AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-lx

August 29, 2013 - October 04, 2013



      
      
      >By the way this is what Mark Scheuer, the President of PS Engineering had to
      >say about your proposal, " Wow what a great and thorough response from Bob,
      >I see no reason why his system would not work, it appears you now have a
      >solution!"
      >
      >Mark was the one who originally said he could not offer a solution to my
      >problem, so I ran your idea by him to make sure there was not something that
      >we were missing.
      
         If Mark's happy with it, then I'll up the prediction
         for probability of success to 99.9!
      
      
      >Very nice of you to follow up with the warning.
      >
      >Years ago, I enjoyed your presentation at our EAA Chapter 65 in Stoney
      >Creek, Ontario, Canada.  I was impressed then and I'm even more impressed by
      >you now.  If your travels ever take you through Southern Ontario, please let
      >me know.  I'd love to treat you to a nice dinner and flight.
      
         Dr. Dee and I enjoyed that trip very much. Wouldn't mind
         doing another seminar in the future. I don't recall the
         gentleman's name but that trip got me a ride in a nicely
         done Falco. Flew over Niagara Falls and vicinity.
      
         Let us know how this install works out for you.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 29, 2013
Subject: Re: led trim display
From: bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
thanks for the replys. all in all i guess it is good news compared to improper wiring. bob noffs On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 10:29 AM, Eric M. Jones wrote: > emjones(at)charter.net> > > I like Ray Allen stuff, but the RP3 indicator and the trim boxes have > limitations. One of them is that the full-scale voltage returned from the > trim box pot is 1.2V. This is an issue when the wiring is close to the > transmitter because the voltages are way down in the RFI/EMI mud. The other > is the nature of the LED bar graph, which is an old design that can only > get so bright, and updates to the design, like an LCD aren't happening. > > See attached schematic. > > My approach was to eliminate the indicator and turn the "trim box" into a > true servo. I designed the TSCMR, true servo control to do that. > Alternatively, I designed a more advanced version, BUT DON'T SELL IT, that > uses 12V full-scale voltage at the trim box potentiometer, the bar graph, > an "In Transit" led, a "locked" led and a setting knob. > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407633#407633 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/tscmr_installation_manual_416.pdf > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/rac_trim_and_trim_indicator_schematics_433.pdf > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 29, 2013
Subject: Re: led trim display
From: rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us
Hi Bob The Europa that I am building uses a Ray Allen for pitch trimming. I have read over the years that some folks have the same problem you are experiencing when transmitting. It seems that the greatest success is keeping the wire run as far from antenna and associated wires as you can. I installed 5 conductor twisted with shielding from ACS: http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=30484 Ron Parigoris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 29, 2013
Subject: Re: led trim display
From: bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
it is a very minor thing. if fact i saw it 6 months ago and it wasn't until last week i keyed the mike and say the led display dance that i remembered it happened before. guess i don't look at my trim while talking! there! i am used to it already. now, it it changed the trim that would be something else. bob noffs On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 7:18 AM, wrote: > Hi Bob > > The Europa that I am building uses a Ray Allen for pitch trimming. I have > read over the years that some folks have the same problem you are > experiencing when transmitting. It seems that the greatest success is > keeping the wire run as far from antenna and associated wires as you can. I > installed 5 conductor twisted with shielding from ACS: > > http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=30484 > > Ron Parigoris > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: How to lose both ignition systems?
From: "Builder_Bill" <jonesw(at)mindspring.com>
Date: Aug 29, 2013
Bob, I was at your seminar at EAA431Brodhead, WI this Spring. There was a discussion on an accident involving a Lancair Dual LSE Ignition failure. I could not find it in a simple NSTB search assuming I even have enough details right to do so. The builder had supplied each LSE from an independent source, but failed to consider something else. Something about fuse & CB's in series maybe? Can you detail what happened to take down both LSE's? It's likely that sketch will be necessary. Thanks, Bill Jones Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407730#407730 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 29, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: How to lose both ignition systems?
At 03:29 PM 8/29/2013, you wrote: > > >Bob, I was at your seminar at EAA431Brodhead, WI this Spring. > >There was a discussion on an accident involving a Lancair Dual LSE >Ignition failure. I could not find it in a simple NSTB search >assuming I even have enough details right to do so. > >The builder had supplied each LSE from an independent source, but >failed to consider something else. Something about fuse & CB's in series maybe? > >Can you detail what happened to take down both LSE's? It's likely >that sketch will be necessary. Yes. That case settled a few weeks ago. I'm going to publish my reports and demonstration videos that were produced in support of the technical analysis. I need to 'sanitize' them a little so as to avoid causing unwarranted discomfort on the part of the participants. In any case, it is unlikely that anyone here on the List would repeat the error . . . an error that grew out of a combination of 'redundancy' features stacked on top of each other combined with a poor selection of components wherein both systems shared hardware in the power path. Run each ignition from a separate protective device on the battery bus . . . or separate battery busses if there are two batteries. Simple, direct, no shared hardware and truly redundant. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 30, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: led trim display
At 07:18 AM 8/29/2013, you wrote: >Hi Bob > >The Europa that I am building uses a Ray Allen for pitch trimming. I >have read over the years that some folks have the same problem you >are experiencing when transmitting. It seems that the greatest >success is keeping the wire run as far from antenna and associated >wires as you can. I installed 5 conductor twisted with shielding from ACS: > >http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=30484 > >Ron Parigoris After pondering schematics for the trim indicator, the reason for it's sensitivity to RF becomes apparent. The design was never evaluated and crafted for immunity to RF interference. There are critical components missing from the design. I note further that voltage used to excite the potentiometer in the actuator is the rudimentary 1.2 volts supplied by the internal reference regulator. An excerpt from the LM3914 specifications states . . . Emacs! A higher reference voltage increases noise immunity for the A/D conversion and less jitter or uncertainty in the bar-to-bar transitions for the display. I would have considered at least a 5v reference and probably some higher value still by adding R1/R2 as described above. Referring to the data sheet again we see that bias (or input load) current at the signal pin (5) is 100nA or less. Emacs! This means that we could put a resistor in series with pin (5) of say 10,000 ohms and exert less than 1 millivolt of error in the signal voltage. At the same time we would add say 1000pF capacitor from pin 5 to ground (pin 2). This mod alone might fix the RF sensitivity problem. As a matter of good design practice I would bypass the power input pin (3) to ground as well. The designers also missed a great opportunity to make their product truly 'universal' by not exploiting the expanded scale voltmeter example in the specifications. Emacs! Adding a few components and a couple of pots would allow the indicator to be tailored to a specific installation such that full down trim would illuminate the bottom led, full up trim the top led . . . irrespective of the actuator's as-installed stroke. I offered to help these guys with this product line at OSH about 20 years ago but they weren't interested. They also appear to have learned nothing new by way of feedback from the field as to how their product has been performing. Getting back to the original query for driving two indicators from one actuator pot, a study of the schematics and data suggests that two indicators running in parallel on one pot will not significantly 'load' the signal. Hence, you can wire one indicator to the actuator per installation instructions. Then wire the second indicator wire for wire in parallel with the first but leave its potentiometer excitation voltage wire (orange) floating. Bottom line is that this indicator would benefit greatly from due diligence to rudimentary operating characteristics and limitations. Adding the resistor and capacitor described above may fix the RF sensitivity issue. The idea that an installer should be burdened with careful positioning of wires to mitigate design flaws is decidedly un-cool. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: AFR Meter
From: speedy11(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 30, 2013
I suppose I should know about them, but I'm not familiar with measuring th e air-fuel ratio. The technique is apparently used with automotive racing engines to fine tune the air fuel mixture to optimize power output. Does anyone know if that concept and equipment has been applied to an OBAM aircraft? It sounds like an interesting and plausible concept. Stan Sutterfield Reno Race 84 > snip... I'm already familiar with them and they make good stuff! > The company is called PLX Devices, and they make incredible high quality products, gages, > etc, mostly for the auto industry. > snip... > > Mike Welch I can attest to the high quality, simple operation of the PLX's Air Fuel Ra tio Meter. Probably the simplest, no-brainer way to tune EFI. I installed a Sim ple Digital Systems EFI on a Franklin 6 cylinder and set it up using the PLX de vice. Amounted to putting a temporary O2 sensor in the 3 into 1 collector on one cylinder bank and connecting to the PLX device (velcroed to my panel) and g auge. Start the engine and your real-time air fuel ratio is displayed. Change the mixture (fuel value) on the EFI and watch the gauge reflect the change. Set it up for 12.5 to 1 max power at 250 RPM increments in the useable RPM rang e. Took about 15 minutes to map the 5 point rpm fuel curve. When I was done, I had the feeling that it couldn't be that simple. It was. The gauge is nice looking with it's digital display and progressive LED "needle", ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 30, 2013
Subject: Re: AFR Meter
From: DeWitt Whittington <dee.whittington(at)gmail.com>
This is done as standard procedure with Eggenfellner Subaru engines which have and SDS (Simplified Digital Systems) engine computer. http://sdsefi.com/ We've installed an AIR/FUEL RATIO knob on our sub-panel next to the throttle as highly suggested by Ross Farnham, the owner of SDS. We have an O2 sensor we bought from Ross on our left cylinder bank exhaust just below the point where the three left cylinders exhaust stacks merge into one exhaust pipe. We will monitor the AIR/FUEL ratio in our case with the SDS programmer which we also bought from Ross. Ross, who is in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, is a wizard with racing Subaru engines. Dee DeWitt (Dee) Whittington 804-677-4849 iPhone 804-358-4333 Home On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 1:31 PM, wrote: > I suppose I should know about them, but I'm not familiar with measuring > the air-fuel ratio. The technique is apparently used with automotive > racing engines to fine tune the air fuel mixture to optimize power output. > Does anyone know if that concept and equipment has been applied to an OBAM > aircraft? > It sounds like an interesting and plausible concept. > Stan Sutterfield > Reno Race 84 > > > snip... I'm already familiar with them and they make good stuff! > > The company is called PLX Devices, and they make incredible high quality > products, > gages, > > etc, mostly for the auto industry. > > snip... > > > > Mike Welch > > > I can attest to the high quality, simple operation of the PLX's Air Fuel Ratio > Meter. Probably the simplest, no-brainer way to tune EFI. I installed a Simple > Digital Systems EFI on a Franklin 6 cylinder and set it up using the PLX device. > Amounted to putting a temporary O2 sensor in the 3 into 1 collector on one > cylinder bank and connecting to the PLX device (velcroed to my panel) and gauge. > Start the engine and your real-time air fuel ratio is displayed. Change the > mixture (fuel value) on the EFI and watch the gauge reflect the change. Set > it up for 12.5 to 1 max power at 250 RPM increments in the useable RPM range. > Took about 15 minutes to map the 5 point rpm fuel curve. > When I was done, I had the feeling that it couldn't be that simple. > It was. > The gauge is nice looking with it's digital display and progressive LED > "needle", > > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: AFR Meter
Date: Aug 30, 2013
> snip> > Does anyone know if that concept and equipment has been applied to an OBAM aircraft? > It sounds like an interesting and plausible concept. Stan Sutterfield > Reno Race 84 Stan, My familiarity with them came when I bought their Air/Fuel wideband O2 meter and sender. The reason I bought the gage is I needed a way monitor the fine tuning the AFR (air/fuel ratio) for my custom turbo installation on my GEO engine. The engine on my plane came as a normally aspirated GEO (Suzuki) engine. The stock engine control unit ( the ECU) can take care of up to 5 psi boost "automatically". I wanted a little bit more than 5 (more like 7-8 psi). Therefore, I used a common practice in the hotrod field is to "trick" the engine into thinking it is COLD, thereby adding more fuel. You do this by replacing the coolant temperature sensor with a simple circuit where you can determine the resistance the sensor 'was' going to send to the ECU. BY increasing the resistance, the ECU thinks the engine is cold. This is known as the CTS mod (coolant temperature sensor mod). This method allows one to add a mild turbocharger to an otherwise non-turboed engine fairly easily. In addition to the obvious boost gage to monitor turbo boost, you need an AFR gage to determine you're not running too lean. If you are=85.you just dial in some more "artificial cold" to the ECU, and it increases the fuel injector's pulses, enriching the fuel supply to the engine. Anyway, that's how I came across them. They seem to make quality products. I thought the 'smart battery charger' might be useful to some pilots who carry several gadgets with them and could use a great 'safety' back-up charger. FWIW. Mike Welch ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 30, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AFR Meter
At 12:31 PM 8/30/2013, you wrote: >I suppose I should know about them, but I'm not familiar with >measuring the air-fuel ratio. The technique is apparently used with >automotive racing engines to fine tune the air fuel mixture to >optimize power output. >Does anyone know if that concept and equipment has been applied to >an OBAM aircraft? >It sounds like an interesting and plausible concept. >Stan Sutterfield >Reno Race 84 An engine guru explained the O2 sensor this Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 30, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: AFR Meter
Mark Langford has a Corvair/KR2 site that tells his experience using an O2 sensor tofine tune thefuel mixture. Well worth the time to look at if you're considering an O2 sensor. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 08/30/2013 12:31 PM, speedy11(at)aol.com wrote: > I suppose I should know about them, but I'm not familiar with > measuring the air-fuel ratio. The technique is apparently used with > automotive racing engines to fine tune the air fuel mixture to > optimize power output. > Does anyone know if that concept and equipment has been applied to an > OBAM aircraft? > It sounds like an interesting and plausible concept. > Stan Sutterfield > Reno Race 84 > > > snip... I'm already familiar with them and they make good stuff! > > The company is called PLX Devices, and they make incredible high quality > products, > gages, > > etc, mostly for the auto industry. > > snip... > > > > Mike Welch > > > I can attest to the high quality, simple operation of the PLX's Air Fuel Ratio > Meter. Probably the simplest, no-brainer way to tune EFI. I installed a Simple > Digital Systems EFI on a Franklin 6 cylinder and set it up using the PLX device. > Amounted to putting a temporary O2 sensor in the 3 into 1 collector on one > cylinder bank and connecting to the PLX device (velcroed to my panel) and gauge. > Start the engine and your real-time air fuel ratio is displayed. Change the > mixture (fuel value) on the EFI and watch the gauge reflect the change. Set > it up for 12.5 to 1 max power at 250 RPM increments in the useable RPM range. > Took about 15 minutes to map the 5 point rpm fuel curve. > When I was done, I had the feeling that it couldn't be that simple. > It was. > The gauge is nice looking with it's digital display and progressive LED > "needle", > > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 30, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AFR Meter
At 12:31 PM 8/30/2013, you wrote: >I suppose I should know about them, but I'm not familiar with >measuring the air-fuel ratio. The technique is apparently used with >automotive racing engines to fine tune the air fuel mixture to >optimize power output. >Does anyone know if that concept and equipment has been applied to >an OBAM aircraft? >It sounds like an interesting and plausible concept. >Stan Sutterfield >Reno Race 84 An engine guru explained the O2 sensor to me at OSH a few years back. It response to the presence of any oxygen in the exhaust gas stream and unless fitted with an electrical heater, doesn't give out useful information until it's warmed up by the exhaust. The output voltage is a function of oxygen concentration . . . so any mixture running lean will use up all the fuel with oxygen left over . . . hence some voltage will be generated. Stoichiometric mixture will produce zero volts . . . mixture richer than stoichiometric will also produce zero volts. These sensors have been used on OBAM aircraft for many years. Contrary to popular myth, leaded fuel doesn't seem to 'clog them up' . . . I've met two pilots flying them in 100LL fueled aircraft with useful performance. In both cases, adjusting mixture for xx.x millivolts on a display produced an accurate and repeatable setting of 'xx degress lean of peak' . . . The agile fuel injection computer can be fitted with mathematical smarts to extrapolate injector timing for performance goals on the rich side of stoichiometric. The output voltage is, as I recall, small . . . tens of millivolts. Useful application usually calls for some active signal conditioning for presentation on a display. The short answer is, "Yes, an automotive O2 sensor can be a significant component of your operating design goals. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Alternator Putting out Max Current
From: "ChangDriver" <capav8r(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 30, 2013
I have a 35 Amp B&C alternator on an experimental aircraft. Also installed is the B&C regulator. I went thru the troubleshooting guide and all voltages are in spec. But, when running the engine at takeoff power, the alternator is putting out 35 amps. Bus voltage is regulated at 28.8 but the current is maxed out. This has never happened before. Any insight into where to look for the problem, Thanks!! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407797#407797 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 30, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator Putting out Max Current
At 08:01 PM 8/30/2013, you wrote: > >I have a 35 Amp B&C alternator on an experimental aircraft. Also >installed is the B&C regulator. I went thru the troubleshooting >guide and all voltages are in spec. But, when running the engine at >takeoff power, the alternator is putting out 35 amps. Bus voltage >is regulated at 28.8 but the current is maxed out. This has never >happened before. Any insight into where to look for the problem, If the voltage is normal (I presume this is a 28v airplane) and the alternator is maxed out after starting the engine then your battery is probably dead and the alternator is running full bore to get it recharged. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Alternator Putting out Max Current
From: "ChangDriver" <capav8r(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 31, 2013
Bob: Thanks. Actually the battery is new. 28 v system. The alternator (SK 35) is putting out no current at idle. As RPM increases, the current increases. At approx. 1200 rpm 10 amps, 1500 rpm 15 amps, 2000 rpm 22 amps, etc up to maxing out at t/o rpm or 2500 rpm (radial engine). Craig Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407806#407806 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 31, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator Putting out Max Current
At 05:12 AM 8/31/2013, you wrote: > >Bob: > >Thanks. Actually the battery is new. 28 v system. The alternator >(SK 35) is putting out no current at idle. As RPM increases, the >current increases. At approx. 1200 rpm 10 amps, 1500 rpm 15 amps, >2000 rpm 22 amps, etc up to maxing out at t/o rpm or 2500 rpm >(radial engine). > >Craig > Okay. If your reading the proper bus voltage under load, then the regulator is working. The alternator's output is RPM limited so as you increase rpm, the AVAILABLE output current will rise to a maximum of the alternator's nameplate rating. If the bus voltage is correct and alternator is delivering a lot of current, then something is LOADING the alternator . . . either a discharged battery, operating accessories or a combination of both. Do you have a battery charger/maintainer that you can put on the battery overnight so that we can start with a KNOWN topped-off battery to do some tests? Is this a 'new' condition . . . in other words, has this airplane flown with a normally operating system? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: AFR Meter
From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net>
Date: Aug 31, 2013
[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"] .... These sensors have been used on OBAM aircraft for many years. Contrary to popular myth, leaded fuel doesn't seem to 'clog them up' . . . I've met two pilots flying them in 100LL fueled aircraft with useful performance. ... The short answer is, "Yes, an automotive O2 sensor can be a significant component of your operating design goals. Bob . . . > [b] I used Decalin (sp?) lead scavenger from ACS in my 100LL fuel during fuel mapping to prevent lead clogging of the $70 + Bosch O2 sensor. If you want to run a fully functioning altitude compensating EFI, then you need to leave the O2 sensor in the exhaust stream. I used the sensor just to set up my EFI for 12.5 to 1 AFR at max power and will do conventional fine tuning/leaning at Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407813#407813 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Alternator Putting out Max Current
From: "ChangDriver" <capav8r(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 01, 2013
Bob: Well I went thru the B&C troubleshooting guide and the entire system checked out. I then thought thru how a charging system works and that since the bus voltage was being held at 28.8 volts (the B&C setpoint) that it had to be something else. While the batteries were new, that does not mean fully charged. So, I ran the engine at 1200 rpm which was 12 amps of output. Ran it for 15 minutes and watched the output drop to 9 amps. This confirmed it had to be the batteries (all radios, etc off). I then ran the engine to max RPM and 24 amps was max seen. So I went and flew it for an hour and it now indicates 8 amps with radios on, etc. SO, the moral of the story was that new batteries did not imply fully charged batteries (I have 2 12V SLA batteries in series to make a 24 VDC system). Thanks for the advice!! Craig Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407842#407842 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Alternator Putting out Max Current
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 01, 2013
How do you know that the ammeter is telling the truth? Has the ammeter worked in the past? What type of ammeter is it? Is there a shunt or hall effect sensor? 28.8 volts x 35 amps = 1008 watts. That is a lot of heat going somewhere. If the heat is going into the battery, it should be too hot to touch. If not the battery, then something in the airplane is getting very warm. Have you tried shutting off loads to see if one is drawing too much current? Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407845#407845 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 01, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator Putting out Max Current
At 08:11 AM 9/1/2013, you wrote: Bob: Well I went thru the B&C troubleshooting guide and the entire system checked out. I then thought thru how a charging system works and that since the bus voltage was being held at 28.8 volts (the B&C setpoint) that it had to be something else. While the batteries were new, that does not mean fully charged. So, I ran the engine at 1200 rpm which was 12 amps of output. Ran it for 15 minutes and watched the output drop to 9 amps. This confirmed it had to be the batteries (all radios, etc off). I then ran the engine to max RPM and 24 amps was max seen. So I went and flew it for an hour and it now indicates 8 amps with radios on, etc. SO, the moral of the story was that new batteries did not imply fully charged batteries (I have 2 12V SLA batteries in series to make a 24 VDC system). Thanks for the advice!! What you have observed is a demonstration of the idea that the regulator's primary function is to take care of the battery . . . and the battery is a bucket for the storage of watt-seconds of energy. A NEW battery can be in a discharged state and present a significant opportunity for the regulator/alternator team to square off and break a sweat while topping off the bucket. Had a roofer in my driveway in Wichita a few weeks ago cursing his battery after his pickup wouldn't start. The battery's installation date WAS several years back so there was no reason to discount the possibility that the battery was bad. I put a charger on it and put 20+ amps in to the battery . . . the terminal voltage didn't even get to 14.0 volts at 20A charge rate . . . a very good sign. A soggy battery's terminal voltage will pop right up and acceptance current will rapidly decline. After 15 minutes, I load tested the battery and it readily delivered 300+ amps for 10 seconds while loaded down to 9v. I.e. the battery was healthy, just depleted. We started the truck and the battery's terminal voltage stayed down around 12.2 volts . . . i.e. the alternator was not coming on line. If the alternator HAD come on line, the terminal voltage would have almost immediately risen to 14+ volts. Had the alternator been fitted with an ammeter, it might have 'pegged' at the name-plate rating for the alternator until the battery had accepted a substantial replenishment whereupon the current would begin to taper off. What you witnessed was the good and proper operation of your ship's electrical system. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Over Voltage on Start Up
From: "dbarnes" <dbarnes78(at)comcast.net>
Date: Sep 01, 2013
I have 40 hours on my lancair es and have been trying to solve a charging problem since the first startup in july. I have a vertical power electrical system (vp-200), a b&c voltage regulator (lr3c) and an io-550n with a stock 60 amp alternator. Five seconds after engine start vertical power switches power on to the voltage regulator. The alternator comes on and vertical power senses an overvoltage and disconnects the power to the regulator. After resetting the vertical power sometimes two or three times over a 30 second time period the system holds and remains fine for the balance of the flight. I replaced the voltage regulator with an identical replacement with no change. Another clue is that when the system first starts holding in the voltage is on the high side close to 31 volts. Over time maybe ten minutes it settles down to 28.6 for the remaining flight. I also hear a faint alternator squeal in my headset. I am using two odyssey pc535 12 volt batteries in series and they are at the rear of the plane connected with #2 welding cable The odyssey batteries are four years old but have been kept charged with a smart charger. I wondered whether a bad diode in the alternator could cause this? Anyone have any ideas? Thanks, Dan Barnes Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407863#407863 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 01, 2013
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: AFR Meter
I'd suggest that the life of the O2 sensor is indeed significantly shortened running on leaded fuel. Also significantly shortened if it runs too hot such as installed in the automotive location and subjected to continuous relatively high power aircraft operation. Shielding them helps. The classic narrow band sensor could be thought of as almost a stoichometric switch outputting between 0 and 1 volt. Easilly seen with a Digital Volt Meter. Useful for setting a 14.7:1 gasolene stoichometric mixture to keep a catalytic converter happy or for indicating which side of stoichometric any engine is running at. The modern Air Fuel Ratio sensor (wide band sensor) will give the actual mixture but these require somewhat sophisticated electronic control and signal conditioning. Prices have come down to as low as a couple of hundred dollars but these are definitely not the cheap under $100. bar graph displays driven by a LM3914 chip that one sees advertised. Both types of sensors have been used in OBAM aircraft. Useful for tuning but I consider them unsuitable to run continuously on avgas even when using a lead scavenger such as Decalin. Ken On 30/08/2013 7:39 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 12:31 PM 8/30/2013, you wrote: >> I suppose I should know about them, but I'm not familiar with >> measuring the air-fuel ratio. The technique is apparently used with >> automotive racing engines to fine tune the air fuel mixture to >> optimize power output. >> Does anyone know if that concept and equipment has been applied to an >> OBAM aircraft? >> It sounds like an interesting and plausible concept. >> Stan Sutterfield >> Reno Race 84 > > An engine guru explained the O2 sensor to me > at OSH a few years back. It response to the > presence of any oxygen in the exhaust gas stream > and unless fitted with an electrical heater, > doesn't give out useful information until it's > warmed up by the exhaust. > > The output voltage is a function of oxygen > concentration . . . so any mixture running > lean will use up all the fuel with oxygen > left over . . . hence some voltage will > be generated. Stoichiometric mixture will > produce zero volts . . . mixture richer > than stoichiometric will also produce zero > volts. > > These sensors have been used on OBAM aircraft > for many years. Contrary to popular myth, leaded > fuel doesn't seem to 'clog them up' . . . I've > met two pilots flying them in 100LL fueled aircraft > with useful performance. In both cases, adjusting > mixture for xx.x millivolts on a display produced > an accurate and repeatable setting of 'xx degress > lean of peak' . . . > > The agile fuel injection computer can be fitted > with mathematical smarts to extrapolate injector > timing for performance goals on the rich side of > stoichiometric. > > The output voltage is, as I recall, small . . . > tens of millivolts. Useful application usually > calls for some active signal conditioning > for presentation on a display. > > The short answer is, "Yes, an automotive O2 > sensor can be a significant component of your > operating design goals. > > > Bob . . . > > * > > > * > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 01, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Over Voltage on Start Up
