AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-kc

February 05, 2011 - February 13, 2011



          philosophy for icing encounters should have
          you breathing easier in a much shorter
          period of time . . . and probably before
          the pitot tube ices over.
      
          The pitot tube is but one of MANY potential
          victims for ice accretion. Knowing the
          true value of IAS is of little value when
          the airplane wont fly well at any achievable
          IAS.
      
          Hooking your heater up to provide 1/4th the
          design value for deicing energy is a whistle
          in the dark when you need a good flashlight!
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 05, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Icom A210 Wiring Q..
At 11:14 AM 2/5/2011, you wrote: >Hello Chris > >I have recently installed a A210 in my Kitfox. I just wired in a >push button switch (like a PTT) to the intercom switch wires. One >push and it either connects or disconnects the intercom. Works great >for a noisy cockpit like mine. So if I interpret your words correctly, this button is a push-enable/push-disable control for the intercom. An when the intercom is enabled, it functions as the legacy voice-activated intercom with adjustable squelch levels. Does this sound right? Thanks! Good data point. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Heated pitot Question
Date: Feb 05, 2011
Peter; You could do that if you wish but you will be generating only =BC of the designed wattage. While this low level of heat might provide some protection you must remember that the wind-chill effect is considerable and that while it may be too hot to touch on the bench, when flying it may only be slightly warm. True values of 4 amps @ 14 volts provides just under 60 watts of heat (56) whereas on 28 volts you will get close to 230 watts , a significant difference. The manufacturer obviously considered it prudent to provide over 200 watts and =BC of that may not be adequate to accomplish much of anything. It would be your call to decide if it=92s worth it. A properly functioning pitot tube heating on the bench is not only too hot to touch, but will come close to branding you. Bob McC _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Mather Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 1:32 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Heated pitot Question I=92ve got a heated pitot off a C182 (28V) that I want to use on a Tailwind I=92m building (www.tailwindbuild.blogspot.com). Originally I assumed that I would not bother with the heater as the aircraft will not be used for IFR (not allowed for experimentals in the UK) and will have a 14V electrical system. But, as an experiment, I wired the pitot up to my bench supply and at 14V it pulls 4amps and gets too hot to touch. Is there any reason not to just wire it off the 14V supply? At 50W+ of heat it presumably is better than nothing? Thanks Peter ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 05, 2011
Subject: Re: Icom A210 Wiring Q..
From: Don Hudgeon <don(at)hudgeon.com>
Hello Bob That`s right. First I had a ordinary off/on toggle switch, but I found that it had to toggled both ways each time in order to activate or deactivate the intercom. Now I just push the switch once. I mounted the switch up next to the radio so either side can activate. For my noisy cockpit I have the intercom shut off always unless conversing with a passenger. It is also possible to connect/disconnect on the radio but this requires finding the function on the menu. Switch,much more convenient. Cheers Don On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> > > At 11:14 AM 2/5/2011, you wrote: > >> Hello Chris >> >> I have recently installed a A210 in my Kitfox. I just wired in a push >> button switch (like a PTT) to the intercom switch wires. One push and it >> either connects or disconnects the intercom. Works great for a noisy cockpit >> like mine. >> > > So if I interpret your words correctly, this button > is a push-enable/push-disable control for the intercom. > An when the intercom is enabled, it functions as the > legacy voice-activated intercom with adjustable squelch > levels. Does this sound right? > > Thanks! Good data point. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: terminate shielded cables in Sub D
From: "Ianrat" <ianrat(at)powerup.com.au>
Date: Feb 05, 2011
I have to run about 5 separate shielded wire back into a Sub D plug. What is the best way to connect all of the shields together as the have to go to only one pin. Should they soldered together and then only one lead to the pin. Thank you. Ianrat CH601XLB Brisbane Australia Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329806#329806 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 05, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: terminate shielded cables in Sub D
At 09:48 PM 2/5/2011, you wrote: > >I have to run about 5 separate shielded wire back into a Sub D plug. >What is the best way to connect all of the shields together as the >have to go to only one pin. Should they soldered together and then >only one lead to the pin. Yes, see http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/pigtail/pigtail.html Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 05, 2011
Subject: Re: wire squash connections
From: Franz Fux <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com>
Hi I have Gentex H33 helmet that I would like to convert from mono to stereo to fit the newly installed PM3000. Does anybody know if such conversion kits exists or are there any companies that could help me out Thanks for your help Franz ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 05, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Icom A210 Wiring Q..
At 05:13 PM 2/5/2011, you wrote: >Hello Bob > >That`s right. First I had a ordinary off/on toggle switch, but I >found that it had to toggled both ways each time in order to >activate or deactivate the intercom. Now I just push the switch >once. I mounted the switch up next to the radio so either side can >activate. For my noisy cockpit I have the intercom shut off always >unless conversing with a passenger.. It is also possible to >connect/disconnect on the radio but this requires finding the >function on the menu. Switch,much more convenient. Great data point. I which the manual was more clear on this. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Don" <dsvs(at)ca.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Low resistance measurement adapter.
Date: Feb 05, 2011
Bob, Are these shipping yet? From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 4:11 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Low resistance measurement adapter. At 05:20 PM 1/26/2011, you wrote: Bob; I'd be interested in the device. I have orders for several. You can join them at: https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/AECcatalog.html Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: terminate shielded cables in Sub D
From: "Ianrat" <ianrat(at)powerup.com.au>
Date: Feb 05, 2011
Brilliant! That is exactly what i need. That is why i like this forum I have booked mark your site for further investigation. Thank you Ianrat CH601XLB Brisbane Australia Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329819#329819 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 06, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Low resistance measurement adapter.
At 10:51 PM 2/5/2011, you wrote: >Bob, Are these shipping yet? Pretty soon. Dr. Dee and I and the rest of the family have been under the weather and under the WX. All the parts are in and on the bench right now. Present trends plotted into the future say I can get to them tomorrow night. You guys kind of swamped me. I ordered parts for 10 thinking I might sell 3 or 4. I've got orders for eight. It's a good and bad thing . . . but I'm delighted that so many folks are interested in expanding their bag-of-tricks for the investigation and understanding of how things work and why things don't work! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 06, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: terminate shielded cables in Sub D
At 12:14 AM 2/6/2011, you wrote: > >Brilliant! > >That is exactly what i need. >That is why i like this forum > >I have booked mark your site for further investigation. Pleased to be of service sir. Please bring any future questions to the List. There's a bunch of brothers here willing to help . . . and please pass the word to others in your part of the world. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)
From: Robert Mitchell <rmitch1(at)hughes.net>
Date: Feb 06, 2011
Here is a mind boggling idea, glass solar highways, with built in signage an d no asphalt. Should try this on airport runways first. Bob Mitchell L-320 > : Solar Highways > > > > Now this is really "out of the box thinking".; > > Talk about an interesting idea! fascinating concept. > > > > http://www.wimp.com/solarhighways/ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 06, 2011
From: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)
OUCH!- Mind boggling is right.- -Think the roads get slick now when i t rains?- A =0Alittle oil from the cars, a little rain, and it would make ICE look like your =0Afriend.=0A=0AI think I will pass on this one, especi ally on airport runways.- Its those =0Aunintended consequences that will get you every time.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Robert Mitchell =0ATo: "Aeroelectric-List(at)Matronics. Co m" =0ASent: Sun, February 6, 2011 2:18:54 PM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)=0A=0A=0AHe re is a mind boggling idea, glass solar highways, with built in signage and no =0Aasphalt. -Should try this on airport runways first.=0ABob Mitchell =0AL-320=0A=0A: Solar Highways=0A>>-=0A>>Now this is- really "out of th e box thinking".; =0A>>Talk- about an interesting idea!- fascinating co ncept.--- =0A>>-=0A>>http://www.wimp.com/solarhighways/=0A>=0A =0A 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EMAproducts(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 06, 2011
Subject: Pitot Heat
Bob, as a 25000+ pilot and a CFI for nearly 50 years the advice you give below is the best info I've seen on any of the websites~~I tell people to turn our AOA system off if they are in icing, why have an instrument give you a bad indication~ I will never heat a vane unless the plane is approved for flight in icing conditions. Elbie Mendenhall EM aviation _www.riteangle.com_ (http://www.riteangle.com) Any time you even THINK you've gathered some ice, the prudent action is to take immediate measures to get out . . . 180 turn, change altitude, etc. This (or a similar) philosophy for icing encounters should have you breathing easier in a much shorter period of time . . . and probably before the pitot tube ices over. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 06, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)
At 03:45 PM 2/6/2011, you wrote: >OUCH! Mind boggling is right. Think the roads get slick now when >it rains? A little oil from the cars, a little rain, and it would >make ICE look like your friend. > >I think I will pass on this one, especially on airport runways. Its >those unintended consequences that will get you every time. Clearly, there are many details begging for further attention. I was disappointed too that so much whoopie-do was given to signage, etched circuit boards, weight sensors, microprocessors and other gee-whizzies. They did acknowledge the demands placed on a roadway by 18-wheelers traveling at highway speeds. Yes, the planet is blessed with a lot of silicon dioxide but crafting it into a material with suitable resistance to damage due to flexure under loading, a road surface with coefficients of friction equal to or better than asphalt, and still remain friendly to the task of housing photo-cells is a daunting one. I am reminded of the main street of my little cow/wheat/oil-town. It's paved in bricks. Many pushing 100 years old. The maintenance guys can pull them up, dig up and fix problematic pipes, and put them back down again. Would our roads and highways become paved with glass bricks that not only carry the weight of vehicles but generate electricity too? Golly, local roadway jurisdictions could sell advertising. Not only could a roadway light up to define its boundaries, it could pitch laundry soap and life insurance. It's a siren song looking for the support of some simple-ideas. Maybe you could buy cars with built in pop-up blockers. Still another source of revenue for somebody. I'll suggest there's a still greater challenge. Forget the photocells for the moment. Suppose you had an array of . . . AA alkaline cells on 3" centers 22' wide and 5280 feet long . . . one mile of 'roadway'. That's about 1.8 million cells that produce 1.0 to 1.5 volts of EMF and current levels MUCH greater than a 9 square inch photo voltaic and about 3x the voltage to boot. Now, how to hook them up? Series-parallel to what voltage/current level? The simple-idea in power distribution that doomed T.A. Edison's wildest dreams was LINE LOSSES. DC has to be generated at the voltage it is sold at. http://edison.rutgers.edu/power.htm http://www.ieeeghn.org/wiki/index.php/Edison%27s_Electric_Light_and_Power_System I saw a map of Edison's power generating system for a neighborhood of N.Y. He had to have generating facilities every few blocks. The second article speaks to a "Three wire distribution" system to save on copper (and thus minimize losses). This had to be a +120/0/-120 distribution where the ground leg current was ideally offset to zero by managing loads for equal current flow in the two "hot" legs. A forerunner of our modern 120/0/120 VAC system for large, single phase appliances. So back to our solar roads. At what point does it become most efficient to take all the DC coming off the road, run it through an inverter and boost to voltage levels conducive to efficient distribution? How may INVERTERS PER MILE are called for? How does one manage variable loads by the various customers . . . one could funnel generated electricity to a single town by taxing all that was available from the nearest surrounding roads. But at night, or after a big snowfall, that goes to zero. Filling in the no-sun gaps would require just as large an over-head system as we have in place today. Since system reliability is inversely proportional to parts count, what kind of reliability numbers might we hope for with what might amount to a hundred million inverters and 200 trillion photocells being run over routinely by cars and dump trucks. Gee, those number roll right off the tongue really easy . . . I might be missing a good career in politics. The video might impress some politicians being petitioned for a dip into the taxpayer's pockets but it's not clear to me that this 'idea' has any more merit in the hard cold cruel realities that face any supplier of utilities be it electricity, natural gas, or water. http://www.bwea.com/ukwed/index.asp http://www.windturbinesyndrome.com/news/2010/denmark-turning-against-wind-turbines-uk/ Then there's the matter of 'upkeep'. See: http://webecoist.com/2009/05/04/10-abandoned-renewable-energy-plants/ There's something rather profound about the probability of success for any new technology. If it's spins up with risk investor dollars, failure to produce a profit will effect a just and timely shutdown of the effort before $much$ is wasted. Losses are keep to a minimum. Further, the money wasted was provided by individuals who presumably knew that there was risk and were willing/able to assume it. When the technology is brought to the market on the back of taxpayer subsidy, then there are no clear and profound boundaries to define the point were a bad idea is euthanized. The source of funds is from individuals who have no knowledge of how their money is being spent and they have no choice as to whether to accept or reject the opportunity to accept the risk. Further, the losses can go on for a very long time with little or no public notice. At least in aviation, the bad ideas eventually catch up with all the pilots willing to fly them . . . the problem is self-correcting. Wonder if the EPA will be as demanding of wind- farmers as they are on coal-miners. Will the builders of abandoned or played out 'green' resources be returned to their natural, pristine states or will we need another super-fund to gather up all that junk and get the bases out of the ground? I wonder how deep those things go. Color me skeptical. Aviation has been blessed with a relatively benign 'touch' by regulators . . . although it is getting worse. The development side has remained free to exploit public will and imagination. This is something we can thank the Wright brothers for. We've enjoyed a huge benefit to the DIY aviation arts and sciences that did NOT originate as the work-product of a taxpayer funded/subsidized effort. This relatively 'open source' environment has built a rich history of recipes for failure to avoid and recipes for success to exploit. Our friends soldering arrays of photo-cells and LEDs together under sheets of glass would be well advised to dig through the archives on Westinghouse, Edison, Tesla, and countless others who would help them put their task into real world perspective. Some of the engineers on their team should be excited about the study of simple-ideas that govern power distribution and the economics of marketing that power. The fact that sand is so plentiful and cheap doesn't necessarily make it the ultimate solution for keeping our roads flat AND our microwaves turning out soggy pizza. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 06, 2011
From: David <ainut(at)knology.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)
spoilsport. Wonder if the road could keep itself clear of ice and snow over time. and so on. David Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 03:45 PM 2/6/2011, you wrote: >> OUCH! Mind boggling is right. Think the roads get slick now when >> it rains? A little oil from the cars, a little rain, and it would >> make ICE look like your friend. >> >> I think I will pass on this one, especially on airport runways. Its >> those unintended consequences that will get you every time. > > Clearly, there are many details begging for > further attention. I was disappointed too that > so much whoopie-do was given to signage, etched > circuit boards, weight sensors, microprocessors > and other gee-whizzies. They did acknowledge the > demands placed on a roadway by 18-wheelers traveling > at highway speeds. > > Yes, the planet is blessed with a lot of silicon > <<>> > > -- If you're an American, just say NO to the Obamanation, to socialism, and get rid of Soros. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 06, 2011
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Shorai LiFePO4
There is lots of info on how great these things are and little on the downside. Unfortunately the following link makes the chemistry sound unsuitable for an airplane. manuals.hobbico.com/hca/lifesource-manual-v2.pdf Ken On 1/31/2011 12:16 PM, Jan de Jong wrote: > > > Check out "Shorai". > New light weight Japanese LiFePO4 battery with quite enthousiastic > motorcyclist customers. > Works well enough at low temperatures. > Max. charging current 18A (no external shunts). Higher ratings coming. > Has a 5 pin plug that I suspect may give access to the 4 cells. > For our use I might want to monitor max. cell voltage to see <4V or > interrupt charging. > > Cheers, > Jan de Jong > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 06, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Pitot Heat
At 04:55 PM 2/6/2011, you wrote: >Bob, as a 25000+ pilot and a CFI for nearly 50 years the advice you >give below is the best info I've seen on any of the websites~~I tell >people to turn our AOA system off if they are in icing, why have an >instrument give you a bad indication~ I will never heat a vane >unless the plane is approved for flight in icing conditions. >Elbie Mendenhall I've been chided for being too negative about this topic. There's a relatively popular notion that, "a little bit of insurance is better than no insurance." But my teachers and a simple observation of cause/effect of too many accidents encourages me not to relax on this stance. My own experience with ice was a single event and with an instructor on board who KNEW we were collecting. I was so busy being a whippy IMC pilot that I didn't notice. The procedures and approach were textbook. But the airplane fell out of the flare like a rock. We'd gathered about 1/2" x 3/4" ridge of ice on the stagnation point of the leading edge which markedly changed the flying characteristics of the wing. Nothing on the windshield. But he calculated later that we'd picked up perhaps 10-20 pounds of ice on all leading edges. IAS was working fine, I'd probably lost some prop efficiency but that wasn't tested because I didn't need to do a go-around. My instructor told me he had planned to have me do a missed approach decided that what he was witnessing outside was as much additional risk as he was willing to burden our airplane. Could that same amount of ice contributed to the well understood SERIES OF CONDITIONS that lead up to the majority of accidents? Something I was NOT then smart enough to NOT to test . . . but my instructor was. It was years later that I came to the realization that I COULD have been a fresh holder of an instrument rating, I COULD have experienced a go-around event, which would have put me back into that cloud layer for 10-15 minutes. While I was grinning ear-to-ear, keeping all the controllers happy and the needles centered up, the amount of ice on the wings for second approach might have been another matter entirely. He confided in me that a real missed approach condition would have called for a climb through the cloud layer followed by a return to Wichita . . . NOT a second whack at the attempt. That airplane DID have a pitot heater and I'm sure it was ON. But other things were stacking up in a way that told my instructor that the duration of THIS particular lesson was going to be cut short. As a tech writer at Cessna I got to write the POH and maintenance manual sections for electrically heated props, de-ice boots, heated windshield patches, and yes, heated pitot tubes. After all that prose and poetry about how things were suppose to work (and would most of the time), the proper advice to pilots was, "No matter what kind of ice you're in RIGHT now, you have no way to know what the ice is like 5 miles ahead. Yes, do turn on all the insurance you can muster and get the hell out of there." I've watched ice gathering on the leading edge of an engine nacelle on a 727 in climb-out. After about 30 seconds and perhaps 1/2 inch of build up, I was just starting to worry about it. It suddenly disappeared in a flash of vapor. Now THAT is what I call de-icing! Unless the machine you fly is similarly equipped . . . well . . . what else needs to be said? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terry Watson" <terry(at)tcwatson.com>
Subject: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)
Date: Feb 06, 2011
Thanks Bob & the original poster for this interesting little diversion. Let me add to it with this link: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/making-stuff-cleaner.html It's to a PBS Nova program last week, part 3 of a 4 part series loosely classified as materials science. This particular issue includes an interesting segment with our own Bill Dube and his Killocycle zero to sixty in 1 second electric motorcycle, plus other interesting speculation about new energy technologies. I also appreciate Bob's comments about the economics of innovative ideas. It often strikes me that the biggest stumbling block to getting new ideas to market is the government. If they aren't pushing ethanol or wind power fiascos, they are regulating other ideas into oblivion. Terry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 06, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)
>I also appreciate Bob's comments about the economics of innovative ideas. It >often strikes me that the biggest stumbling block to getting new ideas to >market is the government. If they aren't pushing ethanol or wind power >fiascos, they are regulating other ideas into oblivion. It's easy to find fault with government. They are after all the most visible practitioners of the the art of wishing, writing it down, making it law and decreeing that. "yeah verily, it shall be so." We bemoan the drag on truly innovative and useful efforts . . . but they have the same effects on the not-so-useful endeavors too. The true test of an idea is conducted in the free- market exchange of value where both individuals of every exchange walks away thinking that THEY got the better part of the deal. BOTH exchange something they valued less for something they valued more. The experiment to be repeated is with dozens, hundreds or millions of such exchanges. This demonstrates the economics of that exchange. LOTS of folks choosing to make the trade can at least put down a milestone for a fad (hula hoops and pet rocks). Carry it out for years, decades or centuries (hard drives and 16-penny nails) and we can say with confidence that the producers are adding good value to the lives of their fellow citizens. The vast majority of all new businesses fail in the first five years . . . and they were doing that before the regulators decided to offer so much 'help'. This is the result of the market place making a value decision on whether or not to spend its money on a particular product. How many kit or plans-built airplanes have gone TU or never got into production? What made and RV stand out over say a Thorp? Both are great performing, all metal airplanes. But they're certainly marketed differently. Take a look at the list of experimental airplanes here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_experimental_aircraft Many of those made it to production but not based on the personal desires and expendable resources of the end user. Governments can spend what ever they want to get certain performance goals. This is not free-market exchange. I looked for a listing of amateur-built designs but couldn't find one . . . but my recollection is that there are certainly hundreds of designs or proposed designs that never flew, only a handful were built, etc. Why? Because the free-market customer (you guys) were looking for a good performing alternative to what a C-172 could do for you. Hopefully at a fraction of the cost and minimum of regulatory busy-work that only serves to drive up cost of ownership. Further, it was a POWERFUL incentive to buy if that experiment had been successfully repeated for years and hundreds of experiences. It takes more than a "better mousetrap" to bring people to your door. It takes an end-to-end understanding and skill for what's necessary to conceive, develop, produce, market and support any successful product. If John Thorp had both the vision and drive possessed by Richard VanGrunsven, then perhaps many of you would be working on T-22s and 24s instead of RV8s and 10s. The fact that any regulatory agency chooses to inject itself between suppliers and consumers only serves to drive up costs of acquisition/ownership for any particular commodity. When those costs take the glow off of a desire for ownership, the future for that commodity is damaged. Intervention in the free market can sour the economics of a good idea and artificially bolster the status of mediocre or even bad product. There MAY come a day when the cost of electricity from legacy energy sources will be so high that wind-power begins to make sense . . . else the lights go out. But right now, trying to push wind-power into what used to be a really reliable, low-cost commodity market has done nothing but drive up the costs of that commodity while wasting $billions$ in funds that could be better spent elsewhere. Present trends plotted into the future say that our own bastion of technological and philosophical freedom will come under increasing attack. I really think the only reason it has taken so long is because we (the OBAM aviation community) is so tiny a proportion of the population. But without a change in course, our time is coming. The EPA could decree tomorrow that non-commercial flight after a certain date be done with electric propulsion. And what's to stop them? How many of our fellow citizens would feel compelled to rise in protest of our plight? Maybe we could get Congress to accept a bargain: "Hey guys, we'll go to all electric airplanes as soon as the first 100 miles of photo-voltaic, glass highway goes into service. Oh yeah, we'll need photo-voltaic landing strips every 100 miles or so to stop and recharge the batteries." Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Mather" <peter(at)mather.com>
Subject: Pitot Heat
Date: Feb 07, 2011
Bob, Bob and Elbie Thanks for your comments - On this basis I'll save the wire, switch and weight and just use the pitot unheated. Makes you wonder why so many of the production aircraft have heated pitots and no other ice protection. Best Regards Peter From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of EMAproducts(at)aol.com Sent: 06 February 2011 21:56 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Pitot Heat Bob, as a 25000+ pilot and a CFI for nearly 50 years the advice you give below is the best info I've seen on any of the websites~~I tell people to turn our AOA system off if they are in icing, why have an instrument give you a bad indication~ I will never heat a vane unless the plane is approved for flight in icing conditions. Elbie Mendenhall EM aviation www.riteangle.com Any time you even THINK you've gathered some ice, the prudent action is to take immediate measures to get out . . . 180 turn, change altitude, etc. This (or a similar) philosophy for icing encounters should have you breathing easier in a much shorter period of time . . . and probably before the pitot tube ices over. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com>
Subject: Re: Pitot Heat
Date: Feb 07, 2011
But then, if one has a 'Gretz' heated pitot tube, which powers the heating automatically, and give a indication as such on the panel - should therefore be a good 'icing' indicator as well John (RV9a-wings) ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Mather To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 8:58 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Pitot Heat Bob, Bob and Elbie Thanks for your comments - On this basis I'll save the wire, switch and weight and just use the pitot unheated. Makes you wonder why so many of the production aircraft have heated pitots and no other ice protection. Best Regards Peter From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of EMAproducts(at)aol.com Sent: 06 February 2011 21:56 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Pitot Heat Bob, as a 25000+ pilot and a CFI for nearly 50 years the advice you give below is the best info I've seen on any of the websites~~I tell people to turn our AOA system off if they are in icing, why have an instrument give you a bad indication~ I will never heat a vane unless the plane is approved for flight in icing conditions. Elbie Mendenhall EM aviation www.riteangle.com Any time you even THINK you've gathered some ice, the prudent action is to take immediate measures to get out . . . 180 turn, change altitude, etc. This (or a similar) philosophy for icing encounters should have you breathing easier in a much shorter period of time . . . and probably before the pitot tube ices over. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Listhttp://forums.matroni cs.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 07, 2011
From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl>
Subject: Re: Shorai LiFePO4
Hi Ken, Re http://manuals.hobbico.com/hca/lifesource-manual-v2.pdf It sure sounds ominous. Let me think of some reasons why it may be too ominous. - the hobbico batteries regularly crash to earth - it is part of their job (in a real airplane a battery would crash at most once and even then be more protected as part of a larger object; thanks to its light weight it may well stay in its designated place too; if it is not physically damaged there is no danger; the chemistry needs more than 900 'C to burn) - the hobbico batteries are composed of random cells of the same manufacture (the Shorai battery cells may be designed/manufactured/selected to be part of the same battery) - the hobby user may be suspected of not appreciating the energy contained in so light a package (we do a one-time carefully considered installation with switches and contactors all around) - a cya component My concern is mostly whether in our normal use where we keep our batteries generally fully charged with something close enough to the required CC/CV regime the cells of a LFP battery will over time always converge in state of charge. It will be interesting to see how the motorcyclists will be doing with that. Jan de Jong ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Feb 07, 2011
I am going to collect a book about guys who are obsessed with a whacky idea. There's no shortage. Look at Paul Mollier. If you want to see another seductive but whacky idea check: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGGabrorRS8 or Google "Japanese machine turns plastic to fuel youtube" Your job is to figure out why it is a terrible idea. (And it is!) -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329944#329944 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 07, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Pitot Heat
At 03:58 AM 2/7/2011, you wrote: >Bob, Bob and Elbie > >Thanks for your comments ' On this basis I=92ll >save the wire, switch and weight and just use >the pitot unheated. Makes you wonder why so many >of the production aircraft have heated pitots and no other ice protection. Its a legacy FAA thing but I don't think it was ever well explained to the neophyte flying community. JUST because you CAN shed some ice on a really useful instrument system shouldn't be taken as a suggestion that continued flight into recent discovered icing conditions is encouraged. But it was part of an FAA certification for flight into IMC. Here are relevant paragraphs out of Part 23: Sec. 23.1323 Airspeed indicating system. (a) Each airspeed indicating instrument must be calibrated to indicate true airspeed (at sea level with a standard atmosphere) with a minimum practicable instrument calibration error when the corresponding pitot and static pressures are applied. (b) Each airspeed system must be calibrated in flight to determine the system error. The system error, including position error, but excluding the airspeed indicator instrument calibration error, may not exceed three percent of the calibrated airspeed or five knots, whichever is greater, throughout the following speed ranges: (1) 1.3 VS1 to VMO/MMO or VNE, whichever is appropriate with flaps retracted. (2) 1.3 VS1 to VFE with flaps extended. (c) The design and installation of each airspeed indicating system must provide positive drainage of moisture from the pitot static plumbing. (d) If certification for instrument flight rules or flight in icing conditions is requested, each airspeed system must have a heated pitot tube or an equivalent means of preventing malfunction due to icing. (e) In addition, for commuter category airplanes, the airspeed indicating system must be calibrated to determine the system error during the accelerate-takeoff ground run. The ground run calibration must be obtained between 0.8 of the minimum value of V1, and 1.2 times the maximum value of V1 considering the approved ranges of altitude and weight. The ground run calibration must be determined assuming an engine failure at the minimum value of V1. (f) For commuter category airplanes, where duplicate airspeed indicators are required, their respective pitot tubes must be far enough apart to avoid damage to both tubes in a collision with a bird. I don't think the wording of that paragraph has changed at all in my recollection. But in any case, I've come to understand that "malfunction due to icing" is a non-quantified term. There is ice, then there is Ice and finally, there is ICE. If you check out the kind of ice a pitot tube is expected to shed in the icing tunnel, it gives pause to consider how the rest of the airplane might be holding up. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 07, 2011
From: David <ainut(at)knology.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)
What amazes me about Moller is his ability to con, er, convince others to invest *millions* in his (so far unsuccessful) ideas. david Eric M. Jones wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > > I am going to collect a book about guys who are obsessed with a whacky idea. There's no shortage. Look at Paul Mollier. > > If you want to see another seductive but whacky idea check: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGGabrorRS8 > > or Google "Japanese machine turns plastic to fuel youtube" > > Your job is to figure out why it is a terrible idea. (And it is!) > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329944#329944 > > > -- If you're an American, just say NO to the Obamanation, to socialism, and get rid of Soros. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 07, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)
>If you want to see another seductive but whacky idea check: > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGGabrorRS8 > >or Google "Japanese machine turns plastic to fuel youtube" > >Your job is to figure out why it is a terrible idea. (And it is!) The first question that comes to mind is how many Joules of energy are required to convert say 1 kg of plastic into any useable liquid and how much energy is available for re-use from the utilization of that liquid in other applications? I think Ethanol has a similar conversion efficiency problem. It takes more energy to produce a volume of ethanol than one gets back out of it when it's burned in an engine. So while the byproduct (ethanol) might be a desirable fuel from the emissions perspective, emissions from production of the fuel more than offset the gains. It's that old entropy thingy . . . along with our willingness or inability to consider the end-to-end economics. Then there's the unintended consequences. I understand that about 1/3 of our corn crops in the US are scheduled to be turned into fuel . . . when the price of food is going up faster than inflation. Gee, do you suppose there's some linkage here? I'm curious too about what's left in the distillation system for the plastic-to-oil conversion at the end of a batch. What are the residues and what disposal problems do they present? And what's the energy budet for further processing to turn the "oil" into a motor fuel that modern engines require or will tolerate? That's not to suggest that the plastic-to-oil conversion might not make sense in some situations. But it takes and end-to-end study of the big-picture economics. Suppose you could gather all the plastic trash for a nation in a few locations. What are the logistics and energy expenditures for such an effort? The table top demonstrator might be just fine for the energy savy home-owner to convert HIS trash into a more useful and less unsightly commodity . . . but in the final analysis I think it will prove to be a more expensive and more energy intensive way to dispose of one's trash. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lynn Riggs" <riggs_la(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Pitot Heat
Date: Feb 07, 2011
My experience has been that you can ice up in a pitot tube without icing up the structure and if you do get into ice inadvertently the last thing you want to happen is loose your airspeed. I am adding the heated pitot tube. Lynn A. Riggs <http://home.comcast.net/~lariggs/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html> BH 656 Kit 22 http://www.vrbo.com/340549 http://www.vrbo.com/297684 From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Mather Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 2:58 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Pitot Heat Bob, Bob and Elbie Thanks for your comments - On this basis I'll save the wire, switch and weight and just use the pitot unheated. Makes you wonder why so many of the production aircraft have heated pitots and no other ice protection. Best Regards Peter From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of EMAproducts(at)aol.com Sent: 06 February 2011 21:56 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Pitot Heat Bob, as a 25000+ pilot and a CFI for nearly 50 years the advice you give below is the best info I've seen on any of the websites~~I tell people to turn our AOA system off if they are in icing, why have an instrument give you a bad indication~ I will never heat a vane unless the plane is approved for flight in icing conditions. Elbie Mendenhall EM aviation www.riteangle.com Any time you even THINK you've gathered some ice, the prudent action is to take immediate measures to get out . . . 180 turn, change altitude, etc. This (or a similar) philosophy for icing encounters should have you breathing easier in a much shorter period of time . . . and probably before the pitot tube ices over. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 07, 2011
From: Ralph & Maria Finch <ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)
Hmm. I wonder if MidWestern pro-capitalist free-enterprise supporters are behind the enormous corn subsidies. At least they let Microsoft invent the Internet though... RF On 2/6/2011 3:28 PM, Terry Watson wrote: > If they aren't pushing ethanol or wind power > fiascos, they are regulating other ideas into oblivion. > > Terry ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Feb 07, 2011
> What amazes me about Moller is his ability to con, er, convince others > to invest *millions* in his (so far unsuccessful) ideas. david The SEC smacked him down hard a couple years ago. Now he can't ask anybody for funds. http://www.sec.gov/litigation/litreleases/lr17987.htm Bob, All good points. As nice as the idea seems, a review of what has to be done to relatively- healthy cooking oil to make it work well in an engine merely hints at what has to be done to plastic fuel. Plastic contains vicious stuff...poisons, acids, corrosives. Your engine or your lungs...I wonder which fails first? Just because it burns, doesn't mean you should burn it. You haven't seen smog until you use plastic for fuel. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329962#329962 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Terry Mortimore" <terry.mortimore(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: ANL height, help please.
