with that pin. In your case you would use pins marked for 16-18ga.for your 18ga. wire. If you look at the pins you will see that the pins for the larger wire gauges (wires with smaller numbers) have a larger hole in which the wire is inserted and crimped than pins marked for smaller sizes (wires with larger numbers). This is to assure that you get the proper air tight crimp on the wire. You will discover that is almost impossible to get a good crimp on a small wire if you use a pin marked for a larger size wire. Dale Ensing ----- Original Message ----- From: Les Kearney <mailto:kearney(at)shaw.ca> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 9:39 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Question about wire sizes Hi I am trying to get smart about wiring in my a/c. II understand wire gauge sizes but am a bit confused about the wire gauge references on connectors. For example, AMP CPC connectors can take various pin sizes - 24-26ga, 20-24ga, 14-18ga and 16-18ga. Can someone explain the differences between each pin size? If I was using 18ga wire, which pin size would be appropriate? Inquiring minds need to know.. Les Kearney _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins Sent: May-26-08 4:40 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off Topic? Scratch build your own autopilot FYI - I have a very unusual auction going on Ebay for a scratch-build autopilot, and a story that goes with it. Here's the auction link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem <http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190225235720> &item=190225235720 If that doesn't work just plug 190225235720 into the Ebay search box. Sorry for the shameless plug. Sam Hoskins Murphysboro, IL http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert McCallum" <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Question about wire sizes
Date: May 27, 2008
Les; The pins fit wires within the range marked on them. 16-18 ga pins fit wires of 16 or 18 (or 17 if you can find it) gauge. A 14-18 ga pin would fit 14, 16, or 18 gauge wires. (also 15 or 17 if you could find them) (Wire gauges normally change by 2's hence 14, 16, 18 etc, but in rare special cases sometimes the intermediate sizes are made. You'll likely never find any so don't worry about it.) Bob McC ----- Original Message ----- From: Les Kearney To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 12:21 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Question about wire sizes Dale To clarify, why couldn't I use the 14-18ga pins for the 18ga wire? Do the pins fit a specific gauge or a range of gauges? If not a range, then what does 14-18ga mean versus 16-18ga? Thanks Les ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale Ensing Sent: May-26-08 8:19 PM To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Question about wire sizes Les, The nomenclature pertains to the wire gauge to be used with the various pins not the pins themselves. If is says it is 16-18ga., then that is the wire size to be used with that pin. In your case you would use pins marked for 16-18ga.for your 18ga. wire. If you look at the pins you will see that the pins for the larger wire gauges (wires with smaller numbers) have a larger hole in which the wire is inserted and crimped than pins marked for smaller sizes (wires with larger numbers). This is to assure that you get the proper air tight crimp on the wire. You will discover that is almost impossible to get a good crimp on a small wire if you use a pin marked for a larger size wire. Dale Ensing ----- Original Message ----- From: Les Kearney To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 9:39 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Question about wire sizes Hi I am trying to get smart about wiring in my a/c. II understand wire gauge sizes but am a bit confused about the wire gauge references on connectors. For example, AMP CPC connectors can take various pin sizes - 24-26ga, 20-24ga, 14-18ga and 16-18ga. Can someone explain the differences between each pin size? If I was using 18ga wire, which pin size would be appropriate? Inquiring minds need to know.. Les Kearney ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins Sent: May-26-08 4:40 PM To: Aerolectric List Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off Topic? Scratch build your own autopilot FYI - I have a very unusual auction going on Ebay for a scratch-build autopilot, and a story that goes with it. Here's the auction link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190225235 720 If that doesn't work just plug 190225235720 into the Ebay search box. Sorry for the shameless plug. Sam Hoskins Murphysboro, IL http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Listhref="http://forums.matronics. com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribu tion">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 27, 2008
From: "RALPH HOOVER" <hooverra(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Question about wire sizes
Les, The 14-18 is in fact a range. You could use 14-18 on 18 ga or 16-18 on 18 ga wire. Amp has too many combinations to count but with a little digging you can find a combination of parts that will do what you need. I have attached a link to contact info and a couple of PDF's that may help. Pages 398 to 405 of the current digikey catalog may help as well. http://catalog.tycoelectronics.com/TE/bin/TE.Connect?C=1 <http://catalog.tycoelectronics.com/TE/bin/TE.Connect?C=1&M=BYPN&TCPN=66360- 1&RQPN=66360-1> &M=BYPN&TCPN=66360-1&RQPN=66360-1 http://ecommas.tycoelectronics.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?A ction=showdoc&DocId=Catalog+Page%7F65910_0806_PrecisionPinSockCntcts%7Fn%2Fa %7Fpdf%7FEnglish%7FENG_CAT_65910_0806_PrecisionPinSockCntcts_.pdf Ralph _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 12:22 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Question about wire sizes Dale To clarify, why couldn't I use the 14-18ga pins for the 18ga wire? Do the pins fit a specific gauge or a range of gauges? If not a range, then what does 14-18ga mean versus 16-18ga? Thanks Les _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale Ensing Sent: May-26-08 8:19 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Question about wire sizes Les, The nomenclature pertains to the wire gauge to be used with the various pins not the pins themselves. If is says it is 16-18ga., then that is the wire size to be used with that pin. In your case you would use pins marked for 16-18ga.for your 18ga. wire. If you look at the pins you will see that the pins for the larger wire gauges (wires with smaller numbers) have a larger hole in which the wire is inserted and crimped than pins marked for smaller sizes (wires with larger numbers). This is to assure that you get the proper air tight crimp on the wire. You will discover that is almost impossible to get a good crimp on a small wire if you use a pin marked for a larger size wire. Dale Ensing ----- Original Message ----- From: Les Kearney <mailto:kearney(at)shaw.ca> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 9:39 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Question about wire sizes Hi I am trying to get smart about wiring in my a/c. II understand wire gauge sizes but am a bit confused about the wire gauge references on connectors. For example, AMP CPC connectors can take various pin sizes - 24-26ga, 20-24ga, 14-18ga and 16-18ga. Can someone explain the differences between each pin size? If I was using 18ga wire, which pin size would be appropriate? Inquiring minds need to know.. Les Kearney _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins Sent: May-26-08 4:40 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off Topic? Scratch build your own autopilot FYI - I have a very unusual auction going on Ebay for a scratch-build autopilot, and a story that goes with it. Here's the auction link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem <http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190225235720> &item=190225235720 If that doesn't work just plug 190225235720 into the Ebay search box. Sorry for the shameless plug. Sam Hoskins Murphysboro, IL http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 27, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Off Topic? Scratch build your own autopilot
> > >Sam Hoskins wrote: >>FYI - I have a very unusual auction going on Ebay for a scratch-build >>autopilot, and a story that goes with it. Here's the auction link: >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190225235720 >><http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190225235720> >> >>If that doesn't work just plug 190225235720 into the Ebay search box. >> >>Sorry for the shameless plug. >> >>Sam Hoskins >>Murphysboro, IL > >Hey Sam, >I actually have one those that came out of a T-18 (wrecked in a storm) and >there's another in a homebuilt of pre-WW-II Philippine origin here on my >home field. > >Unfortunately, I can't find the docs for it. How much to scan & email the >docs? I think I have a set of the plans. They were offered in a series of articles in Sport Aviation. If I get time I'll scan them and post to the website. Actually, these have more historical value than practical. Nowadays, one might use a piezo rotational-rate sensor as opposed to building the fluid-jet device that Doug concocted. But the fluid-jet rate sensor has a certain elegance of thought behind it that I find fascinating. Further, while Doug offered a means by which one could craft a DIY flux-gate magnetometer to derive magnetic heading, I think I would opt for getting true or magnetic course off a GPS engine. Having said all that, it's interesting to peer into the mind of Doug Garner. I had the pleasure of conversation with him over several years attendance at OSH. He possessed one of those rare intellects that could sift through piles of simple-ideas and past recipes for success to come up with new and better ways to do it . . . or techniques that can be accomplished in a hobbyist's electronics shop. A true teacher. I just found the folder where I'd stored Doug's work and discovered that it also contains a data package by a Mr. Don Hewes who also did a manual on home built a/p systems. Don references Doug's work and offers some interesting variations on a theme tailored to tools, materials and techniques available to us about 1980 when this work was getting started. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 27, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: AEC9011 OV/LV-Warning
> >Bob, >Let me know if you need another mule to test the below. I am very >interested (no, make that a must have) in dual battery monitoring. A >quick google turns up a few options. I do have one system installed on a YAK . . . I presume the outcome was satisfactory. No negative feedback and numerous inquiries from other interested customers. I think we're ready to rock-n-roll pending allocation of $time$ toward that task. >High tech job. >http://store.solar-electric.com/xalidubamo.html > >Gizmo. >http://www.piranhaoffroad.com.au/products/dualbattery/dualbatteryinfo_ac >cessories.htm Hmmm . . . pricey little buggers . . . The 9011 is designed first to be OV protection for generators but adaptable to alternators. Second, LV warning for the main bus and third, LV warning for an aux battery. All three functions in one box for about $50. One may pick any combination of the three functions to operate independently of each other. I just got home from Medicine Lodge, KS. Had a meeting with my family's banker and CPA about setting up an LLC under which I plan to operate the AeroElectric Connection publications, a line of products for OBAM aircraft (business name to be determined), my son's locksmith activities along with his HVAC services, my consulting services, and a sort of "how can we help you" handy-man service backed up with a great wood working shop. The kids are going down tonight to tour some available house with a real estate agent. We're 99% sure that the whole family will be moved to ML before the end of the year, 95% sure before the end of the summer. Once I have a mechanism in place to hire help and take care of government's penchant for ham-fisted-filching of citizen's property, I'll get the 9011 and a number of new products into production with a goal of turning all but consulting business over to the kids. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 27, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Z-19 hypothetical question
> >Hey Bob, were you referring to me as joe-pilot? LOL > >Ok, to keep me from stubbing my toe, how about the attached schematic? It >features circuit breakers within reach of the pilot, dual alternate feed >for the essential bus, relays to isolate power from the cockpit, one power >wire between engine compartment and essential bus with fusible links to >protect it. > >Any suggestions, comments, or improvements are welcome. > >Joe Gores I'm having trouble putting my arms around the rationale for the double alternate e-bus feeds. The original design goal for dual batteries under Z-19 was to make sure the LAST piece of equipment on board to loose power after alternator failure was the engine. Further, with the double-alternate feed scheme you seem to be worrying about double failure . . . alternator followed by a failure of your non-engine battery to carry e-bus loads. For the first 25% or so of capacitor discharge, voltage falls at the approximate rate of: Volts/Second = Amps/Farad Assuming a 4A bus, then 4A/.05F yields a rate of 80 volts/second. If your hoping to keep the e-bus at say 10v or above, then starting with a fresh battery (12.5 v) you can tolerate a drop of 2.5 volts during transition. At 80 volts/second decay, you can tolerate an open supply line for 2.5/80.0 or 32 milliseconds. Hmmm . . . you can probably get the transition over with in that time. But suppose you're switching from a discharged battery at 10.5 volts. Now the capacitor starts at 10.5 and transition has to be completed in 0.5v/80vps or 6 milliseconds. This exercise illustrates why we don't attempt these kinds of things in the big iron birds. Every piece of equipment we install is qualified to make graceful recoveries from total loss of power during switch or relay transitions. Let's revisit Z-19 as published and you tell us what failure mode is not addressed. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 27, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Harbor Freight 93258 charger evaluation
Got over to HF late last week and picked up a couple of the latest and cheapest chargers. The first one I had a chance to evaluate was the 93258, 1.5 "on board" charger. Here's the recharge profile I recorded . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery_Chargers/HF_Chargers/HF93258_1.jpg This is a bit of a pig for 1.5A charger. Probably wouldn't want to mount it on your airplane. However, it is nicely built and would probably be just fine for wheel or water- borne vehicles. It's NOT a battery maintainer. No top-off dwell. Further, it oscillates between about 13.0 volts and 14.0 volts with relatively short busts of input energy necessary to push the battery terminal voltage back up to 14.0 volts. An excellent buy at $13.00 but not the best we know how to do with maintainers. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: E-Bus Diode & Fuseable LInk Question
Date: May 28, 2008
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
Henry, I too am installing the e-bus diode. B & C directions show a jumper between two of the fast tabs on the diode while Bob indicates one can just cut off two of the tabs and use the +/- connectors (See page 1-9). This comparison gleans one bit of information from the diode and that is the fast tab bi-polar to the others is positive. This definitely connects to the e-bus. Ok, that's easy - Bob shows the tab opposite to the + (presumed the neg side of the internal diode) is negative and presumably connects to the master bus. B & C jumps the two opposing terminals and wires them directly to the master bus. Someone should decide how these things really wire up. Perhaps they work either way? Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Henry Trzeciakowski Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 7:53 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: E-Bus Diode & Fuseable LInk Question --> Bob: I purchased from B & C their E-Bus diode with 15 watt heatsink and installed between Main Bus & E-Bus per your Z diagram. What I'm confused about is that their wiring diagram has 1 wire originating from a fast-tab on the diode to the E-Bus - NO PROBLEM SO FAR: then 2 wires from 2 seperate fast-tabs joining together then proceeding to a Circuit Breaker then to the Main Bus....Sooooo I'm a little confused about the Circuit Breaker and why there are 2 attach points on the diode in the first place.!!! None of your Z diagrams show a CB between the Main & E Bus, and why 2 attach points on the diode joining forces? Second questions:: Im installing a Heavy E-Bus architecture, per Z-32. Currently my E-Bus load is around 12 amps...architecture is: 18g F-link at E-Bus---14 awg---S704-1 relay---14 awg---10amp fuse at Battery Bus. According to B & C, fuseable links are for low power, 10 amps or less.....so should I eliminate the fuseable link and directly wire to #10 stud on E-Bus OR wire to a 10 or 15 amp fuse on the E-bus - and increase the Battery Bus from 10 amp to 15 amp? Thanks Henry ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: AEC9011 OV/LV-Warning
Date: May 28, 2008
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
Thanks Bob, Best of luck with your new venture(s). We'll look forward to your new products and don't worry we'll all keep an eye on your lineage. Enjoy -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 6:08 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: AEC9011 OV/LV-Warning --> > >Bob, >Let me know if you need another mule to test the below. I am very >interested (no, make that a must have) in dual battery monitoring. A >quick google turns up a few options. I do have one system installed on a YAK . . . I presume the outcome was satisfactory. No negative feedback and numerous inquiries from other interested customers. I think we're ready to rock-n-roll pending allocation of $time$ toward that task. >High tech job. >http://store.solar-electric.com/xalidubamo.html > >Gizmo. >http://www.piranhaoffroad.com.au/products/dualbattery/dualbatteryinfo_a >c >cessories.htm Hmmm . . . pricey little buggers . . . The 9011 is designed first to be OV protection for generators but adaptable to alternators. Second, LV warning for the main bus and third, LV warning for an aux battery. All three functions in one box for about $50. One may pick any combination of the three functions to operate independently of each other. I just got home from Medicine Lodge, KS. Had a meeting with my family's banker and CPA about setting up an LLC under which I plan to operate the AeroElectric Connection publications, a line of products for OBAM aircraft (business name to be determined), my son's locksmith activities along with his HVAC services, my consulting services, and a sort of "how can we help you" handy-man service backed up with a great wood working shop. The kids are going down tonight to tour some available house with a real estate agent. We're 99% sure that the whole family will be moved to ML before the end of the year, 95% sure before the end of the summer. Once I have a mechanism in place to hire help and take care of government's penchant for ham-fisted-filching of citizen's property, I'll get the 9011 and a number of new products into production with a goal of turning all but consulting business over to the kids. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave VanLanen" <davevanlanen(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Corrosion Protection Of Electrical Connections
Date: May 28, 2008
I was wondering if there was any sort of recommended corrosion protection application for electrical connections, especially where wires are spliced with solder or d-sub pin connectors and then covered with heat shrink tubing. I found the attached e-mail in the archive, but it refers only to limited use of DC-4 silicone grease for certain situations such as spark plug terminals. Is there any other sort of material that folks are applying to connections as added protection before "covering them up", or is it best just to leave them "dry" and simply use dual-wall heat shrink where there is a concern about corrosion? Thanks, Dave Van Lanen Madison, WI ------------------------ Date: May 14, 2006 From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Subject: Re: Di-Electric Grease; where used <http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=52035146?KEYS=co rrosion_protection?LISTNAME=AeroElectric?HITNUMBER=3?SERIAL=0804489583?SHOWB UTTONS=NO> > >My other toy is a motorcycle, which has electronic everything. Some >riders strongly advocate to apply dielectric grease the connectors for >corrosion protection. But a dielectric is a non-conductor; seem >counter-productive. What am I missing here? >Wayne Dow-Corning DC-4 and similar silicone greases are excellent prophylactic treatments for exclusion of moisture and other contaminants into connectors. Waaaayyyy back when, we commonly filled the mating spaces of coax connectors up on towers with DC-4 before putting the connector together. Use sparingly. You don't want it to ooze out and get the exterior all messy. The stuff is VERY hard to get off and in the case of coax connections, made it difficult to wrap with tape for exterior water-barrier. A coating the top insulator and terminal of a spark plug before installing the spark plug wire would be an assist for keeping moisture out of a potentially vulnerable joint in the system. Same thing would be good for coil end of wire. Silicone greases migrate with time. Put a pea-sized dab on a flat surface and come back a few months later. You'll find a large silicone-grease wetted area around the dab that continues to grow with time. It's a neat stuff but I would use it reservedly with respect to amount and location and only in areas where a connection is likely to be exposed to extra-ordinarily corrosive influences. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave VanLanen" <davevanlanen(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Wire Wrap Question
Date: May 28, 2008
To anyone using the nylon lacing tape for wire bundle tying, (see attached e-mail from archive) - before I order some, is there any particular benefit to using black over the natural colored tape? Thanks, Dave Van Lanen Madison, WI ---------------- Date: Nov 20, 2005 From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Subject: Re: Wire wrap <http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=45762309?KEYS=st ring_?LISTNAME=AeroElectric?HITNUMBER=184?SERIAL=08304621247?SHOWBUTTONS=NO> > >After reading in Light Plane Maintenance about the bad aspects of plastic >ty-wraps, I am re-doing my wire stays off the engine mount with Adel >clamps and as suggested in the article, with the old fashion, but tedious >wire bundling wrap. It stated the Digikey has this stuff, but I was unable >to locate it in my catalog. >Does anyone have a source for this stuff? >Wayne String ties don't have to be any more hassle than ty-wraps. See http://aeroelectric.com/articles/cable_lace/cable_lace.html for slick technique on getting a two-handed string-tie to draw down as tight as a plastic ty-wrap. You're looking for waxed polyester lacing tape. See Aircraft Spruce catalog for listing below. BREYDEN NYLON LACING TAPES Flat braided tape manufactured from 100% high tenacity, continuous filament nylon yarn. This tape is impregnated with a specially formulated microcrystalline, fungicidal wax. Conforms to the requirements of A-A-52080-B-3. Recommended for continuous lacing. 500 yd. rolls. Width: .077" (min.) / .094" (max.); Thickness: .011" (min.) / .017" (max.); Tensile Strength: 50 Lb. (min.); Wax Content: 15-32%; Elongation: 40% (max.) Natural ............P/N 11-12170 ..........$14.85 Black ..............P/N 11-12160 ..........$17.30 Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Corrosion Protection Of Electrical Connections
Date: May 28, 2008
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
Dave, Bob has earlier indicated to me that hanging connections out in the open is the best protection of all. Look over your head at those 500KV lines. If they get wet, they'll dry without inhibitors which cover up moisture etc. If you live in a pathetically damp place like I do, I have another trick to help the moisture/corrosion problem. This works in the cabin or in the engine compartment. Take a 25 watt bulb and hang it inside the engine compartment or the cabin when not in use. This very small amount of heat will thwart normal moisture buildup. There is at least one product out there that connects to the airframe and produces positive ions in and around the airplane which supposedly are offensive to rust. I heard they also attract nice women, but who knows. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave VanLanen Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 11:24 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Corrosion Protection Of Electrical Connections I was wondering if there was any sort of recommended corrosion protection application for electrical connections, especially where wires are spliced with solder or d-sub pin connectors and then covered with heat shrink tubing. I found the attached e-mail in the archive, but it refers only to limited use of DC-4 silicone grease for certain situations such as spark plug terminals. Is there any other sort of material that folks are applying to connections as added protection before "covering them up", or is it best just to leave them "dry" and simply use dual-wall heat shrink where there is a concern about corrosion? Thanks, Dave Van Lanen Madison, WI ------------------------ Date: May 14, 2006 From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Subject: Re: Di-Electric Grease; where used <http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=52035146?KE Y S=corrosion_protection?LISTNAME=AeroElectric?HITNUMBER=3?SERIAL=0 8044895 83?SHOWBUTTONS=NO> > >My other toy is a motorcycle, which has electronic everything. Some >riders strongly advocate to apply dielectric grease the connectors for >corrosion protection. But a dielectric is a non-conductor; seem >counter-productive. What am I missing here? >Wayne Dow-Corning DC-4 and similar silicone greases are excellent prophylactic treatments for exclusion of moisture and other contaminants into connectors. Waaaayyyy back when, we commonly filled the mating spaces of coax connectors up on towers with DC-4 before putting the connector together. Use sparingly. You don't want it to ooze out and get the exterior all messy. The stuff is VERY hard to get off and in the case of coax connections, made it difficult to wrap with tape for exterior water-barrier. A coating the top insulator and terminal of a spark plug before installing the spark plug wire would be an assist for keeping moisture out of a potentially vulnerable joint in the system. Same thing would be good for coil end of wire. Silicone greases migrate with time. Put a pea-sized dab on a flat surface and come back a few months later. You'll find a large silicone-grease wetted area around the dab that continues to grow with time. It's a neat stuff but I would use it reservedly with respect to amount and location and only in areas where a connection is likely to be exposed to extra-ordinarily corrosive influences. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Wire Wrap Question
Date: May 28, 2008
From: "John Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
The white tends to yellow (discolor) with time. The black is easy to find and cut when troubleshooting or rerouting damaged wires. Personal Preference applies. John Cox From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave VanLanen Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 8:50 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wire Wrap Question To anyone using the nylon lacing tape for wire bundle tying, (see attached e-mail from archive) - before I order some, is there any particular benefit to using black over the natural colored tape? Thanks, Dave Van Lanen Madison, WI ---------------- Date: Nov 20, 2005 From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Subject: Re: Wire wrap <http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=45762309?KE Y S=string_?LISTNAME=AeroElectric?HITNUMBER=184?SERIAL=08304621247? SHOWBUT TONS=NO> > >After reading in Light Plane Maintenance about the bad aspects of plastic >ty-wraps, I am re-doing my wire stays off the engine mount with Adel >clamps and as suggested in the article, with the old fashion, but tedious >wire bundling wrap. It stated the Digikey has this stuff, but I was unable >to locate it in my catalog. >Does anyone have a source for this stuff? >Wayne String ties don't have to be any more hassle than ty-wraps. See http://aeroelectric.com/articles/cable_lace/cable_lace.html <http://aeroelectric.com/articles/cable_lace/cable_lace.html> for slick technique on getting a two-handed string-tie to draw down as tight as a plastic ty-wrap. You're looking for waxed polyester lacing tape. See Aircraft Spruce catalog for listing below. BREYDEN NYLON LACING TAPES Flat braided tape manufactured from 100% high tenacity, continuous filament nylon yarn. This tape is impregnated with a specially formulated microcrystalline, fungicidal wax. Conforms to the requirements of A-A-52080-B-3. Recommended for continuous lacing. 500 yd. rolls. Width: .077" (min.) / .094" (max.); Thickness: .011" (min.) / .017" (max.); Tensile Strength: 50 Lb. (min.); Wax Content: 15-32%; Elongation: 40% (max.) Natural ............P/N 11-12170 ..........$14.85 Black ..............P/N 11-12160 ..........$17.30 Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 28, 2008
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Corrosion Protection Of Electrical Connections
Oh now you've stepped in it Glenn ;) And I'm about to... Every decade or so the ion rust protection scam reappears. Even new car dealers are in on it this time. If only cathodic protection were so easy... Ken longg(at)pjm.com wrote: > Dave, > Bob has earlier indicated to me that hanging connections out in the > open is the best protection of all. Look over your head at those 500KV > lines. If they get wet, they'll dry without inhibitors which cover up > moisture etc. If you live in a pathetically damp place like I do, I have > another trick to help the moisture/corrosion problem. This works in the > cabin or in the engine compartment. Take a 25 watt bulb and hang it > inside the engine compartment or the cabin when not in use. This very > small amount of heat will thwart normal moisture buildup. > > There is at least one product out there that connects to the airframe > and produces positive ions in and around the airplane which supposedly > are offensive to rust. I heard they also attract nice women, but who knows. > > Glenn > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dale Ensing" <densing(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Wire Wrap Question
Date: May 28, 2008
Wire Wrap QuestionIf the lacing tape is exposed to UV or heat, the black will usually last longer as there is filler in the nylon to give it more reistence. Same goes for the nylon cable ties. Dale Ensing ----- Original Message ----- From: John Cox To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 12:38 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Wire Wrap Question The white tends to yellow (discolor) with time. The black is easy to find and cut when troubleshooting or rerouting damaged wires. Personal Preference applies. John Cox From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave VanLanen Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 8:50 AM To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wire Wrap Question To anyone using the nylon lacing tape for wire bundle tying, (see attached e-mail from archive) - before I order some, is there any particular benefit to using black over the natural colored tape? Thanks, Dave Van Lanen Madison, WI ---------------- Date: Nov 20, 2005 From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Subject: Re: Wire wrap > >After reading in Light Plane Maintenance about the bad aspects of plastic >ty-wraps, I am re-doing my wire stays off the engine mount with Adel >clamps and as suggested in the article, with the old fashion, but tedious >wire bundling wrap. It stated the Digikey has this stuff, but I was unable >to locate it in my catalog. >Does anyone have a source for this stuff? >Wayne String ties don't have to be any more hassle than ty-wraps. See http://aeroelectric.com/articles/cable_lace/cable_lace.html for slick technique on getting a two-handed string-tie to draw down as tight as a plastic ty-wrap. You're looking for waxed polyester lacing tape. See Aircraft Spruce catalog for listing below. BREYDEN NYLON LACING TAPES Flat braided tape manufactured from 100% high tenacity, continuous filament nylon yarn. This tape is impregnated with a specially formulated microcrystalline, fungicidal wax. Conforms to the requirements of A-A-52080-B-3. Recommended for continuous lacing. 500 yd. rolls. Width: .077" (min.) / .094" (max.); Thickness: .011" (min.) / .017" (max.); Tensile Strength: 50 Lb. (min.); Wax Content: 15-32%; Elongation: 40% (max.) Natural ............P/N 11-12170 ..........$14.85 Black ..............P/N 11-12160 ..........$17.30 Bob . . . http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Listhttp://forums.matroni cs.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
Subject: Wire Wrap Question
Date: May 28, 2008
White gets dirty very easily, both during tying and the spool just kicking around on the workbench. Unless you have an anally clean work area, get black. Regards, Greg Young _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave VanLanen Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 10:50 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wire Wrap Question To anyone using the nylon lacing tape for wire bundle tying, (see attached e-mail from archive) - before I order some, is there any particular benefit to using black over the natural colored tape? Thanks, Dave Van Lanen Madison, WI ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 28, 2008
Subject: Wire Wrap Question
From: Ron Quillin <rjquillin(at)gmail.com>
At 11:35 5/28/2008, you wrote: >White gets dirty very easily, both during tying and the spool just >kicking around on the workbench. Unless you have an anally clean >work area, get black. > >Regards, >Greg Young Oooooh, I just might fit. I keep my white in a ziplock bag... Also keeps assorted dust, grit and gunk from sticking to the wax and making it less sticky. And I do wash my hands before using the white. BTW, I think it's called lacing cord, not wire wrap, which could be confused with a method of wiring. Ron Q. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 28, 2008
From: Sam Marlow <sam(at)fr8dog.net>
Subject: Re: EIS resistor
The "P" lead ground shield pulled through the "P" connector, not the "P" lead itself. This caused the erratic tach. Mike wrote: > > Sam, > > > > Yes thatsthe mod I was talking about. Let me know what GRT says. > > > > Mike > > > > mlas(at)cox.net > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Sam Marlow > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 20, 2008 9:09 AM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: EIS resistor > > > > It's puzzling, because it worked fine for 6 months, then the mag died. > When I reinstalled the repaired mag, the tach started wondering, > mostly at higher RPMs. > It's the 27k resistor, supplied by Grand Rapids. I sent a Demo log to > G/R this morning, hope to here something soon. > I did the mod on the circuit board, before first flight, if that's the > one your referring to. > > Mike wrote: > > Sam, > > > > What is the problem you are having with your EIS 6000? If it is with > the RPM indication, are you driving the RPM from the P-lead? If so > what resistor value are you currently using? If you are using a > resistor in the range required and it is not working you should call > Grand Rapids. There is a mod that is required on some 6000s which > calls for the removal of a resister internally. It is a simple > process and they can walk you through it or you could send it back > assuming this is the issue. > > > > Mike > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Sam Marlow > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:58 AM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > > *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: EIS resistor > > > > I'm having trouble with my EIS 6000. Thinking about changing the 27k > resistor, but I can't find one. My question is, can I put a 22k and a > 5.5k in series instead? > Thanks, > Sam Marlow > > * * > * * > * - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum -* > * --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List* > * - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -* > * --> http://forums.matronics.com* > * - List Contribution Web Site -* > * Thank you for your generous support!* > * -Matt Dralle, List Admin.* > * --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > * * > > > 10/2/2007 11:10 AM > > 10/2/2007 11:10 AM > > * * > * * > * href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List* > * href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics..com* > * href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > * * > > > > * * > e style='margin-left:.5in'>* * > ** > * - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum -* > ** > ** > ** > ** > * --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List* > ** > * - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -* > ** > * --> http://forums.matronics.com* > ** > * - List Contribution Web Site -* > * Thank you for your generous support!* > * -Matt Dralle, List Admin.* > * --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > ** > * * > > 10/2/2007 11:10 AM > > 10/2/2007 11:10 AM > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: revenson(at)comcast.net (Roger Evenson)
Subject: fuseholder location
Date: May 28, 2008
Any reason to not put my fuse holders on the engine side of the firewall? Is the heat too much? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: revenson(at)comcast.net (Roger Evenson)
Subject: ANL fuse size
Date: May 28, 2008
I read in Aeroelectric Connection that ANL current limiters should be sized larger than alternator output. Then I went to purchase one at B&C and read in their catalog that they should be sized same as alternator output rating. Can anyone tell me which is correct? Roger, Tucson, AZ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terry McMillan" <terryml5c2p6(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: fuseholder location
Date: May 28, 2008
