AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-iq
April 28, 2009 - May 13, 2009
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ECU - EFI - Dual Battery Bus - Schottky Diode |
?
At 10:18 PM 4/27/2009, you wrote:
>Hello, Hello,
>
>Wondering if anyone has tried using dual Schottky diodes to power
>fuel injectors and ignition coils from two batteries ?
>
>I'm looking for a 2 battery system with fuel injectors and ignition
>coils fed directly from both batteries.
>
>If one battery fails the other battery automatically powers
>injectors & coils (and is isolated from bad battery by Schottky).
>
>Any thoughts ?
That's the idea behind the power distribution
architecture described in Figure Z-19 at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z19-RBA1.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z19-RBA2.pdf
The drawing suggests bridge rectifier diodes as the
low parts count solution . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wiring_Technique/diode_wiring.jpg
. . . but diodes of your choice may be substituted if
sufficiently rated. One example among several can be
seen here:
http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9001/IM9001-700A.pdf
If you've not studied the philosophy of failure tolerant
architecture and fabrication of electrical systems, may I
suggest a copy of the AeroElectric Connection (in particular
chapter 17) and a running conversation with the learned
folks here on the List will assist you in moving your
project forward with confidence and understanding.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Laurence" <dr.laurence(at)mbdi.org> |
| Subject: | ECU - EFI - Dual Battery Bus - Schottky Diode ? |
Mike
Check with a company called SDS. http://www.sdsefi.com/ They sell an
electronic fuel injection system. One has been their RV6A for a few years.
I know that it's narrowing pretty tightly with using a Schotty, but, can't
hurt to ask.
Peter
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike West
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 11:19 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: ECU - EFI - Dual Battery Bus - Schottky Diode ?
Hello, Hello,
Wondering if anyone has tried using dual Schottky diodes to power fuel
injectors and ignition coils from two batteries ?
I'm looking for a 2 battery system with fuel injectors and ignition coils
fed directly from both batteries.
If one battery fails the other battery automatically powers injectors &
coils (and is isolated from bad battery by Schottky).
Any thoughts ?
Thanks,
-Mike
PDF attached
_____
Windows LiveT SkyDriveT: Get 25 GB of free online storage. Check it out.
<http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_042009>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins(at)gmail.com> |
This is a re-post from the Rotary Engines list, by Tracy Crook, owner of
Real World Solutions, in response to a builder whose ECU seemed to reprogram
itself. It is very interesting to me because I am half way through trouble
shooting a magneticly induced noise problem (see www.samhoskins.bolgspot.com
).
My experience so far indicates that electrical noise in various parts of
> the electrical system is the cause of the 'spontaneous' programming errors.
> This is a long subject that I am going to have to address. It has to do
> with the physical arrangement of the aircraft electrical system, not an
> error in connections. There is no one simple fix for this kind of problem
> which is caused by builders having no guidlines on how to avoid this kind
> of
> thing. Bad radio installation practices or poor antenna design or
> installation can also be a nightmare to explain or fix.
>
> I talked to a number of vendors of aircraft systems at SnF that are having
> a
> hell of a time addressing this. Everything from auto pilots to Glass
> cockpit makers are having this problem. Builders always conclude that we
> are passing the buck when we say that electrical noise is the problem.
> And
> that's just a polite way of saying that "Your electrical system and layout
> sucks". Even very knowledgable builders can fall into this problem.
> Mike
> Wills made a technically perfect system with a Single Point ground scheme
> which is theoretically the right thing to do but the single point ground
> had
> a very high noise impedance due to the long distance between it and the
> main
> noise damper (the battery).
>
> Here is a VERY abreviated guideline. If you do a single point ground
> system, make it at (or very near) the negative terminal of the battery and
> ground the airframe close to it. Have independant power feeds from the
> battery positive terminal for the noise producing things and the noise
> sensitive things. Do these two things and noise problems will be rare.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | What a glide ratio! |
I once glided 12 statue miles in an RV-6A from 9500 feet, engine totally
out, prop not windmilling at a nominal indicated airspeed of 87 mph. I had
two choices both 12 miles distant, one of which required a 120 deg turn to
the left - but, it was downwind and the one I selected (that Garmin 195 with
its nearest button repaid all of its cost on that day). Approx 8 - 9
minutes later I arrived off the upwind end of the runway with sufficient
altitude to do a 360 deg turn and two hard "S" turns to bleed off altitude.
Still crossed the fence around 100 mph but having a 4000 ft runway made that
a non- factor.
As best I could calculate from the altitude, distance, etc I came up with a
glide ratio of 9.8:1. Slightly short of the 10:1 advertised by Van, but
then my glide speeds were undoubtedly not optimum over the entire period.
However, didn't collect wind data other than knowing it was downwind. That
was my experience. No damage to anything but my nerves and seat cushion.
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
<http://www.andersonee.com> http://www.andersonee.com
<http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html>
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
http://www.flyrotary.com/
<http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm>
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
<http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html>
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
McAllister
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What a glide ratio!
Hi all,
Well I am curious as to what the glide ratio actually is. On listening to
the tapes he was 18 miles out at 7000 feet. The field elevation was 1500
feet so that gave him 5500' to play with. According to my rough
calculations that is about 18:1 which seems pretty high. Tail wind perhaps
?
>From listening to the tapes everyone kept there cool, quite an impressive
display of airman ship.
Paul
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 3267 (20080714) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What a glide ratio! |
I read about this landing but didn't pay any attention to the airport or
location. But now I realize that I've spent a lot of time polishing the
ridges all around that area racing sailplanes. Even with a 40:1 glide
ration, trying to find a field from 1500'AGL gets you heart racing in
that area. One valley will have flat farm land, the very next will not
have a enough cleared space to park a car. Much more of the latter in
that particular 10 mile circle.
Anyone who has driven the PA Turnpike through the Bedford area pretty
much gets the picture. Not a good place for setting one down at night.
The roads are definitely not a good option there. He's lucky to have
not gone dead stick and very good to have kept his cool.
Thanks Bob
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> Audio track for an engine-out emergency that
> had a happy ending . . .
>
> http://media.aopa.org/mp3/n613jm.mp3
>
> at this airport . . .
>
> http://www.airnav.com/airport/KAOO
>
> Airplane was a Columbia built in 2006 . . .
>
> * http://tinyurl.com/ddveqa*
> *
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Anything wrong mixing electrical and pneumatic connections? |
| From: | rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US |
Anyone have any downside comments on mixing electrical and pneumatic
connections on the same connector?
Plan is to mix 8 electrical
and 3 pneumatic on port wing connector, and 6 electrical and 1
pneumatic on starboard wing connector.
The Anderson power pole
connectors are reasonably water resistant if you seal the wire side with
thin non corrosive silicone.
Want to teather the wing side
connector with 2 very thin bungee cords to root rib flange. Can easily
extend bungee to connect with a 6" wing to fuse gap.
See:
http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album162&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
Thanking all in advance
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ECU - EFI - Dual Battery Bus - Schottky Diode ? |
| From: | "Glaeser, Dennis A" <dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com> |
I'm doing that with my Subaru engine. I do have dual ignition switches,
but when both are on for takeoffs and landings, it is exactly what you
describe.
My architecture is essentially Z-19.
Dennis Glaeser
-----------------------------------------------------------------
From: Mike West
Hello
Wondering if anyone has tried using dual Schottky diodes to power fuel
injectors and ignition coils from two batteries ?
I'm looking for a 2 battery system with fuel injectors and ignition
coils fed directly from both batteries.
If one battery fails the other battery automatically powers injectors &
coils (and is isolated from bad battery by Schottky).
Any thoughts ?
Thanks
-Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Grounds & noise |
. . . Even very knowledgeable builders can fall into this problem. Mike
Wills made a technically perfect system with a Single Point ground scheme
which is theoretically the right thing to do but the single point ground had
a very high noise impedance due to the long distance between it and the main
noise damper (the battery).
Here is a VERY abbreviated guideline. If you do a single point ground
system, make it at (or very near) the negative terminal of the battery and
ground the airframe close to it. Have independent power feeds from the
battery positive terminal for the noise producing things and the noise
sensitive things. Do these two things and noise problems will be rare.
I wish it were that simple. The battery's ability to shunt bus
voltage perturbations to ground is very limited. I recall seeing
a shunt impedance versus frequency plots of various batteries
over the years and recall noting meager noise mitigation effects.
If I can find some of those plots, I'll post them.
I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of antagonist/victim
situations encountered by the OBAM aircraft community can be
solved by an investigation of the DO-160/Mil-STD-704 characteristics
of the major players.
704 says . . .
(1) The bus is loaded with certain kinds of crap.
(2) Learn to control it at practical levels consistent
with state of the art . . .
(3) and live with the rest of it.
160 says . . .
(1) the electrical environment (conducted and radiated)
is loaded with certain kinds of crap.
(2) Control thy emissions to practical limits established
by our state of the art . . .
(2) Expect a certain amount of smelly stuff to be left
over . . . learn to live with it.
While there may be many an anecdotal report of success
for the re-arrangement of wires, ground locations,
filters, shields, etc. etc. they are seldom if ever
joined by a qualitative and quantified description
of the noise, propagation mode and the simple-ideas
that led to an artful recipe for success. Most often,
there's a sort of "swaptronics" approach to stirring
the stew of ideas and parts until the problem goes away
or at least becomes tolerable.
I'm not suggesting that folks should not experiment
to what ever amount of $time$ they're willing to
spend. I will suggest that apparent successes that
fall out of random experiments are at risk for not
becoming recipes for success. I.e. repeatable
experiments. I will also suggest that if your system
is assembled per the recommendations of any of the
Z-figures that the probability of having a "704
issue" is small. This leaves newly discovered victims
with their "160 shorts" down around their ankles.
I'll see if I can find that data on batteries-as-filters.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Anything wrong mixing electrical and pneumatic |
connections?
At 11:44 AM 4/28/2009, you wrote:
Anyone have any downside comments on mixing electrical and pneumatic
connections on the same connector?
Plan is to mix 8 electrical and 3 pneumatic on port wing
connector, and 6 electrical and 1 pneumatic on starboard wing connector.
The Anderson power pole connectors are reasonably water resistant if
you seal the wire side with thin non corrosive silicone.
Want to tether the wing side connector with 2 very thin bungee cords
to root rib flange. Can easily extend bungee to connect with a 6"
wing to fuse gap.
See:
http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album162&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
Thanking all in advance
How many times over the lifetime of the airplane do you
expect to open these connections?
You're about to conduct the grand experiment. You have
a real life test going on connector technologies, assy
techniques and modifications to off-the-shelf products
to satisfy design goals. I'm not sure that the germane
question speaks to "mixing electrical and pneumatic"
connections in the same connector. You're plowing new
ground here. The experience-base from which learned
advice can be gleaned is small to non-existent. You're
on track to becoming the expert on these process and
techniques. Let us know how it works out.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Anything wrong mixing electrical and pneumatic |
connections?
| From: | rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US |
Hi Bob
"> How many times over the lifetime of the
airplane do you
> expect to open these connections?"
****Many! I have both 27 foot span short wings and 48 foot span
long wings. Early on will probably trailer to go flying since the hangar I
am building in is at an inappropriate field for first 40 hours. After
that, wings will be pulled at least every year, probably more. 4 pins and
my two wing connectors and wings come right off. The wings are dry and
haveneat quick connect aileron and flap attachments that require no
loose hardware.
> You're about to conduct the grand
experiment. You have
> a real life test going on connector
technologies, assy
> techniques and modifications to
off-the-shelf products
> to satisfy design goals. I'm not sure
that the germane
> question speaks to "mixing electrical and
pneumatic"
> connections in the same connector. You're
plowing new
> ground here. The experience-base from which learned
> advice can be gleaned is small to non-existent. You're
> on track to becoming the expert on these process and
>
techniques. Let us know how it works out.
****I will post
how things work out. I now have close to 10 years experiance using
Anderson power pole and Sermos modular connectors flying electric models.
Wet grass and the ocassional salt water landing has never failed a
connector! The only failure I had was when breaking new ground and pulling
continuous 40 plus amps (I am sure plenty more on start up of 3 phase DC
motor) on a 3/4 horsepower monster, and the connector began to show signs
of heating. At the field that day I just bent contacts a little harder
against one another, and it worked fine for the day. I however don't use
them for more than half their rating now and have never had another
problem. I parallel two connectors if it is a critical connection. I never
had a connector come undone in RC flight, but close after having a mid air
one day. For the Europa I think it prudent to have some posative locking
though. The buckles I am implimenting work great! iIam using them to hold
my removable nav/com antenna and cable holder in place. See:
http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album272&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
Glider folk use the 5 connection pneumatic connector with great
sucess. They remove wings all the time.
Ron Parigoris
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re Mixing electrical and pneumatic connections? |
>
>Glider folk use the 5 connection pneumatic connector with great
>sucess. They remove wings all the time.
Understand. Looks interesting. Hope you'll do a
how-to article for the website if you're still
happy with these in a year or so!
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | What a glide ratio! |
For anyone who has flown to Happy Valley they know the hills around
there require 2000+ for general MSA around the field. Below that you
start bumping into things. That would mean he could not have sunk below
2k until he was over the ridge right in front of the field. As I recall
the best approach to stay clear of pot holes is from the NW which
follows the contour of the valley. Again, impossible to determine at
night. IAF is charted at 4300. Even if you don't hit something below
2000 in this area, I'll guarantee you'll never see the field.
Hell of a glide to travel that far and still make it over the field
ridge above 2000.
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed
Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 9:51 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: What a glide ratio!
I once glided 12 statue miles in an RV-6A from 9500 feet, engine totally
out, prop not windmilling at a nominal indicated airspeed of 87 mph. I
had two choices both 12 miles distant, one of which required a 120 deg
turn to the left - but, it was downwind and the one I selected (that
Garmin 195 with its nearest button repaid all of its cost on that day).
Approx 8 - 9 minutes later I arrived off the upwind end of the runway
with sufficient altitude to do a 360 deg turn and two hard "S" turns to
bleed off altitude. Still crossed the fence around 100 mph but having a
4000 ft runway made that a non- factor.
As best I could calculate from the altitude, distance, etc I came up
with a glide ratio of 9.8:1. Slightly short of the 10:1 advertised by
Van, but then my glide speeds were undoubtedly not optimum over the
entire period. However, didn't collect wind data other than knowing it
was downwind. That was my experience. No damage to anything but my
nerves and seat cushion.
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
<http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html>
http://www.flyrotary.com/
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
<http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm>
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
McAllister
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What a glide ratio!
Hi all,
Well I am curious as to what the glide ratio actually is. On listening
to the tapes he was 18 miles out at 7000 feet. The field elevation was
1500 feet so that gave him 5500' to play with. According to my rough
calculations that is about 18:1 which seems pretty high. Tail wind
perhaps ?
>From listening to the tapes everyone kept there cool, quite an
impressive display of airman ship.
Paul
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature database 3267 (20080714) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ECU - EFI - Dual Battery Bus - Schottky Diode ? |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Perihelion Design has sold a bunch of dual Schottkys to do exactly what you want.
See:
www.periheliondesign.com/downloads/powerdeuceschottkymanual.pdf
"Amateurs built the Ark, professionals built the Titanic."
--Anonymous
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242053#242053
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "greg issitt" <greg.issitt(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | E-MAGS, P-MAGS, CDI QUESTION |
Hi there,
Is there any reference material on this board on how the different ignition
systems function? I am just finishing Bob Nuckoll's book and am starting to
get a wiring plan together for my Aerovee powered Sonex. I realize I don't
know what kind of ignition system the Aerovee engine has, and that I would
like to learn more about the differences in all the mag systems used in
aircraft.
Thanks for any help,
Greg Issitt
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | EXP2BUS and non-functioning alternator |
| From: | Ian <ixb(at)videotron.ca> |
Hello,
I'm in the primary flight testing phase with my RV-9A. I have an
EXP2BUS and a 40A alternator with an internal regulator which came from
AeroSport Power in Vancouver.
I've never seen the alternator charging strongly, although my test pilot
thinks he saw 20A the other day. I see no amps at any engine speed.
I believe I have everything connected correctly and wondered if anyone
on the list had a similar experience.
Any advice on what to check and in what sequence, would be appreciated.
This is my first Matronics post, and hopefully my new-to-Canadian-skies
RV-9A will be able to feed itself with electric power with your help.
Thanks,
Ian Brown,
Bromont,
Quebec
PS: The belt IS tight, but not too tight!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EXP2BUS and non-functioning alternator |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
What's the bus voltage? If you see values above 12.5V your alternator is
putting out some power. If it's above 14V, it sounds like completely
normal output.
I'm not very familiar with the EXP2BUS.. Where in the circuit is current
being measured. Does the system use a shunt or a hall effect sensor?
Regards,
Matt-
>
> Hello,
> I'm in the primary flight testing phase with my RV-9A. I have an
> EXP2BUS and a 40A alternator with an internal regulator which came from
> AeroSport Power in Vancouver.
>
> I've never seen the alternator charging strongly, although my test pilot
> thinks he saw 20A the other day. I see no amps at any engine speed.
>
> I believe I have everything connected correctly and wondered if anyone
> on the list had a similar experience.
>
> Any advice on what to check and in what sequence, would be appreciated.
>
> This is my first Matronics post, and hopefully my new-to-Canadian-skies
> RV-9A will be able to feed itself with electric power with your help.
>
> Thanks,
> Ian Brown,
> Bromont,
> Quebec
> PS: The belt IS tight, but not too tight!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: E-MAGS, P-MAGS, CDI QUESTION |
At 09:01 AM 4/30/2009, you wrote:
Hi there,
Is there any reference material on this board on how the different
ignition systems function? I am just finishing Bob Nuckoll's book and
am starting to get a wiring plan together for my Aerovee powered
Sonex. I realize I don't know what kind of ignition system the
Aerovee engine has, and that I would like to learn more about the
differences in all the mag systems used in aircraft.
A short visit to the AeroVee web information
doesn't give us much detail however, it's
almost a certainty that this aero conversion
of the popular VW engine comes with a well
defined ignition system.
On the last page of their sample installation
manual at:
http://www.sonexaircraft.com/support/AeroVee_sample.pdf
we see wiring diagrams for dual ignition. One is
a "magneto" type powered from the flywheel. The
other is a "battery" type powered from the ship's
electrical system. What you see is what you get.
You wont have any bolt on options common to
other aircraft engines.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EXP2BUS and non-functioning alternator |
At 09:37 AM 4/30/2009, you wrote:
>
>Hello,
>I'm in the primary flight testing phase with my RV-9A. I have an
>EXP2BUS and a 40A alternator with an internal regulator which came from
>AeroSport Power in Vancouver.
>
>I've never seen the alternator charging strongly, although my test pilot
>thinks he saw 20A the other day. I see no amps at any engine speed.
>
>I believe I have everything connected correctly and wondered if anyone
>on the list had a similar experience.
>
>Any advice on what to check and in what sequence, would be appreciated.
>
>This is my first Matronics post, and hopefully my new-to-Canadian-skies
>RV-9A will be able to feed itself with electric power with your help.
What's your bus voltage? Where does your instrumentation
read Amps? Battery? Alternator output?
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EXP2BUS and non-functioning alternator |
| From: | Ian <ixb(at)videotron.ca> |
Actually I am supposed to have amps being measured on the alternator
output with a shunt, for the Van's Aircraft ammeter, and with an
induction coil for the Rocky Mountain EIS. Both agree that I'm not
putting out amps, and the system is not charging at all. If I run on my
Dynon EFIS I get quite a good measure of battery voltage, and it goes
down steadily whether the engine is running or not.
I guess I may be a bit premature in addressing this list since there is
an anomaly I have to check first. The alternator warning light does not
come on at all. Any suggestions on why this might be would be
appreciated. It could be a simple mis-wire since I just started running
the engine recently, and had the battery on a trickle charger constantly
until about a week ago. Hopefully the two are symptoms of the same
problem.
Ian
>
> At 09:37 AM 4/30/2009, you wrote:
> >
> >Hello,
> >I'm in the primary flight testing phase with my RV-9A. I have an
> >EXP2BUS and a 40A alternator with an internal regulator which came from
> >AeroSport Power in Vancouver.
> >
> >I've never seen the alternator charging strongly, although my test pilot
> >thinks he saw 20A the other day. I see no amps at any engine speed.
> >
> >I believe I have everything connected correctly and wondered if anyone
> >on the list had a similar experience.
> >
> >Any advice on what to check and in what sequence, would be appreciated.
> >
> >This is my first Matronics post, and hopefully my new-to-Canadian-skies
> >RV-9A will be able to feed itself with electric power with your help.
>
> What's your bus voltage? Where does your instrumentation
> read Amps? Battery? Alternator output?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------)
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ECU - EFI - Dual Battery Bus - Schottky |
Diode ?
| From: | simon(at)synchdes.com |
Eric, the anonymous quote below is fabulous!
Simon
>
>
> Perihelion Design has sold a bunch of dual Schottkys to do exactly what
> you want. See:
>
> www.periheliondesign.com/downloads/powerdeuceschottkymanual.pdf
>
>
> "Amateurs built the Ark, professionals built the Titanic."
> --Anonymous
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones(at)charter.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242053#242053
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EXP2BUS and non-functioning alternator |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Do the people that produce the EXP2BUS provide a troubleshooting guide?
That's what I'd start on (after verifying to the best of my ability that
the system is wired as designed).
Regards,
Matt-
>
> Actually I am supposed to have amps being measured on the alternator
> output with a shunt, for the Van's Aircraft ammeter, and with an
> induction coil for the Rocky Mountain EIS. Both agree that I'm not
> putting out amps, and the system is not charging at all. If I run on my
> Dynon EFIS I get quite a good measure of battery voltage, and it goes
> down steadily whether the engine is running or not.
>
> I guess I may be a bit premature in addressing this list since there is
> an anomaly I have to check first. The alternator warning light does not
> come on at all. Any suggestions on why this might be would be
> appreciated. It could be a simple mis-wire since I just started running
> the engine recently, and had the battery on a trickle charger constantly
> until about a week ago. Hopefully the two are symptoms of the same
> problem.
>
> Ian
>
>>
>>
>> At 09:37 AM 4/30/2009, you wrote:
>> >
>> >Hello,
>> >I'm in the primary flight testing phase with my RV-9A. I have an
>> >EXP2BUS and a 40A alternator with an internal regulator which came from
>> >AeroSport Power in Vancouver.
>> >
>> >I've never seen the alternator charging strongly, although my test
>> pilot
>> >thinks he saw 20A the other day. I see no amps at any engine speed.
>> >
>> >I believe I have everything connected correctly and wondered if anyone
>> >on the list had a similar experience.
>> >
>> >Any advice on what to check and in what sequence, would be appreciated.
>> >
>> >This is my first Matronics post, and hopefully my new-to-Canadian-skies
>> >RV-9A will be able to feed itself with electric power with your help.
>>
>> What's your bus voltage? Where does your instrumentation
>> read Amps? Battery? Alternator output?
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>> ----------------------------------------)
>> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
>> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
>> ( appearance of being right . . . )
>> ( )
>> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
>> ----------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EXP2BUS and non-functioning alternator |
>Actually I am supposed to have amps being measured on the alternator
>output with a shunt, for the Van's Aircraft ammeter, and with an
>induction coil for the Rocky Mountain EIS. Both agree that I'm not
>putting out amps, and the system is not charging at all. If I run on my
>Dynon EFIS I get quite a good measure of battery voltage, and it goes
>down steadily whether the engine is running or not.
Okay, next step is to see if the alternator is even being
asked to go to work. Under conditions that you would expect
the alternator to be working, check for command voltage
at the alternator's control connector.
>I guess I may be a bit premature in addressing this list since there is
>an anomaly I have to check first. The alternator warning light does not
>come on at all.
If the alternator is not being commanded ON, it may
well consider operations to be "normal" and not
illuminate a light.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kevin Sheely" <ksheely(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Recommendation for schematic using only 1 B&C PM alternator/Dual |
Lightspeed II
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Recommendation for schematic using only 1 B&C |
PM alternator/Dual Lightspeed II
There's not a lot of choices . . . but I'm curious.
What's the engine/airframe combination upon which
you plan to install this combination? How do you
plan to use the airplane? Finally, why dual
electronic ignition systems?
You would probably start with something like Z-16
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z16M.pdf
and run the ignition(s) directly from the battery.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | E-MAGS, P-MAGS, CDI QUESTION |
Greg,
Not sure if you got to Sun N' Fun last week but E-Mag had a nice table
with lots of examples and information. I have found that if you go
digging on each of the respective vendor sites, you will find lots of
detail on each, albeit by individual authors. That is probably your best
bet.
Aerovee will tell you what they prefer (you can be sure they have an
opinion). Yes, the learning process is good practice and lots of fun.
Glenn
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of greg
issitt
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:02 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: E-MAGS, P-MAGS, CDI QUESTION
Hi there,
Is there any reference material on this board on how the different
ignition systems function? I am just finishing Bob Nuckoll's book and am
starting to get a wiring plan together for my Aerovee powered Sonex. I
realize I don't know what kind of ignition system the Aerovee engine
has, and that I would like to learn more about the differences in all
the mag systems used in aircraft.
Thanks for any help,
Greg Issitt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | EXP2BUS and non-functioning alternator |
Hi Ian,
While I do not have an EXP2bus, I did assist a fellow RVer who had one that
was giving him problems. The problem was the battery would not stay
charged, charge it up and over night it would be dead.
I had no experience with the EXP2bus, but did have a voltohm meter and got
the schematics off the internet. To make a long story short, at some point
someone had blown/cooked the Exp2 on-board 40 amp (Master) relay. More on
how I think they did it - which is my real reason for addressing your
question.
When I first pulled the board I noticed that the solder coating on some of
the copper traces on the board had gotten hot enough to melt and run off - a
sure sign of excessive current flow. I then found that the master on-board
relay was missing from its socket and a heavy strip of copper bar had been
solder across two of the relays socket pins.
The addition of this jumper strip in lieu of the relay resulted in the
battery remaining connected to the alternator B lead (and other board loads)
even with the master switch off. The reason is that when the board's master
switch is on all it does is ground the circuit through this relay and causes
it to close (or open if switch is off).