I have 40 hours on my lancair es and have been trying to solve a charging problem since the first startup in july. I have a vertical power electrical system (vp-200), a b&c voltage regulator (lr3c) and an io-550n with a stock 60 amp alternator. Five seconds after engine start vertical power switches power on to the voltage regulator. The alternator comes on and vertical power senses an overvoltage and disconnects the power to the regulator. After resetting the vertical power sometimes two or three times over a 30 second time period the system holds and remains fine for the balance of the flight. I replaced the voltage regulator with an identical replacement with no change. Another clue is that when the system first starts holding in the voltage is on the high side close to 31 volts. There's something fundamentally wrong here. The voltage should NEVER be higher than the regulator's set-point. Readings of 31 volts suggests that the regulator is not getting 'real' bus voltage sample which is critical to proper operation. Attach a (+) lead of a voltmeter to the regulator's bus voltage sense terminal (#3) and the (-) lead to regulator ground terminal (#7). Tell us what you read when the VP screen is reporting 31 volts. It sounds like the regulator 'believes' it's doing a good thing while in fact, the data it's operating on is bogus. How is the regulator grounded? Where does terminal (#3) get it's power? Over time maybe ten minutes it settles down to 28.6 for the remaining flight. I also hear a faint alternator squeal in my headset. I am using two odyssey pc535 12 volt batteries in series and they are at the rear of the plane connected with #2 welding cable This has the 'smell' of a grounding issue where battery recharge currents are polluting the regulator's ground reference causing it to operate at something other than the set-point. Try dismounting the regulator, disconnect existing wire from terminal #7 and run a test wire from #7 to the crankcase. I'm thinking that you may see the ov condition disappear. Can you describe your ground system for us? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 02, 2013
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Low voltage indicator with dual alternators
The Z-14, my kitchen sink, and operations with an interconnected dual bus redux: Bob, you said somewhere below: "As you have deduced, running them in parallel during normal operations has the potential for obscuring failure of one of the alternators." 'duh, yeah... During my 2nd annual condition inspection on my RV10 I found a fatigued ring terminal on my secondary alternator because I didn't leave enough slack in the 8AWG wire. The magnitude of movement between the hind end of the B&C 20amp pad mounted alternator and the firewall is probably as large as between any other part proximal to the firewall. It was still conducting but probably with high resistance. There were signs of shrink tube melting from heat. It may be the root cause of my charging problems which now includes a dead Odyssey 680 battery and the need to operate with both electrical buses interconnected. The good news is that your very robust Z-14 design just went on functioning at 100% for way too many hours while this guileless pilot flew on wondering what was going on while killing a battery and adding a TCW Intelligent Power Stabilizer. My first flight after replacing the lead and swapping batteries resulted in everything working as expected. My essential 'kitchen sink' will run 'forever' on one 2 year old PC680 battery. The engine starts effortlessly with the buses interconnected, and both buses have normal voltage indications during normal non-interconnected operations. Thanks for the help, insight, and the elegant Z-14. Bill "learning to maintain the plane, step by step" Watson On 7/8/2013 12:58 PM, Bill Watson wrote: > > > On 7/6/2013 9:31 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> >> >>> I have the same setup and that's how it works. That is, the low >>> voltage light simply monitors the voltage on the bus independent of >>> alternator operation. Given that, I've wondered how a failed >>> alternator would manifest itself. >> >> What architecture are we talking about? Z-12 or Z-14? >> With independent buses for each alternator, the two >> systems are normally operated with the cross-feed OPEN. >> Each LV montior will tell the condition of it's respective >> bus. > It's a Z-14 >> >> >>> - If failure was due to an overvoltage situation, the breaker would >>> pop. Since I normally fly with the 2 buses interconnected >> >> Not recommended. > I see what you mean. >> >>> I would expect the low voltage lights to remain off perhaps for the >>> remainder of the flight. If one did come on because bus voltage >>> dropped below the threshold, I would expect both to come on more or >>> less simultaneously as long as the buses were interconnected. The >>> only explicit indication of Alt failure would be the popped OV breaker. >> >> The design goals for Z-14 were two-fold. (1) >> being able to parallel batteries for engine >> cranking and (2) being able to share power between >> systems in the event of an alternator failure. >> >> As you have deduced, running them in parallel >> during normal operations has the potential for >> obscuring failure of one of the alternators. > My operational goals for the Z-14 included being able to run much of > the panel on one battery while still having a fully charged battery > for starting. The idea being that I wanted to be able to enter flight > plans and even check weather before engine start. That's worked out > well. I can connect the buses for starts if needed and that works > well as well. However, I normally start with the buses separated > because if I go parallel, the voltage drop causes my 3 MDFs to re-boot. >> >>> - Are there other modes of Alternator failure where there would be >>> no explicit indication of failure? I'm thinking that a snapped belt >>> would be an example. If loads and battery condition were such that >>> the interconnected bus voltage stayed above the low volt threshold, >>> there would be no explicit indication. Is that right? >> >> Yes. Another reason for running them independently >> of each other for normal flight ops. With the crossfeed >> closed, you have a Z-12 with dual batteries. Unless >> one alternator is configured for stand-by operation by >> incorporation of the appropriate regulator, then you >> have two alternators in a paralleled mode of operation >> controlled by regulators not designed for paralleling >> (current management) of the two alternators. >> > I'll be going back to running independent. I know what got me started > running with the buses interconnected but I lost track of what this > robust configuration is designed to do. > > Thanks Bob! > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Over Voltage on Start Up
From: "dbarnes" <dbarnes78(at)comcast.net>
Date: Sep 02, 2013
Starting at the battery a #2 cable goes to the inside of the fire wall to a plate with a field of spade connectors then through a 5/16 inch brass bolt to the engine side of the firewall to another field of spade connectors and also to one of the starter mounting bolts through a large braided cable. The regulator is on the engine side of the firewall and gets its ground from one of the spade connectors. Originally I had the sense line of the regulator hooked to a dedicated output from vertical power. In trying to solve this problem I moved it to the battery positive bolt on the firewall (through a small fuse). At first it seemed to solve the problem but the charging voltage was too low. When I adjusted higher I was back to the same problem. I am going to the hanger this pm and will try an alternate ground to the engine block and extend wires into the plane to measure the sense voltage and compare it to the vp displayed voltage. Thanks, Dan Barnes Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407925#407925 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 02, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Question regarding AEC figure Z-11
At 09:44 PM 9/1/2013, you wrote: >Hi Bob, > >Well, the last couple days I've been reconsidering what equipment is >truly necessary for continued operation to safe arrival at an >airport. I've revised my endurance bus list as follows: > > * GDU375 (G3X display unit and GPS nav), 0.6A typical, 1.1A max > * GSU25 (G3X ADHARS and magnetometer), 0.2A > * GEA24 (G3X engine information unit), 0.43A max > * GTX327 Transponder, 1.5A > * 2 x LED panel flood, less than.1A > * Radio, 7.5A max, .6A typical Rx, 3.0A typical Tx >Here's the rationale behind these choices. The G3X system is a >pretty low draw and contains my main nav and instrument indications >so I figured I might as well keep the whole thing online. The engine >instruments may not be absolutely necessary, but the eng instrument >LRU draws less than half and amp. The one I'm still debating is the >radio. It's the highest current consumer of the bunch, but really >only when transmitting. Figure I can have it on the e-bus and then >if things are real tight, just switch it off How long would you like to fly before things 'get tight'? What are your battery-only endurance goals? >. I can turn the main bus back on when it's time to land to access >the fuel pump and flap so I'll leave those off the e-bus. Of course, >the e-ign will be on the always hot battery bus. Okay, what's the cruising flight current draw on the ignition system? I get about 2.4A continuous draw with the e-bus list above. >Thanks for your help. I'm sure you're quite busy so I appreciate you >taking time to review my plan! No problem . . . it's what we do. What size battery is installed? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Broadcast Radio Bleedover on Transceiver
From: "mike>bentley" <mikeeeb(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 02, 2013
Seems to be coming through from the headsets. It's not near as bad when I disconnect the co pilots headset. I wonder if an external ground to the intercom box would help. -------- Mike Bentley Joplin, MO N5498B Model 4-1200 (Flying) Jabiru 2200 Rotec Aerosport LCH Heads GT Prop Ellison EFS-2 Throttle Body Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407935#407935 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 03, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Broadcast Radio Bleedover on Transceiver
At 03:18 PM 9/2/2013, you wrote: > >Seems to be coming through from the headsets. It's not near as bad >when I disconnect the co pilots headset. I wonder if an external >ground to the intercom box would help. ADDING grounds almost never helps . . . getting all the existing grounds in the RIGHT place may have a profound difference. This sounds like a classic AM demodulation condition common to many audio systems with poor ground architecture or even vulnerable audio inputs. Does it happen at other locations or just your home airport? Is there a high power AM broadcast station nearby? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 03, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Over Voltage on Start Up
At 11:15 AM 9/2/2013, you wrote: > >Starting at the battery a #2 cable goes to the inside of the fire >wall to a plate with a field of spade connectors then through a 5/16 >inch brass bolt to the engine side of the firewall to another field >of spade connectors and also to one of the starter mounting bolts >through a large braided cable. The regulator is on the engine side >of the firewall and gets its ground from one of the spade >connectors. Originally I had the sense line of the regulator hooked >to a dedicated output from vertical power. In trying to solve this >problem I moved it to the battery positive bolt on the firewall >(through a small fuse). At first it seemed to solve the problem but >the charging voltage was too low. When I adjusted higher I was back >to the same problem. > >I am going to the hanger this pm and will try an alternate ground to >the engine block and extend wires into the plane to measure the >sense voltage and compare it to the vp displayed voltage. Very good. Your ground system appears righteous. But there's something going on that confuses or fools the regulator's otherwise clear view of the universe. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Over Voltage on Start Up
From: "dbarnes" <dbarnes78(at)comcast.net>
Date: Sep 03, 2013
Bob, I tested the voltage on the sense terminal to the ground terminal on the regulator. It seemed to match the display on the vertical power. They both measured over 30 volts. The io-550 uses a direct drive alternator. I didn't have an additional ground wire on it so I added that. I took a #8 wire from the case ground to the engine block. Another plane I looked at had that so I added it. No change. Any chance the regulator is seeing too much ac from the alternator and it is confusing it? I have read in the car world that leaky, open, shorted diodes sometimes cause strange problems. Thanks, Dan Barnes Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407985#407985 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: KT 76 Installation Manual
From: "mariasam" <mariasam180(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 03, 2013
Seems to be coming through from the headsets. It's not near as bad when I disconnect the co pilots headset. I wonder if an external ground to the intercom box would help. :P [Laughing] -------- maria Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407997#407997 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Question regarding AEC figure Z-11
At 09:40 AM 9/4/2013, you wrote: >Hi Bob, > >I couldn't find an exact number on the current consumption of the >Light Speed ignition in their documentation but a search of Vans Air >Force suggests that it's around 1.5 to 2A max. Okay, if it's a Lightspeed, I can tell you that the cruising current draw is on the order of 2.2A > > >The battery is a Odessy PC680 17Ah battery. > >I added up the e-bus draw and get 3.4 A (assuming Rx on the radio >most of the time). > >Total current draw including the e-bus and e-ign would be 5.4 Amps. >So under ideal battery conditions the electrical endurance is 3h >09min. I feel like that is pretty good. Even with a degraded >battery, that should provide enough time to at least get to an >airport. I would want a minumum 1.5 hrs endurance. What do you think? Keep in mind that the a.h. rating of a battery is almost never stated at the load current for your design. Most of the batteries are rated at a 20Hr discharge rate. When discharged faster, they lose more energy to internal heating and the useful output drops. An exemplar 17 a.h. battery will deliver 5A for just over 2 hours . . . WHEN NEW. If you plan to replace when the capacity drops to 75% of new, then your end of battery life endurance is more like 1.6 hours . . . so this battery seems to fit your design goals. Emacs! Adding an SD-8 alternator and making it a Z-13/8 would eliminate all concerns for battery capacity and the need to periodically test it for continued airworthiness. >Also, I have another question. The previous owner who started this >project did a lot of the firewall forward wiring and he used bus bar >to connect the contractors, current limiter and starter contractor >together. Is this a normal practice? Is it ok to have all those high >current paths exposed like that? Similar to the picture below: Yes. This is done on a lot of production aircraft too. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2013
From: Linda Walker <l.p(at)talk21.com>
Subject: Transmitting causes transponder to turn off
Bob, and others.=0A=0AWonder if you might comment on the following issue. =0AYesterday while transmitting on our Garmin 530 the GTX 330 transponder t urned itself off.=0AThis happened three times, before- it didn't happen a gain, strange.=0AThey have separate power supply wires through fuses from t he same bus.=0AAny ideas much appreciated.=0ARegards.=0APatrick Elliott.=0A G-LGEZ.=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Question regarding AEC figure Z-11
At 11:06 AM 9/4/2013, you wrote: >Hi Bob, > >Right, I forgot about the different battery discharge rates varying >with current draw! I promise I did read the chapter on batteries. :) Easy to miss . . . >I'm going to look more closely at the Z-13/8 system and see what I >what would need to change (and buy) to make that happen. The installation is stone simple. No re-wiring of Z-11. Z-13/8 simply adds another layer on top of Z-11 that offers unlimited endurance at 8A thus saving 100% of battery content for descent and approach to landing. Added weight to the airplane is right at 4 pounds. Installation hardware is . . . http://www.bandc.biz/alternator8ampshomebuilt.aspx http://www.bandc.biz/pmovfilterandovprotectionkit14v.aspx Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Transmitting causes transponder to turn off
At 01:16 PM 9/4/2013, you wrote: >Bob, and others. >Wonder if you might comment on the following issue. >Yesterday while transmitting on our Garmin 530 the GTX 330 >transponder turned itself off. >This happened three times, before it didn't happen again, strange. >They have separate power supply wires through fuses from the same bus. >Any ideas much appreciated. Has this ever happened before? How many hours on the system? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 2013
From: Linda Walker <l.p(at)talk21.com>
Subject: Transmitting causes transponder to turn off
=0ABob.=0AFirst time it has happened in almost 500 hours of operation.=0A =0AMy initial thought was that, as transmitting takes more power than just receiving, it might be causing a power transient in the shared bus.=0AHow w ould I check if this is the case?=0APatrick Elliott.=0AG-LGEZ=0A=0A=0A=0ATi electric.com>=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transmitting causes transpo nder to turn- off=0A=0A=0AAt 01:16 PM 9/4/2013, you wrote:=0A>Bob, and o thers.=0A>Wonder if you might comment on the following issue.=0A>Yesterday while transmitting on our Garmin 530 the GTX 330 =0A>transponder turned its elf off.=0A>This happened three times, before- it didn't happen again, st range.=0A>They have separate power supply wires through fuses from the same bus.=0A>Any ideas much appreciated.=0A=0A- - Has this ever happened be fore? How many hours=0A- - on the system?=0A=0A=0A- Bob . . . =0A=0A =========================0A ====================== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Transmitting causes transponder to turn off
Date: Sep 05, 2013
Patrick, This happened to me when I had too many things sharing the same bus. Have you recently added something that could have caused an overloaded condition? Bill _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Linda Walker Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 4:37 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Transmitting causes transponder to turn off Bob. First time it has happened in almost 500 hours of operation. My initial thought was that, as transmitting takes more power than just receiving, it might be causing a power transient in the shared bus. How would I check if this is the case? Patrick Elliott. G-LGEZ From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transmitting causes transponder to turn off At 01:16 PM 9/4/2013, you wrote: >Bob, and others. >Wonder if you might comment on the following issue. >Yesterday while transmitting on our Garmin 530 the GTX 330 >transponder turned itself off. >This happened three times, before it didn't happen again, strange. >They have separate power supply wires through fuses from the same bus. >Any ideas much appreciated. Has this ever happened before? How many hours on the system? Bob href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" target="_btp://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Transmitting causes transponder to turn off
At 03:36 AM 9/5/2013, you wrote: >Bob. >First time it has happened in almost 500 hours of operation. > >My initial thought was that, as transmitting takes more power than >just receiving, it might be causing a power transient in the shared bus. >How would I check if this is the case? >Patrick Elliott. >G-LGEZ Can you describe the architecture of your electrical system? Alternator and battery sizes . . . what kind of airplane? Do you have a voltmeter in the airplane and are the reading(s) normal? The added load on a bus by the transmitter is a pittance compared to the size of your alternator . . . there's no rational reason for an 'overload' condition. If it were an overloading situation, then turning on your landing lights (assuming incandescent lamps) would impose a transient many times greater on the bus . . . but a transient that Garmin says is no big deal by virtue of their DO-160 qualification testing. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Transmitting causes transponder to turn off
At 07:41 AM 9/5/2013, you wrote: >Patrick, > >This happened to me when I had too many things sharing the same >bus. Have you recently added something that could have caused an >overloaded condition? > >Bill > Was this with the Garmin transponder? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Lightspeed Plasma III current curves
It took awhile to find the plot . . . but here's a set of curves for current draw taken in the laboratory on a number of Plasma III ignition systems. Emacs! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Transmitting causes transponder to turn off
Date: Sep 05, 2013
Yes, GTX 327. Bill _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 11:29 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Transmitting causes transponder to turn off At 07:41 AM 9/5/2013, you wrote: Patrick, This happened to me when I had too many things sharing the same bus. Have you recently added something that could have caused an overloaded condition? Bill Was this with the Garmin transponder? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
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SATISFACTION GUARANTEED Contact Name : Stephen Clive Murray Email : murtenltd(at)musetr.com Skype : murtenltd Web :: murten.miiduu.com BBM 24Hrs Chat : 27D4D1EE MGT Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408092#408092 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 2013
From: Linda Walker <l.p(at)talk21.com>
Subject: Transmitting causes transponder to turn off
Bob.=0AElectrical system architecture of our Long-EZ is based on the old Z- 13 of 11/01- (page Z-11) with a 60 amp B&C alternator and their 32 AH bat tery, sized for long overwater legs.=0AI have the Vision MicroSystems VM100 0 engine display that includes a voltmeter, which on recent examination is reading incorrectly.=0AI am about to do a test flight with a multimeter tem porarily in place to read what the VMS should be reading, and will report b ack.=0AThanks for your help.=0APatrick Elliott.=0AG-LGEZ=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____ ____________________________=0A=0A________________________________- Messa US=0AFrom: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>=0ASub ject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transmitting causes transponder to turn- of f=0A=0A=0AAt 03:36 AM 9/5/2013, you wrote:=0A=0A>Bob.=0A>First time it has happened in almost 500 hours of operation.=0A>=0A>My initial thought was th at, as transmitting takes more power than =0A>just receiving, it might be c ausing a power transient in the shared bus.=0A>How would I check if this is the case?=0A>Patrick Elliott.=0A>G-LGEZ=0A=0A- - Can you describe the architecture of your electrical=0A- - system? Alternator and battery si zes . . . what kind=0A- - of airplane? Do you have a voltmeter in the a irplane=0A- - and are the reading(s) normal?=0A=0A- - The added loa d on a bus by the transmitter is a pittance=0A- - compared to the size of your alternator . . . there's=0A- - no rational reason for an 'overl oad' condition. If=0A- - it were an overloading situation, then turning on your=0A- - landing lights (assuming incandescent lamps) would=0A- - impose a transient many times greater on the bus . . .=0A- - but a transient that Garmin says is no big deal by=0A- - virtue of their DO- 160 qualification testing.=0A=0A=0A- Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Transmitting causes transponder to turn off
At 03:50 AM 9/6/2013, you wrote: >Bob. >Electrical system architecture of our Long-EZ is based on the old >Z-13 of 11/01 (page Z-11) with a 60 amp B&C alternator and their 32 >AH battery, sized for long overwater legs. >I have the Vision MicroSystems VM1000 engine display that includes a >voltmeter, which on recent examination is reading incorrectly. >I am about to do a test flight with a multimeter temporarily in >place to read what the VMS should be reading, and will report back. >Thanks for your help. >Patrick Elliott. >G-LGEZ Hmmmm . . . when one appliance 'talks' to another and induces it to unseemly behaviors, there is at least a suggestion of an architecture problem. In plastic airplanes, the potential for mischievous collaboration is doubled by the need for both power and GROUND busses. So far, the only reported incidents of xponder shutdown due to keying of the VHF comm have cited the Garmin products. I'm reluctant to believe that their due diligence to DO-160 compatibility failed . . . but it has happened. The fact that only one model of transponder has been cited for these occurrences is curious. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Lightspeed Plasma III current curves
From: "hotwheels" <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Sep 06, 2013
I have dual LSE Plasma IIIs. Here are the current draw numbers Klaus shared recently for Box version "B". Your mileage may vary depending upon box vintage... Box on, engine off: ~0.2A Engine at idle power: ~0.8-0.9A Engine at cruise power: ~2A Regards, Jay N433RV RV-10 ... Flying! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408157#408157 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Lightspeed Plasma III current curves
From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net>
Date: Sep 06, 2013
As Jay uses the singular "Box Version B". I assume the current draw would be double for dual LSE III's . Correct? John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408160#408160 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 2013
From: Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Subject: Re: Lightspeed Plasma III current curves
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Lightspeed Plasma III current curves
From: "nuckollsr" <bob.nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Date: Sep 06, 2013
2.0 at 'cruise' is consistent with the data taken assuming that you cruise at 2200 rpm and the electronics package is in a 75F ambient. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408188#408188 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Terminal ID?
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Sep 08, 2013
I'm hooking up the the CHT/EGT probes to my Grand Rapids EIS. I had a couple bad crimps on the male spade connectors but I didn't have enough spares. GR sent me some extras but they changed to a different style and those don't work in my AMP 47386-R crimping tool. I've poked around on Mouser, but all I can find are ring and butt splice. No luck on tabs. Any suggestions on a PN? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408229#408229 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/569a_158.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2013
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Subject: Re: Terminal ID?
Probes do seem to have varying connectors. Those for EI probes have a bit of a bump in the middle but both male and female are fast-on fully insulated. On Dynon the insulation is rounder, and the male spades do not have insulation over the spade, just the crimp area. I have had some luck matching up what I needed for extras at either Radio Shack or Home Depot, just being careful to only select ones with translucent nylon insulation, not opaque vinyl. Haven't run into ones that don't use same crimp as any other ring or fast-on terminal. Seems odd that they would supply a connector that doesn't use a standard crimp. On 9/8/2013 6:49 AM, donjohnston wrote: > > I'm hooking up the the CHT/EGT probes to my Grand Rapids EIS. I had a couple bad crimps on the male spade connectors but I didn't have enough spares. GR sent me some extras but they changed to a different style and those don't work in my AMP 47386-R crimping tool. > > I've poked around on Mouser, but all I can find are ring and butt splice. No luck on tabs. > > Any suggestions on a PN? > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408229#408229 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/569a_158.jpg > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: De-Slumpifier, Voltage Buffer to Prevent Brownout
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Sep 08, 2013
I built and tested the 12V De-Slumpifier and it behaves very well with no surprises. I don't have a publishable test protocol, but for general purposes this is a good design that can be used for many anti-slump applications. If there is sufficient interest, I will make a PCB and maybe a kit of parts. Note how much space remains inside the box. The 35W resistor and heatsink and one diode is under the perf board. I added an optional LED indicator. The supercaps behave almost exactly like a 250,000 uF/20V capacitor bank which used to fit into a suitcase. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408239#408239 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/slumpless_12v_buffer_136.pdf http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1000038_899.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1000037_104.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Alternator Whine in Radio Transmit
From: "Ron Lendon" <ron.lendon(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 08, 2013
Bob, I have the WW Corvair engine in a 601XLB and have 180 hours on it. I used your design with the JD alternator and replaced the voltage regulator/rectifier with the B&C unit "PMR1C-14". At about 170 hours the filter cap 10,000uF gave up and the ATC folks started to complain. I have replaced the Cap and now that I know about the whine I find I can switch off the alternator during transmit and it is as clear as a bell. With the alternator switched on it does have a whine that is tolerable, but it still has a whine. What steps can I take to eliminate the whine from the alternator and leave it switched on? Be gentle, I'm a metal worker not an electrician. -------- Ron Lendon, Detroit, MI WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing CH 601 XLB N601LT - Flying http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Corvair Engine Prints: http://www.zenith.aero/profile/RonLendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408242#408242 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 09, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Lightspeed Plasma III current curves
At 11:34 AM 9/6/2013, you wrote: > >As Jay uses the singular "Box Version B". I assume the current draw >would be double for dual LSE III's . Correct? > >John Yes . . . that is PER system . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 09, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator Whine in Radio Transmit
At 06:11 PM 9/8/2013, you wrote: > >Bob, > >I have the WW Corvair engine in a 601XLB and have 180 hours on >it. I used your design with the JD alternator and replaced the >voltage regulator/rectifier with the B&C unit "PMR1C-14". At about >170 hours the filter cap 10,000uF gave up and the ATC folks started >to complain. > >I have replaced the Cap and now that I know about the whine I find I >can switch off the alternator during transmit and it is as clear as >a bell. With the alternator switched on it does have a whine that >is tolerable, but it still has a whine. > >What steps can I take to eliminate the whine from the alternator and >leave it switched on? > >Be gentle, I'm a metal worker not an electrician. It's it only on transmit? Do you hear it in the headsets for receiving other stations? Suggest you check the microphone and headset jacks for being grounded to the panel . . . these should be insulated from the panel and grounded through wires back to the intercom. You can get insulating washers from B&C http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/Audio/Jack_Insu Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Alternator Whine in Radio Transmit
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 09, 2013
Link to B & C insulating washers for headset and mic jacks. http://www.bandc.biz/insulatingwasherset1pair.aspx -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408271#408271 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Alternator Whine in Radio Transmit
From: "Ron Lendon" <ron.lendon(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 09, 2013
The head sets jacks are insulated and grounded back to the single point ground with everything else. Do I need to move that ground wire directly to the intercom unit? -------- Ron Lendon WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing CH 601 XLB N601LT - Flying http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Corvair Engine Prints: http://www.zenith.aero/profile/RonLendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408300#408300 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 10, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: soldering steel stud into lead clamp.
