AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ko

July 16, 2011 - August 17, 2011



      >    transceivers where the antenna is connected to a receiver
      >    input circuit 99.9% of the time, the ELT antenna is
      >    permanently connected to the output circuitry of a
      >    transmitter's power output stage.
      >
      >    A strong analog TV station impressed on the ELT
      >    antenna could be conducted into the non-linear,
      >    transistor junctions where the TV signal could
      >    produce inter-modulation products that spread over
      >    a very wide spectrum. Now that we're all-digital
      >    in the off-air TV world, I suspect probability
      >    is reduced. I'm aware of no other "trash rich"
      >    high power signals that would produce this
      >    effect today.
      >
      >    This is a phenomenon that was never explored
      >    by DO-160 although I've read some military
      >    qualification test protocols that do look for
      >    inter-modulation mixing and re-radiation of
      >    foreign energies coming down the antenna feedline.
      >
      >
      >   Bob . . .
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 16, 2011
Subject: Re: ELT antenna placement
From: Paul Kuntz <paul.r.kuntz(at)gmail.com>
Thanks for all the feedback. Seems like the prudent approach will be to accept the ELT installation instructions and mount the ELT at the specified 3+ feet of separation from the VHF antenna. I'd rather do that now than face the potential for troubleshooting and installation rework later. Paul Kuntz On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 7:51 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com**> > > > At 07:10 AM 7/16/2011, you wrote: > dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)**gmail.com > > > I agree, I've seen comm radios set of a nearby ELT on several > occasions. It's not uncommon at all. > > I'd keep those antennas away from each other. > > It would appear to be the only option. It > may be very $difficult$ to fix what appears > to be a design bug internal to the ELT. > > The earliest ELT's used a spring-loaded > mass to close an activation switch in response > to g-forces of a crash. No doubt modern ELTs > use the solid-state acceleration sensors > for this task . . . which produce VERY tiny > signals requiring a lot of circuit gain. > > This type of circuitry offers a high risk > of vulnerability to RF interference. This > may be an area where qualification of the > device to standard DO-160 (good for part > 23) stresses was insufficient to stand off > the extra-ordinary vulnerabilities of these > kinds of circuits. A lot of hardware we > did for the military and for Part-25 and up > applications was exposed to really nasty > RF radiation . . . 200 volts/meter or more > . . . during qualification. No doubt this > extra step in qualification would have exposed > vulnerabilities that are now plaguing customers. > > > Paul wrote: > > > I'm installing a 121.5/406 MHz ELT in my homebuilt project. =C2 The > > > installation instructions tell me to put the ELT whip antenna at least 3 > > feet from my VHF radio antenna. =C2 Is this really necessary? =C2 There is > the > > > possibility of manually activating the ELT in the air in the event of a n > > emergency, while continuing to communicate with the VHF radio, but I'm > > thinking that the more likely scenarios will be to operate one or the > other, > > but not both. =C2 That is, the ELT becomes a factor only in the case of a > true > > > emergency, in which case I would first squawk emergency and communicate > the > > situation by VHF voice (flying the airplane first, of course). =C2 Then , > > > activate the ELT (one button press) if a forced landing appears > inevitable, > > but I'm probably done talking on the radio at that point. > > > > Is the concern simply the presence of another vertically oriented > conductor > > in relatively close proximity to the antenna in use, thus influencing i ts > > performance? =C2 Even if both the ELT and the VHF radio are active at t he > same > > > time, is 3 ft of separation important? > > > > At any rate, it would be more convenient from an installation perspecti ve > to > > put them closer together. =C2 Any advice? > > Give it a try . . . but with a Plan-B for moving > one or both of the antennas to achieve demonstrably > necessary separation. I suspect that not all ELT > products are victim to the hypothesized vulnerability > I cited above. There are no grave performance issues > that would arise from antenna proximity issues so if > you "get away Scott free" with your desired configuration, > you're good to go. > > > Bob . . . > > =====**=================== ===========**= /www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> =====**=================== ===========**= =====**=================== ===========**= com/contribution> =====**=================== ===========**= > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Zimmer" <stickandrudder1(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Electrical System Drawing
Date: Jul 16, 2011
Attached is a draft electrical schematic based primarily on Bob Nuckolls' Z-13 electrical system drawing. Note that I plan on using an internally regulated Plane Power 30A backup alternator, which is supposed to be out by Oshkosh. If not, I'll use the B&C SD-20. The reason for the second 7.2 AH battery is to insure field current to the backup alternator in the event of main battery failure. I have thought of using a second full sized battery as the AUX, which I would connect in parallel with the main battery for more cranking power. Questions I have are: Is an Avionics bus & switch unnecessary or is it still a good idea? I like the idea, and I know the GTX 327 is supposed to be powered off during engine start. Also the GTN 6xx install doc says it should be on an Avionics bus. Others have suggested (and even said that Bob Nuckolls doesn't think much of the idea in his book - although I couldn't find anywhere he discussed it) that the avionics bus is unnecessary with modern avionics, adds complexity and additional potential points of failure. Bob doesn't show it on the drawings I've studied, so I'm wondering. What are the failure modes of the EBUS Diode? Will it ever fail open? If it fails and allows reverse current, what is the best way to detect the failure? My schematic has a battery bus drawn, but I really don't see a need for it. Other than a clock and interior lights, is there something that I have placed on another bus that really should be on a battery bus? What about the location of the backup alternator? I show it connected to the essential bus instead of the un-switched side of the battery contactor, in the event of a dead short in the battery. I'm not sure if that's a failure mode I need to even consider. Another thing I've though of is although I haven't done a load analysis yet, but I'm pretty sure with a 30A backup alternator, I could combine the Avionics and E-Bus busses (the only things that would be added to the E-BUS would be Com2, Transponder and audio panel. Any comments and criticism of the design would be greatly appreciated. The aircraft I am building is an RV-7A. The mission is day/night IFR. Thanks Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Zimmer" <stickandrudder1(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Electrical System Drawing
Date: Jul 16, 2011
Attached is a draft electrical schematic based primarily on Bob Nuckolls' Z-13 electrical system drawing. Note that I plan on using an internally regulated Plane Power 30A backup alternator, which is supposed to be out by Oshkosh. If not, I'll use the B&C SD-20. The reason for the second 7.2 AH battery is to insure field current to the backup alternator in the event of main battery failure. I have thought of using a second full sized battery as the AUX, which I would connect in parallel with the main battery for more cranking power. Questions I have are: Is an Avionics bus & switch unnecessary or is it still a good idea? I like the idea, and I know the GTX 327 is supposed to be powered off during engine start. Also the GTN 6xx install doc says it should be on an Avionics bus. Others have suggested (and even said that Bob Nuckolls doesn't think much of the idea in his book - although I couldn't find anywhere he discussed it) that the avionics bus is unnecessary with modern avionics, adds complexity and additional potential points of failure. Bob doesn't show it on the drawings I've studied, so I'm wondering. What are the failure modes of the EBUS Diode? Will it ever fail open? If it fails and allows reverse current, what is the best way to detect the failure? My schematic has a battery bus drawn, but I really don't see a need for it. Other than a clock and interior lights, is there something that I have placed on another bus that really should be on a battery bus? What about the location of the backup alternator? I show it connected to the essential bus instead of the un-switched side of the battery contactor, in the event of a dead short in the battery. I'm not sure if that's a failure mode I need to even consider. Another thing I've though of is although I haven't done a load analysis yet, but I'm pretty sure with a 30A backup alternator, I could combine the Avionics and E-Bus busses (the only things that would be added to the E-BUS would be Com2, Transponder and audio panel. Any comments and criticism of the design would be greatly appreciated. The aircraft I am building is an RV-7A. The mission is day/night IFR. Thanks Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: multiple shield ground wires
From: "jayb" <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jul 17, 2011
When multiple shielded wires pass through a common connector ... Does each shield need its own separate pin or can several shields be ganged together in a single pin? Shields eventually come together at a common ground point someplace, right? Thanks, Jay Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=346749#346749 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: EGT Readings Change when Transmitting
From: "ChangDriver" <capav8r(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 17, 2011
Bob: I have noticed an odd thing happening on my digital EGT display. When I key the microphone to transmit on the Garmin SL-30, the graphical EGT display bars are driven down to zero. I short key of the mic and they go down a little....hold it keyed and they go to zero. Any suggestions on what to look for/do? Craig Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=346751#346751 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 17, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: EGT Readings Change when Transmitting
At 06:58 AM 7/17/2011, you wrote: > >Bob: > >I have noticed an odd thing happening on my digital EGT >display. When I key the microphone to transmit on the Garmin SL-30, >the graphical EGT display bars are driven down to zero. I short key >of the mic and they go down a little....hold it keyed and they go to zero. > >Any suggestions on what to look for/do? In all likelihood this is a manifestation of poor design in EGT gauge's electro- magnetic compatibility. Since you know the condition exists and does not represent a hazard to flight or even an operational inconvenience, I'd ignore it. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 17, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Electrical System Drawing
At 09:46 PM 7/16/2011, you wrote: Attached is a draft electrical schematic based primarily on Bob Nuckolls' Z-13 electrical system drawing. Note that I plan on using an internally regulated Plane Power 30A backup alternator, which is supposed to be out by Oshkosh. If not, I'll use the B&C SD-20. The reason for the second 7.2 AH battery is to insure field current to the backup alternator in the event of main battery failure. I have thought of using a second full sized battery as the AUX, which I would connect in parallel with the main battery for more cranking power. Questions I have are: Is an Avionics bus & switch unnecessary or is it still a good idea? I like the idea, and I know the GTX 327 is supposed to be powered off during engine start. Also the GTN 6xx install doc says it should be on an Avionics bus. Others have suggested (and even said that Bob Nuckolls doesnt think much of the idea in his book although I couldnt find anywhere he discussed it) that the avionics bus is unnecessary with modern avionics, adds complexity and additional potential points of failure. Bob doesnt show it on the drawings Ive studied, so Im wondering. Go to AeroElectric.com and do a search on avionics master. The original ideas behind the birth of the avionics master was a figment of the designer's imagination. The enduring rationale for the AV master is not based on physics or facts. What are the failure modes of the EBUS Diode? Will it ever fail open? If it fails and allows reverse current, what is the best way to detect the failure? They don't fail. My schematic has a battery bus drawn, but I really don't see a need for it. Other than a clock and interior lights, is there something that I have placed on another bus that really should be on a battery bus? Do you have an electrically dependent engine? Those items should be on a battery bus. If you're going to have two alternators and two batteries, suggest Z-14 instead. What about the location of the backup alternator? I show it connected to the essential bus instead of the un-switched side of the battery contactor, in the event of a dead short in the battery. I'm not sure if that's a failure mode I need to even consider. Another thing Ive though of is although I havent done a load analysis yet, but Im pretty sure with a 30A backup alternator, I could combine the Avionics and E-Bus busses (the only things that would be added to the E-BUS would be Com2, Transponder and audio panel. Any comments and criticism of the design would be greatly appreciated. I know there are compelling notions of "doing it a little bit better" but as your list of questions illustrates, making changes generates new uncertainties. The Z-figures have already been subjected to the same questions over the last 20+ years. By now they are 99.9% free of unknowns. Suggest you study Z-14 and develop a list of questions that address and perceptions you have of not meeting design goals for your airplane. It's much more comfortable to start with a proven recipe for success and then see if serious design goals are not being met. If it were my airplane, I'd save a LOT of dollars, weight and worry with Z-13/8. That system offers overall reliability that a King Air doesn't have. Only in the last 20 years has Z-12 found its way onto type certificated aircraft in large quantities. The vast majority of TC aircraft use the same architecture as a 1946 C-140A Your concerns about failures of diodes and batteries suggest that you're not comfortable with the idea that reliability of these things is very high when used with understanding. It's far better that you have a SIMPLE system you understand than a NOT SO SIMPLE system born of mis-understanding. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 17, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: multiple shield ground wires
At 06:32 AM 7/17/2011, you wrote: > >When multiple shielded wires pass through a common connector ... >Does each shield need its own separate pin or can several shields be >ganged together in a single pin? Shields eventually come together at >a common ground point someplace, right? yes see: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/pigtail/pigtail.html Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: multiple shield ground wires
From: "jayb" <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jul 17, 2011
Cool! It's been a while since I read over all the neat tricks and tips. Another simple question... Audio wire drawings show shield ground at intercomm (real ground), but open circle at the end-point (i.e. shield pulled back and covered with heat shrink). This one I get. Other schematics (ADS600B) show shield grounds at both ends of the wire. Really? It would seem unwise to physically ground both sides, so maybe I'm not understanding the intent. Thanks, Jay Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=346781#346781 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 17, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Electrical System Drawing
At 09:46 PM 7/16/2011, you wrote: >Attached is a draft electrical schematic based primarily on Bob >Nuckolls' Z-13 electrical system drawing. Note that I plan on using >an internally regulated Plane Power 30A backup alternator, which is >supposed to be out by Oshkosh. Do you really NEED that much back-up power? What are the load analysis numbers for the minimum loads to get you to airport of intended destination while saving the battery for approach to landing? > >Another thing I've though of is although I haven't done a load >analysis yet, but I'm pretty sure with a 30A backup alternator, I >could combine the Avionics and E-Bus busses (the only things that >would be added to the E-BUS would be Com2, Transponder and audio panel. Loan analysis needs to be first . . . before you size alternators. Also, keep in mind that intermittent loads like landing lights, transmit current are not continuous running loads. Can you get your ENDURANCE loads down to 8A or less? If you do a search of unhappy events in the cockpit leading to bent airplanes and/or bleeding people, the percentage of total incidents involving electrical system failures is exceedingly small. A majority of those instances could have been mitigated by better pilot understanding and good preventative maintenance. It's comforting to add redundancy on top of band-aid on top of worry issue . . . but all of these have costs of ownership. I passed a big pile of first-aid kits in the pharmacy at Walmart last week. I think they were $5. If Wallyworld sells them, they must move out the door in significant numbers. I've been driving for over 50 years, owned dozens of cars and probably had at least a half-dozen first-aid kits of one form or another. I can recall no single instance of ever using the contents of such kits . . . nor finding myself in a position of wishing I had one. You are far more likely to enjoy a high order of reliability by careful study of what's need should any single device fail . . . and developing a plan-B for that failure. The goal is not to keep everything lit up all the time, only those things needed for getting to airport of intended destination so that the battery alone will get you on the ground with lights a blazing both inside and outside the cockpit. Every serious accident we've studied here on the list that grew of out electrical systems issues had root cause in poor craftsmanship and/or poor judgement and lack of understanding of the system. Adding more hardware will generally not do much to offset those human frailties. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: Circuit Design Software
Date: Jul 17, 2011
When I was in technical school and had to produce many wiring block diagrams I used Photoshop. It was easy to make the blocks, colour them and label connections. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: July 15, 2011 10:54 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Circuit Design Software At 03:38 AM 7/15/2011, you wrote: >Another plug for MS Visio. Attached is a draft 'start circuit' I drew for >myself a few months back. Outputing to PDF resized some of the lines, but >Visio itself is great. I would encourage anyone who is willing to spend the $time$ to become competent in any sort of illustration software also take the time to become fluent in the language of speaking and illustrating "electronese". If you look at any drawings produced in the 'Connection or on aeroelectric.com, the diagrams speak to specific connections of wires to terminals of devices, to wire sizes, symbology to suggest type of terminals used, internal functions of devices such as switches, relays, contactors, motors, etc. The whole story on one page. VERY FEW professional illustrators of consumer product wiring diagrams bother to offer such detail in their work-product. Even folks who should know better. I can't tell you how many no-value hours I spent trying to find a truly descriptive schematic of how the fuel selector valve and gage system worked in my '87 GMC truck. All the schematics in 'official' published documents showed "boxes" with colored wires routing between them and no information what so ever as to what goes on inside the boxes. Having finally discovered what I needed to know, it made perfect sense and I can now draw the schematic from memory, not as an activity to mimic somebody else's drawings but as a fundamental understanding of how the system works. I'll suggest there are two aspects of creating really useful drawings. The choice of illustration software obviously drives the general appearance of the finished drawings. But organization and completeness is entirely up to the skills, willingness and experience of the illustrator. Symbols for lucid production of schematics and diagrams are the language of the discipline. Learn the symbols too and use what ever illustrative tools to present those symbols in a manner that makes understanding 'jump off the page' into the mind of the competent observer. These same drawings will provide a solid foundation for sharing understanding for the not-so- competent observer with a willingness and desire to learn. Just a few more little lines in the published schematics for my truck's fuel system would have completed the story and saved a lot of wasted time. COMPLETE schematics are the tools of both teaching how something works but the tools of understanding for how to fix the thing that doesn't work at some later time. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: It's nice when the center holds . . .
Date: Jul 17, 2011
Funny thing is the first time I heard the term, "Dead stick landing", I knew exactly what it meant. Noel From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of b d Sent: July 15, 2011 6:57 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: It's nice when the center holds . . . The only thing I don't really understand is why you (native English speakers) call this situation a "Dead Stick" landing, when this is everything but a dead stick. On the contrary, this is a very "Alive stick" situation.. What is really dead is the power source! Excellent observation . . . . the question is, shall we go back and change all the references using the "dead stick" phrase from all the books references and logs or shall we allow you to get over it and accept it. One vs. zillions :-) As I recall in a my old conversations with the Wright Bothers it originally meant "you are close to being dead if you don't use the stick to save your ass". I remember asking that very same question to Orville and Wilbur while sitting around their potbellied stove as if it was yesterday. They reiterated that "dead" had nothing to do with the engine but more about the pilot. So if you were them, what phrase would you like to use if we were to correct the whole 100 plus years of aviation history and all log books to reflect your choice of phrases? "Alive stick"? This reminds me of the prison story where the new guy comes in and hears "257" and everyone laughs, then "522" and everyone laughs. He questions what is going on and his cell mate says, "we have told these jokes so many times we just numbered them to save time". The new guy says "let me try one . . . 257!" but nobody laughed . . . then "522" and once again nobody laughed . . . he asked his cell mate "what gives?" The cell mate said, "some people can tell a joke and some can't!" You can stick with "Alive stick" and see how it works for you however removing the word "dead" from your thoughts may not be as healthy at that particular time. . . please let us know how it works for you. You could just yell out "dead" and forget the stick if that confuses you. That way the "dead" will give you some indication of what happens if you don't move the stick in the proper, timely sequence. Don't take it personal, I'm just having fun with you . . . Where are you from? Bruce On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:55 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote: Nice landing, and a very good demonstration of excellent pilot skills! The only thing I don't really understand is why you (native English speakers) call this situation a "Dead Stick" landing, when this is everything but a dead stick. On the contrary, this is a very "Alive stick" situation.. What is really dead is the power source! Carlos Trigo > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III > Sent: sexta-feira, 15 de Julho de 2011 18:40 > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: It's nice when the center holds . . . > > > > See: > > http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/SUPERGT/3384/ > > > Bob . . . > //// > (o o) ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Keith Ward <keithward1(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: EGT Readings Change when Transmitting
Date: Jul 17, 2011
Craig, I had an issue with my EFIS that sounds similar to yours. When I keyed the mike, most of my readouts (vsi, heading, etc.) moved. I changed the BNC connectors and the problem was solved. I think I did a poor job installing the original connectors. Not sure if this would fix your issue, but it may be worth a try. Keith On Jul 17, 2011, at 7:58 AM, "ChangDriver" wrote: > > Bob: > > I have noticed an odd thing happening on my digital EGT display. When I key the microphone to transmit on the Garmin SL-30, the graphical EGT display bars are driven down to zero. I short key of the mic and they go down a little....hold it keyed and they go to zero. > > Any suggestions on what to look for/do? > > Craig > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=346751#346751 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Over Voltage Protection for Internal Regulated Alternators
From: "Bubblehead" <jdalmansr(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 17, 2011
If my IR alternator ever goes belly up I'll move to an externally regulated one, but for now it is what it is. I have a 40A internally regulated alternator. I am rewiring my RV-8 to Z-11 standard and want to include OV protection. I have read up on the forums and on AeroElectric Connection. I just want to confirm the latest thinking on OV protection. 1) use a Cb-OV-14 crowbar protection circuit on the Master switch and 2) a S701-1 B-lead contactor I am also installing a 60 amp ANL in the B-lead between the alternator and the starter solenoid. Do I understand the instructions correctly? Thanks. -------- John Keller, TX RV-8 N247TD Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=346794#346794 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Zimmer" <stickandrudder1(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Electrical System Drawing
Date: Jul 17, 2011
Excellent article on Avionics Master Switches. Thanks for pointing it out. Also for the advice to plan a system around what will happen if/when a given component fails. I think I've done that, but it's hard to argue with your point about 99.9% of the unknowns being worked out over the past 20 years. It was this analysis that had me adding the second battery and moving the backup alternator to the E-Bus. It's manufacturer statements like the one below that breeds uncertainty. I did look up the installation manual on the GTX 327 and it does conform to DO-160. Avionics Bus is history. I have the loads for all my equipment, and know it will be well under 30A in normal operation. I certainly don't need 30A for the E-Bus. It's just the flavor that PP said they were coming out with. The 20A B&C would be more than adequate, but I'm attracted to the PP due to its expected lower cost (cost to be about $600, ~$400 less that SD-20 and regulator) and its relative simplicity (i.e. internally regulated). I probably could live with an 8A mushroom, but I would like the autopilot to be on the E-Bus along with boost pump, EFIS, & GPS/COM and I think that may be stretching things a bit. I've spent a LOT (much more than I care to admit) of time deciphering z-13. I think I understand the logic behind it, as well as the function of each component pretty well. That doesn't mean I understand the failure modes of individual electronic components, because I don't (i.e. E-Bus Diode, Battery Failure modes, etc.) The point you made in your book, and again in your previous Email regarding design changes, wasn't lost on me. My objective in my drawing (the Avionics bus notwithstanding) was to stay true to design objective of z-13, insure battery field current to the backup alternator (you stated that most alternators don't run real well without a battery) with the small battery, and design something I understood. Thanks for your help. Paul _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011 2:55 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electrical System Drawing At 09:46 PM 7/16/2011, you wrote: Attached is a draft electrical schematic based primarily on Bob Nuckolls' Z-13 electrical system drawing. Note that I plan on using an internally regulated Plane Power 30A backup alternator, which is supposed to be out by Oshkosh. Do you really NEED that much back-up power? What are the load analysis numbers for the minimum loads to get you to airport of intended destination while saving the battery for approach to landing? Another thing I=12ve though of is although I haven=12t done a load analysis yet, but I=12m pretty sure with a 30A backup alternator, I could combine the Avionics and E-Bus busses (the only things that would be added to the E-BUS would be Com2, Transponder and audio panel. Loan analysis needs to be first . . . before you size alternators. Also, keep in mind that intermittent loads like landing lights, transmit current are not continuous running loads. Can you get your ENDURANCE loads down to 8A or less? If you do a search of unhappy events in the cockpit leading to bent airplanes and/or bleeding people, the percentage of total incidents involving electrical system failures is exceedingly small. A majority of those instances could have been mitigated by better pilot understanding and good preventative maintenance. It's comforting to add redundancy on top of band-aid on top of worry issue . . . but all of these have costs of ownership. I passed a big pile of first-aid kits in the pharmacy at Walmart last week. I think they were $5. If Wallyworld sells them, they must move out the door in significant numbers. I've been driving for over 50 years, owned dozens of cars and probably had at least a half-dozen first-aid kits of one form or another. I can recall no single instance of ever using the contents of such kits . . . nor finding myself in a position of wishing I had one. You are far more likely to enjoy a high order of reliability by careful study of what's need should any single device fail . . . and developing a plan-B for that failure. The goal is not to keep everything lit up all the time, only those things needed for getting to airport of intended destination so that the battery alone will get you on the ground with lights a blazing both inside and outside the cockpit. Every serious accident we've studied here on the list that grew of out electrical systems issues had root cause in poor craftsmanship and/or poor judgement and lack of understanding of the system. Adding more hardware will generally not do much to offset those human frailties. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Zimmer" <stickandrudder1(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Drawing Z-13/20
Date: Jul 17, 2011
Bob, just curious. What was the reason drawing Z-13/20 was omitted from revision 12 of AEC? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 17, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: multiple shield ground wires
At 12:38 PM 7/17/2011, you wrote: > >Cool! It's been a while since I read over all the neat tricks and tips. > >Another simple question... > >Audio wire drawings show shield ground at intercomm (real ground), >but open circle at the end-point (i.e. shield pulled back and >covered with heat shrink). This one I get. > >Other schematics (ADS600B) show shield grounds at both ends of the >wire. Really? It would seem unwise to physically ground both sides, >so maybe I'm not understanding the intent. Follow the instructions. Shields can be shield-only, attach one end; or shield+purposful conductor, attach both ends as prescribed. Check out extensive discussions on shields on aeroelectric.com and in the archives of this forum. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 17, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Over Voltage Protection for Internal Regulated
