AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-ls

April 21, 2013 - May 15, 2013



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________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 21, 2013
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: microair transponder/encoder hookup question
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: E-Bus alternative feed turned on during normal operations...
From: "idleup" <matt(at)mattandmel.com>
Date: Apr 21, 2013
What happens if your E-Bus feed switch is turned on during normal operations? In this scenario it looks like power would be coming in from two directions according to Z-13/8... If that is not a problem, then why have an E-bus alt switch at all? - Matt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399065#399065 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Wire sizes to E-Bus?
From: "idleup" <matt(at)mattandmel.com>
Date: Apr 21, 2013
I am working with Bob's Z-13/8 and I am confused about the wire size between the main -> e-bus. In the drawing he has it as 20AWG. This seems way to small to me to power the e-bus. In my scenario, my load diagram shows the e-bus loads can reach 25A. Am I correct in thinking this wire should be 12AWG instead? Also, the wire from my Batt. bus to the E-Bus is 14AWG on my schematic, should that also be 12AWG? Thanks for the clarification... - Matt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399066#399066 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: E-Bus alternative feed turned on during normal
operations...
From: Daniel Hooper <enginerdy(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 21, 2013
If you look at the source, the EBUS 15A circuit is fed from the hot side of the battery contactor. If there was not an E-bus alternate feed switch, there would be no way to turn off the items connected to the endurance bus, without disconnecting the battery. The way it is, you can use the battery contactor to switch ALL of your loads in normal operations, then in alternator failure conditions, you can switch the e-bus switch to ON and the battery contactor to OFF, reducing your loads to just the items powered directly from the main battery bus (including the switched-on endurance bus). For the other part of the question, if you switch the e-bus on during normal operations, the energy to the e-bus will flow through the contactor instead of the diode, because the voltage drop in the diode will keep current from flowing through it (because there is an easier path). That is my understanding. Please someone speak up if I've got it wrong. Daniel On Apr 21, 2013, at 4:37 PM, idleup wrote: > > What happens if your E-Bus feed switch is turned on during normal operations? In this scenario it looks like power would be coming in from two directions according to Z-13/8... If that is not a problem, then why have an E-bus alt switch at all? > > - Matt > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399065#399065 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: E-Bus alternative feed turned on during normal
operations...
From: "idleup" <matt(at)mattandmel.com>
Date: Apr 21, 2013
Okay, I understand about the necessity for the switch otherwise you could never shut off power to the e-bus. But I am still confused about if there would be a problem if it were inadvertently switched on during normal operations. You mentioned that it would flow from the contactor instead of the diode, do you mean the battery bus side of the contactor? I guess what I am really concerned with is would their be any problem if it were switched on during flight inadvertently? I am thinking no, but just want confirmation of that... - Matt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399069#399069 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: E-Bus alternative feed turned on during normal
operations...
From: Daniel Hooper <enginerdy(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 21, 2013
I think you would only notice the difference if you have a voltmeter on the e-bus. In normal operation, you would see about 13.5V, but with the e-bus contactor turned on, it would rise to 14V or so. (depending on the voltage of your system). This is because in normal operation, the e-bus diode will take out about half a volt from the battery's bus voltage. When you short the e-bus back to the battery, the 0.5V drop will go away. Current is no longer flowing through the e-bus diode -- it is coming straight from the battery now. When you turn the e-bus switch off, current will go back to coming through the diode like nothing happened. On Apr 21, 2013, at 5:19 PM, idleup wrote: > > Okay, I understand about the necessity for the switch otherwise you could never shut off power to the e-bus. > > But I am still confused about if there would be a problem if it were inadvertently switched on during normal operations. You mentioned that it would flow from the contactor instead of the diode, do you mean the battery bus side of the contactor? > > I guess what I am really concerned with is would their be any problem if it were switched on during flight inadvertently? I am thinking no, but just want confirmation of that... > > - Matt > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399069#399069 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 21, 2013
From: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: E-Bus alternative feed turned on during normal
operations... I leave my e-buss switch on most all the time. It doesn't hurt anything and, if the alternator fails and I turn off the contactor switch, I can't inadvertently re-boot the avionics by operating the switches in the wrong order. I read my voltage off the e-buss and with the switch off, I need to do math to know what the alternator is doing so it is convenient to leave it on for that reason. I do check the diode feed path often by turning it off and seeing the voltage drop. Ed Holyoke On 4/21/2013 3:19 PM, idleup wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "idleup" > > Okay, I understand about the necessity for the switch otherwise you could never shut off power to the e-bus. > > But I am still confused about if there would be a problem if it were inadvertently switched on during normal operations. You mentioned that it would flow from the contactor instead of the diode, do you mean the battery bus side of the contactor? > > I guess what I am really concerned with is would their be any problem if it were switched on during flight inadvertently? I am thinking no, but just want confirmation of that... > > - Matt > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399069#399069 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2013
From: Jeff Page <jpx(at)qenesis.com>
Subject: 28V to 15.6V @ 5A
A friend of mine has a requirement to power a laptop requiring 15.6V at 5A from an aircraft with a 28V system. This unit is almost what is needed, but the spec is only 4A. http://www.lonestaraviation.com/Step-Down-Converter-24v-to-16v.html Is anyone aware of a similar product with a little more power capability ? Thanks, Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Which crimper for Big AWG's on both HB *and* Certified?
From: "Builder_Bill" <jonesw(at)mindspring.com>
Date: Apr 24, 2013
I want to make a decision on sourcing a crimper & terminal set that I can use for Big AWG's on both E-AB and certified alike (one tool to rule them all). This question has been eating me for a while. The sound judgement falls to me on HB/OBAM, but I've asked around a bit and nobody I've asked can tell me what crimper or process is kosher to repair on certified. I didn't ask an OEM or a FSDO and wasn't going to. The next time I see a B-lead terminal that looks like it's about to fatigue off and ground big current or a batt cable chaffing. I would like to not AOG, but instead fab up a quality replacement from stock. I've seen Bob's nail & solder / gas-tight technique. Nice. Only recently have I herd Bob state "there is no such thing as a certified part". With that in mind I'm starting to think that there is no "certified" tool / precedence for this repair outside of an OEM or 145. So, If I do this am I making a "minor repair" or am I making an "unapproved part" w/o a PMA? Logic tells me the former. I just want to use the closest thing to "acceptable methods". BTW, the only reference I can find in AC43.13-1B CHG 1 is 11-98i "use appropriate crimping tools". All this aside, what do you listers, and Bob, think of the BANTAM ROTA-CRIMP a.k.a AMP Model 601075-1 and Solistrand branded crimps combo + double heat shrink? How about Avery Tools Item #461? Bill Jones First Post Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399303#399303 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Which crimper for Big AWG's on both HB *and* Certified?
From: "stearman456" <warbirds(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Apr 24, 2013
Here be what you seek: http://www.theterminaltool.com/Home_Page.html If there's anything better I'd like to see it. Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399307#399307 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2013
Subject: Re: Which crimper for Big AWG's on both HB *and* Certified?
From: Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com>
Harbor Freight has a hydraulic crimper that I am using and have been extremely pleased with. It makes picture perfect crimps. The dies are marked incorrectly as to wire gauge and the largest die set will crimp a 2 AWG terminal even though it's stamped 00. See at: http://www.harborfreight.com/hydraulic-wire-crimping-tool-66150.html Chris Stone On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Builder_Bill wrote: > jonesw(at)mindspring.com> > > I want to make a decision on sourcing a crimper & terminal set that I can > use for Big AWG's on both E-AB and certified alike (one tool to rule them > all). > > This question has been eating me for a while. The sound judgement falls to > me on HB/OBAM, but I've asked around a bit and nobody I've asked can tell > me what crimper or process is kosher to repair on certified. I didn't ask > an OEM or a FSDO and wasn't going to. > > The next time I see a B-lead terminal that looks like it's about to > fatigue off and ground big current or a batt cable chaffing. I would like > to not AOG, but instead fab up a quality replacement from stock. > > I've seen Bob's nail & solder / gas-tight technique. Nice. > Only recently have I herd Bob state "there is no such thing as a certified > part". With that in mind I'm starting to think that there is no "certified" > tool / precedence for this repair outside of an OEM or 145. So, If I do > this am I making a "minor repair" or am I making an "unapproved part" w/o a > PMA? Logic tells me the former. I just want to use the closest thing to > "acceptable methods". BTW, the only reference I can find in AC43.13-1B CHG > 1 is 11-98i "use appropriate crimping tools". > > All this aside, what do you listers, and Bob, think of the > BANTAM ROTA-CRIMP a.k.a AMP Model 601075-1 and Solistrand branded crimps > combo + double heat shrink? How about Avery Tools Item #461? > > > Bill Jones > First Post > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Which crimper for Big AWG's on both HB *and* Certified?
From: "Builder_Bill" <jonesw(at)mindspring.com>
Date: Apr 24, 2013
Yeah, I've seen that TT-500 (or maybe the previous version of it) at SteinAir maybe. As for HF, leave it the them to produce a hydraulic crimper south of $1000, way south [Shocked] . LOL. Am I wrong to expect that an airworthy crimp tool should have a strict association with a line of terminals [Rolling Eyes] . As with Amp/Tyco Crimpers & AMP PIDG terminals. Neither of these two tools (TT-500 & HF) advertise a matched brand of terminals, or do they? Or an I'm brain washed by the Mil Specs and Standards Groups? :? Between the two, I lean toward the TT-500, but with a local HF just 1 mile from me, now I have to go see what $60 in HF $ looks/feels like. Maybe others can weigh in. Bill Jones Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399315#399315 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John Ciolino" <JohnCiolino(at)carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Which crimper for Big AWG's on both HB *and*
Certified?
Date: Apr 24, 2013
I would agree but it seems to "Out of stock" permanently. John Ciolino RV-8 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of stearman456 Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 6:58 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Which crimper for Big AWG's on both HB *and* Certified? --> Here be what you seek: http://www.theterminaltool.com/Home_Page.html If there's anything better I'd like to see it. Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399307#399307 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Which crimper for Big AWG's on both HB *and* Certified?
From: "Builder_Bill" <jonesw(at)mindspring.com>
Date: Apr 24, 2013
Wow, that TT5000 is looking better all the time. The designer really put his pride in this puppy. That web site must be redone since I last saw it. The pics look very convincing. Bill Jones Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399318#399318 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Which crimper for Big AWG's on both HB *and*
Certified?
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: Apr 24, 2013
Bill, OK, I'll weight in. That HF crimper works quite well. No special associated terminal is needed. Just make sure the terminal properly fits the wire size. And ignore the sizes marked on the tool, they lie. Just pick a set of jaws that fit the wire and lug in use. FWIW, I used Perihelion CCA lightweight Fat Wire and the associated Perihelion connection lugs. Works great, less weight. Periheliondesign.com or periheliondesign.com/fatwires.htm Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On Apr 24, 2013, at 8:11 PM, Builder_Bill wrote: Yeah, I've seen that TT-500 (or maybe the previous version of it) at SteinAir maybe. As for HF, leave it the them to produce a hydraulic crimper south of $1000, way south [Shocked] . LOL. Am I wrong to expect that an airworthy crimp tool should have a strict association with a line of terminals [Rolling Eyes] . As with Amp/Tyco Crimpers & AMP PIDG terminals. Neither of these two tools (TT-500 & HF) advertise a matched brand of terminals, or do they? Or an I'm brain washed by the Mil Specs and Standards Groups? :? Between the two, I lean toward the TT-500, but with a local HF just 1 mile from me, now I have to go see what $60 in HF $ looks/feels like. Maybe others can weigh in. Bill Jones ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Which crimper for Big AWG's on both HB *and* Certified?
From: "Builder_Bill" <jonesw(at)mindspring.com>
Date: Apr 24, 2013
Dam it, now I remember this dude. Stein had this back ordered last year and said this guy is having a hard time keeping with US foundries on small runs and is determined to not export the work or let the quality suffer. Assuming that's the story I can't say I don't sympathize. I would like to find out if they will be available again. Bill Jones Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399320#399320 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com>
Subject: 28V to 15.6V @ 5A
Date: Apr 25, 2013
I would venture that the 4A product would do the trick; laptops do not draw that much current- my laptop power supply is rated at 19V 3.16A. Johannesburg Jay -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Page Sent: 24 April 2013 10:37 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: 28V to 15.6V @ 5A A friend of mine has a requirement to power a laptop requiring 15.6V at 5A from an aircraft with a 28V system. This unit is almost what is needed, but the spec is only 4A. http://www.lonestaraviation.com/Step-Down-Converter-24v-to-16v.html Is anyone aware of a similar product with a little more power capability ? Thanks, Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 25, 2013
From: Harley <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Subject: Re: Which crimper for Big AWG's on both HB *and*
Certified? I used the HF crimper as well...had no problems, and as Bob said, just pick the dies that fit the wire and terminal you are working with, ignoring the numbers on them. If the crimp doesn't look good enough, just go to the next smaller size. Harley Dixon Long EZ N28EZ Canandaigua, NY ----------------------------------------------------------------- On 4/24/2013 9:29 PM, Robert Borger wrote: > > Bill, > > OK, I'll weight in. > > That HF crimper works quite well. No special associated terminal is needed. Just make sure the terminal properly fits the wire size. And ignore the sizes marked on the tool, they lie. Just pick a set of jaws that fit the wire and lug in use. > > FWIW, I used Perihelion CCA lightweight Fat Wire and the associated Perihelion connection lugs. Works great, less weight. > > Periheliondesign.com or periheliondesign.com/fatwires.htm > > Blue skies & tailwinds, > Bob Borger > Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. > Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP > 3705 Lynchburg Dr. > Corinth, TX 76208-5331 > Cel: 817-992-1117 > rlborger(at)mac.com > > On Apr 24, 2013, at 8:11 PM, Builder_Bill wrote: > > > Yeah, I've seen that TT-500 (or maybe the previous version of it) at SteinAir maybe. > > As for HF, leave it the them to produce a hydraulic crimper south of $1000, way south [Shocked] . LOL. > > Am I wrong to expect that an airworthy crimp tool should have a strict association with a line of terminals [Rolling Eyes] . As with Amp/Tyco Crimpers & AMP PIDG terminals. > > Neither of these two tools (TT-500 & HF) advertise a matched brand of terminals, or do they? > Or an I'm brain washed by the Mil Specs and Standards Groups? :? > > Between the two, I lean toward the TT-500, but with a local HF just 1 mile from me, now I have to go see what $60 in HF $ looks/feels like. > > > Maybe others can weigh in. > > Bill Jones > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 25, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 28V to 15.6V @ 5A
At 03:36 PM 4/24/2013, you wrote: > >A friend of mine has a requirement to power a laptop requiring 15.6V >at 5A from an aircraft with a 28V system. > >This unit is almost what is needed, but the spec is only 4A. >http://www.lonestaraviation.com/Step-Down-Converter-24v-to-16v.html > >Is anyone aware of a similar product with a little more power capability ? These show some promise. You might find that they need to be packaged in a larger enclosure to accommodate some RFI filtering. http://tinyurl.com/a9bhfqn http://tinyurl.com/axlv3ex http://tinyurl.com/bbylscr http://tinyurl.com/a5ncthf http://tinyurl.com/apxepbq Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 25, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Wire sizes to E-Bus?
At 04:38 PM 4/21/2013, you wrote: > >I am working with Bob's Z-13/8 and I am confused about the wire size >between the main -> e-bus. In the drawing he has it as 20AWG. This >seems way to small to me to power the e-bus. > >In my scenario, my load diagram shows the e-bus loads can reach 25A. >Am I correct in thinking this wire should be 12AWG instead? > >Also, the wire from my Batt. bus to the E-Bus is 14AWG on my >schematic, should that also be 12AWG? > >Thanks for the clarification... > >- Matt\ The Z-figures are ARCHITECTURE drawings, not wiring diagrams for any specific task. A load analysis using your specific constellation of accessories will set system loads and wire sizes which may indeed be different than 'suggestions' on the architecture drawings. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 28V to 15.6V @ 5A
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Apr 25, 2013
I always recommend Astrodyne power supplies for these in experimental aircraft. Their similar supplies are $75. There are bunches of laptop supplies from 12V (cigar lighter type) but not many from 28V. I have made a couple of these in linear form (no RFI noise), completely adjustable, 10-37V input. See attached. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399350#399350 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/5a_avr_168.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 25, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: LED strip lighting for panels
At 03:18 PM 4/23/2013, you wrote: >Hi Bob: > >After talking with you on the phone and >receiving this e-mail from you, I ordered the >LED strip and a couple of dimmer switches from B >& C. Then I saw something in your e-mail that >didn=99t quite look right and that was the delta >voltage you mentioned between the 7.5v and the >12 volt is 3.5 volts. Actually it=99s 4.5 >volts. Now, I=99m not very smart when it comes >to electronics but, based on your calculations >in your e-mail that changes the value of the >resistors needed to remodel the dimmer. You >mentioned several resistors of standard value to >use based on your calculations, should I still >use them? Or, do I need to change to something >different? Appreciate your help! Good catch my friend! Yes. You'll have to adjust the resistors to achieve the desired response from the potentiometer. The first electronic dimmer I was asked to replace for a customer was a classic potentiometer voltage divider driving an emitter follower transistor on a big heatsink. Playing with the thing on the bench showed that the bottom 40% or so of pot travel didn't do anything. Voltage to the lamps in this area was too low to produce visible light. I think I might have been the first supplier to consider adding resistance in the bottom of the voltage divider to set MAX CCW voltage a just below visible light output from the lamps . . . about 4-5 volts as I recall. This also kept the lamps 'warm' while 'off' so that the filaments are more immune to vibration and inrush fatigue. Your task is a bit different in that multiple LED junctions in series raises the MAX CCW voltage for minimal light output considerably. Suggest you fiddle with your setup on the bench and arrive at component values appropriate to your own design goals. I just received a couple spools of strip lights yesterday. I'm going to use a mulit-colored, programmable strip to add attention grabbing lights to outside of my son's shaved ice concession trailer . . . and a couple more spools to augment interior lighting. This is pretty handy stuff. Take the calculations I did and plug in correct numbers. Let the List know what values meet your design goals. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 25, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Mic jack problem
At 05:01 PM 4/24/2013, you wrote: >Mr Nuckolls- > >If you please I'm having the devil of a time >trying to get my mic to work. I'm putting in an >intercom (PS Engineering PM 1200) in a T-6=85 it >has an audio panel. For some odd reason I >elected to use the current jacks for the >intercom and put together a new set for AUX and >connecting the intercom with the audio panel/airplane. Not sure I have the correct mental image based on your words. The AUX mic depicted in the PS1200 manual Emacs! . . . is intended to offer access to your ship's transmitter by the microphone even if the intercom system is broke. This jack bypasses the intercom and lets your mic talk to the transmitter directly. You'll have to give me a complete wiring diagram of what you've installed before I'll be able to herd the electrons. >My problem is that I can't get the mic to work >through the AUX jacks. The Headphone audio works >fine, the PTT circuit works, you can hear the >carrier and someone on an external radio reports >a strong carrier being transmitted=85. but the mic >does not open, nothing gets transmitted other >than the carrier. I've tried just about >everything, even to the point of reversing the >wires thinking I screwed up the Tip/Ring/Ground >tracking. I just cannot get the mic to work=85.. >do you have any suggestions for me? If you already have an audio panel, did it include microphone wiring and feature a transmitter select switch too? What kind of audio panel? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 25, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 28V to 15.6V @ 5A
At 12:56 AM 4/25/2013, you wrote: > >I would venture that the 4A product would do the trick; laptops do >not draw that much current- my laptop power supply is rated at 19V 3.16A. > >Johannesburg Jay The wattage requirements tend to be constant. If his battery is nominally lower in voltage than the common 19 volt devices, then the current requirements might reasonably be expected to go up proportionally. But even the rated current values are 'max' numbers that probably assume that the user is charging a depleted battery while attempting to use the computer. I have a 14v to 19v boost regulator for use in our cars. I've measured some sustained 4+ amp draws during worst case demands . . . but normal computer usage with a fully charged battery is much less . . . more like 2.2 amps. Larger step-down devices are readily available but may need some attention to noise issues for use on the airplane . . . Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 28V to 15.6V @ 5A At 03:36 PM 4/24/2013, you wrote: > >A friend of mine has a requirement to power a laptop requiring 15.6V >at 5A from an aircraft with a 28V system. > >This unit is almost what is needed, but the spec is only 4A. >http://www.lonestaraviation.com/Step-Down-Converter-24v-to-16v.html > >Is anyone aware of a similar product with a little more power capability ? These show some promise. You might find that they need to be packaged in a larger enclosure to accommodate some RFI filtering. http://tinyurl.com/a9bhfqn http://tinyurl.com/axlv3ex http://tinyurl.com/bbylscr http://tinyurl.com/a5ncthf http://tinyurl.com/apxepbq Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 25, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Shorai Battery Review
At 08:57 PM 4/22/2013, you wrote: >Bob, Haven't been on the list for a while and have forgotten how to post. Just send a message to aeroelectric-list(at)matroics.com This will start a new thread of discussion with what ever topic you put on the subject line . . . > I have read all the posts on the Shorai batteries and was > wondering if you have additional opinions as to whether they would > be suitable in OBAM aircraft since Boeing has "solved" the Lithium > Ion problems on the 787s. Actually, Boeing has not solved the Li-Ion battery problem, they've only contained it. The batteries are to be enclosed in a titanium box with vents appropriate to expel the products of combustion assuming that one or more cells goes into catastrophic self destruction. I spent a good part of yesterday with Skip Koss and crew who were representing Concord at a convention in Wichita. Seems that the major players have given up trying to quantify reliability numbers for the cells and have elected to apply a lot of electronic monitoring and control for managing charge and discharge profiles of individual cells while closely monitoring temperatures. It's a case of adding very complex electronic housekeeping to robust containment for what started out to be a simple one-for-one replacement of legacy Ni-Cad/Lead-Acid with Li-Ion. Pundits in the know are now predicting that a positive return on investment for Boeing's shift to Li-Ion is decades out . . . if ever. The Shorai offering is a study in contradictions. On one hand, the batteries are offered as drop in replacement for legacy battery products wherein responsibility for managing the charge and discharge profiles are NOT tailored to the product. At the same time, each battery is fitted with a 5 pin maintenance port to accommodate a specialty charger. Literature for the battery says: **Note:The Shorai LFX battery may not be used with a lead-acid battery charger with an automatic desulfation mode that cannot be disabled. We recommend the <http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/1/4/60/45381/ITEM/Shorai-LFX-Battery-Charger.aspx>Shorai LFX Battery Charger to properly charge and perform cell diagnostics on this high performance battery, or the <http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/1/4/60/49850/ITEM/MotoStance-MS1000-Battery-Charger.aspx>MotoStance MS1000 Battery Charger. This is the first time I've seen any mention of "desulfation" features being undesirable in the context of Li-Ion discussions. I've not read any convincing discussion on the effectiveness of special desulfation processes added to chargers or maintainers. Desulfation technologies are a mixed bag . . . and I'm not sure they're even applicable to anything other than abusive, deep-discharge service. The well cared for aircraft battery NEVER gets deep discharged. It coughs up 2% of contained energy to start an engine . . . hundreds of times . . . but is immediately serviced by a working alternator. Conditions favorable to lead-sulfate crystal growth are weak. In one breath, the Li-Ion guys talk about their specialized chargers designed to get the most from their product . . . in the next breath, they say the product is a drop-in replacement for an SVLA battery that receives less than specialized charging from an alternator-regulator that might not even be adjustable! The Shorai LFX charger offers the ultimate pampering of the battery while a MotoStance MS1000 is just an SVLA charger/maintainer . . . I'm westling with the logic that says they can have it both ways. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 25, 2013
From: Jeff Page <jpx(at)qenesis.com>
Subject: 28V to 15.6V @ 5A
Jay, I agree that most of the time the laptop would draw less than four amps. However, if the laptop battery is quite low, it will draw more power trying to charge it and might reach the current draw specified on the bottom of the laptop. If there are no alternatives, I will try to get one of their laptops and measure it. However, if there is a similar product available with a little more output, that would be the best thing to do. Jeff > From: "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com> > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 28V to 15.6V @ 5A > > > I would venture that the 4A product would do the trick; laptops do > not draw that > much current- my laptop power supply is rated at 19V 3.16A. > > Johannesburg Jay ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com>
Subject: 28V to 15.6V @ 5A
Date: Apr 25, 2013
Hey there Jeff, I agree; my opinion was ventured on the basis that the other product might be difficult to find and/or get your hands on- probably more of an issue here in SA than in the USA. In that case the current draw might be high for a while, if the battery was flat, but lower later. Then one might be able to work within those limits- for example, make sure that your battery is properly charged before flight and the power supply then only supplies top up power. I also agree with Bob regarding the higher current draw for lower voltage given the same power (W) requirement - basic electrical theory. Looking at my laptop power supply and using transformer theory as a rough calculation estimate my laptop would draw 3.9A at 15.5V. Not ideal, but if the product you sourced was all that you had to hand, odds are it would be fine. Throw in some usage parameters (take a charged laptop on board) and you'd most likely never have a problem. But of course, in the land of the big PX ;-) you can just get the right bit... We can get them here too, but its a pain in the butt, you will probably have to wait longer and it'll cost more. Nice almost relevant story: My mate was commissioning plant in Tanzania and needed some resistors which would have been difficult and time consuming to order from there- and then you'd have to wait for delivery (just 10 were required). There is a large bit of plant waiting and your client is hounding you- and your company will be hit with penalties for lateness. Solution- go and buy a couple of cheap battery powered radios that abound in the small general dealers and source your resisters off their boards.... Johannesburg Jay -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Page Sent: 25 April 2013 05:26 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 28V to 15.6V @ 5A Jay, I agree that most of the time the laptop would draw less than four amps. However, if the laptop battery is quite low, it will draw more power trying to charge it and might reach the current draw specified on the bottom of the laptop. If there are no alternatives, I will try to get one of their laptops and measure it. However, if there is a similar product available with a little more output, that would be the best thing to do. Jeff > From: "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com> > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 28V to 15.6V @ 5A > > > I would venture that the 4A product would do the trick; laptops do not > draw that much current- my laptop power supply is rated at 19V 3.16A. > > Johannesburg Jay ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Radio interference
From: "robintaylor" <robintaylor(at)airteccc.co.uk>
Date: Apr 25, 2013
I am getting radio interference which seems to be from the alternator. I am flight testing my homebuilt RV9A. It has a new Lycoming O320 engine which has a Plane Power AL12 alternator. The interference is a pulse or beep at an interval of about two per second. Its interval changes with the engine speed and it ceases when the alternator is disabled. Please can you suggest the cause and a solution. RobinT :( Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399371#399371 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 25, 2013
From: Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Subject: Master / Starter Relay
