AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-lr
March 26, 2013 - April 21, 2013
chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN
screws. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have
prefered it. Definitely preferable to Phillips.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer
for avoiding stripouts like phillips
Bill Schertz
-----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM
| Subject: | Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
Ray checkout http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm
I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws
Cheers Werner
On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote:
Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I
prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads.
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will
donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The cadmium is
more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial barrier.
Eventually, it has no more ions to donate and loses it's value as a
corrosion preventative. Time then for new hardware. Another approach
would be to prime your hardware and install it wet.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote:
>
> Hello Sacha,
>
> I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I
> simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones
> to protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have
> relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have
> given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut and
> bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and ask
> for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J
>
> For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are
> not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or
> die) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
>
> Johannesburg Jay
>
> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Sacha
> *Sent:* 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>
> Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and
> where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in
> Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've
> been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can only
> find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer.
>
>
> On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj > wrote:
>
> Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the
> ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big
> assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an stuff
> with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. Definitely
> preferable to Phillips.
>
> Raymond Julian
>
> Kettle River, MN.
>
>
>
> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
>
> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
>
> On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
>
>
>
> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx
> drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
> Bill Schertz
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider
> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to
> airframe?
>
>
>
> Ray checkout
> http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm
>
> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws
>
> Cheers Werner
>
> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote:
>
> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts
> because I
> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads.
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
> * *
> **
> **
> **
> **
> **
> **
> **
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List <3D%22http:/www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>*
> **
> **
> **
> **
> **
> *http://forums.matronics.com <3D%22http:/forums.matronics.com>*
> **
> **
> **
> **
> **
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution <3D%22http:/www.matronics.com/contribution>*
> **
> * *
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LED similar to EL strip |
At 08:58 PM 3/26/2013, you wrote:
Saw this item and thought of the EL strips that were so noisy. This
is listed as a flat LED.
http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&productId=2153174&catalogId=10001&CID=PDF
I get the impression from some of the recent posts that some seem to
think that LED lights are noisy. THEY ARE NOT NOISY!
The high power leds need to have a current regulated supply, and one
of the more efficient methods of producing a regulated current is to
use a switching supply, which has an oscillator built in. This
oscillator is often the culpret that radiates the RF which gets into
our radio receivers. These regulators can be designed quite easily
to be quiet. Most of the ones that we experimental aircraft builders
are having a noise problem with were originally built for automotive
use where noise in the 120mhz range was not an issue.
Roger
Cool find Roger . . . I'll pursue it.
EL (electroluminescent) lights are essentially
capacitors with a dielectric that emits
light when excited by an alternating electro-static
field of generally 40-200 volts range and 200 to
1000 Hz.
LED lights are solid state diode junctions that
emit light when excited by a current flow in the
forward direction across the junction.
Neither light technology is inherently noisy.
The EL technology requires a DC to AC converter.
It's usually variable to adjust for relative
lamp brightness. LED's run happily on DC excitation
taken directly from the bus . . . again paired
with some technology for varying the current to
the lamp.
Rudimentary controls comprised of series resistance
are inefficient but tolerable for small loads.
The high power LEDs perform best when supplied by
constant current DC to DC sources. These can
be variable under pilot control or fixed depending
on application of the lights.
ALL of our discussions here on the List about
"noisy lights" have centered on high power applications
for LEDs as position lights and more recently, landing
and taxi lights. The solid state lamps are not inherently
noisy but the power supplies needed for efficient
utilization can be and often are objectionably noisy
for use on airplanes.
The discussions have pondered techniques for adapting
commercial off the shelf examples of such products
to our airplanes by first determining if there noise
levels are acceptably low and then applying additional
filters as necessary. It's easy to build power supplies
that are airplane friendly . . . but suppliers of
the attractive COTS products probably couldn't care less
about getting their products onto airplanes.
The item featured in the Jameco catalog has an
interesting form factor reminiscent of an EL light
panel. I'll get one and see what it's all about.
Emacs!
Several readers have noted the proliferation of led strip
lights fitted with multiple surface mounted LEDs.
Here's one of many examples:
http://tinyurl.com/chsx9j2
These are assemblies 3LED/1Resistor modules about
2" in length. Long strips can be cut to length
between modules.
These are very user friendly. I've got plans to
use about 100 feet of these strips in an overhaul
of room and counter lighting in my kitchen.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: vhf transponder interference |
| From: | "jappie" <jappie(at)videotron.ca> |
Thank you Bob
I did my soldering last weekend with RG-142 but I installed the impedance bushing
not knowing better, anyhow, I don't think it will be harmfull.
JP
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397176#397176
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net> |
| Subject: | Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to aluminum
sheet and angle stock play nice together?
Bevan
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed
Holyoke
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will donate
ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The cadmium is more anodic
than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has no
more ions to donate and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time
then for new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardware and
install it wet.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote:
Hello Sacha,
I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I simply
use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect
against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close
galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have given up trying to source,
or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far
easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J
For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too
difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die.) ; I order
them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
Johannesburg Jay
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha
Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I
can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm
willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun
intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers,
nothing for the retail buyer.
On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj wrote:
Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the ones I
chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN
screws. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have
prefered it. Definitely preferable to Phillips.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer
for avoiding stripouts like phillips
Bill Schertz
-----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Ray checkout http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm
I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws
Cheers Werner
On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote:
Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I
prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
At 01:16 AM 3/28/2013, you wrote:
>How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to
>aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
>
>Bevan
I seem to recall some conversations many Many MANY moons
back about monel rivets used on firewall assemblies. Wasn't
my area of interest at the time. It would be interesting to
dig out a Cessna Service Parts catalog of the 1960's and see
what attaching parts are called out for oowl attach brackets.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LED similar to EL strip |
At 11:16 AM 3/27/2013, you wrote:
>At 08:58 PM 3/26/2013, you wrote:
>
>Saw this item and thought of the EL strips that were so noisy. This
>is listed as a flat LED.
>
>http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&productId=2153174&catalogId=10001&CID=PDF
>
I've got one of these critters on order. They're back-ordered
for about 10 days. Must be a popular item. Here's the manufacturer's
data sheet
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Lamps/JKL_Lamps/ZLP-MULTI.pdf
The item stocked by Jameco is 3.5" long by .48" wide and
draws 350 ma at it's rated 10.2 volts. It's also said to
have a max operating voltage of 12 volts. 3.5 watts
dissipated into this area and volume suggests it's a POWER
device with no particular power conditioning capabilities
built in. I.e. it would best be driven by a constant-current
power source (like the buck-pucks).
Will know more about it when we can get our hands on one.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
| From: | DeWitt Whittington <dee.whittington(at)gmail.com> |
Yes, Bob, that is the answer. Our Sportsman kit came with a supply of Monel
rivets for the thin, stainless firewall.
Dee
On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 10:07 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 01:16 AM 3/28/2013, you wrote:
>
> How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to
> aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
>
> Bevan
>
>
> I seem to recall some conversations many Many MANY moons
> back about monel rivets used on firewall assemblies. Wasn't
> my area of interest at the time. It would be interesting to
> dig out a Cessna Service Parts catalog of the 1960's and see
> what attaching parts are called out for oowl attach brackets.
>
> **
>
> ** Bob . . .
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
DeWitt (Dee) Whittington
804-677-4849 iPhone
804-358-4333 Home
www.VirginiaFlyIn.org
Building Glasair Sportsman with 3 partners
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
At 11:47 AM 3/28/2013, you wrote:
>Yes, Bob, that is the answer. Our Sportsman kit came with a supply
>of Monel rivets for the thin, stainless firewall.
>
>Dee
I think it was in the booth at OSH that
an EAA'er said they were "harder than the
hubs of hell", was that you?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
Yet there are many thousands of RV-x's flying with regular A/N aluminum
rivets holding stainless firewalls to aluminum *and steel* structure.
Many of them for several decades.
Aluminum is primed; steel is either primed or powder coated (depending
on the age of the kit). Things get bent or cracked occasionally, but
I've never seen anyone on any of the user groups complain about rivet or
aluminum corrosion in the firewall area.
Charlie
On 03/28/2013 11:47 AM, DeWitt Whittington wrote:
> Yes, Bob, that is the answer. Our Sportsman kit came with a supply of
> Monel rivets for the thin, stainless firewall.
>
> Dee
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 10:07 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> >
> wrote:
>
> At 01:16 AM 3/28/2013, you wrote:
>> How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets
>> to aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
>>
>> Bevan
>
> I seem to recall some conversations many Many MANY moons
> back about monel rivets used on firewall assemblies. Wasn't
> my area of interest at the time. It would be interesting to
> dig out a Cessna Service Parts catalog of the 1960's and see
> what attaching parts are called out for oowl attach brackets.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
| From: | DeWitt Whittington <dee.whittington(at)gmail.com> |
No, don't remember that. Ours were -3s and yes, and even then they were not
easy to drive. Two of us did it holding the firewall horizontal over a
bucking bar clamped in a vise.
Dee
On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com**>
>
>
> At 11:47 AM 3/28/2013, you wrote:
>
>> Yes, Bob, that is the answer. Our Sportsman kit came with a supply of
>> Monel rivets for the thin, stainless firewall.
>>
>> Dee
>>
>
> I think it was in the booth at OSH that
> an EAA'er said they were "harder than the
> hubs of hell", was that you?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
--
DeWitt (Dee) Whittington
804-677-4849 iPhone
804-358-4333 Home
www.VirginiaFlyIn.org
Building Glasair Sportsman with 3 partners
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wires in wing |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Pix of Panduit LHMSs. These really are better than what you can make.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397214#397214
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/lhms_186.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/lhmscloseup_853.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet stock in
use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need primer. All
extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to be primed to
prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying surfaces (where two
pieces fit together) and it should certainly be done at dissimilar metal
joints.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote:
> How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to
> aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
> Bevan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *Ed Holyoke
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>
> Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will
> donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The cadmium
> is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial barrier.
> Eventually, it has no more ions to donate and loses it's value as a
> corrosion preventative. Time then for new hardware. Another approach
> would be to prime your hardware and install it wet.
>
> Ed Holyoke
>
> On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote:
>>
>> Hello Sacha,
>>
>> I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I
>> simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones
>> to protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have
>> relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have
>> given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut
>> and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and
>> ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J
>>
>> For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are
>> not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or
>> die...) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
>>
>> Johannesburg Jay
>>
>> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
>> *Sacha
>> *Sent:* 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>
>> Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and
>> where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in
>> Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've
>> been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can
>> only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer.
>>
>>
>> On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj > > wrote:
>>
>> Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the
>> ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big
>> assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an stuff
>> with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. Definitely
>> preferable to Phillips.
>>
>> Raymond Julian
>>
>> Kettle River, MN.
>>
>>
>>
>> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
>>
>> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
>>
>> On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx
>> drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
>> Bill Schertz
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM
>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>
>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to
>> airframe?
>>
>>
>>
>> Ray checkout
>> http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm
>>
>> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws
>>
>> Cheers Werner
>>
>> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote:
>>
>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts
>> because I
>> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> * *
>>
>> * *
>>
>> * *
>>
>> * *
>> * *
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List <3D%22http:/www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>*
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> *http://forums.matronics.com <3D%22http:/forums.matronics.com>*
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution <3D%22http:/www.matronics.com/contribution>*
>> **
>> * *
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> *
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
Ed,
Drifting somewhat from the theme of this list, but to say that alclad
doesn't need priming is a bold statement. In Texas maybe, but in a cool
maritime climate it isn't really adequate protection against the dreaded
metal worm in the long term.
For grounding studs I have seen bright zinc plated bolts used with the
primer removed from the structure they were inserted into. To make it
clear what they are the paint finish was restored with a contrasting
colour (blue in this case I'm thinking of against puke yellow primer),
but leaving the nut holding the stud in unpainted for good electrical
connection.
Peter
On 29/03/2013 02:57, Ed Holyoke wrote:
> With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet stock
> in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need primer. All
> extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to be primed to
> prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying surfaces (where two
> pieces fit together) and it should certainly be done at dissimilar
> metal joints.
>
> Ed Holyoke
>
> On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote:
>> How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to
>> aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
>> Bevan
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
>> *Ed Holyoke
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>
>> Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will
>> donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The cadmium
>> is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial barrier.
>> Eventually, it has no more ions to donate and loses it's value as a
>> corrosion preventative. Time then for new hardware. Another approach
>> would be to prime your hardware and install it wet.
>>
>> Ed Holyoke
>>
>> On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Sacha,
>>>
>>> I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I
>>> simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones
>>> to protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have
>>> relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have
>>> given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial nut
>>> and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt store and
>>> ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J
>>>
>>> For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are
>>> not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or
>>> die...) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
>>>
>>> Johannesburg Jay
>>>
>>> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
>>> *Sacha
>>> *Sent:* 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
>>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>>
>>> Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and
>>> where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in
>>> Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've
>>> been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can
>>> only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure
>>> the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big
>>> assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an stuff
>>> with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. Definitely
>>> preferable to Phillips.
>>>
>>> Raymond Julian
>>>
>>> Kettle River, MN.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
>>>
>>> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
>>>
>>> On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx
>>> drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
>>> Bill Schertz
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM
>>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to
>>> airframe?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ray checkout
>>> http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm
>>>
>>> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws
>>>
>>> Cheers Werner
>>>
>>> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote:
>>>
>>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts
>>> because I
>>> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> * *
>>>
>>> * *
>>>
>>> * *
>>>
>>> * *
>>> * *
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List <3D%22http:/www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>*
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> *http://forums.matronics.com <3D%22http:/forums.matronics.com>*
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution <3D%22http:/www.matronics.com/contribution>*
>>> **
>>> * *
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>> *
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>> *
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
| From: | Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
Will any old primer do or are there products that work better than others on
certain materials (I'm thinking Al and Stainless in particular since my Cro
moly frame is already primed.
On Mar 29, 2013, at 10:19, Peter Pengilly wrote:
> Ed,
>
> Drifting somewhat from the theme of this list, but to say that alclad does
n't need priming is a bold statement. In Texas maybe, but in a cool maritime
climate it isn't really adequate protection against the dreaded metal w
orm in the long term.
>
> For grounding studs I have seen bright zinc plated bolts used with the pri
mer removed from the structure they were inserted into. To make it clear wha
t they are the paint finish was restored with a contrasting colour (blue in t
his case I'm thinking of against puke yellow primer), but leaving the nut ho
lding the stud in unpainted for good electrical connection.
>
> Peter
>
> On 29/03/2013 02:57, Ed Holyoke wrote:
>> With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet stock in u
se on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need primer. All extruded an
gle and bar stock is not clad and needs to be primed to prevent corrosion. M
any folks prime all faying surfaces (where two pieces fit together) and it s
hould certainly be done at dissimilar metal joints.
>>
>> Ed Holyoke
>>
>> On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote:
>>>
>>> How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to alum
inum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
>>>
>>> Bevan
>>>
>>> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroele
ctric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
>>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>>
>>> Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will donat
e ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The cadmium is more anod
ic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has n
o more ions to donate and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time
then for new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardware and
install it wet.
>>>
>>> Ed Holyoke
>>>
>>> On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello Sacha,
>>>> I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I si
mply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protec
t against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close ga
lvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or
even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier
to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J
>>>> For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not
too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die=81c) ; I
order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
>>>> Johannesburg Jay
>>>> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroel
ectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha
>>>> Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
>>>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>>> Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and wh
ere I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though
I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun
intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers, no
thing for the retail buyer.
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the ones I
chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN sc
rews. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have pref
ered it. Definitely preferable to Phillips.
>>>>
>>>> Raymond Julian
>>>> Kettle River, MN.
>>>>
>>>> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
>>>> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
>>>> On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
mcast.net>
>>>>
>>>> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much ni
cer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
>>>> Bill Schertz
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM
>>>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>>>
net>
>>>>
>>>> Ray checkout http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm
>>>>
>>>> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws
>>>>
>>>> Cheers Werner
>>>>
>>>> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I
>>>> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>>> http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>>
>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www
.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/
c
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
Good Morning Ed,
Care to comment as to how well Anodizing works?
I Anodize all small parts before painting.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 3/28/2013 10:00:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
bicyclop(at)pacbell.net writes:
With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet stock in
use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need primer. All extruded
angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to be primed to prevent corrosio
n.
Many folks prime all faying surfaces (where two pieces fit together) and i
t
should certainly be done at dissimilar metal joints.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote:
How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to
aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
Bevan
____________________________________
From: _owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com_
(mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)
[_mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-aeroel
ectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) ] On
Behalf Of Ed Holyoke
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
(mailto:aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will donate
ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The cadmium is more
anodic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it
has
no more ions to donate and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative.
Time then for new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardwa
re
and install it wet.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote:
Hello Sacha,
I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I
simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to pr
otect
against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close
galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have given up trying to source
,
or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far
easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts.
J
For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not
too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die
) ; I
order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
Johannesburg Jay
From: _owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com_
(mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)
[_mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-aeroel
ectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) ] On
Behalf Of Sacha
Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
(mailto:aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where
I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though
I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pu
n
intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers,
nothing for the retail buyer.
On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj <_raymondj(at)frontiernet.net_
(mailto:raymondj(at)frontiernet.net) > wrote:
Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the ones I
chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN
screws. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have
prefered it. Definitely preferable to Phillips.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Schertz"
__ (mailto:wschertz(at)comcast.net)
Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer
for avoiding stripouts like phillips
Bill Schertz
-----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM
(mailto:aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
__ (mailto:glastar(at)gmx.net)
Ray checkout _http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm_
(http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm)
I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws
Cheers Werner
On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote:
Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I
prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads.
_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List_
(mip://09277f20/3D"http:/www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List)
_http://forums.matronics.com_
(mip://09277f20/3D"http:/forums.matronics.com)
_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_
(mip://09277f20/3D"http:/www.matronics.com/contribution)
href=_"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"_
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List)
>_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List_
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List)
href=_"http://forums.matronics.com"_ (http://forums.matronics.com/)
>_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/)
href=_"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"_
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution) >_http://www.matronics.com/c_ (http
://www.matronics.com/c)
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
Good morning Bob,
I think you are referring to using the chemical chromate Alodine
process. Anodizing I believe requires equipment that most of us don't have.
From Wikipedia "*Anodizing* (also spelled 'Anodising', particularly in
the UK) is an electrolytic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolyte>
passivation <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passivation_%28chemistry%29>
process used to increase the thickness of the natural oxide
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxide> layer on the surface of metal
parts. The process is called "anodizing" because the part to be treated
forms the anode <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anode> electrode of an
electrical circuit <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_circuit>. "
Kelly
On 3/29/2013 6:18 AM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:
> Good Morning Ed,
> Care to comment as to how well Anodizing works?
> I Anodize all small parts before painting.
> Happy Skies,
> Old Bob
> In a message dated 3/28/2013 10:00:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> bicyclop(at)pacbell.net writes:
>
> With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet
> stock in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need
> primer. All extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to
> be primed to prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying
> surfaces (where two pieces fit together) and it should certainly
> be done at dissimilar metal joints.
>
> Ed Holyoke
>
> On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote:
>> How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets
>> to aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
>> Bevan
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf
>> Of *Ed Holyoke
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>
>> Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum
>> will donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The
>> cadmium is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a
>> sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has no more ions to donate
>> and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time then for
>> new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardware
>> and install it wet.
>>
>> Ed Holyoke
>>
>> On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Sacha,
>>>
>>> I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural
>>> parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually
>>> stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless
>>> steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as
>>> far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or even
>>> understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far
>>> easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and
>>> M6 nuts. J
>>>
>>> For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they
>>> are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a
>>> tap or die) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
>>>
>>> Johannesburg Jay
>>>
>>> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf
>>> Of *Sacha
>>> *Sent:* 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
>>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>>
>>> Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is
>>> and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere
>>> in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary.
>>> I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some
>>> but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail
>>> buyer.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be
>>> sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering
>>> a big assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten
>>> an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it.
>>> Definitely preferable to Phillips.
>>>
>>> Raymond Julian
>>>
>>> Kettle River, MN.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
>>>
>>> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
>>>
>>> On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
>>>
>>> Schertz"
>>>
>>>
>>> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx
>>> drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
>>> Bill Schertz
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM
>>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to
>>> airframe?
>>>
>>> Schneider
>>>
>>> Ray checkout
>>> http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm
>>>
>>> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws
>>>
>>> Cheers Werner
>>>
>>> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote:
>>>
>>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head
>>> bolts because I
>>> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> * *
>>>
>>> * *
>>>
>>> * *
>>>
>>> * *
>>> * *
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List *
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> *http://forums.matronics.com *
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>>> **
>>> * *
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>> *
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>> *
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>
> *
>
> ist href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
> p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
The concerns for forestalling environmental effects
on assembled parts and attach hardware are quite
germane to our mission for doing the best we know how
to do . . . so don't feel that this topic has run off
into the weeds.
At the same time, recall that making good electrical
connection between a wire and some surface of the
airframe is dependent on that ring of terminal material
around the hole and the surface to which it comes in
contact. Having the equivalent of hermetic or gas-
tight contact in this critical area is where the
magic happens for getting your electrons from point
A to point B over the lifetime of the airplane.
Gas tightness is a function of FORCE used to mate up
and maintain the terminal's intimate contact with the
airframe. The proper force may be secured with a variety
of materials . . . materials that have to live with their
surroundings too. But you can enjoy excellent electrical
performance even if the screw is crusted with rust . . .
as long as that 'magic donut' of contact is still good.
Where the messiness of silicone grease migration can
be tolerated, doping the mating surfaces of terminal and
airplane with Dow Corning DC4 or equal goes to filling
any voids in the final mate-up to the exclusion of
moisture.
These are separate but related issues, each with their
own recipes for success.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
Bob,
You've "got plans to
use about 100 feet of these strips in an overhaul
of room and counter lighting in (your) kitchen."
How about sharing the plans? How does the brightness compare to the thin
tube 5 to 10 watt fluorescents and starters that I constantly have to
replace?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: (no subject) |
At 12:24 PM 3/29/2013, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
>You've "got plans to
> use about 100 feet of these strips in an overhaul
> of room and counter lighting in (your) kitchen."
>
>How about sharing the plans? How does the brightness compare to the
>thin tube 5 to 10 watt fluorescents and starters that I constantly
>have to replace?
I've already stuck a couple of strips on
the underside of one cabinet to replace a
single 12W tube lamp. Illumination
is very nice. Light is nearly 'flat'
i.e. shadow free.
40+ years ago, Dad put canister lamps for
general lighting over the counters and an
array of flourescent tubes for work lights.
One strip of lamps is not enough but two
side-by-side seem adequate. Sticking these
strips up on the bottom of cabinets in
straight lines and then wiring them up is
problematic. I'm building twin-row strip lamps
on pieces of Formica about 1.5" wide.
Complete assemblies of pre-wired lamps on thin,
rigid substrates will make installation MUCH
easier. There are decorative features in the
woodwork that minimizes direct visibility of the leds.
I'm planning to replace the canister lamps
with a similar process. There will be another
array of accent lights to illuminate the ceiling
over the cabinets. Hence, a whole bunch of LEDs!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
Bob,
When I worked for Hawkers (that's the real Hawkers of Hurricane, Sea
Fury, Hunter and Harrier fame) we anodized every aluminium part that
wasn't clad, and then epoxy primed the lot with a 2 pack chromate
primer. There is a very slight loss of ductility in the surface layers
with anodizing, but most manufacturers take the view that that is a
small price to pay for the long term prevention of corrosion.
To answer an earlier question, for AB aircraft (that typically lead a
fairly cosseted life) I think that any corrosion preventing primer will
be much better than none at all - but I really am not looking to start
primer wars here!
Peter
On 29/03/2013 13:18, BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:
> Good Morning Ed,
> Care to comment as to how well Anodizing works?
> I Anodize all small parts before painting.
> Happy Skies,
> Old Bob
> In a message dated 3/28/2013 10:00:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> bicyclop(at)pacbell.net writes:
>
> With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet
> stock in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need
> primer. All extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to
> be primed to prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying
> surfaces (where two pieces fit together) and it should certainly
> be done at dissimilar metal joints.
>
> Ed Holyoke
>
> On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote:
>> How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets
>> to aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
>> Bevan
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf
>> Of *Ed Holyoke
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>
>> Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum
>> will donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The
>> cadmium is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a
>> sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has no more ions to donate
>> and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time then for
>> new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardware
>> and install it wet.
>>
>> Ed Holyoke
>>
>> On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Sacha,
>>>
>>> I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural
>>> parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually
>>> stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless
>>> steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as
>>> far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or even
>>> understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far
>>> easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and
>>> M6 nuts. J
>>>
>>> For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they
>>> are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a
>>> tap or die) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
>>>
>>> Johannesburg Jay
>>>
>>> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf
>>> Of *Sacha
>>> *Sent:* 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
>>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>>
>>> Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is
>>> and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere
>>> in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary.
>>> I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some
>>> but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail
>>> buyer.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be
>>> sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering
>>> a big assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten
>>> an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it.
>>> Definitely preferable to Phillips.
>>>
>>> Raymond Julian
>>>
>>> Kettle River, MN.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
>>>
>>> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
>>>
>>> On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
>>>
>>> Schertz"
>>>
>>>
>>> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx
>>> drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
>>> Bill Schertz
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM
>>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to
>>> airframe?
>>>
>>> Schneider
>>>
>>> Ray checkout
>>> http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm
>>>
>>> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws
>>>
>>> Cheers Werner
>>>
>>> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote:
>>>
>>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head
>>> bolts because I
>>> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> * *
>>>
>>> * *
>>>
>>> * *
>>>
>>> * *
>>> * *
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List *
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> *http://forums.matronics.com *
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>>> **
>>> * *
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>> *
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>> *
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>
> *
>
> ist href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
> p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
Good Afternoon Kelly,
As Usual you are correct. My lack of education is showing again.
Thanks for the correction.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 3/29/2013 9:40:19 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
kellym(at)aviating.com writes:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen
Good morning Bob,
I think you are referring to using the chemical chromate Alodine
process. Anodizing I believe requires equipment that most of us don't have
.
>From Wikipedia "*Anodizing* (also spelled 'Anodising', particularly in
the UK) is an electrolytic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolyte>
passivation <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passivation_%28chemistry%29>
process used to increase the thickness of the natural oxide
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxide> layer on the surface of metal
parts. The process is called "anodizing" because the part to be treated
forms the anode <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anode> electrode of an
electrical circuit <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_circuit>. "
Kelly
On 3/29/2013 6:18 AM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:
> Good Morning Ed,
> Care to comment as to how well Anodizing works?
> I Anodize all small parts before painting.
> Happy Skies,
> Old Bob
> In a message dated 3/28/2013 10:00:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> bicyclop(at)pacbell.net writes:
>
> With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet
> stock in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need
> primer. All extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to
> be primed to prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying
> surfaces (where two pieces fit together) and it should certainly
> be done at dissimilar metal joints.
>
> Ed Holyoke
>
> On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote:
>> How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets
>> to aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
>> Bevan
>>
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf
>> Of *Ed Holyoke
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>
>> Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum
>> will donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The
>> cadmium is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a
>> sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has no more ions to donate
>> and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time then for
>> new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardware
>> and install it wet.
>>
>> Ed Holyoke
>>
>> On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Sacha,
>>>
>>> I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural
>>> parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually
>>> stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless
>>> steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as
>>> far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or even
>>> understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far
>>> easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and
>>> M6 nuts. J
>>>
>>> For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they
>>> are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a
>>> tap or die) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce
in the
US.
>>>
>>> Johannesburg Jay
>>>
>>> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf
>>> Of *Sacha
>>> *Sent:* 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
>>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to
airframe?
>>>
>>> Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is
>>> and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere
>>> in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary.
>>> I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some
>>> but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail
>>> buyer.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be
>>> sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering
>>> a big assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten
>>> an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it.
>>> Definitely preferable to Phillips.
>>>
>>> Raymond Julian
>>>
>>> Kettle River, MN.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
>>>
>>> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
>>>
>>> On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
>>>
>>> Schertz"
>>>
>>>
>>> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx
>>> drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
>>> Bill Schertz
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM
>>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to
>>> airframe?
>>>
>>> Schneider
>>>
>>> Ray checkout
>>> http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm
>>>
>>> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws
>>>
>>> Cheers Werner
>>>
>>> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote:
>>>
>>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head
>>> bolts because I
>>> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> * *
>>>
>>> * *
>>>
>>> * *
>>>
>>> * *
>>> * *
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
*
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> *http://forums.matronics.com
*
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution
*
>>> **
>>> * *
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>> *
>>
>>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>> *
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>
> *
>
> ist
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
>
p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Can Antenna problems damage a com transmitter? |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
I intend to do some experimenting with homemade com antennas connected to my IC-A200.
Is there a danger of damaging the transmitter if the antenna is either open or
short circuited or otherwise unsuitable?