Greetings, I have a lead battery clamp with a threaded hole that I want to put a stud into. Can I just solder apiece of steel threaded rod into the lead hole?? I'm guessing brass or bronze would be better, but I've got the steel in stock. Any guidance on doing it, if it's acceptable, would be appreciated. -- Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R. curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: soldering steel stud into lead clamp.
Date: Sep 10, 2013
I have a lead battery clamp with a threaded hole that I want to put a stud into. Can I just solder a piece of steel threaded rod into the lead hole=3F=3F I would put in an insert then install the stud. There are a few differen t kinds available, some that screw into the hole and others that go in and expand like a pop rivet. Cabinet workers use the screw in type that have b arbs to keep them from unscrewing. (available at your local hardware store) Roger -- Do you have a slow PC=3F Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfi ghter=3Fcid=sigen ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Alternator Whine in Radio Transmit
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 10, 2013
During a phone conversation with Ron Lendon, I learned that shielded wire was not used for the mic jack. I am thinking that replacing the two individual wires with shielded cable might not help reduce the alternator whine. Bob, I would appreciate your comments on the advantages of shielded wire for the mic jack. Thanks, Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408331#408331 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 10, 2013
From: Paul Thomson <cyav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator Whine in Radio Transmit
I was planning to be over in the morning, but probably leaving early aftern oon.=0A=0A=0AWhere is the waiver doc for sign-ins?=0A=0A=0Apt=0A=0A=0A_____ ___________________________=0A From: user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com>=0ATo: aer oelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 7:33 AM =0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Whine in Radio Transmit=0A m>=0A=0ADuring a phone conversation with Ron Lendon, I learned that shielde d wire was not used for the mic jack.- I am thinking that replacing the t wo individual wires with shielded cable might not help reduce the alternato r whine.- Bob, I would appreciate your comments on the advantages of shie lded wire for the mic jack.=0AThanks, Joe=0A=0A--------=0AJoe Gores=0A=0A =0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/view =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 10, 2013
From: Paul Thomson <cyav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator Whine in Radio Transmit
Sucks when you reply to the wrong email...=0A=0Asorry=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______ _________________________=0A From: Paul Thomson <cyav8r(at)yahoo.com>=0ATo: "a eroelectric-list(at)matronics.com" =0ASent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 8:46 AM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: A lternator Whine in Radio Transmit=0A =0A=0A=0AI was planning to be over in the morning, but probably leaving early afternoon.=0A=0A=0AWhere is the wai ver doc for sign-ins?=0A=0A=0Apt=0A=0A=0A________________________________ =0A From: user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.co m =0ASent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 7:33 AM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List : Re: Alternator Whine in Radio Transmit=0A =0A=0A--> AeroElectric-List mes sage posted by: "user9253" =0A=0ADuring a phone conversa tion with Ron Lendon, I learned that shielded wire was not used for the mic jack.- I am thinking that replacing the two individual wires with shield ed cable might not help reduce the alternator whine.- Bob, I would apprec iate your comments on the advantages of shielded wire for the mic jack.=0AT hanks, Joe=0A=0A--------=0AJoe Gores=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online h ere:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408331#408331 http: //www.matronics.com/Navigat=- - - - - - - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forum s.matr - - - - - - - - - - &nbs//www.matronics.com/cont ribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.co======== ========= ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Andy Hawes <andy717(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Good Multi-Meter recommendation
Date: Sep 10, 2013
Hi folks, Looking for a good multi-meter for my project. Any recommendations? Thanks very much -- Andy Hawes Fatboy Flightworks www.fatboyflightworks.com andy717(at)comcast.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Good Multi-Meter recommendation
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: Sep 10, 2013
Andy, There are dozens of inexpensive, robust, good multimeters available from places like Radio Shack, Harbor Freight, Northern Tool, Lowe's, Home Depot, etc. Find one that has the functions you need, feels reasonably well built and buy it. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On Sep 10, 2013, at 10:15 AM, Andy Hawes wrote: Hi folks, Looking for a good multi-meter for my project. Any recommendations? Thanks very much -- Andy Hawes Fatboy Flightworks www.fatboyflightworks.com andy717(at)comcast.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Good Multi-Meter recommendation
From: Andy Hawes <andy717(at)comcast.net>
Date: Sep 10, 2013
Thanks Bob -- On Sep 10, 2013, at 10:42 AM, Robert Borger wrote: > > Andy, > > There are dozens of inexpensive, robust, good multimeters available from places like Radio Shack, Harbor Freight, Northern Tool, Lowe's, Home Depot, etc. Find one that has the functions you need, feels reasonably well built and buy it. > > Blue skies & tailwinds, > Bob Borger > Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. > Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP > 3705 Lynchburg Dr. > Corinth, TX 76208-5331 > Cel: 817-992-1117 > rlborger(at)mac.com > > On Sep 10, 2013, at 10:15 AM, Andy Hawes wrote: > > > Hi folks, > > Looking for a good multi-meter for my project. Any recommendations? > > Thanks very much -- > > > Andy Hawes > Fatboy Flightworks > www.fatboyflightworks.com > andy717(at)comcast.net > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 10, 2013
Subject: Re: Good Multi-Meter recommendation
From: Ed Gilroy <egilroy(at)gmail.com>
The best one I ever bought was a Fluke and I got it used on Craigslist for $40. There are some great used deals out there if you want something more high end. Watch out for Fluke displays on older units, but you can replace them cheaply from eBay repair kits. On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 11:55 AM, Andy Hawes wrote: > > Thanks Bob -- > > On Sep 10, 2013, at 10:42 AM, Robert Borger wrote: > > > > > > > Andy, > > > > There are dozens of inexpensive, robust, good multimeters available from > places like Radio Shack, Harbor Freight, Northern Tool, Lowe's, Home Depot, > etc. Find one that has the functions you need, feels reasonably well built > and buy it. > > > > Blue skies & tailwinds, > > Bob Borger > > Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. > > Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP > > 3705 Lynchburg Dr. > > Corinth, TX 76208-5331 > > Cel: 817-992-1117 > > rlborger(at)mac.com > > > > On Sep 10, 2013, at 10:15 AM, Andy Hawes wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi folks, > > > > Looking for a good multi-meter for my project. Any recommendations? > > > > Thanks very much -- > > > > > > Andy Hawes > > Fatboy Flightworks > > www.fatboyflightworks.com > > andy717(at)comcast.net > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 10, 2013
Subject: Re: Good Multi-Meter recommendation
From: thomas sargent <sarg314(at)gmail.com>
I used a low-end Fluke meter. It cost me about $70 (well, 10 years ago). Works very well, though the display acquired some defects after a while. I was in the electronics business for many years and we used a lot of Fluke stuff. The meters are very accurate and have nice high input impedance. I remember that when I soldered a lug on the end of my #2 battery cable I used it to try to measure the resistance while the cable was still pretty hot. I was mystified when it showed a few ohms. But as the cable cooled, the displayed resistance decreased, ultimately to 0. It was showing me the thermocouple effect in the junction between the copper and the solder! That junction was a (very wimpy) source of EMF which was throwing off the resistance measurement, but that is remarkable sensitivity in a $70 meter. On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 8:55 AM, Andy Hawes wrote: > > Thanks Bob -- > > On Sep 10, 2013, at 10:42 AM, Robert Borger wrote: > > > > > > > Andy, > > > > There are dozens of inexpensive, robust, good multimeters available from > places like Radio Shack, Harbor Freight, Northern Tool, Lowe's, Home Depot, > etc. Find one that has the functions you need, feels reasonably well built > and buy it. > > > > Blue skies & tailwinds, > > Bob Borger > > Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. > > Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP > > 3705 Lynchburg Dr. > > Corinth, TX 76208-5331 > > Cel: 817-992-1117 > > rlborger(at)mac.com > > > > On Sep 10, 2013, at 10:15 AM, Andy Hawes wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi folks, > > > > Looking for a good multi-meter for my project. Any recommendations? > > > > Thanks very much -- > > > > > > Andy Hawes > > Fatboy Flightworks > > www.fatboyflightworks.com > > andy717(at)comcast.net > > > > > > > > > > > -- Tom Sargent ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 10, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator Whine in Radio Transmit
At 07:33 AM 9/10/2013, you wrote: > >During a phone conversation with Ron Lendon, I learned that shielded >wire was not used for the mic jack. I am thinking that replacing >the two individual wires with shielded cable might not help reduce >the alternator whine. Bob, I would appreciate your comments on the >advantages of shielded wire for the mic jack. >Thanks, Joe > >-------- >Joe Gores Shielded wire is 99.9% probability of NOT being the solution. Shielding breaks a capacitive coupling between a strong antagonist wire with large, fast rise signals on it and some vulnerable victim carrying small, easily corrupted signals. Alternator noise coupled into a vulnerable system is most likely to be bus noise to a poorly qualified device, magnetically coupled from some fat wire carrying alternator current, or a ground loop. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 10, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator Whine in Radio Transmit
At 03:26 PM 9/9/2013, you wrote: > >The head sets jacks are insulated and grounded back to the single >point ground with everything else. Do I need to move that ground >wire directly to the intercom unit? Yes. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Good Multi-Meter recommendation
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Sep 11, 2013
Fluke. "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." ---Ben Franklin I have a couple special meters for odd purposes, but I usually give away off-brand multimeters and keep the Flukes. Don't buy cheap stuff. Don't buy anything from Radio Shack. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408413#408413 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Good Multi-Meter recommendation
From: "Fred Klein" <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Date: Sep 12, 2013
Eric...I like your B Franklin quote...what say you about the unit sold by B & C? Fred Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408492#408492 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Good Multi-Meter recommendation
From: Andy Hawes <andy717(at)comcast.net>
Date: Sep 12, 2013
I went ahead and bid on a Fluke 179 on eBay -- probably overkill for what I need but having the mA option might be nice for the smaller amp wiring I do (stick switches to relays). Also has a temperature probe for some hi-tech barbecuing. Worried though that the 179 is really "mint condition" as advertised, but I'll take the shot at saving $200 -- Thanks for the advice everyone -- Andy On Sep 12, 2013, at 9:14 AM, Fred Klein wrote: > > Eric...I like your B Franklin quote...what say you about the unit sold by B & C? > > Fred > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408492#408492 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Good Multi-Meter recommendation
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Sep 12, 2013
> Eric...I like your B Franklin quote...what say you about the unit sold by B & C? Fred B&C is trying to make a living and they are really nice people. If you really want a cheap meter, search "multimeter" at Deal Extreme. 1/3 the price and free fast shipping to your door. I buy lots of things from them. For LEDs, they can't be beat. For great LED flashlights, spend a few bucks with DX.com and be astonished. Some DX stuff is junk and some is amazing. Learn to take the good with the bad....it ain't worth sending DX.com stuff back. But for multimeters, I buy Flukes. My Fluke 87-V matches every digit of my Calibrators Inc. DVC 8500 Voltage Calibrator ($4500 new, 99999 millivolts. Ohhhh how my nerd heart leapt. But I bought it surplus for only $150!). -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408499#408499 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Good Multi-Meter recommendation
From: "Fred Klein" <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Date: Sep 12, 2013
Fascinating Eric...as in so many things in life, one can scratch a surface and find entire worlds... Knowing absolutely nothing about multi-meters, I thought your previous reference to "Fluke" was to an occasion when, just by a fluke, you came upon something unexpected and truly wonderful...I had no idea of the breadth of quality in multi-meters... Fred Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408501#408501 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 12, 2013
From: Matthew Schumacher <schu(at)schu.net>
Subject: Re: Good Multi-Meter recommendation
On 9/10/2013 7:15 AM, Andy Hawes wrote: > > Hi folks, > > Looking for a good multi-meter for my project. Any recommendations? > > Thanks very much -- Fluke is best, but there are other options that are plenty good enough for this application: http://www.tequipment.net/ExtechEX205T.html http://www.tequipment.net/ExtechEX230.asp http://www.tequipment.net/BK2705B.html http://www.tequipment.net/AmprobeAM-570.html I have one of these, and it's every bit fluke: http://www.tequipment.net/DranetzDMMDranTechXTRA.html You may consider a clamp on meter that will measure current as well, that's always useful when working through electrical issues: http://www.tequipment.net/ExtechMA640.asp http://www.tequipment.net/ExtechEX613.asp http://www.tequipment.net/ExtechEX830.asp http://www.tequipment.net/AmprobeACDC-52NAV.asp http://www.tequipment.net/BK325.html If it was me and I could only have one meter and couldn't swing a fluke then I would probably go with the EX830 as it's reasonably accurate and has the features I use 99% of the time. Btw, tequipment is great!!! schu ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Good Multi-Meter recommendation
Date: Sep 12, 2013
Fluke is the way to go and is what I use. IMPORTANT!!! I keep a couple of Harbor Freight $3.99 ones around just to loan out. I learned this the hard way about 20 years ago. Barry -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy Hawes Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 11:15 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Good Multi-Meter recommendation --> Hi folks, Looking for a good multi-meter for my project. Any recommendations? Thanks very much -- Andy Hawes Fatboy Flightworks www.fatboyflightworks.com andy717(at)comcast.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Good Multi-Meter recommendation
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Sep 12, 2013
Before Bob flails me for suggesting more meter than you really need for most projects--I suggest: 1) Learning how to use a meter is more important than having a super-accurate meter. 2) No, not everyone needs a Fluke 87-V. I only needed it for one special project where accuracy was critical. I usually use my cheapo Fluke 77. 3) Meters, even cheap ones, are better than ever. Off Topic: When you think you understand electronics, see Google: " You Tube M I T Walter Lewin Complete Breakdown of Intuition Part 1 " If you are really brave see Part 2. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408512#408512 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 12, 2013
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Good Multi-Meter recommendation
Barry I agree with you on this one.- I bought a Fluke 77 way back in the early 1980s, when I was a fledgling engineer at Boeing Aerospace.- The sa les rep offered them to design engineers at the same cost that Boeing paid. It is still going strong and has proven itself many times.=0A=0AThen I dec ided to "upgrade" and buy a Fluke 87 V.- Turns out it was an upgrade, but I never got rid of my 77!- I love them both!=0A=0AI did do one thing tha t hasn't been discussed here (I think).- I replace the batteries on a reg ular interval with 9VDC lithium batteries.- I do this in order to prevent an alkaline battery leak.- Yes, I'm taking a chance on having a Dreamlin er moment, but so far the vibrations in my toolbox haven't produced a failu re.- I also place a vinyl label on the meters' cases that tell me when th e batteries were replaced.- Both were replaced on 9/18/2009.- I figure I have another 2-4 years on those batteries.=0A=0AI'm not going to comment on Harbor Freight, because I think most of their stuff is trash. :)=0A=0A -=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A Fro m: Barry Davis =0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 12:36 PM=0ASubject: RE: AeroElectric- List: Good Multi-Meter recommendation=0A =0A=0A--> AeroElectric-List messag e posted by: "Barry Davis" =0A=0AFluke is the way to go and is what I use. =0AIMPORTANT!!!- I keep a couple of Harbor Freight $3 .99 ones around just to=0Aloan out. I learned this the hard way about 20 ye ars ago.=0ABarry=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: owner-aeroelectric -list-server(at)matronics.com=0A[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matroni cs.com] On Behalf Of Andy=0AHawes=0ASent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 11:15 AM=0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: Goo Andy Hawes =0A--> =0A=0AHi folks,=0A=0ALooking for a g ood multi-meter for my project.- Any recommendations?=0A=0AThanks very mu ch- --=0A=0A=0AAndy Hawes=0AFatboy Flightworks=0Awww.fatboyflightworks.co - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List ====== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 12, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: soldering steel stud into lead clamp.
Thanks for the reply Roger. I was concerned about a good electrical connection in addition to mechanical strength, that's why I was looking at soldering. I took the leap and soldered the steel threaded rod into the lead clamp. The rod went into a threaded hole that a setscrew was removed from. I cleaned the rod with a wire wheel and then acetone. Applied rosin flux to the threads and screwed it in. Using a propane torch I heated the rod until the solder wicked down into the threads. The clamp configuration provided a compartment under where the rod threaded in, which I filled with solderto increase the contact area between the rod and the clamp. Initial inspection and testing showed a strong bond. This isconsistent with how strongly a few droplets of solder adhered to the rod. A standard multimeter shows no resistance. The the major concern with this process was caused by the plating on the rod. I'm assuming it was either zinc/cad or galvanizing, based on the yellow/white residue from the heating. Heating either of those substances releases toxic fumes and theySHOULD NOT be inhaled. For further info research welding galvanized steel. Aminor concern was possible lead vapor from the heating of the clamp. In summary, it worked exactly the way I wanted. I will be keeping an eye on this and report any noteworthy developments. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 09/10/2013 03:19 AM, rayj wrote: > Greetings, > > I have a lead battery clamp with a threaded hole that I want to put a > stud into. Can I just solder apiece of steel threaded rod into the > lead hole?? > > I'm guessing brass or bronze would be better, but I've got the steel > in stock. > > Any guidance on doing it, if it's acceptable, would be appreciated. > > -- > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN. > > "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, > and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 12, 2013
Subject: Re: Good Multi-Meter recommendation
From: Joe Motis <joemotis(at)gmail.com>
Well after careful consideration, the EICO Model 540 Readi tester Did anyone build thisback in about 1964 I still have mine! Any Fluke you can afford though you will never regret buying a good meter. [image: Inline image 1] On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Ed Gilroy wrote: > The best one I ever bought was a Fluke and I got it used on Craigslist for > $40. > > There are some great used deals out there if you want something more high > end. > > Watch out for Fluke displays on older units, but you can replace them > cheaply from eBay repair kits. > > > On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 11:55 AM, Andy Hawes wrote: > >> >> Thanks Bob -- >> >> On Sep 10, 2013, at 10:42 AM, Robert Borger wrote: >> >> rlborger(at)mac.com> >> > >> > Andy, >> > >> > There are dozens of inexpensive, robust, good multimeters available >> from places like Radio Shack, Harbor Freight, Northern Tool, Lowe's, Home >> Depot, etc. Find one that has the functions you need, feels reasonably >> well built and buy it. >> > >> > Blue skies & tailwinds, >> > Bob Borger >> > Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. >> > Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP >> > 3705 Lynchburg Dr. >> > Corinth, TX 76208-5331 >> > Cel: 817-992-1117 >> > rlborger(at)mac.com >> > >> > On Sep 10, 2013, at 10:15 AM, Andy Hawes wrote: >> > >> andy717(at)comcast.net> >> > >> > Hi folks, >> > >> > Looking for a good multi-meter for my project. Any recommendations? >> > >> > Thanks very much -- >> > >> > >> > Andy Hawes >> > Fatboy Flightworks >> > www.fatboyflightworks.com >> > andy717(at)comcast.net >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> ========== >> -List" target="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> le, List Admin. >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Getting wires into the engine plenum (through the baffles)
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Sep 13, 2013
What's the best way to get the various sensor wires (fuel press, fuel flow, etc.) from the engine to the firewall? Passing them through a small hole with a grommet seems the easiest. But that would require cutting and re-terminating the wire if sheet metal ever has to come off (not that that's a common task). There's a ton of "pass-through" style connectors, but that adds three new contact points in the line. Just wondering what's... typical. -Don Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408553#408553 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 01, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Over Voltage on Start Up
I have 40 hours on my lancair es and have been trying to solve a charging problem since the first startup in july. I have a vertical power electrical system (vp-200), a b&c voltage regulator (lr3c) and an io-550n with a stock 60 amp alternator. Five seconds after engine start vertical power switches power on to the voltage regulator. The alternator comes on and vertical power senses an overvoltage and disconnects the power to the regulator. After resetting the vertical power sometimes two or three times over a 30 second time period the system holds and remains fine for the balance of the flight. I replaced the voltage regulator with an identical replacement with no change. Another clue is that when the system first starts holding in the voltage is on the high side close to 31 volts. There's something fundamentally wrong here. The voltage should NEVER be higher than the regulator's set-point. Readings of 31 volts suggests that the regulator is not getting 'real' bus voltage sample which is critical to proper operation. Attach a (+) lead of a voltmeter to the regulator's bus voltage sense terminal (#3) and the (-) lead to regulator ground terminal (#7). Tell us what you read when the VP screen is reporting 31 volts. It sounds like the regulator 'believes' it's doing a good thing while in fact, the data it's operating on is bogus. How is the regulator grounded? Where does terminal (#3) get it's power? Over time maybe ten minutes it settles down to 28.6 for the remaining flight. I also hear a faint alternator squeal in my headset. I am using two odyssey pc535 12 volt batteries in series and they are at the rear of the plane connected with #2 welding cable This has the 'smell' of a grounding issue where battery recharge currents are polluting the regulator's ground reference causing it to operate at something other than the set-point. Try dismounting the regulator, disconnect existing wire from terminal #7 and run a test wire from #7 to the crankcase. I'm thinking that you may see the ov condition disappear. Can you describe your ground system for us? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 13, 2013
Subject: Bad Crimp?
Bob, Can you tell from the photo if this is this a poor crimp? It was overheating on the back of a strobe switch. I recall Bill Watson had a crimp fail on a strobe switch recently as well. The strobes were occasionally intermittent but the wire near the terminal was always very hot to the touch. The insulation was discolored too. I changed the terminal and the last few inches of wire, and now all is well. Nice and cool. Any comments on the crimp would be much appreciated. Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jeffrey Skiba <jskiba(at)icosa.net>
Subject: Looking for a circuit that when you press a button
powers the device but ....
Date: Sep 13, 2013
Looking for a circuit that when you press a button powers the device but ....if the button is held on it is only powered for a max setting (say 3 seconds) but this same circuit should stop if the button is released before the 3 seconds. Hope that makes sense, I bet it exists already and I just am searching under the wrong name. Thanks in advance for the help Jeff. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 13, 2013
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press a button
powers the device but .... Jeff,=0A=0AI believe you need a better spec.- For example, you say that w hen the button is pressed, the device is powered on.- Then you say if the button is released before the 3 second interval, it should stop powering t he device.- Or at least that's what I think you said.=0A=0AI think you ne ed to divide it into the following functions:=0A=0A* If the button is pr essed for less than N seconds, function 1 happens=0A* If the button is p ressed for more than N seconds, function 2 happens=0A* If the button is held for exactly N seconds, well never mind, there is no such thing unless you have an accuracy spec.- If you do, then function 3 happens.- These three functions need not be mutually exclusive.=0A=0A-=0AWhatever functio nality you want, I believe a microcontroller or CPLD will do the job.- If you describe your functionality more accurately, including output voltage, current, etc., then this group can recommend specific products, including boards.=0A=0A=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Jeffrey Skiba <jskiba(at)icosa.net>=0ATo: "aeroelectric-list(at)matronics. com" =0ASent: Friday, September 13, 2013 7:27 PM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: Looking for a circuit that when you p ress a button powers the device but ....=0A =0A=0A--> AeroElectric-List me ssage posted by: Jeffrey Skiba =0A=0ALooking for a circui t that when you press a button powers the device but ....if the button is h eld on it is only powered for a max setting (say 3 seconds) but this same c ircuit should stop if the button is released before the 3 seconds.=0A=0AHop e that makes sense, I bet it exists already and I just am searching under t =============== ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bad Crimp?
From: "nuckollsr" <bob.nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Date: Sep 13, 2013
I think the evidence is pretty conclusive. ANY terminal that gets hot is victim to heat dissipated in some resistance between wire and terminal or terminal and installation surface . . . or both. Compare the appearance of cross section for the terminal you replaces versus a terminal I sectioned for this article: http://tinyurl.com/kfk6jss The terminal you removed was definitely not INTIMATELY mated with the wire strands. There are voids between strands and a large void in the cavity adjacent to captured strands. In the "golden-crush", wires become indistinguishable from the terminal's wire grip barrel. Was the terminal the right size for the wire? If it was installed with a tool from your shop, an investigation is warranted. You don't want to install a bunch of terminals like that! Bob . . . Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408569#408569 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/photo_135_164.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press a button
powers th
From: "nuckollsr" <bob.nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Date: Sep 13, 2013
Henador's suggestion is doable. There's probably a half dozen approaches to this task. Questions: How much current do you need to switch? Can the switch be in the ground side of the load? Do you mind if a relay is used . . . or is it a design goal to be all solid state? You may be able to do this for a few$ of discrete components . . . Bob . . . Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408570#408570 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Why does a master switch turn off devices?
