AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-hx

June 11, 2008 - July 02, 2008



      
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Subject: Re: Starting the REAL electrical work on my 601XL
From: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 11, 2008
No, you are right that is a single point of failure and I'm not blowing you off on the issue but is has been discussed to death in other forums and it has become the standard method for the William Wynne Corvair conversion. Very quickly the theory is in the case of an engine failure there is generally going to be only to failure modes you can do anything about in the cockpit. One is the fuel system and one is the ignition system. With the single switch design you put in a fresh fuel pump and a fresh ignition system online. We do try to use the best Mil-Spec switch we can find to at least reduce the chance. The theory goes on that multiple switches introduces multiple single points of failure and while we hate them they are in every plane that ever flew and it also introduces switchology issues that have a greater chance of pilot error than does the single switch. I agree the more equipment fault resistant method would be 4 switches one for each pump and one for each ignition. But in the case of an engine outage the pilot then has to run through multiple switch settings to figure out the problem. It all comes down to the guy that designed the conversion came up with this method and there are a bunch of planes flying with it. I'm not tempted at this point to change it. [quote="mprather(at)spro.net] It's possible I don't clearly understand how you'll be wiring the fuel pumps and ignition system(s).. But it sounds like you are saying that there will be a single switch controlling everything. If so, I believe this switch represents a single point of failure, which is generally undesirable for flight critical electrical items - at least when it comes to switches... If the switch falls apart, the engine could stop running(?). Matt[/quote] -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187372#187372 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Loran to VHF
Date: Jun 11, 2008
Bob, Can a Loran antenna (CI 121 SP) be converted/trimmed into a VHF Comm. antenna? Thanks Bevan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>
Date: Jun 11, 2008
Subject: Re: Starting the REAL electrical work on my 601XL
It also very easy to have 4 swithes in a prominent location as I do on the RV (electric fuel pumps only) and did have on my 601HDS. If the engine quits all 4 get banged upwards regardless... As to adding points of failure this is simply untrue, you have a separate fuse, wiring, switch for each discreet component...Its a fault tolerant design. I understand that you are comfortable with the system and if that your chocie go with it..William is a sharp guy but fuel pumps halfway up on the engine side of the firewall (at least it was that way in the last picture I saw) is a vapour lock prone design and single POF electrical system are two big no-nos for me. Frank 601 HDS 500 hours RV7a (IO360) all electric -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 8:57 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starting the REAL electrical work on my 601XL --> No, you are right that is a single point of failure and I'm not blowing you off on the issue but is has been discussed to death in other forums and it has become the standard method for the William Wynne Corvair conversion. Very quickly the theory is in the case of an engine failure there is generally going to be only to failure modes you can do anything about in the cockpit. One is the fuel system and one is the ignition system. With the single switch design you put in a fresh fuel pump and a fresh ignition system online. We do try to use the best Mil-Spec switch we can find to at least reduce the chance. The theory goes on that multiple switches introduces multiple single points of failure and while we hate them they are in every plane that ever flew and it also introduces switchology issues that have a greater chance of pilot error than does the single switch. I agree the more equipment fault resistant method would be 4 switches one for each pump and one for each ignition. But in the case of an engine outage the pilot then has to run through multiple switch settings to figure out the problem. It all comes down to the guy that designed the conversion came up with this method and there are a bunch of planes flying with it. I'm not tempted at this point to change it. [quote="mprather(at)spro.net] It's possible I don't clearly understand how you'll be wiring the fuel pumps and ignition system(s).. But it sounds like you are saying that there will be a single switch controlling everything. If so, I believe this switch represents a single point of failure, which is generally undesirable for flight critical electrical items - at least when it comes to switches... If the switch falls apart, the engine could stop running(?). Matt[/quote] -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187372#187372 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 11, 2008
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
I think this is the point that nobody was making.. Vf is not the knee voltage. Bob White sent me a link to a Fairchild datasheet that showed the I-V curve for one of their devices. Forward biasing conduction got going around 0.6V - 0.7V, but at the rated current the voltage drop was up around 1.0V - 1.1V. Eric, had you mentioned this early in the discussion, I think we could have avoided a bunch of this churning... http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/1N/1N4007.pdf I still haven't seen where B&C stated that the voltage drop would be half by running in parallel.. Certainly the voltage drop is reduced by running the diode lower on the I-V curve for a given buss current.. But not by half obviously. Maybe an estimate would be halfway between the published Vf and the knee voltage. Regards, Matt > The Vf of a diode is a strongly influenced by current. A diode can be 0.7 > Vf at zero Amps, and 1.0 Vf at 10A and 1.2 Vf at 12.5. For this you have to read the data sheet. What?! Radio Shack doesn't supply one?! Then just > guess and hope you're right. Double up on the life insurance, too. > > > "In times of rapid change, experience could be your worst enemy." > --Jean Paul Getty > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187361#187361 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 11, 2008
From: "Robert Feldtman" <bobf(at)feldtman.com>
Subject: Re: Drilling Switch holes in aluminum?
wouldn't the 1/2 inch do? 15/32 is only slightly smaller, I bet it would work fine. agree with dale's suggestion bobf On 6/10/08, Ron Shannon wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 3:51 PM, Dale Rogers wrote: > >> >> Ron, >> >> Wrong kind of "punch". Take a lot at the Harbor Freight # 91201 punch >> set: >> >> [ http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91201] >> >> One drills a center/pilot hole for the through-bolt, which pulls the two >> halves of the punch together through the panel. No throat size to worry >> about. >> >> Dale R. >> COZY MkIV #0497 >> Ch. 13 > > > Yes, of course, but... still no 15/32" for the S700's. > > Ron > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jun 11, 2008
> I think this is the point that nobody was making.. Vf is not the knee voltage. Bob White sent me a link to a Fairchild datasheet that showed the I-V curve for one of their devices. Forward biasing conduction got going around 0.6V - 0.7V, but at the rated current the voltage drop was up around 1.0V - 1.1V. Eric, had you mentioned this early in the discussion, I think we could have avoided a bunch of this churning... > http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/1N/1N4007.pdf > I still haven't seen where B&C stated that the voltage drop would be half > by running in parallel.. Certainly the voltage drop is reduced by running > the diode lower on the I-V curve for a given buss current.. But not by > half obviously. Maybe an estimate would be halfway between the published Vf and the knee voltage. > Regards, Matt Matt, et al. See: http://www.bandc.biz/Diode_Installation.pdf I don't claim that B & C ever stated that diodes' Vf could be summed like parallel mosfets (etc.). But I saw the 0.6 Vf on their schematic as a very suspicious indicator that somebody thought so, and that this should be attended to. Yes, Matt, maybe I should have clarified some points earlier. But it was 100 degrees yesterday, fer chis'sakes. Thanks for your sage input. (Ahem...which you should have said earlier....) -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187390#187390 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 11, 2008
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Starting the REAL electrical work on my 601XL
Gig I agree with you, keep it simple for single ignition and fuel injection. A thought for anyone who has not followed such discussions though is the case of systems that don't always fail passive. A real life example would be that the the primary ignition system starts sending out erratically timed sparks. My reflex action is to turn on the second ignition and fuel pump if the engine hickups in any way. All switches on. Time permitting, if that does not fix things, I next might try turning off the primary ignition. There are cases where that restored the engine. Can't do that though if the primary ignition is on the same switch as single fuel injection. Ken Gig Giacona wrote: > > > No, you are right that is a single point of failure and I'm not > blowing you off on the issue but is has been discussed to death in > other forums and it has become the standard method for the William > Wynne Corvair conversion. Very quickly the theory is in the case of > an engine failure there is generally going to be only to failure > modes you can do anything about in the cockpit. One is the fuel > system and one is the ignition system. With the single switch design > you put in a fresh fuel pump and a fresh ignition system online. We > do try to use the best Mil-Spec switch we can find to at least reduce > the chance. The theory goes on that multiple switches introduces > multiple single points of failure and while we hate them they are in > every plane that ever flew and it also introduces switchology issues > that have a greater chance of pilot error than does the single > switch. > > I agree the more equipment fault resistant method would be 4 switches > one for each pump and one for each ignition. But in the case of an > engine outage the pilot then has to run through multiple switch > settings to figure out the problem. > > It all comes down to the guy that designed the conversion came up > with this method and there are a bunch of planes flying with it. I'm > not tempted at this point to change it. > > > > > [quote="mprather(at)spro.net] > > It's possible I don't clearly understand how you'll be wiring the > fuel pumps and ignition system(s).. But it sounds like you are > saying that there will be a single switch controlling everything. If > so, I believe this switch represents a single point of failure, which > is generally undesirable for flight critical electrical items - at > least when it comes to switches... If the switch falls apart, the > engine could stop running(?). > > Matt[/quote] > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 11, 2008
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
Eric M. Jones wrote: > The Vf of a diode is a strongly influenced by current. A diode can be 0.7 Vf at zero Amps, and 1.0 Vf at 10A and 1.2 Vf at 12.5. For this you have to read the data sheet. What?! Radio Shack doesn't supply one?! Then just guess and hope you're right. Double up on the life insurance, too. > > Wow! Hyperbole and fearmongering. All in the same post. Are you sure you don't work for those 'news" organizations that tell us how we're killing all our children with minute traces of pesticides in our apples? You could have a career there, you know. You're trying to sell a product with minor improvements in areas that don't matter. Your diode uses half the power. We get it. The only time that would possibly mean anything is in a power out situation. In that situation, it will be removed from the circuit with a switch. The rest of the time, the RadioShack solution is wasting 12W of heat. That is 0.016 horsepower [international], which will mean the difference between hitting the trees versus warbird type climb out (NOT!). If a system is so loaded that 12W makes a difference during normal operations the plane won't be flying much anyway. The alternator/generator will be constantly burning up. You state your solution doesn't weigh as much. OK. Some guys obsess over every ounce. More power to them. If I needed 100 of these, it might make a difference. The call out is for exactly one in most cases. The draft in the closed hangar when I weigh my plane will have more effect on the finish weight. The Radio Shack rectifier has been recommended, and presumably used by builders, for years. It has proven adequate to the tasks asked of it. It was chosen for its price, availability, and ease of construction. If it there had been any instance of them causing harm, financial or physical, someone somewhere would have said something about it. Enough with the smoke, mirrors and demagogy. You stated the benefits of your solution. Some see validity to your claims and buy your products, just like some people swear by mystery chemical fuel additives. Most took a look and responded with a big "Ho-hum". To suggest at this point that a Radio Shack rectifier would require someone to need more life insurance in an attempt to sell more product is at best ridiculous, and at worst downright scandalous. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 11, 2008
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
> > snip > Yes, Matt, maybe I should have clarified some points earlier. But it was > 100 degrees yesterday, fer chis'sakes. Thanks for your sage input. > (Ahem...which you should have said earlier....) > Glad I can bust your chops a bit.. :) Stay cool... > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > Regards, Matt- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave VanLanen" <davevanlanen(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Creation Of Wiring Diagram
Date: Jun 11, 2008
For builders that are creating a wiring diagram, what are you using to create it? Are you creating with pencil and paper, or have you found any way to computerize it? Is a tool such as TurboCAD capable of creating a large full-aircraft drawing that can then be printed out? Dave ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 11, 2008
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon(at)CRUZCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Drilling Switch holes in aluminum?
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 10:00 AM, Robert Feldtman wrote: > wouldn't the 1/2 inch do? 15/32 is only slightly smaller, I bet it would > work fine. .... Actually, the S700 series switches are already a bit loose in the mfgr.'s recommended 15/32" hole. Consequently, I would prefer to follow the vendor's recommendation and not mount them even more loosely. So to respond to your query, no, I don't think 1/2" holes are a good idea for these switches. Ron ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 11, 2008
From: "Roger & Jean" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: "Dead horse"
Lets not beat the bridge diodes any more!! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 11, 2008
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Creation Of Wiring Diagram
Dave VanLanen wrote: > For builders that are creating a wiring diagram, what are you using to > create it? Are you creating with pencil and paper, or have you found any > way to computerize it? Is a tool such as TurboCAD capable of creating a > large full-aircraft drawing that can then be printed out? > > Dave > > I'm using Dia, an open-source diagramming tool. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 11, 2008
From: LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com>
Subject: Re: Creation Of Wiring Diagram
Hi Dave, I've found TurboCAD very nice for doing electrical plans and 3D drawings as well. It's a full featured program that's reasonable to buy. After a life with AutoCAD and ProE, it's a better personal solution for the individual designer. These drawings were done in version 10, but they've been maintained thru version 15. http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/primary-wiring.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/largeassembly2/full/eltdwg.gif Awesome program easy to learn............ Larry McFarland at www.macsmachine.com Dave VanLanen wrote: > > For builders that are creating a wiring diagram, what are you using to > create it? Are you creating with pencil and paper, or have you found > any way to computerize it? Is a tool such as TurboCAD capable of > creating a large full-aircraft drawing that can then be printed out? > > Dave > > * > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vernon Little" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net>
Subject: Creation Of Wiring Diagram
Date: Jun 11, 2008
Here's a link to a great schematic tool (free) and my RV-9A wiring diagram. I prefer to use electrical CAD toos for schematics, rather than the mechanical CAD packages. Click to www.vx-aviation.com (link at top or scroll to bottom of page. I have some other builders who've promised to provide me their schematics as well-- I'll post them as I get them. Thanks Vern Little -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Christley Sent: June 11, 2008 11:54 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Creation Of Wiring Diagram --> Dave VanLanen wrote: > For builders that are creating a wiring diagram, what are you using to > create it? Are you creating with pencil and paper, or have you found > any way to computerize it? Is a tool such as TurboCAD capable of > creating a large full-aircraft drawing that can then be printed out? > > Dave > > I'm using Dia, an open-source diagramming tool. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 11, 2008
From: ptrotter(at)optonline.net
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
All this banter has been very interesting, but I think some people are missing part of the point here. The power dissipation is only one issue in diodes and the lessor important issue in my opinion. It is easy to deal with heat dissipation with the proper heat sink. What concerns me is the voltage drop across a normal diode. I don't to want to lose 1.2 volts if the alternative is to lose less by using a Schotky diode that costs only pennies more. This is especially critical if your alternator fails and you are on battery alone. This voltage drop could be the difference between keeping things running properly and not. Yes, you can parallel the diode with a switch as a direct E-bus feed, but I don't want that voltage drop in normal operations either. Just because something has worked well for years does not mean that newer products that perform better are not available today. While the FWB is a nice package for mounting and wiring, it is no longer the best product for the application. If we were to continue to think this way, there would be no innovation and we would all be running steam gauges rather than EFIS systems. In all these discussions, I have never seen anybody make a statement that a plain diode is the best solution, only that it is adequate. Adequate in not good enough for me if a better solution is available. It is somewhat contradictory to install a 21st centrury flight instument system connected to a 1950's technology power system. Paul Trotter RV-8 Finishing the Wiring ----- Original Message ----- From: Ernest Christley Date: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 1:42 pm Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Bridge Diodes use > > Eric M. Jones wrote: > > The Vf of a diode is a strongly influenced by current. A diode > can be 0.7 Vf at zero Amps, and 1.0 Vf at 10A and 1.2 Vf at > 12.5. For this you have to read the data sheet. What?! Radio > Shack doesn't supply one?! Then just guess and hope you're > right. Double up on the life insurance, too. > > > > > > Wow! Hyperbole and fearmongering. All in the same post. > > Are you sure you don't work for those 'news" organizations that > tell us > how we're killing all our children with minute traces of > pesticides in > our apples? You could have a career there, you know. > > You're trying to sell a product with minor improvements in areas > that > don't matter. Your diode uses half the power. We get it. The > only > time that would possibly mean anything is in a power out > situation. In > that situation, it will be removed from the circuit with a > switch. The > rest of the time, the RadioShack solution is wasting 12W of > heat. That > is 0.016 horsepower [international], which will mean the > difference > between hitting the trees versus warbird type climb out (NOT!). > If a > system is so loaded that 12W makes a difference during normal > operations > the plane won't be flying much anyway. The alternator/generator > will be > constantly burning up. You state your solution doesn't weigh > as much. > OK. Some guys obsess over every ounce. More power to them. > If I > needed 100 of these, it might make a difference. The call out > is for > exactly one in most cases. The draft in the closed hangar when > I weigh > my plane will have more effect on the finish weight. > > The Radio Shack rectifier has been recommended, and presumably > used by > builders, for years. It has proven adequate to the tasks asked > of it. > It was chosen for its price, availability, and ease of > construction. If > it there had been any instance of them causing harm, financial > or > physical, someone somewhere would have said something about it. > Enough > with the smoke, mirrors and demagogy. You stated the benefits > of your > solution. Some see validity to your claims and buy your > products, just > like some people swear by mystery chemical fuel additives. Most > took a > look and responded with a big "Ho-hum". To suggest at this > point that a > Radio Shack rectifier would require someone to need more life > insurance > in an attempt to sell more product is at best ridiculous, and at > worst > downright scandalous. > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>
Date: Jun 11, 2008
Subject: Creation Of Wiring Diagram
When I built the RV I hand drew each of the circuits on the back of a white door in the shop with a Sharpie pen...Easy to correct and modifiy with a solvent rag as you go along..Its still there today and one day I may transfer it to a more "Portable" format..One day..:) -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Christley Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 11:54 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Creation Of Wiring Diagram --> Dave VanLanen wrote: > For builders that are creating a wiring diagram, what are you using to > create it? Are you creating with pencil and paper, or have you found > any way to computerize it? Is a tool such as TurboCAD capable of > creating a large full-aircraft drawing that can then be printed out? > > Dave > > I'm using Dia, an open-source diagramming tool. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 11, 2008
From: Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
I suspect that it wasn't that at all. I suspect it was just someone writing the installation document that "understood" that diodes have about 0.6V drop. It is quite obvious that whomever wrote this didn't know a whole lot about ratings and power dissipation. They didn't know that there is no such thing as a "12W" heatsink without knowing a few more parameters. On the other hand, kudos for trying to educate users! Dick Tasker Eric M. Jones wrote: > Matt, et al. > > See: http://www.bandc.biz/Diode_Installation.pdf > > I don't claim that B & C ever stated that diodes' Vf could be summed like parallel mosfets (etc.). But I saw the 0.6 Vf on their schematic as a very suspicious indicator that somebody thought so, and that this should be attended to. > > Yes, Matt, maybe I should have clarified some points earlier. But it was 100 degrees yesterday, fer chis'sakes. Thanks for your sage input. (Ahem...which you should have said earlier....) > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187390#187390 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Drilling Switch holes in aluminum?
Date: Jun 11, 2008
On 11 Jun 2008, at 14:38, Ron Shannon wrote: > On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 10:00 AM, Robert Feldtman > wrote: > wouldn't the 1/2 inch do? 15/32 is only slightly smaller, I bet it > would work fine. > .... > > Actually, the S700 series switches are already a bit loose in the > mfgr.'s recommended 15/32" hole. Consequently, I would prefer to > follow the vendor's recommendation and not mount them even more > loosely. > I used a Unibit step drill that had a 15/32 step. It did an excellent job - the switches fit very well. -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (FInal Assembly) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Jones" <djones(at)northboone.net>
Subject: Boost pumps
Date: Jun 11, 2008
Bob In the information you sent on the smoke pump wiring, you showed the ground being switched and the positive going directly to the pump. Should the electric fuel be wired the same way? Jonsey ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 12, 2008
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
ptrotter(at)optonline.net wrote: > Yes, you can parallel the diode with a switch as a direct E-bus feed, but I don't want that voltage drop in normal operations either. > Why? I can understand you being bothered by the idea that something is just wasting power. Great. Fix that. That's what's beautiful about getting away from the FAA that would dictate what you can do. But after swapping out the FWB, don't bother giving a big sigh of relief and proclaiming that you just saved someone's life. All you did was scratch and itch, not cure world hunger. > Just because something has worked well for years does not mean that newer products that perform better are not available today. While the FWB is a nice package for mounting and wiring, it is no longer the best product for the application. If we were to continue to think this way, there would be no innovation and we would all be running steam gauges rather than EFIS systems. In all these discussions, I have never seen anybody make a statement that a plain diode is the best solution, only that it is adequate. Adequate in not good enough for me if a better solution is available. It is somewhat contradictory to install a 21st centrury flight instument system connected to a 1950's technology power system. > You'll need to define "best". The BEST I know how to do would be to save up $10K to have someone else paint my airplane. That would be the BEST. But it ain't gonna happen. I'll be painting it in my garage, with my $50 Harbor Freight HVLP gun, and with chemicals that are not guaranteed to kill my family and neighbors. That is adequate. Sufficient. Gets the job done. Then I'll go flying. (The $50 gun did an excellent job with the Polyfiber chemicals on my airplanes belly and control surfaces, BTW. The only problem was the MEK destroyed the can's seal.) The requirement for change isn't to prove the old method inadequate. The requirement is to prove the new method superior. "Superior" includes not just minor esoteric operating benefits, but acquisition, build complexity, cost, and whatever else someone might be concerned about. I say the EFIS is better because it is lighter, more reliable, easier to build into the plane, easier to source (one piece vs several) and cheaper. I'll be buying a Dynon very soon now (I've installed their mounting fixture, but I've been waiting till the last minute to buy the actual unit). Whether you agree with my analysis or not, I have defined what I consider to be "better". OTOH, I see no measurable benefit to the Schottky diode for this application. The argument is that it conserves power in use, but that power consumption doesn't rank worthy of merit. I also see having to purchase from a seperate source being an additional headache. I see the more complex build requirements being more of a headache. While the extra expense is marginal, it is also pointless. The Schottky diode does not meet my criteria for being better. If the Schottky were widely available in a package like the FWB it might be different, but with the information I have I declare the FWB is most definitely the best product for the application. If you feel the arguments presented for Schottky diodes make it a better solution, GREAT!! Go buy you a bagful if it suits you. But realize that many of us don't see it that way, and declaring that we should consider doubling our life insurance is fearmongering, disingenuous bull. There are NO safety issues with the FWB solution. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Creation Of Wiring Diagram
From: "tsts4" <tsts4(at)verizon.net>
Date: Jun 12, 2008
I used Excel. -------- Todd Stovall 728TT (reserved) RV-10 Empacone Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187601#187601 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/wiring_diagram_205.xls ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Dudley" <rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
Date: Jun 12, 2008
Hear Hear!! Ernest. There is an old expression: "Perfection is the enemy of good enough". Though one man's perfection is another's absurd extravagance. Regards, Richard Dudley RV-6A flying with Z-11 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernest Christley" <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 11:08 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Bridge Diodes use > > > ptrotter(at)optonline.net wrote: >> Yes, you can parallel the diode with a switch as a direct E-bus feed, >> but I don't want that voltage drop in normal operations either. >> > Why? I can understand you being bothered by the idea that something is > just wasting power. Great. Fix that. That's what's beautiful about > getting away from the FAA that would dictate what you can do. But after > swapping out the FWB, don't bother giving a big sigh of relief and > proclaiming that you just saved someone's life. All you did was scratch > and itch, not cure world hunger. >> Just because something has worked well for years does not mean that newer >> products that perform better are not available today. While the FWB is a >> nice package for mounting and wiring, it is no longer the best product >> for the application. If we were to continue to think this way, there >> would be no innovation and we would all be running steam gauges rather >> than EFIS systems. In all these discussions, I have never seen anybody >> make a statement that a plain diode is the best solution, only that it is >> adequate. Adequate in not good enough for me if a better solution is >> available. It is somewhat contradictory to install a 21st centrury >> flight instument system connected to a 1950's technology power system. >> > You'll need to define "best". The BEST I know how to do would be to save > up $10K to have someone else paint my airplane. That would be the BEST. > But it ain't gonna happen. I'll be painting it in my garage, with my $50 > Harbor Freight HVLP gun, and with chemicals that are not guaranteed to > kill my family and neighbors. That is adequate. Sufficient. Gets the > job done. Then I'll go flying. (The $50 gun did an excellent job with > the Polyfiber chemicals on my airplanes belly and control surfaces, BTW. > The only problem was the MEK destroyed the can's seal.) > > The requirement for change isn't to prove the old method inadequate. The > requirement is to prove the new method superior. "Superior" includes not > just minor esoteric operating benefits, but acquisition, build complexity, > cost, and whatever else someone might be concerned about. I say the EFIS > is better because it is lighter, more reliable, easier to build into the > plane, easier to source (one piece vs several) and cheaper. I'll be > buying a Dynon very soon now (I've installed their mounting fixture, but > I've been waiting till the last minute to buy the actual unit). Whether > you agree with my analysis or not, I have defined what I consider to be > "better". > > OTOH, I see no measurable benefit to the Schottky diode for this > application. The argument is that it conserves power in use, but that > power consumption doesn't rank worthy of merit. I also see having to > purchase from a seperate source being an additional headache. I see the > more complex build requirements being more of a headache. While the extra > expense is marginal, it is also pointless. The Schottky diode does not > meet my criteria for being better. If the Schottky were widely available > in a package like the FWB it might be different, but with the information > I have I declare the FWB is most definitely the best product for the > application. > > If you feel the arguments presented for Schottky diodes make it a better > solution, GREAT!! Go buy you a bagful if it suits you. But realize that > many of us don't see it that way, and declaring that we should consider > doubling our life insurance is fearmongering, disingenuous bull. There > are NO safety issues with the FWB solution. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 12, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Loran to VHF
