AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-my

December 08, 2015 - January 21, 2016



      Battery 13.12 volts.
      "On" side of master contactor to airframe ground 12.25 volts.
      "On" side of starter contactor to airframe ground while cranking 8.6 to 
      9.0 volts.
      Big wire on starter to airframe ground while cranking is 8.6 volts or less.
      
      All this was done with a genuine Harbor Freight $4.00 digital meter. I 
      believe that this points to the starter contactor as the culprit. Correct?
      
      john
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Circuit breaker question
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 08, 2015
You are right Charlie. I should not have suggested a smaller wire size without knowing the ampacity of the alternator. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450830#450830 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Weak Starter
Date: Dec 08, 2015
Be advised, some if not all lycoming skytec starters have a contactor (solen oid) on the starter as well. > On Dec 8, 2015, at 16:59, speedy11(at)aol.com wrote: > > John, > I had the same issue on my IO-390. Skytec worked okay for five years then got slower and slower. I did all of the same checks you are talking about. Replaced the starter. Problem solved. > See if you can borrow a starter from someone and try it on your plane. > Stan > > My Skytec starter barely turns over an IO320. > > I measured: > > Battery 13.12 volts. > "On" side of master contactor to airframe ground 12.25 volts. > "On" side of starter contactor to airframe ground while cranking 8.6 to > 9.0 volts. > Big wire on starter to airframe ground while cranking is 8.6 volts or less . > > All this was done with a genuine Harbor Freight $4.00 digital meter. I > believe that this points to the starter contactor as the culprit. Correct? > > john > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Revisiting Ground Power Adapter: Modern Chargers
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 10, 2015
Greetings All! I recently updated my Europa/Rotax to move my batteries to the back of the airframe from the firewall. Since the batteries are now inaccessible, I decided to install a formal charging port on the fuselage. Starting with Bob's original design, I used the circuit design, changing only the receptacle to an Anderson Power Products 175 AH (I just couldn't justify the weight of the antique, massive Piper receptacle). The System works well when connected to an external 12V truck battery, or when connected to an old fashioned (20-30 year old) aircraft shop charger. However, when driving the airframe battery with a modern, computer- controlled charger, the charge port contactor relay chatters (oscillates open-closed) at 3-5 Hz. If I modify the Nuckoll's circuit to remove the kickback diode on the contactor (1N4001), the chatter stops and circuit performs as expected. I have yet to put a scope on the circuit, but the 12 Henries of reactance I estimated on the White-Rogers Type 71 coil seems to interact badly with the voltage sensing feature of "Smart" chargers. Any Thoughts? Ira -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450860#450860 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 10, 2015
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Circuit breaker question
At 06:02 PM 12/7/2015, you wrote: >Jones > >Hangar talk with a neighbor. He is designing a >circuit using 4awg wire for his alternator. He >asked me if he could use 2 - 50A circuit >breakers wired in Parallel for this purpose >instead of a single 100A breaker. Chapter 11 in >AC 43 says to use a 100A breaker or a 70A fuse >for 4AWG wire. I suggested the use of a 70A ANL >fuse, but wasn=99t sure what the answer is to the CB question he had. Few OEMs (if any) in the certified iron business use circuit breakers in the alternator b-lead. At Beech, current limiters on the firewall have protected the b-lead for 30 or more years. Check out the products on this webpage http://tinyurl.com/by5qnop These are miniature, high current fuses and matching holders widely available through automotive and mobile sound system dealers. You can find all sizes along with mounting bases on ebay. http://tinyurl.com/jn9k9nu One caveat . . . AVOID the fuse holders that grip the fat-wires with mash-screws. You want a holder with captive, male studs which are used to place the fuse-tab into intimate contact with the ring-terminal on the end of your b-lead wiring. A holder like this one http://tinyurl.com/54fk can be 'modified' to a satisfactory aviation fuse holder by discarding the mash-screws and dropping your ring terminals over the fuse attach screws. Consider making your own fuse holder . . . A block carved from phenolic, delrin, micarta or other high temp, machinable plastic. http://tinyurl.com/jdatd3e These parts combined with some 10-32 stainless steel screws, nuts and washers from a hardware store will produce a robust alternative to purchased/modified fuse holders. Pick a MIDI fuse rating at or just above the alternator rating. If the guy wants to use a breaker, the rating should be 20-50% LARGER than the alternator output. Finally, DO NOT parallel breakers. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 10, 2015
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Revisiting Ground Power Adapter: Modern Chargers
However, when driving the airframe battery with a modern, computer- controlled charger, the charge port contactor relay chatters (oscillates open-closed) at 3-5 Hz. If I modify the Nuckoll's circuit to remove the kickback diode on the contactor (1N4001), the chatter stops and circuit performs as expected. I have yet to put a scope on the circuit, but the 12 Henries of reactance I estimated on the White-Rogers Type 71 coil seems to interact badly with the voltage sensing feature of "Smart" chargers. May very well be . . . the current bevy of 'smart chargers' seem to have many and varied minds of their own. I did some tests on a "carbon foam" SVLA battery for Beech a few years ago. This 100AH battery would not charge in a timely manner with any of my 'standard' chargers. I purchased a new Schumacher charger rated at 25A. Here's a voltage plot of the charger's output for recovering from a deep discharge Emacs! Batteries are probably the ultimate integrators of 'rough' charging profiles but as you've noted, 'foreign' devices in the circuit may produce unexpected behaviors. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Circuit breaker question
From: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com>
Date: Dec 10, 2015
On 12/10/2015 8:16 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > Few OEMs (if any) in the certified iron business > use circuit breakers in the alternator b-lead. Hey Bob! You're overlooking our friends at Cessna, responsible for almost half the single engine land aircraft out there! From the first installation of alternators through, I believe, today, they put a breaker at the main bus where the alternator power enters... in my '76 Cardinal (12 volt) that's a 60 amp beast which is hard to come by, and subject of several service bulletins over the years (aluminum bus heating causing false tripping, etc.) Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Circuit breaker question
Date: Dec 10, 2015
Convinced him to go with ANL fuses. Where is the best place to locate them? C lose to the alternator or close to the battery? Bob's Z diagrams show them near the battery. If protecting against a short, w ouldn't the battery end of the b lead be best? Or are we simply protecting f rom an over amperage condition? Justin > On Dec 10, 2015, at 07:16, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelect ric.com> wrote: > > At 06:02 PM 12/7/2015, you wrote: ring.com> >> >> Hangar talk with a neighbor. He is designing a circuit using 4awg wire fo r his alternator. He asked me if he could use 2 - 50A circuit breakers wire d in Parallel for this purpose instead of a single 100A breaker. Chapter 11 i n AC 43 says to use a 100A breaker or a 70A fuse for 4AWG wire. I suggested t he use of a 70A ANL fuse, but wasn=99t sure what the answer is to the C B question he had. > > Few OEMs (if any) in the certified iron business > use circuit breakers in the alternator b-lead. > At Beech, current limiters on the firewall have > protected the b-lead for 30 or more years. > > Check out the products on this webpage > > http://tinyurl.com/by5qnop > > These are miniature, high current fuses > and matching holders widely available through > automotive and mobile sound system dealers. > You can find all sizes along with mounting > bases on ebay. > > http://tinyurl.com/jn9k9nu > > One caveat . . . AVOID the fuse holders > that grip the fat-wires with mash-screws. > You want a holder with captive, male studs > which are used to place the fuse-tab into > intimate contact with the ring-terminal on > the end of your b-lead wiring. > > A holder like this one > > http://tinyurl.com/54fk > > can be 'modified' to a satisfactory aviation > fuse holder by discarding the mash-screws > and dropping your ring terminals over the > fuse attach screws. > > Consider making your own fuse holder . . . > A block carved from phenolic, delrin, micarta > or other high temp, machinable plastic. > > http://tinyurl.com/jdatd3e > > These parts combined with some 10-32 stainless > steel screws, nuts and washers from a hardware > store will produce a robust alternative > to purchased/modified fuse holders. > > Pick a MIDI fuse rating at or just above > the alternator rating. If the guy wants to > use a breaker, the rating should be 20-50% > LARGER than the alternator output. Finally, > DO NOT parallel breakers. > > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Circuit breaker question
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 10, 2015
wrote: >Convinced him to go with ANL fuses. Where is the best place to locate >them? Close to the alternator or close to the battery? > >Bob's Z diagrams show them near the battery. If protecting against a >short, wouldn't the battery end of the b lead be best? Or are we simply >protecting from an over amperage condition? > >Justin > > > >> On Dec 10, 2015, at 07:16, Robert L. Nuckolls, III > wrote: >> >> At 06:02 PM 12/7/2015, you wrote: > >>> >>> Hangar talk with a neighbor. He is designing a circuit using 4awg >wire for his alternator. He asked me if he could use 2 - 50A circuit >breakers wired in Parallel for this purpose instead of a single 100A >breaker. Chapter 11 in AC 43 says to use a 100A breaker or a 70A fuse >for 4AWG wire. I suggested the use of a 70A ANL fuse, but wasnt sure >what the answer is to the CB question he had. >> >> Few OEMs (if any) in the certified iron business >> use circuit breakers in the alternator b-lead. >> At Beech, current limiters on the firewall have >> protected the b-lead for 30 or more years. >> >> Check out the products on this webpage >> >> http://tinyurl.com/by5qnop >> >> These are miniature, high current fuses >> and matching holders widely available through >> automotive and mobile sound system dealers. >> You can find all sizes along with mounting >> bases on ebay. >> >> http://tinyurl.com/jn9k9nu >> >> One caveat . . . AVOID the fuse holders >> that grip the fat-wires with mash-screws. >> You want a holder with captive, male studs >> which are used to place the fuse-tab into >> intimate contact with the ring-terminal on >> the end of your b-lead wiring. >> >> A holder like this one >> >> http://tinyurl.com/54fk >> >> can be 'modified' to a satisfactory aviation >> fuse holder by discarding the mash-screws >> and dropping your ring terminals over the >> fuse attach screws. >> >> Consider making your own fuse holder . . . >> A block carved from phenolic, delrin, micarta >> or other high temp, machinable plastic. >> >> http://tinyurl.com/jdatd3e >> >> These parts combined with some 10-32 stainless >> steel screws, nuts and washers from a hardware >> store will produce a robust alternative >> to purchased/modified fuse holders. >> >> Pick a MIDI fuse rating at or just above >> the alternator rating. If the guy wants to >> use a breaker, the rating should be 20-50% >> LARGER than the alternator output. Finally, >> DO NOT parallel breakers. >> >> >> Bob . . . Battery end. Battery can melt the wire; alt cannot. -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: ADS-B antenna location
From: "jrevens" <jrevens(at)comcast.net>
Date: Dec 10, 2015
I stupidly did a very nice ADS-B UAT antenna installation on my new project before doing all of my homework. It is 45 inches from my transponder antenna. I just received my ADS600-EXP unit. NavWorx says that there must be a minimum of 5 feet of separation or the ADS-B unit will fail (their words). Has anyone broken this rule and had successful operation with less than 5 feet of separation? Can a closer distance actually cause damage to the unit? In this particular instance, moving the ADS-B antenna will be a difficult and messy change to have to make. Can't believe I did that. -------- John Evens Thorp T-18 N71JE (built & flying) Kitfox SS7 N27JE (building) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450878#450878 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on C essna 182P
From: "sacha" <uuccio(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 10, 2015
That's a good idea. I asked my A&P if he could do that but he said it would be a lot of work. I will see if I can devise a way. Seems like it would be a good test. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450879#450879 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 10, 2015
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Circuit breaker question
At 12:30 PM 12/10/2015, you wrote: > > >On 12/10/2015 8:16 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>Few OEMs (if any) in the certified iron business >> use circuit breakers in the alternator b-lead. > >Hey Bob! > >You're overlooking our friends at Cessna, responsible for almost >half the single engine land aircraft out there! From the first >installation of alternators through, I believe, today, they put a >breaker at the main bus where the alternator power enters... in my >'76 Cardinal (12 volt) that's a 60 amp beast which is hard to come >by, and subject of several service bulletins over the years >(aluminum bus heating causing false tripping, etc.) Yes, that's where they were when I worked there too . . . but I thought those were moved off the panel when the Lamar power distribution box went into production . . . and that's been some time ago. I'll have to check my G2 sources . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 10, 2015
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Circuit breaker question
At 02:21 PM 12/10/2015, you wrote: >Convinced him to go with ANL fuses. Where is the best place to >locate them? Close to the alternator or close to the battery? > >Bob's Z diagrams show them near the battery. If protecting against a >short, wouldn't the battery end of the b lead be best? Or are we >simply protecting from an over amperage condition? Close to the battery. An alternator is physically incapable of burning its own b-lead . . . but the BATTERY is good for 1000+ amps in a fault condition. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: ADS-B antenna location
Date: Dec 10, 2015
John, Others will answer with greater detail, but here is what you are up against. . . The transponder puts out high wattage pulse returns in answer to a radar inquiry. That pulse of power is going to hit your ADS antenna pretty hard. I don't have a clue what modern receiver solid state circuits can deal with these days but, that pulse is made up of a huge bandwidth of harmonics, etc. that typically make up/define a "pulse". My thinking is that 60" and more is needed to not cause problems. . . David ----- Original Message ----- From: "jrevens" <jrevens(at)comcast.net> Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 4:17 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: ADS-B antenna location > > I stupidly did a very nice ADS-B UAT antenna installation on my new > project before doing all of my homework. It is 45 inches from my > transponder antenna. I just received my ADS600-EXP unit. NavWorx says > that there must be a minimum of 5 feet of separation or the ADS-B unit > will fail (their words). Has anyone broken this rule and had successful > operation with less than 5 feet of separation? Can a closer distance > actually cause damage to the unit? In this particular instance, moving the > ADS-B antenna will be a difficult and messy change to have to make. Can't > believe I did that. > > -------- > John Evens > Thorp T-18 N71JE (built & flying) > Kitfox SS7 N27JE (building) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450878#450878 > > > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ADS-B antenna location
From: Rob Turk <matronics(at)rtist.nl>
Date: Dec 11, 2015
The transponder transmits a certain amount of energy. As you move away from the antenna, the energy spreads out. Only some of the transmitted energy will hit the receiving antenna and the further you move away, the less energy will be 'caught'. When too close, the amount of energy induced in the receiver antenna can overwhelm or even damage the sensitive ADS-B receiver. The attenuation between transmitter antenna and receiver antenna is called 'free space path loss'. There is a formula to calculate that loss, and here's a link that will let you play with it: https://www.pasternack.com/t-calculator-fspl.aspx Using that calculator, the difference between 45 inches and 5ft at 1GHz is less than 3dB. That is not a whole lot. A poor quality antenna cable will already give you that. That means for your situation that you can simulate the extra distance by adding a 3dB attenuator in your receiver antenna cable. The drawback is that you'll have slightly worse coverage (the signals that you want are also attenuated a bit), but should be safe. You may want to call NavWorx and ask them about this. Things also depend on the rest of your installation, such as type and output of your transponder, antenna cable type and lengths for both devices, etc. Rob On 12/11/2015 3:55 AM, David Lloyd wrote: > > > John, > > Others will answer with greater detail, but here is what you are up > against. . . > > The transponder puts out high wattage pulse returns in answer to a > radar inquiry. That pulse of power is going to hit your ADS antenna > pretty hard. I don't have a clue what modern receiver solid state > circuits can deal with these days but, that pulse is made up of a huge > bandwidth of harmonics, etc. that typically make up/define a "pulse". > My thinking is that 60" and more is needed to not cause problems. . . > David > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "jrevens" <jrevens(at)comcast.net> > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 4:17 PM > Subject: AeroElectric-List: ADS-B antenna location > > >> >> I stupidly did a very nice ADS-B UAT antenna installation on my new >> project before doing all of my homework. It is 45 inches from my >> transponder antenna. I just received my ADS600-EXP unit. NavWorx >> says that there must be a minimum of 5 feet of separation or the >> ADS-B unit will fail (their words). Has anyone broken this rule and >> had successful operation with less than 5 feet of separation? Can a >> closer distance actually cause damage to the unit? In this particular >> instance, moving the ADS-B antenna will be a difficult and messy >> change to have to make. Can't believe I did that. >> >> -------- >> John Evens >> Thorp T-18 N71JE (built & flying) >> Kitfox SS7 N27JE (building) >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450878#450878 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Diagnosing Electrical Problem
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 17, 2015
Quoted from Jan 2016 Kitplanes by David Boeshaar > After hours of diagnosing an electrical problem and you ask for help, the solution will be blatantly obvious to everyone else, even people who know nothing about electrical problems. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451010#451010 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Diagnosing Electrical Problem
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 18, 2015
To quote Steve Jobs: Yeah, so? -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451014#451014 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Diagnosing Electrical Problem
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 18, 2015
> Yeah, so? Well, it has been kind dead on this website for awhile. Thought I would start a new dialog. Many electrical troubleshooters have been stumped and frustrated by a problem that turned out to be something very simple. Maybe some forum members would like to share their experience. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451015#451015 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Low Voltage Annunciator
From: "N38CW" <billsettle(at)bellsouth.net>
Date: Dec 18, 2015
I have an LED in my panel that I want to illuminate on Low Volts. I found Bob's AEC9005 module on his website and would like to buy/build one. Does anyone know if they are available and if not, how about the board. I believe I can probably find most of the parts but they won't do me any good without the printed board. Anyone know of any alternatives? Thanks. -------- Bill Settle RV-8 Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451016#451016 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Diagnosing Electrical Problem
Date: Dec 18, 2015
Joe, Glad you opened up this "thread". Odd mysteries of electrical problems come in all sizes and will never end. Fast little electrons running thru all sorts of mazes are bound to find a black hole or change at the oddest times. . . One of my experiences that turned out to be dead simple kept me grounded for 2 days in a remote airport. I landed my Cessna 185 in a farmers strip to visit one of my sons and family that was only 5 min's away. The flight in was normal and this airplanes electrical system was stable. Two days later, when I fired up to leave, I had no alternator output. . or, so I thought. I was there with only simple hand tools and no instruments to diagnose the problem. I could not find any wiring breaks, i.e. the field wire breaking from vibration, etc. So, with my pitiful few tools, I took the alternator and regulator off, called my son and he drove me to finally find an auto shop to test same. Both units tested fine. I reinstalled them and made sure the belt was not slipping and then, counted all the skin that I had left doing this in and out thing. I had some spare wire, so I began to do some connection jumping and found the problem. This Cessna had its original main 60 amp circuit breaker. These are the non-pullable style, but, they do pop out when triggered. The breaker outwardly appeared fine. But, when I shorted across it, the electrical system came alive showing charging current. How odd that the CB opened up but, did not trigger the pop-out indicator. Later, it was determined that the CB had not opened due to excessive current, but, failed anyway. Reason unknown. . . In this case, I had no options for replacing it until back at my home airport and I did not want to install the shorting wire. So, I removed the battery stayed an extra night with my son while topping off the battery's charge. Reinstalled the next day and flew the 3 hours home with the panel turned off. Only turned things back on for radio announcements for landing and taxi. If I carried my normal "kit", VOM and tools, this would have gone a lot quicker to diagnose. . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 7:08 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Diagnosing Electrical Problem > > >> Yeah, so? > > Well, it has been kind dead on this website for awhile. Thought I would > start a new dialog. Many electrical troubleshooters have been stumped and > frustrated by a problem that turned out to be something very simple. > Maybe some forum members would like to share their experience. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451015#451015 > > > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Diagnosing Electrical Problem
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 18, 2015
I know it's 'after the fact', but the auto parts store probably would have had a 12V test light & some hookup wire for cheap, or at least the wire & a 12 V bulb. Would have made the chore of finding the problem a bit quicker. (You'd have seen the 14V on the source side of the alt breaker, & known that the alt was working.) Charlie (shade tree troubleshooting & repair for over 50 years....) On 12/18/2015 12:08 PM, David Lloyd wrote: > > > Joe, > Glad you opened up this "thread". > Odd mysteries of electrical problems come in all sizes and will never > end. Fast little electrons running thru all sorts of mazes are bound > to find a black hole or change at the oddest times. . . > One of my experiences that turned out to be dead simple kept me > grounded for 2 days in a remote airport. > > I landed my Cessna 185 in a farmers strip to visit one of my sons and > family that was only 5 min's away. The flight in was normal and this > airplanes electrical system was stable. Two days later, when I fired > up to leave, I had no alternator output. . or, so I thought. I was > there with only simple hand tools and no instruments to diagnose the > problem. I could not find any wiring breaks, i.e. the field wire > breaking from vibration, etc. So, with my pitiful few tools, I took > the alternator and regulator off, called my son and he drove me to > finally find an auto shop to test same. Both units tested fine. I > reinstalled them and made sure the belt was not slipping and then, > counted all the skin that I had left doing this in and out thing. > I had some spare wire, so I began to do some connection jumping and > found the problem. > This Cessna had its original main 60 amp circuit breaker. These are > the non-pullable style, but, they do pop out when triggered. The > breaker outwardly appeared fine. But, when I shorted across it, the > electrical system came alive showing charging current. How odd that > the CB opened up but, did not trigger the pop-out indicator. Later, it > was determined that the CB had not opened due to excessive current, > but, failed anyway. Reason unknown. . . > In this case, I had no options for replacing it until back at my home > airport and I did not want to install the shorting wire. So, I > removed the battery stayed an extra night with my son while topping > off the battery's charge. Reinstalled the next day and flew the 3 > hours home with the panel turned off. Only turned things back on for > radio announcements for landing and taxi. > If I carried my normal "kit", VOM and tools, this would have gone a > lot quicker to diagnose. . . . > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> > To: > Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 7:08 AM > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Diagnosing Electrical Problem > > >> >> >>> Yeah, so? >> >> Well, it has been kind dead on this website for awhile. Thought I >> would start a new dialog. Many electrical troubleshooters have been >> stumped and frustrated by a problem that turned out to be something >> very simple. Maybe some forum members would like to share their >> experience. >> >> -------- >> Joe Gores >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451015#451015 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Low Voltage Annunciator
From: "pestar" <peter(at)reivernet.com>
Date: Dec 18, 2015
Go here; http://periheliondesign.com/lvwaabm.htm. Cheers Peter Peter Armstrong Auckland - New Zealand -------- Peter Armstrong Auckland, New Zealand DynAero MCR-4S (Do not shoot me :) ). Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451018#451018 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Low Voltage Annunciator
From: "N38CW" <billsettle(at)bellsouth.net>
Date: Dec 18, 2015
Awesome, Peter. Thank you very much! Exactly what I am looking for. -------- Bill Settle RV-8 Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451020#451020 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2015
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Low Voltage Annunciator
At 11:57 AM 12/18/2015, you wrote: > >I have an LED in my panel that I want to illuminate on Low Volts. I >found Bob's AEC9005 module on his website and would like to >buy/build one. Does anyone know if they are available and if not, >how about the board. I believe I can probably find most of the >parts but they won't do me any good without the printed >board. Anyone know of any alternatives? Thanks. Are you flying yet? If not, what is the anticipated first light under the wheels? I'm wrapping up about a half dozen AEC products for addition to the B&C catalog . . . one of which is a 4-function module that will manage an aux battery, annunciate low voltage, manage an ov event on a pm alternator or manage a battery contactor to minimize power consumption. http://tinyurl.com/peyfl8s If you would like to be the beta-test aircraft for this product, I'll offer you one free of charge in exchange for your user-evaluation of the installation instructions and product performance in the selected application. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Diagnosing Electrical Problem
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 18, 2015
Skywagon, thanks for sharing. We can learn from the experiences of others. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451047#451047 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Low Voltage Annunciator
From: "N38CW" <billsettle(at)bellsouth.net>
Date: Dec 19, 2015
... If you would like to be the beta-test aircraft for this product, I'll offer you one free of charge in exchange for your user-evaluation of the installation instructions and product performance in the selected application. Bob . . .[/quote] Hi Bob. I appreciate the offer and I would be happy to do if for you but I am not close to flying yet. I'm still looking a couple more years. I also am not using an aux battery so I am probably not your best option anyway. I went ahead and ordered one from Eric Jones yesterday afternoon. Thanks for all you do for us here and I hope you have a Merry Christmas! Regards, Bill Settle -------- Bill Settle RV-8 Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451054#451054 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2015
From: Sam Marlow <sam.marlow(at)roadrunner.com>
Subject: Oscilloscope for Android Phone
Has anyone heard of or have any experience with one? I have noise in my system somewhere, that is throwing off my EFIS and A/P systems. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Oscilloscope for Android Phone
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: Dec 19, 2015
Sam, Im not exactly sure what your question is. Do you believe your phone is causing the offending noise? If so, do you have a plug-in USB charger for your phone installed in your aircraft? Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs). Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On Dec 19, 2015, at 8:35 AM, Sam Marlow wrote: Has anyone heard of or have any experience with one? I have noise in my system somewhere, that is throwing off my EFIS and A/P systems. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Low Voltage Annunciator
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Dec 19, 2015
For a simple indication of Low Voltage ( -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451056#451056 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2015
Subject: Re: Oscilloscope for Android Phone
From: Ron Springer <ron228rj(at)gmail.com>
He is talking about an app to turn a phone into an oscilloscope. I believe that requires voltage probe to look at electrical signals. Ron On Dec 19, 2015 10:28 AM, "Robert Borger" wrote: > > Sam, > > I=99m not exactly sure what your question is. > > Do you believe your phone is causing the offending noise? > > If so, do you have a plug-in USB charger for your phone installed in your > aircraft? > > Blue skies & tailwinds, > Bob Borger > Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs). > Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP > 3705 Lynchburg Dr. > Corinth, TX 76208-5331 > Cel: 817-992-1117 > rlborger(at)mac.com > > On Dec 19, 2015, at 8:35 AM, Sam Marlow wrote : > > sam.marlow(at)roadrunner.com> > > Has anyone heard of or have any experience with one? I have noise in my > system somewhere, that is throwing off my EFIS and A/P systems. > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2015
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Low Voltage Annunciator
At 08:09 AM 12/19/2015, you wrote: > >... If you would like to be the beta-test aircraft for > this product, I'll offer you one free of charge > in exchange for your user-evaluation of the installation > instructions and product performance in the selected > application. > > > Bob . . .[/quote] > >Hi Bob. > >I appreciate the offer and I would be happy to do if for you but I >am not close to flying yet. I'm still looking a couple more >years. I also am not using an aux battery so I am probably not >your best option anyway. I went ahead and ordered one from Eric >Jones yesterday afternoon. > >Thanks for all you do for us here and I hope you have a Merry Christmas! Understand. Actually, the proposed AEC9024 is FOUR products in one box. During installation, the builder sets functionality by adding jumpers between the programming pins. This design philosophy allows us to produce four products on one assembly line and inventory only one device the four offerings and even lets a builder inventory one spare part for any of the four functions. Builders may choose to use the device in any one of the four tasks. Architecture figure Z9 illustrates use of the 9024 in three of the four functions. http://tinyurl.com/5wxzn7 It will be the first AEC product loaded on the B&C product line early next year. There's about a half dozen more that will follow on the heals of the 9024. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Diagnosing Electrical Problem
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Dec 19, 2015
EDN of 23NOV1995 had an article entitled: "Assume nothing. Test everything." which was a small guide to troubleshooting philosophy (although aimed more at computers and high falutin designs but applicable to life in general). He (Jack Ganssle) taught some critical elements of troubleshooting that have helped me over the years. Allow me to share some of them them with you: 1) EVERYTHING YOU KNOW IS WRONG. I.e. Assume nothing. Is it really connected like you think? Are your measuring instrument working? Etc. To facilitate this process--> 2) Keep a notebook of what you are doing, what you suspect, random suspicions, sketches, details, notes for later improvements, hard-to-read numbers, EVERYTHING. When you review your notebook the next day, important clues will often jump out. 3) Start with an organized workbench with all tools at the ready. What are you going to need to test assumptions? 4) Ask for help. Don't be shy! Anybody can help by listening to your explanation...where the obvious might jump out.... Asking experts is how you'll learn, even if they don't have the answer. 5) Use the Internet. Hardly a day goes by without someone asking me a question and I reply (or would like to reply) "Let me Google that for you". Google has developed the ability to understand plain language questions. The value of searching the 'net cannot be overstated. And it will only get better. 6) Remember, most problems have simple answers. Think "Connectors" not Integrated Circuits. Think "Horses" not Zebras. We can all add tips to this list. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451063#451063 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Diagnosing Electrical Problem
Date: Dec 19, 2015