Thanks,
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397423#397423
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Can Antenna problems damage a com transmitter? |
| From: | Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net> |
Hi Joe, yes there is the possibility of damage if not built correctly. I assume
you are building a 1/2 wave dipole or 1/4 wave vertical according to some published
plans and if so, and the elements are cut to the correct length and it
should be ok. Just make sure you have continuity at the radio connector, from
the coax connector center conductor to the individual correct element and from
the connector shield out the the other element. Also ensure you have NO conductivity
between the elements. Then try the receiver, then the transmitter.
The SWR of the antenna can also be influenced by proximity to other stuff, like
you or your airplane. To be safe, buy yourself a SWR meter or borrow one. Then
you will know you are presenting a suitable impedance to the radio.
Good luck
Tim
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 31, 2013, at 9:28 AM, "user9253" wrote:
>
> I intend to do some experimenting with homemade com antennas connected to my
IC-A200.
> Is there a danger of damaging the transmitter if the antenna is either open or
short circuited or otherwise unsuitable?
> Thanks,
> Joe
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397423#397423
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Can Antenna problems damage a com transmitter? |
At 11:28 AM 3/31/2013, you wrote:
>
>I intend to do some experimenting with homemade com antennas
>connected to my IC-A200.
>Is there a danger of damaging the transmitter if the antenna is
>either open or short circuited or otherwise unsuitable?
>Thanks,
>Joe
The very first solid state VHF transmitter I
crossed paths with was indeed vulnerable to
high SWR loading. But that was 1968 and
the transistors were germanium PNP devices.
A lot of improvements have been made over
the years not only in the efficiency of transistors
suited to the task but in their relative ruggedness
as well. Nowadays, it is so easy to build a reflectometer
right into a transceiver. The reflected power
function is used to reduce drive to the transmitter's final
amplifiers such that the transceiver is self protecting in
extreme SWR situations (shorted or open coax).
When using your transceiver for exploratory
measurements, look at SWR first and excited
the test setup for only long enough to see
that your SWR readings are not really out of
whack. The IC-A200 manual allows normal operations
at SWR as high as 3:1 but is silent as to
any cautions for still higher numbers.
Open and shorted coaxes are part and parcel
of living in the real world. Your transceiver
is not at risk for the short duration measurements
you're needing to accomplish.
When ever we needed to make extended tests
on a transmission line/antenna combo with
high SWR, we would stick a 6 db attenuator
in the line (100 feet of RG-58 coax works
good too. The losses through the attenuator/coax
are so great that TERRIBLE swr at the far end has
no great effect on the energy source. The attenuator
would keep the transmitter's auto-power down
circuit happy.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Can Antenna problems damage a com transmitter? |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks for the info, Bob.
I will proceed with caution.
Joe
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397516#397516
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R. curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Failed contactor |
Bob,
Just checking to see if you got the junk contactor?
Roger
--
Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Dolphin Electrical Wire Connectors |
4/1/2013
Hello Bob Nuckolls, It has been suggested that I use these Dolphin
DC-100- P or -S insulation piercing type electrical wire connectors for
low amperage wire connection usage, such as a Ray Allen trim servo, in
my experimental amateur built airplane:
http://dolphincomponents.com/catalogs/Section%20A%20-%20Super%20B%20stand
ard-3207.pdf
What do you think? Thank you.
Owen C. Baker
PS: This is not intended as an April Fools Day joke.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
Howdy Peter,
Right you are. Alclad isn't perfect, but for most of us it will be good
enough. Here in California and hangared there really isn't a lot of
concern about corrosion. This will not be true everywhere and in all
conditions. That said, how many of our homebuilt airplanes will be
flying in fifty years? For many of us the aircraft will likely outlive
us whether or not we prime everything and if we spend so much time
obsessing about the future life of the aircraft that it doesn't get
finished until our medicals are no longer renewable..... Well, you get
the picture. Gotta balance serviceability and utility with getting done
in time to fly it.
Another factor is of course weight. Priming everything could add say
five pounds, maybe more. Doesn't seem like much but it tends to add up.
Folks really like the deep shine of a base/clear coat paint job and
those tend to be ten or more pounds heavier than single stage to color.
Can't really see the difference from ten feet, let alone a thousand.
Some of us pad the whole interior with leather and/or carpet. Looks
great and reminds of of a luxury car but doesn't improve the way the
airplane flies.
The great thing about homebuilding is that you can choose what you want
in a way that certificated aircraft will never do. Maybe you've got
grandkids who will keep the airplane flying a long time and would
appreciate having everything primed. If you want to load the panel with
every possible goodie and don't care about the weight, hey - it's your
airplane. I'm looking to keep it light while being maintainable. I doubt
that the alclad skins will show any sign of corrosion in my lifetime and
then there's always CorrosionX.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/29/2013 2:19 AM, Peter Pengilly wrote:
> Ed,
>
> Drifting somewhat from the theme of this list, but to say that alclad
> doesn't need priming is a bold statement. In Texas maybe, but in a
> cool maritime climate it isn't really adequate protection against the
> dreaded metal worm in the long term.
>
> For grounding studs I have seen bright zinc plated bolts used with the
> primer removed from the structure they were inserted into. To make it
> clear what they are the paint finish was restored with a contrasting
> colour (blue in this case I'm thinking of against puke yellow primer),
> but leaving the nut holding the stud in unpainted for good electrical
> connection.
>
> Peter
>
> On 29/03/2013 02:57, Ed Holyoke wrote:
>> With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet stock
>> in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need primer. All
>> extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to be primed to
>> prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying surfaces (where two
>> pieces fit together) and it should certainly be done at dissimilar
>> metal joints.
>>
>> Ed Holyoke
>>
>> On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote:
>>> How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to
>>> aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
>>> Bevan
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
>>> *Ed Holyoke
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
>>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>>
>>> Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will
>>> donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The cadmium
>>> is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial barrier.
>>> Eventually, it has no more ions to donate and loses it's value as a
>>> corrosion preventative. Time then for new hardware. Another approach
>>> would be to prime your hardware and install it wet.
>>>
>>> Ed Holyoke
>>>
>>> On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello Sacha,
>>>>
>>>> I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts
>>>> I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel
>>>> ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium
>>>> have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I
>>>> have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the imperial
>>>> nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a bolt
>>>> store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J
>>>>
>>>> For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are
>>>> not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or
>>>> die...) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
>>>>
>>>> Johannesburg Jay
>>>>
>>>> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
>>>> *Sacha
>>>> *Sent:* 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
>>>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is
>>>> and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in
>>>> Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary. I've
>>>> been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but can
>>>> only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj >>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure
>>>> the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big
>>>> assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an stuff
>>>> with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. Definitely
>>>> preferable to Phillips.
>>>>
>>>> Raymond Julian
>>>>
>>>> Kettle River, MN.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
>>>>
>>>> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
>>>>
>>>> On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx
>>>> drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
>>>> Bill Schertz
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM
>>>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to
>>>> airframe?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ray checkout
>>>> http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm
>>>>
>>>> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws
>>>>
>>>> Cheers Werner
>>>>
>>>> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts
>>>> because I
>>>> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> * *
>>>>
>>>> * *
>>>>
>>>> * *
>>>>
>>>> * *
>>>> * *
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List <3D%22http:/www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>*
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> *http://forums.matronics.com <3D%22http:/forums.matronics.com>*
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> **
>>>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution <3D%22http:/www.matronics.com/contribution>*
>>>> **
>>>> * *
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *
>>> *
>>>
>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>>> *
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
Epoxy primer is the gold standard. It's also sort of a pain to mix,
spray, and clean up after. For long term between dissimilar metals,
probably worth doing. For little parts when I don't want to go through
all the trouble, I've been using self etching primer in the rattle can.
Rustoleum brand is available at Lowe's and HD. It's dark green. Looks a
bit like the old zinc chromate only it doesn't clog the nozzle up like
that stuff always did.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/29/2013 6:18 AM, Sacha wrote:
> Will any old primer do or are there products that work better than
> others on certain materials (I'm thinking Al and Stainless in
> particular since my Cromoly frame is already primed.
>
> On Mar 29, 2013, at 10:19, Peter Pengilly > wrote:
>
>> Ed,
>>
>> Drifting somewhat from the theme of this list, but to say that alclad
>> doesn't need priming is a bold statement. In Texas maybe, but in a
>> cool maritime climate it isn't really adequate protection against the
>> dreaded metal worm in the long term.
>>
>> For grounding studs I have seen bright zinc plated bolts used with
>> the primer removed from the structure they were inserted into. To
>> make it clear what they are the paint finish was restored with a
>> contrasting colour (blue in this case I'm thinking of against puke
>> yellow primer), but leaving the nut holding the stud in unpainted for
>> good electrical connection.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> On 29/03/2013 02:57, Ed Holyoke wrote:
>>> With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet stock
>>> in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need primer. All
>>> extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to be primed to
>>> prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying surfaces (where two
>>> pieces fit together) and it should certainly be done at dissimilar
>>> metal joints.
>>>
>>> Ed Holyoke
>>>
>>> On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote:
>>>> How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to
>>>> aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
>>>> Bevan
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
>>>> *Ed Holyoke
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
>>>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>>>
>>>> Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will
>>>> donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The
>>>> cadmium is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial
>>>> barrier. Eventually, it has no more ions to donate and loses it's
>>>> value as a corrosion preventative. Time then for new hardware.
>>>> Another approach would be to prime your hardware and install it wet.
>>>>
>>>> Ed Holyoke
>>>>
>>>> On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello Sacha,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts
>>>>> I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel
>>>>> ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium
>>>>> have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I
>>>>> have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the
>>>>> imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a
>>>>> bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J
>>>>>
>>>>> For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they
>>>>> are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a
>>>>> tap or die) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
>>>>>
>>>>> Johannesburg Jay
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>>>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf
>>>>> Of *Sacha
>>>>> *Sent:* 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
>>>>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is
>>>>> and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere
>>>>> in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary.
>>>>> I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but
>>>>> can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj >>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure
>>>>> the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big
>>>>> assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an
>>>>> stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it.
>>>>> Definitely preferable to Phillips.
>>>>>
>>>>> Raymond Julian
>>>>>
>>>>> Kettle River, MN.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
>>>>>
>>>>> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
>>>>>
>>>>> On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx
>>>>> drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
>>>>> Bill Schertz
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM
>>>>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to
>>>>> airframe?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ray checkout
>>>>> http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm
>>>>>
>>>>> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers Werner
>>>>>
>>>>> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head
>>>>> bolts because I
>>>>> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * *
>>>>>
>>>>> * *
>>>>>
>>>>> * *
>>>>>
>>>>> * *
>>>>> * *
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List <3D%22http:/www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>*
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> *http://forums.matronics.com <3D%22http:/forums.matronics.com>*
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution <3D%22http:/www.matronics.com/contribution>*
>>>>> **
>>>>> * *
>>>>> *
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>> ==================================
>> st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> ==================================
>> cs.com
>> ==================================
>> matronics.com/contribution
>> ==================================
>>
>> *
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Corrosion prevention was Blind riveting ground to |
airframe?
Howdy Bob,
I think you're referring to alodine which is a conversion coating. The
proper (by the book) way to prep aluminum for paint is to wet scrub it
with alumaprep and scotchbrite, rinse thoroughly, and soak it in alodine
until it starts to get that golden color and rinse again. Then it should
be primed as soon as it is completely dry. The alumaprep cleans the
surface. The alodine corrodes the surface layer (a few atoms deep) so
that a barrier to further corrosion is created and provides a bit of
"tooth" for the primer to follow. A problem with this process on
completed structures is the difficulty of getting the phosphoric acid
based alumaprep and alodine rinsed out from between riveted structures
and every little nook and cranny. It especially tends to rear its ugly
head on repaints and will later show up as filoform corrosion under the
paint around rivet heads and lap joints.
I did it this way for much of my early build and used the solvent base
Akzo epoxy primer that you can't get anymore. It would be an interesting
experiment to compare the areas that I did that way to the stuff that
I've just wiped with acetone and sprayed with self etching primer in
twenty or thirty years.
Alodined aluminum without primer will probably perform about like alclad
since both processes work by creating a very thin layer of aluminum
oxide on the surface as a barrier to more damaging corrosive processes.
As a prep process for paint, it used to be the only real way to get
primers to grab onto aluminum. This was before epoxy primers. The
instructions for these are now mostly about cleaning and sanding the
surface before application. Completely cured epoxy primer is extremely
tough and very difficult to remove which makes it a good long term
undercoating for paint. By the way, the wash primer that Van's sprays
quickbuild kits with is a form of self etching primer and is a lousy
moisture barrier. It is intended to be painted over within hours, not
left to stand on it's own.
Corrosion only occurs in the presence of an electrolyte, usually
moisture contaminated with dirt, dust, and whatever airborne acids are
around. The whole purpose of any of the available treatments to prevent
or stop the spread of corrosion is to exclude air and the moisture it
contains from the vulnerable metal. The barrier can be a few molecules
thick or a nice coat of paint over well adhered primer. The latter is
obviously more robust and less susceptible to tiny breaches. Another
approach is to spray the interior with CorrosionX or equivalent every
few years (after painting the aircraft please - it weeps from between
joints for a long time).
Between joints is the hardest area to protect and that's why I recommend
that if you're going to prime any aluminum, faying surfaces and
extrusions are the best places to spend your energy. All steel, except
for stainless, must be primed and painted in any case. Powder coating
works well on steel, too.
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
On 3/29/2013 6:18 AM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:
> Good Morning Ed,
> Care to comment as to how well Anodizing works?
> I Anodize all small parts before painting.
> Happy Skies,
> Old Bob
> In a message dated 3/28/2013 10:00:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> bicyclop(at)pacbell.net writes:
>
> With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet
> stock in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need
> primer. All extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to
> be primed to prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying
> surfaces (where two pieces fit together) and it should certainly
> be done at dissimilar metal joints.
>
> Ed Holyoke
>
> On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote:
>> How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets
>> to aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
>> Bevan
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf
>> Of *Ed Holyoke
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>
>> Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum
>> will donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The
>> cadmium is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a
>> sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has no more ions to donate
>> and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time then for
>> new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardware
>> and install it wet.
>>
>> Ed Holyoke
>>
>> On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Sacha,
>>>
>>> I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural
>>> parts I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually
>>> stainless steel ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless
>>> steel and aluminium have relatively close galvanic potentials as
>>> far as I can see. I have given up trying to source, or even
>>> understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far
>>> easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and
>>> M6 nuts. J
>>>
>>> For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they
>>> are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a
>>> tap or die) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
>>>
>>> Johannesburg Jay
>>>
>>> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf
>>> Of *Sacha
>>> *Sent:* 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
>>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>>
>>> Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is
>>> and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere
>>> in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary.
>>> I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some
>>> but can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail
>>> buyer.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be
>>> sure the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering
>>> a big assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten
>>> an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it.
>>> Definitely preferable to Phillips.
>>>
>>> Raymond Julian
>>>
>>> Kettle River, MN.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
>>>
>>> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
>>>
>>> On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
>>>
>>> Schertz"
>>>
>>>
>>> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx
>>> drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
>>> Bill Schertz
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM
>>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to
>>> airframe?
>>>
>>> Schneider
>>>
>>> Ray checkout
>>> http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm
>>>
>>> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws
>>>
>>> Cheers Werner
>>>
>>> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote:
>>>
>>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head
>>> bolts because I
>>> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> * *
>>>
>>> * *
>>>
>>> * *
>>>
>>> * *
>>> * *
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List *
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> *http://forums.matronics.com *
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> **
>>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
>>> **
>>> * *
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>> *
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>> *
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
> *
>
> ist href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
> p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Failed contactor |
At 08:16 AM 4/1/2013, you wrote:
>
>
>Bob,
>
>Just checking to see if you got the junk contactor?
Yes I did. Thank! Haven't had time to open it up
yet.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Corrosion prevention was Blind riveting ground |
to ai...
Good Afternoon Ed,
Thanks for the message!
Obviously, I was thinking Alodine and wrote Anodize!
Alumaprep and Alodine is just what I use. And that is only on parts BEFORE
they are assembled.
I also have the high pressure, fine mist, fogger recommended by Corrosion
X.
Gotta keep those molecules from heading back to dust!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 4/1/2013 12:36:20 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
bicyclop(at)pacbell.net writes:
Howdy Bob,
I think you're referring to alodine which is a conversion coating. The
proper (by the book) way to prep aluminum for paint is to wet scrub it with
alumaprep and scotchbrite, rinse thoroughly, and soak it in alodine until it
starts to get that golden color and rinse again. Then it should be primed
as soon as it is completely dry. The alumaprep cleans the surface. The
alodine corrodes the surface layer (a few atoms deep) so that a barrier to
further corrosion is created and provides a bit of "tooth" for the primer to
follow. A problem with this process on completed structures is the difficulty
of getting the phosphoric acid based alumaprep and alodine rinsed out from
between riveted structures and every little nook and cranny. It especially
tends to rear its ugly head on repaints and will later show up as filoform
corrosion under the paint around rivet heads and lap joints.
I did it this way for much of my early build and used the solvent base
Akzo epoxy primer that you can't get anymore. It would be an interesting
experiment to compare the areas that I did that way to the stuff that I've just
wiped with acetone and sprayed with self etching primer in twenty or thirty
years.
Alodined aluminum without primer will probably perform about like alclad
since both processes work by creating a very thin layer of aluminum oxide on
the surface as a barrier to more damaging corrosive processes. As a prep
process for paint, it used to be the only real way to get primers to grab
onto aluminum. This was before epoxy primers. The instructions for these are
now mostly about cleaning and sanding the surface before application.
Completely cured epoxy primer is extremely tough and very difficult to remove
which makes it a good long term undercoating for paint. By the way, the wash
primer that Van's sprays quickbuild kits with is a form of self etching
primer and is a lousy moisture barrier. It is intended to be painted over
within hours, not left to stand on it's own.
Corrosion only occurs in the presence of an electrolyte, usually moisture
contaminated with dirt, dust, and whatever airborne acids are around. The
whole purpose of any of the available treatments to prevent or stop the
spread of corrosion is to exclude air and the moisture it contains from the
vulnerable metal. The barrier can be a few molecules thick or a nice coat of
paint over well adhered primer. The latter is obviously more robust and less
susceptible to tiny breaches. Another approach is to spray the interior
with CorrosionX or equivalent every few years (after painting the aircraft
please - it weeps from between joints for a long time).
Between joints is the hardest area to protect and that's why I recommend
that if you're going to prime any aluminum, faying surfaces and extrusions
are the best places to spend your energy. All steel, except for stainless,
must be primed and painted in any case. Powder coating works well on steel,
too.
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
Hi Ed,
I agree with most of what you say. I'm in England, there is nowhere here
that is > 50 miles from the sea, and for a lot of the year it is damp
and not very warm. Quickbuild RVs suffer corrosion inside their wings
here and need to be treated with CorrosionX or ACF50 after painting.
There aren't many old C150s or Cherokees either as most of them have
rotted away! So priming is definitely required to protect your
investment ... It takes quite a bit longer, uses nasty chemicals, weighs
more and I hate all the prep and spraying, but there isn't really an
option in this climate.
Peter
On 01/04/2013 17:17, Ed Holyoke wrote:
> Howdy Peter,
>
> Right you are. Alclad isn't perfect, but for most of us it will be
> good enough. Here in California and hangared there really isn't a lot
> of concern about corrosion. This will not be true everywhere and in
> all conditions. That said, how many of our homebuilt airplanes will be
> flying in fifty years? For many of us the aircraft will likely outlive
> us whether or not we prime everything and if we spend so much time
> obsessing about the future life of the aircraft that it doesn't get
> finished until our medicals are no longer renewable..... Well, you get
> the picture. Gotta balance serviceability and utility with getting
> done in time to fly it.
>
> Another factor is of course weight. Priming everything could add say
> five pounds, maybe more. Doesn't seem like much but it tends to add
> up. Folks really like the deep shine of a base/clear coat paint job
> and those tend to be ten or more pounds heavier than single stage to
> color. Can't really see the difference from ten feet, let alone a
> thousand. Some of us pad the whole interior with leather and/or
> carpet. Looks great and reminds of of a luxury car but doesn't improve
> the way the airplane flies.
>
> The great thing about homebuilding is that you can choose what you
> want in a way that certificated aircraft will never do. Maybe you've
> got grandkids who will keep the airplane flying a long time and would
> appreciate having everything primed. If you want to load the panel
> with every possible goodie and don't care about the weight, hey - it's
> your airplane. I'm looking to keep it light while being maintainable.
> I doubt that the alclad skins will show any sign of corrosion in my
> lifetime and then there's always CorrosionX.
>
> Ed Holyoke
>
> On 3/29/2013 2:19 AM, Peter Pengilly wrote:
>> Ed,
>>
>> Drifting somewhat from the theme of this list, but to say that alclad
>> doesn't need priming is a bold statement. In Texas maybe, but in a
>> cool maritime climate it isn't really adequate protection against the
>> dreaded metal worm in the long term.
>>
>> For grounding studs I have seen bright zinc plated bolts used with
>> the primer removed from the structure they were inserted into. To
>> make it clear what they are the paint finish was restored with a
>> contrasting colour (blue in this case I'm thinking of against puke
>> yellow primer), but leaving the nut holding the stud in unpainted for
>> good electrical connection.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> On 29/03/2013 02:57, Ed Holyoke wrote:
>>> With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet stock
>>> in use on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need primer. All
>>> extruded angle and bar stock is not clad and needs to be primed to
>>> prevent corrosion. Many folks prime all faying surfaces (where two
>>> pieces fit together) and it should certainly be done at dissimilar
>>> metal joints.
>>>
>>> Ed Holyoke
>>>
>>> On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote:
>>>> How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to
>>>> aluminum sheet and angle stock play nice together?
>>>> Bevan
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
>>>> *Ed Holyoke
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
>>>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>>>
>>>> Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will
>>>> donate ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The
>>>> cadmium is more anodic than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial
>>>> barrier. Eventually, it has no more ions to donate and loses it's
>>>> value as a corrosion preventative. Time then for new hardware.
>>>> Another approach would be to prime your hardware and install it wet.
>>>>
>>>> Ed Holyoke
>>>>
>>>> On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello Sacha,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts
>>>>> I simply use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel
>>>>> ones to protect against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium
>>>>> have relatively close galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I
>>>>> have given up trying to source, or even understand (!) the
>>>>> imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far easier to walk into a
>>>>> bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J
>>>>>
>>>>> For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they
>>>>> are not too difficult to understand (unless you need to order a
>>>>> tap or die...) ; I order them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
>>>>>
>>>>> Johannesburg Jay
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>>>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf
>>>>> Of *Sacha
>>>>> *Sent:* 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
>>>>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is
>>>>> and where I can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere
>>>>> in Europe, though I'm willing to order from the US if necessary.
>>>>> I've been going nuts (no pun intended) trying to look for some but
>>>>> can only find a few manufacturers, nothing for the retail buyer.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj >>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure
>>>>> the ones I chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big
>>>>> assortment of small AN screws. If I could have gotten an stuff
>>>>> with 6 lobe recess, I would have prefered it. Definitely
>>>>> preferable to Phillips.
>>>>>
>>>>> Raymond Julian
>>>>>
>>>>> Kettle River, MN.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
>>>>>
>>>>> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
>>>>>
>>>>> On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx
>>>>> drive, much nicer for avoiding stripouts like phillips
>>>>> Bill Schertz
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM
>>>>> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to
>>>>> airframe?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ray checkout
>>>>> http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm
>>>>>
>>>>> I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers Werner
>>>>>
>>>>> On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head
>>>>> bolts because I
>>>>> prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * *
>>>>>
>>>>> * *
>>>>>
>>>>> * *
>>>>>
>>>>> * *
>>>>> * *
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List <3D%22http:/www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>*
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> *http://forums.matronics.com <3D%22http:/forums.matronics.com>*
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> **
>>>>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution <3D%22http:/www.matronics.com/contribution>*
>>>>> **
>>>>> * *
>>>>> *
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sacha" <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Blind riveting ground to airframe? |
Same here. Sicily is not as damp as England, but my hangar is only 100m
from the sea. If I leave a screwdriver out of its' box it will rust in a
couple of weeks!
Thanks Ed for the tips
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Pengilly
Sent: Monday, 01 April, 2013 21:42
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Hi Ed,
I agree with most of what you say. I'm in England, there is nowhere here
that is > 50 miles from the sea, and for a lot of the year it is damp and
not very warm. Quickbuild RVs suffer corrosion inside their wings here and
need to be treated with CorrosionX or ACF50 after painting. There aren't
many old C150s or Cherokees either as most of them have rotted away! So
priming is definitely required to protect your investment ... It takes quite
a bit longer, uses nasty chemicals, weighs more and I hate all the prep and
spraying, but there isn't really an option in this climate.
Peter
On 01/04/2013 17:17, Ed Holyoke wrote:
Howdy Peter,
Right you are. Alclad isn't perfect, but for most of us it will be good
enough. Here in California and hangared there really isn't a lot of concern
about corrosion. This will not be true everywhere and in all conditions.
That said, how many of our homebuilt airplanes will be flying in fifty
years? For many of us the aircraft will likely outlive us whether or not we
prime everything and if we spend so much time obsessing about the future
life of the aircraft that it doesn't get finished until our medicals are no
longer renewable..... Well, you get the picture. Gotta balance
serviceability and utility with getting done in time to fly it.
Another factor is of course weight. Priming everything could add say five
pounds, maybe more. Doesn't seem like much but it tends to add up. Folks
really like the deep shine of a base/clear coat paint job and those tend to
be ten or more pounds heavier than single stage to color. Can't really see
the difference from ten feet, let alone a thousand. Some of us pad the whole
interior with leather and/or carpet. Looks great and reminds of of a luxury
car but doesn't improve the way the airplane flies.
The great thing about homebuilding is that you can choose what you want in a
way that certificated aircraft will never do. Maybe you've got grandkids who
will keep the airplane flying a long time and would appreciate having
everything primed. If you want to load the panel with every possible goodie
and don't care about the weight, hey - it's your airplane. I'm looking to
keep it light while being maintainable. I doubt that the alclad skins will
show any sign of corrosion in my lifetime and then there's always
CorrosionX.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/29/2013 2:19 AM, Peter Pengilly wrote:
Ed,
Drifting somewhat from the theme of this list, but to say that alclad
doesn't need priming is a bold statement. In Texas maybe, but in a cool
maritime climate it isn't really adequate protection against the dreaded
metal worm in the long term.
For grounding studs I have seen bright zinc plated bolts used with the
primer removed from the structure they were inserted into. To make it clear
what they are the paint finish was restored with a contrasting colour (blue
in this case I'm thinking of against puke yellow primer), but leaving the
nut holding the stud in unpainted for good electrical connection.
Peter
On 29/03/2013 02:57, Ed Holyoke wrote:
With primer barriers, particularly on the aluminum. Most sheet stock in use
on kitplanes is alclad and doesn't generally need primer. All extruded angle
and bar stock is not clad and needs to be primed to prevent corrosion. Many
folks prime all faying surfaces (where two pieces fit together) and it
should certainly be done at dissimilar metal joints.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/27/2013 11:16 PM, B Tomm wrote:
How does the the stainless firewall riveted with aluminum rivets to aluminum
sheet and angle stock play nice together?
Bevan
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed
Holyoke
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Stainless and aluminum don't play nice together. The aluminum will donate
ions and corrode. Cad plated steel is the AN way. The cadmium is more anodic
than the aluminum and acts as a sacrificial barrier. Eventually, it has no
more ions to donate and loses it's value as a corrosion preventative. Time
then for new hardware. Another approach would be to prime your hardware and
install it wet.
Ed Holyoke
On 3/26/2013 7:25 AM, Jay Hyde wrote:
Hello Sacha,
I have the same problem in South Africa. For non structural parts I simply
use Metric sized bolts and nuts; usually stainless steel ones to protect
against corrosion. Stainless steel and aluminium have relatively close
galvanic potentials as far as I can see. I have given up trying to source,
or even understand (!) the imperial nut and bolt thread system; its far
easier to walk into a bolt store and ask for M6 x 25mm bolts and M6 nuts. J
For structural parts you must however use AN fasteners and they are not too
difficult to understand (unless you need to order a tap or die.) ; I order
them directly from Aircraft Spruce in the US.
Johannesburg Jay
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha
Sent: 26 March 2013 03:58 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Does anyone know what the METRIC equivalent of an AN fastener is and where I
can buy some? I'm in Italy, so preferably somewhere in Europe, though I'm
willing to order from the US if necessary. I've been going nuts (no pun
intended) trying to look for some but can only find a few manufacturers,
nothing for the retail buyer.
On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:42, rayj wrote:
Looks like a great source for fasteners. I wanted to be sure the ones I
chose were to an specs. I ended up ordering a big assortment of small AN
screws. If I could have gotten an stuff with 6 lobe recess, I would have
prefered it. Definitely preferable to Phillips.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 03/26/2013 07:20 AM, William Schertz wrote:
Also note that they carry 100 degree flat head with Torx drive, much nicer
for avoiding stripouts like phillips
Bill Schertz
-----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:41 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blind riveting ground to airframe?
