AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-md
December 07, 2013 - December 29, 2013
lands the airplane with rudder, trim and power.
Pulling up floorboards in the cockpit revealed a 40A
protected feeder to the windshield de-ice inverter
had been mis-positioned against the elevator control
cable during a maintenance operation. Over what had to
be many hours of operation, motion of the cable wore
through the insulation bringing the cable into contact
with the hot wire. The arcing and sparking was of
insufficient intensity to come to attention of crew
in spite of the fact that it was going on virtually
under their feet.
The copper wire was barely damaged. The breaker never
popped while the elevator cable eventually eroded through
and parted. Compare thermal properties of copper versus
steel . . . this explains why the best steel safes have
intermediate layers of copper in their construction. It's
EASY to burn through steel . . . next to impossible on copper.
This narrative explains the high order probability that
even if you DID get your 6AWG feeder faulted to
ground, it's most likely to be a soft fault that
burns a hole in your airplane while doing little
damage to the wire . . . and certainly far short of
getting it to smoke and/or open a fuse/breaker.
Adding 'protection' to this pathway doubles the
number of joints in the pathway and adds nothing
demonstrable in terms of fault response . . . which
is why the spam-can builders don't do it either.
Bob . . .
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Jeff,
J
Of course I rather have a crash in a car
that has seat
belts (as I always wear them ....)
My point is that we add technical things
... to ‘protect
us’ ... We could be equally safe if we took responsibility and
drove in such a
way that we did not have accidents – or at least had a lot less
..
Jan
From:
owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Luckey
Sent: 07 December 2013
21:22
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re:
AeroElectric-List:
Unprotected Feeder in Z Drawings
I'm not sure if you are being
serious in
this quote (perhaps you were being
facetious?):
The general
thought of
car safety is to add more things .. seat belts – airbags –
crumble zones etc
etc.. list goes on and on …
The net results is that we tend to drive faster .. We have
more
accidents .. maybe less people would die .. but then compared to what ?
If you are suggesting that
technology
has not made cars safer, that would be an inaccurate assertion.
The
advances in motor vehicle safety that you cite have increased safety
tremendously. See:
Accident rates have plummeted
over the
past 20 years despite large increases in the number of vehicles.
Automotive safety is fantastic example of making things safer by
applying
technology.
From: jan
<jan(at)claver.demon.co.uk>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December
7, 2013
3:22 AM
Subject: RE:
AeroElectric-List:
Unprotected Feeder in Z Drawings
Interesting
story.
My take on this is simply a question of ‘risk management’.
Lets say that ALL
planes that do not have this ‘extra fuse’ now suddenly get
this ‘extra fuse’ ..
do you think the risk is higher that something goes wrong with the fuse
.. the
extra connectors to fit the fuse .. how the fuse is fitted .. how it is
potentially fitted incorrectly etc…
IF .. the only
case of
‘something bad happened because this wire is not fused’ is
the incident that
you mention below .. Well … what do you think is more likely to
happen ….
Something wrong
will all
the 1000 of planes that now have ‘one more part that can go
wrong’ i.e. the
extra fuse … or a pen or something else lodging against the
bus and
shorting to ground ?
On YOUR plane
… how easy
is it for anything to actually lodge in the same place ? Suggest
looking
at best way to prevent something to lodge and short .. than to add
something
that has never been seen a ‘required’ before
….
I agree that
there are
very few things that are absolutely right or absolutely wrong .. (apart
from
when at school ;-) …then everything was always very black and
white ..
The more you
can ‘remove
from the plane’ the less you have that can go wrong … what
you are ‘left with’
…well .. you just need to analyze the risk and what happens when
it fail .. can
you reduce the risk … without adding another risk ..
The following
is not
related to aircrafts .. but I like to use it to make people thing about
risk ..
and how to reduce accidents …. I have no idea if it would
work .. but you
could argue the case ..
The general
thought of
car safety is to add more things .. seat belts – airbags –
crumble zones etc
etc.. list goes on and on …
The net results
is that
we tend to drive faster .. We have more accidents .. maybe less people
would
die .. but then compared to what ?
Here is my idea
for the
ultimate car safety device .. You remove seat belts and you make it a
legal
requirement that ALL steering wheels must have a 6” spike mounted
in the centre
.. pointing straight at your chest .. (and NO .. you can not wear a
bullet
proof west J ..)
Now you know
… if you do
not drive very carefully, no hard braking etc… … you are
not going to last very
long are you ? Looking at that 6” spike at the steering
wheel.
Sure some
people will die
..and some people who are driving very carefully will be hit by
someone who
does not … But will the OVERALL number of accidents go up
or go down ??
PS : will not
be fitting
a fuse on that wire … But I will look very very closely at
how it is run
…..
From:
owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Luckey
Sent: 07 December 2013
01:38
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re:
AeroElectric-List:
Unprotected Feeder in Z Drawings
Bob,
Ok, I don't disagree w/ any of the points made but let's play the
Devil's
Advocate/Worst Case Scenario game.
Several years ago in Germany Pilot A was flying an Extra 300 and he
looses his
pen. He finishes his flight but forgets to recover the pen.
A few
days later Pilot B takes the plane through several aerobatic maneuvers
which
dislodge the pen from where it was hiding and wedge it between the buss
on the
back of the breakers and the airframe causing a fault to ground.
Smoke in
the cockpit, panic, denial, etc but eventually Pilot B does the right
thing and
kills the master, lands plane, changes underwear, semi-happy
ending. Good
News: engine not electrically-dependent so engine keeps running:)
Bad News: The plane requires some serious re-wire because the feeder
melted
other wires in the loom. Sure, no one died but I certainly don't
want to
be Pilot B! If that feeder had been fused there would have been
no smoke
and no damage to wiring.
The
point is that simply installing the feeder w/ care & craftsmanship
may not
be enough. No matter how well that feeder was installed, it would
have
made no difference in this scenario. Unforeseen circumstances
could make
for a bad day for your electrical system. It may be impossible to
foresee
all possible bad scenarios so we want the design of the system to be as
fault
tolerant as possible.
Perhaps
putting a fuse in the feed line may be a "belt &
suspenders"
approach but I still don't see a real down side and, like I mentioned
earlier,
I sure don't want to be Pilot B.
BTW
Bob (and all) I certainly enjoy being able
to
explore & discuss these issues in cordial & intelligent ways -
whether
or not there's a right or wrong answer, I always learn
something.
From: "Robert
L.
Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December
6, 2013
10:29 AM
Subject: Re:
AeroElectric-List:
Unprotected Feeder in Z Drawings
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls,
III"
<nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectr
ic.com>
>
> That particular wire between battery feeders and distribution
busses has
existed in perhaps a quarter million production aircraft over the past
80+
years and to my knowledge, has never been fitted with such
protection.
>
> I find that fascinating...
>
> In my relatively simple mind I consider adding a fuse to the
feeder
> in question to have little or no down side and potentially
huge
> upside - preventing an in-flight fire. (not a fan of in-flight
fires)
Consider the consequences of opening that fuse
(or any other event causing that pathway to open)
in a TC aircraft. You loose EVERYTHING on the panel.
I.e. single point of failure for all accessories.
Yeah but . . . if the fuse opens, then there was
something 'wrong'.
Yes, but what? The FEMA process calls for
hypothesizing
every kind of event that can open the fuse and either (1)
crafting a plan-b or (2) suppressing the risk.
> So the downside is that there could be some innocuous event
> that I am unaware of which pops the proposed big fuse
> unnecessarily. (sounds a little ridiculous, but carry
on...)
> I can't think of anything like that but I'm not a genius so I
> thought I'd throw it out to The List to see if its collective
> wisdom knows about something I may have overlooked.
We have a huge data base from which to conduct that
assessment not the least of which are big bunches of
airplanes smaller bunches of qualification studies
and relatively tiny bunches of incidences that bent
aluminum and maybe even broke bones.
The NTSB narrative on aircraft accidents is accessible
here . . .
http://tinyurl.com/pqcdj4h>
Do a random search of FINAL REPORTS with your senses
attuned to causation with roots in human failings
(either in operation, maintenance or design) and those
which have causation in some physical failure
mechanism.
Instances that speak to any electrical will fall into
the second category for causation and will be a
minuscule portion of the whole . . . and
of those, faulting of a wire to ground is even
smaller.
In 40 years of flying, 1000+ hrs as pilot and
probably another 2000 as passenger/observer, I've
observed only two incidences of a popped breaker in
flight. NEITHER of those cases had root cause in a
wire faulted to ground - the fault needed to open
your proposed fuse.
The foundation for moving circuit protection off
the panel and reverting back to fuses is predicated
on similar experiences by thousands of other pilots.
Experiences suggesting that dedicating dollars, panel
space, weight and fabrication time to a breaker-panel
is not a good return on investment.
Bottom line is that you're many, many times more
likely to have a bad day in the cockpit for reasons
far removed from a hard ground fault on your 6AWG
bus feeder . . . and THAT because you didn't conduct
due diligence in its installation.
Same thing applies to torque on your prop bolts,
replacing a tire that's flopping cordage, taking
an extra close look at forecasts during icing season,
and a host of things we do that go to reducing
risk.
In the case of the bus feeder, the risks are not
so much to the wire as to the thing the wire touches.
Case in point: C90 on short final experiences
disconnect
of elevator cables. Pilot uses trim commands and power to
execute go-around, assesses the condition and successfully
lands the airplane with rudder, trim and power.
Pulling up floorboards in the cockpit revealed a 40A
protected feeder to the windshield de-ice inverter
had been mis-positioned against the elevator control
cable during a maintenance operation. Over what had to
be many hours of operation, motion of the cable wore
through the insulation bringing the cable into contact
with the hot wire. The arcing and sparking was of
insufficient intensity to come to attention of crew
in spite of the fact that it was going on virtually
under their feet.
The copper wire was barely damaged. The breaker never
popped while the elevator cable eventually eroded through
and parted. Compare thermal properties of copper
versus
steel . . . this explains why the best steel safes have
intermediate layers of copper in their construction. It's
EASY to burn through steel . . . next to impossible on
copper.
This narrative explains the high order probability that
even if you DID get your 6AWG feeder faulted to
ground, it's most likely to be a soft fault that
burns a hole in your airplane while doing little
damage to the wire . . . and certainly far short of
getting it to smoke and/or open a fuse/breaker.
Adding 'protection' to this pathway doubles the
number of joints in the pathway and adds nothing
demonstrable in terms of fault response . . . which
is why the spam-can builders don't do it either.
Bob . . .
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Lista
href="http://forums.matronics.com/"
target="_blank">http://forums.mat========
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Unprotected Feeder in Z Drawings |
Jeff,
As I see it, the website shows fatal accidents, not accidents, i.e. the row Motor
Vehicle Traffic Crashes is left vacant, whereas row Fatal Crashes is filled
in with the numbers you say decrease (18%) since 1994. If we assume that the
number of vehicles have increased since 1994, it is safe to also assume the number
of accidents have increased, but the website statistics show the number
of fatal accidents decreased. This means if the assumptions are correct, safety
features like what are stated below have indeed saved lives and possibly decreased
the severity of non-fatal injuries. I know I feel safer with modern seat
belts, air bags (the car kind, not the passenger kind), crumble zones, 4-wheel
disc brakes with ABS, etc. Perhaps better designed and maintained roads is
also a factor. I wonder how texting and looking at smartphones have affected
injuries and fatalities?
Henador Titzoff
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 12/7/13, Jeff Luckey wrote:
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Unprotected Feeder in Z Drawings
To: "aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com"
Date: Saturday, December 7, 2013, 1:22 PM
Jan,
I'm
not sure if you are being serious in this quote (perhaps you
were being facetious?):The
general thought of car safety is to
add more things .. seat belts airbags crumble zones
etc etc..
list goes on and on
The
net results is that we tend to drive
faster .. We have more accidents .. maybe less people would
die .. but then
compared to what ?
If
you are suggesting that technology has not made cars safer,
that would be an inaccurate assertion. The advances in
motor vehicle safety that you cite have increased safety
tremendously. See:
http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx
Accident
rates have plummeted over the past 20 years despite large
increases in the number of vehicles. Automotive safety
is fantastic example of making things safer by applying
technology.
...
From: jan
To:
aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent:
Saturday, December 7, 2013 3:22 AM
Subject: RE:
AeroElectric-List: Unprotected Feeder in Z Drawings
Hi
Jeff,
Interesting
story. My take on this
is simply a question of risk management. Lets say that
ALL planes
that do not have this extra fuse now suddenly get this
extra
fuse .. do you think the risk is higher that something
goes wrong with
the fuse .. the extra connectors to fit the fuse .. how the
fuse is fitted ..
how it is potentially fitted incorrectly
etc
IF ..
the only case of something
bad happened because this wire is not fused is the
incident that you mention
below .. Well what do you think is more likely to happen
.
Something
wrong will all the 1000 of
planes that now have one more part that can go wrong
i.e. the
extra fuse or a pen or something else lodging
against the bus and
shorting to ground ?
On
YOUR plane how easy is it for
anything to actually lodge in the same place ? Suggest
looking at best
way to prevent something to lodge and short .. than to add
something that has
never been seen a required before
.
I
agree that there are very few things
that are absolutely right or absolutely wrong .. (apart from
when at school ;-)
then everything was always very black and white
..
The
more you can remove from the
plane the less you have that can go wrong what you
are left
with well .. you just need to analyze the risk and
what happens
when it fail .. can you reduce the risk without adding
another risk ..
The
following is not related to aircrafts
.. but I like to use it to make people thing about risk ..
and how to reduce accidents
. I have no idea if it would work .. but you could
argue the case
..
The
general thought of car safety is to
add more things .. seat belts airbags crumble zones
etc etc..
list goes on and on
The
net results is that we tend to drive
faster .. We have more accidents .. maybe less people would
die .. but then
compared to what ?
Here
is my idea for the ultimate car
safety device .. You remove seat belts and you make it a
legal requirement that
ALL steering wheels must have a 6 spike mounted in the
centre ..
pointing straight at your chest .. (and NO .. you can not
wear a bullet proof
west J
..)
Now
you know if you do not drive
very carefully, no hard braking etc you are not going
to last
very long are you ? Looking at that 6 spike at the
steering wheel.
Sure
some people will die ..and some people
who are driving very carefully will be hit by someone who
does not
But will the OVERALL number of accidents go up or go down
??
J
Enjoy
the weekend ! I
Jan
PS :
will not be fitting a fuse on that
wire But I will look very very closely at how it
is run ..
From:
owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]
On Behalf Of
Jeff
Luckey
Sent: 07
December 2013 01:38
To:
aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re:
AeroElectric-List:
Unprotected Feeder in Z Drawings
Bob,
Ok, I don't disagree w/ any of the points made but
let's play the Devil's
Advocate/Worst Case Scenario game.
Several years ago in Germany Pilot A was flying an Extra 300
and he looses his
pen. He finishes his flight but forgets to recover the
pen. A few
days later Pilot B takes the plane through several aerobatic
maneuvers which
dislodge the pen from where it was hiding and wedge it
between the buss on the
back of the breakers and the airframe causing a fault to
ground. Smoke in
the cockpit, panic, denial, etc but eventually Pilot B does
the right thing and
kills the master, lands plane, changes underwear, semi-happy
ending. Good
News: engine not electrically-dependent so engine keeps
running:)
Bad News: The plane requires some serious re-wire because
the feeder melted
other wires in the loom. Sure, no one died but I
certainly don't want to
be Pilot B! If that feeder had been fused there would
have been no smoke
and no damage to wiring.
The
point is that simply installing the feeder w/ care &
craftsmanship may not
be enough. No matter how well that feeder was
installed, it would have
made no difference in this scenario. Unforeseen
circumstances could make
for a bad day for your electrical system. It may be
impossible to foresee
all possible bad scenarios so we want the design of the
system to be as fault
tolerant as possible.
Perhaps
putting a fuse in the feed line may be a "belt &
suspenders"
approach but I still don't see a real down side and,
like I mentioned earlier,
I sure don't want to be Pilot B.
BTW
Bob (and all) I certainly enjoy being able to
explore & discuss these issues in cordial &
intelligent ways - whether
or not there's a right or wrong answer, I always learn
something.
-Jeff
From:
"Robert L.
Nuckolls, III"
To:
aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday,
December 6, 2013
10:29 AM
Subject: Re:
AeroElectric-List:
Unprotected Feeder in Z Drawings
Nuckolls, III"
>
> That particular wire between battery feeders and
distribution busses has
existed in perhaps a quarter million production aircraft
over the past 80+
years and to my knowledge, has never been fitted with such
protection.
>
> I find that fascinating...
>
> In my relatively simple mind I consider adding a fuse
to the feeder
> in question to have little or no down side and
potentially huge
> upside - preventing an in-flight fire. (not a fan of
in-flight fires)
Consider the consequences of opening that fuse
(or any other event causing that pathway to open)
in a TC aircraft. You loose EVERYTHING on the panel.
I.e. single point of failure for all accessories.
Yeah but . . . if the fuse opens, then there was
something 'wrong'.
Yes, but what? The FEMA process calls for
hypothesizing
every kind of event that can open the fuse and either
(1)
crafting a plan-b or (2) suppressing the risk.
> So the downside is that there could be some innocuous
event
> that I am unaware of which pops the proposed big fuse
> unnecessarily. (sounds a little ridiculous, but
carry on...)
> I can't think of anything like that but I'm not
a genius so I
> thought I'd throw it out to The List to see if its
collective
> wisdom knows about something I may have overlooked.
We have a huge data base from which to conduct that
assessment not the least of which are big bunches of
airplanes smaller bunches of qualification studies
and relatively tiny bunches of incidences that bent
aluminum and maybe even broke bones.
The NTSB narrative on aircraft accidents is
accessible
here . . .
http://tinyurl.com/pqcdj4h
Do a random search of FINAL REPORTS with your senses
attuned to causation with roots in human failings
(either in operation, maintenance or design) and
those
which have causation in some physical failure
mechanism.
Instances that speak to any electrical will fall
into
the second category for causation and will be a
minuscule portion of the whole . . . and
of those, faulting of a wire to ground is even
smaller.
In 40 years of flying, 1000+ hrs as pilot and
probably another 2000 as passenger/observer,
I've
observed only two incidences of a popped breaker in
flight. NEITHER of those cases had root cause in a
wire faulted to ground - the fault needed to open
your proposed fuse.
The foundation for moving circuit protection off
the panel and reverting back to fuses is predicated
on similar experiences by thousands of other pilots.
Experiences suggesting that dedicating dollars,
panel
space, weight and fabrication time to a
breaker-panel
is not a good return on investment.
Bottom line is that you're many, many times more
likely to have a bad day in the cockpit for reasons
far removed from a hard ground fault on your 6AWG
bus feeder . . . and THAT because you didn't
conduct
due diligence in its installation.
Same thing applies to torque on your prop bolts,
replacing a tire that's flopping cordage, taking
an extra close look at forecasts during icing
season,
and a host of things we do that go to reducing
risk.
In the case of the bus feeder, the risks are not
so much to the wire as to the thing the wire
touches.
Case in point: C90 on short final experiences
disconnect
of elevator cables. Pilot uses trim commands and
power to
execute go-around, assesses the condition and
successfully
lands the airplane with rudder, trim and power.
Pulling up floorboards in the cockpit revealed a 40A
protected feeder to the windshield de-ice inverter
had been mis-positioned against the elevator control
cable during a maintenance operation. Over what had
to
be many hours of operation, motion of the cable wore
through the insulation bringing the cable into
contact
with the hot wire. The arcing and sparking was of
insufficient intensity to come to attention of crew
in spite of the fact that it was going on virtually
under their feet.
The copper wire was barely damaged. The breaker
never
popped while the elevator cable eventually eroded
through
and parted. Compare thermal properties of
copper versus
steel . . . this explains why the best steel safes
have
intermediate layers of copper in their construction.
It's
EASY to burn through steel . . . next to impossible
on copper.
This narrative explains the high order probability
that
even if you DID get your 6AWG feeder faulted to
ground, it's most likely to be a soft fault that
burns a hole in your airplane while doing little
damage to the wire . . . and certainly far short of
getting it to smoke and/or open a fuse/breaker.
Adding 'protection' to this pathway doubles
the
number of joints in the pathway and adds nothing
demonstrable in terms of fault response . . . which
is why the spam-can builders don't do it either.
Bob . . .
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Lista
href="http://forums.matronics.com/"
target="_blank">http://forums.mat===================
www.aeroelectric.comwww.buildersbooks.comwww.homebuilthelp.comwww.mypilotstore.comwww.mrrace.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
www.homebui= * Race Consulting http://www.matronics.com/cont-========================ank"
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://wt;
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Unprotected Feeder in Z Drawings |
| From: | Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> |
There is an interesting psychological factor that I've heard called "risk co
mpensation" that applies here. For example, when football players have sligh
tly better helmets, they feel less vulnerable, and thus hit harder. The net r
esult is an increase in head trauma. It's sort of like having an airplane wi
th an emergency parachute. Would you ever find yourself more likely to take a
weather or mechanical risk if you knew, that if all else failed, you could p
ull a lever and float relatively safely to the ground? Experience shows tha
t the human brain is wired in such a way that we can easily fall into that t
rap, so it's something that all aviators should be aware of. The FAA sort of
addressed it in a very old training video about a new Bonanza owner who kee
ps saying that his plane "has enough power to take him anywhere." At the ri
sk of spoiling the ending for those who haven't seen the video, it turns out
that he was wrong.
On Dec 7, 2013, at 17:30, jan wrote:
> Jeff,
>
> J
>
> Of course I rather have a crash in a car that has seat belts (as I always w
ear them ....)
>
> My point is that we add technical things ... to =98protect us
=99 ... We could be equally safe if we took responsibility and drove in such
a way that we did not have accidents =93 or at least had a lot less .
.
>
> Jan
>
>
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelect
ric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Luckey
> Sent: 07 December 2013 21:22
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Unprotected Feeder in Z Drawings
>
> Jan,
>
> I'm not sure if you are being serious in this quote (perhaps you were bein
g facetious?):
> The general thought of car safety is to add more things .. seat belts
=93 airbags =93 crumble zones etc etc.. list goes on and on
>
> The net results is that we tend to drive faster .. We have more accidents .
. maybe less people would die .. but then compared to what ?
>
> If you are suggesting that technology has not made cars safer, that would b
e an inaccurate assertion. The advances in motor vehicle safety that you ci
te have increased safety tremendously. See:
>
> http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx
>
> Accident rates have plummeted over the past 20 years despite large increas
es in the number of vehicles. Automotive safety is fantastic example of mak
ing things safer by applying technology.
>
> ...
>
> From: jan <jan(at)claver.demon.co.uk>
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, December 7, 2013 3:22 AM
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Unprotected Feeder in Z Drawings
>
> Hi Jeff,
>
> Interesting story. My take on this is simply a question of =98risk m
anagement=99. Lets say that ALL planes that do not have this =98
extra fuse=99 now suddenly get this =98extra fuse=99 .. do
you think the risk is higher that something goes wrong with the fuse .. the
extra connectors to fit the fuse .. how the fuse is fitted .. how it is pot
entially fitted incorrectly etc
>
> IF .. the only case of =98something bad happened because this wire i
s not fused=99 is the incident that you mention below .. Well
what do you think is more likely to happen .
>
> Something wrong will all the 1000 of planes that now have =98one mor
e part that can go wrong=99 i.e. the extra fuse or a pen or
something else lodging against the bus and shorting to ground ?
>
> On YOUR plane how easy is it for anything to actually lodge in t
he same place ? Suggest looking at best way to prevent something to lodge a
nd short .. than to add something that has never been seen a =98requir
ed=99 before .
>
> I agree that there are very few things that are absolutely right or absolu
tely wrong .. (apart from when at school ;-) then everything was al
ways very black and white ..
>
> The more you can =98remove from the plane=99 the less you have
that can go wrong what you are =98left with=99
well .. you just need to analyze the risk and what happens when it fail .
. can you reduce the risk without adding another risk ..
>
> The following is not related to aircrafts .. but I like to use it to make p
eople thing about risk .. and how to reduce accidents . I have no i
dea if it would work .. but you could argue the case ..
>
> The general thought of car safety is to add more things .. seat belts
=93 airbags =93 crumble zones etc etc.. list goes on and on
>
> The net results is that we tend to drive faster .. We have more accidents .
. maybe less people would die .. but then compared to what ?
>
> Here is my idea for the ultimate car safety device .. You remove seat belt
s and you make it a legal requirement that ALL steering wheels must have a 6
=9D spike mounted in the centre .. pointing straight at your chest .. (
and NO .. you can not wear a bullet proof west J ..)