Charlie, Good points, . . .and, my "tool" kit had those items. Except they were left out of the plane during the annual and I had forgotten to strap the tool kit back in place. I used to carry a mag and mag parts too. Never used them, but, did help out a friend in an isolated strip. Don't carry those either. . . ;>) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 12:37 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Diagnosing Electrical Problem > > > I know it's 'after the fact', but the auto parts store probably would have > had a 12V test light & some hookup wire for cheap, or at least the wire & > a 12 V bulb. Would have made the chore of finding the problem a bit > quicker. (You'd have seen the 14V on the source side of the alt breaker, & > known that the alt was working.) > > Charlie > (shade tree troubleshooting & repair for over 50 years....) > > On 12/18/2015 12:08 PM, David Lloyd wrote: >> >> >> Joe, >> Glad you opened up this "thread". >> Odd mysteries of electrical problems come in all sizes and will never >> end. Fast little electrons running thru all sorts of mazes are bound to >> find a black hole or change at the oddest times. . . >> One of my experiences that turned out to be dead simple kept me grounded >> for 2 days in a remote airport. >> >> I landed my Cessna 185 in a farmers strip to visit one of my sons and >> family that was only 5 min's away. The flight in was normal and this >> airplanes electrical system was stable. Two days later, when I fired up >> to leave, I had no alternator output. . or, so I thought. I was there >> with only simple hand tools and no instruments to diagnose the problem. >> I could not find any wiring breaks, i.e. the field wire breaking from >> vibration, etc. So, with my pitiful few tools, I took the alternator and >> regulator off, called my son and he drove me to finally find an auto shop >> to test same. Both units tested fine. I reinstalled them and made sure >> the belt was not slipping and then, counted all the skin that I had left >> doing this in and out thing. >> I had some spare wire, so I began to do some connection jumping and found >> the problem. >> This Cessna had its original main 60 amp circuit breaker. These are the >> non-pullable style, but, they do pop out when triggered. The breaker >> outwardly appeared fine. But, when I shorted across it, the electrical >> system came alive showing charging current. How odd that the CB opened up >> but, did not trigger the pop-out indicator. Later, it was determined that >> the CB had not opened due to excessive current, but, failed anyway. >> Reason unknown. . . >> In this case, I had no options for replacing it until back at my home >> airport and I did not want to install the shorting wire. So, I removed >> the battery stayed an extra night with my son while topping off the >> battery's charge. Reinstalled the next day and flew the 3 hours home >> with the panel turned off. Only turned things back on for radio >> announcements for landing and taxi. >> If I carried my normal "kit", VOM and tools, this would have gone a lot >> quicker to diagnose. . . . >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> >> To: >> Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 7:08 AM >> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Diagnosing Electrical Problem >> >> >>> >>> >>>> Yeah, so? >>> >>> Well, it has been kind dead on this website for awhile. Thought I would >>> start a new dialog. Many electrical troubleshooters have been stumped >>> and frustrated by a problem that turned out to be something very simple. >>> Maybe some forum members would like to share their experience. >>> >>> -------- >>> Joe Gores >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451015#451015 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2015
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: EMag P113 Electronic Ignition for sale
I have a brand new P113 EMag and matching harness listed on eBay at: http://tinyurl.com/neesboj All proceeds of this sale will be added to the Matronics operations 'kitty'. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Oscilloscope for Android Phone
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 19, 2015
Look at something like this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004KKTUV6/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_2?pf_rd_p=1944687542&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t 1&pf_rd_i=B00BY8LVCS&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0XBWZ07S1VW2QD6H2E6M a purpose built o-scope is much more likely to solve you problem than an outrigger box for a phone -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451089#451089 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2015
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Auction For P113 eMag To Support Matronics List Fund
Raiser Dear Listers, Bob Nuckolls of the AeroElectric fame has generously put a new eMag P113 electronic 4-cylinder mag up for sale on EBay. Bob has pledged to donate all of the proceeds from this auction in support of this year's Matronics Fund Raiser. If you are in the market for one of these great electronic ignitions (I have two eMags on my RV-8 and love them), please bid on this one! http://www.ebay.com/itm/151920582478 Thank you in advance! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Diagnosing Electrical Problem
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 19, 2015
> 2) Keep a notebook of what you are doing, what you suspect, random suspicions, sketches, details, notes for later improvements, hard-to-read numbers, EVERYTHING. When you review your notebook the next day, important clues will often jump out. I should have followed that advice while doing industrial electrical troubleshooting (before retiring). I would take measurements without writing anything down, thinking that I would remember. But then later I could not remember what the conditions were while testing. Was that switch or that indicator light or that relay turned on or off? Then I would have to repeat the measurements. But if it was an intermittent problem, no measurements could be taken while the equipment was working properly. More time was wasted repeating tests then if I had taken the time to write notes. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451169#451169 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Low Voltage Annunciator
From: John Tipton <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com>
Date: Dec 20, 2015
For a simple indication of Low Voltage: http://www.sparkbright.co.uk/sparkright-eclipse-battery-voltage-monitor.php John Sent from my iPad ----x--O--x---- > On 19 Dec 2015, at 03:19 pm, "Eric M. Jones" wrote: > > > For a simple indication of Low Voltage ( > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451056#451056 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2015
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: 2015 List of Contributors
Dear Listers, The 2015 Matronics Email List and Forum Fund Raiser officially ended a couple of weeks ago and it's time that I published this year's List of Contributors. It is the people on this list that directly make these Email Lists and Forums possible! Their generous Contributions keep the servers and Internet connection up and running! You can still show your support this year and pick up a great gift at the same time. The Contribution Web Site is fast, easy, and secure: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 I also want to thank Andy, Bob, and George for their generous support through the supply of many great gifts this year!! These guys have some excellent products and I encourage you to visit their respective web sites: Andy Gold - The Builder's Bookstore - http://www.buildersbooks.com Bob Nucklolls - AeroElectric - http://www.aeroelectric.com George Race - Race Consulting - http://www.mrrace.com And finally, I'm proud to present The 2015 Fund Raiser List of Contributors: http://www.matronics.com/loc/2015.html Thanks again to everyone that made a Contribution this year!! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List & Forum Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 2015
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: EarthX ETX680 vs Odyssey PC680
Will the EarthX drop in to the PC680 battery box in my RV? Maybe a question for Vans.... The numbers are close - but not the same - hence the question.... Anybody done this? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Low Voltage Annunciator
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: Dec 20, 2015
Gents, FWIW, I have one of the SparkBright units in my Europa and it works great! Bought a second one to install in the Toot Im building. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs). Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On Dec 19, 2015, at 6:19 PM, John Tipton wrote: For a simple indication of Low Voltage: http://www.sparkbright.co.uk/sparkright-eclipse-battery-voltage-monitor.php John Sent from my iPad ----x--O--x---- > On 19 Dec 2015, at 03:19 pm, "Eric M. Jones" wrote: > > > For a simple indication of Low Voltage ( > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones(at)charter.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 2015
From: Bill Settle <billsettle(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: EarthX ETX680 vs Odyssey PC680
I have not done this myself, but I have read a couple first hand accounts w here guys have done it.=C2- It works, with a little work.=C2- Not as mu ch of a "Drop In" replacement as EarthX says it is.=C2- Search VAF and yo u'll see a few posts about it. Regards, Bill Settle RV-8 From: Ralph E. Capen <recapen(at)earthlink.net> To: "aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com" Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2015 11:06 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: EarthX ETX680 vs Odyssey PC680 k.net> Will the EarthX drop in to the PC680 battery box in my RV?=C2- Maybe a qu estion for Vans.... The numbers are close - but not the same - hence the question.... Anybody done this? =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - S - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: EarthX ETX680 vs Odyssey PC680
Date: Dec 20, 2015
Got my answer from the EarthX site.... According to them "if you have a 4 sided fire wall forward kit, this will not work with the ETX680". Guess if I want one of their batteries, I'm building a box to fit it as well! -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2015 11:06 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: EarthX ETX680 vs Odyssey PC680 --> Will the EarthX drop in to the PC680 battery box in my RV? Maybe a question for Vans.... The numbers are close - but not the same - hence the question.... Anybody done this? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: EarthX ETX680 vs Odyssey PC680
Date: Dec 20, 2015
Thanks =93 I=99ll look there too! From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Settle Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2015 12:01 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EarthX ETX680 vs Odyssey PC680 I have not done this myself, but I have read a couple first hand accounts where guys have done it. It works, with a little work. Not as much of a "Drop In" replacement as EarthX says it is. Search VAF and you'll see a few posts about it. Regards, Bill Settle RV-8 _____ From: Ralph E. Capen <recapen(at)earthlink.net > " > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2015 11:06 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: EarthX ETX680 vs Odyssey PC680 > Will the EarthX drop in to the PC680 battery box in my RV? Maybe a question for Vans.... The numbers are close - but not the same - hence the question.... ========================h ttp://www.matronics.com/contri=============== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: EarthX ETX680 vs Odyssey PC680
Date: Dec 20, 2015
Better news from EarthX - they sell a battery box to fit...... -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2015 12:03 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EarthX ETX680 vs Odyssey PC680 --> Got my answer from the EarthX site.... According to them "if you have a 4 sided fire wall forward kit, this will not work with the ETX680". Guess if I want one of their batteries, I'm building a box to fit it as well! -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2015 11:06 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: EarthX ETX680 vs Odyssey PC680 --> Will the EarthX drop in to the PC680 battery box in my RV? Maybe a question for Vans.... The numbers are close - but not the same - hence the question.... Anybody done this? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Oscilloscope for Android Phone
From: "jetboy" <skyjeepaviation(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 20, 2015
I have 2 apps which work moderately well, "audalyzer" and "simpleFFT" you will need to cut a headset cord or buy a connector to get the signals in there are 2 styles of connector pinout mine is Sony Ericson, the plug is trrs: tip - nc ring 1 - a 1k ohm resistor connect to sleeve ring 2 - a 1.8 k ohm resistor to sleeve plus a 10 k ohm resistor and then via a 0.1 uF capacitor to your probe sleeve - ground/shield of probe you dont really need the capacitor the purpose of the smaller resistors is to tell the phone what type of 'headset' is connected with these components, calibration is approximately reading in dBm on the audalyzer app for levels between 0 and -40 dBm there is another app "TestTone" if you want to generate a signal Ralph -------- Ralph - CH701 / 2200a Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451275#451275 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Oscilloscope for Android Phone
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 21, 2015
Hi All, Im not sure what signals Sam is looking for with his desire for an oscilloscope. There is no description of the interference with his EFIS and autopilot. Without some detailed sort of characterization of the symptoms you can't even guess what bandwidth you might need in a scope to track down the noise. Is it audio range, power inverter range, RF, etc? The android apps mentioned by Jetboy seen to be spectrum analyzers for audio range only, so far as I can tell, not oscilloscope apps. Sam: what wires are you planning to look at with a scope? Power? Digital I/O lines, analog I/O? If you are thinking about splicing a headset cord on to a avionics power line, remember that 12 V will smoke an Android. Real scopes generally have voltage divider probes and and are usually tolerant of much wider voltage ranges to start with. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451285#451285 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 2015
Subject: JPI vs. Insight
From: GLEN MATEJCEK <fly4grins(at)gmail.com>
HI All- I've a friend interested in updating his 182's panel with a graphic engine analyzer, and has narrowed his search to either a JPI 730 or 830, or an Insight G2 or G3. I haven't followed that market in many years, and was wondering if any of you folks in the field had any commentary. Thanks in advane for your thoughts- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: JPI vs. Insight
From: Bambas <karl(at)bambas.com>
Date: Dec 21, 2015
I've had a JPI 830 in a Globe Swift (6 cyl Cont O-300) for four years an it has worked flawlessly. I fly by it's %power and EGT indications. The fuel totalizer is usually within tenths of a gallon on predicting gallons required when topping off. Karl > On Dec 21, 2015, at 1:09 PM, GLEN MATEJCEK wrote: > > HI All- > > I've a friend interested in updating his 182's panel with a graphic engine analyzer, and has narrowed his search to either a JPI 730 or 830, or an Insight G2 or G3. I haven't followed that market in many years, and was wondering if any of you folks in the field had any commentary. > > Thanks in advane for your thoughts- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: JPI vs. Insight
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 21, 2015
On 12/21/2015 12:09 PM, GLEN MATEJCEK wrote: > HI All- > > I've a friend interested in updating his 182's panel with a graphic > engine analyzer, and has narrowed his search to either a JPI 730 or > 830, or an Insight G2 or G3. I haven't followed that market in many > years, and was wondering if any of you folks in the field had any > commentary. > > Thanks in advane for your thoughts- I'd never buy anything from JPI, because of their legal action against the host of these lists. They basically stole the name of a product that Matt created (Fuelscan), then used the overwhelming weight of their corporate lawyers to force his brand name off his product. I've read of others having support issues (read that 'abandonment') with a different brand that the company bought out. I'm a firm believer in keeping my money away from unscrupulous & unethical operators. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: JPI vs. Insight
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 21, 2015
Then there is this, from Matt, about JPI: http://www.matronics.com/jpi.html -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451308#451308 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 2015
Subject: Re: JPI vs. Insight
From: James Quinn <jquinn3(at)gmail.com>
You might also consider the Electronics International (EI) range of products. They also have an excellent reputation for customer support. On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 1:20 PM, Charlie England wrote: > ceengland7(at)gmail.com> > > On 12/21/2015 12:09 PM, GLEN MATEJCEK wrote: > >> HI All- >> >> I've a friend interested in updating his 182's panel with a graphic >> engine analyzer, and has narrowed his search to either a JPI 730 or 830, or >> an Insight G2 or G3. I haven't followed that market in many years, and was >> wondering if any of you folks in the field had any commentary. >> >> Thanks in advane for your thoughts- >> > I'd never buy anything from JPI, because of their legal action against the > host of these lists. They basically stole the name of a product that Matt > created (Fuelscan), then used the overwhelming weight of their corporate > lawyers to force his brand name off his product. I've read of others having > support issues (read that 'abandonment') with a different brand that the > company bought out. > > I'm a firm believer in keeping my money away from unscrupulous & unethical > operators. > > Charlie > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Low Voltage Annunciator
From: "racerjerry" <gnking2(at)verizon.net>
Date: Dec 23, 2015
I can tell you that the Eric Jones 13V Idiot Light has saved my bacon quite a few times - or at least has saved me from dangerous hand-propping by reminding me to turn the master switch OFF. For $50 you can't get a better low voltage warning indicator - no construction required. As long as you do not hardwire or permanently mount Eric's ingenious little device, it is even legal to install it on a certified aircraft. The light also has an extra wire to connect to an optional audio alarm or panel annunciator. I fabricated a mount for the low voltage warning light module from a 3/4 x 1/16 x 2 inch long aluminum angle (aircraft aisle of home stores) and Velcro mounted it to the top of my glare shield; with the light aimed directly at me but offset to the co-pilot side. The warning light is installed in My Cessna 172K and powered from the cigarette lighter receptacle; providing me with a perfectly legal (nothing permanently attached to airframe) and very valuable low voltage warning as well as alerting me should I ever forget to turn the master switch off at shutdown another warning indication that I had long desired. On later Cessnas, I believe that this second function is indirectly achieved through their over-voltage warning light; however my 1969 (& earlier) does not have an over-voltage sensor. http://periheliondesign.com/moreproductsfiles/LV_Annunciator%20Manual.pdf Please note that I have no connection to Mr. Eric M. Jones or his company www.PerihelionDesign.com other than being a very satisfied customer. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451375#451375 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 2015
From: Sam Marlow <sam.marlow(at)roadrunner.com>
Subject: Re: Oscilloscope for Android Phone
Thanks! rampil wrote: > > Look at something like this: > > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004KKTUV6/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_2?pf_rd_p=1944687542&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t 1&pf_rd_i=B00BY8LVCS&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0XBWZ07S1VW2QD6H2E6M > > a purpose built o-scope is much more likely to solve you problem than > an outrigger box for a phone > > -------- > Ira N224XS > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451089#451089 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 2015
From: Sam Marlow <sam.marlow(at)roadrunner.com>
Subject: Re: Oscilloscope for Android Phone
I tracked it down to a bad alternator, by the old, switch parts until you find it! Not ideal, but it worked...... Thanks! rampil wrote: > > Hi All, > > Im not sure what signals Sam is looking for with his desire for an > oscilloscope. There is no description of the interference with his EFIS > and autopilot. Without some detailed sort of characterization of the > symptoms you can't even guess what bandwidth you might need in a scope > to track down the noise. Is it audio range, power inverter range, RF, etc? > > The android apps mentioned by Jetboy seen to be spectrum analyzers for > audio range only, so far as I can tell, not oscilloscope apps. > > Sam: what wires are you planning to look at with a scope? Power? > Digital I/O lines, analog I/O? If you are thinking about splicing a headset > cord on to a avionics power line, remember that 12 V will smoke an Android. > Real scopes generally have voltage divider probes and and are usually > tolerant of much wider voltage ranges to start with. > > -------- > Ira N224XS > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451285#451285 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Cessna OV protection + DIODE across ALT side of Master
Swith
From: "racerjerry" <gnking2(at)verizon.net>
Date: Dec 25, 2015
On 12 volt models of Cessna 172, it appears that when the Over-Voltage Sensor was added (172 L and M models), that Cessna removed the DIODE previously found on the ALT side of the master switch [output] contact. The diode goes to ground and apparently protects the ALT side master switch contacts from arcing. I would like to install the Cessna over-voltage sensor in an earlier 172 without over-voltage protection. I do not need or desire the over-voltage warning light. I would prefer interrupting the field circuit (Cessna) over crowbar type protection for a standard externally regulated Ford type alternator. Can anyone venture a good guess as to why this diode was removed? If the diode was left installed, would it interfere with the over-voltage sensor operation? Thanks to you all, and may you all enjoy this Holiday season. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451408#451408 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cessna OV protection + DIODE across ALT side of
Master Swith
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 25, 2015
Voltage spike protection diodes are not needed if replaced with crowbar type over-voltage protection because the crowbar shorts out high voltage. But you said it was not the crowbar type. Regardless, I do not know how a reversed biased diode could interfere with any aircraft electrical circuit. If it could, someone please explain how. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451410#451410 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John MacCallum <john.maccallum(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: Cessna OV protection + DIODE across ALT side
of Master Swith
Date: Dec 26, 2015
It's a reverse Voltage spike that the Protection Diodes on relays and switches protect against not a positive spike which is what the Over Voltage Crowbar is for. The reverse Voltage Spike occurs because of current being drawn in the circuit abruptly stops when the switch or relay opens. The resulting Magnetic Field Collapse in the wiring on that circuit causes a Negative going Voltage spike that can amount to voltage well in excess of what some equipment can handle. So although I believe nearly all modern Avionics would be protected against a reverse spike it does not hurt to be careful. The Protection Diodes short to frame ground a negative going spike that can damage Avionics that are not protected with their own Suppression devices and reverse protection Diodes also help to preserve the switch contacts on switches and relays. Yours John MacCallum -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of user9253 Sent: Saturday, 26 December 2015 4:01 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Cessna OV protection + DIODE across ALT side of Master Swith Voltage spike protection diodes are not needed if replaced with crowbar type over-voltage protection because the crowbar shorts out high voltage. But you said it was not the crowbar type. Regardless, I do not know how a reversed biased diode could interfere with any aircraft electrical circuit. If it could, someone please explain how. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451410#451410 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cessna OV protection + DIODE across ALT side of
Master Swith
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 25, 2015
I had assumed that reason voltage spike protection diodes are not used to protect the ALT switch in Bob's Z diagrams is because there is crowbar over-voltage protection. But maybe the real reason for no diode is because the alternator field does not produce a voltage spike when it is shut down. Bob? Diodes should be connected across inductive loads (coils). Connecting a reversed biased diode between the load side of the ALT switch and ground should not hurt anything. A diode should be connected directly across a coil rather than some distance away. In the case of a master contactor that is controlled by a switch to ground, a diode connected from the coil to ground will be reversed biased BOTH during normal operation and while an inductive spike is produced by the collapsing magnetic field. The reason being that when current to an inductor is interrupted, the collapsing magnetic field tries to keep current flowing in the SAME direction. I agree with John that induced voltage will be seen as reversed polarity to other loads connected in parallel with the coil. Without a diode across a coil, most of the coil induced energy will be dissipated across the opening switch contacts and will shorten switch life. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451413#451413 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cessna OV protection + DIODE across ALT side of
Master Swith
From: "racerjerry" <gnking2(at)verizon.net>
Date: Dec 26, 2015
Does anyone have any info regarding the internal circuitry of the Cessna over-voltage sensor? I am wondering if this sensor's internal transistorized circuit contains the equivalent of the removed diode and therefore a separate diode is no longer needed for arc suppression at the ALT side of the master switch. Hmmm. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451414#451414 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2015
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Cessna OV protection + DIODE across ALT side
of Master Swith At 07:35 AM 12/26/2015, you wrote: > >Does anyone have any info regarding the internal circuitry of the >Cessna over-voltage sensor? I am wondering if this sensor's >internal transistorized circuit contains the equivalent of the >removed diode and therefore a separate diode is no longer needed for >arc suppression at the ALT side of the master switch. Hmmm. I proposed a latching ov sensor circuit to Cessna about 1970 with a schematic like this http://tinyurl.com/7g7mn6l I never manufactured any and was not involved in the qualification so I don't KNOW that the drawing cited above exactly matches what went into the airplanes . . . but a technician who once worked for Electro-Mech and manufactured the device after Hopkins lost the job says it's "real close." The diode is not included in any of my drawings because it is assumed that the REGULATOR already has the usual diode from F to ground. The diode was part of the original Cessna installations because the alternator switch actually controlled the field relay inside the electro-mechanical regulators http://tinyurl.com/d7ln4mt This relay was not fitted with the recommended diode. When the electro-mechanical regulators were replaced with solid state . . . the diode became part of the regulator and no longer necessary at the switch. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cessna OV protection + DIODE across ALT side of
Master Swi
From: "racerjerry" <gnking2(at)verizon.net>
Date: Dec 28, 2015
Thank you very much, Bob. That was precisely the info that I needed. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451460#451460 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 28, 2015
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Matronics fund raiser redux
I am pleased to report that the Emag ignition system sold to our own Jared Yates was the successful bidder at $712. A PayPal voucher for that amount has been forwarded to Matt. Thanks to all those who participated . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 29, 2015
Subject: Alternator and regulator connections
Happy Holidays everyone! Time for me to emerge from my lurking mode to enlist some help. I have a Kelly Aerospace ALY 8520 alternator, with two field connections. The regulator is an Echlin unit, 5 MSA 6, a locally built automotive unit with 5 wires: warn lite ign reg sense --not sure what this is for neg field. Now despite trawling the web, and being electrically challenged, I am unable to figure out how to connect this setup. Regards the warn lite...would there be 12v emanating from the regulator so that a lite with one terminal grounded would then light up? I would really appreciate some help or suggestions! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 28, 2015
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Matronics fund raiser redux
I am pleased to report that the Emag ignition system sold to our own Jared Yates was the successful bidder at $712. A PayPal voucher for that amount has been forwarded to Matt. Thanks to all those who participated . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Alternator and regulator connections
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 29, 2015
Here are some educated guesses: Reg Sense: Connect to main power bus through a fuse. Do not connect to IGN terminal. Warn Lite: Use the trial and error method. The lamp will limit the current so hopefully no harm will be done if polarity is wrong. I suggest first connecting the lamp to the main power bus through a fuse. It should light up when the engine is not running. If not, then try connecting the lamp to ground. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451465#451465 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 29, 2015
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator and regulator connections
At 10:02 AM 12/29/2015, you wrote: > >Here are some educated guesses: >Reg Sense: Connect to main power bus through a fuse. Do not connect >to IGN terminal. >Warn Lite: Use the trial and error method. The lamp will limit the >current so hopefully no harm will be done if polarity is wrong. I >suggest first connecting the lamp to the main power bus through a >fuse. It should light up when the engine is not running. If not, >then try connecting the lamp to ground. Joe has it nailed . . . With respect to TWO field terminals on alternator. Ground ONE and run the other to the F terminal on regulator. These terminals are not polarity sensitive. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 30, 2015
Subject: Re: Alternator and regulator connections
Ah, the power of Aeroelectric ! Thanks Guys, always learning! On 29 December 2015 at 22:24, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 10:02 AM 12/29/2015, you wrote: > > > Here are some educated guesses: > Reg Sense: Connect to main power bus through a fuse. Do not connect to > IGN terminal. > Warn Lite: Use the trial and error method. The lamp will limit the > current so hopefully no harm will be done if polarity is wrong. I suggest > first connecting the lamp to the main power bus through a fuse. It should > light up when the engine is not running. If not, then try connecting the > lamp to ground. > > > Joe has it nailed . . . > > With respect to TWO field terminals on > alternator. Ground ONE and run the other to > the F terminal on regulator. These terminals > are not polarity sensitive. > > > Bob . . . > -- Best... Bob Verwey ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Alternator and regulator connections
From: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 30, 2015
If the regulator is an unknown automobile unit, isn't it more likely that one field terminal should go to positive rather than ground as per most cars since the 70's. Before permanently wiring anything, I would be inclined to test whether the regulator F terminal goes to ground or positive when system voltage is low. Similar for the Light terminal as it may need the warning light bulb to positive voltage rather than ground. Ken On 29/12/2015 3:24 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 10:02 AM 12/29/2015, you wrote: >> >> Here are some educated guesses: >> Reg Sense: Connect to main power bus through a fuse. Do not connect >> to IGN terminal. >> Warn Lite: Use the trial and error method. The lamp will limit the >> current so hopefully no harm will be done if polarity is wrong. I >> suggest first connecting the lamp to the main power bus through a >> fuse. It should light up when the engine is not running. If not, >> then try connecting the lamp to ground. > > Joe has it nailed . . . > > With respect to TWO field terminals on > alternator. Ground ONE and run the other to > the F terminal on regulator. These terminals > are not polarity sensitive. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Alternator and regulator connections
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 30, 2015
This particular alternator has two field connections. One field terminal does go to positive (from the regulator). And the other one goes to negative. Polarity does not matter because an alternator produces AC voltage. So even if the polarity of the field wires is reversed, the alternator will still produce AC voltage. Six diodes rectify the 3 phase AC from the stator windings into DC. Unlike this alternator, most modern automotive alternators have the voltage regulator located inside of the alternator case. Some of these automotive alternators might have a terminal marked "F". But that terminal does not connect to an external voltage regulator because there is already one inside of the alternator case. https://alternatorparts.com/understanding-alternators.html -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451496#451496 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Alternator and regulator connections
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 30, 2015
Below is a link to a Youtube animated movie that explains how alternators work. http://tinyurl.com/Alternator-Explained -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451498#451498 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2015
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator and regulator connections
At 09:04 AM 12/30/2015, you wrote: > >Below is a link to a Youtube animated movie that explains how >alternators work. >http://tinyurl.com/Alternator-Explained This video is a little mis-leading. The final evolutionary step in alternator development shows a dc generator driving a commutator wtih power pickoff brushes driving the alternator's slip rings. I don't think anyone would build one this way because the whole idea behind the itty-bitty generator sharing a shaft with the alternator is to arrive at a totally BRUSHLESS design. A tiny alternator with a rotating power winding excited by a STATIONARY field would excite a small 3-phase rectifier on the rotating assembly and wired such that DC power output excites the ROTATING field of the main alternator. ALL brushless designs will exploit this configuration for wild frequency AC alternators, constant speed alternators or beefy versions of the legacy vehicular alternator/rectifiers machines but with no slip-rings. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fwd: Fwd: Matt Dralle (list admin)
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 31, 2015