Ray checkout http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSC.cfm
I replaced nearly all of my Phillips with the 6 lobe screws
Cheers Werner
On 25.03.2013 22:21, rayj wrote:
Agreed. I was looking for some "blessed" #10 hex head bolts because I
prefer a hex head over slotted or phillips screw heads.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href=
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href=
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href=
"http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andy <crabandy(at)yahoo.com> |
The drawing http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/Diode_Installation.pdf
=46rom B and C shows both ~ (I don't have the correct symbol horizontal s wi
th -) terminals powered from the main bus with the + going to the Ebus and -
unused.
Question: I could run power from the main bus to either ~ terminal and power
the Ebus?
Powering both ~ terminals gains a little redundancy to power the Ebus?
Thanks,
Andy
Sent from my iPhone
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net> |
Andy,
<< Question: I could run power from the main bus to either ~ terminal and
power the Ebus? >>
Yes, but this misses the purpose of connecting both AC terminals (~) to the
source. The package has 4 diodes. It is used everywhere as an AC to DC
rectifier. In theory you could use one high current diode but the cost of
the same capacity is much higher than the 4 diode package due to the very
high economy of scale from the 4 diode configuration even though we are
"wasting" diodes. The mounting for this package is also simpler.
The main enemy of semiconductors is heat. With the connection to two
divides in parallel the current between them is divided, not evenly divided
but still shared between the two. This spreads out the heat generation
which makes the device more robust.
<< Powering both ~ terminals gains a little redundancy to power the Ebus?
>>
As is hopefully explained above, the reason for using both ~ terminals is
spreading out the heat generation, not redundancy. If you have an Ebus
current of 15 amps, even if one diode carries 10 amps and the other only 5
amps, you are stressing the part less than having all 15 amps going through
1 diode. In other words, there is a good reason for connecting the source
to both ~ terminals which is what you should do.
Tom Kuffel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andy <crabandy(at)yahoo.com> |
Great explanation!
Thanks,
Andy
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 2, 2013, at 11:13 AM, "The Kuffels" wrote:
>
> Andy,
>
> << Question: I could run power from the main bus to either ~ terminal and power
the Ebus? >>
>
> Yes, but this misses the purpose of connecting both AC terminals (~) to the source.
The package has 4 diodes. It is used everywhere as an AC to DC rectifier.
In theory you could use one high current diode but the cost of the same
capacity is much higher than the 4 diode package due to the very high economy
of scale from the 4 diode configuration even though we are "wasting" diodes.
The mounting for this package is also simpler.
>
> The main enemy of semiconductors is heat. With the connection to two divides
in parallel the current between them is divided, not evenly divided but still
shared between the two. This spreads out the heat generation which makes the
device more robust.
>
> << Powering both ~ terminals gains a little redundancy to power the Ebus? >>
>
> As is hopefully explained above, the reason for using both ~ terminals is spreading
out the heat generation, not redundancy. If you have an Ebus current of
15 amps, even if one diode carries 10 amps and the other only 5 amps, you are
stressing the part less than having all 15 amps going through 1 diode. In other
words, there is a good reason for connecting the source to both ~ terminals
which is what you should do.
>
> Tom Kuffel
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 09:56 AM 4/2/2013, you wrote:
>The drawing
><http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/Diode_Installation.pdf>http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/Diode_Installation.pdf
> From B and C shows both ~ (I don't have the correct symbol
> horizontal s with -) terminals powered from the main bus with the +
> going to the Ebus and - unused.
>Question: I could run power from the main bus to either ~ terminal
>and power the Ebus?
>Powering both ~ terminals gains a little redundancy to power the Ebus?
No 'redundancy' just a potential tiny improvement in
thermal modeling. Not a big deal one way or another.
Run main bus power to either one or both AC input
terminals, one wire from (+) to e-bus.
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | LED strip lighting for panels |
If your airplane has a glare shield, you can
consider the used of LED strip lights similar
to these.
http://tinyurl.com/c3wozbj
These strips are assembled from an array
of LED trios in series fitted with the appropriate
series resistor to provide max illumination with
12vdc applied. Each trio occupies about 2" of
length.
Three white lights in series do not begin to
output until applied voltage rises to 7.5 volts
or so. At 12 volts, each group of 3 lamps
(about 2" in length) draws about 25 milliamps.
Assume you need 36" of strip to stretch
across the glare shield (18 trios). You'll
need a dimmer control capable of carrying
18 x .025 or 0.45 amps. This relatively
low current draw makes the noise-free, linear
regulators more attractive. Referring to this
drawing
http://tinyurl.com/ccrpzfa
You see the architecture for a dimmer set up for
incandescent lamps. I.e. 4.5 volts minimum. For service
with these strips, the minimum needs to be raised to
7.5 volts. Further, we want to fix the adjustment
range at 7.5 - 12v or a delta-V of 3.5 volts.
Since our stock "pot" is 2.5K, then to get 3.5
volts dropped across the pot at max resistance,
we need a divider current of 3.5/2500 or 1.4 milliamps.
The voltage across the upper resistor is fixed at
1.25 volts by internal characteristics of the
317 regulator. 1.25V/0.0014A = 892 (910 ohms
is close enough and a standard 5% value).
Okay, with the pot at min resistance, we need
7.5 volts total output. (7.5 - 1.25)/0.0014
equals 4464 ohms (4700 is also a standard
value and sufficiently close).
So, if you'd care to build your own dimmer the
390 ohm resistor is replaced with a 910 ohm
resistor; the 910 ohm resistor is replaced with
a 4700 ohm resistor. The TO220 plastic package
version of the LM317 on a modicum of heatsink
would be 'fat' enough and entirely free of noise.
That 15-foot chunk of strip lighting for $20 is
delivered toyour door at that price and is probably
enough lighting to do 5 airplanes. I've copied B&C
on this posting to see if they'd be interested in
offering an LED strip light version of their DIM5-14
product.
http://tinyurl.com/dylkufj
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED strip lighting for panels |
Bob,
Do I understand correctly that you are controlling LED brightness by
varying the voltage?
My understanding was that a PWM was needed to dim LEDs. Of course, I've
been wrong before. :>)
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 04/02/2013 02:12 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> If your airplane has a glare shield, you can
> consider the used of LED strip lights similar
> to these.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/c3wozbj
>
> <http://tinyurl.com/c3wozbj>These strips are assembled from an array
> of LED trios in series fitted with the appropriate
> series resistor to provide max illumination with
> 12vdc applied. Each trio occupies about 2" of
> length.
>
> Three white lights in series do not begin to
> output until applied voltage rises to 7.5 volts
> or so. At 12 volts, each group of 3 lamps
> (about 2" in length) draws about 25 milliamps.
>
> Assume you need 36" of strip to stretch
> across the glare shield (18 trios). You'll
> need a dimmer control capable of carrying
> 18 x .025 or 0.45 amps. This relatively
> low current draw makes the noise-free, linear
> regulators more attractive. Referring to this
> drawing
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ccrpzfa
>
> You see the architecture for a dimmer set up for
> incandescent lamps. I.e. 4.5 volts minimum. For service
> with these strips, the minimum needs to be raised to
> 7.5 volts. Further, we want to fix the adjustment
> range at 7.5 - 12v or a delta-V of 3.5 volts.
>
> Since our stock "pot" is 2.5K, then to get 3.5
> volts dropped across the pot at max resistance,
> we need a divider current of 3.5/2500 or 1.4 milliamps.
>
> The voltage across the upper resistor is fixed at
> 1.25 volts by internal characteristics of the
> 317 regulator. 1.25V/0.0014A = 892 (910 ohms
> is close enough and a standard 5% value).
>
> Okay, with the pot at min resistance, we need
> 7.5 volts total output. (7.5 - 1.25)/0.0014
> equals 4464 ohms (4700 is also a standard
> value and sufficiently close).
>
> So, if you'd care to build your own dimmer the
> 390 ohm resistor is replaced with a 910 ohm
> resistor; the 910 ohm resistor is replaced with
> a 4700 ohm resistor. The TO220 plastic package
> version of the LM317 on a modicum of heatsink
> would be 'fat' enough and entirely free of noise.
>
> That 15-foot chunk of strip lighting for $20 is
> delivered toyour door at that price and is probably
> enough lighting to do 5 airplanes. I've copied B&C
> on this posting to see if they'd be interested in
> offering an LED strip light version of their DIM5-14
> product.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/dylkufj
>
> <http://tinyurl.com/dylkufj>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Josephson <dlj04(at)josephson.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dolphin Electrical Wire Connectors |
It might not have been intended as an April Fools joke, but it should
be. Those are "B" connectors, aka "beans" used by the telephone company
since the 1950s and intended for use in splicing telephone wires. They
do not work reliably for stranded wire. For their intended purpose,
which is joining *solid* conductors that don't ever move, they are fine
if you use the correct tool (formerly known as a "beaner.") I cannot
think of an airworthy use anywhere in an airplane (unless in your tool
bag going somewhere to fix a telephone line.)
On 4/1/13 11:58 PM, AeroElectric-List Digest Server wrote:
> From: "Owen Baker "<bakerocb(at)cox.net>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dolphin Electrical Wire Connectors
>
> 4/1/2013
>
> Hello Bob Nuckolls, It has been suggested that I use these Dolphin
> DC-100- P or -S insulation piercing type electrical wire connectors for
> low amperage wire connection usage, such as a Ray Allen trim servo, in
> my experimental amateur built airplane:
>
> http://dolphincomponents.com/catalogs/Section%20A%20-%20Super%20B%20stand
> ard-3207.pdf
>
> What do you think? Thank you.
>
> Owen C. Baker
>
> PS: This is not intended as an April Fools Day joke.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Fisher Paul A." <FisherPaulA(at)johndeere.com> |
| Subject: | LED strip lighting for panels |
I'm doing exactly that in my plane using red LED's instead of white. I've
got them installed by not wired yet (been too cold at the hanger!). I'm pl
anning to use one of Eric's dimmers (http://www.periheliondesign.com/egpavr
.htm). I've tested the lights and dimmer in the shop and it all seems to w
ork well. I'll have to wait for some dark night to see how effective they
actually are in the plane. I'm actually more concerned about having too m
uch light. But so far it appears that I can dial it down far enough to not
overpower my night vision.
Paul A. Fisher
RV-7A N18PF
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr
ic-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 2:12 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: LED strip lighting for panels
If your airplane has a glare shield, you can
consider the used of LED strip lights similar
to these.
http://tinyurl.com/c3wozbj
... snip ...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LED strip lighting for panels |
At 02:35 PM 4/2/2013, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
>Do I understand correctly that you are controlling LED brightness by
>varying the voltage?
>
>My understanding was that a PWM was needed to dim LEDs. Of course,
>I've been wrong before. :>)
Not necessarily. The LED strip lights come with resistors
built in . . . these resistors combined with
minimum voltage necessary to get first light offers
an opportunity to dim either way. You wouldn't necessarily
want to do this to 'dim' high power leds . . . but the sum
total of power for a few feet of strip lets us consider
the linear, noise free option.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net> |
| Subject: | LED strip lighting for panels |
I used very similar lighting strips in my RV7A. At the the time the only
place I found them was on Ebay from HongKong, but shipping was cheap. These
work well with a two channel dimmer I already had from Steinair. One
channel is used for the incandescent and the other for the LED strips as
they dim as a different rate. I'm very happy with the results and would
have bought from B n C if they stocked it.
I would also have bought the dropping resistors from B no for the wigwag
flasher but they don't stock them. nudge nudge.
Bevan
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 12:12 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: LED strip lighting for panels
If your airplane has a glare shield, you can
consider the used of LED strip lights similar
to these.
http://tinyurl.com/c3wozbj
These strips are assembled from an array
of LED trios in series fitted with the appropriate
series resistor to provide max illumination with
12vdc applied. Each trio occupies about 2" of
length.
Three white lights in series do not begin to
output until applied voltage rises to 7.5 volts
or so. At 12 volts, each group of 3 lamps
(about 2" in length) draws about 25 milliamps.
Assume you need 36" of strip to stretch
across the glare shield (18 trios). You'll
need a dimmer control capable of carrying
18 x .025 or 0.45 amps. This relatively
low current draw makes the noise-free, linear
regulators more attractive. Referring to this
drawing
http://tinyurl.com/ccrpzfa
You see the architecture for a dimmer set up for
incandescent lamps. I.e. 4.5 volts minimum. For service
with these strips, the minimum needs to be raised to
7.5 volts. Further, we want to fix the adjustment
range at 7.5 - 12v or a delta-V of 3.5 volts.
Since our stock "pot" is 2.5K, then to get 3.5
volts dropped across the pot at max resistance,
we need a divider current of 3.5/2500 or 1.4 milliamps.
The voltage across the upper resistor is fixed at
1.25 volts by internal characteristics of the
317 regulator. 1.25V/0.0014A = 892 (910 ohms
is close enough and a standard 5% value).
Okay, with the pot at min resistance, we need
7.5 volts total output. (7.5 - 1.25)/0.0014
equals 4464 ohms (4700 is also a standard
value and sufficiently close).
So, if you'd care to build your own dimmer the
390 ohm resistor is replaced with a 910 ohm
resistor; the 910 ohm resistor is replaced with
a 4700 ohm resistor. The TO220 plastic package
version of the LM317 on a modicum of heatsink
would be 'fat' enough and entirely free of noise.
That 15-foot chunk of strip lighting for $20 is
delivered toyour door at that price and is probably
enough lighting to do 5 airplanes. I've copied B&C
on this posting to see if they'd be interested in
offering an LED strip light version of their DIM5-14
product.
http://tinyurl.com/dylkufj
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LED strip lighting for panels |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III a crit :
> If your airplane has a glare shield, you can
> consider the used of LED strip lights similar
> to these.
Hi Bob and all,
Just for the fun, this is what we did.
(Hope attachments are allowed).
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Kilford <james(at)etravel.org> |
On a related note, is there a way to determine if a heatsink is large
enough?
I made a heatsink out of some scrap .020" aluminium -- half a dozen pieces
of varying lengths, stacked and folded up at the ends to form fins. I've
bolted it under the rectifier with some heatsink paste.
Seems like quite a lot of aluminium, and plenty of surface area, but it
would nice to find a way of evaluating its effectiveness... other than
waiting for the smell of burning semiconductor...
Many thanks,
James
On 2 April 2013 16:38, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 09:56 AM 4/2/2013, you wrote:
>
> The drawing http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/Diode_Installation.pdf
> From B and C shows both ~ (I don't have the correct symbol horizontal s
> with -) terminals powered from the main bus with the + going to the Ebus
> and - unused.
> Question: I could run power from the main bus to either ~ terminal and
> power the Ebus?
> Powering both ~ terminals gains a little redundancy to power the Ebus?
>
>
> No 'redundancy' just a potential tiny improvement in
> thermal modeling. Not a big deal one way or another.
> Run main bus power to either one or both AC input
> terminals, one wire from (+) to e-bus.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> **
>
> ** Bob . . .
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 07:31 AM 4/3/2013, you wrote:
>On a related note, is there a way to determine
>if a heatsink is large enough?
>
>I made a heatsink out of some scrap .020"
>aluminium -- half a dozen pieces of varying
>lengths, stacked and folded up at the ends to
>form fins. I've bolted it under the rectifier with some heatsink paste.
>
>Seems like quite a lot of aluminium, and plenty
>of surface area, but it would nice to find a way
>of evaluating its effectiveness... other than
>waiting for the smell of burning semiconductor...
What are your e-bus normal running loads?
I would not expect loads of 10A or less to
call for anything other than to simply mount
the diode a metal surface in the airplane.
I could run some tests here for higher currents
but keep in mind that the e-bus is for 'endurance'
loads . . . minimal equipment to conduct the
en route phase of flight . . . reduced energy
demands to save the battery for approach to
landing.
I suggested that big fat diode because of it's
convenience for mounting and wiring. The fact that
it is rated for 25 or 35 amps was in no way intended
to suggest that e-bus loads should/could be
that large.
The e-bus is a risk reduction feature that is
not likely to be needed more than once over the
lifetime of your airplane. It's a feature that
offers a degrees of System Reliability that
reduces probability that a main alternator failure
will cause you to break a sweat.
As a renter, I have never enjoyed access to features
that we're building into OBAM aircraft. My personal
endurance package was carried around in the flight
bag. http://tinyurl.com/d5mrjgh
In fact, I've not turned a VOR receiver on in nearly
20 years. Not since I discovered the capabilities
of hand-held GPS receivers that were so cheap I could
give them away as door prizes at my seminars! My last
cross-country sojourns were managed with dual
GPS receivers stuck between the glare-shield and
windshield with little wads of windshield sealant.
It didn't matter if the airplane was a J-3 or A-36,
I was confident in my ability to get from point A to
Point B whether the ship's electrical system was
fully functional or not. That's a high degree of
failure tolerance and system reliability.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Kilford <james(at)etravel.org> |
Thanks Bob, I have a theoretical max load of a little under 7A.
I agree with your sentiments about the essential bus. I don't anticipate
needing it... but it's nice to know that it's there...
James
On 3 April 2013 14:52, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com**>
>
> At 07:31 AM 4/3/2013, you wrote:
>
>> On a related note, is there a way to determine if a heatsink is large
>> enough? =C3=82
>>
>> I made a heatsink out of some scrap .020" aluminium -- half a dozen
>> pieces of varying lengths, stacked and folded up at the ends to form fin
s.
>> =C3=82 I've bolted it under the rectifier with some heatsink paste. =C3
=82
>>
>>
>> Seems like quite a lot of aluminium, and plenty of surface area, but it
>> would nice to find a way of evaluating its effectiveness... other than
>> waiting for the smell of burning semiconductor...
>>
>
> What are your e-bus normal running loads?
> I would not expect loads of 10A or less to
> call for anything other than to simply mount
> the diode a metal surface in the airplane.
>
> I could run some tests here for higher currents
> but keep in mind that the e-bus is for 'endurance'
> loads . . . minimal equipment to conduct the
> en route phase of flight . . . reduced energy
> demands to save the battery for approach to
> landing.
>
> I suggested that big fat diode because of it's
> convenience for mounting and wiring. The fact that
> it is rated for 25 or 35 amps was in no way intended
> to suggest that e-bus loads should/could be
> that large.
>
> The e-bus is a risk reduction feature that is
> not likely to be needed more than once over the
> lifetime of your airplane. It's a feature that
> offers a degrees of System Reliability that
> reduces probability that a main alternator failure
> will cause you to break a sweat.
>
> As a renter, I have never enjoyed access to features
> that we're building into OBAM aircraft. My personal
> endurance package was carried around in the flight
> bag. http://tinyurl.com/d5mrjgh
>
> In fact, I've not turned a VOR receiver on in nearly
> 20 years. Not since I discovered the capabilities
> of hand-held GPS receivers that were so cheap I could
> give them away as door prizes at my seminars! My last
> cross-country sojourns were managed with dual
> GPS receivers stuck between the glare-shield and
> windshield with little wads of windshield sealant.
>
> It didn't matter if the airplane was a J-3 or A-36,
> I was confident in my ability to get from point A to
> Point B whether the ship's electrical system was
> fully functional or not. That's a high degree of
> failure tolerance and system reliability.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
=====**===================
===========**=
/www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>
=====**===================
===========**=
=====**===================
===========**=
com/contribution>
=====**===================
===========**=
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
James, One of these should give you some numbers to play with to see how
well your heatsink is working as you ebuss is loaded up.
http://www.harborfreight.com/infrared-thermometer-with-laser-targeting-non-
contact-69465.html
Harbor Freight has a coupon out this month that reduces the price a further
$10 to $25.99.
Just a thought
Rick Girard
On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 9:41 AM, James Kilford wrote:
> Thanks Bob, I have a theoretical max load of a little under 7A.
>
> I agree with your sentiments about the essential bus. I don't anticipate
> needing it... but it's nice to know that it's there...
>
> James
>
> On 3 April 2013 14:52, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com**>
>>
>> At 07:31 AM 4/3/2013, you wrote:
>>
>>> On a related note, is there a way to determine if a heatsink is large
>>> enough? =C2
>>>
>>> I made a heatsink out of some scrap .020" aluminium -- half a dozen
>>> pieces of varying lengths, stacked and folded up at the ends to form fi
ns.
>>> =C2 I've bolted it under the rectifier with some heatsink paste. =C2
>>>
>>>
>>> Seems like quite a lot of aluminium, and plenty of surface area, but it
>>> would nice to find a way of evaluating its effectiveness... other than
>>> waiting for the smell of burning semiconductor...
>>>
>>
>> What are your e-bus normal running loads?
>> I would not expect loads of 10A or less to
>> call for anything other than to simply mount
>> the diode a metal surface in the airplane.
>>
>> I could run some tests here for higher currents
>> but keep in mind that the e-bus is for 'endurance'
>> loads . . . minimal equipment to conduct the
>> en route phase of flight . . . reduced energy
>> demands to save the battery for approach to
>> landing.
>>
>> I suggested that big fat diode because of it's
>> convenience for mounting and wiring. The fact that
>> it is rated for 25 or 35 amps was in no way intended
>> to suggest that e-bus loads should/could be
>> that large.
>>
>> The e-bus is a risk reduction feature that is
>> not likely to be needed more than once over the
>> lifetime of your airplane. It's a feature that
>> offers a degrees of System Reliability that
>> reduces probability that a main alternator failure
>> will cause you to break a sweat.
>>
>> As a renter, I have never enjoyed access to features
>> that we're building into OBAM aircraft. My personal
>> endurance package was carried around in the flight
>> bag. http://tinyurl.com/d5mrjgh
>>
>> In fact, I've not turned a VOR receiver on in nearly
>> 20 years. Not since I discovered the capabilities
>> of hand-held GPS receivers that were so cheap I could
>> give them away as door prizes at my seminars! My last
>> cross-country sojourns were managed with dual
>> GPS receivers stuck between the glare-shield and
>> windshield with little wads of windshield sealant.
>>
>> It didn't matter if the airplane was a J-3 or A-36,
>> I was confident in my ability to get from point A to
>> Point B whether the ship's electrical system was
>> fully functional or not. That's a high degree of
>> failure tolerance and system reliability.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>> ====**===================
===========**=
>> -
>> ric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/**
>> Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> ====**===================
===========**=
>> MS -
>> k">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ====**===================
===========**=
>> e -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/**contribution
>> ====**===================
===========**=
>>
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 09:41 AM 4/3/2013, you wrote:
>Thanks Bob, I have a theoretical max load of a little under 7A.
>
>I agree with your sentiments about the essential
>bus. I don't anticipate needing it... but it's
>nice to know that it's there...
Very good. No 'extra' heat sinking necessary.
Just bolt it to a metallic surface.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Kilford <james(at)etravel.org> |
Well, that's more tricky. The firewall on this plane (Jodel) is a
sandwich of plywood and balsa... so I'm hoping the heatsink will
suffice. Worse-case scenario -- I could move the diode to the engine
compartment side of the firewall, which is covered with a thin sheet
of stainless steel.
James
On 3 April 2013 17:29, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
>
>
> At 09:41 AM 4/3/2013, you wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Bob, I have a theoretical max load of a little under 7A.
>>
>> I agree with your sentiments about the essential bus. I don't anticipate
>> needing it... but it's nice to know that it's there...
>
>
> Very good. No 'extra' heat sinking necessary.
> Just bolt it to a metallic surface.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | heat treat problem |
I've got a project that hit a bit of a snag. I'm
building a recovery parachute control system that
uses a t-handle to deploy the parachute. I found
a really handy size T-handle in McMaster-Carr
and proceed with my endeavors.
One of the last operations during assembly called for
cutting the shaft of the t-handle to length and then
drilling a 3/16" hole in the last 1/2". The hole
accepts a roll-pin that runs in the slot on a guide
collar to set stroke of the handle and to restrain
rotation.
Emacs!
When I cut the shaft with an abrasive cut-off wheel, the
it turned out to bet harder than the hubs-of-you-know-what.
It's the right length but now I need to drill the hole. No
chance with any tools I have.
I think I recall that steel can be heated to some pretty
ordinary temperatures (less than incandescent) and cooled
slowly to remove the heat treat. Strength in this area is
very un-critical. I can put a thermocouple on it and heat
with a torch. I've browsed some heat-treat documents
but the without some time consuming study, no immediate
notions of process jumped out. I need to soften this part
so that I can drill it with ordinary high-speed drills.
Are there any folks on the list with some practical experience
in this area? Hoping to deliver this thing tomorrow but
it ain't gonna happen without the pin installed. Any
suggestions from the List?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Lehman" <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: heat treat problem |
I don't do a lot of this but if it is carbon steel just heat it up to a
nice red color and air cool it. The hardening only occurs if it is shock
cooled in oil or water or the attached heat sink is relatively massive.
A room temperature slow cool should take out the hardness.
A good carbide masonry bit running slow will sometimes go through pretty
hard steel. A hardware store cobalt bit is dramatically better than an
High Speed Steel bit.
Ken
>
>
> I've got a project that hit a bit of a snag. I'm
> building a recovery parachute control system that
> uses a t-handle to deploy the parachute. I found
> a really handy size T-handle in McMaster-Carr
> and proceed with my endeavors.
>
> One of the last operations during assembly called for
> cutting the shaft of the t-handle to length and then
> drilling a 3/16" hole in the last 1/2". The hole
> accepts a roll-pin that runs in the slot on a guide
> collar to set stroke of the handle and to restrain
> rotation.
>
> Emacs!
>
>
> When I cut the shaft with an abrasive cut-off wheel, the
> it turned out to bet harder than the hubs-of-you-know-what.
> It's the right length but now I need to drill the hole. No
> chance with any tools I have.
>
> I think I recall that steel can be heated to some pretty
> ordinary temperatures (less than incandescent) and cooled
> slowly to remove the heat treat. Strength in this area is
> very un-critical. I can put a thermocouple on it and heat
> with a torch. I've browsed some heat-treat documents
> but the without some time consuming study, no immediate
> notions of process jumped out. I need to soften this part
> so that I can drill it with ordinary high-speed drills.
>
> Are there any folks on the list with some practical experience
> in this area? Hoping to deliver this thing tomorrow but
> it ain't gonna happen without the pin installed. Any
> suggestions from the List?
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: heat treat problem |
| From: | "racerjerry" <gki(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> |
EDM aka Electrical Discharge Machining. Google it for a machine shop that has
that capability in your area. EDM easily penetrates any conductive material.
Good luck, Bob
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397758#397758
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | chris smale <csmale(at)bak.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: heat treat problem |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 11:45 AM 4/3/2013, you wrote:
>
>Well, that's more tricky. The firewall on this plane (Jodel) is a
>sandwich of plywood and balsa... so I'm hoping the heatsink will
>suffice. Worse-case scenario -- I could move the diode to the engine
>compartment side of the firewall, which is covered with a thin sheet
>of stainless steel.
Hmmmm . . . okay. The heat sink you built
up from sheet metal will be fine. Don't
move it to the other side of the firewall.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "rv7a.builder" <rv7a.builder(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: heat treat problem |
Is EDM an option?=0A=0A=0AFrom: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aer
oelectric.com>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, Ap
ril 3, 2013 10:32 AM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: heat treat problem=0A=0A
=0AI've got a project that hit a bit of a snag. I'm=0Abuilding a recovery p
arachute control system that=0Auses a t-handle to deploy the parachute. I f
ound=0Aa really handy size T-handle in McMaster-Carr=0Aand proceed with my
endeavors.=0A=0AOne of the last operations during assembly called for=0Acut
ting the shaft of the t-handle to length and then=0Adrilling a 3/16" hole i
n the last 1/2".- The hole=0Aaccepts a roll-pin that runs in the slot on
a guide=0Acollar to set stroke of the handle and to restrain=0Arotation.=0A
=0A=0A=0AWhen I cut the shaft with an abrasive cut-off wheel, the=0Ait turn
ed out to bet harder than the hubs-of-you-know-what.=0AIt's the right lengt
h but now I need to drill the hole. No=0Achance with any tools I have.=0A
=0AI think I recall that steel can be heated to some pretty=0Aordinary temp
eratures (less than incandescent) and cooled=0Aslowly to remove the heat tr
eat. Strength in this area is=0Avery un-critical. I can put a thermocouple
on it and heat=0Awith a torch. I've browsed some heat-treat documents=0Abut
the without some time consuming study, no immediate=0Anotions of process j
umped out. I need to soften this part=0Aso that I can drill it with ordinar
y high-speed drills.=0A=0AAre there any folks on the list with some practic
al experience=0Ain this area? Hoping to deliver this thing tomorrow but=0Ai
t ain't gonna happen without the pin installed. Any=0Asuggestions from the
List?=0A=0A- Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mark Wesson" <Mark(at)wessonair.com> |
| Subject: | heat treat problem |
There are many people that will say duh, but there may be a few that will
later thank me.
I have heard many complain about drilling the stainless firewall and taking
an hour and one drill bit per hole.
I will share what I learned the hard way.
I am able to drill the stainless in less that one minute and not dull a bit.
It is all about removing heat from the drill bit and the part you are
drilling.
If you use a high speed and it doesn't cut it will burn up the bit.
In order to remove the heat you need to have chips flying.
Aluminum is soft so the 4000rpm air drills we use work fine.
The chips are a flying carring the heat away.
For harder metals you need to increase the pressure and slow the bit down
until the chips fly.
It is as easy as that. Slow the drill speed down and increase the pressure
until the heat is removed by flying metal chips.
Now I have not tried anything too hard since I learned this but I sure have
made butter out of the stainless that other people complain about.