So with no relay and the jumper installed, there was no way to disconnect
the load drain on the battery which as a consequence was drained overnight.
I looking over the EXP2 diagram it became clear that IF the board's master
switch was left ON AND the "B" lead of the alternator was grounded (or the
alternator somehow shorted out) that the path of current went from battery
through board (melting the solder from the traces), through the relay
(frying the 40 amp relay) and on to ground through the "B" lead. Now, I was
not there, so don't know if this happened, but it certainly would fry the
board if it did.
So make certain that if you work on the board or alternator to disconnect
the battery OR at a minimum insure the Master switch is OFF.
Now, I don't know if your board has a problem, but if I had and Exp2 board
and my battery was not charging I would check the on-board relay.
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
http://www.flyrotary.com/
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ian
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXP2BUS and non-functioning alternator
Actually I am supposed to have amps being measured on the alternator
output with a shunt, for the Van's Aircraft ammeter, and with an
induction coil for the Rocky Mountain EIS. Both agree that I'm not
putting out amps, and the system is not charging at all. If I run on my
Dynon EFIS I get quite a good measure of battery voltage, and it goes
down steadily whether the engine is running or not.
I guess I may be a bit premature in addressing this list since there is
an anomaly I have to check first. The alternator warning light does not
come on at all. Any suggestions on why this might be would be
appreciated. It could be a simple mis-wire since I just started running
the engine recently, and had the battery on a trickle charger constantly
until about a week ago. Hopefully the two are symptoms of the same
problem.
Ian
>
> At 09:37 AM 4/30/2009, you wrote:
> >
> >Hello,
> >I'm in the primary flight testing phase with my RV-9A. I have an
> >EXP2BUS and a 40A alternator with an internal regulator which came from
> >AeroSport Power in Vancouver.
> >
> >I've never seen the alternator charging strongly, although my test pilot
> >thinks he saw 20A the other day. I see no amps at any engine speed.
> >
> >I believe I have everything connected correctly and wondered if anyone
> >on the list had a similar experience.
> >
> >Any advice on what to check and in what sequence, would be appreciated.
> >
> >This is my first Matronics post, and hopefully my new-to-Canadian-skies
> >RV-9A will be able to feed itself with electric power with your help.
>
> What's your bus voltage? Where does your instrumentation
> read Amps? Battery? Alternator output?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------)
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 3267 (20080714) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike West <mike.l.west(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | ECU - EFI - Dual Battery Bus - Schottky Diode ? |
Thank you all very much for your responses.
Bob=2C I have your book (which I like very much) ... Where do you reckon I
got the dual diode idea anyway ?
To my knowledge=2C there are 3 things to provide power to for electronic en
gine control: ECU (black box controller)=2C fuel injectors & ignition coils
. The ECU is shown in the Aeroelectric diagrams ... but not the injectors o
r coils.
The ECU I have is made by Real World Solutions (EC3-AA) and controls the gr
ound side of the injectors and coils. I'm assuming they use some type of tr
ansistors/switches to turn on/off the injectors & coils. Whatever power I p
rovide to the ECU is not used by the injectors & coils but rather for opera
ting the internal switches in the ECU (that pulse on/off injectors & coils)
.
My first concern is that I have adequate voltage for the fuel injectors and
the ignition coils. If the alternator dies and the batteries are at 12V th
en I would have ~11.5V to operate the injectors and coils (0.5V lost across
Schottky diodes).
Also ... should I power the ECU at exactly the same voltage I provide to th
e injectors and coils? Is the ECU smart enough to recognize the voltage sup
plied to it and perhaps fire the injectors and coils differently based on t
he voltage it sees? What if my ECU was powered at 12V (thru a switch) and m
y injectors & coils were powered at 11.5V (thru diodes)? That is a question
I will send to Real World Solutions / Rotary Aviation and post.
Yeah ... I know what you're thinkin ... we answer one question for this guy
now he'll never leave us alone !
Thanks again :-)
-Mike
_________________________________________________________________
Rediscover Hotmail=AE: Get quick friend updates right in your inbox.
http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_
Updates2_042009
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: E-MAGS, P-MAGS, CDI QUESTION |
Lightspeed's website has a section that deals in depth on the advanteges of
electronic ingnition and the pros & cons of the different systems types as
well as a good deal of info on flame speeds etc with the various mixture r
atios . Good reading material.=0ATim Andres=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_________________
_______________=0AFrom: "longg(at)pjm.com" <longg(at)pjm.com>=0ATo: aeroelectric-
list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:23:38 PM=0ASubject: R
E: AeroElectric-List: E-MAGS, P-MAGS, CDI QUESTION=0A=0A=0AGreg,=0A=C2-
=0ANot sure if you got to Sun N=99 Fun last week but E-Mag had a nice
table with lots of examples and information. I have found that if you go d
igging on each of the respective vendor sites, you will find lots of detail
on each, albeit by individual authors. That is probably your best bet.=0A
=C2-=0AAerovee will tell you what they prefer (you can be sure they have
an opinion). Yes, the learning process is good practice and lots of fun.=0A
=C2-=0AGlenn=0A=C2-=0AFrom:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of greg is
sitt=0ASent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:02 AM=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matr
onics.com=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: E-MAGS, P-MAGS, CDI QUESTION=0A=C2
-=0AHi there,=0AIs there any reference material on this board on how the
different ignition systems function? I am just finishing Bob Nuckoll
=99s book and am starting to get a wiring plan together for my Aerovee powe
red Sonex. I realize I don=99t know what kind of ignition system the
Aerovee engine has, and that I would like to learn more about the differenc
es in all the mag systems used in aircraft.=0AThanks for any help,=0AGreg I
ssitt=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A =C2-=0A =C2-=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navi
gator?AeroElectric-List=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www.matronic
=====
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Humphrey" <mike109g6(at)insideconnect.net> |
| Subject: | Re: EXP2BUS and non-functioning alternator |
Ian,
Did you install a 40amp breaker per the instructions between the alternator
and the EXP2bus? The Master breaker is only designed for 35amp on the
board.
Mike H
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 6:48 PM
Subject: Fried EXP2BUS was AeroElectric-List: EXP2BUS and non-functioning
alternator
>
>
> Hi Ian,
>
> While I do not have an EXP2bus, I did assist a fellow RVer who had one
> that
> was giving him problems. The problem was the battery would not stay
> charged, charge it up and over night it would be dead.
>
> I had no experience with the EXP2bus, but did have a voltohm meter and got
> the schematics off the internet. To make a long story short, at some
> point
> someone had blown/cooked the Exp2 on-board 40 amp (Master) relay. More on
> how I think they did it - which is my real reason for addressing your
> question.
>
> When I first pulled the board I noticed that the solder coating on some of
> the copper traces on the board had gotten hot enough to melt and run off -
> a
> sure sign of excessive current flow. I then found that the master
> on-board
> relay was missing from its socket and a heavy strip of copper bar had been
> solder across two of the relays socket pins.
>
> The addition of this jumper strip in lieu of the relay resulted in the
> battery remaining connected to the alternator B lead (and other board
> loads)
> even with the master switch off. The reason is that when the board's
> master
> switch is on all it does is ground the circuit through this relay and
> causes
> it to close (or open if switch is off).
>
> So with no relay and the jumper installed, there was no way to disconnect
> the load drain on the battery which as a consequence was drained
> overnight.
>
> I looking over the EXP2 diagram it became clear that IF the board's master
> switch was left ON AND the "B" lead of the alternator was grounded (or the
> alternator somehow shorted out) that the path of current went from battery
> through board (melting the solder from the traces), through the relay
> (frying the 40 amp relay) and on to ground through the "B" lead. Now, I
> was
> not there, so don't know if this happened, but it certainly would fry the
> board if it did.
>
> So make certain that if you work on the board or alternator to disconnect
> the battery OR at a minimum insure the Master switch is OFF.
>
> Now, I don't know if your board has a problem, but if I had and Exp2 board
> and my battery was not charging I would check the on-board relay.
>
> Ed
>
> Ed Anderson
>
> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
>
> Matthews, NC
>
> eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
>
> http://www.andersonee.com
>
> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
>
> http://www.flyrotary.com/
>
> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
>
> http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ian
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 12:40 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXP2BUS and non-functioning alternator
>
>
> Actually I am supposed to have amps being measured on the alternator
> output with a shunt, for the Van's Aircraft ammeter, and with an
> induction coil for the Rocky Mountain EIS. Both agree that I'm not
> putting out amps, and the system is not charging at all. If I run on my
> Dynon EFIS I get quite a good measure of battery voltage, and it goes
> down steadily whether the engine is running or not.
>
> I guess I may be a bit premature in addressing this list since there is
> an anomaly I have to check first. The alternator warning light does not
> come on at all. Any suggestions on why this might be would be
> appreciated. It could be a simple mis-wire since I just started running
> the engine recently, and had the battery on a trickle charger constantly
> until about a week ago. Hopefully the two are symptoms of the same
> problem.
>
> Ian
>
>
>>
>> At 09:37 AM 4/30/2009, you wrote:
>> >
>> >Hello,
>> >I'm in the primary flight testing phase with my RV-9A. I have an
>> >EXP2BUS and a 40A alternator with an internal regulator which came from
>> >AeroSport Power in Vancouver.
>> >
>> >I've never seen the alternator charging strongly, although my test pilot
>> >thinks he saw 20A the other day. I see no amps at any engine speed.
>> >
>> >I believe I have everything connected correctly and wondered if anyone
>> >on the list had a similar experience.
>> >
>> >Any advice on what to check and in what sequence, would be appreciated.
>> >
>> >This is my first Matronics post, and hopefully my new-to-Canadian-skies
>> >RV-9A will be able to feed itself with electric power with your help.
>>
>> What's your bus voltage? Where does your instrumentation
>> read Amps? Battery? Alternator output?
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>> ----------------------------------------)
>> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
>> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
>> ( appearance of being right . . . )
>> ( )
>> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
>> ----------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature
> database 3267 (20080714) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EXP2BUS and non-functioning |
alternator
| From: | Ian <ixb(at)videotron.ca> |
Yes.
>
> Ian,
> Did you install a 40amp breaker per the instructions between the alternator
> and the EXP2bus? The Master breaker is only designed for 35amp on the
> board.
>
> Mike H
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 6:48 PM
> Subject: Fried EXP2BUS was AeroElectric-List: EXP2BUS and non-functioning
> alternator
>
>
> >
> >
> > Hi Ian,
> >
> > While I do not have an EXP2bus, I did assist a fellow RVer who had one
> > that
> > was giving him problems. The problem was the battery would not stay
> > charged, charge it up and over night it would be dead.
> >
> > I had no experience with the EXP2bus, but did have a voltohm meter and got
> > the schematics off the internet. To make a long story short, at some
> > point
> > someone had blown/cooked the Exp2 on-board 40 amp (Master) relay. More on
> > how I think they did it - which is my real reason for addressing your
> > question.
> >
> > When I first pulled the board I noticed that the solder coating on some of
> > the copper traces on the board had gotten hot enough to melt and run off -
> > a
> > sure sign of excessive current flow. I then found that the master
> > on-board
> > relay was missing from its socket and a heavy strip of copper bar had been
> > solder across two of the relays socket pins.
> >
> > The addition of this jumper strip in lieu of the relay resulted in the
> > battery remaining connected to the alternator B lead (and other board
> > loads)
> > even with the master switch off. The reason is that when the board's
> > master
> > switch is on all it does is ground the circuit through this relay and
> > causes
> > it to close (or open if switch is off).
> >
> > So with no relay and the jumper installed, there was no way to disconnect
> > the load drain on the battery which as a consequence was drained
> > overnight.
> >
> > I looking over the EXP2 diagram it became clear that IF the board's master
> > switch was left ON AND the "B" lead of the alternator was grounded (or the
> > alternator somehow shorted out) that the path of current went from battery
> > through board (melting the solder from the traces), through the relay
> > (frying the 40 amp relay) and on to ground through the "B" lead. Now, I
> > was
> > not there, so don't know if this happened, but it certainly would fry the
> > board if it did.
> >
> > So make certain that if you work on the board or alternator to disconnect
> > the battery OR at a minimum insure the Master switch is OFF.
> >
> > Now, I don't know if your board has a problem, but if I had and Exp2 board
> > and my battery was not charging I would check the on-board relay.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > Ed Anderson
> >
> > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
> >
> > Matthews, NC
> >
> > eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
> >
> > http://www.andersonee.com
> >
> > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
> >
> > http://www.flyrotary.com/
> >
> > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
> >
> > http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ian
> > Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 12:40 PM
> > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXP2BUS and non-functioning alternator
> >
> >
> > Actually I am supposed to have amps being measured on the alternator
> > output with a shunt, for the Van's Aircraft ammeter, and with an
> > induction coil for the Rocky Mountain EIS. Both agree that I'm not
> > putting out amps, and the system is not charging at all. If I run on my
> > Dynon EFIS I get quite a good measure of battery voltage, and it goes
> > down steadily whether the engine is running or not.
> >
> > I guess I may be a bit premature in addressing this list since there is
> > an anomaly I have to check first. The alternator warning light does not
> > come on at all. Any suggestions on why this might be would be
> > appreciated. It could be a simple mis-wire since I just started running
> > the engine recently, and had the battery on a trickle charger constantly
> > until about a week ago. Hopefully the two are symptoms of the same
> > problem.
> >
> > Ian
> >
> >
> >>
> >> At 09:37 AM 4/30/2009, you wrote:
> >> >
> >> >Hello,
> >> >I'm in the primary flight testing phase with my RV-9A. I have an
> >> >EXP2BUS and a 40A alternator with an internal regulator which came from
> >> >AeroSport Power in Vancouver.
> >> >
> >> >I've never seen the alternator charging strongly, although my test pilot
> >> >thinks he saw 20A the other day. I see no amps at any engine speed.
> >> >
> >> >I believe I have everything connected correctly and wondered if anyone
> >> >on the list had a similar experience.
> >> >
> >> >Any advice on what to check and in what sequence, would be appreciated.
> >> >
> >> >This is my first Matronics post, and hopefully my new-to-Canadian-skies
> >> >RV-9A will be able to feed itself with electric power with your help.
> >>
> >> What's your bus voltage? Where does your instrumentation
> >> read Amps? Battery? Alternator output?
> >>
> >>
> >> Bob . . .
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------)
> >> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> >> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> >> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> >> ( )
> >> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> >> ----------------------------------------
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> > signature
> > database 3267 (20080714) __________
> >
> > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EXP2BUS and non-functioning |
alternator
| From: | Ian <ixb(at)videotron.ca> |
Thanks Ed. I'll check for any signs of high current. I was able to
check the power at the alternator and the 12V is getting to the right
pin, the warning lamp lead is connected to the right place (and showing
about 1V, not sure if that's what you would expect to see the other side
of a 12V LED) but it "felt right".
Your fellow RVer probably read the bit in the EXP2BUS about removing the
on-board relay if he planned to go above 40 amps, but you have to
replace it with an external relay. In the end I did install an external
relay, so I jumpered the connectors on the board per the installation
instructions from the EXP2BUS people.
>From what you are saying, I should be able to see charging current. Do
you folks normally see a high current after starting. I'm only seeing
about two amps, and not sure if I should expect to see a lot more, when
the partially recharged battery is at about 12.0V.
Regards,
Ian
>
> Hi Ian,
>
> While I do not have an EXP2bus, I did assist a fellow RVer who had one that
> was giving him problems. The problem was the battery would not stay
> charged, charge it up and over night it would be dead.
>
> I had no experience with the EXP2bus, but did have a voltohm meter and got
> the schematics off the internet. To make a long story short, at some point
> someone had blown/cooked the Exp2 on-board 40 amp (Master) relay. More on
> how I think they did it - which is my real reason for addressing your
> question.
>
> When I first pulled the board I noticed that the solder coating on some of
> the copper traces on the board had gotten hot enough to melt and run off - a
> sure sign of excessive current flow. I then found that the master on-board
> relay was missing from its socket and a heavy strip of copper bar had been
> solder across two of the relays socket pins.
>
> The addition of this jumper strip in lieu of the relay resulted in the
> battery remaining connected to the alternator B lead (and other board loads)
> even with the master switch off. The reason is that when the board's master
> switch is on all it does is ground the circuit through this relay and causes
> it to close (or open if switch is off).
>
> So with no relay and the jumper installed, there was no way to disconnect
> the load drain on the battery which as a consequence was drained overnight.
>
> I looking over the EXP2 diagram it became clear that IF the board's master
> switch was left ON AND the "B" lead of the alternator was grounded (or the
> alternator somehow shorted out) that the path of current went from battery
> through board (melting the solder from the traces), through the relay
> (frying the 40 amp relay) and on to ground through the "B" lead. Now, I was
> not there, so don't know if this happened, but it certainly would fry the
> board if it did.
>
> So make certain that if you work on the board or alternator to disconnect
> the battery OR at a minimum insure the Master switch is OFF.
>
> Now, I don't know if your board has a problem, but if I had and Exp2 board
> and my battery was not charging I would check the on-board relay.
>
> Ed
>
> Ed Anderson
>
> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
>
> Matthews, NC
>
> eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
>
> http://www.andersonee.com
>
> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
>
> http://www.flyrotary.com/
>
> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
>
> http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ian
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 12:40 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXP2BUS and non-functioning alternator
>
>
> Actually I am supposed to have amps being measured on the alternator
> output with a shunt, for the Van's Aircraft ammeter, and with an
> induction coil for the Rocky Mountain EIS. Both agree that I'm not
> putting out amps, and the system is not charging at all. If I run on my
> Dynon EFIS I get quite a good measure of battery voltage, and it goes
> down steadily whether the engine is running or not.
>
> I guess I may be a bit premature in addressing this list since there is
> an anomaly I have to check first. The alternator warning light does not
> come on at all. Any suggestions on why this might be would be
> appreciated. It could be a simple mis-wire since I just started running
> the engine recently, and had the battery on a trickle charger constantly
> until about a week ago. Hopefully the two are symptoms of the same
> problem.
>
> Ian
>
>
> >
> > At 09:37 AM 4/30/2009, you wrote:
> > >
> > >Hello,
> > >I'm in the primary flight testing phase with my RV-9A. I have an
> > >EXP2BUS and a 40A alternator with an internal regulator which came from
> > >AeroSport Power in Vancouver.
> > >
> > >I've never seen the alternator charging strongly, although my test pilot
> > >thinks he saw 20A the other day. I see no amps at any engine speed.
> > >
> > >I believe I have everything connected correctly and wondered if anyone
> > >on the list had a similar experience.
> > >
> > >Any advice on what to check and in what sequence, would be appreciated.
> > >
> > >This is my first Matronics post, and hopefully my new-to-Canadian-skies
> > >RV-9A will be able to feed itself with electric power with your help.
> >
> > What's your bus voltage? Where does your instrumentation
> > read Amps? Battery? Alternator output?
> >
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> > ----------------------------------------)
> > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> > ( appearance of being right . . . )
> > ( )
> > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> > ----------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
> database 3267 (20080714) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EXP2BUS and non-functioning alternator |
| From: | Ian <ixb(at)videotron.ca> |
Not sure if I'm messing up the list by responding to multiple responses
- maybe someone could coach me on the etiquette.
I see 12V on the "IG" input on the alternator (the top of the "T"), and
about 1V on the lamp.
I have an external master relay, and the EXP2BUS relay has been removed
and replaced with a jumper.
So I think the alternator is being asked to work.
Ian
>
>
> >Actually I am supposed to have amps being measured on the alternator
> >output with a shunt, for the Van's Aircraft ammeter, and with an
> >induction coil for the Rocky Mountain EIS. Both agree that I'm not
> >putting out amps, and the system is not charging at all. If I run on my
> >Dynon EFIS I get quite a good measure of battery voltage, and it goes
> >down steadily whether the engine is running or not.
>
> Okay, next step is to see if the alternator is even being
> asked to go to work. Under conditions that you would expect
> the alternator to be working, check for command voltage
> at the alternator's control connector.
>
> >I guess I may be a bit premature in addressing this list since there is
> >an anomaly I have to check first. The alternator warning light does not
> >come on at all.
>
> If the alternator is not being commanded ON, it may
> well consider operations to be "normal" and not
> illuminate a light.
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------)
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | ECU - EFI - Dual Battery Bus - Schottky Diode ? |
Mike,
It sounds like you are working with some kind of conversion but don't
ignore dual alternators as a solution. Jeg's and other provide
automotive solutions for dual alts. In many ways it's easier to hook up
two alternators than dual diodes, batteries, switches, cables etc. and
provides redundancy that doesn't need charging and constant monitoring.
E.g. ala Z/13-8 or 20. In my experience, alternators either work or
they're broken.
If the EC3 is worth its salt, it will survive a voltage loss down to a
certain value, say 5 volts (ala Lightspeed). Having the second
alternator will help ensure it never gets there. If they die by not
having 11-12 volts all the time, I'd buy another product. If you turn
everything else off, staying alive down to 5 volts gives one ample time
to find a landing spot.
Glenn
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike
West
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 9:15 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: ECU - EFI - Dual Battery Bus - Schottky
Diode ?
Thank you all very much for your responses.
Bob, I have your book (which I like very much) ... Where do you reckon I
got the dual diode idea anyway ?
To my knowledge, there are 3 things to provide power to for electronic
engine control: ECU (black box controller), fuel injectors & ignition
coils. The ECU is shown in the Aeroelectric diagrams ... but not the
injectors or coils.
The ECU I have is made by Real World Solutions (EC3-AA) and controls the
ground side of the injectors and coils. I'm assuming they use some type
of transistors/switches to turn on/off the injectors & coils. Whatever
power I provide to the ECU is not used by the injectors & coils but
rather for operating the internal switches in the ECU (that pulse on/off
injectors & coils).
My first concern is that I have adequate voltage for the fuel injectors
and the ignition coils. If the alternator dies and the batteries are at
12V then I would have ~11.5V to operate the injectors and coils (0.5V
lost across Schottky diodes).
Also ... should I power the ECU at exactly the same voltage I provide to
the injectors and coils? Is the ECU smart enough to recognize the
voltage supplied to it and perhaps fire the injectors and coils
differently based on the voltage it sees? What if my ECU was powered at
12V (thru a switch) and my injectors & coils were powered at 11.5V (thru
diodes)? That is a question I will send to Real World Solutions / Rotary
Aviation and post.
Yeah ... I know what you're thinkin ... we answer one question for this
guy now he'll never leave us alone !
Thanks again :-)
-Mike
________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | E-MAGS, P-MAGS, CDI QUESTION |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | aeroflash strobes |
| From: | bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
hi all, i am ready to wire my aeroflash wingtip strobes. the strobe cable i
received does not have the shielding connected to any of the insulated
wires. the black wire is my ground wire. do i connect the shield to the
black ground wire? at which end, or both ends? any input is appreciated.
bob noffs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org> |
| Subject: | aeroflash strobes |
Unless otherwise directed in the install instructions, only ground one
end of the shield. I would in this case ground at the power supply.
Bruce
WWW.Glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of bob
noffs
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 2:43 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: aeroflash strobes
hi all, i am ready to wire my aeroflash wingtip strobes. the strobe
cable i received does not have the shielding connected to any of the
insulated wires. the black wire is my ground wire. do i connect the
shield to the black ground wire? at which end, or both ends? any input
is appreciated.
bob noffs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Hilderbrand <m_hilderbrand(at)sbcglobal.net> |
Hi everyone, =0A=0AI bought a handful of 1-2 switches for various items i.e
., landing lights, strobes, left & right mag, etc.- My question is can I
use the same-switch for the master-and alternator?-Looks like sometim
es people are using the 2-3-and only having one switch - being multifunct
ional.-Since I now have a small surplus of 1-2 switches, I thought I migh
t just use them instead. This will be on the Jab 3300 engine. As you can te
ll I am ignorant to this area... but I am trying to learn! Thanks!--=0A
-Michael Hilderbrand=0ADerby, Kansas=0AHttp://www.kansasflying.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vincent Himsl <vshimsl(at)live.com> |
| Subject: | aeroflash strobes |
I mounted the X-PAK power supply just aft of the rear storage compartment i
n my RV-8 and grounded the shield to the case at this point. I left the oth
er end open (not connected).
No noise From my radio=2C Dynon D-180=2C or AVMAP GPS at this time.
Vince H.
Pullman=2C WA USA
RV8 Final Inspection Prep
Date: Fri=2C 1 May 2009 13:43:11 -0500
Subject: AeroElectric-List: aeroflash strobes
From: icubob(at)gmail.com
hi all=2C i am ready to wire my aeroflash wingtip strobes. the strobe cable
i received does not have the shielding connected to any of the insulated w
ires. the black wire is my ground wire. do i connect the shield to the blac
k ground wire? at which end=2C or both ends? any input is appreciated.
bob noffs
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail=AE has ever-growing storage! Don=92t worry about storage limits.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tuto
rial_Storage1_052009
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | EXP2BUS and non-functioning |
alternator
Ok Ian,
Yes, you can remove and jump the relay positions provided you are using the
jumper provided by the EXP2 manufacture for that purpose. Jumping it with a
wire (as in the case I mentioned) simply will not work. I believe the
proper jumper has a diode in the circuit to prevent the battery from
draining back through the generator.
Good luck, that's all I can offer.
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
http://www.flyrotary.com/
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ian
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: Fried EXP2BUS was AeroElectric-List: EXP2BUS and
non-functioning alternator
Thanks Ed. I'll check for any signs of high current. I was able to
check the power at the alternator and the 12V is getting to the right
pin, the warning lamp lead is connected to the right place (and showing
about 1V, not sure if that's what you would expect to see the other side
of a 12V LED) but it "felt right".
Your fellow RVer probably read the bit in the EXP2BUS about removing the
on-board relay if he planned to go above 40 amps, but you have to
replace it with an external relay. In the end I did install an external
relay, so I jumpered the connectors on the board per the installation
instructions from the EXP2BUS people.
>From what you are saying, I should be able to see charging current. Do
you folks normally see a high current after starting. I'm only seeing
about two amps, and not sure if I should expect to see a lot more, when
the partially recharged battery is at about 12.0V.
Regards,
Ian
>
> Hi Ian,
>
> While I do not have an EXP2bus, I did assist a fellow RVer who had one
that
> was giving him problems. The problem was the battery would not stay
> charged, charge it up and over night it would be dead.