> > >Bob, > >Can a Loran antenna (CI 121 SP) be converted/trimmed into a VHF Comm. >antenna? > >Thanks Probably not. LORAN is a low frequency (100 KHz) facility that could NEVER benefit from a tuned antenna on a vehicle. Just too long. So these antennas tend to be like those used on another low frequency (550 to 1700 KHz) system, AM entertainment radio. The "coaxial" cable is really a very low capacitance, shielded cable designed to minimially load a short, e-field antenna that delivers a relatively weak signal due to it's Lilliputian dimensions. Certainly you can adjust the length of the LORAN antenna to make it resonant at VHF comm frequencies but the coaxial cable associated with the antenna may very well be the low-capacity wire I described. My sense is that you'll spend so much time modifying the antenna and then proving that you did a good thing that you're $time$ ahead just to put a real VHF antenna in from the get-go. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 12, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
>> >On B & C Diode Installation sheet they state that "Heatsink must >> dissipate 0.6 X Amps = Watts. Example For 20 Amp Essential Bus, 0.6 X 20 >> = 12 Watt Heatsink". > >In my experience, I have never come across a 12W heatsink. Nor a 1W or >1000W heatsink. > >A heatsink is chosen appropriate to the temperature rise above ambient the >casing of the device can tolerate, or what the spec-sheet says. A single >machined-bolt head can dissipate 12W without any additional cooling, >however only when it reaches 200 degrees C (thumbsuck). If you can only >tolerate a 1degC increase in temperature, the heatsink required to >dissipate 12W will be the size of a large desk. > >So, a specsheet specifies the heatsinking requirements in [degrees above >ambient]/[Watt], or specifies the maximum allowable temperature. So >consider an ambient of 23degC, a maximum of 100degC, and we have >calculated that the device will need to dissipate 10W. That gives us a >requirement for a 7.7deg/Watt heatsink, which can be ordered accordingly. > >I understand the calculations relating to dissipation of heat, and IIRC a >Schottky diode, with a forward bias voltage of 0.2V rather than the >0.6~0.7V of a regular diode, dissipates 1/3 the energy for a given >current. However, there are always other considerations that have not been >touched in this discussion (such as thermal robustness, vibration >tolerance, ease of mounting), some of which are the same for both Schottky >diodes and for normal ones, and others which will draw very clear lines in >the sand precluding one or both from certain applications. Very good! You have nailed the physics of heat-sink sizing. Any size heatsink will dissipate the energies of ANY size heat source . . . the question to be asked and answered is "hot hot does it get" over and above ambient while being stoked at that energy level -AND- environmental temperature. B&C's advice was ill worded but I don't work for them any more. At the same time, I was hoping someone to rise to the task of illuminating the physics of the matter. As I write these words, there's a Schottky device in the chamber getting it's thermal portrait taken on the same heatsink that gave us a portrait of a common power rectifier earlier this week. I'll have comparable DATA to share in the not too distant future. My hat's off to you sir. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 12, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
> >Eric, > >Am loath to get between you and Bob when discussing electrons but don't >understand what you said about bridge diode heat dissipation. If one >diode is running 20 amps with a forward voltage of 0.6 then it generates >0.6 x 20 = 12 watts of heat. >If two diodes in parallel are carrying the same 20 amps then the current >is split between the two diodes, with each having more or less half the >load with a total of 20 amps between them. So each diode is generating >about half of 12 watts with a total generation of still only 12 watts not 24. > >What am I missing? You'll never be 'stuck' between us my friend. Your question is very much on point because until a posting pointed out a little detail about "thermal resistance" ratings of heat dissipation systems, there was no way that anyone should be expected understand what was correct and/or incorrect about any of the advice. Know that a Bob's Shop Notes is being crafted with real data that will make the physics clear and give you the tools with which to make a design decision about your system. There is nothing inherently evil or good about either device. Both technologies have and are producing satisfactory performance when used in a manner that does not violate their performance envelopes. The smoke and mirrors will be dealt with. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 12, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Problem with Turbo CAD
> >Bob, > >I bought one of the "cheap" copies of Turbo CAD 10.2 and it opens the Zxx >files just fine. Problem is, I can't seem to find any of the tutorials on >their web site. I suspect they pull them after some number of newer >versions are released. I'm sure a policy designed to sell more upgrades. > >I recently took a little intro CAD course at the local junior college but >they were using AutoCAD 2008. Little similarity I am afraid (no command >line in TC) so was looking for some way to learn TC without printing out the >400 plus page pdf document on the CDROM. > >Amy suggestions on learning TC 10.2 other than to just tough it out? > >At any rate, thanks for all the wonderful information and drawings. >Couldn't do this wiring thing without it. Go to a Borders or similar bookstore and look through the technical how-to books. It will be a "Turbo-CAD for Dummies" by a third party author. Then search for instructions on the use of these commands: AR, *ARRAY B, *BLOCK WB, *WRITEBLOCK BR, *BREAK CI, *CIRCLE C, *CHANGE CH, *CHAMFER CO, *COPY D, *DIMSTYLE DI, *DIST DO, *DONUT DT, *DTEXT E, *ERASE ED, *DDEDIT EL, *ELLIPSE XT, *EXTEND EXIT, *QUIT F, *FILLET H, *HATCH I, *INSERT IP, *ISOPLANE L, *LINE LA, *LAYER LI, *LIST LT, *LINETYPE M, *MOVE MI, *MIRROR OF, *OFFSET OS, *OSNAP P, *PAN PE, *PEDIT PL, *PLINE PG, *POLYGON P, *PAN R, *REDRAW RG, *REGEN RT, *RECTANGLE REN *RENAME RO, *ROTATE S, *STRETCH SC, *SCALE SCR, *SCRIPT T, *TRIM V, *VIEW XP, *EXPLODE Z, *ZOOM This is a list of my one and two-stroke command contractions for AutoCAD. This list covers 95% of everything I ask AutoCAD to do in my almost daily use for 20+ years. AutoCAD (and TurboCAD) will do MUCH more but these activities let me produce all of the illustrations for the 'Connection (and for my clients). Get up to speed on the same functions in TurboCAD and you can do just about everything I do. Some TurboCAD packages come with tutorials. See: http://www.cadandgraphics.com/tcdlx15.html?gclid=CP6Bm7iI8JMCFQabnAodTgNIWQ Here are some turbocad tutorials. Perhaps not "up to date" with your version but the list I gave you above is the most rudimenatry of CAD functions . . . probably good for any version mix of books and software. http://tinyurl.com/4lssx3 http://tinyurl.com/3ueqet Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 12, 2008
Subject: Re: Bridge Diodes use
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
One final thought about this.. If we keep our E-buses on a diet, the Vf will be lower, and the heat loss through whatever diode you choose will be less. These obese E-buses are killing us!! Hah. :) Matt- > > > >> I think this is the point that nobody was making.. Vf is not the knee >> voltage. Bob White sent me a link to a Fairchild datasheet that showed >> the I-V curve for one of their devices. Forward biasing conduction got >> going around 0.6V - 0.7V, but at the rated current the voltage drop was >> up around 1.0V - 1.1V. Eric, had you mentioned this early in the >> discussion, I think we could have avoided a bunch of this churning... >> http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/1N/1N4007.pdf >> I still haven't seen where B&C stated that the voltage drop would be >> half >> by running in parallel.. Certainly the voltage drop is reduced by >> running >> the diode lower on the I-V curve for a given buss current.. But not by >> half obviously. Maybe an estimate would be halfway between the published >> Vf and the knee voltage. >> Regards, Matt > > > Matt, et al. > > See: http://www.bandc.biz/Diode_Installation.pdf > > I don't claim that B & C ever stated that diodes' Vf could be summed like > parallel mosfets (etc.). But I saw the 0.6 Vf on their schematic as a very > suspicious indicator that somebody thought so, and that this should be > attended to. > > Yes, Matt, maybe I should have clarified some points earlier. But it was > 100 degrees yesterday, fer chis'sakes. Thanks for your sage input. > (Ahem...which you should have said earlier....) > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187390#187390 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joe" <fran5sew(at)banyanol.com>
Subject: Re: Boost pumps
Date: Jun 12, 2008
Jonsey, How many fuel pumps do you have and where are they located? Are there two batteries with alternate feed paths to the fuel pump(s)? Is there an engine driven fuel pump? Or is it gravity fed with an electric boost pump? Joe G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com>
Subject: DB25 tap adapter
Date: Jun 12, 2008
All, I had the need to create a simple Tap for a DB25 connector. I decided to try out a new board house and have lots available. These make a great way to Y into anything that uses a DB25 connector. E.g.GPS, or other signals. They are very simple to use, you just unconnect your existing db25 and plug this in-between. Screws and nuts can be picked up easily at Frys or RS. I will supply them with connectors - either 2 males, 2 females or 1 of each - your choice. The board presses between the solder cups and then you solder the connectors to the little board. The board has a tap point for each pin number and it's only .5 inches wide. The entire connector is only 1.5" wide when assembled. The via's will take up to 20ga wire and should support anything that we might need. I'll sell these for $5 each or $8 for a pair (2 full sets) + $2 S/H (usps) to anywhere in the US (international if needed will be actual postage or a negotiated rate). If interested, drop me a note with qty, gender, and I'll provide paypal information for purchase and get them shipped right out. I've attached pictures for your reference, if those don't go thru, you can see them here. http://www.highrf.com/Rockets/db25/DSCN2109_edited-2.jpg http://www.highrf.com/Rockets/db25/DSCN2111_edited-2.jpg http://www.highrf.com/Rockets/db25/DSCN2114_edited-1.jpg my email is adamson (underscore) alan at hotmail dot com As a side note, I'm tempted to do the same for db9 and db15 connectors... we'll see, I suppose if there is enough demand, I could do the big db connectors too (37 pin is it?). Alan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Loran to VHF
Date: Jun 12, 2008
Thanks Bob, I was considering shortening (tuning) a used Loran antenna for use with a VHF aircraft radio as a base station for a local airshow coming up. The regular 50 ohm coax would be used to feed it. Bevan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 3:35 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Loran to VHF --> >--> > > >Bob, > >Can a Loran antenna (CI 121 SP) be converted/trimmed into a VHF Comm. >antenna? > >Thanks Probably not. LORAN is a low frequency (100 KHz) facility that could NEVER benefit from a tuned antenna on a vehicle. Just too long. So these antennas tend to be like those used on another low frequency (550 to 1700 KHz) system, AM entertainment radio. The "coaxial" cable is really a very low capacitance, shielded cable designed to minimially load a short, e-field antenna that delivers a relatively weak signal due to it's Lilliputian dimensions. Certainly you can adjust the length of the LORAN antenna to make it resonant at VHF comm frequencies but the coaxial cable associated with the antenna may very well be the low-capacity wire I described. My sense is that you'll spend so much time modifying the antenna and then proving that you did a good thing that you're $time$ ahead just to put a real VHF antenna in from the get-go. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Jones" <djones(at)northboone.net>
Subject: Re: Boost pumps
Date: Jun 12, 2008
One electric backup pump, one battery with one feed. Pump on pump off no solenoid. Jonsey ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 8:17 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Boost pumps Jonsey, How many fuel pumps do you have and where are they located? Are there two batteries with alternate feed paths to the fuel pump(s)? Is there an engine driven fuel pump? Or is it gravity fed with an electric boost pump? Joe G. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joe" <fran5sew(at)banyanol.com>
Subject: Re: Boost pumps
Date: Jun 13, 2008
Jonsey, You can switch either the hot wire or the grounded wire. The fuel pump doesn't care. One method might have an advantage over the other as far as the length of the wires (weight) goes, and thus the length of hot wire exposed to possible short circuits. As long as the hot wire is protected by a fuse and is protected against mechanical damage, it will not matter much how the fuel pump is switched. Joe G. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 13, 2008
From: "Robert Feldtman" <bobf(at)feldtman.com>
Subject: Re: Loran to VHF
the LORAN antenna won't work. put "dipole calculator" in google and you will get several automatic calculators for figuring dipole length. put in your frequency and it will give you dipole length - probably about 40 inches or so, take a piece of wire that length, cut in half, solder one end to center conductor and the other end to the shield of rg-58U and you have an antenna. go to RST and they have the formula, they also sell toroids, you could slip on over the coax and that will act like a balun - would take 10 mins to make... mount it "vertical" for vertical polarization - although at an airshow it won't matter. bobf W5RF glastar On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 9:38 PM, B Tomm wrote: > > Thanks Bob, > > I was considering shortening (tuning) a used Loran antenna for use with a > VHF aircraft radio as a base station for a local airshow coming up. The > regular 50 ohm coax would be used to feed it. > > Bevan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert > L. > Nuckolls, III > Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 3:35 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Loran to VHF > > --> > > >--> > > > > > >Bob, > > > >Can a Loran antenna (CI 121 SP) be converted/trimmed into a VHF Comm. > >antenna? > > > >Thanks > > Probably not. LORAN is a low frequency (100 KHz) facility > that could NEVER benefit from a tuned antenna on a vehicle. Just > too long. So these antennas tend to be like those used > on another low frequency (550 to 1700 KHz) system, AM > entertainment radio. The "coaxial" cable is really a very > low capacitance, shielded cable designed to minimially > load a short, e-field antenna that delivers a relatively > weak signal due to it's Lilliputian dimensions. > > Certainly you can adjust the length of the LORAN antenna > to make it resonant at VHF comm frequencies but the > coaxial cable associated with the antenna may very well > be the low-capacity wire I described. My sense is that you'll > spend so much time modifying the antenna and then proving > that you did a good thing that you're $time$ ahead just > to put a real VHF antenna in from the get-go. > > Bob . . . > > > ----------------------------------------) > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > ---------------------------------------- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Jones" <djones(at)northboone.net>
Subject: Re: Boost pumps
Date: Jun 13, 2008
Thanks Joe I did find that with the smoke pump it took less wire and the hot wire is considerably shorter. I will look at this situation knowing either way would work. Jonsey ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 7:13 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Boost pumps Jonsey, You can switch either the hot wire or the grounded wire. The fuel pump doesn't care. One method might have an advantage over the other as far as the length of the wires (weight) goes, and thus the length of hot wire exposed to possible short circuits. As long as the hot wire is protected by a fuse and is protected against mechanical damage, it will not matter much how the fuel pump is switched. Joe G. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 13, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Loran to VHF
> >Thanks Bob, > >I was considering shortening (tuning) a used Loran antenna for use with a >VHF aircraft radio as a base station for a local airshow coming up. The >regular 50 ohm coax would be used to feed it. > >Bevan That will probably work just fine. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 13, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: DB25 tap adapter
>All, > >I had the need to create a simple Tap for a DB25 connector. I decided to >try out a new board house and have lots available. These make a great way >to Y into anything that uses a DB25 connector. E.g.GPS, or other >signals. They are very simple to use, you just unconnect your existing >db25 and plug this in-between. Screws and nuts can be picked up easily at >Frys or RS. > >I will supply them with connectors - either 2 males, 2 females or 1 of >each - your choice. The board presses between the solder cups and then >you solder the connectors to the little board. The board has a tap point >for each pin number and it's only .5 inches wide. The entire connector is >only 1.5" wide when assembled. The via's will take up to 20ga wire and >should support anything that we might need. > >I'll sell these for $5 each or $8 for a pair (2 full sets) + $2 S/H (usps) >to anywhere in the US (international if needed will be actual postage or a >negotiated rate). > >If interested, drop me a note with qty, gender, and I'll provide paypal >information for purchase and get them shipped right out. > >I've attached pictures for your reference, if those don't go thru, you can >see them here. > ><http://www.highrf.com/Rockets/db25/DSCN2109_edited-2.jpg>http://www.highrf.com/Rockets/db25/DSCN2109_edited-2.jpg >http://www.highrf.com/Rockets/db25/DSCN2111_edited-2.jpg ><http://www.highrf.com/Rockets/db25/DSCN2114_edited-1.jpg>http://www.highrf.com/Rockets/db25/DSCN2114_edited-1.jpg > >my email is adamson (underscore) alan at hotmail dot com > >As a side note, I'm tempted to do the same for db9 and db15 connectors... >we'll see, I suppose if there is enough demand, I could do the big db >connectors too (37 pin is it?). Yes, 37 pins is the next size up. Good lick on these sir. I've used this technique many times over the years with good success. I've also done versions where the intermediate board mounted another d-sub connector (with pc pins) and versions where the tap connector was a mass-terminated ribbon cable header. This is a well tried and proven technique. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Z13-8b Brown Out Relay Question ?
Date: Jun 13, 2008
Bob, I am having a little trouble understanding the charging circuit for the 7ah battery in Z13-8b. What I see is that the normal E-Bus Alt Feed path is in place to activate the Aux Bat if needed to the Endurance bus. The Brown-Out Battery Relay is normally energized by the starter circuit which disconnects the Aux Bat while starting but leaves it in the circuit for normal charging at all other times. What I don't understand is why you would use a S701-4 relay instead of a simple D25 steering diode which has no moving parts? Isn't this the same thing we are doing with the diode between the E-Bus and the Main Bus (allowing a one way current flow)? Is there some advantage in using the relay over the diode in this "brown-out battery relay" position? http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z13-8B(BrownOutBatte ry).pdf Thanks Bill S 7a finishing Z13/8/32/35 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 14, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Z13-8b Brown Out Relay Question ?
>Bob, I am having a little trouble understanding the charging circuit for >the 7ah battery in Z13-8b. What I see is that the normal E-Bus Alt Feed >path is in place to activate the Aux Bat if needed to the Endurance >bus. The Brown-Out Battery Relay is normally energized by the starter >circuit which disconnects the Aux Bat while starting but leaves it in the >circuit for normal charging at all other times. > >What I don't understand is why you would use a S701-4 relay instead of a >simple D25 steering diode which has no moving parts? Isn't this the same >thing we are doing with the diode between the E-Bus and the Main Bus >(allowing a one way current flow)? Is there some advantage in using the >relay over the diode in this "brown-out battery relay" position? > ><http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z13-8B(BrownOutBattery).pdf>http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z13-8B(BrownOutBattery).pdf > The relay has essentially zero voltage drop across it. The silicon rectifier has about .8 volts you could use a Schottky diode for about 0.5 volts depending on your e-bus loads. The design rationale is that the brown-out support battery get the recharging benefit from full bus voltage for normal operations. On the other hand, if you're not counting on the brown-out support battery as part of the endurance capacity, perhaps allowing the brown-out battery to live in the airplane at reduced capacity fits your design goals. I have it on my list of things to do in the lab to measure the difference in state of charge for small SVLA batteries when the recharge levels are 0.5 and 0.8 volts below the main bus. In any case, I'm sure it's not a really big deal if you'd like to substitute a diode, particularly a Schottky device for the relay. The reason I suggested the relay was because I could not quantify the difference in state of charge based on good data. The "easy" way out was to suggest a switching device that did not put the battery's state of charge in question. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Creation Of Wiring Diagram
From: "az_gila" <gilalex(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Jun 14, 2008
I'm presently creating a set of symbols for Turbocad. One secret to easy aircraft schematics is the use of good symbols and an appropriate grid system. If the two are set up correctly, then everything literally "snaps into place". I started with Bob N. schematics, but when they converted to TurboCad all (if any) grid information was lost. I'm making a Z-11 copy with these symbols for another RV-7A builder, and will publish them when done (a week or so). Look for them on VAF. gil A - just completed 18 pages for my simple RV-6A - Dynon 180, GX-65 GPS/com and KY-97A com. PS for the $$, the old versions of TurboCad are great value. $15 or so on e-bay for a legal copy of a previous version. larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote: > Hi Dave, > I've found TurboCAD very nice for doing electrical plans and 3D drawings > as well. It's a full featured program > that's reasonable to buy. After a life with AutoCAD and ProE, it's a > better personal solution for the individual designer. > These drawings were done in version 10, but they've been maintained thru > version 15. > http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/primary-wiring.gif > http://www.macsmachine.com/images/largeassembly2/full/eltdwg.gif > Awesome program easy to learn............ > > Larry McFarland at www.macsmachine.com > > > Dave VanLanen wrote: > > > > > For builders that are creating a wiring diagram, what are you using to > > create it? Are you creating with pencil and paper, or have you found > > any way to computerize it? Is a tool such as TurboCAD capable of > > creating a large full-aircraft drawing that can then be printed out? > > > > Dave > > > > * > > * > > > > > Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187890#187890 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 14, 2008
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon(at)CRUZCOM.COM>
Subject: aux battery current
I'm pondering sizing of the wire from a small AUX BAT to the battery bus. The small AUX BAT would only be intended to extend battery life on the E-bus, and/or to add juice for a few things on the main bus (landing lights, etc.) For example, when a low voltage condition occurs (alternator failure) and the AUTO mode of the AUX BAT mgmt. module turns the AUX BAT relay OFF, how much current flow can be expected from a small AUX BAT to the battery bus if/when the AUX BAT relay is manually switched ON later in the flight? The answer probably depends on the state of charge of the main battery at the time, but... is it possible to estimate a range of current that could be expected out of the AUX BAT as the two batteries are switched into parallel? Would any surge be sufficiently short term that a 10 or 12 AWG would suffice? Ron ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 14, 2008
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon(at)CRUZCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: aux battery current
For example, if when the AUX BAT is turned ON there's a 1 volt differential between AUX BAT and battery bus, would the initial current flow from AUX BAT to the battery bus be a function of the voltage differential and the internal resistance of the main battery, plus the current load of whatever devices were in use? Ron On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 12:20 PM, Ron Shannon wrote: > I'm pondering sizing of the wire from a small AUX BAT to the battery bus. > The small AUX BAT would only be intended to extend battery life on the > E-bus, and/or to add juice for a few things on the main bus (landing lights, > etc.) For example, when a low voltage condition occurs (alternator failure) > and the AUTO mode of the AUX BAT mgmt. module turns the AUX BAT relay OFF, > how much current flow can be expected from a small AUX BAT to the battery > bus if/when the AUX BAT relay is manually switched ON later in the flight? > > The answer probably depends on the state of charge of the main battery at > the time, but... is it possible to estimate a range of current that could be > expected out of the AUX BAT as the two batteries are switched into parallel? > Would any surge be sufficiently short term that a 10 or 12 AWG would > suffice? > > Ron > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard T. Schaefer" <schaefer@rts-services.com>
Subject: Ground power for dual battery dual buss Z-14
Date: Jun 14, 2008
I would power the external ground relay from the external power. Use a diode to make sure that the polarity from the external power is correct before it close the external power to your battery. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 7:39 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ground power for dual battery dual buss Z-14 I would like to install a ground power outlet/jack on my airplane. I have a copy of Bob's article from the website. I have a dual battery, dual buss (Z14) system installed as close as I could to Bob's diagram. Is there anything unique that I should do when installing the above? I suppose that the most likely need/use for this would be in the event that with the plane away from home base,one or both electric systems were left on after engine shutdown, and both batteries drained to the point where they would not crank the engine. 1. If the ground power was only installed to connect to one (the primary) battery is there any consideration that needs to be taken to protect/isolate the other battery during a start using ground power. (The Z14 momentarily couples both elec systems together during start). 2. With only a single ground power jack is there any 'reasonable' way to 'charge' both batteries through this jack? Exposing my lack of electrical confidence/understanding. Deems Davis ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 14, 2008
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon(at)CRUZCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Ground power for dual battery dual buss Z-14
I agree about powering GRND PWR relay from ground power -- there may not be any internal battery power left to turn it ON when you need it most. However, I added a small twist. The GRND PWR switch is on a right side panel that's angled back so it's visible if the pilot looks at it, but not in the normal viewing direction, and a stretch to reach from the left seat, so it could easily be forgotten and left ON when it shouldn't be. The first pole of a DPST switch controls the GRND PWR relay from ground power. However, to alert whenever the switch is ON, the second pole of the switch controls an LED over the switch that is powered from the battery bus. The LED provides an eye catching positive indication, highly visible from the left side, that the GRND PWR switch has been left ON, whether live ground power is connected or not. The switch also has a hinged guard. Overkill perhaps, but... even with polarity, fuse and over-voltage protection on the ground power circuit, I don't want to forget to turn it OFF when I leave the plane (or start to taxi) if it's not supposed to be ON. Of course, I'll probably forget it anyway. :-) Ron On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 3:32 PM, Richard T. Schaefer < schaefer@rts-services.com> wrote: > schaefer@rts-services.com> > > I would power the external ground relay from the external power. > Use a diode to make sure that the polarity from the external power > is correct before it close the external power to your battery. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z13-8b Brown Out Relay Question ?
From: "user9253" <fran5sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Jun 14, 2008
Bill S Another advantage of using a relay is that the power can be interrupted close to the source, a nice feature to have in case of smoke in the cockpit. One could think of the relay as a mini battery contactor. Only a small size wire is required between the relay coil and cockpit switch. Also, a diode would keep the E-Bus always hot. With a diode, each load on the E-Bus would have to be shut off individually at the end of the flight to prevent the batteries from running down. Joe Gores -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187924#187924 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Z13-8b Brown Out Relay Question ?
Date: Jun 14, 2008
Thanks Bob, I have the diode on a fused circuit going to the main bus so that it charges when the master is on but doesn't drain if it's off. Didn't consider the reduced voltage through the diode as being insufficient to keep the smaller battery "fully" charged. I do get a .6 volt drop across the D25. Thanks for posting the diagram, made me think about it again. Thanks Bill S 7a finishing -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2008 10:44 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z13-8b Brown Out Relay Question ? --> >Bob, I am having a little trouble understanding the charging circuit >for the 7ah battery in Z13-8b. What I see is that the normal E-Bus Alt >Feed path is in place to activate the Aux Bat if needed to the >Endurance bus. The Brown-Out Battery Relay is normally energized by >the starter circuit which disconnects the Aux Bat while starting but >leaves it in the circuit for normal charging at all other times. > >What I don't understand is why you would use a S701-4 relay instead of >a simple D25 steering diode which has no moving parts? Isn't this the >same thing we are doing with the diode between the E-Bus and the Main >Bus (allowing a one way current flow)? Is there some advantage in >using the relay over the diode in this "brown-out battery relay" position? > ><http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z13-8B(BrownOu >tBattery).pdf>http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z >13-8B(BrownOutBattery).pdf > The relay has essentially zero voltage drop across it. The silicon rectifier has about .8 volts you could use a Schottky diode for about 0.5 volts depending on your e-bus loads. The design rationale is that the brown-out support battery get the recharging benefit from full bus voltage for normal operations. On the other hand, if you're not counting on the brown-out support battery as part of the endurance capacity, perhaps allowing the brown-out battery to live in the airplane at reduced capacity fits your design goals. I have it on my list of things to do in the lab to measure the difference in state of charge for small SVLA batteries when the recharge levels are 0.5 and 0.8 volts below the main bus. In any case, I'm sure it's not a really big deal if you'd like to substitute a diode, particularly a Schottky device for the relay. The reason I suggested the relay was because I could not quantify the difference in state of charge based on good data. The "easy" way out was to suggest a switching device that did not put the battery's state of charge in question. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z13-8b Brown Out Relay Question ?