>
> Now you know if you do not drive very carefully, no hard braking
etc you are not going to last very long are you ? Lookin
g at that 6=9D spike at the steering wheel.
>
> Sure some people will die ..and some people who are driving very carefully
will be hit by someone who does not But will the OVERALL number o
f accidents go up or go down ??
>
> J
>
> Enjoy the weekend ! I
>
> Jan
>
> PS : will not be fitting a fuse on that wire But I will look ve
ry very closely at how it is run ..
>
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelect
ric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Luckey
> Sent: 07 December 2013 01:38
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Unprotected Feeder in Z Drawings
>
> Bob,
>
> Ok, I don't disagree w/ any of the points made but let's play the Devil's A
dvocate/Worst Case Scenario game.
>
> Several years ago in Germany Pilot A was flying an Extra 300 and he looses
his pen. He finishes his flight but forgets to recover the pen. A few day
s later Pilot B takes the plane through several aerobatic maneuvers which di
slodge the pen from where it was hiding and wedge it between the buss on the
back of the breakers and the airframe causing a fault to ground. Smoke in t
he cockpit, panic, denial, etc but eventually Pilot B does the right thing a
nd kills the master, lands plane, changes underwear, semi-happy ending. Goo
d News: engine not electrically-dependent so engine keeps running:)
>
> Bad News: The plane requires some serious re-wire because the feeder melte
d other wires in the loom. Sure, no one died but I certainly don't want to b
e Pilot B! If that feeder had been fused there would have been no smoke and
no damage to wiring.
>
> The point is that simply installing the feeder w/ care & craftsmanship may
not be enough. No matter how well that feeder was installed, it would have
made no difference in this scenario. Unforeseen circumstances could make f
or a bad day for your electrical system. It may be impossible to foresee al
l possible bad scenarios so we want the design of the system to be as fault t
olerant as possible.
>
> Perhaps putting a fuse in the feed line may be a "belt & suspenders" appro
ach but I still don't see a real down side and, like I mentioned earlier, I s
ure don't want to be Pilot B.
>
> BTW Bob (and all) I certainly enjoy being able to explore & discuss these i
ssues in cordial & intelligent ways - whether or not there's a right or wron
g answer, I always learn something.
>
> -Jeff
>
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, December 6, 2013 10:29 AM
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Unprotected Feeder in Z Drawings
>
ls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>
>
> >
> > That particular wire between battery feeders and distribution busses has
existed in perhaps a quarter million production aircraft over the past 80+ y
ears and to my knowledge, has never been fitted with such protection.
> >
> > I find that fascinating...
> >
> > In my relatively simple mind I consider adding a fuse to the feeder
> > in question to have little or no down side and potentially huge
> > upside - preventing an in-flight fire. (not a fan of in-flight fires)
>
> Consider the consequences of opening that fuse
> (or any other event causing that pathway to open)
> in a TC aircraft. You loose EVERYTHING on the panel.
> I.e. single point of failure for all accessories.
>
> Yeah but . . . if the fuse opens, then there was
> something 'wrong'.
>
> Yes, but what? The FEMA process calls for hypothesizing
> every kind of event that can open the fuse and either (1)
> crafting a plan-b or (2) suppressing the risk.
>
>
> > So the downside is that there could be some innocuous event
> > that I am unaware of which pops the proposed big fuse
> > unnecessarily. (sounds a little ridiculous, but carry on...)
> > I can't think of anything like that but I'm not a genius so I
> > thought I'd throw it out to The List to see if its collective
> > wisdom knows about something I may have overlooked.
>
> We have a huge data base from which to conduct that
> assessment not the least of which are big bunches of
> airplanes smaller bunches of qualification studies
> and relatively tiny bunches of incidences that bent
> aluminum and maybe even broke bones.
>
> The NTSB narrative on aircraft accidents is accessible
> here . . .
>
> http://tinyurl.com/pqcdj4h
>
> Do a random search of FINAL REPORTS with your senses
> attuned to causation with roots in human failings
> (either in operation, maintenance or design) and those
> which have causation in some physical failure
> mechanism.
>
> Instances that speak to any electrical will fall into
> the second category for causation and will be a
> minuscule portion of the whole . . . and
> of those, faulting of a wire to ground is even
> smaller.
>
> In 40 years of flying, 1000+ hrs as pilot and
> probably another 2000 as passenger/observer, I've
> observed only two incidences of a popped breaker in
> flight. NEITHER of those cases had root cause in a
> wire faulted to ground - the fault needed to open
> your proposed fuse.
>
> The foundation for moving circuit protection off
> the panel and reverting back to fuses is predicated
> on similar experiences by thousands of other pilots.
> Experiences suggesting that dedicating dollars, panel
> space, weight and fabrication time to a breaker-panel
> is not a good return on investment.
>
> Bottom line is that you're many, many times more
> likely to have a bad day in the cockpit for reasons
> far removed from a hard ground fault on your 6AWG
> bus feeder . . . and THAT because you didn't conduct
> due diligence in its installation.
>
> Same thing applies to torque on your prop bolts,
> replacing a tire that's flopping cordage, taking
> an extra close look at forecasts during icing season,
> and a host of things we do that go to reducing
> risk.
>
> In the case of the bus feeder, the risks are not
> so much to the wire as to the thing the wire touches.
>
> Case in point: C90 on short final experiences disconnect
> of elevator cables. Pilot uses trim commands and power to
> execute go-around, assesses the condition and successfully
> lands the airplane with rudder, trim and power.
>
> Pulling up floorboards in the cockpit revealed a 40A
> protected feeder to the windshield de-ice inverter
> had been mis-positioned against the elevator control
> cable during a maintenance operation. Over what had to
> be many hours of operation, motion of the cable wore
> through the insulation bringing the cable into contact
> with the hot wire. The arcing and sparking was of
> insufficient intensity to come to attention of crew
> in spite of the fact that it was going on virtually
> under their feet.
>
> The copper wire was barely damaged. The breaker never
> popped while the elevator cable eventually eroded through
> and parted. Compare thermal properties of copper versus
> steel . . . this explains why the best steel safes have
> intermediate layers of copper in their construction. It's
> EASY to burn through steel . . . next to impossible on copper.
>
> This narrative explains the high order probability that
> even if you DID get your 6AWG feeder faulted to
> ground, it's most likely to be a soft fault that
> burns a hole in your airplane while doing little
> damage to the wire . . . and certainly far short of
> getting it to smoke and/or open a fuse/breaker.
>
> Adding 'protection' to this pathway doubles the
> number of joints in the pathway and adds nothing
> demonstrable in terms of fault response . . . which
> is why the spam-can builders don't do it either.
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Lista href="http://forum
s.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.mat========
===========
>
>
>
>
>
>
> www.aeroelectric.com
> www.buildersbooks.com
> www.homebuilthelp.com
> www.mypilotstore.com
> www.mrrace.com
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
> www.homebui= * Race Consulting http://www.matronics.com/cont-===
=====================ank" href="
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://wt;
>
> www.aeroelectric.com
> www.buildersbooks.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Unprotected Feeder in Z Drawings |
At 06:28 PM 12/7/2013, you wrote:
>There is an interesting psychological factor that I've heard called
>"risk compensation" that applies here.
Yes . . . and there are documented examples of this
phenomenon that goes back to the beginnings of
recorded history. I remember discussions at Cessna
wayyyyy back when that centered on pilot attitudes
toward risk of icing after they had boots and heated
windshield patches installed on their airplanes.
The ability to mitigate a risk can have a down-side
for making one less considerate of the risk. The
same things are happening in the cockpit when
modern electronics 'replaces' abilities to dead-reckon,
contact-navigate with maps, etc.
It's easy to forget that the only thing standing
between a pilot and a need to resurrect and practice
such skills is a pin pushed back in a connector
or a poorly crimped terminal.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Trim those riplies |
The recent thread on risk assessment has some
fine examples of failure-to-trim. Some of the
replies could use some judicious control
of content.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com> |
| Subject: | Battery Disconnect Switch... |
Greetings,
I'm working on the wiring for a Solitare and it uses a small engine (KFM
Maxi 107) with only a 300W starter. I'm shopping for an appropriate
disconnect switch (in lieu of a master relay) that is capable of
disconnecting the starter current should the starter relay get stuck.
I don't know much about the starter motor other than the 300W listed in
the engine manual (PM? series wound?) but given the 300W it seems like
100A disconnect capable switch should be more than enough when taking
into account battery sag and motor inefficiency. However, if anyone has
a defensible way to come up with a better number, I'd love to hear it.
I'm looking for the physically smallest switch that is up to the task.
Does anyone have an suggestions an appropriate switch? The usual
race-car style battery disconnects are way over-kill and physically
quite large as a result.
All thoughts appreciated,
Steve Stearns
Boulder/Longmont, Colorado
Restoring (since 1/07) and flying again (8/11!): N45FC O235 Longeze
Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs)
Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Disconnect Switch... |
Related question: How much do you have to de-rate the combined current
handling if you wire a DPST with the poles in parallel? I'm assuming if
you have a 30A DPST toggle switch (which I've found. Big, but not as big
as a battery disconnect switch) and you wire the poles in parallel, the
appropriate rating is something less than 60A. Anyone know?
Thanks,
Steve.
On 12/9/2013 9:05 AM, Steve Stearns wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> I'm working on the wiring for a Solitare and it uses a small engine
> (KFM Maxi 107) with only a 300W starter. I'm shopping for an
> appropriate disconnect switch (in lieu of a master relay) that is
> capable of disconnecting the starter current should the starter relay
> get stuck.
>
> I don't know much about the starter motor other than the 300W listed
> in the engine manual (PM? series wound?) but given the 300W it seems
> like 100A disconnect capable switch should be more than enough when
> taking into account battery sag and motor inefficiency. However, if
> anyone has a defensible way to come up with a better number, I'd love
> to hear it. I'm looking for the physically smallest switch that is up
> to the task.
>
> Does anyone have an suggestions an appropriate switch? The usual
> race-car style battery disconnects are way over-kill and physically
> quite large as a result.
>
> All thoughts appreciated,
>
> Steve Stearns
> Boulder/Longmont, Colorado
> Restoring (since 1/07) and flying again (8/11!): N45FC O235 Longeze
> Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs)
> Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Unprotected Feeder in Z Drawings |
At 10:13 AM 12/9/2013, you wrote:
>Bob, I think I understand the exercise, but I don't understand the
>solution in search of a problem. As I learned it the decision tree
>looks like this;
>
>1. Is there a problem?
>2. How big is the problem?
>3. Is there a need to craft a solution to the problem?
>4. What is the payback, in terms of increased safety, of the solution?
>
>In this case, it seems to me, the answer to 1. is no. Where does
>this decision tree go from there?
>If the only instance of a problem is caused by a loose object in the
>cockpit, is not training or even a cockpit placard to "secure all
>loose items before aerobatic flight" a better solution than a feeder line fuse?
The FMEA is not looking for a solution to a problem,
it's a sifting of simple-ideas looking for potential
elevations of risk.
The sifting of anecdotes is also a valuable exercise.
The potential for increased risk from loose, conductive items
was offered. I shared some simple-ideas about the
nature of high-quality joining of wires that gave
pause for considering the integrity of the story.
This is all about the science and forensics . . .
from which decisions might flow that solves
a "problem".
You're right, we've yet to identify a problem.
But the tools being exercised here have broad
applicability and should be practiced whether
or not a problem emerges that begs a solution.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery Disconnect Switch... |
At 10:05 AM 12/9/2013, you wrote:
>
>Greetings,
>
>I'm working on the wiring for a Solitare and it uses a small engine
>(KFM Maxi 107) with only a 300W starter. I'm shopping for an
>appropriate disconnect switch (in lieu of a master relay) that is
>capable of disconnecting the starter current should the starter
>relay get stuck.
>
>I don't know much about the starter motor other than the 300W listed
>in the engine manual (PM? series wound?) but given the 300W it
>seems like 100A disconnect capable switch should be more than enough
>when taking into account battery sag and motor inefficiency.
>However, if anyone has a defensible way to come up with a better
>number, I'd love to hear it.
>I'm looking for the physically smallest switch that is up to the task.
>
>Does anyone have an suggestions an appropriate switch? The usual
>race-car style battery disconnects are way over-kill and physically
>quite large as a result.
>
>All thoughts appreciated,
Hi Steve,
It's been a long time since we've chatted.
Consider this item from Summit Racing
Emacs!
It's their SUM-G1432
It's 'rated' with some pretty sedate currents
as a switch . . . but your switching requirements
are benign also. I'd bet this switch will CARRY
the starter currents just fine.
In any case, the price is right (about $20) and
the size is attractive too. There's also a Moroso
74101 that is about the same size and RATED for
much greater currents. A tad more expensive too
at $45 but almost certain to be suited to
the task. See:
http://tinyurl.com/kj5jwba
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Studies in the fine art of worrying |
| From: | "nuckollsr" <bob.nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
> Just received a heads-up on this new product . . .
>
> Someone has apparently studied the state of current
> arts for joining of wires (and protecting the joint)
> and found the practice lacking.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/kz5c48h
>
> They've even produced a video . . .
>
> http://tinyurl.com/kmdfygt
>
> "When there is no margin for error" says the narrator,
> this product is the right choice. What is not said
> is that the use of the right crimp tool produces a
> gas tight joint that does not improve with the addition
> of solder.
I've been pondering this product and my first impressions . . . I didn't realize
how close I was to the truth when I suggested that the crimp was not expected
to achieve any degree of electrical integrity but simply a way to fixture the
two wires so that the solder-sleeve technology could 'do what it does best'.
A number of readers have commented on the utility of the legacy solder sleeves
for joining two wires . . .
http://tinyurl.com/nvu5zub
It takes three or four hands to hold all the pieces in alignment while heat is
applied to make up the joint.
I even acknowledge this 'short coming' in the article on Poor Man's Solder Sleeves
. . .
http://tinyurl.com/dgg2nb
. . . where I suggest that the wires be fixtured by wrapping a strand or two of
wire around the lap-joint to hold alignment while soldering takes place.
I also recalled an evaluation I made on some low cost, butt splices with heat-shrink
covers. REALLY inexpensive in boxes of 100 at Lowes, Menard's, et. als.
I dug some of those samples out for a second look and recalled that it was nearly
impossible to craft a crimp that would offer a decent pull-test. I.e. no
gas-tight joint was being created. The plastic heat-shrink was so soft that it
was impossible to put sufficient crimp-forces on the splice without making a
mess of the heat-shrink overlay.
So, getting back to the Dell ad for crimp-solder sleeves . . . this now appears
to be an elegant solution to the difficulties cited earlier. When you add solder
on top of the crimped joint, gas-tight electrical integrity is achieved.
Aggressive crimp forces are not necessary, the crimp is only there to fixture the
wires in place to await solder.
The lighter crimp forces don't trash the sleeve so that the finished joint stays
pretty.
If anyone elects to try these, let us know what your impressions are. I note that
the small red butt splice is rated down to 20AWG . . . I did notice that similar
products did not shrink down tight enough to offer insulation support or
hermetic sealing of a joint on 22AWG Tefzel.
Bottom line is that these things may be a better product than first blush and past
experiments suggested . . .
Bob . . .
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415315#415315
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sacha" <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: kitfox /rotax 912 wiring diagram (variation |
on Z-16)
Getting back to your particular study of options,
it would be well to set some design goals. What
battery only endurance would you like to strive for?
[.] my e-bus
operations would shoot for 3-4 hours as a design
goal. Your's may be less.
Four hours sounds like a good number. Missions will be Day VFR only; some
mountainous terrain and open waters.
My plan-b flight bag hardware consists of GPS
receivers (two actually . . . I use them full time),
hand-held transceiver with vor/loc capabilities,
and a flashlight.
I have an iPad which has aeronautical charts. It will be connected to the
USB charger to keep it charged when the alternator is working and will serve
as a backup GPS if the alternator stops working. My hand-held doesn't
have VOR/LOC capabilities, maybe I'll pick one of those up next time I'm in
the US (its' cheaper there).
Something you can do in your airplane
that I didn't get with a TC rental is connection
for your hand-held to the external antenna.
That's definitely something I'm interested in; is there a good way to do it
without installing a separate antenna?
What passes for a "b-lead" on the PM/R-R
system is that wire that runs from OUTPUT
terminal of the R-R, through the control
relay and to the system. Since it ties
directly to a battery-fed, fat-wire it's
a good idea to protect it at some level
well above the output capability of the
alternator. 30A fuse is a good choice.
OK, I'll do that.
I incorporated them following the suggestions on the Infinity Grip order
form ( http://www.infinityaerospace.com/gripwire.pdf
<http://www.infinityaerospace.com/gripwire.pdf> ) and against the better
judgment of my expert friend who helped me with the wiring. I thought it
might be a good idea to have them handy in case of an engine failure in
order to attempt a restart. But in hindsight, it was maybe not such a great
idea. There is also the potential, any time the master is on on the ground,
to accidentally hit the starter button and swing the prop.
The more I think about it, the more I
dislike putting all those functions on
the stick. Non-standard "conveniences" can
translate into un-intended consequences.
Further, the likelihood that a start-button on
the stick will ever be critical to saving
the day is exceedingly low if not zero.
If the engine quits at altitude, you've
got plenty of time to manage the situation
with the legacy suite of controls. If you're
so low that mere seconds count, then fiddling
with the engine is a distraction from the
prime directive of the day . . . endeavor
to walk away.
Yup, makes sense.
In a TC aircraft you will find some combination
of following buttons on the wheel or stick.
Trim: UP, DN, LT, RT
Push to Transmit
Push to Intercom
and MAYBE . . .
Master Disconnect that removes power to all motors
that drive flight surfaces.
Inadvertent operation of any of theses switches
does not create a hazard to sheet metal or
bones . . . nor do they depart from legacy
cockpit behaviors that are the stock and trade
of most pilots.
We still need a list of electro-whizzies in
your airplane that use power . . . and
partitioning of scenarios for when they are
expected to be in service.
I've revised my Load Analysis (see attached excel/pdf), and it indicates
that with a 24Ah Batt at 70% capacity, I should get 4 hours electrical
endurance.
Sacha
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jay Hyde" <jay(at)horriblehyde.com> |
| Subject: | Strange days in South Africa |
This is indeed off the list subject, but I thought that I would share with
you a little bit of what has been a momentous day in South Africa, and for
some indeed, in the world. Today over 100 of the worlds government leaders
were not 20km from my house and we all, throughout the nation, and on
African soil, paid tribute to "one of the greatest lights of our time"-
Madiba, one of the very few African leaders who commands my respect and
admiration. He was indeed a great man and his dying has reminded us of how
much we owe him, and how close we came to the brink of anarchy in this
country.
Besides today being a proud citizen of an infant democracy, and part of a
nation that has inspired the world, I got to within 30 metres of President
Barack Obama, another man I respect and admire. Admittedly, he was
travelling on the opposite side of the highway and we were both going fast.
I saw the cavalcade coming down the highway after Mandela's memorial service
and realised that it was Obama when I saw the long limo and the US flags. I
thought that he gave a really good speech (as did many South Africans) where
he did not shirk from saying hard things, but also said them in a way that
should have humbled the people they were directed at.
And I loved it that the crowd (being a very demographically representative
crowd for SA) booed our corrupt, criminal moron of a president- in front of
the world. We may make it after all..
Well, its been quite a day here and I bid thee adieu from a quietly settling
continent, world citizens.
Good speed Tata Madiba..
Johannesburg Jay
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
HH Enterprises
* Aircraft assembly, repair, wiring and avionics
* Flight instruction
* General and Electrical Engineering services
(NHD Elec Eng, BTech Elec Eng, GDE ELec Eng)
* Great dinner parties and conversation
* General adventuring, climbing, kayaking and living
Blog: <http://www.rawhyde.wordpress.com/> www.rawhyde.wordpress.com
Cel: 083 300 8675
Email: jay(at)horriblehyde.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Strange days in South Africa |
On 12/10/2013 1:41 PM, Jay Hyde wrote:
>
> This is indeed off the list subject, but I thought that I would share
> with you a little bit of what has been a momentous day in South
> Africa, and for some indeed, in the world. Today over 100 of the
> worlds government leaders were not 20km from my house and we all,
> throughout the nation, and on African soil, paid tribute to "one of
> the greatest lights of our time"- Madiba, one of the very few African
> leaders who commands my respect and admiration. He was indeed a great
> man and his dying has reminded us of how much we owe him, and how
> close we came to the brink of anarchy in this country.
>
> Besides today being a proud citizen of an infant democracy, and part
> of a nation that has inspired the world, I got to within 30 metres of
> President Barack Obama, another man I respect and admire. Admittedly,
> he was travelling on the opposite side of the highway and we were both
> going fast. I saw the cavalcade coming down the highway after
> Mandela's memorial service and realised that it was Obama when I saw
> the long limo and the US flags. I thought that he gave a really good
> speech (as did many South Africans) where he did not shirk from saying
> hard things, but also said them in a way that should have humbled the
> people they were directed at.
>
> And I loved it that the crowd (being a very demographically
> representative crowd for SA) booed our corrupt, criminal moron of a
> president- in front of the world. We may make it after all..
>
> Well, its been quite a day here and I bid thee adieu from a quietly
> settling continent, world citizens.
>
> Good speed Tata Madiba..
>
> Johannesburg Jay
>
Thanks, Jay. It's always unfortunate when the good pass from us, but
perhaps today's events will inspire all of us to move forward together,
instead of pushing against one another. After all, most of us have the
same goals for ourselves and our families; we just need to find ways to
get there that we can agree on.
Charlie
(thankful that Matt allows *all* types of discussion on his lists, as
long as they are civil)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Robinson <jbr79r(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Strange days in South Africa |
Well put Roger=0A=0A=0A-=0AJames Robinson=0AGlasair lll N79R=0ASpanish F
ork UT U77=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Tuesday, December 10, 2013 5:11 PM, Roger & Jean
wrote:=0A =0A =0A-President =0ABarack Obam
a, another man I respect and admire. -Admittedly, he was =0Atravelling on
the opposite side of the highway and we were both going =0Afast.- I saw
the cavalcade coming down the highway after Mandela's memorial =0Aservice a
nd realised that it was Obama when I saw the long limo and the US =0Aflags.
- I thought that he gave a really good speech (as did many South =0AAfric
ans) where he did not shirk from saying hard things, but also said them in
=0Aa way that should have humbled the people they were directed =0Aat.=0A
-=0A>>I do have to say that I hope that the democracy in South Africa su
rvives and prospers.=0A>>-=0A>>I , however strongly disagree with you on
your perception of Barack Obama!- The speech he gave at the Mandela Mem
orial was all about Obama not Mandela, as it should have been. Unless our
Congress stops him he will have destroyed our great and wonderful country
by the end of his second term in office.=0A>>-=0A>>You had your say, I c
ountered it, now lets get back to airplane electrics.=0A>>-=0A>>Roger=0A>
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joe Dubner <jdubner(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Whelan capacitor substitute |
Does anyone have firsthand experience replacing the Whelan 51-3361401-42
capacitor assembly in a strobe power supply? Specifically, can you give me a
DigiKey, Mouser, Allied, etc. part number for a suitable photo flash capacitor
substitute based on firsthand experience?
The Whelan parts (and complete assemblies) are crazy-expensive. It's enough to
make me change out the entire system to LEDs :-( But I'd really rather just
repair the power supply and keep on flying.
Thanks,
Joe
Independence, OR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Whelan capacitor substitute |
At 01:54 PM 12/11/2013, you wrote:
>
>Does anyone have firsthand experience replacing the Whelan
>51-3361401-42 capacitor assembly in a strobe power
>supply? Specifically, can you give me a DigiKey, Mouser, Allied,
>etc. part number for a suitable photo flash capacitor substitute
>based on firsthand experience?
>
>The Whelan parts (and complete assemblies) are
>crazy-expensive. It's enough to make me change out the entire
>system to LEDs :-( But I'd really rather just repair the power
>supply and keep on flying.
Consider patching "non flash rated" capacitors
in. The worst that happens is that they don't
last as long as the original parts. But as long
as you can do the work yourself, the price differences
might make the shorter service life an attractive
alternative.
Can you read capacity and voltage values off
the parts?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joe Dubner <jdubner(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Whelan capacitor substitute |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote, On 12/11/2013 15:58:
>
>
> Consider patching "non flash rated" capacitors
> in. The worst that happens is that they don't
> last as long as the original parts. But as long
> as you can do the work yourself, the price differences
> might make the shorter service life an attractive
> alternative.
>
> Can you read capacity and voltage values off
> the parts?