I'm planning to do the same thing, mounting small 6-circuit marine fuse panels for the FADEC circuits relatively low down where the at-rest heat at least will be lower. Given that many modern cars have fuse/relay blocks mounted in the engine compartment where it gets at least as hot as an aircraft I expect them to be reliable but like you I would be interested to know if anyone has knowledge of heat problems with quality components on the engine side. Terry McMillan >From: revenson(at)comcast.net (Roger Evenson) >Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: fuseholder location >Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 23:01:38 +0000 > >Evenson) > >Any reason to not put my fuse holders on the engine side of the firewall? > >Is the heat too much? > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CardinalNSB(at)aol.com
Date: May 28, 2008
Subject: Bob's LLC
Finally something I might share back from 25 years as business/bankruptcy/attorney. This is not legal advice, just thoughts. LLC is good first step, still some questions as to whether a corporation (C or S) is the best for liability protection. More importantly here, be careful of putting all your eggs in one basket. In general, I recommend keeping separate businesses in separate legal entities. It would be a shame to have the OBAM business hit with a claim that originated against the locksmith, for instance. Or when the big national company wants to buy the hvac company, having to separate out the other businesses. Some tax issues there also. Mainly I worry about the cross liability issue. You don't want a single point failure to ruin your entire economic plan. Regards, and thanks again for this internet resource, Skip (Florida) . **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 28, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Bob's LLC
>Finally something I might share back from 25 years as >business/bankruptcy/attorney. > >This is not legal advice, just thoughts. > >LLC is good first step, still some questions as to whether a corporation >(C or S) is the best for liability protection. > >More importantly here, be careful of putting all your eggs in one basket. > >In general, I recommend keeping separate businesses in separate legal >entities. > >It would be a shame to have the OBAM business hit with a claim that >originated against the locksmith, for instance. > >Or when the big national company wants to buy the hvac company, having to >separate out the other businesses. Some tax issues there also. > >Mainly I worry about the cross liability issue. You don't want a single >point failure to ruin your entire economic plan. > >Regards, and thanks again for this internet resource, Skip (Florida) Thanks! Actually, the LLC is primarily a way to get me, my kids and ultimately my wife on a payroll for group health insurance. There will be few "eggs" of net worth. Practically all the value is embodied in skill-sets. It's also a way for my consulting income to be distributed the kids and taxed at their rates instead of mine. ML is a town of 2000 where one cannot make a living by being a specialist . . . so it's exceedingly unlikely that any of the specialty services would become attractive to a buyout candidate. We'll carry liability insurance . . . but only enough to buy us representation and not enough to make us a plum to pick. I'm becoming rather poor in a few weeks. My income is going to be less than what I was making when my boss raised my wages by 50% after one of my designs landed him a $multi-million$ fleet retrofit of the Lears . . . that was 28 years ago. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 28, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: ANL fuse size
>--=======AVGMAIL-483E280E0000====== >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > >I read in Aeroelectric Connection that ANL current limiters should be >sized larger than alternator output. Then I went to purchase one at B&C >and read in their catalog that they should be sized same as alternator >output rating. > >Can anyone tell me which is correct? The data sheets are the better guide. See: http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Fuses_and_Current_Limiters/Bussman/ANL_Specs.pdf Not that a 60A alternator on steroids cannot open an ANL35. These are HARD fault protection stroked by a faulted battery (1000 amps!?). Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 28, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Off line for a few days.
Dr. Dee and I are headed for a long weekend along the CA coast south of SF. I'm taking a computer along, to service my MP3 player and let me do a bit of writing. The good Dr. told me to leave that WiFi adapter home . . . Yes ma'am! No problem! Be back next Wednesday. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeffrey W. Skiba" <jskiba(at)icosa.net>
Subject: Bridge Diodes use
Date: May 29, 2008
Okay, if you use the bride diodes to power a device from two power sources. Which one will carry the load? Or will they both share the load in some way? I thought I read or heard someplace that the power source with the higher voltage takes the load but how much? All of it? I hope this question makes sense..... For example if a device draws 10 amps and is powered by bridge diode with power source 1 at 13.8 volts and power source 2 at 13 volts Will source 1 take the whole load all 10 amps ? Or will they share it in some fashion and how do you calculate that ? I ask since I want to make sure I do not over load my two power source config. Thanks Jeff. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 29, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
> >Okay, if you use the bride diodes to power a device from two power sources. > >Which one will carry the load? >Or will they both share the load in some way? >I thought I read or heard someplace that the power source with the higher >voltage takes the load but how much? All of it? correct >I hope this question makes sense..... > >For example if a device draws 10 amps and is powered by bridge diode with >power source 1 at 13.8 volts and power source 2 at 13 volts > >Will source 1 take the whole load all 10 amps ? >Or will they share it in some fashion and how do you calculate that ? > >I ask since I want to make sure I do not over load my two power source >config. Diodes used in this manner are not intended to be load sharing devices. Their only function is to make sure the load has voltage from at least one source AND to prevent backfeed of energy from a good source into a failed source. Thus they are electrical ISOLATION. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: fuseholder location
Date: May 29, 2008
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
I'll be doing the same, but not too low as to absorb heat from the exhaust. There are several fuse holders sold which have stand off mounts that would have good application on a firewall and still allow air circulation behind them. I like the durability of the B & C blocks, but they lack a stand off mount and covers. A good cover is important to keep out dirt/oil from the engine. A quick search on Google will reveal a number of nice fuse block holders for all weather use. I can't imagine an issue with installing on aircraft what is internal to millions of automobiles sitting in boiling NYC traffic day after day with no altercation save the massive CO2 release. I believe the trick is to buy a well made product, perhaps for marine use which is really heavy duty and further resistant to heat, dirt and the like. If anyone finds a good link, please pass it on. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry McMillan Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 8:06 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: fuseholder location --> I'm planning to do the same thing, mounting small 6-circuit marine fuse panels for the FADEC circuits relatively low down where the at-rest heat at least will be lower. Given that many modern cars have fuse/relay blocks mounted in the engine compartment where it gets at least as hot as an aircraft I expect them to be reliable but like you I would be interested to know if anyone has knowledge of heat problems with quality components on the engine side. Terry McMillan >From: revenson(at)comcast.net (Roger Evenson) >Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: fuseholder location >Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 23:01:38 +0000 > >Evenson) > >Any reason to not put my fuse holders on the engine side of the >firewall? > >Is the heat too much? > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ed Mueller <ed(at)muellerartcover.com>
Subject: Re: Bob's LLC
Date: May 29, 2008
Hi Bob, Have you looked at an HSA (Health Savings Account) for health insurance? I won't go into too many details and everyone's situation can vary, but if you can afford the deductible early on if you get sick (worst case situation), it will eventually start to add up to a significant amount of money in your account instead of the insurance company's. Can work really well for a healthy younger person. Also, I'm NOT in the insurance or healthcare business, only a small business trying to stay afloat without lining the insurance company's pockets. Ed On May 29, 2008, at 12:01 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > >> Finally something I might share back from 25 years as >> business/bankruptcy/attorney. >> >> This is not legal advice, just thoughts. >> >> LLC is good first step, still some questions as to whether a >> corporation (C or S) is the best for liability protection. >> >> More importantly here, be careful of putting all your eggs in one >> basket. >> >> In general, I recommend keeping separate businesses in separate legal >> entities. >> >> It would be a shame to have the OBAM business hit with a claim that >> originated against the locksmith, for instance. >> >> Or when the big national company wants to buy the hvac company, >> having to separate out the other businesses. Some tax issues there >> also. >> >> Mainly I worry about the cross liability issue. You don't want a >> single point failure to ruin your entire economic plan. >> >> Regards, and thanks again for this internet resource, Skip (Florida) > > Thanks! Actually, the LLC is primarily a way to > get me, my kids and ultimately my wife on a payroll > for group health insurance. There will be few "eggs" > of net worth. > > Practically all the value is embodied in skill-sets. > It's also a way for my consulting income to be > distributed the kids and taxed at their rates > instead of mine. > > ML is a town of 2000 where one cannot make a living > by being a specialist . . . so it's exceedingly > unlikely that any of the specialty services would > become attractive to a buyout candidate. We'll > carry liability insurance . . . but only enough to > buy us representation and not enough to make us > a plum to pick. > > I'm becoming rather poor in a few weeks. My income > is going to be less than what I was making when > my boss raised my wages by 50% after one of my > designs landed him a $multi-million$ fleet retrofit > of the Lears . . . that was 28 years ago. > > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------) > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > ---------------------------------------- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vince-Himsl" <vhimsl(at)roadrunner.com>
Subject: Off line for a few days.
Date: May 29, 2008
Have a good vacation and thanks for your help on my project. Vince H. RV-8 Final Assembly in Hanger Moscow, ID. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 9:08 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off line for a few days. Dr. Dee and I are headed for a long weekend along the CA coast south of SF. I'm taking a computer along, to service my MP3 player and let me do a bit of writing. The good Dr. told me to leave that WiFi adapter home . . . Yes ma'am! No problem! Be back next Wednesday. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joe" <fran5sew(at)banyanol.com>
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
Date: May 29, 2008
Jeff,I assume that you have two power sources so that if one fails, then the other will carry the load. If that is true, then each circuit should be designed to carry the full load.Joe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bret Smith" <smithhb(at)tds.net>
Subject: Re: Bob's LLC
Date: May 29, 2008
Bob, Ed is correct on the HSA. Definitely worth looking in to. Bret Smith RV-9A "Canopy" Blue Ridge, GA www.FlightInnovations.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Mueller" <ed(at)muellerartcover.com> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 10:37 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bob's LLC > > > Hi Bob, > > Have you looked at an HSA (Health Savings Account) for health insurance? > I won't go into too many details and everyone's situation can vary, but > if you can afford the deductible early on if you get sick (worst case > situation), it will eventually start to add up to a significant amount of > money in your account instead of the insurance company's. Can work really > well for a healthy younger person. Also, I'm NOT in the insurance or > healthcare business, only a small business trying to stay afloat without > lining the insurance company's pockets. > > Ed > > > On May 29, 2008, at 12:01 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > >> >> >>> Finally something I might share back from 25 years as >>> business/bankruptcy/attorney. >>> >>> This is not legal advice, just thoughts. >>> >>> LLC is good first step, still some questions as to whether a corporation >>> (C or S) is the best for liability protection. >>> >>> More importantly here, be careful of putting all your eggs in one >>> basket. >>> >>> In general, I recommend keeping separate businesses in separate legal >>> entities. >>> >>> It would be a shame to have the OBAM business hit with a claim that >>> originated against the locksmith, for instance. >>> >>> Or when the big national company wants to buy the hvac company, having >>> to separate out the other businesses. Some tax issues there also. >>> >>> Mainly I worry about the cross liability issue. You don't want a single >>> point failure to ruin your entire economic plan. >>> >>> Regards, and thanks again for this internet resource, Skip (Florida) >> >> Thanks! Actually, the LLC is primarily a way to >> get me, my kids and ultimately my wife on a payroll >> for group health insurance. There will be few "eggs" >> of net worth. >> >> Practically all the value is embodied in skill-sets. >> It's also a way for my consulting income to be >> distributed the kids and taxed at their rates >> instead of mine. >> >> ML is a town of 2000 where one cannot make a living >> by being a specialist . . . so it's exceedingly >> unlikely that any of the specialty services would >> become attractive to a buyout candidate. We'll >> carry liability insurance . . . but only enough to >> buy us representation and not enough to make us >> a plum to pick. >> >> I'm becoming rather poor in a few weeks. My income >> is going to be less than what I was making when >> my boss raised my wages by 50% after one of my >> designs landed him a $multi-million$ fleet retrofit >> of the Lears . . . that was 28 years ago. >> >> >> Bob . . . >> >> ----------------------------------------) >> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) >> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) >> ( appearance of being right . . . ) >> ( ) >> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) >> ---------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike" <mlas(at)cox.net>
Subject: Wire Wrap Question
Date: May 29, 2008
Yes it is wing stitch lacing cord. It comes in waxed and un-waxed in both black and white. I like the black too, it looks nice and it=92s easier to cut off when removing. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Quillin Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 12:02 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Wire Wrap Question At 11:35 5/28/2008, you wrote: White gets dirty very easily, both during tying and the spool just kicking around on the workbench. Unless you have an anally clean work area, get black. Regards, Greg Young Oooooh, I just might fit. I keep my white in a ziplock bag... Also keeps assorted dust, grit and gunk from sticking to the wax and making it less sticky. And I do wash my hands before using the white. BTW, I think it's called lacing cord, not wire wrap, which could be confused with a method of wiring. Ron Q. "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu tion 10/2/2007 11:10 AM 10/2/2007 11:10 AM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joe" <fran5sew(at)banyanol.com>
Subject: Re: E-Bus Diode
Date: May 29, 2008
Glenn,These bridge diodes are used in Z drawings because they are mechanically strong and easily mounted. The bridge diode contains more than one diode inside of the case. You can either use one of the internal diodes or two of them in parallel as B&C recommends. Two diodes in parallel might have the advantage of sharing the current flow and of having a backup in case one diode opens up. But just one of the diodes inside of the bridge rectifier case is more than adequate for the task. Just make sure that the polarity is correct. You could test the diode with a continuity light to make sure that the current flows in the direction that you want it to. Joe ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 29, 2008
From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Off Topic? Scratch build your own autopilot
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > >> >> >> Sam Hoskins wrote: >>> FYI - I have a very unusual auction going on Ebay for a >>> scratch-build autopilot, and a story that goes with it. Here's the >>> auction link: >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190225235720 >>> <http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190225235720> >>> >>> >>> If that doesn't work just plug 190225235720 into the Ebay search box. >>> >>> Sorry for the shameless plug. >>> >>> Sam Hoskins >>> Murphysboro, IL >> >> Hey Sam, >> I actually have one those that came out of a T-18 (wrecked in a >> storm) and there's another in a homebuilt of pre-WW-II Philippine >> origin here on my home field. >> >> Unfortunately, I can't find the docs for it. How much to scan & email >> the docs? > > I think I have a set of the plans. They were offered in a > series of articles in Sport Aviation. If I get time > I'll scan them and post to the website. > > Actually, these have more historical value than practical. > Nowadays, one might use a piezo rotational-rate sensor > as opposed to building the fluid-jet device that Doug concocted. > But the fluid-jet rate sensor has a certain elegance of > thought behind it that I find fascinating. > > Further, while Doug offered a means by which one could craft > a DIY flux-gate magnetometer to derive magnetic heading, > I think I would opt for getting true or magnetic course off > a GPS engine. > > Having said all that, it's interesting to peer into the > mind of Doug Garner. I had the pleasure of conversation with > him over several years attendance at OSH. He possessed one > of those rare intellects that could sift through piles of > simple-ideas and past recipes for success to come up with > new and better ways to do it . . . or techniques that can > be accomplished in a hobbyist's electronics shop. > > A true teacher. > > I just found the folder where I'd stored Doug's work > and discovered that it also contains a data > package by a Mr. Don Hewes who also did a manual on > home built a/p systems. Don references Doug's work > and offers some interesting variations on a theme tailored > to tools, materials and techniques available to us about > 1980 when this work was getting started. > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------) > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > ---------------------------------------- Great! My interest is primarily historical/nostalgic, as well. The autopilot was in the 1st homebuilt I purchased after getting my pilot's license. While I know that new technology is superior, I suspect that the rate sensor Mr. Garner created from dirt-cheap parts was at least as good as the then current technology & many orders of magnitude less expensive. If you can post to the web site, that would be great. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave VanLanen" <davevanlanen(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Types Of Heat Shrink Tubing
Date: May 29, 2008
In shopping online for heat shrink tubing, I noticed that there are many different materials used in their manufacture - polyolefin, neoprene, PVC, Kynar, Viton, etc. Does the material type matter? Are there any that I should avoid? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 29, 2008
From: Bob White <bob@bob-white.com>
Subject: Re: Types Of Heat Shrink Tubing
"Dave VanLanen" wrote: > In shopping online for heat shrink tubing, I noticed that there are many > different materials used in their manufacture - polyolefin, neoprene, PVC, > Kynar, Viton, etc. Does the material type matter? Are there any that I > should avoid? > The two most common varieties are polyolefin and PVC. The PVC shrinks at a lower temperature and may even shrink a little sitting around. The polyolefin shrinks at a higher temperature, and will usually be slightly larger than it's nominal size until you shrink it. The PVC is quite a bit cheaper. I haven't used any of the others. I believe Kynar is for higher temperature use. I don't know what special purpose the others might be used for. I did run across this web site which briefly describes several different types: http://www.insulationplastics.com/heatst.htm#202 Bob W. -- N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/cables/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 29, 2008
Subject: Heat Shrink Tubing
From: James H Nelson <rv9jim(at)juno.com>
Dave, Polyolefin tubing that I got from McMaster Carr. P/N 7856k133, 1/8" shrinks to 1/16". I used a bunch of this. If you are just starting out, I would order at least 50'. If you have a glass panel and other things on your panel, then I would order 75' at a minimum. Remember that you will use about 2.5" to 3" on each wire. ID at each end. It surprised me how much I used. I think I used around 100'. I had to order twice to have enough for the job. I also got the next size up but I used very little of it. Maybe 5' or so. Jim Nelson N15JN RV9-A Ready to fly (checking engine tomorrow) ____________________________________________________________ Click for online loan, fast & no lender fee, approval today http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m3WL26oQTuKSt19r5pFUpo7DwJjM1gfTggP4yFTSW11WAKN/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Types Of Heat Shrink Tubing
Date: May 29, 2008
From: Etienne Phillips <etienne.phillips(at)gmail.com>
On 29 May 2008, at 10:18 PM, Bob White wrote: > The two most common varieties are polyolefin and PVC. The PVC shrinks > at a lower temperature and may even shrink a little sitting around. > The polyolefin shrinks at a higher temperature, and will usually be > slightly larger than it's nominal size until you shrink it. The > PVC is > quite a bit cheaper. > Hi all I was wondering about this very question this afternoon... Isn't it a bad idea to use PVC in aircraft wiring - even if it's just for labelling? 100' of PVC is not an insignificant of cyanide- generating plastic when it catches fire... I'm currently using PVC all over my wiring harness, but after reading about the dangers of PVC insulation, I'm definitely chucking it out when the panel is re-born! Etienne ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Henry Trzeciakowski" <hammer408(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: fuseholder location
Date: May 29, 2008
I purchassed my from all places Dogbyte Computer, in Marietta, Ga; www.dogbytecomputer.com. It's a Blue Sea Marine Blade Fuse Block - 12 circuit-No Negitive Bus, with cover (#5029).They also have a fuse block with a negitive bus. I opted for no negitive bus for I'm using B&C's Ground Bus architecture. I mounted mine just to the left of my battery (building a 9A) and mounted with 4 #10 screws with nutplates. Worked for me... Henry ----- Original Message ----- From: <longg(at)pjm.com> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:51 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: fuseholder location > > I'll be doing the same, but not too low as to absorb heat from the > exhaust. There are several fuse holders sold which have stand off mounts > that would have good application on a firewall and still allow air > circulation behind them. I like the durability of the B & C blocks, but > they lack a stand off mount and covers. A good cover is important to > keep out dirt/oil from the engine. A quick search on Google will reveal > a number of nice fuse block holders for all weather use. > > I can't imagine an issue with installing on aircraft what is internal to > millions of automobiles sitting in boiling NYC traffic day after day > with no altercation save the massive CO2 release. > > I believe the trick is to buy a well made product, perhaps for marine > use which is really heavy duty and further resistant to heat, dirt and > the like. > > If anyone finds a good link, please pass it on. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry > McMillan > Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 8:06 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: fuseholder location > > > --> > > I'm planning to do the same thing, mounting small 6-circuit marine fuse > panels for the FADEC circuits relatively low down where the at-rest heat > at > least will be lower. Given that many modern cars have fuse/relay blocks > mounted in the engine compartment where it gets at least as hot as an > aircraft I expect them to be reliable but like you I would be interested > to > know if anyone has knowledge of heat problems with quality components on > the > engine side. > > Terry McMillan > > > >From: revenson(at)comcast.net (Roger Evenson) > >Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > >To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > >Subject: AeroElectric-List: fuseholder location > >Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 23:01:38 +0000 > > > >Evenson) > > > >Any reason to not put my fuse holders on the engine side of the > >firewall? > > > >Is the heat too much? > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: May 29, 2008
Subject: Re: fuseholder location
Good Evening longg, For What It Is Worth, Beechcraft has mounted a fuse block on the firewall aft of the engine in their Bonanzas for at least thirty years. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 5/29/2008 7:57:38 A.M. Central Daylight Time, longg(at)pjm.com writes: I'll be doing the same, but not too low as to absorb heat from the exhaust. There are several fuse holders sold which have stand off mounts that would have good application on a firewall and still allow air circulation behind them. I like the durability of the B & C blocks, but they lack a stand off mount and covers. A good cover is important to keep out dirt/oil from the engine. A quick search on Google will reveal a number of nice fuse block holders for all weather use. I can't imagine an issue with installing on aircraft what is internal to millions of automobiles sitting in boiling NYC traffic day after day with no altercation save the massive CO2 release. I believe the trick is to buy a well made product, perhaps for marine use which is really heavy duty and further resistant to heat, dirt and the like. **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 29, 2008
Subject: Re: Types Of Heat Shrink Tubing
From: Ron Quillin <rjquillin(at)gmail.com>
At 12:50 5/29/2008, you wrote: >In shopping online for heat shrink tubing, I >noticed that there are many different materials >used in their manufacture ' polyolefin, >neoprene, PVC, Kynar, Viton, etc. Does the >material type matter? Are there any that I should avoid? PVC insulated cable is generally not used in aircraft, nor should PVC shrink be used. Polyolefin is of higher quality. Kynar, aka polyvinylidene fluoride (PDVF) is generally required for mission critical applications and where outgassing is an issue, but is a bit less flexible but much more resistant to abrasion and splitting. Use clear so the joint can be inspected, unless you need to hide your work. Most shrink is 2:1, but 3:1 is available. Here is a link to the Bible of harness assembly http://tinyurl.com/5y5jkz Good stuff starts around Chapter 9, pdf page 43. Another brief link to standards http://workmanship.nasa.gov/lib/insp/2%20books/links/sections/files/appendix .pdf Ron Q. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "bob noffs" <icubob(at)newnorth.net>
Subject: Re: Harbor Freight 93258 charger evaluation
Date: May 29, 2008
bob, sounds like this would be an acceptacle substitute for a $25 maintainer. thanks for digging into this. will be interested to see what the cheaper unit does if you get the chance. if you want to dump the unit you bought and tested , contact me off list and i will send you $13 for the unit and pay your shipping charges bob noffs icubob(at)newnorth.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 10:55 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Harbor Freight 93258 charger evaluation > > > Got over to HF late last week and picked up a couple > of the latest and cheapest chargers. The first one I > had a chance to evaluate was the 93258, 1.5 "on board" > charger. > > Here's the recharge profile I recorded . . . > > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery_Chargers/HF_Chargers/HF93258_1.jpg > > > This is a bit of a pig for 1.5A charger. Probably wouldn't > want to mount it on your airplane. However, it is nicely > built and would probably be just fine for wheel or water- > borne vehicles. > > It's NOT a battery maintainer. No top-off dwell. Further, > it oscillates between about 13.0 volts and 14.0 volts with > relatively short busts of input energy necessary to push > the battery terminal voltage back up to 14.0 volts. > > An excellent buy at $13.00 but not the best we know how > to do with maintainers. > > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------) > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > ---------------------------------------- > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
Subject: fuseholder location
Date: May 30, 2008
5/30/2008 Hello longg, You wrote: "If anyone finds a good link, please pass it on." Check this out: http://bluesea.com/ 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." ------------------------------------------------ Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: fuseholder location From: <longg(at)pjm.com> I'll be doing the same, but not too low as to absorb heat from the exhaust. There are several fuse holders sold which have stand off mounts that would have good application on a firewall and still allow air circulation behind them. I like the durability of the B & C blocks, but they lack a stand off mount and covers. A good cover is important to keep out dirt/oil from the engine. A quick search on Google will reveal a number of nice fuse block holders for all weather use. I can't imagine an issue with installing on aircraft what is internal to millions of automobiles sitting in boiling NYC traffic day after day with no altercation save the massive CO2 release. I believe the trick is to buy a well made product, perhaps for marine use which is really heavy duty and further resistant to heat, dirt and the like. If anyone finds a good link, please pass it on. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Testing SD-8 Circuit
From: "rockyjs" <rockyjs(at)mchsi.com>
Date: May 30, 2008
I searched, but could not find the answer. I'm all wired and ready to close the open access that I have to all my SD-8 circuit wiring. I'm following Z-13 and would really like to test this standby alternator circuit before it becomes difficult to repair, replace or modify. Is there anything wrong with me hooking up a battery on a small charger into the leads that are normally fed from the SD-8 regulator to test the relay and associated wiring? I believe the battery on a charger would act like the SD-8/regulator combination. Or is there another way to accomplish this task that I'm overlooking? Thanks Rocky Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185582#185582 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: As it's quiet right now, can I check a few things......
From: "ianwilson2" <ianwilson2(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Jun 01, 2008
I'm working on a version of Z-20 for my Jab/X-Air and as I'm an electrical newbie I wanted to run a couple of things by the group to check that I'm staying on track:- On the Power Master Switch am I right in thinking that the 2-10 has it's first ON for just the battery and the second ON for Battery + Alternator? Also, in the Z Figures, where there is no recommended wire size for the ground wire what should I do? For example from the ALT OV Disconnect Relay to FWL G2 and also from the Crowbar Over Voltage module to PNL G3? I'm guessing that for all of the rest I'd just use the same AWG size as I use from the main bus? Many thanks in advance. Ian Wilson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185722#185722 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 01, 2008
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon(at)CRUZCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: As it's quiet right now, can I check a few things......
On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 10:33 AM, ianwilson2 wrote: > ... > On the Power Master Switch am I right in thinking that the 2-10 has it's > first ON for just the battery and the second ON for Battery + Alternator? Correct. > Also, in the Z Figures, where there is no recommended wire size for the > ground wire what should I do? For example from the ALT OV Disconnect Relay > to FWL G2 and also from the Crowbar Over Voltage module to PNL G3? I'm > guessing that for all of the rest I'd just use the same AWG size as I use > from the main bus? > You're on the right track. In general, the downstream ground side of any device should have the same wire size as the positive input side. In general, the theory is that there will be as much current downstream of the device as goes into it. So yes, on the Z-20 ALT OV ground use 22 AWG, same as spec'd on the input to the relay coil. On the crowbar ground, use the same 22 AWG. Why? Well, another (sort of backwards) way to check your wire size is to look at the specified breaker/fuse on the circuit, if there is one. Here, your ALT OV relay is protected by a 5A breaker and the crowbar is designed to trip that breaker when there's over voltage, thus de-energizing the relay coil and disconnecting the ALT. Because the breaker is there to protect wire from smoking and breaking, leading to shorts, sparks, etc., your wire size should carry more than the breaker or fuse. The 5A breaker will trip before 22 AWG will fry. To sum up, if your device draws 3A, you'll probably want a 5A breaker (next size up) and at least 22 AWG wire. (There's never an electrical problem using bigger wire than necessary -- "just" the weight penalty.) Ron ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Jones" <djones(at)northboone.net>
Subject: Gruber batteries
Date: Jun 01, 2008
http://www.gruberpower.com/gruberpower/advertising/batteries/cutsheets/58 -pc-680.asp Could this work as the same as the odyssey PC-680? It appears to be more amp hours and CCA,same size and weight and helps out on the pocket book. I can't find out if it is a RG type.It appears that it will fly upside down for those so inclined. Jonsey ________________________________________________________________________________
From: luckymacy(at)comcast.net (lucky)
Subject: Re: Gruber batteries
Date: Jun 01, 2008
Good call. I think you are really on to something. Not withstanding Gruber calls this battery the pc 680 too, their specs pretty much prove one is trying to be a direct replacement for the other. They are both AGM type and physically pretty much identical. Here's Gruber's specs: Equivalent to: UB22-12NE Gruber Part Number 58-GPS-22-12NE Electrical Specifications StyleVoltageAmp/HourAmp/Hour AGM12 Volt22 AH420 Amps Dimensions LengthWidthHeightWeight 7.00"3.00"6.60"14 lb ChemistrySLA The state-of-the-art lead-acid battery is the valve-regulated type (sometimes called "sealed" or maintenance-free), which fixes the acid electrolyte in a gel or in an absorptive fiberglass mat. The advantage of this design is that the battery needs no water additions, can be operated in any position, and can be used in close proximity to people and sensitive equipment. Additional benefits: maintenance-free,sealed no-leak design, higher cranking amps, lower self-discharge, greater vibration resistance, heavy duty, no-corrosion terminals and here's Odysseys: http://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc680.htm PC 680 Specs: 680 cranking amps for 5 seconds 595 cranking amps for 10 seconds 525 cranking amps for 20 seconds 17 amp hours Short circuit current over 1800A 25 minute reserve capacity with 25amp load Female brass terminal w/M6 SS bolt Length 7 1/16" Width 3" Height 6 9/16" Weighs less than 15 lbs Odyssey design: 2 year full warranty Rugged Drycell sealed design Military grade Vibration resistant 60% more starting power Deep discharge reserve power 2 year storage life 8-12 year design life Can be mounted flat or upright The Odyssey pc 680 is a AGM battery. From their FQT web page: Are these gel cells? No, the ODYSSEY is NOT a gel cell. It is an absorbed electrolyte type battery, meaning there is no free acid inside the battery; all the acid is kept absorbed in the glass mat separators. These separators serve to keep the positive and negative plates apart. What is the difference between gel cell and AGM? The key difference between the gel cell and the absorbed glass mat (AGM) is that in the AGM cell all the electrolyte is in the separator, whereas in the gel cell the acid is in the cells in a gel form. If the ODYSSEY battery were to split open, there would be no acid spillage! That is why we call the ODYSSEY a Drycell battery -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Dennis Jones" <djones(at)northboone.net> http://www.gruberpower.com/gruberpower/advertising/batteries/cutsheets/58-pc-680.asp Could this work as the same as the odyssey PC-680? It appears to be more amp hours and CCA,same size and weight and helps out on the pocket book. I can't find out if it is a RG type.It appears that it will fly upside down for those so inclined. Jonsey
Good call.  I  think you are really on to something.  Not withstanding Gruber calls this battery the pc 680 too, their specs pretty much prove one is trying to be a direct replacement for the other.  They are both AGM type and physically pretty much identical.  Here's Gruber's specs:
 