From: Dan Charrois <dan(at)syz.com>
Date: Sep 14, 2013
I've never quite understood something about aircraft electrical systems and I'm hoping someone here can enlighten me. I've always flown under the impression that a primary purpose of the master switch is to effectively connect/disconnect power from the electrical bus, which in turns provides for the flight instruments and other electrical devices in the cockpit. However, my question is that since the alternator is typically connected on the bus side of the master contactor (not the battery side), why doesn't the alternator continue to provide electrical power to the bus while the engine is running when the master is off? Or does it? I have to admit to not ever having tried to switch off the master in flight, but I've been under the impression that doing so should turn off the electrical equipment - it's after all, a recommendation to turn off the master in a forced approach. >From the electrical diagrams I've seen, it would seem as though that switching off the master while the engine is running should do nothing other than disconnect the battery from the bus, which would not prevent the alternator from continuing to power electrical devices, but instead merely remove the battery's ability to absorb transients, etc. Wouldn't the alternator continue to supply its own field current once it is already running, so long as the alternator switch remains on? I think I'm missing something pretty basic here. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Dan -- Syzygy Research & Technology Box 83, Legal, AB T0G 1L0 Canada Phone: 780-961-2213 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 2013
From: Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press a button
powers the device but .... So once it is latched on how do you turn it off? A 3 second press is a long time, assuming the usual operation is to turn it on an leave it on might be best to turn things around. If device is off: - Short press (say < 1 second); device turns on. - Long press (> 1 second); device turns on for 3 seconds, or duration of press if longer, and then turns off. If device is on: - Short press (perhaps any press); device turns off Thinking about this some more, it would be easier if the 3 second requirement is removed, so requirements become: Button is pressed: device turns on; Button is released: device turns off; Ignore button release if within 1 second after button press. This does mean that button has to be pressed for > 1 sec to turn off, but that prevents inadvertent knocks turning it off. Hope this helps, Peter On 14/09/2013 01:45, Henador Titzoff wrote: > Jeff, > > I believe you need a better spec. For example, you say that when the > button is pressed, the device is powered on. Then you say if the > button is released before the 3 second interval, it should stop > powering the device. Or at least that's what I think you said. > > I think you need to divide it into the following functions: > > * If the button is pressed for less than N seconds, function 1 happens > * If the button is pressed for more than N seconds, function 2 happens > * If the button is held for exactly N seconds, well never mind, > there is no such thing unless you have an accuracy spec. If you > do, then function 3 happens. These three functions need not be > mutually exclusive. > > > Whatever functionality you want, I believe a microcontroller or CPLD > will do the job. If you describe your functionality more accurately, > including output voltage, current, etc., then this group can recommend > specific products, including boards. > > Henador Titzoff > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Jeffrey Skiba > *To:* "aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com" > *Sent:* Friday, September 13, 2013 7:27 PM > *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Looking for a circuit that when you > press a button powers the device but .... > > > > > Looking for a circuit that when you press a button powers the device > but ....if the button is held on it is only powered for a max setting > (say 3 seconds) but this same circuit should stop if the button is > released before the 3 seconds. > > Hope that makes sense, I bet it exists already and I just am searching > under the wrong name. > > Thanks in advance for the help > > Je= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Lista > href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.mat > &nbs//www.matronics.com/contribution" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.co================= > > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 2013
From: Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Subject: Re: Why does a master switch turn off devices?
I don't think you are missing anything, you've described what happens! The alternator should continue to power the bus if the master is switched off (or fails) - its not recommended for the reason you identified. If the alternator fed into the battery, and not the bus, failure of the master contactor would be a single point failure that would take down the whole system. That could be catastrophic in IMC with electric gyros. Switching the master off before an emergency landing is possibly a through toward minimizing fire risk? Peter On 14/09/2013 08:17, Dan Charrois wrote: > > I've never quite understood something about aircraft electrical systems and I'm hoping someone here can enlighten me. > > I've always flown under the impression that a primary purpose of the master switch is to effectively connect/disconnect power from the electrical bus, which in turns provides for the flight instruments and other electrical devices in the cockpit. However, my question is that since the alternator is typically connected on the bus side of the master contactor (not the battery side), why doesn't the alternator continue to provide electrical power to the bus while the engine is running when the master is off? Or does it? I have to admit to not ever having tried to switch off the master in flight, but I've been under the impression that doing so should turn off the electrical equipment - it's after all, a recommendation to turn off the master in a forced approach. > > >From the electrical diagrams I've seen, it would seem as though that switching off the master while the engine is running should do nothing other than disconnect the battery from the bus, which would not prevent the alternator from continuing to power electrical devices, but instead merely remove the battery's ability to absorb transients, etc. Wouldn't the alternator continue to supply its own field current once it is already running, so long as the alternator switch remains on? > > I think I'm missing something pretty basic here. Any help would be greatly appreciated! > > Dan > -- > Syzygy Research & Technology > Box 83, Legal, AB T0G 1L0 Canada > Phone: 780-961-2213 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Alternator Whine in Radio Transmit
From: "Ron Lendon" <ron.lendon(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 14, 2013
Thanks Bob, This is the part of the instructions from the Sigtronics Installation instructions I missed. 2. Connect all intercom mic jack grounds to a single aircraft chassis ground point - Intercom Central ground Point A - as shown in Figure 4. (Use the black washers supplied to insulate the intercom mic jacks from aircraft chassis ground). Note this intercom central grounding point is used to eliminate any unwanted electrical noises, such as alternator whine or strobe noise, from being induced into the intercom system through the grounds. All intercom mic jack barrels must be insulated from ground where they are mounted and connected back to Intercom Central Ground Point A on their own individual ground wire. Similarly, both intercom ground wires (J1 pin 4) and the push-to-transmit switch grounds must also be connected back to Intercom Central Ground Point A . It is not necessary, however, to connect the headphone jack barrels to Intercom Central Ground Point A . They can either be grounded where they are mounted or some place nearby. I have the airplane opened up and will remedy this oversight promptly. -------- Ron Lendon WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing CH 601 XLB N601LT - Flying http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Corvair Engine Prints: https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408578#408578 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 2013
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press a button
powers the device but .... To answer your question (instead of trying to change your requirements) :-), A 555 timer integrated circuit would do what you want, with added components to handle whatever current you need to drive your device. The (momentary contact) switch, when pressed, would supply power to the timer *and* the trigger signal. The timer would be configured to stay on for the specified time. It would drive the high-current driver device (transistor or relay). If you hold the button, the timer runs & then shuts off. If you press the button for less than the preset interval, power is removed from the timer which removes activation from the transistor/relay. https://www.google.com/search?q=555+timer+circuits&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS553US553&oq=555+timer&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j5j0l2.7716j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 Look for 'monostable mode': http://www.555-timer-circuits.com/operating-modes.html You'd need the switch to both supply power to the timer, and take the signal input 'low' (to ground). This could be done with a 2 pole switch, or with some type of signal inverter (transistor, inverter IC, even another relay). Remember, the key is to have the switch actually supply power to the 555, so that releasing the switch removes power from the 555 & therefore, the output signal to the power device. This is just the quickest/dirtiest method that comes to mind. 2nd option: use a 2 pole momentary switch, with one pole supplying the trigger and the other in series with the output of the 555. This is probably a more stable way of doing it, but would mean that the circuit would be powered up all the time instead of only when needed. If you poke around the search link long enough, you'll probably find a complete circuit already designed that does exactly what you want. Charlie On 9/14/2013 2:37 AM, Peter Pengilly wrote: > So once it is latched on how do you turn it off? > > A 3 second press is a long time, assuming the usual operation is to > turn it on an leave it on might be best to turn things around. > > If device is off: > - Short press (say < 1 second); device turns on. > - Long press (> 1 second); device turns on for 3 seconds, or duration > of press if longer, and then turns off. > > If device is on: > - Short press (perhaps any press); device turns off > > Thinking about this some more, it would be easier if the 3 second > requirement is removed, so requirements become: > Button is pressed: device turns on; > Button is released: device turns off; > Ignore button release if within 1 second after button press. > > This does mean that button has to be pressed for > 1 sec to turn off, > but that prevents inadvertent knocks turning it off. > > Hope this helps, > Peter > > On 14/09/2013 01:45, Henador Titzoff wrote: >> Jeff, >> >> I believe you need a better spec. For example, you say that when the >> button is pressed, the device is powered on. Then you say if the >> button is released before the 3 second interval, it should stop >> powering the device. Or at least that's what I think you said. >> >> I think you need to divide it into the following functions: >> >> * If the button is pressed for less than N seconds, function 1 happens >> * If the button is pressed for more than N seconds, function 2 happens >> * If the button is held for exactly N seconds, well never mind, >> there is no such thing unless you have an accuracy spec. If you >> do, then function 3 happens. These three functions need not be >> mutually exclusive. >> >> >> Whatever functionality you want, I believe a microcontroller or CPLD >> will do the job. If you describe your functionality more accurately, >> including output voltage, current, etc., then this group can >> recommend specific products, including boards. >> >> Henador Titzoff >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* Jeffrey Skiba >> *To:* "aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com" >> >> *Sent:* Friday, September 13, 2013 7:27 PM >> *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Looking for a circuit that when you >> press a button powers the device but .... >> >> > >> >> Looking for a circuit that when you press a button powers the device >> but ....if the button is held on it is only powered for a max setting >> (say 3 seconds) but this same circuit should stop if the button is >> released before the 3 seconds. >> >> Hope that makes sense, I bet it exists already and I just am >> searching under the wrong name. >> >> Thanks in advance for the help >> >> Je= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Lista >> href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.mat >> &nbs//www.matronics.com/contribution" >> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.co================= >> >> >> >> >> >> * >> >> >> * > > * > > > * ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press a button
powers th
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Sep 14, 2013
> Looking for a circuit that when you press a button powers the device but ....if the button is held on it is only powered for a max setting (say 3 seconds) but this same circuit should stop if the button is released before the 3 seconds. > Jeff. The circuit you want is a momentary push button with a resettable fuse. Preferably solid state. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408582#408582 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 14, 2013
Subject: Re: Bad Crimp?
Yep, I have a few tools to take a look at. Hopefully it's a case of using the wrong crimper slot. It's a 20AWG in a red PIDG terminal. FWIW, the wire felt very slightly loose in the connector, but it didn't pull out. Just kind of worked back and forth. Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 6:58 PM, nuckollsr wrote: > bob.nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> > > I think the evidence is pretty conclusive. ANY terminal that gets hot is > victim to heat dissipated in some resistance between wire and terminal or > terminal and installation surface . . . or both. > > Compare the appearance of cross section for the terminal you replaces > versus a terminal I sectioned for this article: > > http://tinyurl.com/kfk6jss > > The terminal you removed was definitely not INTIMATELY mated with the wire > strands. There are voids between strands and a large void in the cavity > adjacent to captured strands. In the "golden-crush", wires become > indistinguishable from the terminal's wire grip barrel. > > Was the terminal the right size for the wire? If it was installed with a > tool from your shop, an investigation is warranted. You don't want to > install a bunch of terminals like that! > > Bob . . . > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408569#408569 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/photo_135_164.jpg > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 2013
From: Ed <decaclops(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Why does a master switch turn off devices?
The Cessna style split master switch also turns off the field which kills the alternator. Bob's Z figures often do this with a DPST switch. Ed Holyoke On 9/14/2013 12:17 AM, Dan Charrois wrote: > > I've never quite understood something about aircraft electrical systems and I'm hoping someone here can enlighten me. > > I've always flown under the impression that a primary purpose of the master switch is to effectively connect/disconnect power from the electrical bus, which in turns provides for the flight instruments and other electrical devices in the cockpit. However, my question is that since the alternator is typically connected on the bus side of the master contactor (not the battery side), why doesn't the alternator continue to provide electrical power to the bus while the engine is running when the master is off? Or does it? I have to admit to not ever having tried to switch off the master in flight, but I've been under the impression that doing so should turn off the electrical equipment - it's after all, a recommendation to turn off the master in a forced approach. > >>From the electrical diagrams I've seen, it would seem as though that switching off the master while the engine is running should do nothing other than disconnect the battery from the bus, which would not prevent the alternator from continuing to power electrical devices, but instead merely remove the battery's ability to absorb transients, etc. Wouldn't the alternator continue to supply its own field current once it is already running, so long as the alternator switch remains on? > > I think I'm missing something pretty basic here. Any help would be greatly appreciated! > > Dan > -- > Syzygy Research & Technology > Box 83, Legal, AB T0G 1L0 Canada > Phone: 780-961-2213 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jeffrey Skiba <jskiba(at)icosa.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press
a button powers th
Date: Sep 14, 2013
Sorry for the bad specs, let me try again Functions: Press a momentary switch device turns on release same switch device turns off (even if shorter than the below set time) Press same switch and hold for more than x time say 2 or 3 seconds (would like that to be adjustable if Possible) the device will only be on for the max set time even if button still held, to get device on again you would have to release button and press again. Do not care if solid state or relay, would probably prefer solid state, ultimately looking for simple and CHEAP to build or buy. This needs to run off 12-14 volts Hope that clears things up ? Jeff. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 9:10 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press a button powers th --> > Looking for a circuit that when you press a button powers the device but ....if the button is held on it is only powered for a max setting (say 3 seconds) but this same circuit should stop if the button is released before the 3 seconds. > Jeff. The circuit you want is a momentary push button with a resettable fuse. Preferably solid state. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408582#408582 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press
a button powers th
From: Daniel Hooper <enginerdy(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 14, 2013
..a circuit that will only be on for 3 seconds maximum, even if you're still holding down the button. If you let go early, it turns off early. Do I have that right? What is the load you're driving? How much current? Daniel On Sep 14, 2013, at 2:30 PM, Jeffrey Skiba wrote: > > Sorry for the bad specs, let me try again > > Functions: > Press a momentary switch device turns on release same switch device turns off (even if shorter than the below set time) > Press same switch and hold for more than x time say 2 or 3 seconds (would like that to be adjustable if Possible) the device will only be on for the max set time even if button still held, to get device on again you would have to release button and press again. > Do not care if solid state or relay, would probably prefer solid state, ultimately looking for simple and CHEAP to build or buy. > This needs to run off 12-14 volts > > Hope that clears things up ? > > Jeff. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 9:10 AM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press a button powers th > > --> > > >> Looking for a circuit that when you press a button powers the device but ....if the button is held on it is only powered for a max setting (say 3 seconds) but this same circuit should stop if the button is released before the 3 seconds. >> Jeff. > > > The circuit you want is a momentary push button with a resettable fuse. Preferably solid state. > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408582#408582 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jeffrey Skiba <jskiba(at)icosa.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press
a button powers th
Date: Sep 14, 2013
Driving a servo max current would be 900 milliamps. .a circuit that will only be on for 3 seconds maximum, even if you're still holding down the button. If you let go early, it turns off early. Do I have that right? You GOT it -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Hooper Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 2:49 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press a button powers th --> ..a circuit that will only be on for 3 seconds maximum, even if you're still holding down the button. If you let go early, it turns off early. Do I have that right? What is the load you're driving? How much current? Daniel On Sep 14, 2013, at 2:30 PM, Jeffrey Skiba wrote: > --> > > Sorry for the bad specs, let me try again > > Functions: > Press a momentary switch device turns on release same switch device > turns off (even if shorter than the below set time) Press same switch and hold for more than x time say 2 or 3 seconds (would like that to be adjustable if Possible) the device will only be on for the max set time even if button still held, to get device on again you would have to release button and press again. > Do not care if solid state or relay, would probably prefer solid state, ultimately looking for simple and CHEAP to build or buy. > This needs to run off 12-14 volts > > Hope that clears things up ? > > Jeff. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Eric M. Jones > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 9:10 AM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you > press a button powers th > > --> > > >> Looking for a circuit that when you press a button powers the device but ....if the button is held on it is only powered for a max setting (say 3 seconds) but this same circuit should stop if the button is released before the 3 seconds. >> Jeff. > > > The circuit you want is a momentary push button with a resettable fuse. Preferably solid state. > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408582#408582 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press
a button powers th
Date: Sep 14, 2013
Jeff; Momentary normally open pushbutton in series with a timer which opens the load after the preset delay time. Because button is momentary and in series with the load and the timer, it must be held to power the load for any period of time. Any time it is released the load loses power. The timer opens the load after the preset delay even if the button is still maintained. Releasing the button resets the timer whether or not it has timed out. Provides exactly the functionality you describe. One example of such a timer is Omron H3RN-1 which is available in 12 VDC (also 24 VAC and 24 VDC) and in 2 timing ranges from .1 sec to 10 min OR .1 min to 10 HR. This particular timer will switch a resistive load of 3 amps up to 250 Volts. Spec sheet found here; http://tinyurl.com/mruy73u This is a plug in solid state timer with a relay output (SPDT) Bob McC > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Skiba > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 3:31 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press a button > powers th > > > Sorry for the bad specs, let me try again > > Functions: > Press a momentary switch device turns on release same switch device turns off (even > if shorter than the below set time) > Press same switch and hold for more than x time say 2 or 3 seconds (would like that > to be adjustable if Possible) the device will only be on for the max set time even if > button still held, to get device on again you would have to release button and press > again. > Do not care if solid state or relay, would probably prefer solid state, ultimately looking > for simple and CHEAP to build or buy. > This needs to run off 12-14 volts > > Hope that clears things up ? > > Jeff. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 9:10 AM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press a button > powers th > > --> > > > > Looking for a circuit that when you press a button powers the device but ....if the > button is held on it is only powered for a max setting (say 3 seconds) but this same > circuit should stop if the button is released before the 3 seconds. > > Jeff. > > > The circuit you want is a momentary push button with a resettable fuse. Preferably > solid state. > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408582#408582 > > > > > > > > > > > > > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > _- > ==================================================== > ====== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 2013
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Subject: testing; no reply needed
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press
a button powers th
Date: Sep 14, 2013
I know this this probably doesn't exactly fit your "cheap" requirement, but I'm guessing it's pretty close to what you're trying to do here. By the time you round up all the components and put some of your own time into it, I'd bet you'd be close to this anyway (as far as time/money goes): http://tcwtech.com/safety_trim.html#features Cheers, Stein -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Skiba Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 2:31 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press a button powers th --> Sorry for the bad specs, let me try again Functions: Press a momentary switch device turns on release same switch device turns off (even if shorter than the below set time) Press same switch and hold for more than x time say 2 or 3 seconds (would like that to be adjustable if Possible) the device will only be on for the max set time even if button still held, to get device on again you would have to release button and press again. Do not care if solid state or relay, would probably prefer solid state, ultimately looking for simple and CHEAP to build or buy. This needs to run off 12-14 volts Hope that clears things up ? Jeff. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 9:10 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press a button powers th --> > Looking for a circuit that when you press a button powers the device but ....if the button is held on it is only powered for a max setting (say 3 seconds) but this same circuit should stop if the button is released before the 3 seconds. > Jeff. The circuit you want is a momentary push button with a resettable fuse. Preferably solid state. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408582#408582 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jeffrey Skiba <jskiba(at)icosa.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press
a button powers th
Date: Sep 14, 2013
Thanks for the tip, I guess I am not following the layout of the circuit with this device, I see in the data sheet [cid:image001.png(at)01CEB173.A979CBD0] But not exactly seeing how the push button is in series with the load. Aka if button released then load is turned off before max time on ?? Am I looking at the wrong function for this pre made device? From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr ic-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob McCallum Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 3:19 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you pre ss a button powers th Jeff; Momentary normally open pushbutton in series with a timer which opens the l oad after the preset delay time. Because button is momentary and in series with the load and the timer, it must be held to power the load for any peri od of time. Any time it is released the load loses power. The timer opens t he load after the preset delay even if the button is still maintained. Rele asing the button resets the timer whether or not it has timed out. Provides exactly the functionality you describe. One example of such a time r is Omron H3RN-1 which is available in 12 VDC (also 24 VAC and 24 VDC) and in 2 timing ranges from .1 sec to 10 min OR .1 min to 10 HR. This particul ar timer will switch a resistive load of 3 amps up to 250 Volts. Spec sheet found here; http://tinyurl.com/mruy73u This is a plug in solid state timer with a relay output (SPDT) Bob McC > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com<mailto:owner-aeroelect ric-list-server(at)matronics.com> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey S kiba > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 3:31 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you p ress a button > powers th > mailto:jskiba(at)icosa.net>> > > Sorry for the bad specs, let me try again > > Functions: > Press a momentary switch device turns on release same switch device turns off (even > if shorter than the below set time) > Press same switch and hold for more than x time say 2 or 3 seconds (would like that > to be adjustable if Possible) the device will only be on for the max set time even if > button still held, to get device on again you would have to release butto n and press > again. > Do not care if solid state or relay, would probably prefer solid state, u ltimately looking > for simple and CHEAP to build or buy. > This needs to run off 12-14 volts > > Hope that clears things up ? > > Jeff. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com<mailto:owner-aeroelect ric-list-server(at)matronics.com> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. J ones > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 9:10 AM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press a button > powers th > > --> > > > > > Looking for a circuit that when you press a button powers the device bu t ....if the > button is held on it is only powered for a max setting (say 3 seconds) bu t this same > circuit should stop if the button is released before the 3 seconds. > > Jeff. > > > The circuit you want is a momentary push button with a resettable fuse. P referably > solid state. > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com<http://www.PerihelionDesign.com> > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408582#408582 > > > > > > > > > > > > > _- > == > ====== > - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum - > _- > == > ====== > bsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > _- > == > ====== > bsp; - List Contribution Web Site - > bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > _- > == > ====== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press
a button powers th
Date: Sep 14, 2013
Jeff; You configure the timer for "delay ON" and wire according to the following. Current flows direct to your device through the NC relay contact but is sourced from the button. Opening the button therefore cuts power. If you continuously hold the button, when the timer times out the relay contacts switch, (opening the NC contact) cutting power to the load. Releasing the button resets the timer, ready for next time. (or cancelling the time if it hasn't timed out yet.) Bob McC _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Skiba Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 7:11 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press a button powers th Thanks for the tip, I guess I am not following the layout of the circuit with this device, I see in the data sheet But not exactly seeing how the push button is in series with the load. Aka if button released then load is turned off before max time on ?? Am I looking at the wrong function for this pre made device? From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob McCallum Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 3:19 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press a button powers th Jeff; Momentary normally open pushbutton in series with a timer which opens the load after the preset delay time. Because button is momentary and in series with the load and the timer, it must be held to power the load for any period of time. Any time it is released the load loses power. The timer opens the load after the preset delay even if the button is still maintained. Releasing the button resets the timer whether or not it has timed out. Provides exactly the functionality you describe. One example of such a timer is Omron H3RN-1 which is available in 12 VDC (also 24 VAC and 24 VDC) and in 2 timing ranges from .1 sec to 10 min OR .1 min to 10 HR. This particular timer will switch a resistive load of 3 amps up to 250 Volts. Spec sheet found here; http://tinyurl.com/mruy73u This is a plug in solid state timer with a relay output (SPDT) Bob McC > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Skiba > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 3:31 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press a button > powers th > > > Sorry for the bad specs, let me try again > > Functions: > Press a momentary switch device turns on release same switch device turns off (even > if shorter than the below set time) > Press same switch and hold for more than x time say 2 or 3 seconds (would like that > to be adjustable if Possible) the device will only be on for the max set time even if > button still held, to get device on again you would have to release button and press > again. > Do not care if solid state or relay, would probably prefer solid state, ultimately looking > for simple and CHEAP to build or buy. > This needs to run off 12-14 volts > > Hope that clears things up ? > > Jeff. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list- > server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 9:10 AM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press a button > powers th > > --> > > > > Looking for a circuit that when you press a button powers the device but ....if the > button is held on it is only powered for a max setting (say 3 seconds) but this same > circuit should stop if the button is released before the 3 seconds. > > Jeff. > > > The circuit you want is a momentary push button with a resettable fuse. Preferably > solid state. > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408582#408582 > > > > > > > > > > > > > _- > == > ====== > - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum - > _- > == > ====== > bsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > _- > == > ====== > bsp; - List Contribution Web Site - > bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > _- > == > ====== > > ====================== ; - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum - vigator to browse st Un/Subscription, ay Browse, Chat, FAQ, p> ://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/N avigator?AeroElectric-List ====================== ; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! ://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ====================== ; - List Contribution Web Site - support! ; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ====================== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press
a button powers th At 03:01 PM 9/14/2013, you wrote: > >Driving a servo max current would be 900 milliamps. > > >.a circuit that will only be on for 3 seconds maximum, even if >you're still holding down the button. If you let go early, it turns >off early. Do I have that right? You GOT it Okay, this conversation is an excellent example of the $time$ that can be expended when the participants in a discussion all have different mental images of what's being asked . . . If I understand your design goals correctly you're wanting a trim motor run time limiter that will trip for any motor command exceeding 3 seconds . . . but resets as soon as power is removed. Hence, a series of trim commands of 3 seconds or less will be conducted to the motor without modification. A stick trim switch would, therefore be limited in how far the airplane could be driven out of trim by the fault. Do I presume correctly from the current draw value that we're talking about a Ray-Allen actuator? If so, then the motor to be controlled is a permanent magnet device wherein direction is determined by the polarity of applied voltage. This fact does not preclude putting the run-limit circuitry in the ground side of the supply power. This narration also suggests that the timing function need not be terribly accurate. A specification of 3.0 +/- 0.5 seconds would probably suffice . . . timer accuracy requirements drive selection of components. Is the narrative above accurate? The creative designers need to know before serious sifting of the ingredients suited to a recipe for success. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jeffrey Skiba <jskiba(at)icosa.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press
a button powers th
Date: Sep 15, 2013
As usual Bob you are correct on all statements :-) The one other item I would like to add is to also include a two speed function. A slower rate of movement for the servo at a higher airspeed controlled by manual switch or airspeed switch, vs the full rate of the servo at slow airspeeds (pattern) again that portion could be store bought (ray allen speed control one example but those are $45 each so building one at the same time as the original requested circuit, I would think would be lots cheaper and I would learn something about it in the process) *Note I just found your drawing for two speed trim system but cannot find the Component "AEC9013-110-1 Speed Control" on your site any longer. Ref: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Trim/Two_Speed_Trim_2.pdf Does this drawing show everything to build the speed controller ? Sorry for wasting $time$ that can be expended when the participants in a discussion all have different mental images of what's being asked . . . Thanks in advance for everyone's time Jeff. --> At 03:01 PM 9/14/2013, you wrote: >--> > >Driving a servo max current would be 900 milliamps. > > >.a circuit that will only be on for 3 seconds maximum, even if you're >still holding down the button. If you let go early, it turns off early. >Do I have that right? You GOT it Okay, this conversation is an excellent example of the $time$ that can be expended when the participants in a discussion all have different mental images of what's being asked . . . If I understand your design goals correctly you're wanting a trim motor run time limiter that will trip for any motor command exceeding 3 seconds . . . but resets as soon as power is removed. Hence, a series of trim commands of 3 seconds or less will be conducted to the motor without modification. A stick trim switch would, therefore be limited in how far the airplane could be driven out of trim by the fault. Do I presume correctly from the current draw value that we're talking about a Ray-Allen actuator? If so, then the motor to be controlled is a permanent magnet device wherein direction is determined by the polarity of applied voltage. This fact does not preclude putting the run-limit circuitry in the ground side of the supply power. This narration also suggests that the timing function need not be terribly accurate. A specification of 3.0 +/- 0.5 seconds would probably suffice . . . timer accuracy requirements drive selection of components. Is the narrative above accurate? The creative designers need to know before serious sifting of the ingredients suited to a recipe for success. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press
a button powers th
From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Sep 15, 2013
Bob N, Didn't you already do this circuit for me two years ago, for that IvoProp electric Prop controller? Mike Welch ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press
a button powers th
Date: Sep 15, 2013
Jeff, Exactly the circuit you describe for two axis trim and two pilot control was published by me in the June 2013 Kitplanes magazine. If you leave out the fancy external (safety feature) controls and the variable speed capability the parts cost (including 8 amp relays) is less than $15. This compares well with the commercial unit Stein mentioned. If you don't have access to the Kitplanes Magazine E-Library I can email you pdf files of the schematic and the perfboard layout as well as the Bill of Materials. Tom ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press
a button powers th
Date: Sep 15, 2013
Jeff, << The one other item I would like to add is to also include a two speed function. >> The circuit I published (June 2013 Kitplanes magazine) does that also. All out full featured parts cost is $30 about 1/10th the TCW unit.. Tom Kuffel ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for a circuit that when you press
a button powers th At 09:56 AM 9/15/2013, you wrote: > >Bob N, > > Didn't you already do this circuit for me two years ago, for that > IvoProp electric Prop controller? > >Mike Welch > > No, that was an electronic circuit breaker designed to be more accurate (and adjustable). That's on my list of things to become a product. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Why does a master switch turn off devices?