Alternators At 03:17 PM 7/17/2011, you wrote: > >If my IR alternator ever goes belly up I'll move to an externally >regulated one, but for now it is what it is. > >I have a 40A internally regulated alternator. I am rewiring my RV-8 >to Z-11 standard and want to include OV protection. I have read up >on the forums and on AeroElectric Connection. I just want to >confirm the latest thinking on OV protection. > >1) use a Cb-OV-14 crowbar protection circuit on the Master switch > >and > >2) a S701-1 B-lead contactor That works. Alternatively, you can go inside the alternator and modify it in the same manner that Plane-Power does so that you have EXTERNAL control of the field supply conductor while retaining use of the internal regulator. >I am also installing a 60 amp ANL in the B-lead between the >alternator and the starter solenoid. This device has nothing to do with ov protection . . . only protection of the b-lead wire in case of shorts in the diode array . . . a very rare event. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Over Voltage Protection for Internal Regulated
Alternators
From: "Bubblehead" <jdalmansr(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 18, 2011
I agree and understand the ANL has nothing to do with OV protection. Where would I find information on going "inside the alternator and modify it in the same manner that Plane-Power does so that you have EXTERNAL control of the field supply conductor while retaining use of the internal regulator. " -------- John Keller, TX RV-8 N247TD Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=346876#346876 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stuart Hutchison" <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au>
Subject: TXDR & Nav/Com light sensors
Date: Jul 18, 2011
G'day Bob, We have a KT76C transponder, a KX-165 and a KX155 radio in our Club Piper Archer - all with gas discharge displays. At night they're all unreadable, but display just fine in daylight or if a torch is aimed at the light sensor (I assume an SPD like a camera light sensor). Before we head out to potentially get ripped off buying new circuit boards or refurbished units etc, do you know if this is a common problem and should it be a relatively easy fix? Cheers, Stu ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Flap control using (a) relay(s)
From: "pmnewlon" <philn(at)toosan.com>
Date: Jul 18, 2011
I have two rows of SPST switches on the lower left of my instrument panel. I failed to allow enough room for the DPDT flap switch and now either have to relocate it or figure out some way to operate the flaps with the SPST (ON)OFF(ON) switch I purchased for the job. I've looked at Newark Elec for some kind of relay to do the job, but I can only think of how to do it using two SPST relays such as the B/C 704-1 - one for 'UP' the other for 'DOWN'. I would appreciate any thoughts on how to gracefully recover from my design error. Thanks! Phil Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=346914#346914 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Flap control using (a) relay(s)
From: Larry Mac Donald <lm4(at)juno.com>
Date: Jul 18, 2011
Phil, You could do that job with what is called a "Latching relay" Larry On Jul 18, 2011, at 4:02 PM, pmnewlon wrote: > > I have two rows of SPST switches on the lower left of my instrument panel. I failed to allow enough room for the DPDT flap switch and now either have to relocate it or figure out some way to operate the flaps with the SPST (ON)OFF(ON) switch I purchased for the job. I've looked at Newark Elec for some kind of relay to do the job, but I can only think of how to do it using two SPST relays such as the B/C 704-1 - one for 'UP' the other for 'DOWN'. I would appreciate any thoughts on how to gracefully recover from my design error. > > Thanks! > > Phil > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=346914#346914 > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ Penny Stock Jumping 3000% Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4e249b905b34d8a5c4st06vuc ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Flap control using (a) relay(s)
Date: Jul 18, 2011
You could add a flap controller such as what Vans sells. Has few nice features. Bevan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of pmnewlon Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 1:03 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Flap control using (a) relay(s) I have two rows of SPST switches on the lower left of my instrument panel. I failed to allow enough room for the DPDT flap switch and now either have to relocate it or figure out some way to operate the flaps with the SPST (ON)OFF(ON) switch I purchased for the job. I've looked at Newark Elec for some kind of relay to do the job, but I can only think of how to do it using two SPST relays such as the B/C 704-1 - one for 'UP' the other for 'DOWN'. I would appreciate any thoughts on how to gracefully recover from my design error. Thanks! Phil Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=346914#346914 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Flap control using (a) relay(s)
Date: Jul 18, 2011
I have two rows of SPST switches on the lower left of my instrument panel. I failed to allow enough room for the DPDT flap switch and now either have to relocate it or figure out some way to operate the flaps with the SPST (ON)OFF(ON) switch I purchased for the job. I've looked at Newark Elec for some kind of relay to do the job, but I can only think of how to do it using two SPST relays such as the B/C 704-1 - one for 'UP' the other for 'DOWN'. I would appreciate any thoughts on how to gracefully recover from my design error. Thanks! Phil A simple way is to use two dpst automotive relays, one wired for flaps up and the other for flaps down, then simply control them with your installed spdt switch. Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Flap control using (a) relay(s)
From: "pmnewlon" <philn(at)toosan.com>
Date: Jul 18, 2011
Hmmmm, from what I read of the description of one such relay on the newark site, a latching relay stays in the last position until power is applied in the other direction. I would need a '3 position' relay - up, no power, down. "Magnetic Latching relays require one pulse of coil power to move their contacts in one direction, and another, redirected pulse to move them back. Repeated pulses from the same input have no effect. Magnetic Latching relays are useful in applications where interrupted power should not be able to transition the contacts." Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=346927#346927 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 18, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Flap control using (a) relay(s)
At 03:02 PM 7/18/2011, you wrote: > >I have two rows of SPST switches on the lower left of my instrument >panel. I failed to allow enough room for the DPDT flap switch and >now either have to relocate it or figure out some way to operate the >flaps with the SPST (ON)OFF(ON) switch I purchased for the >job. I've looked at Newark Elec for some kind of relay to do the >job, but I can only think of how to do it using two SPST relays such >as the B/C 704-1 - one for 'UP' the other for 'DOWN'. I would >appreciate any thoughts on how to gracefully recover from my design error. Using the pair of relays as shown in http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Flaps/Flaps_3.pdf is about a graceful as it gets. With both relays de-energized, their relaxed contacts put a dead short on the motor bringing it to a fast halt. The relays are inexpensive . . . Emacs! This model comes with it's own mounting bracket. http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=255-2729-ND Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 18, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Over Voltage Protection for Internal Regulated
Alternators At 07:23 AM 7/18/2011, you wrote: > >I agree and understand the ANL has nothing to do with OV protection. > >Where would I find information on going "inside the alternator and >modify it in the same manner that Plane-Power does so that you have >EXTERNAL control of the field supply conductor while retaining use >of the internal regulator. " Hmmmm . . . there was a set of instructions unique to a particular series of ND alternators that spoke to removing the built-in regulator and converting it to external (a-la B&C L-series). But I've not seen anything that shows how to leave it in. It's something an alternator repair shop might be able to help you with. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 18, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: TXDR & Nav/Com light sensors
At 07:47 AM 7/18/2011, you wrote: >G'day Bob, > >We have a KT76C transponder, a KX-165 and a KX155 radio in our Club >Piper Archer - all with gas discharge displays. > >At night they're all unreadable, but display just fine in daylight >or if a torch is aimed at the light sensor (I assume an SPD like a >camera light sensor). > >Before we head out to potentially get ripped off buying new circuit >boards or refurbished units etc, do you know if this is a common >problem and should it be a relatively easy fix? > I'm sorry, I've not had any experience or insight from others as to how you might deal with this issue. Suggest you post it to the list. Somebody might have more knowledge than I. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Zimmer" <stickandrudder1(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Drawing Z-13/20
Date: Jul 18, 2011
Forget my question (if you haven't done so already) regarding why Z-13/20 went away with Revision 12 of AEC. I found my answer. I'm getting this Matronics Email-Serve thing figured out (i.e. search - Duh!). You must have the patience of Job, being asked the same question over and over. That said, I did an analysis of Z-12, and it is quite similar to Z-13/20 with a few notable exceptions. I have a couple of questions and observations regarding Z-12. The field for both alternators is fed from the main bus. If the Aux alternator field was fed from the E-Bus, it would provide battery current should the Battery Contactor Fail (however unlikely), with no apparent downside to the overall design, other than the E-Bus alternate feed would need to be switched on. Am I reading this right, or is there more to it? This brings up a more basic question. What is the intended normal operating position of the E-Bus Alternate Feed Switch? It would seem that it could be operated in the "On" position (enabled to provide battery power "when" the battery contactor fails) or Off position (requiring it to be turned on "when" the contactor fails). The Z-12 design powers both the main and E-Bus from both alternators. Does this assume the pilot will shed load (if necessary) from the main bus necessary to stay below the output of the backup alternator in order to save the battery, until those devices are required for approach and landing? Bob, I'm sure you know that when we ask these questions, it's because (hopefully) we are thinking, which is a good thing. I'm sure you're beyond taking challenges/questioning of your designs personally. I for one really appreciate you taking the time to answer questions and being here to educate. Thanks Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "mike" <mskoehn(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Load Analysis Spread Sheet
Date: Jul 19, 2011
Kind of a beginner's question here. I am sure someone out there has a good example of a Load Analysis, or perhaps something in visual basic, accounting for varying power loads in their design? I am looking for a coherent graphic of an electrical architecture that might be modifiable towards the design I have in mind. Failing that does anyone have a laundry list of power consumptions of representative airframe equipment found in light aircraft I could use as a starting point? Just trying to save some re-invent the wheel time. Thanks in advance, ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Load Analysis Spread Sheet
Date: Jul 19, 2011
Check this one out courtesy of Vertical Power. http://www.verticalpower.com/docs/Device_Amps.pdf Bevan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of mike Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 12:21 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Load Analysis Spread Sheet Kind of a beginner's question here. I am sure someone out there has a good example of a Load Analysis, or perhaps something in visual basic, accounting for varying power loads in their design? I am looking for a coherent graphic of an electrical architecture that might be modifiable towards the design I have in mind. Failing that does anyone have a laundry list of power consumptions of representative airframe equipment found in light aircraft I could use as a starting point? Just trying to save some re-invent the wheel time. Thanks in advance, ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 19, 2011
Subject: Re: Load Analysis Spread Sheet
From: James Kilford <james(at)etravel.org>
Mike, I found a useful exercise was to create a spreadsheet with columns for various stages of flight (e.g. startup, taxi, climbout, cruise, descent, etc.) and rows for the various items of equipment. Some basic formulas will give you a precise understanding of the loads at different points, along with a theoretical maximum. You can further break this down so that the rows are grouped together in "busses", e.g. main bus, endurance bus, to then determine other answers, e.g. how long might your battery last if you're on your endurance bus without an alternator. I've a spreadsheet with all this on if you want it. HTH James On 19 July 2011 08:20, mike wrote: > ** > Kind of a beginner's question here. I am sure someone out there has a good > example of a Load Analysis, or perhaps something in visual basic, accounting > for varying power loads in their design? I am looking for a coherent graphic > of an electrical architecture that might be modifiable towards the design I > have in mind. Failing that does anyone have a laundry list of power > consumptions of representative airframe equipment found in light aircraft I > could use as a starting point? Just trying to save some re-invent the wheel > time. > > Thanks in advance, > > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: TXDR & Nav/Com light sensors
From: "racerjerry" <gki(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Date: Jul 19, 2011
I had the same symptoms. A flashlight shined directly on the photocell restored everything to normal brightness. After many years, the photocell material apparently oxidizes and disappears with age. If you have a smattering of electronics knowledge and experience with a soldering iron, the photocell (V301) on the KT-76A is not too difficult to replace as it is located off the main board on a separate switch board assy. behind the front panel. GOOGLE part no. 134-05005-0002. Mine cost me about $15 + shipping in 2006. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347022#347022 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: multiple shield ground wires
From: "jayb" <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jul 19, 2011
I contacted the vendor and they stated that the diagram that showed shield grounds on both ends was a typo. One end only. Glad I asked the question though as there's always more to learn! Cheers, Jay "Follow the instructions. Shields can be shield-only, attach one end; or shield+purposful conductor, attach both ends as prescribed." Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347043#347043 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 19, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Drawing Z-13/20
At 10:39 PM 7/18/2011, you wrote: >Forget my question (if you haven=92t done so >already) regarding why Z-13/20 went away with >Revision 12 of AEC. I found my answer. I=92m >getting this Matronics Email-Serve thing figured >out (i.e. search ' Duh!). You must have the >patience of Job, being asked the same question over and over. It happens in every classroom semester after semester . . . > >That said, I did an analysis of Z-12, and it is >quite similar to Z-13/20 with a few notable >exceptions. I have a couple of questions and observations regarding Z-12. > >The field for both alternators is fed from the >main bus. If the Aux alternator field was fed >from the E-Bus, it would provide battery current >should the Battery Contactor Fail (however >unlikely), with no apparent downside to the >overall design, other than the E-Bus alternate >feed would need to be switched on. Am I reading >this right, or is there more to it? This brings up a more basic question. If the battery contactor fails -AND- you stall the alternator -AND- assuming it won't come up self-excited only -THEN- are you limited to what runs off the e-bus from energy contained in a well-maintained battery. I'm told that belt driven alternators running at 10 KRPM will, for the most part, come up self excited. > >What is the intended normal operating position >of the E-Bus Alternate Feed Switch? It would >seem that it could be operated in the =93On=94 >position (enabled to provide battery power >=93when=94 the battery contactor fails) or Off >position (requiring it to be turned on =93when=94 the contactor fails). The original idea was to close the e-bus alternate feed during pre-flight to test the path (an perhaps get clearance delivery and ATIS). Then leave it off for remainder of flight. > >The Z-12 design powers both the main and E-Bus >from both alternators. Does this assume the >pilot will shed load (if necessary) from the >main bus necessary to stay below the output of >the backup alternator in order to save the >battery, until those devices are required for approach and landing? Correct. Z-12 was included in the Z-figures not so much because it was recommended for new design. It's an example of how the SD-20 can be added to and existing Z-11 style system (typical of most TC aircraft). Z-12 is installed in hundreds of TC aircraft as a factory options or aftermarket kit. However, Z-12 is a perfectly practical way to integrate the SD-20 into a single battery, two alternator system whether by system upgrade or new construction. MUCH preferred over the abortive Z-13/20. If one is inclined to dual batteries, then Z-14 is a seamless way to get the two alternators wired up. > >Bob, I=92m sure you know that when we ask these >questions, it=92s because (hopefully) we are thinking, which is a good thing. Absolutely! > I=92m sure you=92re beyond taking > challenges/questioning of your designs > personally. I for one really appreciate you > taking the time to answer questions and being here to educate. A recipe for success built from the minimum numbers of simple-ideas defends itself. If a recipe has errors of fact in logic or performance, it needs to be fixed . . . The teacher's worst nightmare is to discover a long history of promoting a bad idea for lack of study or errors in perception. Propagandists don't concern themselves with such things. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 19, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Load Analysis Spread Sheet
At 02:20 AM 7/19/2011, you wrote: >Kind of a beginner's question here. I am sure someone out there has >a good example of a Load Analysis, or perhaps something in visual >basic, accounting for varying power loads in their design? I am >looking for a coherent graphic of an electrical architecture that >might be modifiable towards the design I have in mind. Failing that >does anyone have a laundry list of power consumptions of >representative airframe equipment found in light aircraft I could >use as a starting point? Just trying to save some re-invent the wheel time. Check out the downloads at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Load_Analysis/ If you're handy with Excel and really want a self-calculating spread sheet, there are a couple of examples. Others here on the List no doubt have others to share. If you're doing a study on a Beechjet, then a spread-sheet is the only way to go. I suspect that a simple pencil/paper/calculator apporach is the fastest path to understanging by filling our a form like http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Load_Analysis/Blank_Form.pdf This is an adaptation of the forms we were using on TC aircraft 60 years ago. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 19, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: multiple shield ground wires
At 10:39 AM 7/19/2011, you wrote: > >I contacted the vendor and they stated that the diagram that showed >shield grounds on both ends was a typo. One end only. Glad I asked >the question though as there's always more to learn! Any day you go to bed knowing something you did not know that morning is a GOOD day. Any day you can tap the sum of your knowledge and experience to make the life of somebody else easier, it's a GREAT day. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vern Little" <sprocket@vx-aviation.com>
Subject: Re: Load Analysis Spread Sheet
Date: Jul 19, 2011
Check www.verticalpower.com for their load planning spreadsheets. -Vern From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 9:14 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Load Analysis Spread Sheet At 02:20 AM 7/19/2011, you wrote: Kind of a beginner's question here. I am sure someone out there has a good example of a Load Analysis, or perhaps something in visual basic, accounting for varying power loads in their design? I am looking for a coherent graphic of an electrical architecture that might be modifiable towards the design I have in mind. Failing that does anyone have a laundry list of power consumptions of representative airframe equipment found in light aircraft I could use as a starting point? Just trying to save some re-invent the wheel time. Check out the downloads at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Load_Analysis/ If you're handy with Excel and really want a self-calculating spread sheet, there are a couple of examples. Others here on the List no doubt have others to share. If you're doing a study on a Beechjet, then a spread-sheet is the only way to go. I suspect that a simple pencil/paper/calculator apporach is the fastest path to understanging by filling our a form like http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Load_Analysis/Blank_Form.pdf This is an adaptation of the forms we were using on TC aircraft 60 years ago. Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 19, 2011
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Load Analysis Spread Sheet
You are going thru the same process as all of us have. Look at everything you can find, steal as much as can and along the way you'll get you're head wrapped around it. My worksheet with load analysis is attached. I assume you are already familiar with Bob's Z-designs (a collection of well vetted electrical architectures for our machines). Starting (and staying) there is the way to avoid re-inventing any wheels. My version of Bob's Z-14 is also attached. On 7/19/2011 3:20 AM, mike wrote: > Kind of a beginner's question here. I am sure someone out there has a > good example of a Load Analysis, or perhaps something in visual basic, > accounting for varying power loads in their design? I am looking for a > coherent graphic of an electrical architecture that might be > modifiable towards the design I have in mind. Failing that does anyone > have a laundry list of power consumptions of representative airframe > equipment found in light aircraft I could use as a starting point? > Just trying to save some re-invent the wheel time. > Thanks in advance, > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 19, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Load Analysis Spread Sheet
At 02:32 PM 7/19/2011, you wrote: >You are going thru the same process as all of us have. Look at >everything you can find, steal as much as can and along the way >you'll get you're head wrapped around it. Agreed. Many builders start with a strong urge to "keep everything running" in spite of inevitable failures of all kinds. By inevitable failure I mean no piece of hardware on your airplane has an infinite service life, nor are any components immune to the effects of error in craftsmanship or degraded performance due to misunderstanding or neglect. The short version of this idea is "Things Break". Suggest you review the article on Failure Modes Effects analysis at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Failure%20Modes%20Effects%20Analysis.pdf also chapter 17 in the 'Connection Then figure out what you plan to do personally to deal with the failure of any device or system in the airplane. It's easy to spend hours, pounds and dollars designing an electrical system that will keep every device in the airplane POWERED while ignoring the non-zero probability that that coveted system is not immune from FAILURE. I've mentioned many times here on this List that my personal approach to flying airplanes (always rental machines) is to be prepared to aviate and navigate and navigate to airport of intended destination in what I call "The J-3 Mode". Toward that end my flight bag has always included . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Vacination_for_Dark_Panel_Syndrom.pdf My goals for having confidence to operate my airplane- of-the-day is predicated on the idea that at best I'll get there as long as the engine runs and the flight controls stay hooked up. At worst, I'll get an adventure on some airport I never before intended to visit. For anyone setting out to configure their electrical system, the first question is, "Can I operate this airplane in the vast majority of anticipated missions with the master switches OFF?" If the answer to that is "yes", then I'll suggest that your extra-ordinary needs for electrical energy are small to zero. If "no", then what's the practical solution to making sure the MINIMAL compliment of additional hardware is powered up for longer than you have fuel to keep the engine running? Start with solving that problem first. What is your MINIMALIST plan and skill set for comfortable termination of flight and figure the energy budget for delivering to that plan? If any of those equipment items are necessary for keeping the engine running they should be powered from a battery bus. In other words, if you've got smoke in the cockpit, you should be able to turn the master switch OFF and STILL continue to airport of intended destination. After conducting this exercise, then figure out how many more electro-whizzies you'd like to have running, not for necessity but for convenience. Any airplane can be successfully operated to a comfortable arrival with ZERO engine instrumentation . . . if you want to take the time to learn how to do it. An airplane can be successfully navigated with ZERO panel mounted nav-aids. Communication is a driving consideration only during the approach to landing phase and this can be done with a hand-held. After figuring out how you will achieve this level of confidence and competence with the manner in which you intend to use your airplane, then decide what your dollar, weight and volume budget is for adding more "stuff". This exercise goes to two important points. Only a tiny fraction of unhappy days in the cockpit have roots in electrical system failures. The vast majority of unhappy days in the cockpit have roots in poor piloting skills usually combined with poor decision making processes in dealing with what should be a no-big deal failure. If things didn't break on airplanes, FBO's would be out of business. Only YOU can make sure the majority if not all of your failures are a maintenance event as opposed to an emergency arising from lack of skill/planning. After this thought exercise you are now properly informed to carry out a load analysis that will drive architecture, weight, system complexity, and cost of ownership. The short review for all the above is, "Please disabuse yourself of the notion that backups to backups is any sort of replacement for understanding your machine, it's limitations and your own limitations. Tony Levier in a '60 model C-172 is a lot less likely to suffer a bad day in the cockpit than most of today's pilots buying a Malibu or A-36 with all the goodies. Some of my most enjoyable cross countries were conducted in the J-3 mode. Go down low, get out the maps, punch up a destination on the $100 hand held GPS and shut all the rest of that stuff off. If you can do it for fun, you can do it when conditions demand it. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 20, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Batteries: To fly . . . or not to fly . . . that IS
the question. At 09:01 AM 7/20/2011, you wrote: > >I'm forced to reflect on it all after driving my Maule into RDU >yesterday, having lunch, and then requiring a 'jump' to get out! >What happened? I've been flying around with a marginal battery. It >was marginal at my annual a few weeks ago but it was not noticed. Toward mitigating that condition, consider acquiring one of these critters . . . Emacs! http://tinyurl.com/3gnnwrt This is a carbon-pile load tester for large batteries. While not a substitute for a real capacity test, the load tester will give you a bench-mark for the battery's ability to get the engine started. A carbon-pile is a special kind of high current, adjustable resistor. http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery_Testers/HF91128_0.jpg The big-momma clips are hooked to the battery termnials, you punch the button on the 15 second timer and then quickly crank the knob clockwise until the voltmeter drops to the level appropriate to the battery's temperature. http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery_Testers/HF91129_4.jpg Do the best you can to hold the voltage at that level. When the 15 second timer beeps, observe the current reading and quickly back off the load. That carbon pile is only good for a few seconds at those power levels and will probably "stink". Generally speaking, if the ammeter shows less than 200 amps after 15 seconds, its time to replace the critter. Clipped right across the battery terminals with the engine running at an RPM where the alternator is expected to provide full output, you can put the load tester across the battery and crank the current up until the bus voltage drops to 13.0 volts (battery isn't delivering or taking on energy). The reading on the meter PLUS any loads in the airplane you can't turn off is the output current of your alternator. This is a lot of testing bang for the buck. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 20, 2011
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Batteries: To fly . . . or not to fly . . . that
IS the question. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Load Analysis Spread Sheet
From: "Mike Koehn" <mskoehn(at)comcast.net>
Date: Jul 21, 2011
What fun. Thanks to everyone who replied to this first post, especially Bob for his insight on how I aught to be thinking about the big picture. Z-13/8 seems like the right starting point. Great book. Found more spread sheet info in the archives as well so I am looking forward to a first pass at the (non?) problem. With an all electric airplane in mind and integral battery backups as part of the equipment design (skyView and D-10) there appears to be plenty of power redundancy for the airplane's meager mission and then some, at least on the back of the envelope. Fly safe, Mike -------- "Testing is what we do when we don't know what we are doing" Dr. Wernher von Braun Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347326#347326 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 21, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Load Analysis Spread Sheet
At 12:25 PM 7/21/2011, you wrote: > > . . . there appears to be plenty of power redundancy for the > airplane's meager mission and then some, at least on the back of the envelope. Good words to hear! Keep us in the loop so we can help you add your project to the fleet of the most efficient and affordable airplanes to have ever flown. You might just do a 'back of the envelope' dump to the List of all the electrical loads you presently anticipate in no particular order of importance. Just everything that spins, lights up, gets warm or makes noises . . . and blows fuses when having a bad day . . . Then let's 'shuffle the deck' here on the List . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Airframe ground connection
From: "Louie928" <louieo(at)gorge.net>
Date: Jul 21, 2011