Date: Feb 07, 2011
Hi Gang: I was hoping to make some progress this week on my electrical system installation. The one thing I was waiting for from B&C Specialty products to let me carry on was not shipped. Not sure if I forgot to order it, or it fell throught the cracks somehow. I needed the ANL covered base and ANL fuse, I recieved the fuse but not the base. I need to know how high the base sits so I can finish bending the copper bus bar to fit. Does somebody out there know how high above the firewall surface the studs sit? I would have to add the thickness of the ANL fuse itself, but I have that information. Thanks in advance, Terry. Terry Mortimore 426 McNabb Street Apt#4 Sault Ste Marie, Ontario P6B 1Z3 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RGent1224(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 07, 2011
Subject: Re: Fwd: Solar Highways (off topic)
In a message dated 2/7/2011 10:42:29 A.M. Central Standard Time, earl_schroeder(at)juno.com writes: The RFD channel's program "This week in Agribusiness" is the only source in the media that gets the facts close to real life. (ch 231 on Dish Network and airs on the weekends) Try 345 on directv ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 07, 2011
From: John Morgensen <john(at)morgensen.com>
Subject: Re: ANL height, help please.
My base is NOT covered but it is 1/2" high plus the first nut which results in 7/16" from firewall to the "finger" on the ANL fuse. Hope this helps. john On 2/7/2011 7:25 AM, Terry Mortimore wrote: > > > > Hi Gang: > > I was hoping to make some progress this week on my electrical system > installation. The one thing I was waiting for from B&C Specialty > products to let me carry on was not shipped. Not sure if I forgot to > order it, or it fell throught the cracks somehow. > > I needed the ANL covered base and ANL fuse, I recieved the fuse but > not the base. I need to know how high the base sits so I can finish > bending the copper bus bar to fit. > > Does somebody out there know how high above the firewall surface the > studs sit? I would have to add the thickness of the ANL fuse itself, > but I have that information. > > > Thanks in advance, Terry. > > > Terry Mortimore > 426 McNabb Street Apt#4 > Sault Ste Marie, Ontario > P6B 1Z3 > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TERRY MORTIMORE <terry.mortimore(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Feb 07, 2011
Subject: Re: ANL height, help please.
Hi John=2C thanks for the reply=2E A fellow on Vansairforce tells me that the covered bases are a little ta ller measuring 3/4=22=2E This will get me going=2C thanks again=2E Terry=2E ----- Original Message ----- From=3A John Morgensen =3Cjohn=40morgensen=2Ecom=3E Date=3A Monday=2C February 7=2C 2011 12=3A35 pm Subject=3A Re=3A AeroElectric-List=3A ANL height=2C help please=2E To=3A aeroelectric-list=40matronics=2Ecom =3E --=3E AeroElectric-List message posted by=3A John Morgensen =3E =3Cjohn=40morgensen=2Ecom=3E =3E My base is NOT covered but it is 1/2=22 high plus the first nut =3E which results in 7/16=22 from firewall to the =22finger=22 on the AN L =3E fuse=2E- Hope this helps=2E =3E john =3E On 2/7/2011 7=3A25 AM=2C Terry Mortimore wrote=3A =3E =3E--=3E AeroElectric-List message posted by=3A =22Terry Mortimore=22 =3E =3Cterry=2Emortimore=40shaw=2Eca=3E=3E =3E =3E =3E =3EHi Gang=3A =3E =3E =3E =3EI was hoping to make some progress this week on my electrical =3E system installation=2E The one thing I was waiting for from B=26C =3E Specialty products to let me carry on was not shipped=2E Not sure =3E if I forgot to order it=2C or it fell throught the cracks somehow=2E =3E =3E =3E =3EI needed the ANL covered base and ANL fuse=2C I recieved the fuse =3E but not the base=2E I need to know how high the base sits so I can =3E finish bending the copper bus bar to fit=2E =3E =3E =3E =3EDoes somebody out there know how high above the firewall =3E surface the studs sit=3F I would have to add the thickness of the =3E ANL fuse itself=2C but I have that information=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3EThanks in advance=2C Terry=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3ETerry Mortimore =3E =3E426 McNabb Street Apt=234 =3E =3ESault Ste Marie=2C Ontario =3E =3EP6B 1Z3 =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =5F-====================== ======================== ============= =3E =5F-=--------- - The =3E AeroElectric-List Email Forum - =3E =5F-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse =3E =5F-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription=2C =3E =5F-= Archive Search =26 Download=2C 7-Day Browse=2C Chat=2C FAQ=2C =3E =5F-= Photoshare=2C and much much more=3A =3E =5F- =3E =5F-=-- --=3E =3E http=3A//www=2Ematronics=2Ecom/Navigator=3FAeroElectric-List =3E =5F- =3E =5F-====================== ======================== ============= =3E =5F- =3E =-------------- - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - =3E =5F-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! =3E =5F- =3E =5F-=-- --=3E http=3A//forums=2Ematronics=2Ecom =3E =5F- =3E =5F-====================== ======================== ============= =3E =5F- =3E =------------ - List Contribution Web Site - =3E =5F-=- Thank you for your generous support! =3E =5F- =3E =---------------------- ------- -Matt Dralle=2C List Admin=2E =3E =5F-=-- --=3E http=3A//www=2Ematronics=2Ecom/contribution =3E =5F-====================== ======================== ============= =3E =3E =3E =3E ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Battery box being demanded
From: "RayStL" <raystl(at)nbnet.nb.ca>
Date: Feb 07, 2011
Help. I have a homebuilt CH701. A DOT Inspector (Canada) is trying to force me to retrofit a battery box on my sealed Power Sonic battery attached to the cockpit side of the firewall. I need to convince him it complies with an applicable aviation standard. I am having a hard time finding anything concrete out there. Any suggestions? Thanks. --ray -------- Ray St-Laurent 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330059#330059 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Taylor" <Flydad57(at)neo.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Battery box being demanded
Date: Feb 07, 2011
Would it be reasonable for you to ask the good inspector the applicable aviation standard to which you were in violation? This would save some time and would give him the opportunity to "disengage". Just askin'. Bob Taylor TigerCub N657RT -------------------------------------------------- From: "RayStL" <raystl(at)nbnet.nb.ca> Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 6:41 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery box being demanded > > Help. I have a homebuilt CH701. A DOT Inspector (Canada) is trying to > force me to retrofit a battery box on my sealed Power Sonic battery > attached to the cockpit side of the firewall. I need to convince him it > complies with an applicable aviation standard. I am having a hard time > finding anything concrete out there. Any suggestions? > > Thanks. > --ray > > -------- > Ray St-Laurent > 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330059#330059 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 07, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: ANL height, help please.
At 10:25 AM 2/7/2011, you wrote: > > > >Hi Gang: > >I was hoping to make some progress this week on my electrical system >installation. The one thing I was waiting for from B&C Specialty >products to let me carry on was not shipped. Not sure if I forgot to >order it, or it fell throught the cracks somehow. > >I needed the ANL covered base and ANL fuse, I recieved the fuse but >not the base. I need to know how high the base sits so I can finish >bending the copper bus bar to fit. > >Does somebody out there know how high above the firewall surface the >studs sit? I would have to add the thickness of the ANL fuse itself, >but I have that information. I'm sure a call to B&C will get you a helpful person who will go measure one . . . assuming they are in stock. Looking at the Picture from the B&C website . . . Emacs! . . . and applying some simple ratio and proportion studies suggests that the overall height of this product is on the order of 1.75". Close enough for OBAM work? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery box being demanded
From: "RayStL" <raystl(at)nbnet.nb.ca>
Date: Feb 07, 2011
Here are his words... "you have not provided specific "accepted aviation standard practices" references or documentationrequired to meet Canadian Aviation Regulation Standard 549.5(b). " I am not sure what the FAR equivalent is. --ray -------- Ray St-Laurent 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330101#330101 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Transponder durability?
From: "WurlyBird" <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil>
Date: Feb 08, 2011
Hi all, I am new on this list but I have been on the Matronics Kitfox list for a while and one of the guys there recommend I come over here for some more serious electrical questions. I am shopping for a transponder for my Kitfox and my allotted budget mandates a used unit. The biggest question I have is just how durable, rugged, or fragile are transponders? I am shopping Barnstormers and Ebay and continually find units that will fit budget/panel/taste in the $6-800 range and many of them are not recently tested and I am unfamiliar so I do not know how picky to be. Any advice on shopping like this would be appreciated. Several people advertise having 8130s for the electronics and I don't know if this should be a necessity for me or even if it will guarantee functionality, theoretically it should but we are talking about online third party dealers so who know, right. In case the question arises, I am looking to put a transponder in because I fly out of a military bases class D and they will be more inclined to let me use their corridors if I am squawking. I also want the ability to fly down to Nashville and terrorize the ATC with my 70 kt cruise. Flight following will also be nice since I like to just puts around the countryside with no destination. Thanks for the help. -------- James Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA 50 hrs on the Fox in between deployments, now she lies in wait Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330119#330119 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery box being demanded
From: "RayStL" <raystl(at)nbnet.nb.ca>
Date: Feb 08, 2011
An STC of an equivalent installation might be the easiest way to convince. I think that would be an unvented AGM inside the cabin. I see there are some under seat Cub STC's that might do. Does anyone have details. If so then I just need to convince him that my battery is equivalent to that specified. --ray -------- Ray St-Laurent 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330122#330122 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pitot Heat
From: "tomcostanza" <Tom(at)CostanzaAndAssociates.com>
Date: Feb 08, 2011
Let me play devil's advocate here. As a student pilot, on a cold winter morning, after a thorough pre-flight, I took off on a practice xcountry with my instructor. The airspeed indicator failed after a few seconds of climbing, and stayed that way until landing. We both assumed that some melted frost made its way into the pitot, and then froze when we got some altitude. I made a very exciting cross wind landing in gusty conditions with no airspeed indicator. A heated pitot, even an underpowered one, would, I believe, have made it much less exciting. I got a 24V heated pitot for about $25. I'm putting it in my 12V airplane. I put an eyedropper full of water in it and put it in the freezer for a day. Later I heated it with 12V and the ice melted in less than 30 seconds. Granted the freezer didn't duplicate icing conditions, but as Bob said, if you're in icing conditions, you'll need more than a heated pitot. It may be a placebo, but at a cost of $25, it won't be any worse than a non-heated version. I'm sure a 25000+ hour pilot can fly an airplane with only a compass and an oil pressure gauge. But as a 200 hour wimpy VFR pilot, I'll feel safer. -------- Clear Skies, Tom Costanza Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330124#330124 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Battery box being demanded
Date: Feb 08, 2011
The problem is that specs here in Canada seldom if ever keep up with technology. The best thing to do is get yourself a box similar to either Tupperware or Rubbermaid which loosely fits the battery then add into the box some Styrofoam as bump protection. What he is looking for is containment of the acid and a possible short circuit in case of an accident. An installation which can withstand a minimum of 3G forward acceleration is also important for anything in or behind the panel. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RayStL Sent: February 7, 2011 8:12 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery box being demanded Help. I have a homebuilt CH701. A DOT Inspector (Canada) is trying to force me to retrofit a battery box on my sealed Power Sonic battery attached to the cockpit side of the firewall. I need to convince him it complies with an applicable aviation standard. I am having a hard time finding anything concrete out there. Any suggestions? Thanks. --ray -------- Ray St-Laurent 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330059#330059 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 08, 2011
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Battery box being demanded
Would he be amenable to discussing this with an MDRA inspector since MDRA does most of the amateur built Canadian inspections? My MDRA inspector never batted an eyelash even with one of my AGM batteries sitting on its side on the cockpit side of the firewall. An MOT inspector may not be familiar with AGM technology as they don't usually do initial inspections. I was under the impression that a battery vent port had to be routed overboard when it was in a battery box?? Impossible to do when the battery doesn't even have a vent port. Does Concord say anything about boxes for their certified AGM batteries? When dealing with bureaucracy it might be just as well to fabricate a temporary box but then I suppose this guy might want flow through box venting if he looks at it closely. Remove the electrical system temporarily? ;( Ken On 2/7/2011 6:41 PM, RayStL wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > "RayStL" > > Help. I have a homebuilt CH701. A DOT Inspector (Canada) is trying to > force me to retrofit a battery box on my sealed Power Sonic battery > attached to the cockpit side of the firewall. I need to convince > him it complies with an applicable aviation standard. I am having a > hard time finding anything concrete out there. Any suggestions? > > Thanks. --ray > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 08, 2011
Subject: Re: Transponder durability?
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
James, It's caveat emptor for anything off Ebay. If you assume it's junk, roughly 75% of the time you will be right. Be especially aware of "I'm selling this for a friend" deals. Too many horror stories. There's also the danger that it's stolen. If I were in your position, I would first join my local EAA chapter and ask around there. If nothing else you can probably get a recommendation to a good avionics shop. Otherwise, hit up your local avionics shops and ask about used, tested, and up to date. Rick Girard On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 6:54 AM, WurlyBird wrote: > james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil> > > Hi all, I am new on this list but I have been on the Matronics Kitfox list > for a while and one of the guys there recommend I come over here for some > more serious electrical questions. I am shopping for a transponder for my > Kitfox and my allotted budget mandates a used unit. The biggest question I > have is just how durable, rugged, or fragile are transponders? I am > shopping Barnstormers and Ebay and continually find units that will fit > budget/panel/taste in the $6-800 range and many of them are not recently > tested and I am unfamiliar so I do not know how picky to be. Any advice on > shopping like this would be appreciated. Several people advertise having > 8130s for the electronics and I don't know if this should be a necessity for > me or even if it will guarantee functionality, theoretically it should but > we are talking about online third party dealers so who know, right. > > In case the question arises, I am looking to put a transponder in because I > fly out of a military bases class D and they will be more inclined to let me > use their corridors if I am squawking. I also want the ability to fly down > to Nashville and terrorize the ATC with my 70 kt cruise. Flight following > will also be nice since I like to just puts around the countryside with no > destination. > > Thanks for the help. > > -------- > James > Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA > 50 hrs on the Fox in between deployments, > now she lies in wait > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330119#330119 > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Transponder durability?
From: "WurlyBird" <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil>
Date: Feb 08, 2011
I hear what you are saying about Ebay, Rick. I am hoping to have a box full of parts and projects waiting for me when I get home (currently deployed) and the transponder is one of very few that can be considered "serious." I have never messed with avionics so I am completely unfamiliar with their survivability when removed and stored and whatever else. To the other point, I have joined the EAA, finally, but there is no local chapter where I live. There are about 4 within an hour and a half of where I live so I will try to make it to a meeting at each and join one. This will probably take me several months to complete though. -------- James Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA 50 hrs on the Fox in between deployments, now she lies in wait Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330130#330130 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Andrew Zachar <andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pitot Heat
Date: Feb 08, 2011
Agreed. In the flight test world, we use heated pitot for not just ice protection, but also to aid in moisture evaporation. Can't let any moisture get into our precious pressure transducers, and a heated tip does the trick. __ Andrew Zachar andrew.d.zachar(at)gmail.com On Feb 8, 2011, at 8:25 AM, "tomcostanza" wrote: Snip... > it won't be any worse than a non-heated version. > > I'm sure a 25000+ hour pilot can fly an airplane with only a compass and an oil pressure gauge. But as a 200 hour wimpy VFR pilot, I'll feel safer. > > -------- > Clear Skies, > Tom Costanza ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Battery box being demanded
Date: Feb 08, 2011
Ok here it is: 549.5 Construction (a) Aircraft, including those supplied in kit form, will be designated as amateur-built aircraft, where the major portion of the aircraft (more than 50%) is fabricated from raw material and assembled by an individual or a group of individuals on a non-commercial, non-production basis for educational or recreational purposes Information Note: (Ref. AMA 549/1A, para. 5). (b) Methods of fabrication and assembly, and workmanship shall be appropriate and should conform to accepted aviation standard practices. >From this what he wants to see is the fact you and any other owners of the kit did more than 50 % of the construction of the plane. If the Plane is a kit then all you need is the paperwork from the kit supplier stating that more than 50% of the work to build must be done by the builder to complete the plane. Most, if not all U.S. kits will pass this requirement. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RayStL Sent: February 8, 2011 2:16 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery box being demanded Here are his words... "you have not provided specific "accepted aviation standard practices" references or documentationrequired to meet Canadian Aviation Regulation Standard 549.5(b). " I am not sure what the FAR equivalent is. --ray -------- Ray St-Laurent 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330101#330101 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pitot Heat
Date: Feb 08, 2011
> I got a 24V heated pitot for about $25. I'm putting it in my 12V airplan e. > Clear Skies=2C > Tom Costanza Tom=2C It sounds as if you've made up your mind=2C and if peace of mind is what you're after=2C you are the one that gets to make that choice. The only thing I would caution=2C though=2C is make absolutely sure you w ire it like it was originally wired. Find out if the probe was intended to be 'always hot'=2C if if it had some way to regulate it's heating. The reason I mention this is I read a few days ago how the Dynon heated p robe uses a microprocessor to heat the tip. I'm simply suggesting you should make sure the probe you have doesn't use the same type of circuitry. Here's the reference to the Dynon heated probe I was referring to=3B Heating: Principles of Operation This much-anticipated heated version of Dynon=92s AOA/Pitot Probe utilizes a heating mechanism unlike any other heated pitot on the market. The probe is heated by a high-quality nichrome heating element whose temperature is a ccurately measured and regulated by a microprocessor-based controller. This controller=97located in an enclosure which can be mounted in a wing or els ewhere=97regulates the heat at the tip of the probe to a constant temperatu re. There are several advantages to this=2C including: lower power consumpt ion=2C increased heating element lifespan=2C and a much cooler pitot on the ground when de-icing is not necessary. This unique technique ensures that the pitot can be rapidly de-iced when required=2C but does not needlessly w aste electricity when not in icing conditions. While the probe does not operate like a normal heated pitot=2C it will stil l get fairly hot in normal ambient temperatures. When turned on=2C it will regulate its internal temperature to about 70=B0C to 80=B0C. To ensure that the heater is working=2C briefly touch the end of the pitot farthest from the snout after 1 minute of operation and verify that it is warm. Since you are the one who is going to fly your plane=2C you should be com fortable with your choices=2C just make sure they are good choices. Mike Welch ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Battery box being demanded
Date: Feb 08, 2011
Just noticed in your case you have a CH 701 with Pegastol wings... You may need two certificates for the 50% rule. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RayStL Sent: February 8, 2011 2:16 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery box being demanded Here are his words... "you have not provided specific "accepted aviation standard practices" references or documentationrequired to meet Canadian Aviation Regulation Standard 549.5(b). " I am not sure what the FAR equivalent is. --ray -------- Ray St-Laurent 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330101#330101 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: GPS Jamming
Date: Feb 08, 2011
Someone please tell me this is not true! Bill B FCC Approves GPS-jamming transmitters Federal Communications Commission gives the green light to 40,000 broadband transmitters that would cripple GPS navigation. 26 January 2011 =C3=A2=82=AC=9D The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) has approved a company called LightSquared Communications to install up to 40,000 high-powered, land-based broadband transmitters that broadcast in the band directly adjacent to the GPS frequencies. It has been found that these transmitters would have a disastrous effect upon aviation GPS receivers such as the popular Garmin GNS 430W. In testing, the receivers began to be jammed at 13.8 miles from each transmitter site, and navigation was effectively shut down at 5.6 miles from each site. Automotive units such as the Nuvi did a little better. The approval was moved rapidly through the approval process, and the approval was made despite industry representatives' pleas to evaluate the transmitters further. [ Read <http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/news/data-shows-disastrous-gps-jammi ng-fcc-approved-broadcaster-11029?utm_source=GPS&utm_medium=email&utm _campaign=Navigate_01_31_2011&utm_content=data-shows-disastrous-gps-j amming-fcc-approved-broadcaster-11029> the Full Article >> ] More information, including contact numbers for the lawmakers who are involved in the approval process can be found here: GPS <http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/news/gps-community-urged-contact-con gress-regarding-fcc-proposal-10962> Community Urged to Contact Congress. The FCC's Chief of the International Bureau, Mindel De La Torre, was not swayed by the protests of the GPS manufacturers; perhaps she would be influenced by a whole bunch of respectful, concerned citizens who wrote to her at <http://us.mc1117.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Mindel.DeLaTorre@fcc.gov > Mindel.DeLaTorre(at)fcc.gov, or called her office at 202-418-0437. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Transponder durability?
Date: Feb 08, 2011
James=2C Rick Gerard is correct about eBay. I bought my King KT76 off eBay=2C and it was supposedly recently certified and came with a yellow tag. All this was a l ie!!! It was not recently inspected=2C because it was missing the ident button. I had to end up sending it to an avionics repairman to have it properly fixed!! However=2C there are many very reputable avionics repair shops on eBay=2C too. For my GlaStar=2C I bought a very nice condition Narco AT150=2C and it DID come with a proper repair order (from a very famous avionics shop) (but the pri ce wasn't any better than I could have gotten locally=2C either) If I needed to buy a reasonably priced=2C used piece of avionics hardware today=2C I'd find my local avionics shop=2C and see what he had! eBay prices will N OT be any better than your local guy=2C and he ought to help you if there is a pr oblem. Your best deal will be being able to hold in your hand your favorite transp onder=2C and haggle over the price with the guy on the other side of the counter! I n addition to selling you the transponder=2C he can also make sure you have all the pe ripheral stuff=2C like the tray=2C the pins and connector=2C and he could likely mak e your antenna cable. BTW=2C regarding selling stolen stuff on eBay=2C here is the scam I heard that the thieves do=3B Some lowlife SOB walks a ramp looking into windows of planes. He spots TWO exact same models of....let's say transponders. He pops the door open=2C t ake one out=2C and then heads over to the second plane. Next=2C he pops the door o pen on the second plane=2C and then slides out the second transponder!! Now=2C he slides the first transponder into the second plane!! Clever! The second plane owner has a transponder=2C and never think twice about it=2C even tho ugh it's stolen. He never reports anything=2C because he doesn't know a thing. So=2C airplane owner #1 calls and reports a stolen transponder and furnis hes a serial number (of the transponder in plane #2). In the meantime=2C SOB thief guy puts transponder #2 on eBay=2C and knows no one suspects a thing=2C because they aren't looking for this transponder=2C the y're looking for the transponder in plane #2. Ingenius thieves!! Mike Welch Date: Tue=2C 8 Feb 2011 07:39:07 -0600 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transponder durability? From: aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com James=2C It's caveat emptor for anything off Ebay. If you assume it's junk =2C roughly 75% of the time you will be right. Be especially aware of "I'm selling this for a friend" deals. Too many horror stories. There's also the danger that it's stolen. If I were in your position=2C I would first join my local EAA chapter and ask around there. If nothing else you can probably get a recommendation to a good avionics shop. Otherwise=2C hit up your loc al avionics shops and ask about used=2C tested=2C and up to date. Rick Girard On Tue=2C Feb 8=2C 2011 at 6:54 AM=2C WurlyBird wrote: rmy.mil> Hi all=2C I am new on this list but I have been on the Matronics Kitfox lis t for a while and one of the guys there recommend I come over here for some more serious electrical questions. I am shopping for a transponder for my Kitfox and my allotted budget mandates a used unit. The biggest question I have is just how durable=2C rugged=2C or fragile are transponders? I am shopping Barnstormers and Ebay and continually find units that will fit bud get/panel/taste in the $6-800 range and many of them are not recently teste d and I am unfamiliar so I do not know how picky to be. Any advice on shop ping like this would be appreciated. Several people advertise having 8130s for the electronics and I don't know if this should be a necessity for me or even if it will guarantee functionality=2C theoretically it should but w e are talking about online third party dealers so who know=2C right. In case the question arises=2C I am looking to put a transponder in because I fly out of a military bases class D and they will be more inclined to le t me use their corridors if I am squawking. I also want the ability to fly down to Nashville and terrorize the ATC with my 70 kt cruise. Flight foll owing will also be nice since I like to just puts around the countryside wi th no destination. Thanks for the help. -------- James Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70"=3B IVO 2 blade GA 50 hrs on the Fox in between deployments=2C now she lies in wait Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330119#330119 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Li st http://forums.matronics.com le=2C List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks=2C Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jerald Folkerts" <jfolkerts1(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Transponder durability?
Date: Feb 08, 2011
James, I'm starting to consider my options as well. I'm trying hard to stay within a budget and working to ensure I only include what I need for the type of flying I'm anticipating. I've found there are good options for used avionics from several respected vendors, i.e. Gulf Coast Avionics, Bennett Avionics just to name a couple. You'll find that when certified airplanes upgrade to glass and Class S transponders, there are good deals out there. In some cases, these vendors will also sell reconditioned avionics with warranty's. One example I've looked at is a Reconditioned King KT-76A Transponder. Many of the vendors are selling these for approximately $695.00. I haven't made any decisions yet, but have just been searching various options. The above is also not to recommend any specific vendor, but only to illustrate what is available. Also remember, on some of these you have to add an encoder. Regards, Jerry Folkerts SR2500 #093 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of WurlyBird Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 7:54 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder durability? I hear what you are saying about Ebay, Rick. I am hoping to have a box full of parts and projects waiting for me when I get home (currently deployed) and the transponder is one of very few that can be considered "serious." I have never messed with avionics so I am completely unfamiliar with their survivability when removed and stored and whatever else. To the other point, I have joined the EAA, finally, but there is no local chapter where I live. There are about 4 within an hour and a half of where I live so I will try to make it to a meeting at each and join one. This will probably take me several months to complete though. -------- James Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA 50 hrs on the Fox in between deployments, now she lies in wait Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330130#330130 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Pitot Heat
Date: Feb 08, 2011
I fly with an heated pitot tube in my Rv-6A - and glad I do. Through exercising poor judgment, I found myself in IMC conditions over Northen Georgia at 8500 MSL in clouds. I had thought to "punch through" a thin line of clouds to get to the clear cold high pressure area behind a cold front. After a couple of minutes on the gauges, better judgment prevailed and I turned 180 to get back out of IMC conditions. I noticed ice forming on the leading edge of my canopy and then on the wing in front of the fuel caps. I belatedly remembered I had pitot heat and turned it on - approx 5-10 seconds later the airspeed indicator gave a blip from near zero back to reasonable indicated (I suspect that was a slug of moisture that a few seconds eariler had been ice forming on the pilot tube). The gauges and GPS got me head backs in the right direction and several tense minutes later I broke out of IMC conditions and made a landing to spend the night. A bit shaken and vowing never to try to "punch though" again, I was very appreciative of my heated pitot tube. In all my 10 years of flying with it - that was the first time I had ever turned it on in flight. So perhaps not essential for an VFR pilot - I personally do not see any down side (other than money and a bit of weight) to having one. FWIW Ed -------------------------------------------------- From: "tomcostanza" <Tom(at)CostanzaAndAssociates.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 8:25 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Heat > > > Let me play devil's advocate here. > > As a student pilot, on a cold winter morning, after a thorough pre-flight, > I took off on a practice xcountry with my instructor. The airspeed > indicator failed after a few seconds of climbing, and stayed that way > until landing. We both assumed that some melted frost made its way into > the pitot, and then froze when we got some altitude. I made a very > exciting cross wind landing in gusty conditions with no airspeed > indicator. A heated pitot, even an underpowered one, would, I believe, > have made it much less exciting. > > I got a 24V heated pitot for about $25. I'm putting it in my 12V > airplane. I put an eyedropper full of water in it and put it in the > freezer for a day. Later I heated it with 12V and the ice melted in less > than 30 seconds. Granted the freezer didn't duplicate icing conditions, > but as Bob said, if you're in icing conditions, you'll need more than a > heated pitot. It may be a placebo, but at a cost of $25, it won't be any > worse than a non-heated version. > > I'm sure a 25000+ hour pilot can fly an airplane with only a compass and > an oil pressure gauge. But as a 200 hour wimpy VFR pilot, I'll feel > safer. > > -------- > Clear Skies, > Tom Costanza > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330124#330124 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ernest Kells <ekells(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: ANL height, help please.