Equivalent to:

UB22-12NE

Gruber Part Number

58-GPS-22-12NE

Electrical Specifications

Style Voltage Amp/HourAmp/Hour
AGM 12 Volt 22 AH 420 Amps

Dimensions

Length Width Height Weight
7.00" 3.00" 6.60" 14 lb
 
 
Chemistry SLA

The state-of-the-art lead-acid battery is the valve-regulated type (sometimes called "sealed" or maintenance-free), which fixes the acid electrolyte in a gel or in an absorptive fiberglass mat. The advantage of this design is that the battery needs no water additions, can be operated in any position, and can be used in close proximity to people and sensitive equipment. Additional benefits: maintenance-free,sealed no-leak design, higher cranking amps, lower self-discharge, greater vibration resistance, heavy duty, no-corrosion terminals
 
PC 680 Specs:
  • 680 cranking amps for 5 seconds
  • 595 cranking amps for 10 seconds
  • 525 cranking amps for 20 seconds
  • 17 amp hours
  • Short circuit current over 1800A
  • 25 minute reserve capacity with 25amp load
  • Female brass terminal w/M6 SS bolt
  • Length 7 1/16"
  • Width 3"
  • Height 6 9/16"
  • Weighs less than 15 lbs

 

Odyssey design:

  • 2 year full warranty
  • Rugged Drycell sealed design
  • Military grade
  • Vibration resistant
  • 60% more starting power
  • Deep discharge reserve power
  • 2 year storage life
  • 8-12 year design life
  • Can be mounted flat or upright
<DIV>The Odyssey pc 680 is a AGM battery.  From their FQT web page:</DIV>

Are these gel cells?

No, the ODYSSEY is NOT a gel cell. It is an absorbed electrolyte type

battery, meaning there is no free acid inside the battery; all the acid is

kept absorbed in the glass mat separators. These separators serve to

keep the positive and negative plates apart.

What is the difference between gel cell and AGM?

The key difference between the gel cell and the absorbed glass mat

(AGM) is that in the AGM cell all the electrolyte is in the separator,

whereas in the gel cell the acid is in the cells in a gel form. If the

ODYSSEY battery were to split open, there would be no acid spillage!

That is why we call the ODYSSEY a Drycell battery

Could this work as the same as the odyssey PC-680? It appears to be more amp hours and CCA,same size and weight and helps out on the pocket book. I can't find out if it is a RG type.It appears that it will fly upside down for those so inclined.
 
Jonsey

      
      
      

      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry L. Tompkins, P.E." <tompkinsl(at)integra.net>
Subject: SD-8 vs. SD-20 choice
Date: Jun 01, 2008
Although I already should have known, I was recently reminded that, as a permanent magnet device, the SD-8 standby alternator is producing output whenever it is rotating. Looking on the B&C website, I determined that the PMR1C regulator is a heat sink for the 100-120 watts produced when the alternator is not delivering current to the endurance bus. So Question #1 is whether the SD-8 is "wearing" to a greater extent than the SD-20 since it is producing rated load all the time one is operating the engine at cruise rpm? If Question #1 is yes, then Question #2 is: Does the fact that the SD-8 is producing output and wearing all the time make it more likely to be an electrical noise source or more likely to become an electrical noise source (at an earlier time in its life cycle) than the SD-20? Although I most likely don't need 20A backup capability for my endurance bus, I would like to minimize any electrical noise potential. Thanks in advance to those who are more knowledgeable than this electrically challenged mech. engr. Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "S. Ramirez" <simon(at)synchronousdesign.com>
Subject: Gruber batteries
Date: Jun 01, 2008
Dennis, it's probably comparable to the Odyssey PC-680, i.e., same size, weight and performance specs. It may or may not be comparable in service life due to internal construction and materials used. The best way to determine this is for enough of us to use it and report back. In the circles I run in, the Odyssey PC-680 is an incredible battery that provides excellent performance and provides long service life. It uses virgin lead and great quality control to accomplish this. I myself use the PC-925L, which is a bigger battery, to crank over my O-320 and provide longer battery life in case of engine/alternator out. It is one heck of a battery. It replaced a Concord CB-25 and there is absolutely no comparison. I'm not putting down the Gruber Power or any other vendor. If anyone has great testimony or experience with them, please speak up. We can always use excellent products to help us all choose better products. All I'm saying above is that Odyssey is a known good vendor and great product, but no one really knows anything about the Gruber unless someone speaks up. Simon Copyright C 2008 From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dennis Jones Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 4:47 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Gruber batteries http://www.gruberpower.com/gruberpower/advertising/batteries/cutsheets/58-pc -680.asp Could this work as the same as the odyssey PC-680? It appears to be more amp hours and CCA,same size and weight and helps out on the pocket book. I can't find out if it is a RG type.It appears that it will fly upside down for those so inclined. Jonsey ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 01, 2008
From: Steve Johnson <rvbuilder927(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Alternator switch/breaker wiring
I am in the process of wiring my Plane Power alternator and I am wondering of it matters in what sequence the 5 amp breaker and the switch are placed.  I currently have the field wire from the alternator connected to the breaker, then the breaker to the switch (DPDT), then to the bus, as I believe is shown on drawing Z-11      ALT FIELD-BREAKER-SWITCH-BUS    The Plane Power schematic shows the field wire connected to the switch, then the switch to the breaker, then to the bus.      ALT FIELD-SWITCH-BREAKER-BUS   Does it matter from a practical and safety standpoint?   Thanks. Ward Morris     ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Jones" <djones(at)northboone.net>
Subject: Batteries
Date: Jun 02, 2008
O.K. how about this. Interstate has a wide selection. For example FAYTX20 18AH 270CCA 11 lbs. $104.95 or the other end FAYTX24HL 21AH 350CCA 14 lbs. $132.95. Unless Interstate batteries are junk these batt. numbers smoke an Odyssey. That's a 20% increase in AH and over 50% increase in CCA for the same weight and approximately the same price. Or have a little more power and save over 25% in weight plus your pocket book. There about the same size overall compared with each other and the other types including the Odyssey. And they are AGM type. Drive across town buy the thing and if you have problems you go back and talk to them in person. No internet return headaches. Jonsey ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 02, 2008
From: "Sam Hoskins" <sam.hoskins(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Batteries
I believe Bob would say to do the tests and gather the data. Sam On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 12:42 AM, Dennis Jones wrote: > O.K. how about this. Interstate has a wide selection. For example FAYTX20 > 18AH 270CCA 11 lbs. $104.95 or the other end FAYTX24HL 21AH 350CCA 14 lbs. > $132.95. Unless Interstate batteries are junk these batt. numbers smoke an > Odyssey. That's a 20% increase in AH and over 50% increase in CCA for the > same weight and approximately the same price. Or have a little more power > and save over 25% in weight plus your pocket book. There about the same size > overall compared with each other and the other types including the Odyssey. > And they are AGM type. Drive across town buy the thing and if you have > problems you go back and talk to them in person. No internet return > headaches. > > Jonsey > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 02, 2008
Subject: Re: Batteries
From: simon(at)synchronousdesign.com
And report findings back to the group. This will take several years if the batteries are worth their weight in lead. It's worth it, though, because we need new known good vendors of these new technology AGM batteries. Interstate used to be my vendor of choice for car batteries long ago when they had superior batteries. Then they started carrying Optima batteries, which were six gell cells wrapped in cylindrical fashion. They were military technology fresh out to the civilian world. I've had them in two of my three cars for about five years now with no problems until last month. One of them gave out, so I replaced it with an Odyssey flat plate AGM cell. Although many have great success with the PC-680 and PC-925L for years, I'm using a different Odyssey battery (automotive) for this application, but it uses the same technology - flat plate instead of circular plate like the Optima uses. I am hoping it delivers the advertised 8-10 years instead of the 5 years Optima delivered. Simon in Florida > I believe Bob would say to do the tests and gather the data. > > Sam > > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 12:42 AM, Dennis Jones > wrote: > >> O.K. how about this. Interstate has a wide selection. For example >> FAYTX20 18AH 270CCA 11 lbs. $104.95 or the other end FAYTX24HL >> 21AH 350CCA 14 lbs. $132.95. Unless Interstate batteries are junk >> these batt. numbers smoke an Odyssey. That's a 20% increase in AH >> and over 50% increase in CCA for the same weight and approximately >> the same price. Or have a little more power and save over 25% in >> weight plus your pocket book. There about the same size overall >> compared with each other and the other types including the >> Odyssey. And they are AGM type. Drive across town buy the thing >> and if you have problems you go back and talk to them in person. >> No internet return headaches. >> >> Jonsey ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terry McMillan" <terryml5c2p6(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Alternator switch/breaker wiring
Date: Jun 02, 2008
>From a safety viewpoint, you should locate the breaker as close to the source of power as possible. The field circuit does not generate power at the alternator end, it absorbs power from the bus,i.e. the source is the bus. The breaker is necessary both because the wiring from the bus to the field must be protected against inadvertent faults to ground anywhere along its length, but because some overvoltage protection circuits intentionally short the field to ground to take the alternator causing the overvoltage off line as quickly as possible. Terry McMillan >From: Steve Johnson <rvbuilder927(at)yahoo.com> >Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >To: "aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com" >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator switch/breaker wiring >Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:17:14 -0700 (PDT) > >I am in the process of wiring my Plane Power alternator and I am wondering >of it matters in what sequence the 5 amp breaker and the switch are >placed.  I currently have the field wire from the alternator connected >to the breaker, then the breaker to the switch (DPDT), then to the bus, as >I believe is shown on drawing Z-11 >  >   ALT FIELD-BREAKER-SWITCH-BUS >  > The Plane Power schematic shows the field wire connected to the >switch, then the switch to the breaker, then to the bus.  >  >  ALT FIELD-SWITCH-BREAKER-BUS >  >Does it matter from a practical and safety standpoint? >  >Thanks. >Ward Morris >  >  > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>
Date: Jun 02, 2008
Subject: SD-8 vs. SD-20 choice
I'm in the same boat Larry being an ME.. In practice I have never heard any radio noise form the SD8. I would also p ut the output nearer 12A rather than the 8A it is rated for. Frank ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr ic-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry L. Tompkins, P.E. Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 3:52 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 vs. SD-20 choice Although I already should have known, I was recently reminded that, as a pe rmanent magnet device, the SD-8 standby alternator is producing output when ever it is rotating. Looking on the B&C website, I determined that the PMR1C regulator is a heat sink for the 100-120 watts produced when the alternator is not delivering current to the endurance bus. So Question #1 is whether the SD-8 is "wearing" to a greater extent than th e SD-20 since it is producing rated load all the time one is operating the engine at cruise rpm? If Question #1 is yes, then Question #2 is: Does the fact that the SD-8 is producing output and wearing all the time make it more likely to be an elec trical noise source or more likely to become an electrical noise source (at an earlier time in its life cycle) than the SD-20? Although I most likely don't need 20A backup capability for my endurance bu s, I would like to minimize any electrical noise potential. Thanks in advance to those who are more knowledgeable than this electricall y challenged mech. engr. Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 02, 2008
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Batteries
Dennis Jones wrote: > O.K. how about this. Interstate has a wide selection. For example FAYTX20 18AH 270CCA 11 lbs. $104.95 or the other end FAYTX24HL 21AH 350CCA 14 lbs. $132.95. Unless Interstate batteries are junk these batt. numbers smoke an Odyssey. That's a 20% increase in AH and over 50% increase in CCA for the same weight and approximately the same price. Or have a little more power and save over 25% in weight plus your pocket book. There about the same size overall compared with each other and the other types including the Odyssey. And they are AGM type. Drive across town buy the thing and if you have problems you go back and talk to them in person. No internet return headaches. > > Jonsey > Some simple physics here. There are very few tricks in building a lead-acid battery. You don't get more AH or CCA for free. About the only way to increase either value without increasing the battery size is to somehow get more contact area between the lead and the acid. The only way to accomplish that is to squeeze both the lead plate and the mat between them thinner. CCA can theoretically be negatively effected if the lead gets to thin, but that won't realistically ever happen in a battery robust enough to be marketable. Unless Interstate has some packaging techniques that support and protect the lead in their batteries, they will necessarily be less robust. Personally, I would buy the Interstate, mount it to the airplane with shock absorbing materials (sit it on a rubber mat?), and expect to change it every two years. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 02, 2008
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: SD-8 vs. SD-20 choice
Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: > I'm in the same boat Larry being an ME.. > > In practice I have never heard any radio noise form the SD8. I would also put the output nearer 12A rather than the 8A it is rated for. > > Frank > > ________________________________ > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry L. Tompkins, P.E. > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 3:52 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 vs. SD-20 choice > > Although I already should have known, I was recently reminded that, as a permanent magnet device, the SD-8 standby alternator is producing output whenever it is rotating. > > Looking on the B&C website, I determined that the PMR1C regulator is a heat sink for the 100-120 watts produced when the alternator is not delivering current to the endurance bus. > There are switching regulators available which run cool, and don't waste power. Whether the extra cost and complexity is worth saving 100W of electricity is debatable. > So Question #1 is whether the SD-8 is "wearing" to a greater extent than the SD-20 since it is producing rated load all the time one is operating the engine at cruise rpm? > Maybe. Maybe not. You have some magnets (that are basically rated to last forever) that are spinning around a coil of wire, pushing the electrons out one side. You can get more electrons out by increasing the strength of the pusher, or increasing the number of pushees. The SD-20 could have more coils of wires, or magnets, or larger magnets, or some combination of all three. If there were just more coils of wire, then the magnets are being asked to push harder, and their expected life would drop from "infinity" to "infinity minus something". > If Question #1 is yes, then Question #2 is: Does the fact that the SD-8 is producing output and wearing all the time make it more likely to be an electrical noise source or more likely to become an electrical noise source (at an earlier time in its life cycle) than the SD-20? > > It would actually make LESS noise. The only way for it to "wear" would be for the permanent magnets to loose their magnetism. At that point, the generator isn't able to push as many electrons and the noise comes from the electrons getting pushed around. > Although I most likely don't need 20A backup capability for my endurance bus, I would like to minimize any electrical noise potential. > Then the 8A version is your best bet. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 02, 2008
From: Mike Kimball <mkimball(at)gci.net>
Subject: Batteries
FWIW I am a big fan of my 925 Odyssey. Small in size and a really cool custom tray for it to sit in. Sits way in back of my Super Rebel and spins my 10:1 Chevy 350 with no problem even after months of sitting without receiving a charge. It's about 4, maybe 5 years old now. No sign of degradation. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Christley Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 8:34 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Batteries Dennis Jones wrote: > O.K. how about this. Interstate has a wide selection. For example FAYTX20 18AH 270CCA 11 lbs. $104.95 or the other end FAYTX24HL 21AH 350CCA 14 lbs. $132.95. Unless Interstate batteries are junk these batt. numbers smoke an Odyssey. That's a 20% increase in AH and over 50% increase in CCA for the same weight and approximately the same price. Or have a little more power and save over 25% in weight plus your pocket book. There about the same size overall compared with each other and the other types including the Odyssey. And they are AGM type. Drive across town buy the thing and if you have problems you go back and talk to them in person. No internet return headaches. > > Jonsey > Some simple physics here. There are very few tricks in building a lead-acid battery. You don't get more AH or CCA for free. About the only way to increase either value without increasing the battery size is to somehow get more contact area between the lead and the acid. The only way to accomplish that is to squeeze both the lead plate and the mat between them thinner. CCA can theoretically be negatively effected if the lead gets to thin, but that won't realistically ever happen in a battery robust enough to be marketable. Unless Interstate has some packaging techniques that support and protect the lead in their batteries, they will necessarily be less robust. Personally, I would buy the Interstate, mount it to the airplane with shock absorbing materials (sit it on a rubber mat?), and expect to change it every two years. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 02, 2008
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: SD-8 vs. SD-20 choice
Are we sure the regulator sinks the "unused" wattage from the generator? If so, it's putting a full-output load on the engine at all times, robbing perhaps 1/4 hp - minor but not good. I would have thought the generator with no electrical load is not drawing mechanical power from the engine, but what do I know?! I have an SD-8 sitting on the shelf since SnF 2006 that I have never gotten around to installing. Maybe I should let it go to the highest reasonable offer and buy another if/when I ever get to finishing my fully redundant all-glass IFR panel for the RV. Ditto for the Garmin 340 audio panel - it's not seeing much use on the shelf either. -Bill B On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 12:51 PM, Ernest Christley wrote: > echristley(at)nc.rr.com> > > Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: > >> I'm in the same boat Larry being an ME.. >> >> In practice I have never heard any radio noise form the SD8. I would also >> put the output nearer 12A rather than the 8A it is rated for. >> >> Frank >> >> ________________________________ >> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: >> owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry L. >> Tompkins, P.E. >> Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 3:52 PM >> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 vs. SD-20 choice >> >> Although I already should have known, I was recently reminded that, as a >> permanent magnet device, the SD-8 standby alternator is producing output >> whenever it is rotating. >> Looking on the B&C website, I determined that the PMR1C regulator is a >> heat sink for the 100-120 watts produced when the alternator is not >> delivering current to the endurance bus. >> >> > There are switching regulators available which run cool, and don't waste > power. Whether the extra cost and complexity is worth saving 100W of > electricity is debatable. > >> So Question #1 is whether the SD-8 is "wearing" to a greater extent than >> the SD-20 since it is producing rated load all the time one is operating the >> engine at cruise rpm? >> >> > Maybe. Maybe not. You have some magnets (that are basically rated to last > forever) that are spinning around a coil of wire, pushing the electrons out > one side. You can get more electrons out by increasing the strength of the > pusher, or increasing the number of pushees. The SD-20 could have more > coils of wires, or magnets, or larger magnets, or some combination of all > three. If there were just more coils of wire, then the magnets are being > asked to push harder, and their expected life would drop from "infinity" to > "infinity minus something". > >> If Question #1 is yes, then Question #2 is: Does the fact that the SD-8 is >> producing output and wearing all the time make it more likely to be an >> electrical noise source or more likely to become an electrical noise source >> (at an earlier time in its life cycle) than the SD-20? >> >> >> > It would actually make LESS noise. The only way for it to "wear" would be > for the permanent magnets to loose their magnetism. At that point, the > generator isn't able to push as many electrons and the noise comes from the > electrons getting pushed around. > >> Although I most likely don't need 20A backup capability for my endurance >> bus, I would like to minimize any electrical noise potential. >> >> > Then the 8A version is your best bet. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Previous Master solonoid clicking
Date: Jun 02, 2008
I sent the board in the other day. It should be waiting when you return from your vacation. It will be interesting to see what you find. Thanks, Bill B -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 2:07 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Previous Master solonoid clicking --> > > >Bob, >Thanks for the evaluation/repair offer. I will send it in, but please >remember that you only supplied the board. I supplied the components. >You don't owe me any free repair! But I do owe you a "grade" on your efforts with a goal of honing your skills. It also affords me a data point which may have future value. I've fielded a ton of incoming cabbages and tomatoes for allegedly faulty design and/or advice . . . all based on situations about which I was honorably skeptical but unable to defend for lack of hands-on experience. This was in spite of life-time, money-back guarantees so I suspect the allegations were bogus. But my warranty extends to both ideas and product so we're doing each other a favor here my friend. >The engine, with this module working, has been running on the ground >for probably 2 hours. I am not ready for flight yet. Understand. Let's see if we can figure out what's going on. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Previous Master solonoid clicking
Date: Jun 02, 2008
I sent the board in the other day. It should be waiting when you return from your vacation. It will be interesting to see what you find. Thanks, Bill B -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 2:07 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Previous Master solonoid clicking --> > > >Bob, >Thanks for the evaluation/repair offer. I will send it in, but please >remember that you only supplied the board. I supplied the components. >You don't owe me any free repair! But I do owe you a "grade" on your efforts with a goal of honing your skills. It also affords me a data point which may have future value. I've fielded a ton of incoming cabbages and tomatoes for allegedly faulty design and/or advice . . . all based on situations about which I was honorably skeptical but unable to defend for lack of hands-on experience. This was in spite of life-time, money-back guarantees so I suspect the allegations were bogus. But my warranty extends to both ideas and product so we're doing each other a favor here my friend. >The engine, with this module working, has been running on the ground >for probably 2 hours. I am not ready for flight yet. Understand. Let's see if we can figure out what's going on. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 02, 2008
From: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Garmin SL 30 install manual ?
Hi all, Anyone happen to have a Garmin SL 30 Nav-Comm installation manual ? Any input appreciated. Thanks in advance, Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Batteries
Date: Jun 02, 2008
From: fiveonepw(at)aol.com
I believe Bob would say to do the tests and gather the data. >>> Seems every time the battery issue pops up I listen to the agonizing over the issue and offer this solution that has worked quite nicely on my RV for almost five years, currently about $80 bux/pop: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=P231-ND Sad part is that the first one I bought was maybe $45... >From The PossumWorks in TN, Mark -----Original Message----- From: simon(at)synchronousdesign.com Sent: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 8:26 am Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Batteries And report findings back to the group. This will take several years if the batteries are worth their weight in lead. It's worth it, though, because we need new known good vendors of these new technology AGM batteries. Interstate used to be my vendor of choice for car batteries long ago when they had superior batteries. Then they started carrying Optima batteries, which were six gell cells wrapped in cylindrical fashion. They were military technology fresh out to the civilian world. I've had them in two of my three cars for about five years now with no problems until last month. One of them gave out, so I replaced it with an Odyssey flat plate AGM cell. Although many have great success with the PC-680 and PC-925L for years, I'm using a different Odyssey battery (automotive) for this application, but it uses the same technology - flat plate instead of circular plate like the Optima uses. I am hoping it delivers the advertised 8-10 years instead of the 5 years Optima delivered. Simon in Florida > I believe Bob would say to do the tests and gather the data. > > Sam > > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 12:42 AM, Dennis Jones > wrote: > >> O.K. how about this. Interstate has a wide selection. For example >> FAYTX20 18AH 270CCA 11 lbs. $104.95 or the other end FAYTX24HL >> 21AH 350CCA 14 lbs. $132.95. Unless Interstate batteries are junk >> these batt. numbers smoke an Odyssey. That's a 20% increase in AH >> and over 50% increase in CCA for the same weight and approximately >> the same price. Or have a little more power and save over 25% in >> weight plus your pocket book. There about the same size overall >> compared with each other and the other types including the >> Odyssey. And they are AGM type. Drive across town buy the thing >> and if you have problems you go back and talk to them in person. >> No internet return headaches. >> >> Jonsey ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 02, 2008
From: "RALPH HOOVER" <hooverra(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Garmin SL 30 install manual ?
Gilles, Look here! Mike Stewart has the SL30 manual under downloads. http://www.mstewart.net/michael/rv/index.htm Ralph & Laura Hoover RV7A N527LR It's going to the airport Saturday for final assembly :) -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles Thesee Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 5:21 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin SL 30 install manual ? <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr> Hi all, Anyone happen to have a Garmin SL 30 Nav-Comm installation manual ? Any input appreciated. Thanks in advance, Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Batteries
Date: Jun 02, 2008
This is the battery that I am using.. I plan to replace one of them each year, so max age will be two years. http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=522-1014-ND Sadly, the first battery I bought was about $25, the second about $35, and now they are $55! Bill B _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of fiveonepw(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:59 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Batteries I believe Bob would say to do the tests and gather the data. >>> Seems every time the battery issue pops up I listen to the agonizing over the issue and offer this solution that has worked quite nicely on my RV for almost five years, currently about $80 bux/pop: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=P231-ND Sad part is that the first one I bought was maybe $45... >From The PossumWorks in TN, Mark -----Original Message----- From: simon(at)synchronousdesign.com Sent: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 8:26 am Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Batteries And report findings back to the group. This will take several years if the batteries are worth their weight in lead. It's worth it, though, because we need new known good vendors of these new technology AGM batteries. Interstate used to be my vendor of choice for car batteries long ago when they had superior batteries. Then they started carrying Optima batteries, which were six gell cells wrapped in cylindrical fashion. They were military technology fresh out to the civilian world. I've had them in two of my three cars for about five years now with no problems until last month. One of them gave out, so I replaced it with an Odyssey flat plate AGM cell. Although many have great success with the PC-680 and PC-925L for years, I'm using a different Odyssey battery (automotive) for this application, but it uses the same technology - flat plate instead of circular plate like the Optima uses. I am hoping it delivers the advertised 8-10 years instead of the 5 years Optima delivered. Simon in Florida > I believe Bob would say to do the tests and gather the data. > > Sam > > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 12:42 AM, Dennis Jones > wrote: > >> O.K. how about this. Interstate has a wide selection. For example >> FAYTX20 18AH 270CCA 11 lbs. $104.95 or the other end FAYTX24HL >> 21AH 350CCA 14 lbs. $132.95. Unless Interstate batteries are junk >> these batt. numbers smoke an Odyssey. That's a 20% increase in AH >> and over 50% increase in CCA for the same weight and approximately >> the same price. Or have a little more power and save over 25% in >> weight plus your pocket book. There about the same size overall >> compared with each other and the other types including the >> Odyssey. And they are AGM type. Drive across town buy the thing >> and if you have problems you go back and talk to them in person. >> No internet return headaches. >> >> Jonsey _____ Stay informed, get connected and more <http://mobile.aol.com/productOverview.jsp?productOver%20%3c/div%3e%3cpre%3e http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ivor Phillips" <ivor.phillips(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Garmin SL 30 install manual ?
Date: Jun 03, 2008
Hi Gilles I have two hard copies, If nobody can offer a PDF already done, I can copy to PDF and send it to you Regards Ivor -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles Thesee Sent: 02 June 2008 22:21 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin SL 30 install manual ? <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr> Hi all, Anyone happen to have a Garmin SL 30 Nav-Comm installation manual ? Any input appreciated. Thanks in advance, Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 2008
From: Brett Ferrell <bferrell(at)123mail.net>
Subject: Re: Garmin SL 30 install manual ?
On my website: http://www.velocityxl.com/Downloads/SL30Nav_Comm_InstallationManual.pdf http://www.velocityxl.com/SL30Nav_Comm_UserGuide.pdf http://www.velocityxl.com/Downloads/SL30Nav_Comm_QuickReferenceGuide.pdf Brett Ivor Phillips wrote: > > Hi Gilles > I have two hard copies, If nobody can offer a PDF already done, I can > copy to PDF and send it to you > Regards > Ivor > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Gilles Thesee > Sent: 02 June 2008 22:21 > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin SL 30 install manual ? > > <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr> > > Hi all, > > Anyone happen to have a Garmin SL 30 Nav-Comm installation manual ? > > Any input appreciated. > > Thanks in advance, > Best regards, > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 19 Msgs - 05/06/08
Date: Jun 03, 2008
From: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net> Subject: Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:16:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_013F_01C8C549.CF4306E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Unsent: 1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_013F_01C8C549.CF4306E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm away from my desk for a few days. Please email me later. Deke ------=_NextPart_000_013F_01C8C549.CF4306E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm away from my desk for a few days.  Please email me later.
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From: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 10/19/07
Date: Jun 03, 2008
From: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net> Subject: Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:16:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_013F_01C8C549.CF4306E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Unsent: 1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_013F_01C8C549.CF4306E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm away from my desk for a few days. Please email me later. Deke ------=_NextPart_000_013F_01C8C549.CF4306E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm away from my desk for a few days.  Please email me later.
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------=_NextPart_000_013F_01C8C549.CF4306E0-- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 06/02/08
Date: Jun 03, 2008
From: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net> Subject: Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:16:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_013F_01C8C549.CF4306E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Unsent: 1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_013F_01C8C549.CF4306E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm away from my desk for a few days. Please email me later. Deke ------=_NextPart_000_013F_01C8C549.CF4306E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm away from my desk for a few days.  Please email me later.
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------=_NextPart_000_013F_01C8C549.CF4306E0-- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 03/20/08
Date: Jun 03, 2008
From: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net> Subject: Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:16:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_013F_01C8C549.CF4306E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Unsent: 1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_013F_01C8C549.CF4306E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm away from my desk for a few days. Please email me later. Deke ------=_NextPart_000_013F_01C8C549.CF4306E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm away from my desk for a few days.  Please email me later.
Deke
 