I'm building a Zenith 601XL. The airframe is constructed of mostly 0.025" 6061. The battery will likely be mounted behind the seat and the ground connection will be made to the nearby rear spar carry through which is 0.032" 6061 riveted to the floor and side skins. The firewall is 26 ga., 0.018", galvanized steel. I've seen the battery ground connection #4 AWG terminal bolted directly to the 0.032" sheet, and the engine connected to the firewall by a short #4 or braided copper. It seems to me that the current density at either of these connections is going to be quite high during engine start. Is it recommended to have a thicker metal section under the terminal at these connections? Something like 1/8" aluminum 2" or 3" in diameter riveted with, say 8 #4 rivets, to the underlying thin aluminum or galvanized steel to distribute the current? Is a couple of thick washers on each side of the sheet metal under the bolted through terminals enough? Or, run a +12V #4, and a ground #4, to the starter and engine thereby bypassing the airframe from the large starter current. The wire length from battery to engine is about 7 feet. -------- Louis W. Ott 601XL beginner Quick Build Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347343#347343 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Airframe ground connection
> >Or, run a +12V #4, and a ground #4, to the starter and engine >thereby bypassing the airframe from the large starter current. The >wire length from battery to engine is about 7 feet. That's the 'clean' way to do it. #4 welding cable for battery wires. Take battery (-) to firewall feed through bolt, battery (+) through battery contactor and then firewall to starter contactor. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Airframe ground connection
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Jul 22, 2011
> Something like 1/8" aluminum 2" or 3" in diameter riveted with, say 8 #4 rivets, to the underlying thin aluminum or galvanized steel to distribute the current? Rivets do not make very good electrical connections unless there are many of them in parallel (electrically). Certain brands of switches are prone to fail because they use rivets to carry the current. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347383#347383 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Airframe ground connection
Date: Jul 22, 2011
From: "George, Neal Capt 505 TRS/DOJ" <Neal.George(at)hurlburt.af.mil>
The switches that we've seen fail at riveted joints didn't fail because of the rivets, per se. They failed because rivets were used to join grossly dissimilar materials - Bakelite/plastic sandwiched between metal tabs - AND the leads were not supported adequately. In service, movement of the wire leads relative to the switch body flexed the terminal tabs, eventually loosening the riveted joint. As the riveted joint works and loosens, the gas-tight electrical connection is compromised. The less-than-ideal electrical connection introduces electrical resistance which manifests as heat. The heat further damages the loose rivet/plastic/copper interface thru corrosion and differential thermal expansion rates, and a destructive cycle of rising resistance, higher heat and accelerated damage results until the Bakelite cooks and crumbles or the copper bits inside anneal and deform to the point that the actuator can't move the rocker far enough to make/break the connection. Neal > Rivets do not make very good electrical connections unless there are many of them in parallel (electrically). Certain brands of switches are prone to fail because they use rivets to carry the current. Joe Gores >> Something like 1/8" aluminum 2" or 3" in diameter riveted with, say 8 #4 rivets, to the underlying thin aluminum or galvanized steel to distribute the current? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Airframe ground connection
At 10:19 AM 7/22/2011, you wrote: TRS/DOJ" The switches that we've seen fail at riveted joints didn't fail because of the rivets, per se. They failed because rivets were used to join grossly dissimilar materials - Bakelite/plastic sandwiched between metal tabs - AND the leads were not supported adequately. In service, movement of the wire leads relative to the switch body flexed the terminal tabs, eventually loosening the riveted joint. As the riveted joint works and loosens, the gas-tight electrical connection is compromised. The less-than-ideal electrical connection introduces electrical resistance which manifests as heat. The heat further damages the loose rivet/plastic/copper interface thru corrosion and differential thermal expansion rates, and a destructive cycle of rising resistance, higher heat and accelerated damage results until the Bakelite cooks and crumbles or the copper bits inside anneal and deform to the point that the actuator can't move the rocker far enough to make/break the connection. An excellent recap of some extensive discussion shared here on the List some time back. Emacs! Rivets have been used to assemble gazillions of switches for decades. The designers of such devices strive for rivets not to be the "weakest" link in the chain of stresses on service life. Let's look at the inner workings of a Carling toggle (common to tens of thousands of Cessnas and certainly thousands of OBAM aircraft). We observe TWO features in the current carrying path that are more vulnerable to wear-out or environmental failure. One is the contacts. Resistance across the contacts is a function of spring pressure and contact surface condition. Resistance across the pivot-saddle is also a function of spring force and surface condition . . . but at least it gets "scrubbed" each operating cycle. Contacts just get "hammered". Contacts also benefit from the cleansing effects of electrical arcing to burn away products of corrosion. When installed with some attention to stresses on riveted terminals, one can expect failure of the low-pressure, moving-components to precede failure of the rivets by perhaps an order of magnitude of service life. Rivets in the switches are used in tension and they join a stack of materials that includes a plastic. Rivets in sheet metal are used in sheer. Further, if properly drilled and set, they swell up in the hole to form a metal-to-metal, gas tight fit . . . not unlike the gas-tight fit of wires properly mashed in the barrel of a terminal. Riveted doublers to reduce sheet current density around a high-current ground to airframe is probably not a 'bad' idea . . . but if there are concerns for getting a good ground in a thin-metal assembly, perhaps going around it entirely with a bundle of copper "cat-hairs" is a 'better' idea. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Airframe ground connection
From: "Louie928" <louieo(at)gorge.net>
Date: Jul 22, 2011
Neal.George(at)hurlburt.a wrote: > The switches that we've seen fail at riveted joints didn't fail because > of the rivets, per se. They failed because rivets were used to join > grossly dissimilar materials - Bakelite/plastic sandwiched between metal > tabs - AND the leads were not supported adequately. In service, > movement of the wire leads relative to the switch body flexed the > terminal tabs, eventually loosening the riveted joint. As the riveted > joint works and loosens, the gas-tight electrical connection is > compromised. The less-than-ideal electrical connection introduces > electrical resistance which manifests as heat. The heat further damages > the loose rivet/plastic/copper interface thru corrosion and differential > thermal expansion rates, and a destructive cycle of rising resistance, > higher heat and accelerated damage results until the Bakelite cooks and > crumbles or the copper bits inside anneal and deform to the point that > the actuator can't move the rocker far enough to make/break the > connection. > > Neal > > > > Rivets do not make very good electrical connections unless there are > > many of them in parallel (electrically). Certain brands of switches are > > > > prone to fail because they use rivets to carry the current. > Joe Gores > > > > > Something like 1/8" aluminum 2" or 3" in diameter riveted with, say 8 > > #4 rivets, to the underlying thin aluminum or galvanized steel to > > > > distribute the current? You make a valid point regarding the riveted connectors on the switches. I've come across the exact problem you describe in my work. It can lead to intermittent problems before identification of the actual trouble spot. I bought all my switches from B&C and was dismayed to see they have the riveted connection to the push on spade connector. It takes little effort to move the connector under the rivet. These have apparently been used in a lot of airplanes over a long time so maybe no problems have surfaced. I'll need to be sure I have the wires well supported near the switch with no strain on the riveted connector. Yes, distribute the current over a wider contact area of the thin aluminum, or steel. A simple bolted connection to 0.032" aluminum or the 0.018" galvanized steel firewall has a ridiculously small cross sectional area for the current to pass through. If it was wire it would be a very small CMA, like a fuse link. True, it is a short distance and the voltage drop won't be a lot. Heat will be generated which can contribute to problems down the road. If the bolted connection can be made through a thicker piece of material of 2 or 3 square inches area, and that thicker piece electrically connected to the thinner piece, the current will be distributed out to a much larger area of the thin metal and the current density won't be so high. -------- Louis W. Ott 601XL beginner Quick Build Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347398#347398 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Lamar MC 10 with internally regulated alternator
From: "josnooze" <josnooze(at)bellsouth.net>
Date: Jul 22, 2011
Does anyone know of any problems using a Lamar MC 10 all-in-one electrical control box with a plane power 60 amp internally regulated alternator? The MC 10 has internal crowbar overvoltage and overcurrent protection. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347403#347403 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Airframe ground connection
It takes little effort to move the connector under the rivet. These have apparently been used in a lot of airplanes over a long time so maybe no problems have surfaced. I'll need to be sure I have the wires well supported near the switch with no strain on the riveted connector. Good practice . . . whether the terminals are riveted or not. Yes, distribute the current over a wider contact area of the thin aluminum, or steel. A simple bolted connection to 0.032" aluminum or the 0.018" galvanized steel firewall has a ridiculously small cross sectional area for the current to pass through. If you study the three sheets of Figure Z-15 found at http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/ You will see a directed effort to minimize the use of airframe for any ground return currents. If it was wire it would be a very small CMA, like a fuse link. True, it is a short distance and the voltage drop won't be a lot. Heat will be generated which can contribute to problems down the road. If the bolted connection can be made through a thicker piece of material of 2 or 3 square inches area, and that thicker piece electrically connected to the thinner piece, the current will be distributed out to a much larger area of the thin metal and the current density won't be so high. Assume a firewall ground feed-through stud is the central, single-point ground. Assume further that only a limited number of low-current remotely mounted accessories enjoy local airframe grounds, then current density and bonding issues go away. The firewall sheet carries a small percentage of the total system currents and never cranking current. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Airframe ground connection
From: "Louie928" <louieo(at)gorge.net>
Date: Jul 22, 2011
Thanks very much for helping clear this up. -------- Louis W. Ott 601XL beginner Quick Build Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347416#347416 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vincent Welch <welchvincent(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: l5t06e 1ipfv
Date: Jul 22, 2011
http://www.telegazeta.com/wp-content/plugins/img/eyog.html o3jgtyj9m=2C ixozyzgz5c. bua83i0f2l 1e694c6ehk1j 39g0sfdlllc. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 2011
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Re: l5t06e 1ipfv
Another one got through...don't click on it. Harley ----------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.telegazeta.com/wp-content/plugins/img/eyog.html > o3jgtyj9m, ixozyzgz5c. bua83i0f2l 1e694c6ehk1j 39g0sfdlllc. > * > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RGent1224(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 22, 2011
Subject: Re: l5t06e 1ipfv
YOU BETCHA In a message dated 7/22/2011 3:33:12 P.M. Central Daylight Time, harley(at)AgelessWings.com writes: Another one got through...don't click on it. Harley ____________________________________ _http://www.telegazeta.com/wp-content/plugins/img/eyog.html_ (http://www.telegazeta.com/wp-content/plugins/img/eyog.html) o3jgtyj9m, ixozyzgz5c. bua83i0f2l 1e694c6ehk1j 39g0sfdlllc. (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Vincent Welch <welchvincent(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: l5t06e 1ipfv
Date: Jul 22, 2011
This did not come from me. Something has attacked my hotmail account and i s sending to everyone on my contact list. Date: Fri=2C 22 Jul 2011 16:29:54 -0400 From: harley(at)agelesswings.com CC: welchvincent(at)hotmail.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: l5t06e 1ipfv Another one got through...don't click on it. Harley http://www.telegazeta.com/wp-content/plugins/img/eyog.html o3jgtyj9m=2C ixozyzgz5c. bua83i0f2l 1e694c6ehk1j 39g0sfdlllc. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 2011
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Re: l5t06e 1ipfv
I suspected that your email was probably just spoofed, just wanted to warn others. It's happened to me a couple of times, and if you just wait it out, it'll probably go away in a few days. If you're password still works on your account, then it's probably not hijacked...someone just "temporarily borrowed" your address by putting it in their own "From" line. If that's the case, your account is not in any danger. If you start getting a bunch of returned emails with "address ubnknown" on them, that's definitely the case...it'll go away eventually. Harley ----------------------------------------------------------------- On 7/22/2011 6:18 PM, Vincent Welch wrote: > This did not come from me. Something has attacked my hotmail > account and is sending to everyone on my contact list. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 16:29:54 -0400 > From: harley(at)agelesswings.com > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > CC: welchvincent(at)hotmail.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: l5t06e 1ipfv > > Another one got through...don't click on it. > > Harley > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > http://www.telegazeta.com/wp-content/plugins/img/eyog.html > o3jgtyj9m, ixozyzgz5c. bua83i0f2l 1e694c6ehk1j 39g0sfdlllc. > > * > > * > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: l5t06e 1ipfv
From: "rvtach" <rvtach(at)msn.com>
Date: Jul 23, 2011
This happened to me on my Hotmail account and it did not go away until I changed my password. Hard as I might try to prevent it some jerk got my Hotmail password and sent Russian porn and Canadian Pharmacy spam to everyone in my address book several times over 2 weeks. Stopped as soon as I changed the password. Jim -------- Jim McChesney Tucson, AZ RV-7A Finishing Kit Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347479#347479 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 23, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: l5t06e 1ipfv
At 08:28 AM 7/23/2011, you wrote: > >This happened to me on my Hotmail account and it did not go away >until I changed my password. Hard as I might try to prevent it some >jerk got my Hotmail password and sent Russian porn and Canadian >Pharmacy spam to everyone in my address book several times over 2 >weeks. Stopped as soon as I changed the password. Hmmm . . . I don't think your address book is kept on hotmail servers but in your computer. For anyone to have access to that list suggests a compromise not only of your password for the sending of such mail . . . but a hacking of your computer via some trojan horse style application. I suggest that if you do not currently have and use effective anti-malware applications you should certainly start. It might even be wise to take your computer to a local service provider wise and capable in such matters for 'cleaning'. If the trojan is still operating, the problem may start up all over again . . . or new problems arise from the dishonorable use of other data that reside on your computer. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: max current through sub-d pins
From: "jayb" <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jul 23, 2011
I know I've seen this somewhere in the past... Can anyone point me to a doc that describes the max current allowed through a single sub-d pin? Thanks! Jay Exiting RV-10 door purgatory... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347512#347512 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: max current through sub-d pins
From: Daniel Hooper <enginerdy(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jul 23, 2011
This Amphenol one is rated to 7.5A. http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=7203030 These Tyco parts range from 3A to 7.5A (pdf page 4) http://www.te.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?Action=showdoc&DocId=Catalog+Section%7F82068_AMPLIMITE_Right-Angle_Posted_Conn%7F0108%7Fpdf%7FEnglish%7FENG_CS_82068_AMPLIMITE_Right-Angle_Posted_Conn_0108.pdf%7F1-1393480-7 Best to check your specific part data sheet. On Jul 23, 2011, at 10:11 PM, jayb wrote: > > I know I've seen this somewhere in the past... Can anyone point me to a doc that describes the max current allowed through a single sub-d pin? > > Thanks! > Jay > Exiting RV-10 door purgatory... > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347512#347512 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com>
Subject: Circuit breaker testing
Date: Jul 24, 2011
Hi Guys How do you bench test a circuit breaker ? Regards John ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: max current through sub-d pins
At 10:11 PM 7/23/2011, you wrote: > >I know I've seen this somewhere in the past... Can anyone point me >to a doc that describes the max current allowed through a single sub-d pin? A single 20AWG machined d-sub pin in relatively benign environments (not hot) is good for 7A. How much are you wanting to run? Is it continuos or intermittent duty? If you need a LOT of current capability through a harness terminated with a d-sub, you can parallel pins. Check out these conversations on the List some years ago. http://tinyurl.com/3wldv5g Also this excerpt from another conversation. >I could use some simple guidance here - assuming one correctly applied pin >on both sides of the connector, how much current can I safely pass through >one of them before needing to split the power connection between two >pins? or Three? or Four? For the target project, I derated D-sub pins to 4A. For larger current requirements, I parallel whatever is necessary to keep individual pin loading to 4A or less. To parallel two pins, you need to swamp out the small variation in resistance from pin to pin. It's seldom satisfactory, for example, to simply short an array of pins together at the back of the connector and expect current through the array to distribute evenly across the array. Taking a cue from past tasks where I needed to parallel multiple transistors in a power control circuit (we added small value ballast resistors in series with the emitter lead of each transistor) I reasoned that we can short all the pins together at the connector on one half (in this case the etched circuit board side). For the mating connector, each pin gets a 22AWG wire about 10" long. The array of wires is joined to a common butt-splice. The other side of the butt splice carries on with the size of wire appropriate for the circuit's total current. The approximately 10 milliohms of wire resistance offered by each pigtail has the same effect as the ballast resistors in an array of paralleled transistors. Tiny variations in resistance from pin-to-pin a insignificant compared to the value of the ballast resistance. See: http://tinyurl.com/3flxqcc Here I suggested a 3A de-rating but I believe we were talking about stuff that was tested hot . . . like 80C. I think I derated those target pins to 2A. I seem to recall 7 pins in the 20A array of pins. These are continuos duty considerations too. The pin can carry intermittent currents on the order of 2x the continuous rating. > Why not keep power on good ole AMP/Molex >connectors? The D-sub connector is compact. You can get very high quality gold plated pins for them. They're easily worked with low cost tools . . . even if you use the machined pins. The AMP Mate-n-Lock and Molex connectors don't come in right angle PC mount versions. Their contact density is much lower than the D-sub. I don't think you can get them in greater numbers than 12 contacts per plug/socket. If you're building a product where you'd like to mix high current (10A+) wires in with small signal wires, the AMP/MOLEX solutions will either have you paralleling conductors in the small pins -OR- having to upsize the connector just because you have one or two wires out of the total that carry heavy current. The D-sub solution offers a fair selection of connector sizes (9, 15, 25, 37, 50) and a large range of connector configurations that let you deal seamlessly with panel mount, ecb mount and cable mounted versions. You can easily intermix micro-amp signal and control with some rather hefty power wiring with a single technology. There are some new circular connectors from AMP that use the same pins as the D-sub . . . these too might be considered for similar treatment . . . I'm not sure if AMP offers any ECB mount versions yet . . . and it's unlikely that there will ever be a right-angle ECB version. All things considered, in spite of the ugly hole you have to cut to mount a D-sub, the availability of low cost, high quality pins and inexpensive tooling combine to make them attractive for a broad range of applications. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Circuit breaker testing
At 03:10 AM 7/24/2011, you wrote: > > >Hi Guys > >How do you bench test a circuit breaker ? Hook it up with a power supply (battery?) and a load equal to 2x the breaker's rating. it should trip in no more than 15 seconds. Thermal breakers are not tightly calibrated devices. See: http://tinyurl.com/42syhqb Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: l5t06e 1ipfv
From: "rvtach" <rvtach(at)msn.com>
Date: Jul 24, 2011
I think my Hotmail address book is on their server because when I log into my email account from another computer I can access it to send emails. Jim -------- Jim McChesney Tucson, AZ RV-7A Finishing Kit Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347549#347549 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: l5t06e 1ipfv
From: Keith Ward <keithward1(at)bellsouth.net>
Date: Jul 24, 2011
Jim, Generally what happens is that a virus is picked up from clicking on a bogus link attached to an email. The virus attacks your computer's (not hotmails) address book and begins sending messages to everyone of your contacts on your behalf. To fix you need to do four things: 1. Run a top notch anti-virus program and do a full scan of your computer. 2. Change all your email account passwords. 3. Send a blanket message to everyone in your address book letting them know the issue will be resolved within the week. 4. Change your Internet provider password (probably not necessary, but it can't hurt) Bonus- buy a Mac and never worry about viruses again. Keith On Jul 24, 2011, at 10:32 AM, "rvtach" wrote: > > I think my Hotmail address book is on their server because when I log into my email account from another computer I can access it to send emails. > > Jim > > -------- > Jim McChesney > Tucson, AZ > RV-7A Finishing Kit > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347549#347549 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 2011
Subject: Re: l5t06e 1ipfv
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net>
On 7/24/2011 11:04 AM, Keith Ward wrote: > Bonus- buy a Mac and never worry about viruses again. > Or, the free option, download a Linux distro and install it on your PC... :-) http://centos.org is my favorite. -Dj ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 2011
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Subject: Re: l5t06e 1ipfv
Just another myth. NO OS is totally immune from viruses. The degree they get attacked depends on how popular they are. On 7/24/2011 8:33 AM, Dj Merrill wrote: > > On 7/24/2011 11:04 AM, Keith Ward wrote: >> Bonus- buy a Mac and never worry about viruses again. >> > > Or, the free option, download a Linux distro and install it on > your PC... :-) > > http://centos.org is my favorite. > > -Dj > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 2011
Subject: Re: l5t06e 1ipfv
From: Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net>
On 7/24/2011 11:43 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > > > Just another myth. NO OS is totally immune from viruses. The degree > they get attacked depends on how popular they are. ... and also how vulnerable they are. Some OSes are simply less secure than others, but you are correct that none are immune. -Dj ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 2011
From: stickandrudder1(at)comcast.net
Subject: P-Mag Switch(s)
I'm going with one standard Slick mag and one P-MAG. I need to verify that the Slick is actually working as part of the pre-flight run-up, but I can't figure out how to do it by controlling the P-MAG with a single S700-2-10 and the Slick with a S700-1-3. The P-MAG manual says not to turn the power to the P-MAG off until the engine has come to a stop, and they also say to use the P-MAG to start the engine. Finally they say to not to turn the power off and on while the engine is running. I'm planning to wire the P-MAG per the schematic on Z-13/8. The only way I can figure out how to get there from here is to add a second switch to control the P-MAG's P-Lead. What have others done? Thanks in advance. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: l5t06e 1ipfv
At 09:32 AM 7/24/2011, you wrote: > >I think my Hotmail address book is on their server because when I >log into my email account from another computer I can access it to send emails. Aha! Good to hear. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: P-Mag Switch(s)
At 12:15 PM 7/24/2011, you wrote: >I'm going with one standard Slick mag and one P-MAG. I need to >verify that the Slick is actually working as part of the pre-flight >run-up, but I can't figure out how to do it by controlling the P-MAG >with a single S700-2-10 and the Slick with a S700-1-3. The P-MAG >manual says not to turn the power to the P-MAG off until the engine >has come to a stop, and they also say to use the P-MAG to start the >engine. Finally they say to not to turn the power off and on while >the engine is running. > >I'm planning to wire the P-MAG per the schematic on Z-13/8. The >only way I can figure out how to get there from here is to add a >second switch to control the P-MAG's P-Lead. Emacs! Figure Z-13/8Q is fully compliant with Emag's recommendations for operating their product. It's the 'progressive transfer' Hat-dance unique to the 2-10 switch that offers this compliance. Further, this idea is re-enforced by the words in the note-box adjacent to the wiring diagram. Once you move the 2-10 from OFf to BAT, the Emag is powered and stays powered until you move the switch to OFF. During starting and preflight, you can manipulate the switch between BAT and ON at will for the purpose off enabling/disabling the Emag in the conduct of normal flight ops while maintaining battery power on the Emag. When you park the airplane, only moving the switch to OFF removes power from the Emag. Bob . . . >What have others done? > >Thanks in advance. > > ><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - <http://www.avg.com>www.avg.com Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: P-Mag Switch(s)
>The P-MAG manual says not to turn the power to the P-MAG off until >the engine has come to a stop, and they also say to use the P-MAG to >start the engine. Finally they say to not to turn the power off and >on while the engine is running. Hmmm . . . I'm a bit surprised at this statement in the P-Mag manual. P-Mag generates its own operating power internally. The prohibition for powering down an E-Mag was to avoid unpredictable behaviors if the microprocessor were un-powered and then re-powered while the engine was running. The intuitive narration suggests that since the internal and external power sources are automatic switched back-ups for each other, removal of battery power after the engine is running should be a seamless event. If were a concern with the P-Mag, there would also be a note suggesting that if battery power fails at any time in flight, the pilot should avoid allowing it to spontaneously restore. I'll email Brad and double check on this. Need to update with those guys anyhow. It's been too long. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: P-Mag Switch(s)
Date: Jul 24, 2011
It appears to me the question is about P-mags, but Bob's answer is for the E-mags. The difference may be suttle but the operation is not (in my opinion). The Emagair website as a FAQ section. In it, it describes how to test that the P-mag is generating it's own power. It suggests pullling the P-mag breaker while running only on the Pmag to see if the engine keeps running etc. This is contrary to what the original poster wrote about Emagair's recommendation. FWIW, I don't believe Emagair is selling the E-mag version anymore. P-mag is the way to go. Perhaps the documentation needs to be updated? Bevan Waiting for my P-mags to arrive in the mail. :) _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 11:49 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Switch(s) At 12:15 PM 7/24/2011, you wrote: I'm going with one standard Slick mag and one P-MAG. I need to verify that the Slick is actually working as part of the pre-flight run-up, but I can't figure out how to do it by controlling the P-MAG with a single S700-2-10 and the Slick with a S700-1-3. The P-MAG manual says not to turn the power to the P-MAG off until the engine has come to a stop, and they also say to use the P-MAG to start the engine. Finally they say to not to turn the power off and on while the engine is running. I'm planning to wire the P-MAG per the schematic on Z-13/8. The only way I can figure out how to get there from here is to add a second switch to control the P-MAG's P-Lead. Emacs! Figure Z-13/8Q is fully compliant with Emag's recommendations for operating their product. It's the 'progressive transfer' Hat-dance unique to the 2-10 switch that offers this compliance. Further, this idea is re-enforced by the words in the note-box adjacent to the wiring diagram. Once you move the 2-10 from OFf to BAT, the Emag is powered and stays powered until you move the switch to OFF. During starting and preflight, you can manipulate the switch between BAT and ON at will for the purpose off enabling/disabling the Emag in the conduct of normal flight ops while maintaining battery power on the Emag. When you park the airplane, only moving the switch to OFF removes power from the Emag. Bob . . . What have others done? Thanks in advance. AeroElectric-List Email Forum - <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> http://www.matronics.com/contribution No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 07/24/11 Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Zimmer" <stickandrudder1(at)comcast.net>
Subject: P-Mag Switch(s)
Date: Jul 24, 2011
Agreed. However it's my understanding (based on what I've read; and so maybe accurate maybe not) that an RPM drop when switching the standard mag on and off may not (Likely may not) be noticed when operating along side a PMAG, and since there is no way to ground the P-Lead without also turning the power off you can't get there with one switch. Wait a sec. I may have answered my own question. Since the E-MAG is internally powered above ~ 900 RPM, I should be able to turn the external power off during run-up (thereby grounding the P-Lead), and assuming the Slick mag is on - if the engine remains running (hopefully with some sort of reduced RMP), test completed. _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 2:49 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Switch(s) At 12:15 PM 7/24/2011, you wrote: I'm going with one standard Slick mag and one P-MAG. I need to verify that the Slick is actually working as part of the pre-flight run-up, but I can't figure out how to do it by controlling the P-MAG with a single S700-2-10 and the Slick with a S700-1-3. The P-MAG manual says not to turn the power to the P-MAG off until the engine has come to a stop, and they also say to use the P-MAG to start the engine. Finally they say to not to turn the power off and on while the engine is running. I'm planning to wire the P-MAG per the schematic on Z-13/8. The only way I can figure out how to get there from here is to add a second switch to control the P-MAG's P-Lead. Emacs! Figure Z-13/8Q is fully compliant with Emag's recommendations for operating their product. It's the 'progressive transfer' Hat-dance unique to the 2-10 switch that offers this compliance. Further, this idea is re-enforced by the words in the note-box adjacent to the wiring diagram. Once you move the 2-10 from OFf to BAT, the Emag is powered and stays powered until you move the switch to OFF. During starting and preflight, you can manipulate the switch between BAT and ON at will for the purpose off enabling/disabling the Emag in the conduct of normal flight ops while maintaining battery power on the Emag. When you park the airplane, only moving the switch to OFF removes power from the Emag. Bob . . . What have others done? Thanks in advance. AeroElectric-List Email Forum - <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> http://www.matronics.com/contribution No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 07/24/11 Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Zimmer" <stickandrudder1(at)comcast.net>