Retrying to a single list each time; first attempt at multiple lists seems to have failed. -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Matt Dralle (list admin) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 09:10:57 -0600 From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> , kolb-list(at)matronics.com Just saw a post on the VAF forum that Matt had a stroke yesterday. The post quoted his facebook page: /Matt Update: He is responding to comments being made by squeezing Katie's hand and he was able to answer his age by using his one hand. All early indicators are that he is doing ok. Katie sends her thanks for the prayers and that they are definitely helping. / Please keep him in your thoughts and prayers, and remember that he won't be able to deal with list maintenance issues for some time. I'm trying to send this to the RV, aeroelectric, and kolb lists. If you're a member of additional lists, it might be good to pass it on. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Roger <rnjcurtis(at)charter.net>
Subject: Matt
Date: Dec 31, 2015
Our thoughts and prayers are with you Matt, for a speedy and complete recov ery. Roger Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 31, 2015
Subject: Re: Alternator and regulator connections
Guys thanks for all the replies! So I connected everything as postulated by Joe and Bob, and I am seeing 14.2 volts on the Bus, which I believe to be correct. The only thing is that the warn lite connection shows +12v when the master is turned on, and it does not extinguish when the voltage stabilizes and the amp meter is showing a good charge. Any more ideas? Happy New Year, one and all! On 30 December 2015 at 23:22, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 09:04 AM 12/30/2015, you wrote: > > > Below is a link to a Youtube animated movie that explains how alternators > work. > http://tinyurl.com/Alternator-Explained > > > This video is a little mis-leading. The final > evolutionary step in alternator development > shows a dc generator driving a commutator wtih > power pickoff brushes driving the alternator's > slip rings. > > I don't think anyone would build one this way > because the whole idea behind the itty-bitty > generator sharing a shaft with the alternator > is to arrive at a totally BRUSHLESS design. > > A tiny alternator with a rotating power winding > excited by a STATIONARY field would excite a small > 3-phase rectifier on the rotating assembly and > wired such that DC power output excites the > ROTATING field of the main alternator. ALL > brushless designs will exploit this configuration > for wild frequency AC alternators, constant > speed alternators or beefy versions of the > legacy vehicular alternator/rectifiers > machines but with no slip-rings. > > > Bob . . . > -- Best... Bob Verwey ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2015
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator and regulator connections
At 10:17 AM 12/31/2015, you wrote: >Guys thanks for all the replies! >So I connected everything as postulated by Joe and Bob, and I am >seeing 14.2 volts on the Bus, which I believe to be correct. > >The only thing is that the warn lite connection shows +12v when the >master is turned on, and it does not extinguish when the voltage >stabilizes and the amp meter is showing a good charge. As a general rule, alternator failure lights built into regulators are of limited value and should never take the place of ACTIVE NOTIFICATION of low bus voltage. I presume you have this function in place with other hardware. I never hook up the built-in lights. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 01, 2016
Subject: Re: Alternator and regulator connections
Bob thanks, I have the EFIS alarm so will ignore the warning lite connection. On 31 December 2015 at 21:51, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 10:17 AM 12/31/2015, you wrote: > > Guys thanks for all the replies! > So I connected everything as postulated by Joe and Bob, and I am seeing > 14.2 volts on the Bus, which I believe to be correct. > > The only thing is that the warn lite connection shows +12v when the master > is turned on, and it does not extinguish when the voltage stabilizes and > the amp meter is showing a good charge. > > > As a general rule, alternator failure lights > built into regulators are of limited value > and should never take the place of ACTIVE > NOTIFICATION of low bus voltage. I presume > you have this function in place with > other hardware. I never hook up the built-in > lights. > > > Bob . . . > -- Best... Bob Verwey ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Switch question
At 11:47 AM 1/3/2016, you wrote: >Bob, > I am looking to use the switch that you show in your book, > labeled 2-10. I have searched for such a switch that I can obtain > locally, but have not had any success using the S700-2-10 > nomenclature. I believe that you reference Carling switches, but > have not found one in their catalog. Would you have another number > that would reference this switch? Thanks. The S700 series switches are a catalog number first assigned by the AeroElectric Connection and later adopted by B&C Specialty Products. These catalog numbers defined a functionality in a standard bat-handled, 15/32" mounted toggle switch. This allowed us to offer switches from a variety of sources under one part number . . . a number you will not find cited 'in the wild'. The 2-10 suffix describes the two pole, three position, progressive transfer switch as and on-on-on function. You can order that switch from B&C as the S700-2-10 or seek out its equivalent based on functional description from a host of suppliers . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 04, 2016
Subject: Re: Alternator and regulator connections
What is the function of the AUX connection? On 1 January 2016 at 09:09, Bob Verwey wrote: > Bob thanks, > I have the EFIS alarm so will ignore the warning lite connection. > > > On 31 December 2015 at 21:51, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > >> At 10:17 AM 12/31/2015, you wrote: >> >> Guys thanks for all the replies! >> So I connected everything as postulated by Joe and Bob, and I am seeing >> 14.2 volts on the Bus, which I believe to be correct. >> >> The only thing is that the warn lite connection shows +12v when the >> master is turned on, and it does not extinguish when the voltage stabilizes >> and the amp meter is showing a good charge. >> >> >> As a general rule, alternator failure lights >> built into regulators are of limited value >> and should never take the place of ACTIVE >> NOTIFICATION of low bus voltage. I presume >> you have this function in place with >> other hardware. I never hook up the built-in >> lights. >> >> >> Bob . . . >> > > > -- > Best... > Bob Verwey > > -- Best... Bob Verwey ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 04, 2016
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01/03/16
From: Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330(at)gmail.com>
I am new to the forum. Is this where I can ask a question? Mike L. On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 2:59 AM, AeroElectric-List Digest Server < aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com> wrote: > * > > ================================================= > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================= > > Today's complete AeroElectric-List Digest can also be found in either of > the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the AeroElectric-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text > editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 16-01-03&Archive=AeroElectric > > Text Version: > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 16-01-03&Archive=AeroElectric > > > =============================================== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > =============================================== > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > AeroElectric-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Sun 01/03/16: 2 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 11:53 AM - Re: Switch question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) > 2. 11:30 PM - Re: Re: Alternator and regulator connections (Bob > Verwey) > > > ________________________________ Message 1 > _____________________________________ > > > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch question > > At 11:47 AM 1/3/2016, you wrote: > >Bob, > > I am looking to use the switch that you show in your book, > > labeled 2-10. I have searched for such a switch that I can obtain > > locally, but have not had any success using the S700-2-10 > > nomenclature. I believe that you reference Carling switches, but > > have not found one in their catalog. Would you have another number > > that would reference this switch? Thanks. > > The S700 series switches are a catalog number > first assigned by the AeroElectric Connection > and later adopted by B&C Specialty Products. > These catalog numbers defined a functionality > in a standard bat-handled, 15/32" mounted toggle > switch. This allowed us to offer switches from > a variety of sources under one part number . . . > a number you will not find cited 'in the wild'. > > The 2-10 suffix describes the two pole, three > position, progressive transfer switch as and > on-on-on function. You can order that switch > from B&C as the S700-2-10 or seek out its > equivalent based on functional description > from a host of suppliers . . . > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 2 > _____________________________________ > > > From: Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator and regulator connections > > What is the function of the AUX connection? > > On 1 January 2016 at 09:09, Bob Verwey wrote: > > > Bob thanks, > > I have the EFIS alarm so will ignore the warning lite connection. > > > > > > On 31 December 2015 at 21:51, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < > > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > > >> At 10:17 AM 12/31/2015, you wrote: > >> > >> Guys thanks for all the replies! > >> So I connected everything as postulated by Joe and Bob, and I am seeing > >> 14.2 volts on the Bus, which I believe to be correct. > >> > >> The only thing is that the warn lite connection shows +12v when the > >> master is turned on, and it does not extinguish when the voltage > stabilizes > >> and the amp meter is showing a good charge. > >> > >> > >> As a general rule, alternator failure lights > >> built into regulators are of limited value > >> and should never take the place of ACTIVE > >> NOTIFICATION of low bus voltage. I presume > >> you have this function in place with > >> other hardware. I never hook up the built-in > >> lights. > >> > >> > >> Bob . . . > >> > > > > > > -- > > Best... > > Bob Verwey > > > > > > > -- > Best... > Bob Verwey > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 04, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01/03/16
At 08:09 AM 1/4/2016, you wrote: >I am new to the forum.=C2 Is this where I can ask a question? Right here . . . you appear to have subscribed to the digest version (bulk messages) . . . trim away any text not-relevant to your particular interest. Welcome aboard! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01/03/16
Date: Jan 04, 2016
Welcome Mike! You can ask a question right here. Just reply to this email, or create a new email and send it to: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Justin > On Jan 4, 2016, at 05:09, Michael Lazarowicz wrote: > > I am new to the forum. Is this where I can ask a question? > > Mike L. > >> On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 2:59 AM, AeroElectric-List Digest Server wrote: >> * >> >> ======================== >> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive >> ======================== >> >> Today's complete AeroElectric-List Digest can also be found in either of t he >> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted >> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes >> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version >> of the AeroElectric-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text edi tor >> such as Notepad or with a web browser. >> >> HTML Version: >> >> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=h tml&Chapter 16-01-03&Archive=AeroElectric >> >> Text Version: >> >> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=t xt&Chapter 16-01-03&Archive=AeroElectric >> >> >> ====================== >> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive >> ====================== >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> AeroElectric-List Digest Archive >> --- >> Total Messages Posted Sun 01/03/16: 2 >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> Today's Message Index: >> ---------------------- >> >> 1. 11:53 AM - Re: Switch question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) >> 2. 11:30 PM - Re: Re: Alternator and regulator connections (Bob Ver wey) >> >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 1 ____________________________ _________ >> >> >> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> >> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch question >> >> At 11:47 AM 1/3/2016, you wrote: >> >Bob, >> > I am looking to use the switch that you show in your book, >> > labeled 2-10. I have searched for such a switch that I can obtain >> > locally, but have not had any success using the S700-2-10 >> > nomenclature. I believe that you reference Carling switches, but >> > have not found one in their catalog. Would you have another number >> > that would reference this switch? Thanks. >> >> The S700 series switches are a catalog number >> first assigned by the AeroElectric Connection >> and later adopted by B&C Specialty Products. >> These catalog numbers defined a functionality >> in a standard bat-handled, 15/32" mounted toggle >> switch. This allowed us to offer switches from >> a variety of sources under one part number . . . >> a number you will not find cited 'in the wild'. >> >> The 2-10 suffix describes the two pole, three >> position, progressive transfer switch as and >> on-on-on function. You can order that switch >> from B&C as the S700-2-10 or seek out its >> equivalent based on functional description >> from a host of suppliers . . . >> >> >> Bob . . . >> >> ________________________________ Message 2 ____________________________ _________ >> >> >> From: Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com> >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator and regulator connections >> >> What is the function of the AUX connection? >> >> On 1 January 2016 at 09:09, Bob Verwey wrote: >> >> > Bob thanks, >> > I have the EFIS alarm so will ignore the warning lite connection. >> > >> > >> > On 31 December 2015 at 21:51, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < >> > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: >> > >> >> At 10:17 AM 12/31/2015, you wrote: >> >> >> >> Guys thanks for all the replies! >> >> So I connected everything as postulated by Joe and Bob, and I am seein g >> >> 14.2 volts on the Bus, which I believe to be correct. >> >> >> >> The only thing is that the warn lite connection shows +12v when the >> >> master is turned on, and it does not extinguish when the voltage stabi lizes >> >> and the amp meter is showing a good charge. >> >> >> >> >> >> As a general rule, alternator failure lights >> >> built into regulators are of limited value >> >> and should never take the place of ACTIVE >> >> NOTIFICATION of low bus voltage. I presume >> >> you have this function in place with >> >> other hardware. I never hook up the built-in >> >> lights. >> >> >> >> >> >> Bob . . . >> >> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Best... >> > Bob Verwey >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> Best... >> Bob Verwey >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> br> fts!) >> r> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.builde rsbooks.com >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> ========== >> - >> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ========== >> FORUMS - >> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n >> ========== > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01/03/16
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 04, 2016
On 1/4/2016 8:09 AM, Michael Lazarowicz wrote: > I am new to the forum. Is this where I can ask a question? > > Mike L. > Hi Mike; welcome! This is the place; ask away. Only suggestion would be that if you're getting 'digest' mode, try to strip out all the non-relevant stuff in your reply. Otherwise, you might be sending several pages of useless stuff. What's your question? Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01/03/16
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 04, 2016
I like to go here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=3 Then click on "New Topic". Or Click on someone else's post, then click on "PostReply". -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451728#451728 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 06, 2016
Subject: Grounding Tabs
From: Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330(at)gmail.com>
I am currently wiring my RV8. I plan on using a "forest of Tabs" for almost all of my grounding, Avionics, EFIS, Lights, Pumps flaps etc. Because of the location of the forward baggage compartment on the RV8, it is not really practical have the tabs on the firewall. I have a forward battery and have a brass bolt connecting the Neg. lead and engine grounding strap to the firewall. What I plan to do is run a #6 cable from there to the "forest of tabs" mounted on the bulkhead behind the instrument panel. I plan to insulate the brass plate and tabs form the bulkhead so all the grounding will go directly to the brass bolt in the firewall. This way there is a true single point grounding. It also makes for a nice clean instillation. I have read the Aero Electric book several times and will probably never fully understand ground loops. So here are my questions. 1. since my main power to the inside of the plane is a #6 cable I figure the ground wire need not be bigger than a #6 between the firewall brass bolt and the ground tabs. Does this make sense? 2. It may sound stupid , but is there any reason to to ground everything like pitot heat, fuel pumps and flaps to that singe point with all the avionics etc. ? 3. I have tried very hard to not mix any "fat wires" with skinny wires. The only exceptions being the main battery cable , the mag wires, alt. field B wire , battery relay and start wire all come thru the firewall together . They pass thru a conduit in the baggage compartment so they can get behind the panel. Is this OK? 4. Is there any reason that the main power cable #6 and many of the power leads going to the circuit breaker panel cannot cross each other at a 90 deg. ? All help is appreciated ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 06, 2016
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Grounding Tabs
I ran as much as I could to the forest of tabs....if there's a grounding issue, I know where to look for the broken wire..... Also, I am hopefully preventing ground loops - and energizing the skin..... YMMV -----Original Message----- From: Michael Lazarowicz Sent: Jan 6, 2016 1:03 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Grounding Tabs I am currently wiring my RV8. I plan on using a "forest of Tabs" for almost all of my grounding, Avionics, EFIS, Lights, Pumps flaps etc. Because of the location of the forward baggage compartment on the RV8, it is not really practical have the tabs on the firewall. I have a forward battery and have a brass bolt connecting the Neg. lead and engine grounding strap to the firewall. What I plan to do is run a #6 cable from there to the "forest of tabs" mounted on the bulkhead behind the instrument panel. I plan to insulate the brass plate and tabs form the bulkhead so all the grounding will go directly to the brass bolt in the firewall. This way there is a true single point grounding. It also makes for a nice clean instillation. I have read the Aero Electric book several times and will probably never fully understand ground loops. So here are my questions. 1. since my main power to the inside of the plane is a #6 cable I figure the ground wire need not be bigger than a #6 between the firewall brass bolt and the ground tabs. Does this make sense? 2. It may sound stupid , but is there any reason to to ground everything like pitot heat, fuel pumps and flaps to that singe point with all the avionics etc. ? 3. I have tried very hard to not mix any "fat wires" with skinny wires. The only exceptions being the main battery cable , the mag wires, alt. field B wire , battery relay and start wire all come thru the firewall together . They pass thru a conduit in the baggage compartment so they can get behind the panel. Is this OK? 4. Is there any reason that the main power cable #6 and many of the power leads going to the circuit breaker panel cannot cross each other at a 90 deg. ? All help is appreciated ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Valovich, Paul" <pvalovich(at)dcscorp.com>
Subject: Re: Grounding Tabs
Date: Jan 07, 2016
In my RV-8A I used the forward baggage bin for fuze and grounding blocks. S till had the shelf for baggage. I connected two ground tabs blocks - one af t and one forward of the firewall, then connected that via welding cable to the engine. Rather than run relatively big wires back through the cockpit, I used local grounds for pitot heat, flaps and strobes. Paul Valovich N192NM 650+ hrs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 07, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Grounding Tabs
At 12:03 PM 1/6/2016, you wrote: >I am=C2 currently wiring my RV8.=C2 I plan on >using a "forest of Tabs" for almost all of my >grounding, Avionics, EFIS, Lights, Pumps flaps >etc.=C2 Because of the location of the forward >baggage compartment on the RV8,=C2 it is not >really practical have the tabs on the firewall. >I have a forward battery and have a brass bolt >connecting the Neg. lead and engine grounding >strap to the firewall.=C2 What I plan to do is >run a #6 cable from there to the "forest of >tabs" mounted on the bulkhead behind the >instrument panel.=C2 I plan to insulate the brass >plate and tabs form the bulkhead so all the >grounding will go directly to the brass bolt in >the firewall.=C2 This way there is a true single >point grounding.=C2 It also makes for a nice >clean instillation.=C2 I have read the Aero >Electric book several times and will probably >never fully understand ground loops.=C2 So here are my questions. Study Figure z-15 of the 'Connection" at http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z15K1.pdf and . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z15K3p1.pdf Then see if your questions are answered or in need of adjustment . . . Generally speaking, PANEL and AIRFRAME systems congregate at their own central locations. They get tied together with a single conductor of appropriate size and integrity. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 07, 2016
Subject: Re: Grounding Tabs
From: Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330(at)gmail.com>
I think my question may be in need of adjustment. I pretty much get the do not s of grounding the headphones locally. But my question still is If I need to move the forest of tabs off the firewall by way of a large gauge wire because I really can't or do not like running all my no avionics stuff like cockpit lights, fuel pumps, panned lights to a local ground. Does it make sense to use the same gauge wire (in this case #6) to relocate the forest of tabs away from the firewall. My engine and battery are connected to the firewall with the 5/16 brass bolt. The 6 gauge wire to the grounding tabs are also connected to the same brass firewall bolt. I will have a few grounds locally lights etc. but really like the single point Idea. Because of the G3x system engine sensor ho0kup there is virtually nothing to ground on the firewall side. I am pretty much a dummy on this stuff and was given your book from my life long friend who runs Central States Ass. Terry, Schubert. If It was a Canard EZ I would be in great shape. Unfortunately since I am building a "span can" its different. On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 8:26 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 12:03 PM 1/6/2016, you wrote: > > I am=C3=82 currently wiring my RV8.=C3=82 I plan on using a "forest of Tabs" for > almost all of my grounding, Avionics, EFIS, Lights, Pumps flaps etc.=C3 =82 > Because of the location of the forward baggage compartment on the RV8,=C3 =82 it > is not really practical have the tabs on the firewall. I have a forward > battery and have a brass bolt connecting the Neg. lead and engine groundi ng > strap to the firewall.=C3=82 What I plan to do is run a #6 cable from th ere to > the "forest of tabs" mounted on the bulkhead behind the instrument panel. =C3=82 > I plan to insulate the brass plate and tabs form the bulkhead so all the > grounding will go directly to the brass bolt in the firewall.=C3=82 This way > there is a true single point grounding.=C3=82 It also makes for a nice c lean > instillation.=C3=82 I have read the Aero Electric book several times and will > probably never fully understand ground loops.=C3=82 So here are my quest ions. > > > Study Figure z-15 of the 'Connection" at > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z15K1.pdf > > and . . . > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z15K3p1.pdf > > > Then see if your questions are answered or in need of > adjustment . . . > > Generally speaking, PANEL and AIRFRAME systems congregate > at their own central locations. They get tied together with > a single conductor of appropriate size and integrity. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Grounding Tabs
Date: Jan 07, 2016
I did what I believe you are proposing. There will be a lot of ground wires to terminate. I filled two forest of tabs. One on the firewall with the pass-through bolt for the battery neg to connect to. The other just behind the instrument panel with a #6 wire joining them for good measure (and a little extra weight :) ). Bevan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Lazarowicz Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 6:03 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding Tabs I think my question may be in need of adjustment. I pretty much get the do not s of grounding the headphones locally. But my question still is If I need to move the forest of tabs off the firewall by way of a large gauge wire because I really can't or do not like running all my no avionics stuff like cockpit lights, fuel pumps, panned lights to a local ground. Does it make sense to use the same gauge wire (in this case #6) to relocate the forest of tabs away from the firewall. My engine and battery are connected to the firewall with the 5/16 brass bolt. The 6 gauge wire to the grounding tabs are also connected to the same brass firewall bolt. I will have a few grounds locally lights etc. but really like the single point Idea. Because of the G3x system engine sensor ho0kup there is virtually nothing to ground on the firewall side. I am pretty much a dummy on this stuff and was given your book from my life long friend who runs Central States Ass. Terry, Schubert. If It was a Canard EZ I would be in great shape. Unfortunately since I am building a "span can" its different. On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 8:26 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: At 12:03 PM 1/6/2016, you wrote: I am=C2 currently wiring my RV8.=C2 I plan on using a "forest of Tabs" for almost all of my grounding, Avionics, EFIS, Lights, Pumps flaps etc.=C2 Because of the location of the forward baggage compartment on the RV8,=C2 it is not really practical have the tabs on the firewall. I have a forward battery and have a brass bolt connecting the Neg. lead and engine grounding strap to the firewall.=C2 What I plan to do is run a #6 cable from there to the "forest of tabs" mounted on the bulkhead behind the instrument panel.=C2 I plan to insulate the brass plate and tabs form the bulkhead so all the grounding will go directly to the brass bolt in the firewall.=C2 This way there is a true single point grounding.=C2 It also makes for a nice clean instillation.=C2 I have read the Aero Electric book several times and will probably never fully understand ground loops.=C2 So here are my questions. Study Figure z-15 of the 'Connection" at http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z15K1.pdf and . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z15K3p1.pdf Then see if your questions are answered or in need of adjustment . . . Generally speaking, PANEL and AIRFRAME systems congregate at their own central locations. They get tied together with a single conductor of appropriate size and integrity. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: Grounding Tabs
Date: Jan 07, 2016
I forgot to mention, that this has been working very well with no strange electrical noises in the headsets when strobes, flap motors etc are turned on. So I'm a very happy camper. Bevan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Lazarowicz Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 6:03 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding Tabs I think my question may be in need of adjustment. I pretty much get the do not s of grounding the headphones locally. But my question still is If I need to move the forest of tabs off the firewall by way of a large gauge wire because I really can't or do not like running all my no avionics stuff like cockpit lights, fuel pumps, panned lights to a local ground. Does it make sense to use the same gauge wire (in this case #6) to relocate the forest of tabs away from the firewall. My engine and battery are connected to the firewall with the 5/16 brass bolt. The 6 gauge wire to the grounding tabs are also connected to the same brass firewall bolt. I will have a few grounds locally lights etc. but really like the single point Idea. Because of the G3x system engine sensor ho0kup there is virtually nothing to ground on the firewall side. I am pretty much a dummy on this stuff and was given your book from my life long friend who runs Central States Ass. Terry, Schubert. If It was a Canard EZ I would be in great shape. Unfortunately since I am building a "span can" its different. On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 8:26 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: At 12:03 PM 1/6/2016, you wrote: I am=C2 currently wiring my RV8.=C2 I plan on using a "forest of Tabs" for almost all of my grounding, Avionics, EFIS, Lights, Pumps flaps etc.=C2 Because of the location of the forward baggage compartment on the RV8,=C2 it is not really practical have the tabs on the firewall. I have a forward battery and have a brass bolt connecting the Neg. lead and engine grounding strap to the firewall.=C2 What I plan to do is run a #6 cable from there to the "forest of tabs" mounted on the bulkhead behind the instrument panel.=C2 I plan to insulate the brass plate and tabs form the bulkhead so all the grounding will go directly to the brass bolt in the firewall.=C2 This way there is a true single point grounding.=C2 It also makes for a nice clean instillation.=C2 I have read the Aero Electric book several times and will probably never fully understand ground loops.=C2 So here are my questions. Study Figure z-15 of the 'Connection" at http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z15K1.pdf and . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z15K3p1.pdf Then see if your questions are answered or in need of adjustment . . . Generally speaking, PANEL and AIRFRAME systems congregate at their own central locations. They get tied together with a single conductor of appropriate size and integrity. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 09, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Grounding Tabs
At 08:03 PM 1/7/2016, you wrote: >I think my question may be in need of >adjustment.=C2 I pretty much get the do not s of >grounding the headphones locally.=C2 But my >question still is If=C2 I need to move the forest >of tabs off the firewall by way of a large gauge >wire because I really can't or do not like >running all my no avionics stuff like cockpit >lights,=C2 fuel pumps, panned lights to a local >ground. Does it make sense to use the same gauge >wire=C2 (in this case #6) to relocate the forest >of tabs away from the firewall.=C2 =C2 My engine >and battery are connected to the firewall with >the 5/16 brass bolt.=C2 The 6 gauge wire to the >grounding tabs are also connected to the same >brass firewall bolt.=C2 I will have a few grounds >locally lights etc. but really like the single >point Idea.=C2 Because of the G3x system engine >sensor ho0kup=C2 there is virtually nothing to ground on the firewall side. > >I am pretty much a dummy on this stuff and was >given your book from my life long friend who >runs Central States Ass. Terry, Schubert.=C2 If >It was a Canard EZ I would be in great >shape.=C2 Unfortunately since I am building a "span can" its different. =C2 =C2 The only time you run wire between grounding features for the purpose of achieving a common ground is when only one of those features is fastened to the airframe. As Figures Z-15 shows, the ideal location for the forest of tabs is on the firewall where battery(-) and engine crankcase come to a single point airframe airframe ground. Panel avionics ground need not all run to that point as individual conductors. You gather those wires together locally on the panel with an avionics grounding feature and then extend that feature to the firewall ground with a robust conductor . . . 10 or 12 awg is suggested. So it sounds like you don't even need a forest of tabs at the firewall . . . just the ground stud to handle battery and crankcase grounds. Then use the smaller, more compact grounding hardware to gather up avionics and bring them to that same stud. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Bear <beartrax(at)mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Grounding Tabs
Date: Jan 09, 2016
Bob, When another =93grounding bus=94 is used, like an avionics ground bus or a =93panel=94 ground bus, is it necessary to isolate/insolate that ground bus from the =93local=94 ground, or other metal frame on the aircraft, before it is connected to the common firewall ground? It seems to me that you should do that to eliminate other possibilities of ground loops. Bill Bear On Jan 9, 2016, at 5:41, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 08:03 PM 1/7/2016, you wrote: >> I think my question may be in need of adjustment.=C2 I pretty much get the do not s of grounding the headphones locally.=C2 But my question still is If=C2 I need to move the forest of tabs off the firewall by way of a large gauge wire because I really can't or do not like running all my no avionics stuff like cockpit lights,=C2 fuel pumps, panned lights to a local ground. Does it make sense to use the same gauge wire=C2 (in this case #6) to relocate the forest of tabs away from the firewall.=C2 =C2 My engine and battery are connected to the firewall with the 5/16 brass bolt.=C2 The 6 gauge wire to the grounding tabs are also connected to the same brass firewall bolt.=C2 I will have a few grounds locally lights etc. but really like the single point Idea.=C2 Because of the G3x system engine sensor ho0kup=C2 there is virtually nothing to ground on the firewall side. >> >> I am pretty much a dummy on this stuff and was given your book from my life long friend who runs Central States Ass. Terry, Schubert.=C2 If It was a Canard EZ I would be in great shape.=C2 Unfortunately since I am building a "span can" its different. =C2 =C2 > > The only time you run wire between grounding features for > the purpose of achieving a common ground is when only > one of those features is fastened to the airframe. As > Figures Z-15 shows, the ideal location for the forest > of tabs is on the firewall where battery(-) and engine > crankcase come to a single point airframe airframe ground. > > Panel avionics ground need not all run to that point > as individual conductors. You gather those wires together > locally on the panel with an avionics grounding feature > and then extend that feature to the firewall ground > with a robust conductor . . . 10 or 12 awg is > suggested. > > So it sounds like you don't even need a forest of > tabs at the firewall . . . just the ground stud > to handle battery and crankcase grounds. Then > use the smaller, more compact grounding hardware > to gather up avionics and bring them to that same > stud. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 09, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Grounding Tabs