      
      
      
------=_NextPart_000_013F_01C8C549.CF4306E0-- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bret Smith" <smithhb(at)tds.net>
Subject: Re: Batteries
Date: Jun 03, 2008
Mark, Do you know if this battery will fit inside the PC-680 battery box? Bret Smith RV-9A "Canopy" Blue Ridge, GA www.FlightInnovations.com ----- Original Message ----- From: fiveonepw(at)aol.com To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:59 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Batteries I believe Bob would say to do the tests and gather the data.>>> Seems every time the battery issue pops up I listen to the agonizing over the issue and offer this solution that has worked quite nicely on my RV for almost five years, currently about $80 bux/pop: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=P231-N D Sad part is that the first one I bought was maybe $45... >From The PossumWorks in TN, Mark -----Original Message----- From: simon(at)synchronousdesign.com To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 8:26 am Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Batteries And report findings back to the group. This will take several years if the batteries are worth their weight in lead. It's worth it, though, because we need new known good vendors of these new technology AGM batteries. Interstate used to be my vendor of choice for car batteries long ago when they had superior batteries. Then they started carrying Optima batteries, which were six gell cells wrapped in cylindrical fashion. They were military technology fresh out to the civilian world. I've had them in two of my three cars for about five years now with no problems until last month. One of them gave out, so I replaced it with an Odyssey flat plate AGM cell. Although many have great success with the PC-680 and PC-925L for years, I'm using a different Odyssey battery (automotive) for this application, but it uses the same technology - flat plate instead of circular plate like the Optima uses. I am hoping it delivers the advertised 8-10 years instead of the 5 years Optima delivered. Simon in Florida > I believe Bob would say to do the tests and gather the data. > > Sam > > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 12:42 AM, Dennis Jones > wrote: > >> O.K. how about this. Interstate has a wide selection. For example >> FAYTX20 18AH 270CCA 11 lbs. $104.95 or the other end FAYTX24HL >> 21AH 350CCA 14 lbs. $132.95. Unless Interstate batteries are junk >> these batt. numbers smoke an Odyssey. That's a 20% increase in AH >> and over 50% increase in CCA for the same weight and approximately >> the same price. Or have a little more power and save over 25% in >> weight plus your pocket book. There about the same size overall >> compared with each other and the other types including the >> Odyssey. And they are AGM type. Drive across town buy the thing >> and if you have problems you go back and talk to them in person. >> No internet return headaches. >> >> Jonsey ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Stay informed, get connected and more http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://forums.matronics.com =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Larry L. Tompkins, P.E." <tompkinsl(at)integra.net>
Subject: Re: SD-8 vs. SD-20 choice
Date: Jun 03, 2008
Ernest: It is my understanding that the SD-20 has both a wound stator and a wound coil, i.e., no permanent magnets. Therefore it is "off" until power to the field windings is switched on. Let me try to do a better job asking my question. The SD-8 is continuously producing output. Does that mean it also has the continuous potential to produce electrical noise? On the other hand, the SD-20 is spinning continuously, but does not produce output unless the field circuit is switched "on." What is the potential for the SD-20 to generate electrical noise when it is spinning and not producing output? My question about "wear" was exceptionally poorly phrased. I am actually interested in knowing whether there is more mechanical wear (bearings) because the SD-8 is "on" all the time vs. the SD-20, which would only be "on" during a primary alternator failure (I suspect this may have more to do with the relative mechanical robustness of the devices than anything else). Further, I was trying to understand if mechanical wear on the SD-8 would increase its "noise signature" over time and if mechanical wear on the SD-20 would eventually result in an electrical "noise signature" even with the alternator off. I hope I did a better job of asking my questions this time. Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
Subject: Batteries
Date: Jun 03, 2008
Not all of them will fit without some modification to the battery box. The Odyssey PC-680 corners (and the box) have a big radius on the corners and the other brands have much sharper corners. Consequently they don't fit even though width and depth are the same. I cut the back out of the box Van's provides and riveted the brackets on leaving a little extra depth. If I ever put an Odyssey in it I can use some rubber baffle material as a shim. Regards, Greg Young _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bret Smith Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:05 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Batteries Mark, Do you know if this battery will fit inside the PC-680 battery box? Bret Smith RV-9A "Canopy" Blue Ridge, GA www.FlightInnovations.com ----- Original Message ----- From: fiveonepw(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:59 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Batteries I believe Bob would say to do the tests and gather the data. >>> Seems every time the battery issue pops up I listen to the agonizing over the issue and offer this solution that has worked quite nicely on my RV for almost five years, currently about $80 bux/pop: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=P231-ND Sad part is that the first one I bought was maybe $45... >From The PossumWorks in TN, Mark -----Original Message----- From: simon(at)synchronousdesign.com Sent: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 8:26 am Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Batteries ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 2008
From: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Re: Garmin SL 30 install manual ?
Thank you to everyone who responded on-list as well as off-list. I now have a .pdf copy of the manual. It's nice to get so much help and so quickly ! Thanks a lot, Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Batteries
Date: Jun 03, 2008
From: fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Do you know if this battery will fit inside the PC-680 battery box? >>> Here's the datasheet from Digikey for the Panasonic: http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/Panasonic_VRLA_LC-X1220P_LC_X1220AP.pdfhttp://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc680.htm ...and for the PC680 from West Coast Batteries: http://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc680.htm I found this battery is available from Summit Racing for $120, but didn't do an extensive price search. Main difference I see is the 680 has 6mm threaded holes in the top for connection with bolts, the Panasonic has lead lugs for connection with 5mm bolts (supplied with battery).? I doubt there is a hillabeans difference in their internal construction or performance.? Other than the extra 3Ah the Panasonic claims.? I've used the Panasonic exclusively in my plane (O-320, 150 hp) and also the recent IO-360 I helped with, and it has performed very well in both cases.? The Jabirus I am now working on use Odyssey batteries, but I'm trying to educate them... Looks like they are about the same size.? I also measured the box included with Van's FWF kit for the recent project (which I did not use) and it appears either will fit in the box. Mark From: Bret Smith <smithhb(at)tds.net> Sent: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 7:04 am Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Batteries Mark, ? Do you know if this battery will fit inside the PC-680 battery box? ? Bret Smith RV-9A "Canopy" Blue Ridge, GA www.FlightInnovations.com ----- Original Message ----- From: fiveonepw(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:59 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Batteries I believe Bob would say to do the tests and gather the data. >>> Seems every time the battery issue pops up I listen to the agonizing over the issue and offer this solution that has worked quite nicely on my RV for almost five years, currently about $80 bux/pop: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=P231-ND Sad part is that the first one I bought was maybe $45... >From The PossumWorks in TN, Mark -----Original Message----- From: simon(at)synchronousdesign.com Sent: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 8:26 am Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Batteries And report findings back to the group. This will take several years if the batteries are worth their weight in lead. It's worth it, though, because we need new known good vendors of these new technology AGM batteries. Interstate used to be my vendor of choice for car batteries long ago when they had superior batteries. Then they started carrying Optima batteries, which were six gell cells wrapped in cylindrical fashion. They were military technology fresh out to the civilian world. I've had them in two of my three cars for about five years now with no problems until last month. One of them gave out, so I replaced it with an Odyssey flat plate AGM cell. Although many have great success with the PC-680 and PC-925L for years, I'm using a different Odyssey battery (automotive) for this application, but it uses the same technology - flat plate instead of circular plate like the Optima uses. I am hoping it delivers the advertised 8-10 years instead of the 5 years Optima delivered. Simon in Florida > I believe Bob would say to do the tests and gather the data. > > Sam > > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 12:42 AM, Dennis Jones > wrote: > >> O.K. how about this. Interstate has a wide selection. For example >> FAYTX20 18AH 270CCA 11 lbs. $104.95 or the other end FAYTX24HL >> 21AH 350CCA 14 lbs. $132.95. Unless Interstate batteries are junk >> these batt. numbers smoke an Odyssey. That's a 20% increase in AH >> and over 50% increase in CCA for the same weight and approximately >> the same price. Or have a little more power and save over 25% in >> weight plus your pocket book. There about the same size overall >> compared with each other and the other types including the >> Odyssey. And they are AGM type. Drive across town buy the thing >> and if you have problems you go back and talk to them in person. >> No internet return headaches. >> >> Jonsey Stay informed, get connected and more http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List --> http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Batteries
Date: Jun 03, 2008
From: fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Dang- let's try that again: http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/Panasonic_VRLA_LC-X1220P_LC_X1220AP.pdf Gawd I hate changing ISPs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 2008
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: SD-8 vs. SD-20 choice
Larry L. Tompkins, P.E. wrote: > Ernest: > > It is my understanding that the SD-20 has both a wound stator and a wound coil, i.e., no permanent magnets. Therefore it is "off" until power to the field windings is switched on. > > Let me try to do a better job asking my question. The SD-8 is continuously producing output. Does that mean it also has the continuous potential to produce electrical noise? The amount of noise radiated would need some good lab equipment to pick up. You won't have a problem with your radios. > On the other hand, the SD-20 is spinning continuously, but does not produce output unless the field circuit is switched "on." What is the potential for the SD-20 to generate electrical noise when it is spinning and not producing output? > > Zero. > My question about "wear" was exceptionally poorly phrased. I am actually interested in knowing whether there is more mechanical wear (bearings) because the SD-8 is "on" all the time vs. the SD-20, which would only be "on" during a primary alternator failure (I suspect this may have more to do with the relative mechanical robustness of the devices than anything else). Further, I was trying to understand if mechanical wear on the SD-8 would increase its "noise signature" over time and if mechanical wear on the SD-20 would eventually result in an electrical "noise signature" even with the alternator off. I hope I did a better job of asking my questions this time. > > Larry > The nice thing about these generators vs an alternator is that they don't have the side loads imposed by a belt and pully system. The gear will eventually wear out, but because the weights and forces on the spinning parts are all balanced, there is very little wear on the bearings. And the gear will most likely outlast your engine. -- http://www.ronpaultimeline.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Jones" <djones(at)northboone.net>
Subject: Ring terminal
Date: Jun 04, 2008
I need to find a ring terminal for the starter such that the #2 wire comes off at a 90 degree angle. Any ideas/help. Jonsey ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Ring terminal
Date: Jun 04, 2008
Cut a slice off a copper pipe about a =BD inch long. Squeeze it down onto the wire into the shape of a flag, drill a hole for the bolt, and solder it on the wire. Bill B _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dennis Jones Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 1:51 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ring terminal I need to find a ring terminal for the starter such that the #2 wire comes off at a 90 degree angle. Any ideas/help. Jonsey ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Alternator switch/breaker wiring
>I am in the process of wiring my Plane Power alternator and I am wondering >of it matters in what sequence the 5 amp breaker and the switch are >placed. I currently have the field wire from the alternator connected to >the breaker, then the breaker to the switch (DPDT), then to the bus, as I >believe is shown on drawing Z-11 Breakers and fuses should be as close to the energy source as practical . . . I.e., at the bus. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Bob's LLC
> >Hi Bob, > >Have you looked at an HSA (Health Savings Account) for health >insurance? I won't go into too many details and everyone's situation can >vary, but if you can afford the deductible early on if you get sick >(worst case situation), it will eventually start to add up to a >significant amount of money in your account instead of the insurance >company's. Can work really well for a healthy younger person. Also, I'm >NOT in the insurance or healthcare business, only a small business trying >to stay afloat without lining the insurance company's pockets. > >Ed Absolutely. They also get your insurance company out of the loop as to who pays what for whom and why. What used to be a tool for reduction of risk has morphed into socialized sharing of expenses that can no longer be classed as "insurance". An HSA recovers at least a portion of that flexibility and personal initiative that we've sold to the so-called insurance companies over the years. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
>Jeff, > >I assume that you have two power sources so that if one fails, then the >other will carry the load. If that is true, then each circuit should be >designed to carry the full load. Correct. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "glen matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 06/03/08
Date: Jun 04, 2008
glen matejcek aerobubba(at)earthlink.net > > From: "Larry L. Tompkins, P.E." <tompkinsl(at)integra.net> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 vs. SD-20 choice > > Ernest: > > It is my understanding that the SD-20 has both a wound stator and a > wound coil, i.e., no permanent magnets. Therefore it is "off" until > power to the field windings is switched on. > > Let me try to do a better job asking my question. The SD-8 is > continuously producing output. That is a misleading statement. Under normal ops, the SD-8 is creating a voltage, but no current. Much like a battery sitting on a shelf. >Does that mean it also has the > continuous potential to produce electrical noise? Not really. As I recall it, the regulator for this device is a 'switcher'. It uses pulse width modulation to take whatever the output voltage of the dynamo is and match it to the needs of the system. When the SD-8 is used as a back up, it's regulator should be set to a voltage greater than battery and lower than the main alternator's. In normal operations, this arrangement causes the SD-8's regulator to sense a high system voltage state, and responds by maintaining a constant 'off' state. No current, no noise. Once the system voltage sags to the SD-8 regulator's set point, it starts switching the dynamo's output on and off as required to take up the slack. This is a pretty noisy situation, and is why there is such a physically large capacitor used as a filter on it's output. I occasionally fly a plane that is equipped with a Com radio and an SD-8 as the only engine driven source of electrons. I've never experienced any electrical noise in the audio. >On the other hand, > the SD-20 is spinning continuously, but does not produce output unless > the field circuit is switched "on." What is the potential for the SD-20 > to generate electrical noise when it is spinning and not producing > output? Nothing noticeable. No current, no noise. > My question about "wear" was exceptionally poorly phrased. I am > actually interested in knowing whether there is more mechanical wear > (bearings) because the SD-8 is "on" all the time vs. the SD-20, which > would only be "on" during a primary alternator failure (I suspect this > may have more to do with the relative mechanical robustness of the > devices than anything else). The SD-8 is not only not producing power when the main alternator is functioning properly, but there are no brushes to wear. The only wear items I am aware of are the seal in the oil pump pad, and the bearing in the SD-8. If B&C has been true to their nature, the bearing in the SD-8 will be the last one under your cowling to fail. >Further, I was trying to understand if > mechanical wear on the SD-8 would increase its "noise signature" over > time No. >and if mechanical wear on the SD-20 would eventually result in an > electrical "noise signature" even with the alternator off. No >I hope I did > a better job of asking my questions this time. > > Larry The one thing that I could foresee being a problem would be if one ran a system wire, especially a sensor wire from a thermocouple, right next to the SD-8 installation. The spinning magnetic field of the SD-8 could impose a signal over the weak signal from an EGT (or other) sensor. The twisted pair of wires on these sensors should help mitigate that situation. Also, I don't recall ever hearing anyone mention such an issue in this forum, so I suspect it's a pretty low order threat. FWIW, and I hope this helps- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Testing SD-8 Circuit
> >I searched, but could not find the answer. I'm all wired and ready to >close the open access that I have to all my SD-8 circuit wiring. I'm >following Z-13 and would really like to test this standby alternator >circuit before it becomes difficult to repair, replace or modify. Is >there anything wrong with me hooking up a battery on a small charger into >the leads that are normally fed from the SD-8 regulator to test the relay >and associated wiring? I believe the battery on a charger would act like >the SD-8/regulator combination. Or is there another way to accomplish >this task that I'm overlooking? > >Thanks > >Rocky Hmmmm . . . this system is exceedingly simple. If you are confident of your wiring, then it will work as advertised. "Chargers" used to be coarse substitutes for power supplies but recent shifts to include battery charging and maintaining electronics make their performance as power supplies uncertain. A electronics-bench power supply would be a sure bet . . . but I'm not convinced that it's a good use of your $time$. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 2008
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
From: "Jeffrey Skiba" <jskiba(at)icosa.net>
Yes I do have two power sources (one with 90 amp capacity and one with 20 amp)and would plan on each being able to carry the load. However if Both are powered, from all the posts I read, the power source with the Higher voltage will take ALL the load correct ? I ask since the two sources are not of the same capacity, aka during "normal ops" I would want to use the large capacity source to power the device connected to the diode. then if it fails the small device will pick up the load (with the help of extra battery capacity) until I can bring the load down on the smaller buss. Hope that makes sense :-) or am I missing something ? Jeff Nuckolls, III" > > > >>Jeff, >> >>I assume that you have two power sources so that if one fails, then the >>other will carry the load. If that is true, then each circuit should be >>designed to carry the full load. > > Correct. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: As it's quiet right now, can I check a few things......
> >I'm working on a version of Z-20 for my Jab/X-Air and as I'm an electrical >newbie I wanted to run a couple of things by the group to check that I'm >staying on track:- > >On the Power Master Switch am I right in thinking that the 2-10 has it's >first ON for just the battery and the second ON for Battery + Alternator? correct >Also, in the Z Figures, where there is no recommended wire size for the >ground wire what should I do? For example from the ALT OV Disconnect >Relay to FWL G2 and also from the Crowbar Over Voltage module to PNL >G3? I'm guessing that for all of the rest I'd just use the same AWG size >as I use from the main bus? All wires in series for any circuit would be the same size. In the two cases you cited, 22AWG is sufficient. All other wires should be sized according to the current they're intended to carry. Protective devices (fuses/breakers) are similarly selected. See wire sizing chart at: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Wire_Chart.pdf Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: SD-8 vs. SD-20 choice
>Although I already should have known, I was recently reminded that, as a >permanent magnet device, the SD-8 standby alternator is producing output >whenever it is rotating. > >Looking on the B&C website, I determined that the PMR1C regulator is a >heat sink for the 100-120 watts produced when the alternator is not >delivering current to the endurance bus. Unlike the earliest SHUNT regulators for PM alternators (makes alternator work full bore all the time) the regulators commonly offered today are SERIES devices . . . > >So Question #1 is whether the SD-8 is "wearing" to a greater extent than >the SD-20 since it is producing rated load all the time one is operating >the engine at cruise rpm? . . . that load the alternator in response to demands from system loads and/or state of battery discharge. > >If Question #1 is yes, then Question #2 is: Does the fact that the SD-8 is >producing output and wearing all the time make it more likely to be an >electrical noise source or more likely to become an electrical noise >source (at an earlier time in its life cycle) than the SD-20? > >Although I most likely don't need 20A backup capability for my endurance >bus, I would like to minimize any electrical noise potential. > >Thanks in advance to those who are more knowledgeable than this >electrically challenged mech. engr. Alternators are the strongest sources of noise in the system . . . but quite manageable. Your main alternator or even an SD-20 is MUCH noisier than an SD-8. Products designed to run in DC systems powered by alternators live quite happily in this environment. Your concerns for alternator noise are not well supported by the physics. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Batteries
>O.K. how about this. Interstate has a wide selection. For example FAYTX20 >18AH 270CCA 11 lbs. $104.95 or the other end FAYTX24HL 21AH 350CCA 14 lbs. >$132.95. Unless Interstate batteries are junk these batt. numbers smoke an >Odyssey. That's a 20% increase in AH and over 50% increase in CCA for the >same weight and approximately the same price. Or have a little more power >and save over 25% in weight plus your pocket book. There about the same >size overall compared with each other and the other types including the >Odyssey. And they are AGM type. Drive across town buy the thing and if you >have problems you go back and talk to them in person. No internet return >headaches. > >Jonsey When selecting a battery, consider life-cycle costs of ownership. Assuming one subscribes to the idea that a battery needs to be a KNOWN quantity of stored energy for the purpose of supporting a KNOWN e-bus load for a KNOWN period of time, how do you plan to verify the battery's suitability for continued airworthiness? Cost of ownership includes $time$ expended in original purchase, tools to test, $time$ expended in supporting those tests. If you purchase a premium battery then there's a certain amount of pressure to expended still more $time$ testing so as to squeeze the last bit of value before removing the battery from service. Alternatively, consider using the lowest cost battery you can find and simply replace it periodically. Batteries like this: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=P174-ND have performed well in OBAM aircraft. If you replace the battery when it's CAPACITY falls below your KNOWN e-bus operating limits, then it's still quite capable of cranking an engine. Therefore, issues like cold cranking amps are very low priority for selecting a battery. If you're a fair-weather, VFR pilot and you carry dark-panel backup equipment . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Vacination_for_Dark_Panel_Syndrom.pdf . . . then you can run a battery until it simply doesn't crank the engine any more. In this case, you MIGHT be able to get more $value$ out of a premium battery. There are many operating variables that drive battery service life. It's exceedingly difficult to quantify return on investment for one style of battery over another. If it were my airplane, I'd put in the least expensive battery I can find. Run a real-time, e-bus endurance test at one year and every six months thereafter. Replace the battery when e-bus support drops below 2 hours (or what ever number you've selected for your modus-operandi). Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: SD-8 vs. SD-20 choice
>I'm in the same boat Larry being an ME.. > >In practice I have never heard any radio noise form the SD8. I would also >put the output nearer 12A rather than the 8A it is rated for. The SD-8 is capable of 12A output if you spin it fast enough. Years ago, the SD-8 had a belt driven cousin that was mounted under the prop shaft on the O-200. This version spun fast enough to call it a 12A machine. See: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternators/SD8-Performance.pdf The "rating" is also dependent upon whether you're asking the alternator to CHARGE a battery, or simply SUPPORT the system at a voltage sufficient to PREVENT DISCHARGE of the battery. As the two curves cited above illustrate, when driven at vacuum pump pad speeds, you can rate the SD-8 at more than 8A if your willing to let the bus voltage sag down to battery sustain levels. SD-8 noise is quite nominal. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/SD-8_Noise_Data.pdf At 14.6v, 10.6 amps load and 4000 rpm filtered by a ratty 10K uF capacitor, I measured about 250 mV pk-pk noise. This is about 1/6 the noise you might expect from a 60A main alternator. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>
Date: Jun 04, 2008
Subject: SD-8 vs. SD-20 choice
Oh that makes sense because when I did my IFR test running more equipment than I though was possible (i.e right around 12A's worth) the batt volts would sag to 12v but it would only give me an alarm (11.8V I think) if I hit the transmit on the radio. I took this to mean I could safely run this level of equipment to my destination. Frank The "rating" is also dependent upon whether you're asking the alternator to CHARGE a battery, or simply SUPPORT the system at a voltage sufficient to PREVENT DISCHARGE of the battery. As the two curves cited above illustrate, when driven at vacuum pump pad speeds, you can rate the SD-8 at more than 8A if your willing to let the bus voltage sag down to battery sustain levels. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 2008
From: "D Wysong" <hdwysong(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Ring terminal
> I need to find a ring terminal for the starter such that the #2 wire > comes off at a 90 degree angle. Any ideas/help. > > Jonsey Something like this, Jonsey? http://www.evparts.com/prod-TM2386.htm D ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: SD-8 vs. SD-20 choice
> > >Oh that makes sense because when I did my IFR test running more equipment >than I though was possible (i.e right around 12A's worth) the batt volts >would sag to 12v but it would only give me an alarm (11.8V I think) if I >hit the transmit on the radio. > >I took this to mean I could safely run this level of equipment to my >destination. The battery begins to deliver energy at about 12.6 volts or so. So if you loaded the system to 12.0 volts, then no doubt the battery was carrying part of the total load. This is why I set LV Warning devices at 13.0 volts. At this level, the alternator may be "overloaded" . . . i.e. unable to charge a battery but it's still holding the battery in reserve for approach to landing. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: SD-8 noise issues
> > > >glen matejcek >aerobubba(at)earthlink.net > > > > > From: "Larry L. Tompkins, P.E." <tompkinsl(at)integra.net> > > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 vs. SD-20 choice > > > > Ernest: > > > > It is my understanding that the SD-20 has both a wound stator and a > > wound coil, i.e., no permanent magnets. Therefore it is "off" until > > power to the field windings is switched on. > > > > Let me try to do a better job asking my question. The SD-8 is > > continuously producing output. > >That is a misleading statement. Under normal ops, the SD-8 is creating a >voltage, but no current. Much like a battery sitting on a shelf. >The one thing that I could foresee being a problem would be if one ran a >system wire, especially a sensor wire from a thermocouple, right next to >the SD-8 installation. The spinning magnetic field of the SD-8 could >impose a signal over the weak signal from an EGT (or other) sensor. The >twisted pair of wires on these sensors should help mitigate that situation. >Also, I don't recall ever hearing anyone mention such an issue in this >forum, so I suspect it's a pretty low order threat. > >FWIW, and I hope this helps- Nice response Glen. There IS a significant magnetic field outside the SD-8 housing. Of course, spinning that housing offers a potential for generating magnetically coupled noises into any adjacent conductors. However, given that all sensors to the engine SHOULD be carried on twisted inbound/outbound conductors, the effects of this noise should be zero. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Jones" <djones(at)northboone.net>
Subject: Re: Ring terminal
Date: Jun 04, 2008
Close. This is what I am looking for. Plus they have a few of the other hard to find items. Thanks for the link. http://www.evparts.com/prod-TM2344.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "D Wysong" <hdwysong(at)gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 1:52 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ring terminal > >> I need to find a ring terminal for the starter such that the #2 wire >> comes off at a 90 degree angle. Any ideas/help. >> >> Jonsey > > Something like this, Jonsey? > > http://www.evparts.com/prod-TM2386.htm > > D > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
>Yes I do have two power sources (one with 90 amp capacity and one with 20 >amp) and would plan on each being able to carry the load. > >However if Both are powered, from all the posts I read, >the power source with the Higher voltage will take ALL the load correct ? Correct. >I ask since the two sources are not of the same capacity, aka during >"normal ops" >I would want to use the large capacity source to power the device >connected to the diode. >then if it fails the small device will pick up the load (with the help of >extra battery capacity) until I can bring the load down on the smaller buss. >Hope that makes sense :-) >or am I missing something ? I guess I don't understand your architecture. Did you start with one of the Z-figures? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Testing SD-8 Circuit
From: "rockyjs" <rockyjs(at)mchsi.com>
Date: Jun 04, 2008
Thanks Bob, I think I'll just close it up. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186321#186321 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Batteries
Date: Jun 04, 2008
From: fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Update- I tried to stuff a Panasonic LC-X1220P (same dimensions for the 17Ah version) into the Van's PC-680 box (supplied with FWF kit) and it is a no-go. Appears this battery is just slightly too big for the box- a one-sixteenth shave in length would be enough to make it fit. Not the reason I opted to make a "box" of my own design, but if using Van's kit, the PC-680 looks like a better fit. Oh well... Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Saylor" <Dave(at)AirCraftersLLC.com>
Subject: SlilckStart Troubleshooting
Date: Jun 04, 2008
If your SlickStart doesn't seem to be starting so slick, read on. Our RV-10 developed a starting problem in that in suddenly becare VERY difficult to start. For 130 hours it had been starting quite nicely, but the last time I tired, I just had to give up. N921AC has two slick mags, one with retard points on the left, and a SlickStart solid state starting module, essentially a newer version of the Shower of Sparks system. I went through all the normal troubleshooting and figured the problem must be the SlickStart module. I wasn't getting any spark at the plug with the SlickStart powered up and the retard points in firing position. I called Unison just to make sure I was checking the right things, and they confirmed it had to be the SlickStart. So I changed it. No help. I checked as many things as I could think of: timing, p-leads, harness, fuse, grounds.. I knew the points were opening because my timing box was indicating OK. I knew the mag was basically sound because when we had managed to get it started (I won't go into how...), it ran fine with a normal mag drop. I finally gave up and sent the mag and both SlickStarts (old one and new one) to LyCon, where I got my engine. They put it on their magneto bench, and came up with the following explanation. This is somewhat untested, but it makes sense and all the evidence >>points<< to it. Sorry, I couldn't resist. Ken at LyCon explained to me that the capacitor had failed, and in so doing had caused the frame of the points (both sets, I guess), to get warm enough to accelerate the wear of the cam follower. So, both points were technically opening, but just barely enough to trip the timing light. Maybe .001 or .002 inches instead of .012 or more. That does make sense, because one of the first things I did was to check the mag timing, and I found it had advanced about 10 degrees, to about 15 BTC on the main points and about 10 past TC on the retard points. I just reset the timing and went on troubleshooting. As the cam follower wears, it retards the spark. Part of the SlickStart troubleshooting says to look for ~300 volts from the output. If the points were barely opening, I think that 300 volts would be able to jump the gap and essentially ground through the retard points instead of exciting the primary coil. I installed my old mag after LyCon replaced boths sets of points and the capacitor, and it worked fine. So the upshot is, if the SlickStart troubleshooting points to a bad module, it's probably worth physically checking the point gap with a feeler gauge, instead of just with the timing box before you replace the module. In retrospect I wish Unison would have suggested that. Dave Saylor AirCrafters LLC 140 Aviation Way Watsonville, CA 831-722-9141 831-750-0284 CL www.AirCraftersLLC.com 135 hours ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