Date: Feb 08, 2011
Hello, Terry: Have you tried calling B&C Speciality about this. Seems to me that they have the knowledge. I have, on several occasions called ACS in Georgia with questions like this. They always mean well and usually have/will find out the answer for me. I have always kept the shipping papers in case there is any issues with a lawsuit, etc. Ernie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Mortimore" <terry.mortimore(at)shaw.ca> Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 10:25 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: ANL height, help please. > > > > Hi Gang: > > I was hoping to make some progress this week on my electrical system > installation. The one thing I was waiting for from B&C Specialty products > to let me carry on was not shipped. Not sure if I forgot to order it, or > it fell throught the cracks somehow. > > I needed the ANL covered base and ANL fuse, I recieved the fuse but not > the base. I need to know how high the base sits so I can finish bending > the copper bus bar to fit. > > Does somebody out there know how high above the firewall surface the studs > sit? I would have to add the thickness of the ANL fuse itself, but I have > that information. > > > Thanks in advance, Terry. > > > Terry Mortimore > 426 McNabb Street Apt#4 > Sault Ste Marie, Ontario > P6B 1Z3 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 08, 2011
From: Harley <harley(at)agelesswings.com>
Subject: Re: GPS Jamming
This is partially true...the interference possibilities were discovered during the required lab testing of the devices, and none have yet been deployed. The FCC is looking into this and is requiring Lightsquared to correct the matter before deploying the devices. They have until June 15th to reply. Here's an excerpt from the FCC statement: "LightSquared is further required to submit a final report no later than June 15, 2011, that includes the working groups analyses of the potential for overload interference to GPS devices from LightSquareds terrestrial network of base stations, technical and operational steps to avoid such interference, and specific recommendations going forward to mitigate potential interference to GPS devices. The Bureau reserves the right to adjust the reporting dates and requirements in consultation with NTIA. The process will be complete once the Commission, after consultation with NTIA, concludes that the harmful interference concerns have been resolved and sends a letter to LightSquared stating that the process is complete. Harley ----------------------------------------------------------------- On 2/8/2011 9:15 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote: > > Someone please tell me this is not true! > > Bill B > > *FCC Approves GPS-jamming transmitters * > *Federal Communications Commission gives the green light to > 40,000 broadband transmitters that would cripple GPS navigation.* > > *26 January2011 The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) > has approved a company called LightSquared Communications to > install up to 40,000 high-powered, land-based broadband > transmitters that broadcast in the band directly adjacent to > the GPS frequencies. It has been found that these transmitters > would have a disastrous effect upon aviation GPS receivers such > as the popular Garmin GNS 430W. In testing, the receivers began > to be jammed at 13.8 miles from each transmitter site, and > navigation was effectively shut down at 5.6 miles from each > site. Automotive units such as the Nuvi did a little better.* > > The approval was moved rapidly through the approval process, > and the approval was made despite industry representatives' > pleas to evaluate the transmitters further. > > [ Read the Full Article >> > <http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/news/data-shows-disastrous-gps-jamming-fcc-approved-broadcaster-11029?utm_source=GPS&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navigate_01_31_2011&utm_content=data-shows-disastrous-gps-jamming-fcc-approved-broadcaster-11029> > ] > > More information, including contact numbers for the lawmakers > who are involved in the approval process can be found here: GPS > Community Urged to Contact Congress > <http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/news/gps-community-urged-contact-congress-regarding-fcc-proposal-10962>. > > The FCC's Chief of the International Bureau, Mindel De La > Torre, was not swayed by the protests of the GPS manufacturers; > perhaps she would be influenced by a whole bunch of respectful, > concerned citizens who wrote to her at Mindel.DeLaTorre(at)fcc.gov > <http://us.mc1117.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Mindel.DeLaTorre@fcc.gov>, > or called her office at 202-418-0437. > > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 08, 2011
Subject: Re: Transponder durability?
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
I've been watching and bidding on avionics on ebay for the past two years or so, and in several cases I've had notices that my bids were cancelled because ebay determined that the auction was fradulent. Be really careful! I would trust someone like wentworth in their ebay auctions because I know that they are also a legitimate aviation company. Look at the seller's other auctions, and be very wary of a seller who has no other avionics or aviation related listings. Scammers will get the passwords of ebay users through email phishing, then make a listing for something expensive. Avionics are a great subject for them, since we aviation folks generally trust each other pretty well, and since the selling prices are relatively high. Another good option is to deal with someone who you can visit in person to pay and pick up. Use the geographic search filters. If they refuse to allow a local pickup, or if there is talk about a buy-it-now price in the description that is too good to be true, report the auction and move on. On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Richard Girard wrote: > James, It's caveat emptor for anything off Ebay. If you assume it's junk, > roughly 75% of the time you will be right. Be especially aware of "I'm > selling this for a friend" deals. Too many horror stories. There's also the > danger that it's stolen. If I were in your position, I would first join my > local EAA chapter and ask around there. If nothing else you can probably get > a recommendation to a good avionics shop. Otherwise, hit up your local > avionics shops and ask about used, tested, and up to date. > > Rick Girard > > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 6:54 AM, WurlyBird wrote: > >> james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil> >> >> Hi all, I am new on this list but I have been on the Matronics Kitfox list >> for a while and one of the guys there recommend I come over here for some >> more serious electrical questions. I am shopping for a transponder for my >> Kitfox and my allotted budget mandates a used unit. The biggest question I >> have is just how durable, rugged, or fragile are transponders? I am >> shopping Barnstormers and Ebay and continually find units that will fit >> budget/panel/taste in the $6-800 range and many of them are not recently >> tested and I am unfamiliar so I do not know how picky to be. Any advice on >> shopping like this would be appreciated. Several people advertise having >> 8130s for the electronics and I don't know if this should be a necessity for >> me or even if it will guarantee functionality, theoretically it should but >> we are talking about online third party dealers so who know, right. >> >> In case the question arises, I am looking to put a transponder in because >> I fly out of a military bases class D and they will be more inclined to let >> me use their corridors if I am squawking. I also want the ability to fly >> down to Nashville and terrorize the ATC with my 70 kt cruise. Flight >> following will also be nice since I like to just puts around the countryside >> with no destination. >> >> Thanks for the help. >> >> -------- >> James >> Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA >> 50 hrs on the Fox in between deployments, >> now she lies in wait >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330119#330119 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> -List" target="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> le, List Admin. >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Zulu Delta > Mk IIIC > Thanks, Homer GBYM > > It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. > - Groucho Marx > > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Transponder durability?
From: "WurlyBird" <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil>
Date: Feb 08, 2011
I hate to admit it but I have been taken a time or two on Ebay, fortunately never on anything significant in price though. I do know well enough to research the sellers too. There are quite a few sellers that specialize in avionics with good (100%) feedback. That is reassuring but not to a fault. I hate for this thread to revolve solely on Ebay though as I also keep my eyes on Barnstormers and have emailed several avionics companies from there but always too late to get the item. To kind of narrow the conversation a little I will rephrase my big concerns. How delicate are transponders as far as electronics go? The process seems simple enough. The antenna receives the interrogation and transmits the transponders discreet code on the set ATC freq, including alt if an encoder is wired in. So basically there is a receiver on a set freq, a transmitter on a set freq, and two encoders which dictate the transmission. So where does the failure usually occur? In a proper installation used for a long time, does anything wear out? Transmitter, amp, fingamadoohicky? Are they easy to damage during normal install and removal? When they do get old are repairs prohibitively expensive causing an older unit to cost more then a new? Are there any ways besides just shopping online to really get an idea of what used avionics are worth? Knowing that line of what is to good to be true has been a big help to me in the past. Most likely I will just wait until I get home, but asking questions like this and getting GA educated is how I keep myself entertained over here. Thanks again all. -------- James Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA 50 hrs on the Fox in between deployments, now she lies in wait Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330160#330160 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
Subject: Battery box being demanded
Date: Feb 08, 2011
2/8/2011 Hello Fellow Builders, Ray St-Laurent wrote: "I need to convince him it complies with an applicable aviation standard." Ray, you might go through this Concorde RG7 SERIES AIRCRAFT BATTERY OWNER/OPERATOR MANUAL for aircraft RG batteries and find enough evidence to convince your inspector. Please let us know how you make out. http://www.concordebattery.com/otherpdf/5-0324-rg-manual.pdf Bob Taylor wrote: "Would it be reasonable for you to ask the good inspector the applicable aviation standard to which you were in violation?" and Ray responded: "Here are his words..."you have not provided specific "accepted aviation standard practices" references or documentation required to meet Canadian Aviation Regulation Standard 549.5(b)." Here is what Part V - Airworthiness Manual Chapter 549 - Amateur-Built Aircraft 549.5(b) says: http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/regserv/cars/part5-standards-549-sub-a-1785.htm Note that the word "experimental" does not appear in this Part V. I have two questions: A) I wonder if the very first composite construction amateur built aircraft in Canada met their then existing "accepted aviation standard practices" ? B) I wonder if Ray's Suzuki engine meets Canadian "accepted aviation standard practices"? I am grateful to the EAA and many amateur building predecessors here in the USA that I don't have to abide by Canadian regulations. 'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to gather and understand knowledge." PS: I have an Odyssey PC-680 RG battery in my KIS TR-1 baggage compartment behind the right seat. No battery box per se, just sound structural mounting. ========================================================== From: "Robert Taylor" <Flydad57(at)neo.rr.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery box being demanded Would it be reasonable for you to ask the good inspector the applicable aviation standard to which you were in violation? This would save some time and would give him the opportunity to "disengage". Just askin'. Bob Taylor TigerCub N657RT -------------------------------------------------- From: "RayStL" <raystl(at)nbnet.nb.ca> Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 6:41 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery box being demanded > > Help. I have a homebuilt CH701. A DOT Inspector (Canada) is trying to > force me to retrofit a battery box on my sealed Power Sonic battery > attached to the cockpit side of the firewall. I need to convince him it > complies with an applicable aviation standard. I am having a hard time > finding anything concrete out there. Any suggestions? > > Thanks. > --ray > > -------- > Ray St-Laurent > 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 08, 2011
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Shorai LiFePO4
thanks Jan My outstanding concern is what is the worst case risk of rupturing a cell after extended times (occasionally 8 hour days) at 14.5 volts with no cell balancing? It sounds like a ruptured cell could be bad news. If that was not a concern then I'd be willing to experiment with some equalization and temperature monitoring for long x-country flights if that substantially extended the service life. My batteries sit between my rudder pedals. I need electricity to keep the engine running but aircraft integrity and breathable air to keep me running is even more important. I will be watching the motorcycle experience as well. Life expectancy is not a concern for me to try them but failure modes definitely are. Please keep posting any further info. Ken On 2/7/2011 7:25 AM, Jan de Jong wrote: > > > Hi Ken, > > Re http://manuals.hobbico.com/hca/lifesource-manual-v2.pdf > It sure sounds ominous. > Let me think of some reasons why it may be too ominous. > - the hobbico batteries regularly crash to earth - it is part of their job > (in a real airplane a battery would crash at most once and even then be > more protected as part of a larger object; > thanks to its light weight it may well stay in its designated place too; > if it is not physically damaged there is no danger; the chemistry needs > more than 900 'C to burn) > - the hobbico batteries are composed of random cells of the same > manufacture > (the Shorai battery cells may be designed/manufactured/selected to be > part of the same battery) > - the hobby user may be suspected of not appreciating the energy > contained in so light a package > (we do a one-time carefully considered installation with switches and > contactors all around) > - a cya component > > My concern is mostly whether in our normal use where we keep our > batteries generally fully charged with something close enough to the > required CC/CV regime the cells of a LFP battery will over time always > converge in state of charge. > > It will be interesting to see how the motorcyclists will be doing with > that. > > Jan de Jong > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery box being demanded
From: "RayStL" <raystl(at)nbnet.nb.ca>
Date: Feb 08, 2011
Thanks for your help so far. Let me give more background. The aircraft has been flying for over 3 years. The MDRA inspector was fine with the battery. My aircraft has been grounded since the inspection last August. There were 2 issues they had. The battery is one. The second was because I have a variable pitch prop (Ivo) regulations say I need a manifold pressure gauge. My engine is a modern car engine that continuously measures manifold pressure, throttle position, rpm, air temperature, exhaust oxygen and uses that to control fuel and ignition. A separate manifold gauge would be a distraction at best. Yes it would have been easier to knuckle under to their inappropriate requests. (I would like to Nuckolls them. Grrr.) They finally relented on the manifold pressure issue. Only the battery issue remains. The easiest way is to find something approved that will fit in their pigeon hole. Otherwise I have been told I have go through a full technical analysis (and test?) to justify it. On a homebuilt!!!??? -------- Ray St-Laurent 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330169#330169 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 08, 2011
Subject: Re: Battery box being demanded
From: Bill Boyd <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Ridiculous-sounding stuff on their part. I'm guessing that later removal o f said battery box would not constitute a "major change." More like ongoing experimentation in your experimental aircraft. Still a hassle to build the box in the first place. When my pink Gill battery was replaced by an Odyssey, the loss of the battery box was not a reported event. So it shall remain. -Bill B On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 11:44 AM, RayStL wrote: > > Thanks for your help so far. > > Let me give more background. The aircraft has been flying for over 3 year s. > The MDRA inspector was fine with the battery. > > My aircraft has been grounded since the inspection last August. There wer e > 2 issues they had. The battery is one. The second was because I have a > variable pitch prop (Ivo) regulations say I need a manifold pressure gaug e. > My engine is a =91modern=92 car engine that continuously measures manifol d > pressure, throttle position, rpm, air temperature, exhaust oxygen and use s > that to control fuel and ignition. A separate manifold gauge would be a > distraction at best. > > Yes it would have been easier to knuckle under to their inappropriate > requests. (I would like to Nuckolls them. Grrr.) > > They finally relented on the manifold pressure issue. Only the battery > issue remains. > > The easiest way is to find something approved that will fit in their pige on > hole. Otherwise I have been told I have go through a full technical analy sis > (and test?) to justify it. > > On a homebuilt!!!??? > > -------- > Ray St-Laurent > 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330169#330169 > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ralph & Maria Finch" <ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.com>
Subject: OT: Creative thievery
Date: Feb 08, 2011
Far off topic, but you guys are all talking petty thievery. The real crooks legally steal our tax money, see video clip below: http://www.youtube.com/user/fiercefreeleancer ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Battery box being demanded
Date: Feb 08, 2011
The section and subsection he quoted you have nothing whatsoever to do with battery location or installation. Contact the nearest chapter of the RAA ( Recreational Aircraft Association for clarification. Their mandate is not to keep you out of the air just to make you safe when you do fly. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Sent: February 8, 2011 9:56 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery box being demanded Would he be amenable to discussing this with an MDRA inspector since MDRA does most of the amateur built Canadian inspections? My MDRA inspector never batted an eyelash even with one of my AGM batteries sitting on its side on the cockpit side of the firewall. An MOT inspector may not be familiar with AGM technology as they don't usually do initial inspections. I was under the impression that a battery vent port had to be routed overboard when it was in a battery box?? Impossible to do when the battery doesn't even have a vent port. Does Concord say anything about boxes for their certified AGM batteries? When dealing with bureaucracy it might be just as well to fabricate a temporary box but then I suppose this guy might want flow through box venting if he looks at it closely. Remove the electrical system temporarily? ;( Ken On 2/7/2011 6:41 PM, RayStL wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > "RayStL" > > Help. I have a homebuilt CH701. A DOT Inspector (Canada) is trying to > force me to retrofit a battery box on my sealed Power Sonic battery > attached to the cockpit side of the firewall. I need to convince > him it complies with an applicable aviation standard. I am having a > hard time finding anything concrete out there. Any suggestions? > > Thanks. --ray > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: GPS Jamming
Date: Feb 08, 2011
They will be shut down with the first lawsuit. It is illegal for anyone with or without a license to interrupt a radio signal. I expect there is further legislation preventing the jamming of navigational radio aids. There was very strict regulations regarding the operation of radio in the 160 Meter band because of the possibility of interfering with LORAN C. Noel From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: February 8, 2011 10:46 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: GPS Jamming Someone please tell me this is not true! Bill B FCC Approves GPS-jamming transmitters Federal Communications Commission gives the green light to 40,000 broadband transmitters that would cripple GPS navigation. 26 January 2011 =C3=A2=82=AC=9D The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) has approved a company called LightSquared Communications to install up to 40,000 high-powered, land-based broadband transmitters that broadcast in the band directly adjacent to the GPS frequencies. It has been found that these transmitters would have a disastrous effect upon aviation GPS receivers such as the popular Garmin GNS 430W. In testing, the receivers began to be jammed at 13.8 miles from each transmitter site, and navigation was effectively shut down at 5.6 miles from each site. Automotive units such as the Nuvi did a little better. The approval was moved rapidly through the approval process, and the approval was made despite industry representatives' pleas to evaluate the transmitters further. [ Read the Full Article <http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/news/data-shows-disastrous-gps-jammi ng-fcc-approved-broadcaster-11029?utm_source=GPS&utm_medium=email&utm _campaign=Navigate_01_31_2011&utm_content=data-shows-disastrous-gps-j amming-fcc-approved-broadcaster-11029> >> ] More information, including contact numbers for the lawmakers who are involved in the approval process can be found here: GPS Community Urged to Contact Congress <http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/news/gps-community-urged-contact-con gress-regarding-fcc-proposal-10962> . The FCC's Chief of the International Bureau, Mindel De La Torre, was not swayed by the protests of the GPS manufacturers; perhaps she would be influenced by a whole bunch of respectful, concerned citizens who wrote to her at <http://us.mc1117.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Mindel.DeLaTorre@fcc.gov > Mindel.DeLaTorre(at)fcc.gov, or called her office at 202-418-0437. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 08, 2011
Subject: Re:Stereo Headsets
From: Franz Fux <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com>
Hi , I send a note the other day but did not get any response so I try again. I have a Gentex Helmet for my RV7 that I would like to convert from mono to stereo output to suit the PM3000 intercom in my plane. I am wondering if anybody would know how to go about this, is there a kit that I could purchase or is there a company out there that could help. Thanks for any help Franz RV7 500h ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 08, 2011
Subject: Re: GPS Jamming
From: Bill Boyd <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
I think it's only illegal if the FCC says it is. They can authorize whatever they want. The restrictions in Top Band to protect Loran-A were placed by the FCC, and were always subject to their whim. If the FCC allow s 4G jammers into service, a lawsuit would have little standing that I can see. It's their sand box. We citizens play in it at their pleasure, or so they think. Which raises a question: should not 11 meters have been called "Subjects' Band?" Bill B On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:53 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: > They will be shut down with the first lawsuit. It is illegal for anyone > with or without a license to interrupt a radio signal. I expect there is > further legislation preventing the jamming of navigational radio aids. > There was very strict regulations regarding the operation of radio in the > 160 Meter band because of the possibility of interfering with LORAN C. > > > Noel > > > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: > owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill > Bradburry > *Sent:* February 8, 2011 10:46 AM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: GPS Jamming > > > Someone please tell me this is not true! > > > Bill B > > > *FCC Approves GPS-jamming transmitters * > *Federal Communications Commission gives the green light to 40,000 > broadband transmitters that would cripple GPS navigation.* > > *26 January 2011 =94 The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) ha s > approved a company called LightSquared Communications to install up to > 40,000 high-powered, land-based broadband transmitters that broadcast in the > band directly adjacent to the GPS frequencies. It has been found that the se > transmitters would have a disastrous effect upon aviation GPS receivers s uch > as the popular Garmin GNS 430W. In testing, the receivers began to be jam med > at 13.8 miles from each transmitter site, and navigation was effectively > shut down at 5.6 miles from each site. Automotive units such as the Nuvi did > a little better.* > > > The approval was moved rapidly through the approval process, and the > approval was made despite industry representatives' pleas to evaluate the > transmitters further. > > [ Read the Full Article >><http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/news/data -shows-disastrous-gps-jamming-fcc-approved-broadcaster-11029?utm_source=G PS&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navigate_01_31_2011&utm_content=data -shows-disastrous-gps-jamming-fcc-approved-broadcaster-11029>] > > More information, including contact numbers for the lawmakers who are > involved in the approval process can be found here: GPS Community Urged t o > Contact Congress<http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/news/gps-community-u rged-contact-congress-regarding-fcc-proposal-10962> > . > > The FCC's Chief of the International Bureau, Mindel De La Torre, was not > swayed by the protests of the GPS manufacturers; perhaps she would be > influenced by a whole bunch of respectful, concerned citizens who wrote t o > her at Mindel.DeLaTorre@fcc.gov<http://us.mc1117.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compos e?to=Mindel.DeLaTorre(at)fcc.gov>, > or called her office at 202-418-0437. > > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 08, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Pitot Heat
>I'm sure a 25000+ hour pilot can fly an airplane with only a compass >and an oil pressure gauge. But as a 200 hour wimpy VFR pilot, I'll feel safer. But a 50 hour pilot can learn. When I owned 1K1 I occasionally had an opportunity to ride around the patch with a new renter. Never encountered a pilot I wouldn't be willing to rent to. But virtually all were very panel-fixated in the pattern. Our little uncontrolled airport hosted numerous no-radio airplanes and we were a popular touch-n-go stop for other no-radio airplanes. I felt a lot better about the pilot who flew the airplane confidently with his head out of the cockpit as opposed to the ones whose comfort was based on keeping all the needles pointed to some number. For several pilots, I demonstrated how we could cover up the basic six and go around the patch with great confidence that the airplane was well inside normal operating envelopes. I encouraged folks to stick the cowl right on the horizon at full throttle and note the airspeed. Shorter pilots got smaller numbers, taller pilots got higher numbers. But none discovered a number that was any cause for alarm and all were within 5 mph of each other. Then I would demonstrate that you cannot stall the airplane without bringing the nose above the horizon at any power setting. So with the gages covered up we went around the patch 4 or 5 times and concentrated on that wonderful view of the Kansas countryside and other airplanes who were sharing the view with us. You don't have to cover the gages but you CAN spend some time in the airplanes you fly most to explore exactly what significance all those pointers have with respect to comfortable and confident operation of the airplane. Every pilot has to do the biennial check ride in accordance with the predictable and repeatable demonstration of those skills we were taught by our instructors. But the really competent pilot has (for lack of a better term) a certain amount of "oneness" with the machine. He/she is confident and competent in the operation of the airplane well inside the borders of limits envelopes without reference to the instruments. There's been some sentiments about the value in KNOWING the indicated airspeed while doing what ever it is that good pilots do to deal with a recently discovered icing condition. Okay, you're in some stable flight configuration of climb, cruise or descent and you discover an icing condition. What kinds of maneuvers would the good pilot conduct to make the situation better? Steep turns to do the fast 180? Reduce power? Increase power? Large changes in pitch? What ever the decision might be, which of those actions re-configure the airplane to the edge of the performance envelope with attendant increase in risk? The greatest risks for accumulation of ice come from a combination of increased weight, increased drag and altered airfoil performance. As I related in my previous story, ice collecting on the leading edge had the effect of a marked increase in stall speed. Okay, once you've got ice on the airplane, what does the properly functioning IAS indicator KNOW about departures in 'normal' numbers. Does the white arc change endpoints in concert with ice accretion to give the pilot a heads-up on those departures? We've read a lot of dark-n-stormy night stories about pilots who wiggled this, switched that, explored the other thing in some attempt to add to their knowledge of what's going wrong with an electrical system. Virtually all the stories only served to highlight the pilot's lack of understanding about how the system worked. In some cases, fiddling and twiddling made things worse. At the same time, while the pilot was playing the role of systems analyst, he was not being a competent pilot. The same hard, cold truths of life apply to an airplane that is found to be collecting ice. This is a SYSTEM FAILURE that may degrade to a un-recoverable departure if not addressed with a well considered plan-B. The idea that your otherwise friendly IAS indicator is a dependable tool in carrying out plan-B is problematic. You already KNOW that the airplane is going to slow down due to drag. You already KNOW that maintaining altitude will eventually become problematic due to weight and drag. You already KNOW that the numbers represented by the values at the bottom of the white arc cannot be trusted for the purposes of maneuvering close to while still avoiding a stall. You're well advised not to make changes in power settings or to conduct maneuvers that squander your performance envelope edge-margins especially when those edges are no longer predicable. Like flying in thunderstorms, flying in icing conditions is an environment where airspeed indications are unreliable and not terribly significant for avoiding the unforgiving and possibly terminal stall. Attitude and power changes that take you to the performance edges are demonstrably risky. I suggest that the prudent plan-B for icing does not depend on IAS indications. Even if the IAS system is working, the data displayed is purely informational . . . as is your GPS ground speed. It's no longer a finely calibrated tool for helping you put some tire-streaks on the numbers. IAS can only display trends. If the trend is in the wrong direction, then plan-B has failed you . . . and there's probably not much else to be done. You might also be surprised when the airplane falls out of the sky at 20 kts above the bottom of the white arc. The point to be considered exactly what value the displayed IAS data brings to the plan-B party. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TERRY MORTIMORE <terry.mortimore(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Feb 08, 2011
Subject: Re: Battery box being demanded
Hi Ray=2C I=27m curious as to how you got to be dealing with the DOT ins pector=3F If the MDRA inspector did the final inspection and the airplane was flyi ng=2C how did the DOT get involved=3F Any way of getting the DOT inspector out of the loop by going back to MD RA=3F ------------------------ ------------------------ --------------- Terry=2E ----- Original Message ----- From=3A Bill Boyd =3Csportav8r=40gmail=2Ecom=3E Date=3A Tuesday=2C February 8=2C 2011 1=3A04 pm Subject=3A Re=3A AeroElectric-List=3A Re=3A Battery box being demanded To=3A aeroelectric-list=40matronics=2Ecom =3E Ridiculous-sounding stuff on their part=2E- I=27m guessing that =3E later removal of =3E said battery box would not constitute a =22major change=2E=22- =3E More like ongoing =3E experimentation in your experimental aircraft=2E- Still a =3E hassle to build the =3E box in the first place=2E- When my pink Gill battery was =3E replaced by an =3E Odyssey=2C the loss of the battery box was not a reported =3E event=2E- So it shall =3E remain=2E =3E =3E -Bill B =3E =3E On Tue=2C Feb 8=2C 2011 at 11=3A44 AM=2C RayStL =3Craystl=40nbnet=2E nb=2Eca=3E wrote=3A =3E =3E =3E --=3E AeroElectric-List message posted by=3A =22RayStL=22 =3E =3Craystl=40nbnet=2Enb=2Eca=3E=3E =3E =3E Thanks for your help so far=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E Let me give more background=2E The aircraft has been flying for =3E over 3 years=2E =3E =3E The MDRA inspector was fine with the battery=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E My aircraft has been grounded since the inspection last =3E August=2E There were =3E =3E 2 issues they had=2E The battery is one=2E The second was becaus e =3E I have a =3E =3E variable pitch prop (Ivo) regulations say I need a manifold =3E pressure gauge=2E =3E =3E My engine is a =91modern=92 car engine that continuously measure s =3E manifold=3E pressure=2C throttle position=2C rpm=2C air temperature=2C =3E exhaust oxygen and uses =3E =3E that to control fuel and ignition=2E A separate manifold gauge =3E would be a =3E =3E distraction at best=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E Yes it would have been easier to knuckle under to their =3E inappropriate=3E requests=2E (I would like to Nuckolls them=2E Grrr=2E ) =3E =3E =3E =3E They finally relented on the manifold pressure issue=2E Only the =3E battery=3E issue remains=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E The easiest way is to find something approved that will fit in =3E their pigeon =3E =3E hole=2E Otherwise I have been told I have go through a full =3E technical analysis =3E =3E (and- test=3F) to justify it=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E On a homebuilt!!!=3F=3F=3F =3E =3E =3E =3E -------- =3E =3E Ray St-Laurent =3E =3E 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Read this topic online here=3A =3E =3E =3E =3E http=3A//forums=2Ematronics=2Ecom/viewtopic=2Ephp=3Fp=330169=23 330169 =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =========== =3E =========== =3E =========== =3E =========== =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 08, 2011
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Creative thievery
Bob's experience is not petty thievery. Wal-Mart back in 2007 had a theft problem approaching $3B: http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/224996 One of the reasons that employee may not have batted at eye is because employee theft and other theft is on the rise at Wal-Mart. My wife refuses to shop there, because there have been reported incidents at our local Wal-Marts, where employees have stolen credit card and WIC card info. I do like your link, though. We need to sheet can all of our politicians and start over. Henador Titzoff --- On Tue, 2/8/11, Ralph & Maria Finch wrote: > From: Ralph & Maria Finch <ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.com> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: OT: Creative thievery > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, February 8, 2011, 9:46 AM > --> AeroElectric-List message > posted by: "Ralph & Maria Finch" > > Far off topic, but you guys are all talking petty thievery. > The real crooks > legally steal our tax money, see video clip below: > > http://www.youtube.com/user/fiercefreeleancer > > > > AeroElectric-List Email Forum - > FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 08, 2011
From: Jae Chang <jc-matronics_aeroelectric(at)jline.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Creative thievery
Crime is on the rise here on the left coast, at least from my own personal experience. My beater car has been tinkered/broken into/messed with more frequency lately. Sigh. I would not be surprised if this crime wave is just another part of our Economic Stimulus Recovery Act! 1. A few months ago, someone cut the catalytic converter from underneath the truck => $600 2. A couple weeks ago, someone put a screwdriver into the lock keyhole => $100 or so stolen and who knows how much more to fix the lock 3. Finishing the airplane project so I can park in the garage => priceless! Jae ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 08, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: In defence of the eBay community