From: "user9253" <fran5sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Jun 15, 2008
Bill, Oops, my mistake. I thought you were talking about the Alternate Feed Relay and my first reply was in reference to that. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=187958#187958 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 15, 2008
From: "Sam Hoskins" <sam.hoskins(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Two Fuel pumps Z-19RB
All, I am looking for a better way to handle switching for my fuel injection fuel pumps. I have uploaded the diagram here: http://www.mistakeproofing.net/transfer/N202SH_POWER_DISTRIBUTION_06.pdf Look in the lower portion of the drawing. I am using the RWS fuel/ignition controller which has the ability to receive power from two sources, which should fit well with Z-19. However, I have added a backup fuel pump. I have a selector switch that determines which system supplies the fuel pumps. Then, I have added a switch that will allow me to run either pump, but not both. The problem is, I have to feed each pump through two switches, doubling my chance of failure. Any suggestions? Thanks. Sam Hoskins Quickie Q-200 EFI ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 15, 2008
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Two Fuel pumps Z-19RB
Sam I run an oem subaru EFI as my primary. I am not concerned if I happen to have both fuel pumps on together. With both of my pumps on, the pressure goes up 2 or 3 psi. The fuel flow change is minuscule (proportional to the square root of the fuel pressure). Nominal is around 36 psi above MAP. Actually my engine continues to run if I double the normal fuel flow. My hazy memory is that the oem pumps draw about 4 amps or so each so that is not a big deal either. I chose to not give either computer the ability to control the second fuel pump. Some guys like to retain auto shutdown of both pumps in the event of a crash but my second pump is not normally on in flight. I preferred to have no switches or wiring that is common to both pumps which also simplifies things. Ken Sam Hoskins wrote: > All, > > I am looking for a better way to handle switching for my fuel injection > fuel pumps. I have uploaded the diagram here: > http://www.mistakeproofing.net/transfer/N202SH_POWER_DISTRIBUTION_06.pdf > Look in the lower portion of the drawing. > I am using the RWS fuel/ignition controller which has the ability to > receive power from two sources, which should fit well with Z-19. > However, I have added a backup fuel pump. I have a selector switch that > determines which system supplies the fuel pumps. Then, I have added a > switch that will allow me to run either pump, but not both. > > The problem is, I have to feed each pump through two switches, doubling > my chance of failure. > > Any suggestions? > > Thanks. > > Sam Hoskins > Quickie Q-200 EFI ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 15, 2008
From: "Jon Hults" <jkhults(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Speed Brake Switch
Bob & All, I have a 4-way momentary "China hat" switch on my Infinity Aerospace throttle handle that I want to use for flaps (up & down) and speed brakes (fwd & aft). The Precise Flight speed brakes require an ON-OFF switch because once power is removed, they will close. Let me preface my question with the fact the electricity is "not my area"! My question is how do I use the MOM switch to provide continuous voltage to the speed brake asymmetry module to keep them extended? Does it require a relay or some other electrical equipment? Or should I just use an ON-OFF switch somewhere else? Thanks, Jon Hults Lancair Legacy ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeffrey W. Skiba" <jskiba(at)icosa.net>
Subject: Speed Brake Switch
Date: Jun 15, 2008
How about a Flip Flop Circuit? Something like: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/page9.htm see the section for: "CMOS Toggle Flip Flop Using Push Button" You would have to build the circuit. Hoe that helps Jeff. Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 1:00 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Speed Brake Switch Bob & All, I have a 4-way momentary "China hat" switch on my Infinity Aerospace throttle handle that I want to use for flaps (up & down) and speed brakes (fwd & aft). The Precise Flight speed brakes require an ON-OFF switch because once power is removed, they will close. Let me preface my question with the fact the electricity is "not my area"! My question is how do I use the MOM switch to provide continuous voltage to the speed brake asymmetry module to keep them extended? Does it require a relay or some other electrical equipment? Or should I just use an ON-OFF switch somewhere else? Thanks, Jon Hults Lancair Legacy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 15, 2008
From: "Robert Feldtman" <bobf(at)feldtman.com>
Subject: Re: Speed Brake Switch
aare the speed brakes on the wings? or on the fuselage (like a cozy or Long EZ)? If on the wings, you'd need to have huge concern about potential assymetric drag if one side has voltage failure and the other doesn't, could flip inverted if the drag was serious enough on the wing. if it is non-asymmetric, then disregard the above safety concern.. bobf On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Jon Hults wrote: > Bob & All, > > I have a 4-way momentary "China hat" switch on my Infinity Aerospace > throttle handle that I want to use for flaps (up & down) and speed brakes > (fwd & aft). The Precise Flight speed brakes require an ON-OFF switch > because once power is removed, they will close. > > Let me preface my question with the fact the electricity is "not my area"! > My question is how do I use the MOM switch to provide continuous voltage to > the speed brake asymmetry module to keep them extended? Does it require a > relay or some other electrical equipment? Or should I just use an ON-OFF > switch somewhere else? > > Thanks, > Jon Hults > Lancair Legacy > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert McCallum" <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Speed Brake Switch
Date: Jun 15, 2008
John; Assuming you wish to use one momentary switch to turn "ON" the circuit and another (opposite side of the "China Hat") to turn "OFF" the circuit, two SPDT relays will do the trick. See attached word document. Please excuse the rudimentary sketch. The quadruple ovals represent the relay coils. The diode is to protect the switch from the load current. (assuming the list accepts the attachment) Bob McC ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon Hults To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 1:59 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Speed Brake Switch Bob & All, I have a 4-way momentary "China hat" switch on my Infinity Aerospace throttle handle that I want to use for flaps (up & down) and speed brakes (fwd & aft). The Precise Flight speed brakes require an ON-OFF switch because once power is removed, they will close. Let me preface my question with the fact the electricity is "not my area"! My question is how do I use the MOM switch to provide continuous voltage to the speed brake asymmetry module to keep them extended? Does it require a relay or some other electrical equipment? Or should I just use an ON-OFF switch somewhere else? Thanks, Jon Hults Lancair Legacy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 2008
From: gandjpappy <gandjpappy(at)aol.com>
Subject: Garmin Experimental Only Radios
I was wondering what the difference between the radios they sell as Experimental only and the ones that they sell for Certified aircraft? Is there an easy way to tell them apart? I am looking to get either a 430 or a 530 and have been looking at used units but don't want to buy one of the experimental ones if they are not legal to install. Thanks in advance, Greg ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 2008
From: "Sam Hoskins" <sam.hoskins(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Garmin Experimental Only Radios
If you are not sure if it is legal to install, check with the A&P or repair station that is going to sign off the installation. Too often, an owner comes in with something that he/she has purchased and the installer has to jump through all sorts of hoops. Don't buy it unless they tell you they can sign it off. *Sam Hoskins Quickie Blog <http://www.samhoskins.blogspot.com/> Quickie Website <http://home.mchsi.com/%7Eshoskins/index.htm>* *On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 7:19 AM, gandjpappy wrote: * > > *I was wondering what the difference between the radios they sell as > Experimental only and the ones that they sell for Certified aircraft? Is > there an easy way to tell them apart? I am looking to get either a 430 or a > 530 and have been looking at used units but don't want to buy one of the > experimental ones if they are not legal to install.* > * * > *Thanks in advance,* > *Greg* > * > ------------------------------ > Get the Moviefone Toolbar<http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=aolcmp00050000000011>. > Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more!* > > * > > * > > * * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joe" <fran5sew(at)banyanol.com>
Subject: Re: Two Fuel pumps Z-19RB
Date: Jun 16, 2008
Sam, Why are you using a double pole switch for "System B Engine Secondary" ECU instead of a single pole switch? Suggestion for Ignition Coil +12V Supply: connect switch terminals 1 & 4 together and terminals 3 & 6 together for redundancy. Would it hurt anything to have two pumps running at once? It would greatly simplify the circuit to have one switch for each pump, with each switch having 3 positions: source A, OFF, source B. It would be up to the pilot to make sure that only one pump in turned on at a time. If you absolutely have to prevent both pumps from running at once, let me know and I will draw a circuit using either 4 switches or else 2 switches plus diodes. Joe ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 2008
From: "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson(at)pobox.com>
Subject: Switch dimentions
Hi Bob, I went to Carling's www site in search of mech drawaings for their S700 series switches and I couldn't find any. Would you by chance have a copy laying around? Or if not, would you mind jotting down the case dimensions of a S700-2 style switch? Also, do you have any recommendations on switch spacing? I'm using 1.25" and on the CAD drawing, they seem a little far apart. Thank you, /\/elson ~~ Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any spring. ~~ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 2008
From: "Sam Hoskins" <sam.hoskins(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Two Fuel pumps Z-19RB
I think it might be better to only have one fuel pump at a time, to prevent overloading the pressure regulator. I don't know how much flow the P.R. can handle, since I have not yet powered up the system. If the regulator can handle two pumps, then no problem. However, if it can't, then running two pumps may adversely affect the mixture. I recently saw an accident report involving a Lancair IV where it is speculated that two pumps were running at once and the engine lost power because of an excessively rich condition. Anyway, that's my reasoning. *Sam Hoskins Quickie Blog <http://www.samhoskins.blogspot.com/> Quickie Website <http://home.mchsi.com/%7Eshoskins/index.htm>* *On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 7:52 AM, Joe wrote: * > > *Sam,* > > * * > > *Why are you using a double pole switch for "System B Engine Secondary" ECU > instead of a single pole switch?* > > * * > > *Suggestion for Ignition Coil +12V Supply: connect switch terminals 1 & 4 > together and terminals 3 & 6 together for redundancy.* > > * * > > *Would it hurt anything to have two pumps running at once? It would > greatly simplify the circuit to have one switch for each pump, with each > switch having 3 positions: source A, OFF, source B. It would be up to the > pilot to make sure that only one pump in turned on at a time.* > > * * > > *If you absolutely have to prevent both pumps from running at once, let me > know and I will draw a circuit using either 4 switches or else 2 switches > plus diodes.* > > * * > * > > Joe > * > > * > > * > > * * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Switch dimentions
Date: Jun 16, 2008
About .8" is as close as you can get them. That is what mine are set at. Bill B -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David E. Nelson Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 8:59 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Switch dimentions --> Hi Bob, I went to Carling's www site in search of mech drawaings for their S700 series switches and I couldn't find any. Would you by chance have a copy laying around? Or if not, would you mind jotting down the case dimensions of a S700-2 style switch? Also, do you have any recommendations on switch spacing? I'm using 1.25" and on the CAD drawing, they seem a little far apart. Thank you, /\/elson ~~ Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any spring. ~~ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com>
Subject: Garmin Experimental Only Radios
Date: Jun 16, 2008
My understanding is that all Garmin units are for certified aircraft, but must be installed according to the installation manual and appropriate TSO's. Some Garmin dealers do sell units with a harness for experimental aircraft, which allows them to get around Garmin's requirements for their dealers to do the installation. But the radios themselves are exactly the same, and all are approved for certified aircraft. Thanks! Bill Denton bdenton(at)bdenton.com From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gandjpappy Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 7:19 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin Experimental Only Radios I was wondering what the difference between the radios they sell as Experimental only and the ones that they sell for Certified aircraft? Is there an easy way to tell them apart? I am looking to get either a 430 or a 530 and have been looking at used units but don't want to buy one of the experimental ones if they are not legal to install. Thanks in advance, Greg _____ Get <http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=aolcmp00050000000011> the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Johnson" <pinetownd(at)volcano.net>
Subject: Speedbrakes
Date: Jun 16, 2008
Hi Jon, I think the Precise Flight speedbrakes do best with an ON/ON switch. An ON/OFF switch works, because the controller will make the speedbrakes slam closed whenever power is removed, but they slam closed with a fair amount of force and I can't think that's good for the long term. An ON/ON switch allows them to be powered closed, which is a smooth, elegant, operation. By the way, someone mentioned the problem of asymmetric extension of the speedbrakes. The Precise Flight controller has sensors and logic circuits that make that unlikely. If it senses that one side is extended (or retracted) more than the other, for some minimum length of time, it automatically closes them both, using the "slam closed" method, which I think is driven by a strong spring. However, the Legacy is reported to be fully controllable with one fully extended and the other fully retracted. I'm sure you can use a "hat switch" to control them, possibly through relays, but I'd encourage you to make sure it's unlikely that you or a passenger could activate the switch by mistake. The speedbrakes are pretty effective and unplanned activation could be distracting for a couple of seconds while you were trying to figure out what the heck is going on. My switch is on the end of my left hand throttle, in a place I thought was immune to accidental activation. I inadvertently activated mine twice during my fly-off test phase, when I was learning how everything works. The airplane is fully controllable and it's really not an issue, but it can be a distraction. Speedbrakes are not required and they're expensive and heavy, but they are so cool. Good luck, Dennis Johnson Legacy, 135 hours ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike" <mlas(at)cox.net>
Subject: Speedbrakes
Date: Jun 16, 2008
I used a three position switch for the speed brakes on my Legacy. Center off, momentary on, switched on. That way you can have the best of both worlds. The one word of caution is to have a power switch separate from the control switch. Sometimes switches get hit on the stick unintentionally. You would not want the speed brakes to come out during take off and in my experience you wouldn=92t notice right away. Regards, Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dennis Johnson Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 6:48 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Speedbrakes Hi Jon, I think the Precise Flight speedbrakes do best with an ON/ON switch. An ON/OFF switch works, because the controller will make the speedbrakes slam closed whenever power is removed, but they slam closed with a fair amount of force and I can't think that's good for the long term. An ON/ON switch allows them to be powered closed, which is a smooth, elegant, operation. By the way, someone mentioned the problem of asymmetric extension of the speedbrakes. The Precise Flight controller has sensors and logic circuits that make that unlikely. If it senses that one side is extended (or retracted) more than the other, for some minimum length of time, it automatically closes them both, using the "slam closed" method, which I think is driven by a strong spring. However, the Legacy is reported to be fully controllable with one fully extended and the other fully retracted. I'm sure you can use a "hat switch" to control them, possibly through relays, but I'd encourage you to make sure it's unlikely that you or a passenger could activate the switch by mistake. The speedbrakes are pretty effective and unplanned activation could be distracting for a couple of seconds while you were trying to figure out what the heck is going on. My switch is on the end of my left hand throttle, in a place I thought was immune to accidental activation. I inadvertently activated mine twice during my fly-off test phase, when I was learning how everything works. The airplane is fully controllable and it's really not an issue, but it can be a distraction. Speedbrakes are not required and they're expensive and heavy, but they are so cool. Good luck, Dennis Johnson Legacy, 135 hours "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu tion 10/2/2007 11:10 AM 10/2/2007 11:10 AM ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 2008
Subject: Re: Two Fuel pumps Z-19RB
From: jon(at)finleyweb.net
=0ASam,=0A=0A =0A=0AI'm running the RWS system on my Subaru EJ-22 and run b oth pumps for takeoff, landing, and NOE missions (Nap-Of-the-Earth). I can 't even guess how your O-200, pumps, and regulator will react but mine all work very well together with about a 2-3 psi pressure rise when both are on . This makes no noticeable difference to the mixture.=0A=0A =0A=0AJon=0A =0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: "Sam Hoskins" <sam.hoskins(at)gmail.c om>=0ASent: Monday, June 16, 2008 9:13am=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronics. com=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Two Fuel pumps Z-19RB=0A=0AI think it might be better to only have one fuel pump at a time, to prevent overloadi ng the pressure regulator. I don't know how much flow the P.R. can handle, since I have not yet powered up the system. If the regulator can handle t wo pumps, then no problem. However, if it can't, then running two pumps ma y adversely affect the mixture. =0A=0AI recently saw an accident report inv olving a Lancair IV where it is speculated that two pumps were running at o nce and the engine lost power because of an excessively rich condition.=0A =0AAnyway, that's my reasoning.=0A=0ASam Hoskins=0A[http://www.samhoskins.b logspot.com/] Quickie Blog=0A[http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/index.htm] Qu ickie Website=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 7:52 AM, Joe wrote:=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ASam,=0A=0A =0A=0AWhy are you using a double pole switch for "System B Engine Secondary" ECU instead of a sin gle pole switch?=0A=0A =0A=0ASuggestion for Ignition Coil +12V Supply: conn ect switch terminals 1 & 4 together and terminals 3 & 6 together for redund ancy.=0A=0A =0A=0AWould it hurt anything to have two pumps running at once? It would greatly simplify the circuit to have one switch for each pump, w ith each switch having 3 positions: source A, OFF, source B. It would be u p to the pilot to make sure that only one pump in turned on at a time.=0A =0A =0A=0AIf you absolutely have to prevent both pumps from running at once , let me know and I will draw a circuit using either 4 switches or else 2 s =========================0A =0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 2008
Subject: Re: Two Fuel pumps Z-19RB
From: jon(at)finleyweb.net
=0AAlso, I run my primary ECU power and primary EFI pump from a single 'pri mary' switch (and a relay) which is on the battery bus. The aux EFI pump i s on it's own switch.=0A=0A =0A=0AJon=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0A From: "Sam Hoskins" <sam.hoskins(at)gmail.com>=0ASent: Monday, June 16, 2008 9 :13am=0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-Lis t: Two Fuel pumps Z-19RB=0A=0AI think it might be better to only have one f uel pump at a time, to prevent overloading the pressure regulator. I don't know how much flow the P.R. can handle, since I have not yet powered up th e system. If the regulator can handle two pumps, then no problem. However , if it can't, then running two pumps may adversely affect the mixture. =0A =0AI recently saw an accident report involving a Lancair IV where it is spe culated that two pumps were running at once and the engine lost power becau se of an excessively rich condition.=0A=0AAnyway, that's my reasoning.=0A =0ASam Hoskins=0A[http://www.samhoskins.blogspot.com/] Quickie Blog=0A[http ://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/index.htm] Quickie Website=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Mon, J un 16, 2008 at 7:52 AM, Joe wrote:=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0ASam,=0A=0A =0A=0AWhy are you using a double pole switch for "Syste m B Engine Secondary" ECU instead of a single pole switch?=0A=0A =0A=0ASug gestion for Ignition Coil +12V Supply: connect switch terminals 1 & 4 toget her and terminals 3 & 6 together for redundancy.=0A=0A =0A=0AWould it hurt anything to have two pumps running at once? It would greatly simplify the circuit to have one switch for each pump, with each switch having 3 positio ns: source A, OFF, source B. It would be up to the pilot to make sure that only one pump in turned on at a time.=0A=0A =0A=0AIf you absolutely have t o prevent both pumps from running at once, let me know and I will draw a ci rcuit using either 4 switches or else 2 switches plus diodes.=0A=0A =0A=0AJ =========================0A .matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List] http://www.matronics.com/Naviga -> [http://www.matronics.com/contribution] http://www.matronics.com/contrib ===============0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike" <mlas(at)cox.net>
Subject: Speed Brake Switch
Date: Jun 16, 2008
Jon, With the Precise Flight speed brakes you have two switches. The first is the main power switch that provides power to the controller. The second switch is the control switch which controls the operation of the speed brake. The first switch is used for removing power from the system altogether. When power is removed the speed brakes go into failsafe which is a hard retract. The control switch works through the computer controller and controls the rate of extension and retraction while providing asymmetry protection during operation. Look at the schematic provided and put together list a of questions from that. The wiring that Precise provides is not very clear. The units were original designed for an engineered installation on certified aircraft and the drawings have not been updated for the typical homebuilt installation. Here is the response from a post that I made down thread: I used a three position switch for the speed brakes on my Legacy. Center off, momentary on, switched on. That way you can have the best of both worlds. The one word of caution is to have a power switch separate from the control switch. Sometimes switches get hit on the stick unintentionally. You would not want the speed brakes to come out during take off and in my experience you wouldn=92t notice right away. Regards, Mike Larkin Legacy dude -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dennis Johnson Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 6:48 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Speedbrakes Hi Jon, I think the Precise Flight speedbrakes do best with an ON/ON switch. An ON/OFF switch works, because the controller will make the speedbrakes slam closed whenever power is removed, but they slam closed with a fair amount of force and I can't think that's good for the long term. An ON/ON switch allows them to be powered closed, which is a smooth, elegant, operation. By the way, someone mentioned the problem of asymmetric extension of the speedbrakes. The Precise Flight controller has sensors and logic circuits that make that unlikely. If it senses that one side is extended (or retracted) more than the other, for some minimum length of time, it automatically closes them both, using the "slam closed" method, which I think is driven by a strong spring. However, the Legacy is reported to be fully controllable with one fully extended and the other fully retracted. I'm sure you can use a "hat switch" to control them, possibly through relays, but I'd encourage you to make sure it's unlikely that you or a passenger could activate the switch by mistake. The speedbrakes are pretty effective and unplanned activation could be distracting for a couple of seconds while you were trying to figure out what the heck is going on. My switch is on the end of my left hand throttle, in a place I thought was immune to accidental activation. I inadvertently activated mine twice during my fly-off test phase, when I was learning how everything works. The airplane is fully controllable and it's really not an issue, but it can be a distraction. Speedbrakes are not required and they're expensive and heavy, but they are so cool. Good luck, Dennis Johnson Legacy, 135 hours -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Hults Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:00 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Speed Brake Switch Bob & All, I have a 4-way momentary "China hat" switch on my Infinity Aerospace throttle handle that I want to use for flaps (up & down) and speed brakes (fwd & aft). The Precise Flight speed brakes require an ON-OFF switch because once power is removed, they will close. Let me preface my question with the fact the electricity is "not my area"! My question is how do I use the MOM switch to provide continuous voltage to the speed brake asymmetry module to keep them extended? Does it require a relay or some other electrical equipment? Or should I just use an ON-OFF switch somewhere else? Thanks, Jon Hults Lancair Legacy "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu tion 10/2/2007 11:10 AM 10/2/2007 11:10 AM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 16, 2008
Subject: Re: Garmin Experimental Only Radios
Good Morning Sam, Way out of my area of expertise, but I think you will find that there is no difference at all. If you buy it for an experimental, you can install it yourself and still get a warranty. If it is installed in a certificated airplane, it must be installed by an Garmin approved radio shop to get the warranty. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 6/16/2008 7:51:29 A.M. Central Daylight Time, sam.hoskins(at)gmail.com writes: If you are not sure if it is legal to install, check with the A&P or repair station that is going to sign off the installation. Too often, an owner comes in with something that he/she has purchased and the installer has to jump through all sorts of hoops. Don't buy it unless they tell you they can sign it off. Sam Hoskins **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 2008
From: "Sam Hoskins" <sam.hoskins(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Garmin Experimental Only Radios
I should have prefaced it with - "if you are installing it in a certificated aircraft". Otherwise, you are correct. Sam *On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 10:19 AM, wrote: * > > * **Good Morning Sam,* > * * > *Way out of my area of expertise, but I think you will find that there is > no difference at all. * > * * > *If you buy it for an experimental, you can install it yourself and still > get a warranty. If it is installed in a certificated airplane, it must be > installed by an Garmin approved radio shop to get the warranty.* > * * > *Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > AKA > Bob Siegfried > Ancient Aviator > 628 West 86th Street > Downers Grove, IL 60516 > 630 985-8502 > Stearman N3977A > Brookeridge Air Park LL22** > ** * > *In a message dated 6/16/2008 7:51:29 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > sam.hoskins(at)gmail.com writes:* > > *If you are not sure if it is legal to install, check with the A&P or > repair station that is going to sign off the installation. Too often, an > owner comes in with something that he/she has purchased and the installer > has to jump through all sorts of hoops. > > Don't buy it unless they tell you they can sign it off. > > Sam Hoskins > * > > ** > * > > > ** > ------------------------------ > Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008<http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102> > .* > > * > > * > > * * ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Z-22 Power loss question
From: "discover" <923te(at)att.net>
Date: Jun 16, 2008
Considering using Z-22 for a Skytec PM starter circuit. Z-22 eliminates the jumper on the starter and makes the starter terminal hot with master on, running an additional line from the starter contactor to power up the solenoid. Usually, the battery cable runs to and then thru the starter contactor to the starter. I know Z-22 is primarily concerned with eliminating "Run On" Would it also provide more power for starting? That is would there be less power loss to make battery cable run 14' all the way to PM starter solenoid or run 11' to firewall mounted starter contactor then 3' to battery? Not running thru the contactor but just connected on the power side of the contactor. In other words is there appreciable loss thru 2 lugs joined thru a bolt on the contactor? Currently have 3' of 6 gauge from starter to starter contactor which is next to firewall mounted battery. Am moving battery aft and trying to decide whether to run the 2 gauge all the way to the starter or just run it to the starter contactor and keep the 6 gauge from the contactor to the starter. Hope this make sense... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188123#188123 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Speedy11(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 16, 2008
Subject: Re: Speed Brake Switch
John, If you contact JD at Inifinity Aerospace he can tell you how to do it. I think he has an optional switch you could install in place of the original coolie hat switch that will do what you want. Stan Sutterfield I have a 4-way momentary "China hat" switch on my Infinity Aerospace throttle handle that I want to use for flaps (up & down) and speed brakes (fwd & aft). The Precise Flight speed brakes require an ON-OFF switch because once power is removed, they will close. Let me preface my question with the fact the electricity is "not my area"! My question is how do I use the MOM switch to provide continuous voltage to the speed brake asymmetry module to keep them extended? Does it require a relay or some other electrical equipment? Or should I just use an ON-OFF switch somewhere else? Thanks, Jon Hults Lancair Legacy **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Switch dimensions
> > >About .8" is as close as you can get them. That is what mine are set at. > >Bill B > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David E. >Nelson >Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 8:59 AM >To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Switch dimentions > >--> > > >Hi Bob, > >I went to Carling's www site in search of mech drawaings for their S700 >series switches and I couldn't find any. Would you by chance have a copy >laying around? Or if not, would you mind jotting down the case dimensions >of a S700-2 style switch? > >Also, do you have any recommendations on switch spacing? I'm using 1.25" >and on the CAD drawing, they seem a little far apart. See http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/s700dwg.jpg In the exemplar layouts at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Switch_Panels/Switches.pdf and the drawing that generated the .pdf file at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Switch_Panels/spanel.dwg the switches are on .8" centers except where labeling nomenclature is needed between switches. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 2008
From: "Sam Hoskins" <shoskins(at)mchsi.com>
Subject: Re: Two Fuel pumps Z-19RB
Jon, What fuel pumps and fuel regulator are you using? I want to make sure we are comparing apples to apples. I have Walbro pumps and an Airmotive regulator. Sam On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 9:41 AM, wrote: > Sam, > > I'm running the RWS system on my Subaru EJ-22 and run both pumps for > takeoff, landing, and NOE missions (Nap-Of-the-Earth). I can't even guess > how your O-200, pumps, and regulator will react but mine all work very well > together with about a 2-3 psi pressure rise when both are on. This makes no > noticeable difference to the mixture. > > Jon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Sam Hoskins" <sam.hoskins(at)gmail.com> > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 9:13am > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Two Fuel pumps Z-19RB > > I think it might be better to only have one fuel pump at a time, to prevent > overloading the pressure regulator. I don't know how much flow the P.R. can > handle, since I have not yet powered up the system. If the regulator can > handle two pumps, then no problem. However, if it can't, then running two > pumps may adversely affect the mixture. > > I recently saw an accident report involving a Lancair IV where it is > speculated that two pumps were running at once and the engine lost power > because of an excessively rich condition. > > Anyway, that's my reasoning. > > *Sam Hoskins > Quickie Blog <http://www.samhoskins.blogspot.com/> > Quickie Website <http://home.mchsi.com/%7Eshoskins/index.htm>* > > *On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 7:52 AM, Joe wrote: > * >> >> *Sam,* >> >> * * >> >> *Why are you using a double pole switch for "System B Engine Secondary" ECU >> instead of a single pole switch?* >> >> * * >> >> *Suggestion for Ignition Coil +12V Supply: connect switch terminals 1 & 4 >> together and terminals 3 & 6 together for redundancy.* >> >> * * >> >> *Would it hurt anything to have two pumps running at once? It would >> greatly simplify the circuit to have one switch for each pump, with each >> switch having 3 positions: source A, OFF, source B. It would be up to >> the pilot to make sure that only one pump in turned on at a time.* >> >> * * >> >> *If you absolutely have to prevent both pumps from running at once, let >> me know and I will draw a circuit using either 4 switches or else 2 switches >> plus diodes.* >> >> * * >> * >> >> Joe >> * >> >> * >> >> * >> >> * > * > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?======================= > * > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 2008
From: "Sam Hoskins" <sam.hoskins(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Two Fuel pumps Z-19RB
Jon, What fuel pumps and fuel regulator are you using? I want to make sure we are comparing apples to apples. I have Walbro pumps and an Airmotive regulator. Sam On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 9:41 AM, wrote: > Sam, > > I'm running the RWS system on my Subaru EJ-22 and run both pumps for > takeoff, landing, and NOE missions (Nap-Of-the-Earth). I can't even guess > how your O-200, pumps, and regulator will react but mine all work very well > together with about a 2-3 psi pressure rise when both are on. This makes no > noticeable difference to the mixture. > > Jon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Sam Hoskins" <sam.hoskins(at)gmail.com> > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 9:13am > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Two Fuel pumps Z-19RB > > I think it might be better to only have one fuel pump at a time, to prevent > overloading the pressure regulator. I don't know how much flow the P.R. can > handle, since I have not yet powered up the system. If the regulator can > handle two pumps, then no problem. However, if it can't, then running two > pumps may adversely affect the mixture. > > I recently saw an accident report involving a Lancair IV where it is > speculated that two pumps were running at once and the engine lost power > because of an excessively rich condition. > > Anyway, that's my reasoning. > > *Sam Hoskins > Quickie Blog <http://www.samhoskins.blogspot.com/> > Quickie Website <http://home.mchsi.com/%7Eshoskins/index.htm>* > > *On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 7:52 AM, Joe wrote: > * >> >> *Sam,* >> >> * * >> >> *Why are you using a double pole switch for "System B Engine Secondary" ECU >> instead of a single pole switch?* >> >> * * >> >> *Suggestion for Ignition Coil +12V Supply: connect switch terminals 1 & 4 >> together and terminals 3 & 6 together for redundancy.* >> >> * * >> >> *Would it hurt anything to have two pumps running at once? It would >> greatly simplify the circuit to have one switch for each pump, with each >> switch having 3 positions: source A, OFF, source B. It would be up to >> the pilot to make sure that only one pump in turned on at a time.* >> >> * * >> >> *If you absolutely have to prevent both pumps from running at once, let >> me know and I will draw a circuit using either 4 switches or else 2 switches >> plus diodes.* >> >> * * >> * >> >> Joe >> * >> >> * >> >> * >> >> * > * > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?======================= > * > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net>
Subject: Two Fuel pumps Z-19RB
Date: Jun 16, 2008
Ya, definitely not the same setup that I have. I am using the stock 1990-1994 Subaru EJ-22 fuel pressure regulator and two pumps from the 1992 Subaru Loyale. I think it would be worth it to wire them up on the bench with a pressure regulator hooked up and run a test. We have such a large header tank that I don't think heat build up in the fuel is an issue but, as you said, the inability for the regulator to maintain the correct pressure is an issue. Jon -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 5:44 PM To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Two Fuel pumps Z-19RB Jon, What fuel pumps and fuel regulator are you using? I want to make sure we are comparing apples to apples. I have Walbro pumps and an Airmotive regulator. Sam On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 9:41 AM, wrote: Sam, I'm running the RWS system on my Subaru EJ-22 and run both pumps for takeoff, landing, and NOE missions (Nap-Of-the-Earth). I can't even guess how your O-200, pumps, and regulator will react but mine all work very well together with about a 2-3 psi pressure rise when both are on. This makes no noticeable difference to the mixture. Jon -----Original Message----- From: "Sam Hoskins" <sam.hoskins(at)gmail.com> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 9:13am To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Two Fuel pumps Z-19RB I think it might be better to only have one fuel pump at a time, to prevent overloading the pressure regulator. I don't know how much flow the P.R. can handle, since I have not yet powered up the system. If the regulator can handle two pumps, then no problem. However, if it can't, then running two pumps may adversely affect the mixture. I recently saw an accident report involving a Lancair IV where it is speculated that two pumps were running at once and the engine lost power because of an excessively rich condition. Anyway, that's my reasoning. Sam Hoskins Quickie Blog Quickie Website On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 7:52 AM, Joe wrote: Sam, Why are you using a double pole switch for "System B Engine Secondary" ECU instead of a single pole switch? Suggestion for Ignition Coil +12V Supply: connect switch terminals 1 & 4 together and terminals 3 & 6 together for redundancy. Would it hurt anything to have two pumps running at once? It would greatly simplify the circuit to have one switch for each pump, with each switch having 3 positions: source A, OFF, source B. It would be up to the pilot to make sure that only one pump in turned on at a time. If you absolutely have to prevent both pumps from running at once, let me know and I will draw a circuit using either 4 switches or else 2 switches plus diodes. Joe http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?======================= ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joe" <fran5sew(at)banyanol.com>
Subject: Re: Two Fuel pumps Z-19RB
Date: Jun 16, 2008
Sam, How about the attached circuit? Four fuses are necessary in case a pump shorts out and blows two of them. The switch is still a single failure point. It would be better to tolerate two pumps running at once. It would seem that regulators should be available to handle the flow rate of two pumps. If you do not want the voltage drop of diodes, two of SPDT switches could be used instead of diodes. The more complicated the circuit, the greater the chance of something going wrong. Joe ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Lead-Free Solders
