AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-is
May 30, 2009 - June 09, 2009
Also take a look at some of the other adapters available. You may want to
put a normal airplane earphone sized jack on your instrument panel so that
either your Walkman (with an adapter) or an airplane earphone set (without
adapter) may be plugged in.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
=====================================================
| From: | "Don McIntosh" <don(at)contractorsnorthwest.com> |
I want to install a plug in my panel to plug my stereo Walkman into but my
intercom
(PM1000 II) is mono. Can I just splice the Right and Left leads together
to go into the intercom? Also the intercom pins are labeled "HI" and "LOW".
Is
this just the pin identification numbers?
--------
Don McIntosh
Kitfox Series 7 under construction
Jabiru 3300
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Must-Have Tool Tip |
5/30/2009
Hello Matt, Thanks for your tool tip. Here is another tip that you can
distribute to the RV people if you will (I am not on their lists).
Where ever possible abandon those abominable Phillips drive machine screws.
Instead use Torx (six lobe) drive machine screws.
Every builder who has done this has thanked me profusely for the suggestion.
Torx drive inserts are readily available and with an electric cordless screw
driver are very quick and effective -- vastly superior to Phillips drive.
You can obtain Torx drive screws in a variety of sizes from Microfasteners.
See here:
http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSCFCMXS.cfm
(Note that these flat head screws have a true aviation use 100 degree
countersink angle, not the common hardware store 82 degree countersink
angle)
and here:
http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSCSBXS.cfm
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
PS: Thanks again Matt for making the Matronics lists available to us -- they
are of great value.
=============================================
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RV12-List: Must-Have Tool Tip...
Dear Listers,
I don't know, maybe everyone but me already knew about this little gem of a
tool,
but in case you missed it, I thought I share. If you don't have one of
these,
run - don't walk - down to your local Home Depot or Ace Hardware store and
get one! All of those #8 screws in the RVs are a giant pain to work in and
out
and some are just impossible to get to. I've been using this little guy on
the RV-8 project and can't image not having it now. The bendable shaft is
really
strong and you can bend the heck out of it without impacting the torque.
Its about $13 at Home Depot which is a great deal considering how handy it
is.
Here's a link to it on the Ace Hardware web page. I also attached a picture
of
mine attached to my Dewalt electric screw driver.
http://www.acehardware.com/sm-eazypower-flex-a-bit-plus-eazypower-flex-a-bit-plus--pi-2467822.html
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Engine mount as starter ground path |
| From: | "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net> |
Maybe Bob can address this point:
Bill might be able to use the 8awg wire separately. If the battery is grounded
to the airframe right next to itself, and the starter is grounded to the firewall,
then the starter is taken care of.
The forest of tabs is most likely common to that firewall ground mentioned above.
These would be used for grounding avionics, etc.
The 8awg wire he has already pulled (a long and difficult task in an RV-10) could
be used for an "always hot bus". Attach it to the battery in back, and put
a fuse block at the panel end. One wire instead of a handful of small ones. He
can then pull out the small wires to be used elsewhere. He probably already has
the fuse block for the hot bus next to the battery - just move it. No waste
of 8awg wire. Just a suggestion, but I like it so much, I might do it myself.
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit started.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246031#246031
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | AECr12 goes to press . . . |
The long promised reprint of the AeroElectric Connection,
revision 12 went to press yesterday. The long delay was
unfortunate but economically worthwhile. I've located
a print shop that not only offered an attractive price
but is reasonable driving distance away so that I can
pick the order up and avoid freight charges on about
3,000 pounds of paper!
I'm supposed to have proofs early next week and assuming
no big gottchas are identified, books to ship about 3
weeks after that. We're printing 2000 books . . . twice
that of our usual print-run.
R13 should be another milestone in 'Connection history.
I've purchased a suite of desktop publishing software
and will being molding 20 years and 4 different word
processor outputs into a single, cohesive, print-ready file.
I'm planning on several new chapters in addition to complete
review of all existing work. This issue is 304 pages,
the next will probably be 335 or so.
My thanks to those who helped me comb the worst of
the errors out of the latest changes.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine mount as starter ground path |
At 10:06 AM 5/30/2009, you wrote:
>
>
>Maybe Bob can address this point:
>
>Bill might be able to use the 8awg wire separately. If the battery
>is grounded to the airframe right next to itself, and the starter is
>grounded to the firewall, then the starter is taken care of.
>
>The forest of tabs is most likely common to that firewall ground
>mentioned above. These would be used for grounding avionics, etc.
>
>The 8awg wire he has already pulled (a long and difficult task in an
>RV-10) could be used for an "always hot bus". Attach it to the
>battery in back, and put a fuse block at the panel end.
Remotely mounting an always-hot bus is not
recommended. Legacy crash safety conventions
make this simply another remote bus that is
worthy of a battery contactor . . . not ulike
the robust e-bus feeder described in the Z-figures.
> One wire instead of a handful of small ones. He can then pull out
> the small wires to be used elsewhere. He probably already has the
> fuse block for the hot bus next to the battery - just move it. No
> waste of 8awg wire. Just a suggestion, but I like it so much, I
> might do it myself.
>
>John
I've been noodling through some recommendations
for the rear-battery configuration of the RV10.
I'm packed up to head out for M.L. right now so
I don't have time to elaborate.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Paul Millner [OAK]" <paulmillner(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Bonding for Fueling |
>> how does one get lineboys trained that the engine exhaust pipe is a
terrible place for ground wire
Remember, it's not at all important to GROUND an aircraft for fueling.
What *is* important is to BOND the aircraft to the fuel source, so that
static charges created by the dielectric fluid called gasoline moving
through the fueling equipment don't result in a spark at the nozzle.
And... what Bob said about the size of the currents involved.
Call it bonding, not grounding.
Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | thomas sargent <sarg314(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | sky-tec starter wiring |
Sky-Tec advises against the use of a starter relay, while Bob K.
advocates the use of one (for good reason, as I recall). I have a
separate starter relay in my plane. A couple years ago the Sky-Tec
website had an example schematic for hooking up one of their starters
with a separate starter relay. I had a copy of that, but now I can't
find it and they seem to have removed it from their website.
I believe it showed a jumper between the large +12v terminal and the
small terminal on the starter. Does any one have a copy of that
schematic?
Thanks,
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A, final assembly.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andrew Butler <andrewbutler(at)ireland.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 12V Power Socket |
Thanks to all for the great replies. No worries now!
Andrew.
RV7 (firewall forward and wiring)
EI-EEO (just received!)
Galway, Ireland.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May, 2009 5:15:22 PM GMT +00:00 GMT Britain, Ireland, Portugal
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 12V Power Socket
It depends on what you want to accomplish. If you wire it to the buss side
of the master you can power your panel from it during the build. But if you
wire it to the battery side of the master you can power accessories or
trickle charge the battery without turning on the master. There are pluses &
minuses both ways. Think it through and decide what's best for you.
Regards,
Greg Young
> -----Original Message-----
> ground. You should wire the scocket to powerthe panel with
> out turning the master on.
> I have mine that way so I can play with the panel with out
> using the aircraft battery. I have a little cpmpressor /
> battery unit that I take to the hanger and keeps the tires
> up and lets me run my glass panel for setting up a trip etc.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bonding for Fueling |
Sorry I missed this thread: why is the exhaust pipe a bad place to connect
the bonding cable to
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Millner [OAK]" <paulmillner(at)compuserve.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 3:25 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bonding for Fueling
>
>
> >> how does one get lineboys trained that the engine exhaust pipe is a
> terrible place for ground wire
>
> Remember, it's not at all important to GROUND an aircraft for fueling.
> What *is* important is to BOND the aircraft to the fuel source, so that
> static charges created by the dielectric fluid called gasoline moving
> through the fueling equipment don't result in a spark at the nozzle.
>
> And... what Bob said about the size of the currents involved.
>
> Call it bonding, not grounding.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> |
| Subject: | Garmin GA 56 GPS Antenna Aerial |
Hi
Is it OK to use the Garmin GA 56 GPS Antenna Aerial as a permament
fixture for the Garmin range of hand (although panel mounted-AirGizmo)
held Garmin GPS
Regards
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Bonding for Fueling |
Sorry I missed this thread: why is the exhaust pipe a bad place to
connect
the bonding cable to
John
IT'S NOT! Some listers, who don't understand, seem to feel that you
need a
low resistance path all the way from the fuel tank to the bonding point.
In
reality, the static charge is of high voltage and low energy, thus it
will
bleed off very quickly through a high impedance path, i.e. Through rusty
exhaust connections etc. So, the exhaust pipe is a good bonding point.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Lightweight Aux Battery? |
| From: | "sonex293" <sonex293(at)gmail.com> |
Does anyone have a good alternative lightweight Aux Battery? I'm looking for something
12V 10Ah capacity for emergency EFI powering. I've already got a "fat"
airplane, so would like to keep the weight down if possible. Power requirements
are calculated @ 8 amps. NiMH and LiFePO offer significant weight reduction
at an increase in cost. I haven't found a good way to keep the battery's
charged or a simple fall-over incase of main power failure.
Any Ideas?
Michael
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246142#246142
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Gill" <wgill10(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | sky-tec starter wiring |
Try: http://www.skytecair.com/Wiring_Diag.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
thomas sargent
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 10:46 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: sky-tec starter wiring
Sky-Tec advises against the use of a starter relay, while Bob K.
advocates the use of one (for good reason, as I recall). I have a
separate starter relay in my plane. A couple years ago the Sky-Tec
website had an example schematic for hooking up one of their starters
with a separate starter relay. I had a copy of that, but now I can't
find it and they seem to have removed it from their website.
I believe it showed a jumper between the large +12v terminal and the
small terminal on the starter. Does any one have a copy of that
schematic?
Thanks,
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A, final assembly.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | thomas sargent <sarg314(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: sky-tec starter wiring |
William:
I followed the link back to sky-tec (yet again) and this time I found
what I was looking for. Thanks for making me look again. Seems my
current wiring set-up matches their "certified" diagram, tht is, the
diagram for planes with a starter contactor.
On May 31, 2009, at 9:40 AM, William Gill wrote:
> >
>
> Try: http://www.skytecair.com/Wiring_Diag.htm
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Rotax 912ULS voltage . . . |
Bob,
Here is another twist in the strange continuing low voltage problem saga in
my Rotax 912 / Figure Z16-designed electrical system.
I purchased and installed a new Rotax voltage regulator (called a
regulator/rectifier by Rotax), which provided identical low voltage results.
Just as I was getting ready to return the "defective" regulator I accidently
switched on the endurance bus and, what do you know, the voltage shot up
from 12.9V to 13.8V (as measured through my Dynon glass cockpit and Lowrance
GPS instruments). While still a little low, I can certainly live with 13.8V
under normal working load since this should adequately charge my battery.
Ok, so now it looks like there is something wrong in the Z16 electrical
configuration. I'd rather not leave my endurance buss on all the time
(although I don't think this would hurt anything??) so I would like to fix
the issue. I suspect the problem is associated with the diode that attaches
the two busses shown under "Note 12" on your Z16 diagram. Do you concur? Do
you think I should change this diode, do further testing, or should I look
elsewhere for the problem? The my diode came with a heatsink from B&C. If I
need a new one, and you make them, I need one ASAP since I plan a 1000-mile
trip next weekend.
Thank you again for your help.
Les Goldner
510-549-1622
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 3:46 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Rotax 912ULS voltage . . .
At 12:38 AM 5/26/2009, you wrote:
Thank you for the information Bob.
I am trying to trouble shoot my low voltage problem to determine its
cause (i.e.; the regulator, wiring, or the internal engine
alternator) so I can take corrective action.
There is nothing in the Rotax 912 manuals to assist in doing this. I
checked the internal engine coil resistance reading and found it to
be .7-ohms. The DC voltage at the regulator is the same previously
reported (still under 13-volts). Finally I measured AC voltage coming
from the coils. The voltage varied as follows:
Idle (1900-RPM) was 12.8 volts
2500-RPM was 16.0 v
3000-RPM was 19.0 v
4000-RPM was 24.5 v
cruse(5000-RPM)was not measured.
Bob, Am I correct to think that the AC voltage looks adequate and the
problem is likely a faulty Rotax voltage regulator?
Thanks again for your help.
If you have ANY voltage from the alternator's output winding
at any speed, and the winding is not shorted to ground (very
unlikely) then the alternator is fine. Rotax PM alternators are
exceedingly simple, rugged and reliable. I'm not aware of any
failures.
The Ducati rectifier/regulator supplied with these engines
is another matter. They are of marginal thermal design and
sadly lacking in adjustability. Two conditions VERY
easy to fix if anyone with responsibility for the product
cared.
Unfortunately, replacing it with an identical OEM R/R has
a high probability of installing a similar problem right
out of the box. I've heard that John Deere has a single
phase, PM alternator regulator that is rated for up to
35 amps. Goto http://matronics.com/search
Search the AeroElectric List for AM101406 and you'll
get several hits by folks who discussed it some time
back.
Here are some after-market clones . . .
http://www.watercraftstarter.com/Lawn%20Garden/Regulator%20Rectifier/?nocach
e=1
http://www.amazon.com/Replacement-Voltage-Regulator-Deere-AM101406/dp/B00169
H3E0
I don't see a voltage adjustment mentioned or
shown . . . unfortunate but perhaps understandable.
Most of these regulators are used on small tractors
and most users are not skilled in the use of such
features.
Wish I had my alternator drive stand running. Building
a 'real' PM r/r for aircraft is not a big task . . .
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: sky-tec starter wiring |
At 10:46 PM 5/30/2009, you wrote:
>
>Sky-Tec advises against the use of a starter relay, while Bob K.
>advocates the use of one (for good reason, as I recall). I have a
>separate starter relay in my plane. A couple years ago the Sky-Tec
>website had an example schematic for hooking up one of their starters
>with a separate starter relay. I had a copy of that, but now I can't
>find it and they seem to have removed it from their website.
>
>I believe it showed a jumper between the large +12v terminal and the
>small terminal on the starter. Does any one have a copy of that
>schematic?
Not so long ago in a galaxy very close by,
the first made-for-aircraft light weight starters
were offered by B&C in Newton, KS. The crafters
of design goals and system integrators of those
products were cognizant of the extra-ordinary
performance of the electrical control contactor/
pinion engagement solenoid . . . but at a price.
See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strtctr.pdf
The inductive, high engagement current of
these devices was higher than any contemporary
starter control switches were designed to handle.
Indeed, a number of automobile starter switch
contacts were ill-designed to stroke these
little beasts.
Further, part of the anticipated market for these
starters included type certificated machines that
were already fitted with intermittent duty,
starter contactors.
The marketing philosophy adopted for the B&C
starters was to tie the solenoid coil terminal
to the starter contactor's fat terminal as
depicted in Figure 6 of the paper cited above.
This philosophy mitigated the need for extra-
husky starter switches -AND- offer a drop-in
replacement for TC aircraft starters without
modification of ship's wiring.
Then came competing designs with permanent
magnet motors. Attempts to wire these starters
in the same manner produced a delayed retraction
of the starter pinion gear after the start
button was released. This was a byproduct
of voltage GENERATED by the PM motors as they
spun down. This "counter emf" held the pinion
gear engaged for several seconds.
The PM motor product designer's recommendation
was to wire it just like in cars . . . but they
either overlooked or ignored the inrush current
demands described in the article cited above.
The AEC work-around was to add a starter
control "boost relay" as depicted in Figure Z-22
which isolates the panel mounted start switch
from the extra-ordinary demands of the starter
solenoid/contactor combination.
See also Figures Z-22 notes on page Z-5
of
http://aeroelectric.com/R12A/AppZ_12A3.pdf
So. Your options are (1) wire per the manufacturer's
instructions and select a starter control push-button
or switch suited to the task (don't forget the arc-suppression
diode) or (2) wire per Z-22.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lightweight Aux Battery? |
At 09:37 AM 5/31/2009, you wrote:
>
>Does anyone have a good alternative lightweight Aux Battery? I'm
>looking for something 12V 10Ah capacity for emergency EFI
>powering. I've already got a "fat" airplane, so would like to keep
>the weight down if possible. Power requirements are calculated @ 8
>amps. NiMH and LiFePO offer significant weight reduction at an
>increase in cost. I haven't found a good way to keep the battery's
>charged or a simple fall-over incase of main power failure.
What engine are you using . . . and which
(if any) Z-figure?
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Bendix 10-357210-1 Ignition switch |
| From: | "Thruster87" <alania(at)optusnet.com.au> |
Bought a rotary ignition switch and would like to know which terminal goes to what
on a Jabiru 3300 engine.Terminals marked R,L LR,BO,Batt ,S and G. L= left
mag,R= right mag G= ground.Don't know where to connect the rest [Bendix 10-357210-1
Ignition switch key OFF,L,R,Both and twist to start] Any help would be
appreciated. Cheers T87
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246250#246250
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com |
| Subject: | Re: Stereo to Mono |
I would not use a stereo to mono jack to go FROM stereo to MONO. It really
is made
for going from mono to drive a stereo headphone, split to drive both L & R
channels.
It is not designed to combine stereo to mono.
-
Whats the big deal? Shorting L & R of an amp can cause damage, even-an iP
od. If the
"Walkman" has a mono switch than its OK, but-iPods do not have mono switc
hes.
-
If you don't have a MP3 player (iPod) get one. Walkman are last decades new
s. If you
don't have an iPod you can get 100's of hours of music on them with play ti
me of 6 hours
per charge. They are also small and light weight.
-
There are some threads on how to properly combine stereo and ground issues
in this
forum. Just use the search engine. The easy way is with capacitor and resis
tor, which
you can wire behind the panel. You would use a stereo 1/8" phone jack and t
hen
go from stereo to mono with the isolation Cap and Resistor.
-
Cheers George
-
-
>From: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Stereo to Mono
>
>5/30/2009
>Hello Don, You wrote: "I want to install a plug in my panel to plug my
>stereo Walkman into but my intercom (PM1000 II) is mono."
>Here is one way to solve that problem --
-
>http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102669
-
>This adapter will put the output of a mono jack on your panel into both
>sides of your stereo Walkman.
-
>Also take a look at some of the other adapters available. You may want to
>put a normal airplane earphone sized jack on your instrument panel so that
>either your Walkman (with an adapter) or an airplane earphone set (without
>adapter) may be plugged in.
>
>========================
===
>>
>>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Stereo to Mono
>>From: "Don McIntosh" <don(at)contractorsnorthwest.com>
>>
>>I want to install a plug in my panel to plug my stereo Walkman into but m
y
>>intercom (PM1000 II) is mono. Can I just splice the Right and Left leads
together
>>to go into the intercom? Also the intercom pins are labeled "HI" and "LOW
".
>>Is this just the pin identification numbers?
>>--------
>>Don McIntosh
>>Kitfox Series 7 under construction
>>Jabiru 3300 =0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Bendix 10-357210-1 Ignition switch |
6/1/2009
Hello Thruster87, You wrote: "Bought a rotary ignition switch and would like
to know ......"
Another one of the advantages of using two toggle switches for this purpose
instead of the unreliable rotary switch is to avoid fumbling around with the
confusing wiring required.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
==============================================
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bendix 10-357210-1 Ignition switch
From: "Thruster87" <alania(at)optusnet.com.au>
Bought a rotary ignition switch and would like to know which terminal goes
to what
on a Jabiru 3300 engine.Terminals marked R,L LR,BO,Batt ,S and G. L= left
mag,R= right mag G= ground.Don't know where to connect the rest [Bendix
10-357210-1
Ignition switch key OFF,L,R,Both and twist to start] Any help would be
appreciated. Cheers T87
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Hanaway" <tomhanaway(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine mount as starter ground path |
Bob,
The basis of my design is Z-14. Dual Odyssey 680 batteries aft with
cross-feed contactor (using one for startup and one for avionics during
starting-then switching avionics over to primary battery after
running-both
batteries available if necessary for starting)) but only one alternator
(option to add second alternator later depending on upcoming plane power
product). Diode inline allows alternator feed to one or both batteries.
Batteries really both need to be aft due to engine weight
considerations.
So... is grounding both batteries at a common point aft in metal plane a
viable solution?
I note that you made reference to working on some info specific to the
RV-10. That would be great.
Thanks,
Tom
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 9:02 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Engine mount as starter ground path
At 07:34 PM 5/28/2009, you wrote:
Thanks Bob.
Sorry to beat a dead horse but I need one more clarification. Your
response
mentions =13if battery near firewall=14. The batteries are actually
both in the
aft area. Can the battery be locally grounded to airframe at site of
battery (metal frame craft) with B&C tab forest on firewall for grounds
and
engine ground?
Or is best solution still to run a 2awg ground wire up to firewall and
proceed with grounding to tab forest as above?
Thanks,
Tom
_____
You say "both batteries". Which Z-figure are
you crafting?
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Shankland <tshankland(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: sky-tec starter wiring |
I have been following this thread with some interest as in been there
done that. My Stratus Suburu setup required an automotive type switch,
ignition, close for run. After a search for a compact simple switch I
turned to one of my trusted sources, John Deere. Yes they had a compact
ignition switch with starter function for a good price. Flash ahead a
year or so, during my 40 hour test phase I was getting intermittent
failures to engage especially when the engine was hot, you know you fly
to the airport and then go to leave and it does want to start. Well I
tracked it down to an excessive voltage drop across the switch. So off
to the John Deere dealer for a new one. Talking to the dealer about my
problem I found that they had the same problem on many of their tractors
and John Deere had a fix. A nice tab mount relay suitable to mount on
the starter that reduced the current load such that even the old switch
works. I was able to make the entire change under the cowling by the
starter and didn't have to get in to the instrument panel at all. John
Deere come through again, after all that is where I get my oil filters.
Tim Shankland
thomas sargent wrote:
>
>
> William:
> I followed the link back to sky-tec (yet again) and this time I
> found what I was looking for. Thanks for making me look again.
> Seems my current wiring set-up matches their "certified" diagram, tht
> is, the diagram for planes with a starter contactor.
>
> On May 31, 2009, at 9:40 AM, William Gill wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Try: http://www.skytecair.com/Wiring_Diag.htm
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: sky-tec starter wiring |
At 07:40 AM 6/1/2009, you wrote:
I have been following this thread with some interest as in been there
done that. My Stratus Suburu setup required an automotive type
switch, ignition, close for run. After a search for a compact simple
switch I turned to one of my trusted sources, John Deere. Yes they
had a compact ignition switch with starter function for a good price.
Flash ahead a year or so, during my 40 hour test phase I was getting
intermittent failures to engage especially when the engine was hot,
you know you fly to the airport and then go to leave and it does want
to start. Well I tracked it down to an excessive voltage drop across
the switch. So off to the John Deere dealer for a new one. Talking to
the dealer about my problem I found that they had the same problem on
many of their tractors and John Deere had a fix. A nice tab mount
relay suitable to mount on the starter that reduced the current load
such that even the old switch works.
My first encounter with the extra-ordinary demands
of the modern two-step starter engagement solenoids
was on one of my employees cars at Vidimation about
17 years ago. It was a Japanese car as I recall . . .
it was experiencing intermittent responses to twisting
the key switch to the START position.
He pulled the switch in our shop and we discovered
bare brass, sliding (read low pressure, slow moving)
contacts for the start function were all burned up.
The car had about 60K miles on it.
A new switch fixed the problem . . . no doubt for
perhaps another 60K miles? I'd didn't take
time to dissect the physics behind the phenomenon
then. But it looks like the "boost" relay fix
has occurred to more than one individual seeking
an alternative recipe for success.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
| Subject: | sky-tec starter wiring |
This brings up an issue that has been beaten around a lot...Especially by myself
in the past.
On your Stratus you should have two ignition systems and I dearly hope you are
not running the feed for both ignitions through that single key switch because
the key switch is a single point of faiure.
The two ignitions should be treated as totally separate entities, that means a
separate fused circuit, separate swicthing and wiring..I.e no single component
failing should stop the engine running.
I know Cessna's use a separate two postion switch but the get away this because
the switch is a fail safe device..i.e if continuity stops the engine continues
to run...But even then I avoided this route on my current airplane.
Cheers
Frank
Stratus 601 zenair
RV7a
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 6:30 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: sky-tec starter wiring
-->
At 07:40 AM 6/1/2009, you wrote:
I have been following this thread with some interest as in been there
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Shankland <tshankland(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: sky-tec starter wiring |
Frank,
My electrical system consists of two batteries and two independent
buses, A & B. All power connections are through center off single pole
double throw switches. Thus I can run any part of my system on either
bus of my choosing or all on one bus. The primary ignition circuit,
which feeds the ignition switch goes through one of these switches,
normally set to bus A. The secondary ignition, fuel pump and starter are
all fed by single rocker switches. By the way I have a guard over the
primary ignition rocker switch so as not to inadvertently turn if off
during some switching. This allows me to start my plane like a car, turn
on Bus A turn the key and your running. It also allows me to separate
noisy devices like strobes on one bus and the radio on the other. I also
have a relay that connects both batteries for starting.
Tim Shankland
Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
>
>This brings up an issue that has been beaten around a lot...Especially by myself
in the past.
>
>On your Stratus you should have two ignition systems and I dearly hope you are
not running the feed for both ignitions through that single key switch because
the key switch is a single point of faiure.
>
>The two ignitions should be treated as totally separate entities, that means a
separate fused circuit, separate swicthing and wiring..I.e no single component
failing should stop the engine running.
>
>I know Cessna's use a separate two postion switch but the get away this because
the switch is a fail safe device..i.e if continuity stops the engine continues
to run...But even then I avoided this route on my current airplane.
>
>Cheers
>
>Frank
>Stratus 601 zenair
>RV7a
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
>Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 6:30 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: sky-tec starter wiring
>
>-->
>
>At 07:40 AM 6/1/2009, you wrote:
>
>
>I have been following this thread with some interest as in been there
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Lightweight Aux Battery? |
| From: | "sonex293" <sonex293(at)gmail.com> |
Bob,
This will be on an existing Jabiru 3300 installation using the Z-20 wiring .
--
Michael Crowder
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246319#246319
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bendix 10-357210-1 Ignition switch |
At 11:47 PM 5/31/2009, you wrote:
>
>Bought a rotary ignition switch and would like to know which
>terminal goes to what on a Jabiru 3300 engine.Terminals marked R,L
>LR,BO,Batt ,S and G. L= left mag,R= right mag G= ground.Don't know
>where to connect the rest [Bendix 10-357210-1 Ignition switch key
>OFF,L,R,Both and twist to start] Any help would be appreciated. Cheers T87
Unless you have a shower-of-sparks ignition system,
you don't need BO. If the engine doesn't require
starting on one ignition only, you don't use the LR
terminal either.
See Figure Z-26 at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z26K_27K.pdf
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bendix 10-357210-1 Ignition switch |
| From: | "Thruster87" <alania(at)optusnet.com.au> |
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> At 11:47 PM 5/31/2009, you wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Bought a rotary ignition switch and would like to know which
> > terminal goes to what on a Jabiru 3300 engine.Terminals marked R,L
> > LR,BO,Batt ,S and G. L= left mag,R= right mag G= ground.Don't know
> > where to connect the rest [Bendix 10-357210-1 Ignition switch key
> > OFF,L,R,Both and twist to start] Any help would be appreciated. Cheers T87
> > Unless you have a shower-of-sparks ignition system,
> >
>
> you don't need BO. If the engine doesn't require
> starting on one ignition only, you don't use the LR
> terminal either.
>
>
> See Figure Z-26 at:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z26K_27K.pdf
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------)
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ----------------------------------------
Much appreciated Cheers T87
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246407#246407
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Rotax 912ULS voltage . . . |
At 02:18 PM 5/31/2009, you wrote:
><lgold@quantum-associates.com>
>
>Bob,
>Here is another twist in the strange continuing low voltage problem saga in
>my Rotax 912 / Figure Z16-designed electrical system.
>I purchased and installed a new Rotax voltage regulator (called a
>regulator/rectifier by Rotax), which provided identical low voltage results.
>Just as I was getting ready to return the "defective" regulator I accidently
>switched on the endurance bus and, what do you know, the voltage shot up
>from 12.9V to 13.8V (as measured through my Dynon glass cockpit and Lowrance
>GPS instruments). While still a little low, I can certainly live with 13.8V
>under normal working load since this should adequately charge my battery.
>Ok, so now it looks like there is something wrong in the Z16 electrical
>configuration. I'd rather not leave my endurance buss on all the time
>(although I don't think this would hurt anything??) so I would like to fix
>the issue. I suspect the problem is associated with the diode that attaches
>the two busses shown under "Note 12" on your Z16 diagram. Do you concur? Do
>you think I should change this diode, do further testing, or should I look
>elsewhere for the problem? The my diode came with a heatsink from B&C. If I
>need a new one, and you make them, I need one ASAP since I plan a 1000-mile
>trip next weekend.
Nothing needs "fixing". For the purposes of knowing
your alternator's setpoint voltage, you're measuring
the system voltage at the wrong place. Yes, the e-bus
is KNOWN to run about 0.7 volts lower than the main
bus and it doesn't matter. When a voltmeter is fed
from the E-bus, it becomes something of an electrical
fuel gage for battery-only operations. When you're
down to 11.0 volts battery only, the battery is 95%
used up. If you want to use this voltmeter to check
the main bus . . . then you momentarily close the
alternate feed switch as you've discovered.
13.8 is still pretty low for charging a battery but
if you're going on a trip and will spend hours per
flight cycle at cruise RPM then 13.8 will get you by.
The system is working as designed. You can either
mentally add the 0.7 volts of known diode-drop or
do your low voltage and/or voltage display sensing
from the main bus. Any LV Warning should ALWAYS be
driven by the main bus when such systems are installed.
I'd say you are good to go on your trip.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | grounding to fuselage |
| From: | thomas sargent <sarg314(at)gmail.com> |
In general I am opposed to running current thru the fuselage, but in the
case of the white tail light, I am willing to make an exception. Is there
any "approved" way of doing this so as to avoid causing corrosion due to the
contact of dissimilar metals? Is a tin plated (it is tin isn't it?) ring
terminal against bare aluminum going to cause a problem? Should it be
covered/sprayed with something to protect it from moisture? Or is this just
a bad idea under any circumstances?
Thanks,
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A final assembly.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: grounding to fuselage |
At 08:48 AM 6/2/2009, you wrote:
>In general I am opposed to running current thru the fuselage, but in
>the case of the white tail light, I am willing to make an
>exception. Is there any "approved" way of doing this so as to avoid
>causing corrosion due to the contact of dissimilar metals?
> Is a tin plated (it is tin isn't it?) ring terminal against bare
> aluminum going to cause a problem? Should it be covered/sprayed
> with something to protect it from moisture? Or is this just a bad
> idea under any circumstances?
Local concerns for the attachment of wires to
the airframe have been the topic of many pages
of "how to" and "how not" to do. In the
most hostile of environments, all the recommended
processes and materials add longevity to
the connection.
Our airplanes are seldom operated in conditions
that qualify as strenuous much less hostile.
Design goals for local grounding/bonding
speak to deleterious effects for failure to
faithfully observe recipes for success but they
seldom speak to the physics of the effects or
relative risks.
Keep in mind that for corrosion to occur, oxygen
laden moisture must be present in the joint.
Only then do the electrolytic effects of
dissimilar metals in ionized solutions
arise.
Yes, the tin plating of copper terminals #1
task is an electrolytic "buffer" between copper
and aluminum . . . but if you damage the tin
layer in any way during assembly or maintenance
of the joint, that barrier is breached and
the original copper-aluminum couple is exposed.
For all the fuss and froth about materials
control, the very best prophylactic against
corrosion call for making joints up with sufficient
pressure to produce "gas-tightness" enhanced
with a means by which future moisture ingress
is retarded assuages 99.99% of your concerns.
Join clean metals with robust, locking fasteners.
Coat the metals with silicon grease before joining.
And the joint will be fine for more than the
lifetime of airplane. You can "drink from the
fire hose" off grounding/bonding processes
in section 15 of AC43-13 offers a rigorous study.
There's nothing inherently evil about using the
airframe to carry power system currents. Modern
production aircraft made of aluminum have
countless airframe grounds crafted with due
diligence to the principals of gas-tightness
and choice of materials. These function as
desired for the lifetime of the airplane.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Vern Little" <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net> |
| Subject: | Re: grounding to fuselage |
AC43.13-1B has an extensive discussion of aircraft bonding (grounding),
including the proper procedure for connecting to the airframe and
protection against corrosion.
This document is available in .pdf format if you don't have a hardcopy.
It's a bit large to email, so if you can find it online for download,
that's good.
If not, please let me know and I'll make other arrangements.
Thanks,
Vern Little
www.vx-aviation.com
----- Original Message -----
From: thomas sargent
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 6:48 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: grounding to fuselage
In general I am opposed to running current thru the fuselage, but in
the case of the white tail light, I am willing to make an exception. Is
there any "approved" way of doing this so as to avoid causing corrosion
due to the contact of dissimilar metals? Is a tin plated (it is tin
isn't it?) ring terminal against bare aluminum going to cause a problem?
Should it be covered/sprayed with something to protect it from
moisture? Or is this just a bad idea under any circumstances?
Thanks,
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A final assembly.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: grounding to fuselage |
At 10:50 AM 6/2/2009, you wrote:
>AC43.13-1B has an extensive discussion of aircraft bonding
>(grounding), including the proper procedure for connecting to the
>airframe and protection against corrosion.
>
>This document is available in .pdf format if you don't have a
>hardcopy. It's a bit large to email, so if you can find it online
>for download, that's good.
>
>If not, please let me know and I'll make other arrangements.
AC43-13 is available for download at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/FAA/
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
-----------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine mount as starter ground path |
At 07:00 AM 6/1/2009, you wrote:
>Bob,
>The basis of my design is Z-14. Dual Odyssey 680 batteries aft with
>cross-feed contactor (using one for startup and one for avionics
>during starting-then switching avionics over to primary battery
>after running-both batteries available if necessary for starting))
>but only one alternator (option to add second alternator later
>depending on upcoming plane power product).
okay
>Diode inline allows alternator feed to one or both batteries.
why diodes? close all the contactors and both
batteries get charged by one alternator.
>
>Batteries really both need to be aft due to engine weight considerations.