Subject: P-Mag Switch(s)
Date: Jul 24, 2011
Meant P-MAG in the post below. _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Zimmer Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 3:30 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Switch(s) Agreed. However it's my understanding (based on what I've read; and so maybe accurate maybe not) that an RPM drop when switching the standard mag on and off may not (Likely may not) be noticed when operating along side a PMAG, and since there is no way to ground the P-Lead without also turning the power off you can't get there with one switch. Wait a sec. I may have answered my own question. Since the E-MAG is internally powered above ~ 900 RPM, I should be able to turn the external power off during run-up (thereby grounding the P-Lead), and assuming the Slick mag is on - if the engine remains running (hopefully with some sort of reduced RMP), test completed. _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 2:49 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Switch(s) At 12:15 PM 7/24/2011, you wrote: I'm going with one standard Slick mag and one P-MAG. I need to verify that the Slick is actually working as part of the pre-flight run-up, but I can't figure out how to do it by controlling the P-MAG with a single S700-2-10 and the Slick with a S700-1-3. The P-MAG manual says not to turn the power to the P-MAG off until the engine has come to a stop, and they also say to use the P-MAG to start the engine. Finally they say to not to turn the power off and on while the engine is running. I'm planning to wire the P-MAG per the schematic on Z-13/8. The only way I can figure out how to get there from here is to add a second switch to control the P-MAG's P-Lead. Emacs! Figure Z-13/8Q is fully compliant with Emag's recommendations for operating their product. It's the 'progressive transfer' Hat-dance unique to the 2-10 switch that offers this compliance. Further, this idea is re-enforced by the words in the note-box adjacent to the wiring diagram. Once you move the 2-10 from OFf to BAT, the Emag is powered and stays powered until you move the switch to OFF. During starting and preflight, you can manipulate the switch between BAT and ON at will for the purpose off enabling/disabling the Emag in the conduct of normal flight ops while maintaining battery power on the Emag. When you park the airplane, only moving the switch to OFF removes power from the Emag. Bob . . . What have others done? Thanks in advance. AeroElectric-List Email Forum - <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> http://www.matronics.com/contribution No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 07/24/11 Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Zimmer" <stickandrudder1(at)comcast.net>
Subject: P-Mag Switch(s)
Date: Jul 24, 2011
I read the suggestion about pulling the P-MAG breaker too. So the implication is it's OK to pull external power from the P-MAG once it's generating its own power. Assuming this is true, my question about how to tell if my Slick is working, becomes a moot point. _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of B Tomm Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 3:22 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Switch(s) It appears to me the question is about P-mags, but Bob's answer is for the E-mags. The difference may be suttle but the operation is not (in my opinion). The Emagair website as a FAQ section. In it, it describes how to test that the P-mag is generating it's own power. It suggests pullling the P-mag breaker while running only on the Pmag to see if the engine keeps running etc. This is contrary to what the original poster wrote about Emagair's recommendation. FWIW, I don't believe Emagair is selling the E-mag version anymore. P-mag is the way to go. Perhaps the documentation needs to be updated? Bevan Waiting for my P-mags to arrive in the mail. :) _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 11:49 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Switch(s) At 12:15 PM 7/24/2011, you wrote: I'm going with one standard Slick mag and one P-MAG. I need to verify that the Slick is actually working as part of the pre-flight run-up, but I can't figure out how to do it by controlling the P-MAG with a single S700-2-10 and the Slick with a S700-1-3. The P-MAG manual says not to turn the power to the P-MAG off until the engine has come to a stop, and they also say to use the P-MAG to start the engine. Finally they say to not to turn the power off and on while the engine is running. I'm planning to wire the P-MAG per the schematic on Z-13/8. The only way I can figure out how to get there from here is to add a second switch to control the P-MAG's P-Lead. Emacs! Figure Z-13/8Q is fully compliant with Emag's recommendations for operating their product. It's the 'progressive transfer' Hat-dance unique to the 2-10 switch that offers this compliance. Further, this idea is re-enforced by the words in the note-box adjacent to the wiring diagram. Once you move the 2-10 from OFf to BAT, the Emag is powered and stays powered until you move the switch to OFF. During starting and preflight, you can manipulate the switch between BAT and ON at will for the purpose off enabling/disabling the Emag in the conduct of normal flight ops while maintaining battery power on the Emag. When you park the airplane, only moving the switch to OFF removes power from the Emag. Bob . . . What have others done? Thanks in advance. AeroElectric-List Email Forum - <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> http://www.matronics.com/contribution No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 07/24/11 Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: max current through sub-d pins
From: "jayb" <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jul 24, 2011
Nothing fancy here... Just using D-Subs provided by Stein. I don't recall ever seeing a datasheet on those parts. Regards, Jay Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347589#347589 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 2011
From: Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Subject: Re: P-Mag Switch(s)
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: P-Mag Switch(s)
At 02:43 PM 7/24/2011, you wrote: >Meant P-MAG in the post below. > > >---------- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Zimmer >Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 3:30 PM >To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Switch(s) > >Agreed. However it's my understanding (based on what I've read; and >so maybe accurate maybe not) that an RPM drop when switching the >standard mag on and off may not (Likely may not) be noticed when >operating along side a PMAG, and since there is no way to ground the >P-Lead without also turning the power off you can't get there with one switch. > >Wait a sec. I may have answered my own question. > >Since the E-MAG is internally powered above ~ 900 RPM, I should be >able to turn the external power off during run-up (thereby grounding >the P-Lead), and assuming the Slick mag is on - if the engine >remains running (hopefully with some sort of reduced RMP), test completed. Check the wiring for Z-13/8 . . . while the E-mag Air ignition is labeled E-mag, the only difference between p and e-mags is that removing DC power from the e-version will cause it to shut down. However, when wired with the 2-10 switch as shown, you can DISABLE the e or p-mag without REMOVING power to the electronics. In other words, as far as your pre-flight ignition tests go, you can accomplish ignition integrity tests during run up whether you have an e-mag or p-mag installed. The question becomes how to test the internal power generation system of a p-mag. If the builder uses breakers on the panel (a la Lightspeed) or an additional switch in the power path, then you can do it with a high degree of convenience . . . I spent several hours in Emag's shops a few years ago. Brad and I discussed the single 2-10, single switch, battery-bus fed architecture of Z-13/8. Brad advised me that the reliability of this feature is so high that one could do it periodically, like every oil change or plug cleaning task. But you do need to pull the battery bus fuse, open the battery bus breaker, or ADD some power interruption feature that can be exercised with the engine running. This could be a spring-loaded, normally-closed toggle switch . . . perhaps out of sight even but accessible from the cockpit. In any case, I do recommend that the e or p-mag be powered from the battery bus . . . turning of the master should have no effect on things needed to keep the engine running. I've had some builders worry about that 'inaccessible fuse' on the battery bus. The p-mag supplies 100% of internal power needs above 2000 rpm. An e-mag draws only 0.8 amps max at cruise. Emacs! So a 5A feeder off the battery is exceedingly robust. If you pop that fuse, something is so badly wrong that the ability to replace the fuse or reset a breaker has about 1 chance in a thousand of restoring usefulness of that ignition system. If you routinely start with the magneto off that power path gets tested at each engine start. If you have dual p-mags, then develop a habit of starting on alternate ignition systems. The mag-drop thing is another set of simple ideas. The reasons that you see a drop in engine RPM when killing one mag are these: Cylinders in an aircraft engine are pretty big in diameter. The compressed mixture is normally lit off on both sides of a cylinder by the upper and lower plugs. At low manifold (and lower cylinder pressures, the flame front across the top of the cylinder is significantly slower than at full power (high) pressures. When you turn off one ignition source, the flame front starting at the sparked plug has to travel all the way across the cylinder. Normally, two flame fronts meet in the middle in half the time. Single ignition has the net effect of RETARDING the timing of the ignition and the engine slows. The actual amount of 'mag drop' is not terribly significant . . . but it's useful to note that they are identical. This verifies that the timing for the two mags agree with each other. It has no other significance with respect to ignition integrity or reliability. Electronic ignitions are automatically advanced in response to manifold pressures and engine rpm. When two electronic ignitions are installed, you may not observe any 'mag drop' when killing one of the two systems. When you have one electronic and one mag, you may see very little no drop when the mag ignition is shut off and the usually expected 'mag drop' when the electronic ignition is shut off. This is because they are never timed together except during full power ops. All other times the mag lags the electronic ignition by a significant interval of crank rotation. But Z-13/8 is correct as shown for either Emag product. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Zimmer" <stickandrudder1(at)comcast.net>
Subject: P-Mag Switch(s)
Date: Jul 24, 2011
Mystery solved. I've been basing my P-Mag switch on Z-13/8K. Based on your statement below "However, when wired with the 2-10 switch as shown, you can DISABLE the e or p-mag without REMOVING power to the electronics.", which I knew to be inaccurate insofar as the schematic I was looking at was concerned, I decided to see if I was looking at Z-13/8Q, and alas I wasn't. Schematic Z-13/8Q changed the configuration of the 2-10, and in this configuration, it will do what is needed. Thanks for your help and for the other explanations below. Paul _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 9:11 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Switch(s) At 02:43 PM 7/24/2011, you wrote: Meant P-MAG in the post below. _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [ mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Zimmer Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 3:30 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Switch(s) Agreed. However it=12s my understanding (based on what I=12ve read; and so maybe accurate maybe not) that an RPM drop when switching the standard mag on and off may not (Likely may not) be noticed when operating along side a PMAG, and since there is no way to ground the P-Lead without also turning the power off you can=12t get there with one switch. Wait a sec. I may have answered my own question. Since the E-MAG is internally powered above ~ 900 RPM, I should be able to turn the external power off during run-up (thereby grounding the P-Lead), and assuming the Slick mag is on - if the engine remains running (hopefully with some sort of reduced RMP), test completed. Check the wiring for Z-13/8 . . . while the E-mag Air ignition is labeled E-mag, the only difference between p and e-mags is that removing DC power from the e-version will cause it to shut down. However, when wired with the 2-10 switch as shown, you can DISABLE the e or p-mag without REMOVING power to the electronics. In other words, as far as your pre-flight ignition tests go, you can accomplish ignition integrity tests during run up whether you have an e-mag or p-mag installed. The question becomes how to test the internal power generation system of a p-mag. If the builder uses breakers on the panel (a la Lightspeed) or an additional switch in the power path, then you can do it with a high degree of convenience . . . I spent several hours in Emag's shops a few years ago. Brad and I discussed the single 2-10, single switch, battery-bus fed architecture of Z-13/8. Brad advised me that the reliability of this feature is so high that one could do it periodically, like every oil change or plug cleaning task. But you do need to pull the battery bus fuse, open the battery bus breaker, or ADD some power interruption feature that can be exercised with the engine running. This could be a spring-loaded, normally-closed toggle switch . . . perhaps out of sight even but accessible from the cockpit. In any case, I do recommend that the e or p-mag be powered from the battery bus . . . turning of the master should have no effect on things needed to keep the engine running. I've had some builders worry about that 'inaccessible fuse' on the battery bus. The p-mag supplies 100% of internal power needs above 2000 rpm. An e-mag draws only 0.8 amps max at cruise. Emacs! So a 5A feeder off the battery is exceedingly robust. If you pop that fuse, something is so badly wrong that the ability to replace the fuse or reset a breaker has about 1 chance in a thousand of restoring usefulness of that ignition system. If you routinely start with the magneto off that power path gets tested at each engine start. If you have dual p-mags, then develop a habit of starting on alternate ignition systems. The mag-drop thing is another set of simple ideas. The reasons that you see a drop in engine RPM when killing one mag are these: Cylinders in an aircraft engine are pretty big in diameter. The compressed mixture is normally lit off on both sides of a cylinder by the upper and lower plugs. At low manifold (and lower cylinder pressures, the flame front across the top of the cylinder is significantly slower than at full power (high) pressures. When you turn off one ignition source, the flame front starting at the sparked plug has to travel all the way across the cylinder. Normally, two flame fronts meet in the middle in half the time. Single ignition has the net effect of RETARDING the timing of the ignition and the engine slows. The actual amount of 'mag drop' is not terribly significant . . . but it's useful to note that they are identical. This verifies that the timing for the two mags agree with each other. It has no other significance with respect to ignition integrity or reliability. Electronic ignitions are automatically advanced in response to manifold pressures and engine rpm. When two electronic ignitions are installed, you may not observe any 'mag drop' when killing one of the two systems. When you have one electronic and one mag, you may see very little no drop when the mag ignition is shut off and the usually expected 'mag drop' when the electronic ignition is shut off. This is because they are never timed together except during full power ops. All other times the mag lags the electronic ignition by a significant interval of crank rotation. But Z-13/8 is correct as shown for either Emag product. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 24, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: P-Mag Switch(s)
At 09:56 PM 7/24/2011, you wrote: >Mystery solved. I've been basing my P-Mag switch on Z-13/8K. Based >on your statement below "However, when wired with the 2-10 switch >as shown, you can DISABLE the e or p-mag without REMOVING power to >the electronics.", which I knew to be inaccurate insofar as the >schematic I was looking at was concerned, I decided to see if I was >looking at Z-13/8Q, and alas I wasn't. Schematic Z-13/8Q changed >the configuration of the 2-10, and in this configuration, it will do >what is needed. > >Thanks for your help and for the other explanations below. Yup, it do make a difference. Z-13/8K was the drawing that started our discussions with Brad and friends some years ago . . . and prompted the update. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 25, 2011
From: David <ainut(at)knology.net>
Subject: Re: l5t06e 1ipfv
I'm a UNIX head from way, way back (early 80's). Playing right now with Ubuntu and Suse distributions, among others. Ubuntu seems to hold up the best. David M. > > On 7/24/2011 11:04 AM, Keith Ward wrote: >> Bonus- buy a Mac and never worry about viruses again. >> > > Or, the free option, download a Linux distro and install it on > your PC... :-) > > http://centos.org is my favorite. > > -Dj > > -- If you're an American, just say NO to the Obamanation, to socialism, and get rid of Soros. ...democracy and a republic can function only in a firm partnership with morality and religion. -- John Adams. Indeed. Same should be said for ANY type of gubmnt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 26, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Batteries: To fly . . . or not to fly . . . that IS
the question. Got an e-mail flyer this morning showing this guy on sale for $10 off . . Emacs! http://tinyurl.com/3gnnwrt Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CardinalNSB(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 27, 2011
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 07/26/11
Harbor Freight also has 20 percent off coupons. If its "on sale" the 20 percent coupon applies, but the 20 percent coupon won't work with another "coupon". HF usually has a full page spread in several hot rod/diy magazines with the coupons, they expire quickly though so read the fine print. Skip Simpson In a message dated 7/27/2011 12:01:22 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com writes: http://tinyurl.com/3gnnwrt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 27, 2011
From: RScott <rscott(at)cascadeaccess.com>
Subject: Politically incorrect
At sports bar trivia quiz the other night, I lost by one point. The question was, where do women mostly have curly hair? Apparently, it's Africa One of the other questions was to name two things commonly found in cells. It appears that Mexicans and African Americans is not the correct answer I've heard that Apple has scrapped their plans for the new children's-oriented iPod after realizing that iTouch Kids is not a good product name. A new Muslim clothing shop opened here, but I've been banned from it after asking to look at some bomber jackets You can say lots of bad things about pedophiles but at least they drive slowly past schools A friend of mine has just told me he's shagging his girlfriend and her twin.. I asked, "How can you tell them apart?" He said, "Her brother has a moustache" Just put a deposit down on a brand new Porsche and mentioned it on Facebook.. I said "I can't wait for the new 911 to arrive!" Next thing I know 4000 Muslims have added me as a friend!! Being a modest man, when I checked into my hotel on a recent trip, I said to the lady at the registration desk ... "I hope the porn channel in my room is disabled." To which she replied, "No, it's regular porn, you sick bastard. The red cross knocked at my door asking if I could help towards the floods in Pakistan . I said I would love to, but my hose only reaches the bottom of the driveway. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tony Babb" <tonybabb(at)alejandra.net>
Subject: Gone quiet ??
Date: Jul 28, 2011
Is it me or has it gone quiet around here? Nothing for the past couple of days Tony From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 12:49 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Batteries: To fly . . . or not to fly . . . that IS the question. Got an e-mail flyer this morning showing this guy on sale for $10 off . . Emacs! <http://tinyurl.com/3gnnwrt> http://tinyurl.com/3gnnwrt Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Gone quiet ??
At 10:37 PM 7/28/2011, you wrote: > >Is it me or has it gone quiet around here? Nothing for the past couple of days >Tony Just too d@#$ed hot. Bet everybody is setting in front of the fan with a cool one . . . I've been working on the bathroom in our little house in Lindsborg . . . the A/C outlet for the bathroom is a 4' run from the air handler. I've enjoyed having it blow up my pant legs for the last few days! Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 2011
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Gone quiet ??
I think OSH is keeping everyone busy. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 07/28/2011 10:37 PM, Tony Babb wrote: > Is it me or has it gone quiet around here? Nothing for the past couple > of days > > Tony > > *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Robert L. Nuckolls, III > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 26, 2011 12:49 PM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Batteries: To fly . . . or not to fly . . > . that IS the question. > > Got an e-mail flyer this morning showing this > guy on sale for $10 off . . > > Emacs! > > > *http://tinyurl.com/3gnnwrt* > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Re-crimping
Date: Jul 28, 2011
Bob, I've recently started crimping wires on the RV7 project. I've been using the El-Cheapo variety of crimper but also have the Amp T-Head crimper on hand. The el-cheapo is easier to use for fast-ons (unless I'm doing something wrong) but the T-head looks like it makes a much better crimp particularly on the wire jacket. Actually, it looks like my el-cheapo does not crimp the jacket at all. I've read your excellent blurb on the subject here http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html So I am going to try to get more efficient with the T-Head but what about the crimps already made?. My question is, would I be hurting the quality of the existing crimps by "re-crimping with the T-Head? i.e. going over them again with the T-Head? Thanks Bevan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 9:12 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Gone quiet ?? --> At 10:37 PM 7/28/2011, you wrote: > >Is it me or has it gone quiet around here? Nothing for the past couple >of days Tony Just too d@#$ed hot. Bet everybody is setting in front of the fan with a cool one . . . I've been working on the bathroom in our little house in Lindsborg . . . the A/C outlet for the bathroom is a 4' run from the air handler. I've enjoyed having it blow up my pant legs for the last few days! Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Max d-sub current?
Date: Jul 28, 2011
Bob, What is the max current that can be run through a crimp style d-sub pin and located in a DB-9 body? I'm thinking flap and trim tab currents, probably less than 5 amp for the flaps, much less for the trims. Bevan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 9:12 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Gone quiet ?? --> At 10:37 PM 7/28/2011, you wrote: > >Is it me or has it gone quiet around here? Nothing for the past couple >of days Tony Just too d@#$ed hot. Bet everybody is setting in front of the fan with a cool one . . . I've been working on the bathroom in our little house in Lindsborg . . . the A/C outlet for the bathroom is a 4' run from the air handler. I've enjoyed having it blow up my pant legs for the last few days! Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Re-crimping
> >My question is, would I be hurting the quality of the existing crimps by >"re-crimping with the T-Head? i.e. going over them again with the T-Head? I don't think this will 'hurt' anything . . . assuming you can get the terminal into the tool and cycle it without shaving the insulation. Try one and see what it looks like. You can do some experiments on pieces of scrap wire, a few terminals and the two tools before you attack the airplane. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Max d-sub current?
At 12:01 AM 7/29/2011, you wrote: > > >Bob, > >What is the max current that can be run through a crimp style d-sub pin and >located in a DB-9 body? I'm thinking flap and trim tab currents, probably >less than 5 amp for the flaps, much less for the trims. For these intermittent loads you can comfortably go 7A/pin on 20AWG wire. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 2011
From: RScott <rscott(at)cascadeaccess.com>
Subject: Solving the debt problem
Midwestern tycoon Warren Buffett presented his quick and easy solution to America;s debt problem: "I could end the deficit in five minutes. You just pass a law that says that anytime there is a deficit of more than three percent of GDP all sitting members of congress are ineligible for reelection." ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Solving the debt problem
Date: Jul 29, 2011
Midwestern tycoon Warren Buffett presented his quick and easy solution to America;s debt problem: Please go to a political forum. This is not the place for politics!!! Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 2011
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Solving the debt problem
Bob has a forum for political discussion. You can contact him about signing up. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 07/29/2011 12:59 PM, ROGER & JEAN CURTIS wrote: > > Midwestern tycoon Warren Buffett presented his quick and easy solution > to America;s debt problem: > > > Please go to a political forum. This is not the place for > politics!!! > > Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: IvoProp circuit question
Date: Jul 30, 2011
Bob=2C I finally finished my mini-vacations=2C off visiting my kids and grandkid s=2C and have now tackled that IvoProp current limiter circuit problem I had. Rather than try to figure out where I miswired something=2C I thought it easier to just build a whole new circuit. I've made great efforts to quadruple ch eck=2C and confirm that all the solder points are correct!! Polarities oriented p roperly=2C when needed=2C everything connected to the right component!! So=2C at this point=2C I am pretty certain I have the entire circuit completed (properly). Only o ne last hook-up=3B the IRFP3703. Bob=2C could you help me make sure I get the connections to the IFRP3703 right? It has three "pins"=2C and I'm using the datasheet to identify them. Altho ugh the datasheet is clear=2C and easy to understand.....they used a different symb ol for the MOSFET than you did=2C and I'd like to be 100% certain I'm connecting i t right. According to the datasheet=2C looking at the rectifier=2C writing facing us=2C and pins down=2C pin 1 is the left (gate)=2C pin 2 (drain)=2C pin 3 (source). (and back the rmal pad is drain=2C also). On your IvoProp circuit=2C there are three attach points for the rectifier =2C could you identify them for me? 1. R113 attaches to the pin_______ 2. The junction of R116=2C R117=2C & R118 attach to pin_______ 3. Cathode of D108 & RED16 connect to pin________ Mike Welch ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 30, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: IvoProp circuit question
At 11:20 AM 7/30/2011, you wrote: >Bob, > > I finally finished my mini-vacations, off visiting my kids and > grandkids, and >have now tackled that IvoProp current limiter circuit problem I had. > > Rather than try to figure out where I miswired something, I > thought it easier >to just build a whole new circuit. Could you send me your old one? > I've made great efforts to quadruple check, >and confirm that all the solder points are correct!! Polarities >oriented properly, >when needed, everything connected to the right component!! So, at this point, >I am pretty certain I have the entire circuit completed (properly). Only one >last hook-up; the IRFP3703. > > Bob, could you help me make sure I get the connections to the > IFRP3703 right? >It has three "pins", and I'm using the datasheet to identify >them. Although the >datasheet is clear, and easy to understand.....they used a different >symbol for >the MOSFET than you did, and I'd like to be 100% certain I'm >connecting it right.. > > According to the datasheet, looking at the rectifier, writing > facing us, and pins down, >pin 1 is the left (gate), pin 2 (drain), pin 3 (source). (and back >thermal pad is drain, also).. >On your IvoProp circuit, there are three attach points for the >rectifier, could you identify >them for me? Emacs! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: IvoProp circuit question
Date: Jul 30, 2011
Hi Bob=2C Sure=2C I can send you the old one. Back when I was ordering parts=2C I ordered multiples of everything....except the IRFP3703 (it came from Digi-Key=2C everything e lse from Mouser). I figured if I had any problems it'd be easier to build a new circuit tha n try and analyze where I had a problem. I cannibalized the IRFP3703 from the original circuit and am using it in the new one. Do you still want the old circuit....even though it's missing the rectifier? I can send everything else unchanged=2C unaltered=2C totally intact=2C as removed=2C including th e LEDs=2C and spade connectors=2C etc. BTW=2C I had the IRFP3703 separate from the actual circuit board. I moun ted it on a 2" x 2" piece of AL plate=2C connected by way of wires to the appropriate spots on the CB. All I did was snip the 3 wires for removal. For the record=3B I had it hooked up correctly. While I was waiting on a return email about my question=2C I found a datasheet of MOSFET symbols I originally use d to hook it up like you said to do. The data sheet had several configurations of MOSFETs =2C including one virtually the same as the design you had in the circuit. Thanks for your help=2C Mike Welch PS What is the preferred address to send it to? 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From: "Paul Zimmer" <stickandrudder1(at)comcast.net>
Subject: More FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt)?
Date: Jul 30, 2011
Bob, a number of manufacturers state in their installation manuals (Garmin - GTN 650, PS Engineering - PS9000EX) that the use of push-pull circuit breakers is required, and that the breakers "be readily accessible to the pilot." Based on your recommendation I intend to use fuses, for simplicity and cost. What's your view on the matter? I'm reluctant to go against a manufacturer's recommendation/requirement, but don't want to do it blindly either. As long as I'm asking, what's your view on the VPX-PRO? I was initially attracted to it, but thought better of it for a number of reasons (much higher cost than fuses, support issues if Vertical Power goes away, electronic interface to reset an ECB (i.e. complexity?), single power bus, etc.). Plus, I'n not sure if the added benefits of their systems exceed the negatives. I'd be interested in your opinion. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 31, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: More FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt)?