>Comments/Questions: I enjoyed reading the information in your article on >crimping vs. soldering. One thing that I did not see addressed was the >problem of tin whiskers growing on soldered connections and causing shorts: Tin whiskers occur in very selective environments and only from tin-lead alloys with every low lead levels. At the present time, there are no lead-free alloys that have been embraced by the aviation industry . . . and I would presume the military isn't really enthusiastic about low-lead or lead-free solders either. In addition to the tin-whisker problems, lead-free falls short in a number of performance characteristics. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one wishes to be "world class" at ) ( anything, what ever you do must be ) ( exercised EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Broken Low Voltage Module
Date: Jun 16, 2008
Bob, I sent the board in a couple of weeks ago. It should have been waiting for you when you returned from your vacation to California. I never heard if you found it ok. Have you had a chance to take a look at it, and if so, what did you discover? Bill B -----Original Message----- From: Bill Bradburry [mailto:bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 5:10 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Previous Master solonoid clicking I sent the board in the other day. It should be waiting when you return from your vacation. It will be interesting to see what you find. Thanks, Bill B -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 2:07 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Previous Master solonoid clicking --> > > >Bob, >Thanks for the evaluation/repair offer. I will send it in, but please >remember that you only supplied the board. I supplied the components. >You don't owe me any free repair! But I do owe you a "grade" on your efforts with a goal of honing your skills. It also affords me a data point which may have future value. I've fielded a ton of incoming cabbages and tomatoes for allegedly faulty design and/or advice . . . all based on situations about which I was honorably skeptical but unable to defend for lack of hands-on experience. This was in spite of life-time, money-back guarantees so I suspect the allegations were bogus. But my warranty extends to both ideas and product so we're doing each other a favor here my friend. >The engine, with this module working, has been running on the ground >for probably 2 hours. I am not ready for flight yet. Understand. Let's see if we can figure out what's going on. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 17, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Broken Low Voltage Module
> > >Bob, >I sent the board in a couple of weeks ago. It should have been waiting for >you when you returned from your vacation to California. I never heard if >you found it ok. > >Have you had a chance to take a look at it, and if so, what did you >discover? > >Bill B It's laying on the desk right in front of me. I was thinking this morning that I could probably get to it this evening. I've been on travel quite a bit but there's a breathing spell coming up. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Broken Low Voltage Module
Date: Jun 17, 2008
Great! Thanks Bob! Bill B -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:55 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Broken Low Voltage Module --> > > >Bob, >I sent the board in a couple of weeks ago. It should have been waiting >for you when you returned from your vacation to California. I never >heard if you found it ok. > >Have you had a chance to take a look at it, and if so, what did you >discover? > >Bill B It's laying on the desk right in front of me. I was thinking this morning that I could probably get to it this evening. I've been on travel quite a bit but there's a breathing spell coming up. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Jones" <djones(at)northboone.net>
Subject: Thermocouple wire
Date: Jun 17, 2008
What is the function of "serving thermocouple wire". Jonsey ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 17, 2008
From: "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson(at)pobox.com>
Subject: Slow make/break contacts
Hi Bob, While I was looking for the S700 series specs on Carling's www site, I came around a line of switches (F Series, in particular) with "slow make/break" contacts. This struck me as odd. Under what circumstances would one want to spread the contacts slowly? Thank you, /\/elson ~~ Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any spring. ~~ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 17, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Slow make/break contacts
> > > >Hi Bob, > >While I was looking for the S700 series specs on Carling's www site, I >came around a line of switches (F Series, in particular) with "slow >make/break" contacts. This struck me as odd. Under what circumstances >would one want to spread the contacts slowly? It's not that you WANT to, it's an artifact of an inexpensive switch. You can buy switches with very fast contact spreading velocities and fast/forceful closing characteristics but these will use a mechanism that is much more complicated than: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/Carling_Cutaway.jpg While the el-cheeso switch does have an spring loaded, over-center action, it's still classed as a slow make-break device because you can "tease" it open and "sneak up" on a closure by holding the handle and preventing it from exploiting the over-center behavior. In a fast make/break device, you can't tease it. Once past the point of no return, the switch snaps to the new position with gusto. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 17, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Thermocouple wire
>What is the function of "serving thermocouple wire". > >Jonsey Your use of the word "serving" doesn't bring up an image for me. I think I've heard the term used but its meaning escapes me at the moment. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 17, 2008
Subject: Re: Thermocouple wire
Hmmmm! When on a sailboat, "serving" something means we wrap it in a protective covering. Any possibilities there? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 6/17/2008 7:02:11 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net writes: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >What is the function of "serving thermocouple wire". > >Jonsey Your use of the word "serving" doesn't bring up an image for me. I think I've heard the term used but its meaning escapes me at the moment. Bob . . . **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 17, 2008
From: "Paul Kuntz" <paul.r.kuntz(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Thermocouple wire
That's what I was thinking -- in nautical use, serving means to wrap a large line with a smaller line or with cloth to protect it from chafing. So, when a wire is significantly longer than required, the excess is often folded back on itself a few times, then the end wrapped (served) around the folded portion to take up the extra length neatly. In the case of thermocouple wire, the application would be to get rid of the slack in the wire without having to cut it and thereby introduce additional dissimilar material junctions in the middle of the wire. Bob has talked many times about joining or splicing thermocouple wires so as not to influence the properties of its temperature detection ability, but I suspect the idea of "serving" the wire rather than remove the exess is another bit of electrical folklore that advises people to never cut and rejoin thermocouple cable. Cheers, Paul Kuntz On 6/17/08, BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote: > > Hmmmm! > > When on a sailboat, "serving" something means we wrap it in a protective > covering. Any possibilities there? > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > AKA > Bob Siegfried > Ancient Aviator > 628 West 86th Street > Downers Grove, IL 60516 > 630 985-8502 > Stearman N3977A > Brookeridge Air Park LL22 > > In a message dated 6/17/2008 7:02:11 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net writes: > > nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> > > >What is the function of "serving thermocouple wire". > > > >Jonsey > > Your use of the word "serving" doesn't bring > up an image for me. I think I've heard the term > used but its meaning escapes me at the moment. > > Bob . . . > > > ------------------------------ > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars<http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007> > . > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 17, 2008
From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Thermocouple wire
Hi Jonsey, Can you please restate your question and give us some reference context?? Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dennis Jones Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 1:59 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouple wire What is the function of "serving thermocouple wire". Jonsey ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Jones" <djones(at)northboone.net>
Subject: Thermocouple wire
Date: Jun 17, 2008
I found a reference in AC 21-99 that states that the thermocouple wire is served at the branching point using nylon or waxed cotton cord in cool areas and fiberglass cord in hot areas. It also shows how to do the wrapping. It also references using clear lacquer at the flat base area covering 12.7 mm. The serving will prevent unraveling of the outer jacket. Jonsey ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 17, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Thermocouple wire
>I found a reference in AC 21-99 that states that the thermocouple wire is >served at the branching point using nylon or waxed cotton cord in cool >areas and fiberglass cord in hot areas. It also shows how to do the >wrapping. It also references using clear lacquer at the flat base area >covering 12.7 mm. The serving will prevent unraveling of the outer jacket. > Aha! Yes, SOME thermocouple wires are covered in a woven fiberglas jacket and they will unravel with time and look funky. I have used the dacron flat lace to wrap the outer jacket and prevent fraying. You can use a short piece of heatshrink for this task too. As far as 'extra' wire, you can coil it up if you're loath to cut it. But I generally cut to finished length and put a connector on it. My favorite TC wires are the TT-K series from Omega found at: http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=XC_K_TC_WIRE&Nav=temh06 Neoflon PFA (HighPerformance) 20 TT-K-20 Solid 20 TT-K-20S 7 x 28 22 TT-K-22S 7 x 30 24 TT-K-24 Solid 24 TT-K-24S 7 x 32 30 TT-K-30 Solid 36 TT-K-36 Solid 40 TT-K-40 Solid This is a Tefzel-like insulation that is easy to strip, reasonably robust and user friendly in the tiny (36 and 40AWG) wire sizes. This stuff won't unravel. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 17, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Thermocouple wire
> > >Interestingly enough, the only result from Google for "serving >thermocouple wire" is to AC-21-99, Aircraft Wiring and Bonding > >Section 2 Chapter 16, Figure 16-14 shows the procedure and seems to >match with the nautical terminology although I've don't recall hearing >it before in reference to wiring. >(http://www.casa.gov.au/rules/1998casr/021/021c99s2c16.pdf) > >Bob W. (Hanging on to the "bitter end".) Interesting. This is a rather dated document that touches on TC wiring techniques typical of 1930 to 1950 when self-powered TC temperature instruments were common. These tended to have large AWG wires of specific length that could not be altered without affecting calibration of the instrument. They also did not benefit from modern plastic insulations. Modern TC signal conditioners draw pico-amperes of Seebeck voltage, ANY gage wire of ANY length will produce satisfactory performance. Yeah kids, that's how our grandpas used to do it! Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Scott R. Shook" <sshook(at)cox.net>
Subject: Two Fuel pumps Z-19RB
Date: Jun 18, 2008
Correct me if I am wrong here, but this is my understanding of a Fuel Injected systems such as Subaru's. On a continuous loop system such as the Subaru FI system, doesn't the EFI computer control the mixture (rich/lean) and not the fuel pumps? The fuel system pumps gallons of fuel through in a matter of minutes and the EFI system allows only a small portion of that fuel to be released by the injectors into the combustion chamber. Having both pumps on during takeoff, landing, and other low altitude maneuvers is only good measure in case of a failure on the single pump. Scott R. Shook RV-7A (Building) N696JS (Reserved) _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins Sent: Monday, 16 June, 2008 06:13 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Two Fuel pumps Z-19RB I think it might be better to only have one fuel pump at a time, to prevent overloading the pressure regulator. I don't know how much flow the P.R. can handle, since I have not yet powered up the system. If the regulator can handle two pumps, then no problem. However, if it can't, then running two pumps may adversely affect the mixture. I recently saw an accident report involving a Lancair IV where it is speculated that two pumps were running at once and the engine lost power because of an excessively rich condition. Anyway, that's my reasoning. Sam Hoskins Quickie Blog <http://www.samhoskins.blogspot.com/> Quickie Website <http://home.mchsi.com/%7Eshoskins/index.htm> On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 7:52 AM, Joe wrote: Sam, Why are you using a double pole switch for "System B Engine Secondary" ECU instead of a single pole switch? Suggestion for Ignition Coil +12V Supply: connect switch terminals 1 & 4 together and terminals 3 & 6 together for redundancy. Would it hurt anything to have two pumps running at once? It would greatly simplify the circuit to have one switch for each pump, with each switch having 3 positions: source A, OFF, source B. It would be up to the pilot to make sure that only one pump in turned on at a time. If you absolutely have to prevent both pumps from running at once, let me know and I will draw a circuit using either 4 switches or else 2 switches plus diodes. Joe ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 18, 2008
Subject: Two Fuel pumps Z-19RB
From: jon(at)finleyweb.net
=0AHi Scott - Good Question but a long answer... :-)=0A=0A =0A=0AWith an OE M EFI system (i.e. Subaru), there are two modes to consider - Open and Clos ed loop. In Closed loop, the oxygen sensor output is being referenced by t he ECU and the mixture is adjusted to obtain the optimal setting (stoichiom etric). In Open loop, lookup table data values are used to set the mixture (based on RPM, atmospheric pressure, and ??? (I can't remember but it seem s like there is more..)). In both cases, the mixture is varied by the amou nt of time the injectors are open (pulse width). In most all modes of flig ht, the OEM ECU is in Open loop mode. For example; the EJ-22 Legacy ECU go es into Open loop mode at about 3000 rpm (if memory serves). A number of pe ople running the OEM system were varying fuel pressure to adjust the mixtur e in flight.=0A=0A =0A=0AThe RWS system (EC2) does not use an oxygen sensor - rather only a set of lookup tables. These values are very easy to set by the operator (in flight or on the ground) plus a mixture "dial" is also pr ovided to set the mixture during atypical situations (i.e. idle when very c old (richen), long-hot climb (richen for cooling), etc...).=0A=0A =0A=0AIn the case of the OEM Open Loop and all the time for the RWS system, increasi ng the fuel pressure will result in more fuel being injected for the given injector pulse. Higher pressure - richer mixture, lower pressure - leaner m ixture. So, going back to the conversation; when fuel pump one is running, I see about 36 psi. Turning on pump two increases the presure by about 3ps i which affects the mixture (richens) but it is by such a small percentage that it is really not noticeable (at least not on the air/fuel ratio guage that I use).=0A=0A =0A=0AThe issue that I believe Sam is worried about is h is fuel pressure regulator being unable to 'bypass' enough fuel when both p umps are on resulting in the pressure climbing and the mixture getting rich er and richer.=0A=0A =0A=0AJon=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: "Sco tt R. Shook" =0ASent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 2:24pm=0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Two Fuel pumps Z-19RB=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ACorrect me if I am wrong here, but this is my understanding of a Fuel Injected systems such as Subaru=99 s. =0A=0A =0A=0AOn a continuous loop system such as the Subaru FI system, d oesn=99t the EFI computer control the mixture (rich/lean) and not the fuel pumps? The fuel system pumps gallons of fuel through in a matter of minutes and the EFI system allows only a small portion of that fuel to be r eleased by the injectors into the combustion chamber.=0A=0A =0A=0AHaving bo th pumps on during takeoff, landing, and other low altitude maneuvers is on ly good measure in case of a failure on the single pump.=0A=0A=0A=0A =0AScott R. Shook =0ARV-7A (Building) =0AN696JS (R eserved) =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AFrom: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matro nics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins=0ASent: Monday, 16 June, 2008 06:13=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@ma tronics.com=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Two Fuel pumps Z-19RB=0A=0A =0A=0AI think it might be better to only have one fuel pump at a time, to p revent overloading the pressure regulator. I don't know how much flow the P.R. can handle, since I have not yet powered up the system. If the regula tor can handle two pumps, then no problem. However, if it can't, then runn ing two pumps may adversely affect the mixture. =0A=0AI recently saw an acc ident report involving a Lancair IV where it is speculated that two pumps w ere running at once and the engine lost power because of an excessively ric h condition.=0A=0AAnyway, that's my reasoning.=0A=0ASam Hoskins=0A[http://w ww.samhoskins.blogspot.com/] Quickie Blog=0A[http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskin s/index.htm] Quickie Website=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 7:52 AM, Jo e wrote:=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ASam,=0A=0A =0A=0AWhy are you using a double pole switch for "System B Engine Secondary" ECU instead of a single pole switch?=0A=0A =0A=0ASuggestion for Ignition Coil +12V Sup ply: connect switch terminals 1 & 4 together and terminals 3 & 6 together f or redundancy.=0A=0A =0A=0AWould it hurt anything to have two pumps running at once? It would greatly simplify the circuit to have one switch for eac h pump, with each switch having 3 positions: source A, OFF, source B. It w ould be up to the pilot to make sure that only one pump in turned on at a t ime.=0A=0A =0A=0AIf you absolutely have to prevent both pumps from running at once, let me know and I will draw a circuit using either 4 switches or e lse 2 switches plus diodes.=0A=0A =0A=0AJoe=0A=0A=0A =0A =0A =0A=0A =0A =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List =0A=0A=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0A=0A=0A=0A=0Ahttp://www.matronics. nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Ae ://www.matronics.com/contribution] http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A ============0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 18, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Contactor Diodes
>I am reading Chapter 11 of the AeroElectric manual, pp. 11-20 and 11-21 >regarding battery and starter contactors, and I am having trouble >understanding the use of diodes for spike protection. > >In figure 11-20 for a battery contactor, the diode is connected between >the coil terminal and the large battery terminal. When the contactor >switch is opened, and the magnetic field of the coil collapses, what >prevents an electrical spike from traveling directly out of the coil back >through the 22AWG wire to the master switch, bypassing the diode, which is >shown as being wired in parallel to the coil? > >In figure 11-21 for a starter contactor, the direction of the diode >appears to prevent a flow to ground, where there are no electrical >components to protect. Again, what would prevent the spike from traveling >back through the 20AWG wire to the starter switch, bypassing the diode? > >I m sure these are dumb questions, but I m not very quick at picking up >some of these things as some folks are. I would appreciate help in >understanding it. No problem Dave, See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/spike.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/spikecatcher.pdf If these don't answer or satisfactorily explain then get back with us here on the List. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 18, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Alaskan STOL Contest
A reader sent me this video. Impressive enough to dedicate some server space to it. You're invited to view it at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Video/Alaska_STOL.wmv This is a BIG file, about 4.5 Mb so if you're saddled with dial-up, be aware that it will take awhile. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Alternator Warranty Data Point - Rebuilt vs. New
Date: Jun 18, 2008
Just a data point I thought might be interesting. I recently had the opportunity to review warranty rates on several of the major rotating electrical rebuilders for alternator warranty returns through autopart stores. Low number was 9.6% and high was 18%. This includes wholesale as well as retail sales with no data as to specific cause. The manufacturers all report "true" warranty rates at 5%- 8% on product tested after it was returned. Warranty on New Alternators was running 5.6% so they were substantially better. No numbers on the "true" rates for New product but I would think it about 3%. These numbers are very much in line with historical rates we saw several years ago. Also should note that warranty rates do vary considerably by specific application and these numbers apply to the category and not a particular unit. It is interesting that while the technology involved in the rebuilding and testing processes has improved over the past few years, the actual return rates have not reflected the benefits of better processes. ( I attribute that to "trial and error" troubleshooting on the retail side.) I would interpret this to say that if you are using an automotive alternator, the odds of a failure in the first few hours of operation are about double for rebuilt versus new and 1 bad rebuilt unit out of every 10-15 should be a normal expectation. For our purposes,... buy new if you can. It would be very interesting to know what the return rate and actual failure rate is on B&C units after they have done all the extra tuning, balancing, etc. Maybe Bob could get that number for comparison? Bill S 7a Finishing Z13 P-mag B&C ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 18, 2008
Subject: Re: Alternator Warranty Data Point - Rebuilt vs. New
In a message dated 6/18/2008 10:12:40 P.M. Central Daylight Time, billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net writes: It would be very interesting to know what the return rate and actual failure rate is on B&C units after they have done all the extra tuning, balancing, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My personal track record is nearing 600 hrs on 2 B&C L40s (2 planes) and they are both still kicking coulombs with nary a hickup! Soliciting other love/war stories- Mark **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>
Date: Jun 19, 2008
Subject: Alternator Warranty Data Point - Rebuilt vs.
New Or indeed what the Plane Power folks are seeing. I must admit I have personally not heard of a single warranty failure on ei ther of these units.. Frank 7a flying 300 hours ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr ic-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Schlatterer Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 8:07 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Warranty Data Point - Rebuilt vs. Ne w Just a data point I thought might be interesting. I recently had the oppo rtunity to review warranty rates on several of the major rotating electrica l rebuilders for alternator warranty returns through autopart stores. Low number was 9.6% and high was 18%. This includes wholesale as well as retai l sales with no data as to specific cause. The manufacturers all report "t rue" warranty rates at 5%- 8% on product tested after it was returned. Wa rranty on New Alternators was running 5.6% so they were substantially bette r. No numbers on the "true" rates for New product but I would think it abo ut 3%. These numbers are very much in line with historical rates we saw se veral years ago. Also should note that warranty rates do vary considerably by specific application and these numbers apply to the category and not a particular unit. It is interesting that while the technology involved in the rebuilding and testing processes has improved over the past few years, the actual return r ates have not reflected the benefits of better processes. ( I attribute t hat to "trial and error" troubleshooting on the retail side.) I would interpret this to say that if you are using an automotive alternato r, the odds of a failure in the first few hours of operation are about doub le for rebuilt versus new and 1 bad rebuilt unit out of every 10-15 should be a normal expectation. For our purposes,..... buy new if you can. It would be very interesting to know what the return rate and actual failur e rate is on B&C units after they have done all the extra tuning, balancing , etc. Maybe Bob could get that number for comparison? Bill S 7a Finishing Z13 P-mag B&C ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 19, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Alternator Warranty Data Point - Rebuilt vs.
New >Just a data point I thought might be interesting. I recently had the >opportunity to review warranty rates on several of the major rotating >electrical rebuilders for alternator warranty returns through autopart >stores. Low number was 9.6% and high was 18%. This includes wholesale as >well as retail sales with no data as to specific cause. The manufacturers >all report "true" warranty rates at 5%- 8% on product tested after it was >returned. Warranty on New Alternators was running 5.6% so they were >substantially better. No numbers on the "true" rates for New product but >I would think it about 3%. These numbers are very much in line with >historical rates we saw several years ago. Also should note that warranty >rates do vary considerably by specific application and these numbers apply >to the category and not a particular unit. > >It is interesting that while the technology involved in the rebuilding and >testing processes has improved over the past few years, the actual return >rates have not reflected the benefits of better processes. ( I attribute >that to "trial and error" troubleshooting on the retail side.) > >I would interpret this to say that if you are using an automotive >alternator, the odds of a failure in the first few hours of operation are >about double for rebuilt versus new and 1 bad rebuilt unit out of every >10-15 should be a normal expectation. For our purposes,&.. buy new if you can. > >It would be very interesting to know what the return rate and actual >failure rate is on B&C units after they have done all the extra tuning, >balancing, etc. Maybe Bob could get that number for comparison? I don't know that B&C keeps detailed records on such things and I'm not personally cognizant of their field experience over the last 6-8 years. But while I was working directly with and for B&C (during the production of first 2000 or so alternators) I can say that I witnessed an exceedingly low return rate. Probably on the order of 1% per year for the FLEET of fielded product. I can also state that the majority if not all returns were for installation or maintenance induced damage. We replaced a number of b-lead studs that were burned off due to loosened nuts. I recall one alternator that needed new bearings . . . seems the guy liked to wash his engine often with high-pressure, soap laden water. I never saw a brush failure or rectifier failure or an opening of a joint either electrical or mechanical. Of course this begs the question of just what warranty is either implied or stated in writing. If one does a Google search on the B&C website for the word "warranty" you get one hit at: http://www.bandc.biz/SYSTEM_DIAGRAMS.html An this use of the word speaks only to reader's options to adopt the design goals of any of the electrical system architectures posted. I worked 12 years running in the OSH booth for B&C. A common question I fielded from attendees was "what's the warranty on this stuff?". I could confidently answer, "Our warranty is no unhappy customers. If you have an issue with a B&C product, you call this guy over here (pointing to Bill). If he doesn't take care of your needs, you call me and I'll drive up to Newton and find out what his problem is!" The answer to your question does not stand simply on consideration of "rebuilt" versus "new". It cannot be divined from the study of published warranty return numbers. The return on investment for the user of any product starts with efficient and robust satisfaction of design goals supported by a sense of craftsmanship and customer service from the time the first parts are assembled until the customer is finished with the product and is satisfied with the demonstrated service life. In B&C's case, they start with a robust component with a exemplary, demonstrated service life in the field. They do only that which is necessary to make that product fit the legacy design goals for aircraft electrical system performance and control. Finally, they stand behind their stated warranty policy. This isn't a numbers game, it's a say what you do, do what you say game. In B&C's case up until 2000 or so, they said "no unhappy customers" and I believed that because it was my job to help deliver to that statement. I have no reason to believe that either statement or policy has changed since that time. I've worked in this industry for virtually all of my professional career . . . and even in 'retirement' my major cash flow comes from aviation. If I had a major disappointment to share with you, it was the huge shift from a satisfied, loyal customer game to a numbers game. Our highest institutions of learning have discovered ways to analyze the hell out of any constellation of processes and to chart the results in living color. Other departments in those same institutions have neglected to teach their students that those analysis techniques are useful tools to help you fine tune performance but must be applied and interpreted carefully so as to avoid obscuring facts. I have seen a warranty returns investigation that was ultimately "resolved" by cutting the warranty period from two down to one year. The bleeding fell by 90%. The change of one word on a piece of paper saved the company about a quarter million a year! An the warranty return numbers for that device jumped dramatically . . . and some bureaucrat got to take credit for it. This same industry drives design decisions based on so-called reliability studies. We get out the holy-watered documents that tell us how to predict the failure rates of components used in electronics. We enter all the components into this big computer model and crunch the numbers to see what number falls out for predicted mean time between failure (MTBF). My customers live and die on MTBF numbers. Sitting in a conference room last year I had to struggle to keep a straight face when our customer's purchase specification called for a 20,000 hour MTBF on our proposed product. The byproduct of these numbers games is almost total BS. After ten years of production on the finished product, it is axiomatic that we will have made numerous repairs to fielded systems for a combination of reasons not limited to design error, manufacturing error, installation error, maintenance error, operating error or conditions that were never anticipated in the original design . . . and NONE of those systems will have been in service for 20,000 hours! Nonetheless, somebody will massage and tweak the so-called MTBF "study" until the computer model coughs out the desired number whereupon our customer smiles and signs the check that purchases a few million dollars worth of this "golden product". The global warming cult has applied computer modeling tools to their particular social engineering goals with great success. As consumers, our faith in such numbers needs to be tempered with understanding of how they were generated. The warranty return rate for brand X may appear a whole lot better than brand Y simply because brand X has a 90 day warranty and brand Y has a 1 year warranty. Further, their numbers may or may not reflect returns based on careful analysis of manufacturer's culpability. I can say that all the returns on B&C alternators I witnessed were for installation or maintenance induced failures but we fixed them under warranty anyhow . . . not because the product failed to meet performance expectations but because the warranty was "no unhappy customers". The true answer to your question comes from the search for an unhappy B&C customer. I've heard many a tale from guys who heard that a second cousin of their friend thought B&C and or AeroElectric Connection stuff was junk. But even after offering cash rewards for these unhappy customers to step forward and at least get their money back, silence from the field was noteworthy. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 19, 2008
From: "Robert Feldtman" <bobf(at)feldtman.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator Warranty Data Point - Rebuilt vs. New
Bob - you bring up an interesting point - what is the best way (from an aicraft electrical standpoint) to "wash" an engine. Different A&Ps recommend different soaps, detergents, ways etc. I once lost a GM alternator on a truck when it was "Steam cleaned" - and the alternator did go out at an inopportune time. Obviously don't squirt anything into the alternator, but what about for all the other wires etc? I've never seen that addressed on the forum as to the best and safest way to clean up under the cowl! thanks bobf 125GS LOM powered Glastar On 6/19/08, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> > > > Just a data point I thought might be interesting. I recently had the >> opportunity to review warranty rates on several of the major rotating >> electrical rebuilders for alternator warranty returns through autopart >> stores. Low number was 9.6% and high was 18%. This includes wholesale as >> well as retail sales with no data as to specific cause. The manufacturers >> all report "true" warranty rates at 5%- 8% on product tested after it was >> returned. Warranty on New Alternators was running 5.6% so they were >> substantially better. No numbers on the "true" rates for New product but I >> would think it about 3%. These numbers are very much in line with >> historical rates we saw several years ago. Also should note that warranty >> rates do vary considerably by specific application and these numbers apply >> to the category and not a particular unit. >> >> It is interesting that while the technology involved in the rebuilding and >> testing processes has improved over the past few years, the actual return >> rates have not reflected the benefits of better processes. ( I attribute >> that to "trial and error" troubleshooting on the retail side.) >> >> I would interpret this to say that if you are using an automotive >> alternator, the odds of a failure in the first few hours of operation are >> about double for rebuilt versus new and 1 bad rebuilt unit out of every >> 10-15 should be a normal expectation. For our purposes,&.. buy new if you >> can. >> >> It would be very interesting to know what the return rate and actual >> failure rate is on B&C units after they have done all the extra tuning, >> balancing, etc. Maybe Bob could get that number for comparison? >> > > I don't know that B&C keeps detailed records on such things > and I'm not personally cognizant of their field experience > over the last 6-8 years. But while I was working directly > with and for B&C (during the production of first 2000 > or so alternators) I can say that I witnessed an exceedingly > low return rate. Probably on the order of 1% per year for > the FLEET of fielded product. I can also state that the > majority if not all returns were for installation or maintenance > induced damage. We replaced a number of b-lead studs > that were burned off due to loosened nuts. I recall one > alternator that needed new bearings . . . seems the guy > liked to wash his engine often with high-pressure, soap > laden water. > > I never saw a brush failure or rectifier failure or > an opening of a joint either electrical or mechanical. > Of course this begs the question of just what warranty > is either implied or stated in writing. If one does > a Google search on the B&C website for the word "warranty" > you get one hit at: > > http://www.bandc.biz/SYSTEM_DIAGRAMS.html > > An this use of the word speaks only to reader's > options to adopt the design goals of any of the > electrical system architectures posted. > > I worked 12 years running in the OSH booth for > B&C. A common question I fielded from attendees > was "what's the warranty on this stuff?". I could > confidently answer, "Our warranty is no unhappy > customers. If you have an issue with a B&C > product, you call this guy over here (pointing > to Bill). If he doesn't take care of your > needs, you call me and I'll drive up to Newton > and find out what his problem is!" > > The answer to your question does not stand simply > on consideration of "rebuilt" versus "new". It > cannot be divined from the study of published > warranty return numbers. The return on investment > for the user of any product starts with efficient > and robust satisfaction of design goals supported > by a sense of craftsmanship and customer service > from the time the first parts are assembled until > the customer is finished with the product and is > satisfied with the demonstrated service life. > > In B&C's case, they start with a robust component > with a exemplary, demonstrated service life in > the field. They do only that which is necessary to > make that product fit the legacy design goals for > aircraft electrical system performance and control. > Finally, they stand behind their stated warranty > policy. > > This isn't a numbers game, it's a say what you do, > do what you say game. In B&C's case up until 2000 > or so, they said "no unhappy customers" and I believed > that because it was my job to help deliver to that > statement. I have no reason to believe that either > statement or policy has changed since that time. > > I've worked in this industry for virtually all of > my professional career . . . and even in 'retirement' > my major cash flow comes from aviation. If I had > a major disappointment to share with you, it was > the huge shift from a satisfied, loyal customer > game to a numbers game. Our highest institutions > of learning have discovered ways to analyze the > hell out of any constellation of processes and > to chart the results in living color. Other > departments in those same institutions have neglected > to teach their students that those analysis techniques > are useful tools to help you fine tune performance > but must be applied and interpreted carefully so > as to avoid obscuring facts. > > I have seen a warranty returns investigation that > was ultimately "resolved" by cutting the warranty > period from two down to one year. The bleeding fell by > 90%. The change of one word on a piece of paper > saved the company about a quarter million a year! > An the warranty return numbers for that device > jumped dramatically . . . and some bureaucrat > got to take credit for it. > > This same industry drives design decisions based on > so-called reliability studies. We get out the > holy-watered documents that tell us how to predict > the failure rates of components used in electronics. > We enter all the components into this big computer > model and crunch the numbers to see what number > falls out for predicted mean time between failure > (MTBF). My customers live and die on MTBF numbers. > > Sitting in a conference room last year I had to > struggle to keep a straight face when our customer's > purchase specification called for a 20,000 hour > MTBF on our proposed product. The byproduct of these > numbers games is almost total BS. After ten years > of production on the finished product, it is > axiomatic that we will have made numerous repairs > to fielded systems for a combination of reasons > not limited to design error, manufacturing error, > installation error, maintenance error, operating > error or conditions that were never anticipated > in the original design . . . and NONE of those > systems will have been in service for 20,000 > hours! > > Nonetheless, somebody will massage and tweak the > so-called MTBF "study" until the computer model > coughs out the desired number whereupon our customer > smiles and signs the check that purchases a few > million dollars worth of this "golden product". > The global warming cult has applied computer > modeling tools to their particular social engineering > goals with great success. > > As consumers, our faith in such numbers needs to > be tempered with understanding of how they were > generated. The warranty return rate for brand > X may appear a whole lot better than brand Y simply > because brand X has a 90 day warranty and brand > Y has a 1 year warranty. > > Further, their numbers may or may not reflect > returns based on careful analysis of manufacturer's > culpability. I can say that all the returns on > B&C alternators I witnessed were for installation > or maintenance induced failures but we fixed them > under warranty anyhow . . . not because the product > failed to meet performance expectations but because > the warranty was "no unhappy customers". > > The true answer to your question comes from the > search for an unhappy B&C customer. I've heard > many a tale from guys who heard that a second > cousin of their friend thought B&C and or > AeroElectric Connection stuff was junk. But even > after offering cash rewards for these unhappy > customers to step forward and at least get their > money back, silence from the field was noteworthy. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 19, 2008
