AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-jq
July 25, 2010 - August 20, 2010
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > - Release Date: 07/24/10 01:36:00
> >
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>
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> Bob . . .
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306230#306230
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/z115_draft_576.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sylvain April <sapril001(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Jasco Voltage Regulator |
Hi all=2C
I have a 24V Skytronics alternator and voltave regulator.
The voltage regulator is damaged=2C one of the power transistor in the regu
lator is blown=2C there are 2 power transistors in the regulator and the on
e that is driving the alternator field is blown. I have checked the alterna
tor field circuit and it read about 6 Ohms=2C I think it is good.
I would like to know the PN. of the power transistors in this regulator=2C
the manufacturer have scratched off the component number. My guess is they
are TIP35 transistors=2C they are packaged in what look like a TO218 case.
Anyone can help?
Thanks
Sylvain April
C-GFFO Murphy Moose M-14P
_________________________________________________________________
Game on: Challenge friends to great games on Messenger
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734387
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Electrical System Schematic Review |
At 01:31 PM 7/25/2010, you wrote:
>
>[/quote]
> I hope you don't feel that this has been a "wasted" exercise.
>
> Not at all. In the course of building my plane, I have spent
> hours, weeks, years even, in developing ideas that ended up in the
> trash. But they are just the steps that I had to take to get to where I am.
Great.
Take a look at the drawing I posted at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Laury/
There's a .pdf version there too for folks that want
to watch/participate in what's going on.
The advent of 9024 production offers a "switched"
alternative to the "crowbar" ov system which makes
it more fuse-friendly. The fusible link fed circuit
breaker goes away.
I've drafted an architecture that might become a
new z-figure. It sort of addresses the problems
I was having with the abortive Z-13/20 drawing
I published a few years ago . . . and later
decided it was too much of a cluge.
The proposed architecture retains the "two layer"
power generation system (Like Z-13) that turns the
battery bus into a very robust as well as capable
power source. All circuit breakers go away.
If a builder can accommodate a relatively
large aux alternator, then the need for an
e-bus goes away too.
Let's stir this stew pot of simple-ideas for awhile
and see if it doesn't come closer to the elegant
solution for your project.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Jasco Voltage Regulator |
At 01:50 PM 7/25/2010, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>I have a 24V Skytronics alternator and voltave regulator.
>The voltage regulator is damaged, one of the power transistor in the
>regulator is blown, there are 2 power transistors in the regulator
>and the one that is driving the alternator field is blown. I have
>checked the alternator field circuit and it read about 6 Ohms, I
>think it is good.
>I would like to know the PN. of the power transistors in this
>regulator, the manufacturer have scratched off the component number.
>My guess is they are TIP35 transistors, they are packaged in what
>look like a TO218 case.
Does your alternator have one side of the field
connected to the b-lead, or does it go to ground?
If your field has one wire tied to ground, then
it's about a 99% bet that the pass transistor
for a switching regulator is a PNP device.
To saturate an NPN pass transistor, you need
a base-bias source that is at a higher voltage
than the bus. By using a PNP, you can turn that
puppy on by simply pulling the base toward
ground as shown in this sketch.
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/Early%20%27Ford%27%20SS%20Regulator.jpg
However, if your alternator has one field lead
attached to the B-lead terminal, then your
regulator may indeed use an NPN pass
transistor not unlike this example:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/IR_Alternator_Circa_1980.pdf
They tend NOT to be specification critical.
As long as it's not a darlington transistor,
about any power device of the proper polarity
SHOULD function.
However, it would be helpful to understand why
the first device smoked.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
Bob,
For a starter contactor mounted on the engine firewall, can I anticipate
any problems if the hot air from the oil cooler (180-200 deg F) is directed
onto the contactor?
Thanks,
Stan Sutterfield
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Hot Contactor |
At 09:53 PM 7/25/2010, you wrote:
>Bob,
>For a starter contactor mounted on the engine firewall, can I
>anticipate any problems if the hot air from the oil cooler (180-200
>deg F) is directed onto the contactor?
>Thanks,
>Stan Sutterfield
No, the starter contactor is not generally used during flight
and it's internal temperatures will be no hotter than the
ambient.
Battery contators are continuous duty devices and have significant
temperature rise above ambient. Since service life is influenced by
temperature, it's always good to minimize exposure to high
ambients. But as a general rule, the el-cheapo contactors we've
been using for decades seem to perform well under the cowl.
Actual in-flight temperatures may not be as hot as you think.
Just for grins, it would be cool to measure and document the
highest observed temperatures on selected components under the
cowl during a fly-off. You need to record OAT and local ambient
too for any single measurement.
I think the results will surprise you.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Electrical System Schematic Review |
| From: | "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
Z-Laury...I like it!
I need to get up to speed on the 9024 OVM and what it is capable of.
I already have an LR-3 that I was planning to use on the 60a alt.
This architecture is so simple that I hate to kluge it up, but I want a GPJ so
I will insert my GP /SB alt B lead contactor schematic and eliminate the SB alt
B lead diode.
Why is the 9024 more fuse friendly and why does it obviate the need for an alt
field CB?
Are you still seeing all engine essential power coming from the battery bus?
Ironic that this evolution started with my wanting to use Z-13/20 and you informed
me that you had pulled that Z-figure from the AEC book.
Cheers,
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306290#306290
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Hukill" <cjhukill(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | 4 into 1 dsub connector |
I'm wiring my RV10 for the Dynon network and am looking for a source for
a high quality (OBAM) 9 pin Dsub connector that would split into 4. The
Dynon solution is multiple 2 into 1 harnesses, but a 4 into 1 splitter
would be a more elegant solution, if such a device exists. The ribbon
mount connectors that Bob had on the list isn't appropriate for aircraft
critical systems, I believe, nor is the ribbon of sufficient gauge, but
a solid multi connector would be. All the normal searches have struck
out for me, but maybe someone knows a source?
Chris Hukill
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Low Voltage Warning Light |
| From: | Mike Fontenot <mikef(at)apexconsultingservices.com> |
For a low voltage light you are unable to ignore I installed on of these
Whelen stroble/flasters with my LR3 regular. Sits on the say, even a blind
dog can see it when it goes off.
http://www.galls.com/style.html?assort=general_catalog&style=GR309
On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 6:08 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 10:11 PM 7/24/2010, you wrote:
>
>>
>> Bob,
>> I am using an LR3 voltage regulator and a B&C 60 A alternator. Is it
>> acceptable to change out the supplied warning light for a red 12 volt led?
>>
>
> Yes, but the circuitry in the LR3 was designed
> to drive incandescent bulbs. You'll need to
> add some resistors to the LED circuit such that
> the LED mimics the bulb. See:
>
> http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LR3_LV_Led_1.jpg
>
> It would be in my direct line of sight so I do not think the lack of
>> blinking would be an issue. That is if the blinking is a function of the
>> light and not the regulator. Please let me know if there would be
>> problems
>> with using an led and if it would blink/
>>
>
>
> The flasher is built into the LR3.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
--
Mike
===============================
Mike Fontenot
Apex Consulting & Services LLC
Lakewood, Colorado
303 / 731-6645
mikef AT apexconsultingservices DOT com
===============================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
Morning, Everyone...
Last item for awhile. I just listed my never used or even powered
up Trutrak Turn and Bank for sale on eBay. The Dynon I now have
includes these features, so I won't need it.
This model is now selling for $495. I have no minimum and no
reserve (well, I guess the minimum is the current bid! ), so,
as before with the EMS, someone is going to get a real deal!
For ALL the details and several pictures, just search eBay for
the item number 350376359107. Or just search using the term
"Trutrak"...there are a couple of them listed, but mine is the
low price one!
Harley Dixon
Long EZ N28EZ
Canandaigua, NY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> |
Hi Harley
You don't seem to have included any postage details for outside the US.
Reagrds
John (England)
----- Original Message -----
From: Harley
To: undisclosed-recipients:
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 4:58 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Another One
Morning, Everyone...
Last item for awhile. I just listed my never used or even powered up
Trutrak Turn and Bank for sale on eBay. The Dynon I now have includes
these features, so I won't need it.
This model is now selling for $495. I have no minimum and no reserve
(well, I guess the minimum is the current bid! ), so, as before with
the EMS, someone is going to get a real deal!
For ALL the details and several pictures, just search eBay for the
item number 350376359107. Or just search using the term
"Trutrak"...there are a couple of them listed, but mine is the low price
one!
Harley Dixon
Long EZ N28EZ
Canandaigua, NY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
You're right, John...
I've just revised it, so they should be there shortly.
I drew this listing up from scratch instead of using a template,
and looks like I forgot to add the worldwide calculations to
it...even though the listing description does mention worldwide
shipping, it doesn't allow for actual numbers!
Thanks for bringing that up and I apologize..
Harley
-----------------------------------------------------------------
On 7/26/2010 12:09 PM, JOHN TIPTON wrote:
> Hi Harley
> You don't seem to have included any postage details for outside
> the US.
> Reagrds
> John (England)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Harley
> *To:* undisclosed-recipients:
> *Sent:* Monday, July 26, 2010 4:58 PM
> *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Another One
>
> Morning, Everyone...
>
> Last item for awhile. I just listed my never used or even
> powered up Trutrak Turn and Bank for sale on eBay. The
> Dynon I now have includes these features, so I won't need it.
>
> This model is now selling for $495. I have no minimum and
> no reserve (well, I guess the minimum is the current bid!
> ), so, as before with the EMS, someone is going to get a
> real deal!
>
> For ALL the details and several pictures, just search eBay
> for the item number 350376359107. Or just search using the
> term "Trutrak"...there are a couple of them listed, but
> mine is the low price one!
>
> Harley Dixon
> Long EZ N28EZ
> Canandaigua, NY
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> |
| Subject: | Maybe a rewrite? |
Bob,
You were writing Stan Sutterfield about contactors and this was a
quote:
" Battery contactors are continuous duty devices and have significant
temperature rise above ambient."
Cheers, Ferg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Electrical System Schematic Review |
At 02:15 AM 7/26/2010, you wrote:
>
>Z-Laury...I like it!
>I need to get up to speed on the 9024 OVM and what it is capable of.
See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9024/
>I already have an LR-3 that I was planning to use on the 60a alt.
Hmmmm . . . okay, the LR3 has crowbar ov protection so you'll
need to configure for the panel breaker . . .
>This architecture is so simple that I hate to kluge it up, but I
>want a GPJ so I will insert my GP /SB alt B lead contactor
>schematic and eliminate the SB alt B lead diode.
Would you plan to close two switches to bring
the aux alternator on line? You need one switch
to control the aux alternator field supply. If
You double-up on the ground power contactor
functionality, then selecting the aux alternator
requires an feature that closes that contactor
too. Let me ponder this a bit.
>Why is the 9024 more fuse friendly and why does it obviate the need
>for an alt field CB?
Because it doesn't "crowbar" it "breaks". If you simply
switch off the alternator, then there's no risk to nuisance
tripping a field supply fuse so crew accessible reset
is unnecessary. This is a throwback to ov protection
of yesteryear (the very first product I qualified for
use on a TC aircraft was an OV relay in 1975 or thereabouts).
The crowbar configuration came about as a parts reduction
scheme that was readily adaptable to aircraft that already
used circuit breakers. It got sticky when those slightly
demented OBAM aircraft guys renewed the romance with
fuses.
While the 9024 is designed to drive (ugh!) relays, it's
broad applicability as a contactor power controller, ABMM,
LVWarn and OVProtection, device renewed some interest in
relays . . . this was further enhanced by the availability
of automotive grade relays that are inexpensive while
being also robust.
In a sense, incorporation of microprocessors into
a single, multi-application accessory has re-opened
the books on 'older' technologies that were (and
still are) on the hit list for new designs in some
venues. But my grandpa would remind me that for all
the pneumatic nail and brad drivers I now possess,
sometimes the best way to drive some nails is with
a hammer!
> Are you still seeing all engine essential power coming from the battery bus?
Yes.
>Ironic that this evolution started with my wanting to use Z-13/20
>and you informed me that you had pulled that Z-figure from the AEC book.
Yeah . . . see what can happen when one breaks
a fixation on a bad idea and starts with a clean
slate?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Maybe a rewrite? |
At 03:06 PM 7/26/2010, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
> You were writing Stan Sutterfield about contactors and this
> was a quote:
>
>" Battery contactors are continuous duty devices and have significant
>
> temperature rise above ambient."
Hmmm. . . . thanks for the heads-up. I'm not sure how
I do it but occasionally a thought being typed gets truncated
after the keystrokes are in and I don't catch it. Maybe
too much coffee?
I'll be back in my M.L. office tonight, I'll go get that
post and fix it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 4 into 1 dsub connector |
At 09:12 AM 7/26/2010, you wrote:
>I'm wiring my RV10 for the Dynon network and am looking for a source
>for a high quality (OBAM) 9 pin Dsub connector that would split into
>4. The Dynon solution is multiple 2 into 1 harnesses, but a 4 into
>1 splitter would be a more elegant solution, if such a device
>exists. The ribbon mount connectors that Bob had on the list isn't
>appropriate for aircraft critical systems, I believe, nor is the
>ribbon of sufficient gauge, but a solid multi connector would be.
>All the normal searches have struck out for me, but maybe someone
>knows a source?
Those are generally fabricated by individuals
who have the application. Suggest you consider
ExpressPCB layouts to mount an array of the
necessary connectors on a single board. See:
http://expresspcb.com/
If you're not inclined to become a board layout
person, I or perhaps someone else on the List
could do the layout for you. A minimum order
from ExpressPCB would get you 6 or more of
the necessary boards for $59.
Emacs!
Be advised that this will only work to gang
like-sexed connectors. When you put rows of
connectors on "combed" traces, pin 1 will
be connected to pin 1 of all other connectors
only if they're the same gender.
The ribbon cable adapter was intended for
test purposes only. I've used a lot of mass-terminated
ribbon cable in test setups but not for
qualified production.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Electrical System Schematic Review |
| From: | "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
> Would you plan to close two switches to bring
> the aux alternator on line? You need one switch
> to control the aux alternator field supply. If
> You double-up on the ground power contactor
> functionality, then selecting the aux alternator
> requires an feature that closes that contactor
> too. Let me ponder this a bit.
In the 9th post of this thread, beginning "Bob and Joe..." I attached Z-12 w/SB
Alt contactor. I would wire the two contactors through a DPST as drawn with a
9024 instead of the OVM module
> Are you still seeing all engine essential power coming from the battery bus?
>
> Yes.
I was tapping power from the Ebus and Batt bus to diode bridges to drive my single
EFI ECU, and on another circuit the EFI Injectors. It seems that nothing changes
with engine essentials all on the battery bus. The redundancy of power
sources is just happening upstream of the batt bus and I still use two DPST switches
feeding the diode bridges, w/ ECU and Injector legs on each switch to eliminate
a single point of failure, i.e. the switch.
I'm feeling very comfortable with this scheme.
J
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306395#306395
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Stan's concerns for starter contactor locations (revisited) |
Quote:
Bob,
For a starter contactor mounted on the engine firewall, can I
anticipate any problems if the hot air from the oil cooler (180-200
deg F) is directed onto the contactor?
Thanks,
Stan Sutterfield
Stan,
Ferg looked at my previous posting on your query and
thought that I might do a better job . . . got my
tongue tangled around my eyeteeth and couldn't see
what I was typing . . . or some such excuse. Let's
try again
------------------------
No, the starter contactor is not generally used during flight
and it's internal temperatures will be no hotter than the
ambient.
Actual in-flight temperatures may not be as hot as you think.
Just for grins, it would be cool to measure and document the
highest observed temperatures on selected components like the
starter contactor, gascolator, magneto housings, any
electro-whizzies, etc. under the cowl during a fly-off. You
need to record OAT and local ambient under the cowl so that
any single measurement can be correct for other weather
conditions.
I think the results will surprise you.
On the other hand, battery contators are continuous duty devices and
exhibit significant temperature rise above ambient. Since service life
is influenced by temperature, it's always good to minimize exposure
to high ambients. But at the same time, the el-cheapo contactors we've
been using for decades seem to perform well under the cowl.
Once our 9024 series contactor power manager is in stock,
one could use it to greatly reduce the temperature rise
(and energy demands) for keeping the el-cheepo contactor
closed. This functionality emulates the much more expensive
"low power" contactors. Further, when and if contactor replacement
is necessary, you just replace a contactor . . . not the
contactor + smart control electronics.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Julian Pridmore-Brown <julian.pridmorebrown(at)gmail.com> |
Morning....I am in the process of a electrical system rebuild after a fire
on a Lancair IV. The notes I have from my Dad, the builder, indicate that it
was based on a Z-4 diagram. This was from about the mid 90's. Airplane first
flew in 1998. I am wondering if the current Z-14 is the updated
version....It looks pretty much the same. Also are there any notable changes
I should try to incorporate? The system had two batteries and two
alternators and a cross-tie that was normally open.
Thanks
Julian Pridmore-Brown
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 09:04 AM 7/27/2010, you wrote:
>Morning....I am in the process of a electrical system rebuild after
>a fire on a Lancair IV. The notes I have from my Dad, the builder,
>indicate that it was based on a Z-4 diagram. This was from about the
>mid 90's. Airplane first flew in 1998. I am wondering if the current
>Z-14 is the updated version....It looks pretty much the same. Also
>are there any notable changes I should try to incorporate? The
>system had two batteries and two alternators and a cross-tie that
>was normally open.
Good morning Julian. I recall our conversation a few
days ago on the phone.
Yes, Z-14 is the latest manifestation of the Z-4 drawing
in the book your dad was using. I don't think there have
been any changes significant changes to that drawing.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gordon Smith" <gordonrsmith921(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | E-Bus Off/On Indicator Light |
I would like to include an Off/On indicator light (LED) for the E-Bus
alternate feed when using a relay as in Z-32 for a heavy duty E-Bus
Alternate Feed. I understand that the LED will have to include a series
resistor in any case.
My questions are regarding both the plus 14V. source for the light and the
pull to ground for the light. Can the plus 14V. come from the power to the
relay or must it be a separate source? Can the ground side of the LED be
tied to the ground side of the relay coil going to the switch or must it be
separate? Can these be mixed and matched in any way.
I have illustrated the 4 combinations using Z-32 as a basis. Please see the
attached drawings.
Gordon Smith
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: E-Bus Off/On Indicator Light |
At 11:31 AM 7/27/2010, you wrote:
>I would like to include an Off/On indicator light (LED) for the
>E-Bus alternate feed when using a relay as in Z-32 for a heavy duty
>E-Bus Alternate Feed. I understand that the LED will have to
>include a series resistor in any case.
>
>My questions are regarding both the plus 14V. source for the light
>and the pull to ground for the light. Can the plus 14V. come from
>the power to the relay or must it be a separate source? Can the
>ground side of the LED be tied to the ground side of the relay coil
>going to the switch or must it be separate? Can these be mixed and
>matched in any way.
>
>I have illustrated the 4 combinations using Z-32 as a basis. Please
>see the attached drawings.
>
>Gordon Smith
Suggest you wire the LED in parallel with the
relay coil. If the light is lit, at least there
is power to the coil terminals and it's because
the switch is closed. Further, if you put the
LED current limiting resistor at the relay, then
potential fault current in the LED "hot" wire is
inherently limited by the resistor and no fuse
or other protection is called for.
Alternatively, you can take power directly from
a tap on the e-bus itself.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Can I ground starter switch at panel? |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> |
Would it be acceptable to feed 12V to the coil of my Rotax 914 starter relay and
only run 1 wire back to my panel mounted starter switch (looking for ground)?
I have power very close to starter relay, and ground very close to starter switch.
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306518#306518
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Can I ground starter switch at panel? |
At 09:41 PM 7/27/2010, you wrote:
>
>
>Would it be acceptable to feed 12V to the coil of my Rotax 914
>starter relay and only run 1 wire back to my panel mounted starter
>switch (looking for ground)?
>
>I have power very close to starter relay, and ground very close to
>starter switch.
Sure. Engine cranking systems are intermittent
use, short duration, almost never used in flight.
As the most demanding system on the airplane with
respect to power, it's also the most disruptive
of the otherwise quiet and orderly world of
battery powered systems. We don't generally expect
everything on the airplane to operate unperturbed
during a cranking event. We DO expect a graceful
recovery to normal operations afterward.
So as a general rule, the simplest recipe for
wiring the starter system that functions as needed
is the elegant solution.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: E-Bus Off/On Indicator Light |
| From: | "gordonrsmith921(at)yahoo.com" <gordonrsmith921(at)yahoo.com> |
Therefore I assume it is OK to tie the ground sides from the LED and the relay
coil together through a single pole switch.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306554#306554
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: E-Bus Off/On Indicator Light |
At 09:43 AM 7/28/2010, you wrote:
>
>
>Therefore I assume it is OK to tie the ground sides from the LED and
>the relay coil together through a single pole switch.
Sure . . . as long as multiple loads (coil and LED)
that share ground through switch also share the same
source of power.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: E-Bus Off/On Indicator Light |
| From: | "gordonrsmith921(at)yahoo.com" <gordonrsmith921(at)yahoo.com> |
So if the power source for the LED came directly from a tap on the e-bus itself
as you suggested as an alternate, in that case a double pole switch would be
required?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306565#306565
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | intermittent intercom |
| From: | Erich_Weaver(at)urscorp.com |
Feeling dumb about this question, but what the heck. My SL-40 radio is
wired to a PS Engineering PM1000 II intercom. Everything initially wor
ked
well, but the intercom function is now intermittent from the pilots
microphone side only. Transmit and reception are still fine. I cleane
d
the headphone plugs and corresponding socket contacts with no change.
I
have also made an initial inquiry with PS Engineering, who indicated th
at
the intercom circuit was dead simple and the unit itself was very unlik
ely
to be the problem. However, I have now realized that I often can
temporarily fix the problem by turning the intercom power off, then bac
k on
once or twice. Doesnt that in itself indicate that the problem is inde
ed
internal to the intercom? Given those symptoms, is there really anythi
ng
else to check before sending the unit back to the manufacturer?
thanks
erich
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David & Elaine Lamphere" <dalamphere(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: intermittent intercom |
Erich,
I have that very same intercom installed in my Wittman Tailwind -
connected to a KX125. While they (PS1000II) are a little more expensive
than other brands, they are really good quality and work really well -
even in a noisy cockpit. One thing I found out debugging my installation
is the need to keep the jacks isolated from the aircraft's ground. It's
really picky about that. You might verify those mike, headset sockets
are not contacting ground (and any socket contacts that could be
shorting out to each other or ground). Also check the aux mike and
headset sockets (that you can use when the intercom is removed).
Maybe you have an intermittent short to ground somewhere in your
installation.
I have to agree that it is doubtful the intercom unit is faulty -
possible, but not likely.
Hope you find the fix!
Dave L.
N365DL
----- Original Message -----
From: Erich_Weaver(at)urscorp.com
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 11:52 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: intermittent intercom
Feeling dumb about this question, but what the heck. My SL-40 radio is
wired to a PS Engineering PM1000 II intercom. Everything initially
worked well, but the intercom function is now intermittent from the
pilots microphone side only. Transmit and reception are still fine. I
cleaned the headphone plugs and corresponding socket contacts with no
change. I have also made an initial inquiry with PS Engineering, who
indicated that the intercom circuit was dead simple and the unit itself
was very unlikely to be the problem. However, I have now realized that I
often can temporarily fix the problem by turning the intercom power off,
then back on once or twice. Doesnt that in itself indicate that the
problem is indeed internal to the intercom? Given those symptoms, is
there really anything else to check before sending the unit back to the
manufacturer?
thanks
erich
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: E-Bus Off/On Indicator Light |
At 10:51 AM 7/28/2010, you wrote:
>
>
>So if the power source for the LED came directly from a tap on the
>e-bus itself as you suggested as an alternate, in that case a double
>pole switch would be required?
Not necessarily. But it does drive a requirement
to evaluate unintended consequences (sneak path)
for flow of current should one of the separate
sources go to zero.
What's the design goal for this light?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | intermittent intercom |
7/29/2010
Hello Erich, You wrote:
1) "Doesnt that in itself indicate that the problem is indeed
internal to the intercom?"
Not quite.
2) "Given those symptoms, is there really anything else to check before
sending the unit back to the manufacturer?"
Yes, make absolutely sure that it is not a headset problem. I trouble shot
my intermittent PS intercom / radio system extensively and communicated with
the PS factory who agreed to let me send it to them for a rather expensive
set fee for checkout and repair. But luckily before I sent it off I
discovered with a headset swap that I had an intemittent wire connection
inside one of my headsets.
Please let us know what fixes the problem.
'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."
PS: The Lightspeed headset company did a superb job of repairing and
updating the long time out of warranty faulty headset at only the cost of
shipping it to them -- great customer service.
=====================================================
Subject: AeroElectric-List: intermittent intercom
From: Erich_Weaver(at)urscorp.com
Feeling dumb about this question, but what the heck. My SL-40 radio is
wired to a PS Engineering PM1000 II intercom. Everything initially wor
ked
well, but the intercom function is now intermittent from the pilots
microphone side only. Transmit and reception are still fine. I cleane
d
the headphone plugs and corresponding socket contacts with no change.
I
have also made an initial inquiry with PS Engineering, who indicated th
at
the intercom circuit was dead simple and the unit itself was very unlik
ely
to be the problem. However, I have now realized that I often can
temporarily fix the problem by turning the intercom power off, then bac
k on
once or twice. Doesnt that in itself indicate that the problem is inde
ed
internal to the intercom? Given those symptoms, is there really anythi
ng
else to check before sending the unit back to the manufacturer?
thanks
erich
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: E-Bus Off/On Indicator Light |
| From: | "gordonrsmith921(at)yahoo.com" <gordonrsmith921(at)yahoo.com> |
The design goal for this light:
This light is to be an indicator that the E-bus alternate feed switch is in the
on position even though in most cases there would be other indications.
My thought go to shutting down and exiting the aircraft. Although I would never
do this some pilots have been known to leave the master on. The LV warning
light would be an indication that the master is on.
The exiting check list would be "All Lights Off!"
I am also considering the use of a Brownout Battery employed as in Z10-8. I envision
turning the E-bus alternate switch on to load flight plans, communicate,
etc. before turning on the master and starting the engine. The E-bus alternate
feed would be left on during cranking to start in order for the anti-brownout
feature to function. The light would be a reminder to turn off the E-bus
alternate feed switch after start. Although, I guess it would not be a great
sin if it were left on continuously during aircraft operation.
Gordon Smith
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306653#306653
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: E-Bus Off/On Indicator Light |
Design goals:
This light is to be an indicator that the E-bus alternate feed switch
is in the on position even
though in most cases there would be other indications.
I am also considering the use of a Brownout Battery employed as in
Z10-8. I envision turning the
E-bus alternate switch on to load flight plans, communicate, etc.
before turning on the master and
starting the engine. The E-bus alternate feed would be left on
during cranking to start in order
for the anti-brownout feature to function. The light would be a
reminder to turn off the E-bus
alternate feed switch after start.
Okay, the idea is to annunciate a closed
switch that controls a relay. The best
way to do that is put the lamp across the
coil of that relay.
Emacs!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Pondering dual alternator, dual bus, but single battery |
setup. (Newbie alert!)
| From: | Andrew Zachar <andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com> |
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I am just finishing up my emp kit, but am having a lot of fun researching
and pondering some of the electron-shuffling related questions for the
distant future. I've read the 'Connection once through (I realize I have 5
more times through before stuff will start settling in for good), but wanted
to throw something out their for constructive criticism. I have not had
enough time to really think through all of its implications yet, but I
wanted to run it by everyone to see if there are any large gaps in judgement
or understanding. I'll bold my primary questions toward the end of the
email.
A little background...
1) I like the avionics master switch, but intend on dual feeding the
avionics bus per the single point of failure concern.
2) I am not planning on a vacuum system, so the prospect of a backup 8A or
20A alternator is hard to turn down.
3) Aircraft is an IFR, glass, RV-7, and weight will be an issue (I realize
the image I've linked below is very close to Z-14, but I can't make the leap
to dual battery, dual alternator.)
4) I have not laid out all of the load (current) requirements for now, I'm
just being philosophical about layout concept.
This is my proposed setup, simplified greatly. Two busses, two alternators,
but single battery.
Here's a link to an image of my visio file:
http://n999za.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/n999za-electrical-concept.jpg
If anyone wants the visio file, write me back and I'll email it to you
directly.
(No making fun of any erroneous electrical symbols...I am a mechanical
engineer.)
While I will not be enjoying the quick load-shed capability that a true
endurance bus affords, it will get me an Avionics switch (I know, Mr.
Nuckolls, it will only take me 4 seconds to turn on and off my avionics
equipment, but I still can't seem to let go!), and I believe that with the
right cockpit indications, I can load shed with switches and breakers pretty
quickly. (Avionics bus OFF, Main bus OFF, turn off all switches and pull all
breakers. Then Main bus ON, no smoke? Okay, let's slowly bring back
essential systems. Avionics ON, no smoke? Good. Turn on essential avionics.
Let's find somewhere to land...or maybe I'm comfortable continuing in good
Wx...)
My big questions:
*1) Can I have a main alternator providing power on the main bus side and an
aux alternator providing power on the avionics side, but both buses are
connected through the battery?*
*2) Even with the bus tie open, doesn't this really turn into one big bus
through the battery?*
*3) Will one of of the alternators really be supporting all of the loads if
the voltage regulator setpoints are slightly different? Should I leave the
aux alt switch OFF for normal operations, or keep it on with a low voltage
regulator setpoint, and let it automatically "kick in" upon failure of the
main alternator?*
*4) Right now I have the main alternator powering the bus and battery
through the main bus contactor, but the aux alternator is connected to the
battery through the hot battery bus. If I use a 20A aux alternator, will I
need to go through the avionics contactor instead of through the hot batter
bus?*
*
*
I realize my (perhaps unrequited) love of an AMS and interest in a vacuum
pad alternator has pushed me into something very close to Z-14, so maybe I
should just thinking about adding a second battery, however, I am not
planning on an electric ignition only ignition system, so that level of
redundancy might be overkill for me. (Planning regular mags, but with the
g3i system I've been eyeing for a little while...).
I have been comfortable flying in single-battery, single alternator
installations in the soup for many years. Maybe I should just put everything
on a single bus, have a backup alternator with a setpoint just below the
main alternator, and be okay with everything going though a single battery
contactor.
Any initial reactions or suggestions?
--
Andrew Zachar
andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pondering dual alternator, dual bus, but single |
battery setup. (Newbie alert!)
| From: | Bill Boyd <sportav8r(at)gmail.com> |
Why not Z 13/8?
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Andrew Zachar wrote:
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
>
> I am just finishing up my emp kit, but am having a lot of fun researching
> and pondering some of the electron-shuffling related questions for the
> distant future. I've read the 'Connection once through (I realize I have 5
> more times through before stuff will start settling in for good), but wanted
> to throw something out their for constructive criticism. I have not had
> enough time to really think through all of its implications yet, but I
> wanted to run it by everyone to see if there are any large gaps in judgement
> or understanding. I'll bold my primary questions toward the end of the
> email.