At 09:26 AM 2/8/2011, you wrote: >James, > > Rick Gerard is correct about eBay. I bought my King KT76 off > eBay, and it was >supposedly recently certified and came with a yellow tag. All this >was a lie!!! Gentlemen, let's not paint eBay with the brush of dishonorable behaviors. There are and will always be individuals of low character lurking in every community including eBay. I buy a LOT of stuff off eBay, I sell SOME stuff too. I jealously guard my 100% rating. Every honorable participant on eBay has a similar attitude toward keeping their "eBay Face" clean. I have never lost a dime on an eBay purchase that was not as advertised. In most cases, the seller refunded my money, in one case eBay refunded my money. eBay has a buyer protection program that goes beyond seller duties to make sure your eBay experience is not a bad one. You're not going to get useful data on relative robustness of any particular brand/model of radio here on the List or any other forum. There are just too many variables of environment, service stresses and user perception to expect well qualified advice. Talk to grey-beard service techs at your local avionics shop about models to avoid. They'll all know which products visit the shop too often or are difficult to repair. Check the sellers ratings. If there are negatives, go check out the wording of the complaint. Talk to the seller about it. Ask if there's a guarantee against dead on arrival. Forget the yellow tag thing. As soon as your purchase arrives, have it bench checked. Your eBay experience probably offers LESS risk than buying a similar product from the guy in the hangar next to yours. Agree up front about money back if the device proves un-serviceable to your needs. Your only risk is the bench time for a test which you'll have to spend whether or not the critter is A-OK. The reliable, credible eBay seller will work with you. He/she's not out to screw customers, else they would not achieve a high rating. Just agree on some ground rules before you bid. Living out in the boonies, I use eBay heavily to supply needs that go beyond the local Alco and Dollar General stores. It's not quite as convenient, but the products are delivered right to my door. Worries about getting cheated are non-existent. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re:Stereo Headsets
From: Kenneth Melvin <melvinke(at)coho.net>
Date: Feb 08, 2011
Tiger Performance Products did a great job on my helmet. Offer a wide range of helmet communications options. Kenneth Melvin, P51-D On Feb 8, 2011, at 10:09 AM, Franz Fux wrote: > > Hi , > I send a note the other day but did not get any response so I try again. > I have a Gentex Helmet for my RV7 that I would like to convert from mono to > stereo output to suit the PM3000 intercom in my plane. I am wondering if > anybody would know how to go about this, is there a kit that I could > purchase or is there a company out there that could help. > Thanks for any help > Franz > RV7 500h > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery box being demanded
From: "RayStL" <raystl(at)nbnet.nb.ca>
Date: Feb 08, 2011
MDRA is only involved in the building process. I had an engine failure at a controlled airport. That got DOTs attention (thats fair). The cause was from radiant heat cooking my fuel pumps (They have heat shields on them now). They did not snag the revised fuel pump setup but... The DOT inspector was somewhat annoyed that the MDRA inspector had not flagged the battery. It was clear the DOT inspector had never heard of a sealed lead acid battery, AGM, recombinant gas or any the synonym I could think of. --ray -------- Ray St-Laurent 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330196#330196 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: In defence of the eBay community
Date: Feb 08, 2011
> Gentlemen=2C let's not paint eBay with the brush of > dishonorable behaviors. There are and will always be > individuals of low character lurking in every community > including eBay. > Bob . . . Hi Bob=2C I hope no one took what I said about that lying SOB=2C who sold me a defective transponder as a reflection on eBay. It was just he that was a lowlife!!! This happened 10 years ago=2C too. I also mentioned I bought a Narco AT150 from a reputable dealer on eBay. I have well over 300+ positive transactions=2C and use eBay's services very frequently ( My wife says..."your daily package has arrived!!!") I have only had a couple of deliberately onerous transactions=2C and these were several years ago. Now=2C I adhere to the seller's feedback profile more=2C and I can honestly say I experience very few grievances=2C and even at that=2C they are fairly easy to resolve. (things like slow shipping=2C etc) The best feature I like about eBay is it's ability to expose you to thousands of examples of excellent buys=2C most of which you'd never have access to if eBay didn't exist. A recnet example was my find of heatshrink. I got a shopping bag full of the most popular sizes=2C all for $27. BTW=2C has any received an order of the heatshrink I recommended? Mike Welch ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 08, 2011
From: James Robinson <jbr79r(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: In defence of the eBay community
I completely agree with Bob on this one. I love the fact that I can get a rating of the seller before I deal with them. I have had better service than some local stores. If you have a bad experience let it be known. Jim James Robinson Glasairlll N79R Spanish Fork UT U77 ________________________________ From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 9:48:15 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: In defence of the eBay community At 09:26 AM 2/8/2011, you wrote: > James, > > Rick Gerard is correct about eBay. I bought my King KT76 off eBay, and it >was > supposedly recently certified and came with a yellow tag. All this was a >lie!!! Gentlemen, let's not paint eBay with the brush of dishonorable behaviors. There are and will always be individuals of low character lurking in every community including eBay. I buy a LOT of stuff off eBay, I sell SOME stuff too. I jealously guard my 100% rating. Every honorable participant on eBay has a similar attitude toward keeping their "eBay Face" clean. I have never lost a dime on an eBay purchase that was not as advertised. In most cases, the seller refunded my money, in one case eBay refunded my money. eBay has a buyer protection program that goes beyond seller duties to make sure your eBay experience is not a bad one. You're not going to get useful data on relative robustness of any particular brand/model of radio here on the List or any other forum. There are just too many variables of environment, service stresses and user perception to expect well qualified advice. Talk to grey-beard service techs at your local avionics shop about models to avoid. They'll all know which products visit the shop too often or are difficult to repair. Check the sellers ratings. If there are negatives, go check out the wording of the complaint. Talk to the seller about it. Ask if there's a guarantee against dead on arrival. Forget the yellow tag thing. As soon as your purchase arrives, have it bench checked. Your eBay experience probably offers LESS risk than buying a similar product from the guy in the hangar next to yours. Agree up front about money back if the device proves un-serviceable to your needs. Your only risk is the bench time for a test which you'll have to spend whether or not the critter is A-OK. The reliable, credible eBay seller will work with you. He/she's not out to screw customers, else they would not achieve a high rating. Just agree on some ground rules before you bid. Living out in the boonies, I use eBay heavily to supply needs that go beyond the local Alco and Dollar General stores. It's not quite as convenient, but the products are delivered right to my door. Worries about getting cheated are non-existent. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 08, 2011
Subject: Re: Pitot Heat
Good Afternoon Bob, For once I totally disagree with your premise. The heated pitot tube and a reliable airspeed indicator is a handy tool to have. If we subscribe to your thought, why bother having an airspeed indicator at all? When I soloed in the spring of 1946, I was flying a J-3 cub and I never saw the airspeed indicator until the instructor got out of the airplane and told me to take it around the patch three times then bring it over to the gas pit. When I fly my Stearman today, I rarely look at the airspeed. However, when I charge out for the West Coast in my Bonanza, I really like having an instrument that will tell me if I am not getting the airspeed indication I expect when flying at certain attitudes and power settings. It is not a "tell all" instrument, but it IS a handy thing to have and a heated pitot tube allows it to be reliable if I pick up a trace of ice while climbing or descending through a thin cloud layer. Ice is to be respected, but need not be feared if one understands the principle. Carburetor heat is handy to have, but the engine runs better if you can fly where it is not needed. The propellor will work better if you think to coat it with a good ice repellent than it will if you get a little more ice than planned while climbing or descending through that thin layer. The FAA tells us that we are expected to ask for a clearance out of the icing conditions if they are unexpectedly encountered. As long as we have planned a suitable exit strategy, no foul and no careless or reckless citation. I figure that if something as light weight and simple as a heated pitot tube or ice repellent on the prop gives me a small edge when unexpected icing conditions are encountered, it is a good thing. Avoiding that little piece of ice that may cause my airspeed indicator to become less reliable is well worth the trouble of installing a heated pitot tube and rubbing a bit of ice repellent on the propellor. I don't have a heated pitot tube on our Piper Pacer and it is flown IFR any time it is practical to do so. The airspeed is lost a lot and one of the things I will do if I ever find time to do it is add a heated pitot tube. I think my skill set will allow me to fly as well as any other pilot without an airspeed indicator, but why do so when it is so easy to have it working? Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 2/8/2011 12:16:55 P.M. Central Standard Time, nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com writes: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >I'm sure a 25000+ hour pilot can fly an airplane with only a compass >and an oil pressure gauge. But as a 200 hour wimpy VFR pilot, I'll feel safer. But a 50 hour pilot can learn. When I owned 1K1 I occasionally had an opportunity to ride around the patch with a new renter. Never encountered a pilot I wouldn't be willing to rent to. But virtually all were very panel-fixated in the pattern. Our little uncontrolled airport hosted numerous no-radio airplanes and we were a popular touch-n-go stop for other no-radio airplanes. I felt a lot better about the pilot who flew the airplane confidently with his head out of the cockpit as opposed to the ones whose comfort was based on keeping all the needles pointed to some number. For several pilots, I demonstrated how we could cover up the basic six and go around the patch with great confidence that the airplane was well inside normal operating envelopes. I encouraged folks to stick the cowl right on the horizon at full throttle and note the airspeed. Shorter pilots got smaller numbers, taller pilots got higher numbers. But none discovered a number that was any cause for alarm and all were within 5 mph of each other. Then I would demonstrate that you cannot stall the airplane without bringing the nose above the horizon at any power setting. So with the gages covered up we went around the patch 4 or 5 times and concentrated on that wonderful view of the Kansas countryside and other airplanes who were sharing the view with us. You don't have to cover the gages but you CAN spend some time in the airplanes you fly most to explore exactly what significance all those pointers have with respect to comfortable and confident operation of the airplane. Every pilot has to do the biennial check ride in accordance with the predictable and repeatable demonstration of those skills we were taught by our instructors. But the really competent pilot has (for lack of a better term) a certain amount of "oneness" with the machine. He/she is confident and competent in the operation of the airplane well inside the borders of limits envelopes without reference to the instruments. There's been some sentiments about the value in KNOWING the indicated airspeed while doing what ever it is that good pilots do to deal with a recently discovered icing condition. Okay, you're in some stable flight configuration of climb, cruise or descent and you discover an icing condition. What kinds of maneuvers would the good pilot conduct to make the situation better? Steep turns to do the fast 180? Reduce power? Increase power? Large changes in pitch? What ever the decision might be, which of those actions re-configure the airplane to the edge of the performance envelope with attendant increase in risk? The greatest risks for accumulation of ice come from a combination of increased weight, increased drag and altered airfoil performance. As I related in my previous story, ice collecting on the leading edge had the effect of a marked increase in stall speed. Okay, once you've got ice on the airplane, what does the properly functioning IAS indicator KNOW about departures in 'normal' numbers. Does the white arc change endpoints in concert with ice accretion to give the pilot a heads-up on those departures? We've read a lot of dark-n-stormy night stories about pilots who wiggled this, switched that, explored the other thing in some attempt to add to their knowledge of what's going wrong with an electrical system. Virtually all the stories only served to highlight the pilot's lack of understanding about how the system worked. In some cases, fiddling and twiddling made things worse. At the same time, while the pilot was playing the role of systems analyst, he was not being a competent pilot. The same hard, cold truths of life apply to an airplane that is found to be collecting ice. This is a SYSTEM FAILURE that may degrade to a un-recoverable departure if not addressed with a well considered plan-B. The idea that your otherwise friendly IAS indicator is a dependable tool in carrying out plan-B is problematic. You already KNOW that the airplane is going to slow down due to drag. You already KNOW that maintaining altitude will eventually become problematic due to weight and drag. You already KNOW that the numbers represented by the values at the bottom of the white arc cannot be trusted for the purposes of maneuvering close to while still avoiding a stall. You're well advised not to make changes in power settings or to conduct maneuvers that squander your performance envelope edge-margins especially when those edges are no longer predicable. Like flying in thunderstorms, flying in icing conditions is an environment where airspeed indications are unreliable and not terribly significant for avoiding the unforgiving and possibly terminal stall. Attitude and power changes that take you to the performance edges are demonstrably risky. I suggest that the prudent plan-B for icing does not depend on IAS indications. Even if the IAS system is working, the data displayed is purely informational . . . as is your GPS ground speed. It's no longer a finely calibrated tool for helping you put some tire-streaks on the numbers. IAS can only display trends. If the trend is in the wrong direction, then plan-B has failed you . . . and there's probably not much else to be done. You might also be surprised when the airplane falls out of the sky at 20 kts above the bottom of the white arc. The point to be considered exactly what value the displayed IAS data brings to the plan-B party. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "earl_schroeder(at)juno.com" <earl_schroeder(at)juno.com>
Date: Feb 08, 2011
Subject: In defence of the eBay community
Hi Mike, Yes, I have received the heat heatshrink about a week ago. My bill was ~$33 which was set before ordering with Lisa. They substituted a piece of green in the small size for one color but that's not a deal breaker.. . It all came in a box about 14x14x10 so it was 'wadded' up and some was flat instead of round but that's OK too.Earl ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com> BTW, has any received an order of the heatshrink I recommended? Mike Welch ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 09, 2011
From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl>
Subject: Re: Shorai LiFePO4
Actually, the battery being held at 14.5V is supposed to be the way the cells get balanced. The fully charged cells pass enough current to allow the laggards to become fully charged as well. While this is happening the fully charged cells have a somewhat elevated voltage across them. In the end all cells are fully charged and at 1/4 of the 14.5V applied and so they remain. A battery gets unbalanced cells when it is never allowed to sit at 14.5V long enough (so 8-hour trips should be perfect....). We keep our lead-acid batteries balanced the same way. But lead-acid cells conduct charging current much better when fully charged than LFP cells and balancing is much quicker. Some pictures of LFP cell characteristics: http://mvp090-1.104web.com.tw/cetacean/front/bin/ptdetail.phtml?Part=e40138f1 At 90% charge (60% of charging time) the constant volts charging current drops from 1C and is down to 0.02C when 100% of charge and time is reached. In the following report, among other tests, a cell is overcharged to destruction (page 28): http://www.lifebatt.com/sandiareport.pdf They force a 1C charging current into the fully charged cell. After 34 minutes it reaches 11V, loses continuity and vents at 110 'C. Maximum temperature at 160 'C is reached 20 minutes later. For this to happen in a real life battery charging situation the imbalance would have to be very extreme indeed. Still, I might want an alarm if any cell moved beyond 4 volts while the battery was kept at 14.5V. And maybe a location good for 200 'C with venting to the outside. In the meantime we can wait for the motorcyclists. Jan de Jong ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: heatshrink
Date: Feb 08, 2011
>It all came in a box about 14x14x10 so it was 'wadded' up and some was fla t instead of round but that's OK too. >Earl Hi Earl=2C Quite a pile of heatshrink for $33=2C huh? I have used quite a bit of mi ne (3 feet out of 1800)=2C and I have found it works very well. I got the same flat stuff in the larger sizes=2C too. Several of the 7mm sizes came as flat heatshrink. I think this is because some electronic devices c an print on it what the wire is for. Rolling the 10 meter long pieces into a bundle and securing them with a rubber band won't hurt a thing when it comes to shrink 'em!!! : ) Best to ya=2C Mike Hi Mike=2C ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 08, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Pitot Heat
At 04:33 PM 2/8/2011, you wrote: >Good Afternoon Bob, > >For once I totally disagree with your premise. > >The heated pitot tube and a reliable airspeed indicator is a handy >tool to have. "Handy" is not quantified or qualified. My premise is that there are times when accurate IAS improves on the pilot's ability to perform and reduces risks > >If we subscribe to your thought, why bother having an airspeed >indicator at all? I don't think you understood the thought . . . > >When I soloed in the spring of 1946, I was flying a J-3 cub and I >never saw the airspeed indicator until the instructor got out of the >airplane and told me to take it around the patch three times then >bring it over to the gas pit. > >When I fly my Stearman today, I rarely look at the airspeed. > >However, when I charge out for the West Coast in my Bonanza, I >really like having an instrument that will tell me if I am not >getting the airspeed indication I expect when flying at certain >attitudes and power settings. It is not a "tell all" instrument, but >it IS a handy thing to have and a heated pitot tube allows it to be >reliable if I pick up a trace of ice while climbing or descending >through a thin cloud layer. Okay, let's assume "handy" means "information useful for monitoring/trimming performance" > Ice is to be respected, but need not be feared if one understands > the principle. agreed > >Carburetor heat is handy to have, but the engine runs better if you >can fly where it is not needed. not relevant to my premise > >The propellor will work better if you think to coat it with a good >ice repellent than it will if you get a little more ice than planned >while climbing or descending through that thin layer. also not relevant to the premise If I perceive the concerns of our readers correctly, there are embedded notions that a heated pitot tube offers increased comfort for the reduction of risk (often called "safety"). The scenarios you've just described speak to matters of non-critical information that assist the pilot in fine-tuning or monitoring navigation or performance of the airplane. Same ideas apply to moving map displays, autopilots with every feature including the kitchen sink, etc. etc. But as pilots, we should be quite capable of getting from point A to point B with none of those accessories. Help me illustrate premise: Suppose you're cruising along in your C-172 with a heated pitot tube and you become aware of accumulating ice. Paint a scenario for the next few minutes of flight were the IAS display would (a) figure into your action plan or (b) cause you to change flight configuration with respect to attitude, altitude or power? Flip side of the same coin is to consider how your behaviors would be modified if the pitot tube were not heated and you found the needle stuck at the last good reading? How would you become aware that the IAS was stuck due to freezing? Once you confirm that particular failure, how would that information figure into subsequent actions. This is an exercise in failure mode effects analysis for the purpose of crafting a minimum risk plan-B. As you've pointed out, there are displays on the panel that provide data that beg timely response; other displays that are nice to know. Sometimes, both kinds of information comes from the same instrument. The information we seek now are when and how would IAS readings drive decisions that would reduce risk for extracting one's rear end from an icing situation? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
Subject: Unvented AGM?
Date: Feb 09, 2011
2/9/2011 Hello Fellow Builders, Ray St-Laurent wrote: "......an unvented AGM ......" One could debate the difference between a valve and a vent, but it might be a bit misleading to describe the valve equipped AGM batteries as being unvented. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRLA_battery 'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to gather and understand knowledge." ========================================================== Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery box being demanded From: "RayStL" <raystl(at)nbnet.nb.ca> An STC of an equivalent installation might be the easiest way to convince. I think that would be an unvented AGM inside the cabin. I see there are some under seat Cub STC's that might do. Does anyone have details. If so then I just need to convince him that my battery is equivalent to that specified. --ray -------- Ray St-Laurent 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Battery box being demanded
Date: Feb 09, 2011
I wonder why he stated to you the Section V standard... It doesn't jibe. I would ask him again to give the exact standard he wants followed. With that you can google Canadian Aviation Regulations and download the whole mess in PDF. The first number in the part he wants you to follow is usually written as a capitol roman numeral. The second number is either a 0 or a 2. If it is a 0 then it is a regulation. If it is a 2 it is a standard or method to fulfil the regulation. The third number is the subsection and then the decimal point. After the decimal point is the specific rules in the subsection. You can also read the cars in more of an organised mode at: http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/regserv/cars/menu.htm I agree with your assessment of the manifold pressure gauge but if they were really sticky on it you could have one installed easily. It the most it would have meant is drilling and welding a boss onto the intake manifold close to the throttle body... there is probably one there already. I think what he wants to see is a box capable of withstanding a +3G forward impact with the weight of the battery in it and also be able to contain the contents of the battery in the case of an accident. A normal covered plastic battery box... to fit and be properly secured should satisfy him. Crappy tire (a Canadian thing)could probably help. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RayStL Sent: February 8, 2011 1:14 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery box being demanded Thanks for your help so far. Let me give more background. The aircraft has been flying for over 3 years. The MDRA inspector was fine with the battery. My aircraft has been grounded since the inspection last August. There were 2 issues they had. The battery is one. The second was because I have a variable pitch prop (Ivo) regulations say I need a manifold pressure gauge. My engine is a modern car engine that continuously measures manifold pressure, throttle position, rpm, air temperature, exhaust oxygen and uses that to control fuel and ignition. A separate manifold gauge would be a distraction at best. Yes it would have been easier to knuckle under to their inappropriate requests. (I would like to Nuckolls them. Grrr.) They finally relented on the manifold pressure issue. Only the battery issue remains. The easiest way is to find something approved that will fit in their pigeon hole. Otherwise I have been told I have go through a full technical analysis (and test?) to justify it. On a homebuilt!!!??? -------- Ray St-Laurent 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330169#330169 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Creative thievery
From: "checkn6" <checkn6(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Feb 09, 2011
You want to hear another good one. Let's try Sporty's Pilot Shop. While placing an online order, you put your items into your cart, go through the checkout procedure and if you aren't watching the "system" automatically places a $10 chart into your order at the last moment in the hopes that you won't catch it. It is after all a useful item who doesn't want a current chart for their zip code? Sporty's makes a few extra bucks and deals with the upset people that catch them. I won't be back as there are too many other respectable pilot shops out there. I write this with personal knowledge as it just happened to me last week. I caught them after I paid with my card and then to "correct the mistake" they charged my card twice. Once with and once without the chart, of course they will refund the money but it gets held a while. Deceit is a terrible thing. Reminds me of an old proverb I once heard. "Greed for wealth and power, which no amount of wealth and power could ever satisfy, is a defect buried deep in human nature." Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330265#330265 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 09, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Unvented AGM?
At 08:30 AM 2/9/2011, you wrote: > >2/9/2011 > >Hello Fellow Builders, Ray St-Laurent wrote: "......an unvented AGM ......" > >One could debate the difference between a valve and a vent, but it >might be a bit misleading to describe the valve equipped AGM >batteries as being unvented. See here: > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRLA_battery EXCELLENT point. It might also be useful to note that VLRA batteries (unlike VENTED wet batteries) are approved for shipment in the mails and by ordinary commercial air freight without benefit of extra-ordinary packaging. I quote here 49 CFR 173.159(d): (d) A nonspillable wet electric storage battery is excepted from all other requirements of this subchapter under the following conditions: (1) The battery must be protected against short circuits and securely packaged; (2) For batteries manufactured after September 30, 1995, the battery and the outer packaging must be plainly and durably marked NONSPILLABLE or NONSPILLABLE BATTERY; and (3) The battery must be capable of withstanding the following two tests, without leakage of battery fluid from the battery: (i) Vibration test. The battery must be rigidly clamped to the platform of a vibration machine, and a simple harmonic motion having an amplitude of 0.8 mm (0.03 inches), with a 1.6 mm (0.063 inches) maximum total excursion must be applied. The frequency must be varied at the rate of 1 Hz/min between the limits of 10 Hz to 55 Hz. The entire range of frequencies and return must be traversed in 955 minutes for each mounting position (direction of vibrator) of the battery. The battery must be tested in three mutually perpendicular positions (to include testing with fill openings and vents, if any, in an inverted position) for equal time periods. That's a rather lengthy list of requirements that the OBAM aircraft builder shouldn't have to "prove" . . . but it illustrates the point that cells with no loose liquid that are not open to atmosphere have been demonstrated benign for all hazards short of gross damage. In normal or even abusive service, they cannot produce the hazards we used to associate with their liquid electrolyte ancestors. All of the legacy hazards calling for extra containment of gasses/liquids simply went away. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 09, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery box being demanded
>I think what he wants to see is a box capable of withstanding a +3G >forward impact with the weight of the battery in it and also be able >to contain the contents of the battery in the case of an >accident. A normal covered plastic battery box... to fit and be >properly secured should satisfy him. The crash safety hold-down rules here call for 10G of tear-away resistance for rearward acceleration. For a 25# SVLA this translates to 250 pounds of tensile strength for retainers. We did some studies on 6" strips of Velcro on 1" wide straps at HBC and measured tensile strengths in the many hundreds of pounds depending on how well the installer 'mashed' the fasteners together. On that basis, I've recommended several times in the past that SVLA batteries might be strapped down in shallow trays having lips on the order of 1/2" with two Velcro closed web-straps. This kind of attention would indicated if the battery were aft of crew space. If the battery is on the forward side of the firewall, it's not going to be a missile-hazard. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Transponder durability?
From: "Radioflyer" <skyeyecorp(at)airpost.net>
Date: Feb 09, 2011
As for durability, I don't know much, but one thing I would suggest you consider is whether the transponder is completely solidstate or whether it uses a cavitron tube. The glass cavitron tubes are supposed to be very expensive to replace when they fail. I've always thought the solidstate units startup faster and are more rugged or reliable. Maybe someone here can comment further one way or the other. As for ebay, maybe I've just been lucky or maybe I've practiced good common sense in my bids, but I've had good luck with aircraft stuff. I will say that I always carefully research the part I'm looking for and if the bidder's description, feedback or responses seem inconsistent, then no bid. And here is an offer...I have a Terra TRT250 transponder with tray and antenna connector. It has a "Return to Service" label from Terra dated 1995. More importantly, it has the mods 2 and 5 done to it, to comply with the latest AD on the unit. I bought the unit used several years ago for an Experimental because it is solidstate, and is still among the smallest, lightest transponders available. Unfortunately, the experimental never became mine, so I've never used it. It has a small rectangular face , but can be made to fit in a 3-1/8" instrument hole. I paid $650 for the unit and it is available for sale. --Jose Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330278#330278 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "glen matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re:Stereo Headsets
Date: Feb 09, 2011
I'll ask a friend at Gentex if he knows anything ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery box being demanded
From: "RayStL" <raystl(at)nbnet.nb.ca>
Date: Feb 09, 2011
Thanks to all have responded. From communications with the DOT inspector, it is clear that the quickest solution will be to reference a STC for a cub or similar that uses an underseat strap down of an AGM battery. I know Concorde has STCs but I have not tracked down yet if that includes elimination of the battery box. There is a broader, much more disturbing side to this issue. A DOT inspector wants to revoke approval for something that has already passed inspection. The installation has not changed. That means any (Canadian) homebuilt could theoretically revoke approval for any previously approved installation. It also unjustly (I believe) questions the validity of any previous inspection through MDRA. I know of other Canadian homebuilts using AGMs without battery boxes but I am not about to cite those as examples. --ray -------- Ray St-Laurent 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330294#330294 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 09, 2011
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Battery box being demanded
I am not familiar with how the Canadian system works, but I assume a bureaucrat is a bureaucrat. Perhaps the MDRA inspector that approved the initial inspection would be offended by the DOT inspectors implication that his work was in someway lacking. Perhaps he might be motivated to go to bat for you and for HIS reputation. The most likely way this will be resolved in your favor is if you can get someone else in the government to bring pressure on the DOT guy to change his opinion. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN On 02/09/2011 11:15 AM, RayStL wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RayStL" > > Thanks to all have responded. From communications with the DOT inspector, it is clear that the quickest solution will be to reference a STC for a cub or similar that uses an underseat strap down of an AGM battery. I know Concorde has STCs but I have not tracked down yet if that includes elimination of the battery box. > > There is a broader, much more disturbing side to this issue. A DOT inspector wants to revoke approval for something that has already passed inspection. The installation has not changed. That means any (Canadian) homebuilt could theoretically revoke approval for any previously approved installation. It also unjustly (I believe) questions the validity of any previous inspection through MDRA. > > I know of other Canadian homebuilts using AGMs without battery boxes but I am not about to cite those as examples. > > --ray > > -------- > Ray St-Laurent > 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330294#330294 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 09, 2011
Subject: Re: Battery box being demanded
From: Don Hudgeon <don(at)hudgeon.com>
Hi Ray I also have a "imported" homebuilt here in Canada and I hear what you are saying about the broader picture. Mine was inspected and signed off by the FAA a few years ago and again last year by MDRA inspector after I had completed the modifications required by Canadian standards (carb heat,fire extinguisher, markings,etc). I don`t think I would want it "reinspected" by DOT and be subjected to the wims of an inspector. As far as the battery is concerned though, I think it is a pretty good idea to have it in a securely mounted corrosion proof box just for your own good. I also installed a manifold pressure gauge when I put on the IVO IFA prop. Again, just one more simple device to monitor engine function. I plumbed it using vacuum hose from the balance tube between the carbs on my 912.Got the gauge from Wicks for about $50. I think most regulations are being applied for our own safety and reliability but sometimes get skewed by someones personal interpretation. Cheers Don On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 9:15 AM, RayStL wrote: > > Thanks to all have responded. From communications with the DOT inspector, > it is clear that the quickest solution will be to reference a STC for a cub > or similar that uses an underseat strap down of an AGM battery. I know > Concorde has STCs but I have not tracked down yet if that includes > elimination of the battery box. > > There is a broader, much more disturbing side to this issue. A DOT > inspector wants to revoke approval for something that has already passed > inspection. The installation has not changed. That means any (Canadian) > homebuilt could theoretically revoke approval for any previously approved > installation. It also unjustly (I believe) questions the validity of any > previous inspection through MDRA. > > I know of other Canadian homebuilts using AGMs without battery boxes but I > am not about to cite those as examples. > > --ray > > -------- > Ray St-Laurent > 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330294#330294 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Unvented AGM?