Does anyone have any thoughts on the suitability of these devices from Tyco for our applications, although may be a little expensive (70 = $110, both + tax)? How are they supposed to be mounted? http://uk.farnell.com/te-connectivity/v23130c2021a412/relay-battery-disconnect-12v/dp/1770635 http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/477184.pdf Looks like it already has diodes installed. If the coil has a resistance of 4.7 ohms, will this pull 3 amps continuously? Connector is here http://uk.farnell.com/te-connectivity-amp/184046-1/housing-plug-ssc-a-key-4-way/dp/2309162?ref=lookahead http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1697200.pdf Peter ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 25, 2013
From: Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Subject: Re: Master / Starter Relay
Perhaps this is better as a master relay - mounting lugs included, current draw is around 0.4A, cost is 50, $77 http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1670678.pdf On 25/04/2013 22:14, Peter Pengilly wrote: > > > Does anyone have any thoughts on the suitability of these devices from > Tyco for our applications, although may be a little expensive (70 = > $110, both + tax)? How are they supposed to be mounted? > > http://uk.farnell.com/te-connectivity/v23130c2021a412/relay-battery-disconnect-12v/dp/1770635 > > > http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/477184.pdf > > Looks like it already has diodes installed. > If the coil has a resistance of 4.7 ohms, will this pull 3 amps > continuously? > > Connector is here > > http://uk.farnell.com/te-connectivity-amp/184046-1/housing-plug-ssc-a-key-4-way/dp/2309162?ref=lookahead > > > http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1697200.pdf > > > Peter > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 25, 2013
From: Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Subject: Re: Master / Starter Relay
2nd try, this is the 12v version, 62 = $96, requires 0.3A hold on current. http://uk.farnell.com/te-connectivity/v23132a2001b200/relay-high-current-150a-12v/dp/2076581 Peter On 25/04/2013 22:14, Peter Pengilly wrote: > > > Does anyone have any thoughts on the suitability of these devices from > Tyco for our applications, although may be a little expensive (70 = > $110, both + tax)? How are they supposed to be mounted? > > http://uk.farnell.com/te-connectivity/v23130c2021a412/relay-battery-disconnect-12v/dp/1770635 > > > http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/477184.pdf > > Looks like it already has diodes installed. > If the coil has a resistance of 4.7 ohms, will this pull 3 amps > continuously? > > Connector is here > > http://uk.farnell.com/te-connectivity-amp/184046-1/housing-plug-ssc-a-key-4-way/dp/2309162?ref=lookahead > > > http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1697200.pdf > > > Peter > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jan <jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Master / Starter Relay
Date: Apr 25, 2013
Very modern and expensive (We use Tyco at work ..all good stuff) ... but what is wrong with $ 20,- from Vans ? http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=1366927288-350-189&brows e=electrical&product=master-sw Jan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Pengilly Sent: 25 April 2013 22:48 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Master / Starter Relay 2nd try, this is the 12v version, 62 = $96, requires 0.3A hold on current. http://uk.farnell.com/te-connectivity/v23132a2001b200/relay-high-current-150 a-12v/dp/2076581 Peter On 25/04/2013 22:14, Peter Pengilly wrote: > > > Does anyone have any thoughts on the suitability of these devices from > Tyco for our applications, although may be a little expensive (70 = > $110, both + tax)? How are they supposed to be mounted? > > http://uk.farnell.com/te-connectivity/v23130c2021a412/relay-battery-disconne ct-12v/dp/1770635 > > > http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/477184.pdf > > Looks like it already has diodes installed. > If the coil has a resistance of 4.7 ohms, will this pull 3 amps > continuously? > > Connector is here > > http://uk.farnell.com/te-connectivity-amp/184046-1/housing-plug-ssc-a-key-4- way/dp/2309162?ref=lookahead > > > http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1697200.pdf > > > Peter > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 25, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Radio interference
At 12:21 PM 4/25/2013, you wrote: > > >I am getting radio interference which seems to be from the alternator. >I am flight testing my homebuilt RV9A. It has a new Lycoming O320 >engine which has a Plane Power AL12 alternator. >The interference is a pulse or beep at an interval of about two per >second. Its interval changes with the engine speed and it ceases >when the alternator is disabled. >Please can you suggest the cause and a solution. >RobinT :( Does the noise get louder if you turn everything on and/or softer with everything but the radio off? Can you describe your ground system for us? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Master / Starter Relay
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Apr 26, 2013
> Very modern and expensive We use Tyco at work ..all good stuff ... but > what is wrong with $ 20,- from Vans? The $20 Type 70 contactor has been used for years. It might be okay for some applications, but there have been great strides in designing contactors. I often recommend the Kilovac EV200, the Gigavac GX-11, or NO CONTACTORS AT ALL (Use a remote battery switch from Flaming River) but there are many good choices. The Type 70 is rated at 122 degress F, is not sealed, not fuel proof, G-sensitive, requires external diodes (use Bidir Zeners!) and is less than ideal in other respects. But it is cheap. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399419#399419 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Master / Starter Relay
Date: Apr 26, 2013
And has been used with no real problem in aircraft for about a hundred years! If you glue dollar bills to the sides of the fuselage, it will make the fuselage a little stronger... :>) B2 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 8:37 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Master / Starter Relay > Very modern and expensive We use Tyco at work ..all good stuff ... but > what is wrong with $ 20,- from Vans? The $20 Type 70 contactor has been used for years. It might be okay for some applications, but there have been great strides in designing contactors. I often recommend the Kilovac EV200, the Gigavac GX-11, or NO CONTACTORS AT ALL (Use a remote battery switch from Flaming River) but there are many good choices. The Type 70 is rated at 122 degress F, is not sealed, not fuel proof, G-sensitive, requires external diodes (use Bidir Zeners!) and is less than ideal in other respects. But it is cheap. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399419#399419 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Master / Starter Relay
From: Holger Selover-Stephan <holger-d(at)shadowbrush.com>
Date: Apr 26, 2013
On Apr 26, 2013, at 6:29 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote: > If you glue dollar bills to the sides of the fuselage, it will make the > fuselage a little stronger... :>) Interesting. From a structural standpoint, which bill is recommended: $1, $20, $50, ...? Probably the higher ones, you get what you pay for? Holger PS: Plugged my 40W LED landing light into the cigarette lighter on a flight the other day, and there was no RF noise. More tests needed. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 26, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Putting two batteries in parallel
>I,m very excited to have a book like yours to refer to when it comes >to electrical airplanes. I have a couple of questions that I hope >that you can clarify for me. Thank you, I'll try . . . > >First: I'm one of those that thought that two batteries in >parallel will drain the higher one until both are at equal voltages >(kinda like air pressure tanks). No. Batteries CHARGE at 13.5 and above. Batteries DELIVER at 12.5 and below. Hence, a battery cannot charge another battery of same voltage. > The question is, when one battery has a shorted cell, will the > other battery not drain through the shorted cells in the bad > battery? This problem was one of the possible causes for Mr. > Gomez. I do understand that this is rare. Is it an idea to use a > diode from each battery so they do not feed into each other? Or is > this not necessary. No, with a properly maintained battery . . . in particular an SVLA battery . . . shorted cells are so rare as to be insignificant in terms of system reliability studies. > >Second: As per Figure 17-4, would you have the regulator for the >SD-8 set lower than the main regulator so that it will not take all >the load if both alternators were switched on together? No, an SD-8 is not intended to run simultaneously with a larger alternator. The SD-8 is a stand-by alternator held in quiescent reserve until needed. >Third: You mentioned that alternators do not run well without a >battery. How possible is it to use an alternator by itself or with >a shorted battery? Could you use the aux alternator with this >back-up from TCW >Technologies: <http://www.tcwtech.com/IBBS.htm>http://www.tcwtech.com/IBBS.htm If an alternator is up and running during a battery contactor failure . . . it will continue to power the airplane transparently to the pilot. There is risk that an alternator not supported by a battery can be 'stalled' with application of a large load transient . . . like landing gear pump motor. But unless your airplane's electro-whizzies are capable of producing such transients, the concern is insignificant. If you have dual, battery powered, electronic ignition and single alternator, a second battery will improve system reliability numbers. Figure Z-13/8 has about everything you'll ever need . . . but without the added cost of ownership for a second battery. Ignition products like P-Mags also eliminate any need for multiple batteries. In any case, factoring a 'shorted battery' into your Failure Mode Effects Analysis is not productive. Plan active notification of low volts, considered preventative maintenance of your battery and a Plan-B tailored to your system demands for continued flight to airport of intended destination. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 26, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Master / Starter Relay
At 04:14 PM 4/25/2013, you wrote: >Pengilly > >Does anyone have any thoughts on the suitability >of these devices from Tyco for our applications, >although may be a little expensive (70 = $110, >both + tax)? How are they supposed to be mounted? > >http://uk.farnell.com/te-connectivity/v23130c2021a412/relay-battery-disconnect-12v/dp/1770635 This is a BI-STABLE relay. Energize one coil to close it; energize the other coil to open it. This calls for a new paradigm in battery master switches. It's a fine product. My first question would explore expected return on investment for the purchase and installation of such a device. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 26, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Master / Starter Relay
At 04:14 PM 4/25/2013, you wrote: >Pengilly > >Does anyone have any thoughts on the suitability >of these devices from Tyco for our applications, >although may be a little expensive (=A370 = $110, >both + tax)? How are they supposed to be mounted? > >http://uk.farnell.com/te-connectivity/v23130c2021a412/relay-battery-disconn ect-12v/dp/1770635 This is a BI-STABLE relay. Energize one coil to close it; energize the other coil to open it. This calls for a new paradigm in battery master switches. It's a fine product. My first question would explore expected return on investment for the purchase and installation of such a device. P.S. This product would perform well as a BATTERY contactor but poorly as a STARTER contactor. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 26, 2013
From: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Master / Starter Relay
The linen in them might make for a decent phenolic, properly laminated. I don't think the denomination will matter much. ;-) Ed On 4/26/2013 8:57 AM, Holger Selover-Stephan wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Holger Selover-Stephan > > > On Apr 26, 2013, at 6:29 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote: > >> If you glue dollar bills to the sides of the fuselage, it will make the >> fuselage a little stronger... :>) > > Interesting. From a structural standpoint, which bill is recommended: $1, $20, $50, ...? Probably the higher ones, you get what you pay for? > > Holger > > PS: Plugged my 40W LED landing light into the cigarette lighter on a flight the other day, and there was no RF noise. More tests needed. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 26, 2013
From: Jeff Page <jpx(at)qenesis.com>
Subject: Re: 28V to 15.6V @ 5A
Wow - lots of possibilities, far less expensive than the TSO unit I was looking at. Astrodyne has some very promising products, that are burnt in and have noise filtering built-in. I am going to suggest to him that we get one of these and try it out. Thanks Eric ! Bob - you found some interesting items too. Seller kuuco has some that I may purchase just to play with. Jay - I enjoyed your story. Even in Toronto, where everything is available, sometimes that is the cheapest way to obtain a part :-) Thanks everyone. Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Dual Batteries
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 27, 2013
> If you have dual, battery powered, electronic ignition > and single alternator, a second battery will improve system > reliability numbers. Bob, The above quote is from yesterday's AeroElectric daily digest. Did you inadvertently leave the word "NOT" out? Or are you recommending that aircraft with electrically dependent engines with single alternators have dual batteries? Modern AGM batteries are very unlikely to short out. Good workmanship will minimize the danger of an open circuit. In the event of an open battery circuit, the alternator is capable of providing power without the battery. I think that a second battery adds unnecessary weight, cost, and complexity. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399486#399486 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 27, 2013
From: Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Dual Batteries
Joe, I disagree.- When you add the second battery, you add redundancy to the w hole power train [battery, master solenoid, shunt, wiring, etc].- If any one of those components fails, the associated battery is off-line. Another consideration is how long you can run after an alternator failure. - IIRC, the Odessy-type batteries have about a 20 amp-hour rating which, depending on your buss load, is probably 45-60 minutes of flight time after alt failure.- My personal preference is to have 100% reserve for emergen cy situations. Jeff Luckey --- On Sat, 4/27/13, user9253 wrote: From: user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dual Batteries Date: Saturday, April 27, 2013, 7:57 AM >- ---If you have dual, battery powered, electronic ignition >- ---and single alternator, a second battery will improve system >- ---reliability numbers. Bob, The above quote is from yesterday's AeroElectric daily digest.- Did you i nadvertently leave the word "NOT" out?- Or are you recommending that airc raft with electrically dependent engines with single alternators have dual batteries? Modern AGM batteries are very unlikely to short out.- Good workmanship w ill minimize the danger of an open circuit.- In the event of an open batt ery circuit, the alternator is capable of providing power without the batte ry.- I think that a second battery adds unnecessary weight, cost, and com plexity. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399486#399486 le, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 27, 2013
From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Dual Batteries
I think a lot of us, me included tend to over engineer these systems to some extent. Unless you really are going to follow C-130s into hurricanes or similar, Id suggest adding one layer of protection over what your Cessna/Piper had and call it good. Ebus, second alternator OR battery, PMAG or any one thing to add a layer over a bare bones system. If you lose both of those you're one un-lucky guy. Tim ________________________________ From: Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> Sent: Sat, April 27, 2013 9:20:40 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual Batteries Joe, I disagree. When you add the second battery, you add redundancy to the whole power train [battery, master solenoid, shunt, wiring, etc]. If any one of those components fails, the associated battery is off-line. Another consideration is how long you can run after an alternator failure. IIRC, the Odessy-type batteries have about a 20 amp-hour rating which, depending on your buss load, is probably 45-60 minutes of flight time after alt failure. My personal preference is to have 100% reserve for emergency situations. Jeff Luckey --- On Sat, 4/27/13, user9253 wrote: >From: user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com> >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dual Batteries >To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >Date: Saturday, April 27, 2013, 7:57 AM > > >> If you have dual, battery powered, electronic ignition >> and single alternator, a second battery will improve system >> reliability numbers. > >Bob, >The above quote is from yesterday's AeroElectric daily digest. Did you >inadvertently leave the word "NOT" out? Or are you recommending that aircraft >with electrically dependent engines with single alternators have dual batteries? >Modern AGM batteries are very unlikely to short out. Good workmanship will >minimize the danger of an open circuit. In the event of an open battery >circuit, the alternator is capable of providing power without the battery. I >think that a second battery adds unnecessary weight, cost, and complexity. >Joe > >-------- >Joe Gores > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399486#399486 > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List --> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Radio interference
From: "Builder_Bill" <jonesw(at)mindspring.com>
Date: Apr 27, 2013
Hey Bob, if the noise gets worst at higher alt output, does that implicate a rectifier diode exclusively? I was trying to think if there was another source of noise that would follow the alt load. Bill Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399493#399493 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roger & Jean" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Failed contactor
Date: Apr 27, 2013
Hi Bob, Just checking to see if you had a chance to open up that failed Main contactor that I sent to you a few weeks back. No urgency, just checking. Thanks, Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed contactor
From: "nuckollsr" <bob.nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Date: Apr 27, 2013
Yes I did. Lots of moisture damage. I've got it on my list of things to do when I get back to the office on Monday. Will take some pictures and report to the List Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399510#399510 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 27, 2013
From: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Dual Batteries
I'm doing dual Lightspeed Plasma 3 on my RV. I chose to run each directly off a separate PC680 with a fuselink. Either battery can be run on the main buss, or on the ebuss which also has a diode feed from the main. The 680 is rated at 17ah and my ebuss minimum comfortable load will be about 4 amps plus 2 more amps for the ignitions. Assuming day VFR, if I turn off one both battery contactors and have one battery supporting the ebuss, I should be able to run for about 3 plus hours while keeping the second battery in reserve except for the one amp I was drawing for the other ignition. That should leave me about 13 -14ah with which to run out my fuel with at least one ignition assured. This also assumes that I have tested the batteries recently and know how much they will really do at low draw rate. Putting a backup alternator on top of all that seems a little over the top, but maybe I'll add it before I undertake a Bahamas trip or something like that. The option I didn't select was for one battery and two alternators. Seems viable, and is lighter, but I just liked the separate feeds to the ignitions and being able to start from one battery and have no brownout problems with EFIS run from the other one. I will need to remember to close the contactor on the non starting battery after engine start so it will charge. I don't see that as a problem, just a post start checklist item. Push comes to shove, I can use both batteries for starting, too. If I do need both to start, it's time to do another capacity check and maybe replace one or both batteries. Ed Holyoke On 4/27/2013 9:56 AM, Tim Andres wrote: > I think a lot of us, me included tend to over engineer these systems > to some extent. Unless you really are going to follow C-130s into > hurricanes or similar, Id suggest adding one layer of protection over > what your Cessna/Piper had and call it good. Ebus, second alternator > OR battery, PMAG or any one thing to add a layer over a bare bones > system. If you lose both of those you're one un-lucky guy. > Tim > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Jeff Luckey > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Sent:* Sat, April 27, 2013 9:20:40 AM > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual Batteries > > Joe, > > I disagree. When you add the second battery, you add redundancy to > the whole power train [battery, master solenoid, shunt, wiring, etc]. > If any one of those components fails, the associated battery is off-line. > > Another consideration is how long you can run after an alternator > failure. IIRC, the Odessy-type batteries have about a 20 amp-hour > rating which, depending on your buss load, is probably 45-60 minutes > of flight time after alt failure. My personal preference is to have > 100% reserve for emergency situations. > > Jeff Luckey > > --- On *Sat, 4/27/13, user9253 //* wrote: > > > From: user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dual Batteries > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Saturday, April 27, 2013, 7:57 AM > > > > > > If you have dual, battery powered, electronic ignition > > and single alternator, a second battery will improve system > > reliability numbers. > > Bob, > The above quote is from yesterday's AeroElectric daily digest. > Did you inadvertently leave the word "NOT" out? Or are you > recommending that aircraft with electrically dependent engines > with single alternators have dual batteries? > Modern AGM batteries are very unlikely to short out. Good > workmanship will minimize the danger of an open circuit. In the > event of an open battery circuit, the alternator is capable of > providing power without the battery. I think that a second > battery adds unnecessary weight, cost, and complexity. > Joe > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399486#399486 > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List --> > > > <http://forums.matronics.com> > > * > > > * > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R. curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Failed contactor
Date: Apr 28, 2013
> Yes I did. Lots of moisture damage. I've got it on my list of things to do > when I get back to the office on Monday. Will take some pictures and > report to the List Great! looking forward to the report. The contactor is original equipment from a 1977 C177B (36 years old). It was flown regularly, albeit not a lot. The aircraft has only a bit more than 1000 hrs total time. It was hangered for the first 1/2 of it's life, in Iowa, but has been tied down here in New England, about 30 miles from the coast, for the second 1/2 so far. If I can give any further info to help with the diagnosis, let me know. Roger -- Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 29, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Dual Batteries
At 09:57 AM 4/27/2013, you wrote: > > > > If you have dual, battery powered, electronic ignition > > and single alternator, a second battery will improve system > > reliability numbers. > >Bob, >The above quote is from yesterday's AeroElectric daily digest. Did >you inadvertently leave the word "NOT" out? No, the architecture cited is right out of Lightspeed's installation instructions for dual electronic ignitions wherein he suggests a diode isolated, second battery dedicated to powering the second ignition system. It was this this train of thought that prompted the ABMM (Aux Battery Management Module) some years back. But Z-13/8 offers a third source for power which diminishes the value of a second battery. Of course, P-mags go a step further and relieves the need for any external sources for back-up power. > Or are you recommending that aircraft with electrically dependent > engines with single alternators have dual batteries? Not as a blanket recommendation but the question should be carefully considered. If you're flying a day-vfr pleasure machine, perhaps your plan-B with a carefully maintained battery is sufficient. But Z-13/8 or the auxiliary battery lets one approach the question with a 'less sharp' pencil. > Modern AGM batteries are very unlikely to short out. Good > workmanship will minimize the danger of an open circuit. In the > event of an open battery circuit, the alternator is capable of > providing power without the battery. I think that a second battery > adds unnecessary weight, cost, and complexity. Agreed. An SD-8 alternator is light, exceedingly reliable and low cost of ownership. It beats auxiliary batteries without even breathing hard. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Dual Batteries
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 29, 2013
Thanks for the reply Bob. A friend of mine is building an airplane and will install a Viking engine which is electrically dependent. The Viking does not have two independent ignition systems, although it does have a backup ECU in the same enclosure as the primary ECU. The ECU has provisions for two power inputs. However, those two power sources are connected together internal to the ECU. If both power sources are turned on simultaneously, they will be shorted together. Thus an electrical system isolating diode will effectively be shorted. One solution is to use mechanically interlocked ECU power switches which might not look good and will complicate operation, increasing pilot workload. Another option is to use a legacy TC electrical system with the addition of a relay (similar to E-Bus relay) to feed the opposite end of the power bus. The goal is to keep it simple while having a backup in case any one component fails. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399602#399602 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C...
From: "idleup" <matt(at)mattandmel.com>
Date: Apr 29, 2013
Bob, B&C recommended I ask you these questions because they did not know the answer for them. As you may know, they have a document called the 504-500 linked here http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/504-500_REV_G.pdf. This document shows wiring of the S704-1 when using the PMR1C-14 regulator for the SD-8. Anyway, the wiring on the newest revision of Z-13/8 (R) conflicts with their wiring diagram on a couple of points, can you please help me understand which one I should use? Here are specifically my questions that remained unanswered after talking to them: 1. On Z-13/8 (R) you have a jumper going between the positive side of the coil and the common pin. On their 505-500 they have nothing. On your older Z-13/8 (Q) you had a diode. What is the reason for this and which one should I follow? 2. On Z-13/8 (R) you have wired the common on the relay with a 30A inline fuse. On their 504-500 they used a 10A breaker. Both are wired using a 14AWG wire. What is the reason for such a large fuse? Should I really use 30A on this? I think that is it for now. Thanks, Matt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399627#399627 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: S704-1 Relay Question
From: "idleup" <matt(at)mattandmel.com>
Date: Apr 29, 2013
1. Am I correct that the S704-1 relay used for the backup alternator is wired to the regulator with the N.O. lead? 2. Can I use the N.C. lead for an "Aux Alt Offline" light? I assume this will be powered when the switch is off (or breaker tripped) right? 3. If I use an S704-1 relay for the E-Bus feed switch I would wire the Battery bus to the N.O. as well correct? In Z-13/8 the common is wired to the E-Bus but I am not sure if N.O. or N.C. is connected to the battery bus (it is not labeled) 4. Lastly, if I want to add a light for when the E-Bus feed switch is closed where would I do that? it looks like when the switch is open the N.C. is powered from the Main bus and the N.O. powered from the battery bus, so I do not see where I would tap in a light that is only powered when the switch is closed. Should I just wire the light at the switch to accomplish this instead of at the relay (using Pin 1 on the switch?). Thanks to anyone who can answer these questions. Matt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399629#399629 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 29, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Dual Batteries
On the way home from Wichita I had some further thoughts on this thread . . . >> Modern AGM batteries are very unlikely to short out. Good >> workmanship will minimize the danger of an open circuit. In the >> event of an open battery circuit, the alternator is capable of >> providing power without the battery. I think that a second >> battery adds unnecessary weight, cost, and complexity. > > Agreed. An SD-8 alternator is light, exceedingly > reliable and low cost of ownership. It beats > auxiliary batteries without even breathing hard. Sometimes its hard to sift the bits-and-pieces with consideration for the time frame of their conception and popular incorporation. For example, the original Endurance Bus was installed in a LongEz with a design goal for sizing/maintaining a battery and crafting an en route energy profile that offered electrical endurance equal to or greater than fuel aboard. Back then, the E-bus target loads were on the order of 2 amps or less. Even then, you were likely to arrive at destination with a depleted battery. Then the vacuum pumps started disappearing and the SD-8 was no longer limited to day-vfr power source in a simple airplane . . . it became a heavy duty player in the crafting of a much more robust endurance mode. Now the e-bus could jump to 8A and you now arrive with a battery held in total reserve for approach and landing. A BIG change over the 20+ years. The dual battery idea proffered by Lightspeed pre-dates the e-bus. I think it pre-dates the great SVLA take-over for aircraft batteries. I recall seeing two wet motor cycle batteries installed in an 'Ez about 20 years ago. The ABMM became a product on my website about 2003 and the article I did for Sport Aviation pre-dated the product by a year or two. Today, April 29, 2013 it is my considered opinion that an architecture like Z-13/8 and Z-12 COMBINED with a well maintained SLVA battery is EVERYTHING you need for securing a reliable source of energy for ALL of the ship's electro-whizzies. This assertion is offered in spite of the fondest wishes for anyone's electro-whizzy installation instructions suggesting or recommending adding any sort of stand-by or back-up battery. The elegant solution for an architecture calls for a minimum parts count, lowest practical weight and lowest cost of ownership while making sure that items necessary for comfortable termination of flight have energy sources with higher reliability than the device itself. With one MSVLA (Maintained SLVA) battery, and two alternators the likelihood of total loss of power is a tiny fraction compared to loss of the gizmo you're worrying about. You are more likely to benefit from having two such gizmos than for having a plethora of "emergency" power backups. A favorite question I used to ask the seminar attendees was, "What is the value of having lots of energy sources for a landing light bulb that you KNOW has a 10-50 hour service life?" If you often return home to a marginally illuminated field after dark then having two landing lights will offer a greater boost to system reliability than adding another energy source. With the advent of LED landing lights, perhaps that question needs to be updated. So getting back to the opening paragraph of this posting, let's not lose our grip on the manner in which many of the ingredients that went to legacy recipes for success came about . . . and be mindful of their applicability in the current kitchen. Does this mean there is no longer a valid reason to add a second battery? No, some electro-whizzies like to reboot during a starter inrush brown-out event. So having really small, brown-out protection battery might still be part of the elegant solution. On the other hand, one might simply PLAN pre-flight procedures for powering these items up after the engine is started. It's YOUR airplane, YOUR decision. Do what works best for you. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 29, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Failed contactor