>
> A little background...
> 1) I like the avionics master switch, but intend on dual feeding the
> avionics bus per the single point of failure concern.
> 2) I am not planning on a vacuum system, so the prospect of a backup 8A or
> 20A alternator is hard to turn down.
> 3) Aircraft is an IFR, glass, RV-7, and weight will be an issue (I realize
> the image I've linked below is very close to Z-14, but I can't make the leap
> to dual battery, dual alternator.)
> 4) I have not laid out all of the load (current) requirements for now, I'm
> just being philosophical about layout concept.
>
> This is my proposed setup, simplified greatly. Two busses, two alternators,
> but single battery.
>
> Here's a link to an image of my visio file:
> http://n999za.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/n999za-electrical-concept.jpg
>
> If anyone wants the visio file, write me back and I'll email it to you
> directly.
>
> (No making fun of any erroneous electrical symbols...I am a mechanical
> engineer.)
>
> While I will not be enjoying the quick load-shed capability that a true
> endurance bus affords, it will get me an Avionics switch (I know, Mr.
> Nuckolls, it will only take me 4 seconds to turn on and off my avionics
> equipment, but I still can't seem to let go!), and I believe that with the
> right cockpit indications, I can load shed with switches and breakers pretty
> quickly. (Avionics bus OFF, Main bus OFF, turn off all switches and pull all
> breakers. Then Main bus ON, no smoke? Okay, let's slowly bring back
> essential systems. Avionics ON, no smoke? Good. Turn on essential avionics.
> Let's find somewhere to land...or maybe I'm comfortable continuing in good
> Wx...)
>
> My big questions:
> *1) Can I have a main alternator providing power on the main bus side and
> an aux alternator providing power on the avionics side, but both buses are
> connected through the battery?*
> *2) Even with the bus tie open, doesn't this really turn into one big bus
> through the battery?*
> *3) Will one of of the alternators really be supporting all of the loads
> if the voltage regulator setpoints are slightly different? Should I leave
> the aux alt switch OFF for normal operations, or keep it on with a low
> voltage regulator setpoint, and let it automatically "kick in" upon failure
> of the main alternator?*
> *4) Right now I have the main alternator powering the bus and battery
> through the main bus contactor, but the aux alternator is connected to the
> battery through the hot battery bus. If I use a 20A aux alternator, will I
> need to go through the avionics contactor instead of through the hot batter
> bus?*
> *
> *
> I realize my (perhaps unrequited) love of an AMS and interest in a vacuum
> pad alternator has pushed me into something very close to Z-14, so maybe I
> should just thinking about adding a second battery, however, I am not
> planning on an electric ignition only ignition system, so that level of
> redundancy might be overkill for me. (Planning regular mags, but with the
> g3i system I've been eyeing for a little while...).
>
> I have been comfortable flying in single-battery, single alternator
> installations in the soup for many years. Maybe I should just put everything
> on a single bus, have a backup alternator with a setpoint just below the
> main alternator, and be okay with everything going though a single battery
> contactor.
>
> Any initial reactions or suggestions?
>
>
> --
> Andrew Zachar
> andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pondering dual alternator, dual bus, but single |
battery setup. (Newbie alert!)
| From: | Andrew Zachar <andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com> |
>From what I could gather, my main difference from Z-13/8 is that my avionics
bus (e-bus) will be primarily fed through what Z-13/8 calls the alternate
ebus feed, and the crossfeed I'm proposing will be for emergency use only,
and allow each bus to be fed from eachother, as opposed to the single
main-to-ebus direction (via diode) in Z-13/8.
This way I think I am providing dual power paths to both busses (instead of
just the ebus).
One of my questions (which is also related to Z-13/8) is that with the
battery contactor closed, the alternators are both connected to the battery.
Does this mean they can't be running...."handling load" or "moving
electrons" at the same time? Can I only have one on at a time?
-az
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Bill Boyd wrote:
> Why not Z 13/8?
>
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Andrew Zachar wrote:
>
>> Ladies and Gentlemen,
>>
>> I am just finishing up my emp kit, but am having a lot of fun researching
>> and pondering some of the electron-shuffling related questions for the
>> distant future. I've read the 'Connection once through (I realize I have 5
>> more times through before stuff will start settling in for good), but wanted
>> to throw something out their for constructive criticism. I have not had
>> enough time to really think through all of its implications yet, but I
>> wanted to run it by everyone to see if there are any large gaps in judgement
>> or understanding. I'll bold my primary questions toward the end of the
>> email.
>>
>> A little background...
>> 1) I like the avionics master switch, but intend on dual feeding the
>> avionics bus per the single point of failure concern.
>> 2) I am not planning on a vacuum system, so the prospect of a backup 8A or
>> 20A alternator is hard to turn down.
>> 3) Aircraft is an IFR, glass, RV-7, and weight will be an issue (I realize
>> the image I've linked below is very close to Z-14, but I can't make the leap
>> to dual battery, dual alternator.)
>> 4) I have not laid out all of the load (current) requirements for now, I'm
>> just being philosophical about layout concept.
>>
>> This is my proposed setup, simplified greatly. Two busses, two
>> alternators, but single battery.
>>
>> Here's a link to an image of my visio file:
>> http://n999za.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/n999za-electrical-concept.jpg
>>
>> If anyone wants the visio file, write me back and I'll email it to you
>> directly.
>>
>> (No making fun of any erroneous electrical symbols...I am a mechanical
>> engineer.)
>>
>> While I will not be enjoying the quick load-shed capability that a true
>> endurance bus affords, it will get me an Avionics switch (I know, Mr.
>> Nuckolls, it will only take me 4 seconds to turn on and off my avionics
>> equipment, but I still can't seem to let go!), and I believe that with the
>> right cockpit indications, I can load shed with switches and breakers pretty
>> quickly. (Avionics bus OFF, Main bus OFF, turn off all switches and pull all
>> breakers. Then Main bus ON, no smoke? Okay, let's slowly bring back
>> essential systems. Avionics ON, no smoke? Good. Turn on essential avionics.
>> Let's find somewhere to land...or maybe I'm comfortable continuing in good
>> Wx...)
>>
>> My big questions:
>> *1) Can I have a main alternator providing power on the main bus side and
>> an aux alternator providing power on the avionics side, but both buses are
>> connected through the battery?*
>> *2) Even with the bus tie open, doesn't this really turn into one big bus
>> through the battery?*
>> *3) Will one of of the alternators really be supporting all of the loads
>> if the voltage regulator setpoints are slightly different? Should I leave
>> the aux alt switch OFF for normal operations, or keep it on with a low
>> voltage regulator setpoint, and let it automatically "kick in" upon failure
>> of the main alternator?*
>> *4) Right now I have the main alternator powering the bus and battery
>> through the main bus contactor, but the aux alternator is connected to the
>> battery through the hot battery bus. If I use a 20A aux alternator, will I
>> need to go through the avionics contactor instead of through the hot batter
>> bus?*
>> *
>> *
>> I realize my (perhaps unrequited) love of an AMS and interest in a vacuum
>> pad alternator has pushed me into something very close to Z-14, so maybe I
>> should just thinking about adding a second battery, however, I am not
>> planning on an electric ignition only ignition system, so that level of
>> redundancy might be overkill for me. (Planning regular mags, but with the
>> g3i system I've been eyeing for a little while...).
>>
>> I have been comfortable flying in single-battery, single alternator
>> installations in the soup for many years. Maybe I should just put everything
>> on a single bus, have a backup alternator with a setpoint just below the
>> main alternator, and be okay with everything going though a single battery
>> contactor.
>>
>> Any initial reactions or suggestions?
>>
>>
>> --
>> Andrew Zachar
>> andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com
>>
>> *
>>
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Andrew Zachar
andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Pondering dual alternator, dual bus, but single |
battery setup. (Newbie alert!)
Andrew,
Don't make yourself crazy, buy Vertical Power's setup and add two
alternators. If you are really power hungry, use the B & C 20 amp job on
the pad. I'll tell you unless you are running air-condition and want to
stay cool when you blackout and are on backup you don't need the 20 amp
job.
Since you are building a new airplane with all the fancy-shmancy
electronic stuff, calculate your total draw when running the bare
essentials. VP will to that for you - how nice of them. If your panel is
worth what you'll pay for the technology, it won't draw more than 8 amps
(the whole thing). Use LED for everything except your sneakers and stay
away from radios that hum and double as hand warmers when you turn them
on.
In an RV-7, the handheld you are going to take a long for a backup runs
on batteries and will do most of your thinking.
Also, don't mention Avionics Switch here - you'll have bad dreams :)
Enjoy the adventure,
Glenn E. Long
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Andrew Zachar
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 2:15 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Pondering dual alternator, dual bus, but
single battery setup. (Newbie alert!)
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I am just finishing up my emp kit, but am having a lot of fun
researching and pondering some of the electron-shuffling related
questions for the distant future. I've read the 'Connection once through
(I realize I have 5 more times through before stuff will start settling
in for good), but wanted to throw something out their for constructive
criticism. I have not had enough time to really think through all of its
implications yet, but I wanted to run it by everyone to see if there are
any large gaps in judgement or understanding. I'll bold my primary
questions toward the end of the email.
A little background...
1) I like the avionics master switch, but intend on dual feeding the
avionics bus per the single point of failure concern.
2) I am not planning on a vacuum system, so the prospect of a backup 8A
or 20A alternator is hard to turn down.
3) Aircraft is an IFR, glass, RV-7, and weight will be an issue (I
realize the image I've linked below is very close to Z-14, but I can't
make the leap to dual battery, dual alternator.)
4) I have not laid out all of the load (current) requirements for now,
I'm just being philosophical about layout concept.
This is my proposed setup, simplified greatly. Two busses, two
alternators, but single battery.
Here's a link to an image of my visio file:
http://n999za.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/n999za-electrical-concept.jpg
If anyone wants the visio file, write me back and I'll email it to you
directly.
(No making fun of any erroneous electrical symbols...I am a mechanical
engineer.)
While I will not be enjoying the quick load-shed capability that a true
endurance bus affords, it will get me an Avionics switch (I know, Mr.
Nuckolls, it will only take me 4 seconds to turn on and off my avionics
equipment, but I still can't seem to let go!), and I believe that with
the right cockpit indications, I can load shed with switches and
breakers pretty quickly. (Avionics bus OFF, Main bus OFF, turn off all
switches and pull all breakers. Then Main bus ON, no smoke? Okay, let's
slowly bring back essential systems. Avionics ON, no smoke? Good. Turn
on essential avionics.
Let's find somewhere to land...or maybe I'm comfortable continuing in
good
Wx...)
My big questions:
*1) Can I have a main alternator providing power on the main bus side
and an aux alternator providing power on the avionics side, but both
buses are connected through the battery?*
*2) Even with the bus tie open, doesn't this really turn into one big
bus through the battery?*
*3) Will one of of the alternators really be supporting all of the loads
if the voltage regulator setpoints are slightly different? Should I
leave the aux alt switch OFF for normal operations, or keep it on with a
low voltage regulator setpoint, and let it automatically "kick in" upon
failure of the main alternator?*
*4) Right now I have the main alternator powering the bus and battery
through the main bus contactor, but the aux alternator is connected to
the battery through the hot battery bus. If I use a 20A aux alternator,
will I need to go through the avionics contactor instead of through the
hot batter
bus?*
*
*
I realize my (perhaps unrequited) love of an AMS and interest in a
vacuum pad alternator has pushed me into something very close to Z-14,
so maybe I should just thinking about adding a second battery, however,
I am not planning on an electric ignition only ignition system, so that
level of redundancy might be overkill for me. (Planning regular mags,
but with the g3i system I've been eyeing for a little while...).
I have been comfortable flying in single-battery, single alternator
installations in the soup for many years. Maybe I should just put
everything on a single bus, have a backup alternator with a setpoint
just below the main alternator, and be okay with everything going though
a single battery contactor.
Any initial reactions or suggestions?
--
Andrew Zachar
andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pondering dual alternator, dual bus, but single |
battery setup. (Newbie alert!)
| From: | Andrew Zachar <andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com> |
I definitely like the VP stuff, especially if Dynon (favorite for now) can
get up to speed with the VP-X integration.
"Also, don't mention Avionics Switch here - you'll have bad dreams :)"
But I was dual feeding the Avionics bus! I thought the AMS as a single point
of failure was the bad juju. :-)
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 3:33 PM, wrote:
>
> Andrew,
>
> Don't make yourself crazy, buy Vertical Power's setup and add two
> alternators. If you are really power hungry, use the B & C 20 amp job on
> the pad. I'll tell you unless you are running air-condition and want to
> stay cool when you blackout and are on backup you don't need the 20 amp
> job.
>
> Since you are building a new airplane with all the fancy-shmancy
> electronic stuff, calculate your total draw when running the bare
> essentials. VP will to that for you - how nice of them. If your panel is
> worth what you'll pay for the technology, it won't draw more than 8 amps
> (the whole thing). Use LED for everything except your sneakers and stay
> away from radios that hum and double as hand warmers when you turn them
> on.
>
> In an RV-7, the handheld you are going to take a long for a backup runs
> on batteries and will do most of your thinking.
>
> Also, don't mention Avionics Switch here - you'll have bad dreams :)
>
> Enjoy the adventure,
>
> Glenn E. Long
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Andrew Zachar
> Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 2:15 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Pondering dual alternator, dual bus, but
> single battery setup. (Newbie alert!)
>
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
>
> I am just finishing up my emp kit, but am having a lot of fun
> researching and pondering some of the electron-shuffling related
> questions for the distant future. I've read the 'Connection once through
> (I realize I have 5 more times through before stuff will start settling
> in for good), but wanted to throw something out their for constructive
> criticism. I have not had enough time to really think through all of its
> implications yet, but I wanted to run it by everyone to see if there are
> any large gaps in judgement or understanding. I'll bold my primary
> questions toward the end of the email.
>
> A little background...
> 1) I like the avionics master switch, but intend on dual feeding the
> avionics bus per the single point of failure concern.
> 2) I am not planning on a vacuum system, so the prospect of a backup 8A
> or 20A alternator is hard to turn down.
> 3) Aircraft is an IFR, glass, RV-7, and weight will be an issue (I
> realize the image I've linked below is very close to Z-14, but I can't
> make the leap to dual battery, dual alternator.)
> 4) I have not laid out all of the load (current) requirements for now,
> I'm just being philosophical about layout concept.
>
> This is my proposed setup, simplified greatly. Two busses, two
> alternators, but single battery.
>
> Here's a link to an image of my visio file:
> http://n999za.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/n999za-electrical-concept.jpg
>
> If anyone wants the visio file, write me back and I'll email it to you
> directly.
>
> (No making fun of any erroneous electrical symbols...I am a mechanical
> engineer.)
>
> While I will not be enjoying the quick load-shed capability that a true
> endurance bus affords, it will get me an Avionics switch (I know, Mr.
> Nuckolls, it will only take me 4 seconds to turn on and off my avionics
> equipment, but I still can't seem to let go!), and I believe that with
> the right cockpit indications, I can load shed with switches and
> breakers pretty quickly. (Avionics bus OFF, Main bus OFF, turn off all
> switches and pull all breakers. Then Main bus ON, no smoke? Okay, let's
> slowly bring back essential systems. Avionics ON, no smoke? Good. Turn
> on essential avionics.
> Let's find somewhere to land...or maybe I'm comfortable continuing in
> good
> Wx...)
>
> My big questions:
> *1) Can I have a main alternator providing power on the main bus side
> and an aux alternator providing power on the avionics side, but both
> buses are connected through the battery?*
> *2) Even with the bus tie open, doesn't this really turn into one big
> bus through the battery?*
> *3) Will one of of the alternators really be supporting all of the loads
> if the voltage regulator setpoints are slightly different? Should I
> leave the aux alt switch OFF for normal operations, or keep it on with a
> low voltage regulator setpoint, and let it automatically "kick in" upon
> failure of the main alternator?*
> *4) Right now I have the main alternator powering the bus and battery
> through the main bus contactor, but the aux alternator is connected to
> the battery through the hot battery bus. If I use a 20A aux alternator,
> will I need to go through the avionics contactor instead of through the
> hot batter
> bus?*
> *
> *
> I realize my (perhaps unrequited) love of an AMS and interest in a
> vacuum pad alternator has pushed me into something very close to Z-14,
> so maybe I should just thinking about adding a second battery, however,
> I am not planning on an electric ignition only ignition system, so that
> level of redundancy might be overkill for me. (Planning regular mags,
> but with the g3i system I've been eyeing for a little while...).
>
> I have been comfortable flying in single-battery, single alternator
> installations in the soup for many years. Maybe I should just put
> everything on a single bus, have a backup alternator with a setpoint
> just below the main alternator, and be okay with everything going though
> a single battery contactor.
>
> Any initial reactions or suggestions?
>
>
> --
> Andrew Zachar
> andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com
>
>
--
Andrew Zachar
andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pondering dual alternator, dual bus, but single |
battery setup. (Newbie alert!)
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> |
On 07/29/2010 03:47 PM, Andrew Zachar wrote:
> I definitely like the VP stuff, especially if Dynon (favorite for now)
> can get up to speed with the VP-X integration.
Ditto. I'm leaning heavily towards the Dynon Skyview, but if they do
not have VP-X support by the time I am ready to buy, that would be a
deal breaker. GRT is my second choice.
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Grumman Yankee Driver N9870L - http://deej.net/yankee/
Join us on the New England Aviation Forums - http://forum.deej.net/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: dual bus, single battery |
At 01:52 PM 7/29/2010, you wrote:
>>Why not Z 13/8?
>>> Or Z8? See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Laury/Z-Laury_A.pdf
While I will not be enjoying the quick load-shed capability that a
true endurance bus affords, it will get me an Avionics switch (I
know, Mr. Nuckolls, it will only take me 4 seconds to turn on and off
my avionics equipment, but I still can't seem to let go!)
>>> Are you planning to install avionics known to be
>>> so fragile that they cannot tolerate life in
>>> the "aircraft wild"?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Grosseair <grosseair(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Pondering dual alternator, dual bus, but single |
battery setup. (Newbie alert!)
At the Dynon forum on Monday they sounded like they weren't really too interested
in Vertical Power integration. They have "more important things they're working
on."
I came to Oskosh this week fully expecting to buy a GRT system but wanting to have
one last look at all of them. After demos and forums, I wound up going with
the Advanced Flight system. It has more of the features I want and integrates
better with my other equipment for less money than Grand Rapids. (Dynon is cheaper
but lacks some of the features I want.
John Grosse
Super IIRG
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 29, 2010, at 4:05 PM, Dj Merrill wrote:
>
> On 07/29/2010 03:47 PM, Andrew Zachar wrote:
>> I definitely like the VP stuff, especially if Dynon (favorite for now)
>> can get up to speed with the VP-X integration.
>
>
> Ditto. I'm leaning heavily towards the Dynon Skyview, but if they do
> not have VP-X support by the time I am ready to buy, that would be a
> deal breaker. GRT is my second choice.
>
> -Dj
>
> --
> Dj Merrill - N1JOV
> Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
> Grumman Yankee Driver N9870L - http://deej.net/yankee/
> Join us on the New England Aviation Forums - http://forum.deej.net/
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: dual bus, single battery |
| From: | Andrew Zachar <andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com> |
Of course, all installed avionics will be aircraft wild tolerant... I do admit,
the appeal of an AMS is purely aesthetic (convenience, really), one switch flip
after engine start brings them all online, why have avionics on before the
start if you dont have to? The second feed should cover me from the dreaded single
point failure scenario.
But also, what I'm calling an AMS is really just an ebus alternate feed switch
in other z drawings (the ebusses are always dual-fed), and I'm substituting a
crossfeed contactor for the diode normally used to act as my backup bus feed.
I'm just not splitting things up based on a load shed scenario, but rather a normal
operations convenience scenario.
I thought I understood all of the heartburn about the AMS switch after reading
the connection and some supplementary articles on the website... Am I still missing
something?
Keep the thoughts coming, though; I haven't quite convinced myself that I should
let convenience drive my architecture as opposed to some other factor (like
fast load shedding!).
I appreciate everyone's replies (and of course, the opportunity to learn from all
of the posts and discussions shared on the list).
__
Andrew Zachar
andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com
On Jul 29, 2010, at 6:02 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
wrote:
>
> At 01:52 PM 7/29/2010, you wrote:
>
> >>Why not Z 13/8?
>
> >>> Or Z8? See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Laury/Z-Laury_A.pdf
>
> While I will not be enjoying the quick load-shed capability that a true endurance
bus affords, it will get me an Avionics switch (I know, Mr. Nuckolls, it
will only take me 4 seconds to turn on and off my avionics equipment, but I still
can't seem to let go!)
>
> >>> Are you planning to install avionics known to be
> >>> so fragile that they cannot tolerate life in
> >>> the "aircraft wild"?
>
>
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pondering dual alternator, dual bus, but single |
battery setup. (Newbie alert!)
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> |
On 7/29/2010 8:52 PM, Grosseair wrote:
>
> At the Dynon forum on Monday they sounded like they weren't really too interested
in Vertical Power integration. They have "more important things they're working
on."
Interesting! Thanks for posting that. I'm at least a year out from
any shopping sprees (probably more like 2-3 years), but if they have no
interest in supporting the VP-X, I guess I can take them off my list.
>
> I came to Oskosh this week fully expecting to buy a GRT system but wanting to
have one last look at all of them. After demos and forums, I wound up going with
the Advanced Flight system. It has more of the features I want and integrates
better with my other equipment for less money than Grand Rapids. (Dynon is
cheaper but lacks some of the features I want.
>
I'll have to look at the AFS systems. I admit I don't know that much
about them.
Thanks!
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Grumman Yankee Driver N9870L - http://deej.net/yankee/
Join us on the New England Aviation Forums - http://forum.deej.net/
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | How to wire a LED to a LR3C |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> |
Hi Bob
I have selected a yellow LED to be used with my 12V LR3C.
It came from Pep boys wired with a 680 ohm resistor and works quite well on 12
volts.
The reason I like it's very bright and doesn't have a flange at the bottom and
is longer than normal which allows me to have it extend a little bit from panel
which can get my attention even though it is located above my knees because
the semiconductor point is in fact in my view.
Question is since 680 ohms is a bit more resistance that I normally use to drop
12 volts to run a yellow LED, does your suggestion of installing two 220 ohm
resistors (one in series and one in parallel) hold true for this LED? Or perhaps
up the ohms a little?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306780#306780
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: How to wire a LED to a LR3C |
At 12:56 AM 7/30/2010, you wrote:
>
>
>Hi Bob
>
>I have selected a yellow LED to be used with my 12V LR3C.
>
>It came from Pep boys wired with a 680 ohm resistor and works quite
>well on 12 volts.
>
>The reason I like it's very bright and doesn't have a flange at the
>bottom and is longer than normal which allows me to have it extend a
>little bit from panel which can get my attention even though it is
>located above my knees because the semiconductor point is in fact in my view.
>
>Question is since 680 ohms is a bit more resistance that I normally
>use to drop 12 volts to run a yellow LED, does your suggestion of
>installing two 220 ohm resistors (one in series and one in parallel)
>hold true for this LED? Or perhaps up the ohms a little?
If the intensity is okay with the as-supplied
resistor, just parallel the lamp assembly with
sufficiently low resistant to prevent a tiny
bit of glow when the LR3 is NOT flashing the
light. There's a few milliamps of current flowing
in a dark lamp on the LR3's lamp driver output
that won't get any light out of a filament but
will illuminate an led. You just need to swamp
out the effects of this bias current to keep
the led dark.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: dual bus, single battery |
>I thought I understood all of the heartburn about the AMS switch
>after reading the connection and some supplementary articles on the
>website... Am I still missing something?
Probably not. The design goals behind the Z-figures is to
minimize weight, complexity, cost and risk. I.e. the
elegant solution. Beyond that, one can make any number
of variations to suit personal tastes . . . it's like
picking paint colors and upholstery fabric. The only
caveat is to be sensitive to increases in risk . . .
which may be perfectly acceptable . . . it's your
choice.
>Keep the thoughts coming, though; I haven't quite convinced myself
>that I should let convenience drive my architecture as opposed to
>some other factor (like fast load shedding!).
Speed in the load shedding activity is not a big
design driver. If you finished a cup of coffee with
the low voltage light flashing, it probably wouldn't
make any difference in the outcome of your flight.
Other than smoke in the cockpit or sparks from a
radio, no electrical failure is cause for heroic
action.
My advice to builders over the years is to take
a Z-figure (mature and well examined over the
years) that most closely meets your needs and
then identify shortfalls that my be unique to
your needs and desires.
If the shortfalls are just matters of preference
and do not drive risk to unacceptable levels,
why not modify accordingly? What we cannot do
as an advisory group is put weight on preferences
nor willingness to accept risk. We can't even
put numbers on risk.
All that can be said about the Z-figures is that
they've been pondered and proven over the past
20 years or so and offer comfortable recipes
for success. The Z-figures are not the ONLY
recipes for success. But a NEW recipe necessarily
starts the proofing task over.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
Discussions with Jon Laury combined with conversation
about the abortive Z-13/8 architecture some months
ago have prompted a new Z-figure.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z08A-PRELIMINARY.pdf
Design goals include but are not limited to
Fuseblock-friendly design (crowbar ov protection
replaced with new field disconnect relay system.
Two layer electrical system similar to that crafted
in Z-13/8.
No practical limit to the size of the aux alternator.
Anything from the SD-20 on up can be adapted to this
architecture.
Single battery.
This architecture seems well suited to electrically
dependent engines where demand for energy exceeds
what an SD-8 can supply. The two-layer architecture
(as opposed to single-layer like Z-12) offers a way
to make the majority of the ship's electrical system
completely cold while maintaining engine operations.
I'm still pondering the ingredients that might work
best in this recipe for success. Thought I would share
it with the group. It's a good example of how new
and useful things can evolve from a group of folks
willing to throw some stuff against the wall to see
what sticks!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | D <dfritzj(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: E-Bus Off/On Indicator Light |
For what it's worth, I plan to put my nav/strobes (probably of the LED
variety) on my E-bus as just such a reminder. Pretty hard to miss the
strobes flashing as you give the plane a last look before walking away.
Dan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gordon Smith" <gordonrsmith921(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Power Schematic for Review |
I have laid out a preliminary electrical system schematic for an all metal
aircraft (Sonex) powered by a Jabiru 3300 engine. I would appreciate Bob's
and other lister's comments. I have not yet done a complete Bus Load
analysis so some of the wire sizes, fuse sizes and other options could
change. I have not included the ignition systems in that they are totally
independent of the aircraft electrical system.
In considering the possible Z figures, I found that Z20 (small Jabiru) and
Z21 (J3300) did not quite offer what I was hoping to accomplish. I believe
that Z16 (Rotax 912/914) offered what I would like to have as a basis.
Even though we have been cautioned about cherry picking the various Z
figures, there are some features in other Z figures that I would like to
incorporate.
* First, I would like to incorporate the soon to be available AEC9024
device for control of the master contactor, the OV disconnect relay and as a
LV warning device. I cherry picked this from Z09 and Z-Laury. I might not
have the pin-outs correct, but that can be updated easily at a later time,
when the specs are published. I like the idea of a "Breaker-less" panel.
* I would like to use the JD101406 Rectifier/Regulator, as in Z09, in
place of the Jabiru supplied unit. I understand that this might be a more
robust option.
* I would like to have the Alternator OV Disconnect Relay to Open one
of the Dynamo leads as in Z16 instead of the +B lead as in Z21.
* There are two other major options that I would like to consider:
1. BROWNOUT BATTERY WITH B/O RELAY. This as is illustrated in Z10-8.
I am considering a MGL EFIS system. They (and others, I believe) offer an
option to use a backup battery that is exclusive to powering the EFIS and
its accessories. I think that a well designed and crafted E-Bus system
makes this exclusive backup unnecessary and redundant. The exclusive backup
battery cannot be kept charged unless turned "ON" during operation of the
EFIS from the main power source. The Z-10-8 type of backup not only offers
a seamless full voltage for ALL E-Bus items, during cranking to start, but
adds to the alternator out E-Bus operating time capacity. It will also be
topped off and maintained automatically when the main battery is connected
to a remote maintainer through the Aux. 12V. Power plug in the panel.
2. E-BUS ALTERNATE FEED RELAY. This as in Z32. In that I have not
finalized the calculation of the E-Bus loads, this may or may not be needed.
What is the continuous (and intermittent) E-Bus amperage point at which the
relay should be implemented? I have incorporated a LED light indicator to
show that the E-Bus feed is closed (ON) in any case.
The other thing that needs to be reviewed is the use of FUSEABLELINKS. We
have also been cautioned to not incorporate them accept in special
considerations so please comment:
* Fuseablelink in the alternator +B lead at the starter contactor as
in Z16, Z18, Z20 and in the alt alternator +B lead to the hot side of the
main battery contactor of Z8.
* Fuseablelink in the E-Bus alternate feed path at the connection to
the E-Bus as in Z13-8 and Z13-8 E-Bus Feeders.
* Fuseablelink in the E-Bus alternate feed from the hot side of the
battery contactor as in Z16 and Z18.
* Fuseablelink at the B/O battery hot lead to the E-Bus alt. feed
relay or switch. In this use I could not find illustration in the Z
figures. However I think that it might be logical to assume that this use
is OK if the use mentioned directly above from the hot side of the main
battery is OK.
I have attached a four page illustration that shows all options. The first
page (D) shows the inclusion of both options. Next (C) and (B) illustrate
the two options implemented singly. The last page (A) includes neither
option.
Gordon Smith
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New Z-8 drawing |
| From: | "rckol" <rckol(at)kaehlers.com> |
I might be missing something here, but it seems that unlike the Z13/8, if the battery
contactor is open, only the battery bus will be fed by the aux alt (no
feed for equipment that might be on a traditional ebus, like minimal pfd, nav
and comm).
Is this the intent, or do these other functions get piled into the battery bus?
--------
rck
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306868#306868
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New Z-8 drawing |
At 06:09 PM 7/30/2010, you wrote:
>
>I might be missing something here, but it seems that unlike the
>Z13/8, if the battery contactor is open, only the battery bus will
>be fed by the aux alt (no feed for equipment that might be on a
>traditional ebus, like minimal pfd, nav and comm).
>
>Is this the intent, or do these other functions get piled into the
>battery bus?
One could add an e-bus to this architecture . . . and
in fact, I'll do so at the next iteration.
Thanks for bringing it up. I hadn't really got that
far yet . . . the e-bus can be added to virtually
any architecture. I was fixated on getting the fat
wires managed first.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
| Subject: | Follow Up, New Engine Monitor and T&B on eBay |
Just a follow up RE the eBay sale of my brand new,
IK-technologies EMS and Trutak Pictorial Turn Coordinator.