Subject: SllckStart Troubleshooting
Date: Jun 05, 2008
6/5/2008 Hello Dave, Thanks for your very interesting input. I operate a SlickStart unit on a TCM IO-240 B9B engine and am very interested in anything related to the system. A semantic quibble. You wrote: "That does make sense, because one of the first things I did was to check the mag timing, and I found it had advanced about 10 degrees, to about 15 BTC on the main points and about 10 past TC on the retard points." Don't your numbers mean that the timing had retarded (further) to those figures rather than advanced? In the normal condition for a running engine the spark happens some 20 plus degrees before piston top dead center so any spark happening later in time than normal is considered retarded. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." ------------------------------------------------- From: "Dave Saylor" <Dave(at)AirCraftersLLC.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: SlilckStart Troubleshooting If your SlickStart doesn't seem to be starting so slick, read on. Our RV-10 developed a starting problem in that in suddenly becare VERY difficult to start. For 130 hours it had been starting quite nicely, but the last time I tired, I just had to give up. N921AC has two slick mags, one with retard points on the left, and a SlickStart solid state starting module, essentially a newer version of the Shower of Sparks system. I went through all the normal troubleshooting and figured the problem must be the SlickStart module. I wasn't getting any spark at the plug with the SlickStart powered up and the retard points in firing position. I called Unison just to make sure I was checking the right things, and they confirmed it had to be the SlickStart. So I changed it. No help. I checked as many things as I could think of: timing, p-leads, harness, fuse, grounds.. I knew the points were opening because my timing box was indicating OK. I knew the mag was basically sound because when we had managed to get it started (I won't go into how...), it ran fine with a normal mag drop. I finally gave up and sent the mag and both SlickStarts (old one and new one) to LyCon, where I got my engine. They put it on their magneto bench, and came up with the following explanation. This is somewhat untested, but it makes sense and all the evidence >>points<< to it. Sorry, I couldn't resist. Ken at LyCon explained to me that the capacitor had failed, and in so doing had caused the frame of the points (both sets, I guess), to get warm enough to accelerate the wear of the cam follower. So, both points were technically opening, but just barely enough to trip the timing light. Maybe .001 or .002 inches instead of .012 or more. That does make sense, because one of the first things I did was to check the mag timing, and I found it had advanced about 10 degrees, to about 15 BTC on the main points and about 10 past TC on the retard points. I just reset the timing and went on troubleshooting. As the cam follower wears, it retards the spark. Part of the SlickStart troubleshooting says to look for ~300 volts from the output. If the points were barely opening, I think that 300 volts would be able to jump the gap and essentially ground through the retard points instead of exciting the primary coil. I installed my old mag after LyCon replaced boths sets of points and the capacitor, and it worked fine. So the upshot is, if the SlickStart troubleshooting points to a bad module, it's probably worth physically checking the point gap with a feeler gauge, instead of just with the timing box before you replace the module. In retrospect I wish Unison would have suggested that. Dave Saylor AirCrafters LLC 140 Aviation Way Watsonville, CA 831-722-9141 831-750-0284 CL www.AirCraftersLLC.com 135 hours ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jun 05, 2008
> Note 24. When you have critical loads that you would like > to accommodate with dual power sources, the 4-diode > bridge rectifier offers an easy to acquire, easy to mount, > easy to wire solution. The figure for this note illustrates > which terminals are used. Figure Z-19 shows one example > of how the device is used. > If your critical system draws more than 4 but less than 8 > amps, the diode bridge should be mounted on a metallic > surface for heat sinking. If the loads are heavier, say 8 amps > up to the 25 or 30 amp rating of the device, perhaps a finned > heat sink is called for. Consult the membership of the > AeroElectric List for guidance in these special cases. But let's be careful out there. Remember that a 25A Full Wave Bride is made up of four 12.5 Amp diodes. One must never make the mistake of thinking you can use it for 25A currents in a power-source-selecting circuit like Z-19. Bigger diodes are required. "In times of rapid change, experience could be your worst enemy." ---Jean Paul Getty -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186362#186362 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 05, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Pseudo-science run amok . . .
A friend of mine turned me on to what must be a relatively new phenomenon running through the ranks of the poorly educated, easily scammed members of society. Do a Google search on "HHO Gas" and/or "Browns Gas" and watch what pops up. Do the same search on Ebay and see how many different products are being offered (and unfortunately . . . purchased) to individuals believing that this simple 7th grade science experiment offers relief from high gas prices. There's an important law of thermodynamics (2nd I think) that states that energy is never created, only transformed. Further, any transformation is never 100% efficient. So the process of breaking water into it's constituent gaseous components takes more energy to accomplish than the energy you will get back by burning those gasses later (in your car or elsewhere). Unfortunately for victims of poor schooling (or inattention in good schools), a great deal of money will change hands to the benefit of those who sell "hope". Show this to your families and especially any kids you know. This has to be a prime example of dishonorable behaviors that prey on the ignorant in a world-wide scale! Honorable skepticism is the citizen's most effective defense from hucksters and cheats. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 05, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
> > > > Note 24. When you have critical loads that you would like > > to accommodate with dual power sources, the 4-diode > > bridge rectifier offers an easy to acquire, easy to mount, > > easy to wire solution. The figure for this note illustrates > > which terminals are used. Figure Z-19 shows one example > > of how the device is used. > > If your critical system draws more than 4 but less than 8 > > amps, the diode bridge should be mounted on a metallic > > surface for heat sinking. If the loads are heavier, say 8 amps > > up to the 25 or 30 amp rating of the device, perhaps a finned > > heat sink is called for. Consult the membership of the > > AeroElectric List for guidance in these special cases. > > >But let's be careful out there. Remember that a 25A Full Wave Bride is >made up of four 12.5 Amp diodes. One must never make the mistake of >thinking you can use it for 25A currents in a power-source-selecting >circuit like Z-19. Bigger diodes are required. True! When I picked the bridge rectifier assembly for it's mechanical considerations (easy mounting, fast-on tab connections) the smallest device that came in that package was a 25A rated, full wave rectifier. 35A devices also come in that package. See: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/s401-25.jpg It didn't occur to me then that a builder would find a practical application that would 'overload' the device electrically. As you've accurately pointed out, there are applications other than e-bus normal feed-path circuits that could begin to load one of these critters to it's rated limits. Referring to an exemplar data sheet . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Semiconductors/gbpc12.pdf . . . it's not clear but should be understood by the astute reader that only 1/2 of the components of a bridge rectifier are 'working' at any given time on alternate half-cycles of the incoming AC waveform. The data sheets don't offer a continuous duty rating for single devices. In practice, I suspect the individual devices can be used at more than 1/2 the ratings for the total package. It's a matter of getting the heat out. From the neophyte builder's perspective, limiting continuous current on a single device to 1/2 the rated current for the whole device is a no-brainer conservative approach that will not disappoint. But keep in mind that ANY semi-conductor loaded to it's maximum continuous ratings dissipates heat . . . energy that must be removed through the mounting surfaces for the device. Further, no matter how large the ratings for any device - if the installation does not also take care of the heat generated. 10A of current flowing in a 100A rate part can smoke the device! There's nothing electrically 'magic' about the diode bridge rectifier illustrated above. It was originally suggested for its convenience of installation into systems that originally placed very low demands on its electrical abilities . . . no large concerns for rejecting heat. However, as one considers pushing the practical limits for this or any other device, close attention to ratings, limits and installation is called for. Thanks for bringing this up Eric. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 05, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Pseudo-science run amok . . .
> >A number of people have asked me about this hydrogen-from-water thing >("hydro-gen" means "makes water", by the way). I explain to them that >water is the burnt ashes of chemical processes and is at the lowest >possible chemical energy stable state. Just because a fire and its ashes >are related doesn't mean the ashes have any chemical energy left in them. >Only by adding lots of energy to the water can you get anything useful >back out. Nothing is going to change this--the vast oceans stand as mute >witness to this fact. > >Coincidentally, yesterday a friend of mine told me that diesel truckers >used water injection AND acetylene. The problem with all these ideas is >that engines using various fuel saving, power boosting schemes have far >shorter lifetimes. This doesn't matter to the military but would matter to >the public. Good point. Another oft ignored feature of "alternative" technologies is big-picture economics. Some colleagues of mine at Lear did a study on water-alcohol injection for carbureted engines with the idea of being able to run mo-gas in 100 octane engines by using injection at low- altitude full throttle conditions and limiting manifold pressures for remainder of flight (most of which is at altitude). The idea being that a 100 octane engine running full throttle at altitude can't really use all that the fuel has to offer. After running all the numbers on the full envelope of flight scenarios (including extended forced operations at low altitude) it was determined that the amount of mixture to be carried combined with weight and volume of installed hardware painted an un-attractive big-picture image. This study didn't even touch on the effects of large differences in lead between 100LL and mo-gas. It's easy to get sucked into the vortex of excitement that surrounds some ideas. I'll suggest that 90+ percent of ideas enshrined in the patent office have no useful place in an attractive big-picture. Only after the idea finds useful application in a repeated recipe for success is it time to reach for the credit card. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 05, 2008
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Pseudo-science run amok . . .
Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: > > Well funny that 'cus a friend of a friend..has another friend who swears that by using battery current make hydrogen from a water sample and then sucking the resulant gas into the carb intake he's like getting 60mpg from his Subaru station wagon..he was waxing enthusiastically about this and of course now everyone at our table wanted to try this out. > > When I suggested that "it just doesn't add up"...using the exact argument below I was of course told I was just a party pooper and it MUST work right? > > Hmm...but the numbers don't add up..If they did, then why not remove the gasoline altogether and run the entire engine on water and just use the "spare" little bit of current it would take to turn water into wine...I mean into hydrogen. > > I told them I was highly scptical..:) > > Frank > > > The last time fuel prices were bumping their way up, there were two big rages. On was to put a magnet on the fuel line just before the carbeurator (supposed to align the molecules and make them burn straight). Some schools systems bought into the idea around here. Never heard much more about it. The other was a plug of platinum in the fuel line. Tiny amounts of platinum cause the fuel to burn closer to completion was the claim. Heh, platinum is used in the catalytic converter, why not just move that into the combustion chamber. That idea quietly fell by the wayside also. Adding hydrogen or propane actually does have some merit in some older installations, but not for any of the magical handwaving reasons usually given. The fact is that these compounds ignite easily, and for years the typical car was so poorly tuned that ANYTHING would improve the combustion process. Trying to tell the people that a $100 tune-up would do more good is just a waste of breath. Highly compromised intake systems would also cause mixture problems. The advent of computer controls, fuel injection, and ignition systems that are self adjusting has obliterated the usefulness of such measures. I point this out, because most airplane engines don't take advantage of modern technology to improve the combustion process. Consider the trick of slight closing the throttle, so that the plate will increase turbulence and improve the mixture distribution on some Lycomings. A propane injection system could be a solution that would equalize the combustion events across pistons, while still providing full power, or allow the engine to run leaner. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 05, 2008
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pseudo-science run amok . . .
Chuck, you need to have your spark plug electrodes ground to a "custom airfoil shape." Then you'll become a true petroleum exporter ;-) Bill B On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Chuck Jensen wrote: > cjensen(at)dts9000.com> > > Heck, I've got so many of those energy saving and creating devices on my > plane that I have to stop every 300 miles or so and drain the excess fuel > from my tanks. > > Chuck Jensen > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave VanLanen" <davevanlanen(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Wire Labeling Question
Date: Jun 05, 2008
I am trying to set up a simple labeling scheme for my wiring, as suggested in the AeroElectric manual,. I will have a basic day VFR airplane, so there is no need for me to make it complex. What do you do for labeling when you have individual wires spliced to wires that run in a pre-sheathed bundle? For example, I am using a RAC servo for my elevator trim. It has 5 individual wires coming out of the servo, which are then connected to wires internal to a sheathed bundle provided by the factory, which routes forward to the cabin. The ends of the wires in the bundle are not accessible for labeling because, after applying heat shrink to each wire connection, a "blanket" heat shrink sheath was applied over all connections. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Vs" <dsvs(at)ca.rr.com>
Subject: Wire Labeling Question
Date: Jun 05, 2008
Wire Labeling QuestionAll of these wires are color dodes. you do not need to lable them, just enter the color code in your "wirebook". I choose to use #22 tefzel instead of the bundle that RAC supplies. I was therefore able to lable everything. Either way will work just fine. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave VanLanen Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 4:04 PM To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wire Labeling Question I am trying to set up a simple labeling scheme for my wiring, as suggested in the AeroElectric manual,. I will have a basic day VFR airplane, so there is no need for me to make it complex. What do you do for labeling when you have individual wires spliced to wires that run in a pre-sheathed bundle? For example, I am using a RAC servo for my elevator trim. It has 5 individual wires coming out of the servo, which are then connected to wires internal to a sheathed bundle provided by the factory, which routes forward to the cabin. The ends of the wires in the bundle are not accessible for labeling because, after applying heat shrink to each wire connection, a "blanket" heat shrink sheath was applied over all connections. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave VanLanen" <davevanlanen(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: CD ROM Question
Date: Jun 05, 2008
I downloaded the CD ROM from the AeroElectric website, but I am unable to open the various drawings. I was told that the CD ROM should also contain .PDF copies of the drawings, but I cannot find them. Am I missing something? Does the purchased version contain more than the downloadable version? I am trying to find examples of wirebooks and wire labeling examples. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 06, 2008
From: "D Wysong" <hdwysong(at)gmail.com>
Subject: questions about "filter" capacitors
Hello folks, I'm wondering what drives the sizing/requirements for the caps hanging off of our alternator feeds. I am comparing a few different architectures and would like to understand the subtleties associated with each. The first architecture is a Rotax 914 w/ standard 14V PM generator. Suggestions from other Rotax 914'ers led me to conservatively derate my 14V budget to ~12A to keep the Rotax (Ducati) regulator/rectifier healthy. Per Rotax recommendations (and supported by the Z drawings), I have a 25V 22,000uFcap installed. This satisfies the "rule of thumb" from the list archives of "1,000 uF per 1A" for PM alternators, and plots of the 14V bus voltage during engine runs indicate that all is well with this cap installed. The downsides are that the cap is huge (physical size of a mini Coke can) and I have blindly applied a rule of thumb to size the cap. It works... but I would like to understand why. Why 1,000 uF instead of 100 uF or 5,000 uF? The second architecture is my stock C150M with a 60A Ford alternator. After noting the size of the cap installed on the Rotax I began wondering how I could've overlooked such a monster on my 150? Turns out I didn't. The Cessna schematics/SB's identified a couple of noise filters (square box on the firewall, small can with a pigtail on the alternator) as well as a small axial capacitor behind the instrument panel. Do these numerous iterative "filters" on the 150 provide the cumulative equivalent of a single "1,000 uF per 1A" capacitor on my OBAM bird? Is the "1,000 uF per 1A" rule of thumb for the PM generators even applicable to the 150? Am I missing a corollary that defines an upper limit where adding more Farads offers little/no return on investment? If I had a 100A alternator would I really NEED to shop for a 100,000 uF cap or would a smaller cap suffice? Thanks for your time/assistance/patience. I look forward to the education and clearing the haze. D ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 06, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: CD ROM Question
>I downloaded the CD ROM from the AeroElectric website, but I am unable to >open the various drawings. I was told that the CD ROM should also contain >.PDF copies of the drawings, but I cannot find them. Am I missing >something? Does the purchased version contain more than the downloadable >version? I am trying to find examples of wirebooks and wire labeling examples. The .dwg files are opened with AutoCAD or one of its compatible brothers like TurboCAD V7 or higher. The downloadable CD is the same as the purchased one which is the same as the website itself. CAD drawings are found at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/ACAD_Architecture_Dwgs/ the .pdf versions are at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/ and both directories cited above are mirrored on the CD Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 06, 2008
From: "Lee Logan" <leeloganster(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 06/05/08
Do I understand the mechanics of the SD-8 correctly? It sits on the vacuum pad and the domed (orange) part spins out in the open at 4,000 rpm or so? I've never seen any recommendations to keep anything away from it---does it have sufficient electromagnetic potential that it would draw unsecured/inadequately secured ferrous objects toward it? Obviously, you'd have everything under the cowl carefully secured; I'm thinking it might be a different story if something got loose or a foreign object of some kind made its way to the rear accessory case. Am I missing something here? Lee... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Edward Christian <edchristian(at)knology.net>
Subject: EIS and Vans Fuel Guage
Date: Jun 06, 2008
Has anyone done this? I want to power 2 Vans Steam Fuel Gauges and the EIS from float senders on RV-6 I am trying to figure out how to wire (from float senders) 2 Vans Fuel guages and also connect to a Grand Rapids EIS. If I was coming directly to the EIS, I am supposed to use a 4.8V Excitation (from EIS) through a 470 ohm 1/4-1/2 Watt Resistor to the Sender. Anybody done this setup before? Do I need the Excitation or the resistors? Do the Vans Fuel Guages already have resistor's built in? Help, Ed ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 06, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: SD-8 integration onto aircraft
>Do I understand the mechanics of the SD-8 correctly? It sits on the >vacuum pad and the domed (orange) part spins out in the open at 4,000 rpm >or so? Correct. >I've never seen any recommendations to keep anything away from it-- Seems self-evident that one should provide suitable clearance between the alternator and other parts. You don't want things "rubbing" on stuff that doesn't spin either. > . . .does it have sufficient electromagnetic potential that it would > draw unsecured/inadequately secured ferrous objects toward it? No > Obviously, you'd have everything under the cowl carefully secured; I'm > thinking it might be a different story if something got loose or a > foreign object of some kind made its way to the rear accessory case. Get out your crowbar, hammer and hatchet and deduce exactly what item under the cowl that you could force into contact with the alternator. > >Am I missing something here? Don't think so. Like spinning propellers, fan blades, chains and sprockets, flight control cables/pulleys, alternator belts/pulleys etc . . . numerous moving components in airplanes are easily integrated into the flight system with rudimentary considerations for clearances and security of adjacent hardware. There are no "gotchas" lurking under any rocks at this stage of the product's service history. There are thousands of these things in service with a track record that goes back over 20 years. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>
Date: Jun 06, 2008
Subject: Re: SD-8 integration onto aircraft
I agree...with a little bit of thought its just a non issue..About the only thing I have against the SD8 is the price..:) Other than that this thing is bullet proof Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 7:18 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: SD-8 integration onto aircraft --> >Do I understand the mechanics of the SD-8 correctly? It sits on the >vacuum pad and the domed (orange) part spins out in the open at 4,000 >rpm or so? Correct. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: questions about "filter" capacitors
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 06, 2008
Look at it this way: Forget what you hear here in terms of rules of thumb. 22 mFd is what the factory decrees, so that is what a responsible builder should used unless there is strong evidence to the contrary. The value of the cap is determined by estimating the resistance of the driven system and then the desired tau (time constant) which will give the desired degree of smoothing to the DC output. If you don't put a cap in, your systems will get rectified AC as the supply waveform, not the desired DC. (Quite possibly all modern avionics, lights, and LEDS would run quite happily on rectified AC, maybe not electronic ignition modules - caveat lector!!) There is no electrical max limit on the cap value, the limit is of size and weight -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186507#186507 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 06, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: RE: SD-8 integration onto aircraft
> >I agree...with a little bit of thought its just a non issue.. >About the only thing I have against the SD8 is the price..:) One is always free to build their own . . . Almost daily I find myself stacking DIY project $time$ against a decision to "get it bought and move on". More often than not the economics of $time$ demonstrate that I cannot build it for less than I can buy it. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 06, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: re: DIY autopilot data package
A few days ago I offered to scan and publish the data package on the DIY autopilot projects by Doug Garner et. als. I thumbed through the pile of paper in the folder a few minutes ago and decided that I don't have the time to do it soon . . . and I judge that few individuals in the OBAM aircraft community would get much value from it. In any case, one could contact EAA for reprints on Garner articles that would cover his efforts quite well. I put the file folder back into the cabinet. Instead, I'll try to get the traces on effectiveness of various coil-suppression technologies done this afternoon. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Henry Trzeciakowski" <hammer408(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Heavy E-Bus & Fuseable Link
Date: Jun 06, 2008
Bob: Im installing a Heavy E-Bus architecture, per Z-32. Currently my E-Bus load is around 13amps...architecture is: 18g F-link at E-Bus---14 awg---S704-1 relay---14 awg---10amp fuse at Battery Bus. According to B & C, fuseable links are for low power, 10 amps or less.....so should I eliminate the fuseable link and directly wire my 14 g wire to #10 stud on E-Bus OR wire to a 10 or 15 amp fuse on the E-bus - and increase the Battery Bus Fuse from 10 amp to 15 amp? What I'm carring on my E-Bus is basically my Avionic's Panel: 340 audio, 430 nav/com gps,330 Transponder and 106 Indicator - Amp draw is approx:7 amps, but in TRANSMIT Mode, I'm pulling an extra 6 AMPs for a total of about 13 amps. Any suggestions appreciated, or should I wire per Z-32, since the extra 6 Amp in transmit mode is interminent and will only spike to 13 or so amps periodically. Thanks Henry ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: questions about "filter" capacitors
From: "hdwysong" <hdwysong(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 06, 2008
rampil wrote: > 22 mFd is what the factory decrees, so that is what a responsible builder should used unless there is strong evidence to the contrary. Understood. The 22000 uFd cap is installed and will certainly remain on the 914 per Rotax schematics. Rather than wanting to fix what isn't broken I'm simply trying to understand where these "magic" numbers come from. rampil wrote: > The value of the cap is determined by estimating the resistance of the driven system and then the desired tau (time constant) which will give the desired degree of smoothing to the DC output. If you don't put a cap in, your systems will get rectified AC as the supply waveform, not the desired DC. Makes sense, Ira. Thanks. Somewhere there exists an "allowable ripple" spec and, given the expected/typical loads on a system, the cap is sized accordingly to satisfy the spec. Would it be practical for us to estimate the system resistance alongside the power budget to derive an educated guess for how big the B-lead cap should be? Seems like a science project with little return on investment (time/effort), but perhaps it will provide a reasonable ballpark #? Alternatively, is there any harm in simply hooking things up WITHOUT a B-lead cap and measuring how "noisy" the bus is before I stick a filter cap in the system? This is more of a build-test-fix approach but at least I would have data to substantiate the size (and weight and cost) of the cap chosen. D Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186564#186564 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: EIS and Vans Fuel Guage
Date: Jun 06, 2008
Edward I did it, but since it was many moons ago, I can't remember how. As soon as I get to my scratched notes, I'll try to recover that information for you. Carlos > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward Christian > Sent: sexta-feira, 6 de Junho de 2008 15:09 > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: EIS and Vans Fuel Guage > > > > Has anyone done this? > > I want to power 2 Vans Steam Fuel Gauges and the EIS from float > senders on RV-6 > > I am trying to figure out how to wire (from float senders) 2 Vans Fuel > guages and also connect to a Grand Rapids EIS. If I was coming > directly to the EIS, I am supposed to use a 4.8V Excitation (from EIS) > through a 470 ohm 1/4-1/2 Watt Resistor to the Sender. > > Anybody done this setup before? Do I need the Excitation or the > resistors? Do the Vans Fuel Guages already have resistor's built in? > > Help, > > Ed > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
Date: Jun 06, 2008
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
Wow, thanks - of course that is nice to know information before you buy the B & C 25A Diode and heat-sink which conservatively carries 12.5 A continuous. I know, read b4 you buy. Ok, then I need to go bigger. Can I melt the diode off the B & C heatsink to re-use? Looks like BR's are relatively cheap. All about Bridge Rectifiers http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/electronic/rectbr.html#c2 Where to buy... $5.00 in the UK 35A job http://www.reuk.co.uk/Buy-35A-Bridge-Rectifiers.htm Here's an 80A job for $6.50 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360059397300 With this 80A (conservatively 40A capacity unit) does my little 20A Ebus load need a heat-sink? Do I need to fear voltage collapse if this thing is only getting 14V ? Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thu 6/5/2008 2:10 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Bridge Diodes use > > > > Note 24. When you have critical loads that you would like > > to accommodate with dual power sources, the 4-diode > > bridge rectifier offers an easy to acquire, easy to mount, > > easy to wire solution. The figure for this note illustrates > > which terminals are used. Figure Z-19 shows one example > > of how the device is used. > > If your critical system draws more than 4 but less than 8 > > amps, the diode bridge should be mounted on a metallic > > surface for heat sinking. If the loads are heavier, say 8 amps > > up to the 25 or 30 amp rating of the device, perhaps a finned > > heat sink is called for. Consult the membership of the > > AeroElectric List for guidance in these special cases. > > >But let's be careful out there. Remember that a 25A Full Wave Bride is >made up of four 12.5 Amp diodes. One must never make the mistake of >thinking you can use it for 25A currents in a power-source-selecting >circuit like Z-19. Bigger diodes are required. True! When I picked the bridge rectifier assembly for it's mechanical considerations (easy mounting, fast-on tab connections) the smallest device that came in that package was a 25A rated, full wave rectifier. 35A devices also come in that package. See: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/s401-25.jpg It didn't occur to me then that a builder would find a practical application that would 'overload' the device electrically. As you've accurately pointed out, there are applications other than e-bus normal feed-path circuits that could begin to load one of these critters to it's rated limits. Referring to an exemplar data sheet . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Semiconductors/gbpc12.pdf . . . it's not clear but should be understood by the astute reader that only 1/2 of the components of a bridge rectifier are 'working' at any given time on alternate half-cycles of the incoming AC waveform. The data sheets don't offer a continuous duty rating for single devices. In practice, I suspect the individual devices can be used at more than 1/2 the ratings for the total package. It's a matter of getting the heat out. From the neophyte builder's perspective, limiting continuous current on a single device to 1/2 the rated current for the whole device is a no-brainer conservative approach that will not disappoint. But keep in mind that ANY semi-conductor loaded to it's maximum continuous ratings dissipates heat . . . energy that must be removed through the mounting surfaces for the device. Further, no matter how large the ratings for any device - if the installation does not also take care of the heat generated. 10A of current flowing in a 100A rate part can smoke the device! There's nothing electrically 'magic' about the diode bridge rectifier illustrated above. It was originally suggested for its convenience of installation into systems that originally placed very low demands on its electrical abilities . . . no large concerns for rejecting heat. However, as one considers pushing the practical limits for this or any other device, close attention to ratings, limits and installation is called for. Thanks for bringing this up Eric. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: luckymacy(at)comcast.net (lucky)
Subject: EIS and Vans Fuel Guage
Date: Jun 07, 2008
This is the setup I have too and at the time I had to call Sandy to get the final word. I recall just wiring up the fuel system per Van's drawings and just splicing in the line going to the EIS and don't bother with the resister. I think this is in the archives as well. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > > server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward Christian > > Sent: sexta-feira, 6 de Junho de 2008 15:09 > > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > > Subject: AeroElectric-List: EIS and Vans Fuel Guage > > > > > > > > Has anyone done this? > > > > I want to power 2 Vans Steam Fuel Gauges and the EIS from float > > senders on RV-6 > > > > I am trying to figure out how to wire (from float senders) 2 Vans Fuel > > guages and also connect to a Grand Rapids EIS. If I was coming > > directly to the EIS, I am supposed to use a 4.8V Excitation (from EIS) > > through a 470 ohm 1/4-1/2 Watt Resistor to the Sender. > > > > Anybody done this setup before? Do I need the Excitation or the > > resistors? Do the Vans Fuel Guages already have resistor's built in? > > > > Help, > > > > Ed > > > > > > >
This is the setup I have too and at the time I had to call Sandy to get the final word.  I recall just wiring up the fuel system per Van's drawings and just splicing in the line going to the EIS and don't bother with the resister.
 
