AeroElectric-List Archive Browser

AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-lq
March 08, 2013 - March 26, 2013

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________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 2013
From: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net>
Subject: Re: ELT antenna inside tube and fabric fuselage
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: ATC slo blo?
> >My original question came up as I was told (and I believed) that the P-mags >should have a breaker/switch and not fuse/switch. The circuit protection philosophy and the means by the circuit is controlled are separate issues. The Emagair drawing suggests they might be combined but it's one of many options. The only utility for the switch is to be able to test internal power for the emag . . . which means seeing if the engine will run from a single mag that has been deprived of battery power. This suggests that the power path be controllable. Obviously, one can kill the bus by simply turning the battery switch off. So doing a periodic test of internal power for the Emags is no big deal if one chooses to leave the suggested switches out. As a separate consideration, protecting any wire that's tied to a high fault current source (alternator/battery fed busses) is worthy of protection. Breakers or fuses of several types may be considered in the development personal design goals. >With the very small >current flows according to Bob M, (the Emagair spec sheet does not indicate >current flow), Note 4 of the image I purloined from the Emagair website states a 20 mA idle current and 0.25A max running current. > and no unusually high inrush currents, fuses should be fine >as long as I also have switches to power down the mags. What is your perception of need to "power down" the mags by any means other than simply turning the 'mag switch' to off? Note 2 of the same image states that the DC supply is switched only for the purposes of testing internal power feature on p-mags. Just how that power is removed is open to the spirit and intent of design goals. Given the inherent reliability of the internal sources combined with the fact that each source is but one of four sources, any one of which will fly the airplane, the need for counting all your marbles before each flight is unnecessary. It follows that adding more switches on the panel for the convenience of conducting a periodic test only drives up parts count and relative panel clutter. >On the other hand, my WigWag module (by Sound Off Signal) is solid state and >does require a fast acting fuse to protect the controller portion, but >that's a story for another day. Fuses to protect hardware? Can you direct me to the citation? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: ATC slo blo?
Date: Mar 08, 2013
Thanks Bob, Fuses to protect hardware? Can you direct me to the citation? See the paragraph titled "WARNING". http://sos-production.s3.amazonaws.com/images/ETHDSS-SP%20Fold%20A.pdf It calls for fast a acting fuse, not a fusible link, slow blow or circuit breaker. Bevan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: ATC slo blo?
At 12:01 PM 3/8/2013, you wrote: > > >Thanks Bob, > > Fuses to protect hardware? Can you direct me to the > citation? > >See the paragraph titled "WARNING". > >http://sos-production.s3.amazonaws.com/images/ETHDSS-SP%20Fold%20A.pdf > >It calls for fast a acting fuse, not a fusible link, slow blow or circuit >breaker. Interesting. Thanks! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net>
Subject: Re: ELT antenna inside tube and fabric fuselage
Date: Mar 08, 2013
Werner Schneider, << forced landing here in Europe ... The antenna was broken off, but the ELT still worked >> Would have to examine the wreckage to be sure but it appears this relatively mild crash could be a case of the antenna being only partially broken off. The remaining stub would be an excellent 406MHz radiator. If the antenna was totally removed from the feed cable then it is hard to see the physics which would allow satellite reception. Perhaps if part of the cable shield was torn off, exposing the inner conductor, then you would have a useable antenna. The point is we can have absolutely miserable antenna placement and still have adequate ELT performance. Hence the statement we are better to have the ELT antenna inside, intact and working poorly and outside, missing and not working at all. This aircraft appears to be wood construction. If so, the inside of the tail cone would be an excellent location. Tom Kuffel ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: Mar 09, 2013
Subject: Battery U on the B-787 battery problem
Friends, A good rundown on the B-787 battery problem from our friends at Battery U. http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/possible_solutions_for_the_batt ery_problem_on_the_boeing_787 Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery U on the B-787 battery problem
At 08:12 AM 3/9/2013, you wrote: >Friends, > >A good rundown on the B-787 battery problem from our friends at Battery U. > ><http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/possible_solutions_for_the_battery_problem_on_the_boeing_787>http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/possible_solutions_for_the_battery_problem_on_the_boeing_787 Bob, Thanks for the heads-up! Skip Koss sent me a copy of the NTSB accident analysis yesterday. I've archived both pieces in the reference documents folder on aeroelectric.com http://tinyurl.com/ag2e9xk List members with an interest are encouraged to review these documents. If this event had occurred 30 years ago, the vast majority of pertinent detail would be relatively inaccessible as the means for dissemination was pretty lethargic. The 'net gives us fantastic tools for sharing facts and fostering understanding. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charles Brame <chasb(at)satx.rr.com>
Subject: ELT antenna inside
Date: Mar 09, 2013
I know several RV owners that have placed the ELT antenna horizontally on the aft bulkhead, pointing aft and inside the fiberglass empennage fairing. I've got the 121.5 version and use a hand held iCom rubber ducky antenna. With both the aircraft and a portable hand held receiver on the ground, I've had good emergency signal reception at over three miles. Not bad reception, IMHO, considering the vertically polarized ELT antenna is mounted horizontally and waws pointing in the direction of the receiver. My set up passed the faa certification process with no comment regarding the ELT antenna. A friend just mounted a 406 mhz ELT antenna on the aft bulkhead and under the empennage fairing on an RV-8. He used the 406 "walk around" antenna which is considerably shorter than the recommended external aircraft whip antenna usually provided. Bird is not ready for certification yet, but the antenna fits nicely without touching any metal. Charlie Brame RV-6A N11CB San Antonio ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Work bench cord clutter solution
There are 'plug strips' and then there are PLUG STRIPS. Multiple outlet assemblies commonly used in equipment cabinets are exceedingly robust but with a price to match. Plug strips offered at Big Lots and WallyWorld are inexpensive but always made of plastic and feature relatively low-pressure contacts in their sockets. I ran across this puppy on eBay a few weeks ago and ordered one . . . http://tinyurl.com/bbuemvg The price is right, the body is all metal and the socket quality is good. Looking forward to de-cluttering the power cords behind the lathe, grinder, belt sander, mini-drill press and shear along with their companion work-lights. Good bang for the buck. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Cross feed contactor current
From: Dan Charrois <danlist(at)syz.com>
Date: Mar 10, 2013
Hi everyone. I'm working on an RV-10 and am considering something like a Z14 configuration with one battery (PC680) behind the baggage compartment in the rear as per plans and another PC680 firewall forward (As a fairly electric-heavy plane intended for light IFR, I plan to have two alternators anyway, and I like the idea of being able to use the rear battery to power up avionics to plan flight plans, listen to radios, etc. while not worrying about draining the battery in the front for starting the engine, not having issues with EFIS reboots while starting, and having the option of closing the cross feed for more power during cold engine starts - a reality sometimes of living in northern Canada). I have a question though. Say in a worst case scenario I drain the rear battery pretty much dead and then close the cross feed contactor. What kind of current would be trying to flow from the good battery to the depleted one? I'm suspecting that if the charge difference between the two batteries is pretty large, that current could end up being significant. Is the 4 AWG specified in Z14 between the batteries and respective contactors, not to mention the current rating on the contactors themselves, sufficient in such a scenario, considering that as far as I understand it, the current would only be limited by the batteries' internal resistance? Or if the charge difference is large would it instead be advisable to charge the batteries independently from their respective alternators until the differential is smaller before closing the cross feed contactor? Thanks for any insight! Dan -- Syzygy Research & Technology Box 83, Legal, AB T0G 1L0 Canada Phone: 780-961-2213 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 2013
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Cross feed contactor current
Engine off, the voltage on the good battery is not high enough to charge the depleted battery so the highest current possible is what that alternator can output after startup minus other loads. Closing the crossfeed prior to start should not be a problem regardless of charge state and it will be helpful even with a partially discharged second battery. If the second alternator is a small unit I'd leave the crossfeed open after startup as a means of limiting the current into a discharged second battery and extending the battery life. I don't like really fast charging. In fact even in your scenario I'd wire for automatic crossfeed closure during cranking which works well for me. One less thing to think about as it closes and then opens automatically and it opens before the alternator is up to speed. Ken On 10/03/2013 6:59 AM, Dan Charrois wrote: > > > Hi everyone. > > I'm working on an RV-10 and am considering something like a Z14 > configuration with one battery (PC680) behind the baggage compartment > in the rear as per plans and another PC680 firewall forward (As a > fairly electric-heavy plane intended for light IFR, I plan to have > two alternators anyway, and I like the idea of being able to use the > rear battery to power up avionics to plan flight plans, listen to > radios, etc. while not worrying about draining the battery in the > front for starting the engine, not having issues with EFIS reboots > while starting, and having the option of closing the cross feed for > more power during cold engine starts - a reality sometimes of living > in northern Canada). > > I have a question though. Say in a worst case scenario I drain the > rear battery pretty much dead and then close the cross feed > contactor. What kind of current would be trying to flow from the > good battery to the depleted one? I'm suspecting that if the charge > difference between the two batteries is pretty large, that current > could end up being significant. Is the 4 AWG specified in Z14 > between the batteries and respective contactors, not to mention the > current rating on the contactors themselves, sufficient in such a > scenario, considering that as far as I understand it, the current > would only be limited by the batteries' internal resistance? Or if > the charge difference is large would it instead be advisable to > charge the batteries independently from their respective alternators > until the differential is smaller before closing the cross feed > contactor? > > Thanks for any insight! > > Dan -- Syzygy Research & Technology Box 83, Legal, AB T0G 1L0 > Canada Phone: 780-961-2213 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Cross feed contactor current
>Closing the crossfeed prior to start should not be a problem >regardless of charge state and it will be helpful even with a >partially discharged second battery. Good answer. Old timers on the List may recall some discussion we had on this topic many moons back. A List reader opined that energy was exchanged in significant amounts when one connected a charged battery to a dead one. He bolstered the argument with anecdotal observations of the sparks that happen when one hooks up jumper cables between vehicles. He also claimed to have measured significant current flows in a charged-to-dead battery connection. I went to the bench and repeated the experiment. Yes, there WAS a spark when I connected a fully charged battery to a dead battery. Yes, the initial current flow was substantial . . . about 40A as I recall . . . but it fell off very quickly as the dead-battery's chemistry quickly adjusted to a new terminal voltage based on a source voltage too low to significantly charge the dead battery. Later on I offered a revision to the ol' mechanic's tale that a battery was one of the 'best filters of noise' on the bus. I used to subscribe to that notion myself. My colleagues believed it. But consider that a battery has three states of existence in the properly functioning system. We KNOW that an engine driven power source must be adjusted for at LEAST 13.8 volts in order to fully charge a battery at 20C. Setting it somewhat higher, say 14.2 to 14.6 overs a faster replenishment of charge after cranking the engine and perhaps a prolonged battery-only pre-flight activity. At the same time, we know that turning the alternator off allows system voltage to fall quickly to 12.5v or so . . . it marches downward from there with time. So what happens in the range of 12.5 to 13.8 volts? Not much. The battery is incapable of taking on significant energy below 13.5 and doesn't start delivering significant energy at more than 12.5 volts. I.e. the battery becomes 'unhooked'. The idea that it takes on the role of some 'super capacitor' for the smoothing of noise is without foundation. I've verified this both on cars and airplanes where disconnection of the battery while the alternator is running produces a only a small rise in bus noise. A 14v alternator is a low impedance source with about 1.5v pk-pk ripple built in as an artifact of 3-phase rectification. This is a given that drives DO-160/Mil-STD-704 requirements that qualified devices be designed to function as advertised in the presence of such noise. The noise spectrum to be tolerated is plotted here . . . http://tinyurl.com/b3rhjwq This is a 28v system plot where worst case noise is 1Vrms over the range of 1 to 5KHz and falls off on each side. 1Vrms sine wave is 2.8Vpk-pk. Any departure from sine wave allows the pk-pk values to rise markedly. In short, the battery is not an effective filter for anything except gross brown-out events and standing off a runaway alternator for tens of milliseconds required for the ov protection system to assert system shutdown. This ol' dog didn't learn it until about half way through a 40+ year career. Not that it was hard to figure out . . . just didn't have a reason to question what was proffered as common sense. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Cross feed contactor current
At 05:59 AM 3/10/2013, you wrote: Hi everyone. I'm working on an RV-10 and am considering something like a Z14 configuration with one battery (PC680) behind the baggage compartment in the rear as per plans and another PC680 firewall forward (As a fairly electric-heavy plane intended for light IFR, I plan to have two alternators anyway, and I like the idea of being able to use the rear battery to power up avionics to plan flight plans, listen to radios, etc. while not worrying about draining the battery in the front for starting the engine, not having issues with EFIS reboots while starting, and having the option of closing the cross feed for more power during cold engine starts - a reality sometimes of living in northern Canada). Have you conducted an energy study on your anticipated operational needs? Certainly a panel full of electro-whizzies drives notions of extra-ordinary electrical system demands but have you worked out the numbers? What is passed around as common sense often misses the mark for calculated reality. For example, at a lunch time learning session at HBC I put this plot up on the screen . . . Emacs! This is an exemplar voltage-current plot for getting the first engine started on a Beechjet. As you can see, current flows are substantial and the duration is considerably longer that what it takes to get your 4-banger lit. The battery that produced this performance curve was rated at 35 a.h. My question to those in attendance was, "What percentage of battery capacity is expended in this event?" Guesses were all over the place but I don't think anyone guessed less than 25%. In fact, this event consumed about 6% of total battery capacity. I offer this anecdote to support the notion that the perceived magnitude of a condition is often far removed from reality. My question about an energy study goes to your decision to install 2 batteries and 2 alternators of significant capacity in an RV. . . even if it does have a lot of electro-whizzies. The load well crafted load analysis will drive good decisions on sizing batteries, alternators and crafting a pre-flight check list that puts real numbers to battery only ops before the engine is started. It also encourages you to craft a plan-B condition where en route endurance loads do not exceed 8A thus saving a fully charged battery for approach to landing where you can turn on anything you like. I have yet to see a study for a configuration in an RV that truly taxes a system to the extent that Z-14 yields a good return on investment. That's a substantial increment in initial costs, weight, and cost of operation as opposed to a Z-13/8 system that offers nearly equal system reliability with a much lower cost of ownership. You might find it more attractive to trade empty weight for fuel and/or baggage. I suggest you run the exercise to prove to yourself that Z-13/8 is indeed inadequate to your design goals based on the numbers as opposed to square inches of glass on the panel. There are a number of exemplar exercises posted at http://tinyurl.com/9rt6ymn along with a blank form that can be used to put your arms around the answer. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R. curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: contactor not contacting!
Date: Mar 10, 2013
I have a 1977 Cessna Cardinal, and recently it is necessary to flip the mas ter on and off several times in order to power up the panel. It seems that the master is OK because I can hear the contactor activating and deactivat ing as the master is turned on and off. After several tries it will finall y power up the panel. Once the contactor has activated and supplying power , I have never lost power again until physically turning the master off. I am making a wild assumption that the problem is due to a faulty contactor, perhaps corrosion or some kind of crud (technical term used extensively by electrical engineers) on the contacts. Is this a common problem=3F Is chan ging the contactor the right way to fix it=3F Comments, suggestions, please! ! Thanks, Roger -- Do you have a slow PC=3F Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfi ghter=3Fcid=sigen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R. curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Cross feed contactor current
Date: Mar 10, 2013
> We KNOW that an engine driven power source must > be adjusted for at LEAST 13.8 volts in order to > fully charge a battery at 20C. Setting it somewhat > higher, say 14.2 to 14.6 overs a faster replenishment > of charge after cranking the engine and perhaps > a prolonged battery-only pre-flight activity. Bob, Do you recall what we should expect for an alternator output voltage when using a gereric Ford Voltage Regulator? I believe these are factory set and cannot be changed. However I think I read that You can drop the sense voltage through a diode and increase the alternator output voltage. Is this correct and useful? Roger -- Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: contactor not contacting!
Date: Mar 10, 2013
May I suggest a little testing. The next time you turn-on the master and hear it click (or clunk as you case may be) but the panel does not "power up", take a voltmeter and see if there is voltage on the load side of the contactor. If not, then you've got some form of contact failure. If you have power on the load side then your problem is elsewhere - I'd start looking for loose connections by putting a wrench on the connections down stream of the contactor to make sure they are tight. Then report your findings here for more assistance based on your test results. _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of R. curtis Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2013 14:11 Subject: AeroElectric-List: contactor not contacting! I have a 1977 Cessna Cardinal, and recently it is necessary to flip the master on and off several times in order to power up the panel. It seems that the master is OK because I can hear the contactor activating and deactivating as the master is turned on and off. After several tries it will finally power up the panel. Once the contactor has activated and supplying power, I have never lost power again until physically turning the master off. I am making a wild assumption that the problem is due to a faulty contactor, perhaps corrosion or some kind of crud (technical term used extensively by electrical engineers) on the contacts. Is this a common problem? Is changing the contactor the right way to fix it? Comments, suggestions, please!! Thanks, Roger _____ . Do you have a slow <http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen> PC? Try a free scan! No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R. curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: contactor not contacting!
Date: Mar 10, 2013
The next time you turn-on the master and hear it click (or clunk as you c ase may be) but the panel does not =22power up=22, take a voltmeter and see if there is voltage on the load side of the contactor. If not, then you've go t some form of contact failure. There seems to be no intermittent connections because once it is on it stays on, and the starter cranks the engine just fine. I'll put a meter on it next time I'm at the airport, but highly suspect the contactor. Roger If you have power on the load side then your problem is elsewhere - I'd s tart looking for loose connections by putting a wrench on the connections d own stream of the contactor to make sure they are tight. -- Do you have a slow PC=3F Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfi ghter=3Fcid=sigen ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: contactor not contacting!
At 05:10 PM 3/10/2013, you wrote: >I have a 1977 Cessna Cardinal, and recently it is necessary to flip >the master on and off several times in order to power up the >panel. It seems that the master is OK because I can hear the >contactor activating and deactivating as the master is turned on and >off. After several tries it will finally power up the panel. Once >the contactor has activated and supplying power, I have never lost >power again until physically turning the master off. I am making a >wild assumption that the problem is due to a faulty contactor, >perhaps corrosion or some kind of crud (technical term used >extensively by electrical engineers) on the contacts. Is this a >common problem? Is changing the contactor the right way to fix >it? Comments, suggestions, please!! Based on the facts (1) you can hear it operate whether it connects or not and (2) once connected it stays connected is a strong indicator of a bad contactor. I believe all the Pawnee Plant aircraft went 28v in '78 so your airplane probably has the legacy 12v PMB/Stancore/White-Rogers contactor. Does it look like this? WHITE RODGERS70-902 If so, you could get a 'test' replacement from Newark for about $25. (Cat# 35M2084 which is a 4-terminal device. You'll have to add your own jumper between coil-hot and BAT terminal)If that 'cures' the problem, you can go for the holy-watered part. If it's some other part, post a picture of it and we can probably identify it's generic roots. I'd like to have your failed part to do a tear down inspection and report to be posted her on the List and archived on the website. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Cross feed contactor current
At 05:33 PM 3/10/2013, you wrote: Bob, Do you recall what we should expect for an alternator output voltage when using a generic Ford Voltage Regulator? I believe these are factory set and cannot be changed. Yes. When I was working there they were set for 14.2 volts. I'm not aware of any reason to have changed it. However, I think I read that You can drop the sense voltage through a diode and increase the alternator output voltage. Is this correct and useful? The original regulators sensed bus voltage alternator through the field source lead. This shared duty is a set-up for the famous "dancing ammeter syndrome" common to many SE aircraft including the Cessnas. Search for dancing AND ammeter on the AeroElectric-List forum. Anything you put in series with that wire increases changes for regulation instability. I suspect that modern replacements are all solid state even if they look like the old electro-mechanical products. They might have a pot on the board if you can get he cover off. Bob . . . Roger -- Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: I need your help ...
From: speedy11(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 11, 2013
Hello, Apologies for having to reach out to you like this, I made a trip early to United Kingdom for a program and had my bag stolen from me with my passport and credit cards in it. The embassy is willing to help by letting me fly w ithout my passport, I just have to pay for a ticket and settle hotel bills. Unfortunately for me, I can't have access to funds without my credit card, I've made contact with my bank but they need more time to come up with a n ew one. I was thinking of asking you to lend me some quick funds that I can give back as soon as I get in. I really need to be on the next available f light. I will be waiting to read from you soonest because you can only reach me vi a email. Stan. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 2013
Subject: Re: Work bench cord clutter solution
From: "jluckey(at)pacbell.net" <jluckey(at)pacbell.net>
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Date: Mar 11, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Work bench cord clutter solution
At 11:47 AM 3/11/2013, you wrote: >That shipping is a killer... Shipping is a substantial portion of the total price. But out here in the hinterlands we look at drop-on-the-doorstep prices. The core cost of the device is so low compared to similar products that the shipping adder isn't a deal-killer. For example, here's a six outlet device for $25 and free shipping . . . $4.15 per outlet. It's only about 18" long. http://tinyurl.com/dypw8rt The one I tagged is 9 outlets and 36" long with an on-the-doorstep price of $31.49 or $3.50 per outlet. Best thing is that I didn't have to drive anywhere to pick it up! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RGent1224(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 11, 2013
Subject: Re: Work bench cord clutter solution
I got a couple of them in the mail Dick In a message dated 3/11/2013 11:51:15 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jluckey(at)pacbell.net writes: That shipping is a killer... Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: There are 'plug strips' and then there are PLUG STRIPS. Multiple outlet assemblies commonly used in equipment cabinets are exceedingly robust but with a price to match. Plug strips offered at Big Lots and WallyWorld are inexpensive but always made of plastic and feature relatively low-pressure contacts in their sockets. I ran across this puppy on eBay a few weeks ago and ordered one . . . http://tinyurl.com/bbuemvg The price is right, the body is all metal and the socket quality is good. Looking forward to de-cluttering the power cords behind the lathe, grinder, belt sander, mini-drill press and shear along with their companion work-lights. Good bang for the buck. Bob . . . ~44}=1Er{=07(8^=01=12W.+-=12fZ+e,z1kxW=D6=AF=06hn0zf=C8=B8+bzr=16.+-R =D2 =B9=1C*m!=0E'=060@!j=D9=AEr=19r=19=E6=A1=AD ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 2013
Subject: Re: I need your help ...
From: Bill Allen <billallensworld(at)gmail.com>
Hi Stan, Give me your bank details and I'll help out. How much do you need? On 11 March 2013 09:31, wrote: > Hello, > > Apologies for having to reach out to you like this, I made a trip early to > United Kingdom for a program and had my bag stolen from me with my passport > and credit cards in it. The embassy is willing to help by letting me fly > without my passport, I just have to pay for a ticket and settle hotel > bills. Unfortunately for me, I can't have access to funds without my credit > card, I've made contact with my bank but they need more time to come up > with a new one. I was thinking of asking you to lend me some quick funds > that I can give back as soon as I get in. I really need to be on the next > available flight. > > I will be waiting to read from you soonest because you can only reach me > via email. > > Stan. > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jan <jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: I need your help ...
