AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ij

January 02, 2009 - January 18, 2009



      
        --------------------------------snip------------------------------
      
      
          I can now comfortably suggest that failures we've
          seen (and perceived as a sudden up-tick in frequency)
          have been happening in these products for years. Further,
          the smoked switches were not a failure on the part of the
          manufacturer to meet electrical specifications nor
          upon users for failure to respect those ratings.
      
                 Bob . . .
      
                 ----------------------------------------)
                 ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )
                 ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
                 ( appearance of being right . . .       )
                 (                                       )
                 (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )
                 ----------------------------------------
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vern Little" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: GPS Serial Data to Garmin GTX-327 Transponder
Date: Jan 02, 2009
Hi Matt: I talked to Garmin about this a few years ago, and unless you are using a GNS430 family device or other Garmin IFR certified device, the 327 will ignore the GPS data. I spent a lot of time trying to get it to work, and no joy. Best to call Garmin on this. Vern ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle(at)matronics.com> Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 10:43 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: GPS Serial Data to Garmin GTX-327 Transponder > > > > > Listers, > > I've tried sending two different sources of NMEA 0183 data at > 4800/9600/19200/38400/57600 baud rates to my Garmin GTX-327 on both serial > input ports 1 (db25 Pin 2) and port 2 (db25 pin 19), and configured for > "GPS" input. But I don't get anything on the GTX-327 serial input test > display. I have been successful at getting AirData Z-format from the GRT > EFIS at 9600 baud into either of the GTX-327 serial ports, so the ports > are good. The NMEA 0183 data registers correctly on other devices reading > it so the GPS serial output seem fine. The GTX-327 just won't seem to see > the GPS data for some reason. > > Am I doing something wrong? Has anyone else tried this successfully? > > > Thanks! > > Matt Dralle > RV-8 #82880 N998RV > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 02, 2009
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Z-14 v Z-14Fadec question
Chris On my Z14 I have a two position crossfeed switch. In the normal OFF position the two systems run isolated from each other. That way a fault in one system can't affect the other. In the ON position the crossfeed contactor closes and parallels the batteries. I would only do that if one alternator went dead and I wished to continue flying for sometime or to get to a repair facility. In addition since I run very small batteries on my system, the crossfeed contactor is wired to close automatically any time I crank the engine to start it. Ken ej22 and dual EFI Christopher Barber wrote: > Last week I asked about C/B's tripping in the NON crossover mode and > received a thoughtful answer. Thanks. Due to my growing but limited > knowledge in this area it took a EE buddy of mine to figure out I had > the crossover switch wired in a "mirrored" manner on my switch. Now, no > more C/B tripping AND my alternators are charging properly. So, my > initial calculations seemed to be ok as to wires etc....just not > my translation as to switch connections. Ahhhhhh, non-the-less, it now > feels nice. > > Now, I have a general question regarding the Z-14 schemes. For the > crossover switch, up is to engage the starter with both batteries, > center is non-crossover, normal mode with batteries working to power > their bus independently and down is both batteries working together on > both busses......If I understand correctly. So, in the Z-14 Fadec > scheme, the start button engages the starter, then one position on the > switch is independent alt to each bus and the other switch to have the > systems work together? Or, is on position Off and the other switch > position engaging both alternators to work together? If it is the > second scenario, does that mean the two systems ALWAYS work together? > If so, is there any reason not to have both systems always working > together in the standard Z-14 scheme. I assume the FADEC label is since > it is always engaged there is no pilot intervention. Just looking for a > better understanding. Thanks. > > All the best, > > Chris Barber > Houston > Velocity SE with all electric Mazda 13b rotary ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Follow-up on Carling switch failures. . .
Date: Jan 02, 2009
Vern, When you say "Carling switches with loose rivets". How loose? Do you mean wobbly terminals? I've checked all mine and most of the terminals can pivot around the rivet until it hits a stop molded into the switch. I wonder if this is tight enough. I would expect them to be tighter. I have a couple Mil-spec switches and I don't think they pivot like this but will check again next time I'm at the shop. Maybe this pivoting action is what is not compatible with a high vibration environment. Bevan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vern Little Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 5:45 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Follow-up on Carling switch failures. . . Bob's working hypothesis is that vibration is loosening the rivets on the Carling switches. High current switches (strobe supplies, landing lights) then exhibit overtemperature, increased resistance and thermal runaway. Strobe supplies are probably the worst load in the aircraft because they are effectively constant-power devices: as the input voltage decreases, the current increases to compensate. This would be bad news if the switch is resistive. I've had two strobe switch failures, one landing light switch (actually a wig-wag) failure, and one master switch failure (loose rivet but no charred terminals). I have also received brand-new Carling switches with loose terminals. As an experiment, I replaced several Carling switches with Honeywell switches and have been running them, monitoring for failures. I proposed about 100 hours of testing before any conclusions could be made. This will probably take several more months. I have check them in the interim, with no problems. If the experiment shows failure of the Honeywell switches, then the problem may be attributed to my installation. If the experiment does not show failure of the Honeywell switches, then the problem may be attributed to the Carling switches sensitivity to vibration. Bob has concluded that the Carling switches are fine, but should have vibration decoupling loops to minimize vibration stresses on the terminals. Good advice no matter who's switches are installed. Unfortunately, I don't agree that the problem is that my (our) installations are incorrect. Rather, I believe that the problem is that the Carling switches are unusually sensitive to vibration. In my next project, I am planning to use different switches, plus decoupling loops. In addition, strobe and landing light loads will be isolated with automotive relays which are generally more robust. Vern Little ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Brame <mailto:chasb(at)satx.rr.com> Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 4:42 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Follow-up on Carling switch failures. . . Bob, While I can't disagree with your findings, if I remember the discussion correctly, most of the failed B&C S700 switches were on strobe systems. I think I kicked off the recent discussion with a failed switch on my strobe system. I have several other B&C S700 series switches, all are wired similar to the strobe switch, and none of them have failed or showed signs of heat stress. Why should the switches on a strobe system be more failure prone? Charlie Brame RV 6A N11CB San Antonio ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Follow-up on Carling switch failures . . . A few weeks ago a discussion here on the List explored a "rash" of failures in Carling switches sold by a number of sources including B&C as their S700 series devices. --------------------------------snip------------------------------ I can now comfortably suggest that failures we've seen (and perceived as a sudden up-tick in frequency) have been happening in these products for years. Further, the smoked switches were not a failure on the part of the manufacturer to meet electrical specifications nor upon users for failure to respect those ratings. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Using TurboCad
Date: Jan 02, 2009
To the Cad whizzes out there. I'm taking advantage of the bad weather and trying to "professionalize" my wiring diagrams using TurboCad. I'm starting to feel really old here cause I'm so frustrated with this TurboCad program. I really want to make it work and not get something else. I've imported a drawing from Bob's collection in DWG format. All I want to do is erase a few lines, re-draw them slightly elsewhere and copy a few fuses to add the extra circuits. Erase, copy, cut, paste, snap are eluding me even though there are a bazillion tools all around. Can I not just put a square around a section of the drawing, cut and paste etc? Jack Daniels is starting to tempt me! Bevan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 02, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Follow-up on Carling switch failures. . .
At 06:42 PM 1/2/2009, you wrote: >Bob, > >While I can't disagree with your findings, if I remember the >discussion correctly, most of the failed B&C S700 switches were on >strobe systems. I think I kicked off the recent discussion with a >failed switch on my strobe system. I have several other B&C S700 >series switches, all are wired similar to the strobe switch, and >none of them have failed or showed signs of heat stress. Why should >the switches on a strobe system be more failure prone? Certainly switches carrying higher currents are more likely to exhibit effects of heating as part of the trail of evidence. Loosening of joints increases resistance joint which means makes it get hotter. Heating piled on top of loosening will exacerbate the rate of failure . . . and cause more damage during the transition from satisfactory to unsatisfactory service. The effects of current is a squared function. For every doubling of current through a given value of resistance, power dissipated in that resistance goes up by a factor of 4. This means that the strobe switch with say 7A of current flowing through it is under 4x the stress of same switch having 3.5A of current. This stressing of rivets thing is not easy to predict based on similarity of wiring. Also, the hypothesis does not preclude quality assurance issues with switches (although the spectrum of reported failures spans years of date codes). When looking for a place to "hang the hat" we need to keep in mind that these switches and their close cousins have millions of service-hours dating back the time when fast-ons were incorporated into the Cessna single-engine product line . . . not to mention perhaps 100-1000 times that service record throughout the total customer base for these switches. Manufacturing errors do happen but they tend to be single lot issues that have a low probability of finding their way into our exceedingly low-volume market. This leaves us with considering mis-application of the devices (failure to observe limits/ratings) or errors of installation. Loose rivets a common to ALL the observed failures. Given that several failures occurred with no signs of heating, we're on pretty solid ground to suggest that loosening is the the first event in the failure chain followed by heating (where current levels and duty-cycle are sufficiently high to offer contributing stress). Gee, why didn't Carling warn us about this? Where's the prohibition for using rows of these switches in front of tightly bundled wires? We're less than 1% of their total market. Occurrence of failures we've seen is a tiny fraction of that market. It has probably never occurred to their tech writers that such a prohibition is necessary/ useful. It also occurs to me that the tabs could be subject to some side loads during installation of those really tight PIDG fast-on terminals! Now, we've been here before . . . thinking that we understood all of the simple-ideas that fit the observed facts. But until someone has new data and/or an alternative logic, that's my story and I'm sticking with it! Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 02, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Audio noise revisited
At 03:46 PM 1/2/2009, you wrote: >Ok, I sneaked out the 12V battery of my house alarm and did the test. >I powered the Intercom from that separate battery but the noises are >still there. I suppose, as you say, that a filter on the Intercom >power wire won't solve my problem. That would be my considered assessment. >Regarding the A/F Ratio Monitor, I am pretty sure it makes one of >the whines, so I have to put back the power filter that it used to >have (the filter has gone west some time ago, way before installing >the Intercom, and I took it away, to restore power to the Monitor, >not knowing about the noise it causes). I believe that will >eliminate that noise. Good experiment. Do one thing at a time so you don't hide the results of a non-useful action. > >The remaining problem now is coming from the COMM Radio. That other >whine comes on and off whenever I turn the radio on and off. I even >tried powering the radio from a separate battery and no joy. When are you hearing these noises. Is the engine running and all volume controls set for normal operation? >Should I put the filter on the Radio's power line? >What do you suggest? I can tell you that many a $14m airplane has some noises in the headphones when sitting on the ground, engines off and volume controls turned up. The significance for most if not all these "undesirables" goes away in flight. Are you certain that what you're hearing really NEEDS to be eliminated? Bob . . . Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vern Little" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: Follow-up on Carling switch failures. . .
Date: Jan 02, 2009
Hey Bevan. I would consider a terminal that easily pivots to be loose. It's certainly not gas-tight, and may exhibit troubles later on. In my opinion, I would watch these switches carefully, and don't put any more stress on the rivets (use a decoupling loop on the wire). I had an avtech recommend soldering the tabs to the rivets, but since I don't know what this does to the temper of the internals, I would not do it. Vern ----- Original Message ----- From: B Tomm To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 6:34 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Follow-up on Carling switch failures. . . Vern, When you say "Carling switches with loose rivets". How loose? Do you mean wobbly terminals? I've checked all mine and most of the terminals can pivot around the rivet until it hits a stop molded into the switch. I wonder if this is tight enough. I would expect them to be tighter. I have a couple Mil-spec switches and I don't think they pivot like this but will check again next time I'm at the shop. Maybe this pivoting action is what is not compatible with a high vibration environment. Bevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vern Little Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 5:45 PM To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Follow-up on Carling switch failures. . . Bob's working hypothesis is that vibration is loosening the rivets on the Carling switches. High current switches (strobe supplies, landing lights) then exhibit overtemperature, increased resistance and thermal runaway. Strobe supplies are probably the worst load in the aircraft because they are effectively constant-power devices: as the input voltage decreases, the current increases to compensate. This would be bad news if the switch is resistive. I've had two strobe switch failures, one landing light switch (actually a wig-wag) failure, and one master switch failure (loose rivet but no charred terminals). I have also received brand-new Carling switches with loose terminals. As an experiment, I replaced several Carling switches with Honeywell switches and have been running them, monitoring for failures. I proposed about 100 hours of testing before any conclusions could be made. This will probably take several more months. I have check them in the interim, with no problems. If the experiment shows failure of the Honeywell switches, then the problem may be attributed to my installation. If the experiment does not show failure of the Honeywell switches, then the problem may be attributed to the Carling switches sensitivity to vibration. Bob has concluded that the Carling switches are fine, but should have vibration decoupling loops to minimize vibration stresses on the terminals. Good advice no matter who's switches are installed. Unfortunately, I don't agree that the problem is that my (our) installations are incorrect. Rather, I believe that the problem is that the Carling switches are unusually sensitive to vibration. In my next project, I am planning to use different switches, plus decoupling loops. In addition, strobe and landing light loads will be isolated with automotive relays which are generally more robust. Vern Little ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Brame To: AeroElectric List Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 4:42 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Follow-up on Carling switch failures. . . Bob, While I can't disagree with your findings, if I remember the discussion correctly, most of the failed B&C S700 switches were on strobe systems. I think I kicked off the recent discussion with a failed switch on my strobe system. I have several other B&C S700 series switches, all are wired similar to the strobe switch, and none of them have failed or showed signs of heat stress. Why should the switches on a strobe system be more failure prone? Charlie Brame RV 6A N11CB San Antonio ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Follow-up on Carling switch failures . . . A few weeks ago a discussion here on the List explored a "rash" of failures in Carling switches sold by a number of sources including B&C as their S700 series devices. --------------------------------snip------------------------------ I can now comfortably suggest that failures we've seen (and perceived as a sudden up-tick in frequency) have been happening in these products for years. Further, the smoked switches were not a failure on the part of the manufacturer to meet electrical specifications nor upon users for failure to respect those ratings. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Follow-up on Carling switch failures. . .
Date: Jan 02, 2009
Yes, I am considering contacting the vendor to see if I can return them, and change to Milspec switches throughout. I don't really want them for a few bucks savings and if the vendor gets enough back, perhaps they will offer/recommend a better product. Bevan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vern Little Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 9:04 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Follow-up on Carling switch failures. . . Hey Bevan. I would consider a terminal that easily pivots to be loose. It's certainly not gas-tight, and may exhibit troubles later on. In my opinion, I would watch these switches carefully, and don't put any more stress on the rivets (use a decoupling loop on the wire). I had an avtech recommend soldering the tabs to the rivets, but since I don't know what this does to the temper of the internals, I would not do it. Vern ----- Original Message ----- From: B Tomm <mailto:fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net> Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 6:34 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Follow-up on Carling switch failures. . . Vern, When you say "Carling switches with loose rivets". How loose? Do you mean wobbly terminals? I've checked all mine and most of the terminals can pivot around the rivet until it hits a stop molded into the switch. I wonder if this is tight enough. I would expect them to be tighter. I have a couple Mil-spec switches and I don't think they pivot like this but will check again next time I'm at the shop. Maybe this pivoting action is what is not compatible with a high vibration environment. Bevan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vern Little Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 5:45 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Follow-up on Carling switch failures. . . Bob's working hypothesis is that vibration is loosening the rivets on the Carling switches. High current switches (strobe supplies, landing lights) then exhibit overtemperature, increased resistance and thermal runaway. Strobe supplies are probably the worst load in the aircraft because they are effectively constant-power devices: as the input voltage decreases, the current increases to compensate. This would be bad news if the switch is resistive. I've had two strobe switch failures, one landing light switch (actually a wig-wag) failure, and one master switch failure (loose rivet but no charred terminals). I have also received brand-new Carling switches with loose terminals. As an experiment, I replaced several Carling switches with Honeywell switches and have been running them, monitoring for failures. I proposed about 100 hours of testing before any conclusions could be made. This will probably take several more months. I have check them in the interim, with no problems. If the experiment shows failure of the Honeywell switches, then the problem may be attributed to my installation. If the experiment does not show failure of the Honeywell switches, then the problem may be attributed to the Carling switches sensitivity to vibration. Bob has concluded that the Carling switches are fine, but should have vibration decoupling loops to minimize vibration stresses on the terminals. Good advice no matter who's switches are installed. Unfortunately, I don't agree that the problem is that my (our) installations are incorrect. Rather, I believe that the problem is that the Carling switches are unusually sensitive to vibration. In my next project, I am planning to use different switches, plus decoupling loops. In addition, strobe and landing light loads will be isolated with automotive relays which are generally more robust. Vern Little ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Brame <mailto:chasb(at)satx.rr.com> Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 4:42 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Follow-up on Carling switch failures. . . Bob, While I can't disagree with your findings, if I remember the discussion correctly, most of the failed B&C S700 switches were on strobe systems. I think I kicked off the recent discussion with a failed switch on my strobe system. I have several other B&C S700 series switches, all are wired similar to the strobe switch, and none of them have failed or showed signs of heat stress. Why should the switches on a strobe system be more failure prone? Charlie Brame RV 6A N11CB San Antonio ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Follow-up on Carling switch failures . . . A few weeks ago a discussion here on the List explored a "rash" of failures in Carling switches sold by a number of sources including B&C as their S700 series devices. --------------------------------snip------------------------------ I can now comfortably suggest that failures we've seen (and perceived as a sudden up-tick in frequency) have been happening in these products for years. Further, the smoked switches were not a failure on the part of the manufacturer to meet electrical specifications nor upon users for failure to respect those ratings. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Follow-up on Carling switch failures. . .
At 08:34 PM 1/2/2009, you wrote: >Vern, > >When you say "Carling switches with loose rivets". How loose? Do >you mean wobbly terminals? > I've checked all mine and most of the terminals can pivot around > the rivet until it hits a stop molded into the switch. I wonder if > this is tight enough. I would expect them to be tighter. Interesting! The riveted-tabs are obviously not as rigid about the rivet axis. Some versions do drop the tab base into a "pocket" molded into the back of the housing. See: http://tinyurl.com/96yqmg I'm away from home for a week so I can't shuffle through all the switches in my shop. But even with the recesses shown, the tab isn't really "captured". > I have a couple Mil-spec switches and I don't think they pivot > like this but will check again next time I'm at the shop. Maybe > this pivoting action is what is not compatible with a high > vibration environment. I'm aware of no mil-qualified switches that do not feature terminals molded into the housing. Here's an exemplar design (Microswitch) . . . http://tinyurl.com/842eos > >I've had two strobe switch failures, one landing light switch >(actually a wig-wag) failure, and one master switch failure (loose >rivet but no charred terminals). I have also received brand-new >Carling switches with loose terminals. In retrospect, the only thing that resists rotation of the tabs on the rivets is friction between tab and housing established coefficient of friction between plastic/brass and force of the riveted joint. Obviously, there are limits to the force you can put on the plastic housing . . . > >As an experiment, I replaced several Carling switches with Honeywell >switches and have been running them, monitoring for failures. I >proposed about 100 hours of testing before any conclusions could be >made. This will probably take several more months. I have check >them in the interim, with no problems. > >If the experiment shows failure of the Honeywell switches, then the >problem may be attributed to my installation. >If the experiment does not show failure of the Honeywell switches, >then the problem may be attributed to the Carling switches >sensitivity to vibration. > . . . and I would expect no failures of these devices. They're exceedingly well designed and tested in environments our airplanes will never see. >Bob has concluded that the Carling switches are fine, but should >have vibration decoupling loops to minimize vibration stresses on >the terminals. Good advice no matter who's switches are >installed. Unfortunately, I don't agree that the problem is that my >(our) installations are incorrect. Rather, I believe that the >problem is that the Carling switches are unusually sensitive to vibration. Perhaps 'error' was the wrong term. Lack of understanding leads to lack of attention to the sensitivities you've cited . . . and without a doubt, tabs riveted to plastic housings have a weakness of design where vibration and temperature cycles are strong. > >In my next project, I am planning to use different switches, plus >decoupling loops. In addition, strobe and landing light loads will >be isolated with automotive relays which are generally more robust. It will be interesting to learn of your experience with this. Certainly addition of the relays will eliminate all potential for heating effects. It occurs to me that a little modification of the Carling (or similar) switches would add some degree of robustness. There's a product called JB Weld that offers a process for beefing up the riveted joints before the switches are installed. As soon as I get home, I'll do the treatment on a few switches and publish some photos. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Follow-up on Carling switch failures. . .
At 01:25 AM 1/3/2009, you wrote: >Yes, I am considering contacting the vendor to see if I can return >them, and change to Milspec switches throughout. I don't really >want them for a few bucks savings and if the vendor gets enough >back, perhaps they will offer/recommend a better product. > >Bevan If your worried about them I wouldn't discourage you from upgrading. Keep in mind that electrical system failures at the component level in a failure tolerant design is a low risk event. It's unfortunate that the price ratio of Carling vs. Microswitch is so large (about 1:4) but in the grand scheme of things, total dollars difference in the cost of your project for going with Microswitch is pretty trivial. I'm still tantalized by the idea that the Carlings with fast-on tabs have been around for a very long time. Adding robustness to the tabs before installation may offer a low cost means by which our observed shortcomings may be brought to heel. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2009
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Re: Using TurboCad
Morning, Bevan... It's been awhile since I played with TurboCad, I use VisualCad now, but the basics are pretty much the same in just about any CAD program. First, you may not be able to work directly with the dwg file, in case you are. Save it in Turbocad format before doing anything else. Then close the dwg file, open the Turbocad file and work with that. Although I have no problem editing Bob's drawings directly in VisualCAD, TurboCad may be different. Different CAD programs treat dwg drawings differently and may not allow editing until in the native format. I just checked one of Bob's Z drawings in my VCADD, and was able to edit it without any conversions, but it may be different for you in TCADD. >>Can I not just put a square around a section of the drawing, cut and paste etc?<< Yes and no! Remember, unlike the normal graphics we see on computers, CAD programs are a collection of components like lines, squares, circles and other geometrics as well as symbols that are complete in themselves. With a "normal" raster graphic (like a jpg or bmp file) simply drawing a "square" ("window" in CAD speak) around what you want to delete, then hitting the delete key removes everything inside the window. However, with CADD some of the components may lie OUTSIDE your selection window (like unseen points used to construct the object you are seeing...known as construction points. Or the other end of a line or symbol). When editing, CAD programs consider only COMPLETE objects and their components that are inside the window as having been selected. For example, putting a selection window around a straight line but not including one end of it, will not select that line. Also, curves and text often have reference points considerably removed from what you see. Unless these are included in the window, the object you see and want to work with will not be selected. In summary, any object whose visible AND invisible parts are inside the selection window will be selected and can be edited or removed. I find it easier to just use the selection tool (usually an arrow) to point to (then click on) an object to see what is included. Whatever gets highlighted is the entire object that has to be selected to edit. Right clicking then usually produces a menu of options for the highlighted (selected) object. Or you can use the delete key, ctrl-c or ctrl-x if you want to remove it, copy or cut respectively. To display the normally invisible construction points, which must be included in the selection, look for the command "Display Construction Points", or something similar. In Visual CAD it is the two letter command "DC". If the item you've selected by clicking on it with the selection pointer appears to be complex, i.e. made of several lines, circles, curves, etc, that are all highlighted at once, it has been been made into a symbol. If you want to remove the entire symbol, you're all set, as it has been selected in it's entirety. If you want to edit only a portion of it, then you first have to "de-symbolize" it (now that's a new word!). Look for a command that will do that. In VCADD, it's "Explode Symbol" (YX). You will then see the symbol broken down into it's component parts, and you can edit the individual lines, circles, text, etc. Hope this helps a bit...remembering Turbocad when I worked with it, I seem to recall that it had a pretty good help system, so any questions you have can probably be answered with a bit of search. The learning curve will eventually get you to the point where you can be comfortable with the level of drawing that you need. There are many commands and procedures in VCADD that I don't use, but with the drawing I do, I probably never will. Harley Dixon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ B Tomm wrote: > To the Cad whizzes out there. > > I'm taking advantage of the bad weather and trying to > "professionalize" my wiring diagrams using TurboCad. I'm starting to > feel really old here cause I'm so frustrated with this TurboCad > program. I really want to make it work and not get something else. > I've imported a drawing from Bob's collection in DWG format. All I > want to do is erase a few lines, re-draw them slightly elsewhere and > copy a few fuses to add the extra circuits. Erase, copy, cut, paste, > snap are eluding me even though there are a bazillion tools all > around. Can I not just put a square around a section of the drawing, > cut and paste etc? > > Jack Daniels is starting to tempt me! > > Bevan > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2009
From: LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com>
Subject: Re: Using TurboCad
Hi Bevan, The (AutoCAD) Dwg format needs to be saved as a TurboCAD format. That said, some of the characteristics of line manipulation will not carry over and you may need to break the drawing down to smaller elements or just make a new drawing. Starting with the TurboCAD is the better idea and when you get used to the program, you'll find it twice as fast as AutoCAD and much more intuitive. Larry McFarland 601HDS B Tomm wrote: > To the Cad whizzes out there. > > I'm taking advantage of the bad weather and trying to > "professionalize" my wiring diagrams using TurboCad. I'm starting to > feel really old here cause I'm so frustrated with this TurboCad > program. I really want to make it work and not get something else. > I've imported a drawing from Bob's collection in DWG format. All I > want to do is erase a few lines, re-draw them slightly elsewhere and > copy a few fuses to add the extra circuits. Erase, copy, cut, paste, > snap are eluding me even though there are a bazillion tools all > around. Can I not just put a square around a section of the drawing, > cut and paste etc? > > Jack Daniels is starting to tempt me! > > Bevan > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Cessna Flaps motor
From: "bouguy" <boullu.guy(at)libertysurf.fr>
Date: Jan 03, 2009
Hi , i am looking for the current draw of a 24v/28v flap motor of a Cessna 172 and not able to find it . thanks for help , Boullu guy . Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222590#222590 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David LLoyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Cessna Flaps motor
Date: Jan 03, 2009
Probably best to use the flaps circuit breaker rating, amps, in case the flap mechanism gets stiff or worn and the elect. motor goes to max current... D ----- Original Message ----- From: "bouguy" <boullu.guy(at)libertysurf.fr> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 8:41 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cessna Flaps motor > > > Hi , > > i am looking for the current draw of a 24v/28v flap motor > of a Cessna 172 and not able to find it . > > thanks for help , > > Boullu guy . > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222590#222590 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Cessna Flaps motor
At 10:41 AM 1/3/2009, you wrote: > >Hi , > >i am looking for the current draw of a 24v/28v flap motor >of a Cessna 172 and not able to find it . > >thanks for help , > >Boullu guy . How do you need to use the information? If for a load analysis, know that flaps are very low duty cycle (hence low energy) systems that are not big players in sizing an electrical system. If for circuit protection and wiring decisions, I think you'll find that this critter seldom draws more than 7 amps (extension during max allowable IAS for full flaps). You can check the size of a breaker in any of the 28v s.e. airplanes and go with that. It's probably a 10 or 15A breaker. You can wire with 14AWG and go with smaller breaker and upsize the breaker to and including 20A if you're getting nuisance trips. Assuming you're installing this motor/actuator in a OBAM aircraft, it could be that your flap geometry and air-loads are decidedly different that for the Cessna installation. Wire it with "too-big" wire and leave yourself room for resizing the breaker/fuse after you've had some time to acquire real-life experience with it. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-14 v Z-14Fadec question
> >Now, I have a general question regarding the Z-14 schemes. For the >crossover switch, up is to engage the starter with both batteries, >center is non-crossover, normal mode with batteries working to power >their bus independently and down is both batteries working together >on both busses......If I understand correctly. So, in the Z-14 >Fadec scheme, the start button engages the starter, then one >position on the switch is independent alt to each bus and the other >switch to have the systems work together? Or, is on position Off and >the other switch position engaging both alternators to work >together? If it is the second scenario, does that mean the two >systems ALWAYS work together? If so, is there any reason not to >have both systems always working together in the standard Z-14 >scheme. I assume the FADEC label is since it is always engaged >there is no pilot intervention. Just looking for a better >understanding. Thanks. Two ideas drove the crafting the first iteration of of Z-14 many moons ago. (1) For operators that plan a highly redundant electrical and instrumentation system for flight in marginal to adverse conditions, two independent systems is desirable/ practical by teaming a conventional main alternator with a vacuum pump pad driven alternator. (2) Both systems need their own battery. With fully redundant systems having cross-feed capability, one may strive for smallest practical batteries with the notion that battery-only flight is exceedingly improbable. However, small batteries don't crank engines well . . . so auto-crossfeed or paralleling small batteries during engine cranking is a useful thing to consider. The two systems are never cross-connected for normal operations. Each system receives the benefit of a load analysis. Pairs of redundant electronics are distributed between the two systems. Some years later we were offered electro-whizzies with desirable performance characteristics under normal operating conditions but not designed to live in the real-world of vehicular DC power systems. During starter motor inrush time, system voltage can sag sufficiently low, sufficiently long . . . http://tinyurl.com/6tbry6 that some appliances wander off into the weeds or take an untimely interval to reboot. These appliances include but are not limited to electronic ignitions, electronic fuel injection, EFIS systems, FADECs, etc. This prompted the addition of two Band-Aids to the Z-figures. The FADEC version of Z-14 suggested elimination of the auto-crossfeed feature during cranking. Another version of Z-13/8 was crafted to add a brownout protection battery and auto-disconnect relay to support e-bus loads during engine-cranking http://tinyurl.com/7q2usj The supposition you offered at the end of your post is not correct. The cross-feed switch in the FADEC version of Z-14 is never closed except to allow ONE working alternator to support both sides of the system (within that alternator's limitations). The switch is left open all other times. Recalcitrant systems are operated from the Aux Battery which is NOT loaded during engine cranking. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Allen Fulmer" <afulmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: Using TurboCad
Date: Jan 03, 2009
I have had pretty much the same frustrating experience with Turbo CAD! I bought the version 10 like BobN suggested for $10 or so, but found the program and internet devoid of any help or tutorials. Finally gave up. I get regular emails from the IMSI folks trying to get me to upgrade to the latest version, 15.2, for 50 bucks or so. Anyone care to offer an opinion on versions? I need to do something as my hand done drawings (sketches) won't really do for the finished product. Allen Fulmer RV7 Wiring Alexander City, AL -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of B Tomm Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 8:40 PM To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Using TurboCad To the Cad whizzes out there. I'm taking advantage of the bad weather and trying to "professionalize" my wiring diagrams using TurboCad. I'm starting to feel really old here cause I'm so frustrated with this TurboCad program. I really want to make it work and not get something else. I've imported a drawing from Bob's collection in DWG format. All I want to do is erase a few lines, re-draw them slightly elsewhere and copy a few fuses to add the extra circuits. Erase, copy, cut, paste, snap are eluding me even though there are a bazillion tools all around. Can I not just put a square around a section of the drawing, cut and paste etc? Jack Daniels is starting to tempt me! Bevan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2009
From: LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com>
Subject: Re: Using TurboCad
Hi Allen, TurboCAD is a fine program for one off drawings. Having experienced Pro E and AutoCAD, I've found TurboCAD is a versatile program if you sit down and read the reference manual completely. Spend a little time with it and you can't help but like it. If it's not part of your background, i.e., engineering or design you may take a little longer to get on with it, but don't get discouraged. I used the Aeroelectric guidance and did a schematic/drawing in TurboCAD without too many of the formal symbols. http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/primary-wiring.gif Allen Fulmer wrote: > I have had pretty much the same frustrating experience with Turbo > CAD! I bought the version 10 like BobN suggested for $10 or so, but > found the program and internet devoid of any help or tutorials. > Finally gave up. > > I get regular emails from the IMSI folks trying to get me to upgrade > to the latest version, 15.2, for 50 bucks or so. Anyone care to offer > an opinion on versions? > > I need to do something as my hand done drawings (sketches) won't > really do for the finished product. > > Allen Fulmer > RV7 Wiring > Alexander City, AL > * > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Follow-up on Carling switch failures. . .
