AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ic
August 27, 2008 - September 12, 2008
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Push-to-Test Lamp |
>
>
>Bob:
>
>I've purchased 2 Push-to-Test Lamps: MS25041 (amber) for my Low Voltage
>Warning Lamp and another one (blue) for Low Oil Pressure. The lamps have3
>tabs, numbered 1-2-3 and I'm trying to determine how to wire this lamp:
>which is ground, hot and common....
>
>Any help or suggestions appreciated.
A schematic for the fixture can be found at:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/PTT_Dim_Fixture.jpg
An exemplar application can be found in:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Push-to-Test Lamp |
| From: | Etienne Phillips <etienne.phillips(at)gmail.com> |
On 28 Aug 2008, at 5:01 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> An exemplar application can be found in:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Hi Bob
Just a question. From my understanding, looking at this doc and the
attachment from Don Curry, it looks as though pin 1 is common, 2 is
normal and 3 is engaged on push. In your wiring, the bulb will only
light up when external power is applied, which is great. What happens
though when the bulb doesn't light up , and there's supposedly
external power applied? There are only 3 possibilities: there is a
problem with the external power, the bulb has popped, or the circuit
breaker is not closed. In the first 2 cases, pushing the lens will
not make the bulb light up.
Would it not be better to wire the bulb so that it allows better
fault-tracing? My suggestion would be pin 1 to ground, pin 2 to the
high voltage side of the contactor coil (where pin 1 is connected on
your diagram), and pin 3 to a fuse then onto the battery bus (or any
bus that would normally be powered when you'd want to use external
power).
The behaviour of the light would change though:
If there is external power, the lamp will light up with the switch in
either position, indicating external power is available for use
If there is no external power getting in (incorrect polarity or
broken power supply) the bulb will not light
To test the bulb at any time, with or without external power applied,
push the lens
What do you think? Am I smoking my socks?
Thanks
Etienne
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mick Muller" <mmul6471(at)bigpond.net.au> |
Look as much as I hate to appear a complete idiot, I have to ask.
I have been studying the aero lectric connection. I have seen diagrams and
see switches that are labelled N-C and N-O .
Am I right to assume these mean Normally Closed and Normally Open
respectively??
Thanks, Mick the Greenhorn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> |
| Subject: | Re: symbol meanings |
If you ask a question, you may sometimes be a 'complete idiot' for 5
seconds - if you don't ask the question you may remain a 'complete idiot'
for the rest of your life
You are correct in you assumptions re: Normally Closed (circuit complete) -
Normally Open (circuit isolated)
Regards - John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mick Muller" <mmul6471(at)bigpond.net.au>
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 11:54 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: symbol meanings
>
>
> Look as much as I hate to appear a complete idiot, I have to ask.
>
> I have been studying the aero lectric connection. I have seen diagrams and
> see switches that are labelled N-C and N-O .
> Am I right to assume these mean Normally Closed and Normally Open
> respectively??
>
> Thanks, Mick the Greenhorn
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Push-to-Test Lamp |
>Bob:
>
>I've purchased 2 Push-to-Test Lamps: MS25041 (amber) for my Low Voltage
>Warning Lamp and another one (blue) for Low Oil Pressure. The lamps
have3
>tabs, numbered 1-2-3 and I'm trying to determine how to wire this lamp:
>which is ground, hot and common....
>
>Any help or suggestions appreciated.
A schematic for the fixture can be found at:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/PTT_Dim_Fixture.jpg
An exemplar application can be found in:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
Bob . . .
It looks like the test lamp function will not work on the gndpwr.pdf
drawing. When ground power is removed there is no power to test lamp.
To wire a low oil pressure switch: assuming the switch is normally open
and
goes to ground, connect pin 1 to fused 12V, pin 2 (normally closed) to
the
oil pressure switch, and pin 3 to ground.
Roger
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
| From: | "Brantel" <bchesteen(at)hughes.net> |
I took a look at the new kitplanes article on how to build an elegant LED driver
for aircraft.
Up until now I have been planning to use an off the shelf cheap constant current
power supply from LEDDYNAMICs. But people are reporting everywhere that these
things are trashing the aircraft radios with RF noise.
That being said, what if any advantages would the kitplanes article driver have
over one of these off the shelf drivers and would the noise problem still exist
with that driver as well?
>From looking at the circuit, it looks similar to what one might think the LEDDynamics
one would look like inside.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 1142#201142
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
| Subject: | Re: symbol meanings |
Hello Mick,
your assumption is a 100% correct and don't worry we all started there
one time!
Keep ongoing, you're doing well (BTW sometimes "googling" helps)
Werner
Mick Muller wrote:
>
>
> Look as much as I hate to appear a complete idiot, I have to ask.
>
> I have been studying the aero lectric connection. I have seen diagrams
> and see switches that are labelled N-C and N-O .
> Am I right to assume these mean Normally Closed and Normally Open
> respectively??
>
> Thanks, Mick the Greenhorn
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>Bob..
>
>Looks like that link to for the 177 data should be
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Tools/Ideal_Stripmaster/Stripmaster.pdf
>
>v. the ... /stripmaster.pdf
Correct. Thanks! I have to be careful when testing links while
crafting the html in my desktop, windows doesn't care about
capitalization but Unix on the server does. Got the target
url and two links on the server to agree but forgot to go
back and correct the list-server posting.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Push-to-Test Lamp |
> >Bob:
> >
> >I've purchased 2 Push-to-Test Lamps: MS25041 (amber) for my Low Voltage
> >Warning Lamp and another one (blue) for Low Oil Pressure. The lamps have3
> >tabs, numbered 1-2-3 and I'm trying to determine how to wire this lamp:
> >which is ground, hot and common....
> >
> >Any help or suggestions appreciated.
>
>A schematic for the fixture can be found at:
>
>http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Lighting/PTT_Dim_Fixture.jpg
>
>An exemplar application can be found in:
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> It looks like the test lamp function will not work on the gndpwr.pdf
>drawing. When ground power is removed there is no power to test lamp.
Correct . . . it also shows that no ground power is applied.
The idea here is that the pilot can know that ground power
is available before actually applying it to the airplane.
The PTT function can be used for more purposes that to
query condition of the lamp. I've used these fixtures as
push-button, lamp-holder combinations wherein the NO contact
of the fixture is used to signal a circuit to do a self-test
routine that ends with the lamp responding in some prescribed
manner. I've also used the contact to start an auto-terminating
operation . . . like trigger a timer on a bilge pump in a
sea-plane. It runs for a period of time (light is lit) and then
shuts off (light goes out).
>To wire a low oil pressure switch: assuming the switch is normally open and
>goes to ground, connect pin 1 to fused 12V, pin 2 (normally closed) to the
>oil pressure switch, and pin 3 to ground.
Yup, that works!
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
Brantel wrote:
> That being said, what if any advantages would the kitplanes article driver have
over one of these off the shelf drivers and would the noise problem still exist
with that driver as well?
>
Education.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: symbol meanings |
>
>Hello Mick,
>
>your assumption is a 100% correct and don't worry we all started there one
>time!
>
>Keep ongoing, you're doing well (BTW sometimes "googling" helps)
>
>Werner
>
>Mick Muller wrote:
>>
>>
>>Look as much as I hate to appear a complete idiot, I have to ask.
>>
>>I have been studying the aero lectric connection. I have seen diagrams
>>and see switches that are labelled N-C and N-O .
>>Am I right to assume these mean Normally Closed and Normally Open
>>respectively??
I've oft suggested to new students of the art that
schematics are "road maps" for electrons. The first
time we picked up an aeronautical chart, there was
much in common with Rand McNally road maps but with
many new cryptic symbols and terminology. By the time
we had a few cross country flights in the log, we
could communicate with some competence in the new
"language".
The schematics are no different so the advice of the
ages applies here too . . . until you ask, you
will endure the effects of not knowing.
Welcome to the AeroElectric-List classroom Mike.
Holler if any of us can help!
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
>
>I took a look at the new kitplanes article on how to build an elegant LED
>driver for aircraft.
>
>Up until now I have been planning to use an off the shelf cheap constant
>current power supply from LEDDYNAMICs. But people are reporting
>everywhere that these things are trashing the aircraft radios with RF noise.
>
>That being said, what if any advantages would the kitplanes article driver
>have over one of these off the shelf drivers and would the noise problem
>still exist with that driver as well?
>
> >From looking at the circuit, it looks similar to what one might think
> the LEDDynamics one would look like inside.
Without seeing the circuit, I'm not sufficiently informed
to offer solutions for the noise issues. But know too
that unless the appliance of interest is composed only
of relays and resistors, it has a strong probability of
generating some level of noise. The questions are always
how much noise and at what frequencies?
This is why we do the DO-160 investigations and subsequent
modifications to a product to limit any noises to
acceptable levels. There is a high order probability
that any COTS (commercial off the shelf) device can be
tailored with packaging and filtering to live harmoniously
in the aircraft environment.
If someone could point me to the schematics and
perhaps data sheets for the power supply in question,
we could ponder the options for integrating them into
the system.
Linear (non-noisy) constant current circuits are a dime
a dozen but they are inefficient and unable to provide
constant output over a wide range of input voltages. I
suspect the Leddynamics device is a switchmode device
that works over a wider range of input voltages and
dissipates less heat (more efficient) in the process.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Push-to-Test Lamp |
>
>
>
>On 28 Aug 2008, at 5:01 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>
>>An exemplar application can be found in:
>>
>>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>
>Hi Bob
>
>Just a question. From my understanding, looking at this doc and the
>attachment from Don Curry, it looks as though pin 1 is common, 2 is
>normal and 3 is engaged on push. In your wiring, the bulb will only
>light up when external power is applied, which is great. What happens
>though when the bulb doesn't light up , and there's supposedly
>external power applied? There are only 3 possibilities: there is a
>problem with the external power, the bulb has popped, or the circuit
>breaker is not closed. In the first 2 cases, pushing the lens will
>not make the bulb light up.
>
>Would it not be better to wire the bulb so that it allows better
>fault-tracing? My suggestion would be pin 1 to ground, pin 2 to the
>high voltage side of the contactor coil (where pin 1 is connected on
>your diagram), and pin 3 to a fuse then onto the battery bus (or any
>bus that would normally be powered when you'd want to use external
>power).
>
>The behaviour of the light would change though:
>If there is external power, the lamp will light up with the switch in
>either position, indicating external power is available for use
>If there is no external power getting in (incorrect polarity or
>broken power supply) the bulb will not light
>To test the bulb at any time, with or without external power applied,
>push the lens
>
>What do you think? Am I smoking my socks?
Not at all, you've perceived the possibilities for meeting
different design goals. I explained the rationale for
wiring as-shown in another posting. The suggestions you've
made are equally valid. The differences are how the two
circuits convey understanding . . . which assumes that
the pilot KNOWS what to expect. This suggests that it's
up to the tech-writer who crafts the POH to covey that
understanding to the future users.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andrew Butler" <andrewbutler(at)ireland.com> |
| Subject: | Re: symbol meanings |
I scratched my head on that one too not so long ago.
Once I concluded (now confirmed to be correct) what NC and NO stood for I
never really got what the word normally meant in this context.
I mean, how can a switch be Normally Open AND Normally Closed. I noted
the apparent paradox, concluded I was missing something sublte and left
it at that.
Now the phrases "circuit complete" and "circuit isolated" have appeared.
These words appear to solve the paradox in that the word "normally"
refers to the end result of normal operation rather than some sort of
paradoxical indicator of what the normal operation of the switch should
be........
Is this correct?
Andrew.
----- Original Message -----
From: "JOHN TIPTON"
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: symbol meanings
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 12:31:05 +0100
If you ask a question, you may sometimes be a 'complete idiot' for 5
seconds - if you don't ask
the question you may remain a 'complete idiot' for the rest of your
life
You are correct in you assumptions re: Normally Closed (circuit
complete) - Normally Open
(circuit isolated)
Regards - John
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mick Muller"
To: "Aero lectric bob List"
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 11:54 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: symbol meanings
>
> Look as much as I hate to appear a complete idiot, I have to ask.
>
> I have been studying the aero lectric connection. I have seen
diagrams and see switches that
> are labelled N-C and N-O .
> Am I right to assume these mean Normally Closed and Normally Open
respectively??
>
> Thanks, Mick the Greenhorn
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Brown <dan(at)familybrown.org> |
| Subject: | Re: symbol meanings |
Quoting Andrew Butler :
> I mean, how can a switch be Normally Open AND Normally Closed. I noted
This often happens with momentary switches. They'll have three
terminals--Common, NO, and NC. With the switch at rest, the circuit
from Common to NO is open, and from Common to NC is closed. When the
switch is activated (pressed, etc.), this reverses--Common to NO is
closed, and Common to NC is open. So, it's Normally Open or Normally
Closed depending on how you wire it.
--
Dan Brown, KE6MKS, dan(at)familybrown.org
"Since all the world is but a story, it were well for thee to buy the
more enduring story rather than the story that is less enduring."
-- The Judgment of St. Colum Cille
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Push-to-Test Lamp |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
The US will join Australia and most other industrialized countries to discourage
(or ban) the use of filament lamps in the next few years. Building an airplane
with filament lamps seems to be a stretch...unless you are building one for
a museum and you want it to be historically correct-along with the silk and gutta-percha
insulation on the wires.
Another reason to ditch the filament lamps is seen when you look at the efficacy
of filament lamps. Big lamps, especially halogens can be >20 lumens per watt,
but the tiny indicator lamps are only 3-6 lumens per watt.
Although it seems to be a small thing, incandescent lamps are horribly
inefficient in small sizes. For example:GE# 67 (smallest bayonet instrument light)
13.5 Volts Lamp Power 8W 0.59A 4 Candelas (about 50 lumens) Average Life
5000 Hours. 50 lumens/8W = 6 lumens per watt.
The similar LED is 25-100 lumens per watt, but the comparison doesn't stop there.
The GE #67 incandescent is typically color-filtered so that only 10% of the
emitted light is used, and it is isotropic so only 25% of THAT light goes where
you need it. Furthermore using 10 GE #67 lamps (typical on a panel) is about
6 AMPS.....Astonishing load for no good reason.
And the LED will last FOREVER or 100,000 hours....whichever comes first...20X longer
at least. So the LED (depending on how you figure...) is 1000X better deal.
You want to put in a Push-to-Test switch? You don't need any for the LEDs. You
don't need a socket either, since the LEDs outlast the socket, the connectors,
and Push-to-Talk mechanism.
"Everything you've learned in school as 'obvious' becomes less and less obvious
as you begin to study the universe. For example, there are no solids in the universe.
There's not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute continuums.
There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines."
-R. Buckminster Fuller
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 1185#201185
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
| From: | "Brantel" <bchesteen(at)hughes.net> |
Bob,
I have emailed you a direct link to this Kitplanes article. Please check it out.
Here is the data sheets for the LEDDYNAMICs driver:
http://www.leddynamics.com/LuxDrive/datasheets/3021-BuckPuck.pdf
Thanks for any input you can share on this.
A few ideas on how to make the most efficient constant currend driver (linear)
would be great. I know it is not the best but it would have to be better than
a huge power robbing resistor....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 1186#201186
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Push-to-Test Lamp |
Eric M. Jones wrote:
>
> The US will join Australia and most other industrialized countries to discourage
(or ban) the use of filament lamps in the next few years. Building an airplane
with filament lamps seems to be a stretch...unless you are building one for
a museum and you want it to be historically correct-along with the silk and
gutta-percha insulation on the wires.
>
> Another reason to ditch the filament lamps is seen when you look at the efficacy
of filament lamps. Big lamps, especially halogens can be >20 lumens per watt,
but the tiny indicator lamps are only 3-6 lumens per watt.
>
> Although it seems to be a small thing, incandescent lamps are horribly
> inefficient in small sizes. For example:GE# 67 (smallest bayonet instrument
light) 13.5 Volts Lamp Power 8W 0.59A 4 Candelas (about 50 lumens) Average Life
5000 Hours. 50 lumens/8W = 6 lumens per watt.
>
> The similar LED is 25-100 lumens per watt, but the comparison doesn't stop there.
The GE #67 incandescent is typically color-filtered so that only 10% of the
emitted light is used, and it is isotropic so only 25% of THAT light goes where
you need it. Furthermore using 10 GE #67 lamps (typical on a panel) is about
6 AMPS.....Astonishing load for no good reason.
>
> And the LED will last FOREVER or 100,000 hours....whichever comes first...20X
longer at least. So the LED (depending on how you figure...) is 1000X better
deal.
>
> You want to put in a Push-to-Test switch? You don't need any for the LEDs. You
don't need a socket either, since the LEDs outlast the socket, the connectors,
and Push-to-Talk mechanism.
>
One more advantage with the LED is that you can put one anywhere you can
drill a 3/16" hole, and even direct the light by angling the hole
properly. The standard 5mm LED is a push fit into a 3/16" hole. Then
you just need a small amount of room on the backside for hookup wires.
If the mounting surface is thick enough and you're careful, you can use
a #30 bit for the last 1/16" of the hole. Then you don't even need a
bevel. You wind up with a nearly hidden indicator or spot illuminator.
The push fit will keep it in place, but a dollup of shoo-goo is good for
peace-of-mind.
No way you could do that with the GE #67. It needs a special socket to
get rid of all that heat.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Voltage dropping resistor calculations |
Ken, it was that note about 6 volts that led me to wonder about appropriate
voltage. I called the factory this afternoon and told the tech I wanted to
wire my 2000C into ship's power. She told me to snip off the lighter plug
and wire away. The internal power supply can handle up to 36V input. Thanks
to all who replied, this list is a great resource.
Say Bob, I live just down the road in Udall. Would you like to go for a ride
in the trike some evening and see what cruising at 42 mph is like. I have
training bars (not wheels) on the big wing so you can have the PIC station
and really see what weight shift control aircraft are about.
Rick
On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Ken wrote:
>
> I think Jon is right and you are fine. If there was any kind of voltage
> dropping in the plug it would get noticeably warm like my cell phone plug
> and I've never noticed the 2000c plug to get warm. And as mentioned the
> 2000c will display the correct system voltage of 14.3 when I look. Also
> notice that the display dims noticeably on 6v battery power compared to
> using 12 volts and I believe the manual says that is normal.
>
> The only batteries worth putting in my unit are 2000mah or larger NiMh.
> Alkaline life seems to be measured in minutes. The black and white model is
> much more battery friendly.
>
> Ken
>
> jon(at)finleyweb.net wrote:
>
>> Fear not Rick, you are ok. I too have the 2000c wired directly into my
>> 12V bus. I don't remember the exact specs but the unit is very tolerant of
>> voltage. Seems like it was anything from 6 to 24 volts (or something like
>> that - check the documentation to confirm).
>> Also, if you install a resistor, the 2000c's voltage display will no
>> longer represent what is on the ship's bus. This is not my primary voltage
>> display but it is a nice backup.
>> Jon
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Richard Girard" <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:33pm
>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Voltage dropping resistor calculations
>>
>> Okay guys take it esy on the electrically ignorant. I have a Lowrance
>> 2000C GPS in my trike that just eats batteries. I get about an hour from 4
>> new AA's. It was no problem when I was only flying that long one way, I'd
>> just carry four spares in my pocket and change them out before starting
>> home. When I started going further afield I decided to use one of the open
>> slots on the fuse panel and power it from ship's power instead. Since I had
>> the lighter cord that came with the GPS but no lighter recepticle on the
>> trike, I cut off the lighter plug, put on a couple of fastons on the ends of
>> the wires and was FD & H for the last year. I should add that I was smart
>> enough to look at the innards of the plug just to make sure there wasn't
>> anything inside that looked critical to powering the unit. There was one
>> small resistor, but it seemed to me it was for the LED and not the GPS. It
>> was while going through the manual some thirty hours since making the change
>> to onboard power that I began to worry there is no universal power adapter
>> built into the GPS. I fear that I may be pumping 12V into a 6V power supply.
>> This morning I pulled the + wire at the fuse panel and measured the
>> current draw at just slightly under .6 amps. If I understand Ohm's law, and
>> there's some doubt in my mind about that, I need a 10 ohm resistor to drop
>> the voltage, so a stop at Rat Shack was in order. I now have a pair of 10
>> ohm 1 watt resistors, and two questions.
>> Did I do the math correctly? Am I worrying about nothing? Seems to me the
>> GPS runs through the lighter cord just fine on 12 volts, but I sure would
>> hate to damage it by being stupid.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Rick Girard
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Voltage dropping resistor calculations |
>Ken, it was that note about 6 volts that led me to wonder about
>appropriate voltage. I called the factory this afternoon and told the tech
>I wanted to wire my 2000C into ship's power. She told me to snip off the
>lighter plug and wire away. The internal power supply can handle up to 36V
>input. Thanks to all who replied, this list is a great resource.
I was wondering about that. Given that you'd already tried
it without getting smoke suggested that the power conditioning
had a pretty wide input range!
>Say Bob, I live just down the road in Udall. Would you like to go for a
>ride in the trike some evening and see what cruising at 42 mph is like. I
>have training bars (not wheels) on the big wing so you can have the PIC
>station and really see what weight shift control aircraft are about.
>
>Rick
I'd like that! Do you live on the community grass strip south
of the city?
If so, do the Randalls still live there? I used to deliver
papers to the older Randall when I was in high school.
Randall the younger was really into rebuilding wrecked
cars. Was quite a craftsman as I recall. Last I heard of
them was a move to the airport south of Udall where I
think they took up some aircraft maintenance and rebuilding.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
Bob, You wrote in the net:
"There's a simple circuit you can add to the Gigavac that will emulate
EV-200
functionality -AND- with some judicious design, will eliminate the noise
issues
associated with the EV-200. ."
Bob,
I didn't get any details of this vital circuit which would solve my
shortage of electrical current beautifully. Could you possibly set my nose
in
the right direction to sniff out this circuit?
regards, Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Voltage dropping resistor calculations |
Bob, That's where I am. Tom Randall lives just up the road. I've never seen
an airplane at his place except for transients and when we run Young Eagles
flights during the Udall Fall Festival. He does a lot of big vehicles and
cars, though.
How close are you to Benton (1K1) or Jabara (AAO)? That's an easy cruise in
the trike when the big wing is on. Since we have a long weekend coming up we
could try for a morning flight before the convective activity kicks off.
That way if there's any headwind I don't have to worry about running out of
daylight while trying to get home.
Rick
On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 7:33 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
>
>
>> Ken, it was that note about 6 volts that led me to wonder about
>> appropriate voltage. I called the factory this afternoon and told the tech I
>> wanted to wire my 2000C into ship's power. She told me to snip off the
>> lighter plug and wire away. The internal power supply can handle up to 36V
>> input. Thanks to all who replied, this list is a great resource.
>>
>
> I was wondering about that. Given that you'd already tried
> it without getting smoke suggested that the power conditioning
> had a pretty wide input range!
>
> Say Bob, I live just down the road in Udall. Would you like to go for a
>> ride in the trike some evening and see what cruising at 42 mph is like. I
>> have training bars (not wheels) on the big wing so you can have the PIC
>> station and really see what weight shift control aircraft are about.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>
> I'd like that! Do you live on the community grass strip south
> of the city?
>
> If so, do the Randalls still live there? I used to deliver
> papers to the older Randall when I was in high school.
> Randall the younger was really into rebuilding wrecked
> cars. Was quite a craftsman as I recall. Last I heard of
> them was a move to the airport south of Udall where I
> think they took up some aircraft maintenance and rebuilding.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: symbol meanings |
>I scratched my head on that one too not so long ago.
>
>Once I concluded (now confirmed to be correct) what NC and NO stood for I
>never really got what the word normally meant in this context.
>
>I mean, how can a switch be Normally Open AND Normally Closed. I noted the
>apparent paradox, concluded I was missing something sublte and left it at that.
>
>Now the phrases "circuit complete" and "circuit isolated" have appeared.
>These words appear to solve the paradox in that the word "normally" refers
>to the end result of normal operation rather than some sort of paradoxical
>indicator of what the normal operation of the switch should be........
>
>Is this correct?
Pretty close. "Normal" in this case is usually applied to
two-position devices (push buttons, microswitches, relays, etc)
wherein the "normal" is the de-energized or relaxed state of a
spring-loaded mechanism. For example, in the photo at . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/sm_switch_cutaway.jpg
The operating button is not depress and the switch is in its
"normal" state. The tiny letters sanded off when I opened this
switch labeled the left-most terminal "C" for common. The
As you can see by inspection, the right-most terminal is
presently connected to "C" and is the "NC" contact. The
middle terminal is presently not connected to anything and
is "NO".
Pushing the operator button transfers the mechanism and
the NO contact becomes connected while the NC contact is
disconnected.
In this picture, we see a 20A plastic relay . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Relays/Plastic_Relay_2.jpg
where coil, common, normally open and normally closed
markings are molded into the top. Quite often, terminals
are marked with numbers or not at all. In this case, there's
generally a schematic printed on the side of the device
that references connection numbers or their position
in the terminal pattern. See:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Relays/Mil-Spec_10A_Sealed.jpg
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Any excuse to go flying . . . |
>Bob, That's where I am. Tom Randall lives just up the road. I've never
>seen an airplane at his place except for transients and when we run Young
>Eagles flights during the Udall Fall Festival. He does a lot of big
>vehicles and cars, though.
Hmmm . . . I think airplanes were Darryl's thing. Tom
definitely preferred things with big rubber tires.
>How close are you to Benton (1K1) or Jabara (AAO)?
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Rock_Throw_to_Jabara.jpg
>That's an easy cruise in the trike when the big wing is on. Since we have
>a long weekend coming up we could try for a morning flight before the
>convective activity kicks off. That way if there's any headwind I don't
>have to worry about running out of daylight while trying to get home.
Understood. Dr. Dee and I owned 1K1 for a time back in
'89. Took 6-months to find out that I wasn't cut out
to be an airport owner. It was like being a dairy farmer . . .
sun-up-to-sun-down, 7/365. Had a LOT of fun but other
things we wanted to do too had to be set aside.
When we had it, there was only 2600' of asphalt
and the pole-barns.
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/1K1_Spring_1989A.jpg
It's sure a lot different now! I'll have to get over
there an collect another picture for the before-n-after
gallery.
Any excuse to go flying! I think I'm going to be in
Wichita all weekend.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: EV200 circuit |
>Bob, You wrote in the net:
>"There's a simple circuit you can add to the Gigavac that will emulate
>EV-200
>functionality -AND- with some judicious design, will eliminate the noise
>issues
>associated with the EV-200. ."
>
>Bob,
> I didn't get any details of this vital circuit which would solve my
>shortage of electrical current beautifully. Could you possibly set my nose
>in
>the right direction to sniff out this circuit?
Yeah, I was hoping that my sample contactor would
be here by now. The rep called me early this week and
said it was "in the mail". I wanted to try the circuit
on a real contactor . . .
What are you building that is so starved for power?
You probably told me when we were up there a few years
back but you'll have to cut this gray-beard a little
slack . . . Lord knows the gray-matter is getting slack!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
>
>
>Brantel wrote:
>>That being said, what if any advantages would the kitplanes article
>>driver have over one of these off the shelf drivers and would the noise
>>problem still exist with that driver as well?
>>
>Education.
Jim's choice of silicon for an LED driver is curious. Perhaps
he likes the part's package . . . it's a dual-inline-plastic
which is easier for the neophyte to work with. There are
some more modern, constant current LED driver devices that
are electrically more suited to the task. An exemplar device
is shown here:
http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM3404.pdf
This is one of a host of similar one to multi-channel dimmer
controllers. The 3404 delivers up to of constant current
to it's companion loads.
It's a switcher. It hums at 1 to 2 Mhz with a butt-ugly
wave-form rich in harmonics. This device needs to be
a very compact layout (small antenna aperture) and be fitted
with conduction filters on the input/output wires. It
MIGHT be okay in a plastic enclosure . . . but a metal
one never hurts.
If folks are interested in an LED driver tested for
radiated and conducted emissions, I might be able to
add that to our catalog in the not too distant future.
My consulting work is going to require me to spend a
lot more time in an RFI lab. I can probably piggy-back
some of my 'government jobs' on top of a paying task.
I used to do this years ago by letting my little gizmo
run in parallel with test articles in the chamber. As
long as we were both cool, I could get two sets of test
data with one scan. If we had an out-lying data point,
I'd turn off my gizmo to see who was responsible
for busting the limits. I think I'll be able to do
this again pretty soon. I'm working three paying jobs
that need to get into the lab soon.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Leikam" <daveleikam(at)wi.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Electroair ignition |
Does anyone have experience with Electroair ignitions? Compared to
Lightspeed?
Dave Leikam
RV-10 #40496
N89DA (Reserved)
Muskego, WI
Canopy trimming
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Electroair ignition |
| From: | "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com> |
Experience in, like how to troubleshoot and adjust, or in, like has
anyone flown them. I can only help on the latter. About 700 hours with
Electroair on one side, mag on the other on a Velocity XLRG. I woudn't
know much about troubleshooting/repairing....never had to.
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave
Leikam
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 12:09 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electroair ignition
Does anyone have experience with Electroair ignitions? Compared to
Lightspeed?
Dave Leikam
RV-10 #40496
N89DA (Reserved)
Muskego, WI
Canopy trimming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Laurence" <dr.laurence(at)mbdi.org> |
| Subject: | Electroair ignition |
Yes
Peter
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Leikam
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 12:09 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electroair ignition
Does anyone have experience with Electroair ignitions? Compared to
Lightspeed?
Dave Leikam
RV-10 #40496
N89DA (Reserved)
Muskego, WI
Canopy trimming
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson(at)pobox.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
Hi Bob,
I'm curious, why is such a high freq (1-2MHz) needed for an application
such as this? Rather, why not in high 100's of Hz given that the eye
can't even discern above 30 Hz?
Thank you,
/\/elson
~~ Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any spring. ~~
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM3404.pdf
>
> This is one of a host of similar one to multi-channel dimmer
> controllers. The 3404 delivers up to of constant current
> to it's companion loads.