From: "RayStL" <raystl(at)nbnet.nb.ca>
Date: Feb 09, 2011
Thanks for the references guys. I believe there are some AGM batteries that have a 'vent' port designed to connect to a vent tube from an existing flooded cell battery box. The 'sealed' models with no port are most relevant to my situation. --ray -------- Ray St-Laurent 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330303#330303 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 09, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery box being demanded
> >As far as the battery is concerned though, I think it is a pretty >good idea to have it in a securely mounted corrosion proof box just >for your own good. What degree and style of "bad" would you expect to be held at bay by a "corrosion proof box"? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 09, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Unvented AGM?
At 12:59 PM 2/9/2011, you wrote: > >Thanks for the references guys. >I believe there are some AGM batteries that have a 'vent' port >designed to connect to a vent tube from an existing flooded cell >battery box. The 'sealed' models with no port are most relevant to >my situation. That 'vent' tube can be misleading. The VRLA is not a dry or gell battery. Liquid electrolyte is totally contained by capillary action in the fiberglas matting. When these batteries are abused (severe overcharge or discharge) heating internal to the cells will boil water and over- pressure the valve such that excess pressure is allowed to vent. So-called, "sealed" batteries are sealed only to the extent of the pressure relief setting of the valves in the vent holes. The sum total of vented gasses is very small in comparison with the kind of emissions one could get from the classic, vented wet battery. When the battery is abused to a degree that opens the valves, there is still no liquid water-acid emitted, only the mix of gasses disassociated from the small amount of water in the mat. There is a very tiny risk for explosion if the battery is mounted in an airtight container. The risk is not from BATTERY explosion but ignition of the escaped gasses not allowed to waft away in the local breeze. I think we hand some discussions here on the List years ago where I related my experience with a close call for having induced injury or worse to a customer who was using a design of mine that contained a VRLA battery. I also discussed an incident involving a BATTERY BOX explosion in a GlasAir. Had EITHER of these batteries been fitted with a vent-manifold and a tube leading overboard, it's a certainty that these two events would not have unfolded so violently. But be aware that such vent tubes have NOTHING to do with the conducting corrosive liquids overboard and everything to do with reduced risk for explosion. When a VRLA battery is fitted with a vent-tube fitting, the tube can only serve to collect all the gasses from cell vents during an over-pressure event. Functionally, the batteries are no more "sealed" or "vented" than their other commercial contemporaries. Identical risk reduction is achieved by not wrapping an SLVA battery up in an airtight enclosure. See: http://tinyurl.com/5v7f9gl Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 09, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: How the "other side" lives.
GE's90115BJetEngineForDelta'sNewB-777-200LR.wmv Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 09, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: How the "other side" lives (OOPS)
Oops! Lets try that again: http://tinyurl.com/5w49xrr Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery box being demanded
From: "RayStL" <raystl(at)nbnet.nb.ca>
Date: Feb 09, 2011
To answer Raymond's question: An MDRA inspector is not a civil servant. He is a volunteer. In my case he is also an AME whose livelihood depends on keeping this same DOT inspector happy. I have no doubt that this will eventually be resolved in my favor. If I can find an STC for a similar configuration, it will be done in 2 days. Otherwise I will have to make a full blown presentation before a tribunal that in a process I expect will take at least another 2 months. -------- Ray St-Laurent 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330315#330315 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Unvented AGM?
From: "RayStL" <raystl(at)nbnet.nb.ca>
Date: Feb 09, 2011
Hi Bob You might find this amusing. It is an excerpt of a message from the DOT inspector where he cherry picks words from the Power Sonic manual. The underlines are his. > Given the right set of circumstances, such as extreme overcharging or shorting of the battery, these gases might vent into the enclosure and create the potential for an explosion when ignited by a spark. Generally, ventilation inherent in most enclosures is sufficient to avoid problems. > > Potential hazards are present, as described by the battery Manufacturer, Power-Sonic. These hazards reflects a requirement to enclose the battery in a vented battery box to ensure aviation safety for other than "During normal operation". He also knows I have crowbar overvoltage protection so extreme overcharging is not possible. --ray -------- Ray St-Laurent 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330320#330320 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Fergus Kyle <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca>
Subject: D-sub screws
Date: Feb 09, 2011
Cheers, No matter how you number/letter them, the D-sub series connectors (plugs/sockets) have captured threaded screws which lock pairs together. Bob Nuckols=92 Aeroelectric connection described these as torments because the captured screws are often long thin (1/8=94) jobs witha screwdriver slot at the end which is often unassailable ' due mainly to confined spaces. He proposed replacing them (they are over here anyway, #4-40 threads on the bottom 12mm=1/2 of the screw) by a device which combines 4/40 threads with an extended =91nut=92 which is in effect a hex column anywhere from 12mm to 37mm in length and having either internal or external threads. They are variously called =91spacers=92 or =91standoffs=92 (when used to separate circuit boards usually one end Male and the other female) or=92 couplers =91 or =91coupling nuts=92 when used to join lengths of threaded rods. When the female end of the devices is populated with =BD=94 lengths of 4-40 rod it can replace the difficult screws (para 1 above) with a turning hex of 3/16=94 diameter ' so can be tightened or un- with a small wrench from the side or driven by a 3/16=94 socket from above. I need these because of the positioning of some of my D-sub plugs in difficult corners. Ah, but caution! If you are too follow this regimen by fabricating these jobs, make sure the 4-40 =91jackscrews/spacers/coupling nuts/standoffs=92 are 3/16=94 across BECAUSE they are often flogged with =BC=94 bodies and these latter sizes jam against the body of the plug and are unuseable.....! Best thoughts, Ferg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Copper Buss bar
Date: Feb 09, 2011
Anyone know where to buy a copper buss bar? I need a non-drilled one and another one that is drilled for breaker spacing. (I quess I could drill my own holes) Thanks in advance Barry Davis NX973BP N5166A N70610 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 09, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Copper Buss bar
At 04:04 PM 2/9/2011, you wrote: >Anyone know where to buy a copper buss bar? I need a non-drilled one >and another one that is drilled for breaker spacing. (I quess I >could drill my own holes) >Thanks in advance "Breaker spacing" is not necessarily standardized. Suggest you drill your own. See: http://www.mcmaster.com/#copper-bar-stock/=aymw4n http://tinyurl.com/5rfc7hl Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Copper Buss bar
From: simon(at)synchdes.com
Date: Feb 09, 2011
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Sender: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 15:40:39 Buss bar At 04:04 PM 2/9/2011, you wrote: >Anyone know where to buy a copper buss bar? I need a non-drilled one >and another one that is drilled for breaker spacing. (I quess I >could drill my own holes) >Thanks in advance "Breaker spacing" is not necessarily standardized. Suggest you drill your own. See: http://www.mcmaster.com/#copper-bar-stock/=aymw4n http://tinyurl.com/5rfc7hl Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Copper Buss bar
Date: Feb 09, 2011
Thanks Bob, Got it ordered and it will be delivered to me tomorrow Barry Davis _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 3:41 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Copper Buss bar At 04:04 PM 2/9/2011, you wrote: Anyone know where to buy a copper buss bar? I need a non-drilled one and another one that is drilled for breaker spacing. (I quess I could drill my own holes) Thanks in advance "Breaker spacing" is not necessarily standardized. Suggest you drill your own. See: http://www.mcmaster.com/#copper-bar-stock/=aymw4n http://tinyurl.com/5rfc7hl Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EMAproducts(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 09, 2011
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: Pitot heat- 02/08/11
I'm sure a 25000+ hour pilot can fly an airplane with only a compass and > an oil pressure gauge. But as a 200 hour wimpy VFR pilot, I'll feel > safer. I personally take offence at the off-handed remark. I once was a new pilot, have trained hundreds a CFI since '62 and I made no comments other than to agree with Bob, whom all respect or they wouldn't be on the list. Perhaps after you have made as many mistakes as I did early in my career you will realize there are very few old, bold pilots and enjoy your flying as much as I have the last 49 years. There have been very few regulations made without blood being shed. Elbie Mendenhall ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 09, 2011
Subject: Re:Stereo Headsets
From: Franz Fux <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com>
Thanks for your help Franz On 09/02/11 8:38 AM, "glen matejcek" wrote: > > > I'll ask a friend at Gentex if he knows anything > > > > > Franz Fux Director of Operations Last Frontier Heliskiing Ltd. Bell 2 Lodge P.O. Box 1237 Vernon, BC, V1T 6N6 CANADA Office Contact T: (250) 558-7980 F: (250) 558-7981 Lodge Contact T: (250) 275-4770 F: (250) 275-4912 http://www.bell2lodge.com --- LAST FRONTIER Heliskiing www.lastfrontierheli.com --- And for some of the best Steelhead Fishing in the world at Bell 2 Lodge www.steelhead-fishing.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 09, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Pitot heat
At 06:47 PM 2/9/2011, you wrote: > > >I'm sure a 25000+ hour pilot can fly an airplane with only a compass and > > an oil pressure gauge. But as a 200 hour wimpy VFR pilot, I'll feel > > safer. > >I personally take offence at the off-handed remark. Gently my friend, he was only voicing his personal trepidation no doubt borne out of a sense of his own ignorance and low position on the totumpole of experience. We were all there once. It's a fair bet that a 25K hour pilot has at least learned a few things that added to his/her longevity and made them eligible for admission to the priesthood. >. There have been very few regulations made without blood being shed. Indeed, that has ALWAYS been the overtly admitted goal for those-who-know-more-about- airplanes-than-we-do. And indeed, many regulations have obvious, demonstrable benefits . . . but not all . . . especially when misunderstood and misapplied. Witness the recent discussion on the need for adding battery boxes to SVLA batteries. I will suggest that there's an ever-increasing flood of regulations that have no relationship to anyone's loss of blood and a lot to do with empire building. I hypothesized a C-172 taking on ice . . . the pitot system IS heated and offers a degree of confidence. My invitation to the List was to consider how, and under what conditions the IAS indicator was useful for reducing risk. E.g. in a deteriorating situation, at what IAS number do you "get really concerned" and once that point is reached, what's the next step? I have further hypothesized that having a believable IAS reading under this scenario is of little or no value for reducing risks. By the time the airplane is sufficiently crippled as to produce an IAS value of concern, I've suggested that there is no action to take where precise IAS is useful feedback for good pilotage. Rather than taking whacks at our newby friend for voicing valid feelings, how can we team up with must be hundreds of thousands of hours of total experience on this List to reinforce, refute, or refine the basis for his feelings? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pitot heat
From: Matt Prather <mapratherid(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 10, 2011
Hey Mr. Nuckolls.. So, my question is, what do you do after the icing encounter? Say you've be en lucky (or prudent), and extricated yourself and the contents of the airpl ane from the icing conditions.. Now do you just have to go somewhere else a nd land and wait for the bird to dry/thaw? What if there's an alternate rou te available that avoids the icy conditions, but is less desirable for other reasons (around the mountain range vs over the pass)? Maybe you want to ga uge how much cruise speed the airplane has lost because of the ice. Certainl y GPS groundspeed can give you an idea about the remaining performance, but b eing able to cross check with IAS is nice. While I agree that a heated pit ot might give some people false confidence, it seems to me there's some util ity in one. Matt- On Feb 9, 2011, at 6:10 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelec tric.com> wrote: > At 06:47 PM 2/9/2011, you wrote: >> >> >> >> I'm sure a 25000+ hour pilot can fly an airplane with only a compass and >> > an oil pressure gauge. But as a 200 hour wimpy VFR pilot, I'll feel >> > safer. >> >> I personally take offence at the off-handed remark. > > Gently my friend, he was only voicing his > personal trepidation no doubt borne out > of a sense of his own ignorance and low > position on the totumpole of experience. > > We were all there once. It's a fair bet > that a 25K hour pilot has at least learned > a few things that added to his/her longevity > and made them eligible for admission to the > priesthood. > >> . There have been very few regulations made without blood being shed. > > Indeed, that has ALWAYS been the overtly > admitted goal for those-who-know-more-about- > airplanes-than-we-do. And indeed, many > regulations have obvious, demonstrable benefits > . . . but not all . . . especially when > misunderstood and misapplied. Witness the recent > discussion on the need for adding battery boxes > to SVLA batteries. > > I will suggest that there's an ever-increasing > flood of regulations that have no relationship > to anyone's loss of blood and a lot to do with > empire building. > > I hypothesized a C-172 taking on ice . . . > the pitot system IS heated and offers a degree of > confidence. My invitation to the List was to > consider how, and under what conditions the IAS > indicator was useful for reducing risk. E.g. > in a deteriorating situation, at what IAS number > do you "get really concerned" and once that point > is reached, what's the next step? > > I have further hypothesized that having a believable > IAS reading under this scenario is of little or > no value for reducing risks. By the time the airplane > is sufficiently crippled as to produce an IAS > value of concern, I've suggested that there is no > action to take where precise IAS is useful feedback > for good pilotage. > > Rather than taking whacks at our newby friend > for voicing valid feelings, how can we team > up with must be hundreds of thousands of hours > of total experience on this List to reinforce, > refute, or refine the basis for his feelings? > > Bob . . . > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pitot Heat
From: "tomcostanza" <Tom(at)CostanzaAndAssociates.com>
Date: Feb 10, 2011
> I'm sure a 25000+ hour pilot can fly an airplane with only a compass and > > an oil pressure gauge. But as a 200 hour wimpy VFR pilot, I'll feel > > safer. > I personally take offence at the off-handed remark. I once was a new > pilot, have trained hundreds a CFI since '62 and I made no comments other than > > to agree with Bob, whom all respect or they wouldn't be on the list. > Perhaps after you have made as many mistakes as I did early in my career you > will realize there are very few old, bold pilots and enjoy your flying as > much as I have the last 49 years. There have been very few regulations made > without blood being shed. > Elbie Mendenhall I apologize for my compliment. I would have sent a private email, but since the offense was made before the group, I thought the apology should be too. With respect, -Tom -------- Clear Skies, Tom Costanza Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330412#330412 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: GPS Jamming
Date: Feb 10, 2011
As you say it=99s their sand box but they still have to play by the rules they laid down. Noel From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Boyd Sent: February 8, 2011 2:39 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GPS Jamming I think it's only illegal if the FCC says it is. They can authorize whatever they want. The restrictions in Top Band to protect Loran-A were placed by the FCC, and were always subject to their whim. If the FCC allows 4G jammers into service, a lawsuit would have little standing that I can see. It's their sand box. We citizens play in it at their pleasure, or so they think. Which raises a question: should not 11 meters have been called "Subjects' Band?" Bill B On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:53 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: They will be shut down with the first lawsuit. It is illegal for anyone with or without a license to interrupt a radio signal. I expect there is further legislation preventing the jamming of navigational radio aids. There was very strict regulations regarding the operation of radio in the 160 Meter band because of the possibility of interfering with LORAN C. Noel From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: February 8, 2011 10:46 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: GPS Jamming Someone please tell me this is not true! Bill B FCC Approves GPS-jamming transmitters Federal Communications Commission gives the green light to 40,000 broadband transmitters that would cripple GPS navigation. 26 January 2011 =C3=A2=82=AC=9D The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) has approved a company called LightSquared Communications to install up to 40,000 high-powered, land-based broadband transmitters that broadcast in the band directly adjacent to the GPS frequencies. It has been found that these transmitters would have a disastrous effect upon aviation GPS receivers such as the popular Garmin GNS 430W. In testing, the receivers began to be jammed at 13.8 miles from each transmitter site, and navigation was effectively shut down at 5.6 miles from each site. Automotive units such as the Nuvi did a little better. The approval was moved rapidly through the approval process, and the approval was made despite industry representatives' pleas to evaluate the transmitters further. [ Read the Full Article <http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/news/data-shows-disastrous-gps-jammi ng-fcc-approved-broadcaster-11029?utm_source=GPS&utm_medium=email&utm _campaign=Navigate_01_31_2011&utm_content=data-shows-disastrous-gps-j amming-fcc-approved-broadcaster-11029> >> ] More information, including contact numbers for the lawmakers who are involved in the approval process can be found here: GPS Community Urged to Contact Congress <http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/news/gps-community-urged-contact-con gress-regarding-fcc-proposal-10962> . The FCC's Chief of the International Bureau, Mindel De La Torre, was not swayed by the protests of the GPS manufacturers; perhaps she would be influenced by a whole bunch of respectful, concerned citizens who wrote to her at <http://us.mc1117.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Mindel.DeLaTorre@fcc.gov > Mindel.DeLaTorre(at)fcc.gov, or called her office at 202-418-0437. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Battery box being demanded
Date: Feb 10, 2011
Sorry Guys but because of the original reverence ot CAR I thought the plane was Canadian... That accounts for the difference in what is in the reg. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys Sent: February 9, 2011 10:12 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery box being demanded I wonder why he stated to you the Section V standard... It doesn't jibe. I would ask him again to give the exact standard he wants followed. With that you can google Canadian Aviation Regulations and download the whole mess in PDF. The first number in the part he wants you to follow is usually written as a capitol roman numeral. The second number is either a 0 or a 2. If it is a 0 then it is a regulation. If it is a 2 it is a standard or method to fulfil the regulation. The third number is the subsection and then the decimal point. After the decimal point is the specific rules in the subsection. You can also read the cars in more of an organised mode at: http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/regserv/cars/menu.htm I agree with your assessment of the manifold pressure gauge but if they were really sticky on it you could have one installed easily. It the most it would have meant is drilling and welding a boss onto the intake manifold close to the throttle body... there is probably one there already. I think what he wants to see is a box capable of withstanding a +3G forward impact with the weight of the battery in it and also be able to contain the contents of the battery in the case of an accident. A normal covered plastic battery box... to fit and be properly secured should satisfy him. Crappy tire (a Canadian thing)could probably help. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RayStL Sent: February 8, 2011 1:14 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery box being demanded Thanks for your help so far. Let me give more background. The aircraft has been flying for over 3 years. The MDRA inspector was fine with the battery. My aircraft has been grounded since the inspection last August. There were 2 issues they had. The battery is one. The second was because I have a variable pitch prop (Ivo) regulations say I need a manifold pressure gauge. My engine is a modern car engine that continuously measures manifold pressure, throttle position, rpm, air temperature, exhaust oxygen and uses that to control fuel and ignition. A separate manifold gauge would be a distraction at best. Yes it would have been easier to knuckle under to their inappropriate requests. (I would like to Nuckolls them. Grrr.) They finally relented on the manifold pressure issue. Only the battery issue remains. The easiest way is to find something approved that will fit in their pigeon hole. Otherwise I have been told I have go through a full technical analysis (and test?) to justify it. On a homebuilt!!!??? -------- Ray St-Laurent 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330169#330169 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Battery box being demanded
Date: Feb 10, 2011
Ray try contacting Gary Wolfe president of the RAA. He may be able to help you as all the Canadian inspectors actually are RAA. There is also a yahoo group canultra.com which you may be able to contact him. Noel I'm now assuming the plane is here in Canada. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rayj Sent: February 9, 2011 2:15 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery box being demanded I am not familiar with how the Canadian system works, but I assume a bureaucrat is a bureaucrat. Perhaps the MDRA inspector that approved the initial inspection would be offended by the DOT inspectors implication that his work was in someway lacking. Perhaps he might be motivated to go to bat for you and for HIS reputation. The most likely way this will be resolved in your favor is if you can get someone else in the government to bring pressure on the DOT guy to change his opinion. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN On 02/09/2011 11:15 AM, RayStL wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RayStL" > > Thanks to all have responded. From communications with the DOT inspector, it is clear that the quickest solution will be to reference a STC for a cub or similar that uses an underseat strap down of an AGM battery. I know Concorde has STCs but I have not tracked down yet if that includes elimination of the battery box. > > There is a broader, much more disturbing side to this issue. A DOT inspector wants to revoke approval for something that has already passed inspection. The installation has not changed. That means any (Canadian) homebuilt could theoretically revoke approval for any previously approved installation. It also unjustly (I believe) questions the validity of any previous inspection through MDRA. > > I know of other Canadian homebuilts using AGMs without battery boxes but I am not about to cite those as examples. > > --ray > > -------- > Ray St-Laurent > 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330294#330294 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Battery box being demanded
Date: Feb 10, 2011
Just for the Americans reading this it is actually TC (Transport Canada) which does the licensing. An AME is not an Aviation Medical Examiner but an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer. The inspections of homebuilt aircraft have been removed form TC in an attempt to free up their inspectors time for larger aircraft. The Inspectors are actually appointed members of the Canadian RAA ( Recreational Aircraft Association) Noel I've gone back to my original idea that the plane is Canadian so there is a fool up in the part the inspector quoted. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RayStL Sent: February 9, 2011 3:43 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery box being demanded To answer Raymond's question: An MDRA inspector is not a civil servant. He is a volunteer. In my case he is also an AME whose livelihood depends on keeping this same DOT inspector happy. I have no doubt that this will eventually be resolved in my favor. If I can find an STC for a similar configuration, it will be done in 2 days. Otherwise I will have to make a full blown presentation before a tribunal that in a process I expect will take at least another 2 months. -------- Ray St-Laurent 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330315#330315 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pitot heat
Date: Feb 10, 2011
From: "George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 505 TRS/DOJ" <Neal.George(at)hurlburt.af.mil>
I think y'all are still missing the point. With the airplane picking up ice, the stall speed changes with the accretion. The type of ice, shape, amount and location all affect the performance of the aircraft. You won't find performance parameters for your iced-up airframe in the POH. A few things you don't know - CAN'T know - with ice on the airframe: 1) How much ice is on the airplane? Quantify it. 2) What does the ice weigh? Again, hard numbers. 3) How fast is the ice accumulating? 4) When will the weight of ice push the airplane over gross weight? 5) When will the airplane stop flying because of the ice it has accumulated? 6) With x amount of ice on the airframe, what's the stall speed? Let's imagine Capt Super Stud bores thru a low cloud with OAT in the teens and finds some ice. Doesn't really matter what kind of ice - it's sticking to the airframe and accumulating. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and a little luck and say there's a runway close and straight ahead and he's smart enough to choose to land. It's VFR at pattern altitude, so he joins the downwind for a standard pattern - got it made, no sweat. 80-kts on downwind, 70-kts on base, and he falls out of the base-to final turn because the ice has changed his stall speed. The point is, an accurate indicated airspeed is of little use where it matters - near the stall end of the envelope - if you don't know what the stall speed is in the airplane's current iced-up condition. neal -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Prather Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 6:43 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot heat Hey Mr. Nuckolls.. So, my question is, what do you do after the icing encounter? Say you've been lucky (or prudent), and extricated yourself and the contents of the airplane from the icing conditions.. Now do you just have to go somewhere else and land and wait for the bird to dry/thaw? What if there's an alternate route available that avoids the icy conditions, but is less desirable for other reasons (around the mountain range vs over the pass)? Maybe you want to gauge how much cruise speed the airplane has lost because of the ice. Certainly GPS groundspeed can give you an idea about the remaining performance, but being able to cross check with IAS is nice. While I agree that a heated pitot might give some people false confidence, it seems to me there's some utility in one. Matt- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 10, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Pitot heat
At 07:42 AM 2/10/2011, you wrote: Hey Mr. Nuckolls.. So, my question is, what do you do after the icing encounter? Say you've been lucky (or prudent), and extricated yourself and the contents of the airplane from the icing conditions.. Now do you just have to go somewhere else and land and wait for the bird to dry/thaw? What if there's an alternate route available that avoids the icy conditions, but is less desirable for other reasons (around the mountain range vs over the pass)? Maybe you want to gauge how much cruise speed the airplane has lost because of the ice. Certainly GPS groundspeed can give you an idea about the remaining performance, but being able to cross check with IAS is nice. While I agree that a heated pitot might give some people false confidence, it seems to me there's some utility in one. Yes, there's 'utility' or as Bob suggested, 'handiness'. My premise was that IAS is not high on the list of data items that drive risk reducing behavior . . . i.e. increase in safety under icing conditions. GPS is the system used to calibrate IAS and ground speed is going to be much more useful for determining ETA to an alternate airport than IAS . . . working well or not. Once you've arrived at a comfortable alternate, and your airplane is still carrying ice, my personal experience suggests that IAS, working or not, is still a shakey foundation for executing a graceful arrival. My approach would arrive over the numbers flat and fast . . . fly it on and concentrate on holding directional control as opposed to the customary quest for a 'greaser'. Once the airplane is iced up, the rules by which we normally conduct comfortable flight are changed. Further, the new rules are relatively unknown to the pilot who seldom, if ever, encounters the situation. Lessons learned from my one and only encounter were profound. No doubt there are individuals in our numbers who have encountered icing conditions numerous times and have acquired comfort levels consistent with their experience in their choice of airplanes. My question to the List goes to the notion of advising our 200 hour VFR friend that having a heated pitot offers any quantum improvements in risk-reduction. The simple-ideas under which ice, airplanes, instrumentation and pilots interact do not seem to support the advice. In my own experience, I was using good IAS data right down to the point where the airplane suddenly refused to fly. But I'd be pleased to be corrected if that deduction can be shown to be in error. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 10, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Unvented AGM?