Only a few days left, and it really looks like someone is going
to get a real bargain for either of them. So, if you want a NEW
EMS or Trutrak, at a VERY decent price, now is the time to have a
look.
The "Buy It Now" price is even below the current market price.
For ALL the details and several pictures, just search eBay for
the item number 350376359107 and 350375561835.
Harley Dixon
Long EZ N28EZ
Canandaigua, NY
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Power Schematic for Review |
At 01:20 PM 7/30/2010, you wrote:
>
>I have laid out a preliminary electrical system schematic for an all
>metal aircraft (Sonex) powered by a Jabiru 3300 engine. I would
>appreciate Bob's and other lister's comments. I have not yet done a
>complete Bus Load analysis so some of the wire sizes, fuse sizes and
>other options could change. I have not included the ignition
>systems in that they are totally independent of the aircraft electrical system.
>
>In considering the possible Z figures, I found that Z20 (small
>Jabiru) and Z21 (J3300) did not quite offer what I was hoping to
>accomplish. I believe that Z16 (Rotax 912/914) offered what I would
>like to have as a basis.
>
>Even though we have been cautioned about cherry picking the various
>Z figures, there are some features in other Z figures that I would
>like to incorporate.
"Cherry picking" refers to items that drive architecture,
and failure mode effects analysis. Functional accessories
like ov protection, lvwarn, ground power, etc. are add-on
features that can be selected from a variety of styles.
> * First, I would like to incorporate the soon to be available
> AEC9024 device for control of the master contactor, the OV
> disconnect relay and as a LV warning device. I cherry picked this
> from Z09 and Z-Laury. I might not have the pin-outs correct, but
> that can be updated easily at a later time, when the specs are
> published. I like the idea of a "Breaker-less" panel.
The the pinouts are driven by the etched circuit
board layouts. Finished that last week and got boards
in yesterday. The pinouts illustrated in Z-08
are consistent with the boards.
> * I would like to use the JD101406 Rectifier/Regulator, as in
> Z09, in place of the Jabiru supplied unit. I understand that this
> might be a more robust option.
John Deere has consistently offered a bit more
heat-sink performance on their rectifier/regulators
so your substitution is probably a good thing. Do
you know anyone else who has made this substitution
and is flying it?
> * I would like to have the Alternator OV Disconnect Relay to
> Open one of the Dynamo leads as in Z16 instead of the +B lead as in Z2
Okay
> * There are two other major options that I would like to consider:
> * BROWNOUT BATTERY WITH B/O RELAY. This as is illustrated in
> Z10-8. I am considering a MGL EFIS system. They (and others, I
> believe) offer an option to use a backup battery that is exclusive
> to powering the EFIS and its accessories. I think that a well
> designed and crafted E-Bus system makes this exclusive backup
> unnecessary and redundant. The exclusive backup battery cannot be
> kept charged unless turned "ON" during operation of the EFIS from
> the main power source. The Z-10-8 type of backup not only offers a
> seamless full voltage for ALL E-Bus items, during cranking to
> start, but adds to the alternator out E-Bus operating time
> capacity. It will also be topped off and maintained automatically
> when the main battery is connected to a remote maintainer through
> the Aux. 12V. Power plug in the panel.
Are you aware that the alternator on this engine is good
for 20A? What size battery are you planning for the
main battery? How much weight/volume are you willing
to dedicate to a brown-out mitigation system? Are you
sure that it's necessary/useful? The devices on your
e-bus may not need brownout protection if the internal
resistance of the main battery combined with inrush
characteristics of the starter don't depress the
bus enough to cause re-sets. Finally, one could always
start the engine before turning on devices that have
re-set issues . . . or just let them re-set.
You've got a LOT of electro-whizzies planned for this
project. Is this a night or ifr cross-country machine?
> * E-BUS ALTERNATE FEED RELAY. This as in Z32. In that I have
> not finalized the calculation of the E-Bus loads, this may or may
> not be needed. What is the continuous (and intermittent) E-Bus
> amperage point at which the relay should be implemented? I have
> incorporated a LED light indicator to show that the E-Bus feed is
> closed (ON) in any case.
With a 20A main alternator and a limited size
for a main battery (this isn't going to be a
C-210!!), your e-bus loads should be cultivated
down to those described in the original writings
about an e-bus. If your e-bus loads are more than
a few amps, then your demonstrated performance
is going to be disappointing.
>
>The other thing that needs to be reviewed is the use of
>FUSEABLELINKS. We have also been cautioned to not incorporate them
>accept in special considerations so please comment:
> * Fuseablelink in the alternator +B lead at the starter
> contactor as in Z16, Z18, Z20 and in the alt alternator +B lead to
> the hot side of the main battery contactor of Z8.
> * Fuseablelink in the E-Bus alternate feed path at the
> connection to the E-Bus as in Z13-8 and Z13-8 E-Bus Feeders.
> * Fuseablelink in the E-Bus alternate feed from the hot side of
> the battery contactor as in Z16 and Z18.
> * Fuseablelink at the B/O battery hot lead to the E-Bus alt.
> feed relay or switch. In this use I could not find illustration in
> the Z figures. However I think that it might be logical to assume
> that this use is OK if the use mentioned directly above from the
> hot side of the main battery is OK.
Fusible links are fine where shown in z-figures, no
where else. Further, the alternator b-lead link can be replaced
with a MAX in-line fuse holder and in the case of your
Jab3300 alternator, a 30A fuse.
>I have attached a four page illustration that shows all
>options. The first page (D) shows the inclusion of both
>options. Next (C) and (B) illustrate the two options implemented
>singly. The last page (A) includes neither option.
Suggest you get your load analysis done first
and know exactly what you CAN run in this system
and under what anticipated flight conditions. The
forms for doing a load analysis are available
at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Load_Analysis/
There are printed forms for a paper analysis
and sample Excel files for a paperless analysis.
You've spent a lot of time producing the
drawings but it's not clear that you've
sized the system and planned accessories to
the engine's alternator or to the airplane's
missions.
You've expressed some concerns for keeping an
EFIS system up and running . . . do you
anticipate deliberate IFR ops? If so, what's
your backup plan for the EFIS going south?
Needle-ball-airspeed? Are you planning LOC/GS
capability? What radios instruments are needed
to support that activity?
I can suggest that in 1000 hrs and 30 years
of flying, much of that time at night, that
I've never had or even desired the ability
to bore holes in clouds under the watchful
eyes of guys on the ground. I was ready to
take my check-ride for an instrument ticket
and the flight examiner gigged the airplane
I had rented because there was no radio
station license on board. My credit for
the written was running out in a few days
and my work schedule was going to hose a
rescheduled ride. I also considered the $time$
necessary to keep the ticket current. I decided
that the design goal was to be able to bail my
buns out of a poor visibility situation. The
investment of time, talent and resources to
be worthy of the benevolence and permission
of others to practice a good and necessary
skill did not add value to the goal.
After that I kept my skills up to my own satisfaction
knowing that should I do something stupid for
being there in the first place, the hazards
against saving the day were no worse whether or
not I had the right piece of paper in my wallet
or in the ship's documents.
The point is that your airplane's electrical
power supply, space on the panel, volume and
weight limits are a finite resource. As with
our automobiles, it's really easy to stack
lots of bells and whistles into the mix . . .
but they have their own cost of ownership
issues. My son is having a several hundred
dollar repair done to his electronically
controlled a/c in his 2000 van . . . my 1987
GMC has ON/OFF switch and some manually
positioned flapper valves that have not missed
a lick in 23 years.
Depending on how you KNOW you're going to
use the airplane, you may well find yourself
lacking some functionality because hammers
and saws were substituted with more expensive,
more complex and less reliable nail guns
and laser cutters.
Keep in mind too that this is an opportunity
to do something BETTER than what's handed to
you in a C-172 over which you have no control.
At the same time, you'll probably find that
should you need to rent a C-172 because your
airplane is down for maintenance, that you
won't be climbing into the Cessna with
trepidation growing out of some knowledge that
YOUR airplane has electrical system features
that the Cessna doesn't have.
Suggest you nail down a mission statement
for the airplane along with a load-analysis
that is serviceable with the alternator and
battery combination. Then take the Z-16
as published and nit-pick it for potential
operational failures that beg adjustment
by adding features or changes to architecture.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New Z-8 drawing |
| From: | "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
Hi Bob,
When you said
> Discussions with Jon Laury combined with conversation
> about the abortive Z-13/8 architecture some months
> ago have prompted a new Z-figure
did you mean Z-13/20 here?
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306943#306943
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New Z-8 drawing |
At 09:52 AM 7/31/2010, you wrote:
>
>Hi Bob,
>When you said
>
>
> > Discussions with Jon Laury combined with conversation
> > about the abortive Z-13/8 architecture some months
> > ago have prompted a new Z-figure
>
>
> did you mean Z-13/20 here?
yes . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> |
| Subject: | Electronics international fuel level instrument |
Hi Guys
I've obtained a EI - FL2CA fuel level gauge from a friend who is going 'all
glass' in his Rv7, however we have the QB fuel tanks for our Rv9a, the
question is: can you in any way operate this instrument which is designed
for 'capacitive' senders with the standard VANS Rv 'resistive' senders
Best regards
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Electronics international fuel level instrument |
At 05:55 AM 8/2/2010, you wrote:
>
>
>Hi Guys
>I've obtained a EI - FL2CA fuel level gauge from a friend who is
>going 'all glass' in his Rv7, however we have the QB fuel tanks for
>our Rv9a, the question is: can you in any way operate this
>instrument which is designed for 'capacitive' senders with the
>standard VANS Rv 'resistive' senders
No, they are worlds apart in technology.
You'll need to install tank transducers
matched to the instrument.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Electronics international fuel level instrument |
Hi Bob
It's what I really knew deep down: thanks for the confirmation
Best regards
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electronics international fuel level
instrument
>
>
> At 05:55 AM 8/2/2010, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>Hi Guys
>>I've obtained a EI - FL2CA fuel level gauge from a friend who is going
>>'all glass' in his Rv7, however we have the QB fuel tanks for our Rv9a,
>>the question is: can you in any way operate this instrument which is
>>designed for 'capacitive' senders with the standard VANS Rv 'resistive'
>>senders
>
> No, they are worlds apart in technology.
> You'll need to install tank transducers
> matched to the instrument.
>
>
> Bob . . .
> ////
> (o o)
> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> < show me where I'm wrong. >
> ================================
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | servo filter capacitor |
| From: | "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com> |
The plans call for a 2200fd capacitor to be connected to the positive power wire
at the autopilot servo. The servo is not electrically connected to the aircraft
frame at the servo. Instead it has a black negative power wire going back
to the instrument panel. Should the negative capacitor lead be connected to
aircraft ground at the servo or should it be connected to the black wire? Or
does not it matter?
Thanks, Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307464#307464
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: servo filter capacitor |
At 09:09 AM 8/4/2010, you wrote:
>
>The plans call for a 2200fd capacitor to be
>connected to the positive power wire at the
>autopilot servo. The servo is not electrically
>connected to the aircraft frame at the
>servo. Instead it has a black negative power
>wire going back to the instrument panel. Should
>the negative capacitor lead be connected to
>aircraft ground at the servo or should it be
>connected to the black wire? Or does not it matter?
It may not matter. I'm skeptical of
any such device hung on the outside of
a product. I had to do it once . . .
a cabin vent blower speed controller
that generated so much noise that
we had to bolt a fat electrolytic
capacitor to the outside of the housing
(UGH!). That's a goof that follows me
around and chews on my buns every time
I work in forward avionics bay of the
King Air.
Does anyone put down a reason in writing
why this capacitor is necessary? Noise
from the actuator? System noises getting
into the actuator that upset its operation?
Understanding the antagonist/victim/coupling
combination that is presumably broken by
adding this capacitor is key to wiring
it for greatest effectiveness.
Who's autopilot are you talking about?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: servo filter capacitor |
| From: | "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com> |
> Does anyone put down a reason in writing why this capacitor is necessary? Noise
from the actuator? System noises getting into the actuator that upset its operation?
No, there is no explanation. The capacitor came with the kit and is called a "filter"
and is to be installed at the servo.
> Who's autopilot are you talking about?
It is a Dynon servo connected to the FlightDEK-D180 and AP74.
Thanks for the reply,
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307586#307586
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: servo filter capacitor |
At 11:05 PM 8/4/2010, you wrote:
>
>
> > Does anyone put down a reason in writing why this capacitor is
> necessary? Noise from the actuator? System noises getting into the
> actuator that upset its operation?
>
>
>No, there is no explanation. The capacitor came with the kit and is
>called a "filter" and is to be installed at the servo.
Hmmmm . . . I would hope that their instructions
are specific as to where it grounds. Are these Dynon
FlightDEK or third party instructions? I think I
know a guy at Dynon I can ask about it.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Icom A6 Power Supply |
| From: | "checkn6" <checkn6(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Everyone,
Pardon my ignorance here but if it were not for this list and the AEC website and
manual my electrical system would probably be in shambles. But on to my question.
I fly a Challenger and use an Icom A6 handheld for my radio until I can afford
a panel mount. The instructions state that I must use the CP-20 cord @ $55 to
power it from the ships power. Seems a bit excessive to me but is there some kind
of magic in the box that I'm just not getting? The radio takes an 11V input
and I am guessing that the CP-20 has a charging system inside to recharge the
NiMh battery. My real question is can I run the radio on a 12V cord without
all the bells and whistles? I'm not trying to charge the battery in flight as
I have a spare alkaline battery pack mounted to the panel that I can clip the
radio body to while flying and un-clip when I get out. I remember years ago someone
telling me that a radio of this quality can work on a somewhat wide range
of external power as they have built in conversion, but like I said pardon my
ignorance.
Thanks
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307631#307631
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: servo filter capacitor |
| From: | "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com> |
> Hmmmm . . . I would hope that their instructions are specific as to where it
grounds. Are these Dynon FlightDEK or third party instructions? I think I know
a guy at Dynon I can ask about it.
Third party. The 2200fd capacitor came with the RV-12 autopilot kit. And yes,
the RV-12 directions say to ground the negative lead to the airframe. I questioned
that because any noise generated by the servo motor will have a longer
path through the airframe. I assume, but do not know, that the servo motor is
the antagonist. Actually there are two servo motors (pitch and roll) connected
in parallel, but there is only one capacitor. It is connected to the pitch
servo which is the one closest to the instrument panel.
It is possible that the intent of the 2,200fd capacitor is to help smooth the voltage
from the single phase Rotax dynamo. But there is already a 22,000fd capacitor
connected to the input power to the instrument panel.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307634#307634
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> |
Hi Guys
The charger for my cordless drill (12v) has expired, can I connect my
automobile charger to the battery?
Best regards: John (RV9a-wings)
________________________________________________________________________________
John,
How many cold cranking amps does your cordless drill require? Spoil
yourself - take a trip to Harbor Freight
Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN
TIPTON
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 11:21 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery charger
Hi Guys
The charger for my cordless drill (12v) has expired, can I connect my
automobile charger to the battery?
Best regards: John (RV9a-wings)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery charger |
At 10:20 AM 8/5/2010, you wrote:
>
>
>Hi Guys
>
>The charger for my cordless drill (12v) has expired, can I connect
>my automobile charger to the battery?
Cordless products using Ni-Cad or NiMh batteries
use chargers as current sources as opposed to
voltage sources. While the wall-wart that comes
with it puts out some name-plate voltage, the current
fed to the cells during charging is generally limited
by some resistor in series. The trick is to know where
the resistor was installed. If inside the drill, then
yes, you can hook the drill to 12v car battery and
recharge the cells. If it's inside the expired wall-wart,
then direct connection to the drill will probably produce
some unhappy if not spectacular results.
You can put a milliammeter in series with an experimental
hookup to see. Put a 3A fuse in series with the whole
mess just to be safe. Hook it up and see how much charging
current flows into the drill . . . if under 200 mA or so,
you're good to go. Most drills have c-cells that like to
charge at 150 mA for 10-15 hours. If the current is too
high, add resistance in series to bring it down.
I have some tools where the wall-warts have died or gone
AWOL. I charge them from my electronics bench supplies set
to run in a 150 mA constant current mode.
But as suggested, unless you really delight in solving
such problems and want to take the $time$ to understand
and implement a solution, a trip to HF is the quick-n-
dirty solution. Let us know what you discover.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Icom A6 Power Supply |
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
Chris, Look in your owners manual, I was surprised to find that my A22 which
had a simple cigarette style plug would work fine on 12 volts but the manual
had a prohibition from plugging it into a 24 volt system or it would let the
smoke out.
I bought my A22 in 1999 so perhaps Icom has come to their senses with the
A6.
I put the A22 in my trike and I power it from the 12 volt system. It works
fine. I went to the DAV with the radio and went through their box of power
supplies to find one that had a nice long cord and a plug that fits the
radio's power receptical. I didn't care about voltage or polarity, just
wanted the right plug. Bought the transformer for 25 cents, took it home and
cut off the transformer and canned it. used an ohm meter to determine which
wire went where, the center is + on the A22 and wired it into an extra fuse
slot on the trike. Works great, no escaped smoke in two years.
Icom builds good handhelds, but their accessory prices are laughable to the
point of arrogance. For my LSA I bought the cheapest Vertex handheld. It
comes with a headset adapter all that's needed is a PTT switch, which Bob
told me how to build then I found a ready made on at Mypilot for $11. I made
my own antenna and the whole package barely broke $200 for everything. It's
wired into the ship the same way as the trike (another 25 cent plug from
DAV, too) and it too works great with no smoke. The Vertex even had Li
battery pack instead of the Nicads and Nmh that Icom uses.
I don't own any stock in Vertex's parent company, I just like their radios
and especially their prices.
Rick Girard
On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 9:22 AM, checkn6 wrote:
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> Pardon my ignorance here but if it were not for this list and the AEC
> website and manual my electrical system would probably be in shambles. But
> on to my question.
>
> I fly a Challenger and use an Icom A6 handheld for my radio until I can
> afford a panel mount. The instructions state that I must use the CP-20 cord
> @ $55 to power it from the ships power. Seems a bit excessive to me but is
> there some kind of magic in the box that I'm just not getting? The radio
> takes an 11V input and I am guessing that the CP-20 has a charging system
> inside to recharge the NiMh battery. My real question is can I run the radio
> on a 12V cord without all the bells and whistles? I'm not trying to charge
> the battery in flight as I have a spare alkaline battery pack mounted to the
> panel that I can clip the radio body to while flying and un-clip when I get
> out. I remember years ago someone telling me that a radio of this quality
> can work on a somewhat wide range of external power as they have built in
> conversion, but like I said pardon my ignorance.
>
> Thanks
>
> Chris
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307631#307631
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: servo filter capacitor |
At 09:36 AM 8/5/2010, you wrote:
>
>
> > Hmmmm . . . I would hope that their
> instructions are specific as to where it
> grounds. Are these Dynon FlightDEK or third
> party instructions? I think I know a guy at Dynon I can ask about it.
>
>
>Third party. The 2200fd capacitor came with
>the RV-12 autopilot kit. And yes, the RV-12
>directions say to ground the negative lead to
>the airframe. I questioned that because any
>noise generated by the servo motor will have a
>longer path through the airframe. I assume, but
>do not know, that the servo motor is the
>antagonist. Actually there are two servo motors
>(pitch and roll) connected in parallel, but
>there is only one capacitor. It is connected to
>the pitch servo which is the one closest to the instrument panel.
>
>It is possible that the intent of the 2,200fd
>capacitor is to help smooth the voltage from the
>single phase Rotax dynamo. But there is already
>a 22,000fd capacitor connected to the input power to the instrument panel.
Yeah, hard to tell. If the servo grounds locally
to airframe, I'd put the capacitor ground there
also. The capacitor across the single phase
rectifier regulators has minimal benefit. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/SD-8_Noise_Data.pdf
While there ARE effects for adding the capacitor,
they don't reduce the ripple voltage markedly.
Nor the the battery have any real effect on
ripple voltage. This is what Mil-STD-704 tells
us to EXPECT on a DC power bus . . . the righteous
designer learns to live with it. Adding capacitors
after the fact is probably whistling in the dark.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A6 Power Supply |
At 09:22 AM 8/5/2010, you wrote:
>
>Hi Everyone,
>
>Pardon my ignorance here but if it were not for this list and the
>AEC website and manual my electrical system would probably be in
>shambles. But on to my question.
>
>I fly a Challenger and use an Icom A6 handheld for my radio until I
>can afford a panel mount. The instructions state that I must use the
>CP-20 cord @ $55 to power it from the ships power. Seems a bit
>excessive to me but is there some kind of magic in the box that I'm
>just not getting? The radio takes an 11V input and I am guessing
>that the CP-20 has a charging system inside to recharge the NiMh
>battery. My real question is can I run the radio on a 12V cord
>without all the bells and whistles? I'm not trying to charge the
>battery in flight as I have a spare alkaline battery pack mounted to
>the panel that I can clip the radio body to while flying and un-clip
>when I get out. I remember years ago someone telling me that a radio
>of this quality can work on a somewhat wide range of external power
>as they have built in conversion, but like I said pardon my ignorance.
Good question. But with an answer similar to the
recent exchange about charging batteries in cordless
drills. Without analyzing a CP-20 to deduce its
mojo, there's little that anyone can offer you
with confidence. If we had a schematic of what
goes on inside it, I could certainly offer
solid advice. Suggest you get the recommended
cable. The $time$ expended to do a work-around
may well be more costly than using the stock
cable.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Talking and wiring... Burnt Dynon Oil Pressure Sender? |
The other day I made the mistake of asking someone to help me mount my
battery and then holding a conversation along the way. We installed the
battery perfectly but it was backwards. When I flipped the master
switch, the batt wire to the master solenoid got fried. Z-13/8.
When the batt wire burnt, it melted the cover on the oil pressure sender
and presumably shorted it's circuit (I no longer get a reading on the
EFIS). At rest with the engine off, the OP should read zero. It now has
3 red dashes --- in place of the zero. Naturally both wires have been
replaced.
Question: Has anyone had experience with expired oil sender units and is
it possible to short or damage them? The unit I have came with the Dynon
D-180.
If things start to point to the sender unit, I want to overnight one to
the hangar for tomorrow.
Thanks
Glenn E. Long
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "dougshep(at)netzero.com" <dougshep(at)netzero.com> |
I'm building an RV-9A with an Eggenfellner Subaru E6 engine. I will be
mounting my batteries in the tailcone of the AC, and will have to route
the power cables (probably two #6 wire size with terminals) fwd to the f
irewall. Since I have an all metal AC, how do I terminate this large ca
ble on the firewall (aft side), with connecting cables, going fwd to the
starter and also to the instr panel? Haven't been able to find any typ
e of an insulated standoff for this. Can you recommend something?
Also, where can I get a schematic for the Wig-Wag circuit so I can inte
rface to it?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RGent1224(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Battery cables |
Check this solution out I'll be using them when the time comes
_http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Red-3-8-Stud-Type-Junction-Block-_W0QQcmdZVi
ewItemQQitemZ350377856912QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories_
(http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Red-3-8-Stud-Type-Junction-Block-_W0QQcmdZView
ItemQQitemZ350377856912QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories)
They also have black
Dick
In a message dated 8/5/2010 3:34:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
dougshep(at)netzero.com writes:
I'm building an RV-9A with an Eggenfellner Subaru E6 engine. I will be
mounting my batteries in the tailcone of the AC, and will have to route the
power cables (probably two #6 wire size with terminals) fwd to the firewall.
Since I have an all metal AC, how do I terminate this large cable on the
firewall (aft side), with connecting cables, going fwd to the starter and
also to the instr panel? Haven't been able to find any type of an insulated
standoff for this. Can you recommend something?
Also, where can I get a schematic for the Wig-Wag circuit so I can
interface to it?
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Talking and wiring... Burnt Dynon Oil Pressure |
Sender?
At 12:16 PM 8/5/2010, you wrote:
>
>The other day I made the mistake of asking someone to help me mount my
>battery and then holding a conversation along the way. We installed the
>battery perfectly but it was backwards. When I flipped the master
>switch, the batt wire to the master solenoid got fried. Z-13/8.
Bummer. I've deliberated suggesting that all battery contactors
be fabricated from 4-terminal contactors having the right
combination of diodes installed to prevent such happenings . . .
but this would add complexity to the e-bus alternate feed
architecture too.
>When the batt wire burnt, it melted the cover on the oil pressure sender
>and presumably shorted it's circuit (I no longer get a reading on the
>EFIS). At rest with the engine off, the OP should read zero. It now has
>3 red dashes --- in place of the zero. Naturally both wires have been
>replaced.
>
>Question: Has anyone had experience with expired oil sender units and is
>it possible to short or damage them? The unit I have came with the Dynon
>D-180.
Contact the guys at Dynon and explain what happened. I've
spoken with several folks there at length on various matters.
I'm betting that they'll make you a good deal on a replacement
pressure transducer.
>If things start to point to the sender unit, I want to overnight one to
>the hangar for tomorrow.
Hmmmm . . . it's 3 pm there now, suggest you get on the
phone post-haste . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tim Andres" <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Electronic ignition feed circuit. |
Bob; I'm still digestion the question of un-fused wires running more than a
few inches, so this question comes to mind. I have a rear engine/rear
battery. The mfg calls for a pull-able breaker on the panel. 3 options I
see are:
1. Run the wire from the Bat Bus forward to the C/B, then on to it's
business. Now I am open to problems with an unintentional ground and a
burning wire, but I can reset in flight in an emergency.
2. Install a 10 amp fuse at the Bus and then a 5 Amp CB in the panel. My
thought is the CB would always trip first and I can reset it, the fuse is
there to protect from a problem between the Buss and the CB. Now I have 2
fail points.
3. Use a fuse only at the Bus and no CB in the panel. Now I can't reset it
in flight.
If I understand you correctly you would say use #1 and just use good
practices. Is that correct?
This same issue comes up a few times in my project, like the nose lift for
example. The mfg wants a un-switched 10A feeder to it.
Thanks & Yes I have a copy of the Aerolectric'!
Tim Andres
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Electronic ignition feed circuit. |
At 09:11 PM 8/5/2010, you wrote:
>Bob; I'm still digestion the question of un-fused wires running more
>than a few inches, so this question comes to mind. I have a rear
>engine/rear battery. The mfg calls for a pull-able breaker on the
>panel. 3 options I see are:
You must be talking about Light Speed.
You can wire as he suggests. No doubt
many hundreds of airplanes have been wired
thusly. An accident I'm working involves
wiring that was NOT done to LS drawings . . .
but not to mine either. The airplane
suffered simultaneous loss of both ignition
systems because the folks making decisions
THOUGHT they were building in some sort of
super-redundancy.
If it were my airplane, each ignition would
be fed with a 5A fuse and 20AWG wire to a
switch on the panel. One fuse on a battery
bus, the other on the main bus.
>1. Run the wire from the Bat Bus forward to the C/B, then on to it's
>business. Now I am open to problems with an unintentional ground and
>a burning wire, but I can reset in flight in an emergency.
>2. Install a 10 amp fuse at the Bus and then a 5 Amp CB in the
>panel. My thought is the CB would always trip first and I can reset
>it, the fuse is there to protect from a problem between the Buss and
>the CB. Now I have 2 fail points.
>3. Use a fuse only at the Bus and no CB in the panel. Now I can't
>reset it in flight.
Yeah, but you have TWO of them and the engine
runs really fine on one. Likelihood of
resetting a breaker being even a choice
is low . . . likelihood of it being useful
is even lower . . . likelihood that you
pop a fuse on one ign (which means it's
dead anyhow) and then having a second
system go down.
In fact, if I were in an endurance mode
flying battery only with two ignition systems,
I'd shut one of them off.
>If I understand you correctly you would say use #1 and just use good
>practices. Is that correct?
>This same issue comes up a few times in my project, like the nose
>lift for example. The mfg wants a un-switched 10A feeder to it.
>Thanks & Yes I have a copy of the Aerolectric'!
and no doubt many airplanes have been wired
that way too.
All I can offer you is that there are "rules
of the wiring" that have been developed over
nearly a century of wiring airplanes. They
represent proven recipes for success validated
in hundreds of thousands of airplanes. There
are other recipes that will have different risks.
The risks are probably low . . . after all, how
many hours of the rest of your life to you expect
to be airborne in this machine?
So it's a toss-up . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A6 Power Supply |
At 04:38 AM 8/6/2010, you wrote:
>
>I have a A24 which i believe calls for the same $$power supply$$ as
>the A6. Mine needs to see between 9.5 and 11.7 volts at the plug to
>charge the battery AND to transmit. The A24 will still turn on,
>change channels, listen to traffic, charge the battery, etc above
>11.7 volts but it will not transmit.
Interesting data point! Thank you. This makes sense
as these tiny transceivers all have one thing in
common . . .
To get Power Output they need to have Power Input.
The best possible efficiency for the power output
stage of an AM transmitters has a practical limit
. . . where INEFFICIENCY manifests itself as heat.
When you've stuffed a multi-watt transmitter into
a envelope the size of a package of cigarets, the
designers best hopes for moving heat out of the
vulnerable circuits are severely restricted.
This bit of information suggests that external
power adapters for these radios may well contain
regulators designed to keep the radio from going
into self-protective shutdown when powered from
a DC bus supported at over 14v by an alternator.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Allen Fulmer" <afulmer(at)charter.net> |
That looks just like the one I bought from West Marine. Probably cheaper
too.
Once fat wire was connected to above "pass through terminal" at the firewall
I branched off to a four pole bus bar like this:
http://bluesea.com/category/9/35/products/2307
>From here I fed the Egg. "Master Switch" with a #10 wire, and the main fuse
block (or a Vertical Power box) with a #6 wire.
I used a #4 "fat" wire and lugs from here:
http://www.periheliondesign.com/fatwires.htm
And only one fat wire from rear mounted batteries to the firewall in my
RV7/Egg E6Ti per Bob N's Z19RB,
Then a #10 always hot wire from "Engine" battery to the Egg. "Master
switch", emergency side per (Jan Eggenfellner).
Also one #6 from rear mounted batteries ground lug all the way through the
firewall to an engine lug (per Jan).
HTH
Allen Fulmer
Alexander City, AL
N808AF reserved
RV7 w/Egg. E6Ti installed and running
3 screen GRT EFIS wired and set up
Only cowl, canopy, and fiberglass to go!
8 years and counting!
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
RGent1224(at)aol.com
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery cables
Check this solution out I'll be using them when the time comes
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Red-3-8-Stud-Type-Junction-Block-_W0QQcmdZVie
wItemQQitemZ350377856912QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
They also have black
Dick
In a message dated 8/5/2010 3:34:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
dougshep(at)netzero.com writes:
I'm building an RV-9A with an Eggenfellner Subaru E6 engine. I will be
mounting my batteries in the tailcone of the AC, and will have to route the
power cables (probably two #6 wire size with terminals) fwd to the firewall.
Since I have an all metal AC, how do I terminate this large cable on the
firewall (aft side), with connecting cables, going fwd to the starter and
also to the instr panel? Haven't been able to find any type of an insulated
standoff for this. Can you recommend something?
