AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-lh

August 27, 2012 - September 19, 2012



      outputs behind the panel just before the connection to the engine monitor so
      I know that the wires are good all the way to the monitor.  That way I will
      know what the monitor is reading.  And I will know where the problem is
      located in case of an error in the temp reading.
      
      
      Bill 
      
      .
      
        _____  
      
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Harley Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: Meter for reading Millivolts
I'm not familiar with that one, but looking at the picture, I see an input for K thermocouples...if you plug your thermocouple into those you should get an actual temperature reading (in centigrade, it seems). Maybe you are having a problem when you try to read them as millivolts using the probes on the meter instead? Even the J thermocouples will work in the K thermocouple input, just be a little bit off. Harley _____ On 8/27/2012 1:36 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: Harley, I didn't see that one in the store. They had this one http://www.harborfreight.com/ac-dc-digital-multimeter-37772.html This is the one I bought and with it I get the nonsense readings that I describe in my previous msg. I wonder is there a trick to the testing to get accurate readings? Bill _____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Harley Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 10:29 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Meter for reading Millivolts Bill... I use this one to test my EGT and CHT thermocouples...it also has a light meter, and a temp sensor built in...I replaced my old B&K (that I had for years before it finally bit the dust) with it, and it's every bit as good... It also measures sound levels...but I haven't really tested that function yet. www.harborfreight.com/5-in-1-digital-multimeter-98674.html They currently have a 20% off coupon here as well that's good online or in the store: http://tinyurl.com/9uf4wfw Harley _____ On 8/27/2012 10:14 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote: I think I have a bad EGT thermocouple and I have been trying to test it. One of my EGTs seems ok and the other is really low in temperature reading. When I test the two thermocouples I get either no readings or really high readings that go down when I heat the thermocouple. I bought a new VOM tester that had a temp probe as part of it to try and test the probes. But even with this tester I get nonsense readings. For example, if I plug the probe that came with the meter into the temp slot, it gives believable temp readings, but if I unplug the probe and try to read the output of the probe using the test leads and the 200MV scale, I get a reading of zero. I bought a new probe for the engine, but when I test either the new probe or the old (bad?) one with the test leads and the 200MV scale, I get the same results as above. I need to buy a meter that will read reliably on the MV scale. What meter do you suggest and where can I get one that is not too expensive? Bill B ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List <http://forums.matronics.com> http://forums.matronics.com <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Meter for reading Millivolts
Date: Aug 27, 2012
I put the thermocouples on a lit 60W light bulb for about 5 minutes to test that low reading theory. It didn't seem to make any difference to the meter. I thought buying one with the K probe would ensure that it would read on the millivolt scale, but it seems that didn't work. It appears to read plugged into the K probe socket, but not with the probes on the 200 MV scale. Bill _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Harley Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 1:58 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Meter for reading Millivolts I just looked up the millivolt readings for a type K thermocouple at room temperature (20 c). And the problem you may be having is trying to read that with the 200 millivolt scale. It is only about 0.8mv! As long as plugging into the thermocouple slot gives you a reading near the proper temperature, the thermocouple is working...I never tried to read them on a millivolt scale as I've always had actual instruments around that could read them and have the tables built in to convert to the proper temperatures...like those two meters we've been talking about. Harley _____ . On 8/27/2012 1:36 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: Harley, I didn't see that one in the store. They had this one http://www.harborfreight.com/ac-dc-digital-multimeter-37772.html This is the one I bought and with it I get the nonsense readings that I describe in my previous msg. I wonder is there a trick to the testing to get accurate readings? Bill _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Harley Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 10:29 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Meter for reading Millivolts Bill... I use this one to test my EGT and CHT thermocouples...it also has a light meter, and a temp sensor built in...I replaced my old B&K (that I had for years before it finally bit the dust) with it, and it's every bit as good... It also measures sound levels...but I haven't really tested that function yet. www.harborfreight.com/5-in-1-digital-multimeter-98674.html They currently have a 20% off coupon here as well that's good online or in the store: http://tinyurl.com/9uf4wfw Harley _____ On 8/27/2012 10:14 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote: I think I have a bad EGT thermocouple and I have been trying to test it. One of my EGTs seems ok and the other is really low in temperature reading. When I test the two thermocouples I get either no readings or really high readings that go down when I heat the thermocouple. I bought a new VOM tester that had a temp probe as part of it to try and test the probes. But even with this tester I get nonsense readings. For example, if I plug the probe that came with the meter into the temp slot, it gives believable temp readings, but if I unplug the probe and try to read the output of the probe using the test leads and the 200MV scale, I get a reading of zero. I bought a new probe for the engine, but when I test either the new probe or the old (bad?) one with the test leads and the 200MV scale, I get the same results as above. I need to buy a meter that will read reliably on the MV scale. What meter do you suggest and where can I get one that is not too expensive? Bill B ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List <http://forums.matronics.com> http://forums.matronics.com <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 27, 2012
From: Harley <harley(at)agelesswings.com>
Subject: Re: Meter for reading Millivolts
Just a continuity check of the wires will do that...if the wires are continuous from the panel to the probe and back (put your probes across the yellow and red wire in any thermocouple pair - with at least one disconnected from the display so that you aren't reading anything inside the display - and you should get a continuous reading) then the thermocouple is working...remember, a thermocouple is nothing more than two dissimilar wires attached at one end. Harley ----------------------------------------------------------------- On 8/27/2012 2:03 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: > > They read Zero with the probes and the thermocouples have ring > terminals on them so they will not fit into the sockets on the > meter for the thermocouple plug. > > I need to be able to read them with the probes because I need > to check the outputs behind the panel just before the > connection to the engine monitor so I know that the wires are > good all the way to the monitor. That way I will know what the > monitor is reading. And I will know where the problem is > located in case of an error in the temp reading. > > Bill > > . > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On > Behalf Of *Harley > *Sent:* Monday, August 27, 2012 1:44 PM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Meter for reading Millivolts > > I'm not familiar with that one, but looking at the picture, I > see an input for K thermocouples...if you plug your > thermocouple into those you should get an actual temperature > reading (in centigrade, it seems). Maybe you are having a > problem when you try to read them as millivolts using the > probes on the meter instead? Even the J thermocouples will > work in the K thermocouple input, just be a little bit off. > > Harley > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 8/27/2012 1:36 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: > >> Harley, >> >> I didn't see that one in the store. They had this one >> >> http://www.harborfreight.com/ac-dc-digital-multimeter-37772.html >> >> This is the one I bought and with it I get the nonsense >> readings that I describe in my previous msg. I wonder is >> there a trick to the testing to get accurate readings? >> >> Bill >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >> >> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On >> Behalf Of *Harley >> *Sent:* Monday, August 27, 2012 10:29 AM >> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >> >> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Meter for reading Millivolts >> >> Bill... >> >> I use this one to test my EGT and CHT thermocouples...it also >> has a light meter, and a temp sensor built in...I replaced my >> old B&K (that I had for years before it finally bit the dust) >> with it, and it's every bit as good... >> >> It also measures sound levels...but I haven't really tested >> that function yet. >> >> www.harborfreight.com/5-in-1-digital-multimeter-98674.html >> <http://www.harborfreight.com/5-in-1-digital-multimeter-98674.html> >> >> They currently have a 20% off coupon here as well that's good >> online or in the store: >> http://tinyurl.com/9uf4wfw >> >> Harley >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On 8/27/2012 10:14 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote: >> >>> >>> I think I have a bad EGT thermocouple and I have been trying to test it. >>> One of my EGTs seems ok and the other is really low in temperature reading. >>> When I test the two thermocouples I get either no readings or really high >>> readings that go down when I heat the thermocouple. >>> >>> I bought a new VOM tester that had a temp probe as part of it to try and >>> test the probes. But even with this tester I get nonsense readings. >>> For example, if I plug the probe that came with the meter into the temp >>> slot, it gives believable temp readings, but if I unplug the probe and try >>> to read the output of the probe using the test leads and the 200MV scale, I >>> get a reading of zero. >>> >>> I bought a new probe for the engine, but when I test either the new probe or >>> the old (bad?) one with the test leads and the 200MV scale, I get the same >>> results as above. >>> >>> I need to buy a meter that will read reliably on the MV scale. What meter >>> do you suggest and where can I get one that is not too expensive? >>> >>> Bill B >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG -www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> >>> >>> >> >> * * >> * * >> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List* >> *http://forums.matronics.com* >> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > * > > > * > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > Date: 08/27/12 > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 27, 2012
Subject: Re: anderoid tablets
From: bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
hi rumen, yea, i thought the revelance was aviation but oh well. i will keep you in on what i think after i get it. fwiw it has a gyroscope ans there must be an app out there for an artificial horizon!. spent an hour reading reviews and they were very positive. google doesn't have their sights set on i pad but rather kindle. bob noffs On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 6:58 AM, R. curtis wrote: > mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> > > Don't see the relevance of the question now since you already ordered it >> before asking. >> ? ? ? >> > > The relevence, INMHO, is that there are at least a couple of us on > the list that may be interested in the Garmin App, and may or may > not own an Anderoid. Any info on this might be helpful. > > Roger > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 27, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Meter for reading Millivolts
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Meter for reading Millivolts At 01:17 PM 8/27/2012, you wrote: Just a continuity check of the wires will do that...if the wires are continuous from the panel to the probe and back (put your probes across the yellow and red wire in any thermocouple pair - with at least one disconnected from the display so that you aren't reading anything inside the display - and you should get a continuous reading) then the thermocouple is working...remember, a thermocouple is nothing more than two dissimilar wires attached at one end. Exactly. As a general rule, thermocouples either work . . . or they don't. If one is presented with readings from a thermocouple that appear to be out of calibration, the source of that error is generally associated with installation or measurement/display. I'll refer the readers to this excerpt from the 'Connection on the topic of thermocouples. http://tinyurl.com/94uk94t . . . in particular, take a peek at Table 14-2 where we see that the USEFUL values of voltage being measured are TINY. The delta-voltage is less than 10 millivolts for a Type-K thermocouple looking at a cylinder head temperature of 425F. That span needs to be sliced up into say 42 parts to discern the difference between say 390F and 400F on the display. That's a minimum resolution of 250 MICROVOLTS. This speaks to the unique requirement to accurately measure and display tiny changes in voltage with accuracy and stability. As the article describes, accurate use of a thermocouple requires a COMPARISON with a temperature stable voltage most often described as a 'cold junction' or 'reference junction'. The voltage versus temperature chart in 14-2 assumes a cold junction of the SAME thermocouple materials held at 0C or 32F. I used to have a little Thermos that was filled with distilled water and ice frozen from that water to offer a very accurate 0C reference bath. Any instrument designed to accurately DISPLAY real time temperatures based on perception of thermocouple voltage must include some form of cold-junction reference in it's construction. It doesn't need to be an ice-bath, only an accurate voltage source that is microvolt stable with respect to temperature. Not difficult with modern electronics but not trivial either. Harly's observation is right on . . . if your thermocouple shows a low resistance continuity, then the thermocouple is not OPEN. If it shows continuity to the mounting enclosure, it may STILL be okay if the companion instrument is designed to tolerate certain noises that ride in on the thermocouple leads that are remotely grounded to the system. So there are two easily detected failure modes for a thermocouple. (1) It may be completely OPEN or (2) shorted to ground when it should not be. Any attempt to measure the thermocouple with a the most sensitive scale of a voltmeter will be unrewarding. You might see some wiggle in voltage based on changes in temperature but offer no significance associated with the magnitude of observed readings. MOST manufactured thermocouples are K-type and will be compatible with MOST multi-meters having a thermocouple-style probe plug. Emacs! I have a couple of meters fitted with such sockets that purport to measure temperature . . . and they're pretty good. But not as good as a device specific to the task like a thermocouple reading instrument by Fluke, Omega, and capable competitors. Further, just as we've see some great improvements in accuracy and utility of digital multimeters, it's reasonable to expect improvements in task- specific meters too. I've ordered one of these critters off eBay Emacs! . . . $5 delivered to my door. I'll see how accurate it is . . . and how well it compensates for local ambient (cold junction issues). In ANY case, I'll bet it is a useful trouble-shooting tool for seeing if an installed thermocouple and associated wiring is in-the-ball-park okay. But if you're wanting to check the CALIBRATION of your as-installed thermocouples, the only way is to compare ship's readings with an independent measurement using probe grade wire and an instrument of known integrity. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 28, 2012
From: David <dlposey-atlanta(at)att.net>
Subject: Fwd: Fw: 1948 Cartoon
ANYONE KNOW OBUMMERS E-MAIL ADDRESS? */In God We Trust!/* *//* ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Pretty amazing, for sure...*check this one out. It's incredible that this 1948 cartoon has come this close to depicting our current day situation. It's worth your time. 1948 cartoon *EVERY PERSON IN THE USA SHOULD SEE THIS!* *JUST THINK, THIS WAS FORECASTED 62 YEARS AGO!* *What can a cartoon, produced in 1948, teach us today, that's of any value? You'd be very surprised! Pay close attention! Keep in mind as you watch this that it was done in '1948'. Keep telling yourself that as you view it.* *This is **one of the best**I have ever seen and it was produced in 1948. This should be viewed by every AMERICAN. Click on 1948Cartoon below -****this cartoon is timeless and is just as true today as****it was in 1948!* ***1948 Cartoon* <http://nationaljuggernaut.blogspot.com/2009/09/this-cartoon-seemed-far-fetched-in-1948.html> -- /Anna/ /" "Choose you this day whom ye shall serve...As for me & my house, we will serve the Lord." / Joshua 24:15 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Burbidge <mburbidg(at)gmail.com>
Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Main_contactor_to_starter_contactor_connection?=
=?windows-1252?Q?=85?
Date: Aug 28, 2012
Hi Folks, I'm using a short length of battery type cable made by B&C to connect my main contactor to the starter contactor. Both contactors are from B&C. The orientation of the terminal bolts on the contactors does not make for using copper bar easily. I've enclosed a picture. My question is, do you the think the radius of the bend will put too much stress on this wire? If so, what would you suggest? Thanks, Michael- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Stripping large wires...
From: "stearman456" <warbirds(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Aug 28, 2012
With shorter pieces of heavy gauge wire I lay them flat on the workbench and roll them with the palm of one hand while holding a sharp carpet knife or box cutter against the insulation. This allows you to hold a consistent pressure against the insulation and decreases the chances of nicking any wires. After that just a couple of flexes will break the Tefzel insulation loose. Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382014#382014 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 28, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Main contactor to starter contactor =?iso-8859-1?Q?connection=85?
At 12:56 PM 8/28/2012, you wrote: >Hi Folks, > >I'm using a short length of battery type cable made by B&C to >connect my main contactor to the starter contactor. Both contactors >are from B&C. The orientation of the terminal bolts on the >contactors does not make for using copper bar easily. > >I've enclosed a picture. My question is, do you the think the radius >of the bend will put too much stress on this wire? If so, what would >you suggest? No, it's fine. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 28, 2012
From: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Fw: 1948 Cartoon
Google is your friend, David... check it out! Paul On 8/28/2012 10:16 AM, David wrote: > > > ANYONE KNOW OBUMMERS E-MAIL ADDRESS? > */In God We Trust!/* > > *//* > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Pretty amazing, for sure...*check this one out. > > > It's incredible that this 1948 cartoon has come this close > to depicting our current day situation. It's worth your time. > > 1948 cartoon > *EVERY PERSON IN THE USA SHOULD SEE THIS!* > *JUST THINK, THIS WAS FORECASTED 62 YEARS AGO!* > *What can a cartoon, produced in 1948, teach us today, > that's of any value? You'd be very surprised! Pay close > attention! Keep in mind as you watch this that it was done > in '1948'. Keep telling yourself that as you view it.* > *This is **one of the best**I have ever seen and it was > produced in 1948. This should be viewed by every AMERICAN. > Click on 1948Cartoon below -****this cartoon is timeless > and is just as true today as****it was in 1948!* > > ***1948 Cartoon* > <http://nationaljuggernaut.blogspot.com/2009/09/this-cartoon-seemed-far-fetched-in-1948.html> > > > -- > > /Anna/ > > /" > "Choose you this day whom ye shall serve...As for me & my house, we > will serve the Lord." / > > Joshua 24:15 > > > * > > > * -- Please note my new email address! millner(at)me.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 29, 2012
Subject: Re: Fwd: Fw: 1948 Cartoon
From: joe motis <joemotis(at)gmail.com>
I assume that you feel that garbage like your post and and your God references are appropriate here, let me be one of the many to tell you that they are not. Also, protocol on the list encourages that you also write on your post "do not archive" as to not fill the servers with needless postings. Plus, as an added bonus, your post is not aviation related so it should not be here in the first place. Finally, "Obummer'? What are you 12?? Joe Motis Cherokee 180 No Archive On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 10:16 AM, David wrote: > > > ANYONE KNOW OBUMMER=92S E-MAIL ADDRESS? > > > *In God We Trust!* > > ** > > > ------------------------------ > > **** > > **** > > *Pretty amazing, for sure...*check this one out.**** > > > **** > > **** > > It's incredible that this 1948 cartoon has come this close to depicting > our current day situation. It's worth your time.**** > > **** > > 1948 cartoon > *EVERY PERSON IN THE USA SHOULD SEE THIS!* > *JUST THINK, THIS WAS FORECASTED 62 YEARS AGO!* > *What can a cartoon, produced in 1948, teach us today, that's of any > value? You'd be very surprised! Pay close attention! Keep in mind as you > watch this that it was done in '1948'. Keep telling yourself that as you > view it.* > *This is **one of the best** I have ever seen and it was produced in > 1948. This should be viewed by every AMERICAN. Click on 1948Cartoon belo w - > ** **this cartoon is timeless and is just as true today as** **it was in > 1948!* **** > > **** > > * **1948 Cartoon*<http://nationaljuggernaut.blogspot.com/2009/09/this-c artoon-seemed-far-fetched-in-1948.html> > **** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > > -- **** > > *Anna***** > > *" > "Choose you this day whom ye shall serve...As for me & my house, we will > serve the Lord." ***** > > Joshua 24:15**** > > **** > > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 29, 2012
From: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Fw: 1948 Cartoon
The irony of all this is that had it not been for all the follow-up posts =0Acomplaining about the original off-topic posting I would have just ignor ed the =0Apost and not even looked at the cartoon.=C2- But since so many couldn't just let it =0Apass=C2-and had to follow-up with condemnation of he original post and poster I had =0Ato see what upset so many net-nannies .=C2- BFD!=C2- If you don't like the post use the =0Adelete key and mov e on.=C2- It takes far less time and effort to just ignore the =0Aoff-top ic post than to whine about it and spend time complaining.=C2- =0A=0A=0AA nd YES, I know that this post is also doing just what I commented on but I do =0Atend to agree with Bill, it is the very freedoms that we have that al low us to =0Aenjoy our favorite hobby.=C2- =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____________ ____________________=0AFrom: William Greenley <wgreenley(at)gmail.com>=0ATo: a eroelectric-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Wed, August 29, 2012 11:56:32 AM=0AS ubject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fwd: Fw: 1948 Cartoon=0A=0A=0AWhile I agree that the cartoon post was off topic, I am puzzled by the angry =0Areaction of some posters. If not for the freedom advocated by this cartoon, none =0A of us would be able to pursue the hobby of aviation. No totalitarian govern ment =0Awould every allow a bunch of homebuilt airplanes to be flying aroun d virtually =0Aanytime and anywhere we wish to fly. I used to live in a cou ntry where it took =0Ame three years and many shared bottles of Fanta just to get a ham license. As =0Afor a pilot=99s license, that was only fo r members of their air force or =0Apresidential guard. We need to be thankf ul for the wonderful freedoms that we =0Ahave.=0A=C2-=0A=9Cendowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights=9D=0A=C2-=0ABill G ============ =0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ralph Finch <ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 29, 2012
Subject: Re: Fwd: Fw: 1948 Cartoon
The problem with idiots spouting some extreme position on politics, religion, etc is not so much the original post, which can be deleted with a silent curse at the poster. No, it's the seemingly endless follow-up posts--like this one--condemning or excusing the first post. It's just one reason of several *I miss the old Usenet*, which allowed one to kill threads and all follow-ups on the first post. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Jean Curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: KX155 flag problem
Date: Aug 29, 2012
I have a KX 155 VOR that the to/from flag has ceased to function. Joe Motis Do you have some particulars on your flag function problem? Does it seem to work OK except for the flag? Do you get the station ID? I am sure someone on the list can help troubleshoot it if we have a good explanation of the problem. Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Mather" <peter(at)mather.com>
Subject: KX155 flag problem
Date: Aug 29, 2012
The KX155 doesn't know about the To/From flag all it creates is a VOR/LOC composite signal- the to/from is generated in the display, KI208/9 or KI 203/4 or if you have one in a KN72 which can then drive an HIS or KI202/KI206 If you post more details of your full set up it would be better rgds Peter From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger & Jean Curtis Sent: 29 August 2012 18:41 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: KX155 flag problem I have a KX 155 VOR that the to/from flag has ceased to function. Joe Motis Do you have some particulars on your flag function problem? Does it seem to work OK except for the flag? Do you get the station ID? I am sure someone on the list can help troubleshoot it if we have a good explanation of the problem. Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 29, 2012
Subject: Re: KX155 flag problem
From: joe motis <joemotis(at)gmail.com>
Hi, thanks for the response. I pick up the station identifier loud and clear and the needle acts normal. It does not seem to be a common problem. Not sure which end to start on, the radio or the instrument. Reseating all connections has been suggested but has not been implemented. Regards Joe Motis Cherokee 180 On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 10:40 AM, Roger & Jean Curtis < mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> wrote: > > > I have a KX 155 VOR that the to/from flag has ceased to function. > > > Joe Motis > > > Do you have some particulars on your flag function problem? Does it seem > to work OK except for the flag? Do you get the station ID? > > > I am sure someone on the list can help troubleshoot it if we have a good > explanation of the problem. > > > Roger > > * * > > * * > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 29, 2012
Subject: Re: KX155 flag problem
From: joe motis <joemotis(at)gmail.com>
Thanks Peter. Airplane is in the hangar and I am at work. Will gather details and post in the future. Regards Joe Motis Cherokee 180 no archive On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Peter Mather wrote: > The KX155 doesn't know about the To/From flag all it creates is a VOR/LOC > composite signal- the to/from is generated in the display, KI208/9 or KI > 203/4 or if you have one in a KN72 which can then drive an HIS or > KI202/KI206**** > > ** ** > > If you post more details of your full set up it would be better**** > > ** ** > > rgds**** > > ** ** > > Peter**** > > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: > owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Roger & Jean > Curtis > *Sent:* 29 August 2012 18:41 > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: AeroElectric-List: KX155 flag problem**** > > ** ** > > **** > > I have a KX 155 VOR that the to/from flag has ceased to function. **** > > **** > > **** > > Joe Motis**** > > **** > > **** > > Do you have some particulars on your flag function problem? Does it seem > to work OK except for the flag? Do you get the station ID?**** > > **** > > I am sure someone on the list can help troubleshoot it if we have a good > explanation of the problem.**** > > **** > > Roger**** > > * ***** > > * ***** > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ralph Finch <ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 29, 2012
Subject: Re: Fwd: Fw: 1948 Cartoon
Could someone tell me where Jesus preached in the bible that the free enterprise or capitalist system is the most godly? RF On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Neal George wrote : > An excellent question, Joe!**** > > ** ** > > You=92ve exercised your freedom to engage in un-coerced commerce and own > property (an airplane and its associated equipment). Now that some of th e > equipment has ceased to function correctly, you have the freedom to make a > choice ' repair it or not. **** > > ** ** > > More freedom: If you choose to repair the unit, do you possess the skill s > to complete the work yourself or not? If not, you have another opportuni ty > to engage in un-coerced commerce: the freedom to choose whom you will hi re > to make the repair. **** > > ** ** > > So, exercise your freedom and choose an avionics repair shop. Then engag e > the proprietor in contract negotiations ' you each have the freedom to > accept, refuse or rebut the others proposal. When you reach an agreement > on the work to be accomplished and the price, you have a contract. If th e > work is accomplished in accordance with the contract, you have a duty to > complete the contract and pay the man. If the work is not accomplished i n > accordance with the contract, you have the freedom to seek satisfaction.* * > ** > > ** ** > > Believe it or not, it is relevant.**** > > ** ** > > Neal George **** > > ** ** > > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: > owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *joe motis > > I have a KX 155 VOR that the to/from flag has ceased to function. Would > someone please tell me how cartoons and Bible quotes are going to help me > repair it?**** > > I must be doing something wrong.**** > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ground loops
From: "stearman456" <warbirds(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Aug 29, 2012
In the example above with the SL-40 and the audio panel, would it be acceptable to go to pin 13 & 14 with a shielded double wire and ground the shielding per Note 1 at the radio rack, leaving the shielding at the audio panel end free? I'm about to do a stand alone SL-40 installation with no audio panel and the install drawing for it shows the shielding also grounds at the jack ends as well as per Note 1. Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382102#382102 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 29, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Ground loops
At 06:07 PM 8/29/2012, you wrote: In the example above with the SL-40 and the audio panel, would it be acceptable to go to pin 13 & 14 with a shielded double wire and ground the shielding per Note 1 at the radio rack, leaving the shielding at the audio panel end free? I'm about to do a stand alone SL-40 installation with no audio panel and the install drawing for it shows the shielding also grounds at the jack ends as well as per Note 1. Dan Emacs! There is no value in connecting both ends unless the shield is also a signal/power conductor. Since this is not the case, connection at one end only is sufficient to reap the benefits of shielding but connection at both ends in this case is unlikely to be troublesome. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Charger needed to revive 18 aH Lead Acid Batteries
From: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Date: Aug 29, 2012
Hi Group I have a task to try and revive some 18 aH 12 volt sealed AGM batteries that weigh in at ~ 14.5 pounds. The charger that was being used on them begins at a 3.5aH charger, then slows down a bit and peaks ~ 14.2/3 then goes to 13.7 float. After a while, I don't know if from letting discharge too much or for too long, or the 3.5 aH is a bit too fast, but what happens is the batteries although they peak and go to float, they really don't take too much of a charge and have a very low capacity. I have a 900mA Yuasa motorcycle charger, that does a little better. Now what I did find works really well, is using the fool cheapest of cheap battery chargers I gave away with the 9aH batteries I sold on AeroElestric. That charger is nothing more than a 500mA transformer that supplies a constant 500mA current, then the circuit just looks for 15.4/5 and turns off. Now mind you it can take not hours, but days to reach that magic 15.4/5 number, and some batteries can not be revived, but most can. Then I found that if I take two of these batteries and parallel them and let the poor 500mA charger reach 15.4/5, it gets about as good as it gets so far. I think that the longer elevated voltage is perhaps desulfating?? I have a constant current 2 aH charger, and if I let it go much over 14.4 the batteries make a minor bubbling noise that I don't like too much and figure if I let it go it will begin venting? I let it go 2 hours but the 500mA charge brought back more capacity. Sorry for the long winded explain, what I need: I need a consistent source for a fairly inexpensive charger that can help revive these batteries. I looked at Walmart, they have a 1.5 amp charger that peaks too low. Any ideas? Thanking you in advance Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382105#382105 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ground loops
From: "stearman456" <warbirds(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Aug 29, 2012
Thanks, Bob. I don't know where you get the time to answer all our questions but we sure appreciate it. Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382107#382107 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: External Antenna for Garmin Aera 500 GPS?
From: "stearman456" <warbirds(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Aug 29, 2012
Can anyone recommend an external antenna for an Aera 500? It'll be a permanent installation on the aircraft. Not interested in anything with a suction cup. Dan warbirds(at)shaw.ca Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382121#382121 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 30, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Charger needed to revive 18 aH Lead Acid Batteries
At 06:22 PM 8/29/2012, you wrote: Hi Group I have a task to try and revive some 18 aH 12 volt sealed AGM batteries that weigh in at ~ 14.5 pounds. The charger that was being used on them begins at a 3.5aH charger, then slows down a bit and peaks ~ 14.2/3 then goes to 13.7 float. After a while, I don't know if from letting discharge too much or for too long, or the 3.5 aH is a bit too fast, but what happens is the batteries although they peak and go to float, they really don't take too much of a charge and have a very low capacity. How long does the charger stay in a top-off mode? 3.5 amps charge is okay. But the absorption charge should sustain at 14.7 or so until the charge acceptance current of the battery is 100 mA or less. http://tinyurl.com/9s7kpww I have a 900mA Yuasa motorcycle charger, that does a little better. Now what I did find works really well, is using the fool cheapest of cheap battery chargers I gave away with the 9aH batteries I sold on AeroElectric. Do you have a way to measure and plot the performance of your charger. Also a way to measure real capacity as a result of that charging protocol? One of these West Mountain Radio analyzers can be used to both plot charger performance -AND- confirm the battery's acceptance of charge. That charger is nothing more than a 500mA transformer that supplies a constant 500mA current, then the circuit just looks for 15.4/5 and turns off. Now mind you it can take not hours, but days to reach that magic 15.4/5 number, and some batteries can not be revived, but most can. Then I found that if I take two of these batteries and parallel them and let the poor 500mA charger reach 15.4/5, it gets about as good as it gets so far. Yes, the higher trip point is well into the range recommended for absorption charging . . . perhaps a bit high but certainly high enough. I think that the longer elevated voltage is perhaps desulfating?? Don't know if it's a sulfation problem at all, just a quirk of the chemistry. Those two batteries I bought from you have been subjected to a couple of charge/discharge cycles using just a Battery Tender and they seem to be taking on a full load of watt-seconds. Just for grins, I'll do a cap-check on one and then do a manual, constant current charge that guarantees sufficient dwell at absorption voltages and repeat the cap-check. There's a number of exemplar smart-charger profiles at: http://tinyurl.com/9t6t8x8 in particular, take a look at this curve plotted on a Schumacher 1562A http://tinyurl.com/945zdog it seems to be doing the right things in accordance with contemporary wisdom The Battery Tender Jr has the right moves too, but not as defined. That's what I use to charge and maintain a stack of test batteries here in my shop. Battery Minders behaved like this when I tested them http://tinyurl.com/9paguuy Little or no absorption dwell, very low end of charge trip point. I used to have a couple but after doing these tests, I relegated them to maintaining a fully charged battery only. Gave them away to family members for keep batteries in garden tractors and seldom used vehicles topped off . . . but cautioned against expectations for getting the battery up to 100%. It would probably pump it up to a value that would start the engine. Once the lawn was mowed, the machine's normal recharging protocols would probably top off the battery where the Battery Minder would be useful for maintaining that condition. I have a constant current 2 aH charger, and if I let it go much over 14.4 the batteries make a minor bubbling noise that I don't like too much and figure if I let it go it will begin venting? I let it go 2 hours but the 500mA charge brought back more capacity. Sorry for the long winded explain, what I need: I need a consistent source for a fairly inexpensive charger that can help revive these batteries. I looked at Walmart, they have a 1.5 amp charger that peaks too low. Is this the 1562 or it's offspring? I'm surprised that it wouldn't behave much as the version I tested some years ago. Schumacher is the BigDaddy of battery charging tools. If anyone should know how to do it right, it should be them. I'll do a looksee to find out if the Battery Tender falls short of top-off when used as a stand-alone charger-maintainer. I thought the short answer to your question would be to pick up a Schumacher 1562 or current replacement at Walmart. Do you have one of these in hand? You could mail it to me and I can run some plots on it. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 30, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 1948 Cartoon
At 09:25 PM 8/29/2012, you wrote: >A little thin-skinned are we, Joe? Let us allow this thread to die. The posting was inadvertent but in no instance does it warrant a stirring of the pot of perception for personal shortcomings. The truth, whether in physics or honorable government lies in metrics derived from repeatable experiments. To be sure, the present experiment in Washington is demonstrating many examples of how NOT to go about it. We can fix experiments gone wrong on airplanes here on the list. Experiments in Washington are another matter. I'd hoped to spool up a forum for those discussions but I'm still too busy with plumbing and wires for the bathroom remod. In mean time, let us not loose our grip on the mission for this List . . . nor the decorum that promotes accurate and useful exchange of knowledge. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Charger needed to revive 18 aH Lead Acid Batteries
From: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Date: Aug 30, 2012
Hi Bob Thx. for the reply. The chargers being used are Chargetek 3 stage chargers: http://www.chargetek.com/resources/battery-charger-basics/ I didn't measure it, but the link says it turns off at between 1/100C and 1/50C, so on a 17aH battery that is between 170 and 340mAs. What is the amp draw that you need to drop below for the Schumacher 1562A to drop out of absorption rate and go to float with a 17aH battery? If it's 100mAs or less that may just be the ticket to success. Is there a way to adjust this point to allow it to stay in absorb for a longer time? Thx. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382141#382141 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: "Pulled Low to Ground"........(Huh?)