Subject: Re: Alternator Warranty Data Point - Rebuilt vs. New
Good Morning Bob, Different Bob here, but I never do any cleaning within my cowl other than wiping with a rag. On the very rare and unlikely occasion when a small bit of grime gets in a difficult corner, I will use a small paint brush moistened with mineral spirits to loosen things up. Other than that, it is a rag only. That rag may or may not be moistened with mineral spirits or another appropriate cleaner. Works for me! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator 628 West 86th Street Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 In a message dated 6/19/2008 11:00:00 A.M. Central Daylight Time, bobf(at)feldtman.com writes: Bob - you bring up an interesting point - what is the best way (from an aicraft electrical standpoint) to "wash" an engine. Different A&Ps recommend different soaps, detergents, ways etc. I once lost a GM alternator on a truck when it was "Steam cleaned" - and the alternator did go out at an inopportune time. Obviously don't squirt anything into the alternator, but what about for all the other wires etc? I've never seen that addressed on the forum as to the best and safest way to clean up under the cowl! thanks bobf 125GS LOM powered Glastar **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Z-20 and 504-1 OV Kit
From: "ianwilson2" <ianwilson2(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Jun 19, 2008
Hi All, As part of the materials for my Z-20 based X-Air, I purchased a 504-1 OV kit from B&C as it was cheaper than the individual bits. In the kit is a yellow warning lamp that isn't used in the Z-20 architecture. Can I make use of the lamp to give me an 'alt off' type of indication, or maybe some other indicator or am I just being daft?? I already have the OV warn module, also from B&C, that gives me a low/high warning lamp. Thanks in advance. Ian Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188628#188628 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Slow make/break contacts
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jun 19, 2008
I'm going out on a limb here, because all this stuff is older than the Internet....but I vaguely recall that there is a perfectly good reason for these Series-F switches-- Cogging and trim applications where you want minimum ON time, and you want to tease a motor to move a crane or even aircraft elevator trim. I don't think this is anyone's ripoff marketing idea at all. "A witty saying proves nothing." --Voltaire -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188633#188633 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Fisher" <sonex76(at)velocity.net>
Subject: Re: Z-20 and 504-1 OV Kit
Date: Jun 19, 2008
Yes you can. I did just that with my Jab 3300 powered Sonex using a three position master Switch. Dick Fisher sonex76(at)velocity.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 19, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Z-20 and 504-1 OV Kit
> >Hi All, > >As part of the materials for my Z-20 based X-Air, I purchased a 504-1 OV >kit from B&C as it was cheaper than the individual bits. In the kit is a >yellow warning lamp that isn't used in the Z-20 architecture. Can I make >use of the lamp to give me an 'alt off' type of indication, or maybe some >other indicator or am I just being daft?? I already have the OV warn >module, also from B&C, that gives me a low/high warning lamp. Sure, if B&C is still shipping the same lamp holder I remember, it's a generic incandescent holder and lense: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/T-1-3slash4_domed_holder.jpg Put the right voltage bulb in it an you can use it for any purpose well served with an incandescent lamp. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave VanLanen" <davevanlanen(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Contactor Diodes
Date: Jun 19, 2008
I am still confused, but I think my reading of the second document might help me clarify my questions. This document states that the spike is negative-going, which I assume means that it is flowing toward ground (?) If this is true, then it leads me to two related questions: 1) If the spike is travelling toward ground, why would it hurt the switch, which is installed in the positive wire?, and 2) Why would the spike be stopped by the diode when it could more easily travel through the coil wire directly to ground? This last question may be a lack of understanding of how a diode works - does it "block" the spike from travelling against the arrowhead in the diagram, or does it actually "absorb" the spike? Thanks, Dave Date: Jun 18, 2008 From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> Subject: Re: Contactor Diodes <http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=73419981?KEYS=co ntactor_diodes?LISTNAME=AeroElectric?HITNUMBER=1?SERIAL=0858017710?SHOWBUTTO NS=NO> I am reading Chapter 11 of the AeroElectric manual, pp. 11-20 and 11-21 >regarding battery and starter contactors, and I am having trouble >understanding the use of diodes for spike protection. > >In figure 11-20 for a battery contactor, the diode is connected between >the coil terminal and the large battery terminal. When the contactor >switch is opened, and the magnetic field of the coil collapses, what >prevents an electrical spike from traveling directly out of the coil back >through the 22AWG wire to the master switch, bypassing the diode, which is >shown as being wired in parallel to the coil? > >In figure 11-21 for a starter contactor, the direction of the diode >appears to prevent a flow to ground, where there are no electrical >components to protect. Again, what would prevent the spike from traveling >back through the 20AWG wire to the starter switch, bypassing the diode? > >I m sure these are dumb questions, but I m not very quick at picking up >some of these things as some folks are. I would appreciate help in >understanding it. No problem Dave, See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/spike.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/spikecatcher.pdf If these don't answer or satisfactorily explain then get back with us here on the List. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 19, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Contactor Diodes
>I am still confused, but I think my reading of the second document might >help me clarify my questions. This document states that the spike is >negative-going, which I assume means that it is flowing toward ground >(?) If this is true, then it leads me to two related questions: 1) If >the spike is travelling toward ground, why would it hurt the switch, which >is installed in the positive wire? Polarity isn't the risk . . . it's VOLTAGE. The dielectric strength of air (insulation quality) is on the order of 700 volts per mil. Okay, how far apart are the contacts of a switch when they first open. Microinches? Nanoinches? Naw . . . damned SMALL inches. How many volts does it take to jump across damned small inches? damned small volts. So, this says that any time you break the contacts of any circuit there is a tiny little fire that strikes up in the gap. Now, depending on the energy stored (no much but enough to certainly feel if you put your finger on it), how fast the rate of rise for votlage (pretty quick, see graphs), spreading velocity of contacts (the faster they open the more likely they are to break the arc) and their mass (the heavier, the more heat they take out of the arc and promote quenching), there is some erosion of contact surface. We largely ignored it during the first 4 decades of aviation mostly out of lack of technical imperative combined with some ignorance. The cost of replacing a switch from time to time was quite small in the overall cost of owning an airplane. But about 10-12 years ago, the first of the two-stage starter solenoids started showing up on both OBAM and TC aircraft. The energy stored on the coils for these devices took a big jump and we saw a rash of contact failures in the legacy OFF-L-R-BOTH-START style keyswitches. This prompted the AD against ACS and similar switches for replacement of starter solenoid control contacts in the switch and ADDING the spike catcher diode. Problem was, as described in the article, the diode was originally installed across the switch in a manner that did not perform as needed. It was ultimately corrected and re-published to put the diode across the contactor coil. >, and 2) Why would the spike be stopped by the diode when it could more easily > travel through the coil wire directly to ground? Don't understand this . . . since the induced voltage caused by coil collapse is negative going at switch when the switch opens, and the diode (a check valve for electron flow) is positioned to conduct for any voltage that attempts to go more negative than ground, the spike current presented at the switch end is indeed shunted to ground and returns to the coil through ground. Virtually ALL the energy stored in the coil's magnetic field is dissipated in THE RESISTANCE OF THE COIL over tens of milliseconds. Review the write up on Kettering ignition system in chapter on OV relays. Kettering's points/coil/ distributor exploited this effect to generate a multi-kilovolt spike from a 6v car battery. Here he WANTED the spike to live long and prosper. In our case, the same kind of spike has deleterious effects on the contacts of the controlling switch. Kettering used 'condenser' to mitigate deleterious effects on points. > This last question may be a lack of understanding of how a diode works > - does it block the spike from travelling against the arrowhead in the > diagram, or does it actually absorb the spike? It's a check valve for electrons. Electrons flow through the device only in direction opposite the arrowhead. See description in Chapter 1. Oh yeah, sorry about that first article. Noticed later it didn't have the information I was thinking about. I'm not sure where the right one got off too. I've been reorganizing the website indexes. I'll find it evenually. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 19, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Lead-Free Solders
> >One additional point. The tin-whisker problem is a major concern in >aerospace etc. where the life of the circuitry is important. Your >statement about external coating can prevent (external to the device) >whisker growth is correct. The concern in the industry is internal whisker >growth with expected lifetimes of only a few years (before lead removal >the life was several decades). Consumer electronics have an average useful >life of only a few years (due to technology etc. improvements) and it is >not a large issue there. It is a large issue in aerospace where the >needed lifetime is typically tens of years. This is a major reason for the >exemption of RoHS requirement in aerospace among other long life systems. Yeah, that and the lack of toughness in lead-free joints. Seems that re-flowed joints of lead-free products don't get the wetting or structural integrity that we've enjoyed in 63/37 all these years. One of my clients has tried several lead-free solder systems and decided he wasn't going to change over soon . . . not at least with his present warranty policy! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 19, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Slow make/break contacts
> > > >Very well, then. Boy, those marketing folks can sell anything! Thank you, Bob. > >Take care, Not sure it's a marketing issue so much . . . just a factual statement of performance. Probably 99.99+ percent of all switches operated by the fingers are slow make/break devices. This included those things on the walls of your houses. It's a rare instance that potential stresses on a switch warrant the added cost of crafting a fast operating switch. I was in M.L. last week and needed to rip a long hunk of 2 x 10. Dug out "Old Shagnasty". A 10" table saw grandpa bought before I was born . . . I remember seeing it on the job sites when I was 6 or 7. That was the first time I'd seen both ends of a Bowden cable. Grandpa or one of the sons had rigged this choke cable to a fat switch built into the base of the Big Kahuna motor sitting a platform beneath the saw such that pushing and pulling on knob at the operator end would toggle the switch down below. Pretty cool gizmo even in the eyes of a first grader. When I pulled on that knob, it moved with considerable resistance at first. Thought it was just stiff for not having been used for 10+ years. But as I pulled the switch handle past the point-of-no-return, it literally jumped in my fingers and raced to complete the stroke faster than I could pull it. The saw came to life and I made a satisfyingly expeditious cut through that match stick with a REAL saw. Later when sucking up the sawdust with a sweeper, I took a close look at the switch and recalled having disassembled one just like it many moons ago. This was a Cutler-Hammer product with 10-32 screw terminals on the back. I recalled that not only was it a very robust spring loaded, non-teasing, over-center mechanism, the contacts were little KNIFE switches http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/knife_switch_1.jpg This kind of switch doesn't arc badly on closure because you're not slamming masses together and hoping that they'll quit bouncing eventually . . . This incorporation of the knife switch also arcs less on opening because the design was double-make, double-break . . . you had two sets of contacts WIPING in series for twice the spreading velocity augmented by the benefits of a non-teasing transfer mechanism. That explains in part why that switch has performed for decades from before I was born and is still working today. If you really want that level of performance for your airplane (or any other application) they're still made. But the suckers are about 2 x 2 x 2" behind the panel and wire with really big terminals. Guarantee they'll last the lifetime of your airplane but probably not a good return on investment. They probably make smaller versions. I just found a nice switch training manual from one of the pillars of the switching industry. I've posted it at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Switches/CH_Switch_Training_Manual.pdf I think that 10" saw sits on it's original base and getting wobbly. The rubber power cord jacket is craking too. Zach and I are planning to build a new base on retractable casters and replace the power cord with stuff that isn't cracked. If all goes well, that saw will cut wood for 5 generations of workers in the Nuckolls family woodshop . . . with what I believe is the original switch. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: revenson(at)comcast.net (Roger Evenson)
Subject: Diode Wiring
Date: Jun 20, 2008
Just received the diode assembly from B&C for the main bus to endurance bus wiring. The wiring diagram that came with it shows two of its terminals joined going to the main bus. In the Aero Connection, Bob says only one of the terminals goes to the main bus and the other two can be removed. Please clarify--which is correct? Thanks. Roger. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 20, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Diode Wiring
>--=======AVGMAIL-485C6DBA0000====== >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > >Just received the diode assembly from B&C for the main bus to endurance >bus wiring. The wiring diagram that came with it shows two of its >terminals joined going to the main bus. In the Aero Connection, Bob says >only one of the terminals goes to the main bus and the other two can be >removed. > >Please clarify--which is correct? Flip a coin . . . it doesn't matter much. SOMETIMES . . . the two paralleled diodes match close enough to sort-of share the loads but It's poor practice to depend on it. How big are your e-bus loads? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "r falstad" <bobair8(at)msn.com>
Subject: Millivolt Power Source?
Date: Jun 21, 2008
Is there a reasonably easy way to fabricate a millivolt source to calibrate an engine gauge? I need something in the range of 10 - 100 mVDC, say in increments of 10 mV. I've got a bunch of resistors. Can is just start linking them together and checking with my voltmeter until I get what I need? I presume that once I get the right voltage, I won't have to worry about blowing the instrument -- that it won't draw any more current than it is capable of handling. Correct? Thanks. Bob ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Millivolt Power Source?
From: "jetboy" <sanson.r(at)xtra.co.nz>
Date: Jun 21, 2008
Instrumentation people use a purpose made calibration source for this, what you suggest should be adequate for your task. May I suggest obtaining a 10-turn trimmer in the order of 100 ohms and feeding that from 12v via a resistor around 5K ohms. that will give you as fine an adjustment you will need with the digital voltmeter across the output (middle connection of the trimmer) No need to limit the output as the 5K resistor will do that. If you have other than a 100 or 200 ohm adjustable pot, just fit a 100 ohm resistor across it. Ralph -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=188952#188952 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Piavis <jpiavis(at)microsoft.com>
Date: Jun 21, 2008
Subject: NAV Troubleshooting
I've recently started flying my RV-7 with a Garmin 480/ SL-30. NAV antenna is an Archer antenna in the right tip. Strobe/ nav light cables are run per Archer instructions along leading edge of the antenna. COM works great on both radios, but I'm getting nothing for NAV and need to troubleshoot the p roblem. The single coax hits a splitter, which feeds the 480 and SL-30. What's the best method for troubleshooting? Thanks, Jim RV-7 Redmond, WA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
Subject: NAV Troubleshooting
Date: Jun 21, 2008
If both nav radios are down, I'd suspect the splitter. Bruce <http://www.glasair.org/> www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Piavis Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 8:17 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: NAV Troubleshooting I've recently started flying my RV-7 with a Garmin 480/ SL-30. NAV antenna is an Archer antenna in the right tip. Strobe/ nav light cables are run per Archer instructions along leading edge of the antenna. COM works great on both radios, but I'm getting nothing for NAV and need to troubleshoot the problem. The single coax hits a splitter, which feeds the 480 and SL-30. What's the best method for troubleshooting? Thanks, Jim RV-7 Redmond, WA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 21, 2008
Subject: Re: NAV Troubleshooting
From: Ron Quillin <rjquillin(at)gmail.com>
At 17:16 6/21/2008, you wrote: >I've recently started flying my RV-7 with a Garmin 480/ SL-30. NAV >antenna is an Archer antenna in the right tip. Strobe/ nav light >cables are run per Archer instructions along leading edge of the >antenna. COM works great on both radios, but I'm getting nothing for >NAV and need to troubleshoot the problem. The single coax hits a >splitter, which feeds the 480 and SL-30. Both the 480 and SL30 use separate antennas for COM and NAV. Two COM antennae, correct? You say you're splitting an antenna. Just the NAV, right? Is NAV bad on both the 480 and the 30? How is GS? Ron Q. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: revenson(at)comcast.net (Roger Evenson)
Subject: Re: Diode Wiring
Date: Jun 22, 2008
> >Just received the diode assembly from B&C for the main bus to endurance > >bus wiring. The wiring diagram that came with it shows two of its > >terminals joined going to the main bus. In the Aero Connection, Bob says > >only one of the terminals goes to the main bus and the other two can be > >removed. > > > >Please clarify--which is correct? > > Flip a coin . . . it doesn't matter much. > SOMETIMES . . . the two paralleled diodes > match close enough to sort-of share the > loads but It's poor practice to depend on > it. How big are your e-bus loads? > > Bob . . . E-BUS loads about 3.5 amps; maximum 9.5. Roger. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Piavis <jpiavis(at)microsoft.com>
Date: Jun 21, 2008
Subject: Re: NAV Troubleshooting
Yes, separate COM antennas for both radios, and only the one NAV, and NAV i s bad on both. I can't get an identifier on either so I haven't checked GS either. I'm suspecting a bad BNC connector somewhere between the splitter and the a ntenna. Subject: Re: NAV Troubleshooting From: Ron Quillin (rjquillin(at)gmail.com) Date: Sat Jun 21 - 5:50 PM At 17:16 6/21/2008, you wrote: >I've recently started flying my RV-7 with a Garmin 480/ SL-30. NAV >antenna is an Archer antenna in the right tip. Strobe/ nav light >cables are run per Archer instructions along leading edge of the >antenna. COM works great on both radios, but I'm getting nothing for >NAV and need to troubleshoot the problem. The single coax hits a >splitter, which feeds the 480 and SL-30. Both the 480 and SL30 use separate antennas for COM and NAV. Two COM antennae, correct? You say you're splitting an antenna. Just the NAV, right? Is NAV bad on both the 480 and the 30? How is GS? Ron Q. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 21, 2008
Subject: Re: NAV Troubleshooting
From: Ron Quillin <rjquillin(at)gmail.com>
At 19:05 6/21/2008, you wrote: >Yes, separate COM antennas for both radios, and only the one NAV, >and NAV is bad on both. I can't get an identifier on either so I >haven't checked GS either. > > I'm suspecting a bad BNC connector somewhere between the splitter > and the antenna. I'd agree it's something between the splitter and the antenna. Connectors always a good place to start. Splitters; being the passive devices they are, not much to fail except perhaps the input connector. Don't forget both the 480 and 30 again split the NAV signal internally for VOR-LOC/GS, so a good signal to them is important. Ron Q. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: Dimmer trick
Date: Jun 22, 2008
Listers I completed my instrument lights circuit, in which I have a dimmer, and all works OK. Nevertheless, when I tested it at night (still at my garage) I noticed that there are a couple of instruments (e.g. the Trutrak ADI) which have a brighter light than the others, and obviously the single dimmer, operating all lights simultaneously, doesn't get me an optimal dimming position for all lights at the same time. Is there a trick to obtain similar brightness in all lights? Can that be achieved by simply installing resistors in the brighter ones? Carlos ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 22, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Diode Wiring
> > > > >Just received the diode assembly from B&C for the main bus to endurance > > >bus wiring. The wiring diagram that came with it shows two of its > > >terminals joined going to the main bus. In the Aero Connection, Bob says > > >only one of the terminals goes to the main bus and the other two can be > > >removed. > > > > > >Please clarify--which is correct? > > > > Flip a coin . . . it doesn't matter much. > > SOMETIMES . . . the two paralleled diodes > > match close enough to sort-of share the > > loads but It's poor practice to depend on > > it. How big are your e-bus loads? > > > > Bob . . . > > >E-BUS loads about 3.5 amps; maximum 9.5. >Roger. Mount the diode to a metal surface, wiring to one diode is sufficient, two diodes doesn't hurt anything. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 22, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Dimmer trick
>Listers > > >I completed my instrument lights circuit, in which I have a dimmer, and >all works OK. > >Nevertheless, when I tested it at night (still at my garage) I noticed >that there are a couple of instruments (e.g. the Trutrak ADI) which have a >brighter light than the others, and obviously the single dimmer, operating >all lights simultaneously, doesn t get me an optimal dimming position for >all lights at the same time. > > >Is there a trick to obtain similar brightness in all lights? > >Can that be achieved by simply installing resistors in the brighter ones? Whatever you want to try is fair game. While heading the electrical avionics group on the GP-180 at Lear, I crafted a specification for a 4-channel panel dimmer that featured separate dimming curves for incandescent, EL, gas discharge and LED lighting. We were able to make the entire suite of technologies track each other from one knob. It's not a trivial task and many builders install separate dimmers for each technology. Setting up cockpit lighting was probably the worst job any electron-herder could contemplate for a complex TC aircraft back then. We had a real witches brew of technologies and every program manager, test-pilot and vp of engineering had his/her own idea of how things should work. No matter what you did, somebody was less than thrilled about it. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Gill" <wgill10(at)comcast.net>
Subject: NAV Troubleshooting
Date: Jun 22, 2008
Hello Jim, If the navaid is on the field where you're based, you could use an antenna from a portable com radio and connect it to the nav coax from each radio BEFORE the splitter to confirm operation of each radio. Then, work downstream if that worked. Bill RV-7 N151WP Lee's Summit, MO -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Piavis Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 7:17 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: NAV Troubleshooting I've recently started flying my RV-7 with a Garmin 480/ SL-30. NAV antenna is an Archer antenna in the right tip. Strobe/ nav light cables are run per Archer instructions along leading edge of the antenna. COM works great on both radios, but I'm getting nothing for NAV and need to troubleshoot the problem. The single coax hits a splitter, which feeds the 480 and SL-30. What's the best method for troubleshooting? Thanks, Jim RV-7 Redmond, WA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 22, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Inverting the sense for warning tone controls
A number of builders who are incorporating DIY warning tone generators in their projects are finding situations where closing a contact to ground is the best way to enable a particular tone. The drawings in Chapter 18 only accommodate a open-ground-for-tone function. I've published a simple modification to the schematic that will provide the close-ground-for-tone operation. This same mod can be applied to any of the three generators. http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/Control_Sense_Inversion.pdf Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 22, 2008
Subject: Dimmer trick
From: James H Nelson <rv9jim(at)juno.com>
Carlos, The ADI Tru Trak instrument has a seperate dimmer circuit inside it. It requires a seperate 12v input to make it work. If I remember, by applying the 12v to this wire, it dims the lighting on the instrument. I added a seperate mini toggle along side the instrument that says "dim". Check your wiring schematic for the ADI and I think you will find the input required. I havn't used it as I'm just about to do my first flight. Its been at the airport for about two months while I "put it together" for the last time so I can not tell you how it worked. Jim Nelson N15JN RV9-A ____________________________________________________________ The Two Coreys-New Season Child Stars. Adult Issues. New season of the Two Coreys airs Sundays 1 http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/JKFkuJi7WQr3rI2jU1sRgD264LX2qc79rxhctcWIsJha9dEa2CfXwV/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: Roger Revenson - radios
Date: Jun 22, 2008
Roger, If it's any help, I worked the city here as Antenna system troubleshooter for amateur radio for about 20 years. In almost every problem, the solution turned out to be connectors, and BNC modes in particular, although others were there. The usual cause was homemade connections, not following EXACTLY the instructions or not having the correct tools - (Soldering equipment), such as dripped solder, tiny wires running loose, etc. 9 times of 10, I went to the antenna cable connector and found the fault. For efficiency, I would concentrate on the connector(s) first. I don't want to appear pushy but might suggest getting an old hand from the local radio club interested. They often are intrigued by radio trouble and a second discipline in the think tank is useful. Good luck, Ferg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vernon Little" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net>
Subject: Inverting the sense for warning tone controls/
audio mixer/ stereo music amp
Date: Jun 22, 2008
For those who are not interested in the DIY approach, here's my link to a tone annunciator module that will perform either active high or active low sensing. For fans of Bob's work, there's actually a family of devices inspired by what he's done, updated and packaged as complete products. This includes a 10-channel audio mixer/amp (aka isolation amplifier), a stereo music headphone amplifier and the tone annunciator. For more information: www.vx-aviation.com Thanks, Vern Little -----Original Message----- A number of builders who are incorporating DIY warning tone generators in their projects are finding situations where closing a contact to ground is the best way to enable a particular tone. The drawings in Chapter 18 only accommodate a open-ground-for-tone function. I've published a simple modification to the schematic that will provide the close-ground-for-tone operation. This same mod can be applied to any of the three generators. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Laurence" <PLaurence@the-beach.net>
Subject: Dimmer trick
Date: Jun 22, 2008
Carlos, Try this site. http://www.a-and-t-labs.com/products.htm Peter RV9A N60PL _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Trigo Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 8:08 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dimmer trick Listers I completed my instrument lights circuit, in which I have a dimmer, and all works OK. Nevertheless, when I tested it at night (still at my garage) I noticed that there are a couple of instruments (e.g. the Trutrak ADI) which have a brighter light than the others, and obviously the single dimmer, operating all lights simultaneously, doesn't get me an optimal dimming position for all lights at the same time. Is there a trick to obtain similar brightness in all lights? Can that be achieved by simply installing resistors in the brighter ones? Carlos ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Millivolt Power Source?
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jun 22, 2008
Guys... See: http://www.5bears.com/circuits.htm#Circuit%2001 One op amp and a couple resistors is the right way to do the job. Anything less leaves you at the mercy of....well I shouldn't tell you...you might be scared. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=189142#189142 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 22, 2008
From: Matthew Schumacher <schu(at)schu.net>
Subject: VOR won't show to indication.
List, I'm having some problems with my VOR in my cessna 150 which has the RT328C radio. The problem is that I can't get it to show a to indication. The from indication seems to work and is consistent with what my GPS says so I dial 180* off and the needle kinda centers but the indicator shows off. So far I have pulled the radio and head and had the avionics shop test it and it worked just fine on the bench showing to and from for the generated vor signal, so I figured the problem was the antenna cable. I then replaced the antenna cable with RG400 using the balun shown here: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/BALUN/Balun_Fabrication.html There isn't any connectors or breaks in the cable as it runs directly from the radio up to the tail where the balun and antenna is. My connections are clean so I'm certain that the cable isn't the problem. The AWOS and identifier seem to come though ok, though there is some radio noise. At this point I'm not sure what else to look at. Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks, schu ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave VanLanen" <davevanlanen(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Contactor Diodes
Date: Jun 22, 2008
Bob, I think I mis-stated question 2. What I meant to say was, "why would the spike be stopped by the diode when it could more easily travel through the coil wire directly to the opening switch?" In reading your reply carefully, I believe I might be misunderstanding the actual "flow" of energy in this instance. When you say that the diode is positioned to conduct for any voltage that attempts to go more negative than ground, are you saying that the spike will be conducted through the diode (in the direction of the arrow) and back to the coil, and that this cycle will continue until the resistance of the coil dissipates it? If so, what makes the diode a "preferred" path over the path through the wire to the opening switch? Is this just the nature of a diode? I apologize if I am taking up too much of this venue's resouces in trying to understand this concept. If this is an issue, please let me know and I will try to gain an understanding by finding someone locally to discuss in more detail. Thanks, Dave and 2) Why would the spike be stopped by the diode when it could more easily > travel through the coil wire directly to ground? Don't understand this . . . since the induced voltage caused by coil collapse is negative going at switch when the switch opens, and the diode (a check valve for electron flow) is positioned to conduct for any voltage that attempts to go more negative than ground, the spike current presented at the switch end is indeed shunted to ground and returns to the coil through ground. Virtually ALL the energy stored in the coil's magnetic field is dissipated in THE RESISTANCE OF THE COIL over tens of milliseconds. Review the write up on Kettering ignition system in chapter on OV relays. Kettering's points/coil/ distributor exploited this effect to generate a multi-kilovolt spike from a 6v car battery. Here he WANTED the spike to live long and prosper. In our case, the same kind of spike has deleterious effects on the contacts of the controlling switch. Kettering used 'condenser' to mitigate deleterious effects on points. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Diode Wiring
Date: Jun 23, 2008
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
Just and FYI, I've had my master to eBus B & C diode installed for about 3 weeks. After as much as 8 hours at 10-12 amps, it doesn't even get warm to the touch. I am using #10 wire for the 3 inch jumper with a 15 amp fuse. I have my diode wired to one terminal. At 3 - 9 amps with a heat sink installed you won't even know it's on. On the other hand my Garmin stack is going to make a good cabin heater this winter. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 8:26 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Diode Wiring --> > > > > >Just received the diode assembly from B&C for the main bus to > > >endurance bus wiring. The wiring diagram that came with it shows > > >two of its terminals joined going to the main bus. In the Aero > > >Connection, Bob says only one of the terminals goes to the main bus > > >and the other two can be removed. > > > > > >Please clarify--which is correct? > > > > Flip a coin . . . it doesn't matter much. > > SOMETIMES . . . the two paralleled diodes > > match close enough to sort-of share the > > loads but It's poor practice to depend on > > it. How big are your e-bus loads? > > > > Bob . . . > > >E-BUS loads about 3.5 amps; maximum 9.5. >Roger. Mount the diode to a metal surface, wiring to one diode is sufficient, two diodes doesn't hurt anything. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 23, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Contactor Diodes
>Bob, > >I think I mis-stated question 2. What I meant to say was, why would the >spike be stopped by the diode when it could more easily travel through the >coil wire directly to the opening switch? > >In reading your reply carefully, I believe I might be misunderstanding the >actual flow of energy in this instance. When you say that the diode is >positioned to conduct for any voltage that attempts to go more negative >than ground, are you saying that the spike will be conducted through the >diode (in the direction of the arrow) and back to the coil, and that this >cycle will continue until the resistance of the coil dissipates it? If >so, what makes the diode a preferred path over the path through the wire >to the opening switch? Is this just the nature of a diode? Reactive devices (capacitors and inductors) store energy. Capacitors in terms of the voltage to which they are charged and the value of their capacitance. The quantity of energy stored is J(watt-seconds)=(CE^2)/2 Inductors do the same thing with current where energy stored is J=(LI^2)/2 Capacitors can give up their energy in the form of high current pulses (like shorting a charged capacitor) while inductors are able to produce high voltages (when their magnetic fields are allowed to collapse without restraint). In the case of energy stored on an inductor like a starter or battery contactor coil, the breaking of the energizing circuit allows rapid collapse of the magnetic field within the inductor . . . and if totally unrestrained, can generate short spikes of voltage 300 volts or more. Obviously, this voltage will easily jump the gap in the relatively slow spreading contacts of the controlling switch. So as demonstrated on the bench and subsequent scope traces, a tiny fire is kindled between the spreading contacts and most of the store energy is dissipated in the stoking of that fire . . . with consequences to the surface of the contacts that reduce switch life. The goal is to re-route that energy. There's a host of methodologies, all perform as advertised and as dictated by the physics of their respective capabilities. A simple diode around the coil provides a shunt path for that energy that not only prevents the voltage from building at all, but causes it to dissipate almost totally within the resistance of the subject contactor coil. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/S704-1_Drop-Out_Delay_without_Diode.jpg In views C and D, I show the path of electron flow for an energized contactor and a de-energized contactor. Note that the diode has no conduction in the energized mode (C) but provides an alternate path for electron flow in a tight loop (D) when the circuit is broken. This does cause the magnetic field to decay more slowly than if allowed to collapse unrestrained. A few weeks ago I published a trace that shows how the contactor or relay is delayed in reacting with a diode installed http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/S704-1_Drop-Out_Delay_with_Diode.jpg . . . as opposed to no diode at all: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/S704-1_Drop-Out_Delay_without_Diode.jpg Note in the first trace coil voltage is clamped off at just below ground (.7v diode drop) while in the second trace we see the voltage go WWWAAAaaaayyyy negative. In the second trace, had a fire been allowed to form between the spreading contacts of a switch, the energy dissipated would have removed metal from the contacts. In the first trace, arcing is a tiny fraction of what does happen when the stored energy is not managed. This whole discussion is about improving life of the controlling device with one of several techniques . . . with a simple diode being the simplest and easiest to acquire. >I apologize if I am taking up too much of this venue s resouces in trying >to understand this concept. If this is an issue, please let me know and I >will try to gain an understanding by finding someone locally to discuss in >more detail. This is a classroom, not a country club. New students and teachers come and go with a wide range of knowledge and skills. This venue's resources are dedicated to precisely the needs you have expressed. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 23, 2008
From: "Palvary" <paula.alvary(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Tru Trak ADI
I've noticed several subscribers here use the TruTrak ADI. I once talked with a company rep and I still have questions. I'm hoping some of you here can set me right. I need to find a replacement for my vacuum attitude indicator. I want a dedicated instrument, not an EFIS, and have been vacillating between the TruTrak and the MGL Attitude indicator (AV2/SP4) units. The MGL unit operates exactly like a traditional (absolute angle) attitude indicator and the inertial sensors seem to be very reliable. The TruTrak has a great display and can later be upgraded to an autopilot. However, it has some quirks that make it different from a traditional attitude indicator. >From what I understand, pitch information is only briefly displayed as an absolute angle and mostly is sustained by vertical airspeed information. Consequently, it would be possible, for example, to be flying slowly, pitch up without loosing altitude with the unit showing a level attitude. Maybe I'm too nervous, but if I was in clouds in this attitude I would want to know it. As for bank information, the TruTrak shows rate of change of bank angle, not absolute bank angle. So conceivably, one could be in a forward slip (not turning), but in a constant bank angle with the unit showing level flight. TruTrak says that the device is actually better/safer in the clouds than a conventional attitude inidicator. So my questions are: Do you like andd depend on your TruTrak ADI? Can the TruTrak entirely replace the traditional attitude indicator/horizon? Am I properly understanding how the pitch and bank display operates? --Jose ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Frank Stringham <fstringham(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Battery Question?