>
> It's a switcher. It hums at 1 to 2 Mhz with a butt-ugly
> wave-form rich in harmonics. This device needs to be
> a very compact layout (small antenna aperture) and be fitted
> with conduction filters on the input/output wires. It
> MIGHT be okay in a plastic enclosure . . . but a metal
> one never hurts.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
David E. Nelson wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> I'm curious, why is such a high freq (1-2MHz) needed for an
> application such as this? Rather, why not in high 100's of Hz given
> that the eye can't even discern above 30 Hz?
>
100's of Hz will put you in the audio range and possibly give a humm in
the audio portions of the airplane. Somewhere just above 30KHz would
seem like the best frequency range.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Leikam" <daveleikam(at)wi.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Electroair ignition |
Would you be willing to elaborate? If so, please do. Thanks.
Dave Leikam
RV-10 #40496
N89DA (Reserved)
Muskego, WI
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Laurence
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 7:41 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Electroair ignition
Yes
Peter
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Leikam
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 12:09 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com; RV-10 matronics
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electroair ignition
Does anyone have experience with Electroair ignitions? Compared to
Lightspeed?
Dave Leikam
RV-10 #40496
N89DA (Reserved)
Muskego, WI
Canopy trimming
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Avionics Back-Up Power |
Bob and the group
Since I had to put some weight in the tail of my RV-9A, I decided to install
a battery as back-up power to some avionics, the EFIS, the COMM Radio and
the Transponder.
My GRT EFIS has 2 power inputs, which are internally controlled (EFIS uses
the electrons from the highest source), so this is easy to wire.
However, the Radio (SL-30) and the Transponder (GTX-330) only have 1 power
input, therefore the question:
- How should I wire power, both from Main Battery and Back-Up Battery, to
the COMM Radio and the Transponder?
Help appreciated
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
>
>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>I'm curious, why is such a high freq (1-2MHz) needed for an application
>such as this? Rather, why not in high 100's of Hz given that the eye
>can't even discern above 30 Hz?
>
>Thank you,
>
> /\/elson
Great question. The problem of selecting an operating
frequency comes from a trade-off in reactances . . .
in the form of inductors and capacitors. The higher
you go in frequency, the more energy can be stored on
a given size inductor (assuming the core is loss less).
The higher you go in frequency, the easier it is to
couple energy via capacitors . . . both for the purpose
of bypassing and transfer.
In this case, the power supply is an energy conversion
system that stores a short pulse of current on and inductor
and then retrieves that energy at a different voltage level.
Given no other considerations for efficiency of the switching
devices and losses in the magnetics, one would LIKE to operate
at the highest possible frequency to drive down the physical
size of components.
Example. Step down transformers for 60 Hz AC delivered to
the house can handle about 60 watts per pound of transformer
core and copper. Airplanes use 400 Hz and the same transformer
weight and volume can handle over 6 times the power . . .
but the iron for the transformer must be tailored for low
losses at the higher frequency.
The high output LEDs need about 4v per lamp (whites) but
they're CURRENT driven devices. The really cool thing about
switchmode power supplies is that you can take energy in
at voltages in a much below or above the desired output
levels and bring the energy out as either a constant current
or constant votlage. The LM3404 is designed to operate in
the constant-current mode.
Batteries are not constant voltage devices . . . so the
most efficient flashlights will have a rather sophisticated
voltage to constant current generator that accepts battery
voltage over the full range useful output and delivers
a constant current to the lamp until the batteries are
truly drained. These converters need to be tiny and
efficient . . . highest practical operating frequency
is a strong consideration in meeting design goals.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Avionics Back-Up Power |
>Bob and the group
>
>
>Since I had to put some weight in the tail of my RV-9A, I decided to
>install a battery as back-up power to some avionics, the EFIS, the COMM
>Radio and the Transponder.
>
>
>My GRT EFIS has 2 power inputs, which are internally controlled (EFIS uses
>the electrons from the highest source), so this is easy to wire.
>
>However, the Radio (SL-30) and the Transponder (GTX-330) only have 1 power
>input, therefore the question:
>
>
> - How should I wire power, both from Main Battery and Back-Up Battery,
> to the COMM Radio and the Transponder?
How big a battery is it? How many batteries does the airplane
carry already . . . in other words do you already have an
AUX battery?
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson(at)pobox.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
Hi Ernest,
Ok, 30KHz makes sense. Although 30Hz may not be within the dynamic range
of the audio equipment, I could definately see a square wave's odd
harmonics (90 Hz and 150 Hz, etc IIRC) reaching up into a sensitive audio
area. Interesting.
So now, why the MHz freq the LM3404?
Thank you,
/\/elson
~~ Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any spring. ~~
On Fri, 29 Aug 2008, Ernest Christley wrote:
>
>
> David E. Nelson wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>> I'm curious, why is such a high freq (1-2MHz) needed for an application
>> such as this? Rather, why not in high 100's of Hz given that the eye can't
>> even discern above 30 Hz?
>>
> 100's of Hz will put you in the audio range and possibly give a humm in the
> audio portions of the airplane. Somewhere just above 30KHz would seem like
> the best frequency range.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Avionics Back-Up Power |
> >
> >Since I had to put some weight in the tail of my RV-9A, I decided to
> >install a battery as back-up power to some avionics, the EFIS, the COMM
> >Radio and the Transponder.
> >
> >
> >My GRT EFIS has 2 power inputs, which are internally controlled (EFIS
uses
> >the electrons from the highest source), so this is easy to wire.
> >
> >However, the Radio (SL-30) and the Transponder (GTX-330) only have 1
power
> >input, therefore the question:
> >
> >
> > - How should I wire power, both from Main Battery and Back-Up Battery,
> > to the COMM Radio and the Transponder?
>
> How big a battery is it? How many batteries does the airplane
> carry already . . . in other words do you already have an
> AUX battery?
>
> Bob . . .
I don't know exactly, because I still don't know the exact weight I need for
W & B, but I am planning for a battery around 10Ah
I do have 2 other batteries, Main and AUX, since my engine is an
electron-dependant Subaru.
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
David E. Nelson wrote:
>
> So now, why the MHz freq the LM3404?
I think Bob answered that well. Switching power supplies have an easier
time of it at higher frequencies. The power supply in the back of your
computer converts the 60Hz line signal up to something like 10KHz (IIRC)
for the same reason. It is much easier to transform and then rectify a
higher frequency signal to a clean output. The components can be much
smaller and there is less heat generated.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "sam(at)fr8dog.net" <sam.marlow(at)adelphia.net> |
| Subject: | 430W to Analog autopilot |
Does anybody know if there is a way to connect a Garmin 430W to a Piper IIIB analog
autopilot?Maybe where I can find information?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com> |
| Subject: | 430W to Analog autopilot |
You might try:
http://www.centuryflight.com/index.html
I think they made the autopilot...
Thanks!
Bill Denton
bdenton(at)bdenton.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of sam(at)fr8dog.net
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 3:31 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: 430W to Analog autopilot
Does anybody know if there is a way to connect a Garmin 430W to a Piper IIIB analog
autopilot?Maybe where I can find information?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Avionics Back-Up Power |
> How big a battery is it? How many batteries does the airplane
> carry already . . . in other words do you already have an
> AUX battery?
>
> Bob . . .
I don't know exactly, because I still don't know the exact weight I need
for W & B, but I am planning for a battery around 10Ah I do have 2 other
batteries, Main and AUX, since my engine is an electron-dependant Subaru.
Hmmmm . . . this is a bit problematic. Battery installation
philosophy in A/C calls for local disconnect (battery contactor
or relay). We also need to size the wiring so expected loads
and recharge currents do not experience too large voltage
drop. Finally, all wires need to be properly protected against
faults.
A 10 a.h. battery is good for about 10# of 'ballast'. If
you went further back on the airframe, could you get down
to say 5# of ballast? The reason for asking is that my present
image of this system suggests a plastic battery relay (one
of those 70A plastic things). A local fuse (use MAXI fuse
holder to make the battery(+) to battery relay jumper. Run
the battery feeder forward to the battery bus that runs
the panel during alternator out operations. We don't
want to leave that feeder hot while the airplane is
shut down . . . you need another relay at the forward
end of the feeder too and protect that end with another
MAXI fuse. The wire probably wants to be 10AWG and the
fuses at both ends are MAX30. Now you need a third battery
switch that closes both relays during flight operations.
This is electrically messy . . . not much better from
the pilot workload perspective either. As I mentioned
earlier, it might be better to minimize total added weight
by moving it as far back on the airframe as possible . . .
an letting it be dead-weight thus avoiding the bow-
of-spaghetti-wiring.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson(at)pobox.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
Hi Ernest,
My apologies. My intention was not to loose site of the original question
should this be read years from now in one of the archives. ;)
Take care,
/\/elson
~~ Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any spring. ~~
On Fri, 29 Aug 2008, Ernest Christley wrote:
>
>
> David E. Nelson wrote:
>>
>> So now, why the MHz freq the LM3404?
>
> I think Bob answered that well. Switching power supplies have an easier time
> of it at higher frequencies. The power supply in the back of your computer
> converts the 60Hz line signal up to something like 10KHz (IIRC) for the same
> reason. It is much easier to transform and then rectify a higher frequency
> signal to a clean output. The components can be much smaller and there is
> less heat generated.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Avionics Back-Up Power |
Bob
Thanks for your explanation and suggestions.
Anyway, which is the reason you say "we don't want to leave that feeder
hot
while the airplane is shut down=94 ?
If it=92s not so important, 2 relays and 1 switch could be avoided, and
pilot
workload as well=85
Carlos
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-
> server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> Sent: s=E1bado, 30 de Agosto de 2008 14:05
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Back-Up Power
>
>
>
> > How big a battery is it? How many batteries does the airplane
> > carry already . . . in other words do you already have an
> > AUX battery?
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
> I don't know exactly, because I still don't know the exact weight I
need
> for W & B, but I am planning for a battery around 10Ah I do have 2
other
> batteries, Main and AUX, since my engine is an electron-dependant
Subaru.
>
> Hmmmm . . . this is a bit problematic. Battery installation
> philosophy in A/C calls for local disconnect (battery contactor
> or relay). We also need to size the wiring so expected loads
> and recharge currents do not experience too large voltage
> drop. Finally, all wires need to be properly protected against
> faults.
>
> A 10 a.h. battery is good for about 10# of 'ballast'. If
> you went further back on the airframe, could you get down
> to say 5# of ballast? The reason for asking is that my present
> image of this system suggests a plastic battery relay (one
> of those 70A plastic things). A local fuse (use MAXI fuse
> holder to make the battery(+) to battery relay jumper. Run
> the battery feeder forward to the battery bus that runs
> the panel during alternator out operations. We don't
> want to leave that feeder hot while the airplane is
> shut down . . . you need another relay at the forward
> end of the feeder too and protect that end with another
> MAXI fuse. The wire probably wants to be 10AWG and the
> fuses at both ends are MAX30. Now you need a third battery
> switch that closes both relays during flight operations.
>
> This is electrically messy . . . not much better from
> the pilot workload perspective either. As I mentioned
> earlier, it might be better to minimize total added weight
> by moving it as far back on the airframe as possible . . .
> an letting it be dead-weight thus avoiding the bow-
> of-spaghetti-wiring.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Avionics Back-Up Power |
>Bob
>
>Thanks for your explanation and suggestions.
>
>
>Anyway, which is the reason you say "we don't want to leave that feeder
>hot while the airplane is shut down ?
>
>If it s not so important, 2 relays and 1 switch could be avoided, and
>pilot workload as well&
It's just not done (at least in the TC aircraft world) both for maintenance
and crash safety. How would you propose to wire it?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Watsonville Weekend Seminar Date Set |
The 'Connection is coming to the Watsonville, CA
of Aircrafter's Inc to present a weekend seminar
in aircraft electrical systems. Details are available
at:
http://aeroelectric.com/seminars/seminars.html
The Watsonville seminar reservations page is at:
http://aeroelectric.com/seminars/Watsonville.html
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com> |
| Subject: | 0.092 round post meter female connectors? |
Hi Bob,
Do you have a recommended source for the wire terminations required to
slide on the 0.092 posts on the back of electric engine instruments?
Also, if a special crimp tool is required (which I'm assuming), could
you recommend that as well?
Many thanks,
Steve Stearns
Boulder/Longmont, Colorado
CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less)
Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs)
Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Girard" <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 0.092 round post meter female connectors? |
Steve, I got those terminals from Wick's and Radio Shack has a cheap (~$10)
installation tool.
RickGirard
On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 8:57 AM, Steve Stearns wrote:
> >
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> Do you have a recommended source for the wire terminations required to
> slide on the 0.092 posts on the back of electric engine instruments? Also,
> if a special crimp tool is required (which I'm assuming), could you
> recommend that as well?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Steve Stearns
> Boulder/Longmont, Colorado
> CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less)
> Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs)
> Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Avionics Back-Up Power |
>
>
>
> >Bob
> >
> >Thanks for your explanation and suggestions.
> >
> >
> >
> >Anyway, which is the reason you say "we don't want to leave that feeder
> >hot while the airplane is shut down ?
> >
> >If it s not so important, 2 relays and 1 switch could be avoided, and
> >pilot workload as well&
>
> It's just not done (at least in the TC aircraft world) both for
maintenance
> and crash safety. How would you propose to wire it?
>
> Bob . . .
>
I am thinking in installing the battery in the tail deck (under the RV-9A
tail fairing), in order to obtain the longest arm to help with the Balance
of the aircraft.
The (-) terminal will be connected to a local Ground (which is the same I
used for the tail light), and the (+) terminal connected to a 16A fuse
located near the battery. (Is this fuse adequate to protect the wire and the
battery from any inadvertent short along the hot wire?)
By the way, regarding your observation that the wire should not be hot after
shutdown, because of maintenance and crash safety, my humble opinion is
that, in case of maintenance it is easy to disconnect the battery or pull
out the fuse, and in case of crash I do have many hot wires around.
>From the fuse I will run an AWG#14 wire to a buss behind the instrument
panel. Actually I'm planning this "buss" to be the "out" terminal of a
diode, and I am thinking to connect the Main Battery to the "In" terminal of
the Diode, to charge the Back-Up Battery.
>From that "buss" (the "out" terminal of the diode) I would run wires to each
of the Avionics to be fed with back-up power.
And that's where I come back to my initial question:
How do I wire from this back-up "buss", which is permanently hot, to each
of the Avionics (Comm Radio and Transponder) which only have one power
input?
I am prepared to be technically fustigated but please be gentle..
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
My two cents....
I think Jim Weir was not well-advised in publishing his article. There are tons
of DC-DC converters available for less than what it would cost you to build
one, even if you forget the bench full of test gear and the years of education,
and the labor required to do this job well.
My advice--
1) Buy the supply if you need one. www.Astrodyne.com, etc. or Google "DC-DC switcher supply"
2) Don't use a switcher supply if battery voltage DC will do.
3) If you really MUST make one, sign onto National Semiconductor's Web Bench where
they will design a supply to your specs, component list, PCB layout and all.
4) This is not a job for the amateur. Switchers supplies are hard work, especially
the quiet ones. Here's a free million-dollars-worth of education--"Spend
the extra money for a four-layer PCB".
5) The fact is that the LED will almost certainly last longer than the power supply.
This should give one pause....
"Inventor: A person who makes an ingenious arrangement of wheels,
levers and springs, and believes it civilization."
--Ambrose Bierce
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 1826#201826
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
>
>My two cents....
>
>I think Jim Weir was not well-advised in publishing his article. There
>are tons of DC-DC converters available for less than what it would cost
>you to build one, even if you forget the bench full of test gear and the
>years of education, and the labor required to do this job well.
>
>My advice--
>
>1) Buy the supply if you need one. www.Astrodyne.com, etc. or Google
>"DC-DC switcher supply"
Agreed. One is almost always $time$ ahead to "buy" rather than "make".
>2) Don't use a switcher supply if battery voltage DC will do.
The idea of "will do" needs defining. The thing that started this
thread was a quest to drive a high-output LED. These tend to be
in the hundreds of milliamps. Deriving a constant-current supply
is impossible without resorting to active electronics. Linear
drivers are as inefficient as resistors; energy -> heat
>3) If you really MUST make one, sign onto National Semiconductor's Web
>Bench where they will design a supply to your specs, component list, PCB
>layout and all.
Yeah . . . sorta. As I mentioned in the earlier post, LEDs like
to be driven constant current. The web-design applications on
most sites tend to be constant voltage supplies.
>4) This is not a job for the amateur. Switchers supplies are hard work,
>especially the quiet ones. Here's a free million-dollars-worth of
>education--"Spend the extra money for a four-layer PCB".
Multilayer boards can be helpful in reducing conducted
and radiated noise . . . but it's not essential nor is
it terribly expensive. Expresspcb.com will fabricate
4-layer boards for really cheap if you use their
software and order over the 'net using credit card.
However, I've not found it necessary to resort to multi-
layer topology. Compact layout with good grounds combined
with metallic enclosures drives your radiated emissions
issues more than anything else. Filters in the input/output
lines controls conducted emissions. NONE of the design-on-line
software programs speak to EMC compatibility issues. You add
the QUIET parts after you get the WORKING parts going.
>
>5) The fact is that the LED will almost certainly last longer than the
>power supply. This should give one pause....
Yup, $education$ IS always expensive. Zach and I are
taking on his first HVAC job in M.L. next Tuesday.
We expect to salvage a new install that the only local
guy attempted but fell short on some combination of skills,
materials, or tools. We're not going to even break even
on this effort due to spool up costs of nearly $1,000 in
tools and supplies (with more to come) plus the fact that
the job economics won't support paying what the service
is REALLY worth. However, we're going to add to our
$education$ while our customer is going to see a
demonstration of do-it-right-the-first-time. I expect to
add the contractor to Zach's further list of appreciative
and confident customers.
Risky? Yes. Give us pause? Yes . . . just long enough
to figure out that it's but the beginning of a long-term
goal. So if your short term goals are to get daylight
under the wheels on a 99% complete project, by all means
buy your LED drivers. But if figuring out how to DIY
fits your combination of curiosity and willingness to
add to a skill-set, go for it - and we'll help!
See: http://tinyurl.com/6djl2y
for a host of components and architectures for
constant current supplies. If one wants to make it
work first, then we'll tackle the make it quiet
part later.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com> |
| Subject: | Thermocouple question... |
Bob and group,
First I would like confirmation that I'm correctly interpreting my
inherited EGT/CHT installation. What I found on my pusher project was
that the EGT and CHT thermocouple wire ended on the firewall at a
terminal strip (and possibly even on the way to the terminal strip in
the CHT case). The rest of the run to the instrument (an EC-1) is in
copper and included another terminal strip junction and a lap-solder
junction at the instrument. The wires coming out of the instrument
appears to be tinned copper. Instrument manual clearly says the
extension wiring must be type "K" thermocouple wire but the wire exiting
the instrument (that used to be connectorized) appears to be tinned
copper. My interpretation is that they were using on the connections
to the instrument wires as the cold junction and assumed the temperature
at these junctions were the same as that in the instrument (which seems
like a good enough assumption). From this I would believe that the
readings used by the previous owner would be in error (presumably low)
by the difference in temperature between the back of the panel and under
the cowl. Is this right?
My intended fix is to use thermocouple extension wire continuously from
the thermocouple sensor wire up to behind the panel. And since I am
converting from one cylinder coverage to all four plus a spare, I'll be
adding a five position, double pole rotary switch to each set (EGT and
CHT). To both get the extra couples to cancel and to be able to fit
acceptable sized rotary switches, my plan is to run all the thermocouple
wires to a set of terminal blocks (or an equivalent) at convenient place
behind the panel. There the signals switch to smaller gauge copper
(four six-wire cables) up to the rotary switches (wire length less than
3', signal length less than 6'). Back at the terminal strip the
post-switch EGT pair and CHT pair go back to type "K" extension wire and
run back up to the instrument for connection (via connectors in place
of lap-joints) for correctly located "cold" junctions. Did I get this
right? Is there a significant negative to the "less than six feet" of
signal path on copper behind the panel?
Thanks in advance,
Steve Stearns
Boulder/Longmont, Colorado
CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less)
Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs)
Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | New background image on aeroelectric.com |
Yesterday, Rich Girard added to the life-experiences of Dr. Dee and
myself with rides in his Trike. That's what I call getting
up close and personal to the flying experience! Got a picture of the
present state of 1K1 on short final and stuck it up on aeroelectric.com
as the background picture. You can see the new 2000' extension of
the runway in the distance. The ol' cow pasture has become a 'real'
airport.
Scenes for the movie Gypsy Moth were filmed at 1K1. It was still
a sod strip then. We had a sign on the wall of the big hangar
making note of the fact that Burt Lancaster used it for a
dressing room during the filming.
I note that the runway is now 17/35 . . . seems the compass-
north has moved enough to justify re-numbering the runway.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
| From: | "Brantel" <bchesteen(at)hughes.net> |
Guys,
We already have a cheap OTS driver available, what I want to know is how to put
it on an airplane and keep it from trashing my airband radio gear with RFI noise.....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 1850#201850
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph Finch" <rgf(at)dcn.davis.ca.us> |
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
I fully agree. Describing this is the same as a handyman magazine
describing how to design wall studs. Huh? As a kitplane builder I don't
want to design and build fundamental electrical/electronic devices. If I
did I'd be subscribing to ARRL or similar.
Instead, Kitplanes should have electrical articles that either describe
basic technique (for the steady stream of beginners) or higher-level issues
like connecting displays/autopilots/GPSs, maybe some of the APRS stuff,
maybe electronic ignitions...
Given Mr. Weir's well-deserved reputation as an abusive hot-head in public
forums, and his poor reputation as a seller in VAF, maybe Kitplanes should
consider someone else writing the electrical articles. Bob?
Ralph Finch
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M.
Jones
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 10:45 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver
-->
My two cents....
I think Jim Weir was not well-advised in publishing his article. There are
tons of DC-DC converters available for less than what it would cost you to
build one, even if you forget the bench full of test gear and the years of
education, and the labor required to do this job well.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Gilroy" <egilroy(at)gmail.com> |
Hello:
Been a member for a few weeks now, trying to figure out a problem on a
club 172 (building a RV-8).
The term "dancing" seems to be applied to what is happening. With light
load on (no landing/taxi lights, pitot heat, etc) the ammeter makes a
rhythmic swing around the zero point of the meter. I would guess 60-80 times
per second. This started a year ago and our A+P says no big deal, at least 3
ships at our airport have the same problem!!! With a heavy, full load (turn
everything on), ammeter firms right up.
I had a nasty alternator/battery failure last november inside the NYC VFR
corridor (no place to lose your comm!!!) and replaced alternator + regulator
but this problem stills haunts us. We recently swapped the regulator with
another, no joy.
Ideas on how to proceed?
Thanks... Ed
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Edward Christian <edchristian(at)knology.net> |
| Subject: | D-100 Encoder Help |
Just rewired new instrument panel in RV-6.
Everything works except the altitude encoder?
Dynon D-100 EFIS (using this as encoder)
From the DB25 PIN #13 goes out and splits to:
1. Garmin 300XL Nav/Comm for altitude input - goes to
pin 17 (RS 232 input)
2. To Dynon Altitude Encoder Converter (to grey scale)
then to King KT-76A Transponder (Grey Code connections)
Anybody have experience with this setup? Does anyone know the
specific settings in D-100 and Garmin 300XL I need to change?
Thanks,
Ed
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Walstroom (Isbeschikbaar)" <walstroom(at)isbeschikbaar.nl> |
| Subject: | Re: D-100 Encoder Help |
Did you check your baudrates ? 9600 bps.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Edward Christian" <edchristian(at)knology.net>
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 12:34 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: D-100 Encoder Help
>
>
> Just rewired new instrument panel in RV-6.
>
> Everything works except the altitude encoder?
>
> Dynon D-100 EFIS (using this as encoder)
>
> From the DB25 PIN #13 goes out and splits to:
>
> 1. Garmin 300XL Nav/Comm for altitude input - goes to
> pin 17 (RS 232 input)
>
> 2. To Dynon Altitude Encoder Converter (to grey scale)
> then to King KT-76A Transponder (Grey Code connections)
>
> Anybody have experience with this setup? Does anyone know the
> specific settings in D-100 and Garmin 300XL I need to change?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ed
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Thermocouple question... |
>
>Bob and group,
>
>First I would like confirmation that I'm correctly interpreting my
>inherited EGT/CHT installation. What I found on my pusher project was
>that the EGT and CHT thermocouple wire ended on the firewall at a terminal
>strip (and possibly even on the way to the terminal strip in the CHT
>case). The rest of the run to the instrument (an EC-1) is in copper and
>included another terminal strip junction and a lap-solder junction at the
>instrument. The wires coming out of the instrument appears to be tinned
>copper. Instrument manual clearly says the extension wiring must be type
>"K" thermocouple wire but the wire exiting the instrument (that used to be
>connectorized) appears to be tinned copper. My interpretation is
>that they were using on the connections to the instrument wires as the
>cold junction and assumed the temperature at these junctions were the same
>as that in the instrument (which seems like a good enough
>assumption). From this I would believe that the readings used by the
>previous owner would be in error (presumably low) by the difference in
>temperature between the back of the panel and under the cowl. Is this right?
Yes . . .
>My intended fix is to use thermocouple extension wire continuously from
>the thermocouple sensor wire up to behind the panel. And since I am
>converting from one cylinder coverage to all four plus a spare, I'll be
>adding a five position, double pole rotary switch to each set (EGT and
>CHT). To both get the extra couples to cancel and to be able to fit
>acceptable sized rotary switches, my plan is to run all the thermocouple
>wires to a set of terminal blocks (or an equivalent) at convenient place
>behind the panel. There the signals switch to smaller gauge copper (four
>six-wire cables) up to the rotary switches (wire length less than 3',
>signal length less than 6'). Back at the terminal strip the post-switch
>EGT pair and CHT pair go back to type "K" extension wire and run back up
>to the instrument for connection (via connectors in place of lap-joints)
>for correctly located "cold" junctions. Did I get this right? Is there a
>significant negative to the "less than six feet" of signal path on copper
>behind the panel?
How many total measurement points are you installing? "four,
6-wire cables" brings an image of 24 conductors for 12
thermocouples total. One of my favorite "tiny" switches
for thermocouples is a Grayhill GH5602 . . .
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=GH5602-ND
which only handles 6 thermocouples. If you need a full 12
positions, then consider the Grayhill GH7103
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=GH7103-ND
which is also quite compact.
Consider using T/C wire all the way from the splices
at the engine couples, through the switch and to the instrument.
You can use "connectors" in the form of d-subs (use
machined pins and 4-quad crimp tools to install) and/or
2-screw barrier strips to join K-wire to K-wire but avoid
k-wire to copper joints until you are at the rear of the
instrument case. Suggest TT-K-24S wire at:
http://www.omega.com/pptst/XC_K_TC_WIRE.html
You can get this wire in short amounts for just over
a dollar a foot. See quote form at the bottom of
the page cited above.
I think I'd bring copper wires at the instrument out to
a female wire-to-wire connector (Omega SMPW-K-MF) shown on
http://www.omega.com/pptst/SMPW_SMP_HMP_HMPW.html
You could bond the connector off the instrument's pigtail
to the back of the instrument case with E6000. Depending
on room inside the instrument, you might be able to
even modify the instrument to accept a midge panel jack
as shown in:
http://www.omega.com/pptst/MPJ.html
The 'secret' to accurate thermocouples is do-unto-Chromel-
as-you-do-unto-Alumel all the way from the temp-sense
junction to the instrument . . . even inside the instrument
if possible but at the back of the case would probably
suffice.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Avionics Back-Up Power |
I am thinking in installing the battery in the tail deck (under the RV-9A
tail fairing), in order to obtain the longest arm to help with the Balance
of the aircraft.
The (-) terminal will be connected to a local Ground (which is the same I
used for the tail light), and the (+) terminal connected to a 16A fuse
located near the battery. (Is this fuse adequate to protect the wire and
the battery from any inadvertent short along the hot wire?).
Sure, fuses are fast and tend to limit energy in
the fault to the lowest practical values.
By the way, regarding your observation that the wire should not be hot
after shutdown, because of maintenance and crash safety, my humble opinion
is that, in case of maintenance it is easy to disconnect the battery or
pull out the fuse, and in case of crash I do have many hot wires around
If this meets your design goals, then go for it!
From the fuse I will run an AWG#14 wire to a buss behind the instrument
panel. Actually Im planning this buss to be the out terminal of a
diode, and I am thinking to connect the Main Battery to the In terminal
of the Diode, to charge the Back-Up Battery.
From that buss (the out terminal of the diode) I would run wires to
each of the Avionics to be fed with back-up power.
And thats where I come back to my initial question:
How do I wire from this back-up buss, which is permanently hot, to each
of the Avionics (Comm Radio and Transponder) which only have one power input?
Okay, you already have two batteries and you've
suggested that the always hot wire does not violate
your design goals. You've also stated a desire not
to add switches.
I am prepared to be technically fustigated but please be gentle.
Not a problem. If I understand your design goals
accurately, then how about simply adding the second
battery in parallel to the battery that is already
tasked with running the panel when the alternator is
off line. Fuses at both ends protects the wire,
minimized parts count and avoids voltage drops
associated with diodes.
There's much M-Squared (mythology and misunderstanding)
about paralleling batteries. It is true that any number
of batteries may be paralleled for the purpose of
charging them on a constant voltage source. All
batteries will accept what ever energy they are capable
of holding. Any number of batteries may be paralleled
for the purpose of discharging them and aside from
shorted-cell failures (exceedingly rare in RG batteries)
all paralleled batteries will deliver all their contained
energy to the load irrespective of their size or condition.
Energy storage abilities of the tail-battery will
be seamlessly added to those of the existing panel-
battery if you simply parallel them.