At 02:28 PM 1/9/2016, you wrote: >Bob, > >When another "grounding bus" is used, like an avionics ground bus or >a "panel" ground bus, is it necessary to isolate/insolate that >ground bus from the "local" ground, or other metal frame on the >aircraft, before it is connected to the common firewall ground? It >seems to me that you should do that to eliminate other possibilities >of ground loops. I'm going to clarify Z-15 in next revision . . . you're correct that running a ground from panel ground to firewall ground is redundant in a metal airplane. It doesn't hurt anything as long as all the potential victims (avionics and instruments) ground at the single point panel ground. No potentially antagonist loops are created by adding a wire to the firewall . . . it's just redundant. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "H. Marvin Haught" <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net>
Subject: Re: Grounding Tabs
Date: Jan 09, 2016
Bob - I think you answered only half the question. Is it better to isolate the grounding buss, and run a dedicated ground back to the firewall ground, or mount the ground buss to the airframe, and not run a wire back to to the firewall ground? In a metal airplane. Are you more apt to have possible ground loops if you mount the buss to the airframe than you would isolating it from the airframe and running the ground wire back to the firewall ground? M. Haught > On Jan 9, 2016, at 3:14 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 02:28 PM 1/9/2016, you wrote: >> Bob, >> >> When another =C2=93grounding bus=C2=94 is used, like an avionics ground bus or a =C2=93panel=C2=94 ground bus, is it necessary to isolate/isolate that ground bus from the =C2=93local=C2=94 ground, or other metal frame on the aircraft, before it is connected to the common firewall ground? It seems to me that you should do that to eliminate other possibilities of ground loops. > > I'm going to clarify Z-15 in next revision . . . > you're correct that running a ground from > panel ground to firewall ground is redundant in a metal > airplane. It doesn't hurt anything as long as all > the potential victims (avionics and instruments) > ground at the single point panel ground. No > potentially antagonist loops are created by adding > a wire to the firewall . . . it's just redundant. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Trent Heidtke" <theidtke(at)cox.net>
Subject: Grounding Tabs
Date: Jan 10, 2016
Marvin, You might find a good explanation and tips in the Wiring For Smart People document included as a link here. http://www.meyette.us/aircraft_wiring12july2008.pdf I found it very useful when wiring my plane. If I did it/read it right, the answer to your question is to isolate the grounding buss and take a lead back to the main battery and/or battery buss. Just my two cents.. Trent From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of H. Marvin Haught Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2016 2:57 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding Tabs Bob - I think you answered only half the question. Is it better to isolate the grounding buss, and run a dedicated ground back to the firewall ground, or mount the ground buss to the airframe, and not run a wire back to to the firewall ground? In a metal airplane. Are you more apt to have possible ground loops if you mount the buss to the airframe than you would isolating it from the airframe and running the ground wire back to the firewall ground? M. Haught On Jan 9, 2016, at 3:14 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: At 02:28 PM 1/9/2016, you wrote: Bob, When another =9Cgrounding bus=9D is used, like an avionics ground bus or a =9Cpanel=9D ground bus, is it necessary to isolate/isolate that ground bus from the =9Clocal=9D ground, or other metal frame on the aircraft, before it is connected to the common firewall ground? It seems to me that you should do that to eliminate other possibilities of ground loops. I'm going to clarify Z-15 in next revision . . . you're correct that running a ground from panel ground to firewall ground is redundant in a metal airplane. It doesn't hurt anything as long as all the potential victims (avionics and instruments) ground at the single point panel ground. No potentially antagonist loops are created by adding a wire to the firewall . . . it's just redundant. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Grounding Tabs
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 10, 2016
There's probably some useful info there, but keep your salt shaker handy. Charlie On 1/10/2016 9:03 AM, Trent Heidtke wrote: > > Marvin, > > You might find a good explanation and tips in the Wiring For Smart > People document included as a link here. > http://www.meyette.us/aircraft_wiring12july2008.pdf > > I found it very useful when wiring my plane. If I did it/read it > right, the answer to your question is to isolate the grounding buss > and take a lead back to the main battery and/or battery buss. > > Just my two cents.. > > Trent > > *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *H. Marvin Haught > *Sent:* Saturday, January 09, 2016 2:57 PM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding Tabs > > Bob - I think you answered only half the question. Is it better to > isolate the grounding buss, and run a dedicated ground back to the > firewall ground, or mount the ground buss to the airframe, and not run > a wire back to to the firewall ground? In a metal airplane. Are you > more apt to have possible ground loops if you mount the buss to the > airframe than you would isolating it from the airframe and running the > ground wire back to the firewall ground? > > M. Haught > > On Jan 9, 2016, at 3:14 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III > > wrote: > > At 02:28 PM 1/9/2016, you wrote: > > Bob, > > When another grounding bus is used, like an avionics ground bus > or a panel ground bus, is it necessary to isolate/isolate that > ground bus from the local ground, or other metal frame on the > aircraft, before it is connected to the common firewall ground? > It seems to me that you should do that to eliminate other > possibilities of ground loops. > > > I'm going to clarify Z-15 in next revision . . . > you're correct that running a ground from > panel ground to firewall ground is redundant in a metal > airplane. It doesn't hurt anything as long as all > the potential victims (avionics and instruments) > ground at the single point panel ground. No > potentially antagonist loops are created by adding > a wire to the firewall . . . it's just redundant. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Grounding Tabs
Date: Jan 10, 2016
I think the can of worms was just reopened. There is some correct information in this document but there is a whole lot o f opinions. The document was written by Greg from the now-defunct Blue Mount ain Avionics. Bob has attempted to have an open discussion on some of the points that Greg has attempted to make, but from what I recall, Greg wasn't interested in th e discussion for one reason or another. I will let Bob elaborate. Just a few rhetorical questions about some of the points he made.... Why wou ld you want two batteries (or one 24v) and not two alternators? What if the b elt driving the alternator breaks or the bearing in the alternator causes it to fail? Or the alternator fails? Or the regulator fails... With an electri cally dependent engine, hack the clock as your airborne time is now limited. With a second alternator (perhaps driven from the vacuum pad) you now have a non-event and lower risk of an impending engine failure due to running out o f stored electrons. There are many more issues with the document that I won't go into, however s ome of the information is factually correct. Be careful out there. The Internet is full of potentially bad information. Justin > On Jan 10, 2016, at 07:03, Trent Heidtke wrote: > > Marvin, > You might find a good explanation and tips in the Wiring For Smart People d ocument included as a link here. http://www.meyette.us/aircraft_wiring12ju ly2008.pdf > I found it very useful when wiring my plane. If I did it/read it right, t he answer to your question is to isolate the grounding buss and take a lead b ack to the main battery and/or battery buss. > Just my two cents.. > Trent > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelect ric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of H. Marvin Haught > Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2016 2:57 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding Tabs > > Bob - I think you answered only half the question. Is it better to isola te the grounding buss, and run a dedicated ground back to the firewall groun d, or mount the ground buss to the airframe, and not run a wire back to to t he firewall ground? In a metal airplane. Are you more apt to have possible ground loops if you mount the buss to the airframe than you would isolating it from the airframe and running the ground wire back to the firewall groun d? > > M. Haught > > > On Jan 9, 2016, at 3:14 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelec tric.com> wrote: > > At 02:28 PM 1/9/2016, you wrote: > > Bob, > > When another =C2=93grounding bus=C2=94 is used, like an avionics ground bu s or a =C2=93panel=C2=94 ground bus, is it necessary to isolate/isolate that ground bus from the =C2=93local=C2=94 ground, or other metal frame on the a ircraft, before it is connected to the common firewall ground? It seems to m e that you should do that to eliminate other possibilities of ground loops. > > I'm going to clarify Z-15 in next revision . . . > you're correct that running a ground from > panel ground to firewall ground is redundant in a metal > airplane. It doesn't hurt anything as long as all > the potential victims (avionics and instruments) > ground at the single point panel ground. No > potentially antagonist loops are created by adding > a wire to the firewall . . . it's just redundant. > > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 10, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Grounding Tabs
At 03:57 PM 1/9/2016, you wrote: >Bob - I think you answered only half the question. Is it better to >isolate the grounding buss, and run a dedicated ground back to the >firewall ground, or mount the ground buss to the airframe, and not >run a wire back to to the firewall ground? In the metal airplane, grounding all panel mounted systems to panel structure is sufficient . . . no 'extension' wire to the firewall is useful . . . nor is it a potential 'loop hazard'. >In a metal airplane. Are you more apt to have possible ground loops >if you mount the buss to the airframe than you would isolating it >from the airframe and running the ground wire back to the firewall ground? No . . . the 'loop' exists when a potential antagonist (alternator, battery charging currents, flap motors, strobe supplies, etc) SHARES a grounding pathway with the low voltage signals of a potential victim (headphones, microphones, intercoms, remote compass sensors, etc). Tie all potential victims to ground at one place local to the panel . . . after that, signal integrity is no longer 'at risk' no matter how and where you ground all other things, Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 10, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Grounding Tabs
At 09:03 AM 1/10/2016, you wrote: >Marvin, >You might find a good explanation and tips in >the Wiring For Smart People document included as >a link here.=C2 >=C2 ><http://www.meyette.us/aircraft_wiring12july2008.pdf>http://www.meyette.us/ aircraft_wiring12july2008.pdf >I found it very useful when wiring my >plane.=C2 If I did it/read it right, the answer >to your question is to isolate the grounding >buss and take a lead back to the main battery and/or battery buss. Approach that document with caution . . . it is fraught with error and unfounded assertions. See: http://tinyurl.com/qxvr6nx Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 10, 2016
Subject: Re: Grounding Tabs
From: Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330(at)gmail.com>
Thanks so much for the link Trent. It was very helpful. I am starting to learn that some of this stuff is a lot of personal preference, but the basic rules are all the same. After all of this I will ground everything to a singe point (forest of tabs) that is directly connected to the Battery Ground, Firewall and engine ground strap. My only real issue was, because of the RV8 forward baggage location, is how to get all the grounds to the Brass bolt on the firewall and how large the connecting wire should be. A # 6 wire will do the trick. It is basically a all aircraft version of Bob's D-sub avionics grounding set up for the Avionics items. I would much rather have all the Tabs right on the back side of the firewall, but in the RV8 it just makes for a lot of extra long grounding wires routed in a inconvenient place. I will try and post some photos of my " final solution" Thanks again Mike On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Trent Heidtke wrote: > Marvin, > > You might find a good explanation and tips in the Wiring For Smart People > document included as a link here. > http://www.meyette.us/aircraft_wiring12july2008.pdf > > I found it very useful when wiring my plane. If I did it/read it right, > the answer to your question is to isolate the grounding buss and take a > lead back to the main battery and/or battery buss. > > Just my two cents.. > > Trent > > > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: > owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *H. Marvin > Haught > *Sent:* Saturday, January 09, 2016 2:57 PM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding Tabs > > > Bob - I think you answered only half the question. Is it better to > isolate the grounding buss, and run a dedicated ground back to the firewa ll > ground, or mount the ground buss to the airframe, and not run a wire back > to to the firewall ground? In a metal airplane. Are you more apt to hav e > possible ground loops if you mount the buss to the airframe than you woul d > isolating it from the airframe and running the ground wire back to the > firewall ground? > > > M. Haught > > > On Jan 9, 2016, at 3:14 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > > At 02:28 PM 1/9/2016, you wrote: > > Bob, > > When another =9Cgrounding bus=9D is used, like an avionics gr ound bus or a > =9Cpanel=9D ground bus, is it necessary to isolate/isolate th at ground bus from > the =9Clocal=9D ground, or other metal frame on the aircraft, before it is > connected to the common firewall ground? It seems to me that you should do > that to eliminate other possibilities of ground loops. > > > I'm going to clarify Z-15 in next revision . . . > you're correct that running a ground from > panel ground to firewall ground is redundant in a metal > airplane. It doesn't hurt anything as long as all > the potential victims (avionics and instruments) > ground at the single point panel ground. No > potentially antagonist loops are created by adding > a wire to the firewall . . . it's just redundant. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 10, 2016
Subject: Re: Grounding Tabs
From: William Mills <wtrooper(at)gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Grounding Tabs
From: "H. Marvin Haught Jr. " <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net>
Date: Jan 10, 2016
Okay.....I think I finally understand. I was making it a lot more complex that it really is, at least for a metal airframe. The airframe itself is a good basic ground for all components as long as you have good grounding points for the firewall/airframe/engine, and good common airframe ground for panel components. So for wing tip mounted strobes, the airframe ground is sufficient? No need to run a ground wire back to the firewall ground to avoid interference? M. Haught On 1/10/2016 10:45 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 03:57 PM 1/9/2016, you wrote: >> Bob - I think you answered only half the question. Is it better to >> isolate the grounding buss, and run a dedicated ground back to the >> firewall ground, or mount the ground buss to the airframe, and not >> run a wire back to to the firewall ground? > > In the metal airplane, grounding all panel mounted > systems to panel structure is sufficient . . . no > 'extension' wire to the firewall is useful . . . nor > is it a potential 'loop hazard'. > >> In a metal airplane. Are you more apt to have possible ground loops >> if you mount the buss to the airframe than you would isolating it >> from the airframe and running the ground wire back to the firewall >> ground? > > No . . . the 'loop' exists when a potential > antagonist (alternator, battery charging > currents, flap motors, strobe supplies, etc) > SHARES a grounding pathway with the low voltage > signals of a potential victim (headphones, microphones, > intercoms, remote compass sensors, etc). > > Tie all potential victims to ground at one place > local to the panel . . . after that, signal integrity > is no longer 'at risk' no matter how and where > you ground all other things, > > Bob . . . > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 10, 2016
Subject: Re: Returned Mail: Re: Grounding Tabs
From: Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330(at)gmail.com>
I have read Bob's reply. It raises another question. If I were to use B&C forest of tabs to ground everything. Flap motor , P. Heat, strobes, interior lights and all the panel stuff like coms, audio panel etc. would that cause a ground loop. Should you ground those Items directly to the airframe instead of the tabs. I will re read the ground loop explanation aagin, but I think my confusion exists on what the path is. sorry I started this but I just want to get it correct Thanks Mike On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 1:00 PM, wrote: > The following message from Michael Lazarowicz was > not authorized for entry in the Matronics Email Lists forum. > > Posts are only allowed from users with permission to post in the forum. > > > Visit this URL to register: http://forums.matronics.com//index.php > > From: Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330(at)gmail.com> > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Grounding Tabs > **************************************** > > Thanks so much for the link Trent. It was very helpful. I am starting t o > learn that some of this stuff is a lot of personal preference, but the > basic rules are all the same. After all of this I will ground everything > to a singe point (forest of tabs) that is directly connected to the Batte ry > Ground, Firewall and engine ground strap. My only real issue was, becaus e > of the RV8 forward baggage location, is how to get all the grounds to the > Brass bolt on the firewall and how large the connecting wire should be. A > # 6 wire will do the trick. It is basically a all aircraft version of > Bob's D-sub avionics grounding set up for the Avionics items. I would > much rather have all the Tabs right on the back side of the firewall, but > in the RV8 it just makes for a lot of extra long grounding wires routed i n > a inconvenient place. > > I will try and post some photos of my " final solution" > > > Thanks again > > Mike > > > On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Trent Heidtke wrote: > > > Marvin, > > > > You might find a good explanation and tips in the Wiring For Smart Peop le > > document included as a link here. > > http://www.meyette.us/aircraft_wiring12july2008.pdf > > > > I found it very useful when wiring my plane. If I did it/read it right , > > the answer to your question is to isolate the grounding buss and take a > > lead back to the main battery and/or battery buss. > > > > Just my two cents.. > > > > Trent > > > > > > > > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: > > owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *H. Marvin > > Haught > > *Sent:* Saturday, January 09, 2016 2:57 PM > > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > > *Subject:* Re: Grounding Tabs > > > > > > > > Bob - I think you answered only half the question. Is it better to > > isolate the grounding buss, and run a dedicated ground back to the > firewall > > ground, or mount the ground buss to the airframe, and not run a wire ba ck > > to to the firewall ground? In a metal airplane. Are you more apt to > have > > possible ground loops if you mount the buss to the airframe than you > would > > isolating it from the airframe and running the ground wire back to the > > firewall ground? > > > > > > > > M. Haught > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 9, 2016, at 3:14 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < > > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > At 02:28 PM 1/9/2016, you wrote: > > > > Bob, > > > > When another =9Cgrounding bus=9D is used, like an avionics ground bus or a > > =9Cpanel=9D ground bus, is it necessary to isolate/isolate that ground bus > from > > the =9Clocal=9D ground, or other metal frame on the aircraf t, before it is > > connected to the common firewall ground? It seems to me that you shoul d > do > > that to eliminate other possibilities of ground loops. > > > > > > I'm going to clarify Z-15 in next revision . . . > > you're correct that running a ground from > > panel ground to firewall ground is redundant in a metal > > airplane. It doesn't hurt anything as long as all > > the potential victims (avionics and instruments) > > ground at the single point panel ground. No > > potentially antagonist loops are created by adding > > a wire to the firewall . . . it's just redundant. > > > > > > > > Bob . . . > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 10, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Grounding Tabs
At 12:22 PM 1/10/2016, you wrote: >Okay.....I think I finally understand. I was making it a lot more >complex that it really is, at least for a metal airframe. The >airframe itself is a good basic ground for all components as long as >you have good grounding points for the firewall/airframe/engine, and >good common airframe ground for panel components. So for wing tip >mounted strobes, the airframe ground is sufficient? No need to run >a ground wire back to the firewall ground to avoid interference? No Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 10, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Returned Mail: Re: Grounding Tabs
At 04:35 PM 1/10/2016, you wrote: >I have read Bob's reply.=C2 It raises another >question.=C2 If I were to use B&C forest of tabs >to ground everything.=C2 Flap motor , P. >Heat,=C2 strobes, interior lights and all the >panel stuff like coms, audio panel etc.=C2 would that cause a ground loop. No . . . the "ideal" single point ground philosophy says take EVERYTHING to one place . . . except for the simplest of small airplanes, this is impractical. As shown in the Z-15 figures, collect all panel grounds (potential victims) to one place, all airframe grounds to firewall as practical . . . or ground locally as convenience dictates. For plastic airplanes, then -A- you DO gather airframe grounds to the firewall and -B- take an extension wire from the panel ground down to the firewall. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 11, 2016
Subject: Re: Returned Mail: Re: Grounding Tabs
From: Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330(at)gmail.com>
Thanks Bob. I will use the Forest of Tabs. Like I said in previous post. It is not Practical in the RV 8 to locate the forest on the firewall so it will be mounted on the bulkhead behind the panel ( Isolated from that thin bulkhead and I will ground everything I can to those tabs. I will use a #6 wire to connect that to the firewall/batter/engine strap bolt. I guess my confusion is Z-15 Shows all " panel grounds " in one place and all firewall grounds in another. I just wondered if by sharing that #6 wire to the firewall I would cause a problem? Thanks for your patience On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 04:35 PM 1/10/2016, you wrote: > > I have read Bob's reply.=C3=82 It raises another question.=C3=82 If I w ere to use > B&C forest of tabs to ground everything.=C3=82 Flap motor , P. Heat,=C3 =82 strobes, > interior lights and all the panel stuff like coms, audio panel etc.=C3=82 would > that cause a ground loop. > > > No . . . the "ideal" single point ground philosophy > says take EVERYTHING to one place . . . except for > the simplest of small airplanes, this is impractical. > > As shown in the Z-15 figures, collect all panel grounds > (potential victims) to one place, all airframe grounds > to firewall as practical . . . or ground locally as > convenience dictates. > > For plastic airplanes, then -A- you DO gather airframe grounds to > the firewall and -B- take an extension wire from > the panel ground down to the firewall. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeffrey W. Skiba" <jskiba(at)icosa.net>
Subject: Ground power supplies DIY
Date: Jan 11, 2016
T2theSBzbyBJIGFtIHRyeWluZyB0byBjcmVhdGUgYSBHcm91bmQgcG93ZXIgc3VwcGx5IGZvciBh IGxvdyBjb3N0IGFuZCBmb3VuZCBpdGVtcyBsaWtlIHRoaXMgb24gZWJheQ0KSGlnaCBRdWFsaXR5 IFVuaXZlcnNhbCBSZWd1bGF0ZWQgU3dpdGNoaW5nIFBvd2VyIFN1cHBseSBmb3IgQ0NUVi0xMlYg MzBBIERDIDM2MHcNCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZWJheS5jb20vaXRtL0hpZ2gtUXVhbGl0eS1Vbml2ZXJz YWwtUmVndWxhdGVkLVN3aXRjaGluZy1Qb3dlci1TdXBwbHktZm9yLUNDVFYtMTJWLTMwQS1EQy0z NjB3LS8zMzE3MzU1ODI2MTQ/aGFzaD1pdGVtNGQzY2ZiNDc5NjpnOn5FRUFBT1N3fm90V2M0aU8N Cg0KUXVlc3Rpb24gaXMgd291bGQgc29tZXRoaW5nIGxpa2UgdGhpcyBiZSBva2F5IHRvIHN1cHBs eSBtb2Rlcm4gYWlyY3JhZnQgYXZpb25pY3MgcG93ZXIgdmlhIHRoZSBncm91bmQgcG93ZXIgamFj ayA/DQoNCkkgbWVhbiBpdCBzdXBwbGllcyAzMGFtcHMgb2YgcG93ZXIgZnJvbSBlaXRoZXIgMTEw diBvciAyMzB2ICh2aWEgc3dpdGNoIHNlbGVjdGlvbikNCg0KU28gd2h5IGFyZSBwcmUgbWFkZSBh aXJjcmFmdCBwb3dlciBzdXBwbGllcyBzbyBleHBlbnNpdmUgPz8NCg0KV2hhdCBhbSBJIG1pc3Np bmcgb3Igc2hvdWxkIEkgbm90IGRvID8/PyBTaG91bGQgSSBiZSBsb29raW5nIGZvciBhIGRpZmZl cmVudCB0eXBlIG9mIHBvd2VyIHN1cHBseSA/DQoNCkkgcmVhbGx5IHdhbnQgdG8gdXNlIGl0IHRv IHNpdCBpbiB0aGUgYWlyY3JhZnQgYW5kIGNvbmZpZyBhbGwgdGhlIGF2aW9uaWNzIChiYXR0ZXJ5 IHdpbGwgYmUgY29ubmVjdGVkIGJ1dCB0aGF0IGNhbiBnZXQgZHJhaW5lZCBhZnRlciBhIGZldyBo b3VycyB3aXRoIGV2ZXJ5dGhpbmcgb24gYW5kIG5vIGFsdGVybmF0b3IgVHVyaW5nIHRvIHBvd2Vy IHRoaW5ncykNCg0KDQpUaGFua3MNCkplZmYuDQo ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Daniel Hooper <enginerdy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Ground power supplies DIY
Date: Jan 11, 2016
I do not see a UL listing label anywhere. Buyer beware, safety not guaranteed! > On Jan 11, 2016, at 5:56 PM, Jeffrey W. Skiba wrote: > > Okay so I am trying to create a Ground power supply for a low cost and found items like this on ebay > High Quality Universal Regulated Switching Power Supply for CCTV-12V 30A DC 360w > http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Quality-Universal-Regulated-Switching-Power-S upply-for-CCTV-12V-30A-DC-360w-/331735582614?hash=item4d3cfb4796:g:~EEAA OSw~otWc4iO <http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Quality-Universal-Regulated-Switching-Power- Supply-for-CCTV-12V-30A-DC-360w-/331735582614?hash=item4d3cfb4796:g:~EEA AOSw~otWc4iO> > > Question is would something like this be okay to supply modern aircraft avionics power via the ground power jack ? > > I mean it supplies 30amps of power from either 110v or 230v (via switch selection) > > So why are pre made aircraft power supplies so expensive ?? > > What am I missing or should I not do ??? Should I be looking for a different type of power supply ? > > I really want to use it to sit in the aircraft and config all the avionics (battery will be connected but that can get drained after a few hours with everything on and no alternator Turing to power things) > > > Thanks > Jeff. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ground power supplies DIY
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 11, 2016
That's probably something to at least check, if you do purchase it. You should be able to check for safety with an ohm meter. Just check from each low voltage terminal to every line level terminal to be sure it's transformer-isolated. Other than that, I'd probably go for it. The hotdog aviation supplies may be set up to run at 14 volts instead of 12, to mimic actual operating voltage with the alternator online, but that's not significant. After all, if your alternator quits, your electronics will still need to operate on battery-only. If you don't need to run your entire panel for hours at a time, you can achieve the same thing with a cheap 12V SLA battery and a fully automatic trickle charger. If you already have both on hand, you wouldn't need to buy anything but hookup bits & pieces. Charlie On 1/11/2016 6:32 PM, Daniel Hooper wrote: > I do not see a UL listing label anywhere. Buyer beware, safety not > guaranteed! > >> On Jan 11, 2016, at 5:56 PM, Jeffrey W. Skiba > > wrote: >> >> Okay so I am trying to create a Ground power supply for a low cost >> and found items like this on ebay >> High Quality Universal Regulated Switching Power Supply for CCTV-12V >> 30A DC 360w >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Quality-Universal-Regulated-Switching-Power-Supply-for-CCTV-12V-30A-DC-360w-/331735582614?hash=item4d3cfb4796:g:~EEAAOSw~otWc4iO >> <http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Quality-Universal-Regulated-Switching-Power-Supply-for-CCTV-12V-30A-DC-360w-/331735582614?hash=item4d3cfb4796:g:%7EEEAAOSw%7EotWc4iO> >> Question is would something like this be okay to supply modern >> aircraft avionics power via the ground power jack ? >> I mean it supplies 30amps of power from either 110v or 230v (via >> switch selection) >> So why are pre made aircraft power supplies so expensive ?? >> What am I missing or should I not do ??? Should I be looking for a >> different type of power supply ? >> I really want to use it to sit in the aircraft and config all the >> avionics (battery will be connected but that can get drained after a >> few hours with everything on and no alternator Turing to power things) >> Thanks >> Jeff. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeffrey W. Skiba" <jskiba(at)icosa.net>
Subject: Ground power supplies DIY
Date: Jan 12, 2016
So what's the difference of using one of these ? http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-SE-1275A-Automatic-Onboard-Battery/dp/B000 BO8TTY I have one already could I just connect it to external power plug and be go od to go (the battery is still on line) is it not as clean for power output ? (granted it's really only 12amps) Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground power supplies DIY That's probably something to at least check, if you do purchase it. You sho uld be able to check for safety with an ohm meter. Just check from each low voltage terminal to every line level terminal to be sure it's transformer- isolated. Other than that, I'd probably go for it. The hotdog aviation supplies may b e set up to run at 14 volts instead of 12, to mimic actual operating voltag e with the alternator online, but that's not significant. After all, if you r alternator quits, your electronics will still need to operate on battery- only. If you don't need to run your entire panel for hours at a time, you can ach ieve the same thing with a cheap 12V SLA battery and a fully automatic tric kle charger. If you already have both on hand, you wouldn't need to buy any thing but hookup bits & pieces. Charlie On 1/11/2016 6:32 PM, Daniel Hooper wrote: I do not see a UL listing label anywhere. Buyer beware, safety not guarante ed! On Jan 11, 2016, at 5:56 PM, Jeffrey W. Skiba > wrote: Okay so I am trying to create a Ground power supply for a low cost and foun d items like this on ebay High Quality Universal Regulated Switching Power Supply for CCTV-12V 30A DC 360w http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Quality-Universal-Regulated-Switching-Power-Su pply-for-CCTV-12V-30A-DC-360w-/331735582614?hash=item4d3cfb4796:g:~EEAAOS w~otWc4iO Question is would something like this be okay to supply modern aircraft avi onics power via the ground power jack ? I mean it supplies 30amps of power from either 110v or 230v (via switch sel ection) So why are pre made aircraft power supplies so expensive ?? What am I missing or should I not do ??? Should I be looking for a differen t type of power supply ? I really want to use it to sit in the aircraft and config all the avionics (battery will be connected but that can get drained after a few hours with everything on and no alternator Turing to power things) Thanks Jeff. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Daniel Hooper <enginerdy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Ground power supplies DIY
Date: Jan 11, 2016
> On Jan 11, 2016, at 7:15 PM, Charlie England wrote: > > That's probably something to at least check, if you do purchase it. You should be able to check for safety with an ohm meter. Just check from each low voltage terminal to every line level terminal to be sure it's transformer-isolated. That is is isolated is virtually guaranteed. The question is whether it will stay that way! The UL requirements and tests ensure that it both will not pose a fire hazard and it will be electrically isolated from the line during reasonable use and *throughout the life of the product*. Basically without the UL listing, there=92s no verifiable way to know just what you=92re getting. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Ground power supplies DIY
Date: Jan 11, 2016
I purchased one like this from eBay a couple of years ago. The PS comes fr om China. It does as it is advertized to do and is well made, or at least the one I h ave. My 185 has a ground power jack box built in near the battery. I use it for running the panel when doing adjustments, etc. to the avionics. I used some medium heavy duty alligator clips to connect to my heavy duty p lugs. You great care in connecting this way so you don't create a short. Or, if you don't mind spending lots of $$, buy a set of the mating jack/plu gs for that external jumper junctions. A lot safer. . . My unit came with no instructions nor data other than its rating. You may have to figure out what terminals on the terminal board go to "wher e". The PS also needs to be turned on before connection to the aircraft, like a ny bench "style" unit. The regulated output DC voltage is set via a small pot adjustment. So use a V meter to get the output set about right and then, after connection, you may have to tweak the pot a tad to get the voltage you need. It will hold that voltage very well up to its max current rating. If the PS is the same/similar to the one I have it is a heck of a deal for powering up the avionics panel. Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- ----- Original Message ----- From: Charlie England To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 5:15 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground power supplies DIY That's probably something to at least check, if you do purchase it. You s hould be able to check for safety with an ohm meter. Just check from each l ow voltage terminal to every line level terminal to be sure it's transforme r-isolated. Other than that, I'd probably go for it. The hotdog aviation supplies may be set up to run at 14 volts instead of 12, to mimic actual operating volt age with the alternator online, but that's not significant. After all, if y our alternator quits, your electronics will still need to operate on batter y-only. If you don't need to run your entire panel for hours at a time, you can a chieve the same thing with a cheap 12V SLA battery and a fully automatic tr ickle charger. If you already have both on hand, you wouldn't need to buy a nything but hookup bits & pieces. Charlie On 1/11/2016 6:32 PM, Daniel Hooper wrote: I do not see a UL listing label anywhere. Buyer beware, safety not guar anteed! On Jan 11, 2016, at 5:56 PM, Jeffrey W. Skiba wrot e: Okay so I am trying to create a Ground power supply for a low cost an d found items like this on ebay High Quality Universal Regulated Switching Power Supply for CCTV-12V 30A DC 360w http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Quality-Universal-Regulated-Switching-Po wer-Supply-for-CCTV-12V-30A-DC-360w-/331735582614?hash=item4d3cfb4796:g:~ EEAAOSw~otWc4iO Question is would something like this be okay to supply modern aircra ft avionics power via the ground power jack ? I mean it supplies 30amps of power from either 110v or 230v (via swit ch selection) So why are pre made aircraft power supplies so expensive ?? What am I missing or should I not do ??? Should I be looking for a di fferent type of power supply ? I really want to use it to sit in the aircraft and config all the avi onics (battery will be connected but that can get drained after a few hours with everything on and no alternator Turing to power things) Thanks Jeff. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ground power supplies DIY