At 08:48 PM 7/30/2011, you wrote: >Bob, a number of manufacturers state in their >installation manuals (Garmin - GTN 650, PS >Engineering ' PS9000EX) that the use of >push-pull circuit breakers is required, and that >the breakers =93be readily accessible to the >pilot.=94 Based on your recommendation I intend >to use fuses, for simplicity and cost. What=92s >your view on the matter? I=92m reluctant to go >against a manufacturer=92s >recommendation/requirement, but don=92t want to do it blindly either. Black box designers are not systems designers. Further, their products are generally tested to meet performance and environmental specifications that are never called upon to 'test the efficacy of protection for power feeders.' In other words, it's none of their business. If their devices were being installed in an airplane fitted with a VP system . . . or an airplane like the Eclipse, there are no pullable breakers. Do these same folks insist on an Avionics Master Switch? Bottom line is that the authors of their installation manuals are more lawyer than engineer. > >As long as I=92m asking, what=92s your view on the >VPX-PRO? I was initially attracted to it, but >thought better of it for a number of reasons >(much higher cost than fuses, support issues if >Vertical Power goes away, electronic interface >to reset an ECB (i.e. complexity?), single power >bus, etc.). Plus, I=92n not sure if the added >benefits of their systems exceed the >negatives. I=92d be interested in your opinion. What is your return on investment? Lighter airplane, faster airplane, lower fuel consumption? Yes, lots of nice nic-nacs but are you a PILOT or someone who would rather just be along for a nice ride? If you have a fuse/breaker/switch system, you know where every part comes from and what spares will cost you for repairs. If the VP system gets a cold, your airplane is down while the factory repairs it. It uses software you didn't write, parts you didn't buy and couldn't replace even if you had them . . . 'cause you don't understand it. I just don't see that the VP products are in synchronization for why we choose to built our own airplanes as opposed to paying factory prices. Certainly cost/performance ratio is a strong driver and I don't see how a VP product fits that recipe for success. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 31, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: IvoProp circuit question
At 03:29 PM 7/30/2011, you wrote: >Hi Bob, > > BTW, I had the IRFP3703 separate from the actual circuit > board. I mounted it on a 2" x 2" >piece of AL plate, connected by way of wires to the appropriate >spots on the CB. All I did >was snip the 3 wires for removal. That's okay I have the fets here. BTW, they don't need to be on a heatsink. The system shuts down so fast that the un-sinked device doesn't have time to get hot. I've got a manufactured assembly about ready to test. The FET on this assembly is right on the board with no heatsink. Emacs! The next generation device will have a surface mounted fet which is smaller yet. > For the record; I had it hooked up correctly. While I was > waiting on a return email >about my question, I found a datasheet of MOSFET symbols I >originally used to hook it up >like you said to do. The data sheet had several configurations of >MOSFETs, including one >virtually the same as the design you had in the circuit. Very good! Let me know how it works out. > Thanks for your help, > >Mike Welch >PS What is the preferred address to send it to? I had somewhere, >but it'd take me awhile >to find it. P.O. box 130, Medicine Lodge, KS 67104 Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 31, 2011
From: Jae Chang <jc-matronics_aeroelectric(at)jline.com>
Subject: Permanet Splicing RG400
I am wondering if there is a way of permanently splicing together 2 sections of coax wire together. I realize I could use a male/female connector. However, i would like to route this cable thru a wing conduit, and the bulky connectors would just get in the way. Thanks for any insights! Jae RV-10 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: FWF Connector
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
Date: Jul 31, 2011
I'm looking for a connector to use for my cowling-mounted landing light. I'll have to disconnect it every time I remove the cowl, so I'd like to find something fairly durable, with at least 3 conductors. Has anyone found a good product for this role? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 31, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Permanet Splicing RG400
At 09:51 AM 7/31/2011, you wrote: > > > I am wondering if there is a way of permanently splicing together > 2 sections of coax wire together. I realize I could use a > male/female connector. However, i would like to route this cable > thru a wing conduit, and the bulky connectors would just get in the way. This only works well with heat-resistant, modern coax like RG400 or RG142. Slip 2 pieces of 1/2" heat shrink, 4 inches long over ends to be spliced. Strip back 1-1/2" of outer jacket and push braids back to the end of the jackets. Cut center conductors to 1" per side, then strip 1/4" per side. Lap solder center conductors. Wrap exposed joint with Teflon pipe thread tape. It's okay if the tape overlaps the ends of the center conductor insulation and leaves a bit of a 'lump'. Then take braid from one side and pull it over the center conductor splice. Wrap the last 1/2" with a few turns of fine strand wire taken from some airframe wire. Solder wire wrap very thinly to the braid. You're wanting this to get 'fixtured' and 'smooth' without getting 'thick'. Pull the other braid over the fixtured braid and repeat the fine-strand-wire wrap. Then solder the braids to each other. Use 63/37 tin-lead solder. Cover joint with one piece of shrink and heat it. Cover with second piece of shrink and heat that. Yeah, this puts an 'impedance bump' in your feedline that can be observed with the proper test equipment. But if you had identical installations on the airplane except for one pristine feedline and one spliced feedline, you could switch back and forth between them and observe no difference in performance. I used to do this with RG-58 . . . it's pretty tricky due to low melting temperatures of the PVC and PolyE insulations but it CAN be done with practical success. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 31, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: FWF Connector
At 10:51 AM 7/31/2011, you wrote: > >I'm looking for a connector to use for my cowling-mounted landing >light. I'll have to disconnect it every time I remove the cowl, so >I'd like to find something fairly durable, with at least 3 >conductors. Has anyone found a good product for this role? Cessna started out with Wrist-Locks and/or knife spices in this role, then went to Amp Mate-n-locks. The plastic connectors demonstrated a service life of ten years or better. You could use a d-sub connector and do the pin-paralleling technique described here. http://tinyurl.com/3flxqcc A 15-pin connector with 5 paralleled pins per conductor would achieve some electrical robustness. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RGent1224(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 31, 2011
Subject: Re: FWF Connector
How about the three wire trailer light hook up Dick In a message dated 7/31/2011 10:55:44 A.M. Central Daylight Time, email(at)jaredyates.com writes: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jared Yates I'm looking for a connector to use for my cowling-mounted landing light. I'll have to disconnect it every time I remove the cowl, so I'd like to find something fairly durable, with at least 3 conductors. Has anyone found a good product for this role? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 31, 2011
Subject: Diodes
From: Dennis Ramsey <doramsey(at)gmail.com>
Is there a difference in the diode that should be used in a 24 volt contactor vs a 12 volt contactor. My kit provider supplied me with the following Diode specification: "1N4001 Diode; 1 a (Max.) @25C IF; 1. Max.)@25C; 5uAdc(max.)@2" " My plane is 24Volt. Not trying to stir up the 24 vs 12 volt debate. That debate was settled when the kit I bought already had some expensive 24 volt components purchased by the previous builder. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Permanet Splicing RG400
From: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Date: Jul 31, 2011
Hi Bob Thx. for your explanation on how to splice coax cable. Question: What is airframe wire? Strands of stainless or plain steel control wire rope (control cable)? Or perhaps you mean thin copper strands of Tefzel wire that is hanging around? "a few turns of fine strand wire taken from some airframe wire" Thx. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=348160#348160 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 31, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Diodes
At 11:14 AM 7/31/2011, you wrote: >Is there a difference in the diode that should be used in a 24 volt >contactor vs a 12 volt contactor. My kit provider supplied me with >the following Diode specification: > >"1N4001 Diode; 1 a (Max.) @25C IF; 1. Max.)@25C; 5uAdc(max.)@2" " > > My plane is 24Volt. Not trying to stir up the 24 vs 12 volt > debate. That debate was settled when the kit I bought already had > some expensive 24 volt components purchased by the previous builder. These diodes are EXCEEDINGLY un-critical. ANYTHING 50V or better, 1A or better does the job. My personal favorites are the 1N54xx series, 3A devices. They're readily available at Radio Shack http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId 62578 cheap but most important . . . robust. Heavier 20AWG leads and more robust bodies. But the diodes you have will be fine . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 31, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Permanet Splicing RG400
At 11:16 AM 7/31/2011, you wrote: > > >Hi Bob > >Thx. for your explanation on how to splice coax cable. > >Question: >What is airframe wire? Strands of stainless or plain steel control >wire rope (control cable)? Or perhaps you mean thin copper strands >of Tefzel wire that is hanging around? Sorry, 'hookup wire' is perhaps a better term. A piece of 22AWG, M22759 will yield some nice strands of 34AWG wire nicely suited to this 'fixturing' task. When you're lap-splicing stranded wire, you can use a strand from the base conductor as shown . . . http://tinyurl.com/dgg2nb But in the coax-splicing task, you need to acquire the fixture strands elsewhere. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 31, 2011
From: Sam Marlow <sam.marlow(at)roadrunner.com>
Subject: Re: FWF Connector
Jared Yates wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jared Yates > > I'm looking for a connector to use for my cowling-mounted landing light. I'll have to disconnect it every time I remove the cowl, so I'd like to find something fairly durable, with at least 3 conductors. Has anyone found a good product for this role? > > Cessna uses 2 knife splices on the older 172's. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 31, 2011
From: Jim Dabney <jdabney(at)rice.edu>
Subject: Re: FWF Connector
I'm using a Metripack connector for that and it's holding up well. On 7/31/2011 1:00 PM, Sam Marlow wrote: > > > Jared Yates wrote: >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jared >> Yates >> >> I'm looking for a connector to use for my cowling-mounted landing >> light. I'll have to disconnect it every time I remove the cowl, so >> I'd like to find something fairly durable, with at least 3 >> conductors. Has anyone found a good product for this role? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Cessna uses 2 knife splices on the older 172's. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: More FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt)?
Date: Jul 31, 2011
I've been fascinated w/ the VP product line since it came out. As an electrical engineer I think it is a really cool way to skin the Power Distribution cat but no matter how cool, I still don't want one in my airplane. It seems like there is a lot of complexity involved to accomplish a relatively simple mission - safe & reliable power distribution & control - something we've been doing for decades w/ relatively inexpensive & proven components. I'm all for trying to apply new technologies to solving old problems, but it's not easy, and sometimes the old way is hard to beat. It looks kind of like a solution looking for a problem and it seems to put all of your electrical eggs in one basket. Like Bob says, if the system gets sick, it must come out - thus grounding (electrical pun intended;) your airplane - while the system travels back and forth to the factory for repair. I think that you probably get a lot of bang but you also put up a lot of bucks - I just don't see the value - but then again I'm capable of designing & building my own system. Someone without that skill set may see it differently. I would like to hear from someone who is knowledgeable about VP's features/benefits discuss why they think those system are better, stronger, faster. I might learn something. -Jeff _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 22:50 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: More FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt)? At 08:48 PM 7/30/2011, you wrote: Bob, a number of manufacturers state in their installation manuals (Garmin - GTN 650, PS Engineering - PS9000EX) that the use of push-pull circuit breakers is required, and that the breakers "be readily accessible to the pilot." Based on your recommendation I intend to use fuses, for simplicity and cost. What's your view on the matter? I'm reluctant to go against a manufacturer's recommendation/requirement, but don't want to do it blindly either. Black box designers are not systems designers. Further, their products are generally tested to meet performance and environmental specifications that are never called upon to 'test the efficacy of protection for power feeders.' In other words, it's none of their business. If their devices were being installed in an airplane fitted with a VP system . . . or an airplane like the Eclipse, there are no pullable breakers. Do these same folks insist on an Avionics Master Switch? Bottom line is that the authors of their installation manuals are more lawyer than engineer. As long as I'm asking, what's your view on the VPX-PRO? I was initially attracted to it, but thought better of it for a number of reasons (much higher cost than fuses, support issues if Vertical Power goes away, electronic interface to reset an ECB (i.e. complexity?), single power bus, etc.). Plus, I'n not sure if the added benefits of their systems exceed the negatives. I'd be interested in your opinion. What is your return on investment? Lighter airplane, faster airplane, lower fuel consumption? Yes, lots of nice nic-nacs but are you a PILOT or someone who would rather just be along for a nice ride? If you have a fuse/breaker/switch system, you know where every part comes from and what spares will cost you for repairs. If the VP system gets a cold, your airplane is down while the factory repairs it. It uses software you didn't write, parts you didn't buy and couldn't replace even if you had them . . . 'cause you don't understand it. I just don't see that the VP products are in synchronization for why we choose to built our own airplanes as opposed to paying factory prices. Certainly cost/performance ratio is a strong driver and I don't see how a VP product fits that recipe for success. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 2011
From: Jae Chang <jc-matronics_aeroelectric(at)jline.com>
Subject: Re: Permanet Splicing RG400
Wow, thank you Bob for that detailed explanation. Now that I have the "how" I have to decide if it's worth it. Just checked on the price of RG400, and it seems to be around $2.50/ft. Egads! I swear that is 2x more than what i paid for my original order just a year ago!? That's $33 savings if i can splice the coax myself. :D Jae RV-10 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2011
Subject: Alternator Contactor
From: Dennis Ramsey <doramsey(at)gmail.com>
At Oshkosh, I sat in on an "electrical system design" forum. The presenter at the end presented there little box that they sell with all the contactors, fuses, and overvoltage protection in it. One of the contactors was an "alternator contactor". So I decided to stop by their booth and ask questions. Here is our conversation: Why do you need an alternator contactor? The field is going to be 5 amps or less, you can use a switch for that. "Our contactor is on the alternator output". Why do you need that, once you kill the field its going to shut down the alternator? "You can still have a run away alternator with the field shut off" Hmmm. So my question is, can you really have a runaway alternator with the field shut off? My B&C controller is focused on the field juice, and just wondering how much risk I have of an issue. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator Contactor
At 08:43 AM 8/2/2011, you wrote: At Oshkosh, I sat in on an "electrical system design" forum. The presenter at the end presented there little box that they sell with all the contactors, fuses, and overvoltage protection in it. One of the contactors was an "alternator contactor". So I decided to stop by their booth and ask questions. Here is our conversation: Why do you need an alternator contactor? The field is going to be 5 amps or less, you can use a switch for that. "Our contactor is on the alternator output". Why do you need that, once you kill the field its going to shut down the alternator? "You can still have a run away alternator with the field shut off" Hmmm. There is a exceedingly tiny chance that the alternator designer didn't do his homework and the alternator develops and internal short from field lead to some hot conductor within. Saw this happen one time at Mooney . . . they experienced an un-controllable runaway on a prototype alternator they were testing. So my question is, can you really have a runaway alternator with the field shut off? My B&C controller is focused on the field juice, and just wondering how much risk I have of an issue. Chances of this happening in real life are zero. Who is this organization? I'll send them a couple of books. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Permanet Splicing RG400
At 06:45 PM 8/1/2011, you wrote: > > > Wow, thank you Bob for that detailed explanation. Now that I have > the "how" I have to decide if it's worth it. > >Just checked on the price of RG400, and it seems to be around >$2.50/ft. Egads! I swear that is 2x more than what i paid for my >original order just a year ago!? That's $33 savings if i can splice >the coax myself. :D Yeah, that stuff has gotten expensive . . . but anything with copper in it has been given an excuse to jump in price . . . even if copper is the least expensive commodity in the product. I'll poke around my surplus/used sources and see if I can dig up some 400 at more attractive prices. But for our purposes, the splice I described is pretty easy to do and has no observable impact on performance. For that matter, you could consider RG58 for anything except GPS and Transponders. That coax performed well for decades. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 02, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Permanet Splicing RG400
> I'll poke around my surplus/used sources and see > if I can dig up some 400 at more attractive prices. Don't forget eBay. For example, if your run is 9' or less, you can buy something like this: http://tinyurl.com/4x3a3na which is pre-assembled with connectors. But it's $10 with free shipping. Cut the connectors off and install your own. Also, consider the modern Poly coax LMR400. It's larger in diameter but connectors for it are easy to get. It's losses at the high frequencies are on par with the fancier stuff and a whole lot cheaper. If the size is not a turn off for your particular application: http://tinyurl.com/3k86rvm Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stuart Hutchison" <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au>
Subject: Permanet Splicing RG400
Date: Aug 03, 2011
G'day Bob, I assume RG58 TNC/BNC connectors are fine for RG142, +142 or 400 coax? I don't understand why TNC connectors are listed at Aircraft Spruce for between $35 and $62 each, yet even silver-plated types are avaliable here in Australia (from RS) for around $10-15. What am I missing please? Cheers, Stu ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2011
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Batteries: To fly . . . or not to fly . . . that
IS the question. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 03, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Permanet Splicing RG400
At 06:35 AM 8/3/2011, you wrote: >G'day Bob, > >I assume RG58 TNC/BNC connectors are fine for RG142, +142 or 400 coax? Yes. > I don't understand why TNC connectors are listed at Aircraft > Spruce for between $35 and $62 each, yet even silver-plated types > are avaliable here in Australia (from RS) for around $10-15. What > am I missing please? Not a thing. There are coax connectors that are essentially interchangeable but built and qualified to different specifications . . . which for our purposes doesn't matter. Prices on identical connectors can vary widely too depending on the supplier's volume, expertise and target customer base. When we added those connectors to our wesite catalog many moons back, I think I bought them in 100 lots for something on the order of 95 cents and sold them for $2. The exact came connector was commonly offered at $3.50 in single lots. But if you bought a mil-qualified connector in small quantities, it could be pretty breathtaking without being any 'better' for what you're needing to do. http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=7131150 http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=7131003 Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 04, 2011
From: Matthew Schumacher <schu(at)schu.net>
Subject: Questions about protecting the 4AWG wire in a remote
battery installation. List, I looked through the book and searched the archives, but can't find an answer to my question: I want to mount the battery under the seat and the contactors on the firewall. In order to do this I'll need to run 4awg wire about 6 feet. From the master contactor I'll run another 4awg wire to the starter contactor and I'll terminate my panel feed directly onto the master contactor. I don't see any circuit protection in any of the drawings, but it feels wrong to not have a wire that large running that distance unprotected. Would be be ok to build a fusible link out of some 6awg wire that is only 3" long or would that cause to much voltage drop for the starter? Another option is to mount the contactors under the seat with the battery and run a 10awg wire up to the panel and install a fusible link on that wire. Is that more reasonable? I really don't want to mount a breaker under the seat because I don't want any critical part of the electrical system hidden from the pilot's view. I suppose I could mount a fuse, but I'm concerned that a fuse failure can take out my panel. Perhaps a slow blow fuse? Thanks, schu ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Slaughter" <william_slaughter(at)att.net>
Subject: Questions about protecting the 4AWG wire in a remote
battery installation.
Date: Aug 04, 2011
The master and starter contactors do not need to be in the same place. Most rear battery RVs have the master contactor at the rear right next to the battery and the starter contactor up on the firewall. That's the way I'm doing my RV-8. Alternator output and "panel feed" wire terminate on the "hot" side of the starter contactor. William -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matthew Schumacher Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 1:00 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Questions about protecting the 4AWG wire in a remote battery installation. List, I looked through the book and searched the archives, but can't find an answer to my question: I want to mount the battery under the seat and the contactors on the firewall. In order to do this I'll need to run 4awg wire about 6 feet. From the master contactor I'll run another 4awg wire to the starter contactor and I'll terminate my panel feed directly onto the master contactor. I don't see any circuit protection in any of the drawings, but it feels wrong to not have a wire that large running that distance unprotected. Would be be ok to build a fusible link out of some 6awg wire that is only 3" long or would that cause to much voltage drop for the starter? Another option is to mount the contactors under the seat with the battery and run a 10awg wire up to the panel and install a fusible link on that wire. Is that more reasonable? I really don't want to mount a breaker under the seat because I don't want any critical part of the electrical system hidden from the pilot's view. I suppose I could mount a fuse, but I'm concerned that a fuse failure can take out my panel. Perhaps a slow blow fuse? Thanks, schu ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Questions about protecting the 4AWG wire in a
remote battery installation. At 12:59 PM 8/4/2011, you wrote: > >List, > >I looked through the book and searched the archives, but can't find an >answer to my question: > >I want to mount the battery under the seat and the contactors on the >firewall. In order to do this I'll need to run 4awg wire about 6 feet. > From the master contactor I'll run another 4awg wire to the starter >contactor and I'll terminate my panel feed directly onto the master >contactor. > >I don't see any circuit protection in any of the drawings, but it feels >wrong to not have a wire that large running that distance unprotected. You're right. That's why battery contactors are at the battery . . . else they are not 'battery contactors'. >Would be be ok to build a fusible link out of some 6awg wire that is >only 3" long or would that cause to much voltage drop for the starter? No . . . battery disconnect at the battery is a crash safety idea . . . we don't run always-hot, high-current feeders right of the battery in TC aircraft. >Another option is to mount the contactors under the seat with the >battery and run a 10awg wire up to the panel and install a fusible link >on that wire. Why not take the bus feeder off the starter contactor? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: VHF Nav/GS Duplexer
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
Date: Aug 05, 2011
I've been wondering lately about how I should provide glideslope input for my GNS430. I saw several duplexing modules at the aeromart, but many of them had a threaded connection instead of the usual BNC turn and lock. Are those threaded connectors available, or should I look for a unit with BNC all around? The other option that I've considered is making or buying a dedicated antenna, though I'm not sure where I would put it. Would the elements need to be parallel to the wingspan? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2011
Subject: Re: VHF Nav/GS Duplexer
From: "DeWitt (Dee) Whittington" <dee.whittington(at)gmail.com>
Jared, We had the same dilemma for our 430W. At Oshkosh I too looked at the diplexers in the AeroMart. I was not impressed. What I saw were three bags holding 5 units each for $19 per bag. All appeared to have been removed from Cessnas or Pipers, etc. Yes, super cheap, but I had no real idea whether they would work properly and many had screw fittings or a combination of screw and BNC. We wanted all BNC. So I just went ahead and bought a new Comant CI-507 from Aircraft Spruce (11-17980) and got free freight and a discount. My situation is different from most. I have three partners in building a Sportsman, so we split all costs four ways. Dee On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Jared Yates wrote: > > > > I've been wondering lately about how I should provide glideslope input for > my GNS430. I saw several duplexing modules at the aeromart, but many of them > had a threaded connection instead of the usual BNC turn and lock. Are > those threaded connectors available, or should I look for a unit with BNC > all around? > > The other option that I've considered is making or buying a dedicated > antenna, though I'm not sure where I would put it. Would the elements need > to be parallel to the wingspan? > > -- DeWitt Whittington www.VirginiaFlyIn.org Building Glasair Sportsman with 3 partners ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net>
Subject: Re: VHF Nav/GS Duplexer
Date: Aug 05, 2011
Jared, << I've been wondering lately about how I should provide glideslope input for my GNS430. I saw several duplexing modules at the aeromart, but many of them had a threaded connection instead of the usual BNC turn and lock. Are those threaded connectors available, or should I look for a unit with BNC all around? >> The threaded connectors are available (see Mouser.com) but come in several different types. You really need to know exactly what you need to get the right one. Much better is to just get the BNC type. Chief seems to offer the lowest price for the Comant CI-507 at about $130. << The other option that I've considered is making or buying a dedicated antenna, though I'm not sure where I would put it. Would the elements need to be parallel to the wingspan? >> I put mine at the center top of my windshield, forward of a cross tube. Don't even notice it is there when seated. While certainly optimum to have the dipole parallel to the wing, it shouldn't be critical. Even end-on (parallel to the fuselage) where dipoles have a null there should be enough signal bouncing around to be functional. Try it and see. Or better yet, for $6.00 in parts plus a small box and short piece of coaxial cable make your own diplexer. See the attached diagram. Tom Kuffel ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: VHF Nav/GS Duplexer
At 10:00 AM 8/5/2011, you wrote: > >I've been wondering lately about how I should provide glideslope >input for my GNS430. I saw several duplexing modules at the >aeromart, but many of them had a threaded connection instead of the >usual BNC turn and lock. Are those threaded connectors available, >or should I look for a unit with BNC all around? The ones that are threaded but same size as BNC are probably TNC connectors . . . there threaded cousin to the bayonet lock BNC. The connectors are readily available. The diplexers are offered by several companies. Here's one by RA Miller Emacs! and offered by Aircraft Spruce for under $100 http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/av570coup.php The DIY splitter suggested by Jim Wier was posted by Tom. This can be even simpler to make than what Jim suggested. I've uses a BNC "T" adapter Emacs! which feeds the VOR signal through the top of the 'tee'. Then there's an RF game to be played off the branch with the 10pF capacitor and a couple of BNC chassis connectors Emacs! and some long 4-40 screws. You end up with a more compact and robust version of Jim's coupler with a minimum of disruption of the VOR feedline characteristics. I've got a program working out at Hawker-Beech. I'll see if I can get a prototype over to the RF lab and optimize the dimesions of the 10 pF capacitor wiring. Jim called out exactly 1" overall lead length for the capacitor. That's because the capacitor COMBINED with the inductance of the leads forms a series resonant turned circuit that picks off the glide slope signal for routing it to the GS receiver. Once those dimensions are developed, I can publish a good DIY project. Or you can build what Jim has already suggested. It works too. >The other option that I've considered is making or buying a >dedicated antenna, though I'm not sure where I would put it. Would >the elements need to be parallel to the wingspan? Generally, yes. What kind of airplane are we talking about? GS signals on approach are VERY strong. The antenna can suffer huge indignities of missed optimization and still get you down the pipe in good shape. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2011
Subject: Re: VHF Nav/GS Duplexer
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
Thanks everyone, I'm intrigued by the DIY duplex option, assuming that I can find the parts. I especially like Bob's idea of a design that minimizes losses to the VHF signal, since that was my only motivation for a separate GS antenna. The airplane is a Bearhawk, which is a tailwheel tube and fabric fuselage with a aluminum skin from the instrument panel to the nose bowl. On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 9:24 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 10:00 AM 8/5/2011, you wrote: > > > > > I've been wondering lately about how I should provide glideslope input for > my GNS430. I saw several duplexing modules at the aeromart, but many of them > had a threaded connection instead of the usual BNC turn and lock. Are > those threaded connectors available, or should I look for a unit with BNC > all around? > > > The ones that are threaded but same size as BNC are > probably TNC connectors . . . there threaded cousin > to the bayonet lock BNC. The connectors are readily > available. > > The diplexers are offered by several companies. Here's > one by RA Miller > > [image: Emacs!] > > and offered by Aircraft Spruce for under $100 > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/av570coup.php > > > The DIY splitter suggested by Jim Wier was posted by > Tom. This can be even simpler to make than what Jim > suggested. I've uses a BNC "T" adapter > [image: Emacs!] > > which feeds the VOR signal through the top > of the 'tee'. Then there's an RF game to be > played off the branch with the 10pF capacitor > and a couple of BNC chassis connectors > > [image: Emacs!] > > and some long 4-40 screws. You end up with > a more compact and robust version of Jim's > coupler with a minimum of disruption of the > VOR feedline characteristics. > > I've got a program working out at Hawker-Beech. > I'll see if I can get a prototype over to the > RF lab and optimize the dimesions of the > 10 pF capacitor wiring. > > Jim called out exactly 1" overall lead length > for the capacitor. That's because the capacitor > COMBINED with the inductance of the leads forms > a series resonant turned circuit that picks off > the glide slope signal for routing it to the > GS receiver. > > Once those dimensions are developed, I can > publish a good DIY project. Or you can build > what Jim has already suggested. It works too. > > > The other option that I've considered is making or buying a dedicated > antenna, though I'm not sure where I would put it. Would the elements need > to be parallel to the wingspan? > > > Generally, yes. What kind of airplane are we > talking about? > > GS signals on approach are VERY strong. The > antenna can suffer huge indignities of missed > optimization and still get you down the pipe > in good shape. > > ** > > ** Bob . . . > //// > (o o) > ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== > < Go ahead, make my day . . . > > < show me where I'm wrong. > > ================================ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: VHF Nav/GS Duplexer