For the purposes of supporting good recharging times
on the tail battery and minimizing voltage drop on that
long run, I'll suggest 10AWG wire and 20A MAXI fuses at both
ends.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
>
>I fully agree. Describing this is the same as a handyman magazine
>describing how to design wall studs. Huh? As a kitplane builder I don't
>want to design and build fundamental electrical/electronic devices. If I
>did I'd be subscribing to ARRL or similar.
>
>Instead, Kitplanes should have electrical articles that either describe
>basic technique (for the steady stream of beginners) or higher-level issues
>like connecting displays/autopilots/GPSs, maybe some of the APRS stuff,
>maybe electronic ignitions...
????? I would REALLY like to see the OBAM aviation publications
rise to the levels of expertise and pioneering spirit of say
Contact magazine. Some of their stuff gets really technical but
the articles have enough lay-speak to encourage the motivated
and interested among us to pursue opportunities to learn.
There are PLENTY of cook-book publications out there. I
would expect many of the folks who hang out here on the
List are intrigued with doing things that expand their
understanding if not their core competencies while also
being served with proofed recipes for success.
There's room (and a need) for well written and practical
articles in all disciplines and at levels of expertise in our
craft. I too would be delighted if folks with expertise in
the arenas you've cited were members of this List . . .
but what we have is what we have . . .
>Given Mr. Weir's well-deserved reputation as an abusive hot-head in public
>forums, and his poor reputation as a seller in VAF, maybe Kitplanes should
>consider someone else writing the electrical articles. Bob?
I have spoken with the folk at Kitplanes but not in the last ten
years or more. I think I even submitted an article or two but the feedback
at the time suggested that their technical writing needs were
covered.
So without investing $time$ in discussion of how good/bad anyone
else is, let us tend to our house for the purposes of
enlightening our family . . . irrespective of how their goals might
stack up the goals of others.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dancing Ammeter |
>Hello:
>
> Been a member for a few weeks now, trying to figure out a problem on a
> club 172 (building a RV-8).
>
> The term "dancing" seems to be applied to what is happening. With
> light load on (no landing/taxi lights, pitot heat, etc) the ammeter makes
> a rhythmic swing around the zero point of the meter. I would guess 60-80
> times per second. This started a year ago and our A+P says no big deal,
> at least 3 ships at our airport have the same problem!!! With a heavy,
> full load (turn everything on), ammeter firms right up.
>
> I had a nasty alternator/battery failure last november inside the NYC
> VFR corridor (no place to lose your comm!!!) and replaced alternator +
> regulator but this problem stills haunts us. We recently swapped the
> regulator with another, no joy.
>
> Ideas on how to proceed?
See list-server thread at:
http://tinyurl.com/6fb32p
also top of column 2 on the last page of:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Regulators/Zeftronics/R15V00_Ford_Style_Reulator.pdf
and column 2, third paragraph, page 4 of
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grnding.pdf
It'a a 99% sure deal that if you start with the circuit
breaker at the bus and replace and/or clean-refurbish
ALL metallic joints between the bus and the voltage
regulator, the problem will go away for the twenty+
years it took for the root cause of the problem to
build up.
I've never encountered a mechanic that had heard of
this nor an instructor that included it in his/her
teachings. The slow build of TOTAL resistance in
the power path that supplies field current AND
shares bus voltage sense duties will eventually cause
ALL airplanes to do this. The Cessnas are the worst
because of the gross numbers of metallic joints in
this power path.
Replacing ONE of the many components may cause it
go reduce or go away leading the observer to believe
he/she has "slain the dragon". In fact, until all
the dragons are cleaned out, others will grow to
sufficient size to become the triggering event.
Metallic joint include those inside the breaker,
master switch, any OV relays, connector pins,
and crimps to wires. Each is small but they all
add up.
An alternative is to replace the stock 'ford' style
regulator with a more modern device that has a
separate bus voltage sense wire apart from that
which carries field current.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
>
>Guys,
>
>We already have a cheap OTS driver available, what I want to know is how
>to put it on an airplane and keep it from trashing my airband radio gear
>with RFI noise.....
Which driver are you using. What currents flow in the
leads that attach to the device. Which radios are
being affected and have you determined whether the
noise is getting in through audio, power or antenna
leads?
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David M" <ainut(at)hiwaay.net> |
| Subject: | New Thermocouple question... |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: D-100 Encoder Help |
>
>
>Just rewired new instrument panel in RV-6.
>
>Everything works except the altitude encoder?
>
>Dynon D-100 EFIS (using this as encoder)
>
> From the DB25 PIN #13 goes out and splits to:
>
>1. Garmin 300XL Nav/Comm for altitude input - goes to
> pin 17 (RS 232 input)
>
>2. To Dynon Altitude Encoder Converter (to grey scale)
> then to King KT-76A Transponder (Grey Code connections)
>
>Anybody have experience with this setup? Does anyone know the
>specific settings in D-100 and Garmin 300XL I need to change?
When you use one encoder to drive more than one load,
it's customary to isolate the two loads from each other
by means of a set of diodes in each data line wire from
each load. Transcal encoder installation manuals talk
about this. See pages 37 and 38 of
http://www.trans-cal.com/882189rA.pdf
Given that the KT-76 is not a "modern" device, I suspect
leads out of the King transponder would benefit from
addition of diodes. 1N4148 or similar have been used
with success but a Schottky diode is preferred. See
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=SD101CDICT-ND
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=497-2493-1-ND
Check the Garmin manual for "diode isolation" of the
encoder data leads . . . or call the factor. It MIGHT
need them too.
One way to confirm that diode isolation is a viable avenue for
investigation is see if the two users of altitude information
work with the other user disconnected.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: D-100 Encoder Help (OOPS!) |
>
>
>Did you check your baudrates ? 9600 bps.
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>From: "Edward Christian" <edchristian(at)knology.net>
>Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 12:34 AM
>To:
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: D-100 Encoder Help
>
>>
>>
>>Just rewired new instrument panel in RV-6.
>>
>>Everything works except the altitude encoder?
>>
>>Dynon D-100 EFIS (using this as encoder)
>>
>> From the DB25 PIN #13 goes out and splits to:
>>
>>1. Garmin 300XL Nav/Comm for altitude input - goes to
>>pin 17 (RS 232 input)
>>
>>2. To Dynon Altitude Encoder Converter (to grey scale)
>>then to King KT-76A Transponder (Grey Code connections)
>>
>>Anybody have experience with this setup? Does anyone know the
>>specific settings in D-100 and Garmin 300XL I need to change?
I got lost. I thought we were talking parallel connections
to both loads. If the Garmin is able to accept either
grey-code parallel OR serial data, then hook up only the
serial data line from the Dynon. Leave the grey-code lines
at the Garmin floating.
The King needs parallel grey-code so you would hook
only the King transponder to the Dynon's parallel data
output.
This configuration would not allow the two loads to affect
each other and the diode isolation I spoke to earlier
is not applicable. If there are choices of baud-rate
for either the Dynon or Garmin, of course, they should
be matched.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
| From: | "Brantel" <bchesteen(at)hughes.net> |
Bob,
I and several others have tried the wired buck puck by LEDDynamics:
http://www.ledsupply.com/03023-d-n-1000.php
I think most if not all of these different types of drivers from LEDDynamics have
similar circuits in them and similar noise issues.
I personally have the 1000mA version with two parallel runs of three K2 stars in
series for 500mA on each series string of 3 LED's. This 6 LED's total side
of the airplane.
I do not have a panel mounted radio yet to try but several others have tried them
with the SL30 with no success. I do however have a handheld with similar problems
when used near these drivers.
The symptoms that most report with panel mount radios is noise over the headsets
and reduced sensitivity (distant signals go quiet) when the LED driver is powered
on. Handheld goes nuts (tons of static/noise/inability to squelch it out)
when within 50ft of these things while running the handheld on separate battery
power.
The literature for the driver says to put a 220uF cap across the power leads to
the driver when operating with long input leads. Most report that this does
nothing to help the noise issue.
Others have went a step farther and installed a 220uF cap and a .1uF cap in parallel
across the input leads and this reduced the audible noise on the panel mount
radio but had no effect on the reduced sensitivity.
Still another went a step farther and tried the same on the input and outputs of
the driver with the same results. Reduced the audible noise on the panel mount
radio but had no effect on the reduced sensitivity.
And as a final straw, one guy put both the caps on the input leads and also added
a loop thru a ferrite bead optimized for the airband on the input leads, output
leads, and the wires going to and coming from his audio panel and panel mount
radio. This eliminated the audible noise on the panel mount radio but had
no effect on the reduced sensitivity (turn off the driver and distant stations
come in loud and clear, turn on the driver and they go quiet, seems to trigger
the active noise reduction circuits of the panel mount radio when the noise
floor is raised).
The only thing we have not tried is to put this whole mess in a sealed aluminum
box and ground it.
There are a bunch of us over on the VAF site that would love to get these things
working with our airplanes. The driver is just too simple and inexpensive.
There has to be some relativly simple fix for this. These drivers have great
constant current, run at wide voltage ranges, work great with the high power
LED's, and produce little to no heat. If it was not for this noise issue, the
perfect thing for us....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 1904#201904
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bret Smith" <smithhb(at)tds.net> |
| Subject: | New background image on aeroelectric.com |
Hey Bob, we can see a nice view of your house on the right before the
threshold...
Bret Smith
RV-9A N16BL
Blue Ridge, Ga
www.FlightInnovations.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 5:28 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: New background image on aeroelectric.com
Yesterday, Rich Girard added to the life-experiences of Dr. Dee and myself
with rides in his Trike. That's what I call getting up close and personal to
the flying experience! Got a picture of the present state of 1K1 on short
final and stuck it up on aeroelectric.com as the background picture. You can
see the new 2000' extension of the runway in the distance. The ol' cow
pasture has become a 'real'
airport.
Scenes for the movie Gypsy Moth were filmed at 1K1. It was still a sod strip
then. We had a sign on the wall of the big hangar making note of the fact
that Burt Lancaster used it for a dressing room during the filming.
I note that the runway is now 17/35 . . . seems the compass- north has moved
enough to justify re-numbering the runway.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sam Hoskins" <sam.hoskins(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New background image on aeroelectric.com |
Is that an all-electric trike?
Sam
On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 4:28 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> wrote:
> Yesterday, Rich Girard added to the life-experiences of Dr. Dee and
> myself with rides in his Trike. That's what I call getting
> up close and personal to the flying experience! Got a picture of the
> present state of 1K1 on short final and stuck it up on aeroelectric.com
> as the background picture. You can see the new 2000' extension of
> the runway in the distance. The ol' cow pasture has become a 'real'
> airport.
>
> Scenes for the movie Gypsy Moth were filmed at 1K1. It was still
> a sod strip then. We had a sign on the wall of the big hangar
> making note of the fact that Burt Lancaster used it for a
> dressing room during the filming.
>
> I note that the runway is now 17/35 . . . seems the compass-
> north has moved enough to justify re-numbering the runway.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------)
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Wickert <jimw_btg(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
I had a conversation with an engineer from the mfg of the Buck Puck and the very
first thing he suggested is to package the PWS in a container. Just going to
try this? Hope he is right.
Taks care
Jim Wickert
Vision #159
-----Original Message-----
>From: Brantel <bchesteen(at)hughes.net>
>Sent: Aug 31, 2008 10:15 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver
>
>
>Bob,
>
>I and several others have tried the wired buck puck by LEDDynamics:
>
>http://www.ledsupply.com/03023-d-n-1000.php
>
>I think most if not all of these different types of drivers from LEDDynamics have
similar circuits in them and similar noise issues.
>
>I personally have the 1000mA version with two parallel runs of three K2 stars
in series for 500mA on each series string of 3 LED's. This 6 LED's total side
of the airplane.
>
>I do not have a panel mounted radio yet to try but several others have tried them
with the SL30 with no success. I do however have a handheld with similar
problems when used near these drivers.
>
>The symptoms that most report with panel mount radios is noise over the headsets
and reduced sensitivity (distant signals go quiet) when the LED driver is powered
on. Handheld goes nuts (tons of static/noise/inability to squelch it out)
when within 50ft of these things while running the handheld on separate battery
power.
>
>The literature for the driver says to put a 220uF cap across the power leads to
the driver when operating with long input leads. Most report that this does
nothing to help the noise issue.
>
>Others have went a step farther and installed a 220uF cap and a .1uF cap in parallel
across the input leads and this reduced the audible noise on the panel
mount radio but had no effect on the reduced sensitivity.
>
>Still another went a step farther and tried the same on the input and outputs
of the driver with the same results. Reduced the audible noise on the panel mount
radio but had no effect on the reduced sensitivity.
>
>And as a final straw, one guy put both the caps on the input leads and also added
a loop thru a ferrite bead optimized for the airband on the input leads, output
leads, and the wires going to and coming from his audio panel and panel
mount radio. This eliminated the audible noise on the panel mount radio but had
no effect on the reduced sensitivity (turn off the driver and distant stations
come in loud and clear, turn on the driver and they go quiet, seems to trigger
the active noise reduction circuits of the panel mount radio when the noise
floor is raised).
>
>The only thing we have not tried is to put this whole mess in a sealed aluminum
box and ground it.
>
>There are a bunch of us over on the VAF site that would love to get these things
working with our airplanes. The driver is just too simple and inexpensive.
There has to be some relativly simple fix for this. These drivers have great
constant current, run at wide voltage ranges, work great with the high power
LED's, and produce little to no heat. If it was not for this noise issue, the
perfect thing for us....
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 1904#201904
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David M" <ainut(at)hiwaay.net> |
| Subject: | New Thermocouple question... |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David M" <ainut(at)hiwaay.net> |
| Subject: | New Thermocouple question... |
=======AVGMAIL-48BB705F0000=======--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David M" <ainut(at)hiwaay.net> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Gilroy" <egilroy(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dancing Ammeter |
Bob:
I see that I have stepped in a streaming pile on a path that others have
blazed before me !!!
As for the excellent references, they describe the situation exactly, I
will investigate as you suggest.
Many thanks...
Ed
On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 9:22 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
>
>
>> Hello:
>>
>> Been a member for a few weeks now, trying to figure out a problem on a
>> club 172 (building a RV-8).
>>
>> The term "dancing" seems to be applied to what is happening. With light
>> load on (no landing/taxi lights, pitot heat, etc) the ammeter makes a
>> rhythmic swing around the zero point of the meter. I would guess 60-80 times
>> per second. This started a year ago and our A+P says no big deal, at least 3
>> ships at our airport have the same problem!!! With a heavy, full load (turn
>> everything on), ammeter firms right up.
>>
>> I had a nasty alternator/battery failure last november inside the NYC
>> VFR corridor (no place to lose your comm!!!) and replaced alternator +
>> regulator but this problem stills haunts us. We recently swapped the
>> regulator with another, no joy.
>>
>> Ideas on how to proceed?
>>
>
>
> See list-server thread at:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/6fb32p
>
> also top of column 2 on the last page of:
>
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Regulators/Zeftronics/R15V00_Ford_Style_Reulator.pdf
>
> and column 2, third paragraph, page 4 of
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grnding.pdf
>
> It'a a 99% sure deal that if you start with the circuit
> breaker at the bus and replace and/or clean-refurbish
> ALL metallic joints between the bus and the voltage
> regulator, the problem will go away for the twenty+
> years it took for the root cause of the problem to
> build up.
>
> I've never encountered a mechanic that had heard of
> this nor an instructor that included it in his/her
> teachings. The slow build of TOTAL resistance in
> the power path that supplies field current AND
> shares bus voltage sense duties will eventually cause
> ALL airplanes to do this. The Cessnas are the worst
> because of the gross numbers of metallic joints in
> this power path.
>
> Replacing ONE of the many components may cause it
> go reduce or go away leading the observer to believe
> he/she has "slain the dragon". In fact, until all
> the dragons are cleaned out, others will grow to
> sufficient size to become the triggering event.
>
> Metallic joint include those inside the breaker,
> master switch, any OV relays, connector pins,
> and crimps to wires. Each is small but they all
> add up.
>
> An alternative is to replace the stock 'ford' style
> regulator with a more modern device that has a
> separate bus voltage sense wire apart from that
> which carries field current.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
| From: | "Brantel" <bchesteen(at)hughes.net> |
Jim
Let us know how it goes, rat shack has a nice small all aluminum project box that
should work well for this.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 1939#201939
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | New background image on aeroelectric.com |
>
>Hey Bob, we can see a nice view of your house on the right before the
>threshold...
I wish. the airport had a covenant with houses on both sides
of the runway for access by aircraft owners. The house
you're referring to is the newest in the neighborhood and
across the street from the airport. A house owned by the
guy who developed the land in the first place is not visible
behind the Trike's control hoop. When he started to develop
the land across the street, ALL the lots were platted for
homes . . . just what we needed. Houses 400 feet of the
end of the runway!
I think there's been a meeting of the minds now for
protecting the land off the runway approaches. I almost
bought a house out there. In
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/1K1_Spring_1989.jpg
the southernmost property just west of the runway
can be seen to be surrounded by trees etc. That was
a junker house that some guy was trying to build
by himself. What he was assembling would never be
habitable and when he died, the property sold for
less than land value because the new owner would
have to remove the construction. It was a deal but
I had way too much on my plate to really consider it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Thermocouple question... |
Bob,
Thanks for the help. I'm having a lot of fun on my re-wiring project
but it is really time-consuming... I really appreciate having your
book, you and the group available to sanity check my details...
> **How many total measurement points are you installing? "four,
> 6-wire cables" brings an image of 24 conductors for 12
> thermocouples total.**
Each of the 6-wire cables is basically used as a copper intermediary for
one of the switch poles (four total for the combinations of EGT/CHT and
Yellow/Red). Each cable has 5 goes-to-the-switch signals (from one side
of 5 thermocouples) and a sixth wire that goes from that cables
switch-pole common to a section of TC wire required to move the cold
junction back up to the instrument. This gives 10 thermocouples total
(which I'll think about extending to six since the grayhill switch will
let me).
> **One of my favorite "tiny" switches
> for thermocouples is a Grayhill GH5602 . . .
>
> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=GH5602-ND
>
> which only handles 6 thermocouples. **
Those grayhill switches look exactly like what I was getting ready to go
look for.
> **Consider using T/C wire all the way from the splices
> at the engine couples, through the switch and to the instrument...
but avoid
> k-wire to copper joints until you are at the rear of the
> instrument case. **
How do I bond TC wire directly to the switch without having a copper
intermediary? That seems like a better approach but I don't have any
good ideas on how to do it (I figured silver-soldering to the switch
wasn't likely to work...). Since all my ideas required a copper
intermediary, I figured I might as well take advantage of it and remote
the TC to copper junctions (other than the required cold-junctions
behind the instrument) a couple feet away from the crowded spot on the
panel where the switches and instrument reside.
If I do end up stuck with a copper intermediary, it seems like the run
from the switch to the instrument doesn't have to go back to the
pre-switch TC-to-copper junctions and therefore could be just a couple
of inches long (the switches will be located at the instrument). Since
each would still require a switch-to-copper junction at the switch, a
copper to TC junction, and a TC junction back to copper (at the
instrument for a cold junction) all within a few inches it seems a
kludgy way to do it but it does save running a pair of TC wires a couple
of feet in a wire-crowded area.
(Annoying theoretical thought follows...) Assuming the "new idea" still
balances all the thermocouples correctly (which I *think* it does), and
since the section of TC wire could be arbitrarily short (implying
arbitrarily iso-thermal) it's seems reasonable to argue that IF you knew
that the copper wire from the switch and the copper wire to the
instrument were the same alloys (which you don't) that the couples at
each end of the arbitrarily short TC wire would cancel and, therefore,
you could eliminate them without affect. The implication being that the
resulting performance would be equivalent to that with the cold couples
at the back of the instrument when, in fact, they aren't there. Clearly
I'm missing something here and don't have it all figured out yet...
> **Suggest TT-K-24S wire at:
>
> http://www.omega.com/pptst/XC_K_TC_WIRE.html
>
> **
I've got some of this wire in 20 Gauge for making thermocouples for
not-too-hot areas. For the 10' runs up to the panel, I've got some
EXPP-K-20S stranded "extension" wire (but need more...). I picked the
20 Gauge just to follow the "no airframe wire smaller than 22 Gage"
rule-of-thumb and the stranded variety for improved motion-related
durability. (Sounds like I might have over-thought the problem.) If
there is a good way to bond TC wire to the switch then I'll ditch the
copper intermediary and switch to the 24 Gauge extension wire for the
couple of feet required to go up to the switches.
I'm assuming it's not worth "home-brewing" from scratch either EGT
probes or plug-washer CHT probes so I haven't purchased any high-temp TC
wire. But can you replace the wire in plug-washer CHT probes and, if
so, do you have a part number for an appropriate wire to buy for that
purpose?
Seemingly simple principles sure lead to a lot of required details to
get it right. Sort of a Mandelbrot or "emergent behavior" sort of
thing.
Thanks in advance,
Steve Stearns
Boulder/Longmont, Colorado
CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less)
Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs)
Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John McKiernan" <rockyjs(at)mchsi.com> |
| Subject: | Re: D-100 Encoder Help |
Ed,
I have virtually the same setup except a Dynon D-180. The Dynon install
manual has you set the Altitude output to !:
The EFIS Altitude Encoder format must be set to
format number one. To change this setting, from the main menu, select: MORE
> SETUP > MORE > ALTENC. Press FRMAT until it reads "1."
Set to output 1 my King KT76A is working fine with respect to ATC.
The Garmin 300XL gives you two choices for serial altitude input:
Icarus-alt and shadin-alt. Neither of which is compatible to the Dynon
serial output of "1". I did have the Dynon output set to "4" which worked
on the 300XL, but wouldn't allow the Transponder to work. Maybe there is a
workaround to this problem using the serial stream? You could always feed
the 300xl with gray code split from the Dynon serial encoder.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger & Jean" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Avionics Back-Up Power |
Hmmmm . . . this is a bit problematic. Battery installation
philosophy in A/C calls for local disconnect (battery contactor
or relay). We also need to size the wiring so expected loads
and recharge currents do not experience too large voltage
drop. Finally, all wires need to be properly protected against
faults.
Bob . . .
Bob,
>From one of your recent postings, you mentioned that battery install
philosophy calls for a local disconnect. In the Z19RB the wires off the
busses at the 2 batteries are always hot. Are you saying that the fat wires
must be short or disconnected and it is OK to have small fused wires, always
hot going to the instrument panel and elsewhere?
Thanks,
Roger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger & Jean" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Z19RB with dual electronic ignition |
Bob,
I will be using the Z19RB schematic, modified to fit my application. I am
planning to have 2 fuel pumps in parallel and 2 electronic ignitions. May I
have your suggestions on the best modification to make this happen?
Roger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
>
>I had a conversation with an engineer from the mfg of the Buck Puck and
>the very first thing he suggested is to package the PWS in a
>container. Just going to try this? Hope he is right.
That's half the battle. Containers provide (1) attenuation
of radiated emissions and (2) ground reference for line filters
to attenuate conducted emissions.
A metallic enclosure MAY be necessary. Line filters are
the first thing to try. That's why I asked if the noise
conduction path had been identified in an earlier post. If
the noises are noted coming in through the antenna on
vor/com receivers, then the filters need tailoring for vhf
frequencies . . . MUCH smaller/easier than audio/LF
frequencies that plague other victims by conducting noise
out on power lines.
One observes by the packaging of the Buck Puck that it was
not designed to be a stand-alone product but a component
of a more comprehensive assembly. The elegant solution
for integrating this device into airplanes is to built
an adapter board that also mounts a d-sub connector.
The line filter components can be assembled on the board
along with the connector and power supply.
Once the filter components are wired in, you can test to
see if the noise went away. If not, mount the assembly in
a metal enclosure where the 'ground' side of the filters
are connected to that enclosure.
I'll lay out a board and get some WAG filter components
ordered. I need to know if there is continuity between
the LED- and Vin(-). If you can get me this bit of
info, I'll finish the board layout and get those ordered
too. Also, do you plan to use the CONTROL or REFERENCE
features of these devices?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dancing Ammeter |
>Bob:
>
> I see that I have stepped in a streaming pile on a path that others
> have blazed before me !!!
>
> As for the excellent references, they describe the situation exactly,
> I will investigate as you suggest.
>
> Many thanks...
>
>Ed
My pleasure sir! Let me know how it works out.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Avionics Back-Up Power |
Bob
As usual you've been very useful.
Thanks for your help
Carlos
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-
> server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
>
>
>
>
> I am thinking in installing the battery in the tail deck (under the RV-9A
> tail fairing), in order to obtain the longest arm to help with the Balance
> of the aircraft.
>
> The (-) terminal will be connected to a local Ground (which is the same I
> used for the tail light), and the (+) terminal connected to a 16A fuse
> located near the battery. (Is this fuse adequate to protect the wire and
> the battery from any inadvertent short along the hot wire?).
>
> Sure, fuses are fast and tend to limit energy in
> the fault to the lowest practical values.
>
> By the way, regarding your observation that the wire should not be hot
> after shutdown, because of maintenance and crash safety, my humble opinion
> is that, in case of maintenance it is easy to disconnect the battery or
> pull out the fuse, and in case of crash I do have many hot wires around.
>
> If this meets your design goals, then go for it!
>
> From the fuse I will run an AWG#14 wire to a buss behind the instrument
> panel. Actually I'm planning this "buss" to be the "out" terminal of a
> diode, and I am thinking to connect the Main Battery to the "In" terminal
> of the Diode, to charge the Back-Up Battery.
> From that "buss" (the "out" terminal of the diode) I would run wires to
> each of the Avionics to be fed with back-up power.
>
> And that's where I come back to my initial question:
>
> How do I wire from this back-up "buss", which is permanently hot, to each
> of the Avionics (Comm Radio and Transponder) which only have one power
input?
>
> Okay, you already have two batteries and you've
> suggested that the always hot wire does not violate
> your design goals. You've also stated a desire not
> to add switches.
>
> I am prepared to be technically fustigated but please be gentle..
>
> Not a problem. If I understand your design goals
> accurately, then how about simply adding the second
> battery in parallel to the battery that is already
> tasked with running the panel when the alternator is
> off line. Fuses at both ends protects the wire,
> minimized parts count and avoids voltage drops
> associated with diodes.
>
> There's much M-Squared (mythology and misunderstanding)
> about paralleling batteries. It is true that any number
> of batteries may be paralleled for the purpose of
> charging them on a constant voltage source. All
> batteries will accept what ever energy they are capable
> of holding. Any number of batteries may be paralleled
> for the purpose of discharging them and aside from
> shorted-cell failures (exceedingly rare in RG batteries)
> all paralleled batteries will deliver all their contained
> energy to the load irrespective of their size or condition.
>
> Energy storage abilities of the tail-battery will
> be seamlessly added to those of the existing panel-
> battery if you simply parallel them.
>
> For the purposes of supporting good recharging times
> on the tail battery and minimizing voltage drop on that
> long run, I'll suggest 10AWG wire and 20A MAXI fuses at both
> ends.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
>
>Bob,
>
>I and several others have tried the wired buck puck by LEDDynamics:
>
>http://www.ledsupply.com/03023-d-n-1000.php
>
>I think most if not all of these different types of drivers from
>LEDDynamics have similar circuits in them and similar noise issues.
>
>I personally have the 1000mA version with two parallel runs of three K2
>stars in series for 500mA on each series string of 3 LED's. This 6 LED's
>total side of the airplane.
>
>I do not have a panel mounted radio yet to try but several others have
>tried them with the SL30 with no success. I do however have a handheld
>with similar problems when used near these drivers.
Aha! if a hand-held has the problem, we know it's radiated
in through the antenna. That's what I would have guessed
but there's risk in guessing.
>The symptoms that most report with panel mount radios is noise over the
>headsets and reduced sensitivity (distant signals go quiet) when the LED
>driver is powered on. Handheld goes nuts (tons of static/noise/inability
>to squelch it out) when within 50ft of these things while running the
>handheld on separate battery power.
>
>The literature for the driver says to put a 220uF cap across the power
>leads to the driver when operating with long input leads. Most report
>that this does nothing to help the noise issue,
>
>Others have went a step farther and installed a 220uF cap and a .1uF cap
>in parallel across the input leads and this reduced the audible noise on
>the panel mount radio but had no effect on the reduced sensitivity.
>
>Still another went a step farther and tried the same on the input and
>outputs of the driver with the same results. Reduced the audible noise on
>the panel mount radio but had no effect on the reduced sensitivity.
>
>And as a final straw, one guy put both the caps on the input leads and
>also added a loop thru a ferrite bead optimized for the airband on the
>input leads, output leads, and the wires going to and coming from his
>audio panel and panel mount radio. This eliminated the audible noise on
>the panel mount radio but had no effect on the reduced sensitivity (turn
>off the driver and distant stations come in loud and clear, turn on the
>driver and they go quiet, seems to trigger the active noise reduction
>circuits of the panel mount radio when the noise floor is raised).
>
>The only thing we have not tried is to put this whole mess in a sealed
>aluminum box and ground it.
>
>There are a bunch of us over on the VAF site that would love to get these
>things working with our airplanes. The driver is just too simple and
>inexpensive. There has to be some relativly simple fix for this. These
>drivers have great constant current, run at wide voltage ranges, work
>great with the high power LED's, and produce little to no heat. If it was
>not for this noise issue, the perfect thing for us....
Okay, In another post I've offered to lay out a board that
will mount the Buck Puck and bring leads out to the aircraft
on a 9-pin D-sub. Are you using the Control or Reference
connections? Also, I need to know if there is electrical
continuity between Vin minus and LEDout minus connections.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger & Jean" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
>
>I had a conversation with an engineer from the mfg of the Buck Puck and
>the very first thing he suggested is to package the PWS in a
>container. Just going to try this? Hope he is right.
That's half the battle. Containers provide (1) attenuation
of radiated emissions and (2) ground reference for line filters
to attenuate conducted emissions.