Date: Mar 12, 2013
Hi Stan I will help to ! Please let us know your account number and bank sort code w e will all chip in with a few hundred pounds. Nothing like helping out a honest traveler in need ! I actually live in UK . .. So we can also meet up in person and maybe give you the money in cash if t hat is better for you ? I work in London. I am sure you can find the building easy. It is in the cen tre of town and have a large metal sign outside saying Scotland Yard on it. Let me know when you can make ! So looking forward to meet you All the best Jan On Mar 12, 2013, at 5:28, Bill Allen wrote: > Hi Stan, > > Give me your bank details and I'll help out. How much do you need? > > > On 11 March 2013 09:31, wrote: >> Hello, >> >> Apologies for having to reach out to you like this, I made a trip early t o United Kingdom for a program and had my bag stolen from me with my passpor t and credit cards in it. The embassy is willing to help by letting me fly w ithout my passport, I just have to pay for a ticket and settle hotel bills. U nfortunately for me, I can't have access to funds without my credit card, I' ve made contact with my bank but they need more time to come up with a new o ne. I was thinking of asking you to lend me some quick funds that I can give back as soon as I get in. I really need to be on the next available flight. >> >> I will be waiting to read from you soonest because you can only reach me v ia email. >> >> Stan. >> >> >> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Li st >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Holger Selover-Stephan <holger-d(at)shadowbrush.com>
Subject: Re: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)
Date: Mar 11, 2013
Hi Bob, all, Do you have an update on this project? I tried to follow the thread back to the start, but couldn't quite. Are you testing with these lights: http://24x7diy.com/product_info.php/products_id/94 Are they emitting RF noise? A friend of mine installed lights similar to these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/170941144735?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid= p3984.m1438.l2649 He reports no discernible RF noise. I was considering a pair of these for installation into the cowling: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-40W-Work-Light-Flood-Spot-Lamp-Offroad-Truck-Mi ning-Boat-4WD-UTE-SUV-12V-24V-/150974253408?clk_rvr_id=458017945559&mfe= sidebar One flood (60=CB=9A), another spot (30=CB=9A). The flood light could stay turned on at all times as collision protection. Thank you, Holger (the removable antenna guy) On Feb 25, 2013, at 1:07 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > The first-pass filter I crafted last week > only offers about 12 dB of attenuation of > noises in the VHF Comm spectrum. I've got > some tubing ordered that will let me > 'box up' the filter components and bring > power connection out to a connector. > > Working on plan-b. > > ========= PLAN B ========== > > Wasn't able to put my hands on the tubing > I wanted but I ordered an alternative today > which is coming out of Oklahoma. Hope > to get a more effective filter crafted > shortly. > > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: WigWag's resistors for HID circuit
Date: Mar 11, 2013
Bob, I have two 55watt HID for landing lights. I bought the following flasher which failed after a few minutes of run time. See, http://sos-production.s3.amazonaws.com/docs/ETHFSS-SP.pdf I then ordered the heavy duty version, but had the same result. See, http://sos-production.s3.amazonaws.com/images/ETHDSS-SP%20Fold%20A.pdf I now see B and C sells one (which I plan to order) and notice that the wiring diagram (when using LED or HID) has a couple 75 ohm resistors added to the circuit. I don't know what these are for but wonder if they are to protect the solid state flasher. If so, perhaps I should have used something similar with my first product? Can you describe the function of the resistors? Thanks. Bevan RV7A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Work bench cord clutter solution
From: "racerjerry" <gki(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Date: Mar 12, 2013
ALTERNATIVE - If you live near a Micro Center store, they sell a nice $22 all-metal black 12 outlet 3 foot long power strip that is also ideal for workbench mounting. This device offers no surge protection; however, I merely power this strip from a high energy surge protector (on floor) for full protection. SKU number is 338525; mfg p/n is 576041. If you dont live near a Micro Center store, their shipping seems reasonable; for me in NY, shipping would be $6. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396082#396082 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)
At 10:38 PM 3/11/2013, you wrote: Hi Bob, all, Do you have an update on this project? I tried to follow the thread back to the start, but couldn't quite. Are you testing with these lights: http://24x7diy.com/product_info.php/products_id/94 Are they emitting RF noise? A friend of mine installed lights similar to these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/170941144735?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 He reports no discernible RF noise. I was considering a pair of these for installation into the cowling: Adapting commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS) products into alternative environments comes with some risks. Fortunately risks are very low for the LED lighting experiments. One first looks for a source of adequate light output. After finding a suitable candidate, is it easily mounted to the aircraft? Finally, does it produce noise that exceeds limits for your design goals? For some builders, no amount of noise is a big deal, no so for others. The 23x7diy products are nicely packaged, they DO produce a non-quantified level of noise that the builder believed was problematic and there's a nice recess at the rear of the housing conducive to a well considered installation of a filter. The last of the materials I need came in the mail yesterday so I'll proceed with the filter project for these lamps. The fixture you cited will have to go through the same processes. First see if the light output is adequate to your needs. I used to shine a 6v fisherman's lantern around the attendees of my seminars while asking them to consider if the light output was sufficient for night landings. I suggested that I'd be willing to duct-tape it to my J-3's struts and demonstrate adequacy to the task. That was a 3-watt landing light!!! Bottom line is that it takes very little total light to assist you in conducting greasers on the otherwise dark terra firma. Then see if the noise (there is ALWAYS emitted noise) is too much for your situation, If too much, then you go after it as a separate but final issue. Bob . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: WigWag's resistors for HID circuit
At 12:29 AM 3/12/2013, you wrote: Bob, I have two 55watt HID for landing lights. I bought the following flasher which failed after a few minutes of run time. See, http://sos-production.s3.amazonaws.com/docs/ETHFSS-SP.pdf I then ordered the heavy duty version, but had the same result. See, http://sos-production.s3.amazonaws.com/images/ETHDSS-SP%20Fold%20A.pdf I now see B and C sells one (which I plan to order) and notice that the wiring diagram (when using LED or HID) has a couple 75 ohm resistors added to the circuit. I don't know what these are for but wonder if they are to protect the solid state flasher. If so, perhaps I should have used something similar with my first product? Can you describe the function of the resistors? Are these truly (H)ight(I)intensity(D)ischarge lamps? In other words, do they come with ballasts to convert the 14v DC to high voltages necessary for their ignition and operation? If so, have they been characterized for performance in a wig-wag system? ALL HID lamps have a 'warm up' period of 30 seconds to a minute after first power wherein their light output increases and stabilizes. They probably should not be flashed during this period of time. After that, it seems that flashing is tolerated well and their operating temperatures stay adequately warm with a 50% duty cycle of operation. If your 'lamps' were killing solid state flashers I suspect inductive reaction from the ballasts produced spikes that exceed voltage ratings on the flasher's output transistors. It's unlikely that the transistors failed due to an over current situation. The fact that they ran for several minutes suggests a "pecking away" at the transistors with a succession of events. A relay flasher like the B&C product would not be vulnerable to this kind of failure. The resistors were added to accommodate the flasher's original design goals to service incandescent lamps. The flasher would not function with LED lamps. HID lamps are a third and entirely different issue. You probably WILL need the resistors. Solid state flashing would be preferred but you'd want to identify root cause for the failures and fix it. The open source flasher we did for leds is fitted with spike suppression on the output transistors. This product might do the job for you. I could send you one to try out. But in any case, I would always operated the lamps at Full-ON for about a minute before reverting to the wig-wag mode. It occurs to me that we could do a HID version of this flasher that automatically forces a one-minute warm up period before allowing wig-wag operations to commence. I'd have to consult my software guru on that. In the mean time, you could conduct the experiment to see if my design goals for the LED/Incandescent technologies are sufficiently robust to handle your HID fixtures. If you want to try the relay-flasher from B&C, DO add the resistors. Actually, I have a couple of HID conversion kits that I tried on my Kia last year and reverted back to incandescent. I'll drag those out and see how they behave on my bench first. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Work bench cord clutter solution
At 08:39 AM 3/12/2013, you wrote: > >ALTERNATIVE - If you live near a Micro Center >store, they sell a nice $22 all-metal black 12 >outlet 3 foot long power strip that is also >ideal for workbench mounting. This device >offers no surge protection; however, I merely >power this strip from a high energy surge >protector (on floor) for full protection. SKU >number is 338525; mfg p/n is 576041. If you >dont live near a Micro Center store, their >shipping seems reasonable; for me in NY, shipping would be $6. > >-------- >Jerry King Cool! I have an all-metal long plug strip on one bench that I bought at Big-Lots a couple of years ago for $20. VERY nice find but they never came back to the store. I'll explore your source. Incidentally, that business about 'surge protection' is mostly smoke and mirrors. I'm aware of no products that benefit from such external protections. I've never seen an owner's manual that suggests the customer operate their new acquisition through a surge protected outlet. All modern electronics are fitted with some level of incoming surge protection as a matter of good design practice. That's what keeps the MOVs and Transorbs flowing off the production lines by the millions . . . not for external but internal protection of vulnerable components. Adding it to a plug-strip is like hanging a fox tail on your car's antenna 'cause it makes it look like you're going fast. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Work bench cord clutter solution
At 08:39 AM 3/12/2013, you wrote: > >ALTERNATIVE - If you live near a Micro Center store, they sell a >nice $22 all-metal black 12 outlet 3 foot long power strip that is >also ideal for workbench mounting. I ordered one. On-the-doorstep-price after adding shipping and taxes (10%) it came to $30.50. About the same price as the eBay offer but with 12 outlets instead of 9. Better deal. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Jean Curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: contactor not contacting!
Date: Mar 12, 2013
Based on the facts (1) you can hear it operate whether it connects or not and (2) once connected it stays connected is a strong indicator of a bad contactor. I believe all the Pawnee Plant aircraft went 28v in '78 so your airplane probably has the legacy 12v PMB/Stancore/White-Rogers contactor. Does it look like this? WHITE RODGERS70-902 <http://www.newark.com/productimages/nio/standard/4298109.jpg> If so, you could get a 'test' replacement from Newark for about $25. (Cat# 35M2084 which is a 4-terminal device. You'll have to add your own jumper between coil-hot and BAT terminal)If that 'cures' the problem, you can go for the holy-watered part. If it's some other part, post a picture of it and we can probably identify it's generic roots. I'd like to have your failed part to do a tear down inspection and report to be posted her on the List and archived on the website. Bob, Thanks for the reply. I have a 3 terminal continuous duty 12V contactor that I will put in as soon as the weather cooperates for some outdoor maintenance. Will mail the junk contactor to you as soon as it is liberated. Roger _____ <http://www.spamfighter.com/len> . Do you have a slow PC? <http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen> Try a free scan! ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)
From: Holger Selover-Stephan <holger-d(at)shadowbrush.com>
Date: Mar 12, 2013
On Mar 12, 2013, at 7:44 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > The last of the > materials I need came in the mail yesterday > so I'll proceed with the filter project for > these lamps. Thank you for your response, and update on your noise filter project. I'll wait to hear from your further findings. No noise would allow leaving the lights on for collision protection. Also, I'm interested in as much light as I can get for an emergency off-field landing and when taxiing around in the dark. Thanks! Holger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Work bench cord clutter solution
My experience with surge protectors on telephone lines has been that the external ones I have used have sacrificed themselves and other items have not been damaged. The events took place during electrical storms. I've never had a similar experience with any 110/220 protectors. Did have a fuse blow in our transformer out front, but that's a different discussion all together. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/12/2013 10:30 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 08:39 AM 3/12/2013, you wrote: >> >> >> ALTERNATIVE - If you live near a Micro Center store, they sell a nice >> $22 all-metal black 12 outlet 3 foot long power strip that is also >> ideal for workbench mounting. This device offers no surge >> protection; however, I merely power this strip from a high energy >> surge protector (on floor) for full protection. SKU number is >> 338525; mfg p/n is 576041. If you donEUR^(TM)t live near a Micro >> Center store, their shipping seems reasonable; for me in NY, shipping >> would be $6. >> >> -------- >> Jerry King > > Cool! I have an all-metal long plug strip > on one bench that I bought at Big-Lots a > couple of years ago for $20. VERY nice find > but they never came back to the store. > > I'll explore your source. Incidentally, that > business about 'surge protection' is mostly > smoke and mirrors. I'm aware of no products > that benefit from such external protections. > > I've never seen an owner's manual that suggests > the customer operate their new acquisition through > a surge protected outlet. All modern electronics > are fitted with some level of incoming surge > protection as a matter of good design practice. > > That's what keeps the MOVs and Transorbs flowing > off the production lines by the millions . . . > not for external but internal protection of > vulnerable components. Adding it to a plug-strip > is like hanging a fox tail on your car's antenna > 'cause it makes it look like you're going fast. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: contactor not contacting!
> > >Bob, > > >Thanks for the reply. I have a 3 terminal continuous > >duty 12V contactor that I will put in as soon as the > >weather cooperates for some outdoor maintenance. > > >Will mail the junk contactor to you as soon as it is liberated. > > Great! I'll tear down, photograph, analyse and share . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)
At 11:40 AM 3/12/2013, you wrote: > > >On Mar 12, 2013, at 7:44 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > The last of the > > materials I need came in the mail yesterday > > so I'll proceed with the filter project for > > these lamps. > >Thank you for your response, and update on your noise filter >project. I'll wait to hear from your further findings. No noise >would allow leaving the lights on for collision protection. Keep in mind that my work here is on one product based on non-quantified perceptions of noise. The owner of these lights complained about it, I could detect it here and have a plan for attenuating it . . . but just how much noise is created compared to contemporary limits for qualification onto a type certificated aircraft cannot be known without going to the lab. The fact that this particular product produced detectable noise is not a guarantee that (1) contemporary qualification limits will be achieve with my experiments nor (2) does it guarantee that user perceptions of noise will be driven below acceptable limits. Filters are NEVER 100.000% effective. They are attenuators tailored to reduce noise to acceptable levels which is never zero. For example, here's a plot of the noise from a blower motor that was tearing up the ADF on a King Air after I crafted a filter for it. All I had to do was get the noise below the limit line . . . in this case the filter was exceedingly effective. But had my efforts produced a plot that was still trashy out to 30MHz, all I have to do is get below the limit line. [] Until we do similar investigations for our experiments, the best we can expect is: "This experiment reduced noise to the point where the customer doesn't care about what's left over." It may still fail miserably in the DO-160 lab. Just because the original observer is satisfied with the outcome does not mean all future observers will share the perception. >Also, I'm interested in as much light as I can get for an emergency >off-field landing and when taxiing around in the dark. Okay, your design goals call for LOTS of light but in situations that may amount to 0.0001% and 1.0% of total operations respectively. These may be situations wherein noise is the last of your worries. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: WigWag's resistors for HID circuit
Date: Mar 12, 2013
Thanks for the thoughtful response. Yes my "lamps" are true HID in that they have the ballasts. I have measured the current draw (to the ballast) after the first flasher failed. On a digital multimeter they start at about 7 amp as I recall and settle down at around 5 amp. There may be a spike that my meter doesn't show. The flasher paper work says it is good for 9amp (14 amp for the heavy duty). I have failed one of each now. My procedure was to turn on the lamps in steady state first and then switch to flashing mode after they were very bright (hot). This was about 10-15 seconds or so but definitely not a minute. This was going to be my operating procedure. Land and take off with full steady lights. Flash for enroute cruising. According to the manufacture of the flashers, they are not designed/recommended for HID although the paperwork doesn't specifically say not to use with HID. Some on VAF use the this flasher with 35 watt HID with no reported problems that I have seen. The flashers have multiple flash patterns. Most way too quick for the HID. I was only using the slow wigwag version. 1.9 flashes per second as I recall. The flasher/HID combination did work well in producing a nice flash while it lasted. I like the HID (very bright and lower current draw), and I think flashing is a great anti-collision feature. I'm really wanting a flasher that can take the "abuse" if that is what is causing the failures. This is why I'm interested in the B and C flasher. But when I read the spec, it says it's a solid state flasher. This make me think it may fail in the same way as the others. The resistors were the difference. I'm willing to try whatever you recommend. Bevan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 8:23 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: WigWag's resistors for HID circuit --> At 12:29 AM 3/12/2013, you wrote: Bob, I have two 55watt HID for landing lights. I bought the following flasher which failed after a few minutes of run time. See, http://sos-production.s3.amazonaws.com/docs/ETHFSS-SP.pdf I then ordered the heavy duty version, but had the same result. See, http://sos-production.s3.amazonaws.com/images/ETHDSS-SP%20Fold%20A.pdf I now see B and C sells one (which I plan to order) and notice that the wiring diagram (when using LED or HID) has a couple 75 ohm resistors added to the circuit. I don't know what these are for but wonder if they are to protect the solid state flasher. If so, perhaps I should have used something similar with my first product? Can you describe the function of the resistors? Are these truly (H)ight(I)intensity(D)ischarge lamps? In other words, do they come with ballasts to convert the 14v DC to high voltages necessary for their ignition and operation? If so, have they been characterized for performance in a wig-wag system? ALL HID lamps have a 'warm up' period of 30 seconds to a minute after first power wherein their light output increases and stabilizes. They probably should not be flashed during this period of time. After that, it seems that flashing is tolerated well and their operating temperatures stay adequately warm with a 50% duty cycle of operation. If your 'lamps' were killing solid state flashers I suspect inductive reaction from the ballasts produced spikes that exceed voltage ratings on the flasher's output transistors. It's unlikely that the transistors failed due to an over current situation. The fact that they ran for several minutes suggests a "pecking away" at the transistors with a succession of events. A relay flasher like the B&C product would not be vulnerable to this kind of failure. The resistors were added to accommodate the flasher's original design goals to service incandescent lamps. The flasher would not function with LED lamps. HID lamps are a third and entirely different issue. You probably WILL need the resistors. Solid state flashing would be preferred but you'd want to identify root cause for the failures and fix it. The open source flasher we did for leds is fitted with spike suppression on the output transistors. This product might do the job for you. I could send you one to try out. But in any case, I would always operated the lamps at Full-ON for about a minute before reverting to the wig-wag mode. It occurs to me that we could do a HID version of this flasher that automatically forces a one-minute warm up period before allowing wig-wag operations to commence. I'd have to consult my software guru on that. In the mean time, you could conduct the experiment to see if my design goals for the LED/Incandescent technologies are sufficiently robust to handle your HID fixtures. If you want to try the relay-flasher from B&C, DO add the resistors. Actually, I have a couple of HID conversion kits that I tried on my Kia last year and reverted back to incandescent. I'll drag those out and see how they behave on my bench first. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cross feed contactor current
From: Dan Charrois <danlist(at)syz.com>
Date: Mar 12, 2013
Hi Bob, and everyone who respond - thanks for doing so! It's good to see that the charge differential between two batteries isn't enough to generate considerable current when they're connected in parallel. I suspected it might be so, considering how many wiring diagrams I've seen with a cross-feed contactor or equivalently, two battery contactors to the same bus, but it's nice to be able to verify the current response curve (40A peak trailing off quickly) from the experiment you did. It's always good to be able to back up assumptions with real information. > Have you conducted an energy study on your > anticipated operational needs? Certainly > a panel full of electro-whizzies drives notions > of extra-ordinary electrical system demands > but have you worked out the numbers? The reason I was considering Z-14 instead of Z-13/8 was for a few reasons: - I did do a load analysis, but as it was planned, my endurance bus had the potential to be drawing around 10A. I may be able to get that down a bit - I had been assuming "worst case scenario" of intermittent loads being always on, which of course isn't true... and I may have to make more critical decisions on what really is essential vs. just nice to have. I just want to make sure I won't overtaxing an 8 amp backup alternator enroute during a possible diversion due to electrical problems of the primary alternator... Maybe Z-12 might be preferable to Z-14 if the 8 amp isn't enough? - I've heard people sometimes having difficulty starting an IO-540 in cold weather with a PC680. The battery is aft of the baggage compartment, so there are some losses due to the length of the wire run, which don't help matters either. Some put a larger PC925 back there, but I'm already expecting a fairly aft CG as it is, adding oxygen back there as well. So placing a PC680 in the firewall seems like an obvious choice to bring the CG forward, having a much shorter wire run to the starter, and allowing me to connect the two with the cross-feed contactor for more power in starting if needed. - I've also heard of EFISes rebooting during engine start due to the voltage sagging. Since I'm displaying engine information on the EFISes, that doesn't sound like such a good situation. One possibility is to provide backup power to them with something like the TCW Integrated Backup battery (one of the options my EFIS manufacturer, Advanced Flight Systems, recommends). But it did strike me that a more efficient approach might be to use a separate PC680 battery for that purpose, if there was the use for one for other reasons anyway. Of course, that wouldn't work in situations where I have to cross-tie the two batteries for starting, but at least it would help where I didn't. I was planning on making a slight change to Z-14 so the cross-feed isn't closed necessarily automatically for starting. - I'm still trying to decide on an ignition system. I'd like the idea of dual E-mag "P" models (sometimes called P-mags) if they have their 6 cylinder versions available soon. Failing that, I'm still leaning towards electronic ignition of some kind, but if I go that route, I'd like a completely redundant electrical system for each ignition source. For that, Z-14 seems the best choice. Nonetheless, I'll continue to see if I can tweak things so that something like Z-13/8 will work - I agree it's a simplified, lighter, and less expensive design than Z-14, and may even provide better reliability for some types of failures. Thanks for sending the link to the sample load planning Excel files as well - I'm going through them to see if my numbers are obviously out of whack, and to get ideas to see if there is anything I may have missed. Dan -- Syzygy Research & Technology Box 83, Legal, AB T0G 1L0 Canada Phone: 780-961-2213 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)
From: Holger Selover-Stephan <holger-d(at)shadowbrush.com>
Date: Mar 12, 2013
On Mar 12, 2013, at 10:26 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > Keep in mind that my work here is on one product > based on non-quantified perceptions of noise. > The owner of these lights complained about it, > I could detect it here and have a plan for > attenuating it . . . but just how much noise > is created compared to contemporary limits for > qualification onto a type certificated aircraft > cannot be known without going to the lab. I think my expectations, or I should rather say: hopes, are in line with this. My aircraft is not type certified, and if there's a little noise during short-timed operation, I'll take that over paying several hundred dollars for one of the aviation lights, which might not fare all that much better even. > The fact that this particular product produced > detectable noise is not a guarantee that (1) > contemporary qualification limits will be achieve > with my experiments nor (2) does it guarantee > that user perceptions of noise will be driven > below acceptable limits. > > Filters are NEVER 100.000% effective. > They are attenuators tailored to reduce noise > to acceptable levels which is never zero. Interesting what you say. And I think I follow, aided by a background in science in my gray past, alas in a different field. > Until we do similar investigations for our experiments, > the best we can expect is: "This experiment reduced noise > to the point where the customer doesn't care about what's > left over." It may still fail miserably in the DO-160 > lab. Just because the original observer is satisfied with > the outcome does not mean all future observers will share > the perception. OK, fair enough. My investment is time while waiting for another report from you, and some $150 for the lights. Should I, and maybe others, contribute to expenses of this experiment? Having an off-the-shelf, sub $200 landing light pair should be of interest to a few others as well. And yes, no guarantee for noise levels. >> >> Also, I'm interested in as much light as I can get for an emergency off-field landing and when taxiing around in the dark. > > Okay, your design goals call for LOTS of light > but in situations that may amount to 0.0001% > and 1.0% of total operations respectively. > These may be situations wherein noise is the > last of your worries. Agreed, in the case of an off-field landing and taxiing, noise isn't a great concern. But not so for the always-on flood light, and admittedly, that's a nice-to-have. Thanks, Holger ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: WigWag's resistors for HID circuit
Date: Mar 12, 2013
Bob, I had not considered a spike coming back from the input of the ballast. Could flashing the HID's (properly pre-heated or not) damage other electronic equipment onboard the typical aircraft, ie expensive radios and Nav stuff? I would like to try the flasher from B and C. Can you point me to a source for suitable resistors? I look forward to the results of your experimentation with the HIDs. Thanks Bevan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 8:23 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: WigWag's resistors for HID circuit --> At 12:29 AM 3/12/2013, you wrote: Bob, I have two 55watt HID for landing lights. I bought the following flasher which failed after a few minutes of run time. See, http://sos-production.s3.amazonaws.com/docs/ETHFSS-SP.pdf I then ordered the heavy duty version, but had the same result. See, http://sos-production.s3.amazonaws.com/images/ETHDSS-SP%20Fold%20A.pdf I now see B and C sells one (which I plan to order) and notice that the wiring diagram (when using LED or HID) has a couple 75 ohm resistors added to the circuit. I don't know what these are for but wonder if they are to protect the solid state flasher. If so, perhaps I should have used something similar with my first product? Can you describe the function of the resistors? Are these truly (H)ight(I)intensity(D)ischarge lamps? In other words, do they come with ballasts to convert the 14v DC to high voltages necessary for their ignition and operation? If so, have they been characterized for performance in a wig-wag system? ALL HID lamps have a 'warm up' period of 30 seconds to a minute after first power wherein their light output increases and stabilizes. They probably should not be flashed during this period of time. After that, it seems that flashing is tolerated well and their operating temperatures stay adequately warm with a 50% duty cycle of operation. If your 'lamps' were killing solid state flashers I suspect inductive reaction from the ballasts produced spikes that exceed voltage ratings on the flasher's output transistors. It's unlikely that the transistors failed due to an over current situation. The fact that they ran for several minutes suggests a "pecking away" at the transistors with a succession of events. A relay flasher like the B&C product would not be vulnerable to this kind of failure. The resistors were added to accommodate the flasher's original design goals to service incandescent lamps. The flasher would not function with LED lamps. HID lamps are a third and entirely different issue. You probably WILL need the resistors. Solid state flashing would be preferred but you'd want to identify root cause for the failures and fix it. The open source flasher we did for leds is fitted with spike suppression on the output transistors. This product might do the job for you. I could send you one to try out. But in any case, I would always operated the lamps at Full-ON for about a minute before reverting to the wig-wag mode. It occurs to me that we could do a HID version of this flasher that automatically forces a one-minute warm up period before allowing wig-wag operations to commence. I'd have to consult my software guru on that. In the mean time, you could conduct the experiment to see if my design goals for the LED/Incandescent technologies are sufficiently robust to handle your HID fixtures. If you want to try the relay-flasher from B&C, DO add the resistors. Actually, I have a couple of HID conversion kits that I tried on my Kia last year and reverted back to incandescent. I'll drag those out and see how they behave on my bench first. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Help need for Wrapping Machine with Built-In Scale