At 02:44 PM 2/9/2011, you wrote: Hi Bob You might find this amusing. It is an excerpt of a message from the DOT inspector where he cherry picks words from the Power Sonic manual. The underlines are his. Given the right set of circumstances, such as extreme overcharging or shorting of the battery, these gases might vent into the enclosure and create the potential for an explosion when ignited by a spark. Generally, ventilation inherent in most enclosures is sufficient to avoid problems. . . . the corollary to the last statement is that you can't get any better ventilation than to have no enclosure whatsoever. Some months ago we were considering this particular example of a 'battery failure'. http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Batteries/Odyssey_OV/Odyssey_OV_1.jpg Some folks jumped on the swollen case and decided that what ever value the over-pressure protection was set for, this photo proved that it was "too low." The investigator did tests on the un-damaged over-pressure safety valves and found them well in specification. The observed swelling was a function of heating plus swelling of the battery's innards long after the moisture had departed the battery though the valves. This failure mode indicates a PROTRACTED exposure to an overvoltage condition by a power source capable of considerable energy (60+ amp alternator?). But this poor puppy was never at risk for root cause of any sort of 'explosion'. Potential hazards are present, as described by the battery Manufacturer, Power-Sonic. These hazards reflects a requirement to enclose the battery in a vented battery box to ensure aviation safety for other than "During normal operation". He is demonstrably oblivious of the finer points of how this new technology functions . . . and how it behaves when driven to failure. I used to have a VERY good working relationship with a lady who worked at the Navy's battery testing facilities in Crane, Indiana. I don't recall what her job title was . . . maybe never knew it. But she had been there a long time and observed a great deal of the proceedings in her facility with interest and understanding. Best yet, she was willing to share. I can recall conversations that might have lasted HOURS. She was a encyclopedia of first-hand information about the past, present and future of battery technologies. You think the FAA has an inordinate interest in behaviors of batteries under duress, you should hear what the Navy expects! The last time we talked, I had to call her at home where she was under hospice care for a terminal bout of cancer. I was glad I could inform her of a very high stature amongst many of my valued teachers. It's a disturbing observation that so many individuals with power over our lives are so ill prepared to execute those jobs with reason and competence. It follows that the execution of those duties do not add value . . . and in fact tax value out of our willingness and ability to do the best we know how to do. We all wish you good fortune . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 10, 2011
Subject: Re: Battery box being demanded
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net>
On 02/09/2011 10:42 AM, n801bh(at)netzero.com wrote: > In my experimental I used the group 24 box shown here. > <http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=102091&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=10109&subdeptNum=10548&classNum=10551> For what it is worth, I saw what appeared to be the same battery box at Walmart last night for $6.94. -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Please use Netiquette Guidelines http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 Kindly TRIM your email replies and post AFTER the relevant text ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pitot Heat
From: "tomcostanza" <Tom(at)CostanzaAndAssociates.com>
Date: Feb 10, 2011
> My question to the List goes to the notion of > advising our 200 hour VFR friend that having a > heated pitot offers any quantum improvements in > risk-reduction. Perhaps I wasn't clear in my post. I wasn't in icing conditions. Conditions were CAVU. The iced pitot was caused by moisture, liquid on the ground, ice after takeoff. There was no ice anywhere else. So my only comment was that I'd rather land with an airspeed indicator than without one. My cost was $25 for a used heated pitot, about $10 for a switch, plus a few feet of wire. If the cost/benefit was calculated with a $600+ new heated pitot, I may have decided differently. I'll stipulate that I should be able to land safely without one. But when you look at accident reports, one thing that usually stands out is that there was a chain of events leading to the accident. Break the chain, and you would probably avoid the event. Landing without an airspeed indicator is a distraction I can easily avoid. -------- Clear Skies, Tom Costanza Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330441#330441 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 10, 2011
Subject: Re: Pitot heat
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net>
On 02/10/2011 09:38 AM, George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 505 TRS/DOJ wrote: > 80-kts on downwind, 70-kts on base, and he falls out of the base-to final turn because the ice has changed his stall speed. > > The point is, an accurate indicated airspeed is of little use where it matters - near the stall end of the envelope - if you don't know what the stall speed is in the airplane's current iced-up condition. So assume Captain Super Stud realizes that his stall speed is affected, and elects to maintain 90 kts on final because he is able to fly the plane at 90kts (he just tested this on the downwind leg). Could he do this without a working airspeed indicator? Possibly if he had a working GPS onboard. However, by using GPS now you've thrown another variable into the equation and another thing to deal with that the pilot might not be familiar with (trying to fly the plane with GPS indicated speed rather than the normal airspeed indication, and the fact that GPS indicates ground speed not airspeed). It is just one more thing to add to what is probably already a stressful situation. Better to do a quick comparison prior to pattern entry of the airspeed indicator to the GPS indicated speed to make sure it is working, and then use the normal instruments for landing to reduce pilot workload. IMHO a heated pitot is like insurance. You hope you never have to use it, but it sure is handy when you do. In this case, it is pretty cheap insurance, too. -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Please use Netiquette Guidelines http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 Kindly TRIM your email replies and post AFTER the relevant text ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 10, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Pitot heat
> So assume Captain Super Stud realizes that his stall speed > is affected, >and elects to maintain 90 kts on final because he is able to fly the >plane at 90kts (he just tested this on the downwind leg). Could he do >this without a working airspeed indicator? > Better to do a quick >comparison prior to pattern entry of the airspeed indicator to the GPS >indicated speed to make sure it is working, and then use the normal >instruments for landing to reduce pilot workload. Is that your advice to the 200 hr VFR pilot? Put on your CFI hat. Consider that the things we're taught in the 40-hr holy-watered curriculum are the things that work 100% of the time based on panel displays and views out the window that are not contaminated by an un-calibrated tightening of the airplane's performance envelope. It's much easier to hypothesize a course of action based on our personal experiences and understanding of how things work. But how would you advise a pilot with an extension to that 40 hr curriculum? How would you demonstrate a process and then test the student for competency to carry out that process? How about: No pattern flight. No impromptu "flight testing". Straight in. Keep nose well below horizon. If you cross the numbers at 100+kts (GPS or IAS) the probability of a controlled arrival with the concrete is high. Now the skill to be cultivated is directional control during a higher speed roll out. Do you NEED a working speed indicator to accomplish this maneuver? Which thought process and procedure has the highest likelihood of a comfortable outcome? I don't think anyone proposes to discourage anyone from having pitot heat or any other gee-whiz. The goal is to QUANTIFY the risk-reduction value for having a heated pitot. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 10, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Pitot Heat
> Landing without an airspeed indicator is a distraction I can easily avoid. I've had one loss-of-airspeed experience. Turned out to be a spider nest. Initial indication was that I was using a LOT more runway to accelerate to take-off speed. I tentatively tested the airplane's willingness to fly and it hopped right off. Climb out was cautiously low in deck angle and I was still pondering what was going on. Pretty soon, IAS indications were more 'normal' and I turned attention to other piloting issues. A few minutes later leveled at 8K or so, IAS was showing 190kts in a 140 horse Cherokee! Okay, IAS is snorked. Now what? Land? Call back to the FBO to bring me a replacement airplane? AAA wasn't answering the phone that day. We completed our trip out and returned the next day without discomfort after sorting out all the indications and developing a plan-B. I'll suggest that your chances of loss of IAS data due to effects OTHER than icing are far greater. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: Re: Pitot heat
Date: Feb 10, 2011
> > > > > > Which thought process and procedure has the > highest likelihood of a comfortable outcome? > I don't think anyone proposes to discourage anyone > from having pitot heat or any other gee-whiz. > The goal is to QUANTIFY the risk-reduction value > for having a heated pitot. > > Bob . . . > With due respect Bob, there are some things in life that are NOT QUANTIFIABLE. And this is one of them. Like someone said, this is like insurance! Some of us value it, other don't. Since this is a VERY subjective issue, neither is it quantifiable, nor anyone of those in this List from both sides of the barricade will be convinced by the other's arguments. Carlos ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery box being demanded
From: "RayStL" <raystl(at)nbnet.nb.ca>
Date: Feb 10, 2011
I just sent my (latest) reply off to the DOT inspector. I found ST02156AK which is an STC for supercubs. It allows for the installation of an underseat sealed battery (Odyssey) to replace the original battery and battery box. That should be enough justification. For the supercub case, considering the shorter and smaller cables it saves 16 pounds. Thanks for all your ideas and suggestion. I'll let you know what happens. --ray -------- Ray St-Laurent 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330480#330480 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 10, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Pitot heat
> > >With due respect Bob, there are some things in life that are NOT QUANTIFIABLE. >And this is one of them=85 Like someone said, this >is like insurance! Some of us value it, other don=92t. Which is exactly the point my friend. An IAS indicator is sold to us as a highly quantified display: "Thou shalt not snub thy airspeed indicator lest ye be cursed with untenable surprises." Once the numbers have been elevated to celestial significance it seems only natural that we protect the integrity of those numbers with what ever means are available to us. The point is that no mater how good your speed numbers are, there are other other factors (thanks Neal) that degrade the celestial status of the best numbers. Heated pitot tubes protect numbers whose values are no longer celestial due to effects of the same ice we drove off the tube with heaters. > >Since this is a VERY subjective issue, neither >is it quantifiable, nor anyone of those in this >List from both sides of the barricade will be >convinced by the other=92s arguments. Who is trying to convince anyone of anything? The utility and usefulness of accurate IAS is NOT a subjective issue. The simple-ideas that drive IAS indications and aerodynamic performance of airplanes are hard, cold fact. As successful pilots, we strive to connect every combination of simple-ideas into a plan of operation completely independent of personal perceptions, fondest wishes or misunderstanding of the physics. I'm sorry if you're feeling barricaded. This isn't about changing your mind about whether or not to have a heated pitot tube. It's about crafting a works-99%-of-the-time plan for putting an iced airplane on the ground. How would you advise use of IAS readings for what might be a pilot's very first tense experience with ice? Yeah, I've seen the pictures and read the stories from pilots to lived to tell about it. Many more did not. When the crews get out to the pile of bent aluminum, the ice is often melted. Nobody is left to tell us how they screwed up shooting a 60 Kt approach with a perfectly believable IAS display that was heated for additional SAFETY. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 10, 2011
Subject: Re: Pitot heat
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net>
On 02/10/2011 11:37 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > Is that your advice to the 200 hr VFR pilot? Put > on your CFI hat. Actually, it is absolutely the advice I'd give a low time pilot. Putting on a CFI hat, the best possible thing to do for a low time pilot is to give them an environment that they are familiar with. The more "out of the ordinary" things you throw at them, the higher the chances that they will mess up the landing. Think about the scenario that you painted in previous emails. You have a low time pilot that inadvertently ended up in icing conditions, and there is visible ice on the airframe. The flying characteristics of the plane have changed due to the ice, and the pilot does not know exactly how they have changed. We have some "Top Gun Tough" pilots, but there is a good chance that a pilot in this situation is going to be somewhat shaken, or at least have increased anxiety. While this pilot is preoccupied with "flying the plane" to get it to a safe landing, would you rather throw yet another workload item for them to deal with (ie, using GPS speed instead of airspeed), or allow them to use the very familiar scan with the airspeed indicator that they've been using all along? Remember, low time pilot. I submit that it is safer to allow the pilot to use the tools and techniques that are familiar, and not throw more unknowns into the situation if it is at all possible to do so. That would include flying a normal pattern to get them comfortable with the approach and mentally prepare them for landing, but fly it at an increased speed that they already know the airplane will fly at. Change as few things as possible, and only those that are necessary for the safety of the flight. For example, I'd recommend not lowering the flaps since you don't know what affect that might have. We should all be able to land an airplane without any speed indication at all, especially if that were the only thing you were concerned about. However, with an iced up airframe and completely unknown flight characteristics, a relatively inexperienced and possibly scared pilot, and a strong desire to get the plane on the ground, there is no need to add the additional stress of an iced over pitot tube when it is relatively easy and cheap to prevent it. -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Please use Netiquette Guidelines http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 Kindly TRIM your email replies and post AFTER the relevant text ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lynn Riggs" <riggs_la(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pitot heat
Date: Feb 10, 2011
I have had an icing experience in a U6A on an IFR flight plan. Icing conditions were not forecasted but I started picking up ice on climb out. I was able to climb above the cloud layer so the icing stopped but I did not lose any ice either. As I descended for approach I picked up more ice. As the ice accumulated the air speed decreased so I added decrease in airspeed to my approach speeds plus a safety factor of a few knots. When I landed the stall speed was about what I expected it to be. If I did not have a heat pitot tube what turned out to be just a stressful event could have turned into a disaster. I would not own a aircraft without a heated pitot tube. I have had experiences where pitot tube ice but there was no sign of structural icing. It is just not worth the risk of not installing a heated pitot tube and needing it just once. Lynn Riggs, Maj Ret USA AVN -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 505 TRS/DOJ Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 8:39 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot heat I think y'all are still missing the point. With the airplane picking up ice, the stall speed changes with the accretion. The type of ice, shape, amount and location all affect the performance of the aircraft. You won't find performance parameters for your iced-up airframe in the POH. A few things you don't know - CAN'T know - with ice on the airframe: 1) How much ice is on the airplane? Quantify it. 2) What does the ice weigh? Again, hard numbers. 3) How fast is the ice accumulating? 4) When will the weight of ice push the airplane over gross weight? 5) When will the airplane stop flying because of the ice it has accumulated? 6) With x amount of ice on the airframe, what's the stall speed? Let's imagine Capt Super Stud bores thru a low cloud with OAT in the teens and finds some ice. Doesn't really matter what kind of ice - it's sticking to the airframe and accumulating. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and a little luck and say there's a runway close and straight ahead and he's smart enough to choose to land. It's VFR at pattern altitude, so he joins the downwind for a standard pattern - got it made, no sweat. 80-kts on downwind, 70-kts on base, and he falls out of the base-to final turn because the ice has changed his stall speed. The point is, an accurate indicated airspeed is of little use where it matters - near the stall end of the envelope - if you don't know what the stall speed is in the airplane's current iced-up condition. neal -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Prather Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 6:43 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot heat Hey Mr. Nuckolls.. So, my question is, what do you do after the icing encounter? Say you've been lucky (or prudent), and extricated yourself and the contents of the airplane from the icing conditions.. Now do you just have to go somewhere else and land and wait for the bird to dry/thaw? What if there's an alternate route available that avoids the icy conditions, but is less desirable for other reasons (around the mountain range vs over the pass)? Maybe you want to gauge how much cruise speed the airplane has lost because of the ice. Certainly GPS groundspeed can give you an idea about the remaining performance, but being able to cross check with IAS is nice. While I agree that a heated pitot might give some people false confidence, it seems to me there's some utility in one. Matt- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob Sultzbach <endspeed(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pitot heat
Date: Feb 11, 2011
Hi guys, I have lost at least two and I believe three pitot systems in my career of flying. The first time I felt cold adrenaline and fear going down my spine, so it kind of gets your attention when the airspeed starts bleeding down to zero. All were heated systems in a jet ironically enough. There is nothing that can take the place of training to remedy this scenario. You MUST go out on a VFR day with a plan to learn some basic attitude flying. What pitch attitude, power setting and configuration give you a desired performance. I know 450 feet per minute descent, flaps 20 and 15 inches of power will hold a 3 degree glideslope at 90 knots in my old 182. That would be a nice speed to fly to a suitable runway. In some heavy icing situations I would approach at cruise speed or at least the lowest known flyable speed and land on a long runway. Remember, if you find yourself in this scenario, you are a test pilot and that nice, docile Cessna could have the slow speed handling characteristics of the Space Shuttle. Don't change flap settings. Don't slow down until a safe landing is assured even if it has to shutdown O'Hare International! Ice avoidance and aircraft knowledge will keep you safer than pitot heat. But I do plan on pitot heat for my aircraft. Safe flying, Bob S. P.S. Angle of attack indicators are a fine backup for a pitot system should a pitot tube suddenly be clogged by bugs or mud but icing COULD take out the ASI and AOA gauge. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vern Little" <sprocket@vx-aviation.com>
Subject: Re: Battery box being demanded
Date: Feb 10, 2011
Thanks for the hard work on this Ray, it's a great service to a lot of homebuilders having to face down Transport or the MD-RA. Vern -----Original Message----- From: RayStL Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 10:38 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery box being demanded I just sent my (latest) reply off to the DOT inspector. I found ST02156AK which is an STC for supercubs. It allows for the installation of an underseat sealed battery (Odyssey) to replace the original battery and battery box. That should be enough justification. For the supercub case, considering the shorter and smaller cables it saves 16 pounds. Thanks for all your ideas and suggestion. I'll let you know what happens. --ray -------- Ray St-Laurent 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330480#330480 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pitot heat
Date: Feb 10, 2011
From: "George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 505 TRS/DOJ" <Neal.George(at)hurlburt.af.mil>
Actually, it is absolutely the advice I'd give a low time pilot. Putting on a CFI hat, the best possible thing to do for a low time pilot is to give them an environment that they are familiar with. ============== I expressed it poorly, but it's my contention it is exactly that familiar environment that gets our subject pilot killed. With pitot heat on and accurate airspeed indications, our pilot is in the klag gathering ice. Descending to land, he breaks out of the cloud deck and anxiety levels drop dramatically - simply because he can see, but nothing else about his predicament has changed. But it's still cold and the airframe is not shedding ice - or maybe it's "warm", but the airframe is not shedding ice fast enough to be clean before he turns final. Our young pilot gets himself established on the 45-deg entry leg and relaxes - got it made. He's back in a familiar environment and reverts to his primal training and rote memory of the POH performance charts. And those charts don't apply to his iced airframe. A heated pitot might ensure that the ASI continues to function; maybe - are the static ports heated, too? Even if the ASI is displaying accurate data, the data is not useful because the airframe is altered from its "tested, approved and published" configuration. neal ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 10, 2011
Subject: Re: Pitot heat
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net>
On 02/10/2011 03:48 PM, George, Neal E Capt USAF ACC 505 TRS/DOJ wrote: > I expressed it poorly, but it's my contention it is exactly that > familiar environment that gets our subject pilot killed. Let me offer an example: Q. Why is it that accident rates are higher for pilots transitioning to a new (to them) aircraft? A. Because it is different from what they are used to, and is why insurance companies require transition training with an instructor before allowing solo flight. > Our young pilot gets himself established on the 45-deg entry leg and > relaxes - got it made. He's back in a familiar environment and reverts > to his primal training and rote memory of the POH performance charts. I can't speak for any other pilot than myself, but I would not be relaxed until I had the plane safely on the ground with the engine shut down at my parking spot. Knowing that the airframe is iced, I can't imagine anyone simply going back to rote and doing everything exactly the same as an everyday landing, unless that person is completely clueless and in which case they should probably not be piloting an aircraft (and probably won't be for long...). One or two things different and most pilots can probably handle it. Keep adding different items, and eventually the pilot gets to a point where they can no longer handle it, which is now approaching the case where someone is transitioning to a new aircraft. The idea is to only change the things that have to change for the safety of the flight, and keep everything else as close as possible to the same so it does not add additional distractions to flying the plane. > A heated pitot might ensure that the ASI continues to function; maybe - > are the static ports heated, too? Indeed, which is why I mentioned comparing airspeed to GPS speed to verify its working condition. Does the plane have an alternate internal static port? If not, we were taught to smash the VSI to make one. That would be hard to do with a glass panel, but chances are likely if you are building a plane with an EFIS you are probably also installing an alternate static port. > Even if the ASI is displaying > accurate data, the data is not useful because the airframe is altered > from its "tested, approved and published" configuration. I strongly disagree - knowing the airspeed is VERY useful. Otherwise, our low time inexperienced pilot might slow to 50 kts without even knowing it. It seems we have enough statistics to show that pilots have enough problems with the base to final turn WITH a working airspeed indicator, let alone without one. -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Please use Netiquette Guidelines http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 Kindly TRIM your email replies and post AFTER the relevant text ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob Lee" <flyboybob1(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pitot heat
Date: Feb 10, 2011
As Bob K so aptly stated: <<"Thou shalt not snub thy airspeed indicator lest ye be cursed with untenable surprises.">> This is the dogma that is taught at every flight school and reinforced at every Biannual Flight Review. Unfortunately, it's a hoaks! Aircraft don't stall at a particular airspeed, they stall at a specific angle of attack. If you don't agree with me just roll in a 45 degree bank and haul back to your aircraft's stall speed. Long before you get to the stall speed you will be on your back and wondering what happened. The point that Bob K keeps making is that with ice build up on the airframe the AOA (angle of attack) that the wing will stall depends on the nature of the particular ice build-up. If you think knowing the airspeed will help you in an icing situation you are kidding yourself unless you have tested the airspeed under the exact conditions you are curently flying. Now that we know that, what's your plan B for no airspeed indication or more likely, irronious airspeed indication. There are many more causes of invalid airspeed indication than ice and they all require a plan B to get safely on the ground. Regards, Bob Lee N52BL KR2 Suwanee, GA USA 92% done only 67% to go! ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery box being demanded
From: "RayStL" <raystl(at)nbnet.nb.ca>
Date: Feb 10, 2011
Glad to help. I think it is almost over. Some things are too silly to live. This was one of them. --ray -------- Ray St-Laurent 701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330527#330527 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ralph Finch" <ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pitot heat
Date: Feb 10, 2011
On my RV-9A I'm installing both a heated pitot and an AOA indicator. Belt and suspenders if you will. It's little extra trouble or expense in the build process. Really, I don't see why the arguing about this. Why not have a heated pitot tube if it can be done easily? On a manufactured/certificated aircraft, sure, it's a hassle to install one after the fact. On our experimentals-especially during build-rather easily done. I think this thread has reached the angels-dancing-on-pinheads stage. Ralph Finch ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "earl_schroeder(at)juno.com" <earl_schroeder(at)juno.com>
Date: Feb 11, 2011
Subject: Re: Pitot heat
---------- Original Message ---------- From: "Ralph Finch" <ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.com> [snip] Really, I don’t see why the arguing about this. [snip] Perhaps it is too cold to fly and even too cold to build.... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2011
From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl>
Subject: Battery disconnect switch
Please have a look at: http://www.tycoelectronics.com/prodimages/pdf/130-C.pdf Latching switch. Takes no continuous current. Takes 50ms pulse of 2.5A instead. Carries 190A. max. 1800A. Switches 100A. Weighs a little over half a S701-1. Costs a little over double a S701-1. Apart from the trouble of having to make a nice reliable pulse - is this an attractive option? Jan de Jong ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery disconnect switch
At 05:50 AM 2/11/2011, you wrote: > >Please have a look at: >http://www.tycoelectronics.com/prodimages/pdf/130-C.pdf Interesting find! This is but one example of many that we can expect to come over the horizon. This one is interesting in that it's not a solid-state switch. Doing a tear-down to see how it's assembled would be a great education. Lamar has had a solid-state contactor out for some time. I've heard nothing about it's utility or performance from users in the field. An engineer at Lamar was going to send me a sample but I think it slipped his mind. I think I'll hit him up again. I thought I might add a battery master switch to my pickup truck and use the feature to put some real-time service on products like these. Jan, have you attempted to locate a stocking distributor for this device? Any notion on what it costs? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Valovich, Paul" <pvalovich(at)dcscorp.com>
Date: Feb 11, 2011
Subject: Icing Procedures
We've beat the heated pitot theory to death - how about a topic twist to d iscuss the step by step procedures one will employ before and after encount ering actual icing? My RV-8A has a Gertz heated pitot tube and an AFS 3500 Angle of Attack (I' m a former Navy carrier pilot so I've be weaned on AOA stuff). Here's my icing checklist - appreciate comments from those who think they h ave a better idea. 1. If pilot decides potential icing conditions exist, or prior to entering clouds, or at very first sign of ice PIOT HEAT ON 2. AOA CHECK/VERIFY OPERATION 3. Indicated Airspeed/AOA MONITOR/CORRELATE 4. At First Indication of Ice Accumulation CHANGE AL TITUDE AND/OR COURSE 5. Monitor AOA and IAS 6. If Icing Persists LAND AS SOON AS PRACTICABLE 7. Enroute to Landing Site CON TROLABILITY CHECK - (with sufficient altitude for stall/spin recovery) (slow at 10mph intervals to 100 mph, then 5 mph intervals to approach to st all) 8. Landing Pattern 100 MPH OR AT LEAST +10 ABOVE APPROACH TO STALL 9. Established on Final SLOW TO ENSURE SAFE LANDING ATTITUDE (my tailwheel's on the front) NOTES: 1. Ice accumulation is dynamic, not static. Always be prepared for ha ndling surprises. 2. Closely monitor handling qualities in the landing pattern; do not get slow 3. If stall buffet occurs in pattern, abort and increase pattern spee d on next approach 4. DO NOT STALL IN THE LANDING PATTERN 5. Get the plane safely on deck - do not worry about landing style po ints ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery disconnect switch
> Jan, have you attempted to locate a stocking > distributor for this device? Any notion on > what it costs? Here it is . . . http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=8860610 If I didn't already have a couple dozen things on the to-do list, I'd run right out an buy one. That will have to wait. Given that it's a Tyco product and designed for integration into automotive (worse than airplanes) service, this looks like a really interesting, low-risk product. CAUTION: This is a set-reset, two-coil latched device. Unlike legacy contactors, it takes POWER to turn it on. It also takes POWER to turn it off. This is not necessarily a show-stopper but you need to figure out how it changes your master switch wiring/switch selection -and- how it might affect some abnormal operating situation. This is NOT a drop-in, plug-n-play substitution for the legacy contactor. The price is right but do the substitution with some thought as to the effects of new features added to your bag of tricks. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Icing Procedures
>NOTES: >1. Ice accumulation is dynamic, not >static. Always be prepared for handling surprises. >2. Closely monitor handling qualities in >the landing pattern; do not get slow >3. If stall buffet occurs in pattern, >abort and increase pattern speed on next approach >4. DO NOT STALL IN THE LANDING PATTERN >5. Get the plane safely on deck do not >worry about landing style points Hear, hear . . . All points offer due deference and diligence to the probability that a once comfortable and friendly machine may be suffering the effects of aerodynamic LSD. I would add a reminder that pre-stall buffet may be minimal to non-existent. The way the ice built on my personal spirit-walk with the ice demons had the effect of adding full length stall strip to the wing. It broke so quickly that if there was any pre-stall buffet, it was not noticeable. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Icing Procedures
Date: Feb 11, 2011
From: <longg(at)pjm.com>
In VFR weather a good pilot familiar with their craft should be able to fly without an airspeed indicator. If you can't, you need more practice to get the feel of your bird. Of course Navy pilots already know this. Don't be so dependent on numbers. Glenn E. Long -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valovich, Paul Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 10:20 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Icing Procedures We've beat the heated pitot theory to death - how about a topic twist to discuss the step by step procedures one will employ before and after encountering actual icing? My RV-8A has a Gertz heated pitot tube and an AFS 3500 Angle of Attack (I'm a former Navy carrier pilot so I've be weaned on AOA stuff). Here's my icing checklist - appreciate comments from those who think they have a better idea. 1. If pilot decides potential icing conditions exist, or prior to entering clouds, or at very first sign of ice PIOT HEAT ON 2. AOA CHECK/VERIFY OPERATION 3. Indicated Airspeed/AOA MONITOR/CORRELATE 4. At First Indication of Ice Accumulation CHANGE ALTITUDE AND/OR COURSE 5. Monitor AOA and IAS 6. If Icing Persists LAND AS SOON AS PRACTICABLE 7. Enroute to Landing Site CONTROLABILITY CHECK - (with sufficient altitude for stall/spin recovery) (slow at 10mph intervals to 100 mph, then 5 mph intervals to approach to stall) 8. Landing Pattern 100 MPH OR AT LEAST +10 ABOVE APPROACH TO STALL 9. Established on Final SLOW TO ENSURE SAFE LANDING ATTITUDE (my tailwheel's on the front) NOTES: 1. Ice accumulation is dynamic, not static. Always be prepared for handling surprises. 2. Closely monitor handling qualities in the landing pattern; do not get slow 3. If stall buffet occurs in pattern, abort and increase pattern speed on next approach 4. DO NOT STALL IN THE LANDING PATTERN 5. Get the plane safely on deck - do not worry about landing style points ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: cable ends at BNC and antenna
Date: Feb 11, 2011
Hi Bob=2C I am at a point where I'm closing things up pretty soon=2C and my 'at-the-moment' easy access to my antenna cable is about to end. For clarification=2C plus could you verify something for me? Since I have a 100' spool of the Belden 9222 triax=2C I used it to constr uct my comm & transponder antennas cables. Following the Glasair instructions =2C I installed the BNC connectors at the radio end=2C and used the same method to install the BNC connector at the antenna end. But after thinking about it=2C I think I did the antenna end wrong. Was the point of using triax to let it act like a balun? If it was=2C then wouldn't I leave the antenna end of the triax outer shield 'open'=2C and construct as per the ba zooka balun instructions? (the comm antenna cable is about 40" long=2C the xponder cable is about 60" ) Since I have the inner shield AND the outer shields connected at both end s (via BNC connectors) can I just leave them this way=2C or should I cut off the antenna end=2C and re-do it to where the outer shield does not contact the inner shield=2C (except as pointed out in the "bazooka balun" instructions) ? Thanks for your help=2C Mike Welch ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: AOA indicator
Date: Feb 11, 2011
What effect does icing have on the accuracy of an AOA indicator? Will it give you an accurate indication of an impending stall if you have accumulated ice on the wing leading edge? Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CardinalNSB(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 11, 2011
Subject: Used transponder test?
Is there a way to test the cavity tube easily and cheaply using cheap tools, to at least weed out bad cavity tubes before paying an avionics shop for testing? Thank you. Skip ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Battery disconnect switch
Date: Feb 11, 2011
... a quick glance at the fact sheet indicates that a non-latching version is also available...hmmmm... so why do we (I) want one? 1. includes coil spike-suppression diodes 2. looks cool ;) 3. Price is not bad It's only a little more expensive than the "standard" can-shaped solenoids http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php. Mounting will be different. If we use the latching capability, does is make circuitry simpler, more reliable, better, stronger, faster, (will it help prevent icing? - sorry, couldn't resist ;) I'm w/ Bob, definitely needs more noodling.. -Jeff -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 06:51 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery disconnect switch > Jan, have you attempted to locate a stocking > distributor for this device? Any notion on > what it costs? Here it is . . . http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=8860610 If I didn't already have a couple dozen things on the to-do list, I'd run right out an buy one. That will have to wait. Given that it's a Tyco product and designed for integration into automotive (worse than airplanes) service, this looks like a really interesting, low-risk product. CAUTION: This is a set-reset, two-coil latched device. Unlike legacy contactors, it takes POWER to turn it on. It also takes POWER to turn it off. This is not necessarily a show-stopper but you need to figure out how it changes your master switch wiring/switch selection -and- how it might affect some abnormal operating situation. This is NOT a drop-in, plug-n-play substitution for the legacy contactor. The price is right but do the substitution with some thought as to the effects of new features added to your bag of tricks. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AOA indicator
At 11:24 AM 2/11/2011, you wrote: > > >What effect does icing have on the accuracy of an AOA indicator? Will it >give you an accurate indication of an impending stall if you have >accumulated ice on the wing leading edge? No . . . . Most AOA displays don't give you an 'angle' display. They generally display bands of relative goodness/badness shaded in legacy red, yellow and green. The display will probably be fitted with a 'sweet spot' . . . which represents an AOA value optimized by much flight testing. The problem is that the any sweet spot assumes that the wing is clean and stall breaks at xx.x degrees. Just lowering flaps can give you a new sweet spot at yy.y degrees. The more sophisticated AOA display systems will have inputs for flap position so that the sweet spot is automatically moved to a new value confirmed by careful flight testing. Once you add ice shapes on top of those super whippy, laminar flow, high efficiency, low drag, etc etc air foils, the stall break moves to zz.z degrees. Unless iced over, the AOA sensor will continue to give you an accurate AOA display. The problem is that any knowledge the AOA possesses with respect to airplane performance is now suspect. It's not a loss of display integrity that bites. It's a departure from performance conditions under which IAS or AOA sweet spots were deduced. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2011
Subject: Re: AOA indicator
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
Generally, no, it will not give accurate information. A wing that used to stall at 13 degrees might stall at 10 or 8 with ice (for instance, these aren't necessarily accurate numbers). In fact, this has been a source of at least a few crashes of transport category airplanes that stalled on takeoff without activation of the stall protection systems. Ice accumulation combined with an aggressive rotation rate and the ground effect were sufficient to push the stall AOA below the thresholds for the stick shaker and pusher, so in some cases the crews didn't even get any indication that the airplane was stalled, other than the sudden 90 degree bank angle. An AOA indicator might or might not indicate degrees AOA correctly, but even if it does, it's information doesn't mean anything, since you don't know what the stall AOA is of your "new" experimental airfoil shape. On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 11:24 AM, ROGER & JEAN CURTIS < mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> wrote: > mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> > > What effect does icing have on the accuracy of an AOA indicator? Will it > give you an accurate indication of an impending stall if you have > accumulated ice on the wing leading edge? > > Roger > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Used transponder test?