Date: Jan 03, 2009
RE JB weld. I had the same thought yesterday. What I don't know is whether the JB weld will also add some thermal insulation to the joint and cause any excess heating which will lead to the same result as what we're trying to avoid. Those big exposed fast on tabs got to be working as radiators, but how much. Perhaps a dab of JB over the rivet only will have no appreciable affect on overall cooling. Anybody know the co-efficient of thermal conductivity of JB weld as it compares to copper? The fast on tabs on the switches are probably a copper alloy? Bevan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 5:46 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Follow-up on Carling switch failures. . . At 08:34 PM 1/2/2009, you wrote: Vern, When you say "Carling switches with loose rivets". How loose? Do you mean wobbly terminals? I've checked all mine and most of the terminals can pivot around the rivet until it hits a stop molded into the switch. I wonder if this is tight enough. I would expect them to be tighter. Interesting! The riveted-tabs are obviously not as rigid about the rivet axis. Some versions do drop the tab base into a "pocket" molded into the back of the housing. See: http://tinyurl.com/96yqmg I'm away from home for a week so I can't shuffle through all the switches in my shop. But even with the recesses shown, the tab isn't really "captured". I have a couple Mil-spec switches and I don't think they pivot like this but will check again next time I'm at the shop. Maybe this pivoting action is what is not compatible with a high vibration environment. I'm aware of no mil-qualified switches that do not feature terminals molded into the housing. Here's an exemplar design (Microswitch) . . . http://tinyurl.com/842eos I've had two strobe switch failures, one landing light switch (actually a wig-wag) failure, and one master switch failure (loose rivet but no charred terminals). I have also received brand-new Carling switches with loose terminals. In retrospect, the only thing that resists rotation of the tabs on the rivets is friction between tab and housing established coefficient of friction between plastic/brass and force of the riveted joint. Obviously, there are limits to the force you can put on the plastic housing . . . As an experiment, I replaced several Carling switches with Honeywell switches and have been running them, monitoring for failures. I proposed about 100 hours of testing before any conclusions could be made. This will probably take several more months. I have check them in the interim, with no problems. If the experiment shows failure of the Honeywell switches, then the problem may be attributed to my installation. If the experiment does not show failure of the Honeywell switches, then the problem may be attributed to the Carling switches sensitivity to vibration. . . . and I would expect no failures of these devices. They're exceedingly well designed and tested in environments our airplanes will never see. Bob has concluded that the Carling switches are fine, but should have vibration decoupling loops to minimize vibration stresses on the terminals. Good advice no matter who's switches are installed. Unfortunately, I don't agree that the problem is that my (our) installations are incorrect. Rather, I believe that the problem is that the Carling switches are unusually sensitive to vibration. Perhaps 'error' was the wrong term. Lack of understanding leads to lack of attention to the sensitivities you've cited . . . and without a doubt, tabs riveted to plastic housings have a weakness of design where vibration and temperature cycles are strong. In my next project, I am planning to use different switches, plus decoupling loops. In addition, strobe and landing light loads will be isolated with automotive relays which are generally more robust. It will be interesting to learn of your experience with this. Certainly addition of the relays will eliminate all potential for heating effects. It occurs to me that a little modification of the Carling (or similar) switches would add some degree of robustness. There's a product called JB Weld that offers a process for beefing up the riveted joints before the switches are installed. As soon as I get home, I'll do the treatment on a few switches and publish some photos. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Follow-up on Carling switch failures. . .
Date: Jan 03, 2009
I agree and adding JB would be the faster and easier way to go. Trouble is, it's all just theory for now, and the airplane is becoming a reality fast. Bevan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 6:01 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Follow-up on Carling switch failures. . . At 01:25 AM 1/3/2009, you wrote: Yes, I am considering contacting the vendor to see if I can return them, and change to Milspec switches throughout. I don't really want them for a few bucks savings and if the vendor gets enough back, perhaps they will offer/recommend a better product. Bevan If your worried about them I wouldn't discourage you from upgrading. Keep in mind that electrical system failures at the component level in a failure tolerant design is a low risk event. It's unfortunate that the price ratio of Carling vs. Microswitch is so large (about 1:4) but in the grand scheme of things, total dollars difference in the cost of your project for going with Microswitch is pretty trivial. I'm still tantalized by the idea that the Carlings with fast-on tabs have been around for a very long time. Adding robustness to the tabs before installation may offer a low cost means by which our observed shortcomings may be brought to heel. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Allen Fulmer" <afulmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: Using TurboCad
Date: Jan 03, 2009
Thanks for the encouragement, Larry. Any comment on version 10 vs. latest (15.2 at this time)? Thanks, Allen >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >>>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of >>>LarryMcFarland >>>Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 3:06 PM >>>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >>>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Using TurboCad >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Hi Allen, >>>TurboCAD is a fine program for one off drawings. Having >>>experienced Pro >>>E and AutoCAD, I've found TurboCAD is a versatile program if >>>you sit down >>>and read the reference manual completely. Spend a little >>>time with it >>>and you can't help but like it. If it's not part of your background, >>>i.e., engineering or design >>>you may take a little longer to get on with it, but don't get >>>discouraged. I used the Aeroelectric guidance and did a >>>schematic/drawing in TurboCAD >>>without too many of the formal symbols. >>>http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/primary-wiring.gif >>> >>> >>>Allen Fulmer wrote: >>>> I have had pretty much the same frustrating experience with Turbo >>>> CAD! I bought the version 10 like BobN suggested for $10 >>>or so, but >>>> found the program and internet devoid of any help or tutorials. >>>> Finally gave up. >>>> >>>> I get regular emails from the IMSI folks trying to get me >>>to upgrade >>>> to the latest version, 15.2, for 50 bucks or so. Anyone >>>care to offer >>>> an opinion on versions? >>>> >>>> I need to do something as my hand done drawings (sketches) won't >>>> really do for the finished product. >>>> >>>> Allen Fulmer >>>> RV7 Wiring >>>> Alexander City, AL >>>> * >>>> * >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2009
From: "Sam Hoskins" <sam.hoskins(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Battery capacity checker
I stumbled across this home brewed battery capacity tester, using a power inverter. Neat idea. http://www.instructables.com/id/AmpHourTest/ Sam Hoskins Murphysbro, IL ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Follow-up on Carling switch failures. . .
At 03:12 PM 1/3/2009, you wrote: >RE JB weld. > >I had the same thought yesterday. What I don't know is whether the >JB weld will also add some thermal insulation to the joint and cause >any excess heating which will lead to the same result as what we're >trying to avoid. Those big exposed fast on tabs got to be working >as radiators, but how much. Perhaps a dab of JB over the rivet only >will have no appreciable affect on overall cooling. Vern mentioned something last night that triggered another thought of my own today. Certainly vibration and bending moments put these joints at risk for loosening . . . but lack of gas-tightness increases resistance due to corrosion too. If you've got some switches to play with, see if the rivet is of an material that will readily alloy with 63/37 solder. We know that the brass tab will. If you can get a solder-cap over the rivet-to-tab interface AND THEN mechanically secure the tab with JB Weld, we may well have deduced the simplest 'fix'. > >Anybody know the co-efficient of thermal conductivity of JB weld as >it compares to copper? The fast on tabs on the switches are >probably a copper alloy? Heat rejection in a properly functioning switch is not an issue. Further, more heat is carried away on the fast-on terminal and wire than is radiated from the small portion of tab that would be covered by JB Weld. The kind of heat that accelerates destruction of the switch happens AFTER joint integrity is lost. Solder+Potting goes to protection of that integrity. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery capacity checker
At 05:22 PM 1/3/2009, you wrote: >I stumbled across this home brewed battery capacity tester, using a >power inverter. Neat idea. > ><http://www.instructables.com/id/AmpHourTest/>http://www.instructables.com/id/AmpHourTest/ > >Sam Hoskins >Murphysbro, IL Pretty slick. This is an extension of an idea I published in the battery chapter of the 'Connection way back when. A reprint of that idea was excerpted about 10 years ago and published at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/battest.pdf The idea discovered by Sam is interesting in that it takes advantage of the end-of-discharge detection feature built into many inverters (usually 100W or greater). It also has the advantage of choosing combinations of 120 volt bulbs for sizing load as opposed to 12 volt devices. As one reader suggested in the comments under the posting, one should probably put a good ammeter in series with the DC power leads to the inverter and then adjusting the number and size of lamps to achieve the desired load on the battery. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vern Little" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net>
Subject: Ground Power
Date: Jan 03, 2009
Bob, there's been some discussion on ground power setup over on the VAF list, and there's an issue that has come up that needs your sage advise. My design is based on a modified version of the one you have published (I use the milspec plug and add an over-ride so that I can force power out of the connector as well). Another builder has a different design that feeds the electrical system after the master contactor (not directly to the battery): See http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/90Electric...eBookPage2.pdf. I contend that if he has a dead battery, he cannot charge it with ground power, or even with a running engine. In my opinion, this defeats one of the purposes of ground power, which is jump-starting an aircraft with a dead battery. Since you can't fly without electrical power (usually). He claims that this is the way Cessna does it, and maybe they think that if you have a dead battery, you should charge it with a proper charger rather than jumpstarting and using your (overstressed) alternator to do the job for you. What are your thoughts on this? The list is here: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?p=286211#post28621 1 Thanks, Vern Little ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2009
Subject: Re: Battery capacity checker
From: "Brian R. Wood" <brianrobertwood(at)gmail.com>
Shouldn't you have to take into account the effciency of the inverter also, to get usable results? Brian in Brazil escreveu: > At 05:22 PM 1/3/2009, you wrote: >> I stumbled across this home brewed battery capacity tester, using a >> power inverter. Neat idea. >> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2009
From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Using TurboCad
I purchased the tutorial from IMSI. I found it to be quite good for a relative beginner. There are a lot of subtleties that are hard to ferret out of the manual alone, and the tutorial leads you through many of these and gives you a very good starting point. Good luck, Roger -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Allen Fulmer Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 3:13 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Using TurboCad I have had pretty much the same frustrating experience with Turbo CAD! I bought the version 10 like BobN suggested for $10 or so, but found the program and internet devoid of any help or tutorials. Finally gave up. I get regular emails from the IMSI folks trying to get me to upgrade to the latest version, 15.2, for 50 bucks or so. Anyone care to offer an opinion on versions? I need to do something as my hand done drawings (sketches) won't really do for the finished product. Allen Fulmer RV7 Wiring Alexander City, AL -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of B Tomm Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 8:40 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Using TurboCad To the Cad whizzes out there. I'm taking advantage of the bad weather and trying to "professionalize" my wiring diagrams using TurboCad. I'm starting to feel really old here cause I'm so frustrated with this TurboCad program. I really want to make it work and not get something else. I've imported a drawing from Bob's collection in DWG format. All I want to do is erase a few lines, re-draw them slightly elsewhere and copy a few fuses to add the extra circuits. Erase, copy, cut, paste, snap are eluding me even though there are a bazillion tools all around. Can I not just put a square around a section of the drawing, cut and paste etc? Jack Daniels is starting to tempt me! Bevan ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cessna Flaps motor
From: "bouguy" <boullu.guy(at)libertysurf.fr>
Date: Jan 04, 2009
Hi Bob , thanks for your reply ; it is not for a bus load analysis , as it is an intermittent load ; seen a 10A breaker on a 24Volts Cessna 172 but as i am building a faster aircraft with more flaps surfaces i thought it was not correctly sized for me . i am going to follow your indications : wiring with 14awg with a 15 Amp breaker , and if it pops up , i will change for a 20 Amp. i have a similar question for a Prestolite Power Pack rebuilt Aroelectic 28volts HYH-5001ECH ; what would be the correct wire sizing and breaker ? thanks again for help , Boullu guy . Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222762#222762 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 04, 2009
From: "Sam Hoskins" <sam.hoskins(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Using TurboCad
I have used various CAD systems over the years and when I retired I was seeking a good free one for home use. I came across a professional program called Siemens' Solid Edge Designer for 2D<http://www.plm.automation.siemens.com/en_us/products/velocity/solidedge/free2d/index.shtml>. I really like it. It uses something called "Relationship handles" which is useful, but difficult for me to describe here. The company makes it free to individuals and companies in the hope that you like it so much that you'll upgrade to their 3D system. It does work with all of Bob's drawings. The bad new is there is no manual available. The good news is the online help is adequate and, best yet, there is also ae e-mail list run by tech experts at SolidEdge. Sam Hoskins Murphysboro, IL On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 8:40 PM, B Tomm wrote: > To the Cad whizzes out there. > > I'm taking advantage of the bad weather and trying to "professionalize" my > wiring diagrams using TurboCad. I'm starting to feel really old here cause > I'm so frustrated with this TurboCad program. I really want to make it work > and not get something else. I've imported a drawing from Bob's collection > in DWG format. All I want to do is erase a few lines, re-draw them slightly > elsewhere and copy a few fuses to add the extra circuits. Erase, copy, cut, > paste, snap are eluding me even though there are a bazillion tools all > around. Can I not just put a square around a section of the drawing, cut > and paste etc? > > Jack Daniels is starting to tempt me! > > Bevan > > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 04, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery capacity checker
At 07:44 PM 1/3/2009, you wrote: > > >Shouldn't you have to take into account the effciency of the inverter >also, to get usable results? Not necessary. You set the load (numbers and sizes of light bulbs) to achieve the desired LOAD ON THE BATTERY. You're correct that lamp loads will be less than battery load due to inefficiencies in the power conversion process . . . That's why you set it up with the DC ammeter. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: VP-50 backup
From: "bcollinsmn" <bob(at)rvbuildershotline.com>
Date: Jan 04, 2009
Wondering if anyone has installed a Vertical Power 50 (or 100, the 200 is a whole different animal) system and, if so, what did your backup system look like? The "get home" system on the VP Web site would work if the control unit had already crapped out, but doesn't the fuse block prior to the control unit create a point of failure in normal operations? Is it serious? Bob Collins RV Builders' Hotline http://rvbuildershotline.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222789#222789 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 04, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Cessna Flaps motor
At 03:20 AM 1/4/2009, you wrote: > >Hi Bob , > >thanks for your reply ; > >it is not for a bus load analysis , as it is an intermittent load ; >seen a 10A breaker on a 24Volts Cessna 172 but as i am >building a faster aircraft with more flaps surfaces i thought it >was not correctly sized for me . "faster", "more" etc. are poor quantifiers of design. The air-loads on a flap system are directly related to area and IAS . . . but FORCE on the actuator is also a function of rates and mechanism. >i am going to follow your indications : wiring with 14awg with >a 15 Amp breaker , and if it pops up , i will change for a 20 Amp. > >i have a similar question for a Prestolite Power Pack rebuilt >Aroelectic 28volts HYH-5001ECH ; what would be the correct >wire sizing and breaker ? It's a WAG. Without specific engineering data for using this component in the proposed system, the conservative approach is duplicate what was in the original system and then take measurements during your fly-off to deduce whether or not modifications are called for. It's not likely that you're going to experience any big surprises. Even if you do, the worst thing that happens is an adjustment of wire size and protection. I get a lot of emails on this and similar topics. Many folks think that from first flight on a new airplane until s/n 100 rolls of the assembly line, few if any changes happen to the design. Our OBAM aircraft are no different with respect to verifying achievement of design goals . . . The potential for risk in sizing wire and fuses is very low. WAG it, verify it, then modify as necessary. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sheldon Olesen <saolesen(at)sirentel.net>
Subject: Fuel pressure sender testing
Date: Jan 04, 2009
Bob, I'm having trouble with my EIS 6000 fuel pressure reading. I have the proper scale, offset factors, and resistor entered into the EIS for a 0-30 setup. It reads a constant 10.3 psi regardless of whether or not the fuel pump is on or not. I've checked the continuity of the pressure sender across the terminals and it has continuity and a resistance of 6.2 ohms without the pump being on. However, I have no idea of what it is supposed to read and how to trouble shoot the problem. Some hints would be welcome. Thanks, Sheldon Olesen ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Using TurboCad
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jan 04, 2009
Eric's Guaranteed Ten-Step Program for Learning TurboCAD (or any CAD program): Intro: 1) Almost all CAD programs are wonderful. The more expensive ones have only a tiny bit more than the cheapest (or the FREE ones). Any CAD is a million times better than no CAD. CAD, along with a web browser, email, a spreadsheet and a word processing program are just about required to express your technical talents nowadays. 2) Pareto's Principle: 20% of any tools will do 80% of the work, so you don't have to learn it all. Once you can do the basics, you will intuitively know there are additional tools for more complicated stuff. 3) If you really want to get good at mechanical drawing, get a copy of ANSI-Y14.5M Dimensioning and Tolerancing. The 1982 edition is $20 and 99% current today. The 1994 edition is about $90 on Amazon. This is not required for electrical schematics and other arts. 4) You'll need a good monitor, a decently fast computer (Especially for 3D), and a mouse. But you can use any printer, and the fancy devices you sometimes see in CAD setups are not needed. Basics: 5) The computer screen is a window to look through, not a piece of drawing paper to look upon. This simple idea often baffles new users. Understand this thoroughly or you will be lost. 6) CAD has no display scale. Print scales are only rarely followed (see point 5). A CAD information block never (or rarely) says "SCALE", unless the boss is an idiot. Learning it: 7) If you have a paper tutorial manual (remember the software has the manual in it, usually in a more usable form). Turn on the CAD program. Tear the covers off the manual and drop them into the trash. Then look at a page, understand and DO what is on it and drop it into the trash. Don't puzzle over anything...you can do that later. If a tool does not seem relevant, toss it into the trash. Very satisfying. 8) Turn off the CAD program and sleep on it. You'll get better at it as you sleep. 9) Remember that there is a simple way to do everything, and CAD has tools to make those simple task even easier (and more sophisticated), but you can always revert to doing things in simple ways. As a learning game--Draw a circle: It can be done with a center and one point on the circumference, Two semicircles, four quarter-circles, the letter "o", the zero, a three point circle, a freehand sketch...see how many you can come up with. 10) Start using it. Begin slowly and don't beat yourself, and don't push yourself if it is not fun--because you'll never learn it unless you enjoy it. Appendix: CAD provides an infinite variety of capabilities. Sometimes machined parts are drawn as CAD drawings, but a layer under the drawing can be the Bill of Materials, the revision history, design notes, whatever. A drawing can have a huge number of layers. A thing drawn in CAD can be saved and never has to be drawn again. CAD data can be input to automatic machinery to make a part. CAD can be drawn parametrically to make different sized parts. The applications are endless. Things can be drawn in CAD that simply CANNOT be drawn by hand. These vary from the simplest second-order curves to complex spirals, and 2d and 3d geometric forms, Bezier splines, log curves, etc. Finally: Have faith! Sell or give away your set of mechanical drawing tools, including Tee Square and drawing boards, templates and engineering rulers, drawing pens, triangles, french curves, centers, trammels, lettering guides, electric eraser, on and on....That day ain't never coming back. ps (Google "TurboCAD tutorial" NOT "turbo CAD tutorial"). -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222803#222803 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jef Vervoort" <jef.vervoortw(at)telenet.be>
Subject: VOR interference with other wiring?
Date: Jan 04, 2009
Hello, I'm mounting a Bob Archer VOR antenna in the right wingtip. There will be also lights, nav. & landing & strobe. The strobes will be powered by a single power pack in the fuselage, using a shielded cable ( from Whelen). I have mounted a corrugated nylon conduit in the wings, and was planning to put all the wires, including the VOR coax, together in this conduit. Is this a good solution? I do not find accurate info in the archives. Thanks; Jef Vervoort, RV9A. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David M" <ainut(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Using TurboCad
Date: Jan 04, 2009
I've tried several CAD programs over the years, an own a version of TurboCAD. What I dislike intensely about these is the horrible user interface. None of them are intuitive. Just to layout a simple wall with adjoining wall is my initial test. All of them fail. David M. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sam Hoskins To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 7:58 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Using TurboCad I have used various CAD systems over the years and when I retired I was seeking a good free one for home use. I came across a professional program called Siemens' Solid Edge Designer for 2D. I really like it. It uses something called "Relationship handles" which is useful, but difficult for me to describe here. The company makes it free to individuals and companies in the hope that you like it so much that you'll upgrade to their 3D system. It does work with all of Bob's drawings. The bad new is there is no manual available. The good news is the online help is adequate and, best yet, there is also ae e-mail list run by tech experts at SolidEdge. Sam Hoskins Murphysboro, IL On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 8:40 PM, B Tomm wrote: To the Cad whizzes out there. I'm taking advantage of the bad weather and trying to "professionalize" my wiring diagrams using TurboCad. I'm starting to feel really old here cause I'm so frustrated with this TurboCad program. I really want to make it work and not get something else. I've imported a drawing from Bob's collection in DWG format. All I want to do is erase a few lines, re-draw them slightly elsewhere and copy a few fuses to add the extra circuits. Erase, copy, cut, paste, snap are eluding me even though there are a bazillion tools all around. Can I not just put a square around a section of the drawing, cut and paste etc? Jack Daniels is starting to tempt me! Bevan ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 1/3/2009 2:14 PM ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Using TurboCad
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jan 04, 2009
Let's not make this a back-and-forth about which CAD program is best. TurboCAD is fine (and it's NOT even what I use...). ALL CAD programs are good, and the differences between them make comparisons difficult. Any first-time user might find the learning curve steep, but see my (above)suggestions. Simple programs are easy to use but limited, complex programs are harder to learn but powerful and expensive. But learn SOMETHING, and they all talk to each other...so what the heck. "....be sure to make a copy of everything before getting rid of it." --Samuel Goldwyn -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222834#222834 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 04, 2009
Subject: Re: Anything wrong with using a plier style
crimper?