>So... is grounding both batteries at a common point aft in metal
>plane a viable solution?
Sure. Here's some exemplar battery grounds to
airframe:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Batteries/Battery_Install_OBrien_1.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Batteries/Battery_Install_OBrien_2.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Batteries/Battery_Install_OBrien_3.jpg
>I note that you made reference to working on some info specific to
>the RV-10. That would be great.
Since the forest of tabs is on thin stainless
(very poor conductor) it would be a good thing
to put a 4 or 2AWG jumper from ground stud to
similar structure as in photos above.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lightweight Aux Battery? |
At 01:26 PM 6/1/2009, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>
>This will be on an existing Jabiru 3300 installation using the Z-20 wiring .
Hmmm . . . what are the anticipated loads and
duration for the aux battery? In other words, how
does the aux battery fit into your recipe for plan-b
success?
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Lightweight Aux Battery? |
| From: | "sonex293" <sonex293(at)gmail.com> |
sonex293 wrote:
> Power requirements are calculated @ 8 amps.
This would include Fuel Pump, Injectors, and EFI Controller. I was looking for
a one hour run time.
--
Michael
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246526#246526
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lightweight Aux Battery? |
At 06:15 PM 6/2/2009, you wrote:
>
>
>sonex293 wrote:
> > Power requirements are calculated @ 8 amps.
>
>
>This would include Fuel Pump, Injectors, and EFI Controller. I was
>looking for a one hour run time.
How big is your planned main battery and
what feature of its selection and installation
suggests that you can't get what you need
out of the main battery?
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Lightweight Aux Battery? |
| From: | "sonex293" <sonex293(at)gmail.com> |
I'm currently flying with a Odyssey PC625 battery, which has a 16Ah capacity.
I'm also currently flying behind an engine/carb/magneto combo that has no fuel
pumps, so even in the event of full electrical/battery failure the engine will
keep running.
By switching to an endurance buss my current draw with the new fuel injection system
would be around 14-16 amps, I don't think the PC625 can provide 16amps
for an hour in the case of charging problems.
What do you think?
--
Michael
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246537#246537
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lightweight Aux Battery? |
At 07:57 PM 6/2/2009, you wrote:
>
>I'm currently flying with a Odyssey PC625 battery, which has a 16Ah
>capacity.
>
>I'm also currently flying behind an engine/carb/magneto combo that
>has no fuel pumps, so even in the event of full electrical/battery
>failure the engine will keep running.
>
>By switching to an endurance buss my current draw with the new fuel
>injection system would be around 14-16 amps, I don't think the
>PC625 can provide 16amps for an hour in the case of charging problems.
>
>What do you think?
Hmmmm . . . how much STUFF have you shoe-horned into
this neat little airplane that needs that much snort?
Your alternator is probably a PM machine so if you've
got a robust rectifier/regulator, loss of engine
driven power is rare. But assuming you do need to
go battery only, what situation do you anticipate
that you cannot get from where you are to where you
need to be using the ultimate battery-only comm/nav/
lighting system . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Vacination_for_Dark_Panel_Syndrom.pdf
Also, those numbers seem high for a small engine.
Have you ever seen real energy numbers from somebody
who has one of these systems flying?
I hate to see you carry around any more weight than
is REALLY useful. I've been pondering a li-ion battery/
automatic charter pack for OBAM aircraft. It will be
the very lightest of batteries for all services other
than engine cranking . . . i.e. AUX service. But it's
weight, volume and price is not zero or even really
attractive for airplanes like yours. I'd like to explore
all the plan-A, plan-B options available to you before
you start adding the $time$, $cost$, $weight$ of an
additional or larger battery.
Oh yeah, consider making your existing battery
BIGGER before adding a second battery. But let's
talk . . .
Who sells your power plant package? Let's get some
real running numbers from them.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lightweight Aux Battery? |
P.S. What's the driver for switching to the ECFI engine
package? Does fuel efficiency go up so much that the
additional complexity, power requirements and cost look
like an attractive alternative?
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Jabiru 3300 starter |
| From: | jaybannist(at)cs.com |
I am helping a friend put together a power schematic for a Jabiru 3300.? I have
seen several sample schematics that have both a starter solenoid and a starter
contactor.? Is this really what is required and if so why ?? Is a starter contactor
any different than a battery contactor?
Jay Bannister
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <peter(at)eedy.id.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Lightweight Aux =?UTF-8?Q?Battery=3F? |
Hi Michael
What sort of upgrade do you have planned for your 3300?
Enquiring minds, thinking likewise, would like to know?
All the best.
Peter Eedy
Waiex 109 - 50% there.
Newcastle. NSW. Australia.
>
>
> sonex293 wrote:
>> Power requirements are calculated @ 8 amps.
>
>
> This would include Fuel Pump, Injectors, and EFI Controller. I was
looking
> for a one hour run time.
>
> --
> Michael
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: grounding to fuselage |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
I suppose you could "get away with it" to use the airframe for grounding. But remember
that the "ground" connection does EXACTLY the same thing as the positive
conductor but backwards.
Wiring a tail light might be fine, but wiring the ground on a MAC/RAC trim box
will almost certainly cause a noisy bar graph indicator, and the desire to keep
down the loop resistance can be frustrated, and change with age. If you just
can't stop yourself, then at least don't use the airframe or tubes as a high
current ground for engine starting.
A customer of mine has an automobile built of steel. It has a battery in the trunk
and requires an additional ground conductor--or the engine won't start. Hmmmm.......
"When facing a decision, ask yourself: what would I do if I wasn't afraid?"
Russ Reeves
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246583#246583
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: grounding to fuselage |
At 07:54 AM 6/3/2009, you wrote:
>
>I suppose you could "get away with it" to use the airframe for
>grounding. But remember that the "ground" connection does EXACTLY
>the same thing as the positive conductor but backwards.
>
>Wiring a tail light might be fine, but wiring the ground on a
>MAC/RAC trim box will almost certainly cause a noisy bar graph
>indicator, and the desire to keep down the loop resistance can be
>frustrated, and change with age. If you just can't stop yourself,
>then at least don't use the airframe or tubes as a high current
>ground for engine starting.
>
>A customer of mine has an automobile built of steel. It has a
>battery in the trunk and requires an additional ground conductor--or
>the engine won't start. Hmmmm.......
All of which goes to the system integration task
of deducing which devices are potential antagonists
(can be grounded about anywhere) and potential victims
(demand attention to wiring to avoid ground loop injection
of noise).
It's not a matter of "getting away with it". This
phraseology suggests an air of uncertainty or risk
for using the airframe as a ground. When accomplished
with a bit of study and understanding, then there is no
uncertainty, no risk and no wishful thinking for
"getting away with" anything.
>"When facing a decision, ask yourself: what would I do if I wasn't afraid?"
Perhaps the better question is: "What do I need to understand to
mitigate my unfounded fear?"
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: grounding to fuselage |
| From: | Mike Fontenot <mikef(at)apexconsultingservices.com> |
Maybe it should be "ungrounded fear".....
On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 7:30 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 07:54 AM 6/3/2009, you wrote:
>
>> emjones(at)charter.net>
>>
>> I suppose you could "get away with it" to use the airframe for grounding.
>> But remember that the "ground" connection does EXACTLY the same thing as the
>> positive conductor but backwards.
>>
>> Wiring a tail light might be fine, but wiring the ground on a MAC/RAC trim
>> box will almost certainly cause a noisy bar graph indicator, and the desire
>> to keep down the loop resistance can be frustrated, and change with age. If
>> you just can't stop yourself, then at least don't use the airframe or tubes
>> as a high current ground for engine starting.
>>
>> A customer of mine has an automobile built of steel. It has a battery in
>> the trunk and requires an additional ground conductor--or the engine won't
>> start. Hmmmm.......
>>
>
> All of which goes to the system integration task
> of deducing which devices are potential antagonists
> (can be grounded about anywhere) and potential victims
> (demand attention to wiring to avoid ground loop injection
> of noise).
>
> It's not a matter of "getting away with it". This
> phraseology suggests an air of uncertainty or risk
> for using the airframe as a ground. When accomplished
> with a bit of study and understanding, then there is no
> uncertainty, no risk and no wishful thinking for
> "getting away with" anything.
>
> "When facing a decision, ask yourself: what would I do if I wasn't
>> afraid?"
>>
>
> Perhaps the better question is: "What do I need to understand to
> mitigate my unfounded fear?"
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ---------------------------------------
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ---------------------------------------
>
>
--
Mike
===============================
Mike Fontenot
Apex Consulting & Services LLC
Lakewood, Colorado
303 / 731-6645
mikef AT apexconsultingservices DOT com
===============================
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Lightweight Aux Battery? |
| From: | "sonex293" <sonex293(at)gmail.com> |
Bob,
I went back and looked at my existing battery, the Odyssey PC625. From the MFG
datasheets the battery can provide 13.6 Amps for one hour. After recalculating
my load with non-essentials turned off, I 'm currently at 5.4 amps and with
the addition of the EFI system would bring the current requirements to 13.1 Amps.
So,with my current system I could run for about 1 hour, which was my datapoint.
I guess my main concern was the even of a battery failure and/or PM Alternator
failure. Based on you're comments, it sounds like a vary rare occurrence.
I've been unhappy with the fuel delivery methods of the AeroCarb which I'm currently
using and the Bing. Both can be setup to operate "OK", but nether can setup
to operate great across the entire power spectrum. There is also the reason
of just wanting to do it from a technical standpoint.
So it looks like I may not need the complexities of the AUX battery.
--
Michael
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246610#246610
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Lightweight Aux Battery? |
| From: | "sonex293" <sonex293(at)gmail.com> |
>From the items you quoted, I guess you've guessed I'm looking at EFI. There is
already someone in your neck of the woods that has done this modification and
has indicated he is very pleased with the outcome.
--
Michael
Peter Eedy wrote:
> Hi Michael
> What sort of upgrade do you have planned for your 3300?
> Enquiring minds, thinking likewise, would like to know?
> All the best.
>
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246611#246611
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Lightweight Aux Battery? |
Mike,
If it's an option, keep the same battery and add a second alternator.
True, you could go with a bigger battery, but my engine is bigger than
yours and the 680 works fine. A second alt is easy (unless mounting is a
problem), more reliable than batteries (many will argue that one, but my
auto store always sells more batteries than alternators mmmm...) and
adds less weight. Better to be up there with 2 alternators than two
batteries worth diddle. You do need enough juice to keep the alternator
excited and that varies with the brand.
I've got two alternators, one battery, dual EI and plenty of
reliability. If I shut the alternators off, my machine runs for almost
an hour on the 680 with dual EI before falling out of the sky (tested on
ground only).
This is a very old argument and everyone has their own opinion about
his/her mission. The fact that we are all still here talking about it,
lends itself to the idea that either solution is viable and reliable as
long as you respect the limitation of each.
Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
sonex293
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 11:50 AM
Subject: [Probable SPAM] AeroElectric-List: Re: Lightweight Aux Battery?
>From the items you quoted, I guess you've guessed I'm looking at EFI.
There is already someone in your neck of the woods that has done this
modification and has indicated he is very pleased with the outcome.
--
Michael
Peter Eedy wrote:
> Hi Michael
> What sort of upgrade do you have planned for your 3300?
> Enquiring minds, thinking likewise, would like to know?
> All the best.
>
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246611#246611
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Essential Incident - Almost (Long) |
It was suggested by one of the aeroelectric list members, Sam Hoskins, that
the following report of an incident I had on a recent trip be posted to the
AeroElectric list for obvious reasons - once you read it.
I have an all-electric Rv-6A with over 10 years and close to 500 hours on
it. I based the electrical system roughly one of Bob's excellent designs.
It initially had one alternator and two batteries, but removed the second
battery approx 5 years ago - but, I did make one modification to the design
that I almost had cause to regret.
So needless to say, but I will, responsibility for design and incident is
totally mine.
But, to get on with the tale
One the way to Texas I had an incident that ended up in with me and aircraft
making a 7 mile engine-out glide into Craig Field (Selma, Alabama). NO! It
was not fault of the engine or even the subsystems. But, the complete
answer is not provided until after my litany of the conditions and symptoms
- can you figure it out?
I took off on Thursday (28 May 2009) AM from North Carolina planning on
stopping in Mississippi to join up with two friends. After spending the
night there, we all three would then head for Texas. But, the weather (as
you are aware) has been laying over the southeast for days with rain and
more rain - but I launched into it anyway as past Atlanta, GA things were
forecast to improve..
Other than dodging lines of clouds and a bit of scud running, but not much,
I landed at Alexandria City to the southwest of Atlanta, GA to take on fuel.
I then climbed back in and fire it up and took off.
I noticed that during climb-out the engine would occasionally miss and
thought the fuel might have had a bit of water in it, but was not really
concerned. So I fly on for approx another 45 minutes and had just passed
Selma, Alabama and old Craig Air Force base, and turned west toward
Mississippi, when more symptoms began to occur.
It started to act like a case of SAG (fouled spark plugs) where the rpm will
drop a bit - not dangerous - just nerve racking. But, shortly things began
to go beyond the SAG symptoms, so I though I might have an injector problem
(like one sticking open or not opening at all). Since our injectors are in
pairs, I tried turning one pair off figuring if things got better, then
that pair might have a bad injector.
So I turned off one pair and sure enough the symptoms abated a bit (more on
this later) so I figured I had a bad injector in that pair. To be certain I
turned this "bad" pair back on and turn off the "good" pair expecting the
symptoms to really get bad as I would now be running on only the "bad" pair
- much to my surprise when I turned off the "good" pair - the symptoms also
abated. So that indicated it was not an injector problem - but what?
About this time, I decided to turn the aircraft back around toward Craig
Field and dodging clouds headed back with the engine progressively getting
worst. It appeared to be a fuel problem (and while that is ultimately the
subsystem affected - it was not the root cause). The fuel pressure was
ranging from zero to 80 psi, other electrical things were also misbehaving.
I check the voltmeter thinking perhaps the alternator had died - but it
showed 14 volts. So back to the fuel system.
Finally, the engine just stops with the prop standing still - like a hood
ornament, I'm at around 4500-5000 MSL at this point having lost some
altitude dodging a cloud (good old GPS just kept pointing to Craig Field).
At that time I am 6-7 miles out from Craig Field at 4500 msl with a stopped
prop, a crippled seat cushion and a dry mouth. Yes, I've been there before,
but I don't think you ever get "use" to it. I recalled thinking -". things
just can't get worst." when they very shortly and suddenly - did.
I keyed the radio and made a call to Craig Field at 4 miles on the GPS but
before I could get their reply, I heard a "CLANK" (without the engine
running you can hear things like that) like a relay springing open (it was)
and the entire panel goes dead!!!! No radio, no engine instruments, not
even a stinking LED was lit - only the battery powered GPS. Can you spell
"total electrical failure?" Talk about a lonely feeling - amazing how
comforting having lights on and radio - you could almost convince yourself
this was just a practice engine-out landing, but not when the panel goes
dark. No engine gauges, no radio, nada!
Well not being one inclined to panic (but I seriously considered it for a
moment {:>)), I continued toward Craig field - I mean like there were lots
of other alternatives. Well Once again I found myself in the "fortunate
position" of being too high, too much altitude. So I put in 40 degs of flaps
to steepen my rate of descent. But, then I decided this time that rather
than do the 360 I had done on a previous Incident to lose "excessive"
altitude, I would try to glide - a more or less - regular traffic pattern.
However, I neglected to remember to retract the flaps. So I found myself on
the downwind around mid-field at pattern altitude (which felt normal) until
I suddenly realized that you CAN NOT maintain that pattern altitude without
an engine!!! (and particularly with 40 deg of flaps deployed - flaps and
trim are manual) Duh!
I knew I could never make it to the far end of the runway before turning
base (toward the runway) and I was losing altitude at the rate of 400-500
fpm, so I started my turn immediately. To make matters a bit worst - I had
been paralleling the runway on the downwind leg a bit too close in - must
have been the comforting feeling of being close to safety. This position
naturally required a tighter turn and as I turned I saw I was likely to
overshoot the runway and land in the grass. So I though I need to steepen
this turn further (Yep! COFFIN CORNER was calling), but fortunately glanced
at my airspeed indicator - to see it only registering 80 MPH and my rate of
descent (normally 400-500 feet per minute) up to over 1000 feet per minute.
The seat cushion suddenly vanished from this universe.
But the REAL danger in this situation, as you all know, is your airspeed
gets low, you are in a steep bank which greatly raises the stall speed -
meaning at 80 mph you are close to a stall in a steep turn while your are
not in straight and level. So I immediately straighten out of the turn -
the little voice saying "better to land in the grass than get their concrete
runway all messed up". So the immediate danger of a stall was adverted, but
I was still pointed toward the ground with a sink rate twice as high as
normal (and I've manage a few hard landings even with a normal sink rate).
Fortunately, the runway was now under my nose rather than grass.
The hardest thing to do when you are sinking at a 1000 fpm a couple hundred
feet above the ground (with your nose already pointed at the ground) is to
push the stick forward steeping the dive even more. But, I manage to do
that and picked enough air speed and energy to flair to a nice touch down -
not even a bump. I've always been amazed at what total concentration does
to improve you landing {:>).
Rolled to the end of the runway and had energy to roll off onto the taxiway.
Got out, check under the aircraft for any evidence of leaks and started
pulling the aircraft toward the far -off - hangar which had an airplane
parked in front of it. A nice looking young woman comes riding a bicycle
out to meet me. Hopped off and holding out her hand said "Hi I'm Angie,
looks like we'll be spending time together" - so things were starting to
look up {:>)
So pulled the aircraft in to the hangar where the mechanic came over and ask
what the problem was. Well, I looked at the volt meter and it said the
battery was dead. Mechanic put on a battery charger and announced "Yep! The
battery is dead". So we both concluded that the alternator must have failed
and not being able to replenish the drain on the battery by all the
electrical systems such as fuel pumps, injectors, ignition coils, etc had
drained the battery.
However, there were a few problems with the analysis of a failed alternator.
First, the low voltage warning light never came on to warn of an alternator
problem, 2nd I never notice the voltmeter showing anything other than what
it should for alternator voltage - like around 14 volts. While checking the
voltage after the Mechanic had charged the battery, I noticed down below
that the "essential bus" switch was in the battery rather than the
alternator position, so flicked it back to the alternator position figuring
I must have accidentally kicked it while getting to some stuff in the
baggage compartment of my RV-6A.
It was getting late and being a bit tired not to mention stressed, I needed
to get a rental car and a motel for the night. Did that, eat dinner and
went to bed after sitting down and drawing out a problem tree with the
entire major elements of the electrical system.
So next morning I show up at the hangar early and met Ben, the mechanic, the
battery had received a charge of only 45 minutes the evening before, So I
suggested we charged it for another hour and try to start the aircraft. Ben
suggested a real stress test of the battery and NOT charge it anymore. Made
sense, so we rolled the aircraft out of the hangar. I hopped in, threw a
half dozen switches and punched the starter button. The engine started on
the first prop blade rotation - so the battery was clearly OK. The engine is
humming like a top. So I looked over at the voltmeter expecting it to
show only around 12.8 volts instead of the 14 volts a functioning alternator
would produce. Much to both my and Ben's surprise the alternator voltage
read 14 volts. We loaded the alternator by turning on the both l00 watt
landing lights, all fuel pumps, the pitot heat, etc. The alternator voltage
only drops perhaps 0.4 volts clearly indicating the alternator could carry
the load and was OK.
So here I am - battery is OK, alternator is OK - engine is purring normally,
so clearly this was all a figment of my deteriorating brain cells. I loaded
up the aircraft and launched to do a few circuits of the airport - I did so
and all was operating normally and so I radio them I was head onward to
Texas. While flying (with my only functional eyeball on the voltmeter), my
mind could not let go of the problem and finally the light bulb came on.
The essential bus switch had (for my entire 10 + years of flying)always been
in the alternator position. The purpose of this switch is, of course, to
isolate the battery from the alternator should the alternator fail - to
prevent an alternator problem from draining the battery. So in event of an
alternator problem, you move the switch from alternator to battery. Its
call the essential bus because you only have the essential things drawing
from the battery so you wont' drain it as quickly. The idea is to give you
time (generally around 30 minutes) to find a safe place to land in case of
alternator failure.
Well, at some point I had either (not paying attention) turned the switch to
battery thinking I was turning the voltmeter switch to battery(more on that
below) - or accidentally had move the switch from alternator to battery
without noticing it by kicking it, etc. However, it was sort of protected
in its position from accidental activation. It must have happened during
refueling - as I got approx 45 minutes down the road on the battery after
take off before quality battery time started to deteriorate. As the battery
voltage fell due to the load (and no alternator link to replenish it),
electrical things (mainly computers first) started acting up until they
could not longer run the engine. The injectors would not open fully, etc.
Then as the voltage level further decreased, the master relay which the
battery held closed and which connected the (fully functional) alternator to
the rest of the electrical system - opened up and removed ALL power from the
electrical system. So no radio, no gauges, etc.
Oh, another little factor that may have contributed, the voltmeter has a
tiny toggle switch by it marked ALT BAT1 BAT2 for checking alternator
battery 1 and battery 2 (which I no longer fly with) voltages. Down below
It a couple of inches and off to the right is the essential bus normal size
toggle switch - also marked ALT BAT1 BAT1. I normally never touch it and
don't even think about it. But I could have reached for the voltmeter
toggle thinking to check my battery voltage (which I do as a regular thing)
and perhaps distracted by something reached a bit further down and instead
moved the essential bus switch from Alternator to Battery causing this
entire event. I know that I did not consciously do it. So it is either
accidental or absence minded activation - either way ends with the same
results {:>)
Now it became clear why it didn't matter which pair of fuel injectors I
turned off - turning off either pair improved the situation because it
slightly reduced the electrical load by a few amps - and the engine ran
slightly better for a few moments. The same thing had happened when turning
off one of the EFI fuel pumps - but what threw me was the alternator voltage
continued to be normal during this.
After I knew the cause (switch in wrong position), I decided the problem was
fixed so no reason to return to NC, and I just continued on to Texas.
I know some of you may think that removing my second battery was a mistake -
but, consider this, having another battery could have meant I would have
been much further from a suitable airfield before they both went south. On
the other hand, it might have caused me to at least think to throw the
essential bus switch to the second battery and have the Light bulb come on.
Who really knows. But, I have in mind a simply addition to my electrical
circuit that should help in the future.
I do want to state that this time when the problems started I DID switch
fuel tanks - but naturally it had no effect because this time it turned out,
it was not a fuel problem - not the root cause at least.
So what are the lessons learned:
1. Put EVERY critical switch on your before-takeoff Check list
2. Perhaps put a guard around such critical switches to force conscious
activation
3. Don't (hard not to) get overly focused on what you think is the
problem - consider other possibilities. I thought it was a fuel problem (I
even switched fuel tanks this time) - it turned out to be electrical in its
root cause.
4. While the fuel pressure was jumping all over the place and the EGT
was erratic and engine surging strongly indicating a fuel problem - the
ultimate cause was electrical. Once the voltage got below a certain point
the EC2 computer was still trying to pull the injectors open, but with the
voltage so low it could not do it properly.
5. When the battery voltage dropped below a certain point, the master
relay released and removed the alternator from the electrical system and the
panel went dark - even though the alternator was still working
6. Immediately turn to the nearest airfield when serious problems occur
- THEN work on fixing them. I only delayed for perhaps 2-3 minutes, but
that could have made a difference.
7. Watch out for Coffin Corner turn when turning base to final -
airspeed really bleeds off fast with no engine pulling you along (and
especially with flaps deployed!)
8. IF you change your mind about landing approach type - remember to
reconfigure your aircraft for the last decision - I had left my flaps
deployed when I should have remembered to retracted them. Did that help
prevent a Coffin Corner stall and spin or would it have put me closer to it?
9. You must increase airspeed over the wing to get the sufficient
energy to over come a high sink rate. Pulling back on the stick when the
ground is staring you in the face is the natural reaction - but, pushing
forward to lower the nose is the correct action - providing of course you
have sufficient altitude!
10. Battery life - I had a two year old 680 odyssey battery which I
maintain a trickle charge on whenever I'm not flying. With two EFI fuel
pumps, boost pump, injectors, coils, EC2 and radio and just having started
the engine before take off - this battery lasted 55 minutes. Well, the last
5 minutes were not quality battery time. So in my case, 30 minutes appears
to be a very realistic battery life. In fact, had I turned off one EFI pump
and the boost pump would have gained a few more miles. But, if I had
recognized the need to turn them off at that time (I normally turn them off
at cruise altitude), then I would have known how to "fix" the problem.
11. I've decided to add a Schokkty diode between my essential bus and
the alternator - so that as long as the alternator is producing sufficient
voltage, then the battery will be getting some charge to replace the drain.
I've also decided to make that switch position a check-list item.
So what it boils down to - if I had recognized early on that it was an
electrical problem and not focused so much on the fuel system, I may have
noticed the essential bus switch in the wrong position. Force yourself to
examine other possible causes (easy to say - harder to do).
NEVER, NEVER forget that flying the airplane is the first and only priority
in this type of situation
NEVER, NEVER forget that saving your butt is the ultimately end-all
priority. When I decided that landing on the grass was preferable to
putting a hole in their concrete - I may have made a life-saving decision.
So that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Fly safe, guys!!
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
<http://www.andersonee.com> http://www.andersonee.com
<http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html>
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
http://www.flyrotary.com/
<http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm>
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
<http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Essential Incident - Almost (Long) |
| From: | Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins(at)gmail.com> |
Ed - great story. Just out of curiosity, where is the essential bus switch
located? Is it plainly in your field of vision or do you have to turn your
head to see it?
Cockpit ergonomics are a huge challenge.
Sam Hoskins
www.samhoskins.blogspot.com
On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Ed Anderson wrot
e:
> It was suggested by one of the aeroelectric list members, Sam Hoskins,
> that the following report of an incident I had on a recent trip be poste
d
> to the AeroElectric list for obvious reasons ' once you read it.
>
>
> I have an all-electric Rv-6A with over 10 years and close to 500 hours o
n
> it. I based the electrical system roughly one of Bob=92s excellent desig
ns.
> It initially had one alternator and two batteries, but removed the secon
d
> battery approx 5 years ago ' but, I did make one modification to the d
esign
> that I almost had cause to regret.
>
>
> So needless to say, but I will, responsibility for design and incident
is
> totally mine.
>
>
> But, to get on with the tale
>
>
> One the way to Texas I had an incident that ended up in with me and
> aircraft making a 7 mile engine-out glide into Craig Field (Selma,
> Alabama). NO! It was not fault of the engine or even the subsystems. B
ut,
> the complete answer is not provided until after my litany of the conditio
ns
> and symptoms ' can you figure it out?
>
>
> I took off on Thursday (28 May 2009) AM from North Carolina planning on
> stopping in Mississippi to join up with two friends. After spending the
> night there, we all three would then head for Texas. But, the weather (a
s
> you are aware) has been laying over the southeast for days with rain and
> more rain ' but I launched into it anyway as past Atlanta, GA things we
re
> forecast to improve..
>
>
> Other than dodging lines of clouds and a bit of scud running, but not muc
h,
> I landed at Alexandria City to the southwest of Atlanta, GA to take on
> fuel. I then climbed back in and fire it up and took off.
>
>
> I noticed that during climb-out the engine would occasionally miss and
> thought the fuel might have had a bit of water in it, but was not really
> concerned. So I fly on for approx another 45 minutes and had just passed
> Selma, Alabama and old Craig Air Force base, and turned west toward
> Mississippi, when more symptoms began to occur.
>
>
> It started to act like a case of SAG (fouled spark plugs) where the rpm
> will drop a bit ' not dangerous - just nerve racking. But, shortly thi
ngs
> began to go beyond the SAG symptoms, so I though I might have an injector
> problem (like one sticking open or not opening at all). Since our inject
ors
> are in pairs, I tried turning one pair off figuring if things got better
,
> then that pair might have a bad injector.
>
>
> So I turned off one pair and sure enough the symptoms abated a bit (more
on
> this later) so I figured I had a bad injector in that pair. To be certai
n I
> turned this =93bad=94 pair back on and turn off the =93good=94 pair expec
ting the
> symptoms to really get bad as I would now be running on only the =93bad
=94 pair
> ' much to my surprise when I turned off the =93good=94 pair ' the sym
ptoms also
> abated. So that indicated it was not an injector problem ' but what?
>
>
> About this time, I decided to turn the aircraft back around toward Craig
> Field and dodging clouds headed back with the engine progressively gettin
g
> worst. It appeared to be a fuel problem (and while that is ultimately the
> subsystem affected - it was not the root cause). The fuel pressure was
> ranging from zero to 80 psi, other electrical things were also misbehavin
g.
> I check the voltmeter thinking perhaps the alternator had died ' but it
> showed 14 volts. So back to the fuel system.
>
>
> Finally, the engine just stops with the prop standing still - like a ho
od
> ornament, I=92m at around 4500-5000 MSL at this point having lost some
> altitude dodging a cloud (good old GPS just kept pointing to Craig Field)
.
> At that time I am 6-7 miles out from Craig Field at 4500 msl with a stopp
ed
> prop, a crippled seat cushion and a dry mouth. Yes, I=92ve been there be
fore,
> but I don=92t think you ever get =93use=94 to it. I recalled thinking
'=93=85 things
> just can=92t get worst=85=94 when they very shortly and suddenly - did.
>
>
> I keyed the radio and made a call to Craig Field at 4 miles on the GPS bu
t
> before I could get their reply, I heard a =93CLANK=94 (without the engine
> running you can hear things like that) like a relay springing open (it w
as)
> and the entire panel goes dead!!!! No radio, no engine instruments, not
> even a stinking LED was lit ' only the battery powered GPS. Can you sp
ell
> =93total electrical failure?=94 Talk about a lonely feeling ' amazing
how
> comforting having lights on and radio ' you could almost convince yours
elf
> this was just a practice engine-out landing, but not when the panel goes
> dark. No engine gauges, no radio, nada!
>
>
> Well not being one inclined to panic (but I seriously considered it for a
> moment {:>)), I continued toward Craig field ' I mean like there were l
ots
> of other alternatives. Well Once again I found myself in the =93fortunat
e
> position=94 of being too high, too much altitude. So I put in 40 degs of
flaps
> to steepen my rate of descent. But, then I decided this time that rather
> than do the 360 I had done on a previous Incident to lose =93excessive=94
> altitude, I would try to glide - a more or less - regular traffic pattern
.
>
>
> However, I neglected to remember to retract the flaps. So I found myself
> on the downwind around mid-field at pattern altitude (which felt normal)
> until I suddenly realized that you CAN NOT maintain that pattern altitude
> without an engine!!! (and particularly with 40 deg of flaps deployed '
> flaps and trim are manual) Duh!
>
>
> I knew I could never make it to the far end of the runway before turning
> base (toward the runway) and I was losing altitude at the rate of 400-500
> fpm, so I started my turn immediately. To make matters a bit worst - I
had
> been paralleling the runway on the downwind leg a bit too close in ' mu
st
> have been the comforting feeling of being close to safety. This position
> naturally required a tighter turn and as I turned I saw I was likely to
> overshoot the runway and land in the grass. So I though I need to steepe
n
> this turn further (Yep! COFFIN CORNER was calling), but fortunately glan
ced
> at my airspeed indicator - to see it only registering 80 MPH and my rate
of
> descent (normally 400-500 feet per minute) up to over 1000 feet per minut
e.
> The seat cushion suddenly vanished from this universe.
>
>
> But the REAL danger in this situation, as you all know, is your airspee
d
> gets low, you are in a steep bank which greatly raises the stall speed -
> meaning at 80 mph you are close to a stall in a steep turn while your are
> not in straight and level. So I immediately straighten out of the turn
'
> the little voice saying =93better to land in the grass than get their con
crete
> runway all messed up=94. So the immediate danger of a stall was adverted
, but
> I was still pointed toward the ground with a sink rate twice as high as
> normal (and I=92ve manage a few hard landings even with a normal sink rat
e).
> Fortunately, the runway was now under my nose rather than grass.
>
>
> The hardest thing to do when you are sinking at a 1000 fpm a couple hundr
ed
> feet above the ground (with your nose already pointed at the ground) is t
o
> push the stick forward steeping the dive even more. But, I manage to do
> that and picked enough air speed and energy to flair to a nice touch down
'
> not even a bump. I=92ve always been amazed at what total concentration d
oes
> to improve you landing {:>).
>
>
> Rolled to the end of the runway and had energy to roll off onto the
> taxiway. Got out, check under the aircraft for any evidence of leaks an
d
> started pulling the aircraft toward the far 'off ' hangar which had a
n
> airplane parked in front of it. A nice looking young woman comes riding
a
> bicycle out to meet me. Hopped off and holding out her hand said =93Hi I
=92m
> Angie, looks like we=92ll be spending time together=94 ' so things were
starting
> to look up {:>)
>
>
> So pulled the aircraft in to the hangar where the mechanic came over and
> ask what the problem was. Well, I looked at the volt meter and it said t
he
> battery was dead. Mechanic put on a battery charger and announced =93Yep!
The
> battery is dead=94. So we both concluded that the alternator must have f
ailed
> and not being able to replenish the drain on the battery by all the
> electrical systems such as fuel pumps, injectors, ignition coils, etc had
> drained the battery.
>
>
> However, there were a few problems with the analysis of a failed
> alternator. First, the low voltage warning light never came on to warn o
f
> an alternator problem, 2nd I never notice the voltmeter showing anything
> other than what it should for alternator voltage ' like around 14 volts
.
> While checking the voltage after the Mechanic had charged the battery, I
> noticed down below that the =93essential bus=94 switch was in the battery
rather
> than the alternator position, so flicked it back to the alternator positi
on
> figuring I must have accidentally kicked it while getting to some stuff i
n
> the baggage compartment of my RV-6A.
>
>
> It was getting late and being a bit tired not to mention stressed, I need
ed
> to get a rental car and a motel for the night. Did that, eat dinner and
> went to bed after sitting down and drawing out a problem tree with the
> entire major elements of the electrical system.
>
>
> So next morning I show up at the hangar early and met Ben, the mechanic,
> the battery had received a charge of only 45 minutes the evening before,
So
> I suggested we charged it for another hour and try to start the aircraft.