At 07:45 AM 4/28/2013, you wrote: > > > >>Yes I did. Lots of moisture damage. I've got it on my list of >>things to do when I get back to the office on Monday. Will take >>some pictures and report to the List > > > Great! looking forward to the report. > > The contactor is original equipment from a 1977 C177B (36 years old). > It was flown regularly, albeit not a lot. The aircraft has > only a bit more than > 1000 hrs total time. It was hangered for the first 1/2 of > it's life, in Iowa, but has been > tied down here in New England, about 30 miles from the > coast, for the second > 1/2 so far. > > If I can give any further info to help with the diagnosis, > let me know. Does this airplane have the 'floating cowl' where the cowl is Dzuse fastened to shock mounts all around the edge of the fire wall? If so, is the contactor mounted on the fire wall? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 29, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C...
At 04:08 PM 4/29/2013, you wrote: > >Bob, > >B&C recommended I ask you these questions because they did not know >the answer for them. As you may know, they have a document called >the 504-500 linked here http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/504-500_REV_G.pdf. >This document shows wiring of the S704-1 when using the PMR1C-14 >regulator for the SD-8. Anyway, the wiring on the newest revision of >Z-13/8 (R) conflicts with their wiring diagram on a couple of >points, can you please help me understand which one I should use? >Here are specifically my questions that remained unanswered after >talking to them: > >1. On Z-13/8 (R) you have a jumper going between the positive side >of the coil and the common pin. On their 505-500 they have nothing. >On your older Z-13/8 (Q) you had a diode. What is the reason for >this and which one should I follow? > >2. On Z-13/8 (R) you have wired the common on the relay with a 30A >inline fuse. On their 504-500 they used a 10A breaker. Both are >wired using a 14AWG wire. What is the reason for such a large fuse? >Should I really use 30A on this? Either one works fine. The fuse was selected for robustness . . . sorta like a mini current limiter. Actually, if you'd like for your SD-8 to be self exciting, you can wire it per http://tinyurl.com/cdnqdf9 In that drawing I show s fusible link but a 20 to 30 amp inline fuse would be fine too. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R. curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Failed contactor
Date: Apr 29, 2013
> Does this airplane have the 'floating cowl' where the > cowl is Dzuse fastened to shock mounts all around the > edge of the fire wall? If so, is the contactor mounted > on the fire wall? The contactor is mounted on the battery box behind the baggage compartment, so it is inside and somewhat protected from the elements. Roger -- Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C...
From: "idleup" <matt(at)mattandmel.com>
Date: Apr 29, 2013
Bob, Thanks for the response, but what about my question #1? should I do the diode between the common and coil or just a standard jumper? I also notice on the Z25L pdf that you linked to you have a diode between the N.O. pin and the Coil as well. What are these for and which method should I use? Thanks, Matt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399638#399638 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 30, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C...
At 09:23 PM 4/29/2013, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Thanks for the response, but what about my question #1? should I do >the diode between the common and coil or just a standard jumper? I >also notice on the Z25L pdf that you linked to you have a diode >between the N.O. pin and the Coil as well. What are these for and >which method should I use? I'm not trying to be obtuse. Your question seems to offer the notion that there are errors of function between the various drawings cited. They all function as advertised with respect to the installation and operation of an SD-8 alternator. Yes, there are variations on a theme which are insignificant to the function. If you want me to pick one for you, then go with the wiring shown in Z-13/8. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: S704-1 Relay Question
From: "nuckollsr" <bob.nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Date: Apr 30, 2013
1. Am I correct that the S704-1 relay used for the backup alternator is wired to the regulator with the N.O. lead? There is nothing 'magic' about the N.O. terminal when you're using the relay as a single pole, single throw switch. Wire per the specific wiring diagram. 2. Can I use the N.C. lead for an "Aux Alt Offline" light? I assume this will be powered when the switch is off (or breaker tripped) right? Yes. 3. If I use an S704-1 relay for the E-Bus feed switch I would wire the Battery bus to the N.O. as well correct? In Z-13/8 the common is wired to the E-Bus but I am not sure if N.O. or N.C. is connected to the battery bus (it is not labeled) See question #1. 4. Lastly, if I want to add a light for when the E-Bus feed switch is closed where would I do that? it looks like when the switch is open the N.C. is powered from the Main bus and the N.O. powered from the battery bus, so I do not see where I would tap in a light that is only powered when the switch is closed. Should I just wire the light at the switch to accomplish this instead of at the relay (using Pin 1 on the switch?). Why would you want to do this? When the E-bus switch is closed, all items powered from the e-bus will be ON after the battery master is turned off. The E-Bus Alt Feed switch is part of power distribution and should be located right next to the ALT/BAT master. When parking the airplane, both switches would be DOWN. If you really need a light, it would wire in parallel with the coil of the e-bus alternate feed relay. Bob . . . Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399668#399668 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Feedback Request on Push-to-talk circuit...
From: "idleup" <matt(at)mattandmel.com>
Date: Apr 30, 2013
Would you guys be so kind as to tell me if the attach wiring diagram looks like it will work? I just need a simple push to test circuit for a few LED's I have. Thanks. - Matt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399682#399682 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/ptt_circuit_116.png ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: S704-1 Relay Question
From: "idleup" <matt(at)mattandmel.com>
Date: Apr 30, 2013
To answer the question as to why I would want an E-Bus feed indicator light there are a few reasons. Several VAF members have mentioned flying with the ebus switch closed under normal operations since any failure of the main bus circuit would then be automatically backed up. Another advantage is, when the ebus switch is closed you eliminate the voltage drop thru the Schottkey diode, which is not insignificant. Lastly, having the indicator would help to inadvertently drain the battery by forgetting to switch it off after the master is switched off. I understand your point that if you just make sure all the switches down then you would avoid this, but if I have and extra LED in my annunciator then it seems like a good application for using it. Thanks for the response. - Matt nuckollsr wrote: > 1. Am I correct that the S704-1 relay used for the backup alternator is wired to the regulator with the N.O. lead? > > There is nothing 'magic' about the N.O. terminal when you're using the relay as a single pole, single throw switch. Wire > per the specific wiring diagram. > > 2. Can I use the N.C. lead for an "Aux Alt Offline" light? I assume this will be powered when the switch is off (or breaker tripped) right? > > Yes. > > 3. If I use an S704-1 relay for the E-Bus feed switch I would wire the Battery bus to the N.O. as well correct? In Z-13/8 the common is wired to the E-Bus but I am not sure if N.O. or N.C. is connected to the battery bus (it is not labeled) > > See question #1. > > 4. Lastly, if I want to add a light for when the E-Bus feed switch is closed where would I do that? it looks like when the switch is open the N.C. is powered from the Main bus and the N.O. powered from the battery bus, so I do not see where I would tap in a light that is only powered when the switch is closed. Should I just wire the light at the switch to accomplish this instead of at the relay (using Pin 1 on the switch?). > > Why would you want to do this? When the E-bus switch is closed, all items powered from the e-bus will be ON after the battery master is turned off. The E-Bus Alt Feed switch is part of power distribution and should be located right next to the ALT/BAT master. When parking the airplane, both switches would be DOWN. If you really need a light, it would wire in parallel with the coil of the e-bus alternate feed relay. > > Bob . . . Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399683#399683 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C...
From: "idleup" <matt(at)mattandmel.com>
Date: Apr 30, 2013
I was not trying to imply that one was incorrect, I just do not understand the purpose of the diode in that application and whether it is necessary or not. B&C support was unable to tell me what it was there for either and directed me to ask you. - Matt nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > At 09:23 PM 4/29/2013, you wrote: > > > > > > > Bob, > > > > Thanks for the response, but what about my question #1? should I do > > the diode between the common and coil or just a standard jumper? I > > also notice on the Z25L pdf that you linked to you have a diode > > between the N.O. pin and the Coil as well. What are these for and > > which method should I use? > > > > > > I'm not trying to be obtuse. Your question seems > to offer the notion that there are errors of function > between the various drawings cited. They all function > as advertised with respect to the installation and > operation of an SD-8 alternator. Yes, there are > variations on a theme which are insignificant to > the function. > > If you want me to pick one for you, then go with > the wiring shown in Z-13/8. > > > > Bob . . . Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399684#399684 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 30, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: S704-1 Relay Question
At 12:32 PM 4/30/2013, you wrote: To answer the question as to why I would want an E-Bus feed indicator light there are a few reasons. Several VAF members have mentioned flying with the ebus switch closed under normal operations since any failure of the main bus circuit would then be automatically backed up. Another advantage is, when the ebus switch is closed you eliminate the voltage drop thru the Schottkey diode, which is not insignificant. Lastly, having the indicator would help to inadvertently drain the battery by forgetting to switch it off after the master is switched off. I understand your point that if you just make sure all the switches down then you would avoid this, but if I have and extra LED in my annunciator then it seems like a good application for using it. I am mystified as to what kind of failure causes the main bus to go dark. The premise that 'automatic backup' of an unqualified failure mode is flawed. The voltage drop across the diode IS insignificant. DO-160 qualified electro-whizzies are shown to function down to 11 volts or less. 11 volts is end of battery life. When you're operating with a failed alternator, the e-bus alternate feed switch is closed and ALL e-bus gizmos are now EXPECTED to function as advertised BATTERY only . . . 12.5 down to 11.0 volts. With the alternator running, the main bus is 14.2 or greater. With even with a .7 volt rectifier drop, the e-bus is supported at 13.5 or so . . . 1 volt GREATER than the expected voltage for battery-only ops. Hence, voltage drop in the diode has no observable impact on system performance for devices powered from the e-bus. Concerns relieved by flying with the alternate feed switch closed are not based on demonstrable conditions. Forget . . . forget????? Do you not use a checklist for activities important the health, safety, comfort and lowest cost of ownership for your airplane? The e-bus alternate feed switch is usually pre-flight checked before the master is turned on. Power up the nav/com, get the ATIS and perhaps a clearance. Turn it back off, power up the main bus and start the engine. The e-bus alternate feed is not needed unless battery-only ops become necessary hence not likely to be left on either as a function of forgetfulness or lack of a documented procedure. Annunciators are a good thing for bringing CHANGES or DEPARTURES from normal/ideal conditions to the attention of a pilot. Low volts, low oil pressure, hydraulic pressure low, etc. Lights that stay on during normal ops are a potential distraction . . .this is why gear up-lock lights are NEVER included on an annunciator panel. If your e-bus alternate feed switch was closed when you landed, then there should have been a reason for it; a reason that indicates some repairs to the electrical system are in order. To my way of thinking, the darkest possible panel is ideal for night flight. For improved night vision and reduced reflections off the canopy . . . every source of illumination you can dim to barely visible or leave off entirely puts more risk-reduction points on your side of the blackboard. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vern Little" <sprocket@vx-aviation.com>
Subject: Re: Feedback Request on Push-to-talk circuit...
Date: Apr 30, 2013
Hi Matt, I'm happy to help with this. First, I think that you need a few more isolating diodes. I don't know the characteristics of some of the inputs, so there is a possibility that they may provide a current path to ground (or power) when the push to test function is active. If you want more details, I could draw it up, but I think you can figure it out. However, and this is a big issue, you have a push to test function that checks whether reliable LEDs are functioning with an unreliable mechanical device... the relay. It is 10 to 100 times more likely to fail than the circuits you are testing. You are better off not having the push to test function at all. A better and more reliable solution if you want the test function is to get one of these: http://store.makerplane.org/annunciator-controller-il-4a/ It solves all of your problems. Vern -----Original Message----- From: idleup Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 10:17 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Feedback Request on Push-to-talk circuit... Would you guys be so kind as to tell me if the attach wiring diagram looks like it will work? I just need a simple push to test circuit for a few LED's I have. Thanks. - Matt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399682#399682 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/ptt_circuit_116.png ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Feedback Request on Push-to-talk circuit...
From: "idleup" <matt(at)mattandmel.com>
Date: Apr 30, 2013
Thank you Vern, I appreciate your responding. I did not know the relay was such an unreliable device. I really do not want to spend $150 to test some LED lights (I am going to have more than 4). None of them are attached to sensors, they are all either power or ground switched 12v LEDs. I was going to look at the schematics for the device you linked too but the link to the open source files is broken, do you know a link that works? Also, do you think that a transistor based solution is more reliable than a relay? A while back Bob posted a drawing he did that used two transistors and four resistors to achieve the same one button design I did with a relay (see attached). Also, would the isolating diodes you referred to go on the other input line? I saw a design with those in there but did not understand why they were necessary... Let me know what you think... - Matt sprocket(at)vx-aviation.c wrote: > Hi Matt, I'm happy to help with this. > > First, I think that you need a few more isolating diodes. I don't know the > characteristics of some of the inputs, so there is a possibility that they > may provide a current path to ground (or power) when the push to test > function is active. If you want more details, I could draw it up, but I > think you can figure it out. > > However, and this is a big issue, you have a push to test function that > checks whether reliable LEDs are functioning with an unreliable mechanical > device... the relay. It is 10 to 100 times more likely to fail than the > circuits you are testing. You are better off not having the push to test > function at all. > > A better and more reliable solution if you want the test function is to get > one of these: > > http://store.makerplane.org/annunciator-controller-il-4a/ > > It solves all of your problems. > > Vern > > -- Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399698#399698 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/one_button_ptt_for_pu_pd_annunciation_cluster_177.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 30, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Feedback Request on Push-to-talk circuit...
At 12:17 PM 4/30/2013, you wrote: > >Would you guys be so kind as to tell me if the attach wiring diagram >looks like it will work? I just need a simple push to test circuit >for a few LED's I have. Thanks. > >- Matt > > Why are you doing press to test on LEDs? Incandescent bulbs as warning devices begged for press to test given that their demonstrated service life was a fraction of that for the airplane. On the other hand, LEDs will outlive the machine. All of those LEDs can be tested during normal pre-flight procedures. In other words, NOT seeing a light when it is expected to be operating is a more relevant test than having the light respond to a press-to-test switch. Press-to-test circuits test a button, a bulb and in your example, a relay. The fact that the light DID come on says nothing about the electro- whizzy that drives it. On the other hand, seeing one of those lights illuminate when it is EXPECTED to do so is 100% assurance for both the bulb and the integrity of the annunciator signal that drives it. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Feedback Request on Push-to-talk circuit...
From: "idleup" <matt(at)mattandmel.com>
Date: Apr 30, 2013
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > At 12:17 PM 4/30/2013, you wrote: > > > > > > > Would you guys be so kind as to tell me if the attach wiring diagram > > looks like it will work? I just need a simple push to test circuit > > for a few LED's I have. Thanks. > > > > - Matt > > > > > > > > > > Why are you doing press to test on LEDs? > > Incandescent bulbs as warning devices begged > for press to test given that their demonstrated > service life was a fraction of that for the > airplane. On the other hand, LEDs will outlive the machine. > > All of those LEDs can be tested during normal > pre-flight procedures. In other words, NOT > seeing a light when it is expected to be operating > is a more relevant test than having the light > respond to a press-to-test switch. > > Press-to-test circuits test a button, a bulb > and in your example, a relay. The fact that the > light DID come on says nothing about the electro- > whizzy that drives it. > > On the other hand, seeing one of those lights > illuminate when it is EXPECTED to do so is 100% > assurance for both the bulb and the integrity > of the annunciator signal that drives it. > > > > > Bob . . . The best answer I could give you is because I thought you were supposed to have a "Push to test" function for your annunciators. If it is not necessary for LED's than I am more than happy to ditch the whole thing. Less parts, less complexity... - Matt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399704#399704 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John & Sue Dehnert" <bankshire(at)harboursat.com.au>
Subject: Re: S704-1 Relay Question
Date: May 01, 2013
If you want a E-Bus feed indicator light wire the low oil pressure warning light through the E-Bus. John. ----- Original Message ----- From: "idleup" <matt(at)mattandmel.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 3:32 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: S704-1 Relay Question > > To answer the question as to why I would want an E-Bus feed indicator > light there are a few reasons. Several VAF members have mentioned flying > with the ebus switch closed under normal operations since any failure of > the main bus circuit would then be automatically backed up. Another > advantage is, when the ebus switch is closed you eliminate the voltage > drop thru the Schottkey diode, which is not insignificant. Lastly, having > the indicator would help to inadvertently drain the battery by forgetting > to switch it off after the master is switched off. I understand your point > that if you just make sure all the switches down then you would avoid > this, but if I have and extra LED in my annunciator then it seems like a > good application for using it. > > Thanks for the response. > > - Matt > > > nuckollsr wrote: >> 1. Am I correct that the S704-1 relay used for the backup alternator is >> wired to the regulator with the N.O. lead? >> >> There is nothing 'magic' about the N.O. terminal when you're using the >> relay as a single pole, single throw switch. Wire >> per the specific wiring diagram. >> >> 2. Can I use the N.C. lead for an "Aux Alt Offline" light? I assume this >> will be powered when the switch is off (or breaker tripped) right? >> >> Yes. >> >> 3. If I use an S704-1 relay for the E-Bus feed switch I would wire the >> Battery bus to the N.O. as well correct? In Z-13/8 the common is wired to >> the E-Bus but I am not sure if N.O. or N.C. is connected to the battery >> bus (it is not labeled) >> >> See question #1. >> >> 4. Lastly, if I want to add a light for when the E-Bus feed switch is >> closed where would I do that? it looks like when the switch is open the >> N.C. is powered from the Main bus and the N.O. powered from the battery >> bus, so I do not see where I would tap in a light that is only powered >> when the switch is closed. Should I just wire the light at the switch to >> accomplish this instead of at the relay (using Pin 1 on the switch?). >> >> Why would you want to do this? When the E-bus switch is closed, all items >> powered from the e-bus will be ON after the battery master is turned off. >> The E-Bus Alt Feed switch is part of power distribution and should be >> located right next to the ALT/BAT master. When parking the airplane, >> both switches would be DOWN. If you really need a light, it would wire in >> parallel with the coil of the e-bus alternate feed relay. >> >> Bob . . . > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399683#399683 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C...
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 30, 2013
Matt, Bob's and B&C's drawings do not conflict. They are different. There are many different ways to wire an aircraft. I suggest that you use one of Bob's drawings because his are for the whole electrical system, not just a part of it. Z-13/8 Rev Q has two diodes connected to the dynamo relay. These diodes potentially provide power to the relay from two sources: 1. The main power bus. 2. The dynamo. The diodes isolate the two sources from each other until the relay is energized Z-13/8 Rev R does not have diodes. You asked which drawing to use. I suggest Z-13/8 Rev R with a minor change: Move the jumper from the common terminal of the dynamo relay to the normally open terminal. The reason is that there could be a failure mode when there is no power available at the main power bus to operate the dynamo relay. There will always be power available from the dynamo. And if there isn't, then there is no reason to turn the dynamo relay on. Perhaps Bob will comment on this suggestion. > 1. Am I correct that the S704-1 relay used for the backup alternator is wired to the regulator with the N.O. lead? Yes > 2. Can I use the N.C. lead for an "Aux Alt Offline" light? I assume this will be powered when the switch is off (or breaker tripped) right? Yes and Yes. But why have a light? It will always be on. Lights should warn of an unusual situation. > 3. If I use an S704-1 relay for the E-Bus feed switch I would wire the Battery bus to the N.O. as well correct? Yes The two parallel lines below the relay coil represent the metal core of the relay. When the coil is energized, the core becomes a magnet and pulls the movable contact towards the core and towards the normally open contact. So the contact closest to the core is N.O. > 4. Lastly, if I want to add a light for when the E-Bus feed switch is closed where would I do that? it looks like when the switch is open the N.C. is powered from the Main bus and the N.O. powered from the battery bus, so I do not see where I would tap in a light that is only powered when the switch is closed. Should I just wire the light at the switch to accomplish this instead of at the relay (using Pin 1 on the switch?). > I think that a light will be useful to warn you if the E-Bus switch has been left on after shutdown. You do not want the battery to run down. You are correct that there will be power on both the N.O. and COM relay terminals. A light can not be connected there. And a light can not be connected to terminal 1 of the switch because it will be in series with the relay coil. In that case, the light could illuminate dimly with the switch off. Or the relay might not shut off with the switch. Of course the light will not illuminate with the switch on because the light will then have ground connected to both of its terminals. Use a DPST or a DPDT switch for the E-Bus relay. One half of the switch will operate the relay and the other half will operate the light. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399721#399721 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C...
From: "idleup" <matt(at)mattandmel.com>
Date: Apr 30, 2013
user9253 wrote: > Matt, > Bob's and B&C's drawings do not conflict. They are different. There are many different ways to wire an aircraft. I suggest that you use one of Bob's drawings because his are for the whole electrical system, not just a part of it. > Z-13/8 Rev Q has two diodes connected to the dynamo relay. These diodes potentially provide power to the relay from two sources: 1. The main power bus. 2. The dynamo. The diodes isolate the two sources from each other until the relay is energized > Z-13/8 Rev R does not have diodes. > You asked which drawing to use. I suggest Z-13/8 Rev R with a minor change: Move the jumper from the common terminal of the dynamo relay to the normally open terminal. The reason is that there could be a failure mode when there is no power available at the main power bus to operate the dynamo relay. There will always be power available from the dynamo. And if there isn't, then there is no reason to turn the dynamo relay on. Perhaps Bob will comment on this suggestion. > > > 1. Am I correct that the S704-1 relay used for the backup alternator is wired to the regulator with the N.O. lead? > > Yes > > > 2. Can I use the N.C. lead for an "Aux Alt Offline" light? I assume this will be powered when the switch is off (or breaker tripped) right? > > Yes and Yes. But why have a light? It will always be on. Lights should warn of an unusual situation. > > > 3. If I use an S704-1 relay for the E-Bus feed switch I would wire the Battery bus to the N.O. as well correct? > > Yes > The two parallel lines below the relay coil represent the metal core of the relay. When the coil is energized, the core becomes a magnet and pulls the movable contact towards the core and towards the normally open contact. So the contact closest to the core is N.O. > > > 4. Lastly, if I want to add a light for when the E-Bus feed switch is closed where would I do that? it looks like when the switch is open the N.C. is powered from the Main bus and the N.O. powered from the battery bus, so I do not see where I would tap in a light that is only powered when the switch is closed. Should I just wire the light at the switch to accomplish this instead of at the relay (using Pin 1 on the switch?). > > > > I think that a light will be useful to warn you if the E-Bus switch has been left on after shutdown. You do not want the battery to run down. You are correct that there will be power on both the N.O. and COM relay terminals. A light can not be connected there. And a light can not be connected to terminal 1 of the switch because it will be in series with the relay coil. In that case, the light could illuminate dimly with the switch off. Or the relay might not shut off with the switch. Of course the light will not illuminate with the switch on because the light will then have ground connected to both of its terminals. Use a DPST or a DPDT switch for the E-Bus relay. One half of the switch will operate the relay and the other half will operate the light. > Joe Thanks Joe, What happens if the Aux alternator is turned on while under normal operations and both alternators are feeding the electrical system at one time? As for the ebus feed light, what about putting the anode of the LED on the N.O. contact of the relay (coming from the battery bus) and the cathode on the side of the coil where the switch is connected? Thanks, Matt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399741#399741 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C...
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 01, 2013
Matt, > Thanks Joe, What happens if the Aux alternator is turned on while under normal operations and both alternators are feeding the electrical system at one time? I do not think that anything will blow up. But the voltage might not be steady. Bob can answer better than I can. > As for the ebus feed light, what about putting the anode of the LED on the N.O. contact of the relay (coming from the battery bus) and the cathode on the side of the coil where the switch is connected? In other words, connect the diode in parallel with the relay coil. The Diode needs a series resistor to limit current. It is good wiring practice to be able to shut off all battery loads as close to the battery as possible. Thus the master contactor and E-bus relay should both be located near the battery. If a wire is connected to the battery side of the E-Bus relay and run into the cockpit, that wire will always be hot with no way to shut it off. In the event of an imminent forced off-airport landing, the pilot needs to shut off all electrical sources to prevent sparks that could ignite gasoline. Same thing in case of smoke in the cockpit. Using a double pole switch will eliminate that long hot wire run. And the switch will be located for easy connection to a light. Another option is to connect an un-switched light to the E-Bus. It will warn if either the master switch or E-Bus switch is left on. Or the pilot could just look at his electronic devices to be sure they are off before she exits the aircraft. Then no light is needed. I think that having an avionics master is a bad idea. It is a single point of failure. I routinely leave all of my radios and EFIS on, even when cranking the engine. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399755#399755 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 01, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C...
At 12:35 PM 4/30/2013, you wrote: > >I was not trying to imply that one was incorrect, I just do not >understand the purpose of the diode in that application and whether >it is necessary or not. B&C support was unable to tell me what it >was there for either and directed me to ask you. Understand. The general rule of thumb is that inductive loads (especially coils of relays and contactors) be transient suppressed with some technology that satisfies design goals. Here's a data dump on the background for selection and incorporation of inductive load transient mitigation: http://tinyurl.com/ccuvhaf http://tinyurl.com/c6zodmx http://tinyurl.com/cxlx35m http://tinyurl.com/c2c38ce In some instances, drawings that I produce may NOT include a transient suppressor. This is the case when the electronics that drive the relay have field collapse transient suppression built in . . . or when incorporation of the feature adds no value. In the case where a crowbar ovm is wired across an alternator control relay, components within the ovm take care of the problem; no additional suppression is needed. My train of thought was getting de-railed by references to N.O. or N.C. contacts on relays; vagaries of design that did not impact the physics. Forgive me if I came off unnecessarily terse . . . our trains of thought were running on different tracks! Hope the narrative above helps. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 01, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: S704-1 Relay Question
At 05:45 PM 4/30/2013, you wrote: > > >If you want a E-Bus feed indicator light wire the low oil pressure >warning light through the E-Bus. >John. Cool idea! I seem to recall some years back that an RV builder wired his canopy unlatched light to the e-bus to achieve a similar functionality. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C...
From: "idleup" <matt(at)mattandmel.com>
Date: May 01, 2013