From: rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US
Hi Bob Thx. for the information you sent. I have been fooling with borrowed crimpers since your reply E-mail, some cheap, some not so cheap, and although I can get a semi OK crimp on #22 wire, I just wasn't happy. That's until just now. A local guy turned up at the airport and had an Amp 59250 tool that he purchased used off of E-Bay. It appears to be the exact same tool as you depict as "high priced tool" in: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html It works great on a single #22! Easy to use. End of story, I can borrow anytime I need. The reason it works better is the die is very well thought out where it contains the terminal from growing too wide. The other tools work OK on #20 wire, but the 59250 works well on both. Ron Parigoris >>I rounded up some ratcheting style crimping tools from airport folk >>and a homebuilder for crimping Red crimp on connectors from Stein >>(fast on and ring). >> >>Got hold of a Paladin tool with several sets of dies, and some no >>name non adjustable tool. >> >>The die sets for the Paladine: >>****Part number said for insulated terminals and had 3 colored dots >>including red >>****There was a set of dies with no part number but fit tool >>(perhaps from Stein??) and looked like for insulated terminals >>And a few others, one for uninsulated terminals and other >> >>First off no matter what the adjustment, if using 22 gauge wire, >>even with the dies completely bottomed, could not get as much a grip >>as i would like. I could semi make it better by splicing more wire >>and doubling it over to better fill hole. Problem was it still did >>not crimp wire terrific and the portion that was to crimp on the >>insulation for strain relief was too far away (too wide a die?) >>where it was only partially catching the metal in the terminals. All >>the terminals from Stein and Terminal Town and Mcmaster (double >>metal) appeared to be too short for tool. I tried all the dies I had >>and combinations. Not great success with the no name tool with fixed >>dies and is non adjustable. >> >>I could get an OK crimp, probably will work and with heat shrink >>support will probably be OK, but insulation was not captured >>properly and if i sliced open the crimp on the wire, you could see >>it is not as compact as would be nice. >> >>Then I pulled out an old and rusty Whitaker WC2850 tool, looks like >>a pair of pliers with several dies on it. >> >>After some practice I can make what I think is a very nice crimp, >>far better than what I could do with the other tools. >> >>*First I stripped twice what I need and double up tail to go into >> terminal >>*Then crimp with RARB die about 1/16" from the edge of terminal >>*Then use a part of tool called "A" which is kind of a half cylinder >>(feel here is important) and put a dimple on top of terminal where I >>just crimped. I tried to over crimp this step and if I go crazy >>where terminal in stead of being straight begins to bend, I can tear >>wire when pulled very hard because wire is mashed too much. I am >>pretty confident can repeat this dimple consistently. When I sliced >>practice terminals apart had a very compacted crimp without strands >>being deformed/mashed. Without dimple, crimp is acceptable in my >>mind for automobiles only, and places easy to get at with no moisture >> present. >>*Then use RARB to crimp wire insulation about 1/16" from edge, no >>hurting of insulation at all and wire is held pretty good. >> >>Anyone see any problems crimping like I describe? i could have >>stripped and crimped a dozen terminals in time it took me to write this. >> >>Ron Parigoris > > The physics for making a gas-tight connection between wire > and terminal is process-sensitive. The "ideal" crimped > junction puts sufficient force on the terminal to close > the cross-section of terminal and wire copper just to the > point that the terminal and wire strands become one piece > of metal. Too little mash, and voids in the joint allow > oxygen laden moisture to enter raising risk of failure > due to corrosion. Too much mash and strength of the > strands is weakened by reduction of cross-section thus > raising risk of failure under tension/vibration. See: > > http://aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html > > Dimple-crimps are for terminals going onto solid wire > only. See "Solistrand" terminals and tooling from AMP. > > You will note that all crimp tools suggested and/or > evaluated in our writing are free of "dimple" punches. > The PIDG style terminal is best applied with uniform > pressure offered by smooth bore dies. > > Of secondary concern is molding of the wire-grip to the > conductor just outside the joint. The terminal may have > too little volume in the closed condition for the amount > of plastic in the terminal's wire support insulation. > See: > > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Terminals/JST_Samples_2.jpg > > These terminals were electrically okay when installed with > our favorite tools . . . but did not become part of our > inventory because we had no tools that would do a professional > looking installation. > > Ron, it's not possible to encourage or discourage use of the > tools you've cited without making a first-hand evaluation > of their performance under the guide-lines discussed in > the article above and these additional pieces found on > my website . . . > > http://aeroelectric.com/articles/faston3.pdf > > http://aeroelectric.com/articles/terminal.pdf > > Finally, on the subject of wire-joining, I'll remind > readers of this article published some years back > in Sport Aviation. The author didn't have a > clue about simple-ideas for the processes in > which he claimed considerable knowledged and skill. > > http://aeroelectric.com/articles/rules/review.html > > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 04, 2009
Subject: Amp crimper 59250 question
From: rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US
The Amp crimper 59250 as seen in: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html has a four position adjustment. How is it best determined which position to select for a given wire/terminal? Thx. Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis & Anne Glaeser" <glaesers(at)wideopenwest.com>
Subject: Re: VOR interference with other wiring?
Date: Jan 04, 2009
I did exactly that on my RV7A and have no problems whatsoever. Dennis Glaeser ----------------------------------- Hello, I'm mounting a Bob Archer VOR antenna in the right wingtip. There will be also lights, nav. & landing & strobe. The strobes will be powered by a single power pack in the fuselage, using a shielded cable ( from Whelen). I have mounted a corrugated nylon conduit in the wings, and was planning to put all the wires, including the VOR coax, together in this conduit. Is this a good solution? I do not find accurate info in the archives. Thanks; Jef Vervoort, RV9A. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Phil Samuelian <psamuelian(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: MaxDim Group Buy Opportunity
Date: Jan 04, 2009
LAST CALL!!! All current orders for the MaxDim panel dimmer "Group Buy" will be shipped this week. If you're thinking about using the most sophisticated panel dimmer in your project, this would be the time to buy. Price guaranteed for the next 10 days... $128 each + $3 shipping (+ sales tax in CA). These dimmers are unparalleled in performance... NO heat, NO separate, bulky control unit. NO heatsink. Amazing 350W power control in a 1.25" diameter unit. This is a best-of-breed product. Mooney has specified these for all their new planes! (STC and PMA) 5-35VDC, 12.5Amps and around 1 ounce! Hook up power, ground, and lights (3 connections), 2 mounting holes to drill, and you're done. PLEASE CONTACT OFF-LIST psamuelian(at)charter.net and provide info: Your Name? How many MaxDim units? Your shipping address? (USA only, please) Your phone number? Please mention the "Aeroelectric MaxDim Group Buy" in the subject of your email. PayPal or other arrangements for payment. These are priced a few bucks above distribution to cover the shipping costs to me, and handling charges when redistributed to you. I recently installed 2 of these in my Cessna and they perform as advertised. Thanks! Phil RV7 tail (looking to buy wing kit), Cessna 177 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Using TurboCad
Date: Jan 04, 2009
Thanks for advice. I am downloading now and will give it a try. Bevan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 5:58 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Using TurboCad I have used various CAD systems over the years and when I retired I was seeking a good free one for home use. I came across a professional program called Siemens' <http://www.plm.automation.siemens.com/en_us/products/velocity/solidedge/fre e2d/index.shtml> Solid Edge Designer for 2D. I really like it. It uses something called "Relationship handles" which is useful, but difficult for me to describe here. The company makes it free to individuals and companies in the hope that you like it so much that you'll upgrade to their 3D system. It does work with all of Bob's drawings. The bad new is there is no manual available. The good news is the online help is adequate and, best yet, there is also ae e-mail list run by tech experts at SolidEdge. Sam Hoskins Murphysboro, IL On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 8:40 PM, B Tomm wrote: To the Cad whizzes out there. I'm taking advantage of the bad weather and trying to "professionalize" my wiring diagrams using TurboCad. I'm starting to feel really old here cause I'm so frustrated with this TurboCad program. I really want to make it work and not get something else. I've imported a drawing from Bob's collection in DWG format. All I want to do is erase a few lines, re-draw them slightly elsewhere and copy a few fuses to add the extra circuits. Erase, copy, cut, paste, snap are eluding me even though there are a bazillion tools all around. Can I not just put a square around a section of the drawing, cut and paste etc? Jack Daniels is starting to tempt me! Bevan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel pressure sender testing
Date: Jan 05, 2009
Try calibrating it off the plane, with air pressure and a pressure gauge hooked up to a regulator. then you can measure the resistance as a function of pressure and see if the sender is changing, or if the problem lies with the readout. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser #4045 N343BS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sheldon Olesen" <saolesen(at)sirentel.net> Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 10:46 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fuel pressure sender testing > > > Bob, > > I'm having trouble with my EIS 6000 fuel pressure reading. I have the > proper scale, offset factors, and resistor entered into the EIS for a > 0-30 setup. It reads a constant 10.3 psi regardless of whether or not > the fuel pump is on or not. I've checked the continuity of the pressure > sender across the terminals and it has continuity and a resistance of 6.2 > ohms without the pump being on. However, I have no idea of what it is > supposed to read and how to trouble shoot the problem. Some hints would > be welcome. > > Thanks, > > Sheldon Olesen > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob" <resauer(at)cox.net>
Subject: Static in radio
Date: Jan 05, 2009
Com Icom A-6 handheld connected only to headset, NO CONNECTION TO A/C ELECT RICAL. Static noise and flickering RX symbol on handheld (no voice being re ceived)so distractiing its makes use unbearable. No static during actual v oice reception-tower reports clear,good, no noise voice. Outside of a/c fac ing prop or tail (no noise)-move in circle about a/c noise develops. Inside a/c noise at all times except during actual voice reception. The following have NO affect: tried different radio,headset, partchcords-disconnected al ternator belt,field lead-put condensor for noise trap on regulator,coil, di stributor-on/off of elec T/B(has in-line filter),trim tab,intercom,strobe-a ll electrical connections,wires,terminal strips verified good-only other el ectrical are the amp/vot meter connections. Noise does not occur when radio /headset combo used in other a/c. 12 years building, FAA certified, l year so far chasing =22BUGS=22 and hopefully last item to correct so I CAN FLY! P LEASE HELP IF YOU WOULD Thank You, Bob Sauer Age 70 Wanting to Fly www.re sauer(at)cox.net -- We are a community of 5.8 million users fighting spam. The Professional version does not have this message ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Static in radio
Date: Jan 05, 2009
From: Etienne Phillips <etienne.phillips(at)gmail.com>
Hi Bob Not trying to be funny, or to appear obnoxious in any way, but have you tried adjusting the squelch? If the radio is actively receiving voice, then you shouldn't here anything! If the voice reception is clear, then it reduces the possibility of serious interference, and is probably the radio turning the gain all the way up when there's no signal being received, thereby amplifying even the smallest bit of noise. If your squelch level is set to open, or is too low, then the radio will think this is a legitimate signal and plays it through the headset. I hope this helps... Etienne On 05 Jan 2009, at 6:46 PM, Bob wrote: > Com Icom A-6 handheld connected only to headset, NO CONNECTION TO A/ > C ELECTRICAL. Static noise and flickering RX symbol on handheld (no > voice being received)so distractiing its makes use unbearable. No > static during actual voice reception-tower reports clear,good, no > noise voice. Outside of a/c facing prop or tail (no noise)-move in > circle about a/c noise develops. Inside a/c noise at all times > except during actual voice reception. The following have NO affect: > tried different radio,headset, partchcords-disconnected alternator > belt,field lead-put condensor for noise trap on regulator,coil, > distributor-on/off of elec T/B(has in-line filter),trim > tab,intercom,strobe-all electrical connections,wires,terminal > strips verified good-only other electrical are the amp/vot meter > connections. Noise does not occur when radio/headset combo used in > other a/c. 12 years building, FAA certified, l year so far chasing > "BUGS" and hopefully last item to correct so I CAN FLY! > P LEASE HELP IF YOU WOULD Thank You, Bob Sauer Age 70 Wanting to > Fly www.resauer(at)cox.net > > We are a community of 5.8 million users fighting spam. > The Professional version does not have this message > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sheldon Olesen <saolesen(at)sirentel.net>
Subject: Lemo plug and KX99
Date: Jan 05, 2009
Has anyone tried to hookup a Bose Lemo plug to a KX99 hand held? Any problems? Sheldon Olesen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Barter" <kesleyelectric(at)chooseblue.coop>
Subject: Metcal soldering wand repair
Date: Jan 05, 2009
A while back I purchased a Metcal soldering wand, model MX RM3E, which was damaged when it arrived. The cable had been severed about in the middle. The company sent me a replacement, but I was wondering if the cable could be repaired. The cable has a braided shield around a single stranded conductor. Any thoughts? Regards, Tom Barter Kesley, IA Avid Magnum ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 05, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Metcal soldering wand repair
At 12:19 PM 1/5/2009, you wrote: >A while back I purchased a Metcal soldering wand, model MX RM3E, >which was damaged when it arrived. The cable had been severed about >in the middle. The company sent me a replacement, but I was >wondering if the cable could be repaired. The cable has a braided >shield around a single stranded conductor. Any thoughts? > Sure. It's not "magic" wire. It's not even a true coaxial cable suitable for transmission lines. The Metcal power supplies are really a radio frequency transmitter with an operating frequency about 300 Khz and a 30 watts or so power output. The soldering tips are the "magic" parts. At temperatures below their rated heating value, they represent a rather low impedance load to the "transmitter". Hence they draw power and convert it to heat (really useful for melting solder). At their calibrated operating temperature, the "magic" material in the tip (30% unobtainium alloyed with 69% youneverheardofit and 1% pixiedust) goes into a high impedance state thus reducing its power consumption thereby regulating temperature AT THE TIP. The wand wiring is special to the extent that it is very flexible, resistant to damage from the hot iron, and reasonably robust (but as you've observed, not invincible!). Ordinary craftsmanship can be used to splice your damaged wire. Take a look at this comic book: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/shldwire/shldwire.html Suggest you prepare the cut ends as shown except cut the center conductor to about 1/4" exposed insulation and 1/2" exposed wire. Lap splice the center conductors. Wrap with two layers electrical tap. Trim outer conductor for 1/2" overlap and solder those too. Cover whole thing with heat-shrink (oh yeah, the heat shrink needs to go on before you start stripping/splicing the conductors. I've made similar repairs to Metcal wands like this twice with gratifying results. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 05, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Amp crimper 59250 question
At 03:29 PM 1/4/2009, you wrote: >The Amp crimper 59250 as seen in: ><http://aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html>http://aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html > >has a four position adjustment. > >How is it best determined which position to select for a given wire/terminal? It stays on "1" unless you're putting terminals onto multiple wires as in . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Terminals/3x20Blue.jpg or using wire with really thick insulation like . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Terminals/CLEVELAND66A.jpg Do some tests. It's better to err on too-tight as opposed to too-loose. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 05, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: VOR interference with other wiring?
It's a well watered and fertilized myth that strobe head wires are a noise coupling risk to coaxial feedlines to antennas. You may route them together without concern. Bob . . . At 03:44 PM 1/4/2009, you wrote: > > >I did exactly that on my RV7A and have no problems whatsoever. > >Dennis Glaeser > >----------------------------------- >Hello, >I'm mounting a Bob Archer VOR antenna in the right wingtip. >There will be also lights, nav. & landing & strobe. >The strobes will be powered by a single power pack in the fuselage, using a >shielded cable ( from Whelen). >I have mounted a corrugated nylon conduit in the wings, and was planning to >put all the wires, including the VOR coax, together in this conduit. > >Is this a good solution? I do not find accurate info in the archives. > >Thanks; Jef Vervoort, RV9A. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 05, 2009
Subject: Re: Amp crimper 59250 question
From: rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US
Hi Bob Thx. for the reply. I found a useful site: http://www.aircraftmech.com Under crimpers Then AMP P.I.G.D. Certicrimp 59250 with pictures of precise what you said. There appears to be lots of good information on aeroplane electrical stuff, if you have a chance have a look and let group know what you think. Sincerely Ron Parigoris > It stays on "1" unless you're putting terminals onto > multiple wires as in . . . > > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Terminals/3x20Blue.jpg > > or using wire with really thick insulation like . . . > > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Terminals/CLEVELAND66A.jpg > > Do some tests. It's better to err on too-tight as > opposed to too-loose. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 05, 2009
From: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Subject: Re: Amp crimper 59250 question
rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US a crit : > I found a useful site: > http://www.aircraftmech.com > > ... > > There appears to be lots of good information on aeroplane electrical > stuff, if you have a chance have a look and let group know what you think. > Ron and all, Thanks for the hint to this most interesting website. I noticed the author is aware of the Aeroelectric website and technical picture. I'm also proud to mention that the author is also aware of the Contrails ! website, and found some of my own electrical pictures worthy of publishing ;-) Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 05, 2009
Subject: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?
From: rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US
Anyone have any thoughts on using Cool Amp onbuss and other high amperage connections? http://www.cool-amp.com/ It is a wipe on with damp cloth application. Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Allen Fulmer" <afulmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: Will other wiring interfere with Magnetometer?
Date: Jan 05, 2009
Rather than hijack the thread on interference with Bob Archer VOR antennas I thought I would start a new thread on Magnetometer interference: My magnetometers will be on the end ribs of my RV7. GRT Magnetometer installation instructions read: ----------------------------------------------- "The most important consideration when mounting the magnetometer is that of choosing a location in the airplane that is away from magnetic disturbances. It is quite amazing how sensitive the magnetometer is to these disturbances, and how much error this can cause in the magnetic heading reported by the AHRS." and then: "... be sure to keep the magnetometer at least 12 inches away from any current carrying wires (such as navigation or landing light wires), and more than 18 inches away from ferrous metal, such as the steel mass balance tube that is typically used in the leading edge of ailerons." ----------------------------------------------- On my RV7, I only put two conduits in the wings as I was building: one near the trailing edge that runs parallel (and within 12 inches) to the aileron "steel mass balance tube" and the other just behind the spar. This forward run was originally going to carry all the wires to strobes, nav. lights, landing lights, and coax to Bob Archer VOR antenna. I guess I could run all the electrical stuff in the rear conduit and the magnetometer wires in the forward one. Opinion Bob? Other's experience? Thanks, Allen Fulmer RV7 wiring Alexander City, AL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Emrath" <emrath(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Using TurboCad
Date: Jan 05, 2009
FYI, I downloaded for free the Turbocad LE or Learning edition. The tutorial is on line. Worked for me, but it is a bit cumbersome but it was a good price to value ratio. Marty Brentwood TN From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Using TurboCad Thanks for advice. I am downloading now and will give it a try. Bevan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 5:58 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Using TurboCad I have used various CAD systems over the years and when I retired I was seeking a good free one for home use. I came across a professional program called Siemens' <http://www.plm.automation.siemens.com/en_us/products/velocity/solidedge/fre e2d/index.shtml> Solid Edge Designer for 2D. I really like it. It uses something called "Relationship handles" which is useful, but difficult for me to describe here. The company makes it free to individuals and companies in the hope that you like it so much that you'll upgrade to their 3D system. It does work with all of Bob's drawings. The bad new is there is no manual available. The good news is the online help is adequate and, best yet, there is also ae e-mail list run by tech experts at SolidEdge. Sam Hoskins Murphysboro, IL On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 8:40 PM, B Tomm wrote: To the Cad whizzes out there. I'm taking advantage of the bad weather and trying to "professionalize" my wiring diagrams using TurboCad. I'm starting to feel really old here cause I'm so frustrated with this TurboCad program. I really want to make it work and not get something else. I've imported a drawing from Bob's collection in DWG format. All I want to do is erase a few lines, re-draw them slightly elsewhere and copy a few fuses to add the extra circuits. Erase, copy, cut, paste, snap are eluding me even though there are a bazillion tools all around. Can I not just put a square around a section of the drawing, cut and paste etc? Jack Daniels is starting to tempt me! Bevan Marty ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert McCallum" <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Will other wiring interfere with Magnetometer?
Date: Jan 06, 2009
Allen; The instructions you cite seem to be referring to the location of the magnetometer itself NOT the routing of its connecting wires. The instructions say "when mounting the magnetometer - - etc choose a location away from magnetic disturbances" They make no mention of any precautions to be taken in routing or location of the connecting wires which is what you'd be running through your conduit. No personal experience one way or the other, just my interpretation of the quotes you've submitted. Bob McC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allen Fulmer" <afulmer(at)charter.net> Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 7:12 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Will other wiring interfere with Magnetometer? > > Rather than hijack the thread on interference with Bob Archer VOR antennas I > thought I would start a new thread on Magnetometer interference: > > My magnetometers will be on the end ribs of my RV7. > > GRT Magnetometer installation instructions read: > ----------------------------------------------- > "The most important consideration when mounting the magnetometer is that of > choosing a location in the airplane that is away from magnetic disturbances. > It is quite amazing how sensitive the magnetometer is to these disturbances, > and how much error this can cause in the magnetic heading reported by the > AHRS." > and then: > "... be sure to keep the magnetometer at least 12 inches away from any > current carrying wires (such as navigation or landing light wires), and more > than 18 inches away from ferrous metal, such as the steel mass balance tube > that is typically used in the leading edge of ailerons." > ----------------------------------------------- > > On my RV7, I only put two conduits in the wings as I was building: one near > the trailing edge that runs parallel (and within 12 inches) to the aileron > "steel mass balance tube" and the other just behind the spar. This forward > run was originally going to carry all the wires to strobes, nav. lights, > landing lights, and coax to Bob Archer VOR antenna. > > I guess I could run all the electrical stuff in the rear conduit and the > magnetometer wires in the forward one. > > Opinion Bob? Other's experience? > > Thanks, > > Allen Fulmer > RV7 wiring > Alexander City, AL > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Allen Fulmer" <afulmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: Will other wiring interfere with Magnetometer?
Date: Jan 06, 2009
Okay, so it would be okay to run all the wires and cables thorough the same conduit but the current carrying ones "(such as navigation or landing light wires)" would still need to pass at least 12" from the magnetometer. With the magnetometer 18" forward of the rear spar (and thus the aileron steel mass balance tube) the wires for Nav and strobes will have to be routed 12" forward of that on their way to forward end of wingtip. That should be consistent with Bob Archer's antenna design. Thanks, Allen Fulmer >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >>>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On >>>Behalf Of Robert >>>McCallum >>>Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 11:37 PM >>>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >>>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Will other wiring interfere with >>>Magnetometer? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Allen; >>> >>>The instructions you cite seem to be referring to the location of the >>>magnetometer itself NOT the routing of its connecting wires. The >>>instructions say "when mounting the magnetometer - - etc >>>choose a location >>>away from magnetic disturbances" They make no mention of any >>>precautions to >>>be taken in routing or location of the connecting wires >>>which is what you'd >>>be running through your conduit. >>>No personal experience one way or the other, just my >>>interpretation of the >>>quotes you've submitted. >>> >>>Bob McC >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Allen Fulmer" <afulmer(at)charter.net> >>>To: >>>Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 7:12 PM >>>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Will other wiring interfere with >>>Magnetometer? >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Rather than hijack the thread on interference with Bob >>>Archer VOR antennas >>>I >>>> thought I would start a new thread on Magnetometer interference: >>>> >>>> My magnetometers will be on the end ribs of my RV7. >>>> >>>> GRT Magnetometer installation instructions read: >>>> ----------------------------------------------- >>>> "The most important consideration when mounting the >>>magnetometer is that >>>of >>>> choosing a location in the airplane that is away from magnetic >>>disturbances. >>>> It is quite amazing how sensitive the magnetometer is to these >>>disturbances, >>>> and how much error this can cause in the magnetic heading >>>reported by the >>>> AHRS." >>>> and then: >>>> "... be sure to keep the magnetometer at least 12 inches >>>away from any >>>> current carrying wires (such as navigation or landing >>>light wires), and >>>more >>>> than 18 inches away from ferrous metal, such as the steel >>>mass balance >>>tube >>>> that is typically used in the leading edge of ailerons." >>>> ----------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> On my RV7, I only put two conduits in the wings as I was >>>building: one >>>near >>>> the trailing edge that runs parallel (and within 12 >>>inches) to the aileron >>>> "steel mass balance tube" and the other just behind the spar. This >>>forward >>>> run was originally going to carry all the wires to >>>strobes, nav. lights, >>>> landing lights, and coax to Bob Archer VOR antenna. >>>> >>>> I guess I could run all the electrical stuff in the rear >>>conduit and the >>>> magnetometer wires in the forward one. >>>> >>>> Opinion Bob? Other's experience? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Allen Fulmer >>>> RV7 wiring >>>> Alexander City, AL >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 06, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Will other wiring interfere with Magnetometer?
At 07:49 AM 1/6/2009, you wrote: > >Okay, so it would be okay to run all the wires and cables thorough the same >conduit but the current carrying ones "(such as navigation or landing light >wires)" would still need to pass at least 12" from the magnetometer. > >With the magnetometer 18" forward of the rear spar (and thus the aileron >steel mass balance tube) the wires for Nav and strobes will have to be >routed 12" forward of that on their way to forward end of wingtip. That >should be consistent with Bob Archer's antenna design. Magnetometer installation is a good example of a case where careful paralleling and perhaps twisting of outbound/return current paths as they pass by the magnetometer. I had a builder who reported a compass swing of several degrees when he turned on nav lights. Seems he grounded the lamp locally and had a single power lead running only a few inches from the remote compass sensor. He fixed the problem by running a twisted pair for power and ground past the compass sensor. Strobe and antenna wiring generally have no risk to magnetometer calibration. Only those bundles/wires with significant unidirectional DC currents flowing in them have a potential for problems. Of course, DISTANCE is also a strong attenuator of magnetic effects. I forget the exact relationship but I'm thinking that effects of a wire at 1" are reduced by a factor of more than 100 at 10". Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?
Date: Jan 06, 2009
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
Ron, Were you planning on installing a 230 kv transformer in your craft? This stuff is for those big connectors that weld themselves shut when shorted. A dab of dielectric grease will do the same if needed for small applications like ours. From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 6:06 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: What's thoughts on Cool Amp? Anyone have any thoughts on using Cool Amp on buss and other high amperage connections? http://www.cool-amp.com/ It is a wipe on with damp cloth application. Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 06, 2009
Subject: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?
From: rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US
Hi longg "Were you planning on installing a 230 kv transformer in your craft? This > stuff is for those big connectors that weld themselves shut when > shorted. A dab of dielectric grease will do the same if needed for small > applications like ours." No the 230kv transformer will be used on my next flying project which will need to transform the tremendous amount of power coming out of next generation breadbox sized fuel cells! You refered to the wrong product I had in mind. I wanted to know about using the silver plating powder called: Cool-Amp Silver Plating Powder Part #1233-500 that can be used in situation for increasing conductivity and help keep copper from corroding. Specific it is intended for: Cool-Amp Can Be Used On: Bus Bars - Cable Terminals - Current Transformers - Terminals - Clamps & Fittings Other Uses Include: Ham Radios - PCBs - Welders - Musical Instruments When used on PCBs I think it not only helps copper from corroding, but will help with high frequency transmissions. See: http://www.cool-amp.com/cool-amp.html Specific I was interested in using it for a connections in picture #28 and #31: http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album266&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php My friend has some Amp cool that he will lend me. Anyone have any comments on soldering to a silver plated piece of copper? If I were to do so, would it be worht it to use this solder from mcMaster that has a lower than 63-37 melting point (354F): Tin/Lead/Silver/Antimony with Rosin Flux Composed of 62% tin, 35.75% lead, 2% silver, and 0.25% antimony. For use on silver-plated surfaces and heat-sensitive components and near previously soldered joints. You were talking about : Conducto-Lube Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Allen Fulmer" <afulmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: Will other wiring interfere with Magnetometer?
Date: Jan 06, 2009
Thank you, Bob! That will be easy to do now as I am just pulling wires. Stein Air has a two conductor shielded cable: MIL-27500 Tefzel AWG22 - 2 Conductor Shielded Cable Would this be "the best" even if a little more expensive? (LED Nav lights only draw .3 amp or so per wing.) And if shielded is fine then ground one end of the shield at forest of tabs on firewall? Thanks again for all you do for us. Allen Fulmer >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >>>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On >>>Behalf Of Robert >>>L. Nuckolls, III >>>Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 9:26 AM >>>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >>>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Will other wiring interfere with >>>Magnetometer? >>> >>> >>>Nuckolls, III" >>> >>>At 07:49 AM 1/6/2009, you wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>Okay, so it would be okay to run all the wires and cables >>>thorough the same >>>>conduit but the current carrying ones "(such as navigation >>>or landing light >>>>wires)" would still need to pass at least 12" from the magnetometer. >>>> >>>>With the magnetometer 18" forward of the rear spar (and >>>thus the aileron >>>>steel mass balance tube) the wires for Nav and strobes will >>>have to be >>>>routed 12" forward of that on their way to forward end of >>>wingtip. That >>>>should be consistent with Bob Archer's antenna design. >>> >>> >>> Magnetometer installation is a good example of >>> a case where careful paralleling and perhaps >>> twisting of outbound/return current paths as they >>> pass by the magnetometer. I had a builder who >>> reported a compass swing of several degrees when >>> he turned on nav lights. Seems he grounded the lamp >>> locally and had a single power lead running only >>> a few inches from the remote compass sensor. >>> >>> He fixed the problem by running a twisted pair >>> for power and ground past the compass sensor. >>> Strobe and antenna wiring generally have no risk >>> to magnetometer calibration. >>> >>> Only those bundles/wires with significant unidirectional >>> DC currents flowing in them have a potential for >>> problems. Of course, DISTANCE is also a strong >>> attenuator of magnetic effects. I forget the >>> exact relationship but I'm thinking that effects >>> of a wire at 1" are reduced by a factor of more >>> than 100 at 10". >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Bob . . . >>> >>> ----------------------------------------) >>> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) >>> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) >>> ( appearance of being right . . . ) >>> ( ) >>> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) >>> ---------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Pengilly" <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Subject: Will other wiring interfere with Magnetometer?