> Ben suggested a real stress test of the battery and NOT charge it anymore
.
> Made sense, so we rolled the aircraft out of the hangar. I hopped in, th
rew
> a half dozen switches and punched the starter button. The engine started
on
> the first prop blade rotation ' so the battery was clearly OK. The engi
ne is
> humming like a top. So I looked over at the voltmeter expecting it to
> show only around 12.8 volts instead of the 14 volts a functioning alterna
tor
> would produce. Much to both my and Ben=92s surprise the alternator volt
age
> read 14 volts. We loaded the alternator by turning on the both l00 watt
> landing lights, all fuel pumps, the pitot heat, etc. The alternator volt
age
> only drops perhaps 0.4 volts clearly indicating the alternator could carr
y
> the load and was OK.
>
>
> So here I am ' battery is OK, alternator is OK ' engine is purring
> normally, so clearly this was all a figment of my deteriorating brain
> cells. I loaded up the aircraft and launched to do a few circuits of the
> airport ' I did so and all was operating normally and so I radio them I
was
> head onward to Texas. While flying (with my only functional eyeball on t
he
> voltmeter), my mind could not let go of the problem and finally the light
> bulb came on.
>
>
> The essential bus switch had (for my entire 10 + years of flying)always
> been in the alternator position. The purpose of this switch is, of cours
e,
> to isolate the battery from the alternator should the alternator fail -
to
> prevent an alternator problem from draining the battery. So in event of
an
> alternator problem, you move the switch from alternator to battery. Its
> call the essential bus because you only have the essential things drawing
> from the battery so you wont=92 drain it as quickly. The idea is to give
you
> time (generally around 30 minutes) to find a safe place to land in case o
f
> alternator failure.
>
>
> Well, at some point I had either (not paying attention) turned the switch
> to battery thinking I was turning the voltmeter switch to battery(more on
> that below) - or accidentally had move the switch from alternator to
> battery without noticing it by kicking it, etc. However, it was sort of
> protected in its position from accidental activation. It must have happen
ed
> during refueling ' as I got approx 45 minutes down the road on the batt
ery
> after take off before quality battery time started to deteriorate. As th
e
> battery voltage fell due to the load (and no alternator link to replenish
> it), electrical things (mainly computers first) started acting up until t
hey
> could not longer run the engine. The injectors would not open fully, etc.
> Then as the voltage level further decreased, the master relay which the
> battery held closed and which connected the (fully functional) alternator
to
> the rest of the electrical system - opened up and removed ALL power from
the
> electrical system. So no radio, no gauges, etc.
>
>
> Oh, another little factor that may have contributed, the voltmeter has a
> tiny toggle switch by it marked ALT BAT1 BAT2 for checking alternator
> battery 1 and battery 2 (which I no longer fly with) voltages. Down belo
w
> It a couple of inches and off to the right is the essential bus normal si
ze
> toggle switch ' also marked ALT BAT1 BAT1. I normally never touch it a
nd
> don=92t even think about it. But I could have reached for the voltmeter
> toggle thinking to check my battery voltage (which I do as a regular thin
g)
> and perhaps distracted by something reached a bit further down and instea
d
> moved the essential bus switch from Alternator to Battery causing this
> entire event. I know that I did not consciously do it. So it is either
> accidental or absence minded activation - either way ends with the same
> results {:>)
>
>
> Now it became clear why it didn=92t matter which pair of fuel injectors I
> turned off ' turning off either pair improved the situation because it
> slightly reduced the electrical load by a few amps ' and the engine ran
> slightly better for a few moments. The same thing had happened when turn
ing
> off one of the EFI fuel pumps ' but what threw me was the alternator vo
ltage
> continued to be normal during this.
>
>
> After I knew the cause (switch in wrong position), I decided the problem
> was fixed so no reason to return to NC, and I just continued on to Texas.
>
>
> I know some of you may think that removing my second battery was a mistak
e
> ' but, consider this, having another battery could have meant I would h
ave
> been much further from a suitable airfield before they both went south.
On
> the other hand, it might have caused me to at least think to throw the
> essential bus switch to the second battery and have the Light bulb come o
n.
> Who really knows. But, I have in mind a simply addition to my electrical
> circuit that should help in the future.
>
>
> I do want to state that this time when the problems started I DID switch
> fuel tanks ' but naturally it had no effect because this time it turned
out,
> it was not a fuel problem ' not the root cause at least.
>
>
> So what are the lessons learned:
>
>
> 1. Put EVERY critical switch on your before-takeoff Check list
> 2. Perhaps put a guard around such critical switches to force consciou
s
> activation
> 3. Don=92t (hard not to) get overly focused on what you think is the
> problem ' consider other possibilities. I thought it was a fuel pro
blem (I
> even switched fuel tanks this time) ' it turned out to be electrical
in its
> root cause.
> 4. While the fuel pressure was jumping all over the place and the EGT
> was erratic and engine surging strongly indicating a fuel problem '
the
> ultimate cause was electrical. Once the voltage got below a certain p
oint
> the EC2 computer was still trying to pull the injectors open, but wit
h the
> voltage so low it could not do it properly.
> 5. When the battery voltage dropped below a certain point, the master
> relay released and removed the alternator from the electrical system a
nd the
> panel went dark ' even though the alternator was still working
> 6. Immediately turn to the nearest airfield when serious problems occu
r
> - THEN work on fixing them. I only delayed for perhaps 2-3 minutes, b
ut
> that could have made a difference.
> 7. Watch out for *Coffin Corner* turn when turning base to final '
> airspeed really bleeds off fast with no engine pulling you along (and
> especially with flaps deployed!)
> 8. IF you change your mind about landing approach type - remember to
> reconfigure your aircraft for the last decision ' I had left my flap
s
> deployed when I should have remembered to retracted them. Did that he
lp
> prevent a Coffin Corner stall and spin or would it have put me closer
to it?
> 9. You must increase airspeed over the wing to get the sufficient
> energy to over come a high sink rate. Pulling back on the stick when
the
> ground is staring you in the face is the natural reaction ' but, pus
hing
> forward to lower the nose is the correct action ' providing of cours
e you
> have sufficient altitude!
> 10. Battery life ' I had a two year old 680 odyssey battery which I
> maintain a trickle charge on whenever I=92m not flying. With two EFI
fuel
> pumps, boost pump, injectors, coils, EC2 and radio and just having sta
rted
> the engine before take off ' this battery lasted 55 minutes. Well,
the last
> 5 minutes were not quality battery time. So in my case, 30 minutes ap
pears
> to be a very realistic battery life. In fact, had I turned off one EF
I pump
> and the boost pump would have gained a few more miles. But, if I had
> recognized the need to turn them off at that time (I normally turn the
m off
> at cruise altitude), then I would have known how to =93fix=94 the prob
lem.
> 11. I=92ve decided to add a Schokkty diode between my essential bus an
d
> the alternator ' so that as long as the alternator is producing suff
icient
> voltage, then the battery will be getting some charge to replace the d
rain.
> I=92ve also decided to make that switch position a check-list item.
>
>
> So what it boils down to ' if I had recognized early on that it was an
> electrical problem and not focused so much on the fuel system, I may have
> noticed the essential bus switch in the wrong position. Force yourself t
o
> examine other possible causes (easy to say ' harder to do).
>
>
> NEVER, NEVER forget that flying the airplane is the first and only priori
ty
> in this type of situation
>
>
> NEVER, NEVER forget that saving your butt is the ultimately end-all
> priority. When I decided that landing on the grass was preferable to
> putting a hole in their concrete ' I may have made a life-saving decis
ion.
>
>
> So that=92s my story and I=92m sticking to it.
>
>
> Fly safe, guys!!
>
>
> Ed
>
> Ed Anderson
>
> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
>
> Matthews, NC
>
> eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
>
> http://www.andersonee.com
>
> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
>
> http://www.flyrotary.com/
>
> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm>
>
> <http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html>
>
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Essential Incident - Almost (Long) |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Great writeup Ed. Thanks for sharing it with the list.
Regards,
Matt-
> It was suggested by one of the aeroelectric list members, Sam Hoskins,
> that
> the following report of an incident I had on a recent trip be posted to
> the
> AeroElectric list for obvious reasons - once you read it.
>
>
> I have an all-electric Rv-6A with over 10 years and close to 500 hours on
> it. I based the electrical system roughly one of Bob's excellent designs.
> It initially had one alternator and two batteries, but removed the second
> battery approx 5 years ago - but, I did make one modification to the
> design
> that I almost had cause to regret.
>
>
> So needless to say, but I will, responsibility for design and incident
> is
> totally mine.
>
>
> But, to get on with the tale
>
>
> One the way to Texas I had an incident that ended up in with me and
> aircraft
> making a 7 mile engine-out glide into Craig Field (Selma, Alabama). NO!
> It
> was not fault of the engine or even the subsystems. But, the complete
> answer is not provided until after my litany of the conditions and
> symptoms
> - can you figure it out?
>
>
> I took off on Thursday (28 May 2009) AM from North Carolina planning on
> stopping in Mississippi to join up with two friends. After spending the
> night there, we all three would then head for Texas. But, the weather (as
> you are aware) has been laying over the southeast for days with rain and
> more rain - but I launched into it anyway as past Atlanta, GA things were
> forecast to improve..
>
>
> Other than dodging lines of clouds and a bit of scud running, but not
> much,
> I landed at Alexandria City to the southwest of Atlanta, GA to take on
> fuel.
> I then climbed back in and fire it up and took off.
>
>
> I noticed that during climb-out the engine would occasionally miss and
> thought the fuel might have had a bit of water in it, but was not really
> concerned. So I fly on for approx another 45 minutes and had just passed
> Selma, Alabama and old Craig Air Force base, and turned west toward
> Mississippi, when more symptoms began to occur.
>
>
> It started to act like a case of SAG (fouled spark plugs) where the rpm
> will
> drop a bit - not dangerous - just nerve racking. But, shortly things
> began
> to go beyond the SAG symptoms, so I though I might have an injector
> problem
> (like one sticking open or not opening at all). Since our injectors are
> in
> pairs, I tried turning one pair off figuring if things got better, then
> that pair might have a bad injector.
>
>
> So I turned off one pair and sure enough the symptoms abated a bit (more
> on
> this later) so I figured I had a bad injector in that pair. To be certain
> I
> turned this "bad" pair back on and turn off the "good" pair expecting the
> symptoms to really get bad as I would now be running on only the "bad"
> pair
> - much to my surprise when I turned off the "good" pair - the symptoms
> also
> abated. So that indicated it was not an injector problem - but what?
>
>
> About this time, I decided to turn the aircraft back around toward Craig
> Field and dodging clouds headed back with the engine progressively getting
> worst. It appeared to be a fuel problem (and while that is ultimately the
> subsystem affected - it was not the root cause). The fuel pressure was
> ranging from zero to 80 psi, other electrical things were also
> misbehaving.
> I check the voltmeter thinking perhaps the alternator had died - but it
> showed 14 volts. So back to the fuel system.
>
>
> Finally, the engine just stops with the prop standing still - like a
> hood
> ornament, I'm at around 4500-5000 MSL at this point having lost some
> altitude dodging a cloud (good old GPS just kept pointing to Craig Field).
> At that time I am 6-7 miles out from Craig Field at 4500 msl with a
> stopped
> prop, a crippled seat cushion and a dry mouth. Yes, I've been there
> before,
> but I don't think you ever get "use" to it. I recalled thinking -".
> things
> just can't get worst." when they very shortly and suddenly - did.
>
>
> I keyed the radio and made a call to Craig Field at 4 miles on the GPS but
> before I could get their reply, I heard a "CLANK" (without the engine
> running you can hear things like that) like a relay springing open (it
> was)
> and the entire panel goes dead!!!! No radio, no engine instruments, not
> even a stinking LED was lit - only the battery powered GPS. Can you spell
> "total electrical failure?" Talk about a lonely feeling - amazing how
> comforting having lights on and radio - you could almost convince yourself
> this was just a practice engine-out landing, but not when the panel goes
> dark. No engine gauges, no radio, nada!
>
>
> Well not being one inclined to panic (but I seriously considered it for a
> moment {:>)), I continued toward Craig field - I mean like there were lots
> of other alternatives. Well Once again I found myself in the "fortunate
> position" of being too high, too much altitude. So I put in 40 degs of
> flaps
> to steepen my rate of descent. But, then I decided this time that rather
> than do the 360 I had done on a previous Incident to lose "excessive"
> altitude, I would try to glide - a more or less - regular traffic pattern.
>
>
> However, I neglected to remember to retract the flaps. So I found myself
> on
> the downwind around mid-field at pattern altitude (which felt normal)
> until
> I suddenly realized that you CAN NOT maintain that pattern altitude
> without
> an engine!!! (and particularly with 40 deg of flaps deployed - flaps and
> trim are manual) Duh!
>
>
> I knew I could never make it to the far end of the runway before turning
> base (toward the runway) and I was losing altitude at the rate of 400-500
> fpm, so I started my turn immediately. To make matters a bit worst - I
> had
> been paralleling the runway on the downwind leg a bit too close in - must
> have been the comforting feeling of being close to safety. This position
> naturally required a tighter turn and as I turned I saw I was likely to
> overshoot the runway and land in the grass. So I though I need to steepen
> this turn further (Yep! COFFIN CORNER was calling), but fortunately
> glanced
> at my airspeed indicator - to see it only registering 80 MPH and my rate
> of
> descent (normally 400-500 feet per minute) up to over 1000 feet per
> minute.
> The seat cushion suddenly vanished from this universe.
>
>
> But the REAL danger in this situation, as you all know, is your airspeed
> gets low, you are in a steep bank which greatly raises the stall speed -
> meaning at 80 mph you are close to a stall in a steep turn while your are
> not in straight and level. So I immediately straighten out of the turn -
> the little voice saying "better to land in the grass than get their
> concrete
> runway all messed up". So the immediate danger of a stall was adverted,
> but
> I was still pointed toward the ground with a sink rate twice as high as
> normal (and I've manage a few hard landings even with a normal sink rate).
> Fortunately, the runway was now under my nose rather than grass.
>
>
> The hardest thing to do when you are sinking at a 1000 fpm a couple
> hundred
> feet above the ground (with your nose already pointed at the ground) is to
> push the stick forward steeping the dive even more. But, I manage to do
> that and picked enough air speed and energy to flair to a nice touch down
> -
> not even a bump. I've always been amazed at what total concentration does
> to improve you landing {:>).
>
>
> Rolled to the end of the runway and had energy to roll off onto the
> taxiway.
> Got out, check under the aircraft for any evidence of leaks and started
> pulling the aircraft toward the far -off - hangar which had an airplane
> parked in front of it. A nice looking young woman comes riding a bicycle
> out to meet me. Hopped off and holding out her hand said "Hi I'm Angie,
> looks like we'll be spending time together" - so things were starting to
> look up {:>)
>
>
> So pulled the aircraft in to the hangar where the mechanic came over and
> ask
> what the problem was. Well, I looked at the volt meter and it said the
> battery was dead. Mechanic put on a battery charger and announced "Yep!
> The
> battery is dead". So we both concluded that the alternator must have
> failed
> and not being able to replenish the drain on the battery by all the
> electrical systems such as fuel pumps, injectors, ignition coils, etc had
> drained the battery.
>
>
> However, there were a few problems with the analysis of a failed
> alternator.
> First, the low voltage warning light never came on to warn of an
> alternator
> problem, 2nd I never notice the voltmeter showing anything other than what
> it should for alternator voltage - like around 14 volts. While checking
> the
> voltage after the Mechanic had charged the battery, I noticed down below
> that the "essential bus" switch was in the battery rather than the
> alternator position, so flicked it back to the alternator position
> figuring
> I must have accidentally kicked it while getting to some stuff in the
> baggage compartment of my RV-6A.
>
>
> It was getting late and being a bit tired not to mention stressed, I
> needed
> to get a rental car and a motel for the night. Did that, eat dinner and
> went to bed after sitting down and drawing out a problem tree with the
> entire major elements of the electrical system.
>
>
> So next morning I show up at the hangar early and met Ben, the mechanic,
> the
> battery had received a charge of only 45 minutes the evening before, So I
> suggested we charged it for another hour and try to start the aircraft.
> Ben
> suggested a real stress test of the battery and NOT charge it anymore.
> Made
> sense, so we rolled the aircraft out of the hangar. I hopped in, threw a
> half dozen switches and punched the starter button. The engine started on
> the first prop blade rotation - so the battery was clearly OK. The engine
> is
> humming like a top. So I looked over at the voltmeter expecting it to
> show only around 12.8 volts instead of the 14 volts a functioning
> alternator
> would produce. Much to both my and Ben's surprise the alternator voltage
> read 14 volts. We loaded the alternator by turning on the both l00 watt
> landing lights, all fuel pumps, the pitot heat, etc. The alternator
> voltage
> only drops perhaps 0.4 volts clearly indicating the alternator could carry
> the load and was OK.
>
>
> So here I am - battery is OK, alternator is OK - engine is purring
> normally,
> so clearly this was all a figment of my deteriorating brain cells. I
> loaded
> up the aircraft and launched to do a few circuits of the airport - I did
> so
> and all was operating normally and so I radio them I was head onward to
> Texas. While flying (with my only functional eyeball on the voltmeter),
> my
> mind could not let go of the problem and finally the light bulb came on.
>
>
> The essential bus switch had (for my entire 10 + years of flying)always
> been
> in the alternator position. The purpose of this switch is, of course, to
> isolate the battery from the alternator should the alternator fail - to
> prevent an alternator problem from draining the battery. So in event of
> an
> alternator problem, you move the switch from alternator to battery. Its
> call the essential bus because you only have the essential things drawing
> from the battery so you wont' drain it as quickly. The idea is to give
> you
> time (generally around 30 minutes) to find a safe place to land in case of
> alternator failure.
>
>
> Well, at some point I had either (not paying attention) turned the switch
> to
> battery thinking I was turning the voltmeter switch to battery(more on
> that
> below) - or accidentally had move the switch from alternator to battery
> without noticing it by kicking it, etc. However, it was sort of protected
> in its position from accidental activation. It must have happened during
> refueling - as I got approx 45 minutes down the road on the battery after
> take off before quality battery time started to deteriorate. As the
> battery
> voltage fell due to the load (and no alternator link to replenish it),
> electrical things (mainly computers first) started acting up until they
> could not longer run the engine. The injectors would not open fully, etc.
> Then as the voltage level further decreased, the master relay which the
> battery held closed and which connected the (fully functional) alternator
> to
> the rest of the electrical system - opened up and removed ALL power from
> the
> electrical system. So no radio, no gauges, etc.
>
>
> Oh, another little factor that may have contributed, the voltmeter has a
> tiny toggle switch by it marked ALT BAT1 BAT2 for checking alternator
> battery 1 and battery 2 (which I no longer fly with) voltages. Down below
> It a couple of inches and off to the right is the essential bus normal
> size
> toggle switch - also marked ALT BAT1 BAT1. I normally never touch it and
> don't even think about it. But I could have reached for the voltmeter
> toggle thinking to check my battery voltage (which I do as a regular
> thing)
> and perhaps distracted by something reached a bit further down and instead
> moved the essential bus switch from Alternator to Battery causing this
> entire event. I know that I did not consciously do it. So it is either
> accidental or absence minded activation - either way ends with the same
> results {:>)
>
>
> Now it became clear why it didn't matter which pair of fuel injectors I
> turned off - turning off either pair improved the situation because it
> slightly reduced the electrical load by a few amps - and the engine ran
> slightly better for a few moments. The same thing had happened when
> turning
> off one of the EFI fuel pumps - but what threw me was the alternator
> voltage
> continued to be normal during this.
>
>
> After I knew the cause (switch in wrong position), I decided the problem
> was
> fixed so no reason to return to NC, and I just continued on to Texas.
>
>
> I know some of you may think that removing my second battery was a mistake
> -
> but, consider this, having another battery could have meant I would have
> been much further from a suitable airfield before they both went south.
> On
> the other hand, it might have caused me to at least think to throw the
> essential bus switch to the second battery and have the Light bulb come
> on.
> Who really knows. But, I have in mind a simply addition to my electrical
> circuit that should help in the future.
>
>
> I do want to state that this time when the problems started I DID switch
> fuel tanks - but naturally it had no effect because this time it turned
> out,
> it was not a fuel problem - not the root cause at least.
>
>
> So what are the lessons learned:
>
>
> 1. Put EVERY critical switch on your before-takeoff Check list
> 2. Perhaps put a guard around such critical switches to force conscious
> activation
> 3. Don't (hard not to) get overly focused on what you think is the
> problem - consider other possibilities. I thought it was a fuel problem
> (I
> even switched fuel tanks this time) - it turned out to be electrical in
> its
> root cause.
> 4. While the fuel pressure was jumping all over the place and the EGT
> was erratic and engine surging strongly indicating a fuel problem - the
> ultimate cause was electrical. Once the voltage got below a certain point
> the EC2 computer was still trying to pull the injectors open, but with
> the
> voltage so low it could not do it properly.
> 5. When the battery voltage dropped below a certain point, the master
> relay released and removed the alternator from the electrical system and
> the
> panel went dark - even though the alternator was still working
> 6. Immediately turn to the nearest airfield when serious problems occur
> - THEN work on fixing them. I only delayed for perhaps 2-3 minutes, but
> that could have made a difference.
> 7. Watch out for Coffin Corner turn when turning base to final -
> airspeed really bleeds off fast with no engine pulling you along (and
> especially with flaps deployed!)
> 8. IF you change your mind about landing approach type - remember to
> reconfigure your aircraft for the last decision - I had left my flaps
> deployed when I should have remembered to retracted them. Did that help
> prevent a Coffin Corner stall and spin or would it have put me closer to
> it?
>
> 9. You must increase airspeed over the wing to get the sufficient
> energy to over come a high sink rate. Pulling back on the stick when the
> ground is staring you in the face is the natural reaction - but, pushing
> forward to lower the nose is the correct action - providing of course you
> have sufficient altitude!
> 10. Battery life - I had a two year old 680 odyssey battery which I
> maintain a trickle charge on whenever I'm not flying. With two EFI fuel
> pumps, boost pump, injectors, coils, EC2 and radio and just having started
> the engine before take off - this battery lasted 55 minutes. Well, the
> last
> 5 minutes were not quality battery time. So in my case, 30 minutes
> appears
> to be a very realistic battery life. In fact, had I turned off one EFI
> pump
> and the boost pump would have gained a few more miles. But, if I had
> recognized the need to turn them off at that time (I normally turn them
> off
> at cruise altitude), then I would have known how to "fix" the problem.
> 11. I've decided to add a Schokkty diode between my essential bus and
> the alternator - so that as long as the alternator is producing sufficient
> voltage, then the battery will be getting some charge to replace the
> drain.
> I've also decided to make that switch position a check-list item.
>
>
> So what it boils down to - if I had recognized early on that it was an
> electrical problem and not focused so much on the fuel system, I may have
> noticed the essential bus switch in the wrong position. Force yourself to
> examine other possible causes (easy to say - harder to do).
>
>
> NEVER, NEVER forget that flying the airplane is the first and only
> priority
> in this type of situation
>
>
> NEVER, NEVER forget that saving your butt is the ultimately end-all
> priority. When I decided that landing on the grass was preferable to
> putting a hole in their concrete - I may have made a life-saving
> decision.
>
>
> So that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
>
>
> Fly safe, guys!!
>
>
> Ed
>
> Ed Anderson
>
> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
>
> Matthews, NC
>
> eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
>
> <http://www.andersonee.com> http://www.andersonee.com
>
> <http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html>
> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
>
> http://www.flyrotary.com/
>
> <http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm>
> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
>
> <http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Essential Incident - Almost (Long) |
Ed,
Congrats for keeping your cool, and flying the airplane to a safe
landing. And thanks for sharing the story, so we can all learn from
your incident.
I fully agree that checklists are important. If your electrical
system design assumes that the electrical system will be in a
particular configuration for flight, then you need a checklist that
ensures this is true. And you need to religiously do every step on
that checklist before take-off.
It is also useful to have well thought out checklists for engine
failure, engine rough running, etc. For example, a well thought rough
running engine checklist would include all steps necessary to check
voltage on whatever bus(s) your engine needs.
One thing that puzzles me about your electrical system design - it
seems that your engine needs power from the Essential Bus. But it
seems like your active low voltage warning is looking at some other
bus. Why not hook the low voltage warning up the the one bus that is
really important - i.e. the Essential Bus?
Kevin Horton
On 3-Jun-09, at 15:53 , Ed Anderson wrote:
> It was suggested by one of the aeroelectric list members, Sam
> Hoskins, that the following report of an incident I had on a recent
> trip be posted to the AeroElectric list for obvious reasons once
> you read it.
>
> I have an all-electric Rv-6A with over 10 years and close to 500
> hours on it. I based the electrical system roughly one of Bobs
> excellent designs. It initially had one alternator and two
> batteries, but removed the second battery approx 5 years ago but,
> I did make one modification to the design that I almost had cause
> to regret.
>
> So needless to say, but I will, responsibility for design and
> incident is totally mine.
>
> But, to get on with the tale
>
>
> One the way to Texas I had an incident that ended up in with me and
> aircraft making a 7 mile engine-out glide into Craig Field (Selma,
> Alabama). NO! It was not fault of the engine or even the
> subsystems. But, the complete answer is not provided until after my
> litany of the conditions and symptoms can you figure it out?
>
> I took off on Thursday (28 May 2009) AM from North Carolina planning
> on stopping in Mississippi to join up with two friends. After
> spending the night there, we all three would then head for Texas.
> But, the weather (as you are aware) has been laying over the
> southeast for days with rain and more rain but I launched into it
> anyway as past Atlanta, GA things were forecast to improve..
>
> Other than dodging lines of clouds and a bit of scud running, but
> not much, I landed at Alexandria City to the southwest of Atlanta,
> GA to take on fuel. I then climbed back in and fire it up and took
> off.
>
> I noticed that during climb-out the engine would occasionally miss
> and thought the fuel might have had a bit of water in it, but was
> not really concerned. So I fly on for approx another 45 minutes and
> had just passed Selma, Alabama and old Craig Air Force base, and
> turned west toward Mississippi, when more symptoms began to occur.
>
> It started to act like a case of SAG (fouled spark plugs) where the
> rpm will drop a bit not dangerous - just nerve racking. But,
> shortly things began to go beyond the SAG symptoms, so I though I
> might have an injector problem (like one sticking open or not
> opening at all). Since our injectors are in pairs, I tried turning
> one pair off figuring if things got better, then that pair might
> have a bad injector.
>
> So I turned off one pair and sure enough the symptoms abated a bit
> (more on this later) so I figured I had a bad injector in that
> pair. To be certain I turned this bad pair back on and turn off
> the good pair expecting the symptoms to really get bad as I would
> now be running on only the bad pair much to my surprise when I
> turned off the good pair the symptoms also abated. So that
> indicated it was not an injector problem but what?
>
> About this time, I decided to turn the aircraft back around toward
> Craig Field and dodging clouds headed back with the engine
> progressively getting worst. It appeared to be a fuel problem (and
> while that is ultimately the subsystem affected - it was not the
> root cause). The fuel pressure was ranging from zero to 80 psi,
> other electrical things were also misbehaving. I check the
> voltmeter thinking perhaps the alternator had died but it showed
> 14 volts. So back to the fuel system.
>
> Finally, the engine just stops with the prop standing still - like
> a hood ornament, Im at around 4500-5000 MSL at this point having
> lost some altitude dodging a cloud (good old GPS just kept pointing
> to Craig Field). At that time I am 6-7 miles out from Craig Field
> at 4500 msl with a stopped prop, a crippled seat cushion and a dry
> mouth. Yes, Ive been there before, but I dont think you ever get
> use to it. I recalled thinking things just cant get
> worst when they very shortly and suddenly - did.
>
> I keyed the radio and made a call to Craig Field at 4 miles on the
> GPS but before I could get their reply, I heard a CLANK (without
> the engine running you can hear things like that) like a relay
> springing open (it was) and the entire panel goes dead!!!! No
> radio, no engine instruments, not even a stinking LED was lit only
> the battery powered GPS. Can you spell total electrical failure?
> Talk about a lonely feeling amazing how comforting having lights
> on and radio you could almost convince yourself this was just a
> practice engine-out landing, but not when the panel goes dark. No
> engine gauges, no radio, nada!
>
> Well not being one inclined to panic (but I seriously considered it
> for a moment {:>)), I continued toward Craig field I mean like
> there were lots of other alternatives. Well Once again I found
> myself in the fortunate position of being too high, too much
> altitude. So I put in 40 degs of flaps to steepen my rate of
> descent. But, then I decided this time that rather than do the 360 I
> had done on a previous Incident to lose excessive altitude, I
> would try to glide - a more or less - regular traffic pattern.
>
> However, I neglected to remember to retract the flaps. So I found
> myself on the downwind around mid-field at pattern altitude (which
> felt normal) until I suddenly realized that you CAN NOT maintain
> that pattern altitude without an engine!!! (and particularly with
> 40 deg of flaps deployed flaps and trim are manual) Duh!
>
> I knew I could never make it to the far end of the runway before
> turning base (toward the runway) and I was losing altitude at the
> rate of 400-500 fpm, so I started my turn immediately. To make
> matters a bit worst - I had been paralleling the runway on the
> downwind leg a bit too close in must have been the comforting
> feeling of being close to safety. This position naturally required
> a tighter turn and as I turned I saw I was likely to overshoot the
> runway and land in the grass. So I though I need to steepen this
> turn further (Yep! COFFIN CORNER was calling), but fortunately
> glanced at my airspeed indicator - to see it only registering 80 MPH
> and my rate of descent (normally 400-500 feet per minute) up to over
> 1000 feet per minute. The seat cushion suddenly vanished from this
> universe.
>
> But the REAL danger in this situation, as you all know, is your
> airspeed gets low, you are in a steep bank which greatly raises the
> stall speed - meaning at 80 mph you are close to a stall in a steep
> turn while your are not in straight and level. So I immediately
> straighten out of the turn the little voice saying better to land
> in the grass than get their concrete runway all messed up. So the
> immediate danger of a stall was adverted, but I was still pointed
> toward the ground with a sink rate twice as high as normal (and Ive
> manage a few hard landings even with a normal sink rate).
> Fortunately, the runway was now under my nose rather than grass.
>
> The hardest thing to do when you are sinking at a 1000 fpm a couple
> hundred feet above the ground (with your nose already pointed at the
> ground) is to push the stick forward steeping the dive even more.
> But, I manage to do that and picked enough air speed and energy to
> flair to a nice touch down not even a bump. Ive always been
> amazed at what total concentration does to improve you landing {:>).
>
> Rolled to the end of the runway and had energy to roll off onto the
> taxiway. Got out, check under the aircraft for any evidence of
> leaks and started pulling the aircraft toward the far off hangar
> which had an airplane parked in front of it. A nice looking young
> woman comes riding a bicycle out to meet me. Hopped off and holding
> out her hand said Hi Im Angie, looks like well be spending time
> together so things were starting to look up {:>)
>
> So pulled the aircraft in to the hangar where the mechanic came over
> and ask what the problem was. Well, I looked at the volt meter and
> it said the battery was dead. Mechanic put on a battery charger and
> announced Yep! The battery is dead. So we both concluded that the
> alternator must have failed and not being able to replenish the
> drain on the battery by all the electrical systems such as fuel
> pumps, injectors, ignition coils, etc had drained the battery.
>
> However, there were a few problems with the analysis of a failed
> alternator. First, the low voltage warning light never came on to
> warn of an alternator problem, 2nd I never notice the voltmeter
> showing anything other than what it should for alternator voltage
> like around 14 volts. While checking the voltage after the Mechanic
> had charged the battery, I noticed down below that the essential
> bus switch was in the battery rather than the alternator position,
> so flicked it back to the alternator position figuring I must have
> accidentally kicked it while getting to some stuff in the baggage
> compartment of my RV-6A.
>
> It was getting late and being a bit tired not to mention stressed, I
> needed to get a rental car and a motel for the night. Did that, eat
> dinner and went to bed after sitting down and drawing out a problem
> tree with the entire major elements of the electrical system.
>
> So next morning I show up at the hangar early and met Ben, the
> mechanic, the battery had received a charge of only 45 minutes the
> evening before, So I suggested we charged it for another hour and
> try to start the aircraft. Ben suggested a real stress test of the
> battery and NOT charge it anymore. Made sense, so we rolled the
> aircraft out of the hangar. I hopped in, threw a half dozen
> switches and punched the starter button. The engine started on the
> first prop blade rotation so the battery was clearly OK. The
> engine is humming like a top. So I looked over at the voltmeter
> expecting it to show only around 12.8 volts instead of the 14 volts
> a functioning alternator would produce. Much to both my and Bens
> surprise the alternator voltage read 14 volts. We loaded the
> alternator by turning on the both l00 watt landing lights, all fuel
> pumps, the pitot heat, etc. The alternator voltage only drops
> perhaps 0.4 volts clearly indicating the alternator could carry the
> load and was OK.
>
> So here I am battery is OK, alternator is OK engine is purring
> normally, so clearly this was all a figment of my deteriorating
> brain cells. I loaded up the aircraft and launched to do a few
> circuits of the airport I did so and all was operating normally
> and so I radio them I was head onward to Texas. While flying (with
> my only functional eyeball on the voltmeter), my mind could not let
> go of the problem and finally the light bulb came on.
>
> The essential bus switch had (for my entire 10 + years of
> flying)always been in the alternator position. The purpose of this
> switch is, of course, to isolate the battery from the alternator
> should the alternator fail - to prevent an alternator problem from
> draining the battery. So in event of an alternator problem, you
> move the switch from alternator to battery. Its call the essential
> bus because you only have the essential things drawing from the
> battery so you wont drain it as quickly. The idea is to give you
> time (generally around 30 minutes) to find a safe place to land in
> case of alternator failure.
>
>
> Well, at some point I had either (not paying attention) turned the
> switch to battery thinking I was turning the voltmeter switch to
> battery(more on that below) - or accidentally had move the switch
> from alternator to battery without noticing it by kicking it, etc.