Also, where can I get a schematic for the Wig-Wag circuit so I can interface
to it?
===================================
List
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
===================================
ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
===================================
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "dougshep(at)netzero.com" <dougshep(at)NetZero.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A6 Power Supply |
I'm trying to adapt my ICOM A23 (NAV/COM) hand held xcvr to my panel als
o. The A23 is very similar to your A6 electrically. I ordered a BP-200
, battery eliminator (it replaces its battery) and connected it to my A6
and here is the letter I sent with the BP-200 back to W&W Manufacturing
where I purchased it:
"I received your WWE-BP200 Battery eliminator for my ICOM A23 handheld t
ransceiver. When using it by plugging it into an auto (engine was off)
cigarette lighter, the transceiver seemed to work except produced so muc
h static and noise (squeals) that it was not usable. Note that when usi
ng the transceiver in the same auto with its normal battery pack it work
ed perfectly. The transceiver uses its normal whip antenna that came wi
th it. The auto battery measured 12.7 VDC, and also the same problem oc
curred in another auto I tested it in. I checked the BP200 with a volt
meter and it produces the correct 10.0 VDC output. Apparently its power
supply is producing the noise and its coupling into the transceiver. P
erhaps its power supply is defective.Pse send me another BP200 without t
his noise problem."
Well, all I got was a refund to my credit card. The Battery eliminator
uses a buck converter that produces a 200Khz power with enough noise to
radiate into your antenna. Using 50feet of RG-58 and an external antenn
a routed the same distance, it worked pretty good. So, forget it unless
you can shield its power supply or use an outside antenna.
I've just ordered ICOM's A23 service manual, and plan to panel mount my
A23 with its battery pack using a charger/booster. The A23 can trickle
or boost charge. I've heard good things about airborne ICOM handhelds (
mine works good in flight), and panel mount NAV/COMs are $$$. I'd be ca
reful about connecting your A6 directly to aircraft power.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New Z-8 drawing |
| From: | "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
Bob,
Just to be clear, in a previous exchange you said that ALL essential engine power
should come from the Batt Bus. Does that mean redundant systems (#2pump, #2ignition,
#2EFI {switch}) also reside on the batt bus?
If the answer is yes, what is the reasoning for not having them on the main (separate)
bus?
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307798#307798
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Firewall Penetration |
Hi all,
I am about to make the firewall penetrations for my all electric RV 8. Is
there any reason that I cannot run the main #2 power wire to the starter
contactor, B lead from the standby alternator, both alternator F-leads and
the sensor wires from the CHT, EGT, oil pressure, oil temp, fuel pressure
and fuel flow all through the same penetration? I have a nice Safeair kit
with a one inch stainless pipe. They would all fit but I was wondering if
there would be any signal interference with the sensors next to the fat wires.
Regards,
Michael Wynn
RV 8 FWF
San Ramon, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Icom A6 Power Supply |
| From: | "rose9065f" <rrr.cavu(at)yahoo.com> |
I made a cable with a 10 ohm resistor in series with the 12 volt feed from the
plane to the A24. This puts a small charge into the A24 battery, but the radio
still operates from its internal battery. Works fine. !0 ohms is not too critical.
The wall charger says 200ma. Dropping 13 volts to 11.7 at 200ma is
about 6.5 ohms Bigger resistor smaller trickle charge.
Jim
--------
KF2 582
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307849#307849
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Penetration |
At 04:26 PM 8/6/2010, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>I am about to make the firewall penetrations for my all electric RV
>8. Is there any reason that I cannot run the main #2 power wire to
>the starter contactor, B lead from the standby alternator, both
>alternator F-leads and the sensor wires from the CHT, EGT, oil
>pressure, oil temp, fuel pressure and fuel flow all through the same
>penetration? I have a nice Safeair kit with a one inch stainless
>pipe. They would all fit but I was wondering if there would be any
>signal interference with the sensors next to the fat wires.
They should be fine sharing the same penetration.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New Z-8 drawing |
At 02:31 PM 8/6/2010, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>Just to be clear, in a previous exchange you said that ALL essential
>engine power should come from the Batt Bus. Does that mean redundant
>systems (#2pump, #2ignition, #2EFI {switch}) also reside on the batt bus?
One set would run from the battery bus, the other from
the main bus.
>If the answer is yes, what is the reasoning for not having them on
>the main (separate) bus?
The design goal is to be able to shut down
as much of the electrical system as possible
without killing the engine. So if you get a
severe electrical event (smoke in the cockpit)
you can turn off the battery master and alternator
switches without affecting engine ops.
So the primary engine support hardware would
run from the battery bus, secondary engine
support would power from the main bus.
This separation covers a smoke-in-the-cockpit
event without having to manage any switches
over and above the power sources.
I've discovered any really attractive
high-current diodes for aux alternator b-lead
isolation. Electrically suited components
are pretty bulky after you get the heat-sinked.
They're also more expensive than a contactor.
So your original idea for tasking a single contactor
with ground power management AND b-lead crash
safety has some warm fuzzies about it.
My grand daughter was visiting most of last
week which was a most pleasant but commanding
distraction. I'll get my head back on things
electric pretty soon.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Icom A6 Power Supply |
| From: | "rvtach" <rvtach(at)msn.com> |
rose9065f wrote:
> I made a cable with a 10 ohm resistor in series with the 12 volt feed from the
plane to the A24. This puts a small charge into the A24 battery, but the radio
still operates from its internal battery. Works fine. !0 ohms is not too
critical. The wall charger says 200ma. Dropping 13 volts to 11.7 at 200ma is
about 6.5 ohms Bigger resistor smaller trickle charge.
>
> Jim
I had forgotten I had any experience with this. When I was in charge of aircraft
parking for COPPERSTATE Fly-In we used a bunch of A-6s, which as mentioned earlier
won't transmit when it's on the charger. Who's idea was that anyway? With
heavy use the batteries died in under 2 hours and then we were going through
a set of AAs every 30 minutes. Our radio guy did something similar to what Jim
here did by soldering a bunch of diodes in series inside the AA adapter battery
pack to get the right voltage and then bringing a cable/cigarette lighter
plug out to run off my golf cart battery. I don't remember exactly what diodes
he used or how many but it worked like a charm.
If you're is interested I can find out exactly how he did this. Just have to get
out to the airport and open up his creation and see exactly what's in there.
I'll take a photo or 2 while I'm at it. I see that the AA pack is only about
15 dollars at Chief and the half dozen or so diodes would only cost a couple dollars.
Jim in Tucson
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307864#307864
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A6 Power Supply |
>The A23 can trickle or boost charge. I've heard good things about
>airborne ICOM handhelds (mine works good in flight), and panel mount
>NAV/COMs are $$$.
I've always had very good luck with Icom radio
performance (20+ years ago) but I've not acquired
any experience with newer products. If one assumes
they've maintained or refined their legacy design
and business models in a good way, the level
of customer satisfaction for performance should
still be very high.
> I'd be careful about connecting your A6 directly to aircraft power.
Agreed. But your comments about the power adapter
putting out 10v raised some new flags. What we're
needing here is an operating support power source
to augment batteries . . . not a battery charger.
The 10V value along with other comments about
an 11.7 volt transmitter shutdown suggest a
solution that keeps external power constrained
to 10-11 volts but without regard to charging
batteries which is a more demanding protocol.
Just adding a resistor in series with the power
lead is problematic . . . because the current
demands of the radio are all over the place.
Receiver quiet (squelched) is the lowest drain.
Receiver working and putting out audio power
is somewhat higher. Transmitter working is
MUCH higher.
So I think it's a pretty safe bet to design a
noise free (linear) step-down regulator set
for say 10.5 volts using an LM317 regulator
from radio shack.
The data sheet for the LM317 . . .
http://cache.national.com/ds/LM/LM117.pdf
. . . says that with
a 200 mA load at 50C case temperature on the
device, the dropout voltage (differential
between input and output where it looses
regulation) is on the order of 1.6 volts.
Emacs!
This means that a 10.5V regulator crafted
with this part would maintain regulation
performance with an input supply as low
as 10.5 + 1.6 = 12.1 volts which certainly
covers all operations with the alternator
working . . . and if the alternator is not
working, one can reasonably expect the
radio to work fine on internal batteries
for the time it takes to comfortably put
wheels on the ground.
I'm 99% sure that crafting the circuit
below will produce a power source that
will operate the radio. It may not charge
the battery . . . so use the radios normal
charger(s) to top of batteries before flight.
Emacs!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Joe Ronco" <joe(at)halzel.com> |
| Subject: | Icom A6 Power Supply |
The Batteries America CP-11L might be a good way to go for use with 12 Volt
plane power. See:
http://www.mypilotstore.com/mypilotstore/sep/3490
User reviews at bottom of page give it 4 or 5 stars.
Joe R
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Icom A6 Power Supply
The A23 can trickle or boost charge. I've heard good things about airborne
ICOM handhelds (mine works good in flight), and panel mount NAV/COMs are
$$$.
I've always had very good luck with Icom radio
performance (20+ years ago) but I've not acquired
any experience with newer products. If one assumes
they've maintained or refined their legacy design
and business models in a good way, the level
of customer satisfaction for performance should
still be very high.
I'd be careful about connecting your A6 directly to aircraft power.
Agreed. But your comments about the power adapter
putting out 10v raised some new flags. What we're
needing here is an operating support power source
to augment batteries . . . not a battery charger.
The 10V value along with other comments about
an 11.7 volt transmitter shutdown suggest a
solution that keeps external power constrained
to 10-11 volts but without regard to charging
batteries which is a more demanding protocol.
Just adding a resistor in series with the power
lead is problematic . . . because the current
demands of the radio are all over the place.
Receiver quiet (squelched) is the lowest drain.
Receiver working and putting out audio power
is somewhat higher. Transmitter working is
MUCH higher.
So I think it's a pretty safe bet to design a
noise free (linear) step-down regulator set
for say 10.5 volts using an LM317 regulator
from radio shack.
The data sheet for the LM317 . . .
http://cache.national.com/ds/LM/LM117.pdf
. . . says that with
a 200 mA load at 50C case temperature on the
device, the dropout voltage (differential
between input and output where it looses
regulation) is on the order of 1.6 volts.
Emacs!
This means that a 10.5V regulator crafted
with this part would maintain regulation
performance with an input supply as low
as 10.5 + 1.6 = 12.1 volts which certainly
covers all operations with the alternator
working . . . and if the alternator is not
working, one can reasonably expect the
radio to work fine on internal batteries
for the time it takes to comfortably put
wheels on the ground.
I'm 99% sure that crafting the circuit
below will produce a power source that
will operate the radio. It may not charge
the battery . . . so use the radios normal
charger(s) to top of batteries before flight.
Emacs!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com> |
| Subject: | Prop crack & control stick stops |
'OC' & all,
The first picture showing a crack in my prop tip (fuzzy). # 2 & 3 show
the tab with adjustable bolt for aileron stop, one on each stick. #4
shows the elevator stops mounted to the bottom of the pilot seat.
Tim
Your message is ready to be sent with the following file or link
attachments:
058
059
060
006
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Z14 regulator voltages |
| From: | "Bob Barrow" <bobbarrow10(at)hotmail.com> |
I have installed a Z14 split bus architecture with 2 B&C LR3 regulators. I have
a couple of avionics devices that can draw power from both buses. They will draw
power from whichever bus providing the greater voltage.
In order to ensure that a particular bus normally provides the power to these devices
I will presumably have to have that bus running at a slightly higher voltage
than the other. As provided by B&C the LR3 generates 14.2 volts. I presume
that I will have to set the secondary bus(non preferred current supplier)
to a lower voltage.
My question is what voltage should I set the secondary bus to: would 14.0 volts
do the trick.
My second question is how do I determine the actual voltage of the adjusted secondary
regulator without actually running the alternator (I'm probably 12 months
away from running the engine). In other words I know how to make the adjustment
but I'm not sure how to determine if the voltage adjustment is accurate.
Regards Bob Barrow
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307900#307900
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Firewall Prnetration Question |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Aeroelectric Listers,
My vision for firewall penetrations includes the following: Let's envision a channel
cut into the bottom of the airplane from under the firewall to as far back
as needed. Sort of like the transmission and drive-shaft tunnel in an automobile.
I would put into it fuel lines, battery lines from rear-mounted battery to front-mounted
starter. etc.
How does this look as far as the FAA firewall regs? What problems am I not seeing?
Has this been done in other airplanes?
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307914#307914
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Icom A6 Power Supply |
| From: | "rose9065f" <rrr.cavu(at)yahoo.com> |
" because the current
demands of the radio are all over the place."
Doesn't matter, the radio is running off its internal battery. The series resistor
is trickle charging.
Simpler is better.
Jim
--------
KF2 582
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307919#307919
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Prnetration Question |
I cant speak to the regs but I personally would want some isolation between
the =0Abattery cables and the fuel lines. I'm sure you thought of that alr
eady.=0ATim Andres=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: E
ric M. Jones =0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com=0A
Sent: Sun, August 8, 2010 7:07:51 AM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: Firewall
. Jones" =0A=0AAeroelectric Listers,=0A=0AMy vision fo
r firewall penetrations includes the following: Let's envision a =0Achannel
cut into the bottom of the airplane from under the firewall to as far =0Ab
ack as needed. Sort of like the transmission and drive-shaft tunnel in an
=0Aautomobile.=0A=0AI would put into it fuel lines, battery lines from rear
-mounted battery to =0Afront-mounted starter. etc. =0A=0A=0AHow does this l
ook as far as the FAA firewall regs? What problems am I not =0Aseeing? Has
this been done in other airplanes?=0A=0A--------=0AEric M. Jones=0Awww.Peri
helionDesign.com=0A113 Brentwood Drive=0ASouthbridge, MA 01550=0A(508) 764-
2072=0Aemjones(at)charter.net=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0A
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307914#307914=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
===================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RGent1224(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Prnetration Question |
When in doubt always check 43.13 That's your bible in aircraft building &
maintance
Just my $0.02 worth
Dick
In a message dated 8/8/2010 9:39:08 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net writes:
I cant speak to the regs but I personally would want some isolation
between the battery cables and the fuel lines. I'm sure you thought of that
already.
Tim Andres
____________________________________
From: Eric M. Jones <emjones(at)charter.net>
Sent: Sun, August 8, 2010 7:07:51 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Firewall Prnetration Question
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones"
<_emjones(at)charter.net_ (mailto:emjones(at)charter.net) >
Aeroelectric Listers,
My vision for firewall penetrations includes the following: Let's envision
a channel cut into the bottom of the airplane from under the firewall to
as far back as needed. Sort of like the transmission and drive-shaft tunnel
in an automobile.
I would put into it fuel lines, battery lines from rear-mounted battery to
front-mounted starter. etc.
How does this look as far as the FAA firewall regs? What problems am I not
seeing? Has this been done in other airplanes?
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
_emjones(at)charter.net_ (mailto:emjones(at)charter.net)
Read this topic online here:
_http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" target=_blforums.matronics.com/"
target=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com_
(http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307914#307914)
_ -Matt Drallntribution" ======
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Prnetration Question |
> My vision for firewall penetrations includes the following: Let's envision
> a channel cut into the bottom of the airplane from under the firewall to
> as far back as needed. Sort of like the transmission and drive-shaft
> tunnel in an automobile.
>
> I would put into it fuel lines, battery lines from rear-mounted battery to
> front-mounted starter. etc.
>
> How does this look as far as the FAA firewall regs? What problems am I not
> seeing? Has this been done in other airplanes?
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
Eric,
Please elaborate on how this would be done and what are the advantages.
Remember that fuel lines will come through the cockpit fuel
selector. The bus power fat wire, usually pulled from hot side of starter
relay, also needs to go to cockpit. I have a rear mounted
battery.
Roger
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Prnetration Question |
| From: | "rckol" <rckol(at)kaehlers.com> |
Eric,
Take a look at this thread to see what can go wrong:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=57856
--------
rck
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307927#307927
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Prnetration Question |
At 09:37 AM 8/8/2010, you wrote:
>I cant speak to the regs but I personally would want some isolation
>between the battery cables and the fuel lines. I'm sure you thought
>of that already.
>Tim Andres
Consider the ordinary shotgun shell. The POTENTIAL
for a great release of energy is designed into
the device. Yet when events necessary to set
of that release are artfully positioned and
contained, the device offers very low risk
until it's loaded for use. Then the risks
change markedly but can still be very low if
actions are considered and responsible.
Liquid lines and wiring of all types can share the
same space. What is the likelihood that a contiguous
metal line carrying liquid is going to leak simultaneously
with compromise of the insulation on a wire thus giving
rise to an extra-hazardous condition?
At the same time, you don't just stuff those items
into shared spaces without regard to craftsmanship
and common sense for support such that neither wire
nor liquid line is being abraded by vibration while
in contact with some antagonist.
Considered and responsible actions keep your
electrons and gasoline separated just as the
same actions keep folks out of your prop and
airspeeds are maintained in the window on final.
There are no specific regs I'm aware of that
speak to co-mingling of potential hazards.
Take a peek in the tail of a Beechjet and you
find all manner of electrical, liquid, controls,
accessories, batteries, etc sharing some VERY
tightly packed spaces.
At the same time there are "rules of thumb"
for support and minimum separations but those
practices are often call for separations if
less than one inch.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Prnetration Question |
At 09:59 AM 8/8/2010, you wrote:
>When in doubt always check 43.13 That's your bible in aircraft
>building & maintance
>Just my $0.02 worth
Sorta . . . 43-13 does indeed offer a lot of information
based on practical experience. I.e, recipes for success.
But the electrical section is rife with incorrect if not silly
assertions. I suspect other areas are equally plagued
with marginal editing. I think I wrote about EAA contributions to
the editing of revision B some years ago.
It was pretty bad before EAA folks provided input
and it got better afterward . . . but it's certainly
not the class of document one would want to consider
as the final word on any material or process, i.e.
a "bible'.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Prnetration Question |
At 10:38 AM 8/8/2010, you wrote:
Eric,
Take a look at this thread to see what can go wrong:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=57856
It's an important discussion and I recommend that
everyone take advantage of what's offered. But keep
in mind that root cause that triggered the discussion
probably had nothing to do with WHERE things
were located in the airplane so much as HOW.
The idea that it's okay to have sloppy or ill-considered
installation of critical hardware as long as you don't
place them next to each other is faulty.
Can you imagine yourself flying along getting
a whiff of smoke or the smell of fuel and then
reassuring yourself, "No sweat, I've got things
properly separated."
The vast majority of unhappy days in the cockpit
are generated by combinations of failure in
craftsmanship, selection of materials or failure
to respect operating limits of machine and/or pilot.
Please do study, evaluate and understand factual
details gleaned from this or any other event. But
be equally studious and cautious of assertions like,
"do it this way and THAT will never happen."
Lack of understanding and attention to detail
can wipe out the reduction of risk offered by
anyone's assertions no matter what their title
is.
Does anyone have date/place info on this
RV-10 event?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z14 regulator voltages |
At 06:26 AM 8/8/2010, you wrote:
I have installed a Z14 split bus architecture with 2 B&C LR3
regulators. I have a couple of avionics devices that can draw power
from both buses. They will draw power from whichever bus providing
the greater voltage.
In order to ensure that a particular bus normally provides the power
to these devices I will presumably have to have that bus running at a
slightly higher voltage than the other. As provided by B&C the LR3
generates 14.2 volts. I presume that I will have to set the secondary
bus(non preferred current supplier) to a lower voltage.
My question is what voltage should I set the secondary bus to: would
14.0 volts do the trick.
Why are you doing this? The whole idea behind
Z-14 was to cover any single point of failure
with a robust plan-b. What kind of event do you
anticipate that takes down an entire bus structure
such that "dual sources" for some appliances is
called for? The whole architecture of Z-14 is already
set up to offer 4 sources of power for everything
in the airplane no matter what bus the device is
fed from.
My second question is how do I determine the actual voltage of the
adjusted secondary regulator without actually running the alternator
(I'm probably 12 months away from running the engine). In other words
I know how to make the adjustment but I'm not sure how to determine
if the voltage adjustment is accurate.
You can't. All operating adjustments are made
with the alternator turning and anticipated
loads turned on.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Danny <dan42101(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Prnetration Question |
I think this is it...
http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=62727
- DjD
--- On Sun, 8/8/10, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall Prnetration Question
Date: Sunday, August 8, 2010, 11:43 AM
s.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
At 10:38 AM 8/8/2010, you wrote:
Eric,
Take a look at this thread to see what can go wrong:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=57856
- It's an important discussion and I recommend that
- everyone take advantage of what's offered. But keep
- in mind that root cause that triggered the discussion
- probably had nothing to do with WHERE things
- were located in the airplane so much as HOW.
- The idea that it's okay to have sloppy or ill-considered
- installation of critical hardware as long as you don't
- place them next to each other is faulty.
- Can you imagine yourself flying along getting
- a whiff of smoke or the smell of fuel and then
- reassuring yourself, "No sweat, I've got things
- properly separated."
- The vast majority of unhappy days in the cockpit
- are generated by combinations of failure in
- craftsmanship, selection of materials or failure
- to respect operating limits of machine and/or pilot.
- Please do study, evaluate and understand factual
- details gleaned from this or any other event. But
- be equally studious and cautious of assertions like,
- "do it this way and THAT will never happen."
- Lack of understanding and attention to detail
- can wipe out the reduction of risk offered by
- anyone's assertions no matter what their title
- is.
- Does anyone have date/place info on this
- RV-10 event?
- Bob . . .
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Danny <dan42101(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Prnetration Question |
NTSB preliminary:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 100509X25424&key=1
- DjD
--- On Sun, 8/8/10, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall Prnetration Question
Date: Sunday, August 8, 2010, 11:43 AM
s.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
At 10:38 AM 8/8/2010, you wrote:
Eric,
Take a look at this thread to see what can go wrong:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=57856
- It's an important discussion and I recommend that
- everyone take advantage of what's offered. But keep
- in mind that root cause that triggered the discussion
- probably had nothing to do with WHERE things
- were located in the airplane so much as HOW.
- The idea that it's okay to have sloppy or ill-considered
- installation of critical hardware as long as you don't
- place them next to each other is faulty.
- Can you imagine yourself flying along getting
- a whiff of smoke or the smell of fuel and then
- reassuring yourself, "No sweat, I've got things
- properly separated."
- The vast majority of unhappy days in the cockpit
- are generated by combinations of failure in
- craftsmanship, selection of materials or failure
- to respect operating limits of machine and/or pilot.
- Please do study, evaluate and understand factual
- details gleaned from this or any other event. But
- be equally studious and cautious of assertions like,
- "do it this way and THAT will never happen."
- Lack of understanding and attention to detail
- can wipe out the reduction of risk offered by
- anyone's assertions no matter what their title
- is.
- Does anyone have date/place info on this
- RV-10 event?
- Bob . . .
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Leffler" <rv(at)thelefflers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Prnetration Question |
NTSB Identification: ERA10LA256
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Friday, May 07, 2010 in Ridgeland, SC
Aircraft: SWEZEY T/MOLNAR D VANS RV-10, registration: N110TD
Injuries: 2 Serious
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors.
Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been
completed.
On May 7, 2010, about 1511 eastern daylight time, an experimental
amateur-built Vans RV-10, N110TD, was destroyed during an explosion after
landing at Ridgeland Airport (3J1), Ridgeland, South Carolina. The
certificated private pilot and passenger were seriously injured. Visual
meteorological conditions prevailed, and no flight plan was filed for the
personal flight, which was conducted under the provisions of Title 14 Code
of Federal Regulations Part 91.
According to the pilot, earlier in the day he fueled the airplane with
automotive fuel which contained 10 percent alcohol, flew to Athens/Ben Epps
Airport (AHN), Athens, GA, picked up his passenger and then departed from
AHN about 1400. The flight was flown at an altitude of 9,500 feet above mean
sea level and everything "seemed normal." While the airplane was on short
final, "about 200 feet from the runway," he had a "brief whiff" of an odor
similar to "a gas smell." Upon landing the passenger asked if they should
open the door and the pilot stated "wait [un]til we clear the runway." The
airplane back taxied on the runway a short distance and exited the runway on
the taxiway adjacent to the ramp area. As the airplane exited the runway an
explosion caused the windows and door to be blown out. He stated that it was
similar to a "vapor fire" in that there was an intense flash of heat and
fire; however, it did not last long. The occupants exited the airplane. The
pilot returned to the airplane, utilized the on board hand held fire
extinguisher, and extinguished the fire on the floor of the cabin. As he was
walking away from the airplane towards his passenger, the airplane
"exploded" a second time and was engulfed in flames within moments. The
pilot normally "raises the flaps after clearing the runway;" however, could
not recall if he had raised the flaps just prior to the first explosion.
According to the co-owner of the airplane it had been inspected on January
2, 2010 and the "tunnel" for the fuel line was inspected and free of debris.
He stated that normally they use "93 octane auto fuel;" however, they can
use 100 LL aviation fuel. He further stated that he had flown the airplane
about 2 or 3 weeks prior and did not detect any odors. Examination of the
airplane by Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) aviation safety inspectors
revealed that the airplane was completely consumed by fire. Only a small
portion of the tail section, and the engine area forward of the firewall had
not been consumed by fire.
The pilot held a private pilot certificate with a rating for airplane
single-engine land and a repair man experimental aircraft builder
certificate with inspection certificate for the accident airplane. The
pilot's most recent FAA third-class medical certificate was issued in April
2009. During a phone interview with the NTSB investigator in charge the
pilot reported approximately 300 total hours of flight experience and
approximately 135 total hours of flight experience in the accident airplane.
He further reported that his logbook was in the airplane at the time of the
accident. According to FAA records, the airplane was manufactured and
issued a special airworthiness certificate in 2008. The airplane was
equipped with a Chevrolet 2006 LS-2 engine and a Vesta 3B78 propeller. The
pilot reported to the NTSB that during the accident flight the airplane had
just gone over 150 total hours time in service.
The 1456 recorded weather at Beaufort Marine Corp Air Station (NBC),
Beaufort, South Carolina located 14 nautical miles to the east of the
accident location included winds from 140 degrees at 5 knots, visibility 7
miles, few clouds at 6,000 feet above ground level, temperature 32 degrees
C, dew point 16 degrees C, and the altimeter setting was 29.98 inches of
mercury.
-----Original Message-----
Does anyone have date/place info on this
RV-10 event?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David LLoyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A6 Power Supply |
Jim,
There maybe a small flaw in your "10 ohm" conclusion.
As the A24 battery charges using your method and the voltage rises in the
battery, the current will taper off. So far, so good. However, it will go
into a mode of such low current that the 10 ohm resister becomes nearly
invisible. This then, will allow the A24 battery set to eventually rise to
the full level of the voltage source....13+ volts.
Maybe this is Ok, most cases it is not. If the radio is used for just a
short time during flying and then, disconnected from the 12+ source, most
likely this will stop any overcharging effect. If left connected to the
source voltage, then the A24 battery will eventually reach that value also,
which could be damaging.....
...2 cents... worth.
David
_________________________________________________________
----- Original Message -----
From: "rose9065f" <rrr.cavu(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 6:57 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Icom A6 Power Supply
>
> I made a cable with a 10 ohm resistor in series with the 12 volt feed from
> the plane to the A24. This puts a small charge into the A24 battery, but
> the radio still operates from its internal battery. Works fine. !0 ohms
> is not too critical. The wall charger says 200ma. Dropping 13 volts to
> 11.7 at 200ma is about 6.5 ohms Bigger resistor smaller trickle charge.
>
> Jim
>
> --------
> KF2 582
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307849#307849
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Prnetration Question |
Good Afternoon Eric,
Seems to me I remember 'Lectric Bob recommending something similar many
moons ago. As I recall, he recommended a thin wall copper tubing with all
those wires inside it and using the copper tube as the ground. Don't think he
recommended fuel lines be included though!
Anyone else remember that idea!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 8/8/2010 9:10:24 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
emjones(at)charter.net writes:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones"
Aeroelectric Listers,
My vision for firewall penetrations includes the following: Let's envision
a channel cut into the bottom of the airplane from under the firewall to
as far back as needed. Sort of like the transmission and drive-shaft tunnel
in an automobile.
I would put into it fuel lines, battery lines from rear-mounted battery to
front-mounted starter. etc.
How does this look as far as the FAA firewall regs? What problems am I not
seeing? Has this been done in other airplanes?
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307914#307914
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New Z-8 drawing |
| From: | "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
Bob,
Per your last post, re your grand daughter
> The design goal is to be able to shut down
> as much of the electrical system as possible
> without killing the engine.
Sometimes I feel this is applicable to my nephews. :D
> So your original idea for tasking a single contactor
> with ground power management AND b-lead crash
> safety has some warm fuzzies about it.
There are two concerns here with my set-up. See attachment
1.My ground power jack positve lead to the contactor is about 30". When the SB
alternator is on line the GPJ lead is hot to the battery through a 40a MANL .
I reasoned that worst case, like a shorted diode plate in the alt, the MANL would
keep things from getting out of hand should the 4AWG GPJ lead be breached
by anything, that I don't like to think about, during inflight SB alt ops.
2. To control the GPJ/SB alt contactor by the SB Alt switch, without having to
remember to close the GPJ contactor, I have two parallel switch legs from the
neg side of the contactor coil to ground. One for
the GPJ per the Z figure and one for a leg of the DPDT switch that has 9024 control
of the SB alt.on the other leg.
Other than inadvertently closing the GPJ/SB alt contactor by the GP switch and
putting both alts online at once (are there bad things that happen??), I can't
see any problems with doing this. But when asking a system to do double duty,
I'd like some other eyes to have a look for gotchas.
And speaking of double duty, could the 9024 Ovm on the contactor also dispense
with the need for the (9005 LVM) on the Batt bus?
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307962#307962
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/z8_w_sb_alt_gpj_conceptual__462.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Icom A6 Power Supply |
At 12:37 PM 8/8/2010, you wrote:
>
>Jim,
>There maybe a small flaw in your "10 ohm" conclusion.
>As the A24 battery charges using your method and the voltage rises
>in the battery, the current will taper off. So far, so
>good. However, it will go into a mode of such low current that the
>10 ohm resister becomes nearly invisible. This then, will allow the
>A24 battery set to eventually rise to the full level of the voltage
>source....13+ volts.
>
>Maybe this is Ok, most cases it is not. If the radio is used for
>just a short time during flying and then, disconnected from the 12+
>source, most likely this will stop any overcharging effect. If left
>connected to the source voltage, then the A24 battery will
>eventually reach that value also, which could be damaging.....
>...2 cents... worth.
>David
Excellent observation Dave. An alternative solution
was proposed wherein a series of diodes were
placed in series with the supply line. Each
diode contributes its own forward conduction
drop on the order of .6 volts per diode. This
approach simply tosses off a relatively fixed
amount of voltage.