Date: Jan 06, 2009
Allen, A few years ago I worked on an airplane that was the first of type to have a magnetic anomaly detector in the fuselage. The thing could cope with constant magnetic fields - that is circuits that were always on or off, but not with variable ones. We learnt that shielded wires have no effect on the magnetic influence of current carrier, and that a simple twisted pair is by far better (I think the reason why was explained on the list a week or two ago). So don't bother with the shielded wire, just twist up a pair of 22g wires yourself - something like 5 to 10 twists per foot should be adequate. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Allen Fulmer Sent: 06 January 2009 18:05 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Will other wiring interfere with Magnetometer? Thank you, Bob! That will be easy to do now as I am just pulling wires. Stein Air has a two conductor shielded cable: MIL-27500 Tefzel AWG22 - 2 Conductor Shielded Cable Would this be "the best" even if a little more expensive? (LED Nav lights only draw .3 amp or so per wing.) And if shielded is fine then ground one end of the shield at forest of tabs on firewall? Thanks again for all you do for us. Allen Fulmer >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >>>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On >>>Behalf Of Robert >>>L. Nuckolls, III >>>Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 9:26 AM >>>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >>>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Will other wiring interfere with >>>Magnetometer? >>> >>> >>>Nuckolls, III" >>> >>>At 07:49 AM 1/6/2009, you wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>Okay, so it would be okay to run all the wires and cables >>>thorough the same >>>>conduit but the current carrying ones "(such as navigation >>>or landing light >>>>wires)" would still need to pass at least 12" from the magnetometer. >>>> >>>>With the magnetometer 18" forward of the rear spar (and >>>thus the aileron >>>>steel mass balance tube) the wires for Nav and strobes will >>>have to be >>>>routed 12" forward of that on their way to forward end of >>>wingtip. That >>>>should be consistent with Bob Archer's antenna design. >>> >>> >>> Magnetometer installation is a good example of >>> a case where careful paralleling and perhaps >>> twisting of outbound/return current paths as they >>> pass by the magnetometer. I had a builder who >>> reported a compass swing of several degrees when >>> he turned on nav lights. Seems he grounded the lamp >>> locally and had a single power lead running only >>> a few inches from the remote compass sensor. >>> >>> He fixed the problem by running a twisted pair >>> for power and ground past the compass sensor. >>> Strobe and antenna wiring generally have no risk >>> to magnetometer calibration. >>> >>> Only those bundles/wires with significant unidirectional >>> DC currents flowing in them have a potential for >>> problems. Of course, DISTANCE is also a strong >>> attenuator of magnetic effects. I forget the >>> exact relationship but I'm thinking that effects >>> of a wire at 1" are reduced by a factor of more >>> than 100 at 10". >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Bob . . . >>> >>> ----------------------------------------) >>> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) >>> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) >>> ( appearance of being right . . . ) >>> ( ) >>> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) >>> ---------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 06, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?
At 05:05 PM 1/5/2009, you wrote: >Anyone have any thoughts on using Cool Amp on buss and other high >amperage connections? > ><http://www.cool-amp.com/>http://www.cool-amp.com/ > >It is a wipe on with damp cloth application. There's a host of elixers and potions intended to improve the quality of electrical connections . . . particularly those that are not permanently gas-tight (soldered/crimped). A few examples . . . http://www.stabilant.com.au/body_what_is_stabilant_22_.html http://urgentcomm.com/mag/radio_electrical_contact_enhancer/ http://www.dedicatedaudio.com/inc/sdetail/19153 http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue17/xtremequicksilver.htm http://www.deoxit.com/ Each of these products claims some capabilities to remove impediments to good connection (corrosion/ contaminants), fill the voids between mating surfaces with some conductor usually in liquid suspension of some kind (silver flakes?), finally some feature that protects a made up joint from environmental attack. We had a processes guru look at several products while I was a Beech years ago. Most of the products evaluated went to failures of manufacturing process. Consistency of manufacturing process is one of the reasons that crimped joints won out over soldered joints. I forget how many different products were looked at but in the final analysis, the legacy processes that had evolved over decades of military and type certified experience was shown not to benefit from any of magic juices. I guess there was one exception . . . the Stabilant 22 was evaluated by our brothers at Raytheon Mass and found useful for the rapidly disappearing gold fingers on card edges which were never very popular with the aircraft guys. Short answer is if the pieces are clean and then joined up gas-tight, there's no need for further treatment. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 06, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Ground Power
At 07:24 PM 1/3/2009, you wrote: >Bob, there's been some discussion on ground power setup over on the >VAF list, and there's an issue that has come up that needs your sage advise. > >My design is based on a modified version of the one you have >published (I use the milspec plug and add an over-ride so that I can >force power out of the connector as well). Another builder has a >different design that feeds the electrical system after the master >contactor (not directly to the battery): See ><http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/90Electrical/RV10WireBookPage2.pdf>http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/90Electric...eBookPage2.pdf. > >I contend that if he has a dead battery, he cannot charge it with >ground power, or even with a running engine. In my opinion, this >defeats one of the purposes of ground power, which is jump-starting >an aircraft with a dead battery. Since you can't fly without >electrical power (usually). He claims that this is the way Cessna >does it, and maybe they think that if you have a dead battery, you >should charge it with a proper charger rather than jumpstarting and >using your (overstressed) alternator to do the job for you. > >What are your thoughts on this? It's a toss up. It's being done both ways on TC aircraft since day one. All biz-jets at H-B can be operated from ground power with the battery switch off. The architecture described in your cited link was crafted by someone who marches to his/her own drum. Set up your own design goals and drive toward them. When I crafted . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf I was coming from a background of having a line boy hitting my 14v airplane with a 28v ground power cart. That got me to thinking about the fact that the C172XP offered no way for the pilot to have absolute control over external power. It also occurred to me that I could be hit with a reversed polarity. I wanted to KNOW when ground power was available before it was actually connected to the airplane. Ov protection was a pretty good thing too. Finally, I wanted to charge a battery externally without powering up the whole airplane. The architecture you cited was crafted to different goals. I'm mildly curious as to why the fuses were added . . . but then, one builder's goals are another builder's conundrum. The lesson to be learned here that ANY architecture crafted to rational design goals is fine. The risks are that some features are driven my irrational concerns. Other features may be driven by incorrect deductions. Nobody's rationale is "golden". Decide what you want to do, make it happen and understand its limitations. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Johnson" <pinetownd(at)volcano.net>
Subject: Fuel pressure sender testing
Date: Jan 06, 2009
Hi Sheldon, Take another look at the EIS instruction manual, including any documentation you got with the fuel pressure sensor itself. You need to change the offset value (I think, it's been two years since I did this) in order to get a zero psi when there is no pressure. It's in the instruction manual, but you may have to hunt for it. You can also call EIS; they have always been eager to help whenever I called. Good luck, Dennis ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Allen Fulmer" <afulmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: Will other wiring interfere with Magnetometer?
Date: Jan 06, 2009
Thank you Peter. Easier still!! >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >>>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On >>>Behalf Of Peter >>>Pengilly >>>Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 12:35 PM >>>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >>>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Will other wiring interfere with >>>Magnetometer? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Allen, >>> >>>A few years ago I worked on an airplane that was the first >>>of type to have a >>>magnetic anomaly detector in the fuselage. The thing could cope with >>>constant magnetic fields - that is circuits that were always >>>on or off, but >>>not with variable ones. We learnt that shielded wires have >>>no effect on the >>>magnetic influence of current carrier, and that a simple >>>twisted pair is by >>>far better (I think the reason why was explained on the list >>>a week or two >>>ago). So don't bother with the shielded wire, just twist up >>>a pair of 22g >>>wires yourself - something like 5 to 10 twists per foot >>>should be adequate. >>> >>>Peter >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >>>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On >>>Behalf Of Allen >>>Fulmer >>>Sent: 06 January 2009 18:05 >>>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >>>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Will other wiring interfere with >>>Magnetometer? >>> >>> >>> >>>Thank you, Bob! >>> >>>That will be easy to do now as I am just pulling wires. >>> >>>Stein Air has a two conductor shielded cable: MIL-27500 >>>Tefzel AWG22 - 2 >>>Conductor Shielded Cable >>> >>>Would this be "the best" even if a little more expensive? >>>(LED Nav lights >>>only draw .3 amp or so per wing.) >>> >>>And if shielded is fine then ground one end of the shield at >>>forest of tabs >>>on firewall? >>> >>>Thanks again for all you do for us. >>> >>>Allen Fulmer >>> >>>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >>>>>>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On >>>>>>Behalf Of Robert >>>>>>L. Nuckolls, III >>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 9:26 AM >>>>>>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >>>>>>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Will other wiring interfere with >>>>>>Magnetometer? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Nuckolls, III" >>>>>> >>>>>>At 07:49 AM 1/6/2009, you wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Okay, so it would be okay to run all the wires and cables >>>>>>thorough the same >>>>>>>conduit but the current carrying ones "(such as navigation >>>>>>or landing light >>>>>>>wires)" would still need to pass at least 12" from the >>>magnetometer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>With the magnetometer 18" forward of the rear spar (and >>>>>>thus the aileron >>>>>>>steel mass balance tube) the wires for Nav and strobes will >>>>>>have to be >>>>>>>routed 12" forward of that on their way to forward end of >>>>>>wingtip. That >>>>>>>should be consistent with Bob Archer's antenna design. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Magnetometer installation is a good example of >>>>>> a case where careful paralleling and perhaps >>>>>> twisting of outbound/return current paths as they >>>>>> pass by the magnetometer. I had a builder who >>>>>> reported a compass swing of several degrees when >>>>>> he turned on nav lights. Seems he grounded the lamp >>>>>> locally and had a single power lead running only >>>>>> a few inches from the remote compass sensor. >>>>>> >>>>>> He fixed the problem by running a twisted pair >>>>>> for power and ground past the compass sensor. >>>>>> Strobe and antenna wiring generally have no risk >>>>>> to magnetometer calibration. >>>>>> >>>>>> Only those bundles/wires with significant unidirectional >>>>>> DC currents flowing in them have a potential for >>>>>> problems. Of course, DISTANCE is also a strong >>>>>> attenuator of magnetic effects. I forget the >>>>>> exact relationship but I'm thinking that effects >>>>>> of a wire at 1" are reduced by a factor of more >>>>>> than 100 at 10". >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Bob . . . >>>>>> >>>>>> ----------------------------------------) >>>>>> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) >>>>>> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) >>>>>> ( appearance of being right . . . ) >>>>>> ( ) >>>>>> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) >>>>>> ---------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 07, 2009
Subject: Re: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?
From: rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US
Hi Bob Thx. for the reply. "> Short answer is if the pieces are clean and then joined > up gas-tight, there's no need for further treatment." Keeping my parts clean and creating an absolute gas tight seal using 6-32 screws to hold components together I think can be a challenge. The product I spoke of is simple pure silver plating. Do you see a problem depositing about 1/10,000 inch of pure silver on the areas of buss bar where it will meet tin plated terminals? Do you see a problem depositing about 1/10,000 inch of pure silver on the areas of my .032" thick and .75" wide thin wire where it meet silver plated copper buss? Do you see a problem depositing about 1/10,000 inch of pure silver on theinside of my buss bypass (picture #31) so it will be ready to crimp, then solder to copper clad #4 aluminium wire? See pictures #31 to #34: http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album266&id=bb8&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php I fooled with soldering to silver plated copperand brass with 60-40 and 63-37 and it works great. I want to try a silver bearing solder: Tin/Lead/Silver/Antimony with Rosin Flux— Composed of 62% tin, 35.75% lead, 2% silver, and 0.25% antimony. For use on silver-plated surfaces and heat-sensitive components and near previously soldered joints. Meets Fed. Spec. QQ-S-571E and J-STD-006. this solder has a lower melting point than 63-37, and I believe becauers it has some silver, it will be easier on silver plating?? Whats your thought on using this solder on silver plating? I think it will also be good for soldering surface mounted components that I need to do on occasion?It is 5 core rosin flux solder part # 7687A63 from McMaster. Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 07, 2009
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?
rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US wrote: > Do you see a problem depositing about 1/10,000 inch of pure silver on > the areas of buss bar where it will meet tin plated terminals? > No. And there is also no problem with spitting on it and polishing it with your shirt tail. They have the same efficacy, BTW. > > Do you see a problem depositing about 1/10,000 inch of pure silver on > the inside of my buss bypass (picture #31) so it will be ready to > crimp, then solder to copper clad #4 aluminium wire? > Polishing with a bit of 180 grit sandpaper or a pencil eraser would be a better prep for crimping and soldering. What is 1/10,00 of an inch of pure anything supposed to do for you? The copper is still showing through, so you haven't sealed it from environmental oxygen. Soldering is an exercise is dissolving some lead/tin alloy in with the surface of copper. Your 1/10,000" layer of silver just becomes part of the mix. A little flux on the copper before the soldering is going to do more for you and an permeable layer of silver dust. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Using TurboCad
From: "n85ae" <n85ae(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 07, 2009
I use plain old graph paper, with a sharp pencil, and a ruler and some symbol templates and draw electrical drawings REALLY fast! :) Spend more time trying to get software installed and running on my PC, let alone the learning curve to use them, than I can pencil out a light airplane electrical system by hand. Regards, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223341#223341 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Re: Using TurboCad
Date: Jan 07, 2009
Thanks Jeff, I've been making some headway with TurboCad, but considering the time and frustration level, may go back to paper too. Some entrepreneurial type may want to develop a very simple cad program for homebuilders including preloaded drawings and symbols. Bevan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 7:49 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Using TurboCad I use plain old graph paper, with a sharp pencil, and a ruler and some symbol templates and draw electrical drawings REALLY fast! :) Spend more time trying to get software installed and running on my PC, let alone the learning curve to use them, than I can pencil out a light airplane electrical system by hand. Regards, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223341#223341 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vern Little" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net>
Subject: Re: Using TurboCad
Date: Jan 07, 2009
Bevan, have you tried expressPCB's schematic program? It's easy to learn and free. Here's a link to get you started, including my RV-9A schematic http://vx-aviation.com/#Free%20Stuff Vern ----- Original Message ----- From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 9:26 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Using TurboCad > > > Thanks Jeff, > > I've been making some headway with TurboCad, but considering the time and > frustration level, may go back to paper too. Some entrepreneurial type > may > want to develop a very simple cad program for homebuilders including > preloaded drawings and symbols. > > Bevan > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae > Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 7:49 AM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Using TurboCad > > > I use plain old graph paper, with a sharp pencil, and a ruler and some > symbol templates and draw electrical drawings REALLY fast! :) > > Spend more time trying to get software installed and running on my PC, let > alone the learning curve to use them, than I can pencil out a light > airplane > electrical system by hand. > > Regards, > Jeff > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223341#223341 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 07, 2009
Subject: Re: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?
From: rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US
Hi Ernest Thx. for the reply ">> Do you see a problem depositing about 1/10,000 inch of pure silver on >> the areas of buss bar where it will meet tin plated terminals? >> > No. And there is also no problem with spitting on it and polishing it > with your shirt tail. They have the same efficacy, BTW." "The copper is still showing through, so you haven't sealed it from environmental oxygen." The pictures from the I-Phone did not do a very good job taking picture of a shiny object. There is no copper showing through, the silver in fact completely covered the copper. Copper in fact does corrode into a non conductive surface. Silver does not oxidize but will react with sulfides in the air and form silver sulfide, which is a bit unsightly, but none the less conductive. Why are terminals, terminal blocks and terminal block hardware plated? Are you saying that we would be just as well off using lets say ring terminals with no plating, just pure copper and sand contact area before application with 180 grit sandpaper, and the 180 grit sand marks are going to go away because you are going to tighten and mush both surfaces together with no chance that there are areas where the sand marks will allow corrosion to occur and creep into airtight sealed areas?? It's just a matter it's a greater amount of work to sand each contact area? Trying to understand. Sincerely Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com>
Subject: Re: Using TurboCad
Date: Jan 07, 2009
I think the simplest program to use for diagramming might be Microsoft's Visio, but it's not cheap. I have been using CAD full-time for over 25 years and I know I could sketch out a diagram faster with pencil and paper, but I would use CAD to make it legible and presentable, just like Bob N. does. Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of B Tomm Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 9:27 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Using TurboCad Thanks Jeff, I've been making some headway with TurboCad, but considering the time and frustration level, may go back to paper too. Some entrepreneurial type may want to develop a very simple cad program for homebuilders including preloaded drawings and symbols. Bevan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 7:49 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Using TurboCad I use plain old graph paper, with a sharp pencil, and a ruler and some symbol templates and draw electrical drawings REALLY fast! :) Spend more time trying to get software installed and running on my PC, let alone the learning curve to use them, than I can pencil out a light airplane electrical system by hand. Regards, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223341#223341 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: SD-8 self excitation
Date: Jan 07, 2009
From: Etienne Phillips <etienne.phillips(at)gmail.com>
Sorry, was not on the planet for a month, and missed this! After my own investigation, it seems as though the recently produced regulators are still in need of the work around. I started the engine, and engaged the alternator with the battery offline, and nothing happened. Engaged the battery momentarily, and the alternator supplied the whole electrical system with a sweet 14V from that point on, until the engine was stopped. Again, once the engine was started again the alternator circuit didn't supply power until the battery gave it a jolt. Just to make sure, once the alternator is delivering power, I can remove the battery from the circuit and it continues delivering power quite happily. It's only a once-off initialisation that's needed to get the regulator up and running... Thanks Etienne On 16 Dec 2008, at 4:00 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 12:02 PM 12/15/2008, you wrote: >> >> >> Any response? > > Not that I've heard. I don't think B&C has a circuit > designer any more. If they were interested in the > upgrade I think they would have to farm it out. > > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------) > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > ---------------------------------------- > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Using TurboCad
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jan 07, 2009
> Bevan, have you tried expressPCB's schematic program? > It's easy to learn and free. > Here's a link to get you started, including my RV-9A schematic > http://vx-aviation.com/#Free%20Stuff > Vern I have to admit that Vern is right. ExpressPCB is stone simple and furthermore send nets and components onto the ExpressPCB PCB program (if you use it for that). I don't think it can be used to down load Z-Diagrams or components, but it is still very simple to learn and very powerful. See: http://www.expresspcb.com/ExpressPCBHtm/Free_cad_software.htm -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223376#223376 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Re: Using TurboCad
Date: Jan 07, 2009
Thanks Vern, Looks very easy to use. I made some good headway last night with TurboCad. Pencil and paper hasn't been ruled out yet though. The thing is Bob's drawing 13/8 is very close to what I want to do. All I need to do is modify it to suit. Bevan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vern Little Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 10:08 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Using TurboCad --> Bevan, have you tried expressPCB's schematic program? It's easy to learn and free. Here's a link to get you started, including my RV-9A schematic http://vx-aviation.com/#Free%20Stuff Vern ----- Original Message ----- From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 9:26 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Using TurboCad > > > Thanks Jeff, > > I've been making some headway with TurboCad, but considering the time and > frustration level, may go back to paper too. Some entrepreneurial type > may > want to develop a very simple cad program for homebuilders including > preloaded drawings and symbols. > > Bevan > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae > Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 7:49 AM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Using TurboCad > > > I use plain old graph paper, with a sharp pencil, and a ruler and some > symbol templates and draw electrical drawings REALLY fast! :) > > Spend more time trying to get software installed and running on my PC, let > alone the learning curve to use them, than I can pencil out a light > airplane > electrical system by hand. > > Regards, > Jeff > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223341#223341 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 07, 2009
From: "John McMahon" <blackoaks(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Calculating wire guage requirements
A simple question .... On a composite aircraft, with aft battery and a long run to a panel ground in front how much of the wire length is considered in determining wire size? Is it only the length from the buss to the unit to the ground point or must the length of the #2 welding wire from the ground point back to the battery be included in the calculation? If I've learned anything from the Connection and this List, I think that the #2 length would be excluded due to its much greater capacity. Right or wrong? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 07, 2009
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?
rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US wrote: > > Hi Ernest > > Thx. for the reply > > ">> Do you see a problem depositing about 1/10,000 inch of pure silver on > >>> the areas of buss bar where it will meet tin plated terminals? >>> >>> >> No. And there is also no problem with spitting on it and polishing it >> with your shirt tail. They have the same efficacy, BTW." >> > > "The copper is still showing through, so you haven't sealed it from > environmental oxygen." > > The pictures from the I-Phone did not do a very good job taking picture of > a shiny object. There is no copper showing through, the silver in fact > completely covered the copper. > > Believe it or not, your iPhone most likely did a better job of showing the true state of affairs than your eyes 8*) Our eyes tend to spread shiny and make it appear to cover more area than it actually does. It's hard to "see through" the shiny. That's why we test the silver coat on our fabric with a light bulb. Make a sample of copper scrap, coated halfway along the length. Hang it in your shower or other hot/humid environment for a few months. If there is anything more than minor differences in the corrosion rate, I'll send you a new dollar. > Copper in fact does corrode into a non conductive surface. Silver does not > oxidize but will react with sulfides in the air and form silver sulfide, > which is a bit unsightly, but none the less conductive. > > Which would be a great argument for silver plating. Real silver plating. Where ALL the copper is protected, not just enough to fool the human eye into thinking that it is all covered. > Why are terminals, terminal blocks and terminal block hardware plated? > > It is cheap to have a machine do the plating in an industrial setting. Much cheaper than even a few returned items due to a Chinese subsistence day-laborers failing to tighten a screw properly. Much cheaper than having to have the day-laborer clean the contacts after they sat in a humid warehouse for several years. It is also prettier, and makes storage and future changes less problematic (ie, you don't have to clean the terminals every time you move wires around). Still, there is a big difference between a process controlled plating process, and wiping on some silver dust with a damp cloth. There is a lot of energy pumped into a plating machine to insure that the nickel is properly bonded to the copper. Where is the energy to make sure the silver dust bonds? > Are you saying that we would be just as well off using lets say ring > terminals with no plating, just pure copper and sand contact area before > application with 180 grit sandpaper, and the 180 grit sand marks are going > to go away because you are going to tighten and mush both surfaces > together with no chance that there are areas where the sand marks will > allow corrosion to occur and creep into airtight sealed areas?? It's just > a matter it's a greater amount of work to sand each contact area? > Yes. But it is no more work than wiping on the magic potion. Copper is soft, and mushes easily. Under the entire ring terminal, you only need as much surface area to be in intimate contact as the cross-sectional area of the wire to maintain the same line resistance. Remove a few properly torqued screw from plain copper ring terminals and see how much deformation there is. Hint: there' s a LOT. Also note how the area under the fastener is bright and shiny, while the outside edges are gunky and corroded. My rotary engine uses copper seals under banjo fittings, because it will deform and seal up air tight. Lycoming spark plugs use a copper washer for the same reason. No silver dust needed. Make no mistake. I don't think the silver dust will do any harm. But from my experience, I can't believe that it is more than a tedious exercise with no payback. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill" <docyukon(at)ptcnet.net>
Subject: Re: Using TurboCad
Date: Jan 07, 2009
Vern I downloaded expressSCH It looks like something I can handle. I also downloaded the symbols library, but am not able to open it. Tells me that I don't have a program associated with it. And it doesn't tell me what the format is. any ideas? Bill > > > Bevan, have you tried expressPCB's schematic program? > It's easy to learn and free. > > Here's a link to get you started, including my RV-9A schematic > http://vx-aviation.com/#Free%20Stuff > > Vern ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 07, 2009
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Re: Using TurboCad
Bill... It sounds like you are trying to open the symbols library and view the files from Windows...they should be accessed from within ExpressSCH, after you've started the program. However, if you really want to click on a symbol and THEN have that click open the program to view the symbol, you can set Windows Explorer up to do that through the Tools>Folder Options>File Types setting. Pick the file extension, and then assign the program that you want to work with it. Windows will then open the program first, then load the symbol. Now if you are using Vista (I don't), then ignore all of the above...it may be selectable as I stated, or may not. Harley ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bill wrote: > > Vern I downloaded expressSCH It looks like something I can handle. > I also downloaded the symbols library, but am not able to open it. > Tells me that I don't have a program associated with it. And it > doesn't tell me what the format is. any ideas? Bill > > >> >> >> Bevan, have you tried expressPCB's schematic program? >> It's easy to learn and free. >> >> Here's a link to get you started, including my RV-9A schematic >> http://vx-aviation.com/#Free%20Stuff >> >> Vern > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Agelesswings certifies that no virus is in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Using TurboCad
From: "Fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>
Date: Jan 08, 2009
I successfully downloaded express PCB, but am unable to find this symbols library to download. Can anybody help? Thanks, Deke docyukon(at)ptcnet.net wrote: > Vern I downloaded expressSCH It looks like something I can handle. I > also downloaded the symbols library, but am not able to open it. Tells me > that I don't have a program associated with it. And it doesn't tell me what > the format is. any ideas? Bill > > > > > Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223503#223503 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 08, 2009
From: Dale Rogers <dale.r(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Using TurboCad
Deke, It's a direct download link on Vern's freebee page. http://vx-aviation.com/#Free%20Stuff It's the line immediately below the link for ExpressPCB.com Right click on "Click here for a component library", then select "save to disk". It is a ".ZIP" file, so you need a program that unpacks Zip files. It used to be that WinDoze came with WinZip. Maybe it has to be purchase separately, now? I use PkZip. ** <http://vx-aviation.com/design/symbols.zip>*Dale R. COZY MkIV #0497 Ch. 12 * Fox5flyer wrote: > > I successfully downloaded express PCB, but am unable to find this symbols library to download. > Can anybody help? > Thanks, > Deke > > > docyukon(at)ptcnet.net wrote: > >> Vern I downloaded expressSCH It looks like something I can handle. I >> also downloaded the symbols library, but am not able to open it. Tells me >> that I don't have a program associated with it. And it doesn't tell me what >> the format is. any ideas? Bill >> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Jan 08, 2009
Silver plating copper is not a good idea. See: http://www.hmwire.com/plating.html from the site: Plating for Copper and Copper Alloys: Silver - ....When silver is plated over copper there can be an accelerated corrosion of the copper at pinholes or breaks in the silver plating. It is then susceptible to the formation of cuprous oxide when stored or used in a moist or high humidity environment. The corrosion is known as "red plague" and is identifiable by the presence of a brown-red powder deposit on the exposed copper...." -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223541#223541 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 08, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?