> However, it was sort of protected in its position from accidental
> activation. It must have happened during refueling as I got approx
> 45 minutes down the road on the battery after take off before
> quality battery time started to deteriorate. As the battery voltage
> fell due to the load (and no alternator link to replenish it),
> electrical things (mainly computers first) started acting up until
> they could not longer run the engine. The injectors would not open
> fully, etc. Then as the voltage level further decreased, the master
> relay which the battery held closed and which connected the (fully
> functional) alternator to the rest of the electrical system - opened
> up and removed ALL power from the electrical system. So no radio,
> no gauges, etc.
>
> Oh, another little factor that may have contributed, the voltmeter
> has a tiny toggle switch by it marked ALT BAT1 BAT2 for checking
> alternator battery 1 and battery 2 (which I no longer fly with)
> voltages. Down below It a couple of inches and off to the right is
> the essential bus normal size toggle switch also marked ALT BAT1
> BAT1. I normally never touch it and dont even think about it. But
> I could have reached for the voltmeter toggle thinking to check my
> battery voltage (which I do as a regular thing) and perhaps
> distracted by something reached a bit further down and instead moved
> the essential bus switch from Alternator to Battery causing this
> entire event. I know that I did not consciously do it. So it is
> either accidental or absence minded activation - either way ends
> with the same results {:>)
>
>
> Now it became clear why it didnt matter which pair of fuel
> injectors I turned off turning off either pair improved the
> situation because it slightly reduced the electrical load by a few
> amps and the engine ran slightly better for a few moments. The
> same thing had happened when turning off one of the EFI fuel pumps
> but what threw me was the alternator voltage continued to be normal
> during this.
>
> After I knew the cause (switch in wrong position), I decided the
> problem was fixed so no reason to return to NC, and I just continued
> on to Texas.
>
> I know some of you may think that removing my second battery was a
> mistake but, consider this, having another battery could have
> meant I would have been much further from a suitable airfield before
> they both went south. On the other hand, it might have caused me to
> at least think to throw the essential bus switch to the second
> battery and have the Light bulb come on. Who really knows. But, I
> have in mind a simply addition to my electrical circuit that should
> help in the future.
>
>
> I do want to state that this time when the problems started I DID
> switch fuel tanks but naturally it had no effect because this time
> it turned out, it was not a fuel problem not the root cause at
> least.
>
> So what are the lessons learned:
>
> Put EVERY critical switch on your before-takeoff Check list
> Perhaps put a guard around such critical switches to force
> conscious activation
> Dont (hard not to) get overly focused on what you think is the
> problem consider other possibilities. I thought it was a fuel
> problem (I even switched fuel tanks this time) it turned out to be
> electrical in its root cause.
> While the fuel pressure was jumping all over the place and the
> EGT was erratic and engine surging strongly indicating a fuel
> problem the ultimate cause was electrical. Once the voltage got
> below a certain point the EC2 computer was still trying to pull the
> injectors open, but with the voltage so low it could not do it
> properly.
> When the battery voltage dropped below a certain point, the
> master relay released and removed the alternator from the electrical
> system and the panel went dark even though the alternator was
> still working
> Immediately turn to the nearest airfield when serious problems
> occur - THEN work on fixing them. I only delayed for perhaps 2-3
> minutes, but that could have made a difference.
> Watch out for Coffin Corner turn when turning base to final
> airspeed really bleeds off fast with no engine pulling you along
> (and especially with flaps deployed!)
> IF you change your mind about landing approach type - remember to
> reconfigure your aircraft for the last decision I had left my
> flaps deployed when I should have remembered to retracted them. Did
> that help prevent a Coffin Corner stall and spin or would it have
> put me closer to it?
> You must increase airspeed over the wing to get the sufficient
> energy to over come a high sink rate. Pulling back on the stick
> when the ground is staring you in the face is the natural reaction
> but, pushing forward to lower the nose is the correct action
> providing of course you have sufficient altitude!
> Battery life I had a two year old 680 odyssey battery which I
> maintain a trickle charge on whenever Im not flying. With two EFI
> fuel pumps, boost pump, injectors, coils, EC2 and radio and just
> having started the engine before take off this battery lasted 55
> minutes. Well, the last 5 minutes were not quality battery time.
> So in my case, 30 minutes appears to be a very realistic battery
> life. In fact, had I turned off one EFI pump and the boost pump
> would have gained a few more miles. But, if I had recognized the
> need to turn them off at that time (I normally turn them off at
> cruise altitude), then I would have known how to fix the problem.
> Ive decided to add a Schokkty diode between my essential bus and
> the alternator so that as long as the alternator is producing
> sufficient voltage, then the battery will be getting some charge to
> replace the drain. Ive also decided to make that switch position a
> check-list item.
>
> So what it boils down to if I had recognized early on that it was
> an electrical problem and not focused so much on the fuel system, I
> may have noticed the essential bus switch in the wrong position.
> Force yourself to examine other possible causes (easy to say
> harder to do).
>
> NEVER, NEVER forget that flying the airplane is the first and only
> priority in this type of situation
>
> NEVER, NEVER forget that saving your butt is the ultimately end-all
> priority. When I decided that landing on the grass was preferable
> to putting a hole in their concrete I may have made a life-saving
> decision.
>
> So thats my story and Im sticking to it.
>
> Fly safe, guys!!
>
> Ed
> Ed Anderson
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Essential Incident - Almost (Long) |
Sam, its just about on the centerline of the panel but down on the bottom.
So its actually outside my line of vision looking straight ahead. My
voltmeter and its toggle selector is above it approx 3-4" and slightly to
the left of it. Both are within reach without stretching.
As I mentioned the essential bus switch has been in the alternator position
for the past 10 years of flying and never moved since initial testing back
then. Should have had it on my pre-takeoff check list and will.
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
<http://www.andersonee.com> http://www.andersonee.com
<http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html>
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
http://www.flyrotary.com/
<http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm>
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http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
<http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html>
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam
Hoskins
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Essential Incident - Almost (Long)
Ed - great story. Just out of curiosity, where is the essential bus switch
located? Is it plainly in your field of vision or do you have to turn your
head to see it?
Cockpit ergonomics are a huge challenge.
Sam Hoskins
www.samhoskins.blogspot.com
On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Ed Anderson
wrote:
It was suggested by one of the aeroelectric list members, Sam Hoskins, that
the following report of an incident I had on a recent trip be posted to the
AeroElectric list for obvious reasons - once you read it.
I have an all-electric Rv-6A with over 10 years and close to 500 hours on
it. I based the electrical system roughly one of Bob's excellent designs.
It initially had one alternator and two batteries, but removed the second
battery approx 5 years ago - but, I did make one modification to the design
that I almost had cause to regret.
So needless to say, but I will, responsibility for design and incident is
totally mine.
But, to get on with the tale
One the way to Texas I had an incident that ended up in with me and aircraft
making a 7 mile engine-out glide into Craig Field (Selma, Alabama). NO! It
was not fault of the engine or even the subsystems. But, the complete
answer is not provided until after my litany of the conditions and symptoms
- can you figure it out?
I took off on Thursday (28 May 2009) AM from North Carolina planning on
stopping in Mississippi to join up with two friends. After spending the
night there, we all three would then head for Texas. But, the weather (as
you are aware) has been laying over the southeast for days with rain and
more rain - but I launched into it anyway as past Atlanta, GA things were
forecast to improve..
Other than dodging lines of clouds and a bit of scud running, but not much,
I landed at Alexandria City to the southwest of Atlanta, GA to take on fuel.
I then climbed back in and fire it up and took off.
I noticed that during climb-out the engine would occasionally miss and
thought the fuel might have had a bit of water in it, but was not really
concerned. So I fly on for approx another 45 minutes and had just passed
Selma, Alabama and old Craig Air Force base, and turned west toward
Mississippi, when more symptoms began to occur.
It started to act like a case of SAG (fouled spark plugs) where the rpm will
drop a bit - not dangerous - just nerve racking. But, shortly things began
to go beyond the SAG symptoms, so I though I might have an injector problem
(like one sticking open or not opening at all). Since our injectors are in
pairs, I tried turning one pair off figuring if things got better, then
that pair might have a bad injector.
So I turned off one pair and sure enough the symptoms abated a bit (more on
this later) so I figured I had a bad injector in that pair. To be certain I
turned this "bad" pair back on and turn off the "good" pair expecting the
symptoms to really get bad as I would now be running on only the "bad" pair
- much to my surprise when I turned off the "good" pair - the symptoms also
abated. So that indicated it was not an injector problem - but what?
About this time, I decided to turn the aircraft back around toward Craig
Field and dodging clouds headed back with the engine progressively getting
worst. It appeared to be a fuel problem (and while that is ultimately the
subsystem affected - it was not the root cause). The fuel pressure was
ranging from zero to 80 psi, other electrical things were also misbehaving.
I check the voltmeter thinking perhaps the alternator had died - but it
showed 14 volts. So back to the fuel system.
Finally, the engine just stops with the prop standing still - like a hood
ornament, I'm at around 4500-5000 MSL at this point having lost some
altitude dodging a cloud (good old GPS just kept pointing to Craig Field).
At that time I am 6-7 miles out from Craig Field at 4500 msl with a stopped
prop, a crippled seat cushion and a dry mouth. Yes, I've been there before,
but I don't think you ever get "use" to it. I recalled thinking -". things
just can't get worst." when they very shortly and suddenly - did.
I keyed the radio and made a call to Craig Field at 4 miles on the GPS but
before I could get their reply, I heard a "CLANK" (without the engine
running you can hear things like that) like a relay springing open (it was)
and the entire panel goes dead!!!! No radio, no engine instruments, not
even a stinking LED was lit - only the battery powered GPS. Can you spell
"total electrical failure?" Talk about a lonely feeling - amazing how
comforting having lights on and radio - you could almost convince yourself
this was just a practice engine-out landing, but not when the panel goes
dark. No engine gauges, no radio, nada!
Well not being one inclined to panic (but I seriously considered it for a
moment {:>)), I continued toward Craig field - I mean like there were lots
of other alternatives. Well Once again I found myself in the "fortunate
position" of being too high, too much altitude. So I put in 40 degs of flaps
to steepen my rate of descent. But, then I decided this time that rather
than do the 360 I had done on a previous Incident to lose "excessive"
altitude, I would try to glide - a more or less - regular traffic pattern.
However, I neglected to remember to retract the flaps. So I found myself on
the downwind around mid-field at pattern altitude (which felt normal) until
I suddenly realized that you CAN NOT maintain that pattern altitude without
an engine!!! (and particularly with 40 deg of flaps deployed - flaps and
trim are manual) Duh!
I knew I could never make it to the far end of the runway before turning
base (toward the runway) and I was losing altitude at the rate of 400-500
fpm, so I started my turn immediately. To make matters a bit worst - I had
been paralleling the runway on the downwind leg a bit too close in - must
have been the comforting feeling of being close to safety. This position
naturally required a tighter turn and as I turned I saw I was likely to
overshoot the runway and land in the grass. So I though I need to steepen
this turn further (Yep! COFFIN CORNER was calling), but fortunately glanced
at my airspeed indicator - to see it only registering 80 MPH and my rate of
descent (normally 400-500 feet per minute) up to over 1000 feet per minute.
The seat cushion suddenly vanished from this universe.
But the REAL danger in this situation, as you all know, is your airspeed
gets low, you are in a steep bank which greatly raises the stall speed -
meaning at 80 mph you are close to a stall in a steep turn while your are
not in straight and level. So I immediately straighten out of the turn -
the little voice saying "better to land in the grass than get their concrete
runway all messed up". So the immediate danger of a stall was adverted, but
I was still pointed toward the ground with a sink rate twice as high as
normal (and I've manage a few hard landings even with a normal sink rate).
Fortunately, the runway was now under my nose rather than grass.
The hardest thing to do when you are sinking at a 1000 fpm a couple hundred
feet above the ground (with your nose already pointed at the ground) is to
push the stick forward steeping the dive even more. But, I manage to do
that and picked enough air speed and energy to flair to a nice touch down -
not even a bump. I've always been amazed at what total concentration does
to improve you landing {:>).
Rolled to the end of the runway and had energy to roll off onto the taxiway.
Got out, check under the aircraft for any evidence of leaks and started
pulling the aircraft toward the far -off - hangar which had an airplane
parked in front of it. A nice looking young woman comes riding a bicycle
out to meet me. Hopped off and holding out her hand said "Hi I'm Angie,
looks like we'll be spending time together" - so things were starting to
look up {:>)
So pulled the aircraft in to the hangar where the mechanic came over and ask
what the problem was. Well, I looked at the volt meter and it said the
battery was dead. Mechanic put on a battery charger and announced "Yep! The
battery is dead". So we both concluded that the alternator must have failed
and not being able to replenish the drain on the battery by all the
electrical systems such as fuel pumps, injectors, ignition coils, etc had
drained the battery.
However, there were a few problems with the analysis of a failed alternator.
First, the low voltage warning light never came on to warn of an alternator
problem, 2nd I never notice the voltmeter showing anything other than what
it should for alternator voltage - like around 14 volts. While checking the
voltage after the Mechanic had charged the battery, I noticed down below
that the "essential bus" switch was in the battery rather than the
alternator position, so flicked it back to the alternator position figuring
I must have accidentally kicked it while getting to some stuff in the
baggage compartment of my RV-6A.
It was getting late and being a bit tired not to mention stressed, I needed
to get a rental car and a motel for the night. Did that, eat dinner and
went to bed after sitting down and drawing out a problem tree with the
entire major elements of the electrical system.
So next morning I show up at the hangar early and met Ben, the mechanic, the
battery had received a charge of only 45 minutes the evening before, So I
suggested we charged it for another hour and try to start the aircraft. Ben
suggested a real stress test of the battery and NOT charge it anymore. Made
sense, so we rolled the aircraft out of the hangar. I hopped in, threw a
half dozen switches and punched the starter button. The engine started on
the first prop blade rotation - so the battery was clearly OK. The engine is
humming like a top. So I looked over at the voltmeter expecting it to
show only around 12.8 volts instead of the 14 volts a functioning alternator
would produce. Much to both my and Ben's surprise the alternator voltage
read 14 volts. We loaded the alternator by turning on the both l00 watt
landing lights, all fuel pumps, the pitot heat, etc. The alternator voltage
only drops perhaps 0.4 volts clearly indicating the alternator could carry
the load and was OK.
So here I am - battery is OK, alternator is OK - engine is purring normally,
so clearly this was all a figment of my deteriorating brain cells. I loaded
up the aircraft and launched to do a few circuits of the airport - I did so
and all was operating normally and so I radio them I was head onward to
Texas. While flying (with my only functional eyeball on the voltmeter), my
mind could not let go of the problem and finally the light bulb came on.
The essential bus switch had (for my entire 10 + years of flying)always been
in the alternator position. The purpose of this switch is, of course, to
isolate the battery from the alternator should the alternator fail - to
prevent an alternator problem from draining the battery. So in event of an
alternator problem, you move the switch from alternator to battery. Its
call the essential bus because you only have the essential things drawing
from the battery so you wont' drain it as quickly. The idea is to give you
time (generally around 30 minutes) to find a safe place to land in case of
alternator failure.
Well, at some point I had either (not paying attention) turned the switch to
battery thinking I was turning the voltmeter switch to battery(more on that
below) - or accidentally had move the switch from alternator to battery
without noticing it by kicking it, etc. However, it was sort of protected
in its position from accidental activation. It must have happened during
refueling - as I got approx 45 minutes down the road on the battery after
take off before quality battery time started to deteriorate. As the battery
voltage fell due to the load (and no alternator link to replenish it),
electrical things (mainly computers first) started acting up until they
could not longer run the engine. The injectors would not open fully, etc.
Then as the voltage level further decreased, the master relay which the
battery held closed and which connected the (fully functional) alternator to
the rest of the electrical system - opened up and removed ALL power from the
electrical system. So no radio, no gauges, etc.
Oh, another little factor that may have contributed, the voltmeter has a
tiny toggle switch by it marked ALT BAT1 BAT2 for checking alternator
battery 1 and battery 2 (which I no longer fly with) voltages. Down below
It a couple of inches and off to the right is the essential bus normal size
toggle switch - also marked ALT BAT1 BAT1. I normally never touch it and
don't even think about it. But I could have reached for the voltmeter
toggle thinking to check my battery voltage (which I do as a regular thing)
and perhaps distracted by something reached a bit further down and instead
moved the essential bus switch from Alternator to Battery causing this
entire event. I know that I did not consciously do it. So it is either
accidental or absence minded activation - either way ends with the same
results {:>)
Now it became clear why it didn't matter which pair of fuel injectors I
turned off - turning off either pair improved the situation because it
slightly reduced the electrical load by a few amps - and the engine ran
slightly better for a few moments. The same thing had happened when turning
off one of the EFI fuel pumps - but what threw me was the alternator voltage
continued to be normal during this.
After I knew the cause (switch in wrong position), I decided the problem was
fixed so no reason to return to NC, and I just continued on to Texas.
I know some of you may think that removing my second battery was a mistake -
but, consider this, having another battery could have meant I would have
been much further from a suitable airfield before they both went south. On
the other hand, it might have caused me to at least think to throw the
essential bus switch to the second battery and have the Light bulb come on.
Who really knows. But, I have in mind a simply addition to my electrical
circuit that should help in the future.
I do want to state that this time when the problems started I DID switch
fuel tanks - but naturally it had no effect because this time it turned out,
it was not a fuel problem - not the root cause at least.
So what are the lessons learned:
1. Put EVERY critical switch on your before-takeoff Check list
2. Perhaps put a guard around such critical switches to force conscious
activation
3. Don't (hard not to) get overly focused on what you think is the
problem - consider other possibilities. I thought it was a fuel problem (I
even switched fuel tanks this time) - it turned out to be electrical in its
root cause.
4. While the fuel pressure was jumping all over the place and the EGT
was erratic and engine surging strongly indicating a fuel problem - the
ultimate cause was electrical. Once the voltage got below a certain point
the EC2 computer was still trying to pull the injectors open, but with the
voltage so low it could not do it properly.
5. When the battery voltage dropped below a certain point, the master
relay released and removed the alternator from the electrical system and the
panel went dark - even though the alternator was still working
6. Immediately turn to the nearest airfield when serious problems occur
- THEN work on fixing them. I only delayed for perhaps 2-3 minutes, but
that could have made a difference.
7. Watch out for Coffin Corner turn when turning base to final -
airspeed really bleeds off fast with no engine pulling you along (and
especially with flaps deployed!)
8. IF you change your mind about landing approach type - remember to
reconfigure your aircraft for the last decision - I had left my flaps
deployed when I should have remembered to retracted them. Did that help
prevent a Coffin Corner stall and spin or would it have put me closer to it?
9. You must increase airspeed over the wing to get the sufficient
energy to over come a high sink rate. Pulling back on the stick when the
ground is staring you in the face is the natural reaction - but, pushing
forward to lower the nose is the correct action - providing of course you
have sufficient altitude!
10. Battery life - I had a two year old 680 odyssey battery which I
maintain a trickle charge on whenever I'm not flying. With two EFI fuel
pumps, boost pump, injectors, coils, EC2 and radio and just having started
the engine before take off - this battery lasted 55 minutes. Well, the last
5 minutes were not quality battery time. So in my case, 30 minutes appears
to be a very realistic battery life. In fact, had I turned off one EFI pump
and the boost pump would have gained a few more miles. But, if I had
recognized the need to turn them off at that time (I normally turn them off
at cruise altitude), then I would have known how to "fix" the problem.
11. I've decided to add a Schokkty diode between my essential bus and
the alternator - so that as long as the alternator is producing sufficient
voltage, then the battery will be getting some charge to replace the drain.
I've also decided to make that switch position a check-list item.
So what it boils down to - if I had recognized early on that it was an
electrical problem and not focused so much on the fuel system, I may have
noticed the essential bus switch in the wrong position. Force yourself to
examine other possible causes (easy to say - harder to do).
NEVER, NEVER forget that flying the airplane is the first and only priority
in this type of situation
NEVER, NEVER forget that saving your butt is the ultimately end-all
priority. When I decided that landing on the grass was preferable to
putting a hole in their concrete - I may have made a life-saving decision.
So that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Fly safe, guys!!
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
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| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Essential Incident - Almost (Long) |
Thanks, Matt
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
http://www.flyrotary.com/
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt
Prather
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Essential Incident - Almost (Long)
Great writeup Ed. Thanks for sharing it with the list.
Regards,
Matt-
> It was suggested by one of the aeroelectric list members, Sam Hoskins,
> that
> the following report of an incident I had on a recent trip be posted to
> the
> AeroElectric list for obvious reasons - once you read it.
>
>
> I have an all-electric Rv-6A with over 10 years and close to 500 hours on
> it. I based the electrical system roughly one of Bob's excellent designs.
> It initially had one alternator and two batteries, but removed the second
> battery approx 5 years ago - but, I did make one modification to the
> design
> that I almost had cause to regret.
>
>
> So needless to say, but I will, responsibility for design and incident
> is
> totally mine.
>
>
> But, to get on with the tale
>
>
> One the way to Texas I had an incident that ended up in with me and
> aircraft
> making a 7 mile engine-out glide into Craig Field (Selma, Alabama). NO!
> It
> was not fault of the engine or even the subsystems. But, the complete
> answer is not provided until after my litany of the conditions and
> symptoms
> - can you figure it out?
>
>
> I took off on Thursday (28 May 2009) AM from North Carolina planning on
> stopping in Mississippi to join up with two friends. After spending the
> night there, we all three would then head for Texas. But, the weather (as
> you are aware) has been laying over the southeast for days with rain and
> more rain - but I launched into it anyway as past Atlanta, GA things were
> forecast to improve..
>
>
> Other than dodging lines of clouds and a bit of scud running, but not
> much,
> I landed at Alexandria City to the southwest of Atlanta, GA to take on
> fuel.
> I then climbed back in and fire it up and took off.
>
>
> I noticed that during climb-out the engine would occasionally miss and
> thought the fuel might have had a bit of water in it, but was not really
> concerned. So I fly on for approx another 45 minutes and had just passed
> Selma, Alabama and old Craig Air Force base, and turned west toward
> Mississippi, when more symptoms began to occur.
>
>
> It started to act like a case of SAG (fouled spark plugs) where the rpm
> will
> drop a bit - not dangerous - just nerve racking. But, shortly things
> began
> to go beyond the SAG symptoms, so I though I might have an injector
> problem
> (like one sticking open or not opening at all). Since our injectors are
> in
> pairs, I tried turning one pair off figuring if things got better, then
> that pair might have a bad injector.
>
>
> So I turned off one pair and sure enough the symptoms abated a bit (more
> on
> this later) so I figured I had a bad injector in that pair. To be certain
> I
> turned this "bad" pair back on and turn off the "good" pair expecting the
> symptoms to really get bad as I would now be running on only the "bad"
> pair
> - much to my surprise when I turned off the "good" pair - the symptoms
> also
> abated. So that indicated it was not an injector problem - but what?
>
>
> About this time, I decided to turn the aircraft back around toward Craig
> Field and dodging clouds headed back with the engine progressively getting
> worst. It appeared to be a fuel problem (and while that is ultimately the
> subsystem affected - it was not the root cause). The fuel pressure was
> ranging from zero to 80 psi, other electrical things were also
> misbehaving.
> I check the voltmeter thinking perhaps the alternator had died - but it
> showed 14 volts. So back to the fuel system.
>
>
> Finally, the engine just stops with the prop standing still - like a
> hood
> ornament, I'm at around 4500-5000 MSL at this point having lost some
> altitude dodging a cloud (good old GPS just kept pointing to Craig Field).
> At that time I am 6-7 miles out from Craig Field at 4500 msl with a
> stopped
> prop, a crippled seat cushion and a dry mouth. Yes, I've been there
> before,
> but I don't think you ever get "use" to it. I recalled thinking -".
> things
> just can't get worst." when they very shortly and suddenly - did.
>
>
> I keyed the radio and made a call to Craig Field at 4 miles on the GPS but
> before I could get their reply, I heard a "CLANK" (without the engine
> running you can hear things like that) like a relay springing open (it
> was)
> and the entire panel goes dead!!!! No radio, no engine instruments, not
> even a stinking LED was lit - only the battery powered GPS. Can you spell
> "total electrical failure?" Talk about a lonely feeling - amazing how
> comforting having lights on and radio - you could almost convince yourself
> this was just a practice engine-out landing, but not when the panel goes
> dark. No engine gauges, no radio, nada!
>
>
> Well not being one inclined to panic (but I seriously considered it for a
> moment {:>)), I continued toward Craig field - I mean like there were lots
> of other alternatives. Well Once again I found myself in the "fortunate
> position" of being too high, too much altitude. So I put in 40 degs of
> flaps
> to steepen my rate of descent. But, then I decided this time that rather
> than do the 360 I had done on a previous Incident to lose "excessive"
> altitude, I would try to glide - a more or less - regular traffic pattern.
>
>
> However, I neglected to remember to retract the flaps. So I found myself
> on
> the downwind around mid-field at pattern altitude (which felt normal)
> until
> I suddenly realized that you CAN NOT maintain that pattern altitude
> without
> an engine!!! (and particularly with 40 deg of flaps deployed - flaps and
> trim are manual) Duh!
>
>
> I knew I could never make it to the far end of the runway before turning
> base (toward the runway) and I was losing altitude at the rate of 400-500
> fpm, so I started my turn immediately. To make matters a bit worst - I
> had
> been paralleling the runway on the downwind leg a bit too close in - must
> have been the comforting feeling of being close to safety. This position
> naturally required a tighter turn and as I turned I saw I was likely to
> overshoot the runway and land in the grass. So I though I need to steepen
> this turn further (Yep! COFFIN CORNER was calling), but fortunately
> glanced
> at my airspeed indicator - to see it only registering 80 MPH and my rate
> of
> descent (normally 400-500 feet per minute) up to over 1000 feet per
> minute.
> The seat cushion suddenly vanished from this universe.
>
>
> But the REAL danger in this situation, as you all know, is your airspeed
> gets low, you are in a steep bank which greatly raises the stall speed -
> meaning at 80 mph you are close to a stall in a steep turn while your are
> not in straight and level. So I immediately straighten out of the turn -
> the little voice saying "better to land in the grass than get their
> concrete
> runway all messed up". So the immediate danger of a stall was adverted,
> but
> I was still pointed toward the ground with a sink rate twice as high as
> normal (and I've manage a few hard landings even with a normal sink rate).
> Fortunately, the runway was now under my nose rather than grass.
>
>
> The hardest thing to do when you are sinking at a 1000 fpm a couple
> hundred
> feet above the ground (with your nose already pointed at the ground) is to
> push the stick forward steeping the dive even more. But, I manage to do
> that and picked enough air speed and energy to flair to a nice touch down
> -
> not even a bump. I've always been amazed at what total concentration does
> to improve you landing {:>).
>
>
> Rolled to the end of the runway and had energy to roll off onto the
> taxiway.
> Got out, check under the aircraft for any evidence of leaks and started
> pulling the aircraft toward the far -off - hangar which had an airplane
> parked in front of it. A nice looking young woman comes riding a bicycle
> out to meet me. Hopped off and holding out her hand said "Hi I'm Angie,
> looks like we'll be spending time together" - so things were starting to
> look up {:>)
>
>
> So pulled the aircraft in to the hangar where the mechanic came over and
> ask
> what the problem was. Well, I looked at the volt meter and it said the
> battery was dead. Mechanic put on a battery charger and announced "Yep!
> The
> battery is dead". So we both concluded that the alternator must have
> failed
> and not being able to replenish the drain on the battery by all the
> electrical systems such as fuel pumps, injectors, ignition coils, etc had
> drained the battery.
>
>
> However, there were a few problems with the analysis of a failed
> alternator.
> First, the low voltage warning light never came on to warn of an
> alternator
> problem, 2nd I never notice the voltmeter showing anything other than what
> it should for alternator voltage - like around 14 volts. While checking
> the
> voltage after the Mechanic had charged the battery, I noticed down below
> that the "essential bus" switch was in the battery rather than the
> alternator position, so flicked it back to the alternator position
> figuring
> I must have accidentally kicked it while getting to some stuff in the
> baggage compartment of my RV-6A.
>
>
> It was getting late and being a bit tired not to mention stressed, I
> needed
> to get a rental car and a motel for the night. Did that, eat dinner and
> went to bed after sitting down and drawing out a problem tree with the
> entire major elements of the electrical system.
>
>
> So next morning I show up at the hangar early and met Ben, the mechanic,
> the
> battery had received a charge of only 45 minutes the evening before, So I
> suggested we charged it for another hour and try to start the aircraft.
> Ben
> suggested a real stress test of the battery and NOT charge it anymore.
> Made
> sense, so we rolled the aircraft out of the hangar. I hopped in, threw a
> half dozen switches and punched the starter button. The engine started on
> the first prop blade rotation - so the battery was clearly OK. The engine
> is
> humming like a top. So I looked over at the voltmeter expecting it to
> show only around 12.8 volts instead of the 14 volts a functioning
> alternator
> would produce. Much to both my and Ben's surprise the alternator voltage
> read 14 volts. We loaded the alternator by turning on the both l00 watt
> landing lights, all fuel pumps, the pitot heat, etc. The alternator
> voltage
> only drops perhaps 0.4 volts clearly indicating the alternator could carry
> the load and was OK.
>
>
> So here I am - battery is OK, alternator is OK - engine is purring
> normally,
> so clearly this was all a figment of my deteriorating brain cells. I
> loaded
> up the aircraft and launched to do a few circuits of the airport - I did
> so
> and all was operating normally and so I radio them I was head onward to
> Texas. While flying (with my only functional eyeball on the voltmeter),
> my
> mind could not let go of the problem and finally the light bulb came on.
>
>
> The essential bus switch had (for my entire 10 + years of flying)always
> been
> in the alternator position. The purpose of this switch is, of course, to
> isolate the battery from the alternator should the alternator fail - to
> prevent an alternator problem from draining the battery. So in event of
> an
> alternator problem, you move the switch from alternator to battery. Its
> call the essential bus because you only have the essential things drawing
> from the battery so you wont' drain it as quickly. The idea is to give
> you
> time (generally around 30 minutes) to find a safe place to land in case of
> alternator failure.
>
>
> Well, at some point I had either (not paying attention) turned the switch
> to
> battery thinking I was turning the voltmeter switch to battery(more on
> that
> below) - or accidentally had move the switch from alternator to battery
> without noticing it by kicking it, etc. However, it was sort of protected
> in its position from accidental activation. It must have happened during
> refueling - as I got approx 45 minutes down the road on the battery after
> take off before quality battery time started to deteriorate. As the
> battery
> voltage fell due to the load (and no alternator link to replenish it),
> electrical things (mainly computers first) started acting up until they
> could not longer run the engine. The injectors would not open fully, etc.
> Then as the voltage level further decreased, the master relay which the
> battery held closed and which connected the (fully functional) alternator
> to
> the rest of the electrical system - opened up and removed ALL power from
> the
> electrical system. So no radio, no gauges, etc.
>
>
> Oh, another little factor that may have contributed, the voltmeter has a
> tiny toggle switch by it marked ALT BAT1 BAT2 for checking alternator
> battery 1 and battery 2 (which I no longer fly with) voltages. Down below
> It a couple of inches and off to the right is the essential bus normal
> size
> toggle switch - also marked ALT BAT1 BAT1. I normally never touch it and
> don't even think about it. But I could have reached for the voltmeter
> toggle thinking to check my battery voltage (which I do as a regular
> thing)
> and perhaps distracted by something reached a bit further down and instead
> moved the essential bus switch from Alternator to Battery causing this
> entire event. I know that I did not consciously do it. So it is either
> accidental or absence minded activation - either way ends with the same
> results {:>)
>
>
> Now it became clear why it didn't matter which pair of fuel injectors I
> turned off - turning off either pair improved the situation because it
> slightly reduced the electrical load by a few amps - and the engine ran
> slightly better for a few moments. The same thing had happened when
> turning
> off one of the EFI fuel pumps - but what threw me was the alternator
> voltage
> continued to be normal during this.
>
>
> After I knew the cause (switch in wrong position), I decided the problem
> was
> fixed so no reason to return to NC, and I just continued on to Texas.
>
>
> I know some of you may think that removing my second battery was a mistake
> -
> but, consider this, having another battery could have meant I would have
> been much further from a suitable airfield before they both went south.
> On
> the other hand, it might have caused me to at least think to throw the
> essential bus switch to the second battery and have the Light bulb come
> on.
> Who really knows. But, I have in mind a simply addition to my electrical
> circuit that should help in the future.
>
>
> I do want to state that this time when the problems started I DID switch
> fuel tanks - but naturally it had no effect because this time it turned
> out,
> it was not a fuel problem - not the root cause at least.
>
>
> So what are the lessons learned:
>
>
> 1. Put EVERY critical switch on your before-takeoff Check list
> 2. Perhaps put a guard around such critical switches to force conscious
> activation
> 3. Don't (hard not to) get overly focused on what you think is the
> problem - consider other possibilities. I thought it was a fuel problem
> (I
> even switched fuel tanks this time) - it turned out to be electrical in
> its
> root cause.
> 4. While the fuel pressure was jumping all over the place and the EGT
> was erratic and engine surging strongly indicating a fuel problem - the
> ultimate cause was electrical. Once the voltage got below a certain point
> the EC2 computer was still trying to pull the injectors open, but with
> the
> voltage so low it could not do it properly.
> 5. When the battery voltage dropped below a certain point, the master
> relay released and removed the alternator from the electrical system and
> the
> panel went dark - even though the alternator was still working
> 6. Immediately turn to the nearest airfield when serious problems occur
> - THEN work on fixing them. I only delayed for perhaps 2-3 minutes, but
> that could have made a difference.
> 7. Watch out for Coffin Corner turn when turning base to final -
> airspeed really bleeds off fast with no engine pulling you along (and
> especially with flaps deployed!)
> 8. IF you change your mind about landing approach type - remember to
> reconfigure your aircraft for the last decision - I had left my flaps
> deployed when I should have remembered to retracted them. Did that help
> prevent a Coffin Corner stall and spin or would it have put me closer to
> it?
>
> 9. You must increase airspeed over the wing to get the sufficient
> energy to over come a high sink rate. Pulling back on the stick when the
> ground is staring you in the face is the natural reaction - but, pushing
> forward to lower the nose is the correct action - providing of course you
> have sufficient altitude!