From: "Maathai Wangari" <maathaiwangari(at)ymail.com>
Date: Mar 12, 2013
I'm interested in Wrapping Machine with Built-In Scale. I want to use it to automize my stretch wrapping application. Tell me about load size and capacity of maximum load weight. What is best name of the brand the the location to buy it? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396143#396143 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: DISCONNECTING BATTERY WHILE ENGINE IS RUNNING
From: "racerjerry" <gki(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Date: Mar 13, 2013
QUOTE: I've verified this both on cars and airplanes where disconnection of the battery while the alternator is running produces a only a small rise in bus noise. WOW With an alternator system (as opposed to generator), I would be very afraid to disconnect the battery while the engine is running. Many years ago, while doing an operational check on a piece of aircraft ground equipment (cargo loader), the battery became disconnected (corrosion/looseness) from the alternator charging system and apparently the alternator voltage increased to many times its normal output and immediately burned out every light bulb on the vehicle. I was about 50 feet away at that time and I will never forget hearing the engine bog down and turning around to see all the vehicles flood lights going off like flashbulbs. This source claims that such problems occur regularly but not all of the time: http://www.troubleshooters.com/dont_disconnect_battery.htm I only had to replace light bulbs. With all the modern electronics in newer cars and airplanes, I shudder to think of the costs involved should a similar event occur today. This was a very early alternator system with an external regulator; Ford, I believe (although it could have been a Chrysler system). Has something changed where disconnection of a battery from an alternator charging system is no longer as dangerous? -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396145#396145 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 13, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: DISCONNECTING BATTERY WHILE ENGINE IS RUNNING
At 07:24 AM 3/13/2013, you wrote: QUOTE: I've verified this both on cars and airplanes where disconnection of the battery while the alternator is running produces a only a small rise in bus noise. WOW. With an alternator system (as opposed to generator), I would be very afraid to disconnect the battery while the engine is running. Alternator performance sans battery is a function of regulator design. Indeed, there have been instances of poor regulator design but I suspect that those are pretty much a thing of the distant past. Consider that alternators are manufactured by the millions per year and intended for service in very uncontrolled situations. Situations that must include inadvertent disconnection of the battery. Folks who supply such products would be well advised to consider this possibility in their product development design goals. In fact, modern regulator design specs call for ability to withstand worst case load dumps (sudden disconnection of battery and system demands while heavily loaded). In the current chapter on alternators, I describe a demonstration I witnessed at the Motor Car Parts of America development labs a few years back. I watched a technician disconnect a heavily loaded alternator's b-lead 5 times in a row. The flash of light from the arc precluded taking any video of the event. I tried two times. I wish I had 'scope traces for the b-terminal voltage. The energy release was impressive! The alternator's regulator took it all in stride and continued to function after 5 trials by lighting. The Bonanza has allowed battery-off, alternator-only ops ever since I can remember. I did the regulator design for the pad- driven standby generator about 1979. Beech liked the design and asked for an alternator version too. The specification control drawing required a well behaved alternator without battery. Those alternators had enough retentivity in the field-pole material to self excite. So another feature of the regulator's specification control drawing called for the regulator to come-alive and bring the alternator on line with just a couple of volts of residual output from an un-excited alternator. I don't think the Bonanza (and probably Barons) ever had the functional equivalent of the split-rocker master switch designed to preclude alternator-only operations. The only conversations I recall at Cessna during the split-rocker evolution was a concern about making sure the alternator had battery voltage to come on line . . . I don't think anyone was concerned about alternator-only ops being problematic but the split-rocker thing made it unnecessary to even consider it. There's an interesting story about that self-excitation thing. About 15 years ago, Beech receiving inspection rejected a batch of new alternators for failure to self-excite. This brought a lot of consternated alternator sales and engineering folks to Beech to see what all the fuss was about. It seems that the self-excitation feature for these machines was never a documented requirement or design goal. They just happened to work that way. So for 20+ years, Beech was writing specs to exploit the feature. At the same time, the alternator guys were unaware of Beech's expectations that self- excitation be consistently demonstrable. Hence their surprise when purchasing sent them a 'ding letter' complaining about failure to demonstrate self-excitation during receiving inspection. I don't know what was ultimately done to renew the flow of alternators to the Bonanza and Baron lines but I'm sure they worked it out! In retrospect, I'm pretty sure the designs we were producing back then would not withstand the load-dump test I described above. There was no requirement to demonstrate it. I wonder if it has been added since. I'll have to ask. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 13, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)
At 11:24 PM 3/12/2013, you wrote: > > >OK, fair enough. My investment is time while waiting for another >report from you, and some $150 for the lights. Should I, and maybe >others, contribute to expenses of this experiment? Having an >off-the-shelf, sub $200 landing light pair should be of interest to >a few others as well. And yes, no guarantee for noise levels. I don't think there's much value in waiting for me or anyone else to put a band-aid on any particular COTS offering for lights. That market is evolving very rapidly and as OBAM aviation participants, limiting our selection of products to those which have be successfully 'bandaged' is counter-productive. I think I've written on these pages numerous times that I've never encountered a noise problem that couldn't be whipped. With that assertion in mind, I would encourage folks to try anything that floats their boat. If it produces light sufficient to your needs then let's tackle noise problems as a separate issue. Dollars is not the limiting factor for my efforts, it's time. Further, the time thing is more involved than having a clear bench or wrestling with procurement delays. The elegant solution has to be tempered against the tools I have to produce it along with trading out assembly methods and techniques. I can tell you that what I'm carving on now for the 24x7diy assemblies is in its third generation. The risk is that once the elegant solution for 24x7diy is achieved, they might go out of business or something better might come along. That's the down-side of OBAM aviation. Things done on the TC side of the house tend to become carved in stone. Some of my designs at Electro-Mech are still in production after 30 years. Many of those out of production were canned because critical components are not made any more! Things we do in OBAM aviation are more likely to be pushed overboard because something better came along, not because critical parts have reached end of market life. It's a different ball game entirely. So I would advise you to search out and try lighting products that meet your design goals . . . let's whip what ever noise issues arise later. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 13, 2013
From: Jeff Page <jpx(at)qenesis.com>
Subject: Re: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)
> It occurs to me that we could do a HID version > of this flasher that automatically forces a > one-minute warm up period before allowing wig-wag > operations to commence. XeVision has a patent on the "technique" of delaying flashing until the lamps have warmed up. http://xevision.com/hid_pulsing.html Many of their ballasts have a control input that allows flashing without switching the power to the ballast. Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 13, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: WigWag's resistors for HID circuit
At 01:21 AM 3/13/2013, you wrote: Bob, I had not considered a spike coming back from the input of the ballast. Could flashing the HID's (properly pre-heated or not) damage other electronic equipment onboard the typical aircraft, ie expensive radios and Nav stuff? No. The 'spike' would be an artifact of inductive features in the design of the ballast. Just as the spike suppression diode across a contactor coil protects the controlling switch, I suspect that similar measures for interfacing a solid state flasher with HID ballasts has a similar makeup. The risks are limited to the controlling device; FETS in the controller or in the case of battery contactors, the master switch. The worry that such spikes represent any hazard to the rest of the system is a myth borne out of misunderstanding nonetheless widely circulated. I would like to try the flasher from B and C. Can you point me to a source for suitable resistors? http://tinyurl.com/a62m9mx Check with local electronics suppliers too. This is not a rare part. 75 ohms, 5W, wire wound. Depending on your installation, you might find these more attractive. They have mounting ears. http://tinyurl.com/akqxrd7 I look forward to the results of your experimentation with the HIDs. Keep in mind that you should operate your lamps continuously for about a minute before you revert to wig-wag mode. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: WigWag's resistors for HID circuit
From: "hotwheels" <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Mar 13, 2013
Hi, I have two 55w HID landing lights (P/N MR16) sourced from rigidindustries.com and the "low-tech" flasher obtained from B&C. I was only able to get flashing going by using the load resistors (from ebay). Works great so long as you give the HIDs adequate warm up time. Cheers, Jay N433RV RV-10 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396186#396186 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/wig_wag_606.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Re: WigWag's resistors for HID circuit
Date: Mar 13, 2013
Jay, The website you site doesn't show HID, only LED. Can you confirm which HID your have, and approximately how many hours of run time with the flasher so far? Thanks Bevan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of hotwheels Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 10:03 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: WigWag's resistors for HID circuit --> Hi, I have two 55w HID landing lights (P/N MR16) sourced from rigidindustries.com and the "low-tech" flasher obtained from B&C. I was only able to get flashing going by using the load resistors (from ebay). Works great so long as you give the HIDs adequate warm up time. Cheers, Jay N433RV RV-10 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396186#396186 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/wig_wag_606.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: WigWag's resistors for HID circuit
From: "hotwheels" <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Mar 13, 2013
They may have discontinued HID sales, and the name changed since I purchased... Used to be planelights.com. I've been running them for Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396202#396202 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 13, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: WigWag's resistors for HID circuit
At 12:03 PM 3/13/2013, you wrote: > >Hi, > >I have two 55w HID landing lights (P/N MR16) sourced from >rigidindustries.com and the "low-tech" flasher obtained from B&C. I >was only able to get flashing going by using the load resistors >(from ebay). Works great so long as you give the HIDs adequate warm up time. Good information! Thanks for sharing. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)
From: Holger Selover-Stephan <holger-d(at)shadowbrush.com>
Date: Mar 13, 2013
On Mar 13, 2013, at 8:06 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > I don't think there's much value in waiting > for me or anyone else to put a band-aid on > any particular COTS offering for lights. > That market is evolving very rapidly and as > OBAM aviation participants, limiting our > selection of products to those which have > be successfully 'bandaged' is counter-productive. OK, understood, Bob. If it's that much of a moving target. I'll pipe up again when I have the lights and checked for noise. Very much appreciate the time you took to explain the situation. Thanks, Holger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 15, 2013
From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl>
Subject: 787 - the fix
http://www.nycaviation.com/2013/03/boeing-presents-787-fix-to-the-world/#.UULkvDfYW8B ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 15, 2013
From: Raymond Lambert <lamber(at)videotron.ca>
Subject: Ground connection
I have a single seat wood aircraft and the battery is just being the seat. I am running a ground wire (#6) on the left side of the cockpit and would like to connect 2 or 3 ground wire to it near the instrument panel. Any suggestion on how to do that without cutting it? Ray ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: vhf transponder interference
From: "jappie" <jappie(at)videotron.ca>
Date: Mar 15, 2013
Hello again After making a new comm cable , I decided to replace the x-ponder cable also, GTX-320, so I removed the old one and found my BNC connector (coax panel mount) to be a TED 9-30-11 ( look at the picture) but can't find anything on 9-30-11, instead everything I find is 9-30-10.... JP Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396345#396345 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/p3150010_web_188.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: vhf transponder interference
Date: Mar 15, 2013
Just did a Google search for "ted 9-30-11". Very first hit was this link: http://tinyurl.com/aatlnmk 12th item down the list was this item: http://tinyurl.com/au3o3q7 Appears to be the part you're asking for, not the -10 alternate which is the 6th item down the same list. http://tinyurl.com/a7yyv3z Bob McC > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jappie > Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 8:19 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: vhf transponder interference > > > Hello again > > After making a new comm cable , I decided to replace the x-ponder cable also, GTX- > 320, so I removed the old one and found my BNC connector (coax panel mount) to be > a TED 9-30-11 ( look at the picture) but can't find anything on 9-30-11, instead > everything I find is 9-30-10.... > > JP > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396345#396345 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/p3150010_web_188.jpg > > > > > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Digital Industrial Scales Outlets
From: "Maathai Wangari" <maathaiwangari(at)ymail.com>
Date: Mar 16, 2013
I mostly buy scales from Ebay and knows almost every scale brand from Ebay source. What are the best Scaling sources to buy online except from Ebay? I am searching Digital Industrial Scales outlets to buy online source. -------- Maathai Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396357#396357 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: vhf transponder interference
From: "jappie" <jappie(at)videotron.ca>
Date: Mar 16, 2013
[quote="Bob McC"]Just did a Google search for "ted 9-30-11". Very first hit was this link: http://tinyurl.com/aatlnmk 12th item down the list was this item: http://tinyurl.com/au3o3q7 Appears to be the part you're asking for, not the -10 alternate which is the 6th item down the same list. http://tinyurl.com/a7yyv3z Bob McC > -- yup. that is the only site I found too ( I lied !!). wonder what is the difference between them. JP Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396361#396361 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 16, 2013
Subject: Re: Digital Industrial Scales Outlets
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
What capacity and for what purpose? I get small scales for calibrating my epoxy pump from Old Will Knott Scales; http://www.oldwillknottscales.com/?gclid=CP7Ry76rgbYCFcZFMgoddjIA3g Their service and prices were excellent. For aircraft scales I went to a go kart racing supplier. Sorry, I don't have a link for them. Rick Girard On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 6:24 AM, Maathai Wangari wrote: > maathaiwangari(at)ymail.com> > > I mostly buy scales from Ebay and knows almost every scale brand from Ebay > source. What are the best Scaling sources to buy online except from Ebay? I > am searching Digital Industrial Scales outlets to buy online source. > > -------- > Maathai > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396357#396357 > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 16, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Ground connection
At 04:08 PM 3/15/2013, you wrote: > >I have a single seat wood aircraft and the battery is just being >the seat. I am running a ground wire (#6) on the left side of the >cockpit and would like to connect 2 or 3 ground wire to it near the >instrument panel. Any suggestion on how to do that without cutting it? Not with any grace . . . the elegant technique calls for a single point ground on the fire wall from whence all other grounds radiate . . . like this (or your own incarnation of the idea). http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Grounding/Forest_of_Tabs_Ground_Kit.pdf Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Ground connection
Date: Mar 16, 2013
Not elegant, not designed for aircraft use, but - - designed to accomplish tapping into a "straight through" conductor without cutting, as you've asked for. http://tinyurl.com/amv2z6e Bob McC > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III > Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 2:39 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground connection > > > > At 04:08 PM 3/15/2013, you wrote: > > > >I have a single seat wood aircraft and the battery is just being > >the seat. I am running a ground wire (#6) on the left side of the > >cockpit and would like to connect 2 or 3 ground wire to it near the > >instrument panel. Any suggestion on how to do that without cutting it? > > Not with any grace . . . the elegant technique > calls for a single point ground on the fire wall > from whence all other grounds radiate . . . like > this (or your own incarnation of the idea). > > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Grounding/Forest_of_Tabs_Ground_Kit.pdf > > > > Bob . . . > > > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 16, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Ground connection
At 02:32 PM 3/16/2013, you wrote: >Not elegant, not designed for aircraft use, but - - designed to >accomplish tapping into a "straight through" conductor without >cutting, as you've asked for. > ><http://tinyurl.com/amv2z6e>http://tinyurl.com/amv2z6e > >Bob McC You beat me to it Bob . . . I was just thinking about this that option on the way home about 15 miles ago. Another option is to simply bare some conductors along 1" or so of the main cable run and simply solder the necessary 'branch' wires to it after wrapping them a few turns around the run. I don't think this would any less elegant than the split bolt approach . . . and it would make less of a lump under a wrapping of tape. Tape, wuderful stuff . . . hides lots of sins! Some silicone guide-line tape would be a good choice . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ground connection
From: "racerjerry" <gki(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Date: Mar 17, 2013
If you are gonna splice and solder, you MUST have a good mechanical connection; otherwise vibration can easily cause separation. A solid mechanical connection is usually achieved by wrapping a couple of turns of the branch wire around the main cable. The only problem with this method is that, especially for heavy cables, you now have a branch wire that wants to exit at 90 degrees. If you need the cables parallel, which is usually the case, I have had success achieving a good mechanical connection by using copper strands stripped from flexible building wire to wrap and tie several turns around both cables after very lightly tinning both cables before the final soldering. BTW, split bolts work great to give a bulletproof mechanical connection; although as Bob says, somewhat bulky. One thing I would caution about split bolts If you EVER need to splice in aluminum wire; and especially when splicing aluminum to copper, make sure that you use the plated variety (not bare copper) of split bolt, along with some anti-oxidant compound. Please dont ask me how I know. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396405#396405 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 17, 2013
From: Raymond Lambert <lamber(at)videotron.ca>
Subject: Re: Ground connection
On 3/17/2013 9:24 AM, racerjerry wrote: > > If you are gonna splice and solder, you MUST have a good mechanical connection; otherwise vibration can easily cause separation. A solid mechanical connection is usually achieved by wrapping a couple of turns of the branch wire around the main cable. The only problem with this method is that, especially for heavy cables, you now have a branch wire that wants to exit at 90 degrees. If you need the cables parallel, which is usually the case, I have had success achieving a good mechanical connection by using copper strands stripped from flexible building wire to wrap and tie several turns around both cables after very lightly tinning both cables before the final soldering. > > BTW, split bolts work great to give a bulletproof mechanical connection; although as Bob says, somewhat bulky. One thing I would caution about split bolts If you EVER need to splice in aluminum wire; and especially when splicing aluminum to copper, make sure that you use the plated variety (not bare copper) of split bolt, along with some anti-oxidant compound. Please dont ask me how I know. > > -------- > Jerry King > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396405#396405 > > Thank you guys, I will try something that I found in AeroElectric_Connection_E-Book chapter 09, page 9-7, figure 9-5. Thanks again Ray > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Constant RX on a particular frequency
Date: Mar 17, 2013
What are the probable causes if you are getting a constant loud SHHHHHHHHHH on a particular frequency and the radio is showing an RX? I can faintly make out a voice over the hiss from time to time, but I can not make out what is being said. Is this a stuck mike? Would breaking squelch cause this? I am trying to determine if this is caused by my radio or the transmitting radio. Also during this time, one other aircraft made a broadcast and it came in loud and clear and stopped the hiss while he was transmitting. This is happening with the approach freq at my home airport. This has been going on for some time now. If I switch to the tower freq the problem resolves. The approach transmitter might be 15-20 miles further out. Yesterday, I mentioned the hiss to approach and she did something that made it better, then asked me if it helped. Does anybody know what might be going on here? Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Digital Industrial Scales Outlets
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Mar 17, 2013
Try these guys: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=digital+industrial+weighing+scales -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396412#396412 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <berkut13(at)berkut13.com>
Subject: Re: Constant RX on a particular frequency
Date: Mar 17, 2013
Radio, antenna specs? Is this something new, or has it always done that? Have you changed the squelch settings? From: Bill Bradburry Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:01 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Constant RX on a particular frequency What are the probable causes if you are getting a constant loud SHHHHHHHHHH on a particular frequency and the radio is showing an RX? I can faintly make out a voice over the hiss from time to time, but I can not make out what is being said. Is this a stuck mike? Would breaking squelch cause this? I am trying to determine if this is caused by my radio or the transmitting radio. Also during this time, one other aircraft made a broadcast and it came in loud and clear and stopped the hiss while he was transmitting. This is happening with the approach freq at my home airport. This has been going on for some time now. If I switch to the tower freq the problem resolves. The approach transmitter might be 15-20 miles further out. Yesterday, I mentioned the hiss to approach and she did something that made it better, then asked me if it helped. Does anybody know what might be going on here? Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 17, 2013
From: Bill Putney <billp(at)wwpc.com>
Subject: Re: Constant RX on a particular frequency
No hints for us? Did she say what she did? The constant SHHHHHH is the squelch set too loose or a very weak signal on that channel. This could be local noise (computer, laptop, PDA, electronic instruments all make a little RF noise) in your airplane of a mix of frequencies that makes a weak signal on that channel. Adjusting the squelch setting higher will fix the problem. If it's a not so weak signal, adjusting the squelch to get rid of annoying signal may mean that you may not hear a call from a controller when you're right at the outer edge of coverage. It's a balance. The squelch should be adjusted so that signals that are useable (ones you could make out what is being said) are let through and noise and signals that are distant or weak and just a distraction (i.e. others using the CTAF channel your local airport at another airport) are suppressed. Bill On 3/17/13 9:01 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote: > > What are the probable causes if you are getting a constant loud > SHHHHHHHHHH on a particular frequency and the radio is showing an RX? > I can faintly make out a voice over the hiss from time to time, but I > can not make out what is being said. Is this a stuck mike? Would > breaking squelch cause this? I am trying to determine if this is > caused by my radio or the transmitting radio. Also during this time, > one other aircraft made a broadcast and it came in loud and clear and > stopped the hiss while he was transmitting. > > This is happening with the approach freq at my home airport. This has > been going on for some time now. If I switch to the tower freq the > problem resolves. The approach transmitter might be 15-20 miles > further out. Yesterday, I mentioned the hiss to approach and she did > something that made it better, then asked me if it helped. > > Does anybody know what might be going on here? > > Bill > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 17, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Constant RX on a particular frequency
At 11:01 AM 3/17/2013, you wrote: >What are the probable causes if you are getting a constant loud >SHHHHHHHHHH on a particular frequency and the radio is showing an >RX? I can faintly make out a voice over the hiss from time to time, >but I can not make out what is being said. Is this a stuck >mike? Would breaking squelch cause this? I am trying to determine >if this is caused by my radio or the transmitting radio. Also >during this time, one other aircraft made a broadcast and it came in >loud and clear and stopped the hiss while he was transmitting. > >This is happening with the approach freq at my home airport. This >has been going on for some time now. If I switch to the tower freq >the problem resolves. The approach transmitter might be 15-20 miles >further out. Yesterday, I mentioned the hiss to approach and she >did something that made it better, then asked me if it helped. > >Does anybody know what might be going on here? The potential sources for this phenomenon are endless . . . but if folks on the ground can do something that has an effect, then it sounds like (1) they have some notion as to what is happening even (2) if they don't know why it happens. If the mystery signal is easily overpowered by a transmission from an source with no mystery attached suggests that it's not something that is happening by design. A weak-signal anomaly. ATC facilities tend to co-locate their assets. There's a couple of sites west and SW of the ICT that feature an equipment building surrounded by a quad of towers. Emacs! Each tower mounts LOTS of antennas with each antenna intended to service one radio in a shared RF environement with lots of other radios. Unfortunately, this environment is akin to an orchestra of a few dozen instruments on which each user is playing their own tune. Emacs! Back in my two-way radio days we used to call sites like this "intermod city" referring to the difficulties of co-locating many radios. The signals from two talking radios could 'mix' in adjacent, overloaded receiver circuits to product poor behavior in the offended radio and in rare cases, RERADIATE products of that attack with sufficient strength to be heard by a sensitive receiver some distance away. When your observations mentioned involvement of ATC facilities the first image that popped to mind was an un-mitigated intermod situation on the ground . . . one that the controllers have been made aware of and are able to react in some manner that makes it go away even if they cannot fix it. Conversely, it may be a condition that's on a list of squawks waiting for the techno-wienies to come out and fix it. Just a guess . . . Bob . . . > >Bill > > ><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - <http://www.avg.com>www.avg.com Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Constant RX on a particular frequency
Date: Mar 17, 2013
Here's a very remote possibility if the freq you're hearing this on is 134. 825 or higher. That freq is the 5th harmonic of channel 1 on the citizens band and it would go up for each channel. Once I heard this happen on a ce nter freq while flying at 35,000 and I forget which CB channel it was but h e was 5x5. Of course it drove everybody on the freq nuts because we couldn 't talk to the guy but we soon flew out of it. It could be that a CBer has a radio on with a stuck mike and doesn't know it. If the freq you're hear ing this on is lower then you can discount this possibility. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 12:04 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Constant RX on a particular frequency At 11:01 AM 3/17/2013, you wrote: What are the probable causes if you are getting a constant loud SHHHHHH HHHH on a particular frequency and the radio is showing an RX? I can faint ly make out a voice over the hiss from time to time, but I can not make out what is being said. Is this a stuck mike? Would breaking squelch cause t his? I am trying to determine if this is caused by my radio or the transmi tting radio. Also during this time, one other aircraft made a broadcast an d it came in loud and clear and stopped the hiss while he was transmitting. This is happening with the approach freq at my home airport. This has been going on for some time now. If I switch to the tower freq the problem resolves. The approach transmitter might be 15-20 miles further out. Yes terday, I mentioned the hiss to approach and she did something that made it better, then asked me if it helped. Does anybody know what might be going on here? ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gordon or Marge" <gcomfo(at)tc3net.com>