The problem with both of these configurations
is that the output voltage to the radio is
not very stable for all conditions. This
is why most designers will include some sort
of active regulation in their external power
adapters.
The switchmode device that started this
thread is the most efficient and can be quite
small for it's capabilities. But these
necessarily include POWER oscillators which
can and do behave like little transmitters.
The minimum-risk approach for the electronic
handy-man is some form of linear regulator . . .
which demands consideration for "head-room"
or "drop-out" voltage. This is a characteristic
of all step-down regulators that defines
how well it performs as the input voltage
falls toward the same value as the output
voltage.
The diagram I posted yesterday promises
good output regulation with an input as
low as 1.6 volts above output. There
are specialty regulators that offer lower
dropout voltage but as long as we're not
attempting to charge batteries or get
rated performance with a dead alternator,
then the diagram posted offers good value.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Prnetration Question |
At 12:15 PM 8/8/2010, you wrote:
Examination of the airplane by Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)
aviation safety inspectors revealed that the airplane was completely
consumed by fire. Only a small portion of the tail section, and the
engine area forward of the firewall had not been consumed by fire.
Thanks for tracking this down Bob . . .
Obviously, there will be no autopsy on the airplane.
I hope the occupants are well recovered.
A high energy explosion like this suggests
a significant volume of relatively gas-tight
space "stoked" with fuel vapor and
ignited at or near stoichiometric ratio
for ideal combustion. Given the time at
which the explosion occurred, the flap
motor is a high-probability as ignition
source. Identification of the leak is
going to be anyone's guess.
I've read reports where fuel or other fluids
were observed to be dripping from an airplane
were the leak was some distance away and the
fluid simply followed the inside of the skin.
It's inarguable that there was a leak and
equally inarguable that there was an ignition
source. But until further data becomes available,
using this incident as a foundation for discussion
of best practices would be rather unproductive.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve and Darlene" <stuffit(at)dishmail.net> |
| Subject: | Newbie needs electric help |
I have an Infinity Commander Powered Parachute with a Rotax 582 engine
and a Grand Rapids EIS Model 2000G. I have NO experience with this type
of electrical system (I know some house wiring). My question is I would
like to add a 12v (cigarette) type receptacle to power my GPS, Radio,
Comtronics Dual Com etc. Michael Huffman recommended your book- Version
12? Would this be basic enough to take me through the steps? THANKS in
Advance
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Manfred Loos <manfredloos(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Mike Jack wiring |
I have a question about a symbol in the wiring diagram. It's a circle
with a terminal connector coming from the Mike common terminal and
it's around the mike ring terminal wire. Does this mean I have to
connect the common terminal wire to the shielding of the ring wire?
Thanks so much.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Mike Jack wiring |
At 10:44 PM 8/8/2010, you wrote:
>
>I have a question about a symbol in the wiring diagram. It's a circle
>with a terminal connector coming from the Mike common terminal and
>it's around the mike ring terminal wire. Does this mean I have to
>connect the common terminal wire to the shielding of the ring wire?
Yes.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Newbie needs electric help |
At 10:39 PM 8/8/2010, you wrote:
>I have an Infinity Commander Powered Parachute with a Rotax 582
>engine and a Grand Rapids EIS Model 2000G. I have NO experience with
>this type of electrical system (I know some house wiring). My
>question is I would like to add a 12v (cigarette) type receptacle to
>power my GPS, Radio, Comtronics Dual Com etc. Michael Huffman
>recommended your book- Version 12? Would this be basic enough to
>take me through the steps? THANKS in Advance
I don't think you need the book for this task . . .
If you have a cigar lighter connector in hand,
just hook it to your battery. Shell of the
connector goes to battery (-), center terminal
of the connector goes to battery (+).
Install a 3A fuse in the (+) lead right at the
battery. 20AWG wire would be fine.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Prnetration Question |
At 02:20 PM 8/8/2010, you wrote:
>Good Afternoon Eric,
>
>Seems to me I remember 'Lectric Bob recommending something similar
>many moons ago. As I recall, he recommended a thin wall copper
>tubing with all those wires inside it and using the copper tube as
>the ground. Don't think he recommended fuel lines be included though!
>
>Anyone else remember that idea!
Sure. The first few of the Rutan pushers I was
involved with experimented with a copper tube
conduit and ground system that ran from nose mounted battery
to the fire wall.
Emacs!
There were a few airplanes built this way but it proved to
be a lot of work with little benefit. I took the suggestion
out of later revisions to the 'Connection.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Newbie needs electric help |
| From: | "checkn6" <checkn6(at)yahoo.com> |
I agree with Bob that this is an easy task, however I strongly recommend that you
invest in the book and do research on the website just to get a good understanding
of the electrical system in your machine and how it all ties together.
I'm certainly no expert but I can't tell you how many times I have shaken my
head at those with "0" understanding of even the basics. "Gee! Why can't anyone
hear me on my radio?" "Gee! my "X" fuse keeps blowing out but I keep putting
in a bigger one and it will stop blowing eventually"
Ignorance is no excuse when it comes to flying so know your bird inside and out,
it may just save your bacon some day. You don't have to be an electrical engineer
but is sure is comforting to understand the basics at the very least. And
one other important point is that by purchasing the book you also support Bob
and his efforts to keep us all educated and safe. I know he gives a lot of his
time freely but I like to help those that help me.
Just my two pennies
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308030#308030
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New Z-8 drawing |
>1.My ground power jack positve lead to the contactor is about 30".
>When the SB alternator is on line the GPJ lead is hot to the battery
>through a 40a MANL.
The ground power lead can't go through the MANL40.
You can't crank an engine through that small a fuse.
This lead is in the same class as a "FAT WIRE" that
feeds battery/cranking circuits and does not give
rise to a lot of risk that cannot be managed by shutting
off the crew controlled power switches.
>2. To control the GPJ/SB alt contactor by the SB Alt switch, without
>having to remember to close the GPJ contactor, I have two parallel
>switch legs from the neg side of the contactor coil to ground. One for
>the GPJ per the Z figure and one for a leg of the DPDT switch that
>has 9024 control of the SB alt.on the other leg.
>Other than inadvertently closing the GPJ/SB alt contactor by the GP
>switch and putting both alts online at once (are there bad things
>that happen??), I can't see any problems with doing this. But when
>asking a system to do double duty, I'd like some other eyes to have
>a look for gotchas.
I'm praying over this a bit. What's your s/b
alternator/regulator combination again?
>And speaking of double duty, could the 9024 Ovm on the contactor
>also dispense with the need for the (9005 LVM) on the Batt bus?
Yes, or better yet, the 9011 dual LV monitor
can watch both the battery and main busses
and perhaps handle s/b alt OV too.
Still sifting the marbles . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David LLoyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery tender |
Bill,
The BT is mass produced in a foreign land like everything else this
country now uses.
Inside the box are two adjustable mini-pots. They were obviously set
wrong as the float voltage should be about 13.1 to 13.3 volts. If you
are handy you can change the float voltage pot. It is silicone'd to
hold its setting so a little exacto knifing has to be done to get the
pot to move. The pot change needed is "tiny" so if opened, go in baby
sets and always do the experiment with a battery connected to the
outputs and allow an hour or more for the new setting to stabilize.
Otherwise....just get another unit and test it thoroughly when opened so
you can take it back if the settings are wrong. Be sure to use a good
volt meter.
David
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Hibbing
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 9:26 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery tender
I've got a BatteryTender Plus that has a float voltage of 12.7 volts.
This is on both a new battery and the one that is being replaced. Is it
time for a new Batterytender?
Bill
Glasair SIIS-FT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery tender |
Thanks David,
I took Lectric Bob's advice and bought a Schumacher at WallyWorld for
about $20 or so. But I still have the unit in question so I'm going to
play around with it and see what I can do...when it cools off a bit here
in Memphis.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: David LLoyd
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery tender
Bill,
The BT is mass produced in a foreign land like everything else this
country now uses.
Inside the box are two adjustable mini-pots. They were obviously set
wrong as the float voltage should be about 13.1 to 13.3 volts. If you
are handy you can change the float voltage pot. It is silicone'd to
hold its setting so a little exacto knifing has to be done to get the
pot to move. The pot change needed is "tiny" so if opened, go in baby
sets and always do the experiment with a battery connected to the
outputs and allow an hour or more for the new setting to stabilize.
Otherwise....just get another unit and test it thoroughly when opened
so you can take it back if the settings are wrong. Be sure to use a
good volt meter.
David
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Hibbing
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 9:26 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery tender
I've got a BatteryTender Plus that has a float voltage of 12.7
volts. This is on both a new battery and the one that is being
replaced. Is it time for a new Batterytender?
Bill
Glasair SIIS-FT
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
08/09/10 13:35:00
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z14 regulator voltages |
| From: | "Bob Barrow" <bobbarrow10(at)hotmail.com> |
Yep, I take your point Bob. However the engine management system on my EFIS of
choice will only provide me with a voltage reading on both buses if I actually
source power from both buses via a primary and secondary power input. And I really
want a voltage reading for both buses.
My ignorance was in thinking that the EFIS would source power from the bus of higher
voltage...and that it would oscillate constantly between the two buses if
they had similar voltages. But the EFIS manufacturer now advises me that this
is not how it works.
In fact the EFIS always draws power from the primary bus, and only switches to
the secondary bus if the voltage on the primary bus drops below approx 8 volts.
Of course having a seamless transition to the secondary bus in the event of a catastrophic
failure of the primary bus ensures that there is no reboot and therefore
no loss of potentially crucial flight information.
Six years of building and I'm still learning something new virtually every day.
It's great. And the "Connection" is the most fabulous of resources.
Cheers Bob Barrow
My question is what voltage should I set the secondary bus to: would
14.0 volts do the trick.
Why are you doing this? The whole idea behind
Z-14 was to cover any single point of failure
with a robust plan-b. What kind of event do you
anticipate that takes down an entire bus structure
such that "dual sources" for some appliances is
called for? The whole architecture of Z-14 is already
set up to offer 4 sources of power for everything
in the airplane no matter what bus the device is
fed from.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308167#308167
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gordon Smith" <gordonrsmith921(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Was-Power Schematic for Review-now-JD AM101406 |
I would like to answer Bob N.'s points and questions from July 30, 2010, in
parts. This is about the John Deere Rectifier/Regulator AM101406
I would like to use the JD101406 Rectifier/Regulator, as in Z09,in place of
the Jabiru supplied unit. I understand that this might be a more robust
option.
John Deere has consistently offered a bit more
heat-sink performance on their rectifier/regulators
so your substitution is probably a good thing. Do
you know anyone else who has made this substitution
and is flying it?
No.
I had thought that I had read that Bob had recommended this. With more
research, I found 21 posts about AM101406 going back to 2001. I find that
Bob has said such things as "consider" and "a possible solution", etc.
However the following items influenced my decision to plan on using the JD
R/R unit:
>From Matronics:
Here in Australia a lot of people have ditched the std Kabota
tractor Regulator supplied with the Jab engine as they only tend to last 6
months .( although some have lasted years). if you have any elec problem's,
the first step is to chuck the old reg and buy another one and also carry a
spare on fly aways. Or use a Powermate or some other product that meets
your needs
Consider one of the John Deere tractor regulators
like the AM101406. These are heavy duty critters with
hefty heat sinks.
I certainly did not want to think about having to carry a spare R/R when
going cross country.
Also from Matronics:
http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair/dynamo.html
This person reports 800 no problem hours using the JD R/R however it is with
a JD alternator. Following is a quote from the website:
OK, so then I dropped by the John Deere dealer and asked the guy at the
counter how many of those he sold...I asked about the regulators and he said
"the only call I have for those is from these guys that are putting them on
airplanes".
Also Bob's Z09 shows the JD R/R (but again coupled to a JD alternator in a
Corvair conversion).
With additional research, I decided that I liked the idea of using the JD
unit especially if it is designed for use at 35 amps (the Jab alternator is
only 20 Amps). Also if the Jab supplied Kabota R/R is fragile as indicated,
I would like to use something more robust.
My research also revealed that JD may not continue to be supplying the same
R/R as discussed here. See my posting of June 24 2010. It also appears
that different manufacturers might build their R/R in the same OEM heat
sink. The Kabota looks like it is built in the same heat sink as the JD.
And some are built in heat sinks with almost no cooling fin area.
Gordon Smith
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z14 regulator voltages |
At 03:23 AM 8/10/2010, you wrote:
>
>
>Yep, I take your point Bob. However the engine management system on
>my EFIS of choice will only provide me with a voltage reading on
>both buses if I actually source power from both buses via a primary
>and secondary power input. And I really want a voltage reading for both buses.
These are independent electrical systems and
would normally be fitted with separate voltmeters.
They certainly need to be fitted with their
own active notification of low voltage.
>My ignorance was in thinking that the EFIS would source power from
>the bus of higher voltage...and that it would oscillate constantly
>between the two buses if they had similar voltages. But the EFIS
>manufacturer now advises me that this is not how it works.
>
>In fact the EFIS always draws power from the primary bus, and only
>switches to the secondary bus if the voltage on the primary bus
>drops below approx 8 volts.
>
>Of course having a seamless transition to the secondary bus in the
>event of a catastrophic failure of the primary bus ensures that
>there is no reboot and therefore no loss of potentially crucial
>flight information.
We've had a lot of builders investing intellectual
and emotional capital in devising golden power sources
for devices that are not themselves golden. Failure
TOLERANT design assumes that EVERY installed item
is subject to failure from defect, wear-out or
improper installation. The elegant design uses
the minimum of components and operating procedures
to detect and react to any single failure for
any reason.
With a cross-feed contactor closed, All the busses
in Z-14 enjoy (count 'em) FOUR separate sources
of electrical energy. Detecting and reacting to loss
of an alternator requires nothing more than active
notification of low voltage for each bus. All contactors
are pre-flight tested and the cross feed contactor
is normally left off in flight. The layers of capability
to react to a failure in this system are many and
robust.
Catastrophic failures don't happen. Some single
component fails which MIGHT produce a reduced bus
voltage . . . but doesn't take it to zero. Do
you plan to spend a lot of time boring pathways
through clouds? If your EFIS suffers its own failure,
what is your plan for dealing with it? It is many
times more likely that your EFIS wanders off into
the weeds than it is to loose power.
We'll have several options available for monitoring
the health of a multi-source electrical system.
One interesting device is the 9011 multi-channel
monitor. Two such devices installed on Z-14 would
provide real time monitoring of both alternators and
battery contactors.
>Six years of building and I'm still learning something new virtually
>every day. It's great. And the "Connection" is the most fabulous of resources.
I'm pleased that you find the work useful. It's
been a great project for me in that much of
what I've been able to share with the OBAM
aircraft community is not understood/practiced
by segments of the TC aircraft community.
Attempts to help them understand and react to
this condition have thus far been un-successful.
They don't know what they don't know and
cannot appreciate the increased risks, costs of
certification, manufacturing and ownership that
accompanies such ignorance.
You folks are building some of the most utilitarian,
low cost and lowest risk airplanes in the world.
I am pleased to be a participant in that endeavor.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Electrically-Dependent Dual Battery, Single Alternator |
Syst
| From: | "creightonious" <crouton(at)well.com> |
I've posted previously about this and some conceptual progress has been made.
The system is based upon Z-19. It differs principally in that it incorporates
two independent, stand-alone EFI systems. There is no commonality beyond the
tank selector and neither is a back-up, rather I conceive of them as a Monday
and a Tuesday system. Only one system can be used at a time and each is used
on alternate flights.
The EFI system draw is approximately 10 amps and as conceived the Engine Battery
Bus and the Main Battery Bus are primarily the EFI Bus 1 and 2, respectively.
So far so good.
Note that each of these busses is run off the hot (non-switched) side of the respective
contactor. (The Bat Bus switch is a race car switch to reduce draw
by 1 amp).
The problem enters thus: Each EFI system must be able to be powered by either
battery. (1 at a time) Absent a number of switches/relays on the bus feeds there
doesn't seem to be an elegant way to isolate the batteries. Back feeding
can be handled by heat-sinked schottky diodes (4 of them in this case) The result
is effectively a single large (2x) battery when running in an alternator-out
situation.
This may not be a bad thing, assuming 2 good batteries, but I am more comfortable
with the scenario of running 1 battery down, switching to the other and having
a known drop-dead (literally) time upon which to depend. Which, of course,
requires the ability to isolate the batteries.
I apologize for the long-winded post, but decisions must be put into tinned copper
and tefzel and I plead for some wisdom from the forum.
Many thanks,
Creighton Smith Rotax 912
P.S. I wish I could add a second alternator, but the intake manifold and runners
don't leave enough space and the stock alternator is replaced by the ignition
hall effect crank sensor and a 50 amp, belt driven IR alternator.
C S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308207#308207
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 07:44 AM 8/10/2010, you wrote:
Gordon,
Your diligence and research are commendable. It's
true that words I wrote about this product allowed
me some "wiggle room". The reason being that I had
no first hand experience or knowledge of . . . nor
did I know anyone else who had successfully integrated
this device into their airplane.
>
>I had thought that I had read that Bob had recommended this. With
>more research, I found 21 posts about AM101406 going back to
>2001. I find that Bob has said such things as "consider" and "a
>possible solution", etc.
I includes the JD product in Z9 because
it was part of the experience and skill set
for one William Wynne of http://www.flycorvair.com
I've met Bill at several fly-ins, attended his
forums and conversed with him at length by
email and phone. If Bill tells me that the
AM101406 met his design goals I'm inclined to
believe his assertion is correct . . . and
worthy of tribute in the AeroElectric Connection.
His teachings relieved me of any need to to
"wiggle".
Many of you will recall some tense discussions held
here on the List about various features and
capabilities of alternators from a variety of
sources.
I was similarly crippled in those discussions
in that the only data I had was from my experiences
as a consultant to B&C . . . and what I could deduce
from various manufacturer's data sheets. A couple
of years ago I was honored with an invitation to
join members of this List on a tour of an alternator
re-manufacturing facility. Details of that experience
were added to the most recent update to the chapter
on alternators in the 'Connection.
The upshot being that I can now speak from foundations
of personal observation and experience. What a
difference experience makes! The fact that we can
combine the experience of similarly motivated
individuals on the Lists, in books and websites
makes the sum total a powerful resource for
reduction of $time$ and risk for producing useful
airplanes.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gordon Smith" <gordonrsmith921(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Was-Power Schematic for Review-now-Mission Statement |
& Load Analysis
I would like to answer Bob N.'s points and questions from July 30, 2010, in
parts. This is about the Mission Statement and Load Analysis for a Jabiru
3300 powered Sonex.
Mission Statement:
* Principally to be a Day VFR Recreational Aircraft.
* Capability of Occasional Day VFR Cross Country.
* Capability of Occasional Night VFR.
* Capability of limited IFR (no intentional hard IFC) if accidentally
caught ON-TOP and needing a clearance to descend through a layer. I
remember that the first C-150 that I trained in had this capability. I was
trained under the hood for recovery from unusual attitudes (in case of
accidentally doing something stupid).
EFIS backup would include a slip/skid indicator and a panel mounted second
GPS with a couple of hours of internal battery power. This could provide
approximate airspeed and GPS generated attitude information. I understand
that this is limited info, however in a stable decent can be used with
understanding of its limits. I am planning no ground based NAV receiver
capability.
I understand that this aircraft has limited alternator capacity (20A.) and
panel space. I am planning that the main AC battery will be an Odyssey
PC625 at 17 or 18 AH capacity. I find that in modern avionics and lighting,
there are some very efficient (if expensive) options. Lighting for this AC
will be all LED or HID, inside and out. I intend wing tip LED
Strobe/Position lights and Wig-Wag HID landing lights for day or night
visibility of the AC. There are electrically efficient avionics that
include remote COMs (with internal intercom), remote Transponder all
commanded by the EFIS (minimum panel space required).
I have completed an Excel spreadsheet Load Analysis. This can be posted if
anyone wants to see the detail. The highest E-bus load under all conditions
day or night is under 5 Amps. The highest Main Bus load, day is less than 9
Amps - night is just over 11 Amps. Total max loads runs under 14 Amps Day
(using Wig-Wag & Strobes); night max is a little over 16 Amps on decent to
landing (less than 15 Amps in night cruise). This appears to meet the
recommended 75% max load condition total bus loads.
If I am underestimating E-bus load and it will be as much as 6 or 7 Amps,
this should be OK with a simple Switch for E-bus alternate feed and no need
of a relay. At 5 or 6 Amps E-bus load, is a heat sink needed for the normal
feed diode mounted on aircraft structural metal? Also with this E-bus load
perhaps the E-bus feeds should be downsized from 16AWG to 18AWG or even
20AWG?
Also Bob wrote:
The devices on your
e-bus may not need brownout protection if the internal
resistance of the main battery combined with inrush
characteristics of the starter don't depress the
bus enough to cause re-sets.
Does anyone have any data or experience regarding this point? Given
starting a Jab3300 with a PC625 battery in good condition during ambient
conditions of greater than 60 degrees F.?
Gordon Smith
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tim Andres" <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net> |
So I left my Aerolectric book at work and have a quick question.
Composite A/C, rear engine, Battery.
IIRC, I will need to run power and ground runs to the Strobe power pack,
Fuel Pump and Nav lights, the grounds running all the way back up to the
panel ground. I can't just hit the local ground that is right there at the
Battery near these components. Is this correct practice? I'd be tempted to
use the Firewall ground for the NAV and Fuel pump.
Thanks, Tim Andres
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New Z-8 drawing |
| From: | "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
> The ground power lead can't go through the MANL40.
Sometimes I get so buried in how it all connects that I overlook what it's for.
Thanks for catching that.
> What's your s/b
> alternator/regulator combination again?
>
Main alt, 60a with LR3
Stby, 40a with a generic Ford regulator.
[/quote]better yet, the 9011 dual LV monitor
can watch both the battery and main busses
and perhaps handle s/b alt OV too.
>
>
> Is the 9011 available from the AEC? Or do I need to roll my own?
>
> John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308245#308245
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GROUND LOOPS |
At 11:16 AM 8/10/2010, you wrote:
>So I left my Aerolectric book at work and have a quick question.
>Composite A/C, rear engine, Battery.
>IIRC, I will need to run power and ground runs to the Strobe power
>pack, Fuel Pump and Nav lights, the grounds running all the way back
>up to the panel ground. I can't just hit the local ground that is
>right there at the Battery near these components. Is this correct
>practice? I'd be tempted to use the Firewall ground for the NAV and
>Fuel pump.
These devices are neither potential antagonists
or victims. As shown in Z-15, they can be grounded
"locally" on a metal airplane. This translates
to "closest practical" locations on a plastic
airplane,
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New Z-8 drawing |
>> What's your s/b
>> alternator/regulator combination again?
> Main alt, 60a with LR3
> Stby, 40a with a generic Ford regulator.
>> better yet, the 9011 dual LV monitor
>> can watch both the battery and main busses
>> and perhaps handle s/b alt OV too.
Okay, we can press a 9024 into service as dual
LV warning only. Another 9024 would take care
of lv warning for both battery and main busses
PLUS ov protection for the S/B alternator.
> Is the 9011 available from the AEC? Or do I need to roll my own?
The 9011 is all done except for writing the installation
manual and getting it into production. Proof
of concept articles have been flying for awhile
with no unhappy feedback. The 9011 will be right
on the heels of the 9024.
Also, the amber LED warning light fixtures
illustrated at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/
are available. I could probably come up
with placards too.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David LLoyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery tender |
Bill,
I will be gone for a week or so.... I will try to remember when I get
back and into my hangar to find the details I saved on 'which' pot
handles the float voltage setting and which pot wiper arm direction will
increase the voltage. Bug me, if you do not hear from my in 10 days or
so......
Another thought.... when I first had my problem, several years ago, I
called the manuf. and talked to the owner or someone that knew what I
was talking about. After convincing him that I could handle the
adjustment job, he told me which pot did what. So, you might try and
call them and see if they are still hospitable about the answers......
David
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Hibbing
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery tender
Thanks David,
I took Lectric Bob's advice and bought a Schumacher at WallyWorld for
about $20 or so. But I still have the unit in question so I'm going to
play around with it and see what I can do...when it cools off a bit here
in Memphis.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: David LLoyd
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery tender
Bill,
The BT is mass produced in a foreign land like everything else this
country now uses.
Inside the box are two adjustable mini-pots. They were obviously
set wrong as the float voltage should be about 13.1 to 13.3 volts. If
you are handy you can change the float voltage pot. It is silicone'd to
hold its setting so a little exacto knifing has to be done to get the
pot to move. The pot change needed is "tiny" so if opened, go in baby
sets and always do the experiment with a battery connected to the
outputs and allow an hour or more for the new setting to stabilize.
Otherwise....just get another unit and test it thoroughly when
opened so you can take it back if the settings are wrong. Be sure to
use a good volt meter.
David
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Hibbing
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 9:26 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery tender
I've got a BatteryTender Plus that has a float voltage of 12.7
volts. This is on both a new battery and the one that is being
replaced. Is it time for a new Batterytender?
Bill
Glasair SIIS-FT
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
- Release Date: 08/09/10 13:35:00
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson(at)pobox.com> |
| Subject: | CdS Photocell Holder/Fixture |
Hi All,
I'm trying to locate a holder/fixture for a CdS photocell
(http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=PDV-P9203-ND)
so that I can mount one on the panel. Google, Mouser, and Digikey searches just
don't seem to be working for me.
Thank you,
/\/elson
~~ Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any spring. ~~
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: GROUND LOOPS |
| From: | "tomcostanza" <Tom(at)CostanzaAndAssociates.com> |
Hey Bob,
Could you explain, or point me to an explanation of, what kinds of things qualify
as antagonists? From your reply to this question, it's clear I don't understand.
--------
Clear Skies,
Tom Costanza
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308337#308337
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GROUND LOOPS |
At 05:33 AM 8/11/2010, you wrote:
>
>
>Hey Bob,
>
>Could you explain, or point me to an explanation of, what kinds of
>things qualify as antagonists? From your reply to this question,
>it's clear I don't understand.
99% of the time, antagonists are generally those devices
which generate noise in the form of electrical "wiggles".
These include radios that are poorly shielded. Motors. Strobe
power supplies. Certainly alternators. Instruments with
poorly shielded/filtered LCD power supplies. Switchmode
power adapters common to many hand-held devices including
GPS, cellphones, PDA, MP3 players, etc.
There are some instances where non-wigglers like incandescent
landing lights, pitot heaters, nav lights, etc can influence
other systems . . . like the example I gave for poorly grounded
engine instruments being affected by variations in current
flowing through a crankcase-to-battery ground conductor.
Even if the device IS a potential antagonist (like a strobe
power supply), not carrying it's power ground back to a
single point does not represent a risk as long as POTENTIAL
victims do not share the same ground path.
This is discussed in some detail in chapter 16 of the
'Connection. In that work I attempt to explain that
potential victims and antagonists can and do coexist
in airplanes as long as you make sure there is no
PROPAGATION mode for the conveyance of malicious
energy between them. Breaking of propagation pathways
includes but is not limited to certain kinds of shielding,
filters, modification of design to reduce noise and
installation practices to eliminate shared ground paths.
I can tell you that airplanes like the Beechjet have
HUGE potential antagonists, and exceedingly vulnerable
victims that for the most part have worked side by side
for a long time. This is a design goal for every TC
aircraft and should be a goal for OBAM aircraft as well.
The vast majority of your potential victims reside on
the panel. Judicious attention to grounding at the
panel will greatly reduce potential for problems
no matter how your ground other accessories scattered
about the airplane.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: CdS Photocell Holder/Fixture |
Hi All,
I'm trying to locate a holder/fixture for a CdS photocell
(http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=PDV-P9203-ND)
so that I can mount one on the panel. Google, Mouser, and Digikey
searches just don't seem to be working for me.
Thank you,
/\/elson
These devices are members of the family
of parts intended to be components of a
larger assembly. I don't recall ever seeing
a "holder" for such devices. Building a holder
is not difficult.
Poke around in your local electronics supply
houses including Radio Shack. You can probably
find an existing product like . . .
Emacs!
that can be stripped of its innards and
then modified to your purposes with the
help of a little wire, solder and epoxy.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson(at)pobox.com> |
| Subject: | Re: CdS Photocell Holder/Fixture |
Hi Bob,
I've seen some LED fixtures that just might fit the bill as you describe.
Vi!
Thank you,
/\/elson
~~ Lately my memory seems to be like a steel trap .... without any spring. ~~
On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I'm trying to locate a holder/fixture for a CdS photocell ( http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=PDV-P9203-ND ) so that I can mount one on the panel. Google,
> Mouser, and Digikey searches just don't seem to be working for me.
>
> Thank you,
> /\/elson
>
> These devices are members of the family
> of parts intended to be components of a
> larger assembly. I don't recall ever seeing
> a "holder" for such devices. Building a holder
> is not difficult.
>
> Poke around in your local electronics supply
> houses including Radio Shack. You can probably
> find an existing product like . . .
>
> Emacs!
>
> that can be stripped of its innards and
> then modified to your purposes with the
> help of a little wire, solder and epoxy.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New Z-8 drawing |
| From: | "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
> Okay, we can press a 9024 into service as dual
> LV warning only. Another 9024 would take care
> of lv warning for both battery and main busses
> PLUS ov protection for the S/B alternator.
>
I'm a little confused about the need for two 9024's if one can give LV indication
for Batt and Main busses and OV protection from the stby alt.
And would the OV protection extend to the shared contactor (stby alt/GPJ) for the
ground power jack as in the attached?
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308387#308387
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/z8_w_sb_alt_gpj_conceptual__214.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New Z-8 drawing |
>
>I'm a little confused about the need for two 9024's if one can give
>LV indication for Batt and Main busses and OV protection from the stby alt.
Oops, I had a brain-f@#t and was running the
hampster wheel on another system. Got too many
irons in the fire.
I'm still stirring the pot on how to get the
s/b alternator b-lead contactor to retain
ground power reverse polarity and ov protection.
The architecture you've illustrated agrees with
my best recipe for the moment. Separate ov protection
for the ground power contactor (probably crowbar)
and another for s/b alternator field (probably
9024 driving a relay so you don't need a circuit
breaker).
>And would the OV protection extend to the shared contactor (stby
>alt/GPJ) for the ground power jack as in the attached?
We need to think about how the crowbar ov
module interacts with the 9024 ov protection.
We don't want the contactor to open before the
ov relay gets tripped. I think we'll want to wire
things so that the crowbar module is effective only
while the ground power control switch/breaker is
closed. I.e. move the black wire to the cathode
end of the diode in the ground power control lead.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: New Z-8 drawing |
| From: | "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
> Oops, I had a brain-f@#t and was running the
> hampster wheel on another system. Got too many
> irons in the fire.
No worries and I know that I speak for all of us on this forum; it is simply astounding
that you manage to participate here as much as you do AND keep your day
job.
> I think we'll want to wire
> things so that the crowbar module is effective only
> while the ground power control switch/breaker is
> closed. I.e. move the black wire to the cathode
> end of the diode in the ground power control lead.