> 10. Battery life - I had a two year old 680 odyssey battery which I
> maintain a trickle charge on whenever I'm not flying. With two EFI fuel
> pumps, boost pump, injectors, coils, EC2 and radio and just having started
> the engine before take off - this battery lasted 55 minutes. Well, the
> last
> 5 minutes were not quality battery time. So in my case, 30 minutes
> appears
> to be a very realistic battery life. In fact, had I turned off one EFI
> pump
> and the boost pump would have gained a few more miles. But, if I had
> recognized the need to turn them off at that time (I normally turn them
> off
> at cruise altitude), then I would have known how to "fix" the problem.
> 11. I've decided to add a Schokkty diode between my essential bus and
> the alternator - so that as long as the alternator is producing sufficient
> voltage, then the battery will be getting some charge to replace the
> drain.
> I've also decided to make that switch position a check-list item.
>
>
> So what it boils down to - if I had recognized early on that it was an
> electrical problem and not focused so much on the fuel system, I may have
> noticed the essential bus switch in the wrong position. Force yourself to
> examine other possible causes (easy to say - harder to do).
>
>
> NEVER, NEVER forget that flying the airplane is the first and only
> priority
> in this type of situation
>
>
> NEVER, NEVER forget that saving your butt is the ultimately end-all
> priority. When I decided that landing on the grass was preferable to
> putting a hole in their concrete - I may have made a life-saving
> decision.
>
>
> So that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
>
>
> Fly safe, guys!!
>
>
> Ed
>
> Ed Anderson
>
> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
>
> Matthews, NC
>
> eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
>
> <http://www.andersonee.com> http://www.andersonee.com
>
> <http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html>
> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
>
> http://www.flyrotary.com/
>
> <http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm>
> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
>
> <http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html>
>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Essential Incident - Almost (Long) |
Thanks Kevin
Could not agree with your points more. Yes, I have a pre-takeoff check list
which I do use - however, as you point out - if an item is not on it that is
critical to safe flight, then it is certainly incomplete.
I do not have an in-flight emergency check list, but will certainly give
that some serious thought - it would be helpful if it just isolated whether
the problem was the fuel system, electrical system and their subsystems.
Another good suggestion
Ah, good analysis, Kevin. You are correct, my low voltage light is hooked to
my alternator circuit and not the essential bus. The logic (if there was
any) was that if the alternator started to fail then the warning light would
warn me before I started to drain the battery. However, in this case, the
alternator was continuing to produce 14 V so naturally the low voltage light
never came on. So again, I agree on all the points you made.
Just goes to show you how even things designed to make it safer can do the
opposite under certain conditions. Clearly, there are a few things that I
need to change {:>)
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
http://www.flyrotary.com/
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin
Horton
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Essential Incident - Almost (Long)
Ed,
Congrats for keeping your cool, and flying the airplane to a safe
landing. And thanks for sharing the story, so we can all learn from
your incident.
I fully agree that checklists are important. If your electrical
system design assumes that the electrical system will be in a
particular configuration for flight, then you need a checklist that
ensures this is true. And you need to religiously do every step on
that checklist before take-off.
It is also useful to have well thought out checklists for engine
failure, engine rough running, etc. For example, a well thought rough
running engine checklist would include all steps necessary to check
voltage on whatever bus(s) your engine needs.
One thing that puzzles me about your electrical system design - it
seems that your engine needs power from the Essential Bus. But it
seems like your active low voltage warning is looking at some other
bus. Why not hook the low voltage warning up the the one bus that is
really important - i.e. the Essential Bus?
Kevin Horton
On 3-Jun-09, at 15:53 , Ed Anderson wrote:
> It was suggested by one of the aeroelectric list members, Sam
> Hoskins, that the following report of an incident I had on a recent
> trip be posted to the AeroElectric list for obvious reasons - once
> you read it.
>
> I have an all-electric Rv-6A with over 10 years and close to 500
> hours on it. I based the electrical system roughly one of Bob's
> excellent designs. It initially had one alternator and two
> batteries, but removed the second battery approx 5 years ago - but,
> I did make one modification to the design that I almost had cause
> to regret.
>
> So needless to say, but I will, responsibility for design and
> incident is totally mine.
>
> But, to get on with the tale
>
>
> One the way to Texas I had an incident that ended up in with me and
> aircraft making a 7 mile engine-out glide into Craig Field (Selma,
> Alabama). NO! It was not fault of the engine or even the
> subsystems. But, the complete answer is not provided until after my
> litany of the conditions and symptoms - can you figure it out?
>
> I took off on Thursday (28 May 2009) AM from North Carolina planning
> on stopping in Mississippi to join up with two friends. After
> spending the night there, we all three would then head for Texas.
> But, the weather (as you are aware) has been laying over the
> southeast for days with rain and more rain - but I launched into it
> anyway as past Atlanta, GA things were forecast to improve..
>
> Other than dodging lines of clouds and a bit of scud running, but
> not much, I landed at Alexandria City to the southwest of Atlanta,
> GA to take on fuel. I then climbed back in and fire it up and took
> off.
>
> I noticed that during climb-out the engine would occasionally miss
> and thought the fuel might have had a bit of water in it, but was
> not really concerned. So I fly on for approx another 45 minutes and
> had just passed Selma, Alabama and old Craig Air Force base, and
> turned west toward Mississippi, when more symptoms began to occur.
>
> It started to act like a case of SAG (fouled spark plugs) where the
> rpm will drop a bit - not dangerous - just nerve racking. But,
> shortly things began to go beyond the SAG symptoms, so I though I
> might have an injector problem (like one sticking open or not
> opening at all). Since our injectors are in pairs, I tried turning
> one pair off figuring if things got better, then that pair might
> have a bad injector.
>
> So I turned off one pair and sure enough the symptoms abated a bit
> (more on this later) so I figured I had a bad injector in that
> pair. To be certain I turned this "bad" pair back on and turn off
> the "good" pair expecting the symptoms to really get bad as I would
> now be running on only the "bad" pair - much to my surprise when I
> turned off the "good" pair - the symptoms also abated. So that
> indicated it was not an injector problem - but what?
>
> About this time, I decided to turn the aircraft back around toward
> Craig Field and dodging clouds headed back with the engine
> progressively getting worst. It appeared to be a fuel problem (and
> while that is ultimately the subsystem affected - it was not the
> root cause). The fuel pressure was ranging from zero to 80 psi,
> other electrical things were also misbehaving. I check the
> voltmeter thinking perhaps the alternator had died - but it showed
> 14 volts. So back to the fuel system.
>
> Finally, the engine just stops with the prop standing still - like
> a hood ornament, I'm at around 4500-5000 MSL at this point having
> lost some altitude dodging a cloud (good old GPS just kept pointing
> to Craig Field). At that time I am 6-7 miles out from Craig Field
> at 4500 msl with a stopped prop, a crippled seat cushion and a dry
> mouth. Yes, I've been there before, but I don't think you ever get
> "use" to it. I recalled thinking -". things just can't get
> worst." when they very shortly and suddenly - did.
>
> I keyed the radio and made a call to Craig Field at 4 miles on the
> GPS but before I could get their reply, I heard a "CLANK" (without
> the engine running you can hear things like that) like a relay
> springing open (it was) and the entire panel goes dead!!!! No
> radio, no engine instruments, not even a stinking LED was lit - only
> the battery powered GPS. Can you spell "total electrical failure?"
> Talk about a lonely feeling - amazing how comforting having lights
> on and radio - you could almost convince yourself this was just a
> practice engine-out landing, but not when the panel goes dark. No
> engine gauges, no radio, nada!
>
> Well not being one inclined to panic (but I seriously considered it
> for a moment {:>)), I continued toward Craig field - I mean like
> there were lots of other alternatives. Well Once again I found
> myself in the "fortunate position" of being too high, too much
> altitude. So I put in 40 degs of flaps to steepen my rate of
> descent. But, then I decided this time that rather than do the 360 I
> had done on a previous Incident to lose "excessive" altitude, I
> would try to glide - a more or less - regular traffic pattern.
>
> However, I neglected to remember to retract the flaps. So I found
> myself on the downwind around mid-field at pattern altitude (which
> felt normal) until I suddenly realized that you CAN NOT maintain
> that pattern altitude without an engine!!! (and particularly with
> 40 deg of flaps deployed - flaps and trim are manual) Duh!
>
> I knew I could never make it to the far end of the runway before
> turning base (toward the runway) and I was losing altitude at the
> rate of 400-500 fpm, so I started my turn immediately. To make
> matters a bit worst - I had been paralleling the runway on the
> downwind leg a bit too close in - must have been the comforting
> feeling of being close to safety. This position naturally required
> a tighter turn and as I turned I saw I was likely to overshoot the
> runway and land in the grass. So I though I need to steepen this
> turn further (Yep! COFFIN CORNER was calling), but fortunately
> glanced at my airspeed indicator - to see it only registering 80 MPH
> and my rate of descent (normally 400-500 feet per minute) up to over
> 1000 feet per minute. The seat cushion suddenly vanished from this
> universe.
>
> But the REAL danger in this situation, as you all know, is your
> airspeed gets low, you are in a steep bank which greatly raises the
> stall speed - meaning at 80 mph you are close to a stall in a steep
> turn while your are not in straight and level. So I immediately
> straighten out of the turn - the little voice saying "better to land
> in the grass than get their concrete runway all messed up". So the
> immediate danger of a stall was adverted, but I was still pointed
> toward the ground with a sink rate twice as high as normal (and I've
> manage a few hard landings even with a normal sink rate).
> Fortunately, the runway was now under my nose rather than grass.
>
> The hardest thing to do when you are sinking at a 1000 fpm a couple
> hundred feet above the ground (with your nose already pointed at the
> ground) is to push the stick forward steeping the dive even more.
> But, I manage to do that and picked enough air speed and energy to
> flair to a nice touch down - not even a bump. I've always been
> amazed at what total concentration does to improve you landing {:>).
>
> Rolled to the end of the runway and had energy to roll off onto the
> taxiway. Got out, check under the aircraft for any evidence of
> leaks and started pulling the aircraft toward the far -off - hangar
> which had an airplane parked in front of it. A nice looking young
> woman comes riding a bicycle out to meet me. Hopped off and holding
> out her hand said "Hi I'm Angie, looks like we'll be spending time
> together" - so things were starting to look up {:>)
>
> So pulled the aircraft in to the hangar where the mechanic came over
> and ask what the problem was. Well, I looked at the volt meter and
> it said the battery was dead. Mechanic put on a battery charger and
> announced "Yep! The battery is dead". So we both concluded that the
> alternator must have failed and not being able to replenish the
> drain on the battery by all the electrical systems such as fuel
> pumps, injectors, ignition coils, etc had drained the battery.
>
> However, there were a few problems with the analysis of a failed
> alternator. First, the low voltage warning light never came on to
> warn of an alternator problem, 2nd I never notice the voltmeter
> showing anything other than what it should for alternator voltage -
> like around 14 volts. While checking the voltage after the Mechanic
> had charged the battery, I noticed down below that the "essential
> bus" switch was in the battery rather than the alternator position,
> so flicked it back to the alternator position figuring I must have
> accidentally kicked it while getting to some stuff in the baggage
> compartment of my RV-6A.
>
> It was getting late and being a bit tired not to mention stressed, I
> needed to get a rental car and a motel for the night. Did that, eat
> dinner and went to bed after sitting down and drawing out a problem
> tree with the entire major elements of the electrical system.
>
> So next morning I show up at the hangar early and met Ben, the
> mechanic, the battery had received a charge of only 45 minutes the
> evening before, So I suggested we charged it for another hour and
> try to start the aircraft. Ben suggested a real stress test of the
> battery and NOT charge it anymore. Made sense, so we rolled the
> aircraft out of the hangar. I hopped in, threw a half dozen
> switches and punched the starter button. The engine started on the
> first prop blade rotation - so the battery was clearly OK. The
> engine is humming like a top. So I looked over at the voltmeter
> expecting it to show only around 12.8 volts instead of the 14 volts
> a functioning alternator would produce. Much to both my and Ben's
> surprise the alternator voltage read 14 volts. We loaded the
> alternator by turning on the both l00 watt landing lights, all fuel
> pumps, the pitot heat, etc. The alternator voltage only drops
> perhaps 0.4 volts clearly indicating the alternator could carry the
> load and was OK.
>
> So here I am - battery is OK, alternator is OK - engine is purring
> normally, so clearly this was all a figment of my deteriorating
> brain cells. I loaded up the aircraft and launched to do a few
> circuits of the airport - I did so and all was operating normally
> and so I radio them I was head onward to Texas. While flying (with
> my only functional eyeball on the voltmeter), my mind could not let
> go of the problem and finally the light bulb came on.
>
> The essential bus switch had (for my entire 10 + years of
> flying)always been in the alternator position. The purpose of this
> switch is, of course, to isolate the battery from the alternator
> should the alternator fail - to prevent an alternator problem from
> draining the battery. So in event of an alternator problem, you
> move the switch from alternator to battery. Its call the essential
> bus because you only have the essential things drawing from the
> battery so you wont' drain it as quickly. The idea is to give you
> time (generally around 30 minutes) to find a safe place to land in
> case of alternator failure.
>
>
> Well, at some point I had either (not paying attention) turned the
> switch to battery thinking I was turning the voltmeter switch to
> battery(more on that below) - or accidentally had move the switch
> from alternator to battery without noticing it by kicking it, etc.
> However, it was sort of protected in its position from accidental
> activation. It must have happened during refueling - as I got approx
> 45 minutes down the road on the battery after take off before
> quality battery time started to deteriorate. As the battery voltage
> fell due to the load (and no alternator link to replenish it),
> electrical things (mainly computers first) started acting up until
> they could not longer run the engine. The injectors would not open
> fully, etc. Then as the voltage level further decreased, the master
> relay which the battery held closed and which connected the (fully
> functional) alternator to the rest of the electrical system - opened
> up and removed ALL power from the electrical system. So no radio,
> no gauges, etc.
>
> Oh, another little factor that may have contributed, the voltmeter
> has a tiny toggle switch by it marked ALT BAT1 BAT2 for checking
> alternator battery 1 and battery 2 (which I no longer fly with)
> voltages. Down below It a couple of inches and off to the right is
> the essential bus normal size toggle switch - also marked ALT BAT1
> BAT1. I normally never touch it and don't even think about it. But
> I could have reached for the voltmeter toggle thinking to check my
> battery voltage (which I do as a regular thing) and perhaps
> distracted by something reached a bit further down and instead moved
> the essential bus switch from Alternator to Battery causing this
> entire event. I know that I did not consciously do it. So it is
> either accidental or absence minded activation - either way ends
> with the same results {:>)
>
>
> Now it became clear why it didn't matter which pair of fuel
> injectors I turned off - turning off either pair improved the
> situation because it slightly reduced the electrical load by a few
> amps - and the engine ran slightly better for a few moments. The
> same thing had happened when turning off one of the EFI fuel pumps -
> but what threw me was the alternator voltage continued to be normal
> during this.
>
> After I knew the cause (switch in wrong position), I decided the
> problem was fixed so no reason to return to NC, and I just continued
> on to Texas.
>
> I know some of you may think that removing my second battery was a
> mistake - but, consider this, having another battery could have
> meant I would have been much further from a suitable airfield before
> they both went south. On the other hand, it might have caused me to
> at least think to throw the essential bus switch to the second
> battery and have the Light bulb come on. Who really knows. But, I
> have in mind a simply addition to my electrical circuit that should
> help in the future.
>
>
> I do want to state that this time when the problems started I DID
> switch fuel tanks - but naturally it had no effect because this time
> it turned out, it was not a fuel problem - not the root cause at
> least.
>
> So what are the lessons learned:
>
> . Put EVERY critical switch on your before-takeoff Check list
> . Perhaps put a guard around such critical switches to force
> conscious activation
> . Don't (hard not to) get overly focused on what you think is the
> problem - consider other possibilities. I thought it was a fuel
> problem (I even switched fuel tanks this time) - it turned out to be
> electrical in its root cause.
> . While the fuel pressure was jumping all over the place and the
> EGT was erratic and engine surging strongly indicating a fuel
> problem - the ultimate cause was electrical. Once the voltage got
> below a certain point the EC2 computer was still trying to pull the
> injectors open, but with the voltage so low it could not do it
> properly.
> . When the battery voltage dropped below a certain point, the
> master relay released and removed the alternator from the electrical
> system and the panel went dark - even though the alternator was
> still working
> . Immediately turn to the nearest airfield when serious problems
> occur - THEN work on fixing them. I only delayed for perhaps 2-3
> minutes, but that could have made a difference.
> . Watch out for Coffin Corner turn when turning base to final -
> airspeed really bleeds off fast with no engine pulling you along
> (and especially with flaps deployed!)
> . IF you change your mind about landing approach type - remember to
> reconfigure your aircraft for the last decision - I had left my
> flaps deployed when I should have remembered to retracted them. Did
> that help prevent a Coffin Corner stall and spin or would it have
> put me closer to it?
> . You must increase airspeed over the wing to get the sufficient
> energy to over come a high sink rate. Pulling back on the stick
> when the ground is staring you in the face is the natural reaction -
> but, pushing forward to lower the nose is the correct action -
> providing of course you have sufficient altitude!
> . Battery life - I had a two year old 680 odyssey battery which I
> maintain a trickle charge on whenever I'm not flying. With two EFI
> fuel pumps, boost pump, injectors, coils, EC2 and radio and just
> having started the engine before take off - this battery lasted 55
> minutes. Well, the last 5 minutes were not quality battery time.
> So in my case, 30 minutes appears to be a very realistic battery
> life. In fact, had I turned off one EFI pump and the boost pump
> would have gained a few more miles. But, if I had recognized the
> need to turn them off at that time (I normally turn them off at
> cruise altitude), then I would have known how to "fix" the problem.
> . I've decided to add a Schokkty diode between my essential bus and
> the alternator - so that as long as the alternator is producing
> sufficient voltage, then the battery will be getting some charge to
> replace the drain. I've also decided to make that switch position a
> check-list item.
>
> So what it boils down to - if I had recognized early on that it was
> an electrical problem and not focused so much on the fuel system, I
> may have noticed the essential bus switch in the wrong position.
> Force yourself to examine other possible causes (easy to say -
> harder to do).
>
> NEVER, NEVER forget that flying the airplane is the first and only
> priority in this type of situation
>
> NEVER, NEVER forget that saving your butt is the ultimately end-all
> priority. When I decided that landing on the grass was preferable
> to putting a hole in their concrete - I may have made a life-saving
> decision.
>
> So that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
>
> Fly safe, guys!!
>
> Ed
> Ed Anderson
>
>
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 3267 (20080714) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Essential Incident - Almost (Long) |
Ed, just curious,... How is it that your essential switch disconnects the
main bus? Usually, they power the essential bus but you have to shut off
the Main bus (I think) manually as a safety feature. When you heard the
CLANK which you said was the main bus relay disconnecting, that would have
been caused by the absolute drain of the battery. BUT, with the master
relay still engaged, the alternator should have still been charging the
battery? (even with the E-Bus switch thrown,... I think?
If your essential completely reroutes the current from the alternator around
the battery, then what takes up the load with the single battery off line?
Is that what the second battery (removed) was supposed to do?
Just wondering how it works?
Thanks Bill S
7a finishing / Z13/8 and other stuff
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed
Anderson
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 7:51 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Essential Incident - Almost (Long)
-->
Thanks Kevin
Could not agree with your points more. Yes, I have a pre-takeoff check list
which I do use - however, as you point out - if an item is not on it that is
critical to safe flight, then it is certainly incomplete.
I do not have an in-flight emergency check list, but will certainly give
that some serious thought - it would be helpful if it just isolated whether
the problem was the fuel system, electrical system and their subsystems.
Another good suggestion
Ah, good analysis, Kevin. You are correct, my low voltage light is hooked to
my alternator circuit and not the essential bus. The logic (if there was
any) was that if the alternator started to fail then the warning light would
warn me before I started to drain the battery. However, in this case, the
alternator was continuing to produce 14 V so naturally the low voltage light
never came on. So again, I agree on all the points you made.
Just goes to show you how even things designed to make it safer can do the
opposite under certain conditions. Clearly, there are a few things that I
need to change {:>)
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
http://www.flyrotary.com/
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin
Horton
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Essential Incident - Almost (Long)
-->
Ed,
Congrats for keeping your cool, and flying the airplane to a safe landing.
And thanks for sharing the story, so we can all learn from your incident.
I fully agree that checklists are important. If your electrical system
design assumes that the electrical system will be in a particular
configuration for flight, then you need a checklist that ensures this is
true. And you need to religiously do every step on that checklist before
take-off.
It is also useful to have well thought out checklists for engine failure,
engine rough running, etc. For example, a well thought rough running engine
checklist would include all steps necessary to check voltage on whatever
bus(s) your engine needs.
One thing that puzzles me about your electrical system design - it seems
that your engine needs power from the Essential Bus. But it seems like your
active low voltage warning is looking at some other bus. Why not hook the
low voltage warning up the the one bus that is really important - i.e. the
Essential Bus?
Kevin Horton
On 3-Jun-09, at 15:53 , Ed Anderson wrote:
> It was suggested by one of the aeroelectric list members, Sam Hoskins,
> that the following report of an incident I had on a recent trip be
> posted to the AeroElectric list for obvious reasons - once you read
> it.
>
> I have an all-electric Rv-6A with over 10 years and close to 500
> hours on it. I based the electrical system roughly one of Bob's
> excellent designs. It initially had one alternator and two
> batteries, but removed the second battery approx 5 years ago - but, I
> did make one modification to the design that I almost had cause to
> regret.
>
> So needless to say, but I will, responsibility for design and
> incident is totally mine.
>
> But, to get on with the tale
>
>
> One the way to Texas I had an incident that ended up in with me and
> aircraft making a 7 mile engine-out glide into Craig Field (Selma,
> Alabama). NO! It was not fault of the engine or even the subsystems.
> But, the complete answer is not provided until after my litany of the
> conditions and symptoms - can you figure it out?
>
> I took off on Thursday (28 May 2009) AM from North Carolina planning
> on stopping in Mississippi to join up with two friends. After
> spending the night there, we all three would then head for Texas.
> But, the weather (as you are aware) has been laying over the southeast
> for days with rain and more rain - but I launched into it anyway as
> past Atlanta, GA things were forecast to improve..
>
> Other than dodging lines of clouds and a bit of scud running, but not
> much, I landed at Alexandria City to the southwest of Atlanta, GA to
> take on fuel. I then climbed back in and fire it up and took off.
>
> I noticed that during climb-out the engine would occasionally miss and
> thought the fuel might have had a bit of water in it, but was not
> really concerned. So I fly on for approx another 45 minutes and had
> just passed Selma, Alabama and old Craig Air Force base, and turned
> west toward Mississippi, when more symptoms began to occur.
>
> It started to act like a case of SAG (fouled spark plugs) where the
> rpm will drop a bit - not dangerous - just nerve racking. But,
> shortly things began to go beyond the SAG symptoms, so I though I
> might have an injector problem (like one sticking open or not opening
> at all). Since our injectors are in pairs, I tried turning one pair
> off figuring if things got better, then that pair might have a bad
> injector.
>
> So I turned off one pair and sure enough the symptoms abated a bit
> (more on this later) so I figured I had a bad injector in that pair.
> To be certain I turned this "bad" pair back on and turn off the "good"
> pair expecting the symptoms to really get bad as I would now be
> running on only the "bad" pair - much to my surprise when I turned off
> the "good" pair - the symptoms also abated. So that indicated it was
> not an injector problem - but what?
>
> About this time, I decided to turn the aircraft back around toward
> Craig Field and dodging clouds headed back with the engine
> progressively getting worst. It appeared to be a fuel problem (and
> while that is ultimately the subsystem affected - it was not the root
> cause). The fuel pressure was ranging from zero to 80 psi, other
> electrical things were also misbehaving. I check the voltmeter
> thinking perhaps the alternator had died - but it showed
> 14 volts. So back to the fuel system.
>
> Finally, the engine just stops with the prop standing still - like a
> hood ornament, I'm at around 4500-5000 MSL at this point having lost
> some altitude dodging a cloud (good old GPS just kept pointing to
> Craig Field). At that time I am 6-7 miles out from Craig Field at
> 4500 msl with a stopped prop, a crippled seat cushion and a dry mouth.
> Yes, I've been there before, but I don't think you ever get "use" to
> it. I recalled thinking -". things just can't get
> worst." when they very shortly and suddenly - did.
>
> I keyed the radio and made a call to Craig Field at 4 miles on the GPS
> but before I could get their reply, I heard a "CLANK" (without the
> engine running you can hear things like that) like a relay
> springing open (it was) and the entire panel goes dead!!!! No
> radio, no engine instruments, not even a stinking LED was lit - only
> the battery powered GPS. Can you spell "total electrical failure?"
> Talk about a lonely feeling - amazing how comforting having lights on
> and radio - you could almost convince yourself this was just a
> practice engine-out landing, but not when the panel goes dark. No
> engine gauges, no radio, nada!
>
> Well not being one inclined to panic (but I seriously considered it
> for a moment {:>)), I continued toward Craig field - I mean like there
> were lots of other alternatives. Well Once again I found myself in
> the "fortunate position" of being too high, too much altitude. So I
> put in 40 degs of flaps to steepen my rate of descent. But, then I
> decided this time that rather than do the 360 I had done on a previous
> Incident to lose "excessive" altitude, I would try to glide - a more
> or less - regular traffic pattern.
>
> However, I neglected to remember to retract the flaps. So I found
> myself on the downwind around mid-field at pattern altitude (which
> felt normal) until I suddenly realized that you CAN NOT maintain that
> pattern altitude without an engine!!! (and particularly with 40 deg
> of flaps deployed - flaps and trim are manual) Duh!
>
> I knew I could never make it to the far end of the runway before
> turning base (toward the runway) and I was losing altitude at the
> rate of 400-500 fpm, so I started my turn immediately. To make
> matters a bit worst - I had been paralleling the runway on the
> downwind leg a bit too close in - must have been the comforting
> feeling of being close to safety. This position naturally required a
> tighter turn and as I turned I saw I was likely to overshoot the
> runway and land in the grass. So I though I need to steepen this turn
> further (Yep! COFFIN CORNER was calling), but fortunately glanced at
> my airspeed indicator - to see it only registering 80 MPH and my rate
> of descent (normally 400-500 feet per minute) up to over 1000 feet per
> minute. The seat cushion suddenly vanished from this universe.
>
> But the REAL danger in this situation, as you all know, is your
> airspeed gets low, you are in a steep bank which greatly raises the
> stall speed - meaning at 80 mph you are close to a stall in a steep
> turn while your are not in straight and level. So I immediately
> straighten out of the turn - the little voice saying "better to land
> in the grass than get their concrete runway all messed up". So the
> immediate danger of a stall was adverted, but I was still pointed
> toward the ground with a sink rate twice as high as normal (and I've
> manage a few hard landings even with a normal sink rate).
> Fortunately, the runway was now under my nose rather than grass.
>
> The hardest thing to do when you are sinking at a 1000 fpm a couple
> hundred feet above the ground (with your nose already pointed at the
> ground) is to push the stick forward steeping the dive even more.
> But, I manage to do that and picked enough air speed and energy to
> flair to a nice touch down - not even a bump. I've always been amazed
> at what total concentration does to improve you landing {:>).
>
> Rolled to the end of the runway and had energy to roll off onto the
> taxiway. Got out, check under the aircraft for any evidence of
> leaks and started pulling the aircraft toward the far -off - hangar
> which had an airplane parked in front of it. A nice looking young
> woman comes riding a bicycle out to meet me. Hopped off and holding
> out her hand said "Hi I'm Angie, looks like we'll be spending time
> together" - so things were starting to look up {:>)
>
> So pulled the aircraft in to the hangar where the mechanic came over
> and ask what the problem was. Well, I looked at the volt meter and it
> said the battery was dead. Mechanic put on a battery charger and
> announced "Yep! The battery is dead". So we both concluded that the
> alternator must have failed and not being able to replenish the drain
> on the battery by all the electrical systems such as fuel pumps,
> injectors, ignition coils, etc had drained the battery.
>
> However, there were a few problems with the analysis of a failed
> alternator. First, the low voltage warning light never came on to
> warn of an alternator problem, 2nd I never notice the voltmeter
> showing anything other than what it should for alternator voltage -
> like around 14 volts. While checking the voltage after the Mechanic
> had charged the battery, I noticed down below that the "essential bus"
> switch was in the battery rather than the alternator position, so
> flicked it back to the alternator position figuring I must have
> accidentally kicked it while getting to some stuff in the baggage
> compartment of my RV-6A.
>
> It was getting late and being a bit tired not to mention stressed, I
> needed to get a rental car and a motel for the night. Did that, eat
> dinner and went to bed after sitting down and drawing out a problem
> tree with the entire major elements of the electrical system.
>
> So next morning I show up at the hangar early and met Ben, the
> mechanic, the battery had received a charge of only 45 minutes the
> evening before, So I suggested we charged it for another hour and try
> to start the aircraft. Ben suggested a real stress test of the
> battery and NOT charge it anymore. Made sense, so we rolled the
> aircraft out of the hangar. I hopped in, threw a half dozen switches
> and punched the starter button. The engine started on the first prop
> blade rotation - so the battery was clearly OK. The
> engine is humming like a top. So I looked over at the voltmeter
> expecting it to show only around 12.8 volts instead of the 14 volts a
> functioning alternator would produce. Much to both my and Ben's
> surprise the alternator voltage read 14 volts. We loaded the
> alternator by turning on the both l00 watt landing lights, all fuel
> pumps, the pitot heat, etc. The alternator voltage only drops perhaps
> 0.4 volts clearly indicating the alternator could carry the load and
> was OK.
>
> So here I am - battery is OK, alternator is OK - engine is purring
> normally, so clearly this was all a figment of my deteriorating brain
> cells. I loaded up the aircraft and launched to do a few circuits of
> the airport - I did so and all was operating normally and so I radio
> them I was head onward to Texas. While flying (with my only
> functional eyeball on the voltmeter), my mind could not let go of the
> problem and finally the light bulb came on.
>
> The essential bus switch had (for my entire 10 + years of
> flying)always been in the alternator position. The purpose of this
> switch is, of course, to isolate the battery from the alternator
> should the alternator fail - to prevent an alternator problem from
> draining the battery. So in event of an alternator problem, you move
> the switch from alternator to battery. Its call the essential bus
> because you only have the essential things drawing from the battery so
> you wont' drain it as quickly. The idea is to give you time
> (generally around 30 minutes) to find a safe place to land in case of
> alternator failure.
>
>
> Well, at some point I had either (not paying attention) turned the
> switch to battery thinking I was turning the voltmeter switch to
> battery(more on that below) - or accidentally had move the switch
> from alternator to battery without noticing it by kicking it, etc.
> However, it was sort of protected in its position from accidental
> activation. It must have happened during refueling - as I got approx
> 45 minutes down the road on the battery after take off before quality
> battery time started to deteriorate. As the battery voltage fell due
> to the load (and no alternator link to replenish it), electrical
> things (mainly computers first) started acting up until they could not
> longer run the engine. The injectors would not open fully, etc. Then
> as the voltage level further decreased, the master relay which the
> battery held closed and which connected the (fully
> functional) alternator to the rest of the electrical system - opened
> up and removed ALL power from the electrical system. So no radio, no
> gauges, etc.
>
> Oh, another little factor that may have contributed, the voltmeter
> has a tiny toggle switch by it marked ALT BAT1 BAT2 for checking
> alternator battery 1 and battery 2 (which I no longer fly with)
> voltages. Down below It a couple of inches and off to the right is
> the essential bus normal size toggle switch - also marked ALT BAT1
> BAT1. I normally never touch it and don't even think about it. But I
> could have reached for the voltmeter toggle thinking to check my
> battery voltage (which I do as a regular thing) and perhaps distracted
> by something reached a bit further down and instead moved the
> essential bus switch from Alternator to Battery causing this entire
> event. I know that I did not consciously do it. So it is either
> accidental or absence minded activation - either way ends with the
> same results {:>)
>
>
> Now it became clear why it didn't matter which pair of fuel injectors
> I turned off - turning off either pair improved the situation because
> it slightly reduced the electrical load by a few amps - and the engine
> ran slightly better for a few moments. The same thing had happened
> when turning off one of the EFI fuel pumps - but what threw me was the
> alternator voltage continued to be normal during this.
>
> After I knew the cause (switch in wrong position), I decided the
> problem was fixed so no reason to return to NC, and I just continued
> on to Texas.
>
> I know some of you may think that removing my second battery was a
> mistake - but, consider this, having another battery could have meant
> I would have been much further from a suitable airfield before they
> both went south. On the other hand, it might have caused me to at
> least think to throw the essential bus switch to the second battery
> and have the Light bulb come on. Who really knows. But, I have in
> mind a simply addition to my electrical circuit that should help in
> the future.
>
>
> I do want to state that this time when the problems started I DID
> switch fuel tanks - but naturally it had no effect because this time
> it turned out, it was not a fuel problem - not the root cause at
> least.
>
> So what are the lessons learned:
>
> . Put EVERY critical switch on your before-takeoff Check list
> . Perhaps put a guard around such critical switches to force
> conscious activation
> . Don't (hard not to) get overly focused on what you think is the
> problem - consider other possibilities. I thought it was a fuel
> problem (I even switched fuel tanks this time) - it turned out to be
> electrical in its root cause.
> . While the fuel pressure was jumping all over the place and the EGT
> was erratic and engine surging strongly indicating a fuel problem -
> the ultimate cause was electrical. Once the voltage got below a
> certain point the EC2 computer was still trying to pull the injectors
> open, but with the voltage so low it could not do it properly.
> . When the battery voltage dropped below a certain point, the master
> relay released and removed the alternator from the electrical system
> and the panel went dark - even though the alternator was still working
> . Immediately turn to the nearest airfield when serious problems
> occur - THEN work on fixing them. I only delayed for perhaps 2-3
> minutes, but that could have made a difference.
> . Watch out for Coffin Corner turn when turning base to final -
> airspeed really bleeds off fast with no engine pulling you along (and
> especially with flaps deployed!)