There are no markings other than a "Whelen" brand name and part number. But a
web site selling replacement parts gave me a tip when it called them 400uF at
360WVDC. There are two of them in series and I measured 230VDC across each so
that 360 WVDC rating seems reasonable.
I "patched" in a couple of junkbox 470uF/450WVDC capacitors. Alas, the power
supply still does not work. Upon close examination I now see some charred
components and a swelled filter capacitor in the low voltage section. Rather
than make the huge effort to reverse engineer and fix it, I think I'll buy a new
Nova power supply for under $100 and move on.
Thanks for the idea, Bob. I'm attaching a picture of the HV capacitors if for
no other reason than to to satisfy peoples' curiosity.
Best,
Joe
Independence, OR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Whelan capacitor substitute |
>
>
>I "patched" in a couple of junkbox 470uF/450WVDC capacitors. Alas,
>the power supply still does not work. Upon close examination I now
>see some charred components and a swelled filter capacitor in the
>low voltage section. Rather than make the huge effort to reverse
>engineer and fix it, I think I'll buy a new Nova power supply for
>under $100 and move on.
>
>Thanks for the idea, Bob. I'm attaching a picture of the HV
>capacitors if for no other reason than to to satisfy peoples' curiosity.
Under the circumstances, probably the most economical
solution. If you have no plans for the carcass I'd
like to have it. I'd pop for the packaging/postage.
I've not had an opportunity to peer into the inner
workings of this product for many moons.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Reynolds <richardreynolds(at)cox.net> |
Bob,
Application, RC model airplane, receiver-servos, 6V - 2100 mAh NiMH
battery, 150 mA idle, 6A max intermittent.
The battery is connected to the receiver-servos throughout an off-on
switch (SPDT).
Which switch is more reliable, mini toggle or a mini slide?
For power (6A) (versus data), which contacts are more reliable, gold or
silver? Both have a contact resistance of about 10 mOhms.
Is any brand more reliable?
A bad switch in flight will cause a bay day on the ground.
Richard Reynolds
B-47E 1/12 Scale Model Project
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switches Redux |
Richard,=0A=0AIt's been my experience that the slider type switch is more r
eliable for R/C applications because it seems to be more resistant to high-
frequency vibrations common in R/C aircraft.=0A=0AI asked the same question
and went thru some analysis back in the 90's for some of my giant scale ae
robatic ships and the consensus at that time was sliders were better for th
is application.- I think that's why all radio manufacturers supply their
systems w/ sliders.- I don't think that I've ever seen an after-market sw
itch harness that was anything other than a slider.=0A=0A-Jeff=0A=0A=0A=0A_
_______________________________=0A From: Richard Reynolds <richardreynolds@
cox.net>=0ATo: AeroElectric AeroElectric
=0ASent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:03 AM=0ASubject: AeroElectric-List:
Switches Redux=0A =0A=0A=0ABob,=0A=0AApplication, RC model airplane, recei
ver-servos, 6V - 2100 mAh NiMH battery, 150 mA idle, 6A max intermittent.
=0A=0AThe battery is connected to the receiver-servos throughout an off-on
switch (SPDT).=0A=0AWhich switch is more reliable, mini toggle or a mini sl
ide?-=0A=0AFor power (6A) (versus data), which contacts are more reliable
, gold or silver?-Both have a contact resistance of about 10 mOhms.=0A=0A
Is any brand more reliable?=0A=0AA bad switch in flight will cause a bay da
y on the ground.=0A=0ARichard Reynolds=0AB-47E 1/12 Scale Model Project
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Switches Redux |
At 01:03 PM 12/12/2013, you wrote:
Bob,
Application, RC model airplane, receiver-servos,
6V - 2100 mAh NiMH battery, 150 mA idle, 6A max intermittent.
The battery is connected to the receiver-servos throughout
an off-on switch (SPDT).
Which switch is more reliable, mini toggle or a mini slide?
For power (6A) (versus data), which contacts are more reliable,
gold or silver? Both have a contact resistance of about 10 mOhms.
Is any brand more reliable?
Richard,
Are you aware of modelers who have lost an
airplane due to failure of a receiver power
source? In the pyramid of design requirements,
what is the weakest link in your system wherein
a failure becomes catastrophic?
If you've identified the switch as a high-order
concern, then 'reliability' of any mechanical
device is probably driven more by environmental
concerns than electrical ratings. What kinds
of contaminants might get into the switch and
degrade performance. Is vibration an issue?
Gold contacts insure performance for contacts
that need to work at very low current levels . . .
levels too low to burn away contaminants on
silver-cad contacts by virtue of arcing that
occurs in normal operation.
The silver-cad contacts are probably better
suited to your task. If you want the ultimate
in reliability, perhaps all solid state offers
a solution. A high side switch biased to an
ON-state with a Hall-effect switch. The Hall
being magnetically excited by a "key" inserted
to position a magnet.
The 'works' for this switch would mount on an
ECB about 1/2" x 3/4". It would take some mechanical
fiddly-diddly to mount and integrate with
the 'key'.
Depending on the bounds of your worry and
experiences of others, there's a constellation
of approaches. A toggle is probably positionally
more secure than a slide and is probably fitted
with real silver-cad contacts as opposed to
un-plated brass innards common to slide switches.
Sorry not to have a definitive response but
I'm sure that there are means for addressing
your worst concerns.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Switches Redux |
At 02:24 PM 12/12/2013, you wrote:
Richard,
It's been my experience that the slider type switch is more reliable
for R/C applications because it seems to be more resistant to
high-frequency vibrations common in R/C aircraft.
I asked the same question and went thru some analysis back in the
90's for some of my giant scale aerobatic ships and the consensus at
that time was sliders were better for this application. I think
that's why all radio manufacturers supply their systems w/
sliders. I don't think that I've ever seen an after-market switch
harness that was anything other than a slider.
-Jeff
It would be interesting to know the physics
behind any assertions for superior vibration
resistance in a slide switch. It kinda argues
with what we know about the construction of
the two technologies.
The moving contact in a slider is generally
forced against stationary contacts by a
compression spring centered on the moving
contact. This means that vibration normal
to the plane of the stationary contacts
would work on the center of gravity for the
moving contact directly against the spring
pressure. It follows that when acceleration
exceeds slider mass x force . . . Sir Isaac's
Second law . . . discontinuities in the switch
can be expected.
In a toggle switch, the moving contact is a
"teeter-totter" who's cg is located on the
pivot of the mechanism. A spring presses the
teeter-totter down against a stationary contact
to one or the other side of the pivot to
effect the switching behavior.
Acceleration of the switch assembly normal
to the plane of the stationary contacts once
again acts on the c.g. of the moving contact
which is located at the center . . . and balanced
by equal masses on both sides of the pivot.
The switch actuator spring adds a force on
the 'closed' side of the switch, a force which,
by virtue of that balance, is not opposed by
the forces of acceleration.
See http://tinyurl.com/noo8odx
I'm having trouble visualizing how a toggle
could be more prone to vibration induced
disconnect. You have to get into mil-spec
switches before the manufacturer's even offer
much in the way of vibration data. The few
switches I found with vibration ratings on
their data sheets only spoke to effect of
less than 100Hz . . .
I'm wondering what is meant by 'high frequency'
vibration characteristic of model airplanes.
It's true that slide switches have been
VERY popular with the R/C crowd . . . that's
the only style of switch I observed on the
rudder-only models of my youth. But then,
that was long before the miniature toggle switch
even came along.
I'm not perceiving any foundation in physics
for giving points to slide switches in the
vibration game. I've yet to find any manufacturer's
data that offers a comparison of vibration
effects beyond that which I've hypothesized
above.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Switches Redux |
oops!!!! When Acceleration exceeds spring force/slider mass
. . . Sir Isaac's Second law . . . discontinuities in
the switch can be expected . . . sorry Sir Isaac!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switches Redux |
I dunno Bob, it's just the way they've done it for the past 40+ years. =0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.co
m =0ASent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:31 PM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-
ert L. Nuckolls, III" =0A=0AAt 02:24 PM 12/1
2/2013, you wrote:=0ARichard,=0A=0AIt's been my experience that the slider
type switch is more reliable for R/C applications because it seems to be mo
re resistant to high-frequency vibrations common in R/C aircraft.=0A=0AI as
ked the same question and went thru some analysis back in the 90's for some
of my giant scale aerobatic ships and the consensus at that time was slide
rs were better for this application.- I think that's why all radio manufa
cturers supply their systems w/ sliders.- I don't think that I've ever se
en an after-market switch harness that was anything other than a slider.=0A
=0A-Jeff=0A=0A- It would be interesting to know the physics=0A- behin
d any assertions for superior vibration=0A- resistance in a slide switch
. It kinda argues=0A- with what we know about the construction of=0A-
the two technologies.=0A=0A- The moving contact in a slider is generall
y=0A- forced against stationary contacts by a=0A- compression spring
centered on the moving=0A- contact. This means that vibration normal=0A
- to the plane of the stationary contacts=0A- would work on the cente
r of gravity for the=0A- moving contact directly against the spring=0A
- pressure. It follows that when acceleration=0A- exceeds slider mass
x force . . . Sir Isaac's=0A- Second law . . . discontinuities in the s
witch=0A- can be expected.=0A=0A- In a toggle switch, the moving cont
act is a=0A- "teeter-totter" who's cg is located on the=0A- pivot of
the mechanism. A spring presses the=0A- teeter-totter down against a sta
tionary contact=0A- to one or the other side of the pivot to=0A- effe
ct the switching behavior.=0A=0A- Acceleration of the switch assembly no
rmal=0A- to the plane of the stationary contacts once=0A- again acts
on the c.g. of the moving contact=0A- which is located at the center . .
. and balanced=0A- by equal masses on both sides of the pivot.=0A- T
he switch actuator spring adds a force on=0A- the 'closed' side of the s
witch, a force which,=0A- by virtue of that balance, is not opposed by
=0A- the forces of acceleration.=0A=0A- See http://tinyurl.com/noo8od
x=0A=0A- I'm having trouble visualizing how a toggle=0A- could be mor
e prone to vibration induced=0A- disconnect. You have to get into mil-sp
ec=0A- switches before the manufacturer's even offer=0A- much in the
way of vibration data. The few=0A- switches I found with vibration ratin
gs on=0A- their data sheets only spoke to effect of=0A- less than 100
Hz . . .=0A=0A- I'm wondering what is meant by 'high frequency'=0A- v
ibration characteristic of model airplanes.=0A- It's true that slide swi
tches have been=0A- VERY popular with the R/C crowd . . . that's=0A-
the only style of switch I observed on the=0A- rudder-only models of my
youth. But then,=0A- that was long before the miniature toggle switch=0A
- even came along.=0A=0A- I'm not perceiving any foundation in physic
s=0A- for giving points to slide switches in the=0A- vibration game.
I've yet to find any manufacturer's=0A- data that offers a comparison of
vibration=0A- effects beyond that which I've hypothesized=0A- above.
=========================0A
=====================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Speaking of physics . . . |
Last week I had occasion to refer a colleague to
a series of videos available from MIT on their
website at http://ocw.mit.edu
In particular the lectures offered by Walter Lewin
on various topics in physics. Highly recommended
for anyone interested in a refresher . . . or grandparents
hoping to plant the seeds of interests in
grandchildren.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of physics . . . |
| From: | Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Bob
Any particular one which is relevant to aero electrics? There are 567 hits for
Walter Lewin lectures on the site...
Sacha
On Dec 12, 2013, at 23:45, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
wrote:
>
> Last week I had occasion to refer a colleague to
> a series of videos available from MIT on their
> website at http://ocw.mit.edu
>
> In particular the lectures offered by Walter Lewin
> on various topics in physics. Highly recommended
> for anyone interested in a refresher . . . or grandparents
> hoping to plant the seeds of interests in
> grandchildren.
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of physics . . . |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
Bob, et al.--- Walter Lewin is great stuff!
_____________________
I posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:31 am
Off Topic:
When you think you understand electronics, see Google: " You Tube
M I T Walter Lewin Complete Breakdown of Intuition Part 1 "
If you are really brave see Part 2.
_____________________
Also, any You Tube re: Richard Feynman.
Merry Xmas
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415494#415494
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of physics . . . |
At 07:52 AM 12/13/2013, you wrote:
>
>Bob, et al.--- Walter Lewin is great stuff!
Yeah, he's one of my heros.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of physics . . . |
At 05:26 PM 12/12/2013, you wrote:
>
>Hi Bob
>Any particular one which is relevant to aero electrics? There are
>567 hits for Walter Lewin lectures on the site...
>Sacha
ALL are relevant.
EVERY discipline reduced to the most fundamental
components will invariably illustrate principals
of motion, force, friction, dissipation of energy,
radiation, behaviors of materials, etc. etc.
I invoked a sampling of these ideas in our consideration
of risk for "loose items in cockpit" causing near
catastrophic events and a consideration of likelihood
that a slide switch is more resistant to vibration than
a toggle switch.
A great deal of what passes for considered decision
making is based on conclusions unsupported by the simple-ideas
in physics. Much of what I did during my last years
at Beech was to discover the constellation of operating
simple-ideas responsible for failure to perform . . .
troubleshooting down to the lowest common denominator.
A solid grounding in physics is the cornerstone
of virtually every other discipline . . . the whole
universe and every system within runs on simple-ideas
in physics.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: IVO Prop current limiter |
At 03:51 AM 12/13/2013, you wrote:
>Hi Bob,
>
>I stumbled on the IVO Prop current limiter schema searching... an
>IVO Prop protection device to avoid problems with it :-)
>
>I have an ICP Savannah VG running a 912 wit an IVO ultralight 3blade IFA.
>
>Looking on the forum I saw a lot of message, some very positive,
>some a little less. At the end I did not understood what is the
>current status of the project.
I did that design a number of years ago and several
List members endeavored to build it . . . as I recall,
their results met design goals.
If anyone has encountered difficulties, I wasn't aware
of it but I'd sure like to be.
>Is it OK? Any (possible) and unresolved issue? (I can build it by
>myself, no problem for this).
>
>Would you be so kind to update ma about this?
I considered making it a product. In fact, I think I
have some proof-of concept ECBs around here somewhere.
The thing would fit into this package except it
wouldn't be labeled 'solid state relay'
http://tinyurl.com/kw3h453
>Best regards and... Merry Christmas! :-)
Thank you sir . . . you too. I've echoed this to
the List and with an invitation to anyone with good
or bad experiences with this circuit
http://tinyurl.com/pf5w9s2
to jump in and update us on their findings. If the
circuit needs modification, that can be accomplished.
As I said, I think I do have some boards to assemble
one . . . if the project looks like it should move
forward, perhaps your airplane could be the 'beta
test' environment.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of physics . . . |
Bob,=0A=0AYour cursory and simplified analysis of the dynamics of switch vi
bration neither has sufficient data nor analysis to draw any conclusions. (
I don't think you intended it to) Therefore it neither confirms nor refutes
the suggestion that sliders are used because they handle vibration better
in RC applications.=0A=0ALet's talk about "..loose items ..":=0A=0AI know y
ou are not saying that the idea of "..loose items in the cockpit.." is impo
ssible. In other words, I believe we agree that it is possible for foreign
objects to get stuck in bad places.- However, you seem to be rather dismi
ssive of the ideas I have put forward.-- The crux of your argument seem
s to be based on the likelihood of a particular bad event.=0A=0ATherein lie
s the problem - how to derive the likelihood. I suppose one could =0Ascour
NTSB accident records to search for incidents of bad =0Athing X happening.
- (But that requires a larger =0Aamount of effort than most of us are wil
ling or able to put forth. There are other considerations in doing research
of this nature - suffice it to say it is not a trivial task)=0A=0ATherefor
e, in the absence of a probability for an event that is perhaps unlikely bu
t not impossible, I offer the following idea: - - - - - - =0A
=0AIf there is a simple, easy, & cheap prophylactic action that can be take
n to prevent something bad, even if the bad thing is statistically remote (
or the statistics are unknown), then why not take that action?=0A=0AThe "wh
y not" question is important because even seemingly benign solutions have p
ros & cons and we certainly don't want the cure to be worse than the diseas
e.- I ask that "why not..." question a lot and lately have been getting l
ess than satisfying answers.=0A=0A-Jeff=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________________
___________=0A From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.c
om>=0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Friday, December 13, 201
3 10:12 AM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Speaking of physics . . .=0A
uckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>=0A=0AAt 05:26 PM 12/12/2013, you wrote:=0A> -
i Bob=0A> Any particular one which is relevant to aero electrics? There are
567 hits for Walter Lewin lectures on the site...=0A> Sacha=0A=0A- ALL
are relevant.=0A=0A- EVERY discipline reduced to the most fundamental=0A
- components will invariably illustrate principals=0A- of motion, for
ce, friction, dissipation of energy,=0A- radiation, behaviors of materia
ls, etc. etc.=0A=0A- I invoked a sampling of these ideas in our consider
ation=0A- of risk for "loose items in cockpit" causing near=0A- catas
trophic events and a consideration of likelihood=0A- that a slide switch
is more resistant to vibration than=0A- a toggle switch.=0A=0A- A gr
eat deal of what passes for considered decision=0A- making is based on c
onclusions unsupported by the simple-ideas=0A- in physics. Much of what
I did during my last years=0A- at Beech was to discover the constellatio
n of operating=0A- simple-ideas responsible for failure to perform . . .
=0A- troubleshooting down to the lowest common denominator.=0A=0A- A
solid grounding in physics is the cornerstone=0A- of virtually every oth
er discipline . . . the whole=0A- universe and every system within runs
=====
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> |
Hello Bob, I've just recently started flying my Z13/8 Bearhawk, which has a steel
tube fuselage and aluminum wings. I'm getting a little bit of noise in the
headsets from the Aeroflash strobes. I wonder if you or the other list readers
can help me narrow down where to look for the source. The system that I installed
uses a power pack in each wingtip. The part of the strobe that flashes
is in a combination unit that has incandescent position lights, both red/green
and aft-facing white. I've replaced the incandescent bulbs with LEDs. I routed
power to the strobes from the main bus, via an unshielded conductor, in
a bundle out to each wingtip. They are grounded to the airframe locally at the
tips. My audio and mic jacks are isolated from the aircraft ground and in shielded
cables. The noise that I get is the same regardless of the volume position
on the Flightcom 403 intercom or the Garmin 430. It sounds a little bit
like a capacitor charging, sort of a "twe-tweeee" of increasing pitch that comes
with every flash. It's faint enough that I can hear it on the ground and
while taxiing, but once I get up to cruise speed and power it is drowned out.
As such, it's not the end of the world if I can't get rid of it, but I thought
it was worth looking into. Thanks in advance for any tips you might have.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Strobe Noise |
Jared
I had to install a $4. filter from a automotive audio supplier in line
with the power to the strobes for the same issue. I can still faintly
hear it with the engine off which confirms they are flashing.
Ken
On 13/12/2013 9:36 PM, Jared Yates wrote:
>
> Hello Bob, I've just recently started flying my Z13/8 Bearhawk, which has a steel
tube fuselage and aluminum wings. I'm getting a little bit of noise in the
headsets from the Aeroflash strobes. I wonder if you or the other list readers
can help me narrow down where to look for the source. The system that I
installed uses a power pack in each wingtip. The part of the strobe that flashes
is in a combination unit that has incandescent position lights, both red/green
and aft-facing white. I've replaced the incandescent bulbs with LEDs. I
routed power to the strobes from the main bus, via an unshielded conductor, in
a bundle out to each wingtip. They are grounded to the airframe locally at
the tips. My audio and mic jacks are isolated from the aircraft ground and in
shielded cables. The noise that I get is the same regardless of the volume position
on the Flightcom 403 intercom or the Garmin 430. It sounds a little bit
like a capacitor charging, sort of a "twe-tweeee"!
o!
> f increasing pitch that comes with every flash. It's faint enough that I can
hear it on the ground and while taxiing, but once I get up to cruise speed
and power it is drowned out. As such, it's not the end of the world if I can't
get rid of it, but I thought it was worth looking into. Thanks in advance for
any tips you might have.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Strobe Noise |
| From: | Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com> |
Thanks Ken, do you remember anything about how you selected the filter,
such as what it would be used in or where you got it from?
On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 7:18 AM, Ken wrote:
>
> Jared
> I had to install a $4. filter from a automotive audio supplier in line
> with the power to the strobes for the same issue. I can still faintly hear
> it with the engine off which confirms they are flashing.
> Ken
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | IVO Prop Current Limiter |
| From: | Dennis & Anne Glaeser <glaesers(at)wideopenwest.com> |
I was the requester for that design.
I built it, tested it, and used it for the last few years. Works perfectly!
I recently upgraded to an MT prop, so I sold the IVO along with the current limiter.
I don't know if that plane is flying yet.
Dennis Glaeser
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Strobe Noise |
Jared
The filter was intended for car radios. A black plastic cylinder with 3
leads - IN, OUT, Ground. There are several on ebay for around $6. but I
suspect they are easy to find at automotive suppliers especially if they
do radio installs. Here's one:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/12V-NOISE-FILTER-HUM-KILLER-ENGINE-SUPRESSOR-POWER-WIRE-/260741326774?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb564e7b6&vxp=mtr
Ken
On 14/12/2013 8:44 AM, Jared Yates wrote:
> Thanks Ken, do you remember anything about how you selected the filter,
> such as what it would be used in or where you got it from?
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 7:18 AM, Ken > wrote:
>
> >
>
> Jared
> I had to install a $4. filter from a automotive audio supplier in
> line with the power to the strobes for the same issue. I can still
> faintly hear it with the engine off which confirms they are flashing.
> Ken
>
> *
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dr. Andrew Elliott" <a.s.elliott(at)cox.net> |
I sometimes recall, from my long-ago days at MIT, the tongue-in-cheek
last question on the final exam from 8.03 ' third semester Physics:
Given:
f=ma
e=mc=B2
Maxwell=92s equations
Derive:
Everything
Andy
------------------------
Andy Elliott, CL:480-695-9568
N601GE/Z601XL/TD/Corvair
540 hrs since 11/08
<http://servi-aero.com/n601ge/4sale/> Web Site Link
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of physics . . . |
At 06:17 PM 12/13/2013, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
>Your cursory and simplified analysis of the dynamics of switch
>vibration neither has sufficient data nor analysis to draw any
>conclusions. (I don't think you intended it to) Therefore it neither
>confirms nor refutes the suggestion that sliders are used because
>they handle vibration better in RC applications.
Okay, what is the counter-argument for
the effects of vibration in the system of levers
and masses? What are the forcing functions that
would separate a pair of toggle switch contacts
undergoing vibration?
If I am in error, nobody is more interested in
knowing than me . . . Prof Lewin once offered the
idea that bad teaching is a form of criminal behavior.
It's a matter of personal satisfaction and moral
imperative that a teacher strive for the best.
>Let's talk about "..loose items ..":
>
>I know you are not saying that the idea of "..loose items in the
>cockpit.." is impossible. In other words, I believe we agree that it
>is possible for foreign objects to get stuck in bad
>places. However, you seem to be rather dismissive of the ideas I
>have put forward. The crux of your argument seems to be based on
>the likelihood of a particular bad event.
Not at all. The outcome of damage to multiple
wires by burning due to electrical fault was
founded on the notion that some loose, conductive
item could become lodged between source and
ground with conductivity that would burn
a bus feeder. All the metal pens I've seen
were light, thin walled and poor conductors.
Walking up to a bus bar with malicious intent
armed with a metallic writing instrument is like
bringing a cork gun to a gunfight. Yes, there's
going to be sparks, smoke, heat and probably burned
fingers with little or no damage to the bus
or its feeder.
The fact that such feeders tend to "eat holes"
in their antagonists with little or no risk to
the feeder or functions that it energizes is the
foundation for policies articulated in the FARS
and decades-old industry practice for over a
quarter million light aircraft produced in this
country alone.
>Therein lies the problem - how to derive the likelihood. I suppose
>one could scour NTSB accident records to search for incidents of bad
>thing X happening. (But that requires a larger amount of effort
>than most of us are willing or able to put forth. There are other
>considerations in doing research of this nature - suffice it to say
>it is not a trivial task)
. . . and based on my experience, analysis and observations
I'll suggest that you will not find such an event in
the NTSB records . . .
I have oft repeated the observation that only an
exceedingly small number of accidents have electrical
systems malfunctions as proximate cause . . . and
of those cases, another small fraction are based
on failure to perform to design goals. When electrics
fail to perform, it nearly always finds foundation in human
errors of installation or maintenance.