At 10:13 AM 1/8/2009, you wrote: > >Silver plating copper is not a good idea. See: > >http://www.hmwire.com/plating.html > >from the site: > >Plating for Copper and Copper Alloys: > >Silver - ....When silver is plated over copper there can be an >accelerated corrosion of the copper at pinholes or breaks in the >silver plating. It is then susceptible to the formation of cuprous >oxide when stored or used in a moist or high humidity environment. >The corrosion is known as "red plague" and is identifiable by the >presence of a brown-red powder deposit on the exposed copper...." Which goes back to the simple-idea of "gas tightness" in a fabricated joint. To get corrosion you need an ingress location for an oxidizer (usually atmospheric oxygen but there are thousands of other oxidizing agents) usually dissolved in moisture. ALL pre-treatments one might incorporate for the purpose improving quality/longevity of a joint become moot when you mash and/or amalgam the two materials to be joined such that oxidizers and moisture are physically excluded from entering the joint. Probably the best thing one could do with bolted joint of less than pristine surfaces is wipe some silicone grease on one of the mating surfaces before mating. Any voids in the joint due to surface irregularities are prevented from being antagonistic havens for bad karma. At the same time, any place the two materials have been extruded a single piece of material, the pressures involve will squirt the grease out like toothpaste. Again, goops and goos pre-joining cannot replace or even do much to enhance good craftsmanship and preparation in making up the connection. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MICHAEL LARKIN <mlas(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Using TurboCad
Date: Jan 08, 2009
To the new and first time builders: I had been out of the CAD world since college in the 80's and 90's. I would dabble with Auto-CAD when I had access. A few years ago I started to do panel layouts for builders and purchased Turbo-CAD. At the same time I was doing all my custom aircraft schematics with ECB, so I have used most of the programs that are being written about. Here is my take for what ever its worth. First i almost exclusively us CAD for 2D work, my ability in 3D is minimal. So for you accomplished 3D guys don't read any further. :) In order to use a CAD program efficiently you have to have a good foundation on how to setup the page to start with. Second you have to know how to use the tools available to you. It is very difficult to get anything useful out of Auto-CAD or Turbo CAD without taking a course or reading the book. What I'm saying is that it is not easy if you've never been exposed to this type of drawing. Now for ECB things are a bit easier. This is a simple program for doing 2D drawings. The program is very limited but I find it works well for wiring schematics. Its limited number of functions makes it easy to get a handle on using well. For the accomplished CAD person it is very slow when you are use to using some of the more complex tools. ECB also has limited ability on importing and exporting so building the library is much more time consuming. I would recommend ECB for the first timer and if you like, the transfer to Turbo-CAD is much easier after using ECB for a while. I hope this helps the first time builders out there. One last thing, Turbo CAD comes in many versions. Some are crap, for example TurboCAD ver.2 for MAC is junk. But ver.10 and above for the PC is very much like a high end CAD program. Mike Larkin On Jan 8, 2009, at 6:37 AM, Dale Rogers wrote: > > Deke, > > It's a direct download link on Vern's freebee page. > > http://vx-aviation.com/#Free%20Stuff > > It's the line immediately below the link for ExpressPCB.com > > Right click on "Click here for a component library", then select > "save to disk". > > It is a ".ZIP" file, so you need a program that unpacks Zip files. > It used to be that WinDoze came with WinZip. Maybe it has to be > purchase separately, now? I use PkZip. > ** <http://vx-aviation.com/design/symbols.zip>*Dale R. > COZY MkIV #0497 > Ch. 12 > * > > > Fox5flyer wrote: >> > >> >> I successfully downloaded express PCB, but am unable to find this >> symbols library to download. Can anybody help? >> Thanks, >> Deke >> >> >> docyukon(at)ptcnet.net wrote: >> >>> Vern I downloaded expressSCH It looks like something I can >>> handle. I also downloaded the symbols library, but am not able to >>> open it. Tells me that I don't have a program associated with it. >>> And it doesn't tell me what the format is. any ideas? >>> Bill >>> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 08, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?
>Yes. But it is no more work than wiping on the magic >potion. Copper is soft, and mushes easily. Under the entire ring >terminal, you only need as much surface area to be in intimate >contact as the cross-sectional area of the wire to maintain the same >line resistance. Remove a few properly torqued screw from plain >copper ring terminals and see how much deformation there is. Hint: >there' s a LOT. Also note how the area under the fastener is bright >and shiny, while the outside edges are gunky and corroded. My >rotary engine uses copper seals under banjo fittings, because it >will deform and seal up air tight. Lycoming spark plugs use a >copper washer for the same reason. No silver dust needed. > >Make no mistake. I don't think the silver dust will do any >harm. But from my experience, I can't believe that it is more than >a tedious exercise with no payback. YES! One of the points I hit on in the weekend seminars is the value of force/area=pressure where the act of tightening a nut down on a malleable copper terminal literally deforms the surface to achieve "oneness" between mating surfaces. I like to tie a ground terminal down to the airframe with no smaller than a 8-32 fastener having a metal locknut to keep the pressure high over the lifetime of the joint. Once the joint is properly made, the vulnerabilities of time and environment are at the parting line which is very small and offers little risk of being breached. These are cases where physically squashing two items into intimate contact with each other is a good thing. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: System recommendations
From: "jetech" <av8tor(at)hughes.net>
Date: Jan 08, 2009
I am looking at the Z-11 and Z-13 schematics and would like some opinions on which route to take. The plane is a PA-22, we would like to replace the vacuum driven horizon and compass along with the airspeed, T&B, rate of climb and altimeter with a Aspen PFD. We will add a GPS, transponder, and comm and retain the stock mechanical engine instruments, mags, mag switch and push to start. The generator will be replaced with a Plane Power SAL12-70 alternator and R1224 regulator. The starter will be replaced with a Skytec starter. The plane will be VFR but it would be nice to have the voltmeter, GPS, transponder, comm and maybe the PFD (even though it has an internal backup battery) on an E-bus. The Z-11 looks a little more practical for this application. Am I missing anything if I use the Z-11 and substitute the Plane Power Alternator/regulator circuit and use the Z-13 push to start? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223645#223645 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 09, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: System recommendations
At 09:15 PM 1/8/2009, you wrote: > >I am looking at the Z-11 and Z-13 schematics and would like some >opinions on which route to take. > >The plane is a PA-22, we would like to replace the vacuum driven >horizon and compass along with the airspeed, T&B, rate of climb and >altimeter with a Aspen PFD. > >We will add a GPS, transponder, and comm and retain the stock >mechanical engine instruments, mags, mag switch and push to start. > >The generator will be replaced with a Plane Power SAL12-70 >alternator and R1224 regulator. The starter will be replaced with a >Skytec starter. > >The plane will be VFR but it would be nice to have the voltmeter, >GPS, transponder, comm and maybe the PFD (even though it has an >internal backup battery) on an E-bus. > >The Z-11 looks a little more practical for this application. Am I >missing anything if I use the Z-11 and substitute the Plane Power >Alternator/regulator circuit and use the Z-13 push to start? Yes. But as along as you don't plan to have a vacuum pump on the engine, you might consider at least pre-wiring for the SD-8 alternator even if it's not installed immediately. This would make it easy to add later if you so desire. Where is the battery located in this aircraft? Have you started a list of electro-whizzies with some initial thoughts as to which bus those devices get power. Get copies of http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Load_Analysis/Blank_Form.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Load_Analysis/Beeline%20load_analysis.xls and start organizing your ideas according to bus structures. You don't need to have all the numbers for the boxes just yet. Just start the documents and have them to show that good tools and rationale planning are part of your project planning. Exactly what you choose to install for accessories has importance to us only if somebody on the list has a particular tid-bit of information germane to that equipment item. The things we can help with go to architecture, understanding and meeting design goals, and swapping detail features between the Z-figures (like the starter switch). I presume this aircraft is still under the jurisdiction of those who know more about airplanes than we do. A key task before you is to convince them that what you propose is (safe/legal/sane/holy-watered) as determined by someone who sits at a desk and will never see your airplane. Your Form 337 documentation can begin with citing observance of every pertinent paragraph out of AC43-13 (bureaucrats adore hearing litanies they wrote recited back to them). Beyond that, you'll need a narrative that describes the DIFFERENCES between what you propose and what was originally installed in words that convinces them that agreeing with you doesn't put their pension at risk. Be aware that you may be asked to do a max load, hot day Vy climb study on your alternator as installed with respect to cooling. If you'd like to use a REAL battery as opposed to some $high$ PMA'd battery, there will be a round of document sparing there too. Finally, your reviewers will have a great deal more confidence in their decision if the AI you're working with has a good working relationship, some past experience in vintage upgrades, and can explain things to the reviewers in words they're convinced they should understand. Having a professional looking wire book, an emergency procedures and instructions for continued airworthiness document will put icing on your document package. It may be that somebody somewhere has pulled off a similar upgrade to a venerable bird without so much fuss. Don't downgrade your efforts to match any such success story. Former 337 activities do constitute approved documents upon which future efforts can rely. However, there are plenty of individuals within any governing body who may find past achievements wanting for proper respect and demeanor and will require YOU to make up for it. I'm not suggesting that everyone within the FAA is running between blinders and/or not qualified at their jobs. But it only takes ONE detractor of MANY supporters to make your life difficult/ impossible. Task 1. Put your team together. Find an AI, write up a narrative of what you want to do to the airplane. Append your load analysis sheets to the back. Include a list of resources you will tap for support/consulting. This list should include AC43-13, Part 23, and Part 91. It probably wouldn't hurt to add the AeroElectric Connection and any other learned texts on the arts and crafts in your bibliography. I can provide a resume to support any citations you may make to my work. Now have your AI go to the cognizant offices of the FAA and build the regulatory side of your team. Get to know everybody on your team on a first name basis. Try to build a relationship that encourages friendly, open-channel communications so that you don't risk getting told, "No, you'll have to rip that out and do it over/different". I'd be pleased to help you craft the wire book and supporting documents. You have an opportunity to do TWO very important things here: (1) Upgrade this venerable old airplane to YOUR design goals that do not compromise utility and safety and . . . (2) Craft a 337 package that is so far above anything done in the past that YOUR project becomes the gold standard for others who have dreams for their own vintage aircraft. Your 337 package can become the cited reference as well as an example of format and content that will ease the way for those who come after you. If the project is successful, I'd encourage you to deposit the 337 package in any and all cooperating archives including the Short Wing Piper Club. AeroElectric.com would be pleased to be the first. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 09, 2009
Subject: Anyone using Kunzleman Taxi Recognition light?
From: rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US
Anyone using Kunzleman Taxi Recognition light? : http://www.kestrobes.com/beacon.htm#LL1 What's your observation / opinion? How did you heat sink the hockey puck? Do you have another cover, if so what did you do for cover? Specific I am interested in using on our Europa XS Monowheel. ( I could almost envision seeing these LEDs in the Airmaster spinner with some angled for taxi and some landing, sure you are wasting some light, but how kool! Airmaster are you listening?? ) Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 09, 2009
Subject: Anyone using Kunzleman Taxi Recognition light?
From: rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US
Hi Glen "What makes you think you need to heat sink this light? Surely not the 1.3 amps it's drawing?" Exactly it's the 1300mA draw! I didn't purchase yet. I did just today talk to the Mfg. and he said he recommends it be sunk to at least 60 square inches of aluminium. He said if it is in airstream it would probably sink enough, but if you left on in a hangar for 5 to 10 minutes you would damage. He said he has been working on a design for 3 years, his CNC aluminium housing works well to extract heat from the LEDs, but ya gotta get the heat out of the housing. Ron Parigoris I am thinking to mount on one of my outrigger fairing, just make at least the front out of aluminium with a 1/16" polycarbinate cover. As far as I am concerned, aluminium and fiberglass is a composite! ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Anyone using Kunzleman Taxi Recognition light?
Date: Jan 09, 2009
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
Yikes, Thanks Ron, it sounds like mounting it in the cowling inlet would be one way to go. With the Legacy you can't have little things sticking out or people talk funny about your airplane :) You could probably mount it in the cowl if you did a scat tube into the housing and protected the tube mount on cowling itself. I'll have to come up with a creative way to protect the mounting base such that excess heat does not pass through the housing mount to the fiberglass. I normally use the Click-Bond stud mounts for stuff like this. If I can find a way to insulate the stud from the housing mount, that should do it. Somewhere in industry there should exist insulated mounts for stuff like this. gl -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 1:05 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Anyone using Kunzleman Taxi Recognition light? Hi Glen "What makes you think you need to heat sink this light? Surely not the 1.3 amps it's drawing?" Exactly it's the 1300mA draw! I didn't purchase yet. I did just today talk to the Mfg. and he said he recommends it be sunk to at least 60 square inches of aluminium. He said if it is in airstream it would probably sink enough, but if you left on in a hangar for 5 to 10 minutes you would damage. He said he has been working on a design for 3 years, his CNC aluminium housing works well to extract heat from the LEDs, but ya gotta get the heat out of the housing. Ron Parigoris I am thinking to mount on one of my outrigger fairing, just make at least the front out of aluminium with a 1/16" polycarbinate cover. As far as I am concerned, aluminium and fiberglass is a composite! ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: System recommendations
From: "jetech" <av8tor(at)hughes.net>
Date: Jan 09, 2009
Bob I will look into the SD-8, It would be easy to pre-wire for it. The battery is located under the right front seat, it has local ground with a short lead. There is a electrical box under the front of the left seat that contains the start relay, some fuses and the push to start. Electro-whizzies, Well here is what I have so far, AeroElectric dimmer SSF-1 wig-wag LED map lights Some type of panel lighting Under the wing light Aft cabin lighting Intercom PFD GPS Comm X-ponder Alt warning lgt Upgraded ammeter As an A&P I haven't been very involved with electrical system design, I did design a system for a Warner Sporster but I wish I had found your site sooner, I think I would have done a better job. I would like to learn the correct approach to designing a system so I am here to learn. As far as design goals, This is our company airplane, It will be used to advertise our restoration abilities. Our main goal is to update it to current standards with the main focus being the interior and electrical system. This model didn't have much of an electrical system, it is pretty basic and I don't think I can add much more to it unless I convert the mechanical engine instruments to electrical. I had a hard time selling the idea of a PFD to my partner so he probably wont let me do that. Can you elaborate on the batter issue? It would be great to get rid of the PMA'd battery. I would like to make some real substantial alterations to the plane, something that hasn't been done yet. Two areas that could benefit are the combination nav lgt/dimmer switch and the fuel system with the aux fuel tank. The nav light can be fixed with a separate switch and dimmer. The fuel system can be fixed somewhat with Eddie Trimmers fuel system STC but it would be even better if the fuel transfer from the aux tank to the right wing tank was automatic without pilot intervention. Our company is a member of the short wing piper club and we have every intention of posting our paperwork there and anywhere else that has interest. I welcome your help and have already talked with a local EAA chapter about hosting you for a weekend. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223796#223796 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 09, 2009
Subject: D-Sub connectors
From: rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US
I think I remember reading that some use an addition to the screws to hold together D-Sub connectors? Is ther additional security that is recommended? Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 10, 2009
From: <ivor.phillips(at)ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: D-Sub connectors
Hi Ron The only D sub i decided was critical is the one for the trim tab motor, After fitting i used a large diameter Shrink tube to fully in case it, It easy to slice open if needed at a later date, regards Ivor ---- rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US wrote: > > > I think I remember reading that some use an addition to the screws to hold > together D-Sub connectors? > > Is ther additional security that is > recommended? > > Ron Parigoris > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 10, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: System recommendations
At 07:55 PM 1/9/2009, you wrote: > >Bob > >I will look into the SD-8, It would be easy to pre-wire for it. > >The battery is located under the right front seat, it has local >ground with a short lead. There is a electrical box under the front >of the left seat that contains the start relay, some fuses and the >push to start. Okay, this COULD continue to be a location for power distribution. How does your partner feel about modern fuse blocks? http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Fuses/Fuse_Holders/Fuse%20Holders.jpg These are inexpensive and have proven themselves as suited to task in what must now be thousands of OBAM aircraft. >Electro-whizzies, Well here is what I have so far, > >AeroElectric dimmer >SSF-1 wig-wag >LED map lights >Some type of panel lighting >Under the wing light >Aft cabin lighting >Intercom >PFD >GPS >Comm >X-ponder >Alt warning lgt >Upgraded ammeter > >As an A&P I haven't been very involved with electrical system >design, I did design a system for a Warner Sporster but I wish I had >found your site sooner, I think I would have done a better job. > >I would like to learn the correct approach to designing a system so >I am here to learn. >As far as design goals, This is our company airplane, It will be >used to advertise our restoration abilities. Our main goal is to >update it to current standards with the main focus being the >interior and electrical system. "Current standards" is a nebulous term . . . interpreted by most bureaucrats as "don't do it any different than BePiCesMo has been doing it for . . . oh let's say the past 30 years". Anything outside this box is viewed with anticipation of being able to bring a lot of regulatory "attention and assistance" to bear against your project. The regulators can get just as excited about being involved in something new as you are. What's more, they can demand a spot on your team whether you think you need it or not. Of course, all $time$ expended on their part is at taxpayer expense and they're not concerned with the cost additional $time$ levied on you. The problem with "updating" an aging aircraft hinges on whether you'll be allowed to do this as a 337 or be forced to do an STC. Now, a very well crafted and documented 337 can have all the appearances of an STC but without the burden of no-value-added qualification and piles of paper. There is a thing called a "one time STC" that accommodates an owner's desire and ability to accomplish a major modification to a TC aircraft without all the pomp and circumstance of a full-blown cert program. The one-time-STC cannot be sold. But I don't think it precludes the sharing of approved data for the purpose of accomplishing a similar process to another airplane. My personal idea of a cost effective flying machine is to de-certify a Pacer or Tri-Pacer, rip out all the electrical/instrumentation system. Rip out the back seat and install a baggage/cargo platform. Rip out the bench seat in front and install some nice buckets from a car. Install Z-13/8 with toggle switches, and fuse blocks. Maximize the numbers of instruments utilizing LCD displays. This means all new Tefzel wiring, modern RG battery - probably 17AH, modern alternator(s), switches, etc. >This model didn't have much of an electrical system, it is pretty >basic and I don't think I can add much more to it unless I convert >the mechanical engine instruments to electrical. I had a hard time >selling the idea of a PFD to my partner so he probably wont let me do that. Okay, doesn't sound like your project is a candidate for the modification(s) I described above - a 100% change-out for modern architecture and components. >Can you elaborate on the batter issue? It would be great to get rid >of the PMA'd battery. > >I would like to make some real substantial alterations to the plane, >something that hasn't been done yet. Two areas that could benefit >are the combination nav lgt/dimmer switch and the fuel system with >the aux fuel tank. While these are useful modifications, I would classify them as detailed enhancements to an existing system. >The nav light can be fixed with a separate switch and dimmer. The >fuel system can be fixed somewhat with Eddie Trimmers fuel system >STC but it would be even better if the fuel transfer from the aux >tank to the right wing tank was automatic without pilot intervention. This implies some degree of automation which usually calls for calibrated sensors to manage power to a transfer pump, warn against failed pumps and guard against stuck pumps that risk pumping fuel overboard. In the eyes of the FAA, this is a MAJOR system alternation that would cost more than the airplane is worth to get an STC on it. >Our company is a member of the short wing piper club and we have >every intention of posting our paperwork there and anywhere else >that has interest. Okay, this is where we need to synchronize visions of what the final product is going to look like. The original wiring in the airplane was mil-76 cotton over rubber, 7-strand wire. Even if the wire is still in good shape, it would be good to consider replacing all easily accessed runs with Tefzel. This is allowed under ordinary maintenance operations described in AC43-13. Replacement of funky 50's push-pull and rotary switches with modern toggles is also allowed as a maintenance item . . . especially if you use mil-spec hardware. Replacement of fuses and factory stock breakers is pretty much encouraged . . . again no questions asked if you use mil-spec hardware. Hanging PMA or TSO electronics on the panel using best shop practices is a no-brainer although I've heard that some FAA jurisdictions are requiring 337 forms to be submitted for accessory installations even if it's STC'ed. These used to be a log book entry only. Swapping out PMA junk batteries for modern SVLA devices, adding an e-bus, adding the SD-8 are ideas that will get somebody's shorts in a bunch somewhere. This is why I suggested that it was important to assemble a bottom-to-top team of folks and craft a detailed statement of work that the whole team understands and supports before you launch into the project. Many such projects have stalled when unforeseen "requirements" were discovered along the way. Delays and backtracking can become prohibitively expensive. Now, if you could only de-certify the airplane like in Canada . . . you could treat it like an RV7 and we could do some really good things for your airplane at a coat you're willing to support. >I welcome your help and have already talked with a local EAA chapter >about hosting you for a weekend. I'd be pleased to come share a weekend of airplane- speak with your friends. Let's work on it. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 10, 2009
From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: D-Sub connectors
rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US wrote: > I think I remember reading that some use an addition to the screws to > hold together D-Sub connectors? > > Is ther additional security that is recommended? > > Ron Parigoris If you're talking about a pair 'in line' that are just used as a splice point (wing/fuselage, etc) that you'll rarely or never open, you can just twist safety wire through the screw holes. I'd definitely do *something* to keep 'em closed. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 10, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: D-Sub connectors
At 08:36 AM 1/10/2009, you wrote: > > >rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US wrote: >>I think I remember reading that some use an addition to the screws >>to hold together D-Sub connectors? >> >>Is ther additional security that is recommended? >> >>Ron Parigoris > >If you're talking about a pair 'in line' that are just used as a >splice point (wing/fuselage, etc) that you'll rarely or never open, >you can just twist safety wire through the screw holes. > >I'd definitely do *something* to keep 'em closed. Intuitively on looks at those little 4-40 jackscrews and wonders if they're willing and able to stay put under the rigors of an aircraft (or any other vehicle) environment. As a matter of due diligence to legacy worries, we might figure out some way to safety these screws. As a matter of practice, I can tell you that they're used "barefoot" in a host of applications and I've never heard of one coming off. There is a certain springiness in the make-up of a d-sub jackscrew that prevents a sudden fall-off in rotational friction should the screw rotate slightly. I don't believe there's a significant risk for leaving these guys to their own devices for anti-loosening. All my new designs for D-Subs onto TC aircraft and target vehicles called out Positronic V-series slide locks for connector mateup retention. http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Connectors/Positronic/V3-VL_Latching.pdf The folks on the line REALLY liked these because you could mate-demate a D-Sub connector one-handed and without a screwdriver. Of course, this retaining methodology precluded loosening under vibration too. One thing you can ALWAYS do with any threaded fastener is coat the treads with some low durometer adhesive like RTV or E6000 before mating the threads. This contaminant in the threads adds considerable friction that will prevent a loosened screw from backing right out. But not so much retention that you can't open the joint for on-purpose reasons at a later time. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 10, 2009
From: "Sam Hoskins" <sam.hoskins(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: D-Sub connectors
I had two D-sub shells fall apart on me. I had purchased these from B&C. I had used the self-fusing silicone tape at the outlet and this required over tightening the screws to get the two sides to come together. Days later the plastic, under the screw heads, failed and two connectors fell apart. My fix will be to reduce the number of turns of fusing tape and to be careful not to over tighten (what ever that is) the screws. Sam On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 11:35 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> > > At 08:36 AM 1/10/2009, you wrote: > >> ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> >> >> rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US wrote: >> >>> I think I remember reading that some use an addition to the screws to >>> hold together D-Sub connectors? >>> >>> Is ther additional security that is recommended? >>> >>> Ron Parigoris >>> >> >> If you're talking about a pair 'in line' that are just used as a splice >> point (wing/fuselage, etc) that you'll rarely or never open, you can just >> twist safety wire through the screw holes. >> >> I'd definitely do *something* to keep 'em closed. >> > > Intuitively on looks at those little 4-40 jackscrews > and wonders if they're willing and able to stay put > under the rigors of an aircraft (or any other vehicle) > environment. > > As a matter of due diligence to legacy worries, we > might figure out some way to safety these screws. > As a matter of practice, I can tell you that they're > used "barefoot" in a host of applications and I've > never heard of one coming off. > > There is a certain springiness in the make-up of > a d-sub jackscrew that prevents a sudden fall-off > in rotational friction should the screw rotate > slightly. I don't believe there's a significant > risk for leaving these guys to their own devices > for anti-loosening. > > All my new designs for D-Subs onto TC aircraft and > target vehicles called out Positronic V-series > slide locks for connector mateup retention. > > http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Connectors/Positronic/V3-VL_Latching.pdf > > The folks on the line REALLY liked these because > you could mate-demate a D-Sub connector one-handed > and without a screwdriver. Of course, this retaining > methodology precluded loosening under vibration > too. > > One thing you can ALWAYS do with any threaded fastener > is coat the treads with some low durometer adhesive > like RTV or E6000 before mating the threads. This > contaminant in the threads adds considerable friction > that will prevent a loosened screw from backing right out. > But not so much retention that you can't open the > joint for on-purpose reasons at a later time. > > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------) > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > ---------------------------------------- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris" <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com>
Subject: Re: D-Sub connectors
Date: Jan 10, 2009
I have another D-Sub question... are the pin types with the u shaped cross section for crimping the wire and another section for crimping the wire ok to use - or is the solid pin type the norm? Thanks Chris Lucas RV-10 ----- Original Message ----- From: Sam Hoskins To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:07 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: D-Sub connectors I had two D-sub shells fall apart on me. I had purchased these from B&C. I had used the self-fusing silicone tape at the outlet and this required over tightening the screws to get the two sides to come together. Days later the plastic, under the screw heads, failed and two connectors fell apart. My fix will be to reduce the number of turns of fusing tape and to be careful not to over tighten (what ever that is) the screws. Sam On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 11:35 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: At 08:36 AM 1/10/2009, you wrote: rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US wrote: I think I remember reading that some use an addition to the screws to hold together D-Sub connectors? Is ther additional security that is recommended? Ron Parigoris If you're talking about a pair 'in line' that are just used as a splice point (wing/fuselage, etc) that you'll rarely or never open, you can just twist safety wire through the screw holes. I'd definitely do *something* to keep 'em closed. Intuitively on looks at those little 4-40 jackscrews and wonders if they're willing and able to stay put under the rigors of an aircraft (or any other vehicle) environment. As a matter of due diligence to legacy worries, we might figure out some way to safety these screws. As a matter of practice, I can tell you that they're used "barefoot" in a host of applications and I've never heard of one coming off. There is a certain springiness in the make-up of a d-sub jackscrew that prevents a sudden fall-off in rotational friction should the screw rotate slightly. I don't believe there's a significant risk for leaving these guys to their own devices for anti-loosening. All my new designs for D-Subs onto TC aircraft and target vehicles called out Positronic V-series slide locks for connector mateup retention. http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Connectors/Positronic/V3-VL_Latching.pd f The folks on the line REALLY liked these because you could mate-demate a D-Sub connector one-handed and without a screwdriver. Of course, this retaining methodology precluded loosening under vibration too. One thing you can ALWAYS do with any threaded fastener is coat the treads with some low durometer adhesive like RTV or E6000 before mating the threads. This contaminant in the threads adds considerable friction that will prevent a loosened screw from backing right out. But not so much retention that you can't open the joint for on-purpose reasons at a later time. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: System recommendations