user9253 wrote: > Matt, > > > Thanks Joe, What happens if the Aux alternator is turned on while under normal operations and both alternators are feeding the electrical system at one time? > > I do not think that anything will blow up. But the voltage might not be steady. Bob can answer better than I can. > > > As for the ebus feed light, what about putting the anode of the LED on the N.O. contact of the relay (coming from the battery bus) and the cathode on the side of the coil where the switch is connected? > > In other words, connect the diode in parallel with the relay coil. The Diode needs a series resistor to limit current. It is good wiring practice to be able to shut off all battery loads as close to the battery as possible. Thus the master contactor and E-bus relay should both be located near the battery. If a wire is connected to the battery side of the E-Bus relay and run into the cockpit, that wire will always be hot with no way to shut it off. In the event of an imminent forced off-airport landing, the pilot needs to shut off all electrical sources to prevent sparks that could ignite gasoline. Same thing in case of smoke in the cockpit. Using a double pole switch will eliminate that long hot wire run. And the switch will be located for easy connection to a light. > Another option is to connect an un-switched light to the E-Bus. It will warn if either the master switch or E-Bus switch is left on. > Or the pilot could just look at his electronic devices to be sure they are off before she exits the aircraft. Then no light is needed. > I think that having an avionics master is a bad idea. It is a single point of failure. I routinely leave all of my radios and EFIS on, even when cranking the engine. > Joe Joe, are you saying that the E-Bus relay should be located on the Engine side of the Firewall? I thought it was on the cockpit side for heat protection. - Matt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399762#399762 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 01, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Feedback Request on Push-to-talk circuit...
> >The best answer I could give you is because I thought you were >supposed to have a "Push to test" function for your annunciators. If >it is not necessary for LED's than I am more than happy to ditch the >whole thing. Less parts, less complexity... > >- Matt Aha! But of course . . . A common design pit-fall for the OBAM aviation community is to study and understand (1) what features are part of a well considered failure mode effects analysis, (2) what features are there just because the designer WANTS them and (3) what features are being considered just because that's the way it's been done for decades. The fundamental tool for system design is the Failure Mode Effects Analysis (FMEA). It's a simple design process that runs in background while seeking the elegant solution. The process is completely intuitive. Briefly stated: 1. How many ways can this part fail? 2. How will each failure affect system operation? 3. How will I know it failed? 4. Is the failure pre-flight detectable? 5. Is failure of this part, in any failure mode, likely to create a hazard to flight? 6. Will failure of this part be likely to overtax my piloting skills for comfortably terminating the flight? These questions are excerpted from an article at http://tinyurl.com/ch547rn which explains their utility in more detail. Considering your constellation of LED annunciators in light of the above exercise will allow YOU to decide which of the three design goals are applicable to inclusion of a press-to-test system. In the dual battery discussion earlier this week, we wrestled with a constellation of ideas that spanned decades of product evolution . . . ideas that may now be obsolete as a byproduct of new opportunities in technology and capabilities of modern accessories. But in EVERY case, filtering your deliberations through the array of questions above is the simplest, clearest path to understanding value of the design feature being considered. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C...
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 01, 2013
Matt, > are you saying that the E-Bus relay should be located on the Engine side of the Firewall? Yes > I thought it was on the cockpit side for heat protection. Theoretically speaking, a relay will last longer in a cool environment. Practically speaking, the life of a relay will not be significantly shortened if located in the engine compartment. Automobiles have relays located in the engine compartment. It must get pretty hot under the hood in the summer when stuck in a traffic jam. The master contactor is a big relay usually located inside of the cowl. Relays can be used for different reasons like circuit isolation or to handle loads that are too big for a small switch. In the case of an E-bus relay, I believe the purpose is remote control. After all, a simple switch can carry the E-bus loads without using a relay. Remote control using relays or contactors allows power to be shut off near the source, thus reducing the chances of smoke or fire in case of an accident. When the engine quits over hostile terrain and the pilot is busy looking for a survival crash site, will she remember to shut off the master and E-Bus? :-) Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399767#399767 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 01, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C...
At 08:29 AM 5/1/2013, you wrote: Matt, > Thanks Joe, What happens if the Aux alternator is turned on while under normal operations and both alternators are feeding the electrical system at one time? I do not think that anything will blow up. But the voltage might not be steady. Bob can answer better than I can. Running two alternators at the same time never offers a potential for hazard. The alternator with the higher regulation set point will attempt to shoulder all system loads. In Z-12, the second, smaller alternator is constantly connected to the bus and is normally switched ON. Design goals for this configuration call for the smaller alternator regulator to be set at 13.6 volts while the main alternator is set for 14.6. This means that the standby alternator is not capable of charging the battery. Further, the standby regulator senses a 'too high' bus voltage while the main alternator is running. This causes the standby system to simply relax. Standby alternator field voltage goes to zero. If the main alternator quits, bus voltage sags. The SB regulator wakes up and brings the SB alternator on line. The SB regulator doesn't have a low voltage warning system. Instead, the light monitors field voltage. If the voltage comes up, the valid assumption is that the alternator is now loaded due to a perceived drop in bus voltage. An added feature measures load on the alternator and flashes the light if loads exceed the alternator's rated current. The SD-8 doesn't have that much sophistication. If it is paralleled with a second alternator, it will STILL attempt to pick up all system loads if its regulator is set higher than its companion alternator. If loads exceed SD-8 output, the bus voltage sags and the companion alternator will come on line and pick up the difference while allowing the SD-8 to run 'full bore'. If the main alternator voltage is set higher, the SD-8 will shut down and remain unloaded unless and until the main alternator fails or is shut off. At that time, continued flight with the SD-8 calls for reducing system loads to some value at or below the SD-8 output of 8-10 amps. But in either instance, there is no immediate hazard to electrical system operation with paralleled alternators of equal or different sizes. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C...
From: "idleup" <matt(at)mattandmel.com>
Date: May 01, 2013
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > At 08:29 AM 5/1/2013, you wrote: > > > Matt, > > > Thanks Joe, What happens if the Aux alternator is turned on while > under normal operations and both alternators are feeding the > electrical system at one time? > > I do not think that anything will blow up. But the voltage might not > be steady. Bob can answer better than I can. > > Running two alternators at the same time never > offers a potential for hazard. The alternator with > the higher regulation set point will attempt to shoulder > all system loads. In Z-12, the second, smaller alternator > is constantly connected to the bus and is normally switched > ON. Design goals for this configuration call for the smaller > alternator regulator to be set at 13.6 volts while the main > alternator is set for 14.6. > > This means that the standby alternator is not capable of > charging the battery. Further, the standby regulator > senses a 'too high' bus voltage while the main alternator > is running. This causes the standby system to simply relax. > Standby alternator field voltage goes to zero. > > If the main alternator quits, bus voltage sags. The SB > regulator wakes up and brings the SB alternator on line. > The SB regulator doesn't have a low voltage warning system. > Instead, the light monitors field voltage. If the voltage > comes up, the valid assumption is that the alternator is now > loaded due to a perceived drop in bus voltage. An added feature > measures load on the alternator and flashes the light if loads > exceed the alternator's rated current. > > The SD-8 doesn't have that much sophistication. If it is > paralleled with a second alternator, it will STILL attempt > to pick up all system loads if its regulator is set higher > than its companion alternator. If loads exceed SD-8 output, > the bus voltage sags and the companion alternator will come > on line and pick up the difference while allowing the SD-8 > to run 'full bore'. > > If the main alternator voltage is set higher, the SD-8 > will shut down and remain unloaded unless and until the > main alternator fails or is shut off. At that time, continued > flight with the SD-8 calls for reducing system loads to > some value at or below the SD-8 output of 8-10 amps. > > But in either instance, there is no immediate hazard to > electrical system operation with paralleled alternators > of equal or different sizes. > > > Bob . . . Bob, thanks for the very detailed explanation of how the two alternators will respond to one other when in operation at the same time. - Matt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399785#399785 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 01, 2013
Subject: Re: S704-1 Relay Question
From: James Kilford <james(at)etravel.org>
It took me a while to get this! Now I've twigged... nice idea! James On 30 April 2013 23:45, John & Sue Dehnert wrote: > bankshire(at)harboursat.com.au> > > If you want a E-Bus feed indicator light wire the low oil pressure warning > light through the E-Bus. > John. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "idleup" <matt(at)mattandmel.com> > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 3:32 AM > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: S704-1 Relay Question > > >> >> To answer the question as to why I would want an E-Bus feed indicator >> light there are a few reasons. Several VAF members have mentioned flying >> with the ebus switch closed under normal operations since any failure of >> the main bus circuit would then be automatically backed up. Another >> advantage is, when the ebus switch is closed you eliminate the voltage drop >> thru the Schottkey diode, which is not insignificant. Lastly, having the >> indicator would help to inadvertently drain the battery by forgetting to >> switch it off after the master is switched off. I understand your point >> that if you just make sure all the switches down then you would avoid this, >> but if I have and extra LED in my annunciator then it seems like a good >> application for using it. >> >> Thanks for the response. >> >> - Matt >> >> >> >> >> >> nuckollsr wrote: >> >>> 1. Am I correct that the S704-1 relay used for the backup alternator is >>> wired to the regulator with the N.O. lead? >>> >>> There is nothing 'magic' about the N.O. terminal when you're using >>> the relay as a single pole, single throw switch. Wire >>> per the specific wiring diagram. >>> >>> 2. Can I use the N.C. lead for an "Aux Alt Offline" light? I assume this >>> will be powered when the switch is off (or breaker tripped) right? >>> >>> Yes. >>> >>> 3. If I use an S704-1 relay for the E-Bus feed switch I would wire the >>> Battery bus to the N.O. as well correct? In Z-13/8 the common is wired to >>> the E-Bus but I am not sure if N.O. or N.C. is connected to the battery bus >>> (it is not labeled) >>> >>> See question #1. >>> >>> 4. Lastly, if I want to add a light for when the E-Bus feed switch is >>> closed where would I do that? it looks like when the switch is open the >>> N.C. is powered from the Main bus and the N.O. powered from the battery >>> bus, so I do not see where I would tap in a light that is only powered when >>> the switch is closed. Should I just wire the light at the switch to >>> accomplish this instead of at the relay (using Pin 1 on the switch?). >>> >>> Why would you want to do this? When the E-bus switch is closed, all >>> items powered from the e-bus will be ON after the battery master is turned >>> off. The E-Bus Alt Feed switch is part of power distribution and should be >>> located right next to the ALT/BAT master. When parking the airplane, both >>> switches would be DOWN. If you really need a light, it would wire in >>> parallel with the coil of the e-bus alternate feed relay. >>> >>> Bob . . . >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/**viewtopic.php?p=399683#399683> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 01, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C...
>In the case of an E-bus relay, I believe the purpose is remote >control. After all, a simple switch can carry the E-bus loads >without using a relay. Remote control using relays or contactors >allows power to be shut off near the source, thus reducing the >chances of smoke or fire in case of an accident. Correct. The e-bus alternate feed relay is actually a mini-contactor for a two layer electrical system. Layer 1 is a battery and SD-8 alternator driving a small bus (e-bus). Closing a big battery contactor to add a second layer consisting of larger alternator and bus that runs items not necessary for en route endurance operations. > When the engine quits over hostile terrain and the pilot is busy > looking for a survival crash site, will she remember to shut off > the master and E-Bus? Exactly. The function of the alternate feed relay is to facilitate actions that get the electrical system down to max-dark. This is why the wires on the hot side of the alternate feed relay are marked with the (*) calling for 'short as practical'. Environmental temperatures for off-the-shelf automotive relays are not a major concern. Everything used under the hood of a car is entirely suited for use under the cowl of an airplane. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 01, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Questions for Bob after talking to B&C...
> >Bob, thanks for the very detailed explanation of how the two >alternators will respond to one other when in operation at the same time. > >- Matt It occurs to me that the narration I offered was true of two alternators like a L60/SD-20 pair or perhaps an L60/SD-8 pair. If the two alternators are of similar or equal size -AND- depending on regulator dynamics, it's possible that the two systems will launch into a sort of volley-ball behavior where they toss system loads back and forth at each other. About 30 years ago I proposed a PARALLELING regulator design for the Cessna 303 Crusader's dual alternators. That was the first time I witnessed this effect. Again, no particular hazard is created but the behavior can be annoying to spectacular. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Radio interference
From: "robintaylor" <robintaylor(at)airteccc.co.uk>
Date: May 02, 2013
Thanks for the response Bob, I had to wait until I flew again. I am flying with twin Dynon Skyviews, as I turn each off, the noise progressively reduces. The frequency of the noise increases with the speed of the engine. I have a common ground on the firewall that everything is connected to. Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399840#399840 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 02, 2013
Subject: How to test engine ground?
From: Dan Checkoway <dcheckoway(at)gmail.com>
This may seem like a ridiculous question, and hopefully I'll end up slapping my forehead when I hear the answer...but here goes anyway. I'd like to quantify, or at least qualify my engine ground connection. That is, I have a 2 AWG wire connecting my engine to the ground block on the firewall. Suffice it to say, I have reason to suspect that one of the connections is less than perfect. I have an intermittent issue (probably another thread in the making), and I want to rule out ground as a culprit. When I throw an ohmmeter across, of course I see zero ohms. But that only tells me the obvious. It would probably read zero even if I had a 24 AWG wire in its place. :-) And what I'm concerned about is that maybe it's reading zero despite the engine side connection not making good enough contact. Probably not, but I'd like to rule it out. Is there any way (something a doofus like me could do) to test the quality of this engine ground connection? i.e. when my starter is sucking 200 amps through that straw, I'd like to know if it's truly unimpeded so to speak. Any tips or tricks? Or do we just trust that if the wire is fat enough, we *think* our connections are fine, the starter cranks and nothing smokes, then life is good enough? Thanks, Dan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: How to test engine ground?
Date: May 02, 2013
Dan=3B Connect your voltmeter between the battery negative post and the engine cas e/starter housing while cranking and see what the voltage drop is. Very low voltage reading = good ground. significant voltage reading = bad groun d. If you also know what current you're drawing you can calculate total loo p resistance using these readings. Bob McC Date: Thu=2C 2 May 2013 09:11:41 -0400 Subject: AeroElectric-List: How to test engine ground? From: dcheckoway(at)gmail.com This may seem like a ridiculous question=2C and hopefully I'll end up slapp ing my forehead when I hear the answer...but here goes anyway. I'd like to quantify=2C or at least qualify my engine ground connection. T hat is=2C I have a 2 AWG wire connecting my engine to the ground block on t he firewall. Suffice it to say=2C I have reason to suspect that one of the connections is less than perfect. I have an intermittent issue (probably another thread in the making)=2C and I want to rule out ground as a culprit . =0A =0A When I throw an ohmmeter across=2C of course I see zero ohms. But that onl y tells me the obvious. It would probably read zero even if I had a 24 AWG wire in its place. :-) And what I'm concerned about is that maybe it's r eading zero despite the engine side connection not making good enough conta ct. Probably not=2C but I'd like to rule it out. =0A =0A Is there any way (something a doofus like me could do) to test the quality of this engine ground connection? i.e. when my starter is sucking 200 amps through that straw=2C I'd like to know if it's truly unimpeded so to speak . =0A =0A Any tips or tricks? Or do we just trust that if the wire is fat enough=2C we *think* our connections are fine=2C the starter cranks and nothing smoke s=2C then life is good enough? Thanks=2C Dan =0A =0A =0A =0A ============0A ============0A ============0A ============0A =0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: How to test engine ground?
From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: May 02, 2013
Dans idea is a good one, but I think he meant misspoke slightly when he said "voltage drop". You want to know the voltage between the engine case and th e NEG battery terminal while cranking, in other words your volt meter is pla ced in parallel with the ground system. Anything more than 1~1-1/2 volts ind icates the ground is not able to drain off the ohm-bugs fast enough and they are having to wait in line to get home :-). Also if you do have a high read ing (high resistance) you can then go point to point on the different termi nals and find the one causing the problem. Tim Sent from my iPad On May 2, 2013, at 7:22 AM, Bob McCallum wro te: > Dan; > > Connect your voltmeter between the battery negative post and the engine ca se/starter housing while cranking and see what the voltage drop is. Very low voltage reading = good ground. significant voltage reading = bad ground . If you also know what current you're drawing you can calculate total loop r esistance using these readings. > > Bob McC > > > Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 09:11:41 -0400 > Subject: AeroElectric-List: How to test engine ground? > From: dcheckoway(at)gmail.com > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > > This may seem like a ridiculous question, and hopefully I'll end up slappi ng my forehead when I hear the answer...but here goes anyway. > > I'd like to quantify, or at least qualify my engine ground connection. Th at is, I have a 2 AWG wire connecting my engine to the ground block on the f irewall. Suffice it to say, I have reason to suspect that one of the connec tions is less than perfect. I have an intermittent issue (probably another t hread in the making), and I want to rule out ground as a culprit. > > When I throw an ohmmeter across, of course I see zero ohms. But that only tells me the obvious. It would probably read zero even if I had a 24 AWG w ire in its place. :-) And what I'm concerned about is that maybe it's read ing zero despite the engine side connection not making good enough contact. Probably not, but I'd like to rule it out. > > Is there any way (something a doofus like me could do) to test the quality of this engine ground connection? i.e. when my starter is sucking 200 amps through that straw, I'd like to know if it's truly unimpeded so to speak. > > Any tips or tricks? Or do we just trust that if the wire is fat enough, w e *think* our connections are fine, the starter cranks and nothing smokes, t hen life is good enough? > > Thanks, > Dan > > > ========== > -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-L ist > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 02, 2013
From: Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: How to test engine ground?
Tim , Bob's use of the term "Voltage Drop" is correct. --- On Thu, 5/2/13, Tim Andres wrote: From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How to test engine ground? Date: Thursday, May 2, 2013, 8:07 AM Dans idea is a good one, but I think he meant misspoke slightly when he sai d "voltage drop". You want to know the voltage between the engine case and the NEG battery terminal while cranking, in other words your volt meter is placed in parallel with the ground system. Anything more than 1~1-1/2 volts indicates the ground is not able to drain off the ohm-bugs fast enough and they are having to wait in line to get home :-). Also if you do have a hig h reading (high resistance) -you can then go point to point on the differ ent terminals and find the one causing the problem.-Tim Sent from my iPad On May 2, 2013, at 7:22 AM, Bob McCallum wr ote: =0A=0A=0ADan; Connect your voltmeter between the battery negative post and the engine cas e/starter housing while cranking and see what the voltage drop is. Very low voltage reading = good ground. significant voltage reading = bad groun d. If you also know what current you're drawing you can calculate total loo p resistance using these readings. Bob McC Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 09:11:41 -0400 Subject: AeroElectric-List: How to test engine ground? From: dcheckoway(at)gmail.com This may seem like a ridiculous question, and hopefully I'll end up slappin g my forehead when I hear the answer...but here goes anyway. I'd like to quantify, or at least qualify my engine ground connection.- T hat is, I have a 2 AWG wire connecting my engine to the ground block on the firewall.- Suffice it to say, I have reason to suspect that one of the c onnections is less than perfect.- I have an intermittent issue (probably another thread in the making), and I want to rule out ground as a culprit. =0A=0A When I throw an ohmmeter across, of course I see zero ohms.- But that onl y tells me the obvious.- It would probably read zero even if I had a 24 A WG wire in its place.- :-)- And what I'm concerned about is that maybe it's reading zero despite the engine side connection not making good enough contact.- Probably not, but I'd like to rule it out. =0A=0A Is there any way (something a doofus like me could do) to test the quality of this engine ground connection?- i.e. when my starter is sucking 200 am ps through that straw, I'd like to know if it's truly unimpeded so to speak . =0A=0A Any tips or tricks?- Or do we just trust that if the wire is fat enough, we *think* our connections are fine, the starter cranks and nothing smokes, then life is good enough? Thanks, Dan =0A=0A=0A=0A-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Aer oElectric-List=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0A="_blank">http://www.matro nics.com/contribution=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A==== =======0Ast">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Li st=0A======================= =============0Acs.com=0A========= ==0Amatronics.com/contribution=0A============= =======================0A=0A=0A ======================0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 02, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: How to test engine ground?
I'd like to quantify, or at least qualify my engine ground connection. That is, I have a 2 AWG wire connecting my engine to the ground block on the firewall. Suffice it to say, I have reason to suspect that one of the connections is less than perfect. I have an intermittent issue (probably another thread in the making), and I want to rule out ground as a culprit. When I throw an ohmmeter across, of course I see zero ohms. But that only tells me the obvious. It would probably read zero even if I had a 24 AWG wire in its place. :-) And what I'm concerned about is that maybe it's reading zero despite the engine side connection not making good enough contact. Probably not, but I'd like to rule it out. Your observation has roots in the ideas we've discussed in the past . . . ideas for quantifying the quality of electrical connections and components with very low resistance. Is there any way (something a doofus like me could do) to test the quality of this engine ground connection? i.e. when my starter is sucking 200 amps through that straw, I'd like to know if it's truly unimpeded so to speak. Any tips or tricks? Or do we just trust that if the wire is fat enough, we *think* our connections are fine, the starter cranks and nothing smokes, then life is good enough? One fact that goes favorably to your question is that a really POOR joint or component will have a LOT of voltage drop with a commensurate concentration of high energy dissipation. For example, a common reason for alternators to be returned to B&C for repair is a burned b-lead terminal that was so loose as to allow arcing and much heat . . . the terminal melted. Some contactor failures present as a valiant effort to maintain useful conductivity but with attendant losses in the one volt or more range. 1 volt x 200 amps is 200 watts . . . dumping that kind of energy into the small area of a degraded contact heats things up rapidly and accelerates the failure. See http://tinyurl.com/qmk6gm Thanks, Dan At 09:22 AM 5/2/2013, you wrote: Dan; Connect your voltmeter between the battery negative post and the engine case/starter housing while cranking and see what the voltage drop is. Very low voltage reading = good ground. significant voltage reading = bad ground. If you also know what current you're drawing you can calculate total loop resistance using these readings. Bob McC This is a good beginning . . . unfortunately, starters make very poor loads for the purpose of conducting diagnostics. Starter current is directly related to load . . . which varies wildly as the engine rotates through cylinder compression cycles. Taking a reading from a digital display watching voltage drops generated by a starter motor is difficult if not impossible. An analog meter will be a little better but not by much. Measuring voltage drop across various portions of the power loop under known load is fundamental to the low-ohms adapter hardware and articles offered on the website. The low-ohms adapter illustrated offers a maximum of 1 amp excitation current. A bit low for measuring starter circuit drops with commonly available instrumentation. One would LIKE to excite a path under analysis with a steady 10 or even 100 amps. This isn't as hard as it might seem. The folks over at Harbor Freight offer this carbon pile load battery tester which is capable of developing a reasonably steady state load at 200 amps or more. Emacs! To use this device as a circuit quality tester, you need to wire it to your airplane such that it REPLACES the starter as a load on the system. This is BEST accomplished by adding short test-pigtails to the ship's wiring such that the 'test clamps' do not connect to the airplane's wiring. If these 'slip' or fail to make good contact throughout the test effort, they might arc and damage parts of the airplane. The BEST way to make these connections is to cut the clips off the test cables leaving about a 6' pigtail on the clip. Install ring terminals that can be used to bolt the cable back together later thus restoring the original functionality of the tester. With the clips 'unbolted' you can attach tester wires to the crankcase and the starter power terminal. For this test, remove the jumper on the starter's pinion gear engagement solenoid to disable the starter. You might also wish to fabricate a hand held 'pickle switch' to energize the ship's starter contactor. The lead wires for this piece of equipment needs to be long enough so that you can control the load from any place you're observing your voltmeter. Now, you may need to enlist the help of someone to 'manage the load' . . . tell your assistant to crank the load knob up to achieve the desired test current, 100A is probably enough. With a little practice, you can easily hold a test current to within 5 amps or so. Now, as you probe various portions of the (+) or (-) starter circuit with a voltmeter, you can hit the system with a test load likely to produce useful readings for voltage drop on your plain-vanilla multimeter . . . either digital or analog. Most off-the-shelf meters have a 200 mV full scale reading. With voltmeter and pickle-switch in hand, you can explore the cranking circuit in its entirety. Any portion of the circuit with compromised integrity will probably manifest with rather striking voltage drop. Your starter contactor is an intermittent duty device; you want to make the readings rather quickly. One of the future AEC products being considered is a processor based integrator adapter for a digital voltmeter. The device would have two inputs: one for voltage drop, the other for battery voltage. A very rapid sampling of current (voltage drop) compared with excitation voltage (battery terminal voltage) would be evaluated and integrated over time such that a technician could analyze system integrity using the engine's starter as a load. In the mean time, you can modify the HF battery tester into a steady-state load that will yield very useful data for evaluating the integrity of your system's fat wire circuits. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 02, 2013
Subject: Re: How to test engine ground?
From: Dan Checkoway <dcheckoway(at)gmail.com>
Thanks guys, that makes total sense...will give it a shot! (sound of hand slapping forehead) Dan On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Jeff Luckey wrote: > Tim , Bob's use of the term "Voltage Drop" is correct. > > > --- On *Thu, 5/2/13, Tim Andres * wrote: > > > From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How to test engine ground? > To: "aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com" > Date: Thursday, May 2, 2013, 8:07 AM > > Dans idea is a good one, but I think he meant misspoke slightly when he > said "voltage drop". You want to know the voltage between the engine case > and the NEG battery terminal while cranking, in other words your volt meter > is placed in parallel with the ground system. Anything more than 1~1-1/2 > volts indicates the ground is not able to drain off the ohm-bugs fast > enough and they are having to wait in line to get home :-). Also if you do > have a high reading (high resistance) you can then go point to point on > the different terminals and find the one causing the problem. > Tim > > Sent from my iPad > > On May 2, 2013, at 7:22 AM, Bob McCallum http://mc/compose?to=robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>> > wrote: > > *Dan; > > Connect your voltmeter between the battery negative post and the engine > case/starter housing while cranking and see what the voltage drop is. Very > low voltage reading = good ground. significant voltage reading = bad > ground. If you also know what current you're drawing you can calculate > total loop resistance using these readings. > > Bob McC > * > > ------------------------------ > Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 09:11:41 -0400 > Subject: AeroElectric-List: How to test engine ground? > From: dcheckoway@gmail.com <http://mc/compose?to=dcheckoway@gmail.com> > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com<http://mc/compose?to=aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> > > This may seem like a ridiculous question, and hopefully I'll end up > slapping my forehead when I hear the answer...but here goes anyway. > > I'd like to quantify, or at least qualify my engine ground connection. > That is, I have a 2 AWG wire connecting my engine to the ground block on > the firewall. Suffice it to say, I have reason to suspect that one of the > connections is less than perfect. I have an intermittent issue (probably > another thread in the making), and I want to rule out ground as a culprit. > > When I throw an ohmmeter across, of course I see zero ohms. But that only > tells me the obvious. It would probably read zero even if I had a 24 AWG > wire in its place. :-) And what I'm concerned about is that maybe it's > reading zero despite the engine side connection not making good enough > contact. Probably not, but I'd like to rule it out. > > Is there any way (something a doofus like me could do) to test the quality > of this engine ground connection? i.e. when my starter is sucking 200 amps > through that straw, I'd like to know if it's truly unimpeded so to speak. > > Any tips or tricks? Or do we just trust that if the wire is fat enough, > we *think* our connections are fine, the starter cranks and nothing smokes, > then life is good enough? > > Thanks, > Dan > > * > > -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > * > > * > > ================================== > st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ===================================cs.com > ===================================matronics.com/contribution > ========= > * > > * > > ank" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://wt; http://www.matronics.com/contrib============== > <http://forums.matronics.co=>* > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: How to test engine ground?