Subject: radio noise
Date: Mar 17, 2013
Bob, et al: Been a long time since I posted to any list but this time I have a question. My RV-4 com radio when neither transmitting nor receiving presents noise to the headsets that is unacceptable. An incoming signal of reasonable strength comes through clearly and the transmit has been ok, but one pilot described my signal as weak. The radio is a Walter Dittel FSG71 and has been checked by Peninsula Avionics and found to be ok, or at least not found to be defective. The tech type that worked on it suggested checking the antenna for good base contact with the metal skin. I removed the antenna thinking that there might be corrosion (20 years in service) and found the faying surfaces to be coated with oil but with bright metal on both sides. I have been through all the connections and find no anomalies. Headset jacks are insulated with clean contacts. The Sigtronics intercom is wired through the radio and when the radio is turned off, works fine. Questions: Would the presense of oil compromise the antenna performance and if so, would dielectric grease serve to improve it? Is there a failure mode for the antenna itself that could result in the above symptoms and how could one tell? Thank you very much. We should talk some time. Gordon Comfort N363GC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gordon or Marge" <gcomfo(at)tc3net.com>
Subject: radio noise
Date: Mar 17, 2013
Bob, et al: Been a long time since I posted to any list but this time I have a question. My RV-4 com radio when neither transmitting nor receiving presents noise to the headsets that is unacceptable. An incoming signal of reasonable strength comes through clearly and the transmit has been ok, but one pilot described my signal as weak. The radio is a Walter Dittel FSG71 and has been checked by Peninsula Avionics and found to be ok, or at least not found to be defective. The tech type that worked on it suggested checking the antenna for good base contact with the metal skin. I removed the antenna thinking that there might be corrosion (20 years in service) and found the faying surfaces to be coated with oil but with bright metal on both sides. I have been through all the connections and find no anomalies. Headset jacks are insulated with clean contacts. The Sigtronics intercom is wired through the radio and when the radio is turned off, works fine. Questions: Would the presense of oil compromise the antenna performance and if so, would dielectric grease serve to improve it? Is there a failure mode for the antenna itself that could result in the above symptoms and how could one tell? Thank you very much. We should talk some time. Gordon Comfort N363GC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 17, 2013
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Digital Industrial Scales Outlets
Eric, this is killer!=0A=0A-=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A__________________ ______________=0A From: Eric M. Jones <emjones(at)charter.net>=0ATo: aeroelect ric-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 12:31 PM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Digital Industrial Scales Outlets=0A =0A--> AeroElec tric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" =0A=0ATry these guys:=0A=0Ahttp://lmgtfy.com/?q=digital+industrial+weighing+scales =0A=0A--------=0AEric M. Jones=0Awww.PerihelionDesign.com=0A113 Brentwood D rive=0ASouthbridge, MA 01550=0A(508) 764-2072=0Aemjones(at)charter.net=0A =0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/v =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 17, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Ground connection
Thank you guys, I will try something that I found in AeroElectric_Connection_E-Book chapter 09, page 9-7, figure 9-5. Not sure this is applicable to your task. I think the design goal is to make a reliable electrical connection to a ground where you've decided that you don't want to 'break into' the wire. You don't have big mechanical issues here. This isn't a span of wire between poles and exposed to the weather. I think I would bare a short run of strands in the main wire, say 1" and lay one or more strands of your new branch conductors along side. Then harvest a couple fine strands of wire, several inches from a piece of scrap. Use these strands to bind the branch wires to the main wire, then solder and wrap with silicone rubber tape (self bonding without adhesive). This should produce an electrically reliable connection with more than adequate mechanical characteristics. Here's another case where individual strands from the wire's lay-up are pressed into service as an aid to fixturing the principal conductors while the joint is being soldered. http://tinyurl.com/c5v2xvm Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 17, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Constant RX on a particular frequency
At 01:14 PM 3/17/2013, you wrote: >Here's a very remote possibility if the freq you're hearing this on >is 134.825 or higher. That freq is the 5th harmonic of channel 1 on >the citizens band and it would go up for each channel. Once I heard >this happen on a center freq while flying at 35,000 and I forget >which CB channel it was but he was 5x5. Of course it drove >everybody on the freq nuts because we couldn't talk to the guy but >we soon flew out of it. It could be that a CBer has a radio on with >a stuck mike and doesn't know it. If the freq you're hearing this >on is lower then you can discount this possibility. I wouldn't think that the ATC person would have been able to 'make it better' but your hypothesis for a potential interference source is sound. While living in Wichita, I would occasionally hear a cb'er yakking it up for just a few seconds as he drove along a main street about 75 yards south of my house. His transmitter was getting into the audio system in my workshop. I think I know who it was at least by sight of the vehicle. On several occasions I saw a white van in the local parking lots that sported a very hefty, center loaded antenna right in the middle of the roof. The van didn't carry ham tags and the antenna was not a multi-band HF device. My assumption is that he had a really big-dog linear amplifier on his CB transceiver. Those products are not only STRONG on their fundamental operating frequency, they can be rich in harmonic content as well. Since they're illegal devices, the folks who sell them are not strongly disposed to control spurious emissions. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 17, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: radio noise
>At 01:24 PM 3/17/2013, you wrote: >Bob, et al: >Been a long time since I posted to any list but this time I have a question. It HAS been a long time my friend. Hope you and Marge are both well . . . > My RV-4 com radio when neither transmitting nor receiving > presents noise to the headsets that is unacceptable. An incoming > signal of reasonable strength comes through clearly and the > transmit has been ok, but one pilot described my signal as > weak. The radio is a Walter Dittel FSG71 and has been checked by > Peninsula Avionics and found to be ok, or at least not found to be > defective. The tech type that worked on it suggested checking the > antenna for good base contact with the metal skin. I removed the > antenna thinking that there might be corrosion (20 years in > service) and found the faying surfaces to be coated with oil but > with bright metal on both sides. I have been through all the > connections and find no anomalies. Headset jacks are insulated > with clean contacts. The Sigtronics intercom is wired through the > radio and when the radio is turned off, works fine. > >Questions: Would the presense of oil compromise the antenna >performance and if so, would dielectric grease serve to improve it? Probably not if the screws were tight. >Is there a failure mode for the antenna itself that could result in >the above symptoms and how could one tell? Probably not for the antenna but certainly for the coax. Connectors on both ends are solidly attached? Do you have access to an SWR meter? Do I interpret your words to mean that only one pilot has complained about your signals being 'weak'? Listener interpretation of signal quality is an iffy sort of thing. Somebody with a rich history in radio communications, particularly AM would have an 'ear' for various quality issues which go to modulation depth, distortions, and overall signal strength. In other words have a grey bearded ham listen to your signal on a hand held from a mile or so away. Also, take the first opportunity in a unicom environment to ask several other pilots how your signals sound in relation to others in the same conversation. The single, isolated signal report may not be terribly reliable. > >Thank you very much. >We should talk some time. Let's do that. I think I've still got your mobile number in my phone from our last meeting at OSH . . . I think that was 2007. Does your number still end in 6966? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gordon or Marge" <gcomfo(at)tc3net.com>
Subject: radio noise
Date: Mar 17, 2013
-----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 4:50 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: radio noise --> >At 01:24 PM 3/17/2013, you wrote: >Bob, >Been a long time since I posted to any list but this time I have a >question. It HAS been a long time my friend. Hope you and Marge are both well . . . >Questions: Would the presense of oil compromise the antenna >performance and if so, would dielectric grease serve to improve it? Probably not if the screws were tight. >Is there a failure mode for the antenna itself that could result in >the above symptoms and how could one tell? Probably not for the antenna but certainly for the coax. Connectors on both ends are solidly attached? Do you have access to an SWR meter? Do I interpret your words to mean that only one pilot has complained about your signals being 'weak'? Listener interpretation of signal quality is an iffy sort of thing. Somebody with a rich history in radio communications, particularly AM would have an 'ear' for various quality issues which go to modulation depth, distortions, and overall signal strength. In other words have a grey bearded ham listen to your signal on a hand held from a mile or so away. Also, take the first opportunity in a unicom environment to ask several other pilots how your signals sound in relation to others in the same conversation. The single, isolated signal report may not be terribly reliable. > >Thank you very much. >We should talk some time. Let's do that. I think I've still got your mobile number in my phone from our last meeting at OSH . . . I think that was 2007. Does your number still end in 6966? Bob . . . Bob: Thank you for your concern about our health. We are well. Renewed my 3rd class last Sept but have not been flying much. Aim to change that if spring ever gets here. The RV-8 (N228GM)is complete but not yet finished. Have had a fun time with instrumentation. I finally had to get the Grand Rapids (EIS) people to talk to the Precision people to learn that I had to use 12v thru a pull up resister instead of 5v because my instrument is not sensitive enough for the 5. I've made the change but not yet tested it to see if I finally have a tach indication. I've also been learning about batteries. I will examine the antenna lead and reinstall the antenna. You are correct that only one (pilot)had reported a weak signal. That one we will take under advisement and your suggestion to do a specific com test sounds good and we will do it. Don't have a SWR meter and I'd have to learn how to use one if I had. My cell number is 517 206 5418. Look forward to talking to you. Gordon ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Work bench cord clutter solution
From: Holger Selover-Stephan <holger-d(at)shadowbrush.com>
Date: Mar 19, 2013
12 plug strip now on sale (until tomorrow) at Newegg: http://tinyurl.com/ckdgpnq . $36 shipped with promo code EMCXTWL228. That's $3/plug. Holger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 20, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Vacuum vise
On several occasions I've thought it would be nice if a vacuum vise I inherited from my dad would 'stay put' better on the workbench. Seems it's difficult to pull a lasting vacuum on a wooden surface. A solution occurred to me a couple of days ago. I used some E6000 to bond a 7 x 7 inch piece of copper clad to the bench thusly. Emacs! I weighted it down well and gave it 48 hours+ to get bonded. E6000 is a solvent based adhesive and I wanted to give the solvents plenty of time to escape from under the sheet. This produced a smooth, vacuum friendly surface . . . Emacs! . . . yet thin enough not to be in the way when the vise was not in service. You could do the same thing with a piece of aluminum or perhaps some plastic that was impervious to the effects of the E6000's solvents. A thin steel sheet might be even better. Time tell how well the copper clad stands up to the rigors of bench surface before it too becomes 'leaky' . . . By the way, the surface under the copper clad is tempered Masonite. I use this to surface many of my benches attaching it with flat head screws. When it gets too beaten to clean up I can easily replace it for a whole new work surface. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: vhf transponder interference
From: "jappie" <jappie(at)videotron.ca>
Date: Mar 20, 2013
what is the importance of the Impedance bushing inside this connector TED 9-30-10 ? I've been told to use use it only with a certain type of cable ... My old one had none, maybe one of the many reasons I have interference... JP Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396657#396657 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 20, 2013
From: Jeff Page <jpx(at)qenesis.com>
Subject: Cessna Switch Bulletin CE-09-42
The FAA released a Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin CE-09-42 advising that the landing, beacon and taxi light switches have been overheating in the field resulting in smoke or fire in the cockpit. This apparently occurs after approximately 4000 operations. The design of the switches is less than ideal, since it is just a slider with no over-center snap action. Since the landing light switch in my Cessna 172 has been in operation for 43 years and 6500 flight hours, it could have as many as 10000 operations. So I decided that I would replace the switch and tear apart the old one to investigate its condition. It was in better shape than I expected. The contacts are large rivets of copper, still firmly attached to the chassis. The slider plate has very thick paths of copper - it is not just an etched circuit board. As the plate slides, the paths make contact with the rivets and that is where arcing occurred. However, the sliding action of the switch cleans the contact points, so during use the current is passing between the contacts and the plates in a different location than where the arcing occurred. The contact operation of the switch is very dependent on the strength of the spring that pushes the plate against the contacts. If the spring weakened or broke, switch operation would be dangerously degraded. The spring in my switch was stronger than I would have expected. Conveniently, the spring also functions for the detent positions of the switch. So if one of these switches seems loose and doesn't click into position, it is time to replace the switch. The switch I replaced is Cessna 0713035-1 and cost me $45 Canadian. Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Vacuum vise
From: Y! edpav8r <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Mar 20, 2013
Bob, Great idea! Very nice to be able to have a vise front and center when you n eed it and get it out of the way when you don't. Re workbenches. I've made a couple of benches using a plain-front solid cor e interior door as the top. They're rigid, flat and stable, and come with a nicely finished surface. It's easy to fab and attach a simple support fram ework and legs with a few dollars worth of lumber and hardware. Unfortunately, the nicely finished surface doesn't hold up very well to gara ge bench use. I'll try your idea and screw down a sheet of Masonite next ti me my bench needs a refinish. Thanks for the tip. Eric On Mar 20, 2013, at 7:55 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroele ctric.com> wrote: > By the way, the surface under the copper clad is tempered > Masonite. I use this to surface many of my benches attaching > it with flat head screws. When it gets too beaten to > clean up I can easily replace it for a whole new work > surface. > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Work bench cord clutter solution
From: "eschlanser" <eschlanser(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Mar 20, 2013
holger-d(at)shadowbrush.c wrote: > 12 plug strip now on sale (until tomorrow) at Newegg: http://tinyurl.com/ckdgpnq . $36 shipped with promo code EMCXTWL228. That's $3/plug. > > Holger SOLD OUT! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396681#396681 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vern Little" <sprocket@vx-aviation.com>
Subject: Re: Cessna Switch Bulletin CE-09-42
Date: Mar 20, 2013
These are the same circuit functions that failed using Carling switches after less than 100 operations in my RV-9A. These failures were well documented on this list several years ago and are in the archives. I've eliminated switches carrying loads in my Harmon Rocket and I am using relays controlled by low-current switches. The relays can be replaced when (not if) they fail in less than 30 seconds, even in flight. The Vertical Power products do this with automotive-style electronic switches. Any electromechanical device, including switches, relays, breakers and contactors have a lifetime and plans should be made to provide service access for replacement. The promise of electronic (solid state) breaker/relays is that there is no practical wear-out mechanism. When a failure does occur, however, it's quite a bit more complicated to repair. There are two philosophies at play here: Design so that it never breaks, and don't worry about serviceability; or assume that it will break and allow easy service access and low cost maintenance. Sometimes, however, in our amateur-builts, we get it backwards... sigh. V -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Page Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 9:08 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cessna Switch Bulletin CE-09-42 The FAA released a Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin CE-09-42 advising that the landing, beacon and taxi light switches have been overheating in the field resulting in smoke or fire in the cockpit. This apparently occurs after approximately 4000 operations. The design of the switches is less than ideal, since it is just a slider with no over-center snap action. Since the landing light switch in my Cessna 172 has been in operation for 43 years and 6500 flight hours, it could have as many as 10000 operations. So I decided that I would replace the switch and tear apart the old one to investigate its condition. It was in better shape than I expected. The contacts are large rivets of copper, still firmly attached to the chassis. The slider plate has very thick paths of copper - it is not just an etched circuit board. As the plate slides, the paths make contact with the rivets and that is where arcing occurred. However, the sliding action of the switch cleans the contact points, so during use the current is passing between the contacts and the plates in a different location than where the arcing occurred. The contact operation of the switch is very dependent on the strength of the spring that pushes the plate against the contacts. If the spring weakened or broke, switch operation would be dangerously degraded. The spring in my switch was stronger than I would have expected. Conveniently, the spring also functions for the detent positions of the switch. So if one of these switches seems loose and doesn't click into position, it is time to replace the switch. The switch I replaced is Cessna 0713035-1 and cost me $45 Canadian. Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 20, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Vacuum vise
At 12:07 PM 3/20/2013, you wrote: >Bob, > >Great idea! Very nice to be able to have a vise front and center >when you need it and get it out of the way when you don't. > >Re workbenches. I've made a couple of benches using a plain-front >solid core interior door as the top.\ Hmmm . . . I've used doors for drafting tables. That was back in the days when the Bruning broken-arm drafting machine was king. Bought one used at Cessna and built a drafting table from a door. Used it a lot of years until the first time I loaded AutoCAD 1.17 onto a PC-XT with a monster 20 Meg hard drive. The Bruning, table and all those tools went into the next garage sale! That was 30 years ago! >Unfortunately, the nicely finished surface doesn't hold up very well >to garage bench use. I'll try your idea and screw down a sheet of >Masonite next time my bench needs a refinish. Thanks for the tip. Yeah, beat-n-bash benches need some mass. The last one I built was when we were operating the Benton Airport (1K1). I used a two-layer 3/4" MDF top covered with Masonite. You can plunk a V8 block down on it . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 21, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Vacuum vise
If I'm going to plunk a V-8 or a tranny on it, I prefer a 12-16 ga. steel top. The oil and grease keep it from rusting. :>). I'm sitting at a desk made of a door on a couple of filing cabinets as I type. "Damaged" doors can be gotten at the local big box hardware stores for cheap. I have a stack out back I throw on saw horses when I need extra bench space. Good for garage sales, too. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/20/2013 09:56 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 12:07 PM 3/20/2013, you wrote: >> Bob, >> >> Great idea! Very nice to be able to have a vise front and center when >> you need it and get it out of the way when you don't. >> >> Re workbenches. I've made a couple of benches using a plain-front >> solid core interior door as the top.\ > > Hmmm . . . I've used doors for drafting tables. > That was back in the days when the Bruning broken-arm > drafting machine was king. Bought one used at > Cessna and built a drafting table from a door. > > Used it a lot of years until the first time I > loaded AutoCAD 1.17 onto a PC-XT with a monster > 20 Meg hard drive. The Bruning, table and all > those tools went into the next garage sale! That > was 30 years ago! > >> Unfortunately, the nicely finished surface doesn't hold up very well >> to garage bench use. I'll try your idea and screw down a sheet of >> Masonite next time my bench needs a refinish. Thanks for the tip. > > Yeah, beat-n-bash benches need some mass. The > last one I built was when we were operating the > Benton Airport (1K1). I used a two-layer > 3/4" MDF top covered with Masonite. You can > plunk a V8 block down on it . . . > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 21, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Vacuum vise
At 02:42 AM 3/21/2013, you wrote: > >If I'm going to plunk a V-8 or a tranny on it, I prefer a 12-16 ga. >steel top. The oil and grease keep it from rusting. :>). Sure . . . I was alluding to the strength not the utility. >I'm sitting at a desk made of a door on a couple of filing cabinets >as I type. "Damaged" doors can be gotten at the local big box >hardware stores for cheap. I have a stack out back I throw on saw >horses when I need extra bench space. Good for garage sales, too. Good idea . . . I could use one of those myself. I'll check on availability next trip to Wichita. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 21, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: vhf transponder interference
At 10:34 AM 3/20/2013, you wrote: > >what is the importance of the Impedance bushing inside this >connector TED 9-30-10 ? > >I've been told to use use it only with a certain type of cable ... > >My old one had none, maybe one of the many reasons I have interference... > >JP I wrote to TED Mfg to ask for their published instructions on assembly of this connector. An excerpt from their reply is shown below: Emacs! I'll publish the entire document in the Manufacturer's data folder of aeroelectric.com later today. The bushing you asked about is used for smaller coaxes. The .2" diameter coaxes like 58, 400, 142, etc do not require it. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 21, 2013
Subject: Re: Vacuum vise
From: rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us
Hi Group Speaking about using doors for tables, I have a big piece of maple, 39" x 72" that I have attached to the back wall of my garage by 3 hinges. When in the down position it is supported by two cables that makes for a fine workbench. Plenty strong and rigid. Then when not needed it closes upward and I have a chain pull side gate style shoot bolt (spring loaded) that hits the striker that is mounted on the bottom of a permanent shelf (at the correct height). Using a door covered with any choice of covering you wish could easily be made into a folding table. Off topic a bit, but on the main level of my home near my computer I have a copier that gets a pretty good workout. On complicated jobs there never seems to be enough table area. Right above the copier hangs a picture, actually pivots a picture. I have two small hinges on the bottom and it is held in the up position with Velcro. Pull it down and two thin cables hold it for a nice sized table right where you can easily get to it. Trick is to tie a rubber band between the cables so when you close some of the cable is not sticking out. One more thought, my friend made a rather long and plenty rugged work table for his shop. He made it out of 2x4s. What he did was stood them so they were 4" tall and drilled holes for 1/2" threaded rods. He glued them together and used the threaded rods to pull things together. He also used the threaded rods to mount to the wall. He used a floor sander to sand things flat and finished. Pretty nice and very inexpensive (compared to Maple). He said he was going to put Oak on top if the surface proved to get too beat up. It lasted a long time, I think he refinished it once he never put the Oak on top. Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Cole <LynnCole(at)foxvalley.net>
Subject: Re: Vacuum vise
Date: Mar 21, 2013
About 30 years ago I made a workbench similar to the one Ron Parigoris described in his third paragraph. I laid 2x4s on edge and used glue and 1/2-inch threaded rod as he did. The workbench is 3 ft by 7 ft. I used a hand plane to make the surface flat. On one end I put a wood-worker's vise. On the other end I put a drill press with an x-y table so I can do light milling. In the center I made an opening in which I can put a Skill saw, a reciprocating saw, or a router. Each tool has its own board that fits into the opening. Soon after building it, it was obvious that the workbench was warping, so I used some 2x4s placed crosswise to the bench top 2x4s to keep the top flat. Even so there was more warpage that opened up the cracks between the top 2x4s. Those cracks were filled with a mixture of epoxy and sawdust. All in all, the workbench has proved to be a very useful tool over the years. ----- Lynn Cole LynnCole(at)foxvalley.net On Mar 21, 2013, at 12:39 PM, rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote: > Hi Group > > Speaking about using doors for tables, I have a big piece of maple, 39" x 72" that I have attached to the back wall of my garage by 3 hinges. When in the down position it is supported by two cables that makes for a fine workbench. Plenty strong and rigid. Then when not needed it closes upward and I have a chain pull side gate style shoot bolt (spring loaded) that hits the striker that is mounted on the bottom of a permanent shelf (at the correct height). Using a door covered with any choice of covering you wish could easily be made into a folding table. > > Off topic a bit, but on the main level of my home near my computer I have a copier that gets a pretty good workout. On complicated jobs there never seems to be enough table area. Right above the copier hangs a picture, actually pivots a picture. I have two small hinges on the bottom and it is held in the up position with Velcro. Pull it down and two thin cables hold it for a nice sized table right where you can easily get to it. Trick is to tie a rubber band between the cables so when you close some of the cable is not sticking out. > > One more thought, my friend made a rather long and plenty rugged work table for his shop. He made it out of 2x4s. What he did was stood them so they were 4" tall and drilled holes for 1/2" threaded rods. He glued them together and used the threaded rods to pull things together. He also used the threaded rods to mount to the wall. He used a floor sander to sand things flat and finished. Pretty nice and very inexpensive (compared to Maple). He said he was going to put Oak on top if the surface proved to get too beat up. It lasted a long time, I think he refinished it once he never put the Oak on top. > > Ron Parigoris > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 21, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: TED 9-30-10 Tray connector
The full up installation instructions have been posted at: http://tinyurl.com/cc4mpsx Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: TransCal Cessna Encoderq
From: "fasilpereira" <fasilpereira(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 22, 2013
I have an old Cessna encoder made by Transcal and supplied by United Instruments and would like to get the pinout for this unit. The Cessna P/N is C744001-0102 and the United Instruments P/N is 5130-P2. Thanks, Fabricio -------- Fabricio Pereira Engineer / Pilot Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396793#396793 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Work bench cord clutter solution
From: Holger Selover-Stephan <holger-d(at)shadowbrush.com>
Date: Mar 22, 2013
I received this power strip and here are some thoughts: * It looks nicer and feels more solid than the ones I got from Harbor Freight and Home Depot. * Denser layout (plugs are closer together) * Main disadvantage: The plugs are oriented lengthwise, meaning wall warts are likely to cover up the next plug. The other two strips have that right. I'm considering sending it back due to the plug orientation. The one from Harbor Freight is the least expensive, and in my opinion the nicest of the three: http://www.harborfreight.com/12-outlet-super-power-strip-96737.html Remember: there is always a 20% off coupon somewhere for HF. Holger On Mar 20, 2013, at 12:51 PM, eschlanser wrote: > > > holger-d(at)shadowbrush.c wrote: >> 12 plug strip now on sale (until tomorrow) at Newegg: http://tinyurl.com/ckdgpnq . $36 shipped with promo code EMCXTWL228. That's $3/plug. >> >> Holger ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)
From: Holger Selover-Stephan <holger-d(at)shadowbrush.com>
Date: Mar 22, 2013
> On Mar 13, 2013, at 8:06 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> I don't think there's much value in waiting >> for me or anyone else to put a band-aid on >> any particular COTS offering for lights. >> That market is evolving very rapidly and as >> OBAM aviation participants, limiting our >> selection of products to those which have >> be successfully 'bandaged' is counter-productive. > Bob, I ordered this light now: http://www.ebay.com/itm/221136934512?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649 ...and will report my findings after returning from a trip abroad in a few weeks. This one had the most light output for the size I can fit into the cowling. Thanks Holger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 22, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 12v Battery Charge Warning Light
Some weeks ago somebody cited this product on eBay and wondered about potential utility for things we do . . . http://tinyurl.com/b67nflk Calibration is accurate and behavior is stable. There's no 'twitchy' behavior at the switching points . . . no doubt microprocessor based. On the down side, it's not very bright. It would need to be mounted in a shaded location and preferably right in front of the pilot for daytime visibility. The annunciation flash rate is a bit fast for ready interpretation 3 and 4 flashes. In any case, this is a good value and performs as advertised. I may mount the one I have in my pickup truck. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 22, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Work bench cord clutter solution