From: "stearman456" <warbirds(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Aug 30, 2012
In the Garmin SL-40 installation guide it says that both the transmit and intercomm push-to-talks need to be "pulled low to ground". I'm asuming they just mean the other wire of the switch goes to ground? I'm also asuming they mean radio/contact ground, not airframe ground? Or am I missing something? Wish I could post the schematic but I'm working from my Ipad and haven't figured out how to do that yet! Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382142#382142 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 30, 2012
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: "Pulled Low to Ground"........(Huh?)
Yes, "pull to ground" still doesn't sound right for this electronic amateur but yes, that's what it means. It means the other wire of the switch is connected to ground. Either one will work because they are the same but... don't know. Bill On 8/30/2012 1:21 PM, stearman456 wrote: > > In the Garmin SL-40 installation guide it says that both the transmit and intercomm push-to-talks need to be "pulled low to ground". I'm asuming they just mean the other wire of the switch goes to ground? I'm also asuming they mean radio/contact ground, not airframe ground? Or am I missing something? Wish I could post the schematic but I'm working from my Ipad and haven't figured out how to do that yet! > > Dan > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382142#382142 > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 30, 2012
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: "Pulled Low to Ground"........(Huh?)
On 8/30/2012 1:44 PM, Bill Watson wrote: > > > Yes, "pull to ground" still doesn't sound right for this electronic > amateur but yes, that's what it means. It means the other wire of > the switch is connected to ground. Either one will work because they > are the "same" but there may be a distinction that makes the radio ground optimal... but I don't really know. The way I understand it, I have all my avionic grounds run to a single point and all my "pull to grounds" therefore are grounded to the same point. > > Bill > > On 8/30/2012 1:21 PM, stearman456 wrote: >> >> >> In the Garmin SL-40 installation guide it says that both the transmit >> and intercomm push-to-talks need to be "pulled low to ground". I'm >> asuming they just mean the other wire of the switch goes to ground? >> I'm also asuming they mean radio/contact ground, not airframe >> ground? Or am I missing something? Wish I could post the schematic >> but I'm working from my Ipad and haven't figured out how to do that yet! >> >> Dan >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382142#382142 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> >> > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 30, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: "Pulled Low to Ground"........(Huh?)
At 12:21 PM 8/30/2012, you wrote: > >In the Garmin SL-40 installation guide it says that both the >transmit and intercomm push-to-talks need to be "pulled low to >ground". I'm asuming they just mean the other wire of the switch >goes to ground? I'm also asuming they mean radio/contact ground, >not airframe ground? Or am I missing something? Wish I could post >the schematic but I'm working from my Ipad and haven't figured out >how to do that yet! This is an unfortunate scrambling of vernacular. The function of a discrete CONTROL or SIGNAL path is often described using these terms. For example, the legacy control philosophy for closing the battery contactor may be described as "pull to ground", "active low", "pulled down", "low side switched" or simply "switched ground". All of these phrases will bring the same image to mind for someone who works across several disciplines in electronics. The other side of the coin describes the control of something like your landing light where the author might say "active hi", "pull up to bus", "high side switched", etc. Discrete levels in both the power and digital worlds are not subject to interference from small noises that might exist on the selected ground for a pull-to- ground push-to-talk line. Many thousands of radios have produced performance as advertised when their mic jacks were simply grounded to airframe at the jack's mounting. Of course, in our legacy 3-wire microphone architecture this does put transmit audio at-risk for picking small noises that may exist in currents that flow on the airframe . . . hence a potential ground loop that manifests in noise heard on transmitted audio while those same noises had no effect on getting the transmitter to become active with the PTT button. I have often advised builders to "follow the manufacturer's instructions' when it comes to dissecting the designer's intent for installations. In the SL-40 wiring excerpt Emacs! We see that microphone and headset jack grounds are brought back to the radio on their own wires . . . good practice. This also means that the "pull down" on TxKey line by PTT buttons on wired into these jacks will share that ground line wiht the mic. This same drawing also shows "yolk mounted transmit buttons" with an undefined ground. This is because the discrete control line is not subject to the ground loop contamination and MAY be grounded anywhere . . . which includes the option of taking the wire all the way back to share a ground with the radio. Same condition exists for the Intercom Selector Switch. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: "Pulled Low to Ground"........(Huh?)
From: "stearman456" <warbirds(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Aug 30, 2012
Thanks, guys! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382152#382152 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 30, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Charger needed to revive 18 aH Lead Acid
Batteries At 12:16 PM 8/30/2012, you wrote: Hi Bob Thx. for the reply. The chargers being used are Chargetek 3 stage chargers: http://www.chargetek.com/resources/battery-charger-basics/ I didn't measure it, but the link says it turns off at between 1/100C and 1/50C, so on a 17aH battery that is between 170 and 340mAs. Hmmmm . . . okay. I seem to recall that Skip Koss talked about recharge currents below 100 mA for terminating an absorption cycle on really big batteries like the 30-50 a.h. aircraft batteries we used at HBC. Kicking off that high seems a bit 'light'. What is the amp draw that you need to drop below for the Schumacher 1562A to drop out of absorption rate and go to float with a 17aH battery? Have no idea. Never measured it. Don't know how critical it is. Given that the Schumacher product stayed in a absorption mode for a significant time suggested that a righteous absorption charge was being delivered. I don't have any 1562's around to measure. I could put one of your Chargetek machines on a DAS and find out where they are calibrated. If it's 100mAs or less that may just be the ticket to success. Yes. Just for grins, I took one of the 12a.h. batteries I bought from you that has been on a Battery Tender for the last several days (green light on, in maintenance mode. Fooey, didn't read the float voltage first) and hooked it to a 14.6v power supply. Charge current jumped to 300mA and over the next 12 minutes it fell to 100mA. Putting a crayon to the numbers suggests that the battery is 12 a.h. x 12v x 3600 s/hr ~ 500,000 watt-seconds at full charge. The little boost on the bench put in 200 mA average for 12 min for 0.2 x 14 x 720 ~ 2000 watt-seconds or less than 0.5% of capacity. Hence I deduce (1) that the Battery Tender did indeed return and support this battery to 100% of rated capacity and (2) an end of absorption cycle value of 100mA is not an unreasonable calibration point. It would be interesting to plot an absorption cycle for energy the battery takes on after recharge current drops below 300mA . . . I'm guessing that it's probably less than 1% of rated capacity . . . but don't know without measuring. Is there a way to adjust this point to allow it to stay in absorb for a longer time? Haven't had a 1562 (or replacement) apart to find out. But even if the EOAC termination value is higher, I'm not convinced that you're going to loose much. We could set up the experiment and find out. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 30, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Charger needed to revive 18 aH Lead Acid
Batteries If it's 100mAs or less that may just be the ticket to success. Yes. Just for grins, I took one of the 12a.h. batteries I bought from you that has been on a Battery Tender for the last several days (green light on, in maintenance mode. Fooey, didn't read the float voltage first) and hooked it to a 14.6v power supply. Charge current jumped to 300mA and over the next 12 minutes it fell to 100mA. Another data point. After one hour at 14.6 volts, current going into the battery is still about 90mA. This suggests to me that the battery has stopped converting incoming energy into changes in chemistry and that 100mA may indeed be too large a value for marking end-of-absorption- charge cycle. The values you deduced for the Chargtek device of 200-300 mA may indeed be more practical. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 31, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Charger needed to revive 18 aH Lead Acid
Batteries On 8/30/12 I wrote: Another data point. After one hour at 14.6 volts, current going into the battery is still about 90mA. I put this battery on the WMR CBAII at 1.2A load and the battery delivered 12.2 a.h. This value is consistent with other evaluations of what appears to be a mis-labeled battery. I've put it back on the Battery Tender as the sole source of charge. Initial rate was 0.85A. After 2 hours, the terminal voltage has come up from 11.8 to 12.2 and the rate is 0.75A. I'll let the Battery Tender do it's thing for 24 hours and then repeat the cap check cited above. I think we're going to find that the 'Tender' is putting as much snort back into the battery as it will accept . . . but we shall see. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 31, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Charger needed to revive 18 aH Lead Acid Batteries
At 06:22 PM 8/29/2012, you wrote: > > >Hi Group > >I have a task to try and revive some 18 aH 12 volt sealed AGM >batteries that weigh in at ~ 14.5 pounds. > >The charger that was being used on them begins at a 3.5aH charger, >then slows down a bit and peaks ~ 14.2/3 then goes to 13.7 float. Pursuing another train of thought: It is possible that the batteries have suffered so degradation of performance due to combinations of age, conditions of storage, or even manufacturing quality. Skip Koss has related Concorde's techniques for recovering what appears to be a totally trashed battery. The process includes things like application of 24v on a 12v battery until recharge currents rise above some established value followed by a couple deep charge/discharge cycles. He said this process may well flog the horse back to some demonstration of life . . . but you never get back to 100% even if the battery is young. There's a mil-spec requirement for being able to recover a badly discharged battery . . . like a dead-short on it for a week before the recovery process is applied. Capacity tests measure proportion of chemistry still active . . . and there are some failures that cannot be recovered with outside stimulus. Bob . . . >After a while, I don't know if from letting discharge too much or >for too long, or the 3.5 aH is a bit too fast, but what happens is >the batteries although they peak and go to float, they really don't >take too much of a charge and have a very low capacity. > >I have a 900mA Yuasa motorcycle charger, that does a little better. > >Now what I did find works really well, is using the fool cheapest of >cheap battery chargers I gave away with the 9aH batteries I sold on >AeroElestric. > >That charger is nothing more than a 500mA transformer that supplies >a constant 500mA current, then the circuit just looks for 15.4/5 and >turns off. Now mind you it can take not hours, but days to reach >that magic 15.4/5 number, and some batteries can not be revived, but >most can. Then I found that if I take two of these batteries and >parallel them and let the poor 500mA charger reach 15.4/5, it gets >about as good as it gets so far. > >I think that the longer elevated voltage is perhaps desulfating?? > >I have a constant current 2 aH charger, and if I let it go much over >14.4 the batteries make a minor bubbling noise that I don't like too >much and figure if I let it go it will begin venting? I let it go 2 >hours but the 500mA charge brought back more capacity. > >Sorry for the long winded explain, what I need: > >I need a consistent source for a fairly inexpensive charger that can >help revive these batteries. > >I looked at Walmart, they have a 1.5 amp charger that peaks too low. > >Any ideas? > >Thanking you in advance >Ron Parigoris > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382105#382105 > > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Burbidge <mburbidg(at)gmail.com>
Subject: B&C Boss mounted altenator...
Date: Aug 31, 2012
Folks, I just got my "pre-owned" engine mounted to my RV-9A this week. The engine is an O320-D3G and it came out of a certified aircraft. It had a large certified alternator on it, made by Chrysler, interestingly enough. I purchased a B&C 40 Amp alternator to replace it. I thought it would be a direct replacement for the certified alternator. The certified alternator is boss mounted. When I took the old alternator off and tried to put the B&C alternator on, I immediately noticed that the mounting brackets were very different. The old brackets consisted of three separate brackets. There's a long bracket in the rear, then one that the alternator hangs directly under and finally a strap that ties the starter to alternator bracket. All three brackets are much shorter than the single bracket that came with the B&C alternator. I've enclosed a few pictures. Do I have to try and fabricate the rear bracket and the starter-altenator strap to match the B&C alternator? I don't really have the equipment or know how to fabricate steel brackets. The material is at least 1/4 inch thick. Any help or suggestions? Thanks, Michael- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: B&C Boss mounted altenator...
From: "H. Marvin Haught" <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net>
Date: Aug 31, 2012
#1 - See if you can drill new mounting holes in the "U" bracket mounted to the case to reposition the bracket so that it will mount up with the attachment bracket on the alternator. #2 If that won't work, see if you can find a steel spacer that will take up the space between the U bracket and the attachment bracket on the alternator. 1/8" inch pipe might work, cut to size with a hack saw, washers on each end. Then use a bolt of proper length to tie everything together. The latter solution is not elegant, but should cause no problems. M. Haught On Aug 31, 2012, at 9:37 PM, Michael Burbidge wrote: > Folks, > > I just got my "pre-owned" engine mounted to my RV-9A this week. The engine is an O320-D3G and it came out of a certified aircraft. It had a large certified alternator on it, made by Chrysler, interestingly enough. I purchased a B&C 40 Amp alternator to replace it. I thought it would be a direct replacement for the certified alternator. The certified alternator is boss mounted. > > When I took the old alternator off and tried to put the B&C alternator on, I immediately noticed that the mounting brackets were very different. The old brackets consisted of three separate brackets. There's a long bracket in the rear, then one that the alternator hangs directly under and finally a strap that ties the starter to alternator bracket. All three brackets are much shorter than the single bracket that came with the B&C alternator. I've enclosed a few pictures. > > Do I have to try and fabricate the rear bracket and the starter-altenator strap to match the B&C alternator? I don't really have the equipment or know how to fabricate steel brackets. The material is at least 1/4 inch thick. > > Any help or suggestions? > > Thanks, > Michael- > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: B&C Boss mounted altenator...
From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: Aug 31, 2012
You just need to call B&C and have them send you the right one. They have two different mounts. Case & Boss. Don't recall which is which, but they will fix you up. Tim Sent from my iPad On Aug 31, 2012, at 7:37 PM, Michael Burbidge wrote: > Folks, > > I just got my "pre-owned" engine mounted to my RV-9A this week. The engine is an O320-D3G and it came out of a certified aircraft. It had a large certified alternator on it, made by Chrysler, interestingly enough. I purchased a B&C 40 Amp alternator to replace it. I thought it would be a direct replacement for the certified alternator. The certified alternator is boss mounted. > > When I took the old alternator off and tried to put the B&C alternator on, I immediately noticed that the mounting brackets were very different. The old brackets consisted of three separate brackets. There's a long bracket in the rear, then one that the alternator hangs directly under and finally a strap that ties the starter to alternator bracket. All three brackets are much shorter than the single bracket that came with the B&C alternator. I've enclosed a few pictures. > > Do I have to try and fabricate the rear bracket and the starter-altenator strap to match the B&C alternator? I don't really have the equipment or know how to fabricate steel brackets. The material is at least 1/4 inch thick. > > Any help or suggestions? > > Thanks, > Michael- > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: B&C Boss mounted altenator...
From: Michael Burbidge <mburbidg(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 31, 2012
I will call them, but it is not a problem of boss vs. case. My engine has a boss mount and the alternator from B&C is a boss mount. The problem is that they only supplied 1 of 3 pieces to the boss mount. Now it may be that the alternator is light enough that it doesn't need the other two pieces. I don't know if the tie to the starter is to support the starter or the alternator. And maybe the rear bracket isn't required for the B&C alternator. It that's the case it would be good for the instructions to mention this. Thanks, Michael- On Aug 31, 2012, at 8:26 PM, Tim Andres wrote: > > You just need to call B&C and have them send you the right one. They have two different mounts. Case & Boss. Don't recall which is which, but they will fix you up. > Tim > > Sent from my iPad > > On Aug 31, 2012, at 7:37 PM, Michael Burbidge wrote: > >> Folks, >> >> I just got my "pre-owned" engine mounted to my RV-9A this week. The engine is an O320-D3G and it came out of a certified aircraft. It had a large certified alternator on it, made by Chrysler, interestingly enough. I purchased a B&C 40 Amp alternator to replace it. I thought it would be a direct replacement for the certified alternator. The certified alternator is boss mounted. >> >> When I took the old alternator off and tried to put the B&C alternator on, I immediately noticed that the mounting brackets were very different. The old brackets consisted of three separate brackets. There's a long bracket in the rear, then one that the alternator hangs directly under and finally a strap that ties the starter to alternator bracket. All three brackets are much shorter than the single bracket that came with the B&C alternator. I've enclosed a few pictures. >> >> Do I have to try and fabricate the rear bracket and the starter-altenator strap to match the B&C alternator? I don't really have the equipment or know how to fabricate steel brackets. The material is at least 1/4 inch thick. >> >> Any help or suggestions? >> >> Thanks, >> Michael- >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 01, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: B&C Boss mounted altenator...
At 10:55 PM 8/31/2012, you wrote: I will call them, but it is not a problem of boss vs. case. My engine has a boss mount and the alternator from B&C is a boss mount. The problem is that they only supplied 1 of 3 pieces to the boss mount. Now it may be that the alternator is light enough that it doesn't need the other two pieces. I don't know if the tie to the starter is to support the starter or the alternator. And maybe the rear bracket isn't required for the B&C alternator. It that's the case it would be good for the instructions to mention this. Your boss mount kit as-shipped should have these parts in it: http://www.bandc.biz/ProductImages/BossMount.jpg There use to be a third part, a strut that ran from the prop-most end of the mount to a lug on the starter Emacs! The lug is still present on the B&C light weight starters. If I recall correctly, that extra strut and the companion mounting lug on the starter are artifacts of the time when generators had overhang moments to cry for . . . and a time when Lycoming factory mounting brackets were about 3/16" thick. At different points in time, the brackets were up-sized to the present 1/4" material and generators were replace with lighter alternators (but with, shall we say, intermediate values of overhang moment?) and replaced again with the modern, still lighter alternators common today. The B&C starter still replaces a Prestolite Pig on airplanes fitted with generators. Hence, the lug is present to accommodate that configuration. The lug would still be useful on the PA28-181 I used to fly a lot where the alternator was an alternator but one of those things we called a 'pancake' . . . large diameter and with significant overhang. The brackets were still 3/16" material and we would break one about once a year. Certainly do check with B&C but I think my recollection is correct in offering the notion that the strut between alternator and starter is no longer necessary in light of incremental changes of weight, size and robustness of the contemporary accessories. You mentioned that your attache kit had only one of three parts? There should be two structural components. The mount and a tension arm as illustrated in the image above taken from the B&C website. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 01, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: B&C Boss mounted altenator...
At 09:37 PM 8/31/2012, you wrote: Folks, I just got my "pre-owned" engine mounted to my RV-9A this week. The engine is an O320-D3G and it came out of a certified aircraft. It had a large certified alternator on it, made by Chrysler, interestingly enough. I purchased a B&C 40 Amp alternator to replace it. I thought it would be a direct replacement for the certified alternator. The certified alternator is boss mounted. When I took the old alternator off and tried to put the B&C alternator on, I immediately noticed that the mounting brackets were very different. The old brackets consisted of three separate brackets. There's a long bracket in the rear, then one that the alternator hangs directly under and finally a strap that ties the starter to alternator bracket. All three brackets are much shorter than the single bracket that came with the B&C alternator. I've enclosed a few pictures. You are the proud possessor of the "Pig-n-Pancake" starter-n-alternator configuration I cited in my earlier posting. "Proud" is not necessarily a given, if in error please forgive my presumption. The setback distance (pulley centerline to front face of mounting ears), overhang moments and tension arm geometries in the world of alternators is a bag of scrambled eggs. If your existing bracket is 1/4" material -AND- steel, then it's structurally sufficient. You can explore its retention by putting a long bolt through the bracket and the B&C alternator and use the intended belt to see if the bracket/alternator combination can be 'jeeped' for proper set-back by crafting a set of spacers. The spacers should be snug on the bolt and square, flat ends. Lathe-cut parts come to mind. If that works, check the tension arm geometry. That part is easier to make than the brackets but again, they're steel and not the nicest stuff to work with using ordinary shop tools. Depending on your $time$, talents and resources, you might be motivated to order the bolt-and-fly kit from B&C. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bernard Siu" <bsiu(at)simpex.com>
Subject: Secondary alternator connection VPX-Pro
Date: Sep 01, 2012
Hi all, I have a philosophy question regarding circuit layout using the VPX Pro... I couldn't find the answer through the archive search, so here's my first post. First, some background information: I am at the planning stage of my electrical system. I am using a single battery (PC680), Primary Alternator (B&C L60) and Secondary Alternator (B&C SD-8). Per the VPX manual, it is recommended to connect both alternators to the SWITCHED side of the battery contactor. In addition, both alternators should be connected to a SPDT (on-off-on) switch (VXP 5.20 p.35 Alternator switch). In the event of a Pri Alt failure (e.g. OV), the VPX can sense that and turn off the power to the alternator and notification will show up on the EFIS. At that point, I can flip the switch to the Sec. alt. and continue to provide limited power for the essential bus as planned. Certainly a workable approach and it is a very nice power control system by the way. On the other hand, per Nuckolls books Fig. 17-4, it is suggested that the SD-8 should be hooked directly to the battery (the UNSWITCHED side of the battery contactor) + adding a diode to the main bus to prevent the back flow of power to the main bus. Nuckolls' approach is very nicely explained in his book. This will prevent a single point failure (i.e. the battery contactor or the VPX itself). But then you always hear others said, follow the manufacturer's instructions. I would like to hear your thoughts, comments, philosophies, ideas especially those who has installed similar power configuration as I have using the VPX. Thanks! Bernie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 01, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Secondary alternator connection VPX-Pro
> But then you always hear others said, follow > the manufacturers instructions > The architecture described in Z-13/8 is a three-layer system that offers (1) Main alternator + Battery (2) Aux alternator + battery with planned load shedding and (3) Battery only with load shedding. The system described in the VPX manual is more like Figure Z-12 wherein you are offered (1A) Main alternator + Battery, (1B) Aux alternator + Battery and (2) Battery only. Load shedding is handled with a different control and management philosophy which I presume is described in the system documentation. Yes, if you are concerned about some feature that suggests deviation from the manufacturer's recommendations, you really need to take that up with the folks who did the system architecture. But let us know how those conversations drive your final decision. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Light pigtail
From: "rvg8tor" <rvg8tor(at)comcast.net>
Date: Sep 03, 2012
I think it is called a pigtail I originally wired my RV-8A to use Van's 75W halogen landing and taxi light system. I ran 16 AWG wire from a 15A breaker to the switch, the switch is set up as OFF-TAXI-LAND, so power only goes to either the landing light set (2 bulbs on each wing) or landing light set. I have decided to now go with a fancy LED landing taxi light. This light comes with a pigtail out of a circuit unit and the wire is 18AWG except the ground is 16AWG, only 1 ground for entire light sytem. I have wired this into the plane and it works fine but then I am thinking I need to go down to a 10A breaker. These lights pull under 3 amps each so not a lot of draw. Would I do okay to leave things as they are, one 16 AWG wire to the switch that in turn feeds either wires to the taxi light or wires to the landing light, all 16AWG. My only issue is with the wires going into the light housing, the power wires are 18AWG and the ground is 16 AWG. Perhaps an inline fuse at the transition would be in order to protect the short run of 18AWG wire? Now that I think about it the pigtail is only about 4" so maybe I am okay, and they only have one 16AWG wire as the return. The manufacturer recommended set up is two 10A breakers to two switches and one 16AWG ground as the return path. Sorry for the long post, this is late at night and I am half brainstorming my issue with this post. I appreciate any light one can shed, pun intended. Cheers -------- Mike "Nemo" Elliott RV-8A QB (Engine) www.mykitlog.com/rvg8tor Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382312#382312 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 03, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Light pigtail
The manufacturer recommended set up is two 10A breakers to two switches and one 16AWG ground as the return path. It would help to see the manufacturer's installation instructions along with any wiring diagrams offered. If these are LED fixtures, then 10A is WAAAaaayyy too big. Sorry for the long post, this is late at night and I am half brainstorming my issue with this post. I appreciate any light one can shed, pun intended. Need DATA on the proposed lighting fixtures. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Light pigtail
From: "rvg8tor" <rvg8tor(at)comcast.net>
Date: Sep 03, 2012
Attached are the instructions, I used for the install. They include a wire diagram. I am currently not going to hook up the Wig Wag feature, this was not planned when I wired the plane a couple years ago, I will add this feature after I am flying this year with any luck! Cheers -------- Mike "Nemo" Elliott RV-8A QB (Engine) www.mykitlog.com/rvg8tor Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382329#382329 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 03, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Light pigtail
At 10:36 AM 9/3/2012, you wrote: Attached are the instructions, I used for the install. They include a wire diagram. Hmmmm . . . the wiring is, shall we say, unconventional. Circuit protection is usually installed at the bus UPSTREAM of control switches. Assuming the stated current draw numbers are for EACH of TWO fixtures, then system demands for Landing lights is 4.4A and Taxi lights is 5.8A. Position lights would be something less than 1A average. The nominal wire sizing is a bit heavy, the whole system could be wired with 20AWG and breakered at 7A, or fused at 10A (Don't want to operate past the 1/4th derating for fuses in the Taxi light slot. Position lights could run from a 5A branch. While the control wires are probably properly sized for loads, it's a good practice not to wire airframe accessories with less that 22AWG just for general robustness and workability issues. I am currently not going to hook up the Wig Wag feature, this was not planned when I wired the plane a couple years ago, I will add this feature after I am flying this year with any luck! If your wires are in place, then the notion of downsizing breakers or fuses consistent with new system requirements is a reasonable thing to do. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Jean Curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Light pigtail
Date: Sep 03, 2012
Attached are the instructions, I used for the install. They include a wire diagram. Hmmmm . . . the wiring is, shall we say, unconventional. Circuit protection is usually installed at the bus UPSTREAM of control switches. Assuming the stated current draw numbers are for EACH of TWO fixtures, then system demands for Landing lights is 4.4A and Taxi lights is 5.8A. Position lights would be something less than 1A average. The nominal wire sizing is a bit heavy, the whole system could be wired with 20AWG and breakered at 7A, or fused at 10A (Don't want to operate past the 1/4th derating for fuses in the Taxi light slot. Position lights could run from a 5A branch. While the control wires are probably properly sized for loads, it's a good practice not to wire airframe accessories with less that 22AWG just for general robustness and workability issues. I am currently not going to hook up the Wig Wag feature, this was not planned when I wired the plane a couple years ago, I will add this feature after I am flying this year with any luck! If your wires are in place, then the notion of downsizing breakers or fuses consistent with new system requirements is a reasonable thing to do. Bob . . . Question: If I understand correctly the plan is to use the existing wiring, which was sized originally to the existing breakers. I understand that the breakers are oversize for the new lights, but why would it be suggested to lower the current rating size of the breaker, since it is there only to protect the wire? Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Reddogally(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 03, 2012
Subject: Seeking alternator troubleshooting advice
On the way home from OSH last month my RV6A started to indicate on the voltage meter readings fluctuating from 14+ to 12.4 or so. During the last two legs of the flight lasting a total of about 4 hours with all my avionics and usual accessories activated the voltage never dropped below 12.2.. A week or so after I returned to my home airport I took the plane around the pattern to check the voltages again. During taxi to the runway the voltage would indicate 12.2-4. After I pushed the throttle in for takeoff the voltage went to 14.2 and stayed there while flying at 75% power for 20 minutes or so. I thought the problem I had previously experienced had resolved itself. However, as soon as a reduced the throttle to descend for landing the voltage once again dropped to the 12's and fluctuated up and down. I am not the builder (second owner) so I am not sure if the alternator is internally or externally regulated. There are no manufacturer markings on the alternator and I do not see anything that looks like an external voltage regulator on the firewall. The back of the alternator has one large cable and three small wires. Two of the wires are clipped to the back of the alternator on thin posts at 90 degrees to each other and the third wire is attached the case of the alternator in what looks like a ground wire. The battery is less than a year old and indicates 12.4. The plane starts in a couple of turns. I have a spare alternator that came with the plane that is a Mitsubishi car alternator. I am wondering if I should just change out the alternator to try to solve the problem or are there other ways to determine the cause of the problem. Any suggestions are appreciated ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 03, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Seeking alternator troubleshooting advice
At 06:01 PM 9/3/2012, you wrote: On the way home from OSH last month my RV6A started to indicate on the voltage meter readings fluctuating from 14+ to 12.4 or so. During the last two legs of the flight lasting a total of about 4 hours with all my avionics and usual accessories activated the voltage never dropped below 12.2.. The voltage cannot exceed about 12.8 without the alternator functioning. The voltage cannot fall lower than what the battery will deliver given present loads and the battery's state of charge. Had your airplane been fitted with a low votlage warning light, it would have notified you of the fact that the alternator was not producing power. A week or so after I returned to my home airport I took the plane around the pattern to check the voltages again. During taxi to the runway the voltage would indicate 12.2-4. Which meant that your alternator speed was too low to produce regulated power at ground maneuvering RPMs (unlikely in the typical Lycoming installation) -OR- the alternator was not operating. Again, a low voltage warning light would be agitating for attention. After I pushed the throttle in for takeoff the voltage went to 14.2 and stayed there while flying at 75% power for 20 minutes or so. I thought the problem I had previously experienced had resolved itself. However, as soon as a reduced the throttle to descend for landing the voltage once again dropped to the 12's and fluctuated up and down. The alternator is suffering intermittent difficulties that prevents it from functioning as expected. I am not the builder (second owner) so I am not sure if the alternator is internally or externally regulated. There are no manufacturer markings on the alternator and I do not see anything that looks like an external voltage regulator on the firewall. The back of the alternator has one large cable and three small wires. Two of the wires are clipped to the back of the alternator on thin posts at 90 degrees to each other and the third wire is attached the case of the alternator in what looks like a ground wire. Sounds like the typical automotive, internally regulated alternator. The battery is less than a year old and indicates 12.4. The plane starts in a couple of turns. Battery good, alternator or alternator wiring bad. I have a spare alternator that came with the plane that is a Mitsubishi car alternator. I am wondering if I should just change out the alternator to try to solve the problem or are there other ways to determine the cause of the problem. The assuming no intermittent commands to the alternator causing it to be turned on and off under vibration, then the alternator is probably needing attention. You can do an experiment to install a jumper wire from the alternator B-terminal to the IGN terminal and see if the intermittent behavior goes away. Alternatively, you can change out the alternator to see if that fixes the problem. The earlier experiment is the easiest. Is your spare alternator identical to the one that's installed? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Reddogally(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 03, 2012