At 02:17 AM 9/14/2013, you wrote: I've never quite understood something about aircraft electrical systems and I'm hoping someone here can enlighten me. I've always flown under the impression that a primary purpose of the master switch is to effectively connect/disconnect power from the electrical bus, which in turns provides for the flight instruments and other electrical devices in the cockpit. However, my question is that since the alternator is typically connected on the bus side of the master contactor (not the battery side), why doesn't the alternator continue to provide electrical power to the bus while the engine is running when the master is off? Or does it? I have to admit to not ever having tried to switch off the master in flight, but I've been under the impression that doing so should turn off the electrical equipment - it's after all, a recommendation to turn off the master in a forced approach. To achieve a solid understanding of how and why various are placed on the ship's control panel, it's useful if not a mitigation of risk, to understand what the controls do and why they're included. The legacy short answer to your question comes out of FAR23 as follows: Sec. 23.1361 Master switch arrangement. (a) There must be a master switch arrangement to allow ready disconnection of each electric power source from power distribution systems, except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section. The point of disconnection must be adjacent to the sources controlled by the switch arrangement. If separate switches are incorporated into the master switch arrangement, a means must be provided for the switch arrangement to be operated by one hand with a single movement. Okay. In times gone by, separate switches for battery(ies) and generator(s) were located right next to each other such that a downward stroke of two fingers or a 'crash bar' makes the electrical system go to max-dark. The infamous 'split-rocker' switch was birthed during the transition from generators to alternators on the single engine aircraft in the 1960s time-frame. It was discovered that alternators often would not come on line without having a battery on also to excite the field. It was also common wisdom that unlike generators (that self-excited and happily ran sans battery), it was good practice to make sure that a battery was ON any time an alternator was ON. Hence the infamous 'split rocker' switch seemed like a good idea . . . it could be fitted with mechanical interlocking of the two rockers such that you can operate battery only but any attempt to turn the alternator ON would add the battery also . . . further, any attempt to take the battery OFF would also shut down the alternator. This bit of mechanical slight-of-hand is easily accomplished with a progressive-transfer, ON-ON-ON toggle switch wired as shown http://tinyurl.com/kdqwahq and in many of the wiring diagrams in Appendix Z of the 'Connection. Do you have a copy of the book? (b) Load circuits may be connected so that they remain energized when the master switch is open, if the circuits are isolated, or physically shielded, to prevent their igniting flammable fluids or vapors that might be liberated by the leakage or rupture of any flammable fluid system; and (1) The circuits are required for continued operation of the engine; or (2) The circuits are protected by circuit protective devices with a rating of five amperes or less adjacent to the electric power source. (3) In addition, two or more circuits installed in accordance with the requirements of paragraph (b)(2) of this section must not be used to supply a load of more than five amperes. (c) The master switch or its controls must be so installed that the switch is easily discernible and accessible to a crewmember. From the electrical diagrams I've seen, it would seem as though that switching off the master while the engine is running should do nothing other than disconnect the battery from the bus, which would not prevent the alternator from continuing to power electrical devices . . . It depends on who's diagrams you've seen and what the designer calls a "master switch". Bottom line is that for every significant power source there should be a pilot controlled switch properly labeled as to which source is being controlled. . . . but instead merely remove the battery's ability to absorb transients, etc. Batteries are poor mitigators of bus noises and are effective only in mitigation of LARGE transients like energizing a hydraulic pump motor . . . Wouldn't the alternator continue to supply its own field current once it is already running, so long as the alternator switch remains on? Yes, unless your MASTER is wired like many a single engine airplane and the alternator is forced off with the battery. The modern Bonanzas have separate battery and alternator switches. It seems that the Bonanza alternators WILL self excite so ganging the alternator and battery switches together is not necessary. I think I'm missing something pretty basic here. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Do you have a copy of the AeroElectric Connection? Electrical system architecture and design goals are discussed at length. Also, check out hte articles on http://aeroelectric.com for further enlightenment. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Vern Little" <sprocket@vx-aviation.com>
Subject: Re: Bad Crimp?
Date: Sep 13, 2013
A few years ago, I had a strobe switch failure, and the terminals charred. The root cause is thermal runaway: A strobe power supply is a constant-power device. This means that if there is resistance in the switch circuit, it will draw more current to make up the different. This increased current makes the switch get hotter, increasing resistance, and so on. Eventually everything gets toasty and fails. The root cause of this was found (and reviewed by Bob) to be loose rivets on the Carling switches used in this application. After I switched to Honeywell switches (and changed the charred fast-ons), I=99ve had no problems. This loose rivet failure also occurred in my landing light circuit and master switch. Vern From: Dave Saylor Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 2:36 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bad Crimp? Bob, Can you tell from the photo if this is this a poor crimp? It was overheating on the back of a strobe switch. I recall Bill Watson had a crimp fail on a strobe switch recently as well. The strobes were occasionally intermittent but the wire near the terminal was always very hot to the touch. The insulation was discolored too. I changed the terminal and the last few inches of wire, and now all is well. Nice and cool. Any comments on the crimp would be much appreciated. Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 09/13/13 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Why does a master switch turn off devices?
At 02:17 AM 9/14/2013, you wrote: I've never quite understood something about aircraft electrical systems and I'm hoping someone here can enlighten me. I've always flown under the impression that a primary purpose of the master switch is to effectively connect/disconnect power from the electrical bus, which in turns provides for the flight instruments and other electrical devices in the cockpit. However, my question is that since the alternator is typically connected on the bus side of the master contactor (not the battery side), why doesn't the alternator continue to provide electrical power to the bus while the engine is running when the master is off? Or does it? I have to admit to not ever having tried to switch off the master in flight, but I've been under the impression that doing so should turn off the electrical equipment - it's after all, a recommendation to turn off the master in a forced approach. To achieve a solid understanding of how and why various are placed on the ship's control panel, it's useful if not a mitigation of risk, to understand what the controls do and why they're included. The legacy short answer to your question comes out of FAR23 as follows: Sec. 23.1361 Master switch arrangement. (a) There must be a master switch arrangement to allow ready disconnection of each electric power source from power distribution systems, except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section. The point of disconnection must be adjacent to the sources controlled by the switch arrangement. If separate switches are incorporated into the master switch arrangement, a means must be provided for the switch arrangement to be operated by one hand with a single movement. Okay. In times gone by, separate switches for battery(ies) and generator(s) were located right next to each other such that a downward stroke of two fingers or a 'crash bar' makes the electrical system go to max-dark. The infamous 'split-rocker' switch was birthed during the transition from generators to alternators on the single engine aircraft in the 1960s time-frame. It was discovered that alternators often would not come on line without having a battery on also to excite the field. It was also common wisdom that unlike generators (that self-excited and happily ran sans battery), it was good practice to make sure that a battery was ON any time an alternator was ON. Hence the infamous 'split rocker' switch seemed like a good idea . . . it could be fitted with mechanical interlocking of the two rockers such that you can operate battery only but any attempt to turn the alternator ON would add the battery also . . . further, any attempt to take the battery OFF would also shut down the alternator. This bit of mechanical slight-of-hand is easily accomplished with a progressive-transfer, ON-ON-ON toggle switch wired as shown http://tinyurl.com/kdqwahq and in many of the wiring diagrams in Appendix Z of the 'Connection. Do you have a copy of the book? (b) Load circuits may be connected so that they remain energized when the master switch is open, if the circuits are isolated, or physically shielded, to prevent their igniting flammable fluids or vapors that might be liberated by the leakage or rupture of any flammable fluid system; and (1) The circuits are required for continued operation of the engine; or (2) The circuits are protected by circuit protective devices with a rating of five amperes or less adjacent to the electric power source. (3) In addition, two or more circuits installed in accordance with the requirements of paragraph (b)(2) of this section must not be used to supply a load of more than five amperes. (c) The master switch or its controls must be so installed that the switch is easily discernible and accessible to a crewmember. From the electrical diagrams I've seen, it would seem as though that switching off the master while the engine is running should do nothing other than disconnect the battery from the bus, which would not prevent the alternator from continuing to power electrical devices . . . It depends on who's diagrams you've seen and what the designer calls a "master switch". Bottom line is that for every significant power source there should be a pilot controlled switch properly labeled as to which source is being controlled. . . . but instead merely remove the battery's ability to absorb transients, etc. Batteries are poor mitigators of bus noises and are effective only in mitigation of LARGE transients like energizing a hydraulic pump motor . . . Wouldn't the alternator continue to supply its own field current once it is already running, so long as the alternator switch remains on? Yes, unless your MASTER is wired like many a single engine airplane and the alternator is forced off with the battery. The modern Bonanzas have separate battery and alternator switches. It seems that the Bonanza alternators WILL self excite so ganging the alternator and battery switches together is not necessary. I think I'm missing something pretty basic here. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Do you have a copy of the AeroElectric Connection? Electrical system architecture and design goals are discussed at length. Also, check out hte articles on http://aeroelectric.com for further enlightenment. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Why does a master switch turn off devices?
Oops, sorry for the double posting of Part I. Here's the rest of the story about energy management switches in an airplane whether or not they are called "master switches". Consider this part of FAR23.1361 (b) Load circuits may be connected so that they remain energized when the master switch is open, if the circuits are isolated, or physically shielded, to prevent their igniting flammable fluids or vapors that might be liberated by the leakage or rupture of any flammable fluid system; and (1) The circuits are required for continued operation of the engine; or (2) The circuits are protected by circuit protective devices with a rating of five amperes or less adjacent to the electric power source. (3) In addition, two or more circuits installed in accordance with the requirements of paragraph (b)(2) of this section must not be used to supply a load of more than five amperes. This section goes to issues that took root in OBAM aviation, the electrically dependent engine. Some years back we began to consider and expanded role for the BATTERY BUS in powering electronic ignition systems and/or fuel pumps necessary for engine operation. The combination of switches one might call 'masters' is set apart from engine critical circuits. For crash safety, the FAA has embraced a "5A max" always hot feeders for a variety of tasks not the least of which was engine support. Paragraph (b)(3) seems to suggest that the sum total of power feeders taken directly from the battery bus should not exceed 5A . . . not sure of how this might be interpreted by the regulatory guru's I've known. Since FAR23 does not apply to our endeavors (at least not today) then the significance of (b)(3) is moot. Nevertheless, battery bus feeders greater than 5A might best be fitted with a disconnect relay at the bus . . . not unlike Figure Z-32 http://tinyurl.com/756ydec where it is shown as an auxiliary feed path to the e-bus. That same relay might power a fuel injection pump and be fused at much greater than 5A. The point of this semantic hat dance is to illustrate the wide range of power control switches that might find their way onto the panel of an airplane and to emphasize the fact that they might be called something other than a 'master switch'. Irrespective of what the switch is called, legacy design goals for making the electrical system go max-dark with a minimum of effort/confusion at the pilot's discretion is worthy of the builder's consideration Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Electrical System Review
From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net>
Date: Sep 16, 2013
The thread about "Why does a master switch..." prompted me to take a look at my own electrical system. I haven't been to the hangar to look at how my system is actually wired, but in review of my schematic, (particularly, everything left of the Main Bus)there were some glaring deficiencies re-wiring of OVM's , and the Ground Power circuit, and perhaps the Battery Bus, given the total load and the need for a switch/relay. And I was surprised to see that, with engine running, the Main bus is always hot. I would appreciate any comments to make this better. Thanks, John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408673#408673 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/z8_20td_final_187.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 16, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Circuit Diagram Z-19
At 01:34 PM 9/16/2013, you wrote: >Bob... > >With a MPEFIed RAM Subaru EA 81 in a Europa XS, I'm using your Z-19 >circuit as a general guide...a pal who is a marine electronics >engineer/contractor had questions: > >1. Why is there a starter contactor in series w/ the starter >solenoid? Could we not run from the starter 7 amp fuse to the >push to start button direct to the sole coil? Maybe not. What kind of pinion engagement system is employed? A TWO stage, direct engagement or perhaps an inertia-driven, Bendix style? If the former, suggest you retain the exteral starter contactor. See: http://tinyurl.com/op5cs2g >2. For weight & balance issues, my batteries will be aft in the >tail cone; regarding location of main battery and engine battery >contactors, if they were mounted on the firewall, could we not get >by with only 3 AWG4 wires running back to the batteries by using a >single wire as a common ground? By legacy convention, battery contactors are mounted as close as practical to their respective batteries. >My apologies for the personal email rather than a post on >AeroElectric list-serve...for reasons unknown, I'm unable to post >and have yet to sort out the problem...I am able to read the daily >AeroElectric list-serve digest. I see that you're currently subscribed to both the digest and real-time dumps from the AeroElectric-List. You can post a new message by sending to: AeroElectric-List(at)matronics.com Or simply reply to a message that was posted to the list . . . even if you change the subject to start a new thread. Are you able to post to the other Matronics lists to which you subscribe? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 16, 2013
From: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net>
Subject: Location of Batteries and Master Relays
Bob,=0A-=0AI am planning on using the Z14 wiring for the FADEC electronic ignition.- I am going to use two Odyssey PC680 batteries to be located u nder the pilot/co-pilot seats.- There is plenty of room for upright insta llation with ample room to also install the master relays, crossover relay, and starter contactor and voltage regulators-as well.- I will also hav e the wing leveler autopilot servo in the same area.- This is essentially dead space that is not usable for storage.=0A-=0AThe question is do you see any issues with having all the relays, contactors, and voltage regulato rs located under the seats in the same area?- Past experience with batter ies have proven keeping them inside greatly extends their life but not sure if there are other issues I am not considering.- There is plenty of room , lots more than behind the firewall and more accessible too.-=0A-=0A -=0AThanks,=0A-=0ABob Reed ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ron Burnett <ronburnett(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Location of Batteries and Master Relays
Date: Sep 16, 2013
What type of aircraft? Sent from my iPad May you have the blessings of the Lord today. On Sep 16, 2013, at 6:04 PM, Robert Reed wrote: > Bob, > > I am planning on using the Z14 wiring for the FADEC electronic ignition. I am going to use two Odyssey PC680 batteries to be located under the pilot/c o-pilot seats. There is plenty of room for upright installation with ample r oom to also install the master relays, crossover relay, and starter contacto r and voltage regulators as well. I will also have the wing leveler autopil ot servo in the same area. This is essentially dead space that is not usabl e for storage. > > The question is do you see any issues with having all the relays, contacto rs, and voltage regulators located under the seats in the same area? Past e xperience with batteries have proven keeping them inside greatly extends the ir life but not sure if there are other issues I am not considering. There i s plenty of room, lots more than behind the firewall and more accessible too . > > > Thanks, > > Bob Reed > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 16, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Electrical System Review
The thread about "Why does a master switch..." prompted me to take a look at my own electrical system. I haven't been to the hangar to look at how my system is actually wired, but in review of my schematic, (particularly, everything left of the Main Bus)there were some glaring deficiencies re-wiring of OVM's , and the Ground Power circuit, and perhaps the Battery Bus, given the total load and the need for a switch/relay. And I was surprised to see that, with engine running, the Main bus is always hot. I would appreciate any comments to make this better. Thanks, John I don't see any big gottchas except for current limiter in hte starter/alternator feed line. We don't normally put circuit protection there. The FARS don't require it and no certified single engine airplane would have it. Further, starter current through this device would blow it. Does anyone else see a problem with John's proposed installation? Oh, yeah . . . I presume that you included a contactor in the aux alternator b-lead to make this feed line max-dark when the switch is off . . . this suggests that tne contactor be mounted adjacent to the battery contactor. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 16, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Electrical System Review
Oops . . . didn't finish the job. The ANL60 needs to move as shown in attached. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electrical System Review
From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net>
Date: Sep 16, 2013
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > The thread about "Why does a master switch..." prompted me to take a > look at my own electrical system. > ...snip > Thanks, > John > > > > > I don't see any big gottchas except for current limiter in hte > starter/alternator feed line. > ... snip > > Oh, yeah . . . I presume that you included a contactor in the > aux alternator b-lead to make this feed line max-dark when > the switch is off . . . this suggests that tne contactor > be mounted adjacent to the battery contactor. > > > Bob . . . The current limiter is inaccurately drawn. It's actually in the B lead from the main alternator just upstream from where the B lead connects to the Starter Contactor. And there is a contactor for the Aux Alternator B lead just left of the Aux Alt in the schematic. In reality, the contactor is about 4" from the Batt Cont. Of concern is that I don't see any reverse polarity protection from the Ground Power Jack. How would I achieve it with what I've got? Also, from your quote Bob, "battery bus feeders greater than 5A might best be fitted with a disconnect relay at the bus . . . not unlike Figure Z-32". Is this just for shutting down in the event of a forced landing? I wired the batt bus direct because I didn't want the always-on relay point of failure for my #2 fuel pump and aux EFI power. The # 8 wire is about 7.5". Per the LSE manual, both ignition leads sit on the Batt + terminal. Thanks, John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408707#408707 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Location of Batteries and Master Relays
From: Robert Reed <RobertR237(at)att.net>
Date: Sep 16, 2013
KIS Super Cruiser low wing fiberglass four place. Bob Reed Sent from my iPhone On Sep 16, 2013, at 6:48 PM, Ron Burnett wrote: > What type of aircraft? > > > Sent from my iPad > May you have the blessings of the Lord today. > > On Sep 16, 2013, at 6:04 PM, Robert Reed wrote: > >> Bob, >> >> I am planning on using the Z14 wiring for the FADEC electronic ignition. I am going to use two Odyssey PC680 batteries to be located under the pilot /co-pilot seats. There is plenty of room for upright installation with ampl e room to also install the master relays, crossover relay, and starter conta ctor and voltage regulators as well. I will also have the wing leveler auto pilot servo in the same area. This is essentially dead space that is not us able for storage. >> >> The question is do you see any issues with having all the relays, contact ors, and voltage regulators located under the seats in the same area? Past e xperience with batteries have proven keeping them inside greatly extends the ir life but not sure if there are other issues I am not considering. There is plenty of room, lots more than behind the firewall and more accessible t oo. >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bob Reed >> >> >> ========================= ========= >> st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ========================= ========= >> cs.com >> ========================= ========= >> matronics.com/contribution >> ========================= ========= >> > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electrical System Review
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 17, 2013
> Of concern is that I don't see any reverse polarity protection from the Ground Power Jack. How would I achieve it with what I've got? The diode located under the GND PWR switch provides reverse polarity protection, as long as the polarity is not reversed after pulling in the Ground PWR contactor. Someone could trip over the jumper cables and pull them off the GND PWR Battery. Then they could put them back on backwards. But that is a remote possibility. If that is a crowbar-type over-voltage module, it is not wired correctly. Its upper wire needs to be removed from the GND PWR Plug and connected to the wire that goes between the diode and 2 amp circuit breaker. Then connect a 4 AWG cable between the GND PWR Plug and the Ground PWR contactor. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408726#408726 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Inline connections needed? (with little space)
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Sep 17, 2013
I find myself stuck (again) and cant' decide on how to proceed. :( I'm working on wiring an overhead switch panel with about 10 switches. The space is rather tight. Because of that, I had to use some switches with really small bodies to fit in the area behind the panel. The only connection types are solder lugs. So now I've got to decide on how to wire them. I could solder the wires to the switches and run the wires directly to the mags, starter, master, etc. Or I could put in male/female faston connectors or knife connectors. I feel like hard wiring a switch directly to the controlled device is a bad idea since trying to solder a new switch in that position doesn't look like any fun. But what's the likelyhood of a switch failure? If it's not likely, then maybe it's not a bad idea. One of my thoughts during this build has been ease of service. But there's a point of diminishing returns that has to be considered. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408732#408732 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Inline connections needed? (with little space)
Date: Sep 17, 2013
One thought=3B Is the panel removable?? Or can it be made removable?? Solder all the switc h wires to the switches and bring them to a single DB series connector (15 ? 25? pin) and in the event of future switch replacement=2C pop out the pa nel=2C unplug it =2C make the replacements/repairs on the bench and re-inst all the panel. Bob McC > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Inline connections needed? (with little space ) > From: don@velocity-xl.com > Date: Tue=2C 17 Sep 2013 07:15:52 -0700 > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > om> > > I find myself stuck (again) and cant' decide on how to proceed. :( > > I'm working on wiring an overhead switch panel with about 10 switches. Th e space is rather tight. Because of that=2C I had to use some switches with really small bodies to fit in the area behind the panel. The only connecti on types are solder lugs. > > So now I've got to decide on how to wire them. I could solder the wires t o the switches and run the wires directly to the mags=2C starter=2C master =2C etc. > > Or I could put in male/female faston connectors or knife connectors. > > I feel like hard wiring a switch directly to the controlled device is a b ad idea since trying to solder a new switch in that position doesn't look l ike any fun. > > But what's the likelyhood of a switch failure? If it's not likely=2C then maybe it's not a bad idea. One of my thoughts during this build has been e ase of service. But there's a point of diminishing returns that has to be c onsidered. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408732#408732 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dennis A Glaeser <dennis.glaeser(at)gm.com>
Subject: Re: Electrical System Review
Date: Sep 17, 2013
Am I looking at it wrong, or is the battery symbol backwards in that diagra m? It looks like the + side is connected to the ground bus ... Dennis Glaeser Nothing in this message is intended to constitute an electronic signature u nless a specific statement to the contrary is included in this message. Confidentiality Note: This message is intended only for the person or entit y to which it is addressed. It may contain confidential and/or privileged m aterial. Any review, transmission, dissemination or other use, or taking of any action in reliance upon this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you received this message in error, please contact the sender and delete it from your co mputer. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Inline connections needed? (with little space)
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Sep 17, 2013
Excellent idea! It is removable. http://www.velocity-xl.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/2013-09-02-IMG_20130902_153556_104a.jpg But I would need a DB-25 and I'm not certain that will fit. I will check that out. Thanks! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408747#408747 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Inline connections needed? (with little space)
Date: Sep 17, 2013
Don't forget Bob's idea for making DB series connectors smaller if space is that much of an issue. This idea applies to the 25 pin as well as the 9. T here is also the high density series which puts more pins in a smaller body size. http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/macservo/macservo.html Bob McC > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Inline connections needed? (with little s pace) > From: don@velocity-xl.com > Date: Tue=2C 17 Sep 2013 09:15:58 -0700 > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > om> > > Excellent idea! > > It is removable. > > http://www.velocity-xl.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/2013-09-02-IMG _20130902_153556_104a.jpg > > But I would need a DB-25 and I'm not certain that will fit. I will check that out. > > Thanks! > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408747#408747 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R. curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Inline connections needed? (with little space)
Date: Sep 17, 2013
> But I would need a DB-25 and I'm not certain that will fit. I will check > that out. There is always the option of wiring direct initially, and then if you have a failure later on you can cut and splice. Roger -- Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 17, 2013
From: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net>
Subject: Re: Inline connections needed? (with little space)