A metallic enclosure MAY be necessary. Line filters are
the first thing to try. That's why I asked if the noise
conduction path had been identified in an earlier post. If
the noises are noted coming in through the antenna on
vor/com receivers, then the filters need tailoring for vhf
frequencies . . . MUCH smaller/easier than audio/LF
frequencies that plague other victims by conducting noise
out on power lines.
One observes by the packaging of the Buck Puck that it was
not designed to be a stand-alone product but a component
of a more comprehensive assembly. The elegant solution
for integrating this device into airplanes is to built
an adapter board that also mounts a d-sub connector.
The line filter components can be assembled on the board
along with the connector and power supply.
Once the filter components are wired in, you can test to
see if the noise went away. If not, mount the assembly in
a metal enclosure where the 'ground' side of the filters
are connected to that enclosure.
I'll lay out a board and get some WAG filter components
ordered. I need to know if there is continuity between
the LED- and Vin(-). If you can get me this bit of
info, I'll finish the board layout and get those ordered
too. Also, do you plan to use the CONTROL or REFERENCE
features of these devices?
If you are going to build a board, it would be good to keep all options
open.
Roger
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual |
Does anybody have, or knows where to download from, the Installation Manual
(not the User's Manual) for the Garmin GTX-330 Transponder?
Help appreciated
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
| From: | "Brantel" <bchesteen(at)hughes.net> |
Bob,
I am using the simple 4 wire version of the buck puck and do not intend to use
the control or reference functions but it would be great if those "could" be used
on this rig in the event someone wanted to strobe/dim/on-off control these
things for other applications in the plane.
I checked the continuity between the Vin Minus and LED minus and it does have 100%
continuity both directions (diode mode not required on meter).
I also checked the current on the input and it was 460mA @ 12vDC using a wall wart
powersupply.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2004#202004
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
| From: | "Brantel" <bchesteen(at)hughes.net> |
Bob,
I am using the simple 4 wire version of the buck puck and do not intend to use
the control or reference functions but it would be great if those "could" be used
on this rig in the event someone wanted to strobe/dim/on-off control these
things for other applications in the plane.
I checked the continuity between the Vin Minus and LED minus and it does have 100%
continuity both directions (diode mode not required on meter).
I also checked the current on the input and it was 460mA @ 12vDC using a wall wart
powersupply.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2005#202005
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual |
Carlos...
No problem...I just googled "garmin 330 transponder installation
manual" and came up with this:
http://tinyurl.com/6gnuqp
Harley
Carlos Trigo wrote:
>
> Does anybody have, or knows where to download from, the Installation
> Manual (not the User's Manual) for the Garmin GTX-330 Transponder?
>
>
>
> Help appreciated
>
> Carlos
>
> *
>
>
> *
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Agelesswings certifies that no virus is in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
>
>Bob,
>
>I am using the simple 4 wire version of the buck puck and do not intend to
>use the control or reference functions but it would be great if those
>"could" be used on this rig in the event someone wanted to
>strobe/dim/on-off control these things for other applications in the plane.
>
>I checked the continuity between the Vin Minus and LED minus and it does
>have 100% continuity both directions (diode mode not required on meter).
>
>I also checked the current on the input and it was 460mA @ 12vDC using a
>wall wart powersupply.
Very good. I've laid out a board that's 1.6" x 1.5" with a 9-pin
d-sub and couple-capped, pi-net filters on both power+ in and
LED+ out leads. I found a 100uH inductor in a 10mm x 10mm
footprint that's good for an amp of DC current.
The boards and inductors are on order. Capacitors and
connnectors are in stock. If you'd like to mail me your
Buck-Puck, I'll assemble it onto the board with the filter
and check it against my hand-held before I return it to
you for testing in your system.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual |
There is a bit newer revision J, Carlos let me know if I should send it
to you
Werner
Harley wrote:
> Carlos...
>
> No problem...I just googled "garmin 330 transponder installation
> manual" and came up with this:
> http://tinyurl.com/6gnuqp
>
> Harley
>
> Carlos Trigo wrote:
>>
>> Does anybody have, or knows where to download from, the Installation
>> Manual (not the Users Manual) for the Garmin GTX-330 Transponder?
>>
>> Help appreciated
>>
>> Carlos
>>
>> *
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> *
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> Agelesswings certifies that no virus is in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>
>>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
| From: | "Brantel" <bchesteen(at)hughes.net> |
Bob,
I'll just drop ship you a new one from the supplier. How do you want it, flying
leads or board mounted?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2030#202030
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
>
>Bob,
>
>I'll just drop ship you a new one from the supplier. How do you want it,
>flying leads or board mounted?
Board mounted.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual |
Thanks Harley
I wasn't so lucky or wise enough in my googling.
Carlos
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Harley
Sent: segunda-feira, 1 de Setembro de 2008 20:56
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual
Carlos...
No problem...I just googled "garmin 330 transponder installation manual"
and came up with this:
http://tinyurl.com/6gnuqp
Harley
Carlos Trigo wrote:
Does anybody have, or knows where to download from, the Installation Manual
(not the User's Manual) for the Garmin GTX-330 Transponder?
Help appreciated
Carlos
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri
bution
_____
Agelesswings certifies that no virus is in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tom Kelso <corvairkelso(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Ammeter and shunts |
Bob, I have a question regarding ammeters and shunts. I have some 15 amp dc meters
with internal shunt. I would like to be able to modify one to read 45 amps
(or 3 times origional) and one to read 225 (15 times)amps. I have access to
the internal shunt but do not know its value. It would be easy to snip the internal
shunt out leaving the meter wires intact. Is there a way to use external
shunts and include a resistor in the feed line to the meter to alter the scale?
I have access to 50 amp shunts and 200 amp shunts but have not seen 45 and
225 shunts. I could change the scale to 50 and 200. If you have already covered
this, please just include the link. Thanks, Tom
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Wilenius" <wilenius(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Avionics Back-Up Power |
Carlos,
You've probably thought of this but ... could you not move the 2nd battery
backwards into the tail? Too much W&B shift?
regards,
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Carlos
Trigo
Sent: August 29, 2008 12:17 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Back-Up Power
> >
> >Since I had to put some weight in the tail of my RV-9A, I decided to
> >install a battery as back-up power to some avionics, the EFIS, the COMM
> >Radio and the Transponder.
> >
> >
> >My GRT EFIS has 2 power inputs, which are internally controlled (EFIS
uses
> >the electrons from the highest source), so this is easy to wire.
> >
> >However, the Radio (SL-30) and the Transponder (GTX-330) only have 1
power
> >input, therefore the question:
> >
> >
> > - How should I wire power, both from Main Battery and Back-Up
Battery,
> > to the COMM Radio and the Transponder?
>
> How big a battery is it? How many batteries does the airplane
> carry already . . . in other words do you already have an
> AUX battery?
>
> Bob . . .
I don't know exactly, because I still don't know the exact weight I need
for W & B, but I am planning for a battery around 10Ah
I do have 2 other batteries, Main and AUX, since my engine is an
electron-dependant Subaru.
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Avionics Back-Up Power |
Hi Dave
I did thought of that but
1 - my Aux Batt is also an Odissey PC625 which doesn=92t fit under
the tail
fairing, and if I decided to put it somewhere between the baggage area
and
the tail tip, I would not be able to service/replace it
2 ' I need the Aux battery to be an exclusive back-up to my
electron-dependant engine, in case of alternator death and Main Battery
is
out of electrons
I know that 3 batteries look really overkill, mainly to Total Weight
=85.
Thanks anyway
Carlos
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Wilenius
Sent: ter=E7a-feira, 2 de Setembro de 2008 14:09
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Back-Up Power
Carlos,
You've probably thought of this but ... could you not move the 2nd
battery
backwards into the tail? Too much W&B shift?
regards,
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Carlos
Trigo
Sent: August 29, 2008 12:17 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Back-Up Power
> >
> >Since I had to put some weight in the tail of my RV-9A, I decided to
> >install a battery as back-up power to some avionics, the EFIS, the
COMM
> >Radio and the Transponder.
> >
> >
> >My GRT EFIS has 2 power inputs, which are internally controlled (EFIS
uses
> >the electrons from the highest source), so this is easy to wire.
> >
> >However, the Radio (SL-30) and the Transponder (GTX-330) only have 1
power
> >input, therefore the question:
> >
> >
> > - How should I wire power, both from Main Battery and Back-Up
Battery,
> > to the COMM Radio and the Transponder?
>
> How big a battery is it? How many batteries does the airplane
> carry already . . . in other words do you already have an
> AUX battery?
>
> Bob . . .
I don't know exactly, because I still don't know the exact weight I need
for
W & B, but I am planning for a battery around 10Ah
I do have 2 other batteries, Main and AUX, since my engine is an
electron-dependant Subaru.
Carlos
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.
matro
nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com> |
| Subject: | Noise Filter for Strobe power and regulator? |
Bob and group,
Looks like Radio Shack has obsoleted both noise filters in Bob's related
article. Does anyone have a recommendation on either an appropriate
replacement noise filter or an appropriate choke (I've got appropriate
caps...) for use at a strobe power supply?
2nd noise question: I'm planning on moving my "Ford Style" regulator up
into the nose of the longeze and adding an OVP module (with associated
5A breaker). I'm assuming the regulator noise is field-current-loop
noise which implies it shouldn't change much (loop the same, position of
regulator is different). Is there other regulator based noise I should
worry about?
(Sorry about the big increase in emails but I'm in the final detailing
stage of a complete rewiring of the Longeze and getting ready to drop $s
on parts)
Steve Stearns
Boulder/Longmont, Colorado
CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less)
Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs)
Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com> |
| Subject: | Wire availability? |
Bob and the Group,
I was hoping to find aircraft wire of the following types, please let me
know if you know where it's available (it may not exist...). I do have
less optimal substitutions for each if I can't find them.
8 & 10 gauge in both Red & Black
or both 8 & 10 gauge 2-wire (non-shielded) (better but I'm expecting to
have to use white singles at this point...)
20 gauge 2-wire (non-shielded)
20 gauge 3-wire (shielded)
22 gauge 2-wire (non-shielded)
24 gauge 8-wire (non-shielded)
Thanks in advance,
Steve Stearns
Boulder/Longmont, Colorado
CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less)
Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs)
Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vernon Little" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Vx Aviation Introduces New Cellphone Audio Product |
Here'a an announcement that I hope is of interest to Aeroelectric folks:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
ASX-2B device adds Stereo Music, Cellphone and Musicphone Capabilities to
Aircraft Audio Systems.
VANCOUVER, BC---September 2, 2008---Vx Aviation announced the introduction
of the ASX-2B Stereo Music & Cellphone Adapter that adds stereo music,
cellphone and musicphone capability to any intercom or radio installation in
non-certified aircraft.
Based on the AMX-2A stereo headphone music amplifier that was announced in
June 2008, the AMX-2B works seamlessly with virtually all monophonic and
stereo intercoms, audio panels, radios and other aircraft audio devices. Hi
fidelity circuitry in the device boosts music and cellphone power to provide
the clarity and volume required for effective use in noisy aircraft
environments. Integrated microphone circuitry allows aviation headsets to
be used for cellphone conversations as well as listening to music and
radio/intercom communications.
.... More information available on my website.
vern_little@vx-aviation.com
www.vx-aviation.com
Thanks, Vern
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charles Brame <chasb(at)satx.rr.com> |
Bob, et., al.,
My strobe lights blows its fuse. After replacing the 10A fuse, it
blew again when the Master Switch was turned on with the strobe power
off. The wire from the power bus to the switch checked okay. However,
the fast-on for the wire that goes to the strobe power pack was
charred. A continuity check of the switch shows a closed circuit
from the common terminal to the exterior switch mounting bolt and
knob, regardless of the switch position. So, I think I have isolated
the problem to the panel mounted strobe power switch being shorted
out internally.
Questions:
Do I have the right switch for the situation? The switch is a B&C 700
series, 1-3 On-On. Its on a 12 volt system. A single hot wire goes
from the power bus to the switch and from the switch to the power
pack. The power pack is locally grounded. All wires are 18 gauge.
Are these type switch failures common?
Any ideas of what could have caused the short?
Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB
San Antonio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch problem |
>Bob, et., al.,
>
>My strobe lights blows its fuse. After replacing the 10A fuse, it blew
>again when the Master Switch was turned on with the strobe power off. The
>wire from the power bus to the switch checked okay. However, the fast-on
>for the wire that goes to the strobe power pack was charred. A continuity
>check of the switch shows a closed circuit from the common terminal to the
>exterior switch mounting bolt and knob, regardless of the switch
>position. So, I think I have isolated the problem to the panel mounted
>strobe power switch being shorted out internally.
>
> Questions:
>
>Do I have the right switch for the situation? The switch is a B&C 700
>series, 1-3 On-On. Its on a 12 volt system. A single hot wire goes from
>the power bus to the switch and from the switch to the power pack. The
>power pack is locally grounded. All wires are 18 gauge.
>
>Are these type switch failures common?
I didn't think so . . . but it seems you've duplicated
a failure mode effect that was discovered in a strobe
system about 2 years ago. See:
http://tinyurl.com/2a2qqp
>Any ideas of what could have caused the short?
The working hypothesis is discussed in the failure
analysis. It would be interesting to get a current
draw signature from your strobe system . . . and
to find out if its the same brand as the one
involved in the earlier incident.
These switches are rated for plenty of current to
carry the strobe system currents I'm familiar with
but there may be something curious afoot here. In
any case, consider replacing the Carling device
with something heavier . . . A Honeywell Microswitch
11TS95
http://sccatalog.honeywell.com/pdbdownload/images/11ts95.series.chart.1.pdf
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=480-3066-ND
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Noise Filter for Strobe power and regulator? |
>
>Bob and group,
>
>Looks like Radio Shack has obsoleted both noise filters in Bob's related
>article. Does anyone have a recommendation on either an appropriate
>replacement noise filter or an appropriate choke (I've got appropriate
>caps...) for use at a strobe power supply?
Now does noise from the strobe manifest itself
in your system?
>2nd noise question: I'm planning on moving my "Ford Style" regulator up
>into the nose of the longeze and adding an OVP module (with associated 5A
>breaker). I'm assuming the regulator noise is field-current-loop noise
>which implies it shouldn't change much (loop the same, position of
>regulator is different). Is there other regulator based noise I should
>worry about?
No, these regulators have not proven to be
antagonists to other systems.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vernon Little" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
Bob. I've had a Carling B&C 1-3 switch sitting on my desk for a couple of
years that I pulled out of my Whelen strobe circuit with almost identical
failure symptoms. I pulled it apart and it looks virtually identical to the
failed switch shown in your article.
Is this a coincidence? Three switches failing in identical fashions in
identical applications... Sounds like an intrinsic application problem. I
have my suspicions about the Whelen strobe pack. Is there any indication of
what the strobe unit was for the other failed switches?
Thanks,
Vern Little
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: September 2, 2008 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem
-->
>Bob, et., al.,
>
>My strobe lights blows its fuse. After replacing the 10A fuse, it blew
>again when the Master Switch was turned on with the strobe power off. The
>wire from the power bus to the switch checked okay. However, the fast-on
>for the wire that goes to the strobe power pack was charred. A continuity
>check of the switch shows a closed circuit from the common terminal to the
>exterior switch mounting bolt and knob, regardless of the switch
>position. So, I think I have isolated the problem to the panel mounted
>strobe power switch being shorted out internally.
>
> Questions:
>
>Do I have the right switch for the situation? The switch is a B&C 700
>series, 1-3 On-On. Its on a 12 volt system. A single hot wire goes from
>the power bus to the switch and from the switch to the power pack. The
>power pack is locally grounded. All wires are 18 gauge.
>
>Are these type switch failures common?
I didn't think so . . . but it seems you've duplicated
a failure mode effect that was discovered in a strobe
system about 2 years ago. See:
http://tinyurl.com/2a2qqp
>Any ideas of what could have caused the short?
The working hypothesis is discussed in the failure
analysis. It would be interesting to get a current
draw signature from your strobe system . . . and
to find out if its the same brand as the one
involved in the earlier incident.
These switches are rated for plenty of current to
carry the strobe system currents I'm familiar with
but there may be something curious afoot here. In
any case, consider replacing the Carling device
with something heavier . . . A Honeywell Microswitch
11TS95
http://sccatalog.honeywell.com/pdbdownload/images/11ts95.series.chart.1.pdf
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=480-3066-ND
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Where can I purchase AEC products? |
| From: | "Ratman" <johnandme(at)aol.com> |
I have looked and looked, searched and searched but I can't even find where someone
else has asked the question.
Where can I purchase AEC products? Specifically AEC9005-101.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2274#202274
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wire availability? |
| From: | "Terry Phillips" <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net> |
I cannot help you with the multiple conductor wire, but I have several thousand
feet of non-shielded 22 AWG Mil Spec 22759/32-22-6 Tefzel insulated single conductor
wire that I'm planning to sell as soon as I decide how many feet to put
on a spool (I don't plan to sell it by the foot). The price would be about
$.05/ft plus postage. I'm thinking between 500 and 1000 ft/spool. The insulation
is a nice light blue color.
Let me know if you're interested.
Terry
> Bob and the Group,
>
> I was hoping to find aircraft wire of the following types, please let me
> know if you know where it's available (it may not exist...). I do have
> less optimal substitutions for each if I can't find them.
>
> 8 & 10 gauge in both Red & Black
> or both 8 & 10 gauge 2-wire (non-shielded) (better but I'm expecting to
> have to use white singles at this point...)
> 20 gauge 2-wire (non-shielded)
> 20 gauge 3-wire (shielded)
> 22 gauge 2-wire (non-shielded)
> 24 gauge 8-wire (non-shielded)
--------
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2277#202277
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wire availability? |
| From: | "Ratman" <johnandme(at)aol.com> |
http://www.steinair.com/wire.htm
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2280#202280
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Where can I purchase AEC products? |
>
>I have looked and looked, searched and searched but I can't even find
>where someone else has asked the question.
>
>Where can I purchase AEC products? Specifically AEC9005-101.
Those are discontinued products but the data packages are
published for the benefit of those who own them. They
will be replaced by a new line of products under development.
I have quantities of some items already assembled and
I've been working on instruction manuals to go with
them. My son and daughter-in-law are learning how
to assemble and test the new products. As soon as we
have a half dozen different items ready to deliver,
they'll be added to the catalog pages of the website.
AEC9005 is being replaced by a version of this
low volts warning and ov protection for generators.
http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/
A part number hasn't been assigned but it will
offer the same functionality as the AEC9005 and
a bit more . . .
We're 'in training' on the 9011 right now. The
next project up will be the LV warn/Aux Battery
management module.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>Bob. I've had a Carling B&C 1-3 switch sitting on my desk for a couple of
>years that I pulled out of my Whelen strobe circuit with almost identical
>failure symptoms. I pulled it apart and it looks virtually identical to the
>failed switch shown in your article.
You mentioned this a couple of weeks ago . . . and I wondered
if you were the reader who supplied me the carcass of the
failed switch in the article.
>Is this a coincidence? Three switches failing in identical fashions in
>identical applications... Sounds like an intrinsic application problem. I
>have my suspicions about the Whelen strobe pack. Is there any indication of
>what the strobe unit was for the other failed switches?
Not a coincidence. What about the Whelen product makes you
believe it's unique among strobe systems with respect
to power demands. Three similar failures in so short a
period of time tends to support your suspicions but I'm
curious as to what you might know that I've not yet
discovered.
What kind of switch did you put in place of the failed
switch and how much time do you have on it?
Bob. . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Noise Filter for Strobe power and regulator? |
Bob,
Regarding my interest in a noise filter for my strobe:
> **
> Now does noise from the strobe manifest itself
> in your system?
>
> **
I was told it was audible via the intercom and the previous owner had
glued (literally) a massive aluminum electrolytic to the top of the case
(the size of a tall drinking glass) "which helped" (as I remember being
told). I'm redoing the wiring from scratch and it's possible that
elimination of a previously existing big radio/intercom power feed loop
will have taken care of the problem but it seems prudent to put some
filtering in to replace the overly large cap.
My goal is to put in something "reasonable" and, with luck, not have
anything to chase down in this area when I power everything back up
again after the rewiring.
Steve Stearns
Boulder/Longmont, Colorado
CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less)
Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs)
Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charles Brame <chasb(at)satx.rr.com> |
Bob & Vernon,
Thanks for the rapid replies. I find it interesting that each of the
failures were in a strobe circuit
In my case, it was also a Whelen Strobe System with a single power
pack driving three strobes. It had been in intermittent use for less
than 50 hours.
I have already ordered a new Carling switch from B&C. I think I will
reverse the current flow through the switch as you suggested in your
article. If it blows again, I will switch to the Honeywell
Microswitch 11TS95 as you recommended.
Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB
San Antonio
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Vernon Little" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem
Bob. I've had a Carling B&C 1-3 switch sitting on my desk for a
couple of
years that I pulled out of my Whelen strobe circuit with almost
identical
failure symptoms. I pulled it apart and it looks virtually identical
to the
failed switch shown in your article.
Is this a coincidence? Three switches failing in identical fashions in
identical applications... Sounds like an intrinsic application
problem. I
have my suspicions about the Whelen strobe pack. Is there any
indication of
what the strobe unit was for the other failed switches?
Thanks,
Vern Little
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: September 2, 2008 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem
-->
> Bob, et., al.,
>
> My strobe lights blows its fuse. After replacing the 10A fuse, it blew
> again when the Master Switch was turned on with the strobe power
> off. The
> wire from the power bus to the switch checked okay. However, the
> fast-on
> for the wire that goes to the strobe power pack was charred. A
> continuity
> check of the switch shows a closed circuit from the common terminal
> to the
> exterior switch mounting bolt and knob, regardless of the switch
> position. So, I think I have isolated the problem to the panel
> mounted
> strobe power switch being shorted out internally.
>
> Questions:
>
> Do I have the right switch for the situation? The switch is a B&C 700
> series, 1-3 On-On. Its on a 12 volt system. A single hot wire goes
> from
> the power bus to the switch and from the switch to the power pack. The
> power pack is locally grounded. All wires are 18 gauge.
>
> Are these type switch failures common?
>
I didn't think so . . . but it seems you've duplicated
a failure mode effect that was discovered in a strobe
system about 2 years ago. See:
http://tinyurl.com/2a2qqp
> Any ideas of what could have caused the short?
>
The working hypothesis is discussed in the failure
analysis. It would be interesting to get a current
draw signature from your strobe system . . . and
to find out if its the same brand as the one
involved in the earlier incident.
These switches are rated for plenty of current to
carry the strobe system currents I'm familiar with
but there may be something curious afoot here. In
any case, consider replacing the Carling device
with something heavier . . . A Honeywell Microswitch
11TS95
http://sccatalog.honeywell.com/pdbdownload/images/11ts95.series.chart.
1.pdf
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?
name=480-3066-ND
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vernon Little" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
Hi Bob, I replaced the failed switch with another Carling/B&C switch. I've
had some trouble with loose rivets on some of these switches which I thought
was the root cause of the thermal problems.
I will be inspecting the replacement switch later today. The external
evidence of problems is a burnt fast-on and discolored terminals. I have
about 100 hours on the replacement.
Thanks,
Vern
>Bob. I've had a Carling B&C 1-3 switch sitting on my desk for a couple
>of years that I pulled out of my Whelen strobe circuit with almost
>identical failure symptoms. I pulled it apart and it looks virtually
>identical to the failed switch shown in your article.
You mentioned this a couple of weeks ago . . . and I wondered
if you were the reader who supplied me the carcass of the
failed switch in the article.
>Is this a coincidence? Three switches failing in identical fashions in
>identical applications... Sounds like an intrinsic application problem.
>I have my suspicions about the Whelen strobe pack. Is there any
>indication of what the strobe unit was for the other failed switches?
Not a coincidence. What about the Whelen product makes you
believe it's unique among strobe systems with respect
to power demands. Three similar failures in so short a
period of time tends to support your suspicions but I'm
curious as to what you might know that I've not yet
discovered.
What kind of switch did you put in place of the failed
switch and how much time do you have on it?
Bob. . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
>
>
>Hi Bob, I replaced the failed switch with another Carling/B&C switch. I've
>had some trouble with loose rivets on some of these switches which I thought
>was the root cause of the thermal problems.
>
>I will be inspecting the replacement switch later today. The external
>evidence of problems is a burnt fast-on and discolored terminals. I have
>about 100 hours on the replacement.
>
>Thanks,
>Vern
Thanks for taking the time to track this. This basic
switch configuration has been around for a VERY long time
in airplanes. The rocker switches with fast-ons used in
the Cessna product late in the 60s used this manufacturing
processes.
Certainly, many tens of thousands of strobe systems
have been controlled with this switch. It will
be interesting to see what you find.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Glen Matejcek <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 09/02/08 |
You might try B&B Aircraft and / or Airparts. I believe they are both in KS somewhere,
but I'm on the road and don't have that info at my finger tips. Also,
there is a salvage house in FL that has all manner of surplus mil spec wire.
>From: Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com>
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wire availability?
>
>
>Bob and the Group,
>
>I was hoping to find aircraft wire of the following types, please let me
>know if you know where it's available (it may not exist...). I do have
>less optimal substitutions for each if I can't find them.
>
>8 & 10 gauge in both Red & Black
>or both 8 & 10 gauge 2-wire (non-shielded) (better but I'm expecting to
>have to use white singles at this point...)
>20 gauge 2-wire (non-shielded)
>20 gauge 3-wire (shielded)
>22 gauge 2-wire (non-shielded)
>24 gauge 8-wire (non-shielded)
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Steve Stearns
>Boulder/Longmont, Colorado
>CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less)
>Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs)
>Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D
Glen Matejcek
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Iberplanes IGL" <iberplanes(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual |
from garmin.
2008/9/1 Carlos Trigo
> Does anybody have, or knows where to download from, the Installation
> Manual (not the User's Manual) for the Garmin GTX-330 Transponder?
>
>
> Help appreciated
>
> Carlos
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
----------------------------------------------
Zodiac 601 XL Builder
Serial: 6-7011
Tail Kit: Finished
Wings: Not Started
Fuselage: Ordered
Engine: Jabiru 3300
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Randy" <brinker(at)suddenlinkmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual |
Try this
http://www.rv7-a.com/manuals/GTX330Transponder_InstallationManual.pdf
----- Original Message -----
From: Iberplanes IGL
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual
from garmin.
2008/9/1 Carlos Trigo
Does anybody have, or knows where to download from, the Installation
Manual (not the User's Manual) for the Garmin GTX-330 Transponder?
Help appreciated
Carlos
--
Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
----------------------------------------------
Zodiac 601 XL Builder
Serial: 6-7011
Tail Kit: Finished
Wings: Not Started
Fuselage: Ordered
Engine: Jabiru 3300
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
9/3/2008 7:15 AM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brett Ferrell <bferrell(at)123mail.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual |
from my website
http://www.velocityxl.com/Downloads/GTX330Transponder_PilotsGuide.pdf
http://www.velocityxl.com/Downloads/GTX330Transponder_InstallationManual.pdf
Quoting Iberplanes IGL :
> from garmin.
>
>
> 2008/9/1 Carlos Trigo
>
> > Does anybody have, or knows where to download from, the Installation
> > Manual (not the User's Manual) for the Garmin GTX-330 Transponder?
> >
> >
> >
> > Help appreciated
> >
> > Carlos
> >
> > *
> >
> > *
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Alberto Martin
> www.iberplanes.es
> Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> Zodiac 601 XL Builder
> Serial: 6-7011
>
> Tail Kit: Finished
> Wings: Not Started
> Fuselage: Ordered
> Engine: Jabiru 3300
>
--
A ship in harbor is safe -- but that is not what ships are built for.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Noise Filter for Strobe power and regulator? |
>
>Bob,
>Regarding my interest in a noise filter for my strobe:
>>**
>> Now does noise from the strobe manifest itself
>> in your system?
>>
>> **
>I was told it was audible via the intercom and the previous owner had
>glued (literally) a massive aluminum electrolytic to the top of the case
>(the size of a tall drinking glass) "which helped" (as I remember being
>told). I'm redoing the wiring from scratch and it's possible that
>elimination of a previously existing big radio/intercom power feed loop
>will have taken care of the problem but it seems prudent to put some
>filtering in to replace the overly large cap.
>
>My goal is to put in something "reasonable" and, with luck, not have
>anything to chase down in this area when I power everything back up again
>after the rewiring.
This is a LongEz? Where is the strobe supply mounted
and how is it grounded? Do you have a single point
ground system? Where are the microphone and headset
jacks grounded?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Garmin GTX-330 Installation Manual |
Thanks to everybody who answered.
I already have it.
Carlos
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Iberplanes IGL
Sent: quarta-feira, 3 de Setembro de 2008 20:25
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin GTX-330 Instalation Manual
from garmin.
2008/9/1 Carlos Trigo
Does anybody have, or knows where to download from, the Installation Manual
(not the User's Manual) for the Garmin GTX-330 Transponder?
Help appreciated
Carlos
--
Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
----------------------------------------------
Zodiac 601 XL Builder
Serial: 6-7011
Tail Kit: Finished
Wings: Not Started
Fuselage: Ordered
Engine: Jabiru 3300
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <jamesbaldwin(at)dc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: B+C alternator problem |
> Bob -
> >Here are more specifics for this installation:
> >
> >The wiring diagram provided by the builder (and it seems to be accurate)
> >is the "Z-1, Simple system with Toggle Mag Sw and Linear Regulator."
Okay, this drawing was 'retired' at Z-9 or so and replaced
with Z-11. They are similar in many respects.
> >The battery is a Concorde RG 25XC.
> >The alternator is a B+C L40, s/n 010806.
> >The regulator/OV prot is a B+C LR-3, s/n 11920211.
I don't recall how to read B&C's serial numbers
with respect to manufacturing date. But it may
well be that this one pre-dates the modifications
added later to reduce probability of nuisance
trips.