Mark W
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: heat treat problem |
Good Afternoon Bob,
Maybe this will jog a few memories.
Back when I was in High School (Seventy Years Ago) My shop teacher taught
us how to make great hunting knives out of worn out files, We heated them
with an acetylene torch to bright red then stuck them into some sort of
powder to cool. Once they had cooled they were very easy to grind to the knife
shape.
We then heated them back up again and quenched them in a light oil to
harden the edge.
My thought is that the powder we slow cooled them in was ordinary baking
flour. Anyone know for sure?
I am also fuzzy on just what liquid we used for the quick cool. May have
been something other than light oil. All very far back in my faulty memory,
but maybe that will jog some one else's memory. Worked like a champ to
turn those files in hunting knives.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 4/3/2013 1:13:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com writes:
I've got a project that hit a bit of a snag. I'm
building a recovery parachute control system that
uses a t-handle to deploy the parachute. I found
a really handy size T-handle in McMaster-Carr
and proceed with my endeavors.
One of the last operations during assembly called for
cutting the shaft of the t-handle to length and then
drilling a 3/16" hole in the last 1/2". The hole
accepts a roll-pin that runs in the slot on a guide
collar to set stroke of the handle and to restrain
rotation.
When I cut the shaft with an abrasive cut-off wheel, the
it turned out to bet harder than the hubs-of-you-know-what.
It's the right length but now I need to drill the hole. No
chance with any tools I have.
I think I recall that steel can be heated to some pretty
ordinary temperatures (less than incandescent) and cooled
slowly to remove the heat treat. Strength in this area is
very un-critical. I can put a thermocouple on it and heat
with a torch. I've browsed some heat-treat documents
but the without some time consuming study, no immediate
notions of process jumped out. I need to soften this part
so that I can drill it with ordinary high-speed drills.
Are there any folks on the list with some practical experience
in this area? Hoping to deliver this thing tomorrow but
it ain't gonna happen without the pin installed. Any
suggestions from the List?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RGent1224(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: heat treat problem |
Old Bob
Probably that far back in our high school days it was sand any how that is
what my dad taught me to use when converting the worn out file to something
useful
Older Dick
In a message dated 4/3/2013 1:54:16 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes:
Good Afternoon Bob,
Maybe this will jog a few memories.
Back when I was in High School (Seventy Years Ago) My shop teacher taught
us how to make great hunting knives out of worn out files, We heated them
with an acetylene torch to bright red then stuck them into some sort of
powder to cool. Once they had cooled they were very easy to grind to the knife
shape.
We then heated them back up again and quenched them in a light oil to
harden the edge.
My thought is that the powder we slow cooled them in was ordinary baking
flour. Anyone know for sure?
I am also fuzzy on just what liquid we used for the quick cool. May have
been something other than light oil. All very far back in my faulty memory,
but maybe that will jog some one else's memory. Worked like a champ to
turn those files in hunting knives.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 4/3/2013 1:13:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com writes:
I've got a project that hit a bit of a snag. I'm
building a recovery parachute control system that
uses a t-handle to deploy the parachute. I found
a really handy size T-handle in McMaster-Carr
and proceed with my endeavors.
One of the last operations during assembly called for
cutting the shaft of the t-handle to length and then
drilling a 3/16" hole in the last 1/2". The hole
accepts a roll-pin that runs in the slot on a guide
collar to set stroke of the handle and to restrain
rotation.
When I cut the shaft with an abrasive cut-off wheel, the
it turned out to bet harder than the hubs-of-you-know-what.
It's the right length but now I need to drill the hole. No
chance with any tools I have.
I think I recall that steel can be heated to some pretty
ordinary temperatures (less than incandescent) and cooled
slowly to remove the heat treat. Strength in this area is
very un-critical. I can put a thermocouple on it and heat
with a torch. I've browsed some heat-treat documents
but the without some time consuming study, no immediate
notions of process jumped out. I need to soften this part
so that I can drill it with ordinary high-speed drills.
Are there any folks on the list with some practical experience
in this area? Hoping to deliver this thing tomorrow but
it ain't gonna happen without the pin installed. Any
suggestions from the List?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Putney <billp(at)wwpc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: heat treat problem |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "H. Marvin Haught" <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net> |
| Subject: | Re: heat treat problem |
Bob -
If the part is not critical, just heat it up red hot, hold it there for
a minute or so, and let it air cool. Here is a fair discussion of the
process.
http://www.efunda.com/processes/heat_treat/softening/annealing.cfm
Alternatively, a very sharp drill bit, turned very slowly will also work
with lots of cooling fluid. I set up my drill press for that very
purpose (had to drill some spring steel with out having to re-treat it)
by installing a secondary motor with small pulley. Liked it so well
that way that I just left it set up. Doesn't do well on soft metals,
but is not nearly as hard on drill bits, and works for nearly any type
of steel.
M. Haught
On Apr 3, 2013, at 1:51 PM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:
> Good Afternoon Bob,
>
> Maybe this will jog a few memories.
>
> Back when I was in High School (Seventy Years Ago) My shop teacher
taught us how to make great hunting knives out of worn out files, We
heated them with an acetylene torch to bright red then stuck them into
some sort of powder to cool. Once they had cooled they were very easy to
grind to the knife shape.
>
> We then heated them back up again and quenched them in a light oil to
harden the edge.
>
> My thought is that the powder we slow cooled them in was ordinary
baking flour. Anyone know for sure?
>
> I am also fuzzy on just what liquid we used for the quick cool. May
have been something other than light oil. All very far back in my
faulty memory, but maybe that will jog some one else's memory. Worked
like a champ to turn those files in hunting knives.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
>
> In a message dated 4/3/2013 1:13:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com writes:
> I've got a project that hit a bit of a snag. I'm
> building a recovery parachute control system that
> uses a t-handle to deploy the parachute. I found
> a really handy size T-handle in McMaster-Carr
> and proceed with my endeavors.
>
> One of the last operations during assembly called for
> cutting the shaft of the t-handle to length and then
> drilling a 3/16" hole in the last 1/2". The hole
> accepts a roll-pin that runs in the slot on a guide
> collar to set stroke of the handle and to restrain
> rotation.
>
> <1efc966e.jpg>
> When I cut the shaft with an abrasive cut-off wheel, the
> it turned out to bet harder than the hubs-of-you-know-what.
> It's the right length but now I need to drill the hole. No
> chance with any tools I have.
>
> I think I recall that steel can be heated to some pretty
> ordinary temperatures (less than incandescent) and cooled
> slowly to remove the heat treat. Strength in this area is
> very un-critical. I can put a thermocouple on it and heat
> with a torch. I've browsed some heat-treat documents
> but the without some time consuming study, no immediate
> notions of process jumped out. I need to soften this part
> so that I can drill it with ordinary high-speed drills.
>
> Are there any folks on the list with some practical experience
> in this area? Hoping to deliver this thing tomorrow but
> it ain't gonna happen without the pin installed. Any
> suggestions from the List?
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: heat treat problem (solved) |
Heated to barely incandescent (turned lights out
to detect threshold) with Propane torch and then
let cool in air.
Was delighted to find that my center punch actually
made a mark on it! Was able to drill the necessary
hole with no difficulty.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "wynaire(at)citlink.net" <wynaire(at)citlink.net> |
| Subject: | LED heatsink material? |
Hello All,=0AYour thoughts or lessons from experience: =0AI am mounting two
(2) each 10Watt LED's (R/G color and -white [6500k] in each wing tip, un
der a clear tip lens. The mounting plate (polished for reflectivity) can be
copper or SS or aluminum. Which material is the best choice for conducting
the LED heat away from the LED's?=0AThanks in advance for your suggestions
. Any other bits of related info are also appreciated.=0AMike W.=0ALNC2 360
@ 88% finished... with 88% to go ;)=0A=0AFrom: James Kilford <james@etrave
l.org>=0A>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0A>Sent: Wednesday, April 3,
2013 6:31 AM=0A>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ebus Diode=0A>=0A>=0A>On a
related note, is there a way to determine if a heatsink is large enough?
- =0A>=0A>=0A>I made a heatsink out of some scrap .020" aluminium -- half
a dozen pieces of varying lengths, stacked and folded up at the ends to fo
rm fins. -I've bolted it under the rectifier with some heatsink paste.
-=0A>=0A>=0A>Seems like quite a lot of aluminium, and plenty of surface a
rea, but it would nice to find a way of evaluating its effectiveness... oth
er than waiting for the smell of burning semiconductor...=0A>=0A>=0A>Many t
hanks,-=0A>=0A>=0A>James=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>On 2 April 2013 16:38, Robert L.
Nuckolls, III wrote:=0A>=0A>At 09:56 AM 4/2
/2013, you wrote:=0A>>=0A>>The drawing http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/Diode_Inst
allation.pdf=0A>>>From B and C shows both ~ (I don't have the correct symbo
l horizontal s with -) terminals powered from the main bus with the + going
to the Ebus and - unused.=0A>>>=0A>>>Question: I could run power from the
main bus to either ~ terminal and power the Ebus?=0A>>>=0A>>>Powering both
~ terminals gains a little redundancy to power the Ebus?=0A>>- No 'redund
ancy' just a potential tiny improvement in=0A>>- thermal modeling. Not a
big deal one way or another.=0A>>- Run main bus power to either one or bo
th AC input=0A>>- terminals, one wire from (+) to e-bus.=0A>>=0A>>- Bob
. . .=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>- Bob . . . =0A>>ist" target="_blank">http://www.m
atronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Listtp://forums.matronics.com_bla
-========================
=========== =0A>=0A>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com> |
| Subject: | Re: heat treat problem |
On 4/3/2013 11:51 AM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:
> the powder we slow cooled them in was ordinary baking flour. Anyone
> know for sure?
Flour is combustible, and if you generate flour dust, explosive...
probably not a good thing to put very hot metal objects into.
Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LED heatsink material? |
Hello Mike W.,=0A=0AThe short answer is copper.- This is evidenced by eac
h material's thermal conductivity, shown below in SI units:=0A=0A---
- Copper - 401 Watt/(meter x Kelvin)=0A---- Aluminum - 237 Watt/(
meter x Kelvin)=0A---- Stainless steel - 16.7 Watt/(meter x Kelvin)
=0A=0A=0AThe above data came from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the
rmal_conductivities=0A=0AThermal conductivity is the property of a material
to conduct heat. As you can see, copper conducts heat 1.7 times better tha
n aluminum and 24 times better than a certain type of stainless steel. Ther
e are other things to consider but since your mounting plate is your reflec
tor and you are stuck with its dimensions, form factor and coating.- If y
ou are looking for the best conductor, copper is the choice.- This also a
ssumes that you are not concerned with weight or corrosion.=0A=0A-=0AHena
dor Titzoff=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "wynaire@c
itlink.net" =0ATo: "aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com" <
aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com> =0ASent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 4:43 PM
=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: LED heatsink material?=0A =0A=0AHello All,
=0AYour thoughts or lessons from experience: =0AI am mounting two (2) each
10Watt LED's (R/G color and -white [6500k] in each wing tip, under a clea
r tip lens. The mounting plate (polished for reflectivity) can be copper or
SS or aluminum. Which material is the best choice for conducting the LED h
eat away from the LED's?=0AThanks in advance for your suggestions. Any othe
r bits of related info are also appreciated.=0AMike W.=0ALNC2 360 @ 88% fin
ished... with 88% to go ;)=0A=0A=0AFrom: James Kilford <james(at)etravel.org>
=0A>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0A>Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013
6:31 AM=0A>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ebus Diode=0A>=0A>=0A>On a relat
ed note, is there a way to determine if a heatsink is large enough? - =0A
>=0A>=0A>I made a heatsink out of some scrap .020" aluminium -- half a doze
n pieces of varying lengths, stacked and folded up at the ends to form fins
. -I've bolted it under the rectifier with some heatsink paste. -=0A>
=0A>=0A>Seems like quite a lot of aluminium, and plenty of surface area, bu
t it would nice to find a way of evaluating its effectiveness... other than
waiting for the smell of burning semiconductor...=0A>=0A>=0A>Many thanks,
-=0A>=0A>=0A>James=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>On 2 April 2013 16:38, Robert L. Nuckol
ls, III wrote:=0A>=0A>At 09:56 AM 4/2/2013,
you wrote:=0A>>=0A>>The drawing http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/Diode_Installati
on.pdf=0A>>>From B and C shows both ~ (I don't have the correct symbol hori
zontal s with -) terminals powered from the main bus with the + going to th
e Ebus and - unused.=0A>>>=0A>>>Question: I could run power from the main b
us to either ~ terminal and power the Ebus?=0A>>>=0A>>>Powering both ~ term
inals gains a little redundancy to power the Ebus?=0A>>- No 'redundancy'
just a potential tiny improvement in=0A>>- thermal modeling. Not a big de
al one way or another.=0A>>- Run main bus power to either one or both AC
input=0A>>- terminals, one wire from (+) to e-bus.=0A>>=0A>>- Bob . . .
=0A>>=0A>> =0A>>- Bob . . . =0A>>ist" target="_blank">http://www.matron
ics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List=0Atp://forums.matronics.com=0A_blank">h
-========================
===========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Tasker <retasker(at)optonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED heatsink material? |
Copper is best, then Aluminum then Steel.
Dick Tasker
wynaire(at)citlink.net wrote:
> Hello All,
> Your thoughts or lessons from experience:
> I am mounting two (2) each 10Watt LED's (R/G color and white [6500k] in each
wing tip, under a clear tip lens. The
> mounting plate (polished for reflectivity) can be copper or SS or aluminum. Which
material is the best choice for
> conducting the LED heat away from the LED's?
> Thanks in advance for your suggestions. Any other bits of related info are also
appreciated.
> Mike W.
> LNC2 360 @ 88% finished... with 88% to go ;)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ed Godfrey <egodfrey(at)ameritech.net> |
| Subject: | Opinion on fuse block |
Bob,
Do you have any opinion on a fuse block with a built-in "forest of
ground tabs" such as this one?
http://www.starmarinedepot.com/Sierra+Fuse+Block+ATO-ATC+14+Gangs.html?gclid=CKSR4vDDr7YCFQUHnQodHBAAMA
Ed Godfrey
40717
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: heat treat problem |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: heat treat problem |
At 02:35 PM 4/3/2013, you wrote:
>Bob -
>
>If the part is not critical, just heat it up red hot, hold it there
>for a minute or so, and let it air cool. Here is a fair discussion
>of the process.
><http://www.efunda.com/processes/heat_treat/softening/annealing.cfm>http://www.efunda.com/processes/heat_treat/softening/annealing.cfm
Essentially that's what I did.
>Alternatively, a very sharp drill bit, turned very slowly will also
>work with lots of cooling fluid. I set up my drill press for that
>very purpose (had to drill some spring steel with out having to
>re-treat it) by installing a secondary motor with small
>pulley. Liked it so well that way that I just left it set
>up. Doesn't do well on soft metals, but is not nearly as hard on
>drill bits, and works for nearly any type of steel.
I tried that earlier but the stuff was so hard
my center punch wouldn't even mark it! Couldn't
get a bit to set still in one spot long enough to
remove any material.
Softening it up worked great.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: heat treat problem |
Based on the old articles I've read about heat treating and tempering it
could have been sifted wood ash,or asbestos. Just things I've read
about people using. It was probably oil you dipped in to quench.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 04/03/2013 01:51 PM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:
> Good Afternoon Bob,
> Maybe this will jog a few memories.
> Back when I was in High School (Seventy Years Ago) My shop teacher
> taught us how to make great hunting knives out of worn out files, We
> heated them with an acetylene torch to bright red then stuck them into
> some sort of powder to cool. Once they had cooled they were very easy
> to grind to the knife shape.
> We then heated them back up again and quenched them in a light oil to
> harden the edge.
> My thought is that the powder we slow cooled them in was ordinary
> baking flour. Anyone know for sure?
> I am also fuzzy on just what liquid we used for the quick cool. May
> have been something other than light oil. All very far back in my
> faulty memory, but maybe that will jog some one else's memory. Worked
> like a champ to turn those files in hunting knives.
> Happy Skies,
> Old Bob
> In a message dated 4/3/2013 1:13:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com writes:
>
> I've got a project that hit a bit of a snag. I'm
> building a recovery parachute control system that
> uses a t-handle to deploy the parachute. I found
> a really handy size T-handle in McMaster-Carr
> and proceed with my endeavors.
>
> One of the last operations during assembly called for
> cutting the shaft of the t-handle to length and then
> drilling a 3/16" hole in the last 1/2". The hole
> accepts a roll-pin that runs in the slot on a guide
> collar to set stroke of the handle and to restrain
> rotation.
>
Image removed
>
> When I cut the shaft with an abrasive cut-off wheel, the
> it turned out to bet harder than the hubs-of-you-know-what.
> It's the right length but now I need to drill the hole. No
> chance with any tools I have.
>
> I think I recall that steel can be heated to some pretty
> ordinary temperatures (less than incandescent) and cooled
> slowly to remove the heat treat. Strength in this area is
> very un-critical. I can put a thermocouple on it and heat
> with a torch. I've browsed some heat-treat documents
> but the without some time consuming study, no immediate
> notions of process jumped out. I need to soften this part
> so that I can drill it with ordinary high-speed drills.
>
> Are there any folks on the list with some practical experience
> in this area? Hoping to deliver this thing tomorrow but
> it ain't gonna happen without the pin installed. Any
> suggestions from the List?
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Opinion on fuse block |
At 05:22 PM 4/3/2013, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
> Do you have any opinion on a fuse block with a built-in "forest
> of ground tabs" such as this one?
>
>http://www.starmarinedepot.com/Sierra+Fuse+Block+ATO-ATC+14+Gangs.html?gclid=CKSR4vDDr7YCFQUHnQodHBAAMA
>
>Ed Godfrey
>40717
Yeah, I looked at those when I started selling the fuse blocks.
It SEEMS like a good idea. So do switch/breakers.
It's a matter of architecture. Do you WANT your single point
ground to be right next to the bus, or does it fit better elsewhere?
Also, the products I has available to me then offered fewer grounds
that bus feeders. In my experience you need about 1.5 times more
grounds than feeders.
Same thing with switch/breakers. The notion of combining
control and protection functions into a single device FORCES
some portion of the bus structure to be located right behind
the panel. It can also make for some interesting looking
bus structures when the switches located for human factors
reasons don't lend themselves to being grouped with their
respective busses.
I think the fuse block, toggle switch and forest of tabs
ground block as separate products gives the builder a low
cost, minimum parts count, architecturally elegant solution
to doing the best we know how to do.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net> |
If you want true redundancy then just use two rectifiers in parallel. When
I built my panel I ended up with a full IFR radio stack on the Ebus and some
other items that, together, take quite a bit of current. Not wanting to
risk over-taxing the single rectifier or reduce its life by running it near
maximum all the time, I simply installed a second one in parallel with the
first. I also mounted them to 1/16 inch thick aluminum brackets fastened to
the bulkhead behind the instrument panel to keep them as cool as possible.
Probably overkill but, so far so good.
Dean Psiropoulos
RV-6A N197DM
-----Original Message-----
From: "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net>
Subject: Ebus Diode
Andy,
<< Question: I could run power from the main bus to either ~ terminal and
power the Ebus? >>
Yes, but this misses the purpose of connecting both AC terminals (~) to the
source. The package has 4 diodes. It is used everywhere as an AC to DC
rectifier. In theory you could use one high current diode but the cost of
the same capacity is much higher than the 4 diode package due to the very
high economy of scale from the 4 diode configuration even though we are
"wasting" diodes. The mounting for this package is also simpler.
The main enemy of semiconductors is heat. With the connection to two
divides in parallel the current between them is divided, not evenly divided
but still shared between the two. This spreads out the heat generation
which makes the device more robust.
<< Powering both ~ terminals gains a little redundancy to power the Ebus?
>>
As is hopefully explained above, the reason for using both ~ terminals is
spreading out the heat generation, not redundancy. If you have an Ebus
current of 15 amps, even if one diode carries 10 amps and the other only 5
amps, you are stressing the part less than having all 15 amps going through
1 diode. In other words, there is a good reason for connecting the source
to both ~ terminals which is what you should do.
Tom Kuffel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: heat treat problem (solved) |
Bob,
Thanks for the tip on heat treating and details...
Dave
_____________________________________________________
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: heat treat problem (solved)
>
>
> Heated to barely incandescent (turned lights out
> to detect threshold) with Propane torch and then
> let cool in air.
>
> Was delighted to find that my center punch actually
> made a mark on it! Was able to drill the necessary
> hole with no difficulty.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
I've been selling these for a decade. My newest version can be used as two parallel,
a Y-configuration or just a big diode. Heatsink included. See attached.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397835#397835
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/power_deuce_schottky_manual_200.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LED heatsink material? |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
> Seems like quite a lot of aluminium, and plenty of surface area, but it would
nice to find a way of evaluating its effectiveness... other than waiting for
the smell of burning semiconductor...
Tape this into your toolbox. These are for surfaces touched with a non-calloused
finger, not ambients.
Cool: 100 degC
You can estimate between these numbers quite well.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397842#397842
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Ebus Diode |
At 08:25 PM 4/3/2013, you wrote:
>
>
>If you want true redundancy then just use two rectifiers in parallel.
Actually, if you want redundancy for a failed
diode, you would want to wire them in series.
Diodes generally fail shorted. So having a good
diode in parallel would a bad one would not
mitigate the failure. But of course, diodes in
series doubles the voltage drop and that's not
high on our list of design goals.
As long as they're adequately heat-sinked,
the diode will outlast the airplane. If
not heat adequately sinked, life expectancy
is short.
The first 'crowbar' ov protection system to
go into a TC aircraft can be found on the AA-1
Yankee. Alternator field was supplied through
a 3 or 5 amp glass cartridge fuse. I don't
recall which right now. Downstream of the fuse
they wired a 15 volt, 1-watt, glass zener to
ground.
In an ov condition, the zener was driven into
destructive conduction, it's junction melted
and shorted the field supply downstream of the
fuse. Crude but it did work . . . with limitations.
I ran some tests on this configuration
at Electro-Mech after an OEM engineer asked me
about it . . . I think it was a guy at Mooney.
Sure 'nuf. Fault the regulator, bus votlage jumps,
zener discolors and turns black, fuse pops, event
over. MUCH slower than legacy OV protection systems
that operate in tens of milliseconds . . . but
certainly better than no OV protection.
I heard of variations on the theme that proved
unsatisfactory . . . like replacing the fast-fuse
with a slow-blow. Or replacing the zener with
its plastic cousin. Plastic zeners and diodes
like to blow apart when fused.
There was an alternator supplier at OSH one year
who advertised "built in OV protection".
Some guy came by the B&C booth to tell me about
it . . . he was skeptical. I walked over to see
what was being offered. Without introducing myself
I asked the vendor to tell me all about it. It
pointed to a plastic, 1-w zener wired across the
alternator's B-terminal to ground. I took some
literature and thanked him for the info.
Some time later, somebody on the Compuserve
AVSIG forum was asking about this same product.
He said his alternator went bad and his OV
protection 'disappeared' without having done
it's job. Upon further inquiry, he said the
little wires were still there . . . just the
black plastic part was gone.
This was an internally regulated alternator
and could not be easily fitted with OV protection.
Certainly the little glob of plastic was not
up to the task.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger & Jean" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> |
> I've been selling these for a decade. My newest version can be used as two
> parallel, a Y-configuration or just a big diode. Heatsink included. See
> attached.
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
Eric,
In looking at your attached diagram, it is my assumption that you are using
the diodes to supply power to critical for flight devices. My thought is
that you would be much better off using 2 fuel pumps and 2 ECU's each
running through their own switches to separate batteries and eliminate the
diodes. This is a little more costly but my thinking is that it will
increase your safety factor by an order of magnitude. Am I wrong on this
approach?
Roger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED strip lighting for panels |
Bob,
Is the DIM5-14 the same item as in your drawing and can be modified for
dimming the led strip lights by replacing resistors as you suggest?
Ed Holyoke
On 4/2/2013 12:12 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> If your airplane has a glare shield, you can
> consider the used of LED strip lights similar
> to these.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/c3wozbj
>
> These strips are assembled from an array
> of LED trios in series fitted with the appropriate
> series resistor to provide max illumination with
> 12vdc applied. Each trio occupies about 2" of
> length.
>
> Three white lights in series do not begin to
> output until applied voltage rises to 7.5 volts
> or so. At 12 volts, each group of 3 lamps
> (about 2" in length) draws about 25 milliamps.
>
> Assume you need 36" of strip to stretch
> across the glare shield (18 trios). You'll
> need a dimmer control capable of carrying
> 18 x .025 or 0.45 amps. This relatively
> low current draw makes the noise-free, linear
> regulators more attractive. Referring to this
> drawing
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ccrpzfa
>
> You see the architecture for a dimmer set up for
> incandescent lamps. I.e. 4.5 volts minimum. For service
> with these strips, the minimum needs to be raised to
> 7.5 volts. Further, we want to fix the adjustment
> range at 7.5 - 12v or a delta-V of 3.5 volts.
>
> Since our stock "pot" is 2.5K, then to get 3.5
> volts dropped across the pot at max resistance,
> we need a divider current of 3.5/2500 or 1.4 milliamps.
>
> The voltage across the upper resistor is fixed at
> 1.25 volts by internal characteristics of the
> 317 regulator. 1.25V/0.0014A = 892 (910 ohms
> is close enough and a standard 5% value).
>
> Okay, with the pot at min resistance, we need
> 7.5 volts total output. (7.5 - 1.25)/0.0014
> equals 4464 ohms (4700 is also a standard
> value and sufficiently close).
>
> So, if you'd care to build your own dimmer the
> 390 ohm resistor is replaced with a 910 ohm
> resistor; the 910 ohm resistor is replaced with
> a 4700 ohm resistor. The TO220 plastic package
> version of the LM317 on a modicum of heatsink
> would be 'fat' enough and entirely free of noise.
>
> That 15-foot chunk of strip lighting for $20 is
> delivered toyour door at that price and is probably
> enough lighting to do 5 airplanes. I've copied B&C
> on this posting to see if they'd be interested in
> offering an LED strip light version of their DIM5-14
> product.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/dylkufj
>
> Bob . . .
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "wynaire(at)citlink.net" <wynaire(at)citlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED strip lighting for panels |
FWIW: There are Ebay sites {China} now offering inexpensive LED dimmers, fo
r stirp lighting.-One is one it's way here. If it smokes, I-will post t
he peticulars. As always, thanks for your advice.-=0AMike W.=0APS: Now lo
oking for an "inexpensive" CS prop governor for a Lyc IO-360 AV. Anyone bui
lding one in his -shop? ;))=0A***********=0A=0AFrom: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop
(at)pacbell.net>=0A>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0A>Sent: Thursday, Ap
ril 4, 2013 1:29 PM=0A>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LED strip lighting f
or panels=0A>=0A>=0A>Bob,=0A>=0A>Is the DIM5-14 the same item as in your dr
awing and can be modified for dimming the led strip lights by replacing res
istors as you suggest?=0A>=0A>Ed Holyoke=0A>=0A>On 4/2/2013 12:12 PM, Rober
t L. Nuckolls, III wrote: =0A>If your airplane has a glare shield, you can
=0A>>consider the used of LED strip lights similar=0A>>to these.=0A>>=0A>>h
ttp://tinyurl.com/c3wozbj=0A>>=0A>>These strips are assembled from an array
=0A>>of LED trios in series fitted with the appropriate=0A>>series resistor
to provide max illumination with=0A>>12vdc applied. Each trio occupies abo
ut 2" of=0A>>length.=0A>>=0A>>Three white lights in series do not begin to
=0A>>output until applied voltage rises to 7.5 volts=0A>>or so.- At 12 vo
lts, each group of 3 lamps=0A>>(about 2" in length) draws about 25 milliamp
s.=0A>>=0A>>Assume you need 36" of strip to stretch=0A>>across the glare sh
ield (18 trios). You'll=0A>>need a dimmer control capable of carrying=0A>>1
8 x .025 or 0.45 amps. This relatively=0A>>low current draw makes the noise
-free, linear=0A>>regulators more attractive. Referring to this=0A>>drawing
=0A>>=0A>>http://tinyurl.com/ccrpzfa=0A>>=0A>>You see the architecture for
a dimmer set up for=0A>>incandescent lamps. I.e. 4.5 volts minimum. For ser
vice=0A>>with these strips, the minimum needs to be raised to=0A>>7.5 volts
. Further, we want to fix the adjustment=0A>>range at 7.5 - 12v or a delta-
V of 3.5 volts.=0A>>=0A>>Since our stock "pot" is 2.5K, then to get 3.5=0A>
>volts dropped across the pot at max resistance,=0A>>we need a divider curr
ent of 3.5/2500 or 1.4 milliamps.=0A>>=0A>>The voltage across the upper res
istor is fixed at=0A>>1.25 volts by internal characteristics of the=0A>>317
regulator. 1.25V/0.0014A = 892 (910 ohms=0A>>is close enough and a stand
ard 5% value).=0A>>=0A>>Okay, with the pot at min resistance, we need=0A>>7
.5 volts total output. (7.5 - 1.25)/0.0014=0A>>equals 4464 ohms (4700 is al
so a standard=0A>>value and sufficiently close).=0A>>=0A>>So, if you'd care
to build your own dimmer the=0A>>390 ohm resistor is replaced with a 910 o
hm=0A>>resistor; the 910 ohm resistor is replaced with=0A>>a 4700 ohm resis
tor. The TO220 plastic package=0A>>version of the LM317 on a modicum of hea
tsink=0A>>would be 'fat' enough and entirely free of noise.=0A>>=0A>>That 1
5-foot chunk of strip lighting for $20 is=0A>>delivered toyour door at that
price and is probably=0A>>enough lighting to do 5 airplanes. I've copied B
&C=0A>>on this posting to see if they'd be interested in=0A>>offering an LE
D strip light version of their DIM5-14=0A>>product.=0A>>=0A>>http://tinyurl
========= =0A>=0A>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Holger Selover-Stephan <holger-d(at)shadowbrush.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LED strip lighting for panels |
I have two of those $6 dimmers on order also. Others have already
reported success using them in the RV forum.