> >I'm considering sending it back due to the plug orientation. The one >from Harbor Freight is the least expensive, and in my opinion the >nicest of the three: >http://www.harborfreight.com/12-outlet-super-power-strip-96737.html >Remember: there is always a 20% off coupon somewhere for HF. Just received the 12-outlet part from Micro Center Online ($31 delivered). It has 'golden' orientation too and sufficiently spaced so that wall warts will not compete for territory. http://tinyurl.com/c54mcvh The strip received had receptacles turned 90 degrees from the catalog picture. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 22, 2013
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)
On 03/22/2013 05:30 PM, Holger Selover-Stephan wrote: > >> On Mar 13, 2013, at 8:06 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>> I don't think there's much value in waiting >>> for me or anyone else to put a band-aid on >>> any particular COTS offering for lights. >>> That market is evolving very rapidly and as >>> OBAM aviation participants, limiting our >>> selection of products to those which have >>> be successfully 'bandaged' is counter-productive. > Bob, I ordered this light now: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/221136934512?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649 > > ...and will report my findings after returning from a trip abroad in a few weeks. This one had the most light output for the size I can fit into the cowling. > > Thanks > > Holger > Hi Holger, I hope it works; that isn't a bad price for that power. However, it does claim to be a 'flood' light. Got to wonder if it will have too wide a spread to get enough throw to use as a landing light. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 22, 2013
From: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker(at)optonline.net>
Subject: Re: Work bench cord clutter solution
Not to rain on anyone's parade, but keep in mind that many wall warts now are oriented the "correct" way which means that they may interfere on these two strips (you can't win...). The last three products I have purchased all have the wall warts oriented with the long axis in parallel with the two prongs, unlike all the older ones I have. And they are all switching regulator versions rather than straight transformer designs. Dick Tasker Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > >> >> I'm considering sending it back due to the plug orientation. The one from Harbor Freight is the least expensive, and in my opinion the nicest of the three: >> http://www.harborfreight.com/12-outlet-super-power-strip-96737.html Remember: there is always a 20% off coupon somewhere for HF. > > Just received the 12-outlet part from Micro Center Online > ($31 delivered). It has 'golden' orientation too and sufficiently > spaced so that wall warts will not compete for territory. > > http://tinyurl.com/c54mcvh > > The strip received had receptacles turned 90 degrees > from the catalog picture. > > > Bob . . . > > -- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. -- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Holger Selover-Stephan <holger-d(at)shadowbrush.com>
Subject: Re: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)
Date: Mar 22, 2013
On Mar 22, 2013, at 5:03 PM, Charlie England wrote: > > Hi Holger, > > I hope it works; that isn't a bad price for that power. However, it does claim to be a 'flood' light. Got to wonder if it will have too wide a spread to get enough throw to use as a landing light. > > Charlie Hi Charlie, Good to hear from you! I wanted flood lights after seeing LED light "shoot outs" posted somewhere. Tail dragger driver here, I need some light on the runway edges. And at 40W LED, I hope the throw will be adequate. I'll let you know how they work out. Holger ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 12v Battery Charge Warning Light
From: John Tipton <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com>
Date: Mar 23, 2013
Hi Bob It was me: thanks for the info, all appreciated Best regards John (RV9a - England) Sent from my iPad ----x--O--x---- On 22 Mar 2013, at 21:44, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > Some weeks ago somebody cited this product > on eBay and wondered about potential utility > for things we do . . . > > http://tinyurl.com/b67nflk > > Calibration is accurate and behavior is > stable. There's no 'twitchy' behavior at > the switching points . . . no doubt > microprocessor based. > > On the down side, it's not very bright. It would > need to be mounted in a shaded location and > preferably right in front of the pilot for > daytime visibility. > > The annunciation flash rate is a bit fast > for ready interpretation 3 and 4 flashes. > > In any case, this is a good value and > performs as advertised. I may mount the one > I have in my pickup truck. > > > Bob . . . > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)
From: Holger Selover-Stephan <holger-d(at)shadowbrush.com>
Date: Mar 23, 2013
The light arrived today. I'm very pleased with the output and the distance. It does emit RF noise, drowning out an Icom A6 with the squelch turned down to level 8 and held closer than 5 ft. WX transmissions are still clear even with the radio right next to the light. No idea that means trouble later in flight. I may just take it up and turn it on to try it out. The other thing is, it's fairly heavy: 1lb 12oz. I'll open it up to see if a lighter heatsink can be made for it. I'll report again in a few weeks. Holger ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Bazooka Dipole Antenna
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 24, 2013
I made a Bazooka Dipole Antenna and tested it in my workshop using a RED DOT 1050A SWR bought on eBay. Overall length = 46.75" Braid length in center of antenna = 31" 136.525 Mhz, 2.8 SWR 127.525 Mhz, 1.31 SWR 118.525 Mhz, 2.4 SWR If the SWR does not change significantly when the antenna is installed in an aircraft, will the antenna performance be acceptable? Links to Bazooka Dipole Antenna: http://www.k3dav.com/buildadoublebazookaant.htm http://www.nsw.wicen.org.au/technical/projects/coaxial-folded-dipole-antenna Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396901#396901 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)
From: Holger Selover-Stephan <holger-d(at)shadowbrush.com>
Date: Mar 24, 2013
A couple more information about this light: it's sealed and I don't see a way of opening it up and closing it without damage to the case. I may do it anyway to do something about the weight. Also, the packaging reveals they come with these beam angle: 20, 30, 40, 60 and 120. I have the 40, and that may actually be the best option for a landing light. The manufacturer appears to be "Advanced German Technology - AGT", and the model number "SZW-SM12317: http://i.imgur.com/AEIcNNe.jpg Holger On Mar 23, 2013, at 11:21 PM, Holger Selover-Stephan wrote: > The light arrived today. I'm very pleased with the output and the distance. It does emit RF noise, drowning out an Icom A6 with the squelch turned down to level 8 and held closer than 5 ft. WX transmissions are still clear even with the radio right next to the light. No idea that means trouble later in flight. I may just take it up and turn it on to try it out. > > The other thing is, it's fairly heavy: 1lb 12oz. I'll open it up to see if a lighter heatsink can be made for it. I'll report again in a few weeks. > > Holger > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 24, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Bazooka Dipole Antenna
At 09:53 AM 3/24/2013, you wrote: > >I made a Bazooka Dipole Antenna and tested it in my workshop using a >RED DOT 1050A SWR bought on eBay. >Overall length = 46.75" >Braid length in center of antenna = 31" >136.525 Mhz, 2.8 SWR >127.525 Mhz, 1.31 SWR >118.525 Mhz, 2.4 SWR >If the SWR does not change significantly when the antenna is >installed in an aircraft, will the antenna performance be acceptable? If you can find a means by which this antenna can be mounted vertically in the airplane, then it's almost a sure bet that it will perform as well as say, at 1/4-wave whisker sticking out of the fuselage. The only 1/2 wave antennas I recall were some vertical dipoles stuck on masts out in front of the wing on both sides of an airplane. This antenna pair was used on VHF direction finding systems to locate downed aircraft homing on their ELT or VHF comm transmissions. I'm curious as to foundation for statements in the article. Further, there are no empirical data offered for the trade off between this and any other design. This antenna and similar designs are touted for their increased bandwidth. But I'm wondering if this isn't simply a function of smaller length/diameter ratios for the conductors. I'm suspicious of the term "leaky coax" used to re-enforce the notion that foil-wrapped (and I presume double braid) coaxes won't work as well (or not at all?). The idealized, infinitely small conductor dipole has a very high Q (small bandwidth) compared to it's practical cousins built from say 1" diameter tubing with smaller l/d ratios. http://tinyurl.com/akb37r9 I'll have to dig out the antenna manuals but I think the classic folded dipoles found on many TV antennas having lengths of several feet divided by spacings of 2 or 3 inches were similarly blessed with large bandwidths. The author speaks to compatibility with either 50 ohm coax or 400 ohm ladder line (twin-lead) which is specious. The antenna will present an impedance at the feed point that will have the greatest compatibility with SOME kind of feed line but the commonly available commercial offerings are 50, 75, 93, 300 and 450 ohms . . .with the higher values being limited to balanced feeders that are NOT compatible with our world of 50 ohm transmitters and coax-wired airframes. The bottom line is that the literature I was able to find (admittedly hurried search) on this design offered no compelling arguments for its superiority over other dipole designs. As to probable performance on an airplane, we fly in a cloistered world of short-range, line of sight communications and navigation. For exceedingly relaxed constellation of requirements, radios like this found their way into light aircraft of the 1940s. Emacs! Powered with dry cells (A and B batteries!) this transceiver listened on 200-400 KHz (radio range and locator beacon frequencies) and talked on 120 Mhz VHF. The antenna was a short piece of wire strung outside the cabin. in some practical manner . . . This transmitter was probably good for 100 milliwatts or so, the receiver was probably in the 10-100 microvolt class. If you had asked the designer about importance of SWR for receive (antenna WAAAY too short) and transmit (WAAAY too long) the response would probably have cited a quantum leap in system performance bove light guns, megaphones and signal flags. Mounted to the panel of Luscome or J-3 in 1948, this radio would allow the TALENTED pilot to fly an non-precision approach to an airport using nearby A-N Radio Range transmitters. Emacs! The return on investment for seeking greater antenna performance in terms of radiation efficiency and directivity (so called gain) will have to be collected in points of academics and/or sense of craftsmanship. The probability that you and the guy you're talking too will hear any substantive difference between antenna-A and antenna-B is pretty low. By the way, if anyone stumbles across one of these radios offered for sale, I'd like to know about it. It was offered under Mitchell, Motorola and Gavin trade names but the term "Airboy" seems to have persisted across all the manufacturing venues. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 24, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Greetings, I'm wondering about the wisdom of using a blind rivet to hold a terminal to the airframe. Is it an acceptable method? I don't know how much compressive force a rivet actually exerts and if it's enough to create a gas tight connection. Any other recommended ways to connect a wire to an Al ribbesides a nut and bolt? -- Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 24, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Wires in wing
Greetings, I don't know what kind or if I'm going to put position lights in the wingtips, but I'd like to run the wire now before I close the wing up. How many wires should I run to the wingtip. I'm guessing 1 22ga for the position light and 1 ? fora wingtip mounted strobe. I assume I can ground the position light at the wingtip. What wiring do most strobes require? Do I need additional signal wire(s) to coordinate the strobes. Obviously, I don't have a handle on strobes. Thanks, -- Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Subject: Re: Wires in wing
Date: Mar 24, 2013
Raymond, Check out the LED aircraft lighting at aircraft spruce. Both Aveo Engineering and AeroLEDs make wingtip Nav/Pos/Strobe units with LED lighting. LED lighting will use 1 or 2 amps total compared to the 2 or 3 amps to drive incandescent Nav/Pos lights and the 5 amps to drive conventional strobes. Plus the weight of the strobe power supply box. The wiring is pretty simple compared to actual strobes which require heavy shielded wires. You can also go to the websites for both AeroLED and Aveo to download the installation instructions. Simply one 12v line for Nav/Pos lights and one 12v line for Strobes. Then one ground line for all. Finally a sync line from wingtip unit to wingtip unit to synchronize the strobe flashes. There are other manufacturers who provide LED units more specifically for the ultralight world. Check them all out and see which might be best for your application and then run wire accordingly. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On Mar 24, 2013, at 1:57 PM, rayj wrote: > Greetings, > > I don't know what kind or if I'm going to put position lights in the wingtips, but I'd like to run the wire now before I close the wing up. How many wires should I run to the wingtip. I'm guessing 1 22ga for the position light and 1 ? for a wingtip mounted strobe. I assume I can ground the position light at the wingtip. What wiring do most strobes require? Do I need additional signal wire(s) to coordinate the strobes. Obviously, I don't have a handle on strobes. > > Thanks, > -- > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN. > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 24, 2013
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)
Hi Holger, Thanks for the update; that's useful info. I'd love to hear about a side-by-side comparison with one of the common homebuilt lights, and with the 'stock' aviation landing light. If you have one of the older systems to do the comparison, please post the results. Charlie On 03/24/2013 11:03 AM, Holger Selover-Stephan wrote: > > A couple more information about this light: it's sealed and I don't see a way of opening it up and closing it without damage to the case. I may do it anyway to do something about the weight. Also, the packaging reveals they come with these beam angle: 20, 30, 40, 60 and 120. I have the 40, and that may actually be the best option for a landing light. The manufacturer appears to be "Advanced German Technology - AGT", and the model number "SZW-SM12317: http://i.imgur.com/AEIcNNe.jpg > > Holger > > On Mar 23, 2013, at 11:21 PM, Holger Selover-Stephan wrote: > >> The light arrived today. I'm very pleased with the output and the distance. It does emit RF noise, drowning out an Icom A6 with the squelch turned down to level 8 and held closer than 5 ft. WX transmissions are still clear even with the radio right next to the light. No idea that means trouble later in flight. I may just take it up and turn it on to try it out. >> >> The other thing is, it's fairly heavy: 1lb 12oz. I'll open it up to see if a lighter heatsink can be made for it. I'll report again in a few weeks. >> >> Holger >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Greenley" <wgreenley(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Wires in wing
Date: Mar 24, 2013
You might also want to look at ztronlabs.com. Bill Greenley RV-10 in progress From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Borger Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 3:41 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing Raymond, Check out the LED aircraft lighting at aircraft spruce. Both Aveo Engineering and AeroLEDs make wingtip Nav/Pos/Strobe units with LED lighting. LED lighting will use 1 or 2 amps total compared to the 2 or 3 amps to drive incandescent Nav/Pos lights and the 5 amps to drive conventional strobes. Plus the weight of the strobe power supply box. The wiring is pretty simple compared to actual strobes which require heavy shielded wires. You can also go to the websites for both AeroLED and Aveo to download the installation instructions. Simply one 12v line for Nav/Pos lights and one 12v line for Strobes. Then one ground line for all. Finally a sync line from wingtip unit to wingtip unit to synchronize the strobe flashes. There are other manufacturers who provide LED units more specifically for the ultralight world. Check them all out and see which might be best for your application and then run wire accordingly. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On Mar 24, 2013, at 1:57 PM, rayj wrote: Greetings, I don't know what kind or if I'm going to put position lights in the wingtips, but I'd like to run the wire now before I close the wing up. How many wires should I run to the wingtip. I'm guessing 1 22ga for the position light and 1 ? for a wingtip mounted strobe. I assume I can ground the position light at the wingtip. What wiring do most strobes require? Do I need additional signal wire(s) to coordinate the strobes. Obviously, I don't have a handle on strobes. Thanks, -- Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri bution ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: King KX170B Pin Help Needed
From: "stearman456" <warbirds(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Mar 24, 2013
I'm in the process of mating up a PS Engineering PMA4000 TSO Audio Panel (slick little unit!) with a King KX170B, and a Garmin GNC250XL, but I'm having some trouble identifying the appropriate pins on the King radio. PS made up a harness for me and I've identified everything else I need, I just need confirmation of the KX170B pin positions for the following: 1) Nav audio Lo 2) Nav audio Hi 3) Com audio Lo 4) Com audio Hi 5) Com Mic audio Lo 6) Com Mic audio Hi I think I know what they are but the terminology of the 20th and 21st centuries isn't exactly seamless. Thanks, Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396920#396920 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wires in wing
From: Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 24, 2013
Raymond, I use Star Company's strobe unit and it has 4 wires for each wing. Here's th e manual, http://www.starcompany.it/Manuali/STROBE%20LIGHT%20THREE%20FLASH%20-%20USA%2 0STAR.pdf Regards Sacha On Mar 24, 2013, at 21:44, "William Greenley" wrote: > You might also want to look at ztronlabs.com. > Bill Greenley > RV-10 in progress > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelect ric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Borger > Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 3:41 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing > > Raymond, > > Check out the LED aircraft lighting at aircraft spruce. Both Aveo Enginee ring and AeroLEDs make wingtip Nav/Pos/Strobe units with LED lighting. LED l ighting will use 1 or 2 amps total compared to the 2 or 3 amps to drive inca ndescent Nav/Pos lights and the 5 amps to drive conventional strobes. Plus t he weight of the strobe power supply box. The wiring is pretty simple comp ared to actual strobes which require heavy shielded wires. You can also go t o the websites for both AeroLED and Aveo to download the installation instru ctions. Simply one 12v line for Nav/Pos lights and one 12v line for Strobes . Then one ground line for all. Finally a sync line from wingtip unit to w ingtip unit to synchronize the strobe flashes. There are other manufacturer s who provide LED units more specifically for the ultralight world. Check t hem all out and see which might be best for your application and then run wi re accordingly. > > Blue skies & tailwinds, > Bob Borger > Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. > Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP > 3705 Lynchburg Dr. > Corinth, TX 76208-5331 > Cel: 817-992-1117 > rlborger(at)mac.com > > > On Mar 24, 2013, at 1:57 PM, rayj wrote: > > > Greetings, > > I don't know what kind or if I'm going to put position lights in the wingt ips, but I'd like to run the wire now before I close the wing up. How many w ires should I run to the wingtip. I'm guessing 1 22ga for the position ligh t and 1 ? for a wingtip mounted strobe. I assume I can ground the position l ight at the wingtip. What wiring do most strobes require? Do I need additio nal signal wire(s) to coordinate the strobes. Obviously, I don't have a han dle on strobes. > > Thanks, > > -- > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN. > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.m atronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: King KX170B Pin Help Needed
From: Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 24, 2013
Should be in here http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/Bendix-King/ On Mar 24, 2013, at 22:13, "stearman456" wrote: > > I'm in the process of mating up a PS Engineering PMA4000 TSO Audio Panel ( slick little unit!) with a King KX170B, and a Garmin GNC250XL, but I'm havin g some trouble identifying the appropriate pins on the King radio. PS made u p a harness for me and I've identified everything else I need, I just need c onfirmation of the KX170B pin positions for the following: > > 1) Nav audio Lo > 2) Nav audio Hi > 3) Com audio Lo > 4) Com audio Hi > 5) Com Mic audio Lo > 6) Com Mic audio Hi > > I think I know what they are but the terminology of the 20th and 21st cent uries isn't exactly seamless. > > Thanks, > Dan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396920#396920 > > > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 24x7diy LED noise experiment (update)
From: Holger Selover-Stephan <holger-d(at)shadowbrush.com>
Date: Mar 24, 2013
On Mar 24, 2013, at 1:25 PM, Charlie England wrote: > > Hi Holger, > > Thanks for the update; that's useful info. I'd love to hear about a side-by-side comparison with one of the common homebuilt lights, and with the 'stock' aviation landing light. If you have one of the older systems to do the comparison, please post the results. > > Charlie Hi Charlie, Yes, I have a PAR-36 light here, and will point both lights down the runway when I'm back in town in 2-3 weeks. Holger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 24, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
At 01:46 PM 3/24/2013, you wrote: >Greetings, > >I'm wondering about the wisdom of using a blind rivet to hold a >terminal to the airframe. Is it an acceptable method? I don't know >how much compressive force a rivet actually exerts and if it's >enough to create a gas tight connection. Any other recommended ways >to connect a wire to an Al rib besides a nut and bolt? Great question . . . Rivets are renowned for their shear strength and grip on the base material by swelling up in the hole as the formed head is crafted. I too am skeptical as to the axial mate up forces. At Cessna, there was a rule of thumb that called for no less than #8 hardware torqued to specs for attaching terminals to ground. #10 would be better yet. One can do the math to compute axial mate up forces for a threaded fastener . . . or probably look it up. But I've never seen data for a rivet. I don't have data to discourage the idea. Are you wanting to ground to a surface where the back side is inaccessible? How about a longer ground wire to a friendlier location? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 24, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
The instructions show the fuel sender grounded with a rivet. I think I'll just drill a holeand use a nut and bolt. I'm thinking nylocknut-washer-sheetmetal-star washer-terminal-washer-bolt head. Any problem with putting 2 terminals under thebolt? Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/24/2013 05:05 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 01:46 PM 3/24/2013, you wrote: >> Greetings, >> >> I'm wondering about the wisdom of using a blind rivet to hold a >> terminal to the airframe. Is it an acceptable method? I don't know >> how much compressive force a rivet actually exerts and if it's enough >> to create a gas tight connection. Any other recommended ways to >> connect a wire to an Al rib besides a nut and bolt? > > Great question . . . > > Rivets are renowned for their shear strength and > grip on the base material by swelling up in the > hole as the formed head is crafted. I too > am skeptical as to the axial mate up forces. > > At Cessna, there was a rule of thumb that called > for no less than #8 hardware torqued to specs > for attaching terminals to ground. #10 would be > better yet. > > One can do the math to compute axial mate up > forces for a threaded fastener . . . or probably > look it up. But I've never seen data for a rivet. > I don't have data to discourage the idea. Are you > wanting to ground to a surface where the back side > is inaccessible? How about a longer ground wire > to a friendlier location? > > Bob . . . > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Holger Selover-Stephan <holger-d(at)shadowbrush.com>
Subject: Re: Wires in wing
Date: Mar 24, 2013
When I installed wing tip lines I had some fun time running the wires from the root to the tip. But I left a fishing line in the wings that will make future wire installation much easier. Just another thought on this topic... Holger On Mar 24, 2013, at 2:24 PM, Sacha wrote: > Raymond, > I use Star Company's strobe unit and it has 4 wires for each wing. Here's the manual, > http://www.starcompany.it/Manuali/STROBE%20LIGHT%20THREE%20FLASH%20-%20USA %20STAR.pdf > Regards > Sacha ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 24, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
At 05:36 PM 3/24/2013, you wrote: >The instructions show the fuel sender grounded with a rivet. I >think I'll just drill a hole and use a nut and bolt. I'm thinking >nylocknut-washer-sheetmetal-star washer-terminal-washer-bolt head. Hmmmm . . . the fuel level sender is a unusual case . . . very low current flow. The rules of thumb for bonding to the airframe are based on design goals for (1) minimizing voltage drop at current and (2) maintaining joint integrity with effects of age. The rivet would probably work for this application but the screw and nut are never wrong. > Any problem with putting 2 terminals under the bolt? No Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Wires in wing
Holger, That's something I'm considering. My concern is having the wires laying on the edges of the lightening holes. Did you runthe line through adel clamps, or anything? Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/24/2013 06:55 PM, Holger Selover-Stephan wrote: > When I installed wing tip lines I had some fun time running the wires > from the root to the tip. But I left a fishing line in the wings that > will make future wire installation much easier. Just another thought > on this topic... > > Holger > > On Mar 24, 2013, at 2:24 PM, Sacha wrote: > >> Raymond, >> I use Star Company's strobe unit and it has 4 wires for each wing. >> Here's the manual, >> http://www.starcompany.it/Manuali/STROBE%20LIGHT%20THREE%20FLASH%20-%20USA%20STAR.pdf >> >> Regards >> Sacha > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
From: Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 25, 2013
If you go the rivet way, a stainless steel one would probably be the way to g o. On Mar 25, 2013, at 2:16, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectr ic.com> wrote: > At 05:36 PM 3/24/2013, you wrote: >> The instructions show the fuel sender grounded with a rivet. I think I'l l just drill a hole and use a nut and bolt. I'm thinking nylocknut-washer-s heetmetal-star washer-terminal-washer-bolt head. > > Hmmmm . . . the fuel level sender is a unusual case . . . > very low current flow. The rules of thumb for bonding > to the airframe are based on design goals for (1) minimizing > voltage drop at current and (2) maintaining joint integrity > with effects of age. The rivet would probably work for this > application but the screw and nut are never wrong. > >> Any problem with putting 2 terminals under the bolt? > > No > > Bob . . . > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Thanks. donot archive Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/24/2013 08:16 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 05:36 PM 3/24/2013, you wrote: >> The instructions show the fuel sender grounded with a rivet. I think >> I'll just drill a hole and use a nut and bolt. I'm thinking >> nylocknut-washer-sheetmetal-star washer-terminal-washer-bolt head. > > Hmmmm . . . the fuel level sender is a unusual case . . . > very low current flow. The rules of thumb for bonding > to the airframe are based on design goals for (1) minimizing > voltage drop at current and (2) maintaining joint integrity > with effects of age. The rivet would probably work for this > application but the screw and nut are never wrong. > >> Any problem with putting 2 terminals under the bolt? > > No > > Bob . . . > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Jean" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical contact
Date: Mar 25, 2013
Bob, Re: the contactor that we were discussing a week or two ago. I believe that it is the original assembly in a C177B. I removed it yesterday and replaced with a 3 terminal, same as was originally installed, unit and it works perfectly. The junk item went in the mail this AM, so you should have it in a cauple of days. It will be interesting to find out what you observe as the failure when you tear it down. Thanks for what you do! Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bazooka Dipole Antenna
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 25, 2013
Thanks for the reply, Bob. I thought the same as you, that the electrons would oscillate in foil just as easily as in braid. So I tried to use some foil and braid wrapped RG-6/U for greater bandwidth. But it was very difficult to remove the foil. It was glued to the foam insulation surrounding the center conductor. So I gave up using the RG-6/U and used RG-58 instead. I think using the Bazooka Dipole Antenna would be an option in a non-conductive fuselage like wood or fiberglass. The antenna could be glued to the fuselage skin so that the ends of the antenna are vertical. The claims of improved bandwidth and performance may be unfounded. But I like it that no balun is required, unlike some other dipole antennas. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396986#396986 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2013
From: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net>
Subject: Re: Wires in wing
Raymond, I did fabricate L shaped holders going through the lightening hole, with a cut left and right to add a tie wrap to hold the cables on the L. Similar things in plastic are available as well. I can provide a picture probably from my archive somewhere. cheers Werner On 25.03.2013 14:23, rayj wrote: > Holger, > > My concern is having the wires laying > on the edges of the lightening holes. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Bazooka Dipole Antenna