>
> I had no experience with the EXP2bus, but did have a voltohm meter and got
> the schematics off the internet. To make a long story short, at some
point
> someone had blown/cooked the Exp2 on-board 40 amp (Master) relay. More on
> how I think they did it - which is my real reason for addressing your
> question.
>
> When I first pulled the board I noticed that the solder coating on some of
> the copper traces on the board had gotten hot enough to melt and run off -
a
> sure sign of excessive current flow. I then found that the master
on-board
> relay was missing from its socket and a heavy strip of copper bar had been
> solder across two of the relays socket pins.
>
> The addition of this jumper strip in lieu of the relay resulted in the
> battery remaining connected to the alternator B lead (and other board
loads)
> even with the master switch off. The reason is that when the board's
master
> switch is on all it does is ground the circuit through this relay and
causes
> it to close (or open if switch is off).
>
> So with no relay and the jumper installed, there was no way to disconnect
> the load drain on the battery which as a consequence was drained
overnight.
>
> I looking over the EXP2 diagram it became clear that IF the board's master
> switch was left ON AND the "B" lead of the alternator was grounded (or the
> alternator somehow shorted out) that the path of current went from battery
> through board (melting the solder from the traces), through the relay
> (frying the 40 amp relay) and on to ground through the "B" lead. Now, I
was
> not there, so don't know if this happened, but it certainly would fry the
> board if it did.
>
> So make certain that if you work on the board or alternator to disconnect
> the battery OR at a minimum insure the Master switch is OFF.
>
> Now, I don't know if your board has a problem, but if I had and Exp2 board
> and my battery was not charging I would check the on-board relay.
>
> Ed
>
> Ed Anderson
>
> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
>
> Matthews, NC
>
> eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
>
> http://www.andersonee.com
>
> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
>
> http://www.flyrotary.com/
>
> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
>
> http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ian
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 12:40 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXP2BUS and non-functioning alternator
>
>
> Actually I am supposed to have amps being measured on the alternator
> output with a shunt, for the Van's Aircraft ammeter, and with an
> induction coil for the Rocky Mountain EIS. Both agree that I'm not
> putting out amps, and the system is not charging at all. If I run on my
> Dynon EFIS I get quite a good measure of battery voltage, and it goes
> down steadily whether the engine is running or not.
>
> I guess I may be a bit premature in addressing this list since there is
> an anomaly I have to check first. The alternator warning light does not
> come on at all. Any suggestions on why this might be would be
> appreciated. It could be a simple mis-wire since I just started running
> the engine recently, and had the battery on a trickle charger constantly
> until about a week ago. Hopefully the two are symptoms of the same
> problem.
>
> Ian
>
>
> >
> > At 09:37 AM 4/30/2009, you wrote:
> > >
> > >Hello,
> > >I'm in the primary flight testing phase with my RV-9A. I have an
> > >EXP2BUS and a 40A alternator with an internal regulator which came from
> > >AeroSport Power in Vancouver.
> > >
> > >I've never seen the alternator charging strongly, although my test
pilot
> > >thinks he saw 20A the other day. I see no amps at any engine speed.
> > >
> > >I believe I have everything connected correctly and wondered if anyone
> > >on the list had a similar experience.
> > >
> > >Any advice on what to check and in what sequence, would be appreciated.
> > >
> > >This is my first Matronics post, and hopefully my new-to-Canadian-skies
> > >RV-9A will be able to feed itself with electric power with your help.
> >
> > What's your bus voltage? Where does your instrumentation
> > read Amps? Battery? Alternator output?
> >
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> > ----------------------------------------)
> > ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> > ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> > ( appearance of being right . . . )
> > ( )
> > ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> > ----------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature
> database 3267 (20080714) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 3267 (20080714) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 04:05 PM 5/1/2009, you wrote:
>Hi everyone,
>
>I bought a handful of 1-2 switches for various items i.e., landing
>lights, strobes, left & right mag, etc. My question is can I use
>the same switch for the master and alternator? Looks like sometimes
>people are using the 2-3 and only having one switch - being
>multifunctional. Since I now have a small surplus of 1-2 switches, I
>thought I might just use them instead. This will be on the Jab 3300
>engine. As you can tell I am ignorant to this area... but I am
>trying to learn! Thanks!
>
The first batteries to go into aircraft were
charged by generators. Unlike many if not
most alternators, generators would come on line
and run by themselves as a useful power source.
It was common and practical to control the
generator and battery with their own separate
switches.
When alternators began to replace generators
in the 60s . . . we found that product of the
day was best operated with a battery on line.
This insured that (1) the alternator would have
excitation power available to go to work and
(2) there was a battery always available to
avoid stalling a self-excited alternator when
hit with a hi-inrush load (like landing gear
motors and/or landing lights).
Hence the development of the infamous "split-
rocker" master switch for single engine light
aircraft.
Emacs!
This product's rockers were mechanically interlocked
to prevent an alternator from being on line
without a battery . . . yet allows the battery
to be on without the alternator.
This functionality is emulated by the use of the
progressive transfer 2-10 style switch. Alternatively,
some Z-figures show a 2-3 that brings the battery
and alternator ON and OFF together. This is okay
too as long as you have a means by which the
externally excited alternator can be shut OFF for
ground maintenance activities.
In the case of Z-13/8 I suggest a 2-3 switch
when paired with the crowbar ov protection that
calls for a pullable circuit breaker co-located
with the DC POWER MASTER switch. In the switch
panel options drawing at . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Switch_Panels/spanel.pdf
. . . all configurations illustrated show a 2-3
DC PWR MASTER and a 5A pullable breaker. In this
drawing . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Switch_Panels/Switches.pdf
. . . the 2-10 switch is suggested for a DC PWR
MASTER. The pullable breaker allows for disabling
the alternator for extended ground operations of
the electrical system with the engine not running.
You can certainly used independent switches to
control the battery and alternator. However, it
is incumbent upon you to understand the limitations
of the equipment items you've installed and to
educate yourself (and anyone else who might fly
your airplane) as to the proper operation of those
switches consistent with those limitations.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Grounding Batteries |
| From: | Dan Ballin <dballin(at)gmail.com> |
I am working on a Lancair Legacy (ie carbon frame) and basically the Z-14
system 24v with two batteries. The main will have a larger battery and 60A
alt, the aux with a smaller B&C battery and an SD20. The batteries will
be behind the seats with the power grid contactors. My plan is to run a
large ground to the engine/starter for the main (4AWG) and a 10AWG for the
aux to a ground stud on the firewall (which then gets connect to the engine
case). So here is my question. I want to have a local ground back by the
batteries for both main and aux components. Should I have a separate ground
bus for each battery? or can I attach both neg terminals to a single ground
bus. It seems to me that this does add some redundancy to the ground path,
but it also will hide any failure in the ground leads. Thoughts?
Thanks
Dan Ballin LEG2 #286
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Grounding Batteries |
I am working on a Lancair Legacy (ie carbon frame) and basically the
Z-14
system 24v with two batteries. The main will have a larger battery and
60A
alt, the aux with a smaller B&C battery and an SD20. The batteries
will
be behind the seats with the power grid contactors. My plan is to run a
large ground to the engine/starter for the main (4AWG) and a 10AWG for
the
aux to a ground stud on the firewall (which then gets connect to the
engine
case). So here is my question. I want to have a local ground back by
the
batteries for both main and aux components. Should I have a separate
ground
bus for each battery? or can I attach both neg terminals to a single
ground
bus. It seems to me that this does add some redundancy to the ground
path,
but it also will hide any failure in the ground leads. Thoughts?
Thanks
Dan Ballin LEG2 #286
Dan,
You said you are running a 24V system. Are you using 2 - 24V batteries
or 2
- 12V batteries? If using 2 - 12V then they will be in series for the
24V
system, meaning that the Neg. terminal of one battery will be at ground
and
the pos terminal of that battery will attach to the neg terminal of the
second battery, and the pos of the second battery will be your 24V
supply.
If you are using 2 - 24V batteries, then the neg terminals of the two
batteries can be attached together and to ground, and the pos terminals
will
give you 2 independent 24V sources.
Roger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Grounding Batteries |
At 10:17 AM 5/2/2009, you wrote:
>I am working on a Lancair Legacy (ie carbon frame) and basically the
>Z-14 system 24v with two batteries. The main will have a larger
>battery and 60A alt, the aux with a smaller B&C battery and an
>SD20. The batteries will be behind the seats with the power grid
>contactors. My plan is to run a large ground to the engine/starter
>for the main (4AWG) and a 10AWG for the aux to a ground stud on the
>firewall (which then gets connect to the engine case). So here is
>my question. I want to have a local ground back by the batteries
>for both main and aux components. Should I have a separate ground
>bus for each battery? or can I attach both neg terminals to a single
>ground bus. It seems to me that this does add some redundancy to
>the ground path, but it also will hide any failure in the ground
>leads. Thoughts?
Ground wires can and should be crafted with
the robust-as-hell philosophy in mind. I.e.,
as reliable as prop bolts. This means take some
extra care in crafting the conductors, routing
for mechanical isolation from risks and bolting
things together with metal lock nuts or LockTite
on threads.
One conductor from crankcase to firewall ground
stud. One conductor from firewall ground to a battery
ground behind seats (small forest of tabs or perhaps
just a stud on which all rear grounds mount). Two
conductors from rear ground location to each of the
(-) terminals of the batteries. You might want to
consider 2AWG welding cable for the fat ground
wires . . . MUCH more pleasant to work with than
22759.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Vincent Himsl <vshimsl(at)live.com> |
| Subject: | EXP2BUS and non-functioning |
alternator
Hello=2C
Simple Things revisited.
Do you have a thick cable going from the engine case to the negative return
on your battery? I used a thick braided mesh cable to the firewall and fro
m there a thick Van's 3/8" diameter (I think) to the battery.
The reason I ask is that an ohmmeter check will show continuity possibly th
rough some round about way=2C but the engine is electrically isolated from
the engine frame by the rubber 'Lord' mounts and you need as thick a cable
(electronically speaking) returning to the battery (neg) as leaving it (Pos
)
Also check the ground return for your 'EXP BUS'. From the block diagram at
'ControlVison' it is needed for the relays and internal over voltage module
to work properly. Ideally measure the voltage from the battery neg termina
l to the EXP BUS ground. It should be zero VDC=2C anything else indicates a
poor ground. Speaking of the EXP BUS internal over voltage protection=2C
a poor ground could affect its operation causing it to erratically shut dow
n the alternator. This would appear to you as a defective alternator.
Next the alternator:
Try the following with the engine NOT running.
Measure your battery voltage exactly. Next disconnect the 'T' connector at
your alternator. Turn on your master and alternator as if it was connected
(Engine NOT running) and 'again' measure the voltage on the 'IG' pin of the
connector. Now measure the 'L' pin voltage.
The pin that reads the same voltage as the battery should be your 'IG" lead
. The one that reads the battery voltage minus ~.7VDC should be your (LED)
'L' lead. These were my readings using a Fluke digital multimeter.
Failing this=2C remove the alternator and take it to an auto-electrical
shop and ask them to bench test it. If it passes=2C you will know your
problem lies elsewhere.
EXP BUS
If the alternator checks out good=2C then the next item on the list of susp
ects is the EXP BUS Internal Over Voltage Controler. As a test=2C hook up a
temporary Alternator switch ('IG' lead) to bypass the EXP BUS. Fire up the
engine to see if all is well carefully monitoring your voltage to make sur
e you do not in fact have an over voltage condition. If you alternator work
s you now can narrow in on the EXP BUS wiring=2C and then finally=2C the un
it itself.
The idea is to divide and conquer. Still I suspect in the end you will find
that it boils down to a simple wiring error. At least that has been my exp
erience
Good Luck=2C
Vince H.
Washington State - USA
N8432
RV8 - Ready for Final Inspection
> Thanks Ed. I'll check for any signs of high current. I was able to
> check the power at the alternator and the 12V is getting to the right
> pin=2C the warning lamp lead is connected to the right place (and showing
> about 1V=2C not sure if that's what you would expect to see the other sid
e
> of a 12V LED) but it "felt right".
_________________________________________________________________
Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail=AE.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tut
orial_QuickAdd1_052009
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | System Off Current Requirements... |
Greetings,
Since all of the panel and internal wiring is done, I thought I do a "System Off"
current draw check today. There is a "keep alive" buss coming off the VP-200
system that I have connected the GRT HX displays to as well as the Kenwood
DNX8120 and a couple of other things. I've currently got the standard Concord
25RG-XC battery that Van's sells. With the VP-200 system "off", I'm measuring
about 6ma of constant current draw.
My question is, how long is the standard battery going to last with this amount
of draw?
Also, is the Concord 25RG-XC the best choice for batteries? I've got an IO-390
and the battery is mounted in the back of the my RV-8. Is this battery going
to have the staying power to support the electronics I've got as well as crank
the engine?
Thanks in advance for the advice.
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880
Wiring Done, Gear Next...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: System Off Current Requirements... |
At 01:34 PM 5/3/2009, you wrote:
>Greetings,
>
>Since all of the panel and internal wiring is done, I thought I do a
>"System Off" current draw check today. There is a "keep alive" buss
>coming off the VP-200 system that I have connected the GRT HX
>displays to as well as the Kenwood DNX8120 and a couple of other
>things. I've currently got the standard Concord 25RG-XC battery
>that Van's sells. With the VP-200 system "off", I'm measuring about
>6ma of constant current draw.
>
>
>My question is, how long is the standard battery going to last with
>this amount of draw?
Since this battery is rated for service in aircraft
(i.e. not a 20 hr rated but a 1 hr rate) then your
battery charge available to support keep alive loads
is much better than 24000/6 or 4,000 hours. In other
words, if the airplane is flown with some degree of
regularity, those loads are insignificant.
If you were going to park the airplane for several
months, then it would be a good idea to either disconnect
the battery in a fully charged state . . . or leave
a battery tender type charger attached for the duration
of storage.
>Also, is the Concord 25RG-XC the best choice for batteries? I've
>got an IO-390 and the battery is mounted in the back of the my
>RV-8. Is this battery going to have the staying power to support
>the electronics I've got as well as crank the engine?
You don't mention what your e-bus loads are and whether
or not you have more than one engine driven power source.
You need to match your e-bus endurance requirements against
your design goals for battery only operations. There
are RV-8's with rear mounted 18 a.h. battery and Figure Z-13/8
that perform to the owner's design goals . . . but without
knowing more detail about your goals and your system
configuration, real reasoned advice is not possible.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: System Off Current Requirements... |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> If you were going to park the airplane for several
> months, then it would be a good idea to either disconnect
> the battery in a fully charged state . . . or leave
> a battery tender type charger attached for the duration
> of storage.
>
Just an idea. The battery on a Dyke Delta is accessed through an
external panel near the rear of the aircraft. I built my access panel
out of one of those solar trickle chargers.
Two birds. One stone.
Wait. Should I be talking about knocking down birds with rocks on this
list?
--
http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: System Off Current Requirements... |
Matt Dralle wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> Since all of the panel and internal wiring is done, I thought I do a "System
Off" current draw check today. There is a "keep alive" buss coming off the VP-200
system that I have connected the GRT HX displays to as well as the Kenwood
DNX8120 and a couple of other things. I've currently got the standard Concord
25RG-XC battery that Van's sells. With the VP-200 system "off", I'm measuring
about 6ma of constant current draw.
>
> My question is, how long is the standard battery going to last with this amount
of draw?
>
> Also, is the Concord 25RG-XC the best choice for batteries? I've got an IO-390
and the battery is mounted in the back of the my RV-8. Is this battery going
to have the staying power to support the electronics I've got as well as crank
the engine?
>
> Thanks in advance for the advice.
>
> Matt Dralle
> RV-8 #82880
> Wiring Done, Gear Next...
Absolutely stunning panel. Of course, I could support all my flying
habits just on the interest on the money it must have cost. :-)
You shouldn't have any problem with engine start, and once it's running,
the alternator is what powers all your electrical goodies. As long as
the alternator is sized to power everything electrical & still have some
snort to charge the battery, you're good to go.
If the keep-alive buss is drawing 6mA (6 one-thousandths of one amp),
and the battery is a 25 ampere/hour battery (25 thousand mA/hr), then it
should theoretically last a bit less than 25,000/6=4,166 hours. With a
generous fudge factor, call it better than 3000 hrs if the battery is in
perfect condition and fully charged. Somebody check my math.
Have you done the 'dead alternator' analysis to see how long the battery
will keep your essential electrical stuff alive if the alternator fails
in flight? For that, you need the manufacturer's info sheet on how long
it will last at *your* essential equipment's current draw. (It's not a
linear function.)
Charlie
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "cskelt(at)earthlink.net" <cskelt(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | What can GPS and XM antennas see through? |
Folks, I'm installing a Garmin 496 in my Lancair 320. The Garmin manual suggests
placing the GPS and XM antennas supplied with the unit where they can see the
sky through the canopy. This could be achieved by placing the two devices
on the glare shield. However it would be an easier installation if I were to
place the two antennas below the glare shield. This way, there'd be no awkward
electrical connections to deal with when removing or replacing the glare shield.
If the antennas can see through perspex, (or laminated auto glass) can they
additionally see through the skinny fiberglass molding covered with headlining
material? Thanks in advance for any advice.
Chris Skelt.
__________________
cskelt(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: What can GPS and XM antennas see through? |
Good Evening Chris,
The antennas will look through that glareshield just fine. However, you
must remember that any distance below the very top of the airplane will reduce
the amount of sky that can be seen via the antennas.
We have found that antennas mounted on top of the glove box and under the
glareshield work reasonably well in various Bonanzas.
Happy Skies
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
628 West 86th Street
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
In a message dated 5/3/2009 5:21:28 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
cskelt(at)earthlink.net writes:
Folks, I'm installing a Garmin 496 in my Lancair 320. The Garmin manual
suggests placing the GPS and XM antennas supplied with the unit where they
can see the sky through the canopy. This could be achieved by placing the
two devices on the glare shield. However it would be an easier installation
if I were to place the two antennas below the glare shield. This way,
there'd be no awkward electrical connections to deal with when removing or
replacing the glare shield. If the antennas can see through perspex, (or
laminated auto glass) can they additionally see through the skinny fiberglass
molding covered with headlining material? Thanks in advance for any advice.
Chris Skelt.
__________________
_cskelt(at)earthlink.net_ (mailto:cskelt(at)earthlink.net)
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
**************The Average US Credit Score is 692. See Yours in Just 2 Easy
Steps!
ay5309AvgfooterNO62)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | What can GPS and XM antennas see through? |
Are there any published specs as to what materials, at what thickness,
satellite antennas can see through without a large attenuation of signal
strength? If so can you point me toward them?
Thanks,
Roger
Good Evening Chris,
The antennas will look through that glareshield just fine. However, you
must
remember that any distance below the very top of the airplane will
reduce
the amount of sky that can be seen via the antennas.
We have found that antennas mounted on top of the glove box and under
the
glareshield work reasonably well in various Bonanzas.
Happy Skies
Old Bob
In a message dated 5/3/2009 5:21:28 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
cskelt(at)earthlink.net writes:
Folks, I'm installing a Garmin 496 in my Lancair 320. The Garmin manual
suggests placing the GPS and XM antennas supplied with the unit where
they
can see the sky through the canopy. This could be achieved by placing
the
two devices on the glare shield. However it would be an easier
installation
if I were to place the two antennas below the glare shield. This way,
there'd be no awkward electrical connections to deal with when removing
or
replacing the glare shield. If the antennas can see through perspex,
(or
laminated auto glass) can they additionally see through the skinny
fiberglass molding covered with headlining material? Thanks in advance
for
any advice.
Chris Skelt.
__________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: System Off Current Requirements... |
| From: | "user9253" <fran5sew(at)banyanol.com> |
I see some space left on the panel that is not being used. What a waste!
I can imagine his radio transmissions:
Center: descend and maintain 7 thousand. Turn right heading 320 degrees. Contact
approach control on 126.65.
Matt: Center, can you wait until the commercial? I do not want to miss this
good part on TV. [Laughing]
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242558#242558
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Re: System Off Current Requirements... |
At 04:36 PM 5/3/2009 Sunday, you wrote:
>
>I see some space left on the panel that is not being used. What a waste!
>
>I can imagine his radio transmissions:
>
>Center: descend and maintain 7 thousand. Turn right heading 320 degrees. Contact
approach control on 126.65.
>
>Matt: Center, can you wait until the commercial? I do not want to miss this
>good part on TV. [Laughing]
>
>Joe
Now, that's funny, right there...!
:-)
Matt
PS - And, btw, I'm saving that little space on the right hand side of the panel
for an analog HOBBS meter. NOT. ;-)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "richard sipp" <rsipp(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: What can GPS and XM antennas see through? |
I have these antennas mounted ahead of the firewall under the ~1/8 thick
painted fiberglass cowling. No problems at one year in service.
I believe this is a relatively common practice in the RV community.
Dick Sipp
RV10 N110DV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | What can GPS and XM antennas see through? |
5/4/2009
Hello Chris, When I discussed this subject with a Garmin technical rep he
said that placing the antenna for my GNS 430 inside the fiberglass fuselage
molding of my KIS TR-1 should not be a problem, but that mounting the
antenna on an aluminum plate would help shield the antenna from
electromagnetic noise coming from below.
I mounted the antenna on an aluminum shelf inside the fuselage molding
between the firewall and the instrument panel (lots of electromagnetic
generating stuff in that area). The installation has worked perfectly -- I
now have a 430W antenna in that location.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
===================================================
From: "cskelt(at)earthlink.net" <cskelt(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: What can GPS and XM antennas see through?
Folks, I'm installing a Garmin 496 in my Lancair 320. The Garmin manual
suggests
placing the GPS and XM antennas supplied with the unit where they can see
the
sky through the canopy. This could be achieved by placing the two devices
on the glare shield. However it would be an easier installation if I were
to
place the two antennas below the glare shield. This way, there'd be no
awkward
electrical connections to deal with when removing or replacing the glare
shield.
If the antennas can see through perspex, (or laminated auto glass) can they
additionally see through the skinny fiberglass molding covered with
headlining
material? Thanks in advance for any advice.
Chris Skelt.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: System Off Current Requirements... |
At 03:03 PM 5/3/2009, you wrote:
>
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>
>> If you were going to park the airplane for several
>> months, then it would be a good idea to either disconnect
>> the battery in a fully charged state . . . or leave
>> a battery tender type charger attached for the duration
>> of storage.
>Just an idea. The battery on a Dyke Delta is accessed through an
>external panel near the rear of the aircraft. I built my access
>panel out of one of those solar trickle chargers.
>
>Two birds. One stone.
>
>Wait. Should I be talking about knocking down birds with rocks on this list?
Solar chargers should be applied with understanding
and some caution. These are rudimentary "trickle"
chargers without regulation. Some readers of this
forum many moons ago fitted solar chargers to their
hangar roofs and left them attached to the battery
for the duration of winter storage. They came back
to find the battery trashed.
AGM/SVLA batteries have exceedingly low self-discharge
rates. If stored fully charged, they should start your
engine a year later. But this thread started with
a query about keep-alive currents that are perhaps
2 to 5 times the battery's self discharge rates. These
are worthy of some external support if the airplane
is not going to be flown for several weeks to months.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | off-line for most of the week . . . |
I'm traveling to SoCal to work with clients
on an electrical system architecture problem. I'll
keep tabs on the List through the browser access
utility on Matt's server but probably won't
engage in any extended conversation. Will be
back in Wichita Thursday if things go well, Friday
if not so well.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: System Off Current Requirements... |
| From: | Ian <ixb(at)videotron.ca> |
So is there any way to use solar to maintain the charge on my RV9A? How
about connecting the panel to a 110V inverter and then back using a
good quality maintenance charger? Would the losses in the conversion to
110V and back be too great for the tiny currents generated by a
relatively small solar panel?
Ian Brown, Bromont, Quebec
>
> At 03:03 PM 5/3/2009, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> >>
> >> If you were going to park the airplane for several
> >> months, then it would be a good idea to either disconnect
> >> the battery in a fully charged state . . . or leave
> >> a battery tender type charger attached for the duration
> >> of storage.
> >Just an idea. The battery on a Dyke Delta is accessed through an
> >external panel near the rear of the aircraft. I built my access
> >panel out of one of those solar trickle chargers.
> >
> >Two birds. One stone.
> >
> >Wait. Should I be talking about knocking down birds with rocks on this list?
>
> Solar chargers should be applied with understanding
> and some caution. These are rudimentary "trickle"
> chargers without regulation. Some readers of this
> forum many moons ago fitted solar chargers to their
> hangar roofs and left them attached to the battery
> for the duration of winter storage. They came back
> to find the battery trashed.
>
> AGM/SVLA batteries have exceedingly low self-discharge
> rates. If stored fully charged, they should start your
> engine a year later. But this thread started with
> a query about keep-alive currents that are perhaps
> 2 to 5 times the battery's self discharge rates. These
> are worthy of some external support if the airplane
> is not going to be flown for several weeks to months.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------)
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | paul wilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com> |
| Subject: | What can GPS and XM antennas see through? |
Dirt simple test for your plane will yield the results you need.
Example I use a gps in my truck with a solid metal roof 2 gps one
with internal antenna one with external antenna laying on the dash.
No reduction in sensitivity or position error is noted. In my other
trucks one with sheet molded plastic roof and the other with a
fiberglass shell. same result. Just find some material to match your
construction and turn on the devices. I am sure you will find
excellent results. These days antenna placement is not critical.
Paul
========
At 05:08 PM 5/3/2009, you wrote:
>Are there any published specs as to what materials, at what
>thickness, satellite antennas can see through without a large
>attenuation of signal strength? If so can you point me toward them?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Roger
>
>
>Good Evening Chris,
>
>The antennas will look through that glareshield just fine. However,
>you must remember that any distance below the very top of the
>airplane will reduce the amount of sky that can be seen via the antennas.
>
>We have found that antennas mounted on top of the glove box and
>under the glareshield work reasonably well in various Bonanzas.