> >
> >The C/B from the alt output is only 40 amps! I'm guessing it should be
> >bigger based on your previous comments or I can use a current limiter you
> >suggest but I'll need to know which one/where are they available.
You can get the legacy current limiters and mounting
bases from B&C. Alternatively, a MAXI fuse holder from
the O'Rileys or some other parts store would do too.
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Fuses/Fuse_Holders/MaxiFuse_Holder.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Fuses/Fuses/maxi.gif
They can supply the fuse too. Use a 60A. Tie the
fuseholder onto the fat wire that feeds your starter
contactor and tie b-lead power into the system at
the starter contactor.
> > The alternator field fuse that has blown several times I rechecked and
> > is 15 amps. Does the "nuisance trip" scenario you speak of manifest as
> > blowing the 15 amp fuse?
Yes. I dug back into the archives and found that
Z-1 suggested the 15A fuse protected feeder from
the fuseblock that was followed downstream by a
5A breaker on the panel. Later drawings suggested
a much more robust protection of the alternator field
breaker feed in the form of a fusible link . . . see
Z-11.
For your purposes now, replace the 15A fuse with
a 30A fuse. This will probably transfer the trip to
the breaker instead of the fuse. It seems likely that
the LR3 is seeing something that irritates it's ov
protection sensing.
The original design observed all the recommendations
for noise immunity but when we started installing this
system in the Bonanzas, one of the test pilots found that
if he turned both landing and taxi lights on at the same
time, he could trip the standby alternator ov system.
The noises generated by this event were pretty spectacular.
Inrush currents from two large lamps through the very bouncy
contacts of W31 breaker-switches put some really ugly
transients onto the bus. It was doubtful that anyone would
DO that thing but it wasn't difficult to modify the
circuit to ignore this stimulus. We modified the circuit
and have experienced no difficulties (that I'm aware of)
since.
> >What else would you like to know and what do you think? Thank you. JBB
Call B&C at 316-283-8000 and see if they're interested
in updating your LR-3 with respect to noise immunity.
If push comes to shove, I can modify it for you but
let's see what they say first.
Bob . . .
Bob -
Talked to Bill at B+C this afternoon and he wasn't too convinced the LR-3B needed
much of an upgrade. He says there is a LR-3C being built now and I get the
idea it has some transient type improvements built in. His suggestion was to
monitor the low voltage light to see under which conditions it comes on. I don't
think I can get it to trip when I want. I am suspecting it might not be
a consistent cause i.e. the dreaded intermittent type of thing. But, I now know
enough about the location of components in my particular system to troubleshoot
if I knew where to start. The only thing I have done is put a 20 amp fuse
in the field location. I haven't flown it yet this way. JBB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Noise Filter for Strobe power and regulator? |
>
> ** >Bob,
> >Regarding my interest in a noise filter for my strobe:
> >>**
> >> Now does noise from the strobe manifest itself
> >> in your system?
> >>
> >> **
> >I was told it was audible via the intercom and the previous owner had
> >glued (literally) a massive aluminum electrolytic to the top of the case
> >(the size of a tall drinking glass) "which helped" (as I remember being
> >told). I'm redoing the wiring from scratch and it's possible that
> >elimination of a previously existing big radio/intercom power feed loop
> >will have taken care of the problem but it seems prudent to put some
> >filtering in to replace the overly large cap.
> >
> >My goal is to put in something "reasonable" and, with luck, not have
> >anything to chase down in this area when I power everything back up again
> >after the rewiring.
>
> This is a LongEz? Where is the strobe supply mounted
> and how is it grounded? Do you have a single point
> ground system? Where are the microphone and headset
> jacks grounded?
> **
It's a LongEZ, I'm redoing the wiring (all of it..., In fact there is no
wire left in the airframe right now, but I made a full set of
"as-builts" before I ripped it all out) as I didn't like some things I
found. The first issue that I think could have been a big contributor
for strobe noise is that the power and ground for the radio and intercom
stack (which was one breaker for all, but will be separate fuses) ran
different directions from the radio with the ground running forward to
the battery while the power ran backward on the left side, crossed over
to the right side through the pilot headrest and then forward to the
switch panel in the right strake before continuing forward to the
battery. This left a huge inductive loop for noise pickup. This will
be fixed. The strobe power was mounted under the wing spar in the "hell
hole" and was grounded both directly to the firewall (via case mounting)
and through a power cable that ran up to the switch panel which there
had a separate ground back to the firewall. This put the the strobe in
the middle of one of the ground loops (all of which will be
eliminated). The radio, intercom and instruments, and this is worth
something..., were at least on a separate non-looped ground direct to
the battery. At the jacks, the mic and headphone jacks were only
grounded to each other and to a ground wire and the shields on a closely
paired pair of shielded cables back to the avionics harness. There was
technically a ground loop in the two shields but not an egregious one as
there was no area within the loop (but it will be fixed none-the-less).
From your questions I'm inferring that noise problems with a Whelen
Strobe supply is not a given. And I'm now expecting you might suggest
that since I'm rewiring and eliminating an obvious noise propagation
path (that from the nice open power supply ground-loop to the nice open
radio power path loop...) and possible other less-obvious ones (and
hopefully avoiding any of my own design) perhaps I should wait on the
noise filter until I determine if I still have a problem.
(In student mode...) How'd I do?
Steve Stearns
Boulder/Longmont, Colorado
CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less)
Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs)
Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: B+C alternator problem |
>
> Call B&C at 316-283-8000 and see if they're interested
> in updating your LR-3 with respect to noise immunity.
> If push comes to shove, I can modify it for you but
> let's see what they say first.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>Bob -
>Talked to Bill at B+C this afternoon and he wasn't too convinced the LR-3B
>needed much of an upgrade. He says there is a LR-3C being built now and I
>get the idea it has some transient type improvements built in. His
>suggestion was to monitor the low voltage light to see under which
>conditions it comes on. I don't think I can get it to trip when I
>want. I am suspecting it might not be a consistent cause i.e. the dreaded
>intermittent type of thing. But, I now know enough about the location of
>components in my particular system to troubleshoot if I knew where to
>start. The only thing I have done is put a 20 amp fuse in the field
>location. I haven't flown it yet this way. JBB
This tends to confirm my suspicion that B&C has
probably not replaced departed technical staff that
used to support this and other products . . .
It's true that the "C" version was crafted to offset the
effects of an extra-ordinary (outside the Mil-Std-704
envelope) noise situation on the G36 Bonanza. It's
also true that your particular installation may be
generating some un-anticipated stress that upsets
the ov protection.
I should point out here . . . AGAIN . . . that this
situation is not unique to the so-called "crowbar"
shutdown philosophy. It's a situation driven by the
dynamics of circuitry that watches for an ov condition
and makes a Let-Run/Shut-Down decision. It's a system
design and integration problem that must be solved
irrespective of the designer's choice for shut-down
philosophy. I.e, anyone's OV protection scheme can
be similarly "spoofed" into an unnecessary shutdown
event.
My sense is that B&C is hopeful of keeping this prolem
out of their shops . . . so let's do this.
The upstream field supply protection should be a 5A
breaker. If there's a "fusible" function upstream
of the breaker, make it a 24AWG fusible link. Let's
get the unit-fuse out of the system. The breaker
should be mounted within reach of the pilot.
Let's do some flying and see if you can identify
the antagonist condition. By the way, I'm assuming
you DO have a single point ground behind the panel
for all the electro-whizzies? Let's conduct some
experiments to see if the noise source can
be deduced.
If push comes to shove, you can mail me your regulator
and I'll modify it here. I think I recall all the things
we did to them . . . but it's been 7-10 years ago.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Noise Filter for Strobe power and regulator? |
>>
>> This is a LongEz? Where is the strobe supply mounted
>> and how is it grounded? Do you have a single point
>> ground system? Where are the microphone and headset
>> jacks grounded?
>>**
>It's a LongEZ, I'm redoing the wiring (all of it..., In fact there is no
>wire left in the airframe right now, but I made a full set of "as-builts"
>before I ripped it all out) as I didn't like some things I found. The
>first issue that I think could have been a big contributor for strobe
>noise is that the power and ground for the radio and intercom stack (which
>was one breaker for all, but will be separate fuses) ran different
>directions from the radio with the ground running forward to the battery
>while the power ran backward on the left side, crossed over to the right
>side through the pilot headrest and then forward to the switch panel in
>the right strake before continuing forward to the battery. This left a
>huge inductive loop for noise pickup. This will be fixed. The strobe
>power was mounted under the wing spar in the "hell hole" and was grounded
>both directly to the firewall (via case mounting) and through a power
>cable that ran up to the switch panel which there had a separate ground
>back to the firewall. This put the the strobe in the middle of one of the
>ground loops (all of which will be eliminated). The radio, intercom and
>instruments, and this is worth something..., were at least on a separate
>non-looped ground direct to the battery. At the jacks, the mic and
>headphone jacks were only grounded to each other and to a ground wire and
>the shields on a closely paired pair of shielded cables back to the
>avionics harness. There was technically a ground loop in the two shields
>but not an egregious one as there was no area within the loop (but it will
>be fixed none-the-less).
>
> From your questions I'm inferring that noise problems with a Whelen
> Strobe supply is not a given. And I'm now expecting you might suggest
> that since I'm rewiring and eliminating an obvious noise propagation path
> (that from the nice open power supply ground-loop to the nice open radio
> power path loop...) and possible other less-obvious ones (and hopefully
> avoiding any of my own design) perhaps I should wait on the noise filter
> until I determine if I still have a problem.
There are tens of thousands of strobe systems flying
with no or (at least acceptably low) noise issues. So
yes, the need for filtering is not a given. Further,
the need to ADD filtering gives pause to wonder if
there are other deficiencies in the system integration
that drives the need for a band-aid filter later.
I've never had to "fix" a regulator installation
to mitigate a noise issue.
My suggestion is that you continue your clean-up
tasks with a goal of crafting a system that is as
tolerant of the strobe as the thousands of installations
cited above. After all, these ARE DO-160 qualified devices . . .
if they don't live happily in any given system, it's
likely that design deficiencies exist in the system.
The road to Nirvana starts at the common point ground
where electro-whizzies, battery(-) and a FATwire-to-
crankcase all come together. There can be other
ground wire concentration points but given the size
of this airplane and the narrow, tandem cockpit
width, the one-ground-does-it-all approach is doable
and attractive.
Lack of shielding (or inauspicious use of shielding)
is almost NEVER the source of a noise problem. Most of
our airplanes have much more shielded wire than is
necessary . . .
>(In student mode...) How'd I do?
The fact that you're sifting the sand with us
on such matters bodes well for success with
understanding.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Project Almost Done - Cleaning House... |
| From: | "Don Honabach" <don(at)pcperfect.com> |
After over 10 years I'm almost done with my Zodiac 601HDS project (yes,
HDS) and I'm cleaning out/selling off the extras to make a little peace
in the family...
I've put up 2 Electric Gyros Indicators on eBay if anyone is interested:
RCA15AK-1 14V Electric Directional Gyro (Lighted)
http://tinyurl.com/6n66vm
RCA26AK-1 14V Electric Attitude Indicator Gyro (Lighted)
http://tinyurl.com/5nnfuu
Both are brand new, have zero hours and were bought at R.C. Allen Booth
at Oshkosh.
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ
601HDS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Lineberry" <glineberry(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch problem |
Interestingly I have had almost the same problem. With a little over 200
hours on the aircraft my Whelen strobe system stopped working. It did not
open the 10A fuse, but when switched on the strobes would flash for about 10
seconds and then stop. I was thinking that it was a problem with the Whelen
unit but it is in a very difficult place to get to in my RV8 (under the
floor) so I haven't yet gone to the effort to take up the floor to check it
out. I looked at the fuse block and things looked good. Until I read this
thread I didn't think about looking at the switch...my mistake. When I
examined the switch today I discovered that the blue insulation on the
Fast-On connectors had darkened considerably, indicating that they have been
getting hot. They are still firmly attached to the wire but it appears
there is an internal problem in the switch that is causing excessive heat.
It is the B&C 1-3 switch referenced in this discussion. I have just ordered
a few of the Honeywell switches from Digi-Key and will replace it with one
of those. I don't know what the actual current draw on the circuit is, but
I have a 10A fuse that has not opened, so I would think that the B&C switch
should handle it. On the other hand, it appears that there is some other
factor afoot here in the strobe circuit that the 1-3 does not like. We'll
see how the Honeywell switch handles it.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch problem |
>Interestingly I have had almost the same problem. With a little over 200
>hours on the aircraft my Whelen strobe system stopped working. It did not
>open the 10A fuse, but when switched on the strobes would flash for about
>10 seconds and then stop. I was thinking that it was a problem with the
>Whelen unit but it is in a very difficult place to get to in my RV8 (under
>the floor) so I haven t yet gone to the effort to take up the floor to
>check it out. I looked at the fuse block and things looked good. Until I
>read this thread I didn t think about looking at the switch&..my mistake.
Not a mistake . . . just an unhappy discovery that
one ingredient in your system's recipe for success may
not be performing as-advertised.
> When I examined the switch today I discovered that the blue insulation
> on the Fast-On connectors had darkened considerably, indicating that they
> have been getting hot. They are still firmly attached to the wire but it
> appears there is an internal problem in the switch that is causing
> excessive heat.
A logical deduction.
>It is the B&C 1-3 switch referenced in this discussion. I have just
>ordered a few of the Honeywell switches from Digi-Key and will replace it
>with one of those.
I'd really like to put my hands on the overheated switch
for teardown, documentation and analysis.
>I don t know what the actual current draw on the circuit is, but I have a
>10A fuse that has not opened, so I would think that the B&C switch should
>handle it. On the other hand, it appears that there is some other factor
>afoot here in the strobe circuit that the 1-3 does not like. We ll see
>how the Honeywell switch handles it.
Agreed. There are valuable experiments to conduct
for the purpose of clearer understanding. It's
interesting to see how the act of bringing one
event to forums like these triggers a cascade of
recollection and consideration of similar events.
Situations that might have been pushed aside as isolated
events for individuals but raise flags of common
concerns for the group when the knowledge is pooled
together.
The strobe supply is unique among loads on the bus.
For those of you who are interested, take a peek at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Strobe_Supply_Current.pdf
This is the current plot on a small strobe system I
was able to document some years ago. We were investigating
the effectiveness of various filter techniques for
the purpose of reducing the whining noise that some
strobes put out onto the bus.
The bottom two plots of this figure show the unfiltered
supply current draw of the system at two different
sample rates. Of particular interest is the fast rate
plot (second one up). Here we can clearly see the
modulation of on-current that is indicative of the
audio rate switching of the high voltage power
supply.
The third plot was measured after a 10KuF capacitor
was placed across the strobe supply leads. Note that
the switching noise is for all practical purposes
gone. The fourth plot is with one of the now discontinued
audio noise filters from Radio Shack. It too proved to
be an effective suppressor of the audio rate noise
but note the little spike at the onset of current
draw.
This is a GREAT illustration of the potential for
unintended consequences of an otherwise good thing.
This spike is a ringing at the resonant frequency of
the filter's inductor and capacitor. While the
combination of components DID relieve us of the
audio rate noise, it produces a new stimulus that
might now be perceived as a once-per-flash "tick"
at some other place in the system.
Clearly, this experiment suggests that the stand-alone
capacitor is effective and offers the least
risk for unintended byproducts of an otherwise
effective solution.
Now the problem before us is one of discovering the
energy signature that offends a switch that should
be sufficient to the task based on its ratings.
Neal, are you following this thread? We were discussing
an experiment to deduce the suitability of smaller gage
shielded wire when used as the connection between strobe
supply and the flash-tubes. Any chance you could get your
hands on a 'scope with digital data recording features
like a Tek TDS2012? These new gee-whizz scopes plot
.jpg screen shots AND ascii sample plots to a thumbdrive.
REALLY slick. If you could get the current plots from
your system the same time you do the flash intensity
experiments, it might lend some insight as to why the
switches that control the strobes are barfing.
If push came to shove, I could mail you my 'scope for
a few days to get the measurements. Let's talk about
this.
Another interesting piece of data from the plots
I cited above. Note that the POWER required to run
this little feller was 1.3 a-s per cycle x 14 volts
or 18 watts. THIS is the number that drives your
load analysis for the purpose of sizing batteries
and alternators. Note that it is smaller than the
value derived by simply multiplying bus votlage by
peak current draw of 2.7 amps (38 watts).
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 605 TES/TBM" <Neal.George(at)hurlburt.af.mil> |
Neal, are you following this thread?
I'm trying. The water's deep and I'm short.
Any chance you could get your hands on a 'scope with digital
data recording features like a Tek TDS2012?
Maybe. I'll ask around and see what I can find.
neal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Relay coils and diodes |
My experience - shared for mine and other's education and offering of opinion.
This past weekend, I was working on the wiring of my flap position sensor for my
two-speed elevator trim circuit. The two-speed trim circuit essentially switches
a low speed set matronics governor for a high speed set one via a pair of
4PDT relays whenever the flaps come off the upstop.
As I was testing the detector switch - I got 'bit' by something that felt like
house current (done that too!). Not knowing what was going on, I repeated the
test...with identical results.
OK, break out some of Bob's literary work - read-up and put in some diodes across
the power terminals of the coil.
Re-reading made me think that in my case, the diodes may be even more important...in
Bob's writings (Paraphrased) "the absence of the diode presents the opening
switch with the spike"; in my case, I have a couple of things wired up within
the master switch... I'm thinking that in my case the master switch would
'see' the spike...along with anything else that is left on when I turn off the
master.
I know that the 'real' airplane stuff should be able to live in this environment
and should not produce this environment either - however in the OBAM world,
I can put in non tso'd trim servos and indicators (of which I have had a couple
of them mysteriously blow one of their indicator lights) which are pretty good
gear as far as I'm concerned - they just haven't spent the money and gone through
the certification process.
Got the diodes and will be putting them in this weekend. Is it possible that I'm
allowing a spike to wander around my electrical system by turning off the master
with some of these relays energized?
Your thoughts please,
Ralph Capen
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | ELT Mounting Bracket |
| From: | "JohnInReno" <john(at)morgensen.com> |
Why does the mount for the Ameri-King ELT have a "wedge" under the rearward end
so that the radio is tilted 20 up in the back?
John Morgensen
RV-9A fuselage
Grumman AA1B-150
--------
RV-9A - Fuselage
Grumman AA1B-150 (RV-Trainer) Flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2780#202780
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bret Smith" <smithhb(at)tds.net> |
| Subject: | ELT Mounting Bracket |
It doesn't. Loosen the strap and slide the unit forward until it sits flat,
then re-fasten the strap.
Bret Smith
RV-9A N16BL
Blue Ridge, Ga
www.FlightInnovations.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
JohnInReno
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 1:51 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: ELT Mounting Bracket
-->
Why does the mount for the Ameri-King ELT have a "wedge" under the rearward
end so that the radio is tilted 20 up in the back?
John Morgensen
RV-9A fuselage
Grumman AA1B-150
--------
RV-9A - Fuselage
Grumman AA1B-150 (RV-Trainer) Flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2780#202780
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Morgensen <john(at)morgensen.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ELT Mounting Bracket |
I should have included pictures the first time. This is the Ameri-King
451 406 ELT and the very first ELT that I have ever dealt with. There
is a lip around the tray that completely surrounds the radio. The only
way to move it forward would be to have the radio sit on the forward
lip. See the attached pictures.
Bret Smith wrote:
>
> It doesn't. Loosen the strap and slide the unit forward until it sits flat,
> then re-fasten the strap.
>
>
> Why does the mount for the Ameri-King ELT have a "wedge" under the rearward
> end so that the radio is tilted 20 up in the back?
>
>
> --------
> RV-9A - Fuselage
> Grumman AA1B-150 (RV-Trainer) Flying
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ELT Mounting Bracket |
| From: | "JohnInReno" <john(at)morgensen.com> |
I should have included pictures the first time. This is the Ameri-King 451 406
ELT and the very first ELT that I have ever dealt with. There is a lip around
the tray that completely surrounds the radio. The only way to move it forward
would be to have the radio sit on the forward lip. See the attached pictures.
JohnInReno wrote:
> Why does the mount for the Ameri-King ELT have a "wedge" under the rearward end
so that the radio is tilted 20 up in the back?
>
> John Morgensen
> RV-9A fuselage
> Grumman AA1B-150
--------
RV-9A - Fuselage
Grumman AA1B-150 (RV-Trainer) Flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2794#202794
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1581_medium_117.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1580_medium_151.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1579_medium_580.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
>TES/TBM"
>
>
> Neal, are you following this thread?
>
>I'm trying. The water's deep and I'm short.
>
> Any chance you could get your hands on a 'scope with digital
>data recording features like a Tek TDS2012?
>
>Maybe. I'll ask around and see what I can find.
Thanks!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Relay coils and diodes |
>
>
>My experience - shared for mine and other's education and offering of opinion.
>
>This past weekend, I was working on the wiring of my flap position sensor
>for my two-speed elevator trim circuit. The two-speed trim circuit
>essentially switches a low speed set matronics governor for a high speed
>set one via a pair of 4PDT relays whenever the flaps come off the upstop.
>
>As I was testing the detector switch - I got 'bit' by something that felt
>like house current (done that too!). Not knowing what was going on, I
>repeated the test...with identical results.
Yeah, been there, done that. In my case I got the
fingers across the contacts of a cub-scout electric
buzzer project that operated from 3 volts (two flashlight
cells). The field collapse from the small buzzer
solenoid coil was sufficient to give ME a buzz which
caused me to drop the project thus damaging it.
Unfortunately it was not my project and my schoolmate was
pretty unhappy about it. Neither of us understood what
happened or why . . . but he got a personal demonstration
of the effect a few days later. Even after my Navy veteran
electrician father explained it to us, we didn't really
understand.
>OK, break out some of Bob's literary work - read-up and put in some diodes
>across the power terminals of the coil.
>
>Re-reading made me think that in my case, the diodes may be even more
>important...in Bob's writings (Paraphrased) "the absence of the diode
>presents the opening switch with the spike"; in my case, I have a couple
>of things wired up within the master switch... I'm thinking that in my
>case the master switch would 'see' the spike...along with anything else
>that is left on when I turn off the master.
>
>I know that the 'real' airplane stuff should be able to live in this
>environment and should not produce this environment either - however in
>the OBAM world, I can put in non tso'd trim servos and indicators (of
>which I have had a couple of them mysteriously blow one of their indicator
>lights) which are pretty good gear as far as I'm concerned - they just
>haven't spent the money and gone through the certification process.
>
>Got the diodes and will be putting them in this weekend. Is it possible
>that I'm allowing a spike to wander around my electrical system by turning
>off the master with some of these relays energized?
No. First, while the voltages generated by magnetic
field collapse on a relay or contactor can be pretty
spectacular, the ENERGY they contain is small. Given
that the voltage is proportional to rate-of-magnetic
decay, it stands to reason that maximum rate occurs at
minimum current or widest opening of contacts on the
controlling switch. This is a long winded way of stating
that the source impedance of the relay coil as an energy
storage device is big . . . too big to propagate significant
pulses of "spike" energy out onto the bus.
Most accessories have some amount of capacitance right
across the power input leads as filters. This capacitance
alone is a huge energy sink to inductively stored spikes.
Risks to anything other than the controlling switch due
to magnetic field collapse has been greatly exaggerated
and poorly understood.
There is no reason to be concerned beyond the effects
on the controlling device . . . even if the diodes are
not present.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ELT Mounting Bracket |
| From: | Ron Quillin <rjquillin(at)gmail.com> |
At 10:50 9/5/2008, you wrote:
>Why does the mount for the Ameri-King ELT have a "wedge" under the
>rearward end so that the radio is tilted 20 up in the back?
Mount for a helo?
They're at an angle...
Ron Q.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vernon Little" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
I checked the switch that I installed as a replacement for the one that I
fried about 100 hours ago. No sign of external damage or discoloration on
the new switch.
My failed switch was installed in 2005, purchased somewhat earlier. I had
two switches that had loose rivets, so I'm wondering if there was a QC
problem with the Carling switches made about that time. It would be
interesting to see the date codes on the failed switches.
My failed switch says C0344 Mexico. My guess was this is a date code (44th
week in 2003?). The one Bob analysed says 9936 Mexico on it.
Vern
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: September 5, 2008 9:08 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem
-->
>--> 605
>TES/TBM"
>
>
> Neal, are you following this thread?
>
>I'm trying. The water's deep and I'm short.
>
> Any chance you could get your hands on a 'scope with digital
>data recording features like a Tek TDS2012?
>
>Maybe. I'll ask around and see what I can find.
Thanks!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Lineberry" <glineberry(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Switch problem |
Bob:
Thank you for your analysis. I would have been happy to send you the
offending switch, but I have already dismantled it in order to satisfy
my
curiosity. The only real visual sign was some arc pitting on the
contact
surfaces. I believe that over time this pitting caused a high
resistance
that did two things. First, there was a voltage drop across this
resistance
which in series with the strobe unit caused the unit to stop working
because
of reduced voltage. When that happened I shut the circuit off and did
not
use it anymore. Second, the resistance at the pitted contacts generated
enough heat to discolor the blue insulation on the Fast-On connectors,
but I
caught it before any further heat damage occurred. The switch
components
looked normal except for the pitting. Nothing anywhere near the fried
specimen you referenced earlier. I temporarily installed a new 1-3
switch
today and ran the system for =BD hour and noticed no heat increase on
the
fasteners. But I wouldn=92t expect that until many switch actuations
and
subsequent pitting of the contacts. I will put the Honeywell switch in
when
it arrives and keep an eye on it. If it shows any signs of impending
failure I will research a Mil-Spec switch that might be a good
replacement.
Gary Lineberry
RV8 N18BL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Relay coils and diodes |
Thanks Bob.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Relay coils and diodes
>
>
>>
>>
>>My experience - shared for mine and other's education and offering of
>>opinion.
>>
>>This past weekend, I was working on the wiring of my flap position sensor
>>for my two-speed elevator trim circuit. The two-speed trim circuit
>>essentially switches a low speed set matronics governor for a high speed
>>set one via a pair of 4PDT relays whenever the flaps come off the upstop.
>>
>>As I was testing the detector switch - I got 'bit' by something that felt
>>like house current (done that too!). Not knowing what was going on, I
>>repeated the test...with identical results.
>
> Yeah, been there, done that. In my case I got the
> fingers across the contacts of a cub-scout electric
> buzzer project that operated from 3 volts (two flashlight
> cells). The field collapse from the small buzzer
> solenoid coil was sufficient to give ME a buzz which
> caused me to drop the project thus damaging it.
>
> Unfortunately it was not my project and my schoolmate was
> pretty unhappy about it. Neither of us understood what
> happened or why . . . but he got a personal demonstration
> of the effect a few days later. Even after my Navy veteran
> electrician father explained it to us, we didn't really
> understand.
>
>
>>OK, break out some of Bob's literary work - read-up and put in some diodes
>>across the power terminals of the coil.
>>
>>Re-reading made me think that in my case, the diodes may be even more
>>important...in Bob's writings (Paraphrased) "the absence of the diode
>>presents the opening switch with the spike"; in my case, I have a couple
>>of things wired up within the master switch... I'm thinking that in my
>>case the master switch would 'see' the spike...along with anything else
>>that is left on when I turn off the master.
>>
>>I know that the 'real' airplane stuff should be able to live in this
>>environment and should not produce this environment either - however in
>>the OBAM world, I can put in non tso'd trim servos and indicators (of
>>which I have had a couple of them mysteriously blow one of their indicator
>>lights) which are pretty good gear as far as I'm concerned - they just
>>haven't spent the money and gone through the certification process.
>>
>>Got the diodes and will be putting them in this weekend. Is it possible
>>that I'm allowing a spike to wander around my electrical system by turning
>>off the master with some of these relays energized?
>
> No. First, while the voltages generated by magnetic
> field collapse on a relay or contactor can be pretty
> spectacular, the ENERGY they contain is small. Given
> that the voltage is proportional to rate-of-magnetic
> decay, it stands to reason that maximum rate occurs at
> minimum current or widest opening of contacts on the
> controlling switch. This is a long winded way of stating
> that the source impedance of the relay coil as an energy
> storage device is big . . . too big to propagate significant
> pulses of "spike" energy out onto the bus.
>
> Most accessories have some amount of capacitance right
> across the power input leads as filters. This capacitance
> alone is a huge energy sink to inductively stored spikes.
> Risks to anything other than the controlling switch due
> to magnetic field collapse has been greatly exaggerated
> and poorly understood.
>
> There is no reason to be concerned beyond the effects
> on the controlling device . . . even if the diodes are
> not present.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Switch problem |
>Bob:
>
>Thank you for your analysis. I would have been happy to send you the
>offending switch, but I have already dismantled it in order to satisfy my
>curiosity. The only real visual sign was some arc pitting on the contact
>surfaces. I believe that over time this pitting caused a high resistance
>that did two things. First, there was a voltage drop across this
>resistance which in series with the strobe unit caused the unit to stop
>working because of reduced voltage. When that happened I shut the circuit
>off and did not use it anymore. Second, the resistance at the pitted
>contacts generated enough heat to discolor the blue insulation on the
>Fast-On connectors, but I caught it before any further heat damage
>occurred. The switch components looked normal except for the
>pitting. Nothing anywhere near the fried specimen you referenced
>earlier. I temporarily installed a new 1-3 switch today and ran the
>system for hour and noticed no heat increase on the fasteners. But I
>wouldn t expect that until many switch actuations and subsequent pitting
>of the contacts. I will put the Honeywell switch in when it arrives and
>keep an eye on it. If it shows any signs of impending failure I will
>research a Mil-Spec switch that might be a good replacement.
The Honeywell parts will be a cut-above the
Carling devices. I'm sure we're looking for
QA issues too. Loose rivets is one likely
root cause. The housings for these switches is
a molded and somewhat brittle plastic with
rather thin walls. The staking-height for
rivets that hold the contacts and terminals
together on the housing is an exceedingly close
tolerance process. A few thousandths too tight
and you crush the housing, too loose and you
loose gas-tightness in the joint and corrosion
gets you.