Holger
On Apr 4, 2013, at 10:14 PM, wynaire(at)citlink.net wrote:
> FWIW: There are Ebay sites {China} now offering inexpensive LED
dimmers, for stirp lighting. One is one it's way here. If it smokes, I
will post the peticulars. As always, thanks for your advice.
> Mike W.
> PS: Now looking for an "inexpensive" CS prop governor for a Lyc IO-360
AV. Anyone building one in his shop? ;))
> ***********
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andy Crabtree <crabandy(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LED strip lighting for panels |
This is what was recommended by other builders, Kick KR6 $15-$20 on ebay. I
haven't "fired" it up yet....=0Ahttp://www.kicklighting.com/Kick-Lighting-
KR6.pdf=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "wynaire(at)citlink.n
et" =0ATo: "aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com" =0ASent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 3:14 PM=0ASubject
: Re: AeroElectric-List: LED strip lighting for panels=0A=0A=0AFWIW: There
are Ebay sites {China} now offering inexpensive LED dimmers, for stirp ligh
ting.-One is one it's way here. If it smokes, I-will post the peticular
s. As always, thanks for your advice.-=0AMike W.=0APS: Now looking for an
"inexpensive" CS prop governor for a Lyc IO-360 AV. Anyone building one in
his -shop? ;))=0A***********=0A=0A=0A=0A>_______________________________
_=0A>From: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>=0A>To: aeroelectric-list@matro
nics.com =0A>Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 1:29 PM=0A>Subject: Re: AeroElec
tric-List: LED strip lighting for panels=0A>=0A>=0A>Bob,=0A>=0A>Is the DIM5
-14 the same item as in your drawing and can be modified for dimming the le
d strip lights by replacing resistors as you suggest?=0A>=0A>Ed Holyoke=0A>
=0A>On 4/2/2013 12:12 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: =0A>If your airpla
ne has a glare shield, you can=0A>>consider the used of LED strip lights si
milar=0A>>to these.=0A>>=0A>>http://tinyurl.com/c3wozbj=0A>>=0A>>These stri
ps are assembled from an array=0A>>of LED trios in series fitted with the a
ppropriate=0A>>series resistor to provide max illumination with=0A>>12vdc a
pplied. Each trio occupies about 2" of=0A>>length.=0A>>=0A>>Three white lig
hts in series do not begin to=0A>>output until applied voltage rises to 7.5
volts=0A>>or so.- At 12 volts, each group of 3 lamps=0A>>(about 2" in le
ngth) draws about 25 milliamps.=0A>>=0A>>Assume you need 36" of strip to st
retch=0A>>across the glare shield (18 trios). You'll=0A>>need a dimmer cont
rol capable of carrying=0A>>18 x .025 or 0.45 amps. This relatively=0A>>low
current draw makes the noise-free, linear=0A>>regulators more attractive.
Referring to this=0A>>drawing=0A>>=0A>>http://tinyurl.com/ccrpzfa=0A>>=0A>>
You see the architecture for a dimmer set up for=0A>>incandescent lamps. I.
e. 4.5 volts minimum. For service=0A>>with these strips, the minimum needs
to be raised to=0A>>7.5 volts. Further, we want to fix the adjustment=0A>>r
ange at 7.5 - 12v or a delta-V of 3.5 volts.=0A>>=0A>>Since our stock "pot"
is 2.5K, then to get 3.5=0A>>volts dropped across the pot at max resistanc
e,=0A>>we need a divider current of 3.5/2500 or 1.4 milliamps.=0A>>=0A>>The
voltage across the upper resistor is fixed at=0A>>1.25 volts by internal c
haracteristics of the=0A>>317 regulator. 1.25V/0.0014A = 892 (910 ohms=0A
>>is close enough and a standard 5% value).=0A>>=0A>>Okay, with the pot at
min resistance, we need=0A>>7.5 volts total output. (7.5 - 1.25)/0.0014=0A>
>equals 4464 ohms (4700 is also a standard=0A>>value and sufficiently close
).=0A>>=0A>>So, if you'd care to build your own dimmer the=0A>>390 ohm resi
stor is replaced with a 910 ohm=0A>>resistor; the 910 ohm resistor is repla
ced with=0A>>a 4700 ohm resistor. The TO220 plastic package=0A>>version of
the LM317 on a modicum of heatsink=0A>>would be 'fat' enough and entirely f
ree of noise.=0A>>=0A>>That 15-foot chunk of strip lighting for $20 is=0A>>
delivered toyour door at that price and is probably=0A>>enough lighting to
do 5 airplanes. I've copied B&C=0A>>on this posting to see if they'd be int
erested in=0A>>offering an LED strip light version of their DIM5-14=0A>>pro
duct.=0A>>=0A>>http://tinyurl.com/dylkufj=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>- Bob . . . =0A>
=====================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Dolphin Electrical Wire Connectors |
4/5/2013
Hello Again Bob Nuckolls, I am still hoping for some response from you
to my posting copied below.
Thanks,
=98OC=99 Baker
===
4/1/2013
Hello Bob Nuckolls, It has been suggested that I use these Dolphin
DC-100- P or -S insulation piercing type electrical wire connectors for
low amperage wire connection usage, such as a Ray Allen trim servo, in
my experimental amateur built airplane:
http://dolphincomponents.com/catalogs/Section%20A%20-%20Super%20B%20stand
ard-3207.pdf
What do you think? Thank you.
Owen C. Baker
PS: This is not intended as an April Fools Day joke.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LED heatsink material? |
| From: | James Kilford <james(at)etravel.org> |
Hi Eric,
I'm missing something I think... Is there some more to be sent?
Many thanks,
James
On 4 April 2013 14:15, Eric M. Jones wrote:
>
>
>> Seems like quite a lot of aluminium, and plenty of surface area, but it would
nice to find a way of evaluating its effectiveness... other than waiting for
the smell of burning semiconductor...
>
>
> Tape this into your toolbox. These are for surfaces touched with a non-calloused
finger, not ambients.
>
> Cool: 100 degC
>
> You can estimate between these numbers quite well.
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones(at)charter.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397842#397842
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LED heatsink material? |
What Eric Jonez is saying, James, is to use your calibrated finger to deter
mine if the heat sink is working. If you can touch the component without bu
rning your finger, it's most likely okay. This must be done during a real t
est where the Essential Bus is loaded to its max. Wait for the current to h
eat the junction and stabilize the temp, meaning that it's reached a maximu
m temperature because heat is flowing from it to ambient air through severa
l interfaces such as junction to leads and case, case to heat sink, and hea
t sink to air.=0A=0AYou could instrument the diode case to get a more accur
ate reading, but a calibrated finger is almost good enough.- If it burns
the hell out of you, then maybe you need a bigger heat sink.=0A=0A-=0AHen
ador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: James Kilfor
d =0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Friday
, April 5, 2013 8:09 AM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED heatsink
es(at)etravel.org>=0A=0AHi Eric,=0A=0AI'm missing something I think...- Is t
here some more to be sent?=0A=0AMany thanks,=0A=0AJames=0A=0A=0AOn 4 April
2013 14:15, Eric M. Jones wrote:=0A> --> AeroElectric
-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" =0A>=0A>=0A>>
Seems like quite a lot of aluminium, and plenty of surface area, but it wo
uld nice to find a way of evaluating its effectiveness... other than waitin
g for the smell of burning semiconductor...=0A>=0A>=0A> Tape this into your
toolbox. These are for surfaces touched with a non-calloused finger, not a
mbients.=0A>=0A> Cool: 100 degC=0A>=0A> You can estimate between these numb
ers quite well.=0A>=0A> --------=0A> Eric M. Jones=0A> www.PerihelionDesign
.com=0A> 113 Brentwood Drive=0A> Southbridge, MA 01550=0A> (508) 764-2072
=0A> emjones(at)charter.net=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> Read this topic online here
:=0A>=0A> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397842#397842=0A>
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List
======
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LED heatsink material? |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
> Tape this into your toolbox. These are for surfaces touched with a non-calloused
finger, not ambients.
>
> Cool: 100 degC
>
> You can estimate between these numbers quite well.
There was some sort of error in this posting which involved the "more than" and
"less than" symbols. I tried to delete it but it got through anyway. Here it
is again (without the symbols):
Tape this into your toolbox. These are for metal surfaces touched with a non-calloused
finger, not ambients.
Cool: 30 degC
Warm: 40 degC
Uncomfortably Hot: 50 degC
As hot as you can touch: 60 degC
Immediately painful: 70 degC
Will blister skin: 100 degC
You can estimate between these numbers quite well.
Matt: If you can delete the previous post I'd appreciate it.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397893#397893
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LED heatsink material? |
| From: | James Kilford <james(at)etravel.org> |
Wow! That's another amazing bit of information. Thanks Eric!
I'm guessing that HTML formatting hid the middle bit of content with
the less than and greater than signs.
Did it originally say: "Cool less than 30C" and "Will blister skin
greater than 100C"?
Thanks again.
James
On 5 April 2013 14:07, Eric M. Jones wrote:
>
>
>> Tape this into your toolbox. These are for surfaces touched with a non-calloused
finger, not ambients.
>>
>> Cool: 100 degC
>>
>> You can estimate between these numbers quite well.
>
>
> There was some sort of error in this posting which involved the "more than" and
"less than" symbols. I tried to delete it but it got through anyway. Here it
is again (without the symbols):
>
> Tape this into your toolbox. These are for metal surfaces touched with a non-calloused
finger, not ambients.
>
> Cool: 30 degC
> Warm: 40 degC
> Uncomfortably Hot: 50 degC
> As hot as you can touch: 60 degC
> Immediately painful: 70 degC
> Will blister skin: 100 degC
>
> You can estimate between these numbers quite well.
>
> Matt: If you can delete the previous post I'd appreciate it.
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones(at)charter.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397893#397893
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dolphin Electrical Wire Connectors |
| From: | Y! edpav8r <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
Owen,
As someone else stated, the Dolphin DC-100 connectors are intended for use i
n telephone and alarm system wiring. They are suitable for use only with sm
all diameter solid wire, and are totally unsuitable for aircraft wiring. Al
so, they're smaller than they appear in the manufacturer's photos; I'd be su
rprised if you could get two wires of more than 22-gauge into them.
I used the exact connectors you're looking at when I installed the alarm sys
tem in my home. I used about 80-90 of the things, and had to remove and rea
pply about half a dozen because they didn't make a connection on the first t
ry. Not the kind of reliability we need in aircraft wiring (and very annoyi
ng when working in an attic, in Phoenix, in June!).
I would stick with M22759/16 wire in a gauge appropriate for the load being s
erved, stripped with a quality stripper like the Ideal Stripmaster, and with
terminations made using PIDG crimp connectors and a quality full-cycle ratc
heting crimper. That's what's been proven to work.
Cheers,
Eric
On Apr 5, 2013, at 4:52 AM, "Owen Baker " wrote:
>
> Hello Again Bob Nuckolls, I am still hoping for some response from you to m
y posting copied below.
>
> Thanks,
>
> =98OC=99 Baker
>
> =========================
===
>
> 4/1/2013
>
> Hello Bob Nuckolls, It has been suggested that I use these Dolphin DC-100-
P or -S insulation piercing type electrical wire connectors for low amperage
wire connection usage, such as a Ray Allen trim servo, in my experimental a
mateur built airplane:
>
> http://dolphincomponents.com/catalogs/Section%20A%20-%20Super%20B%20standa
rd-3207.pdf
>
> What do you think? Thank you.
>
> Owen C. Baker
>
> PS: This is not intended as an April Fools Day joke.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Diagnostic Help Please: Audio is Weak and Scratchy |
| From: | Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> |
I've been testing my audio system and have encountered poor
performance. Does anyone have any suggestions for what to check?
Here is the problem:
All audio through the headsets is too quiet, and pretty scratchy. This
applies to radio reception, intercom audio, Dynon voice out, and music
input. With the intercom volume, headset volume, and individual device
volume all the way up, the total volume is about where I would want to
have it with 25% volume selected instead. The issue seems to afflict
each of the various inputs to a similar degree.
Here is the setup:
New construction, wired by me (a non-professional, so anything is possible)
The airframe is a steel tube 4-place fuselage with the mic and audio
headset jacks isolated from ground, as verified by voltmeter
continuity checks.
I used shielded cables to connect the intercom and the mic and stereo
phone jacks, with the shields connected at intercom end to each other
and not connected to anything at the jacks.
I have a self-assembled AEC 9009 Audio Iso Amp handling VHF nav audio
on one channel, dynon warnings on one channel, left music in on one
channel, and right music in on one channel, with the 9009's output
going into the intercom aux input
The intercom is a Flightcom 403, with the pilot wires going to the
left front seat, copilot wires to the right front seat, and passenger
jacks to the back two seats.
The GNS430 is the only radio, with com audio routed directly to the
intercom per the intercom directions.
I'm testing with two known-good David Clark headsets (one stereo, one
mono) and one brand new Lightspeed headset, all with freshly buffed,
shiny connectors.
I'm using battery power only, since the engine is not installed
presently. I've tried the battery by itself and the battery with the
charger connected. The voltage range is about 13v to 14v for those
two cases, but I can't see that changing from one to the other makes
any difference in the audio system issues.
Here is what I have tried so far with no improvements:
First, I unplugged aec9009. I lost the channels that run through it,
but the remaining intercom and VHF com audio were still the same.
Then I swapped intercom for the bypass plug that I built per the
intercom manual. this plug is designed to connect the pilot seat
jacks directly to the radio, so that the airplane can still function
as a single-place if the intercom is removed entirely. As with the
9009, I lose intercom function in this configuration (as I should),
but the vhf com audio is still weak and scratchy.
I tried changing the Headsets around in various combinations to
various seats with no appreciable change.
I changed out the volume resistors in the AEC9009 to increase the
volume of those channels, and the volume did go up on the channel in
question, but the quality really suffered.
I'm not really sure what to try next. Does anyone have any
suggestions for what to check?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Diagnostic Help Please: Audio is Weak and Scratchy |
On 04/05/2013 03:40 PM, Jared Yates wrote:
>
> I've been testing my audio system and have encountered poor
> performance. Does anyone have any suggestions for what to check?
> Here is the problem:
>
> All audio through the headsets is too quiet, and pretty scratchy. This
> applies to radio reception, intercom audio, Dynon voice out, and music
> input. With the intercom volume, headset volume, and individual device
> volume all the way up, the total volume is about where I would want to
> have it with 25% volume selected instead. The issue seems to afflict
> each of the various inputs to a similar degree.
>
> Here is the setup:
> New construction, wired by me (a non-professional, so anything is possible)
> The airframe is a steel tube 4-place fuselage with the mic and audio
> headset jacks isolated from ground, as verified by voltmeter
> continuity checks.
> I used shielded cables to connect the intercom and the mic and stereo
> phone jacks, with the shields connected at intercom end to each other
> and not connected to anything at the jacks.
> I have a self-assembled AEC 9009 Audio Iso Amp handling VHF nav audio
> on one channel, dynon warnings on one channel, left music in on one
> channel, and right music in on one channel, with the 9009's output
> going into the intercom aux input
> The intercom is a Flightcom 403, with the pilot wires going to the
> left front seat, copilot wires to the right front seat, and passenger
> jacks to the back two seats.
> The GNS430 is the only radio, with com audio routed directly to the
> intercom per the intercom directions.
> I'm testing with two known-good David Clark headsets (one stereo, one
> mono) and one brand new Lightspeed headset, all with freshly buffed,
> shiny connectors.
> I'm using battery power only, since the engine is not installed
> presently. I've tried the battery by itself and the battery with the
> charger connected. The voltage range is about 13v to 14v for those
> two cases, but I can't see that changing from one to the other makes
> any difference in the audio system issues.
>
> Here is what I have tried so far with no improvements:
> First, I unplugged aec9009. I lost the channels that run through it,
> but the remaining intercom and VHF com audio were still the same.
> Then I swapped intercom for the bypass plug that I built per the
> intercom manual. this plug is designed to connect the pilot seat
> jacks directly to the radio, so that the airplane can still function
> as a single-place if the intercom is removed entirely. As with the
> 9009, I lose intercom function in this configuration (as I should),
> but the vhf com audio is still weak and scratchy.
> I tried changing the Headsets around in various combinations to
> various seats with no appreciable change.
> I changed out the volume resistors in the AEC9009 to increase the
> volume of those channels, and the volume did go up on the channel in
> question, but the quality really suffered.
> I'm not really sure what to try next. Does anyone have any
> suggestions for what to check?
The fuzzy part sounds like some segment in the audio chain is being
overdriven by a source, or is being asked to supply more than it's
capable of giving. The low level could be too much of a load on the
output (load impedance too low). A partial short to ground (from an
audio 'hi' to an audio 'Lo', or to the chassis) is the 1st thing that
comes to mind. Having both fuzzy & low volume from multiple sources
*might* mean that you have two or more outputs trying to feed into each
other, with no isolation resistors between them. (This will make all
affected outputs 'think' that they are effectively shorted to ground
because each is trying to drive a very low impedance load.)
So to proceed, 'Divide & conquer.'
It's extremely unlikely that you have the same problem with every
source, so job one is eliminating the known-good items. I'd get a set of
clip leads, and extra phone jack, & start testing each source by itself,
without it connected to any other component. Isolate the output line
(typically 'audio hi' on the hookup diagram) from the rest of the plane.
Hook a clip lead from that wire to the tip terminal of your spare jack.
Hook another clip lead from the ground ('audio Lo') to the shield
(ground) terminal of the jack. Plug in a known-good headset & listen to
that source. Sound ok? If not troubleshoot settings, ground paths, etc.
If good, move to the next source & repeat. Annddd repeat, until you've
checked all or until you find a bad component.
If all is good, hook one (and only one) source to the iso amp & move
your test jack to the iso amp's output (with it hooked to nothing else).
If bad, there's your problem. All good? that means the iso amp is almost
certainly good, too.
Hook the iso amp to the intercom's input again (with nothing else hooked
to the input). Move the test jack to the intercom's output (with nothing
else hooked up to the output lead). Listen again. If bad, check intercom
settings (especially if there is an internal gain setting or aux input
volume control in the intercom).
All good? Without hooking up the 430, add one component to the iso amp &
check for level/quality at the intercom output. (We've actually skipped
a few steps by doing this, but if one iso input is good, odds are high
that all will be good.)
All sources (except 430) good? Use your test jack to check the 430, with
its output connected to nothing but the test jack. Bad? There's your
problem. Good? Proceed.
Now look at how the 430 ties to the intercom. In your message, you say
that the iso amp is hooked direct to the intercom. Is this a separate
input on the intercom? It probably is, but if it's tied to the same
input with the iso amp, that might well be your problem. Different
input? Move your test jack to the intercom output & listen to the 430
through the intercom. Bad? Re-check wiring & intercom settings, then
check the intercom itself, if possible. Still good? Re-check your
headphone wiring harness in the plane.
Having said all that, I'll say this: I've worked on a couple of 430
installations for friends, & they can be real snakes to troubleshoot.
The most common issue is ground pins on the d-Sub connectors. There are
quite a few, & if you miss one, stuff isn't going to work (not every
ground terminal is common to every other ground terminal in those d-Sub
connectors). On one system, I spoke with directly to a Garmin factory
tech while holding the installation manual in my hand, and read off the
pins that were connected. Even the Garmin tech failed to mention a
(ground) pin that needed to be connected.
Charlie
(pro audio tech, consumer electronics tech and industrial electronics
tech in various former lives)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Diagnostic Help Please: Audio is Weak and Scratchy |
| From: | Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> |
Thank you very much Charlie, I'll try those procedures and report back when complete.
On Apr 5, 2013, at 20:46, Charlie England wrote:
>
> On 04/05/2013 03:40 PM, Jared Yates wrote:
>>
>> I've been testing my audio system and have encountered poor
>> performance. Does anyone have any suggestions for what to check?
>> Here is the problem:
>>
>> All audio through the headsets is too quiet, and pretty scratchy. This
>> applies to radio reception, intercom audio, Dynon voice out, and music
>> input. With the intercom volume, headset volume, and individual device
>> volume all the way up, the total volume is about where I would want to
>> have it with 25% volume selected instead. The issue seems to afflict
>> each of the various inputs to a similar degree.
>>
>> Here is the setup:
>> New construction, wired by me (a non-professional, so anything is possible)
>> The airframe is a steel tube 4-place fuselage with the mic and audio
>> headset jacks isolated from ground, as verified by voltmeter
>> continuity checks.
>> I used shielded cables to connect the intercom and the mic and stereo
>> phone jacks, with the shields connected at intercom end to each other
>> and not connected to anything at the jacks.
>> I have a self-assembled AEC 9009 Audio Iso Amp handling VHF nav audio
>> on one channel, dynon warnings on one channel, left music in on one
>> channel, and right music in on one channel, with the 9009's output
>> going into the intercom aux input
>> The intercom is a Flightcom 403, with the pilot wires going to the
>> left front seat, copilot wires to the right front seat, and passenger
>> jacks to the back two seats.
>> The GNS430 is the only radio, with com audio routed directly to the
>> intercom per the intercom directions.
>> I'm testing with two known-good David Clark headsets (one stereo, one
>> mono) and one brand new Lightspeed headset, all with freshly buffed,
>> shiny connectors.
>> I'm using battery power only, since the engine is not installed
>> presently. I've tried the battery by itself and the battery with the
>> charger connected. The voltage range is about 13v to 14v for those
>> two cases, but I can't see that changing from one to the other makes
>> any difference in the audio system issues.
>>
>> Here is what I have tried so far with no improvements:
>> First, I unplugged aec9009. I lost the channels that run through it,
>> but the remaining intercom and VHF com audio were still the same.
>> Then I swapped intercom for the bypass plug that I built per the
>> intercom manual. this plug is designed to connect the pilot seat
>> jacks directly to the radio, so that the airplane can still function
>> as a single-place if the intercom is removed entirely. As with the
>> 9009, I lose intercom function in this configuration (as I should),
>> but the vhf com audio is still weak and scratchy.
>> I tried changing the Headsets around in various combinations to
>> various seats with no appreciable change.
>> I changed out the volume resistors in the AEC9009 to increase the
>> volume of those channels, and the volume did go up on the channel in
>> question, but the quality really suffered.
>> I'm not really sure what to try next. Does anyone have any
>> suggestions for what to check?
> The fuzzy part sounds like some segment in the audio chain is being overdriven
by a source, or is being asked to supply more than it's capable of giving. The
low level could be too much of a load on the output (load impedance too low).
A partial short to ground (from an audio 'hi' to an audio 'Lo', or to the chassis)
is the 1st thing that comes to mind. Having both fuzzy & low volume from
multiple sources *might* mean that you have two or more outputs trying to feed
into each other, with no isolation resistors between them. (This will make
all affected outputs 'think' that they are effectively shorted to ground because
each is trying to drive a very low impedance load.)
>
> So to proceed, 'Divide & conquer.'
>
> It's extremely unlikely that you have the same problem with every source, so
job one is eliminating the known-good items. I'd get a set of clip leads, and
extra phone jack, & start testing each source by itself, without it connected
to any other component. Isolate the output line (typically 'audio hi' on the hookup
diagram) from the rest of the plane. Hook a clip lead from that wire to
the tip terminal of your spare jack. Hook another clip lead from the ground ('audio
Lo') to the shield (ground) terminal of the jack. Plug in a known-good headset
& listen to that source. Sound ok? If not troubleshoot settings, ground
paths, etc. If good, move to the next source & repeat. Annddd repeat, until you've
checked all or until you find a bad component.
>
> If all is good, hook one (and only one) source to the iso amp & move your test
jack to the iso amp's output (with it hooked to nothing else). If bad, there's
your problem. All good? that means the iso amp is almost certainly good, too.
>
> Hook the iso amp to the intercom's input again (with nothing else hooked to the
input). Move the test jack to the intercom's output (with nothing else hooked
up to the output lead). Listen again. If bad, check intercom settings (especially
if there is an internal gain setting or aux input volume control in the
intercom).
>
> All good? Without hooking up the 430, add one component to the iso amp & check
for level/quality at the intercom output. (We've actually skipped a few steps
by doing this, but if one iso input is good, odds are high that all will be
good.)
>
> All sources (except 430) good? Use your test jack to check the 430, with its
output connected to nothing but the test jack. Bad? There's your problem. Good?
Proceed.
>
> Now look at how the 430 ties to the intercom. In your message, you say that the
iso amp is hooked direct to the intercom. Is this a separate input on the intercom?
It probably is, but if it's tied to the same input with the iso amp,
that might well be your problem. Different input? Move your test jack to the intercom
output & listen to the 430 through the intercom. Bad? Re-check wiring
& intercom settings, then check the intercom itself, if possible. Still good?
Re-check your headphone wiring harness in the plane.
>
> Having said all that, I'll say this: I've worked on a couple of 430 installations
for friends, & they can be real snakes to troubleshoot. The most common issue
is ground pins on the d-Sub connectors. There are quite a few, & if you miss
one, stuff isn't going to work (not every ground terminal is common to every
other ground terminal in those d-Sub connectors). On one system, I spoke with
directly to a Garmin factory tech while holding the installation manual in
my hand, and read off the pins that were connected. Even the Garmin tech failed
to mention a (ground) pin that needed to be connected.
>
> Charlie
> (pro audio tech, consumer electronics tech and industrial electronics tech in
various former lives)
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Diagnostic Help Please: Audio is Weak and Scratchy |
| From: | Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com> |
Jared...
One other potential low impedance fault is if using stereo headphone jacks
and connecting both tip and ring to audio high. When a mono headphone plug
is used it shorts the ring to audio lo (ground) and results in low or no
audio from the connected source(s).
Chris Stone
RV-8
On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 4:52 AM, Jared Yates wrote:
> >
>
> Thank you very much Charlie, I'll try those procedures and report back
> when complete.
>
>
> On Apr 5, 2013, at 20:46, Charlie England wrote:
>
> ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
> >
> > On 04/05/2013 03:40 PM, Jared Yates wrote:
> email(at)jaredyates.com>
> >>
> >> I've been testing my audio system and have encountered poor
> >> performance. Does anyone have any suggestions for what to check?
> >> Here is the problem:
> >>
> >> All audio through the headsets is too quiet, and pretty scratchy. This
> >> applies to radio reception, intercom audio, Dynon voice out, and music
> >> input. With the intercom volume, headset volume, and individual device
> >> volume all the way up, the total volume is about where I would want to
> >> have it with 25% volume selected instead. The issue seems to afflict
> >> each of the various inputs to a similar degree.
> >>
> >> Here is the setup:
> >> New construction, wired by me (a non-professional, so anything is
> possible)
> >> The airframe is a steel tube 4-place fuselage with the mic and audio
> >> headset jacks isolated from ground, as verified by voltmeter
> >> continuity checks.
> >> I used shielded cables to connect the intercom and the mic and stereo
> >> phone jacks, with the shields connected at intercom end to each other
> >> and not connected to anything at the jacks.
> >> I have a self-assembled AEC 9009 Audio Iso Amp handling VHF nav audio
> >> on one channel, dynon warnings on one channel, left music in on one
> >> channel, and right music in on one channel, with the 9009's output
> >> going into the intercom aux input
> >> The intercom is a Flightcom 403, with the pilot wires going to the
> >> left front seat, copilot wires to the right front seat, and passenger
> >> jacks to the back two seats.
> >> The GNS430 is the only radio, with com audio routed directly to the
> >> intercom per the intercom directions.
> >> I'm testing with two known-good David Clark headsets (one stereo, one
> >> mono) and one brand new Lightspeed headset, all with freshly buffed,
> >> shiny connectors.
> >> I'm using battery power only, since the engine is not installed
> >> presently. I've tried the battery by itself and the battery with the
> >> charger connected. The voltage range is about 13v to 14v for those
> >> two cases, but I can't see that changing from one to the other makes
> >> any difference in the audio system issues.
> >>
> >> Here is what I have tried so far with no improvements:
> >> First, I unplugged aec9009. I lost the channels that run through it,
> >> but the remaining intercom and VHF com audio were still the same.
> >> Then I swapped intercom for the bypass plug that I built per the
> >> intercom manual. this plug is designed to connect the pilot seat
> >> jacks directly to the radio, so that the airplane can still function
> >> as a single-place if the intercom is removed entirely. As with the
> >> 9009, I lose intercom function in this configuration (as I should),
> >> but the vhf com audio is still weak and scratchy.
> >> I tried changing the Headsets around in various combinations to
> >> various seats with no appreciable change.