DB connectors aren't really intended for significant voltage. How high are the voltage peaks on Mag P-leads? Might be a concern for small switches as well or is it not an issue? Ken On 17/09/2013 1:10 PM, Bob McCallum wrote: > *Don't forget Bob's idea for making DB series connectors smaller if > space is that much of an issue. This idea applies to the 25 pin as well > as the 9. There is also the high density series which puts more pins in > a smaller body size. > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/macservo/macservo.html > > Bob McC > * > > > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Inline connections needed? (with > little space) > > From: don@velocity-xl.com > > Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 09:15:58 -0700 > > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > > > <don@velocity-xl.com> > > > > Excellent idea! > > > > It is removable. > > > > > http://www.velocity-xl.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/2013-09-02-IMG_20130902_153556_104a.jpg > > > > But I would need a DB-25 and I'm not certain that will fit. I will > check that out. > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408747#408747 > > > > > > > > > &g========================> > > > > > > * > > > * > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Inline connections needed? (with little space)
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Sep 17, 2013
klehman(at)albedo.net wrote: > DB connectors aren't really intended for significant voltage. How high > are the voltage peaks on Mag P-leads? Might be a concern for small > switches as well or is it not an issue? > Ken Good question. I'll have to look and see what current/voltage spec for the mags are. Note 3 in the wiring diagram appendix says to use 20 or 22AWG wiring for the mags. I'm inferring that to mean relatively low current. But I'll verify that nonetheless. Thanks, Don Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408768#408768 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 17, 2013
Subject: Re: Inline connections needed? (with little space)
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Or you could use the machined pins for the DB 25 and mate them directly with some shrink tubing over them and go without using the body of the connector. Rick Girard On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Bob McCallum < robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> wrote: > *Don't forget Bob's idea for making DB series connectors smaller if space > is that much of an issue. This idea applies to the 25 pin as well as the 9. > There is also the high density series which puts more pins in a smaller > body size. > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/macservo/macservo.html > > Bob McC > * > > > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Inline connections needed? (with little > space) > > From: don@velocity-xl.com > > Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2013 09:15:58 -0700 > > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > > > > don@velocity-xl.com> > > > > Excellent idea! > > > > It is removable. > > > > > http://www.velocity-xl.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/2013-09-02-IMG_20130902_153556_104a.jpg > > > > But I would need a DB-25 and I'm not certain that will fit. I will check > that out. > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408747#408747 > > > > > > > > > &g========================**> > > > > > > * > > * > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Inline connections needed? (with little space)
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Sep 17, 2013
rickofudall wrote: > Or you could use the machined pins for the DB 25 and mate them directly with some shrink tubing over them and go without using the body of the connector. > > Rick Girard > I have room for a DB-25 behind the switches. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408771#408771 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 17, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Location of Batteries and Master Relays
At 06:04 PM 9/16/2013, you wrote: >Bob, > >I am planning on using the Z14 wiring for the FADEC electronic >ignition. I am going to use two Odyssey PC680 batteries to be >located under the pilot/co-pilot seats. There is plenty of room for >upright installation with ample room to also install the master >relays, crossover relay, and starter contactor and voltage >regulators as well. I will also have the wing leveler autopilot >servo in the same area. This is essentially dead space that is not >usable for storage. Suggest the cross tie contactor be on the fire wall. "All roads used to lead to Rome", all systems lead to the cross-feed contactor . . . good place to tie alternator and bus feeders. > >The question is do you see any issues with having all the relays, >contactors, and voltage regulators located under the seats in the >same area? Past experience with batteries have proven keeping them >inside greatly extends their life but not sure if there are other >issues I am not considering. There is plenty of room, lots more >than behind the firewall and more accessible too. Under the seats is fine as far as I can see . . . others may have some caveats to offer. If the batteries are there, then the battery busses could be there too since you are obviously planning for handy access. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 18, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Inline connections needed? (with little space)
At 06:21 PM 9/17/2013, you wrote: > > >rickofudall wrote: > > Or you could use the machined pins for the DB 25 and mate them > directly with some shrink tubing over them and go without using the > body of the connector. > > > > Rick Girard > > > > >I have room for a DB-25 behind the switches. > What is controlled by these switches? Are the 'mags' legacy magnetos or p-mags? What is the largest anticipated current to be controlled by any one switch? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 09/17/13
From: Dennis Johnson <pinetownd(at)volcano.net>
Date: Sep 18, 2013
Weather is perfect. See you soon. Dennis Sent from my iPad On Sep 17, 2013, at 11:59 PM, AeroElectric-List Digest Server wrote: > * > > ================================================= > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================= > > Today's complete AeroElectric-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the AeroElectric-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 13-09-17&Archive=AeroElectric > > Text Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 13-09-17&Archive=AeroElectric > > > =============================================== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > =============================================== > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > AeroElectric-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Tue 09/17/13: 12 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 06:22 AM - Re: Electrical System Review (user9253) > 2. 07:16 AM - Inline connections needed? (with little space) (donjohnston) > 3. 07:42 AM - Re: Inline connections needed? (with little space) (Bob McCallum) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electrical System Review
From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net>
Date: Sep 18, 2013
Thank you Joe. The OVM wiring makes perfect sense now in the schematic. I'm pretty sure that's the way I wired it, but it's on my list of the next hangar visit. I kind of get the reverse polarity protection, but I'd really appreciate a brief description of what happens should the GPJ get a reverse polarity input. Dennis, thanks for calling the battery symbol into question. It had never occurred to me that there was a convention re which plate size was negative and which was positive. Googling images for "12v battery symbol", it turns out that the small plate is negative and the large one positive, so my symbol on the schematic is correct with the small plate connected to the ground bus. But I didn't know that. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408788#408788 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Electrical System Review
Date: Sep 18, 2013
The battery symbol thing actually carries over into the physical manufactur e of the battery. The larger post on a conventional automotive battery is p ositive the smaller post negative just like the schematic symbol. Think of negative as less (smaller) positive as more. (larger) Bob McC > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Electrical System Review > From: jonlaury(at)impulse.net > Date: Wed=2C 18 Sep 2013 09:43:56 -0700 > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > > > > Thank you Joe. > The OVM wiring makes perfect sense now in the schematic. I'm pretty sure that's the way I wired it=2C but it's on my list of the next hangar visit. > I kind of get the reverse polarity protection=2C but I'd really appreciat e a brief description of what happens should the GPJ get a reverse polarity input. > > Dennis=2C thanks for calling the battery symbol into question. It had nev er occurred to me that there was a convention re which plate size was negat ive and which was positive. > Googling images for "12v battery symbol"=2C it turns out that the small plate is negative and the large one positive=2C so my symbol on the schemat ic is correct with the small plate connected to the ground bus. But I didn' t know that. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408788#408788 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electrical System Review
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 18, 2013
> I kind of get the reverse polarity protection, but I'd really appreciate a brief description of what happens should the GPJ get a reverse polarity input. If the ground power polarity is wrong, the lamp will not illuminate nor will the ground power contactor coil be energized because the diode blocks current in the reverse direction. If the ground power polarity is correct when plugged in, current flows through the lamp and the diode and 2 amp circuit breaker to ground and the lamp illuminates. Then if the switch is closed, the contactor coil is energized by current flowing from the ground power plug to the contactor, through the coil, and switch, and diode, and 2 amp circuit breaker to ground. Now that the contactor coil is energized, it will hold and stay energized even if the ground power is unplugged. Current flows from the aircraft battery (unless it is completely dead) through the already closed ground power contactor contacts, through the coil and switch and diode and 2 amp circuit breaker to ground. The ground power switch should be shut off whenever the ground power is disconnected. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408797#408797 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 18, 2013
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: KX-125 to Garmin SL-30 Upgrade Mounting
Dear Listers, I've currently got a King KX125 nav/com in the RV-6. I was thinking of upgrading to a Garmin SL-30. But, as luck would have it, the vertical heights are different. The Garmin is about 2/3's the height of the KX-125. Does anyone know of a sweet installation kit that I could use to mount the SL-30 in the same hole that the KX-125 is currently in? Something that would look like it was suppose to be that way and not a klugy deal? Thanks! Matt - Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen" http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap... RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer" http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log Status: 180+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full Flyer Mode Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream! Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at the Livermore Airport. Includes both Tower and Ground transmissions. Archives too! For entertainment purposes only. http://klvk.matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 18, 2013
From: Bill Putney <billp(at)wwpc.com>
Subject: Re: KX-125 to Garmin SL-30 Upgrade Mounting
Matt, What's above and below the current KX-125? If it's blank plates, you can take up some of the space with rubber U grommets. You can find various styles at ACS. If it's other radios, I've used black rubber tubing. Squeeze it in after the SL30 is mounted. Of course... If you've got very much upgrading or rearranging going on, having a whole new panel made is the clean solution. Having one professionally made, powder coated and silk screened is under $1K. Not too much compared to all the other stuff you put in the panel and it makes the airplane look more finished than patched. Bill On 9/18/13 2:18 PM, Matt Dralle wrote: > > > Dear Listers, > > I've currently got a King KX125 nav/com in the RV-6. I was thinking of upgrading to a Garmin SL-30. But, as luck would have it, the vertical heights are different. The Garmin is about 2/3's the height of the KX-125. Does anyone know of a sweet installation kit that I could use to mount the SL-30 in the same hole that the KX-125 is currently in? Something that would look like it was suppose to be that way and not a klugy deal? > > Thanks! > > Matt > > - > Matt Dralle > > RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen" > http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log > http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel > Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap... > > RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer" > http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log > Status: 180+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full Flyer Mode > > Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream! > Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at the Livermore > Airport. Includes both Tower and Ground transmissions. Archives too! > For entertainment purposes only. http://klvk.matronics.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Earl Juno <earl_schroeder(at)juno.com>
Subject: Re: KX-125 to Garmin SL-30 Upgrade Mounting
Date: Sep 18, 2013
Do not have info on a kit but might be interested in the KX 125? earl On Sep 18, 2013, at 4:18 PM, Matt Dralle wrote: > > > Dear Listers, > > I've currently got a King KX125 nav/com in the RV-6. I was thinking of upgrading to a Garmin SL-30. But, as luck would have it, the vertical heights are different. The Garmin is about 2/3's the height of the KX-125. Does anyone know of a sweet installation kit that I could use to mount the SL-30 in the same hole that the KX-125 is currently in? Something that would look like it was suppose to be that way and not a klugy deal? > > Thanks! > > Matt > > - > Matt Dralle > > RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen" > http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log > http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel > Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap... > > RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer" > http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log > Status: 180+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full Flyer Mode > > Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream! > Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at the Livermore > Airport. Includes both Tower and Ground transmissions. Archives too! > For entertainment purposes only. http://klvk.matronics.com > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 18, 2013
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Subject: Re: KX-125 to Garmin SL-30 Upgrade Mounting
Depending on what is desired, or if the SL30 is already procured, the new Garmin replacement for the SL30 is a little taller and has a few more features/integration with their brand GPS units. On 9/18/2013 3:38 PM, Bill Putney wrote: > > Matt, > > What's above and below the current KX-125? If it's blank plates, you > can take up some of the space with rubber U grommets. You can find > various styles at ACS. If it's other radios, I've used black rubber > tubing. Squeeze it in after the SL30 is mounted. > > Of course... If you've got very much upgrading or rearranging going > on, having a whole new panel made is the clean solution. Having one > professionally made, powder coated and silk screened is under $1K. Not > too much compared to all the other stuff you put in the panel and it > makes the airplane look more finished than patched. > > Bill > > On 9/18/13 2:18 PM, Matt Dralle wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear Listers, >> >> I've currently got a King KX125 nav/com in the RV-6. I was thinking >> of upgrading to a Garmin SL-30. But, as luck would have it, the >> vertical heights are different. The Garmin is about 2/3's the height >> of the KX-125. Does anyone know of a sweet installation kit that I >> could use to mount the SL-30 in the same hole that the KX-125 is >> currently in? Something that would look like it was suppose to be >> that way and not a klugy deal? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Matt >> >> - >> Matt Dralle >> >> RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen" >> http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log >> http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log >> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel >> Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap... >> >> RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer" >> http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log >> Status: 180+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full >> Flyer Mode >> >> Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream! >> Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at the Livermore >> Airport. Includes both Tower and Ground transmissions. Archives too! >> For entertainment purposes only. http://klvk.matronics.com >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 18, 2013
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Bad Crimp?
Good memory there Dave. I did replace the crimp and all seemed well with the original installation. However, during my problem determination and fell back on the good 'ol swap the box solution. That is, I bought a new strobe unit to replace the "Avi-Pak" unit from CreativAir. I picked up the "XPAK604X" unit from Nova Electronics. It is a non-aviation unit but it mounts in the same mount and looks like it is from the same manufacturer. However, this unit keeps the switch out of the main power circuit. That is, the XPAK604X has a power circuit that in the '10 can be run directly from the rear mounted battery to the strobe power unit - a run of less than 2 feet. Then the panel switch is wired on a separate control circuit. Notably, the panel switch no longer is warm to the touch. I've been running this for about a year and all is good. Can't do it now but I can supply more information if needed. Bill On 9/13/2013 5:36 PM, Dave Saylor wrote: > Bob, > > Can you tell from the photo if this is this a poor crimp? It was > overheating on the back of a strobe switch. I recall Bill Watson had > a crimp fail on a strobe switch recently as well. The strobes were > occasionally intermittent but the wire near the terminal was always > very hot to the touch. The insulation was discolored too. > > I changed the terminal and the last few inches of wire, and now all is > well. Nice and cool. > > Any comments on the crimp would be much appreciated. > > Dave Saylor > 831-750-0284 CL > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Inline connections needed? (with little space)
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Sep 18, 2013
[/quote] What is controlled by these switches? Are the 'mags' legacy magnetos or p-mags? What is the largest anticipated current to be controlled by any one switch? Bob . . .[/quote] Master switch, mags, starter contactor, boost pump, alternator... Stock magnetos on a Continental IO-550. Highest current device is the boost pump drawing 4a @ 28v. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408822#408822 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 18, 2013
Subject: Re: Bad Crimp?
I did some tests with our crimper. As long as it's used correctly, it still makes good crimps. Whew! I made some poor crimps on purpose, and they looked like the the one that failed. But I really had to abuse it. Musta had a bad day. Bill, I like the idea of having the switch as a control. The strobe pack powered by the failed crimp is the certified Whelen version with regular strobes and LED nav lights. Personally, I have an automotive Whelen version in my plane. I haven't looked at it lately but I recall it has a blade fuse in the case, as you mentioned only a few inches from the master relay, and it switches to ground. But I don't think the switch is a control as you described since it's the only ground in the system. Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL On Wed, Sep 18, 2013 at 5:41 PM, Bill Watson wrote: > Good memory there Dave. I did replace the crimp and all seemed well > with the original installation. > > However, during my problem determination and fell back on the good 'ol > swap the box solution. That is, I bought a new strobe unit to replace the > "Avi-Pak" unit from CreativAir. I picked up the "XPAK604X" unit from Nova > Electronics. It is a non-aviation unit but it mounts in the same mount and > looks like it is from the same manufacturer. > > However, this unit keeps the switch out of the main power circuit. That > is, the XPAK604X has a power circuit that in the '10 can be run directly > from the rear mounted battery to the strobe power unit - a run of less than > 2 feet. Then the panel switch is wired on a separate control circuit. > Notably, the panel switch no longer is warm to the touch. > > I've been running this for about a year and all is good. > > Can't do it now but I can supply more information if needed. > > Bill > > On 9/13/2013 5:36 PM, Dave Saylor wrote: > > Bob, > > Can you tell from the photo if this is this a poor crimp? It was > overheating on the back of a strobe switch. I recall Bill Watson had a > crimp fail on a strobe switch recently as well. The strobes were > occasionally intermittent but the wire near the terminal was always very > hot to the touch. The insulation was discolored too. > > I changed the terminal and the last few inches of wire, and now all is > well. Nice and cool. > > Any comments on the crimp would be much appreciated. > > Dave Saylor > 831-750-0284 CL > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > 09/18/13 > > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 2013
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Bad Crimp?
In case there are some out there considering strobe power supplies for their RV10, here are some diagrams that may be of interest. Here is (hopefully) a link to a page of the instructions for the old CreativAir Avi-pak strobe power supply. I don't think these are sold any longer but I'm sure a number of older RV10s have them. https://www.dropbox.com/s/2mz34v7tidnmbah/AVI-PAK%20from%20CreativAir.jpg Here is a link to a page from the non-aviation supply from Nova Electronics where the switch is in some kind of control circuit. https://www.dropbox.com/s/vfsm8htq7e82upx/XPAK604X%20scan.jpg Given the typical locations in the RV10, Wiring the main power line to a power bus location that is local to the battery seems preferable to running the same power line up to the panel and back. Bill On 9/18/2013 11:48 PM, Dave Saylor wrote: > I did some tests with our crimper. As long as it's used correctly, it > still makes good crimps. Whew! > > I made some poor crimps on purpose, and they looked like the the one > that failed. But I really had to abuse it. Musta had a bad day. > > Bill, I like the idea of having the switch as a control. The strobe > pack powered by the failed crimp is the certified Whelen version with > regular strobes and LED nav lights. Personally, I have an automotive > Whelen version in my plane. I haven't looked at it lately but I > recall it has a blade fuse in the case, as you mentioned only a few > inches from the master relay, and it switches to ground. But I don't > think the switch is a control as you described since it's the only > ground in the system. > > Dave Saylor > 831-750-0284 CL > > > On Wed, Sep 18, 2013 at 5:41 PM, Bill Watson > wrote: > > Good memory there Dave. I did replace the crimp and all seemed > well with the original installation. > > However, during my problem determination and fell back on the good > 'ol swap the box solution. That is, I bought a new strobe unit to > replace the "Avi-Pak" unit from CreativAir. I picked up the > "XPAK604X" unit from Nova Electronics. It is a non-aviation unit > but it mounts in the same mount and looks like it is from the same > manufacturer. > > However, this unit keeps the switch out of the main power > circuit. That is, the XPAK604X has a power circuit that in the > '10 can be run directly from the rear mounted battery to the > strobe power unit - a run of less than 2 feet. Then the panel > switch is wired on a separate control circuit. Notably, the panel > switch no longer is warm to the touch. > > I've been running this for about a year and all is good. > > Can't do it now but I can supply more information if needed. > > Bill > > On 9/13/2013 5:36 PM, Dave Saylor wrote: >> Bob, >> >> Can you tell from the photo if this is this a poor crimp? It was >> overheating on the back of a strobe switch. I recall Bill Watson >> had a crimp fail on a strobe switch recently as well. The >> strobes were occasionally intermittent but the wire near the >> terminal was always very hot to the touch. The insulation was >> discolored too. >> >> I changed the terminal and the last few inches of wire, and now >> all is well. Nice and cool. >> >> Any comments on the crimp would be much appreciated. >> >> Dave Saylor >> 831-750-0284 CL >> >> >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> >> 09/18/13 >> > > * > > ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > * > > > * > > > * > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electrical System Review
From: Dennis & Anne Glaeser <glaesers(at)wideopenwest.com>
Date: Sep 19, 2013
My 'old-timers disease' must be kicking in. When I looked at your diagram, for some reason that symbol seemed backwards. But I looked at my own diagrams and they are the same as yours! iDennis ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: data dump for Stratomaster Maxi Single E1
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 21, 2013
There is a computer program called Teraterm that will capture a serial stream. The 11Mb teraterm479.exe file can be downloaded here? http://logmett.com/downloadfile.php?pvid=36 I am not familiar with the Stratomaster Maxi Single E1 and do not know how to connect to it. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408927#408927 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: data dump for Stratomaster Maxi Single E1
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Sep 21, 2013
A device like one of these might do the trick. I'm sure there are others li ke it; try searching for "serial data logger." This is just one vendor that I knew had some loggers available. I presume you're dealing with a serial d ata stream... https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9228 https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10216 https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9530 Eric On Sep 20, 2013, at 9:45 PM, "henry.voris" wrote: > I am interested in collecting the data from my Stratomaster Maxi Single E1 . Is there a way to capture the data stream for post-flight analysis? > > Thanks in advance. > > Aloha, > > Henry > > -------- > Henry > Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 23, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: King KX145 pin out, pin 10
>> >>Got a KX145 reception problem in a homebuilt. (Nav not wired for use.) >>Transmits beautifully, but only receives up to 1/2 mile. >>Bench checked by a shop as AOK. >> >>What is pin 10 on the P401 ? (The antenna is currently connected to >>ANT only.) >>Feels like an antenna problem. Wondering about the unused pin 10... Emacs! >It appears that the KX145 is among the first generation >of Nav/Com transceivers wehrein the there is only one >receiver . . . you can either listen to a comm channel >or use it to navigate . . . but not both at the same time. > >Later radios were 1-1/2 Nav/Comm indicating that there >is a full-up transmitter-receiver pair PLUS a separate >nav receiver. > >The early nav/comms had two antennas too. The first >was the vertical 'whisker' for transmit only; the >second was the horizontal-V for receive only of >either comm or nav. > >This explains the pin 10 connection which is the >center conductor of your receive coax. If you're >not connected to that pin, then receive performance >would be VERY poor. > >If you don't plan to use the vor feature, then >you can install an antenna relay . . . > > >Emacs! > > . . . that is wired into your microphone >push to talk switch to let you receive on >the comm-whisker and transfer it to the >trasmitter during talk-time. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 23, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: How to Correctly Implement Pitot Heat Current Sensor
>> >>I have the components to put together the Pitot Heat current sensor >>but I am not completely sure I have interpreted the diagram >>correctly. The biggest issue is the two extra pins on the Reed >>Switch that are shown to have a resistor between then in the >>schematic supplied with the part. As best as I can tell those two >>pins are not used so I should be able to clip them off and forget >>them. My best guess of the detailed schematic for the sensor is >>shown in the graphic below. If I have it right then fine, I can go >>ahead and fabricate the part. If not then please enlighten me so I >>do not end up with a sensor that does not work. >> >> >>Emacs! > > >The Radio Shack 275-232 is a 12 volt, .5A reed RELAY. >Emacs! > > >The two EXTRA pins are for the 12 volt coil wrapped around the >reed switch capsule. The project you're crafting converts the >relay from a VOLTAGE operated device to a CURRENT operated >device by ADDING a second coil of a few turns that are hooked >in series with the load to be monitored. > >There are a number of load sensing relays used on type >certificated ships. They start with a rudimentary reed >switch capsule and add the current coil around it. > >Emacs! > > >These capsules are quite fragile and not easy to work >with. So using a pre-packaged capsule in an assembly >offers some reduction in risks for damage. > >The short answer to your question is, ignore the >two pins that are attached to the voltage coil. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 23, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: King KX145 pin out, pin 10
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 23, 2013
Subject: Isolated shield on a bulkhead BNC connector?