From: "jetech" <av8tor(at)hughes.net>
Date: Jan 10, 2009
> Okay, this COULD continue to be a location for power > distribution. How does your partner feel about modern > fuse blocks? > > This box isn't very big but I was thinking of using it to house the battery contactor, main battery bus, and push to start. Fuse blocks would work the best is this location. > > The problem with "updating" an aging aircraft hinges on whether you'll be allowed to do this as a 337 or be forced to do an STC. Now, a very well crafted and documented 337 can have all the appearances of an STC but without the burden of no-value-added qualification and piles of paper.[quote] I agree, I would sure like to push it through as a 337. When you look at the the available previous 337 modifications you find there just isn't much out there for the PA-22. You have the standard things like sky lights, alternator, oil cooler and a host of other minor changes. Everyone seems content on flying with wires, switches and instruments that are 50 years or older. They keep patching up faulty, dirty worn out equipment while the OBAM crowd enjoys updated technology that is right up there with the heavy jets. I think great progress would be made for the short wing pipers if we could get paperwork through that allows a better than stock electrical system with features such as fuse blocks, e-bus, single point ground, etc. our plane doesn't have complex systems and isn't IFR but I think it is a good starting point to spur the interest of others. We probably don't need three buses but incorporating them into the system may help the next person with a full IFR panel and the desire to add more electro-whizzies. > This means all new Tefzel > wiring, modern RG battery - probably 17AH, modern > alternator(s), switches, etc. I already have the Tefzel in stock, the original harness is on the bench and will not go back in. > While these are useful modifications, I would classify them > as detailed enhancements to an existing system. Ok, I can live with detailed enhancements, any upgrade is a step forward. > This implies some degree of automation which > usually calls for calibrated sensors to manage > power to a transfer pump, warn against failed > pumps and guard against stuck pumps that > risk pumping fuel overboard. In the eyes of > the FAA, this is a MAJOR system alternation > that would cost more than the airplane is worth > to get an STC on it. I am sure you are correct on this. It would probably cause the local Fed's eyes to cage and a major short circuit to occur. Mostly wishful thinking. It would be nice to remove the electrical switch on the pull lever and just use an on/off switch, but then again a procedure would probably have to be written. Maybe a different type or design switch can be used in place of the original. > This is why I suggested that it was important to > assemble a bottom-to-top team of folks and craft > a detailed statement of work that the whole team > understands and supports before you launch > into the project. Ok, If I understand correctly, I should compose a basic concept, something not to left field but has a chance getting approved. Then maybe solicit comments, input from other short wing owners might be good. Gather support from the manufacturers whose products will be used. Sometime during the early stages meet with fSDO and sell the idea to them and ask for their participation. Once the concept becomes a plan submit the paperwork. What program do you use to draw your schematics? The local EAA will probably have their next meeting in Feb, I will ask the officers to present your services then and hopefully there will be a large interest. My company has offered to co-host with the EAA. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223950#223950 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 90 degree backshell
From: "Jim Berry" <jimberry(at)qwest.net>
Date: Jan 10, 2009
Does anyone have a source for a 90 degree backshell for a 62 pin high density d-sub connector ? Thanks Jim Berry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223953#223953 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: D-Sub connectors
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 10, 2009
Chris, the radio shack grade crimp connector pins/sockets are adequate IF you know exactly how to crimp them, i.e., use the correct wire with the correct insulation thickness, the right tooling dies for the wire and insulation, trim the insulation to exact spec, and use a ratchet cycle tool which has been recently calibrated. Short of that, some of your crimps will, under use, pull free. I've been make wire connections for more than 40 years and I can attest to the above. The best solution is to use a mil spec crimper (octa-dent) like a Daniels on machined solid connection pins. These kits can usually found at SnF or Oshkosh. Just make sure you get the proper positioner/die for the wire gauge/insulation you are using. Some positioner heads are adjustable for different wire gauge and insulation thickness Failing that, you want to continue to use the cheap stamped crimps, I'd advise you to solder the wire connection after crimping. Be careful not to get solder on the retention springs that hold the pin in its connector frame -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223969#223969 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Allen Fulmer" <afulmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: Multiple coax in same conduit
Date: Jan 10, 2009
Bob, Is it okay to run two or more coax in same plastic conduit? Thanks, Allen Fulmer RV7 Wiring/Plumbing ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 10, 2009
From: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: D-Sub connectors
If we're talking about mating two D-sub connectors together, I just push 'em together and use a couple of small zip ties through the screw holes to keep them from separating. This after not installing the thumb screws in the hoods or even if I just covered the connectors with heat shrink instead of using hoods. I suppose that if you're worried about hoods falling off the D-sub (which I've never seen happen), you could replace the screws with zip ties though the screw holes and around the hood. Pax, Ed Holyoke rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US wrote: > I think I remember reading that some use an addition to the screws to > hold together D-Sub connectors? > > Is ther additional security that is recommended? > > Ron Parigoris > > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: System recommendations
From: "Leo Holler" <leoh(at)gci.net>
Date: Jan 11, 2009
Am in the middle of a redesign/rewire (Z-11) for a PA-22/20. After di-secting the old push button starter, I decided I'd never want it as part of my circuitry again. The PA-22 (mine, anyway) did not have a starter contactor, so contact was only as fast as my finger could close the gap. The degraded condition of the contacts suggested that wasn't fast enough. Adding that problem to the problematic long length of the cable from the bottom right seat area to the starter button and then on to the starter and I finally knew why my starter never exibited any signs of glee when I mashed the button. I had already planned to replace the old starter button with a starter contactor (available reasonably at B&C or elsewhere) and a small dash mounted button. For the money, I'd recommend that change to you as well and for sure consider what Bob has suggested about the old battery. My old style is going away and will be replaced with a new any position battery; it will be located in the left boot cowl area with access via a door on the boot cowl. Am still in the design stage for the mount. Good luck on your changes. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224008#224008 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Multiple coax in same conduit
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 11, 2009
yes! -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224020#224020 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: System recommendations
From: "jetech" <av8tor(at)hughes.net>
Date: Jan 11, 2009
Hi Leo I haven't looked at the PTS button yet but I will now. We have a keyed switch but it is kind of nice to have the button under the seat, most people can't figure out how to start it. Good luck with your battery relocation. Do you have the stock starter, if so have you looked at a Sky-tec starter yet? A big improvement. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224030#224030 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Leikam" <daveleikam(at)wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: D-Sub connectors
Date: Jan 11, 2009
Can't small nuts be installed between the two screws similar to the connectors on the back of a computer to connect the monitor cable? Dave Leikam RV-10 #40496 N89DA (Reserved) Muskego, WI ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Holyoke To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 12:30 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: D-Sub connectors If we're talking about mating two D-sub connectors together, I just push 'em together and use a couple of small zip ties through the screw holes to keep them from separating. This after not installing the thumb screws in the hoods or even if I just covered the connectors with heat shrink instead of using hoods. I suppose that if you're worried about hoods falling off the D-sub (which I've never seen happen), you could replace the screws with zip ties though the screw holes and around the hood. Pax, Ed Holyoke rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US wrote: I think I remember reading that some use an addition to the screws to hold together D-Sub connectors? Is ther additional security that is recommended? Ron Parigoris href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 11, 2009
From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: D-Sub connectors
Can't small nuts be installed between the two screws similar to the connectors on the back of a computer to connect the monitor cable? Yes! Just one more way of holding them together. All depends on application and preference! Roger Dave Leikam RV-10 #40496 N89DA (Reserved) Muskego, WI ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Holyoke <mailto:bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 12:30 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: D-Sub connectors If we're talking about mating two D-sub connectors together, I just push 'em together and use a couple of small zip ties through the screw holes to keep them from separating. This after not installing the thumb screws in the hoods or even if I just covered the connectors with heat shrink instead of using hoods. I suppose that if you're worried about hoods falling off the D-sub (which I've never seen happen), you could replace the screws with zip ties though the screw holes and around the hood. Pax, ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 11, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: D-Sub connectors
At 07:19 PM 1/10/2009, you wrote: >I have another D-Sub question... are the pin types with the u shaped >cross section for crimping the wire and another section for crimping >the wire ok to use - or is the solid pin type the norm? >Thanks >Chris Lucas >RV-10 The sheet metal pins are very widely used throughout the electronics industry but are tricky to put on with consistency using el-cheeso hand-tools. Further, they're not the same grade of interconnect as the mil-spec style. I quit using the sheet metal pins here years ago and I recommend their use. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 11, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Multiple coax in same conduit
At 08:30 PM 1/10/2009, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Is it okay to run two or more coax in same plastic conduit? > >Thanks, Sure. No problem. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 11, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: D-Sub connectors
At 12:07 PM 1/10/2009, you wrote: >I had two D-sub shells fall apart on me. I had purchased these from B&C. > >I had used the self-fusing silicone tape at the outlet and this >required over tightening the screws to get the two sides to come >together. Days later the plastic, under the screw heads, failed and >two connectors fell apart. > >My fix will be to reduce the number of turns of fusing tape and to >be careful not to over tighten (what ever that is) the screws. The strain relief wraps of tape should be just snug in the backshell opening as you've discovered. An exemplar installation is illustrated on page 2 of this work instruction. http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9051/9051-700A.pdf Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 11, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: D-Sub connectors
At 12:30 AM 1/11/2009, you wrote: >If we're talking about mating two D-sub connectors together, I just >push 'em together and use a couple of small zip ties through the >screw holes to keep them from separating. This after not installing >the thumb screws in the hoods or even if I just covered the >connectors with heat shrink instead of using hoods. That works. I've also used a figure-8 wrap of safety wire or flat lace to bind the the two connectors together in lieu of jackscrews. >I suppose that if you're worried about hoods falling off the D-sub >(which I've never seen happen), you could replace the screws with >zip ties though the screw holes and around the hood. This was a case of over-stressing the hood material because the wire-support wrap was too fat. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: D-Sub connectors
Date: Jan 12, 2009
From: Etienne Phillips <etienne.phillips(at)gmail.com>
On 12 Jan 2009, at 4:21 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 07:19 PM 1/10/2009, you wrote: >> I have another D-Sub question... are the pin types with the u >> shaped cross section for crimping the wire and another section for >> crimping the wire ok to use - or is the solid pin type the norm? >> Thanks >> Chris Lucas >> RV-10 > > The sheet metal pins are very widely used throughout > the electronics industry but are tricky to put on with > consistency using el-cheeso hand-tools. Further, they're > not the same grade of interconnect as the mil-spec style. > I quit using the sheet metal pins here years ago > and I recommend their use. > > Bob . . . > I used the cheap stuff for my wiring project, due to the extra cost and time it would have taken to get hold of the machined pins (living on the dark continent puts access to anything but the cheap stuff on the other side of the planet, on the other side of a very large shipping fee, and on the other side of a very bad exchange rate). They're not critical to the correct operation of my electrical system, so continued to hack my way through. Many broken pins, snapped wires and sockets with stuck pins later, I finished and got everything working. But when time allows, I'm going to redo it all (using the CORRECT equipment and parts), because although it works for now, I don't think it'll last more than a couple of years in the high-vibration environment. Another frustration I had was once everything was crimped and all the pins were pushed into the sockets, the damned things wouldn't fit together! There is so much play within the support for the female pins, that it allows them to move out of alignment with their male counterparts. So don't waste your time and effort, do it right first time. The frustration of getting a crimp right using cheap tools and parts alone is enough to cover the outlay for the good stuff! Etienne ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 12, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: D-Sub connectors
At 11:53 PM 1/11/2009, you wrote: >On 12 Jan 2009, at 4:21 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > >>At 07:19 PM 1/10/2009, you wrote: >>>I have another D-Sub question... are the pin types with the u >>>shaped cross section for crimping the wire and another section for >>>crimping the wire ok to use - or is the solid pin type the norm? >>>Thanks >>>Chris Lucas >>>RV-10 >> >> The sheet metal pins are very widely used throughout >> the electronics industry but are tricky to put on with >> consistency using el-cheeso hand-tools. Further, they're >> not the same grade of interconnect as the mil-spec style. >> I quit using the sheet metal pins here years ago >> and I recommend their use. >> >> Bob . . . >I used the cheap stuff for my wiring project, due to the extra cost >and time it would have taken to get hold of the machined pins >(living on the dark continent puts access to anything but the cheap >stuff on the other side of the planet, on the other side of a very >large shipping fee, and on the other side of a very bad exchange >rate). They're not critical to the correct operation of my >electrical system, so continued to hack my way through. Many broken >pins, snapped wires and sockets with stuck pins later, I finished >and got everything working. But when time allows, I'm going to redo >it all (using the CORRECT equipment and parts), because although it >works for now, I don't think it'll last more than a couple of years >in the high-vibration environment. > >Another frustration I had was once everything was crimped and all >the pins were pushed into the sockets, the damned things wouldn't >fit together! There is so much play within the support for the >female pins, that it allows them to move out of alignment with their >male counterparts. > >So don't waste your time and effort, do it right first time. The >frustration of getting a crimp right using cheap tools and parts >alone is enough to cover the outlay for the good stuff! > >Etienne What you're describing is a case study in cost of ownership. A thought process I've tried to inject into many development programs over the years with limited but gratifying success. MOST of my contemporaries were not beneficiaries of the education one gets when as the ONLY electro-wiennie in the building, I tracked a product from conception all the way through prototype, meeting requirements milestones, customer approval, qualification, procurement, manufacturing, quality assurance, shipping, customer service and warranty. Without this broad perspective, it's difficult to see how the saving of a few dollars now can translate into greater expenditures when the end-to-end costs of the product are considered. Are there no in-country electronics distributors that offer low cost tools like: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/4-Quad/rct-3.jpg Surely many fellow citizens could benefit by a local business adding this product to their catalog. The machined pins can be breathtakingly priced in this country. Allied Electronics prices them at 52 cents each in their catalog and they drop only to 30 cents or so in 500 lots. My distributor will sell me a bag of 5,000 pins for about 15 cents each. Your local suppliers could offer these pins at pretty attractive prices if they shopped around a bit for sources. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Switch Combinations
Date: Jan 12, 2009
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
I am using Z13/8 with a dual EI (Lightspeed) setup. By default I have two ignition switches for L/R or front and back if you prefer. Since I am not using a keyway switch I am wondering if there is a way to wire a single switch to manage both EI's? My design goal is to eliminate additional switches where they can otherwise be combined. Glenn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "SteinAir, Inc." <stein(at)steinair.com>
Subject: D-Sub connectors
Date: Jan 12, 2009
Ditto...we won't use the stamped pins here either and we go through somewhere between 20,000 and 50,000 pins per month! There are a variety of reasons why not to use them, and only a very few that I can think of to use them (mainly that you can run them through a high speed automated crimper)...other than that, as long as you have to crimp them by hand, the machined pins are far easier. Cheers, Stein -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 8:22 PM To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: D-Sub connectors The sheet metal pins are very widely used throughout the electronics industry but are tricky to put on with consistency using el-cheeso hand-tools. Further, they're not the same grade of interconnect as the mil-spec style. I quit using the sheet metal pins here years ago and I recommend their use. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2009
Subject: Switch Combinations
Maybe but why would you want to use a single switch..You now have a critica l component that if it fails your engine will quit. I know that as the Plea d is a ground lead that this is unlikely (assuming the Lightspeed switches the same way a mag does) but even so why do it for the sake of another swit ch? FWIW. Frank ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr ic-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of longg(at)pjm.com Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 7:28 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Switch Combinations I am using Z13/8 with a dual EI (Lightspeed) setup. By default I have two i gnition switches for L/R or front and back if you prefer. Since I am not us ing a keyway switch I am wondering if there is a way to wire a single switc h to manage both EI's? My design goal is to eliminate additional switches w here they can otherwise be combined. Glenn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2009
Subject: D-Sub connectors
20 to 50k pins a month?..Wow!... Frank ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr ic-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of SteinAir, Inc. Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 7:42 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: D-Sub connectors Ditto...we won't use the stamped pins here either and we go through somewhe re between 20,000 and 50,000 pins per month! There are a variety of reason s why not to use them, and only a very few that I can think of to use them (mainly that you can run them through a high speed automated crimper)...oth er than that, as long as you have to crimp them by hand, the machined pins are far easier. Cheers, Stein ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Switch Combinations
Date: Jan 12, 2009
Glenn, Frank beat me to it. Keep your ignitions systems separate as much as possible. Bevan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of longg(at)pjm.com Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 7:28 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Switch Combinations I am using Z13/8 with a dual EI (Lightspeed) setup. By default I have two ignition switches for L/R or front and back if you prefer. Since I am not using a keyway switch I am wondering if there is a way to wire a single switch to manage both EI's? My design goal is to eliminate additional switches where they can otherwise be combined. Glenn ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: D-Sub connectors
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2009
One caveat about the machined (not stamped sheet metal) pins is that they are not interchangeable! Some submini D connector contacts will not fir the shell of other manufacturers. Also, different connectors pins for different wire size, i.e., 22 ga vs. 18ga. At least for the larger circular connector series from AMP or Amphenol, the pins are color coded with tiny bands. Of course the companies don't make it easy to discover the color code meanings! I've never seen a collated chart, even from a single manufacturer. If any has such a chart, I would love to see it. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224241#224241 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 12, 2009
From: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Switch Combinations]
Lightspeed EIs wire opposite the way magnetos do. It wires like most other electrical devices, ie: the switch breaks the 12v (+) side. Closed is on. If the switch fails to close, no spark. With a magneto, open is on. Closed grounds out the primary coil so it won't produce a spark out of the secondary coil. If the switch fails to close, the mag is hot even after being turned off. Danger Will Robinson. Be careful around the prop. Switch, wiring or fuse failures take out an electronic ignition (P-mag may be different). Switch or wire failures generally take out the ability to turn off a magneto. The failure modes of each should be considered carefully and designed for. I agree with Frank. It's a bad idea to have a setup where a failure of one switch would take out both ignitions. I don't like the key turn mag/start switches for that reason. I've seen several of them not work right, one right out of the box. Pax, Ed Holyoke Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: > Maybe but why would you want to use a single switch..You now have a > critical component that if it fails your engine will quit. I know that > as the Plead is a ground lead that this is unlikely (assuming the > Lightspeed switches the same way a mag does) but even so why do it for > the sake of another switch? > > FWIW. > > Frank > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *longg(at)pjm.com > *Sent:* Monday, January 12, 2009 7:28 AM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Switch Combinations > > I am using Z13/8 with a dual EI (Lightspeed) setup. By default I have > two ignition switches for L/R or front and back if you prefer. Since I > am not using a keyway switch I am wondering if there is a way to wire > a single switch to manage both EI's? My design goal is to eliminate > additional switches where they can otherwise be combined. > > > > > > Glenn > > * > > ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ics.com > .matronics.com/contribution > > * > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2009
Subject: Re: Switch Combinations]
Well in that case as the Lightspeed switch the hot connection I would sugge st combinging the switches is not quite suicidal but close! Switch goes open circuit (or intermittent) and your engine will quit...this is a very bad idea..Almost as bad as having a single fuse serving both ign itions..Don't do it! Both ignitions must be wired completely seperate...wiring, fuses, switches. Incidently the E/Pmags are wired like a regular mag, but I still switch the m seperate. Frank ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr ic-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 8:43 AM Subject: [Fwd: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch Combinations] Lightspeed EIs wire opposite the way magnetos do. It wires like most other electrical devices, ie: the switch breaks the 12v (+) side. Closed is on. I f the switch fails to close, no spark. With a magneto, open is on. Closed grounds out the primary coil so it won't produce a spark out of the secondary coil. If the switch fails to close, t he mag is hot even after being turned off. Danger Will Robinson. Be careful around the prop. Switch, wiring or fuse failures take out an electronic ignition (P-mag may be different). Switch or wire failures generally take out the ability to tu rn off a magneto. The failure modes of each should be considered carefully and designed for. I agree with Frank. It's a bad idea to have a setup where a failure of one switch would take out both ignitions. I don't like the ke y turn mag/start switches for that reason. I've seen several of them not wo rk right, one right out of the box. Pax, Ed Holyoke Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: Maybe but why would you want to use a single switch..You now have a critica l component that if it fails your engine will quit. I know that as the Plea d is a ground lead that this is unlikely (assuming the Lightspeed switches the same way a mag does) but even so why do it for the sake of another swit ch? FWIW. Frank ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com<mailto:owner-aeroelectri c-list-server(at)matronics.com> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matroni cs.com] On Behalf Of longg(at)pjm.com Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 7:28 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Switch Combinations I am using Z13/8 with a dual EI (Lightspeed) setup. By default I have two i gnition switches for L/R or front and back if you prefer. Since I am not us ing a keyway switch I am wondering if there is a way to wire a single switc h to manage both EI's? My design goal is to eliminate additional switches w here they can otherwise be combined. Glenn ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ics.com .matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 12, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Switch Combinations
At 09:27 AM 1/12/2009, you wrote: >I am using Z13/8 with a dual EI (Lightspeed) setup. By default I >have two ignition switches for L/R or front and back if you prefer. >Since I am not using a keyway switch I am wondering if there is a >way to wire a single switch to manage both EI's? My design goal is >to eliminate additional switches where they can otherwise be combined. Dual ignition offers true redundancy only if they are completely independent of each other. They should share a minimum amount of hardware . . . especially switches. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 12, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: D-Sub connectors
At 10:39 AM 1/12/2009, you wrote: > >One caveat about the machined (not stamped sheet metal) pins >is that they are not interchangeable! Some submini D connector >contacts will not fir the shell of other manufacturers. Also, different >connectors pins for different wire size, i.e., 22 ga vs. 18ga. >At least for the larger circular connector series from AMP or Amphenol, >the pins are color coded with tiny bands. Of course the companies >don't make it easy to discover the color code meanings! I've never >seen a collated chart, even from a single manufacturer. If any has >such a chart, I would love to see it. It's not a big secret. Most pins offered for military spec'ed connectors are in the Mil-C-39029 family of devices. In particular, the 20AWG standard density d-sub pins are 39029/64-369. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/D-Subminature/D-Sub_20AWG_Pin.jpg similarly, sockets are 39029/63-368 http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/D-Subminature/D-Sub_20AWG_Socket.jpg Note that in both cases, the color banding on the pin barrel uses the legacy electronic components color code convention shown below. Emacs! In the case of the d-sub pins, the color bands denote the last digits after the dash in the full part number. I'm aware of no cross-reference list that will let you back into the application of some stray pin. However, if you go to a particular connector's specifications, the pins for each hole along with the wire-gage range for that pin will be defined. I'm aware of no ambiguity in 20 or 22AWG d-sub pins for marking or application. If you have a pin that doesn't fit the hole in a D-sub of one brand, then it's not a d-sub pin for any brand. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Switch Combinations
Date: Jan 12, 2009
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
Thanks to all for your comments. Good points, they will remain separate. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 12:17 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch Combinations At 09:27 AM 1/12/2009, you wrote: >I am using Z13/8 with a dual EI (Lightspeed) setup. By default I >have two ignition switches for L/R or front and back if you prefer. >Since I am not using a keyway switch I am wondering if there is a >way to wire a single switch to manage both EI's? My design goal is >to eliminate additional switches where they can otherwise be combined. Dual ignition offers true redundancy only if they are completely independent of each other. They should share a minimum amount of hardware . . . especially switches. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Allen Fulmer" <afulmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: Infinity Stick Grip switch grounding?
Date: Jan 12, 2009
Many of the push button and/or toggle switches on the Infinity grips have two wires and most functions they control simply require a connection to a ground when activated (like PushToTalk, AP disconnect, Freq swap, etc.). Plus the trim switch (coolie hat) has one connection labeled common or ground. My question is, as a general rule, would it be better to connect those switches (needing a ground) to the airframe (under the seat somewhere in this case) or carry a single ground wire back to the forest of tabs (or avionics ground "bus")? Does it matter? Thanks, Allen Fulmer RV7 Wiring/Plumbing Eggenfellner Subaru E6T on firewall N808AF reserved Alexander City, AL 256-329-2001 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: Infinity Stick Grip switch grounding?
Date: Jan 12, 2009
Hi Allen (From another Subbie...) I am not an EE or a specialist, but I did connect all grip ground wires to one ground bus under the seat, and then carried a single ground from that bus to the firewall forest of tabs. It works flawlessly, but I did some tests grounding each of the wires to the airframe locally and worked good as well. I believe the only one that can cause a ground loop problem would be the ground wire from the PTT. Carlos > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Allen Fulmer > Sent: segunda-feira, 12 de Janeiro de 2009 18:46 > To: Aeroelectric-List (E-mail) > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Infinity Stick Grip switch grounding? > > > Many of the push button and/or toggle switches on the Infinity grips have > two wires and most functions they control simply require a connection to a > ground when activated (like PushToTalk, AP disconnect, Freq swap, etc.). > Plus the trim switch (coolie hat) has one connection labeled common or > ground. > > My question is, as a general rule, would it be better to connect those > switches (needing a ground) to the airframe (under the seat somewhere in > this case) or carry a single ground wire back to the forest of tabs (or > avionics ground "bus")? > > Does it matter? > > Thanks, > > Allen Fulmer > RV7 Wiring/Plumbing > Eggenfellner Subaru E6T on firewall > N808AF reserved > Alexander City, AL > 256-329-2001 > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: D-Sub connectors
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2009
See, That's why we post here Bob, you knew that the the color bands index to the mil-spec part, whereas when I order from Arrow or Jameco, or Newark, I only paid attention to the Amp catalog numbers and the tooling / App sheets. I never noticed that the MilSpec nomenclature was even in the docs I have! Bravo. ijr -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224318#224318 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 12, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Infinity Stick Grip switch grounding?