> >> I changed out the volume resistors in the AEC9009 to increase the
> >> volume of those channels, and the volume did go up on the channel in
> >> question, but the quality really suffered.
> >> I'm not really sure what to try next. Does anyone have any
> >> suggestions for what to check?
> > The fuzzy part sounds like some segment in the audio chain is being
> overdriven by a source, or is being asked to supply more than it's capable
> of giving. The low level could be too much of a load on the output (load
> impedance too low). A partial short to ground (from an audio 'hi' to an
> audio 'Lo', or to the chassis) is the 1st thing that comes to mind. Having
> both fuzzy & low volume from multiple sources *might* mean that you have
> two or more outputs trying to feed into each other, with no isolation
> resistors between them. (This will make all affected outputs 'think' that
> they are effectively shorted to ground because each is trying to drive a
> very low impedance load.)
> >
> > So to proceed, 'Divide & conquer.'
> >
> > It's extremely unlikely that you have the same problem with every
> source, so job one is eliminating the known-good items. I'd get a set of
> clip leads, and extra phone jack, & start testing each source by itself,
> without it connected to any other component. Isolate the output line
> (typically 'audio hi' on the hookup diagram) from the rest of the plane.
> Hook a clip lead from that wire to the tip terminal of your spare jack.
> Hook another clip lead from the ground ('audio Lo') to the shield (ground)
> terminal of the jack. Plug in a known-good headset & listen to that source.
> Sound ok? If not troubleshoot settings, ground paths, etc. If good, move to
> the next source & repeat. Annddd repeat, until you've checked all or until
> you find a bad component.
> >
> > If all is good, hook one (and only one) source to the iso amp & move
> your test jack to the iso amp's output (with it hooked to nothing else). If
> bad, there's your problem. All good? that means the iso amp is almost
> certainly good, too.
> >
> > Hook the iso amp to the intercom's input again (with nothing else hooked
> to the input). Move the test jack to the intercom's output (with nothing
> else hooked up to the output lead). Listen again. If bad, check intercom
> settings (especially if there is an internal gain setting or aux input
> volume control in the intercom).
> >
> > All good? Without hooking up the 430, add one component to the iso amp &
> check for level/quality at the intercom output. (We've actually skipped a
> few steps by doing this, but if one iso input is good, odds are high that
> all will be good.)
> >
> > All sources (except 430) good? Use your test jack to check the 430, with
> its output connected to nothing but the test jack. Bad? There's your
> problem. Good? Proceed.
> >
> > Now look at how the 430 ties to the intercom. In your message, you say
> that the iso amp is hooked direct to the intercom. Is this a separate input
> on the intercom? It probably is, but if it's tied to the same input with
> the iso amp, that might well be your problem. Different input? Move your
> test jack to the intercom output & listen to the 430 through the intercom.
> Bad? Re-check wiring & intercom settings, then check the intercom itself,
> if possible. Still good? Re-check your headphone wiring harness in the
> plane.
> >
> > Having said all that, I'll say this: I've worked on a couple of 430
> installations for friends, & they can be real snakes to troubleshoot. The
> most common issue is ground pins on the d-Sub connectors. There are quite a
> few, & if you miss one, stuff isn't going to work (not every ground
> terminal is common to every other ground terminal in those d-Sub
> connectors). On one system, I spoke with directly to a Garmin factory tech
> while holding the installation manual in my hand, and read off the pins
> that were connected. Even the Garmin tech failed to mention a (ground) pin
> that needed to be connected.
> >
> > Charlie
> > (pro audio tech, consumer electronics tech and industrial electronics
> tech in various former lives)
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | transmitter power attenuator |
| From: | Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com> |
I saw a recent post from Bob discussing using a 100 ft piece of coax
connected to the comm antenna serving as an attenuator allowing for bench
testing of a comm radio (xmit) without connecting to a conventional antenna.
My question is, will this also work for a transponder?
I am testing a new panel but do not have any antennas mounted to the the
airframe and need to verify proper operation of each radio. I do have a
dipole antenna (tuned for 118-136 Mhz) mounted on the roof of the shop I
use for testing operation of the comms. But I haven't found any procedure
for testing the transponder and ADS-B UAT which are 1090 Mhz and 978 Mhz
without using their respective antennas.
Chris Stone
RV-8
GNS 430, AFS EFIS, Navworx ADS-B, Val comm, PMA 4000
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: transmitter power attenuator |
At 02:30 PM 4/6/2013, you wrote:
>I saw a recent post from Bob discussing using a
>100 ft piece of coax connected to the comm
>antenna serving as an attenuator allowing for
>bench testing of a comm radio (xmit) without
>connecting to a conventional antenna.
>
>My question is, will this also work for a transponder?
Even better yet. Attenuation at 1050 is a LOT higher
than at 126.
>I am testing a new panel but do not have any
>antennas mounted to the the airframe and need to
>verify proper operation of each radio. I do
>have a dipole antenna (tuned for 118-136 Mhz)
>mounted on the roof of the shop I use for
>testing operation of the comms. But I haven't
>found any procedure for testing the transponder
>and ADS-B UAT which are 1090 Mhz and 978 Mhz
>without using their respective antennas.
Hmmmm . . . that's a bigger problem and I'm
not conversant with those systems. Waaayyy back
when I used to have one of those AirSport eavesdroppers to
check a transponder for gross functionality. You could
lay a 110v drill motor on the ground under the xponder
antenna and tie it into the ON position with a rubber
band.
Noise from the motor would tickle the transponder
into fits of apoplexy . . . it would begin to
squirt out mode c replies which could be read
on the AirSport faceplate. Kinda handy sometimes.
But all that newfangled stuff . . . I don't know.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: transmitter power attenuator |
Here's the AirSport Corporation electro-whizzy. Looks
like they are still in business. Haven't had any direct
contact with them in 10-15 years.
http://tinyurl.com/ca8mgkv
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: transmitter power attenuator |
Here's the AirSport Corporation electro-whizzy. Looks
like they are still in business. Haven't had any direct
contact with them in 10-15 years.
http://tinyurl.com/ca8mgkv
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobsV35B(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: transmitter power attenuator |
Good Evening Bob,
I bought one a year or so ago. The main thing I use it for is to be sure
what my transponder is sending to the FEDs.. I set it on top of my
glareshield and I can see what my stuff is telling the FED!
I like it, but would prefer that it be smaller.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 4/6/2013 8:50:35 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com writes:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
Here's the AirSport Corporation electro-whizzy. Looks
like they are still in business. Haven't had any direct
contact with them in 10-15 years.
http://tinyurl.com/ca8mgkv
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Dolphin Electrical Wire Connectors |
4/7/2013
Hello Again Bob Nuckolls, I thank you for your response copied below and
I accept your recommendation.
As an alternate means of connecting individual small wires together I
seem to recall a technique of using D sub pins and sockets crimped onto
the ends of the two wires and heat shrink tubing used to help hold the
wires together.
Is there anything published on using that technique?
Thank you,
=98OC=99 Baker
===
Bob Nuckolls wrote:
I think somebody else on the list commented on those. Those
are intended to telecommunications wiring in buildings.
Except for ribbon cable connectors INSIDE black boxes,
insulation displacement technology has never taken a
foothold in aviation. I don't think I'd recommend
them for airframe systems wiring.
Oh yea, one of the ELT manufacturers used RJ series
ID connectors on ordinary telephone wire to connect
their panel mounted controls with the remote mounted
transmitter. Haven't heard anything about lack of
success for that decision . . . but still . . . their
suitability to task is limited.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dolphin Electrical Wire Connectors |
At 11:16 PM 4/6/2013, you wrote:
>4/7/2013
>
>Hello Again Bob Nuckolls, I thank you for your response copied below
>and I accept your recommendation.
>
>As an alternate means of connecting individual small wires together
>I seem to recall a technique of using D sub pins and sockets crimped
>onto the ends of the two wires and heat shrink tubing used to help
>hold the wires together.
>
>Is there anything published on using that technique?
Not much to publish . . . I think there are some photos
of wires joined with d-bub crimp pins on the website.
You just put mating pins on the wires to be joined,
stick them together and cover with heatsrhink. You've
created one-pin connectors with soft housings.
I think this thread started with a stated
goal of dealing with the Ray Allen actuator
wires. I gave up trying to convince first father
and then sons of the value of 22 awg leads -AND-
replacing two white motor wires with separate
colors so that the builder had a 100% chance of
wiring it right the first time! Check out this
article
http://tinyurl.com/cmq7epd
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Page <jpx(at)qenesis.com> |
| Subject: | Re: transmitter power attenuator |
> From: Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com>
> But I haven't found any procedure
> for testing the transponder and ADS-B UAT which are 1090 Mhz and 978 Mhz
> without using their respective antennas.
Zaon makes two portable collision avoidance systems, the MRX and XRX.
Likely a local pilot will have one of these you could borrow.
Both will display the transponder code and altitude of what it is
transmitted by the local transponder.
Jeff Page
Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Butt Splice for #4 wire |
| From: | "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net> |
I have a #4 wire I need to put a new ring terminal on. It will make a tight reach.
I think it will work, but I considered a #4 butt splice - they make 'em. If
my new ring terminal makes it too short, my choice is adding a few inches of
new #4 with a butt splice, or replacing the entire 5 foot length (which won't
be easy to do).
Opinions, please
John
--------
#40572 Phase One complete and flying.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398043#398043
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: transmitter power attenuator |
At 09:07 PM 4/6/2013, you wrote:
>Good Evening Bob,
>
>I bought one a year or so ago. The main thing I use it for is to be
>sure what my transponder is sending to the FEDs.. I set it on top of
>my glareshield and I can see what my stuff is telling the FED!
>
>I like it, but would prefer that it be smaller.
If the original designer/manufacturer were still
in business, it might have become smaller by now.
I met Daryl and Pat Phillips in OSH about 1990.
Their mom-n-pop business in Salisaw OK was rather
young then. Daryl was the one and only designer and
software writer. He was using Motorola 6800 series
chips as I recall.
The thing uses a rather large battery.
They sold the business to one of their employees
some years ago. To be sure, more modern processors,
components and materials offer opportunity for
shrinking the size down . . . and even making it run
on three or four AA cells. But I don't think
that's going to happen now.
It IS a pretty slick gizmo.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Butt Splice for #4 wire |
At 09:40 AM 4/7/2013, you wrote:
>
>
>I have a #4 wire I need to put a new ring terminal on. It will make
>a tight reach. I think it will work, but I considered a #4 butt
>splice - they make 'em. If my new ring terminal makes it too short,
>my choice is adding a few inches of new #4 with a butt splice, or
>replacing the entire 5 foot length (which won't be easy to do).
How much original wire is easily accessible?
It would be decidedly unhandy to have a splice
in close proximity to the terminal end. Can you
cut the original wire back before splicing on
the extension?
What kind of #4 wire?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ralph Finch <ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Encapsulating connectors (Quest. for Bob) |
Bob, reading your on-line article (URL below) reminded me of a
long-standing question.
In your article you use a specialty adhesive for "potting" or encapsulating
the soldered pins on a 9-pin D-sub-miniature connector. Unable to locate
that particular connector, I have used clear RTV. However later I read that
because of the acid in the RTV compound, RTV can attack soldered joints
(e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTV_silicone#Disadvantages).
What compound, readily available, would you recommend for sealing or
encapsulating connectors?
On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 6:42 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/cmq7epd
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Encapsulating connectors (Quest. for Bob) |
At 09:59 AM 4/7/2013, you wrote:
>Bob, reading your on-line article (URL below) reminded me of a
>long-standing question.
>
>In your article you use a specialty adhesive for "potting"
>or encapsulating the soldered pins on a 9-pin D-sub-miniature
>connector. Unable to locate that particular connector . . .
Did you mean to say 'connector' or 'adhesive'?
The d-sub is ubiquitous and available about everywhere
not the least of which is Radio Shack as suggested in
the article.
> I have used clear RTV. However later I read that because of the
> acid in the RTV compound, RTV can attack soldered joints (e.g.
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTV_silicone#Disadvantages>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTV_silicone#Disadvantages).
"RTV" has been around for many years. I think I
first encountered one variant for the first time
while working at Hughes Aircraft back about 1963.
It smelled decidedly vinegar (acetic acid). RTV,
Room Temperature Vulcanizing, is a generic term that
speaks to hundreds of similar products. If one needs
the high temperature chemical resistance of silicon
encapsulants, there are 'electronic grade' RTVs. They
do not include acetic acid in their chemistry. I'm
pretty sure there are other forms equally free of
acid. One could also consider some of the acrylic
caulking compounds used for bathtubs and window
frames. Give it a sniff and avoid anything that
smells like pickles.
Sometime during "The Great Transition" from generators
to alternators at Cessna (about 1965) the regulator
of choice was a two-relay electro-mechanical
regulator from Ford.
http://tinyurl.com/d7ln4mt
Things moved along right smartly for a time
until field reports concerning alternator
runaway events. Failure analysis of the regulators
revealed that the plastic bobbin on which the
voltage regulation wires were wound was loose
on the pole core. The bobbin 'bounced' about
on the core causing failure of the small lead
wires. Deprived of any sense of voltage, the
regulator went balls-to-the-wall.
Somebody suggested that we pull all regulators
from stock, remove covers and spot-tack the
bobbins in place with RTV. Yeah, cool idea.
I don't recall if we did a field service bulletin
for doing the same thing on delivered aircraft
or perhaps the drill called for exchanging
regulators.
Again, things smoothed out until a short time
later, brand new 'modified' regulators from
stock failed to come alive in flight test.
Seems that fumes from curing RTV put enough
corrosion on the regulator contacts to disable
it. If the modification process had only
left the covers off for a few days to allow
all the fumes to dissipate, all would have been
right with the universe.
Needless to say, this triggered the Second Great
Thrashing to remove covers and buff contacts.
Ford eventually fixed this fundamental design flaw.
>What compound, readily available, would you recommend for sealing or
>encapsulating connectors?
The E6000 adhesive I've cited is everywhere.
Check the Walmart crafts and housewares adhesive
displays. ShoGoo sold in shoe stores is the
same stuff. Hardware and automotive parts stores
sell it under various sizes and trade names.
The common thread is water clear and smells like
dry cleaners.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Encapsulating connectors (Quest. for Bob) |
On 04/07/2013 11:57 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 09:59 AM 4/7/2013, you wrote:
>> Bob, reading your on-line article (URL below) reminded me of a
>> long-standing question.
>>
>> In your article you use a specialty adhesive for "potting"
>> or encapsulating the soldered pins on a 9-pin D-sub-miniature
>> connector. Unable to locate that particular connector . . .
>
> Did you mean to say 'connector' or 'adhesive'?
>
> The d-sub is ubiquitous and available about everywhere
> not the least of which is Radio Shack as suggested in
> the article.
>
>> I have used clear RTV. However later I read that because of the acid
>> in the RTV compound, RTV can attack soldered joints (e.g.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTV_silicone#Disadvantages
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTV_silicone#Disadvantages>).
>
> "RTV" has been around for many years. I think I
> first encountered one variant for the first time
> while working at Hughes Aircraft back about 1963.
> It smelled decidedly vinegar (acetic acid). RTV,
> Room Temperature Vulcanizing, is a generic term that
> speaks to hundreds of similar products. If one needs
> the high temperature chemical resistance of silicon
> encapsulants, there are 'electronic grade' RTVs. They
> do not include acetic acid in their chemistry. I'm
> pretty sure there are other forms equally free of
> acid. One could also consider some of the acrylic
> caulking compounds used for bathtubs and window
> frames. Give it a sniff and avoid anything that
> smells like pickles.
>
> Sometime during "The Great Transition" from generators
> to alternators at Cessna (about 1965) the regulator
> of choice was a two-relay electro-mechanical
> regulator from Ford.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/d7ln4mt
>
> Things moved along right smartly for a time
> until field reports concerning alternator
> runaway events. Failure analysis of the regulators
> revealed that the plastic bobbin on which the
> voltage regulation wires were wound was loose
> on the pole core. The bobbin 'bounced' about
> on the core causing failure of the small lead
> wires. Deprived of any sense of voltage, the
> regulator went balls-to-the-wall.
>
> Somebody suggested that we pull all regulators
> from stock, remove covers and spot-tack the
> bobbins in place with RTV. Yeah, cool idea.
> I don't recall if we did a field service bulletin
> for doing the same thing on delivered aircraft
> or perhaps the drill called for exchanging
> regulators.
>
> Again, things smoothed out until a short time
> later, brand new 'modified' regulators from
> stock failed to come alive in flight test.
> Seems that fumes from curing RTV put enough
> corrosion on the regulator contacts to disable
> it. If the modification process had only
> left the covers off for a few days to allow
> all the fumes to dissipate, all would have been
> right with the universe.
>
> Needless to say, this triggered the Second Great
> Thrashing to remove covers and buff contacts.
> Ford eventually fixed this fundamental design flaw.
>
>> What compound, readily available, would you recommend for sealing or
>> encapsulating connectors?
>
> The E6000 adhesive I've cited is everywhere.
> Check the Walmart crafts and housewares adhesive
> displays. ShoGoo sold in shoe stores is the
> same stuff. Hardware and automotive parts stores
> sell it under various sizes and trade names.
> The common thread is water clear and smells like
> dry cleaners.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
If an auto supply house is more convenient, look for 'sensor safe' on
the package of RTV.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Encapsulating connectors (Quest. for Bob) |
>If an auto supply house is more convenient, look for 'sensor safe'
>on the package of RTV.
I've not heard of that label. To be sure, in spite
of the acetic RTV capabilities it has for sure
been the source of some consternation. It's akin
to "test this product on some insignificant or
hidden surface before proceeding".
Thanks for the heads-up.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Encapsulating connectors (Quest. for Bob) |
On 04/07/2013 12:33 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>> If an auto supply house is more convenient, look for 'sensor safe' on
>> the package of RTV.
>
> I've not heard of that label. To be sure, in spite
> of the acetic RTV capabilities it has for sure
> been the source of some consternation. It's akin
> to "test this product on some insignificant or
> hidden surface before proceeding".
>
> Thanks for the heads-up.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
*
*
Googling 'RTV sensor safe' will yield a lot of hits. Here's one:
http://www.permatex.com/products/product-categories/gasketing/gasket-makers/permatex-sensor-safe-blue-rtv-silicone-gasket-maker-detail
The text on the Permatex web site says 'now with low odor formula'.
That's usually another tell that the acetic acid isn't in that
particular product.
Even the old-school looking Permatex clear RTV now claims to be good for
sealing electrical wire, but I'm not sure I'd rely on that.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Encapsulating connectors (Quest. for Bob) |
Another product to consider is "aquarium safe" RTV. I don't know if it
is safe for electrical components, but it is labeled as non toxic.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 04/07/2013 12:33 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>> If an auto supply house is more convenient, look for 'sensor safe' on
>> the package of RTV.
>
> I've not heard of that label. To be sure, in spite
> of the acetic RTV capabilities it has for sure
> been the source of some consternation. It's akin
> to "test this product on some insignificant or
> hidden surface before proceeding".
>
> Thanks for the heads-up.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: transmitter power attenuator |
| From: | Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com> |
Bob, Bob et al,
Thanks for the info... My primary concern at this time was to insure I
wouldn't damage the xponder upon power up if I inadvertently hit the ident
button. As far as test equipment goes the shop should be able
to verify operation when I get my pitot/static check. The ADS-B checkout
is another matter. The Navworx box does have a self test that validates it
is receiving the serial data from the alt. encoder and displays the
output on the EFIS screen. Still need to learn the procedure for
validating communication with the ground station. The technology is still
in it's infancy as the FEDs are in process of adding ground stations to
re-transmit traffic and weather data. I'm still learning... but that's the
idea isn't it!
Chris
On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 6:49 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 09:07 PM 4/6/2013, you wrote:
>
> Good Evening Bob,
>
> I bought one a year or so ago. The main thing I use it for is to be sure
> what my transponder is sending to the FEDs.. I set it on top of my
> glareshield and I can see what my stuff is telling the FED!
>
> I like it, but would prefer that it be smaller.
>
>
> If the original designer/manufacturer were still
> in business, it might have become smaller by now.
> I met Daryl and Pat Phillips in OSH about 1990.
> Their mom-n-pop business in Salisaw OK was rather
> young then. Daryl was the one and only designer and
> software writer. He was using Motorola 6800 series
> chips as I recall.
>
> The thing uses a rather large battery.
>
> They sold the business to one of their employees
> some years ago. To be sure, more modern processors,
> components and materials offer opportunity for
> shrinking the size down . . . and even making it run
> on three or four AA cells. But I don't think
> that's going to happen now.
>
> It IS a pretty slick gizmo.
>
>
> **
>
> ** Bob . . .
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: transmitter power attenuator |
| From: | Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com> |
Jeff,
Thanks... Great tip! I think my local FBO has them in a couple of
rentals.
chris
On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 7:00 AM, Jeff Page wrote:
>
> From: Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com>
>> But I haven't found any procedure
>> for testing the transponder and ADS-B UAT which are 1090 Mhz and 978 Mhz
>> without using their respective antennas.
>>
>
> Zaon makes two portable collision avoidance systems, the MRX and XRX.
> Likely a local pilot will have one of these you could borrow.
>
> Both will display the transponder code and altitude of what it is
> transmitted by the local transponder.
>
> Jeff Page
> Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lynn Cole <LynnCole(at)foxvalley.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Encapsulating connectors (Quest. for Bob) |
Most RTV contains arsenic to prevent mold from forming. You can't use
arsenic on an aquarium because it will kill the fish. Also, don't use
regular RTV on things like a dishwasher because you could get arsenic
poisoning.
-----
Lynn Cole
LynnCole(at)foxvalley.net
On Apr 7, 2013, at 1:15 PM, rayj wrote:
> Another product to consider is "aquarium safe" RTV. I don't know if
it is safe for electrical components, but it is labeled as non toxic.
> Raymond Julian
> Kettle River, MN.
>
> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
> On 04/07/2013 12:33 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>> If an auto supply house is more convenient, look for 'sensor safe'
on the package of RTV.
>>
>> I've not heard of that label. To be sure, in spite
>> of the acetic RTV capabilities it has for sure
>> been the source of some consternation. It's akin
>> to "test this product on some insignificant or
>> hidden surface before proceeding".
>>
>> Thanks for the heads-up.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Butt Splice for #4 wire |
| From: | "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net> |
Bob,
It's #4 welding wire. I have access to about 18" of it before it passes behind
the engine to the alternator. I get what you are saying - don't put a butt splice
close to the terminal.
I worked on it yesterday and the break was very close to the terminal. I was able
to put a new terminal on, losing only an inch or so of wire. I had to make
a minor reroute change, but made it fit. My biggest issue was keeping it away
from the exhaust pipes. I got it 2" away from the pipes and put a leftover piece
of firesleeve on it.
My biggest surprise was how the cable fatigued so fast. Obviously, engine vibration
took it's toll.
John
PS: I like your new book being bound, but I still like the ability to remove a
page for immediate reference. I keep both copies at the hangar.
--------
#40572 Phase One complete and flying.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398134#398134
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Bradburry <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Butt Splice for #4 wire |
John,
Are you saying that engine vibration caused a metal fatigue break in #4
welding wire while you were flying off your Phase 1?
Bill B
On 4/8/2013 9:37 AM, johngoodman wrote:
>
> Bob,
> It's #4 welding wire. I have access to about 18" of it before it passes behind
the engine to the alternator. I get what you are saying - don't put a butt splice
close to the terminal.
> I worked on it yesterday and the break was very close to the terminal. I was
able to put a new terminal on, losing only an inch or so of wire. I had to make
a minor reroute change, but made it fit. My biggest issue was keeping it away
from the exhaust pipes. I got it 2" away from the pipes and put a leftover piece
of firesleeve on it.
>
> My biggest surprise was how the cable fatigued so fast. Obviously, engine vibration
took it's toll.
> John
> PS: I like your new book being bound, but I still like the ability to remove
a page for immediate reference. I keep both copies at the hangar.
>
> --------
> #40572 Phase One complete and flying.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398134#398134
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Butt Splice for #4 wire |
| From: | "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net> |
[quote="bbradburry(at)bellsouth.n"]John,
Are you saying that engine vibration caused a metal fatigue break in #4
welding wire while you were flying off your Phase 1?
Bill B
On 4/8/2013 9:37 AM, johngoodman wrote:
[quote]
Bill,
No, I've been flying for almost 2 years. The wire was unsupported for the last
7" to 9" and I figure it was like a hand shake that wouldn't stop....
John
--------
#40572 Phase One complete and flying.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398139#398139
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ralph Finch <ralphmariafinch(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Encapsulating connectors (Quest. for Bob) |
Sorry, I meant adhesive of course. You and others correctly interpreted my
intent and I got lots of great answers...
Thanks everybody,
Ralph
On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
> Did you mean to say 'connector' or 'adhesive'?
> * *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com> |
| Subject: | Charging System Debug steps and success... |
Greetings All,
From time-to-time people have posted assorted problems, and gotten
answers to, charging system issues. Many of these are of the wandering
or oscillating voltage nature.
As my charging system (LongEz, externally regulator "ford-style"
charging with regulator and battery in the nose) developed an
oscillating attitude I had the "opportunity" to collect, review and then
apply the information Bob has generously provided and thought an
overview might prove useful for the next guy down the road. I'll start
with key summary points for those who don't have the current need or
desire to read through the details.
My symptoms were an oscillating (2 - 6 Hz maybe?) charging voltage
visible with the old (WesTach) panel meter. It was sufficient to pop
the over-voltage crowbar once. It might also be related to an transient
undervoltage alarm I got once.
After isolating the problem, I fixed it by replacing the store-bought
regulator connector (which had pig-tails, the bad connection was on the
factory-made regulator +V crimp) with good-quality Fast-ons direct to
the regulator. This dropped the alternator B+ to regulator V+
resistance from 528mOhms to ~140mOhms which fixed the problem. btw: the
140 ohms, which is still higher than I would like, seems to be roughly
evenly shared by the fuse-link, breaker and switch (and associated wiring).
The details and references for "the next guy":
The debug strategy was to start by checking the resistance (using
techniques appropriate for milliohm measurments), without doing any
disconnecting of the current loop path from alternator B+ to the
regulator and then back from the regulator ground (i.e. case) to the
alternator ground (i.e. case). My plan was to keep dividing the problem
in half to minimize debug time (i.e. binary search). I wanted to do as
much testing as I could without taking anything apart as I didn't want
to inadvertently change the problem (i.e. wiggle something and have the
problem go away...)
In the case that no problems were uncovered via the milliohm
measurements, I then planned to follow Bob's charging component problem
isolation technique which is in chapter 3 of the Aeroelectric connection
book. This involves making measurements while the engine is running but
I didn't need go to that step and I certainly didn't want to start
there. For lots of charging system background and debug information,
search Bob's site (www.aeroelectric.com) for "charging" and ignore all
the stuff on plug-in-the-wall battery chargers.
Bob has written articles and has product related to making good milliohm
measurements using an applied current. I prefer having the current
source (whether a bench supply or other similar to Bob's milliohm
probes) separate rather than combining it with the volt-meter probes.
Also, as Bob has covered in his articles, you don't need a
regulated-to-a-known-value current source. It suffices to have an
unregulated current source (like a D-cell, in a pinch) if you are using
a second meter to measure the current. For more information on accurate
milliohm measurements, search Bob's site for "milliohm".
I conceptually divided the loop in half (ground side vs power side) and
picked the ground side first. I put a current source (bench supply with
an accurate current limit set to 1A (and set the voltage limit to be 2V
though I didn't expect it to ever run in voltage mode regulation))
between the alternator case and the regulator case (which, on my LongEz
is the length of the entire aircraft). I then measured the voltage
(using separate wires) between the two cases and got 33.9mV which, at
one amp, means 33.9mOhms. This is well below the ~200mOhms threshold
area of concern (per Bob's annotations contained in
"Know_Your_Charging_System.pdf"). Therefore the problem is in the V+ side.
I repeated this on the V+ side which is a little bit trickier to measure
as the "master" progressive switch needs to be in the "Alternator on"
position which can add more currents to deal with (though, it turns out,
not much). With the switch on, I measured the voltage from alternator
B+ to regulator V+ both with the current source connected, and not
connected. The value I care about is the connected value minus the not
connected value. (though it still applies, I won't repeat this detail
from now on). I measured 528mV (=528mOhms) which is well above the
200mOhm area of concern. So I've identified one (but maybe only the
first?, it turned out to be only) problem.
I then listed all (well, sort of, I didn't list both side of each
wire...) of the connections between Alternator B+ and regulator V+. For
me, starting from B+: Near side of load-meter shunt, near side of ANL,
near side of fuse-link, near side of over-voltage breaker, nearside of
alternator switch, V+ at the regulator.
I kept the current source running between B+ on the alternator and
regulator V+ (no reason to move it) and picked the point in the middle
(near side ANL), B+ to near side ANL was only 11mV (=11mOhms). I
continued the divide (roughly in half) and conquer approach (continuing
to measure from B+ to my point of interest) which led me quickly to the
crimp at the regulator.
In the future I *might* start by measuring any connections I didn't
personally make (of which there are very very few) before switching to
the more disciplined binary search approach. In this case I would have
gotten lucky but, in truth, it would not have saved much time. The time
was spent going through Bob's articles and developing a plan. The
execution of the plan went very fast.