Subject: Re: Seeking alternator troubleshooting advice
The spare alternator looks to be identical to the faulty one except the spare one has a Mitsubishi logo on the case that I do not see on the installed one. The attachment mounts and wiring locations look to be the same and in the same locations. Thanks for the advice. I will give it a try tomorrow. Doug In a message dated 9/3/2012 7:37:59 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com writes: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 06:01 PM 9/3/2012, you wrote: On the way home from OSH last month my RV6A started to indicate on the voltage meter readings fluctuating from 14+ to 12.4 or so. During the last two legs of the flight lasting a total of about 4 hours with all my avionics and usual accessories activated the voltage never dropped below 12.2.. The voltage cannot exceed about 12.8 without the alternator functioning. The voltage cannot fall lower than what the battery will deliver given present loads and the battery's state of charge. Had your airplane been fitted with a low votlage warning light, it would have notified you of the fact that the alternator was not producing power. A week or so after I returned to my home airport I took the plane around the pattern to check the voltages again. During taxi to the runway the voltage would indicate 12.2-4. Which meant that your alternator speed was too low to produce regulated power at ground maneuvering RPMs (unlikely in the typical Lycoming installation) -OR- the alternator was not operating. Again, a low voltage warning light would be agitating for attention. After I pushed the throttle in for takeoff the voltage went to 14.2 and stayed there while flying at 75% power for 20 minutes or so. I thought the problem I had previously experienced had resolved itself. However, as soon as a reduced the throttle to descend for landing the voltage once again dropped to the 12's and fluctuated up and down. The alternator is suffering intermittent difficulties that prevents it from functioning as expected. I am not the builder (second owner) so I am not sure if the alternator is internally or externally regulated. There are no manufacturer markings on the alternator and I do not see anything that looks like an external voltage regulator on the firewall. The back of the alternator has one large cable and three small wires. Two of the wires are clipped to the back of the alternator on thin posts at 90 degrees to each other and the third wire is attached the case of the alternator in what looks like a ground wire. Sounds like the typical automotive, internally regulated alternator. The battery is less than a year old and indicates 12.4. The plane starts in a couple of turns. Battery good, alternator or alternator wiring bad. I have a spare alternator that came with the plane that is a Mitsubishi car alternator. I am wondering if I should just change out the alternator to try to solve the problem or are there other ways to determine the cause of the problem. The assuming no intermittent commands to the alternator causing it to be turned on and off under vibration, then the alternator is probably needing attention. You can do an experiment to install a jumper wire from the alternator B-terminal to the IGN terminal and see if the intermittent behavior goes away. Alternatively, you can change out the alternator to see if that fixes the problem. The earlier experiment is the easiest. Is your spare alternator identical to the one that's installed? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Light pigtail
From: "rvg8tor" <rvg8tor(at)comcast.net>
Date: Sep 04, 2012
mrspudandcompany(at)veriz wrote: > Attached are the instructions, I used for the install. They include > a wire diagram. > > Hmmmm . . . the wiring is, shall we say, unconventional. > Circuit protection is usually installed at the bus > UPSTREAM of control switches. Assuming the stated > current draw numbers are for EACH of TWO fixtures, then > system demands for Landing lights is 4.4A and Taxi lights > is 5.8A. Position lights would be something less than 1A > average. > > The nominal wire sizing is a bit heavy, the whole system > could be wired with 20AWG and breakered at 7A, or > fused at 10A (Don't want to operate past the 1/4th derating > for fuses in the Taxi light slot. Position lights could > run from a 5A branch. While the control wires are probably > properly sized for loads, it's a good practice not to wire > airframe accessories with less that 22AWG just for general > robustness and workability issues. > > I am currently not going to hook up the Wig Wag feature, this was > not planned when I wired the plane a couple years ago, I will add > this feature after I am flying this year with any luck! > > If your wires are in place, then the notion of > downsizing breakers or fuses consistent with new > system requirements is a reasonable thing to do. > > > Bob . . . > > > Question: If I understand correctly the plan is to use the > existing wiring, which was sized originally to the existing > breakers. I understand that the breakers are oversize for the new > lights, but why would it be suggested to lower the current > rating size of the breaker, since it is there only to protect the > wire? > > > Roger This is ultimately my question as well, to change the breaker is a bit of a pain at this point and since it does protect the wire I was hoping to leave the installation as is. I know the wire is way bigger than needed. My risk is the pigtail out of the light, the power wires are 18 AWG but they are very short. In a dead short, do you think the breaker would still pop before the 18AWG wires burned up? -------- Mike "Nemo" Elliott RV-8A QB (Engine) www.mykitlog.com/rvg8tor Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382379#382379 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Light pigtail
> Question: If I understand correctly the plan is to use the > existing wiring, which was sized originally to the existing > breakers. I understand that the breakers are oversize for the > new lights, but why would it be suggested to lower the current > rating size of the breaker, since it is there only to protect > the wire? > > > Roger This is ultimately my question as well, to change the breaker is a bit of a pain at this point and since it does protect the wire I was hoping to leave the installation as is. I know the wire is way bigger than needed. My risk is the pigtail out of the light, the power wires are 18 AWG but they are very short. In a dead short, do you think the breaker would still pop before the 18AWG wires burned up? Absolutely. Breakers actually don't even protect the wire but the wire's insulation. See: http://tinyurl.com/6qr72fr Leaving the breakers in place represents no risk to comfortable termination of flight under the worst case failures. Even if those wires DID burn up, what's the additional risk to an assembly that's already in trouble? Wire sizing and associated protection calls for considering a huge combination of factors for load dynamics, environment, and effects of any given failure. The philosophy for wire and protection sizing is VERY conservative consistent with not wasting a lot of time doing an FMEA for EACH protected branch. AC43-13 is technically correct but philosophically pedantic . . . but consider the authorship . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2012
From: mddickens(at)comcast.net
Subject: Backup Alternator Wiring
I am starting off with drawing Z-12 as a basis for my architecture and am w ondering if there would be an issue with connecting the backup alternator B lead to the battery side of the battery contactor instead of the starter c ontactor side. The field would also be powered and switched off of the E-Bu ss. The reason I am interested in doing this is to address the possibility of a battery contactor or master switch failure, so that the battery could be charged as I ran on the E-Buss. I=99ve never seen it wired this wa y, so I assume there=99s a problem with it, but I am not seeing it. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Backup Alternator Wiring
At 01:04 PM 9/4/2012, you wrote: I am starting off with drawing Z-12 as a basis for my architecture and am wondering if there would be an issue with connecting the backup alternator B lead to the battery side of the battery contactor instead of the starter contactor side. The field would also be powered and switched off of the E-Buss. The reason I am interested in doing this is to address the possibility of a battery contactor or master switch failure, so that the battery could be charged as I ran on the E-Buss. I've never seen it wired this way, so I assume there's a problem with it, but I am not seeing it. No 'problem' I perceive. It does violate the legacy design goal for "max cold" wiring when the battery contactor is open . . . your b-lead is always hot. But this is a minor if not insignificant worry. You'd need to be aware of it when working around the rear of your standby alternator . . . in cars it's recommended that one disconnect the (-) battery cable during maintenance ops. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2012
From: mddickens(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Backup Alternator Wiring
Thanks. Looking at it harder, I see that doing this really isn't necessary since the current would get back to the battery through the "back door", traveling through the main power buss across the e-buss diode and back upstream to the battery. Sound right? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2012 1:34:27 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Backup Alternator Wiring At 01:04 PM 9/4/2012, you wrote: I am starting off with drawing Z-12 as a basis for my architecture and am wondering if there would be an issue with connecting the backup alternator B lead to the battery side of the battery contactor instead of the starter contactor side. The field would also be powered and switched off of the E-Buss. The reason I am interested in doing this is to address the possibility of a battery contactor or master switch failure, so that the battery could be charged as I ran on the E-Buss. I've never seen it wired this way, so I assume there's a problem with it, but I am not seeing it. No 'problem' I perceive. It does violate the legacy design goal for "max cold" wiring when the battery contactor is open . . . your b-lead is always hot. But this is a minor if not insignificant worry. You'd need to be aware of it when working around the rear of your standby alternator . . . in cars it's recommended that one disconnect the (-) battery cable during maintenance ops. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Backup Alternator Wiring
At 01:56 PM 9/4/2012, you wrote: Thanks. Looking at it harder, I see that doing this really isn't necessary since the current would get back to the battery through the "back door", traveling through the main power buss across the e-buss diode and back upstream to the battery. Sound right? No, the e-bus diode is not intended to be a charge-path to the battery. The e-bus is intended to be an ENDURANCE bus that powers only those devices need to get you to airport in sight at intended destination. In other words, better endurance battery only than that of fuel aboard. If you have an alternator operating, then plan-b loads can include a combination of e-bus -AND- main bus loads that do not exceed alternator capability. But if that alternator is not available, then the E-BUS PLAN-C takes effect. The e-bus is probably the least understood feature of the z-figures. The design goal is to prevent any single failure of an electrical system component from becoming a 'wet-armpits' situation. This means NOT having to operate on your flight-bag hand-helds for continued flight to airport of intended destination. You ARE planning flight-bag backups . . . right? http://tinyurl.com/4xjhgly This means that the e-bus is not intended to keep everything except the kitchen sink running. It's intended to keep the flight-bag backups in comfortable reserve. Hence the small normal feed diode and relatively small feeder to the e-bus. Figure Z-13/8 supports an 8A e-bus while holding the battery in complete reserve for descent and approach to landing. Wiring your 20A pad driven alternator as you described suggests that the e-bus loads can go up to 20 amps . . . with appropriately upsized feeders. http://tinyurl.com/756ydec But in no case should design goals include charging the battery through the e-bus normal feed path diode. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2012
From: mddickens(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Backup Alternator Wiring
Yes, of course, as I have for over 30 years, but I am asking if my reading of the diagram is correct that the current would travel back up the e-buss to provide any charging to the battery, or is the forward rating of the diode not sufficient for this. One is a philosophical discussion (and I agree with you) and the other is an electrical discussion, which is where my question came from. If I'm wrong that the battery gets no charging through this path, I'll simply plan on putting the standby alternator B lead on the battery side of the battery contactor, with the understanding that the B lead will be hot all the time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2012 2:47:06 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Backup Alternator Wiring At 01:56 PM 9/4/2012, you wrote: Thanks. Looking at it harder, I see that doing this really isn't necessary since the current would get back to the battery through the "back door", traveling through the main power buss across the e-buss diode and back upstream to the battery. Sound right? No, the e-bus diode is not intended to be a charge-path to the battery. The e-bus is intended to be an ENDURANCE bus that powers only those devices need to get you to airport in sight at intended destination. In other words, better endurance battery only than that of fuel aboard. If you have an alternator operating, then plan-b loads can include a combination of e-bus -AND- main bus loads that do not exceed alternator capability. But if that alternator is not available, then the E-BUS PLAN-C takes effect. The e-bus is probably the least understood feature of the z-figures. The design goal is to prevent any single failure of an electrical system component from becoming a 'wet-armpits' situation. This means NOT having to operate on your flight-bag hand-helds for continued flight to airport of intended destination. You ARE planning flight-bag backups . . . right? http://tinyurl.com/4xjhgly This means that the e-bus is not intended to keep everything except the kitchen sink running. It's intended to keep the flight-bag backups in comfortable reserve. Hence the small normal feed diode and relatively small feeder to the e-bus. Figure Z-13/8 supports an 8A e-bus while holding the battery in complete reserve for descent and approach to landing. Wiring your 20A pad driven alternator as you described suggests that the e-bus loads can go up to 20 amps . . . with appropriately upsized feeders. http://tinyurl.com/756ydec But in no case should design goals include charging the battery through the e-bus normal feed path diode. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Battery Tender performance
I have known this for some time (since the time I gathered the plots at: http://tinyurl.com/8o65jha and http://tinyurl.com/9paguuy A more recent plot I published a few days ago for my Battery Tender Jr. had a recharge curve for 12 a.h. battery that looked like this: Emacs! Not much of a top-off cycle. No absorption dwell . . . So I ran some new plots on Ron's 12 a.h. batteries and my 10 year-old Battery Tender. Here's what I got. Emacs! These plots confirm the question as to whether batteries 'charged' with the Battery Tender really get topped off. Two cycles of Battery Tender only recharge produced the red and green plots. A third cycle was augmented with a 3 hour top-off which was still drawing about 150 mA at 14.5 volts. The third, topped off cycle stored about 60 minutes more service at a 1.2A rate than for the un-augmented cycles. I've given away all my SEC1562 chargers to family members. Got a new one ordered yesterday. I'll run some charge/discharge cycles on the same battery. I think we'll find that the Minders and Tenders are not designed to top off SVLA batteries of any size. Does that mean they're 'bad' chargers? No, in instance under study the Battery Tender still put ~90% of the battery's total capacity back in storage. I've used the Battery Tender to charge and maintain a family of instrumentation batteries for years. I retired a couple of test batteries last year that were over 10 years old and tested to better than 75% of new. So it MIGHT be said that cycling a battery less aggressively is good for service life . . . but for sure, the battery maintainer products are best used to store batteries that are fully charged when put away. The next chapter will be written when the new 1562 gets here. Given the very reasonable price ($20) it may well be that the SEC1562A is about the best value out there for a top-off charger-maintainer. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Backup Alternator Wiring
At 03:03 PM 9/4/2012, you wrote: >Yes, of course, as I have for over 30 years, but I am asking if my >reading of the diagram is correct that the current would travel back >up the e-buss to provide any charging to the battery, or is the >forward rating of the diode not sufficient for this. One is a >philosophical discussion (and I agree with you) and the other is an >electrical discussion, which is where my question came from. If I'm >wrong that the battery gets no charging through this path, I'll >simply plan on putting the standby alternator B lead on the battery >side of the battery contactor, with the understanding that the B >lead will be hot all the time. The diode adds a voltage drop that hampers full charge of the battery . . . but probabilities suggest that battery was fully charged when the main alternator failed. So if the diode and associated wiring are beefy enough to carry output of both alternators as potential recharge current + e-bus loads . . . then yeah . . . it plays as a low risk mode-D for system operation. We're really thrashing a will-o-the-wisp in the constellation of hazards to flight. Electrical system failures figure in a very small percentage of incidents that bend airplanes or people. Figure Z-12 is installed in thousands of TC aircraft and Z-11 is installed in tens of thousands of TC aircraft . . . admittedly, the FEMA studies on these aircraft were blessed more than 50 years ago . . . but over the history of batteries and alternators on flying machines, main contactor failure rates are so low as to be statistically insignificant for cost of ownership and risks. Charging the battery though the e-bus normal feed path are requires that all the components be sized for worst case current flows. In this case it would be at least full output of the main alternator combined with an autoswitched SB alternator output feeding e-bus loads + battery recharge loads. If this is a design goal, it can be done. Which begs the question. How will you know when a contactor has faiied? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2012
Subject: Re: Battery Tender performance
From: rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us
Hi Bob Thx. for taking the time and effort to share your findings. Again the batteries I was referring to were abused and discharged repeatedly below 12.4 volts. It would be interesting to see the results you achieve if you use the chargers I sent you. They are 500mA constant current chargers that do nothing more than turn off ~ 15.4 volts, but that allows a reasonable dwell above the 13.7 float voltage. Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2012
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Battery Tender performance
Bob, your previous posts on this topic of using a "Battery Tender" as a "charger" was the key to helping me unravel a set of problems I was having with my Odyssey 680s. Just wanted to say thanks and to share my experience if others may find it useful. I have a Z-14 with 2 680s. Very early in my build I bought 2 680s (which really weren't needed at the time) to ease design of the battery box but they were actually used very little. They were charged a few times and occasionally maintained (hooked up overnight even though they had not been discharged) with the brand name "Battery Tender". A few years later when I was 90% done with 90% to go, I decided to get fresh batteries (not quite at the same time and these weren't needed at the time either). These batteries were used quite a bit in panel testing and such. These were also charged and maintained with the battery tender (many cycles). When I finally got to first flight, I found that neither of the new batteries would turn over the IO540 on my RV10. When both batteries were cross fed, no problem but alone, neither battery could quite turn the cold engine over. Per Bob's posts, I suspected that use of the "Tender" was my problem. A trip to Walmart turned up a suitable charger with settings for Gel vs Lead vs (glass mat?). One charge and now one of the new batteries was a tiger and the other got a lot better. The way I intended to use my 2 batteries was to normally use one to power the EFISs and most of the rest of the avionics. The other was for starting. After start, the batteries would be cross fed. This now worked but my avionics panel would start to go dim after 5 minutes or so unless the engine was started and the alternators were online. I was hoping for more. After much data collection, a carbon pile tester, and some additional field experience it turned out that the batteries I bought some 4 or 5 years ago were still in great shape once charged with the new charger. Furthermore, 1 of the new batteries seemed ruined in the sense that the other 3 batteries consistently outperformed it and I found it unsuitable for either position in the aircraft. It appeared that repeated discharge and charge with only the Battery Tender permanently reduced the capacity of 1 of my new batteries. It also appeared that 4 or 5 years of aging on the shelf in a more or less fully charged state was not as bad as repeated use and undercharging with a Battery Tender/maintainer. Further reinforcing these observations, at my first condition inspection I decided to swap in the better of my 2 newer batteries. for the first year, I had been flying with my 2 older batteries. Thought my carbon pile tester had bellied up, I found that my 2 older batteries and one of my new batteries all had the same voltage when fully charged with no load. When I swapped out my oldest battery for my best new battery it turns out it didn't perform quite as well (the engine would not always turn over on it). I went back to the 2 older batteries and everything works as intended. I've since set aside the battery tender knowing that if I have a charged battery on the shelf, I could probably use it to maintain the full charge. But the Walmart charger is my main charging tool. Now that I'm flying regularly there is little need for charging and my Z-14 is performing exactly as desired (though I haven't had any kind of electrical component failure to test its failure tolerance). I'm quite confident behind my 100% electrical panel in IFR operations. (I do have 2 mags which are refreshingly retro in this microprocessor world - they are electromagnetic mechanical wonders!) Thanks again Bob, Bill Watson N215TG On 9/4/2012 5:36 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > I have known this for some time (since the time I gathered > the plots at: http://tinyurl.com/8o65jha > and http://tinyurl.com/9paguuy > > These plots confirm the question as to whether batteries 'charged' with > the Battery Tender really get topped off. Two cycles of Battery Tender > only recharge produced the red and green plots. A third cycle was > augmented with a 3 hour top-off which was still drawing about 150 mA > at 14.5 volts. > > The third, topped off cycle stored about 60 minutes more service > at a 1.2A rate than for the un-augmented cycles. > > I've given away all my SEC1562 chargers to family members. > Got a new one ordered yesterday. I'll run some charge/discharge > cycles on the same battery. I think we'll find that the Minders > and Tenders are not designed to top off SVLA batteries of any > size. > > Does that mean they're 'bad' chargers? No, in instance under > study the Battery Tender still put ~90% of the battery's total > capacity back in storage. > > I've used the Battery Tender to charge and maintain a family > of instrumentation batteries for years. I retired a couple > of test batteries last year that were over 10 years old > and tested to better than 75% of new. So it MIGHT be said > that cycling a battery less aggressively is good for > service life . . . but for sure, the battery maintainer > products are best used to store batteries that are fully > charged when put away. > > The next chapter will be written when the new 1562 gets > here. Given the very reasonable price ($20) it may well > be that the SEC1562A is about the best value out there > for a top-off charger-maintainer. > > Bob . . . > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2012
Subject: Re: Battery Tender performance
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
Bill, next time you are out at the hangar and think about it, could you see what the manufacturer and model are of your successful Walmart charger? On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 9:20 PM, Bill Watson wrote: > Bob, your previous posts on this topic of using a "Battery Tender" as a > "charger" was the key to helping me unravel a set of problems I was having > with my Odyssey 680s. Just wanted to say thanks and to share my experience > if others may find it useful. > > I have a Z-14 with 2 680s. Very early in my build I bought 2 680s (which > really weren't needed at the time) to ease design of the battery box but > they were actually used very little. They were charged a few times and > occasionally maintained (hooked up overnight even though they had not been > discharged) with the brand name "Battery Tender". A few years later when I > was 90% done with 90% to go, I decided to get fresh batteries (not quite at > the same time and these weren't needed at the time either). These batteries > were used quite a bit in panel testing and such. These were also charged > and maintained with the battery tender (many cycles). > > When I finally got to first flight, I found that neither of the new > batteries would turn over the IO540 on my RV10. When both batteries were > cross fed, no problem but alone, neither battery could quite turn the cold > engine over. Per Bob's posts, I suspected that use of the "Tender" was my > problem. A trip to Walmart turned up a suitable charger with settings for > Gel vs Lead vs (glass mat?). One charge and now one of the new batteries > was a tiger and the other got a lot better. > > The way I intended to use my 2 batteries was to normally use one to power > the EFISs and most of the rest of the avionics. The other was for starting. > After start, the batteries would be cross fed. This now worked but my > avionics panel would start to go dim after 5 minutes or so unless the engine > was started and the alternators were online. I was hoping for more. > > After much data collection, a carbon pile tester, and some additional field > experience it turned out that the batteries I bought some 4 or 5 years ago > were still in great shape once charged with the new charger. Furthermore, 1 > of the new batteries seemed ruined in the sense that the other 3 batteries > consistently outperformed it and I found it unsuitable for either position > in the aircraft. > > It appeared that repeated discharge and charge with only the Battery Tender > permanently reduced the capacity of 1 of my new batteries. It also > appeared that 4 or 5 years of aging on the shelf in a more or less fully > charged state was not as bad as repeated use and undercharging with a > Battery Tender/maintainer. > > Further reinforcing these observations, at my first condition inspection I > decided to swap in the better of my 2 newer batteries. for the first year, > I had been flying with my 2 older batteries. Thought my carbon pile tester > had bellied up, I found that my 2 older batteries and one of my new > batteries all had the same voltage when fully charged with no load. When > I swapped out my oldest battery for my best new battery it turns out it > didn't perform quite as well (the engine would not always turn over on it). > I went back to the 2 older batteries and everything works as intended. > > I've since set aside the battery tender knowing that if I have a charged > battery on the shelf, I could probably use it to maintain the full charge. > But the Walmart charger is my main charging tool. Now that I'm flying > regularly there is little need for charging and my Z-14 is performing > exactly as desired (though I haven't had any kind of electrical component > failure to test its failure tolerance). I'm quite confident behind my 100% > electrical panel in IFR operations. > > (I do have 2 mags which are refreshingly retro in this microprocessor world > - they are electromagnetic mechanical wonders!) > > Thanks again Bob, > Bill Watson > N215TG > > On 9/4/2012 5:36 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > I have known this for some time (since the time I gathered > the plots at: http://tinyurl.com/8o65jha and http://tinyurl.com/9paguuy > > These plots confirm the question as to whether batteries 'charged' with > the Battery Tender really get topped off. Two cycles of Battery Tender > only recharge produced the red and green plots. A third cycle was > augmented with a 3 hour top-off which was still drawing about 150 mA > at 14.5 volts. > > The third, topped off cycle stored about 60 minutes more service > at a 1.2A rate than for the un-augmented cycles. > > I've given away all my SEC1562 chargers to family members. > Got a new one ordered yesterday. I'll run some charge/discharge > cycles on the same battery. I think we'll find that the Minders > and Tenders are not designed to top off SVLA batteries of any > size. > > Does that mean they're 'bad' chargers? No, in instance under > study the Battery Tender still put ~90% of the battery's total > capacity back in storage. > > I've used the Battery Tender to charge and maintain a family > of instrumentation batteries for years. I retired a couple > of test batteries last year that were over 10 years old > and tested to better than 75% of new. So it MIGHT be said > that cycling a battery less aggressively is good for > service life . . . but for sure, the battery maintainer > products are best used to store batteries that are fully > charged when put away. > > The next chapter will be written when the new 1562 gets > here. Given the very reasonable price ($20) it may well > be that the SEC1562A is about the best value out there > for a top-off charger-maintainer. > > Bob . . . > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Date: 09/04/12 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2012
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Battery Tender performance
Yep, will do tomorrow. Bill On 9/4/2012 10:00 PM, Jared Yates wrote: > > Bill, next time you are out at the hangar and think about it, could > you see what the manufacturer and model are of your successful Walmart > charger? > > On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 9:20 PM, Bill Watson wrote: >> Bob, your previous posts on this topic of using a "Battery Tender" as a >> "charger" was the key to helping me unravel a set of problems I was having >> with my Odyssey 680s. Just wanted to say thanks and to share my experience >> if others may find it useful. >> >> I have a Z-14 with 2 680s. Very early in my build I bought 2 680s (which >> really weren't needed at the time) to ease design of the battery box but >> they were actually used very little. They were charged a few times and >> occasionally maintained (hooked up overnight even though they had not been >> discharged) with the brand name "Battery Tender". A few years later when I >> was 90% done with 90% to go, I decided to get fresh batteries (not quite at >> the same time and these weren't needed at the time either). These batteries >> were used quite a bit in panel testing and such. These were also charged >> and maintained with the battery tender (many cycles). >> >> When I finally got to first flight, I found that neither of the new >> batteries would turn over the IO540 on my RV10. When both batteries were >> cross fed, no problem but alone, neither battery could quite turn the cold >> engine over. Per Bob's posts, I suspected that use of the "Tender" was my >> problem. A trip to Walmart turned up a suitable charger with settings for >> Gel vs Lead vs (glass mat?). One charge and now one of the new batteries >> was a tiger and the other got a lot better. >> >> The way I intended to use my 2 batteries was to normally use one to power >> the EFISs and most of the rest of the avionics. The other was for starting. >> After start, the batteries would be cross fed. This now worked but my >> avionics panel would start to go dim after 5 minutes or so unless the engine >> was started and the alternators were online. I was hoping for more. >> >> After much data collection, a carbon pile tester, and some additional field >> experience it turned out that the batteries I bought some 4 or 5 years ago >> were still in great shape once charged with the new charger. Furthermore, 1 >> of the new batteries seemed ruined in the sense that the other 3 batteries >> consistently outperformed it and I found it unsuitable for either position >> in the aircraft. >> >> It appeared that repeated discharge and charge with only the Battery Tender >> permanently reduced the capacity of 1 of my new batteries. It also >> appeared that 4 or 5 years of aging on the shelf in a more or less fully >> charged state was not as bad as repeated use and undercharging with a >> Battery Tender/maintainer. >> >> Further reinforcing these observations, at my first condition inspection I >> decided to swap in the better of my 2 newer batteries. for the first year, >> I had been flying with my 2 older batteries. Thought my carbon pile tester >> had bellied up, I found that my 2 older batteries and one of my new >> batteries all had the same voltage when fully charged with no load. When >> I swapped out my oldest battery for my best new battery it turns out it >> didn't perform quite as well (the engine would not always turn over on it). >> I went back to the 2 older batteries and everything works as intended. >> >> I've since set aside the battery tender knowing that if I have a charged >> battery on the shelf, I could probably use it to maintain the full charge. >> But the Walmart charger is my main charging tool. Now that I'm flying >> regularly there is little need for charging and my Z-14 is performing >> exactly as desired (though I haven't had any kind of electrical component >> failure to test its failure tolerance). I'm quite confident behind my 100% >> electrical panel in IFR operations. >> >> (I do have 2 mags which are refreshingly retro in this microprocessor world >> - they are electromagnetic mechanical wonders!) >> >> Thanks again Bob, >> Bill Watson >> N215TG >> >> On 9/4/2012 5:36 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> I have known this for some time (since the time I gathered >> the plots at: http://tinyurl.com/8o65jha and http://tinyurl.com/9paguuy >> >> These plots confirm the question as to whether batteries 'charged' with >> the Battery Tender really get topped off. Two cycles of Battery Tender >> only recharge produced the red and green plots. A third cycle was >> augmented with a 3 hour top-off which was still drawing about 150 mA >> at 14.5 volts. >> >> The third, topped off cycle stored about 60 minutes more service >> at a 1.2A rate than for the un-augmented cycles. >> >> I've given away all my SEC1562 chargers to family members. >> Got a new one ordered yesterday. I'll run some charge/discharge >> cycles on the same battery. I think we'll find that the Minders >> and Tenders are not designed to top off SVLA batteries of any >> size. >> >> Does that mean they're 'bad' chargers? No, in instance under >> study the Battery Tender still put ~90% of the battery's total >> capacity back in storage. >> >> I've used the Battery Tender to charge and maintain a family >> of instrumentation batteries for years. I retired a couple >> of test batteries last year that were over 10 years old >> and tested to better than 75% of new. So it MIGHT be said >> that cycling a battery less aggressively is good for >> service life . . . but for sure, the battery maintainer >> products are best used to store batteries that are fully >> charged when put away. >> >> The next chapter will be written when the new 1562 gets >> here. Given the very reasonable price ($20) it may well >> be that the SEC1562A is about the best value out there >> for a top-off charger-maintainer. >> >> Bob . . . >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Date: 09/04/12 >> >> >> >> >> > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery Tender performance