> I think using the Bazooka Dipole Antenna would be an option in a > non-conductive fuselage like wood or fiberglass. The antenna could > be glued to the fuselage skin so that the ends of the antenna are vertical. Keep in mind that it's the high current conductors of the antenna that do the radiation. These happen at the center. It's the portions around the feed line connection that need to be 'most vertical' . . .the ends can wrap around the fuselage. > The claims of improved bandwidth and performance may be > unfounded. But I like it that no balun is required, unlike some > other dipole antennas. That's the really phoney feature of this article. The antenna is obviously a form of dipole which is a balanced antenna . . . simply attaching a coax feeder to the center as depicted produces the same conflict as for any dipole. In terms of measurable performance, doing the balanced to unbalanced mambo isn't all that big a deal. For a plastic/wood airplane, you might consider 1" wide copper foil tape stuck to the inside surface of the fuselage. See the foil antenna series of pictures at: http://tinyurl.com/btbu4cm The elements for VHF comm would start at 22+ inches each and then get trimmed for lowest SWR at 126Mhz. The width of the foil goes to bandwidth. As suggested before, orientation in the aircraft should have as much of the center vertical with the ends wrapping around the upper and lower surfaced of the fuselage. Bob Archer's SA-006 antenna is one example of a physically shortened design with an unbalanced feed point. http://media.chiefaircraft.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/im If you're inclined to experimentation, you could do some more work on the bench with a design that makes a bit more sense than the 'bazooka' dipole. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical
contact >The junk item went in the mail this AM, so you should have it in a >cauple of days. It will be interesting to find out what you observe >as the failure when you tear it down. Great! >Thanks for what you do! You're most welcome sir. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "CHARLES T BECKER" <ctbecker(at)atlanticbb.net>
Subject: Re: Wires in wing
Date: Mar 25, 2013
Secure a length of 1/2-3/4 in thinwall plastic conduit from the aviation department at Lowes/Home Depot in the wing with wire ties. I did mine after we had closed the wing. The smooth surface makes fishing wire super easy. Holger Selover-Stephan wrote: > When I installed wing tip lines I had some fun time >running the wires from the root to the tip. But I left a >fishing line in the wings that will make future wire >installation much easier. Just another thought on this >topic... > > Holger > > On Mar 24, 2013, at 2:24 PM, Sacha wrote: > >> Raymond, >> I use Star Company's strobe unit and it has 4 wires for >>each wing. Here's the manual, >> http://www.starcompany.it/Manuali/STROBE%20LIGHT%20THREE%20FLASH%20-%20USA%20STAR.pdf >> Regards >> Sacha ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Wires in wing
I'm not sure how I would install the tie wrap inside a closed wing. Right now I'm leaning toward installing adel clamps with a piece of lacing cord strung through them. I think a 1/2 inch cushioned clamp should be large enough. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/25/2013 09:30 AM, Werner Schneider wrote: > > > Raymond, I did fabricate L shaped holders going through the lightening > hole, with a cut left and right to add a tie wrap to hold the cables > on the L. Similar things in plastic are available as well. > > I can provide a picture probably from my archive somewhere. > > cheers Werner > > On 25.03.2013 14:23, rayj wrote: >> Holger, >> >> My concern is having the wires laying >> on the edges of the lightening holes. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Wires in wing
At 09:55 AM 3/25/2013, you wrote: >I'm not sure how I would install the tie wrap inside a closed >wing. Right now I'm leaning toward installing adel clamps with a >piece of lacing cord strung through them. I think a 1/2 inch >cushioned clamp should be large enough. Consider a plastic conduit in Adel clamps. The hardware stores stock a variety of water pipe in sizes down to 3/8". I think you'll find that the 3/8 is large enough to accept your wires . . . it's easy to test at the store . . . otherwise go up to 1/2". Here'a one example of many. http://tinyurl.com/cccad2q The stuff is light, cheap, smooth wall and 100% assurance for ease of installing wires at a later date. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2013
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Re: Wires in wing
On 3/25/2013 11:36 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > I think you'll find that the 3/8 is large enough to accept your > wires > The stuff is light, cheap, smooth wall and 100% assurance for > ease > of installing wires at a later date. I used a length of that tubing to PUSH the antenna and nav/strobe light wires through the wing hole in my Long EZ. Taped the wires to the end of the tubing, then pushed the tubing through. Removed the tubing when done, leaving the wires inside the original foam tunnel with no tubing around it. Don't want that extra weight in there! Clamped the wires where they exited the tunnel to hold them in place...don't really care what they do inside the foam tunnel. Harley Dixon ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2013
From: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net>
Subject: Re: Wires in wing
Sorry, I did not get it you had a closed wing, I did these before closing the wing. On 25.03.2013 15:55, rayj wrote: > I'm not sure how I would install the tie wrap inside a closed wing. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bazooka Dipole Antenna
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 25, 2013
Bob, Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Sometimes I believe what I read on the internet even though I should not. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397003#397003 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Wires in wing
Date: Mar 25, 2013
Bob, I considered using plastic/PVC plumbing tubing/pipe for the conduit in the wing of my RV-7A but rejected it based on the idea that combustion bi-products from those materials could be lethal. In the event of a fire, I might be rendered unconscious (or worse) before I even got a chance to fight the fire. Therefore I opted for some thin-wall aluminum tube. I'm curious about what other "listers" think. -Jeff _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 07:36 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing At 09:55 AM 3/25/2013, you wrote: I'm not sure how I would install the tie wrap inside a closed wing. Right now I'm leaning toward installing adel clamps with a piece of lacing cord strung through them. I think a 1/2 inch cushioned clamp should be large enough. Consider a plastic conduit in Adel clamps. The hardware stores stock a variety of water pipe in sizes down to 3/8". I think you'll find that the 3/8 is large enough to accept your wires . . . it's easy to test at the store . . . otherwise go up to 1/2". Here'a one example of many. http://tinyurl.com/cccad2q The stuff is light, cheap, smooth wall and 100% assurance for ease of installing wires at a later date. Bob . . . No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2013
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
No doubt a rivet would work for awhile but considering that I often use various 1/8" pulled rivets as a movable pivot for things like specialized bolt holding pliers, I really don't think they have much residual axial tension after pulling. Put one rivet through two pieces of scrap aluminum and you will see what I mean. Corrosion-x "oil" always seems to seep out around these rivets even when applied after painting and even if the rivet was inserted wet with epoxy primer. Doesn't seem likely to be gas tight to me. Ken On 24/03/2013 9:16 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 05:36 PM 3/24/2013, you wrote: >> The instructions show the fuel sender grounded with a rivet. I think >> I'll just drill a hole and use a nut and bolt. I'm thinking >> nylocknut-washer-sheetmetal-star washer-terminal-washer-bolt head. > > Hmmmm . . . the fuel level sender is a unusual case . . . > very low current flow. The rules of thumb for bonding > to the airframe are based on design goals for (1) minimizing > voltage drop at current and (2) maintaining joint integrity > with effects of age. The rivet would probably work for this > application but the screw and nut are never wrong. > >> Any problem with putting 2 terminals under the bolt? > > No > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Wires in wing
Jeff, That is my 1st choice. Where did you get your thin wall aluminum. I've not been able to find anything that was the right combination of weight, stiffness/straightness, cost and diameter. Something like lawn furniture tubing only smallerdia. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/25/2013 12:36 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote: > > Bob, > > I considered using plastic/PVC plumbing tubing/pipe for the conduit in > the wing of my RV-7A but rejected it based on the idea that combustion > bi-products from those materials could be lethal. In the event of a > fire, I might be rendered unconscious (or worse) before I even got a > chance to fight the fire. > > Therefore I opted for some thin-wall aluminum tube. I'm curious about > what other "listers" think. > > -Jeff > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Robert L. Nuckolls, III > *Sent:* Monday, March 25, 2013 07:36 > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing > > At 09:55 AM 3/25/2013, you wrote: > > I'm not sure how I would install the tie wrap inside a closed wing. > Right now I'm leaning toward installing adel clamps with a piece of > lacing cord strung through them. I think a 1/2 inch cushioned clamp > should be large enough. > > > Consider a plastic conduit in Adel clamps. The hardware stores > stock a variety of water pipe in sizes down to 3/8". I think you'll > find that the 3/8 is large enough to accept your wires . . . it's > easy to test at the store . . . otherwise go up to 1/2". Here'a > one example of many. > > http://tinyurl.com/cccad2q > > The stuff is light, cheap, smooth wall and 100% assurance for ease > of installing wires at a later date. > > > Bob . . . > > * * > * * > ** > ** > ** > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List* > ** > ** > *http://forums.matronics.com* > ** > ** > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > * * > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > 03/23/13 > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
My thoughts also. I've been looking for some #10 (an2?)"blessed"fasteners without much luck. Anyone know a good source. An3 seems like overkill for a grounding wire. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/25/2013 12:22 PM, Ken wrote: > > No doubt a rivet would work for awhile but considering that I often > use various 1/8" pulled rivets as a movable pivot for things like > specialized bolt holding pliers, I really don't think they have much > residual axial tension after pulling. Put one rivet through two pieces > of scrap aluminum and you will see what I mean. Corrosion-x "oil" > always seems to seep out around these rivets even when applied after > painting and even if the rivet was inserted wet with epoxy primer. > Doesn't seem likely to be gas tight to me. > Ken > > On 24/03/2013 9:16 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> At 05:36 PM 3/24/2013, you wrote: >>> The instructions show the fuel sender grounded with a rivet. I think >>> I'll just drill a hole and use a nut and bolt. I'm thinking >>> nylocknut-washer-sheetmetal-star washer-terminal-washer-bolt head. >> >> Hmmmm . . . the fuel level sender is a unusual case . . . >> very low current flow. The rules of thumb for bonding >> to the airframe are based on design goals for (1) minimizing >> voltage drop at current and (2) maintaining joint integrity >> with effects of age. The rivet would probably work for this >> application but the screw and nut are never wrong. >> >>> Any problem with putting 2 terminals under the bolt? >> >> No >> >> Bob . . . >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com>
Subject: Wires in wing
Date: Mar 25, 2013
If you were talking about wiring in your cockpit or fuselage I'd agree; but if you have a fire in your wing I think that gasses are going to be one of your smaller worries.. J Johannnesburg Jay From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Luckey Sent: 25 March 2013 07:37 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing Bob, I considered using plastic/PVC plumbing tubing/pipe for the conduit in the wing of my RV-7A but rejected it based on the idea that combustion bi-products from those materials could be lethal. In the event of a fire, I might be rendered unconscious (or worse) before I even got a chance to fight the fire. Therefore I opted for some thin-wall aluminum tube. I'm curious about what other "listers" think. -Jeff _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 07:36 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing At 09:55 AM 3/25/2013, you wrote: I'm not sure how I would install the tie wrap inside a closed wing. Right now I'm leaning toward installing adel clamps with a piece of lacing cord strung through them. I think a 1/2 inch cushioned clamp should be large enough. Consider a plastic conduit in Adel clamps. The hardware stores stock a variety of water pipe in sizes down to 3/8". I think you'll find that the 3/8 is large enough to accept your wires . . . it's easy to test at the store . . . otherwise go up to 1/2". Here'a one example of many. http://tinyurl.com/cccad2q The stuff is light, cheap, smooth wall and 100% assurance for ease of installing wires at a later date. Bob . . . http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 03/23/13 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Bazooka Dipole Antenna
At 10:57 AM 3/25/2013, you wrote: > >Bob, >Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Sometimes I believe what I read >on the internet even though I should not. >Joe Better to have read, considered and accepted/rejected for logical reasons. Education is not cheap. It takes time, thought, experimentation, study and in some cases assumption of risk. Over my lifetime, I've probably pitched $thousands$ in poor return-on-investment or failed experiments . . . but it's just as useful to know what things do work as for those that do not. I'm pleased that you brought this conversation to the List! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
At 01:08 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: >My thoughts also. I've been looking for some #10 (an2?) "blessed" >fasteners without much luck. Anyone know a good source. An3 seems >like overkill for a grounding wire. Consider the effects of scale. In the case for grounding a fuel level sensor (22AWG wires?) and milliamps of current, #6 hardware is certainly robust enough to the task. The larger fasteners come into play when you're wanting to increase the gas-tight contact area for the purpose of carrying lots of current. For example, taking a battery(-) to structure would certainly benefit from the capabilities of #10 or even .25 hardware to put the super-mash on the terminals. Cessna's rule of thumb was for #8 hardware probably sufficed for most appliances. The occasional device (landing gear hydraulic pumps for example) would give pause to consider something larger. Milliamp loads would be fine with #6. The question that launched this thread called for considering the long term performance of a rivet to provide axial pressures on made-up parts. I think the consensus was that rivets are problematic but appropriately sized threaded fasteners were always appropriate. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2013
Subject: Re: Wires in wing
From: DeWitt Whittington <dee.whittington(at)gmail.com>
Ditto. We ran HDPE (High Density Polyethelyne) tubing through left and right wings in our Sportsman. Works well. Here are a couple of photos. We got it from McMaster-Carr. 50375 K534 HDPE tubing 3/4 OD x 5/8 ID x 1/16 wall Dee On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Jay Hyde wrote: > If you were talking about wiring in your cockpit or fuselage I=92d agree; > but if you have a fire in your wing I think that gasses are going to be o ne > of your smaller worries=85. J**** > > ** ** > > Johannnesburg Jay**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: > owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Luckey > *Sent:* 25 March 2013 07:37 PM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing**** > > ** ** > > Bob,**** > > ** ** > > I considered using plastic/PVC plumbing tubing/pipe for the conduit in th e > wing of my RV-7A but rejected it based on the idea that combustion > bi-products from those materials could be lethal. In the event of a fire , > I might be rendered unconscious (or worse) before I even got a chance to > fight the fire.**** > > ** ** > > Therefore I opted for some thin-wall aluminum tube. I=92m curious about > what other =93listers=94 think.**** > > ** ** > > -Jeff**** > > ** ** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [ > mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] > *On Behalf Of *Robert L. Nuckolls, III > *Sent:* Monday, March 25, 2013 07:36 > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing**** > > ** ** > > At 09:55 AM 3/25/2013, you wrote:**** > > I'm not sure how I would install the tie wrap inside a closed wing. Righ t > now I'm leaning toward installing adel clamps with a piece of lacing cord > strung through them. I think a 1/2 inch cushioned clamp should be large > enough.**** > > > Consider a plastic conduit in Adel clamps. The hardware stores > stock a variety of water pipe in sizes down to 3/8". I think you'll > find that the 3/8 is large enough to accept your wires . . . it's > easy to test at the store . . . otherwise go up to 1/2". Here'a > one example of many. > > http://tinyurl.com/cccad2q > > The stuff is light, cheap, smooth wall and 100% assurance for ease > of installing wires at a later date. > > **** > > Bob . . . **** > > * * > > * * > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List* > > * * > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > * * > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > * * > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > 03/23/13**** > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > -- DeWitt (Dee) Whittington 804-677-4849 iPhone 804-358-4333 Home www.VirginiaFlyIn.org Building Glasair Sportsman with 3 partners ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head boltsbecause I prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. I gave up my search and ordered some #8 and #10 phillips round head screws. I'll probably stock up on #10 terminals and use them for all my ground connections. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/25/2013 02:38 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 01:08 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: >> My thoughts also. I've been looking for some #10 (an2?) "blessed" >> fasteners without much luck. Anyone know a good source. An3 seems >> like overkill for a grounding wire. > > Consider the effects of scale. In the case for > grounding a fuel level sensor (22AWG wires?) > and milliamps of current, #6 hardware is > certainly robust enough to the task. The > larger fasteners come into play when you're > wanting to increase the gas-tight contact > area for the purpose of carrying lots of current. > For example, taking a battery(-) to structure > would certainly benefit from the capabilities of > #10 or even .25 hardware to put the super-mash > on the terminals. > > Cessna's rule of thumb was for #8 hardware > probably sufficed for most appliances. The > occasional device (landing gear hydraulic pumps > for example) would give pause to consider something > larger. Milliamp loads would be fine with #6. > > The question that launched this thread called > for considering the long term performance of > a rivet to provide axial pressures on made-up > parts. I think the consensus was that rivets > are problematic but appropriately sized threaded > fasteners were always appropriate. > > Bob . . . > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Wires in wing
Thanks for all the information and ideas on running wire through the wing. I have decided to go with cushioned adelclampsand run some lacing cord through for pulling wire at a later date. Thanks again for everyone's input. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/25/2013 02:45 PM, DeWitt Whittington wrote: > Ditto. We ran HDPE (High Density Polyethelyne) tubing through left and > right wings in our Sportsman. Works well. Here are a couple of photos. > > We got it from McMaster-Carr. 50375 K534 HDPE tubing 3/4 OD x 5/8 ID > x 1/16 wall > > Dee > > > On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Jay Hyde > wrote: > > If you were talking about wiring in your cockpit or fuselage I'd > agree; but if you have a fire in your wing I think that gasses are > going to be one of your smaller worries.... J > > Johannnesburg Jay > > *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > ] *On Behalf > Of *Jeff Luckey > *Sent:* 25 March 2013 07:37 PM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > > *Subject:* RE: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing > > Bob, > > I considered using plastic/PVC plumbing tubing/pipe for the > conduit in the wing of my RV-7A but rejected it based on the idea > that combustion bi-products from those materials could be lethal. > In the event of a fire, I might be rendered unconscious (or worse) > before I even got a chance to fight the fire. > > Therefore I opted for some thin-wall aluminum tube. I'm curious > about what other "listers" think. > > -Jeff > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf > Of *Robert L. Nuckolls, III > *Sent:* Monday, March 25, 2013 07:36 > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing > > At 09:55 AM 3/25/2013, you wrote: > > I'm not sure how I would install the tie wrap inside a closed > wing. Right now I'm leaning toward installing adel clamps with a > piece of lacing cord strung through them. I think a 1/2 inch > cushioned clamp should be large enough. > > > Consider a plastic conduit in Adel clamps. The hardware stores > stock a variety of water pipe in sizes down to 3/8". I think you'll > find that the 3/8 is large enough to accept your wires . . . it's > easy to test at the store . . . otherwise go up to 1/2". Here'a > one example of many. > > http://tinyurl.com/cccad2q > > The stuff is light, cheap, smooth wall and 100% assurance for ease > of installing wires at a later date. > > Bob . . . > > * * > > * * > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List* > > * * > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > * * > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > * * > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > 03/23/13 > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > **http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List** > > **** > > ** > > ** > > **http://forums.matronics.com** > > **** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > > ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > * > > > -- > DeWitt (Dee) Whittington > 804-677-4849 iPhone > 804-358-4333 Home > www.VirginiaFlyIn.org <http://www.VirginiaFlyIn.org> > Building Glasair Sportsman with 3 partners > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
Date: Mar 25, 2013
When I compare the threads on my AN3 bolts to the threads on my 10-32 tap, t hey sure look similar. Why wouldn't one consider AN3 to be #10? Is this a " fetch a pail of propwash" question? On Mar 25, 2013, at 17:21, rayj wrote: > Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I pre fer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. I gave up my search an d ordered some #8 and #10 phillips round head screws. I'll probably stock up on #10 terminals and use them for all my ground connections. > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN. > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > On 03/25/2013 02:38 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> At 01:08 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: >>> My thoughts also. I've been looking for some #10 (an2?) "blessed" faste ners without much luck. Anyone know a good source. An3 seems like overkill for a grounding wire. >> >> Consider the effects of scale. In the case for >> grounding a fuel level sensor (22AWG wires?) >> and milliamps of current, #6 hardware is >> certainly robust enough to the task. The >> larger fasteners come into play when you're >> wanting to increase the gas-tight contact >> area for the purpose of carrying lots of current. >> For example, taking a battery(-) to structure >> would certainly benefit from the capabilities of >> #10 or even .25 hardware to put the super-mash >> on the terminals. >> >> Cessna's rule of thumb was for #8 hardware >> probably sufficed for most appliances. The >> occasional device (landing gear hydraulic pumps >> for example) would give pause to consider something >> larger. Milliamp loads would be fine with #6. >> >> The question that launched this thread called >> for considering the long term performance of >> a rivet to provide axial pressures on made-up >> parts. I think the consensus was that rivets >> are problematic but appropriately sized threaded >> fasteners were always appropriate. >> >> Bob . . . >> >> >> >> > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2013
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
AN bolts have rolled threads...if you have a "normal" tap you will CUT threads into the bolt, weakening it, causing bolt shaft weakness and potential fracture points: www.bhamfast.com/pdfs/bhamfast_rtct.pdf Harley ----------------------------------------------------------------- On 3/25/2013 5:57 PM, Jared Yates wrote: > When I compare the threads on my AN3 bolts to the threads on my > 10-32 tap, they sure look similar. Why wouldn't one consider > AN3 to be #10? Is this a "fetch a pail of propwash" question? > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Both fasteners have a thread pitch of 32 threads per inch. The difference lies in the diameter. An AN3 bolt has a major diameter of 0.375 inches. A #10 diameter fastener has a major diameter of 0.190 inches. Compare an AN3-6A bolt to an AN 526-10R12 screw. Both are approximately3/4 of an inch long and have 32 threads per inch on the threaded portion. As someone else mentioned AN/MS/NAS threads are all rolled threads, which are formed by deforming the blank shaft. Nomaterial is removed. Many other threads are made by cutting away material. Threads of the same size can be formed using either method. Hope this information is useful. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/25/2013 04:57 PM, Jared Yates wrote: > When I compare the threads on my AN3 bolts to the threads on my 10-32 > tap, they sure look similar. Why wouldn't one consider AN3 to be #10? > Is this a "fetch a pail of propwash" question? > > > On Mar 25, 2013, at 17:21, rayj > wrote: > >> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head boltsbecause I >> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. I gave up my >> search and ordered some #8 and #10 phillips round head screws. I'll >> probably stock up on #10 terminals and use them for all my ground >> connections. >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN. >> >> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >> On 03/25/2013 02:38 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>> At 01:08 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: >>>> My thoughts also. I've been looking for some #10 (an2?) "blessed" >>>> fasteners without much luck. Anyone know a good source. An3 seems >>>> like overkill for a grounding wire. >>> >>> Consider the effects of scale. In the case for >>> grounding a fuel level sensor (22AWG wires?) >>> and milliamps of current, #6 hardware is >>> certainly robust enough to the task. The >>> larger fasteners come into play when you're >>> wanting to increase the gas-tight contact >>> area for the purpose of carrying lots of current. >>> For example, taking a battery(-) to structure >>> would certainly benefit from the capabilities of >>> #10 or even .25 hardware to put the super-mash >>> on the terminals. >>> >>> Cessna's rule of thumb was for #8 hardware >>> probably sufficed for most appliances. The >>> occasional device (landing gear hydraulic pumps >>> for example) would give pause to consider something >>> larger. Milliamp loads would be fine with #6. >>> >>> The question that launched this thread called >>> for considering the long term performance of >>> a rivet to provide axial pressures on made-up >>> parts. I think the consensus was that rivets >>> are problematic but appropriately sized threaded >>> fasteners were always appropriate. >>> >>> Bob . . . >>> >>> * >>> >>> >>> * >> >> * >> >> >> * > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
Date: Mar 25, 2013
Say again please? I think .375 is more like the AN3 wrench size if we are t alking about the same thing. On Mar 25, 2013, at 19:31, rayj wrote: > Both fasteners have a thread pitch of 32 threads per inch. The difference lies in the diameter. > > An AN3 bolt has a major diameter of 0.375 inches. > > A #10 diameter fastener has a major diameter of 0.190 inches. > > Compare an AN3-6A bolt to an AN 526-10R12 screw. Both are approximately 3 /4 of an inch long and have 32 threads per inch on the threaded portion. > > As someone else mentioned AN/MS/NAS threads are all rolled threads, which a re formed by deforming the blank shaft. No material is removed. Many other threads are made b y cutting away material. Threads of the same size can be formed using either method. > > Hope this information is useful. > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN. > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > On 03/25/2013 04:57 PM, Jared Yates wrote: >> When I compare the threads on my AN3 bolts to the threads on my 10-32 tap , they sure look similar. Why wouldn't one consider AN3 to be #10? Is this a "fetch a pail of propwash" question? >> >> >> >> On Mar 25, 2013, at 17:21, rayj wrote: >> >>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I p refer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. I gave up my search a nd ordered some #8 and #10 phillips round head screws. I'll probably stock u p on #10 terminals and use them for all my ground connections. >>> Raymond Julian >>> Kettle River, MN. >>> >>> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >>> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >>> On 03/25/2013 02:38 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>>> At 01:08 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: >>>>> My thoughts also. I've been looking for some #10 (an2?) "blessed" fasteners without much luck. Anyone know a good source. An3 s eems like overkill for a grounding wire. >>>> >>>> Consider the effects of scale. In the case for >>>> grounding a fuel level sensor (22AWG wires?) >>>> and milliamps of current, #6 hardware is >>>> certainly robust enough to the task. The >>>> larger fasteners come into play when you're >>>> wanting to increase the gas-tight contact >>>> area for the purpose of carrying lots of current. >>>> For example, taking a battery(-) to structure >>>> would certainly benefit from the capabilities of >>>> #10 or even .25 hardware to put the super-mash >>>> on the terminals. >>>> >>>> Cessna's rule of thumb was for #8 hardware >>>> probably sufficed for most appliances. The >>>> occasional device (landing gear hydraulic pumps >>>> for example) would give pause to consider something >>>> larger. Milliamp loads would be fine with #6. >>>> >>>> The question that launched this thread called >>>> for considering the long term performance of >>>> a rivet to provide axial pressures on made-up >>>> parts. I think the consensus was that rivets >>>> are problematic but appropriately sized threaded >>>> fasteners were always appropriate. >>>> >>>> Bob . . . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
At 04:57 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: >When I compare the threads on my AN3 bolts to the threads on my >10-32 tap, they sure look similar. Why wouldn't one consider AN3 to >be #10? Is this a "fetch a pail of propwash" question? See: http://www.coastfab.com/images/pdf/2010/bolts_an3_an10.pdf AN-X hardware is a very old specification that dates back to a time when the numbers actually meant something. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2013
From: Paul Thomson <cyav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