>Therefore, in the absence of a probability for an event that is
>perhaps unlikely but not impossible, I offer the following idea:
>
>If there is a simple, easy, & cheap prophylactic action that can be
>taken to prevent something bad, even if the bad thing is
>statistically remote (or the statistics are unknown), then why not
>take that action?
As you wish . . . but how far do you carry this
line of reasoning? Would it be a good idea to
build a cage around the prop . . . a guard on a
fuel selector valve to guard against accidentally
kicking it? How about warning lights on the fuel
filler caps to warn of poor sealing (had these
critters siphon gas on an A36 . . . TWICE!)
>The "why not" question is important because even seemingly benign
>solutions have pros & cons and we certainly don't want the cure to
>be worse than the disease. I ask that "why not..." question a lot
>and lately have been getting less than satisfying answers.
I sincerely strive for my answers to be founded
in the simple-ideas of physics and practical
limits for guarding against the unanticipated
based on lessons learned.
The first time I saw this image was probably 35
years ago . . . and rather humorous at the time . .
http://healthyworker.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/osha_cowboy.jpg
It's interesting to contemplate what the "Engineer/
mechanic/pilot after FAA" would be decked out.
Over 35+ years, the work product of those with
profitable careers in worrying-on-our-behalf-for-
the-greater-good have offered a constellation of mandates
to address a host of 'why not?' . . . with little
if any observable change in accident rates or causation
for those accidents.
If you find satisfaction in guarding the bus bars
on your breaker panels or fusing the feeder, please
do so. It would upset nobody that I'm aware of. Your
airplane be fabricated to meet your design goals.
I am sorry to have failed your expectations for receiving
'satisfying answers'. All I can do is offer the best
I know now to do founded on a knowledge-base built on
my teachers, experiences, recipes for success . . .
combined with observations on experiences of others.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com> |
This is pretty funny, Dr. Andy. The most prolific thing I saw in the physics department
at my college was written on one of the rest room stalls: "Is Max Planck's
Constant?"
Henador Titzoff
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 12/14/13, Dr. Andrew Elliott wrote:
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Physics...
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Saturday, December 14, 2013, 1:44 PM
I sometimes
recall, from my long-ago days at MIT, the tongue-in-cheek
last question on the final exam from 8.03 third
semester Physics:
Given:
f=ma
e=mc
Maxwells equations
Derive:
Everything
Andy------------------------Andy Elliott, CL:480-695-9568 N601GE/Z601XL/TD/Corvair540
hrs since 11/08Web Site Link
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Arthur Glaser <artglaser(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | for physics lovers -- physics carols -- not aircraft |
related
http://www.haverford.edu/physics/songs/carols/carols.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of physics . . . |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
For anyone who thought HS or college physics was incomprehensible, and apropos of this group, look at this page: http://amasci.com/wing/airgif2.html
For those who want to experience physics without math, Buy a few copies of "Conceptual
Physics" by Paul Hewitt. It is great to start students off on the right
track. Not too late for Xmas.
There's lots of great stuff on the Internet.
I write on subjects related to physics on "Perihelion Science Fiction". Perihelion
Design is the name of my website. Yes, I named them both...but it's a long
story. I should be driving rivets....
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415608#415608
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of physics . . . |
At 09:25 AM 12/15/2013, you wrote:
>
>For those who want to experience physics without math, Buy a few
>copies of "Conceptual Physics" by Paul Hewitt. It is great to start
>students off on the right track. Not too late for Xmas.
Agreed. I've given away a number of these
books. Highly recommended ESPECIALLY
for grandparents looking for interesting
things to do with grandchildren not
completely distracted/disoriented by
the chaotic input of 'data' in their
daily lives.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of physics . . . |
=0Awhile the grown-ups are talking, can the eight-year-olds go play in the
=========================0A
=====================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com> |
| Subject: | 5 Meter LED String Info |
Friends,
Last month I ordered a 5 meter string of white LEDs ($9.25), a power
pack/dimmer unit ($2.97) and a pack of 4 extra connectors ($6.50) on
Amazon. Needless to say, they shipped from China and they took about 2
1/2 weeks to arrive here. The LED string is supposed to be weatherproof
and it has an adhesive backing with peel-off cover/protector. One end
is provided with red/black pigtails for connection to the power
pack/dimmer:
The string may be cut to length every three LEDs. You can see the
scissor symbols where cutting is permitted. Also available are
connectors to attach to the end of the cut-off section of string to
allow them to be used. I have a pack of those connectors on order but
they have not arrived yet.
The connection to the power pack/dimmer is simple and I connected the
power pack to my power supply for testing. The power pack/dimmer is for
use with 12v-28v DC. I set my power supply to 12v to check it out.
With the power pack/dimmer set to minimum power there was a surprising
output of light with a current draw of 0.1A.
With the dimmer turned to max brightness the light output was impressive
and only 1.5A of current draw.
My initial plans for the string were to backlight the fuel sight gage
which I believe will work quite well. But that will only take about 1 -
1.5 meters of string. I=92m thinking about running the remainder inside
the center tunnel of the Europa for lighting when I=92m working inside
there. I think my biggest problem will be mounting that funky, big
power pack/dimmer in an unobtrusive location.
These LED strings are available in single color red, green or blue sets
as well as white. They are also available in multi-color LED=92s with
programmable power supply to do visually interesting things with the
string. I haven=92t gotten up the courage to tackle the multi-color
string yet. And the prices are very affordable for the tinkerer.
The mind boggles at the potential interior and exterior uses of these
lights!
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 5 Meter LED String Info |
| From: | "chris Sinfield" <chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au> |
I am tinkering with the same idea but will use the smaller dimmer from aircraft
spruce.. Saved money on the lights and will use it to spend on the dimmer.
Cris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415615#415615
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 5 Meter LED String Info |
| From: | Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com> |
Chris,
Which dimmer from ACS? Can you give a link or P/N?
Thanks,
Bob
On Dec 15, 2013, at 2:12 PM, chris Sinfield wrote:
I am tinkering with the same idea but will use the smaller dimmer from aircraft
spruce.. Saved money on the lights and will use it to spend on the dimmer.
Cris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 5 Meter LED String Info |
At 01:46 PM 12/15/2013, you wrote:
>Friends,
>
>Last month I ordered a 5 meter string of white LEDs ($9.25), a power
>pack/dimmer unit ($2.97) and a pack of 4 extra connectors ($6.50) on
>Amazon. Needless to say, they shipped from China and they took
>about 2 1/2 weeks to arrive here. The LED string is supposed to be
>weatherproof and it has an adhesive backing with peel-off
>cover/protector. One end is provided with red/black pigtails for
>connection to the power pack/dimmer:
This is the same class of lighting strip I mentioned
about a year ago. I'm using these for under the cabinet,
over the counter lighting in the kitchen. I'll be using
them for general room illumination in the upgraded
kitchen and a bathroom project.
Eric has a dimmer suited to these lights in airplanes.
http://tinyurl.com/mmuvz7z
His design allows customizing min-max voltage
to accommodate the unique dimming nature of
series-string leds. Your max dim is about 7
volts while max bright is full bore.
I'm planning on putting segments of these strips
in polycarbonate tubing for gee-whiz and general
work light on Dr. Dee and Son Zach's cotton candy
and shaved ice concessions.
These are exceedingly versatile products. The
only shortcoming I've identified so far is the
grade of peel-n-stick adhesive supplied. DOES
NOT stay put with temperature effects outdoors
and in vehicles. Get some 3M mounting tape of
appropriate width and use it to attach these
strips down in a high temperature environment.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sauli Aalto <sauli.aalto(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 5 Meter LED String Info |
Robert Borger skrev 2013-12-15 20:46:
> le the multi-color string yet. And the prices are very affordable for
> the tinkerer.
>
> The mind boggles at the potential interior and exterior uses of these
> lights!
These are very nice things to play with indeed.
The weak point is the cheapy dimmer that is very noisy (electrically) if
you are going to use it in the aircraft.
There are better ways to control these strings.
I am going to make some "ultralight" versions with non-weatherproof and
spray with a plastic film used on circuit boards.
You should try playing with the multicolor and start with a cheap
controller it's no more than three slings together.
My wife loves it! 5 meters in the bathroom and shower with a cheap and
simple controller "making waves" with colors.
You get all from slow ambient-hypno-color-fading to total
alien-disco-flashing!
Cheers from
Sauli
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 5 Meter LED String Info |
This looks similar to the products that I've been getting from superbrightleds.com
(They're located in St. Louis and I typically get the products within two
or three days. )
I'm using a strip in my glareshield with one of Eric's dimmers.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415633#415633
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | depiazza <depiazza(at)iprimus.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: 5 Meter LED String Info |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | 2013 List of Contributors |
Dear Listers,
The 2013 Matronics Email List and Forum Fund Raiser officially ended a couple of
weeks ago and it's time that I published this year's List of Contributors.
It is the people on this list that directly make these Email Lists and Forums
possible! Their generous Contributions keep the servers and Internet connection
up and running!
You can still show your support this year and pick up a great gift at the same
time. The Contribution Web Site is fast, easy, and secure:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
I also want to thank Andy, Bob, Corbin, George, and Jon for their generous support
through the supply of many great gifts this year!! These guys have some excellent
products and I encourage you to visit their respective web sites:
Andy Gold - The Builder's Bookstore - http://www.buildersbooks.com
Bob Nucklolls - AeroElectric - http://www.aeroelectric.com
Corbin Glowacki - My Pilot Store - http://www.mypilotstore.com
George Race - Race Consulting - http://www.mrrace.com
Jon Croke - HomebuiltHELP - http://www.homebuilthelp.com
And finally, I'm proud to present The 2013 Fund Raiser List of Contributors:
http://www.matronics.com/loc/2013.html
Thank you again to everyone that made a Contribution this year!!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List & Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 5 Meter LED String Info |
At 06:46 PM 12/15/2013, you wrote:
>
>>The mind boggles at the potential interior and exterior uses of these lights!
>These are very nice things to play with indeed.
>The weak point is the cheapy dimmer that is very noisy
>(electrically) if you are going to use it in the aircraft.
>There are better ways to control these strings.
Eric's dimmer that I cited earlier is a linear
regulator . . . LM317 based. It's not a noise
generator. If you want to go one step further
up the DIY ladder, you can craft your own dimmer
from parts readily available at RadioShack and
others.
Don't let logistics of acquisition dry
up your creative juices.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sacha" <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Kuntzelman landing taxi recognition LEDs |
Folks,
Does anyone have any experience good or bad with the Kuntzelman LED landing
lights?
http://www.kestrobes.com/beacon.htm#LL1
They are only 3" diameter which makes them perfect for the limited space in
have at the front of the Kitfox. They co$t a bit so it would be nice to
hear if someone has been using them before I buy one.
Sacha
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sauli Aalto <sauli.aalto(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 5 Meter LED String Info |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III skrev 2013-12-16 16:03:
>
>
> At 06:46 PM 12/15/2013, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The mind boggles at the potential interior and exterior uses of
>>> these lights!
>> These are very nice things to play with indeed.
>> The weak point is the cheapy dimmer that is very noisy (electrically)
>> if you are going to use it in the aircraft.
>> There are better ways to control these strings.
>
> Eric's dimmer that I cited earlier is a linear
> regulator . . . LM317 based. It's not a noise
> generator. If you want to go one step further
> up the DIY ladder, you can craft your own dimmer
> from parts readily available at RadioShack and
> others.
>
> Don't let logistics of acquisition dry
> up your creative juices.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
I meant the cheap (almost free.. 1 - 2 $) stuff things. But they are
nice to start playing with.
The LM317 is a very nice analog circuit for LED:s! And one more thing
is LM317 will not have
is that annoying flickering that especially comes with simple switched
circuits.
The best way is to just rig up some stuff and play with it before
putting it into a plane.
>> found a nice small thing on ebay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LM317-DC-In-5-24V-Out-1-5-15V-Volt-Regulator-Converter-/121173879393?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item1c3686aa61
Enjoy!
//// Sauli
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 5 Meter LED String Info |
| From: | Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com> |
Bob,
I have one of Erics dimmers on order. I selected it for the reason you state,
lower noise potential than a PWM dimmer.
Im not quite ready to start crafting electro-goodies myself yet, but would like
to get there once all aircraft have been built and are flying.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (50 hrs).
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On Dec 16, 2013, at 9:03 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
At 06:46 PM 12/15/2013, you wrote:
>
>> The mind boggles at the potential interior and exterior uses of these lights!
> These are very nice things to play with indeed.
> The weak point is the cheapy dimmer that is very noisy (electrically) if you
are going to use it in the aircraft.
> There are better ways to control these strings.
Eric's dimmer that I cited earlier is a linear
regulator . . . LM317 based. It's not a noise
generator. If you want to go one step further
up the DIY ladder, you can craft your own dimmer
from parts readily available at RadioShack and
others.
Don't let logistics of acquisition dry
up your creative juices.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kuntzelman landing taxi recognition LEDs |
| From: | rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us |
Hi Sacha
"They co$t a bit so it would be nice to hear if someone has been
using them before I buy one."
I purchased one and also an AeroSun. Not flying with them yet but did
comment and document performance against several other lights:
http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=30987
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sacha" <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Landing light LEDs - questions about Heat Sink and |
Flasher/Wig-Wag Noise
http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=30987
Thanks Ron for that!
A couple of questions:
Heat sink: you mention it would need 60 sq. inches of heat sink. How did
you come to this number? Does it assume that the sink sits in a free stream
of oncoming air (I'm thinking that my heat sink would end up under the cowl
which may not be the optimal place for it, so it would need to be even
bigger, which would defeat the purpose of choosing the LED in the first
place).
Wig-Wag/Flasher: I'm planning to have just one landing light (no taxi
light) so more than a wig-wag, I really need a flasher of sorts. I'm
considering three alternatives right now (I originally thought of the B&C
SSF-1 wig-wag but doesn't work unless two loads are attached):
- $6.99 An automotive flasher such as
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-3-Pin-CF13-Car-Flasher-Relay-to-Fix-LED-Light-Bli
nk-Flash-/251289748449 which I suspect may be noisy. Does anyone know for
sure? Is there an inexpensive way to cure this?
- $45: Kuntzelman wig-wag controller which is capable of flashing
one or two LEDs.
- $88: Perihelion wig-wag. I understand this is not noisy, but
probably overkill (it apparently can flash two 250W sources, my LED consumes
20W).
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us
Sent: Monday, 16 December, 2013 17:17
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Kuntzelman landing taxi recognition LEDs
Hi Sacha
"They co$t a bit so it would be nice to hear if someone has been using them
before I buy one."
I purchased one and also an AeroSun. Not flying with them yet but did
comment and document performance against several other lights:
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sacha" <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Landing light LEDs - questions about Heat Sink |
and Flasher/Wig-Wag Noise
Just realized that for $55, there is also the open-source AEC9012-1 from
Bob's website which can flash a single LED
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9012/IM9012-700C.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing light LEDs - questions about Heat Sink |
and Flasher/Wig-Wag Noise
| From: | rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us |
Hi Sacha
A couple of questions:
Heat sink: you mention it would need 60 sq. inches of heat sink. How did
you come to this number?
** I spoke to the owner. I forget the exact details now, but I would be
using it as a Taxi LED so it may not be getting much airflow some
times.
** I went with Erics flasher. That said you may be able to find a
automotive LED flasher that could be used. I fooled with one, let it run
for a while and it failed. Very poor quality. If that is your only LED,
you can speak with Dick about his.
I was at the Javitz center this past Sunday (bike show) and saw some
pretty slick LEDs from Denali.:
www.TwistedThrottle.com
The DX is the largest, 10 watts per LED and 10 degree angle and has dual
intensity, 3" square 3.75" long
The D2, kinda slick, it comes with two lenses a 10 degree and 25 degree
10 watts per LED, 2" square and 2.4" long, dual intensity
The baby DM 1.75" round, 2.4" long, 5 watts per LED, comes with
both 10 and 25 degree lens, only 1 intensity
Tell them you were at the bike show, you may still get a deal!
If you only need one LED and decide on the D2, I will buy the second one
from you.
They have a pretty nice integral heat sink.
You can call them and see if they offer a flasher/wig-wag?
Ron Parigoris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing light LEDs - questions about Heat Sink |
and Flasher/Wig-Wag Noise
>
>Wig-Wag/Flasher: I=92m planning to have just one
>landing light (no taxi light) so more than a
>wig-wag, I really need a flasher of sorts. I=92m
>considering three alternatives right now (I
>originally thought of the B&C SSF-1 wig-wag but
>doesn=92t work unless two loads are attached):
>- $6.99 An automotive flasher such as
><http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-3-Pin-CF13-Car-Flasher-Relay-to-Fix-LED-Light-B
link-Flash-/251289748449>http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-3-Pin-CF13-Car-Flasher-R
elay-to-Fix-LED-Light-Blink-Flash-/251289748449
>which I suspect may be noisy. Does anyone know
>for sure? Is there an inexpensive way to cure this?
>- $45: Kuntzelman wig-wag controller
>which is capable of flashing one or two LEDs.
>- $88: Perihelion wig-wag=85 I understand
>this is not noisy, but probably overkill (it
>apparently can flash two 250W sources, my LED consumes 20W).
>
Consider this one too . . .
http://tinyurl.com/ab9l92l
http://tinyurl.com/bos5p5r
http://tinyurl.com/mkssom4
http://tinyurl.com/cgr42l5
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing light LEDs - questions about Heat Sink |
and Flasher/Wig-Wag Noise
| From: | bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
i have used an auto flasher on hid.
bob noffs
On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 3:56 PM, wrote:
> Hi Sacha
>
> A couple of questions:
>
> Heat sink: you mention it would need 60 sq. inches of heat sink. How did
> you come to this number?
>
> ** I spoke to the owner. I forget the exact details now, but I would be
> using it as a Taxi LED so it may not be getting much airflow some times.
>
> ** I went with Erics flasher. That said you may be able to find a
> automotive LED flasher that could be used. I fooled with one, let it run
> for a while and it failed. Very poor quality. If that is your only LED, you
> can speak with Dick about his.
>
> I was at the Javitz center this past Sunday (bike show) and saw some
> pretty slick LEDs from Denali.:
>
> www.TwistedThrottle.com
>
> The DX is the largest, 10 watts per LED and 10 degree angle and has dual
> intensity, 3" square 3.75" long
>
> The D2, kinda slick, it comes with two lenses a 10 degree and 25 degree 10
> watts per LED, 2" square and 2.4" long, dual intensity
>
> The baby DM 1.75" round, 2.4" long, 5 watts per LED, comes with both 10
> and 25 degree lens, only 1 intensity
>
> Tell them you were at the bike show, you may still get a deal!
>
> If you only need one LED and decide on the D2, I will buy the second one
> from you.
>
> They have a pretty nice integral heat sink.
>
> You can call them and see if they offer a flasher/wig-wag?
>
> Ron Parigoris
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sacha" <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Landing light LEDs - questions about Heat Sink |
and Flasher/Wig-Wag Noise
I was at the Javitz center this past Sunday (bike show) and saw some pretty
slick LEDs from Denali.:
www.TwistedThrottle.com
The DX is the largest, 10 watts per LED and 10 degree angle and has dual
intensity, 3" square 3.75" long
The D2, kinda slick, it comes with two lenses a 10 degree and 25 degree 10
watts per LED, 2" square and 2.4" long, dual intensity
Thanks Ron for the info and for your kind offer; the D2 (it's actually round
not square) is a good size for me, probably easier to mount and cheaper than
the Kuntzelmans; I'm actually tempted to get two; one with a 10 deg lense
and one with a 25 deg.
Sacha
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing light LEDs - questions about Heat Sink |
and Flasher/Wig-Wag Noise
| From: | bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
i am planning to use ztron. specs ae competitive and $500 for landing light
and strobes compared to aeroled at several times that.
bob noffs
On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 2:28 AM, Sacha wrote:
> I was at the Javitz center this past Sunday (bike show) and saw some
> pretty slick LEDs from Denali.:
>
> www.TwistedThrottle.com
>
> The DX is the largest, 10 watts per LED and 10 degree angle and has dual
> intensity, 3" square 3.75" long
>
> The D2, kinda slick, it comes with two lenses a 10 degree and 25 degree 1
0
> watts per LED, 2" square and 2.4" long, dual intensity
>
> *Thanks Ron for the info and for your kind offer; the D2 (it=92s actually
round not square) is a good size for me, probably easier to mount and chea
per than the Kuntzelmans; I=92m actually tempted to get two; one with a 10
deg lense and one with a 25 deg.*
>
> *Sacha*
>
>
> *
>
===========
m>
ldersbooks.com>
.com>
com>
om/contribution>
===========
www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>
===========
===========
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing light LEDs - questions about Heat Sink |
and Flasher/Wig-Wag Noise
Bob,
where did you find the specs from ztron?
> On 17.12.2013 13:43, bob noffs wrote:
>> i am planning to use ztron. specs ae competitive and $500 for landing
>> light and strobes compared to aeroled at several times that.
>> bob noffs
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sacha" <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Landing light LEDs - questions about Heat Sink |
and Flasher/Wig-Wag Noise
http://www.ztronlabs.com/products.php
where did you find the specs from ztron?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Landing light LEDs - questions about Heat Sink |
and Flasher/Wig-Wag Noise
| From: | rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us |
Hi Sacha
Just keep in mind that the D2 is 10 watts, a little less than
Kuntzelmans. I didn't think the Kuntzleman was a great landing light,
probably OK for taxi. Kuntzelman is 12 degree and D2 can be 10
though. I Another thing to consider is if the D2 makes any sort of
undesirable noise.
Ron Parigoris
saw some
> pretty
> slick LEDs from Denali.:
>
> www.TwistedThrottle.com
>
> The DX is the largest, 10 watts per LED and 10 degree angle and has
dual
> intensity, 3" square 3.75" long
>
> The D2, kinda slick, it comes with two lenses a 10 degree and 25
degree 10
> watts per LED, 2" square and 2.4" long, dual intensity
>
> Thanks Ron for the info and for your kind offer; the D2 (it's
actually
> round
> not square) is a good size for me, probably easier to mount and
cheaper
> than
> the Kuntzelmans; I'm actually tempted to get two; one with a 10
deg lense
> and one with a 25 deg.
> Sacha
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing light LEDs |
Ron,
You wrote:
> I was at the Javitz center this past Sunday (bike show) and saw some
pretty slick LEDs from Denali.
>
By any chance, do you know the specs and source for an LED version of
the 12v DC, MR16 halogen bulb, suitable for a landing light?
I have a pair of wingtip combination position / landing lights from
CreativeAir...a company which is no longer around. The units combine LED
position lights w/ 75w halogen bulbs. I'm keen on replacing the halogen
bulbs w/ LEDs, and see that bulb manufacturers are now offering LED
bulbs to be retrofitted into the MR16 halogen fixtures. See:
http://ledsmagazine.com/features/9/6/8
The article, as informative as it may be, dwells on the special issues
of dimming and transformers, as many MR16s are used in display lighting
from 120v AC source.
Can you help me out?
thanks,
Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing light LEDs - questions about Heat Sink |
and Flasher/Wig-Wag Noise
| From: | bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com> |
just keep looking at options on their website. they display strobes in
candela and landing light in lumens. it's apples to apples comparing to
aeroled.
bob noffs
On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 10:18 AM, wrote:
> Hi Sacha
>
> Just keep in mind that the D2 is 10 watts, a little less than Kuntzelmans.
> I didn't think the Kuntzleman was a great landing light, probably OK for
> taxi. Kuntzelman is 12 degree and D2 can be 10 though. I Another thing to
> consider is if the D2 makes any sort of undesirable noise.
>
> Ron Parigoris
>
>
> saw some
> > pretty
> > slick LEDs from Denali.:
> >
> > www.TwistedThrottle.com
> >
> > The DX is the largest, 10 watts per LED and 10 degree angle and has dual
> > intensity, 3" square 3.75" long
> >
> > The D2, kinda slick, it comes with two lenses a 10 degree and 25 degree
> 10
> > watts per LED, 2" square and 2.4" long, dual intensity
> >
> > Thanks Ron for the info and for your kind offer; the D2 (it's actually
> > round
> > not square) is a good size for me, probably easier to mount and cheaper
> > than
> > the Kuntzelmans; I'm actually tempted to get two; one with a 10 deg lense
> > and one with a 25 deg.
> > Sacha
> >
> >
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing light LEDs - questions about Heat Sink |
and Flasher/Wig-Wag Noise
| From: | Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
I ended up choosing the Kuntzelmans; asked and got a deal with free shipping and
their wigwag controller + DPDT switch thrown in.
I'll try and do a similar test to yours comparing them to the headlights on my
car using a camera with the same aperture/speed settings and post some (visual)
results.