At 06:30 PM 9/4/2012, you wrote: >Hi Bob > >Thx. for taking the time and effort to share your findings. > >Again the batteries I was referring to were abused and discharged >repeatedly below 12.4 volts. Will they accept a charge at all? If so, the only thing I'm aware of that might recover them to some degree is a couple of deep discharge/charge cycles. Concord suggests you can put a LOT of volts on a battery that won't accept any charge until it's recharge current rises above some nominal value . . . I think it was a couple amps. Then proceed with two or three deep cycles and measure capacity on last cycle. If not 'recovered' to flight-worthy levels, then the battery is 'trash'. That's about 80% of new. Of course, you can settle for less. >It would be interesting to see the results you achieve if you use >the chargers I sent you. They are 500mA constant current chargers >that do nothing more than turn off ~ 15.4 volts, but that allows a >reasonable dwell above the 13.7 float voltage. The battery maintenance devices did too but they turned off sooner. I don't know if I've still got them around. I had no interest in using them. I'll see what I can find. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery Tender performance
At 06:28 PM 9/4/2012, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Sorry if I missed it, but could you define tender vs maintainer vs >smart charger vs old style charger in terms of expected charge >profiles for typical batteries used in OBAM aircraft. Legacy chargers did not change much in terms of utility beginning with devices like this: [] I owned one of these things about 1955. It was stronger than a 'trickle charger' . . . about 3A as I recall and would recharge a dead battery overnight. But it had ZERO controls. It was a constant current charger that would boil a battery dry if left on after the battery achieved full charge. Modern incarnations of this philosophy are much more robust. Will crank an engine and certainly charged a battery much faster. They might even include a clock-works timer to shut the thing off after some period of time to prevent severe overcharging. Here's some examples of robust 'manually controlled' chargers . . . http://tinyurl.com/cljbyur http://tinyurl.com/cd437g2 The advent of microelectronics prompted more sophisticated charger designs that fall into two classes. Charger/maintainers like this series of microprocessor controlled devices. Where operator intervention was not needed to prevent overcharging. These generally include microprocessor controls programmed to conduct a good approximation of the ideal recharge protocol http://tinyurl.com/9s7kpww for constant current bulk charge, constant voltage dwell for absorption cycle, followed by a drop to some value just above open circuit voltage to offset the battery's internal losses . . .i.e. 'maintain' it forever. These are the current crop of smart chargers. Then we come to "maintainers" . . . constant current charge to some endpoint generally above 14.0 volts followed by a drop to maintenance level of just over 13.0 volts. Products like Battery Tender Item image Battery Minder are typical "wall warts" that will charge a battery to just short of full before they drop to the maintenance mode. The two products I'm comparing for performance are the Battery Tender and an SEM1562A Schumacher charger/maintainer (as soon as it gets here). Bottom line is that all three classes of charger are readily available today. The manual devices can be quite robust but will cook a battery if used improperly. The charger/maintainers are automatic and represent a relatively goof-proof way to charge a battery and store it. The maintainers will also charge albeit to less than 100% of battery's rated capacity but they too will maintain the battery nicely while being stored. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fusing
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Sep 05, 2012
Much has been written about fusing, and yes, the approach is to "fuse to protect the wire and not the end equipment. But there is room for what is called "Intrinsically Safe Wiring" that requires no fuse by definition. A circuit can be "Intrinsically Safe" if that circuit can never provide enough short-circuit current, or even spark energy to ignite the hazard of interest (ethylene for most of us). Now this is not so esoteric, since in many circuits, including sensors, memories small devices and motors, very bright LEDs, the "intrinsically-safe" current levels are quite usable. For simple LEDs the current limiting means would typically be at the bus. See this for some background: http://www.mtl-inst.com/images/uploads/datasheets/App_Notes/AN9003.pdf For your boy's science project: How these standard were developed might be of interest (old manuals showed this): Make a tiny grounded container (like a metal bottle cap) with a few drops of gasoline (or whatever material is of interest). Then at a range of temperatures, at a range of voltages and currents, touch the + lead to spark on the rim of the tiny container. Below certain limits, The intrinsically safe limits, nothing happens. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382439#382439 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mark Wesson" <Mark(at)wessonair.com>
Subject: Z-11 I think
Date: Sep 05, 2012
I am in the process of designing the electrical for my RV-9 build and have a few questions. I think I started with the Z-11 drawing but have made so many small changes using a little of each that I don't know what to call it at this point. However I am using a single alt. with an E-Bus. Would I be better off with a E-Bus relay rather than a switch only? Seems better to have the wire running all the way to the swith as a ground only rather than a hot there and back. During normal flight operation is the E-Bus switch left on so that power is direct rather than through the diode. The diode seems inefficient since it generates heat. Why are all the drawings showing the simple on-off switches as on-on S700-1-3 rather than the 1-2? I am sure I will have additional questions as I progress. Mark Wesson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-11 I think
>However I am using a single alt. with an E-Bus. >Would I be better off with a E-Bus relay rather than a switch only? >Seems better to have the wire running all the way to the swith as a >ground only rather than a hot there and back. If your total e-bus loads can be supported through the 7A fuse, then that size of always-hot feeder from the battery bus does not violate legacy design goals for crash safety. Adding the relay is fine too . . . except that it adds a parasitic load on the order of .15 A . . . and one of the goals for the e-bus was to minimize if not eliminate such loads. But it's your choice commensurate with your own design goals. >During normal flight operation is the E-Bus switch left on so that >power is direct rather than through the diode. The diode seems >inefficient since it generates heat. No. Consider the operating requirements for power in every device qualified for commercial aircraft. The device must perform down pass battery-dead voltage levels (9V in a 14v system). When the alternator is running, main bus is 14.2 or better which puts the e- bus at 13.6 or so . . . nice source. When the alternator is off, the MAX voltage available to anything in the airplane is what ever the battery will provide . . . 12.5 volts and DOWN. Hence the suggestion that a slightly depressed e-bus is not an operational concern. Now, if your e-bus is configured for HOURS of operations battery only (hopefully equal to or greater than duration of fuel aboard) then the e-bus loads are small . . . 3-6 amps. 6 amps droped across a diode is about 4 watts of heat . . . insignificant when a 40-60 amp alternator is providing a 500 to 750 watt source of operating power. >Why are all the drawings showing the simple on-off switches as on-on >S700-1-3 rather than the 1-2? You can go buy 1-2 if you like. I used to stock the 1-3 which serviced both purposes and to keep line-items of inventory low, I suggested that the 1-3 was a good choice for BOTH slots both in terms of my inventory and your spares. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 2012
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Battery Tender performance
The charger from Walmart is a Shumacher: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/60509998/DSC04046.JPG There were several models but this one seemed to be the right one for my Odyssey 680s Here is a blurry shot of my Battery Tender Plus: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/60509998/DSC04048.JPG Bill On 9/4/2012 10:00 PM, Jared Yates wrote: > > Bill, next time you are out at the hangar and think about it, could > you see what the manufacturer and model are of your successful Walmart > charger? > > On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 9:20 PM, Bill Watson wrote: >> Bob, your previous posts on this topic of using a "Battery Tender" as a >> "charger" was the key to helping me unravel a set of problems I was having >> with my Odyssey 680s. Just wanted to say thanks and to share my experience >> if others may find it useful. >> >> I have a Z-14 with 2 680s. Very early in my build I bought 2 680s (which >> really weren't needed at the time) to ease design of the battery box but >> they were actually used very little. They were charged a few times and >> occasionally maintained (hooked up overnight even though they had not been >> discharged) with the brand name "Battery Tender". A few years later when I >> was 90% done with 90% to go, I decided to get fresh batteries (not quite at >> the same time and these weren't needed at the time either). These batteries >> were used quite a bit in panel testing and such. These were also charged >> and maintained with the battery tender (many cycles). >> >> When I finally got to first flight, I found that neither of the new >> batteries would turn over the IO540 on my RV10. When both batteries were >> cross fed, no problem but alone, neither battery could quite turn the cold >> engine over. Per Bob's posts, I suspected that use of the "Tender" was my >> problem. A trip to Walmart turned up a suitable charger with settings for >> Gel vs Lead vs (glass mat?). One charge and now one of the new batteries >> was a tiger and the other got a lot better. >> >> The way I intended to use my 2 batteries was to normally use one to power >> the EFISs and most of the rest of the avionics. The other was for starting. >> After start, the batteries would be cross fed. This now worked but my >> avionics panel would start to go dim after 5 minutes or so unless the engine >> was started and the alternators were online. I was hoping for more. >> >> After much data collection, a carbon pile tester, and some additional field >> experience it turned out that the batteries I bought some 4 or 5 years ago >> were still in great shape once charged with the new charger. Furthermore, 1 >> of the new batteries seemed ruined in the sense that the other 3 batteries >> consistently outperformed it and I found it unsuitable for either position >> in the aircraft. >> >> It appeared that repeated discharge and charge with only the Battery Tender >> permanently reduced the capacity of 1 of my new batteries. It also >> appeared that 4 or 5 years of aging on the shelf in a more or less fully >> charged state was not as bad as repeated use and undercharging with a >> Battery Tender/maintainer. >> >> Further reinforcing these observations, at my first condition inspection I >> decided to swap in the better of my 2 newer batteries. for the first year, >> I had been flying with my 2 older batteries. Thought my carbon pile tester >> had bellied up, I found that my 2 older batteries and one of my new >> batteries all had the same voltage when fully charged with no load. When >> I swapped out my oldest battery for my best new battery it turns out it >> didn't perform quite as well (the engine would not always turn over on it). >> I went back to the 2 older batteries and everything works as intended. >> >> I've since set aside the battery tender knowing that if I have a charged >> battery on the shelf, I could probably use it to maintain the full charge. >> But the Walmart charger is my main charging tool. Now that I'm flying >> regularly there is little need for charging and my Z-14 is performing >> exactly as desired (though I haven't had any kind of electrical component >> failure to test its failure tolerance). I'm quite confident behind my 100% >> electrical panel in IFR operations. >> >> (I do have 2 mags which are refreshingly retro in this microprocessor world >> - they are electromagnetic mechanical wonders!) >> >> Thanks again Bob, >> Bill Watson >> N215TG >> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mark Wesson" <Mark(at)wessonair.com>
Subject: Z-11 I think
Date: Sep 05, 2012
The bis question now is what should I put on the E-Buss. I think I can survive without a GPS or Xpndr. I do think I want my Coms and NAV and since that is a SL-30 I will leave the 430W off. Then my back-up Dynon D-6 draws very little. I can power up the audio as is is cheap power. This leaves me with E-Buss Garmin GMA 240 540 MA @ 13.8v = 7.5 watts 1A Fuse Garmin SL-30 Com 5A Fuse Nav 3A Fuse Dynon D-6 1A @ 13.8v = 13 watts 1A Fuse Total max 10 Amps which seems like smaller than the 7A for the E-Buss without relay. Am I missing anything essential on the E-buss? I am not sure I would want this on a 7a fuse though. ?? Mark Wesson President / Owner mark(at)wessonair.com Ph # 407-831-5061 Fax # 407-831-2570 http://www.wessonair.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 12:08 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-11 I think --> >However I am using a single alt. with an E-Bus. >Would I be better off with a E-Bus relay rather than a switch only? >Seems better to have the wire running all the way to the swith as a >ground only rather than a hot there and back. If your total e-bus loads can be supported through the 7A fuse, then that size of always-hot feeder from the battery bus does not violate legacy design goals for crash safety. Adding the relay is fine too . . . except that it adds a parasitic load on the order of .15 A . . . and one of the goals for the e-bus was to minimize if not eliminate such loads. But it's your choice commensurate with your own design goals. >During normal flight operation is the E-Bus switch left on so that >power is direct rather than through the diode. The diode seems >inefficient since it generates heat. No. Consider the operating requirements for power in every device qualified for commercial aircraft. The device must perform down pass battery-dead voltage levels (9V in a 14v system). When the alternator is running, main bus is 14.2 or better which puts the e- bus at 13.6 or so . . . nice source. When the alternator is off, the MAX voltage available to anything in the airplane is what ever the battery will provide . . . 12.5 volts and DOWN. Hence the suggestion that a slightly depressed e-bus is not an operational concern. Now, if your e-bus is configured for HOURS of operations battery only (hopefully equal to or greater than duration of fuel aboard) then the e-bus loads are small . . . 3-6 amps. 6 amps droped across a diode is about 4 watts of heat . . . insignificant when a 40-60 amp alternator is providing a 500 to 750 watt source of operating power. >Why are all the drawings showing the simple on-off switches as on-on >S700-1-3 rather than the 1-2? You can go buy 1-2 if you like. I used to stock the 1-3 which serviced both purposes and to keep line-items of inventory low, I suggested that the 1-3 was a good choice for BOTH slots both in terms of my inventory and your spares. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 19v laptop power in vehicles
We've had some discussions on the List about powering lap-tops without a great mish-mash of inverters, ac mains power supplies and their attendant cables. Here's a gizmo I bought these two offers off eBay: http://tinyurl.com/bn3nkw9 http://tinyurl.com/7vwr4ur at very reasonable prices. I mounted the fan to the up-converter heatsink thusly. http://tinyurl.com/c7jc92s http://tinyurl.com/bqqxhy8 http://tinyurl.com/c4kzeh4 E6000 or JB Weld gets a good grip on the mounting surface. I'm going to us this in my van up behind the glove-box. I don't KNOW that it will benefit from forced cooling . . . but heat-sink performance jumps up by quantum values when subject to the smallest flow of air. This will allow me to put a 19V outlet on the panel that needs only a short jumper cord to the computer. This would no doubt work in you airplane as well. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 2012
From: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Z-11 I think
Or you can leave that stuff on the E-bus and turn any of them off with their own power switches if you think you need to save power. That gives you the flexibility to choose what you want to use when the alternator is down. I lost the alternator once, turned off the master, and flew on with two portable gps (powered from E-bus), transponder, Dynon D10, and an electronic ignition for a total of about 4 amps. Landed at a towered airport (with com turned back on), gassed up, started the engine, turned off the main bus, took off, turned off the radio, and flew on for a total of about 3 1/2 hrs and an engine start after the alternator failure. The next day still I had enough juice for an engine start after I had replaced the alternator. This was on a Concorde RG25. As far as E-bus switch position goes, I take Bob's point that the diode voltage drop is insignificant for the electronics, but I like to have the E-bus on so that I don't have to worry about which switch goes first when the alternator fails. If I happen to turn off the main bus before I turn on the E-bus, my electronics will re-boot. The feed path from the diode should of course be checked regularly so an E-bus switch failure can't ruin an otherwise groovy day.I also don't have to do any math to see the true bus voltage. Pax, Ed Holyoke On 9/5/2012 12:21 PM, Mark Wesson wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark Wesson" > > The bis question now is what should I put on the E-Buss. > I think I can survive without a GPS or Xpndr. > I do think I want my Coms and NAV and since that is a SL-30 I will leave the > 430W off. > Then my back-up Dynon D-6 draws very little. > I can power up the audio as is is cheap power. This leaves me with > > E-Buss > Garmin GMA 240 540 MA @ 13.8v = 7.5 watts 1A Fuse > > Garmin SL-30 Com 5A Fuse > Nav 3A Fuse > > Dynon D-6 1A @ 13.8v = 13 watts 1A Fuse > Total max 10 Amps which seems like smaller than the 7A for the E-Buss > without relay. > Am I missing anything essential on the E-buss? > I am not sure I would want this on a 7a fuse though. > > ?? > > > > Mark Wesson > President / Owner > > mark(at)wessonair.com > Ph # 407-831-5061 > Fax # 407-831-2570 > http://www.wessonair.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. > Nuckolls, III > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 12:08 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-11 I think > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > --> > > >> However I am using a single alt. with an E-Bus. >> Would I be better off with a E-Bus relay rather than a switch only? >> Seems better to have the wire running all the way to the swith as a >> ground only rather than a hot there and back. > If your total e-bus loads can be supported through > the 7A fuse, then that size of always-hot feeder from > the battery bus does not violate legacy design goals > for crash safety. > > Adding the relay is fine too . . . except that it > adds a parasitic load on the order of .15 A . . . > and one of the goals for the e-bus was to minimize > if not eliminate such loads. But it's your choice > commensurate with your own design goals. > >> During normal flight operation is the E-Bus switch left on so that >> power is direct rather than through the diode. The diode seems >> inefficient since it generates heat. > No. Consider the operating requirements for power > in every device qualified for commercial aircraft. > The device must perform down pass battery-dead voltage > levels (9V in a 14v system). When the alternator is > running, main bus is 14.2 or better which puts the e- > bus at 13.6 or so . . . nice source. When the alternator > is off, the MAX voltage available to anything in the > airplane is what ever the battery will provide . . . 12.5 > volts and DOWN. > > Hence the suggestion that a slightly depressed e-bus > is not an operational concern. Now, if your e-bus > is configured for HOURS of operations battery only > (hopefully equal to or greater than duration of > fuel aboard) then the e-bus loads are small . . . 3-6 > amps. 6 amps droped across a diode is about 4 watts > of heat . . . insignificant when a 40-60 amp alternator > is providing a 500 to 750 watt source of operating > power. > >> Why are all the drawings showing the simple on-off switches as on-on >> S700-1-3 rather than the 1-2? > You can go buy 1-2 if you like. I used to stock the 1-3 > which serviced both purposes and to keep line-items > of inventory low, I suggested that the 1-3 was a good > choice for BOTH slots both in terms of my inventory > and your spares. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery Tender performance
At 11:36 AM 9/5/2012, you wrote: > >The charger from Walmart is a Shumacher: >https://dl.dropbox.com/u/60509998/DSC04046.JPG >There were several models but this one seemed to be the right one >for my Odyssey 680s This is a very capable charger . . . and probably appropriate to a program where batteries are deeply discharged and then recharged such as trolling motors, mobility carts, etc. If one has the occasional need to put a 'fast' charge on a car or rv battery, something with this capability will cover more 'battery bases' and the price is right . . . about $40. If one wishes to do a simple top off and maintenance on a battery on a hangared airplane, then time-to-recharge is not an issue. Then a product like the SEM1562A http://tinyurl.com/25q3532 might be a better choice. For the same dollars, one can have two such devices doing the guardian angel thing over batteries in different locations. Don't wrapped around the 'features axle' for chargers with lots of lights and buttons unless you need to maximize battery life for devices in deep-discharge service. Protocols finely tuned to battery technology are not all that different from each other. Further, 99 times out of 100, you're putting an airplane away with a fully charged battery. Ideally, the battery in your airplane NEVER gets a deep discharge cycle and will last a very long time. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 2012
From: Roberto Waltman <aero(at)rwaltman.com>
Subject: Dynamic propeller balancing sensor.
I'm beginning to look into how difficult would it be to make my own "poor man's" dynamic prop balancer. Any recommendation for an of-the-shelf accelerometer to be used as sensor? Thanks, Roberto Waltman ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Dynamic propeller balancing sensor.
At 11:32 AM 9/6/2012, you wrote: > >I'm beginning to look into how difficult would it be to make my own >"poor man's" dynamic prop balancer. > >Any recommendation for an of-the-shelf accelerometer to be used as sensor? There are a number of variable capacitor accelerometers offered on eBay. You'll also need a charge amplifier and a 'charge-stable' coax signal cable to run between the accelerometer and amplifier. http://tinyurl.com/9hhege2 http://tinyurl.com/9o324vg http://tinyurl.com/8nd2y9y The output of the amplifier may need to be filtered to get rid of vibrational noises. I'm thinking a band-pass filter centered on the vibration-frequency of some handy test rpm would do the job. Since your data is only used for comparative measurements, calibration is not an issue. You could build your own charge amplifier http://tinyurl.com/d4t67hd If charge amp is built into a single assemlby with the accelerometer, you can do away with the fancy 'low capacitive noise' coax. Then read the conditioned signal with an rms reading voltmeter. This setup will only give you gross unbalance data . . . it won't tell you which blade is heavy. But test weights will quickly reveal whether adding some small weight made things better (light blade) or worse (heavy blade). Just saw this critter http://tinyurl.com/8ejraxb which seems to be an internally signal conditioned device. You could google the device and see if there are any user's manuals floating around out there. I wasn't aware of this product. Emacs! Signal conditioning built in and designed for use on machine tools. See: http://tinyurl.com/8v3ejxe Looks like just what you need. You'll still need to filter irrelevant vibrations so that you can take a close look at the relevant data. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Who would have thought?
Went out to the truck for parts purchased yesterday for a remodel project and was startled to find that one of my plastic switch boxes "changed shape" in yesterday's afternoon sun. Emacs! I suppose a professional wire slinger would have warned me about leaving them out there . . . or perhaps suggested that I not used them at all. It's doubtful that temperatures under my sheet rock will ever get that high . . . but it was a surprise to see this part react so strongly to temperatures on front seat of my truck. Just a heads-up in case any of you are contemplating changes to the wiring in your shop . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 2012
From: Roberto Waltman <aero(at)rwaltman.com>
Subject: Re: Dynamic propeller balancing sensor.
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > Then read the conditioned signal with an rms reading > voltmeter. This setup will only give you gross unbalance > data . . . it won't tell you which blade is heavy. > But test weights will quickly reveal whether adding > some small weight made things better (light blade) > or worse (heavy blade). Brilliant! I was planning to go the FFT and Adroid tablet GUI way. For the one single airplane/propeller that I want to take care of, your suggestion is perfect. > Just saw this critter > http://tinyurl.com/8ejraxb > which seems to be an internally signal conditioned > device. > http://tinyurl.com/8v3ejxe > Looks like just what you need. You'll still need > to filter irrelevant vibrations so that you can > take a close look at the relevant data. Thank you very much for the pointers. (If going with capacitive sensors, I almost forgot about the existence of charge amplifiers. Worked with Kistler force plates, years ago.) Roberto Waltman ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Dynamic propeller balancing sensor.
> >Thank you very much for the pointers. (If going with capacitive >sensors, I almost forgot about the existence of charge amplifiers. >Worked with Kistler force plates, years ago.) I've used up this month's 'play money' exploring some thermocouple readouts off eBay . . . but as soon as it's doable, I'll pick up a self-amplified accelerometer and get educated. I've got some work coming over the hill that might benefit from this technology. Here's an exemplar band pass filter for 30 Hz, (1800 propeller RPM). Emacs! This is a rough order of magnitude swipe at the task. You can fiddle with alternative gains, center frequency and bandwidth at: http://tinyurl.com/9xwbwfm Good luck! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 2012
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Who would have thought?
On 09/06/2012 02:10 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > Went out to the truck for parts purchased yesterday > for a remodel project and was startled to find that > one of my plastic switch boxes "changed shape" > in yesterday's afternoon sun. > > > I suppose a professional wire slinger would have warned me > about leaving them out there . . . or perhaps suggested that > I not used them at all. It's doubtful that temperatures > under my sheet rock will ever get that high . . . but it was > a surprise to see this part react so strongly to temperatures > on front seat of my truck. > > Just a heads-up in case any of you are contemplating changes > to the wiring in your shop . . . > > Bob . . . > Which way was the curved windshield facing (relative to the sun)? Even without any 'concentration' from an accidental lens, temps can easily reach >180 degrees in a closed car/truck.... Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 07, 2012
From: mddickens(at)comcast.net
Subject: Best Panel Dimmer for LEDs
I'm looking for an quality compact dimmer for LED lights. There are a number of units for sale out there, but wondered if the list had any recommendations. These would be used for cockpit lighting in my RV-8 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris" <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com>
Subject: Lacing goes main stream
Date: Sep 06, 2012
<http://news.yahoo.com/ancient-knots-keep-mars-rovers-laces-tied-red-1415412 22.html> I used a little of both in my project tie wraps and knots. -Chris RV-10 N919AR ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 07, 2012
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Lacing goes main stream
Interesting. I used a little both too. My spool of lacing cord is always in my tool box. Bill On 9/6/2012 9:50 PM, Chris wrote: > > <http://news.yahoo.com/ancient-knots-keep-mars-rovers-laces-tied-red-141541222.html> > > I used a little of both in my project tie wraps and knots. > > -Chris > > RV-10 > > N919AR > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 06, 2012
Subject: Re: Lacing goes main stream
Following a couple of the links I saw a nice reference document from NASA: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/doctree/87394.htm Among (lots of) other things it shows how to tie a couple of honest-to-goodness lacing knots. Always kinda wondered about that. Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 6:50 PM, Chris wrote: > <http://news.yahoo.com/ancient-knots-keep-mars-rovers-laces-tied-red-141541222.html> > > I used a little of both in my project tie wraps and knots. > > -Chris > > RV-10 > > N919AR > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 07, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Best Panel Dimmer for LEDs
At 08:16 PM 9/6/2012, you wrote: >I'm looking for an quality compact dimmer for LED lights. There are >a number of units for sale out there, but wondered if the list had >any recommendations. These would be used for cockpit lighting in my RV-8 Which ones are you considering? LED dimmer requirements can be markedly different than the devices suited to incandescent bulbs. The dimmers we used to sell (and B&C still does) are designed to produce a 4 to 13 volt output over full rotation of the knob. 4 volts produces a just visible glow from the lamps. This voltage range produces a visible adjustment of light output over the full range of rotation. Other lighting sources have their own quirks. I did a proposal for somebody on a 3 channel dimmer that provided a uniform observable effect on light output when controlling incandescent post lights, EL back lighting and plasma displays. Each system required its own span of control voltage and curve. An LED fixture with say, three white lamps in series will not produce any useful light until the voltage is up to 7-8 volts . . . A modern incarnation of the dimmer I cited above might offer an adjustable constant current output that would accommodate any combination of LEDs in series. You're going to have to give us more information as to how your lighting sources are configured along with devices you've seen advertised and want to consider. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Dynamic propeller balancing sensor.
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Sep 07, 2012
Bob's inputs here are great. Here's my two-cents: GovernmentLiquidations.com frequently has complete Chadwick Helmuth vibrex and strobex units for cheap. A business in a box! These are very professional units that are still used (for helicopters mainly...but hey, they still use propellers). Alternatively, pick up stuff from Ebay. Failing this, if you still want to roll your own, at least grab some C-H Strobex manuals to see how they do this, online: http://www.scribd.com/doc/40565507/Strobex-Manual . BTW: I knew and worked with Jim Helmuth personally when I worked on Endoscopic Strobo-Laryngoscopy for vocal cord vibration analysis. He was a brilliant, gentle and greatly admired man (Chadwick was the biz man, Jim Helmuth the engineer.) We all watched helplessly as he smoked himself to death far too young because he couldn't break his cigarette addiction. Damned shame. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382587#382587 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 07, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Dynamic propeller balancing sensor.
Failing this, if you still want to roll your own, at least grab some C-H Strobex manuals to see how they do this, online: http://www.scribd.com/doc/40565507/Strobex-Manual . Looks like a valuable addition to the archives. Do you have a membership to download this? BTW: I knew and worked with Jim Helmuth personally when I worked on Endoscopic Strobo-Laryngoscopy for vocal cord vibration analysis. He was a brilliant, gentle and greatly admired man (Chadwick was the biz man, Jim Helmuth the engineer.) We all watched helplessly as he smoked himself to death far too young because he couldn't break his cigarette addiction. Damned shame. The guy had an impressive resume. He's referenced a lot in the arena of lightning-in-a-jar. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Dynamic propeller balancing sensor.
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Sep 07, 2012
Sorry Bob, But the whole PDF appears to be there. The download is $9. An enterprising person could image grab it all some rainy Sunday. C-H's manual called "Smooth Propeller" and the Vibrex 2000 manuals are good too. I can't believe the military doesn't have free downloads on all this stuff. Maybe some AeroElectric lister can find them. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382630#382630 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 07, 2012
Subject: Re: anderoid tablets
From: bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
rumen, i have had the tablet for a week to play with it and am trying garmin and avilution apps on it. the airport directories and briefing abilities on each are very good. the navigation programs on both do have a few glitches though. i would lean toward the garmin for the nav part if it would just have a split screen to show the moving map and the nav. info at the same time. right now that isn't available for nexus tablet, just 10'' screens. i have read some forums and that is at the top of the list of gripes. as i already have 2 gps's in the plane i would probably use one of those to fly with for now. but like i said the other parts of the app. is very good. if you are in wi-fi coverage you can get a radar overlay on the sectional showing precip. anyway , for a 7'' tablet $200 is a great deal and i expect garmin will make improvements right along. bob noffs On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 1:56 PM, bob noffs wrote: > hi rumen, > yea, i thought the revelance was aviation but oh well. i will keep you in > on what i think after i get it. fwiw it has a gyroscope ans there must be > an app out there for an artificial horizon!. > spent an hour reading reviews and they were very positive. google > doesn't have their sights set on i pad but rather kindle. > bob noffs > > On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 6:58 AM, R. curtis wrote: > >> mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> >> >> Don't see the relevance of the question now since you already ordered it >>> before asking. >>> ? ? ? >>> >> >> The relevence, INMHO, is that there are at least a couple of us on >> the list that may be interested in the Garmin App, and may or may >> not own an Anderoid. Any info on this might be helpful. >> >> Roger >> >> >> >> >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 07, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Dynamic propeller balancing sensor.