>
>Happy Skies
>
>Old Bob
>
>
>In a message dated 5/3/2009 5:21:28 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
>cskelt(at)earthlink.net writes:
>Folks, I'm installing a Garmin 496 in my Lancair 320. The Garmin
>manual suggests placing the GPS and XM antennas supplied with the
>unit where they can see the sky through the canopy. This could be
>achieved by placing the two devices on the glare shield. However it
>would be an easier installation if I were to place the two antennas
>below the glare shield. This way, there'd be no awkward electrical
>connections to deal with when removing or replacing the glare
>shield. If the antennas can see through perspex, (or laminated auto
>glass) can they additionally see through the skinny fiberglass
>molding covered with headlining material? Thanks in advance for any advice.
>
>Chris Skelt.
>__________________
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net> |
| Subject: | Re: System Off Current Requirements... |
Matt,
<< I built my access panel out of one of those solar trickle chargers.>>
<< Solar chargers should be applied with understanding
and some caution. These are rudimentary "trickle"
chargers without regulation. Some readers of this
forum many moons ago fitted solar chargers to their
hangar roofs and left them attached to the battery
for the duration of winter storage. They came back
to find the battery trashed. >>
You might wish to consult the article by Jim Weir in January 2007 Kitplanes
about building a smart solar charger.
Tom Kuffel
Whitefish, MT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rob du Plooy" <rduplooy(at)iafrica.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What can GPS and XM antennas see through? |
Our Rv-4 has the antenna mounted in the same place ( As Dick Sipp- FWF under
fibreglass cowling) for the Garmin XL250...
Aquires satellites quickly, and navigates faultlessly to destinations...even
after 300 hrs.
Robert du Plooy
> >
> I have these antennas mounted ahead of the firewall under the ~1/8 thick
> painted fiberglass cowling. No problems at one year in service.
> I believe this is a relatively common practice in the RV community.
>
> Dick Sipp
> RV10 N110DV
>
>
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kevin Sheely" <ksheely(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Recommendation for schematic using only 1 B&C |
PM alternator/Dual Lightspeed II
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mchristian(at)canetics.com |
| Subject: | Re: What can GPS and XM antennas see through? |
On my Cirrus, the two GPS antennas are velcro'd to the underneath of the glareshield
and they work just fine.
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | What can GPS and XM antennas see through? |
Chris,
On my legacy I added a shelf to the side of the fuse just behind the
storage bulkhead. The shelf is mounted about even with rudder channel.
With the bulkhead cover on I still get great reception even in the
hangar (door open).
Here's a picture
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_hkAHk0Xu6wo/SHOnYZwaZwI/AAAAAAAAAZQ/RsdsLydOu7
0/s1600-h/IMG_1171.JPG
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of paul
wilson
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 10:01 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: What can GPS and XM antennas see
through?
Dirt simple test for your plane will yield the results you need. Example
I use a gps in my truck with a solid metal roof 2 gps one with internal
antenna one with external antenna laying on the dash. No reduction in
sensitivity or position error is noted. In my other trucks one with
sheet molded plastic roof and the other with a fiberglass shell. same
result. Just find some material to match your construction and turn on
the devices. I am sure you will find excellent results. These days
antenna placement is not critical.
Paul
========
At 05:08 PM 5/3/2009, you wrote:
Are there any published specs as to what materials, at what thickness,
satellite antennas can see through without a large attenuation of signal
strength? If so can you point me toward them?
Thanks,
Roger
Good Evening Chris,
The antennas will look through that glareshield just fine. However, you
must remember that any distance below the very top of the airplane will
reduce the amount of sky that can be seen via the antennas.
We have found that antennas mounted on top of the glove box and under
the glareshield work reasonably well in various Bonanzas.
Happy Skies
Old Bob
In a message dated 5/3/2009 5:21:28 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
cskelt(at)earthlink.net writes:
Folks, I'm installing a Garmin 496 in my Lancair 320. The Garmin manual
suggests placing the GPS and XM antennas supplied with the unit where
they can see the sky through the canopy. This could be achieved by
placing the two devices on the glare shield. However it would be an
easier installation if I were to place the two antennas below the glare
shield. This way, there'd be no awkward electrical connections to deal
with when removing or replacing the glare shield. If the antennas can
see through perspex, (or laminated auto glass) can they additionally see
through the skinny fiberglass molding covered with headlining material?
Thanks in advance for any advice.
Chris Skelt.
__________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David LLoyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: System Off Current Requirements... |
Tom is completely correct.... most so called 12 v. solar panels can go up as
high as 18 v. Even though the current is small from a small wattage panel
it can still gas out a 12 v. battery after time. Low power panels can be
easily regulated with a simple zener diode or other similar solid state
device. Just don't exceed the current that it can shunt. A panel with 0.25
amp of current should be capable of maintaining healthy batteries, but, it
must be regulated to not go over about 13.2 v while charging.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net>
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 7:22 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: System Off Current Requirements...
>
>
> Matt,
>
> << I built my access panel out of one of those solar trickle chargers.>>
>
> << Solar chargers should be applied with understanding
> and some caution. These are rudimentary "trickle"
> chargers without regulation. Some readers of this
> forum many moons ago fitted solar chargers to their
> hangar roofs and left them attached to the battery
> for the duration of winter storage. They came back
> to find the battery trashed. >>
>
> You might wish to consult the article by Jim Weir in January 2007
> Kitplanes about building a smart solar charger.
>
> Tom Kuffel
> Whitefish, MT
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David LLoyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: What can GPS and XM antennas see through? |
All GPS antennas and receivers are not the same as we all know. Most do not
like to have their antennas "shielded" by anything. That can includes ice
and snow too.
And, there are GPS units that use receivers so sensitive, they work just
fine inside a building. Take the little Garmin portable, 60CSx is one. I
do not know what gps chip set it uses, but, that little unit is a 100 fold
more sensitive than our multi-thousand dollar units. Put it in your pocket
or lunch box, sit under a grove of trees and it keeps ticking. So, go with
the factory recommendation and give the antenna a free view of the sky.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob du Plooy" <rduplooy(at)iafrica.com>
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 7:59 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: What can GPS and XM antennas see through?
>
>
> Our Rv-4 has the antenna mounted in the same place ( As Dick Sipp- FWF
> under fibreglass cowling) for the Garmin XL250...
>
> Aquires satellites quickly, and navigates faultlessly to
> destinations...even after 300 hrs.
>
> Robert du Plooy
>
>
>> >
>> I have these antennas mounted ahead of the firewall under the ~1/8 thick
>> painted fiberglass cowling. No problems at one year in service.
>> I believe this is a relatively common practice in the RV community.
>>
>> Dick Sipp
>> RV10 N110DV
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Solar chargers (was System Off Current Requirements...) |
David
For an electronically ignorant guy, which is the zener diode I should buy to
regulate the current from a solar panel?
How should it be installed?
Carlos
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-
> server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David LLoyd
> Sent: segunda-feira, 4 de Maio de 2009 18:07
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: System Off Current Requirements...
>
>
> Tom is completely correct.... most so called 12 v. solar panels can go up
as
> high as 18 v. Even though the current is small from a small wattage panel
> it can still gas out a 12 v. battery after time. Low power panels can be
> easily regulated with a simple zener diode or other similar solid state
> device. Just don't exceed the current that it can shunt. A panel with
0.25
> amp of current should be capable of maintaining healthy batteries, but, it
> must be regulated to not go over about 13.2 v while charging.
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 7:22 AM
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: System Off Current Requirements...
>
>
> >
> >
> > Matt,
> >
> > << I built my access panel out of one of those solar trickle
chargers.>>
> >
> > << Solar chargers should be applied with understanding
> > and some caution. These are rudimentary "trickle"
> > chargers without regulation. Some readers of this
> > forum many moons ago fitted solar chargers to their
> > hangar roofs and left them attached to the battery
> > for the duration of winter storage. They came back
> > to find the battery trashed. >>
> >
> > You might wish to consult the article by Jim Weir in January 2007
> > Kitplanes about building a smart solar charger.
> >
> > Tom Kuffel
> > Whitefish, MT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Tunnel grounding |
| From: | "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com> |
Hi guys,
This is my first post on this forum. I am looking forward to learning at the knees
of the braintrust.
I just finished the 'lectric bible and really enjoyed it, (that which I could understand
at least).
I am building an RV-10 and have settled for now on the one battery two alternator
scheme, and am planning to run a #2 ground wire from the (rear) batt to a forest
of grounds at the firewall.
My specific question for today has to do with grounding items in the center tunnel,
specifically, the fuel totalizer, fuel pump, flap actuator, flap position
selector, and a flap position sensor (wouldn't it be great if those two could
be combined into one geewhiz?)
At any rate, the question that I have on grounding those items is should I:
1. Ground each locally?
2. Run a separate ground for each to the front forest?
3. Run each to a mini forest in the tunnel that has its own ground wire to either
the front ground forest or back to the battery?
Thanks in advance.
--------
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242685#242685
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Soldering Micro Switches |
I probably don't have the touch of some of you really experienced
soldering folks, but I'm trying to work on a technique for soldering
those itsy-bitsy connectors on the micro-switches. I either touch the
switch accidentally and melt the casing or heat up the connectors to the
point that solder melts and then I sit there watching the connector sink
or break off.
Is there some best combination of heat / thin solder that works best
for the micro switches and small LED lights that I might try?
I suppose if you have the luxury of throwing your airplane on the
workbench and putting the panel in a vice it may not be a problem.
Trying to do this in the field holding 3 wires up with one hand and the
soldering gun in another is a real pain.
Suggestions appreciated.
Thanks,
Glenn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David LLoyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Solar chargers (was System Off Current Requirements...) |
Carlos,
If you are using a solar panel for example that puts out 1/4 amp. max
current, then I would use a zener diode that is rated for 1/2 amp or
more. I don't know the cost of zeners these days. The higher current
types maybe nearly as cheap as the lower current models. Also, you need
to buy one that the breakdown step, Vz, occurs at or near 13.2 v. If
you can't find one at 13.2 then, get the next larger voltage.
If the next available is too high but is the only available type, then,
buy it, and some cheap 1 amp plain diodes as they can be used to bring
the zener break voltage back down to the desired 13.2. Each diode
connected in series with the zener, will drop the voltage approx. 0.5 to
0.6 volt. Thus, if you have a 14.2 v. zener and put 2 diodes in series
with it, the final result will be a zener looking like it is regulating
to about 13 to 13.2 v. which is what you are looking for.
You also need a series resister to limit the shunted current in case a
short occurs somewhere, At this point, you need to find a buddy that
knows electronics and mention the idea to him and he will know how to
wire it up or even find a one piece device that is better than a zener
that is still cheap. You might wait until Bob returns and ask him the
same question as he is super current on all the devices available today.
I am a bit of a dinosaur being a retired EE engineer.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Carlos Trigo
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 11:11 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Solar chargers (was System Off Current
Requirements...)
David
For an electronically ignorant guy, which is the zener diode I should
buy to regulate the current from a solar panel?
How should it be installed?
Carlos
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-
> server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David LLoyd
> Sent: segunda-feira, 4 de Maio de 2009 18:07
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: System Off Current Requirements...
>
>
> Tom is completely correct.... most so called 12 v. solar panels can
go up as
> high as 18 v. Even though the current is small from a small wattage
panel
> it can still gas out a 12 v. battery after time. Low power panels
can be
> easily regulated with a simple zener diode or other similar solid
state
> device. Just don't exceed the current that it can shunt. A panel
with 0.25
> amp of current should be capable of maintaining healthy batteries,
but, it
> must be regulated to not go over about 13.2 v while charging.
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 7:22 AM
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: System Off Current Requirements...
>
>
> >
> >
> > Matt,
> >
> > << I built my access panel out of one of those solar trickle
chargers.>>
> >
> > << Solar chargers should be applied with understanding
> > and some caution. These are rudimentary "trickle"
> > chargers without regulation. Some readers of this
> > forum many moons ago fitted solar chargers to their
> > hangar roofs and left them attached to the battery
> > for the duration of winter storage. They came back
> > to find the battery trashed. >>
> >
> > You might wish to consult the article by Jim Weir in January 2007
> > Kitplanes about building a smart solar charger.
> >
> > Tom Kuffel
> > Whitefish, MT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ==========
> AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
> browse
> Un/Subscription,
> FAQ,
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
> ==========
> bsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> Forums!
>
>
>
> ==========
> bsp; - List Contribution Web Site -
>
> bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Tunnel grounding |
Myron, I'm not an expert here but since I'm knee deep in my '10, I
thought I'd share my thinking and doing at this point....
- I'm locally (on the tunnel structure) grounding all of the items you
mentioned except for my GRT fuel flow sensor which is grounded on my
forest of tabs. I figure the fuel flow sensor might be sensitive to
ground issues.
- I have my 2 batteries well grounded to the airframe using the approach
Bob has documented on his site
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Battery_Grounds/Battery_Grounds.html
- I have a forest of tabs on the firewall but I ran a #8 cable to it.
Most of my panel is run to it. I'm depending on the engine being well
grounded through the airframe for starting so I figure I don't need more
than a #8.
btw, the FAA's Acceptable Methods has great detail on how to do airframe
ground connections (lock washers, materials, etc)
Hope some of that helps.
Bill "going to run some wires" Watson
RV10 40605
woxofswa wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
>
> This is my first post on this forum. I am looking forward to learning at the
knees of the braintrust.
>
> I just finished the 'lectric bible and really enjoyed it, (that which I could
understand at least).
>
> I am building an RV-10 and have settled for now on the one battery two alternator
scheme, and am planning to run a #2 ground wire from the (rear) batt to a
forest of grounds at the firewall.
>
> My specific question for today has to do with grounding items in the center tunnel,
specifically, the fuel totalizer, fuel pump, flap actuator, flap position
selector, and a flap position sensor (wouldn't it be great if those two could
be combined into one geewhiz?)
>
> At any rate, the question that I have on grounding those items is should I:
>
> 1. Ground each locally?
> 2. Run a separate ground for each to the front forest?
> 3. Run each to a mini forest in the tunnel that has its own ground wire to either
the front ground forest or back to the battery?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> --------
> Myron Nelson
> Mesa, AZ
> Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242685#242685
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Soldering Micro Switches |
Hi Glenn,
My suggestion would be to first get the wires attached mechanically so
that you don't have to hold them. Tin the ends of the wires before
wraping them around the terminal. This means, flow just a little
solder on the end so the strands will stay together. You should still
be able to see the individual strands through the solder (don't have a
big glob on there).
Second use a small diameter, 0.032 inch or so, 63/37 tin/lead
solder with a rosin core. The 63/37 has a lower melting point than
60/40 and when it cools it pretty much all turns solid at once. The
rosin flux usually does a good job cleaning up any oxidation that would
prevent a good solder joint. Never use acid flux.
Third hold the soldering iron in one hand and the solder in the other.
I used to use my teeth to hold the solder but about 30 years ago or so,
the safety types convinced me it wasn't a good idea. :) It helps to
melt just a bit of solder onto the iron. You get better heat
conduction to the joint through a small amount of liquid solder than
just holding the iron against the wires. Having done that, apply the
iron to one side of the joint, and solder to the other. When the solder
flows, remove the solder and heat and let it solidify.
Fourth practice at the bench until it's working for you. If at all
possible do the actual wiring at the bench. It's much easier.
Another tip: Don't solder laying on your back with the joint above
your face or any other body parts. You probably wouldn't do it more
than once anyway. I didn't.
Bob W.
wrote:
> I probably don't have the touch of some of you really experienced
> soldering folks, but I'm trying to work on a technique for soldering
> those itsy-bitsy connectors on the micro-switches. I either touch the
> switch accidentally and melt the casing or heat up the connectors to the
> point that solder melts and then I sit there watching the connector sink
> or break off.
>
>
>
> Is there some best combination of heat / thin solder that works best
> for the micro switches and small LED lights that I might try?
>
>
>
> I suppose if you have the luxury of throwing your airplane on the
> workbench and putting the panel in a vice it may not be a problem.
> Trying to do this in the field holding 3 wires up with one hand and the
> soldering gun in another is a real pain.
>
>
>
> Suggestions appreciated.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Glenn
>
>
--
N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com
3.8 Hours Total Time and holding
Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Soldering Micro Switches |
longg(at)pjm.com wrote:
>
> I suppose if you have the luxury of throwing your airplane on the
> workbench and putting the panel in a vice it may not be a problem.
> Trying to do this in the field holding 3 wires up with one hand and
> the soldering gun in another is a real pain.
>
If you are using a soldering "gun" that is part of your problem. Get a
good, low wattage soldering iron. It will have a small,
high-temperature tip and will make soldering of small connections much
easier.
Use 60/40 or 63/37 solder. This is (at least the 63/37) eutectic solder
- which means that it is either liquid or solid - no mushy intermediate
state. Makes getting good solder joints much easier. Also, get solder
that is thin enough. Unless the joint is very large, 0.025 or 0.032
diameter is plenty. I even have some 0.015 that I use once in a while
for really small joints.
Also, if you are getting up there in age (as I am) get a magnifier so
you can see what you are doing. You would be surprised how much it
helps when you can really see the little parts up close ;-) .
Dick
--
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph Finch" <rgf(at)dcn.davis.ca.us> |
| Subject: | Reducing RF noise for a Luxeon PowerPuck |
I'm making some LED navigation lights. Being part Irish and stubborn I
decided to try the Luxeon PowerPuck
(http://www.luxeonstar.com/powerpuck-700ma-dc-led-driver-with-leads-p-27.php
) even though I also had Robert Nuckolls' filtered Buck Puck. Sure enough
the PowerPuck produces RF noise, measured by a hand-held Icom receiver.
Squelch has to be turned nearly all the way up to silence the receiver.
Now the PowerPuck data sheet
(http://www.leddynamics.com/LuxDrive/datasheets/2008B-PowerPuck.pdf) has a
specific fix for RF noise, a 220uf cap between the input leads (page 4). I
got the appropriate cap from Radio Shack and simply stuck it between the
input leads without shortening the cap's wires or soldering it. No
difference in RF noise.
At this point I can think of these options:
1. Replace the Luxeon PowerPuck with the filtered Buck Puck.
2. Replace the Luxeon PowerPuck with a resistor of appropriate wattage and
resistance.
3. Do nothing, maybe the RF noise isn't that bad.
4. Or, being part Irish and stubborn, try to filter the RF noise of the
Luxeon PowerPuck.
I'd like to try 4. a little more. What more can I do to filter the noise.
Would the caps and coils used to filter the Buck Puck work for the Luxeon?
Maybe use telephone wire (unshielded twisted pair)?
Thanks,
Ralph Finch
Davis, CA, USA
RV-9A QB SA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Leffler" <rv(at)thelefflers.com> |
| Subject: | Reducing RF noise for a Luxeon PowerPuck |
Ralph,
I'm confused here. Why don't you just use the filtered unit that Bob K. has
designed? It seems that your #4 option is just re-inventing the wheel.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph
Finch
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 12:54 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Reducing RF noise for a Luxeon PowerPuck
I'm making some LED navigation lights. Being part Irish and stubborn I
decided to try the Luxeon PowerPuck
(http://www.luxeonstar.com/powerpuck-700ma-dc-led-driver-with-leads-p-27.php
) even though I also had Robert Nuckolls' filtered Buck Puck. Sure enough
the PowerPuck produces RF noise, measured by a hand-held Icom receiver.
Squelch has to be turned nearly all the way up to silence the receiver.
Now the PowerPuck data sheet
(http://www.leddynamics.com/LuxDrive/datasheets/2008B-PowerPuck.pdf) has a
specific fix for RF noise, a 220uf cap between the input leads (page 4). I
got the appropriate cap from Radio Shack and simply stuck it between the
input leads without shortening the cap's wires or soldering it. No
difference in RF noise.
At this point I can think of these options:
1. Replace the Luxeon PowerPuck with the filtered Buck Puck.
2. Replace the Luxeon PowerPuck with a resistor of appropriate wattage and
resistance.
3. Do nothing, maybe the RF noise isn't that bad.
4. Or, being part Irish and stubborn, try to filter the RF noise of the
Luxeon PowerPuck.
I'd like to try 4. a little more. What more can I do to filter the noise.
Would the caps and coils used to filter the Buck Puck work for the Luxeon?
Maybe use telephone wire (unshielded twisted pair)?
Thanks,
Ralph Finch
Davis, CA, USA
RV-9A QB SA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph Finch" <rgf(at)dcn.davis.ca.us> |
| Subject: | Reducing RF noise for a Luxeon PowerPuck |
> It seems that your #4 option is just re-inventing the wheel.
Yes.
> Why don't you just use the filtered unit that Bob K. has
designed?
Part Irish and all stubborn. I probably will end up using
Nuckolls' filtered Buck Puck...but am curious why using
the capacitor as suggested by the manufacturer didn't seem
to have any effect on RF noise.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Solar chargers (was System Off Current Requirements...) |
| From: | Ian <ixb(at)videotron.ca> |
I'd suggest you read the specs on the solar panel. My local store sells
a variety of them and they seem to come with over-voltage and
under-voltage protection, even for the cheapest.
The Powersports 1W (80mA) charger is sometimes on sale here for as
little as $15, and it includes protection against both over charging,
and draining the battery.
You don't really need a lot of Power if you're just trying to top up the
battery during extended periods of inactivity. The alternator would do
a much better job if you're flying often.
Ian Brown
> Carlos,
>
> If you are using a solar panel for example that puts out 1/4 amp. max
> current, then I would use a zener diode that is rated for 1/2 amp or
> more. I don't know the cost of zeners these days. The higher current
> types maybe nearly as cheap as the lower current models. Also, you
> need to buy one that the breakdown step, Vz, occurs at or near 13.2 v.
> If you can't find one at 13.2 then, get the next larger voltage.
>
> If the next available is too high but is the only available type,
> then, buy it, and some cheap 1 amp plain diodes as they can be used to
> bring the zener break voltage back down to the desired 13.2. Each
> diode connected in series with the zener, will drop the voltage
> approx. 0.5 to 0.6 volt. Thus, if you have a 14.2 v. zener and put 2
> diodes in series with it, the final result will be a zener looking
> like it is regulating to about 13 to 13.2 v. which is what you are
> looking for.
>
> You also need a series resister to limit the shunted current in case a
> short occurs somewhere, At this point, you need to find a buddy that
> knows electronics and mention the idea to him and he will know how to
> wire it up or even find a one piece device that is better than a zener
> that is still cheap. You might wait until Bob returns and ask him the
> same question as he is super current on all the devices available
> today. I am a bit of a dinosaur being a retired EE engineer.
> Dave
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Carlos Trigo
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 11:11 AM
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Solar chargers (was System Off
> Current Requirements...)
>
>
> David
>
>
>
> For an electronically ignorant guy, which is the zener diode I
> should buy to regulate the current from a solar panel?
>
> How should it be installed?
>
>
>
> Carlos
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-
>
> > server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David LLoyd
>
> > Sent: segunda-feira, 4 de Maio de 2009 18:07
>
> > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>
> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: System Off Current
> Requirements...
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
> > Tom is completely correct.... most so called 12 v. solar
> panels can go up as
>
> > high as 18 v. Even though the current is small from a small
> wattage panel
>
> > it can still gas out a 12 v. battery after time. Low power
> panels can be
>
> > easily regulated with a simple zener diode or other similar
> solid state
>
> > device. Just don't exceed the current that it can shunt. A
> panel with 0.25
>
> > amp of current should be capable of maintaining healthy
> batteries, but, it
>
> > must be regulated to not go over about 13.2 v while
> charging.
>
> > Dave
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
>
> > From: "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net>
>
> > To:
>
> > Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 7:22 AM
>
> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: System Off Current
> Requirements...
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > Matt,
>
> > >
>
> > > << I built my access panel out of one of those solar
> trickle chargers.>>
>
> > >
>
> > > << Solar chargers should be applied with understanding
>
> > > and some caution. These are rudimentary "trickle"
>
> > > chargers without regulation. Some readers of this
>
> > > forum many moons ago fitted solar chargers to their
>
> > > hangar roofs and left them attached to the battery
>
> > > for the duration of winter storage. They came back
>
> > > to find the battery trashed. >>
>
> > >
>
> > > You might wish to consult the article by Jim Weir in
> January 2007
>
> > > Kitplanes about building a smart solar charger.
>
> > >
>
> > > Tom Kuffel
>
> > > Whitefish, MT
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ==========
>
> > AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
>
> > browse
>
> > Un/Subscription,
>
> > FAQ,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
> >
>
> > ==========
>
> > bsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
>
> > Forums!
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ==========
>
> > bsp; - List Contribution Web Site -
>
> >
>
> > bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
> > http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> > ==========
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Soldering Micro Switches |
Dick & Bob,
Thanks for the sound advice. I'm eager to make good on the small stuff.
Glenn
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Richard E. Tasker
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Soldering Micro Switches
longg(at)pjm.com wrote:
I suppose if you have the luxury of throwing your airplane on the
workbench and putting the panel in a vice it may not be a problem.
Trying to do this in the field holding 3 wires up with one hand and the
soldering gun in another is a real pain.
If you are using a soldering "gun" that is part of your problem. Get a
good, low wattage soldering iron. It will have a small,
high-temperature tip and will make soldering of small connections much
easier.
Use 60/40 or 63/37 solder. This is (at least the 63/37) eutectic solder
- which means that it is either liquid or solid - no mushy intermediate
state. Makes getting good solder joints much easier. Also, get solder
that is thin enough. Unless the joint is very large, 0.025 or 0.032
diameter is plenty. I even have some 0.015 that I use once in a while
for really small joints.
Also, if you are getting up there in age (as I am) get a magnifier so
you can see what you are doing. You would be surprised how much it
helps when you can really see the little parts up close ;-) .
Dick
--
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede,
however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily
inconvenienced.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joe Dubner <jdubner(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Reducing RF noise for a Luxeon PowerPuck |
Ralph Finch wrote:
> but am curious why using
> the capacitor as suggested by the manufacturer didn't seem
> to have any effect on RF noise.
Ralph,
I don't have any specific knowledge of your parts but hey, this is the
Internet :-) And you said you are curious.
In spite of the manufacturer's recommendation, a 220 uF capacitor is
totally ineffective at reducing RF noise at VHF. And even if it was
effective, installing it with long leads would negate that. (The 220 uF
capacitor is recommended by the manufacturer is for another purpose).