On Dec 17, 2013, at 21:07, bob noffs wrote:
> Just keep in mind that the D2 is 10 watts, a little less than Kuntzelmans. I
didn't think the Kuntzleman was a great landing light, probably OK for taxi. Kuntzelman
is 12 degree and D2 can be 10 though. I Another thing to consider is
if the D2 makes any sort of undesirable noise
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sacha" <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | nice LED website |
This website sells different LED components and accessories and appears to
be well designed.
They have lots of technical info and some neat calculators (e.g. to
calculate the size of the heat sink you need, etc).
http://www.luxeonstar.com/
sacha
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net |
Guys
Check out these bulbs before making a huge investment. I don't know if they will
work on the Wig Wag circuit but several guys are using them as landing lights.
Takes a little ( easy ) modification but they can be fitted into the old GE
landing light incandescent socket. They have more lumens and sold for $49.95
six months ago. They are now $29.95 a copy.
Hope somebody can use this info.
Bobby
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-9-LED-Black-Car-Boat-Work-Light-Fog-Driving-Lamp-Bulb-Round-27W-DC-12V-24V-/171183850523
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing light LEDs |
| From: | rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us |
Hi Fred
Prior to purchasing the LEDs I put up on the Europa org site, I borrowed
a pretty big box from a hangar neighbor who runs a auto parts store, and
also sells aviation lights. He had quite the assortment of Halogen auto
lights and an assortment of Aviation lights.
Hands down winner was the large (I think perhaps between 5+
6") lights as used on a Beechcraft. Probably 100 or perhaps even 150
watts, the reflector was secret of success.
The standard light as used by Cessna and Piper, slightly smaller in
diameter was the next best. They come in wide taxi or landing. I forget
if they are 100 or 50 watts.
A really good compromise was the same dimension as the Cessna and piper,
but half the watts. Again i forget, but either 25 or 50 watts. Yes slight
less light, but a lot less heat. Unfortunate don't have the real
estate on the Europa to use them.
Sorry for blabbing on and on, but it's not just the watt output, but
the size of the reflector and the relationship of the bulb to reflector.
I don't have any experience with a LED replacement for MR16. If you
can tolerate the heat, I think I would tend to just use what was supplied
and don't leave them on all the time (cycle when on ground). You
could try 50 perhaps 35 watt replacement bulbs? If only slight bit less
light, may be a good alternative.
Hmm, I wonder how much light you would get if you put two 75 watt bulbs
in series? Do you have two of them? Set up a relay to switch between
parallel and series for dual intensity?
If someone makes a good LED replacement, please let me know the details.
My guess is they (LED) can look bright from looking at the light, but may
not work as well as even a 35 watt halogen.
You didn't mention if they are for recognition, taxi or landing.
Ron P..
>
> Ron,
>
> You wrote:
>> I was at the Javitz center this past Sunday (bike show) and saw
some
>> pretty slick LEDs from Denali.
>>
>
> By any chance, do you know the specs and source for an LED version
of the
> 12v DC, MR16 halogen bulb, suitable for a landing light?
>
> I have a pair of wingtip combination position / landing lights
from
> CreativeAir...a company which is no longer around. The units combine
LED
> position lights w/ 75w halogen bulbs. I'm keen on replacing the
halogen
> bulbs w/ LEDs, and see that bulb manufacturers are now offering LED
bulbs
> to be retrofitted into the MR16 halogen fixtures. See:
>
> http://ledsmagazine.com/features/9/6/8
>
> The article, as informative as it may be, dwells on the special
issues of
> dimming and transformers, as many MR16s are used in display lighting
from
> 120v AC source.
>
> Can you help me out?
>
> thanks,
>
> Fred
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing light LEDs |
On Dec 18, 2013, at 5:46 PM, rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote:
> If someone makes a good LED replacement, please let me know the
details. My guess is they (LED) can look bright from looking at the
light, but may not work as well as even a 35 watt halogen.
>
>
Ron...for an LED replacement of an MR16 halogen, this is the best I can
find...Fred
http://www.soraa.com/public/docs/Spec-Sheets-GU5.3-US/SS-Premium-2-12W-300
0K.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sacha" <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
I have been traipsing around with one of these mounted on the front of
my pickup truck for the past few months; they are probably not legal on
the road and only suitable for off-road driving as the beam is 30
degrees and illuminates everything around. They=99re great on
unlit roads at night though J. Right next to this on the truck I have a
6=9D or 7=9D 100W halogen and that has a much more focused
beam which lights up objects 2 or 3 times more intensely than the LED
but only within an angle of approx. 5 degrees. So the two together work
quite well in combination (the looks on the front of the truck are
terrible, but that=99s another story J).
On an a/c the LEDs would be fine as a taxi light and I guess ok as a
landing light as far as peripheral vision is concerned (I only have 5
hours night VFR so not really enough experience to judge) but the beam
seems to lack a bit of depth (though that=99s partially but not
entirely made up by their huge light output see Ron=99s
good point in the other thread the optics matter, not just the
raw lumens).
On my Kitfox there is not enough space for the LEDs and not enough power
for a 100W halogen, so the looks of my pickup truck are not going to
improve anytime soon.
FWIW
sacha
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net
Sent: Thursday, 19 December, 2013 02:16
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Landing Lights
Guys
Check out these bulbs before making a huge investment. I don't know if
they will work on the Wig Wag circuit but several guys are using them as
landing lights. Takes a little ( easy ) modification but they can be
fitted into the old GE landing light incandescent socket. They have more
lumens and sold for $49.95 six months ago. They are now $29.95 a copy.
Hope somebody can use this info.
Bobby
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-9-LED-Black-Car-Boat-Work-Light-Fog-Driving-
Lamp-Bulb-Round-27W-DC-12V-24V-/171183850523
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sacha" <uuccio(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Landing light LEDs |
Fred/Ron,
Ron...for an LED replacement of an MR16 halogen, this is the best I can
find...Fred
http://www.soraa.com/public/docs/Spec-Sheets-GU5.3-US/SS-Premium-2-12W-3000K
.pdf
I have six of these installed at home (electricity costs a bomb in Italy).
The light quality and intensity seems to me just as good as the halogen they
replaced.
Sacha
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Lights |
At 07:15 PM 12/18/2013, you wrote:
Guys
Check out these bulbs before making a huge investment. I don't know
if they will work on the Wig Wag circuit but several guys are using
them as landing lights. Takes a little ( easy ) modification but they
can be fitted into the old GE landing light incandescent socket. They
have more lumens and sold for $49.95 six months ago. They are now
$29.95 a copy.
Hope somebody can use this info.
Bobby
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-9-LED-Black-Car-Boat-Work-Light-Fog-Driving-Lamp-Bulb-Round-27W-DC-12V-24V-/171183850523
A List reader purchased some similar products about a year
ago and experienced some interference on VHF comm.
These products invariably feature some form of DC/DC
constant current converter operating in the very high
kilohertz range with attendant risks for harmonic
radiation.
I crafted a little filter board for the gentleman
and noted a marked reduction in radiated noise here
on my bench. Returned them for his evaluation but
have not heard back.
I have a quantity of these filter boards. They're
about 1/2 x 1/2 inch and mount a compliment of
filter caps and ferrite noise attenuators.
If anyone discovers a need for some noise suppression
on commercial off the shelf led appliances, these
are available.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Replacement Crimpers |
| From: | "Bill_Higdon" <willard561(at)aol.com> |
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> At 08:46 PM 11/11/2013, you wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Bob,
> > I need to replace my long serving Paladin
> > crimpers, not due to wear, rather someone else
> > decided they needed them more than I do. One of
> > my criteria for the replacement is the use of
> > field swappable dies. Having read your writings
> > on crimpers for use with the common wire
> > terminals Id like your opinion on the
> > following dies the first one the Sargent 4100-40 is the leader in my opinion
> >
> >
>
> I'm not really in a position to offer useful
> information on the various products. I've
> evaluated a few tools and compared with the
> performance of my $high$ Amp crimpers . . . and
> found most to be satisfactory alternatives.
>
> I started to look at exchangeable die-sets
> a few years back but the cost of serviceable
> complete tools was so low that the idea of making
> one handle do lots of jobs wasn't very attractive.
> Further, the costs of loose die-sets is driven
> by volume of sales . . . seems that die-sets
> could easily approach the cost of a complete
> tool!
>
> Sorry I can't be more helpful . . .
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
Bob,
Thanks for your reply, I started using crimpers with replaceable dies when I started
working with small quantities of many different coax connectors. One thing
I found is interesting is Amp/Tyco has a simple procedure to verify the crimpers
are working properly something I haven't seen for any of the other manufacturers.
Bill
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415881#415881
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Replacement Crimpers |
12/20/2013
Hello Bill Higdon, You wrote: =9COne thing I found is interesting
is Amp/Tyco has a simple procedure to verify the crimpers
are working properly......=9D
And we can find a description of this simple procedure where????
OC
'O C' Baker says "The best investment you can make is the effort to
gather and understand information."
=========
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Replacement Crimpers
From: "Bill_Higdon" <willard561(at)aol.com>
Bob,
Thanks for your reply, I started using crimpers with replaceable dies
when I started
working with small quantities of many different coax connectors. One
thing
I found is interesting is Amp/Tyco has a simple procedure to verify the
crimpers
are working properly something I haven't seen for any of the other
manufacturers.
Bill
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415881#415881
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing Lights |
| From: | "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> At 07:15 PM 12/18/2013, you wrote:
>
>
> I have a quantity of these filter boards. They're
> about 1/2 x 1/2 inch and mount a compliment of
> filter caps and ferrite noise attenuators.
>
> If anyone discovers a need for some noise suppression
> on commercial off the shelf led appliances, these
> are available.
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
Bob,
I have an LED cabin light that has capacitance control (ON/OFF, dim) that picks
up stray interference causing it to go into a flashing mode uncontrollable by
the ON/OFF function. The only way that I can stop it is by pulling the fuse.
Would your 1/2 x 1/2 filter boards be appropriate for solving this annoyance?
Thanks
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415918#415918
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Replacement Crimpers |
| From: | "Bill_Higdon" <willard561(at)aol.com> |
[quote="bakerocb"]12/20/2013
Hello Bill Higdon, You wrote: One thing I found is interesting is Amp/Tyco has
a simple procedure to verify the crimpers
are working properly......
And we can find a description of this simple procedure where????
OC
'O C' Baker says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gather and
understand information."
==================================
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Replacement Crimpers
From: "Bill_Higdon"
Bob,
Thanks for your reply, I started using crimpers with replaceable dies when I started
working with small quantities of many different coax connectors. One thing
I found is interesting is Amp/Tyco has a simple procedure to verify the crimpers
are working properly something I haven't seen for any of the other manufacturers.
Bill
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415881#415881
It's in ENG_SS_408--9252_1.pdf, which I attached, on page 3 figure 4.
Bill
> [b]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415928#415928
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/eng_ss_408_9252_j_184.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Echoes from yesteryear |
I've been working with a gentleman who is wanting to
restore what had to be a real leading edge example of
avionics technology in 1949 . . . but then it was
a Bill Lear invention so I guess we shouldn't be surprised.
The data package for the LTRA6 radio in all it's
configurations can be downloaded at:
http://tinyurl.com/kszadqy
I'm still looking for data on the omni-radio display
heads including the cross-pointer and/or the CRT omni-scope
displays. If anyone runs across documents on these items
I'd be very pleased to add them to the library.
High voltage for the vacuum tubes was produced by a little
motor-generator not unlike this one:
Emacs!
These would take in 6, 12 or 24 volts (6v airplanes
in 1949??? maybe these radios were installed in airport
ground service vehicles too).
I was amazed at the clever marker-beacon receiver
feature . . . a simple 'crystal radio' like detector
that looked at rf from the belly mounted sled-runner
and dumped the audio right into the VHF comm receiver's
signal stream. Stone simple.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Lights |
>Bob,
>I have an LED cabin light that has capacitance control (ON/OFF, dim)
>that picks up stray interference causing it to go into a flashing
>mode uncontrollable by the ON/OFF function. The only way that I can
>stop it is by pulling the fuse.
>Would your 1/2 x 1/2 filter boards be appropriate for solving this annoyance?
I have not the foggiest notion. Capacitance based
touch switches are very low on the totem pole for
reliable functionality. I'm pretty sure they'll
never be part of flight hardware on a TC aircraft.
They RELY on a behavior that makes them function
like a little transmitter-receiver pair that's
watching for a gross change in the impedance of
its 'antenna' terminal. It capitalizes on a behavior
that we work very hard to eliminate in other pieces
of equipment and then demonstrate success with DO-160
testing.
I strongly suggest that you consider an alternative
control philosophy for this piece of equipment.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Replacement Crimpers |
At 12:19 PM 12/20/2013, you wrote:
>
>[quote="bakerocb"]12/20/2013
>
> Hello Bill Higdon, You wrote: One thing
> I found is interesting is Amp/Tyco has a
> simple procedure to verify the crimpers
>are working properly......
>
> And we can find a description of this simple procedure where????
>
Crimpers that bring dies down against hard
stops are generally 'golden' as long as they
get fully closed each stroke. The only effect
for service life that would make them unsuitable
is to wear out the dies . . . and that is
exceedingly unlikely in the OBAM aviation shop.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Solicitation for opinions on backups |
I'm working on the electrical system for my Velocity XL-RG and would like to get
some opinions on backup power.
Here's the platform details:
Continental IO-550N
28v Electrical System
Single battery
Vertical Power VP-X Pro
Grand Rapids EIS 6000
Single screen Grand Rapids HXr
Dual AHRS
Dual Magnetometers
Dynon Pocket Panel (Backup EFIS)
If the VPX should have a catastrophic failure, between the Dynon (which should
run for 4 hours on it's internal battery) and my iPad with foreflight, I should
be able to get on the ground in one piece (albeit, hopefully VFR).
Some other builders using the VPX are utilizing the multiple power inputs on the
HX display and AHRS by running a separate supply through traditional fuses/circuit
breakers. The only alternate power supply I currently have in the plans
is for the fuel boost pump. My logic is that's the only electrical component
that needs to run to keep the plane in the air.
To utilize the additional power supply lines on the HX and AHRS wouldn't be a huge
undertaking but it does add more work, more wires, one more thing that could
fail, etc.
Just wondering what others think.
Thanks,
Don
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415997#415997
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing Lights |
| From: | "Jeff B." <loboflyer(at)gmail.com> |
I've also experienced two different lamp touch switches that were
susceptible to ESD (static discharge). While not a significant concern
when underway, you might get a failure if you touch it right after sliding
across the seat.
-Jeff-
On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>
>
> Bob,
>> I have an LED cabin light that has capacitance control (ON/OFF, dim) that
>> picks up stray interference causing it to go into a flashing mode
>> uncontrollable by the ON/OFF function. The only way that I can stop it is
>> by pulling the fuse.
>> Would your 1/2 x 1/2 filter boards be appropriate for solving this
>> annoyance?
>>
>
> I have not the foggiest notion. Capacitance based
> touch switches are very low on the totem pole for
> reliable functionality. I'm pretty sure they'll
> never be part of flight hardware on a TC aircraft.
>
> They RELY on a behavior that makes them function
> like a little transmitter-receiver pair that's
> watching for a gross change in the impedance of
> its 'antenna' terminal. It capitalizes on a behavior
> that we work very hard to eliminate in other pieces
> of equipment and then demonstrate success with DO-160
> testing.
>
> I strongly suggest that you consider an alternative
> control philosophy for this piece of equipment.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups |
| From: | Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net> |
Id suggest a brownout / backup battery, for the GRT EFIS equipment, they will brown
out and reboot if you crank the engine while they are on. I used a 7ah fire
alarm battery, charged thru a Schottkey diode and feed thru a separate switch
to one of the 3 diode isolated inputs on the GRT. You may want to use a resistor
in the charge circuit to limit the current, but I have not had any problem
without it.
This allows me to boot one EFIS & the Garmin 430 to get my clearance and enter
a flight plan before I start the engine, and provides enough basic flight instruments
to get to the ground with if I lose the main bus.
It also allows you to stuff that ugly EIS somewhere other than in the panel since
you will have your screens up and running when you crank. I put mine in the
battery compartment, and instantly dropped about 40 wires that otherwise would
have had to be run to the panel. (You will seldom need to access the EIS, never
in flight)
I used an E-bus also, but now think that and the Aux circuit are redundant.
I would also suggest you revisit your decision to use a 28 volt system on a home
built, it's your decision, but you almost certainly will want to add a 12 automotive
gadget of some kind ( USB /phone charger etc), and will end up having
to add a converter.
I'm using the above on my Cozy, and would change nothing other than lose the E-bus.
My 2centavos
Tim
> On Dec 21, 2013, at 10:20 AM, "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com> wrote:
>
>
> I'm working on the electrical system for my Velocity XL-RG and would like to
get some opinions on backup power.
>
> Here's the platform details:
> Continental IO-550N
> 28v Electrical System
> Single battery
> Vertical Power VP-X Pro
> Grand Rapids EIS 6000
> Single screen Grand Rapids HXr
> Dual AHRS
> Dual Magnetometers
> Dynon Pocket Panel (Backup EFIS)
>
> If the VPX should have a catastrophic failure, between the Dynon (which should
run for 4 hours on it's internal battery) and my iPad with foreflight, I should
be able to get on the ground in one piece (albeit, hopefully VFR).
>
> Some other builders using the VPX are utilizing the multiple power inputs on
the HX display and AHRS by running a separate supply through traditional fuses/circuit
breakers. The only alternate power supply I currently have in the plans
is for the fuel boost pump. My logic is that's the only electrical component
that needs to run to keep the plane in the air.
>
> To utilize the additional power supply lines on the HX and AHRS wouldn't be a
huge undertaking but it does add more work, more wires, one more thing that could
fail, etc.
>
> Just wondering what others think.
>
> Thanks,
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415997#415997
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups |
tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net wrote:
> Id suggest a brownout / backup battery, for the GRT EFIS equipment, they will
brown out and reboot if you crank the engine while they are on. I used a 7ah
fire alarm battery, charged thru a Schottkey diode and feed thru a separate switch
to one of the 3 diode isolated inputs on the GRT. You may want to use a resistor
in the charge circuit to limit the current, but I have not had any problem
without it.
Tim,
The plan was to not power up the EFIS until the engine was running. My EIS is already
at the rear of the cabin (out of sight). But the alarm line will activate
on low oil pressure. I wanted to do a brownout/backup battery but I couldn't
find an acceptable 24v battery. Got any suggestions?
-Don
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416005#416005
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups |
Yep, 12 volt system. Sorry but I think you will run into one after another of
these issues.
Just one guys opinion.
Also if the alarm is from the EIS drop it and use the EFIS alarm instead. You won't
be able to reset the EIS alarms unless it's in the panel. So they can all
be left deactivated when you set up the EIS.
Tim
Tim
> On Dec 21, 2013, at 11:32 AM, "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net wrote:
>> Id suggest a brownout / backup battery, for the GRT EFIS equipment, they will
brown out and reboot if you crank the engine while they are on. I used a 7ah
fire alarm battery, charged thru a Schottkey diode and feed thru a separate switch
to one of the 3 diode isolated inputs on the GRT. You may want to use a
resistor in the charge circuit to limit the current, but I have not had any problem
without it.
>
>
> Tim,
> The plan was to not power up the EFIS until the engine was running. My EIS is
already at the rear of the cabin (out of sight). But the alarm line will activate
on low oil pressure. I wanted to do a brownout/backup battery but I couldn't
find an acceptable 24v battery. Got any suggestions?
>
> -Don
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416005#416005
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups |
| From: | Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
On Dec 21, 2013, at 1:32 PM, "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com> wrote:
> I wanted to do a brownout/backup battery but I couldn't find an acceptable 24v
battery. Got any suggestions?
Two 12V batteries, each with half your required capacity, wired in series. There
may be charge balancing issues with this configuration; perhaps someone smarter
than me can address this.
If you just want brownout protection, it could be provided by Eric Jones' "de-slumpifier"
super-capacitor device, rehashed for 28V operation.
Does the GRT power the AHRS and magnetometer boxes, or do they need separate backup
power feeds?
Eric
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups |
I thought about using two 12v batteries but I couldn't figure out a way around
the unequal charging issue.
The GRT display (HXr) and AHRS pull power directly. The magnetometers are powered
by the AHRS.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416013#416013
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups |
Regarding the unequal charging issue, as I recall from talking to Bob,
it's only an issue if the batteries are subjected to different states of
discharge and then coupled for recharging. I believe as long as the
units are always together, the fact that they exist in 2 cases instead
of 1 is not relevant.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 12/21/2013 04:37 PM, donjohnston wrote:
>
> I thought about using two 12v batteries but I couldn't figure out a way around
the unequal charging issue.
>
> The GRT display (HXr) and AHRS pull power directly. The magnetometers are powered
by the AHRS.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416013#416013
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups |
At 12:20 PM 12/21/2013, you wrote:
>
>I'm working on the electrical system for my Velocity XL-RG and would
>like to get some opinions on backup power.
>
>Here's the platform details:
>Continental IO-550N
>28v Electrical System
>Single battery
>Vertical Power VP-X Pro
>Grand Rapids EIS 6000
>Single screen Grand Rapids HXr
>Dual AHRS
>Dual Magnetometers
>Dynon Pocket Panel (Backup EFIS)
>
>If the VPX should have a catastrophic failure, between the Dynon
>(which should run for 4 hours on it's internal battery) and my iPad
>with foreflight, I should be able to get on the ground in one piece
>(albeit, hopefully VFR).
. . . . and a meteor through your crankcase would
certainly stop the engine too . . .
I'm not trying to be obtuse my friend but before
you starting building a plan-b, it would be wise
to assess the risks and the effects of those risks
on plan-a first.
At the same time, it's very useful to consider the
planned missions in concert with your own skill
set to craft a plan-b that will offer a 99.9%
probability of sweat-free arrival with the
earth when presented with ANY SINGLE FAILURE
in the compliment of hardware you've listed above.
You need an energy budget for plan-B along
with a SUBSET list of the goodies cited above
that will guide you to a comfortable termination
of flight should the alternator quit. Then
insure successful implementation of that plan
with judicious preventative maintenance of
the battery . . . which is how the BIG guys
do it.
You're contemplating a need for 'backup power'
based on what catastrophic failure? Have you
identified a failure that will put the whole
VP-X system to sleep? If so, you need to
have some serious discussions with Marc who
will either fill you in on where the analysis
went wrong -or- give you good reason to
remove the system in favor of a legacy design
that doesn't propagate a single failure across
system boundaries.
Attempting to craft plan-c, d, e, and f for
every imaginable failure invariably creates
a system so complex that it is MORE likely
to suffer a failure . . . while offering you
too many options at a time when you need to
be a pilot as opposed to a systems manager.
Have you listed your design goals for this
project? One-liners that speak to an objective
based on demonstrable risk and equally demonstrable
verification or testing.
This is the process we go through to craft
a plan-b based on understanding of the
system's capabilities and limits after EVERY
reason to fear it has be eliminated.
Can you post a list of your design goals and the
circumstances that drive them?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Filter Boards |
As I have explained to Lew, there are filters boards
available at no cost which MAY prove quite useful
in reducing LED fixture noises to acceptable
levels. But there are strings attached. I'd
like to demonstrate that the boards do the
job . . . an experiment that cannot be conducted
without first identifying a problem noise source
Bob . . .
At 09:28 AM 12/20/2013, you wrote:
Hi Bob. Lew Jennings here in the Palm Springs/Thermal, CA area
building a Glasair II with my A&P/IA son. Looking at changing over
from standard landing light to LED as mentioned on the Matronics
list. Do you still have a filter board available you mentioned this
morning that I can purchase? Thanks! -LewSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Have you identified a noise issue?
I'm cautious about how many of these
things I give away and under what circumstances.
They're easy to ADD to an existing light
assembly. I would rather than they NOT
be installed until the builder first
demonstrates a noise issue . . . and then
does the experiment to see if the problem
is solved by adding a filter.
It's way too easy for everybody to assume that
because the filter exists and one experiment
was useful that the thing should become standard
equipment on every future installation.
That's how the avionics master switch came
into being and plowed a very deep furrow
in the psyche of folks who deal with
airplanes.
The filters are free but let's do an ordered
set of experiments to see which devices need
it and how effective it is on an experiment-
by-experiment basis.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups |
At 04:37 PM 12/21/2013, you wrote:
>
>I thought about using two 12v batteries but I couldn't figure out a
>way around the unequal charging issue.