At 12:45 PM 1/12/2009, you wrote: > >Many of the push button and/or toggle switches on the Infinity grips have >two wires and most functions they control simply require a connection to a >ground when activated (like PushToTalk, AP disconnect, Freq swap, etc.). >Plus the trim switch (coolie hat) has one connection labeled common or >ground. > >My question is, as a general rule, would it be better to connect those >switches (needing a ground) to the airframe (under the seat somewhere in >this case) or carry a single ground wire back to the forest of tabs (or >avionics ground "bus")? > >Does it matter? These are control lines, not signal lines. Further, they carry very little current. They will perform as advertised with local ground. The only caveat might suggest that each ground wire from each switch get its own ground wire through the maintenance connector . . . and have it's own terminal to the ground stud (8-32 screw). This will prevent loss of one wire causing loss of all control functions on the stick that use a ground for operation. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 12, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: D-Sub connectors
At 01:32 PM 1/12/2009, you wrote: > >See, > >That's why we post here Bob, you knew that the the color bands >index to the mil-spec part, whereas when I order from Arrow or >Jameco, or Newark, I only paid attention to the Amp catalog numbers >and the tooling / App sheets. I never noticed that the MilSpec >nomenclature was even in the docs I have! Pleased to be of service my friend. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Internally Regulated Alternators and Z-24
Date: Jan 12, 2009
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
I see Z-24 was deleted from the manual. Have there been any accepted design changes for using internally regulated alternators with Z-* designs? I see it is still in the index of the connection under http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles.html I am using a Z13-8 configuration and have been the recipient of IR alternator. Is the Z-24 still be best viable option for making the IR act like an ER alternator? Thanks, Glenn ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 12, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Internally Regulated Alternators and Z-24
At 04:37 PM 1/12/2009, you wrote: > >I see Z-24 was deleted from the manual. Have there been any accepted >design changes for using internally regulated alternators with Z-* >designs? I see it is still in the index of the connection under >http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles.html > >I am using a Z13-8 configuration and have been the recipient of IR >alternator. Is the Z-24 still be best viable option for making the IR >act like an ER alternator? Z-24 has been moved to here: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Adapting_IR_Alternators_to_Aircraft.pdf Z-24 is an acceptable means for controlling the IR alternator in the manner common to aircraft where the alternator is not turned on or off while at high engine rpm and/or under heavy load. I offer this caveat only because there is a small chance that any given IR alternator is not designed for protecting it's own regulator under severe load- dump conditions. Having written that, I can tell you that IR alternators from most sources will stand moderate to severe load-dump. The Z-24 architecture will smoothly transition into incorporation of the AEC9004-1 controller should you elect to upgrade at a later date. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris" <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com>
Subject: Re: D-Sub connectors
Date: Jan 12, 2009
I'll second the compliment, I have learned so much about D-subs, when I saw the sheet metal type in mouser I kinda wondered and I can't say I have ever seen them in an actual application. SO machined it is! Thanks Chris RV-10 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 4:38 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: D-Sub connectors > > > At 01:32 PM 1/12/2009, you wrote: >> >>See, >> >>That's why we post here Bob, you knew that the the color bands >>index to the mil-spec part, whereas when I order from Arrow or >>Jameco, or Newark, I only paid attention to the Amp catalog numbers >>and the tooling / App sheets. I never noticed that the MilSpec >>nomenclature was even in the docs I have! > > Pleased to be of service my friend. > > Bob . . . > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Internally Regulated Alternators and Z-24
Date: Jan 13, 2009
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
Thanks Bob, Question is the AEC9004-1 available now? -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 7:30 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Internally Regulated Alternators and Z-24 At 04:37 PM 1/12/2009, you wrote: > >I see Z-24 was deleted from the manual. Have there been any accepted >design changes for using internally regulated alternators with Z-* >designs? I see it is still in the index of the connection under >http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles.html > >I am using a Z13-8 configuration and have been the recipient of IR >alternator. Is the Z-24 still be best viable option for making the IR >act like an ER alternator? Z-24 has been moved to here: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Adapting_IR_Alternators_to_Aircraft.pdf Z-24 is an acceptable means for controlling the IR alternator in the manner common to aircraft where the alternator is not turned on or off while at high engine rpm and/or under heavy load. I offer this caveat only because there is a small chance that any given IR alternator is not designed for protecting it's own regulator under severe load- dump conditions. Having written that, I can tell you that IR alternators from most sources will stand moderate to severe load-dump. The Z-24 architecture will smoothly transition into incorporation of the AEC9004-1 controller should you elect to upgrade at a later date. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 13, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: D-Sub connectors
At 08:43 PM 1/12/2009, you wrote: > >I'll second the compliment, I have learned so much about D-subs, >when I saw the sheet metal type in mouser I kinda wondered and I >can't say I have ever seen them in an actual application. SO machined it is! Probably every d-sub connector in your computer system is populated with the sheet metal pins. These are most often supplied in very long strips and coiled onto reels for application by automatic machines. ASSUMING you have the manufacturing environment to install these pins, they'll perform as advertised. We should also be mindful that just because a pin is not machined from solid materials doesn't place it lower in the connector food chain. AMP MulitMate series of pins are an excellent example of high-performance products manufactured from sheet stock and well suited for high volume production. Emacs! Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Barter" <kesleyelectric(at)chooseblue.coop>
Subject: Re: D-Sub connectors
Date: Jan 13, 2009
Bob, I have noticed that a few of your replies concerning D-sub connectors have a reference to Emacs!. I'm not familiar with that. What is it? Tom Barter Kesley,Iowa Avid Magnum - wiring -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 9:09 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: D-Sub connectors At 08:43 PM 1/12/2009, you wrote: I'll second the compliment, I have learned so much about D-subs, when I saw the sheet metal type in mouser I kinda wondered and I can't say I have ever seen them in an actual application. SO machined it is! Probably every d-sub connector in your computer system is populated with the sheet metal pins. These are most often supplied in very long strips and coiled onto reels for application by automatic machines. ASSUMING you have the manufacturing environment to install these pins, they'll perform as advertised. We should also be mindful that just because a pin is not machined from solid materials doesn't place it lower in the connector food chain. AMP MulitMate series of pins are an excellent example of high-performance products manufactured from sheet stock and well suited for high volume production. Emacs! Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 8:17 AM ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Z-13 Questions
Date: Jan 13, 2009
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
I be using an 85 Amp IR alternator with this design. Couple of questions. 1. For the primary alt, is it ok to go with an 80 Amp Shunt and ANL? I understand they will take 1xx % of rating? 2. For the secondary alt is it ok to replace the fuse-link in the design for an ANL? Rating 10 amp? 3. The B & C schematic is slightly different in breaker/wire sizing. Should I adhere to that more closely than Bob's? 4. If I understand the instruction the SD-8 indicates the warning light is ON when the switch is off or the OVP has tripped. I'm not sure if I want that big yellow bulb on all the time? What other warning light configurations are folks using? 5. My ANLs/contactors will be on the firewall. Are there any caveats for protecting them from heat, dirt, oil, water etc? Thanks, Glenn ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 13, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Internally Regulated Alternators and Z-24
At 08:54 AM 1/13/2009, you wrote: > >Thanks Bob, > >Question is the AEC9004-1 available now? No. As soon as it is, it will be added to the catalog at: https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/AECcatalog.html and will be announced on the List. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 13, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-13 Questions
At 12:54 PM 1/13/2009, you wrote: >I be using an 85 Amp IR alternator with this design. Couple of questions. > > >1. For the primary alt, is it ok to go with an 80 Amp Shunt >and ANL? I understand they will take 1xx % of rating? The shunt is the same size as alternator rating. You can use an ANL as low as 35A with a 60A alternator. http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Fuses_and_Current_Limiters/Bussman/ANL_Specs.pdf >2. For the secondary alt is it ok to replace the fuse-link in >the design for an ANL? Rating 10 amp? Sure. Not an ANL but an 20A ATC fuse in an in-line holder. http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Fuses/Fuse_Holders/ifh-2.jpg >3. The B & C schematic is slightly different in breaker/wire >sizing. Should I adhere to that more closely than Bob's? His schematic works as advertised. So does mine. >4. If I understand the instruction the SD-8 indicates the >warning light is ON when the switch is off or the OVP has tripped. >I'm not sure if I want that big yellow bulb on all the time? What >other warning light configurations are folks using? Don't install it. I presume you have a low voltage warning that is independent of the alternator(s). >5. My ANLs/contactors will be on the firewall. Are there any >caveats for protecting them from heat, dirt, oil, water etc? Cessna, Piper and Beech don't worry about it. http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wiring_Technique/A36_Firewall_A.jpg It must not be a big deal. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 13, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: D-Sub connectors
At 11:11 AM 1/13/2009, you wrote: > > >Bob, > >I have noticed that a few of your replies concerning D-sub connectors have a >reference to Emacs!. I'm not familiar with that. What is it? Probably an artifact of typos and/or cut-n-paste activity. Ignore it. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Z-13 Questions
Date: Jan 13, 2009
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
Excellent, thanks Bob. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 3:35 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-13 Questions At 12:54 PM 1/13/2009, you wrote: >I be using an 85 Amp IR alternator with this design. Couple of questions. > > >1. For the primary alt, is it ok to go with an 80 Amp Shunt >and ANL? I understand they will take 1xx % of rating? The shunt is the same size as alternator rating. You can use an ANL as low as 35A with a 60A alternator. http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Fuses_and_Current_Limiters/Bussman/ANL _Specs.pdf >2. For the secondary alt is it ok to replace the fuse-link in >the design for an ANL? Rating 10 amp? Sure. Not an ANL but an 20A ATC fuse in an in-line holder. http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Fuses/Fuse_Holders/ifh-2.jpg >3. The B & C schematic is slightly different in breaker/wire >sizing. Should I adhere to that more closely than Bob's? His schematic works as advertised. So does mine. >4. If I understand the instruction the SD-8 indicates the >warning light is ON when the switch is off or the OVP has tripped. >I'm not sure if I want that big yellow bulb on all the time? What >other warning light configurations are folks using? Don't install it. I presume you have a low voltage warning that is independent of the alternator(s). >5. My ANLs/contactors will be on the firewall. Are there any >caveats for protecting them from heat, dirt, oil, water etc? Cessna, Piper and Beech don't worry about it. http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wiring_Technique/A36_Firewall_A.jpg It must not be a big deal. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: D-Sub connectors
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 13, 2009
Hi All, Through a circuitous route (that's a double E pun) I found this web page which not only illustrates the connector pin color code that Bob explained, but also adds includes a table of which positioner to use for the crimp: http://www.pinsandsockets.nl/bin.htm I'm not an Engineer, I just played one in Grad School :D -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224593#224593 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 14, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Shielded wiring
>Sorry it wasn't you. I read it on page 191 fig 7 of "Firewall >Forward" by Tony Bingelis. >Do I understand correctly that only one end the shield of a shielded >cable, like from the Bat. terminal of the alternator, should be grounded. You should join us on the AeroElectric-List. The real rule for shields is follow the manufacturer's instructions. The designer is free to use shields for tasks OTHER than breaking an electro-static noise coupling mode. Folks are fond of parroting rules of one kind or another . . . but are generally not conversant in the physics of how shields work and the variety of additional tasks to which shield may be applied. You will find no shields on my z-figures other than those which are useful . . . and they will show which ends are connected and to what. If you have shielded wire on your alternator, know that it doesn't hurt anything . . . but doesn't help anything either. >I have enjoyed you web site although sometimes I find it hard to >locate what I'm looking for. I'm sure I'll get the hang of it with >more experience. It's not well organized. Suggest you use the google search option to look for words and phrases. I'm working on a bunch of indexing pages to update the website. We're pre-occupied right now with getting two households moved to Medicine Lodge, KS and two houses in Wichita sold. I'll have a lot more time to update the website this spring/summer. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Les Goldner" <lgold@quantum-associates.com>
Subject: Using a key Ignition switch with a Rotax 912
Date: Jan 14, 2009
I know it is not the best idea to use an off the shelf inexpensive duel ignition switch with a key because of the possibility of the switch failing. However, given the ease of use and (limited) security feature, I chose to use such a keyed switch. Now I am being told that it is a particularly bad idea to use this type of switch on a Rotax 912 engine because a lot more current passes through the switch with a Rotax 912 than with a Continental or Lycoming. I was also told that this current far exceeds the current that these switches were designed for. Does anyone know if this information is true? I don't want to have to lie upside down under may panel for a few hours pulling out the darn switch if this is just an old wife's tale. Les ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 14, 2009
From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Using a key Ignition switch with a Rotax 912
Les, Check the 912 installation manual, but I think you're the victim of an OHFT (old hangar flying tale, let's just leave the wives out of this :-} Rick On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Les Goldner <lgold@quantum-associates.com>wrote: > I know it is not the best idea to use an off the shelf inexpensive duel > ignition switch with a key because of the possibility of the switch failing. > However, given the ease of use and (limited) security feature, I chose to > use such a keyed switch. > > Now I am being told that it is a particularly bad idea to use this type of > switch on a Rotax 912 engine because a lot more current passes through the > switch with a Rotax 912 than with a Continental or Lycoming. I was also told > that this current far exceeds the current that these switches were designed > for. > > Does anyone know if this information is true? I don't want to have to lie > upside down under may panel for a few hours pulling out the darn switch if > this is just an old wife's tale. > > Les > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Floyd" <fwilkes(at)gvtc.com>
Subject: Re: Using a key Ignition switch with a Rotax 912
Date: Jan 14, 2009
Les, I am not sure how the Rotax works but here is what I did for a Continental. I used two toggle switches with OFF-ON-monentary ON position for my mags and start function.. I wired the two Monentary ON in series then to an external starter relay. Thus the toggles only see the small current needed for the relay. I have to hold both switches in the Momentary ON position to engage the starter and when I tun lose, they go to the ON positions for the individual mags. I do not have a key in the ignition system but I doubt anyone could figure out how to start the plane and it is well insured. Besides, the plane is in a locked hangar. I am sure you could do the same and have your key switch to control a relay that controls the starter. This is how the TC aircraft work. You may also consider a "starter engaged" light to let you know if the starter relay ever sticks closed. Floyd Wilkes 601XL Flying and having a wonderful time. ----- Original Message ----- From: Les Goldner To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 6:20 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Using a key Ignition switch with a Rotax 912 I know it is not the best idea to use an off the shelf inexpensive duel ignition switch with a key because of the possibility of the switch failing. However, given the ease of use and (limited) security feature, I chose to use such a keyed switch. Now I am being told that it is a particularly bad idea to use this type of switch on a Rotax 912 engine because a lot more current passes through the switch with a Rotax 912 than with a Continental or Lycoming. I was also told that this current far exceeds the current that these switches were designed for. Does anyone know if this information is true? I don't want to have to lie upside down under may panel for a few hours pulling out the darn switch if this is just an old wife's tale. Les ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 14, 2009
From: John Morgensen <john(at)morgensen.com>
Subject: Re: Using a key Ignition switch with a Rotax 912
I wasn't going to use a key at all but decided that the appearance of a (limited) security feature was a good thing. I used a marine ignition switch off-run-(start) with the only the (start) position used for the engine starter. I am planning on using the "run" position to activate the APRS tracking radio. Turning to "off" and pulling out the key has zero effect the electronics or a running engine. john Les Goldner wrote: > > I know it is not the best idea to use an off the shelf inexpensive > duel ignition switch with a key because of the possibility of the > switch failing. However, given the ease of use and (limited) security > feature, I chose to use such a keyed switch. > > Now I am being told that it is a particularly bad idea to use this > type of switch on a Rotax 912 engine because a lot more current passes > through the switch with a Rotax 912 than with a Continental or > Lycoming. I was also told that this current far exceeds the current > that these switches were designed for. > > Does anyone know if this information is true? I dont want to have to > lie upside down under may panel for a few hours pulling out the darn > switch if this is just an old wifes tale. > > Les > > * > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris" <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com>
Subject: Honeywell Switch Info TL, NT,TS Series
Date: Jan 14, 2009
Some FYI for folks, I took interest in the Honeywell TL switches after reading about the possible issues with Carling etc. So looking at the data sheets I went looking for the TL's with fast-ons or as they say quick connect. They are a rare breed. I emailed Honeywell and below is their reply. Seems to be unobtanium. Anyone know why? Is it because they are quick connect and Honeywell believes screw terminals are what most aerospace folks order? I had ordered an NT series (USA country of origin on package) , a TS series (china country of origin), and also an NKK switch (Japan country of origin) from Digikey to look at them to see if they passed my "looks and feels like a quality product I want in my airplane" test. I was probably most impressed with the NT switch followed by the NKK switch, then the TS switch. I noticed a more solid type rivet on the quick connect on the NKK and NT switch where the TS switch had more dimpled looking rivet like I saw on the pictures of the Carling switches. So if you want TL's right away you need to get them with screw terminals. Probably ground well covered before...but I just thought I would share some of my newbie trip down the electrical yellow brick road... Chris Lucas RV-10 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sc, Info" <info.sc(at)honeywell.com> Cc: "Sc, Info" Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 3:45 PM Subject: RE: 1TL91 Series Switch Source Thank you for your interest in Honeywell Sensing and Control Products. The 1TL91/2TL91 series is shown on our website: http://sensing.honeywell.com/index.cfm?Ntt=1TL91*&Ntk=si_all_products&ci _id=154286&la_id=1&x=2&y=3 The 1TL91 series is not a stock item at the factory, nor at our Authorized Distributors. We do offer the 1NT/2NT Series that is readily available from our Authorized Distributors. Attached is engineer documents for the 1NT91/2NT91 series for your to review. 4 SPST On Off 1TL91-2 or 1NT91-2 1 SPST (on) off (on) 1TL91-7 or 1NT91-7 2 DPDT On Off not released, so for DPDT unit with Q.C. terminals we have the 2NT91-2 Please use our Sales and Service Locator at the following website to find the Authorized Distributor that can provide you price and delivery information. http://sensing.honeywell.com/index.cfm?ci_id=154022&la_id=1 If you have any further questions, or need any other assistance, do not hesitate to contact us. Honeywell International Inc. Sensing and Control Division Customer Response Center Phone: 1-800-537-6945 International: 815-235-6847 Fax: 815-235-6545 E-Mail: info.sc(at)honeywell.com Website: www.honeywell.com/sensing/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Using a key Ignition switch with a Rotax 912
Date: Jan 15, 2009
From: Etienne Phillips <etienne.phillips(at)gmail.com>
On 15 Jan 2009, at 3:08 AM, Floyd wrote: > I do not have a key in the ignition system but I doubt anyone > could figure out how to start the plane... Of course there's nothing stopping someone capable of flying the aircraft (generally a pilot) from turning on the mags and hand- swinging the prop ;-) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Using a key Ignition switch with a Rotax 912
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 15, 2009
I actually use a keyed ignition switch on my 912ULS. It is a Bendix switch and has been working as planned for 5 years. My a/c is not the only rotax powered, keyed system I know of. Any trip to SnF or Osh will illustrate this is a popular system config. If I were you Les, I would ignore the comments of anyone who does not have direct, hands on experience with the 912/914 -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224899#224899 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 15, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Using a key Ignition switch with a Rotax 912
At 09:11 AM 1/15/2009, you wrote: > >I actually use a keyed ignition switch on my 912ULS. >It is a Bendix switch and has been working as planned for 5 years. >My a/c is not the only rotax powered, keyed system I know of. >Any trip to SnF or Osh will illustrate this is a popular system config. > >If I were you Les, I would ignore the comments of anyone who does >not have direct, hands on experience with the 912/914 The Rotax ignition systems use the same switching conventions as a legacy magneto. I.e. closing the switch kills the ignition system. The standard off-l-r-both-start switches work fine. Keyed switches were the brain-child of the airplane- in-every-garage thinking of those who were building aviation manufacturing empires with grandiose plans. The idea was that the more your airplane looked/felt like an automobile, the better. The earliest single engine aircraft were not fitted with key-locked mag switches. Certainly airplanes with two or more engines were and are not fitted with multiple key-locked switches. I once brought a rental aircraft home after loosing the key by wiggling the ring terminals on the back of the mag switch until they broke off. I propped the engine and came home. It took ten minutes with a crimp tool to fix the wiring after I got back. If someone is capable of flying your airplane and has evil intent upon depriving you of possession, the key-lock switch is a trivial impediment to their purpose. This is the better theft deterrent . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/AC_Theft_Protection.jpg This particular airplane's doors can be opened in seconds with a lock-pick and turning wrench. The super- hard chain and lock are entirely another matter . . . Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 15, 2009
Subject: Z-11 + aux battery and diode bridge rectifier problem
From: Paul Eckenroth <N509RV(at)eckenroth.com>
I have an RV9A wired as per Z-11 with a 7A aux battery as an EFIS keep alive during start. This has worked well for 200 hours. Lately the EFIS has been graying out during engine starts which implies that the aux battery is being tapped for other than the electronics during engine start. The batteries are isolated using two diode bridge rectifiers from B&C. The E bus which feed the EFIS and other electronics gets it's power from the main bus through one of the bridge rectifiers. Both of the batteries power the main bus through individual contactors. The E bus is also powered through the second bridge rectifier by both batteries direct and then controlled by the E bus switch. Normal start is main battery contactor on, aux battery contactor off, and E bus switch on. This should isolate the aux battery to the E bus until the aux battery contactor is turned on after engine start. I have checked both diode assemblies to see that they are allowing current to flow in the correct direction and they are not allowing backfeed. Everything checks out properly using the voltmeter. However it seems to me that the problem must lie with the diodes since they are the only link between the batteries with the aux battery contactor off. Can a diode function correctly under low load conditions and then temporarily break down under start conditions. Any ideas as to how I should proceed. Please keep in mind that I have read the AeroElectric Connection and wired my RV9 but have no formal electrical knowledge beyond this. Paul Eckenroth ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Using a key Ignition switch with a Rotax 912
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 15, 2009
I can't think of a single aircraft you could park in my old neighborhood of 168th & Broadway, NYC and have it be there in the morning, hardened chain and all. Maybe that why the TSA has locked up all the airports? I'm just kidding guys 8) -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224981#224981 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Barter" <kesleyelectric(at)chooseblue.coop>
Subject: Bussman fuse blocks
Date: Jan 15, 2009
I am looking for information on Bussman fuse blocks that have the terminals on the back side of the block. I would like to mount the fuseblock under the panel on a hinged plate that would swing down for access to the fuses. I know that there have been references to this, but an archive search does not seem to find it. I found the 15300 series on the Bussman site, but am not sure of the terminals used. Any help appreciated. Regards, Tom Barter Kesley, IA Avid Magnum - wiring ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Allen Fulmer" <afulmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: Bussman fuse blocks
Date: Jan 15, 2009
I saved an email with this link: http://home.earthlink.net/~dswartzendruber/ I used standard bussman fuse blocks however. Allen Fulmer RV7 Wiring Eggenfellner E6Ti hanging N808AF reserved Alexander City, AL -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tom Barter Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 6:48 PM To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bussman fuse blocks I am looking for information on Bussman fuse blocks that have the terminals on the back side of the block. I would like to mount the fuseblock under the panel on a hinged plate that would swing down for access to the fuses. I know that there have been references to this, but an archive search does not seem to find it. I found the 15300 series on the Bussman site, but am not sure of the terminals used. Any help appreciated. Regards, Tom Barter Kesley, IA Avid Magnum - wiring ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 15, 2009
From: <jlatimer1(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Bussman fuse blocks
Try this link http://www.mihdirect.biz/ I purchased one and actually like it better than the one sold at B&C. Jerry ---- Tom Barter wrote: > I am looking for information on Bussman fuse blocks that have the terminals > on the back side of the block. I would like to mount the fuseblock under > the panel on a hinged plate that would swing down for access to the fuses. > I know that there have been references to this, but an archive search does > not seem to find it. I found the 15300 series on the Bussman site, but am > not sure of the terminals used. Any help appreciated. > > > > Regards, > > > > Tom Barter > > Kesley, IA > > Avid Magnum - wiring > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2009
Subject: What can I use to cover battery terminals?
From: rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US
I have an Odyssey PC545 battery. That battery uses 6MM screws to mount the positive and negative terminal to its brass lugs. There is only ~ .030" clearance between the bottom of the terminal and the battery case. I will be putting adhesive lined heat shrink on the terminal lapping onto the #4CC wire, but it will still leave plenty of metal exposed to create a momentary 1200 amp short, or at least 545 amps for 5 seconds. Those silicone terminal covers don't have a chance to fit into a .030" gap. I could mutilatethe silicone terminal covers, but it will not be a great fit but it will kinda work. I could put electrical tape covering the terminals, that will kinda work but a hack job. Anyone have any ideas for a more eloquent solution? See pictures #25 and #26: http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album266&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php Thx. Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2009
Subject: Re: What can I use to cover battery terminals?
From: Richard Girard <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>
Ron, On my Harley I use a sheet of reinforced rubber to cover the whole top of the battery, held on with a simple strap. Not elegant, but in 17 years it's never failed. Rick On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 1:47 AM, wrote: > I have an Odyssey PC545 battery. That battery uses 6MM screws to mount the > positive and negative terminal to its brass lugs. > > There is only ~ .030" clearance between the bottom of the terminal and the > battery case. > > I will be putting adhesive lined heat shrink on the terminal lapping onto > the #4CC wire, but it will still leave plenty of metal exposed to create a > momentary 1200 amp short, or at least 545 amps for 5 seconds. > > Those silicone terminal covers don't have a chance to fit into a .030" gap. > > I could mutilate the silicone terminal covers, but it will not be a great > fit but it will kinda work. > > I could put electrical tape covering the terminals, that will kinda work > but a hack job. > > Anyone have any ideas for a more eloquent solution? > > See pictures #25 and #26: > > http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album266&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php > > Thx. > Ron Parigoris > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2009
From: Dale Rogers <dale.r(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: What can I use to cover battery terminals?
On 16-Jan-2008 rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US wrote: > I have an Odyssey PC545 battery. That battery uses 6MM screws to mount > the positive and negative terminal to its brass lugs. > > There is only ~ .030" clearance between the bottom of the terminal and > the battery case. > > I will be putting adhesive lined heat shrink on the terminal lapping > onto the #4CC wire, but it will still leave plenty of metal exposed to > create a momentary 1200 amp short, or at least 545 amps for 5 seconds. > > Those silicone terminal covers don't have a chance to fit into a .030" > gap. > > I could mutilate the silicone terminal covers, but it will not be a > great fit but it will kinda work. > > I could put electrical tape covering the terminals, that will kinda > work but a hack job. > > Anyone have any ideas for a more eloquent solution? > > See pictures #25 and #26: > http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album266&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php > <http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album266&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php> > > Thx. > Ron Parigoris You might want to consider "doming" the case over the terminals. It can be done with the peen end of a ball-peen hammer, or you could use a more elegant solution with a tool made just for that task, such as: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=93539 (Most machine tool suppliers, such as Rutland, Travers, and Enco offer a similar item.) Dale R. COZY MkIV #0497 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2009
From: "Bob Verwey" <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: What can I use to cover battery terminals?
Use a piece of Tufnol sheet (phenolic)many thicknesses available, bonded to the top of the Batt box. I had the same problem. Works great.Bob Verwey ZU-DLW Only flying A35 Bonanza flying in Africa On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 9:47 AM, wrote: > I have an Odyssey PC545 battery. That battery uses 6MM screws to mount the > positive and negative terminal to its brass lugs. > > There is only ~ .030" clearance between the bottom of the terminal and the > battery case. > > I will be putting adhesive lined heat shrink on the terminal lapping onto > the #4CC wire, but it will still leave plenty of metal exposed to create a > momentary 1200 amp short, or at least 545 amps for 5 seconds. > > Those silicone terminal covers don't have a chance to fit into a .030" gap. > > I could mutilate the silicone terminal covers, but it will not be a great > fit but it will kinda work. > > I could put electrical tape covering the terminals, that will kinda work > but a hack job. > > Anyone have any ideas for a more eloquent solution? > > See pictures #25 and #26: > > http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album266&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php > > Thx. > Ron Parigoris > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: What can I use to cover battery terminals?
Date: Jan 16, 2009
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
Thanks for the album shots Ron. That looks like a fun project. You guys do know that you can buy battery boxes for the Odyssey for about $35.00 right? Bolt on and go. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale Rogers Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 8:00 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What can I use to cover battery terminals? On 16-Jan-2008 rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US wrote: > I have an Odyssey PC545 battery. That battery uses 6MM screws to mount > the positive and negative terminal to its brass lugs. > > There is only ~ .030" clearance between the bottom of the terminal and > the battery case. > > I will be putting adhesive lined heat shrink on the terminal lapping > onto the #4CC wire, but it will still leave plenty of metal exposed to > create a momentary 1200 amp short, or at least 545 amps for 5 seconds. > > Those silicone terminal covers don't have a chance to fit into a .030" > gap. > > I could mutilate the silicone terminal covers, but it will not be a > great fit but it will kinda work. > > I could put electrical tape covering the terminals, that will kinda > work but a hack job. > > Anyone have any ideas for a more eloquent solution? > > See pictures #25 and #26: > http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album266&op=modloa d&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php > <http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album266&op=modlo ad&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php> > > Thx. > Ron Parigoris You might want to consider "doming" the case over the terminals. It can be done with the peen end of a ball-peen hammer, or you could use a more elegant solution with a tool made just for that task, such as: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=93539 (Most machine tool suppliers, such as Rutland, Travers, and Enco offer a similar item.) Dale R. COZY MkIV #0497 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Contactor Polarity
Date: Jan 16, 2009
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
I think this question was raised last week, but I could not find it via the search engine. For appearances I am planning to mount my contactors (3), ANL's, SD-8 capacitor/relay on a sheet of glossy carbon fiber bolted to the firewall. To make it look good it will require the contactors be properly arranged on the board. Does polarity (primary lugs) matter on the B & C contactors? I have both momentary and constant. Thanks, Glenn ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: What can I use to cover battery terminals?
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 16, 2009
Hey Ron, As I am sure you know, your Odyssey does not require a battery box. Just a waste of weight for a modern technology battery. You could simply put a thin sheet of lexan over the terminals, held on with a small dab of silastic. I would not do that however until you have finished troubleshooting your electrical system and avionics because you will be amazed at how many times you will want to disco the battery and reconnect 5 minutes later for testing. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225079#225079 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?
From: "pilot4pay" <pilot4profit(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: Jan 16, 2009
While Bob and others have thoroughly covered the topic very well, I thought I might add personal experience with cool-amp. My job as an electrician for a major automobile manufacturer, I worked for most of my career in the body shops. We used cool-amp on resistance welding equipment connections. These connections, are subjected to current ranges from thousands to tens of thousands of amps of current. the necessity stems from the nature of the welding process. the "resistance" in resistance welding refers to the resistance of the junction of 2 or more body panels. that interface is measured in a few hundred micro-ohms, and passing huge ammounts of current through that small resistance generates the heat of fusion. The silver plating on the connections ensures that the heat is generated where we want a weld to take place, not , say at the transformer feeding weld gun. When repairs are made to connections, we would use the cool amp to re-plate a damaged connection. As maintenance budgets dwindled, the cool-amp ran out, we had to make repairs without it. What was important in the repaired connection became that the conductor connections surfaces needed to be as flat and clean as possible. as long as the mating surfaces were as high a quality as we could finish them, and tightened properly, they functioned just as well without the cool-amp. I highly doubt that cool-amp will add any measurable improvements in reliability for your home-builder applications. Save your money. -------- Craig Smith CH640 builder SN: 0078 "Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225080#225080 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Contactor Polarity
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 16, 2009
Glenn, Are you sure you want to use carbon fiber?? It is a conductor, but not good enough to serve as a common ground in a power circuit. You might be chasing ground loops until the end of time, unless you tie the things wanting to be connected together with thick buss cable and isolate the mounts that should not be grounded. Contactors should not have polarity in the power leads -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225081#225081 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Contactor Polarity
Date: Jan 16, 2009
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
Ira, The carbon fiber is just a mounting base for the contactors. I have a plastic airplane. I am planning to use buss bars to connect the contactors. Thanks, Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rampil Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 9:39 AM Subject: [Probable SPAM] AeroElectric-List: Re: Contactor Polarity Glenn, Are you sure you want to use carbon fiber?? It is a conductor, but not good enough to serve as a common ground in a power circuit. You might be chasing ground loops until the end of time, unless you tie the things wanting to be connected together with thick buss cable and isolate the mounts that should not be grounded. Contactors should not have polarity in the power leads -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225081#225081 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Contactor Polarity
At 07:55 AM 1/16/2009, you wrote: >I think this question was raised last week, but I could not find it >via the search engine. > >For appearances I am planning to mount my contactors (3), ANL's, >SD-8 capacitor/relay on a sheet of glossy carbon fiber bolted to the >firewall. To make it look good it will require the contactors be >properly arranged on the board. Does polarity (primary lugs) matter >on the B & C contactors? I have both momentary and constant. No. The contactors themselves are not polarity critical, only the diodes you may have to put on the outside. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: What can I use to cover battery terminals?