The failure I illustrated in the website
article seems to have initiated as a poor
fit of the radii of mating parts at the
teeter-totter pivot. Do you still have the
parts from your failed switch? I'd like to have
them even if you've already disassembled it.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
>Something like this?
>
>
><http://cgi.ebay.com/Tektronix-2230-100MHz-2ch-Digital-Storage-Oscilloscope_W0QQitemZ220277290907QQihZ012QQcategoryZ104247QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262>http://cgi.ebay.com/Tektronix-2230-100MHz-2ch-Digital-Storage-Oscilloscope_W0QQitemZ220277290907QQihZ012QQcategoryZ104247QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262
>
>
That could be a very useful tool and if you can get it cheap,
I would not discourage you from grabbing it. The 'scope
I mentioned, the TDS 2012 is my current favorite. You can
see it and its siblings at:
http://www2.tek.com/cmswpt/psdetails.lotr?ct=PS&ci=13295&cs=psu&lc=EN
It's a direct descendant of the TDS 210 that I purchased
6-7 years ago. These tools are noteworthy for their digital
storage of data for stable display on an LCD screen combined
with the ability to connect to outside clients. In the case
of the 210, it offered a printer interface that put screen
prints out to paper. This tool was used to produce hundreds
of measurement records for storage, documentation and
teaching. Many images from the 210 appear on aeroelectric.com
like . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/99_Saturn_SL1.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/CH10V.jpg
I had a chance to sell the 210 to a client and purchase
a younger cousin, the 2012 about a year ago. This
one gives us a USB thumbdrive port instead of a printer
connection. When you hit the 'print' button, it delivers
a .jpg screen print and columnar ascii data files to
the thumbdrive. I've published some of this output data
on aeroelectric.com too . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/S704-1_D-E_Transition_Diode_Suppression.jpg
you can put the .jpg into any handy image editor to
add leaders and text. I've not yet had occasion to
use the raw data files other than to 'play' with them
in Excel . . . but this is a very powerful upgrade to
our measurement capabilities. It also offers a USB
interface to a computer for automated measrument and
data recording.
Now, used 210s and 220s can be had off ebay for about
$500 ($1300 new). I've not seen the 2012s yet, it's
a bit early. There's a nice 1012 up now starting at
$400. See item 250290654969
Now, having offered suggestions for 'scopes particularly
useful to us in the OBAM aircraft venue, know that
ANY functioning 'scope of ANY capability at ANY price
is better than no 'scope at all! There are things to
be observed and measured for which there is no substitute
for "electronic eyes". The 'scope you cited would be
a very good buy as a single channel 'scope (90% of
my scope usage is in the single channel mode). If you
could get it for the starting bid, it would be an
excellent buy. Given that it's 'crippled' may well let
it sell for the starting bid price.
For the purposes of evaluating the energy consumption of
your strobe system, it's limited in that you would have
to photograph the screen, blow it up and do a manual
piecemeal integration by parts to deduce current
consumption. No great sin . . . this is how we used
to do it 30 years ago with ink pen traces on chart
recorders.
For folks interested in expanding their ability to "see"
those electrons, my best recommendation is the Textronix
2200 series devices like item 260281843724 on ebay. Any
of the 2200 60 Mhz or better is fine. Don't get too
wrapped around that higher-frequence-is-better-axle.
99% of everything we want to measure happens slower
than 60 million times per second!
These are modern solid state, still CRT display, light
and Textronix-quality. I've purchased perhaps a dozen
of these for folks over the years as "starter" scopes.
You want to get them cheap, under $200. 'Cause if it
craps, you'll want to put it back on ebay "as-is-for-parts"
and buy another one. The economics of having any 'scope
professionally repaired are not good unless you make
a living with these tools.
Avoid the 400 and 500 series 'scopes at any price.
They're excellent professional tools but complex
electronically (more likely to need repair) and
more difficult to learn to use. Also avoid rack-mounted
or plug-in modular scopes. These are mechanically
complex and more likely to suffer performance issues
that you'll not want to have fixed.
Now, with respect to the question before us, it
might be easier for me to go get some current traces
of a production airplane. I think I can get a current
probe or breakout harness into the power line of
the strobes on a Bonanza and get some really nice
data.
However, if you're personally interested in adding
that 'scope to your workbench, go for it. If you do
get it, we'll discuss ways you can go after the data
we're looking for.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ELT Mounting Bracket |
| From: | "JohnInReno" <john(at)morgensen.com> |
Yes - there is an arrow labeled "Forward" opposite the bump and it matches a similar
arrow on the radio that can only be installed one way. I will contact Ameri-King
next week to confirm but your analysis seems correct.
kyrilian_av(at)yahoo.com wrote:
> It's likely the mounting angle has something to do with impact activation during
a crash, where most of the energy will be in the longitudinal direction, but
some will be vertical. In helicopters, this angle will be greater since they
tend to impact at a steeper angle.
>
> The g-switch is likely mounted axial with the box. I presume the instructions
call for one end (the one opposite the 'bump') to be mounted forward. Is this
the case?
>
> Cheers,
> - Kyrilian
>
>
--------
RV-9A - Fuselage
Grumman AA1B-150 (RV-Trainer) Flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2903#202903
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
Or currently $325. for the PDS5022. Mine seems to work fine off a little
12 volt cigarette lighter inverter.
http://saelig.com/
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | What am I doing wrong? |
I know, I know.
I get into these pickles and need a rescue - must be age.....
I want to replace a #4SWG welding cable with brass bar (copper not
available).
The diameter of #4 is (AE Connection, chap.8) 204 mils, or 0.204".
That, times
pi, should give the area. Divide the area by 1/8inch thick bar, gives 5127.1
mils, or
5 inches. I cannot for the life of me believe that a bar cross-section of 5
by 1/8 inches
Is equivalent (approximately) to this piece of #4 here in my hands.....
What am I doing wrong?
Ferg
$1/10 =10 cents; square both sides; $1/100 = 100 cents; 1 cent = $1.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sam Hoskins" <shoskins(at)mchsi.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What am I doing wrong? |
Use pi x R^2
Sam Hoskins
On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Fergus Kyle wrote:
> I know, I know.
> I get into these pickles and need a rescue - must be age.....
> I want to replace a #4SWG welding cable with brass bar (copper not
> available).
> The diameter of #4 is (AE Connection, chap.8) 204 mils, or 0.204".
> That, times
> pi, should give the area. Divide the area by 1/8inch thick bar, gives
> 5127.1
> mils, or
> 5 inches. I cannot for the life of me believe that a bar cross-section of 5
> by 1/8 inches
> Is equivalent (approximately) to this piece of #4 here in my hands.....
> What am I doing wrong?
> Ferg
> $1/10 =10 cents; square both sides; $1/100 = 100 cents; 1 cent = $1.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sam Hoskins" <shoskins(at)mchsi.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What am I doing wrong? |
If I recall, and without looking it up, I seem to recall that:
Area = pi x radius squared
Circumference = pi times diameter
Sam
On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Fergus Kyle wrote:
> I know, I know.
> I get into these pickles and need a rescue - must be age.....
> I want to replace a #4SWG welding cable with brass bar (copper not
> available).
> The diameter of #4 is (AE Connection, chap.8) 204 mils, or 0.204".
> That, times
> pi, should give the area. Divide the area by 1/8inch thick bar, gives
> 5127.1
> mils, or
> 5 inches. I cannot for the life of me believe that a bar cross-section of 5
> by 1/8 inches
> Is equivalent (approximately) to this piece of #4 here in my hands.....
> What am I doing wrong?
> Ferg
> $1/10 =10 cents; square both sides; $1/100 = 100 cents; 1 cent = $1.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What am I doing wrong? |
| From: | Ron Quillin <rjquillin(at)gmail.com> |
At 12:04 9/6/2008, you wrote:
>I know, I know.
> I get into these pickles and need a rescue - must be age.....
> I want to replace a #4SWG welding cable with brass bar (copper not
>available).
> The diameter of #4 is (AE Connection, chap.8) 204 mils, or 0.204".
>That, times
>pi, should give the area.
Actially area is pi x radius squared. But why not just look up the
cross-sectional area?
Depending on stranding AWG-4 the wire table I have shows 41650 to
53314 CMA or 0.232 to 0.257 inch.
Using .257 that would give an area of .40369 sq. in.
>Divide the area by 1/8inch thick bar, gives 5127.1
>mils, or
>5 inches. I cannot for the life of me believe that a bar cross-section of 5
>by 1/8 inches
>Is equivalent (approximately) to this piece of #4 here in my hands.....
> What am I doing wrong?
If you call the area 0.4 and divide by .125 you get 3.2 inches.
Still wide...
>Ferg
>$1/10 =10 cents; square both sides; $1/100 = 100 cents; 1 cent = $1.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What am I doing wrong? |
| From: | Ron Quillin <rjquillin(at)gmail.com> |
Oops, some edits got left out...
At 12:04 9/6/2008, you wrote:
>I know, I know.
> I get into these pickles and need a rescue - must be age.....
> I want to replace a #4SWG welding cable with brass bar (copper not
>available).
> The diameter of #4 is (AE Connection, chap.8) 204 mils, or
> 0.204" diameter.
>That, times
>pi, should give the area.
Pi x diameter is circumference.
Actially area is pi x radius squared. But why not just look up the
cross-sectional area?
Depending on stranding AWG-4 the wire table I have shows 41650 to
53314 CMA or 0.232 to 0.257 inch.
Using .257 that would give an area of .40369 sq. in.
>Divide the area by 1/8inch thick bar, gives 5127.1
>mils, or
>5 inches. I cannot for the life of me believe that a bar cross-section of 5
>by 1/8 inches
>Is equivalent (approximately) to this piece of #4 here in my hands.....
> What am I doing wrong?
If you call the area 0.4 and divide by .125 you get 3.2 inches wide.
Using .53 area you get 4.24 inches wide.
Still pretty wide...
>Ferg
>$1/10 =10 cents; square both sides; $1/100 = 100 cents; 1 cent = $1.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Neal George" <n8zg(at)mchsi.com> |
| Subject: | What am I doing wrong? |
No.
Circumference is pi*d
Area is pi*r(squared)
So. if d=0.204
Then r=0.102
And a=pi*0.102*0.102
a=3.14159*0.010404
a=0.03269 square inches
a/t=w
0.03269/0.125 = 0.2179 wide
Might as well say 1/8" x 1/4"
But you need enough to put a bolt thru.
Cut it 5/8" wide.
neal
_____________________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus
Kyle
Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 2:05 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: What am I doing wrong?
I know, I know.
I get into these pickles and need a rescue - must be age...
I want to replace a #4SWG welding cable with brass bar (copper not
available).
The diameter of #4 is (AE Connection, chap.8) 204 mils, or 0.204".
That, times
pi, should give the area. Divide the area by 1/8inch thick bar, gives 5127.1
mils, or
5 inches. I cannot for the life of me believe that a bar cross-section of 5
by 1/8 inches
Is equivalent (approximately) to this piece of #4 here in my hands...
What am I doing wrong?
Ferg
$1/10 =10 cents; square both sides; $1/100 = 100 cents; 1 cent = $1.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Pienaar" <mjpienaar(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: What am I doing wrong? |
Formula is pi * r*r
3.141 * .102 * .102 = .032685
.032685/.125 = .2614
Thus width of bar required is +/- 1/4 inch.
I'm not an angineer but hope I'm right, good luck
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 12:04 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: What am I doing wrong?
>I know, I know.
> I get into these pickles and need a rescue - must be age.....
> I want to replace a #4SWG welding cable with brass bar (copper not
> available).
> The diameter of #4 is (AE Connection, chap.8) 204 mils, or 0.204".
> That, times
> pi, should give the area. Divide the area by 1/8inch thick bar, gives
> 5127.1
> mils, or
> 5 inches. I cannot for the life of me believe that a bar cross-section of
> 5
> by 1/8 inches
> Is equivalent (approximately) to this piece of #4 here in my hands.....
> What am I doing wrong?
> Ferg
> $1/10 =10 cents; square both sides; $1/100 = 100 cents; 1 cent = $1.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Morgensen <john(at)morgensen.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What am I doing wrong? |
Just a guess, but isn't the formula for area = pi x radius squared?
.204/2 = .102
.102 x .102 = .0104
.0104 x 3.1416 = .0327
.0327 / .125 = .261 or just over 1/4"
john
Fergus Kyle wrote:
> I know, I know.
> I get into these pickles and need a rescue - must be age.....
> I want to replace a #4SWG welding cable with brass bar (copper not
> available).
> The diameter of #4 is (AE Connection, chap.8) 204 mils, or 0.204".
> That, times
> pi, should give the area. Divide the area by 1/8inch thick bar, gives 5127.1
> mils, or
> 5 inches. I cannot for the life of me believe that a bar cross-section of 5
> by 1/8 inches
> Is equivalent (approximately) to this piece of #4 here in my hands.....
> What am I doing wrong?
> Ferg
> $1/10 =10 cents; square both sides; $1/100 = 100 cents; 1 cent = $1.
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
>
>Or currently $325. for the PDS5022. Mine seems to work fine off a little
>12 volt cigarette lighter inverter.
>http://saelig.com/
>Ken
>
Yes, there ARE some attractive alternatives in Non-Tek
hardware. I bought a PDS5022 a couple of years ago and
my software guy has it. I don't know how much he uses
it. I've not taken the time to get familiar with it myself
but the short time that I played with it here in my
shop, it seemed quite capable for the investment.
There's another device from Saelig that's pretty interesting.
See:
http://www.saelig.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=PS042&Category_Code
If I can ever get the fire-fights off my bench, I plan
to pick one of these up. I think it would be useful not
only as a low speed 'scope but the long term "chart recording"
looks attractive too.
Glad you mentioned the inverter thing. Yes, I velcroed
one of those little inverters to the top of a 17 a.h.
SVLA battery. When I was running the TDS 210 in the field,
my scope ran from the 115vac output and the Cannon bubble
jet printer ran directly from the 12v battery. Made for
a compact, self contained test tool. I used it a number
of times during my tenure at B/RAC/HB. The 'scope only needs
about 30 watts of snort as I recall. The itty-bitty inverter
works great.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | What did I do wrong? |
Well, of course - my memory of simple math let me down again!
Thanks to rjquillin and N8ZG, I have found that pi*D is the circumference.
On the other hand I got three different answers, since Circular Mils is a
square of D, the answers are a bit different.
In any event, what an advantage this net is!
Thanks again!
Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vernon Little" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | What am I doing wrong? |
Not to be a pita, but brass has several times the resistance of copper,
depending on the alloy.
Van's Aircraft sells it (ES BUSS BAR-063X.5X12) which is just about what
you
need.
If you use brass, you'd need a lot wider or thicker strip (2 to 7 times
depending on alloy).
Vern Little
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Neal
George
Sent: September 6, 2008 12:43 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: What am I doing wrong?
No.
Circumference is pi*d
Area is pi*r(squared)
So. if d=0.204
Then r=0.102
And a=pi*0.102*0.102
a=3.14159*0.010404
a=0.03269 square inches
a/t=w
0.03269/0.125 = 0.2179 wide
Might as well say 1/8" x 1/4"
But you need enough to put a bolt thru.
Cut it 5/8" wide.
neal
_____________________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Fergus
Kyle
Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 2:05 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: What am I doing wrong?
I know, I know.
I get into these pickles and need a rescue - must be age...
I want to replace a #4SWG welding cable with brass bar (copper
not
available).
The diameter of #4 is (AE Connection, chap.8) 204 mils, or
0.204".
That, times
pi, should give the area. Divide the area by 1/8inch thick bar, gives
5127.1
mils, or
5 inches. I cannot for the life of me believe that a bar cross-section
of 5
by 1/8 inches
Is equivalent (approximately) to this piece of #4 here in my hands...
What am I doing wrong?
Ferg
$1/10 =10 cents; square both sides; $1/100 = 100 cents; 1 cent =
$1.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charles Brame <chasb(at)satx.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch problem |
Bob,
I'll have my shorted out switch in the mail on Monday.
Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB
San Antonio
---------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem
> Interestingly I have had almost the same problem. With a little
> over 200
> hours on the aircraft my Whelen strobe system stopped working. It
> did not
> open the 10A fuse, but when switched on the strobes would flash for
> about
> 10 seconds and then stop. I was thinking that it was a problem
> with the
> Whelen unit but it is in a very difficult place to get to in my RV8
> (under
> the floor) so I haven t yet gone to the effort to take up the floor to
> check it out. I looked at the fuse block and things looked good.
> Until I
> read this thread I didn t think about looking at the switch&..my
> mistake.
>
Not a mistake . . . just an unhappy discovery that
one ingredient in your system's recipe for success may
not be performing as-advertised.
> When I examined the switch today I discovered that the blue
> insulation
> on the Fast-On connectors had darkened considerably, indicating
> that they
> have been getting hot. They are still firmly attached to the wire
> but it
> appears there is an internal problem in the switch that is causing
> excessive heat.
>
A logical deduction.
> It is the B&C 1-3 switch referenced in this discussion. I have just
> ordered a few of the Honeywell switches from Digi-Key and will
> replace it
> with one of those.
>
I'd really like to put my hands on the overheated switch
for teardown, documentation and analysis.
> -------------snip---------------------------------------
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Neil Clayton <harvey4(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Ammeter reading oddly |
When I first start the engine, and then engage the alternator, the
Van's ammeter flips over to +20 for a few seconds.
Then it gradually descends to zero and settles a needle's width on
the -ve side of zero, where it sits for the duration.
If I turn the alternator off, the ammeter goes to -10 so I know it's
sensing something, but the slight -ve reading in flight bothers me.
Do you think it's just an adjustment issue on the gauge, or is
something else going on?
Thanks for ideas.
Neil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ammeter reading oddly |
>
>When I first start the engine, and then engage the alternator, the Van's
>ammeter flips over to +20 for a few seconds.
>Then it gradually descends to zero and settles a needle's width on the -ve
>side of zero, where it sits for the duration.
>If I turn the alternator off, the ammeter goes to -10 so I know it's
>sensing something, but the slight -ve reading in flight bothers me.
>
>Do you think it's just an adjustment issue on the gauge, or is something
>else going on?
Van's ammeter is an electronically signal conditioned instrument
with scale and offset adjustment pots inside. It sounds like
it's just out of calibration. This is ONE of the reasons
I don't recommend battery ammeters.
If you also have a voltmeter . . . THIS is the true guardian
of flight confidence. If the voltage is staying above
battery charge levels 13.8 minimum, 14.2 nominal, 14.6 maximum
then all is well in Electronville.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did I do wrong? |
| From: | Ron Quillin <rjquillin(at)gmail.com> |
At 13:14 9/6/2008, you wrote:
>Well, of course - my memory of simple math let me down again!
>Thanks to rjquillin and N8ZG, I have found that pi*D is the circumference.
>On the other hand I got three different answers, since Circular Mils is a
>square of D, the answers are a bit different.
> In any event, what an advantage this net is!
>Thanks again!
>Ferg
Mercy, the coffee and day finally kicked in...
No one ripped me earlier, despite my rightfully deserving it.
Besides being decimally challenged, and suffering fat fingers, I
forgot the CMA to in2 conversion of .7854 x 10e-6.
That .204 diameter listed is for solid wire, you don't have solid
wire and there is void area between the individual strands of the
cable, so to use that, solid, diameter would yield a result with some error.
You said #4 welding so it's likely not the 7x19/25 rope lay cable,
but either 259/27 or more likely 1666/36. The CMA of 1666/36 is
41650 from a stranded wire table. Cross sectional area in sq mils =
CMA x .7854; 41650 x .7854 = 32712 square mil or 0.032712 square
in. So .032712/.125 = 0.261696 width required to equal the same
conductor area.
Factoring in resistivity, from an old Chem-Physics handbook,
'properties of metals used as conductors' lists resistivity of
annealed copper as 1.72 and brass as 7. So brass has about 4.12
times more resistance. Take that .26 x 4.12 and you have a bit over
an inch; 1.07.
So, if I haven't again had a massive brain f**t, it would seem a bit
more than an inch width of your 1/8 inch brass would equal AWG-4
copper welding cable; at 20C.
I think I got it correct this time, but do check it out...
Ron Q.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What am I doing wrong? |
| From: | Larry Mac Donald <lm4(at)juno.com> |
Fergus,
Area is Pi-R squared. Not Pi-Dia.
> I know, I know.
> I get into these pickles and need a rescue - must be
> age.....
> I want to replace a #4SWG welding cable with brass bar
> (copper not
> available).
> The diameter of #4 is (AE Connection, chap.8) 204 mils, or
> 0.204".
> That, times
> pi, should give the area. Divide the area by 1/8inch thick bar,
> gives 5127.1
> mils, or
> 5 inches. I cannot for the life of me believe that a bar
> cross-section of 5
> by 1/8 inches
> Is equivalent (approximately) to this piece of #4 here in my
> hands.....
> What am I doing wrong?
> Ferg
> $1/10 =10 cents; square both sides; $1/100 = 100 cents; 1 cent =
> $1.
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________
Scan, remove and block Spyware. Click now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3mEzAUF1Liy488t3Nkir4XU7ja2Dl5rguTmoN9BVKOsAsg9T/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Neil Clayton <harvey4(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Another alternator question |
Also at low RPM (1000-1200) I'm seeing a "pulsing" of the ammeter,
which I took to mean the alternator is on the cusp of turning on and off.
(Also the RPM is pulsing too suggesting the alternator load is
turning on and off).
Does the alternator turn off at low revs? What dictates the
switching? Can I affect the switching point?
Thanks
Neil
At 06:10 PM 9/6/2008, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>>
>>When I first start the engine, and then engage the alternator, the
>>Van's ammeter flips over to +20 for a few seconds.
>>Then it gradually descends to zero and settles a needle's width on
>>the -ve side of zero, where it sits for the duration.
>>If I turn the alternator off, the ammeter goes to -10 so I know
>>it's sensing something, but the slight -ve reading in flight bothers me.
>>
>>Do you think it's just an adjustment issue on the gauge, or is
>>something else going on?
>
> Van's ammeter is an electronically signal conditioned instrument
> with scale and offset adjustment pots inside. It sounds like
> it's just out of calibration. This is ONE of the reasons
> I don't recommend battery ammeters.
>
> If you also have a voltmeter . . . THIS is the true guardian
> of flight confidence. If the voltage is staying above
> battery charge levels 13.8 minimum, 14.2 nominal, 14.6 maximum
> then all is well in Electronville.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------)
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: What did I do wrong? |
>
>At 13:14 9/6/2008, you wrote:
>>Well, of course - my memory of simple math let me down again!
>>Thanks to rjquillin and N8ZG, I have found that pi*D is the circumference.
>>On the other hand I got three different answers, since Circular Mils is a
>>square of D, the answers are a bit different.
>> In any event, what an advantage this net is!
>>Thanks again!
>>Ferg
>
>Mercy, the coffee and day finally kicked in...
>No one ripped me earlier, despite my rightfully deserving it.
>Besides being decimally challenged, and suffering fat fingers, I forgot
>the CMA to in2 conversion of .7854 x 10e-6.
>
>That .204 diameter listed is for solid wire, you don't have solid wire and
>there is void area between the individual strands of the cable, so to use
>that, solid, diameter would yield a result with some error.
>
>You said #4 welding so it's likely not the 7x19/25 rope lay cable, but
>either 259/27 or more likely 1666/36. The CMA of 1666/36 is 41650 from a
>stranded wire table. Cross sectional area in sq mils = CMA x .7854;
>41650 x .7854 = 32712 square mil or 0.032712 square in. So .032712/.125 =
>0.261696 width required to equal the same conductor area.
>
>Factoring in resistivity, from an old Chem-Physics handbook, 'properties
>of metals used as conductors' lists resistivity of annealed copper as 1.72
>and brass as 7. So brass has about 4.12 times more resistance. Take that
>.26 x 4.12 and you have a bit over an inch; 1.07.
>
>So, if I haven't again had a massive brain f**t, it would seem a bit more
>than an inch width of your 1/8 inch brass would equal AWG-4 copper welding
>cable; at 20C.
>
>I think I got it correct this time, but do check it out...
Bravo my friend. There is no substitute for considered
application of simple ideas which includes facts of physics
and artfully applied math. Your assumptions and deductions
based thereon are in the ballpark. I'll leave it to others
to grade your math. The point I'd like to make here is
that all such questions yield nicely to this kind
of thought process. It's also useful to consider other
details. For example, I've oft suggested that ALL battery(+)
and battery(-) jumpers be made of 4AWG welding cable irrespective
of fat wire sizes used elsewhere. This is a consideration of
the fragile nature of lead posts used on some batteries
combined with the difficulty of using only two hands to
position wire, bolt, and washer in relation to the post
while a nut is installed. More than one set of hardware
has been launched into the nether regions of structure
by a stiff battery jumper that got loose!
It's a study in trade offs. If the electrics of Ferg's jumper
are higher loss than 4AWG equivalent, how bad is the temperature
rise during a cranking event? Keep in mind that the flat strap
sheds heat faster than a round, insulated wire. How bad is
the voltage drop during a cranking event? We KNOW that the
system total loop resistance is significant. See:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/Voltage_Drop_Study_2.pdf
Gee . . . it may well be that the thin brass strip originally
proposed might be okay in the grand scheme of things.
I mention all this only because the elegant solution
considers ALL the ingredients that go into a recipe for
success . . . of which getting the math right for deducing
equivalency is but one part.
Thanks for taking the time to walk us through this
exercise!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Pengilly" <peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
| Subject: | Ammeter reading oddly |
You probably don't really want to hear this, but Van's gauges aren't the
best quality items on the planet. I have found that the temperature and
pressure gauges are not that accurate (+/- 15%), so no reason why the
ammeter should be any better! I've always found a voltmeter very
comforting to tell the alternator is still at work.
Regards, Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Neil
Clayton
Sent: 06 September 2008 22:50
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ammeter reading oddly
When I first start the engine, and then engage the alternator, the
Van's ammeter flips over to +20 for a few seconds.
Then it gradually descends to zero and settles a needle's width on
the -ve side of zero, where it sits for the duration.
If I turn the alternator off, the ammeter goes to -10 so I know it's
sensing something, but the slight -ve reading in flight bothers me.
Do you think it's just an adjustment issue on the gauge, or is
something else going on?
Thanks for ideas.
Neil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Igntion Switches------ (Electrical Grimlens) |
FINAL REPORT!!!!!!!!
After removing the engine ground system, that I ran through the motor mount
via light jumpers, and replacing it with a fat Braded Bonding Strap (#2 AWG)
direct from the engine to the battery negative the movement of the oil
pressure needle was almost eliminated. Not enough to worry about now.
The radio turned out to be a separate problem. With the engine off, the
battery and radio on I held the PTT and wiggled wires behind the panel. I
was able to recreate the intermittent TX. It turned out to be a defective
BNC connection, faulty assembly! It only lasted 10 years.
Thanks to all who made suggestions!
I now have a fresh (clean) and improved ground system.
Tim N52TY TIME TO GO FLYING
----- Original Message -----
From: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: Igntion Switches------ (Electrical Grimlens)
> {#} Replies are directed back to kisbuilders(at)angus.mystery.com
> {#} To reply to the author, write to
>
> 8/1/2008
>
> Hello Tim, While I am pondering your situation I will pass your info on to
> the experts on the Matronics aeroelectric-list to see what they can come
up
> with.
>
> 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
> understand knowledge."
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 5:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Igntion Switches------ (Electrical Grimlens)
>
>
> > {#} Replies are directed back to kisbuilders(at)angus.mystery.com
> > {#} To reply to the author, write to "F. Tim Yoder"
> >
> >
> > Hi OC,
> >
> > Two things;
> >
> > First, I flew my TR-1, with a friend, to OSH on the 26th and returned
the
> > 31st. We actually flew into FLD From Mesa AZ (FFZ). Their were
noticabley
> > fewer people in the crowd but the number of planes on the ramp at OSH
and
> > FLD seemed about the same as last year. I flew from Mesa, AZ to FLD,
about
> > 1350 nm and back using 125.1 GAL. in 19.8 HRS. That works out to 6.32
GPH,
> > not bad! My TR-1 has the IO-240 B1B and I flew at 2550 RPM slightly rich
> > of
> > peak. Also, I have the Light Speed Elect. Ign. on one side.
> >
> > Second, I need some help!
> > A couple of months ago I noticed that after starting my engine the
elect.
> > oil pressure needle would jump when I turned on the Altinator switch,
> > sometimes. Now I notice it doing that every time I start up. also, I
find
> > that ocasionally when the oil temp. is hot the needle will pulse from
> > 45psi
> > to 35psi. Then yesterday, the first flight after returning from OSH, I
> > flew
> > to another local airport for cheeper fuel. My radio transmitted normally
> > leaving however, when I transmitted at the destination airport it was
> > garbled and unreadable. I noticed that the TX symbel was flashing during
> > my
> > transmissions. My reception was clear. After fueling I transmitted and
the
> > radio appeared to be okay. When I got back to my home field my
> > transmissions
> > were garbled again. When I got back to the hanger I determined the
> > following.
> > At idle RPM I could hear a little of the clicking noise during test
> > transmissions.
> > The co-pilot PTT did the same thing.
> > I also noticed that the oil pressure needle would jump when I pushed the
> > PTT.
> > I pulled all the circut breakers one at a time and was unable to
eliminate
> > the problem.
> > With the radio off the oil pressure needle jumps when I cycle the
> > altinator
> > switch.
> >
> > I hope this information might allow you to give me some suggestions on
> > what
> > might be going on.
> > Personally I think it's Voo Doo & Black Magic!