My recommendation would be to solder a .001 uF (1000 pF) capacitor with
the shortest leads possible across the input and output of the module.
And keep all wiring as short as practical. Twisting the Vin positive
and negative leads would be good too.
--
Joe
Independence, OR
Aircraft Position: http://www.mail2600.com/position
Aircraft Track: http://www.mail2600.com/track
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Reducing RF noise for a Luxeon PowerPuck |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
I too, experimented with the PowerPuck to see what I could do about the noise.
The big capacitor was a waste of time. I finally dissolved off the potting to
study the problem and decided that it was just a poor design (Hey, even PCB designers
have to start someplace). I was thus surprised when Bob N. decided to
try to quiet it. I have not seen Aeroelectric feedback to see how successful
the filter design was, but I personally doubt it was worthwhile.
There are better approached than to try to fix someone else's bad designs:
Try: www.Astrodyne.com for good designs for short money. Alternatively if you was a really quiet solution, build yourself a Linear current regulator using an LM317 or similar: www.periheliondesign.com/downloads/currentregulators.pdf
but you won't get the low current of the switcher design.
If you want to build LED position lights, see my article on the subject.
www.periheliondesign.com/downloads/redandgreenledpositionlights.pdf
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242807#242807
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Reducing RF noise for a Luxeon PowerPuck |
Ralph Finch wrote:
>
>
>> It seems that your #4 option is just re-inventing the wheel.
>>
>
> Yes.
>
>
>> Why don't you just use the filtered unit that Bob K. has
>>
> designed?
>
> Part Irish and all stubborn. I probably will end up using
> Nuckolls' filtered Buck Puck...but am curious why using
> the capacitor as suggested by the manufacturer didn't seem
> to have any effect on RF noise.
>
It's very possible that your "stick the leads to the contacts" was a
very high resistance joint. The long leads could also act as antennae.
It doesn't take much radiated noise for it to be picked up only a few
feet away. RF can be nasty stuff to work with sometimes. It will often
do what it wants, before what you want.
--
http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Reducing RF noise for a Luxeon PowerPuck |
| From: | "nuckollsr" <bob.nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
I too, experimented with the PowerPuck to see what I could do about the noise.
The big capacitor was a waste of time. I finally dissolved off the potting to
study the problem and decided that it was just a poor design (Hey, even PCB designers
have to start someplace). I was thus surprised when Bob N. decided to
try to quiet it. I have not seen Aeroelectric feedback to see how successful the
filter design was, but I personally doubt it was worthwhile.
There are better approached than to try to fix someone else's bad designs:
Still out in California working a client's problem but thought I'd offer a response.
I decided to try to "quiet it" because that was the task. Lots of folks
had already purchased this product . . . it seemed a bit obtuse to say
"you bought a piece of junk . . . here buy my gizmo instead."
Further, one would be hard pressed to say that the PowerPuck did not perform as
advertised . . . no place in the ads did I find a suggestion that they were recommended
or declared suitable for use in aircraft.
We've sold several dozen of both the fully assembled power supplies and the -99
add-on filter for individuals who already had BuckPucks in hand.
Everyone who reported noise problems before adding the AEC filter reported a satisfactory
reduction in noise afterward. I've got a DO-160 emissions test coming
up in the lab for another customer in the next few weeks . . . I try to piggy-back
the AEC product onto the testing effort and put real numbers to the observed
successes. If anyone discovers that the products offered by AEC do not
perform as advertised, it's my sincere expectation that they'll be returned for
a refund . . . no such events have taken place at the time of this writing.
For those interested in a DIY version of our efforts, I'll suggest you download
https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/AEC/9051/9051-700A.pdf and get the
component values off of page 4.
Bob . . . [/b]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242882#242882
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L Nuckolls III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Reducing RF noise for a Luxeon PowerPuck |
>
>
> I'm making some LED navigation lights. Being part Irish and stubborn I
> decided to try the Luxeon PowerPuck
> (http://www.luxeonstar.com/powerpuck-700ma-dc-led-driver-with-leads-p-27.php
> ) even though I also had Robert Nuckolls' filtered Buck Puck. Sure enough
> the PowerPuck produces RF noise, measured by a hand-held Icom receiver.
> Squelch has to be turned nearly all the way up to silence the receiver.
Are you saying that the AEC version of a filtered BuckPuck still emitted
detectable
noise? If you're using a hand-held with a rubber-duck antenna as a
sniffer, then
understand that many devices . . . even DO-160 qualified devices may
demonstrate
detectable emissions at close range.
Remember that DO-160 says "reduce deleterious effects to some level
demonstrated to be adequate to the task." The acid
test is can you detect the BuckPuck's emissions from any of your
ship's systems. Using a hand-held as a sniffer is a useful diagnostic
tool but it's non-quantified and may have no practical relationship
to suitability of a completed installation.
>
> Now the PowerPuck data sheet
> (http://www.leddynamics.com/LuxDrive/datasheets/2008B-PowerPuck.pdf) has a
> specific fix for RF noise, a 220uf cap between the input leads (page 4).
> I
> got the appropriate cap from Radio Shack and simply stuck it between the
> input leads without shortening the cap's wires or soldering it. No
> difference in RF noise.
The electrolytic capacitor has no practical benefits at our particular
frequnecy of interest (VHF nav and comm). The components described
in the AEC9051 installation instructions are chosen for their efficacy
at VHF.
>
> At this point I can think of these options:
> 1. Replace the Luxeon PowerPuck with the filtered Buck Puck.
May not be necessary . . . does the un-filtered device cause you
problems in the cockpit?
> 2. Replace the Luxeon PowerPuck with a resistor of appropriate wattage and
> resistance.
The BuckPuck is more than a "resistor". It's a constant cujrrent power
supply
that maintaines lamp performance over a wide range of power input
conditions.
> 3. Do nothing, maybe the RF noise isn't that bad.
Yes . . . see (1) above.
> 4. Or, being part Irish and stubborn, try to filter the RF noise of the
> Luxeon PowerPuck.
If noise IS an flight-ops problem, then it's not hard to whip it but
will take some time (education is almost never inexpensivfe).
>
> I'd like to try 4. a little more. What more can I do to filter the noise.
> Would the caps and coils used to filter the Buck Puck work for the Luxeon?
> Maybe use telephone wire (unshielded twisted pair)?
Wire treatments are NOT tools for the mitigation of radiated
or conducted noise. Shielding, twisting, routing, etc are
generally ineffectual things you do AFTER the horse is out of
the barn! FILTERS are the firewall for noise ingress/egress to
any proudct.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph Finch" <rgf(at)dcn.davis.ca.us> |
| Subject: | Reducing RF noise for a Luxeon PowerPuck |
I have bought, but not tested, the Buck Puck, either as-is or filtered.
What I was "testing" with the hand-held was the Luxeon PowerPuck,
unfiltered. Certainly far from scientific, but the only method I have. The
two other devices I was concerned about--power supplies for an HID landing
light and a strobe--produced detectable, but far less, noise on the
handheld.
All of this is just with a single wing. No fuselage, it's miles away stored
in a hangar.
Bob and others, thanks for your very interesting replies. At this time I'm
going to "test" Bob's filtered Buck Puck with my handheld. Assuming that it
produces little static, I can then use that or just a resistor in series. I
may go the latter, reserving the more expensive filtered Buck Puck for the
cockpit driving white and red LEDs where I will take advantage of the Buck
Puck's 5v reference signal to make a variable strength light source.
Ralph Finch
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L
Nuckolls III
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Reducing RF noise for a Luxeon PowerPuck
>
>
> I'm making some LED navigation lights. Being part Irish and stubborn I
> decided to try the Luxeon PowerPuck
>
(http://www.luxeonstar.com/powerpuck-700ma-dc-led-driver-with-leads-p-27.php
> ) even though I also had Robert Nuckolls' filtered Buck Puck. Sure enough
> the PowerPuck produces RF noise, measured by a hand-held Icom receiver.
> Squelch has to be turned nearly all the way up to silence the receiver.
Are you saying that the AEC version of a filtered BuckPuck still emitted
detectable
noise? If you're using a hand-held with a rubber-duck antenna as a
sniffer, then
understand that many devices . . . even DO-160 qualified devices may
demonstrate
detectable emissions at close range.
Remember that DO-160 says "reduce deleterious effects to some level
demonstrated to be adequate to the task." The acid
test is can you detect the BuckPuck's emissions from any of your
ship's systems. Using a hand-held as a sniffer is a useful diagnostic
tool but it's non-quantified and may have no practical relationship
to suitability of a completed installation.
>
> Now the PowerPuck data sheet
> (http://www.leddynamics.com/LuxDrive/datasheets/2008B-PowerPuck.pdf) has a
> specific fix for RF noise, a 220uf cap between the input leads (page 4).
> I
> got the appropriate cap from Radio Shack and simply stuck it between the
> input leads without shortening the cap's wires or soldering it. No
> difference in RF noise.
The electrolytic capacitor has no practical benefits at our particular
frequnecy of interest (VHF nav and comm). The components described
in the AEC9051 installation instructions are chosen for their efficacy
at VHF.
>
> At this point I can think of these options:
> 1. Replace the Luxeon PowerPuck with the filtered Buck Puck.
May not be necessary . . . does the un-filtered device cause you
problems in the cockpit?
> 2. Replace the Luxeon PowerPuck with a resistor of appropriate wattage and
> resistance.
The BuckPuck is more than a "resistor". It's a constant cujrrent power
supply
that maintaines lamp performance over a wide range of power input
conditions.
> 3. Do nothing, maybe the RF noise isn't that bad.
Yes . . . see (1) above.
> 4. Or, being part Irish and stubborn, try to filter the RF noise of the
> Luxeon PowerPuck.
If noise IS an flight-ops problem, then it's not hard to whip it but
will take some time (education is almost never inexpensivfe).
>
> I'd like to try 4. a little more. What more can I do to filter the noise.
> Would the caps and coils used to filter the Buck Puck work for the Luxeon?
> Maybe use telephone wire (unshielded twisted pair)?
Wire treatments are NOT tools for the mitigation of radiated
or conducted noise. Shielding, twisting, routing, etc are
generally ineffectual things you do AFTER the horse is out of
the barn! FILTERS are the firewall for noise ingress/egress to
any proudct.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Radio Noise Problems - Rotax 914 with Dual Bolt-on |
Alt.
| From: | "darinh" <gerns25(at)netscape.net> |
I am having a problem I hope someone can help me with. I am not an electronics
guy by any means but I did wire my panel and everything has worked well up to
this point. Here is a description of the system and the problem:
System:
The engine is Rotax 914 UL and has 40 hours on it since new along with all components.
I have a 40 amp alternator (Nippondenso modified by Flightcrafters I
will refer to as the ND Alt.) mounted to the back of the gearbox where you would
typically mount a vacuum pump. The gear ratio is .43:1 so the alternator does
not really come alive until about 3200 engine rpm or so and then will not
produce quite its rated capacity due to the gearing. I have set the engine up
as a dual alternator system for redundancy so the backup is the Rotax (onboard)
generator. Both the ND alternator and the Rotax generator are wired to a relay
and a 3 position switch for selection of Main Alt (ND Alt.) - Battery - and
Aux. Alt. (Rotax Generator). I have the large capacitor installed on the Rotax
generator lead and was under the impression that the ND alternator does not
need the capacitor as it is rectified and regulated internally. Again, everything
has worked great up until now.
Problem:
Now the problem. At about 38 hours total time my "idiot light" lit up while cruising
at 5000 rpm and 31" MAP. The EIS indicated that my oil pressure was too
low - 18 psi (55 - 65 psi is normal). Litterally in the course of a couple
seconds, the indication went from 18 psi to 75 psi and continued to fluctuate
rapidly between the mid teens to mid 90's. I new at this point that is was a
faulty indication and not actual loss of oil pressure. Upon landing my suspicions
were confirmed as all oil lines were tight and I had lost no oil. A quick
check of the system indicated that oil was still circulating. The OP sender
was suspect and was replaced and moved from the engine to the firewall to minimize
vibration and heat fatigue. The next flight showed OP as normal. All good
right? Wrong. The next flight the oil temp sensor started fluctuating rapidly
also...210 degrees to over 300 then back to 210 within a second or two.
I really didn't think that the temp sensor was going bad but really didn't have
any other idea of what it could be. As I was sitting there idling, I switched
from the ND alt. to the battery position and the temps immediately stabilized.
Next I switched to the Rotax onboard generator and everything stayed normal....then
went back to the ND Alt. and the problems came back. With this, I
pinned the problem on something to do with the ND alternator.
On the ground I did some run up tests and found that when the ND alternator is
providing power my oil temps are either abnormally high or abnormally low depending
on rpm setting (high rpm = high temp. low rpm = lower temp). Again, with
the Rotax onboard generator providing power, all is normal. Then, during one
of my runups, my indicated system voltage plummeted while running on the ND
alt. I switched back to the Rotax generator and voltage came right back to 13.8
so I knew I had some type of alternator failure. I removed the ND alt. and
found that one of the copper output leads from the coil was completely broken.
At this point I thought I had found my problem as obviously a broken lead would
cause weird voltage issues and possibly mess with my engine sensors. The
alternator was repaired by a reputable shop but because it has a spline gear he
could not turn it up to check the rectifier/regulator.
I installed it and am still having the problems with oil temps fluctuating wildly
and to add to it, I have a ton of noise in my radio when at cruise power settings.
During a test flight today, the tower told me my transmissions were broken
and unreadable with a high pitched wine. Isn't this classic alternator
interference? By the way, I have traced all grounds on the senors (most ground
through the engine) and this has checked out. So I don't think it is a grounding
issue. Everything worked fine before this and I haven't changed anything
with the electronics with the exception what is mentioned here with the sensors.
Sorry this is so long winded but I wanted everyone to have a complete picture of
the issues.
Now the questions:
Could or will broken output leads cause the voltage regulator on the ND alternator
to fail? If so, how can I check if it is toast?
>From my description above does anyone have any advice or comments that might help?
I am getting pretty frustrated so any help would be greatly appreciated!
--------
Darin Hawkes
Series 7
914 Turbo
Kaysville, Utah
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242934#242934
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: G3i Ignition |
| From: | "sc_acro2" <mail(at)g3ignition.com> |
Hello Guys,
If youre at the 2009 AirVenture this year, I personally invite you to stop by our
booth #1148 and take a look at our products and answer any of your question/doubts.
There will be hands on running interactive G3i/magneto display. Showing
and comparing the different start up and run modes along with redundancy. As
far easy start-up, fuel economy and smoothness, give Larry Vetterman a call
@ Vettermans Exhaust Inc. Larry happily runs one of our systems.
Sincerely,
Thomas S.
www.g3ignition.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242971#242971
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cori Hayth <kevann(at)gotsky.com> |
| Subject: | Radio Noise Problems - Rotax 914 with Dual Bolt-on |
Alt.
Hi Darin,
I have the same setup on my 914 Europa
Do you have a good ground strap (fat wire) from the engine block to the
battery?
Kevin
On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 8:32 AM , darinh wrote:
>
>
> I am having a problem I hope someone can help me with. I am not an
> electronics guy by any means but I did wire my panel and everything
> has worked well up to this point. Here is a description of the system
> and the problem:
> System:
> The engine is Rotax 914 UL and has 40 hours on it since new along with
> all components. I have a 40 amp alternator (Nippondenso modified by
> Flightcrafters I will refer to as the ND Alt.) mounted to the back of
> the gearbox where you would typically mount a vacuum pump. The gear
> ratio is .43:1 so the alternator does not really come alive until
> about 3200 engine rpm or so and then will not produce quite its rated
> capacity due to the gearing. I have set the engine up as a dual
> alternator system for redundancy so the backup is the Rotax (onboard)
> generator. Both the ND alternator and the Rotax generator are wired
> to a relay and a 3 position switch for selection of Main Alt (ND Alt.)
> - Battery - and Aux. Alt. (Rotax Generator). I have the large
> capacitor installed on the Rotax generator lead and was under the
> impression that the ND alternator does not need the capacitor as it is
> rectified and regulated internally. Again, everything has worked
> great up until now.
>
> Problem:
> Now the problem. At about 38 hours total time my "idiot light" lit up
> while cruising at 5000 rpm and 31" MAP. The EIS indicated that my oil
> pressure was too low - 18 psi (55 - 65 psi is normal). Litterally in
> the course of a couple seconds, the indication went from 18 psi to 75
> psi and continued to fluctuate rapidly between the mid teens to mid
> 90's. I new at this point that is was a faulty indication and not
> actual loss of oil pressure. Upon landing my suspicions were
> confirmed as all oil lines were tight and I had lost no oil. A quick
> check of the system indicated that oil was still circulating. The OP
> sender was suspect and was replaced and moved from the engine to the
> firewall to minimize vibration and heat fatigue. The next flight
> showed OP as normal. All good right? Wrong. The next flight the oil
> temp sensor started fluctuating rapidly also...210 degrees to over 300
> then back to 210 within a second or two. I really didn't think that
> the temp sensor was going!
> bad but really didn't have any other idea of what it could be. As I
> was sitting there idling, I switched from the ND alt. to the battery
> position and the temps immediately stabilized. Next I switched to the
> Rotax onboard generator and everything stayed normal....then went back
> to the ND Alt. and the problems came back. With this, I pinned the
> problem on something to do with the ND alternator.
>
> On the ground I did some run up tests and found that when the ND
> alternator is providing power my oil temps are either abnormally high
> or abnormally low depending on rpm setting (high rpm = high temp. low
> rpm = lower temp). Again, with the Rotax onboard generator providing
> power, all is normal. Then, during one of my runups, my indicated
> system voltage plummeted while running on the ND alt. I switched back
> to the Rotax generator and voltage came right back to 13.8 so I knew I
> had some type of alternator failure. I removed the ND alt. and found
> that one of the copper output leads from the coil was completely
> broken. At this point I thought I had found my problem as obviously a
> broken lead would cause weird voltage issues and possibly mess with my
> engine sensors. The alternator was repaired by a reputable shop but
> because it has a spline gear he could not turn it up to check the
> rectifier/regulator.
> I installed it and am still having the problems with oil temps
> fluctuating wildly and to add to it, I have a ton of noise in my radio
> when at cruise power settings. During a test flight today, the tower
> told me my transmissions were broken and unreadable with a high
> pitched wine. Isn't this classic alternator interference? By the
> way, I have traced all grounds on the senors (most ground through the
> engine) and this has checked out. So I don't think it is a grounding
> issue. Everything worked fine before this and I haven't changed
> anything with the electronics with the exception what is mentioned
> here with the sensors.
>
> Sorry this is so long winded but I wanted everyone to have a complete
> picture of the issues.
> Now the questions:
> Could or will broken output leads cause the voltage regulator on the
> ND alternator to fail? If so, how can I check if it is toast?
>> From my description above does anyone have any advice or comments
>> that might help?
>
> I am getting pretty frustrated so any help would be greatly
> appreciated!
>
> --------
> Darin Hawkes
> Series 7 914 Turbo
> Kaysville, Utah
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242934#242934
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Radio Noise Problems - Rotax 914 with Dual Bolt-on |
Alt.
| From: | "darinh" <gerns25(at)netscape.net> |
Kevin,
Yes I do. Keep in mind this all worked great until the leads on the alternator
failed on me. The only thing I can think that has happened is when the leads
failed it somehow damaged the built-in regulator. Problem is, I know next to
nothing about alternators and regulators so I don't know how to check if it is
good or not.
--------
Darin Hawkes
Series 7
914 Turbo
Kaysville, Utah
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242993#242993
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Baleshta" <dbaleshta(at)tru.ca> |
Does anyone have the pinouts for the edge connector on a KY 196? Looking to try
and wire it up.
Thanks
Doug
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Talbot <richard(at)talbots.net.au> |
| Subject: | Voltage Runaway on Plane Power Alternator |
G'day Everyone,
I have a strange fault that has developed on my RV7, with Plane Power Inter
nally regulated alternator. I bought is as it has crowbar voltage protecti
on built in. The aircraft has 20 hours on it and up till recently the alte
rnator worked fine.
The last two flights I have received Over Voltage alerts on takeoff from my
EFIS and the 5A breaker has popped - so I guess the crowbar works as adver
tised and my avionics is all OK. Resetting the breaker works fine once at
pattern altitude and the prop is back to 2500 RPM or so. The unit then per
forms flawlessly for the rest of the flight. I have not tried applying tak
eoff power at altitude, so I cannot be certain it is the high RPM causing i
t.
I called the guys at Plane Power and they suggested checking the field line
and breaker which I will do tomorrow. However, this is a pretty strange f
ailure mode and I was wondering if anyone else on the list had any ideas.
I don't really want to risk cooking my radios etc. There really is not muc
h that can go wrong with the unit's wiring as it only has two wires connect
ed to it.
Thanks/Regards
Richard
Sydney, Australia
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: KY 196 pinouts |
At 11:15 PM 5/7/2009, you wrote:
>
>Does anyone have the pinouts for the edge connector on a KY
>196? Looking to try and wire it up.
>
>Thanks
>Doug
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/KY196_197_Series.pdf
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Voltage Runaway on Plane Power Alternator |
At 08:35 AM 5/8/2009, you wrote:
>G'day Everyone,
>
>I have a strange fault that has developed on my RV7, with Plane
>Power Internally regulated alternator. I bought is as it has
>crowbar voltage protection built in. The aircraft has 20 hours on
>it and up till recently the alternator worked fine.
>
>The last two flights I have received Over Voltage alerts on takeoff
>from my EFIS and the 5A breaker has popped - so I guess the crowbar
>works as advertised and my avionics is all OK. Resetting the
>breaker works fine once at pattern altitude and the prop is back to
>2500 RPM or so. The unit then performs flawlessly for the rest of
>the flight. I have not tried applying takeoff power at altitude, so
>I cannot be certain it is the high RPM causing it.
>
>I called the guys at Plane Power and they suggested checking the
>field line and breaker which I will do tomorrow. However, this is a
>pretty strange failure mode and I was wondering if anyone else on
>the list had any ideas. I don't really want to risk cooking my
>radios etc. There really is not much that can go wrong with the
>unit's wiring as it only has two wires connected to it.
There is only one reason for an alternator to produce
TOO MUCH voltage . . . serious fault in the regulator's
ability to sense bus voltage -OR- some failure within
the regulator's itty-bitty innards.
It's unusual for an electronic failure on an integrated
circuit to be intermittent/transient as you've described.
But as you've observed, the ov protection system is ringing
loud bells to let you know that the system needs some
attention to details. It's unfortunate that you're so
remote to the Plain Power facilities. If I were Plane
Power, I'd want to get the unit back for inspection.
I think it unlikely that "loose wiring" in the airplane
would cause this, more likely that the problem is internal
to the alternator. Work closely with Plane Power. They
know more about their product than anybody else.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Radio Noise Problems - Rotax 914 Alternator Problems |
| From: | "user9253" <fran5sew(at)banyanol.com> |
Darin,
It sounds like the rectifier/regulator is at fault. Depending on the cost, the
easy way to trouble shoot is to replace it and see if that fixes the problem.
If you know someone with an oscilloscope, looking at the waveform will tell
if the rectifier/regulator is doing its job. A diode or its connections could
be open. Instead of outputting steady DC, the output could be pulsing DC. Lacking
an oscilloscope, measure the output with a voltmeter set to AC. Compare
the voltage readings of each alternator with the meter set to DC and also set
to AC. Let us know what you find.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243138#243138
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
| Subject: | Voltage Runaway on Plane Power Alternator |
Yes should be easy to check that you have the right field connections (make sure
you cheeck of good crimps or soldered joints between the wires and the terminals
connected to the alt..More than once I have pulled a wire clean out of a
ring terminal bolted to the B post.
Make sure you have a good ground between the engine and -ve terminal to the battery...I
assume your using the Plane power Cad plated brackets?...Because if you
using painted brackets this can interrupt the ground between the alt case and
the engine block..Ask me how I know...:)
But I agree with Bob, if you can't find a wiring fault I'd send it back to plane
power.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 7:15 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Voltage Runaway on Plane Power Alternator
-->
At 08:35 AM 5/8/2009, you wrote:
>G'day Everyone,
>
>I have a strange fault that has developed on my RV7, with Plane Power
>Internally regulated alternator. I bought is as it has crowbar voltage
>protection built in. The aircraft has 20 hours on it and up till
>recently the alternator worked fine.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LR3 regulator Amperage indications |
Bob,
The heavy B lead comes off the B&C alternator, and passes through a sensor
supplied by Blue Mountain avionics, which I believe is a Hall effect
transducer, and then goes to the Batteries. The Voltage is measured at the
Main buss.
I am enclosing the output from the last flight showing the variations.
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser #4045
N343BS
Phase I testing
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>
> Where are you measuring current and voltage? The LR series
> regulators are linear devices i.e. smoothly variable DC output
> voltage. But without knowing exactly where you are sampling
> voltage and current, I'm unable to deduce the significance
> of your observations.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------)
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Radio Noise Problems - Rotax 914 Alternator Problems |
| From: | "darinh" <gerns25(at)netscape.net> |
Joe,
Thanks for the reply. I don't have access to an oscilloscope but can measure voltage
using a meter on AC. What in particular would I be looking for when comparing
the AC vs. DC? I would expect to see around 14.0vdc but what am I looking
for with AC? Maybe a dumb question but I am dumb when it comes to this stuff.
--------
Darin Hawkes
Series 7
914 Turbo
Kaysville, Utah
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243151#243151
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson(at)pobox.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Radio Noise Problems - Rotax 914 Alternator |
Problems
Hi Darin,
While an o-scope would be preferable, many years ago I was told that I could use
a Volt-Ohm-Meter to do a quick check of a diode bridge for a running alternator
by measuring the AC voltage. I've never had the opportunity (knock on wood) to
verify this, however.
I think our basic alternator is essentially a 3 phase alternator. So if a diode
fails, I'd think the number would be in neighborhood of 12V/3phase = 4 VAC/phase
(there may be a small multiplier in there somewhere) rather in the sub 1 VAC
(ripple voltage).
I'm sure the Bob will chime in here somewhere and either validate or correct.
Either way, I'd like to update my notes.