We had a nav reception problem in a customer's plane that turned out to be a strange bulkhead connector. It looks like a standard connector but during the troubleshooting process it was found to isolate each side of the shield from each other and from the threaded barrel. We assumed it was bad but upon closer inspection it seems to be intentionally built that way. A standard bulkhead connector fixed the problem. What would be the correct application for this isolated connector? Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 23, 2013
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: King KX145 pin out, pin 10
I have a KX145 manual. It there's any info I can look up to help with this issue, drop me a note. Bob, I'm still in the process of scanning it so you can add it to your collection. Just hasn't made it to the top of the priority list. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. "And you know that I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine On 09/23/2013 08:12 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>> >>> Got a KX145 reception problem in a homebuilt. (Nav not wired for use.) >>> Transmits beautifully, but only receives up to 1/2 mile. >>> Bench checked by a shop as AOK. >>> >>> What is pin 10 on the P401 ? (The antenna is currently connected to >>> ANT only.) >>> Feels like an antenna problem. Wondering about the unused pin 10... > > >> *It appears that the KX145 is among the first generation >> of Nav/Com transceivers wehrein the there is only one >> receiver . . . you can either listen to a comm channel >> or use it to navigate . . . but not both at the same time. >> >> Later radios were 1-1/2 Nav/Comm indicating that there >> is a full-up transmitter-receiver pair PLUS a separate >> nav receiver. >> >> The early nav/comms had two antennas too. The first >> was the vertical 'whisker' for transmit only; the >> second was the horizontal-V for receive only of >> either comm or nav. >> >> This explains the pin 10 connection which is the >> center conductor of your receive coax. If you're >> not connected to that pin, then receive performance >> would be VERY poor. >> >> If you don't plan to use the vor feature, then >> you can install an antenna relay . . . >> >> >> >> . . . that is wired into your microphone >> push to talk switch to let you receive on >> the comm-whisker and transfer it to the >> trasmitter during talk-time.* > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 23, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: King KX145 pin out, pin 10 (OOPS! IMAGE CORRECTION)
>> >>Got a KX145 reception problem in a homebuilt. (Nav not wired for use.) >>Transmits beautifully, but only receives up to 1/2 mile. >>Bench checked by a shop as AOK. >> >>What is pin 10 on the P401 ? (The antenna is currently connected to >>ANT only.) >>Feels like an antenna problem. Wondering about the unused pin 10... SHOULD HAVE PUT THIS MESSAGE OFF UNTIL AFTER THE SECOND CUP OF COFFEE THIS MORNING. HERE'S THE CORRECTED IMAGE FOR THE TWO ANTENNA CONNECTIONS TO THE KX-145 . . . Emacs! >It appears that the KX145 is among the first generation >of Nav/Com transceivers wehrein the there is only one >receiver . . . you can either listen to a comm channel >or use it to navigate . . . but not both at the same time. > >Later radios were 1-1/2 Nav/Comm indicating that there >is a full-up transmitter-receiver pair PLUS a separate >nav receiver. > >The early nav/comms had two antennas too. The first >was the vertical 'whisker' for transmit only; the >second was the horizontal-V for receive only of >either comm or nav. > >This explains the pin 10 connection which is the >center conductor of your receive coax. If you're >not connected to that pin, then receive performance >would be VERY poor. > >If you don't plan to use the vor feature, then >you can install an antenna relay . . . > > >Emacs! > > . . . that is wired into your microphone >push to talk switch to let you receive on >the comm-whisker and transfer it to the >trasmitter during talk-time. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 24, 2013
Subject: AHRS Mounting
From: Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com>
Stan, Here is a photo of my mounting of dual AHRS boxes on a bracket spanning the longerons aft of the rear baggage compartment. Notice that the AHRS units are inclined at the same angle as the panel. You can also see the brass hardware using jam nuts to lock the hardware and a dab of indicating lacquer on each. The bracket is attached to the longerons with SS hardware. Although the SS hardware is slightly magnetic as indicated by testing with a permanent magnet they don't appear to affect the indication or operation of the AHRS units. Chris Stone RV-8 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 24, 2013
Subject: AHRS Mounting
From: Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com>
Stan, Here is a photo of my mounting of dual AHRS boxes on a bracket spanning the longerons aft of the rear baggage compartment. Notice that the AHRS units are inclined at the same angle as the panel. You can also see the brass hardware using jam nuts to lock the hardware and a dab of indicating lacquer on each. The bracket is attached to the longerons with SS hardware. Although the SS hardware is slightly magnetic as indicated by testing with a permanent magnet they don't appear to affect the indication or operation of the AHRS units. Chris Stone RV-8 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 24, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: King KX145 pin out, pin 10
At 11:35 AM 9/23/2013, you wrote: >I have a KX145 manual. It there's any info I can look up to help >with this issue, drop me a note. > >Bob, I'm still in the process of scanning it so you can add it to >your collection. Just hasn't made it to the top of the priority list. Understand. No biggie . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 24, 2013
Failed again. The DC to DC voltage booster arrived from China. I connected it to the battery bus through an inline fuse and an on-off switch. The output of the voltage booster is connected to Dynon D-180 pin 15, the external backup power input. When the primary power to the D-180 pin 1 was shut off, the D-180 stayed on for a few seconds, then rebooted, shut off and rebooted, shut off and rebooted, over and over. The output of the DC to DC booster is set at 13 VDC. I then measured the voltage with the digital meter set to the AC range. It measured 28 volts AC. The D-180 must not like that. I tried connecting a 22,000 microfarad capacitor to the output of the DC to DC booster, but that did not help. So I removed the voltage booster and gave up on that idea. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409161#409161 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Sep 25, 2013
Joe, If you want, I'll send you my prototype DeSlumpifier for testing, since it is just sitting on my desk gathering cat hair. Contact me at Perihelion at charter dot net. Eric -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409174#409174 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 25, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
At 07:40 AM 9/25/2013, you wrote: > >Joe, > >If you want, I'll send you my prototype DeSlumpifier for testing, >since it is just sitting on my desk gathering cat hair. > >Contact me at Perihelion at charter dot net. Joe, it would be an excellent experiment to put Eric's hardware to the test in real hardware. In the mean time, send me the booster you bought and let me do some tests on it as well. There should be NO significant AC component on its output. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 25, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
At 08:14 PM 9/24/2013, you wrote: > >Failed again. >The DC to DC voltage booster arrived from China. I connected it to >the battery bus through an inline fuse and an on-off switch. The >output of the voltage booster is connected to Dynon D-180 pin 15, >the external backup power input. When the primary power to the >D-180 pin 1 was shut off, the D-180 stayed on for a few seconds, >then rebooted, shut off and rebooted, shut off and rebooted, over >and over. The output of the DC to DC booster is set at 13 VDC. I >then measured the voltage with the digital meter set to the AC >range. It measured 28 volts AC. The D-180 must not like that. I >tried connecting a 22,000 microfarad capacitor to the output of the >DC to DC booster, but that did not help. So I removed the voltage >booster and gave up on that idea. >Joe > >-------- >Joe Gores > > Which booster did you order? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 25, 2013
Bob, I communicated privately with Eric and he is sending me his DeSlumpifier for testing. Thanks Eric. OK Bob, I will send you the voltage booster. I have your address: PO Box 130. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409216#409216 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 25, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
At 02:59 PM 9/25/2013, you wrote: > >Bob, >I communicated privately with Eric and he is sending me his >DeSlumpifier for testing. Thanks Eric. >OK Bob, I will send you the voltage booster. I have your address: PO Box 130. >Joe Which booster did you order? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 25, 2013
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Auto-DC-Boost-Buck-Adjustable-Converter-Solar-Volt-Regulator-4-5-32V-to-1-25-32V-/350854774856?ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:3160 Above is a link to the voltage booster that I ordered. It only cost $3.25. They say you get what you pay for. It cost a little more than some others, but still cheap. The copper coils looked impressive compared to some other units without them. I can not find any more like mine for sale on eBay. People must not be satisfied with them or else they would still be for sale. I bench tested it before giving the seller positive feedback. But I neglected to check the AC component of the output until it failed to power the Dynon D-180. Do you still want me to send the unit to you Bob, or should we just consider it a poor design and toss it? Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409234#409234 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 25, 2013
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
Joe, all these DC to DC converters have ripple on their outputs, because th ey have to convert the input DC to AC, then rectify it and filter it on the way out.- On this particular model, you will see 180 KHz ripple plus har monics.- Unfortunately, the ripple amplitude is not specified.- On top of that, it is not protected for input reverse polarity.- I believe you m entioned earlier that you tried switching input leads to see if the AC comp onent went away.=0A=0A=0AI personally would not buy this product without th e output ripple spec defined, especially for aviation applications.- I'm also leery of Made in China products, although I know some are excellent. =0A=0A-=0AHenador Titzoff=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A Fro m: user9253 =0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0ASe nt: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 7:55 PM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment=0A =0A=0A--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" =0A=0Ahttp://www.ebay.com/itm/Auto -DC-Boost-Buck-Adjustable-Converter-Solar-Volt-Regulator-4-5-32V-to-1-25-32 V-/350854774856?ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:3160=0AAbove is a link to the vol tage booster that I ordered.- It only cost $3.25.- They say you get wha t you pay for.- It cost a little more than some others, but still cheap. - The copper coils looked impressive compared to some other units without them.- I can not find any more like mine for sale on eBay.- People mus t not be satisfied with them or else they would still be for sale.- I ben ch tested it before giving the seller positive feedback.- But I neglected to check the AC component of the output until it failed to power the Dynon D-180.- Do you still want me to send the unit to you Bob, or should we j ust consider it a poor design and toss it?=0AJoe=0A=0A--------=0AJoe Gores =0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.co ============= ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Yahoo hasbroucka" <hasbroucka(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: De-Slumpifier, Voltage Buffer to Prevent Brownout
Date: Sep 26, 2013
> I built and tested the 12V De-Slumpifier and it behaves very well with no > surprises. OK, I'll bite. What is a De-Slumpifier? > The supercaps behave almost exactly > like a 250,000 uF/20V capacitor bank which used to fit into a suitcase. I' take a stab that this is a replacement for the typical filter Capacitor for Alternator, and if so does your device save weight? Alan , HasbrouckA(at)yahoo.com SeaRey Amphibian, framework and hull assembled and covered. Working on VFR avionics and wiring (Dynon Skyview full suite)and Paint. Top Priority is keep it light, and place weight forward! > I don't have a publishable test protocol, but for general > purposes this is a good design that can be used for many anti-slump > applications. If there is sufficient interest, I will make a PCB and maybe > a kit of parts. > > Note how much space remains inside the box. The 35W resistor and heatsink > and one diode is under the perf board. > > I added an optional LED indicator. > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408239#408239 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/slumpless_12v_buffer_136.pdf > http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1000038_899.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1000037_104.jpg > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "R. curtis" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: De-Slumpifier, Voltage Buffer to Prevent Brownout
Date: Sep 26, 2013
> OK, I'll bite. What is a De-Slumpifier? It's a device to make us old guys stand up straight!! ;-} Roger -- Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 26, 2013
The 28 volts AC that I measured using a cheap digital meter in the hangar was completely wrong. Testing the DC -DC voltage booster in my home workshop, my Fluke 76 true RMS meter displayed 1.6mv AC. My oscilloscope showed 12mv peak to peak ripple at a frequency of 400KHz. I connected a 1141 automotive lamp (1.4 amp) to the ouput of the voltage booster to simulate the Dynon D-180 load. Even though the voltage booster was set at 13 volts with no load, under load the voltage dropped over time to less than 10 volts. So that is why the Dynon continuously booted up and shut off. The Dynon would see 13 volts and turn on. As the voltage from the booster dropped off, the Dynon would shut off. Next I adjusted the pot on the voltage booster to give 25 volts output with no load. Then I connected the lamp. The voltage immediately dropped to 13 volts, then slowly dropped to less than 10 volts over a period of about 3 minutes. I noticed that negative input and negative output are connected together on the circuit board. It seems that the output voltage drops off as the IC heats up. It does not get hot enough to burn, but it is too hot to hold a finger on. I have concluded that if this voltage booster gets its power from the starter circuit, it should prevent a brownout during engine start. However, it is incapable of supplying power for longer than a few seconds. To Henador, no I never reversed the input polarity. To Bob, since I have bench tested the voltage booster, I will not send it to you unless you still want it. Do you? I will test Eric's DeSlumpifier when it arrives. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409274#409274 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Orth" <mosurf(at)xplornet.com>
Subject: Re: De-Slumpifier, Voltage Buffer to Prevent Brownout
Date: Sep 26, 2013
>It's a device to make us old guys stand up straight!! ;-} Roger Oh, Viagra. Now I get it. Michael -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: R. curtis Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 6:34 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: De-Slumpifier, Voltage Buffer to Prevent Brownout > OK, I'll bite. What is a De-Slumpifier? It's a device to make us old guys stand up straight!! ;-} Roger -- Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 26, 2013
From: D L Josephson <dlj04(at)josephson.com>
Subject: Re: failed (?) brownout experiment
The ebay board looks like it uses an LM2577 regulator. I've built a few things with this part and it's sometimes tricky to tame. The characteristics of the inductor, diode and compensation capacitor are critical, see the TI datasheet. At low currents it will work fine with wide variations in components, but once you draw significant current even for a short time the circuit can misbehave. -- David Josephson ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: failed (?) brownout experiment
From: Tcwtech <rnewman(at)tcwtech.com>
Date: Sep 26, 2013
I realize that many of those on this list are interested in the educational experience of solving some of these interesting problems we run into with our electrically oriented aircraft. I totally respect that. However, I did want to address the issue of brown out protection for some of the critical devices such as efis and engine monitors. We do sell a line of products specifically for this purpose. They are purpose built dc:dc converters that take as little as 4 volts in and boost it to a steady 12 volts. Thereby providing stabilized power to the connected loads. The product line is known as IPS, Intelligent Power Stabilizer and is available in 14 and 24 volt models at various output current levels. Also some of the banter going on regarding the operation at very low voltages is very much true, recognizing that we came up with a creative solution for which we received a US patent that is implemented I'm these products. So our IPS units do operate smoothly and properly to 4 volts and below. All the details are on www.Tcwtech.Com Thanks Bob Newman RV-10. N541RV Sent from my iPhone On Sep 26, 2013, at 1:59 PM, D L Josephson wrote: > > The ebay board looks like it uses an LM2577 regulator. I've built a few things with this part and it's sometimes tricky to tame. The characteristics of the inductor, diode and compensation capacitor are critical, see the TI datasheet. At low currents it will work fine with wide variations in components, but once you draw significant current even for a short time the circuit can misbehave. > > -- > David Josephson > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: failed (?) brownout experiment
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Sep 26, 2013
I'm not so sure... The description and photos of the board Joe bought show a buck/boost unit, but the LM2577 is a boost/flyback IC. With the part number obliterated in the eBay photos, we can't really know for sure. That was probably done because the IC is a black market knockoff, which I believe is common on these kinds of inexpensive boards from China. How else do they deliver them halfway around the world for the price of the IC alone? A quick search on Digi-Key revealed a number of adjustable buck/boost ICs from Linear Technologies and ON Semiconductor in the DDPAK/TO-263 package, but none with a 180kHz switching frequency. Hmmm.... Besides the difficulty David mentioned below (in selecting just the right components to support a switching regulator), there's also their sensitivity to board layout. If that isn't done right, even the perfect components can't help. Eric On Sep 26, 2013, at 10:59 AM, D L Josephson wrote: > The ebay board looks like it uses an LM2577 regulator. I've built a few things with this part and it's sometimes tricky to tame. The characteristics of the inductor, diode and compensation capacitor are critical, see the TI datasheet. At low currents it will work fine with wide variations in components, but once you draw significant current even for a short time the circuit can misbehave. > > -- > David Josephson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
At 06:55 PM 9/25/2013, you wrote: > >http://www.ebay.com/itm/Auto-DC-Boost-Buck-Adjustable-Converter-Solar-Volt-Regulator-4-5-32V-to-1-25-32V-/350854774856?ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:3160 >Above is a link to the voltage booster that I ordered. It only cost >$3.25. They say you get what you pay for. It cost a little more >than some others, but still cheap. The copper coils looked >impressive compared to some other units without them. I can not >find any more like mine for sale on eBay. People must not be >satisfied with them or else they would still be for sale. I bench >tested it before giving the seller positive feedback. But I >neglected to check the AC component of the output until it failed to >power the Dynon D-180. Do you still want me to send the unit to you >Bob, or should we just consider it a poor design and toss it? No, go ahead and send it to me. This part my be performing exactly as it was predicted. It's probably too small for the application. I'm not sure about the "AC component" I'll look at that when it gets here. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Failed brownout battery experiment
At 10:34 AM 9/26/2013, you wrote: > >The 28 volts AC that I measured using a cheap digital meter in the >hangar was completely wrong. Testing the DC -DC voltage booster in >my home workshop, my Fluke 76 true RMS meter displayed 1.6mv AC. My >oscilloscope showed 12mv peak to peak ripple at a frequency of >400KHz. I connected a 1141 automotive lamp (1.4 amp) to the ouput >of the voltage booster to simulate the Dynon D-180 load. Even >though the voltage booster was set at 13 volts with no load, under >load the voltage dropped over time to less than 10 volts. So that >is why the Dynon continuously booted up and shut off. The Dynon >would see 13 volts and turn on. As the voltage from the booster >dropped off, the Dynon would shut off. > Next I adjusted the pot on the voltage booster to give 25 volts > output with no load. Then I connected the lamp. The voltage > immediately dropped to 13 volts, then slowly dropped to less than > 10 volts over a period of about 3 minutes. > I noticed that negative input and negative output are connected > together on the circuit board. It seems that the output voltage > drops off as the IC heats up. It does not get hot enough to burn, > but it is too hot to hold a finger on. > I have concluded that if this voltage booster gets its power from > the starter circuit, it should prevent a brownout during engine > start. However, it is incapable of supplying power for longer than > a few seconds. > To Henador, no I never reversed the input polarity. >To Bob, since I have bench tested the voltage booster, I will not >send it to you unless you still want it. Do you? >I will test Eric's DeSlumpifier when it arrives. This confirms my suspicion that the part was too small for the task. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: failed (?) brownout experiment
At 11:47 PM 9/26/2013, you wrote: > >I'm not so sure... > >The description and photos of the board Joe bought show a buck/boost >unit, but the LM2577 is a boost/flyback IC. With the part number >obliterated in the eBay photos, we can't really know for sure. That >was probably done because the IC is a black market knockoff, which I >believe is common on these kinds of inexpensive boards from >China. How else do they deliver them halfway around the world for >the price of the IC alone? The power requirements are simply too great for any of the LM2577 class devices irrespective of their pedigree. I would have tride a converter more along these lines . . . http://tinyurl.com/n7rsteo Given the very short and widely spaced loading in this application, the heat sink would not be necessary . . . but the ability to grunt a 50W+ load is critical to preventing it from falling out of bed. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: De-Slumpifier, Voltage Buffer to Prevent Brownout
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Sep 27, 2013
> OK, I'll bite. What is a De-Slumpifier? De-Slumpifier: A Supercapacitor device to prevent voltage slumps. Particularly to prevent microprocessors from rebooting when the battery voltage is pulled down trying to start the aircraft. This particular design is for 12V and has 250,000 uF. It can be modified if you understand what it does, to support many similar applications. I have posted schematics and parts list and my giant giant enormous hand holding a prototype (elsewhere here). > I'll take a stab that this is a replacement for the typical filter Capacitor for Alternator, and if so does your device save weight? A typical filter caps is a pretty small and simple part. You wouldn't save much, I think. > SeaRey Amphibian, framework and hull assembled and covered. Working on VFR avionics and wiring (Dynon Skyview full suite)and Paint. Top Priority is keep it light, and place weight forward! If you aren't using my special Super-8-CCA battery cable, then you haven't yet heard about it. See may website. Buy 50'. Save pounds. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409348#409348 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2013
Subject: Multiplexing 7-segment LED displays
From: James Kilford <james(at)etravel.org>
I'm wondering if anyone can answer this question: I'd like to build a new fuel gauge based around 7-segment LED displays, driven by a PIC / Arduino, etc. Instead of running dozens of IO lines, I'd like to multiplex the displays so that the total number of lines is 7 + (no. of digits). The idea would be to switch on a common line for each digit in turn, and set the state for the seven segment lines for the digit that's currently lit. I hope that makes sense. Anyway, I'm sure the software will be straightforward enough (he says!) but it's the circuitry with which I need some help. Can anyone recommend a few components to drive the LED displays from the PIC, along with a circuit diagram? I have a bunch of resistors and general purpose transistors in my electronics kit. I'd probably test this on a PIC18F4680, because I have a neat little prototype board with this particular chip, along with HDSP-315E 7-segment digits, which is a common anode type. Happy to share my findings with anyone who's interested! Many thanks, James ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Multiplexing 7-segment LED displays
At 11:20 AM 9/27/2013, you wrote: I'm wondering if anyone can answer this question:=C2 I'd like to build a new fuel gauge based around 7-segment LED displays, driven by a PIC / Arduino, etc. =C2 Instead of running dozens of IO lines, I'd like to multiplex the displays so that the total number of lines is 7 + (no. of digits). =C2 The idea would be to switch on a common line for each digit in turn, and set the state for the seven segment lines for the digit that's currently lit. =C2 I hope that makes sense. That's the way it's usually done. I don't think anybody runs multiple 7-segment displays statically. Anyway, I'm sure the software will be straightforward enough (he says!) but it's the circuitry with which I need some help. =C2 Can anyone recommend a few components to drive the LED displays from the PIC, along with a circuit diagram? =C2 I have a bunch of resistors and general purpose transistors in my electronics kit. =C2 I'd probably test this on a PIC18F4680, because I have a neat little prototype board with this particular chip, along with HDSP-315E 7-segment digits, which is a=C2 common anode type.=C2 The pull down capability of a PIC port is on the order of 30mA Your common anode displays would be switched on, in turn, by pulling down on the base of a PNP transistor. The collector of said transistor would drive the anode of one display . . . possible fitted with a resistor to limit current. This image shows the general arrangement . . . in this case segment current limits are in the cathodes . . . it can be on the anode side if you light only one segment at a time, if it's one full digit at a time, you'll want to use cathode positioned current limits. See http://tinyurl.com/ks5aos5 http://embedded-lab.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Lab11_C There are a host of approaches for both schematic and source codes published on the net. See: http://tinyurl.com/m5wffq5 How do you plan to sense liquid level? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2013
Subject: Re: Multiplexing 7-segment LED displays
From: James Kilford <james(at)etravel.org>
> This image shows the general arrangement Thanks Bob, that's a great help, thanks. I'll breadboard it and see how I get on. Presumably with your circuit, if I assemble the transistor / LED arrays, I can test them by putting 5V into the resistors, just like the PIC outputs would. > How do you plan to sense liquid level? I have three of the excellent Princeton capacitive sensors. After calibration, they will linearise a fuel tank's output and give a 0 - 5V output from empty to full. I've produced a version using a colour LCD, and the software works well, but it's not very clear in direct sunlight. The great thing about the LCD though is the ability to show fuel quantities in red or green according to the level in a particular tank, e.g. <10% = red. The ideal thing would be to find a nice bright OLED display. That would be the best of both worlds. I have ideas about an all-in-one OLED instrument that would show fuel, temperatures, pressures, etc. -- a complete engine management system in one drop-in 2-1/4" or 3-1/8" package. I have thermocouple chips ready to do some prototyping... but I'm short on time and have to stick to paying projects at the moment. James On 27 September 2013 19:37, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 11:20 AM 9/27/2013, you wrote: > I'm wondering if anyone can answer this question:=C3=82 > > I'd like to build a new fuel gauge based around 7-segment LED displays, > driven by a PIC / Arduino, etc. =C3=82 Instead of running dozens of IO li nes, > I'd like to multiplex the displays so that the total number of lines is 7 + > (no. of digits). =C3=82 > > The idea would be to switch on a common line for each digit in turn, and > set the state for the seven segment lines for the digit that's currently > lit. =C3=82 > > I hope that makes sense. > > That's the way it's usually done. I don't think anybody runs > multiple 7-segment displays statically. > > Anyway, I'm sure the software will be straightforward enough (he says!) > but it's the circuitry with which I need some help. =C3=82 Can anyone rec ommend > a few components to drive the LED displays from the PIC, along with a > circuit diagram? =C3=82 I have a bunch of resistors and general purpose > transistors in my electronics kit. =C3=82 I'd probably test this on a > PIC18F4680, because I have a neat little prototype board with this > particular chip, along with HDSP-315E 7-segment digits, which is a=C3=82 common > anode type.=C3=82 > > The pull down capability of a PIC port is on the order > of 30mA Your common anode displays would be switched > on, in turn, by pulling down on the base of a PNP transistor. > The collector of said transistor would drive the anode > of one display . . . possible fitted with a resistor to > limit current. > > This image shows the general arrangement . . . in this > case segment current limits are in the cathodes . . . it > can be on the anode side if you light only one segment at > a time, if it's one full digit at a time, you'll want to > use cathode positioned current limits. > > See http://tinyurl.com/ks5aos5 > [image: http://embedded-lab.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Lab11_C] > > There are a host of approaches for both schematic and source > codes published on the net. > > See: > > http://tinyurl.com/m5wffq5 > > How do you plan to sense liquid level? > > ** > > ** Bob . . . > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Matronics Email List Wiki!
From: "mahjabeen" <rainasmith55(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 27, 2013
i would like to appreciate you for sharing such a great info with us :o -------- andy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409400#409400 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Multiplexing 7-segment LED displays
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Sep 28, 2013
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=LED+displays+from+the+PIC -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409417#409417 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Matronics Email List Wiki!