> . IF you change your mind about landing approach type - remember to
> reconfigure your aircraft for the last decision - I had left my flaps
> deployed when I should have remembered to retracted them. Did that
> help prevent a Coffin Corner stall and spin or would it have put me
> closer to it?
> . You must increase airspeed over the wing to get the sufficient
> energy to over come a high sink rate. Pulling back on the stick when
> the ground is staring you in the face is the natural reaction - but,
> pushing forward to lower the nose is the correct action - providing of
> course you have sufficient altitude!
> . Battery life - I had a two year old 680 odyssey battery which I
> maintain a trickle charge on whenever I'm not flying. With two EFI
> fuel pumps, boost pump, injectors, coils, EC2 and radio and just
> having started the engine before take off - this battery lasted 55
> minutes. Well, the last 5 minutes were not quality battery time.
> So in my case, 30 minutes appears to be a very realistic battery life.
> In fact, had I turned off one EFI pump and the boost pump would have
> gained a few more miles. But, if I had recognized the need to turn
> them off at that time (I normally turn them off at cruise altitude),
> then I would have known how to "fix" the problem.
> . I've decided to add a Schokkty diode between my essential bus and
> the alternator - so that as long as the alternator is producing
> sufficient voltage, then the battery will be getting some charge to
> replace the drain. I've also decided to make that switch position a
> check-list item.
>
> So what it boils down to - if I had recognized early on that it was
> an electrical problem and not focused so much on the fuel system, I
> may have noticed the essential bus switch in the wrong position.
> Force yourself to examine other possible causes (easy to say - harder
> to do).
>
> NEVER, NEVER forget that flying the airplane is the first and only
> priority in this type of situation
>
> NEVER, NEVER forget that saving your butt is the ultimately end-all
> priority. When I decided that landing on the grass was preferable to
> putting a hole in their concrete - I may have made a life-saving
> decision.
>
> So that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
>
> Fly safe, guys!!
>
> Ed
> Ed Anderson
>
>
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 3267 (20080714) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Etienne Phillips <etienne.phillips(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Essential Incident - Almost (Long) |
Hi Ed
Aren't you glad you weren't flying at night! :-)
A diagram of your electrical system as it was would help us
understand what you did, and why its design caused the failure... Of
particular interest is why switching on the e-bus disconnected the
alternator. I also can't seem to make out why when the main bus still
had power from the alternator, the contactor died when the e-bus
voltage dropped. It may prompt Bob to suggest a better solution to
what you're planning :-D
Not pointing fingers here, I just can't visualise how it's all hooked
up!
Thanks
Etienne
On 03 Jun 2009, at 9:53 PM, Ed Anderson wrote:
> It was suggested by one of the aeroelectric list members, Sam
> Hoskins, that the following report of an incident I had on a
> recent trip be posted to the AeroElectric list for obvious reasons
> ' once you read it.
>
> I have an all-electric Rv-6A with over 10 years and close to 500
> hours on it. I based the electrical system roughly one of Bob=92s
> excellent designs. It initially had one alternator and two
> batteries, but removed the second battery approx 5 years ago ' but,
> I did make one modification to the design that I almost had cause
> to regret.
>
> So needless to say, but I will, responsibility for design and
> incident is totally mine.
>
> But, to get on with the tale
>
>
> One the way to Texas I had an incident that ended up in with me and
> aircraft making a 7 mile engine-out glide into Craig Field (Selma,
> Alabama). NO! It was not fault of the engine or even the
> subsystems. But, the complete answer is not provided until after
> my litany of the conditions and symptoms ' can you figure it out?
>
>
> Fly safe, guys!!
>
> Ed
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Hand" <chris_hand(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | noisy tach signal |
I'm having a lot of trouble getting a good tach reading on my IK-2000 engine
monitor using a Hall effect sensor on a Slick mag and am looking for
suggestions on what to try next. I've tried multiple different wiring
routings and tried 0.1 uF capacitor between signal lead and ground as well
as between +5V power lead and ground, with no success (problem actually got
worse when I added the caps so I took them back out).
History is that I initially had dual P-mag setup with tach sensor reading
off right P-mag. Tach worked fine in that configuration. At about 26 hours
total time I replaced the left P-mag with an impulse coupled Slick mag,
still taking tach signal off right side P-mag. In that configuration I had
noise issues causing problems with the tach reading at power settings below
about 1800 rpm (engine / prop combo is O-360, fixed pitch Sensenich). The
issue only showed up on throttling back when in flight; didn't see it on the
ground except after landing when I had the problem in flight. Those tach
problems were resolved by tying the Slick mag p-lead up a little further
away from the tach sensor leads (although they were already seperated by at
least 6 or 8 inches at closest approach).
This past weekend I changed out the right side P-mag for non-impulse coupled
Slick mag and installed a Hall effect sensor in the mag vent hole for
feeding the IK-2000 tach sensor lines. This was the sensor suggested by
IK-Technologies. Ground testing shows good tach readings only at rpms
above about 1000-1200 rpm but after 10 or 15 minutes of flight time it
starts reading low and erratic at power settings below about 2000 rpm,
becoming completely unusable at approach and idle power settings. If I
secure the right mag at any time (ground or in-flight testing), the tach
reading is steady and appears accurate. So the noise is being introduced by
the right mag when it is operating, but with the mag not firing, the sensor
installed on that mag works great.
I am using the factory supplied sensor wiring harness, which uses twisted
pair wiring with none of the leads being shielded. I had extra lengths in
this harness when I installed it so have the extra length coiled up under
the forward top skin. For lack of any other ideas, I'm thinking about
removing the factory harness and building a new one using 3-wire shielded
cable for the tach sensor lines.
Has anybody else on the list run into tach signal noise issues when using
standard mags with Hall effect sensor? Any suggestions on what else I can
do to fix this? (aside from going to a different sensor type or stand-alone
tachometer)
Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
Chris
RV-6A, N731CK, 55 hrs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "j. davis" <jd(at)lawsonimaging.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Stereo to Mono |
bakerocb(at)cox.net wrote:
>
> 5/30/2009
>
> Hello Don, You wrote: "I want to install a plug in my panel to plug my
> stereo Walkman into but my intercom (PM1000 II) is mono."
>
> Here is one way to solve that problem --
>
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102669
>
> This adapter will put the output of a mono jack on your panel into both
> sides of your stereo Walkman.
>
Greetings... I'm a bit confused on this subject after reading this thread and
similar threads in other lists. I have the same objective: plug my iPod into my
Xcom 760's audio in. The Xcom's documentation says to use a 3.5mm mono jack in
combination with a stereo-to-mono adapter plug. My thought was to eliminate the
adapter plug by simply jumping the left/right channel pins on the jack itself,
and this does indeed give [seemingly] good results with both channels clearly
heard. But lately I've read that this may damage the iPod, and I should be using
resistors/capacitors and/or the adaptor, as though the adaptor had some
components built into it's small, moulded little case. I'm relatively sure that
this adaptor plug is doing nothing but physically joining the left and right
channels from the stereo plug into a single tip on the mono plug, and is in no
way electronically 'magic'.
Not wanting to damage my iPod, I'd be interested to know the science behind all
the posts saying 'don't do it' (wire the left and right together), use the
adaptor plug. Thanks!
--
Regards, J.
Sonex C-FJNJ
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| J. Davis, M.Sc. | (computer science) |
| *NIX consulting, SysAdmin | email: jd at lawsonimaging.ca |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
and now... Deep Thought #39, by Jack Handy
Probably the earliest flyswatters were nothing more than some sort of
striking surface attached to the end of a long stick.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Essential Incident - Almost (Long) |
| From: | Michael W Stewart <mike.stewart(at)us.ibm.com> |
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PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0NCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg=
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: [Probable SPAM] Re: Lightweight Aux Battery? |
| From: | "sonex293" <sonex293(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks for your input Glenn.
--
Michael
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246752#246752
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Essential Incident - Almost (Long) |
Ed,
Great story - thanks for sharing.
Thanks also for your insight into the problem, analysis, and solutions.
Stan Sutterfield
**************Limited Time Offers: Save big on popular laptops at Dell
%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B215221161%3B37268813%3By)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Kitfox IV - Jabiru 2200 - Icom IC-A210 Reciving noise |
!?
| From: | "EdgePerformance" <post(at)edgeperformance.no> |
Hi,
I`m new to this forum, but I really hope someone can help me out.
I have just completed my Jabiru 2200 turbo rebuilding on my Kitfox IV.
Then I mounted my new Icom IC-A210 transceiver along with a new instrument panel
and new wiring.
I send crystal clear messages and receive perfectly on ground with engine of. But
as soon as I start my engine I get either ignition noise or alternator noise.
The sound adjusts in harmony with the throttle settingrpm.
I have changed spark wires, used shielded tefzel wires on all avionics and ignition
kill switches. Used shielded wires on headset and microphone jacks, ptt etc.
I have also shielded the AC current wires from the alternator or stator plate
if you like. And still there is no sign to reduce in headset noise.
This happens no matter if the transponder, GPS, instruments etc is ON or OFF.
Also what i noticed is when transmitting a message I bearly hear myself in the
headset, though the intergrated intercom works well.
Hope anyone has experience either with the Icom IC-A210 and noise or the jabiru
engine in kitfox IV ?
Great full for all tips and help !
--------
Kitfox IV w\ Jabiru 2200 Turbo\Aerocarb
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246794#246794
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kitfox IV - Jabiru 2200 - Icom IC-A210 Reciving |
noise !?
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Hello -----,
I think it's important to identify whether the source of the noise is
ignition or alternator..
It looks like that engine has dual transistorized magnetos. Does your
installation allow for defeating one of those systems while the engine is
running? If so, you might notice a decrease in the noise by turning off
one or the other system while the engine is running.
Also, is it possible to disable the alternator while the engine is running?
After you find the source of the noise, you'll need to identify the method
of coupling that noise into the audio system. Conducted or radiated?
This might get you pointed in the right direction..
Regards,
Matt-
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I`m new to this forum, but I really hope someone can help me out.
>
> I have just completed my Jabiru 2200 turbo rebuilding on my Kitfox IV.
> Then I mounted my new Icom IC-A210 transceiver along with a new instrument
> panel and new wiring.
>
> I send crystal clear messages and receive perfectly on ground with engine
> of. But as soon as I start my engine I get either ignition noise or
> alternator noise. The sound adjusts in harmony with the throttle
> settingrpm.
>
> I have changed spark wires, used shielded tefzel wires on all avionics and
> ignition kill switches. Used shielded wires on headset and microphone
> jacks, ptt etc. I have also shielded the AC current wires from the
> alternator or stator plate if you like. And still there is no sign to
> reduce in headset noise.
>
> This happens no matter if the transponder, GPS, instruments etc is ON or
> OFF.
>
> Also what i noticed is when transmitting a message I bearly hear myself in
> the headset, though the intergrated intercom works well.
>
> Hope anyone has experience either with the Icom IC-A210 and noise or the
> jabiru engine in kitfox IV ?
>
> Great full for all tips and help !
>
> --------
> Kitfox IV w\ Jabiru 2200 Turbo\Aerocarb
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246794#246794
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kitfox IV - Jabiru 2200 - Icom IC-A210 Reciving |
noise
| From: | "EdgePerformance" <post(at)edgeperformance.no> |
Hi,
Do you mean if i have one ignition switch for each coil ? I have tried to turn
off one and one coil but that does`t reduce any noise.
I`ll try charging my battery full and take a quick flight with the alternator wires
off.
At last I will try to add an extra battery and only connect the radio to it.
--------
Kitfox IV w\ Jabiru 2200 Turbo\Aerocarb
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246808#246808
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Kitfox IV - Jabiru 2200 - Icom IC-A210 Reciving |
noise
I was about to suggest that..I.e if you connect the radio directly to an isolated
battery and the noise is still there than clearly it is airborne transmitted..If
it goes away its probably coming thru the power/ground wires
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of EdgePerformance
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 11:29 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Kitfox IV - Jabiru 2200 - Icom IC-A210 Reciving
noise
-->
Hi,
Do you mean if i have one ignition switch for each coil ? I have tried to turn
off one and one coil but that does`t reduce any noise.
I`ll try charging my battery full and take a quick flight with the alternator wires
off.
At last I will try to add an extra battery and only connect the radio to it.
--------
Kitfox IV w\ Jabiru 2200 Turbo\Aerocarb
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246808#246808
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kitfox IV - Jabiru 2200 - Icom IC-A210 Reciving |
noise
| From: | "EdgePerformance" <post(at)edgeperformance.no> |
I will give it a try tomorrow. But I cant figure what I have done wrong. Radio
is connected right to the battery, all wires out of the molex connector are shielded,
jacks to headsets are isolated with plastic washers through the front
panel, have a grounded 50x45cm ground plate inside the body with the antenna screwed
right in the center of the plate with the coaxial cable shield grounded
straight to the ground plate.
Heres a really simple sketch of how I have wired my antenna.
--------
Kitfox IV w\ Jabiru 2200 Turbo\Aerocarb
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246820#246820
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/antenna_ground_plate_163.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kitfox IV - Jabiru 2200 - Icom IC-A210 Reciving |
noise !?
| From: | "EdgePerformance" <post(at)edgeperformance.no> |
Here is a simple sketch of my ground plate and antenna wiring.
--------
Kitfox IV w\ Jabiru 2200 Turbo\Aerocarb
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246821#246821
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/antenna_ground_plate_191.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kitfox IV - Jabiru 2200 - Icom IC-A210 |
Reciving noise
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Just goes to show you that "shielding everything" isn't a magic bullet.
It's not clear to me from your description that the noise is present when
the radio is receiving as well as transmitting.
Other ideas:
- Does disconnecting the antenna mitigate received noise?
- Have you verified that you don't have a "hot mag" by turning off both
ignitions while the engine is running - the engine should quit. (Maybe
this is normally how you stop the engine - I don't know if your fuel
delivery system allows "idle-cutoff"...) Additionally, if the noise is
from the ignition system (which I am now doubting), turning both of the
switches off should douse the electrical noise as well.
Regards,
Matt-
>
>
> I will give it a try tomorrow. But I cant figure what I have done wrong.
Radio is connected right to the battery, all wires out of the molex
connector are shielded, jacks to headsets are isolated with plastic
washers through the front panel, have a grounded 50x45cm ground plate
inside the body with the antenna screwed right in the center of the
plate
> with the coaxial cable shield grounded straight to the ground plate.
>
> Heres a really simple sketch of how I have wired my antenna.
>
> --------
> Kitfox IV w\ Jabiru 2200 Turbo\Aerocarb
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246820#246820
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/antenna_ground_plate_163.jpg
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kitfox IV - Jabiru 2200 - Icom IC-A210 Reciving |
n
| From: | "EdgePerformance" <post(at)edgeperformance.no> |
Hi,
i have the aerocarb so normally i use idle-cutoff but both magnetic coils are new
and they work fine. Ignition cutoff work great on both cold and hot engine
no matter what throttle setting.
What do you mean by antenna mitigate ? My English aren't that great. (Poor Norwegian).
I tried to turn off both ignition switches in flight and the engine didn't get
to stop completely before the transmission was over, but I could clearly hear
the noise frequency becoming lower. But that could also be both alternator and
ignition I believe.
I really hope I can figure this out soon so that I can go out and fly my new build
jabiru 2200 turbo kitfox IV.
--------
Kitfox IV w\ Jabiru 2200 Turbo\Aerocarb
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246830#246830
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kitfox IV - Jabiru 2200 - Icom IC-A210 Reciving |
noise
| From: | Ian <ixb(at)videotron.ca> |
Are the plastic washers the type with a raised bit that goes through the
hole? They generally come with the jack connectors. Otherwise the
ground side of the plug can ground through the side of the hole.
Ian Brown
Bromont
Quebec
>
> I will give it a try tomorrow. But I cant figure what I have done wrong. Radio
is connected right to the battery, all wires out of the molex connector are
shielded, jacks to headsets are isolated with plastic washers through the front
panel, have a grounded 50x45cm ground plate inside the body with the antenna
screwed right in the center of the plate with the coaxial cable shield grounded
straight to the ground plate.
>
> Heres a really simple sketch of how I have wired my antenna.
>
> --------
> Kitfox IV w\ Jabiru 2200 Turbo\Aerocarb
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246820#246820
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/antenna_ground_plate_163.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fwd: Jabiru 3300 starter |
| From: | jaybannist(at)cs.com |
Just wondering - Did anyone see this post ?
-----Original Message-----
From: jaybannist(at)cs.com
Sent: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 7:37 pm
Subject: Jabiru 3300 starter
I am helping a friend put together a power schematic for a Jabiru 3300.? I have
seen several sample schematics that have both a starter solenoid and a starter
contactor.? Is this really what is required and if so why ?? Is a starter contactor
any different than a battery contactor?
Jay Bannister
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Jabiru 3300 starter |
Yes but it has been discussed before and we all hoped someone else would
answer... ;)
A conventional battery contactor draws almost 1 amp and can be on
continuously. A starter contactor is quicker acting, draws more like 4
amps, and is intermittant duty. ie it will overheat and fail if
energized continuously.
Your call on whether you need a starter contactor as well as a starter
solenoid. Is there any chance that both are required for your warranty?
I did not use a starter contactor on my subaru but I can kill a stuck on
starter by killing a "battery" contactor on my bird. Solenoids on
starters do occasionally but rarely stick on but the same is true for
starter contactors. I judge the risk quite low for an automotive type
starter solenoid and a glance at the voltage after start up confirms
disengagement.
Ken
jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:
> Just wondering - Did anyone see this post ?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jaybannist(at)cs.com
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 7:37 pm
> Subject: Jabiru 3300 starter
>
> I am helping a friend put together a power schematic for a Jabiru 3300.
> I have seen several sample schematics that have both a starter solenoid
> and a starter contactor. Is this really what is required and if so why
> ? Is a starter contactor any different than a battery contactor?
>
> Jay Bannister
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> E
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Jabiru 3300 starter |
| From: | jaybannist(at)cs.com |
Ken,
Thanks for the reply.? Because I have a Corvair engine, in the past, I have not
looked at posts dealing specifically with Jabiru systems.? I think my confusion
comes from the fact that the starter solenoid on my engine is tied to the started
and there is no starter contactor.? I think from looking at the latest
Jabiru wiring diagram, one or the other is required, but not both.? I'm just not
sure what is included in the Jabiru FWF package.
Thanks again - Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
?
Yes but it has been discussed before and we all hoped someone else would
answer... ;)?
?
A conventional battery contactor draws almost 1 amp and can be on
continuously. A starter contactor is quicker acting, draws more like 4
amps, and is intermittant duty. ie it will overheat and fail if
energized continuously.?
?
Your call on whether you need a starter contactor as well as a starter
solenoid. Is there any chance that both are required for your warranty?
I did not use a starter contactor on my subaru but I can kill a stuck on
starter by killing a "battery" contactor on my bird. Solenoids on
starters do occasionally but rarely stick on but the same is true for
starter contactors. I judge the risk quite low for an automotive type
starter solenoid and a glance at the voltage after start up confirms
disengagement.?
?
Ken?
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Essential Incident - Almost (Long) |
Hi Bill,
Perhaps a bit clear explanation of my circuit. When I move my essential bus
switch from ALT (alternator) to BAT1 (battery1), it removes the link between
battery and alternator. However, the master relay still closed by the
battery voltage, so this provides a path for the alternator to continue to
feed the rest of the (none essential systems - such as landing lights,
strobe light, transponder, etc).
When the battery voltage dropped low enough it was unable to hold the
master relay closed - which opened removing alternator voltage from the rest
of the system. By that time, the battery was too low to support the
essential systems such as my engine and to include the radio.
When the battery is disconnected from the alternator, there is no noticeable
variation in my alternator voltage indicating that the none-essential
subsystems apparently provide sufficient load stability. That's my best
analysis of the system.
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
http://www.flyrotary.com/
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Schlatterer
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 10:00 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Essential Incident - Almost (Long)
Ed, just curious,... How is it that your essential switch disconnects the
main bus? Usually, they power the essential bus but you have to shut off
the Main bus (I think) manually as a safety feature. When you heard the
CLANK which you said was the main bus relay disconnecting, that would have
been caused by the absolute drain of the battery. BUT, with the master
relay still engaged, the alternator should have still been charging the
battery? (even with the E-Bus switch thrown,... I think?
If your essential completely reroutes the current from the alternator around
the battery, then what takes up the load with the single battery off line?
Is that what the second battery (removed) was supposed to do?
Just wondering how it works?
Thanks Bill S
7a finishing / Z13/8 and other stuff
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed
Anderson
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 7:51 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Essential Incident - Almost (Long)
-->
Thanks Kevin
Could not agree with your points more. Yes, I have a pre-takeoff check list
which I do use - however, as you point out - if an item is not on it that is
critical to safe flight, then it is certainly incomplete.
I do not have an in-flight emergency check list, but will certainly give
that some serious thought - it would be helpful if it just isolated whether
the problem was the fuel system, electrical system and their subsystems.
Another good suggestion
Ah, good analysis, Kevin. You are correct, my low voltage light is hooked to
my alternator circuit and not the essential bus. The logic (if there was
any) was that if the alternator started to fail then the warning light would
warn me before I started to drain the battery. However, in this case, the
alternator was continuing to produce 14 V so naturally the low voltage light
never came on. So again, I agree on all the points you made.
Just goes to show you how even things designed to make it safer can do the
opposite under certain conditions. Clearly, there are a few things that I
need to change {:>)
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
http://www.flyrotary.com/
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin
Horton
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Essential Incident - Almost (Long)
-->
Ed,
Congrats for keeping your cool, and flying the airplane to a safe landing.
And thanks for sharing the story, so we can all learn from your incident.
I fully agree that checklists are important. If your electrical system
design assumes that the electrical system will be in a particular
configuration for flight, then you need a checklist that ensures this is
true. And you need to religiously do every step on that checklist before
take-off.
It is also useful to have well thought out checklists for engine failure,
engine rough running, etc. For example, a well thought rough running engine
checklist would include all steps necessary to check voltage on whatever
bus(s) your engine needs.
One thing that puzzles me about your electrical system design - it seems
that your engine needs power from the Essential Bus. But it seems like your
active low voltage warning is looking at some other bus. Why not hook the
low voltage warning up the the one bus that is really important - i.e. the
Essential Bus?
Kevin Horton
On 3-Jun-09, at 15:53 , Ed Anderson wrote:
> It was suggested by one of the aeroelectric list members, Sam Hoskins,
> that the following report of an incident I had on a recent trip be
> posted to the AeroElectric list for obvious reasons - once you read
> it.
>
> I have an all-electric Rv-6A with over 10 years and close to 500
> hours on it. I based the electrical system roughly one of Bob's
> excellent designs. It initially had one alternator and two
> batteries, but removed the second battery approx 5 years ago - but, I
> did make one modification to the design that I almost had cause to
> regret.
>
> So needless to say, but I will, responsibility for design and
> incident is totally mine.
>
> But, to get on with the tale
>
>
> One the way to Texas I had an incident that ended up in with me and
> aircraft making a 7 mile engine-out glide into Craig Field (Selma,
> Alabama). NO! It was not fault of the engine or even the subsystems.
> But, the complete answer is not provided until after my litany of the
> conditions and symptoms - can you figure it out?
>
> I took off on Thursday (28 May 2009) AM from North Carolina planning
> on stopping in Mississippi to join up with two friends. After
> spending the night there, we all three would then head for Texas.
> But, the weather (as you are aware) has been laying over the southeast
> for days with rain and more rain - but I launched into it anyway as
> past Atlanta, GA things were forecast to improve..
>
> Other than dodging lines of clouds and a bit of scud running, but not
> much, I landed at Alexandria City to the southwest of Atlanta, GA to
> take on fuel. I then climbed back in and fire it up and took off.
>
> I noticed that during climb-out the engine would occasionally miss and
> thought the fuel might have had a bit of water in it, but was not
> really concerned. So I fly on for approx another 45 minutes and had
> just passed Selma, Alabama and old Craig Air Force base, and turned
> west toward Mississippi, when more symptoms began to occur.
>
> It started to act like a case of SAG (fouled spark plugs) where the
> rpm will drop a bit - not dangerous - just nerve racking. But,
> shortly things began to go beyond the SAG symptoms, so I though I
> might have an injector problem (like one sticking open or not opening
> at all). Since our injectors are in pairs, I tried turning one pair
> off figuring if things got better, then that pair might have a bad
> injector.
>
> So I turned off one pair and sure enough the symptoms abated a bit
> (more on this later) so I figured I had a bad injector in that pair.
> To be certain I turned this "bad" pair back on and turn off the "good"
> pair expecting the symptoms to really get bad as I would now be
> running on only the "bad" pair - much to my surprise when I turned off
> the "good" pair - the symptoms also abated. So that indicated it was
> not an injector problem - but what?
>
> About this time, I decided to turn the aircraft back around toward
> Craig Field and dodging clouds headed back with the engine
> progressively getting worst. It appeared to be a fuel problem (and
> while that is ultimately the subsystem affected - it was not the root
> cause). The fuel pressure was ranging from zero to 80 psi, other
> electrical things were also misbehaving. I check the voltmeter
> thinking perhaps the alternator had died - but it showed
> 14 volts. So back to the fuel system.
>
> Finally, the engine just stops with the prop standing still - like a
> hood ornament, I'm at around 4500-5000 MSL at this point having lost
> some altitude dodging a cloud (good old GPS just kept pointing to
> Craig Field). At that time I am 6-7 miles out from Craig Field at
> 4500 msl with a stopped prop, a crippled seat cushion and a dry mouth.
> Yes, I've been there before, but I don't think you ever get "use" to
> it. I recalled thinking -". things just can't get
> worst." when they very shortly and suddenly - did.
>
> I keyed the radio and made a call to Craig Field at 4 miles on the GPS
> but before I could get their reply, I heard a "CLANK" (without the
> engine running you can hear things like that) like a relay
> springing open (it was) and the entire panel goes dead!!!! No
> radio, no engine instruments, not even a stinking LED was lit - only
> the battery powered GPS. Can you spell "total electrical failure?"
> Talk about a lonely feeling - amazing how comforting having lights on
> and radio - you could almost convince yourself this was just a
> practice engine-out landing, but not when the panel goes dark. No
> engine gauges, no radio, nada!
>
> Well not being one inclined to panic (but I seriously considered it
> for a moment {:>)), I continued toward Craig field - I mean like there
> were lots of other alternatives. Well Once again I found myself in
> the "fortunate position" of being too high, too much altitude. So I
> put in 40 degs of flaps to steepen my rate of descent. But, then I
> decided this time that rather than do the 360 I had done on a previous
> Incident to lose "excessive" altitude, I would try to glide - a more
> or less - regular traffic pattern.
>
> However, I neglected to remember to retract the flaps. So I found
> myself on the downwind around mid-field at pattern altitude (which
> felt normal) until I suddenly realized that you CAN NOT maintain that
> pattern altitude without an engine!!! (and particularly with 40 deg
> of flaps deployed - flaps and trim are manual) Duh!
>
> I knew I could never make it to the far end of the runway before
> turning base (toward the runway) and I was losing altitude at the
> rate of 400-500 fpm, so I started my turn immediately. To make
> matters a bit worst - I had been paralleling the runway on the
> downwind leg a bit too close in - must have been the comforting
> feeling of being close to safety. This position naturally required a
> tighter turn and as I turned I saw I was likely to overshoot the
> runway and land in the grass. So I though I need to steepen this turn
> further (Yep! COFFIN CORNER was calling), but fortunately glanced at
> my airspeed indicator - to see it only registering 80 MPH and my rate
> of descent (normally 400-500 feet per minute) up to over 1000 feet per
> minute. The seat cushion suddenly vanished from this universe.
>
> But the REAL danger in this situation, as you all know, is your
> airspeed gets low, you are in a steep bank which greatly raises the
> stall speed - meaning at 80 mph you are close to a stall in a steep
> turn while your are not in straight and level. So I immediately
> straighten out of the turn - the little voice saying "better to land
> in the grass than get their concrete runway all messed up". So the
> immediate danger of a stall was adverted, but I was still pointed
> toward the ground with a sink rate twice as high as normal (and I've
> manage a few hard landings even with a normal sink rate).
> Fortunately, the runway was now under my nose rather than grass.
>
> The hardest thing to do when you are sinking at a 1000 fpm a couple
> hundred feet above the ground (with your nose already pointed at the
> ground) is to push the stick forward steeping the dive even more.
> But, I manage to do that and picked enough air speed and energy to
> flair to a nice touch down - not even a bump. I've always been amazed
> at what total concentration does to improve you landing {:>).
>
> Rolled to the end of the runway and had energy to roll off onto the
> taxiway. Got out, check under the aircraft for any evidence of
> leaks and started pulling the aircraft toward the far -off - hangar
> which had an airplane parked in front of it. A nice looking young
> woman comes riding a bicycle out to meet me. Hopped off and holding
> out her hand said "Hi I'm Angie, looks like we'll be spending time
> together" - so things were starting to look up {:>)
>
> So pulled the aircraft in to the hangar where the mechanic came over
> and ask what the problem was. Well, I looked at the volt meter and it
> said the battery was dead. Mechanic put on a battery charger and
> announced "Yep! The battery is dead". So we both concluded that the
> alternator must have failed and not being able to replenish the drain
> on the battery by all the electrical systems such as fuel pumps,
> injectors, ignition coils, etc had drained the battery.
>
> However, there were a few problems with the analysis of a failed
> alternator. First, the low voltage warning light never came on to
> warn of an alternator problem, 2nd I never notice the voltmeter
> showing anything other than what it should for alternator voltage -
> like around 14 volts. While checking the voltage after the Mechanic
> had charged the battery, I noticed down below that the "essential bus"
> switch was in the battery rather than the alternator position, so
> flicked it back to the alternator position figuring I must have
> accidentally kicked it while getting to some stuff in the baggage
> compartment of my RV-6A.
>
> It was getting late and being a bit tired not to mention stressed, I
> needed to get a rental car and a motel for the night. Did that, eat
> dinner and went to bed after sitting down and drawing out a problem
> tree with the entire major elements of the electrical system.
>
> So next morning I show up at the hangar early and met Ben, the
> mechanic, the battery had received a charge of only 45 minutes the
> evening before, So I suggested we charged it for another hour and try
> to start the aircraft. Ben suggested a real stress test of the
> battery and NOT charge it anymore. Made sense, so we rolled the
> aircraft out of the hangar. I hopped in, threw a half dozen switches
> and punched the starter button. The engine started on the first prop
> blade rotation - so the battery was clearly OK. The
> engine is humming like a top. So I looked over at the voltmeter
> expecting it to show only around 12.8 volts instead of the 14 volts a
> functioning alternator would produce. Much to both my and Ben's
> surprise the alternator voltage read 14 volts. We loaded the
> alternator by turning on the both l00 watt landing lights, all fuel
> pumps, the pitot heat, etc. The alternator voltage only drops perhaps
> 0.4 volts clearly indicating the alternator could carry the load and
> was OK.
>
> So here I am - battery is OK, alternator is OK - engine is purring
> normally, so clearly this was all a figment of my deteriorating brain
> cells. I loaded up the aircraft and launched to do a few circuits of
> the airport - I did so and all was operating normally and so I radio
> them I was head onward to Texas. While flying (with my only
> functional eyeball on the voltmeter), my mind could not let go of the
> problem and finally the light bulb came on.
>
> The essential bus switch had (for my entire 10 + years of
> flying)always been in the alternator position. The purpose of this
> switch is, of course, to isolate the battery from the alternator
> should the alternator fail - to prevent an alternator problem from
> draining the battery. So in event of an alternator problem, you move
> the switch from alternator to battery. Its call the essential bus
> because you only have the essential things drawing from the battery so
> you wont' drain it as quickly. The idea is to give you time
> (generally around 30 minutes) to find a safe place to land in case of
> alternator failure.
>
>
> Well, at some point I had either (not paying attention) turned the
> switch to battery thinking I was turning the voltmeter switch to
> battery(more on that below) - or accidentally had move the switch
> from alternator to battery without noticing it by kicking it, etc.
> However, it was sort of protected in its position from accidental
> activation. It must have happened during refueling - as I got approx
> 45 minutes down the road on the battery after take off before quality
> battery time started to deteriorate. As the battery voltage fell due
> to the load (and no alternator link to replenish it), electrical
> things (mainly computers first) started acting up until they could not
> longer run the engine. The injectors would not open fully, etc. Then
> as the voltage level further decreased, the master relay which the
> battery held closed and which connected the (fully
> functional) alternator to the rest of the electrical system - opened
> up and removed ALL power from the electrical system. So no radio, no
> gauges, etc.
>
> Oh, another little factor that may have contributed, the voltmeter
> has a tiny toggle switch by it marked ALT BAT1 BAT2 for checking
> alternator battery 1 and battery 2 (which I no longer fly with)
> voltages. Down below It a couple of inches and off to the right is
> the essential bus normal size toggle switch - also marked ALT BAT1
> BAT1. I normally never touch it and don't even think about it. But I
> could have reached for the voltmeter toggle thinking to check my
> battery voltage (which I do as a regular thing) and perhaps distracted
> by something reached a bit further down and instead moved the
> essential bus switch from Alternator to Battery causing this entire
> event. I know that I did not consciously do it. So it is either
> accidental or absence minded activation - either way ends with the
> same results {:>)
>
>
> Now it became clear why it didn't matter which pair of fuel injectors
> I turned off - turning off either pair improved the situation because
> it slightly reduced the electrical load by a few amps - and the engine
> ran slightly better for a few moments. The same thing had happened
> when turning off one of the EFI fuel pumps - but what threw me was the
> alternator voltage continued to be normal during this.
>
> After I knew the cause (switch in wrong position), I decided the
> problem was fixed so no reason to return to NC, and I just continued
> on to Texas.
>
> I know some of you may think that removing my second battery was a
> mistake - but, consider this, having another battery could have meant
> I would have been much further from a suitable airfield before they
> both went south. On the other hand, it might have caused me to at
> least think to throw the essential bus switch to the second battery
> and have the Light bulb come on. Who really knows. But, I have in
> mind a simply addition to my electrical circuit that should help in
> the future.
>
>
> I do want to state that this time when the problems started I DID
> switch fuel tanks - but naturally it had no effect because this time
> it turned out, it was not a fuel problem - not the root cause at
> least.