I think this is in the archives as well.
<DIV><BR>> > -----Original Message----- <BR>> > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <BR>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- <BR>> > server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward Christian <BR>> > Sent: sexta-feira, 6 de Junho de 2008 15:09 <BR>> > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com <BR>> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: EIS and Vans Fuel Guage <BR>> > <BR>> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Edward Christian <BR>> > <EDCHRISTIAN(at)KNOLOGY.NET><BR>> > <BR>> > Has anyone done this? <BR>> > <BR>> > I want to power 2 Vans Steam Fuel Gauges and the EIS from float <BR>> > senders on RV-6 <BR>> > <BR>> > I am trying to figure out how to wire (from float senders) 2 Vans Fuel <BR>> > guages and also connect to a Grand Rapids EIS. If I was coming <BR>> > directly to the EIS, I am supposed to use a 4.8V Excitation (from EIS) <BR>> > through a 470 ohm 1/4- 1/2 Wa =====

      
      
      
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From: luckymacy(at)comcast.net (lucky)
Subject: EIS and Vans Fuel Guage
Date: Jun 07, 2008
I just double checked. The exciting voltage from Van's fuel gauges will allow you NOT to use the GRT EIS supplied resistors. And you can "T" off the return voltage form the sender to the EIS without any additional work. lucky -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> > > Edward > > I did it, but since it was many moons ago, I can't remember how. > As soon as I get to my scratched notes, I'll try to recover that information > for you. > > Carlos > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > > server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward Christian > > Sent: sexta-feira, 6 de Junho de 2008 15:09 > > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > > Subject: AeroElectric-List: EIS and Vans Fuel Guage > > > > > > > > Has anyone done this? > > > > I want to power 2 Vans Steam Fuel Gauges and the EIS from float > > senders on RV-6 > > > > I am trying to figure out how to wire (from float senders) 2 Vans Fuel > > guages and also connect to a Grand Rapids EIS. If I was coming > > directly to the EIS, I am supposed to use a 4.8V Excitation (from EIS) > > through a 470 ohm 1/4-1/2 Watt Resistor to the Sender. > > > > Anybody done this setup before? Do I need the Excitation or the > > resistors? Do the Vans Fuel Guages already have resistor's built in? > > > > Help, > > > > Ed > > > > > > >
I just double checked.
 
 The exciting voltage from Van's fuel gauges will allow you NOT to use the GRT EIS supplied resistors.  And you can "T" off the return voltage form the sender to the EIS without any additional work.
 
lucky
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> <BR><BR>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carlos Trigo" <TRIGO(at)MAIL.TELEPAC.PT><BR>> <BR>> Edward <BR>> <BR>> I did it, but since it was many moons ago, I can't remember how. <BR>> As soon as I get to my scratched notes, I'll try to recover that information <BR>> for you. <BR>> <BR>> Carlos <BR>> <BR>> > -----Original Message----- <BR>> > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <BR>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- <BR>> > server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward Christian <BR>> > Sent: sexta-feira, 6 de Junho de 2008 15:09 <BR>> > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com <BR>> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: EIS and Vans Fuel Guage <BR>> > <BR>> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Edwar es Nav

      
      