>
>The GRT display (HXr) and AHRS pull power directly. The
>magnetometers are powered by the AHRS.
What 'unequal charging issue' . . . are there plans for tapping
the 12v terminal of the 24v string to power some device?
A 24v battery is 12 cells in one box. Two 12v batteries
are 12 cells in two boxes. They series up and behave
just as if they were 12 cells in one box as long as you
don't mess with the junction between the two batteries.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups |
> . . . . and a meteor through your crankcase would certainly stop the engine too
. . .
>
> I'm not trying to be obtuse
And yet, here we are...
I didn't intend to discuss engine reliability. That is outside the purview of my
post. I humbly apologize if I somehow misstated my question.
> At the same time, it's very useful to consider the planned missions in concert
with your own skill set to craft a plan-b that will offer a 99.9%
> probability of sweat-free arrival with the earth when presented with ANY SINGLE
FAILURE in the compliment of hardware you've listed above.
And I've done that. Again, I didn't mean to imply that was my question.
> You're contemplating a need for 'backup power' based on what catastrophic failure?
And that brings us to what my post is actually about. I hadn't planned on a catastrophic
failure. Alternator and battery was my plan. But when you're getting
ready to jump in the water to go swimming and it looks like everyone else is
in a shark cage, you have to question whether or not you've thought everything
through. After looking at other builders using the VP-X and seeing almost a
100% adoption of an alternate power approach, I decided to post the "solicitation
for opinions".
And now that we've gone through all that, can someone tell me how to delete a post?
[Embarassed]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416021#416021
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups |
Don't assume that what you see on forums is a majority or even a plurality.
I wired up a VP-X for my project, where there is a single alternator, a
single ship's battery, and one switch that turns off all non-essential
avionics.
Each of my two EFIS screens has its own backup battery that takes over
when ship's power drops below something like 12.3 volts.
Of course the VP-X lets me turn on or off individual items for the
situation IF I have time to think about what is needed. I expect to get
30 min backup from ship's battery and another 45 min of glass panel,
which I can operate sequentially if need to get more time...but if I can
find some place to land within an hour, I have other problems. Sticking
with conventional Bendix 1200 mags to keep things simple and reliable.
Maybe others need more backup, but I don't for my missions. If the VP-X
should happen to fail catastrophically I would have to rely on my
handheld navcom and handheld GPS. I don't judge that risk to be high
enough to complicate things with wiring to bypass the VP-X.
On 12/21/2013 6:03 PM, donjohnston wrote:
> Alternator and battery was my plan. But when you're getting ready to jump
in the water to go swimming and it looks like everyone else is in a shark cage,
you have to question whether or not you've thought everything through. After
looking at other builders using the VP-X and seeing almost a 100% adoption of
an alternate power approach, I decided to post the "solicitation for opinions".
>
> And now that we've gone through all that, can someone tell me how to delete a
post?
> [Embarassed]
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416021#416021
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups |
That's what I was thinking. I was just looking for a little sanity check. :D
I thought that I had a pretty good plan but then I kept seeing others (not for
a second did I think that the builds I was seeing made up 100% of all the installs)
that were building with belts, suspenders, staples, tape and backup belts.
[Laughing]
My philosophy was to be as simple and safe. I was just starting to think that I
was overlooking something.
Thanks for the opinion!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416027#416027
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups |
Don,
Please forgive my tongue in cheek reference to over-worrying
a problem.
My intent was to highlight a common problem with plug-n-play
responses to incomplete questions.
You mentioned catastrophic failure of the Vertical Power
system as a concern. This suggests to me that your faith
in the VP-X system is weak . . . possibly because you lack
a comfortable handle on the likelihood of such an event
or a game plan for dealing with the kinds of failures
that might plague the VP-X.
This is a system design/integration problem when the
builder buys a REALLY neat box that sings, dances and
washes dishes . . . but doesn't offer a clear notion
of how one should deal with getting a few dishes washed
when the light bulb over the sheet music goes out.
You have purchased a system that would get a LOT
of scrutiny by the engineers tasked with first making
it work on a TC airplane and then qualifying it. Believe
me, there would be few if any stones left unturned.
Now the box is on your workbench . . . all you've
got are the wiring diagrams and operator's manual . . .
and you have some worries . . . but about what?
The booths at OSH are sprinkled with all manner of
'solutions' to over-worried and/or under-studied
problems. I strolled those isles 13 years running
and marveled at the kinds of things sold onto OBAM
aircraft that were never offered on TC aircraft . . .
but didn't seem to make an observable difference
in accident rates. Nor did they offer a demonstrable return
on investment for cost of ownership and loss of payload
when the empty weight of your airplane went up.
All I was suggesting is that your quest for
recommendations on a 'backup power source'
was incomplete. Has the worried-about failure
been qualified and quantified for both probability
and an energy budget to deal with it?
You're going to get a number of suggestions. How
do you pick the best one? If you add a battery or
two, battery maintenance demands go up even though
you may not need to use that battery over the
lifetime of the airplane.
My fondest wish for the List is that it be
a forum for sifting the simple ideas based on
physics and lessons learned to arrive at a lower
cost, lighter weight, simpler solution. But it
does take some time, study and establishment
of design goals.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups |
At 05:42 PM 12/21/2013, you wrote:
>Regarding the unequal charging issue, as I recall from talking to
>Bob, it's only an issue if the batteries are subjected to different
>states of discharge and then coupled for recharging. I believe as
>long as the units are always together, the fact that they exist in 2
>cases instead of 1 is not relevant.
you remember rightly . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups |
> Please forgive my tongue in cheek reference to over-worrying
> a problem.
Apologies. I was unable to discern the location of your tongue for that post. [Laughing]
> My intent was to highlight a common problem with plug-n-play
> responses to incomplete questions.
And I wasn't really looking for an answer since I really didn't have a true question.
I was really just looking (fishing, if you will) for opinions as to how
far is too far when dealing with putting in "backups".
My approach is fairly straightforward (at least for me).
I'm running a standard, stock aircraft engine, mags (not an electronic ignition).
My only deviation from what's been used in the foundation of GA aircraft for
years is the VP-X. If the stock alternator fails, I've got a B&C SD-20. If
that fails, I've got the battery. If the VP-X fails, the engine will continue
producing power (the boost pump can pull power from the VP-X or directly from
the battery). I'll be able to keep the shiny side up with the Dynon D1 for up
to four hours (much longer than the battery would probably last). I've got
a iPad with a GPS and a Garmin 396 to help me figure out where I'm going.
So I think that I've got a good Plan B, C, D, E and F.
I was just looking for opinions (not answers, opinions) on whether the additional
wire, hardware, etc. required to keep the EFIS glowing happily running after
the unlikely event of a VP-X failure was worth the trouble. And since I wasn't
born yesterday, I know that opinions are like buttholes (everyone else's stink).
We cool? 8)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416032#416032
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups |
Don,
My opinion is that I would provide power to your EFIS and main radios
that does not involve the VPX.
You have 2 alternators, so if the engine is turning you will likely have
a power supply.
When stuff goes wrong the work load goes through the roof very quickly,
so keeping as much of your panel working as possible will minimise the
rise in workload - and therefore your ability to continue to fly the
airplane. I would suggest a D1 and an iPad are already plan f rather
than plan b.
Plan b should make the failure of any one component (including the VPX)
almost transparent to the pilot. That means providing power to the EFIS
and main radio that does not involve the VPX. It would be daft to have
power available but a dark panel because one component in your system
went down.
Peter
On 22/12/2013 03:43, donjohnston wrote:
>
>
>> Please forgive my tongue in cheek reference to over-worrying
>> a problem.
> Apologies. I was unable to discern the location of your tongue for that post.
[Laughing]
>
>
>> My intent was to highlight a common problem with plug-n-play
>> responses to incomplete questions.
> And I wasn't really looking for an answer since I really didn't have a true question.
I was really just looking (fishing, if you will) for opinions as to
how far is too far when dealing with putting in "backups".
>
> My approach is fairly straightforward (at least for me).
>
> I'm running a standard, stock aircraft engine, mags (not an electronic ignition).
My only deviation from what's been used in the foundation of GA aircraft
for years is the VP-X. If the stock alternator fails, I've got a B&C SD-20. If
that fails, I've got the battery. If the VP-X fails, the engine will continue
producing power (the boost pump can pull power from the VP-X or directly from
the battery). I'll be able to keep the shiny side up with the Dynon D1 for
up to four hours (much longer than the battery would probably last). I've got
a iPad with a GPS and a Garmin 396 to help me figure out where I'm going.
>
> So I think that I've got a good Plan B, C, D, E and F.
>
> I was just looking for opinions (not answers, opinions) on whether the additional
wire, hardware, etc. required to keep the EFIS glowing happily running after
the unlikely event of a VP-X failure was worth the trouble. And since I wasn't
born yesterday, I know that opinions are like buttholes (everyone else's
stink).
>
> We cool? 8)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416032#416032
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Replacement crimpers |
| From: | Ralph Hoover <hooverra(at)comcast.net> |
OC asked about the simple procedure for AMP crimp QA.
Their PIDG crimpers have a witness mark in the die that is visible in a crimp.
It at least allows you to know that the proper crimper was used. The crimpers
is also controlled cycle so that it must be closed all the way before it will
release.
Ralph
Sent from my iPad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeffrey Skiba <jskiba(at)icosa.net> |
| Subject: | Any know is there a typical faliure mode for Soild |
State Relays
Any know is there a typical failure mode for Solid State Relays?
Like do they typically fail OPEN ??? or do they Typical fail CLOSED (just l
ike sometimes of a typical mechanical relay that the points weld together o
r the spring fails ?)
I am considering using solid state relays to replace mechanical relays but
do not know if the ssr has a failure mode worse than them.
I have attached one relay I found thus far to possibly replace a hydraulic
motor contactor for a landing gear pump.
Thanks in advance and HAPPY HOLIDAYS !
________________________________
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Solicitation for opinions on backups |
At 07:58 AM 12/22/2013, you wrote:
After reading this comment, I finally decided to actually read the
Vertical Power overview. When I was designing my electrical system
and panel 5 or 6 years ago, VP-X wasn't on my scope and I never looked back.
GOOD FOR YOU! It pays to be informed . . .
If a recommendation is that I need to backup wire around the VP-X, I
had to go "huh?"
I can see that it can simplify the electrical system design task and
adds some functionality. I can see the appeal.
I don't think anyone has recommended any such thing
yet. The phrase "catastrophic failure" was used as a
worry-topic for the VP-X. I stretched the premise
past the absurd by suggesting that 'meteors
through the crankcase' might also be considered.
The knowledgeable and skilled retorts might be
something like this:
"well considered chances of meteors through the
crankcase is Z.F x 10 to the minus gazillion
events per flight hour and the chances of a failure
that cripples multiple systems in a VP-X system is
G.C x 10 to the minus 6, 7 or 8 events per flight
hour, hence there are NO practical worry points for
either event.
Given that nobody has come forth with a skilled
MTBF study on VP-X (and none is expected), then
we are left with the kinds of analysis that can
be accomplished by judicious consideration of
design features . . . or failure modes effects
analysis.
This is an activity that I encouraged Marc to
conduct throughout the evolutionary advances
to his design. We met in the pilot's lounge
of KAAO about ten years ago when the VP-X system
was but a gleam in his eye.
Unlike some other products offered onto the OBAM
and even TC aviation markets, there has been no
hue and cry of customer dissatisfaction nor flurry
of ADs against VP-X products so I am hopeful that
Marc took my advice to heart and had conducted
due diligence in the design, manufacturing and
marketing of his products.
At the same time, all of you as mney paying
consumers of those products have every right
to make detailed inquiry as to his design and
verification processes. If you value your
aluminum AND bones, then you have a DUTY to
make such inquiry.
The VP-X system is capable of taking on task
criticality on a par with say an engine. We cannot
carry back-up engines. Unless we have a
confidence level in the VP-X system that is
within a few orders of magnitude of that
which we assign to engines, then the question
of "back up" becomes more problematic.
The difference here is whether we add a back-up
because we DON'T know or because we DO KNOW.
My bosses have paid me to find out such things
for 50 years. . . . and yes, I'm reasonably certain
that meteor shields built into the cowl will only
add cost, weight and no value. You are your own
boss. Okay boss, what's the drill going to be
for assessing the necessity and/or value of
adding a backup feature YOUR implementation
of the VP-X system?
Further, arriving at some useful conclusion will
be much easier if it's crafted and sifted here
on the List. GOOD information for doing . . .
or NOT doing things is worth sharing.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Any know is there a typical faliure mode for Soild |
State Relays
The failure mode for these devices are highly dependent on the internal
construction. Contacting the manufacturer is only way to be sure.
If it was just the internal powerFET that was the issue, the failure
modes are well understood but details of the mechanical packaging may
dominate.
Vern
From: Jeffrey Skiba
Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2013 8:27 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Any know is there a typical faliure mode for
Soild State Relays
Any know is there a typical failure mode for Solid State Relays?
Like do they typically fail OPEN ??? or do they Typical fail CLOSED
(just like sometimes of a typical mechanical relay that the points weld
together or the spring fails ?)
I am considering using solid state relays to replace mechanical relays
but do not know if the ssr has a failure mode worse than them.
I have attached one relay I found thus far to possibly replace a
hydraulic motor contactor for a landing gear pump.
Thanks in advance and HAPPY HOLIDAYS !
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
p>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
12/22/13
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Any know is there a typical failure mode for Solid |
State Relays
Jeffrey;
I have not used the DC relays which you've linked to, but at work we have
used the AC version of this particular brand of relay for controlling
heating elements for approximately 25 years. Their biggest enemy, as with a
lot of electronics, is heat. Because we do not implement large heat sinks to
cool these relays ($cost$) we oversize them by approx 4X to ensure no
heating issues and typically see less than .1% failures. (we do bolt them to
steel enclosures, so they have some heat sinking) I have no statistics on
the relative age or loads on the failed units. When the failures do occur
they are almost always failure to close (in other words fail open) I have
had one and only one fail closed however, so it would appear both failure
modes are possible. We have also experimented with sizing them to approx 2X
load current and have seen the five year failure rates rise, in this group,
to approx 5%. As a result we returned to using the 50 amp models for greater
reliability of our product. (loads are in the 3 to 14 amp range) While this
anecdotal information may or may not apply to the DC versions of Crydom's
product we're quite satisfied with the AC versions performance. I should
also mention that the equipment we manufacture typically employing these
relays runs 24/7 and these relays are controlled via a temperature
controller cycling on/off up to as much as 50 cycles per minute, so we give
them a good workout although we lightly load them.
Bob McC
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey
Skiba
Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2013 11:27 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Any know is there a typical faliure mode for
Soild State Relays
Any know is there a typical failure mode for Solid State Relays?
Like do they typically fail OPEN ??? or do they Typical fail CLOSED (just
like sometimes of a typical mechanical relay that the points weld together
or the spring fails ?)
I am considering using solid state relays to replace mechanical relays but
do not know if the ssr has a failure mode worse than them.
I have attached one relay I found thus far to possibly replace a hydraulic
motor contactor for a landing gear pump.
Thanks in advance and HAPPY HOLIDAYS !
_____
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
p>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Switch schematic |
Guys
Since I am not sure if this switch will suite my need
can somebody please post a drawing of its eletric schematic.
Thanks
Carlos
P.S. - I am looking for a switch for the fuel pump that can be powered from
2 independent power sources, being the middle position the OFF position
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch schematic |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch schematic |
Hope these will answer your questions.
http://www.jameco.com/1/1/40651-2tl1-10a-switch-toggle-ms27408-4a.html
http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/Products/ProdDS/1817426.pdf
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
On 12/22/2013 12:11 PM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>
> Guys
>
> Since I am not sure if this switch will suite my need
>
Picture removed.
>
> can somebody please post a drawing of its eletric schematic.
>
> Thanks
>
> Carlos
>
> P.S. -- I am looking for a switch for the fuel pump that can be
> powered from 2 independent power sources, being the middle position
> the OFF position
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Any know is there a typical faliure mode for |
Soild State Relays
At 10:27 AM 12/22/2013, you wrote:
Any know is there a typical failure mode for Solid State Relays?
Like do they typically fail OPEN ??? or do they Typical fail CLOSED (just
like sometimes of a typical mechanical relay that the points weld together
or the spring fails ?)
I am considering using solid state relays to replace mechanical relays but
do not know if the ssr has a failure mode worse than them.
I have attached one relay I found thus far to possibly replace a hydraulic
motor contactor for a landing gear pump.
Thanks in advance and HAPPY HOLIDAYS !
They can fail in ANY mode. I.e. stuck closed or stuck open.
It depends on the stress that might have precipitated the
failure. Were I considering such a device for use in a
TC aircraft, the litany of deliberations goes something
like this:
1. How many ways can this part fail?
2. How will each failure affect system operation?
3. How will I know it failed?
4. Is the failure pre-flight detectable?
5. Is failure of this part, in any failure mode, likely to create
a hazard to flight?
6. Will failure of this part be likely to overtax my piloting
skills for comfortably terminating the flight?
Come of the gate ASSUMING the part will fail in
every conceivable way . . . how do the answers
to the above questions affect the way you use the
part and how you react to the failure.
Rule #1 Things Break
Rule #2 Systems shall be designed so that when things
break, no immediate hazard is created.
Rule #3 Things needed for comfortable termination of
flight require backup or special considerations
to insure operation and availability.
Rule #4 Upgrading the quality or reliability of a part
shall be because you are tired of replacing it
or want some new feature, not because it damned
near got you killed.
Suggest you review this short piece on FMEA. The FMEA worka
around the problem of not knowing the whether or not the
part has established reliability numbers. Assume that it
will fail, rework the design or craft a plan-b so you can
be pleasantly surprised when it never fails but have a
comfortable response if it does.
This philosophy for systems design is spelled out in
more detail here
http://tinyurl.com/ljl9qe6
http://tinyurl.com/lfkm2fl
As a final note, be aware that your hydraulic pump
motor is probably a permanent magnet variety with
hefty inrush current. Make sure the device you pick
can stand 500-1000 amp inrush for a few milliseconds . . .
i.e. "rated" for motor or large incandescent lamp
control.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Any know is there a typical faliure mode for Soild |
State R
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
There is arguably no "typical" failure mode for anything at all.
If there were, the engineers would be happy to see it because it would be an easy
fix.
A failure can be "typical" if a device is being misused. "Hey, the device typically
fails if being misused!" I'll bet there are a million engineering stories
there.
Note: I have sold many SSRs, and I sometimes get "complaints" from customers who
think that the apparent SSR no load output voltage when the relay is OFF indicates
some flaw. Hmmmmmm....Well...there is always an no-load output voltage
on every switch or relay...ON or OFF. But an SSR won't pass more than a microamp
or so when OFF. So it won't light an LED. It is DEFINED as OFF for all practical
purposes.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416083#416083
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <berkut13(at)berkut13.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Any know is there a typical faliure mode for Soild |
State Relays
That=99s what I did...less weight, less space, less environmental
issues, cleaner operation (no contact bounce), etc.
http://www.berkut13.com/berkut50.htm#SSR
If you hydraulic system is anything like mine, you should also be used
the snap action hydraulic pressure switches.
Good luck,
James
Berkut/Race 13
www.berkut13.com
Facebook: Berkut13
From: Jeffrey Skiba
Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2013 10:27 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Any know is there a typical faliure mode for
Soild State Relays
Any know is there a typical failure mode for Solid State Relays?
Like do they typically fail OPEN ??? or do they Typical fail CLOSED
(just like sometimes of a typical mechanical relay that the points weld
together or the spring fails ?)
I am considering using solid state relays to replace mechanical relays
but do not know if the ssr has a failure mode worse than them.
I have attached one relay I found thus far to possibly replace a
hydraulic motor contactor for a landing gear pump.
Thanks in advance and HAPPY HOLIDAYS !
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
p>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Any know is there a typical faliure mode for Soild |
State Relays
they sure are pricey - $130 ea. @ Mouser, ouch!=0A=0A=0A=0A________________
________________=0A From: "berkut13(at)berkut13.com" <berkut13(at)berkut13.com>
=0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, December 22, 2013 8
:59 PM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Any know is there a typical faliur
e mode for Soild State Relays=0A =0A=0A=0A =0AThat=99s what I did...l
ess weight, less space, less environmental issues, =0Acleaner operation (no
contact bounce), etc. =0A=C2-=0Ahttp://www.berkut13.com/berkut50.htm#SSR
=0A=C2-=0AIf you hydraulic system is anything like mine, you should also
be used the =0Asnap action hydraulic pressure switches.=0A=C2-=0AGood luc
k,=0AJames=0ABerkut/Race 13=0Awww.berkut13.com=0AFacebook: Berkut13=0A=C2
-=C2-=0AFrom: Jeffrey Skiba =0ASent: Sunday, December 22, 2013 10:27 AM
=0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0ASubject: AeroElectric-List: Any k
now is there a typical faliure mode =0Afor Soild State Relays=0A=C2- Any
=0Aknow is there a typical failure mode for Solid State =0ARelays?=0A =C2
-=0ALike =0Ado they typically fail OPEN ??? or do they Typical fail CLOSE
D (just like =0Asometimes of a typical mechanical relay that the points wel
d together or the =0Aspring fails ?)=0A =C2-=0AI =0Aam considering using
solid state relays to replace mechanical relays but do not =0Aknow if the s
sr has a failure mode worse than them. =0A =C2-=0AI =0Ahave attached one
relay I found thus far to possibly replace a hydraulic motor =0Acontactor f
or a landing gear pump.=0A =C2-=0AThanks =0Ain advance and HAPPY HOLIDAYS
!=0A________________________________=0A =0ANo virus found in this =0Amess
-========================
============
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JOHN TIPTON <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch schematic |
Hi Carlos=0A=0AYes: that would certainly do what you want, they do do one w
here the switch is not locked out in the on position, convenient for a quic
k flip to switch off=0A=0AJohn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JOHN TIPTON <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch schematic |
PS: I may have one which you can have - away at the moment (day after Boxin
g Day) will let you know=0A=0AJohn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Switch schematic |
Thank you John
Merry Christmas!
Carlos
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN
TIPTON
Sent: segunda-feira, 23 de Dezembro de 2013 09:57
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch schematic
PS: I may have one which you can have - away at the moment (day after
Boxing Day) will let you know
John
_____
From: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>;
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Switch schematic
Sent: Sun, Dec 22, 2013 6:11:10 PM
Guys
Since I am not sure if this switch will suite my need
can somebody please post a drawing of its eletric schematic.
Thanks
Carlos
P.S. =93 I am looking for a switch for the fuel pump that can be
powered from 2 independent power sources, being the middle position the
OFF position
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Any know is there a typical faliure mode |
for Soild State R
At 08:08 PM 12/22/2013, you wrote:
>
>There is arguably no "typical" failure mode for anything at all.
>
>If there were, the engineers would be happy to see it because it
>would be an easy fix.
>
>A failure can be "typical" if a device is being misused. "Hey, the
>device typically fails if being misused!" I'll bet there are a
>million engineering stories there.
PRECISELY!!!! Further, it's an incomplete
analysis for all the concerns if one does not
also consider installation generated failures.
Screw fell out, wire pulled out of terminal,
fault in the controlling circuitry, etc. etc.
Doing an FMEA seems like a daunting task but
it gets easier if you ignore all the detail
reasons WHY it might fail and concentrate
on HOW if fails: (1) doesn't close on command
or (2) closed without command. The WHY is
irrelevant.
Take those two conditions and run
them through the failure detection
and response tree. What are your options
for dealing with either of those two
failures in flight . . . and can the failure
'hide' . . . is it pre-flight detectable
such that you don't take off with an already
failed component.
The SAFE airplane is one that produces
benign and/or predictably managed failures.
If parts on airplanes never failed, FBOs
would be out of business.
Your prime directive as the one and only
flight safety manager for your project is
to design for failure tolerance.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Any know is there a typical faliure mode |
for Soild State R
I wrote:
The SAFE airplane is one that produces
benign and/or predictably managed failures.
If parts on airplanes never failed, FBOs
would be out of business.
A pox on my head! . . . I've been trying
to eliminate the word 'safe' from the
lexicon of airplanespeak . . . but the
damned word is so terribly embedded in
the utopian quest by those-who-know-more-
about-airplanes-that-we-do that the
thing just slips out now and then.
I will suggest that no airplane
ever was or ever will be safe . . .
Safe
adj. saf=B7er, saf=B7est
1. Secure from danger, harm, or evil.
2. Free from danger or injury; unhurt: safe and sound.
3. Free from risk; sure: a safe bet.
4. Affording protection: a safe place.
5. Baseball Having reached a base without being
put out, as a batter or base runner.