The info I have says a #10 screw has a nominal diameter of 0.190 inches, wh ile an AN3 bolt is 0.1875 inches, both with 32 treads per inch.=0A=0ARight or wrong I just always treated them as interchangeable, or am I missing som ething here?=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Jar ed Yates =0ATo: "aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com" =0ASent: Monday, March 25, 2013 6:52 PM=0ASu bject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?=0A =0A=0AS ay again please? -I think .375 is more like the AN3 wrench size if we are talking about the same thing.=0A=0A=0AOn Mar 25, 2013, at 19:31, rayj wrote:=0A=0A=0ABoth fasteners have a thread pitch of 32 threads per inch.- The difference lies in the diameter.=0A>=0A>An AN3 bolt has a major diameter of 0.375 inches.=0A>=0A>A #10 diameter fastener has a major diameter of 0.190 inches.=0A>=0A>Compare an AN3-6A bolt to an A N 526-10R12 screw.- Both are approximately3/4 of an inch long and have 32 threads per inch on the threaded portion.=0A>=0A>As someone else mentioned AN/MS/NAS threads are all rolled threads, which are formed by deforming th e blank shaft. Nomaterial is removed.- Many other threads are made by cut ting away material.- Threads of the same size can be formed using either method.=0A>-=0A>Hope this information is useful. =0A>=0A>Raymond Julian =0AKettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more frie nds,=0Aand all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine =0AOn 03 /25/2013 04:57 PM, Jared Yates wrote:=0A>=0A>When I compare the threads on my AN3 bolts to the threads on my 10-32 tap, they sure look similar. Why wo uldn't one consider AN3 to be #10? -Is this a "fetch a pail of propwash" question?=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>On Mar 25, 2013, at 17:21, rayj wrote:=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Agreed.- I was looking for so me "blessed" #10 hex head boltsbecause I prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads.- I gave up my search and ordered some #8 and #10 ph illips round head screws. I'll probably stock up on #10 terminals and use t hem for all my ground connections.=0A>>>=0A>>>Raymond Julian=0AKettle River , MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,=0Aand all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine =0AOn 03/25/2013 02:38 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:=0A>>>=0A>>>At 01:08 PM 3/25/2013, you wr ote:=0A>>>>=0A>>>>My thoughts also.- I've been looking for some #10 (an2? ) "blessed" fasteners without much luck.- Anyone know a good source.- A n3 seems like overkill for a grounding wire. =0A>>>>-- Consider the eff ects of scale. In the case for=0A>>>>-- grounding a fuel level sensor ( 22AWG wires?)=0A>>>>-- and milliamps of current, #6 hardware is=0A>>>> -- certainly robust enough to the task. The=0A>>>>-- larger fastene rs come into play when you're=0A>>>>-- wanting to increase the gas-tigh t contact=0A>>>>-- area for the purpose of carrying lots of current.=0A >>>>-- For example, taking a battery(-) to structure=0A>>>>-- would certainly benefit from the capabilities of=0A>>>>-- #10 or even .25 ha rdware to put the super-mash=0A>>>>-- on the terminals.=0A>>>>=0A>>>> -- Cessna's rule of thumb was for #8 hardware=0A>>>>-- probably suf ficed for most appliances. The=0A>>>>-- occasional device (landing gear hydraulic pumps=0A>>>>-- for example) would give pause to consider som ething=0A>>>>-- larger. Milliamp loads would be fine with #6.=0A>>>>=0A >>>>-- The question that launched this thread called=0A>>>>-- for c onsidering the long term performance of=0A>>>>-- a rivet to provide axi al pressures on made-up=0A>>>>-- parts.- I think the consensus was th at rivets=0A>>>>-- are problematic but appropriately sized threaded=0A> >>>-- fasteners were always appropriate.=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>- Bob . =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
You are both correct. My mistake. I was thinking diameterof an an3 was 3/8 not 3/16. Boydo I feel dumb. My apologiesgentlemen. Itransposed which dimension is measured in 1/16ths and which is measured in 1/8ths. Now if I can only find out how take it out of the archive. :>) Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/25/2013 07:06 PM, Ben Haas wrote: > > Agreed........ > > AN-3 is around .187"... NOT .375" > > ============DNA removed by Raymond Julian========== > > > Ben Haas > N801BH > www.haaspowerair.com > > ---------- Original Message ---------- > From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> > To: "aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com" > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? > Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 19:52:04 -0400 > > Say again please? I think .375 is more like the AN3 wrench size if we > are talking about the same thing. > > On Mar 25, 2013, at 19:31, rayj > wrote: > >> Both fasteners have a thread pitch of 32 threads per inch. The >> difference lies in the diameter. >> >> An AN3 bolt has a major diameter of 0.375 inches. >> >> A #10 diameter fastener has a major diameter of 0.190 inches. >> >> Compare an AN3-6A bolt to an AN 526-10R12 screw. Both are >> approximately3/4 of an inch long and have 32 threads per inch on the >> threaded portion. >> >> As someone else mentioned AN/MS/NAS threads are all rolled threads, >> which are formed by deforming the blank shaft. Nomaterial is removed. >> Many other threads are made by cutting away material. Threads of the >> same size can be formed using either method. >> >> Hope this information is useful. >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN. >> >> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >> On 03/25/2013 04:57 PM, Jared Yates wrote: >>> When I compare the threads on my AN3 bolts to the threads on my >>> 10-32 tap, they sure look similar. Why wouldn't one consider AN3 to >>> be #10? Is this a "fetch a pail of propwash" question? >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 25, 2013, at 17:21, rayj >> > wrote: >>> >>>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head boltsbecause >>>> I prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. I gave >>>> up my search and ordered some #8 and #10 phillips round head >>>> screws. I'll probably stock up on #10 terminals and use them for >>>> all my ground connections. >>>> Raymond Julian >>>> Kettle River, MN. >>>> >>>> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >>>> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >>>> On 03/25/2013 02:38 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>>>> At 01:08 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: >>>>>> My thoughts also. I've been looking for some #10 (an2?) >>>>>> "blessed" fasteners without much luck. Anyone know a good >>>>>> source. An3 seems like overkill for a grounding wire. >>>>> >>>>> Consider the effects of scale. In the case for >>>>> grounding a fuel level sensor (22AWG wires?) >>>>> and milliamps of current, #6 hardware is >>>>> certainly robust enough to the task. The >>>>> larger fasteners come into play when you're >>>>> wanting to increase the gas-tight contact >>>>> area for the purpose of carrying lots of current. >>>>> For example, taking a battery(-) to structure >>>>> would certainly benefit from the capabilities of >>>>> #10 or even .25 hardware to put the super-mash >>>>> on the terminals. >>>>> >>>>> Cessna's rule of thumb was for #8 hardware >>>>> probably sufficed for most appliances. The >>>>> occasional device (landing gear hydraulic pumps >>>>> for example) would give pause to consider something >>>>> larger. Milliamp loads would be fine with #6. >>>>> >>>>> The question that launched this thread called >>>>> for considering the long term performance of >>>>> a rivet to provide axial pressures on made-up >>>>> parts. I think the consensus was that rivets >>>>> are problematic but appropriately sized threaded >>>>> fasteners were always appropriate. >>>>> >>>>> Bob . . . >>>>> >>>>> * >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> * >>>> >>>> * >>>> >>>> >>>> * >>> * >>> >>> >>> * >> >> * >> >> >> * > * > > ============================================= > 2http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"'>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ============================================= > 2http://forums.matronics.com%22">http://forums.matronics.com > ============================================= > 2http://www.matronics.com/contribution%22">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ============================================= > > * > > > ____________________________________________________________ > *1 Key Fat Loss Hormone?* > Doctor Reveals 1 Hormone Making You Fat & How To Banish It Now. > <http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3242/5150e6b5153766b460d0st01duc>RealDose.com > <http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3242/5150e6b5153766b460d0st01duc> > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gordon or Marge" <gcomfo(at)tc3net.com>
Subject: Wires in wing
Date: Mar 25, 2013
-----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rayj Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 5:30 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing Thanks for all the information and ideas on running wire through the wing. I have decided to go with cushioned adel clamps and run some lacing cord through for pulling wire at a later date. Thanks again for everyone's input. Neoprene grommets work just as well. Just drill and deburr the holes. You can pick your routing to your advantage. Just make sure they are not too small. Gordon Comfort N363GC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 26, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Wires in wing
I'll be running through existing lightening holesso grommets won't work inmy situation. Thanks for the idea. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/25/2013 09:52 PM, Gordon or Marge wrote: > Message > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf > Of *rayj > *Sent:* Monday, March 25, 2013 5:30 PM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing > > Thanks for all the information and ideas on running wire through > the wing. I have decided to go with cushioned adelclampsand run > some lacing cord through for pulling wire at a later date. > > Thanks again for everyone's input. > > Neoprene grommets work just as well. Just drill and deburr the holes. You can pick your routing to your advantage. Just make sure they are not too small. > > Gordon Comfort N363GC > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 26, 2013
From: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net>
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Ray checkout http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws Cheers Werner On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote: > Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I > prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
Date: Mar 26, 2013
I think I just realized the source of my confusion. When I read "hex head" I visualized the head of an AN bolt. Maybe instead we are talking about socket heads? On Mar 26, 2013, at 6:41, Werner Schneider wrote: > > Ray checkout http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm > > I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws > > Cheers Werner > > On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote: >> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I >> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Schertz" <wschertz(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Date: Mar 26, 2013
Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips Bill Schertz -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? Ray checkout http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws Cheers Werner On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote: > Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I > prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 26, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
You understood what I was saying correctly. Problem was,what I was saying was INCORRECT. The details of my mea culpa are in an earlier email. Thanks for taking the timeto point out my error. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/26/2013 06:47 AM, Jared Yates wrote: > > I think I just realized the source of my confusion. When I read "hex head" I visualized the head of an AN bolt. Maybe instead we are talking about socket heads? > > > On Mar 26, 2013, at 6:41, Werner Schneider wrote: > >> >> Ray checkout http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm >> >> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws >> >> Cheers Werner >> >> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote: >>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I >>> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 26, 2013
From: <rd2(at)dejazzd.com>
Subject: 12-24 to 5 V USB adapter mishap
Group- I bought this 12-24 V to iPhone/iPod/iPad/iPad2 adapter from ebay: http://tinyurl.com/cf3f3kj It is advertised and arrived clearly marked as "Input 12-24 V DC; Output 5 V / 3.1 A". Nice, professional finish and markings. Mine reads USAMS (probably manufacturers logo) and has 2 USB slots marked iPhone/iPod and iPad/iPad2, 3.1 A. Not so fast I though - still being a bit circumspect, I tried it with a 5 V LED light on a 24 V bus (engine not running) instead of enthusiastically plugging in my tablet :) . Glad I didnt ! - After a second or so there was a crackling sound, smoke, and the LED map light burned out. Now I have an adapter with 24 V in and 24 V out :) Shall we say you get what you pay for ? :) Anyone else with similar experience? Rumen ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 26, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. Definitely preferable to Phillips. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote: > > > Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much > nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips > Bill Schertz > > -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? > > > > Ray checkout http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm > > I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws > > Cheers Werner > > On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote: >> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I >> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 26, 2013
Subject: Re: 12-24 to 5 V USB adapter mishap
From: Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com>
Yup, you get what you pay for! I usually pay top dollar for devices like this for the very reasons exposed here! Once bitten...... Bob On 26 March 2013 14:36, wrote: > > > Group- > > I bought this 12-24 V to iPhone/iPod/iPad/iPad2 adapter from ebay: > http://tinyurl.com/cf3f3kj > > It is advertised and arrived clearly marked as "Input 12-24 V DC; Output 5 > V / 3.1 A". > Nice, professional finish and markings. Mine reads =93USAMS=94 (probably > manufacturer=92s logo) and has 2 USB slots marked iPhone/iPod and iPad/iP ad2, > 3.1 A. > > Not so fast I though - still being a bit circumspect, I tried it with a 5 > V LED light on a 24 V bus (engine not running) instead of enthusiasticall y > plugging in my tablet :) . Glad I didn=92t ! - > > After a second or so there was a crackling sound, smoke, and the LED map > light burned out. Now I have an adapter with 24 V in and 24 V out :) Sha ll > we say =93you get what you pay for=94 ? :) > > Anyone else with similar experience? > Rumen > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "CHARLES T BECKER" <ctbecker(at)atlanticbb.net>
Subject: Re: Wires in wing
Date: Mar 26, 2013
wing tip off, wing not yet installed. We were able to reach from both ends and through the inspection openings in the bottom of the wing. It would have been easier if I had the arms of an orangutan, as would many things in building an 8A, but the result was more than satisfactory. Hind sight being 20/20, I might choose to install it before I riveted the wings closed. :) Werner Schneider wrote: >Schneider > > Sorry, > > I did not get it you had a closed wing, I did these >before closing the wing. > > > On 25.03.2013 15:55, rayj wrote: >> I'm not sure how I would install the tie wrap inside a >>closed wing. > >Un/Subscription, >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >Forums! >Admin. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
From: Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 26, 2013
Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm w illing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun inten ded) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing f or the retail buyer. On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj wrote: > Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the ones I c hose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN scre ws. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefer ed it. Definitely preferable to Phillips. > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN. > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote: ast.net> >> >> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nice r for avoiding stripouts like phillips >> Bill Schertz >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider >> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM >> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? >> t> >> >> Ray checkout http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm >> >> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws >> >> Cheers Werner >> >> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote: >>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I >>> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wires in wing
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Mar 26, 2013
I find it remarkable that I am the only dinosaur who remembers these. There are very specific parts used to thread wires through lightening holes: Panduit Lightening Hole Mounting System, LHMS is what they are called. I used to sell them until Digikey started to. http://hqwww.panduit.com/panduit/groups/MPM-GAWA/documents/PartDrawing/086887.pdf They are really worth getting. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397082#397082 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 26, 2013
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Re: Wires in wing
On 3/26/2013 9:59 AM, Eric M. Jones wrote: > I find it remarkable that I am the only dinosaur who remembers these. I do as well, Eric...dinosaur? Not after seeing the picture you have on your website flying your ultramodern plane! Harley ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com>
Subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Date: Mar 26, 2013
Hello Sacha, I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US. Johannesburg Jay From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer. On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj wrote: Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. Definitely preferable to Phillips. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote: Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips Bill Schertz -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? Ray checkout http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws Cheers Werner On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote: Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Wires in wing
Date: Mar 26, 2013
Ray, My tubing came form Aircraft Spruce: Aluminum tube, =BE in dia, .035 wall, AC Part# 03-36150. PS ' I might use the Panduit conduit mounts that Eric recommended to support the tube on every-other rib _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rayj Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 10:04 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing Jeff, That is my 1st choice. Where did you get your thin wall aluminum. I've not been able to find anything that was the right combination of weight, stiffness/straightness, cost and diameter. Something like lawn furniture tubing only smaller dia. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/25/2013 12:36 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote: Bob, I considered using plastic/PVC plumbing tubing/pipe for the conduit in the wing of my RV-7A but rejected it based on the idea that combustion bi-products from those materials could be lethal. In the event of a fire, I might be rendered unconscious (or worse) before I even got a chance to fight the fire. Therefore I opted for some thin-wall aluminum tube. I=92m curious about what other =93listers=94 think. -Jeff _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 07:36 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing At 09:55 AM 3/25/2013, you wrote: I'm not sure how I would install the tie wrap inside a closed wing. Right now I'm leaning toward installing adel clamps with a piece of lacing cord strung through them. I think a 1/2 inch cushioned clamp should be large enough. Consider a plastic conduit in Adel clamps. The hardware stores stock a variety of water pipe in sizes down to 3/8". I think you'll find that the 3/8 is large enough to accept your wires . . . it's easy to test at the store . . . otherwise go up to 1/2". Here'a one example of many. http://tinyurl.com/cccad2q The stuff is light, cheap, smooth wall and 100% assurance for ease of installing wires at a later date. Bob . . . <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List <http://forums.matronics.com> http://forums.matronics.com <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff Luckey" <JLuckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Wires in wing
Date: Mar 26, 2013
Hey Eric, Do you have any recommendations for hardware for the ends of tubing/conduit in your bag-o-tricks? I want the aluminum tube to end at and attach to the root & tip ribs. I'm familiar w/ standard electrical conduit fittings, but the problem is that my tubing is .750 OD - not a standard dimension for EMT fittings. Any suggestions? -Jeff -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 05:59 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wires in wing I find it remarkable that I am the only dinosaur who remembers these. There are very specific parts used to thread wires through lightening holes: Panduit Lightening Hole Mounting System, LHMS is what they are called. I used to sell them until Digikey started to. http://hqwww.panduit.com/panduit/groups/MPM-GAWA/documents/PartDrawing/08688 7.pdf They are really worth getting. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397082#397082 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
From: Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 26, 2013
Echo that... It's a shame that our US friends (and hence much of the aviatio n world) is still stuck using that antiquated system... Metric seems so much more coherent. Anyway at the moment I'm presented with a situation which requires me to use metric which is why I'm asking the question. I've also been doing what you do (stainless for non structural, AN for the structural parts) but I am now presented with the following dilemma: For some reason the previous owner has drilled some 8mm holes and appears to have been using 8mm stainless bolts to fasten the wings of the Kitfox I'm r ebuilding. The original design calls for 5/16" diameter holes and AN5 bolts. But now I'm reluctant to use them because an AN5 bolt will be a bit loose ( 5/16" = 7.93mm) in an 8mm hole. On the other hand an M8 regular stainless b olt is not really strong enough. The best I've found so far is A4-80 a.k.a "strong stainless" which has a she ar strength of 800MPa (vs the 700MPa of regular stainless). Plugging in the n umbers gives a shear capacity of an M8 bolt as 800*8*8*pi/4= 40kN which is approx 9000 lb. This is still approx 20% below that of an AN5 bolt (11500l b). Hence my search for metric "aircraft grade" fasteners... Ok sorry for the rant and for straying OT. I thought I would try to use the v ast knowledge base if this group since I'm getting nowhere with Google... (j ust mentioning this in for you Eric...:) Sacha On Mar 26, 2013, at 15:25, "Jay Hyde" wrote: > Hello Sacha, > > I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I simpl y use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect a gainst corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close galva nic potentials as far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or ev en understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J > > For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not to o difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die=81c) ; I or der them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US. > > Johannesburg Jay > > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelect ric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha > Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? > > Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I' m willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun in tended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothi ng for the retail buyer. > > On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj wrote: > > Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the ones I c hose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN scre ws. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefer ed it. Definitely preferable to Phillips. > > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN. > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote: st.net> > > Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips > Bill Schertz > > -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? > > > > Ray checkout http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm > > I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws > > Cheers Werner > > On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote: > > Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I > prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Cole <LynnCole(at)foxvalley.net>
Subject: Re: Wires in wing
Date: Mar 26, 2013
I used exactly the same HDPE tubing purchased from McMaster in the wings of my Murphy Rebel Elite as Mr Wittington did in his Sportsman. It looks like it will have adequate capacity and work well, but I haven't attached the wings to the fuselage yet. ----- Lynn Cole N76426 1946 Cessna 140 Murphy Rebel Elite under construction LynnCole(at)foxvalley.net On Mar 25, 2013, at 2:45 PM, DeWitt Whittington wrote: > Ditto. We ran HDPE (High Density Polyethelyne) tubing through left and right wings in our Sportsman. Works well. Here are a couple of photos. > > We got it from McMaster-Carr. 50375 K534 HDPE tubing 3/4 OD x 5/8 ID x 1/16 wall > > Dee > > > On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Jay Hyde wrote: > If you were talking about wiring in your cockpit or fuselage I=92d agree; but if you have a fire in your wing I think that gasses are going to be one of your smaller worries=85. J > > > > Johannnesburg Jay > > > > > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Luckey > Sent: 25 March 2013 07:37 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing > > > > Bob, > > > > I considered using plastic/PVC plumbing tubing/pipe for the conduit in the wing of my RV-7A but rejected it based on the idea that combustion bi-products from those materials could be lethal. In the event of a fire, I might be rendered unconscious (or worse) before I even got a chance to fight the fire. > > > > Therefore I opted for some thin-wall aluminum tube. I=92m curious about what other =93listers=94 think. > > > > -Jeff > > > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III > Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 07:36 > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wires in wing > > > > At 09:55 AM 3/25/2013, you wrote: > > I'm not sure how I would install the tie wrap inside a closed wing. Right now I'm leaning toward installing adel clamps with a piece of lacing cord strung through them. I think a 1/2 inch cushioned clamp should be large enough. > > > Consider a plastic conduit in Adel clamps. The hardware stores > stock a variety of water pipe in sizes down to 3/8". I think you'll > find that the 3/8 is large enough to accept your wires . . . it's > easy to test at the store . . . otherwise go up to 1/2". Here'a > one example of many. > > http://tinyurl.com/cccad2q > > The stuff is light, cheap, smooth wall and 100% assurance for ease > of installing wires at a later date. > > > Bob . . . > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > http://forums.matronics.com > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > 03/23/13 > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > -- > DeWitt (Dee) Whittington > 804-677-4849 iPhone > 804-358-4333 Home > www.VirginiaFlyIn.org > Building Glasair Sportsman with 3 partners > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 26, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Sacha, The only suggestions I can think of are possibly sail boat hardware suppliers, or high performancemotor sports suppliers. Good luck on your search. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/26/2013 10:53 AM, Sacha wrote: > Echo that... It's a shame that our US friends (and hence much of the > aviation world) is still stuck using that antiquated system... Metric > seems so much more coherent. > > Anyway at the moment I'm presented with a situation which requires me > to use metric which is why I'm asking the question. I've also been > doing what you do (stainless for non structural, AN for the structural > parts) but I am now presented with the following dilemma: > > For some reason the previous owner has drilled some 8mm holes and > appears to have been using 8mm stainless bolts to fasten the wings of > the Kitfox I'm rebuilding. The original design calls for 5/16" > diameter holes and AN5 bolts. But now I'm reluctant to use them > because an AN5 bolt will be a bit loose (5/16" = 7.93mm) in an 8mm > hole. On the other hand an M8 regular stainless bolt is not really > strong enough. > > The best I've found so far is A4-80 a.k.a "strong stainless" which has > a shear strength of 800MPa (vs the 700MPa of regular stainless). > Plugging in the numbers gives a shear capacity of an M8 bolt as > 800*8*8*pi/4= 40kN which is approx 9000 lb. This is still approx 20% > below that of an AN5 bolt (11500lb). Hence my search for metric > "aircraft grade" fasteners... > > Ok sorry for the rant and for straying OT. I thought I would try to > use the vast knowledge base if this group since I'm getting nowhere > with Google... (just mentioning this in for you Eric...:) > > Sacha > > On Mar 26, 2013, at 15:25, "Jay Hyde" > wrote: > >> Hello Sacha, >> >> I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I >> simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones >> to protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have >> relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have >> given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut >> and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and >> ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J >> >> For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are >> not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or >> die...) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US. >> >> Johannesburg Jay >> >> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com >> >> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of >> *Sacha >> *Sent:* 26 March 2013 03:58 PM >> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >> >> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? >> >> Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and >> where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in >> Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've >> been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can >> only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer. >> >> >> On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj > > wrote: >> >> Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the >> ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big >> assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an stuff >> with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. Definitely >> preferable to Phillips. >> >> Raymond Julian >> >> Kettle River, MN. >> >> >> >> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >> >> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >> >> On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote: >> >> >> >> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx >> drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips >> Bill Schertz >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider >> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM >> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >> >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to >> airframe? >> >> >> >> Ray checkout >> http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm >> >> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws >> >> Cheers Werner >> >> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote: >> >> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts >> because I >> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> * * >> >> * * >> >> * * >> >> * * >> * * >> ** >> ** >> ** >> ** >> ** >> ** >> ** >> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List* >> ** >> ** >> ** >> ** >> ** >> *http://forums.matronics.com* >> ** >> ** >> ** >> ** >> ** >> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* >> ** >> * * >> * >> >> ================================== >> st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ================================== >> cs.com >> ================================== >> matronics.com/contribution >> ================================== >> >> * > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 26, 2013