At 08:50 PM 8/5/2011, you wrote: >Thanks everyone, I'm intrigued by the DIY duplex option, assuming >that I can find the parts. I especially like Bob's idea of a design >that minimizes losses to the VHF signal, since that was my only >motivation for a separate GS antenna. The airplane is a Bearhawk, >which is a tailwheel tube and fabric fuselage with a aluminum skin >from the instrument panel to the nose bowl. Okay, Cessna put tens of thousands of GS antennas just above the compass centered on the windshield. A simple dipole 17" long fed in the center with 50 ohm coax will perform quite well. We had a fancy, clear plastic molded housing that contained a copper foil strip. A short length of RG174 (itty-bitty 50 ohm coax) fed the center and took the feed-line under the windshield and upholstery trim. I think it spliced onto RG58 to take the signal on to the GS receiver. If you can manage RG400's larger diameter, it would be the material of choice for getting the GS signal down to your panel mounted receiver. I proposed a methodology for fabricating a GS antenna in the chapter on antennas . . . but forget the toroid cores . . . they add no observable value. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 2011
From: Matthew Schumacher <schu(at)schu.net>
Subject: Re: Questions about protecting the 4AWG wire in
a remote battery installation. On 08/05/2011 03:59 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > >> Another option is to mount the contactors under the seat with the >> battery and run a 10awg wire up to the panel and install a fusible link >> on that wire. > > Why not take the bus feeder off the starter contactor? > > > Bob . . . Bob, Seems like your solution is to put the battery contactor near the battery, and the starter contactor on the firewall with the bus feeder and alternator wired to that. That is what I'll do, but doesn't that leave the 4awg wire between the two contactors unprotected or will the battery contactor fail before the wire does? Are you saying that this wire doesn't need to be protected because it can be switched off by the pilot? Thanks for the answers, schu ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2011
Subject: Re: VHF Nav/GS Duplexer
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
Would an antenna like that need a balun, and what kind of gap would be acceptable between the two elements? On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:36 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com**> > > > At 08:50 PM 8/5/2011, you wrote: > >> Thanks everyone, I'm intrigued by the DIY duplex option, assuming that I >> can find the parts. I especially like Bob's idea of a design that minimizes >> losses to the VHF signal, since that was my only motivation for a separate >> GS antenna. The airplane is a Bearhawk, which is a tailwheel tube and >> fabric fuselage with a aluminum skin from the instrument panel to the nose >> bowl. >> > > Okay, Cessna put tens of thousands of GS antennas just > above the compass centered on the windshield. A simple > dipole 17" long fed in the center with 50 ohm coax > will perform quite well. > > We had a fancy, clear plastic molded housing that > contained a copper foil strip. A short length of RG174 > (itty-bitty 50 ohm coax) fed the center and took the > feed-line under the windshield and upholstery trim. I think > it spliced onto RG58 to take the signal on to the > GS receiver. > > If you can manage RG400's larger diameter, it would > be the material of choice for getting the GS signal > down to your panel mounted receiver. > > I proposed a methodology for fabricating a GS antenna > in the chapter on antennas . . . but forget the toroid > cores . . . they add no observable value. > > > Bob . . . > //// > (o o) > ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======**== > < Go ahead, make my day . . . > > < show me where I'm wrong. > > ==============================**== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: VHF Nav/GS Duplexer
At 08:00 AM 8/6/2011, you wrote: >Would an antenna like that need a balun, Technically, it is "best" . . . practically, you wouldn't see any difference in performance if it did not have one. > and what kind of gap would be acceptable between the two elements? . . . minimum practical. Actually, you can fabricate a nifty antenna just from coax cable. In this case, you clean off the outer jacket of your feedline about 11". If it's a double shielded coax, strip of the outer layer of shield too. Pull center conductor out of the remaining shield as illustrated here: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/shldwire/shldwire.html Stretch the center conductor and remaining braid out into a dipole and trim each to 9.5" per side. Glue to 1/4" wood or plastic dowel 17" long. Just spot it in a few places to fixture it on the dowel. Then put pieces of heat shrink over each leg of the dipole to "dress it up". This technique eliminates the process-sensitive and never pretty junction between antenna elements an the feedline. It's all one piece. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2011
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Re: VHF Nav/GS Duplexer
Bob... A little inconsistency here...I think...the length of the antenna elements and the dowel don't match. Did you mean to cut the shield and center conductor to 8.5 inches long each and use a 17 inch dowel, or to use a dowel 19 inches long for the 9.5" element length? Or leave two inches of the center of the coax unattached and hanging at something like a "Y"? Or one inch of each element hanging over each end of the dowel? Harley ----------------------------------------------------------------- > . . . minimum practical. Actually, you can fabricate > a nifty antenna just from coax cable. > > In this case, you clean off the outer jacket of your > feedline about 11". If it's a double shielded coax, > strip of the outer layer of shield too. > > Pull center conductor out of the remaining shield > as illustrated here: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/shldwire/shldwire.html > > Stretch the center conductor and remaining > braid out into a dipole and trim each to 9.5" > per side. > > Glue to 1/4" wood or plastic dowel 17" long. Just > spot it in a few places to fixture it on the dowel. > Then put pieces of heat shrink over each > leg of the dipole to "dress it up". > > This technique eliminates the process-sensitive > and never pretty junction between antenna elements > an the feedline. It's all one piece. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2011
Subject: Re: VHF Nav/GS Duplexer
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
Awesome, that sounds like the best solution so far! I have some hefty spanwise steel structure up at the top of the windshield. In this application should I be worried about being close to those? On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 9:20 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com**> > > At 08:00 AM 8/6/2011, you wrote: > >> Would an antenna like that need a balun, >> > > Technically, it is "best" . . . practically, > you wouldn't see any difference in performance > if it did not have one. > > > and what kind of gap would be acceptable between the two elements? >> > > . . . minimum practical. Actually, you can fabricate > a nifty antenna just from coax cable. > > In this case, you clean off the outer jacket of your > feedline about 11". If it's a double shielded coax, > strip of the outer layer of shield too. > > Pull center conductor out of the remaining shield > as illustrated here: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/**articles/shldwire/shldwire.**html> > > Stretch the center conductor and remaining > braid out into a dipole and trim each to 9.5" > per side. > > Glue to 1/4" wood or plastic dowel 17" long. Just > spot it in a few places to fixture it on the dowel. > Then put pieces of heat shrink over each > leg of the dipole to "dress it up". > > This technique eliminates the process-sensitive > and never pretty junction between antenna elements > an the feedline. It's all one piece. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Questions about protecting the 4AWG wire in
a remote battery installation. >Bob, > >Seems like your solution is to put the battery contactor near the >battery, and the starter contactor on the firewall with the bus feeder >and alternator wired to that. Yes . . . >That is what I'll do, but doesn't that leave the 4awg wire between the >two contactors unprotected or will the battery contactor fail before the >wire does? Are you saying that this wire doesn't need to be protected >because it can be switched off by the pilot? Exactly. These 'fat wires' are part of the power distribution between major components and do not represent an operational hazard for overload. The artfully installed fat wire will not suffer a hard fault that puts the wire at risk . . . it generally is 'self clearing' and burns away the edge of any former where the grommet has failed. In a type certificated airplane, FAR23.1357 allows fat-wires to go 'un protected'. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/FAA/Part23_electrical_A.pdf Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: VHF Nav/GS Duplexer
At 08:41 AM 8/6/2011, you wrote: >Bob... > >A little inconsistency here...I think...the length of the antenna >elements and the dowel don't match. > >Did you mean to cut the shield and center conductor to 8.5 inches >long each and use a 17 inch dowel, or to use a dowel 19 inches long >for the 9.5" element length? > >Or leave two inches of the center of the coax unattached and hanging >at something like a "Y"? Or one inch of each element hanging over >each end of the dowel? No, stretch the whole thing out on a dowel of appropriate length . . . in this case the 9.5" was a typo, should be 8.5" and 17" overall. Thanks for the heads-up! Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: VHF Nav/GS Duplexer
At 08:43 AM 8/6/2011, you wrote: >Awesome, that sounds like the best solution so far! I have some >hefty spanwise steel structure up at the top of the windshield. In >this application should I be worried about being close to those? Technically, yes. Ignore them for now. Space away as far as sensibilities and craftsmanship will allow and give it a try. Close proximity of the conductive structure will electrically lengthen the antenna . . . so after installation the purist would trim to new resonance after installation. In this case, I don't think it's going to make much operational difference. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: RG-400 source
I made a good buy on a wad of RG400 cable assemblies. I'll be offering RG-400 cut to length with connectors installed for $1.50/ft. Some long lengths (~10' or longer) may be supplied with a mated pair of SMA crimp connnectors to splice two shorter lengths. Connector choices will include BNC cable male, BNC cable female, SMA cable male and SMA cable female. Will let the List know when the product is listed on the website catalog. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fulgham" <folgie(at)comcast.net>
Subject: All you can eat buffets
Date: Aug 06, 2011
Subject: All you can eat buffets All you can eat buffets - HYSTERICAL, especially the part about Indian food. His humor is off the wall! This is the epitome of a good humorous speech without a bit of nasty language from a comedian. Talk about using his body as a visual aid! Great! ALL-YOU-CAN-EAT BUFFETS: click below. http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/1B4AZI -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 2011
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: All you can eat buffets
Please do not send me items which do not pertain to aircraft electronics or electrical systems. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 08/06/2011 06:27 PM, Fulgham wrote: > *Subject:* All you can eat buffets > > > All you can eat buffets - HYSTERICAL, especially the part about Indian food. > > His humor is off the wall! This is the epitomeof a good humorous speech > without a bit of nasty language from a comedian. Talk about using his > body as a visual aid! Great! > > *ALL-YOU-CAN-EAT BUFFETS: click below.* > > http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/1B4AZI > > > -- > > > > FREE Animations for your email - by IncrediMail! Click Here! > <http://www.incredimail.com/?id=619263&did=10500&ppd=2723,201107241428,9,1,603980311805460181&rui=125498726&sd 110806> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 07, 2011
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: All you can eat buffets
Sorry list, I intended to send this to the person who sent it to me. Apologies to all. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 08/06/2011 11:46 PM, rayj wrote: > > Please do not send me items which do not pertain to aircraft electronics > or electrical systems. > > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > > On 08/06/2011 06:27 PM, Fulgham wrote: >> *Subject:* All you can eat buffets >> >> >> All you can eat buffets - HYSTERICAL, especially the part about Indian >> food. >> >> His humor is off the wall! This is the epitomeof a good humorous speech >> without a bit of nasty language from a comedian. Talk about using his >> body as a visual aid! Great! >> >> *ALL-YOU-CAN-EAT BUFFETS: click below.* >> >> http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/1B4AZI >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> FREE Animations for your email - by IncrediMail! Click Here! >> <http://www.incredimail.com/?id=619263&did=10500&ppd=2723,201107241428,9,1,603980311805460181&rui=125498726&sd 110806> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 07, 2011
From: Paul McAllister <l_luv2_fly(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Pressure transducer for airspeed
Hi All,=0A=0ACould some offer a recommendation for a suitable pressure tran sducer to measure airspeed.- The intended use is to read is with an ADC / Pic Micro along with a few other parameters so I can automate my cowl open ing / closing, and perhaps a few other functions such as gear up warning. =0A=0AThanks,- Paul=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 07, 2011
From: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: Pressure transducer for airspeed
Silicon Microstructures Inc. makes a nice sensor that can be used for this. The SM5882 is available in 0.6 and 1.5 psi full scale versions (depending on what the maximum speed you want to measure). These are fully conditioned sensors with both analog and digital output. You would use the differential version which you can use directly with the pitot and static inputs to get IAS. Well, not IAS from the pressure sensor. You get the difference between pitot and static pressures that can be converted into IAS with the following equations: Airspeed = ((5.0 * (((((PitotPressure - StaticPressure) / 1013.25) + 1) ^ (2.0 / 7.0)) - 1.0)) ^ 0.5) * 661.48 (where the pressure units are millibar) or Airspeed = ((5.0 * (((((PitotPressure - StaticPressure) / 14.69) + 1) ^ (2.0 / 7.0)) - 1.0)) ^ 0.5) * 661.48 (where the pressure units are psi) If you want to save a bit of money and do all the A/D yourself they also make the SM5652, although the calibration accuracy is not quite as good as the above sensors. To get TAS you would have to have some way of measuring outside pressure (static pressure) separately. They do make a version (SM5822) that will do that. Dick Tasker Paul McAllister wrote: > Hi All, > > Could some offer a recommendation for a suitable pressure transducer to measure airspeed. The intended use is to read is with an ADC / Pic Micro along with a few other parameters so I can automate > my cowl opening / closing, and perhaps a few other functions such as gear up warning. > > Thanks, Paul > * > > > * -- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 07, 2011
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Pressure transducer for airspeed
Might also be worth looking at the line of sensors similar to the MPX5050DP-ND that I used for an instrument vacuum sensor. They have ones suitable for airspeed if a 0 to 5 volt output is adequate or the microprocessor already has an ADC in it. Sparkfun.com is also a good resource for such projects. Ken On 8/7/2011 8:08 PM, Richard E. Tasker wrote: > > > Silicon Microstructures Inc. makes a nice sensor that can be used for > this. The SM5882 is available in 0.6 and 1.5 psi full scale versions > (depending on what the maximum speed you want to measure). These are > fully conditioned sensors with both analog and digital output. You would > use the differential version which you can use directly with the pitot > and static inputs to get IAS. > > Well, not IAS from the pressure sensor. You get the difference between > pitot and static pressures that can be converted into IAS with the > following equations: > Airspeed = ((5.0 * (((((PitotPressure - StaticPressure) / 1013.25) + 1) > ^ (2.0 / 7.0)) - 1.0)) ^ 0.5) * 661.48 (where the pressure units are > millibar) > or > Airspeed = ((5.0 * (((((PitotPressure - StaticPressure) / 14.69) + 1) ^ > (2.0 / 7.0)) - 1.0)) ^ 0.5) * 661.48 (where the pressure units are psi) > > If you want to save a bit of money and do all the A/D yourself they also > make the SM5652, although the calibration accuracy is not quite as good > as the above sensors. > > To get TAS you would have to have some way of measuring outside pressure > (static pressure) separately. They do make a version (SM5822) that will > do that. > > Dick Tasker > > Paul McAllister wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> Could some offer a recommendation for a suitable pressure transducer >> to measure airspeed. The intended use is to read is with an ADC / Pic >> Micro along with a few other parameters so I can automate my cowl >> opening / closing, and perhaps a few other functions such as gear up >> warning. >> >> Thanks, Paul >> * >> >> >> * > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 2011
From: David <ainut(at)knology.net>
Subject: Re: Pressure transducer for airspeed
I use the AMD 494/495. Freescale also has some newer models that are even better, which I'm using for MAP, etc. David M. Paul McAllister wrote: > Hi All, > > Could some offer a recommendation for a suitable pressure transducer > to measure airspeed. The intended use is to read is with an ADC / Pic > Micro along with a few other parameters so I can automate my cowl > opening / closing, and perhaps a few other functions such as gear up > warning. > > Thanks, Paul > * > > > * -- If you're an American, just say NO to the Obamanation, to socialism, and get rid of Soros. ...democracy and a republic can function only in a firm partnership with morality and religion. -- John Adams. Indeed. Same should be said for ANY type of gubmnt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: De-sulfating Question
> >Are you familiar with some of the companies touting their battery >de-sulfaters? Is this process a hoax, or what is the story behind >these things? I don't find any questions or answers in the >archives, but this enquiring mind wants to know. My earlier reply to this was somewhat hurried . . . I think I was on my way out the door. The art, science and alchemy of battery restoration is as old as the battery itself. I recall seeing ads in the back of Popular Mechanics when I was a kid advertising various pills, potions and notions that would "make your battery last 10x longer" or "bring new life to a dead battery." When somebody asked why folks who know more about batteries than anybody (the manufacturers) didn't offer such products, the standard saw was, "Well . . . those guys just want to sell more batteries . . . so they design-in a certain service life. It just would not do to have an off-the-shelf battery routinely deliver 10 years of service. That would put them out of the battery business." Of course, hundreds of honorable suppliers of goods and services put that myth to rest by being the very best at what they knew how to do with every intention of capturing the majority of market share. It doesn't compute that a super-whippy manufacturer of batteries doesn't go for the gold. Which brings up another thought: If you do have the ultimate success in any process or product, then to protect your $millions$ in profits, you spend some portion of those $millions$ to patent and then hire lawyers to defend those patents. So, upon getting the first whiff of the odor of snake oil one of the first places to go look is at freepatentsoline.com or some similar service. I've found several devices of one flavor or another which propose to recover a dead battery, make good batteries last longer, etc. Of course, being awarded a patent only says your idea is different from all others similarly recorded in the patent office . . . in no way is it an endorsement of the idea's functionality. As best I can determine, de-sulfaters are the latest pass at parting the uneducated consumer from his/her money. But that doesn't keep them from being very popular topics on websites and Internet forums. Nearly all sources will yield some story about having "recovered" a trashed battery. But to date, I've see NO data that compares the recovered battery with performance of the new battery in terms of energy stored. Given that batteries in our airplanes are picked, maintained and replaced to achieve certain energy storage design goals, the idea of stroking an abused or otherwise poor performing battery with the idea that I'm going to fly it some more . . . . well, you get the picture. Now, if this is a battery for your bass boat or riding lawn mower, feel free to experiment to your own satisfaction . . . and do let us know what, if anything, you discover. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: De-sulfating Question
Date: Aug 08, 2011
I am of the mind that when a acid chemical battery de-sulfates, its lead plate compound changes chemistry, and sloughs off to the cell floor. Once in this condition or state, it is non-reversible. The only way that I know to maintain a wet chemical acid battery for it's longest life is to never let it get to the "state" where the lead plates essentially decompose; sulfates. Thus, the need to keep it charged always above a certain level. Mostly in the dark past, we attach trickle charges and the like to the battery and then walk away from it and forget to time the charging period. Thus, it over-charges soon and that causes life shorting states also. Now, comes along the small battery charges called "Maintainers". Bob and others have spoken of these chargers many times. They are semi-smart in that they will charge like a standard trickle charger to some set voltage potential and then, stop the charge and "float" a voltage potential at some set level, usually a tad under the trickle stop point. And, there they will happily maintain that float voltage on the battery forever. Assuming that no cell in the battery is corrupted, this method probably will give you max life from a battery. Personally, after every flight, I connect a maintainer to the battery and it stays there until the next flight. My Gill and Concord batteries seem to last forever..... ....2 cents of comment... Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 8:32 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: De-sulfating Question Are you familiar with some of the companies touting their battery de-sulfaters? Is this process a hoax, or what is the story behind these things? I don't find any questions or answers in the archives, but this enquiring mind wants to know. My earlier reply to this was somewhat hurried . . . I think I was on my way out the door. The art, science and alchemy of battery restoration is as old as the battery itself. I recall seeing ads in the back of Popular Mechanics when I was a kid advertising various pills, potions and notions that would "make your battery last 10x longer" or "bring new life to a dead battery." When somebody asked why folks who know more about batteries than anybody (the manufacturers) didn't offer such products, the standard saw was, "Well . . . those guys just want to sell more batteries . . . so they design-in a certain service life. It just would not do to have an off-the-shelf battery routinely deliver 10 years of service. That would put them out of the battery business." Of course, hundreds of honorable suppliers of goods and services put that myth to rest by being the very best at what they knew how to do with every intention of capturing the majority of market share. It doesn't compute that a super-whippy manufacturer of batteries doesn't go for the gold. Which brings up another thought: If you do have the ultimate success in any process or product, then to protect your $millions$ in profits, you spend some portion of those $millions$ to patent and then hire lawyers to defend those patents. So, upon getting the first whiff of the odor of snake oil one of the first places to go look is at freepatentsoline.com or some similar service. I've found several devices of one flavor or another which propose to recover a dead battery, make good batteries last longer, etc. Of course, being awarded a patent only says your idea is different from all others similarly recorded in the patent office . . . in no way is it an endorsement of the idea's functionality. As best I can determine, de-sulfaters are the latest pass at parting the uneducated consumer from his/her money. But that doesn't keep them from being very popular topics on websites and Internet forums. Nearly all sources will yield some story about having "recovered" a trashed battery. But to date, I've see NO data that compares the recovered battery with performance of the new battery in terms of energy stored. Given that batteries in our airplanes are picked, maintained and replaced to achieve certain energy storage design goals, the idea of stroking an abused or otherwise poor performing battery with the idea that I'm going to fly it some more . . . . well, you get the picture. Now, if this is a battery for your bass boat or riding lawn mower, feel free to experiment to your own satisfaction . . . and do let us know what, if anything, you discover. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 2011
From: "Scott B." <chemeagle(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Antenna ground plane and nearby cables
I have a composite aircraft (Glastar) with batteries in tailcone. #2 cables run to the starter and a #8 wire from the alternator run along a channel through the baggage compartment. I want to install a quarter wave antenna (and associated ground plane) right underneath all those cables. Is this a stupid thing to do? Scott ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 2011
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: De-sulfating Question
From my experience a desulfater might help a bit on old flooded cell tractor and generator batteries if used occasionally. However even a small desulfater seems to cause my AGM batteries to vent. I can actually hear the valve puff out gas every few minutes. Ken On 8/8/2011 11:32 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> Are you familiar with some of the companies touting their battery >> de-sulfaters? Is this process a hoax, or what is the story behind >> these things? I dont find any questions or answers in the archives, >> but this enquiring mind wants to know. > > My earlier reply to this was somewhat hurried . . . I think > I was on my way out the door. > > The art, science and alchemy of battery restoration > is as old as the battery itself. I recall seeing ads > in the back of Popular Mechanics when I was a kid > advertising various pills, potions and notions that > would "make your battery last 10x longer" or "bring > new life to a dead battery." > > When somebody asked why folks who know more about > batteries than anybody (the manufacturers) didn't > offer such products, the standard saw was, "Well . . . > those guys just want to sell more batteries . . . so > they design-in a certain service life. It just would > not do to have an off-the-shelf battery routinely deliver > 10 years of service. That would put them out of the battery > business." > > Of course, hundreds of honorable suppliers of goods > and services put that myth to rest by being the very > best at what they knew how to do with every intention > of capturing the majority of market share. It > doesn't compute that a super-whippy manufacturer of > batteries doesn't go for the gold. > > Which brings up another thought: If you do have > the ultimate success in any process or product, > then to protect your $millions$ in profits, you > spend some portion of those $millions$ to patent > and then hire lawyers to defend those patents. > > So, upon getting the first whiff of the odor > of snake oil one of the first places to go look > is at freepatentsoline.com or some similar > service. I've found several devices of one flavor > or another which propose to recover a dead battery, > make good batteries last longer, etc. Of course, > being awarded a patent only says your idea is > different from all others similarly recorded > in the patent office . . . in no way is it an > endorsement of the idea's functionality. > > As best I can determine, de-sulfaters are the > latest pass at parting the uneducated consumer > from his/her money. But that doesn't keep them > from being very popular topics on websites and > Internet forums. Nearly all sources will yield > some story about having "recovered" a trashed > battery. > > But to date, I've see NO data that compares > the recovered battery with performance of the > new battery in terms of energy stored. Given > that batteries in our airplanes are picked, > maintained and replaced to achieve certain energy > storage design goals, the idea of stroking an > abused or otherwise poor performing battery > with the idea that I'm going to fly it some more > . . . . well, you get the picture. > > Now, if this is a battery for your bass boat > or riding lawn mower, feel free to experiment > to your own satisfaction . . . and do let > us know what, if anything, you discover. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: De-sulfating Question
At 12:07 PM 8/8/2011, you wrote: I am of the mind that when a acid chemical battery de-sulfates, its lead plate compound changes chemistry, and sloughs off to the cell floor. Once in this condition or state, it is non-reversible. The only way that I know to maintain a wet chemical acid battery for it's longest life is to never let it get to the "state" where the lead plates essentially decompose; sulfates. Thus, the need to keep it charged always above a certain level. Another claim made by some battery rejuvenation processes is based on idea that large crystals of sulfate (low surface area) can be broken up by hitting the crystals with pulses of RF energy (in the 5 MHz range as I recall). Mostly in the dark past, we attach trickle charges and the like to the battery and then walk away from it and forget to time the charging period. Thus, it over-charges soon and that causes life shorting states also. That worked with some success on wet batteries where water lost to disassociation can be replaced. Now, comes along the small battery charges called "Maintainers". Bob and others have spoken of these chargers many times. They are semi-smart in that they will charge like a standard trickle charger to some set voltage potential and then, stop the charge and "float" a voltage potential at some set level, usually a tad under the trickle stop point. And, there they will happily maintain that float voltage on the battery forever. Assuming that no cell in the battery is corrupted, this method probably will give you max life from a battery. While I was still full time at HBC, I had an array of SVLA batteries that I used for sundry instrumentation tasks. 2Ah up to 32 Ah devices. ALL were happily maintained in parallel on one maintainer. My 32 Ah beast still tested at over 25 Ah for a 5A load when I scrapped it. It was over ten years old. Personally, after every flight, I connect a maintainer to the battery and it stays there until the next flight. My Gill and Concord batteries seem to last forever..... ....2 cents of comment... More than 2 cents . . . a report on a recipe for success. Another demonstrated recipe for success is the dead-battery recovery (conditioning charge) that Concorde calls out in their manuals. Do a constant current charge at 1/10C and continue to charge until the battery has been above 15.5 (or 31.0) volts for 4 hours. This is an obvious 'overcharge' condition that may recover a battery to minimum capacity for service . . . but shorten the overall life of the battery. But then, without the conditioning charge the battery is scrap anyhow. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: De-sulfating Question
At 07:19 PM 8/8/2011, you wrote: > > From my experience a desulfater might help a bit on old flooded > cell tractor and generator batteries if used occasionally. However > even a small desulfater seems to cause my AGM batteries to vent. I > can actually hear the valve puff out gas every few minutes. Wow . . . if it's driving water off, that's a high energy process. I've not encountered any devices claiming to de-sulfate a battery that were anything close to those energy levels. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Antenna ground plane and nearby cables
At 06:19 PM 8/8/2011, you wrote: > > >I have a composite aircraft (Glastar) with batteries two batteries? Why so many in this class airplane? > . . . in tailcone. #2 cables run to the starter and >a #8 wire from the alternator Alternator feed wire would normally not run in this bundle. You can tie it to the starter contactor under the cowl. > . . . run along a channel through the baggage compartment. >I want to install a quarter wave antenna (and associated >ground plane) right underneath all those cables. > >Is this a stupid thing to do? No, antennas on the outside of the airplane sitting on an existing groundplane (skin or tubular structure) or manufactured ground- plane are not influenced by adjacent wires on the other side of the groundplane. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna ground plane and nearby cables
From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net>
Date: Aug 10, 2011
> No, antennas on the outside of the airplane > sitting on an existing groundplane (skin > or tubular structure) or manufactured ground- > plane are not influenced by adjacent wires > on the other side of the groundplane. > Bob, I mounted my xpdr antenna on a 6" diameter ground plane inside my composite plane. The tail strobe wire is about 12" away from the antenna. Would you expect problems with this installation? John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=349111#349111 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Antenna ground plane and nearby cables
At 09:15 AM 8/10/2011, you wrote: > > > > No, antennas on the outside of the airplane > > sitting on an existing groundplane (skin > > or tubular structure) or manufactured ground- > > plane are not influenced by adjacent wires > > on the other side of the groundplane. > > > > >Bob, I mounted my xpdr antenna on a 6" diameter ground plane inside >my composite plane. The tail strobe wire is about 12" away from the >antenna. Would you expect problems with this installation? Define "problems". There will be an effect. Whether strong enough to offer an observable difference is subject to much conjecture and discussion . . . but never quantified without competent analysis, accurately measured experimentation or both. Not trying to be obtuse . . . even the 'big guys' know few facts that go to your question. Education is expensive and they're so busy fighting big fires that mundane details like performance anomalies in antenna installations take a distant back seat. This has been known to come back and 'bite' in expensive and embarrassing ways later. I could expound on those war-stories for hours. Bottom line is, try it. Make notes of situations where ATC says your transponder is intermittent or unreadable under conditions where you believe it shouldn't be a problem. Competent observation and connection of the dots will out-weigh any amount of supposition/conjecture on the forums. But if it worries you, then do the legacy hang- it-out-the-bottom installation that has proven to be the best-we-know-how-to-do. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com>
Subject: Around the world again...