Date: May 02, 2013
Key words in Bob's answer are "post" and "starter housing"; where the test instrument probes for voltage connection must be made. Don't test at any point on the cable(s). You want the test for loss to include all of the cable-to-terminal connections. There could be corrosion, oxidation, looseness in those cable joints that are invisible, but, will show up in the test Bob outlines. If a voltage (loss) is found in that pathway somewhere, then, you can switch your test leads and march down the cable length to track down where the loss, cable resistance, is located and fix it. ....Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob McCallum To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 7:22 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: How to test engine ground? Dan; Connect your voltmeter between the battery negative post and the engine case/starter housing while cranking and see what the voltage drop is. Very low voltage reading = good ground. significant voltage reading = bad ground. If you also know what current you're drawing you can calculate total loop resistance using these readings. Bob McC ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 09:11:41 -0400 Subject: AeroElectric-List: How to test engine ground? From: dcheckoway(at)gmail.com To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com This may seem like a ridiculous question, and hopefully I'll end up slapping my forehead when I hear the answer...but here goes anyway. I'd like to quantify, or at least qualify my engine ground connection. That is, I have a 2 AWG wire connecting my engine to the ground block on the firewall. Suffice it to say, I have reason to suspect that one of the connections is less than perfect. I have an intermittent issue (probably another thread in the making), and I want to rule out ground as a culprit. When I throw an ohmmeter across, of course I see zero ohms. But that only tells me the obvious. It would probably read zero even if I had a 24 AWG wire in its place. :-) And what I'm concerned about is that maybe it's reading zero despite the engine side connection not making good enough contact. Probably not, but I'd like to rule it out. Is there any way (something a doofus like me could do) to test the quality of this engine ground connection? i.e. when my starter is sucking 200 amps through that straw, I'd like to know if it's truly unimpeded so to speak. Any tips or tricks? Or do we just trust that if the wire is fat enough, we *think* our connections are fine, the starter cranks and nothing smokes, then life is good enough? Thanks, Dan -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://forums.matronics.com ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 02, 2013
Subject: Re: How to test engine ground?
From: Dan Checkoway <dcheckoway(at)gmail.com>
Oops, replied just before Bob's reply came in...I appreciate the advice about using the load tester. Thanks again, and TIA for any replies that come in after this! On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > I'd like to quantify, or at least qualify my engine ground connection. > That is, I have a 2 AWG wire connecting my engine to the ground block on > the firewall. Suffice it to say, I have reason to suspect that one of the > connections is less than perfect. I have an intermittent issue (probably > another thread in the making), and I want to rule out ground as a culprit. > > When I throw an ohmmeter across, of course I see zero ohms. But that only > tells me the obvious. It would probably read zero even if I had a 24 AWG > wire in its place. :-) And what I'm concerned about is that maybe it's > reading zero despite the engine side connection not making good enough > contact. Probably not, but I'd like to rule it out. > > *Your observation has roots in the ideas we've discussed in the past . . > . ideas for quantifying the quality of electrical connections and > components with very low resistance. > > * > Is there any way (something a doofus like me could do) to test the quality > of this engine ground connection? i.e. when my starter is sucking 200 amps > through that straw, I'd like to know if it's truly unimpeded so to speak. > > Any tips or tricks? Or do we just trust that if the wire is fat enough, > we *think* our connections are fine, the starter cranks and nothing smokes, > then life is good enough? > > *One fact that goes favorably to your question is that a really POOR > joint or component will have a LOT of voltage drop with a commensurate > concentration of high energy dissipation. For example, a common reason for > alternators to be returned to B&C for repair is a burned b-lead terminal > that was so loose as to allow arcing and much heat . . . the terminal > melted. Some contactor failures present as a valiant effort to maintain > useful conductivity but with attendant losses in the one volt or more > range. 1 volt x 200 amps is 200 watts . . . dumping that kind of energy > into the small area of a degraded contact heats things up rapidly and > accelerates the failure. See http://tinyurl.com/qmk6gm > > > * Thanks, > Dan > > > At 09:22 AM 5/2/2013, you wrote: > Dan; > > Connect your voltmeter between the battery negative post and the engine > case/starter housing while cranking and see what the voltage drop is. Very > low voltage reading = good ground. significant voltage reading = bad > ground. If you also know what current you're drawing you can calculate > total loop resistance using these readings. > > Bob McC > > *This is a good beginning . . . unfortunately, starters make very poor > loads for the purpose of conducting diagnostics. Starter current is > directly related to load . . . which varies wildly as the engine rotates > through cylinder compression cycles. Taking a reading from a digital > display watching voltage drops generated by a starter motor is difficult if > not impossible. An analog meter will be a little better but not by much. > Measuring voltage drop across various portions of the power loop under > known load is fundamental to the low-ohms adapter hardware and articles > offered on the website. The low-ohms adapter illustrated offers a maximum > of 1 amp excitation current. A bit low for measuring starter circuit drops > with commonly available instrumentation. One would LIKE to excite a path > under analysis with a steady 10 or even 100 amps. This isn't as hard as it > might seem. > > **The folks over at Harbor Freight offer this carbon pile load battery > tester which is capable of developing a reasonably steady state load at 200 > amps or more. > > * [image: Emacs!] *To use this device as a circuit quality tester, you > need to wire it to your airplane such that it REPLACES the starter as a > load on the system. This is BEST accomplished by adding short test-pigtails > to the ship's wiring such that the 'test clamps' do not connect to the > airplane's wiring. If these 'slip' or fail to make good contact throughout > the test effort, they might arc and damage parts of the airplane. The BEST > way to make these connections is to cut the clips off the test cables > leaving about a 6' pigtail on the clip. Install ring terminals that can be > used to bolt the cable back together later thus restoring the original > functionality of the tester. With the clips 'unbolted' you can attach > tester wires to the crankcase and the starter power terminal. For this > test, remove the jumper on the starter's pinion gear engagement solenoid to > disable the starter. You might also wish to fabricate a hand held 'pickle > switch' to energize the ship's starter contactor. The lead wires for this > piece of equipment needs to be long enough so that you can control the load > from any place you're observing your voltmeter. > > **Now, you may need to enlist the help of someone to 'manage the load' . > . . tell your assistant to crank the load knob up to achieve the desired > test current, 100A is probably enough. With a little practice, you can > easily hold a test current to within 5 amps or so. > > **Now, as you probe various portions of the (+) or (-) starter circuit > with a voltmeter, you can hit the system with a test load likely to produce > useful readings for voltage drop on your plain-vanilla multimeter . . . > either digital or analog. Most off-the-shelf meters have a 200 mV full > scale reading. With voltmeter and pickle-switch in hand, you can explore > the cranking circuit in its entirety. Any portion of the circuit with > compromised integrity will probably manifest with rather striking voltage > drop. Your starter contactor is an intermittent duty device; you want to > make the readings rather quickly. > > **One of the future AEC products being considered is a processor based > integrator adapter for a digital voltmeter. The device would have two > inputs: one for voltage drop, the other for battery voltage. A very rapid > sampling of current (voltage drop) compared with excitation voltage > (battery terminal voltage) would be evaluated and integrated over time such > that a technician could analyze system integrity using the engine's starter > as a load. > **In the mean time, you can modify the HF battery tester into a > steady-state load that will yield very useful data for evaluating the > integrity of your system's fat wire circuits. > > **Bob . . . * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mark Wesson" <Mark(at)wessonair.com>
Subject: How to test engine ground?
Date: May 02, 2013
I agree with everything said, however. Before reading anyone else's post my check would have been to check the voltage at the starter load stud and starter case ground while starting. If you have a good ground and positive cable your voltage drop will be minimal. (Sorry I don't know what the baseline for good would be) You could then take a jumper cable and run from the battery negative and starter case and do the check again to compare the two. If the drop is less then the jumper cable made a better ground. If the same then your ground system works as well. With a 12.8v battery I would expect somewhere around 10 - 11 volts during starting. I would assume somewhere less than that could mean that one of the cables/connections is deficient. Mark Wesson _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Checkoway Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 12:00 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How to test engine ground? Thanks guys, that makes total sense...will give it a shot! (sound of hand slapping forehead) Dan On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Jeff Luckey wrote: Tim , Bob's use of the term "Voltage Drop" is correct. --- On Thu, 5/2/13, Tim Andres wrote: From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How to test engine ground? Date: Thursday, May 2, 2013, 8:07 AM Dans idea is a good one, but I think he meant misspoke slightly when he said "voltage drop". You want to know the voltage between the engine case and the NEG battery terminal while cranking, in other words your volt meter is placed in parallel with the ground system. Anything more than 1~1-1/2 volts indicates the ground is not able to drain off the ohm-bugs fast enough and they are having to wait in line to get home :-). Also if you do have a high reading (high resistance) you can then go point to point on the different terminals and find the one causing the problem. Tim Sent from my iPad On May 2, 2013, at 7:22 AM, Bob McCallum http://mc/compose?to=robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca> > wrote: Dan; Connect your voltmeter between the battery negative post and the engine case/starter housing while cranking and see what the voltage drop is. Very low voltage reading = good ground. significant voltage reading = bad ground. If you also know what current you're drawing you can calculate total loop resistance using these readings. Bob McC _____ Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 09:11:41 -0400 Subject: AeroElectric-List: How to test engine ground? From: dcheckoway@gmail.com <http://mc/compose?to=dcheckoway@gmail.com> <http://mc/compose?to=aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> This may seem like a ridiculous question, and hopefully I'll end up slapping my forehead when I hear the answer...but here goes anyway. I'd like to quantify, or at least qualify my engine ground connection. That is, I have a 2 AWG wire connecting my engine to the ground block on the firewall. Suffice it to say, I have reason to suspect that one of the connections is less than perfect. I have an intermittent issue (probably another thread in the making), and I want to rule out ground as a culprit. When I throw an ohmmeter across, of course I see zero ohms. But that only tells me the obvious. It would probably read zero even if I had a 24 AWG wire in its place. :-) And what I'm concerned about is that maybe it's reading zero despite the engine side connection not making good enough contact. Probably not, but I'd like to rule it out. Is there any way (something a doofus like me could do) to test the quality of this engine ground connection? i.e. when my starter is sucking 200 amps through that straw, I'd like to know if it's truly unimpeded so to speak. Any tips or tricks? Or do we just trust that if the wire is fat enough, we *think* our connections are fine, the starter cranks and nothing smokes, then life is good enough? Thanks, Dan -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://forums.matronics.com ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========= st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ========= cs.com ========= matronics.com/contribution ========= ank" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://wt; http://www.matronics.com/contrib============== <http://forums.matronics.co=> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: How to test engine ground?
From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: May 02, 2013
Your right, and apologies to Bob, I just thought it might be a confusing te rm, since what he's looking for is a voltage increase from zero. Tim Sent from my iPad On May 2, 2013, at 8:27 AM, Jeff Luckey wrote: > > Tim , Bob's use of the term "Voltage Drop" is correct. > > > --- On Thu, 5/2/13, Tim Andres wrote: > > From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How to test engine ground? > To: "aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com" > Date: Thursday, May 2, 2013, 8:07 AM > > Dans idea is a good one, but I think he meant misspoke slightly when he sa id "voltage drop". You want to know the voltage between the engine case and t he NEG battery terminal while cranking, in other words your volt meter is pl aced in parallel with the ground system. Anything more than 1~1-1/2 volts in dicates the ground is not able to drain off the ohm-bugs fast enough and the y are having to wait in line to get home :-). Also if you do have a high rea ding (high resistance) you can then go point to point on the different term inals and find the one causing the problem. > Tim > > Sent from my iPad > > On May 2, 2013, at 7:22 AM, Bob McCallum w rote: > >> Dan; >> >> Connect your voltmeter between the battery negative post and the engine c ase/starter housing while cranking and see what the voltage drop is. Very lo w voltage reading = good ground. significant voltage reading = bad groun d. If you also know what current you're drawing you can calculate total loop resistance using these readings. >> >> Bob McC >> >> >> Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 09:11:41 -0400 >> Subject: AeroElectric-List: How to test engine ground? >> From: dcheckoway(at)gmail.com >> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >> >> This may seem like a ridiculous question, and hopefully I'll end up slapp ing my forehead when I hear the answer...but here goes anyway. >> >> I'd like to quantify, or at least qualify my engine ground connection. T hat is, I have a 2 AWG wire connecting my engine to the ground block on the f irewall. Suffice it to say, I have reason to suspect that one of the connec tions is less than perfect. I have an intermittent issue (probably another t hread in the making), and I want to rule out ground as a culprit. >> >> When I throw an ohmmeter across, of course I see zero ohms. But that onl y tells me the obvious. It would probably read zero even if I had a 24 AWG w ire in its place. :-) And what I'm concerned about is that maybe it's read ing zero despite the engine side connection not making good enough contact. Probably not, but I'd like to rule it out. >> >> Is there any way (something a doofus like me could do) to test the qualit y of this engine ground connection? i.e. when my starter is sucking 200 amp s through that straw, I'd like to know if it's truly unimpeded so to speak. >> >> Any tips or tricks? Or do we just trust that if the wire is fat enough, w e *think* our connections are fine, the starter cranks and nothing smokes, t hen life is good enough? >> >> Thanks, >> Dan >> >> >> -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric- List >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> >> >> ========================= ========= >> st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ========================= ========= >> cs.com >> ========================= ========= >> matronics.com/contribution >> ========= >> > > > ank" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http:// wt; http://www.matronics.com/contrib============== > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 02, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Call for cover photos . . .
The AeroElectric Connection is being updated for Revision 13. This will be a complete re-write/re-formatting activity for all chapters. The cover of R12 was graced with a picture of an exemplary demonstration of the OBAM aviation arts. I'm looking for a cover photo for R13. Just like last time, AeroElectric List members will pick the winner. I'm accepting nominations to publish on the website. I'm thinking we'll do a two-stage run-off to (1) select the top five choices from the field and (2) select the winner from the top five. In case of a tie, Dr. Dee will be the tie-breaker. The ball is in your court folks . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 02, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Radio interference
At 07:25 AM 5/2/2013, you wrote: > > >Thanks for the response Bob, >I had to wait until I flew again. >I am flying with twin Dynon Skyviews, as I turn each off, the noise >progressively reduces. >The frequency of the noise increases with the speed of the engine. >I have a common ground on the firewall that everything is connected to. Hmmmm . . . Do the Dynon units have audio outputs for annunciation/warning signals? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Radio interference
From: "robintaylor" <robintaylor(at)airteccc.co.uk>
Date: May 02, 2013
Yes, the Dynons do have an audio output. Thanks, Robin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399896#399896 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 03, 2013
Subject: Re: Call for cover photos . . .
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
Bob, do you have a deadline in mind? On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 5:14 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > The AeroElectric Connection is being updated for > Revision 13. This will be a complete re-write/re-formatting > activity for all chapters. > > The cover of R12 was graced with a picture of an > exemplary demonstration of the OBAM aviation > arts. I'm looking for a cover photo for R13. > > Just like last time, AeroElectric List members > will pick the winner. I'm accepting nominations > to publish on the website. I'm thinking we'll do > a two-stage run-off to (1) select the top five choices > from the field and (2) select the winner from the > top five. > > In case of a tie, Dr. Dee will be the tie-breaker. > The ball is in your court folks . . . > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 03, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Radio interference
At 12:46 AM 5/3/2013, you wrote: > > >Yes, the Dynons do have an audio output. >Thanks, >Robin Okay, the first experiment is to disconnect these two signal sources and record the effect on the noise. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 03, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Call for cover photos . . .
At 08:04 AM 5/3/2013, you wrote: > >Bob, do you have a deadline in mind? It's a few months out. I'm down to about 200 books out of the 2000 printed in 2009. If anyone had a particular aircraft in mind and thought they would go get some nice air-to-air photos, there is time for that kind of effort. Thanks for asking! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 03, 2013
Subject: Re: How to test engine ground?
From: GLEN MATEJCEK <fly4grins(at)gmail.com>
Hi Dan- There is another highly technical way to test the thermal side of your (potential) problem: Leave the ignition off and cowl opened, crank for a while, and see if your ground strap connections get warm or hot to the touch. That's not extremely scientific, but if one end stays near ambient and the other raises blisters, you will have localized the problem. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: How to test engine ground?
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: May 04, 2013
Big conductors and low resistances are usually measured by the "voltage drop method at a specific current". But just feeling the ground strap to see if it gets hot is a great way to go. Note: There are temperature indicating materials available from: http://www.omega.com which are easy to apply to e.g. high-current lugs. Color change=loose or failing connector. BTW: More stuff to worry about in the middle of the night....bad things happen when ground currents pass through bearings. Sometimes the designer catches these things...sometimes they don't. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399940#399940 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 04, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: How to test engine ground?
At 07:57 AM 5/4/2013, you wrote: > >Big conductors and low resistances are usually measured by the >"voltage drop method at a specific current". But just feeling the >ground strap to see if it gets hot is a great way to go. True. But placing the touchy-feely technique into context, I rather imagine that any component that exhibits an extra-ordinary rise in temperature after a few seconds under load is on the verge of driving over the cliff of precipitous failure. For example, I would think that dissipation local to the 'touch point' must toss some goodly watts heat. Consider the 1' foot wire segment between battery(+) and the contactor in the figure below. 0.00025 ohms x 200A = 50 millivolts of drop. 50mV x 200A is 10 watts. A 10 second 'cranking event' may produce detectable rise but would you be able to tell if the rise were say TWICE the normal amount? The 200 millivolt drops I hypothesized for each contactor is a total for up to 6 metallic joints in the path that includes wire to terminal, terminal to contact post, contact to armature, armature to contact, contact post to terminal and terminal to wire. EACH of those joints is very low in resistance but NOT zero. The drops in components and joints can all add up to a significant total but no single joint produces a predominantly obvious drop. I think I once suggested that there's no such thing as a "12v starter". I made that assertion based on a hypothetical not unlike that pictured below. Emacs! This figure illustrates the reasoning behind the notion for measuring a battery's ability to deliver a current to a terminal voltage on the order of 9 volts. We like to see numbers in the 400+ amps range. This demonstrates that with a 200 amp load, voltage drop within the battery will be about half thus leaving us with 1 to 1.5 volts of 'head room' to toss off in cranking circuit components and still get 8-9 volts to the starter. If one observes a change in cranking performance the prime suspect will be the battery. It's either not fully charged or nearing end of life. Look at the battery voltage under load first. The starter is a second order suspect. Measure its terminal voltage under load. If 'high', then for what ever reason, it's drawing less than normal current (high internal resistance) and is probably self destructing. If the voltage is low, then start looking at the remainder of the cranking loop voltage drops. There's a lot of opportunity for loop resistances to go up with the most likely prospects being contactors. Any contactor who's voltage drop has risen so much as to affect cranking performance will probably be smelling bad but might not demonstrate a marked temperature rise detectable by feeling the outside surface of the enclosure. This narration is the foundation for the starter circuit analyzer. An 8-channel, a/d complimented with data integration software could take a 10 second look at a cranking event and instantly highlight the probable culprit for poor starter performance. The probability of identifying a 'warmer than usual' component in a suite of components that warms up in normal situations is somewhat problematic. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 04, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: How to test engine ground?
> >BTW: More stuff to worry about in the middle of the night....bad >things happen when ground currents pass through bearings. Sometimes >the designer catches these things...sometimes they don't. Yeah. Some years back we discovered root cause of poor bearing life on starter-generators. It seems that the steel shaft down through the center, while thought to be in an area of "zero net flux" was "excited" with microvolts of induced EMF shorted out by micro-ohms of starter frame through the bearings at each end. In retrospect, I'm not sure that the frame of the starter-gen didn't see similar inducements. A mysterious stress on bearing life went away with incorporation of ceramic bearings or bearing liners. Just because some stimulus is 'tiny' does not necessarily negate its effects. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: How to test engine ground?
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: May 04, 2013
Is this bearing wear a result of microscopic arcing and pitting as the balls roll in their races, making and breaking electrical contact? Eric On May 4, 2013, at 1:36 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > Yeah. Some years back we discovered root cause of poor bearing life on starter-generators. It seems that the steel shaft down through the center, while thought to be in an area of "zero net flux" was "excited" with microvolts of induced EMF shorted out by micro-ohms of starter frame through the bearings at each end. In retrospect, I'm not sure that the frame of the starter-gen didn't see similar inducements. > > A mysterious stress on bearing life went away with incorporation of ceramic bearings or bearing liners. Just because some stimulus is 'tiny' does not necessarily negate its effects. > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 04, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: How to test engine ground?
At 12:57 PM 5/4/2013, you wrote: > >Is this bearing wear a result of microscopic arcing and pitting as >the balls roll in their races, making and breaking electrical contact? Yeah . . . sort of. I'm not so sure that 'arcing' takes place so much as a kind of 'accelerated corrosion.' We're talking VERY tiny voltages at SIGNIFICANT currents. The area of contact between a spherical ball and its races is small and the pressures are huge. Hence the need for both harness and smoothness. An ionizing current flow across the tiny 'joint' cannot go unnoticed. Where the local magnetic fields are large and fluctuating, there is a coupling of energy between conductors. Making those conductors massive produces a potential for significant currents to flow at the tiniest of voltages. That once smooth surface begins to chip away as the little electron-hammers go to work on it. Those shafts run at 7 to 10,000 rpm and pretty high temperatures. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: How to test engine ground?
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: May 04, 2013
> Is this bearing wear a result of microscopic arcing and pitting as the balls roll in their races, making and breaking electrical contact? Maybe micro-welding more than corrosion. As I said...stuff to worry about in the middle of the night. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399958#399958 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 04, 2013
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: How to test engine ground?
Yes, Eric, it is due to making and breaking of metal surfaces as the bearin gs roll around.- Here is a good article on this phenomenon:=0A=0A-- - http://www.ien.com/article/insulating-ball-bearings/7642=0A=0A=0AKeep i n mind that grease and oil are not good conductors and therefore will intro duce resistance within the bearing.- As arcing occurs, it pits the metal surface areas as well as degrades the lubricants.- From thereon, it's a s nowball effect.=0A=0A-=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A________________________ ________=0A From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>=0ATo: "aeroelectric-list@ma tronics.com" =0ASent: Saturday, May 4, 20 13 1:57 PM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: How to test engine ground? .com>=0A=0AIs this bearing wear a result of microscopic arcing and pitting as the balls roll in their races, making and breaking electrical contact? =0A=0AEric=0A=0A=0AOn May 4, 2013, at 1:36 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:=0A> =0A> Yeah. Some years back we disc overed root cause of poor bearing life on starter-generators. It seems that the steel shaft down through the center, while thought to be in an area of "zero net flux" was "excited" with microvolts of induced EMF shorted out b y micro-ohms of starter frame through the bearings at each end. In retrospe ct, I'm not sure that the frame of the starter-gen didn't see similar induc ements.=0A> =0A> A mysterious stress on bearing life went away with incorpo ration of ceramic bearings or bearing liners. Just because some stimulus is 'tiny' does not necessarily negate its effects.=0A> =0A>- Bob . . .=0A =========================0A =================== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 05, 2013
Subject: radio noise
From: bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
i have about 65 hrs on my dakota hawk / 3300 jab. up until a couple hrs. ago my radio had no unwanted noise. but no more. while taxiing or in flight at rpm below about 2000 the radio is quiet. at 2800 rpm the static is constant. sounds like you are on an fm frequency with no station. there is no whine or change in sound of the noise as rpm increases or decreases. what does happen as rpm is dropped is that the noise becomes more and more intermittant and less frequent until it disappears.the noise disappears when i receive a transmission. as i have a wood and cloth plane i have a forest of tabs for all my ground wires. coming home from the airport i was thinking the rpm where the noise starts is close to where the alternator kicks in. noise pitch is not related to rpm though. any ideas why this would just start and what may be the cause? any ideas appreciated. bob noffs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 05, 2013
From: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: radio noise
Sounds like you're breaking squelch. Try adjusting it up a bit. Ed On 5/5/2013 4:47 PM, bob noffs wrote: > i have about 65 hrs on my dakota hawk / 3300 jab. up until a couple > hrs. ago my radio had no unwanted noise. but no more. > while taxiing or in flight at rpm below about 2000 the radio is > quiet. at 2800 rpm the static is constant. sounds like you are on an > fm frequency with no station. there is no whine or change in sound of > the noise as rpm increases or decreases. what does happen as rpm is > dropped is that the noise becomes more and more intermittant and less > frequent until it disappears.the noise disappears when i receive a > transmission. > as i have a wood and cloth plane i have a forest of tabs for all my > ground wires. coming home from the airport i was thinking the rpm > where the noise starts is close to where the alternator kicks in. > noise pitch is not related to rpm though. > any ideas why this would just start and what may be the cause? > any ideas appreciated. > bob noffs > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: radio noise
Date: May 05, 2013