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 11, 2016
I'd certainly try it out. You might try some sort of inexpensive 12V audio device first, to see how noisy it is. Even if it's too noisy, you can still run battery only for quite a while, then recharge between sessions. On 1/11/2016 8:04 PM, Jeffrey W. Skiba wrote: > > So whats the difference of using one of these ? > > http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-SE-1275A-Automatic-Onboard-Battery/dp/B000BO8TTY > > I have one already could I just connect it to external power plug and > be good to go (the battery is still on line) is it not as clean for > power output ? (granted its really only 12amps) > > *Subject:*Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground power supplies DIY > > That's probably something to at least check, if you do purchase it. > You should be able to check for safety with an ohm meter. Just check > from each low voltage terminal to every line level terminal to be sure > it's transformer-isolated. > > Other than that, I'd probably go for it. The hotdog aviation supplies > may be set up to run at 14 volts instead of 12, to mimic actual > operating voltage with the alternator online, but that's not > significant. After all, if your alternator quits, your electronics > will still need to operate on battery-only. > > If you don't need to run your entire panel for hours at a time, you > can achieve the same thing with a cheap 12V SLA battery and a fully > automatic trickle charger. If you already have both on hand, you > wouldn't need to buy anything but hookup bits & pieces. > > Charlie > > On 1/11/2016 6:32 PM, Daniel Hooper wrote: > > I do not see a UL listing label anywhere. Buyer beware, safety not > guaranteed! > > On Jan 11, 2016, at 5:56 PM, Jeffrey W. Skiba > > wrote: > > Okay so I am trying to create a Ground power supply for a low > cost and found items like this on ebay > > High Quality Universal Regulated Switching Power Supply for > CCTV-12V 30A DC 360w > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Quality-Universal-Regulated-Switching-Power-Supply-for-CCTV-12V-30A-DC-360w-/331735582614?hash=item4d3cfb4796:g:~EEAAOSw~otWc4iO > <http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Quality-Universal-Regulated-Switching-Power-Supply-for-CCTV-12V-30A-DC-360w-/331735582614?hash=item4d3cfb4796:g:%7EEEAAOSw%7EotWc4iO> > > Question is would something like this be okay to supply modern > aircraft avionics power via the ground power jack ? > > I mean it supplies 30amps of power from either 110v or 230v > (via switch selection) > > So why are pre made aircraft power supplies so expensive ?? > > What am I missing or should I not do ??? Should I be looking > for a different type of power supply ? > > I really want to use it to sit in the aircraft and config all > the avionics (battery will be connected but that can get > drained after a few hours with everything on and no alternator > Turing to power things) > > Thanks > > Jeff. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "jim" <jimkale(at)roadrunner.com>
Subject: Ground power supplies DIY
Date: Jan 11, 2016
Power supplies have several different types of ratings, and most have no overvoltage protection in case the power supply regulator fails. One of the ratings is how much current (Amps) will it provide while maintaining the rated voltage. Ripple is a rating about how much the voltage is allowed to fluctuate while providing current. The fluctuation is normally at about 60 Hz (cycles per second) for older designs, however, the modern switching type power supplies may have ripple at many different frequencies that may or may not show up as a humming noise on radios, etc. Some have voltage adjustments, some don't. If you get an adjustable one and it is inadvertently turned up too high, it can fill your airplane with very expensive smoke in short order. Too low of a voltage can also cause some serious problems with SOME avionics. The old adage LET THE BUYER BEWARE is very appropriate here. An attempt to save money might be extremely expensive. Jim From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Lloyd Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 8:24 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground power supplies DIY I purchased one like this from eBay a couple of years ago. The PS comes from China. It does as it is advertized to do and is well made, or at least the one I have. My 185 has a ground power jack box built in near the battery. I use it for running the panel when doing adjustments, etc. to the avionics. I used some medium heavy duty alligator clips to connect to my heavy duty plugs. You great care in connecting this way so you don't create a short. Or, if you don't mind spending lots of $$, buy a set of the mating jack/plugs for that external jumper junctions. A lot safer. . . My unit came with no instructions nor data other than its rating. You may have to figure out what terminals on the terminal board go to "where". The PS also needs to be turned on before connection to the aircraft, like any bench "style" unit. The regulated output DC voltage is set via a small pot adjustment. So use a V meter to get the output set about right and then, after connection, you may have to tweak the pot a tad to get the voltage you need. It will hold that voltage very well up to its max current rating. If the PS is the same/similar to the one I have it is a heck of a deal for powering up the avionics panel. Dave _____ ----- Original Message ----- From: Charlie England <mailto:ceengland7(at)gmail.com> Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 5:15 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground power supplies DIY That's probably something to at least check, if you do purchase it. You should be able to check for safety with an ohm meter. Just check from each low voltage terminal to every line level terminal to be sure it's transformer-isolated. Other than that, I'd probably go for it. The hotdog aviation supplies may be set up to run at 14 volts instead of 12, to mimic actual operating voltage with the alternator online, but that's not significant. After all, if your alternator quits, your electronics will still need to operate on battery-only. If you don't need to run your entire panel for hours at a time, you can achieve the same thing with a cheap 12V SLA battery and a fully automatic trickle charger. If you already have both on hand, you wouldn't need to buy anything but hookup bits & pieces. Charlie On 1/11/2016 6:32 PM, Daniel Hooper wrote: I do not see a UL listing label anywhere. Buyer beware, safety not guaranteed! On Jan 11, 2016, at 5:56 PM, Jeffrey W. Skiba > wrote: Okay so I am trying to create a Ground power supply for a low cost and found items like this on ebay High Quality Universal Regulated Switching Power Supply for CCTV-12V 30A DC 360w http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Quality-Universal-Regulated-Switching-Power-Sup ply-for-CCTV-12V-30A-DC-360w-/331735582614?hash=item4d3cfb4796:g:~EEAAOSw~ot Wc4iO Question is would something like this be okay to supply modern aircraft avionics power via the ground power jack ? I mean it supplies 30amps of power from either 110v or 230v (via switch selection) So why are pre made aircraft power supplies so expensive ?? What am I missing or should I not do ??? Should I be looking for a different type of power supply ? I really want to use it to sit in the aircraft and config all the avionics (battery will be connected but that can get drained after a few hours with everything on and no alternator Turing to power things) Thanks Jeff. This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. www.avast.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 12, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Ground power supplies DIY
At 08:04 PM 1/11/2016, you wrote: >So what's the difference of using one of these ? ><http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-SE-1275A-Automatic-Onboard-Battery/dp/B000BO8TTY>http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-SE-1275A-Automatic-Onboard-Battery/dp/B000BO8TTY > >I have one already could I just connect it to external power plug >and be good to go (the battery is still on line) is it not as clean >for power output ? (granted it's really only 12amps) Those do not deliver smooth DC voltage. They are CHARGERS . . . not POWER SUPPLIES. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jeff <jluckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Ground power supplies DIY
Date: Jan 12, 2016
Is that a YES or a NO, Bob? Doesn't a charger, in combination with a battery, deliver power that is clea n enough to do the job? Sent from my iPad > On Jan 12, 2016, at 06:36, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelect ric.com> wrote: > > At 08:04 PM 1/11/2016, you wrote: >> So what=99s the difference of using one of these ? >> http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-SE-1275A-Automatic-Onboard-Battery/dp/B0 00BO8TTY >> >> I have one already could I just connect it to external power plug and be g ood to go (the battery is still on line) is it not as clean for power output ? (granted it=99s really only 12amps) > > Those do not deliver smooth DC voltage. They are > CHARGERS . . . not POWER SUPPLIES. > > ========================== ========================== ========================== ========================== ========================== ========================== ====== ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ground power supplies DIY
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2016
I have an RV-12 E-LSA with a Odyssey PC680 battery. If I intend to sit on the ground with the Dynon D-180 turned on for more than 5 minutes, I will connect a battery/maintainer similar to this one: Walmart #: 001036720 It is a charger, not a power supply. But it has worked fine for me for the past 5 years. I have read that modern avionics should be capable of withstanding anything that an aircraft electrical system can throw at them. I suspect that the Schumacher charger will not put out as much noise and voltage spikes as an aircraft electrical system with relays, contactors, RF transmitters, motors, strobes, alternators, and etc. An avionics technician doing serious bench testing, will want a high quality power supply. But for a pilot sitting in the airplane pushing buttons to learn how to use a glass panel, I agree with Charlie's posts above. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451905#451905 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: "Paul Eckenroth" <jeckenroth(at)nbn.net>
Date: Jan 12, 2016
I'm building a Onex that takes a VW engine. The engine is a Revmaster which has two 20 Amp PM generators housed in the accessory case. I believe the output for each would be single phase. I read that the PM alternators generate variable voltage based on RPM. I am hoping to use a Lithium battery which has a maximum charging voltage of 14.7V. Would like recommendations on how to create a reliable and safe combination of elements. I have built an RV9A using Aeroelectric guidelines for the electrical system and created a totally trouble free airplane. Hoping to do it again with the Onex but cannot find the relevant information. Need help. Paul Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451909#451909 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 12, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Ground power supplies DIY
At 08:04 PM 1/11/2016, you wrote: >So what's the difference of using one of these ? ><http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-SE-1275A-Automatic-Onboard-Battery/dp/B000BO8TTY>http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-SE-1275A-Automatic-Onboard-Battery/dp/B000BO8TTY > >I have one already could I just connect it to external power plug >and be good to go (the battery is still on line) is it not as clean >for power output ? (granted it's really only 12amps) Those do not deliver smooth DC voltage. They are CHARGERS . . . not POWER SUPPLIES. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 12, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Ground power supplies DIY
At 10:05 PM 1/11/2016, you wrote: >Power supplies have several different types of ratings, and most >have no overvoltage protection in case the power supply regulator fails. >One of the ratings is how much current (Amps) will it provide while >maintaining the rated voltage. >Ripple is a rating about how much the voltage is allowed to >fluctuate while providing current. The fluctuation is normally at >about 60 Hz (cycles per second) for older designs, however, the >modern switching type power supplies may have ripple at many >different frequencies that may or may not show up as a humming noise >on radios, etc. Here's my present value-choice for an AC mains ground power supply . . . http://tinyurl.com/zbn5g6m It comes with lots of approvals. There's no reason to suspect that the 'protective' features cited are not equal to the best we know how to do in that industry. . . . and it's tough to beat the price/performance numbers. This is on a part with a 20A switchmode supply I used to sell out of the 'Connection inventory about 10 years ago . . . but at 1/4th the price. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 12, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
At 11:44 AM 1/12/2016, you wrote: > >I'm building a Onex that takes a VW engine. The engine is a >Revmaster which has two 20 Amp PM generators housed in the accessory >case. I believe the output for each would be single phase. I read >that the PM alternators generate variable voltage based on RPM. I >am hoping to use a Lithium battery which has a maximum charging >voltage of 14.7V. Would like recommendations on how to create a >reliable and safe combination of elements. I have built an RV9A >using Aeroelectric guidelines for the electrical system and created >a totally trouble free airplane. Hoping to do it again with the >Onex but cannot find the relevant information. Need help. How does Revmaster suggest that these alternators be used? Can you tell us where to download the relevant installation guidance? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 12, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Ground power supplies DIY
> . . . and it's tough to beat the price/performance > numbers. This is on a part with a 20A switchmode > supply I used to sell out of the 'Connection > inventory about 10 years ago . . . but at 1/4th > the price. Oh yeah, order the 15 volt version and adjust it down to 14v to run your airplane. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Daniel Hooper <enginerdy(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Ground power supplies DIY
Date: Jan 12, 2016
> > On Jan 12, 2016, at 11:47 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > Here's my present value-choice for an AC > mains ground power supply . . . So connecting this 15V supply through a silicon diode would put the output at around 14.4V.. is that the idea? Thanks, Daniel ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Ground power supplies DIY
Date: Jan 12, 2016
No. The output is adjustable. Simply turn the voltage adjustment slightly c ounterclockwise to achieve the desired output. Bob McC From: enginerdy(at)gmail.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground power supplies DIY Date: Tue=2C 12 Jan 2016 11:56:46 -0600 On Jan 12=2C 2016=2C at 11:47 AM=2C Robert L. Nuckolls=2C III @aeroelectric.com> wrote: Here's my present value-choice for an AC mains ground power supply . . . So connecting this 15V supply through a silicon diode would put the output at around 14.4V.. is that the idea? Thanks=2CDaniel ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2016
On 1/12/2016 11:44 AM, Paul Eckenroth wrote: > > I'm building a Onex that takes a VW engine. The engine is a Revmaster which has two 20 Amp PM generators housed in the accessory case. I believe the output for each would be single phase. I read that the PM alternators generate variable voltage based on RPM. I am hoping to use a Lithium battery which has a maximum charging voltage of 14.7V. Would like recommendations on how to create a reliable and safe combination of elements. I have built an RV9A using Aeroelectric guidelines for the electrical system and created a totally trouble free airplane. Hoping to do it again with the Onex but cannot find the relevant information. Need help. > > Paul Doesn't the Revmaster come with regulators for the PM generators? The output of the regulators should be more or less 'standard' a/c operating voltage of 14V. If you don't have regulators in the circuit, the battery will likely outlast your electronics. :-) Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ground power supplies DIY
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2016
On Jan 12, 2016, at 9:56 AM, Daniel Hooper wrote: > So connecting this 15V supply through a silicon diode would put the output at around 14.4V.. is that the idea? > > Thanks, > Daniel There's a potentiometer on the unit that allows output voltage adjustment within approximately +/-10% of nominal. The listing says the limits are 13.5V - 16.5V. Eric ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "H. Marvin Haught" <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net>
Subject: Re: Step up/Down Voltage Regulator
Date: Jan 12, 2016
Don=99t want to hijack a thread, but last week, while visiting a local salvage sales company, was looking a table full of Simran SMVS-300 (300 Watts) Step-up/Down Voltage regulators with built in circuit breaker. These appear to be brand new. Was standing there trying to figure for what they would be used as I studied one, and the owner walked by and told me to take it home with me. So I did, but have no idea how it would be used? Photos attached. > On Jan 12, 2016, at 11:47 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 10:05 PM 1/11/2016, you wrote: >> Power supplies have several different types of ratings, and most have no overvoltage protection in case the power supply regulator fails. >> One of the ratings is how much current (Amps) will it provide while maintaining the rated voltage. >> Ripple is a rating about how much the voltage is allowed to fluctuate while providing current. The fluctuation is normally at about 60 Hz (cycles per second) for older designs, however, the modern switching type power supplies may have ripple at many different frequencies that may or may not show up as a humming noise on radios, etc. > > Here's my present value-choice for an AC > mains ground power supply . . . > > http://tinyurl.com/zbn5g6m > > <http://tinyurl.com/zbn5g6m> It comes with lots of approvals. There's > no reason to suspect that the 'protective' > features cited are not equal to the best > we know how to do in that industry. > > . . . and it's tough to beat the price/performance > numbers. This is on a part with a 20A switchmode > supply I used to sell out of the 'Connection > inventory about 10 years ago . . . but at 1/4th > the price. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 12, 2016
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: Paul Eckenroth <N509RV(at)eckenroth.com>
The Revmaster comes with very basic installation instructions. They have a schematic showing the two output wires going to a rectifier/regulator TMG-3096 with a fuse on one leg of the output. I have been unable to find anything on this rectifier using Google. I am concerned about keeping the voltage within the requirements of the Lithium battery, any requirement for automatic shut down, connecting the two alternators to a single battery, etc. Paul On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 1:40 PM, Charlie England wrote: > ceengland7(at)gmail.com> > > On 1/12/2016 11:44 AM, Paul Eckenroth wrote: > >> jeckenroth(at)nbn.net> >> >> I'm building a Onex that takes a VW engine. The engine is a Revmaster >> which has two 20 Amp PM generators housed in the accessory case. I believe >> the output for each would be single phase. I read that the PM alternators >> generate variable voltage based on RPM. I am hoping to use a Lithium >> battery which has a maximum charging voltage of 14.7V. Would like >> recommendations on how to create a reliable and safe combination of >> elements. I have built an RV9A using Aeroelectric guidelines for the >> electrical system and created a totally trouble free airplane. Hoping to >> do it again with the Onex but cannot find the relevant information. Need >> help. >> >> Paul >> > Doesn't the Revmaster come with regulators for the PM generators? The > output of the regulators should be more or less 'standard' a/c operating > voltage of 14V. > > If you don't have regulators in the circuit, the battery will likely > outlast your electronics. :-) > > Charlie > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 12, 2016
From: James Bean <jimbean6(at)optimum.net>
Subject: Grounding Tabs
I don't see why you say it is not practical to mount on the firewall. My 8 has tabs on both sides of the firewall with a big brass bolt through the whole thing that picks up the engine ground strap. They are just below the baggage compartment floor. Worked for me. cheers Jim Bean Subject: Re: Returned Mail: Re: Grounding Tabs From: Michael Lazarowicz Thanks Bob. I will use the Forest of Tabs. Like I said in previous post. It is not Practical in the RV 8 to locate the forest on the firewall so it will be mounted on the bulkhead behind the panel ( Isolated from that thin bulkhead and I will ground everything I can to those tabs. I will use a #6 wire to connect that to the firewall/batter/engine strap bolt. I guess my confusion is Z-15 Shows all " panel grounds " in one place and all firewall grounds in another. I just wondered if by sharing that #6 wire to the firewall I would cause a problem? Thanks for your patience On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 04:35 PM 1/10/2016, you wrote: > > I have read Bob's reply.=C3=82 It raises another question.=C3=82 If I w ere to use > B&C forest of tabs to ground everything.=C3=82 Flap motor , P. Heat,=C3 =82 strobes, > interior lights and all the panel stuff like coms, audio panel etc.=C3=82 would > that cause a ground loop. > > > No . . . the "ideal" single point ground philosophy > says take EVERYTHING to one place . . . except for > the simplest of small airplanes, this is impractical. > > As shown in the Z-15 figures, collect all panel grounds > (potential victims) to one place, all airframe grounds > to firewall as practical . . . or ground locally as > convenience dictates. > > For plastic airplanes, then -A- you DO gather airframe grounds to > the firewall and -B- take an extension wire from > the panel ground down to the firewall. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 12, 2016
Subject: Re: Grounding Tabs
From: Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330(at)gmail.com>
James , You are correct. it is not impractical to mount the tabs there. It is purely a mater of style and preference. I just did not want to run 20+ panel wires there. I actually got the Idea from one of Stein Airs Avionics guys who built an beautiful 8 that won a Lindy last summer at Oshkosh. He put a small forest of Tabs on the bulkhead behind the panel and it made for real simple panel grounding locations. In his case, he just connected the forest to a piece of structure and did not go all the way to the firewall. He also had a rear mounted battery, mine is up front I really like the forest of tabs on the firewall. It makes so much sense. Where I became confused ( and still am) is when Bob . proposed using a remote connection from that ground to all the panel stuff. My logic was if you are going to move the panel grounds, why not all of them. It appears now , after reading Bob's book more closely that there is some advantage to not having one central point for everything. This whole electrical thing for me is not just about building, but an education in this stuff I have never had. I am grateful to Bob and all who take the time to answer my questions. Mike On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 3:36 PM, James Bean wrote: > > I don't see why you say it is not practical to mount on the firewall. > My 8 has tabs on both sides of the firewall with a big brass bolt through > the whole thing that picks > up the engine ground strap. They are just below the baggage compartment > floor. > Worked for me. > cheers Jim Bean > > Subject: Re: Returned Mail: Re: Grounding Tabs > From: Michael Lazarowicz > > Thanks Bob. I will use the Forest of Tabs. Like I said in previous > post. > It is not Practical in the RV 8 to locate the forest on the firewall > so it > will be mounted on the bulkhead behind the panel ( Isolated from > that thin > bulkhead and I will ground everything I can to those tabs. I will > use a #6 > wire to connect that to the firewall/batter/engine strap bolt. I > guess my > confusion is Z-15 Shows all " panel grounds " in one place and all > firewall grounds in another. I just wondered if by sharing that #6 > wire to > the firewall I would cause a problem? > > Thanks for your patience > > On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > > At 04:35 PM 1/10/2016, you wrote: > > > > I have read Bob's reply.=C3=82 It raises another question.=C3=82 > If I w > ere to use > > B&C forest of tabs to ground everything.=C3=82 Flap motor , P. > Heat,=C3 > =82 strobes, > > interior lights and all the panel stuff like coms, audio panel > etc.=C3=82 > would > > that cause a ground loop. > > > > > > No . . . the "ideal" single point ground philosophy > > says take EVERYTHING to one place . . . except for > > the simplest of small airplanes, this is impractical. > > > > As shown in the Z-15 figures, collect all panel grounds > > (potential victims) to one place, all airframe grounds > > to firewall as practical . . . or ground locally as > > convenience dictates. > > > > For plastic airplanes, then -A- you DO gather airframe grounds to > > the firewall and -B- take an extension wire from > > the panel ground down to the firewall. > > > > Bob . . . > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Step up/Down Voltage Regulator
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2016
It looks like it will convert 240 VAC to 120 VAC or vice-versa. The ad mentions a refrigerator, but 300 watts will not handle that. http://www.220converters.com/store/p/69-Simran-SMVS300-300-W-Watts-Voltage-Converter-with-Stabilizer.html -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451930#451930 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 12, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Grounding Tabs
At 02:36 PM 1/12/2016, you wrote: > >I don't see why you say it is not practical to mount on the firewall. . . . if you've got something like a Kitfox with a few day/vfr avionics and the panel hardware is close to the firewall ground . . . then it's easy. But if you have a LAIVP with a panel full of electron herders and byte thrashers, it's not so practical to run a BUNDLE of shield, audio, power and signal grounds up to the firewall. Then it makes more sense to gather all those things up AT THE PANEL then, if a plastic airplane, EXTEND the panel ground to the firewall on a suitable conductor. If a metal airplane, then no extension is necessary or helpful. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2016
How many wires come from the alternator, just two or two pairs? Are the wires marked or color coded? Do you have a picture of the rectifier/regulator? Can you post the schematic that you have? -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451935#451935 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Electrical system design critique
From: "Jump4way" <andydelk(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2016
I'm working on my electrical system design. My plan is to install the EFII system using two alternators and one battery. The primary ECU, injector, fuel pump, and ignition will be powered off the always hot battery bus with the secondary set of the above powered off of the main bus. I've chosen to install a couple of fusible links in areas where the aeroelectric connection book recommends wire runs 6" or less and I was unable to achieve that. I'm not sure if a run of 2-3 ft would require a fusible link... still scratching my head on that. I haven't completed the diagram quite yet as I haven't decided on which alternator/regulator combo to go with so that portion is left mostly out at this point. Avionics haven't been purchased yet but I'm leaning towards the Garmin G3x suite of instruments. Any feedback would be very appreciated. I apologize for the quality of the drawing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451938#451938 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/z1320_efii_584.png ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2016
I don't have direct knowledge of the Revmaster stuff, but it's highly likely that it functions just like any other 'dynamo'. Basically, you hook up the 'rectifier' as recommended, and variable frequency, variable voltage goes in and regulated 14.x volts DC comes out. It's not likely that there's any overvoltage protection built in, so that would need to be done with an external device(s). IIRC, there's info in the Connection on how to handle dynamo style alternator/regulator systems. An overvoltage detection module that drives a relay (contactor) capable of handling the regulators max output is the simplest way to protect from an overvoltage event. If there are two separate dynamos, you'd need two separate protection systems. Charlie On 1/12/2016 2:00 PM, Paul Eckenroth wrote: > The Revmaster comes with very basic installation instructions. They > have a schematic showing the two output wires going to a > rectifier/regulator TMG-3096 with a fuse on one leg of the output. I > have been unable to find anything on this rectifier using Google. I > am concerned about keeping the voltage within the requirements of the > Lithium battery, any requirement for automatic shut down, connecting > the two alternators to a single battery, etc. > > Paul > > On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 1:40 PM, Charlie England > wrote: > > > > > On 1/12/2016 11:44 AM, Paul Eckenroth wrote: > > > > > I'm building a Onex that takes a VW engine. The engine is a > Revmaster which has two 20 Amp PM generators housed in the > accessory case. I believe the output for each would be single > phase. I read that the PM alternators generate variable > voltage based on RPM. I am hoping to use a Lithium battery > which has a maximum charging voltage of 14.7V. Would like > recommendations on how to create a reliable and safe > combination of elements. I have built an RV9A using > Aeroelectric guidelines for the electrical system and created > a totally trouble free airplane. Hoping to do it again with > the Onex but cannot find the relevant information. Need help. > > Paul > > Doesn't the Revmaster come with regulators for the PM generators? > The output of the regulators should be more or less 'standard' a/c > operating voltage of 14V. > > If you don't have regulators in the circuit, the battery will > likely outlast your electronics. :-) > > Charlie > > > ========== > br> fts!) > r> > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > ========== > - > Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ========== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electrical system design critique
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2016
Does the solid state battery contactor conduct in BOTH directions? Is it rated for starter current? The 60 amp alternator needs a fuse located close to the contactors. If the 5 amp alternator field wire shorts out, the 15 amp fuse will likely blow before the circuit breaker trips. I recommend not putting two circuit protection devices in series. A separate avionics bus is not necessary and introduces unnecessary failure points. Read this thread: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16757246&sid=74d855944e77ced507a5bb87d7f9a72f and this document: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/avmaster.pdf -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451940#451940 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electrical system design critique
From: "Jump4way" <andydelk(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 13, 2016
The solid state disconnect is rated at 300 amps with 500 amps for one second. It's not clear to me whether it is rated the same in both directions. Here is a link to the documentation they provide. http://www.waytekwire.com/datasheet/44407.pdf Good catch on the ANL fuse. I'll put that in. For the breaker bus feed, would you just leave that 12 gauge wire unprotected from the main bus? Any comments on the location and usage of the fuse links? Also, I'm conflicted about the placement of the primary and secondary engine related items. Any recommendation on which bus to locate the primary ECU, ignition, and fuel pump? Thanks for your time and critique. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451945#451945 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Electrical system design critique
Date: Jan 13, 2016
I can confirm that the solid state contractor does in fact conduct both directions. I'm running this setup already and it works great. I have an ANL fuse installed by the contractor in the main alternator B lead. I can send pictures if interested. I also have a fuse in the aux alternator b lead. Andy, If you wish, I can send you my final diagram on how I wired this exact same setup. I'm very happy with it. I have pictures also. Justin > On Jan 13, 2016, at 08:20, Jump4way wrote: > > > The solid state disconnect is rated at 300 amps with 500 amps for one second. It's not clear to me whether it is rated the same in both directions. Here is a link to the documentation they provide. http://www.waytekwire.com/datasheet/44407.pdf > > Good catch on the ANL fuse. I'll put that in. > > For the breaker bus feed, would you just leave that 12 gauge wire unprotected from the main bus? > > Any comments on the location and usage of the fuse links? > > Also, I'm conflicted about the placement of the primary and secondary engine related items. Any recommendation on which bus to locate the primary ECU, ignition, and fuel pump? > > Thanks for your time and critique. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451945#451945 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electrical system design critique
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 13, 2016
> For the breaker bus feed, would you just leave that 12 gauge wire unprotected from the main bus? The short answer is yes. Ideally every wire should be protected against over current and short circuits. But the consequences of opening a circuit must be considered. In this circuit, over current is not an issue because the circuit breakers protect against that. What about short circuit protection? It depends on the length of the #12 wire and danger of the circuit breaker bus shorting to ground. If good workmanship is used, wires are well supported, and bus is insulated, then I would leave that 15 amp fuse out. But why even have that bus? Connect the alternator field breaker to the main power bus with a short wire. Move the pitch and roll trim circuits to the essential bus and protect them with fuses, not breakers. If a fuse blows, there is a reason. Wait until safely on the ground to troubleshoot. Consider replacing the 15 amp avionics fuse with a fusible link. The DPDT switch, used in series with the diode and used for starter interlock, is unnecessary. If eliminated, it can not break. Notice on Bob's Z-13/8 that there is a fusible link connected to the top of the endurance bus. That fusible link protects the wire (if shorted) above it from current coming from the main power bus. Maybe eliminate the fusible link supplying power to the battery bus. If properly installed and insulated, the battery bus will not short to ground. I would rather take a chance on that #12 wire burning open than have the engine quit because the fusible link failed. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451951#451951 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 13, 2016