Date: Jun 23, 2008
Hi all Got a problem with my Odyssey 680 battery. It will not keep a charge. I am wired per Z13/8. Master and Endurance switches off. At first I thought the trickle from the Dynon 100 was the problem so I pull ed the trickle fuse from the battery bus. No joy!! so i pulled the fuse for the Dynon D100....No Joy. Pulled the main alternator CB...still no joy. Pu lled the the Aux (SD8 self excitation) alternator CB ..again no joy. I have checked all the various circuits on the fuse block (endurance/main) for a ny stray energy loss. My last idea is to charge the battery up again. Pull the ground from the ba ttery. Let it set a few days. Put the ground back on and check to see if it has lost amps..........If this is the case I would say I have a bad cell o r two in the battery. Any other ideas out there would be appreciated! Frank @ 1L8....RV7A...Last 949 details. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 23, 2008
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Inverting the sense for warning tone controls/
audio mixer/ stereo music amp Vernon Little wrote: > > For those who are not interested in the DIY approach, here's my link to a > tone annunciator module that will perform either active high or active low > sensing. For fans of Bob's work, there's actually a family of devices > inspired by what he's done, updated and packaged as complete products. This > includes a 10-channel audio mixer/amp (aka isolation amplifier), a stereo > music headphone amplifier and the tone annunciator. > > For more information: > www.vx-aviation.com > > Vernon, I tried to look at your website, but nothing displays. Is it working? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 23, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Battery Question?
> >Hi all > >Got a problem with my Odyssey 680 battery. It will not keep a charge. I am >wired per Z13/8. Master and Endurance switches off. >At first I thought the trickle from the Dynon 100 was the problem so I >pulled the trickle fuse from the battery bus. No joy!! so i pulled the >fuse for the Dynon D100....No Joy. Pulled the main alternator CB...still >no joy. Pulled the the Aux (SD8 self excitation) alternator CB ..again no >joy. I have checked all the various circuits on the fuse block >(endurance/main) for any stray energy loss. >My last idea is to charge the battery up again. Pull the ground from the >battery. Let it set a few days. Put the ground back on and check to see if >it has lost amps..........If this is the case I would say I have a bad >cell or two in the battery. > >Any other ideas out there would be appreciated! You've already done most of what I would suggest. I suspect the final experiment of leaving it disconnected for a few days will not yield a happily useful result . . . I'm betting the battery has some problems. I'm presuming that you KNOW the bus voltage in flight is such that you can EXPECT the battery to be fully charged when you park the airplane(?). Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 23, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject:
Was running low on AA cells and spotted a 36-pak of Ray-o-Vac on the shelves at Home Depot for about 0.31 per cell. Snatched up a package and put one of the little beasties on the battery-runner-downer-machine. The results are plotted at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/AA_Battery_Tests_80622.jpg Seems this $low$ product is quite a bargain and contains more energy than most devices of the type. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tony Babb" <tonybabb(at)alejandra.net>
Subject: Inverting the sense for warning tone controls/
audio mixer/ stereo music amp
Date: Jun 23, 2008
It works for me. I'm using Win2K with IE7. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Christley Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 11:41 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Inverting the sense for warning tone controls/ audio mixer/ stereo music amp --> Vernon Little wrote: > --> > > For those who are not interested in the DIY approach, here's my link > to a tone annunciator module that will perform either active high or > active low sensing. For fans of Bob's work, there's actually a family > of devices inspired by what he's done, updated and packaged as > complete products. This includes a 10-channel audio mixer/amp (aka > isolation amplifier), a stereo music headphone amplifier and the tone > annunciator. > > For more information: > www.vx-aviation.com > > Vernon, I tried to look at your website, but nothing displays. Is it working? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike" <mlas(at)cox.net>
Subject: Tru Trak ADI
Date: Jun 23, 2008
Jose, I will give you my best understanding of the Trutrak ADI vs. a standard attitude indicator. I have flown several that have the Trutrak ADI but I have not proactively used it (most of these airplanes had and EFIS or other primary instrument system). The Trutrak ADI seems easy to use but I don=92t know how well it would work as a primary unit for say being vectored of flying instrument transitions. I think the Trutrak ADI was designed to be a backup unit that would help you keep the dirty side down and still have confidence in flying vs. a turn and bank or turn coordinator. The roll information on the TT ADI is direct roll angle up to 45deg of zero, after that you have direction arrows. Most new attitude indicators will roll 360 degrees. Pitch on the TT ADI is direct pitch when not near level. When you near level it uses static information to figure vertical speed. This helps hold altitude without the use of an altimeter. As for you thought about the slip scenario, the unit shows angle not rate, so you would see that bank angle. Q1-A. I would only use it as a backup. Q2-A. Mostly no! It is limited to 45deg of bank and about 15 deg of pitch and requires functioning pitot static. The unit is not certified to any standard but I think it would make a good back-up. Q3-A. Explained above! Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Palvary Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 7:31 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tru Trak ADI I've noticed several subscribers here use the TruTrak ADI. I once talked with a company rep and I still have questions. I'm hoping some of you here can set me right. I need to find a replacement for my vacuum attitude indicator. I want a dedicated instrument, not an EFIS, and have been vacillating between the TruTrak and the MGL Attitude indicator (AV2/SP4) units. The MGL unit operates exactly like a traditional (absolute angle) attitude indicator and the inertial sensors seem to be very reliable. The TruTrak has a great display and can later be upgraded to an autopilot. However, it has some quirks that make it different from a traditional attitude indicator. >From what I understand, pitch information is only briefly displayed as an absolute angle and mostly is sustained by vertical airspeed information. Consequently, it would be possible, for example, to be flying slowly, pitch up without loosing altitude with the unit showing a level attitude. Maybe I'm too nervous, but if I was in clouds in this attitude I would want to know it. As for bank information, the TruTrak shows rate of change of bank angle, not absolute bank angle. So conceivably, one could be in a forward slip (not turning), but in a constant bank angle with the unit showing level flight. TruTrak says that the device is actually better/safer in the clouds than a conventional attitude inidicator. So my questions are: Do you like andd depend on your TruTrak ADI? Can the TruTrak entirely replace the traditional attitude indicator/horizon? Am I properly understanding how the pitch and bank display operates? --Jose "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribu tion 10/2/2007 11:10 AM 10/2/2007 11:10 AM ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 23, 2008
From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Battery Question?
-----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 2:41 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery Question? > >Hi all > >Got a problem with my Odyssey 680 battery. It will not keep a charge. I am >wired per Z13/8. Master and Endurance switches off. >At first I thought the trickle from the Dynon 100 was the problem so I >pulled the trickle fuse from the battery bus. No joy!! so i pulled the >fuse for the Dynon D100....No Joy. Pulled the main alternator CB...still >no joy. Pulled the the Aux (SD8 self excitation) alternator CB ..again no >joy. I have checked all the various circuits on the fuse block >(endurance/main) for any stray energy loss. >My last idea is to charge the battery up again. Pull the ground from the >battery. Let it set a few days. Put the ground back on and check to see if >it has lost amps..........If this is the case I would say I have a bad >cell or two in the battery. > >Any other ideas out there would be appreciated! You've already done most of what I would suggest. I suspect the final experiment of leaving it disconnected for a few days will not yield a happily useful result . . . I'm betting the battery has some problems. I'm presuming that you KNOW the bus voltage in flight is such that you can EXPECT the battery to be fully charged when you park the airplane(?). Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- If you pull one of the fat wires off the battery and check the current flow this will tell you if it is the battery or if you have an overlooked current flow somewhere in your wiring. Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Tru Trak ADI
Date: Jun 23, 2008
From: "Glaeser, Dennis A" <dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com>
I have an ADI Pilot II as my autopilot and attitude backup for my GRT Sport. It operates as you noted below regarding pitch and bank in those unusual situations. It is not a true 'attitude' indicator, it tells you what the airplane is doing with respect to altitude and heading. I find it very easy to use to control the plane (which is the ultimate requirement). I only have 50 hours on my plane, but TT has a great reputation for dependability. I'm a CFII, and using an ADI as the primary attitude instrument would require a bit of adjustment due to the special situations you've noted, however after a few hours of use I'd bet you would be quite comfortable with it. If you didn't recognize that you were flying slowly, or in a slip/skid situation, I'd contend that the instruments you're looking at are not the big problem :-) Hopefully you can find someone nearby that has an ADI that you can see and maybe even fly. Dennis Glaeser RV7A ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - I've noticed several subscribers here use the TruTrak ADI. I once talked with a company rep and I still have questions. I'm hoping some of you here can set me right. I need to find a replacement for my vacuum attitude indicator. I want a dedicated instrument, not an EFIS, and have been vacillating between the TruTrak and the MGL Attitude indicator (AV2/SP4) units. The MGL unit operates exactly like a traditional (absolute angle) attitude indicator and the inertial sensors seem to be very reliable. The TruTrak has a great display and can later be upgraded to an autopilot. However, it has some quirks that make it different from a traditional attitude indicator. >From what I understand, pitch information is only briefly displayed as an absolute angle and mostly is sustained by vertical airspeed information. Consequently, it would be possible, for example, to be flying slowly, pitch up without loosing altitude with the unit showing a level attitude. Maybe I'm too nervous, but if I was in clouds in this attitude I would want to know it. As for bank information, the TruTrak shows rate of change of bank angle, not absolute bank angle. So conceivably, one could be in a forward slip (not turning), but in a constant bank angle with the unit showing level flight. TruTrak says that the device is actually better/safer in the clouds than a conventional attitude inidicator. So my questions are: Do you like andd depend on your TruTrak ADI? Can the TruTrak entirely replace the traditional attitude indicator/horizon? Am I properly understanding how the pitch and bank display operates? --Jose ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 23, 2008
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Re: Inverting the sense for warning tone controls/
audio mixer/ stereo music amp Works OK with XP and Firefox 3 as well... Harley ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Tony Babb wrote: > > It works for me. I'm using Win2K with IE7. > > For more information: > www.vx-aviation.com > > > > Vernon, I tried to look at your website, but nothing displays. Is it > working? > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Valovich, Paul" <pvalovich(at)dcscorp.com>
Date: Jun 23, 2008
Subject: Dual Comm Antenna Spacing
RV-8A with 2 comm radios - SL30 and an ICOM. Two Comant bent whip antennas on the bottom aft of the wing, one on each side. Aft one is positioned just aft of forward antenna tip. One of my buddies says they're too close toget her - that transmit on one will fry the other. Is he correct? What is the a ccepted / minimum spacing? Paul Valovich N192NM Reserved - Again ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Dual Comm Antenna Spacing
Date: Jun 23, 2008
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
Paul, I have two com antennas inside the fuselage about 12" apart. They perform very well together. Yours are on opposite wings. Comant say's 36" as general practice Take a read on their website. There are a few exceptions, but you should be safe. http://www.comant.com/htmls/guide2.html -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valovich, Paul Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 4:19 PM To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dual Comm Antenna Spacing RV-8A with 2 comm radios - SL30 and an ICOM. Two Comant bent whip antennas on the bottom aft of the wing, one on each side. Aft one is positioned just aft of forward antenna tip. One of my buddies says they're too close together - that transmit on one will fry the other. Is he correct? What is the accepted / minimum spacing? Paul Valovich N192NM Reserved - Again ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Dimmer trick
From: "N601RT" <N601RT(at)comcast.net>
Date: Jun 23, 2008
Carlos, My ADI is on a dimmer circuit with several NuLites and an internally lit Garmin GI-106A. The ADI was initially too bright relative to the other instruments. I moved the dimmer wire from the +12V dimmer input (pin 3) to the +24V dimmer input and found the 'balance' and tracking between the ADI illumination and the illumination of the other instruments on the circuit to be much better. This does require having max brightness during the day for reading the ADI display. Regards, Roy N601RT: CH601HDS, nose gear, Rotax 912ULS, All electric, IFR equipped, 990hrs Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=189445#189445 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joe" <fran5sew(at)banyanol.com>
Subject: Re: Contactor Diodes
Date: Jun 23, 2008
Dave, When battery power is removed from a coil by opening a switch, the coil now becomes a power source and tries to keep the current flowing through itself in same direction that it was flowing before the switch was opened. Current that leaves a source wants to return to that same source (but to the terminal of opposite polarity) by easiest path possible. Although the diode blocked current flow from the battery, the polarity of the current generated by the coil is such that the diode easily conducts it (as long as the voltage is above approximately 1 volt). The majority of the coil-generated current will find it much easier to travel through the short path of the diode to get back to the other end of the coil, rather than through the air between the opening contacts of the switch. The above events only last for a fraction of a second. It might be easier to understand if one uses a water analogy. Suppose there is a water pump instead of a battery, pipes instead of wires, coiled tubing instead of a contactor coil, valves instead of switches, and a check valve instead of a diode. If the pump were running and valves were suddenly closed on each side of the coil of tubing, the momentum of the water flowing through the coil of tubing would want to keep that water flowing in the same direction. The check valve would give the water an easy path to keep water flowing in the same direction from the outlet of the tubing back to the inlet of the tubing, much easier than trying to go through a closed valve. In a short time, the energy would be spent and the water would stop flowing. I hope that helps. Joe Gores ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 23, 2008
From: "Robert Feldtman" <bobf(at)feldtman.com>
Subject: Re: Contactor Diodes
you must be a teacher! this is excellent bobf On 6/23/08, Joe wrote: > > Dave, > > When battery power is removed from a coil by opening a switch, the > coil now becomes a power source and tries to keep the current flowing > through itself in same direction that it was flowing before the switch was > opened. Current that leaves a source wants to return to that same source > (but to the terminal of opposite polarity) by easiest path possible. Although > the diode blocked current flow from the battery, the polarity of the current > generated by the coil is such that the diode easily conducts it (as long as > the voltage is above approximately 1 volt). The majority of the > coil-generated current will find it much easier to travel through the short > path of the diode to get back to the other end of the coil, rather than > through the air between the opening contacts of the switch. The above > events only last for a fraction of a second. > > It might be easier to understand if one uses a water analogy. Suppose > there is a water pump instead of a battery, pipes instead of wires, coiled > tubing instead of a contactor coil, valves instead of switches, and a check > valve instead of a diode. If the pump were running and valves were > suddenly closed on each side of the coil of tubing, the momentum of the > water flowing through the coil of tubing would want to keep that water > flowing in the same direction. The check valve would give the water an > easy path to keep water flowing in the same direction from the outlet of the > tubing back to the inlet of the tubing, much easier than trying to go > through a closed valve. In a short time, the energy would be spent and the > water would stop flowing. > > I hope that helps. > > Joe Gores > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Joemotis(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 24, 2008
Subject: Re: Contactor Diodes
You win the internet! Great example. Thanks joe no archivos hombre!! **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vernon Little" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net>
Subject: Inverting the sense for warning tone controls/
audio mixer/ stereo music amp
Date: Jun 23, 2008
Not sure what your situation is, but the only other complaint I had was when the user missed the dash "-" in the link. Try again, it looks like other users are connecting fine. Thanks, Vern -----Original Message ----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Harley Sent: June 23, 2008 1:16 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Inverting the sense for warning tone controls/ audio mixer/ stereo music amp Works OK with XP and Firefox 3 as well... Harley _____ Tony Babb wrote: It works for me. I'm using Win2K with IE7. For more information: www.vx-aviation.com Vernon, I tried to look at your website, but nothing displays. Is it working? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Intermittent duty contactor value
Date: Jun 24, 2008
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
Last week I bought a new "Made in the USA" intermittent duty contactor from Lancair (Aerocraft Parts) for $2.50. I haven't shopped them lot, but that seemed like a good value. Like everyone else they charge shipping. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 24, 2008
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Inverting the sense for warning tone controls/
audio mixer/ stereo music amp Vernon Little wrote: > Not sure what your situation is, but the only other complaint I had was when > the user missed the dash "-" in the link. > Try again, it looks like other users are connecting fine. > I think we were having some network problems yesterday. Later in the day, there were several other sites that wouldn't load. Everything is hunky-dory today.....Go figure. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: " Peter Laurence" <Dr.Laurence(at)mbdi.org>
Subject: Re: Battery Capacity tester
Date: Jun 24, 2008
Re: Contactor DiodesBob, Last Nov or so you were developing a battery capacity tester that would utilize the e bus. Status ? Peter ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Johnson" <pinetownd(at)volcano.net>
Subject: TruTrak ADI
Date: Jun 24, 2008
Hi Jose, I have a 2.25" TruTrak ADI as backup for my Chelton displays. My little 2.25" ADI is small and if I planned to use it as the primary attitude source, I'd definitely want the full size 3.125" version. One interesting feature is that if you connect it to a GPS, it will display track (heading). I don't have a GPS connected to mine and can't comment on that feature, except that I think it would be useful. Before flying in IMC, I went up in clear weather with a safety pilot and flew simulated instruments using only my backups: 2.25" instruments for airspeed indicator, altimeter, and TruTrak ADI and a handheld Garmin 196 GPS. I flew straight and level, holding patterns, and non-precision approaches. It moves differently than a traditional mechanical attitude indicator, which was a little distracting at first. But after a couple of minutes, I adjusted to it and had no trouble flying the airplane with it as my sole attitude reference. I'm confident that I could safely get the airplane on the ground if my primary system failed. I didn't practice recovery from unusual attitudes, but I expect that wouldn't be a problem. If you exceed 45=B0 of bank, it displays a big red arrow showing you which way to roll to get the wings level. If you hold the nose up and bleed off airspeed, it flashes a low airspeed warning to tell you to lower the nose and/or add power. If I had more room on my panel, I'd like to have the full size ADI instead of the small one. The small one works fine, it's just that a larger display would be easier on my eyes. But I don't have the room, so there's no point going down that road. I'm very satisfied with the ADI and thinks it gives me good value. It costs much less than a mechanical attitude indicator and might have a longer life because of fewer moving parts. It's also lighter and easier to install. Some people believe that if your primary instruments are all electronic, like mine, your backup instruments should use a different technology so that a single event is unlikely to take out both the primary and backup instruments. Good luck, Dennis ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com>
Subject: Need a to-220 connector
Date: Jun 24, 2008
Bob, etc all. I need to use to TO-220 LM7812C as a simple voltage regulator to take 24V to 12V for a Bob Archer Antenna switch. No problems with the circuit, the current is small enough (<10ma) that I don't need any additional parts or heatshrink. But I did want to make it such that I could replace the lm7812 without having to solder and unsolder.... Yes I could solder and connector the who regulator, but I thot... Hmm, wonder if the legs of the to-220 part would fit in regular DB25 female pins and yep, they do, pretty much like the male pin would with just a smidge of snugness (new word btw)... If I use heatshrink to keep this all together, does anyone see any issue with using these 3 pins as a simple "to-220 socket"? I'd crimp up the wires to the 3 db25 pins, heatshrink them full length, then slide them on the to-220 and heatshrink it as a unit to the 3 pin wires. Tuck it away and hope I never have to deal with it, but if I do, cut some heatshrink, replace the lm7812 and re-heatshrink. Let me know your thots please... Thanks, Alan Adamson Atlanta, GA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 2008
From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Need a to-220 connector
Alan, Looks like an excellent way to connect, I would do it that way. You are essentially putting a square pin (LM7812) into a round hole, but, the "smidge of snugness" will give you a good secure connection. If, at a later date, say 20 years from now, you have a problem with it, you still have the option of solder. Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan K. Adamson Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Need a to-220 connector Bob, etc all. I need to use to TO-220 LM7812C as a simple voltage regulator to take 24V to 12V for a Bob Archer Antenna switch. No problems with the circuit, the current is small enough (<10ma) that I don't need any additional parts or heatshrink. But I did want to make it such that I could replace the lm7812 without having to solder and unsolder.... Yes I could solder and connector the who regulator, but I thot... Hmm, wonder if the legs of the to-220 part would fit in regular DB25 female pins and yep, they do, pretty much like the male pin would with just a smidge of snugness (new word btw)... If I use heatshrink to keep this all together, does anyone see any issue with using these 3 pins as a simple "to-220 socket"? I'd crimp up the wires to the 3 db25 pins, heatshrink them full length, then slide them on the to-220 and heatshrink it as a unit to the 3 pin wires. Tuck it away and hope I never have to deal with it, but if I do, cut some heatshrink, replace the lm7812 and re-heatshrink. Let me know your thots please... Thanks, Alan Adamson Atlanta, GA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rob Turk" <matronics(at)rtist.nl>
Subject: Re: Need a to-220 connector
Date: Jun 25, 2008
In general I'd not use a connector at all for this purpose. But if you want to have a connector for this, why not use a 3-pin connector with the same pin distance? Check out those 3-pin connectors that you find on computer fans. They are designed to take flat pins and take a lot less space. Do try to find a good quality connector for this so it doesn't develop problems with corrosion. Especially the ground pin is critical, if it loses contact your switch will get 24V direct. Rob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 3:18 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Need a to-220 connector > > > Bob, etc all. > > I need to use to TO-220 LM7812C as a simple voltage regulator to take 24V > to > 12V for a Bob Archer Antenna switch. > > No problems with the circuit, the current is small enough (<10ma) that I > don't need any additional parts or heatshrink. But I did want to make it > such that I could replace the lm7812 without having to solder and > unsolder.... Yes I could solder and connector the who regulator, but I > thot... Hmm, wonder if the legs of the to-220 part would fit in regular > DB25 > female pins and yep, they do, pretty much like the male pin would with > just > a smidge of snugness (new word btw)... > > If I use heatshrink to keep this all together, does anyone see any issue > with using these 3 pins as a simple "to-220 socket"? I'd crimp up the > wires > to the 3 db25 pins, heatshrink them full length, then slide them on the > to-220 and heatshrink it as a unit to the 3 pin wires. Tuck it away and > hope I never have to deal with it, but if I do, cut some heatshrink, > replace > the lm7812 and re-heatshrink. > > Let me know your thots please... > > Thanks, > Alan Adamson > Atlanta, GA > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Need a to-220 connector
> > >Bob, etc all. > >I need to use to TO-220 LM7812C as a simple voltage regulator to take 24V to >12V for a Bob Archer Antenna switch. > >No problems with the circuit, the current is small enough (<10ma) that I >don't need any additional parts or heatshrink. But I did want to make it >such that I could replace the lm7812 without having to solder and >unsolder.... Yes I could solder and connector the who regulator, but I >thot... Hmm, wonder if the legs of the to-220 part would fit in regular DB25 >female pins and yep, they do, pretty much like the male pin would with just >a smidge of snugness (new word btw)... Hmmmm . . . the LM7812 series devices are not guaranteed "stable" without a couple of capacitors from input and output to ground. >If I use heatshrink to keep this all together, does anyone see any issue >with using these 3 pins as a simple "to-220 socket"? I'd crimp up the wires >to the 3 db25 pins, heatshrink them full length, then slide them on the >to-220 and heatshrink it as a unit to the 3 pin wires. Tuck it away and >hope I never have to deal with it, but if I do, cut some heatshrink, replace >the lm7812 and re-heatshrink. > >Let me know your thots please... For such a tiny amount of current, how about wiring a 1N4742 zener in series with the switch. Doesn't need capacitors. You can splice the zener into the switch's feed-wire with techniques illustrated in . . . http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Homeless/Homeless_Components.htm Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com>
Subject: Need a to-220 connector
Date: Jun 25, 2008
Thanks all for the comments, the one about the computer fans is an especially good one... Ok, now I need a bit of an education... Bob, the Zener, will that step the voltage down from 24v to 12v? That's all I really need is a reliable 12V out of 24v. The data sheet on the LM7812C suggested that it didn't need any other components, but I'm always open to better solutions and if the Zener will do it, then I'm all for that. Thanks Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 8:21 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need a to-220 connector --> > > >Bob, etc all. > >I need to use to TO-220 LM7812C as a simple voltage regulator to take >24V to 12V for a Bob Archer Antenna switch. > >No problems with the circuit, the current is small enough (<10ma) that >I don't need any additional parts or heatshrink. But I did want to >make it such that I could replace the lm7812 without having to solder >and unsolder.... Yes I could solder and connector the who regulator, >but I thot... Hmm, wonder if the legs of the to-220 part would fit in >regular DB25 female pins and yep, they do, pretty much like the male >pin would with just a smidge of snugness (new word btw)... Hmmmm . . . the LM7812 series devices are not guaranteed "stable" without a couple of capacitors from input and output to ground. >If I use heatshrink to keep this all together, does anyone see any >issue with using these 3 pins as a simple "to-220 socket"? I'd crimp >up the wires to the 3 db25 pins, heatshrink them full length, then >slide them on the to-220 and heatshrink it as a unit to the 3 pin >wires. Tuck it away and hope I never have to deal with it, but if I >do, cut some heatshrink, replace the lm7812 and re-heatshrink. > >Let me know your thots please... For such a tiny amount of current, how about wiring a 1N4742 zener in series with the switch. Doesn't need capacitors. You can splice the zener into the switch's feed-wire with techniques illustrated in . . . http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Homeless/Homeless_Components.htm Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jim Piavis <jpiavis(at)microsoft.com>
Date: Jun 25, 2008
Subject: 90-deg. Crimp BNC Connectors
What's the correct way to crimp the 90-degree BNC connectors? I'm not refer encing the 90-deg. type that requires soldering, but the crimps. I need to install a couple and just want to make sure I'm doing it right. The straigh t ones are no problem but the 90's a bit different. Thanks, Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Need a to-220 connector
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 25, 2008
Another connector solution is to use quality connector machined crimp pins on the three leads with mating gender crimp pins on the wiring. Very thin heat shrink on the bare leads and exposed wires. Heat shrink over the mated connections, then a wide piece over the regulator and the whole set of connections. I agree with Bob regarding the stability (e.g. oscillations) of the 78/7900 family without the input bypass cap and the output filter cap. Are you very sure that the Archer thingy will object to 24V? If you have not done so, try calling them to find out. I'm not an EE, I just played one through 4 years of grad school :-) -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=189805#189805 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 90-deg. Crimp BNC Connectors
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 25, 2008
You can download the exact directions with pictures and strip lengths from most connector manufacturers. The strip lengths may vary depending on the coax you use. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=189806#189806 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com>
Subject: Re: Need a to-220 connector
Date: Jun 25, 2008
Yep, I'm sure, the TR switch won't work with 24v, it's got relays that switch when the intercomm says one radio or the other is active. I picked up the Zener as mentioned, but I'm still unclear, it's it just in series with the switch, in the 24V line and it magically limits (drops) the voltage to 12v? What a great solution for small current needs if that assumption is true. The Zeners that I have are good to 1A, what is the max current you could expect one to operate as a voltage limiter (regulator) I might have one other item that could use the same thing, but I think it draws more like 500mils Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rampil Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 5:16 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Need a to-220 connector Another connector solution is to use quality connector machined crimp pins on the three leads with mating gender crimp pins on the wiring. Very thin heat shrink on the bare leads and exposed wires. Heat shrink over the mated connections, then a wide piece over the regulator and the whole set of connections. I agree with Bob regarding the stability (e.g. oscillations) of the 78/7900 family without the input bypass cap and the output filter cap. Are you very sure that the Archer thingy will object to 24V? If you have not done so, try calling them to find out. I'm not an EE, I just played one through 4 years of grad school :-) -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=189805#189805 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 2008
From: Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: Need a to-220 connector
The zener does NOT drop 24V to 12V. It subtracts whatever the zener rating is from whatever the higher voltage is. If you truly have 24V (more likely 28V if the "24V" is the alternator supply), then it would work fine. However, if the situation is that you have a 28V supply from your alternator, then the zener will subtract from that and you will have not 12V but 16V - possibly outside of the allowable tolerance of the TR switch. The LM7812 does need capacitors for stability, but will supply 12 regardless of the input voltage (until you exceed its ratings). You could use the zener Bob suggests in a slightly different way to get the 12V you want. If you truly need less than 10mA, you can use a resistor in series with a 12V (1N4742) zener and tap off the voltage you need across the 12V zener. Use a 620 ohm, 0.5W (or greater) resistor. This wastes about 10mA more than if you used an LM7812, but there is no need for capacitors. Crude schematic follows (use fixed with font to see it): 24V ----RRRR-------ZZZZ---- GND | |< | 12V GND | | To TR Switch By the way, if you do decide to use an LM7812, I wouldn't worry about soldering it in. With the minimal load you will be drawing, I suspect it will still be going strong long after your plane turns to dust... Dick Tasker Alan Adamson wrote: > > Yep, I'm sure, the TR switch won't work with 24v, it's got relays that > switch when the intercomm says one radio or the other is active. > > I picked up the Zener as mentioned, but I'm still unclear, it's it just in > series with the switch, in the 24V line and it magically limits (drops) the > voltage to 12v? What a great solution for small current needs if that > assumption is true. The Zeners that I have are good to 1A, what is the max > current you could expect one to operate as a voltage limiter (regulator) I > might have one other item that could use the same thing, but I think it > draws more like 500mils > > Alan > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rampil > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 5:16 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Need a to-220 connector > > > Another connector solution is to use quality connector machined crimp pins > on the three leads with mating gender crimp pins on the wiring. > Very thin heat shrink on the bare leads and exposed wires. Heat shrink over > the mated connections, then a wide piece over the regulator and the whole > set of connections. > > I agree with Bob regarding the stability (e.g. oscillations) of the 78/7900 > family without the input bypass cap and the output filter cap. > > Are you very sure that the Archer thingy will object to 24V? If you have > not done so, try calling them to find out. > > > I'm not an EE, I just played one through 4 years of grad school :-) > > -------- > Ira N224XS > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=189805#189805 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Need a to-220 connector
> >Thanks all for the comments, the one about the computer fans is an >especially good one... > >Ok, now I need a bit of an education... Bob, the Zener, will that step the >voltage down from 24v to 12v? > >That's all I really need is a reliable 12V out of 24v. The data sheet on >the LM7812C suggested that it didn't need any other components . . . If you look at the typical application schematics in the last pages of . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Semiconductors/LM7812.pdf . . . you will see capacitors to ground on both the input and output leads of the device. These critters can go into oscillation at rather high frequencies when they resonate with ship's wiring. > but I'm >always open to better solutions and if the Zener will do it, then I'm all >for that. The zener inserts a constant 12V DROP in the supply voltage 24 becomes 12, 28 becomes 16, etc. The 7812 is a good choice. I'd SOLDER leads to input and output leads. Solder the smallest capacitors you can find directly to the leads of the device. Epoxy the caps to the regulator. Use same epoxy to beef up lead wires. Bolt the device right to structure for grounding. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: off line for a few days . . .