Regards,
/\/elson
~~ Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any spring. ~~
On Fri, 8 May 2009, darinh wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> Thanks for the reply. I don't have access to an oscilloscope but can measure
> voltage using a meter on AC. What in particular would I be looking for when
> comparing the AC vs. DC? I would expect to see around 14.0vdc but what am I
> looking for with AC? Maybe a dumb question but I am dumb when it comes to
> this stuff.
>
> --------
> Darin Hawkes
> Series 7
> 914 Turbo
> Kaysville, Utah
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243151#243151
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LR3 regulator Amperage indications |
At 10:33 AM 5/8/2009, you wrote:
>Bob,
>The heavy B lead comes off the B&C alternator, and passes through a
>sensor supplied by Blue Mountain avionics, which I believe is a Hall
>effect transducer, and then goes to the Batteries. The Voltage is
>measured at the Main buss.
>
>I am enclosing the output from the last flight showing the variations.
Those traces are almost certainly plagued with data sampling
artifacts polluted by noise. There's no way that the "real"
numbers are that trashy. Have you explored the R/C filtering
I suggested? How many bits of resolution does the data
acquisition system offer?
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Radio Noise Problems - Rotax 914 Alternator |
Problems
At 01:55 PM 5/8/2009, you wrote:
>
>
>
>Hi Darin,
>
>While an o-scope would be preferable, many years ago I was told that
>I could use a Volt-Ohm-Meter to do a quick check of a diode bridge
>for a running alternator by measuring the AC voltage. I've never
>had the opportunity (knock on wood) to verify this, however.
>
>I think our basic alternator is essentially a 3 phase
>alternator. So if a diode fails, I'd think the number would be in
>neighborhood of 12V/3phase = 4 VAC/phase (there may be a small
>multiplier in there somewhere) rather in the sub 1 VAC (ripple voltage).
>
>I'm sure the Bob will chime in here somewhere and either validate or
>correct. Either way, I'd like to update my notes.
The rectified DC output from a 3-phase alternator
carries about 5% pk-pk ripple. In a 14v system
this is about 0.7 volts. Problem is that there's
a lot of diode switching noise that can be higher.
Depending on the design of the voltmeter, the AC
readings can be all over the place.
At Electro-Mech about 25 years ago, I looked at
offering an accessory to the aircraft industry
based on ac ripple monitoring. There were a number
of ideas/products in the wild that purported
to do the same thing. One example:
http://tinyurl.com/oummzc
What I discovered was that the "smarts" necessary
to accurately detect diode failure under all
operating conditions and all variations on a theme
for alternators in the field made for a pretty
expensive device . . . that didn't really do much
more than a low-voltage warning light. The claims
offered in the patent cited above cannot be supported
in broad practice.
Having said that, if you have a BENCHMARK ac ripple
voltage measurement with a specific instrument,
you can use that combination to tell that something
has drastically changed . . .
The last time I looked at a Rotax 912, it was still
a single phase machine . . . MUCH higher ripple
voltage that is drastically altered how hard the
rectifier/regulator is taxing the alternator. AC
rippled measurements at the DC side might be
a useful diagnostic tool IF you had benchmark
measurements to compare with . . . but unless you
know what the GOOD measurements look like, it's
not likely that you can identify a BAD measurement.
I gave up the AC ripple monitor in favor of the
rudimentary LV warning light. We sold several versions
to about a half dozen airframe OEM.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Radio Noise Problems - Rotax 914 Alternator Problems |
| From: | "user9253" <fran5sew(at)banyanol.com> |
> What in particular would I be looking for when comparing the AC vs. DC?
Darin,
I probably gave you bad advice to check the AC output of the alternator because
many meters will not give an accurate reading. I used a Fluke 76 meter (which
I trust) and measured 0.015 volts AC at the battery on my Ford Expedition with
the engine running. However, when I used a couple of other meters, they read
anywhere between 12 and 30 volts. Bob Nuckolls book tells how to test an alternator
while bypassing the regulator. Other than replacing the rectifier/regulator,
the only thing that I can suggest is to test the diodes with an ohmmeter,
if they are accessible. Double check all wires and connections. The majority
of electrical problems are caused by bad connections.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243194#243194
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Tunnel grounding |
| From: | "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com> |
Thanks Bill,
I appreciate your suggestions, but I am still hoping that Bob also chimes in before
I finish out the tunnel.
Best,
--------
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243208#243208
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kevin Carey" <kcarey(at)alum.mit.edu> |
| Subject: | Arinc 429 source to 429 receivers |
I need to connect one Arinc 429 source (GPS) to two receivers (MFD and TWX
670). The straight forward method would be to use butt splices with the
source on one side and both of the receivers on the other. Is there a
"best practice" technique for accomplishing this?
Kevin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Tunnel grounding |
At 08:05 PM 5/8/2009, you wrote:
>
>Thanks Bill,
>
>I appreciate your suggestions, but I am still hoping that Bob also
>chimes in before I finish out the tunnel.
I thought I had responded to this but I don't
find the response on my computer here at home.
Perhaps I crafted something on a trip machine
and never got it sent. Anywho . . .
I am building an RV-10 and have settled for now on the one battery
two alternator scheme, and am planning to run a #2 ground wire from
the (rear) batt to a forest of grounds at the firewall.
Not really necessary in an all metal airplane but
works good . . .
My specific question for today has to do with grounding items in the
center tunnel, specifically, the fuel totalizer, fuel pump, flap
actuator, flap position selector, and a flap position sensor
(wouldn't it be great if those two could be combined into one geewhiz?)
At any rate, the question that I have on grounding those items is should I:
1. Ground each locally?
2. Run a separate ground for each to the front forest?
3. Run each to a mini forest in the tunnel that has its own ground
wire to either the front ground forest or back to the battery?
None of these are especially vulnerable to
ground loop noises so local grounds will probably
be fine. The super clean approach is separate
ground wires for each device to the forest
of tabs on the firewall.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Arinc 429 source to 429 receivers |
At 10:34 PM 5/8/2009, you wrote:
>
>I need to connect one Arinc 429 source (GPS) to two receivers (MFD
>and TWX 670). The straight forward method would be to use butt
>splices with the source on one side and both of the receivers on
>the other. Is there a "best practice" technique for accomplishing this?
If you were running these lines for dozens of feet around
a big flying pig with dual 600A generators and a 5 hp
air conditioner motor, you might have some concerns for
process. In a small single engine aircraft, any neat
thing you want to do will work. Robustness of the
connections is the key. Solder would be good too.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Martin & Chris <aerobiz(at)optusnet.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 05/08/09 |
Hi guys,
We are getting an engine miss in a Rotax 912-powered a/c. It is fine
until about 20 minutes into the flight, then you can detect the miss.
Strange given that it has dual ignition,. We tried fiddling with the
carb and leaning the mixture off seemed to solve the problem for a few
hours, but it back worse than ever. The ignition parts are quite
expensive so would like to isolate the problem before replacing
everything.
So what I am looking at is advice on testing the ignition coils. How you
should go about it and what equipment is needed. If they check out,
then the modules will be next, but one thing at a time.
Any advice appreciated.
Martin
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "cskelt(at)earthlink.net" <cskelt(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: What can GPS and XM antennas see through? |
Folks,
This is to thank all of you who replied to the list and to me personally.
The consensus on the Internet is that GPS signals run around 1.5 GHz and XM Weather
at about 2.3 GHz with corresponding wavelengths of about 20 cm and 13 cm
respectively. This is more than an order of magnitude higher than the frequencies
we use for COM and NAV, and so, all other things being equal, we shouldn't
expect them to penetrate so much of the same solid material -- which was my
original concern, particularly as I have no data on the relative transmissivity
of perspex (that we understand is OK) and fiberglass (that's probably OK, but
I don't know). Even if I can get a good GPS or XM reading while stationary
in the driveway, that doesn't necessarily translate into good navigation at cruise
speed, and that is why positive and negative experiences from a large user
community are worth much more than guidelines from the installation manual.
It seems there are many good functional ways of doing the installation, and some
useful considerations to take into account. Thank
s again.
Regards, Chris.
__________________
cskelt(at)earthlink.net
Chris Skelt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Thomas <lists(at)stevet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: What can GPS and XM antennas see through? |
Chris,
I am not flying yet, and my experience is anecdotal so take this for
what it's worth. I am building a Glasair Super II RG, all fiberglass
fuselage. The construction is glass over foam sandwich. I have my XM
and GPS antennae on a shelf at the inside-top of the aft fuselage and
the airplane is inside my garage. When I fire up my panel, I can
successfully pick up both the XM and GPS signal. It does take a while
to lock on, and the signal is weak, but it is there. So, both signals
are able to penetrate the garage roof, the ceiling, and the fiberglass
body. Now I suppose I cannot tell how much is coming through the
windows and open garage door, but that is my experience.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________
On May 9, 2009, at 5:44 AM, cskelt(at)earthlink.net wrote:
>
> Folks,
> This is to thank all of you who replied to the list and to me
> personally.
>
> The consensus on the Internet is that GPS signals run around 1.5 GHz
> and XM Weather at about 2.3 GHz with corresponding wavelengths of
> about 20 cm and 13 cm respectively. This is more than an order of
> magnitude higher than the frequencies we use for COM and NAV, and
> so, all other things being equal, we shouldn't expect them to
> penetrate so much of the same solid material -- which was my
> original concern, particularly as I have no data on the relative
> transmissivity of perspex (that we understand is OK) and fiberglass
> (that's probably OK, but I don't know). Even if I can get a good
> GPS or XM reading while stationary in the driveway, that doesn't
> necessarily translate into good navigation at cruise speed, and that
> is why positive and negative experiences from a large user community
> are worth much more than guidelines from the installation manual.
> It seems there are many good functional ways of doing the
> installation, and some useful considerations to take into account.
> Thanks again.
>
> Regards, Chris.
>
>
> __________________
> cskelt(at)earthlink.net
> Chris Skelt
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David LLoyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 05/08/09 |
Any chance you have a misplaced gas line that is vapor locking after the
heat gets to it.....!!
After "....20 min's", it is usually a heat related problem.
D
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin & Chris" <aerobiz(at)optusnet.com.au>
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 12:37 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 05/08/09
>
>
> Hi guys,
>
> We are getting an engine miss in a Rotax 912-powered a/c. It is fine until
> about 20 minutes into the flight, then you can detect the miss. Strange
> given that it has dual ignition,. We tried fiddling with the carb and
> leaning the mixture off seemed to solve the problem for a few hours, but
> it back worse than ever. The ignition parts are quite expensive so would
> like to isolate the problem before replacing everything.
> So what I am looking at is advice on testing the ignition coils. How you
> should go about it and what equipment is needed. If they check out, then
> the modules will be next, but one thing at a time.
>
> Any advice appreciated.
>
> Martin
>
>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Cori Hayth <kevann(at)gotsky.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 05/08/09 |
Suspect carburation first, ignition is less likely.
With the engine warmed up try pulling the choke on. This will enrichen
the mixture, so if it runs better the carbs are probably set too lean.
Check the small diameter hoses to both carbs for cracks.
How long has it been since the carbs were serviced, the diaphrams,
o-rings and such replaced?
Kevin
On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 11:37 PM , Martin & Chris wrote:
>
>
> Hi guys,
>
> We are getting an engine miss in a Rotax 912-powered a/c. It is fine
> until about 20 minutes into the flight, then you can detect the miss.
> Strange given that it has dual ignition,. We tried fiddling with the
> carb and leaning the mixture off seemed to solve the problem for a few
> hours, but it back worse than ever. The ignition parts are quite
> expensive so would like to isolate the problem before replacing
> everything. So what I am looking at is advice on testing the ignition
> coils. How you should go about it and what equipment is needed. If
> they check out, then the modules will be next, but one thing at a
> time.
>
> Any advice appreciated.
>
> Martin
>
>
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Tunnel grounding |
| From: | "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com> |
Thanks Bob.
I like super clean.
--------
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243312#243312
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ground Power |
| From: | "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com> |
I am bumping this after a search.
I am in the process of putting together a ground power receptacle for my RV10.
I have ordered a piper receptacle from A. Spruce, and the crowbar and contactor
from BandC.
My primary goals are:
1. To be able to come up to a dead airplane, start it from ground power, and go
fly.
2. To be able to charge a dead or weak battery without having to remove access
panels.
3. to be able to provide power during construction/testing with a cheapo spare
battery. I don't want to buy my ship's battery until the day before my first
start.
I don't necessarily need to be able to switch the ground power on or off. I'm
okay with the act of putting the plug in as switching it on. However, I would
like the circuit to die once I pulled the plug out if that makes sense.
Does the Aero'lectric diagram meet my needs or do I need changes?
Anyone have pictures of an installation, preferably in an RV10?
--------
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243327#243327
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ground Power |
At 05:42 PM 5/9/2009 Saturday, you wrote:
>
>I am bumping this after a search.
>
>I am in the process of putting together a ground power receptacle for my RV10.
>
>I have ordered a piper receptacle from A. Spruce, and the crowbar and contactor
from BandC.
>
>My primary goals are:
>
>1. To be able to come up to a dead airplane, start it from ground power, and
go fly.
>
>2. To be able to charge a dead or weak battery without having to remove access
panels.
>
>3. to be able to provide power during construction/testing with a cheapo spare
battery. I don't want to buy my ship's battery until the day before my first
start.
>
>I don't necessarily need to be able to switch the ground power on or off. I'm
okay with the act of putting the plug in as switching it on. However, I would
like the circuit to die once I pulled the plug out if that makes sense.
>
>Does the Aero'lectric diagram meet my needs or do I need changes?
>
>Anyone have pictures of an installation, preferably in an RV10?
>
>--------
>Myron Nelson
>Mesa, AZ
>Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
Hi Myron,
Attached are some pictures of my GPU power installation in the RV-8. Works great
and allows me to charge the battery, run the avionics, or start the engine.
I also included the backbone wiring schematic. I'm using the Vertical Power
VP-200 electrical system, but the GPU wiring should be fairly common. The GPU
wiring is shown in the lower right hand side of the diagram. I haven't updated
the diagram yet, but you might need to add a connection between the Sense
input on the GPU plug through a Normally Open push button to the EBus (and through
a small fuse or polyfuse). What I found was that the late-model chargers
won't turn on their output unless they see about 4-5 volts. So, they won't pull
the GPU relay down when you plug the GPU plug in. The button allows you to
pull the relay in and make the charger think there is voltage. The only catch
is that your aircraft battery has to have enough juice to pull the relay down.
Let me know if you've have any questions.
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV
Laying Carpet Out in CAD...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Dudley" <rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ground Power |
Hi Myron,
I installed the ground power circuit per Bob Nucolls including the breaker
switch in my RV-6A. I used it pretty much as you describe except that I
never had occasion to start the engine using ground power. All through the
early testing and any time I wished to run electronics on the ground, I used
a battery charger conneccted to the ground power receptacle. I also did an
endurance test on the battery to determine how long it would maintain
avionics in the event of an alternator loss when the battery was one year
old. Then, I re-charged the battery via the receptacle. It was a great
convenience an did all the things I intended.
Regards,
Richard Dudley
----- Original Message -----
From: "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 8:42 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ground Power
>
> I am bumping this after a search.
>
> I am in the process of putting together a ground power receptacle for my
> RV10.
>
> I have ordered a piper receptacle from A. Spruce, and the crowbar and
> contactor from BandC.
>
> My primary goals are:
>
> 1. To be able to come up to a dead airplane, start it from ground power,
> and go fly.
>
> 2. To be able to charge a dead or weak battery without having to remove
> access panels.
>
> 3. to be able to provide power during construction/testing with a cheapo
> spare battery. I don't want to buy my ship's battery until the day before
> my first start.
>
> I don't necessarily need to be able to switch the ground power on or off.
> I'm okay with the act of putting the plug in as switching it on. However,
> I would like the circuit to die once I pulled the plug out if that makes
> sense.
>
> Does the Aero'lectric diagram meet my needs or do I need changes?
>
> Anyone have pictures of an installation, preferably in an RV10?
>
> --------
> Myron Nelson
> Mesa, AZ
> Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243327#243327
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Martin & Chris <aerobiz(at)optusnet.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 05/09/09 |
Thanks Dave and Kevin, I will try your suggestions first, but if
anyone can advise me on what is required to test the ignition coils it
would also be appreciated,
Martin
AeroElectric-List Digest Server wrote:
> *
>
> =================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =================================================
>
> Today's complete AeroElectric-List Digest can also be found in either of the
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> of the AeroElectric-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 09-05-09&Archive=AeroElectric
>
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>
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>
>
> ===============================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ===============================================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> AeroElectric-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Sat 05/09/09: 9
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 12:41 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 05/08/09 (Martin
& Chris)
> 2. 05:47 AM - Re: What can GPS and XM antennas see through? (cskelt(at)earthlink.net)
> 3. 07:06 AM - Re: Re: What can GPS and XM antennas see through? (Steve
Thomas)
> 4. 08:55 AM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 05/08/09 (David
LLoyd)
> 5. 12:54 PM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 05/08/09 (Cori
Hayth)
> 6. 03:29 PM - Re: Tunnel grounding (woxofswa)
> 7. 05:51 PM - Re: Ground Power (woxofswa)
> 8. 06:29 PM - Re: Re: Ground Power (Matt Dralle)
> 9. 07:18 PM - Re: Re: Ground Power (Richard Dudley)
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
>
>
> From: Martin & Chris <aerobiz(at)optusnet.com.au>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 05/08/09
>
>
> Hi guys,
>
> We are getting an engine miss in a Rotax 912-powered a/c. It is fine
> until about 20 minutes into the flight, then you can detect the miss.
> Strange given that it has dual ignition,. We tried fiddling with the
> carb and leaning the mixture off seemed to solve the problem for a few
> hours, but it back worse than ever. The ignition parts are quite
> expensive so would like to isolate the problem before replacing
> everything.
>
> So what I am looking at is advice on testing the ignition coils. How you
> should go about it and what equipment is needed. If they check out,
> then the modules will be next, but one thing at a time.
>
> Any advice appreciated.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>>
>>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
>
>
> From: "cskelt(at)earthlink.net" <cskelt(at)earthlink.net>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: What can GPS and XM antennas see through?
>
> Folks,
> This is to thank all of you who replied to the list and to me personally.
>
> The consensus on the Internet is that GPS signals run around 1.5 GHz and XM Weather
> at about 2.3 GHz with corresponding wavelengths of about 20 cm and 13 cm
> respectively. This is more than an order of magnitude higher than the frequencies
> we use for COM and NAV, and so, all other things being equal, we shouldn't
> expect them to penetrate so much of the same solid material -- which was my
> original concern, particularly as I have no data on the relative transmissivity
> of perspex (that we understand is OK) and fiberglass (that's probably OK, but
> I don't know). Even if I can get a good GPS or XM reading while stationary
> in the driveway, that doesn't necessarily translate into good navigation at cruise
> speed, and that is why positive and negative experiences from a large user
> community are worth much more than guidelines from the installation manual.
> It seems there are many good functional ways of doing the installation, and some
> useful considerations to take into account. Thank
> s again.
>
> Regards, Chris.
>
>
> __________________
> cskelt(at)earthlink.net
> Chris Skelt
>
> ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
>
>
> From: Steve Thomas <lists(at)stevet.net>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: What can GPS and XM antennas see through?
>
> Chris,
>
> I am not flying yet, and my experience is anecdotal so take this for
> what it's worth. I am building a Glasair Super II RG, all fiberglass
> fuselage. The construction is glass over foam sandwich. I have my XM
> and GPS antennae on a shelf at the inside-top of the aft fuselage and
> the airplane is inside my garage. When I fire up my panel, I can
> successfully pick up both the XM and GPS signal. It does take a while
> to lock on, and the signal is weak, but it is there. So, both signals
> are able to penetrate the garage roof, the ceiling, and the fiberglass
> body. Now I suppose I cannot tell how much is coming through the
> windows and open garage door, but that is my experience.
>
>
> Steve
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> On May 9, 2009, at 5:44 AM, cskelt(at)earthlink.net wrote:
>
>
>> Folks,
>> This is to thank all of you who replied to the list and to me
>> personally.
>>
>> The consensus on the Internet is that GPS signals run around 1.5 GHz
>> and XM Weather at about 2.3 GHz with corresponding wavelengths of
>> about 20 cm and 13 cm respectively. This is more than an order of
>> magnitude higher than the frequencies we use for COM and NAV, and
>> so, all other things being equal, we shouldn't expect them to
>> penetrate so much of the same solid material -- which was my
>> original concern, particularly as I have no data on the relative
>> transmissivity of perspex (that we understand is OK) and fiberglass
>> (that's probably OK, but I don't know). Even if I can get a good
>> GPS or XM reading while stationary in the driveway, that doesn't
>> necessarily translate into good navigation at cruise speed, and that
>> is why positive and negative experiences from a large user community
>> are worth much more than guidelines from the installation manual.
>> It seems there are many good functional ways of doing the
>> installation, and some useful considerations to take into account.
>> Thanks again.
>>
>> Regards, Chris.
>>
>>
>> __________________
>> cskelt(at)earthlink.net
>> Chris Skelt
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
>
>
> From: "David LLoyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 05/08/09
>
>
> Any chance you have a misplaced gas line that is vapor locking after the
> heat gets to it.....!!
> After "....20 min's", it is usually a heat related problem.
> D
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martin & Chris" <aerobiz(at)optusnet.com.au>
> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 12:37 AM
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 05/08/09
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> We are getting an engine miss in a Rotax 912-powered a/c. It is fine until
>> about 20 minutes into the flight, then you can detect the miss. Strange
>> given that it has dual ignition,. We tried fiddling with the carb and
>> leaning the mixture off seemed to solve the problem for a few hours, but
>> it back worse than ever. The ignition parts are quite expensive so would
>> like to isolate the problem before replacing everything.
>> So what I am looking at is advice on testing the ignition coils. How you
>> should go about it and what equipment is needed. If they check out, then
>> the modules will be next, but one thing at a time.
>>
>> Any advice appreciated.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
>
>
> From: Cori Hayth <kevann(at)gotsky.com>
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 05/08/09
>
>
> Suspect carburation first, ignition is less likely.
>
> With the engine warmed up try pulling the choke on. This will enrichen
> the mixture, so if it runs better the carbs are probably set too lean.
>
> Check the small diameter hoses to both carbs for cracks.
>
> How long has it been since the carbs were serviced, the diaphrams,
> o-rings and such replaced?
>
> Kevin
>
>
> On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 11:37 PM , Martin & Chris wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> We are getting an engine miss in a Rotax 912-powered a/c. It is fine
>> until about 20 minutes into the flight, then you can detect the miss.
>> Strange given that it has dual ignition,. We tried fiddling with the
>> carb and leaning the mixture off seemed to solve the problem for a few
>> hours, but it back worse than ever. The ignition parts are quite
>> expensive so would like to isolate the problem before replacing
>> everything. So what I am looking at is advice on testing the ignition
>> coils. How you should go about it and what equipment is needed. If
>> they check out, then the modules will be next, but one thing at a
>> time.
>>
>> Any advice appreciated.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________
>
>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Tunnel grounding
> From: "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com>
>
>
> Thanks Bob.
>
> I like super clean.
>
> --------
> Myron Nelson
> Mesa, AZ
> Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243312#243312
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________
>
>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ground Power
> From: "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com>
>
>
> I am bumping this after a search.
>
> I am in the process of putting together a ground power receptacle for my RV10.
>
> I have ordered a piper receptacle from A. Spruce, and the crowbar and contactor
> from BandC.
>
> My primary goals are:
>
> 1. To be able to come up to a dead airplane, start it from ground power, and
go
> fly.
>
> 2. To be able to charge a dead or weak battery without having to remove access
> panels.
>
> 3. to be able to provide power during construction/testing with a cheapo spare
> battery. I don't want to buy my ship's battery until the day before my first
> start.
>
> I don't necessarily need to be able to switch the ground power on or off. I'm
> okay with the act of putting the plug in as switching it on. However, I would
> like the circuit to die once I pulled the plug out if that makes sense.
>
> Does the Aero'lectric diagram meet my needs or do I need changes?
>
> Anyone have pictures of an installation, preferably in an RV10?
>
> --------
> Myron Nelson
> Mesa, AZ
> Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243327#243327
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________
>
>
> From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ground Power
>
> At 05:42 PM 5/9/2009 Saturday, you wrote:
>
>> I am bumping this after a search.
>>
>> I am in the process of putting together a ground power receptacle for my RV10.
>>
>> I have ordered a piper receptacle from A. Spruce, and the crowbar and contactor
>>
> from BandC.
>
>> My primary goals are:
>>
>> 1. To be able to come up to a dead airplane, start it from ground power, and
>>
> go fly.
>
>> 2. To be able to charge a dead or weak battery without having to remove access
>>
> panels.
>
>> 3. to be able to provide power during construction/testing with a cheapo spare
>>
> battery. I don't want to buy my ship's battery until the day before my first
> start.
>
>> I don't necessarily need to be able to switch the ground power on or off.
I'm
>>
> okay with the act of putting the plug in as switching it on. However, I would
> like the circuit to die once I pulled the plug out if that makes sense.
>
>> Does the Aero'lectric diagram meet my needs or do I need changes?
>>
>> Anyone have pictures of an installation, preferably in an RV10?
>>
>> --------
>> Myron Nelson
>> Mesa, AZ
>> Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
>>
>
>
> Hi Myron,
>
> Attached are some pictures of my GPU power installation in the RV-8. Works great
> and allows me to charge the battery, run the avionics, or start the engine.
> I also included the backbone wiring schematic. I'm using the Vertical Power
> VP-200 electrical system, but the GPU wiring should be fairly common. The GPU
> wiring is shown in the lower right hand side of the diagram. I haven't updated
> the diagram yet, but you might need to add a connection between the Sense
> input on the GPU plug through a Normally Open push button to the EBus (and through
> a small fuse or polyfuse). What I found was that the late-model chargers
> won't turn on their output unless they see about 4-5 volts. So, they won't pull
> the GPU relay down when you plug the GPU plug in. The button allows you to
> pull the relay in and make the charger think there is voltage. The only catch
> is that your aircraft battery has to have enough juice to pull the relay down.
>
> Let me know if you've have any questions.
>
> Matt Dralle
> RV-8 #82880 N998RV
> Laying Carpet Out in CAD...