Date: Aug 10, 2011
Hi there everyone, A couple of years ago two mates of mine, Mike Blyth and James Pitman, flew from Johannesburg, South Africa to Oshkosh, Wisconsin, USA and then continued around the world back to SA. The flight was an epic and record breaking one involving two 20+hour crossings over the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. The flew around the world in 38 days in a light sport aircraft that they had designed and built, with the aim of selling these as kits or ready built aircraft. Their aircraft, called the Sling, is a 2 seater, low wing, all aluminium aircraft powered by a Rotax 912 engine which proved its reliability over the long over water stretches of the trip. Two years later, and some 27 orders of aircraft later, they and their new business partner, Jean Dasonville, are now doing it all again; this time from west to east - but now in their new 4 seater, christened, 'Silver Bullit', which is an enlarged version of their 2 seater, comfortably seating 4. They took off from Johannesburg on Sunday, headed for Reunion Island, with their 450 litre tanks (the whole leading edges of each wing are fuel tanks) filled to the brim. They landed safely and will take off on their next leg tomorrow morning at 4am SA time- this time a 24 hour flight to Colombo, Sri Lanka. They had planned to stop off at the Maldives on the way but there is only 80 octane MOGAS available in the Maldives so they are going to try and push through. Its an epic adventure; iced wings on the first night and now extended legs because of fuel availability.. If you would like to read more about it have a look at http://www.airplanefactory.co.za/sling4atw_news.asp Jay Hyde South Africa ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ HH Enterprises * Aircraft assembly, repair, wiring and avionics * Flight instruction * General and Electrical Engineering services (NHD Elec Eng, BTech Elec Eng, GDE ELec Eng) * Great dinner parties and conversation * General adventuring, climbing, kayaking and living Blog: www.rawhyde.wordpress.com Cel: 083 300 8675 Email: jay(at)horriblehyde.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2011
From: Matthew Schumacher <schu(at)schu.net>
Subject: Wire size question for Z13/8.
Bob, I'm looking at Z13/8 getting ready to order wire. I'm looking at the wire sizes and noticed that the drawing calls for 20awg for the starter contactor switch and 22awg for the battery contactor switch. Why is this? Is it because the starter contactor draws more current? Or perhaps the run is longer? Thanks, schu ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Stop nuts one terminal studs?
From: "messydeer" <messydeer(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Aug 11, 2011
Hi! I have a 3/16 to 1/4" studs on my battery, battery contactor, starter contactor and ground posts. Some came with simple jam-type nuts with a split ring washer. What type of nuts and washers should I use FWF? I've got MS21042-3 and -4 that would work for some. Others are metric and wold need a separate lock washer of sorts. Thanks! -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=349196#349196 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wire size question for Z13/8.
From: Bob Meyers <bobmeyers(at)meyersfamily.org>
Date: Aug 11, 2011
Different Bob, but yes, the starter contractor draws much more than the battery contractor. Typical draw of a starter contractor is around five amps vs. less than an amp for a battery contractor. Bob Meyers Flying my Sonex N982SX - Building log at http://n982sx.com Sent from my iPad On Aug 11, 2011, at 12:44 PM, Matthew Schumacher wrote: > > Bob, > > I'm looking at Z13/8 getting ready to order wire. I'm looking at the > wire sizes and noticed that the drawing calls for 20awg for the starter > contactor switch and 22awg for the battery contactor switch. Why is > this? Is it because the starter contactor draws more current? Or > perhaps the run is longer? > > Thanks, > schu > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wire size question for Z13/8.
From: Bob Meyers <bobmeyers(at)meyersfamily.org>
Date: Aug 11, 2011
Seems like my iPad decided I didn't know how to spell and decided to change 'contactor' into 'contractor'. I hate it when that happens. Bob Meyers Flying my Sonex N982SX - Building log at http://n982sx.com Sent from my iPad On Aug 11, 2011, at 1:59 PM, Bob Meyers wrote: > > Different Bob, but yes, the starter contractor draws much more than the battery contractor. Typical draw of a starter contractor is around five amps vs. less than an amp for a battery contractor. > > Bob Meyers > > Flying my Sonex N982SX - Building log at http://n982sx.com > > Sent from my iPad > > On Aug 11, 2011, at 12:44 PM, Matthew Schumacher wrote: > >> >> Bob, >> >> I'm looking at Z13/8 getting ready to order wire. I'm looking at the >> wire sizes and noticed that the drawing calls for 20awg for the starter >> contactor switch and 22awg for the battery contactor switch. Why is >> this? Is it because the starter contactor draws more current? Or >> perhaps the run is longer? >> >> Thanks, >> schu >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2011
Subject: Re: Stop nuts one terminal studs?
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Dan, If your metric contactor studs are 6mm X 1.0, the 21042-4 will go right on. I use them on Rotax vibration dampers to mount the radiator on my plane and they work just fine. FWIW, Rick Girard On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 12:56 PM, messydeer wrote: > > Hi! > > I have a 3/16 to 1/4" studs on my battery, battery contactor, starter > contactor and ground posts. Some came with simple jam-type nuts with a split > ring washer. What type of nuts and washers should I use FWF? I've got > MS21042-3 and -4 that would work for some. Others are metric and wold need a > separate lock washer of sorts. > > Thanks! > > -------- > Dan > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=349196#349196 > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: More FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt)?
From: "cjay" <cgfinney(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Aug 11, 2011
"If you have a fuse/breaker/switch system, you know where every part comes from and what spares will cost you for repairs. If the VP system gets a cold, your airplane is down while the factory repairs it. It uses software you didn't write, parts you didn't buy and couldn't replace even if you had them . . . 'cause you don't understand it. " The VP system tells you exactly and precisely what device/avionics/electronic is surging, overloading, shorting, etc. Much more information than a fuse or breaker provides. Great system for monitoring, tweaking, and measuring. Never heard of a VP system going back to the factory, but I suppose it happens. What do you do when a radio/EFIS/autopilot goes bad if you don't send it back to the factory? Or maybe modern electronics violates your principle of why we choose to build our own plane? You must be flying with analogue/vacuum gauges. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=349223#349223 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: More FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt)?
At 07:27 PM 8/11/2011, you wrote: "If you have a fuse/breaker/switch system, you know where every part comes from and what spares will cost you for repairs. If the VP system gets a cold, your airplane is down while the factory repairs it. It uses software you didn't write, parts you didn't buy and couldn't replace even if you had them . . . 'cause you don't understand it. " The VP system tells you exactly and precisely what device/avionics/electronic is surging, overloading, shorting, etc. Much more information than a fuse or breaker provides. In 45 years of working in general aviation and in 25 years as a pilot, I've never felt the need for knowing such things in flight . . . Great system for monitoring, tweaking, and measuring. Never heard of a VP system going back to the factory, but I suppose it happens. If you are curious about such things, you can easily monitor/measure any number of parameters of interest with commercial off-the-shelf data acquisition systems that are not integral to the power distribution system. But believe me, after pouring over a hundred hours of data where "nothing is happening" I think you'll find other more interesting things to do with your time. You're worrying about things that are first rare and secondly do not represent a hazard to flight. What do you do when a radio/EFIS/autopilot goes bad if you don't send it back to the factory? Or maybe modern electronics violates your principle of why we choose to build our own plane? You must be flying with analogue/vacuum gauges. The airplane does not fall out of the sky when a radio quits, nor should it fall out of the sky if some article of power distribution equipment quits. That's what failure mode effects analysis and Plan-B is all about. You reposition a couple of switches and continue flight to a comfortable arrival . . . and it doesn't take one byte of software to do it. We were doing it decades before glass screens and micro-controllers came along. It's easy to get enamored of doing a thing simply because it can be done. Just tonight I had to struggle through the magic panel on a new radio in my truck. All I ever wanted was on-off, band, tune and volume. But this thing stores a qazillion frequencies, five channels of two bands, plays flash drives, plays CDs and has an aux audio input with half octave equalizers and features I can't even name much less tell you what they do for me. Hat dancing over the array of 20 buttons will, no doubt, do some whippy things. It took me more than a minute to get my grandson's favorite radio station located and on speakers. I think your electrical system is a similar situation with exceedingly simple design goals that do not get 'better cause you can do more'. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: One Noisy Mag
From: "stearman456" <warbirds(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Aug 12, 2011
This past week I decided to tackle some radio noise in my '49 Aeronca Champ. Although I can transmit just fine (Narco Comm 111) there was always some background ignition noise when receiving (you need to be about only 15 miles away to hear an ATIS clearly). But when you switch over to just the right mag (Bendix mags) the noise goes away. The noise is ignition noise, it varies directly with the rpm, and I believe it's radiated noise as it varies with the radio volume control. If you disconnect the P lead from the left mag's filter (Lone Star Aviations Magneto filters) the noise goes away completely and the radio is perfect. The P leads were shielded wire, probably 16 gauge, and the shields were grounded to the mag cases. Checking the mag switch (AAF A-7 type) I found that the shields were also grounded at the switch. "Aha..." says I. "exactly what Bob said never to do." So I reached in with a pair of side cutters and cut the connections to the shields. Rolled her back outside, started her up and... no change - still a noisy left mag. Deciding that the P lead itself must be chafed or the shielding was open somewhere I removed both leads and made up two new ones from 18 gauge shielded wire, and carefully added a second wire (not just a pigtail) to connect the shielding to the mag cases on the respective mags. Installed them last night, rolled her back outside and... no change! Same quiet right mag/noisy left mag. I couldn't see it being the switch itself but even so I swapped the leads on the switch and the noise followed the lead, so it's not the switch. The only difference I can come up with between the mags is the left mag has the impulse coupling on it (re-read your article about mag switches in the EAA magazine, Bob. Lots of good info there - thanks) but that should have anything at all to do with it. I'm stumped. Should I perhaps use heavier wire for the P leads, or is this an actual mag problem? Thanks in advance. Dan warbirds(at)shaw.ca Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=349246#349246 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: One Noisy Mag
At 09:10 AM 8/12/2011, you wrote: This past week I decided to tackle some radio noise in my '49 Aeronca Champ. Although I can transmit just fine (Narco Comm 111) there was always some background ignition noise when receiving (you need to be about only 15 miles away to hear an ATIS clearly). But when you switch over to just the right mag (Bendix mags) the noise goes away. The noise is ignition noise, it varies directly with the rpm, and I believe it's radiated noise as it varies with the radio volume control. good point If you disconnect the P lead from the left mag's filter (Lone Star Aviations Magneto filters) the noise goes away completely and the radio is perfect. If I read this experiment correctly, the left mag filter is still wired to the p-connection on the mag itself . . . but the wire going to the magneto switch is disconnected from the other end? The P leads were shielded wire, probably 16 gauge, and the shields were grounded to the mag cases. Checking the mag switch (AAF A-7 type) I found that the shields were also grounded at the switch. "Aha..." says I. "exactly what Bob said never to do." Not so much a problem for noise. But it provides a second ground path between crankcase and airframe that parallels all other grounds . . . there is a potential for burning your p-lead wire as described in the 'Connection. So I reached in with a pair of side cutters and cut the connections to the shields. Rolled her back outside, started her up and... no change - still a noisy left mag. So this experiment has the shielded wire grounded a the magneto (probably to the filter mounting screw) at one end and to the GRD terminal of the magneto switch at the other end? Deciding that the P lead itself must be chafed or the shielding was open somewhere I removed both leads and made up two new ones from 18 gauge shielded wire, and carefully added a second wire (not just a pigtail) to connect the shielding to the mag cases on the respective mags. Okay Installed them last night, rolled her back outside and... no change! Same quiet right mag/noisy left mag. I couldn't see it being the switch itself but even so I swapped the leads on the switch and the noise followed the lead, so it's not the switch. The only difference I can come up with between the mags is the left mag has the impulse coupling on it (re-read your article about mag switches in the EAA magazine, Bob. Lots of good info there - thanks) but that should have anything at all to do with it. Good deduction I'm stumped. Should I perhaps use heavier wire for the P leads, or is this an actual mag problem? No, actual size of the wires is unimportant. 24AWG would 'function'. The general rule of thumb for operational wires (not instrumentation) under the cowl is 20AWG or heavier . . . for mechanical robustness. What we may be witnessing is the innate perversity of shielded wires . . . at least in the eyes of many builders. Shielding is 99.9% effective in breaking the electro-static coupling mode and about 1% effective in breaking a radiated coupling mode depending on the frequencies involved. EXCEPTION: Plug wires with shields connected to ground at both ends behave more like transmission lines . . . like your coax from antenna to radio. In this case, there is considerable attenuation of the electro-static coupling of a fast-rise high- voltage spark pulse. Further, they break the wire's ability to be an efficient antenna. Modern plug wires will have resistance wire as the center conductor which has little effect on spark energy but really whacks the wire's performance as an antenna. This is the ONE place where shielding is indicated for both coupling modes . . . if you put an effective RFI filter on a plug wire, the plug wouldn't fire! The shields behave more as an 'enclosure' since the wires are short and the shields grounded a very low-impedance ground (crankcase). The filters on both p-leads that break the radiated coupling mode before the trash gets out onto the p- leads. So if your noise goes away when the engine is run without a p-lead connected to the filter . . . then a reasonable deduction is that the filter is not doing its job. The fact that noise goes away with a p-lead disconnected also says your plug wires are good. I've never personally seen a filter go bad but they're a spares item in most inventories so it must happen now and then. Try swapping the filters between mags . . . If this makes a difference as to which mag is noisy, you might want to replace both. One tired ol' filter going t-u may be a portent of things to come for the other one as well. Good detective work! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: One Noisy Mag
From: "stearman456" <warbirds(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Aug 12, 2011
Hi Bob, Thanks for the help. If I read this experiment correctly, the left mag filter is still wired to the p-connection on the mag itself . . . but the wire going to the magneto switch is disconnected from the other end? Yes, the P lead was disconnected from the filter, so when the engine was running with no P lead to the switch the filter was still connected to the mag itself. So this experiment has the shielded wire grounded a the magneto (probably to the filter mounting screw) at one end and to the GRD terminal of the magneto switch at the other end? The P lead wire itself is grounded at the mag switch (the switch itself has a ground wire to the fuselage frame) but the shielding for the P lead is only grounded at the mag case to one of the screws. I'll swap the filters around tonight and let you know how that goes. Really appreciate the help. Dan warbirds(at)shaw.ca [/i] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=349285#349285 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: One Noisy Mag
From: "stearman456" <warbirds(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Aug 12, 2011
Hi Bob, That was it - I swapped the mag filters and now I have a noisy right hand mag and a quiet left hand one. Don't know why I didn't think of that, though they're not all that old. Must have had a dud right out of the box because it's always been like that and I installed those filters about five years ago, but... that happens sometimes. Thanks for the help - sure appreciate it. Dan warbirds(at)shaw.ca Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=349300#349300 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: One Noisy Mag
At 12:04 AM 8/13/2011, you wrote: > >Hi Bob, > >That was it - I swapped the mag filters and now I have a noisy right >hand mag and a quiet left hand one. Don't know why I didn't think >of that, though they're not all that old. Must have had a dud right >out of the box because it's always been like that and I installed >those filters about five years ago, but... that happens >sometimes. Thanks for the help - sure appreciate it. Pleased to be of service. You were getting close by yourself. The detective work was on point. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2011
From: <kesleyelectric(at)iowatelecom.net>
Subject: Z-13/8 inline fuse
Bob, I noticed that the latest revision of Z-13/8 calls out a 30 amp inline fuse between the battery contactor and the SD-8. In a previous post I found an explanation for the change, but am wondering what type of device would be used. A fuse holder with a couple of loose leads for an automotive type fuse or a firewall mounted single pole fuse holder with a small, round fuse. Any recommendations or supplier P/N appreciated. Tom Barter Avid Magnum - wiring ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fwd: current outstanding questions
From: Keith Ward <keithward1(at)bellsouth.net>
Date: Aug 13, 2011
> Here are a few questions from my buddy who is building an RV-10 and will be using Z13/8 for his all electric panel. He is trying to use zero or as few circuit breakers on the panel as possible. He will be using fuse blocks for the main and endurance buses, so most of the usual CBs will not be needed. Questions: > 1. "ALT FLD" wire protection z13/8: can that be a fuse or does it need to be a circuit breaker on the panel? > 2. Is it feasible to think someone could react fast enough on run away trim scenario to pull the circuit breaker before it ran its full course? If not - use fuse instead of CB? > 3. In z13/8, Can both shunts be hooked up to one ammeter? Would the shunt attached to the SD8 alternator indicate a load even if the aux alt switch was off? Suggestions for best way to proceed with only one ammeter? > 4.If your goal was to minimize as many warning lights, switches, and CBs on the panel, what would your short list be of these items to remain? Using Dynon Skyview that will be booted up prior to start-up that will have plenty of warnings to display. Thanks for the input. Keith ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2011
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Warning - New Bose Line Power Cables Only 3' Long!