At 01:37 PM 9/7/2012, you wrote: > >Sorry Bob, > >But the whole PDF appears to be there. The download is $9. An >enterprising person could image grab it all some rainy Sunday. No problem. Next time I have enough wishes in the que, I'll pay the one-day feed and go grab some stuff. But if I get flush (got a couple of $jobs$ on the back burner) I'll get a year subscription. Scribd is a fantastic resource. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 07, 2012
From: Roberto Waltman <aero(at)rwaltman.com>
Subject: Re: Dynamic propeller balancing sensor.
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > ...it won't tell you which blade is heavy. > But test weights will quickly reveal whether adding > some small weight made things better (light blade) > or worse (heavy blade). Not being a mechanical engineer, that's all I could think. Fortunately, other peoples are. [Mech engineers, physicists, etc.] See slides 36 to 42 in this presentation: sem.org/PDF/Suri_Rotor%20Balancing.pdf Roberto Waltman ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 07, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Dynamic propeller balancing sensor.
>Not being a mechanical engineer, that's all I could think. >Fortunately, other peoples are. [Mech engineers, physicists, etc.] > >See slides 36 to 42 in this presentation: >sem.org/PDF/Suri_Rotor%20Balancing.pdf Cool! That's a flashback to and engineering graphics course I took way back when . . . The dudes that figured out that process had some pretty twisted grey matter. One of those cases where a protractor, compass and ruler can be used to yield some interesting results. There's a process using similar tools whereby you can use star sightings to draw circles representing lines of possible position (each star sighting has an infinite number of possible positions which inscribes a circle on the surface of the earth). Plot LOP from three stars and the intersection of three circles is pretty close to where you're at. Love it . . . Hmmm . . . I wonder if this would adapt to a two bladed system? Anybody out there with sufficient twist in the cognitive neurons? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 07, 2012
From: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com>
Subject: Dynamic propeller balancing sensor.
>> This setup will only give you gross unbalance data . . . it won't tell you which blade is heavy. But test weights will quickly reveal whether adding some small weight made things better (light blade) or worse (heavy blade). Typically with dynamic balancing, though, one isn't just adding weights to one blade or the other, but rather just the right amount of weight at just the right circumferential point on the hub... Typically, NOT at the blade attachment location. Perhaps your technique will give you sufficient resolution for that, I haven't investigated... but your heavy/light blade reference concerns me in that regard. Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 07, 2012
From: Roberto Waltman <aero(at)rwaltman.com>
Subject: Re: Dynamic propeller balancing sensor.
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > Hmmm . . . I wonder if this would adapt to a > two bladed system? Anybody out there with sufficient > twist in the cognitive neurons? It is not a three-blade system. It is a rotating mass, of any geometry, measured/balanced by placing sample weights 120 degrees apart. I assume you need at least three to make the intersection of the three circles unique. Roberto Waltman ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Dynamic propeller balancing sensor.
At 10:54 PM 9/7/2012, you wrote: > >Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> Hmmm . . . I wonder if this would adapt to a >> two bladed system? Anybody out there with sufficient >> twist in the cognitive neurons? > >It is not a three-blade system. It is a rotating mass, of any >geometry, measured/balanced by placing sample weights 120 degrees >apart. I assume you need at least three to make the intersection of >the three circles unique. aHHH . . . but of course. Guess it would be pretty hard to make this work on a two bladed propeller unless you could put the weights on the hub. I suspect the professional chasers of propeller shake use a methodology not unlike the old Bear alignment systems that used a strobe to mark wheel position when the heavy (or light) spot was straight up or straight down. I remember my mechanic putting a chalk mark on the tire and using the 'scope to clock the chalk mark. The 'scope only located the weight, he put his hand on the fender to judge when he was getting close to the right weight . . . if he overshot, the 'scope would report a swap of the heavy/light sides. Kinda crude by today's techniques but it sure worked better than the static bubble balance method. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 07, 2012
Subject: Re: Dynamic propeller balancing sensor.
We balance props on a regular basis using an ancient Chadwick. It usually takes about an hour. The Chadwick system uses an accelerometer and a strobe. A black box calculates when the acceleration reaches it peak and flashes the strobe at that point. The box also indicates a quantity for the vibration, in units of "inches per second", or IPS. There's also a mag pickup system but that's more for helicopter main rotors. Since the peak occurs when the heaviest part of the weighted disc is adjacent to the accelerometer, you know where to add weight (opposite the accelerometer, with the target positioned as it appeared in the flash). The user fine tunes the flash rate by watching for shift in the target position while pushing a tuning button, and simultaneously adjusting for RPM. It takes a little practice but once you know what to watch for it's pretty easy. Chadwick used to have an FAA-approved pamphlet called "The Smooth Propeller" that talked about how and where to add weights. It's pretty much trial and error until you get a handle on how much weight has a resulting effect. Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 10:12 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 10:54 PM 9/7/2012, you wrote: >> >> >> >> Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>> >>> Hmmm . . . I wonder if this would adapt to a >>> two bladed system? Anybody out there with sufficient >>> twist in the cognitive neurons? >> >> >> It is not a three-blade system. It is a rotating mass, of any geometry, >> measured/balanced by placing sample weights 120 degrees apart. I assume you >> need at least three to make the intersection of the three circles unique. > > > aHHH . . . but of course. Guess it would be > pretty hard to make this work on a two bladed propeller > unless you could put the weights on the hub. > > I suspect the professional chasers of propeller > shake use a methodology not unlike the old Bear > alignment systems that used a strobe to mark wheel > position when the heavy (or light) spot was straight > up or straight down. I remember my mechanic putting > a chalk mark on the tire and using the 'scope to > clock the chalk mark. The 'scope only located the > weight, he put his hand on the fender to judge when > he was getting close to the right weight . . . if > he overshot, the 'scope would report a swap of > the heavy/light sides. > > Kinda crude by today's techniques but it sure > worked better than the static bubble balance > method. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2012
From: Roberto Waltman <aero(at)rwaltman.com>
Subject: Re: Dynamic propeller balancing sensor.
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > unless you could put the weights on the hub. That's were they normally go. Small washers... The blades are expected to be already statically balanced. That is, same weight, but not necessarily same weight distribution. That's why dynamic balancing is needed. > I suspect the professional chasers of propeller > shake use a methodology not unlike the old Bear > alignment systems that used a strobe to mark wheel > position when the heavy (or light) spot was straight > up or straight down. Modern system do not use a strobe light. An accelerometer and an optical sensor are mounted near the prop, and a reflecting tape is mounted on the prop itself, but not as a reference for a strobe. A computer reads data from both and provides vibration amplitude and phase information as a guide to be used placing weights. Products: http://www.rpxtech.com/rpxweb/Dynavibe.asp http://www.smartavionics.com/pb3/pb3.html http://dssmicro.com/products/prod_mb_main.htm http://dssmicro.com/products.htm A field report (Vibrex): http://www.dvatp.com/aviation/maintenance/dynamic_balancing/ Roberto Waltman ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2012
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Dynamic propeller balancing sensor.
I have a commercial unit that uses the ADXL103 acceleration sensor. I've also experimented with that chip (actually one channel of an ADXL203) to do a little monitoring of propeller and bearing condition. The overall concept is to bounce an infra red signal off reflective tape on one prop blade to get rpm and the phase of the imbalance. Add a weight and repeat the run. Compute a suggested change in phase and magnitude which can be done in software or with a paper vector diagram. ie. suggest a relative change in the size of the weight and how many degrees of prop rotation to move it forward or aft. FWIW on the few props that I've tested, I've yet to find a significant improvement on Warp Drive props or on two blade metal props that were already in obvious good condition. And I've greatly increased my opinion of how sufficient static prop balancing can be. Graybeards can static balance to within a few spray puffs of paint on the tips. That would be with the prop on a horizontal mandrel and the mandrel resting on knife edges. It is easy to chase insignificant apparent imbalances that are different at varying engine rpms but it was certainly educational. Ken On 06/09/2012 12:32 PM, Roberto Waltman wrote: > > > I'm beginning to look into how difficult would it be to make my own > "poor man's" dynamic prop balancer. > > Any recommendation for an of-the-shelf accelerometer to be used as sensor? > > Thanks, > > Roberto Waltman > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net>
Subject: Small LiPo battery testing system....
Date: Sep 08, 2012
Bob and List members, As a retired ol' guy from the electronics world of yesteryear, I have not kept up with the modern, inexpensive electronics available today. One of the hobbies I have returned to is model RC aircraft using electric motors and Lipo battery as power. I would appreciate suggestions for a smart rig to test my battery packs from time to time to keep an aging history on them and know when to retire a battery before it faults while in the air. Building or buying a testing set-up are the options with the test data being fed into a PC for normal review and file saving, etc. The test would probably start with a 1C load for a few seconds to get essentially an open circuit voltage reading as a start point. And, then, switch to a normal load and operation in flight current for lengths of time watching for battery capacity characteristics, etc. These data would be fed to a PC for viewing, etc. I am betting that there are ready made, inexpensive units to do this that I do not now know about. So, suggestions, ideas, directions from this forum group would be very kindly appreciated. Dave ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Small LiPo battery testing system....
> >I am betting that there are ready made, inexpensive units to do this >that I do not now know about. This one has a lot of snort for the $ http://tinyurl.com/9jyfeyu I use them here. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2012
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Small LiPo battery testing system....
On 09/08/2012 12:44 PM, David Lloyd wrote: > > > Bob and List members, > > As a retired ol' guy from the electronics world of yesteryear, I have > not kept up with the modern, inexpensive electronics available today. > One of the hobbies I have returned to is model RC aircraft using > electric motors and Lipo battery as power. > > I would appreciate suggestions for a smart rig to test my battery > packs from time to time to keep an aging history on them and know when > to retire a battery before it faults while in the air. > > Building or buying a testing set-up are the options with the test data > being fed into a PC for normal review and file saving, etc. > > The test would probably start with a 1C load for a few seconds to get > essentially an open circuit voltage reading as a start point. > And, then, switch to a normal load and operation in flight current for > lengths of time watching for battery capacity characteristics, etc. > These data would be fed to a PC for viewing, etc. > > I am betting that there are ready made, inexpensive units to do this > that I do not now know about. > > So, suggestions, ideas, directions from this forum group would be very > kindly appreciated. > Dave Not directly related to your question, but as a heads-up (if you're not familiar with the battery properties), I'd suggest a fire resistant area open to the outdoors as a charging station. A neighbor almost burned down his machine shop when one caught fire while charging. It took weeks to clean up the smoke damage to his machine tools (several lathes, mills, etc). He's an experienced RC'er, & was using recommended charging systems. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2012
From: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: 19v laptop power in vehicles
So, Bob, The output is adjusted manually to 19v? Does input voltage affect output as in alternator running/not running. Does a laptop battery know not to overcharge itself. Ed Holyoke On 9/5/2012 12:21 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > We've had some discussions on the List about powering > lap-tops without a great mish-mash of inverters, > ac mains power supplies and their attendant cables. > > Here's a gizmo I bought these two offers off eBay: > > *http://tinyurl.com/bn3nkw9 > > *http://tinyurl.com/7vwr4ur > > at very reasonable prices. I mounted the fan > to the up-converter heatsink thusly. > > http://tinyurl.com/c7jc92s > http://tinyurl.com/bqqxhy8 > http://tinyurl.com/c4kzeh4 > > E6000 or JB Weld gets a good grip on the > mounting surface. I'm going to us this in > my van up behind the glove-box. I don't KNOW > that it will benefit from forced cooling . . . > but heat-sink performance jumps up by quantum > values when subject to the smallest flow of > air. > > This will allow me to put a 19V outlet on > the panel that needs only a short jumper > cord to the computer. This would no doubt > work in you airplane as well. > > Bob . . . > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 19v laptop power in vehicles
At 03:58 PM 9/8/2012, you wrote: >So, Bob, > >The output is adjusted manually to 19v? Yes, you set it before connecting your computer to it. > Does input voltage affect output as in alternator running/not running. The power supply for laptops is not a highly regulated device. The typical DC input to the laptop goes immediately to a switchmode regulator that produces a host of outputs needed by the computer both for operation of the byte thrashing hardware -and- charging the battery. > Does a laptop battery know not to overcharge itself. Sort of . . . battery charge, discharge and state of current capacity are managed by a combination of goodies on the computer and/or within the battery itself. The battery is not an autonomous component in the system. All the adapter needs to supply is 19 volts. The computer would probably be 'happy' with anything over the range of 17-21 volts. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 19v laptop power in vehicles
At 03:58 PM 9/8/2012, you wrote: >So, Bob, > >The output is adjusted manually to 19v? Yes, you set it before connecting your computer to it. > Does input voltage affect output as in alternator running/not running. The power supply for laptops is not a highly regulated device. The typical DC input to the laptop goes immediately to a switchmode regulator that produces a host of outputs needed by the computer both for operation of the byte thrashing hardware -and- charging the battery. But the answer to your question is no. This power supply is a switchmode boost device with a well regulated output that varies little with changes in load or input voltage. > Does a laptop battery know not to overcharge itself. Sort of . . . battery charge, discharge and state of current capacity are managed by a combination of goodies on the computer and/or within the battery itself. The battery is not an autonomous component in the system. All the adapter needs to supply is 19 volts. The computer would probably be 'happy' with anything over the range of 17-21 volts. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2012
From: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: 19v laptop power in vehicles
Thanks, Bob. I think I'll try one. Ed On 9/8/2012 2:24 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 03:58 PM 9/8/2012, you wrote: >> So, Bob, >> >> The output is adjusted manually to 19v? > > > Yes, you set it before connecting your computer > to it. > >> Does input voltage affect output as in alternator running/not running. > > > The power supply for laptops is not a highly > regulated device. The typical DC input to the > laptop goes immediately to a switchmode regulator > that produces a host of outputs needed by the > computer both for operation of the byte thrashing > hardware -and- charging the battery. > > */ But the answer to your question is no. This power > supply is a switchmode boost device with a well > regulated output that varies little with changes > in load or input vo/*ltage. > >> Does a laptop battery know not to overcharge itself. > > Sort of . . . battery charge, discharge and state > of current capacity are managed by a combination > of goodies on the computer and/or within the battery > itself. The battery is not an autonomous component > in the system. > > All the adapter needs to supply is 19 volts. The > computer would probably be 'happy' with anything > over the range of 17-21 volts. > > Bob . . . > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2012
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Small LiPo battery testing system....
I use the so called genuine version of the IMAX B6 from hobbyking electronics. Around $24. Less for the knockoff version. More for the one that has a built in AC power supply. It does Li with charge balancing, NiMH, NiCad, and LeadAcid. The optional software is limited but does plot out a charge or discharge voltage vs. time chart. Haven't used the temperature sensor yet as I don't leave the batteries untended while charging and you can't use the temp sensor at the same time as the plotting software. There is a somewhat similar heavy duty device available from them as well that handles large amperage. Ken On 08/09/2012 1:44 PM, David Lloyd wrote: > > > Bob and List members, > > As a retired ol' guy from the electronics world of yesteryear, I have > not kept up with the modern, inexpensive electronics available today. > One of the hobbies I have returned to is model RC aircraft using > electric motors and Lipo battery as power. > > I would appreciate suggestions for a smart rig to test my battery packs > from time to time to keep an aging history on them and know when to > retire a battery before it faults while in the air. > > Building or buying a testing set-up are the options with the test data > being fed into a PC for normal review and file saving, etc. > > The test would probably start with a 1C load for a few seconds to get > essentially an open circuit voltage reading as a start point. > And, then, switch to a normal load and operation in flight current for > lengths of time watching for battery capacity characteristics, etc. > These data would be fed to a PC for viewing, etc. > > I am betting that there are ready made, inexpensive units to do this > that I do not now know about. > > So, suggestions, ideas, directions from this forum group would be very > kindly appreciated. > Dave > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Small LiPo battery testing system....
Date: Sep 08, 2012
Charlie, You are quite correct....rapid charging of Lipo's can be a dangerous situation. I don't charge at much above than 1 or 2C. I keep the Lipo in a surplus ammo can while charging. I have a buddy that is a expert helio RC guy. He was charging Lipo's at a rapid rate and left his garage to answer the phone. By the time he got back his garage was on-fire and he lost everything inside....!! Good warning about charging a Lipo at high "C" rates. ________________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 1:06 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Small LiPo battery testing system.... > > > On 09/08/2012 12:44 PM, David Lloyd wrote: >> >> >> Bob and List members, >> >> As a retired ol' guy from the electronics world of yesteryear, I have not >> kept up with the modern, inexpensive electronics available today. One of >> the hobbies I have returned to is model RC aircraft using electric motors >> and Lipo battery as power. >> >> I would appreciate suggestions for a smart rig to test my battery packs >> from time to time to keep an aging history on them and know when to >> retire a battery before it faults while in the air. >> >> Building or buying a testing set-up are the options with the test data >> being fed into a PC for normal review and file saving, etc. >> >> The test would probably start with a 1C load for a few seconds to get >> essentially an open circuit voltage reading as a start point. >> And, then, switch to a normal load and operation in flight current for >> lengths of time watching for battery capacity characteristics, etc. >> These data would be fed to a PC for viewing, etc. >> >> I am betting that there are ready made, inexpensive units to do this that >> I do not now know about. >> >> So, suggestions, ideas, directions from this forum group would be very >> kindly appreciated. >> Dave > Not directly related to your question, but as a heads-up (if you're not > familiar with the battery properties), I'd suggest a fire resistant area > open to the outdoors as a charging station. A neighbor almost burned down > his machine shop when one caught fire while charging. It took weeks to > clean up the smoke damage to his machine tools (several lathes, mills, > etc). He's an experienced RC'er, & was using recommended charging systems. > > Charlie > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Master relay (12v) and Airgozmo gps mount for sale
From: "sonar1(at)cox.net" <sonar1(at)cox.net>
Date: Sep 09, 2012
I bought this [b] MASTER RELAY[/b] for my 701, but never used it. Still in the plastic bag: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/masterrelay.php Selling for $15 including shipping..........Fred Also have an Airgizmo gps panel mount for the 396 type gps's. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/airgizmos.php Selling for $45 including shipping.............Fred Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382738#382738 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 09, 2012
From: David <dlposey-atlanta(at)att.net>
Subject: Fwd: Fwd: DEPORT HER TO AMERICA !..................................
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 09, 2012
From: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com>
Subject: Re: Dynamic propeller balancing sensor.
>> Modern system do not use a strobe light. An accelerometer and an optical sensor are mounted near the prop, and a reflecting tape is mounted on the prop itself, but not as a reference for a strobe. A computer reads data from both and provides vibration amplitude and phase information as a guide to be used placing weights. The new Insight G3 engine monitor is to eventually include a real-time vibration monitor. Whether it will be capable enough to suggest location and size of balance weights, I do not know. It wasn't functional on version 0 IIRC. Paul > Products: > http://www.rpxtech.com/rpxweb/Dynavibe.asp > http://www.smartavionics.com/pb3/pb3.html > http://dssmicro.com/products/prod_mb_main.htm > http://dssmicro.com/products.htm > > A field report (Vibrex): > http://www.dvatp.com/aviation/maintenance/dynamic_balancing/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 09, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Fwd: DEPORT HER TO AMERICA !..................................
David, Check the list of recipients in your Bcc window . . . At 12:11 PM 9/9/2012, you wrote: >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 10, 2012
From: Roberto Waltman <aero(at)rwaltman.com>
Subject: Re: Dynamic propeller balancing sensor.
Dave Saylor wrote: > Chadwick used to have an FAA-approved pamphlet called "The Smooth > Propeller" that talked about how and where to add weights. Found a copy here: http://www.expaircraft.com/PDFgallery.htm Roberto Waltman. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 13, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Backup battery for fuel pumps?
Bob, I recently purchased your schottky diode with the intention of using it as follows. I wondered if you might be willing to share with me whether this is a good idea, and if not, why. I am building an RV9, and am planning an all-electric fuel system. I have a carbureted O-320 with no mechanical fuel pump. I have two Facet cube fuel pumps in the cabin in parallel, just down-stream of the fuel selector. Each pump has a check valve immediately downstream of the pump. Start the engine on the "aux" pump, and once it's running the "main" pump will come online. Understand My question to you is about the electrical system for the pumps. I am planning a dual alternator, single battery system similar to your "Z" diagrams, and have already purchased the B&C 60-amp main and SD-20 backup alternators (12V system). However I recognize one failure mode that I remain uncovered for: the loss of the negative terminal or wire from the battery. It is my understanding that alternators don't behave well without a battery online and can produce erratic voltage swings which will render the alternator all but useless. (I could be completely wrong about this.) I recognize that the likelihood of an Odyssey 680 battery shedding a terminal is quite low, however I've had an automotive battery that did that exact thing and as a result I feel a need to account for that possibility. I think you're worrying too much. There are many critical features of our airplanes that are crafted to the robustness and reliability of prop bolts. For example, wing spars, flight controls, fuel lines, and yes . . . battery wires. I also recognize that due to my electrically-dependent fuel system, I cannot live with wild voltage swings and the loss of my only battery. I don't however, feel a need to carry the weight of two full-size Odyssey batteries when a single fuel pump consumes slightly more than an amp of current. Instead I am considering a smaller, lighter, and cheaper 7AH AGM battery on a DP3T switch to one pump so that I could choose between running the pump off the battery bus or the 7AH battery. I would like to simply run a perhaps 12GA wire from my main bus to my 7AH battery through a fuse/breaker/fusible-link and then the schottky diode. Battery ground would go to the forest of tabs. Peak reverse voltage would never be more than bus voltage, and I believe that even if the 7AH battery was in a pretty discharged state the current through the diode wouldn't be damaging (but I could be wrong about this as well). There is no good reason to believe that your fuel pumps will ever be totally deprived of of useful energy. If it were my airplane, I would power one pump from the battery bus and the other from the main bus. Each pump to enjoy its own breaker/fuse and switch. I realize that the 7AH battery would be charged at something slightly less than bus voltage due to diode drop, but the Schottky minimizes that. I also realize that when turning the master switch on before starting the engine, some amount of current from the main battery might flow to the 7AH battery if it is in a discharged state. This might make it difficult to start the engine on the remaining energy. But due to the typically short duration that the master is turned on before the engine is started, I don't expect this to occur for very long and the bus voltage will drop below the voltage of the 7AH battery as soon as the starter is engaged. My question is, is this a bad idea? Is there something you see that I haven't considered? I really wanted to avoid the complexity and weight of another contactor just for the 7AH battery, but a contactor would give me more choices on how and when to charge the 7AH battery and ensure it received as complete a charge as possible. A contactor would however also increase system complexity for the pilot, which I want to avoid if possible. I really would like to make my electrical system operation as simple as, say, a Skyhawk or a Cherokee. Separate sources and switches within the as-published Z-12 architecture should get the job done and without added complexity and cost of ownership for a second battery. As the builder -AND- pilot for this project, you'll be aware of value for fabrication and maintenance of robust connections to critical connections. If you have an urge to inspect things like prop bolts, fuel and oil levels . . . then due diligence to installation and maintenance of some critical wires will not add substantially to the burden . . . and it benefits MORE than availability of power to the pumps. Failure tolerance goes hand-in-hand with good craftsmanship for avoiding 'bad days in the cockpit'. Thank you for your thoughts on this. If this sort of consultation advice would be something you would typically charge an independent consult fee for, please let me know what your fee might be for something of this nature. I don't wish to require significantly of your time without compensation. Let's post this to the AeroElectric-List and make it a classroom exercise as opposed to a fee for service. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 13, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Mag noise
Noise in radio. Newly overhauled Bendix mags, new ignition harness new P leads, Noise only appears with mag switch on Both, is not there when switch is on left or right individually. Rechecked all ground connections, shielding is grounded at both ends. Engine is grounded to engine mount, engine mount grounded to airframe. All connections at switch have been checked. Aircraft is a Glastar with composite fuselage. Someone has suggested using double shielded wire for P leads. We have tried everything to solve the problem and have run out of options. Would really appreciate your help. I have your loose leaf book but could not find anything that specifically addressed this problem. Thank you. Do this experiment. Disconnect both the p-lead center conductors -AND- ground wires at the switch and leave them hanging. Fire up the engine and see if the noise persists. Kill engine with mixture. If noise goes away, reconnect wires to the switch but REMOVE local ground for the shields. Wiring data in the book is figure Z-26. Emacs! The shields should be grounded at the engine end only. I think this may fix your problem. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 13, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: RE: Backup battery for fuel pumps?
At 01:16 PM 9/13/2012, you wrote: >Thank you for your thoughts, Bob. It's not the battery cable or >fittings I was concerned about as much as the failure of the actual >threaded insert which is potted into the battery case. That is what >happened to my auto battery - the entire female threaded insert >departed the battery case with the cable still bolted to it - >spilling acid all over my engine compartment. Different battery >technology, of course. Your RG battery will never spill liquid and it's unlikely to suffer a terminal shedding event as long as that terminal has not been damaged by accident or over-torqued installation of hardware. I don't think I'd worry about that one. Use soft, 4AWG welding cable jumpers to the battery terminals and they'll be the most mechanically pampered of their species anywhere. >I do agree with you that the likelihood is less than that of a prop, >prop bolt, engine mount bolt, or other rotating engine part failure, >so as long as the electrical supply to the fuel pump is not the >LEAST reliable component in the chain that keeps the fan running I >should not go to extensive lengths to mitigate the risk. > >Do you have any experience with the operation of alternators when a >battery is removed from the electrical system? I would love to >conduct an experiment with my SD-20 and an oscilloscope, but >unfortunately a scope is not in the airplane fund. Consider the fact that already running alternators are unaware of the existence of a battery except for transient events that might tend to 'stall' the alternator. Pitot heater, gazillion watt landing light, PM pump motor on gear, etc. These loads cause a sudden onset of load that MIGHT drop the bus enough to encourage support from the battery (below 12.5 volts). But in steady state conditions the battery is essentially out of the loop. Many if not most alternators will come on line self excited assuming bus loads can be reduced sufficiently to allow residual magnetism to tickle the alternator to life . . . in fact, the Bonanza and Baron alternators are intended to come up and run self excited. Hence the independent alternator and battery switches in these airplanes. Unlike airplanes with the 'split rocker' independent operation of alternator is allowed in the piston Beechcraft models . . . and described in the emergency procedures for the airplane. If a battery were to become disconnected in flight, you're not likely to even know it happened especially in daytime where the bumps in bus voltage are unlikely to be observed -AND- assuming you don't have any of the high inrush loads I cited above. Most builders wouldn't know the battery was unhooked until next pre-flight. This is an easy experiment to conduct when your airplane is sufficiently assembled to run the engine and exercise the electrical system. I wouldn't add any hedges against failure until the risks for those failures are confirmed to be significant. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Backup battery for fuel pumps?
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Sep 14, 2012
This is not an electrical question, but relates to the previous question about fuel pumps. What are the pro and cons about plumbing fuel pumps in parallel compared to series? My concern is the failure of a check valve when fuel pumps are in parallel. The pilot might not be aware of a check valve failure until its associated pump also fails. Then the good pump will be circulating fuel in a loop through the failed check valve. The fuel pressure to the engine could be reduced. Or is this concern unwarranted? Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383060#383060 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: SkyView power wires
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Sep 14, 2012
Quote from SkyView installation manual: > Power Input > SkyView displays have a primary power input that is compatible with 12 volt and 24 volt systems (10 to 30 volts DC). There are two unterminated solid red primary power input wires (to reduce current loading in each wirethese are not for redundancy and both should be connected to the same power source) and two unterminated solid black primary ground wires. > Ensure that there is an appropriately rated circuit breaker or replaceable fuse on the primary power input. A 5 amp circuit breaker or replaceable fuse is sufficient for the majority of installations. Reference the Power Consumption Section of the System Planning Chapter for more information. I do not understand the reasoning for using two power wires instead of one larger wire. In fact, it would seem that just one small wire would handle the 5 amp load with ease. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383063#383063 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 2012
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: After 30 years...
Here it is...at last. After 30 years of working on N28EZ it's ready to go down to the hangar and join up with it's already finished wings, drain the tanks, do the weight and balance and call the FAA! And do whatever else I find is needed to get it flying. This was just a quick video with the cowlings on for appearance sake...I've already run it several times without the cowl to set the idle, check the gauges, temperatures, etc. It has dual P-mags and a Dynon D-180, Anywhere Map Pro, B&C alternator and starter, Microair radio and transponder, etc. All gauges, switches and readouts performed as expected in the earlier runs! RPM, voltages and temperatures were in the ball park. Modified Z13-8 wiring. Started with the Z13-8, then modified it as I went along. This last video, though, it couldn't wait for me to finish...at 2250 RPM, it jumped the right chock and tried to fly! http://youtu.be/LJVIl1ERwSA Harley Dixon Long EZ N28EZ (finally all done...just have to reassemble) Hangar 29 Canandaigua Airport, Canandaigua, NY ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Backup battery for fuel pumps?
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: Sep 14, 2012
Joe, It all depends on the pump. On my Rotax 914 the standard arrangement is for two pumps in series, each paralleled with a check valve. In case a failed pump will not pass fuel there's a parallel check valve to ensure fuel flow. Odds of a check valve failure are approaching zero. You can make up a similar parallel setup with check valves on the output of each pump to ensure there's no back flow through a failed pump. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On Sep 14, 2012, at 9:56 AM, user9253 wrote: This is not an electrical question, but relates to the previous question about fuel pumps. What are the pro and cons about plumbing fuel pumps in parallel compared to series? My concern is the failure of a check valve when fuel pumps are in parallel. The pilot might not be aware of a check valve failure until its associated pump also fails. Then the good pump will be circulating fuel in a loop through the failed check valve. The fuel pressure to the engine could be reduced. Or is this concern unwarranted? Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383060#383060 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 2012
From: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: After 30 years...