An airplane is one component of a
transportation system with strict limits
for operation . . . limits that impose
harsh penalties for failure to respect.
The things we do in the name of 'safety'
can only go to the reduction of risk.
Admittedly, some efforts may produce
huge reductions in risk . . . like making
sure those strut bolts are Grade 8 and
not pulled from the bin of stove bolts
at the hardware store.
The Feb 2014 issue of Kitplanes has
several articles that speak to the
art and science of risk reduction.
One article in particular is written
by a pilot who crashed his RV10 and
lived to write about it. However,
unlike the vast majority of what I
call 'dark-n-stormy-night' stories
popular with the journals, THIS article
stands out as being especially introspective
and analytical as to cause/effect and
RISK REDUCTION.
I'm going to check with Paul about archiving
these articles on our website too. They
are exceedingly germane to the thought
processes that we strive to promote here
on the List.
We cannot build a safe airplane but
we can build one and operate it in
a manner that offers very low risk.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Any know is there a typical faliure mode for Soild |
State Relays
| From: | Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
On Dec 22, 2013, at 10:51 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote:
> they sure are pricey - $130 ea. @ Mouser, ouch!
eBay is your friend. A search for "SSR 100A" returns 91 hits, including app
ropriate heatsinks, starting at ~$9 delivered.
This presumes the words "China" and "Hong Kong" don't scare you. For solid s
tate devices like these, I wouldn't lose any sleep.
Eric
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Any know is there a typical faliure mode for |
Soild State Relays
At 11:02 AM 12/23/2013, you wrote:
>On Dec 22, 2013, at 10:51 PM, Jeff Luckey
><jluckey(at)pacbell.net> wrote:
>>they sure are pricey - $130 ea. @ Mouser, ouch!
>
>eBay is your friend. A search for "SSR 100A" returns 91 hits,
>including appropriate heatsinks, starting at ~$9 delivered.
>
>This presumes the words "China" and "Hong Kong" don't scare
>you. For solid state devices like these, I wouldn't lose any sleep.
Yes . . . but take care that you get a DC/DC
device . . . they LOOK just like the DC/AC.
Emacs!
Note the 5-60vdc rating on the output terminals
of this one.
I've ordered one of these to ponder and
perhaps bash on a bit . . .
http://tinyurl.com/l73b6lf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Any know is there a typical faliure mode for |
Soild State Relays
what are the power dissipation stats on these devices?- I didn't see any
data on this in the EBay link...=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____________________________
____=0A From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>=0AT
o: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, December 23, 2013 9:40
AM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Any know is there a typical faliure
mode for Soild State Relays=0A =0A=0A=0AAt 11:02 AM 12/23/2013, you wrote:
=0A=0AOn Dec 22, 2013, at 10:51 PM,=0AJeff Luckey=0A
=0Awrote:=0A>=0A>they sure are pricey - $130 ea.=0A@ Mouser, ouch!=0A>eBay
is your friend.- A search for "SSR 100A" returns 91=0Ahits, including app
ropriate heatsinks, starting at ~$9=0Adelivered.=0A>=0A>This presumes the w
ords "China" and "Hong Kong" don't=0Ascare you.- For solid state devices
like these, I wouldn't lose any=0Asleep.=0A- Yes . . . but take care that
you get a DC/DC=0A- device . . . they LOOK just like the DC/AC.=0A=0A
=0A=0A- Note the 5-60vdc rating on the output terminals=0A- of this one
.=0A=0A- I've ordered one of these to ponder and =0A- perhaps bash on a
bit . . .=0A=0Ahttp://tinyurl.com/l73b6lf=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A- Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing Lights |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
AR111 are the same as PAR-36, which are common aircraft lights. You can check these
guys and the attached PDF. I have no connection to these guys. Caveat Emptor.
LED Orientalight Co., Limited
Website: http://www.orientalighting.com
Email: info(at)orientalighting.com;
There are a zillion makers of LED lights now. I always advise builders to buy LEDs
last. They will continue to get better every month. As always, you can make
your own with DIY parts see: DX.com
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416145#416145
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/ar111_dims_251.pdf
http://forums.matronics.com//files/ar111_led_light_12v_151.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Any know is there a typical faliure mode for |
Soild State Relays
At 12:07 PM 12/23/2013, you wrote:
>what are the power dissipation stats on these devices? I didn't see
>any data on this in the EBay link...
You'll have to get your hands on one and measure it.
I bought a similar one a couple years ago and after seeing
how high the on-resistance was, I pitched it.
I'm betting they're getting better.
In any case, they are CERTAINLY suited to switching
mundane loads with just mounting surface as a heat
sink . . . the question is . . . how many calories
do you need to handle at high current.
Even so, as a relay controlling a hydraulic pump
for landing gear, simpler mass-sinking would probably
suffice given the intermittent duty service
in a landing gear system.
Will let you know what I find out when my sample
part gets here. I've got a 100A power supply
around here somewhere . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Soild State Relays |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
1) International Rectifier sells "Intelligent Solid State Switches" These take
most of the pain out of building simple and reliable SSRs. Google them. These
are available in both "high side" and "low side" types. See attached.
2) Don't forget the heat sink. Assuming the mosfet is either fully on or fully off, the heat sink is merely I X I X Rds(on). Example: FDD8445S http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/49165.pdf, is a 25A, 40V Fet in a remarkably tiny D-pak. It's Rds(on) is 6.7 m (Typ), VGS = 10V (the gate drive voltage), Id=25A (50A at 50% duty cycle). So to keep the thing under 100 degC you need a heat sink that will dissipate 25 X 25 X 0.0067 = 4.2 W minimum. Really a simple thing to do. And it costs $1.00.
3) The discussion about "What is the most common failure mode...?" for SSRs neglected
to ask "What is the most common method of abuse...?", but there is a general
rule for these devices:
Large over-currents (slowly applied) tend to cause "short" failures.
Large over-voltages (suddenly applied) tend to cause "open" failures.
But YMMV...
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416173#416173
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/high_side_low_side_fets_944.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger & Jean" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | D-sub standard & high density pin crimper |
I was just looking at my cheap($30 range) machined d-sub pin crimper, which
has the name Eclipse printed on the handle, most likely made in China. This
one looks like the one Stein sells. Stein says that this one is for
standard d-sub pins and can not be used for high density pins. However, B&C
has one that looks somewhat similar that they say can be used for either
pin, with some adjustment. So the question is does B&C have a better
crimper that can do both crimps well, or are they blowing smoke? Can the
crimper that Stein sells be adjusted to do an acceptable crimp on a high
density pin?
The crimper I have seems to do an acceptable job of crimping standard d-sub
pins, but I am expecting to need to also crimp some high density pins, and
would like to use my cheap tool, but not at the expense inferior crimps.
If someone has experience with both of these please share your conclusions.
Roger
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: D-sub standard & high density pin crimper |
| From: | Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net> |
I have both the Daniels and cheaper the Stein crimper. The problem is the cheaper
model has a rather primitive positioning device, which basically sets the place
where the crimp occurs on the barrel. IIRC, the cheap one also puts a three
crimp vs a 4 crimp on the Daniels.
I think you could pull it off after some practice runs, but having said that I'd
suggest you try to borrow a proper crimper, or take the harness in to an avionics
shop maybe. Check with your local EAA chapter also, maybe someone will loan
you theirs or come out and crimp them for you.
I don't know what these HD pins of yours plug in to, I only see them on Garmin
boxes, but I have some doubts about the quality of the crimp you would get with
the cheap model and the two issues combined would leave me with serious doubts
about the crimp.
Best regards, Tim
> On Dec 25, 2013, at 8:33 AM, "Roger & Jean" wrote:
>
>
> I was just looking at my cheap($30 range) machined d-sub pin crimper, which has
the name Eclipse printed on the handle, most likely made in China. This one
looks like the one Stein sells. Stein says that this one is for standard d-sub
pins and can not be used for high density pins. However, B&C has one that
looks somewhat similar that they say can be used for either pin, with some adjustment.
So the question is does B&C have a better crimper that can do both
crimps well, or are they blowing smoke? Can the crimper that Stein sells be adjusted
to do an acceptable crimp on a high density pin?
>
> The crimper I have seems to do an acceptable job of crimping standard d-sub pins,
but I am expecting to need to also crimp some high density pins, and would
like to use my cheap tool, but not at the expense inferior crimps.
>
> If someone has experience with both of these please share your conclusions.
>
> Roger
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | D-sub standard & high density pin crimper |
Search the archives for "D-sub crimp".
There is a whole thread on modifying the "adapter" to accommodate hi density
pins specifically related to Stein's crimper. I believe the main difference
is simply the position of the crimp with respect to the length of the pin,
but not certain.
The discussion took place around Jan, Feb, Mar of 2011.
Bob McC
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-
> server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Andres
> Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2013 12:17 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: D-sub standard & high density pin crimper
>
>
> I have both the Daniels and cheaper the Stein crimper. The problem is the
cheaper
> model has a rather primitive positioning device, which basically sets the
place where the
> crimp occurs on the barrel. IIRC, the cheap one also puts a three crimp vs
a 4 crimp on
> the Daniels.
> I think you could pull it off after some practice runs, but having said
that I'd suggest you
> try to borrow a proper crimper, or take the harness in to an avionics shop
maybe. Check
> with your local EAA chapter also, maybe someone will loan you theirs or
come out and
> crimp them for you.
> I don't know what these HD pins of yours plug in to, I only see them on
Garmin boxes,
> but I have some doubts about the quality of the crimp you would get with
the cheap
> model and the two issues combined would leave me with serious doubts about
the
> crimp.
> Best regards, Tim
>
> > On Dec 25, 2013, at 8:33 AM, "Roger & Jean"
> wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > I was just looking at my cheap($30 range) machined d-sub pin crimper,
which has the
> name Eclipse printed on the handle, most likely made in China. This one
looks like the
> one Stein sells. Stein says that this one is for standard d-sub pins and
can not be used
> for high density pins. However, B&C has one that looks somewhat similar
that they say
> can be used for either pin, with some adjustment. So the question is does
B&C have a
> better crimper that can do both crimps well, or are they blowing smoke?
Can the crimper
> that Stein sells be adjusted to do an acceptable crimp on a high density
pin?
> >
> > The crimper I have seems to do an acceptable job of crimping standard
d-sub pins, but
> I am expecting to need to also crimp some high density pins, and would
like to use my
> cheap tool, but not at the expense inferior crimps.
> >
> > If someone has experience with both of these please share your
conclusions.
> >
> > Roger
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> _-
> =====================================================
> =====
> _-
> =====================================================
> =====
> _-
> =====================================================
> =====
> _-
> =====================================================
> =====
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: D-sub standard & high density pin crimper |
I crimped garmin HD and standard pins with the b and c unit. seems to work fine
just need to watch the placement axially along the pin when going from one size
to the other. The b and c is a 4 sided crimp style.
-Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger & Jean <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: D-sub standard & high density pin crimper
I was just looking at my cheap($30 range) machined d-sub pin crimper, which
has the name Eclipse printed on the handle, most likely made in China. This
one looks like the one Stein sells. Stein says that this one is for
standard d-sub pins and can not be used for high density pins. However, B&C
has one that looks somewhat similar that they say can be used for either
pin, with some adjustment. So the question is does B&C have a better
crimper that can do both crimps well, or are they blowing smoke? Can the
crimper that Stein sells be adjusted to do an acceptable crimp on a high
density pin?
The crimper I have seems to do an acceptable job of crimping standard d-sub
pins, but I am expecting to need to also crimp some high density pins, and
would like to use my cheap tool, but not at the expense inferior crimps.
If someone has experience with both of these please share your conclusions.
Roger
________________________________________________________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Any know is there a typical faliure mode for Soild |
State R
| From: | "Jane_03" <william.nolan569(at)gmail.com> |
nice post!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416209#416209
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: D-sub standard & high density pin crimper |
At 01:08 PM 12/25/2013, you wrote:
I crimped garmin HD and standard pins with the b and c unit. seems to
work fine just need to watch the placement axially along the pin when
going from one size to the other. The b and c is a 4 sided crimp style.
-Chris
Is this the Paladin or Eclipse crimp tool?
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger & Jean <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: D-sub standard & high density pin crimper
I was just looking at my cheap($30 range) machined d-sub pin crimper, which
has the name Eclipse printed on the handle, most likely made in China. This
one looks like the one Stein sells. Stein says that this one is for
standard d-sub pins and can not be used for high density pins. However, B&C
has one that looks somewhat similar that they say can be used for either
pin, with some adjustment. So the question is does B&C have a better
crimper that can do both crimps well, or are they blowing smoke? Can the
crimper that Stein sells be adjusted to do an acceptable crimp on a high
density pin?
The crimper I have seems to do an acceptable job of crimping standard d-sub
pins, but I am expecting to need to also crimp some high density pins, and
would like to use my cheap tool, but not at the expense inferior crimps.
If someone has experience with both of these please share your conclusions.
Roger
The $low$ 4-quadrant crimp tool first offered by B&C
and Steinair is the Eclipse Tool Co. product that
I introduced to OBAM aviation about 12 years ago. At
that time I found that the pin positioners for the
20 standard density pins was drilled too deep and the
crimps were placed too far back on the wire grip barrel.
http://tinyurl.com/knhjt44
I published a 'modification' that was accmoplished on
every tool that I sold and B&C adopted the practice
when I sold the business to them. In times since, the
Eclipse tool with the stock positioner seems to be okay.
Check the crimp position on your existing 20AWG
pin.
http://tinyurl.com/mk3krvp
if the crimps are too far back on the barrel,
chuck the positioner in a drill motor, spin
it and use a file to cut down the shoulder
indicated here.
http://tinyurl.com/klojj67
For a time, I sold a 22HD pin positioner with a smaller
and shallower pin pocket for this tool. B&C never asked
to offer it . . . I think they sell a Paladin tool now.
However, Steinair has been ordering quantities of the
22HD positioner . . .
Emacs!
Which I manufacture for them in my shop. In fact,
they have a few dozen on order right now . . . need to
go make some chips on the lathe!
If you want a 22HD positioner for the Eclipse
tool, check with Steinair . . . they'll have more
in stock the first wk of Jan.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joe Dubner <jdubner(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Mystery electronic box |
Can anyone identify the box in the two accompanying photos? There are four
relays, more than a dozen silicon diodes, and a power resistor. I can hazard a
guess or two but would like to hear from someone who recognizes the box and
knows what it is.
My neighbor cut it out of a Speed Canard he's rebuilding. The operative words
are "cut out"; I do not know to what it was connected.
--
Joe
Independence, OR
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mystery electronic box |
| From: | John Tipton <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> |
What have gone an done !!!
Sent from my iPad
----x--O--x----
> On 26 Dec 2013, at 21:14, Joe Dubner wrote:
>
> Can anyone identify the box in the two accompanying photos? There are four
> relays, more than a dozen silicon diodes, and a power resistor. I can hazard
a guess or two but would like to hear from someone who recognizes the box and
knows what it is.
>
> My neighbor cut it out of a Speed Canard he's rebuilding. The operative words
> are "cut out"; I do not know to what it was connected.
>
> --
> Joe
> Independence, OR
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mystery electronic box |
| From: | "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> |
It's a relay box.
Did I win? What's the prize?
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416230#416230
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Mystery electronic box |
On 12/26/2013 3:14 PM, Joe Dubner wrote:
> Can anyone identify the box in the two accompanying photos? There are
> four
> relays, more than a dozen silicon diodes, and a power resistor. I can
> hazard a guess or two but would like to hear from someone who
> recognizes the box and knows what it is.
>
> My neighbor cut it out of a Speed Canard he's rebuilding. The
> operative words
> are "cut out"; I do not know to what it was connected.
>
Don't recognize the box, but the 1st thing that comes to mind would be a
selective controller (and high current protection for switches) for trim
functions. There are commercial products that allow 2 sets of trim
switches, and can give '1st push' priority for control, or
pilot-priority for control.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mystery electronic box |
It's a 2-channel relay deck. One pair is used for (pitch?) trim (labeled on
wire). The second may be for speed brakes or nose gear... not sure.
The power resistor may be used to limit stall current (landing gear) or the
speed of the trim motor.
This is a guess, but the wiring shows one wire set as 'trim'.
Vern
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Dubner
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2013 1:14 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Mystery electronic box
Can anyone identify the box in the two accompanying photos? There are four
relays, more than a dozen silicon diodes, and a power resistor. I can
hazard a
guess or two but would like to hear from someone who recognizes the box and
knows what it is.
My neighbor cut it out of a Speed Canard he's rebuilding. The operative
words
are "cut out"; I do not know to what it was connected.
--
Joe
Independence, OR
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Mystery electronic box |
At 07:35 PM 12/26/2013, you wrote:
<sprocket@vx-aviation.com>
It's a 2-channel relay deck. One pair is used for (pitch?) trim
(labeled on wire). The second may be for speed brakes or nose
gear... not sure.
The power resistor may be used to limit stall current (landing gear)
or the speed of the trim motor.
This is a guess, but the wiring shows one wire set as 'trim'.
Vern
That's my guess too . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Joe Dubner <jdubner(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Mystery electronic box |
Charlie England wrote, On 12/26/2013 16:18:
> Don't recognize the box, but the 1st thing that comes to mind would be a
> selective controller (and high current protection for switches) for trim
> functions. There are commercial products that allow 2 sets of trim
> switches, and can give '1st push' priority for control, or
> pilot-priority for control.
Vern Little wrote, On 12/26/2013 17:35:
> It's a 2-channel relay deck. One pair is used for (pitch?) trim
> (labeled on wire). The second may be for speed brakes or nose gear...
> not sure.
> The power resistor may be used to limit stall current (landing gear) or
> the speed of the trim motor.
>
> This is a guess, but the wiring shows one wire set as 'trim'.
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote, On 12/26/2013 18:19:
> That's my guess too . . .
Eric M. Jones wrote, On 12/26/2013 14:49:
> It's a relay box.
>
> Did I win? What's the prize?
I think you're all correct. A relay deck/trim controller makes sense especially
in light of the Speed Canard having electric trim switches on both sticks. Good
job -- apparently this was easy (for everyone except me :-)
Alas, there is no prize but I will have the satisfaction of telling my neighbor
he needs to repair the cut wires and re-install it .
Thank you all.
--
Joe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: D-sub standard & high density pin crimper |
Bob,
Mine was bought several years ago - I am away now so can't look at it but it is
the red handle type as you have in the link RCT-3. Looking at B and C site now
I see they have the Palladin. I do not think that is the one I have. Sorry
for the confusion.
-Chris
I crimped garmin HD and standard pins with the b and c unit. seems to
work fine just need to watch the placement axially along the pin when
going from one size to the other. The b and c is a 4 sided crimp
style.
-Chris
Is this the Paladin or Eclipse crimp tool?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: D-sub standard & high density pin crimper |
At 07:49 AM 12/27/2013, you wrote:
>Bob,
>Mine was bought several years ago - I am away now so can't look at
>it but it is the red handle type as you have in the link RCT-3.
>Looking at B and C site now I see they have the Palladin. I do not
>think that is the one I have. Sorry for the confusion.
Understand. The only reason I ask is because I have evaluated
performance of the Eclipse product as of about 8-10 years ago.
At that time, the stock pin positioners were 'spotty' . . .
some production batches benefit from a sculpturing of
the positioner. All versions then and now did a better job
of installing the 22HD pins with a positioner tailored to
the task.
The Paladin tool positioner spring is on the pin-entry
side of the positioner so that rotating the retainer
cap on the opposite end allows the installer to set the
crimp location. with that feature in mind, it MIGHT
also be suited to 22HD pin installations but I'd
have to explore the question in more detail.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: D-sub standard & high density pin crimper |
At 10:22 AM 12/26/2013, you wrote:
>At 01:08 PM 12/25/2013, you wrote:
>
>I crimped garmin HD and standard pins with the b and c unit. seems
>to work fine just need to watch the placement axially along the pin
>when going from one size to the other. The b and c is a 4 sided crimp style.
>-Chris
Greg @ B&C just reminded me of an evaluation
I did on the Paladin product. Yes, because
of it's adjustability, you can set it up to
do both sizes of pins.
http://tinyurl.com/jvlbavp
So in answer to Roger's original question, yes
the Paladin tool offered by B&C is user-adjustable
to do both pins, the Eclipse tool offered by
Steinair benefits from an alternate positioner
tailored to the 22HD pin.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Illuminated rocker switch |
I bought these Honeywell illuminated rocker switches
which are DPST switches, ref. # AML34 FBA4AC01, and look like this from
behind
The 4 inclinated lugs are obviously the source and load for each pole, but
I'm having trouble to find out how to connect the upper lugs, i.e, how does
the illumination lamp circuit works.
I suppose I'm having a brain freeze here.
Since they didn't come with any schematic drawing, and I couldn't find it
online, can somebody please tell me (or send a hand draw) how does the lamp
circuit works?
Thanks
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Illuminated rocker switch |
>
>The 4 inclinated lugs are obviously the source
>and load for each pole, but Im having trouble
>to find out how to connect the upper lugs, i.e,
>how does the illumination lamp circuit works.
>I suppose Im having a brain freeze here
>Since they didnt come with any schematic
>drawing, and I couldnt find it online, can
>somebody please tell me (or send a hand draw) how does the lamp circuit works?
See http://tinyurl.com/mxhhc4c
You'll find two AML documents there that
will probably cover your questions.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Putney <billp(at)wwpc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Illuminated rocker switch |
From the Digikey web site... - Bill
On 12/28/13, 7:22 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
> AML34 FBA4AC01
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Illuminated rocker switch |
Bob
Thank you for your quick answer.
I already had grabed those 2 documents over the internet, and in none of
them I was able to conclude how does the lamp circuit works, and how
shall I
wire these critters to get them illuminated=85
Could you draw a simple hand sketch?
Carlos
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: s=E1bado, 28 de Dezembro de 2013 15:55
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Illuminated rocker switch
--> <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>
>The 4 inclinated lugs are obviously the source and load for each pole,
>but I=92m having trouble to find out how to connect the upper lugs,
i.e,
>how does the illumination lamp circuit works.
>I suppose I=92m having a brain freeze here=85 Since they didn=92t come
with
>any schematic drawing, and I couldn=92t find it online, can somebody
>please tell me (or send a hand draw) how does the lamp circuit works?
See <http://tinyurl.com/mxhhc4c> http://tinyurl.com/mxhhc4c
You'll find two AML documents there that
will probably cover your questions.
Bob . . .
www.aeroelectric.com
www.buildersbooks.com
www.homebuilthelp.com
www.mypilotstore.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
List
7-Day
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Illuminated rocker switch |
Carlos;
The two parallel terminals are the two ends of the lamp. Simply apply the
correct voltage for the lamps you've ordered and "bingo", light.
If you've ordered 12VDC lamps, one terminal should be grounded (-12VDC), the
other +12VDC
Bob McC
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos
Trigo
Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2013 10:22 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Illuminated rocker switch
I bought these Honeywell illuminated rocker switches
which are DPST switches, ref. # AML34 FBA4AC01, and look like this from
behind
The 4 inclinated lugs are obviously the source and load for each pole, but
I'm having trouble to find out how to connect the upper lugs, i.e, how does
the illumination lamp circuit works.
I suppose I'm having a brain freeze here.
Since they didn't come with any schematic drawing, and I couldn't find it
online, can somebody please tell me (or send a hand draw) how does the lamp
circuit works?
Thanks
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Illuminated rocker switch |
Thanks Bill
But those are the same documents that Bob has pointed out, the first is
only
a drawing with physical dimensions of the switches, and from the other
one I
am not able to understand how the lamp circuit works..
Carlos
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Putney
Sent: s=E1bado, 28 de Dezembro de 2013 16:07
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Illuminated rocker switch
>From the Digikey web site... - Bill
On 12/28/13, 7:22 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
AML34 FBA4AC01
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Illuminated rocker switch |
| From: | "racerjerry" <gki(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> |
Hi Carlos,
It would be helpful if you would provide any markings shown on the switch housing
/ packaging.
At the bottom of the download document aml_30.pdf, on page 4, it shows connections
for the internal light. On many switches, the lamp circuit is independent
of the switch circuit. I am guessing that you have an isolated lamp circuit
and that the two straight terminals are for the internal light.
Hope that this helps. Have a great new year.
Jerry King
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416277#416277
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: Illuminated rocker switch |
Jerry
In that case, the switch light is not commanded by the switch itself, isn't
it?
So, if I want the lamp to illuminate when I turn On the switch, I'll have to
wire that externally. Am I correct?