>
OK, that's done in the attached. I quarantined the 9005 module for now until OV
protection and LV monitoring gets ironed out. With 9024 control of the SB alt,
I deleted the fuselink from the Batt bus in favor of a 5a fuse.
Re the Main bus, with an LR3 in there, it seems that the main bus is taken care
of and it's not necessary to integrate the SB alt 9024 voltage monitoring into
the main bus. Can a 9024 now focus solely on the SB alt and battery bus?
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308465#308465
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/z8_w_sb_alt_gpj_conceptual__345.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: GROUND LOOPS |
| From: | "tomcostanza" <Tom(at)CostanzaAndAssociates.com> |
Bob,
OK. Maybe I understood more than I thought. What you wrote in your reply to me,
is what I thought was an antagonist (motor, strobe power supply). But in your
earlier response to Tim (the one that confused me), you said a fuel pump (motor)
and strobe power supply were not potential antagonists (hence my confusion).
What am I missing?
> Quote:
> So I left my Aerolectric book at work and have a quick question.
> Composite A/C, rear engine, Battery.
> IIRC, I will need to run power and ground runs to the Strobe power pack, Fuel
Pump and Nav lights, the grounds running all the way back up to the panel ground.
I cant just hit the local ground that is right there at the Battery near
these components. Is this correct practice? Id be tempted to use the Firewall
ground for the NAV and Fuel pump.
>
> These devices are neither potential antagonists
> or victims. As shown in Z-15, they can be grounded
> "locally" on a metal airplane. This translates
> to "closest practical" locations on a plastic
> airplane,
Thanks again,
-Tom
--------
Clear Skies,
Tom Costanza
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308478#308478
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: GROUND LOOPS |
At 06:52 AM 8/12/2010, you wrote:
>
>
>Bob,
>
>OK. Maybe I understood more than I thought. What you wrote in your
>reply to me, is what I thought was an antagonist (motor, strobe
>power supply). But in your earlier response to Tim (the one that
>confused me), you said a fuel pump (motor) and strobe power supply
>were not potential antagonists (hence my confusion). What am I missing?
Sorry, they're not potential PROBLEMS . . . assuming that
the potential victims are corralled off on their own
ground system. After all the panel mounted stuff is
protected, you can do about anything you want elsewhere
on the airplane. While outlying devices ARE capable
of being antagonists, they are not potential victims
and will not interfere with each other. Let's hear
it for precise speech! Your diligence in the quest
is commendable.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Firewall Hot-Side Enclosure |
| From: | Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> |
I was thinking about how it might be convenient to house some of the
electrical components on the hot side of the firewall inside of an
environmentally sealed plastic box. Most land vehicles use something
similar, and if I remember correctly Cessna started doing something similar
on their post-1997 production singles. The items that I had in mind were
the contactors, current limiters, shunts, maybe a small fuse block for the
battery bus, and that sort of thing. The box would keep out the engine
compartment grime, and there are lots of different designs available in the
sporting goods industry. Has anyone done something similar, or can anyone
think of why this would be a bad idea?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Dudley" <rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Hot-Side Enclosure |
Hi Jared,
I looked through my collection of construction photos and found three
that might be of interest. I made a cover of fiberglass to physically
protect electrically "hot" components that had large exposed areas. My
concern was more for protecting them from any possibility of conductive
contact to airframe ground more than for protection from dust or oil
vapors. The two components protected were an ammeter shunt and an ANL 60
fuse to the output from the alternator. Both of these were at battery
positive potential when the master switch was closed.
I made the cover of fiberglass. It had openings on two sides: to the
alternator, ammeter and the master contactor. I attached it to the
firewall with screws and nutplates.
There are three photos, one of the components uncovered, and two of the
fiberglass cover in place. The cover was later painted.
I hope this is of some help.
Best regards and good luck,
Richard Dudley
RV-6A (sold)
----- Original Message -----
From: Jared Yates
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 5:09 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Firewall Hot-Side Enclosure
I was thinking about how it might be convenient to house some of the
electrical components on the hot side of the firewall inside of an
environmentally sealed plastic box. Most land vehicles use something
similar, and if I remember correctly Cessna started doing something
similar on their post-1997 production singles. The items that I had in
mind were the contactors, current limiters, shunts, maybe a small fuse
block for the battery bus, and that sort of thing. The box would keep
out the engine compartment grime, and there are lots of different
designs available in the sporting goods industry. Has anyone done
something similar, or can anyone think of why this would be a bad idea?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Hot-Side Enclosure |
| From: | Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> |
Richard, thanks for taking the time to search your archives. Did you
encounter any problems with your box in service?
On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Richard Dudley wrote:
> Hi Jared,
>
> I looked through my collection of construction photos and found three that
> might be of interest. I made a cover of fiberglass to physically protect
> electrically "hot" components that had large exposed areas. My concern was
> more for protecting them from any possibility of conductive contact to
> airframe ground more than for protection from dust or oil vapors. The two
> components protected were an ammeter shunt and an ANL 60 fuse to the output
> from the alternator. Both of these were at battery positive potential when
> the master switch was closed.
>
> I made the cover of fiberglass. It had openings on two sides: to the
> alternator, ammeter and the master contactor. I attached it to the firewall
> with screws and nutplates.
>
> There are three photos, one of the components uncovered, and two of the
> fiberglass cover in place. The cover was later painted.
>
> I hope this is of some help.
>
> Best regards and good luck,
>
> Richard Dudley
> RV-6A (sold)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Jared Yates
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Sent:* Friday, August 13, 2010 5:09 PM
> *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Firewall Hot-Side Enclosure
>
> I was thinking about how it might be convenient to house some of the
> electrical components on the hot side of the firewall inside of an
> environmentally sealed plastic box. Most land vehicles use something
> similar, and if I remember correctly Cessna started doing something similar
> on their post-1997 production singles. The items that I had in mind were
> the contactors, current limiters, shunts, maybe a small fuse block for the
> battery bus, and that sort of thing. The box would keep out the engine
> compartment grime, and there are lots of different designs available in the
> sporting goods industry. Has anyone done something similar, or can anyone
> think of why this would be a bad idea?
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c*
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Dudley" <rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Hot-Side Enclosure |
Jared,
No problems over 140 hours over tree years flying mostly in Florida.
Rich
----- Original Message -----
From: Jared Yates
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Firewall Hot-Side Enclosure
Richard, thanks for taking the time to search your archives. Did you
encounter any problems with your box in service?
On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Richard Dudley
wrote:
Hi Jared,
I looked through my collection of construction photos and found
three that might be of interest. I made a cover of fiberglass to
physically protect electrically "hot" components that had large exposed
areas. My concern was more for protecting them from any possibility of
conductive contact to airframe ground more than for protection from dust
or oil vapors. The two components protected were an ammeter shunt and an
ANL 60 fuse to the output from the alternator. Both of these were at
battery positive potential when the master switch was closed.
I made the cover of fiberglass. It had openings on two sides: to the
alternator, ammeter and the master contactor. I attached it to the
firewall with screws and nutplates.
There are three photos, one of the components uncovered, and two of
the fiberglass cover in place. The cover was later painted.
I hope this is of some help.
Best regards and good luck,
Richard Dudley
RV-6A (sold)
----- Original Message -----
From: Jared Yates
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 5:09 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Firewall Hot-Side Enclosure
I was thinking about how it might be convenient to house some of
the electrical components on the hot side of the firewall inside of an
environmentally sealed plastic box. Most land vehicles use something
similar, and if I remember correctly Cessna started doing something
similar on their post-1997 production singles. The items that I had in
mind were the contactors, current limiters, shunts, maybe a small fuse
block for the battery bus, and that sort of thing. The box would keep
out the engine compartment grime, and there are lots of different
designs available in the sporting goods industry. Has anyone done
something similar, or can anyone think of why this would be a bad idea?
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Hot-Side Enclosure |
| From: | bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
richard,
i noticed your conventional baffling for cooling your jab. i am a few
months away from a first flight and i did the same type of cooling. how has
this baffling worked for cooling? was there much ''tweaking'' after it was
done to get the temps down enough?
bob noffs
On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Richard Dudley wrote:
> Hi Jared,
>
> I looked through my collection of construction photos and found three that
> might be of interest. I made a cover of fiberglass to physically protect
> electrically "hot" components that had large exposed areas. My concern was
> more for protecting them from any possibility of conductive contact to
> airframe ground more than for protection from dust or oil vapors. The two
> components protected were an ammeter shunt and an ANL 60 fuse to the output
> from the alternator. Both of these were at battery positive potential when
> the master switch was closed.
>
> I made the cover of fiberglass. It had openings on two sides: to the
> alternator, ammeter and the master contactor. I attached it to the firewall
> with screws and nutplates.
>
> There are three photos, one of the components uncovered, and two of the
> fiberglass cover in place. The cover was later painted.
>
> I hope this is of some help.
>
> Best regards and good luck,
>
> Richard Dudley
> RV-6A (sold)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Jared Yates
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Sent:* Friday, August 13, 2010 5:09 PM
> *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Firewall Hot-Side Enclosure
>
> I was thinking about how it might be convenient to house some of the
> electrical components on the hot side of the firewall inside of an
> environmentally sealed plastic box. Most land vehicles use something
> similar, and if I remember correctly Cessna started doing something similar
> on their post-1997 production singles. The items that I had in mind were
> the contactors, current limiters, shunts, maybe a small fuse block for the
> battery bus, and that sort of thing. The box would keep out the engine
> compartment grime, and there are lots of different designs available in the
> sporting goods industry. Has anyone done something similar, or can anyone
> think of why this would be a bad idea?
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c*
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Dudley" <rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Hot-Side Enclosure |
Hi Bob,
I did nothing special, only following Van's parts and plans for the
baffling. I did seal around the edges of the rear baffle. The
temperatures ran normal without any tweaking. The engine is a O-320-D1A
purchased new from Van's and my oil cooler was firewall mounted on the
right side.
Regards,
Rich
RV-6A (sold)
----- Original Message -----
From: bob noffs
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Firewall Hot-Side Enclosure
richard,
i noticed your conventional baffling for cooling your jab. i am a few
months away from a first flight and i did the same type of cooling. how
has this baffling worked for cooling? was there much ''tweaking'' after
it was done to get the temps down enough?
bob noffs
On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Richard Dudley
wrote:
Hi Jared,
I looked through my collection of construction photos and found
three that might be of interest. I made a cover of fiberglass to
physically protect electrically "hot" components that had large exposed
areas. My concern was more for protecting them from any possibility of
conductive contact to airframe ground more than for protection from dust
or oil vapors. The two components protected were an ammeter shunt and an
ANL 60 fuse to the output from the alternator. Both of these were at
battery positive potential when the master switch was closed.
I made the cover of fiberglass. It had openings on two sides: to the
alternator, ammeter and the master contactor. I attached it to the
firewall with screws and nutplates.
There are three photos, one of the components uncovered, and two of
the fiberglass cover in place. The cover was later painted.
I hope this is of some help.
Best regards and good luck,
Richard Dudley
RV-6A (sold)
----- Original Message -----
From: Jared Yates
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 5:09 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Firewall Hot-Side Enclosure
I was thinking about how it might be convenient to house some of
the electrical components on the hot side of the firewall inside of an
environmentally sealed plastic box. Most land vehicles use something
similar, and if I remember correctly Cessna started doing something
similar on their post-1997 production singles. The items that I had in
mind were the contactors, current limiters, shunts, maybe a small fuse
block for the battery bus, and that sort of thing. The box would keep
out the engine compartment grime, and there are lots of different
designs available in the sporting goods industry. Has anyone done
something similar, or can anyone think of why this would be a bad idea?
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Hot-Side Enclosure |
At 04:09 PM 8/13/2010, you wrote:
>I was thinking about how it might be convenient to house some of the
>electrical components on the hot side of the firewall inside of an
>environmentally sealed plastic box. Most land vehicles use
>something similar, and if I remember correctly Cessna started doing
>something similar on their post-1997 production singles. The items
>that I had in mind were the contactors, current limiters, shunts,
>maybe a small fuse block for the battery bus, and that sort of
>thing. The box would keep out the engine compartment grime, and
>there are lots of different designs available in the sporting goods
>industry. Has anyone done something similar, or can anyone think of
>why this would be a bad idea?
The strongest motivation for doing such
things in production had to do with modularizing
certain tasks which were ultimately farmed out
to other firms. Lamar and Kelly were both
examples of firms offering assemblies of
many parts that were installed as a simpler,
single operation on the production line.
While elegant in terms of labor to install,
it was less than elegant in terms of weight,
cooling, being able to optimally position
contained components and hassles of working
inside a more constrained space for maintenance.
Nonetheless, it's something of a "fad" . . .
There's a big power distribution box in
the tail of a Premier that's easy to install,
easy to take out and set on the bench . . .
but in the airplane it's impossible to
troubleshoot and out of the airplane you
can't operate it for the purposes of
troubleshooting.
Production line convenience was traded for
weight and constraints on field maintenance.
What ever rings your bells . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott Klemptner <bmwr606(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Firewall Hot-Side Enclosure |
speaking from experience,
the Lamar "box" as found in current production Cessna's is a royal PITA for
maintenance....
job...replace starter relay 2000 cessna 172 (for the second time!)
remove ground wire from battery
remove several buss bars (mounting bolts obstructed)
remove master relay (mounting bolts obstructed)
remove avionics relay(mounting bolts obstructed)
remove ground power relay(mounting bolts obstructed)
remove and replace starter relay(mounting bolts obstructed)
replace ground power relay (remember those @#%& obstructed mounting bolts?)
replace avionics relay (remember those @#%& obstructed mounting bolts?)
replace master relay (remember those @#%& obstructed mounting bolts?)
replace buss bars (remember those @#%& obstructed mounting bolts?)
replace ground wire to battery
TIME INVOLVED over 2 hours
=====================================
job...replace starter relay 1971 cessna 150
remove ground wire at battery (optional IMO as there are NO hot wires near the
starter relay)
remove and replace starter relay
replace ground wire at battery (optional IMO as there are NO hot wires near the
starter relay)
TIME INVOLVED 10 minutes (15 if ground wire removed)
Scott A Klemptner
bmwr606 on Yahoo IM
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits-
Anonymous
________________________________
F
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Firewall Hot-Side Enclosure
At 04:09 PM 8/13/2010, you wrote:
>I was thinking about how it might be convenient to house some of the
>electrical components on the hot side of the firewall inside of an
>environmentally sealed plastic box. Most land vehicles use
>something similar, and if I remember correctly Cessna started doing
>something similar on their post-1997 production singles. The items
>that I had in mind were the contactors, current limiters, shunts,
>maybe a small fuse block for the battery bus, and that sort of
>thing. The box would keep out the engine compartment grime, and
>there are lots of different designs available in the sporting goods
>industry. Has anyone done something similar, or can anyone think of
>why this would be a bad idea?
The strongest motivation for doing such
things in production had to do with modularizing
certain tasks which were ultimately farmed out
to other firms. Lamar and Kelly were both
examples of firms offering assemblies of
many parts that were installed as a simpler,
single operation on the production line.
While elegant in terms of labor to install,
it was less than elegant in terms of weight,
cooling, being able to optimally position
contained components and hassles of working
inside a more constrained space for maintenance.
Nonetheless, it's something of a "fad" . . .
There's a big power distribution box in
the tail of a Premier that's easy to install,
easy to take out and set on the bench . . .
but in the airplane it's impossible to
troubleshoot and out of the airplane you
can't operate it for the purposes of
troubleshooting.
Production line convenience was traded for
weight and constraints on field maintenance.
What ever rings your bells . . .
Bob . . .
_
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Hot-Side Enclosure |
| From: | Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> |
Good points, thanks for the info. With your advice and Bob's, I'll save the t
rouble and find something else to spend time on. On a related note, would th
e "liquid electrical tape" stuff be suitable for insulating some of those ex
posed hot conductors?
On Aug 15, 2010, at 10:47, Scott Klemptner wrote:
> speaking from experience,
> the Lamar "box" as found in current production Cessna's is a royal PITA f
or maintenance....
>
> job...replace starter relay 2000 cessna 172 (for the second time!)
> remove ground wire from battery
> remove several buss bars (mounting bolts obstructed)
> remove master relay (mounting bolts obstructed)
> remove avionics relay (mounting bolts obstructed)
> remove ground power relay (mounting bolts obstructed)
> remove and replace starter relay (mounting bolts obstructed)
> replace ground power relay (remember those @#%& obstructed mounting bolts?
)
> replace avionics relay (remember those @#%& obstructed mounting bolts?)
> replace master relay (remember those @#%& obstructed mounting bolts?)
> replace buss bars (remember those @#%& obstructed mounting bolts?)
> replace ground wire to battery
>
> TIME INVOLVED over 2 hours
>
> =========================
============
> job...replace starter relay 1971 cessna 150
>
> remove ground wire at battery (optional IMO as there are NO hot wires near
the starter relay)
> remove and replace starter relay
> replace ground wire at battery (optional IMO as there are NO hot wires nea
r the starter relay)
>
> TIME INVOLVED 10 minutes (15 if ground wire removed)
>
> Scott A Klemptner
> bmwr606 on Yahoo IM
>
> The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits-
Anonymous
>
>
>
>
>
> F
>
>
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Firewall Hot-Side Enclosure
>
>
> At 04:09 PM 8/13/2010, you wrote:
> >I was thinking about how it might be convenient to house some of the
> >electrical components on the hot side of the firewall inside of an
> >environmentally sealed plastic box. Most land vehicles use
> >something similar, and if I remember correctly Cessna started doing
> >something similar on their post-1997 production singles. The items
> >that I had in mind were the contactors, current limiters, shunts,
> >maybe a small fuse block for the battery bus, and that sort of
> >thing. The box would keep out the engine compartment grime, and
> >there are lots of different designs available in the sporting goods
> >industry. Has anyone done something similar, or can anyone think of
> >why this would be a bad idea?
>
> The strongest motivation for doing such
> things in production had to do with modularizing
> certain tasks which were ultimately farmed out
> to other firms. Lamar and Kelly were both
> examples of firms offering assemblies of
> many parts that were installed as a simpler,
> single operation on the production line.
>
> While elegant in terms of labor to install,
> it was less than elegant in terms of weight,
> cooling, being able to optimally position
> contained components and hassles of working
> inside a more constrained space for maintenance.
>
> Nonetheless, it's something of a "fad" . . .
> There's a big power distribution box in
> the tail of a Premier that's easy to install,
> easy to take out and set on the bench . . .
> but in the airplane it's impossible to
> troubleshoot and out of the airplane you
> can't operate it for the purposes of
> troubleshooting.
>
> Production line convenience was traded for
> weight and constraints on field maintenance.
>
> What ever rings your bells . . .
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
> _
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Hot-Side Enclosure |
At 10:18 AM 8/15/2010, you wrote:
>Good points, thanks for the info. With your advice and Bob's, I'll
>save the trouble and find something else to spend time on. On a
>related note, would the "liquid electrical tape" stuff be suitable
>for insulating some of those exposed hot conductors?
To what purpose? There are thousands of instances
on multi-millions of vehicles where there are "exposed
hazards". Fans, fan belts, whirling propellers, sucking
engine intakes, pinch points, non-insulated electrical
connections, etc. etc.
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Breakers/Breaker_Panel_Busing_2.jpg
The firewall of an A36 Bonanza is covered with exposed,
high current electrical connections.
The questions to be asked and answered are, what conditions
are necessary to make risks for these potential hazards
to rise to significance. For example, taxiing up to the pumps
on a little airport with no human being in sight is a
significantly lower risk for getting your propeller messy
than at an airshow with little kids running around with abandon.
Take each instance of concern. Are there others like it on
other airplanes? Particularly airplanes with long production
histories? Imagine the task of approaching this configuration
with crowbar and hammer in hand with a task, "go forth my son
and cause some part of the airplane to contact this exposed
terminal."
With some reasonably attentive study and application
of common sense, I think you'll find that the risks
are so low as to not be worthy of concern . . . for
there are OTHER risks to flight that are worthy of
much concern.
Finally, "liquid tape" is probably not a material
worthy of critical application anywhere. It's nothing
more robust than some coating of plastic paint that
one might brush over any surface.
It's been my experience that the more you try to
"cover things up" for what ever reason, the more
likely you are to trap moisture underneath imperfect
coatings and set up conditions for corrosion to
progress un-observed.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Hot-Side Enclosure |
At 09:47 AM 8/15/2010, you wrote:
>speaking from experience,
>the Lamar "box" as found in current production Cessna's is a royal
>PITA for maintenance....
>
>job...replace starter relay 2000 cessna 172 (for the second time!)
>remove ground wire from battery
>remove several buss bars (mounting bolts obstructed)
>remove master relay (mounting bolts obstructed)
>remove avionics relay (mounting bolts obstructed)
>remove ground power relay (mounting bolts obstructed)
>remove and replace starter relay (mounting bolts obstructed)
>replace ground power relay (remember those @#%& obstructed mounting bolts?)
>replace avionics relay (remember those @#%& obstructed mounting bolts?)
>replace master relay (remember those @#%& obstructed mounting bolts?)
>replace buss bars (remember those @#%& obstructed mounting bolts?)
>replace ground wire to battery
>
>TIME INVOLVED over 2 hours
Yup, your first hand experience conforms with my
first-hand impressions for having seen one such
assembly for the first time. I'll suggest that
such inventions are the product of folks who have
never turned a wrench yet are charged with "modularizing"
portions of the airplane for "manufacturing convenience".
This trend gives rise to the notion that if you
modularized 99% of the airplane's components
and systems, those modules can be farmed out.
Then all we have to do is bring in truck-loads
of tinker-toys, put tab-A-into-slot-B and presto-
changeo, you have an airplane.
That concept bit Boeing in the hind end
big time on the 787. But it's amazing to watch
the same experiment being tried over and over
again by individuals who are surprised with
the results.
I'm not suggesting that modularizing is always
bad. Certainly engines, radios, instruments,
etc have been proven by many repeatable experiments
to lend themselves well to outside production.
But there are limits beyond which the return
on investment becomes exceedingly poor.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | headset cushions |
| From: | bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
hi all, i have a lightspeed headset that has become separated from the cloth
covered ear cushions. cushions and headset are fine but some adhesive to
reconnect.
anyone have a solution ?
bob noffs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Dudley" <rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: headset cushions |
Hi Bob,
I've owned two Lightspeed headsets. On several occasions, there were
problems with the cushions. I contacted the manufacturer, and they sent
me new ones free of charge. On another occasion, the sheathing of the
wires to or from the battery box had slipped uncovering the insulation
of the wires. This time they said send them the headset and they would
repair free of charge. I would suggest that you discuss your problem
them with. If their policy has not changed, i expect that they will
repair or replace parts without charge.
Regards,
Rich Dudley
----- Original Message -----
From: bob noffs
To: aeroelectric list
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 6:43 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: headset cushions
hi all, i have a lightspeed headset that has become separated from the
cloth covered ear cushions. cushions and headset are fine but some
adhesive to reconnect.
anyone have a solution ?
bob noffs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com> |
| Subject: | Re: headset cushions |
If you send it back to them they will probably fix it for free and maybe
give you some upgrades, depending on the model.
----- Original Message -----
From: bob noffs
To: aeroelectric list
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 3:43 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: headset cushions
hi all, i have a lightspeed headset that has become separated from the
cloth covered ear cushions. cushions and headset are fine but some
adhesive to reconnect.
anyone have a solution ?
bob noffs
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
08/14/10 23:35:00
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: headset cushions |
| From: | "DeWitt (Dee) Whittington" <dee.whittington(at)gmail.com> |
Yes, Rchard, I've twice sent my old Lightspeeds back to the company
and twice I got refurbished, new looking headsets back...free. Great
folks.
Dew
On Sunday, August 15, 2010, Richard Dudley wrote:
>
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> I'veowned two Lightspeed headsets. On several occasions,
> there were problems with the cushions. I contacted the manufacturer, and they
> sent me new ones free of charge. On another occasion, thesheathing of the
> wires to or from the battery box had slipped uncovering the insulation of the
> wires.This timethey said send them the headset and they would repair
> free of charge. I would suggest that youdiscuss your problemthem
> with. If their policy has not changed, i expect that they will repair or replace
> parts without charge.
>
> Regards,
>
> Rich Dudley
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> bob noffs
> To: aeroelectric list
> Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 6:43
> PM
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: headset
> cushions
>
>
> hi all, i have a lightspeed headset that has become separated from the
> cloth covered ear cushions. cushions and headset are fine but some adhesive
to
> reconnect.
> anyone have a solution ?
> bob noffs
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
--
DeWitt (Dee) Whittington
www.VirginiaFlyIn.org
Building Glasair Sportsman with partners
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: headset cushions |
Contact cement works fine. Better than the original glue.
Ken
bob noffs wrote:
> hi all, i have a lightspeed headset that has become separated from the
> cloth covered ear cushions. cushions and headset are fine but some
> adhesive to reconnect.
> anyone have a solution ?
> bob noffs
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Aeroflash power supply |
I have a failed Aeroflash 152-0011 double flash strobe power supply.
Aeroflash tells me they will not overhaul it as it is older than 5 years.
It charges the 50uf 450 volt capacitor. I can hear the trigger fire at
about 450 volts, the voltage keeps building and after about 3 audible
triggers it shuts down, likely due to overvoltage at about 500 volts.
After several seconds the voltage decays and this repeats. There are no
trigger pulses to the flash tube at any time. Even with this
description, the Aeroflash support tech thinks it is the proprietary
photoflash capacitor but I thought I'd ask the list for any thoughts. It
seems that the cap charges OK so I was surprised that the technician
still thinks it is the capacitor. It seems they have very few failures
of any other components. I have not found a circuit diagram and the
semiconductors are not marked.
thanks
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: headset cushions |
Hmmm ... are lots of people having trouble with Lightspeed headsets?
Cushions coming off? Exposed wires? Multiple trips to the factory for
refurbishment?
They may be great folks to deal with, but is the original product weak is
certain areas?
I haven't owned a Lightspeed - just curious.
Stan Sutterfield
I've twice sent my old Lightspeeds back to the company
and twice I got refurbished, new looking headsets back...free. Great
folks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aeroflash power supply |
At 08:35 AM 8/16/2010, you wrote:
>
>I have a failed Aeroflash 152-0011 double flash strobe power supply.
>Aeroflash tells me they will not overhaul it as it is older than 5 years.
>
>It charges the 50uf 450 volt capacitor. I can hear the trigger fire
>at about 450 volts, the voltage keeps building and after about 3
>audible triggers it shuts down, likely due to overvoltage at about
>500 volts. After several seconds the voltage decays and this
>repeats. There are no trigger pulses to the flash tube at any time.
>Even with this description, the Aeroflash support tech thinks it is
>the proprietary photoflash capacitor but I thought I'd ask the list
>for any thoughts. It seems that the cap charges OK so I was
>surprised that the technician still thinks it is the capacitor. It
>seems they have very few failures of any other components. I have
>not found a circuit diagram and the semiconductors are not marked.
Here's an exemplar flash tube schematic:
Emacs!
There are two capacitors involved with getting
a strobe to flash. One is the fat energy storage
capacitor . . . the one that gets charged to
400+ volts. (C3 in the schematic)
There's another small capacitor (C6 in this schematic)
that also charges to 440+ volts. This is the
trigger generator that gets discharged into
the secondary of a trigger transformer with
about a 1:30 step-up ratio. The resulting
10,000+ volt pulse is simply applied to a wire
that wraps around the glass envelope of the
flash-tube. ELECTROSTATIC coupling of the
trigger pulse through the glass excites the
xenon gas into conduction whereby and energy
from the fat capacitor is discharged through
the gas.
See:
http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_strbfaq.html
What you're describing suggests that the
power supply is working and the energy storage
capacitor is charging. What you're probably
missing is the trigger stimulus.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: headset cushions |
At 09:45 AM 8/16/2010, you wrote:
>
>Hmmm ... are lots of people having trouble with Lightspeed
>headsets? Cushions coming off? Exposed wires? Multiple trips to
>the factory for refurbishment?
>They may be great folks to deal with, but is the original product
>weak is certain areas?
>I haven't owned a Lightspeed - just curious.
I used to rent airplanes . . . and headsets if
the pilots didn't have their own and wanted to
use ours. Some brands of headsets were more robust
than others . . . like David Clarks . . . but
everyone's headsets required some degree of
upkeep. The cockpit of an airplane is a terrible
place to store anything rubber/plastic. My personal headsets
are kept in a special headset bag that goes along with
my documents flight bag and they're never stored
in the airplane. They were really inexpensive headsets
but are still in excellent shape after 500 hours/
15+ years.
A little Armor All treatment of plastic muffs
seems to help with replacement of the plasticizers
that keeps them flexible and crack free.
I would be cautious about throwing mud at any
particular brand without having side-by-side
comparisons of headsets subjected to exactly
the same service stresses.
The most interesting feature folks have cited
about Lightspeed is their willingness to provide
good customer support and attractive prices.
A less robust headset with good field support
can have a much lower cost of ownership than
a premium headset with poor support.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: headset cushions |
| From: | "DeWitt (Dee) Whittington" <dee.whittington(at)gmail.com> |
In my case, my Lightspeed was one of the first models the made and I used it
a lot as a CFII for a 60-member flying club. I'd have no problem buying
another Lightspeed except right now I'm still building the Sportsman and am
not flying much.
Also, I have ears that stick out like Alfred E Neuman (remember, Mr. "What
me worry?" from Mad Magazine), and the Lightspeed was the very most
comfortable headset I could find which I could wear over an hour at a time.
Dee
On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 10:45 AM, wrote:
>
> Hmmm ... are lots of people having trouble with Lightspeed headsets?
> Cushions coming off? Exposed wires? Multiple trips to the factory for
> refurbishment?
> They may be great folks to deal with, but is the original product weak is
> certain areas?
> I haven't owned a Lightspeed - just curious.
> Stan Sutterfield
>
> I've twice sent my old Lightspeeds back to the company
> and twice I got refurbished, new looking headsets back...free. Great
> folks
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
DeWitt (Dee) Whittington
www.VirginiaFlyIn.org
Building Glasair Sportsman with partners
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Aeroflash power supply |
Bob
I cannot find any C6 in the schematic. Is it that small?
Carlos
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: segunda-feira, 16 de Agosto de 2010 15:56
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aeroflash power supply
At 08:35 AM 8/16/2010, you wrote:
I have a failed Aeroflash 152-0011 double flash strobe power supply.
Aeroflash tells me they will not overhaul it as it is older than 5 years.
It charges the 50uf 450 volt capacitor. I can hear the trigger fire at about
450 volts, the voltage keeps building and after about 3 audible triggers it
shuts down, likely due to overvoltage at about 500 volts. After several
seconds the voltage decays and this repeats. There are no trigger pulses to
the flash tube at any time. Even with this description, the Aeroflash
support tech thinks it is the proprietary photoflash capacitor but I thought
I'd ask the list for any thoughts. It seems that the cap charges OK so I was
surprised that the technician still thinks it is the capacitor. It seems
they have very few failures of any other components. I have not found a
circuit diagram and the semiconductors are not marked.