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________
>
>
> From: "Richard Dudley" <rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ground Power
>
>
> Hi Myron,
>
> I installed the ground power circuit per Bob Nucolls including the breaker
> switch in my RV-6A. I used it pretty much as you describe except that I
> never had occasion to start the engine using ground power. All through the
> early testing and any time I wished to run electronics on the ground, I used
> a battery charger conneccted to the ground power receptacle. I also did an
> endurance test on the battery to determine how long it would maintain
> avionics in the event of an alternator loss when the battery was one year
> old. Then, I re-charged the battery via the receptacle. It was a great
> convenience an did all the things I intended.
>
> Regards,
>
> Richard Dudley
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com>
> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 8:42 PM
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ground Power
>
>
>
>> I am bumping this after a search.
>>
>> I am in the process of putting together a ground power receptacle for my
>> RV10.
>>
>> I have ordered a piper receptacle from A. Spruce, and the crowbar and
>> contactor from BandC.
>>
>> My primary goals are:
>>
>> 1. To be able to come up to a dead airplane, start it from ground power,
>> and go fly.
>>
>> 2. To be able to charge a dead or weak battery without having to remove
>> access panels.
>>
>> 3. to be able to provide power during construction/testing with a cheapo
>> spare battery. I don't want to buy my ship's battery until the day before
>> my first start.
>>
>> I don't necessarily need to be able to switch the ground power on or off.
>> I'm okay with the act of putting the plug in as switching it on. However,
>> I would like the circuit to die once I pulled the plug out if that makes
>> sense.
>>
>> Does the Aero'lectric diagram meet my needs or do I need changes?
>>
>> Anyone have pictures of an installation, preferably in an RV10?
>>
>> --------
>> Myron Nelson
>> Mesa, AZ
>> Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243327#243327
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
5/10/2009
Hello Myron, You wrote: "1. To be able to come up to a dead airplane, start
it from ground power, and go fly."
NOT a good idea -- (especially if the weather is woxof).
If the alternator quits before it has time to recharge the batterey (that
could take quite a while) then you have an airborne electrically dead
airplane.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
===========================================================
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ground Power
From: "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com>
I am bumping this after a search.
I am in the process of putting together a ground power receptacle for my
RV10.
I have ordered a piper receptacle from A. Spruce, and the crowbar and
contactor
from BandC.
My primary goals are:
1. To be able to come up to a dead airplane, start it from ground power,
and go
fly.
2. To be able to charge a dead or weak battery without having to remove
access
panels.
3. to be able to provide power during construction/testing with a cheapo
spare
battery. I don't want to buy my ship's battery until the day before my
first
start.
I don't necessarily need to be able to switch the ground power on or off.
I'm
okay with the act of putting the plug in as switching it on. However, I
would
like the circuit to die once I pulled the plug out if that makes sense.
Does the Aero'lectric diagram meet my needs or do I need changes?
Anyone have pictures of an installation, preferably in an RV10?
--------
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ground Power |
| From: | "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com> |
>>not a good idea
--------
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243398#243398
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Ground Power Receptacle? |
| From: | Ian <ixb(at)videotron.ca> |
Having spent the last couple of weeks needing to repeatedly recharge my
RV-9A battery, I can say that an external charging receptacle would have
made my life a lot easier.
Can anyone tell me the best receptacle to use, that would be the most
standard? Can you also suggest a good source?
While not planning to fly away on an almost dead battery, I do envisage
moments when it would be useful to start from ground power, and then do
some charging direct from the alternator. I'd imagine that flying
locally would be fairly safe while the battery is being topped up, as
long as your whole panel doesn't shut down if you lose battery.
Ian Brown
Bromont
Quebec
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | GPU - 24V System - Crowbar Needed |
| From: | "Craig Winkelmann" <capav8r(at)gmail.com> |
Bob:
The B&C OVM-14 is a 14 volt corwbar isn't it? For a 24 VDC system, what crowbar
would I use for a GPU? Also, wouldn't an inline fuse be helpful as the crowbar
basically provides a low resistance path to ground to bypass the contactor.
Don't you need something to a fuse or breaker to protect the crowbar from excessive
current?
Craig
PS - I'm working on a GPU for a 24V aircraft application.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243465#243465
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ground Power Receptacle? |
At 02:16 PM 5/10/2009, you wrote:
>
>Having spent the last couple of weeks needing to repeatedly recharge my
>RV-9A battery, I can say that an external charging receptacle would have
>made my life a lot easier.
>
>Can anyone tell me the best receptacle to use, that would be the most
>standard? Can you also suggest a good source?
The "military style" 3-prong race-track shaped connector
is common to all bizjets and cabin class aircraft. It's
the connector we used at Cessna on all single engine aircraft
too. I think Piper was the first to adapt the single
terminal high current truck connector to aircraft. It
was lighter, smaller, MUCH less expensive. The "Piper"
style connector found its way onto a number of smaller
Beech airplanes.
Either connector will be found on the FBO ramps.
Having said that, YOU are the one most likely to use
jumpers on your airplane so carrying a set of automotive
jumpers (4AWG) fitted with the Piper plug on one end and
big battery clips on the other is probably the most
practical for weight and cost.
>While not planning to fly away on an almost dead battery, I do envisage
>moments when it would be useful to start from ground power, and then do
>some charging direct from the alternator. I'd imagine that flying
>locally would be fairly safe while the battery is being topped up, as
>long as your whole panel doesn't shut down if you lose battery.
Lycoming alternator installations with small pulleys
will generally recharge a 17 a.h. battery in about
30 minutes or less. If the anticipated flight is
day vfr then by the time you get off the ground after
jump-starting the airplane, the battery should be
carrying a substantial charge . . . besides, you always
fly with these guys too . . . no?
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Vacination_for_Dark_Panel_Syndrom.pdf
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GPU - 24V System - Crowbar Needed |
At 08:16 PM 5/10/2009, you wrote:
>
>
>Bob:
>
>The B&C OVM-14 is a 14 volt corwbar isn't it? For a 24 VDC system,
>what crowbar would I use for a GPU? Also, wouldn't an inline fuse
>be helpful as the crowbar basically provides a low resistance path
>to ground to bypass the contactor. Don't you need something to a
>fuse or breaker to protect the crowbar from excessive current?
Yes. See
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/DCPwr/Ground_Power/Ground_Power_1.pdf
and . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/DCPwr/Ground_Power/Ground_Power_D.pdf
The OVM-14 and our CbOVM-14 can be supplied in a
OVM-28 and/or CbOVM-28 versions.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
Subject: Re: relays
Bcc: nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com
>Hi Bob,
>
>
>I m really struggling to understand how to wire a relay. Whilst I
>understand in principle the wiring, I m struggling to get it to work
>and no amount of reading schematics is sinking into my head!
>
>
>This is what I understand about the relay so far;
>
>Pin 30 is power in
>
>Pin 87 goes to the item to be powered - (let s say fuel pump)
>
>Pin 86 goes to ground
>
>Pin 85 is to the switch.
The numbers you're referring to are artifacts of a European
terminal identification system commonly used in automobiles
and probably other vehicles for decades. It's not uncommon
today to find off-the-shelf relays with terminal markings
molded into the housings that conform to this convention.
The numbering convention is illustrated in the drawing
cited below.
Think of the relay as a big, fat, remotely operated push-
button. Continuity through the push-button in the "relaxed"
state is through terminals 30 and 87a. Power can go either
way through these contacts.
The push-button is remotely operated by a magnetic motor
with coil terminals 85 and 86. It doesn't matter how
you apply 12v to this coil . . . terminal 85 OR 86
can be (+).
When you apply power to the coil, the "push-button"
contacts move to break continuity between 30/87a
and make contact between 30/87. This state is maintained
until you remove power from the coil.
>
>
>At the moment this switch is wired directly to the unit and for me
>that is easy to understand. The fuel pump 12v + is wired to the
>switch on the panel and then into the bus, fuel pump 12v is to
>airframe ground. Press the switch and it works. But put a relay
>in the midst of this and nothing happens apart from frying my brain!
Relays are used to shorten the distance you might
need to run "fat wires" and/or to add functionality.
For example, the switch needed to control the relay
is a simple single-pole, single-throw device but the
relay effects a single-pole, double-throw functionality.
>Is pin 30 the power supply from the bus that would normally go to
>the switch ? I m struggling to understand how to wire the switch
>into this circuit. Whilst this might sound elementary to you Bob,
>I just cannot get my head around it !!
>
>I need an verbatim explanation on how to wire the pump to the bus,
>the switch and the relay. Once I see it in practical terms, i.e.
>this wire goes to this, this wire goes to that, I m sure the penny
>will drop, just as it has on all other problems I ve hit!
There's a drawing on my website at . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Engine/Fuel/Fuel_Pump.pdf
. . . that describes one way to implement the
wiring you've asked about. Of course, the 10A fuse
and 18AWG wires may need to be resized for your
specific fuel pump . . .
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
A further benefit can be realized with membership on
the list. There are lots of technically capable folks
on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can
join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Ask your question again on the List. I check the List
several times a day and attempt to be responsive as time
will allow. Further, there are 1800 or so subscribers
that include many technically capable teachers. This
is the best venue for assisting you in your studies.
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Battery Charger as Ground Power |
| From: | "Craig Winkelmann" <capav8r(at)gmail.com> |
Bob:
I've been reading some posts on ground power and noted that some people are using
a battery charger as a ground power unit. From what I remember about the output
voltage of almost all battery chargers, there is a significant potential
to overvoltage the aircraft isn't there? The voltage from most chargers is not
filtered and is not as clean as you'd want for powering avionics, etc.
Am I right,
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243567#243567
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery Charger as Ground Power |
| From: | "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com> |
I'm no expert, but I think you are right.
I think a 12.5 volt "maintainer" would make much more sense. They can be had
at Harbor Freight for $5
For ground tests and assembly, I plan on using a cheapo lawn tractor battery with
a maintainer hooked up to it. The battery would then serve as a sink if there
is a problem with the maintainer.
--------
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243569#243569
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: GPU - 24V System - Crowbar Needed |
| From: | "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com> |
Can I ask a neophyte question in the quest for further light and knowledge?
Why is a contactor, and/or switch needed for ground power?
It seems to me that the very act of plugging in the plug could serve as "activating"
the power, and pulling the plug out would deactivate it.
What am I missing?
--------
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243572#243572
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: GPU - 24V System - Crowbar Needed |
| From: | "George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 605 TES/DOA" <Neal.George(at)hurlburt.af.mil> |
Myron -
Switching the ground power connection allows the pilot full control of the
circuit. Over-voltage warning enhancements provide the opportunity to
monitor and verify that the lineboy has indeed plugged in 12v instead of 24v
- before you light up the internal circuits.
Neal
==================
Can I ask a neophyte question in the quest for further light and knowledge?
Why is a contactor, and/or switch needed for ground power?
It seems to me that the very act of plugging in the plug could serve as
"activating" the power, and pulling the plug out would deactivate it.
What am I missing?
--------
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Comm & Nav audio with SPA 400 |
Hi all,
A buddy is trying to install a KX 155 with a Sigtronics SPA 400 in a two
seater.
He is trying to devise a way to hook up the Nav audio output.
Any suggestions as to how to mix or hook up Comm AND Nav audio ?
Thanks in advance
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Patrick Hildebrand" <equinav(at)interbaun.com> |
| Subject: | Comm & Nav audio with SPA 400 |
Usually, there is a audio input or "aux" input for the coms. This is
designed to mix the audio for a variety of devices.
You could try hooking pins 10 and L of connector A1 (Nav high and low) to
Pins H and F of connector A2 (Aux high and low in). This would mix the Nav
audio output into the comm audio input.
Probably accomplish what you need to mix the audio prior to the SAP400.
Patrick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles
Thesee
Sent: May 11, 2009 1:20 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Comm & Nav audio with SPA 400
<Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Hi all,
A buddy is trying to install a KX 155 with a Sigtronics SPA 400 in a two
seater.
He is trying to devise a way to hook up the Nav audio output.
Any suggestions as to how to mix or hook up Comm AND Nav audio ?
Thanks in advance
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Patrick Hildebrand" <equinav(at)interbaun.com> |
| Subject: | Comm & Nav audio with SPA 400 |
Usually, there is a audio input or "aux" input for the coms. This is
designed to mix the audio for a variety of devices.
You could try hooking pins 10 and L of connector A1 (Nav high and low) to
Pins H and F of connector A2 (Aux high and low in). This would mix the Nav
audio output into the comm audio input.
This would probably accomplish what you need to mix the audio prior to the
SAP400.
Patrick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles
Thesee
Sent: May 11, 2009 1:20 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Comm & Nav audio with SPA 400
<Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Hi all,
A buddy is trying to install a KX 155 with a Sigtronics SPA 400 in a two
seater.
He is trying to devise a way to hook up the Nav audio output.
Any suggestions as to how to mix or hook up Comm AND Nav audio ?
Thanks in advance
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Charger as Ground Power |
At 01:11 PM 5/11/2009, you wrote:
>
>
>Bob:
>
>I've been reading some posts on ground power and noted that some
>people are using a battery charger as a ground power unit. From
>what I remember about the output voltage of almost all battery
>chargers, there is a significant potential to overvoltage the
>aircraft isn't there? The voltage from most chargers is not
>filtered and is not as clean as you'd want for powering avionics, etc.
"Battery Charger" is non-qualified. Technically, any
source of energy that is capable of reversing current
flow into a battery is a 'charger'.
The quality of output power from chargers can be all
over the map. The very first charger I owned was a
6v Tungar rectifier electro-whizzy.
Emacs!
The output quality of this thing would have been
REALLY noisy, ZERO voltage regulation, hideously
inefficient, but entirely suited to keeping my '41
Pontiac straight-6 ready to start on a cold morning.
By the way, anyone interested in exploring/reliving
some of the history of lead-acid battery technology,
feel free to download this item. (Caution 9+ MB)
http://tinyurl.com/owad89
45 years later and at the other end of the spectrum,
we can purchase light, relatively inexpensive, high
quality switch-mode power supplies that will serve as
both ground power supplies for system operations but
battery chargers as well.
Unfortunately, devices tailored to serve as "smart"
chargers (quick recharge, indefinite storage) probably
don't make good ground power supplies because their
internal battery-pampering software gets confused when
the "battery" being maintained keeps changing terminal
voltage and load.
A few years ago, we made a great buy on a quantity
of Samlex 1223 power supplies.
http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/hamps/2423.html
We offered these as "alternator simulators" with the
suggestion that they could be used to make the ship's
systems believe that a 23A alternator was running.
This would allow the ship's battery to be charged
and ship's systems of up to 20A draw (about anything
but pitot heat) to be tested in the shop.
The short answer is that not all battery chargers
are suited for use as ground power supplies perhaps
due to their particular noise/voltage-regulation
characteristics. However, you can hook any charger
across a battery and give it a try. Make sure you
know how it behaves in the long term (watch bus
voltage) and know it's specific limits. With
a modicum of due-diligence, the experiment offers
minimal risk to system components.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GPU - 24V System - Crowbar Needed |
At 01:38 PM 5/11/2009, you wrote:
>
>Can I ask a neophyte question in the quest for further light and knowledge?
>
>Why is a contactor, and/or switch needed for ground power?
The implementation of ground power connectors
published on my website and discussed on the forums
grew out of the following design goals:
(1) protection from 28 volt ground power being applied
to a 14v airplane.
(2) pilot control of ground power from the left seat.
(3) reverse polarity protection.
(4) convenience of an industry-common connection to
the aircraft relatively free of hazard to ground
crew from spinning props.
Twice in my experience, I've had 28v connected to my
14v airplane. In one case, the line-boy caught the error
and flipped the switch before I could even react. In the
other case he couldn't hear me over the roar of the
ground power cart engine and he had his back to me
watching the gages on the cart. I had to unbuckle,
slide over, open r.h. cabin door and yell at him while
stuff in the airplane suffered.
>It seems to me that the very act of plugging in the plug could serve
>as "activating" the power, and pulling the plug out would deactivate it.
Making and breaking a high current load during
mate/de-mate operations is hard on the connector.
But if you plan to exercise absolute and personal
control over how and under what conditions external
sources of power get hooked to your airplane, then
it might be as simple a task as hooking up the
jumper cables.
But standing in a stream of wet, wind-driven snow
this winter, I got a pair of jumper cables reversed
to my son's van . . . didn't hurt anything but it
sure COULD have. The degree of risk you're willing
to shoulder is up to you.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ground Power |
| From: | Walter Fellows <walter.fellows(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks for the post, your installation is nicely documented.
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 6:21 PM, Matt Dralle wrote:
> At 05:42 PM 5/9/2009 Saturday, you wrote:
> >
> >I am bumping this after a search.
> >
> >I am in the process of putting together a ground power receptacle for my
> RV10.
> >
> >I have ordered a piper receptacle from A. Spruce, and the crowbar and
> contactor from BandC.
> >
> >My primary goals are:
> >
> >1. To be able to come up to a dead airplane, start it from ground power,
> and go fly.
> >
> >2. To be able to charge a dead or weak battery without having to remove
> access panels.
> >
> >3. to be able to provide power during construction/testing with a cheapo
> spare battery. I don't want to buy my ship's battery until the day before
> my first start.
> >
> >I don't necessarily need to be able to switch the ground power on or off.
> I'm okay with the act of putting the plug in as switching it on. However,
> I would like the circuit to die once I pulled the plug out if that makes
> sense.
> >
> >Does the Aero'lectric diagram meet my needs or do I need changes?
> >
> >Anyone have pictures of an installation, preferably in an RV10?
> >
> >--------
> >Myron Nelson
> >Mesa, AZ
> >Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
>
>
> Hi Myron,
>
> Attached are some pictures of my GPU power installation in the RV-8. Works
> great and allows me to charge the battery, run the avionics, or start the
> engine. I also included the backbone wiring schematic. I'm using the
> Vertical Power VP-200 electrical system, but the GPU wiring should be fairly
> common. The GPU wiring is shown in the lower right hand side of the
> diagram. I haven't updated the diagram yet, but you might need to add a
> connection between the Sense input on the GPU plug through a Normally Open
> push button to the EBus (and through a small fuse or polyfuse). What I
> found was that the late-model chargers won't turn on their output unless
> they see about 4-5 volts. So, they won't pull the GPU relay down when you
> plug the GPU plug in. The button allows you to pull the relay in and make
> the charger think there is voltage. The only catch is that your aircraft
> battery has to have enough juice to pull the relay down.
>
> Let me know if you've have any questions.
>
> Matt Dralle
> RV-8 #82880 N998RV
> Laying Carpet Out in CAD...
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Charger as Ground Power |
At 01:58 PM 5/11/2009 Monday, you wrote:
>At 01:11 PM 5/11/2009, you wrote:
>>
>>Bob:
>>
>>I've been reading some posts on ground power and noted that some people are using
a battery charger as a ground power unit. From what I remember about the
output voltage of almost all battery chargers, there is a significant potential
to overvoltage the aircraft isn't there? The voltage from most chargers is
not filtered and is not as clean as you'd want for powering avionics, etc.
>
> Unfortunately, devices tailored to serve as "smart"
> chargers (quick recharge, indefinite storage) probably
> don't make good ground power supplies because their
> internal battery-pampering software gets confused when
> the "battery" being maintained keeps changing terminal
> voltage and load.
>
> A few years ago, we made a great buy on a quantity
> of Samlex 1223 power supplies.
>
> Bob . . .
I've got one of these Black and Decker BC40EB units that has adjustable charge
output limits in addition to a 110amp starter booster. I'm plugging it into my
GPU plug and use it to run the avionics, charge the battery, and I'm hoping
eventually to jump start the engine when the battery is on the low side. The
only downside seems to be that the unit has to see 4-5volts on the "battery" before
it will turn on its output. This means that it won't flip the GPU relay
and you have to have an external switch to do that.
Bob, does this seem like a good charger/GPU product for aircraft systems?
http://www.blackanddecker.com/ProductGuide/Product-Details.aspx?ProductID=17925
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV
Carpet CAD Drawings...
(1200+ Hours Build Time...)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: GPU - 24V System - Crowbar Needed |
Besides keeping the wrong voltage from hitting your battery and buss, a
ground power contactor keeps the fat wire running to the receptacle from
being hot all the time and being a potential shorting hazard.
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
woxofswa wrote:
>
> Can I ask a neophyte question in the quest for further light and knowledge?
>
> Why is a contactor, and/or switch needed for ground power?
>
> It seems to me that the very act of plugging in the plug could serve as "activating"
the power, and pulling the plug out would deactivate it.
>
> What am I missing?
>
> --------
> Myron Nelson
> Mesa, AZ
> Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243572#243572
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Ground Power Receptacle? |
5/11/2009
Hello Ian, You wrote:
1) "Having spent the last couple of weeks needing to repeatedly recharge my
RV-9A battery,........"
What is abnormal about either your system or your mode of operation that
causes this repeat problem? If there is a fundamental fault in either of
those two areas maybe a fault correction approach rather than an external
charging receptacle band-aid should be considered.
2) "......I can say that an external charging receptacle would have made my
life a lot easier."
Realize that external charging receptacles can come in two different
flavors:
A) A simple low amperage connection system going directly to the battery
that is suitable for connecting a 120 volt input, low amperage output
battery charger / maintainer for just the purpose of recharging /
maintaining the battery.
B) A more elaborate high amperage system that would facilitate cranking the
engine as well as recharging the battery with maybe some additional features
such as reverse voltage protection.
3) "Can anyone tell me the best receptacle to use, that would be the most
standard?"
You would have to decide whether you wanted an A or a B solution in order to
answer the "best" question.
If an A solution satisfies your needs then there are dozens of choices -- it
only requires two wires with some simplistic polarity protection. I have
operated for several years now with just two wires coming directly from my
battery up to the cockpit area. One wire is terminated with a female, fully
insulated, Faston type connector, the other wire is terminated with a male,
fully insulated, Faston type connector. The wires are just tucked out of the
way when not in use. See:
http://www.terminaltown.com/Pages/Page9.html
My battery charger clip ons have been modified with the appropriate stub
wires and Faston type connectors added. One benefit of this system is that I
can connect it up and then attach a volt meter to the charger clips. It
tells me what the battery voltage is. Then I can plug in the charger and
monitor the charging voltage -- very handy.
If only a B solution will satisfy you then look to Bob Nuckoll's published
material on this subject. The most commonly found receptacle and plug
arrangement found at FBO's is the three prong. See here:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/extpowerrect.php
The next most commonly found is the Piper receptacle and plug arrangement.**
See here:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/piperplugsock.php
BUT there is a major "gotcha" that you must be aware of if you have a 12
volt aircraft electrical system and you install one of the above
receptacles -- some ground power carts with the above plugs will only put
out 24 volts. If you zap your 12 volt system with 24 volts you will suffer
damage.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
**PS: There is also a single center post receptacle and plug system similar
in apprearance to the Piper system, but not compatible, that is found on
some Beechcraft airplanes. Very unlikely to find a ground power cart with a
plug compatible with this odd ball receptacle.
========================================================
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ground Power Receptacle?
From: Ian <ixb(at)videotron.ca>
Having spent the last couple of weeks needing to repeatedly recharge my
RV-9A battery, I can say that an external charging receptacle would have
made my life a lot easier.
Can anyone tell me the best receptacle to use, that would be the most
standard? Can you also suggest a good source?
While not planning to fly away on an almost dead battery, I do envisage
moments when it would be useful to start from ground power, and then do
some charging direct from the alternator. I'd imagine that flying
locally would be fairly safe while the battery is being topped up, as
long as your whole panel doesn't shut down if you lose battery.
Ian Brown
Bromont
Quebec
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David L." <skywagon(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Charger as Ground Power |
The little, cheap Harbor Freight "maintainers" work quite well. I have used several.
One key point however, ...many of them come set a tad too high in their
fixed "float" voltage, to my thinking. I have seen them as high as 13.9 v.
The good news, is they can be adjusted to the float voltage that you want. The
little controller box should have a back lid that is lightly glued in place.
Carefully work a very narrow blade screw driver or other tough, but thin device
into the glued seam and work it until the back pops off. Inside is a small
circuit board and potentiometer. It may have a spot of RTV on it. Work this
loose. Turning the pot CW lowers to float voltage. I like about 13.2 v. Others
may want a slightly different setting. I usually locate where the pot slotted
screw adjust hole is located next to the little case and drill a 3/16 hole.
That way, it can be adjusted from the outside. The little unit is quite stable
after you get the setting where you want it. David
---- woxofswa wrote:
============
I'm no expert, but I think you are right.
I think a 12.5 volt "maintainer" would make much more sense. They can be had
at Harbor Freight for $5
For ground tests and assembly, I plan on using a cheapo lawn tractor battery with
a maintainer hooked up to it. The battery would then serve as a sink if there
is a problem with the maintainer.
--------
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243569#243569
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery Charger as Ground Power |
| From: | "Craig Winkelmann" <capav8r(at)gmail.com> |
Bob:
Thanks, BUT some GPUs bypass the battery because they are not meant to be a port
for charging the battery. In these cases, whatever comes out of the charger
goes on the main bus. I suspect the right thing is to see how conditioned and
stable the output voltage is prior to plugging the unit into a plane full of
expensive avionics.
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243643#243643
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Kevin Jones" <kmjone2(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Wonky Ammeter Redux |
Hello Folks,
I have a problem that is very similar to the Aeroelectric Connection
issue of the same subject from 2001. I've got a Vans -40,0+40 ammeter
(load meter) connected to a 40mV @40A shunt wired exactly (minus the
fuselinks) as Figure Z-13 in the Connection. I also have a 10mV shunt
wired to read the aux SD-8 alternator loads. The signal wires from the
two shunts are controlled by a switch on the panel. Main is wired to
show negative, aux is positive ammeter deflection. The following is my
scenario:
1. Ground operation with engine off; power supplied to main alternator
feed through a radio shack 13.8V 3A supply.
2. Ammeter power is on the E-Bus, with alternate feed switch off.
3. Power supply is providing ~3A and I measure 3.8mV across the shunt.
Shunt voltage to ground is 13.08V.
4. Instrument reads ~3.5mV at the sense wire connections
5. Instrument power voltage is ~12.2 volts
6. Ammeter shows full-scale discharge (negative). If I turn power
supply off, this doesn't change???