>
> So what are the lessons learned:
>
> . Put EVERY critical switch on your before-takeoff Check list
> . Perhaps put a guard around such critical switches to force
> conscious activation
> . Don't (hard not to) get overly focused on what you think is the
> problem - consider other possibilities. I thought it was a fuel
> problem (I even switched fuel tanks this time) - it turned out to be
> electrical in its root cause.
> . While the fuel pressure was jumping all over the place and the EGT
> was erratic and engine surging strongly indicating a fuel problem -
> the ultimate cause was electrical. Once the voltage got below a
> certain point the EC2 computer was still trying to pull the injectors
> open, but with the voltage so low it could not do it properly.
> . When the battery voltage dropped below a certain point, the master
> relay released and removed the alternator from the electrical system
> and the panel went dark - even though the alternator was still working
> . Immediately turn to the nearest airfield when serious problems
> occur - THEN work on fixing them. I only delayed for perhaps 2-3
> minutes, but that could have made a difference.
> . Watch out for Coffin Corner turn when turning base to final -
> airspeed really bleeds off fast with no engine pulling you along (and
> especially with flaps deployed!)
> . IF you change your mind about landing approach type - remember to
> reconfigure your aircraft for the last decision - I had left my flaps
> deployed when I should have remembered to retracted them. Did that
> help prevent a Coffin Corner stall and spin or would it have put me
> closer to it?
> . You must increase airspeed over the wing to get the sufficient
> energy to over come a high sink rate. Pulling back on the stick when
> the ground is staring you in the face is the natural reaction - but,
> pushing forward to lower the nose is the correct action - providing of
> course you have sufficient altitude!
> . Battery life - I had a two year old 680 odyssey battery which I
> maintain a trickle charge on whenever I'm not flying. With two EFI
> fuel pumps, boost pump, injectors, coils, EC2 and radio and just
> having started the engine before take off - this battery lasted 55
> minutes. Well, the last 5 minutes were not quality battery time.
> So in my case, 30 minutes appears to be a very realistic battery life.
> In fact, had I turned off one EFI pump and the boost pump would have
> gained a few more miles. But, if I had recognized the need to turn
> them off at that time (I normally turn them off at cruise altitude),
> then I would have known how to "fix" the problem.
> . I've decided to add a Schokkty diode between my essential bus and
> the alternator - so that as long as the alternator is producing
> sufficient voltage, then the battery will be getting some charge to
> replace the drain. I've also decided to make that switch position a
> check-list item.
>
> So what it boils down to - if I had recognized early on that it was
> an electrical problem and not focused so much on the fuel system, I
> may have noticed the essential bus switch in the wrong position.
> Force yourself to examine other possible causes (easy to say - harder
> to do).
>
> NEVER, NEVER forget that flying the airplane is the first and only
> priority in this type of situation
>
> NEVER, NEVER forget that saving your butt is the ultimately end-all
> priority. When I decided that landing on the grass was preferable to
> putting a hole in their concrete - I may have made a life-saving
> decision.
>
> So that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
>
> Fly safe, guys!!
>
> Ed
> Ed Anderson
>
>
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| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Essential Incident - Almost (Long) |
Hi Etienne,
No one can point finger at me better than myself. As I indicated the
modifications to Bob's excellent design and resulting incident rest
strictly with me - no getting around that (even if I tried).
As best I can recall from over 10 years ago, I decided I did not want the
voltage drop caused by a isolation diode (as you might imagine I am
reconsidering that decision). So when I move my essential bus switch from
Alternator to Battery, the battery is completely disconnected from
alternator circuit. At the same time the battery voltage is what is holding
my master relay closed so that the alternator feeds the electrical system.
Normally (at least for the past 10 years and 450 + hours) has worked as I
had envisioned. But, never having an alternator failure, I never had reason
to move the switch from the Alternator position.
In this case, the switch was moved to battery which isolated the battery
from the alternator completely - This was of course unintentional, but all
the same resulted in exhaustion of the battery while I still had a perfectly
good alternator functioning. Needless to say, that requires me to
reconsider my design.
The simplest fix appears to be to put the isolation diode between
alternator and battery essential bus.
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
<http://www.andersonee.com> http://www.andersonee.com
<http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html>
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
http://www.flyrotary.com/
<http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm>
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
<http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html>
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Etienne
Phillips
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 1:55 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Essential Incident - Almost (Long)
Hi Ed
Aren't you glad you weren't flying at night! :-)
A diagram of your electrical system as it was would help us understand what
you did, and why its design caused the failure... Of particular interest is
why switching on the e-bus disconnected the alternator. I also can't seem to
make out why when the main bus still had power from the alternator, the
contactor died when the e-bus voltage dropped. It may prompt Bob to suggest
a better solution to what you're planning :-D
Not pointing fingers here, I just can't visualise how it's all hooked up!
Thanks
Etienne
On 03 Jun 2009, at 9:53 PM, Ed Anderson wrote:
It was suggested by one of the aeroelectric list members, Sam Hoskins, that
the following report of an incident I had on a recent trip be posted to the
AeroElectric list for obvious reasons - once you read it.
I have an all-electric Rv-6A with over 10 years and close to 500 hours on
it. I based the electrical system roughly one of Bob's excellent designs.
It initially had one alternator and two batteries, but removed the second
battery approx 5 years ago - but, I did make one modification to the design
that I almost had cause to regret.
So needless to say, but I will, responsibility for design and incident is
totally mine.
But, to get on with the tale
One the way to Texas I had an incident that ended up in with me and aircraft
making a 7 mile engine-out glide into Craig Field (Selma, Alabama). NO! It
was not fault of the engine or even the subsystems. But, the complete
answer is not provided until after my litany of the conditions and symptoms
- can you figure it out?
Fly safe, guys!!
Ed
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Hand" <chris_hand(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Stereo to Mono |
Actually, I use a Sony Walkman in my RV-6A that has something on the
order of 400+ songs right now with plenty of storage room to spare for
more songs, videos, photos, etc. Weighs a few ounces, plugs into my
intercom, didn't cost much, and works great. It's a Sony Walkman
digital media player - smaller physical size than the i-pods my kids
prefer and does all I want for the RV. Although once upon a time I did
have one of the Walkman units you are talking about, Sony has rehashed
the name with current technology.....not sure which era Don's Walkman is
from.
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com ; don(at)contractorsnorthwest.com
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 3:00 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Stereo to Mono
I would not use a stereo to mono jack to go FROM stereo to MONO.
It really is made
for going from mono to drive a stereo headphone, split to drive
both L & R channels.
It is not designed to combine stereo to mono.
Whats the big deal? Shorting L & R of an amp can cause damage,
even an iPod. If the
"Walkman" has a mono switch than its OK, but iPods do not have
mono switches.
If you don't have a MP3 player (iPod) get one. Walkman are last
decades news. If you
don't have an iPod you can get 100's of hours of music on them
with play time of 6 hours
per charge. They are also small and light weight.
There are some threads on how to properly combine stereo and
ground issues in this
forum. Just use the search engine. The easy way is with
capacitor and resistor, which
you can wire behind the panel. You would use a stereo 1/8" phone
jack and then
go from stereo to mono with the isolation Cap and Resistor.
Cheers George
>From: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Stereo to Mono
>
>5/30/2009
>Hello Don, You wrote: "I want to install a plug in my panel to
plug my
>stereo Walkman into but my intercom (PM1000 II) is mono."
>Here is one way to solve that problem --
>http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102669
>This adapter will put the output of a mono jack on your panel
into both
>sides of your stereo Walkman.
>Also take a look at some of the other adapters available. You
may want to
>put a normal airplane earphone sized jack on your instrument
panel so that
>either your Walkman (with an adapter) or an airplane earphone
set (without
>adapter) may be plugged in.
>
>========================
===
>>
>>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Stereo to Mono
>>From: "Don McIntosh" <don(at)contractorsnorthwest.com>
>>
>>I want to install a plug in my panel to plug my stereo Walkman
into but my
>>intercom (PM1000 II) is mono. Can I just splice the Right and
Left leads together
>>to go into the intercom? Also the intercom pins are labeled
"HI" and "LOW".
>>Is this just the pin identification numbers?
>>--------
>>Don McIntosh
>>Kitfox Series 7 under construction
>>Jabiru 3300
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kitfox IV - Jabiru 2200 - Icom IC-A210 Reciving |
noise
| From: | "EdgePerformance" <post(at)edgeperformance.no> |
Hi,
Will that cause receiving noise only, and only with the engine off ?
ianxbrown wrote:
> Are the plastic washers the type with a raised bit that goes through the
> hole? They generally come with the jack connectors. Otherwise the
> ground side of the plug can ground through the side of the hole.
>
> Ian Brown
> Bromont
> Quebec
>
>
> >
> >
> > I will give it a try tomorrow. But I cant figure what I have done wrong. Radio
is connected right to the battery, all wires out of the molex connector are
shielded, jacks to headsets are isolated with plastic washers through the front
panel, have a grounded 50x45cm ground plate inside the body with the antenna
screwed right in the center of the plate with the coaxial cable shield grounded
straight to the ground plate.
> >
> > Heres a really simple sketch of how I have wired my antenna.
> >
> > --------
> > Kitfox IV w Jabiru 2200 TurboAerocarb
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 46820#246820
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Attachments:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com//files/antenna_ground_plate_163.jpg
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--------
Kitfox IV w\ Jabiru 2200 Turbo\Aerocarb
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246925#246925
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Essential Incident - Almost (Long) |
A related discussion FWIW:
I still think that the electrically dependent engine and especially with
internal regulated alternators, may be better served by connecting the
alternator to the battery side of a battery contactor. Even more so if
you have a separate OV contactor or if you run small batteries. I've
done that on both alternators of my Z-14 system. Separate guarded
switches control the OV contactors.
In a smoke situation I want to kill everything not required by the
engine but if the smoke stops I still want the option of keeping the
alternator. I don't want to risk load dumping my internally regulated
alternator if I don't have to. I run very small 8AH batteries but
interestingly one of them lost almost all of its capacity very quickly
last winter. The second one still cranked the engine fairly well so it
was not obvious. It did not seem to go open circuit as it would still
supply a 5 amp load for 2 or 3 minutes. De-sulphating pulses made no
improvement.
My voltmeters and OV sensing are off the battery busses since they run
the engine.
Ken
Ed Anderson wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> Perhaps a bit clear explanation of my circuit. When I move my essential bus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Stereo to Mono |
>>Sony Walkman in my RV-6A that has something on the order of 400+
songs right now with plenty of storage room to spare for more songs,
videos, photos, etc.<<
You mean those tapes I use in my Walkman have been replaced by something
better?
Actually I am very happy with the HP pocket computer that came with my
newest upgrade to Anywhere Map. It fits in my pocket when not in it's
vehicle mount, it has wireless internet (I did replace the Microsoft
browser with "Opera", however), MP3 player, Bluetooth, built in GPS
antenna, Tom-Tom for ground navigation, and, of course, AnywhereMap. Not
to mention the games that I loaded into it that I can play while waiting
in the doctor's waiting rooms!
It does have an output socket for earphones and I have an adapter for
the 1/8" socket to a 1/4" plug to just plug in to the appropriate socket
in my intercom. But haven't gotten around to connecting it to my
intercom yet, since I don't even have an electrical system in my plane
yet! Hopefully before this year is out....
Harley
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Hand wrote:
> decades news. If you
> play time of 6 hours
>
>
>
> Actually, I use a Sony Walkman in my RV-6A that has something on the
> order of 400+ songs right now with plenty of storage room to spare for
> more songs, videos, photos, etc. Weighs a few ounces, plugs into my
> intercom, didn't cost much, and works great. It's a Sony Walkman
> digital media player - smaller physical size than the i-pods my kids
> prefer and does all I want for the RV. Although once upon a time I
> did have one of the Walkman units you are talking about, Sony has
> rehashed the name with current technology.....not sure which era Don's
> Walkman is from.
>
> Chris
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> ;
> don(at)contractorsnorthwest.com
> *Sent:* Monday, June 01, 2009 3:00 AM
> *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Re: Stereo to Mono
>
> I would not use a stereo to mono jack to go FROM stereo to MONO.
> It really is made
> for going from mono to drive a stereo headphone, split to drive
> both L & R channels.
> It is not designed to combine stereo to mono.
>
> Whats the big deal? Shorting L & R of an amp can cause damage,
> even an iPod. If the
> "Walkman" has a mono switch than its OK, but iPods do not have
> mono switches.
>
> If you don't have a MP3 player (iPod) get one. Walkman are last
> decades news. If you
> don't have an iPod you can get 100's of hours of music on them
> with play time of 6 hours
> per charge. They are also small and light weight.
>
> There are some threads on how to properly combine stereo and
> ground issues in this
> forum. Just use the search engine. The easy way is with capacitor
> and resistor, which
> you can wire behind the panel. You would use a stereo 1/8" phone
> jack and then
> go from stereo to mono with the isolation Cap and Resistor.
>
> Cheers George
>
>
> >From: <bakerocb(at)cox.net <mailto:bakerocb(at)cox.net>>
> >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Stereo to Mono
> >
> >5/30/2009
> >Hello Don, You wrote: "I want to install a plug in my panel to
> plug my
> >stereo Walkman into but my intercom (PM1000 II) is mono."
> >Here is one way to solve that problem --
>
> >http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102669
>
> >This adapter will put the output of a mono jack on your panel
> into both
> >sides of your stereo Walkman.
>
> >Also take a look at some of the other adapters available. You may
> want to
> >put a normal airplane earphone sized jack on your instrument
> panel so that
> >either your Walkman (with an adapter) or an airplane earphone set
> (without
> >adapter) may be plugged in.
> >
> >===========================
> >>
> >>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Stereo to Mono
> >>From: "Don McIntosh" <don(at)contractorsnorthwest.com
> >
> >>
> >>I want to install a plug in my panel to plug my stereo Walkman
> into but my
> >>intercom (PM1000 II) is mono. Can I just splice the Right and
> Left leads together
> >>to go into the intercom? Also the intercom pins are labeled "HI"
> and "LOW".
> >>Is this just the pin identification numbers?
> >>--------
> >>Don McIntosh
> >>Kitfox Series 7 under construction
> >>Jabiru 3300
>
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joe" <fran5sew(at)banyanol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Essential Incident - Almost (Long)Essential Incident |
- Almost (Long)
Ed,
It is hard to improve on Bob Nuckolls wiring diagrams. His
schematics have evolved and have been proven over time and have been
scrutinized by many eyes. His essential bus is fed via two paths: a
diode and a switch. If one path fails, there is a backup. Your
intention of putting the diode back in is a good idea. The voltage drop
across a diode is not a concern because the alternator is putting out
more than enough voltage. If the alternator fails and you turn on the
E-Bus alternate feed switch, the diode is no longer part of the circuit.
So in either case, alternator working or not, the voltage drop across
the diode is not a concern.
Putting another switch (E-Bus alt feed) between the battery and
alternator introduces another failure point. That extra switch is not
needed because there is already a master switch to shut off the battery
and alternator circuits. Not only does the master switch shut off
non-essential electrical loads, it also shuts off the main battery
contactor, another non-essential load.
I assume that your E-Bus alternate feed switch is a double pole
switch because it controls two things: the E-Bus and battery-to-main-bus
circuit. If that switch fails, both electrical paths to the E-Bus could
be lost.
If you post your electrical schematic on AeroElectric, others can
offer suggestions for improvement.
Joe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Essential Incident |
At 08:22 PM 6/4/2009, you wrote:
>
>
>Hi Bill,
>
>Perhaps a bit clear explanation of my circuit. When I move my essential bus
>switch from ALT (alternator) to BAT1 (battery1), it removes the link between
>battery and alternator. However, the master relay still closed by the
>battery voltage, so this provides a path for the alternator to continue to
>feed the rest of the (none essential systems - such as landing lights,
>strobe light, transponder, etc).
Ed, could you send me a copy of your
architecture? It seems that it might
benefit from a failure mode effects
analysis.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Essential Incident - Almost (Long)Essential Incident |
- Almost (Long)
I have to agree, Joe. What 10 years ago seemed like a reasonable idea and
design- proved 10 years later to be in need of some changes - without doubt.
While this incident was undoubtedly pilot induced - it pointed out some
limitations that I had not factored in. Fortunately, I get the chance to
make some changes.
Yes, in hindsight, I agree - the voltage drop across the diode is a minor
factor in the scheme of things. However, the Alternator/ battery switch
will stay in the circuit - because even diodes can fail. If the switch
fails then hopefully the diode will keep the battery replenished. Should
the diode fail then the switch provides a circuit for keeping battery alive.
I will also revise the circuit so the Master relay is not solely dependent
on battery voltage.
Back 10 years ago, it seemed to me that alternator failure was the highest
probability. After 10+ years of flying without either alternator or battery
failure - I am content with the basic design (after aforementioned changes
are made that is {:>))
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
<http://www.andersonee.com> http://www.andersonee.com
<http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html>
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
http://www.flyrotary.com/
<http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm>
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
<http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html>
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe
Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Essential Incident - Almost (Long)Essential
Incident - Almost (Long)
Ed,
It is hard to improve on Bob Nuckolls wiring diagrams. His schematics
have evolved and have been proven over time and have been scrutinized by
many eyes. His essential bus is fed via two paths: a diode and a switch.
If one path fails, there is a backup. Your intention of putting the diode
back in is a good idea. The voltage drop across a diode is not a concern
because the alternator is putting out more than enough voltage. If the
alternator fails and you turn on the E-Bus alternate feed switch, the diode
is no longer part of the circuit. So in either case, alternator working or
not, the voltage drop across the diode is not a concern.
Putting another switch (E-Bus alt feed) between the battery and
alternator introduces another failure point. That extra switch is not
needed because there is already a master switch to shut off the battery and
alternator circuits. Not only does the master switch shut off non-essential
electrical loads, it also shuts off the main battery contactor, another
non-essential load.
I assume that your E-Bus alternate feed switch is a double pole switch
because it controls two things: the E-Bus and battery-to-main-bus circuit.
If that switch fails, both electrical paths to the E-Bus could be lost.
If you post your electrical schematic on AeroElectric, others can offer
suggestions for improvement.
Joe
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 3267 (20080714) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | E-bus design goals |
At 08:30 PM 6/4/2009, you wrote:
>Hi Etienne,
>
>As best I can recall from over 10 years ago, I decided I did not
>want the voltage drop caused by a isolation diode . . .
>
Yeah, that bit of physics seems to bug some folks . . .
but more than necessary or useful. Keep in mind that
when the worst happens (alternator quits) the
battery delivers energy at 12.5 down to about 11.0
volts. All our electro-whizzies are designed to
either produce useful performance over this voltage range
else they are NOT suitable for installation in airplanes.
When the e-bus is being powered from the main bus
via the back-feed isolation diode, the main bus
runs at 14.2 to 14.6 volts. A 0.7 to 0.8 volt
drop in the diode depresses the e-bus to
a minimum of 13.4 volts - a value that is about
1.0 volt HIGHER than delivered by a battery alone.
The voltage drop may be reduced by utilization of
a Schottky rectifier . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schottky_diode
. . . if the builder is willing to
give up the cost and convenience of installation
for the silicon diode bridge rectifier described
in my writings:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/s401-25.jpg
Several products crafted for the OBAM aircraft
market speak to a design goal for lower voltage
drop . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9001/IM9001-700A.pdf
http://www.periheliondesign.com/powerschottkydiodes.htm
The latter product offers the lower voltage drop
characteristic of the Schottky junction diode
however, the application schematic shown
in the link above is not the correct implementation
of the e-bus philosophy described in the 'Connection.
See:
http://aeroelectric.com/R12A/AppZ_12A3.pdf
All this makes a mountain out of a mole hill.
When used as illustrated in the Z-figures, the
voltage drop offered by either silicon junction or
Schottky devices has no operational significance
for achieving the original design goals that gave
rise to the e-bus about 15 years ago.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
| Subject: | Fwd: Jabiru 3300 starter |
Basically starter contactors are used in addition to the solenoid on the st
arter purely to avoid having a permanently hot big fat wire from the batter
y to the engine..In the extrordinarilly low risk event that the wire should
break and start flailing around under the cowling the consequences are lik
ely to be catastrophic..read fire or at least a boiled battery.
Low likelyhood/high catastrophy events are hard to quantify in terms of how
much protection to add. In the "real" airplane world they went with the ad
ditional contactor..Automotive they didn't.
Personally I'm comfortable either way...My current RV has a starter contact
or mainly cus it was in box..:)
Frank
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr
ic-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jaybannist(at)cs.com
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fwd: Jabiru 3300 starter
Ken,
Thanks for the reply. Because I have a Corvair engine, in the past, I have
not looked at posts dealing specifically with Jabiru systems. I think my
confusion comes from the fact that the starter solenoid on my engine is tie
d to the started and there is no starter contactor. I think from looking a
t the latest Jabiru wiring diagram, one or the other is required, but not b
oth. I'm just not sure what is included in the Jabiru FWF package.
Thanks again - Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
hman(at)albedo.net>>
Yes but it has been discussed before and we all hoped someone else would an
swer... ;)
A conventional battery contactor draws almost 1 amp and can be on continuou
sly. A starter contactor is quicker acting, draws more like 4 amps, and is
intermittant duty. ie it will overheat and fail if energized continuously.
Your call on whether you need a starter contactor as well as a starter sole
noid. Is there any chance that both are required for your warranty? I did n
ot use a starter contactor on my subaru but I can kill a stuck on starter b
y killing a "battery" contactor on my bird. Solenoids on starters do occasi
onally but rarely stick on but the same is true for starter contactors. I j
udge the risk quite low for an automotive type starter solenoid and a glanc
e at the voltage after start up confirms disengagement.
Ken
________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ben Westfall" <rv10(at)sinkrate.com> |
| Subject: | E-bus design goals |
Is it possible to have both the E-Bus switch and the Master ON at the same
time? Wouldn't this power the ebus stuff at full voltage?
-Ben Westfall
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kitfox IV - Jabiru 2200 - Icom IC-A210 |
Reciving n
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
Hello EdgePerformance,
I'm just suggesting some basic trouble shooting methods. One of those
methods is to disable possible antagonists - things that might be creating
noise - while still being able to operate the victim. This can help to
identify which system is the source of the noise. In turn:
- Disable the ignition
- Disable the alternator
To verify that I understand clearly, you simultaneously turned off both
ignitions - causing the engine to stop running, but the prop windmilled
the engine for a short time? And the noise was still present, though the
frequency was winding down? I would expect that if the ignition were the
source of the problem, turning the ignition off would instantly stop the
generation of the noise, even as the engine continued to windmill.
Assuming this suggests to me that the source of the noise is in the
charging system.
Can you turn off the alternator while the engine runs?
Another way of attacking the problem is to identify how the noise is
getting into the victim.
- Running the radio from a battery can help identify if noise is getting
in through power/ground
- Disconnecting the antenna (from the back of the radio) can identify if
the noise is coming through the VHF/RF section of the radio
More questions:
- Do you have a separate audio panel or intercom? Can you disable it?
- Does the noise present itself while on the ground (with the engine
running)? This would make the debug process easier..
- Is it possible the noise is audio in nature, only (not electrical)?
Maybe a mic issue? Disconnect the mic plug from the audio system?
On some Permanent Magnet alternator systems, it is recommended that a
bypass capacitor be installed at the output of the regulator. A cap with
a value of 10kuF with at least a 40V rating would be adequate.
I apologize if it seems I'm repeating myself.. I just want to make sure
my non-existent Norwegian isn't causing a communication problem. :)
Regards,
Matt-
>
>
> Hi,
>
> i have the aerocarb so normally i use idle-cutoff but both magnetic
coils
> are new and they work fine. Ignition cutoff work great on both cold and
hot engine no matter what throttle setting.
>
> What do you mean by antenna mitigate ? My English aren't that great.
(Poor
> Norwegian).
>
> I tried to turn off both ignition switches in flight and the engine
didn't
> get to stop completely before the transmission was over, but I could
clearly hear the noise frequency becoming lower. But that could also be
both alternator and ignition I believe.
>
> I really hope I can figure this out soon so that I can go out and fly my
new build jabiru 2200 turbo kitfox IV.
>
> --------
> Kitfox IV w\ Jabiru 2200 Turbo\Aerocarb
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=246830#246830
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: E-bus design goals |
| From: | Mike Fontenot <mikef(at)apexconsultingservices.com> |
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PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09IF8t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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kitfox IV - Jabiru 2200 - Icom IC-A210 Reciving |
n
| From: | "EdgePerformance" <post(at)edgeperformance.no> |
Hi Matt,
Thanks alot for all suggestions. Yes I believe it may be alternator noise as the
prop did windmill for a few second while I was receiving a transmission. I have
fully charged my battery now, and will try to take a landing circuit with
the alternator wires disconnected.
I use the integrated intercom in my Icom IC-A210 transceiver witch works exceptionally
great. The intercom and transmissions are crystall clear.
The noise does exist on ground, but it seems to affect the radio noise even more
as in flight.
I will try out all suggestions tomorrow and come back with a test resault. I have
also got hold on a new RA-Miller com antenna I will try as well as a completly
isolated battery.
Thanks again,
Thomas
intercom(at)spro.net wrote:
> Hello EdgePerformance,
>
> I'm just suggesting some basic trouble shooting methods. One of those
> methods is to disable possible antagonists - things that might be creating
> noise - while still being able to operate the victim. This can help to
> identify which system is the source of the noise. In turn:
>
> - Disable the ignition
> - Disable the alternator
>
> To verify that I understand clearly, you simultaneously turned off both
> ignitions - causing the engine to stop running, but the prop windmilled
> the engine for a short time? And the noise was still present, though the
> frequency was winding down? I would expect that if the ignition were the
> source of the problem, turning the ignition off would instantly stop the
> generation of the noise, even as the engine continued to windmill.
> Assuming this suggests to me that the source of the noise is in the
> charging system.
>
> Can you turn off the alternator while the engine runs?
>
> Another way of attacking the problem is to identify how the noise is
> getting into the victim.
>
> - Running the radio from a battery can help identify if noise is getting
> in through power/ground
> - Disconnecting the antenna (from the back of the radio) can identify if
> the noise is coming through the VHF/RF section of the radio
>
> More questions:
>
> - Do you have a separate audio panel or intercom? Can you disable it?
>
> - Does the noise present itself while on the ground (with the engine
> running)? This would make the debug process easier..
>
> - Is it possible the noise is audio in nature, only (not electrical)?
> Maybe a mic issue? Disconnect the mic plug from the audio system?
>
> On some Permanent Magnet alternator systems, it is recommended that a
> bypass capacitor be installed at the output of the regulator. A cap with
> a value of 10kuF with at least a 40V rating would be adequate.
>
> I apologize if it seems I'm repeating myself.. I just want to make sure
> my non-existent Norwegian isn't causing a communication problem. :)
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Matt-
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > i have the aerocarb so normally i use idle-cutoff but both magnetic
> > coils
> >
>
>
> > are new and they work fine. Ignition cutoff work great on both cold and
> > hot engine no matter what throttle setting.
> >
>
>
> >
> > What do you mean by antenna mitigate ? My English aren't that great.
> > (Poor
> >
>
>
> > Norwegian).
> >
> > I tried to turn off both ignition switches in flight and the engine
> > didn't
> >
>
>
> > get to stop completely before the transmission was over, but I could
> > clearly hear the noise frequency becoming lower. But that could also be
> >
>
> both alternator and ignition I believe.
>
> >
> > I really hope I can figure this out soon so that I can go out and fly my
> > new build jabiru 2200 turbo kitfox IV.
> >
>
>
> >
> > --------
> > Kitfox IV w Jabiru 2200 TurboAerocarb
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 46830#246830
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--------
Kitfox IV w\ Jabiru 2200 Turbo\Aerocarb
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247001#247001
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Essential Incident - Almost (Long) |
| From: | "Lenny Iszak" <lenard(at)rapiddecision.com> |
Ed,
Wouldn't isolating the battery from the alternator stop the alternator from generating
power? Or do you have a permanent magnet alternator?
Or was the alternator originally switched to the auxiliary, now non-existent battery
to keep feeding your e-bus?
Lenny
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247043#247043
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Essential Incident - Almost (Long) |
Hi Lenny,
I have an auto alternator with internal regulator. The alternator ONLY
needs battery voltage to get started - once its producing voltage it uses
its own voltage to keep its field coils energized and magnetized. In fact,
I can pull the alternator field coil circuit breaker once the engine is
running and it has no effect on the alternator. Yes, you do need the
battery to jump start /bootstrap the alternator to producing voltage.
Now with the typical aircraft alternator, it's a bit different story. They
normally have an external regulator which permits you to remove voltage from
the alternator field coil and in this case, if you pull the CB and remove
voltage from the field coil it will stop producing voltage. But, once again
you only need the battery to get it started.
At least that is my understanding of the major difference between auto and
aircraft alternators.
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
http://www.flyrotary.com/
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lenny
Iszak
Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 10:45 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Essential Incident - Almost (Long)
Ed,
Wouldn't isolating the battery from the alternator stop the alternator from
generating power? Or do you have a permanent magnet alternator?
Or was the alternator originally switched to the auxiliary, now non-existent
battery to keep feeding your e-bus?
Lenny
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247043#247043
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 3267 (20080714) __________
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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: E-bus design goals |
| From: | "nuckollsr" <bob.nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
There are no risks to electro-whizzies for operating the airplane with the e-bus
alternate feed switch ON. However, you need to pre flight test the two power
paths for operation. The original operating protocols suggested closing the e-bus
alternate feed switch to power up the comm radio to get the ATIS and/or clearance
delivery. This presumes, of course that your departure field has such
services. If not, then closing this switch momentarily before doing anything
else proves availability of this power path. The e-bus alternate feed switch
would be off after closing the battery contactor and during engine start.
After engine start, the e-bus should be verified energized via the normal feed
path diode thus proving that power path. Re-closing the e-bus alternate feed switch
later for the purpose of "getting the e-bus voltage up" offers no risk to
the system or equipment. Be sure to add "E-bus alternate feed switch - OFF"
to the post-flight check list.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247068#247068
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Roger Cole <rcole927(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Stereo to Mono |
Does anyone know if the 1/8-inch phone jack audio output on a Garmin
396 is stereo or monaural? I plan to route this output into the
monaural input of the intercom. If the Garmin output is stereo, I
can do the two-resistor mixer that was mentioned previously in this
thread.
Roger Cole
1946 Cessna 140, flying
Murphy Elite #709, working on fuselage
rcole927(at)earthlink.net
On Jun 5, 2009, at 12:40 AM, Chris Hand wrote:
> decades news. If you
> with play time of 6 hours
>
>
>
> Actually, I use a Sony Walkman in my RV-6A that has something on
> the order of 400+ songs right now with plenty of storage room to
> spare for more songs, videos, photos, etc. Weighs a few ounces,
> plugs into my intercom, didn't cost much, and works great. It's a
> Sony Walkman digital media player - smaller physical size than the
> i-pods my kids prefer and does all I want for the RV. Although
> once upon a time I did have one of the Walkman units you are
> talking about, Sony has rehashed the name with current
> technology.....not sure which era Don's Walkman is from.
>
> Chris
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com ; don(at)contractorsnorthwest.com
> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 3:00 AM
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Stereo to Mono
>
> I would not use a stereo to mono jack to go FROM stereo to MONO. It
> really is made
> for going from mono to drive a stereo headphone, split to drive
> both L & R channels.
> It is not designed to combine stereo to mono.
>
> Whats the big deal? Shorting L & R of an amp can cause damage, even
> an iPod. If the
> "Walkman" has a mono switch than its OK, but iPods do not have mono
> switches.
>
> If you don't have a MP3 player (iPod) get one. Walkman are last
> decades news. If you
> don't have an iPod you can get 100's of hours of music on them with
> play time of 6 hours
> per charge. They are also small and light weight.
>
> There are some threads on how to properly combine stereo and ground
> issues in this
> forum. Just use the search engine. The easy way is with capacitor
> and resistor, which
> you can wire behind the panel. You would use a stereo 1/8" phone
> jack and then
> go from stereo to mono with the isolation Cap and Resistor.
>
> Cheers George
>
>
> >From: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
> >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Stereo to Mono
> >
> >5/30/2009
> >Hello Don, You wrote: "I want to install a plug in my panel to
> plug my
> >stereo Walkman into but my intercom (PM1000 II) is mono."
> >Here is one way to solve that problem --
>
> >http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102669
>
> >This adapter will put the output of a mono jack on your panel into
> both
> >sides of your stereo Walkman.
>
> >Also take a look at some of the other adapters available. You may
> want to
> >put a normal airplane earphone sized jack on your instrument panel
> so that
> >either your Walkman (with an adapter) or an airplane earphone set
> (without
> >adapter) may be plugged in.
> >
> >===========================
> >>
> >>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Stereo to Mono
> >>From: "Don McIntosh" <don(at)contractorsnorthwest.com>
> >>
> >>I want to install a plug in my panel to plug my stereo Walkman
> into but my
> >>intercom (PM1000 II) is mono. Can I just splice the Right and
> Left leads together
> >>to go into the intercom? Also the intercom pins are labeled "HI"
> and "LOW".
> >>Is this just the pin identification numbers?
> >>--------
> >>Don McIntosh
> >>Kitfox Series 7 under construction
> >>Jabiru 3300
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://
> www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> www.matronics.com/c
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | xponder ant mounting |
| From: | "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com> |
Since I already installed a reinforcement plate into the floor of my tailcone to
mount my ground power receptacle, is there any reason that I can't mount my
transponder antenna into the same plate an inch or two from the piper plug receptacle?
Thanks in advance. I am loathe to drill holes into my skin without checking first.
--------
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247103#247103
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Morgensen <john(at)morgensen.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Stereo to Mono |
I think I have a similar problem in a spam can. There is a 1/8 plug
coming out of the intercom that I can plug into a Garmin 496. The
results are audible but poor. XM radio is barely audible but verbal
warnings from the 496 are much clearer. Could it be that I need a 1/8
mono to stereo adapter or is additional wiring required?
Can I measure the resistance of the adapter to determine if it contains
more than a solid connection?