Here's an exemplar flash tube schematic:
Emacs!
There are two capacitors involved with getting
a strobe to flash. One is the fat energy storage
capacitor . . . the one that gets charged to
400+ volts. (C3 in the schematic)
There's another small capacitor (C6 in this schematic)
that also charges to 440+ volts. This is the
trigger generator that gets discharged into
the secondary of a trigger transformer with
about a 1:30 step-up ratio. The resulting
10,000+ volt pulse is simply applied to a wire
that wraps around the glass envelope of the
flash-tube. ELECTROSTATIC coupling of the
trigger pulse through the glass excites the
xenon gas into conduction whereby and energy
from the fat capacitor is discharged through
the gas.
See:
http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_strbfaq.html
What you're describing suggests that the
power supply is working and the energy storage
capacitor is charging. What you're probably
missing is the trigger stimulus.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "F. Tim Yoder" <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aeroflash power supply |
C5 I think.
----- Original Message -----
From: Carlos Trigo
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:32 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Aeroflash power supply
Bob
I cannot find any C6 in the schematic. Is it that small?
Carlos
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: segunda-feira, 16 de Agosto de 2010 15:56
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aeroflash power supply
At 08:35 AM 8/16/2010, you wrote:
I have a failed Aeroflash 152-0011 double flash strobe power supply.
Aeroflash tells me they will not overhaul it as it is older than 5
years.
It charges the 50uf 450 volt capacitor. I can hear the trigger fire at
about 450 volts, the voltage keeps building and after about 3 audible
triggers it shuts down, likely due to overvoltage at about 500 volts.
After several seconds the voltage decays and this repeats. There are no
trigger pulses to the flash tube at any time. Even with this
description, the Aeroflash support tech thinks it is the proprietary
photoflash capacitor but I thought I'd ask the list for any thoughts. It
seems that the cap charges OK so I was surprised that the technician
still thinks it is the capacitor. It seems they have very few failures
of any other components. I have not found a circuit diagram and the
semiconductors are not marked.
Here's an exemplar flash tube schematic:
There are two capacitors involved with getting
a strobe to flash. One is the fat energy storage
capacitor . . . the one that gets charged to
400+ volts. (C3 in the schematic)
There's another small capacitor (C6 in this schematic)
that also charges to 440+ volts. This is the
trigger generator that gets discharged into
the secondary of a trigger transformer with
about a 1:30 step-up ratio. The resulting
10,000+ volt pulse is simply applied to a wire
that wraps around the glass envelope of the
flash-tube. ELECTROSTATIC coupling of the
trigger pulse through the glass excites the
xenon gas into conduction whereby and energy
from the fat capacitor is discharged through
the gas.
See:
http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_strbfaq.html
What you're describing suggests that the
power supply is working and the energy storage
capacitor is charging. What you're probably
missing is the trigger stimulus.
Bob . . .
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
08/15/10 23:35:00
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Mcculley <mcculleyja(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: headset cushions |
Stan,
I can't say enough good things about Lightspeed products and/or their
customer support!
I've been operating with their headsets since the late 1990's and have
had only a couple of instances with the early headband and ear cushion
material. I've never been asked to pay for anything, as they always
replaced components with the most recently up-graded items and also
usually updated other components beyond what I asked for.
I also fly a club aircraft that is fitted with Bose. The differences are
such as to cause me to take my personal Lightspeeds, due to both head
comfort and sound clarity. Price doesn't always indicate superiority!!!
Jim
====================================================================================
Speedy11(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> Hmmm ... are lots of people having trouble with Lightspeed headsets?
> Cushions coming off? Exposed wires? Multiple trips to the factory
> for refurbishment?
> They may be great folks to deal with, but is the original product weak
> is certain areas?
> I haven't owned a Lightspeed - just curious.
> Stan Sutterfield
>
> I've twice sent my old Lightspeeds back to the company
> and twice I got refurbished, new looking headsets back...free. Great
> folks
>
=======================================================================================*
*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Mcculley <mcculleyja(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aeroflash power supply |
Did you mean C5 rather than C6?
Jim
====================================================================================
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 08:35 AM 8/16/2010, you wrote:
>>
>> I have a failed Aeroflash 152-0011 double flash strobe power supply.
>> Aeroflash tells me they will not overhaul it as it is older than 5 years.
>>
>> It charges the 50uf 450 volt capacitor. I can hear the trigger fire
>> at about 450 volts, the voltage keeps building and after about 3
>> audible triggers it shuts down, likely due to overvoltage at about
>> 500 volts. After several seconds the voltage decays and this repeats.
>> There are no trigger pulses to the flash tube at any time. Even with
>> this description, the Aeroflash support tech thinks it is the
>> proprietary photoflash capacitor but I thought I'd ask the list for
>> any thoughts. It seems that the cap charges OK so I was surprised
>> that the technician still thinks it is the capacitor. It seems they
>> have very few failures of any other components. I have not found a
>> circuit diagram and the semiconductors are not marked.
>
> Here's an exemplar flash tube schematic:
>
>
> Emacs!
>
> There are two capacitors involved with getting
> a strobe to flash. One is the fat energy storage
> capacitor . . . the one that gets charged to
> 400+ volts. (C3 in the schematic)
>
> There's another small capacitor (C6 in this schematic)
> that also charges to 440+ volts. This is the
> trigger generator that gets discharged into
> the secondary of a trigger transformer with
> about a 1:30 step-up ratio. The resulting
> 10,000+ volt pulse is simply applied to a wire
> that wraps around the glass envelope of the
> flash-tube. ELECTROSTATIC coupling of the
> trigger pulse through the glass excites the
> xenon gas into conduction whereby and energy
> from the fat capacitor is discharged through
> the gas.
>
> See:
>
> http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_strbfaq.html
>
> What you're describing suggests that the
> power supply is working and the energy storage
> capacitor is charging. What you're probably
> missing is the trigger stimulus.
>
> Bob . . .
==================================================================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | There must be a better way to fix a Garmin GPSMap196 |
| From: | Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins(at)gmail.com> |
I find I have a broken connector pin in my Garmin GPSMap196. This is for
the cable that is the aircraft & computer interface. I took the thing apart
and it could be easily replaced. I called Garmin no-support and they can't
sell me a $0.50 part, but they do have a flat rate repair for just $200.00.
Would anyone happen to know where I might get my hands on such a critter?
Or anyone have one they dropped and wanted to get rid of the heap of parts?
Maybe I could repair the connector by drilling out the bad pin they epoxy in
a D-sub pin.
Trying to attach a couple of blurry photos.
Thanks.
Sam
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: There must be a better way to fix a Garmin GPSMap196 |
On 8/16/2010 5:11 PM, Sam Hoskins wrote:
> I find I have a broken connector pin in my Garmin GPSMap196. This is
> for the cable that is the aircraft & computer interface. I took the
> thing apart and it could be easily replaced. I called Garmin
> no-support and they can't sell me a $0.50 part, but they do have a
> flat rate repair for just $200.00.
>
> Would anyone happen to know where I might get my hands on such a
> critter? Or anyone have one they dropped and wanted to get rid of the
> heap of parts?
>
> Maybe I could repair the connector by drilling out the bad pin they
> epoxy in a D-sub pin.
>
> Trying to attach a couple of blurry photos.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Sam
>
>
Do a little research on which elcheapo Garmins use the same connector
(it's really common), & bid on one on ebay. Or just hard-wire a USB
pigtail into it, & put a mating connector on your cable in the plane.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aeroflash power supply |
On 8/16/2010 8:35 AM, Ken wrote:
>
> I have a failed Aeroflash 152-0011 double flash strobe power supply.
> Aeroflash tells me they will not overhaul it as it is older than 5 years.
>
> It charges the 50uf 450 volt capacitor. I can hear the trigger fire at
> about 450 volts, the voltage keeps building and after about 3 audible
> triggers it shuts down, likely due to overvoltage at about 500 volts.
> After several seconds the voltage decays and this repeats. There are
> no trigger pulses to the flash tube at any time. Even with this
> description, the Aeroflash support tech thinks it is the proprietary
> photoflash capacitor but I thought I'd ask the list for any thoughts.
> It seems that the cap charges OK so I was surprised that the
> technician still thinks it is the capacitor. It seems they have very
> few failures of any other components. I have not found a circuit
> diagram and the semiconductors are not marked.
>
> thanks
> Ken
Note to self: Aeroflash does not adequately support their products.
Avoid that brand.
Not much help for you, but passing along that info could help a lot of
other homebuilders.
Thanks,
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 9024 module lights, labeling |
| From: | "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
Group,
I am labeling the panel that will contain the aux alternator switch and the aux
alternator will most likely be controlled by a 9024. The 9024 low voltage function
will power a flashing LED. As the 9024 latches open in an over voltage event
(triggering the LV LED) and requires removal of power to reset, it seems
that adequate notice of OV power interruption would be given by the flashing LV
LED
So is there any reason to have an OV test switch, or OV indicator light?
Thanks,
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309049#309049
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gregory Clawson <aeroclaw(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Tempermental KT-76A |
I am hoping for some guidance regarding a capricious KT-76A transponder. It
works normally for a while, and then the Mode C cuts out. I am using a Dynon
D-100 for the altitude encoder, then Dynon's grey-code converter to send the
signal to the transponder. All the physical connections are sound, and the
Dynon components are pretty robust. Any suggestions on where I should start
trouble-shooting before I call the avionics shop guys out to the plane?
Thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aeroflash power supply |
The strobe refresher and reference was appreciated.
It seems that the trigger transformer is actually embedded in the molded
silicone base of the 073-0270 flashtube. An old troubleshooting FAQ says
that a voltmeter should measure 150 to 175 volts on the trigger line out
of the power supply (scope still shows zero). The resistances that I
measure on a new flashtube seem to confirm that the transformer is in
the flashtube assembly.
It looks like the triggering SCR in the power supply is a T106C1 rated
at 300 volts. Now if I could just figure out why it has no voltage to
switch...
Ken
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 08:35 AM 8/16/2010, you wrote:
>>
>> I have a failed Aeroflash 152-0011 double flash strobe power supply.
>> Aeroflash tells me they will not overhaul it as it is older than 5 years.
>>
>> It charges the 50uf 450 volt capacitor. I can hear the trigger fire at
>> about 450 volts, the voltage keeps building and after about 3 audible
>> triggers it shuts down, likely due to overvoltage at about 500 volts.
>> After several seconds the voltage decays and this repeats. There are
>> no trigger pulses to the flash tube at any time. Even with this
>> description, the Aeroflash support tech thinks it is the proprietary
>> photoflash capacitor but I thought I'd ask the list for any thoughts.
>> It seems that the cap charges OK so I was surprised that the
>> technician still thinks it is the capacitor. It seems they have very
>> few failures of any other components. I have not found a circuit
>> diagram and the semiconductors are not marked.
>
> Here's an exemplar flash tube schematic:
>
>
> Emacs!
>
> There are two capacitors involved with getting
> a strobe to flash. One is the fat energy storage
> capacitor . . . the one that gets charged to
> 400+ volts. (C3 in the schematic)
>
> There's another small capacitor (C6 in this schematic)
> that also charges to 440+ volts. This is the
> trigger generator that gets discharged into
> the secondary of a trigger transformer with
> about a 1:30 step-up ratio. The resulting
> 10,000+ volt pulse is simply applied to a wire
> that wraps around the glass envelope of the
> flash-tube. ELECTROSTATIC coupling of the
> trigger pulse through the glass excites the
> xenon gas into conduction whereby and energy
> from the fat capacitor is discharged through
> the gas.
>
> See:
>
> http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_strbfaq.html
>
> What you're describing suggests that the
> power supply is working and the energy storage
> capacitor is charging. What you're probably
> missing is the trigger stimulus.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tim Andres" <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Tempermental KT-76A |
In my limited experience, the tray connector gives a lot of trouble. If it
is an older unit especially, try removing and inserting it or just applying
pressure to the face and see if it starts working. If so I'd suggest getting
a new connector.
Tim
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gregory
Clawson
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:46 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tempermental KT-76A
I am hoping for some guidance regarding a capricious KT-76A transponder. It
works normally for a while, and then the Mode C cuts out. I am using a
Dynon D-100 for the altitude encoder, then Dynon's grey-code converter to
send the signal to the transponder. All the physical connections are sound,
and the Dynon components are pretty robust. Any suggestions on where I
should start trouble-shooting before I call the avionics shop guys out to
the plane?
Thanks
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
11:35:00
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> |
| Subject: | Turn co-ordinator power plug |
Hi Guys
Where is the best place to obtain a replacement 3 pin power plug for a
standard electric 'Turn Co-ordinator'
Regards - John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aeroflash power supply |
At 11:38 AM 8/16/2010, you wrote:
>
>Did you mean C5 rather than C6?
Yes, that's a typo. In the schematic I published,
C3 is the flash-tube energy storage capacitor and
C5 is energy source for generating a trigger spike.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | whizzo box dual power wires |
| From: | "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com> |
In the case of avionics that run dual power wires (supposedly to ease load in each
wire), is it okay to terminate the two wires into a single connector to attach
to c/b or should each have its own connector?
Thanks in advance.
--------
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309120#309120
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 9024 module lights, labeling |
At 08:33 PM 8/16/2010, you wrote:
>
>Group,
>
>I am labeling the panel that will contain the aux alternator switch
>and the aux alternator will most likely be controlled by a 9024.
Yes, a single 9024 configured for OV protection combined with
a relay watches the bus voltage and latches a relay to remove
field power on an OV condition. It must be cycled OFF/ON to
reset.
> The 9024 low voltage function will power a flashing LED. As the
> 9024 latches open in an over voltage event (triggering the LV LED)
> and requires removal of power to reset, it seems that adequate
> notice of OV power interruption would be given by the flashing LV LED
No, when configured for LV monitoring, the LED flashes
ONLY while the monitored voltage is less than 13 volts.
The light goes out by itself if the voltage rises after
an LV event.
>So is there any reason to have an OV test switch, or OV indicator light?
No, I've considered a press to test on the ov modules but
they're so reliable that I've not reached the 'tipping point'
for adding that feature. Even in the generator controllers
for the big-guys, hitting the "test" switch emulates a lot
of ov protection shutdown . . . but does not proof the
system's calibration.
I AM considering changing the relay-driven OV protection
to use a DE-energized relay to turn the alternator off.
Since the relay is the most vulnerable component of the
system, it seems like a good idea to have a broken coil
wire annunciated by failure to bring an alternator on
line. The converse philosophy increases risks for an
un-annunicated latent failure with no means for pre-flight
testing.
That's the premise unders which the quest for the elegant
design is conducted. Minimum parts and risk while
maximizing performance.
If your ov system is functioning right, an OV WARN light
will illuminate one time for a few tens of milliseconds.
If you use a relay that is energized to shut down an
offending system, then one COULD put an OV TRIP annunciator
in parallel with the relay coil. That way, if you DO get
an LV warning, you'll have additional information that
speaks to root cause . . . but it doesn't help you much
in flying the airplane.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Tempermental KT-76A |
I'll 2nd Tim's view. I had a KT-76A that did the same thing and I found
one of the fingers in the tray connector was slightly bent and was the
cause. I replaced that particular spring finger in the tray connector
and had no further problem with the transponder. Cost...less than a
buck for a new spring finger from my avionics shop. This was one of
those "pull your hair out" problems as it was really difficult to see
the bend when you looked at the back of the tray with a flashlight but
when I looked closely I could see that one spring finger didn't look
quite right. Good luck.
Bill
Glasair SIIS-FT
----- Original Message -----
From: Gregory Clawson
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:46 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tempermental KT-76A
I am hoping for some guidance regarding a capricious KT-76A
transponder. It works normally for a while, and then the Mode C cuts
out. I am using a Dynon D-100 for the altitude encoder, then Dynon's
grey-code converter to send the signal to the transponder. All the
physical connections are sound, and the Dynon components are pretty
robust. Any suggestions on where I should start trouble-shooting before
I call the avionics shop guys out to the plane?
Thanks
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
08/16/10 13:35:00
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Tempermental KT-76A |
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Hibbing
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tempermental KT-76A
I'll 2nd Tim's view. I had a KT-76A that did the same thing and I found
one of the fingers in the tray connector was slightly bent and was the
cause. I replaced that particular spring finger in the tray connector
and had no further problem with the transponder. Cost...less than a
buck for a new spring finger from my avionics shop. This was one of
those "pull your hair out" problems as it was really difficult to see
the bend when you looked at the back of the tray with a flashlight but
when I looked closely I could see that one spring finger didn't look
quite right. Good luck.
Bill
Glasair SIIS-FT
----- Original Message -----
From: Gregory Clawson
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:46 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tempermental KT-76A
I am hoping for some guidance regarding a capricious KT-76A
transponder. It works normally for a while, and then the Mode C cuts
out. I am using a Dynon D-100 for the altitude encoder, then Dynon's
grey-code converter to send the signal to the transponder. All the
physical connections are sound, and the Dynon components are pretty
robust. Any suggestions on where I should start trouble-shooting before
I call the avionics shop guys out to the plane?
Thanks
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
08/16/10 13:35:00
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | alexandru Stuparu <stuparu_alexandru_marius(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Tempermental KT-76A |
how can i unsubscribe to this subscription??????
it s urgent...
Stuparu A.
+40.724.53.60.70
________________________________
From: Bill Hibbing <n744bh(at)bellsouth.net>
Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 7:17:10 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tempermental KT-76A
I'll 2nd Tim's view. I had a KT-76A that did the same thing and I found one of
the fingers in the tray connector was slightly bent and was the cause. I
replaced that particular spring finger in the tray connector and had no further
problem with the transponder. Cost...less than a buck for a new spring finger
from my avionics shop. This was one of those "pull your hair out" problems as
it was really difficult to see the bend when you looked at the back of the tray
with a flashlight but when I looked closely I could see that one spring finger
didn't look quite right. Good luck.
Bill
Glasair SIIS-FT
----- Original Message -----
>From: Gregory Clawson
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:46 PM
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tempermental KT-76A
>
>
>I am hoping for some guidance regarding a capricious KT-76A transponder. It
>works normally for a while, and then the Mode C cuts out. I am using a Dynon
>D-100 for the altitude encoder, then Dynon's grey-code converter to send the
>signal to the transponder. All the physical connections are sound, and the
>Dynon components are pretty robust. Any suggestions on where I should start
>trouble-shooting before I call the avionics shop guys out to the plane?
>Thanks
>
>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
________________________________
- Release Date: 08/16/10 13:35:00
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tim Andres" <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | whizzo box dual power wires |
No expert here but I have the same question. I have seen harnesses made by a
pro shop recently and they just run one wire and a short jumper over to the
second pin at the distal end. I'm thinking they want to reduce the load on
the pin, not so much the wire. In some cases like the GRT stuff and some
Garmin the extra pins are to accommodate separate busses and are diode
isolated from one another.
Tim Andres
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of woxofswa
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:51 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: whizzo box dual power wires
In the case of avionics that run dual power wires (supposedly to ease load
in each wire), is it okay to terminate the two wires into a single connector
to attach to c/b or should each have its own connector?
Thanks in advance.
--------
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309120#309120
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
23:35:00
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Turn co-ordinator power plug |
At 10:08 AM 8/17/2010, you wrote:
>Hi Guys
>
>Where is the best place to obtain a replacement 3 pin power plug for
>a standard electric 'Turn Co-ordinator'
I think this is an MS3106E10SL3S
Described in the section beginning on page 167 of
http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Connectors/ITT_Cannon/Military_Aerospace.pdf
Chief Aircraft offers them at:
http://www.chiefaircraft.com/airsec/Aircraft/FlightInstruments/TurnCoordinators.html
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: whizzo box dual power wires |
At 10:51 AM 8/17/2010, you wrote:
>
>In the case of avionics that run dual power wires (supposedly to
>ease load in each wire), is it okay to terminate the two wires into
>a single connector to attach to c/b or should each have its own connector?
Multiple wires in to a single crimp are entirely
acceptable. See:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/multiplewires/multiplewires.html
. . . although you probably don't need to to
to this effort to make sure that two wires get
properly inserted to equally share the wire-grip
space.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Turn co-ordinator power plug |
Hi Bob
That looks like the one: thank you
John
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Turn co-ordinator power plug
At 10:08 AM 8/17/2010, you wrote:
Hi Guys
Where is the best place to obtain a replacement 3 pin power plug for
a standard electric 'Turn Co-ordinator'
I think this is an MS3106E10SL3S
Described in the section beginning on page 167 of
http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Connectors/ITT_Cannon/Military_Aerospac
e.pdf
Chief Aircraft offers them at:
http://www.chiefaircraft.com/airsec/Aircraft/FlightInstruments/TurnCoordi
nators.html
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Who sells 26 gage wire |
| From: | "Geoff Heap" <stol10(at)comcast.net> |
I've tried Assco, Wicks, B&C specialty and Radio shack. I can't believe I can't
find some. I need maybe just one foot. It's for my Dynon ammeter shunt. They
suggest using 26 gage to make fusible links for the two connections. It seems
by far the simplest way to do it if I can find some............Geoff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309161#309161
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Who sells 26 gage wire |
Visit Uncle Ray
http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/accessories.html
Glenn E. Long
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Geoff
Heap
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 4:05 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Who sells 26 gage wire
I've tried Assco, Wicks, B&C specialty and Radio shack. I can't believe
I can't find some. I need maybe just one foot. It's for my Dynon ammeter
shunt. They suggest using 26 gage to make fusible links for the two
connections. It seems by far the simplest way to do it if I can find
some............Geoff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309161#309161
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Tom Hanaway" <tomhanaway(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Who sells 26 gage wire |
Geoff,
I have a spool of it. Send me your address and I'll put a few feet in an
envelope. tomhanaway***at***Comcast.net
Tom Hanaway
RV-10
Boynton Beach, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Geoff
Heap
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 4:05 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Who sells 26 gage wire
I've tried Assco, Wicks, B&C specialty and Radio shack. I can't believe I
can't find some. I need maybe just one foot. It's for my Dynon ammeter
shunt. They suggest using 26 gage to make fusible links for the two
connections. It seems by far the simplest way to do it if I can find
some............Geoff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309161#309161
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Who sells 26 gage wire |
| From: | "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com> |
I couldn't find it either. I ended up with an inline fuse.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309168#309168
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Who sells 26 gage wire |
At 03:04 PM 8/17/2010, you wrote:
>
>I've tried Assco, Wicks, B&C specialty and Radio shack. I can't
>believe I can't find some. I need maybe just one foot. It's for my
>Dynon ammeter shunt. They suggest using 26 gage to make fusible
>links for the two connections. It seems by far the simplest way to
>do it if I can find some............Geoff
go up to 24awg and increase size of
lead wires to 20awg. Where did I call
out 26AWG? That's really hard to find
and I can't imagine calling it out.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Tempermental KT-76A |
At 12:16 PM 8/17/2010, you wrote:
>how can i unsubscribe to this subscription??????
>it s urgent...
>
>
It appears that you are subscribed to every forum
on the Matronics servers. I imagine that your
email load is pretty large. You goto this link
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
and enter your email address in the box,
hit 'uncheck all' and 'subscription' and
then 'execute'.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Who sells 26 gage wire |
At 03:49 PM 8/17/2010, you wrote:
>
>I couldn't find it either. I ended up with an inline fuse.
That works too. But I need to fix the 26AWG callout.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Who sells 26 gage wire |
| From: | Rob Kochman <rv10rob(at)gmail.com> |
The "they" he refers to is Dynon. Their harness is 22 AWG.
FWIW, I don't have any protection on mine.
On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 4:54 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 03:04 PM 8/17/2010, you wrote:
>
>> >
>>
>> I've tried Assco, Wicks, B&C specialty and Radio shack. I can't believe I
>> can't find some. I need maybe just one foot. It's for my Dynon ammeter
>> shunt. They suggest using 26 gage to make fusible links for the two
>> connections. It seems by far the simplest way to do it if I can find
>> some............Geoff
>>
>
> go up to 24awg and increase size of
> lead wires to 20awg. Where did I call
> out 26AWG? That's really hard to find
> and I can't imagine calling it out.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 "Finishing" Kit
Woodinville, WA (near Seattle)
http://kochman.net/N819K
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 9024 module lights, labeling |
| From: | "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
> No, when configured for LV monitoring, the LED flashes
> ONLY while the monitored voltage is less than 13 volts.
> The light goes out by itself if the voltage rises after
> an LV event.
So in an OV event, power to the 9024 module (and LV LED) latches open, preventing
the LV monitoring function from operating?
I would like to have some indication, besides noticing my voltmeter indication
of low voltage, that my stby alt dropped out and that I was now riding on the
battery alone (assuming that I was using the stby alt because my main alt dropped
out) . The AFS EFIS volt meter alarm output can be wired to an LED for that
purpose.
JB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309223#309223
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Who sells 26 gage wire |
At 07:48 PM 8/17/2010, you wrote:
>The "they" he refers to is Dynon. Their harness is 22 AWG.
Okay, use 3A in-line fuses or replace the
22AWG with 20AWG. The fuses are probably
'cleaner'.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Who sells 26 gage wire |
| From: | "Geoff Heap" <stol10(at)comcast.net> |
Correct. "They" are Dynon. Thank you for the advice. I think I prefer Bob's first
suggestion. 20awg leads and 24awg for the link....Geoff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309256#309256
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "glen matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Who sells 26 gage wire |
I also have some to share, but for those still wanting to purchase, try B&B
Aircraft Supply out in Gardner, KS. 913-884-5930. Dan is a great and
helpful guy, and what I have found is that whatever materials he has will
be about the best price you will find. 100 foot rolls of tefzel tend to
run $10...
>Subject: AeroElectric-List:
>From: "Geoff Heap" <stol10(at)comcast.net>
>
>
>I've tried Assco, Wicks, B&C specialty and Radio shack. I can't believe I
can't
>find some. I need maybe just one foot. It's for my Dynon ammeter shunt.
They
>suggest using 26 gage to make fusible links for the two connections. It
seems
>by far the simplest way to do it if I can find some............Geoff
>
>
Glen Matejcek
aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Tray Connectors...A Bad Idea. |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
I am sure the notion of sliding a piece of electronics into a tray with the connector
on the back has some informative design history, but it is a horrible idea
for aircraft (and even cars). In general you should avoid it and replace the
connector with a hanging one where the connections aren't attached to two separately
moving bodies.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309261#309261
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aeroflash power supply |
I suspect this failure is atypical but here is what I learned in case it
helps anyone. This is for a aeroflash 152-0011 power supply with a year
2000 build date. Beside where the 3 strobe wires are soldered to the
circuit board is a T106C1 SCR which switches the trigger signal. My
power supply was not outputting any trigger voltage and I had no voltage
on the anode (center pin) of the SCR. About 3/4" away there were two
330k resistors side by side that divide the 400 volt nominal flash
capacitor voltage in half and then feed the scr and the 330nf trigger
capacitor (blue rectangular cap). The larger 330k resistor (one is half
watt and the other is quarter watt) was found to be open circuited. New
resistor, replace the parts that I removed in the process and all is
well again. There is a trick circuit there as the resistance measured
about as expected when the resistor was in circuit.
As mentioned in another post the trigger transformer was found to be
molded into the 073-0270 flashtube assembly and the power supply only
sends a nominal 175 volt trigger voltage to the flashtube. The tube
flashes when the SCR discharges the 330nf capacitor dropping the
outputted trigger voltage to zero.
Usual Caveats - the large capacitor can carry a 450+ volt fatal charge
even after power is removed from the circuit. Mine bled down to safe
levels in about 10 seconds but yours might not.
Ken
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 08:35 AM 8/16/2010, you wrote:
>>
>> I have a failed Aeroflash 152-0011 double flash strobe power supply.
>> Aeroflash tells me they will not overhaul it as it is older than 5 years.
>>
>> It charges the 50uf 450 volt capacitor. I can hear the trigger fire at
>> about 450 volts, the voltage keeps building and after about 3 audible
>> triggers it shuts down, likely due to overvoltage at about 500 volts.
>> After several seconds the voltage decays and this repeats. There are
>> no trigger pulses to the flash tube at any time. Even with this
>> description, the Aeroflash support tech thinks it is the proprietary
>> photoflash capacitor but I thought I'd ask the list for any thoughts.
>> It seems that the cap charges OK so I was surprised that the
>> technician still thinks it is the capacitor. It seems they have very
>> few failures of any other components. I have not found a circuit
>> diagram and the semiconductors are not marked.
>
> Here's an exemplar flash tube schematic:
>
>
> Emacs!
>
> There are two capacitors involved with getting
> a strobe to flash. One is the fat energy storage
> capacitor . . . the one that gets charged to
> 400+ volts. (C3 in the schematic)
>
> There's another small capacitor (C6 in this schematic)
> that also charges to 440+ volts. This is the
> trigger generator that gets discharged into
> the secondary of a trigger transformer with
> about a 1:30 step-up ratio. The resulting
> 10,000+ volt pulse is simply applied to a wire
> that wraps around the glass envelope of the
> flash-tube. ELECTROSTATIC coupling of the
> trigger pulse through the glass excites the
> xenon gas into conduction whereby and energy
> from the fat capacitor is discharged through
> the gas.
>
> See:
>
> http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_strbfaq.html
>
> What you're describing suggests that the
> power supply is working and the energy storage
> capacitor is charging. What you're probably
> missing is the trigger stimulus.
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Who sells 26 gage wire |
At 07:24 AM 8/18/2010, you wrote:
>
>
>I also have some to share, but for those still wanting to purchase, try B&B
>Aircraft Supply out in Gardner, KS. 913-884-5930. Dan is a great and
>helpful guy, and what I have found is that whatever materials he has will
>be about the best price you will find. 100 foot rolls of tefzel tend to
>run $10...
But 26AWG???? The smallest airframe wire in
general usage for about 70 years has been
22AWG. While 'oversized' for may electrical
situations, this was the smallest gage for
practical application in aircraft wire bundles
intended to be manipulated in the field by
humans with hand tools.
At Raytheon, we jumped into relatively uncharted
waters with Premier I in an effort to reduce
weight and called out a lot of 24AWG wire.
From a bundle assembly perspective, it was
no big deal. But on the assembly line and in
the field, we caught a lot of flak from
the folks who had to work with the stuff.
The complaints have died down . . . as they
will with time and experience but I'd venture
to assert that 24AWG is about the practical
limit for bundles assembled and maintained
with tools and techniques common to the
industry.
I added the fusible link kits to the AEC
catalog a few years back because 24AWG
wire was rarely found in the wilds of
an avionics or airframe repair shop. This
is probably still a relatively rare wire
size. I don't think M22759 even goes down
to 26AWG and the common catalogs like
http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Wire/Standard_Wire_and_Cable/Std_Wire_Cable.pdf
Don't offer it either.