Contrats!!!- Maybe there is hope that I will eventually finish my KIS Cru iser as =0Awell.- Why is it that life keeps getting in the way of our mor e important =0Ahobbies???=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.co m=0ASent: Fri, September 14, 2012 10:19:34 AM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: After 30 years...=0A=0A=0A=0AHere it is...at last.- After 30 years of wo rking on N28EZ it's ready to go down =0Ato the hangar and join up with it's already finished wings,- drain the tanks, do =0Athe weight and balance a nd call the FAA! And do whatever else I find is needed =0Ato get it flying. =0A=0AThis was just a quick video with the cowlings on for appearance sake. ..I've =0Aalready run it several times without the cowl to set the idle, ch eck the gauges, =0Atemperatures, etc. It has dual P-mags and a Dynon D-180, Anywhere Map Pro, B&C =0Aalternator and starter,- Microair radio and tra nsponder, etc.- All gauges, =0Aswitches and readouts performed as expecte d in the earlier runs! RPM, voltages =0Aand temperatures were in the ball p ark. Modified Z13-8 wiring. Started with the =0AZ13-8, then modified it as I went along.- =0A=0A=0AThis last video, though, it couldn't wait for me to finish...at 2250 RPM, it =0Ajumped the right chock and tried to fly! =0A =0A=0Ahttp://youtu.be/LJVIl1ERwSA=0A=0AHarley Dixon=0ALong EZ N28EZ (finall y all done...just have to reassemble)=0AHangar 29 =0ACanandaigua Airport, C = =0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Jean Curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Backup battery for fuel pumps?
Date: Sep 14, 2012
This is not an electrical question, but relates to the previous question about fuel pumps. What are the pro and cons about plumbing fuel pumps in parallel compared to series? My concern is the failure of a check valve when fuel pumps are in parallel. The pilot might not be aware of a check valve failure until its associated pump also fails. Then the good pump will be circulating fuel in a loop through the failed check valve. The fuel pressure to the engine could be reduced. Or is this concern unwarranted? Joe I would think that you would normally do a fuel pump test as part of your preflight, i.e. turn each pump on one at a time and check pressure. This will check the pump op and the check valve. It is highly unlikely that you will have both a pump and a check valve failure simultaneously. Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Backup battery for fuel pumps?
Date: Sep 14, 2012
What does putting the pumps in series do for you? It seems that plumbing the pumps in parallel would accomplish fuel delivery and be a little simpler? _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Borger Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 08:21 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Backup battery for fuel pumps? Joe, It all depends on the pump. On my Rotax 914 the standard arrangement is for two pumps in series, each paralleled with a check valve. In case a failed pump will not pass fuel there's a parallel check valve to ensure fuel flow. Odds of a check valve failure are approaching zero. You can make up a similar parallel setup with check valves on the output of each pump to ensure there's no back flow through a failed pump. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On Sep 14, 2012, at 9:56 AM, user9253 wrote: This is not an electrical question, but relates to the previous question about fuel pumps. What are the pro and cons about plumbing fuel pumps in parallel compared to series? My concern is the failure of a check valve when fuel pumps are in parallel. The pilot might not be aware of a check valve failure until its associated pump also fails. Then the good pump will be circulating fuel in a loop through the failed check valve. The fuel pressure to the engine could be reduced. Or is this concern unwarranted? Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383060#383060 - The --> &n======================== ======================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 2012
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Re: After 30 years...
When I retired, I thought that I would be able to zip right through it...but then I came down with a little medical problem...leukemia. Took 8 years to get to the point this year where the FAA finally approved me to fly again...meanwhile, I worked on the plane whenever I could...took time, but well worth it to hear it start and run...especially as well as it does with all the new gadgets on it! A lot of instrumentation changes since I first started it in 1982! Harley ----------------------------------------------------------------- On 9/14/2012 11:36 AM, Robert Reed wrote: > Contrats!!! Maybe there is hope that I will eventually finish > my KIS Cruiser as well. Why is it that life keeps getting in > the way of our more important hobbies??? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > *From:* Harley > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Sent:* Fri, September 14, 2012 10:19:34 AM > *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: After 30 years... > > > Here it is...at last. After 30 years of working on N28EZ it's > ready to go down to the hangar and join up with it's already > finished wings, drain the tanks, do the weight and balance and > call the FAA! And do whatever else I find is needed to get it > flying. > > This was just a quick video with the cowlings on for appearance > sake...I've already run it several times without the cowl to > set the idle, check the gauges, temperatures, etc. It has dual > P-mags and a Dynon D-180, Anywhere Map Pro, B&C alternator and > starter, Microair radio and transponder, etc. All gauges, > switches and readouts performed as expected in the earlier > runs! RPM, voltages and temperatures were in the ball park. > Modified Z13-8 wiring. Started with the Z13-8, then modified it > as I went along. > > This last video, though, it couldn't wait for me to finish...at > 2250 RPM, it jumped the right chock and tried to fly! > > http://youtu.be/LJVIl1ERwSA > > Harley Dixon > Long EZ N28EZ (finally all done...just have to reassemble) > Hangar 29 > Canandaigua Airport, Canandaigua, NY > > > *cs.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://wt;n" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =========== > > * > * > > > * > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > Date: 09/14/12 > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 2012
From: John Grosse <grosseair(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: SkyView power wires
Have you asked the SkyView people? The rest of us can only guess at their rationale for the "why". Personally, I can't imagine any reason, but I have seen other applications where a larger wire would not fit in the connector and two smaller wires were used. John Grosse user9253 wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" > > Quote from SkyView installation manual: > >> > Power Input >> > SkyView displays have a primary power input that is compatible with 12 volt and 24 volt systems (10 to 30 volts DC). There are two unterminated solid red primary power input wires (to reduce current loading in each wirethese are not for redundancy and both should be connected to the same power source) and two unterminated solid black primary ground wires. >> > Ensure that there is an appropriately rated circuit breaker or replaceable fuse on the primary power input. A 5 amp circuit breaker or replaceable fuse is sufficient for the majority of installations. Reference the Power Consumption Section of the System Planning Chapter for more information. > > I do not understand the reasoning for using two power wires instead of one larger wire. In fact, it would seem that just one small wire would handle the 5 amp load with ease. > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Backup battery for fuel pumps?
At 10:20 AM 9/14/2012, you wrote: Joe, It all depends on the pump. On my Rotax 914 the standard arrangement is for two pumps in series, each paralleled with a check valve. In case a failed pump will not pass fuel there's a parallel check valve to ensure fuel flow. Has anyone explored the cracking pressures for the two check valves built into Facet/Purolator style pumps? As Joe suggests, the probability of failure for a check valve (48 and 58) is very low. It might stick OPEN due to some obstruction and filters are supposed to stop that. Emacs! P For a pair of pumps plumbed in series, it seems that either pump would function with the other powered down unless the cracking pressure for valves in the inactive pump are too great and a low-pressure by-pass valved is called for. These pumps are MOST likely to quit due to lack of power. Given their all solid state, free-running excitation philosophy, See: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7150606.pdf . . . there is no part of this pump that is highly stressed or subject to wear. Dual pumps would address a HOST of ancillary failures like broken wires, bad switch, bad breaker, loss of buss, etc. Two, totally independent pumps/controls/protection/ power source pretty much covers the bases. This extra plumbing and check valve thing may be an exercise in unsubstantiated worrying. Some simple tests would confirm/deny validity of the concern. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 2012
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: After 30 years...
Yes, it looks like it needs to fly. Congratulations! Bill Watson On 9/14/2012 11:17 AM, Harley wrote: > > Here it is...at last. After 30 years of working on N28EZ it's ready > to go down to the hangar and join up with it's already finished > wings, drain the tanks, do the weight and balance and call the FAA! > And do whatever else I find is needed to get it flying. > > This was just a quick video with the cowlings on for appearance > sake...I've already run it several times without the cowl to set the > idle, check the gauges, temperatures, etc. It has dual P-mags and a > Dynon D-180, Anywhere Map Pro, B&C alternator and starter, Microair > radio and transponder, etc. All gauges, switches and readouts > performed as expected in the earlier runs! RPM, voltages and > temperatures were in the ball park. Modified Z13-8 wiring. Started > with the Z13-8, then modified it as I went along. > > This last video, though, it couldn't wait for me to finish...at 2250 > RPM, it jumped the right chock and tried to fly! > > http://youtu.be/LJVIl1ERwSA > > Harley Dixon > Long EZ N28EZ (finally all done...just have to reassemble) > Hangar 29 > Canandaigua Airport, Canandaigua, NY ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: After 30 years...
>This last video, though, it couldn't wait for me to finish...at 2250 >RPM, it jumped the right chock and tried to fly! Cool! Looks like you're getting close . . . but please consider acquiring on-purpose wheel chocks. Airplanes with the fans on the front can at least be tied to a post, pushers demand a different precaution. It would be a shame to drag the airplane back to the shop for repairs . . . or cart you to the hospital . . . Post some first flight photos and videos! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 2012
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Re: After 30 years...
Actually, that video was just a last minute thought...after I had the cowlings mounted, I though I'd take that just for my friends who would think it was even more unfinished if they could see the motor. I made the nose bumper from a hopper mount I rescued from work...it is hard rubber, molded around a steel plate with 3/8-16 threaded tube in it... I have a ring bolt that I thread into it and then lash that to the battery outside the plane when I want to keep it from moving...tying it down from the front! I use normal chocks as well...just not for that video! Pictures and videos will definitely be following. Harley ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> This last video, though, it couldn't wait for me to >> finish...at 2250 RPM, it jumped the right chock and tried to fly! > > Cool! Looks like you're getting close . . . but please > consider acquiring on-purpose wheel chocks. Airplanes > with the fans on the front can at least be tied to a > post, pushers demand a different precaution. It would > be a shame to drag the airplane back to the shop for > repairs . . . or cart you to the hospital . . . > > Post some first flight photos and videos! > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: SkyView power wires
> >I do not understand the reasoning for using two power wires instead >of one larger wire. In fact, it would seem that just one small wire >would handle the 5 amp load with ease. >Joe That IS a puzzlement . . . I don't recall the first time I saw doubled-up power and ground wires on radios . . . but it was some years back. Why would a designer think that paralleled 20AWG wires on a 0.5A continuous, 4A intermittent load be a good thing to do? I think I've seen it on more than one brand of radio. Reduced supply impedance? Not very likely. Increased redundancy? Hmmmm . . . more plausible. Redundancy is not well addressed . . . one of the wires could be bad and you\ wouldn't know it. I.e. redundancy that calls for periodic inspection to retain its value in the reliability tree. Current sharing on d-sub pins? Also plausible but again, the pins are not really being stressed that hard. The conundrum does not yield to present reasoning. If it were my radio, I'd do the paralleling thing with 6 inch, 22AWG wires in the pins dropped into a splice with 20AWG lead wire to power and ground. Robust . . . and doesn't let a perfectly good ground or power pin go to waste. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Mag noise
>The shields should be grounded at the engine end only. >I think this may fix your problem. Thank you for your quick response to my problem. I have been wrestling with this for two weeks. Every book I have on the subject says to ground both ends of the shielding. In any event I took your advise and the noise is gone. Medicine Lodge brings back memories to me, I went to school at Emporia and my roomate was from there. I trained on B-29s at Smoky Hill Air Base in WWII. Thank you again for your help, it is much appreciated. Ed Dunn I think this is perhaps the third time this particular set of conditions propagated ignition noise into the rest of the airplane. I'm not sure I understand the exact mode of propagation for noise but whether we understand it or not, it's a demonstrably good thing to do. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: cable noises
At 11:14 AM 9/14/2012, you wrote: Hello Bob, I don't really know if I'm writting this message to the right address, I actually wanted to post a message in the general forum but haven't figured out how to do so; so this is why I'm writing you. I see you're already signed up for a number of lists on matronics. You've probably discovered that you can join a conversation by simply replying to a message. You can start a new one by simply sending your query to aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com This will start a new conversation titled with what ever words you put in the subject line. I'm a builder of an RV7A in Spain and just wanted to ask for some advise regarding the way that the antenna cables need to be routed inside the plane. In other words, I know that big pulses like the strobes will generate noise in the antena cables if they come close enough, but what about bundling several antenna cables together like the VOR, coms, gps and marker for example; can they interfere each other or cause noise to each other? Also besides the strobe power cables, what other cable should run far enough from the antenna cables typically, and also what is "far enough" reasonable? Actually, there's no practical value for separating properly installed coax cables from other properly installed system wires. In the heavy iron airplanes, every system installer will fight tooth and nail to secure space and volume in the airplane for his task. Wires running from one place to another MUST join with wires from any and all other systems who have found favor with the airframe turf-gods. Artfully designed and installed systems for aircraft will happily co-exist both for location of black-boxes and airframe wire routes. So bundle your wires for convenience and judicious used of space and $time$. If you find that you do have a problem, it's generally easier to fix the errors of installation than to put a band-aid on it (repositioning, ferrite beads, filters, etc.). Use good coax. RG-400/141/142 or LMR-195 and good practice for termination. You've got a 99.9% probability of being golden. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Loram" <johnl(at)loram.org>
Subject: Fuel Pressure Sensor search
Date: Sep 14, 2012
Searching for a low pressure 7.5psi (0.5 bar) fuel (avgas) pressure sensor. Can be either two or three terminal. thanks for leads (brands or unused items), -john- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 2012
From: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net>
Subject: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
All,=0A-=0AAttached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch =0Ato control the flaps with LED indicators to show the po sition settings.- The =0Arotary switch will have a lever that not only gi ves a tactile feel indicating =0Aposition but will point to the LED.- I b elieve this setup will work but would =0Alike some review.- I have also i ncluded absolute limit switched to ensure that =0Aan over-run will not occu r due to a bad relay.=0A-=0ABob Reed ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Daniel Hooper <enginerdy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
Date: Sep 14, 2012
I like your idea, using simple limit switches and relays for position control, but it I'm having trouble with what will happen under the following condition: Say for the sake of clarity the flap positions are up, 10, 20, and 30.. The flaps are up, and the green LED is lit. I set flaps to 20, which will open the 10 switch, then the 20 switch. The flap movement completes and the 20 deg yellow LED lights. I set flaps back to 10, because I didn't mean to go all the way to 20. ... =46rom what I can see, the yellow 10 LED will be lit, but the flaps will not move from the 20 degree position. That is, to get the flaps to retract under any circumstance, you need to turn the knob to 'up'. It's possible I'm not seeing something though. You definitely should turn the LEDs around so that they "point" to ground, and you'll either need to use 12V LEDs with internal resistors, or provide series resistors somewhere in the range of 1k Ohm. I like your limit cutoff switches -- it makes the flaps retractable or extendable even if the limit is somehow hit due to a transient problem. It might be handy to add 'limit cutoff' LEDs on them as well. --Daniel On Sep 14, 2012, at 6:51 PM, Robert Reed wrote: > All, > > > Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe this setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay. > > > Bob Reed > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
Date: Sep 14, 2012
Robert see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcBvmL-FxYQ It's a demo of a flap controller that uses a pot for position-sense & is field_programmable. _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Reed Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 16:52 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? All, Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe this setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay. Bob Reed ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 2012
From: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
Daniel, =0A=0AYou are correct, the setup will step down but not up.- Turn ing the switch back =0Ato 10 would stop the movement if beyond the 10 degre es but would not return it =0Ato 10 degrees.- In trying to maintain the K ISS design could not come up with a =0Asimple return to the prior setting - I agree with the indicators for the overrun =0Alimit switches and have considered that.- I do have the 12v LED's but wasn't =0Aaware of the diff erence on the symbols.- =0A=0A=0AThanks for your input.=0A=0ABob=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Daniel Hooper <enginerdy@gma il.com>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Fri, September 14, 20 12 7:24:05 PM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - wi ll it work?=0A=0AI like your idea, using simple limit switches and relays f or position control, =0Abut it I'm having trouble with what will happen und er the following condition: =0A=0A=0ASay for the sake of clarity the flap p ositions are up, 10, 20, and 30..=0A=0AThe flaps are up, and the green LED is lit.=0AI set flaps to 20, which will open the 10 switch, then the 20 swi tch. The flap =0Amovement completes and the 20 deg yellow LED lights.=0AI s et flaps back to 10, because I didn't mean to go all the way to 20.=0A... =0AFrom what I can see, the yellow 10 LED will be lit, but the flaps will n ot move =0Afrom the 20 degree position.=0A=0AThat is, to get the flaps to r etract under any circumstance, you need to turn =0Athe knob to 'up'.=0A=0AI t's possible I'm not seeing something though.=0A=0A=0AYou definitely should turn the LEDs around so that they "point" to ground, and =0Ayou'll either need to use 12V LEDs with internal resistors, or provide series =0Aresistor s somewhere in the range of 1k Ohm.=0A=0AI like your limit cutoff switches -- it makes the flaps retractable or =0Aextendable even if the limit is som ehow hit due to a transient problem. It might =0Abe handy to add 'limit cut off' LEDs on them as well.=0A=0A--Daniel=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Sep 14, 2012, at 6:5 1 PM, Robert Reed wrote:=0A=0AAll,=0A>-=0A>=0A>Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch =0A>to control the fla ps with LED indicators to show the position settings.- The =0A>rotary swi tch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating =0A>pos ition but will point to the LED.- I believe this setup will work but woul d =0A>like some review.- I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure that =0A>an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay.=0A>-=0A> ====== =0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 2012
From: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
One thought...should I reverse the setup on the Over Retract Limit switch? - =0AAfter looking at it I think it would result in a direct short to gro und which =0Awould probably blow the fuse.- Am I thinking right?- What I am trying to =0Aaccomplish is to break the circuit while still allowing t he reversal.=0A=0ABob=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom : Daniel Hooper =0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Fri, September 14, 2012 7:24:05 PM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-Lis t: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?=0A=0AI like your idea, using simp le limit switches and relays for position control, =0Abut it I'm having tro uble with what will happen under the following condition: =0A=0A=0ASay for the sake of clarity the flap positions are up, 10, 20, and 30..=0A=0AThe fl aps are up, and the green LED is lit.=0AI set flaps to 20, which will open the 10 switch, then the 20 switch. The flap =0Amovement completes and the 2 0 deg yellow LED lights.=0AI set flaps back to 10, because I didn't mean to go all the way to 20.=0A...=0AFrom what I can see, the yellow 10 LED will be lit, but the flaps will not move =0Afrom the 20 degree position.=0A=0ATh at is, to get the flaps to retract under any circumstance, you need to turn =0Athe knob to 'up'.=0A=0AIt's possible I'm not seeing something though. =0A=0A=0AYou definitely should turn the LEDs around so that they "point" to ground, and =0Ayou'll either need to use 12V LEDs with internal resistors, or provide series =0Aresistors somewhere in the range of 1k Ohm.=0A=0AI li ke your limit cutoff switches -- it makes the flaps retractable or =0Aexten dable even if the limit is somehow hit due to a transient problem. It might =0Abe handy to add 'limit cutoff' LEDs on them as well.=0A=0A--Daniel=0A =0A=0A=0AOn Sep 14, 2012, at 6:51 PM, Robert Reed wrote:=0A=0AAll,=0A>- =0A>=0A>Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 posi tion switch =0A>to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the positi on settings.- The =0A>rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating =0A>position but will point to the LED.- I bel ieve this setup will work but would =0A>like some review.- I have also in cluded absolute limit switched to ensure that =0A>an over-run will not occu r due to a bad relay.=0A>-=0A>=0A>Bob Reed=0A=0A ================= =0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 2012
From: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
I like where they are going with it.=0A=0ABOB=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______________ _________________=0AFrom: Jeff Luckey <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>=0ATo: aeroelect ric-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Fri, September 14, 2012 7:58:07 PM=0ASubject : RE: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?=0A=0A=0ARob ert see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcBvmL-FxYQ=0A=C2-=0AIt =99s a demo of a flap controller that uses a pot for position-sense & is =0Afield_programmable.=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=0A_____________________________ ___=0A=0AFrom:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com =0A[mailto:owner -aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Reed=0ASent: F riday, September 14, 2012 16:52=0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com=0ASub ject: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?=0A=C2-=0A All,=0A=C2-=0AAttached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotar y 4 position switch =0Ato control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position settings.=C2- The =0Arotary switch will have a lever that not o nly gives a tactile feel indicating =0Aposition but will point to the LED. =C2- I believe this setup will work but would =0Alike some review.=C2- I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure that =0Aan over-run ============ =0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Pressure Sensor search
At 06:38 PM 9/14/2012, you wrote: > >Searching for a low pressure 7.5psi (0.5 bar) fuel (avgas) pressure sensor. >Can be either two or three terminal. > >thanks for leads (brands or unused items), -john- Finding such a critter with a full scale range that small is problematic . . . especially one with all metal pressure-side materials that would be okay with gasoline. Suggest you look at something like this http://tinyurl.com/9uw647y http://tinyurl.com/8unuxge http://tinyurl.com/983v7o7 http://tinyurl.com/99xfyrs This is a small sample of possibilities. They're all aerospace grade devices at very reasonable prices compared to off the shelf new. Even as used devices, transducers of this genre' are likely to be a better value than automotive devices. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 2012
Subject: Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
From: Nati Niv <n992dn(at)gmail.com>
Rob It will not work. I understand the KIS approach that leads you to use relays/micro switches only. Unfortunately designing such thing will require some level of electronic involves and the reason for it is that you need to know *at all times* what the position of the flaps is because you need to tell the motor to which direction to go, up/down. Using micro switch as a location sensing lacks this capability, it =93senses=94 at only one position, the position t o which you set it mechanically along the motor travel. The moment the motor moves from that position you have no indication of where you are. The most common sense to use as sensing device would be a potentiometer, and then you need some electronics to sense and compare (comparators). I would even think basing the design on the LM3914 10 LED driver. When it was time for me to change the flap system on my RANS 6 from manual to electric I thought, as an electronic fan about deferent designs but eventually find myself using this: http://www.e-motionllc.com/Feedback_actuator_p/fa-po-150-12-2.htm As the actuator (it has built in potentiometer) And this as a controller. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/electronicsflapcontroller.php A little pricy, I know but works, I love every second flying the 6 with this arrangement Nati RANS 6 Illinois On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Robert Reed wrote: > All, > > > Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position > switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position > settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a > tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe th is > setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolut e > limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad rel ay. > > > Bob Reed > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 2012
From: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Pressure Sensor search
Interesting. The first is one made by my company. Dick Tasker Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 06:38 PM 9/14/2012, you wrote: >> >> Searching for a low pressure 7.5psi (0.5 bar) fuel (avgas) pressure sensor. >> Can be either two or three terminal. >> >> thanks for leads (brands or unused items), -john- > > Finding such a critter with a full scale > range that small is problematic . . . especially > one with all metal pressure-side materials > that would be okay with gasoline. > > Suggest you look at something like this > > http://tinyurl.com/9uw647y > http://tinyurl.com/8unuxge > http://tinyurl.com/983v7o7 > http://tinyurl.com/99xfyrs > > This is a small sample of possibilities. > They're all aerospace grade devices at > very reasonable prices compared to off the > shelf new. Even as used devices, transducers > of this genre' are likely to be a better > value than automotive devices. > > > Bob . . . > > -- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 2012
From: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
Nati,=0A=0ASorry, I only showed the electrical and did not explain the mech anics of the =0Aoperation.=C2- =0A=0A=0AThe micro-switches will be locate d in a channel with the ability to move them to =0Aadjust the positions.=C2 - A slide bar will be attached to the trim control arm.=C2- =0AThe slid e bar will close each switch in line during the retract operation and =0Aop en each in line during the extend.=C2- During the retract operation only the =0Aretract circuit will be powered by the rotary switch with the intent of full =0Aretraction and not stepped retraction.=C2- During extension, only one circuit can =0Abe active at any time and that circuit will close a s soon as the slide bar =0Apasses the switch allowing it to open.=C2- The indicator lights will only light =0Awhen the desired circuit is active and the switch is open.=C2- It should allow for =0Aeither stepped flap exten sion or full extension with one operation.=0A=0ABob=0A=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0A=0A =0A________________________________=0AFrom: Nati Niv <n992dn(at)gmail.com>=0AT o: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Fri, September 14, 2012 10:14:26 PM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work ?=0A=0A=0ARob=0A=C2-=0AIt will not work.=0AI understand the KIS approach that leads you to use relays/micro switches only. =0AUnfortunately designin g such thing will require some level of electronic =0Ainvolves and the reas on for it is that you need to know at all times what the =0Aposition of the flaps is because you need to tell the motor to which direction =0Ato go, u p/down. Using micro switch as a location sensing lacks this capability, =0A it =9Csenses=9D at only one position, the position to which you set it mechanically =0Aalong the motor travel. The moment the motor moves from that position you have =0Ano indication of where you are. The most com mon sense to use as sensing device =0Awould be a potentiometer, and then yo u need some electronics to sense and =0Acompare (comparators). I would even think basing the design on the LM3914 10 LED =0Adriver. =0A=0AWhen it was time for me to change the flap system on my RANS 6 from manual to =0Aelectr ic I thought, as an electronic fan about deferent designs but eventually =0Afind myself using this:=0A=C2-=0Ahttp://www.e-motionllc.com/Feedback_a ctuator_p/fa-po-150-12-2.htm=0A=C2-=0AAs the actuator (it has built in po tentiometer) =0A=C2-=0AAnd this as a controller.=0A=C2-=0Ahttp://www.ai rcraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/electronicsflapcontroller.php=0A=C2-=0AA little pricy, I know but works, I love every second flying the 6 with this =0Aarrangement=0A=C2-=0ANati=0ARANS 6=0AIllinois =C2-=C2-=0A=C2- =0A=0A=0AOn Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Robert Reed wrote:=0A=0AAll,=0A>=C2-=0A>Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch =0A>to control the flaps with LED indicat ors to show the position settings.=C2- The =0A>rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating =0A>position but will p oint to the LED.=C2- I believe this setup will work but would =0A>like so me review.=C2- I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure tha t =0A>an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay.=0A>=C2-=0A>Bob Reed =================== =0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 2012
Subject: Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
From: Nati Niv <n992dn(at)gmail.com>
Hummmmm If thats the case, let me think again... Nati On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Robert Reed wrote: > Nati, > > Sorry, I only showed the electrical and did not explain the mechanics of > the operation. > > The micro-switches will be located in a channel with the ability to move > them to adjust the positions. A slide bar will be attached to the trim > control arm. The slide bar will close each switch in line during the > retract operation and open each in line during the extend. During the > retract operation only the retract circuit will be powered by the rotary > switch with the intent of full retraction and not stepped retraction. > During extension, only one circuit can be active at any time and that > circuit will close as soon as the slide bar passes the switch allowing it > to open. The indicator lights will only light when the desired circuit i s > active and the switch is open. It should allow for either stepped flap > extension or full extension with one operation. > > Bob > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Nati Niv > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Sent:* Fri, September 14, 2012 10:14:26 PM > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? > > Rob > > > It will not work. > > I understand the KIS approach that leads you to use relays/micro switches > only. Unfortunately designing such thing will require some level of > electronic involves and the reason for it is that you need to know *at > all times* what the position of the flaps is because you need to tell the > motor to which direction to go, up/down. Using micro switch as a location > sensing lacks this capability, it =93senses=94 at only one position, the > position to which you set it mechanically along the motor travel. The > moment the motor moves from that position you have no indication of where > you are. The most common sense to use as sensing device would be a > potentiometer, and then you need some electronics to sense and compare > (comparators). I would even think basing the design on the LM3914 10 LED > driver. > > When it was time for me to change the flap system on my RANS 6 from manua l > to electric I thought, as an electronic fan about deferent designs but > eventually find myself using this: > > > http://www.e-motionllc.com/Feedback_actuator_p/fa-po-150-12-2.htm > > > As the actuator (it has built in potentiometer) > > > And this as a controller. > > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/electronicsflapcontroller.p hp > > > A little pricy, I know but works, I love every second flying the 6 with > this arrangement > > > Nati > > RANS 6 > > Illinois > > > On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Robert Reed wrote: > >> All, >> >> >> >> Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position >> switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position >> settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a >> tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe t his >> setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolu te >> limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad re lay. >> >> >> >> Bob Reed >> > > * > > om/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www .mhref="http://forums.matronics.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http :/========= > * > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 2012
Subject: Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
From: Nati Niv <n992dn(at)gmail.com>