At 11:29 PM 9/27/2013, you wrote: > >i would like to appreciate you for sharing such a great info with us > :o > >-------- >andy Thank you sir. I'm pleased that you find value in the work. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2013
Subject: W.L. Gore replacement for RG-400
From: Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com>
Gore RG316 is much smaller and lighter than RG400... probably a lot more $$$. I haven't found a source for small quantities or even a sample for that matter. Has anyone any info as to a source? Chris Stone RV-8 W. L. Gore & Assoc. Inc. has introduced a new, lighter-weight RG coaxial cable<http://www.gore.com/en_xx/products/cables/coaxial/optimized_RG_cable. html> for aircraft communication and navigation systems, providing significant weight savings without compromising performance. When compared to standard RG coaxial cables, these new cables reduce operating costs because they are as much as 20 percent lighter with a 15 percent smaller diameter. This smaller and lighter profile coaxial cable still meets the stringent electrical and mechanical requirements of MIL-T-81790 and EN 3475-503. The cables engineered for electrical impedance of 50 and 75=C3=8E=C2=A9 also exceed th e electrical requirements of MIL-C-17G. The special cable design of Gore's new RG coaxial cables facilitates easier routing and improved abrasion resistance for the cables. The jacketing material used in the cable's construction significantly reduces size while maintaining shielding effectiveness, controlling impedance, and withstanding operating temperatures ranging from -65 to 150C. [image: Gore's New, Lighter-Weight RG Coaxial Cable] RG316 GORECable nom. diameter2.54 mm 0.100 inch2.18 mm 0.086 inch2.49 mm 0.098 inch2.07 mm 0.082 inchWeight160 g/m 10.8 lbs/1000ft12.4 g/m 7.96 lbs/1000ft18.0 g/ma 12.2 lbs/1000ft12.7 g/m 8.13 lbs/1000ftJacket materialFEPEngineered FluoropolymerFEPEngineered FluoropolymerOperating temperature range-65=C2=B0C up to 150=C2=B0C -85F up to 302F-65=C2=B0C up to 150=C2=B0C -85F up to 302F-65=C2=B0C up to 150=C2=B0C -85F up to 302F-65=C2=B0C up to 150=C2=B0C -85F up to 302F*Property**RG179 Standard*RG179 GORERG316 StandardRG316 GOREMax. Voltage1200 V1200 V1200 V1200 VCapacitance63.6 pF/m 19.4 pF/ft63.6 pF/m 19.4 pF/ft96.43 pF/m 29.4 pF/ft96.43 pF/m 29.4 pF/ftImpedance75 +3/-3 =CE=A975 +3/-3 =CE=A950 +2/-2 =CE=A950 +2/-2 =CE=A9Attenuation typical/max @ 100 MHz min/max @ 400 MHz min/max @ 1.0 GHz min/maxdB/100feet 8.0/9.2 15.5/21.0 26.7/30.7dB/100feet 8.0/9.2 15.5/21.0 26.7/30.7dB/100feet 7.6/11.0 16.0/21.0 26.2/38.0dB/100feet 7.6/11.0 16.0/21.0 26.2/38.0Attenuation typical/max @ 100 MHz min/max @ 400 MHz min/max @ 1.0 GHz min/maxdB/30m 7.9/9.1 15.3/20.7 26.3/29.6dB/30m 7.9/9.1 15.3/20.7 26.3/29.6dB/30m 7.5/10.8 15.8/20.7 25.8/37.4dB/30m 7.5/10.8 15.8/20.7 25.8/37.4 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: W.L. Gore replacement for RG-400
Date: Sep 28, 2013
Several questions come to mind. How much weight do you think you=99ll save on the average plane?? (I would suspect almost nothing as the various cables don=99t amount to much in the first place) Using the numbers in the chart you provide if you have 250ft of coax in your plane you might save =C2=BD lb if the fittings weight the same. What fittings are used for terminating this cable, at what cost, how readily available and what tools are required for their installation?? Bob McC _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Cee Stone Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2013 9:14 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: W.L. Gore replacement for RG-400 Gore RG316 is much smaller and lighter than RG400... probably a lot more $$$. I haven't found a source for small quantities or even a sample for that matter. Has anyone any info as to a source? Chris Stone RV-8 W. L. Gore & Assoc. Inc. has introduced a new, <http://www.gore.com/en_xx/products/cables/coaxial/optimized_RG_cable.htm l> lighter-weight RG coaxial cable for aircraft communication and navigation systems, providing significant weight savings without compromising performance. When compared to standard RG coaxial cables, these new cables reduce operating costs because they are as much as 20 percent lighter with a 15 percent smaller diameter. This smaller and lighter profile coaxial cable still meets the stringent electrical and mechanical requirements of MIL-T-81790 and EN 3475-503. The cables engineered for electrical impedance of 50 and 75=C3=8E=C2=A9 also exceed the electrical requirements of MIL-C-17G. The special cable design of Gore's new RG coaxial cables facilitates easier routing and improved abrasion resistance for the cables. The jacketing material used in the cable's construction significantly reduces size while maintaining shielding effectiveness, controlling impedance, and withstanding operating temperatures ranging from -65 to 150C. Gore's New, Lighter-Weight RG Coaxial Cable <http://www.designnews.com/photo/285/285938-Gore_s_New_Lighter_Weight_RG_ Coaxial_Cable_A.jpg> RG316 GORE Cable nom. diameter 2.54 mm 0.100 inch 2.18 mm 0.086 inch 2.49 mm 0.098 inch 2.07 mm 0.082 inch Weight 160 g/m 10.8 lbs/1000ft 12.4 g/m 7.96 lbs/1000ft 18.0 g/ma 12.2 lbs/1000ft 12.7 g/m 8.13 lbs/1000ft Jacket material FEP Engineered Fluoropolymer FEP Engineered Fluoropolymer Operating temperature range -65=C2=B0C up to 150=C2=B0C -85F up to 302F -65=C2=B0C up to 150=C2=B0C -85F up to 302F -65=C2=B0C up to 150=C2=B0C -85F up to 302F -65=C2=B0C up to 150=C2=B0C -85F up to 302F Property RG179 Standard RG179 GORE RG316 Standard RG316 GORE Max. Voltage 1200 V 1200 V 1200 V 1200 V Capacitance 63.6 pF/m 19.4 pF/ft 63.6 pF/m 19.4 pF/ft 96.43 pF/m 29.4 pF/ft 96.43 pF/m 29.4 pF/ft Impedance 75 +3/-3 =CE=A9 75 +3/-3 =CE=A9 50 +2/-2 =CE=A9 50 +2/-2 =CE=A9 Attenuation typical/max @ 100 MHz min/max @ 400 MHz min/max @ 1.0 GHz min/max dB/100feet 8.0/9.2 15.5/21.0 26.7/30.7 dB/100feet 8.0/9.2 15.5/21.0 26.7/30.7 dB/100feet 7.6/11.0 16.0/21.0 26.2/38.0 dB/100feet 7.6/11.0 16.0/21.0 26.2/38.0 Attenuation typical/max @ 100 MHz min/max @ 400 MHz min/max @ 1.0 GHz min/max dB/30m 7.9/9.1 15.3/20.7 26.3/29.6 dB/30m 7.9/9.1 15.3/20.7 26.3/29.6 dB/30m 7.5/10.8 15.8/20.7 25.8/37.4 dB/30m 7.5/10.8 15.8/20.7 25.8/37.4 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: W.L. Gore replacement for RG-400
At 08:13 PM 9/28/2013, you wrote: >Gore RG316 is much smaller and lighter than >RG400... probably a lot more $$$. =C2 I haven't >found a source for small quantities or even a >sample for that matter. =C2 Has anyone any info as to a source? > >Chris Stone > >RV-8 RG316 is a contemporary incarnation of RG174 with modern, high temperature insulation and double shielding. It's been around for a long time and is offered from numerous sellers on eBay. Uses the same connectors/tooling as RG174. Popular with consumer WiFi and GPS antenna manufacturers. About twice the loss as RG400 but cheaper too. 40-75 dollars per hundred feet roll is the going street price. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Charging the Aux Battery
From: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Date: Sep 29, 2013
Bob and all This is probably a dumb question but I will make it anyway. In a Dual battery electric system architecture, like Z-14 for example, the Aux Battery will not be charging in flight unless the aux batt. Switch is flipped On (thus closing the Aux Batt contactor), right? Carlos ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Charging the Aux Battery
At 01:46 PM 9/29/2013, you wrote: > >Bob and all > >This is probably a dumb question but I will make it anyway. >In a Dual battery electric system architecture, like Z-14 for >example, the Aux Battery will not be charging in flight unless the >aux batt. Switch is flipped On (thus closing the Aux Batt contactor), right? > >Carlos Z-14 is dual battery/dual alternator, split-bus system. The aux battery is maintained by its dedicated alternator. In Z-14, normal ops are conducted with everything ON except the cross-feed contactor. On other dual battery systems with only one alternator and perhaps an aux alternator, then both battery contactors are closed during normal operations to be charged in parallel. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: Charging the Aux Battery
Date: Sep 30, 2013
Thanks Bob So you confirm that on Dual battery, One main Alternator and an Aux alternator, with no cross-feed contactor, the Aux battery contactor must be closed during normal operations otherwise the Aux Battery will not be charged. Then, what's the advantage of having 2 batteries? Only to have more electron juice available? Carlos -----Mensagem original----- De: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Robert L. Nuckolls, III Enviada: 30 de setembro de 2013 01:51 Para: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Assunto: Re: AeroElectric-List: Charging the Aux Battery --> At 01:46 PM 9/29/2013, you wrote: >--> > >Bob and all > >This is probably a dumb question but I will make it anyway. >In a Dual battery electric system architecture, like Z-14 for example, >the Aux Battery will not be charging in flight unless the aux batt. >Switch is flipped On (thus closing the Aux Batt contactor), right? > >Carlos Z-14 is dual battery/dual alternator, split-bus system. The aux battery is maintained by its dedicated alternator. In Z-14, normal ops are conducted with everything ON except the cross-feed contactor. On other dual battery systems with only one alternator and perhaps an aux alternator, then both battery contactors are closed during normal operations to be charged in parallel. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 30, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Charging the Aux Battery
At 09:22 AM 9/30/2013, you wrote: Thanks Bob So you confirm that on Dual battery, One main Alternator and an Aux alternator, with no cross-feed contactor, the Aux battery contactor must be closed during normal operations otherwise the Aux Battery will not be charged. Then, what's the advantage of having 2 batteries? Only to have more electron juice available? Essentially, yes . . . but capable of being partitioned into separate tasks should the alternator fail. During alternator outage, an Aux battery might be assigned the task of supporting an electrically dependent engine while the main battery would perhaps support an e-bus. This isn't just about storing 'more juice' . . . it's about selecting, crafting and operating an architecture that offers the most favorable failure modes effects analysis. FMEA is a simple exercised of looking at EVERY part of your electrical system and asking the questions that drive your decisions toward a more FAILURE TOLERANT design. I'll suggest you review these two pieces found on our website . . . http://tinyurl.com/kzfgtpt http://tinyurl.com/lpvth8d The answer to your question about dual batteries is broader than to explain their function. The question you need to answer first is "why would I think of having two batteries and how would they participate in a aerial dance contest where one or more of the contestants are throwing in the towel." This isn't about seeing the most reliable parts . . . it's about building the most reliable SYSTEM wherein absolute reliability of parts doesn't drive risk. It is much less expensive to design for failure tolerance than to buy only components with established reliability studies. My personal design goal for aircraft is to deprive any single failure of forcing me to break a sweat in the cockpit. Given a set of hardware limits and mission goals for the airplane, then the pieces need to be assembled in such a way as to minimize risk. Many of our brothers add 'backup batteries' as a salve for their apprehensions about lost of some really handy gadget on the panel . . . without consideration of the BIG PICTURE. My own apprehensions are best assuaged by the notion that even if my airplane's capabilities degrade to little better than a J-3, as long as the wings stay on, the engine keeps running and the flight controls are hooked up, I have a well understood opportunity to complete the flight comfortably. I've flown rented A-36 Bonanzas with LOTS of goodies on the panel without the slightest concern about the maintenance records for any particular appliance. This is because I fly with these things in my flight bag. http://tinyurl.com/d5mrjgh With fresh batteries installed before departure http://tinyurl.com/kjuhl67 Whether the salve for your apprehensions includes a second battery is a decision you need to answer by asking a LOT of other questions with simple answers that illustrate predictable consequences. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Charging the Aux Battery
Whether the salve for your apprehensions includes a second battery is a decision you need to answer by asking a LOT of other questions with simple answers that illustrate predictable consequences. P.S. Carlos, was your question purely academic or are you considering a two-battery system? If you care to share your musings here on the List, we can help you sort the bits and pieces. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: Charging the Aux Battery
Date: Oct 01, 2013
Bob Thank you for the dissertation about the theme I had proposed. I confess that I still didn't read it thoroughly, so I will have to digest it conveniently. Meanwhile, I can confirm that my question was not academic, I am building an RV-10 and did consider the Dual battery, One main Alternator - one Aux alternator system. So far, I am considering a variation of the Z-14 architecture, but still didn't reach the "end of the line" in what regards the final schematic, so would appreciate all suggestions. Regards Carlos -----Mensagem original----- De: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Robert L. Nuckolls, III Enviada: 1 de outubro de 2013 16:32 Para: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Assunto: RE: AeroElectric-List: Charging the Aux Battery --> Whether the salve for your apprehensions includes a second battery is a decision you need to answer by asking a LOT of other questions with simple answers that illustrate predictable consequences. P.S. Carlos, was your question purely academic or are you considering a two-battery system? If you care to share your musings here on the List, we can help you sort the bits and pieces. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Charging the Aux Battery
At 11:41 AM 10/1/2013, you wrote: > > >Bob > >Thank you for the dissertation about the theme I had proposed. >I confess that I still didn't read it thoroughly, so I will have to digest >it conveniently. > >Meanwhile, I can confirm that my question was not academic, I am building an >RV-10 and did consider the Dual battery, One main Alternator - one Aux >alternator system. > >So far, I am considering a variation of the Z-14 architecture, but still >didn't reach the "end of the line" in what regards the final schematic, so >would appreciate all suggestions. > >Regards >Carlos Understand. I presume your airplane will be Lycoming powered and has a accessory pad that will NOT be occupied with a vacuum pump. Do you plan to fly a significant portion of your use under instrument flight rules, over mountainous terrain or at night? Do you plan to have a gps aided wing-leveler or better? Engine electrically dependent in any way? You need to compile a list of every currently anticipated electro-whizzy. If you have actual running current for each device, record that value along. Peak currents too even if intermittent. Do any of these accessories feature built in back up batteries and/or connections brought out for dual power sourcing? How do you rate yourself for competence/confidence that under total loss of panel instrumentation, you could get to where you originally intended to go with flight bag back-ups? Since this is a 4-seated airplane, your approach toward risk mitigation is understandably more conservative. It's not necessary that your self- assessments be shared with the List but do put some thought into the skill set you plan to have in your bag of tricks by the time you're ready to launch with all the seats occupied. Far too many pilots have bought into the notion that performance translates directly into risk mitigation . . . an idea that is disproved with some frequency. I've read accident reports where pilots let their personal standards for skill relax when the airplane they bought had all the bells and whistles. In fact, they might have lived to tell their own dark-n-stormy night story over a suds had their personal skill sets been honed a bit better. If this were MY airplane, I'd be trading off cost of ownership and practical utility of every installed accessory while maintaining the notion that under the worst case conditions, I might have to dig the hand held radios out of the flight bag. A very tiny risk to be sure but it's your personal confidence level for making plan-C . . . D or whatever save your buns. Hence the real driver for choosing how much stuff you hang on the panel has more to do with how well you think you can do without it. If your confidence level is low, then a plan-b for loss of any particular item gets elevated in priority. THESE mental exercises will drive how many alternators, batteries, busses and kilobux worth of hardware will fly with you every flight whether routinely useful or not. So mission profiles, skill sets, FMEA and load analysis is where the planning starts. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: RE: Electric System architecture (was Charging the
Aux Battery)
Date: Oct 03, 2013
Please see answers below -----Mensagem original----- De: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Robert L. Nuckolls, III Enviada: 1 de outubro de 2013 22:18 Para: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Assunto: RE: AeroElectric-List: Charging the Aux Battery --> < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> At 11:41 AM 10/1/2013, you wrote: >< trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> > >Bob > >Thank you for the dissertation about the theme I had proposed. >I confess that I still didn't read it thoroughly, so I will have to >digest it conveniently. > >Meanwhile, I can confirm that my question was not academic, I am >building an >RV-10 and did consider the Dual battery, One main Alternator - one Aux >alternator system. > >So far, I am considering a variation of the Z-14 architecture, but >still didn't reach the "end of the line" in what regards the final >schematic, so would appreciate all suggestions. > >Regards >Carlos Understand. I presume your airplane will be Lycoming powered and has a accessory pad that will NOT be occupied with a vacuum pump. Correct Do you plan to fly a significant portion of your use under instrument flight rules, over mountainous terrain or at night? Not a significant portion. But it would be nice to be able to fly IFR and at night. Do you plan to have a gps aided wing-leveler or better? Better, planning an auto-pilot. Engine electrically dependent in any way? It is a IO-540 You need to compile a list of every currently anticipated electro-whizzy. If you have actual running current for each device, record that value along. Peak currents too even if intermittent. Already done an excel table with A consumptions Do any of these accessories feature built in back up batteries and/or connections brought out for dual power sourcing? Yes, the EFIS will be dual power sourcing. I am using a VP-X Pro box. How do you rate yourself for competence/confidence that under total loss of panel instrumentation, you could get to where you originally intended to go with flight bag back-ups? Well, not so sure, but I do like to fly with the old paper map over my knee. And I suppose an iPad with electronic charts will also travel in the glove box Since this is a 4-seated airplane, your approach toward risk mitigation is understandably more conservative. It's not necessary that your self- assessments be shared with the List but do put some thought into the skill set you plan to have in your bag of tricks by the time you're ready to launch with all the seats occupied. Yeah, right .... If this were MY airplane, I'd be trading off cost of ownership and practical utility of every installed accessory while maintaining the notion that under the worst case conditions, I might have to dig the hand held radios out of the flight bag. A very tiny risk to be sure but it's your personal confidence level for making plan-C . . . D or whatever save your buns. I also like to have an hand-held radio in the bag of tricks Hence the real driver for choosing how much stuff you hang on the panel has more to do with how well you think you can do without it. If your confidence level is low, then a plan-b for loss of any particular item gets elevated in priority. THESE mental exercises will drive how many alternators, batteries, busses and kilobux worth of hardware will fly with you every flight whether routinely useful or not. So mission profiles, skill sets, FMEA and load analysis is where the planning starts. Ok, now what do you think? Carlos ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 03, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Electric System architecture (was Charging
the Aux Battery) > > > Do any of these accessories feature built in > back up batteries and/or connections brought > out for dual power sourcing? >Yes, the EFIS will be dual power sourcing. >I am using a VP-X Pro box. Oopa . . . okay, there's not much I can do for you in terms of architecture . . . that's pretty much carved in stone. We can certainly continue to discuss application and suitability of various parts, but I'm not sure there's much I can contribute for architecture decisions that are not pre-determined out of the box. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 03, 2013
From: Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Subject: Dual voltage output from fuel quantity senders
I have 2 fuel gauges in my airplane that work on 12v and 5v, and only one (resistance type) sender. I am trying to figure out how to get both gauges to work and be accurate. The 12v gauge is a straight analogue device with a pointer. The 5v gauge is part of an EFIS. At present I am using the analogue gauge only and the EFIS is continually upset at having no fuel quantity input. I have looked into a solution using an Arduino, sampling the data in doesn't seem to be too difficult, using the analogue input and a voltage divider circuit to drop the input voltage. I think I can get the Arduino to drive something like a MCP41100 8 bit dual digital potentiometer as an output device, with the 2 channels one for each of the 12v & 5v circuits. However these devices work at 5v and low current. So my question to the smart people here is how to I use the output of these digipots to look to the gauges as though they are a 30-240 ohm fuel quantity sender? Regards, Peter ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Orth" <mosurf(at)xplornet.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Electric System architecture (was Charging
the Aux Battery)
Date: Oct 03, 2013
Bob & Carlos, What a great, and insightful, exchange of information and facts. Clear, concise, and easily readable. Keep it up, Michael ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- From: Carlos Trigo Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2013 12:00 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Electric System architecture (was Charging the Aux Battery) Please see answers below -----Mensagem original----- De: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Robert L. Nuckolls, III Enviada: 1 de outubro de 2013 22:18 Para: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Assunto: RE: AeroElectric-List: Charging the Aux Battery --> At 11:41 AM 10/1/2013, you wrote: > > >Bob > >Thank you for the dissertation about the theme I had proposed. >I confess that I still didn't read it thoroughly, so I will have to >digest it conveniently. > >Meanwhile, I can confirm that my question was not academic, I am >building an >RV-10 and did consider the Dual battery, One main Alternator - one Aux >alternator system. > >So far, I am considering a variation of the Z-14 architecture, but >still didn't reach the "end of the line" in what regards the final >schematic, so would appreciate all suggestions. > >Regards >Carlos Understand. I presume your airplane will be Lycoming powered and has a accessory pad that will NOT be occupied with a vacuum pump. Correct Do you plan to fly a significant portion of your use under instrument flight rules, over mountainous terrain or at night? Not a significant portion. But it would be nice to be able to fly IFR and at night. Do you plan to have a gps aided wing-leveler or better? Better, planning an auto-pilot. Engine electrically dependent in any way? It is a IO-540 You need to compile a list of every currently anticipated electro-whizzy. If you have actual running current for each device, record that value along. Peak currents too even if intermittent. Already done an excel table with A consumptions Do any of these accessories feature built in back up batteries and/or connections brought out for dual power sourcing? Yes, the EFIS will be dual power sourcing. I am using a VP-X Pro box. How do you rate yourself for competence/confidence that under total loss of panel instrumentation, you could get to where you originally intended to go with flight bag back-ups? Well, not so sure, but I do like to fly with the old paper map over my knee And I suppose an iPad with electronic charts will also travel in the glove box Since this is a 4-seated airplane, your approach toward risk mitigation is understandably more conservative. It's not necessary that your self- assessments be shared with the List but do put some thought into the skill set you plan to have in your bag of tricks by the time you're ready to launch with all the seats occupied. Yeah, right . If this were MY airplane, I'd be trading off cost of ownership and practical utility of every installed accessory while maintaining the notion that under the worst case conditions, I might have to dig the hand held radios out of the flight bag. A very tiny risk to be sure but it's your personal confidence level for making plan-C . . . D or whatever save your buns. I also like to have an hand-held radio in the bag of tricks Hence the real driver for choosing how much stuff you hang on the panel has more to do with how well you think you can do without it. If your confidence level is low, then a plan-b for loss of any particular item gets elevated in priority. THESE mental exercises will drive how many alternators, batteries, busses and kilobux worth of hardware will fly with you every flight whether routinely useful or not. So mission profiles, skill sets, FMEA and load analysis is where the planning starts. Ok, now what do you think? Carlos No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 09/30/13 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: ROTAX 912ULS ALT flicker..... Help?!
From: "SIDESLIP" <Chad2007(at)rogers.com>
Date: Oct 03, 2013
So, went for a flight today. Temps were chilly at 8 degrees Celsius. Fired her up with a voltage showing of 12.8 before turning the key. Fired right up. Then...... I noticed the ALT light showing a flicker, then to about half strength. Did this at all RPMS. It was showing a charge no problem, so I pulled the ALT breaker and reset. When I pulled the breaker, it dropped the charge. Push back in, and light flicker and back on. I decided to fly since it was in fact showing a charge. By the time the airplane was up to temps, it went off and never showed up again. Even in flight, I loaded the electrical system fully, and it didn't come back on. Any ideas? Here is the schematic from the airplane..... Thanks! Chad -------- C-GYXQ. 912ULS. 601XL-B Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409799#409799 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/image_712.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 03, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: ROTAX 912ULS ALT flicker..... Help?!
At 09:06 PM 10/3/2013, you wrote: > >So, went for a flight today. Temps were chilly at 8 degrees Celsius. >Fired her up with a voltage showing of 12.8 before turning the key. >Fired right up. Then...... I noticed the ALT light showing a >flicker, then to about half strength. Did this at all RPMS. It was >showing a charge no problem, so I pulled the ALT breaker and reset. >When I pulled the breaker, it dropped the charge. Push back in, and >light flicker and back on. I decided to fly since it was in fact >showing a charge. By the time the airplane was up to temps, it went >off and never showed up again. Even in flight, I loaded the >electrical system fully, and it didn't come back on. Any ideas? > >Here is the schematic from the airplane..... > >Thanks! The Ducatti (Rotax) rectifier/regulator 'warning' circuit is not a sophisticated source of data. If your voltmeter reports a normal/steady bus voltage and the light flickers . . . I would have more faith in the voltmeter. If it were my airplane, I would disconnect the warning output from the regulator and drive the light with a real, low voltage warning sensor that accurately deduces bus voltage and flashes the light when the bus is below 13.0 volts. Eric Jones offers such a device. We'll have a new one out in the next few weeks (software and hardware are in the proof of concept phase). Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ROTAX 912ULS ALT flicker..... Help?!
From: "SIDESLIP" <Chad2007(at)rogers.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2013
Thanks Bob! How do I go about getting one from Eric Jones? Chad -------- C-GYXQ. 912ULS. 601XL-B Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409818#409818 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: ROTAX 912ULS ALT flicker..... Help?!
At 04:40 AM 10/4/2013, you wrote: > >Thanks Bob! How do I go about getting one from Eric Jones? > >Chad See http://tinyurl.com/ngumthf Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: De-Slumpifier, Voltage Buffer to Prevent Brownout
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2013
Eric sent me his prototype DeSlumpifier for testing on my RV-12. Prior to intalling it, I cranked the engine a few times with the ignition switches shut off. With no internal backup battery, the D-180 re-booted each time the engine was cranked. Next I installed the DeSlumpifier in series with pin 1 of the Dynon D-180 (Master Power). During engine cranking, the D-180 did not re-boot. It continued to operate normally. I repeated the test several times, cranking the engine for two seconds, waiting for 10 seconds, then repeating. In each case, the D-180 continued to operate without re-booting. Next on the agenda is actual starting of the engine and flight testing. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409833#409833 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Dual voltage output from fuel quantity senders
At 03:26 PM 10/3/2013, you wrote: > > >I have 2 fuel gauges in my airplane that work on 12v and 5v, and >only one (resistance type) sender. I am trying to figure out how to >get both gauges to work and be accurate. The 12v gauge is a straight >analogue device with a pointer. The 5v gauge is part of an EFIS. At >present I am using the analogue gauge only and the EFIS is >continually upset at having no fuel quantity input. > >I have looked into a solution using an Arduino, sampling the data in >doesn't seem to be too difficult, using the analogue input and a >voltage divider circuit to drop the input voltage. I think I can get >the Arduino to drive something like a MCP41100 8 bit dual digital >potentiometer as an output device, with the 2 channels one for each >of the 12v & 5v circuits. However these devices work at 5v and low current. > >So my question to the smart people here is how to I use the output >of these digipots to look to the gauges as though they are a 30-240 >ohm fuel quantity sender? Assumptions: The input to your EFIS is 0-5 volts, high impedance with zero volts = zero fuel. The 30-240 ohm sender is minimum resistance at full fuel. The characteristics of your steam gauge are unknown but it's certain that the gauge is not a 'sensitive' voltmeter (i.e. movement that reads micro-amps). You need to hook it up on the bench like this and take some measurements: Emacs! Make a chart of instrument current draw, S-terminal voltage, and 'Sender' resistance for zero fuel, 1/4 fuel, 1/2 fuel, 3/4 fuel, and full fuel. I'm pretty sure you can do all that needs to be done with analog components (op amps etc) but we first need to characterize the steam guage . . . this is a bit like the game where somebody hands you a little box with 2 or more terminals on it. You get to 'probe' the box by measuring at the external terminals. The challenge is to describe what's inside the box. This task is a little simpler, we only need to know the DC characteristics of the guage for indications it THINKS are coming from the companion sensor end the tank. Yeah, that 10v supply is on purpose, we'll endeavor to regulate power to the guage for better prediction of the design. In fact, do the experiment twice, the second time with say 8 volts applied to the guage and see what those numbers are too. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: De-Slumpifier, Voltage Buffer to Prevent
Brownout At 09:34 AM 10/4/2013, you wrote: > >Eric sent me his prototype DeSlumpifier for testing on my >RV-12. Prior to intalling it, I cranked the engine a few times with >the ignition switches shut off. With no internal backup battery, >the D-180 re-booted each time the engine was cranked. Next I >installed the DeSlumpifier in series with pin 1 of the Dynon D-180 >(Master Power). During engine cranking, the D-180 did not >re-boot. It continued to operate normally. I repeated the test >several times, cranking the engine for two seconds, waiting for 10 >seconds, then repeating. In each case, the D-180 continued to >operate without re-booting. Next on the agenda is actual starting >of the engine and flight testing. >Joe > >-------- >Joe Gores > Good data sir. Thanks! Did you sent me the DC/DC converter you tried the first time? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2013
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Electric System architecture
At 03:34 PM 10/3/2013, you wrote: >Bob & Carlos, > >What a great, and insightful, exchange of information and facts. >Clear, concise, and easily readable. Since Carlos has a Vertical Power product in his airplane, this won't be a design study starting from a clean piece of paper but discussions for integrating accessories around the Vertical Power architecture can still be shared. I'm contemplating an article for KitPlanes that will describe the clean piece of paper approach to system architecture in an OBAM aircraft. This is a pretty strange idea for most pilots. The vast majority of OBAM aircraft emulate the architectures of TC aircraft. At the same time, TC aircraft are very cookie-cutter like in their design and manufacture. It's a whole new idea to flip through the z-figures (or a Vertical Power catalog) and contemplate the opportunities traded off with personal design goals. Too many builders have their battery, alternator and switches already attached to the airplane before they get serious about how they'll all work with each other to meet design goals not yet formalized. Getting the cart so far in front of the horse is not a high risk activity but it does limit opportunities to have a system that the builder understands because it's designed it to a goal as opposed to a collection of cherry-picked ideas thrown into a basket before the best possible recipe for success is discovered. I'll try to bring some of the thought processes proven useful in TC aviation for decades to what has become the real leading edge in light aircraft design and fabrication. The ideal evolution of a project has the recipe 98% defined before


August 29, 2013 - October 04, 2013

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