Dr. Dee and I are off to visit my sister in Cincinnati over the weekend. Have a client to visit in Chicago on Monday. Will be back late Tuesday night. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 26, 2008
From: "Palvary" <paula.alvary(at)verizon.net>
Subject: TruTrak ADI
Dennis, Dennis, and Mike, Thanks very much for your user reports. The instrument does offer great value, but now I'm not sure it is what I want. The Tru Trak ADI has a novel way of helping the pilot hold proper attitude in IMC. Supposedly there are human factors studies indicating that it is a better way than just the traditional horizon indicator. From what I can see, though, the device is simply putting in one convenient unit the turn coordinator , vertical speed indicator and GPS track....devices I already have on my panel. I think the suggestion to fly one first hand is the way to go for me because I'm being old fashioned and believing I will miss the true attitude indicator. --Jose ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Pengilly" <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Subject: TruTrak ADI
Date: Jun 26, 2008
Jose, I have had an ADI for a couple of years. Mine has an integral GPS, so the display shows track ' that was the original reason for getting it, as well as my T&B started to sound like a coffee grinder. When you get slow the display alternately shows =93A_S=94 (for airspeed) and the track number, to remind you to look at the ASI (the theory being the ASI gives better information at slow speed). The speed when the AS is shown can be set by the user. I think it does much more than combine the 3 instruments you mention, when you are flying normally in the cruise it allows you to keep the aircraft in control, on track, and pretty much on altitude by reference to one instrument. Clearly reference must be made to an altimeter for accurate height keeping. I installed the instrument as an IMC back-up in a VFR airplane, and I am very happy with it, it is quite intuitive to use. I have some hood time with it, but no actual. If you are wanting to replace an attitude indicator, then I would suggest you definitely should try one out first. It may suit your needs, it may not. Also, the package is square and a fair amount larger than a regular instrument (perhaps 3=BD=93 square?), with a 9 pin d-sub + pitot pressure on the back, so make sure you have sufficient space behind the panel. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Palvary Sent: 26 June 2008 20:46 Subject: AeroElectric-List: TruTrak ADI Dennis, Dennis, and Mike, Thanks very much for your user reports. The instrument does offer great value, but now I'm not sure it is what I want. The Tru Trak ADI has a novel way of helping the pilot hold proper attitude in IMC. Supposedly there are human factors studies indicating that it is a better way than just the traditional horizon indicator. From what I can see, though, the device is simply putting in one convenient unit the turn coordinator , vertical speed indicator and GPS track....devices I already have on my panel. I think the suggestion to fly one first hand is the way to go for me because I'm being old fashioned and believing I will miss the true attitude indicator. --Jose ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vernon Little" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net>
Subject: Audio Mixer'Iso Amp, Stereo Music Adaptor and Tone
Annunciator
Date: Jun 26, 2008
This information was buried in another thread, so I've pulled it out as a stand alone announcement: =============================================== Vx Aviation Introduces Three New Audio Products 10-Channel Mixer, Stereo Music Adapter and Tone Annunciator VANCOUVER, BC---June 21, 2008---Vx Aviation today at the 2008 Langley BC RV and Classic Fly-In announced the introduction of three innovative products for non-certified aircraft applications that add new capability and dramatically simplify and lower the cost of audio system installation. The products include the AMX-2A 10-channel audio mixer, the ASX-2A high-fidelity stereo music adapter and the AL-1A tone annunciator device. All three products work seamlessly with virtually all intercoms, audio panels, radios and other aircraft audio devices. All three are packaged in D-subminiature connector shells, thus making them extremely compact and light. For more information www.vx-aviation.com =============================================== If you are familiar with Bob's isolation amplifier and tone generator, you'll see a vague family resemblance. The miniaturization is due to a large part by using more advanced integrated circuits and components specifically designed for "height challenged" packaging. The 10-channel audio mixer is a real problem solver if you are using an intercom and need to connect a bunch of audio sources. The stereo music amplifier is self-explanatory and the tone annunciator replaces those annoying sonalerts or easy to overlook lamps with a somewhat less annoying beeping tone in your headphones. One thing worth noting about these devices: There are no exotic components or embedded software used. Years from now, if they ever need to be serviced, any competent electronics tech can do it. Something to think about when you consider using gee-whiz new gizmos in you're a/c. Thanks, Vern Little ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson(at)highrf.com>
Subject: EL Lighting
Date: Jun 26, 2008
Ok, so the docs on the UMA EL lighting says to twist the wires on the AC wiring for 8 turns per inch... Ok, but has anyone used shielded wire? I'm wondering if there is an advantage to using a 2 conductor shielded tefzel wire (which is twisted internally) and then just ground the shield at one end. Will it be any better or worse than just twisting the 2 wires - unshielded that UMA gives you? For those that don't know, the EL lights use AC (around 100V) to cause the lights to glow, it's low current, but AC and I'd just as soon limit any source for Hmmmmmmmm... Thots? Alan ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: S811-1 B&C Starter Contactor
From: "ianwilson2" <ianwilson2(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Jun 27, 2008
I'm using the B&C Starter Contactor with my Jab 2200 and as a newbie I have what is probably a dumb question, but I'd rather look dumb than be sorry! On the Starter Contactor the 2 large studs aren't marked in any way. Am I therefore safe in deducing that it doesn't matter which one I attach to the battery input and starter motor? The third smaller stud connects to the push-to-start button. The more questions I ask, the more I learn and the less I need to ask! Many thanks in advance. Ian Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=190044#190044 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dale Ensing" <densing(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: S811-1 B&C Starter Contactor
Date: Jun 27, 2008
Ian, think of the starter contactor as just a large switch that is remotely operated by electrical power. Electrical current can flow in either direction thru the contacts of the contactor (switch). Dale ----- Original Message ----- From: "ianwilson2" <ianwilson2(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 3:11 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: S811-1 B&C Starter Contactor > > > I'm using the B&C Starter Contactor with my Jab 2200 and as a newbie I > have what is probably a dumb question, but I'd rather look dumb than be > sorry! > > On the Starter Contactor the 2 large studs aren't marked in any way. Am I > therefore safe in deducing that it doesn't matter which one I attach to > the battery input and starter motor? The third smaller stud connects to > the push-to-start button. > > The more questions I ask, the more I learn and the less I need to ask! > > Many thanks in advance. > > Ian > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=190044#190044 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Andrew Butler" <andrewbutler(at)ireland.com>
Date: Jun 27, 2008
Subject: Grip Flap Motor Control
Hello, Can anyone give me some pointers on how I may use the trim buttons in my Ray Allen to control my flap motor (I am not going to use the two buttons normally used for electic aileron trim control). I am making the assumption that the current draw of the flap motor is too great to wire through the grip directly and that relays are the order of the day. I just can't come up with an elegent enough wiring solution. Best regards, Andrew Butler RV71700 Galway, Ireland. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ivor Phillips" <ivor.phillips(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Grip Flap Motor Control
Date: Jun 27, 2008
Hi Andrew If you make up a relay deck as http://www.rayallencompany.com/RACmedia/do-it-urself1servorelays.pdf It should work ok, Just make sure the relays can draw the max amps of the flap motor Regards Ivor Phillips -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Butler Sent: 27 June 2008 12:03 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Grip Flap Motor Control Hello, Can anyone give me some pointers on how I may use the trim buttons in my Ray Allen to control my flap motor (I am not going to use the two buttons normally used for electic aileron trim control). I am making the assumption that the current draw of the flap motor is too great to wire through the grip directly and that relays are the order of the day. I just can't come up with an elegent enough wiring solution. Best regards, Andrew Butler RV71700 Galway, Ireland. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 27, 2008
From: "Iberplanes IGL" <iberplanes(at)gmail.com>
Subject: New to the list
Hello, I=B4m new to the list, I=B4m building a Zodiac 601 XL, I live in Barcelona Spain. I hope I=B4ll be able to contribute to this list. Bye! Alberto Martin www.iberplanes.es Igualada - Barcelona - Spain ---------------------------------------------- Zodiac 601 XL Builder Serial: 6-7011 Tail Kit: Finished Wings: Not Started Fuselage: Ordered Engine: Jabiru 3300 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Dimmer trick
Date: Jun 27, 2008
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
I have another dimmer question that can be described in the same thread. Last night I installed the B & C 1.5 A dimmer which went off as described in the instructions. After adding power, my panel dimmed as expected but the dimmer knob control (rheostat) seems to have very limited variability. Turning the knob all the way left turns off the panel lights as expected. Turning it very slowly for the first 1/8 inch turns the lights from completely off to everything in between and then full on. How can I modify the sensitivity such that the dimming effect works throughout the full range of the dimmer switch? Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Laurence Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 5:25 PM To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Dimmer trick Carlos, Try this site. http://www.a-and-t-labs.com/products.htm Peter RV9A N60PL ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Trigo Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 8:08 AM To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dimmer trick Listers I completed my instrument lights circuit, in which I have a dimmer, and all works OK. Nevertheless, when I tested it at night (still at my garage) I noticed that there are a couple of instruments (e.g. the Trutrak ADI) which have a brighter light than the others, and obviously the single dimmer, operating all lights simultaneously, doesn't get me an optimal dimming position for all lights at the same time. Is there a trick to obtain similar brightness in all lights? Can that be achieved by simply installing resistors in the brighter ones? Carlos http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 27, 2008
From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: EL Lighting
Alan, The twisting of the pair of wires tends to cancel the hmmmmmmmmmm, so you should be OK with that. Keep in mind that it is usually best to follow the manufacturer's recommendation. Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan K. Adamson Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 9:23 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: EL Lighting Ok, so the docs on the UMA EL lighting says to twist the wires on the AC wiring for 8 turns per inch... Ok, but has anyone used shielded wire? I'm wondering if there is an advantage to using a 2 conductor shielded tefzel wire (which is twisted internally) and then just ground the shield at one end. Will it be any better or worse than just twisting the 2 wires - unshielded that UMA gives you? For those that don't know, the EL lights use AC (around 100V) to cause the lights to glow, it's low current, but AC and I'd just as soon limit any source for Hmmmmmmmm... Thots? Alan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Andrew Butler" <andrewbutler(at)ireland.com>
Date: Jun 27, 2008
Subject: Grip Flap Motor Control
The perfect nudge in the right direction. Thanks Ivor. Andrew. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ivor Phillips" To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Grip Flap Motor Control Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 12:38:33 +0100 Hi Andrew If you make up a relay deck as http://www.rayallencompany.com/RACmedia/do-it-urself1servorelays.pdf It should work ok, Just make sure the relays can draw the max amps of the flap motor Regards Ivor Phillips -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Butler Sent: 27 June 2008 12:03 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Grip Flap Motor Control Hello, Can anyone give me some pointers on how I may use the trim buttons in my Ray Allen to control my flap motor (I am not going to use the two buttons normally used for electic aileron trim control). I am making the assumption that the current draw of the flap motor is too great to wire through the grip directly and that relays are the order of the day. I just can't come up with an elegent enough wiring solution. Best regards, Andrew Butler RV71700 Galway, Ireland. - - --------- - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum - -- --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List -------------- - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -- --> http://forums.matronics.com --- --------- - List Contribution Web Site - - Thank you for your generous support! ------------------------ ----- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -- --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution - =========== ======== === ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 27, 2008
Subject: Dimmer trick
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net>
Sounds like the devices on the bus are drawing a smaller amount of current than the dimmer circuit was intended to control. If you're only driving LED's and the dimmer circuit was designed to support incandescent bulbs, I could see this happening. It could be something as simple as being at the end of the range for the potentiometer (the thing the knob is controlling) in the dimmer circuit. If this is the case, you might swap the pot for one with a more appropriate range (lower peak resistance). Or possibly you can put a bypass resistor across the pot - while still getting adequately dark. Or, swap out some of those super efficient LED's for a couple of hog-heater light bulbs. :) You could talk with B&C about what to do - product support.. It would be a bit surprising if they haven't run into this before. Regards, Matt- > I have another dimmer question that can be described in the same thread. > Last night I installed the B & C 1.5 A dimmer which went off as > described in the instructions. > > After adding power, my panel dimmed as expected but the dimmer knob > control (rheostat) seems to have very limited variability. Turning the > knob all the way left turns off the panel lights as expected. Turning it > very slowly for the first 1/8 inch turns the lights from completely off > to everything in between and then full on. How can I modify the > sensitivity such that the dimming effect works throughout the full range > of the dimmer switch? > > Glenn > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter > Laurence > Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 5:25 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Dimmer trick > > > Carlos, > > > Try this site. > > > http://www.a-and-t-labs.com/products.htm > > > Peter > > RV9A N60PL > > > ________________________________ > > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Carlos Trigo > Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 8:08 AM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dimmer trick > > > Listers > > > I completed my instrument lights circuit, in which I have a > dimmer, and all works OK. > > Nevertheless, when I tested it at night (still at my garage) I > noticed that there are a couple of instruments (e.g. the Trutrak ADI) > which have a brighter light than the others, and obviously the single > dimmer, operating all lights simultaneously, doesn't get me an optimal > dimming position for all lights at the same time. > > > Is there a trick to obtain similar brightness in all lights? > > Can that be achieved by simply installing resistors in the > brighter ones? > > > Carlos > > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Frank Stringham <fstringham(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-Battery/SD8 problem
Date: Jun 27, 2008
Hi to All Last week I asked a question about my Odyessey 680 battery not being able t o keep a charge. I am using the Z13/8 with SD8 self excitation. I thought I had checked all the suspects and eliminated them one by one as the problem . So as a final step I figured the battery itself was bad. So I recharged a nd disconnected the ground from the firewall. Let it set and wouldn't ya kn ow it. It maintained a charge. So back to the drawing board. In checking al l the possible problems again I noted that that SD8 self excitation may be the problem. I have connected the ground back to the battery and the firewa ll. Will wait to see if it draws down again. With that said who is using the SD8 with self excitation as pre Z25. And if so any problems....... Being tech. challenged in this stuff I am not quite sure how to check the S D8 wiring to find the problem if in fact it is. If the battery discharges w ith the SD8 as configured then maybe it is the problem. I will recharge the battery and disconnect the SD8 from the battery contactor and see what hap pens. If the battery maintains charge with the SD8 removed I will know that the SD8 is the problem if not....................???????? Frank @ 1L8...RV7A...last 945 details...................................... .... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N81JG(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 27, 2008
Subject: Re: RE: AeroElectric-Battery/SD8 problem
I have and SD8 alternater in my VariEze and found early on that the battery was slowly discharged through the small regulator hooked to the SD8. I put a switch in the circuit to turn on the alternater only after the engine is running. That fixed the problem. John Greaves VariEze N81JG Redding, CA **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: S811-1 B&C Starter Contactor
From: "ianwilson2" <ianwilson2(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Jun 28, 2008
Hi Dale, Thanks for your help. I did think of it as you described, but I just wanted to make sure. Ian Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=190210#190210 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Grand Rapids EIS & Hall Effect sonsor
From: "ianwilson2" <ianwilson2(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Jun 28, 2008
Hi All, My GR EIS has the optional Hall Effect sensor that can be installed in one of two locations and I'm after your advice about which would be best on my Jab Z-20 installation. My firewall on the engine side is as per Z-20. The two options are either to monitor battery current (via the + cable) or Alternator output. If I monitor the battery then if the indication goes negative I'll know that my alternator has gone awol and I have limited battery power to get back on the ground (this is only a day/vfr machine). Would this be the best option as I can also keep a track on battery charging? What choice have any users of the EIS made on this sensor? As the Jab has a PM alternator, does this influence anything here? Many thanks in advance. Ian Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=190213#190213 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 28, 2008
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: LED Nav lights
I'm looking into replacing my old Whelen nav and Strobe lighting (A600...all in one type) for my Long EZ with LEDs. To save a little weight, of course, and for longer bulb life and to reduce my electron inventory. I've searched the archives, and have revisited all the sites mentioned here and in other lists in the past, but was curious about experiences that others have had with the brands mentioned. As well as any new manufacturers of LED navigation and strobe lights for my Long EZ similar to the physical configuration of the A600 series that haven't been mentioned yet. I'm currently leading toward Whelen's (an exact replacement for the A600, but a bit too pricey), and Skybrights ( www.airplanegear.com/skybright.htm ). Any other suggestions or comments are always welcome. Harley Dixon Long EZ N28EZ Canandaigua, NY ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joe" <fran5sew(at)banyanol.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-Battery/SD8 problem
Date: Jun 28, 2008
Frank, Do you shut off both the Aux Alternator and E-Bus Alternate Feed switches after engine shut down? Leaving either one on could run down the battery. If you do shut those switches off, then check them with a voltmeter to be sure that they are opening up. 12VDC should be measured across the switch terminals when they are off (assuming an E-Bus load is turned on). Loads on the Main Battery Bus could also run down the battery. You could pull all of the fuses on that bus to see if the problem goes away. If you have a milliamp meter, disconnect a battery cable (negative is safer) and connect the milliamp meter in series between the battery and the battery cable. There should be zero current flowing with everything shut off. You need to be careful doing this. A large current could damage a milliamp meter or blow its fuse. If current is flowing, then loads could be disconnected one at a time until the current stops. That is the culprit. Your previous post dated June 23 mentioned pulling the Aux Alt circuit breaker. That eliminates the SD8 circuit as a problem. The Aux Alt Load Meter is another possibility. Disconnect the wires at the shunt to see if the problem goes away. Chances are the problem is something connected to the Main Battery Bus. What is connected to that bus in your plane? It seems that you would notice a dome light or a Hobbs meter running when it shouldn't. Have you double checked the ignition switch wiring and also the master switch wiring? How many days does it take to run the battery down? Joe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "bob noffs" <icubob(at)newnorth.net>
Subject: fuse placement
Date: Jun 28, 2008
hi all . i did most of my wiring 2 yrs. ago and now i am putting everything back together for the last time. my main bus is powered by a wire from the hot side of my starter solenoid where the 4ga. wire from the battery connects. when i put this together i put the inline fuse [20-30 amps i dont remember] on the engine side of the firewall before the wire entered the cabin. this is a vfr airplane that i would have no intention of trying to replace this fuse in flight. i cant imagine it blowing except from a dead short of the wire that it protects. is there a reason, other than convenience, to move the fuse into the cabin while i am reconnecting my wiring? i dont expect it to ever blow. thanks , bob noffs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charles Brame <chasb(at)satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-Battery/SD8 problem
Date: Jun 28, 2008
My setup has a switch to activate/deactivate the SD-8. The switch is normally off, and I have no problems with battery discharge. Charlie Brame RV-6A N11CB San Antonio --------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Stringham <fstringham(at)hotmail.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: AeroElectric-Battery/SD8 problem Hi to All Last week I asked a question about my Odyessey 680 battery not being able t o keep a charge. I am using the Z13/8 with SD8 self excitation. I thought I had checked all the suspects and eliminated them one by one as the problem . So as a final step I figured the battery itself was bad. So I recharged a nd disconnected the ground from the firewall. Let it set and wouldn't ya kn ow it. It maintained a charge. So back to the drawing board. In checking al l the possible problems again I noted that that SD8 self excitation may be the problem. I have connected the ground back to the battery and the firewa ll. Will wait to see if it draws down again. With that said who is using the SD8 with self excitation as pre Z25. And if so any problems....... Being tech. challenged in this stuff I am not quite sure how to check the S D8 wiring to find the problem if in fact it is. If the battery discharges w ith the SD8 as configured then maybe it is the problem. I will recharge the battery and disconnect the SD8 from the battery contactor and see what hap pens. If the battery maintains charge with the SD8 removed I will know that the SD8 is the problem if not....................???????? Frank @ 1L8...RV7A...last 945 details...................................... .... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 28, 2008
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon(at)CRUZCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: fuse placement
Generally you want the fuse close to the supply end. If you're going to fuse the main bus feed, I'd say yours is right. Ron On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 2:19 PM, bob noffs wrote: > hi all . i did most of my wiring 2 yrs. ago and now i am putting > everything back together for the last time. my main bus is powered by a wire > from the hot side of my starter solenoid where the 4ga. wire from the > battery connects. when i put this together i put the inline fuse [20-30 amps > i dont remember] on the engine side of the firewall before the wire entered > the cabin. this is a vfr airplane that i would have no intention of trying > to replace this fuse in flight. i cant imagine it blowing except from a dead > short of the wire that it protects. is there a reason, other than > convenience, to move the fuse into the cabin while i am reconnecting my > wiring? i dont expect it to ever blow. > thanks , bob noffs > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 28, 2008
Subject: Re: Grand Rapids EIS & Hall Effect sonsor
In a message dated 6/28/2008 4:18:37 A.M. Central Daylight Time, ianwilson2(at)hotmail.com writes: What choice have any users of the EIS made on this sensor? My choice was to **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 28, 2008
Subject: Re: Grand Rapids EIS & Hall Effect sonsor
In a message dated 6/28/2008 4:18:37 A.M. Central Daylight Time, ianwilson2(at)hotmail.com writes: What choice have any users of the EIS made on this sensor? (apologies for previous message- getting accustomed to new laptop!) 8-( My choice was to run Main & E-bus feeds through current sensor. This way I can monitor loads during normal operation and educate myself on typical current requirements depending on equipment in use at any particular time. When & if it becomes necessary to operate on E-bus alone, I am familiar with requirements of various equipment and can adjust battery usage accordingly. I don't think that monitoring alternator output to be particularly useful as this is a system design issue which should be dealt with prior to operation. The EIS has its own low voltage alarm (to annunciate a failed alternator), so it would be redundant to use current sensor for this purpose. Butcha never know- running the strobe leads through it might be kinda entertaining! 8-) Mark **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 28, 2008
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: LED Nav lights
Harley wrote: > I'm looking into replacing my old Whelen nav and Strobe lighting > (A600...all in one type) for my Long EZ with LEDs. To save a little > weight, of course, and for longer bulb life and to reduce my electron > inventory. > > I've searched the archives, and have revisited all the sites mentioned > here and in other lists in the past, but was curious about experiences > that others have had with the brands mentioned. As well as any new > manufacturers of LED navigation and strobe lights for my Long EZ > similar to the physical configuration of the A600 series that haven't > been mentioned yet. Jim Weir just started a series on LED position lights in his column in Kitplanes. -- http://www.ronpaultimeline.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 28, 2008
From: Brett Ferrell <bferrell(at)123mail.net>
Subject: Re: Grand Rapids EIS & Hall Effect sonsor
How big is the doughnut on that hall-effect sensor? Can you get a #2 wire through there with the terminal on it? Brett Fiveonepw(at)aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/28/2008 4:18:37 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > ianwilson2(at)hotmail.com writes: > > What choice have any users of the EIS made on this sensor? > > (apologies for previous message- getting accustomed to new laptop!) 8-( > > My choice was to run Main & E-bus feeds through current sensor. This > way I can monitor loads during normal operation and educate myself on > typical current requirements depending on equipment in use at any > particular time. When & if it becomes necessary to operate on E-bus > alone, I am familiar with requirements of various equipment and can > adjust battery usage accordingly. I don't think that monitoring > alternator output to be particularly useful as this is a system design > issue which should be dealt with prior to operation. The EIS has its > own low voltage alarm (to annunciate a failed alternator), so it would > be redundant to use current sensor for this purpose. > > Butcha never know- running the strobe leads through it might be kinda > entertaining! > > 8-) > > Mark > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used > cars <http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007>. > * > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 28, 2008
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Grand Rapids EIS & Hall Effect sonsor
Hello Ian I put it in the alternator B+ line so it functions as a loadmeter. That lets me see what any particular item draws as I switch it on or off, and also how hard I'm working the alternator. There seems to be little value in monitoring battery current especially if you have a low voltage warning such as the one on your EIS. We know that the alternator is dead if the voltage is below about 12.5 volts. That said, I did have an occasion many years ago where a battery ammeter made it obvious that the battery was being cooked by a failed carbon pile voltage regulator. However the smell was probably the first indication noticed and these days overvoltage protection is available to us and that will act immediately resulting in - a low voltage warning. Your EIS also has overvoltage warning. Ken ianwilson2 wrote: > > > Hi All, > > My GR EIS has the optional Hall Effect sensor that can be installed > in one of two locations and I'm after your advice about which would > be best on my Jab Z-20 installation. My firewall on the engine side > is as per Z-20. > > The two options are either to monitor battery current (via the + > cable) or Alternator output. If I monitor the battery then if the > indication goes negative I'll know that my alternator has gone awol > and I have limited battery power to get back on the ground (this is > only a day/vfr machine). Would this be the best option as I can also > keep a track on battery charging? > > What choice have any users of the EIS made on this sensor? > > As the Jab has a PM alternator, does this influence anything here? > > Many thanks in advance. > > Ian > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: revenson(at)comcast.net (Roger Evenson)
Subject: OV Module Note and Master Switch
Date: Jun 29, 2008
Bob: The wiring diagram that came with the B&C overvoltage module included the following note: "IMPORTANT -- BATTERY CONTACTOR AND ALTERNATOR SHOULD COME ON AND OFF TOGETHER." This seems to suggest a 2-3 style switch rather than the 2-10 style that I've installed. Is this 'important' note the latest 'best practice' (newer than Z11), or can I be confident with the 2-10 style (where the first position activates the battery contactor and the next position the alternator). Thanks. Roger Tucson, AZ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don Curry" <currydon(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: LED Nav lights
Date: Jun 29, 2008
It doesn't look like the strobes in the Skybright lights are LED; in fact, I haven't found any sources for LED strobe lights. Does anybody know of a source for LED strobe lights? Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Harley Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 9:21 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: LED Nav lights I'm looking into replacing my old Whelen nav and Strobe lighting (A600...all in one type) for my Long EZ with LEDs. To save a little weight, of course, and for longer bulb life and to reduce my electron inventory. I've searched the archives, and have revisited all the sites mentioned here and in other lists in the past, but was curious about experiences that others have had with the brands mentioned. As well as any new manufacturers of LED navigation and strobe lights for my Long EZ similar to the physical configuration of the A600 series that haven't been mentioned yet. I'm currently leading toward Whelen's (an exact replacement for the A600, but a bit too pricey), and Skybrights ( www.airplanegear.com/skybright.htm ). Any other suggestions or comments are always welcome. Harley Dixon Long EZ N28EZ Canandaigua, NY ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 2008
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Re: LED Nav lights
Hi Don... Nope, my search hasn't shown any that use LEDs for strobes either. But the new strobe power supplies for the units like the Skybright weigh less than half what the Whelen that I have now does. That alone is worth it for me. However, there ARE LED strobes, but I don't see any for aviation use. They seem to need too many LEDs to produce enough light to replace that single bulb that regular strobes use. See: http://tinyurl.com/6ga3pw Harley ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don Curry wrote: > > It doesn't look like the /strobes/ in the Skybright lights are LED; in > fact, I haven't found any sources for LED _strobe_ lights. Does > anybody know of a source for LED strobe lights? > > Don > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Harley > *Sent:* Saturday, June 28, 2008 9:21 AM > *To:* undisclosed-recipients: > *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: LED Nav lights > > > > I'm looking into replacing my old Whelen nav and Strobe lighting > (A600...all in one type) for my Long EZ with LEDs. To save a little > weight, of course, and for longer bulb life and to reduce my electron > inventory. > > I've searched the archives, and have revisited all the sites mentioned > here and in other lists in the past, but was curious about experiences > that others have had with the brands mentioned. As well as any new > manufacturers of LED navigation and strobe lights for my Long EZ > similar to the physical configuration of the A600 series that haven't > been mentioned yet. > > I'm currently leading toward Whelen's (an exact replacement for the > A600, but a bit too pricey), and Skybrights ( > www.airplanegear.com/skybright.htm > <http://www.airplanegear.com/skybright.htm> ). > > Any other suggestions or comments are always welcome. > > Harley Dixon > Long EZ N28EZ > Canandaigua, NY > > > * * > * * > ** > ** > ** > ** > ** > ** > ** > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > * * > * > > > * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Agelesswings certifies that no virus is in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "bob noffs" <icubob(at)newnorth.net>