Carlos
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
racerjerry
Sent: sbado, 28 de Dezembro de 2013 16:44
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Illuminated rocker switch
-->
Hi Carlos,
It would be helpful if you would provide any markings shown on the switch
housing / packaging.
At the bottom of the download document aml_30.pdf, on page 4, it shows
connections for the internal light. On many switches, the lamp circuit is
independent of the switch circuit. I am guessing that you have an isolated
lamp circuit and that the two straight terminals are for the internal light.
Hope that this helps. Have a great new year.
Jerry King
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416277#416277
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Illuminated rocker switch |
| From: | "racerjerry" <gki(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> |
YES and YES BUT
Oops again
I re-read your post & p 4 and see your switch AML34 FBA4AC01 is a:
AML 34 F > Rectangular 1 lamp circuit
B > Black
A > No lamp installed
4 > .187 x .020 (Solder of Quick-Connect) terminal
AC > 2-Pole
01 > maintained ON and OFF
I find the second A intriguing, as it hints that NO incandescent lamp was installed??
Honeywell MAY be using the same body on multiple switches and your switch
MAY have lighting terminals, but no light installed. Try a resistance measurement
between the two straight terminals. An incandescent light should give
a relatively low resistance reading.
Jerry King
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416280#416280
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Illuminated rocker switch |
Carlos;
Correct
Bob McC
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-
> server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Trigo
> Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2013 11:59 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Illuminated rocker switch
>
>
> Jerry
>
> In that case, the switch light is not commanded by the switch itself,
isn't
> it?
> So, if I want the lamp to illuminate when I turn On the switch, I'll have
to
> wire that externally. Am I correct?
>
> Carlos
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> racerjerry
> Sent: sbado, 28 de Dezembro de 2013 16:44
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Illuminated rocker switch
>
> -->
>
> Hi Carlos,
> It would be helpful if you would provide any markings shown on the switch
> housing / packaging.
>
> At the bottom of the download document aml_30.pdf, on page 4, it shows
> connections for the internal light. On many switches, the lamp circuit is
> independent of the switch circuit. I am guessing that you have an
isolated
> lamp circuit and that the two straight terminals are for the internal
light.
>
> Hope that this helps. Have a great new year.
>
> Jerry King
>
> --------
> Jerry King
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416277#416277
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _-
> =====================================================
> =====
> _-
> =====================================================
> =====
> _-
> =====================================================
> =====
> _-
> =====================================================
> =====
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Illuminated rocker switch |
At 10:11 AM 12/28/2013, you wrote:
>Bob
>Thank you for your quick answer.
>
>I already had grabed those 2 documents over the
>internet, and in none of them I was able to
>conclude how does the lamp circuit works, and
>how shall I wire these critters to get them illuminated=85
>
>Could you draw a simple hand sketch?
>
According to the number you cited, the switches you have
are black, rectangular devices with one lamp circuit, no
lamp installed, with .187 fast-on terminals and two Form A
contacts (two poles).
Emacs!
I presume you have #73 or #85 lamps to install
Emacs!
The schematic for these switches
Emacs!
Shows the two poles on terminals 11/12 and 21/22 with
the lamp isolated on the other two terminals. The elsewhere
in the literature I found this rear view of the termina
arrangement
Emacs!
If you look at the back of your switches, you'll probably
find numbers molded into the housings.
You probably only need one of the two poles to switch
a load so you can use either the 11/12 or 21/22 path
for this task. I presume that you're going to power all
the lights from a dimmer so one of the two lamp terminals
would be tied to ground . . . the other to your dimmer
output. For side-by-side switches, you can daisy-chain
jumpers across the row of switches to parallel all the
lamps and take single conductors to ground and dimmer.
. . . sorta like this.
Emacs!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Illuminated rocker switch |
Carlos;
Referring to the document AML30.pdf and analyzing the part number you have
provided shows that you bought the switch without a lamp installed indicated
by the "A" in the centre of the part number. You did buy the appropriate
lamp to install in this switch according to the voltage you require didn't
you? If you wished it to come with a 12V lamp already installed the central
"A" should have been a "C"
AML34 ORDER GUIDE
AML34 accepts one incandescent lamp which can be furnished installed or
ordered separately.
AML34 F B A 4 AC 01 has no lamp installed AML34 F B C 4 AC 01 has a 12V lamp
installed. For 28 volt it would be an "E"
Bob McC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Illuminated rocker switch |
In AML 24, 34 and 26 (you probably have AML24) any light circuits are
independent of the switch circuits. Looking at the spec sheet, they
only show the diagram for the various switched poles. You just hook up
the lights directly to power and ground and possibly a dimmer. I don't
think I ever saw a diagram showing the light circuit.
The AML36 series has versions where the lamp circuit is integral to
switch circuit. I'm unfamiliar with those.
I used a number AML 24 and 34 switches, all with independent lamp
circuits. I had no desire to have the light do anything other than
light up the switch label for night ops.
My switches were spec'd for incandescent lamps, however I replaced them
with LED lamps with integral resistors sourced from one of the panel
shops. They are also dimmed with units from Perihelion.
If you need indicator lamps, the AML41 indicators are a nice complement.
The dimming is critical. A bank of these switches and/or indicators
will blind you at night. At the same time, they are very nice at night
when properly dimmed. Re the indicators, I did not dim the 'warning'
and 'fault' indicators, i.e. Oil Press, Low Voltage, Master Warn, Door
Open, because they should be seen no matter how the dimmer is set. I
did dim the 'status' indicators, i.e. Buss Crossfeed and Boost Pump,
because I didn't want to be blinded when those indicators are on for
extended periods.
Here is a page showing some switch wiring - note that none of the switch
terminals are connected, only the light circuits are wired.
http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&category=5253&log=122434&row=2
Here a page showing the switches and indicator lights on the panel
(while under construction)
http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&category=5253&log=91400&row=6
On 12/28/2013 11:59 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>
> Jerry
>
> In that case, the switch light is not commanded by the switch itself, isn't
> it?
> So, if I want the lamp to illuminate when I turn On the switch, I'll have to
> wire that externally. Am I correct?
>
> Carlos
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> racerjerry
> Sent: sbado, 28 de Dezembro de 2013 16:44
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Illuminated rocker switch
>
> -->
>
> Hi Carlos,
> It would be helpful if you would provide any markings shown on the switch
> housing / packaging.
>
> At the bottom of the download document aml_30.pdf, on page 4, it shows
> connections for the internal light. On many switches, the lamp circuit is
> independent of the switch circuit. I am guessing that you have an isolated
> lamp circuit and that the two straight terminals are for the internal light.
>
> Hope that this helps. Have a great new year.
>
> Jerry King
>
________________________________________________________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Source for Relay =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=93?= DPDT (On) Off |
(On) ?
| From: | "Valin" <thorn(at)starflight.aero> |
Hey gang,
Can anyone help me find a source for this type relay DPDT (On) Off (On), 28 VDC,
Max 15 Amps? Online I can find plenty of DPDT relays but not with the (On)
Off (On) throw
Im trying to make the VPXs flap controls circuit/logic work with the Lancair Legacys
flap circuitry that provides motor braking at the limits by grounding both
sides of the motor.
Thanks,
Valin Thorn
Lancair Legacy Project
Boulder, Colorado
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416291#416291
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Quillin <rjquillin(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Source for Relay =?iso-8859-1?Q?=93?= DPDT (On) |
Off (On) ?
Unlikely you'll find what you describe.
Have you considered and dismissed the use of two DPDT relays?
At 12:58 12/28/2013, you wrote:
>
>Hey gang,
>
>Can anyone help me find a source for this type
>relay =93 DPDT (On) Off (On), 28 VDC, Max 15
>Amps? Online I can find plenty of DPDT relays
>but not with the (On) Off (On) throw
>
>I=99m trying to make the VPX=99s flap controls
>circuit/logic work with the Lancair Legacy=99s
>flap circuitry that provides motor braking at
>the limits by grounding both sides of the motor.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Valin Thorn
>Lancair Legacy Project
>Boulder, Colorado
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416291#416291
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | RE:_AeroElectric-List:_Source_fo?= =?UTF-8?Q?r_Relay_=C3=A2=82=AC=9C_DPDT_=28On=29_Off_=28On=29_=3F? |
Valin;
The functionality you're describing would normally incorporate two DPDT relays
and would unlikely be found in a single relay package.
Bob McC
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-
> server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valin
> Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2013 3:58 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Source for Relay DPDT (On) Off (On) ?
>
>
> Hey gang,
>
> Can anyone help me find a source for this type relay DPDT (On) Off (On), 28
VDC,
> Max 15 Amps? Online I can find plenty of DPDT relays but not with the (On) Off
(On)
> throw
>
> Im trying to make the VPXs flap controls circuit/logic work with the Lancair
> Legacys flap circuitry that provides motor braking at the limits by grounding
both
> sides of the motor.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Valin Thorn
> Lancair Legacy Project
> Boulder, Colorado
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416291#416291
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _-
> =====================================================
> =====
> _-
> =====================================================
> =====
> _-
> =====================================================
> =====
> _-
> =====================================================
> =====
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_AeroElectric=2DList=3A_Source_for_Relay_=93_DPD?= |
=?windows-1252?Q?T_=28On=29_Off_=28On=29_=3F?
| From: | Joe Motis <joemotis(at)gmail.com> |
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@aero/documents/content/
pct_228168.pdf
Joe
On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 12:58 PM, Valin wrote:
>
> Hey gang,
>
> Can anyone help me find a source for this type relay ' DPDT (On) Off (O
n),
> 28 VDC, Max 15 Amps? Online I can find plenty of DPDT relays but not wit
h
> the (On) Off (On) throw=85
>
> I=92m trying to make the VPX=92s flap controls circuit/logic work with th
e
> Lancair Legacy=92s flap circuitry that provides motor braking at the limi
ts
> by grounding both sides of the motor.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Valin Thorn
> Lancair Legacy Project
> Boulder, Colorado
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416291#416291
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Illuminated rocker switch |
| From: | Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
Thanks to all who responded. As usual you've been very helpful.
Now that I know the lamp circuit is independent from the 2 poles, I will hav
e to design my wiring for the illumination to work as I had planned.
Back to the bench
Carlos
Enviado do meu iPhone
No dia 28/12/2013, =C3-s 18:05, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@ae
roelectric.com> escreveu:
> At 10:11 AM 12/28/2013, you wrote:
>> Bob
>> Thank you for your quick answer.
>>
>> I already had grabed those 2 documents over the internet, and in none of t
hem I was able to conclude how does the lamp circuit works, and how shall I w
ire these critters to get them illuminated
>>
>> Could you draw a simple hand sketch?
>
> According to the number you cited, the switches you have
> are black, rectangular devices with one lamp circuit, no
> lamp installed, with .187 fast-on terminals and two Form A
> contacts (two poles).
> <6c7bf9.jpg>
>
>
> I presume you have #73 or #85 lamps to install
>
>
> <6c7c56.jpg>
>
> The schematic for these switches
>
> <6c7cb4.jpg>
>
> Shows the two poles on terminals 11/12 and 21/22 with
> the lamp isolated on the other two terminals. The elsewhere
> in the literature I found this rear view of the termina
> arrangement
>
> <6c7ce3.jpg>
>
> If you look at the back of your switches, you'll probably
> find numbers molded into the housings.
>
> You probably only need one of the two poles to switch
> a load so you can use either the 11/12 or 21/22 path
> for this task. I presume that you're going to power all
> the lights from a dimmer so one of the two lamp terminals
> would be tied to ground . . . the other to your dimmer
> output. For side-by-side switches, you can daisy-chain
> jumpers across the row of switches to parallel all the
> lamps and take single conductors to ground and dimmer.
>
> . . . sorta like this.
>
> <6c7d12.jpg>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Source for Relay =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=93?= DPDT (On) |
Off (On) ?
| From: | "nuckollsr" <bob.nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com> |
That functionality can be accomplished with two, spdt relays as shown here:
http://tinyurl.com/lw8uh8x
Sealed, plastic, automotive relays are very suited to this task.
Bob . . .
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416306#416306
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Source for Relay =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=93?= DPDT (On) |
Off (On) ?
| From: | "Valin" <thorn(at)starflight.aero> |
Here's more detail in what I'm trying to accomplish in trying to use the VPX and
its flap control features with the motor breaking circuitry of the Lancair Legacy
flap control mechanism.
The good things the VPX does for flap control is not allow deployment above the
maximum flap extended speed, incremental deployment/retraction with flap momentary
switch activation, and read/display its position.
The VPX controls the flap motor by changing the polarity of the outputs driving
the flap motor.
The Legacy's flap control circuitry, with motor braking (grounding both sides)
when not driving the motor or at its deploy and retraction limits, drives the
motor in different direction at the flap switch (DPDT (Retract) Off (Deploy))
with the positive electrical connection to both the retract and deploy circuits.
See attachment. This is much the way Bob N. showed how to do it where he was
switching the ground.
So it seems that with the VPS sending out motor commands just directly changing
the polarity that it could be hooked up to a Relay replacing the manual flap
switch function DPDT (On) Off (On). But as some have pointed out, there's apparently
no such animal.
I'm not sure how to take the changing flap control polarity coming out of the VPX
and set up two relays to achieve the same result in the Lancair wiring of the
DPDT flap control switch. I'm at novice at this but will think about it some
more tomorrow. If anyone can suggest a specific solution to this interesting
challenge Id sure appreciate it.
Thanks,
Valin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416309#416309
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/lancair_flap_drive_wiring_drawing_111.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Problem Creating AeroElectric Forum Postings |
| From: | "Valin" <thorn(at)starflight.aero> |
When I type in a post, if it gets too long, the auto preview runs over the typing
window and makes it impossible to edit. See screen shot example attachment.
I'm using Internet Explorer 10. Does anyone know how to stop this?
Thanks,
Valin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416310#416310
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/aeroelectric_postings_problem_478.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: RE:_AeroElectric-List:_Re:_Sourc?= =?UTF-8?Q?e_for_Relay_=C3=A2=82=AC=9C_DPDT_=28On=29_Off_=28O?= |
=?UTF-8?Q?n=29_=3F?
Valin;
It's simple enough to take the two wires which reverse polarity (and
which I would assume turn off when no motion is desired) and wire them
to two relays through a pair of diodes such that one polarity energizes
one relay and the other polarity energizes the other relay. One polarity
thus energizes the "up" relay, opposite polarity energizes the "down"
relay.
(As an aside the Lancair drawing you=99ve included still has the
same error in the notes on the motor leads that we discussed back in May
of 2010. Where adjacent to the red wire it says =9C- negative
close actuator extend flaps=9D it should be =9C+ positive
close actuator extend flaps=9D)
Bob McC
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-
> server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valin
> Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 12:35 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Source for Relay
=C3=A2=82=AC=9C DPDT (On) Off (On) ?
>
>
> Here's more detail in what I'm trying to accomplish in trying to use
the VPX and its flap
> control features with the motor breaking circuitry of the Lancair
Legacy flap control
> mechanism.
>
> The good things the VPX does for flap control is not allow deployment
above the
> maximum flap extended speed, incremental deployment/retraction with
flap momentary
> switch activation, and read/display its position.
> The VPX controls the flap motor by changing the polarity of the
outputs driving the flap
> motor.
>
> The Legacy's flap control circuitry, with motor braking (grounding
both sides) when not
> driving the motor or at its deploy and retraction limits, drives the
motor in different
> direction at the flap switch (DPDT (Retract) Off (Deploy)) with the
positive electrical
> connection to both the retract and deploy circuits. See attachment.
This is much the way
> Bob N. showed how to do it where he was switching the ground.
>
> So it seems that with the VPS sending out motor commands just directly
changing the
> polarity that it could be hooked up to a Relay replacing the manual
flap switch function
> DPDT (On) Off (On). But as some have pointed out, there's apparently
no such animal.
> I'm not sure how to take the changing flap control polarity coming out
of the VPX and
> set up two relays to achieve the same result in the Lancair wiring of
the DPDT flap
> control switch. I'm at novice at this but will think about it some
more tomorrow. If
> anyone can suggest a specific solution to this interesting challenge
I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2d sure
> appreciate it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Valin
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416309#416309
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
>
http://forums.matronics.com//files/lancair_flap_drive_wiring_drawing_111.
jpg
>
>
>
>
> _-
>
===
> =====
> _-
>
===
> =====
> _-
>
===
> =====
> _-
>
===
> =====
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca> |
| Subject: | Problem Creating AeroElectric Forum Postings |
Valin;
Not sure, but when I post to the list I simply send a "standard" e-mail to
"aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com" and my standard e-mail programme looks
after all of the formatting and editing. I've never used the forum forms as
such. My browser isn't involved in reading or answering to the list. Also
when replying or answering a post, I simply hit "reply" when reading the
post and type a reply. My e-mail programme looks after the rest.
Bob McC
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-
> server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valin
> Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 12:50 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Problem Creating AeroElectric Forum Postings
>
>
> When I type in a post, if it gets too long, the auto preview runs over the
typing window
> and makes it impossible to edit. See screen shot example attachment. I'm
using
> Internet Explorer 10. Does anyone know how to stop this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Valin
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=416310#416310
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/aeroelectric_postings_problem_478.jpg
>
>
>
>
> _-
> =====================================================
> =====
> _-
> =====================================================
> =====
> _-
> =====================================================
> =====
> _-
> =====================================================
> =====
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Source for Relay =?iso-8859-1?Q?=93?= DPDT |
(On) Off (On) ?
At 11:35 PM 12/28/2013, you wrote:
>
>Here's more detail in what I'm trying to
>accomplish in trying to use the VPX and its flap
>control features with the motor breaking
>circuitry of the Lancair Legacy flap control mechanism.
>
>The good things the VPX does for flap control is
>not allow deployment above the maximum flap
>extended speed, incremental
>deployment/retraction with flap momentary switch
>activation, and read/display its position.
>The VPX controls the flap motor by changing the
>polarity of the outputs driving the flap motor.
>
>The Legacy's flap control circuitry, with motor
>braking (grounding both sides) when not driving
>the motor or at its deploy and retraction
>limits, drives the motor in different direction
>at the flap switch (DPDT (Retract) Off (Deploy))
>with the positive electrical connection to both
>the retract and deploy circuits. See attachment.
>This is much the way Bob N. showed how to do it
>where he was switching the ground.
>
>So it seems that with the VPS sending out motor
>commands just directly changing the polarity
>that it could be hooked up to a Relay replacing
>the manual flap switch function DPDT (On) Off
>(On). But as some have pointed out, there's apparently no such animal.
>I'm not sure how to take the changing flap
>control polarity coming out of the VPX and set
>up two relays to achieve the same result in the
>Lancair wiring of the DPDT flap control switch.
>I'm at novice at this but will think about it
>some more tomorrow. If anyone can suggest a
>specific solution to this interesting challenge Id sure appreciate it.
My first response to this thread was without
benefit of capable image viewing . . . got a Kindle
for xmas . . . pretty amazing but limited.
No special changes needed. The wiring shown is
what I suggested earlier . . . a pair of spdt
relays for extend, retract and dynamic braking.
Output from the VPX is going to + and ground
or ground and + . . . you can wire
these outputs directly to the limit switches
depicted in the Lancair drawing.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Page <jpx(at)qenesis.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Re: Source for Relay DPDT (On) Off |
(On)
Valin,
You may have already looked into this, and I am not at all familiar
with the VPX, but if the VPX has flap control functionality, perhaps
it already incorporates shorting the flap motor for braking ?
Jeff Page
Dream Aircraft Tundra #10
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Source for Relay
> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=93?= DPDT (On)
> Off (On) ?
> From: "Valin" <thorn(at)starflight.aero>
>
>
> Here's more detail in what I'm trying to accomplish in trying to use
> the VPX and
> its flap control features with the motor breaking circuitry of the
> Lancair Legacy
> flap control mechanism.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com> |
| Subject: | More on the use of LED strings |
Friends,
In my last posting on this subject I described hooking up a 5 meter
string of LEDs to a small variable power supply and showing the results.
To me it was quite encouraging and I elected to proceed.
There was some question as to using that power supply in an aircraft as
it was a VPW (Variable Pulse Width) unit. These VPW units are notorious
for introducing considerable electronic noise into aircraft electrical
system. Another variable power supply had to be located.
Eric Jones, proprietor of Perihelion Design, advertised his
Extraordinarily General Purpose Adjustable Voltage Regulator, hereafter
referred to as the EGPAVR, as a low noise variable power supply for both
incandescent and LED lamps. Here is his documentation for the unit:
I ordered a unit which arrived in very short time and connected it up to
my power supply and the LED string.
Here is a picture of the EGPAVR connected to the power supply and the
LED string with the power out to the string coming from the variable
output (yellow lead) of the EGPAVR:
Here is a picture of the EGPAVR connected to the power supply and the
LED string with the power out to the string coming from the constant
output (green lead) of the EGPAVR:
It all seem to work quite well for my application. I plan to use a
short section of the LED string to back-light my fuel sight gage. Power
for this LED string will come from the variable output. The remainder
of the LED string will be used to illuminate the tunnel area of the
Europa and thereby serve as an interior work light. Power for this
string will come from the constant output of the EGPAVR. I=92ll have to
add an inline switch from the constant output to the work LED string.
This is so that the interior work light doesn=92t come on every time the
sight gage is illuminated, it can be turned on only when needed.
Now, if only it will warm up enough for me to get back to work in the
hanger. It has been quite cold here in N.TX. I=92ve tried a couple of
the warmer days to work but still froze. And there=92s no way that
epoxy will set up in this weather. So I work at home in the shop on
other projects.
Next posting on this subject will happen when I have had time &
temperature to install the LED strings and EGPAVR in the aircraft.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (50 hrs).
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Roger & Jean" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 59-1?Q?Re:_AeroElectric-List:_Re:_Source_for_Relay_=3F=22_DP?= |
=?iso-8859-1?Q?DT_=28On=29_Off_=28On=29_=3F?
>>The good things the VPX does for flap control is not allow deployment
>>above the maximum flap extended speed
> No special changes needed. The wiring shown is
> what I suggested earlier . . . a pair of spdt
> relays for extend, retract and dynamic braking.
I believe that you could add the feature of not deploying the flaps
above a given airspeed by adding a pressure switch activated by the pito air
pressure system. This would be a normally closed switch inserted in series
between the flap down position switch and its relay. It will then be
adjusted to open at the maximum flap deployment speed. With this mod you
can retract the flaps above the max deployment speed but would be unable to
deploy at the high speed.
Roger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Re: Source for Relay DPDT (On) |
Off (On)
At 01:38 PM 12/29/2013, you wrote:
>
>Valin,
>
>You may have already looked into this, and I am not at all familiar
>with the VPX, but if the VPX has flap control functionality, perhaps
>it already incorporates shorting the flap motor for braking ?
Good questions. I've dropped Marc a note
to inquire into the flap motor output
characteristics . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Valin & Allyson Thorn" <thorn(at)starflight.aero> |
| Subject: | Re: Source for Relay DPDT (On) Off (On ? -- VPX |
to Lancair Flap Motor Integration
Thanks Bob McC, you have an excellent memory. I=99ve corrected
those labels now.
I=99ve worked up a drawing with yours and the other=99s
suggestion to just use two relays to interface between the VPX and
Lancair flap motor circuitry. I=99ve attached the drawing. If
anyone sees any problems or can suggest how to make it simpler please
let me know.
I expect Marc at VPX will be concerned the VPX will use the position
senor to stop the flaps and if a limit switch stops it first the VPX
will see it as a fault. So for it to work this way the VPX stop
settings using the position sensor (not as accurate) will have to be in
sync with the limit switches. And the position sensor may not be
accurate enough to sync with the limit switches.
A big thanks for everyone=99s help!
Valin
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
McCallum
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 9:34 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Source for Relay
=C3=A2=82=AC=9C DPDT (On) Off (On) ?
Valin;
It's simple enough to take the two wires which reverse polarity (and
which I would assume turn off when no motion is desired) and wire them
to two relays through a pair of diodes such that one polarity energizes
one relay and the other polarity energizes the other relay. One polarity
thus energizes the "up" relay, opposite polarity energizes the "down"
relay.
(As an aside the Lancair drawing you=99ve included still has the
same error in the notes on the motor leads that we discussed back in May
of 2010. Where adjacent to the red wire it says =9C- negative
close actuator extend flaps=9D it should be =9C+ positive
close actuator extend flaps=9D)
Bob McC
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-
> server(at)matronics.com ] On Behalf Of
Valin
> Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 12:35 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Source for Relay
=C3=A2=82=AC=9C DPDT (On) Off (On) ?
December 07, 2013 - December 29, 2013
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-md