Repair and run-up test showed success.
Specific Bob articles I found helpful (in addition to those on milliohm
measurement):
Know_Your_Charging_System.pdf
03_Alternator_12A2.pdf (i.e. the current chapter 3 in the aeroelectric
connection, start at page 3-7 for debug info)
Happy debugging!
Steve Stearns
Boulder/Longmont, Colorado
Restoring (since 1/07) and flying again (8/11!): N45FC O235 Longeze
Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs)
Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Butt Splice for #4 wire |
At 08:37 AM 4/8/2013, you wrote:
Bob,
It's #4 welding wire. I have access to about 18" of it before it
passes behind the engine to the alternator. I get what you are saying
- don't put a butt splice close to the terminal.
I worked on it yesterday and the break was very close to the
terminal. I was able to put a new terminal on, losing only an inch or
so of wire. I had to make a minor reroute change, but made it fit. My
biggest issue was keeping it away from the exhaust pipes. I got it 2"
away from the pipes and put a leftover piece of firesleeve on it.
My biggest surprise was how the cable fatigued so fast. Obviously,
engine vibration took it's toll.
Did you put heat-shrink over the wire-grip and
wire? More specifically, double-walled
heatshrink . . . very stiff?
Whether crimped or soldered, stranded wires
experience a stress concentration at the
transition point from solid to stranded. When
we sold terminal kits for installation
by soldering
http://tinyurl.com/ct36xen
the kit included a 2" piece of double-wall
heatshrink to provide insulation support.
John
PS: I like your new book being bound, but I still like the ability to
remove a page for immediate reference. I keep both copies at the hangar.
Many builders have expressed a preference for
the 3-ring format. You can take your bound book
to a copy/print shop like Kinkos and have it
drilled for ring binder. They also have a paper
cutter that will shear off the spine.
Cut the spine off first so that the drilled
holes have the right edge margins.
Do you still have the terminal that broke off?
I'd like to have it if you could see fit to
mail it to me.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Butt Splice for #4 wire |
| From: | "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net> |
> Did you put heat-shrink over the wire-grip and
> wire? More specifically, double-walled
> heatshrink . . . very stiff?
>
> Whether crimped or soldered, stranded wires
> experience a stress concentration at the
> transition point from solid to stranded. When
> we sold terminal kits for installation
> by soldering
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ct36xen
>
> the kit included a 2" piece of double-wall
> heatshrink to provide insulation support.
>
Bob,
I'm pretty sure it's regular heatshrink, although I have a couple of pieces of
the double-wall stuff laying around.
> Do you still have the terminal that broke off?
> I'd like to have it if you could see fit to
> mail it to me.
Bob,
Yes, I do still have it. My e-mail is johngoodmanATearthlink.net
Send an address, and I'll mail it. The fatigue point is very close to the terminal.
John
--------
#40572 Phase One complete and flying.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398187#398187
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris" <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com> |
| Subject: | Butt Splice for #4 wire |
John,
Did I miss it - I am sorry, but can you explain how you discovered the
problem? Was it complete disconnect? Was the break on the alternator end or
firewall end?
Thanks
Chris Lucas
N919AR
40072
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
johngoodman
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 10:41 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Butt Splice for #4 wire
-->
I have a #4 wire I need to put a new ring terminal on. It will make a tight
reach. I think it will work, but I considered a #4 butt splice - they make
'em. If my new ring terminal makes it too short, my choice is adding a few
inches of new #4 with a butt splice, or replacing the entire 5 foot length
(which won't be easy to do).
Opinions, please
John
--------
#40572 Phase One complete and flying.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398043#398043
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Charging System Debug steps and success... |
At 12:04 PM 4/8/2013, you wrote:
Greetings All,
From time-to-time people have posted assorted problems, and gotten
answers to, charging system issues. Many of these are of the
wandering or oscillating voltage nature.
Yes. The "galloping ammeter" syndrome is almost
exclusive to alternator/regulator systems wherein
the wire with duties to sense bus voltage ALSO
carries alternator field current. This is a VERY
common configuration in tens of millions of cars
and tens of thousands of airplanes. A typical at-risk
system uses the legacy FORD regulator featured in
many of my writings and schematics.
As my charging system (LongEz, externally regulator "ford-style"
charging with regulator and battery in the nose) developed an
oscillating attitude I had the "opportunity" to collect, review and
then apply the information Bob has generously provided and thought an
overview might prove useful for the next guy down the road. I'll
start with key summary points for those who don't have the current
need or desire to read through the details.
My symptoms were an oscillating (2 - 6 Hz maybe?) charging voltage
visible with the old (WesTach) panel meter. It was sufficient to pop
the over-voltage crowbar once. It might also be related to an
transient undervoltage alarm I got once.
After isolating the problem, I fixed it by replacing the store-bought
regulator connector (which had pig-tails, the bad connection was on
the factory-made regulator +V crimp) with good-quality Fast-ons
direct to the regulator. This dropped the alternator B+ to regulator
V+ resistance from 528mOhms to ~140mOhms which fixed the
problem. btw: the 140 ohms, which is still higher than I would like,
seems to be roughly evenly shared by the fuse-link, breaker and
switch (and associated wiring).
Of course the ideal supply loop resistance is
zero ohms. However a Bode plot of the closed-loop
response of the alternator-regulator-aircraft
system usually shows that several hundred mOhms
can be tolerated before control loop stability
margin becomes risky.
The details and references for "the next guy":
The debug strategy was to start by checking the resistance (using
techniques appropriate for milliohm measurments), without doing any
disconnecting of the current loop path from alternator B+ to the
regulator and then back from the regulator ground (i.e. case) to the
alternator ground (i.e. case). My plan was to keep dividing the
problem in half to minimize debug time (i.e. binary search). I
wanted to do as much testing as I could without taking anything apart
as I didn't want to inadvertently change the problem (i.e. wiggle
something and have the problem go away...)
In the case that no problems were uncovered via the milliohm
measurements, I then planned to follow Bob's charging component
problem isolation technique which is in chapter 3 of the Aeroelectric
connection book. This involves making measurements while the engine
is running but I didn't need go to that step and I certainly didn't
want to start there. For lots of charging system background and
debug information, search Bob's site (www.aeroelectric.com) for
"charging" and ignore all the stuff on plug-in-the-wall battery chargers.
Bob has written articles and has product related to making good
milliohm measurements using an applied current. I prefer having the
current source (whether a bench supply or other similar to Bob's
milliohm probes) separate rather than combining it with the
volt-meter probes.
Also, as Bob has covered in his articles, you don't need a
regulated-to-a-known-value current source. It suffices to have an
unregulated current source (like a D-cell, in a pinch) if you are
using a second meter to measure the current. For more information on
accurate milliohm measurements, search Bob's site for "milliohm".
I conceptually divided the loop in half (ground side vs power side)
and picked the ground side first. I put a current source (bench
supply with an accurate current limit set to 1A (and set the voltage
limit to be 2V though I didn't expect it to ever run in voltage mode
regulation)) between the alternator case and the regulator case
(which, on my LongEz is the length of the entire aircraft). I then
measured the voltage (using separate wires) between the two cases and
got 33.9mV which, at one amp, means 33.9mOhms. This is well below
the ~200mOhms threshold area of concern (per Bob's annotations
contained in "Know_Your_Charging_System.pdf"). Therefore the problem
is in the V+ side.
I repeated this on the V+ side which is a little bit trickier to
measure as the "master" progressive switch needs to be in the
"Alternator on" position which can add more currents to deal with
(though, it turns out, not much). With the switch on, I measured the
voltage from alternator B+ to regulator V+ both with the current
source connected, and not connected. The value I care about is the
connected value minus the not connected value. (though it still
applies, I won't repeat this detail from now on). I measured 528mV
(=528mOhms) which is well above the 200mOhm area of concern. So I've
identified one (but maybe only the first?, it turned out to be only) problem.
I then listed all (well, sort of, I didn't list both side of each
wire...) of the connections between Alternator B+ and regulator V+.
For me, starting from B+: Near side of load-meter shunt, near side of
ANL, near side of fuse-link, near side of over-voltage breaker,
nearside of alternator switch, V+ at the regulator.
I kept the current source running between B+ on the alternator and
regulator V+ (no reason to move it) and picked the point in the
middle (near side ANL), B+ to near side ANL was only 11mV
(=11mOhms). I continued the divide (roughly in half) and conquer
approach (continuing to measure from B+ to my point of interest)
which led me quickly to the crimp at the regulator.
In the future I *might* start by measuring any connections I didn't
personally make (of which there are very very few) before switching
to the more disciplined binary search approach. In this case I would
have gotten lucky but, in truth, it would not have saved much
time. The time was spent going through Bob's articles and developing
a plan. The execution of the plan went very fast.
Repair and run-up test showed success.
Specific Bob articles I found helpful (in addition to those on
milliohm measurement):
Know_Your_Charging_System.pdf
03_Alternator_12A2.pdf (i.e. the current chapter 3 in the
aeroelectric connection, start at page 3-7 for debug info)
Happy debugging!
The phenomenon we're exploring is the twin brother
of a 'ground loop'. In a ground loop, a potential
noise current shares a conduction path with a potential
victim (audio system, radio, etc). In our 'buss-loop',
a noisy current (field supply) shares a pathway with
a potential victim (voltage regulator).
Operating currents for the alternator field can
be anywhere between a few hundred milliamps (very
light load, high rpm) to 3 or 4 amps (low rpm,
high, load). The number and kind of accessories
turned on at the time have a second order effect
on control loop stability.
If you have 500 milliohms of field supply resistance
feeding a moderately loaded alternator current of
say 2 amps, then the 2 amp x 0.5 ohms or 1 volt
'modulation' of voltage at the regulator's
A/S terminals presents as a 1 volt error in the desired
regulation set point. This is not a guarantee for
unstable operation but the risks are very high.
Wire resistance in the rest of the system has very
low to zero risk for setting up the same condition.
This problem came to light early on for single engine
Cessnas. I addition to conductors that ran from
bus to regulator, there were ohmic joints, (crimped
pins, engaged pins, fast-ons, switch saddles, switch
contacts, etc). I forget the exact number but I think
I recall something like 19 ohmic joints in the Cessnas,
far more than any other TC aircraft.
About once a year I get an email from a TC Cessna
owner asking about fixes for the 'galloping ammeter".
Quite often, replacing one item in the constellation of
system components provides relief . . . but it is temporary.
My advice is to start at the bus and replace EVERYTHING
with ohmic joints starting with breaker, master switch
and it's fast-on terminals, and crimped on pins in all
the Mate-n-Lok connectors.
This 'shotgun' approach will reduce total path resistance
to a value close to factory original values. Assuming
the modern regulators have similar stability models,
this approach should set the system up for another 40
years of stable operation.
Steve, thank you so much for the validation of the
simple-ideas offered as to root cause and remedy for
this unique phenomenon. Good work my friend!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Butt Splice for #4 wire |
| From: | "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net> |
toaster73(at)embarqmail.c wrote:
> John,
> Did I miss it - I am sorry, but can you explain how you discovered the
> problem? Was it complete disconnect? Was the break on the alternator end or
> firewall end?
> Thanks
> Chris Lucas
> N919AR
> 40072
>
> --
The break was on the starter power lug. I have two wires on that lug - a #2 from
the rear battery, and a #4 that goes around the engine to the lug on an ANL
type fuse connected to the alternator - that's how the battery recharges.
A couple of flights ago I noticed that I only had about 12V on the battery after
start, but my backup battery was fine. I figured the battery was beginning to
fail, or there was some kind of grounded lead. I was getting large amp draws
during start, so I figured that it had something to do with the starter/solenoid.
I pulled the cowling and concentrated on the positive lead on the solenoid,
but the big cables were getting in my way. I decided to remove them to get
more room.
The #4 looked fine as I removed the nut, but as soon as a pulled it off the lug,
the terminal was only hanging on by a couple of thin wires and a small piece
of the heatshrink. The only thing that had been keeping it together was the heatshrink
and the natural propensity of the wire to stay in place.
My only explanation is that the 7", or so, of cable between the terminal end and
the first adel clamp, had enough weight and motion to respond to vibrations,
and eventually fatigue the cable.
Hope this explains it.
John
--------
#40572 Phase One complete and flying.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398235#398235
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Diagnostic Help Please: Audio is Weak and Scratchy |
| From: | Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> |
Here's an update. I took the very nicely detailed instructions from
Charlie to the hangar today and tried running the various inputs
directly to the headset. The good news is that the 430 and iso amp
worked perfectly. When I got down to testing the intercom by itself,
I still had the problem, so I ran new temporary wires to my temporary
test jack, and everything worked. I started rebuilding from there,
with the pilot's mic jack first. When I added the phone jack, the
problem came back. I started checking continuity from the jack to the
intercom connector and found the problem- I had not grounded the
jacks. To verify the problem, I ran a jumper from the jack's ring to
the ground tab, and the problem went away immediately. Back when I
did the initial install, I had the phone jacks grounded locally to the
airframe. Some time later I read that it was better to isolate the
headset jacks from the airframe and ground them up front with the rest
of the avionics grounds, so I drilled the holes up to size and
installed the insulating washers. Then I omitted the step of running
the ground wires! Fortunately my jacks were wired with a 3-conductor
shielded cable, so I had an idle wire in the cable already. I spent a
few hours today getting those cables adjusted so that i could connect
the idle conductor. I had to leave before I could get it all wired up
to test, but I think this was one of my biggest problems. Thanks
again to Charlie for the strategy. Now that I have the equipment and
systems in place, I can test the rest of the wiring as I go, adding
one source at a time to make sure that I don't have any other
problems. This wasn't an option during the initial wiring, because I
didn't have the avionics on hand yet. One thing that I haven't done
yet is to run a separate ground wire for the 3.5mm audio in and audio
out jacks, which are mounted in the panel. Should I try to isolate
their grounds? I'm not sure if I'll be able to find an insulating
washer in that size anyway.
Chris's concern is a good one, which Flightcom addresses by installing
a little toggle switch at each jack station. In mono mode it opens
the circuit between the second audio output and the intercom. In
stereo mode it closes the circuit. If you configure it incorrectly,
the result is either a tone or a non-stereo output, depending on the
situation. That function appears to be working.
On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 3:14 PM, Christopher Cee Stone
wrote:
> Jared...
>
> One other potential low impedance fault is if using stereo headphone jacks
> and connecting both tip and ring to audio high. When a mono headphone plug
> is used it shorts the ring to audio lo (ground) and results in low or no
> audio from the connected source(s).
>
> Chris Stone
> RV-8
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 4:52 AM, Jared Yates wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you very much Charlie, I'll try those procedures and report back
>> when complete.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 5, 2013, at 20:46, Charlie England wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > On 04/05/2013 03:40 PM, Jared Yates wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I've been testing my audio system and have encountered poor
>> >> performance. Does anyone have any suggestions for what to check?
>> >> Here is the problem:
>> >>
>> >> All audio through the headsets is too quiet, and pretty scratchy. This
>> >> applies to radio reception, intercom audio, Dynon voice out, and music
>> >> input. With the intercom volume, headset volume, and individual device
>> >> volume all the way up, the total volume is about where I would want to
>> >> have it with 25% volume selected instead. The issue seems to afflict
>> >> each of the various inputs to a similar degree.
>> >>
>> >> Here is the setup:
>> >> New construction, wired by me (a non-professional, so anything is
>> >> possible)
>> >> The airframe is a steel tube 4-place fuselage with the mic and audio
>> >> headset jacks isolated from ground, as verified by voltmeter
>> >> continuity checks.
>> >> I used shielded cables to connect the intercom and the mic and stereo
>> >> phone jacks, with the shields connected at intercom end to each other
>> >> and not connected to anything at the jacks.
>> >> I have a self-assembled AEC 9009 Audio Iso Amp handling VHF nav audio
>> >> on one channel, dynon warnings on one channel, left music in on one
>> >> channel, and right music in on one channel, with the 9009's output
>> >> going into the intercom aux input
>> >> The intercom is a Flightcom 403, with the pilot wires going to the
>> >> left front seat, copilot wires to the right front seat, and passenger
>> >> jacks to the back two seats.
>> >> The GNS430 is the only radio, with com audio routed directly to the
>> >> intercom per the intercom directions.
>> >> I'm testing with two known-good David Clark headsets (one stereo, one
>> >> mono) and one brand new Lightspeed headset, all with freshly buffed,
>> >> shiny connectors.
>> >> I'm using battery power only, since the engine is not installed
>> >> presently. I've tried the battery by itself and the battery with the
>> >> charger connected. The voltage range is about 13v to 14v for those
>> >> two cases, but I can't see that changing from one to the other makes
>> >> any difference in the audio system issues.
>> >>
>> >> Here is what I have tried so far with no improvements:
>> >> First, I unplugged aec9009. I lost the channels that run through it,
>> >> but the remaining intercom and VHF com audio were still the same.
>> >> Then I swapped intercom for the bypass plug that I built per the
>> >> intercom manual. this plug is designed to connect the pilot seat
>> >> jacks directly to the radio, so that the airplane can still function
>> >> as a single-place if the intercom is removed entirely. As with the
>> >> 9009, I lose intercom function in this configuration (as I should),
>> >> but the vhf com audio is still weak and scratchy.
>> >> I tried changing the Headsets around in various combinations to
>> >> various seats with no appreciable change.
>> >> I changed out the volume resistors in the AEC9009 to increase the
>> >> volume of those channels, and the volume did go up on the channel in
>> >> question, but the quality really suffered.
>> >> I'm not really sure what to try next. Does anyone have any
>> >> suggestions for what to check?
>> > The fuzzy part sounds like some segment in the audio chain is being
>> > overdriven by a source, or is being asked to supply more than it's capable
>> > of giving. The low level could be too much of a load on the output (load
>> > impedance too low). A partial short to ground (from an audio 'hi' to an
>> > audio 'Lo', or to the chassis) is the 1st thing that comes to mind. Having
>> > both fuzzy & low volume from multiple sources *might* mean that you have two
>> > or more outputs trying to feed into each other, with no isolation resistors
>> > between them. (This will make all affected outputs 'think' that they are
>> > effectively shorted to ground because each is trying to drive a very low
>> > impedance load.)
>> >
>> > So to proceed, 'Divide & conquer.'
>> >
>> > It's extremely unlikely that you have the same problem with every
>> > source, so job one is eliminating the known-good items. I'd get a set of
>> > clip leads, and extra phone jack, & start testing each source by itself,
>> > without it connected to any other component. Isolate the output line
>> > (typically 'audio hi' on the hookup diagram) from the rest of the plane.
>> > Hook a clip lead from that wire to the tip terminal of your spare jack. Hook
>> > another clip lead from the ground ('audio Lo') to the shield (ground)
>> > terminal of the jack. Plug in a known-good headset & listen to that source.
>> > Sound ok? If not troubleshoot settings, ground paths, etc. If good, move to
>> > the next source & repeat. Annddd repeat, until you've checked all or until
>> > you find a bad component.
>> >
>> > If all is good, hook one (and only one) source to the iso amp & move
>> > your test jack to the iso amp's output (with it hooked to nothing else). If
>> > bad, there's your problem. All good? that means the iso amp is almost
>> > certainly good, too.
>> >
>> > Hook the iso amp to the intercom's input again (with nothing else hooked
>> > to the input). Move the test jack to the intercom's output (with nothing
>> > else hooked up to the output lead). Listen again. If bad, check intercom
>> > settings (especially if there is an internal gain setting or aux input
>> > volume control in the intercom).
>> >
>> > All good? Without hooking up the 430, add one component to the iso amp &
>> > check for level/quality at the intercom output. (We've actually skipped a
>> > few steps by doing this, but if one iso input is good, odds are high that
>> > all will be good.)
>> >
>> > All sources (except 430) good? Use your test jack to check the 430, with
>> > its output connected to nothing but the test jack. Bad? There's your
>> > problem. Good? Proceed.
>> >
>> > Now look at how the 430 ties to the intercom. In your message, you say
>> > that the iso amp is hooked direct to the intercom. Is this a separate input
>> > on the intercom? It probably is, but if it's tied to the same input with the
>> > iso amp, that might well be your problem. Different input? Move your test
>> > jack to the intercom output & listen to the 430 through the intercom. Bad?
>> > Re-check wiring & intercom settings, then check the intercom itself, if
>> > possible. Still good? Re-check your headphone wiring harness in the plane.
>> >
>> > Having said all that, I'll say this: I've worked on a couple of 430
>> > installations for friends, & they can be real snakes to troubleshoot. The
>> > most common issue is ground pins on the d-Sub connectors. There are quite
a
>> > few, & if you miss one, stuff isn't going to work (not every ground terminal
>> > is common to every other ground terminal in those d-Sub connectors). On one
>> > system, I spoke with directly to a Garmin factory tech while holding the
>> > installation manual in my hand, and read off the pins that were connected.
>> > Even the Garmin tech failed to mention a (ground) pin that needed to be
>> > connected.
>> >
>> > Charlie
>> > (pro audio tech, consumer electronics tech and industrial electronics
>> > tech in various former lives)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> -
>> ric-List"
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> ==========
>> MS -
>> k">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> e -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Kilford <james(at)etravel.org> |
Thanks Bob. I'll give it a check with the Eric finger temperature scale too.
On 3 April 2013 19:14, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
>
>
> At 11:45 AM 4/3/2013, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, that's more tricky. The firewall on this plane (Jodel) is a
>> sandwich of plywood and balsa... so I'm hoping the heatsink will
>> suffice. Worse-case scenario -- I could move the diode to the engine
>> compartment side of the firewall, which is covered with a thin sheet
>> of stainless steel.
>
>
> Hmmmm . . . okay. The heat sink you built
> up from sheet metal will be fine. Don't
> move it to the other side of the firewall.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Kilford <james(at)etravel.org> |
Thanks Rick. A handy device and good price too. Not sure it would
make sense getting it across the pond, but I note that similar devices
are available for about the same money. It could be a useful and
interesting investment.
James
On 3 April 2013 16:35, Richard Girard wrote:
> James, One of these should give you some numbers to play with to see how
> well your heatsink is working as you ebuss is loaded up.
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/infrared-thermometer-with-laser-targeting-non-contact-69465.html
>
> Harbor Freight has a coupon out this month that reduces the price a further
> $10 to $25.99.
> Just a thought
>
> Rick Girard
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 9:41 AM, James Kilford wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Bob, I have a theoretical max load of a little under 7A.
>>
>> I agree with your sentiments about the essential bus. I don't anticipate
>> needing it... but it's nice to know that it's there...
>>
>> James
>>
>> On 3 April 2013 14:52, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At 07:31 AM 4/3/2013, you wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On a related note, is there a way to determine if a heatsink is large
>>>> enough?
>>>>
>>>> I made a heatsink out of some scrap .020" aluminium -- half a dozen
>>>> pieces of varying lengths, stacked and folded up at the ends to form fins.
>>>> I've bolted it under the rectifier with some heatsink paste.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Seems like quite a lot of aluminium, and plenty of surface area, but it
>>>> would nice to find a way of evaluating its effectiveness... other than
>>>> waiting for the smell of burning semiconductor...
>>>
>>>
>>> What are your e-bus normal running loads?
>>> I would not expect loads of 10A or less to
>>> call for anything other than to simply mount
>>> the diode a metal surface in the airplane.
>>>
>>> I could run some tests here for higher currents
>>> but keep in mind that the e-bus is for 'endurance'
>>> loads . . . minimal equipment to conduct the
>>> en route phase of flight . . . reduced energy
>>> demands to save the battery for approach to
>>> landing.
>>>
>>> I suggested that big fat diode because of it's
>>> convenience for mounting and wiring. The fact that
>>> it is rated for 25 or 35 amps was in no way intended
>>> to suggest that e-bus loads should/could be
>>> that large.
>>>
>>> The e-bus is a risk reduction feature that is
>>> not likely to be needed more than once over the
>>> lifetime of your airplane. It's a feature that
>>> offers a degrees of System Reliability that
>>> reduces probability that a main alternator failure
>>> will cause you to break a sweat.
>>>
>>> As a renter, I have never enjoyed access to features
>>> that we're building into OBAM aircraft. My personal
>>> endurance package was carried around in the flight
>>> bag. http://tinyurl.com/d5mrjgh
>>>
>>> In fact, I've not turned a VOR receiver on in nearly
>>> 20 years. Not since I discovered the capabilities
>>> of hand-held GPS receivers that were so cheap I could
>>> give them away as door prizes at my seminars! My last
>>> cross-country sojourns were managed with dual
>>> GPS receivers stuck between the glare-shield and
>>> windshield with little wads of windshield sealant.
>>>
>>> It didn't matter if the airplane was a J-3 or A-36,
>>> I was confident in my ability to get from point A to
>>> Point B whether the ship's electrical system was
>>> fully functional or not. That's a high degree of
>>> failure tolerance and system reliability.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob . . .
>>>
>>>
>>> ===================================
>>> -
>>> ric-List"
>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>> ===================================
>>> MS -
>>> k">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> ===================================
>>> e -
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> ===================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>
>
> --
> Zulu Delta
> Mk IIIC
> Thanks, Homer GBYM
>
> It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
> - Groucho Marx
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com> |
Everyone,=0A=0AIt isn't given on the website below what this device's tempe
rature range is, so I downloaded the manual.- Here are the specs:=0A*
Measurement Range: -36F to 968F (-38C to 520C)=0A* Accuracy: =B12% above
32F, =B14.5% below 41F=0A=0AIf you have uncalibrated fingers, this may be
the way to go. :)=0A-=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A_________________________
_______=0A From: James Kilford <james(at)etravel.org>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list@
matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 8:38 AM=0ASubject: Re: Aer
ames Kilford =0A=0AThanks Rick.- A handy device and go
od price too.- Not sure it would=0Amake sense getting it across the pond,
but I note that similar devices=0Aare available for about the same money.
- It could be a useful and=0Ainteresting investment.=0A=0AJames=0A=0A=0A
=0AOn 3 April 2013 16:35, Richard Girard wrote:=0A> J
ames, One of these should give you some numbers to play with to see how=0A>
well your heatsink is working as you ebuss is loaded up.=0A>=0A> http://ww
w.harborfreight.com/infrared-thermometer-with-laser-targeting-non-contact-6
9465.html=0A>=0A> Harbor Freight has a coupon out this month that reduces t
he price a further=0A> $10 to $25.99.=0A> Just a thought=0A>=0A> Rick Girar
d=0A>=0A>=0A> On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 9:41 AM, James Kilford <james@etravel.
org> wrote:=0A>>=0A>> Thanks Bob, I have a theoretical max load of a little
under 7A.=0A>>=0A>> I agree with your sentiments about the essential bus.
- I don't anticipate=0A>> needing it... but it's nice to know that it's t
here...=0A>>=0A>> James=0A>>=0A>> On 3 April 2013 14:52, Robert L. Nuckolls
, III=0A>> wrote:=0A>>>=0A>>> --> AeroElect
ric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"=0A>>> <nuckolls.bob@a
eroelectric.com>=0A>>>=0A>>> At 07:31 AM 4/3/2013, you wrote:=0A>>>>=0A>>>>
On a related note, is there a way to determine if a heatsink is large=0A>>
>> enough? =C2=0A>>>>=0A>>>> I made a heatsink out of some scrap .020" alum
inium -- half a dozen=0A>>>> pieces of varying lengths, stacked and folded
up at the ends to form fins. =C2=0A>>>> I've bolted it under the rectifier
with some heatsink paste. =C2=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>> Seems like quite a lot o
f aluminium, and plenty of surface area, but it=0A>>>> would nice to find a
way of evaluating its effectiveness... other than=0A>>>> waiting for the s
mell of burning semiconductor...=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>- - What are your e-
bus normal running loads?=0A>>>- - I would not expect loads of 10A or
less to=0A>>>- - call for anything other than to simply mount=0A>>>-
- the diode a metal surface in the airplane.=0A>>>=0A>>>- - I coul
d run some tests here for higher currents=0A>>>- - but keep in mind th
at the e-bus is for 'endurance'=0A>>>- - loads . . . minimal equipment
to conduct the=0A>>>- - en route phase of flight . . . reduced energy
=0A>>>- - demands to save the battery for approach to=0A>>>- - la
nding.=0A>>>=0A>>>- - - I suggested that big fat diode because of it
's=0A>>>- - convenience for mounting and wiring. The fact that=0A>>>
- - it is rated for 25 or 35 amps was in no way intended=0A>>>- -
to suggest that e-bus loads should/could be=0A>>>- - that large.=0A>>
>=0A>>>- - The e-bus is a risk reduction feature that is=0A>>>- -
not likely to be needed more than once over the=0A>>>- - lifetime of
your airplane. It's a feature that=0A>>>- - offers a degrees of System
Reliability that=0A>>>- - reduces probability that a main alternator
failure=0A>>>- - will cause you to break a sweat.=0A>>>=0A>>>- -
As a renter, I have never enjoyed access to features=0A>>>- - that we'
re building into OBAM aircraft. My personal=0A>>>- - endurance package
was carried around in the flight=0A>>>- - bag. http://tinyurl.com/d5m
rjgh=0A>>>=0A>>>- - In fact, I've not turned a VOR receiver on in near
ly=0A>>>- - 20 years. Not since I discovered the capabilities=0A>>>-
- of hand-held GPS receivers that were so cheap I could=0A>>>- - g
ive them away as door prizes at my seminars! My last=0A>>>- - cross-co
untry sojourns were managed with dual=0A>>>- - GPS receivers stuck bet
ween the glare-shield and=0A>>>- - windshield with little wads of wind
shield sealant.=0A>>>=0A>>>- - It didn't matter if the airplane was a
J-3 or A-36,=0A>>>- - I was confident in my ability to get from point
A to=0A>>>- - Point B whether the ship's electrical system was=0A>>>
- - fully functional or not. That's a high degree of=0A>>>- - fai
lure tolerance and system reliability.=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>- Bob . .