Subject: fuse placement
Date: Jun 29, 2008
ron, thanks for the feedback. i guess it was an obvious answer that i took into account 2 yrs ago and now didnt think about it as i was sorting thru my work. surprising how often i have to look at the 100 pics i took of the firewall in '06 before i can reassemble anything! bob noffs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 2008
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon(at)CRUZCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: fuse placement
Bob, Well, at least you have the pictures. The trouble here is that when I'm taking pictures, I often think "Aha, this shot will show this or that brilliantly conceived detail item, and I'll write it up in the description right away." Of course, I don't get around to completing the caption, and a couple weeks later, I've no clue why I even took the picture. :-) The answer to fuse location may not always be obvious though. The circuit should be fused "early" so that little if any of the wire is exposed to the possibility of live shorts (from impact, chafe, overload, etc.) occurring before the fuse, leaving a sparking wire end. For example, I have a roughly 6 ft. total run between a low current (10A) external ground power jack and the battery bus (through diode, OVP, etc.) The source of power on that circuit could be either end. Solution? A fuse on each end, one on the battery bus fuse block, and another inline fuse at the jack. BTW, I was curious why you chose to fuse the main bus feed itself, presumably in addition to fuses/breakers on individual device circuits. The Z figure schematics don't fuse the main bus feed because it would be a single point of failure for everything, unless you also have an E-bus with alternate feed and even then, an EFIS or GPS on the E-bus would "reboot" before you turn on the E-bus alt feed (if they don't have independent backup batteries.) It's a trade off, of course. You have added some fire protection, but at the cost of a single point of failure, no? Ron On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 5:43 AM, bob noffs wrote: > ron, > thanks for the feedback. i guess it was an obvious answer that i took into > account 2 yrs ago and now didnt think about it as i was sorting thru my > work. surprising how often i have to look at the 100 pics i took of the > firewall in '06 before i can reassemble anything! > bob noffs > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "bob noffs" <icubob(at)newnorth.net>
Subject: Re: fuse placement
Date: Jun 29, 2008
hi ron, yes, i have a single point of failure for my main bus but i thought it more important to protect that fairly hefty wire from shorting. if i lose all elect. to my cabin i guess i will land in the next hour. a shorted wire would really limit my options. i fly only day vfr so this works for me. i have hundreds of pics where i didnt even have a subject in mind. i just shot. every angle i can. then when i go back to my pics i usually get lucky and find just what i am looking for! bob noffs ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Shannon To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 8:59 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: fuse placement Bob, Well, at least you have the pictures. The trouble here is that when I'm taking pictures, I often think "Aha, this shot will show this or that brilliantly conceived detail item, and I'll write it up in the description right away." Of course, I don't get around to completing the caption, and a couple weeks later, I've no clue why I even took the picture. :-) The answer to fuse location may not always be obvious though. The circuit should be fused "early" so that little if any of the wire is exposed to the possibility of live shorts (from impact, chafe, overload, etc.) occurring before the fuse, leaving a sparking wire end. For example, I have a roughly 6 ft. total run between a low current (10A) external ground power jack and the battery bus (through diode, OVP, etc.) The source of power on that circuit could be either end. Solution? A fuse on each end, one on the battery bus fuse block, and another inline fuse at the jack. BTW, I was curious why you chose to fuse the main bus feed itself, presumably in addition to fuses/breakers on individual device circuits. The Z figure schematics don't fuse the main bus feed because it would be a single point of failure for everything, unless you also have an E-bus with alternate feed and even then, an EFIS or GPS on the E-bus would "reboot" before you turn on the E-bus alt feed (if they don't have independent backup batteries.) It's a trade off, of course. You have added some fire protection, but at the cost of a single point of failure, no? Ron On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 5:43 AM, bob noffs wrote: ron, thanks for the feedback. i guess it was an obvious answer that i took into account 2 yrs ago and now didnt think about it as i was sorting thru my work. surprising how often i have to look at the 100 pics i took of the firewall in '06 before i can reassemble anything! bob noffs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Joe & Jan Connell" <jconnell(at)fmwildblue.com>
Subject: LED Nav lights
Date: Jun 29, 2008
Try http://www.kestrobes.com/ Kunztleman Electronics has lighting for ultralights, LSA, and experimental aircraft. I have no financial involvement with the company... Joe Connell RV-9A N95JJ Subject: AeroElectric-List: LED Nav lights I'm looking into replacing my old Whelen nav and Strobe lighting (A600...all in one type) for my Long EZ with LEDs. To save a little weight, of course, and for longer bulb life and to reduce my electron inventory. I've searched the archives, and have revisited all the sites mentioned here and in other lists in the past, but was curious about experiences that others have had with the brands mentioned. As well as any new manufacturers of LED navigation and strobe lights for my Long EZ similar to the physical configuration of the A600 series that haven't been mentioned yet. I'm currently leading toward Whelen's (an exact replacement for the A600, but a bit too pricey), and Skybrights ( www.airplanegear.com/skybright.htm ). Any other suggestions or comments are always welcome. Harley Dixon Long EZ N28EZ Canandaigua, NY ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Nav lights
From: "mikef" <mikefapex(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 29, 2008
check out www.aveousa.net ,they seem to have a combo Navigation Light and LED strobe light. Never seen or used on but it looks promising. I have the aeroled landing light, with built in wig-wag for my nose/landing light. Works great, bright as heck! http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/aeroLEDs.php Mike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=190467#190467 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Nav lights
From: "mikef" <mikefapex(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 29, 2008
Just found this on the aveousa.net website. http://aveoengineering.com/download/aveoflash1.mov Looks pretty nice. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=190468#190468 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim McBurney" <jmcburney(at)pobox.com>
Subject: Trutrak vs Trio PIREP
Date: Jun 29, 2008
Hello, list, I'm agonizing over my decision for a single axis autopilot/backup T&B in an all-electric panel. Does anyone have any experience, yay or nay, with either the Trutrak Pictoral Pilot or the Trio EZPilot. If so, please share it with me, either on this list or via direct email. Thanks Blue skies and tailwinds Jim CH-801 DeltaHawk diesel Augusta GA 90% done, 90% left ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 2008
From: "Robert Feldtman" <bobf(at)feldtman.com>
Subject: Re: Trutrak vs Trio PIREP
My Trio is fantastic. Easy to install - works as advertised. Great support from Trio when I encountered GPS NMEA data stream issues coming from the radio - they were fully supportive. My friend has a Trutrak in his Cozy. He had to take it to an avionics shop to get it squared away, but he says it works fine. I haven't flown with it. bobf On 6/29/08, Jim McBurney wrote: > > jmcburney(at)pobox.com> > > Hello, list, > > I'm agonizing over my decision for a single axis autopilot/backup T&B in an > all-electric panel. Does anyone have any experience, yay or nay, with > either the Trutrak Pictoral Pilot or the Trio EZPilot. If so, please share > it with me, either on this list or via direct email. > > Thanks > > Blue skies and tailwinds > > Jim > CH-801 > DeltaHawk diesel > Augusta GA > 90% done, 90% left > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 29, 2008
Subject: Re: Trutrak vs Trio PIREP
Can't speak from personal experience regarding the Trio, but I've heard from several users they are very happy with them. My own experience with TruTrak stuff is on an RV and several Jabirus, two completely different platforms. Both worked beautifully. And FWIW, I recently spent some time at TruTrak Central in Springdale AR while Younkin & Co. configured an installation on a new Jabiru- these folks are tenacious regarding getting it right, and the result was absolutely deceased testicles. Damn impressive... Mark **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Trutrak vs Trio PIREP
From: Michael W Stewart <mike.stewart(at)us.ibm.com>
Date: Jun 30, 2008
Jim, I have experience with both. I find the features of the Trio more advanced and the folks easy to wor k with. Ive got thousands of hours in RV's behind auto pilots. The Trio has the best feature set and price point. You wont be disappointed with either. I choose Trio for the reasons abo ve plus service and support. Best, Mike "Jim McBurney" <jmcburney@pobox. com> To Sent by: owner-aeroelectri cc c-list-server@mat ronics.com Subj ect AeroElectric-List: Trutrak vs Tr io PIREP 06/29/2008 08:40 PM Please respond to aeroelectric-list @matronics.com Hello, list, I'm agonizing over my decision for a single axis autopilot/backup T&B i n an all-electric panel. Does anyone have any experience, yay or nay, with either the Trutrak Pictoral Pilot or the Trio EZPilot. If so, please s hare it with me, either on this list or via direct email. Thanks Blue skies and tailwinds Jim CH-801 DeltaHawk diesel Augusta GA 90% done, 90% left ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Trutrak vs Trio PIREP
Date: Jun 30, 2008
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
Have you thought about the Dynon AP? Appears to blow the others away in terms of value. Much as they have done with their EFIS. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael W Stewart Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 8:41 AM To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Trutrak vs Trio PIREP Jim, I have experience with both. I find the features of the Trio more advanced and the folks easy to work with. Ive got thousands of hours in RV's behind auto pilots. The Trio has the best feature set and price point. You wont be disappointed with either. I choose Trio for the reasons above plus service and support. Best, Mike "Jim McBurney" ---06/29/2008 09:04:10 PM-----> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim McBurney" "Jim McBurney" Sent by: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com 06/29/2008 08:40 PM Please respond to aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com To cc Subject AeroElectric-List: Trutrak vs Trio PIREP Hello, list, I'm agonizing over my decision for a single axis autopilot/backup T&B in an all-electric panel. Does anyone have any experience, yay or nay, with either the Trutrak Pictoral Pilot or the Trio EZPilot. If so, please share it with me, either on this list or via direct email. Thanks Blue skies and tailwinds Jim CH-801 DeltaHawk diesel Augusta GA 90% done, 90% left =========== orum - tor?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-L ist =========== FORUMS - tp://forums.matronics.com =========== Site - bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 2008
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Long EZ LED Navigation Lighting Results
As always, this group is great! I want to thank everyone for their replies to my question about LED navigation and position lights. And to make it easier for someone in the future (or today's lurker) to research the same question, I thought I'd list the results I got here...all in one place. As far as my own decision, I haven't made it yet, as it is a toss up, so far, between the lowest price, and most recommended, Skybrights that require a separate strobe power supply, or the slightly higher priced, relatively new military rated, AveoFlash that are 100% LED...no strobe power supply needed. Today, I am preparing a listing for eBay for the Whelen lights that I currently have. They will be going on eBay this Saturday evening. I guess the choice of new lighting will depend on how much I get for the Whelens. Currently, I am leaning toward the Slovakian made AveoFlash ( www.aveousa.net/avsetoftwona.html ), unless I hear a good reason why not. They also received only good reviews from a number of you listers. Besides...they are on sale! (Don't let my ex wife know ) Harley Dixon Long EZ N28EZ Hangar 29, Airport Canandaigua, NY ------------------------------------------------------------------------ All but the Aveo flash need a separate power supply for the strobe. The lowest price is the Skybright (or the Kitplane article). The highest price is the Whelen. The only fully LED is the Slovakian AveoFlash. In order of number of recommendations: Skybrights: http://www.airplanegear.com/skybright.htm Kuntzleman: www.KEstrobes.com <http://www.kestrobes.com/> AveoFlash: www.aveousa.net GS-air: http://tinyurl.com/43fqfh RST has started and article by Jim Weir in Kitplanes Whelen: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/1105646.php ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>
Date: Jun 30, 2008
Subject: TruTrak ADI
I came in on the tail end of this but.. First off if your VFR only then any trutrak..pictorial pilot or ADI is way more thn you need..I mean..look out the window. If your IFR then you really should think about backups. (yes way more than certified spam cans have been doing for 50 years)..In my case in the RV 7 I have a Dynon D100 (battery backed up) as my primary flight instrument. The n I have a pictorial pilot and a simple ALtrak (altitude hold)..I personall y like seperating the autopilots this way. I also make a point of using the Pictorial pilot as the turn rate...that wa y i automatically scan between both intruments... If the Dynon goes down the Pictorial pilot is perfectly adequate for flying in IMC..In fact I would simpply engage the autopilot This set up works great for instrument flying and VFR cross country George (the autopilots) do all the flying. Frank ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr ic-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Palvary Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 12:46 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: TruTrak ADI Dennis, Dennis, and Mike, Thanks very much for your user reports. The instrument does offer great val ue, but now I'm not sure it is what I want. The Tru Trak ADI has a novel wa y of helping the pilot hold proper attitude in IMC. Supposedly there are hu man factors studies indicating that it is a better way than just the tradit ional horizon indicator. From what I can see, though, the device is simply putting in one convenient unit the turn coordinator , vertical speed indica tor and GPS track....devices I already have on my panel. I think the sugges tion to fly one first hand is the way to go for me because I'm being old fa shioned and believing I will miss the true attitude indicator. --Jose ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Trutrak vs Trio PIREP
From: Michael W Stewart <mike.stewart(at)us.ibm.com>
Date: Jun 30, 2008
"Appears"? You have hit a key word. I dont do "appears." Im afraid they(Dynon) are way behind the AP curve. Where the other providers have been doing it for years, Dynon is new to the field. Hardly months old. This presents several problems for folks wanting to get going in an AP. I do not recommend newcomers until they have proven themselves in the field. Dyn on does not have pitch in the game yet to the best of my knowledge. They s till have far to go to even make the table stakes in my game. Frankly I don' t consider them even a player yet. Mike Sent by: owner-aeroelectri To c-list-server@mat ronics.com cc Subj ect 06/30/2008 10:05 RE: AeroElectric-List: Trutrak v s AM Trio PIREP Please respond to aeroelectric-list @matronics.com Have you thought about the Dynon AP? Appears to blow the others away in terms of value. Much as they have done with their EFIS. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [ mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael W Stewart Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 8:41 AM To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Trutrak vs Trio PIREP Jim, I have experience with both. I find the features of the Trio more advanced and the folks easy to work with. Ive got thousands of hours in RV's behind auto pilots. The Trio h as the best feature set and price point. You wont be disappointed with either. I choose Trio for the reaso ns above plus service and support. Best, Mike Inactive hide details for "Jim McBurney" ---06/29/2008 09:04:10 im McBurney" ---06/29/2008 09:04:10 PM-----> AeroElectric-List messa ge posted by: "Jim McBurney" "Jim McBurney" Sent by: owner-aeroelectr To ic-list-server@m atronics.com 06/29/2008 08:40 cc PM Subj ect Please respond to aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com AeroElectric-List : Trutrak vs Trio PIREP Hello, list, I'm agonizing over my decision for a single axis autopilot/backup T&B in an all-electric panel. Does anyone have any experience, yay or nay, with either the Trutrak Pictoral Pilot or the Trio EZPilot. If so, pl ease share it with me, either on this list or via direct email. Thanks Blue skies and tailwinds Jim CH-801 DeltaHawk diesel Augusta GA 90% done, 90% left ====================== ============== orum - tor?AeroElectric-List"> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ====================== ============== FORUMS - tp://forums.matronics.com =========== Site - bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ====================== ============== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave VanLanen" <davevanlanen(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: P-Touch Wire Labeling Question
Date: Jul 01, 2008
I came across suggestions on the list for using the Brother P-Touch labeling system to label wires. I purchased a PT-1830 printer and the flexible ID tape, which is designed specifically for "flag" labeling wires, cables, etc. I needed to "flag" label the small servo wires (26 AWG) because they are too small for using the label wrap / heat shrink method. A couple of days after applying the labels, I noticed that they started to come loose. Has anyone else used this tape to "flag" label any of their wires, and if so, what was your experience? Am I doing something wrong? Thanks, Dave ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: P-Touch Wire Labeling Question
Date: Jul 01, 2008
I am using the exact same equipment and having very similar experiences. The flags don't seem to come all the way off, but they get loose and can move up and down the wires. They make a product with stronger adhesive, but the tape is stiffer and the results are similar. The stronger adhesive works for labeling my fuse box tho'. Bill B _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave VanLanen Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 11:18 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: P-Touch Wire Labeling Question I came across suggestions on the list for using the Brother P-Touch labeling system to label wires. I purchased a PT-1830 printer and the flexible ID tape, which is designed specifically for "flag" labeling wires, cables, etc. I needed to "flag" label the small servo wires (26 AWG) because they are too small for using the label wrap / heat shrink method. A couple of days after applying the labels, I noticed that they started to come loose. Has anyone else used this tape to "flag" label any of their wires, and if so, what was your experience? Am I doing something wrong? Thanks, Dave ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2008
From: Bob White <bob@bob-white.com>
Subject: Re: P-Touch Wire Labeling Question
For low volume marking, I've found that making a label by writing on 3/32 white shrink tubing with a fine line Sharpie does a good job. For the 26 AWG wire, you might need to put a piece of 1/16 shrink on before shrinking the label on. I've used the 3/32 on 22 AWG Tefzel, and it sticks in place, but if you push on it, it will come loose and slide on the wire. Bob W. "Dave VanLanen" wrote: > I came across suggestions on the list for using the Brother P-Touch labeling > system to label wires. I purchased a PT-1830 printer and the flexible ID > tape, which is designed specifically for "flag" labeling wires, cables, etc. > I needed to "flag" label the small servo wires (26 AWG) because they are too > small for using the label wrap / heat shrink method. A couple of days after > applying the labels, I noticed that they started to come loose. > > Has anyone else used this tape to "flag" label any of their wires, and if > so, what was your experience? Am I doing something wrong? > > Thanks, > Dave > -- N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/cables/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2008
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon(at)CRUZCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: P-Touch Wire Labeling Question
FWIW, on smaller gauge wires, I use a label maker with the flexible tape and, using the smallest font, make a label that's cut with extra white space equal to the width of the letters. I then trim the 1/2" wide tape lengthwise on top and bottom, so the tape width is about 1/4". Then I wrap the tape around the wire perpendicular to the wire, attaching it to the wire and itself. A true flag. Have not had one come off yet. Ron ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>
Date: Jul 01, 2008
Subject: P-Touch Wire Labeling Question
Wow is it really worth all the effort it takes to do this? I mean I have built two airplanes, and flown about about 1000hours between them the latest is IFR and the 601 Zodiac VFR. I did not label a single wire in either airplane and can't see any reason I should so far. Frank ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr ic-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Shannon Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 9:40 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: P-Touch Wire Labeling Question FWIW, on smaller gauge wires, I use a label maker with the flexible tape an d, using the smallest font, make a label that's cut with extra white space equal to the width of the letters. I then trim the 1/2" wide tape lengthwis e on top and bottom, so the tape width is about 1/4". Then I wrap the tape around the wire perpendicular to the wire, attaching it to the wire and its elf. A true flag. Have not had one come off yet. Ron ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2008
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon(at)CRUZCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: P-Touch Wire Labeling Question
Frank, I'm glad it's worked out for you, but even though I've been working with electronics all my life, I have hundreds of wires in the airplane and wouldn't even consider not labeling them. Perhaps you're joking, but if not, the reasons labeling wires are part of best practices should be obvious: reduction or elimination of connection errors, ease of maintenance & troubleshooting for me and others, better resale value, AC-43 recommends it... etc., etc. The reason I personally prefer the trimmed label tape flags on small wires is just that they're easier for me to read when peering into my very cramped panel space. It takes less than a minute per wire to do. Ron On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 10:07 AM, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) < frank.hinde(at)hp.com> wrote: > Wow is it really worth all the effort it takes to do this? > > I mean I have built two airplanes, and flown about about 1000hours between > them the latest is IFR and the 601 Zodiac VFR. > > I did not label a single wire in either airplane and can't see any reason I > should so far. > > Frank > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Date: Jul 01, 2008
Subject: Electrical problems
Friends, I have asked these questions directly to several "gurus" and have gotten no response. Maybe someone on this forum can help me out. Since the forum does not allow enclosures, I have not attached my electrical schematic. Anyone wishing to help, please contact me directly and I will send a pdf of my schematic. I have just begun running the WW-built Corvair 2700 engine on my nearly completed Zodiac 601XL. At present, according to my Dynon EMS-D10, I have negative 3 or 4 amps output from my alternator. Obviously, I need to find out if that is actually the case, and if it is, why. 1) Do I have the ammeter shunt correctly connected to the EMS? (Amps Low to the battery side of the shunt; Amps High to the main bus side) 2) I have seen at least four different ways to connect the S704-1 Alternator OV Disconnect Relay. Do I have mine correctly configured? (Must see schematic) And on another subject: 3) I have each tach lead from the EMS connected through an in-line, fast blow, 0.5amp fuse, to the negative terminal of the coil. When the engine is turning 2,000 rpm (according to my hand held optical tach) the EMS tach is very erratic, reading from 1300 to 1800 rpm, running on either coil. Is there something I can do to correct this? Thanks in advance - Jay Bannister ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject:
Date: Jul 01, 2008
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
Great topic, I have to agree with Ron. I have only been into airplane ownership and building for 3 years and I can already see the benefits of having things well marked. My first airplane was a 67' Cherokee which was so poorly marked I had no idea of where to start to even add a power plug to that mess. Many thousands of dollars was spent at the avionics shop to bring a little organization and safety to the catastrophic mess behind those steam gauges. On the contrary even adding the simplest labeling scheme allows one to readily find and trace wires for upgrades, maintenance etc. It will save you many weekends down the road. If it is done right from the beginning as part of your process, it's not big deal and only takes a minute to draft up labels. You will easily spend 3x the time locating un-labeled wires as you will labeling them. For less than a gallon of gas you can buy or make enough labeling material for the whole airplane. Today if I was looking at an airplane that was poorly labeled or had no labeling at all that would be just cause to walk away from the sale. Labeling is a personal thing which likely reflects on ones personality and quality of the workmanship. If you don't label wires, you probably have a messy desk, an un-organized garage, are not good at detail work and skip shaving most days. On the other hand you may have a photographic memory of just where that wire was lying when you hooked it up :) Cheers -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Shannon Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 5:59 PM To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: P-Touch Wire Labeling Question Frank, I'm glad it's worked out for you, but even though I've been working with electronics all my life, I have hundreds of wires in the airplane and wouldn't even consider not labeling them. Perhaps you're joking, but if not, the reasons labeling wires are part of best practices should be obvious: reduction or elimination of connection errors, ease of maintenance & troubleshooting for me and others, better resale value, AC-43 recommends it... etc., etc. The reason I personally prefer the trimmed label tape flags on small wires is just that they're easier for me to read when peering into my very cramped panel space. It takes less than a minute per wire to do. Ron On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 10:07 AM, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: Wow is it really worth all the effort it takes to do this? I mean I have built two airplanes, and flown about about 1000hours between them the latest is IFR and the 601 Zodiac VFR. I did not label a single wire in either airplane and can't see any reason I should so far. Frank ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Electrical problems
>Friends, > >I have asked these questions directly to several "gurus" and have gotten >no response. Maybe someone on this forum can help me out. Since the forum >does not allow enclosures, I have not attached my electrical schematic. >Anyone wishing to help, please contact me directly and I will send a pdf >of my schematic. This forum DOES allow attachments. Suggest you repeat this note for the group. The reason I didn't respond to your direct inquiry was that I was out of town and just got back. >I have just begun running the WW-built Corvair 2700 engine on my nearly >completed Zodiac 601XL. At present, according to my Dynon EMS-D10, I have >negative 3 or 4 amps output from my alternator. Obviously, I need to find >out if that is actually the case, and if it is, why. Your ammeter shunt is wired to read total electrical load and has nothing to do with alternator output. It has not been wired per the recommended architecture for an alternator load meter . . . therefore, the reading you're getting may be okay. Does your system have a voltmeter? What is the bus voltage when engine RPM is above 2000? >1) Do I have the ammeter shunt correctly connected to the EMS? (Amps Low >to the battery side of the shunt; Amps High to the main bus side) Don't know what Lo and Hi means with respect to your particular ammeter. >2) I have seen at least four different ways to connect the S704-1 >Alternator OV Disconnect Relay. Do I have mine correctly configured? >(Must see schematic) It's fine >And on another subject: > >3) I have each tach lead from the EMS connected through an in-line, fast >blow, 0.5amp fuse, to the negative terminal of the coil. When the engine >is turning 2,000 rpm (according to my hand held optical tach) the EMS tach >is very erratic, reading from 1300 to 1800 rpm, running on either >coil. Is there something I can do to correct this? There might be an individual who knows if the EMS tachometer circuit is compatible with a Kettering ignition. Other noteworthy features in your schematic: Since you have an all-electric engine, suggest you run pumps and ignition systems directly from battery bus. The ignition systems should have their own fuses right at the bus (like your pumps) as opposed to the fuses downstream of the power switch. Suggest you run individual switches for each ignition and pump circuit so that a switch failure doesn't kill both pathways. Suggest flaps run from the main bus, not the endurance bus. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2008
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: OV Module Note and Master Switch
>--=======AVGMAIL-486AE21A0000====== >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > >Bob: > >The wiring diagram that came with the B&C overvoltage module included the >following note: >"IMPORTANT -- BATTERY CONTACTOR AND ALTERNATOR SHOULD COME ON AND OFF >TOGETHER." > >This seems to suggest a 2-3 style switch rather than the 2-10 style that >I've installed. > >Is this 'important' note the latest 'best practice' (newer than Z11), or >can I be confident with the 2-10 style (where the first position activates >the battery contactor and the next position the alternator). That's an artifact from a very old set of instructions before 2-10 switches were offered from my website and ultimately B&C's website. The Z-figures with 2-10 switches are correct as shown. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Is this splice acceptable?
From: "ianwilson2" <ianwilson2(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Jul 02, 2008
Hi all, I've just fabricated the link from one of my Jab dynamo leads, connecting this to pin 1 of the regulater and to a 3A in-line fuse, which will eventually go the tach of my EIS. I've posted a picture of how I've linked the 3 wires together and wanted your opinion on whether it's safe or is there a better way to do this? In the picture the white wires on the left are from the dynamo, the white(?) on the right go to the voltage regulater and the red wire at the bottom is the 3A in-line fuse. Am I ok with the piggy-back connector that I've used? Thanks for your time. Ian Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=190838#190838 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/imgp1641_144.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Electrical Mystery
Date: Jul 02, 2008
From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com>
This was related to me by a fellow hangar mate: While taxing to the runway I got a message on my 430 Garmin and the nav/com2 started blinking as if it where loosing power. The Mooney is powered by an 0360 A2F lycoming with a generator charging system.. I had a normal start-up and all was normal. Engine RPM directly after start-up was 700. After a couple of minutes of warm up I take it to 1000 to allow vacuum to increase. I set my radios and instruments then began my taxi. All indications were normal until half way to the runway. I retrieved a message from the 430 that said "no altitude input" and the Nav/Com2 started blinking. RPM was 1200 during taxi. When I stopped for run-up the garmin had shut off completely. I took the RPM to 2000 and it came back on and I was able to reset my destination. All other indications were normal. Amp gauge was showing a positive charge as it normally does. I turned off all my lights and when I dropped the RPM to approximately 1500 the garmin and nav/com2 once again lost power. Is this symptomatic of an electron illness of a particular sort? Chuck Jensen ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 02, 2008
From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Coil selector
I have a dual electronic ignition going to 2 separate coils. The output of the coils go to a coil selector and the output goes to the distributor and to the single set of plugs. Does anyone have any data on the reliability of the coil selector method. I understand they are very reliable, but it is a single point of failure. Comments please, Thanks, Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4WGH(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 02, 2008
Subject: Re: P-Touch Wire Labeling Question
I have a Brother labeling machine. However, for the wires, I made up labels using a word processor, No. 8 font. Cut them out and used heat shrink over them. Worked great. YMMV. Regards, Wally Hunt RV-4 Finishing Kit **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "n801bh(at)netzero.com" <n801bh(at)NetZero.com>
Date: Jul 02, 2008
Subject: Re: Coil selector
Roger, I have the same set up on my experimental... I have not heard of a single time a coil switcher failing. Feel free to head to my website for further pics on how I did mine or if ya got more time,, get a beer o r two and watch my video thats on google and it will clearly show the co mplete set up.. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7272451917550730841&hl=en Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" wrote: I have a dual electronic ignition going to 2 separate coils. The output of the coils go to a coil selector and the output goes to the distribut or and to the single set of plugs. Does anyone have any data on the reliability of the coil selector method . I understand they are very reliable, but it is a single point of fail ure.


June 11, 2008 - July 02, 2008

AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-hx