What kind of radio or navigator....?? ....some of them have built-in staged squelch bands and one or more may need sw adjustment if internal set... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Holyoke To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 5:18 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: radio noise Sounds like you're breaking squelch. Try adjusting it up a bit. Ed On 5/5/2013 4:47 PM, bob noffs wrote: i have about 65 hrs on my dakota hawk / 3300 jab. up until a couple hrs. ago my radio had no unwanted noise. but no more. while taxiing or in flight at rpm below about 2000 the radio is quiet. at 2800 rpm the static is constant. sounds like you are on an fm frequency with no station. there is no whine or change in sound of the noise as rpm increases or decreases. what does happen as rpm is dropped is that the noise becomes more and more intermittant and less frequent until it disappears.the noise disappears when i receive a transmission. as i have a wood and cloth plane i have a forest of tabs for all my ground wires. coming home from the airport i was thinking the rpm where the noise starts is close to where the alternator kicks in. noise pitch is not related to rpm though. any ideas why this would just start and what may be the cause? any ideas appreciated. bob noffs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 06, 2013
Subject: Re: radio noise
From: bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
the radio is an icom i200 with an intercom setup. bob noffs On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 7:44 PM, David Lloyd wrote: > ** > What kind of radio or navigator....?? > > ....some of them have built-in staged squelch bands and one or more may > need sw adjustment if internal set... > > ------------------------------ > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Ed Holyoke > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Sent:* Sunday, May 05, 2013 5:18 PM > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: radio noise > > Sounds like you're breaking squelch. Try adjusting it up a bit. > > Ed > > On 5/5/2013 4:47 PM, bob noffs wrote: > > i have about 65 hrs on my dakota hawk / 3300 jab. up until a couple > hrs. ago my radio had no unwanted noise. but no more. > while taxiing or in flight at rpm below about 2000 the radio is quiet. at > 2800 rpm the static is constant. sounds like you are on an fm frequency > with no station. there is no whine or change in sound of the noise as rpm > increases or decreases. what does happen as rpm is dropped is that the > noise becomes more and more intermittant and less frequent until it > disappears.the noise disappears when i receive a transmission. > as i have a wood and cloth plane i have a forest of tabs for all my > ground wires. coming home from the airport i was thinking the rpm where the > noise starts is close to where the alternator kicks in. noise pitch is not > related to rpm though. > any ideas why this would just start and what may be the cause? > any ideas appreciated. > bob noffs > > * > > * > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c* > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 06, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Surplus xponder antenna
Emacs! New old stock surplus to my needs. First offer of $15 takes it. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com>
Subject: Re: Surplus xponder antenna
Date: May 06, 2013
OK: Bob, if it's still available, I'll take it John ----- Original Message ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 5:46 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Surplus xponder antenna New old stock surplus to my needs. First offer of $15 takes it. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 06, 2013
From: Joel Ventura <ventura(at)brandeis.edu>
Subject: Re: Surplus xponder antenna
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 06, 2013
From: John Bright <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Surplus xponder antenna
I take it.=0A=0A-=0AJohn Bright=0A=0A=0A>________________________________ =0A> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>=0A>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0A>Sent: Monday, May 6, 2013 12:46 PM=0A> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Surplus xponder antenna=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A> =0A> =0A>New old stock surplus to my needs. First=0A>offer of $15 takes it.=0A> =0A>=0A>- Bob . . .=0A>=0A> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 06, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Surplus xponder antenna
At 12:03 PM 5/6/2013, you wrote: >OK: Bob, if it's still available, I'll take it > Your response got here first. You got it. I've invoiced you on PayPal. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 06, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Surplus xponder antenna (SOLD)
At 11:46 AM 5/6/2013, you wrote: >Emacs! > > >SOLD - Thanks for the responses guys! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 06, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Question
At 01:24 PM 5/6/2013, you wrote: >Hello Bob, > >I have a quick question- > >Why is it that a radio like a Garmin SL-30 >Nav/Com and a marker beacon like a PS >Engineering model, have two separate ground >wires each, i.e. one for the power ground and >one for the audio ground ' yet those wires end >up connecting at the same grounding point. > >I am curious as to why there has to be two wires >from each box that end up at the same grounding >point, instead of the manufacturer wiring these >two grounds up together internally in the >device, and then only using one ground wire? > >Many thanks, Not sure what you're referring to. Here's one of serveral wiring diagrams gleaned from an SL-30 installation manual: Emacs! In this case, I suspect that pins 13, 7 and 9 are all common inside the SL-30 but only pin 9 is used for attachment to ship's power ground. Pins 13 and 7 become a quasi-single point ground for the audio system as it relates to the SL-30. Are there other wiring diagrams that offer a more confusing picture? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Large fuselink
From: Andy Plunkett <awplunkett(at)glasairproject.com>
Date: May 07, 2013
I own a Glastar, built by someone else, that has the battery behind the baggage bulkhead. The builder ran 14awg wires connected directly to the battery and powering the Electroair ignition and fuel injection boost pump. I need to add a fuse link to these wires. Can I build the links using the same method as described in the document located in Bobs archives, as long as I size them up to the appropriate rating? I already have the fiberglass tubing material leftover from my Glasair project. I figured I could just use an 18awg wire for the link. Andy Plunkett Glasair N466DM (sold) Glastar N34ND (rebuilding panel) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 07, 2013
From: Linda Walker <l.p(at)talk21.com>
Subject: Intermittent power supply issue
I have a Long-EZ with the Z13 11/01 architecture. It has been running fine for 5 years but now an intermittent power supply i ssue has arisen. The Garmin 530 and GTX 330 run off the endurance bus and have been going of fline recently: the transponder more frequently but the 530 nav/com/gps has the "power off" screen come up and then power seems to reestablish itself and then all is fine with the radio for a while. The VMS1000 engine instrumentation display also comes off this bus and the volt sense has recently been showing 12.7 to 13.7 volts. Bypassing the bridge rectifier now has the voltage showing 15.1 to 15.4 vol ts and then flashes the volts display. I am about to go through the LR3C troubleshooting guide, but wondered if an yone has any bright ideas as to what may be occurring? Patrick Elliott, England. G-LGEZ. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Garmin GNS430 goes into setup mode - screen with colored
boxes
From: Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 07, 2013
Today I resoldered one of the wires on my GNS430 connector (it was the RS232 Out 1 wire which had mistakenly been connected to the wrong pin, which is w hy my GNS was not communicating with my Trio ProPilot) and when I put everyt hing back and powered up the GNS430, I got a strange startup screen with lot s of concentric colored boxes. The unit appears to startup in SETUP mode be cause when I turn the right dial I get the other setup screens. But no matte r how many times I try it will not startup normally. I have posted some pics to give you an idea of what I see. The screen that i ntrigues me is the Main Diagnostics screen which appears to have "Unrecorded exceptions", whatever that means. Does anyone know what this behavior indicates? Is it broken in some way? Can someone who has a GNS430 start it up in setup mode (press the ENT button wh ile turning it on) and tell me if their Main Exceptions screen looks like mi ne? TIA for your help! Sacha ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 07, 2013
Subject: radio noise
From: bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
a few days ago i posted about my noise problem and a few said it sounded like squelch.i have an icom i200 and as far as i can tell there is no way to adjust squelch. anyone know anything about this radio? is there an internal adj.? bob noffs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 07, 2013
From: "Ken Lehman" <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: radio noise
My i200 has a couple of adjustment screws on the circuit board if you open the case. You want the one labelled "squelch". Mine also needed tweaking for satisfactory operation. Ken > > > a few days ago i posted about my noise problem and a few said it sounded > like squelch.i have an icom i200 and as far as i can tell there is no way > to adjust squelch. anyone know anything about this radio? is there an > internal adj.? bob noffs > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 07, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Large fuselink
At 09:02 AM 5/7/2013, you wrote: > > >I own a Glastar, built by someone else, that has the battery behind >the baggage bulkhead. > >The builder ran 14awg wires connected directly to the battery and >powering the Electroair ignition and fuel injection boost pump. > >I need to add a fuse link to these wires. Can I build the links >using the same method as described in the document located in Bobs >archives, as long as I size them up to the appropriate rating? > >I already have the fiberglass tubing material leftover from my >Glasair project. I figured I could just use an 18awg wire for the link. > Just an inline fuse holder will be fine. Rate the fuses for 2x the max current draw of the ignition systems. https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/WPFH-1s.jpg Do you KNOW what that current level is? 14AWG wire is obscenely oversized for this application. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 08, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Pre-oiler system controls
At 02:24 PM 5/7/2013, you wrote: Bob, I have your book and perused your web-site. I have a simple question concerning controlling a pre-oiler Accusump accumulator and an oil pressure pump with the same switch. Both electric obviously. The Accusump is an oil pressure accumulator plumbed into the high pressure oil system and controlled by an electric on/off valve. Before engine start, you open the valve, the accumulator discharges and the engine is pre-oiled with a squirt of high pressure oil. The valve is left open during flight to provide oil pressure during transient fluctuations. Before engine shutdown, the valve is closed by removing power, trapping oil pressure in the accumulator. This system is on my aircraft and controlled by a simple on/off switch. I am planning on adding an electric oil pressure pump to this system. The pump will receive supply from the engine sump, and pressurize the same feed/return line that the Accusump is connected to. A check valve will prevent high pressure oil inadvertently recirculating back into the sump. The purpose of the pump is two fold: the accumulator tends to bleed down over time, and curious fingers tend to deplete my accumulator (oops, what does this switch do?) I've heard various forms of 'pre oiler systems' over the years. I wondering why you're sacrificing empty weight to carry both the accumulator and the pump. The accumulator is like a battery . . . it's capability is limited by size . . . one shot and it's empty. The pump is like an alternator. As long as it's supplied with power, it's capability to circulate oil is virtually unlimited. What is the advantage to be secured by having both devices on the airplane? You need a source of power to open the accumulator valve -OR- to run the motor. I'm having trouble grasping the value of having both systems on the airplane. My switch control plan is to use a three position switch - off on (on) Off - bottom position - no power to Accusump valve or oil pump. On - middle position - only power to Accusump to open valve. On (momentary) - up position - power to both Accusump valve AND oil pump. Is it possible to wire a switch this way? Yes, you would need to acquire a two-pole, three-position, progressive transfer switch with momentary operation in one position. An exemplar switch is the Honeywell 2TL1-50 switch that can be procured here: http://tinyurl.com/btfd4e9 Here's a link to the specification sheet. http://tinyurl.com/d2vkuvx Obviously wiring is not my strong suit, and I cannot figure out what switch to use and how to wire it. Any help and advise you can give will be greatly appreciated. The progressive transfer mechanism combined with spring loading of full up position provides the functionality your looking for. But I recommend you re-consider burdening your airplane's empty weight with the accumulator which seems to be of limited value when combined with the pump. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 08, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Intermittent power supply issue
At 03:41 PM 5/7/2013, you wrote: >I have a Long-EZ with the Z13 11/01 architecture. >It has been running fine for 5 years but now an intermittent power >supply issue has arisen. >The Garmin 530 and GTX 330 run off the endurance bus and have been >going offline recently: the transponder more frequently but the 530 >nav/com/gps has the "power off" screen come up and then power seems >to reestablish itself and then all is fine with the radio for a while. >The VMS1000 engine instrumentation display also comes off this bus >and the volt sense has recently been showing 12.7 to 13.7 volts. >Bypassing the bridge rectifier now has the voltage showing 15.1 to >15.4 volts and then flashes the volts display. >I am about to go through the LR3C troubleshooting guide, but >wondered if anyone has any bright ideas as to what may be occurring? >Patrick Elliott, England. G-LGEZ. First, a reading over 14.6 on the system is TOO HIGH. Adjust the LR-3 regulator DOWN until a normal main bus voltage of 14.6 is achieved. A bridge rectifier doesn't go 'intermittent' . . . further, closing the alternate feed switch is equivalent to bypassing the rectifier. After re-adjustment of the regulator, see if the intermittent condition goes away with the alternate feedpath switch closed. You're looking for a lose connection of some variety . . . but fix that voltage first. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 08, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: RE: Question
> >So there it is, that 9 and 13 are grounds, >running to the same AMP connector. This is what >I was asking. Why are there 2 independent wires >which end up going to the same AMP connector >with 30 some pins on it that are all grounded together? > >Then in the bottom diagram for a PS Engineering >marker beacon, pin 9 is the power ground and pin >14 is the audio ground. So am I correct in >assuming that they also end up at the same 30 >some pin AMP connector ' since the SL-30 pins >for power ground and audio ground both end up there? I cannot know the reasoning behind any particular design decision unless it is specifically explained in the manufacturer's documents. I can attest to the my notion (shared by some) that many products miss an opportunity to make a device easier to install by making otherwise unneeded pins extra grounds. This gives the installer an opportunity to neatly terminate pigtails for shields on their own pin in the connector. I have generated two widely used, multiple connection grounding products. One is the firewall ground bus sold by B&C, the other is the panel/avionics ground bus offered on my website. There are no specific assignments for where connections are made on these products. My architecture drawings feature ground symbols labeled so as to suggest termination at a specific ground bus . . . but not on any particular pin. I am always pleased to see manufacturer's wiring diagrams that offer dedicated ground pins for all wires needing ground . . . but sometimes, it's simply not possible to have plenty of grounds for all contingencies. There is nothing 'magic' about a proliferation of grounds in any given connector. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Intermittent power supply issue
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 08, 2013
9 times out of 10, electrical problems are caused by bad connections. I suggest taking apart every connection in the circuit, making sure the mating surfaces are clean, tugging on crimped terminals, and then reassembling everything. Depending on the circuit, a bad connection(s) to the voltage regulator sense terminal can cause high voltage or voltage fluctuations. When problems are intermittent, a bad connection is the first suspect. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400152#400152 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: radio noise
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 08, 2013
I agree with the others that it is a squelch problem. On the top my Icom ic-A200 are 3 foil stickers each about 1/2" diameter which cover pot access holes. The A200 top cover is lightly embossed with hard to see labels for each of the 3 holes. The squelch is labeled SQL. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400154#400154 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 08, 2013
Subject: bearing failure resulting from current flow
From: Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com>
This topic was discussed here earlier this week. The following adds to Bob's description of bearing failure due to a small current flow through the bearing. I have no commercial interest in any of the companies mentioned. Chris Stone Preventing Discharge Damage: Conductive Rolling Bearing Greases Wed, 05/08/2013 - 2:23pm Heiko Stache, Manager Business Unit =93 Bearing Technology & Sabine Petri, Product Manager, Kl=C3=BCber Lubrication Get today's manufacturing headlines and news - Sign up now!<http://subscribe.advantagemedia.com/mnet_ods/landing.aspx?cmpid=text adincontent> *Conductive rolling bearing greases provide inexpensive and efficient solutions.* Whether in the plastics, textile or motion control industries, damage caused by electric discharge is a well-known issue, and today it is more prevalent than ever. It primarily affects rolling bearings in machines susceptible to static charging. In many cases, conductive grease made especially for these applications can provide an inexpensive and efficient solution to this problem, while at the same time ensuring optimum rolling bearing lubrication. Static charges may have a variety of causes. In film stretchers, for example, plastic material is conveyed on steel rollers, leading to electrostatic charging. In tumble drier drums, the plastic content of the laundry, such as nylon, may be the cause. Rolling bearings operating under high loads have a particularly high risk of damage, since there is frequently partial direct contact between the rolling elements and the raceways, leading to sudden discharge, not unlike an electric arc. As the metal-to-metal contact is restricted to a very small area, even currents well below 1 ampere can cause the contact points to weld or fuse together. Typical discharge damage is in the form of plates, craters or grooves on the bearing. The cause of the damage is a voltage applied to the bearing, which can be of three different types: - Shaft voltage (AC voltage): the shaft is rotating in an asymmetrical magnetic field and, therefore, induction takes place. - Unipolar voltage (constant or pulsating DC voltage): the shaft is rotating and is itself magnetic, giving rise to an inductive effect. - Extraneous voltage (DC or AC voltage): in this case, the shaft is charged from the outside =93 e.g., from electric control systems, track currents, welding currents or electrostatically, =93 due to proces s media, lubricants or coolants. Craters are the result when surface melting takes place on raceways due to electric potential. Molten metal particles may also be carried off and deposited on the raceway, where they are rolled down. Grooves form when current flows while the rolling elements and the raceways are under load. This causes the rolling elements to vibrate and, over time, typical grooves form on the inner and/or outer ring. Repairing such damage takes a lot of time and money =93 in extreme cases, the bearing as a whole has to be replaced. The severity of the damage depends on a number of factors, such as current intensity, time of exposure, bearing load, speed and lubricant used. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 08, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical
contact At 08:51 AM 3/25/2013, you wrote: Bob, Re: the contactor that we were discussing a week or two ago. I believe that it is the original assembly in a C177B. I removed it yesterday and replaced with a 3 terminal, same as was originally installed, unit and it works perfectly. The junk item went in the mail this AM, so you should have it in a couple of days. It will be interesting to find out what you observe as the failure when you tear it down. Thanks for what you do! Roger Thanks for sending me the carcass. I've disassembled the remains. The failure mode in this case is quite clear and consistent with your narrative for intermittent functionality. The photos at http://tinyurl.com/cp4xkv3 http://tinyurl.com/d95qhst http://tinyurl.com/bwqxm5v http://tinyurl.com/bocgcaa . . . show effects of selective corrosion. The next photo http://tinyurl.com/butbm2m shows that all conduction surfaces are bright and clean having been properly torqued for gas-tightness. External joints on wires brought to the contactor were properly installed and not contributors to this failure. This photo of contactor ring http://tinyurl.com/cm4ncou suggests that the ring was free to rotate as evidenced by the relative uniformity of the oxidation pattern in the contact area. The obverse side of the contactor ring http://tinyurl.com/d8pgygg shows no evidence of localized heating. The c-clip that retains the closure pressure ring shows evidence of localized corrosion. http://tinyurl.com/bu3paoo here we see the opening spring is uniformly rusted. http://tinyurl.com/d6wo24e The rust is finely grained and easily transfers to the touch. The drain hole in the contactor cap is open and clean. The inside surface of the cap http://tinyurl.com/c6fk5kh shows evidence of moisture pooling. The outside surface of the cap http://tinyurl.com/cn8t7rl shows evidence of condensation drip down the outside surface that concentrated as surface wetness. This is a good example of a 'soft' failure. The corrosion patterns suggest mild effects over a very long period of time. Concentrations and locations suggest the contactor had been properly installed with the drip-hole down. The intermittent nature of the malfunction suggests that rust-dust off the spring would fall onto the upper side of the contactor ring and provide a poor to no-conductivity contaminant that would prevent the ring from making good connection with the terminals. That when contact was good, any dust in the gap would fuse to become part of the discoloration on the contactor ring . . . which was free to rotate and bring a less-contaminated area into service. This failure was a very slow progressing event promoted by years of normally deposited condensate. Condensate that would occasionally produce low-point concentrations of moisture on the end of the armature, upper inside surface of the cap, and on the lower outside surface of the cap. Given that the failure was not gross and catastrophic, it appears that everything was functioning to design goals and that the contactor had simply reached the end of service life for the conditions under which it operated. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 08, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: bearing failure resulting from current flow
At 03:52 PM 5/8/2013, you wrote: >This topic was discussed here earlier this week. >=C2 The following adds to Bob's description of >bearing failure due to a small current flow through the bearing. Good data Chris . . . thank you. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sacha" <uuccio(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Garmin GNS430 goes into setup mode - screen with
colored boxes
Date: May 09, 2013
Garmin support says that the unit is booting in Test mode and suggested to double check whether pin 75 of the 4001 connector is grounded... (I hope it is, otherwise i might be in for some repair co$ts)... ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical contact
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: May 09, 2013
I don't agree that this is just normal wear and tear. The Type-70 contactor is unsuited to use in aircraft, and the proof is in the photos. (Good pix Bob!). I don't see any mention of coil suppressors. There should be some and they should be bidirectional zeners (or at least not p/n diodes). Potter and Brumfield, etc. have campaigned for this for years. The reason for coil suppression is that it speeds up opening and minimizes arcing and welding when opening. Better yet, check the data sheet for these contactors and see that they have a maximum ambient of 122 degrees F., and G-sensitive, not sealed, high hold current, poor capability opening under load...then ask yourself why you are using them. They're cheap? Clique and Claque says, "It the stingy man who pays the most." I'd go with using either NO contactors, solid state contactors, or Kilovac EV200 or Gigavac MX-11 or similar. There are lots of good products out there. Hint: Buy EV200's where the leads are too short. It is simple to unscrew the cover and reinstall long leads. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400190#400190 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R. curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical
contact
Date: May 09, 2013
> Thanks for sending me the carcass. I've disassembled the > remains. The failure mode in this case is quite clear > and consistent with your narrative for intermittent > functionality. Bob, Your time and effort Is much appreciated. Along with the analysis of the defect, your explanation of the workings, connections, and why the failure, was quite enlitening. Thanks, Roger -- Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R. curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical
contact
Date: May 09, 2013
The Type-70 contactor is unsuited to use in aircraft, and the proof is in the photos. (Good pix Bob!). Eric, Are you saying that this is NOT the original contactor installed by Cessna Aircraft Corp. in the new, as built aircraft? Roger -- Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 09, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical
contact At 08:30 AM 5/9/2013, you wrote: > >I don't agree that this is just normal wear and tear. The Type-70 >contactor is unsuited to use in aircraft, and the proof is in the >photos. (Good pix Bob!). But Eric, I think we were told that this was the factory installed contactor . . . Given the demonstrated longevity of this part and the fact that it failed gracefully suggests that the contactor not over stressed nor was it mis-applied to tasks beyond design goals of the manufacturer. >I don't see any mention of coil suppressors. There should be some >and they should be bidirectional zeners (or at least not p/n >diodes). Potter and Brumfield, etc. have campaigned for this for >years. The reason for coil suppression is that it speeds up opening >and minimizes arcing and welding when opening. Yes you have complained . . . and I have explained and conducted demonstrations on the bench to (1) show that there IS value for coil suppression with respect to life of the battery master switch and (2) shown that such suppression in the form of plain vanilla rectifiers -OR- zeners has no measurable influence on service life of the contactor itself. These contactors, applied as battery contactors in airplanes, DO NOT MAKE or BREAK heavy loads. As long as you don't drown them in water or oil, their service life is exemplary with respect to their cost. I have further debunked the notion that contacts weld "on opening". I've studied many cases of relay failures for sticking contacts and deduced the "on closure" sticking modes for relays both by analysis of carcasses -AND- laboratory experiment. Failure to close is ALWAYS a function of contact contamination or degradation due to mis-application. I've repeatedly measured the contact spreading velocity of relays and contactors with plain vanilla diode coil suppression, sophisticated coil suppression and NO suppression and found no practical differences. The various modes might affect contact opening DELAY but not the spreading velocity. Go to the bench, get out your 'scope and prove these assertions wrong. This contactor WAS fitted with a plain-vanilla rectifier as a coil spike suppressor. What evidence is visible in the photos that an alternative form of suppression would have made a difference? >Better yet, check the data sheet for these contactors and see that >they have a maximum ambient of 122 degrees F., and G-sensitive, not >sealed, high hold current, poor capability opening under load...then >ask yourself why you are using them. They're cheap? Clique and >Claque says, "It the stingy man who pays the most." What evidence do you see in the photos that suggest this part was thermally abused? What evidence do you see that suggests this contactor failed to function for any reason other than the 'dusting of contact surfaces' with materials detrimental to good contact (I.e. spring rust)? >I'd go with using either NO contactors, solid state contactors, or >Kilovac EV200 or Gigavac MX-11 or similar. There are lots of good >products out there. > >Hint: Buy EV200's where the leads are too short. It is simple to >unscrew the cover and reinstall long leads. An what is the return on investment? There have been hundreds of thousands of airplanes fitted with contactors not unlike the device under discussion. If the airplane is fitted with an e-bus, then contactor failures of any nature have a back-up plan for comfortable termination of flight. Even THIS contactor did not produce an in-flight condition that threatened life, limb or aluminum. Indeed, battery contactors are a maintenance item not unlike tires, switches, light bulbs, batteries, oil, Plexiglas windows, paint and the occasional smoothing of nicks in the prop. If one were to get a prop crafted from say, titanium, perhaps one could dispense with the file. Yes, a $high$ contactor might prove to offer a longer service life but it has zero effect on system reliability. That vulnerability to g-loading is another widely circulated myth having no foundation in physics or practical application. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jan <jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make elec trical
contact
Date: May 09, 2013
Eric, Question regarding EV200 - Would you use the short model that has the 'economizer' built in ? Or the larger (taller) version that has no economizer ? Jan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones Sent: 09 May 2013 14:30 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make electrical contact I don't agree that this is just normal wear and tear. The Type-70 contactor is unsuited to use in aircraft, and the proof is in the photos. (Good pix Bob!). I don't see any mention of coil suppressors. There should be some and they should be bidirectional zeners (or at least not p/n diodes). Potter and Brumfield, etc. have campaigned for this for years. The reason for coil suppression is that it speeds up opening and minimizes arcing and welding when opening. Better yet, check the data sheet for these contactors and see that they have a maximum ambient of 122 degrees F., and G-sensitive, not sealed, high hold current, poor capability opening under load...then ask yourself why you are using them. They're cheap? Clique and Claque says, "It the stingy man who pays the most." I'd go with using either NO contactors, solid state contactors, or Kilovac EV200 or Gigavac MX-11 or similar. There are lots of good products out there. Hint: Buy EV200's where the leads are too short. It is simple to unscrew the cover and reinstall long leads. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400190#400190 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 09, 2013
Subject: Overactive Power Supply
We have a very expensive power supply/battery charger. It's for aircraft use, purchaed from an aircraft vendor, and even has a picture of an airplane on it. http://www.bycansystems.com/products/avionics/Blue_Angel.html I think I mentioned here before that it overcharges Odyssey batteries, at about 15.3V. The manufacturer recently provided us with a kit to lower the voltage slightly. The kit consists of a heavy aluminum plate supporting three huge 15 ohm/50W resistors wired in parallel. The whole thing gets wired across the output of the charger to act as an additional load to drop the voltage into the acceptable Odyssey range. I tried it on some 12V batteries and it works fine. But on a 24V battery (not an Odyssey) , it got so hot that it let the magic smoke out of the feed wires to the resistor plate. Plus it's a personnel hazard and it smells bad. The manufacturer said "huh, that's weird" and sent me another resistor plate. Before I install it for round II, does this sound like a reasonable approach, or should I just expect the same results? Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Overactive Power Supply