John Morgensen
Roger Cole wrote:
> Does anyone know if the 1/8-inch phone jack audio output on a Garmin
> 396 is stereo or monaural? I plan to route this output into the
> monaural input of the intercom. If the Garmin output is stereo, I can
> do the two-resistor mixer that was mentioned previously in this thread.
>
> Roger Cole
> 1946 Cessna 140, flying
> Murphy Elite #709, working on fuselage
> rcole927(at)earthlink.net
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Thorne" <rv7a(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Wiring is done but SL-30 comm won't transmit |
I used the bottom half of the Z-13 or I guess the Z-11 drawings.
Finally turned on the Master Switch. The good news all the smoke stayed
in the wires and the fuses didn't blow. The radio receives loud and
clear. The only problem is when I hit the PTT on the SL-30 all I get is
a loud squeal, thank goodness ground control didn't know where it was
coming from, where do I start looking, using the old look for the simple
fixes first? I have the CH stick grips with the PTT in the trigger
portion. I'm sure that I'm not the first that has experienced this
problem but couldn't find anything in the archives so would appreciate
any helpful suggestions.
Jim Thorne
RV-7A CHD
Getting close
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stuart Driver" <stuartsd(at)intergate.com> |
| Subject: | Cessna 150F Landing/Taxi light switch. |
I have a very basic question. The switch in question burnt out so I
obtained a replacement. For the life of me I can't figure out which wire
goes where. I have three wires, power and feeds to the Landing and Taxi
lights. The switch has four connectors marked H,R,A, B. The case is
marked 600 and is a pull switch with two positions.
Can anyone help? I am aware it is not RV related. When I'm not flying my
RV4 I have the Cessna to take pictures etc.
SSD
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Floyd" <fwilkes(at)gvtc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring is done but SL-30 comm won't transmit |
Jim,
I had the same thing and it turned out to be a shorted antenna cable.
Disconnect the cable at both ends and use an ohm meter to determine if
the center connector is shorted to the ground. In my case, one of the
BNC connectors was shorted.
Hope this helps.
Floyd Wilkes
601XL
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Thorne
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 5:55 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wiring is done but SL-30 comm won't
transmit
I used the bottom half of the Z-13 or I guess the Z-11 drawings.
Finally turned on the Master Switch. The good news all the smoke stayed
in the wires and the fuses didn't blow. The radio receives loud and
clear. The only problem is when I hit the PTT on the SL-30 all I get is
a loud squeal, thank goodness ground control didn't know where it was
coming from, where do I start looking, using the old look for the simple
fixes first? I have the CH stick grips with the PTT in the trigger
portion. I'm sure that I'm not the first that has experienced this
problem but couldn't find anything in the archives so would appreciate
any helpful suggestions.
Jim Thorne
RV-7A CHD
Getting close
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring is done but SL-30 comm won't transmit |
When you hit the trigger, does the SL30 TX light go on - indicating that
the mic was keyed?
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Thorne
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 6:55 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wiring is done but SL-30 comm won't
transmit
I used the bottom half of the Z-13 or I guess the Z-11 drawings.
Finally turned on the Master Switch. The good news all the smoke stayed
in the wires and the fuses didn't blow. The radio receives loud and
clear. The only problem is when I hit the PTT on the SL-30 all I get is
a loud squeal, thank goodness ground control didn't know where it was
coming from, where do I start looking, using the old look for the simple
fixes first? I have the CH stick grips with the PTT in the trigger
portion. I'm sure that I'm not the first that has experienced this
problem but couldn't find anything in the archives so would appreciate
any helpful suggestions.
Jim Thorne
RV-7A CHD
Getting close
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Stereo to Mono |
| From: | "Matt Prather" <mprather(at)spro.net> |
The Garmin 396 owner's manual makes reference to connecting stereo
headphones to the audio jack on the 396 (p114). I plug my 396 into my car
stereo's aux port all the time. I'm pretty sure I get stereo signals from
it.
Regards,
Matt-
> I think I have a similar problem in a spam can. There is a 1/8 plug
> coming out of the intercom that I can plug into a Garmin 496. The
> results are audible but poor. XM radio is barely audible but verbal
> warnings from the 496 are much clearer. Could it be that I need a 1/8
> mono to stereo adapter or is additional wiring required?
>
> Can I measure the resistance of the adapter to determine if it contains
> more than a solid connection?
>
> John Morgensen
>
> Roger Cole wrote:
>> Does anyone know if the 1/8-inch phone jack audio output on a Garmin
>> 396 is stereo or monaural? I plan to route this output into the
>> monaural input of the intercom. If the Garmin output is stereo, I can
>> do the two-resistor mixer that was mentioned previously in this thread.
>>
>> Roger Cole
>> 1946 Cessna 140, flying
>> Murphy Elite #709, working on fuselage
>> rcole927(at)earthlink.net
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RF interference fix? |
| From: | Erich_Weaver(at)URSCorp.com |
>From first flight, the GRT EFIS and EIS on my RV have indicated momenta
ry,
anomalously high fuel pressure readings, typically just before take-off
and
also when entering and in the pattern. Stewed over that for over a yea
r
before asking myself the question - how does the system KNOW Im going t
o
takeoff or land? Asking that question led me to the only possible answ
er:
it knows because I get on comm and announce it! A couple of weeks ago I
confirmed this - every comm transmission resulted in a sharp rise in fu
el
pressure. Yesterday I took it a step further, seeking to determine wha
t
the propogation mode was, and reasoned it was either RF interference or
some sort of magnetic coupling associated with the increased power
requirements during comm transmissions. The easy test was to get out m
y
battery operated handheld transceiver and transmit from inside the cock
pit
with the engine running and the EFIS/EIS powered up, so I did that firs
t.
Bingo - a similar increase in the fuel pressure reading, although to a
lesser degree than with ship's comm. Also noticed a lot of noise on my
handheld when receiving from inside the cockpit - noise that isnt
noticeable on ship's comm, nor on the handheld normally.So, now Im feel
ing
pretty high and mighty with my diagnostic skills, but the problem still
remains - where do I go from here to fix this?
thanks
erich
This e-mail and any attachments contain URS Corporation confidential
information that may be proprietary or privileged. If you receive this
message in error or are not the intended recipient, you should not reta
in,
distribute, disclose or use any of this information and you should dest
roy
the e-mail and any attachments or copies.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cessna 150F Landing/Taxi light switch. |
At 06:24 PM 6/6/2009, you wrote:
>I have a very basic question. The switch in question burnt out so I
>obtained a replacement. For the life of me I can't figure out which
>wire goes where. I have three wires, power and feeds to the Landing
>and Taxi lights. The switch has four connectors marked H,R,A,
>B. The case is marked 600 and is a pull switch with two positions.
>Can anyone help? I am aware it is not RV related. When I'm not
>flying my RV4 I have the Cessna to take pictures etc.
>SSD
It has been a VERY long time since I've seen these
switches installed on the Cessnas but if it's a
4-terminal switch I suspect that an ohmmeter test
will show that with the switch has no connections
with the handle all the way in.
With the handle pulled to the first notch, I think
the pair of terminals furthest from the panel will
be connected to each other. This pair is the taxi
light circuit. With the handle all the way out, the
pair of terminals closest to the panel will be connected
to turn on the landing light. In this position, the
taxi light will be out. Here's an exemplar 4-terminal
push-pull switch from Cole-Hersee
Emacs!
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | RF interference fix? |
At 11:27 AM 6/7/2009, you wrote:
From first flight, the GRT EFIS and EIS on my RV have indicated
momentary, anomalously high fuel pressure readings, typically just
before take-off and also when entering and in the pattern. Stewed
over that for over a year before asking myself the question - how
does the system KNOW Im going to takeoff or land? Asking that
question led me to the only possible answer: it knows because I get
on comm and announce it! A couple of weeks ago I confirmed this -
every comm transmission resulted in a sharp rise in fuel
pressure. Yesterday I took it a step further, seeking to determine
what the propogation mode was, and reasoned it was either RF
interference or some sort of magnetic coupling associated with the
increased power requirements during comm transmissions. The easy
test was to get out my battery operated handheld transceiver and
transmit from inside the cockpit with the engine running and the
EFIS/EIS powered up, so I did that first. Bingo - a similar increase
in the fuel pressure reading, although to a lesser degree than with
ship's comm.
This is not an uncommon problem with products
offered to the OBAM aircraft community. In the
TC aircraft world, we have to demonstrate immunity
from commonly encountered radio frquency stresses
in the lab during qualification tests.
Some of the instruments offere by Van's have
demonstrated sensitivity to VHF comm signals
from ship's transmitters.
Talk to GRT first. They have certainly
encountered this before. They know their product
better than anyone else and should be able to
recommend some filtering . . . probably compoents
added at the connector where the pressure transducer
wires come into the indicator.
Don't be surprised that there isn't a fix either.
These issues are realtively easy to fix during
prouduct development and qualification . . . but
MUCH more difficult later.
Also noticed a lot of noise on my handheld when receiving from
inside the cockpit - noise that isnt noticeable on ship's comm, nor
on the handheld normally.So, now Im feeling pretty high and mighty
with my diagnostic skills, but the problem still remains - where do I
go from here to fix this?
Igntion noise? The best way to enhance the performance
of a hand held transceiver is to provide connections to
the ship's regulator comm antenna. I used to recommend
a coiled loop of coax within reach of pilot in the
cockpit that could be opened with a pair of in-line
connectors.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/Coax/BNC_Cable_Female_1.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/Coax/BNC_Cable_Male.jpg
Put the cable-male on the feeder that goes to the the
antenna and leave enough slack in it to allow connection
to the hand-held. A pair of right-angle coax adapers
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/Coax/BNC_Rt-Angle_Adapt_2.jpg
can be used to do a small radius 180 degree turn in
the coax so that it will lay against the back of the
hand-held and exit downward.
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RF interference fix? |
At 06:31 AM 6/8/2009, you wrote:
>
>
>At 11:27 AM 6/7/2009, you wrote:
> The easy test was to get out my battery operated handheld
> transceiver and transmit from inside the cockpit with the engine
> running and the EFIS/EIS powered up, so I did that first. Bingo -
> a similar increase in the fuel pressure reading, although to a
> lesser degree than with ship's comm.
P.S. You may find it more practical to live with it.
After one understands how the problem manifests itself
then it may be easier to just let it go. I've had several
customers who've elected to not pursue a best-we-know-
how-to-do fix when the $time$ associated with the
fix was going to be pretty high.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 06:40 AM 6/4/2009, you wrote:
Greetings... I'm a bit confused on this subject after reading this
thread and similar threads in other lists. I have the same objective:
plug my iPod into my Xcom 760's audio in. The Xcom's documentation
says to use a 3.5mm mono jack in combination with a stereo-to-mono
adapter plug. My thought was to eliminate the adapter plug by simply
jumping the left/right channel pins on the jack itself, and this does
indeed give [seemingly] good results with both channels clearly
heard. But lately I've read that this may damage the iPod, and I
should be using resistors/capacitors and/or the adaptor, as though
the adaptor had some components built into it's small, moulded little
case. I'm relatively sure that this adaptor plug is doing nothing but
physically joining the left and right channels from the stereo plug
into a single tip on the mono plug, and is in no way electronically 'magic'.
Not wanting to damage my iPod, I'd be interested to know the science
behind all the posts saying 'don't do it' (wire the left and right
together), use the adaptor plug. Thanks!
The roots of this thread go back a few years. The
first adaptation I recall of a common commercial
stereo music product into an OBAM aircraft was for
a builder wanting to adapt a compact automotive
AM/FM radio to his airplane. In fact, he had pulled
a non-working ADF and was plugging the hold with the
automotive receiver. He missed the ADF's ability to
turn the AM radio stations.
This was before car radios featured low-level audio
output/input jacks. The only outputs were intended to
deliver WATTS of energy to speakers. Voltage levels
at the speaker output of such radios were much higher
than necessary to service the headphone level inputs
to intercom systems in tens of milliwatts.
The task then had several considerations. The output
stages of the radio were designed to deliver energy
to low resistance loads (4 ohm speakers). If not
similarly loaded in this new application, audio quality
at low output levels might suffer (cross-over distortion).
So the first thing we did was "load" the radio with
some handy but relatively low value resistor . . .
10 ohms, 1 watt was common.
After that, the too-high output voltage needed to
be attenuated to levels appropriate to headphone
input levels at the intercom. At the same time, the
right-left stereo signals needed to be mixed in a
manner that provided a summation of the two signals,
not a conflict. By conflict, I mean that simultaneous
positive and negative going transients in program
material do not cause large currents to circulate
between the right and left amplifier output stages.
The risk for damage to the system is low. The strongest
effect for these circulating currents is distortion
of the audio. It's common practice to first reduce
the potential for circulating currents between the
two outputs by artificially raising their output
impedances (series resistors) and then setting the
system losses with a downstream load (parallel
resistor) to set volume.
In this example
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/WalkmanAdapter.gif
only mixing resistors are called for but if the
signals from the audio source proved too strong, a
resistor on the order of 10 to 100 ohms could be
paralleled with the output to bring the level
down to size.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "j. davis" <jd(at)lawsonimaging.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Stero to Mono |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> The roots of this thread go back a few years. The
> first adaptation I recall of a common commercial
> stereo music product into an OBAM aircraft was for
> a builder wanting to adapt a compact automotive
> AM/FM radio to his airplane. In fact, he had pulled
> a non-working ADF and was plugging the hold with the
> automotive receiver. He missed the ADF's ability to
> turn the AM radio stations.
>
---------------snip -------------
Thanks so much for this inclusive explanation, Bob. In my particular case,
though, I *think* it's safe to assume that the modern Xcom 760 radio is designed
with iPod/CD player input in mind, and that any attenuation/gain/amplification
is done on the radio's c.b. The fact that the manufacturer states to simply use
a 3.5mm mono jack along with a stereo-to-mono adapter plug from the iPod
headphone out, enforces this assumption, in my mind.
My question, really, is if shorting the ring and tip pins on a stereo jack
installed on my panel is the electrical equivalent of using the adapter plug.
Which begs the question: do those adapter plugs contain any sort of electronic
components at all? Since the price of these critters ranges from $1.00 at the
Dollar store to $9.95 at the Source (Canadian Radio Shack, gold plated), perhaps
the high-end ones do, but I doubt it. The sound is good the way I've got it
(jack pins connected), hearing both channels mixed, good volume. Just don't want
to put my little iTouch at risk, as some have implied I may be doing...
Thanks, again!
--
Regards, J.
Sonex C-FJNJ, Jab 3300, Prince P-Tip
http://cleco.ca
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| J. Davis, M.Sc. | (computer science) |
| *NIX consulting, SysAdmin | email: jd at lawsonimaging.ca |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
and now... Deep Thought #35, by Jack Handy
When you go in for a job interview, I think a good thing to ask is if they
ever press charges.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Stero to Mono |
>Thanks so much for this inclusive explanation, Bob. In my particular
>case, though, I *think* it's safe to assume that the modern Xcom 760
>radio is designed with iPod/CD player input in mind, and that any
>attenuation/gain/amplification is done on the radio's c.b. The fact
>that the manufacturer states to simply use a 3.5mm mono jack along
>with a stereo-to-mono adapter plug from the iPod headphone out,
>enforces this assumption, in my mind.
Yes, we're talking headphone levels for
signal strength in both the aviation and
the pocket entertainment world. These voltage
levels are on in the ballpark with votlages
that are exchanged between component systems
on their line-in/out jacks.
>My question, really, is if shorting the ring and tip pins on a
>stereo jack installed on my panel is the electrical equivalent of
>using the adapter plug. Which begs the question: do those adapter
>plugs contain any sort of electronic components at all? Since the
>price of these critters ranges from $1.00 at the Dollar store to
>$9.95 at the Source (Canadian Radio Shack, gold plated), perhaps the
>high-end ones do, but I doubt it. The sound is good the way I've got
>it (jack pins connected), hearing both channels mixed, good volume.
>Just don't want to put my little iTouch at risk, as some have
>implied I may be doing...
The only way to see if there are components
included inside the adapter is to research
it from outside with test equipment. I suspect
they have none. Modern integrated circuits
are quite tolerant of "circulating currents"
so if you're satisfied with the audio quality
then no further action is necessary.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: xponder ant mounting |
At 01:55 PM 6/6/2009, you wrote:
>
>Since I already installed a reinforcement plate into the floor of my
>tailcone to mount my ground power receptacle, is there any reason
>that I can't mount my transponder antenna into the same plate an
>inch or two from the piper plug receptacle?
>
>Thanks in advance. I am loathe to drill holes into my skin without
>checking first.
I see no structural problems with it . . .
One usually mounts the xponder antenna
on the belly centerline. I presume your
ground power jack structure is off to one
side. I doubt that an off-center antenna
location is any big deal.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RF interference fix |
| From: | Erich_Weaver(at)URSCorp.com |
Thanks for the response Bob. I have called GRT - they did not seem to
be
familiar with this problem. I am also a follower of the Vans Air Force
list and multiple posts there have turned up only one other individual
with
similar fuel pressure symptoms, and I wasnt ever able to confirm that h
is
problem was RF related. This all seems strange to me as there are many
RVs
with similar equipment (SL-40 comm, GRT EFIS/EIS) and wiring (Z-13/8) t
hat
have my problem. Anyway, GRT suggested a ferrite filter , which I trie
d
without success. Looks like I may just have to live with this issue.
Good to know that the noise I hear on my handheld will likely disappear
by
connecting it to ships antenna. I have a small device that allows
switching between two radios on a single antenna, but have not yet hook
ed
it up - on my to do list.
thanks again
Erich
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Barrow <bobbarrow10(at)hotmail.com> |
I already have a B&C 40 amp alternator and a B&C SD20 aux alternator instal
led on my Lycoming. I also have 2 B&C LR3 regulators. Now I'm contemplatin
g swapping one of the LR3 regs for a SB-1 and using architecture Z12. I'm p
lanning on an IFR ship for long distance international flights.
These are my questions:
1. Is the battery contactor on Z12 a single point of failure that will take
out both of my alternators and leave me with only battery power. If so is
there a mod to Z12 that gets around this.
2. Under certain extreme power use configurations I may marginally exceed t
he capacity of the 40 amp main alternator. If the capacity of the 40 amp al
ternator is exceeded and the bus voltage sags will the 20 amp aux alternato
r switch on automatically (when regulated by the SB-1 regulator) and run co
ncurrently with the 40 amp main alternator to effectively provide 60 amps o
f useable current.
Regards Bob Barrow
RV7A
_________________________________________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Stone <rv8iator(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: xponder ant mounting |
Bob et al...
While on the subject of xponder antennae... I am helping with wiring of a Kitfox
(rag & tube) and we need to mount a xponder antenna. IIRC the antenna requires
a ground plane 12 inches in diameter. Is this correct? The xponder frequencys
are 1030 and 1090Mhz which is a wavelength of about 291mm and 275mm or
about 12 and 11 inches. I would think I would tune for the lower freq as the
higher would be inclusive.
A 12 inch diameter aluminum plate with the antenna monted in the center is my plan...
please feel free to educate me further!
Thanks...
Chris Stone
Newberg, OR
Rv's 'n' Kitfox's
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>Sent: Jun 8, 2009 10:26 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: xponder ant mounting
>
>
>At 01:55 PM 6/6/2009, you wrote:
>>
>>Since I already installed a reinforcement plate into the floor of my
>>tailcone to mount my ground power receptacle, is there any reason
>>that I can't mount my transponder antenna into the same plate an
>>inch or two from the piper plug receptacle?
>>
>>Thanks in advance. I am loathe to drill holes into my skin without
>>checking first.
>
> I see no structural problems with it . . .
>
> One usually mounts the xponder antenna
> on the belly centerline. I presume your
> ground power jack structure is off to one
> side. I doubt that an off-center antenna
> location is any big deal.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ---------------------------------------
> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
> ( appearance of being right . . . )
> ( )
> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
> ---------------------------------------
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z12 questions |
| From: | "rckol" <rckol(at)kaehlers.com> |
I would consider keeping the LR3 and use Z-14. It would address both of your concerns.
You would need another battery though.
--------
rck
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247431#247431
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John F. Herminghaus" <catignano(at)tele2.it> |
What is the acceptable/recommended resistance from a transponder antenna
to its ground plane. Have built your low ohm meter, so can measure in
milliohms.
Regards,
John Herminghaus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Erich_Weaver(at)URSCorp.com |
In my last post I said: "This all seems strange to me as there are man
y
RVs with similar equipment(SL-40 comm, GRT EFIS/EIS)and wiring(Z-13/8)t
hat
have my problem." Meant to say "....that DONT have my problem". Makes
more sense that way eh?
Got a private email from a List follower inquiring about the 'device'
referenced in my earlier post - it allows use of a handheld comm on the
main ships antenna for emergency use. Bob reviewed this product some t
ime
ago and seemed to think it was satisfactory. Here is a link to it
http://www.edmo.com/index.php?module=products&func=display&prod_id=
19280&cat_id
You will likely want to also get a patch cord to allow you to hook up y
our
headset to the handheld to make it easier to hear/transmit
erich
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z12 questions |
At 10:11 AM 6/9/2009, you wrote:
>
>I would consider keeping the LR3 and use Z-14. It would address
>both of your concerns. You would need another battery though.
>
>--------
>rck
Good answer. Z12 is a dual alternator enhancement of
Z12 that emulates the SD20 standby alternator offered
as STC on LOTS of TC aircraft.
I'll suggest that Z-13/8 is the elegant solution for
cost/weight/performance/reliability/simplicity. If
you're going to hang an SD20 on a fresh design, then
Z-14 is the better if not a bit heavier choice.
You can go to the smallest of engine cranking
batteries because of Z-14's ability to parallel them
during cranking.
Alternatively, battery contactor failure is pretty
rare . . . and you have the e-bus alternate feed to
back it up. You could consider a premium low-power
contactor and probably be just fine with Z-12 and
and SD-20/LR3 combination.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z12 questions |
At 08:00 AM 6/9/2009, you wrote:
>I already have a B&C 40 amp alternator and a B&C SD20 aux alternator
>installed on my Lycoming. I also have 2 B&C LR3 regulators. Now I'm
>contemplating swapping one of the LR3 regs for a SB-1 and using
>architecture Z12. I'm planning on an IFR ship for long distance
>international flights.
>
>These are my questions:
>
>1. Is the battery contactor on Z12 a single point of failure that
>will take out both of my alternators and leave me with only battery
>power. If so is there a mod to Z12 that gets around this.
>
>2. Under certain extreme power use configurations I may marginally
>exceed the capacity of the 40 amp main alternator. If the capacity
>of the 40 amp alternator is exceeded and the bus voltage sags will
>the 20 amp aux alternator switch on automatically (when regulated by
>the SB-1 regulator) and run concurrently with the 40 amp main
>alternator to effectively provide 60 amps of useable current.
Yes, you can run both alternators together but
getting them to share proportionately is difficult
without special paralleling regulators.
What situation demands more than 40A?
Alternatively, consider Z-14 and split the
loads between the two alternators.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
I want to add a canopy (open) warning switch to my Lanciar Legacy. I've
got a Dynon 180 which handles all the high tech stuff but I need the
appropriate switch and vendor information from which to source it.
Naturally the switch should be low profile or recessed and perhaps be
adjustable in depth such that it could be adjusted to the canopy
tightness.
The premise of the Dynon is to alert via a contact light of a normally
closed or normally open item. Basically if it's grounded, it closes the
switch and allows the turns the light green.
If you have completed such an installation I'd be glad to hear of what
switch you used and related frustrations if any.
Thanks in advance,
Glenn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> |
Personally I would use a buzzer from Radio shack instead of a light so it works
in bright sunlight.
Don't know if the Dynon will drive a buzzer or not but you might just avoid the
Dynon altogether and run the buzzer through the switch.
I'm assuming here you want a warning that you left your master on?...if so you
could wire the switch such the ground path goes thru the master switch.
If you just want a canopy open switch (not sure what value it really has?) then
you can just wire a simple circuit thru the buzzer or light your choice.
Either way there is not much point in going through the Dynon.
Frank
RV7a D100 and Ems10
I want to add a canopy (open) warning switch to my Lanciar Legacy. I've got a Dynon
180 which handles all the high tech stuff but I need the appropriate switch
and vendor information from which to source it.
Naturally the switch should be low profile or recessed and perhaps be adjustable
in depth such that it could be adjusted to the canopy tightness.
The premise of the Dynon is to alert via a contact light of a normally closed or
normally open item. Basically if it's grounded, it closes the switch and allows
the turns the light green.
If you have completed such an installation I'd be glad to hear of what switch you
used and related frustrations if any.
Thanks in advance,
Glenn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ground planes |
At 10:23 AM 6/9/2009, you wrote:
>
>
>What is the acceptable/recommended resistance from a transponder
>antenna to its ground plane. Have built your low ohm meter, so can
>measure in milliohms.
If you pay attention to cleanliness and pressure
on the mounting hardware surfaces that make
contact . . . see:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Antenna/Comm_Antenna_Installation.gif
This shows a comm antenna with a base attached
with screws. If you're mounting a blade transponder
antenna the same rules apply.
If you're mounting one of these things . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Antenna/Transponder_1.jpg
then all of the "grounding" happens under the nut
(not the best place but the outside flange holds
the gasket). The internal tooth lockwasher under
the nut "bites" into the ship's inner skin for
ground.
In any case, it's unlikely that you'll measure anything
significant with the low-resistance ohmmeter. A bonding
meter measures in fractions of micro-ohms.
Bottom line is that 99.999% of all antennas installed
with reasonable care for cleanliness and pressure at
the critical joints are going to be just fine.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RF interference |
At 10:57 AM 6/9/2009, you wrote:
>In my last post I said: "This all seems strange to me as there are
>many RVs with similar equipment(SL-40 comm, GRT EFIS/EIS)and wiring(Z-13/8)that
>have my problem." Meant to say "....that DONT have my
>problem". Makes more sense that way eh?
>
>Got a private email from a List follower inquiring about the
>'device' referenced in my earlier post - it allows use of a handheld
>comm on the main ships antenna for emergency use. Bob reviewed this
>product some time ago and seemed to think it was satisfactory. Here
>is a link to it
>
><http://www.edmo.com/index.php?module=products&func=display&prod_id=19280&cat_id>http://www.edmo.com/index.php?module=products&func=display&prod_id=19280&cat_id
>
>You will likely want to also get a patch cord to allow you to hook
>up your headset to the handheld to make it easier to hear/transmit
I really don't like those things . . . they use
a miniature phone jack that looks like #2 in the
view below.
Emacs!
It features a normally closed switch strut to
provide "feed through" of antenna connection to
the panel mounted comm. This "switch" is low
pressure, exposed to atmosphere and not terribly
reliable. If the thing gives you problems, the
intermittent will be with the panel mounted
radio.
I would prefer/recommend breaking into a coil
bit of slack in your regular comm antenna coax.
You shouldn't have to do this very often which
offsets the inconvenience.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: xponder ant mounting |
At 08:40 AM 6/9/2009, you wrote:
Bob et al...
While on the subject of xponder antennae... I am helping with
wiring of a Kitfox (rag & tube) and we need to mount a xponder
antenna. IIRC the antenna requires a ground plane 12 inches in
diameter. Is this correct? The xponder frequencys are 1030 and
1090Mhz which is a wavelength of about 291mm and 275mm or about 12
and 11 inches. I would think I would tune for the lower freq as the
higher would be inclusive.
A 12 inch diameter aluminum plate with the antenna monted in the
center is my plan... please feel free to educate me further!
The "ideal" ground plane has a radius equal to
the height of the antenna. I.e., about 2.6" for
a transponder.
Anything bigger, such as the 12" diameter is not
a "tuned" ground plane in which case make it any
size you wish. Anything bigger than the 2.6" radius
is not going to significantly alter performance.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Gribble" <dave.gribble(at)mchsi.com> |
| Subject: | problem in Bob's Wigwag.pdf circuit? |
Hello - I am new to the list so please don't flame me for posting this.
I am designing my landing lights around the circuit on page 4 of Bob's
Wigwg.pdf.
This is the circuit that uses the 4PDT switch, marked "4TL1-10 or equal"
I just ordered my switch today. My design goal of this circuit is to
have the switch function as OFF-WIGWAG-ON, with OFF in the bottom
position.
In completing my design, I noticed in the Honeywell datasheet for the
4TL1-10 switch (available at this link:
http://www.datasheetarchive.com/4TL1-10-datasheet.html ) does not match
the one in Bob's schematic.
The problem is that for the -10 switch in the datasheet, there are two
poles (pins 8 & 11) that are open in the center condition. The switch
in Bob's circuit requires all poles to be active in all positions.
After careful datasheet reading, I think that Bob's design will work
with a 4TL1-12 switch. It is supposedly the same circuitry as a -50
(which looks right) and has no momentary positions.
Can anyone confirm that I need to cancel my order for the -10 and get a
-12 instead? I'm hoping to find out quickly to avoid buying the wrong
switch.
I did search the archive and found a single poster mentioning that the
circuit didn't work... maybe this was why?
Thanks for any info,
dave
________________________________________________________________________________
Frank,
Thanks for your ideas. No, actually I want what I asked for, a canopy
alert light, not a "I forgot the master" warning light. The Dynon has
some great contact display features that allow one to connect gear down,
canopy open type things. When I'm ready to launch I'm looking strait at
the EFIS and should see a big red light. You are correct, the sun can be
a factor, but in PA where I live, rarely so. The probability of
forgetting the canopy on a sunny day in PA is probably much less than
forgetting it on an overcast day.
The buzzer is a great idea, but does one really want the buzzer in your
ears anytime the master is on and you are running around in sweat with
the canopy in tilt position?
I will stick to trying to find the right switch for mounting on the
canopy jam.
Glenn
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Hinde,
Frank George (Corvallis)
Sent: Tue 6/9/2009 5:47 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Canopy Switch
(Corvallis)"
Personally I would use a buzzer from Radio shack instead of a light so
it works in bright sunlight.
Don't know if the Dynon will drive a buzzer or not but you might just
avoid the Dynon altogether and run the buzzer through the switch.
I'm assuming here you want a warning that you left your master on?...if
so you could wire the switch such the ground path goes thru the master
switch.
If you just want a canopy open switch (not sure what value it really
has?) then you can just wire a simple circuit thru the buzzer or light
your choice.
Either way there is not much point in going through the Dynon.
Frank
RV7a D100 and Ems10
I want to add a canopy (open) warning switch to my Lanciar Legacy. I've
got a Dynon 180 which handles all the high tech stuff but I need the
appropriate switch and vendor information from which to source it.
Naturally the switch should be low profile or recessed and perhaps be
adjustable in depth such that it could be adjusted to the canopy
tightness.
The premise of the Dynon is to alert via a contact light of a normally
closed or normally open item. Basically if it's grounded, it closes the
switch and allows the turns the light green.
If you have completed such an installation I'd be glad to hear of what
switch you used and related frustrations if any.
Thanks in advance,
Glenn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tim Andres" <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net> |
Glenn, if you think the buzzer is a good idea but have the concern you
mentioned, just install a second switch on the throttle. If the canopy is
open and the throttle is opened more than enough for taxi..you get the idea.
Tim Andres
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
longg(at)pjm.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:50 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Canopy Switch
Frank,
Thanks for your ideas. No, actually I want what I asked for, a canopy alert
light, not a "I forgot the master" warning light. The Dynon has some great
contact display features that allow one to connect gear down, canopy open
type things. When I'm ready to launch I'm looking strait at the EFIS and
should see a big red light. You are correct, the sun can be a factor, but in
PA where I live, rarely so. The probability of forgetting the canopy on a
sunny day in PA is probably much less than forgetting it on an overcast day.
The buzzer is a great idea, but does one really want the buzzer in your ears
anytime the master is on and you are running around in sweat with the canopy
in tilt position?
I will stick to trying to find the right switch for mounting on the canopy
jam.
Glenn
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Hinde, Frank
George (Corvallis)
Sent: Tue 6/9/2009 5:47 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Canopy Switch
Personally I would use a buzzer from Radio shack instead of a light so it
works in bright sunlight.
Don't know if the Dynon will drive a buzzer or not but you might just avoid
the Dynon altogether and run the buzzer through the switch.
I'm assuming here you want a warning that you left your master on?...if so
you could wire the switch such the ground path goes thru the master switch.
If you just want a canopy open switch (not sure what value it really has?)
then you can just wire a simple circuit thru the buzzer or light your
choice.
Either way there is not much point in going through the Dynon.
Frank
RV7a D100 and Ems10
I want to add a canopy (open) warning switch to my Lanciar Legacy. I've got
a Dynon 180 which handles all the high tech stuff but I need the appropriate
switch and vendor information from which to source it.
Naturally the switch should be low profile or recessed and perhaps be
adjustable in depth such that it could be adjusted to the canopy tightness.
The premise of the Dynon is to alert via a contact light of a normally
closed or normally open item. Basically if it's grounded, it closes the
switch and allows the turns the light green.
If you have completed such an installation I'd be glad to hear of what
switch you used and related frustrations if any.
Thanks in ======================
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.Same
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href="https://exc03wwp.corp.ds.pjm.com/f5-w-687474703a2f2f666f72756d732p;
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05:53:00
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ian <ixb(at)videotron.ca> |
Simple switches that can be either normally open or normally closed are
those that are used on housing security systems. GE makes a line of
pressure operated switches like that, that fit into window frames.
An appropriate choice might depend on the area where you intend to mount
the switch, and the how small it needs to be.
Ian Brown
Bromont
Quebec
> Frank,
>
> Thanks for your ideas. No, actually I want what I asked for, a canopy
> alert light, not a "I forgot the master" warning light. The Dynon has
> some great contact display features that allow one to connect gear
> down, canopy open type things. When I'm ready to launch I'm looking
> strait at the EFIS and should see a big red light. You are correct,
> the sun can be a factor, but in PA where I live, rarely so. The
> probability of forgetting the canopy on a sunny day in PA is probably
> much less than forgetting it on an overcast day.
>
> The buzzer is a great idea, but does one really want the buzzer in
> your ears anytime the master is on and you are running around
> in sweat with the canopy in tilt position?
>
> I will stick to trying to find the right switch for mounting on the
> canopy jam.
>
>
> Glenn
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Hinde,
May 30, 2009 - June 09, 2009
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-is