If I switch on the E-Bus alternate feed, the ammeter returns to zero.
Instrument voltage increases to 12.6V.
If I power the alternate alternator feed, ammeter shows slight positive
deflection, but nothing near the 35% deflection expected.
I first started running this problem down after seeing large ammeter
deflections with the strobe on without any load applied to the shunt.
How robust are the Vans ammeters and should I invest in a new one or
re-wire the system? Why would opening the E-Bus alternate path cause a
change in ammeter reading? Do I need to feed the ammeter with the same
voltage as the shunt?
Many thanks.
KJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Charger as Ground Power |
>I think a 12.5 volt "maintainer" would make much more sense. They
>can be had at Harbor Freight for $5
>
>For ground tests and assembly, I plan on using a cheapo lawn tractor
>battery with a maintainer hooked up to it. The battery would then
>serve as a sink if there is a problem with the maintainer.
Actually, the ideal maintainer voltage is just
above 100-200 millivolts the battery's open circuit
voltage 24 hours or so after taking it off the charger.
Lead-Acid batteries, this is 13.1 to 13.2 volts.
The idea is that you want to hold the battery at or
just above it's own chemistry voltage . . . thus
any and all tendencies to self-discharge are supported
by the external energy source. I.e. self-discharge
currents do not tax the chemistry. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Battery_Tender_Recharge.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Ideal_Recharge_Protocol.jpg
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Charger as Ground Power |
At 09:13 PM 5/11/2009, you wrote:
>
>
>Bob:
>
>Thanks, BUT some GPUs bypass the battery because they are not meant
>to be a port for charging the battery. In these cases, whatever
>comes out of the charger goes on the main bus. I suspect the right
>thing is to see how conditioned and stable the output voltage is
>prior to plugging the unit into a plane full of expensive avionics.
It's the system integrator's task to decide whether
or not the battery is on line during ground power
connection. I've heard the stories for both cases
for BIG airplanes with BIG batteries and BIG ground
power carts.
For our purposes and considering relative sizes
of our hardware, it's best to have a battery on
line during ground power ops . . . especially
if the power quality of the power source has not
been fully qualified to the task.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: GPU - 24V System - Crowbar Needed |
| From: | "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com> |
Thanks for the info guys.
I am going to do it the proper way and have already ordered the parts. I just like
understanding the science as well
--------
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243671#243671
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Connecting a battery charger to a 2 battery system |
I have a 2 battery Z-14 system in an RV10. Rather than have a full
ground power capability, I'm planning to have some sort of plugs
available through the baggage compartment that would allow me to hook up
a smart charger occassionally.
Has anyone come up with a good set of plugs for this application? A
good approach to hooking up 2 batteries - either 1 at a time or both?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery Charger as Ground Power |
| From: | bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
i have 6 or 8 of these little chargers on all my toys. i have noticed on
some some that the voltage was too low. i tried once to adjust the voltage
but couldn't get anything to turn.i guess i will go back and try again to
adjust the voltage on a couple that are too low. on the one that was too
high i soldered a diode in line and dropped the voltage.
bob noffs
On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 8:31 PM, David L. wrote:
>
> The little, cheap Harbor Freight "maintainers" work quite well. I have
> used several. One key point however, ...many of them come set a tad too
> high in their fixed "float" voltage, to my thinking. I have seen them as
> high as 13.9 v.
>
> The good news, is they can be adjusted to the float voltage that you want.
> The little controller box should have a back lid that is lightly glued in
> place. Carefully work a very narrow blade screw driver or other tough, but
> thin device into the glued seam and work it until the back pops off. Inside
> is a small circuit board and potentiometer. It may have a spot of RTV on
> it. Work this loose. Turning the pot CW lowers to float voltage. I like
> about 13.2 v. Others may want a slightly different setting. I usually
> locate where the pot slotted screw adjust hole is located next to the little
> case and drill a 3/16 hole. That way, it can be adjusted from the outside.
> The little unit is quite stable after you get the setting where you want
> it. David
>
>
> ---- woxofswa wrote:
>
> ============
>
> I'm no expert, but I think you are right.
>
> I think a 12.5 volt "maintainer" would make much more sense. They can be
> had at Harbor Freight for $5
>
> For ground tests and assembly, I plan on using a cheapo lawn tractor
> battery with a maintainer hooked up to it. The battery would then serve as
> a sink if there is a problem with the maintainer.
>
> --------
> Myron Nelson
> Mesa, AZ
> Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243569#243569
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Ciolino <johnciolino(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Connecting a battery charger to a 2 battery system |
Take a look at www.powerletproducts.com. They have a variety of outlets
to install on motorcycles for heated clothing, GPS, etc. I installed an
SAE connector (designed to be mounted on a saddlebag) in the panel
covering my battery in the forward baggage compartment of my RV-8. The
Battery Tender I use terminates in an SAE connector to switch between
alligator clips or a pigtail with ring terminals to be mounted to the
battery.
John Ciolino
.
Bill Mauledriver Watson wrote:
>
>
> I have a 2 battery Z-14 system in an RV10. Rather than have a full
> ground power capability, I'm planning to have some sort of plugs
> available through the baggage compartment that would allow me to hook
> up a smart charger occassionally.
>
> Has anyone come up with a good set of plugs for this application? A
> good approach to hooking up 2 batteries - either 1 at a time or both?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ground Power Receptacle? |
| From: | Ian <ixb(at)videotron.ca> |
Thanks. Of course my main effort here is to fix the reason for my lack
of charging, which you would have seen in another post.
I like "B" since it can serve both purposes, and RV's are a bit
inaccessible when buttoned up. I do actually have "A" already. I have
a little trickle charger/conditioner that came with a connector that is
mounted permanently and accessible through my engine oil check hatch.
Bob Nuckolls suggested that the Piper connector is relatively common -
there are LOTS of Piper aircraft around so I'll probably go with the
significantly less expensive Piper connectors, and make sure to put some
good "12V ONLY" labeling next to the connector.
Thanks to all who responded.
>
> 5/11/2009
>
> Hello Ian, You wrote:
>
> 1) "Having spent the last couple of weeks needing to repeatedly recharge my
> RV-9A battery,........"
>
> What is abnormal about either your system or your mode of operation that
> causes this repeat problem? If there is a fundamental fault in either of
> those two areas maybe a fault correction approach rather than an external
> charging receptacle band-aid should be considered.
>
> 2) "......I can say that an external charging receptacle would have made my
> life a lot easier."
>
> Realize that external charging receptacles can come in two different
> flavors:
>
> A) A simple low amperage connection system going directly to the battery
> that is suitable for connecting a 120 volt input, low amperage output
> battery charger / maintainer for just the purpose of recharging /
> maintaining the battery.
>
> B) A more elaborate high amperage system that would facilitate cranking the
> engine as well as recharging the battery with maybe some additional features
> such as reverse voltage protection.
>
> 3) "Can anyone tell me the best receptacle to use, that would be the most
> standard?"
>
> You would have to decide whether you wanted an A or a B solution in order to
> answer the "best" question.
>
> If an A solution satisfies your needs then there are dozens of choices -- it
> only requires two wires with some simplistic polarity protection. I have
> operated for several years now with just two wires coming directly from my
> battery up to the cockpit area. One wire is terminated with a female, fully
> insulated, Faston type connector, the other wire is terminated with a male,
> fully insulated, Faston type connector. The wires are just tucked out of the
> way when not in use. See:
>
> http://www.terminaltown.com/Pages/Page9.html
>
> My battery charger clip ons have been modified with the appropriate stub
> wires and Faston type connectors added. One benefit of this system is that I
> can connect it up and then attach a volt meter to the charger clips. It
> tells me what the battery voltage is. Then I can plug in the charger and
> monitor the charging voltage -- very handy.
>
> If only a B solution will satisfy you then look to Bob Nuckoll's published
> material on this subject. The most commonly found receptacle and plug
> arrangement found at FBO's is the three prong. See here:
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/extpowerrect.php
>
> The next most commonly found is the Piper receptacle and plug arrangement.**
> See here:
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/piperplugsock.php
>
> BUT there is a major "gotcha" that you must be aware of if you have a 12
> volt aircraft electrical system and you install one of the above
> receptacles -- some ground power carts with the above plugs will only put
> out 24 volts. If you zap your 12 volt system with 24 volts you will suffer
> damage.
>
> 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
> understand knowledge."
>
> **PS: There is also a single center post receptacle and plug system similar
> in apprearance to the Piper system, but not compatible, that is found on
> some Beechcraft airplanes. Very unlikely to find a ground power cart with a
> plug compatible with this odd ball receptacle.
>
> ========================================================
>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ground Power Receptacle?
> From: Ian <ixb(at)videotron.ca>
>
>
> Having spent the last couple of weeks needing to repeatedly recharge my
> RV-9A battery, I can say that an external charging receptacle would have
> made my life a lot easier.
>
> Can anyone tell me the best receptacle to use, that would be the most
> standard? Can you also suggest a good source?
>
> While not planning to fly away on an almost dead battery, I do envisage
> moments when it would be useful to start from ground power, and then do
> some charging direct from the alternator. I'd imagine that flying
> locally would be fairly safe while the battery is being topped up, as
> long as your whole panel doesn't shut down if you lose battery.
>
> Ian Brown
> Bromont
> Quebec
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | paul wilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Connecting a battery charger to a 2 battery system |
Why not use the plug that comes with the Shumacher smart maintainer.
It is intended to be attached to the batt. When not in use just let
it lay in an inconspicuous place. No cost involved and it is
insulated & polarized. Other smart maintainers come the same way.
Paul
=========
At 04:20 AM 5/12/2009, you wrote:
>
>
>I have a 2 battery Z-14 system in an RV10. Rather than have a full
>ground power capability, I'm planning to have some sort of plugs
>available through the baggage compartment that would allow me to
>hook up a smart charger occassionally.
>
>Has anyone come up with a good set of plugs for this application? A
>good approach to hooking up 2 batteries - either 1 at a time or both?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Connecting a battery charger to a 2 battery system |
I'm also very interested in learning how to design / craft a method for
connecting a GPU to a 2 battery (Z-14) a/c. Experience has taught me
that notwithstanding my excellent memory and scrupulous use of
checklists that some gremlin inevitably sneaks into the cockpit and
turns the master on, while I'm out enjoying myself at a distant
airfield. If this happens at home field its less of an issue, but when
it happens away, =-O . Anyone done this, or have some suggestions?
Deems Davis
N519PJ
Bill Mauledriver Watson wrote:
>
>
> I have a 2 battery Z-14 system in an RV10. Rather than have a full
> ground power capability, I'm planning to have some sort of plugs
> available through the baggage compartment that would allow me to hook
> up a smart charger occassionally.
>
> Has anyone come up with a good set of plugs for this application? A
> good approach to hooking up 2 batteries - either 1 at a time or both?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Connecting a battery charger to a 2 battery system |
| From: | "bcondrey" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com> |
I've got a 3 pin XLR jack mounted in a lightening hole in the rear seat brace.
Very easy to access from the baggage door. It's wired with 1 pin to ground and
1 to each battery through a fuse. I only use it for trickle charging.
Bob
RV-10 N442PM
jack: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103444
plug: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2104076
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243707#243707
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Modifying the Piper plug |
| From: | "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com> |
Bob,
In one of your links you posted here, there is a diagram for modifying the plug.
It has several numerical references on the various steps and parts, but I can't
find the text or reference guide to those numerical references.
Could you please link or post?
Thanks for being such a valuable resource.
--------
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243753#243753
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ground Power Receptacle? |
| From: | bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
i used to own a piper and also worked for a moving company. soooooooooooooo
i know the plug from piper and for a semi trailer are the same. but a
trailer shop can probably supply it for 1/3 the cost. this if an aux.
supply, not the trailer lights.
bob noffs
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Ian wrote:
>
> Thanks. Of course my main effort here is to fix the reason for my lack
> of charging, which you would have seen in another post.
>
> I like "B" since it can serve both purposes, and RV's are a bit
> inaccessible when buttoned up. I do actually have "A" already. I have
> a little trickle charger/conditioner that came with a connector that is
> mounted permanently and accessible through my engine oil check hatch.
>
> Bob Nuckolls suggested that the Piper connector is relatively common -
> there are LOTS of Piper aircraft around so I'll probably go with the
> significantly less expensive Piper connectors, and make sure to put some
> good "12V ONLY" labeling next to the connector.
>
> Thanks to all who responded.
>
> >
> > 5/11/2009
> >
> > Hello Ian, You wrote:
> >
> > 1) "Having spent the last couple of weeks needing to repeatedly recharge
> my
> > RV-9A battery,........"
> >
> > What is abnormal about either your system or your mode of operation that
> > causes this repeat problem? If there is a fundamental fault in either of
> > those two areas maybe a fault correction approach rather than an external
> > charging receptacle band-aid should be considered.
> >
> > 2) "......I can say that an external charging receptacle would have made
> my
> > life a lot easier."
> >
> > Realize that external charging receptacles can come in two different
> > flavors:
> >
> > A) A simple low amperage connection system going directly to the battery
> > that is suitable for connecting a 120 volt input, low amperage output
> > battery charger / maintainer for just the purpose of recharging /
> > maintaining the battery.
> >
> > B) A more elaborate high amperage system that would facilitate cranking
> the
> > engine as well as recharging the battery with maybe some additional
> features
> > such as reverse voltage protection.
> >
> > 3) "Can anyone tell me the best receptacle to use, that would be the most
> > standard?"
> >
> > You would have to decide whether you wanted an A or a B solution in order
> to
> > answer the "best" question.
> >
> > If an A solution satisfies your needs then there are dozens of choices --
> it
> > only requires two wires with some simplistic polarity protection. I have
> > operated for several years now with just two wires coming directly from
> my
> > battery up to the cockpit area. One wire is terminated with a female,
> fully
> > insulated, Faston type connector, the other wire is terminated with a
> male,
> > fully insulated, Faston type connector. The wires are just tucked out of
> the
> > way when not in use. See:
> >
> > http://www.terminaltown.com/Pages/Page9.html
> >
> > My battery charger clip ons have been modified with the appropriate stub
> > wires and Faston type connectors added. One benefit of this system is
> that I
> > can connect it up and then attach a volt meter to the charger clips. It
> > tells me what the battery voltage is. Then I can plug in the charger and
> > monitor the charging voltage -- very handy.
> >
> > If only a B solution will satisfy you then look to Bob Nuckoll's
> published
> > material on this subject. The most commonly found receptacle and plug
> > arrangement found at FBO's is the three prong. See here:
> >
> > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/extpowerrect.php
> >
> > The next most commonly found is the Piper receptacle and plug
> arrangement.**
> > See here:
> >
> > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/piperplugsock.php
> >
> > BUT there is a major "gotcha" that you must be aware of if you have a 12
> > volt aircraft electrical system and you install one of the above
> > receptacles -- some ground power carts with the above plugs will only put
> > out 24 volts. If you zap your 12 volt system with 24 volts you will
> suffer
> > damage.
> >
> > 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
> > understand knowledge."
> >
> > **PS: There is also a single center post receptacle and plug system
> similar
> > in apprearance to the Piper system, but not compatible, that is found on
> > some Beechcraft airplanes. Very unlikely to find a ground power cart with
> a
> > plug compatible with this odd ball receptacle.
> >
> > ========================================================
> >
> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ground Power Receptacle?
> > From: Ian <ixb(at)videotron.ca>
> >
> >
> > Having spent the last couple of weeks needing to repeatedly recharge my
> > RV-9A battery, I can say that an external charging receptacle would have
> > made my life a lot easier.
> >
> > Can anyone tell me the best receptacle to use, that would be the most
> > standard? Can you also suggest a good source?
> >
> > While not planning to fly away on an almost dead battery, I do envisage
> > moments when it would be useful to start from ground power, and then do
> > some charging direct from the alternator. I'd imagine that flying
> > locally would be fairly safe while the battery is being topped up, as
> > long as your whole panel doesn't shut down if you lose battery.
> >
> > Ian Brown
> > Bromont
> > Quebec
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Mauledriver Watson <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Connecting a battery charger to a 2 battery |
system
bcondrey wrote:
>
> I've got a 3 pin XLR jack mounted in a lightening hole in the rear seat brace.
Very easy to access from the baggage door. It's wired with 1 pin to ground
and 1 to each battery through a fuse. I only use it for trickle charging.
>
> Bob
> RV-10 N442PM
>
> jack: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103444
> plug: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2104076
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243707#243707
>
>
>
Bob, that was exactly the kind of thing I was looking for - at the right
price.
I'm thinking that hooking a single smart charger to 2 batteries is a
no-no. A 'dumb' trickle charger perhaps.
In any case, Thanks much!
Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Connecting a battery charger to a 2 battery system |
| From: | "bcondrey" <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com> |
Bill,
Just to be clear, I have each battery wired through a fuse to its own pin on the
connector so I can get to either for charging through the connector. I picked
up a couple of Battery Tender Jr.s on sale someplace and have those wired in.
Works great!
Bob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243773#243773
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "n801bh(at)netzero.com" <n801bh(at)NetZero.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ground Power Receptacle? |
This is available from just about any auto parts store.
Cole Hersey is the manufacturer.
Socket is 11041. Plug is 11042. Durable, lightweight and inexpensive. I
have one on my beast.
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
---------- Original Message ----------
From: bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground Power Receptacle?
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 13:24:00 -0500
i used to own a piper and also worked for a moving company. sooooooooooo
ooo i know the plug from piper and for a semi trailer are the same. but
a trailer shop can probably supply it for 1/3 the cost. this if an aux.
supply, not the trailer lights. bob noffs
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Ian wrote:
Thanks. Of course my main effort here is to fix the reason for my lack
of charging, which you would have seen in another post.
I like "B" since it can serve both purposes, and RV's are a bit
inaccessible when buttoned up. I do actually have "A" already. I have
a little trickle charger/conditioner that came with a connector that is
mounted permanently and accessible through my engine oil check hatch.
Bob Nuckolls suggested that the Piper connector is relatively common -
there are LOTS of Piper aircraft around so I'll probably go with the
significantly less expensive Piper connectors, and make sure to put some
good "12V ONLY" labeling next to the connector.
Thanks to all who responded.
>
> 5/11/2009
>
> Hello Ian, You wrote:
>
> 1) "Having spent the last couple of weeks needing to repeatedly rechar
ge my
> RV-9A battery,........"
>
> What is abnormal about either your system or your mode of operation th
at
> causes this repeat problem? If there is a fundamental fault in either
of
> those two areas maybe a fault correction approach rather than an exter
nal
> charging receptacle band-aid should be considered.
>
> 2) "......I can say that an external charging receptacle would have ma
de my
> life a lot easier."
>
> Realize that external charging receptacles can come in two different
> flavors:
>
> A) A simple low amperage connection system going directly to the batte
ry
> that is suitable for connecting a 120 volt input, low amperage output
> battery charger / maintainer for just the purpose of recharging /
> maintaining the battery.
>
> B) A more elaborate high amperage system that would facilitate crankin
g the
> engine as well as recharging the battery with maybe some additional fe
atures
> such as reverse voltage protection.
>
> 3) "Can anyone tell me the best receptacle to use, that would be the m
ost
> standard?"
>
> You would have to decide whether you wanted an A or a B solution in or
der to
> answer the "best" question.
>
> If an A solution satisfies your needs then there are dozens of choices
-- it
> only requires two wires with some simplistic polarity protection. I ha
ve
> operated for several years now with just two wires coming directly fro
m my
> battery up to the cockpit area. One wire is terminated with a female,
fully
> insulated, Faston type connector, the other wire is terminated with a
male,
> fully insulated, Faston type connector. The wires are just tucked out
of the
> way when not in use. See:
>
> http://www.terminaltown.com/Pages/Page9.html
>
> My battery charger clip ons have been modified with the appropriate st
ub
> wires and Faston type connectors added. One benefit of this system is
that I
> can connect it up and then attach a volt meter to the charger clips. I
t
> tells me what the battery voltage is. Then I can plug in the charger a
nd
> monitor the charging voltage -- very handy.
>
> If only a B solution will satisfy you then look to Bob Nuckoll's publi
shed
> material on this subject. The most commonly found receptacle and plug
> arrangement found at FBO's is the three prong. See here:
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/extpowerrect.php
>
> The next most commonly found is the Piper receptacle and plug arrangem
ent.**
> See here:
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/piperplugsock.php
>
> BUT there is a major "gotcha" that you must be aware of if you have a
12
> volt aircraft electrical system and you install one of the above
> receptacles -- some ground power carts with the above plugs will only
put
> out 24 volts. If you zap your 12 volt system with 24 volts you will su
ffer
> damage.
>
> 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather an
d
> understand knowledge."
>
> **PS: There is also a single center post receptacle and plug system si
milar
> in apprearance to the Piper system, but not compatible, that is found
on
> some Beechcraft airplanes. Very unlikely to find a ground power cart w
ith a
> plug compatible with this odd ball receptacle.
>
> ======
>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ground Power Receptacle?
> From: Ian <ixb(at)videotron.ca>
>
>
> Having spent the last couple of weeks needing to repeatedly recharge m
y
> RV-9A battery, I can say that an external charging receptacle would ha
ve
> made my life a lot easier.
>
> Can anyone tell me the best receptacle to use, that would be the most
> standard? Can you also suggest a good source?
>
> While not planning to fly away on an almost dead battery, I do envisag
e
> moments when it would be useful to start from ground power, and then d
o
> some charging direct from the alternator. I'd imagine that flying
> locally would be fairly safe while the battery is being topped up, as
> long as your whole panel doesn't shut down if you lose battery.
>
> Ian Brown
> Bromont
> Quebec
>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 28V Contactors and Crowbar |
| From: | "Craig Winkelmann" <capav8r(at)gmail.com> |
Bob:
Thanks for letting me know you have the 28V crowbar. What about a 28V contactor?
All I see are 12V at B&C.
Thanks,
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=243806#243806
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Ground Power Receptacle? |
5/13/2009
Hello Ian, You wrote: ".......and make sure to put some good "12V ONLY"
labeling next to the connector."
That should work until you encounter the same line boy, or his cousin, that
recently refueled a recip powered twin engine airplane with jet fuel which
caused a crash shortly after take off.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
====================================================
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground Power Receptacle?
From: Ian <ixb(at)videotron.ca>
Thanks. Of course my main effort here is to fix the reason for my lack
of charging, which you would have seen in another post.
I like "B" since it can serve both purposes, and RV's are a bit
inaccessible when buttoned up. I do actually have "A" already. I have
a little trickle charger/conditioner that came with a connector that is
mounted permanently and accessible through my engine oil check hatch.
Bob Nuckolls suggested that the Piper connector is relatively common -
there are LOTS of Piper aircraft around so I'll probably go with the
significantly less expensive Piper connectors, and make sure to put some
good "12V ONLY" labeling next to the connector.
Thanks to all who responded.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ground Power Receptacle? |
At 03:38 PM 5/12/2009, you wrote:
>This is available from just about any auto parts store.
>
>Cole Hersey is the manufacturer.
>
>Socket is 11041. Plug is 11042. Durable, lightweight and
>inexpensive. I have one on my beast.
>
Yes, the ground power connection article I published
goes to modifications of the 11041 socket to turn
the rear wire connection into a threaded stud as opposed
to a mash-n-squash termination.
Piper bought their parts from Cole-Hersee but I've
never seen how Piper (or others) have treated
the wire attachment.
Emacs!
A few years ago, I saw this style connector with a
threaded stud already supplied. Don't know who made
it and I've not been able to locate it in any
C-H literature . . .
But agreed . . . don't buy these parts from a Piper dealer.
By the way, C-H has a new catalog you can download
from:
http://tinyurl.com/opdey3
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 28V Contactors and Crowbar |
>
>Thanks for letting me know you have the 28V crowbar. What about a
>28V contactor? All I see are 12V at B&C.
>
>Thanks,
The 24v version of that contactor is available from
various sources, here's one:
http://tinyurl.com/oudonu
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Connecting a battery charger to a 2 battery system |
>Bob, that was exactly the kind of thing I was looking for - at the
>right price.
>
>I'm thinking that hooking a single smart charger to 2 batteries is a
>no-no. A 'dumb' trickle charger perhaps.
You can hook as many batteries in parallel as you
wish for charging from any source. The battery
charger doesn't know if you have one 34 a.h. battery
or two 17 a.h. batteries and doesn't care.
See: http://tinyurl.com/q6klx7
Smart chargers are ALWAYS the device of choice
for walk-away-and-forget-it maintenance of
rechargeable batteries.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Modifying the Piper plug |
At 01:08 PM 5/12/2009, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>
>In one of your links you posted here, there is a diagram for
>modifying the plug. It has several numerical references on the
>various steps and parts, but I can't find the text or reference
>guide to those numerical references.
>Could you please link or post?
>
>Thanks for being such a valuable resource.
I presume you're talking about this article:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
Can you be more specific as to what numbers
in text don't connect to numbers in figures?
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Connecting a battery charger to a 2 battery |
system
At 08:45 AM 5/12/2009, you wrote:
>
>I'm also very interested in learning how to design / craft a method
>for connecting a GPU to a 2 battery (Z-14) a/c. Experience has
>taught me that notwithstanding my excellent memory and scrupulous
>use of checklists that some gremlin inevitably sneaks into the
>cockpit and turns the master on, while I'm out enjoying myself at a
>distant airfield. If this happens at home field its less of an
>issue, but when it happens away, =-O . Anyone done this, or have
>some suggestions?
Active notification of low voltage (nice flashing
light on panel) for each system is a good hedge against
leaving the master switch on. Also, oil pressure
switches can be used to control both an hour-meter
(oil pressure up) and and low pressure light (engine
stopped). Wiring a small buzzer in parallel with the
light helps too once the engine is stopped.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Charger as Ground Power |
At 06:08 AM 5/12/2009, you wrote:
>i have 6 or 8 of these little chargers on all my toys. i have
>noticed on some some that the voltage was too low. i tried once to
>adjust the voltage but couldn't get anything to turn.i guess i will
>go back and try again to adjust the voltage on a couple that are too
>low. on the one that was too high i soldered a diode in line and
April 28, 2009 - May 13, 2009
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-iq