So if it exists in somebody's wire harness,
it's an extra-ordinary material. If it
exists on somebody's drawings, it may be
a figment of their fondest wishes.
Bob . . .
> >Subject: AeroElectric-List:
> >From: "Geoff Heap" <stol10(at)comcast.net>
> >
> >
> >I've tried Assco, Wicks, B&C specialty and Radio shack. I can't believe I
>can't
> >find some. I need maybe just one foot. It's for my Dynon ammeter shunt.
>They
> >suggest using 26 gage to make fusible links for the two connections. It
>seems
> >by far the simplest way to do it if I can find some............Geoff
> >
> >
>Glen Matejcek
>aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
>
>
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>08/17/10 13:35:00
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Tray Connectors...A Bad Idea. |
| From: | Bill Boyd <sportav8r(at)gmail.com> |
Given my experience with an elusive transponder intermittent caused by a
mechanically unsound tray-mounted coax bulkhead connector, I tend to agree
with your assessment. Just not clear on how you achieve this without doing
surgery on the avionics sure to void the warranty. Do you have a how-to on
remoting the connectors on the back of avionis boxes into pigtails, Eric?
I'd like to see how you implement this idea.
-Bill B
On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 8:44 AM, Eric M. Jones wrote:
> emjones(at)charter.net>
>
> I am sure the notion of sliding a piece of electronics into a tray with the
> connector on the back has some informative design history, but it is a
> horrible idea for aircraft (and even cars). In general you should avoid it
> and replace the connector with a hanging one where the connections aren't
> attached to two separately moving bodies.
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones(at)charter.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309261#309261
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David LLoyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aeroflash power supply |
Ken,
...great detail and I for one appreciate your findings and insight.
this will be added to my library as I have buds with similar strobe set-ups.
David
______________________________________
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aeroflash power supply
>
> I suspect this failure is atypical but here is what I learned in case it
> helps anyone. This is for a aeroflash 152-0011 power supply with a year
> 2000 build date. Beside where the 3 strobe wires are soldered to the
> circuit board is a T106C1 SCR which switches the trigger signal. My power
> supply was not outputting any trigger voltage and I had no voltage on the
> anode (center pin) of the SCR. About 3/4" away there were two 330k
> resistors side by side that divide the 400 volt nominal flash capacitor
> voltage in half and then feed the scr and the 330nf trigger capacitor
> (blue rectangular cap). The larger 330k resistor (one is half watt and the
> other is quarter watt) was found to be open circuited. New resistor,
> replace the parts that I removed in the process and all is well again.
> There is a trick circuit there as the resistance measured about as
> expected when the resistor was in circuit.
>
> As mentioned in another post the trigger transformer was found to be
> molded into the 073-0270 flashtube assembly and the power supply only
> sends a nominal 175 volt trigger voltage to the flashtube. The tube
> flashes when the SCR discharges the 330nf capacitor dropping the outputted
> trigger voltage to zero.
>
> Usual Caveats - the large capacitor can carry a 450+ volt fatal charge
> even after power is removed from the circuit. Mine bled down to safe
> levels in about 10 seconds but yours might not.
>
> Ken
>
> Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>> At 08:35 AM 8/16/2010, you wrote:
>>>
>>> I have a failed Aeroflash 152-0011 double flash strobe power supply.
>>> Aeroflash tells me they will not overhaul it as it is older than 5
>>> years.
>>>
>>> It charges the 50uf 450 volt capacitor. I can hear the trigger fire at
>>> about 450 volts, the voltage keeps building and after about 3 audible
>>> triggers it shuts down, likely due to overvoltage at about 500 volts.
>>> After several seconds the voltage decays and this repeats. There are no
>>> trigger pulses to the flash tube at any time. Even with this
>>> description, the Aeroflash support tech thinks it is the proprietary
>>> photoflash capacitor but I thought I'd ask the list for any thoughts. It
>>> seems that the cap charges OK so I was surprised that the technician
>>> still thinks it is the capacitor. It seems they have very few failures
>>> of any other components. I have not found a circuit diagram and the
>>> semiconductors are not marked.
>>
>> Here's an exemplar flash tube schematic:
>>
>>
>> Emacs!
>>
>> There are two capacitors involved with getting
>> a strobe to flash. One is the fat energy storage
>> capacitor . . . the one that gets charged to
>> 400+ volts. (C3 in the schematic)
>>
>> There's another small capacitor (C6 in this schematic)
>> that also charges to 440+ volts. This is the
>> trigger generator that gets discharged into
>> the secondary of a trigger transformer with
>> about a 1:30 step-up ratio. The resulting
>> 10,000+ volt pulse is simply applied to a wire
>> that wraps around the glass envelope of the
>> flash-tube. ELECTROSTATIC coupling of the
>> trigger pulse through the glass excites the
>> xenon gas into conduction whereby and energy
>> from the fat capacitor is discharged through
>> the gas.
>>
>> See:
>>
>> http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_strbfaq.html
>>
>> What you're describing suggests that the
>> power supply is working and the energy storage
>> capacitor is charging. What you're probably
>> missing is the trigger stimulus.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Jasco Alternator and Panel Ground Questions |
| From: | "stearman456" <warbirds(at)shaw.ca> |
I'm brand new around here, still reading Bob's book for the first time, and just
tooling up to wire my Stearman restoration. I have two questions:
1) The wiring diagram available online for it is kinda poor, but can anyone confirm
for me that a 14 v/50 amp Jasco 6555T-1 alternator will work with the B&C
LR3C-14 controller? I think it will but the online alternator schematic is
rather crude.
and
2) If using the B&C firewall bus kit, does the avionics ground bus Bob talks
about (the panel bus) ultimately tie into it?
thanks,
Dan
warbirds(at)shaw.ca
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309320#309320
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Jasco Alternator and Panel Ground Questions |
| From: | Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> |
I believe that the avionics ground bus ties to the B&C with 5 20 gauge
wires. I just happened to be reading that section the other day. I was
wondering though, if I have enough real estate on the larger ground bus, and
all of my avionics are a foot away, should I still use the D-sub bus, or
should I just use the other tabs instead?
On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 6:37 PM, stearman456 wrote:
>
> I'm brand new around here, still reading Bob's book for the first time, and
> just tooling up to wire my Stearman restoration. I have two questions:
>
> 1) The wiring diagram available online for it is kinda poor, but can
> anyone confirm for me that a 14 v/50 amp Jasco 6555T-1 alternator will work
> with the B&C LR3C-14 controller? I think it will but the online alternator
> schematic is rather crude.
>
> and
>
> 2) If using the B&C firewall bus kit, does the avionics ground bus Bob
> talks about (the panel bus) ultimately tie into it?
>
> thanks,
> Dan
> warbirds(at)shaw.ca
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309320#309320
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Jasco Alternator and Panel Ground Questions |
Good Afternoon Dan,
I do not know whether the B&C alternator controller will work or not.
However, the Jasco folks will send you a wiring diagram for your Stearman that
is right up to date. The original Jasco installation on my Stearman was done
when no radio was anticipated. They now have a newer wiring diagram to be
used when a radio is to be installed. I have found the Jasco folks to be
very nice to work with.
Will we see you at Galesburg?
PS The B&C folks are also first class. I would not hesitate to call and
ask them if you do not already have the Jasco Alternator Controller.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
Buzz number 325
In a message dated 8/18/2010 5:40:49 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
warbirds(at)shaw.ca writes:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "stearman456"
I'm brand new around here, still reading Bob's book for the first time,
and just tooling up to wire my Stearman restoration. I have two questions:
1) The wiring diagram available online for it is kinda poor, but can
anyone confirm for me that a 14 v/50 amp Jasco 6555T-1 alternator will work
with the B&C LR3C-14 controller? I think it will but the online alternator
schematic is rather crude.
and
2) If using the B&C firewall bus kit, does the avionics ground bus Bob
talks about (the panel bus) ultimately tie into it?
thanks,
Dan
warbirds(at)shaw.ca
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309320#309320
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Neal George" <n8zg(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Jasco Alternator and Panel Ground Questions |
Dan -
Welcome!
I would expect most any wound-field alternator to play well with the LR3C.
A call to the manufacturer is in order.
If you choose to mount an avionics ground buss, it should tie directly to
the firewall-mounted ground buss.
Neal
-----Original Message-----
I'm brand new around here, still reading Bob's book for the first time, and
just tooling up to wire my Stearman restoration. I have two questions:
1) The wiring diagram available online for it is kinda poor, but can anyone
confirm for me that a 14 v/50 amp Jasco 6555T-1 alternator will work with
the B&C LR3C-14 controller? I think it will but the online alternator
schematic is rather crude.
and
2) If using the B&C firewall bus kit, does the avionics ground bus Bob
talks about (the panel bus) ultimately tie into it?
thanks,
Dan
warbirds(at)shaw.ca
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Vertex VXA700 information needed |
| From: | "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> |
Figured I share information I have about hooking up a handheld Vertex VXA700 to
an audio panel since help form other sources seems to be in short order:
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=81045
This is cable that allows you to use an external PTT switch. You can select a higher
resolution on top right of page.
Here is completed cable and schematic:
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=81445
Ron Parigoris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309347#309347
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Jasco Alternator and Panel Ground Questions |
| From: | "stearman456" <warbirds(at)shaw.ca> |
Thanks for the help, guys. Rereading Bob's book I see now where the Avionics ground
bus does tie to the main ground either with the three 20 gauge or two 14
gauge wires.
Won't see you at Galesburg this year Bob, but maybe in '12.
I'd sure like to use the LR3C-14 after reading about it (besides I already bought
one!) as it looks like an overall simpler installation and comes complete with
the OV protection and low voltage warning.
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309353#309353
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "glen matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | RE: Who sells 26 gage wire |
Hi Bob-
>But 26AWG???? The smallest airframe wire in
>general usage for about 70 years has been
>22AWG.
Which makes 26 AWG perfect for a fusible link, no?
>I added the fusible link kits to the AEC
>catalog a few years back because 24AWG
>wire was rarely found in the wilds of
>an avionics or airframe repair shop... ...So if it exists in somebody's
wire harness,
>it's an extra-ordinary material.
I believe at least some of B&B's business is surplus, and their 100' coils
for sale are pulled off of rather large spools. If I recall correctly, I
have about 99' 6" of the stuff left over...
Glen Matejcek
aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OT starting build |
| From: | Steve Thomas <lists(at)stevet.net> |
Let me offer an alternative view. I just recently had my project certificated,
working through the Van Nuys FSDO. The folks in the Van Nuys office held up
my certification for months, having pulled out of the archives a memo restricting
flights of experimentals from my home airport. The memo had long since been
cancelled, but when I applied for my certification through my DAR, they simply
responded with a "No." They did not offer any alternatives, just ,"No".
They actually told my DAR that I could appeal the decision, but the chances for
a different outcome was nil. I had to engage the National EAA for help, and
two months later, the FSDO finally relented.
Further, the FSDO refused to issue a repairman certificate until I had completed
my 40 hour flight test period, for which they had no authority at all.
My experience indicates that the FSDO is not your friend. Your mileage may vary.
I used the EAA certification packet as well, and, other than a obstinate FSDO,
guided me to a successful certification. I wholeheartedly endorse the EAA packet.
Steve Thomas
________________________________________________________________________
On Aug 19, 2010, at 6:40 AM, DeWitt Whittington wrote:
> Bruce and all,
>
> More than once I've heard reps from our local FSDO urge local builders to contact
their office before starting a project. I don't think there is any regulatory
requirement, just that they have found when the project is finished some
builders are not aware of the proper documentation, records and procedures they
should have followed. They really do want to help. We have a particularly friendly
FSDO office to homebuilders here in Richmond.
>
> Dee
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Thorne" <rv7a(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Alternator putting out too much amperage |
This is a problem I am having that is starting to concern me. I have an
RV7A with the standard Van's internally regulated alternator. My Dynon
D-180 shows that when I am running it is producing 13.6 volts but the
amps can be as high as 42 Amps. I have turned off the strobes and
wig-wags and it will drop a few amps but continues at and excessively
high rate. The battery is a new PC-680 with a full charge. My
questions are this: Will the high amperage fry my radios and EFIS even
though it shows it is only putting out 13.6 volts. Two where do I start
looking for the problem? This is very concerning to me.
Jim Thorne
RV7A CHD
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David & Elaine Lamphere" <dalamphere(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OT starting build |
I had to wait for completion of my 40 hrs also, before the FSDO would give
me my repairman's certificate. The inspector's reason was that there have
been so many experimentals completed but never got to 40 hrs - so why bother
with the paperwork.
After my 40hrs I went to the FSDO office (right near Dulles airport) and
sure enough, the inspector reviewed my paperwork and got me the certificate.
I understand there are a lot of the "other kind" of inspectors, so I guess I
got off rather easily.
Dave
Wittman Tailwind N365DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Thomas" <lists(at)stevet.net>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OT starting build
>
> Let me offer an alternative view. I just recently had my project
> certificated, working through the Van Nuys FSDO. The folks in the Van
> Nuys office held up my certification for months, having pulled out of the
> archives a memo restricting flights of experimentals from my home airport.
> The memo had long since been cancelled, but when I applied for my
> certification through my DAR, they simply responded with a "No." They did
> not offer any alternatives, just ,"No". They actually told my DAR that I
> could appeal the decision, but the chances for a different outcome was
> nil. I had to engage the National EAA for help, and two months later, the
> FSDO finally relented.
>
> Further, the FSDO refused to issue a repairman certificate until I had
> completed my 40 hour flight test period, for which they had no authority
> at all.
>
> My experience indicates that the FSDO is not your friend. Your mileage
> may vary.
>
> I used the EAA certification packet as well, and, other than a obstinate
> FSDO, guided me to a successful certification. I wholeheartedly endorse
> the EAA packet.
>
>
> Steve Thomas
> ________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Alternator putting out too much amperage |
| From: | "George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 505 TRS/DOJ" <Neal.George(at)hurlburt.af.mil> |
Jim -
Have you confirmed with separate instruments of known quality/calibration
that your alternator is in fact making 42-amps at 13.6-vdc?
How do you measure the current? Hall-effect transducer or current shunt?
Are you confident that the measuring device (shunt or HET) is matched to the
display instrument? A 60-amp, 50mv shunt will not interact correctly with a
meter that expects to be paired with a 40-amp, 50mv shunt.
neal
CherokeeJet N9586J
RV-7 N8ZG
-----Original Message-----
This is a problem I am having that is starting to concern me. I have an
RV7A with the standard Van's internally regulated alternator. My Dynon
D-180 shows that when I am running it is producing 13.6 volts but the amps
can be as high as 42 Amps. I have turned off the strobes and wig-wags and
it will drop a few amps but continues at and excessively high rate. The
battery is a new PC-680 with a full charge. My questions are this: Will the
high amperage fry my radios and EFIS even though it shows it is only putting
out 13.6 volts. Two where do I start looking for the problem? This is very
concerning to me.
Jim Thorne
RV7A CHD
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Tray Connectors...A Bad Idea. |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Bill,
I don't have any specific plans, but I've seen the problem and experienced it.
I suppose one could demount the female connector, fasten it to the back of the
avionics box and male connector and add a cannon round connector (or such).
Your mileage may vary.
Eric
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309424#309424
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Who sells 26 gage wire |
At 07:43 AM 8/19/2010, you wrote:
Hi Bob-
>But 26AWG???? The smallest airframe wire in
>general usage for about 70 years has been
>22AWG.
Which makes 26 AWG perfect for a fusible link, no?
Sorta. It's making connections that are problematic.
We already doubled over 24AWG in the red-PIDG
terminals and the insulation grip may not
come down on 26AWG. This is why the shunt extensions
illustrated in the z-figures are electrically "oversized"
and the fusible links are "buffed up" with the
fiberglas sleeving.
>it's an extra-ordinary material.
I believe at least some of B&B's business is surplus, and their 100' coils
for sale are pulled off of rather large spools. If I recall correctly, I
have about 99' 6" of the stuff left over...
I don't doubt that folks do have 26AWG wire
but I don't think it's 22759. It may be some
other, equally suitable wire but it's a good
thing to ask.
In the TC airframe business, smallest wires
are evaluated carefully both for electrical,
mechanical and handling qualities. Largest
wires are too . . . there are a number of
parallel conductors on airplanes to satisfy
electrical design goals for larger fat wires
when more strands of smaller wire were friendlier
to the factory floor and field mechanics.
If one can find the wire and is comfortable with
integrating it into the system . . . have at it!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Alternator putting out too much amperage |
At 12:11 PM 8/19/2010, you wrote:
>Jim -
>
>Have you confirmed with separate instruments of known quality/calibration
>that your alternator is in fact making 42-amps at 13.6-vdc?
>
>How do you measure the current? Hall-effect transducer or current shunt?
>
>Are you confident that the measuring device (shunt or HET) is matched to the
>display instrument? A 60-amp, 50mv shunt will not interact correctly with a
>meter that expects to be paired with a 40-amp, 50mv shunt.
>
>neal
>CherokeeJet N9586J
Good ideas Neal. This does sound like an
instrument calibration/scale-factor problem.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OT starting build |
There is another avenue that can be pursued with finding out what
issues are causing the problem with the FSDO, although it may or may not
take higher level involvement. EAA Tech counselors, and DARs often have
their own personal contacts in the FSDO, or you may be able to find a
FAAST team rep who can go to bat for you with the FSDO. Wearing both
Tech Counselor and FAAST hats I can talk to my FAAST FAA rep, who has an
office in the local FSDO, but works for the regional FSDO. He has the
experience and contacts on the inside to at least get answers, and if
they aren't satisfactory, then you can bring in the big guns. But it
often does work to solve things at the lowest possible level, before
people get their heels dug in defending their position. Especially when
a colleague can gently say to the inspector, you know that memo was
rescinded last year, maybe while you were on vacation. That way everyone
saves face.
Kelly
On 8/19/2010 7:29 AM, Steve Thomas wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Thomas
>
> Let me offer an alternative view. I just recently had my project certificated,
working through the Van Nuys FSDO. The folks in the Van Nuys office held up
my certification for months, having pulled out of the archives a memo restricting
flights of experimentals from my home airport. The memo had long since
been cancelled, but when I applied for my certification through my DAR, they simply
responded with a "No." They did not offer any alternatives, just ,"No".
They actually told my DAR that I could appeal the decision, but the chances
for a different outcome was nil. I had to engage the National EAA for help, and
two months later, the FSDO finally relented.
>
> Further, the FSDO refused to issue a repairman certificate until I had completed
my 40 hour flight test period, for which they had no authority at all.
>
> My experience indicates that the FSDO is not your friend. Your mileage may vary.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OT starting build |
| From: | Steve Thomas <lists(at)stevet.net> |
I certainly appreciate that saving face is a good objective. However, "No" does
not leave much room for maneuvering. I actually contacted several resources
that had some influence with my FSDO and they all told me the same thing. There
was nothing they could do. I even had an inside contact who did not even
know that my problem was eventually resolved. Not real effective communication
even within the office.
I would have loved to have a reasonable situation to work with - it was not to
be.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________
On Aug 19, 2010, at 2:56 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
> There is another avenue that can be pursued with finding out what issues are
causing the problem with the FSDO, although it may or may not take higher level
involvement. EAA Tech counselors, and DARs often have their own personal contacts
in the FSDO, or you may be able to find a FAAST team rep who can go to bat
for you with the FSDO. Wearing both Tech Counselor and FAAST hats I can talk
to my FAAST FAA rep, who has an office in the local FSDO, but works for the
regional FSDO. He has the experience and contacts on the inside to at least get
answers, and if they aren't satisfactory, then you can bring in the big guns.
But it often does work to solve things at the lowest possible level, before
people get their heels dug in defending their position. Especially when a colleague
can gently say to the inspector, you know that memo was rescinded last year,
maybe while you were on vacation. That way everyone saves face.
> Kelly
>
>
> On 8/19/2010 7:29 AM, Steve wrote:
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Thomas
>>
>> Let me offer an alternative view. I just recently had my project certificated,
working through the Van Nuys FSDO. The folks in the Van Nuys office held
up my certification for months, having pulled out of the archives a memo restricting
flights of experimentals from my home airport. The memo had long since
been cancelled, but when I applied for my certification through my DAR, they
simply responded with a "No." They did not offer any alternatives, just ,"No".
They actually told my DAR that I could appeal the decision, but the chances
for a different outcome was nil. I had to engage the National EAA for help,
and two months later, the FSDO finally relented.
>>
>> Further, the FSDO refused to issue a repairman certificate until I had completed
my 40 hour flight test period, for which they had no authority at all.
>>
>> My experience indicates that the FSDO is not your friend. Your mileage may
vary.
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Jasco Alternator and Panel Ground Questions |
At 10:38 PM 8/18/2010, you wrote:
>
>Thanks for the help, guys. Rereading Bob's book I see now where the
>Avionics ground bus does tie to the main ground either with the
>three 20 gauge or two 14 gauge wires.
>
>Won't see you at Galesburg this year Bob, but maybe in '12.
>
>I'd sure like to use the LR3C-14 after reading about it (besides I
>already bought one!) as it looks like an overall simpler
>installation and comes complete with the OV protection and low voltage warning.
That was the design goal for the full line of
B&C alternator controllers. Bill decided that
if a B&C regulator was going to be used that it
include LV warning and OV management. The
$200+ gizmo is three products in one box
already wired up to work together. It was
a descendant of an idea I offered to Cessna
and Beech both back in the 80's . . . but was
not to be until the OBAM aircraft market
matured.
The LR3 will work with the JASCO alternator
just fine. Unlike generators, alternators are
exceedingly tolerant of variability in the
regulation transfer function. I don't think
I've ever encountered an alternator from 40 to
125A that wouldn't work with about any regulator
I drug off the shelf.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Vertex VXA700 information needed |
At 09:13 PM 8/18/2010, you wrote:
>
>
>Figured I share information I have about hooking up a handheld
>Vertex VXA700 to an audio panel since help form other sources seems
>to be in short order:
>http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=81045
>This is cable that allows you to use an external PTT switch. You can
>select a higher resolution on top right of page.
>
>Here is completed cable and schematic:
>http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=81445
Ron, would you scan copies of your schematics
and send them to me? I'd be pleased to post them
to the website. I sucked your posted camera images
into PhotoShop but they were not sufficiently exposed
to pop out the linework.
A paper copy mailed to me or a scanned .jpg/.tiff/.etc
would be better.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Vertex VXA700 information needed |
On 8/19/2010 6:16 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> At 09:13 PM 8/18/2010, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> Figured I share information I have about hooking up a handheld Vertex
>> VXA700 to an audio panel since help form other sources seems to be in
>> short order:
>> http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=81045
>> This is cable that allows you to use an external PTT switch. You can
>> select a higher resolution on top right of page.
>>
>> Here is completed cable and schematic:
>> http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=81445
>
> Ron, would you scan copies of your schematics
> and send them to me? I'd be pleased to post them
> to the website. I sucked your posted camera images
> into PhotoShop but they were not sufficiently exposed
> to pop out the linework.
>
> A paper copy mailed to me or a scanned .jpg/.tiff/.etc
> would be better.
>
> Bob . . .
Bob,
Did you try the higher res image? I couldn't see the small one, but the
hi res version was readable, at least on my screen.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net> |
Greetings,
I just tried to reply to a message and it was rejected by matronics
because it didn't have a "plain text section". Any one else having a
problem? I have posted and replied many times. I think it might be a
problem at matronics.
--
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Vertex VXA700 information needed |
At 07:15 PM 8/19/2010, you wrote:
>
>
>
>Did you try the higher res image? I couldn't see the small one, but
>the hi res version was readable, at least on my screen.
Missed that. Thanks! I think it will work for
me. Will fiddle with it a bit in the morning.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jim Leyden" <jndleyden(at)comcast.net> |
That particular Terminal Feed Through Connector is only rated 250A @48VDC.
You would probably be better served purchasing the 400A @48VDC version from
Blue Sea Systems.
http://bluesea.com/products/2206
They also carry both Black and Red and they are identical to the ones on
Ebay except in a larger amperage rating and slightly larger physical size. I
wouldn't be surprised if they were cheaper from Blue Sky either. $11/each
seems kinda pricey to me.
Jim
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
RGent1224(at)aol.com
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery cables
Check this solution out I'll be using them when the time comes
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Red-3-8-Stud-Type-Junction-Block-_W0QQcmdZVie
wItemQQitemZ350377856912QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
They also have black
Dick
In a message dated 8/5/2010 3:34:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
dougshep(at)netzero.com writes:
I'm building an RV-9A with an Eggenfellner Subaru E6 engine. I will be
mounting my batteries in the tailcone of the AC, and will have to route the
power cables (probably two #6 wire size with terminals) fwd to the firewall.
Since I have an all metal AC, how do I terminate this large cable on the
firewall (aft side), with connecting cables, going fwd to the starter and
also to the instr panel? Haven't been able to find any type of an insulated
standoff for this. Can you recommend something?
Also, where can I get a schematic for the Wig-Wag circuit so I can interface
to it?
===================================
List
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
===================================
ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
===================================
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Vertex VXA700 information needed |
| From: | rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us |
Hi Bob
If the higher resolution is still unacceptable, let me know
andI can e-mail you an even higher resolution photo.
Ron
Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com> |
> I just tried to reply to a message and it was rejected by matronics
> because it didn't have a "plain text section". Any one else having a
> problem? > --
> Raymond Julian
> Kettle River=2C MN
Ray=2C
I had this same problem a couple of years ago. I had DSL then=2C Hughesn
et now.
That's the only change. The problem seems to have gone away with Hughesnet
=2C
I have NO idea why.
For some reason=2C Matronics does not like the "Rich Text" feature in ema
ils. All
of your emails will be returned when you type them in rich text mode. (Rich
text
is where you can add color=2C size=2C emoticons=2C etc to your text)
Plain text (boring as it is) allows the emails=2C responses=2C etc to wor
k ok.
It's odd that a different server=2C like Hughesnet=2C doesn't seem to bot
her Matronics
when I use the rich text.
Mike Welch
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Vertex VXA700 information needed |
Hi Ron.
Comment 1: I would recommend a 1N4007 diode snubber across the relay coil
in your PTT circuit. I'm not sure of the internal circuitry to the PM4000,
but this should eliminate any problems.
Comment 2: This whole circuit should work without the relay, with direct
connections between the VXA700 and PM4000. Is there a reason that you added
the relay? I have a VXA700 connected to my audio system and have not
experienced any problems. Is there something I'm missing?
Thanks for sharing this.
Vern
--------------------------------------------------
From: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 7:13 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Vertex VXA700 information needed
>
>
> Figured I share information I have about hooking up a handheld Vertex
> VXA700 to an audio panel since help form other sources seems to be in
> short order:
> http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=81045
> This is cable that allows you to use an external PTT switch. You can
> select a higher resolution on top right of page.
>
> Here is completed cable and schematic:
> http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=81445
>
> Ron Parigoris
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309347#309347
>
>
>
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> 18:35:00
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Plane Power IR Alternator Implementation in Z-13/8 |
| From: | Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> |
I'm thinking about using one of these as the belt driven alternator in
Z-13/8:
http://www.plane-power.com/AL12-EI60.htm
It's their experimental, internally regulated alternator that also comes
with built in crowbar over voltage protection. I'm not sure that I have a
full understanding of the OV protection and control issues of IR alternators
and how they pertain to this unit.
I have 3 primary questions- one for the AEC and two for Plane Power, though
I welcome any insight about all three from the AEC readers.
So first, is it correct to say that Z24, Z24A, and the associated text on
page Z-5 apply to IR alternators as they come off of the auto parts shelf,
and not really to this unit?
Based on their conceptual wiring picture here:
http://www.plane-power.com/images/AL12_EI60%20Installation.pdf
Primary Question 1: How would I make the wiring connections in Z13/8 with
this unit? Should their field enable lead go to the 2-3 DC Power Master
Switch with the 5A crowbar in the same place as Z13/8 depicts it? Also,
what about that other optional alternator off lead (see 3 below)?
I think I understand that the battery dump issue (described at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Adapting_IR_Alternators_to_Aircraft.pdf)
is
a problem in Z13/8 because we would like to occasionally (preflight, first
flight of the day, etc?) turn the primary alternator and master off, and
turn the ebus alternate feed on to test those associated switching systems.
Is that correct?
Primary Question 2: Will it do any physical damage to anything to turn off
the 2-3 DC Power Master Switch while the engine is running (assuming that I
need to)?
Primary Question 3: Does opening their Alternator Field Enable Switch fully
shut down the alternator field? If the crowbar protection circuit pops that
5A CB, I should hope that opening that switch would completely shut down the
alternator field too. If so, then what does that other "optional alternator
off" lead do? Would I need to hook it up at all, and/or would I need to
still hook it up with a switch in the line? Is there a failure mode in the
other circuit that would require me to turn off a switch in the second line
to shut the alternator off?
I was going to call plane power to ask them a few of these questions but I
need to make sure that I know what to ask about. Thanks in advance.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: OT starting build |
Oh man. It's hard to believe that this is still going on at VNY FSDO.
About 5 years ago, I walked in there with an experimental airworthiness
certificate and a set of operating limitations which read "Day VFR only"
and had no paragraph on how to manage major modifications. I requested a
new set of oplims with the current wording so that I could install a
wing leveler and IFR equipment. This should be a 30 minute job. At the
end of the week, when I called to confirm our appointment to hand over
the new oplims, I was informed that flights of any experimental aircraft
were not allowed at WHP, VNY, BUR or SBA. I said "Excuse me? Are you
telling me that our airplane, which had it's 1st flight at WHP and has
been operating continuously there since, along with about 50 other
homebuilts are not legal?" I got off the phone and called EAA. Their
point man offered to call and talk to the airworthiness inspector and
did. I finally got my new certificate and oplims in the middle of the
next week. As soon as I reported to EAA that I had the papers in hand,
they took it up with the FAA in DC, and within a couple of weeks, a new
memo was issued from DC, clarifying the issue (I thought). This is the
first I've heard that the dreaded VNY memo is still rearing it's ugly hea
d.
By the way, my airworthiness inspector was so clueless that I had to
point him to the FAA website for the correct wording for the oplims and
pretty much had to write them myself for their approval.
Steve, at what airport are you based and which DAR did you use?
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
RV-6A
RV-6 (under construction)
Steve Thomas wrote:
>
>
> I certainly appreciate that saving face is a good objective. However,
"No" does not leave much room for maneuvering. I actually contacted seve
ral resources that had some influence with my FSDO and they all told me t
he same thing. There was nothing they could do. I even had an inside co
ntact who did not even know that my problem was eventually resolved. Not
real effective communication even within the office.
>
> I would have loved to have a reasonable situation to work with - it was
not to be.
>
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________________________________
_
>
>
> On Aug 19, 2010, at 2:56 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
>
ng.com>
>>
>> There is another avenue that can be pursued with finding out what issu
es are causing the problem with the FSDO, although it may or may not take
higher level involvement. EAA Tech counselors, and DARs often have their
July 25, 2010 - August 20, 2010
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-jq