> >
> > Thanks, Tim
>
>
> {#} ----------------------------------------------------+[
kisbuilders ]+---
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kitplanes article on an Elegant LED driver |
| From: | "Brantel" <bchesteen(at)hughes.net> |
Bob,
I sent you my address to the nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
email account.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3113#203113
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | proper cable for engine instrument |
| From: | "apg86" <apg86(at)hotmail.com> |
I need to run the cables for the engine monitor. Which is the better cable to run I want to have at least 20 leads for a 6 cylinder engine with turbo and fuel flow. I'm thinking to get the G3 from http://www.insightavionics.com/g3.htm
any suggestion
Thanks for the advice
--------
Andrew P Geraghty
Corona CA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3123#203123
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Ammeter reading oddly |
>
>
>You probably don't really want to hear this, but Van's gauges aren't the
>best quality items on the planet. I have found that the temperature and
>pressure gauges are not that accurate (+/- 15%), so no reason why the
>ammeter should be any better! I've always found a voltmeter very
>comforting to tell the alternator is still at work.
>
>Regards, Peter
I have a Van's battery ammeter which I've confirmed does
have a sensitivity to strong RF fields. I disassembled
the gage and was pleasantly surprised at the level of
technology used in this particular instrument. I'll
direct the reader's attention to the suite of photos
at:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Instruments/Vans/
In particular, note the potentiometers (blue)
in this view . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Instruments/Vans/VAM10_05.JPG
I suspect these adjustments are included in all
the Vans instruments in this style.
In general, I found them well assembled and
artfully designed. These use a 4-quadrant,
moving-magnet motor to drive a pointer. This
is the technology of choice in most mechanical
instrumentation used throughout the automotive
industry. They're inexpensive, rugged and capable
of exemplary accuracy.
They DO require some signal conditioning electronics
and the electronics are subject to the usual
snakes and gremlins. Long term drift (calibration
stability) and RF susceptibility are the
biggest issues. Indeed, the instrument I have
exhibits a characteristic I've never seen before
in an instrument.
A hand-held transceiver waved around the
powered up instrument will drive the pointer
either direction depending on position of
the antenna. See:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Instruments/Vans/VAM10_09.JPG
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Instruments/Vans/VAM10_10.JPG
Mechanically, I was surprised that they use
thru-hole parts . . . this is NOT the most economical
way to assemble a complex device in volumes.
The largest disappointment was components
that stand up on their lead wires. These instruments
might be at risk for loosing a component under
qualification vibration.
Generally speaking, this series of instrument
appear to be of good value . . . particularly
if they ALL have calibration pots. I can live
with long term changes in calibration as long
as I can RECALIBRATE as necessary.
I hadn't planned to write about these devices
until I've solved the RFI problem . . . but I
didn't want this thread to move forward without
making folks aware of useful details about
how they're built.
The two potentiometers probably adjust offset
(zero) and scale (calibration). They may be
interactive meaning that one has to rock back
and forth between zero and full-scale readings
so that the pots can be set dead-on.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | What did I do wrong? |
Bob,
You said:
" It's a study in trade offs. If the electrics of Ferg's jumper
are higher loss than 4AWG equivalent, how bad is the temperature
rise during a cranking event? Keep in mind that the flat strap
sheds heat faster than a round, insulated wire. How bad is
the voltage drop during a cranking event? We KNOW that the
system total loop resistance is significant. See:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/Voltage_Drop_Study_2.pdf
Gee . . . it may well be that the thin brass strip originally
proposed might be okay in the grand scheme of things.
I mention all this only because the elegant solution
considers ALL the ingredients that go into a recipe for
success . . . of which getting the math right for deducing
equivalency is but one part."
Well, I went there, and behold a neat resistance diagram - good
stuff...... Did you do this with a "megger"? I remember my mentor (lo
those many years) going over all my work with his megger to confirm - I
thought - good connections and no shorts. Is that still the routine?
Ferg
PS: My main purpose in brass was to establish the shape and size while
looking for a copper source.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: proper cable for engine instrument |
>
>I need to run the cables for the engine monitor. Which is the better cable
>to run I want to have at least 20 leads for a 6 cylinder engine with turbo
>and fuel flow. I'm thinking to get the G3 from
>http://www.insightavionics.com/g3.htm
>any suggestion
>
>Thanks for the advice
In the big iron birds, this kind of instrument
would be installed using factory bundles of
individual wires . . . ESPECIALLY when part
of that installation is thermocouple wire.
See what the installation manual calls for
first. I suspect it will suggest built-up
bundles. Use 22759 for the copper, and
the good stuff . . .
http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=XC_K_TC_WIRE&Nav=temh06
for thermocouples.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: What did I do wrong? |
| From: | Ron Quillin <rjquillin(at)gmail.com> |
At 07:26 9/8/2008, you wrote:
>PS: My main purpose in brass was to establish the shape and size while
>looking for a copper source.
Try McMaster-Carr.
8964K271 is a 0.125 x 12" Alloy 110 Electronic-Grade Copper for $7.33.
Many other sizes available.
http://www.mcmaster.com/
Ron Q.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
| Subject: | Ammeter reading oddly |
It's the gauge...The fact the ammeter swings high for a few seconds then returns
to normal indicates that everything is working normally.
Explanation....
You have a battery that spits out hundreds of amps in 3 to 5 second burst to run
the starter...Now think of that energy as a tank of water...You sunddenly opened
a big valve at the bottom and let a lot of water out...Now the ballvalve
opens and it gradually gets topped up by the small filler pipe until its full
then the valve closes and then it stops.
Well the alternator is is the small filler pipe and the ammeter is measureing the
flowrate back into the tank..I mean battery.
That few seconds of +20A is the alternator topping the battery off.
Now if the ammeter goes to -10A and stays there in flight you got a problem.
Realistically ammeters are a bit of a waste of time, My Dynon has one and I never
look at it..But I do have an alarm on battery volts..if it drops to 12.5V I
get an audible alarm...Then I look at the amps.
Frank
RV7a IO360 electric fuel pumps only. Now featuring mogas+ 10% ethanol.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Pengilly
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 1:56 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ammeter reading oddly
-->
You probably don't really want to hear this, but Van's gauges aren't the best quality
items on the planet. I have found that the temperature and pressure gauges
are not that accurate (+/- 15%), so no reason why the ammeter should be any
better! I've always found a voltmeter very comforting to tell the alternator
is still at work.
Regards, Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Neil Clayton
Sent: 06 September 2008 22:50
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ammeter reading oddly
When I first start the engine, and then engage the alternator, the Van's ammeter
flips over to +20 for a few seconds.
Then it gradually descends to zero and settles a needle's width on the -ve side
of zero, where it sits for the duration.
If I turn the alternator off, the ammeter goes to -10 so I know it's sensing something,
but the slight -ve reading in flight bothers me.
Do you think it's just an adjustment issue on the gauge, or is something else going
on?
Thanks for ideas.
Neil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | What did I do wrong? |
Cheers,
At the risk of flogging this dog of a topic, I consulted an old
friend, "Handbook of
Applied Mathematics" in stumbling through several attempts to assimilate
Ron's excellent
application. I quote:
"Wires are often grouped in smaller ropes for ease of use. The group of
wires is called a
"strand"; the term "wire" being reserved for the individual wires of the
strand. Strands are
usually built of wires of such a size that the cross-section of the
metal in
the strand is the
same as the cross-section of the solid wire having the same gage (sic)
number."
This book also gave me a value of 204 mils in diam.
Half that, squared, times pi, gave me 32781 square mils. Divide by a
thickness of
125 mils gives 261-odd mils or =BC inch. So, .25 by .125 inches seems
correct
but 1/16 by
=BD inch seems easier, in copper.
I must remember pie are round, cake are square.
Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: What did I do wrong? |
>Bob,
> You said:
>" It's a study in trade offs. If the electrics of Ferg's jumper
> are higher loss than 4AWG equivalent, how bad is the temperature
> rise during a cranking event? Keep in mind that the flat strap
> sheds heat faster than a round, insulated wire. How bad is
> the voltage drop during a cranking event? We KNOW that the
> system total loop resistance is significant. See:
>http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/Voltage_Drop_Study_2.pdf
> Gee . . . it may well be that the thin brass strip originally
> proposed might be okay in the grand scheme of things.
> I mention all this only because the elegant solution
> considers ALL the ingredients that go into a recipe for
> success . . . of which getting the math right for deducing
> equivalency is but one part."
> Well, I went there, and behold a neat resistance diagram - good
>stuff...... Did you do this with a "megger"? I remember my mentor (lo
>those many years) going over all my work with his megger to confirm - I
>thought - good connections and no shorts. Is that still the routine?
>Ferg
A 'megger' is what the name implies, a meg-ohmmeter
usually with a capability of reading thousands of
meg ohms. This device would be used to measure insulation
resistance while powered up at hundreds if not 1000 volts.
The diagram was a hypothetical based on experiences. Although
there are micro-ohmmeters that can be used to measure very
small resistances directly. The one I have is like this
http://www.avtron.com/pdf/ate/t477w.pdf
While the 'megger' uses very high voltage to detect and
quantify very large resistances the micro-ohmmeter
or bonding meter uses high currents to detect and
quantify very low resistances.
>PS: My main purpose in brass was to establish the shape and size while
>looking for a copper source.
Did we get you covered? There was a lot of 'stuff' flying
around there for awhile. 4awg is 0.2 dia, 0.1 radius.
0.1(squared) x 3.14 or 0.031 square inches cross section. This
means that a .032" piece 1" wide copper has the same cross
section and conductivity.
I may have some .032" or 22 gage (.025") sheet stock
in M.L. I'll check tomorrow when I'm there.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com> |
| Subject: | Re: proper cable for engine instrument |
Bob,
Recently, you have made a couple references to solid thermocouple grade
wire (via Omega website links), rather than the stranded thermocouple
extension grade wire I was planning on using, for long runs from
thermocouple to the instrument. What is the advantages/disadvantages of
one over the other for these long runs? I based my thinking on an
understanding that stranded is more durable than equal sized solid in
aircraft applications.
Thanks,
Steve Stearns
Boulder/Longmont, Colorado
CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less)
Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs)
Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Electronics 101...Advanced. |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Occasionally I get an inquiry from a customer who is checking out his electrical
system and finds what they view as an error--They test solid state components
that are supposed to be OFF, or diodes that are supposed to not conduct, and
they measure a voltage on the output. This they think must indicate a failure.
Usually, I can't figure this out from the description until some emails or calls
have been exchanged, but it always boils down to the following--
The existence of an "output voltage", even a very substantial voltage, does not
mean much. If there was a load connected from the output, there would be no measured
voltage (on a standard voltmeter).
Voltmeters always possess a load. Digital types are usually 10 MegOhms, which is
small enough to interfere very little with the circuit being measured, but for
many applications can lead to incorrect or puzzling results--for example measuring
dry cell batteries, or the output of solid state switches or diodes--In
these tasks, output load is important. (It is trivial to make a voltmeter with
GigaOhms or greater resistance but they find little use except in the rare
experiment.)
"The problem with the world is that only the intelligent people want to be
smarter, and only the good people want to improve."
- Eolake Stobblehouse
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3378#203378
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: proper cable for engine instrument |
>
>Bob,
>
>Recently, you have made a couple references to solid thermocouple grade
>wire (via Omega website links), rather than the stranded thermocouple
>extension grade wire I was planning on using, for long runs from
>thermocouple to the instrument. What is the advantages/disadvantages of
>one over the other for these long runs? I based my thinking on an
>understanding that stranded is more durable than equal sized solid in
>aircraft applications.
Either is fine. I have both on the shelves. I prefer stranded
20AWG wire for crimping into d-sub pins but the preference
is subtle . . . I perceive a tiny advantage in smaller strands
yielding to a gas-tight crush within the pin.
If you have access to solid, don't go buy stranded to
replace it. But if you're ordering from scratch, the
stranded is a bit more attractive.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Electronics 101...Advanced. |
Eric
Now that you initiated a pedagogic thread, you should go to the bottom
of
it.
For us, non-EE and electronically-challenged (should I say ignorant?)
guys,
that is a real situation! For me, it=92s a =93Been-there-done-that=94
case =85 :-)
I did measure, with my digital voltmeter, one used AA battery and one
just
off the blister, and both readings were 1.5V
Can you enlighten us?
Carlos
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-
> server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones
> Sent: ter=E7a-feira, 9 de Setembro de 2008 15:47
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electronics 101...Advanced.
>
>
> Occasionally I get an inquiry from a customer who is checking out his
electrical
> system and finds what they view as an error--They test solid state
components that
> are supposed to be OFF, or diodes that are supposed to not conduct,
and
they
> measure a voltage on the output. This they think must indicate a
failure.
>
> Usually, I can't figure this out from the description until some
emails or
calls have
> been exchanged, but it always boils down to the following--
>
> The existence of an "output voltage", even a very substantial voltage,
does not
> mean much. If there was a load connected from the output, there would
be
no
> measured voltage (on a standard voltmeter).
>
> Voltmeters always possess a load. Digital types are usually 10
MegOhms,
which is
> small enough to interfere very little with the circuit being measured,
but
for many
> applications can lead to incorrect or puzzling results--for example
measuring dry
> cell batteries, or the output of solid state switches or diodes--In
these
tasks, output
> load is important. (It is trivial to make a voltmeter with GigaOhms or
greater
> resistance but they find little use except in the rare experiment.)
>
> "The problem with the world is that only the intelligent people want
to be
> smarter, and only the good people want to improve."
> - Eolake Stobblehouse
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones(at)charter.net
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3378#203378
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Electronics 101...Advanced. |
| From: | "MTBehnke" <mtbehnke2(at)msn.com> |
> Occasionally I get an inquiry from a customer who is checking out his electrical
system and finds what they view as an error--They test solid state components
that are supposed to be OFF, or diodes that are supposed to not conduct, and
they measure a voltage on the output. This they think must indicate a failure.
>
So a real life example might be someone checking to see if their essential bus
diode is working by measuring voltage using their multimeter. One might find
12-14V at the main bus when the e-bus alternate feed is on and the battery contactor
is off and therefore assume the diode isn't working. Further tests might
reveal that while you might measure a non-zero voltage at the main bus, there
is no current available if one was to try to power a device, such as a light.
Anyone ever have this happen?
--------
Mike Behnke
RV-9A Finish/FFwd
Andover, MN
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3466#203466
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Etienne Phillips" <etienne.phillips(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | SD-8, voltage regulator and OV module |
Hi all
I would like to install a SD-8 into my currently alternatorless VFR
aircraft, but I'm a bit confused... What voltage regulator do I need to use?
I'm planning on using the 504-1 OV module, with the standard 5A circuit
breaker.
I'd also prefer not to have another switch between the alternator and the
main bus. If I need to disconnect the alternator from the bus, I'll pull the
breaker, which will de-power the relay in the OV circuit.
Thanks
Etienne
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SD-8, voltage regulator and OV module |
>Hi all
>
>I would like to install a SD-8 into my currently alternatorless VFR
>aircraft, but I'm a bit confused... What voltage regulator do I need to
>use? I'm planning on using the 504-1 OV module, with the standard 5A
>circuit breaker.
>
>I'd also prefer not to have another switch between the alternator and the
>main bus. If I need to disconnect the alternator from the bus, I'll pull
>the breaker, which will de-power the relay in the OV circuit.
that will work
bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SD-8, voltage regulator and OV module |
>Hi all
>
>I would like to install a SD-8 into my currently alternatorless VFR
>aircraft, but I'm a bit confused... What voltage regulator do I need to
>use? I'm planning on using the 504-1 OV module, with the standard 5A
>circuit breaker.
The regulator comes with the SD-8
>I'd also prefer not to have another switch between the alternator and the
>main bus. If I need to disconnect the alternator from the bus, I'll pull
>the breaker, which will de-power the relay in the OV circuit.
that will work
bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Tefzel Blade Wire Strippers |
The wire strippers I mentioned a few days ago are
in stock and listed at:
https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/AECcatalog.html
These turned out to be in very good shape.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Etienne Phillips" <etienne.phillips(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: SD-8, voltage regulator and OV module |
Great!
One less thing to buy ;-)
Thanks Bob
2008/9/10 Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
>
>
>> Hi all
>>
>> I would like to install a SD-8 into my currently alternatorless VFR
>> aircraft, but I'm a bit confused... What voltage regulator do I need to use?
>> I'm planning on using the 504-1 OV module, with the standard 5A circuit
>> breaker.
>>
>
> The regulator comes with the SD-8
>
>
> I'd also prefer not to have another switch between the alternator and the
>> main bus. If I need to disconnect the alternator from the bus, I'll pull the
>> breaker, which will de-power the relay in the OV circuit.
>>
>
> that will work
>
> bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Electronics 101...Advanced. |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Mike,
I am certain there are, at least among my customers. With reference to the negative
ground, an extremely high impedance voltmeter will measure voltages on everything,
everybody, everywhere that is not firmly connected to ground. Even the
disconnected output terminal of a mechanical relay or switch, or disconnected
wires or metal will display a voltage.
Carlos,
A battery is only useful if it can deliver current (or power). Battery test meters
differ from voltmeters because they impose a small load on the battery being
measured. For 1.5V AA cells a load of 100 mA will do, so a load R of 1.5V/0.100A.
So a 15 Ohm load will do while measuring the voltage across the cell.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve
to get it good and hard." -- H. L. Mencken
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3586#203586
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vernon Little" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
I was wrong about my replacement switch--- I was looking at the wrong one.
In fact, it IS failing, and the fast-on insulation is discolored. I
discovered this by detecting overheating switches on my panel today.
Furthermore, not only was the STROBE switch very hot, but the WIG-WAG and
TAXI switches were hot as well. I discovered this today. On the ground, my
panel was feeling warm, and I touched the back these switches. I burned my
finger on the STROBE switch (hurt for an hour), and the other switches were
hot as well, but not quite as bad.
These are the switches that are most often ON in flight (current flows
through one pole of the TAXI and LANDING switches when WIG-WAG is on). I
turned them OFF, turned on my LANDING light switch, and it got hot as well.
None of the other switches (MASTER (replaced once), PITOT (rarely used), NAV
(rarely used), FLAPS and BOOST PUMP and AVIONICS were warm when operated.
So I now have four more switch failures! This is now a total of 6 failures
in my a/c in 2.5 years. All are Carling switches.
I will be replacing all of the heavy load carrying switches in my A/C
immediately with another brand. In my opinion, all of these Carling
switches are suspect and everyone should check them for overheating.
Bob, this looks like a serious issue, in need of some further pursuit!
Thanks,
Vern
-->
I checked the switch that I installed as a replacement for the one that I
fried about 100 hours ago. No sign of external damage or discoloration on
the new switch.
My failed switch was installed in 2005, purchased somewhat earlier. I had
two switches that had loose rivets, so I'm wondering if there was a QC
problem with the Carling switches made about that time. It would be
interesting to see the date codes on the failed switches.
My failed switch says C0344 Mexico. My guess was this is a date code (44th
week in 2003?). The one Bob analysed says 9936 Mexico on it.
Vern
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
Hi Vern,
Check the crimps on your faston connectors. If the crimps are getting
hot they could be conducting heat into the switch tabs. The simplest
way to check would be to make a male faston jumper and replace one of
the switches that is getting hot, then turn on the master.
It might be a bad batch of switches, but it would be worth checking the
crimps before pulling all of them out.
Bob W.
"Vernon Little" wrote:
>
> I was wrong about my replacement switch--- I was looking at the wrong one.
> In fact, it IS failing, and the fast-on insulation is discolored. I
> discovered this by detecting overheating switches on my panel today.
>
> Furthermore, not only was the STROBE switch very hot, but the WIG-WAG and
> TAXI switches were hot as well. I discovered this today. On the ground, my
> panel was feeling warm, and I touched the back these switches. I burned my
> finger on the STROBE switch (hurt for an hour), and the other switches were
> hot as well, but not quite as bad.
>
> These are the switches that are most often ON in flight (current flows
> through one pole of the TAXI and LANDING switches when WIG-WAG is on). I
> turned them OFF, turned on my LANDING light switch, and it got hot as well.
>
>
> None of the other switches (MASTER (replaced once), PITOT (rarely used), NAV
> (rarely used), FLAPS and BOOST PUMP and AVIONICS were warm when operated.
>
> So I now have four more switch failures! This is now a total of 6 failures
> in my a/c in 2.5 years. All are Carling switches.
>
> I will be replacing all of the heavy load carrying switches in my A/C
> immediately with another brand. In my opinion, all of these Carling
> switches are suspect and everyone should check them for overheating.
>
> Bob, this looks like a serious issue, in need of some further pursuit!
>
> Thanks,
> Vern
>
>
> -->
>
> I checked the switch that I installed as a replacement for the one that I
> fried about 100 hours ago. No sign of external damage or discoloration on
> the new switch.
>
> My failed switch was installed in 2005, purchased somewhat earlier. I had
> two switches that had loose rivets, so I'm wondering if there was a QC
> problem with the Carling switches made about that time. It would be
> interesting to see the date codes on the failed switches.
>
> My failed switch says C0344 Mexico. My guess was this is a date code (44th
> week in 2003?). The one Bob analysed says 9936 Mexico on it.
>
> Vern
>
--
N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com
3.8 Hours Total Time and holding
Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/cables/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vernon Little" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
I will check this for sure, but the evidence is contrary. If it was the
crimps that were the source, they should all be discolored. In addition, I
felt the terminals when operating to see if they were loose. They were not,
and they were not as hot as the switch.
I pulled apart one of the failed switches (from one of the two that failed
in 2006) and it was damaged, similar to Bob's failure analysis on his
website.
The terminals are the Avikrimp type and attached using a proper ratcheting
crimp tool.
I've ordered a batch of Honeywell Micro Switch switches as replacements. I
will pull all of the offending Carling switches and redo the burnt fastons
on the Strobe supply switch (for the second time). I will probably
sacrifice another one of the Carling switches to failure analysis gods to
see if the internals are fried like the first one.
Fortunately, the switches run in a row along the bottom of my panel and are
easy to replace. See
http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/115_1542_1.jpg. It
should only take me an hour to do the major offenders and get back in the
air. Right now, I've grounded my a/c due to this problem.
Stay tuned.
Vern
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob White
Sent: September 10, 2008 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE***
Hi Vern,
Check the crimps on your faston connectors. If the crimps are getting hot
they could be conducting heat into the switch tabs. The simplest way to
check would be to make a male faston jumper and replace one of the switches
that is getting hot, then turn on the master.
It might be a bad batch of switches, but it would be worth checking the
crimps before pulling all of them out.
Bob W.
"Vernon Little" wrote:
> -->
>
> I was wrong about my replacement switch--- I was looking at the wrong
> one. In fact, it IS failing, and the fast-on insulation is discolored.
> I discovered this by detecting overheating switches on my panel today.
>
> Furthermore, not only was the STROBE switch very hot, but the WIG-WAG
> and TAXI switches were hot as well. I discovered this today. On the
> ground, my panel was feeling warm, and I touched the back these
> switches. I burned my finger on the STROBE switch (hurt for an hour),
> and the other switches were hot as well, but not quite as bad.
>
> These are the switches that are most often ON in flight (current flows
> through one pole of the TAXI and LANDING switches when WIG-WAG is on).
> I turned them OFF, turned on my LANDING light switch, and it got hot
> as well.
>
>
> None of the other switches (MASTER (replaced once), PITOT (rarely
> used), NAV (rarely used), FLAPS and BOOST PUMP and AVIONICS were warm
> when operated.
>
> So I now have four more switch failures! This is now a total of 6
> failures in my a/c in 2.5 years. All are Carling switches.
>
> I will be replacing all of the heavy load carrying switches in my A/C
> immediately with another brand. In my opinion, all of these Carling
> switches are suspect and everyone should check them for overheating.
>
> Bob, this looks like a serious issue, in need of some further pursuit!
>
> Thanks,
> Vern
>
>
> -->
>
> I checked the switch that I installed as a replacement for the one
> that I fried about 100 hours ago. No sign of external damage or
> discoloration on the new switch.
>
> My failed switch was installed in 2005, purchased somewhat earlier. I
> had two switches that had loose rivets, so I'm wondering if there was
> a QC problem with the Carling switches made about that time. It would
> be interesting to see the date codes on the failed switches.
>
> My failed switch says C0344 Mexico. My guess was this is a date code
> (44th week in 2003?). The one Bob analysed says 9936 Mexico on it.
>
> Vern
>
--
N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com
3.8 Hours Total Time and holding
Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/cables/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
>
>Hi Vern,
>
>Check the crimps on your faston connectors. If the crimps are getting
>hot they could be conducting heat into the switch tabs. The simplest
>way to check would be to make a male faston jumper and replace one of
>the switches that is getting hot, then turn on the master.
>
>It might be a bad batch of switches, but it would be worth checking the
>crimps before pulling all of them out.
>
>Bob W.
An excellent suggestion for covering all the bases!
Carling has been in this business for a very long time
and their total output of switches is probably 1000+ times
greater than what goes into airplanes. I can see
the occasional 'batch' problems with process but
Vern's experience is mystifying.
The simple-ideas of physics that drive conditions
he's observed are solid and irrefutable. We just need
to carefully sift the sand. If anyone else has a
suggestion for the pursuit of knowledge, it's time
to bring it up.
Vern, what fast-on terminals did you use and which
tool was used to apply them? Save all the pieces
and parts that are replaced. They can yield important
information in the 'autopsy'.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
>
>
>I will check this for sure, but the evidence is contrary. If it was the
>crimps that were the source, they should all be discolored. In addition, I
>felt the terminals when operating to see if they were loose. They were not,
>and they were not as hot as the switch.
>
>I pulled apart one of the failed switches (from one of the two that failed
>in 2006) and it was damaged, similar to Bob's failure analysis on his
>website.
>
>The terminals are the Avikrimp type and attached using a proper ratcheting
>crimp tool.
>
>I've ordered a batch of Honeywell Micro Switch switches as replacements. I
>will pull all of the offending Carling switches and redo the burnt fastons
>on the Strobe supply switch (for the second time). I will probably
>sacrifice another one of the Carling switches to failure analysis gods to
>see if the internals are fried like the first one.
>
>Fortunately, the switches run in a row along the bottom of my panel and are
>easy to replace. See
>http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/115_1542_1.jpg. It
>should only take me an hour to do the major offenders and get back in the
>air. Right now, I've grounded my a/c due to this problem.
>
>Stay tuned.
Sounds like a plan.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vernon Little" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
OK, here's the first data from my switch failure:
- The following is a drawing of my landing/taxi/wig-wag circuit. Please
note that the Strobe circuit is straightforward, with a 3-1 switch connected
to the main bus. All four of these switches are getting hot: TAXI,
LANDING, FLASH and STROBE.
http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/wigwag.jpg
- The following are similar photos of the failed switches, in-situ. Left to
right: FLASH switch (hot), STROBE switch (burned fast-ons), NAV switch (no
problems to date)
http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/IMG_0936_1.JPG
http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/IMG_0935_2.JPG
The only discernable problem from these photos is the burned fast-ons, but
the switch was dangerously hot to touch in operation. The FLASH switch
(just visable on the left) gets hot (but not as hot) as well, but no burned
terminals.
My order for new switches arives today (gotta love Digikey in Canada:
ordered at 4:45 pm yesterday, will have them here by noon today... For $8.00
shipping). I will pull & replace the old switches, and replace the burned
fast-ons. I'll keep them for F/A.
All of my terminals were purchased either from Steinair or Digikey-- all are
Molex Avikrimp: http://www.molex.com/pdm_docs/sd/190020002_sd.pdf
The crimper was also purchased from Steinair and is similar to:
http://www.steinair.com/images/store/panels/sat001.jpg or
http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?account=X358218;sear
ch=RCT-1;search=PIDG%20Style%20Crimp%20Tool;limit=product;v=2.0
Stay tuned, I will post more of my findings as I rework my a/c.
Vern
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: September 11, 2008 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE***
-->
>
>Hi Vern,
>
>Check the crimps on your faston connectors. If the crimps are getting
>hot they could be conducting heat into the switch tabs. The simplest
>way to check would be to make a male faston jumper and replace one of
>the switches that is getting hot, then turn on the master.
>
>It might be a bad batch of switches, but it would be worth checking the
>crimps before pulling all of them out.
>
>Bob W.
An excellent suggestion for covering all the bases!
Carling has been in this business for a very long time
and their total output of switches is probably 1000+ times
greater than what goes into airplanes. I can see
the occasional 'batch' problems with process but
Vern's experience is mystifying.
The simple-ideas of physics that drive conditions
he's observed are solid and irrefutable. We just need
to carefully sift the sand. If anyone else has a
suggestion for the pursuit of knowledge, it's time
to bring it up.
Vern, what fast-on terminals did you use and which
tool was used to apply them? Save all the pieces
and parts that are replaced. They can yield important
information in the 'autopsy'.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson(at)pobox.com> |
| Subject: | Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
Hi Vernon,
I noticed something odd in
http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/IMG_0935_2.JPG
It's kinda hard to see the fast-on in the background, so I'm not sure.
Are both fast-on's discolored or just the one in the foreground? Also,
there appears to be some discoloration of the wire itself for the fast-on
in the background. Is this just a shadow?
The fast-on tabs and their associated rivets don't appear to be
discolored.
Just going on the pictures, seems to me that the crimp just is not up to
the task. I'll be interested in hearing what Bob sees.
Thanks for sharing,
/\/elson
~~ Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any spring. ~~
On Thu, 11 Sep 2008, Vernon Little wrote:
>
> OK, here's the first data from my switch failure:
>
> - The following is a drawing of my landing/taxi/wig-wag circuit. Please
> note that the Strobe circuit is straightforward, with a 3-1 switch connected
> to the main bus. All four of these switches are getting hot: TAXI,
> LANDING, FLASH and STROBE.