Bob Now, that I understand the mechanical design I have a solution including to the =93moving from any position to any position up/down=94 can you send me the diagram in a format other than PDF and I will returned it corrected? Now that I understand I really the simplicity of it. Nati On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Robert Reed wrote: > Nati, > > Sorry, I only showed the electrical and did not explain the mechanics of > the operation. > > The micro-switches will be located in a channel with the ability to move > them to adjust the positions. A slide bar will be attached to the trim > control arm. The slide bar will close each switch in line during the > retract operation and open each in line during the extend. During the > retract operation only the retract circuit will be powered by the rotary > switch with the intent of full retraction and not stepped retraction. > During extension, only one circuit can be active at any time and that > circuit will close as soon as the slide bar passes the switch allowing it > to open. The indicator lights will only light when the desired circuit i s > active and the switch is open. It should allow for either stepped flap > extension or full extension with one operation. > > Bob > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Nati Niv > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Sent:* Fri, September 14, 2012 10:14:26 PM > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? > > Rob > > > It will not work. > > I understand the KIS approach that leads you to use relays/micro switches > only. Unfortunately designing such thing will require some level of > electronic involves and the reason for it is that you need to know *at > all times* what the position of the flaps is because you need to tell the > motor to which direction to go, up/down. Using micro switch as a location > sensing lacks this capability, it =93senses=94 at only one position, the > position to which you set it mechanically along the motor travel. The > moment the motor moves from that position you have no indication of where > you are. The most common sense to use as sensing device would be a > potentiometer, and then you need some electronics to sense and compare > (comparators). I would even think basing the design on the LM3914 10 LED > driver. > > When it was time for me to change the flap system on my RANS 6 from manua l > to electric I thought, as an electronic fan about deferent designs but > eventually find myself using this: > > > http://www.e-motionllc.com/Feedback_actuator_p/fa-po-150-12-2.htm > > > As the actuator (it has built in potentiometer) > > > And this as a controller. > > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/electronicsflapcontroller.p hp > > > A little pricy, I know but works, I love every second flying the 6 with > this arrangement > > > Nati > > RANS 6 > > Illinois > > > On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Robert Reed wrote: > >> All, >> >> >> >> Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position >> switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position >> settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a >> tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe t his >> setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolu te >> limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad re lay. >> >> >> >> Bob Reed >> > > * > > om/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www .mhref="http://forums.matronics.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http :/========= > * > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com>
Subject: USB power socket
Date: Sep 15, 2012
Hi Is this what I need to mount a USB (power) outlet for my 12/14volt RV http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200816366519?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 Regards John ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: USB power socket
From: Daniel Hooper <enginerdy(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 15, 2012
That should work. Of course, you'll need something to generate the regulated 5V supply. If you want a more main stream source, here's the mouser listing: http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=NAUSB-W Or for you, maybe the farnell uk listing is more appropriate: http://uk.farnell.com/neutrik/nausb-w/adaptor-usb/dp/1760681?Ntt=NAUSB-W You can also get the NAUSB-W-B, which is the black version. On Sep 15, 2012, at 4:16 AM, JOHN TIPTON wrote: > > Hi > > Is this what I need to mount a USB (power) outlet for my 12/14volt RV > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200816366519?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 > > Regards > > John > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 2012
Subject: Re: USB power socket
From: Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
John, I don't think so, it looks like this only provides a hard mounted USB socket - it does not do any voltage transforming. You would have to use a normal USB cable in the back side to connect to a 12/15v to 5v transformer. See http://www.neutrik.com/uk/en/dataconnectors/210_t2_619292854/NAUSB-W_detail.aspx Peter On 15 September 2012 10:16, JOHN TIPTON wrote: > jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> > > Hi > > Is this what I need to mount a USB (power) outlet for my 12/14volt RV > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/**200816366519?ssPageName=STRK:** > MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.**l2649<http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200816366519?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649> > > Regards > > John > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 2012
Subject: Re: USB power socket
From: Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
John, Perhaps something like this http://www.hobbytronics.co.uk/batteries/pololu-stepup-down-regulator or this http://www.hobbytronics.co.uk/batteries/step-down-regulator-5v-3v3 will fit the bill? Mount in a project box. Peter On 15 September 2012 10:41, Peter Pengilly wrote: > John, > > I don't think so, it looks like this only provides a hard mounted USB > socket - it does not do any voltage transforming. You would have to use a > normal USB cable in the back side to connect to a 12/15v to 5v transformer. > > See > http://www.neutrik.com/uk/en/dataconnectors/210_t2_619292854/NAUSB-W_detail.aspx > > > Peter > > > On 15 September 2012 10:16, JOHN TIPTON wrote: > >> jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> >> >> Hi >> >> Is this what I need to mount a USB (power) outlet for my 12/14volt RV >> >> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/**200816366519?ssPageName=STRK:** >> MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.**l2649<http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200816366519?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649> >> >> Regards >> >> John >> >> >> >> >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 2012
From: Sauli Aalto <sauli.aalto(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
Robert Reed skrev 2012-09-15 01:51: > > All, > > Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 > position switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the > position settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only > gives a tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I > believe this setup will work but would like some review. I have also > included absolute limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not > occur due to a bad relay. > > Bob Reed > Hi folks! I know a guy who already made this working with a microprocessor-thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY7OYysvW_8 Sauli ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: USB power socket
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: Sep 15, 2012
John, How 'bout installing a simple 12 volt outlet. They are available through Amazon, ebay, auto parts, marine parts (waterproof!), etc. Then get a nice single or double USB power port to plug into it. For instance, here's a bunch of stuff from Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&keywords=usb%2012%20volt%20adapter&page=1&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Ausb%2012%20volt%20adapter Or there's something like this 12 Volt Power Point with 5 volt USB Powerpoint Outlet from ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-Volt-Power-Point-with-5-volt-USB-Powerpoint-Outlet-/370409173256 It's only a single outlet, but maybe that's all you need. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On Sep 15, 2012, at 4:16 AM, JOHN TIPTON wrote: Hi Is this what I need to mount a USB (power) outlet for my 12/14volt RV http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200816366519?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 Regards John ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: USB power socket
At 08:48 AM 9/15/2012, you wrote: > >John, > >How 'bout installing a simple 12 volt outlet. They are available >through Amazon, ebay, auto parts, marine parts (waterproof!), >etc. Then get a nice single or double USB power port to plug into >it. For instance, here's a bunch of stuff from Amazon: You beat me to it. Thanks! I was going to comment that there's a boat-load of technology and product to apply to the task but many 'solutions' require fabrication, mounting of multiple components, wrestling with noise issues for some 5v down-converter products, wiring, etc. The pre-packaged devices Bob points out offer turn-key solutions for installation. By picking down-converters designed to fit on or inside the legacy cigar-lighter socket, one may easily replace a noisy converter for one more accommodating without having to wrestle with mounting/re-wiring issues. All-in-all I think an elegant, low labor, low risk solution. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Cole <LynnCole(at)foxvalley.net>
Subject: Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
Date: Sep 15, 2012
Very nice! However, did I hear a little overshoot followed by a slight reversal when the intermediate positions were selected? ----- Lynn Cole LynnCole(at)foxvalley.net On Sep 14, 2012, at 7:55 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote: > Robert see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcBvmL-FxYQ > > It=92s a demo of a flap controller that uses a pot for position-sense & is field_programmable. > > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Reed > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 16:52 > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? > > All, > > > > Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe this setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absolute limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay. > > > > Bob Reed > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Jean Curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Nav/position light specs
Date: Sep 15, 2012
I am considering a "roll your own" set of LED lights for my homebuilt aircraft. I know that I have seen the specs here on this forum. Can someone point me in the direction of the FAA specs for the navigation/position lights. Thanks, Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 2012
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Subject: Re: Nav/position light specs
/*TSO C30c and C96a */ On 9/15/2012 4:55 PM, Roger & Jean Curtis wrote: > > I am considering a "roll your own" set of LED lights for my homebuilt > aircraft. I know that I have seen the specs here on this forum. Can > someone point me in the direction of the FAA specs for the > navigation/position lights. > > Thanks, > > Roger > > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 16, 2012
Subject: Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
From: Nati Niv <n992dn(at)gmail.com>
Bob Here is something that will work for you: from any to any (position), with limit switches and based on electromechanical (relays 7 of them they can be very small) and 11 diodes, more complex but it will work . For that to work properly you will need to modify the mechanical design in a way that only one micro switch is make at a time, you will also have different LED indication compared to your design: only one LED will be lit at a time indicating current flap position. Have fun Nati On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Nati Niv wrote: > Bob > > > Now, that I understand the mechanical design I have a solution including > to the =93moving from any position to any position up/down=94 can you sen d me > the diagram in a format other than PDF and I will returned it corrected? > Now that I understand I really the simplicity of it. > > > Nati > > > On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Robert Reed wrote: > >> Nati, >> >> Sorry, I only showed the electrical and did not explain the mechanics of >> the operation. >> >> The micro-switches will be located in a channel with the ability to move >> them to adjust the positions. A slide bar will be attached to the trim >> control arm. The slide bar will close each switch in line during the >> retract operation and open each in line during the extend. During the >> retract operation only the retract circuit will be powered by the rotary >> switch with the intent of full retraction and not stepped retraction. >> During extension, only one circuit can be active at any time and that >> circuit will close as soon as the slide bar passes the switch allowing i t >> to open. The indicator lights will only light when the desired circuit is >> active and the switch is open. It should allow for either stepped flap >> extension or full extension with one operation. >> >> Bob >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Nati Niv >> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >> *Sent:* Fri, September 14, 2012 10:14:26 PM >> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? >> >> Rob >> >> >> >> It will not work. >> >> I understand the KIS approach that leads you to use relays/micro switche s >> only. Unfortunately designing such thing will require some level of >> electronic involves and the reason for it is that you need to know *at >> all times* what the position of the flaps is because you need to tell >> the motor to which direction to go, up/down. Using micro switch as a >> location sensing lacks this capability, it =93senses=94 at only one posi tion, >> the position to which you set it mechanically along the motor travel. Th e >> moment the motor moves from that position you have no indication of wher e >> you are. The most common sense to use as sensing device would be a >> potentiometer, and then you need some electronics to sense and compare >> (comparators). I would even think basing the design on the LM3914 10 LED >> driver. >> >> When it was time for me to change the flap system on my RANS 6 from >> manual to electric I thought, as an electronic fan about deferent design s >> but eventually find myself using this: >> >> >> >> http://www.e-motionllc.com/Feedback_actuator_p/fa-po-150-12-2.htm >> >> >> >> As the actuator (it has built in potentiometer) >> >> >> >> And this as a controller. >> >> >> >> >> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/electronicsflapcontroller. php >> >> >> >> A little pricy, I know but works, I love every second flying the 6 with >> this arrangement >> >> >> >> Nati >> >> RANS 6 >> >> Illinois >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Robert Reed wrote: >> >>> All, >>> >>> >>> >>> Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position >>> switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position >>> settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a >>> tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe this >>> setup will work but would like some review. I have also included absol ute >>> limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad r elay. >>> >>> >>> >>> Bob Reed >>> >> >> * >> >> om/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://ww w.mhref="http://forums.matronics.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>htt p:/========= >> * >> >> * >> =========== =========== =========== =========== >> * >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: USB Power Socket
From: Ralph <hooverra(at)comcast.net>
Date: Sep 16, 2012
I used a USB socket designed for one of the card slots in a PC. It takes a small rectangular hole and two screw holes in the panel. This is powered by a 12vdc to 5 vdc switcher Mean Well from Mouser. Mine was for my I Pad which requires that you bias the data lines or the charger doesn't. Bob's solution using the cigar lighter socket and a plug in USB charger does simplify the problem. I don't particularly like Cigar lighter outlets as a power connector due to size, they are purpose built to heat a coil to light a cigar not as a GP power outlet but they work. If you use a plug in adaptor make sure that it's rated output is enough for the purpose. Ralph Sent from my iPad ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Nav/position light specs
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Sep 16, 2012
"...Roll your own LED position lights..." I have published a lot on this and need o get this stuff back on my website. I took it off to work on it, so it needs updating...but the specs are still the same. Remember-- 1) You never use bright narrow angle LEDs and then try to fill in the required spatial distribution. (A narrow exception to this rule might be LED beacons). 2) Many LED products are simply bogus. The attached paper will make you smart enough to tell the difference. 3) Your buddy who rolls their own (or buys a poorly designed product) puts YOU in grave danger. Don't let them do it. The attached was rewritten for Kitplanes, but they rejected it perfunctorily. My writing is intentionally a bit edgey--as any reader of this blog will tell you. Comments appreciated. I used to sell my red and green LED position lights, but like so many products, I discontinued them because of the labor involved. But one of my first customers called to thank me...he landed at a dark field in Texas with failed landing lights. But as he got closer to the runway the LED position lights illuminated the runway. Those babies were bright. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383219#383219 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/ledlighting_article_207.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com>
Subject: Re: Nav/position light specs
Date: Sep 16, 2012
The items made by Ztron Labs are very price competitive which may make the 'roll your own' option not worth it John (RV9a-Wings complete) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger & Jean Curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 12:55 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Nav/position light specs > > > I am considering a "roll your own" set of LED lights for my homebuilt > aircraft. I know that I have seen the specs here on this forum. Can > someone point me in the direction of the FAA specs for the > navigation/position lights. > > Thanks, > > Roger > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R. curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Nav/position light specs
Date: Sep 16, 2012
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Nav/position light specs Thanks everyone for your great info. Now I must digest it and come up with a plan. Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
From: LES KEARNEY <Kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Sep 16, 2012
Subject: Re: USB power socket
Hi Why not use something like this. Purpose built for cars and 12V systems. http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/4/Auto/VehicleAccessories/InteriorCarGadgets/PRD~0374496P/USB+12V+Auxiliary+Power+Outlet.jsp?locale=en Cheers Les ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com> Date: Saturday, September 15, 2012 3:53 am Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: USB power socket > John, > > I don't think so, it looks like this only provides a hard > mounted USB > socket - it does not do any voltage transforming. You would have > to use a > normal USB cable in the back side to connect to a 12/15v to 5v > transformer. > See > http://www.neutrik.com/uk/en/dataconnectors/210_t2_619292854/NAUSB-W_detail.aspx > > > Peter > > On 15 September 2012 10:16, JOHN TIPTON > wrote: > > > jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> > > > > Hi > > > > Is this what I need to mount a USB (power) outlet for my > 12/14volt RV > > > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/**200816366519?ssPageName=STRK:** > > > MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.**l2649<http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200816366519?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649>> > > Regards > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: USB power socket
From: John Tipton <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com>
Date: Sep 16, 2012
Perfect Sent from my iPad On 16 Sep 2012, at 16:25, LES KEARNEY wrote: > Hi > > Why not use something like this. Purpose built for cars and 12V systems. > > http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/4/Auto/VehicleAccessories/InteriorCa rGadgets/PRD~0374496P/USB+12V+Auxiliary+Power+Outlet.jsp?locale=en > > Cheers > > Les > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com> > Date: Saturday, September 15, 2012 3:53 am > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: USB power socket > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > > > John, > > > > I don't think so, it looks like this only provides a hard > > mounted USB > > socket - it does not do any voltage transforming. You would have > > to use a > > normal USB cable in the back side to connect to a 12/15v to 5v > > transformer. > > See > > http://www.neutrik.com/uk/en/dataconnectors/210_t2_619292854/NAUSB-W_det ail.aspx > > > > > > Peter > > > > On 15 September 2012 10:16, JOHN TIPTON > > wrote: > > > > > jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > Is this what I need to mount a USB (power) outlet for my > > 12/14volt RV > > > > > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/**200816366519?ssPageName=STRK:** > > > > > MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.**l2649<http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2008163 66519?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649>> > > > Regards > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 16, 2012
From: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com>
Subject: Why multiple skinny power wires?
On 9/14/2012 10:26 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > Redundancy is not well addressed > . . . one of the wires could be bad and you\ > wouldn't know it Bob, on the GNS480 (nee CNX80) IImorrow/Apollo (now Garmin) addressed that by inhibiting certain functions of the radio if both leads weren't hot. For instance, I think the comm radio or the VOR receiver quits if both leads aren't hot. Of course, if you didn't know that, you'd think you'd have a bad radio... and nowadays, Garmin will happily relieve of you $1000 to advise that "bench tests OK"... :-) Paul -- Please note my new email address! millner(at)me.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Why multiple skinny power wires?
From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: Sep 16, 2012
The 430 does this with nav and comm functions. Not sure why you would ever want only one of functions but the option is there. Tim Sent from my iPhone On Sep 16, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Paul Millner wrote: > > > On 9/14/2012 10:26 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> Redundancy is not well addressed >> . . . one of the wires could be bad and you\ >> wouldn't know it > > Bob, on the GNS480 (nee CNX80) IImorrow/Apollo (now Garmin) addressed that by inhibiting certain functions of the radio if both leads weren't hot. For instance, I think the comm radio or the VOR receiver quits if both leads aren't hot. > > Of course, if you didn't know that, you'd think you'd have a bad radio... and nowadays, Garmin will happily relieve of you $1000 to advise that "bench tests OK"... :-) > > Paul > > -- > Please note my new email address! > millner(at)me.com > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 16, 2012
From: John Grosse <grosseair(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Why multiple skinny power wires?
Those are multiple wires to multiple pins, not multiple wires to the SAME pin as in the original post from the SkyRadar installer. The 430 specifies a 10A CB on the com and a 5A CB for the Nav. I suppose they could have used one 15A circuit, but that would require larger wire that wouldn't fit in the connector pins. That makes sense. John Grosse > Tim Andres > September 16, 2012 3:58 PM > > > The 430 does this with nav and comm functions. Not sure why you would > ever want only one of functions but the option is there. > Tim > > Sent from my iPhone > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Why multiple skinny power wires?
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Sep 16, 2012
I have no idea. However...consider the case where several high-current devices are driven off a single power source simultaneously. In that case a substantial amount of weight can be saved by using "tree" architecture for the wiring harness, instead of "bus" architecture. Essentially each high current device likely to be on simultaneously has it's own smaller conductor. All these are bundled into the main trunk, which gets larger and larger the closer to the battery you get. At the battery, the tree has many separate circuit breakers and perhaps remote switches. Advantage: Lighter weight. Disadvantage: Greater complexity. The fraction of aircraft weight attributed to wiring is reasonably small. However, if you're going to Jupiter...or building a multi-engine electric airplane, it's a big concern. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383263#383263 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: USB Power Socket
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: Sep 16, 2012
Ralph, The 12 volt power socket I suggest is not a cigar lighter and not intended for that use. It is a purpose built 12 volt power socket that is in a form factor similar to the old cigar lighter outlet but it is not the same thing. It is to be used to provide 12 volt power to devices such as the USB adaptors. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On Sep 16, 2012, at 7:47 AM, Ralph wrote: I used a USB socket designed for one of the card slots in a PC. It takes a small rectangular hole and two screw holes in the panel. This is powered by a 12vdc to 5 vdc switcher Mean Well from Mouser. Mine was for my I Pad which requires that you bias the data lines or the charger doesn't. Bob's solution using the cigar lighter socket and a plug in USB charger does simplify the problem. I don't particularly like Cigar lighter outlets as a power connector due to size, they are purpose built to heat a coil to light a cigar not as a GP power outlet but they work. If you use a plug in adaptor make sure that it's rated output is enough for the purpose. Ralph ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 16, 2012
From: fedico94(at)mchsi.com
Subject: Re: USB Power Socket
I have installed 2 of these in my homebuilt and no radio interference on the voice channels. Walmart makes 2 nice USB powered goose neck LED lights that fit in the sockets. I may need to make a retention device but unknown at this time if the devices will come loose during flight ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: USB Power Socket Ralph, The 12 volt power socket I suggest is not a cigar lighter and not intended for that use. It is a purpose built 12 volt power socket that is in a form factor similar to the old cigar lighter outlet but it is not the same thing. It is to be used to provide 12 volt power to devices such as the USB adaptors. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On Sep 16, 2012, at 7:47 AM, Ralph wrote: I used a USB socket designed for one of the card slots in a PC. It takes a small rectangular hole and two screw holes in the panel. This is powered by a 12vdc to 5 vdc switcher Mean Well from Mouser. Mine was for my I Pad which requires that you bias the data lines or the charger doesn't. Bob's solution using the cigar lighter socket and a plug in USB charger does simplify the problem. I don't particularly like Cigar lighter outlets as a power connector due to size, they are purpose built to heat a coil to light a cigar not as a GP power outlet but they work. If you use a plug in adaptor make sure that it's rated output is enough for the purpose. Ralph ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 17, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Why multiple skinny power wires?
At 04:53 PM 9/16/2012, you wrote: Those are multiple wires to multiple pins, not multiple wires to the SAME pin as in the original post from the SkyRadar installer. Yes, the original thread was discussing twin ground and twin power wires to a single function device. The 430 specifies a 10A CB on the com and a 5A CB for the Nav. I suppose they could have used one 15A circuit, but that would require larger wire that wouldn't fit in the connector pins. That makes sense. When you have lots of capability built into a single box, it should be expected that some features be powered separately from each other. In this case we might see multiple paralleled ground wires but multiple, independent power feeders. There is no common convention for these decisions. When in doubt, do what the manufacturer's instructions call out. The 430 does this with nav and comm functions. Not sure why you would ever want only one of functions but the option is there. Not so much for WANTING only one at a time but a deliberate isolation such that failure of one system doesn't pop the protection and take down multiple systems. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 17, 2012
From: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com>
Subject: Kitplanes Editorial Policy
On 9/16/2012 6:31 AM, Eric M. Jones wrote: > The attached was rewritten for Kitplanes, but they rejected it perfunctorily. My writing is intentionally a bit edgey--as any reader of this blog will tell you. Eric, Kitplanes published my stuff, and I'm edgy too! :-) Paul -- Please note my new email address! millner(at)me.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 17, 2012
From: RScott <rscott(at)cascadeaccess.com>
Subject: The biggest lie of Campaign 2012
We knew that idiot Obama's budget was bogus from the beginning, but it's even worse! The article doesn't get to the important stuff for several paragraphs. http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/the-biggest-lie-of-campaign-2012-169941296.html ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 17, 2012
From: John Grosse <grosseair(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: The biggest lie of Campaign 2012 TIME FOR THE
DELETE BUTTON -- AGAIN!! Why do you feel you have to pollute this list with off topic BS? John Grosse > RScott > September 17, 2012 4:31 PM > > > We knew that idiot Obama's budget was bogus from the beginning, but > it's even worse! The article doesn't get to the important stuff for > several paragraphs. > > http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/the-biggest-lie-of-campaign-2012-169941296.html > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Loram" <johnl(at)loram.org>
Subject: The biggest lie of Campaign 2012 TIME FOR THE
DELETE BUTTON -- AGAIN!!
Date: Sep 17, 2012
John: the spam appears to have been sent from 'Off List'. The aerolectric return address was bogus. The sender appears to have harvested the list addresses and is long gone. -john- > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On > Behalf Of John Grosse > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 2:51 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: The biggest lie of Campaign > 2012 TIME FOR THE DELETE BUTTON -- AGAIN!! > > --> > > Why do you feel you have to pollute this list with off topic BS? > > John Grosse > > RScott September 17, 2012 4:31 PM > > > > > > We knew that idiot Obama's budget was bogus from the beginning, but > > it's even worse! The article doesn't get to the important > stuff for > > several paragraphs. > > > > > http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/the-biggest-lie-of-campaign-2012-169941296 > > .html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Photoshare, and much much more: > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Blow or suck (on a heat sink)?
From: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Date: Sep 17, 2012
Hi group I decided I'm an idiot when it comes to refrigeration. I made a slick carry tote for a 12 volt 9 pound battery, with holder for the jumper cables and a super powerful flashlight. I will share pics once I complete the project. During the summer I ruined my 35MM digital camera by leaving it in a "very" hot car. I asked my EE build partner when we got the camera and he assured me, no problem, heat will not kill it. OK now to my question. I figured I would make an insulated compartment on my carry tote to put my camera in and use a piezo cooler to keep it at less than "nonpassive failure" temperature. My EE build partner gave me a Peltier made for a CPU chip. I fooled with it and was happy enough feeling the cold to install it. What a failure. I could easily "raise" the inside temperature by 15 degrees, and after a lot of fooling was able to get my cooler to only raise the temperature 2 degrees F over ambient. Going forward and using the mentality to never let a mechanical or electrical device get the better of you, I bought a do it yourself refrigeration kit off of E-Bay. BTW the compartment is now large enough for 2 soda cans or the new camera, and I figure for camera ops, I may be able to electrically series the two Peltier device inputs to lower the power drain (will try it and report). Side note I never knew that you can series stack Peltier devices together in series (hot to cold) to increase both heating and cooling. Sorry for the rambling, my question: I purchased this kit: http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180885684793&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:3160 No instructions. On the hot side heat sink, do I want to blow or suck with the fan? On the cold side heat sink, do I want to blow or suck with the fan? Thanking you in advance. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383343#383343 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: USB power
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Sep 17, 2012
John, please be aware that simply installing a USB receptacle and placing 5V across pins 1 and 4 will not charge an Apple iPad (or iPhone, or Samsung Galaxy Tab, and probably others) as you might expect. The USB standard only requires 500mA (one-half ampere) be available from a USB receptacle, and that's what you'll get from a computer's USB port and from many 110VAC and 12VDC USB adapters. That's sufficient for many phones, but smart-phones and tablets with large batteries require larger currents to charge properly. That's not the only problem. Both Apple and Samsung have ignored the USB standards to make proprietary charging schemes. Their devices look for voltages on the data pins, D- and D+, to indicate that the charger is able to supply their relatively high current demands. If your solution doesn't provide this, your tablet will assume it's plugged into a standard 500mA source. At best it will charge at a trickle, and may refuse to charge at all (Galaxy Tabs are famous for the "red X" indicating not charging). Apple's scheme uses three different variations of data pin voltages to designate three levels of charger current delivery capability: 500mA, 1,000mA and 2,000mA. iPhones require 1,000mA to quick-charge and iPads require 2,000mA. Also note that Apple products are notoriously fussy about charge voltage falling between 5V and 5.5V. Any less than 5V and they begin to ramp down their current draw, and therefore their charge rate. Many cheap USB adapters are very poorly regulated and will suffer voltage dropout as current demand rises. Furthermore, a switching regulator that's built to a price will likely omit properly selected filtering elements and may inject noise into other components sharing the same voltage source. For example, I have an iPhone car charger (made overseas; you can guess where) that makes my car's AM radio receiver unlistenable! So, a properly designed regulator with low voltage dropout, sufficient current overhead, and properly designed input and output filtering is important both for proper charging performance and to avoid noise in other aircraft systems. Having said all of that, it's not rocket science! Here's what your USB receptacle needs to provide to properly quick-charge your iPad (for iPhones, reverse pins 2 and 3): Pin 1 (+V): 5V (no less; ideally ~5.2V) Pin 2 (D-): 2.00V Pin 3 (D+): 2.75V Pin 4: Ground Assuming you start with a good supply, the data pin voltages are easy to accomplish with a resistor voltage divider. Small 1/8-watt resistors are perfectly adequate as there's negligible current flow from these two pins; they're just signaling voltages. See http://bit.ly/8JLUUe for a diagram of a resistor voltage divider and a calculator to figure resistor values. Try to keep R1 at 10000 ohms or more, as this will ensure very little current flow to ground. Cheers, Eric P.S. I hope I'm safe mentioning this here, since I have nothing yet to sell, but I hope to bring what I think will be an elegant solution to this problem to market in the near future. Initial design has a panel-mounted single or dual-USB receptacle that occupies ~1 sq in of panel space and less than 2 in of depth, with a very small and light remote-mounted voltage source capable of simultaneously fast-charging two tablets or a tablet and a smart-phone. If you're interested, send me an email at VersoElectronics(at)cox(dot)net and I'll get in touch only if/when I finalize the design. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Blow or suck (on a heat sink)?
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Sep 17, 2012
Ron, See: http://www.target.com/p/wagan-thermo-fridge-warmer-6-l/-/A-10577497 So cheap you can't afford to make one. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383369#383369 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R. curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Blow or suck (on a heat sink)?
Date: Sep 17, 2012
> No instructions. On the hot side heat sink, do I want to blow or suck with > the fan? On the cold side heat sink, do I want to blow or suck with the > fan? > Ron Parigoris It is almost always better to "Suck than to blow". For either a heating or cooling application. If you are directing a fan to blow on a heat sink, a larger quantity at a higher velocity makes contact with the sink and more of the heat is transferred. On the "Suck" side of the fan the air moves in from a wider area and is not as effective unless you specifically design a shroud to direct the airflow across the sink. Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 17, 2012
From: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: Blow or suck (on a heat sink)?
Your description is fine, but the first sentence is opposite of the description. I think you meant to write "better to blow than suck" Dick Tasker R. curtis wrote: > >> No instructions. On the hot side heat sink, do I want to blow or suck with the fan? On the cold side heat sink, do I want to blow or suck with the fan? >> Ron Parigoris > > It is almost always better to "Suck than to blow". For either a heating or cooling application. If you are directing a fan to blow on a heat sink, a larger quantity at a higher velocity makes > contact with the sink and more of the heat is transferred. On the "Suck" side of the fan the air moves in from a wider area and is not as effective unless you specifically design a shroud to direct > the airflow across the sink. > > Roger > > -- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 17, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Blow or suck (on a heat sink)?