      
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Date: Jun 07, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Heavy E-Bus & Fuseable Link
> > >Bob: > >Im installing a Heavy E-Bus architecture, per Z-32. >Currently my E-Bus load is around 13amps...architecture is: >18g F-link at E-Bus---14 awg---S704-1 relay---14 awg---10amp fuse at Battery >Bus. > >According to B & C, fuseable links are for low power, 10 amps or less.....so >should I eliminate the fuseable link and directly wire my 14 g wire to #10 >stud on E-Bus >OR wire to a 10 or 15 amp fuse on the E-bus - and increase the Battery Bus >Fuse from 10 amp to 15 amp? > >What I'm carring on my E-Bus is basically my Avionic's Panel: 340 audio, 430 >nav/com gps,330 Transponder and 106 Indicator - Amp draw is approx:7 amps, >but in TRANSMIT Mode, I'm pulling an extra 6 AMPs for a total of about 13 >amps. > >Any suggestions appreciated, or should I wire per Z-32, since the extra 6 >Amp in transmit mode is interminent and will only spike to 13 or so amps >periodically. FUSIBLE LINKS are recommended ONLY for those places where shown in the Z-figures and there are no fusible links in Z-32. Use a 15A fuse for your Z-32 e-bus alternate feed path. I don't know where B&C got that 10A number. The fuse blocks are factory rated for up to 30A in any given fuse slot . . . My personal design criteria de-rates them to 15A which is large enough for 99% of situations. For larger loads I would consider a FUSIBLE LINK or other form of robust current limiter. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 07, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: questions about "filter" capacitors
> > >rampil wrote: > > 22 mFd is what the factory decrees, so that is what a responsible > builder should used unless there is strong evidence to the contrary. > > >Understood. The 22000 uFd cap is installed and will certainly remain on >the 914 per Rotax schematics. Rather than wanting to fix what isn't >broken I'm simply trying to understand where these "magic" numbers come from. In this particular case, I'll bet that somebody when to the parts store, bought something that "looks like it will work" and installed it. When nobody complained about noise after that, what ever value was in place (22KuF) was called "golden". It may have been that the 1KuF/Amp rule-of-thumb was applied. We'll never know. >rampil wrote: > > The value of the cap is determined by estimating the resistance of the > driven system and then the desired tau (time constant) which will give > the desired degree of smoothing to the DC output. If you don't put a cap > in, your systems will get rectified AC as the supply waveform, not the > desired DC. > > >Makes sense, Ira. Thanks. Somewhere there exists an "allowable ripple" >spec and, given the expected/typical loads on a system, the cap is sized >accordingly to satisfy the spec. If we were talking about General Motors or Honda, yeah, there might be a house spec for maximum allowable noise to meet corporate design goals. There might even be an IEEE or SAE spec but there's no practical way of knowing if Rotax has a spec or consulted anyone else's documents. Rotax's regulators are supplied by Ducati and since these folks are in the vehicular electrics business, their recommendations may well have been the outcome of well considered conditions. But Rotax probably wouldn't be aware of it. In the US aerospace industry, there are generally accepted recommendations embodied in RTCA DO-160 and Mil-Std-704. Go to my website and do a site search on "DO-160" and then another search on "mid-std-704". These two searches will produce a number of hits on what these documents are and how they help us. >Would it be practical for us to estimate the system resistance alongside >the power budget to derive an educated guess for how big the B-lead cap >should be? Seems like a science project with little return on investment >(time/effort), but perhaps it will provide a reasonable ballpark #? It's a bit beyond 'estimating' . . . the range of bus impedances can be large depending on size and condition of battery, numbers of accessories and any associated internal capacitors, etc. >Alternatively, is there any harm in simply hooking things up WITHOUT a >B-lead cap and measuring how "noisy" the bus is before I stick a filter >cap in the system? This is more of a build-test-fix approach but at least >I would have data to substantiate the size (and weight and cost) of the >cap chosen. ABSOLUTELY! But this has already been done. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/SD-8_Noise_Data.pdf Here I loaded the SD-8 to 10.5 amps and applied the 1KuF/A rule-of-thumb. Bus noise from the SD-8 was quite nominal in comparison with the 1.5 v pk-pk noise that we're told is acceptable under Mil-Std-704 design goals. But this was one measurement on equipment that I had access to at the time. The repeatable experiment is what validates all recipes for success and any data you can collect and add to our collective knowledge would no only be appropriate but most welcome. I've not had an opportunity to 'scope a Rotax 912 installation. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 07, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Report on the Harbor Freight 42292 battery charger
A short time ago I picked up a version of this device from Harbor Freight. http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery_Chargers/HF_Chargers/42292.gif Hooked it up to a partially discharged battery yesterday morning with a data acquisition system to plot its performance. At .47A load its output voltage is 11.62 volts. At .67A it drops to 8.33 volts. So with a delta-V of 5.07 and delta-I of 0.2 the output impedance calculates to 5.07/.2 = 25 ohms. If it were not voltage limited, it would be classified as a "trickle charger". By adding simple voltage limiting, it's not capable of damaging a battery but also not capable of topping off a discharged battery. However, it is entirely suitable for keeping a charged battery from discharging itself in long term storage. If I were choosing sides for HF el-cheeso battery chargers also suitable for long term storage, it would have to be the 93258. http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery_Chargers/HF_Chargers/HF93258_1.jpg Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 07, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: CD ROM Question
>I found them. Thank you Bob. > >Two additional questions: >- What are .SHX files, and what software is needed to access them? Those are font shape files. Of no use to you unless you plan to open, edit, print and save the .dwg files in an AutoCAD-like application. >- Are there any .PDF versions of the wirebook examples contained in >http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/ACAD_Wirebook_Samples No, the samples are wirebooks-in-progress that were taken from a client's project years ago. Again, intended to be starting points for someone interested in saving a lot of time in to crafting their own wirebooks in a CAD program. > ? (I attempted to >use the wirebook.exe file, but nothing seems to happen). It may not have been obvious but that is a self-extracting .zip file. After you exercised the file, about a dozen new files were deposited in the same directory. This too is a sampling of .dwg files of use only to an individual with CAD editing capabilities. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 07, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Report on the Harbor Freight 42292 battery charger
(WITH CORRECTIONS) A short time ago I picked up a version of this device from Harbor Freight. http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery_Chargers/HF_Chargers/42292.gif Hooked it up to a partially discharged battery yesterday morning with a data acquisition system to plot its performance. At .47A load its output voltage is 11.62 volts. At .67A it drops to 8.33 volts. So with a delta-V of 5.07 and delta-I of 0.2 the output impedance calculates to 5.07/.2 = 25 ohms. It is votlage limited to about 13.4 volts of output. If it were NOT voltage limited, it would be classified as a "trickle charger". By adding simple voltage limiting, it's not capable of damaging a battery but also not capable of topping off a discharged battery. However, it is entirely suited to keeping a charged battery from discharging itself in long term storage. If I were choosing sides for HF el-cheeso battery chargers also suitable for long term storage, it would have to be the 93258. http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery_Chargers/HF_Chargers/HF93258_1.jpg Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: HF42292 'charger'
Before shipping this one off to the "happy charger grounds in the sky", I opened it up to see how "smart" it really was. Pictures are posted at: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery_Chargers/HF_Chargers/HF42292_0.jpg http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery_Chargers/HF_Chargers/HF42292_1.jpg http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery_Chargers/HF_Chargers/HF42292_2.jpg As external examination of performance suggested, this is a current limited, voltage limited power supply set for 13.4 volts at about 0.6 amps. Fine for long term storage of charged batteries but not up to the task of topping off a dead battery. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Drilling Switch holes in aluminum?
From: "mikef" <mikefapex(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 08, 2008
Hi AeroElectricteers, I am close to actually mounting the switches (99% B&C Carling switches) and finalizing the wiring in my Z-19 system. I was looking for recommendations about how to drill clean, neat holes for switches in my light aluminum boxes. Because of panel space I will need to mount several switches, along with rectangular digital volt and ammeter gauges, on the dash above the fiberglass panel, in a long aluminum box. The box I have is about 12"x3"x3" , that comes in two parts, separates easily with screws removed. I plan to mount the box base on top of the dash, then mount the switches into the other half that mates together. I have access to a small drill press but I've not done this kind of drilling/mounting before, and I'd really like to do a neat job of it. No rough gouged holes. Advice and suggestions regarding tools (dills, bits, etc) and techniques for drilling the round switch holes and rectangular gauge holes is most appreciated. Thanks, Mike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186861#186861 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 2008
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon(at)CRUZCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Drilling Switch holes in aluminum?
Mike, A "unibit" or "step drill" does a nice job in a drill press. I used one for a dozen switch holes that came out very nice. Start by drilling a 1/8-3/32" pilot hole. Be sure to clamp the work so it doesn't wander. Use a relatively slow speed. The unibit makes a very clean cut. Ron On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 2:44 PM, mikef wrote: > > Hi AeroElectricteers, > > I am close to actually mounting the switches (99% B&C Carling switches) and > finalizing the wiring in my Z-19 system. I was looking for recommendations > about how to drill clean, neat holes for switches in my light aluminum > boxes. > > Because of panel space I will need to mount several switches, along with > rectangular digital volt and ammeter gauges, on the dash above the > fiberglass panel, in a long aluminum box. The box I have is about 12"x3"x3" > , that comes in two parts, separates easily with screws removed. I plan to > mount the box base on top of the dash, then mount the switches into the > other half that mates together. > > I have access to a small drill press but I've not done this kind of > drilling/mounting before, and I'd really like to do a neat job of it. No > rough gouged holes. Advice and suggestions regarding tools (dills, bits, > etc) and techniques for drilling the round switch holes and rectangular > gauge holes is most appreciated. > > Thanks, > Mike > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 2008
From: "Robert Feldtman" <bobf(at)feldtman.com>
Subject: Re: Drilling Switch holes in aluminum?
a "punch" is better - they are on sale at Harbour freight bobf On 6/8/08, mikef wrote: > > > Hi AeroElectricteers, > > I am close to actually mounting the switches (99% B&C Carling switches) and > finalizing the wiring in my Z-19 system. I was looking for recommendations > about how to drill clean, neat holes for switches in my light aluminum > boxes. > > Because of panel space I will need to mount several switches, along with > rectangular digital volt and ammeter gauges, on the dash above the > fiberglass panel, in a long aluminum box. The box I have is about 12"x3"x3" > , that comes in two parts, separates easily with screws removed. I plan to > mount the box base on top of the dash, then mount the switches into the > other half that mates together. > > I have access to a small drill press but I've not done this kind of > drilling/mounting before, and I'd really like to do a neat job of it. No > rough gouged holes. Advice and suggestions regarding tools (dills, bits, > etc) and techniques for drilling the round switch holes and rectangular > gauge holes is most appreciated. > > Thanks, > Mike > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186861#186861 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 2008
Subject: EIS and Vans Fuel Gauge
From: James H Nelson <rv9jim(at)juno.com>
Ed, Check with Sandy at GRT and she will tell you how to use the Van's float senders and the EIS system together Jim Nelson N15JN Pink slip in hand ____________________________________________________________ Bad web design can hurt your business! Click to hire a professional http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3nBTZZbfzXIirhyPNndIJSGKjAJ5VH6nh1iD3MKMimzMEiC1/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 2008
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon(at)CRUZCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Drilling Switch holes in aluminum?
A few other details may be worth mentioning. Once I had the pilot holes, I used a piece of 3/4" plywood under the metal. The unibit will cut a big hole in it too, of course. When doing subsequent holes, like up the plywood hole so that the sides of it don't "push" the work to one side, even when clamped. After drilling your pilot holes, bring the unibit in the press right down onto the pilot hole, make sure it's centered, and hold it there with a little pressure while you clamp. That will minimize the possibility of the clamps displacing the work a smidgen. You can see a shot of the bulk of the switch holes I cut this way at http://n254mr.com/node/229. That panel is 8" high. Ron On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 2:57 PM, Ron Shannon wrote: > Mike, > > A "unibit" or "step drill" does a nice job in a drill press. I used one for > a dozen switch holes that came out very nice. Start by drilling a 1/8-3/32" > pilot hole. Be sure to clamp the work so it doesn't wander. Use a relatively > slow speed. The unibit makes a very clean cut. > > Ron ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 2008
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon(at)CRUZCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Drilling Switch holes in aluminum?
On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Robert Feldtman wrote: > a "punch" is better - they are on sale at Harbour freight > > bobf > A good punch is great if you can get one with a deep enough throat to reach the locations on your panel and if it will punch a 15/32" hole spec'd for the S700 series switches. The one I got from HF (#91510) has a 3-1/4" throat which wouldn't reach some of the holes in other parts of my layout and only goes up to a 7/16" hole. Ron ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "earl_schroeder(at)juno.com" <earl_schroeder(at)juno.com>
Date: Jun 08, 2008
Subject: Re: HF42292 'charger'
Hi Bob, Notice on the last picture with the heat sink removed there is an area labeled VR1. The earlier versions had a pot there that one could adjust for the optimum maintainer voltage. [13.8 is what I use] The circuit board is still drilled for a pot on the ones I've purchased recently. I purchased a handful of 100 pots that I install to maintain that flexibility. I have a dozen or so of the earlier versions and I'd guess 80% had to be touched up..some were low some were high. I've had 2-3 fail and at least two of them failed at the transformer to 110VAC plug connection. I was able to repair those. One failed for some other reason and I just kept it for parts. Further investigation wasn't worth the $time$. I fully agree that they are OK for long term storage but not charging. Thanks for taking the time to run the tests! Earl -- "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: Before shipping this one off to the "happy charger grounds in the sky", I opened it up to see how "smart" it really was. Pictures are posted at: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery_Chargers/HF_Chargers/HF42292_0.jpg http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery_Chargers/HF_Chargers/HF42292_1.jpg http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery_Chargers/HF_Chargers/HF42292_2.jpg As external examination of performance suggested, this is a current limited, voltage limited power supply set for 13.4 volts at about 0.6 amps. Fine for long term storage of charged batteries but not up to the task of topping off a dead battery. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Ray Allen Position Indicators
From: "txpilot" <djg7(at)comcast.net>
Date: Jun 08, 2008
I'm trying to wire an RP2 Position indicator to a SPAL Linear Actuator as shown here: http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/indsens.html http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID 08060818580918&item=5-1577-2&catname=electric I'm trying to figure out the wiring between the indicator (orange, green and blue wires) and the linear actuator's built-in potentiometer (purple, white and yellow wires). I'm hoping I could just figure out which wire represents what, connect appropriately, and adjust the indicator's sensitivity and/or add resistors where necessary. How could I be checking this? Is it as simple as measuring resistance between wires in different positions? Any help is appreciated! Thanks, Dan Ginty Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186895#186895 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Drilling Switch holes in aluminum?
> >Hi AeroElectricteers, > >I am close to actually mounting the switches (99% B&C Carling switches) >and finalizing the wiring in my Z-19 system. I was looking for >recommendations about how to drill clean, neat holes for switches in my >light aluminum boxes. > >Because of panel space I will need to mount several switches, along with >rectangular digital volt and ammeter gauges, on the dash above the >fiberglass panel, in a long aluminum box. The box I have is about >12"x3"x3" , that comes in two parts, separates easily with screws removed. >I plan to mount the box base on top of the dash, then mount the switches >into the other half that mates together. > >I have access to a small drill press but I've not done this kind of >drilling/mounting before, and I'd really like to do a neat job of it. No >rough gouged holes. Advice and suggestions regarding tools (dills, bits, >etc) and techniques for drilling the round switch holes and rectangular >gauge holes is most appreciated. Getting nice round holes in sheet metal used to be a bit problematic. The standard twist drill tends to "rip" through the final cuts leaving a somewhat jagged and less than round hole in thin materials. Years ago, the tool of choice was a thing called a spot-facer. Intended for preparing the surface around a bolt hole, it also served as a very well behaved "mill" for shaving the surface around a pilot hole and if use long enough, produced a clean cut hole in thin materials. Here's a link for a 15/32" diameter cutter that's appropriate to mounting toggle switches. http://www.wttool.com/product-exec/product_id/36261/nm/4_Flute_Aircraft_Counterbores_Spot_Facers There's no pilot shown, that's a separate item. In this case, the pilot can be replaced with a 1/8" drill bit (grind a flat on the drill for the setscrew to grip). This makes for a one-piece pilot drill/hole-cutter. Another option are a thing call step-drills. Harbor freight sells these . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Drilling/HF91616_Step_Drills.jpg Really handy in that a few "drills" will cut many sizes of hole. The single-flute cut is not prone to chatter. The down side of these critters is the need to pay attention. As you "thunk"through each step, make sure you don't thunk one or more times too many . . . it's REALLY hard to make those oversized holes get smaller. Sounds like you're working with a electronics project box. These tend to be bent of soft aluminum that is but one step above peanut butter for hardness. You may find that both the tools cited above leave less than a clean, square-edged hole. If you can drill from both sides, start on the back and go half-way through, then come around to the front to finish the hole. Finally, the super clean way to make both round and square holes is with a punch. See: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Drilling/Greenlee_Punches.JPG These are not available in as many sizes as drills but they do a better job on bigger holes than do drills and you can get square or rectangular punches too. However, they're not cheap. For a one-shot project, start your square holes with as large a round hole as practical and finish with a nibbler and/or files. http://www.directron.com/nibbletool.html Some of the hog-out work that precedes fine filing to the finish can be aided by a Dremel tool with a router bit in it. http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Drilling/Dremmel_300.jpg http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Drilling/8th_Inch_Router.jpg This is not a job for one of those battery powered butter slicers you find in the hobby shops. Get a boss-hogg Dremmel 300 or equal. Finally, practice all these techniques on a piece of scrap. You'd be surprised how easy it is to coin new curse words when the next to the last hole you need to cut is suddenly too big. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Drilling Switch holes in aluminum?
From: "mikef" <mikefapex(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 08, 2008
Gentlemen, Thank you one and all for the tool suggestions and techniques. I've ordered a couple of these and will practice on some scrap pieces to see which give the best result. Fly Safe, Mike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186919#186919 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: Ray Allen Position Indicators
Date: Jun 09, 2008
Dan The best way is to contact Ray Allen, and speak to the boss there (I can't remember his name now). He normally helps and he is obviously the best expert on their products Carlos > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of txpilot > Sent: segunda-feira, 9 de Junho de 2008 1:26 > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ray Allen Position Indicators > > > I'm trying to wire an RP2 Position indicator to a SPAL Linear Actuator as shown > here: > > http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/indsens.html > > http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID 08060818580918&item=5-1577- > 2&catname=electric > > I'm trying to figure out the wiring between the indicator (orange, green and blue > wires) and the linear actuator's built-in potentiometer (purple, white and yellow > wires). I'm hoping I could just figure out which wire represents what, connect > appropriately, and adjust the indicator's sensitivity and/or add resistors where > necessary. > > How could I be checking this? Is it as simple as measuring resistance between > wires in different positions? Any help is appreciated! > > Thanks, > > Dan Ginty > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 09, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Ray Allen Position Indicators (OOPS!!!)
> >I'm trying to wire an RP2 Position indicator to a SPAL Linear Actuator as >shown here: > >http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/indsens.html > >http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID 08060818580918&item=5-1577-2&catname=electric > >I'm trying to figure out the wiring between the indicator (orange, green >and blue wires) and the linear actuator's built-in potentiometer (purple, >white and yellow wires). I'm hoping I could just figure out which wire >represents what, connect appropriately, and adjust the indicator's >sensitivity and/or add resistors where necessary. > >How could I be checking this? Is it as simple as measuring resistance >between wires in different positions? Any help is appreciated! > >Thanks, > >Dan Ginty SCRATCH THE PREVIOUS POST. I realized that your were trying to integrate a third party actuator with the Ray-Allen indicator. As I was revising my posting, I accidently produced a set of keystrokes that SENT the unfinished message. Here's the REVISED POSTING that goes to your task . . . Use your multimeter to find which of the two potentiometer connections out of the actuator DO NOT CHANGE RESISTANCE as the actuator moves. Use a battery to drive the motor while watching the multimeter. These are the ENDS of the potentiometer. Once identified, you need to know which wire is the EXTEND end of the pot leaving the other one as RETRACT end of the pot. Hook your multimeter to ONE of the ENDS and to the third wire identified as NOT an END. Drive the motor in RETRACT direction and watch the multimeter for resistance reading. If the resistance reading is going DOWN, then you're attached to the RETRACT end. If the reading is going UP, then you're attached to the EXTEND of the pot. Now, you can take a copy of the drawing I posted at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Trim/PitchTrim.pdf and mark up the schematic's ORN/GRN/BLU wires cited for potentiometer leads in the actuator with the new colors you've discovered during the experiment cited above. Interestingly enough, connecting Ray-Allen colors to extend/arm/retract colors you've deduced above still leaves you with a 50/50 chance of getting it hooked up right the first time. If the indicator reads backwards from the true trim-up/trim-dn motion of the actuator, you'll need to REVERSE THE END CONNECTIONS to the actuator's position reporting potentiometer. Obviously, this situation does not support the rant on RAC contained in the previous posting. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 09, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: New toy from Radio Shack
Needed to visit the local Radio Shack for some aircraft quality parts a few days ago . . . I browsed the tools rack and spotted this thing. http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Soldering/Battery_Portable/RadioShack_64-039.jpg I've been using it on the workbench for several days and found it to be a good value. It's not going to replace my Metcal solder stations by any means but it's performance is entirely adequate for most of what I need to do away from the workbench. I've used a variety of gas powered tools: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Soldering/Gas_Tools/ and a few battery powered devices that I pitched before they found their way into my toolbox. This $20 widget has some impressive performance. Jury still out on cost of ownership and general robustness. If any of you try it out, let us know what you discover and if you decide to pitch it, let us know why. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>
Date: Jun 09, 2008
Subject: New toy from Radio Shack
Ahh yes the HF stand up micro torch. I loved that thing..Unfortunately I was also doing some Oxy-actelyne weldng on the same bench and just the tip of the welding flame was impinging on the plastic and well, the good thing is it only melted the plastic so it din't work any more. It was the best $5 I'd ever spent and I reall want another one..Trouble is I can't get it for $5..:) Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 2:35 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: New toy from Radio Shack --> Needed to visit the local Radio Shack for some aircraft quality parts a few days ago . . . I browsed the tools rack and spotted this thing. http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Soldering/Battery_Portable/RadioShack_64-039.jpg I've been using it on the workbench for several days and found it to be a good value. It's not going to replace my Metcal solder stations by any means but it's performance is entirely adequate for most of what I need to do away from the workbench. I've used a variety of gas powered tools: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Soldering/Gas_Tools/ and a few battery powered devices that I pitched before they found their way into my toolbox. This $20 widget has some impressive performance. Jury still out on cost of ownership and general robustness. If any of you try it out, let us know what you discover and if you decide to pitch it, let us know why. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ray Allen Position Indicators (OOPS!!!)
From: "txpilot" <djg7(at)comcast.net>
Date: Jun 09, 2008
Thank you, Bob! I tried it and it worked like a charm! Best Regards, Dan Ginty Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187078#187078 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Comm Antenna
From: "h&jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net>
Date: Jun 10, 2008
I seem to have these problems pretty well solved. Initially tried shielded cables (shield grounded to A/C ground point near inst panel - unconnected at other end) with lots of toroids to the ELT and Magnetometer. Also made the interconnect between the Primary Flight Display and the MFD a shielded cable. Had little or no effect. Then tried just shielded cable (no toroids) to ELT and wrapped the entire ELT in aluminum foil. Foil is connected to the cable shield and ground is as before. That solved the ELT problem. From other forums I learned that there are D Sub filters which have capacitors built in bypassing each connection to the shell of the connector. Acquired Spectrum Control Series 100 filters, 5600 pf (from Newark Electronics) for the Magnetometer and the PFD (main display). At the Magnetometer I connected the cable shield to the D Sub shell since the shell is floating inside the Mag and I needed a return for the filter. Found the PFD filter didn't have any effect but the Mag helped some. Finally wrapped the Mag in aluminum foil which is connected to the shield and that seemed to solve the problems. I think there is so much RF from the com antenna and no shielding because of the composite, that it overwhelms the ELT and Magnetometer. I also found a local ham with an antenna analyzer (MFJ Model 269) and had a look at my com antenna. Found it had very low SWR but the resistance of the antenna changed if I walked near the antenna and the resistance was not constant or nearly so across the 118 to 136 Mhz range. We both suspected the toroid balun just didn't perform properly. So we decided to make a balun from coax as the ham radio books have shown for years. It is very much like the one on the Aero Electric website except the length of the balun section is an electrical half wavelength, so you must take into account the velocity factor of the cable. Using RG400 (vf=.695), the balun section is 16 1/4" long. Took off the toroids and installed the new balun. Had to trim the antenna to get the SWR low near the center of the band, but now the SWR is less than 2:1 across the entire band, the resistance stays constant and walking near the antenna makes no difference. Hope this helps someone else. Jim Butcher Europa N241BW Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187107#187107 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 2008
From: John Swartout <jgswartout(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: New toy from Radio Shack
Bob, I can't recall if you've ever expressed your views on soldering guns. Any reason not to use one? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ray Allen Position Indicators (OOPS!!!)
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jun 10, 2008
I have studied these for a while and an planning a version of my True Servo Control MAC/RAC (TSCMR) which will incorporate the panel bar graph. But for now, attached is a schematic of the Ray Allen trim box and indicator. Most people might want to keep these with their wiring book. Hope this helps. "A witty saying proves nothing." --Voltaire -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187120#187120 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/mac_servo_and_indicator_wiring_ae_194.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Harry Manvel" <hmanvel(at)manvel.com>
Subject: Re: Ray Allen Position Indicators (OOPS!!!)
Date: Jun 10, 2008
Eric, You seem to know the MAC trim system, maybe you can offer an opinion. My bar graph indicator has always gone bonkers when in flight, but at idle on the ground works normally. No amount of shielding, rewiring etc. has been able to stop this. The folks at the factory really had no clue as to what might cause it. Any thoughts on that? Harry Manvel Defiant N2HM PTK / Pontiac, MI ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 9:11 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ray Allen Position Indicators (OOPS!!!) > > > I have studied these for a while and an planning a version of my True > Servo Control MAC/RAC (TSCMR) which will incorporate the panel bar graph. > But for now, attached is a schematic of the Ray Allen trim box and > indicator. Most people might want to keep these with their wiring book. > > Hope this helps. > > "A witty saying proves nothing." > --Voltaire > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187120#187120 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/mac_servo_and_indicator_wiring_ae_194.pdf > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jun 10, 2008
More on Diodes and FWBs: On B & C Diode Installation sheet they state that "Heatsink must dissipate 0.6 X Amps = Watts. Example For 20 Amp Essential Bus, 0.6 X 20 = 12 Watt Heatsink". But this is wrong and points out a common fallacy regarding diodes: With two resistors in parallel, the resistance of the combination is 1/2. With two MosFets in parallel, the Rds(on) of the combination is 1/2 When using two (or any number of DIODES in parallel, the combination of the Vf's is still only Vf. B & C didn't understand this, and thus the dissipated wattage is twice what is stated. And remember--this bridge rectifier will ONLY handle 12.5 Amps with an infinite heatsink and NO margin when used in a source-selecting configuration. This brings me back to my tired old point that anyone using regular diodes need to re-evaluate their choice. I have sold MANY HUNDREDS of PowerSchottkys to builders who understand this. For Z-19 etc. builders, check out the IXYS DSS 2x61-0045A Dual Power Schottky Rectifiers. 30A on each leg. I sell these with heatsink and Y-jumper, etc., but you can buy your own. Before being concerned by the higher price--consider the savings in the much smaller, lighter heat sink, the higher performance, and the FAR LOWER COST OF OWNERSHIP. Someday my friend Bob will abandon this FWB stuff and go with Schottky Diodes. But I guess you can't get them at Radio Shack. "In times of rapid change, experience could be your worst enemy." ---Jean Paul Getty -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187132#187132 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/power_deuce_schottky_manual_127.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: New toy from Radio Shack
> > >Bob, I can't recall if you've ever expressed your views on soldering >guns. Any reason not to use one? They get hot, melt solder and for a time (about 1962) was my #1 choice of soldering tools when I was working with hard wired vacuum tubes. I have a couple but very seldom use them . . . my benches have Metcal stations and the grab-it-and-run tool boxes have gas powered and/or battery powered portables. It's not that the soldering gun doesn't work as advertised, it's just bulky and horribly inefficient. When you consider the part that gets hot . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Soldering/Irons/gun2.jpg the 125 watts of rated power dissipated over the whole length of the copper "tip". I wouldn't bad-mouth the things. They're entirely suitable to the soldering tasks for some folks, they just don't fit my personal beat-n-bash model any more. I have a grandson who may end up owning one of my soldering guns. It's a good start-up teaching tool. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 2008
From: <chappyd(at)charter.net>
Subject: Basic schematic drawing #
Hi All, I'm new to this list, and I'm trying to learn the basics as I start to plan my electrical system for my RV-7. I bought and read the aeroelectric connection, but I seemed to have misplaced the schematic I was going to follow as an outline. It's just a basic VFR, single alternator and battery system. I went back to the book to look and I went through the schematics in the back of the book, but can't find the one I saw earlier. Can anyone help me out? Thanks, Dave ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike" <mlas(at)cox.net>
Subject: Drilling Switch holes in aluminum?
Date: Jun 10, 2008