.=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>> ==================
===================0A>>> -=0A>>> ric-Li
st"=0A>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric
-List=0A>>> =====================
================0A>>> MS -=0A>>> k">http://fo
rums.matronics.com=0A>>> ================
=====================0A>>> e -=0A>>
>- - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Admin.=0A>>> t="_blank">http://ww
w.matronics.com/contribution=0A>>> =============
========================0A>>>
=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List=0A>> tp://forums.matronics.com=0A>> _blan
k">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A>>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> --=0A> Zulu D
elta=0A> Mk IIIC=0A> Thanks, Homer GBYM=0A>=0A> It isn't necessary to have
relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.=0A>- - Groucho Marx=0A>
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Diagnostic Help Please: Audio is Weak and Scratchy |
| From: | Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> |
I think my audio problems are just about resolved. The only problem left is when
I connect the AEC amp to the intercom inputs, the sound is loud and distorted.
When I connect those outputs directly to the aviation headset jack instead,
it sounds great. Flightcom says that they are expecting the input to be from
something like an mp3 player. I'm taking the output from the AEC's pins 6 and
6. What do I need to put in those lines to bring the AEC's output to something
similar to an mp3 player? Flightcom suggests "dual 10k audio taper" potentiometers
when connecting 8 ohm speaker inputs, but I'm not sure if the output from
the AEC is 8 ohm.
On Apr 5, 2013, at 16:40, Jared Yates wrote:
> I've been testing my audio system and have encountered poor
> performance. Does anyone have any suggestions for what to check?
> Here is the problem:
>
> All audio through the headsets is too quiet, and pretty scratchy. This
> applies to radio reception, intercom audio, Dynon voice out, and music
> input. With the intercom volume, headset volume, and individual device
> volume all the way up, the total volume is about where I would want to
> have it with 25% volume selected instead. The issue seems to afflict
> each of the various inputs to a similar degree.
>
> Here is the setup:
> New construction, wired by me (a non-professional, so anything is possible)
> The airframe is a steel tube 4-place fuselage with the mic and audio
> headset jacks isolated from ground, as verified by voltmeter
> continuity checks.
> I used shielded cables to connect the intercom and the mic and stereo
> phone jacks, with the shields connected at intercom end to each other
> and not connected to anything at the jacks.
> I have a self-assembled AEC 9009 Audio Iso Amp handling VHF nav audio
> on one channel, dynon warnings on one channel, left music in on one
> channel, and right music in on one channel, with the 9009's output
> going into the intercom aux input
> The intercom is a Flightcom 403, with the pilot wires going to the
> left front seat, copilot wires to the right front seat, and passenger
> jacks to the back two seats.
> The GNS430 is the only radio, with com audio routed directly to the
> intercom per the intercom directions.
> I'm testing with two known-good David Clark headsets (one stereo, one
> mono) and one brand new Lightspeed headset, all with freshly buffed,
> shiny connectors.
> I'm using battery power only, since the engine is not installed
> presently. I've tried the battery by itself and the battery with the
> charger connected. The voltage range is about 13v to 14v for those
> two cases, but I can't see that changing from one to the other makes
> any difference in the audio system issues.
>
> Here is what I have tried so far with no improvements:
> First, I unplugged aec9009. I lost the channels that run through it,
> but the remaining intercom and VHF com audio were still the same.
> Then I swapped intercom for the bypass plug that I built per the
> intercom manual. this plug is designed to connect the pilot seat
> jacks directly to the radio, so that the airplane can still function
> as a single-place if the intercom is removed entirely. As with the
> 9009, I lose intercom function in this configuration (as I should),
> but the vhf com audio is still weak and scratchy.
> I tried changing the Headsets around in various combinations to
> various seats with no appreciable change.
> I changed out the volume resistors in the AEC9009 to increase the
> volume of those channels, and the volume did go up on the channel in
> question, but the quality really suffered.
> I'm not really sure what to try next. Does anyone have any
> suggestions for what to check?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Y! edpav8r <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
I bought one of these on eBay not too long ago for even less (delivered) than HF's
price. The one I got has a lighted display, C and F temp displays, on/off
selectable laser aiming spot, display hold button and temp range of -50C to 380C.
It even came with a 9V battery. Works beautifully.
Make and model are "SainSonic SS5380".
This [http://bit.ly/10LgGez ] and this [ http://bit.ly/10V8tnP ] have different markings but appear otherwise identical, right down to the brand of battery.
Eric
On Apr 10, 2013, at 5:38 AM, James Kilford wrote:
> Thanks Rick. A handy device and good price too. Not sure it would make sense
getting it across the pond, but I note that similar devices are available for
about the same money. It could be a useful and interesting investment.
>
> James
>
>
> On 3 April 2013 16:35, Richard Girard wrote:
>> James, One of these should give you some numbers to play with to see how well
your heatsink is working as you ebuss is loaded up.
>>
>> http://www.harborfreight.com/infrared-thermometer-with-laser-targeting-non-contact-69465.html
>>
>> Harbor Freight has a coupon out this month that reduces the price a further
$10 to $25.99.
>> Just a thought
>>
>> Rick Girard
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Kilford <james(at)etravel.org> |
Thanks Eric. Appreciate the update.
On 10 April 2013 17:27, Y! edpav8r wrote:
>
> I bought one of these on eBay not too long ago for even less (delivered) than
HF's price. The one I got has a lighted display, C and F temp displays, on/off
selectable laser aiming spot, display hold button and temp range of -50C to
380C. It even came with a 9V battery. Works beautifully.
>
> Make and model are "SainSonic SS5380".
>
> This [http://bit.ly/10LgGez ] and this [ http://bit.ly/10V8tnP ] have different markings but appear otherwise identical, right down to the brand of battery.
>
> Eric
>
>
> On Apr 10, 2013, at 5:38 AM, James Kilford wrote:
>> Thanks Rick. A handy device and good price too. Not sure it would make sense
getting it across the pond, but I note that similar devices are available for
about the same money. It could be a useful and interesting investment.
>>
>> James
>>
>>
>> On 3 April 2013 16:35, Richard Girard wrote:
>>> James, One of these should give you some numbers to play with to see how well
your heatsink is working as you ebuss is loaded up.
>>>
>>> http://www.harborfreight.com/infrared-thermometer-with-laser-targeting-non-contact-69465.html
>>>
>>> Harbor Freight has a coupon out this month that reduces the price a further
$10 to $25.99.
>>> Just a thought
>>>
>>> Rick Girard
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Diagnostic Help Please: Audio is Weak and |
Scratchy
At 10:58 AM 4/10/2013, you wrote:
>
>I think my audio problems are just about resolved. The only problem
>left is when I connect the AEC amp to the intercom inputs, the sound
>is loud and distorted. When I connect those outputs directly to the
>aviation headset jack instead, it sounds great. Flightcom says that
>they are expecting the input to be from something like an mp3
>player. I'm taking the output from the AEC's pins 6 and 6. What do
>I need to put in those lines to bring the AEC's output to something
>similar to an mp3 player? Flightcom suggests "dual 10k audio taper"
>potentiometers when connecting 8 ohm speaker inputs, but I'm not
>sure if the output from the AEC is 8 ohm.
Sounds like the gain of the amplifier is
too high. The 150 ohm resistors shown
on each of the audio input lines are
suggested starting points. You can adjust
these for independent control of audio
level from each source.
The gain needs to be controlled at
the input to the amplifier. Adding a
potentiometer after the amplifier would
reduce the intensity of the signal but
it may well still be distorted if the
amplifier is being over driven.
How does the audio sound if you hook
a headset directly to the isolation
amplifier before it goes into the intercom?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Diagnostic Help Please: Audio is Weak and |
Scratchy
| From: | Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> |
It sounds great when I bypass the intercom.
On Apr 10, 2013, at 14:11, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
wrote:
>
> At 10:58 AM 4/10/2013, you wrote:
>>
>> I think my audio problems are just about resolved. The only problem left is
when I connect the AEC amp to the intercom inputs, the sound is loud and distorted.
When I connect those outputs directly to the aviation headset jack instead,
it sounds great. Flightcom says that they are expecting the input to be from
something like an mp3 player. I'm taking the output from the AEC's pins 6
and 6. What do I need to put in those lines to bring the AEC's output to something
similar to an mp3 player? Flightcom suggests "dual 10k audio taper" potentiometers
when connecting 8 ohm speaker inputs, but I'm not sure if the output
from the AEC is 8 ohm.
>
> Sounds like the gain of the amplifier is
> too high. The 150 ohm resistors shown
> on each of the audio input lines are
> suggested starting points. You can adjust
> these for independent control of audio
> level from each source.
>
> The gain needs to be controlled at
> the input to the amplifier. Adding a
> potentiometer after the amplifier would
> reduce the intensity of the signal but
> it may well still be distorted if the
> amplifier is being over driven.
>
> How does the audio sound if you hook
> a headset directly to the isolation
> amplifier before it goes into the intercom?
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Diagnostic Help Please: Audio is Weak and |
Scratchy
| From: | Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> |
Also, I just found that the amp ics are getting very hot.
On Apr 10, 2013, at 14:11, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
wrote:
>
> At 10:58 AM 4/10/2013, you wrote:
>>
>> I think my audio problems are just about resolved. The only problem left is
when I connect the AEC amp to the intercom inputs, the sound is loud and distorted.
When I connect those outputs directly to the aviation headset jack instead,
it sounds great. Flightcom says that they are expecting the input to be from
something like an mp3 player. I'm taking the output from the AEC's pins 6
and 6. What do I need to put in those lines to bring the AEC's output to something
similar to an mp3 player? Flightcom suggests "dual 10k audio taper" potentiometers
when connecting 8 ohm speaker inputs, but I'm not sure if the output
from the AEC is 8 ohm.
>
> Sounds like the gain of the amplifier is
> too high. The 150 ohm resistors shown
> on each of the audio input lines are
> suggested starting points. You can adjust
> these for independent control of audio
> level from each source.
>
> The gain needs to be controlled at
> the input to the amplifier. Adding a
> potentiometer after the amplifier would
> reduce the intensity of the signal but
> it may well still be distorted if the
> amplifier is being over driven.
>
> How does the audio sound if you hook
> a headset directly to the isolation
> amplifier before it goes into the intercom?
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Diagnostic Help Please: Audio is Weak and |
Scratchy
| From: | Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> |
I think I might have found one problem with some incorrect resistors on the 317.
On Apr 10, 2013, at 14:11, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
wrote:
>
> At 10:58 AM 4/10/2013, you wrote:
>>
>> I think my audio problems are just about resolved. The only problem left is
when I connect the AEC amp to the intercom inputs, the sound is loud and distorted.
When I connect those outputs directly to the aviation headset jack instead,
it sounds great. Flightcom says that they are expecting the input to be from
something like an mp3 player. I'm taking the output from the AEC's pins 6
and 6. What do I need to put in those lines to bring the AEC's output to something
similar to an mp3 player? Flightcom suggests "dual 10k audio taper" potentiometers
when connecting 8 ohm speaker inputs, but I'm not sure if the output
from the AEC is 8 ohm.
>
> Sounds like the gain of the amplifier is
> too high. The 150 ohm resistors shown
> on each of the audio input lines are
> suggested starting points. You can adjust
> these for independent control of audio
> level from each source.
>
> The gain needs to be controlled at
> the input to the amplifier. Adding a
> potentiometer after the amplifier would
> reduce the intensity of the signal but
> it may well still be distorted if the
> amplifier is being over driven.
>
> How does the audio sound if you hook
> a headset directly to the isolation
> amplifier before it goes into the intercom?
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Diagnostic Help Please: Audio is Weak and |
Scratchy
At 02:24 PM 4/10/2013, you wrote:
>
>I think I might have found one problem with some incorrect resistors
>on the 317.
oops . . . that could be a problem. After the
correct resistors are in place, measure the
voltage at pin 6 of the amplifier chips
should be about 9v. Voltage on pin 5 should
be about half that.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Diagnostic Help Please: Audio is Weak and |
Scratchy
| From: | Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> |
Thanks Bob, I'll check that and report back. It turns out the resistors were correct,
but my EE friend thought at first that they weren't.
On Apr 10, 2013, at 17:17, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
wrote:
>
> At 02:24 PM 4/10/2013, you wrote:
>>
>> I think I might have found one problem with some incorrect resistors on the
317.
>
> oops . . . that could be a problem. After the
> correct resistors are in place, measure the
> voltage at pin 6 of the amplifier chips
> should be about 9v. Voltage on pin 5 should
> be about half that.
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Terminals to fit crimper |
Greetings,
I have a Lawson crimper (95102 old
style)<http://www.lawsonproducts.com/lawson/TermCrimp-Frame/95102.lp?_requestid=146002>
with dies (95103)
<http://www.lawsonproducts.com/lawson/TermCrimp-Die-22-10-AWG/95103.lp>.
The dies have the undesirable .116 space between the crushing surfaces.
I have tried PIDG terminals but the stress relief crimp is unacceptable,
per Bob's information.
Is there a terminal available that can be crimped onto 22ga. tezfel
wireproperly.
I'm not going to have alot of wiring on my aircraft, so I'm looking at
options.
Thanks,
--
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Diagnostic Help Please: Audio is Weak |
and Scratchy
At 05:02 PM 4/10/2013, you wrote:
>
>Thanks Bob, I'll check that and report back. It turns out the
>resistors were correct, but my EE friend thought at first that they weren't.
Hmmm . . . the only other thing that
could cause a hot-chip is to have it
soldered in backwards.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Terminals to fit crimper |
At 05:42 PM 4/10/2013, you wrote:
>Greetings,
>
>I have a Lawson crimper (95102 old
>style)<http://www.lawsonproducts.com/lawson/TermCrimp-Frame/95102.lp?_requestid=146002>
>with dies (95103)
><http://www.lawsonproducts.com/lawson/TermCrimp-Die-22-10-AWG/95103.lp>.
>The dies have the undesirable .116 space between the crushing
>surfaces. I have tried PIDG terminals but the stress relief crimp
>is unacceptable, per Bob's information.
>
>Is there a terminal available that can be crimped onto 22 ga. tezfel
>wire properly.
>
>I'm not going to have a lot of wiring on my aircraft, so I'm looking
>at options.
>
>Thanks,
I presume the insulation support is too 'open'.
It might be best to just put 1/2-1" piece of
heatshrink over the 22AWG to build it up.
When the famous Red/Blu_T-head Tool by AMP
was king of the toolbox, nylon over pvc was
the popular airframe wire . . . fortunately,
the insulation grip cam had one more down-size
notch on the cam so it works good for Tefzel.
It won't grab a Kynar wire . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Diagnostic Help Please: Audio is Weak |
and Scratchy
| From: | Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> |
It looks like I have the audio troubleshooting solved. I replaced the amplifier
chips because I had some extras locally and they are cheap. Then I tested the
intercom input by connecting my mp3 player directly to the intercom, bypassing
the 9009 all together. All was well. Next I removed all of the inputs to the
9009 except the music, and plugged it in. All was well. Next I connected the
Dynon voice circuit. It was acceptable, but a little bit loud. I took out the
300 ohm resistor for that channel and tried a 500. The change was small, so I
swapped a few more times, arriving eventually at 1.8k. This really surprised me,
since I misunderstood and thought of 300 to be near the top end of the scale.
Next I reconnected the 430 nav audio to the 9009 and it was way too loud.
I jumped right to the 1k, but it was still very loud. After several steps along
the way, each astonishingly higher, I settled on 68k. Now everything works well
and the chips aren't getting hot. I mention all of this for the benefit of
anyone else who will be using the 9009 with these systems- start much higher
than 150 ohms! This whole process has given me much more understanding of my
audio system, and also a real appreciation for the design of the 9009. Thanks
Bob for making it available! I don't know how other folks are getting by without
it.
On Apr 10, 2013, at 18:21, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
wrote:
>
> At 05:02 PM 4/10/2013, you wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Bob, I'll check that and report back. It turns out the resistors were
correct, but my EE friend thought at first that they weren't.
>
> Hmmm . . . the only other thing that
> could cause a hot-chip is to have it
> soldered in backwards.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Diagnostic Help Please: Audio is Weak |
and Scratchy
Bob's design is the grandaddy of several commercial audio mixers, including
at least one other open-source device.
It's probably a good idea to have variable inputs (see the AMX-2A or AMX-4B
at http://store.makerplane.org/avionics/).
You haven't mentioned any objectional audio noise in the system, but in my
experience the Dynon EFIS is a fairly noisy device. There are a couple of
easy fixes for this, so if you have this problem, let me know.
Thanks, Vern
-----Original Message-----
From: Jared Yates
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Diagnostic Help Please: Audio is Weak
and Scratchy
It looks like I have the audio troubleshooting solved. I replaced the
amplifier chips because I had some extras locally and they are cheap. Then I
tested the intercom input by connecting my mp3 player directly to the
intercom, bypassing the 9009 all together. All was well. Next I removed all
of the inputs to the 9009 except the music, and plugged it in. All was well.
Next I connected the Dynon voice circuit. It was acceptable, but a little
bit loud. I took out the 300 ohm resistor for that channel and tried a 500.
The change was small, so I swapped a few more times, arriving eventually at
1.8k. This really surprised me, since I misunderstood and thought of 300 to
be near the top end of the scale. Next I reconnected the 430 nav audio to
the 9009 and it was way too loud. I jumped right to the 1k, but it was
still very loud. After several steps along the way, each astonishingly
higher, I settled on 68k. Now everything works well and the chips aren't
getting hot. I mention all !
of this for the benefit of anyone else who will be using the 9009 with these
systems- start much higher than 150 ohms! This whole process has given me
much more understanding of my audio system, and also a real appreciation for
the design of the 9009. Thanks Bob for making it available! I don't know
how other folks are getting by without it.
On Apr 10, 2013, at 18:21, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
wrote:
>
>
> At 05:02 PM 4/10/2013, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> Thanks Bob, I'll check that and report back. It turns out the resistors
>> were correct, but my EE friend thought at first that they weren't.
>
> Hmmm . . . the only other thing that
> could cause a hot-chip is to have it
> soldered in backwards.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "wynaire(at)citlink.net" <wynaire(at)citlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LED heatsink material? |
Hernandor, et al... ;)=0ASorry forlate note of appreciated advice. Your rep
lies had been routed to a seldom opened spam box.=0AThanks again,=0AMike W.
=0A=0AFrom: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>=0A>To: "aeroelectri
c-list(at)matronics.com" =0A>Sent: Wednesday
, April 3, 2013 3:48 PM=0A>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LED heatsink mat
erial?=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Hello Mike W.,=0A>=0A>=0A>The short answer is copper.
- This is evidenced by each material's thermal conductivity, shown below
in SI units:=0A>=0A>=0A>---- Copper - 401 Watt/(meter x Kelvin)=0A>
---- Aluminum - 237 Watt/(meter x Kelvin)=0A>---- Stainless
steel - 16.7 Watt/(meter x Kelvin)=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>The above data came from
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_thermal_conductivities=0A>=0A>=0A>Th
ermal conductivity is the property of a material to conduct heat. As you ca
n see, copper conducts heat 1.7 times better than aluminum and 24 times bet
ter than a certain type of stainless steel. There are other things to consi
der but since your mounting plate is your reflector and you are stuck with
its dimensions, form factor and coating.- If you are looking for the best
conductor, copper is the choice.- This also assumes that you are not con
cerned with weight or corrosion.=0A>=0A>=0A>Henador Titzoff=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>
=0A>From: "wynaire(at)citlink.net" <wynaire(at)citlink.net>=0A>To: "aeroelectric-
list(at)matronics.com" =0A>Sent: Wednesday,
April 3, 2013 4:43 PM=0A>Subject: AeroElectric-List: LED heatsink material?
=0A>=0A>=0A>Hello All,=0A>Your thoughts or lessons from experience: =0A>I a
m mounting two (2) each 10Watt LED's (R/G color and -white [6500k] in eac
h wing tip, under a clear tip lens. The mounting plate (polished for reflec
tivity) can be copper or SS or aluminum. Which material is the best choice
for conducting the LED heat away from the LED's?=0A>Thanks in advance for y
our suggestions. Any other bits of related info are also appreciated.=0A>Mi
ke W.=0A>LNC2 360 @ 88% finished... with 88% to go ;)=0A>=0A>=0A>From: Jame
s Kilford =0A>>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0A>>
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 6:31 AM=0A>>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List:
Ebus Diode=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>On a related note, is there a way to determine if
a heatsink is large enough? - =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>I made a heatsink out of som
e scrap .020" aluminium -- half a dozen pieces of varying lengths, stacked
and folded up at the ends to form fins. -I've bolted it under the rectifi
er with some heatsink paste. -=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Seems like quite a lot of al
uminium, and plenty of surface area, but it would nice to find a way of eva
luating its effectiveness... other than waiting for the smell of burning se
miconductor...=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Many thanks,-=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>James=0A>>=0A>>
=0A>>=0A>>On 2 April 2013 16:38, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aero
electric.com> wrote:=0A>>=0A>>At 09:56 AM 4/2/2013, you wrote:=0A>>>=0A>>>T
he drawing http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/Diode_Installation.pdf=0A>>>>From B an
d C shows both ~ (I don't have the correct symbol horizontal s with -) term
inals powered from the main bus with the + going to the Ebus and - unused.
=0A>>>>=0A>>>>Question: I could run power from the main bus to either ~ ter
minal and power the Ebus?=0A>>>>=0A>>>>Powering both ~ terminals gains a li
ttle redundancy to power the Ebus?=0A>>>- No 'redundancy' just a potentia
l tiny improvement in=0A>>>- thermal modeling. Not a big deal one way or
another.=0A>>>- Run main bus power to either one or both AC input=0A>>>
- terminals, one wire from (+) to e-bus.=0A>>>=0A>>>- Bob . . .=0A>>>
=0A>>>=0A>>>- Bob . . . =0A>>>ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Listtp://forums.matronics.com_blank">http
========= =0A>=0A>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Terminals to fit crimper |
At 01:01 PM 4/11/2013, you wrote:
>I'm just getting ready to order an assortment of terminals. I was
>hoping to avoid having to fiddle with every wire. Thanks for the suggestion.
Sorry I couldn't be more specific. There's
always a need to do an integration study for
tool->terminal->wire.
It's not uncommon that a particular trio
of elements fail to 'come together'.
I recall being approached by a company who
claimed to offer PIDG equivalent terminals
at about 1/2 the price . . . brought in some
samples and tried them in my legacy tools.
http://tinyurl.com/bwdqu4r
. . . close but no cigar.
But good on you that you checked the fits
before you crimped a bunch of terminals
on the wires!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Diagnostic Help Please: Audio is Weak |
and Scratchy
At 10:03 PM 4/11/2013, you wrote:
It looks like I have the audio troubleshooting solved.
Now everything works well and the chips aren't getting hot. I mention
all of this for the benefit of anyone else who will be using the 9009
with these systems- start much higher than 150 ohms! This whole
process has given me much more understanding of my audio system, and
also a real appreciation for the design of the 9009. Thanks Bob for
making it available! I don't know how other folks are getting by without it.
Good to hear. I considered putting potentiometers on
the board during the development process but discarded
the idea in favor of the fixed resistors on a socket.
As you've discovered, it takes a bit of fiddling to get
them right but it's a once-in-an-installation process
that would not benefit much from future adjustability.
Thanks for the feedback.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Butt Splice for #4 wire |
At 07:49 AM 4/9/2013, you wrote:
>The #4 looked fine as I removed the nut, but as soon as a pulled it
>off the lug, the terminal was only hanging on by a couple of thin
>wires and a small >piece of the heatshrink. The only thing that had
>been keeping it together was the heatshrink and the natural
>propensity of the wire to stay in place.
>My only explanation is that the 7", or so, of cable between the terminal
>end and the first adel clamp, had enough weight and motion to respond
>to vibrations, and eventually fatigue the cable.
John sent me the carcass and we've had a chance to
peek inside the failure . . .
Emacs!
95% of the strands failed right outside the crimp . . . a
telltale for insufficient insulation support like that offered by
PIDG style terminals.
A cross-section of the wire grip . . .
Emacs!
. . . showed good crush . . . no voids. I'm pretty sure that
a piece of that extra stiff, two-walled heat-shrink over this assembly
would have produced a better story.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | microair transponder/encoder hookup question |
Has anyone successfully installed a Microair T2000SFL-01rev8 transponder
combined with their EC2002-01rev3 encoder, using serial connection?
The manual for the xp rev8 at
> http://www.microair.com.au/admin/uploads/documents/T2000SFLInstallationManual01R80.pdf
shows *2* data lines between the components: encoder pin6data receive to
xp pin 5data transmit, and encoder pin 7data transmit to xp pin 4data
receive. *But*... note 7 on the hookup page (pg 13) says that the
diagram is applicable to revs 5,6, & 7.
I can't find an install manual for the 01rev3 encoder on their web site,
but the manual for the 01rev12 shows pin 6 of the encoder (labeled
rs232in) as unconnected.
However....
Looking at the page on their pre-wired harnesses at
http://www.microair.com.au/index.aspx?page=186&productID=36
The diagram for wiring their xp to their encoder shows encoder pin 6
(data receive) to be *grounded*.
So, various docs on the Microair website show the encoder pin 6 to be:
open, tied to transponder pin 5, and grounded (through the harness) to
the case of the transponder.
Anyone have any words of wisdom on the *right* way to do it?
Thanks,
Charlie
<http://www.microair.com.au/index.aspx?page=186&productID=26>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Li-Ion Battery Failure Analysis |
I ran across this document by the Exponent Failure Analysis Associates
that speaks to one of many studies being conducted on Li-Ion
battery failures.
http://tinyurl.com/cbxqa6e
The words 'shorts' + 'shorting' appear 44 times with
particular interest in micro-shorts that arise from
failures and/or manufacturing defects in separators.
Seems there are no process or inspection controls
that will keep these defects from finding their way
into finished cells . . . but there's a possibility
that cells can be screened for such defects before
being assembled into finished goods.
It's pretty heavy reading . . . I'm going to keep it
on the laptop for the next time I have to sit on an
airplane for several hours.
BTW . . . there's a rumor running around that the Cessna
ramp fire in the Citation battery was precipitated by
connection of the wrong ground power cart . . . I'm
still looking for credible confirmation/explanation
of the assertion.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: microair transponder/encoder hookup question |
Looking at the page on their pre-wired harnesses at
http://www.microair.com.au/index.aspx?page=186&productID=36
The diagram for wiring their xp to their encoder shows encoder pin 6
(data receive) to be *grounded*.
So, various docs on the Microair website show the encoder pin 6 to
be: open, tied to transponder pin 5, and grounded (through the
harness) to the case of the transponder.
Anyone have any words of wisdom on the *right* way to do it?
Is this the drawing that has you confused?
Emacs!
It appears that pin 6 and 15 on the encoder are both ground
pins that are tied to harness shield. I doubt that it matters
a great deal whether one or both pins are tied to the shield.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: microair transponder/encoder hookup question |
On 04/21/2013 07:17 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> Looking at the page on their pre-wired harnesses at
> http://www.microair.com.au/index.aspx?page=186&productID=36
>
> <http://www.microair.com.au/index.aspx?page=186&productID=36>The
> diagram for wiring their xp to their encoder shows encoder pin 6 (data
> receive) to be *grounded*.
>
> So, various docs on the Microair website show the encoder pin 6 to be:
> open, tied to transponder pin 5, and grounded (through the harness) to
> the case of the transponder.
>
> Anyone have any words of wisdom on the *right* way to do it?
>
>
> *Is this the drawing that has you confused?
>
> Emacs!
>
> It appears that pin 6 and 15 on the encoder are both ground
> pins that are tied to harness shield. I doubt that it matters
> a great deal whether one or both pins are tied to the shield.
>
> *
>
> Bob . . .
>
It would appear that way from the drawing, but pin 6 is, in fact, *not*
tied to ground in the encoder; it is floating with respect to ground.
And in the xp manual, it mentions that the xp can tell the encoder what
data format to use in serial mode, implying a need for a comm line to
move data from the xp to the encoder. When wired as shown above, the xp
reports 'no altitude' in its display (it will show encoder altitude)
even when the comm format DIP switches are set properly in the encoder.
Note that there's no drawn connection between encoder pin 7 & xp pin 5,
both of which are labeled 'serial alt data TX'. On similar drawings in
other docs, they show what's apparently connections between encPin7
TX-xpPin4RX and encPin6RX-xpPin5TX (but again, no actual connection in
the drawings; just the order of the pins in the drawings. Note the
different pin in the xp tied to the encoder's pin7TX. The image below
was clipped from the transponder install manual. (Sorry for the blurry
image; I'm using Linux & Adobe Reader seems to be a bit buggy in Linux.)
Charlie
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March 26, 2013 - April 21, 2013
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-lr