At 11:28 AM 2/11/2011, you wrote: >Is there a way to test the cavity tube easily and cheaply using >cheap tools, to at least weed out bad cavity tubes before paying an >avionics shop for testing? Thank you. Skip > > Easy and cheap need quantification. There ARE ways to exercise a transponder into 'sqittering' a stream of replies by hitting it with certain noise sources. A line operated drill motor has been shown to be an effective test tool for this purpose. Then you need a diode detector teed into the feedline attached to a 'scope for the purpose of watching the width and magnitude of reply pulses. Finally, there is a lesser concern for being tuned to the right frequency. Of course, you can also just go fly the thing. Make a temporary installation and see if center can read your mode c replies. You COULD also build a jeep box that would simulate encoder inputs to check altitude reporting too. What you might want to do is negotiate a go/no-go bench test as opposed to a full stroke through the gyrations that would win a yellow-tag for the transponder. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2011
From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl>
Subject: Re: Battery disconnect switch
In Europe RS sells the switch for 38.27 and 46,29 -, a lot more than Allied. And VAT of 20% or so not yet included either! The plug needed is Tyco 184046-1 with A key (there are A .. D keys) and is hard to find. I found only one retail source: http://www.newunitedracetech.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_15_24&products_id=6114 They charge $2.70. To be able to use it as a normal on-off switch I am thinking of an adapter with 3 input pins - ground, power and switch - and the required 4-pin Tyco plug as the output. Switch to power (from open or ground) would generate an ON pulse, switch to ground (from open or power) would generate an OFF pulse, switch to open (from ground or power) would not do anything. If ever no switching action results when expected: repeat manually - introducing memory and automatic repeat goes too far I think. Jan de Jong ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Battery disconnect switch
At 11:46 AM 2/11/2011, you wrote: > > >... a quick glance at the fact sheet indicates that a non-latching version >is also available...hmmmm... so why do we (I) want one? > >1. includes coil spike-suppression diodes >2. looks cool ;) >3. Price is not bad Emacs! This is a direct descendant of the RPM/Stancor/White-Rogers series of legacy contactors. The 70-111226 is a 3-wire 12v contactor with one coil internally attached to the 'BAT' terminal. It's the same class of contactor we've been using in small airplanes for many, many moons. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery disconnect switch
>To be able to use it as a normal on-off switch I am thinking of an >adapter with 3 input pins - ground, power and switch - and the >required 4-pin Tyco plug as the output. >Switch to power (from open or ground) would generate an ON pulse, >switch to ground (from open or power) would generate an OFF pulse, >switch to open (from ground or power) would not do anything. >If ever no switching action results when expected: repeat manually - >introducing memory and automatic repeat goes too far I think. Another thought. The coil resistance is stated as 4.7 ohms. This translates to a coil draw on the order of 2.5 amps while energized. The specs also state 100 mS max for transfer pulse. This means that you probably have to device control circuitry that LIMITS control inputs to input pulses having a fixed and limited duration. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2011
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Battery disconnect switch
4. no continuous coil current for small electric systems 5. wider temperature limits 6. higher current silver contacts 7. they seem to be implying 42 volt disconnect capability which might make it better for OVP 8. might be acceptable to run electric dependent engine supply through it whereas I will not do that with the "standard" can-shaped contactor. 9. not subject to damage if the connector bolts turn during installation. Cons 1. more difficult connections involving extra bolts and a specific connector that will need to be sourced. 2. more difficult to mount and insulate connections from a metal airframe. 3. ?? On 2/11/2011 11:46 AM, Jeff Luckey wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jeff Luckey" > > > ... a quick glance at the fact sheet indicates that a non-latching version > is also available...hmmmm... so why do we (I) want one? > > 1. includes coil spike-suppression diodes > 2. looks cool ;) > 3. Price is not bad > > It's only a little more expensive than the "standard" can-shaped solenoids > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php. > > Mounting will be different. > > If we use the latching capability, does is make circuitry simpler, more > reliable, better, stronger, faster, (will it help prevent icing? - sorry, > couldn't resist ;) > > I'm w/ Bob, definitely needs more noodling.. > > > -Jeff > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. > Nuckolls, III > Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 06:51 > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery disconnect switch > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > >> Jan, have you attempted to locate a stocking >> distributor for this device? Any notion on >> what it costs? > > Here it is . . . > > http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=8860610 > > If I didn't already have a couple dozen > things on the to-do list, I'd run right out > an buy one. That will have to wait. > > Given that it's a Tyco product and designed > for integration into automotive (worse than > airplanes) service, this looks like a really > interesting, low-risk product. > > CAUTION: This is a set-reset, two-coil > latched device. Unlike legacy contactors, > it takes POWER to turn it on. It also takes > POWER to turn it off. > > This is not necessarily a show-stopper but > you need to figure out how it changes your > master switch wiring/switch selection -and- > how it might affect some abnormal operating > situation. > > This is NOT a drop-in, plug-n-play substitution > for the legacy contactor. The price is right > but do the substitution with some thought as > to the effects of new features added to your bag > of tricks. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2011
From: Glen Matejcek <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: stereo helmet
It seems gentex does make stereo installations for their helmets. It has also been suggested that one could take the guts of most any ANR headset and install it in a helmet, and that it's been done before as a more cost effective means to the end. Glen Matejcek ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2011
From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl>
Subject: Re: Aeroelectric-list: Battery disconnect switch
>>To be able to use it as a normal on-off switch I am thinking of an >>adapter with 3 input pins - ground, power and switch - and the >>required 4-pin Tyco plug as the output. >>Switch to power (from open or ground) would generate an ON pulse, >>switch to ground (from open or power) would generate an OFF pulse, >>switch to open (from ground or power) would not do anything. >>If ever no switching action results when expected: repeat manually - >>introducing memory and automatic repeat goes too far I think. > > Another thought. The coil resistance is stated as 4.7 ohms. > This translates to a coil draw on the order of 2.5 amps > while energized. The specs also state 100 mS max for transfer > pulse. This means that you probably have to device control > circuitry that LIMITS control inputs to input pulses having > a fixed and limited duration. Yes - adapter must have power and ground. Without having put pen to paper I was thinking of a few parts like: - R and C for 50ms - comparator with builtin reference and hysteresis good for automotive Vs - PNP with emitter resistor for 5A current limit or so - the odd resistor and diode. Jan de Jong ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RGent1224(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 11, 2011
Subject: Re: stereo helmet
The DIY guys might want to check out this site _http://www.headsetsinc.com/_ (http://www.headsetsinc.com/) Dick In a message dated 2/11/2011 2:15:15 P.M. Central Standard Time, aerobubba(at)earthlink.net writes: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Glen Matejcek It seems gentex does make stereo installations for their helmets. It has also been suggested that one could take the guts of most any ANR headset and install it in a helmet, and that it's been done before as a more cost effective means to the end. Glen Matejcek ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MLWynn(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 11, 2011
Subject: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers
Hi all, I have been cruising the archives to clarify a question about crimping sub-D pins. If I understand this correctly, there are sub-D pins that are machined and those that are stamped. The machined ones are significantly higher in quality and are recommended. I understand there are standard and high density pins. What is the difference? Do they need a different crimper? Are the pins that B&C sells considered high density or standard? There are also pins for designed for soldering, but they are probably best avoided. Are there any circumstances in which soldered pins are preferable? B&C sells a machined pin crimper, RCT-3 _http://www.bandc.biz/d-submachinedpincrimptool.aspx_ (http://www.bandc.biz/d-submachinedpincrimptool.aspx) that is designed for machine pin crimps. Is this okay for both standard and high density pins? On the Vertical Power web site (am an installing a VP-X system) they say to only use the high priced crimper. They will rent you one for $10 a month or sell in to $300. Steinair has a high priced Daniels Crimper _http://steinair.com/images/store/afm8.jpg_ (http://steinair.com/images/store/afm8.jpg) Which they describe as good for regular and high density pins. So, my basic questions are: 1. what is the difference between standard machined sub-D pins and high density pins? 2. Am I okay with the RCT-3 crimper or should I rent or buy an expensive one? Thanks, Michael Wynn RV 8 Wiring San Ramon, CA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Battery disconnect switch
Date: Feb 11, 2011
Bob do you normally run your starter through this contactor? Noel From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: February 11, 2011 2:42 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery disconnect switch At 11:46 AM 2/11/2011, you wrote: ... a quick glance at the fact sheet indicates that a non-latching version is also available...hmmmm... so why do we (I) want one? 1. includes coil spike-suppression diodes 2. looks cool ;) 3. Price is not bad Emacs! This is a direct descendant of the RPM/Stancor/White-Rogers series of legacy contactors. The 70-111226 is a 3-wire 12v contactor with one coil internally attached to the 'BAT' terminal. It's the same class of contactor we've been using in small airplanes for many, many moons. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Battery disconnect switch
At 04:05 PM 2/11/2011, you wrote: >Bob do you normally run your starter through this contactor? Sure. It's been done in a couple hundred thousand airplanes for 70 years. This contactor doesn't have to SWITCH starter current, only CARRY it. Not a big deal Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Hanaway" <tomhanaway(at)comcast.net>
Subject: 3a fuse blows but 5a doesnt.
Date: Feb 11, 2011
I have led warning lights for door's being latched (20awg). I'm also running a stall warning wire (18awg) to the same fuse. If I use a 3 amp fuse, it blows immediately when power turns on and both led lights go out. If I put in a 5 amp, the system works as designed and lights stay on indicating doors not latched. I realize I'll want to go in and trace all the wires to make sure I don't have an unintentional ground but I don't understand why one fuse pops immediately and one slightly larger doesn't. As stated above, running a 20 and 18 awg at this fuse. Thanks in advance, Tom Hanaway RV-10 Boynton Beach, FL ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2011
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Aeroelectric-list: Battery disconnect switch
Suspect that it would work just fine for many years with a momentary spring loaded on-off-on toggle switch and no conditioning circuitry. Ken On 2/11/2011 3:22 PM, Jan de Jong wrote: > > >>> To be able to use it as a normal on-off switch I am thinking of an >>> adapter with 3 input pins - ground, power and switch - and the >>> required 4-pin Tyco plug as the output. >>> Switch to power (from open or ground) would generate an ON pulse, >>> switch to ground (from open or power) would generate an OFF pulse, >>> switch to open (from ground or power) would not do anything. >>> If ever no switching action results when expected: repeat manually - >>> introducing memory and automatic repeat goes too far I think. >> >> Another thought. The coil resistance is stated as 4.7 ohms. >> This translates to a coil draw on the order of 2.5 amps >> while energized. The specs also state 100 mS max for transfer >> pulse. This means that you probably have to device control >> circuitry that LIMITS control inputs to input pulses having >> a fixed and limited duration. > > Yes - adapter must have power and ground. > Without having put pen to paper I was thinking of a few parts like: > - R and C for 50ms > - comparator with builtin reference and hysteresis good for automotive Vs > - PNP with emitter resistor for 5A current limit or so > - the odd resistor and diode. > > Jan de Jong > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Eedy" <peter(at)eedy.id.au>
Subject: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers
Date: Feb 12, 2011
Hi FYI I purchased the Daniels direct with std crimper inserts (k13-1 - not for high density pins) for: AFM8-K13-1 CRIMP TOOL WITH K13-1 POSITIONER 1 $271.26 $271.26 + $20 USD delivered to Australia Great piece of kit worth every penny! www.dmctools.com Peter Eedy 70 - 72 Parry Street COOKS HILL NSW 2300 Australia. Waiex #109 under construction. From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of MLWynn(at)aol.com Sent: Saturday, 12 February 2011 7:42 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers Hi all, I have been cruising the archives to clarify a question about crimping sub-D pins. If I understand this correctly, there are sub-D pins that are machined and those that are stamped. The machined ones are significantly higher in quality and are recommended. I understand there are standard and high density pins. What is the difference? Do they need a different crimper? Are the pins that B&C sells considered high density or standard? There are also pins for designed for soldering, but they are probably best avoided. Are there any circumstances in which soldered pins are preferable? B&C sells a machined pin crimper, RCT-3 http://www.bandc.biz/d-submachinedpincrimptool.aspx that is designed for machine pin crimps. Is this okay for both standard and high density pins? On the Vertical Power web site (am an installing a VP-X system) they say to only use the high priced crimper. They will rent you one for $10 a month or sell in to $300. Steinair has a high priced Daniels Crimper http://steinair.com/images/store/afm8.jpg Which they describe as good for regular and high density pins. So, my basic questions are: 1. what is the difference between standard machined sub-D pins and high density pins? 2. Am I okay with the RCT-3 crimper or should I rent or buy an expensive one? Thanks, Michael Wynn RV 8 Wiring San Ramon, CA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery disconnect switch
> >8. might be acceptable to run electric dependent engine supply >through it whereas I will not do that with the "standard" can-shaped contactor. I might repeat a past recommendation that stuff needed to keep an engine lit should probably run directly from a battery bus. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 3a fuse blows but 5a doesnt.
At 05:16 PM 2/11/2011, you wrote: >I have led warning lights for door's being latched (20awg). I'm >also running a stall warning wire (18awg) to the same fuse. > >If I use a 3 amp fuse, it blows immediately when power turns on >and both led lights go out. >If I put in a 5 amp, the system works as designed and lights stay on >indicating doors not latched. > >I realize I'll want to go in and trace all the wires to make sure I >don't have an unintentional ground but I don't understand why one >fuse pops immediately and one slightly larger doesn't. how much current flows in the protected circuit. If you had a unintentional ground, no fuse would stay intact. >But if you had, say 4A of current flowing in this circuit, then a 3A would blow quickly and a 5A would hang around. Can you scan and publish a schematic of the system you're trouble-shooting? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Aeroelectric-list: Battery disconnect switch
At 05:24 PM 2/11/2011, you wrote: > >Suspect that it would work just fine for many years with a momentary >spring loaded on-off-on toggle switch and no conditioning circuitry. I suspect you're right. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers
At 03:42 PM 2/11/2011, you wrote: >Hi all, > >I have been cruising the archives to clarify a question about >crimping sub-D pins. If I understand this correctly, there are >sub-D pins that are machined and those that are stamped. The >machined ones are significantly higher in quality and are >recommended. I understand there are standard and high density >pins. What is the difference? Standard D-sub pins will accept 20AWG wires, HD-sub pins are limited to 22AWG wire. >Do they need a different crimper? Are the pins that B&C sells >considered high density or standard? They sell standard density pins, I think Steinair can supply both. > > There are also pins for designed for soldering, but they are > probably best avoided. Are there any circumstances in which > soldered pins are preferable? No > >B&C sells a machined pin crimper, >RCT-3 ><http://www.bandc.biz/d-submachinedpincrimptool.aspx>http://www.bandc..biz/d-submachinedpincrimptool.aspx >that is designed for machine pin crimps. Is this okay for both >standard and high density pins? It's designed for Standard D pins. I don't have any HD-pins on hand to check again but I believe the RCT-3 puts an adequate mash on the HD pins. If somebody has a half dozen HD pins they can donate to the cause, I'll test the RCT-3 again and cross-section the joints for microscopic inspection. On the Vertical Power web site (am an installing a VP-X system) they say to only use the high priced crimper. They will rent you one for $10 a month or sell in to $300. Steinair has a high priced Daniels Crimper ><http://steinair.com/images/store/afm8.jpg>http://steinair.com/images/store/afm8.jpg > >Which they describe as good for regular and high density pins. Correct . . . with a change out of the positioner. See: http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Tools/Daniels/ConnectorToolingGuide.pdf > >So, my basic questions are: >1. what is the difference between standard machined sub-D pins and >high density pins? size >2. Am I okay with the RCT-3 crimper or should I rent or buy an expensive one? The B&C RCT-3 (Eclipse Tool Co. 4-quad) tool has been around for at least 10 years. I own and have used several for that period of time . . . I also have a set of Daniels tools and positioners. The less expensive tools are in my knock-around toolboxes, the 'good' stuff is on the bench. I use them interchangeably with good results. If you can get all your d-sub work done in a few months, Stein's rental fee is a good deal . . . but you'd probably want to own an el-cheepo for future maintenance and/or expansion. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Hanaway" <tomhanaway(at)comcast.net>
Subject: 3a fuse blows but 5a doesnt.
Date: Feb 11, 2011
Bob, It was an unintentional ground. I hadn't hooked up the final stall warning buzzer and the wires were lying on the bottom of the fuselage. I don't have a schematic of this portion of the system, just coded wires. Tom -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 6:08 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 3a fuse blows but 5a doesnt. At 05:16 PM 2/11/2011, you wrote: >I have led warning lights for door's being latched (20awg). I'm >also running a stall warning wire (18awg) to the same fuse. > >If I use a 3 amp fuse, it blows immediately when power turns on >and both led lights go out. >If I put in a 5 amp, the system works as designed and lights stay on >indicating doors not latched. > >I realize I'll want to go in and trace all the wires to make sure I >don't have an unintentional ground but I don't understand why one >fuse pops immediately and one slightly larger doesn't. how much current flows in the protected circuit. If you had a unintentional ground, no fuse would stay intact. >But if you had, say 4A of current flowing in this circuit, then a 3A would blow quickly and a 5A would hang around. Can you scan and publish a schematic of the system you're trouble-shooting? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2011
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers
FWIW, I just posted my experience with a low cost crimper on my log: http://www.mykitlog.com/users/category.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&category=6577 Though I can't justify buying a $300 crimper for the project now, you can pay a price for going cheaper unless you are careful. The D-Sub wire/pin connection is really easy, fast, clean and seems reliable but it can be screwed up by a defective tool. I'm happy with my repaired cheap crimper at this point. Bob, thanks again for helping me get to the bottom of this one last year. Bill Watson > B&C sells a machined pin crimper, RCT-3 > http://www.bandc.biz/d-submachinedpincrimptool.aspx > that is designed for machine pin crimps. Is this okay for both > standard and high density pins? > On the Vertical Power web site (am an installing a VP-X system) they > say to only use the high priced crimper. They will rent you one for > $10 a month or sell in to $300. Steinair has a high priced Daniels > Crimper > http://steinair.com/images/store/afm8.jpg > > 2. Am I okay with the RCT-3 crimper or should I rent or buy an > expensive one? > Thanks, > Michael Wynn > RV 8 Wiring > San Ramon, CA > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2011
Subject: Re: 3a fuse blows but 5a doesnt.
From: b d <gpabruce(at)gmail.com>
Rather than use fuses to guess at your amperage, use an ammeter and put in series. It's not a short, so no need to trace wiring. Its simply how much current is being used. The fuse is sized to protect the wire. The wire is sized to supply the device. I don't know off hand the protection required for a 20awg and an 18 awg. I also don't know the nominal current required for your devices. You must begin there. Is the device using more current than it is designed to use? In the case of multiple devices, the device currents must be added to know the total current. Then is the wire capable of handling all devices or must they be wired and fused separately. Begin a t the device . . . read what the specs are, measure the current with an ammeter not a fuse. On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 2:16 PM, Tom Hanaway wrote : > I have led warning lights for door=92s being latched (20awg). I=92m als o > running a stall warning wire (18awg) to the same fuse. > > > If I use a 3 amp fuse, it blows immediately when power turns on and both > led lights go out. > > If I put in a 5 amp, the system works as designed and lights stay on > indicating doors not latched. > > > I realize I=92ll want to go in and trace all the wires to make sure I don =92t > have an unintentional ground but I don=92t understand why one fuse pops > immediately and one slightly larger doesn=92t. > > > As stated above, running a 20 and 18 awg at this fuse. > > > Thanks in advance, > > Tom Hanaway > > RV-10 > > Boynton Beach, FL > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers
At 08:40 PM 2/11/2011, you wrote: >FWIW, I just posted my experience with a low cost crimper on my log: ><http://www.mykitlog.com/users/category.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&category=6577>http://www.mykitlog.com/users/category.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&category=6577 > >Though I can't justify buying a $300 crimper for the project now, >you can pay a price for going cheaper unless you are careful. The >D-Sub wire/pin connection is really easy, fast, clean and seems >reliable but it can be screwed up by a defective tool. I'm happy >with my repaired cheap crimper at this point. > >Bob, thanks again for helping me get to the bottom of this one last year. Sure. I'd forgotten about that conversation. B&C had been doing the same checks and modifications to the RTC-3 tools as described in this folder of my website: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/4-Quad/ I modified all the crimpers I was selling and marked the tools as AEC Modified. But Bill reminded me that the cognizant purchaser of this tool will check for the necessary modification. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Low Ohms Adapter Status
I've just finished the proof of concept article for an AEC9008-1 Low Ohms Adapter. The pictures are here: http://tinyurl.com/4f5j3cu The photos include two live tests. In one photo, the companion VOM (not supplied) is shown on the 2V setting. This translates to a 19.99 ohms full scale display on the VOM. I've fitted a 3.9 ohm resistor into the clips which produces a reading of "396" or 3.96 ohms. The other photo shows the clips connected together and the VOM on the 200 mV scale for a resistance reading of 1.999 ohms full scale. We can see that the almost- but-not-quite 4-wire measurement has a residual resistance reading on the order of 3 millohms. When using the instrument on the 20 ohm scale, the 3 milliohm error is insignificant. on the 2 ohm scale, one might improve on the reading my subtracting 3 milliohms from the displayed reading. I've made some tooling for getting the holes drilled quickly. I've worked out some other pesky packaging issues. The production batch should go pretty smoothly now. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2011
Subject: Re: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
If I understand correctly, this is great news. I have this crimper: http://steinair.com/images/store/SAT004.jpg <http://steinair.com/images/store/SAT004.jpg>but was just scratching my head figuring out how I was going to handle what appear to be HD pins on my GNS430 backplate. Do I understand correctly that with careful depth positioning, I should be able to use the above tool to crimp a few high density pins too? Stein explicitly says that the above tool is not for HD pins, which I accepted as truth without any investigation. On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 8:26 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 08:40 PM 2/11/2011, you wrote: > > FWIW, I just posted my experience with a low cost crimper on my log: > http://www.mykitlog.com/users/category.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&category=6577 > > Though I can't justify buying a $300 crimper for the project now, you can > pay a price for going cheaper unless you are careful. The D-Sub wire/pin > connection is really easy, fast, clean and seems reliable but it can be > screwed up by a defective tool. I'm happy with my repaired cheap crimper at > this point. > > Bob, thanks again for helping me get to the bottom of this one last year. > > > Sure. I'd forgotten about that conversation. > B&C had been doing the same checks and modifications > to the RTC-3 tools as described in this folder > of my website: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/4-Quad/ > > I modified all the crimpers I was selling and marked > the tools as AEC Modified. But Bill reminded me that > the cognizant purchaser of this tool will check for > the necessary modification. > > Bob . . . > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Battery disconnect switch
Date: Feb 11, 2011
Thinking out loud... Some failure analysis & comparison: With this new product, since it is not continually energized, it would be less susceptible to in-flight failure due to coil failure, yes? With a conventional solenoid, if the coil breaks or burns-up, the contactor will open. Not the case w/ this device. In that same vein, it would be less prone to a failure of the wiring to the switch. With the conventional, continuous-duty solenoid, any breakage or loose connection in the wire to the master switch would cause the contactor to open. With this new latching device, once it's on, a failure the wiring to the switch would not cause it to open. For these reasons, the new device might just be a little more "reliable" than a conventional solenoid. (This, of course, assumes that it is a well-engineered, high-quality device.) What do you think? -Jeff -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 14:25 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Aeroelectric-list: Battery disconnect switch Suspect that it would work just fine for many years with a momentary spring loaded on-off-on toggle switch and no conditioning circuitry. Ken On 2/11/2011 3:22 PM, Jan de Jong wrote: > > >>> To be able to use it as a normal on-off switch I am thinking of an >>> adapter with 3 input pins - ground, power and switch - and the >>> required 4-pin Tyco plug as the output. >>> Switch to power (from open or ground) would generate an ON pulse, >>> switch to ground (from open or power) would generate an OFF pulse, >>> switch to open (from ground or power) would not do anything. >>> If ever no switching action results when expected: repeat manually - >>> introducing memory and automatic repeat goes too far I think. >> >> Another thought. The coil resistance is stated as 4.7 ohms. >> This translates to a coil draw on the order of 2.5 amps >> while energized. The specs also state 100 mS max for transfer >> pulse. This means that you probably have to device control >> circuitry that LIMITS control inputs to input pulses having >> a fixed and limited duration. > > Yes - adapter must have power and ground. > Without having put pen to paper I was thinking of a few parts like: > - R and C for 50ms > - comparator with builtin reference and hysteresis good for automotive Vs > - PNP with emitter resistor for 5A current limit or so > - the odd resistor and diode. > > Jan de Jong > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2011
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers
On 2/11/2011 10:19 PM, Jared Yates wrote: > If I understand correctly, this is great news. I have this crimper: > > http://steinair.com/images/store/SAT004.jpg > > but was just scratching my head figuring out how I was going to handle > what appear to be HD pins on my GNS430 backplate. Do I understand > correctly that with careful depth positioning, I should be able to use > the above tool to crimp a few high density pins too? Stein explicitly > says that the above tool is not for HD pins, which I accepted as truth > without any investigation. I can't speak to the HD pins and at this point, I would take Stein's opinion as fact unless and until Bob gets a chance to test or someone else can chime in. I didn't have to do any HD pins. To be clear, the depth positioning problem is a potential problem with standard pins. I'm guessing that the HD pin is thinner (and the Daniel's tool handles that by changing crimp heads or something). I went back to my records and the crimper I have is from Stein. From Bob's comments, it seems that the defect is not universal but you should check. With the defect, you can make a whole bunch of substandard crimps without realizing it... the last thing you want is some intermittent connection among 20-some wires among a dozen different D-sub plugs. Bill Watson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2011
From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl>
Subject: Re: Aeroelectric-list: Battery disconnect switch
>Suspect that it would work just fine for many years with a momentary >spring loaded on-off-on toggle switch and no conditioning circuitry. I think so too. It is just for present relay uses that need on-off action that a pulse would have to made. An example would be the aux battery auto-connect function. But that can be a smaller regular relay if the aux battery does not help cranking. Manual on could be replaced by 2 actions (2 switches): enable then momentary-on. Manual off by: momentary-off then disable. >What do you think? > >-Jeff I think so too. It should not get hot. And it holds position at 40g it says. Jan de Jong ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers
Date: Feb 12, 2011
I received the machine pin crimper from Steinair and it took a few flawed crimps to realize that the depth stop was not correct for the size machine pins I was using. The pin dropped too far into the crimping hole. I solved this by cutting a piece of heavy gauge wire to the needed length and dropping it into the hole. This prevented the pin from going too far into the hole for good crimping. That solved the problem. I since discovered that the maker of that crimper makes two sizes one for 14-22 gauge wire and the larger pins and one for 22-28 gauge wire and smaller pins. I think the only difference is the adjustable depth stop. Ed -------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Watson" <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2011 2:15 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers > > > On 2/11/2011 10:19 PM, Jared Yates wrote: >> If I understand correctly, this is great news. I have this crimper: >> >> http://steinair.com/images/store/SAT004.jpg >> >> but was just scratching my head figuring out how I was going to handle >> what appear to be HD pins on my GNS430 backplate. Do I understand >> correctly that with careful depth positioning, I should be able to use >> the above tool to crimp a few high density pins too? Stein explicitly >> says that the above tool is not for HD pins, which I accepted as truth >> without any investigation. > I can't speak to the HD pins and at this point, I would take Stein's > opinion as fact unless and until Bob gets a chance to test or someone else > can chime in. I didn't have to do any HD pins. > > To be clear, the depth positioning problem is a potential problem with > standard pins. I'm guessing that the HD pin is thinner (and the Daniel's > tool handles that by changing crimp heads or something). > > I went back to my records and the crimper I have is from Stein. From > Bob's comments, it seems that the defect is not universal but you should > check. With the defect, you can make a whole bunch of substandard crimps > without realizing it... the last thing you want is some intermittent > connection among 20-some wires among a dozen different D-sub plugs. > > Bill Watson > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery disconnect switchRe: Aeroelectric-list:
Battery disconnect
From: dfritzj <dfritzj(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Feb 12, 2011
My $.02 for what it's worth and to add to your collective reflection: the battery disconnect switch also serves the purpose of shutting down the electrical system rapidly with one switch in the event of an emergency (or 'abnormal') situation. With this contactor, you need to be able to supply voltage to it in order to shut the system down, which may not be available after an off-field landing or fire (due to broken/burnt switching wires). Dan ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery disconnect switchRe: Aeroelectric-list:
Battery disconnect
From: dfritzj <dfritzj(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Feb 12, 2011
My $.02 for what it's worth and to add to your collective reflection: the battery disconnect switch also serves the purpose of shutting down the electrical system rapidly with one switch in the event of an emergency (or 'abnormal') situation. With this contactor, you need to be able to supply voltage to it in order to shut the system down, which may not be available after an off-field landing or fire (due to broken/burnt switching wires). Dan ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Icing ProceduresIcing Procedures
From: dfritzj <dfritzj(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Feb 12, 2011
One thing worth keeping in mind is that in the vast majority of fatal mishaps there is a cascading of stressors on the aircrew (poor weather, mechanical/electrical malfunction, radio chatter, etc.). Anything that can reduce one or several of those stressors is a good thing that could avoid a mishap. As most of us are used to using airspeed as an important reference during approach to land, a valid airspeed indication will be a significant stress reduction by maintaining a standard crosscheck, even if the pilot has determined a higher than normal approach speed through a controllability check at altitude. A heated pitot properly installed is a significant help in ensuring valid airspeed indications whenever operating in visible moisture (i.e. clouds). I for one will install a heated pitot in my Velocity and test it prior to every IFR flight; I recommend anyone planning IFR operations do the same. Dan ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Icing ProceduresIcing Procedures
From: dfritzj <dfritzj(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Feb 12, 2011
One thing worth keeping in mind is that in the vast majority of fatal mishaps there is a cascading of stressors on the aircrew (poor weather, mechanical/electrical malfunction, radio chatter, etc.). Anything that can reduce one or several of those stressors is a good thing that could avoid a mishap. As most of us are used to using airspeed as an important reference during approach to land, a valid airspeed indication will be a significant stress reduction by maintaining a standard crosscheck, even if the pilot has determined a higher than normal approach speed through a controllability check at altitude. A heated pitot properly installed is a significant help in ensuring valid airspeed indications whenever operating in visible moisture (i.e. clouds). I for one will install a heated pitot in my Velocity and test it prior to every IFR flight; I recommend anyone planning IFR operations do the same. Dan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2011
From: DeWitt Whittington <dee.whittington(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: AOA indicator