Subject: shielded wire
From: Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330(at)gmail.com>
I have a bunch of #20 shielded wire. I there any reason Icannot use it (without grounding the shield) in places like the starter switch where non shielded wire is called for. I was short some some # 20 Tefzel wire and used the shielded. I just cut bcck the shield and put a small piece of heat shrink on it so no chance of it shorting to anything. May seem like a stupid question but I have to ask. I know its probably a waist but I had a lot of it. Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Andy Elliott" <a.s.elliott(at)cox.net>
Subject: Schematic for twin PM alternators
Date: Jan 13, 2016
If the dynamos do not come with a preferred regulator, I would recommend that you look carefully at quality (not no-name Chinese) motorcycle regulators, especially those designed to replace H-D regulators. Good names are Holley (has purchased Acell) and Compu-Fire. Some of these have status outputs that can also be fed to your warning system, if you have one, or just to an idiot light, if desired. These regulators are designed to operate in really poor conditions and have proven quite robust in aviation-related applications. I used one on my Corvair-powered Zodiac 601XL with an 18A John Deere dynamo. I installed it behind the firewall, and used the airframe skin as a heatsink. Andy Elliott ------------------------ Andrew S. Elliott, CFI Servicios Aereos, LLC Dynamic Propeller Balancing, Flight Instruction PH: 720-460-1823 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 13, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Electrical system design critique
> >Good catch on the ANL fuse. I'll put that in. > >For the breaker bus feed, would you just leave that 12 gauge wire >unprotected from the main bus? > >Any comments on the location and usage of the fuse links? Fusible links are SELDOM needed . . . 99% of all your branch circuit protection should be done with fuses/breakers. >Also, I'm conflicted about the placement of the primary and >secondary engine related items. Any recommendation on which bus to >locate the primary ECU, ignition, and fuel pump? Draw up a power distribution diagram . . . or copy one out of Appenedix Z and start assigning system loads to the various busses. Verbal discussions of design philosophy and technique is fraught with opportunity for misunderstanding and error. A drawing says it all . . . in ANY language. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 13, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: shielded wire
At 11:40 AM 1/13/2016, you wrote: >I have a bunch of #20 shielded wire.=C2 I there >any reason Icannot use it (without grounding the >shield) in places like the starter switch where >non shielded wire is called for.=C2 I was short >some some # 20 Tefzel wire and used the >shielded.=C2 I just cut bcck the=C2 shield and put >a small piece of heat shrink on it so no chance >of it shorting to anything.=C2 May seem like a >stupid question but I have to ask. > >I know its probably a waist but I had a lot of it. It won't hurt anything and will function as intended Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 13, 2016
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: Paul Eckenroth <N509RV(at)eckenroth.com>
There are two pairs of wires exiting the accessory case. I believe they are all the same color. I've included pictures to show the schematic included in the instructions and pictures used in a contact magazine article about the engine. I don't want to reinvent the wheel here but would like to make sure I put this together the best way possible, Concerns for me are the generators output to the battery which will be a EarthX Lithium. The ideal charging voltage is 13.9 - 14-6 V with 14.7V the maximum tolerated. I need to know if the TMG-3096 rectifier/regulator is suitable for the job or if there is a better choice available. What do I use to shut things down if the regulator fails. What else do I need to know. Paul On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 5:58 PM, user9253 wrote: > > How many wires come from the alternator, just two or two pairs? Are the > wires marked or color coded? Do you have a picture of the > rectifier/regulator? Can you post the schematic that you have? > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451935#451935 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 13, 2016
Here is a link to an easy to read pdf of the Contact article that Paul mentioned above. http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue80/Issue-80L.pdf Paul, Looking at the Revmaster wiring picture, I am completely stumped. I have no idea how it can work wired that way. It appears that one of the AC wires is connected directly to the battery. And why isn't the second alternator being utilized? Most builders would love to have a second free alternator with no added weight. All I can suggest is to call Revmaster and ask their advice. If they offer no help, then I suggest that you use part of one of Bob Nuckolls' diagrams that contains a Dynamo with over-voltage protection. He offers his book for download free. http://www.aeroelectric.com/Book/AEC_R12A.pdf If you can not figure out how to wire the regulator that you have, I suggest using the MIA881279 regulator available on eBay. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451960#451960 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electrical system design critique
From: "Jump4way" <andydelk(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 13, 2016
First off... thanks to everyone for taking to time to weed through my diagram and offering suggestions. > But why even have that bus? Connect the alternator field breaker to the main power bus with a short wire. Move the pitch and roll trim circuits to the essential bus and protect them with fuses, not breakers. If a fuse blows, there is a reason. Wait until safely on the ground to troubleshoot. > The idea of having the trim on circuit breakers was to have a means of disconnecting the pitch and roll trim in the rare instance of a runaway trim. I suppose a switch could be used for that regard but I thought circuit breakers would be a better way to kill two birds with one stone. I do not intend to have the need to use the circuit breakers as a switch on any type of regular basis. > The DPDT switch, used in series with the diode and used for starter interlock, is unnecessary. If eliminated, it can not break. I was using this switch as a means to disable to avionics bus during engine start along with a means to disable to starter from the pushbutton on the infinity stick during flight in case it were to be inadvertantly pushed. The switch is rated at 15A which might in itself be a point of failure at some point as you suggest with your link regarding avionics busses. > Notice on Bob's Z-13/8 that there is a fusible link connected to the top of the endurance bus. That fusible link protects the wire (if shorted) above it from current coming from the main power bus. I added this to my diagram, thanks for point that out. > Maybe eliminate the fusible link supplying power to the battery bus. If properly installed and insulated, the battery bus will not short to ground. I would rather take a chance on that #12 wire burning open than have the engine quit because the fusible link failed. This was the main fusible link that I was concerned with. I think I'll remove this one as well. The wire run will be well supported and is fairly short. > Draw up a power distribution diagram . . . > or copy one out of Appenedix Z and > start assigning system loads to the > various busses. That's what I'm trying to do with the diagram I have uploaded. I know it's not CAD quality but will it not suffice for these discussions and for future reference? > Verbal discussions of design philosophy > and technique is fraught with opportunity > for misunderstanding and error. A drawing > says it all . . . in ANY language. > Good advice. I'm trying my best but just as soon as I feel like I am getting the idea, something is said that adds confusion. and example is the following: > Fusible links are SELDOM needed . . . 99% > of all your branch circuit protection should > be done with fuses/breakers. As a new builder, I find it challenging to determine where they are recommended and where they are not. Your book does make mention that they should be used primarily in low amerpage circuits so that must be where I am going wrong with some of my decisions. On the other hand, I read things such as using an inline fuse for some of the same situations can be unreliable as fuses blow at a faster rate. Attached is an updated version of the schematic with a couple of the recommended changes. Any additional advice is appreciated. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451961#451961 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/z1320_efii_5_121.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electrical system design critique
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 13, 2016
Having a switch to disable the stick grip start button is a good idea. But disabling the avionics bus is not necessary and introduces a failure point. Notice that none of Bob's diagrams have a switch in series with the diode that feeds the E-Bus. Did you mean to insert an 18 AWG fuselink, not 20 AWG? If the avionics bus has a few extra fuse slots, the aux input could be back fed through a fuse instead of using a fusible link. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451962#451962 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 13, 2016
Agree that contacting Revmaster is the best 1st action. Ask for a real schematic, in addition to the hookup cartoon. But the way I read the drawing, they are showing 1/2 the system, with the other half 'implied'. It looks like the alternator is wired to operate single phase, with one end of the coil (actually three coils; unknown whether they are series or parallel) having one end ground referenced and the other feeding a diode contained within the regulator. The 'bat pos 12v DC' lead is likely 14v, otherwise it won't charge the battery. The book Joe references has a drawing that shows how to set up overvoltage protection. On 1/13/2016 7:38 PM, user9253 wrote: > > Here is a link to an easy to read pdf of the Contact article that Paul mentioned above. > http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue80/Issue-80L.pdf > Paul, > Looking at the Revmaster wiring picture, I am completely stumped. I have no idea how it can work wired that way. It appears that one of the AC wires is connected directly to the battery. And why isn't the second alternator being utilized? Most builders would love to have a second free alternator with no added weight. All I can suggest is to call Revmaster and ask their advice. If they offer no help, then I suggest that you use part of one of Bob Nuckolls' diagrams that contains a Dynamo with over-voltage protection. He offers his book for download free. > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Book/AEC_R12A.pdf > If you can not figure out how to wire the regulator that you have, I suggest using the MIA881279 regulator available on eBay. > > -------- > Joe Gores > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 13, 2016
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: wrbyars(at)aol.com
I think you sent me this by mistake I don't know what you're talking about On Jan 13, 2016 9:58 PM, Charlie England wrote: > > > Agree that contacting Revmaster is the best 1st action. Ask for a real > schematic, in addition to the hookup cartoon. But the way I read the > drawing, they are showing 1/2 the system, with the other half 'implied'. > It looks like the alternator is wired to operate single phase, with one > end of the coil (actually three coils; unknown whether they are series > or parallel) having one end ground referenced and the other feeding a > diode contained within the regulator. The 'bat pos 12v DC' lead is > likely 14v, otherwise it won't charge the battery. > > The book Joe references has a drawing that shows how to set up > overvoltage protection. > > On 1/13/2016 7:38 PM, user9253 wrote: > > > > Here is a link to an easy to read pdf of the Contact article that Paul mentioned above. > > http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue80/Issue-80L.pdf > > Paul, > > Looking at the Revmaster wiring picture, I am completely stumped. I have no idea how it can work wired that way. It appears that one of the AC wires is connected directly to the battery. And why isn't the second alternator being utilized? Most builders would love to have a second free alternator with no added weight. All I can suggest is to call Revmaster and ask their advice. If they offer no help, then I suggest that you use part of one of Bob Nuckolls' diagrams that contains a Dynamo with over-voltage protection. He offers his book for download free. > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Book/AEC_R12A.pdf > > If you can not figure out how to wire the regulator that you have, I suggest using the MIA881279 regulator available on eBay. > > > > -------- > > Joe Gores > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electrical system design critique
From: Rick Beebe <richard.beebe(at)yale.edu>
Date: Jan 14, 2016
On 01/13/2016 09:15 PM, Jump4way wrote: >> The DPDT switch, used in series with the diode and used for starter >> interlock, is unnecessary. If eliminated, it can not break. > > > I was using this switch as a means to disable to avionics bus during > engine start along with a means to disable to starter from the > pushbutton on the infinity stick during flight in case it were to be > inadvertantly pushed. The switch is rated at 15A which might in > itself be a point of failure at some point as you suggest with your > link regarding avionics busses. I never understood the point of installing the starter button on the stick. It's a button that gets used once per flight so why put it some place so easy to hit in flight? To me it's kind of like driving with your hand on the key all the time. --Rick ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electrical system design critique
From: "Jump4way" <andydelk(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 14, 2016
> Having a switch to disable the stick grip start button is a good idea. But disabling the avionics bus is not necessary and introduces a failure point. Yeah, I guess part of the idea with having an avionics switch was to have to turn something on after engine start which also disables the stick mounted starter switch. I'll do a bit more thinking on that one. > Did you mean to insert an 18 AWG fuselink, not 20 AWG? I chose 18 AWG for the fuselink as that was 4 wire sizes smaller from the 14 AWG that I have tying the main bus to the avionics bus. Is that not the correct way of thinking? > If the avionics bus has a few extra fuse slots, the aux input could be back fed through a fuse instead of using a fusible link. As of right now, the avionics bus has a couple of open slots. I was hoping to keep that open for future expansion is possible though. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451976#451976 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electrical system design critique
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 14, 2016
> I chose 18 AWG for the fuselink as that was 4 wire sizes smaller from the 14 AWG Yeah, but you put "20" on the latest schematic. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451977#451977 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electrical system design critique
From: "Jump4way" <andydelk(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 14, 2016
Oh... That fusible link. I think I might have taken one of Bob's drawing too literally. That's what it shows on the z13/8 in my version of aeroelectric connect. A 20 AWG fusible link for a 14 AWG wire. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451978#451978 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/image_143.png ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 14, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
At 09:58 PM 1/13/2016, you wrote: > > >Agree that contacting Revmaster is the best 1st action. Ask for a >real schematic, in addition to the hookup cartoon. But the way I >read the drawing, they are showing 1/2 the system, with the other >half 'implied'. Agreed . . . I'm not sure 'we know what we don't know' about this system. I've e-mailed Revmaster requesting copies of the installation manuals for their full line of products for l my library. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 14, 2016
From: Bill Settle <billsettle(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Electrical system design critique
HOTAS.....=C2- and with VPX it is automatically disabled after engine sta rt so you can hit it all you want in flight. From: Rick Beebe <richard.beebe(at)yale.edu> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 10:52 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Electrical system design critique > On 01/13/2016 09:15 PM, Jump4way wrote: >> The DPDT switch, used in series with the diode and used for starter >> interlock, is unnecessary. If eliminated, it can not break. > > > I was using this switch as a means to disable to avionics bus during > engine start along with a means to disable to starter from the > pushbutton on the infinity stick during flight in case it were to be > inadvertantly pushed. The switch is rated at 15A which might in > itself be a point of failure at some point as you suggest with your > link regarding avionics busses. I never understood the point of installing the starter button on the stick. It's a button that gets used once per flight so why put it some place so easy to hit in flight? To me it's kind of like driving with your hand on the key all the time. --Rick =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - S - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 14, 2016
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: Paul Eckenroth <N509RV(at)eckenroth.com>
Joe Thanks for the links. I see a number of schematics for PM alternator based systems. I need to study each and then make a list of components and questions. I'm sure that what I need will be based on what has already been done. Charlie is right that the other alternator hook up is same as what is shown. Bob is asking about manuals. I don't think that either Sonex or Revmaster has manuals beyond the very basic. I believe they both use a non-adjustable rectifier/regulator with no further controls other than fuse and switch. Paul On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 4:03 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 09:58 PM 1/13/2016, you wrote: > > ceengland7(at)gmail.com> > > Agree that contacting Revmaster is the best 1st action. Ask for a real > schematic, in addition to the hookup cartoon. But the way I read the > drawing, they are showing 1/2 the system, with the other half 'implied'. > > > Agreed . . . I'm not sure 'we know what we don't know' about > this system. I've e-mailed Revmaster requesting copies of the > installation manuals for their full line of products for > l my library. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electrical system design critique
From: "Jump4way" <andydelk(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 14, 2016
Oh... That fusible link. I think I might have taken one of Bob's drawing too literally. That's what it shows on the z13/8 in my version of aeroelectric connect. A 20 AWG fusible link for a 14 AWG wire. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451990#451990 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/image_452.png ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 15, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
At 04:02 PM 1/14/2016, you wrote: >Joe =C2 Thanks for the links.=C2 I see a number of >schematics for PM alternator based systems.=C2 I >need to study each and then make a list of >components and questions.=C2 I'm sure that what I >need will be based on what has already been >done.=C2 Charlie is right that the other >alternator hook up is same as what is >shown.=C2 Bob is asking about manuals.=C2 I don't >think that either Sonex or Revmaster has manuals >beyond the very basic.=C2 I believe they both use >a non-adjustable rectifier/regulator with no >further controls other than fuse and switch. =C2 It appears that Revmaster has incorporated TWO stator windings not unlike those on the Rotax 912/914. Further, I read references to alternator outputs of 18A and 18A, and 30A in another place. When offering this 'novel' product, it is incumbent on the producer to describe its capabilities, limits and recommended integration techniques. It's pretty cool that the manufacturer has been able to up-size their DC generation capabilities . . . the 912/914 has been sota gasping for watts since day-one. On the other hand, just how one integrates TWO separate sources is unclear. Does anyone on the List have a factory installation manual for this engine? Those excerpts in Contact are, as some have noted, more confusing than illuminating. I will suggest that studying anything published in the 'Connection will be of limited value until we understand exactly what's installed on the engine and how the manufacturer intended that it be used. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 15, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Electrical system design critique
At 08:51 PM 1/14/2016, you wrote: > >Oh... That fusible link. I think I might have taken one of Bob's >drawing too literally. That's what it shows on the z13/8 in my >version of aeroelectric connect. A 20 AWG fusible link for a 14 AWG wire. In ONE PLACE ONLY . . . the extension of the main bus to the crowbar OV breaker . . . and this only in some sense of deference to design philosophies on TC aircraft. I may remove all references to fusible links in Rev 13 . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 15, 2016
Attached is a drawing that I made of a possible way to wire the Revmaster dynamo. It is based on limited information available about the Revmaster. Suggestions and criticism welcome (as long as you are not too hard on me). :-) -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452004#452004 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/revmaster_317.dwg http://forums.matronics.com//files/revmaster_133.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 15, 2016
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: Paul Eckenroth <N509RV(at)eckenroth.com>
I do have the Revmaster installation manual and the picture previously sent of the stator connections to the rectifier/regulator is the only reference to wiring the alternators. I believe it is intended that both alternators feed the battery at the same time. I do have a few questions: What is the downside of both alternators connected to the battery at the same time. What is the purpose of the capacitor. If the crowbar disconnects a generator from the battery what happens. Is there any harm to the generator. Paul On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 04:02 PM 1/14/2016, you wrote: > > Joe =C3=82 Thanks for the links.=C3=82 I see a number of schematics for PM > alternator based systems.=C3=82 I need to study each and then make a lis t of > components and questions.=C3=82 I'm sure that what I need will be based on what > has already been done.=C3=82 Charlie is right that the other alternator hook up > is same as what is shown.=C3=82 Bob is asking about manuals.=C3=82 I do n't think > that either Sonex or Revmaster has manuals beyond the very basic.=C3=82 I > believe they both use a non-adjustable rectifier/regulator with no furthe r > controls other than fuse and switch. =C3=82 > > > It appears that Revmaster has incorporated > TWO stator windings not unlike those on the > Rotax 912/914. Further, I read references > to alternator outputs of 18A and 18A, and 30A > in another place. > > When offering this 'novel' product, it is > incumbent on the producer to describe its > capabilities, limits and recommended > integration techniques. > > It's pretty cool that the manufacturer > has been able to up-size their DC generation > capabilities . . . the 912/914 has been > sota gasping for watts since day-one. On > the other hand, just how one integrates > TWO separate sources is unclear. > > Does anyone on the List have a factory > installation manual for this engine? Those > excerpts in Contact are, as some have noted, > more confusing than illuminating. > > I will suggest that studying anything published > in the 'Connection will be of limited value > until we understand exactly what's installed > on the engine and how the manufacturer intended > that it be used. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 15, 2016
> What is the downside of both alternators connected to the battery at the same time. If the outputs from both alternators are exactly in phase with each other, then I suppose that they could be connected in parallel to a rectifier/regulator. The alternators may very well be in phase (if the wires are not connected backwards) because they are excited by the same rotating magnets. I do not understand how the alternators are connected to the rectifier/regulator in the picture that you posted. AC voltage can not be connected directly to a battery. The AC needs to be rectified and regulated first. The alternator coils can be damaged if not wired correctly. The trial and error method should not be used. > What is the purpose of the capacitor. The output voltage from a rectifier/regulator is pulsing DC. A capacitor tries to smooth out the pulses. A flywheel on an engine is analogous to a capacitor in a circuit. They each smooth out pulses. > If the crowbar disconnects a generator from the battery what happens. Is there any harm to the generator. I do not think so, but will leave that for others to answer. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452010#452010 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 16, 2016
Interesting blog about connecting home generators in parallel: http://yarchive.net/car/rv/generator_synchronization.html Most of the cautions and concerns described in that blog do not apply to the Revmaster alternator because the relative speed (frequency & voltage) and phase angle between the two windings never changes, due to the common permanent-magnet field. Before connecting the Revmaster alternator windings in parallel, it must be determined that the two windings are in phase and not out of phase. The blog describes how to do that. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452026#452026 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
> I will suggest that studying anything published > in the 'Connection will be of limited value > until we understand exactly what's installed > on the engine and how the manufacturer intended > that it be used. All creative endeavors boil down to two avenues of study. Whether you're crafting a new dish in the kitchen or designing a new engine, it all comes down to properties of materials and management of energy. The energy considerations for the Revmaster dual alternator windings includes questions like are the two outputs in phase with each other? Are they the same magnitude? If so, the system integrator might consider simply paralleling the two windings and feeding them into a VERY robust rectifier-regulator . . . I think there are some small tractor products that are rated in the 30-35A class . . . a pair of 18A stators would challenge such a device . . . if they even exist. A low-risk approach would be to treat the two as separate alternators each fitted with its own r-r. Okay, now you have to decide if the two outputs will be simply paralled to the same bus . . . or perhaps configured as a 'mini- Z14" system. One of the two might drive the main battery . . . the second could be paired with a similar or smaller battery. A energy study on installed dual alternators would explore whether they are sufficiently matched to simply parallel to a single battery/ bus. This is probably the most attractive option for a small airplane. You would want to load the system well into the upper regions of capability and check to see that both systems do a reasonable job of sharing loads. Revmaster probably has test stands where they can run a fully appointed engine. THEY of all individuals are BEST situated to ponder these and other questions. The answers would illuminate the path to one or more practical ways their product can be integrated into OBAM aircraft . . . I'll rattle their cage a bit and see if they have already done any studies . . . or are prepared to do them. Once that engine is bolted to an TC airplane, the $time$ to develop the optimal system goes up by a factor of four to twenty times. In OBAM aviation, it's worse. TC aircraft fixes can be propagated through the fleet with some order of dispatch . . . The OBAM community might re-invent the same or similar wheels over and over again. A needless and perhaps even hazardous waste of time, talent and resources. This is not a new thing nor is it unique to OBAM aviation. Companies I've worked for have suffered $millions$ in expense and untold damage to customer loyalty doing development work on fielded aircraft . . . it never turns out well. Note to Revmaster . . . NOW is the time guys . . . YOU need to be doing this . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2016
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: Paul Eckenroth <N509RV(at)eckenroth.com>
I don't understand the comment about the two generators being in or out of phase. If they are both run through a rectifier.regulator wouldn't that eliminate the phase concern. I looked at a schematic for a Lockwood AirCam. This has two Rotax engines each with magneto, rectifier/regulator, and capacitor all tied into one battery. Paul On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 8:22 PM, user9253 wrote: > > > > What is the downside of both alternators connected to the battery at the > same time. > > If the outputs from both alternators are exactly in phase with each other, > then I suppose that they could be connected in parallel to a > rectifier/regulator. The alternators may very well be in phase (if the > wires are not connected backwards) because they are excited by the same > rotating magnets. I do not understand how the alternators are connected to > the rectifier/regulator in the picture that you posted. AC voltage can not > be connected directly to a battery. The AC needs to be rectified and > regulated first. The alternator coils can be damaged if not wired > correctly. The trial and error method should not be used. > > > What is the purpose of the capacitor. > > The output voltage from a rectifier/regulator is pulsing DC. A capacitor > tries to smooth out the pulses. A flywheel on an engine is analogous to a > capacitor in a circuit. They each smooth out pulses. > > > If the crowbar disconnects a generator from the battery what happens. > Is there any harm to the generator. > > I do not think so, but will leave that for others to answer. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452010#452010 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 16, 2016
You are right Paul. If each generator has its own rectifier, there is no concern about phase. But the picture that you posted appears to show an alternating current (AC) wire connected to the battery. Without more information, I would NOT go by that picture. Nor would I connect an AC wire from each alternator winding to the battery. Can you provide a link to the schematic for the Lockwood AirCam? Wiring your alternator according to that schematic might be the way to go. A schematic is better than a confusing picture. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452035#452035 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2016
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: Paul Eckenroth <N509RV(at)eckenroth.com>
Joe. I think you may be taking the picture too literally. I would think the connector is hiding cross circuitry. But then this is the first rectifier/regulator representation I've seen that relies on two wire connection. As I read more about PM alternators and the required rectifier/regulator when used in aircraft it seems the weak link is the regulator. So what happens when the regulator goes bad. Do you get a high voltage spike into the battery and avionics. If you add a crowbar to counter this. Do you cut the feed after the regulator or possibly the AC feed before the regulator. The AirCam schematic is not on line. But it seems very basic to me utilizing a rectifier/regulator plus capacitor for each engine and both into a single battery with a single master switch and solenoid. Paul On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 2:36 PM, user9253 wrote: > > You are right Paul. If each generator has its own rectifier, there is no > concern about phase. But the picture that you posted appears to show an > alternating current (AC) wire connected to the battery. Without more > information, I would NOT go by that picture. Nor would I connect an AC > wire from each alternator winding to the battery. > Can you provide a link to the schematic for the Lockwood AirCam? Wiring > your alternator according to that schematic might be the way to go. A > schematic is better than a confusing picture. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452035#452035 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 16, 2016
Exactly. The only issue is if the total load significantly exceeds the rating of one side, in which case you need to know whether they can 'share' the load, as Bob mentioned. On 1/16/2016 12:52 PM, Paul Eckenroth wrote: > I don't understand the comment about the two generators being in or > out of phase. If they are both run through a rectifier.regulator > wouldn't that eliminate the phase concern. > I looked at a schematic for a Lockwood AirCam. This has two Rotax > engines each with magneto, rectifier/regulator, and capacitor all tied > into one battery. > > Paul > > On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 8:22 PM, user9253 > wrote: > > > > > > > What is the downside of both alternators connected to the > battery at the same time. > > If the outputs from both alternators are exactly in phase with > each other, then I suppose that they could be connected in > parallel to a rectifier/regulator. The alternators may very well > be in phase (if the wires are not connected backwards) because > they are excited by the same rotating magnets. I do not > understand how the alternators are connected to the > rectifier/regulator in the picture that you posted. AC voltage > can not be connected directly to a battery. The AC needs to be > rectified and regulated first. The alternator coils can be > damaged if not wired correctly. The trial and error method should > not be used. > > > What is the purpose of the capacitor. > > The output voltage from a rectifier/regulator is pulsing DC. A > capacitor tries to smooth out the pulses. A flywheel on an engine > is analogous to a capacitor in a circuit. They each smooth out > pulses. > > > If the crowbar disconnects a generator from the battery what > happens. Is there any harm to the generator. > > I do not think so, but will leave that for others to answer. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452010#452010 > > > ========== > br> fts!) > r> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > ========== > - > Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ========== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Subject: AEC 12A z diagrams cropped??