> http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/wigwag.jpg
>
> - The following are similar photos of the failed switches, in-situ. Left to
> right: FLASH switch (hot), STROBE switch (burned fast-ons), NAV switch (no
> problems to date)
>
> http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/IMG_0936_1.JPG
>
> The only discernable problem from these photos is the burned fast-ons, but
> the switch was dangerously hot to touch in operation. The FLASH switch
> (just visable on the left) gets hot (but not as hot) as well, but no burned
> terminals.
>
> My order for new switches arives today (gotta love Digikey in Canada:
> ordered at 4:45 pm yesterday, will have them here by noon today... For $8.00
> shipping). I will pull & replace the old switches, and replace the burned
> fast-ons. I'll keep them for F/A.
>
> All of my terminals were purchased either from Steinair or Digikey-- all are
> Molex Avikrimp: http://www.molex.com/pdm_docs/sd/190020002_sd.pdf
> The crimper was also purchased from Steinair and is similar to:
> http://www.steinair.com/images/store/panels/sat001.jpg or
> http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?account=X358218;sear
> ch=RCT-1;search=PIDG%20Style%20Crimp%20Tool;limit=product;v=2.0
>
> Stay tuned, I will post more of my findings as I rework my a/c.
>
> Vern
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
> Nuckolls, III
> Sent: September 11, 2008 6:16 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE***
>
>
> -->
>
>>
>> Hi Vern,
>>
>> Check the crimps on your faston connectors. If the crimps are getting
>> hot they could be conducting heat into the switch tabs. The simplest
>> way to check would be to make a male faston jumper and replace one of
>> the switches that is getting hot, then turn on the master.
>>
>> It might be a bad batch of switches, but it would be worth checking the
>> crimps before pulling all of them out.
>>
>> Bob W.
>
> An excellent suggestion for covering all the bases!
> Carling has been in this business for a very long time
> and their total output of switches is probably 1000+ times
> greater than what goes into airplanes. I can see
> the occasional 'batch' problems with process but
> Vern's experience is mystifying.
>
> The simple-ideas of physics that drive conditions
> he's observed are solid and irrefutable. We just need
> to carefully sift the sand. If anyone else has a
> suggestion for the pursuit of knowledge, it's time
> to bring it up.
>
> Vern, what fast-on terminals did you use and which
> tool was used to apply them? Save all the pieces
> and parts that are replaced. They can yield important
> information in the 'autopsy'.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rocket2man <rocket2man(at)isp.com> |
| Subject: | B+C Alternator problem |
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: B+C alternator problem
> >
> > Call B&C at 316-283-8000 and see if they're interested
> > in updating your LR-3 with respect to noise immunity.
> > If push comes to shove, I can modify it for you but
> > let's see what they say first.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> >Bob -
> >Talked to Bill at B+C this afternoon and he wasn't too convinced the
LR-3B
> >needed much of an upgrade. He says there is a LR-3C being built now
and I
> >get the idea it has some transient type improvements built in. His
> >suggestion was to monitor the low voltage light to see under which
> >conditions it comes on. I don't think I can get it to trip when I
> >want. I am suspecting it might not be a consistent cause i.e. the
dreaded
> >intermittent type of thing. But, I now know enough about the
location of
> >components in my particular system to troubleshoot if I knew where to
> >start. The only thing I have done is put a 20 amp fuse in the field
> >location. I haven't flown it yet this way. JBB
This tends to confirm my suspicion that B&C has
probably not replaced departed technical staff that
used to support this and other products . . .
It's true that the "C" version was crafted to offset the
effects of an extra-ordinary (outside the Mil-Std-704
envelope) noise situation on the G36 Bonanza. It's
also true that your particular installation may be
generating some un-anticipated stress that upsets
the ov protection.
I should point out here . . . AGAIN . . . that this
situation is not unique to the so-called "crowbar"
shutdown philosophy. It's a situation driven by the
dynamics of circuitry that watches for an ov condition
and makes a Let-Run/Shut-Down decision. It's a system
design and integration problem that must be solved
irrespective of the designer's choice for shut-down
philosophy. I.e, anyone's OV protection scheme can
be similarly "spoofed" into an unnecessary shutdown
event.
My sense is that B&C is hopeful of keeping this prolem
out of their shops . . . so let's do this.
The upstream field supply protection should be a 5A
breaker. If there's a "fusible" function upstream
of the breaker, make it a 24AWG fusible link. Let's
get the unit-fuse out of the system. The breaker
should be mounted within reach of the pilot.
Let's do some flying and see if you can identify
the antagonist condition. By the way, I'm assuming
you DO have a single point ground behind the panel
for all the electro-whizzies? Let's conduct some
experiments to see if the noise source can
be deduced.
If push comes to shove, you can mail me your regulator
and I'll modify it here. I think I recall all the things
we did to them . . . but it's been 7-10 years ago.
Bob . . .
Bob -
Back in town. I will replace the 15 amp fuse with a 5 amp C/B
accessible to the pilot.
I am also making a detailed digram of the wiring to make sure there
aren't any rogue units in there somewhere. I am not sure if there is
any other fusible link in the wiring path but the B+C LR-3B is
accessible for wire tracing so I will make sure what's there.
I'll fly the airplane as you suggested and see if I can make it trip the
C/B.
JBB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
I noticed the same thing. Have you ever done a pull test with some of
the terminals crimped with this tool? The depth of the crimp looks
somewhat shallow compared to the ones on my plane, but it could be an
illusion from the photo or maybe the plastic could have "relaxed" due to
the heat.
Dick Tasker
David E. Nelson wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Vernon,
>
> I noticed something odd in
>
> http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/IMG_0935_2.JPG
>
> It's kinda hard to see the fast-on in the background, so I'm not sure.
> Are both fast-on's discolored or just the one in the foreground?
> Also, there appears to be some discoloration of the wire itself for
> the fast-on in the background. Is this just a shadow?
>
> The fast-on tabs and their associated rivets don't appear to be
> discolored.
>
> Just going on the pictures, seems to me that the crimp just is not up
> to the task. I'll be interested in hearing what Bob sees.
>
> Thanks for sharing,
>
> /\/elson
>
>
> ~~ Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any
> spring. ~~
>
> On Thu, 11 Sep 2008, Vernon Little wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> OK, here's the first data from my switch failure:
>>
>> - The following is a drawing of my landing/taxi/wig-wag circuit. Please
>> note that the Strobe circuit is straightforward, with a 3-1 switch
>> connected
>> to the main bus. All four of these switches are getting hot: TAXI,
>> LANDING, FLASH and STROBE.
>> http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/wigwag.jpg
>>
>> - The following are similar photos of the failed switches, in-situ.
>> Left to
>> right: FLASH switch (hot), STROBE switch (burned fast-ons), NAV
>> switch (no
>> problems to date)
>>
>> http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/IMG_0936_1.JPG
>>
>> The only discernable problem from these photos is the burned
>> fast-ons, but
>> the switch was dangerously hot to touch in operation. The FLASH switch
>> (just visable on the left) gets hot (but not as hot) as well, but no
>> burned
>> terminals.
>>
>> My order for new switches arives today (gotta love Digikey in Canada:
>> ordered at 4:45 pm yesterday, will have them here by noon today...
>> For $8.00
>> shipping). I will pull & replace the old switches, and replace the
>> burned
>> fast-ons. I'll keep them for F/A.
>>
>> All of my terminals were purchased either from Steinair or Digikey--
>> all are
>> Molex Avikrimp: http://www.molex.com/pdm_docs/sd/190020002_sd.pdf
>> The crimper was also purchased from Steinair and is similar to:
>> http://www.steinair.com/images/store/panels/sat001.jpg or
>> http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?account=X358218;sear
>>
>> ch=RCT-1;search=PIDG%20Style%20Crimp%20Tool;limit=product;v=2.0
>>
>> Stay tuned, I will post more of my findings as I rework my a/c.
>>
>> Vern
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>> Robert L.
>> Nuckolls, III
>> Sent: September 11, 2008 6:16 AM
>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE***
>>
>>
>>
>> -->
>>
>>>
>>> Hi Vern,
>>>
>>> Check the crimps on your faston connectors. If the crimps are getting
>>> hot they could be conducting heat into the switch tabs. The simplest
>>> way to check would be to make a male faston jumper and replace one of
>>> the switches that is getting hot, then turn on the master.
>>>
>>> It might be a bad batch of switches, but it would be worth checking the
>>> crimps before pulling all of them out.
>>>
>>> Bob W.
>>
>> An excellent suggestion for covering all the bases!
>> Carling has been in this business for a very long time
>> and their total output of switches is probably 1000+ times
>> greater than what goes into airplanes. I can see
>> the occasional 'batch' problems with process but
>> Vern's experience is mystifying.
>>
>> The simple-ideas of physics that drive conditions
>> he's observed are solid and irrefutable. We just need
>> to carefully sift the sand. If anyone else has a
>> suggestion for the pursuit of knowledge, it's time
>> to bring it up.
>>
>> Vern, what fast-on terminals did you use and which
>> tool was used to apply them? Save all the pieces
>> and parts that are replaced. They can yield important
>> information in the 'autopsy'.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vernon Little" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
Hi Nelson. Both tabs are discolored, although the one in the foreground is
worse. There is some discoloration on the wire you mentioned. I think that
this is from the adhesive residue of the wire label that dried up and fell
off due to the heat. I will inspect more closely when I replace the
switches.
As for the crimp, I'll save the tab and stub wire for F/A.
You are right about the tabs and rivets, although the first failure I had in
2006 had discoloration. The 2006 failure also had a tripping CB, so it may
have been a failure similar to the one Bob documented on his web site.
The new Micro Switch switches arrived at 9:45 this AM (17 hour delivery from
Digikey!)have a slightly higher rating (20A/125V vs 15A/125V) and the
construction seems to be more refined, with solid rivets vs hollow rivets
and a closer tolerance on the moulding to prevent the tabs from rotating. I
don't have any knowledge of the internal construction, though. They are a
lot more expensive, so hopefully price and quality are positively
correlated.
Vern
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David E.
Nelson
Sent: September 11, 2008 10:02 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE***
-->
Hi Vernon,
I noticed something odd in
http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/IMG_0935_2.JPG
It's kinda hard to see the fast-on in the background, so I'm not sure.
Are both fast-on's discolored or just the one in the foreground? Also,
there appears to be some discoloration of the wire itself for the fast-on
in the background. Is this just a shadow?
The fast-on tabs and their associated rivets don't appear to be
discolored.
Just going on the pictures, seems to me that the crimp just is not up to
the task. I'll be interested in hearing what Bob sees.
Thanks for sharing,
/\/elson
~~ Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any spring.
~~
On Thu, 11 Sep 2008, Vernon Little wrote:
> -->
>
> OK, here's the first data from my switch failure:
>
> - The following is a drawing of my landing/taxi/wig-wag circuit.
> Please note that the Strobe circuit is straightforward, with a 3-1
> switch connected to the main bus. All four of these switches are
> getting hot: TAXI, LANDING, FLASH and STROBE.
> http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/wigwag.jpg
>
> - The following are similar photos of the failed switches, in-situ.
> Left to
> right: FLASH switch (hot), STROBE switch (burned fast-ons), NAV switch
(no
> problems to date)
>
> http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/IMG_0936_1.JPG
>
> The only discernable problem from these photos is the burned fast-ons,
> but the switch was dangerously hot to touch in operation. The FLASH
> switch (just visable on the left) gets hot (but not as hot) as well,
> but no burned terminals.
>
> My order for new switches arives today (gotta love Digikey in Canada:
> ordered at 4:45 pm yesterday, will have them here by noon today... For
$8.00
> shipping). I will pull & replace the old switches, and replace the
burned
> fast-ons. I'll keep them for F/A.
>
> All of my terminals were purchased either from Steinair or Digikey--
> all are Molex Avikrimp:
> http://www.molex.com/pdm_docs/sd/190020002_sd.pdf
> The crimper was also purchased from Steinair and is similar to:
> http://www.steinair.com/images/store/panels/sat001.jpg or
>
http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?account=X358218;sear
> ch=RCT-1;search=PIDG%20Style%20Crimp%20Tool;limit=product;v=2.0
>
> Stay tuned, I will post more of my findings as I rework my a/c.
>
> Vern
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> Sent: September 11, 2008 6:16 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE***
>
>
> -->
>
>> --> <bob@bob-white.com>
>>
>> Hi Vern,
>>
>> Check the crimps on your faston connectors. If the crimps are
>> getting hot they could be conducting heat into the switch tabs. The
>> simplest way to check would be to make a male faston jumper and
>> replace one of the switches that is getting hot, then turn on the
>> master.
>>
>> It might be a bad batch of switches, but it would be worth checking
>> the crimps before pulling all of them out.
>>
>> Bob W.
>
> An excellent suggestion for covering all the bases!
> Carling has been in this business for a very long time
> and their total output of switches is probably 1000+ times
> greater than what goes into airplanes. I can see
> the occasional 'batch' problems with process but
> Vern's experience is mystifying.
>
> The simple-ideas of physics that drive conditions
> he's observed are solid and irrefutable. We just need
> to carefully sift the sand. If anyone else has a
> suggestion for the pursuit of knowledge, it's time
> to bring it up.
>
> Vern, what fast-on terminals did you use and which
> tool was used to apply them? Save all the pieces
> and parts that are replaced. They can yield important
> information in the 'autopsy'.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vernon Little" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
Hi Dick. I do a pull test on every crimp, although this is not a direct
measurement of termination resistance.
One thing for sure, it's readily apparent why we don't use PVC insulated
terminals... They insulation would have melted.
As for the depth of the crimp, it's tough to tell how the metal ferrule has
crimped by looking through the insulation. The insulation is very tough and
tends to relax a bit after crimping.
I hope to get to the hangar today, so I'll provide an update later tonight
or tomorrow.
Vern
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Tasker
Sent: September 11, 2008 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE***
-->
I noticed the same thing. Have you ever done a pull test with some of
the terminals crimped with this tool? The depth of the crimp looks
somewhat shallow compared to the ones on my plane, but it could be an
illusion from the photo or maybe the plastic could have "relaxed" due to
the heat.
Dick Tasker
David E. Nelson wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Vernon,
>
> I noticed something odd in
>
> http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/IMG_0935_2.JPG
>
> It's kinda hard to see the fast-on in the background, so I'm not sure.
> Are both fast-on's discolored or just the one in the foreground?
> Also, there appears to be some discoloration of the wire itself for
> the fast-on in the background. Is this just a shadow?
>
> The fast-on tabs and their associated rivets don't appear to be
> discolored.
>
> Just going on the pictures, seems to me that the crimp just is not up
> to the task. I'll be interested in hearing what Bob sees.
>
> Thanks for sharing,
>
> /\/elson
>
>
> ~~ Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any
> spring. ~~
>
> On Thu, 11 Sep 2008, Vernon Little wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> OK, here's the first data from my switch failure:
>>
>> - The following is a drawing of my landing/taxi/wig-wag circuit.
>> Please note that the Strobe circuit is straightforward, with a 3-1
>> switch connected to the main bus. All four of these switches are
>> getting hot: TAXI, LANDING, FLASH and STROBE.
>> http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/wigwag.jpg
>>
>> - The following are similar photos of the failed switches, in-situ.
>> Left to
>> right: FLASH switch (hot), STROBE switch (burned fast-ons), NAV
>> switch (no
>> problems to date)
>>
>> http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/IMG_0936_1.JPG
>>
>> The only discernable problem from these photos is the burned
>> fast-ons, but
>> the switch was dangerously hot to touch in operation. The FLASH switch
>> (just visable on the left) gets hot (but not as hot) as well, but no
>> burned
>> terminals.
>>
>> My order for new switches arives today (gotta love Digikey in Canada:
>> ordered at 4:45 pm yesterday, will have them here by noon today...
>> For $8.00
>> shipping). I will pull & replace the old switches, and replace the
>> burned
>> fast-ons. I'll keep them for F/A.
>>
>> All of my terminals were purchased either from Steinair or Digikey--
>> all are
>> Molex Avikrimp: http://www.molex.com/pdm_docs/sd/190020002_sd.pdf
>> The crimper was also purchased from Steinair and is similar to:
>> http://www.steinair.com/images/store/panels/sat001.jpg or
>>
http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?account=X358218;sear
>>
>> ch=RCT-1;search=PIDG%20Style%20Crimp%20Tool;limit=product;v=2.0
>>
>> Stay tuned, I will post more of my findings as I rework my a/c.
>>
>> Vern
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>> Robert L.
>> Nuckolls, III
>> Sent: September 11, 2008 6:16 AM
>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE***
>>
>>
>>
>> -->
>>
>>> --> <bob@bob-white.com>
>>>
>>> Hi Vern,
>>>
>>> Check the crimps on your faston connectors. If the crimps are
>>> getting hot they could be conducting heat into the switch tabs. The
>>> simplest way to check would be to make a male faston jumper and
>>> replace one of the switches that is getting hot, then turn on the
>>> master.
>>>
>>> It might be a bad batch of switches, but it would be worth checking
>>> the crimps before pulling all of them out.
>>>
>>> Bob W.
>>
>> An excellent suggestion for covering all the bases!
>> Carling has been in this business for a very long time
>> and their total output of switches is probably 1000+ times
>> greater than what goes into airplanes. I can see
>> the occasional 'batch' problems with process but
>> Vern's experience is mystifying.
>>
>> The simple-ideas of physics that drive conditions
>> he's observed are solid and irrefutable. We just need
>> to carefully sift the sand. If anyone else has a
>> suggestion for the pursuit of knowledge, it's time
>> to bring it up.
>>
>> Vern, what fast-on terminals did you use and which
>> tool was used to apply them? Save all the pieces
>> and parts that are replaced. They can yield important
>> information in the 'autopsy'.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
The photo at:
http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/IMG_0935_2.JPG
shows very localized discoloration of the terminal
insulator. There's a large temperature gradient when
you consider heat flow path from a high-resistance
contact within the switch out through riveted joint,
terminal tab, fast-on socket and to the plastic insulator.
I'm not seeing any signs of heating of the switch-tab
or the fast-on socket. The fact you ARE seeing so much
effects of heating due to poor contact in so many places
places the application tool in question. See the wire-
grip photos at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html
This is a critical issue for mating tools-to-terminals-to-wire.
If you would care to send me some exemplar terminals installed
on wires, I'd be pleased to get a look at the microscopic details
of the wire grip.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vernon Little" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
Hi Bob. Thanks for your comments. See my reply, plus my new findings of
today:
>
> The photo at:
>
> http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/IMG_0935_2.JPG
>
> shows very localized discoloration of the terminal
> insulator. There's a large temperature gradient when
> you consider heat flow path from a high-resistance
> contact within the switch out through riveted joint,
> terminal tab, fast-on socket and to the plastic insulator.
>
> I'm not seeing any signs of heating of the switch-tab
> or the fast-on socket. The fact you ARE seeing so much
> effects of heating due to poor contact in so many places
> places the application tool in question. See the wire-
> grip photos at:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html
>
> This is a critical issue for mating tools-to-terminals-to-wire.
>
> If you would care to send me some exemplar terminals installed
> on wires, I'd be pleased to get a look at the microscopic details
> of the wire grip.
>
> Bob . . .
>
After removing all of my SPDT switches and replacing them, I did, indeed
find some discoloration of two terminals on the Strobe switch. Since the
Landing light was getting a bit warm as well, I looked at it-- no
discoloration. I opened up the switches and looked at the rocker bars, see
photo: http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/IMG_0955_1.JPG
and http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/IMG_0956_2.JPG.
In both cases, the landing light rocker is on the left, and the strobe
rocker on the right. It's not apparent from the photos, but the strobe
rocker has discolored. The second photo shows that the lubricating grease
has carbonized due to internal heating. Also, the center rivet on the
switch was very loose, leading to a significant voltage drop across the
switch of 2 volts when measure in-situ with strobes operating (and it got
very hot!).
Both rockers were relatively flat, with only slight curls to them.
So it's safe to conclude that both the strobe switch and the related
fast-ons have heat damage. The landing light switch was in much better
condition, with no fast-on discoloration or obvious internal problems.
What is causing these recurrent problems? One theory is bad crimps, the
other is bad switches. Maybe one is causing the other. If a crimp is
faulty, and causes heating of the terminal, perhaps this triggers problems
in the switches, which then heat up as well. Or maybe it's the other way
around. To test this theory, I replaced the strobe switch and left the
discolored fast-ons in place: No problem, switch and terminals remained
cool, and voltage drop across the switch was unmeasurable. Seems to
indicate a switch problem, but not conclusive. I later cut off the
discolored fast-ons and I'l be mailing them to Bob along with some test
crimps from my crimper.
BTW, I tested all of the replacement switches in my A/C. No heat problems
to report. Time will tell, of course.
I'd sure like to hear from others-- run out and feel your switches and
terminals and let us know the results. If I am the only one with these
problems, then I need to dig deeper.
Vern
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Why has the problem only happened with toggles as opposed to rockers?
Obviously the switch is the problem. Has ANYONE called Carling Switch and bitched??
Why not? What do they say? Despite what Bob says, 115 VAC switches should
never be used for LV DC high-current applications. Do what the manufacturer suggests.
That's what's printed on the side of the switch Bubela. Otherwise you're
on your own.
Bob--"Gas-Tight" Can you even SHOW me a "Gas-Tight" Faston connection? This silly
regression to concern about gas-tight Fastons is wildly delusional. In my previous
life we used Fastons for decades at 25 Amps DC with short excursions to
300 Amps with nary a failure. A hundred different people did the installation.
The choice of tools by the manufacturing department never became so ANAL.
I supply 50A Fastons with my high-current SSRs and I don't lose a wink of sleep.
The terminals don't get as warm as a kitten's belly.
"Everything you've learned in school as 'obvious' becomes less and less obvious
as you begin to study the universe. For example, there are no solids in the universe.
There's not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute continuums.
There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines."
-R. Buckminster Fuller
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3943#203943
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeff Page" <jpx(at)Qenesis.com> |
| Subject: | Instrument lights always on |
I was helping a friend with his RV6A, which he purchased but didn't build.
Oddly (to me anyway), the instrument lights were wired so that they
are always on in flight. Turn on the Nav lights and the dimmer
circuit kicks in, but with the Nav lights off, they are all full
bright. Other than turning off the master switch, there is no way to
turn them off.
Is there any advantage to doing this ? I can think of a number of
disadvantages. Perhaps this is just a wiring mistake.
Jeff Page
Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sam Hoskins" <sam.hoskins(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
Eric, this is a new and interesting topic. No need to come in swinging,
let's just be polite and look at the science.
Sam Hoskins
www.samhoskins.blogspot.com
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 8:03 AM, Eric M. Jones wrote:
> emjones(at)charter.net>
>
> Why has the problem only happened with toggles as opposed to rockers?
>
> Obviously the switch is the problem. Has ANYONE called Carling Switch and
> bitched?? Why not? What do they say? Despite what Bob says, 115 VAC switches
> should never be used for LV DC high-current applications. Do what the
> manufacturer suggests. That's what's printed on the side of the switch
> Bubela. Otherwise you're on your own.
>
> Bob--"Gas-Tight" Can you even SHOW me a "Gas-Tight" Faston connection? This
> silly regression to concern about gas-tight Fastons is wildly delusional. In
> my previous life we used Fastons for decades at 25 Amps DC with short
> excursions to 300 Amps with nary a failure. A hundred different people did
> the installation. The choice of tools by the manufacturing department never
> became so ANAL.
>
> I supply 50A Fastons with my high-current SSRs and I don't lose a wink of
> sleep. The terminals don't get as warm as a kitten's belly.
>
> "Everything you've learned in school as 'obvious' becomes less and less
> obvious as you begin to study the universe. For example, there are no solids
> in the universe. There's not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no
> absolute continuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines."
>
> -R. Buckminster Fuller
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones(at)charter.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3943#203943
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Instrument lights always on |
Jeff,
I have a couple of lights on my panel (to illuminate my N-Number - and serve as
a Master-ON indicator) that I wired this way intentionally - it took some diodes
and connectors to ensure that the rest of the lights weren't backfed.
The only advantage that I could see is telling you that the master is on - at night.
It may be a mistake - but it took some doing to make it work that way.....
JMHO,
Ralph
-----Original Message-----
>From: Jeff Page <jpx(at)Qenesis.com>
>Sent: Sep 12, 2008 10:12 AM
>To: AeroElectric List
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Instrument lights always on
>
>
>I was helping a friend with his RV6A, which he purchased but didn't build.
>Oddly (to me anyway), the instrument lights were wired so that they
>are always on in flight. Turn on the Nav lights and the dimmer
>circuit kicks in, but with the Nav lights off, they are all full
>bright. Other than turning off the master switch, there is no way to
>turn them off.
>
>Is there any advantage to doing this ? I can think of a number of
>disadvantages. Perhaps this is just a wiring mistake.
>
>Jeff Page
>Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vernon Little" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
Hi Eric.
When I had my first switch failure (Master Switch) in 2006, I returned it to
my supplier (well know aviation electrics company), requesting F/A. I heard
nothing. Being a practical person, I thought that it was an outlier,
purchased a new one and moved on.
The subsequent failure of the Strobe switch a couple of years ago got me a
lot more concerned, but the recent failures now have me ripping out the
Carling switches and replacing with another brand. I have no definitive
evidence that all Carling switches are bad, just my experiences on my
airframe.
The correct course of action is for my supplier to work with Carling on
this. Tried that, no result. I have no economic skin in this game, but my
supplier does. I just want to solve my problem and warn others by sharing
my results. If others are having similar problems, then it can be
determined that my problems are not unique.
One thing that is definitive: all of the failing switches have loose
rivets. I don't think they started that way, so it may be an effect of
overheating, not the cause. Nevertheless, I can envision a thermal runaway
situation as a rivet gets resistive.
I'm sending some stuff to Bob for his investigation, so he can be the
repository of information on this issue.
Vern
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Eric M. Jones
> Sent: September 12, 2008 6:04 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE***
>
>
>
> -->
>
> Why has the problem only happened with toggles as opposed to rockers?
>
> Obviously the switch is the problem. Has ANYONE called
> Carling Switch and bitched?? Why not? What do they say?
> Despite what Bob says, 115 VAC switches should never be used
> for LV DC high-current applications. Do what the manufacturer
> suggests. That's what's printed on the side of the switch
> Bubela. Otherwise you're on your own.
>
> Bob--"Gas-Tight" Can you even SHOW me a "Gas-Tight" Faston
> connection? This silly regression to concern about gas-tight
> Fastons is wildly delusional. In my previous life we used
> Fastons for decades at 25 Amps DC with short excursions to
> 300 Amps with nary a failure. A hundred different people did
> the installation. The choice of tools by the manufacturing
> department never became so ANAL.
>
> I supply 50A Fastons with my high-current SSRs and I don't
> lose a wink of sleep. The terminals don't get as warm as a
> kitten's belly.
>
> "Everything you've learned in school as 'obvious' becomes
> less and less obvious as you begin to study the universe. For
> example, there are no solids in the universe. There's not
> even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute
> continuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines."
>
> -R. Buckminster Fuller
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones(at)charter.net
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3943#203943
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 605 TES/TBM" <Neal.George(at)hurlburt.af.mil> |
Well...the first one that we thought was available has been turned in to the black
hole that is DRMO. Shoot.
But... one of my test buddies may just order a 2012. I sure would like to find
one that's been orphaned or replaced by something sexier.
Still working it. I cut a length of Whelen cable to match the #22 that you sent
and put Molex ends on both. I also pulled the FlashMeter IV out of the bag
found the 4LR44 batteries gone. Can't seem to remember to go looking for replacements
when I'm in a store...
My Astron 35M is still buried among the stuff I didn't have room to unpack from
the last move. Unless you object, I'm planning to run the tests off of a fresh
garden tractor battery. The alternative is to jumper off my idling Cummins.
neal
Capt Neal George
605TES/TBM
Hurlburt Field, FL 32544
850-884-9121
DSN 579-9121
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 11:08 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem
>TES/TBM"
>
>
> Neal, are you following this thread?
>
>I'm trying. The water's deep and I'm short.
>
> Any chance you could get your hands on a 'scope with digital
>data recording features like a Tek TDS2012?
>
>Maybe. I'll ask around and see what I can find.
Thanks!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vernon Little" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
...
> Despite what Bob says, 115 VAC switches should never be used
> for LV DC high-current applications. Do what the manufacturer
> suggests. That's what's printed on the side of the switch
> Bubela. Otherwise you're on your own.
>
...
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
...
Hi again Eric. Just to comment on what you said:
"DC Rule of Thumb
For those switches that list an AC voltage rating only, the "DC Rule of
Thumb" can be applied for determining the switch's maximum DC current
rating. This "rule" states the highest amperage on the switch should perform
satisfactorily up to 30 volts DC. For example, a switch which is rated at
10A 250VAC; 15A 125VAC; 3/4HP 125-250VAC, will be likely to perform
satisfactorily at 15 amps up to 30 volts DC (VDC)"
http://www.carlingtech.com/products/switches/learn_more.asp?page=switches_am
p-rating
Therefore, all of my Carling switches are being used according to the
manufacturers recommendations. The only gotcha is that the switches are not
rated for operating below 0 degrees C. This is probably because the
switches are not sealed from condensing moisture. This is not a problem
where I live.
Vern
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
Vern,
Very interesting problem and investigation. Thanks for sharing it with us.
I noticed that the fast-on is stamped 18-22 gauge and your wiring diagram
lists 14 gauge wire. Could that difference have caused a weak crimp?
Stan Sutterfield
What is causing these recurrent problems? One theory is bad crimps, the
other is bad switches. Maybe one is causing the other. If a crimp is
faulty, and causes heating of the terminal, perhaps this triggers problems
in the switches, which then heat up as well. Or maybe it's the other way
around.
**************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog,
plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
(http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vernon Little" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
The photo is of the strobe switch, the wiring diagram is of the
landing/taxi/wig-wag circuit. That's the confusion. The strobe uses 18
ga.
wiring. The "FLASH" switch is on the left in the photos, with the blue
terminals.
Good eyes!
August 27, 2008 - September 12, 2008
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ic