From: Daniel Hooper <enginerdy(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 09, 2013
Wow, those guys know what 'brute force' means.. Maybe a dumb question, but do you need to drop the voltage for the 24v non-o dyssey battery? Daniel On May 9, 2013, at 3:47 PM, Dave Saylor w rote: > We have a very expensive power supply/battery charger. It's for aircraft u se, purchaed from an aircraft vendor, and even has a picture of an airplane o n it. > > http://www.bycansystems.com/products/avionics/Blue_Angel.html > > I think I mentioned here before that it overcharges Odyssey batteries, at a bout 15.3V. The manufacturer recently provided us with a kit to lower the v oltage slightly. The kit consists of a heavy aluminum plate supporting thre e huge 15 ohm/50W resistors wired in parallel. The whole thing gets wired a cross the output of the charger to act as an additional load to drop the vol tage into the acceptable Odyssey range. > > I tried it on some 12V batteries and it works fine. But on a 24V battery ( not an Odyssey) , it got so hot that it let the magic smoke out of the feed w ires to the resistor plate. Plus it's a personnel hazard and it smells bad. > > The manufacturer said "huh, that's weird" and sent me another resistor pla te. > > Before I install it for round II, does this sound like a reasonable approa ch, or should I just expect the same results? > > Dave Saylor > 831-750-0284 CL > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 09, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Overactive Power Supply
At 03:47 PM 5/9/2013, you wrote: >We have a very expensive power supply/battery >charger. =C2 It's for aircraft use, purchaed from >an aircraft vendor, and even has a picture of an airplane on it. > ><http://www.bycansystems.com/products/avionics/Blue_Angel.html>http://www.b ycansystems.com/products/avionics/Blue_Angel.html > >I think I mentioned here before that it >overcharges Odyssey batteries, at about 15.3V. =C2 >The manufacturer recently provided us with a kit >to lower the voltage slightly. =C2 The kit >consists of a heavy aluminum plate supporting >three huge 15 ohm/50W resistors wired in >parallel. =C2 The whole thing gets wired across >the output of the charger to act as an >additional load to drop the voltage into the acceptable Odyssey range. > >I tried it on some 12V batteries and it works >fine. =C2 But on a 24V battery (not an=C2 Odyssey)=C2 >, it got so hot that it let the magic smoke out >of the feed wires to the resistor plate. =C2 Plus >it's a=C2 personnel=C2 hazard and it smells bad. > >The=C2 manufacturer=C2 said "huh, that's=C2 weird" and >sent me another resistor plate. > >Before I install it for round II, does this >sound like a reasonable approach, or should I just expect the same results? Man! This is sad. There is no reason whatsoever for this kind of behavior. Getting a smart charger to behave is child's play. External band-aids are inexcusable. Oh fooey, I just read the fine print. "Ferro-resonant regulation" . . . by today's standards this is just one step above no regulation and certainly not controlled for accurate battery charging. This is 1940's technology. It would be really interesting to see what's inside this 'magic' box. Maybe I ought to design one. I'm thinking of a charger that one could plug into a computer USB port to set charge current, plateau voltage for bulk charge, trigger current level for recession to sustaining voltage, and sustaining voltage. A kind of Super Battery Minder with flexibility to charge ANY svla battery up to and including 24 volts. I've got another program on the back burner to do a new alternator regulator that calls for some cross-over technology with the battery charger. Of course that doesn't help you right now. Is this the only charger you have right now? It's okay for ground power but as you've discovered, NOT a good charger. How much current do you NEED for ground power service? As a general rule, ground power carts for aircraft should be either 13 or 26 volt output and NEVER used to charge a battery. Battery chargers should be 'smart' devices that do the SVLA three-stroke waltz . . . http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Charger_Performance/Ide CHARGE, BULK, SUSTAIN . . . Of course it's possible to build a device that will DO both. You can float a battery across a 13/26v ground power supply -OR- do the 3-stroke waltz on a stand-alone battery . . . but not both at the same time. The device you have seems entirely unsuited to battery charging. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Contactor clicks but doesn't make elec trical contact
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: May 09, 2013
> Eric, Are you saying that this is NOT the original contactor installed by Cessna Aircraft Corp. in the new, as built aircraft? > Roger I spent many hours tracking down the designers of this Stancor-White-Rogers Tyco Type-70. The only info that remains available seems to be the current specs. The available newly produced Type-70 specs simply make it unsuitable. Will it work, Yes. Will it fail? Yes, sooner than you'd like. It is entirely possible that Cessna had a custom model. Is Cessna still using these? Possibly, but certificated a/c tend to use old original technology until it bleeds. There's no reason you should follow them. > Question regarding EV200 - Would you use the short model that has the economizer built in? Or the larger (taller) version that has no economizer ? Jan Go with the economizer. The Kilovac Czonkas are made in many types. There is a marine model too that is perfectly usable. But I don't have stock in Kilovac. There are many makers of newer stuff. For my airplane, I'll use a Flaming River Battery switch if I can and an EV200 otherwise.... ps: Guess how Kilovac and Gigavac clamp coil voltages generated from the collapsing magnetic field? That's right...bidirectional zeners. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400215#400215 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 09, 2013
Subject: Re: Overactive Power Supply
I think we'll just give up on using it to charge. I'll disable the charge mode and just use it as a power supply. I've seen what's inside. I'll send you a couple pictures. It weighs a ton. Well, 46 lbs according to the web page. Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Daniel Hooper wrote: > Wow, those guys know what 'brute force' means.. > > Maybe a dumb question, but do you need to drop the voltage for the 24v > non-odyssey battery? > > Daniel > > On May 9, 2013, at 3:47 PM, Dave Saylor > wrote: > > We have a very expensive power supply/battery charger. It's for aircraft > use, purchaed from an aircraft vendor, and even has a picture of an > airplane on it. > > http://www.bycansystems.com/products/avionics/Blue_Angel.html > > I think I mentioned here before that it overcharges Odyssey batteries, at > about 15.3V. The manufacturer recently provided us with a kit to lower the > voltage slightly. The kit consists of a heavy aluminum plate supporting > three huge 15 ohm/50W resistors wired in parallel. The whole thing gets > wired across the output of the charger to act as an additional load to drop > the voltage into the acceptable Odyssey range. > > I tried it on some 12V batteries and it works fine. But on a 24V battery > (not an Odyssey) , it got so hot that it let the magic smoke out of the > feed wires to the resistor plate. Plus it's a personnel hazard and it > smells bad. > > The manufacturer said "huh, that's weird" and sent me another resistor > plate. > > Before I install it for round II, does this sound like a reasonable > approach, or should I just expect the same results? > > Dave Saylor > 831-750-0284 CL > > * > > * > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 09, 2013
Subject: Re: Overactive Power Supply
I don't have a need to adjust the 24V output. But the connector is common with the 12V side and I'm hoping to avoid some switching scenario that shuts off the resistors for 24V. The heat is present but manageable in 12V mode. I put a piece of insulation over the hot area and never saw any smoke until we tried 24V. Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Daniel Hooper wrote: > Wow, those guys know what 'brute force' means.. > > Maybe a dumb question, but do you need to drop the voltage for the 24v > non-odyssey battery? > > Daniel > > On May 9, 2013, at 3:47 PM, Dave Saylor > wrote: > > We have a very expensive power supply/battery charger. It's for aircraft > use, purchaed from an aircraft vendor, and even has a picture of an > airplane on it. > > http://www.bycansystems.com/products/avionics/Blue_Angel.html > > I think I mentioned here before that it overcharges Odyssey batteries, at > about 15.3V. The manufacturer recently provided us with a kit to lower the > voltage slightly. The kit consists of a heavy aluminum plate supporting > three huge 15 ohm/50W resistors wired in parallel. The whole thing gets > wired across the output of the charger to act as an additional load to drop > the voltage into the acceptable Odyssey range. > > I tried it on some 12V batteries and it works fine. But on a 24V battery > (not an Odyssey) , it got so hot that it let the magic smoke out of the > feed wires to the resistor plate. Plus it's a personnel hazard and it > smells bad. > > The manufacturer said "huh, that's weird" and sent me another resistor > plate. > > Before I install it for round II, does this sound like a reasonable > approach, or should I just expect the same results? > > Dave Saylor > 831-750-0284 CL > > * > > * > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sacha" <uuccio(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Garmin GNS430 goes into setup mode - screen with
colored boxes
Date: May 10, 2013
Turns out that removing the data card, rebooting the unit and then re-inserting it did the trick; just as Garmin support suggested! Phew... ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Garmin GNS430 goes into setup mode - screen with
colored boxes
From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: May 09, 2013
Sacha, can you re cap this thread for me? I must have missed it and I have had my 430W freeze on boot up a few weeks ago. I'm just wondering if you can elaborate, when this happened I suspected my data card may have been the cause, that or heat from sitting out all day in the sun. Thanks! Tim Sent from my iPad On May 9, 2013, at 10:27 PM, "Sacha" wrote: > > Turns out that removing the data card, rebooting the unit and then > re-inserting it did the trick; just as Garmin support suggested! Phew... > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sacha" <uuccio(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Garmin GNS430 goes into setup mode - screen with
colored boxes
Date: May 10, 2013
Hi Tim, Sure. I changed one of the wires on the 4001 connector on my GNS430 and when I put everything back and powered up the GNS430, I got a strange startup screen with lots of concentric colored boxes. The unit appeared to be in SETUP mode because when I turn the right dial I got the other setup screens. But no matter how many times I tied it would not startup normally. After posting to the list, I also emailed Garmin support. Within hours, I got the following reply from them: " What you are seeing is Test mode. Try first removing the data cards and see if this will clear it it. If not you may have Pin 75 OF plug 4001 grounded. If this is not the case then you have a unit problem and it will need to be repaired." Getting the unit fixed would probably have been a four figure expense including shipping, so I'm quite happy that its still working! Rgds sacha ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Garmin GNS430 goes into setup mode - screen with
colored boxes
From: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: May 10, 2013
Thank you! Tim Sent from my iPad On May 9, 2013, at 11:33 PM, "Sacha" wrote: > > Hi Tim, > Sure. I changed one of the wires on the 4001 connector on my GNS430 and > when I put everything back and powered up the GNS430, I got a strange > startup screen with lots of concentric colored boxes. The unit appeared to > be in SETUP mode because when I turn the right dial I got the other setup > screens. But no matter how many times I tied it would not startup normally. > After posting to the list, I also emailed Garmin support. Within hours, I > got the following reply from them: " What you are seeing is Test mode. Try > first removing the data cards and see if this will clear it it. If not you > may have Pin 75 OF plug 4001 grounded. If this is not the case then you > have a unit problem and it will need to be repaired." > Getting the unit fixed would probably have been a four figure expense > including shipping, so I'm quite happy that its still working! > Rgds > sacha > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 10, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Overactive Power Supply
At 07:38 PM 5/9/2013, you wrote: >I think we'll just give up on using it to >charge. =C2 I'll disable the charge mode and just use it as a power supply. > >I've seen what's inside. =C2 I'll send you a >couple pictures. =C2 It weighs a ton. =C2 Well, 46 lbs according to the web page. > >Dave Saylor >831-750-0284 CL Okay, I think that's a wise move. How are you fixed for righteous chargers? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 10, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Overactive Power Supply
At 06:52 PM 5/9/2013, you wrote: >Bob, > >If you're looking at something that plugs into a USB port, look and >the Raspberry Pi computer and include it in the charger. I've seen that. There's a whole family of cheap DIY project modules that run Linux and emulates a PC. I've got some designs that exploit the USB engine on the PIC uControllers as modern incarnations of the rudimentary communications line. This stuff is advancing so rapidly that one is a little intimidated about carving a new idea into hardware . . . the damned thing is in danger of being obsolete before you get to build anything! Fortunately, just as a hammer will still drive a nail, ingredients that went into past recipes for success in the electronic arts still function as well today as they used to . . . and there's no shame in being skilled at driving nails. I had an uncle who was 6'4", weighed about 230 and hated finish work. He liked to frame houses. Drove nails with a rigging axe . . . one tap to start, two taps to set. His left thumb and forefinger looked like victims of the inquisition. I've often wondered how he would prefer to assemble lumber if he were alive today . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 10, 2013
Subject: Re: Overactive Power Supply
Here's a peek under the hood. The gold resistors are the dropping kit. They go in parallel with the big blue capacitor you can just see in the picture. In this picture it's just sitting there, not connected. Here's the dropping kit in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=05lRvTY6rXA For now we're using this: http://www.geniuschargers.com/G7200/specs Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 8:17 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 07:38 PM 5/9/2013, you wrote: > > I think we'll just give up on using it to charge. =C3=82 I'll disable the > charge mode and just use it as a power supply. > > I've seen what's inside. =C3=82 I'll send you a couple pictures. =C3=82 I t weighs a > ton. =C3=82 Well, 46 lbs according to the web page. > > Dave Saylor > 831-750-0284 CL** > > > Okay, I think that's a wise move. How are > you fixed for righteous chargers? > > > ** > > ** Bob . . . > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 10, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Overactive Power Supply
At 12:04 PM 5/10/2013, you wrote: Here's a peek under the hood. The gold resistors are the dropping kit. They go in parallel with the big blue capacitor you can just see in the picture. In this picture it's just sitting there, not connected. Yeah, the transformer with a big and little windings is the giveaway. REALLY neat technology for improving line and load regulation of substantial loads (100 to a couple thousand watts). Use to have one in my darkroom to stabilize the enlarger lamps. But not nearly accurate enough to maintain optimal SVLA charging levels. See: http://tinyurl.com/ckforvu Here's the dropping kit in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=05lRvTY6rXA That's unfortunate. "Chargers" that run that hot haven't been seen for lots of years. Used to have oen that featured 1000w of lamps to set the charging current (about 10A) for a 6v battery out of my '41 Pontiac. For now we're using this: http://www.geniuschargers.com/G7200/specs Those should be just fine Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 10, 2013
Subject: icom i200 squelch
From: bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
here's the update on my noise problem. i pulled the radio and got at the circuit board adj. for squelch. turned the plastic screw from 12 oclock to 9 oclock. that totally eliminated the awos broadcast unless i pulled the volume knob to cancel squelch. turned the screw bach to 11 oclock and that seemed to fix my problem. no more noise at higher rpm. thanks for the help. bob noffs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 11, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Crowbar OV Module
At 02:06 AM 5/11/2013, you wrote: >Good morning Bob, > >I just bought one crowbar OV module from your site. Could you tell >me as precisely as possible the value of the voltage which triggers >the module (14.5V ??)? > >I plan to use a Rotax 912UL with a Ducati voltage regulator and an >Aliant Lithium battery (Ref X4 12V 9.2Ah). This battery is >supposedly best charged at 14.4-14.6V, but they also say that >voltage over 14.5V could damage the battery ... >Of course I am trying to figure out if the crowbar OV module can >protect this battery from voltage over 14.5V. > >Regards >Eric Boutteloup Sure. The Crowbar ov modules we produce are set on the bench at 16.4 volts and they have a significant negative temperature coefficient. In very cold conditions, the voltage will be a bit higher, when hot they'll be a bit lower. This is consistent with a lead acid battery's performance needs with respect to ambient temperature. The OV module is NOT intended nor designed to guard the welfare of a battery although it's presence in the system will benefit the battery and all other electro-whizzies from a runaway alternator. The failure condition we're concerned with is a failed regulator that allows an alternator to run essentially full bore. While not a spectacular event with your Rotax 18A alternator, it's another matter with a 60A belt driven alternator on a Lycoming. The Crowbar OVM is a rational addition to your system but it's not going to catch a poorly performing regulator that's putting your battery at risk for LONG term effects of inappropriate voltage setting. Care and feeding of your lithium battery is another matter entirely. I'd not heard of the Aliant brand until your enquiry. Poking around on the 'net I find that they've made what appears to be a good penetration of the sport vehicles markets. They filed for a trademark ALIANT late last year. http://tinyurl.com/d2ohsjo I'm reading also where a part of their organization has been awarded a contract to do safety studies for the US Army to explore characteristics based on environments and maintenance issues. This is how the B787 cells should have been tested too. Not unlike the work that the Navy's battery labs in Crane, IN used to do and may still do. The lithium elephants in the room are: (1) Can one drop an Li battery into location previously occupied by lead-acid or Ni-Cad (with no other changes to the system) and expect (2) a service life commensurate with increased costs,(3) performance enhancements commensurate with less weight and (3) reliability equal too or better than the batteries being replaced (i.e. pre-mature chemistry death and catching fire is very much frowned upon!). The technology is relatively young and variations on a theme for chemistries increases the numbers of variables for the sifting of elephants. I quick appraisal of Internet images for Aliant batteries http://tinyurl.com/bnfnfeq failed to show a battery with a socket for a "genius charger" nor did I see any batteries fitted with ports to connect such chargers. All the recommended chargers ranging from wall warts (including Battery Tenders) . . . [] [] to 'Super chargers' . . . . [] . . . appear to make two-wire connections to the battery. This means that the charger cannot perform to any cell-by-cell charging protocols. Now, are they 'tailored' to lithium chemistry? Don't know. It would be interesting to plot the output from one of these 'recommended' chargers to see if they exhibit any more smarts than the commercial off the shelf chargers for lead-acid. So, Eric my friend, the SHORT answer to your question is that the OV module has no duties or practical expectations for enhancing battery performance on your airplane. Where did you read about 14.5v charge levels being detrimental to the product? Many vehicular alternator regulators may produce system voltages at or maybe above 14.5 volts. Only an accurate voltmeter on YOUR airplane will tell this tale. My suspicion is that the literature is referring to long term maintenance or 'float' voltages. A system operating voltage that was suited to your SVLA battery may be no more detrimental to the Li-Ion given the intermittent and short term application of the "excess" voltage. SLVA is the same way. You MAINTAIN it at just a tad above 13.0 volts and CHARGE it at 14.2 to 14.8 volts. The numbers for a drop-in lithium battery should be just FINE with similar CHARGE voltages . . . the MAINTENANCE voltage will no doubt be different. This graph taken from a learned treatise on Li batteries Emacs! Suggests a room temperature open circuit voltage on the order of 3.35 volts per cell or 13.4 volts for an array of 4 cells. This means that the Li-battery 'maintainer' needs to be on the order of 13.5 volts . . . probably not too high for a lead-acid battery either. Given the drop-in-SVLA-replacement marketing policy for the Aliant Li-products, you need not concern yourself for any duties of ownership beyond having a voltmeter in your airplane that confirms a 14.2 to 14.8 flight ops voltage . . . and a ov protection system for mitigating regulator failures. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 11, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Lithium Ion Battery for OBAM aircraft project
At 01:02 PM 5/11/2013, eric.boutteloup(at)laposte.net wrote: Good morning Bob, Thank you very much for your quick, documented and very interesting answer. 1) I found, the information about voltage over 14.5V on the link below (from ULM Technology a french dealer for ultra light airplane parts) http://commerce.ciel.com/ulmtechnologie/Article/60193-X4_this.aspx? The sentence (in french !!) at the bottom : =9DAttention en cas de surtension sup=C3=A9rieure =C3 14.5V, la batterie se d=C3=A9t=C3=A9rior=C3=A9e, dans ce cas, la garantie ne s'applique pas=9D Which means : Warning, in case of overvoltage above 14.5V, the battery become damaged, in this case, warranty will not apply. 2) I just have had a look to the Aliant website and they say : Charging voltage 14.4 V Maximum charging voltage 14.6 V They also claim that : This family of batteries is indicated for the replacement of all types of lead batteries currently in use without making any changes to the electrical system in the vehicle. Refer to the online configurator to choose the suitable model. 3) I am in the process of building a micro light Aircraft from a kit, a Nynja from Bestoff. So I cannot check yet the voltage of the Ducati regulator. On the 912UL2 installation manual, regarding the regulator (which is supposedly a Ducati one...) , it says: usefull voltage : 14 +/-0.3V (from 1000+/-250 rpm) In consequence it seams quite probable that this low weight battery can survive in my future 912UL2 electric environment, provided that the regulator do not over volt too long and too often above 14.6V. I agree. Since I responded to your query, I've discovered that the Aliant products utilize A123 cylindrical cells. A123 filed for bankruptcy protection last fall http://tinyurl.com/cmy4xnj and seems to have received an influx of cash from a Chinese firm. I believe A123 was the supplier of cells to Cessna's Li battery program which has been put on the back burners pending recovery from a battery fire in a Citation on the ramp last year. I believe the Cessna battery used prismatic cells . . . 'rectangular bricks' as opposed to the cylindrical 'jelly roll' cells which seem to be less prone to the separator failures suspected of being root cause for the failures. Aha! Just ran across this statement from a document found at: http://tinyurl.com/c4hetul ALIANT compared currently with SSB Powersport/Haijue/Skyrich/Ballistic/Motocell/Shorai (Chinese cells) 1) Up to 16 Models are required to stock. Aliant has only 6 different models to manage covering over 95% of motorcycle applications. 2) Aliant product is made with A123 System cells-that means maximum safety and performance. The oldest and industry leading cell producer from the USA. Involved in Lithium technology since Space Shuttle. 3) S kyrich, (SSB, Haijue) use Lithium Polymer cells not lithim iron phosphate technology-there are differences in terms of quality and safety as well as they can explode and catch fire when overvoltage and short circuit. It does not happen with A123 System cell as they meet the UL1342 testing. Published on<http://www.birdman.net.au> www.Birdman.net.au website. I was unable to find any such testing protocol on the UL website at http://tinyurl.com/brpeblz Further, a stroking of the search engines failed to take notice of "UL1342" anywhere except on the birdman website. I'll write to them for clarification. Maybe this is a typo. I did find a listing for UL2575, the only one that speaks to lithium batteries (for power tools). 4) ALIANT have integrated BMS that allows the system to get fully charged with: * Motorcycle electric system without any change and can handle system failure with absolute safety. * A list of compatible chargers (Battery tender, Optimate Lithium, CTEK X800 and 3600) These features are not possible with other brands as there is no BMS inside, and you need to use a dedicated charger to charge the battery and make sure its ok. ALIANT extends battery life becuase it ALWAYS WORKS, both in charge and discharge, and maintains the cells at same voltages, balancing along the series of cells. It seems the Aliant products are fitted with a battery management system that takes care of housekeeping chores unique to lithium batteries. That's a different ball game. Even the little $3 Li-Ion batteries for my grandson's helicopter is fitted with a BMS. Emacs! Internal management of lithium battery vagaries would go a LONG way toward making the product user friendly and a drop-in-replacement for legacy batteries. This explains the images I posted earlier suggesting that my plain-vanilla battery tenders are suited to service on Aliant products. The cylindrical cells may also go to improved separator performance. It does give pause to consider the admonition for a "14.5 volt limit" on charging voltage. An internal battery management system should be able to accommodate ANY charging voltage not wildly departed from that found in legacy lead-acid systems. In any case, what I've learned about Aliant today suggests that it stands above other popular products in terms of BMS for operational issues and cylindrical cells for failure issues. The claim for UL approval to the wrong spec is curious . . . I'll explore further. I've not yet discovered any US suppliers of Aliant batteries but I've run out of time to look more today. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sacha" <uuccio(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Lithium Ion Battery for OBAM aircraft project
Date: May 11, 2013
It does not happen with A123 System cell as they meet the UL1342 testing. Published on www.Birdman.net.au <http://www.birdman.net.au> website. I was unable to find any such testing protocol on the UL website at http://tinyurl.com/brpeblz Further, a stroking of the search engines failed to take notice of "UL1342" anywhere except on the birdman website. I'll write to them for clarification. Maybe this is a typo. I did find a listing for UL2575, the only one that speaks to lithium batteries (for power tools). I believe that they mean UL1642. http://ulstandardsinfonet.ul.com/scopes/scopes.asp?fn=1642.html ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 11, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Lithium Ion Battery for OBAM aircraft project
> >I believe that they mean UL1642. > ><http://ulstandardsinfonet.ul.com/scopes/scopes.asp?fn=1642.html>http://ulstandardsinfonet.ul.com/scopes/scopes.asp?fn=1642.html > Could be. Thanks. I'll see if I can track down either one . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 11, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Crowbar OV Module
Care and feeding of your lithium battery is another matter entirely. I'd not heard of the Aliant brand until your enquiry. Poking around on the 'net I find that they've made what appears to be a good penetration of the sport vehicles markets. They filed for a trademark ALIANT late last year. http://tinyurl.com/d2ohsjo I'm reading also where a part of their organization has been awarded a contract to do safety studies for the US Army to explore characteristics based on environments and maintenance issues. SCRATCH THE ABOVE. Seems there's a company called Alliant/Valence that makes a lot of aerospace/military hardware. These are the folks getting the testing job . . . NOT Aliant Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Crowbar OV Module
Date: May 12, 2013
Aliant is a brand belonging to ELSA Solutions. They're an Italian company ba sed in Bologna, whose main business is industrial automation and photovoltai c products. www.elsaweb.it Their website is in Italian and they use google translate which can yield so me interesting results. They claim that their batteries were designed with the Battery Management Sy stem as the central component which may explain why they haven't run into th e same problems as the other manufacturers. On 12 May 2013, at 02:18, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectr ic.com> wrote: > Care and feeding of your lithium battery is > another matter entirely. I'd not heard of > the Aliant brand until your enquiry. Poking > around on the 'net I find that they've made > what appears to be a good penetration of the > sport vehicles markets. They filed for a trademark > > > > late last year. http://tinyurl.com/d2ohsjo > > I'm reading also where a part of their organization > has been awarded a contract to do safety > studies for the US Army to explore characteristics > based on environments and maintenance issues. > > SCRATCH THE ABOVE. > > Seems there's a company called Alliant/Valence that makes > a lot of aerospace/military hardware. These are the > folks getting the testing job . . . NOT Aliant > > Bob . . . > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jan <jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Crowbar OV Module
Date: May 12, 2013
I know Valence very well. Been using them for a few years in other applications - They ran out of money some time ago. Looks like they are now doing work with this Aliant company .. Valence had a good technology and a good BMS system - Also the Iron Phosphate technology is pretty safe - Not as energy dense or as powerful as Cobalt . To not damage the cells - over voltage under voltage and temperatures all have to be watched and maintained to not damage the cell. _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha Sent: 12 May 2013 07:56 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Crowbar OV Module Aliant is a brand belonging to ELSA Solutions. They're an Italian company based in Bologna, whose main business is industrial automation and photovoltaic products. www.elsaweb.it <http://www.elsaweb.it> Their website is in Italian and they use google translate which can yield some interesting results. They claim that their batteries were designed with the Battery Management System as the central component which may explain why they haven't run into the same problems as the other manufacturers. On 12 May 2013, at 02:18, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > wrote: Care and feeding of your lithium battery is another matter entirely. I'd not heard of the Aliant brand until your enquiry. Poking around on the 'net I find that they've made what appears to be a good penetration of the sport vehicles markets. They filed for a trademark ALIANT <http://www.trademarkia.com/logo-images/elsa-solutions-srl/aliant-79120895.j pg> late last year. http://tinyurl.com/d2ohsjo I'm reading also where a part of their organization has been awarded a contract to do safety studies for the US Army to explore characteristics based on environments and maintenance issues. SCRATCH THE ABOVE. Seems there's a company called Alliant/Valence that makes a lot of aerospace/military hardware. These are the folks getting the testing job . . . NOT Aliant Bob . . . D======================== ========= D======================== ========= D======================== ========= D======================== ========= http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