Mike, Another option is to use a water jet machine. You can download Turbo CAD and learn to do holes on it in about an hour or two. Save to a DXF file format and then bring the file and metal to your local water jet guy and have it cut. Cost of program for 30 days - free, cost for 10 switch holes in 2024 less then $20, cost of learning basic CAD - priceless (you can use it more then once). Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of mikef Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 2:44 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Drilling Switch holes in aluminum? Hi AeroElectricteers, I am close to actually mounting the switches (99% B&C Carling switches) and finalizing the wiring in my Z-19 system. I was looking for recommendations about how to drill clean, neat holes for switches in my light aluminum boxes. Because of panel space I will need to mount several switches, along with rectangular digital volt and ammeter gauges, on the dash above the fiberglass panel, in a long aluminum box. The box I have is about 12"x3"x3" , that comes in two parts, separates easily with screws removed. I plan to mount the box base on top of the dash, then mount the switches into the other half that mates together. I have access to a small drill press but I've not done this kind of drilling/mounting before, and I'd really like to do a neat job of it. No rough gouged holes. Advice and suggestions regarding tools (dills, bits, etc) and techniques for drilling the round switch holes and rectangular gauge holes is most appreciated. Thanks, Mike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186861#186861 10/2/2007 11:10 AM 10/2/2007 11:10 AM ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 2008
From: "Etienne Phillips" <etienne.phillips(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
> >On B & C Diode Installation sheet they state that "Heatsink must dissipate > 0.6 X Amps = Watts. Example For 20 Amp Essential Bus, 0.6 X 20 = 12 Watt > Heatsink". > In my experience, I have never come across a 12W heatsink. Nor a 1W or 1000W heatsink. A heatsink is chosen appropriate to the temperature rise above ambient the casing of the device can tolerate, or what the spec-sheet says. A single machined-bolt head can dissipate 12W without any additional cooling, however only when it reaches 200 degrees C (thumbsuck). If you can only tolerate a 1degC increase in temperature, the heatsink required to dissipate 12W will be the size of a large desk. So, a specsheet specifies the heatsinking requirements in [degrees above ambient]/[Watt], or specifies the maximum allowable temperature. So consider an ambient of 23degC, a maximum of 100degC, and we have calculated that the device will need to dissipate 10W. That gives us a requirement for a 7.7deg/Watt heatsink, which can be ordered accordingly. I understand the calculations relating to dissipation of heat, and IIRC a Schottky diode, with a forward bias voltage of 0.2V rather than the 0.6~0.7V of a regular diode, dissipates 1/3 the energy for a given current. However, there are always other considerations that have not been touched in this discussion (such as thermal robustness, vibration tolerance, ease of mounting), some of which are the same for both Schottky diodes and for normal ones, and others which will draw very clear lines in the sand precluding one or both from certain applications. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
Date: Jun 10, 2008
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
Eric, Thanks for the information. On Saturday I hooked up the B & C diode with heat sink attached for a 6 hour load test (Z-19). I turned on 15 amps worth of stuff to see if it would start smoking or something of the sort. Initially it got 30-35 C but later cooled down below 30 C for the duration of the run. No adverse behavior to report. If my load gets any higher I'll be over the Schottky fence. The Schottky device certainly looks more robust and if it runs cooler, I may be the next fan. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 10:17 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Bridge Diodes use --> More on Diodes and FWBs: On B & C Diode Installation sheet they state that "Heatsink must dissipate 0.6 X Amps = Watts. Example For 20 Amp Essential Bus, 0.6 X 20 = 12 Watt Heatsink". But this is wrong and points out a common fallacy regarding diodes: With two resistors in parallel, the resistance of the combination is 1/2. With two MosFets in parallel, the Rds(on) of the combination is 1/2 When using two (or any number of DIODES in parallel, the combination of the Vf's is still only Vf. B & C didn't understand this, and thus the dissipated wattage is twice what is stated. And remember--this bridge rectifier will ONLY handle 12.5 Amps with an infinite heatsink and NO margin when used in a source-selecting configuration. This brings me back to my tired old point that anyone using regular diodes need to re-evaluate their choice. I have sold MANY HUNDREDS of PowerSchottkys to builders who understand this. For Z-19 etc. builders, check out the IXYS DSS 2x61-0045A Dual Power Schottky Rectifiers. 30A on each leg. I sell these with heatsink and Y-jumper, etc., but you can buy your own. Before being concerned by the higher price--consider the savings in the much smaller, lighter heat sink, the higher performance, and the FAR LOWER COST OF OWNERSHIP. Someday my friend Bob will abandon this FWB stuff and go with Schottky Diodes. But I guess you can't get them at Radio Shack. "In times of rapid change, experience could be your worst enemy." ---Jean Paul Getty -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187132#187132 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/power_deuce_schottky_manual_127.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gaye and Vaughn" <vaughnray(at)bvunet.net>
Subject: Re: Basic schematic drawing #
Date: Jun 10, 2008
It sounds like you have misplaced either Z-11, labeled "Generic Light Aircraft Electrical System". Does that ring a bell? Vauhgn ---- Original Message ----- From: <chappyd(at)charter.net> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 10:56 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Basic schematic drawing # > > Hi All, > > I'm new to this list, and I'm trying to learn the basics as I start to > plan my electrical system for my RV-7. I bought and read the aeroelectric > connection, but I seemed to have misplaced the schematic I was going to > follow as an outline. It's just a basic VFR, single alternator and battery > system. I went back to the book to look and I went through the schematics > in the back of the book, but can't find the one I saw earlier. Can anyone > help me out? > > Thanks, > > Dave > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 2008
From: <chappyd(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Basic schematic drawing #
Yes, I believe that is the one, Z11. I removed it from the book and must have brought it into the shop, and have misplaced it. Would it be possible to get a copy? Thanks, Dave ---- Gaye and Vaughn wrote: > > > It sounds like you have misplaced either Z-11, labeled "Generic Light > Aircraft Electrical System". > Does that ring a bell? > > Vauhgn > > ---- Original Message ----- > From: <chappyd(at)charter.net> > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 10:56 AM > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Basic schematic drawing # > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > I'm new to this list, and I'm trying to learn the basics as I start to > > plan my electrical system for my RV-7. I bought and read the aeroelectric > > connection, but I seemed to have misplaced the schematic I was going to > > follow as an outline. It's just a basic VFR, single alternator and battery > > system. I went back to the book to look and I went through the schematics > > in the back of the book, but can't find the one I saw earlier. Can anyone > > help me out? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Basic schematic drawing #
> >Yes, I believe that is the one, Z11. I removed it from the book and must >have brought it into the shop, and have misplaced it. Would it be possible >to get a copy? > >Thanks, Dave Z-figures in the book are out of date before the ink dries. The latest Z-figures are always posted in both .dwg CAD format . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/ACAD_Architecture_Dwgs/ and .pdf printer format on the website at . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/ Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim McBurney" <jmcburney(at)pobox.com>
Subject: Problem with TurboCAD
Date: Jun 10, 2008
Bob (and List), Help! I'm trying to load Z figures into TurboCAD, and I keep getting "cannot open file" errors. I've downloaded TurboCAD Learning Edition from two different sources on the internet, and both give the same results. I purchased a paper copy of Aeroelectric Connection ver 10, and have downloaded ver 11 from the website, which is my source of the Z-figure files. I can load the .pdf files, but obviously can't use them in cad. I'm running in Win2000. Any ideas what my problem is? Thanks in advance for any help. Blue skies and tailwinds Jim CH-801 DeltaHawk diesel Augusta GA 90% done, 90% left ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Starting the REAL electrical work on my 601XL
From: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 10, 2008
First off, I'm not an electrician but I wasn't a metals guy before I started building my plane either. I've gotten my Corvair engine built by William Wynne and will be starting the electrical work shortly and could use all the advice I can get. I understand because of the Corvair I'll have to make changes to any of the AeroElectric plans but I could use some advise on which one to start with. Here's what the plane will have electric wise. Icom A210 Garmin 320 Garmin 496 Landing and Taxi Lights RAC trim on both aileron and elevator Dynon 180 Strobes on the wings Nav Lights Electric Flaps As I mentioned the WW Corvair engine has a unique ignition system Single plug per cylinder and dual ignition one points and one electronic. There are also two inline electric fuel pumps on the engine side of the firewall. They will be wired along with the ignition so that a single switch switches both ignition system and fuel pumps. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187241#187241 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 2008
Subject: Re: Starting the REAL electrical work on my 601XL
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
> > snip > firewall. They will be wired along with the ignition so that a single > switch switches both ignition system and fuel pumps. > It's possible I don't clearly understand how you'll be wiring the fuel pumps and ignition system(s).. But it sounds like you are saying that there will be a single switch controlling everything. If so, I believe this switch represents a single point of failure, which is generally undesirable for flight critical electrical items - at least when it comes to switches... If the switch falls apart, the engine could stop running(?). > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > Regards, Matt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 2008
From: Dale Rogers <dale.r(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Drilling Switch holes in aluminum?
Ron, Wrong kind of "punch". Take a lot at the Harbor Freight # 91201 punch set: [ http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91201 ] One drills a center/pilot hole for the through-bolt, which pulls the two halves of the punch together through the panel. No throat size to worry about. Dale R. COZY MkIV #0497 Ch. 13 Ron Shannon wrote: > On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Robert Feldtman > wrote: > > a "punch" is better - they are on sale at Harbour freight > > bobf > > > A good punch is great if you can get one with a deep enough throat to > reach the locations on your panel and if it will punch a 15/32" hole > spec'd for the S700 series switches. The one I got from HF (#91510) > has a 3-1/4" throat which wouldn't reach some of the holes in other > parts of my layout and only goes up to a 7/16" hole. > > Ron ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Problem with TurboCAD
> >Bob (and List), > >Help! >I'm trying to load Z figures into TurboCAD, and I keep getting "cannot open >file" errors. I've downloaded TurboCAD Learning Edition from two different >sources on the internet, and both give the same results. I purchased a >paper copy of Aeroelectric Connection ver 10, and have downloaded ver 11 >from the website, which is my source of the Z-figure files. I can load the >.pdf files, but obviously can't use them in cad. I'm running in Win2000. >Any ideas what my problem is? > >Thanks in advance for any help.\ Don't know what the "learning edition" is. I have copies of TurboCAD 7 and TurboCAD v10 on my computer. Both open, edit, print and save the .dwg files from the website. You can get a "real" copy of TurboCAD dirt cheap from sources like: http://tinyurl.com/44fhvd Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 2008
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon(at)CRUZCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Drilling Switch holes in aluminum?
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 3:51 PM, Dale Rogers wrote: > > Ron, > > Wrong kind of "punch". Take a lot at the Harbor Freight # 91201 punch > set: > > [ http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91201 ] > > One drills a center/pilot hole for the through-bolt, which pulls the two > halves of the punch together through the panel. No throat size to worry > about. > > Dale R. > COZY MkIV #0497 > Ch. 13 Yes, of course, but... still no 15/32" for the S700's. Ron ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 2008
From: The Kuffels <kuffel(at)cyberport.net>
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
Eric, Am loath to get between you and Bob when discussing electrons but don't understand what you said about bridge diode heat dissipation. If one diode is running 20 amps with a forward voltage of 0.6 then it generates 0.6 x 20 = 12 watts of heat. If two diodes in parallel are carrying the same 20 amps then the current is split between the two diodes, with each having more or less half the load with a total of 20 amps between them. So each diode is generating about half of 12 watts with a total generation of still only 12 watts not 24. What am I missing? Tom, AL7AU ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Allen Fulmer" <afulmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: Problem with Turbo CAD
Date: Jun 10, 2008
Bob, I bought one of the "cheap" copies of Turbo CAD 10.2 and it opens the Zxx files just fine. Problem is, I can't seem to find any of the tutorials on their web site. I suspect they pull them after some number of newer versions are released. I'm sure a policy designed to sell more upgrades. I recently took a little intro CAD course at the local junior college but they were using AutoCAD 2008. Little similarity I am afraid (no command line in TC) so was looking for some way to learn TC without printing out the 400 plus page pdf document on the CDROM. Amy suggestions on learning TC 10.2 other than to just tough it out? At any rate, thanks for all the wonderful information and drawings. Couldn't do this wiring thing without it. Thanks again, Allen Fulmer RV7 working on electrical Alexander City, AL >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >>>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On >>>Behalf Of Robert >>>L. Nuckolls, III >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 6:18 PM >>>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >>>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Problem with TurboCAD >>> >>> >>>Nuckolls, III" >>> >>> >>>> >>>>Bob (and List), >>>> >>>>Help! >>>>I'm trying to load Z figures into TurboCAD, and I keep >>>getting "cannot open >>>>file" errors. I've downloaded TurboCAD Learning Edition >>>from two different >>>>sources on the internet, and both give the same results. I >>>purchased a >>>>paper copy of Aeroelectric Connection ver 10, and have >>>downloaded ver 11 >>>>from the website, which is my source of the Z-figure files. >>> I can load the >>>>.pdf files, but obviously can't use them in cad. I'm >>>running in Win2000. >>>>Any ideas what my problem is? >>>> >>>>Thanks in advance for any help.\ >>> >>> Don't know what the "learning edition" is. I have copies >>> of TurboCAD 7 and TurboCAD v10 on my computer. Both open, >>> edit, print and save the .dwg files from the website. You >>> can get a "real" copy of TurboCAD dirt cheap from sources like: >>> >>>http://tinyurl.com/44fhvd >>> >>> >>> Bob . . . >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 2008
From: Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net>
Subject: Ground power for dual battery dual buss Z-14
I would like to install a ground power outlet/jack on my airplane. I have a copy of Bob's article from the website. I have a dual battery, dual buss (Z14) system installed as close as I could to Bob's diagram. Is there anything unique that I should do when installing the above? I suppose that the most likely need/use for this would be in the event that with the plane away from home base,one or both electric systems were left on after engine shutdown, and both batteries drained to the point where they would not crank the engine. 1. If the ground power was only installed to connect to one (the primary) battery is there any consideration that needs to be taken to protect/isolate the other battery during a start using ground power. (The Z14 momentarily couples both elec systems together during start). 2. With only a single ground power jack is there any 'reasonable' way to 'charge' both batteries through this jack? Exposing my lack of electrical confidence/understanding. Deems Davis ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 2008
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
I'm with you Tom.. The only thing I'd add is that a diode has a pretty sharp knee in it's I-V curve - where it's "resistance" goes from looking high (small change in I for a large change in V) to where it's "resistance" looks low (large change in I for small change in V). If two unmatched devices are used in parallel, process differences between them can cause one of the devices to turn on (forward bias) before the other, and carry noticeable more current in that operating region. Since significantly more voltage than the knee voltage is available in this application, we can be fairly confident that both devices will be fully forward biased, and the power drop should be fairly equal. It's also likely that both devices come from the same fab lot (and wafer) and so their electrical properties are probably essentially matched. Regards, Matt > > > Eric, > > Am loath to get between you and Bob when discussing electrons but > don't understand what you said about bridge diode heat > dissipation. If one diode is running 20 amps with a forward > voltage of 0.6 then it generates 0.6 x 20 = 12 watts of heat. > If two diodes in parallel are carrying the same 20 amps then the > current is split between the two diodes, with each having more or > less half the load with a total of 20 amps between them. So each > diode is generating about half of 12 watts with a total > generation of still only 12 watts not 24. > > What am I missing? > > Tom, AL7AU > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Ground power for dual battery dual buss Z-14
Date: Jun 10, 2008
From: "John Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>
With the RV-10 and internal ground straps (back in the baggage area) it is not as critical. But I love to see electric shrink wrap and prosealed ends on ground straps that are FWF. The strap loves to wick hydrocarbons and promote corrosion - over the life of an aircraft. It makes cleaning for Conditional Inspections a breeze. John Cox -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 5:39 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ground power for dual battery dual buss Z-14 I would like to install a ground power outlet/jack on my airplane. I have a copy of Bob's article from the website. I have a dual battery, dual buss (Z14) system installed as close as I could to Bob's diagram. Is there anything unique that I should do when installing the above? I suppose that the most likely need/use for this would be in the event that with the plane away from home base,one or both electric systems were left on after engine shutdown, and both batteries drained to the point where they would not crank the engine. 1. If the ground power was only installed to connect to one (the primary) battery is there any consideration that needs to be taken to protect/isolate the other battery during a start using ground power. (The Z14 momentarily couples both elec systems together during start). 2. With only a single ground power jack is there any 'reasonable' way to 'charge' both batteries through this jack? Exposing my lack of electrical confidence/understanding. Deems Davis ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jun 10, 2008
> Eric, > > Am loath to get between you and Bob when discussing electrons but > don't understand what you said about bridge diode heat > dissipation. If one diode is running 20 amps with a forward > voltage of 0.6 then it generates 0.6 x 20 = 12 watts of heat. > If two diodes in parallel are carrying the same 20 amps then the > current is split between the two diodes, with each having more or > less half the load with a total of 20 amps between them. So each > diode is generating about half of 12 watts with a total > generation of still only 12 watts not 24. > What am I missing? > Tom, AL7AU Tom et al. If either one or two or a hundred conventional diodes is sharing the load, they still dissipate Vf X A. Where A is the current through the device; in this case the Full Wave Bridge (FWB) or Schottky Module. The important point is that Vf is not reduced by putting parts in parallel. (But it is increased by putting parts in series....) (True, each diode carries less current, but the package is what we bolt to the heat sink. In fact you can distribute the heat dissipation by distributing the parts, and this is done on some designs, since small parts have greater surface area per volume, so they might not need a heat sink at all.) > If one diode is running 20 amps with a forward > voltage of 0.6 then it generates 0.6 x 20 = 12 watts of heat. If pigs had wings!....The error I pointed out is the claim that a B & C FWB, when wired so that two diodes are parallel, would have a Vf of 0.6. It does not; the Vf is often 1.2 maybe, and someone incorrectly assumed that the diodes being in parallel made the Vf sum 0.6. The very best conventional FWB diodes are 0.9Vf at 10A for each diode (you can't buy these at Radio Shack), so it dissipates (2X0.9X10A=) 18W VERY BEST CASE., and 24W worst case if the diodes are Vf=1.2. By the way, FWB packages are just four diodes wired up to four terminals and epoxy potted in a little box. You could make your own, but it's easier to abandon the concept entirely. Hope this doesn't scramble it more. For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled. -- Richard P. Feynman -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187299#187299 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 2008
From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
So you're saying that any given diode (of the four) in a conventional, inexpensive potted FWB rectifier has a Vf typ of 1.2V? That's news - very bad news. I always thought 0.6V was closer to average, per Si diode, and about half that for Ge diodes. Learned something today. -Bill B On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 9:57 PM, Eric M. Jones wrote: > emjones(at)charter.net> > > > > Eric, > > > > Am loath to get between you and Bob when discussing electrons but > > don't understand what you said about bridge diode heat > > dissipation. If one diode is running 20 amps with a forward > > voltage of 0.6 then it generates 0.6 x 20 = 12 watts of heat. > > If two diodes in parallel are carrying the same 20 amps then the > > current is split between the two diodes, with each having more or > > less half the load with a total of 20 amps between them. So each > > diode is generating about half of 12 watts with a total > > generation of still only 12 watts not 24. > > What am I missing? > > Tom, AL7AU > > > Tom et al. > > If either one or two or a hundred conventional diodes is sharing the load, > they still dissipate Vf X A. Where A is the current through the device; in > this case the Full Wave Bridge (FWB) or Schottky Module. > > The important point is that Vf is not reduced by putting parts in parallel. > (But it is increased by putting parts in series....) > > (True, each diode carries less current, but the package is what we bolt to > the heat sink. In fact you can distribute the heat dissipation by > distributing the parts, and this is done on some designs, since small parts > have greater surface area per volume, so they might not need a heat sink at > all.) > > > > If one diode is running 20 amps with a forward > > voltage of 0.6 then it generates 0.6 x 20 = 12 watts of heat. > > > If pigs had wings!....The error I pointed out is the claim that a B & C > FWB, when wired so that two diodes are parallel, would have a Vf of 0.6. It > does not; the Vf is often 1.2 maybe, and someone incorrectly assumed that > the diodes being in parallel made the Vf sum 0.6. The very best conventional > FWB diodes are 0.9Vf at 10A for each diode (you can't buy these at Radio > Shack), so it dissipates (2X0.9X10A=) 18W VERY BEST CASE., and 24W worst > case if the diodes are Vf=1.2. > > By the way, FWB packages are just four diodes wired up to four terminals > and epoxy potted in a little box. You could make your own, but it's easier > to abandon the concept entirely. > > Hope this doesn't scramble it more. > > For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public > relations, for Nature cannot be fooled. > -- Richard P. Feynman > > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187299#187299 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 2008
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
I believe a normal Si diode has a Vf around 0.6V - 0.7V. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode A bridge rectifier would normally be wired so that two diodes are in series. However, many of these bridge rectifiers are built to allow access to all four nodes of the circuit. http://www.vishay.com/docs/88612/gbpc12.pdf This datasheet indeed shows a Vf of 1.1V - used as a rectifier. I'm pretty sure this is measured across the + and - terminals - two diodes in series. I believe it has been proposed that these rectifiers be used to feed the E-bus by shorting across two of the diodes and paralleling the other two, and a Vf = 0.6V. I missed the original reference to the B&C guidance that paralleling dropped the Vf. Please post that if you have it.. Regards, Matt- > > > >> Eric, >> >> Am loath to get between you and Bob when discussing electrons but >> don't understand what you said about bridge diode heat >> dissipation. If one diode is running 20 amps with a forward >> voltage of 0.6 then it generates 0.6 x 20 = 12 watts of heat. >> If two diodes in parallel are carrying the same 20 amps then the >> current is split between the two diodes, with each having more or >> less half the load with a total of 20 amps between them. So each >> diode is generating about half of 12 watts with a total >> generation of still only 12 watts not 24. >> What am I missing? >> Tom, AL7AU > > > Tom et al. > > If either one or two or a hundred conventional diodes is sharing the load, > they still dissipate Vf X A. Where A is the current through the device; in > this case the Full Wave Bridge (FWB) or Schottky Module. > > The important point is that Vf is not reduced by putting parts in > parallel. (But it is increased by putting parts in series....) > > (True, each diode carries less current, but the package is what we bolt to > the heat sink. In fact you can distribute the heat dissipation by > distributing the parts, and this is done on some designs, since small > parts have greater surface area per volume, so they might not need a heat > sink at all.) > > >> If one diode is running 20 amps with a forward >> voltage of 0.6 then it generates 0.6 x 20 = 12 watts of heat. > > > If pigs had wings!....The error I pointed out is the claim that a B & C > FWB, when wired so that two diodes are parallel, would have a Vf of 0.6. > It does not; the Vf is often 1.2 maybe, and someone incorrectly assumed > that the diodes being in parallel made the Vf sum 0.6. The very best > conventional FWB diodes are 0.9Vf at 10A for each diode (you can't buy > these at Radio Shack), so it dissipates (2X0.9X10A=) 18W VERY BEST CASE., > and 24W worst case if the diodes are Vf=1.2. > > By the way, FWB packages are just four diodes wired up to four terminals > and epoxy potted in a little box. You could make your own, but it's easier > to abandon the concept entirely. > > Hope this doesn't scramble it more. > > For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public > relations, for Nature cannot be fooled. > -- Richard P. Feynman > > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187299#187299 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 11, 2008
From: The Kuffels <kuffel(at)cyberport.net>
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
Eric, Still don't follow you. I said: << If one diode is running 20 amps with a forward voltage of 0.6 then it generates 0.6 x 20 = 12 watts of heat. If two diodes in parallel are carrying the same 20 amps then the current is split between the two diodes .. each diode is generating about half of 12 watts with a total generation of still only 12 watts not 24. >> You said: << If either one or two or a hundred conventional diodes is sharing the load, they still dissipate Vf X A. >> Agreed. But each diode is carrying a smaller fraction of the same total amps so the total example heat generated remains 12 watts. Put algebraically: Let Vf x A = 12 Watts Let 3 diodes in parallel carry the same total current so Vf1 = Vf2 = Vf3 = Vf a1 + a2 + a3 = A Then (Vf1 x a1) + (Vf2 x a2) + (Vf3 x a3) = Vf x (a1 + a2 + a3) = Vf x A = 12 watts << Vf is not reduced by putting parts in parallel. >> Never said it did reduce Vf. (I've always used 0.7V for silicon and 0.3V for germanium in my minimal design work but a Vf of 0.6V is close enough also for this discussion.) I did say it reduced the current carried by each individual part. << but the package is what we bolt to the heat sink. >> But the package in your example is still only generating 12 watts of heat, not 24. See below. << claim that a B & C FWB, when wired so that two diodes are parallel, would have a Vf of 0.6. It does not; the Vf is often 1.2 maybe, and someone incorrectly assumed that the diodes being in parallel made the Vf sum 0.6. The very best conventional FWB diodes are 0.9Vf at 10A for each diode (you can't buy these at Radio Shack), so it dissipates (2X0.9X10A=) 18W VERY BEST CASE., and 24W worst case if the diodes are Vf=1.2. >> As Matt says, a Vf of 1.2 is only true when the FWB is wired up as a full wave rectifier. Then there are indeed two diodes working in *series* for each half cycle with a Vf of about 1.3V. Perhaps, you might be referring to the fact the forward voltage drop across a single diode increases from the turn-on voltage value with increasing current. This can get above 1 volt at high currents. But your use of 0.6V clearly made the discussion at the turn-on voltage point not the Vf at high current. The situation is the same whether we talk about Vf at turn-on current or Vf at high current as long as we remain consistent. And as an aside, putting diodes in parallel brings us lower on the current scale for each device and closer to its turn-on voltage. In other words, putting diodes in parallel lowers (slightly) the total heat generated for the same total current. In parallel, each diode still has it's original Vf and since they are in parallel they don't add voltages. Whether there is 1 or 100 diodes in the package, they are still only carrying the original example 20 amps total with a voltage drop between the input terminal and the output terminal of one Vf since there is only one diode drop between the terminals no matter how many diodes are wired in parallel in between. << FWB ... You could make your own, but it's easier to abandon the concept entirely. >> Not claiming to be a FWB fan for this application. Just don't see how running 20 amps total across one diode drop doubles the heat generated when another diode is added to share the same current. Under this logic, 8 diodes in parallel would generate 96 watts, 16 would generate 192 watts, etc. which is obviously not what you mean to imply. Basically, do not see how wiring diodes in parallel causes their forward voltage drops to add together as you seem to be saying. Tom, AL7AU ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 11, 2008
From: Bob White <bob@bob-white.com>
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
If you look up single silicon diodes in the 10 A to 20 A current rating on Mouser or Digikey, you will find the Vf is 1.1 Volts or higher for most of them. For example, a 1N3210 (a 15 A unit) is 1.5 V at 15 amps. Look up a 1N4007 rated at 1 amp. Vf is 1.1V. Eric is right on the money on this. He is just saying you can't use 0.6 Volts for Vf because you have two 1.2 volt devices in parallel. Bob W. The Kuffels wrote: > > Eric, > > Still don't follow you. > > I said: > << If one diode is running 20 amps with a forward voltage of 0.6 > then it generates 0.6 x 20 = 12 watts of heat. If two diodes in > parallel are carrying the same 20 amps then the current is split > between the two diodes .. each diode is generating about half of > 12 watts with a total generation of still only 12 watts not 24. >> > > You said: > << If either one or two or a hundred conventional diodes is > sharing the load, they still dissipate Vf X A. >> > > Agreed. But each diode is carrying a smaller fraction of the > same total amps so the total example heat generated remains 12 > watts. Put algebraically: > > Let Vf x A = 12 Watts > Let 3 diodes in parallel carry the same total current so > Vf1 = Vf2 = Vf3 = Vf > a1 + a2 + a3 = A > Then > (Vf1 x a1) + (Vf2 x a2) + (Vf3 x a3) = Vf x (a1 + a2 + a3) > = Vf x A = 12 watts > > << Vf is not reduced by putting parts in parallel. >> > > Never said it did reduce Vf. (I've always used 0.7V for silicon > and 0.3V for germanium in my minimal design work but a Vf of 0.6V > is close enough also for this discussion.) I did say it reduced > the current carried by each individual part. > > << but the package is what we bolt to the heat sink. >> > > But the package in your example is still only generating 12 watts > of heat, not 24. See below. > > << claim that a B & C FWB, when wired so that two diodes are > parallel, would have a Vf of 0.6. It does not; the Vf is often > 1.2 maybe, and someone incorrectly assumed that the diodes being > in parallel made the Vf sum 0.6. The very best conventional FWB > diodes are 0.9Vf at 10A for each diode (you can't buy these at > Radio Shack), so it dissipates (2X0.9X10A=) 18W VERY BEST CASE., > and 24W worst case if the diodes are Vf=1.2. >> > > As Matt says, a Vf of 1.2 is only true when the FWB is wired up > as a full wave rectifier. Then there are indeed two diodes > working in *series* for each half cycle with a Vf of about 1.3V. > > Perhaps, you might be referring to the fact the forward voltage > drop across a single diode increases from the turn-on voltage > value with increasing current. This can get above 1 volt at high > currents. But your use of 0.6V clearly made the discussion at > the turn-on voltage point not the Vf at high current. The > situation is the same whether we talk about Vf at turn-on current > or Vf at high current as long as we remain consistent. > > And as an aside, putting diodes in parallel brings us lower on > the current scale for each device and closer to its turn-on > voltage. In other words, putting diodes in parallel lowers > (slightly) the total heat generated for the same total current. > > In parallel, each diode still has it's original Vf and since they > are in parallel they don't add voltages. Whether there is 1 or > 100 diodes in the package, they are still only carrying the > original example 20 amps total with a voltage drop between the > input terminal and the output terminal of one Vf since there is > only one diode drop between the terminals no matter how many > diodes are wired in parallel in between. > > << FWB ... You could make your own, but it's easier to abandon > the concept entirely. >> > > Not claiming to be a FWB fan for this application. Just don't > see how running 20 amps total across one diode drop doubles the > heat generated when another diode is added to share the same > current. Under this logic, 8 diodes in parallel would generate > 96 watts, 16 would generate 192 watts, etc. which is obviously > not what you mean to imply. > > Basically, do not see how wiring diodes in parallel causes their > forward voltage drops to add together as you seem to be saying. > > Tom, AL7AU > -- N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/cables/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jun 11, 2008
> If you look up single silicon diodes in the 10 A to 20 A current rating > on Mouser or Digikey, you will find the Vf is 1.1 Volts or higher for > most of them. For example, a 1N3210 (a 15 A unit) is 1.5 V at 15 amps. > Look up a 1N4007 rated at 1 amp. Vf is 1.1V. Eric is right on the > money on this. He is just saying you can't use 0.6 Volts for Vf because > you have two 1.2 volt devices in parallel. > Bob W. Yeah...What HE said...! Thanks, Bob White. I can't in any reasonable time answer some previous posts, but there are a couple issues that seem to confuse some people: The FWB when used as Bob N. and B & C recommends uses two diodes in parallel. The watts dissipated by the part at 20A is WORST CASE 1.2 x 20=24Watts. The Vf of a diode is a strongly influenced by current. A diode can be 0.7 Vf at zero Amps, and 1.0 Vf at 10A and 1.2 Vf at 12.5. For this you have to read the data sheet. What?! Radio Shack doesn't supply one?! Then just guess and hope you're right. Double up on the life insurance, too. "In times of rapid change, experience could be your worst enemy." --Jean Paul Getty -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187361#187361


May 26, 2008 - June 11, 2008

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