At 01:47 AM 1/16/2009, you wrote: >I have an Odyssey PC545 battery. That battery uses 6MM screws to >mount the positive and negative terminal to its brass lugs. > >There is only ~ .030" clearance between the bottom of the terminal >and the battery case. > >I will be putting adhesive lined heat shrink on the terminal lapping >onto the #4CC wire, but it will still leave plenty of metal exposed >to create a momentary 1200 amp short, or at least 545 amps for 5 seconds. > >Those silicone terminal covers don't have a chance to fit into a .030" gap. > >I could mutilate the silicone terminal covers, but it will not be a >great fit but it will kinda work. > >I could put electrical tape covering the terminals, that will kinda >work but a hack job. > >Anyone have any ideas for a more eloquent solution? > >See pictures #25 and #26: ><http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album266&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php>http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album266&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php > >Thx. >Ron Parigoris] Why a battery box at all? The RG batteries are quite happy strapped down in a simple tray. Capture the footprint in tray with say 1/2" tall sides and strap down with a couple of 200# plus webbing straps, either one of which would hold the battery in place with 10G acceleration. Alternatively, dishing the top of the box is the "legacy" approach. Our rules of thumb for clearances in the TC aircraft call for .25" min clearance for equipment items mounted RIGIDLY in the airframe and .50" is better. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-11 + aux battery and diode bridge rectifier
problem At 03:57 PM 1/15/2009, you wrote: >I have an RV9A wired as per Z-11 with a 7A aux battery as an EFIS keep alive >during start. This has worked well for 200 hours. Lately the EFIS has been >graying out during engine starts which implies that the aux battery is being >tapped for other than the electronics during engine start. > >The batteries are isolated using two diode bridge rectifiers from B&C. The >E bus which feed the EFIS and other electronics gets it's power from the >main bus through one of the bridge rectifiers. Both of the batteries power >the main bus through individual contactors. The E bus is also powered >through the second bridge rectifier by both batteries direct and then >controlled by the E bus switch. Normal start is main battery contactor on, >aux battery contactor off, and E bus switch on. This should isolate the aux >battery to the E bus until the aux battery contactor is turned on after >engine start. > >I have checked both diode assemblies to see that they are allowing current >to flow in the correct direction and they are not allowing backfeed. >Everything checks out properly using the voltmeter. However it seems to me >that the problem must lie with the diodes since they are the only link >between the batteries with the aux battery contactor off. Can a diode >function correctly under low load conditions and then temporarily break down >under start conditions. > >Any ideas as to how I should proceed. Please keep in mind that I have read >the AeroElectric Connection and wired my RV9 but have no formal electrical >knowledge beyond this. Diodes don't "go bad" in ways that would produce the symptoms you're seeing. The only thing that comes to mind is that the aux battery isn't being properly charged or has departed for the happy hunting grounds. You need to load and cap check the battery. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2009
Subject: What can I use to cover battery terminals?
From: rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US
Hi longg Thx. for the reply. "You guys do know that you can buy battery boxes for the Odyssey for about $35.00 right? Bolt on and go." Yup we looked long and hard at premade boxes. The shape of the fuse floor of the Europa is torture to bond to as it is a declining cone, only thin glass layer over foam on inside ~ 1/8" thick is not conducive to bolt to. We could have set the aluminium box in Expancel/Aeropoxy then BID/Redux the box to floor, but a few reasons we *descided to scratch build: *ease of bonding *ease of making changes *can easily strengthen if needed *viabration dampening with form fit to battery *radiused corners very conducive for 4 Balsa angled legs that are not just light, but easy to shape and if ever need to move battery, easy t cut 3 BID and break Balsa and move Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2009
Subject: Re: What can I use to cover battery terminals?
From: rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US
Hi Bob "Why a battery box at all?" I agree, my "box" is missing the top half, and will be missing about 1/2 of the bottom. Guess should have called it a battery tray. You can see from picture that the terminals are completly exposed. I know when working in the cramped quarters of the aft fuse, a wrench or something metalic is going to short the battery, and besides branding me with a red hot tool, the battery is going to shower me with AGM soaked goo: http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album266&id=Bat11&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php Ron P. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: E-Bus and switching
From: "PaulR" <prose(at)panhandle.rr.com>
Date: Jan 16, 2009
I'm in the process of plagerizing Bob's Z-11 for my VFR 9A and have a question for the group. I'm pretty new to this wiring business so please be gentle. I've done the search thing to no avail. Is there a reason that the e-bus couldn't be powered through a switch like a 1-3 with power from either the main bus or the always hot bus feeding the e-bus? This would negate the need for the diode, I think. I'm sure this has been asked before, but I couldn't find a reference to it. For what it's worth, I really enjoy learning about this part of the build and this is the best place I've found for that. Thanks -------- Paul Rose N417PR (res) RV-9A Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225109#225109 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mike Cingari <mcingari(at)gmail.com>
Subject: AMP CPC Series 2, HDP-20, D-sub machined pin crimper
Date: Jan 16, 2009
Does anyone know of a high quality crimper that will work with the AMP CPC Series 2 (AMP part # 205089-1 & 205090-1), HDP-20 d-sub machined pins and sockets? Thanks for your help, Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: E-Bus and switching
Date: Jan 16, 2009
From: jaybannist(at)cs.com
Paul, I'm not an expert in airplane electronics, but I=99m sure you can do a lmost anything you want with switches. I have a toy train setup for the grandkids that has four track switches. I can set the track up to do some pretty complex routes. In order to make the train do what the kids want, I can stop the train, figu re out how to set the switches, set them and run the train to see if I guessed right. Your endurance bus could be more properly called an emergency bus. Do you w ant to go through a switch puzzle routine during an emergency? Remember that you can=99t just =9Cstop the train=9D long enough to do an ana lysis. When things go haywire, the diode arrangement allows you to get that e-bus on line and prevent back- feeding the main bus by flipping only one switch. You can=99t get much simple r than that. I recommend that you stay with an arrangement that Bob has proven to be work able, =C2-simple and reliable. Jay in Dallas -----Original Message----- From: PaulR <prose(at)panhandle.rr.com> Sent: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:36 am Subject: AeroElectric-List: E-Bus and switching I'm in the process of plagerizing Bob's Z-11 for my VFR 9A and have a questi on for the group. I'm pretty new to this wiring business so please be gentle. I've done the search thing to no avail. I s there a reason that the e-bus couldn't be powered through a switch like a 1-3 with power from either the main bus or the always hot bus feeding the e-bus? This would negate the need for the diode, I think. I'm sure this has been asked before, but I couldn't find a reference to it. For what it's worth, I really enjoy learning about this part of the build an d this is the best place I've found for that. Thanks -------- Paul Rose N417PR (res) RV-9A ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Barter" <kesleyelectric(at)chooseblue.coop>
Subject: AMP CPC Series 2, HDP-20, D-sub machined pin crimper
Date: Jan 16, 2009
Mike, The Daniels AFM8 crimper (Mil. P/N M22520/2-01) does a superb job on those pins. You will need the Daniels K13 (Mil. P/N M22520/2-08) positioner to go with it. I recently purchased the crimper on e-bay for under $40.00. Steinair has the positioners if you do not get the correct one with the crimper frame. Tom Barter Kesley, IA Avid Magnum - wiring soon -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Cingari Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:09 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: AMP CPC Series 2, HDP-20, D-sub machined pin crimper Does anyone know of a high quality crimper that will work with the AMP CPC Series 2 (AMP part # 205089-1 & 205090-1), HDP-20 d-sub machined pins and sockets? Thanks for your help, Mike Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 6:52 AM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Ciolino" <johnciolino(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: What can I use to cover battery terminals?
Date: Jan 16, 2009
Ron, Just a thought--why not construct a L shaped piece of lexan or other plastic. Screw one leg of the L to the top face of the battery hold down bar and use the other leg to create a shield covering the terminal. It would not encapsulate the terminal but should keep an errant wench from making contact. It would be an easy fiberglass lay-up; but I don't know if fiberglass is a conductor or not. Others can chime in on that. John Ciolino -------------------------------------------------- From: <rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 10:35 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What can I use to cover battery terminals? > > Hi Bob > > "Why a battery box at all?" > > I agree, my "box" is missing the top half, and will be missing about 1/2 > of the bottom. > > Guess should have called it a battery tray. > > You can see from picture that the terminals are completly exposed. I know > when working in the cramped quarters of the aft fuse, a wrench or > something metalic is going to short the battery, and besides branding me > with a red hot tool, the battery is going to shower me with AGM soaked > goo: > > http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album266&id=Bat11&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php > > Ron P. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Richard Reynolds <rvreynolds(at)macs.net>
Subject: Re: What can I use to cover battery terminals?
Date: Jan 16, 2009
I used T&B Adhesive Insulating Pads for Connectors obtained from the aviation section (electrical) of Lowes, Home Depot, etc These "mastic" pads are about 3" x 5" and 1/8" thick used to insulate big electrical connectors. Cut the pad big enough to cover the terminal and press/mold it around the terminal. It can be used two or three times. It does stick to itself. Richard Reynolds Norfolk, VA RV-6A 550 hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: AMP/Tyco Style Connectors
Date: Jan 16, 2009
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
I'm brand new to these type of connectors. Couple of questions... Ok, once I know which type of receptacle/socket set I want, the description tells me shell size and no. of contacts.. 1. How do I know what wire size it accommodates? 2. How do I know what size/type pins to buy to fit the connector? How wide of a variation exists? 3. How do I know which pins to buy to fit my wire size? 4. There seems to be a lot of moving parts with this stuff. Do they sell entire assemblies where I just crimp and go? I suppose I could just drill a 1" hole in the firewall and wrap some fire-sleeve around everything and call it a day, but I want to look professional. I'm sure there are hidden codes somewhere I'm just not looking. Excuse my ignorance. An example. I would like to buy a coupling to mate 4 contacts which are all 12-14 AWG wire. How do I determine which of these 3 million connectors I should use? I am targeting the CPC Series 1 type ala... https://www.alliedelec.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?SKU=5121105&MPN= 206 708-1&R=5121105&SEARCH=5121105&DESC 6708-1 Thanks in advance. Glenn ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: E-Bus and switching
From: "PaulR" <prose(at)panhandle.rr.com>
Date: Jan 16, 2009
Jay, I appreciate your answer, but if I'm reading the Z-11 diagram correctly, when I switch the master contactor off to reduce the load, I still have to flip a switch to turn the alternate power on to the e-bus. What I'm suggesting is that switch that gets moved after shutting down the master is simply a switch to change where the power comes from. Single Pole double throw, I believe is the terminology. -------- Paul Rose N417PR (res) RV-9A Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225144#225144 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: E-Bus and switching
Date: Jan 16, 2009
From: jaybannist(at)cs.com
Paul, As I said before, I am not an expert in these things, but here is my take on it:? If you have a need to activate the e-bus, I would assume that something in the main bus system had gone wrong, possibly already de-energizing the contactor.? It could be a blown crowbar or even failure of the master switch. The second switch eliminates that single point of failure.? The first action would be to flip the e-bus switch, then decide if you need to turn the master off.? I would hesitate to combine an emergency switch with one that might be involved in whatever problem is occuring. Jay in Dallas -----Original Message----- From: PaulR <prose(at)panhandle.rr.com> Sent: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 1:14 pm Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: E-Bus and switching Jay, I appreciate your answer, but if I'm reading the Z-11 diagram correctly, when I switch the master contactor off to reduce the load, I still have to flip a switch to turn the alternate power on to the e-bus. What I'm suggesting is that switch that gets moved after shutting down the master is simply a switch to change where the power comes from. Single Pole double throw, I believe is the terminology. -------- Paul Rose N417PR (res) RV-9A Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225144#225144 ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2009
Subject: Z-11 + aux battery and diode bridge rectifier
From: Paul Eckenroth <N509RV(at)eckenroth.com>
Bob Thanks for the reply. The aux battery supports the Ebus on it's own which implies that the battery is sufficient. It is only when the starter is engaged that the voltage is pulled down and the EFIS reboots so there must be a connection to the main battery somewhere that is only activated when the starter is engaged. I'll disconnect the diodes and run the Ebus only from the aux battery and see if that makes a difference. Any other suggestions are welcome. Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
Subject: Re: E-Bus and switching
Date: Jan 16, 2009
The diode allows the e-bus to get power from both the main and aux batteries and prevent backfeeding the aux battery to the main bus. The e-bus switch controls the feed from the aux battery to the e-bus and is limited to something like 8-10 amps that a switch can easily handle. If you replace the diode with a crossfeed switch, it will need to stay closed to allow main power to feed the e-bus. If you also have the e-bus switch closed a failure in the main battery/bus would start sucking power from the aux battery. If you don't notice it fast enough you could drain the aux battery. If the e-bus switch is open instead, then the ebus will lose power until you kill the master, kill the crossfeed and close the e-bus switch. With the diode all the critical stuff on the e-bus maintains power without forcing you to take the right actions, in the right sequence at the right time. Why break a sweat when a <$30 diode prevents it? Regards, Greg Young > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On > Behalf Of PaulR > Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:14 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: E-Bus and switching > > --> > > Jay, > I appreciate your answer, but if I'm reading the Z-11 diagram > correctly, when I switch the master contactor off to reduce > the load, I still have to flip a switch to turn the alternate > power on to the e-bus. What I'm suggesting is that switch > that gets moved after shutting down the master is simply a > switch to change where the power comes from. Single Pole > double throw, I believe is the terminology. > > -------- > Paul Rose > N417PR (res) > RV-9A > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: E-Bus and switching
Date: Jan 16, 2009
On 16-Jan-09, at 11:36 , PaulR wrote: > > > > I'm in the process of plagerizing Bob's Z-11 for my VFR 9A and have > a question for the group. I'm pretty new to this wiring business so > please be gentle. I've done the search thing to no avail. > > Is there a reason that the e-bus couldn't be powered through a > switch like a 1-3 with power from either the main bus or the always > hot bus feeding the e-bus? This would negate the need for the > diode, I think. I suspect that this switch would remove main bus power before it supplied the hot bus power. Thus the e-bus would lose power during the transition, which would cause any devices powered from that bus to reboot. That may or may not be important, depending on exactly what you have on that bus. -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (Grounded) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: E-Bus and switching
Date: Jan 16, 2009
On 16-Jan-09, at 21:03 , Kevin Horton wrote: > On 16-Jan-09, at 11:36 , PaulR wrote: > >> > >> >> I'm in the process of plagerizing Bob's Z-11 for my VFR 9A and have >> a question for the group. I'm pretty new to this wiring business >> so please be gentle. I've done the search thing to no avail. >> >> Is there a reason that the e-bus couldn't be powered through a >> switch like a 1-3 with power from either the main bus or the always >> hot bus feeding the e-bus? This would negate the need for the >> diode, I think. > > > I suspect that this switch would remove main bus power before it > supplied the hot bus power. Thus the e-bus would lose power during > the transition, which would cause any devices powered from that bus > to reboot. That may or may not be important, depending on exactly > what you have on that bus. Drat - I hit Send too soon. Also, this arrangement makes the switch a single failure that can kill all power sources to the e-bus. This may or may not be a problem, depending on the consequences of losing all items on the e-bus. -- Kevin Horton Ottawa, Canada ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: E-Bus and switching
At 01:14 PM 1/16/2009, you wrote: > >Jay, >I appreciate your answer, but if I'm reading the Z-11 diagram correctly, >when I switch the master contactor off to reduce the load, I still >have to flip a switch to turn the alternate power on to the >e-bus. What I'm suggesting is that switch that gets moved after >shutting down the master is simply a switch to change where the >power comes from. Single Pole double throw, I believe is the terminology. Sources for the endurance bus was crafted so that no single failure (like the single spdt switch) would deprive the e-bus of power . . . and no single component failure has multiple effects on system performance. Some folks have wired as you've suggested . . . but there IS a reason for the architecture as published. It's your airplane. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AMP/Tyco Style Connectors
At 01:11 PM 1/16/2009, you wrote: >Im brand new to these type of connectors. Couple of questions > >Ok, once I know which type of receptacle/socket >set I want, the description tells me shell size and no. of contacts.. > >1. How do I know what wire size it accommodates? It's in the specs for the connnector. Go to the manufacturer's website and get the specs. >2. How do I know what size/type pins to >buy to fit the connector? How wide of a variation exists? >3. How do I know which pins to buy to fit my wire size? >4. There seems to be a lot of moving >parts with this stuff. Do they sell entire >assemblies where I just crimp and go? Most military spec'd connectors come with a full compliment of pins in the bag. Most commercial connectors are sold as shells and loose pins. Getting the right pins comes from reading the mfgr's specs. For example, see the catalogs from ITT-Cannon at: http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Connectors/ITT_Cannon/ and dsubs from Positronics at: http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Connectors/Positronic/HDC_Series.pdf > > >I suppose I could just drill a 1 hole in the >firewall and wrap some fire-sleeve around >everything and call it a day, but I want to look professional. > > >Im sure there are hidden codes somewhere Im >just not looking. Excuse my ignorance. > > >An example. > >I would like to buy a coupling to mate 4 >contacts which are all 12-14 AWG wire. How do I >determine which of these 3 million connectors I >should use? I am targeting the CPC Series 1 type ala > >https://www.alliedelec.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?SKU=5121105&MPN 6708-1&R=5121105&SEARCH=5121105&DESC 6708-1 To come through the firewall? The only connectors qualified to bring wires through firewalls are stainless steel in construction and probably more expensive than you want to consider. The BIG guys bring stuff through the firewall like these pictures taken on the Bonanza and Baron assembly line: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Tech_Tips/Firewall_Penetration/firewall.html Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ----------------------------------------) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: ELT location
Date: Jan 17, 2009
Although this is not a direct Electrical related issue, the RV List is not so active and there are many RV builders and flyers around this one, so Bob will forgive me for posting it here. Van's sells a sub-kit intended for the installation of the AmeriKing ELT on 2-place side-by-side RV's (7 and 9), and its instructions place it in the tail, right behind the baggage compartment aft bulkhead. IMHO that is not the best place to install this ELT because its capability of voice transmission in case one survives a crash is somehow defeated. You would have to unscrew more than 20 screws to remove that bulkhead corrugated cover to reach the ELT. Where does the 7 and 9 gang have installed the ELT? Inside the baggage compartment, at an easy reach of the pilot? And how about the ELT's external antenna? Carlos ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: ELT location
At 06:27 AM 1/17/2009, you wrote: > > >Although this is not a direct Electrical related issue, the RV List is not >so active and there are many RV builders and flyers around this one, so Bob >will forgive me for posting it here. > >Van's sells a sub-kit intended for the installation of the AmeriKing ELT on >2-place side-by-side RV's (7 and 9), and its instructions place it in the >tail, right behind the baggage compartment aft bulkhead. > >IMHO that is not the best place to install this ELT because its capability >of voice transmission in case one survives a crash is somehow defeated. You >would have to unscrew more than 20 screws to remove that bulkhead corrugated >cover to reach the ELT. > >Where does the 7 and 9 gang have installed the ELT? >Inside the baggage compartment, at an easy reach of the pilot? >And how about the ELT's external antenna? It's an entirely appropriate question . . . to which I would offer the following . . . The optimized location for ELT installation was picked almost 50 years ago as the area of an airplane most likely to survive a crash. Rearward in the tailcone with the antenna just forward of structure in the vertical fin. Given that non-gps aided, beacon ELTs are of substantive value in only a small percentage of rescues, it seem that the "voice transmission" capability is of dubious value. If one assumes worst case conditions, what ever value the ELT has to offer will be protected if the legacy installation protocols are observed. After you've wadded your airplane up into a ball, the existence of a non-gps aided ELT seems to serve little purpose other than to comply with a rule. Anyone on board the aircraft is capable of exploiting the voice transmission feature would be better off using the stuff that should be in everybody's flight bag. This equipment is accessible to survivors without to disassembly of of the airplane. http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Vacination_for_Dark_Panel_Syndrom.pdf It's interesting to note that the AmeriKing folks earned themselves unfavorable noticed by the FCC when on several occasions were asked to stop clear field emissions to 406 Mhz rescue satellites. http://www.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2008/DA-08-402A1.html We have no first hand knowledge of how this all came about. It's curious that anyone developing new hardware would not be 100.00% sure of operational compliance in the screen-room before venturing out to do COORDINATED, open air testing of any kind. Tweaking the whiskers of the sleeping tiger is a risky pastime. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Speaking of GPS . . .
I bought a TomTom One about a year ago and I've had occasion to test it in the aviation environment on several occasions. I've found that these inexpensive receivers will find satellites and acquire lock at high speeds and at locations many hundreds of miles from shutdown. Of course, their terrestrial based knowledge is of limited value . . . but perhaps not useless. If you've got one of these amazing navigators, try it in your airplane. Before launch, be sure to cancel any previously entered request to find an address. After you're airborne the software will be frantically searching for new recommended routes as you cross roadways at strange angles at high speeds. For the TomTom One, it's impossible to get its attention while in the dither mode. But if you're in the map mode, you can set up to show ground speed and current course over the ground. Further, even at speeds of 400 mph or more, you will see names of cities under you flash onto the screen as the little critter works to keep up with the transonic automobile and its driver. My experiments have shown that like the Magellan GPS2000 I wrote about in Sport Aviation 12 years ago, the $low$ GPS products are still showing some utility as multi-taskers in both terrestrial and aerial navigation. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------) ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) ( appearance of being right . . . ) ( ) ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ELT location
From: "bcollinsmn" <bob(at)rvbuildershotline.com>
Date: Jan 17, 2009
We also kicked this around on the RV List in november. I don't have an exact link but I referenced the discussion here: http://rvbuildershotline.com/archives/2008/20081122.html The original question I had, however, wasn't so much about the unit, it was about the antenna. Many RVers tuck it around the rollbar, which seemed to preclude a decent ground plane to me (if I understand ground plane correctly). The general consensus seemed to be, don't worry about it, it's not going to work anyway, which seemed an odd position for people who are so meticulous about the possibility of corrosion rotting their metal airplanes in record time or any of the other million things with little chance of happening that we obsess over. [Laughing] Here's what I ended up doing, by the way. http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/2008/11/installing-heres-where-my-remains-are.html I had intended to run the antenna up a bulkhead support as indicated in that latter link and that have the antenna up top just afte of another bulkhead. Since then, i've bought a Dynon D100 and it recommends the remote compass in that same location. So now I'm wondering if the antenna will interfere with the th Dynon magnetometer? -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV-7A (#&^ fiberglass!) http://rvbuildershotline.com Day job: http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225286#225286 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Subject: Re: Speaking of GPS . . .
Date: Jan 17, 2009
Bob, I purchased a Garmin Nuvi 755T last year in anticipation of some road trips to places previously unknown. It is a really nifty (unquantified, I know) little device. Has worked flawlessly to simply get me from point "A" to point "B" on many occasions. Also useful to locate a specific brand outlet, e.g. closest Ace Hardware, closest WAMU, etc. Its ability to do a rapid lock-on is amazing having worked with a number of aviation and other simple units. In playing with it, I find that it has a "cross-country" mode for use on foot or bicycle. This mode looks quite promising for supplemental use in an aircraft. Unfortunately, I have not had an opportunity to try it yet, but when I do I'll let folks know how it works. BTW, you can change the icon which represents you and your location. Can be something simple like a triangle or other shape. Can be a typical road vehicle: generic car, SUV, pickup. Garmin also has their "Garmin Garage" where you can go to download more personalized vehicles like tow truck, EMS vehicle, police car, bicycle, running shoes, etc. They also have AIRCRAFT. Mostly generic such as SE Low wing, SE high wing, twin, helicopter. For Christmas they had a family of seasonal icons: sled, colored light, ornament, tree and a neat, colorful little biplane. The last being my Advent Season choice. For my regular use I selected the lovely little Spitfire complete with D- Day stripes. Check six, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL (99.999% done) Essentially complete. Running Tests & Final Inspections. 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 On Jan 17, 2009, at 9:03, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > I bought a TomTom One about a year ago and I've > had occasion to test it in the aviation environment > on several occasions. I've found that these inexpensive > receivers will find satellites and acquire lock at high speeds > and at locations many hundreds of miles from shutdown. > > Of course, their terrestrial based knowledge is of > limited value . . . but perhaps not useless. If you've > got one of these amazing navigators, try it in your > airplane. Before launch, be sure to cancel any previously > entered request to find an address. After you're airborne > the software will be frantically searching for new recommended > routes as you cross roadways at strange angles at high > speeds. For the TomTom One, it's impossible to get its > attention while in the dither mode. > > But if you're in the map mode, you can set up to show > ground speed and current course over the ground. Further, > even at speeds of 400 mph or more, you will see names > of cities under you flash onto the screen as the > little critter works to keep up with the transonic > automobile and its driver. > > My experiments have shown that like the Magellan > GPS2000 I wrote about in Sport Aviation 12 years ago, > the $low$ GPS products are still showing some utility > as multi-taskers in both terrestrial and aerial > navigation. > > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------) > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking ) > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial ) > ( appearance of being right . . . ) > ( ) > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- ) > ---------------------------------------- > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: How to test new circuits using battery and protect
circuit?
From: "jhclarkfl" <jhclarkfl(at)cox.net>
Date: Jan 17, 2009
I have wired my wing lights and my heated pitot tube. I will soon be installing the wiring in the fuselage. My question is how do I power up and test circuits and/or systems from my battery and still have short protection? Is there a device or alternate power supply that I can use and be able to select some circuit breaker value to protect the wires? Thanks -------- Jack Clark RV-8A Fuselage http://www.mykitlog.com/jackclark/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225334#225334 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Boddicker <trumanst(at)neitel.net>
Subject: D-sub connections
Date: Jan 17, 2009
Bob, Is there a comic book that explains how to make a d-sub crimp. How to use the tool, etc. I have looked over your site, no joy. Thanks, Kevin Boddicker Tri Q 200 N7868B 115.3 hours Luana, IA. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2009
From: "David M." <ainut(at)hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Speaking of GPS . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2009
Subject: ELT location
From: James H Nelson <rv9jim(at)juno.com>
Carlos, I have a "9" with the slider canopy. I mounted my "required" ELT on the frame just behind the pass. seat. I use a Ameri king (the redish colored one) and using the fame as the main mount, I ran the antenna back through it and mounted it to the top of the cover that encloses the rudder cable in the baggage compartment. This lets me remove the whole unit easily if I need to in the future. Some day there will be a reasonable 406 mz unit and I will put it in the tail cone behind the baggage compartment. There are lots of problems with antenna placement. First, there is a very good chance I will flip over. This places the antenna under the airframe. The rudder will protect the antenna to a point. That may break it off. I placed the antenna inside as my pix shows. Not the best but it will work. The very low power of the transmitter leaves much to be desired but its there. I have a PLB that I carry in my survival vest. If I can get out or at least put the PLB out side of the airframe, it has a built in gps so they can find me fairly quickly. I hope that gives you some ideas. Jim Nelson N15JN RV9-A ____________________________________________________________ Free information - Learn about Wheel Chair options. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1lvVIEGFiAbDHEmzQDSCNQgCEqYbyo3hXmSwmEWNo3D5JLj/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2009
From: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: ELT location
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Date: Jan 18, 2009
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>


January 02, 2009 - January 18, 2009

AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ij