I know Valence very well. Been using them for a few years in other applications – They ran out of money some time ago. Looks like they are now doing work with this Aliant company ..  Valence had a good technology and a good BMS system – Also the Iron Phosphate technology is pretty safe – Not as energy dense or as powerful as Cobalt  .

 

To not damage the cells – over voltage under voltage and temperatures all have to be watched and maintained to not damage the cell.

 

 

 


From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha
Sent: 12 May 2013 07:56
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Crowbar OV Module

 

Aliant is a brand belonging to ELSA Solutions. They're an Italian company based in Bologna, whose main business is industrial automation and photovoltaic products. 

Their website is in Italian and they use google translate which can yield some interesting results.

They claim that their batteries were designed with the Battery Management System as the central component which may explain why they haven't run into the same problems as the other manufacturers. 


On 12 May 2013, at 02:18, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric. com> wrote:

  Care and feeding of your lithium battery is
  another matter entirely. I'd not heard of
  the Aliant brand until your enquiry. Poking
  around on the 'net I find that they've made
  what appears to be a good penetration of the
  sport vehicles markets. They filed for a trademark
 
http://www.trademarkia.com/logo-images/elsa-solutions-srl/aliant- 79120895.jpg" alt=ALIANT> 

  late last year. http://tinyurl.com/d2ohsjo>

  I'm reading also where a part of their organization
  has been awarded a contract to do safety
  studies for the US Army to explore characteristics
  based on environments and maintenance issues.
 
  SCRATCH THE ABOVE.

  Seems there's a company called Alliant/Valence that makes
  a lot of aerospace/military hardware. These are the
  folks getting the testing job . . . NOT Aliant


  Bob . . .

 
      
 
 
 
 <
      /font>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
http://forums.matronics.com
      
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<
      /font>
 

      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 12, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Crowbar OV Module
At 03:01 AM 5/12/2013, you wrote: >I know Valence very well. Been using them for a >few years in other applications ' They ran out >of money some time ago. Looks like they are now >doing work with this Aliant company .. Valence >had a good technology and a good BMS system ' >Also the Iron Phosphate technology is pretty >safe ' Not as energy dense or as powerful as Cobalt . > >To not damage the cells ' over voltage under >voltage and temperatures all have to be watched >and maintained to not damage the cell. > > Are you saying there IS a cooperation between Aliant the battery guys and Alliant/Valence the aerospace/ military guys? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jan <jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Crowbar OV Module
Date: May 12, 2013
Bob, I will make a few phone calls next week and see what I can find out... Jan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: 12 May 2013 14:43 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Crowbar OV Module At 03:01 AM 5/12/2013, you wrote: I know Valence very well. Been using them for a few years in other applications - They ran out of money some time ago. Looks like they are now doing work with this Aliant company .. Valence had a good technology and a good BMS system - Also the Iron Phosphate technology is pretty safe - Not as energy dense or as powerful as Cobalt . To not damage the cells - over voltage under voltage and temperatures all have to be watched and maintained to not damage the cell. Are you saying there IS a cooperation between Aliant the battery guys and Alliant/Valence the aerospace/ military guys? Bob . . . <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

Bob,

 

I will make a few phone calls next week and see what I can find out…

 

Jan

 


From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: 12 May 2013 14:43
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Crowbar OV Module

 

At 03:01 AM 5/12/2013, you wrote:

I know Valence very well. Been using them for a few years in other applications – They ran out of money some time ago. Looks like they are now doing work with this Aliant company ..  Valence had a good technology and a good BMS system – Also the Iron Phosphate technology is pretty safe – Not as energy dense or as powerful as Cobalt  .
 
To not damage the cells – over voltage under voltage and temperatures all have to be watched and maintained to not damage the cell.
 
 
 


  Are you saying there IS a cooperation between Aliant
  the battery guys and Alliant/Valence the aerospace/
  military guys?



  Bob . . .

 
 
http://www
      .matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
      
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/
      contribution
 

      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 12, 2013
From: David Josephson <dlj04(at)josephson.com>
Subject: Lithium batteries for OBAM aircraft
I attended the Electric Aircraft Symposium put on by CAFE a few weeks ago. One of the speakers was Dr Eric Darcy of the NASA Johnson Spaceflight Center in Houston, on "Mitigating Catastrophic Failures with Li-ion Batteries." He has the task of figuring out how to change out the batteries in the International Space Station, and for now they are planning to use the same GS-Yuasa LVP lithium cobalt cells that are in the Boeing 787. As you might imagine, he's not quite ready to give the green light for using them in the Space Station. We learned a lot about keeping lithium batteries from doing bad things, and about some things that amateurs can do to test cells for likely problems. All variants (LiPo, LiFe, Li-poly etc.) have the same thermal runaway problem that seems to have been the failure mechanism in the incidents to date, some just take more abuse to start it. Besides that, the lithium cobalt chemistry (used in the 787, Tesla cars, laptops and many other applications) uses a flammable electrolyte that isn't used in the lithium/manganese or lithium/iron used in some others. He thought they were all just as dangerous, though, and were subject to all of the same problems. Once the cell develops a short, all of its energy gets released as heat, potentially causing the neighboring cells to do the same. Of course the known limits for charge voltage and discharge current must be followed. You also need to avoid mechanical damage that could cause a short between the plates of the cell (drive a nail through and they will explode.) But the famous failures so far have probably not been due to any of those things. Dr. Darcy was clear to point out that he didn't know what happened with the 787 batteries but discussed failures that he had seen in many other cell types, both prismatic and "jelly roll." Two main events can happen: a small inclusion like a tiny snip of metal or dirt can be trapped in the separator between the battery plates that ultimately starts forming a current path between them, or the edges of the plates which are supposed to be overlapped by insulating material can come close to touching if they are misaligned, causing the same sort of contact. Many of these cell failures can be caught long before the cell melts down, because each of these almost-short-circuits usually causes some discharge before the full battery current can flow. Darcy suggested two tests that anyone could do. One is when receiving a lot of cells, that have been partially charged and then shipped a long distance, measure the open circuit voltage of each one. They should all be very close to each other, like within 1%. The other test is to charge each cell to full capacity and then discharge to 10%, say 3.25 volts. Disconnect the charger and measure the open circuit voltage a few times a day for two weeks. Good cells will climb at a uniform rate back to their original voltage, suspect cells will have a very different curve, either much slower or much faster (typically followed by a droop). At the end of two weeks, trust the cells that are all clustered with the same open circuit voltage. I would imagine that the folks packaging cells into aircraft batteries do some of this testing, but it's good to know that some simple methods can be used to check cells beforehand. -- David Josephson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 12, 2013
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Lithium batteries for OBAM aircraft
David,=0A=0AThanks for giving us insight on what Dr. Darcy said at the JSC on mitigating catastrophic failures with lithium batteries. I have the opin ion that lithium batteries are not ready for prime time in aircraft, but I can always be talked out of it if someone has done sufficient analysis and testing to prove me wrong.- I see that Dr. Darcy isn't ready to install l ithium cobalt batteries in the ISS.- I wonder if he would install them in his OBAM aircraft and fly his family around?- I suspect not.=0A=0A=0AI h ave a problem with his advice about how to detect cell failures.- We typi cally do not have access to cells, because they are packaged in series to b uild up the voltage to 12V+. I certainly wouldn't drill into the packaging material to measure individual cells. Therefore, we only have access to two points: GND and POS.- Without destroying the battery's usefulness, we ca n't perform the cell tests he mentioned.=0A=0A=0ADoes anyone see it differe ntly?=0A-=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A F rom: David Josephson =0ATo: aeroelectric-list@matronic s.com =0ASent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:51 PM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: L ithium batteries for OBAM aircraft=0A =0A=0A--> AeroElectric-List message p osted by: David Josephson =0A=0AI attended the Electri c Aircraft Symposium put on by CAFE a few weeks =0Aago. One of the speakers was Dr Eric Darcy of the NASA Johnson =0ASpaceflight Center in Houston, on "Mitigating Catastrophic Failures with =0ALi-ion Batteries." He has the ta sk of figuring out how to change out the =0Abatteries in the International Space Station, and for now they are =0Aplanning to use the same GS-Yuasa LV P lithium cobalt cells that are in =0Athe Boeing 787. As you might imagine, he's not quite ready to give the =0Agreen light for using them in the Spac e Station.=0A=0AWe learned a lot about keeping lithium batteries from doing bad things, =0Aand about some things that amateurs can do to test cells fo r likely =0Aproblems.- All variants (LiPo, LiFe, Li-poly etc.) have the s ame thermal =0Arunaway problem that seems to have been the failure mechanis m in the =0Aincidents to date, some just take more abuse to start it. Besid es that, =0Athe lithium cobalt chemistry (used in the 787, Tesla cars, lapt ops and =0Amany other applications) uses a flammable electrolyte that isn't used in =0Athe lithium/manganese or lithium/iron used in some others. He t hought =0Athey were all just as dangerous, though, and were subject to all of the =0Asame problems.=0A=0AOnce the cell develops a short, all of its en ergy gets released as heat, =0Apotentially causing the neighboring cells to do the same. Of course the =0Aknown limits for charge voltage and discharg e current must be followed. =0AYou also need to avoid mechanical damage tha t could cause a short =0Abetween the plates of the cell (drive a nail throu gh and they will =0Aexplode.) But the famous failures so far have probably not been due to =0Aany of those things. Dr. Darcy was clear to point out th at he didn't =0Aknow what happened with the 787 batteries but discussed fai lures that he =0Ahad seen in many other cell types, both prismatic and "jel ly roll." Two =0Amain events can happen: a small inclusion like a tiny snip of metal or =0Adirt can be trapped in the separator between the battery pl ates that =0Aultimately starts forming a current path between them, or the edges of =0Athe plates which are supposed to be overlapped by insulating ma terial =0Acan come close to touching if they are misaligned, causing the sa me sort =0Aof contact.=0A=0AMany of these cell failures can be caught long before the cell melts =0Adown, because each of these almost-short-circuits usually causes some =0Adischarge before the full battery current can flow. Darcy suggested two =0Atests that anyone could do. One is when receiving a lot of cells, that =0Ahave been partially charged and then shipped a long d istance, measure =0Athe open circuit voltage of each one. They should all b e very close to =0Aeach other, like within 1%. The other test is to charge each cell to =0Afull capacity and then discharge to 10%, say 3.25 volts. Di sconnect the =0Acharger and measure the open circuit voltage a few times a day for two =0Aweeks. Good cells will climb at a uniform rate back to their original =0Avoltage, suspect cells will have a very different curve, eithe r much =0Aslower or much faster (typically followed by a droop). At the end of two =0Aweeks, trust the cells that are all clustered with the same open circuit =0Avoltage.=0A=0AI would imagine that the folks packaging cells in to aircraft batteries =0Ado some of this testing, but it's good to know tha t some simple methods =0Acan be used to check cells beforehand.=0A=0A--=0AD = ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jan <jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Crowbar OV Module
Date: May 13, 2013
Bob, Done a bit of digging on this .. First Valence is still in Chapter 11. Yes they have supplied some battery modules to Alliant - The US aerospace military contractor. If that ever became of anything 'large scale' I am not sure .. if it ever did . it may not have been very profitable .. i.e. Chapter 11 :-) Aliant in Italy have nothing to do with Valence - What Aliant looks to have done is to do the same as Valence did from a integration point - Take small Li-phosphate cells - and integrate them to look like a 'normal battery' .. and include some form of BMS. What was great with Valence was that they based the form factor on your normal 12V 'golf cart' size battery - but it had 3 times the energy. Each battery would like together and you had a master MBS that would talk to all the battery modules and you would get all sort of interesting info over CAN. >From what I can see - Aliant in Italy have focused on single battery only (i.e. not high voltage application - with Valence you could easily string the battery together to give you 400VDC) ... What Aliant is saying about starting from a BMS is just sales blurb .. no one that makes any Li-ion battery will do so unless they have some form of BMS. The question is how good and sophisticated the MBS is. I would not be surprised if Aliant are using the same cells as Valence - but that is pure guesswork - The cells are made in China by Tianjin Lishen Battery. If I was to stick a Li-ion battery in a plane I would like to know a lot more about the BMS and how it interact with the cells. _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jan Sent: 12 May 2013 15:15 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Crowbar OV Module Bob, I will make a few phone calls next week and see what I can find out... Jan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: 12 May 2013 14:43 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Crowbar OV Module At 03:01 AM 5/12/2013, you wrote: I know Valence very well. Been using them for a few years in other applications - They ran out of money some time ago. Looks like they are now doing work with this Aliant company .. Valence had a good technology and a good BMS system - Also the Iron Phosphate technology is pretty safe - Not as energy dense or as powerful as Cobalt . To not damage the cells - over voltage under voltage and temperatures all have to be watched and maintained to not damage the cell. Are you saying there IS a cooperation between Aliant the battery guys and Alliant/Valence the aerospace/ military guys? Bob . . . http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

Bob,

 

Done a bit of digging on this ..

 

First Valence is still in Chapter 11. Yes they have supplied some battery modules to Alliant – The US aerospace military contractor.  If that ever became of anything ‘large scale’ I am not sure .. if it ever did . it may not have been very profitable .. i.e. Chapter 11  J

 

Aliant in  Italy have nothing to do with Valence – What Aliant looks to have done is to do the same as Valence did from a integration point – Take small Li-phosphate cells – and integrate them to look like a ‘normal battery’ .. and include some form of BMS.

 

What was great with Valence was that they based the form factor on your normal 12V ‘golf cart’ size  battery – but it had 3 times the energy. Each battery would like together and you had a master MBS that would talk to all the battery modules and you would get all sort of interesting info over CAN.

 

Italy have focused on single battery only (i.e. not high voltage application – with Valence you could easily string the battery together to give you 400VDC) …

 

What Aliant is saying about starting from a BMS is just sales blurb .. no one that makes any Li-ion battery will do so unless they have some form of BMS. The question is how good and sophisticated the MBS is.

 

I would not be surprised if Aliant are using the same cells as Valence – but that is pure guesswork – The cells are made in China by Tianjin Lishen Battery.

 

If I was to stick a Li-ion battery in a plane I would like to know a lot more about the BMS and how it interact with the cells.

 

 

 


From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jan
Sent: 12 May 2013 15:15
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Crowbar OV Module

 

Bob,

 

I will make a few phone calls next week and see what I can find out…

 

Jan

 


From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: 12 May 2013 14:43
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Crowbar OV Module

 

At 03:01 AM 5/12/2013, you wrote:

I know Valence very well. Been using them for a few years in other applications – They ran out of money some time ago. Looks like they are now doing work with this Aliant company ..  Valence had a good technology and a good BMS system – Also the Iron Phosphate technology is pretty safe – Not as energy dense or as powerful as Cobalt  .
 
To not damage the cells – over voltage under voltage and temperatu res all have to be watched and maintained to not damage the cell.
 
 
 


  Are you saying there IS a cooperation between Aliant
  the battery guys and Alliant/Valence the aerospace/
  military guys?


  Bob . . .

 
 
 
http://www
      .matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
      
 
http://forums.matronics.com
 
http://www.matronics.com/
      contribution
 
 

      
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Holger Selover-Stephan <holger-d(at)shadowbrush.com>
Subject: Microphone gain tuning
Date: May 15, 2013
Hi all, I seem to have a microphone gain tuning problem on the second DIY headset, following these instructions: http://n999za.com/2011/02/04/roll-your-own-in-ear-headset/ For the first headset I slaughtered an old GA headset and used its wires and microphone. Works beautifully. Now on the second headset I am using new shielded wires and this microphone (packed into a wind screen): http://store.acousticom.com/m7a-amplified-electret?keyword=5720-CA&categ ory_id=0&description=1&model=1 The microphone is now overly sensitive and picks up everything. In a quiet environment, my transmissions are crystal clear, but in flight the surrounding noise pretty much drowns out my voice. I tried it with two radios: an ICOM IC-A6 (on the ground) and in the air with a KX-135A through an RST 422 intercom. In the hangar with everything quiet but a radio playing soft music 20 feet away that music makes it into the transmissions. Since I bought the microphone new, I asked the vendor, and Joel writes back: What you will need to do is adjust the microphone gain control within your radio to adjust it to fit the microphone properly. All radios are different and require proper tuning when replacing the microphone. Please refer to your radio's manual for adjustment procedures. We do sell a microphone that allows you to tune the microphone with a screwdriver. This is a common occurence that microphones need to be adjusted to the radios to perform properly. Your mic currently is set too high in sensitivity/gain. I can see how the combination radio and microphone needs to be tuned, I don't want to tune the radio to just this new microphone, and thus make all other headsets unusable in my plane. Their adjustable gain microphones apparently need a 9V power supply - not ideal. Should I try this trick posted to this group a while back: Got a great idea from somebody, and the cost is free! Get the plastic 35mm film containers. Cut an "X" in the lid and slide it on the mic arm. Then wrap some foam around the mic and slide on the 35mm can after you have drilled a 1/4" hole in the side. Line up the hole with your mouth. Better than sliced bread. Just keep the hole tight against your mouth to keep out engine noise. My engine noise keeps my intercom open, but makes for a pleasant ride with me as the tour guide. walt evans NX140DL ============ Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power But this probably addresses mostly wind noise, and I'm in an all enclosed cabin. Any other thoughts? Thanks! Holger ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 15, 2013
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Microphone gain tuning
Oscar I've played a version of this game. I adjusted the radio to work well with a David Clarke non adjustable mic. Then I adjusted the mic on a Lightspeed to match. While the light speed uses batteries to power the active noise suppression, I often did not have batteries in it and the mic worked fine anyway. I'm suspicious of the claim that the adjustable mic needs a separate power source. All radios feed a DC bias voltage to the mic anyway. Makes little sense to me that any would need additional power. I'm sure others are more familiar with that but it would greatly curtail the usefulness of such a mic. I have found that the foam cover on the mic helps a bit but note that most mics also sense background noise from the backside so that they can cancel that out of the signal going to the radio. Makes me wonder if the film canister you mention would work all that well although it would certainly reduce the signal strength. Ken On 15/05/2013 3:38 AM, Holger Selover-Stephan wrote: > Hi all, > > I seem to have a microphone gain tuning problem on the second DIY > headset, following these instructions: > > http://n999za.com/2011/02/04/roll-your-own-in-ear-headset/


April 21, 2013 - May 15, 2013

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