Even though what Bob says about the critical angle of attack changing with the accretion of ice is, of course, correct, it would be good to have an AOA indicator which was not killed by ice. I just remembered that our new Grand Rapids HX (and in fact all new Grand Rapids EFIS units) now have a "AOA Indexer" built in. They display angle of attack on the left side of the screen derived from, I think, AHARS data, not from unheated pin holes in the wing. Unfortunately, the GRT web site currently does not explain, or even mention this new feature. I've just brought this to the attention of Carlos Fernandez at GRT and he promised to update the web site. Dee At 11:19 AM 2/11/2011, you wrote: > > >At 11:24 AM 2/11/2011, you wrote: >> >> >>What effect does icing have on the accuracy of an AOA indicator? Will it >>give you an accurate indication of an impending stall if you have >>accumulated ice on the wing leading edge? > > No . . . . Most AOA displays don't give you > an 'angle' display. They generally display bands > of relative goodness/badness shaded in legacy red, yellow > and green. The display will probably be fitted with a > 'sweet spot' . . . which represents an AOA value > optimized by much flight testing. > > The problem is that the any sweet spot assumes that > the wing is clean and stall breaks at xx.x degrees. > Just lowering flaps can give you a new sweet spot at > yy.y degrees. The more sophisticated AOA display > systems will have inputs for flap position so that > the sweet spot is automatically moved to a new value > confirmed by careful flight testing. > > Once you add ice shapes on top of those super whippy, > laminar flow, high efficiency, low drag, etc etc > air foils, the stall break moves to zz.z degrees. > > Unless iced over, the AOA sensor will continue to > give you an accurate AOA display. The problem is > that any knowledge the AOA possesses with respect > to airplane performance is now suspect. > > It's not a loss of display integrity that bites. > It's a departure from performance conditions under which > IAS or AOA sweet spots were deduced. > > > Bob . . . > > DeWitt (Dee) Whittington 406 N Mulberry St Richmond, VA 23220-3320 (804) 358-4333 phone and fax SKYPE: hilltopkid dee.whittington(at)gmail.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers
At 07:50 AM 2/12/2011, you wrote: > > >I received the machine pin crimper from Steinair and it took a few >flawed crimps to realize that the depth stop was not correct for the >size machine pins I was using. > >The pin dropped too far into the crimping hole. I solved this by >cutting a piece of heavy gauge wire to the needed length and >dropping it into the hole. This prevented the pin from going too >far into the hole for good crimping. That solved the problem. > >I since discovered that the maker of that crimper makes two sizes >one for 14-22 gauge wire and the larger pins and one for 22-28 gauge >wire and smaller pins. I think the only difference is the >adjustable depth stop. 14-22 AWG is a pretty wide range for a single "squish" setting on a 4-quad tool. The Daniels tools have interchangeable positioners in addition to a 'selector knob' which adjusts the depth of punch penetration for each combination of wire/pin. http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/4-Quad/Daniels_4-Quad_3.JPG Without an adjustable penetration, the tool is limited in terms of the total amount of metal (wire strands + pin) that can be minimally upset (gas tight) to maximum upset (degradation of structural integrity). There is an IDEAL crimp for all wire/pin combinations. I think I found that 22AWG wires in HD pins were minimally installed with the Eclipse tool. Smaller wires would have to be doubled over in the pins to provide enough 'meat' to achieve the gas-tight condition when the tool closed. But that was a lot of years ago and I'd have to repeat the experiment to confirm. In any case, the Eclipse tool is just fine for the standard density pins once it's been checked and corrected as necessary for positioning of the pin. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers
>I went back to my records and the crimper I have is from >Stein. From Bob's comments, it seems that the defect is not >universal but you should check. With the defect, you can make a >whole bunch of substandard crimps without realizing it... the last >thing you want is some intermittent connection among 20-some wires >among a dozen different D-sub plugs. All the time I was selling the Eclipse tool, I found it necessary to 'fix' the positioners. At some point after I sold that business to B&C, I think we saw some tools that didn't need modification but since it wasn't my ballywick at the time, I don't recall the details. I do recall several conversations with Tim @ B&C where we discussed the necessity for checking all incoming batches of tools and fixing them as needed and marking the tools as 'modified'. Having the crimp too far back on the pin does not present a great risk. The grip on 22AWG strands is still gas-tight. There IS perhaps a compromise of design goals for resistance to breakage due to flexure of the stress-concentration at the boundary of the crimp. I would be contemplative of this only if the connector was installed without a hood for bundle support behind the connectors. If anyone discovers they've installed a bunch of mis-positioned pins with this tool, I don't think there's any need for a do-over if the connectors in question have hoods on them. This tool has been in production for decades. If there were any serious issues with what we've identified as a missed design goal, I think it would have surfaced and caused the tool to be modified by the manufacturer or discontinued. I wrote to Eclipse once making them aware of my findings. I thought that the few "on target" tools we saw might have been the result of that letter . . . or not. In any case, let's not elevate the issue to levels of concern unsupported by experience and consideration of the simple-ideas. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Battery disconnect switch
At 11:36 PM 2/11/2011, you wrote: Thinking out loud... Some failure analysis & comparison: With this new product, since it is not continually energized, it would be less susceptible to in-flight failure due to coil failure, yes? Yes, but in-flight coil failures are exceedingly rare and unlike our TC aircraft brothers, we're 'failure tolerant' of that possibility. With a conventional solenoid, if the coil breaks or burns-up, the contactor will open. Not the case w/ this device. Correct. In that same vein, it would be less prone to a failure of the wiring to the switch. With the conventional, continuous-duty solenoid, any breakage or loose connection in the wire to the master switch would cause the contactor to open. Correct, but also very rare and covered in our failure tolerant architectures. With this new latching device, once it's on, a failure the wiring to the switch would not cause it to open. Correct. For these reasons, the new device might just be a little more "reliable" than a conventional solenoid. (This, of course, assumes that it is a well-engineered, high-quality device.) It is a Tyco product so it's pedigree is good. It's obviously not a can't-ever-happen guarantee but it's still quite good. What do you think? Good thoughts all. Let's continue to consider how this device fits into (or doesn't fit) legacy design goals and in particular how it alters legacy operations. For places where this square peg gets trimmed of by driving it into a round hole, let us be sure that the return on investment is sound. For all the renting of garments and crying out in the darkness over potential component failures, battery contactors have been VERY low on the pecking order for 70+ years. In recent years, modifications to architecture (dual feed e-bus) have pushed those concerns still lower. So let's play like we're on a product improvement team for a TC light plane manufacturer where battery contactor failures are down around 93rd place on the field failures reports. What is the return on investment for changing grey-haired ol' Dobbin out for a frisky young Pinto? For airplanes with limited power generating capacity (Rotax/Jabiru machines and airplanes with SD-8 main alternator), the no-power maintenance of a closed condition is a definite plus. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2011
From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Battery disconnect switch
On 2/11/2011 3:18 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 04:05 PM 2/11/2011, you wrote: >> Bob do you normally run your starter through this contactor? > > Sure. It's been done in a couple hundred thousand > airplanes for 70 years. > > This contactor doesn't have to SWITCH starter current, > only CARRY it. Not a big deal > > > Bob . . . I know that's conventional wisdom. But isn't it also conventional wisdom that one reason starter current is routed through the main contactor is so that in the event of a stuck starter contactor, the starter can be disabled using the main contactor? Is the logic that the main contactor only has to do it *once*? Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AOA indicator
>They display angle of attack on the left side of the screen derived >from, I think, AHARS data, not from unheated pin holes in the wing. > >Unfortunately, the GRT web site currently does not explain, or even >mention this new feature. I've just brought this to the attention of >Carlos Fernandez at GRT and he promised to update the web site. How does it matter where and how some AOA value is measured or synthesized once the wing is iced? I was once enamored of the delta-p AOA sensor designs. There have been a number of articles published on the technique. I've posted a collection of my archived articles at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Angle_of_Attack/ There was an article in a Sport Aviation issue in 2005 for a DIY AOA sensor/display package. Anyone got a copy in their library? I'd sure like to read a copy. The common thread that runs through these articles is an absence of discussion as to when the readings so carefully calibrated and displayed are not to be trusted. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2011
From: John Grosse <grosseair(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers AND Vertical Power
Crimper There's a bit of confusion evident in the replies so far: The "expensive one" that you rent for $10 a month or buy for $300 is NOT to crimp D-sub pins, standard or high density. It is to crimp Molex MX-150 pins which are used on the Vertical Power units. All of the post previously apply to D-subs. The crimper from Vertical power is totally different and as far as I can figure out it is the only one you can use. I've priced them elsewhere and found that $300 from Vertical Power is a bargain. You're going to need at least two crimpers, one for the VP-X power plugs and one for D-subs. Hope this answers you original question. John Grosse MLWynn(at)aol.com wrote: > On the Vertical Power web site (am an installing a VP-X system) they > say to only use the high priced crimper. They will rent you one for > $10 a month or sell in to $300. Steinair has a high priced Daniels > Crimper > http://steinair.com/images/store/afm8.jpg > Which they describe as good for regular and high density pins. > So, my basic questions are: > 1. what is the difference between standard machined sub-D pins and > high density pins? > 2. Am I okay with the RCT-3 crimper or should I rent or buy an > expensive one? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery disconnect switch
>> This contactor doesn't have to SWITCH starter current, >> only CARRY it. Not a big deal >I know that's conventional wisdom. But isn't it also conventional >wisdom that one reason starter current is routed through the main >contactor is so that in the event of a stuck starter contactor, the >starter can be disabled using the main contactor? Yes . . . >Is the logic that the main contactor only has to do it *once*? . . . or never. I've never experienced a stuck starter contactor. I've only been aware of a few incidents where B&C customers suffered the event without benefit of back up for killing power to the starter. Neither even destroyed the starter but one really melted the battery box case. Remember that contactor service life predictions are based upon switching certain kinds of loads usually in a laboratory environment. Hence the wide variation in 'ratings' for a switch or contactor that control incandescent lamps, DC motors, windshield de-ice heaters, etc. But in no case do we see switches or contactors offered with less than THOUSANDS of cycles at their various 'rated' loads. So the notion that a 70A rated contactor (70 series RPM/Stancor/White-Rogers) is in mortal danger for having interrupted a 200A stuck starter once, twice or even a few dozen times is not supported by experience or physics. Having said that, there IS a situation where an el-cheepo contactor is at much greater risk for opening a out-of-ratings load. Figure Z-24 proposes controlling the b-lead of a runaway alternator. If the voltage rises fast enough during contact spreading, there is a risk of sustained arcing between the fully spread contacts. This is one case where the contactor might experience a one-time event that leads to it's destruction. But better it's a $25 contactor than more valuable/useful system components. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers AND Vertical Power
Crimper >You're going to need at least two crimpers, one for the VP-X power >plugs and one for D-subs. >Hope this answers you original question. > >John Grosse Thanks John, I missed that point too. Steinar offers the Daniels or 4-quad crimper and an array of positioners for pins of interest for sale to the OBAM aircraft community. Emacs! --------------------------------------------------------- The VP tools are a finely tuned, ratcheted operated die set to close the open barrel, sheet metal pins ---------------------------------------------------------- Emacs! Thanks for raising that flag! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2011
From: paul wilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com>
Subject: Re: AOA indicator
Interestinb, but production units are out there. Lets not ignore what Elbie said about the AOA in icing contitions. For sure he is the guru on these devices for all kinds of airplanes http://www.riteangle.com/ PaulW ======== At 06:55 AM 2/12/2011, you wrote: > > > >>They display angle of attack on the left side of the screen derived >>from, I think, AHARS data, not from unheated pin holes in the wing. >> >>Unfortunately, the GRT web site currently does not explain, or even >>mention this new feature. I've just brought this to the attention >>of Carlos Fernandez at GRT and he promised to update the web site. > > How does it matter where and how some AOA value is > measured or synthesized once the wing is iced? > > I was once enamored of the delta-p AOA sensor > designs. There have been a number of articles > published on the technique. I've posted a collection > of my archived articles at: > >http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Angle_of_Attack/ > > There was an article in a Sport Aviation issue in > 2005 for a DIY AOA sensor/display package. Anyone > got a copy in their library? I'd sure like to > read a copy. > > The common thread that runs through these articles > is an absence of discussion as to when the readings > so carefully calibrated and displayed are not > to be trusted. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2011
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers
I recall the wires on the Ray Allen trim servos to be (frustratingly) smaller than 22AWG. Doubling them over worked easily and well in the standard pins as I recall. The rule of thumb here may be, "if you can double the conductor over and easily insert it into the barrel, then do it to get the best crimp" It was after that experience that I realized how nice and versatile the D-Sub pins and plugs were. As an old RC modeler, I had originally attempted to used Deans plugs for the trim servos. They are high quality, solder-based, light weight compact multi-pin connectors that have been used extensively in RC. http://bit.ly/fwl8os Upon reflection, the Deans plugs rely on good soldering skills, have no support, and are otherwise bad solutions for our stuff. > > There is an IDEAL crimp for all wire/pin > combinations. I think I found that 22AWG > wires in HD pins were minimally installed > with the Eclipse tool. Smaller wires would > have to be doubled over in the pins to > provide enough 'meat' to achieve the > gas-tight condition when the tool closed. > But that was a lot of years ago and I'd > have to repeat the experiment to confirm. > > In any case, the Eclipse tool is just fine > for the standard density pins once it's > been checked and corrected as necessary > for positioning of the pin. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Soldered D-sub machined pins
From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net>
Date: Feb 12, 2011
Putting this out there in case I'm overlooking an issue For the few D-sub machined pins that I've needed to install, I have soldered 22 awg to them and put some heatshrink over the top of the pin and the wire insulation. Still fits into the hole of the plug. I know that this makes a less flexible connection than a crimp, but with the heatshrink over the pin and wire in addition to the backshell clamping the wire bundle, I think that vibration isolation has been properly addressed. What say you more experienced electronic folk? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330771#330771 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Honeywell Rocker lamp wiring
From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net>
Date: Feb 12, 2011
In wiring my HW rocker lamps, I'm pulling power off of the load side of the switch so that the lamp only lights when the switch is on. I'm daisy chaining the ground legs I got a Perihelion dimmer to control brightness and plan to run the ground leg of the lamps into the power pin of the trim pot and run the variable output to ground. Is there faulty logic in this plan? How are others doing HW lamp control/wiring and why? Thanks, John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330773#330773 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AOA indicator
At 11:57 AM 2/12/2011, you wrote: > >Interestinb, but production units are out there. Yup, lots of them . . . >Lets not ignore what Elbie said about the AOA in icing contitions. >For sure he is the guru on these devices for all kinds of airplanes But what do YOU understand and are willing to pass along to the less informed as to the value of and AOA sensor and display system? What statements have been made by myself or anyone else that you find in error? Is it your understanding that Elbie claims that the "sweet spot" on his or any other AOA display is golden under all challenges that a pilot might face for comfortable arrival with the earth? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: ALTRAK Dimmer Circuit
From: "Mark Sletten" <marknlisa(at)hometel.com>
Date: Feb 12, 2011
Im installing a dimmer circuit for an Altrak module per the manual (see attachment). The manual calls for a 6.8k Ohm resistor between the lamp and J1, PIN 1. I was unable to find a 6.8k Ohm resistor locally, so on the advice of a Trutrak tech I used a 5k Ohm resistor instead. The dimmer Im using (http://www.periheliondesign.com/egpavr.htm) utilizes an LM317T Integrated Circuit voltage regulator. I have several other instrument lights connected to this device and they all operate properly. As currently wired, the Altrak lamp does not dim until I reach the very end of the control movement on the dimmer, when all the other lamps connected to it are already off. The Altrak lamp goes from full on to full off in the last 5% (approx) of the dimmers control movement. It seems I should be able to add another resistor between the dimmer and the 470 Ohm resistor already installed, but Im not sure what range to use. Any advice would be appreciated! -------- Mark Sletten Legacy FG N828LM http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330782#330782 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/altrakdimmer_163.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sheldon Olesen <saolesen(at)sirentel.net>
Subject: Warning tone
Date: Feb 12, 2011
Hi Bob, I designed a door-throttle warning system for my RV-10 that was heavily influenced by the Long-EZ canopy-throttle-gear warning system. It has a warning horn that goes off if the throttle is wide open and the door pins are not in the correct position. My problem is my Bose headsets are very good at canceling the horn noise. Is there a simple way to make a device to add an obnoxious tone through the audio panel? A couple of inputs to the device would also take care of the stall warning horn. Thanks, Sheldon Olesen ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Honeywell Rocker lamp wiring
At 12:47 PM 2/12/2011, you wrote: > >In wiring my HW rocker lamps, I'm pulling power off of the load side >of the switch so that the lamp only lights when the switch is on. >I'm daisy chaining the ground legs > >I got a Perihelion dimmer to control brightness and plan to run the >ground leg of the lamps into the power pin of the trim pot and run >the variable output to ground. > >Is there faulty logic in this plan? Only if the device was not designed to include this mode of operation. Suggest you contact the guy who designed and builds the product. My best guess is that it will not function as you wish with the connection proposed. A ground side dimmer is a different breed of cat. If you want build one, I can sketch it out. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Soldered D-sub machined pins
At 12:36 PM 2/12/2011, you wrote: > >Putting this out there in case I'm overlooking an issue > >For the few D-sub machined pins that I've needed to install, I have >soldered 22 awg to them and put some heatshrink over the top of the >pin and the wire insulation. Still fits into the hole of the plug. > >I know that this makes a less flexible connection than a crimp, Crimps and solder are for all practical purposes interchangeable . . . >but with the heatshrink over the pin and wire in addition to the >backshell clamping the wire bundle, I think that vibration isolation >has been properly addressed. > >What say you more experienced electronic folk? I've soldered many a machined pin without regard or concern for extra-ordinary vibration isolation. Reduction of stress due to vibration comes from bundle support in the D-sub hood. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob Leffler" <rv(at)thelefflers.com>
Subject: Warning tone
Date: Feb 12, 2011
Sheldon, Here are a couple tone generators. I'm sure that there are more. Then just route to your intercom. http://www.vx-aviation.com/page_2.html#AL-1A_more http://www.gretzaero.com/Toneboard.html bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sheldon Olesen Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2011 11:54 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Warning tone Hi Bob, I designed a door-throttle warning system for my RV-10 that was heavily influenced by the Long-EZ canopy-throttle-gear warning system. It has a warning horn that goes off if the throttle is wide open and the door pins are not in the correct position. My problem is my Bose headsets are very good at canceling the horn noise. Is there a simple way to make a device to add an obnoxious tone through the audio panel? A couple of inputs to the device would also take care of the stall warning horn. Thanks, Sheldon Olesen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com>
Subject: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers
Date: Feb 12, 2011
That is pretty much correct. We do the same modifications to the tool that Bob describes (if someone doesn't they just aren't quite right.as far as I'm aware we are the only 2 who do that). Anyway, this crimpers can actually be used for HD pins but you need to manually make sure the pin is positioned properly. We don't say they are for HD pins because out of the box they are not, and one wouldn't want to try and use them for production type work. We could probably make a new center pin for them but if you're careful you can indeed use them for HD pins by just visually making sure they pin is positioned properly or make a new pin for the crimper. Anyway, that's the deal..hope that helps. Cheers, Stein From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jared Yates Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 9:19 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers If I understand correctly, this is great news. I have this crimper: http://steinair.com/images/store/SAT004.jpg but was just scratching my head figuring out how I was going to handle what appear to be HD pins on my GNS430 backplate. Do I understand correctly that with careful depth positioning, I should be able to use the above tool to crimp a few high density pins too? Stein explicitly says that the above tool is not for HD pins, which I accepted as truth without any investigation. On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 8:26 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: At 08:40 PM 2/11/2011, you wrote: FWIW, I just posted my experience with a low cost crimper on my log: http://www.mykitlog.com/users/category.php?user=MauleDriver <http://www.mykitlog.com/users/category.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&cat egory=6577> &project=224&category=6577 Though I can't justify buying a $300 crimper for the project now, you can pay a price for going cheaper unless you are careful. The D-Sub wire/pin connection is really easy, fast, clean and seems reliable but it can be screwed up by a defective tool. I'm happy with my repaired cheap crimper at this point. Bob, thanks again for helping me get to the bottom of this one last year. Sure. I'd forgotten about that conversation. B&C had been doing the same checks and modifications to the RTC-3 tools as described in this folder of my website: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Crimp_Tools/4-Quad/ I modified all the crimpers I was selling and marked the tools as AEC Modified. But Bill reminded me that the cognizant purchaser of this tool will check for the necessary modification. Bob . . . ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2011
From: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: AOA indicator
If you are an EAA member you can see ALL back issues of Sport Aviation on http://www.oshkosh365.org If that doesn't do it for you I do have the 2005 issues but I would have to see what issue it was in. Do you remember what month? Dick Tasker Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > There was an article in a Sport Aviation issue in > 2005 for a DIY AOA sensor/display package. Anyone > got a copy in their library? I'd sure like to > read a copy. -- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2011
From: paul wilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com>
Subject: Re: AOA indicator
I do noy have his message, but it went like any chance of icing forget about the aoa As the readings will be bad.. PaulW = At 09:27 AM 2/12/2011, you wrote: > > >At 11:57 AM 2/12/2011, you wrote: >> >>Interestinb, but production units are out there. > > Yup, lots of them . . . > >>Lets not ignore what Elbie said about the AOA in icing contitions. >>For sure he is the guru on these devices for all kinds of airplanes > > But what do YOU understand and are willing to pass > along to the less informed as to the value of > and AOA sensor and display system? What statements > have been made by myself or anyone else that you > find in error? Is it your understanding that Elbie > claims that the "sweet spot" on his or any other > AOA display is golden under all challenges that > a pilot might face for comfortable arrival with > the earth? > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Honeywell Rocker lamp wiring
From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net>
Date: Feb 12, 2011
> A ground side dimmer is a different breed of > cat. If you want build one, I can sketch it > out. Bob, So glad to see that you've finally run out of things to do and are spending your days whittling while waiting to solve my hare-brained ideas :) If you can find the time, I'd appreciate your sketch, as I can't see how to use the Perehelion dimmer to do what I want, if it won't dim through the ground side. Noodling... If I use the dimmer as intended and hook the variable output to the lamp, with a parallel jumper from the load side of the switch to the lamp, the lamp would be governed by the dimmer when the switch was off. The lamp would brighten to full when the switch was on, giving me the differentiation of OFF/ON that I seek, but would the increased voltage cause a problem back feeding dimmer? Maybe a diode on the dimmer output would prevent that? Probably a question for Eric. John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330810#330810 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Speedy11(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 12, 2011
Subject: Re: Battery disconnect switch
The device is very noisy (86db) so you'd probably want to mount it somewhere where the noise is not bothersome. Stan Sutterfield In a message dated 2/12/2011 3:09:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com writes: ... a quick glance at the fact sheet indicates that a non-latching version is also available...hmmmm... so why do we (I) want one? 1. includes coil spike-suppression diodes 2. looks cool ;) 3. Price is not bad It's only a little more expensive than the "standard" can-shaped solenoids http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php. Mounting will be different. If we use the latching capability, does is make circuitry simpler, more reliable, better, stronger, faster, (will it help prevent icing? - sorry, couldn't resist ;) I'm w/ Bob, definitely needs more noodling.. -Jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net>
Subject: Re: AOA indicator
Date: Feb 12, 2011
<< How does it matter where and how some AOA value is measured or synthesized once the wing is iced? >> The Dynon AOA sensor is a single heated probe with two holes which replaces the standard pitot sensor. It has temperature control so you just leave it on all the time. Thus is it relatively immune to icing. This means I will have one less distracter when I follow Bob's (and others) great advice to get the heck out of wherever I am if ice is encountered. Tom Kuffel ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2011
From: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: AOA indicator
While the AOA is relatively immune to icing, and it's output is accurate for your clean wings, it doesn't have any way to know the wings are iced up or how to take into consideration the degradation in performance when the wings have ice on them. Therefore, if you pay attention to it's readings you could end up stalling. That is what the original poster was referring to. Even though the AOA is working perfectly, it is giving you false information. Dick Tasker The Kuffels wrote: > > > << How does it matter where and how some AOA value is measured or > synthesized once the wing is iced? >> > > The Dynon AOA sensor is a single heated probe with two holes which > replaces the standard pitot sensor. It has temperature control so you > just leave it on all the time. Thus is it relatively immune to > icing. This means I will have one less distracter when I follow Bob's > (and others) great advice to get the heck out of wherever I am if ice > is encountered. > > > Tom Kuffel > > -- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2011
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Honeywell Rocker lamp wiring
I just posted some pics of my installation here: http://www.mykitlog.com/users/category.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&category=5253 My thinking is that I want the switches to be lit and dimmable in low light/night. So the switch lighting is wired completely independent from any switch function. The switches themselves are very visible in day light and their position clearly indicated off/or or whatever. It does take a fair amount of wiring just for the lighting. I too used 1 of 3 Perihelion dimmers to control the switches. You can see in the pics how I used a single D-Sub connector as a power and ground bus for all the lights, a design I copied or adapted from one of Bob's notes. I can't speak to the ground side dimming but I'm not sure why you'd want to try to tie the lighting to switch function. These particular switches indicate function very elegantly independent from the back lighting. I did use a related set of 6 Honeywell square backlit indicators for the usual suspects plus door pin warning. Nice aesthetic match with the rockers. Sourcing the rockers was interesting. Aerotronics product mall is a good place to start but getting the right switch for autopilot switching and the flap switch was a bit trickier. http://www.avionicsmall.com/ BTW, cutting square holes with a square file is surprisingly easy, even in thick panel stock. I like 'em so far. Can't wait to fly with them. Bill "excited by the warm weather so painting can be completed" Watson On 2/12/2011 12:47 PM, jonlaury wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "jonlaury" > > In wiring my HW rocker lamps, I'm pulling power off of the load side of the switch so that the lamp only lights when the switch is on. I'm daisy chaining the ground legs > > I got a Perihelion dimmer to control brightness and plan to run the ground leg of the lamps into the power pin of the trim pot and run the variable output to ground. > > Is there faulty logic in this plan? > > How are others doing HW lamp control/wiring and why? > > Thanks, > John > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Open squelch
From: "Brantel" <bchesteen(at)hughes.net>
Date: Feb 12, 2011
What firmware on the A210? I ask because I just had mine updated to 1.53 and ever since I have had squelch issues. I used to run mine at 3 and now even at 10 I have problems with open squelch all the time.... I think maybe ICom broke something with this revision... To get the firmware #, hold in the freq swap button while turning on the power.. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330834#330834 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Battery disconnect switch
Date: Feb 13, 2011
Always mount disconnect switches as close to the battery as possible. Cessna actually mounts theirs on the battery box (C-180) They also mount the relay for ground power on the box. Noel From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11(at)aol.com Sent: February 12, 2011 9:34 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery disconnect switch The device is very noisy (86db) so you'd probably want to mount it somewhere where the noise is not bothersome. Stan Sutterfield In a message dated 2/12/2011 3:09:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com writes: ... a quick glance at the fact sheet indicates that a non-latching version is also available...hmmmm... so why do we (I) want one? 1. includes coil spike-suppression diodes 2. looks cool ;) 3. Price is not bad It's only a little more expensive than the "standard" can-shaped solenoids http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php. Mounting will be different. If we use the latching capability, does is make circuitry simpler, more reliable, better, stronger, faster, (will it help prevent icing? - sorry, couldn't resist ;) I'm w/ Bob, definitely needs more noodling.. -Jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2011
From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Open squelch
On 2/12/2011 6:50 PM, Brantel wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Brantel" > > What firmware on the A210? > > I ask because I just had mine updated to 1.53 and ever since I have had squelch issues. I used to run mine at 3 and now even at 10 I have problems with open squelch all the time.... > > I think maybe ICom broke something with this revision... > > To get the firmware #, hold in the freq swap button while turning on the power.. > > > I must have missed the rest of this thread, but I also have an A210 with squelch issues. I posted re: this a few weeks ago. If my GRT equipment is on I have to set the Icom at 10. I'm going to wait until it is all installed in the aircraft to see if there is really a problem or not. Meanwhile I just sent it in for the latest firmware upgrade. Evidently that may have some impact on the squelch from what I'm hearing. Tim > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net>
Subject: Re: AOA indicator
Date: Feb 12, 2011
Hi Dick, << That is what the original poster was referring to. Even though the AOA is working perfectly, it is giving you false information. >> And what I'm referring to is if I take avoidance action, as I should, the instant ice is encountered I don't have to worry about my Dynon giving me "false information". It will still tell me accurately if my angle of attack is well above stall with clean wings. While I don't know what my stall margin actually is at the moment I'm certainly better off than with no or incorrect AOA information. In other words, as compared to some other AOA systems the Dynon is giving me true information. My job is to apply judgement to take actions which prevent the stall margin at normal cruise AOA from narrowing to zero. And I get whatever benefit/insurance, however minor, of a heated pitot. Tom Kuffel ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Machine Pin sub-D crimpers
From: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Date: Feb 12, 2011
Hi Group I modified my Steinair D-sub crimper (and Jans the same time) by making new pins and moving them to the other side of the spring. See pics DSCN5312 thru 16: http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=30957 I believe the tool with the modified ratchet is probably for High Density pins, but with the ratchet ground off the last two clicks works well for D-subs as well. Anyway if you have a tool that is over-crimping D-sub machined pins, all hope is not lost Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330857#330857 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2011
From: James Robinson <jbr79r(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: solid state relays
Hi Bob What is your opinion of these relays as replacements for the mechanical relays we have been using? Jim Robinson www.newark.com/crydom+relay ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Battery disconnect switch
Date: Feb 12, 2011
Stan, Not sure what you mean by noisy. Can you be more specific? 1. Is the noise continuous? 2. Is this device any noisier than the traditional solenoid? 3. Have you done some kind of testing or do you have you worked w/ this device? TIA, -Jeff _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11(at)aol.com Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2011 17:04 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery disconnect switch The device is very noisy (86db) so you'd probably want to mount it somewhere where the noise is not bothersome. Stan Sutterfield In a message dated 2/12/2011 3:09:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com writes: ... a quick glance at the fact sheet indicates that a non-latching version is also available...hmmmm... so why do we (I) want one? 1. includes coil spike-suppression diodes 2. looks cool ;) 3. Price is not bad It's only a little more expensive than the "standard" can-shaped solenoids


February 05, 2011 - February 13, 2011

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