From: GERRY VAN%20DYK <gerry.vandyk(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Sacha, h ave a look at Unbrako products.=C2- http://unbrako.com/ =C2- T hey're primarily socket head cap screws, both imperial and metric , all wi th rolled threads and I believe they're the highest quality fasteners for i ndustrial use.=C2- You can download they're engineering guide to research how they compare to AN for strength and ductility, hopefully they're up to par on corrosion resistance as well.=C2- They're European base is in Ire land, I imagine their products should be available at industrial suppliers. Gerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sacha" <uuccio(at)gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:53:55 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? Echo that... It's a shame that our US friends (and hence much of the aviati on world) is still stuck using that antiquated system... Metric seems so mu ch more coherent.=C2- Anyway at the moment I'm presented with a situation which requires me to us e metric which is why I'm asking the question. =C2-I've also been doing w hat you do (stainless for non structural, AN for the structural parts) but I am now presented with the following dilemma: For some reason the previous owner has drilled some 8mm holes and appears t o have been using 8mm stainless bolts to fasten the wings of the Kitfox I'm rebuilding. The original design calls for 5/16" diameter holes and AN5 bol ts. But now I'm reluctant to use them because an AN5 bolt will be a bit loo se (5/16" = 7.93mm) in an 8mm hole. On the other hand an M8 regular stain less bolt is not really strong enough.=C2- The best I've found so far is A4-80 a.k.a "strong stainless" which has a sh ear strength of 800MPa (vs the 700MPa of regular stainless). Plugging in th e numbers gives a shear capacity of an M8 bolt as 800*8*8*pi/4= 40kN whic h is approx 9000 lb. =C2-This is still approx 20% below that of an AN5 bo lt (11500lb). Hence my search for metric "aircraft grade" fasteners... Ok sorry for the rant and for straying OT. I thought I would try to use the vast knowledge base if this group since I'm getting nowhere with Google... (just mentioning this in for you Eric...:) Sacha=C2- On Mar 26, 2013, at 15:25, "Jay Hyde" < jay(at)horriblehyde.com > wrote: Hello Sacha, =C2- I have the same problem in South Africa.=C2- For non structural parts I s imply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to prot ect against corrosion.=C2- Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see.=C2- I have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M 6 nuts.=C2- J =C2- For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US. =C2- Johannesburg Jay =C2- =C2- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [ mailto:owner-aeroelect ric-list-server(at)matronics.com ] On Behalf Of Sacha Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? =C2- Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some? =C2-I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, thou gh I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers , nothing for the retail buyer.=C2- On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj < raymondj(at)frontiernet.net > wrote:
Looks like a great source for fasteners.=C2- I wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN screws.=C2- If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it.=C2- Definitely preferable to Phillips. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. =C2- "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - Jo hn Prine On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
t.net> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips Bill Schertz -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? Ray checkout http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws Cheers Werner On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote: Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-
=C2- =C2- http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://f orums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution =C2- === ====== st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ====== === cs.com ====================== ============ matronics.com/contribution ================ ===================
=== ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: Mar 26, 2013
Sacha, Normally, I'd suggest that you simply go up one size to AN6 hardware. Cost a tiny bit in weight but is easy to do and the hardware is readily available through Spruce and other suppliers. If you feel you must stay with metric hardware, you can try McMaster-Carr ( mcmaster.com ) for high-strength steel metric bolts. They have class 10.9 bolts with a structural rating of 150,000 psi or greater. They are even available partially threaded with a Zinc-Chromate finish just like good AN hardware. Go to their web site, select fasteners then select screws. Next, from the left hand column you can select metric and the size, M8. You will have to decide if these are strong enough to meet your needs. Good luck. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On Mar 26, 2013, at 10:53 AM, Sacha wrote: Echo that... It's a shame that our US friends (and hence much of the aviation world) is still stuck using that antiquated system... Metric seems so much more coherent. Anyway at the moment I'm presented with a situation which requires me to use metric which is why I'm asking the question. I've also been doing what you do (stainless for non structural, AN for the structural parts) but I am now presented with the following dilemma: For some reason the previous owner has drilled some 8mm holes and appears to have been using 8mm stainless bolts to fasten the wings of the Kitfox I'm rebuilding. The original design calls for 5/16" diameter holes and AN5 bolts. But now I'm reluctant to use them because an AN5 bolt will be a bit loose (5/16" = 7.93mm) in an 8mm hole. On the other hand an M8 regular stainless bolt is not really strong enough. The best I've found so far is A4-80 a.k.a "strong stainless" which has a shear strength of 800MPa (vs the 700MPa of regular stainless). Plugging in the numbers gives a shear capacity of an M8 bolt as 800*8*8*pi/4= 40kN which is approx 9000 lb. This is still approx 20% below that of an AN5 bolt (11500lb). Hence my search for metric "aircraft grade" fasteners... Ok sorry for the rant and for straying OT. I thought I would try to use the vast knowledge base if this group since I'm getting nowhere with Google... (just mentioning this in for you Eric...:) Sacha ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lynn Cole <LynnCole(at)foxvalley.net>
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Date: Mar 26, 2013
Sacha, The approved method for using ANx bolts for critical items like wing and strut or horizontal stab attachments is to drill the holes undersized and use an adjustable reamer to ream the holes to a tight fit for the bolts. The reamed hole will be undersized by 0.001-0.003 inches compared to the nominal size of the bolt. ----- Lynn Cole LynnCole(at)foxvalley.net On Mar 26, 2013, at 10:53 AM, Sacha wrote: > Echo that... It's a shame that our US friends (and hence much of the aviation world) is still stuck using that antiquated system... Metric seems so much more coherent. > > Anyway at the moment I'm presented with a situation which requires me to use metric which is why I'm asking the question. I've also been doing what you do (stainless for non structural, AN for the structural parts) but I am now presented with the following dilemma: > > For some reason the previous owner has drilled some 8mm holes and appears to have been using 8mm stainless bolts to fasten the wings of the Kitfox I'm rebuilding. The original design calls for 5/16" diameter holes and AN5 bolts. But now I'm reluctant to use them because an AN5 bolt will be a bit loose (5/16" = 7.93mm) in an 8mm hole. On the other hand an M8 regular stainless bolt is not really strong enough. > > The best I've found so far is A4-80 a.k.a "strong stainless" which has a shear strength of 800MPa (vs the 700MPa of regular stainless). Plugging in the numbers gives a shear capacity of an M8 bolt as 800*8*8*pi/4= 40kN which is approx 9000 lb. This is still approx 20% below that of an AN5 bolt (11500lb). Hence my search for metric "aircraft grade" fasteners... > > Ok sorry for the rant and for straying OT. I thought I would try to use the vast knowledge base if this group since I'm getting nowhere with Google... (just mentioning this in for you Eric...:) > > Sacha > > On Mar 26, 2013, at 15:25, "Jay Hyde" wrote: > >> Hello Sacha, >> >> I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J >> >> For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die=85) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US. >> >> Johannesburg Jay >> >> >> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha >> Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM >> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? >> >> Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer. >> >> On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj wrote: >> >> Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. Definitely preferable to Phillips. >> >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN. >> >> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >> On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote: >> >> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips >> Bill Schertz >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider >> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM >> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? >> >> >> Ray checkout http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm >> >> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws >> >> Cheers Werner >> >> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote: >> >> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I >> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> <="" span=""> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> <="" span=""> >> <="" span=""> >> http://forums.matronics.com >> <="" span=""> >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> >> >> ======================== >> st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ======================== >> cs.com >> ======================== >> matronics.com/contribution >> ======================== >> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 26, 2013
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
From: Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com>
Robert, agree with you. Lets not loose sight of the fact that an AN bolt has "grip" and a relatively short thread. This is by far the most convenient feature, because with other fasteners you will end up cutting off excess thread, and you will have to go and measure for yourself what the grip is. Hardware is a fraction of the weight or cost of the project. Straying from aircraft hardware will cost you lots of time. Also, aircraft bolts are "tough", and will bend long before they break. And they are corrosion protected with no danger of hydrogen embrittlement, and ....the list goes on..... Bob Verwey Bonanza ZU-DLW Safari ZU-AJF On 26 March 2013 18:57, Robert Borger wrote: > Sacha, > > Normally, I'd suggest that you simply go up one size to AN6 hardware. > Cost a tiny bit in weight but is easy to do and the hardware is readily > available through Spruce and other suppliers. > > If you feel you must stay with metric hardware, you can try McMaster-Carr > ( mcmaster.com ) for high-strength steel metric bolts. They have class > 10.9 bolts with a structural rating of 150,000 psi or greater. They are > even available partially threaded with a Zinc-Chromate finish just like > good AN hardware. Go to their web site, select fasteners then select > screws. Next, from the left hand column you can select metric and the > size, M8. > > You will have to decide if these are strong enough to meet your needs. > > Good luck. > > Blue skies & tailwinds, > Bob Borger > Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. > Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP > 3705 Lynchburg Dr. > Corinth, TX 76208-5331 > Cel: 817-992-1117 > rlborger(at)mac.com > > On Mar 26, 2013, at 10:53 AM, Sacha wrote: > > Echo that... It's a shame that our US friends (and hence much of the > aviation world) is still stuck using that antiquated system... Metric seems > so much more coherent. > > Anyway at the moment I'm presented with a situation which requires me to > use metric which is why I'm asking the question. I've also been doing what > you do (stainless for non structural, AN for the structural parts) but I am > now presented with the following dilemma: > > For some reason the previous owner has drilled some 8mm holes and appears > to have been using 8mm stainless bolts to fasten the wings of the Kitfox > I'm rebuilding. The original design calls for 5/16" diameter holes and AN5 > bolts. But now I'm reluctant to use them because an AN5 bolt will be a bit > loose (5/16" = 7.93mm) in an 8mm hole. On the other hand an M8 regular > stainless bolt is not really strong enough. > > The best I've found so far is A4-80 a.k.a "strong stainless" which has a > shear strength of 800MPa (vs the 700MPa of regular stainless). Plugging in > the numbers gives a shear capacity of an M8 bolt as 800*8*8*pi/4= 40kN > which is approx 9000 lb. This is still approx 20% below that of an AN5 > bolt (11500lb). Hence my search for metric "aircraft grade" fasteners... > > Ok sorry for the rant and for straying OT. I thought I would try to use > the vast knowledge base if this group since I'm getting nowhere with > Google... (just mentioning this in for you Eric...:) > > Sacha > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com>
Subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe? AN Bolts
Date: Mar 26, 2013
Hello again Sacha, Yep you are correct; the US is capable of producing remarkable feats of engineering- even more so when you consider the horrible measurement systems that they use! ;-) How about drilling the hole larger, to say a 10mm hole and then bushing it with a 10mm OD and 5/16th (7.94mm) ID mild steel insert? Jay From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha Sent: 26 March 2013 05:54 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? Echo that... It's a shame that our US friends (and hence much of the aviation world) is still stuck using that antiquated system... Metric seems so much more coherent. Anyway at the moment I'm presented with a situation which requires me to use metric which is why I'm asking the question. I've also been doing what you do (stainless for non structural, AN for the structural parts) but I am now presented with the following dilemma: For some reason the previous owner has drilled some 8mm holes and appears to have been using 8mm stainless bolts to fasten the wings of the Kitfox I'm rebuilding. The original design calls for 5/16" diameter holes and AN5 bolts. But now I'm reluctant to use them because an AN5 bolt will be a bit loose (5/16" = 7.93mm) in an 8mm hole. On the other hand an M8 regular stainless bolt is not really strong enough. The best I've found so far is A4-80 a.k.a "strong stainless" which has a shear strength of 800MPa (vs the 700MPa of regular stainless). Plugging in the numbers gives a shear capacity of an M8 bolt as 800*8*8*pi/4= 40kN which is approx 9000 lb. This is still approx 20% below that of an AN5 bolt (11500lb). Hence my search for metric "aircraft grade" fasteners... Ok sorry for the rant and for straying OT. I thought I would try to use the vast knowledge base if this group since I'm getting nowhere with Google... (just mentioning this in for you Eric...:) Sacha On Mar 26, 2013, at 15:25, "Jay Hyde" wrote: Hello Sacha, I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US. Johannesburg Jay From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer. On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj wrote: Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. Definitely preferable to Phillips. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote: Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips Bill Schertz -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? Ray checkout http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws Cheers Werner On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote: Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. <="" span=""> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List <="" span=""> <="" span=""> http://forums.matronics.com <="" span=""> http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========= st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ========= cs.com ========= matronics.com/contribution ========= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 26, 2013
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
From: Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com>
Hello Sacha... The quick answer is there are no AN metric fasteners... The US military never adopted the metric system so all are US ANSI standard sizes. That said acceptable metric equivalents can be found. Stainless Steel Stainless steel is a family of iron-based alloys that must contain at least 10.5% chromium. The presence of chromium creates an invisible surface film that resists oxidation and makes the material =9Cpassive=9D or corrosion resistant. Other elements, such as nickel or molybdenum are added to increase corrosion resistance, strength or heat resistance. Stainless steels can be simply and logically divided into three classes on the basis of their microstructure; austenitic, martensitic or ferritic. Each of these classes has specific properties and basic grade or =9Ctype.=9D Also, further alloy modifications can be made to alter the chemical composition to meet the needs of different corrosion conditions, temperature ranges, strength requirements, or to improve weldability, machinability, work hardening and formability. Austenitic stainless steels contain higher amounts of chromium and nickel than the other types. They are not hardenable by heat treatment and offer a high degree of corrosion resistance. Primarily, they are nonmagnetic; however, some parts may become slightly magnetic after cold working. The tensile strength of austenitic stainless steel varies from 75,000 to 105,000 psi. 18-8 Stainless steel is a type of austenitic stainless steel that contains approximately 18% chromium and 8% nickel. Grades of stainless steel in the 18-8 series include, but not limited to; 302, 303, 304 and XM7. Alloy Steels Carbon steel can be classified as an alloy steel when the manganese content exceeds 1.65%, when silicon or copper exceeds 0.60% or when chromium is less then 4%. Carbon steel can also be classified as an alloy if a specified minimum content of aluminum, titanium, vanadium, nickel or any other element has been added to achieve specific results. Additions of chromium, nickel and molybdenum improve the capacity of the alloys to be heat treated, giving rise to a wide variety of strength to ductility combinations. SAE J429 Grade 8, ASTM A354 Grade BD, ASTM A490, ASTM A193 B7 are all common examples of alloy steel fasteners. ASTM A193 B7 =A2 Tensile Strength: 125,000 PSI minimum (2-1/2-inch and under) =A2 Yield Strength: 105,000 PSI minimum (2-1/2-inch and under) =A2 Hardness: HRC 35 Maximum SAE J429 Grade 8 =A2 Tensile Strength: 150,000 PSI minimum =A2 Proof Strength: 120,000 PSI =A2 Yield Strength: 130,000 PSI minimum =A2 Hardness: HRC 33-39 ASTM A574 Socket Head Cap Screw =A2 Tensile Strength: 180,000 PSI minimum (through =C2=BD=9D), 170,000 PSI minimum (above =C2=BD=9D) =A2 Proof Strength: 140,000 PSI (through =C2=BD=9D), 135,000 PS I (above =C2=BD=9D) =A2 Yield Strength: 153,000 PSI minimum =A2 Hardness: HRC 39-45 (through =C2=BD=9D), HRC 37-45 (above =C2=BD=9D) Metric Grade 8 hardware: http://metric-threaded.com/items.aspx?category=Inch%20Hex%20Head%20Bolt%2 0Grade%208%20Zinc%20Yellow&id=7306 Chris Stone RV-8 Newberg, OR On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 8:53 AM, Sacha wrote: > Echo that... It's a shame that our US friends (and hence much of the > aviation world) is still stuck using that antiquated system... Metric see ms > so much more coherent. > > Anyway at the moment I'm presented with a situation which requires me to > use metric which is why I'm asking the question. I've also been doing wh at > you do (stainless for non structural, AN for the structural parts) but I am > now presented with the following dilemma: > > For some reason the previous owner has drilled some 8mm holes and appears > to have been using 8mm stainless bolts to fasten the wings of the Kitfox > I'm rebuilding. The original design calls for 5/16" diameter holes and AN 5 > bolts. But now I'm reluctant to use them because an AN5 bolt will be a bi t > loose (5/16" = 7.93mm) in an 8mm hole. On the other hand an M8 regular > stainless bolt is not really strong enough. > > The best I've found so far is A4-80 a.k.a "strong stainless" which has a > shear strength of 800MPa (vs the 700MPa of regular stainless). Plugging i n > the numbers gives a shear capacity of an M8 bolt as 800*8*8*pi/4= 40kN > which is approx 9000 lb. This is still approx 20% below that of an AN5 > bolt (11500lb). Hence my search for metric "aircraft grade" fasteners... > > Ok sorry for the rant and for straying OT. I thought I would try to use > the vast knowledge base if this group since I'm getting nowhere with > Google... (just mentioning this in for you Eric...:) > > Sacha > > On Mar 26, 2013, at 15:25, "Jay Hyde" wrote: > > Hello Sacha,**** > > ** ** > > I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I > simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to > protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively > close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have given up trying to > source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; i ts > far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 > nuts. J**** > > ** ** > > For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not > too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die ) ; I > order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.**** > > ** ** > > Johannesburg Jay**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [ > mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] > *On Behalf Of *Sacha > *Sent:* 26 March 2013 03:58 PM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?**** > > ** ** > > Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and wher e > I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though > I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no p un > intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, > nothing for the retail buyer. **** > > > On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj wrote:**** > > Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the ones I > chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN > screws. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have > prefered it. Definitely preferable to Phillips. > > **** > > Raymond Julian**** > > Kettle River, MN.**** > > ** ** > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,**** > > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine **** > > On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:**** > > > > Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nice r > for avoiding stripouts like phillips > Bill Schertz > > -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? > > > > Ray checkout http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm > > I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws > > Cheers Werner > > On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote: > > **** > > Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I > prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. **** > > > **** > > ** ** > > * * > > * * > > * * > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > > ======================== > st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ======================== ===========cs.com > ======================== ===========matronics.com/contribution > ======================== > * > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 26, 2013
From: Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Subject: Re: 12-24 to 5 V USB adapter mishap
Would this be useful? http://www.dimensionengineering.com/products/de-swadj3 Peter On 26/03/2013 12:47, Bob Verwey wrote: > Yup, you get what you pay for! > I usually pay top dollar for devices like this for the very reasons > exposed here! > Once bitten...... > Bob > > > On 26 March 2013 14:36, > wrote: > > > > > > Group- > > I bought this 12-24 V to iPhone/iPod/iPad/iPad2 adapter from ebay: > http://tinyurl.com/cf3f3kj > > It is advertised and arrived clearly marked as "Input 12-24 V DC; > Output 5 V / 3.1 A". > Nice, professional finish and markings. Mine reads USAMS > (probably manufacturers logo) and has 2 USB slots marked > iPhone/iPod and iPad/iPad2, 3.1 A. > > Not so fast I though - still being a bit circumspect, I tried it > with a 5 V LED light on a 24 V bus (engine not running) instead of > enthusiastically plugging in my tablet :) . Glad I didnt ! - > > After a second or so there was a crackling sound, smoke, and the > LED map light burned out. Now I have an adapter with 24 V in and > 24 V out :) Shall we say you get what you pay for ? :) > > Anyone else with similar experience? > Rumen > > > ========== > -List" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 26, 2013
From: Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Sacha, There is no metric equivalent to AN fasteners, different manufacturers seem to use different standards of hardware. Find your local Piper or Cessna supply house - or the mechanic at your local airfield - as they will surely have a good supply of AN hardware. In the UK LAS Aerospace have a good supply, but shipping is expensive to continental Europe. Alternatively you could try A/C Spruce as they have a reasonable network of suppliers throughout Europe. Peter On 26/03/2013 13:57, Sacha wrote: > Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and > where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in > Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've > been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can only > find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer. > > On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj > wrote: > >> Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the >> ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment >> of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe >> recess, I would have prefered it. Definitely preferable to Phillips. >> Raymond Julian >> Kettle River, MN. >> >> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, >> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine >> On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote: >>> >>> >>> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much >>> nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips >>> Bill Schertz >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM >>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? >>> >>> >>> >>> Ray checkout http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm >>> >>> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws >>> >>> Cheers Werner >>> >>> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote: >>>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I >>>> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> * >> >> >> * > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 26, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: LED similar to EL strip
Greetings, Saw this item and thought of the EL strips that were so noisy. This is listed as a flat LED. http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&productId=2153174&catalogId=10001&CID=PDF -- Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
From: Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 26, 2013
All, Thank you very much for all the excellent avenues to explore re metric hardware, I learnt a lot in just one evening! I am leaning towards the solution involving the next AN size up (AN6 bolts, but will have to check whether the fittings will allow it), and will try to do it as per Lynn's instructions. Sacha ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wires in wing
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 26, 2013
The RV-12 uses plastic bushing that snap into holes drilled through the wing ribs. Van's Aircraft sells them in various sizes for 8 cents each. http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=1364340395-166-15&browse=hardware&product=bushing They are very light weight. Wires slide easier through plastic than through rubber. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397142#397142 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R. curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: LED similar to EL strip
Date: Mar 26, 2013
Saw this item and thought of the EL strips that were so noisy. This is l isted as a flat LED. http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay=3FlangId=-1& storeId=10001&productId=2153174&catalogId=10001&CID=PDF I get the impression from some of the recent posts that some seem to th ink that LED lights are noisy. THEY ARE NOT NOISY! The high power leds need to have a current regulated supply, and one of the more efficient methods of producing a regulated current is to use a sw itching supply, which has an oscillator built in. This oscillator is often the culpret that radiates the RF which gets into our radio receivers. The se regulators can be designed quite easily to be quiet. Most of the ones t hat we experimental aircraft builders are having a noise problem with were originally built for automotive use where noise in the 120mhz range was not an issue. Roger -- Do you have a slow PC=3F Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfi ghter=3Fcid=sigen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Date: Mar 26, 2013
Sacha; The "proper" solution to your dilemma is to ream the holes to accept AN-6 hardware of the correct length and not substitute alternative materials of unknown provenance in this critical application. The only remaining proviso is to check edge distances etc carefully for adequate strength. It's unlikely that the difference between -5 and -6 hardware will compromise the structural integrity of the mount especially since your holes are already 8mm. Your new larger holes will only be about 30 thousandths of an inch closer to the edge. Not enough to make much difference, but still critical to check. Good luck Bob McC _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 11:54 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? Echo that... It's a shame that our US friends (and hence much of the aviation world) is still stuck using that antiquated system... Metric seems so much more coherent. Anyway at the moment I'm presented with a situation which requires me to use metric which is why I'm asking the question. I've also been doing what you do (stainless for non structural, AN for the structural parts) but I am now presented with the following dilemma: For some reason the previous owner has drilled some 8mm holes and appears to have been using 8mm stainless bolts to fasten the wings of the Kitfox I'm rebuilding. The original design calls for 5/16" diameter holes and AN5 bolts. But now I'm reluctant to use them because an AN5 bolt will be a bit loose (5/16" = 7.93mm) in an 8mm hole. On the other hand an M8 regular stainless bolt is not really strong enough. The best I've found so far is A4-80 a.k.a "strong stainless" which has a shear strength of 800MPa (vs the 700MPa of regular stainless). Plugging in the numbers gives a shear capacity of an M8 bolt as 800*8*8*pi/4= 40kN which is approx 9000 lb. This is still approx 20% below that of an AN5 bolt (11500lb). Hence my search for metric "aircraft grade" fasteners... Ok sorry for the rant and for straying OT. I thought I would try to use the vast knowledge base if this group since I'm getting nowhere with Google... (just mentioning this in for you Eric...:) Sacha On Mar 26, 2013, at 15:25, "Jay Hyde" wrote: Hello Sacha, I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. :-) For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die.) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US. Johannesburg Jay From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe? Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer. On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj wrote: Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the ones I

March 08, 2013 - March 26, 2013

AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-lq