Date: Jan 16, 2016
Bob, A non-list-member over at another forum just asked about the diagrams in rev12A being 'cropped'. I just downloaded it, and it does appear to be true. Ex: z-10.8 first page to 2nd page appears ok, but 2nd page right edge cuts off all the symbols. Can you take a look to see if there's a problem with the drawings? Thanks, Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 16, 2016
I agree; the drawing looks like a simple half-wave rectifier combined with the regulator. Not the most efficient concept, but tying one end of the coil to ground would be normal in that case. OV protection on PM alternators is usually with a relay in series with the output that *opens* to protect the avionics; a true 'crowbar' across the output would take a really big shorting device and tripping a really big circuit breaker. (There's no 'field' winding available to open.) On 1/16/2016 2:46 PM, Paul Eckenroth wrote: > Joe. I think you may be taking the picture too literally. I would > think the connector is hiding cross circuitry. But then this is the > first rectifier/regulator representation I've seen that relies on two > wire connection. As I read more about PM alternators and the required > rectifier/regulator when used in aircraft it seems the weak link is > the regulator. So what happens when the regulator goes bad. Do you > get a high voltage spike into the battery and avionics. If you add a > crowbar to counter this. Do you cut the feed after the regulator or > possibly the AC feed before the regulator. > The AirCam schematic is not on line. But it seems very basic to me > utilizing a rectifier/regulator plus capacitor for each engine and > both into a single battery with a single master switch and solenoid. > > Paul > > On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 2:36 PM, user9253 > wrote: > > > > > You are right Paul. If each generator has its own rectifier, > there is no concern about phase. But the picture that you posted > appears to show an alternating current (AC) wire connected to the > battery. Without more information, I would NOT go by that > picture. Nor would I connect an AC wire from each alternator > winding to the battery. > Can you provide a link to the schematic for the Lockwood > AirCam? Wiring your alternator according to that schematic might > be the way to go. A schematic is better than a confusing picture. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452035#452035 > > > ========== > br> fts!) > r> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > ========== > - > Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ========== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 16, 2016
> Joe. I think you may be taking the picture too literally. You may be right. And you are right about the regulator being the weak link. Many of them made for the Rotax have failed. The alternator is unlikely to fail because it has no moving parts except for the permanent magnets that are attached to the flywheel. The magnets will not stop spinning unless the engine stops first, then you have bigger problems. Usually when the regulator fails, the voltage drops. But it would be prudent to be prepared for other failure modes like shorts to ground or over-voltage. That is why my schematic in a previous post has the relays interrupting power to the regulator DC output, to isolate a regulator that is shorted to ground from the other regulator. If the Revmaster had only one alternator, then switching the AC would be a more elegant way to cut charging power. Unless your Onex will be flown IFR, using only one alternator at a time should supply enough power. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452045#452045 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2016
From: ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
Hi All; Please allow a 75 year old from New England, the home of sarcastic humor, to note: So many e-mails entitled; "Schematic for Twin PM Alternators." So few schematics actually presented. I have two identical 12 V, 20 amp permanent magnet, internally regulated alternators for which I have not yet developed a schematic. That's why I'm interested. Cheers! Stu. ----- Original Message ----- From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 2:54:43 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators > Joe. I think you may be taking the picture too literally. You may be right. And you are right about the regulator being the weak link. Many of them made for the Rotax have failed. The alternator is unlikely to fail because it has no moving parts except for the permanent magnets that are attached to the flywheel. The magnets will not stop spinning unless the engine stops first, then you have bigger problems. Usually when the regulator fails, the voltage drops. But it would be prudent to be prepared for other failure modes like shorts to ground or over-voltage. That is why my schematic in a previous post has the relays interrupting power to the regulator DC output, to isolate a regulator that is shorted to ground from the other regulator. If the Revmaster had only one alternator, then switching the AC would be a more elegant way to cut charging power. Unless your Onex will be flown IFR, using only one alternator at a time should supply enough power. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452045#452045 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 16, 2016
> >Hi All; >Please allow a 75 year old from New England, the home of sarcastic >humor, to note: >So many e-mails entitled; "Schematic for Twin PM Alternators." So few >schematics actually presented. >I have two identical 12 V, 20 amp permanent magnet, internally >regulated alternators for which I have not yet developed a schematic. >That's why I'm interested. >Cheers! Stu. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> >To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 2:54:43 PM >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators > > >> Joe. I think you may be taking the picture too literally. > >You may be right. >And you are right about the regulator being the weak link. >Many of them made for the Rotax have failed. The alternator is >unlikely to fail because it has no moving parts except for the >permanent magnets that are attached to the flywheel. The >magnets will not stop spinning unless the engine stops first, >then you have bigger problems. Usually when the regulator >fails, the voltage drops. But it would be prudent to be >prepared for other failure modes like shorts to ground or >over-voltage. That is why my schematic in a previous post has >the relays interrupting power to the regulator DC output, to isolate >a regulator that is shorted to ground from the other regulator. >If the Revmaster had only one alternator, then switching the AC >would be a more elegant way to cut charging power. >Unless your Onex will be flown IFR, using only one alternator at >a time should supply enough power. > >-------- >Joe Gores > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452045#452045 > > Hi Stu, What brand/model are they? I've never seen a PM alt with an internal regulator. I'd be interested in one as a backup. Thanks, Charlie -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 16, 2016
Hi Stu! What kind of engine and alternators do you have. It will be interesting to see the schematic that you develop. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452050#452050 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2016
Subject: Re: Azul sunset, Ojochal
From: Ron Raby <ronr(at)advanceddesign.com>
SXRzIHRoZSBoZWF0LCBpIHRoaW5rCgoKU2VudCBmcm9tIG15IFNwcmludCBTYW1zdW5nIEdhbGF4 eSBTwq4gNi4tLS0tLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBtZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tLS0tRnJvbTogamFuIFJleW5v bGRzIDxqcmV5bm8xMDYwQGFvbC5jb20+IERhdGU6IDAxLzE2LzIwMTYgIDQ6MzQgUE0gIChHTVQt MDY6MDApIFRvOiBSb24gUmFieSA8cm9uckBhZHZhbmNlZGRlc2lnbi5jb20+IENjOiBFbGl6YWJl dGggRm9zc2V0dCA8ZWxpemFiZXRoZm9zc2V0dEB5YWhvby5jb20+IFN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBBenVs IHN1bnNldCwgT2pvY2hhbCAKVGhhbmsgeW91IMKgZm9yIHNlbmRpbmcgdGhpcyEgU28gZ2xhZCBJ IGhhdmUgdGhpcyBtZW1lbnRvIG9mIHRoZSBmdW4gbmlnaHQhISBHcmVhdCBjaG9pY2VzISBCdXQg SSBtdXN0IGJlIGdldHRpbmcgb2xkIEkgcmVhbGx5IG5lZWRlZCBhIG5hcCB0b2RheSHCoAoKU2Vu dCBmcm9tIG15IGlQaG9uZQpPbiBKYW4gMTYsIDIwMTYsIGF0IDE6NDkgUE0sIFJvbiBSYWJ5IDxy b25yQGFkdmFuY2VkZGVzaWduLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6CgoKCgoKU2VudCBmcm9tIG15IFNwcmludCBT YW1zdW5nIEdhbGF4eSBTwq4gNi48MjAxNjAxMTVfMTc1NzA1X3Jlc2l6ZWQuanBnPg= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2016
From: ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
Hi Charlie; For a start get on EBAY and input: "Permanent Magnet PM Alternator Fits Isuzu" It should come up as the first item listed. The manufacturer is named "LActrical". These units are most likely built in China, so you have to accommodate your fears, expectations, prejudices, if any, to that. (My personal belief is that there is a range of quality being manufactured in China ranging from terrible to excellent.) These units appear to be well made, but I have not run them yet.=C2- Once you know what you are looking for, you can probably get the cost down to a bout $75.=C2- Note that the internally regulated ones have a black plasti c infill on the back side.=C2- If it looks hollow back there, it is the e xternally regulated version.=C2- Knowing this allows a quick visual sorti ng as you scroll down the various EBAY and Amazon offerings. Cheers! (and good luck):=C2-=C2- Stu. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 9:26:25 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators Hi All; Please allow a 75 year old from New England, the home of sarcastic humor, t o note: So many e-mails entitled; "Schematic for Twin PM Alternators." So few sche matics actually presented. I have two identical 12 V, 20 amp permanent magnet, internally regulated al ternators for which I have not yet developed a schematic. That's why I'm interested. Cheers! Stu. ----- Original Message ----- From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 2:54:43 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
Joe. I think you ma y be taking the picture too literally. You may be right. And you are right about the regulator being the weak link. Many of them made for the Rotax have failed. The alternator is unlikely to fail because it has no moving parts except for the permanent magnets that are attached to the flywheel. The magnets will not stop spinning unless the engine stops first, then you have bigger problems. Usually when the regulator fails, the voltage drops. But it would be prudent to be prepared for other failure modes like shorts to ground or over-voltage. That is why my schematic in a previous post has the relays interrupting power to the regulator DC output, to isolate a regulator that is shorted to ground from the other regulator. If the Revmaster had only one alternator, then switching the AC would be a more elegant way to cut charging power. Unless your Onex will be flown IFR, using on ly one > http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Hi Stu, What brand/model are they? I've never seen a PM alt with an internal regula tor. I'd be interested in one as a backup. Thanks, Charlie -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2016
From: ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
Hi Joe; I don't have a schematic yet. I was hoping to encounter one during the ongoing discussion. The manufacturer is "LActrical." If you get on EBAY and input "Permanent Magnet PM Alternator Fits Isuzu", one of these should be the first item listed. Once you know what you are looking for, you can get the price down to about $75 on EBAY or Amazon. Full disclosure: Although the quality looks good, I have not run mine yet. Cheers! Stu. ----- Original Message ----- From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 11:34:27 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators Hi Stu! What kind of engine and alternators do you have. It will be interesting to see the schematic that you develop. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452050#452050 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AEC 12A z diagrams cropped??
At 04:00 PM 1/16/2016, you wrote: > > >Bob, > >A non-list-member over at another forum just asked about the >diagrams in rev12A being 'cropped'. I just downloaded it, and it >does appear to be true. Ex: z-10.8 first page to 2nd page appears >ok, but 2nd page right edge cuts off all the symbols. > >Can you take a look to see if there's a problem with the drawings? > >Thanks, > >Charlie Got a direct e-mail from the gentleman. Appendix Z in the .pdf copy of the 'connection has be repaired. Of course, the orginals are always available on the website as well. Thanks for the heads-up! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
At 04:54 PM 1/16/2016, you wrote: > > > > Joe. I think you may be taking the picture too literally. > >You may be right. >And you are right about the regulator being the weak link. >Many of them made for the Rotax have failed. That situation along with R/R assemblies for B&C products is being evaluated. We'll have more robust recommendations for virtually all OBAM aircraft PM alternator installations. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2016
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Thanks for the link. From memory, the pic looks like they've just bolted a rectifier/regulator to the back of a typical John Deer/Kubota style PM alternator. I wonder if the regulator is available separately. Also wonder if it's a shunt style or switcher. Charlie On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 10:17 AM, wrote: > Hi Charlie; > For a start get on EBAY and input: > "Permanent Magnet PM Alternator Fits Isuzu" > It should come up as the first item listed. > The manufacturer is named "LActrical". > These units are most likely built in China, so you have to accommodate > your fears, expectations, prejudices, if any, to that. > (My personal belief is that there is a range of quality being manufactured > in China ranging from terrible to excellent.) > These units appear to be well made, but I have not run them yet. Once you > know what you are looking for, you can probably get the cost down to about > $75. Note that the internally regulated ones have a black plastic infill > on the back side. If it looks hollow back there, it is the externally > regulated version. Knowing this allows a quick visual sorting as you > scroll down the various EBAY and Amazon offerings. > Cheers! (and good luck): Stu. > > ------------------------------ > *From: *"Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> > *To: *aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Sent: *Saturday, January 16, 2016 9:26:25 PM > *Subject: *Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators > >> >> >> >> Hi All; >> Please allow a 75 year old from New England, the home of sarcastic humor, to note: >> So many e-mails entitled; "Schematic for Twin PM Alternators." So few schematics actually presented. >> I have two identical 12 V, 20 amp permanent magnet, internally regulated alternators for which I have not yet developed a schematic. >> That's why I'm interested. >> Cheers! Stu. >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> >> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 2:54:43 PM >> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators >> >> >> >> >> >> Joe. I think you ma y be taking the picture too literally. >>> >> >> You may be right. >> And you are right about the regulator being the weak link. >> Many of them made for the Rotax have failed. The alternator is >> unlikely to fail because it has no moving parts except for the >> permanent magnets that are attached to the flywheel. The >> magnets will not stop spinning unless the engine stops first, >> then you have bigger problems. Usually when the regulator >> fails, the voltage drops. But it would be prudent to be >> prepared for other failure modes like shorts to ground or >> over-voltage. That is why my schematic in a previous post has >> the relays interrupting power to the regulator DC output, to isolate >> a regulator that is shorted to ground from the other regulator. >> If the Revmaster had only one alternator, then switching the AC >> would be a more elegant way to cut charging power. >> Unless your Onex will be flown IFR, using on >> ly one >> > http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> >> > Hi Stu, > > What brand/model are they? I've never seen a PM alt with an internal > regulator. I'd be interested in one as a backup. > > Thanks, > > Charlie > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 17, 2016
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
Did that overhauled over voltage protection module ever come to fruition? On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 8:11 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 04:54 PM 1/16/2016, you wrote: > > > > Joe. I think you may be taking the picture too literally. > > You may be right. > And you are right about the regulator being the weak link. > Many of them made for the Rotax have failed. > > > That situation along with R/R assemblies > for B&C products is being evaluated. We'll > have more robust recommendations for virtually > all OBAM aircraft PM alternator installations. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2016
From: ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
Hi Charlie; Well, the regulator is bonded=C2- (plastic cast in place?) to the back si de, not bolted.=C2- It doesn't look like it can be easily separated, shou ld you want to replace it, or mount it remotely. Cheers!=C2-=C2- Stu. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 9:36:43 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators Thanks for the link. From memory, the pic looks like they've just bolted a rectifier/regulator to the back of a typical John Deer/Kubota style PM alte rnator. I wonder if the regulator is available separately. Also wonder if i t's a shunt style or switcher. Charlie On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 10:17 AM, < ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net > wrote: Hi Charlie; For a start get on EBAY and input: "Permanent Magnet PM Alternator Fits Isuzu" It should come up as the first item listed. The manufacturer is named "LActrical". These units are most likely built in China, so you have to accommodate your fears, expectations, prejudices, if any, to that. (My personal belief is that there is a range of quality being manufactured in China ranging from terrible to excellent.) These units appear to be well made, but I have not run them yet.=C2- Once you know what you are looking for, you can probably get the cost down to a bout $75.=C2- Note that the internally regulated ones have a black plasti c infill on the back side.=C2- If it looks hollow back there, it is the e xternally regulated version.=C2- Knowing this allows a quick visual sorti ng as you scroll down the various EBAY and Amazon offerings. Cheers! (and good luck):=C2-=C2- Stu. From: "Charlie England" < ceengland7(at)gmail.com > Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 9:26:25 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
Hi All; Please allow a 75 year old from New England, the home of sarcastic humor, t o note: So many e-mails entitled; "Schematic for Twin PM Alternators." So few sche matics actually presented. I have two identical 12 V, 20 amp permanent magnet, internally regulated al ternators for which I have not yet developed a schematic. That's why I'm interested. Cheers! Stu. ----- Original Message ----- From: "user9253" < fransew(at)gmail.com > Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 2:54:43 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
Joe. I think you ma y be taking the picture too literally. You may be right. And you are right about the regulator being the weak link. Many of them made for the Rotax have failed. The alternator is unlikely to fail because it has no moving parts except for the permanent magnets that are attached to the flywheel. The magnets will not stop spinning unless the engine stops first, then you have bigger problems. Usually when the regulator fails, the voltage drops. But it would be prudent to be prepared for other failure modes like shorts to ground or over-voltage. That is why my schematic in a previous post has the relays interrupting power to the regulator DC output, to isolate a regulator that is shorted to ground from the other regulator. If the Revmaster had only one alternator, then switching the AC would be a more elegant way to cut charging power. Unless your Onex will be flown IFR, using on ly one > http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Hi Stu, What brand/model are they? I've never seen a PM alt with an internal regula tor. I'd be interested in one as a backup. Thanks, Charlie -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 17, 2016
The listing I found http://www.ebay.com/itm/PERMANENT-MAGNET-PM-ALTERNATOR-Fits-ISUZU-KOKUSAN-DENKI-SMALL-ENG-12VOLT-20AMP-/301651032847?hash=item463bcd7b0f:g:bCUAAOSwstxVbPpU&vxp=mtr shows what looks like a truncated metal disc with the potting material in it, and 2 bolt heads showing in back. I assumed that the entire metal disc including the potted section would unbolt from the dynamo. The bare, unregulated dynamos look more or less like http://www.ebay.com/itm/PERMANENT-MAGNET-PM-ALTERNATOR-Fits-PERKINS-YANMAR-SMALL-ENGINES-12-VOLT-20-AMP-/271888026588?hash=item3f4dca0bdc:g:55IAAOSwBahVbPnp&vxp=mtr I googled 'ISUZU KOKUSAN DENKI wiring diagram' & found http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Permanent-Magnet-Alternator-Kokusan-Denki_252852606.html which basically shows a B lead & ground. Since there's no field winding, you can't depend on the switched ignition line to shut down the alternator, so IMO, you'd still need a series contactor to disconnect the B lead in an OV condition. If the diagram is accurate for your device (and likely is), then you *should* be able to treat it like a black box with a case ground and a B lead (with the L terminal tied through an indicator lamp & switch to the B lead). Charlie On 1/17/2016 12:05 PM, ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net wrote: > Hi Charlie; > Well, the regulator is bonded (plastic cast in place?) to the back > side, not bolted. It doesn't look like it can be easily separated, > should you want to replace it, or mount it remotely. > Cheers! Stu. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From: *"Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> > *To: *aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Sent: *Sunday, January 17, 2016 9:36:43 AM > *Subject: *Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators > > Thanks for the link. From memory, the pic looks like they've just > bolted a rectifier/regulator to the back of a typical John Deer/Kubota > style PM alternator. I wonder if the regulator is available > separately. Also wonder if it's a shunt style or switcher. > > Charlie > > On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 10:17 AM, > wrote: > > Hi Charlie; > For a start get on EBAY and input: > "Permanent Magnet PM Alternator Fits Isuzu" > It should come up as the first item listed. > The manufacturer is named "LActrical". > These units are most likely built in China, so you have to > accommodate your fears, expectations, prejudices, if any, to that. > (My personal belief is that there is a range of quality being > manufactured in China ranging from terrible to excellent.) > These units appear to be well made, but I have not run them yet. > Once you know what you are looking for, you can probably get the > cost down to about $75. Note that the internally regulated ones > have a black plastic infill on the back side. If it looks hollow > back there, it is the externally regulated version. Knowing this > allows a quick visual sorting as you scroll down the various EBAY > and Amazon offerings. > Cheers! (and good luck): Stu. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From: *"Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com > > > *To: *aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > > *Sent: *Saturday, January 16, 2016 9:26:25 PM > *Subject: *Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM > alternators > > wrote: > > > Hi All; > > Please allow a 75 year old from New England, the home of sarcastic humor, to note: > > So many e-mails entitled; "Schematic for Twin PM Alternators." So few schematics actually presented. > > I have two identical 12 V, 20 amp permanent magnet, internally regulated alternators for which I have not yet developed a schematic. > > That's why I'm interested. > > Cheers! Stu. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com <mailto:fransew(at)gmail.com>> > > To:aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > > > Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 2:54:43 PM > > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators > > > Joe. I think you ma y be taking the picture too literally. > > You may be right. > > And you are right about the regulator being the weak link. > > Many of them made for the Rotax have failed. The alternator is > > unlikely to fail because it has no moving parts except for the > > permanent magnets that are attached to the flywheel. The > > magnets will not stop spinning unless the engine stops first, > > then you have bigger problems. Usually when the regulator > > fails, the voltage drops. But it would be prudent to be > > prepared for other failure modes like shorts to ground or > > over-voltage. That is why my schematic in a previous post has > > the relays interrupting power to the regulator DC output, to isolate > > a regulator that is shorted to ground from the other regulator. > > If the Revmaster had only one alternator, then switching the AC > > would be a more elegant way to cut charging power. > > Unless your Onex will be flown IFR, using on > ly one > >http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Hi Stu, > > What brand/model are they? I've never seen a PM alt with an > internal regulator. I'd be interested in one as a backup. > > Thanks, > > Charlie > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2016
From: ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
Hi Charlie; 1.=C2- Well you found the right listing.=C2- I've looked at a few more alternators that are apparently the same animal, minus regulator, and it ap pears you are right.=C2- So you could have your choice: internally regula ted or remotely regulated.=C2- I don't know why all the unregulated units are more than $100!=C2- Plus you have to buy the regulator! 2.=C2- Concerning your second reference, please note it is not exactly as above.=C2- The mounting ears are not directly opposite each other.=C2- This may or may not be a disadvantage, depending on how you intend to moun t it.=C2- I wanted a symmetrical configuration, so I had the option of mo unting facing forward or aft.=C2- (These alternators don't care which way they are rotated.)=C2- As it turns out both my pulleys will be facing fo rward. 3.=C2- Thanks for the reference to the wiring diagram.=C2- I will look further into it for paralleling. two units. Cheers!=C2-=C2- Stu. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 11:59:38 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators The listing I found http://www.ebay.com/itm/PERMANENT-MAGNET-PM-ALTERNATOR-Fits-ISUZU-KOKUSAN-D ENKI-SMALL-ENG-12VOLT-20AMP-/301651032847?hash=item463bcd7b0f:g:bCUAAOSws txVbPpU&vxp=mtr shows what looks like a truncated metal disc with the potting material in i t, and 2 bolt heads showing in back. I assumed that the entire metal disc i ncluding the potted section would unbolt from the dynamo. The bare, unregul ated dynamos look more or less like http://www.ebay.com/itm/PERMANENT-MAGNET-PM-ALTERNATOR-Fits-PERKINS-YANMAR- SMALL-ENGINES-12-VOLT-20-AMP-/271888026588?hash=item3f4dca0bdc:g:55IAAOSw BahVbPnp&vxp=mtr I googled 'ISUZU KOKUSAN DENKI wiring diagram' & found http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Permanent-Magnet-Alternator-Kokusan-D enki_252852606.html which basically shows a B lead & ground. Since there's no field winding, yo u can't depend on the switched ignition line to shut down the alternator, s o IMO, you'd still need a series contactor to disconnect the B lead in an O V condition. If the diagram is accurate for your device (and likely is), then you *shoul d* be able to treat it like a black box with a case ground and a B lead (wi th the L terminal tied through an indicator lamp & switch to the B lead). Charlie On 1/17/2016 12:05 PM, ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net wrote: Hi Charlie; Well, the regulator is bonded=C2- (plastic cast in place?) to the back si de, not bolted.=C2- It doesn't look like it can be easily separated, shou ld you want to replace it, or mount it remotely. Cheers!=C2-=C2- Stu. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 9:36:43 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators Thanks for the link. From memory, the pic looks like they've just bolted a rectifier/regulator to the back of a typical John Deer/Kubota style PM alte rnator. I wonder if the regulator is available separately. Also wonder if i t's a shunt style or switcher. Charlie On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 10:17 AM, < ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net > wrote:
Hi Charlie; For a start get on EBAY and input: "Permanent Magnet PM Alternator Fits Isuzu" It should come up as the first item listed. The manufacturer is named "LActrical". These units are most likely built in China, so you have to accommodate your fears, expectations, prejudices, if any, to that. (My personal belief is that there is a range of quality being manufactured in China ranging from terrible to excellent.) These units appear to be well made, but I have not run them yet.=C2- Once you know what you are looking for, you can probably get the cost down to a bout $75.=C2- Note that the internally regulated ones have a black plasti c infill on the back side.=C2- If it looks hollow back there, it is the e xternally regulated version.=C2- Knowing this allows a quick visual sorti ng as you scroll down the various EBAY and Amazon offerings. Cheers! (and good luck):=C2-=C2- Stu. From: "Charlie England" < ceengland7(at)gmail.com > Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 9:26:25 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
Hi All; Please allow a 75 year old from New England, the home of sarcastic humor, t o note: So many e-mails entitled; "Schematic for Twin PM Alternators." So few sche matics actually presented. I have two identical 12 V, 20 amp permanent magnet, internally regulated al ternators for which I have not yet developed a schematic. That's why I'm interested. Cheers! Stu. ----- Original Message ----- From: "user9253" < fransew(at)gmail.com > 3 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
Joe. I think you ma y be taking the picture too literally. You may be right. And you are right about the regulator being the weak link. Many of them made for the Rotax have failed. The alternator is unlikely to fail because it has no moving parts except for the permanent magnets that are attached to the flywheel. The magnets will not stop spinning unless the engine stops first, then you have bigger problems. Usually when the regulator fails, the voltage drops. But it would be prudent to be prepared for other failure modes like shorts to ground or over-voltage. That is why my schematic in a previous post has the relays interrupting power to the regulator DC output, to isolate a regulator that is shorted to ground from the other regulator. If the Revmaster had only one alternator, then switching the AC would be a more elegant way to cut charging power. Unless your Onex will be flown IFR, using on ly one > http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Hi Stu, What brand/model are they? I've never seen a PM alt with an internal regula tor. I'd be interested in one as a backup. Thanks, Charlie -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