At 05:27 PM 9/17/2012, you wrote: > > >Hi group > >I decided I'm an idiot when it comes to refrigeration. > >I made a slick carry tote for a 12 volt 9 pound battery, with holder >for the jumper cables and a super powerful flashlight. I will share >pics once I complete the project. > >During the summer I ruined my 35MM digital camera by leaving it in a >"very" hot car. I asked my EE build partner when we got the camera >and he assured me, no problem, heat will not kill it. > >OK now to my question. I figured I would make an insulated >compartment on my carry tote to put my camera in and use a piezo >cooler to keep it at less than "nonpassive failure" temperature. My >EE build partner gave me a Peltier made for a CPU chip. I fooled >with it and was happy enough feeling the cold to install it. What a >failure. I could easily "raise" the inside temperature by 15 >degrees, and after a lot of fooling was able to get my cooler to >only raise the temperature 2 degrees F over ambient. > >Going forward and using the mentality to never let a mechanical or >electrical device get the better of you, I bought a do it yourself >refrigeration kit off of E-Bay. BTW the compartment is now large >enough for 2 soda cans or the new camera, and I figure for camera >ops, I may be able to electrically series the two Peltier device >inputs to lower the power drain (will try it and report). Side note >I never knew that you can series stack Peltier devices together in >series (hot to cold) to increase both heating and cooling. > >Sorry for the rambling, my question: >I purchased this kit: >http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180885684793&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:3160 > >No instructions. On the hot side heat sink, do I want to blow or >suck with the fan? On the cold side heat sink, do I want to blow or >suck with the fan? Doesn't matter . . . it's MOVEMENT of air over the warmer/cooler surface that greatly improves the rate of transfer for thermal energy. Suggest you review the technical data for TEC parts at: http://tinyurl.com/9fcv9l4 Particularly the instructions and tutorials. You might wish to consider some form of temperature control for the protected space. It may be that the best choice for protecting the camera will not secure a pleasantly cooled can of pop. If you keep the camera too cold (below dew point for surrounding atmosphere) there is risk of condensing moisture on the camera's inner workings when brought out into the warmer, moist air. Also, these critters are sorta cool but they consume significant amounts of energy. Do a load analysis after satisfactory protection is achieved . . . then see how long you can let your vehicle battery support his load and still get the engine started. This will put DEEP cycles on the vehicle battery and reduce its service life considerably. Passive protection might be more practical. Store the camera in one of those zippered-lid insulated carry cases (about a six pack size) along with those reusable ice bags (not frozen). You're taking advantage of the container insulation and relative thermal mass of the freezing medium to maintain the camera at day-long-average temperature which will be many degrees cooler than worst case. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 17, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: USB power
At 07:31 PM 9/17/2012, you wrote: > >John, please be aware that simply installing a USB receptacle and >placing 5V across pins 1 and 4 will not charge an Apple iPad (or >iPhone, or Samsung Galaxy Tab, and probably others) as you might expect. > >The USB standard only requires 500mA (one-half ampere) be available >from a USB receptacle, and that's what you'll get from a computer's >USB port and from many 110VAC and 12VDC USB adapters. That's >sufficient for many phones, but smart-phones and tablets with large >batteries require larger currents to charge properly. > >That's not the only problem. Both Apple and Samsung have ignored >the USB standards to make proprietary charging schemes. Their >devices look for voltages on the data pins, D- and D+, to indicate >that the charger is able to supply their relatively high current >demands. If your solution doesn't provide this, your tablet will >assume it's plugged into a standard 500mA source. At best it will >charge at a trickle, and may refuse to charge at all (Galaxy Tabs >are famous for the "red X" indicating not charging). > >Apple's scheme uses three different variations of data pin voltages >to designate three levels of charger current delivery capability: >500mA, 1,000mA and 2,000mA. iPhones require 1,000mA to quick-charge >and iPads require 2,000mA. > >Also note that Apple products are notoriously fussy about charge >voltage falling between 5V and 5.5V. Any less than 5V and they >begin to ramp down their current draw, and therefore their charge >rate. Many cheap USB adapters are very poorly regulated and will >suffer voltage dropout as current demand rises. Furthermore, a >switching regulator that's built to a price will likely omit >properly selected filtering elements and may inject noise into other >components sharing the same voltage source. For example, I have an >iPhone car charger (made overseas; you can guess where) that makes >my car's AM radio receiver unlistenable! > >So, a properly designed regulator with low voltage dropout, >sufficient current overhead, and properly designed input and output >filtering is important both for proper charging performance and to >avoid noise in other aircraft systems. > >Having said all of that, it's not rocket science! Here's what your >USB receptacle needs to provide to properly quick-charge your iPad >(for iPhones, reverse pins 2 and 3): > >Pin 1 (+V): 5V (no less; ideally ~5.2V) >Pin 2 (D-): 2.00V >Pin 3 (D+): 2.75V >Pin 4: Ground > >Assuming you start with a good supply, the data pin voltages are >easy to accomplish with a resistor voltage divider. Small 1/8-watt >resistors are perfectly adequate as there's negligible current flow >from these two pins; they're just signaling voltages. See >http://bit.ly/8JLUUe for a diagram of a resistor voltage divider and >a calculator to figure resistor values. Try to keep R1 at 10000 >ohms or more, as this will ensure very little current flow to ground. > >Cheers, Eric > >P.S. I hope I'm safe mentioning this here, since I have nothing yet >to sell, but I hope to bring what I think will be an elegant >solution to this problem to market in the near future. Initial >design has a panel-mounted single or dual-USB receptacle that >occupies ~1 sq in of panel space and less than 2 in of depth, with a >very small and light remote-mounted voltage source capable of >simultaneously fast-charging two tablets or a tablet and a >smart-phone. If you're interested, send me an email at >VersoElectronics(at)cox(dot)net and I'll get in touch only if/when >I finalize the design. Good and useful data Eric. Thanks! Your product sounds like it would have some appeal to OBAM aircraft owners so advertising availability here on the List is welcome also. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 18, 2012
Subject: Pinouts for Skyview CM/CMT2000
From: Bill Allen <billallensworld(at)gmail.com>
Hi guys, Can anyone help me find the pinouts for a Skyview CM/CT2000? (model No: RL0322) please? thanks, Bill Allen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au>
Subject: Re: Pinouts for Skyview CM/CMT2000
Date: Sep 18, 2012
Hi Bill, perhaps you mean a Skyforce CT/CM2000? I have a Skyview system, but havent heard of those boxes before now! Kind regards, Stu Sent from my iPhone On 18/09/2012, at 21:26, Bill Allen wrote: > Hi guys, > > Can anyone help me find the pinouts for a Skyview CM/CT2000? (model No: RL 0322) please? > > thanks, > > Bill Allen > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "earl_schroeder(at)juno.com" <earl_schroeder(at)juno.com>
Date: Sep 18, 2012
Subject: 5 Volt power supply source
This 5 Volt power supply might be a good value: http://www.mpja.com/09-18-12.asp?r=278940&s=14 I have purchased various items from them over the years and would suggest their consideration. (no affiliation just a satisfied user) Earl ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 18, 2012
Subject: Re: Pinouts for Skyview CM/CMT2000
From: Bill Allen <billallensworld(at)gmail.com>
As Stuart correctly points out, I did mean to enquire about the Skyforce pinouts.... forgive the dyslexia - I'm also working on a Skyview system......to many skys..... Bill On 18 September 2012 13:40, Stuart Hutchison wrote: > Hi Bill, perhaps you mean a Skyforce CT/CM2000? I have a Skyview system, > but havent heard of those boxes before now! > > Kind regards, Stu > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 18/09/2012, at 21:26, Bill Allen wrote: > > Hi guys, > > Can anyone help me find the pinouts for a Skyview CM/CT2000? (model No: > RL0322) please? > > thanks, > > Bill Allen > > * > > * > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Military style external power receptacle question
From: "plevyakh" <hplevyak(at)mac.com>
Date: Sep 18, 2012
Guys, What size wire should be used for the feed from the smaller third pin of the military style power receptacle to the (+) OVM sensing connection post? Since mine is in the engine side, I was going to use 18AWG. Is this acceptable? Thanks, Howard On May 24, 2009, at 4:15 PM, johngoodman wrote: Looking at Bob's wiring diagram in Appendix Z, 31A, for a military style external power receptacle, what is the function of the smaller third pin? Just guessing by the schematic it's hot power, just like the middle pin. Inquiring minds want to know........ John -------- #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit started. N711JG reserved It's a sense pin and it is hot, the same as the center pin. Without the plug, it is not connected to the center pin. It can be used as the drawing shows, to separate the source of power activating the contactor from what is flowing through the contactor. This allows you a way to take action on this pin going hot. In the case of Z31A, that drawing shows polarity and overvoltage sensing being done from that pin." Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 45177#245177 -------- Howard Plevyak GlaStar / North Bend, Ohio hplevyak(at)mac.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383426#383426 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: USB Power
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Sep 18, 2012
Bob Nuckolls wrote: > Your product sounds like it would have some appeal to OBAM aircraft owners so advertising availability here on the List is welcome also. > > Bob . . . Thanks, Bob. I almost didn't mention it at all; too many of these forums get polluted with either excessive commercial messages of off-topic garbage. I promise not to make my shilling a nuisance! Eric ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 18, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: USB Power
>Thanks, Bob. I almost didn't mention it at all; too many of these >forums get polluted with either excessive commercial messages of >off-topic garbage. I promise not to make my shilling a nuisance! No worries. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 18, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Military style external power receptacle
question At 11:12 AM 9/18/2012, you wrote: > >Guys, >What size wire should be used for the feed from the smaller third >pin of the military style power receptacle to the (+) OVM sensing >connection post? Since mine is in the engine side, I was going to >use 18AWG. Is this acceptable? 22AWG fine for the current but you can go bigger for mechanical robustness. Some OEMs don't run anything smaller than 20AWG in engine compartments and/or wheelwells. 18AWG is fine too. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Military style external power receptacle question
From: "plevyakh" <hplevyak(at)mac.com>
Date: Sep 18, 2012
Thanks Bob! -------- Howard Plevyak GlaStar / North Bend, Ohio hplevyak(at)mac.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383450#383450 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel Pressure Sensor search
From: "eschlanser" <eschlanser(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Sep 18, 2012
Those are higher pressure (7.5 psi) sensors than john asked for. Working with a cabin tank and gravity fed fuel line here (no fuel pump). How would it be plumbed and wired into a gravity fed fuel line from a cabin tank mounted between the instrument panel and the firewall, with the fuel line routed from the bottom of the tank going forward to the firewall mounted gascolator, and finally to the carburetor? What gauge would work with it? Thanks, Eric Schlanser [quote="retasker(at)optonline.net"]Interesting. The first is one made by my company. Dick Tasker Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: [quote] At 06:38 PM 9/14/2012, you wrote: > > > Searching for a low pressure 7.5psi (0.5 bar) fuel (avgas) pressure sensor. > Can be either two or three terminal. > > thanks for leads (brands or unused items), -john- Finding such a critter with a full scale range that small is problematic . . . especially one with all metal pressure-side materials that would be okay with gasoline. Suggest you look at something like this http://tinyurl.com/9uw647y http://tinyurl.com/8unuxge http://tinyurl.com/983v7o7 http://tinyurl.com/99xfyrs This is a small sample of possibilities. They're all aerospace grade devices at very reasonable prices compared to off the shelf new. Even as used devices, transducers of this genre' are likely to be a better value than automotive devices. Bob . . . Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383454#383454 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: CbOV-14 Crowbar OV Module - extra part? = MBS4991
From: "plevyakh" <hplevyak(at)mac.com>
Date: Sep 18, 2012
Bob, I bought a CbOV-14 Crowbar OV Protection module from you awhile back. In the plastic packet is the module, along with a small transistor MBS4991 separate from the module itself. Is this a spare in the event that transistor needs replacement at some time in the future? Should I just put this in my long term maintenance box of parts? I just wanted to be sure I wasn't supposed to install it as well. I'm using the CbOV-14 module for my Ground Power Jack per your article "Low Cost Ground Power Jack for your airplane." Thanks, Howard -------- Howard Plevyak GlaStar / North Bend, Ohio hplevyak(at)mac.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383456#383456 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Crowbar
From: "plevyakh" <hplevyak(at)mac.com>
Date: Sep 18, 2012
Guys, I'm installing the CbOVM-14 OV Protection module and wanted to confirm if it's ok to install this on the engine side of the firewall (HOT), or should I put it on the Instrument Panel side (COOL). It would be a little easier with wiring to zip tie it onto my Ground Power contactor terminal wires on the engine side, but I didn't want to do this if over the airplane life I'd eventually fry the thing. Sounds like either side I choose, the installation mount method is to just tie wrap it to some wires. If others have a better idea, I'd appreciate the tips. TIA for your comments and help! Howard -------- Howard Plevyak GlaStar / North Bend, Ohio hplevyak(at)mac.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383458#383458 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 18, 2012
From: Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Pressure Sensor search
If it is just gravity fed, what is the point of a pressure sensor? If you are planning to use it as a fuel gauge, that would be not so easy. The majority of the gravity fed head is from the bottom of the fuel tank in the wings to the point of use. The head pressure in the wing from full to empty is a small fraction of that. So you would need a sensor that can withstand avgas (or autogas if that is what you are using) that could measure only a few inches of water (fractions of a psi). Possible, but not so easy. Dick Tasker P.S. We (www.astsensors.com) do make sensors that will measure down to 5 inH2O but the cost is not particularly appealing for this type of use. eschlanser wrote: > > Those are higher pressure (7.5 psi) sensors than john asked for. > > Working with a cabin tank and gravity fed fuel line here (no fuel pump). > > How would it be plumbed and wired into a gravity fed fuel line from a cabin tank mounted between the instrument panel and the firewall, with the fuel line routed from the bottom of the tank going forward to the firewall mounted gascolator, and finally to the carburetor? > > What gauge would work with it? > > Thanks, > Eric Schlanser > > [quote="retasker(at)optonline.net"]Interesting. The first is one made by my company. > > Dick Tasker > > Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > [quote] > > At 06:38 PM 9/14/2012, you wrote: >> >> Searching for a low pressure 7.5psi (0.5 bar) fuel (avgas) pressure sensor. >> Can be either two or three terminal. >> >> thanks for leads (brands or unused items), -john- > Finding such a critter with a full scale > range that small is problematic . . . especially > one with all metal pressure-side materials > that would be okay with gasoline. > > Suggest you look at something like this > > http://tinyurl.com/9uw647y > http://tinyurl.com/8unuxge > http://tinyurl.com/983v7o7 > http://tinyurl.com/99xfyrs > > This is a small sample of possibilities. > They're all aerospace grade devices at > very reasonable prices compared to off the > shelf new. Even as used devices, transducers > of this genre' are likely to be a better > value than automotive devices. > > > Bob . . . > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383454#383454 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel Pressure Sensor search
From: "eschlanser" <eschlanser(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Sep 18, 2012
I was thinking fuel flow, not fuel level. I suspect it's not appropriate for that use. Nevermind. thanks, Eric Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383469#383469 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 18, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: CbOV-14 Crowbar OV Module - extra part? = MBS4991
At 03:53 PM 9/18/2012, you wrote: Bob, I bought a CbOV-14 Crowbar OV Protection module from you awhile back. In the plastic packet is the module, along with a small transistor MBS4991 separate from the module itself. Is this a spare in the event that transistor needs replacement at some time in the future? Should I just put this in my long term maintenance box of parts? That's a stray . . . stash it. I just wanted to be sure I wasn't supposed to install it as well. I'm using the CbOV-14 module for my Ground Power Jack per your article "Low Cost Ground Power Jack for your airplane." I'm mystified as to how it managed the great escape but there you go! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 18, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Crowbar
At 04:08 PM 9/18/2012, you wrote: Guys, I'm installing the CbOVM-14 OV Protection module and wanted to confirm if it's ok to install this on the engine side of the firewall (HOT), or should I put it on the Instrument Panel side (COOL). It would be a little easier with wiring to zip tie it onto my Ground Power contactor terminal wires on the engine side, but I didn't want to do this if over the airplane life I'd eventually fry the thing. it won't be damaged . . . but htey do have a temperature coefficient of voltage greater than I would like. Sounds like either side I choose, the installation mount method is to just tie wrap it to some wires. If others have a better idea, I'd appreciate the tips. That will work . . . and it would be best to install it in the cockpit. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 2012
Subject: Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
From: Nati Niv <n992dn(at)gmail.com>
Bob Couple of days ago Ii sent you a diagram of a design that should work. I understand from your silence that you are shocked from the complex and convoluted design J..... Since then I cleaned the diagram and came up with simplified design (only three relays, two of them are small, light duty ones) Let me know if you are interested Nati On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Nati Niv wrote: > Bob > > > Here is something that will work for you: from any to any (position), wit h > limit switches and based on electromechanical (relays 7 of them they can > be very small) and 11 diodes, more complex but it will work > . > > For that to work properly you will need to modify the mechanical design i n > a way that only one micro switch is make at a time, you will also have > different LED indication compared to your design: only one LED will be li t > at a time indicating current flap position. > > > Have fun > > Nati > On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Nati Niv wrote: > >> Bob >> >> >> >> Now, that I understand the mechanical design I have a solution including >> to the =93moving from any position to any position up/down=94 can you se nd me >> the diagram in a format other than PDF and I will returned it corrected? >> Now that I understand I really the simplicity of it. >> >> >> >> Nati >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Robert Reed wrote : >> >>> Nati, >>> >>> Sorry, I only showed the electrical and did not explain the mechanics o f >>> the operation. >>> >>> The micro-switches will be located in a channel with the ability to mov e >>> them to adjust the positions. A slide bar will be attached to the trim >>> control arm. The slide bar will close each switch in line during the >>> retract operation and open each in line during the extend. During the >>> retract operation only the retract circuit will be powered by the rotar y >>> switch with the intent of full retraction and not stepped retraction. >>> During extension, only one circuit can be active at any time and that >>> circuit will close as soon as the slide bar passes the switch allowing it >>> to open. The indicator lights will only light when the desired circuit is >>> active and the switch is open. It should allow for either stepped flap >>> extension or full extension with one operation. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Nati Niv >>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >>> *Sent:* Fri, September 14, 2012 10:14:26 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work ? >>> >>> Rob >>> >>> >>> >>> It will not work. >>> >>> I understand the KIS approach that leads you to use relays/micro >>> switches only. Unfortunately designing such thing will require some lev el >>> of electronic involves and the reason for it is that you need to know * at >>> all times* what the position of the flaps is because you need to tell >>> the motor to which direction to go, up/down. Using micro switch as a >>> location sensing lacks this capability, it =93senses=94 at only one pos ition, >>> the position to which you set it mechanically along the motor travel. T he >>> moment the motor moves from that position you have no indication of whe re >>> you are. The most common sense to use as sensing device would be a >>> potentiometer, and then you need some electronics to sense and compare >>> (comparators). I would even think basing the design on the LM3914 10 LE D >>> driver. >>> >>> When it was time for me to change the flap system on my RANS 6 from >>> manual to electric I thought, as an electronic fan about deferent desig ns >>> but eventually find myself using this: >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.e-motionllc.com/Feedback_actuator_p/fa-po-150-12-2.htm >>> >>> >>> >>> As the actuator (it has built in potentiometer) >>> >>> >>> >>> And this as a controller. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/electronicsflapcontroller .php >>> >>> >>> >>> A little pricy, I know but works, I love every second flying the 6 with >>> this arrangement >>> >>> >>> >>> Nati >>> >>> RANS 6 >>> >>> Illinois >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Robert Reed wrote : >>> >>>> All, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 positio n >>>> switch to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position >>>> settings. The rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a >>>> tactile feel indicating position but will point to the LED. I believe this >>>> setup will work but would like some review. I have also included abso lute >>>> limit switched to ensure that an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Bob Reed >>>> >>> >>> * >>> >>> om/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://w ww.mhref="http://forums.matronics.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>ht tp:/========= >>> * >>> >>> * >>> =========== =========== =========== =========== >>> * >>> >>> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 2012
Subject: elt batteries
From: bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
starting on my first annual. do i remember correctly........the d batteries in the elt must be changed every year? thanks bob noffs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R. curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: elt batteries
Date: Sep 19, 2012
starting on my first annual. do i remember correctly........the d batteries in the elt must be changed every year? thanks bob noffs Normally the manufacturer specifies that you use date coded alkaline batteries, and they are to be changed before the end of the coded period. They do not have to be changed each year. Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 2012
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: elt batteries
My old ELT (10 years old) required new batteries every 24 months. My new ACK 406Mh ELT specifies 5 years for the lithium batteries. Bill On 9/19/2012 7:47 AM, R. curtis wrote: > > starting on my first annual. > do i remember correctly........the d batteries in the elt must be > changed every year? > thanks bob noffs > ** > Normally the manufacturer specifies that you use date coded > alkaline batteries, and they are to be changed before the end of > the coded period. They do not have to be changed each year. > Roger > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel Pressure Sensor search
From: "user9253" <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>
Date: Sep 19, 2012
I think a fuel tank pressure transducer or switch would be a nice to have to warn about a plugged vent. Some accidents have happened because the fuel tank vent was plugged. Is there an inexpensive and easy way to monitor fuel tank pressure? Perhaps an automotive fuel tank pressure sensor would work. I even thought about mounting a microswitch against the outside of the tank, if tank geometry and accessibility allowed. The switch would operate if the tank skin was forced inward by atmospheric pressure. A low pressure warning might prevent a forced landing. Of course a thorough pre-flight inspection of the fuel vent is easier than installing more instrumentation. Some of us forget or are in a hurry. Just thinking out loud. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=383505#383505 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: The biggest lie of Campaign 2012
At 04:31 PM 9/17/2012, you wrote: > >We knew that idiot Obama's budget was bogus from the beginning, but >it's even worse! The article doesn't get to the important stuff for >several paragraphs. > >http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/the-biggest-lie-of-campaign-2012-169941296.html is not presently subscribed to any lists on Matronics. The posting of the original message was to a number of 'undisclosed recipients' on R Scott's Bcc file. More likely than not, the AeroElectric-List was accidently included in that file. The very BEST thing to do with/about such events is delete and ignore. It serves little purpose to chastise the accidental poster and even less purpose to hammer zealots for any cause. Just cruise thought a few 'flame wars' being conducted on UseNet and grieve for the waste of what might otherwise be productive time. Off topic postings should be afforded an expenditure of $time$ commensurate with the value you derive from the posting. If it's zero . . . then send it off to the trash and get on with more important business. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Wildman" <dick(at)minetfiber.com>
Subject: Re: The biggest lie of Campaign 2012
Date: Sep 19, 2012
Bob; You wisdom is refreshing. Dick Wildman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 7:56 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: The biggest lie of Campaign 2012 > > > At 04:31 PM 9/17/2012, you wrote: >> >>We knew that idiot Obama's budget was bogus from the beginning, but it's >>even worse! The article doesn't get to the important stuff for several >>paragraphs. >> >>http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/the-biggest-lie-of-campaign-2012-169941296.html > > > is not presently subscribed to > any lists on Matronics. The posting of the original message > was to a number of 'undisclosed recipients' on R Scott's Bcc > file. More likely than not, the AeroElectric-List was accidently > included in that file. > > The very BEST thing to do with/about such events is delete and > ignore. It serves little purpose to chastise the accidental poster > and even less purpose to hammer zealots for any cause. Just > cruise thought a few 'flame wars' being conducted on UseNet and > grieve for the waste of what might otherwise be productive time. > > Off topic postings should be afforded an expenditure of $time$ > commensurate with the value you derive from the posting. If it's > zero . . . then send it off to the trash and get on with more > important business. > > > Bob . . . > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ralph Finch <ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 19, 2012
Subject: Re: how can non-subscribers post?
I thought non-subscribers were not allowed to post to any lists on Matronics? Ralph Finch On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 7:56 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com**> > > > is not presently subscribed to > any lists on Matronics. The posting of the original message > was to a number of 'undisclosed recipients' on R Scott's Bcc > file. More likely than not, the AeroElectric-List was accidently > included in that file. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
At 12:28 AM 9/19/2012, you wrote: >Bob > >Couple of days ago Ii sent you a diagram of a design that should >work. I understand from your silence that you are shocked from the >complex and convoluted design J..... Since then I cleaned the >diagram and came up with simplified design (only three relays, two >of them are small, light duty ones) > >Let me know if you are interested Not sure about what you are asking of me. I've followed the thread of discussion. You were getting the attention of several folk skilled in the deduction of functionality and dissection for potential failure. I've generally counseled caution and considered restraint when it come to attaching motors to flight controls. We used a LOT of such motors on the heavy iron birds and for 99.99% of the time, the designs were golden for convenience to the pilot and reduction of risk. A flap lowered by pulling up a handle on the floor is generally free of risk for un-commanded motion. Although I think I recall reading of an incident where the worn ratchet mechanism on a Johnson bar flap handle failed and produced an un-commanded retraction. I spend a lot of my boss's money tracking down root cause for a series of runaway roll trim incidents on . . . on a design that was 35 years old and rose out of a combination of production changes over decades. That was an interesting study in the laws of unintended and unforeseen consequences and had a really surprising outcome. I'll see if I can dig up reports I did on that study and share them. My first question for evaluating any proposed 'convenience' is cost of ownership and assessment of added risk. Is this device going to improve the manner in which the airplane can be operated? What are the trade-offs for adding complexity to the system in exchange for convenience and adding risk for un-commanded motion? Please understand that not for on minute do I suggest that discussions around your proposal have no value. They are of great value whether or not the system is ultimately installed on an airplane. Any exercise in crafting and meeting design goals validated by a satisfactory assessment for cost of ownership and risk is exactly what we got paid for on the TC side of the house. Not EVERY idea ran the gauntlet of well considered critical review and found its way onto an airplane . . . in fact, MOST did not. But those ideas that did make it production were the collective best-we-knew-how-to-do and the study of EVERY idea was a learning experience. If your question concerns my assessment of function, benefit and risk, I'll have to study the latest iteration of your idea. I'm not sure which drawing is the latest. Can you re-post it? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 2012
From: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?
Nati,=0A=0AI looked at your diagram and was adimttedly very confused by it. =C2- It seemed to =0Alose much of the desired KISS goal that I was trying to achieve but I didn't =0Ahave the time to give it the attention it deser ved.=C2- In subsequent discussions =0Awith a friend who has a plane like the one I am building the subject has turned =0Ato an even simpler design t hat didn't rely on step switches at all but simply =0Aused them for indicat or lights.=C2- Several people I have talked with preferred =0Aonly the ab solute limit switches with a momentary switch for up and down only.=C2- =0AThey were recommending putting the switch on the stick so that it could be more =0Aeasily activated without having to reach for a console switch. =C2- That has certain =0Aappeal but I have always found the switched on t he controls to be somewhat =0Aunreliable and tried to stay away from them. =C2- =0A=0A=0AI am still considering all alternatives and would be intere sted in seeing what =0Ayou worked up though.=0A=0ABob Reed=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A__ ______________________________=0AFrom: Nati Niv <n992dn(at)gmail.com>=0ATo: ae roelectric-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Wed, September 19, 2012 12:30:03 AM =0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work? =0A=0A=0ABob=0A=C2-=0ACouple of days ago Ii sent you a diagram of a desig n that should work. I =0Aunderstand from your silence that you are shocked from the complex and =0Aconvoluted design J..... Since then I cleaned the d iagram and came up with =0Asimplified design (only three relays, two of the m are small, light duty ones)=0A=C2-=0ALet me know if you are interested =0A=C2-=0ANati=0AOn Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Nati Niv wrote:=0A=0ABob=0A>=C2-=0A>Here is something that will work for you : from any to any (position), with limit =0A>switches and based on electrom echanical (relays =C2-7=C2-of them they=C2-can be very =0A>small) and 11 diodes, more complex but it will work=0A>.=0A>For that to work properly you will need to modify the mechanical design in a way =0A>that only one m icro switch is make at a time, you will also have different LED =0A>indicat ion compared to your design: only one LED will be lit at a time =0A>indicat ing current flap position.=0A>=C2-=0A>Have funNati=0A>On Sat, Sep 15, 201 2 at 11:41 AM, Nati Niv wrote:=0A>=0A>Bob=0A>>=C2-=0A> >Now, that I understand the mechanical design I have a solution including t o the =0A>>=9Cmoving from any position to any position up/down =9D can you send me the diagram =0A>>in a format other than PDF and I will returned it corrected? Now that I =0A>>understand I really the simplicity o f it.=C2-=0A>>Nati=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:39 AM, R obert Reed wrote:=0A>>=0A>>Nati,=0A>>>=0A>>>Sorry, I o nly showed the electrical and did not explain the mechanics of the =0A>>>op eration.=C2- =0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>The micro-switches will be located in a ch annel with the ability to move them to =0A>>>adjust the positions.=C2- A slide bar will be attached to the trim control arm.=C2- =0A>>>The slide b ar will close each switch in line during the retract operation and =0A>>>op en each in line during the extend.=C2- During the retract operation only the =0A>>>retract circuit will be powered by the rotary switch with the int ent of full =0A>>>retraction and not stepped retraction.=C2- During exten sion, only one circuit can =0A>>>be active at any time and that circuit wil l close as soon as the slide bar =0A>>>passes the switch allowing it to ope n.=C2- The indicator lights will only light =0A>>>when the desired circui t is active and the switch is open.=C2- It should allow for =0A>>>either stepped flap extension or full extension with one operation.=0A>>>=0A>>>Bob =0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=C2-=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A______________________________ __=0AFrom: Nati Niv <n992dn(at)gmail.com>=0A>>>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics .com=0A>>>Sent: Fri, September 14, 2012 10:14:26 PM=0A>>>Subject: Re: AeroE lectric-List: Flap Control Schematic - will it work?=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>> >Rob=0A>>>=C2-=0A>>>It will not work.=0A>>>I understand the KIS approach that leads you to use relays/micro switches only. =0A>>>Unfortunately desig ning such thing will require some level of electronic =0A>>>involves and th e reason for it is that you need to know at all times what the =0A>>>positi on of the flaps is because you need to tell the motor to which direction =0A>>>to go, up/down. Using micro switch as a location sensing lacks this c apability, =0A>>>it =9Csenses=9D at only one position, the posi tion to which you set it mechanically =0A>>>along the motor travel. The mom ent the motor moves from that position you have =0A>>>no indication of wher e you are. The most common sense to use as sensing device =0A>>>would be a potentiometer, and then you need some electronics to sense and =0A>>>compar e (comparators). I would even think basing the design on the LM3914 10 LED =0A>>>driver. =0A>>>=0A>>>When it was time for me to change the flap system on my RANS 6 from manual to =0A>>>electric I thought, as an electronic fan about deferent designs but eventually =0A>>>find myself using this:=0A>>> =C2-=0A>>>http://www.e-motionllc.com/Feedback_actuator_p/fa-po-150-12-2.h tm=0A>>>=C2-=0A>>>As the actuator (it has built in potentiometer) =0A>>> =C2-=0A>>>And this as a controller.=0A>>>=C2-=0A>>>http://www.aircrafts pruce.com/catalog/elpages/electronicsflapcontroller.php=0A>>>=C2-=0A>>>A little pricy, I know but works, I love every second flying the 6 with this =0A>>>arrangement=0A>>>=C2-=0A>>>Nati=0A>>>RANS 6=0A>>>Illinois =C2-=C2 -=0A>>>=C2-=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Robert Re ed wrote:=0A>>>=0A>>>All,=0A>>>>=C2-=0A>>>>Attached is my plan for a flap control system using a Rotary 4 position switch =0A>> >>to control the flaps with LED indicators to show the position settings. =C2- The =0A>>>>rotary switch will have a lever that not only gives a tac tile feel indicating =0A>>>>position but will point to the LED.=C2- I bel ieve this setup will work but would =0A>>>>like some review.=C2- I have a lso included absolute limit switched to ensure that =0A>>>>an over-run will not occur due to a bad relay.=0A>>>>=C2-=0A>>>>Bob Reed=0A>>>=0A>>> om/ Navigator?AeroElectric-List" rel=nofollow =0A>>>target=_blank>http://ww w.mhref="http://forums.matronics.com/" rel=nofollow =0A>>>target=_bla nk>http:/========== =0A>>>=0A>>> ist" target="_blan k">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List =0A>>>ttp://forums. matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A>>>=0A>>=0A =================== =0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 2012
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: The biggest lie of Campaign 2012
I'd like to request a "One strike, You're out" policy from now until mid-November. Specifically, one political posting to the Aeroelectric list gets you banned from the list at least until after the elections. First, we are immersed in a sea of 'noise' from all directions on a host of venues. Just driving down the street . . . how many objects within view are demanding not only your attention . . . but hoping for some response that is beneficial to their cause? I cannot recall the last time that any invasive advertiser's efforts induced me to part with my cash in exchange for their intrusion into my head. Such advertisers DEPEND on human frailties that preclude picking out the good stuff from the noise. I'll even volunteer my $time$ to play moderator to help keep on top of these offenders, and I bet several other people would also be willing to help. Frankly, I'm getting so sick and tired of going through this several times per year that it is worth it for me to spend the $time$ to help


August 27, 2012 - September 19, 2012

AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-lh