Just a heads up to those installing or planning on installing Bose X or A20 Active NR headsets using the inline power jacks. Specifically these units: http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/shop_online/headphones/aviation_headsets/accessories/headset_installkit_acc.jsp They now come with only 3 feet of cable! Three years ago they came with 6 feet of cable and I thought at the time that 6 feet seemed a little short. Now 3 feet? What idiot penny pincher in Bose marketing decided "three feet should be plenty". Here's quote from the Bose web page above: "Three-foot wiring harness with six pin female connector allows for *placement in locations throughout aircraft*." WTF? On what planet will a 3-foot hardness reach "locations throughout the aircraft". That's just plain stupid. If these were third rate, el-cheapo headsets, I'd write it off to penny pinching, but for a >$1000 product that you then have to spend an additional $32 for an installation cable, cheaping out on the cable length is just simply unacceptable. I have the jacks mounted in the center of the RV-8, and the cables don't even reach to the righthand control console. What does Bose expect people to do; splice the wire? That's ridiculous! What would somebody installing in the back seats of a 4 or 6 place airplane do? Of course I wrote a scathing email to Bose Support just now. I'm sure they will write back with "for most of our customers, three feet is sufficient". Given this direction within Bose, I'd definitely consider the new Sennheiser S1 if I had to do it over again. Additionally, the Sennheiser's Bluetooth supports the A2DP, AVRCP STEREO profiles. The Bose A20's Bluetooth does NOT support stereo. It must have been the same marketing moron that dictated 3' cables that decided not to include stereo Bluetooth profiles. Unbelievable. Matt - Matt "Red Dawg" Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen" http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: 170+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap... ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: One Noisy Mag
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Aug 13, 2011
> Checking the mag switch (AAF A-7 type) I found that the shields were also grounded at the switch. "Aha!" says I. "exactly what Bob said never to do." So I reached in with a pair of side cutters and cut the connections to the shields Some magneto switches have a terminal labeled GND to which the shields are attached. This GND terminal is not an actual airframe ground. The shields need to be connected to this terminal in order for the switch to short out the P leads. The mag switch operation should be verified to be sure there is not an always hot mag. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=349351#349351 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: current outstanding questions
At 09:31 PM 8/13/2011, you wrote: > > > > Here are a few questions from my buddy who is building an RV-10 > and will be using Z13/8 for his all electric panel. He is trying > to use zero or as few circuit breakers on the panel as > possible. He will be using fuse blocks for the main and endurance > buses, so most of the usual CBs will not be needed. > >Questions: > > 1. "ALT FLD" wire protection z13/8: can that be a fuse or does it > need to be a circuit breaker on the panel? If he is using crowbar ov protection, a CB is called for . . . > > 2. Is it feasible to think someone could react fast enough on run > away trim scenario to pull the circuit breaker before it ran its > full course? If not - use fuse instead of CB? No > > > 3. In z13/8, Can both shunts be hooked up to one ammeter? Would > the shunt attached to the SD8 alternator indicate a load even if > the aux alt switch was off? Suggestions for best way to proceed > with only one ammeter? Put it on the SD-8 only. That's the one most useful for shedding loads in flight. You're never going to overload the main alternator. > > 4.If your goal was to minimize as many warning lights, switches, > and CBs on the panel, what would your short list be of these items > to remain? Using Dynon Skyview that will be booted up prior to > start-up that will have plenty of warnings to display. "Plenty" ought to be enough. I've been flying in TC aircraft for over 60 years that have zero 'warnings'. They have gages that give you the big picture and for nearly a century, it has been quite sufficient to let the pilot do the pilot-thing and be aware of the big picture. Engines and other systems have only become more reliable over the years while digital instrumentation has offered us ways to raise flags, flash lights, sound alarms and otherwise lull us to sleep in a cockpit that makes less demands. If you've got an electro-whizzy with warning features not included on a 1980 A-36 Bonanza, I suspect that will be "plenty". Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-13/8 inline fuse
At 04:53 PM 8/13/2011, you wrote: > >Bob, > >I noticed that the latest revision of Z-13/8 calls out a 30 amp >inline fuse between the battery contactor and the SD-8. In a >previous post I found an explanation for the change, but am >wondering what type of device would be used. A fuse holder with a >couple of loose leads for an automotive type fuse or a firewall >mounted single pole fuse holder with a small, round fuse. Any >recommendations or supplier P/N appreciated. NO GLASS CARTRIDGE FUSES. Use the MAX30 and companion holder available from any parts store. http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Fuses/Fuses/maxi.gif http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Fuses/Fuse_Holders/MaxiFuse_Holder.jpg Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Keith Ward <keithward1(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: current outstanding questions
Date: Aug 14, 2011
Bob, He is using the crowbar. Is there any reason that the CB should be on the panel or can it be placed out of sight? Thanks for the help! Keith On Aug 14, 2011, at 12:11 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > At 09:31 PM 8/13/2011, you wrote: >> >> >> > Here are a few questions from my buddy who is building an RV-10 and will be using Z13/8 for his all electric panel. He is trying to use zero or as few circuit breakers on the panel as possible. He will be using fuse blocks for the main and endurance buses, so most of the usual CBs will not be needed. >> >> Questions: >> > 1. "ALT FLD" wire protection z13/8: can that be a fuse or does it need to be a circuit breaker on the panel? > > If he is using crowbar ov protection, a CB is > called for . . . > >> > 2. Is it feasible to think someone could react fast enough on run away trim scenario to pull the circuit breaker before it ran its full course? If not - use fuse instead of CB? > > No > >> >> > 3. In z13/8, Can both shunts be hooked up to one ammeter? Would the shunt attached to the SD8 alternator indicate a load even if the aux alt switch was off? Suggestions for best way to proceed with only one ammeter? > > Put it on the SD-8 only. That's the one > most useful for shedding loads in flight. > You're never going to overload the main > alternator. > >> > 4.If your goal was to minimize as many warning lights, switches, and CBs on the panel, what would your short list be of these items to remain? Using Dynon Skyview that will be booted up prior to start-up that will have plenty of warnings to display. > > "Plenty" ought to be enough. I've been flying in TC > aircraft for over 60 years that have zero 'warnings'. > They have gages that give you the big picture and > for nearly a century, it has been quite sufficient > to let the pilot do the pilot-thing and be aware > of the big picture. > > Engines and other systems have only become more > reliable over the years while digital instrumentation > has offered us ways to raise flags, flash lights, > sound alarms and otherwise lull us to sleep in > a cockpit that makes less demands. > > If you've got an electro-whizzy with warning > features not included on a 1980 A-36 Bonanza, > I suspect that will be "plenty". > > > > Bob . . . > //// > (o o) > ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== > < Go ahead, make my day . . . > > < show me where I'm wrong. > > ================================ > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 14, 2011
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Warning - New Bose Line Power Cables Only
3' Long! At 10:54 AM 8/14/2011 Sunday, you wrote: > >Matt, >I gather from your purchase of Boses and your recommendation to look at Sennheisers, that you found Light Speed's Zulus not to your liking. Care to comment? > I need headsets and with the trade-in that LS will give me for my 25 yr old DC's, Zulu is attractive. > >Anybody else? > >Thanks >John Hi John, Don't get me wrong; I really, really like the Bose X and now A20 headsets. I am a stickler for audio performance and quality and the Bose headsets have delivered. Coupled with a PM3000 intercom and a high-end automobile entertainment system, the quality of experience is unlike anything you've ever heard in an airplane before. I had the Bose X headsets in the first RV-8 and really liked them. For the new RV-8, I've got the newer A20 models. While I haven't flown with the A20's yet, in bench top testing, they seem even better than the X's in terms of noise cancelling and audio performance. My only beef's with the new A20's are the lack of the Stereo Bluetooth profiles (that's stupid), and the fact that they only provide 3' of cable with the bulkhead in line power jacks (even stupider). 3' is ridiculous for a cut to fit installation. I heard back from Bose Support today. Here's what "Barry" from Bose had to say about the situation: "I'm sorry, the install kit only comes with a 3 foot cable. Longer cables are not available." Well, great. In summary, realistically, I guess for a future purchase I wouldn't let the completely inadequate cable lengths deter me from purchasing the A20's again. I noticed that it appears that the Sennheisers do NOT have an in line power option - you have to use batteries. As far as I'm concerned, that's a show stopper. Frankly, a bigger show stopper than the lack of stereo Bluetooth and bulkhead cable length issues with the Bose. I haven't listed to the Zulu's, so I can't speak directly to their physical or aural quality. But the fact is that if Zulu could charge $1000 for a set of headphones, they would. Enough said. Matt's $.02 - Matt "Red Dawg" Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen" http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: 170+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 14, 2011
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: current outstanding questions
On 8/13/2011 10:31 PM, Keith Ward wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Keith Ward > > >> Here are a few questions from my buddy who is building an RV-10 and will be using Z13/8 for his all electric panel. He is trying to use zero or as few circuit breakers on the panel as possible. He will be using fuse blocks for the main and endurance buses, so most of the usual CBs will not be needed. I am trying to do the same thing in my RV10 with a Z14. FWIW, below is what I did... >> Questions: >> 1. "ALT FLD" wire protection z13/8: can that be a fuse or does it need to be a circuit breaker on the panel? I have 2 for my 2 voltage regulators - req'd per Bob. >> 2. Is it feasible to think someone could react fast enough on run away trim scenario to pull the circuit breaker before it ran its full course? If not - use fuse instead of CB? I opted for the Safety Trim product which does 2 things; 1) limits trim activation to 3 seconds per switch actuation, 2) it includes a 3 position locking switch that offers Trim on, Trim off, and Trim reverse >> 3. In z13/8, Can both shunts be hooked up to one ammeter? Would the shunt attached to the SD8 alternator indicate a load even if the aux alt switch was off? Suggestions for best way to proceed with only one ammeter? >> 4.If your goal was to minimize as many warning lights, switches, and CBs on the panel, what would your short list be of these items to remain? Using Dynon Skyview that will be booted up prior to start-up that will have plenty of warnings to display. I have 4 CBs; 2 for volt regulators, 1 for the AP (as an emergency off), and 1 for the flaps (I was imagining a scenario where flap actuation at high speeds (why?) might blow a fuse and how I'd like to be able to reset it (flaps not absolutely required). Next to the CBs I have the Safety Trim switch and a switch for ADI battery backup. Mounted the fuse block on right hand side panel and had Flightline interiors put a cutout in the panel. A transparent panel will be velcro'd over the panel so it can be easily accessed. Good luck to your friend, Bill "ready to fly" Watson > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 14, 2011
Subject: Re: One Noisy Mag
From: Dennis Ramsey <doramsey(at)gmail.com>
Bob, should all aircraft have these magneto filters? What is the criteria and what is the recommended choice? On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 12:59 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com**> > > At 09:10 AM 8/12/2011, you wrote: > > This past week I decided to tackle some radio noise in my '49 Aeronca > Champ. Although I can transmit just fine (Narco Comm 111) there was alwa ys > some background ignition noise when receiving (you need to be about only 15 > miles away to hear an ATIS clearly). But when you switch over to just th e > right mag (Bendix mags) the noise goes away. The noise is ignition noise , > it varies directly with the rpm, and I believe it's radiated noise as it > varies with the radio volume control. > > good point > > If you disconnect the P lead from the left mag's filter (Lone Star > Aviation=92s Magneto filters) the noise goes away completely and the radi o is > perfect. > > If I read this experiment correctly, the left mag filter is still > wired to the p-connection on the mag itself . . . but the > wire going to the magneto switch is disconnected from the > other end? > > The P leads were shielded wire, probably 16 gauge, and the shields were > grounded to the mag cases. Checking the mag switch (AAF A-7 type) I foun d > that the shields were also grounded at the switch. "Aha..." says I. > "exactly what Bob said never to do." > > Not so much a problem for noise. But it provides a second > ground path between crankcase and airframe that parallels > all other grounds . . . there is a potential for burning your > p-lead wire as described in the 'Connection. > > > So I reached in with a pair of side cutters and cut the connections to th e > shields. Rolled her back outside, started her up and... no change - stil l a > noisy left mag. > > So this experiment has the shielded wire grounded > a the magneto (probably to the filter mounting screw) > at one end and to the GRD terminal of the magneto > switch at the other end? > > Deciding that the P lead itself must be chafed or the shielding was open > somewhere I removed both leads and made up two new ones from 18 gauge > shielded wire, and carefully added a second wire (not just a pigtail) to > connect the shielding to the mag cases on the respective mags. > > Okay > > Installed them last night, rolled her back outside and... no change! Sam e > quiet right mag/noisy left mag. I couldn't see it being the switch itsel f > but even so I swapped the leads on the switch and the noise followed the > lead, so it's not the switch. The only difference I can come up with > between the mags is the left mag has the impulse coupling on it (re-read > your article about mag switches in the EAA magazine, Bob. Lots of good i nfo > there - thanks) but that should have anything at all to do with it. > > Good deduction > > I'm stumped. Should I perhaps use heavier wire for the P leads, or is th is > an actual mag problem? > > No, actual size of the wires is unimportant. > 24AWG would 'function'. The general rule of thumb > for operational wires (not instrumentation) under > the cowl is 20AWG or heavier . . . for mechanical > robustness. > > What we may be witnessing is the innate perversity > of shielded wires . . . at least in the eyes of > many builders. Shielding is 99.9% effective in > breaking the electro-static coupling mode and about > 1% effective in breaking a radiated coupling mode > depending on the frequencies involved. > > EXCEPTION: Plug wires with shields connected to > ground at both ends behave more like transmission > lines . . . like your coax from antenna to radio. > In this case, there is considerable attenuation > of the electro-static coupling of a fast-rise high- > voltage spark pulse. Further, they break the > wire's ability to be an efficient antenna. Modern > plug wires will have resistance wire as the center > conductor which has little effect on spark energy > but really whacks the wire's performance as an antenna. > This is the ONE place where shielding is indicated for > both coupling modes . . . if you put an effective > RFI filter on a plug wire, the plug wouldn't fire! > The shields behave more as an 'enclosure' since the > wires are short and the shields grounded a very > low-impedance ground (crankcase). > > The filters on both p-leads that break the radiated > coupling mode before the trash gets out onto the p- > leads. So if your noise goes away when the engine is > run without a p-lead connected to the filter . . . > then a reasonable deduction is that the filter is not > doing its job. > > The fact that noise goes away with a p-lead > disconnected also says your plug wires are good. > > I've never personally seen a filter go bad but > they're a spares item in most inventories so it > must happen now and then. Try swapping the filters > between mags . . . If this makes a difference as > to which mag is noisy, you might want to replace > both. One tired ol' filter going t-u may be a > portent of things to come for the other one as > well. > > Good detective work! > > > Bob . . . > > =====**=================== ===========**= /www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> =====**=================== ===========**= =====**=================== ===========**= com/contribution> =====**=================== ===========**= > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 14, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: current outstanding questions
At 11:34 AM 8/14/2011, you wrote: > >Bob, > >He is using the crowbar. Is there any reason that the CB should be >on the panel or can it be placed out of sight? Depends on whether or not he wants the popped CB to be the annunciating feature for an ov shutdown. Suggest you review the philosophy and functionality of the crowbar ov protection system. The nature of the questions suggests that this system is not well understood. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 14, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: One Noisy Mag
At 04:01 PM 8/14/2011, you wrote: >Bob, should all aircraft have these magneto filters? What is the >criteria and what is the recommended choice? If you got an ignition system noise you don't like you may need a filter. It depends on the propagation mode of the particular installation. But if you have no noises, then there's no value in adding a filter. Nearly all aircraft flying ADF or Loran will have magneto p-lead filters. A portion of other aircraft will have them for reasons of demonstrated value. Many are flying happily without them. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fwd: current outstanding questions
From: Keith Ward <keithward1(at)bellsouth.net>
Date: Aug 14, 2011
Bill, Thanks for the reply. I'll pass it on my buddy. Keith On Aug 14, 2011, at 3:57 PM, Bill Watson wrote: > > On 8/13/2011 10:31 PM, Keith Ward wrote: >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Keith Ward >> >> >>> Here are a few questions from my buddy who is building an RV-10 and will be using Z13/8 for his all electric panel. He is trying to use zero or as few circuit breakers on the panel as possible. He will be using fuse blocks for the main and endurance buses, so most of the usual CBs will not be needed. > I am trying to do the same thing in my RV10 with a Z14. FWIW, below is what I did... >>> Questions: >>> 1. "ALT FLD" wire protection z13/8: can that be a fuse or does it need to be a circuit breaker on the panel? > I have 2 for my 2 voltage regulators - req'd per Bob. >>> 2. Is it feasible to think someone could react fast enough on run away trim scenario to pull the circuit breaker before it ran its full course? If not - use fuse instead of CB? > I opted for the Safety Trim product which does 2 things; 1) limits trim activation to 3 seconds per switch actuation, 2) it includes a 3 position locking switch that offers Trim on, Trim off, and Trim reverse >>> 3. In z13/8, Can both shunts be hooked up to one ammeter? Would the shunt attached to the SD8 alternator indicate a load even if the aux alt switch was off? Suggestions for best way to proceed with only one ammeter? >>> 4.If your goal was to minimize as many warning lights, switches, and CBs on the panel, what would your short list be of these items to remain? Using Dynon Skyview that will be booted up prior to start-up that will have plenty of warnings to display. > I have 4 CBs; 2 for volt regulators, 1 for the AP (as an emergency off), and 1 for the flaps (I was imagining a scenario where flap actuation at high speeds (why?) might blow a fuse and how I'd like to be able to reset it (flaps not absolutely required). Next to the CBs I have the Safety Trim switch and a switch for ADI battery backup. > > Mounted the fuse block on right hand side panel and had Flightline interiors put a cutout in the panel. A transparent panel will be velcro'd over the panel so it can be easily accessed. > > Good luck to your friend, > Bill "ready to fly" Watson > >> > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 14, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: One Noisy Mag
At 06:27 PM 8/14/2011, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Sorry to say, you won't find any aircraft flying LORAN these days. :) Yeah, too bad. A single receiver set up to receive both LORAN and GPS along with the appropriate filter software could have provided the ultimate navigation reference. GPS works good when there are thunderstorms and no sunspots, LORAN works good when GPS is degraded. Further, it was harder to jam and a whole lot less expensive to build and maintain. But then, folks who know more about airplanes than we do must know best. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Warning - New Bose Line Power Cables Only 3' Long!
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Aug 15, 2011
I needed new headsets and looked at the Zulu trade-up program. I figured that if Zulu was offering $400 for competitor's headsets, they must be good ones. Sometimes it is more a matter of personal preference. I bought the Telex Stratus 50 and like them for a very noisy environment. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=349496#349496 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Warning - New Bose Line Power Cables Only 3' Long!
From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net>
Date: Aug 15, 2011
After spending w-a-a-y too much time reading all the reveiws, opinions, and rants about A20's vs Zulu 2's, this is what's clear: A20's have better ANR, music sound quality, Zulu 2's have better blue tooth So I'm leaning toward the BeyerDynamic HS800 Digital because: They're newer and I'm enamored of the new. $100 kickback for my 25 yr old DC Panel mounts don't need ANY batteries Less than Bose and a wash with Zulu Joe Gores didn't make any sarcastic remarks about them.javascript:emoticon(':D') Now I just need to find someone who actually bought a pair. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=349528#349528 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Will servo run to outer position if PWM signal is missing?
From: "zwakie" <mz(at)cariama.nl>
Date: Aug 15, 2011
I am trying to troubleshoot an issue with my Navaid servo. Immediately upon engaging the servo, it will run the aileron to full left. I was wondering if this could be caused by the PWM signal missing, f.i. Because of a broken wire. Can anybody enlighten this knows-nothing-about-electrics guy please? -------- Marcel (Classic Tri-Gear PH-MZW - formerly G-BWON) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=349540#349540 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2011
From: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Will servo run to outer position if PWM signal
is missing? Are you using the Navaid instrument? Is it tracking a GPS course? Are you in the air or on the ground? It is probably commanding a turn and it will run the servo to the stop until it sees some results. Ed Holyoke On 8/15/2011 2:31 PM, zwakie wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "zwakie" > > I am trying to troubleshoot an issue with my Navaid servo. Immediately upon engaging the servo, it will run the aileron to full left. > > I was wondering if this could be caused by the PWM signal missing, f.i. Because of a broken wire. > > Can anybody enlighten this knows-nothing-about-electrics guy please? > > -------- > Marcel > (Classic Tri-Gear PH-MZW - formerly G-BWON) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=349540#349540 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Warning - New Bose Line Power Cables Only 3' Long!
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Aug 15, 2011
> Joe Gores didn't make any sarcastic remarks about them. That is because I have not heard of that brand. (':D') They do use batteries though. Their website says mignon batteries. Someone said that is French for AA batteries. It seems that most, if not all, ANR headsets require power, either batteries or ships power. The Telex Stratus 50 has the same features for less money at Aircraft Spruce. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=349576#349576 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: RG-141 Coax Cable Assemblies Now in Catalog
I received all the materials I need to make good on an offer a few weeks ago for a lower-cost alternative to RG400/RG-141. My offer is RG-141 coax at $1.50/ft with connectors already installed at no extra charge. See the Catalog of Merchandise and Services at http://aeroelectric.com Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Will servo run to outer position if PWM signal
is missing?
From: "zwakie" <mz(at)cariama.nl>
Date: Aug 16, 2011
Thanks Ed for your answer and questions. I am indeed using a Navaid servo. It gives me full aileron deflection in every situation, with and without tracking a flightplan, with and without following a heading, in the ground and in the air. As soon as the servo receives power it will give me full left aileron, no matter the situation and configuration of the head. I can think of two things causing this: (1) servo zero position sits outside the zone of travel, or (2) PWM signal not reaching the servo, e.g. broken a broken wire that carries the PWM signal. First scenario seems unlikely to me, because from a safety point of view I cannot believe the design would allow it to change from the set point. I am not trusting this assumption to be 100% true, so can't rule this option out. Second scenario is the one that I have no clue about, because I lack the technical knowledge. Hence my question whether it would be technically possible that the servo runs to an outer position if the PWM signal is missing. Because the servo sits under the passenger seat in a very confined area, before starting the juggle to remove the servo, I would like to know what happens if the PWM signal is missing (I guess I can run a parallel wire with the PWM signal to the servo, that at least would tell me that the servo indeed receices the signal, right?) -------- Marcel (Classic Tri-Gear PH-MZW - formerly G-BWON) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=349604#349604 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2011
From: <rd2(at)dejazzd.com>
Subject: 24 VDC to 20 VDC power supply/converter
Hi all, We need to power a Lenovo X60 tablet with charts in a certified aircraft with 24 VDC el. system. The 110 VAC OEM power supply calls for 20 VDC, 3.25 A output (65 W). We ordered from a web site a power supply that was listed as 12-14 VDC input (besides worldwide AC voltage), but received a product able to handle only 9-15 VDC input, with no further help from the merchant (dinodirect.com). An internet search for the right power supply turned up unsuccessful. Can anyone direct me to a source or suggest a different solution? Rumen ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2011
Subject: Re: 24 VDC to 20 VDC power supply/converter
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
Try these folks: http://www.igo.com/ Some of their power supplies are designed to handle the old jacks on airliners, which I think were 24v. On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 1:37 PM, wrote: > > Hi all, > > We need to power a Lenovo X60 tablet with charts in a certified aircraft > with 24 VDC el. system. The 110 VAC OEM power supply calls for 20 VDC, 3.25 > A output (65 W). > > We ordered from a web site a power supply that was listed as 12-14 VDC > input (besides worldwide AC voltage), but received a product able to handle > only 9-15 VDC input, with no further help from the merchant ( > dinodirect.com). An internet search for the right power supply turned up > unsuccessful. > > Can anyone direct me to a source or suggest a different solution? > > Rumen > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 16, 2011
Subject: Re: 24 VDC to 20 VDC power supply/converter
Good Afternoon Jared, Not sure about other airlines, but the power plugs for passenger use were set to supply 16 volts! The idea was that they were not convenient to use for anything other than the computers of the day. Many things have changed since I became unemployed and that may be one of them. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 8/16/2011 1:41:11 P.M. Central Daylight Time, email(at)jaredyates.com writes: Try these folks: _http://www.igo.com/_ (http://www.igo.com/) Some of their power supplies are designed to handle the old jacks on airliners, which I think were 24v. On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 1:37 PM, <_rd2(at)dejazzd.com_ (mailto:rd2(at)dejazzd.com) > wrote: (mailto:rd2(at)dejazzd.com) > Hi all, We need to power a Lenovo X60 tablet with charts in a certified aircraft with 24 VDC el. system. The 110 VAC OEM power supply calls for 20 VDC, 3.25 A output (65 W). We ordered from a web site a power supply that was listed as 12-14 VDC input (besides worldwide AC voltage), but received a product able to handle only 9-15 VDC input, with no further help from the merchant (_dinodirect.com_ (http://dinodirect.com/) ). An internet search for the right power supply turned up unsuccessful. Can anyone direct me to a source or suggest a different solution? Rumen ========== -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2011
From: Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com>
Subject: Splicing Into Existing GPS Serial
I have the need to splice into an existing GPS Serial Out wire on my 430W to facilitate a run to the new ACK E-04 GPS Serial In. I've read the Aeroelectric article on solder lap splices here: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Solder_Lap_Splicing/Solder_Lap_Splices.html. I am wondering if a similar technique can be used when you don't have two "free ends". Is it ok to strip a .3" section of the existing wire and then lap solder the new splice wire to it following the above technique? If so, what it the best way to cover the lap splice as heat shrink could not be placed around the existing wire run in this case? Silicon tape or something? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Fisher Paul A." <FisherPaulA(at)johndeere.com>
Date: Aug 16, 2011
Subject: 24 VDC to 20 VDC power supply/converter
Couldn't you use something like this: http://www.amazon.com/Power-Bright-ML400-24-Watt-Inverter/dp/B000NP0MXC and the normal AC power adapter for the laptop? Im sure there is a more elegant solution, but for $38USD this seems pretty easy. - Paul -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rd2(at)dejazzd.com Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 12:37 Subject: AeroElectric-List: 24 VDC to 20 VDC power supply/converter Hi all, We need to power a Lenovo X60 tablet with charts in a certified aircraft with 24 VDC el. system. The 110 VAC OEM power supply calls for 20 VDC, 3.25 A output (65 W). We ordered from a web site a power supply that was listed as 12-14 VDC input (besides worldwide AC voltage), but received a product able to handle only 9-15 VDC input, with no further help from the merchant (dinodirect.com). An internet search for the right power supply turned up unsuccessful. Can anyone direct me to a source or suggest a different solution? Rumen ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Splicing Into Existing GPS Serial
At 02:02 PM 8/16/2011, you wrote: > > >I have the need to splice into an existing GPS Serial Out wire on my >430W to facilitate a run to the new ACK E-04 GPS Serial In. I've >read the Aeroelectric article on solder lap splices here: >http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Solder_Lap_Splicing/Solder_Lap_Splices.html. > >I am wondering if a similar technique can be used when you don't >have two "free ends". Is it ok to strip a .3" section of the >existing wire and then lap solder the new splice wire to it >following the above technique? If so, what it the best way to cover >the lap splice as heat shrink could not be placed around the >existing wire run in this case? >Silicon tape or something? some kind of tape would work. I think I'd cut the existing cable so that you could handle the junction as three wires take advantage of the neater outcome for using heat shrink. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: E6000 on plexi
At 06:47 PM 8/16/2011, you wrote: > >Greetings listers, > >Has anyone used E 6000 on plexiglass? I'm wondering if the solvent >will cause any damage or crazing to the plastic. > >Thanks in advance to any info. There are several versions of E6000 . . . one is flammable, the other is not. What's your proposed application? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2011
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: RG142 coax offer
I've spent some time today sorting through about #40 pounds of RG-142 coax cable assemblies. I've updated the coax assembly offer on the website to include a wider range of no-extra-charge- connectors. I've also listed a no-connectors segment, 11+ feet long for $10.00. That's less than $1.00/ft for "the good stuff". Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Navaid Servo
Date: Aug 16, 2011
Marcel: Are you using the Navaid control head with it and do you have your servo set up correctly on the ground. Using the Navaid control head requires manual adjustments (as opposed to electronic)and set up tasks. Check the manual for servo and control head adjustments and read and re-read it carefully. I had some confusion about some of the tasks that were best clarified by someone familiar with the system. Unfortunately Navaid no longer exists but there are still many folks who have them in their aircraft so you may be in luck. Before I finished my panel Trio Avionics had come out with a new digital control head that worked with the three wire Navaid servo so I ditched the old analog Navaid control head for an EZ Pilot (cost almost as much for the control head as the entire Navaid system but definitely worth it). I have everything set up and working properly on the ground but still experience a slight problem with my Navaid servo. When I engage the servo in flight I get an initial one-time excursion to the left (left wing down ~20 degrees) before things settle out and start working properly. Before I started using my EZ Pilot Chuck, at Trio Avionics, suggested I send in my Navaid servo for a tune up. I did that and, for a very reasonable fee, Trio performed some magic that cleaned up the slop in the mechanicals of the servo. However, when they tested the servo they found a common problem in the electronics. In talking with Chuck he mentioned one of the components, a diode if I recall correctly, can sometimes cause the excursion that I experience. Unfortunately he couldn't fix it. Which brings me to a question I have for the list....does anyone know who made the Navaid servos and are there any drawings/specs/schematics available for it? Is there anyone or any company that still makes or repairs these servos? If so please let us know, the servos are pretty rugged but they don't last forever and I would like to get rid of the excursion in mine. Thanks Dean RV-6A N197DM Flying since 2008 ------------Original Message ------------- Subject: Will servo run to outer position if PWM signal is missing? From: "zwakie" <mz(at)cariama.nl> I am trying to troubleshoot an issue with my Navaid servo. Immediately upon engaging the servo, it will run the aileron to full left. I was wondering if this could be caused by the PWM signal missing, f.i. because of a broken wire. Can anybody enlighten this knows-nothing-about-electrics guy please? Marcel (Classic Tri-Gear PH-MZW - formerly G-BWON) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2011
From: James Robinson <jbr79r(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: battery charger
Hi Bob=0AI was looking for the info on the battery chargers and I must not have saved it.- It seems you recommended one available from WalMart that was a good value=0AJim=0A-=0AJames Robinson=0AGlasair lll N79R=0ASpanish Fork UT U77=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "Robert L. N uckolls, III" =0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matro nics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 5:27 PM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-L L. Nuckolls, III" =0A=0AI've spent some tim e today sorting through about #40 pounds=0Aof RG-142 coax cable assemblies. I've updated the coax assembly=0Aoffer on the website to include a wider r ange of no-extra-charge-=0Aconnectors.=0A=0AI've also listed a no-connector s segment, 11+ feet long for=0A$10.00.=0A=0AThat's less than $1.00/ft for " =- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle ======== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 16, 2011
From: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Navaid Servo
Howdy Dean, I've got the same setup in my 6A and experienced the same excursion. I reset some of the parameters in the Trio and it mostly went away. Been a long time and I don't remember exactly what it was, but it seems like there was a couple of settings for activity and sensitivity. Anyway, I tweaked it a couple of times and test flew it a couple of times and cleared it up. If I engage the servo to track to a waypoint, it still does a small excursion and then lines up. I think it has something to do with the sensitivity. Even if you are close to the centerline of the course, it does a large correction to get you exactly on the centerline and, naturally, overshoots. I usually just set it to heading mode while I'm pointed the right direction and engage the servo. It doesn't do any initial roll when I do it that way. It once got very weird and tried to turn the airplane upside down when I engaged it. I had to re-install the firmware to get it straight. The guys at Trio said that it happens, rarely. Apparently it has to do with shutting the power off at the exact millisecond that it is writing parameters to memory and it gets corrupted. Always a good idea to do a test engagement in good visibility before you count on it in the clouds. Marcel, Dean is right about the manual setup on the Navaid. It's been a long time since I messed with it, so I can't be very specific about the procedure. You really need the manual. Do you have it? You also have to verify that the wires don't need to be reversed. If I understand it right, the servo doesn't sense arm position. Everything comes from the head, so if the head thinks that it is turning, it will command full opposite aileron until it thinks that it is level. So if there is no roll, or roll in the wrong direction, the head will go right on commanding roll. I don't know for sure, but I don't think that the head is putting out the pwm signal that you think it should. I believe that it basically just runs the servo motorone direction or the other until it thinks the airplane is wings level and/or tracking the nav source.If the initial setup isn't done right, it will act just as you are experiencing. Pax, Ed Holyoke On 8/16/2011 7:28 PM, DEAN PSIROPOULOS wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" > > > Marcel: > > Are you using the Navaid control head with it and do you have your servo set > up correctly on the ground. Using the Navaid control head requires manual > adjustments (as opposed to electronic)and set up tasks. Check the manual for > servo and control head adjustments and read and re-read it carefully. I had > some confusion about some of the tasks that were best clarified by someone > familiar with the system. Unfortunately Navaid no longer exists but there > are still many folks who have them in their aircraft so you may be in luck. > > Before I finished my panel Trio Avionics had come out with a new digital


July 16, 2011 - August 17, 2011

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