At 11:35 AM 1/17/2016, you wrote: >Did that overhauled over voltage protection module ever come to fruition? Yes . . . its in the que for loading to the B&C production line. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 17, 2016
J.Deere part numbers are AM877557 for the alternator, and AM101406 for the regulator. Unverified info is that the same regulator is also used on a 35 amp alternator. I use a little automotive 40 amp rated cube relay on an AC lead with an crowbar module for overvoltage control and have a C/B on the B lead that could theoretically also be pulled to isolate the regulator from the battery if need be. I also fitted a larger multi-V pulley and around 500 hours I replaced the pulley side ball bearing. Check out Mark Langford's KR2S website for more info. http://www.n56ml.com/ Ken On 17/01/2016 12:36 PM, Charlie England wrote: > Thanks for the link. From memory, the pic looks like they've just > bolted a rectifier/regulator to the back of a typical John Deer/Kubota > style PM alternator. I wonder if the regulator is available > separately. Also wonder if it's a shunt style or switcher. > > Charlie > > On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 10:17 AM, > wrote: > > Hi Charlie; > For a start get on EBAY and input: > "Permanent Magnet PM Alternator Fits Isuzu" > It should come up as the first item listed. > The manufacturer is named "LActrical". > These units are most likely built in China, so you have to > accommodate your fears, expectations, prejudices, if any, to that. > (My personal belief is that there is a range of quality being > manufactured in China ranging from terrible to excellent.) > These units appear to be well made, but I have not run them yet. > Once you know what you are looking for, you can probably get the > cost down to about $75. Note that the internally regulated ones > have a black plastic infill on the back side. If it looks hollow > back there, it is the externally regulated version. Knowing this > allows a quick visual sorting as you scroll down the various EBAY > and Amazon offerings. > Cheers! (and good luck): Stu. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From: *"Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com > > > *To: *aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > > *Sent: *Saturday, January 16, 2016 9:26:25 PM > *Subject: *Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM > alternators > > wrote: > > > Hi All; > Please allow a 75 year old from New England, the home of sarcastic humor, to note: > So many e-mails entitled; "Schematic for Twin PM Alternators." So few schematics actually presented. > I have two identical 12 V, 20 amp permanent magnet, internally regulated alternators for which I have not yet developed a schematic. > That's why I'm interested. > Cheers! Stu. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com <mailto:fransew(at)gmail.com>> > To:aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > > Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 2:54:43 PM > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators > > > Joe. I think you ma y be taking the picture too literally. > > You may be right. > And you are right about the regulator being the weak link. > Many of them made for the Rotax have failed. The alternator is > unlikely to fail because it has no moving parts except for the > permanent magnets that are attached to the flywheel. The > magnets will not stop spinning unless the engine stops first, > then you have bigger problems. Usually when the regulator > fails, the voltage drops. But it would be prudent to be > prepared for other failure modes like shorts to ground or > over-voltage. That is why my schematic in a previous post has > the relays interrupting power to the regulator DC output, to isolate > a regulator that is shorted to ground from the other regulator. > If the Revmaster had only one alternator, then switching the AC > would be a more elegant way to cut charging power. > Unless your Onex will be flown IFR, using on > ly one > >http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Hi Stu, > > What brand/model are they? I've never seen a PM alt with an > internal regulator. I'd be interested in one as a backup. > > Thanks, > > Charlie > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 18, 2016
B & C permanent magnet alternator schematic: http://www.bandc.aero/pdfs/420-506_revb.pdf > Please allow a 75 year old from New England, the home of > sarcastic humor, to note: So many e-mails entitled; "Schematic > for Twin PM Alternators." So few schematics actually presented. OK, I have attached another version. Design considerations: Rectifiers/Regulators get hot. Connecting two alternators to one rectifier/regulator could overheat it (when under heavy load). If the output of two separate rectifier/regulators are connected together, will the load be shared equally or will one be overworked and self destruct? If there is an over-voltage condition, how will the faulty regulator be identified and shut off quickly (in less than one second)? If one charging system fails, will the other one then be overloaded and fail also? Hundreds of Rotax powered aircraft are flying with modern glass panels and LED lighting powered by one 20 amp permanent-magnet dynamo (usually loaded to no more than 80 percent). The Revmaster should be able to do the same using one alternator at a time. An outbound leg can use the left alternator and the inbound leg can use the right alternator. The pilot will know that both systems work and there will always be a backup. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452091#452091 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/revmaster3_492.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 18, 2016
From: ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
Hi Joe; Being internally regulated, each alternator has it's own regulator. I think I will probably wire so that only one is in use at a time. Cheers! Stu. ----- Original Message ----- From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 3:08:51 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators B & C permanent magnet alternator schematic: http://www.bandc.aero/pdfs/420-506_revb.pdf > Please allow a 75 year old from New England, the home of > sarcastic humor, to note: So many e-mails entitled; "Schematic > for Twin PM Alternators." So few schematics actually presented. OK, I have attached another version. Design considerations: Rectifiers/Regulators get hot. Connecting two alternators to one rectifier/regulator could overheat it (when under heavy load). If the output of two separate rectifier/regulators are connected together, will the load be shared equally or will one be overworked and self destruct? If there is an over-voltage condition, how will the faulty regulator be identified and shut off quickly (in less than one second)? If one charging system fails, will the other one then be overloaded and fail also? Hundreds of Rotax powered aircraft are flying with modern glass panels and LED lighting powered by one 20 amp permanent-magnet dynamo (usually loaded to no more than 80 percent). The Revmaster should be able to do the same using one alternator at a time. An outbound leg can use the left alternator and the inbound leg can use the right alternator. The pilot will know that both systems work and there will always be a backup. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452091#452091 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/revmaster3_492.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 19, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
At 10:04 PM 1/18/2016, you wrote: > >Hi Joe; >Being internally regulated, each alternator has it's own >regulator. I think I will probably wire so that only one is in use at a time. >Cheers! Oops! So the design goals do not include simultaneous exploitation of both alternators? How do you plan to use this airplane and how would the twin alternator installation fit into your failure analysis? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 19, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
At 07:25 AM 1/19/2016, you wrote: >At 10:04 PM 1/18/2016, you wrote: >> >>Hi Joe; >>Being internally regulated, each alternator has it's own >>regulator. I think I will probably wire so that only one is in use at a time. >>Cheers! > > Oops! So the design goals do not include > simultaneous exploitation of both alternators? > How do you plan to use this airplane and > how would the twin alternator installation > fit into your failure analysis? Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators At 09:42 PM 1/18/2016, you wrote: >Hi Bob; >1. OK. Amounts to the same thing. >2. Actually I removed the axially driven externally regulated >permanent magnet alternator provided by the engine builder to allow >reinstalling a harmonic balancer, which he did not feel was >necessary. The two belt driven 12V, 20 amp permanent magnet >internally regulated alternators are being provided by me. Seems >odd that no one has done this, but as a retired electro-mechanical >engineer, I will work something out when the time comes. Twin belt driven alternators on an engine is an exceedingly rare configuration . . . in fact . . . I'm not aware of anyone having opted for this arrangement. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened . . . If your goal is to achieve 40A of engine driven capacity, why two separate 20A machines with no known capability for sharing loads when driving a common bus? Why not a little 40A ND alternator with a track record? I've been pondering the twin-stators on the VW variant. It just may be that the two windings ARE driven by the same set of magnets, are the same number of turns and enjoy the same magnetic efficiency for gathering forces from the moving magnets for conversion to electron flow. If that IS the case, I would think that the Revmaster installation would recommend parallel connection of the two windings along with a suggested rectifier-regulator good for 40A. Herein lies the uncertainties. THAT much output from a single phase R-R is hard, every machine of that power output I'm aware of is a three phase output with the best R-R designs going to synchronous field effect rectification to reduce losses. A legacy R-R design is a rather inefficient device that begs good thermal management of dissipated energy. The larger the output, the more energy dissipated . . . and NOT available to run your electro-whizzies. We know that the track record for Ducatti R-R supplied with Rotax 912/914 engines has a spotty track-record . . . and that's only an 18A rated alternator. There are many, much more robust products for upgrading the 18A Rotax system. Those same regulators might be considered for the dual-coil Revmaster system. I don't have any way to drive two PM alternators simultaneously to explore the effectiveness of PARALLELING two alternator-rectifier-regulators to the same bus. I'm not saying it WILL NOT work very nicely . . . I'm just saying I have no practical way to say, "been there, done than, works good, lasts a long time". So you are the pioneering integrator here. When you run the engine the first time, it would be useful/interesting to instrument your new, twin alternator configuration, apply various loads to the system and see how well they share duties for grunting a 40A load. If they parallel to within 10-20% of each other, odds are that your chosen configuration will meet your design goals for a 40A, PM system. The ball is in your court . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Engine mount ground?
From: "rvdave" <rv610dave(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 19, 2016
I'm running a braided ground from firewall/forest of tabs to engine, is it necessary to ground the engine mount? -------- Dave Ford RV6 for sale RV10 building Cadillac, MI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452108#452108 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 19, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Engine mount ground?
At 12:17 PM 1/19/2016, you wrote: > >I'm running a braided ground from firewall/forest of tabs to engine, >is it necessary to ground the engine mount? No. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 19, 2016
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: Paul Eckenroth <N509RV(at)eckenroth.com>
I did what I probably should have done at the beginning and made a list of amperage draw items. The total will allow for the use of one alternator with the other kept in reserve. So Joe's schematic will work for me. Now I have to become comfortable with the ramifications. When the reserve generator is not working due to no power at the IGW terminal what is happening. Is everything dormant associated with that generator or is the generator still cranking away creating heat in the regulator. How about when the crowbar trips. The IGW is still energized. What happens to the regulator/generator. There are two switches that determine which generator is functional. Can those be combined. Thanks for all the help Paul On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 11:02 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 07:25 AM 1/19/2016, you wrote: > > At 10:04 PM 1/18/2016, you wrote: > > > Hi Joe; > Being internally regulated, each alternator has it's own regulator. I > think I will probably wire so that only one is in use at a time. > Cheers! > > > Oops! So the design goals do not include > simultaneous exploitation of both alternators? > How do you plan to use this airplane and > how would the twin alternator installation > fit into your failure analysis? > > > To: ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators > > At 09:42 PM 1/18/2016, you wrote: > > Hi Bob; > 1. OK. Amounts to the same thing. > 2. Actually I removed the axially driven externally regulated permanent > magnet alternator provided by the engine builder to allow reinstalling a > harmonic balancer, which he did not feel was necessary. The two belt > driven 12V, 20 amp permanent magnet internally regulated alternators are > being provided by me. Seems odd that no one has done this, but as a > retired electro-mechanical engineer, I will work something out when the > time comes. > > > Twin belt driven alternators on an engine > is an exceedingly rare configuration . . . in > fact . . . I'm not aware of anyone having > opted for this arrangement. Doesn't mean it > hasn't happened . . . > > If your goal is to achieve 40A of engine > driven capacity, why two separate 20A machines > with no known capability for sharing loads > when driving a common bus? Why not a little > 40A ND alternator with a track record? > > I've been pondering the twin-stators on the > VW variant. It just may be that the two windings > ARE driven by the same set of magnets, are > the same number of turns and enjoy the same > magnetic efficiency for gathering forces from > the moving magnets for conversion to electron > flow. > > If that IS the case, I would think that the > Revmaster installation would recommend parallel > connection of the two windings along with a > suggested rectifier-regulator good for 40A. > > Herein lies the uncertainties. THAT much output > from a single phase R-R is hard, every machine of > that power output I'm aware of is a > three phase output with the best R-R designs > going to synchronous field effect rectification > to reduce losses. A legacy R-R design is a rather > inefficient device that begs good thermal management > of dissipated energy. The larger the output, > the more energy dissipated . . . and NOT available > to run your electro-whizzies. > > We know that the track record for Ducatti R-R > supplied with Rotax 912/914 engines has a spotty > track-record . . . and that's only an 18A rated > alternator. > > There are many, much more robust products > for upgrading the 18A Rotax system. Those > same regulators might be considered for the > dual-coil Revmaster system. > > I don't have any way to drive two PM alternators > simultaneously to explore the effectiveness of > PARALLELING two alternator-rectifier-regulators > to the same bus. I'm not saying it WILL NOT work > very nicely . . . I'm just saying I have no practical > way to say, "been there, done than, works good, > lasts a long time". > > So you are the pioneering integrator here. When > you run the engine the first time, it would be > useful/interesting to instrument your new, > twin alternator configuration, apply various loads > to the system and see how well they share duties > for grunting a 40A load. > > If they parallel to within 10-20% of each other, > odds are that your chosen configuration will > meet your design goals for a 40A, PM system. > > The ball is in your court . . . > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John B <jbsoar(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 19, 2016
Subject: Re: Engine mount ground?
The engine mount probably doesn't require a dedicated ground strap as it is bolted to the firewall and aircraft primary structure. On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 11:17 AM, rvdave wrote: > > I'm running a braided ground from firewall/forest of tabs to engine, is it > necessary to ground the engine mount? > > -------- > Dave Ford > RV6 for sale > RV10 building > Cadillac, MI > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452108#452108 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 19, 2016
Subject: Re: Engine mount ground?
From: Nati Niv <n992dn(at)gmail.com>
It is not necessary to ground the engine mount since it is bolted to the FW, it is however necessary to ground the engine itself, in many cases the engine is mounted to the engine mount using rubber mount, these are not great conductors..... Nati On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 6:11 PM, John B wrote: > The engine mount probably doesn't require a dedicated ground strap as it > is bolted to the firewall and aircraft primary structure. > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 11:17 AM, rvdave wrote: > >> >> I'm running a braided ground from firewall/forest of tabs to engine, is >> it necessary to ground the engine mount? >> >> -------- >> Dave Ford >> RV6 for sale >> RV10 building >> Cadillac, MI >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452108#452108 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> br> fts!) >> r> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"> >> www.buildersbooks.com >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> ========== >> - >> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ========== >> FORUMS - >> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 19, 2016
Paul, I posted two schematics. Which one are you referring to, the first or second? Here is a link to the second one: http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=42255 My comments below will reference the second one. The 3 Pole, Single Throw, (3PST) switch is the master switch. It controls the battery master contactor and also both rectifiers/regulators Ignition terminals. When the master switch is turned on, the battery contactor is energized and both regulators are turned on. In case of smoke in the cockpit, I think that it is a good idea for the master switch to be able to shut off all electrical power from not only the battery but also from the alternators. The separate alternator switch selects which one of the two alternators to use, or both off. I suppose that all switch functions could be combined into one switch at the risk of putting all eggs into one basket. It is questionable if that one switch would reduce pilot workload or make the system any more intuitive. If there is no power going to a regulator Ignition terminal, then that regulator is shut off. Its dynamo is still generating AC voltage whenever the engine is running, but no current flows when the regulator disabled and very little heat is made. Heat goes up with the load on the aircraft electrical system. If the over-voltage breaker trips or if the selector switch is shut off, then the alternator relay is de-energized and the alternator power output is shut off. That situation is no different than if the pilot shuts off each individual electrical load one device at a time. The dynamo-regulator can not tell the difference between all individual switches being shut off or one relay shutting everything off. The MIA881279 rectifier/regulator is the replacement part number for the John Deere AM101406 that some have used to replace the Rotax R/R. Unlike Bob's architecture, my schematic is unproven. So I welcome any comments or suggestions to prevent steering Paul in the wrong direction. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452118#452118 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Engine mount ground?
From: "rvdave" <rv610dave(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 19, 2016
Sort of what I thought but I've been getting some feedback that there should also be a ground cable to the engine mount in case the firewall ground disconnects? The thinking is that if the one cable disconnects the ground for alternator, starter may come through braided oil or fuel lines. Is this valid thinking? -------- Dave Ford RV6 for sale RV10 building Cadillac, MI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452119#452119 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: neal.george(at)gmail.com
Subject: Re: Engine mount ground?
Date: Jan 19, 2016
> On Jan 19, 2016, at 6:34 PM, Nati Niv wrote: > > It is not necessary to ground the engine mount since it is bolted to the FW, it is however necessary to ground the engine itself, in many cases the engine is mounted to the engine mount using rubber mount, these are not great conductors..... > > Nati Engine mounts should never be used as a ground path. Strap the crankcase to the ground post. No excuses. Even though the bolts and bushings that pass thru the rubber components will ohm out and indicate continuity, carrying electrical loads is not part of their job description. Many relatively recent aircraft designs incorporate bonding straps bolted to either side of the vibration isolator and to the crankcase specifically to keep current out of the mounting points. Steel is a relatively poor conductor. Joints make it worse by inserting resistance. High current passed thru a resistive path makes heat, which accelerates the chemical reaction that we describe as corrosion. Add insidious Galvanic corrosion due to dissimilar metals in constant contact. Apart from that, assuming one removes the paint from the mating surfaces, the 4130-steel engine mount bolted to the stainless or galvanized firewall makes a poor ground when new and an awful ground as corrosion forms over time. And it will corrode, despite application of DC 4, Par-al-ketone, ACF-50, (etc., pick your favorite goop)... Neal ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John B <jbsoar(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 19, 2016
Subject: Re: Engine mount ground?
Yes, it is valid thinking. You want a good ground, that is mechanically sound. It goes from the crankcase to the firewall ground. You can include the engine mount if you wish. Does the engine mount have a convenient ground tab? If it does, then run another ground strap to your firewall ground. This won't weigh much, or cost much. (Belt and suspenders, so to speak.) Bob Nuckolls writes about this in the manual. A good read! On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 6:22 PM, rvdave wrote: > > Sort of what I thought but I've been getting some feedback that there > should also be a ground cable to the engine mount in case the firewall > ground disconnects? The thinking is that if the one cable disconnects the > ground for alternator, starter may come through braided oil or fuel lines. > Is this valid thinking? > > -------- > Dave Ford > RV6 for sale > RV10 building > Cadillac, MI > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452119#452119 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Carling S700 2-3 switch failure.
Date: Jan 19, 2016
This manual switch is in a high (8 amps?) fast switching injector circuit. I use it to disable the primary or secondary injectors prior to flight to determine if the engine will run on only one set of injectors. It failed in flight and the engine went very lean running on only one set of injectors. The switch initially had no continuity but made a high resistance contact after flipping it back and forth a few times. Should I replace this switch with a more robust one and if so, where would I find a suitable switch? Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 19, 2016
From: ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
Hi Bob; I would parallel them if there is no hazard.=C2- Otherwise I will run the m separately.=C2- This is a daytime, VFR aircraft, that I hope to take so me long cross countries in.=C2- It would have two alternators and one bat tery.=C2- The idea would be not to have to truncate a trip due to one fai lure. Cheers!=C2-=C2- Stu. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2016 5:25:04 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators At 10:04 PM 1/18/2016, you wrote: Hi Joe; Being internally regulated, each alternator has it's own regulator.=C2- I think I will probably wire so that only one is in use at a time. Cheers! =C2-=C2- Oops! So the design goals do not include =C2-=C2- simultaneous exploitation of both alternators? =C2-=C2- How do you plan to use this airplane and =C2-=C2- how would the twin alternator installation =C2-=C2- fit into your failure analysis? =C2- Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Carling S700 2-3 switch failure.
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 19, 2016
Yes, the switch should be replaced. Choose a switch rated at 10 or more amps. There are some switches that have the terminals riveted to the plastic housing. Do NOT use that kind. They depend of the rivets to conduct the current. Bad idea because rivets in plastic loosen over time. Switches need to be exercised periodically to wear away corrosion. Switches in airplanes do not get much exercise and will fail from corrosion before mechanically wearing out. The S700 2-3 is B & C's part number for a generic DPDT ON-ON switch. If the load is inductive, a diode connected between the load side of the switch and ground will protect the switch against arcing. The diode arrow should point towards positive. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452125#452125 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Engine mount ground?
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 19, 2016
Yes, it is valid thinking. But it is not necessary or even desired to ground the engine mount. It will not hurt anything if the engine mount is grounded. But if a backup ground path is wanted, then run a second ground strap from the engine block to the firewall. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452126#452126 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Engine mount ground?
From: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net>
Date: Jan 20, 2016
taking a different path is valid thinking (ask me how I know!!) But then I rather would prefer to have a 2nd strap as backup as otherwise you would need a bridge strap at the rubbermounts. Cheers Werner On 20.01.2016 02:22, rvdave wrote: > > Sort of what I thought but I've been getting some feedback that there should also be a ground cable to the engine mount in case the firewall ground disconnects? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Engine mount ground?
At 04:03 AM 1/20/2016, you wrote: > >taking a different path is valid thinking (ask me how I know!!) >But then I rather would prefer to have a 2nd strap as backup as >otherwise you would need a bridge strap at the rubbermounts. As Neal pointed out earlier . . . and I have asserted many times over the years, engine mounts are for holding engines onto airplanes. They should not be pressed into service as any part of the electrical system . . . voltages impressed across structural joints due to large circulating currents exacerbates corrosion. Not that this is a demonstrated hazard but diligent failure mode effects analysis dictates that using the engine mount as part of the electrical system is simply not necessary and elevates an otherwise zero-risk to some non-zero number. Another point of interest is the risk for 'burning ship's wiring' with starter currents should a firewall-to-crankcase bond strap become unhooked. Throughout the 'Connection and here on the List, builders have been cautioned about having ANY pathway grounded in two places on the airplane . . . with p-lead shields being the most common violation of that philosophy. Multiple grounds for engine instrumentation run a close second. These are 'ground loops by design', easy (and sometimes important) to avoid. Lastly, the firewall-to-crankcase bond strap should be as "reliable as prop bolts". The only incident for loss of crankcase grounding I witnessed was a mechanic's slip- up on one of our airplanes at K1K1 . . . and yeah, it burned the p-lead shields wired per Cessna factory drawings. I recommend an flat braid strap from some structural bold on engine to the firewall ground stud. Alternatively, a 2AWG piece of WELDING CABLE with lugs installed per http://tinyurl.com/gm8lqxo . . . and attached with robust hardware will give your prop bolts a serious challenge in the longevity/ reliability race. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Carling S700 2-3 switch failure.
At 07:38 PM 1/19/2016, you wrote: >This manual switch is in a high (8 amps?) fast switching injector >circuit. I use it to disable the primary or secondary injectors >prior to flight to determine if the engine will run on only one set >of injectors. It failed in flight and the engine went very lean >running on only one set of injectors. >The switch initially had no continuity but made a high resistance >contact after flipping it back and forth a few times. First, I would REALLY like to have that switch for failure analysis. How much time did you have on the switch? How is this switch wired? does the switch carry injector currents in BOTH positions? > >Should I replace this switch with a more robust one and if so, where >would I find a suitable switch? There are many more robust switches suited to the task not the least of which is this device http://tinyurl.com/jhkg6ep . . . but it's not clear to me that the S700-2-3 was not suited to the task either. It would be useful for us to study the circumstance of the failure and the in-flight situatin you encounted when it did. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: On-the-ground power jack
Date: Jan 20, 2016
Hello group Figure Z-31A of the Connection, which refers to the wiring of a "Military style Ground Power jack", indicates a 22AWG wire connecting the 2nd coil post of the contactor (where the BLK wire of the OVM-14 is also connected), with the "Main Ground Buss", through a 2A circuit breaker. Now forgive my dumb question: what is this wire for? And 2 practical questions: - can I strike this wire from my system? - if not, and since the Ground Buss is in the firewall and the Ground power receptacle and contactor are both in the tail of the RV-10, can I simply connect this wire to the negative terminal of the battery? Regards Carlos Enviado do meu iPhone ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: On-the-ground power jack
At 01:01 PM 1/20/2016, you wrote: > >Hello group > >Figure Z-31A of the Connection, which refers to the wiring of a >"Military style Ground Power jack", indicates a 22AWG wire >connecting the 2nd coil post of the contactor (where the BLK wire of >the OVM-14 is also connected), with the "Main Ground Buss", through >a 2A circuit breaker. Emacs! The small, third terminal on the "mil-spec" ground power jack serves a several purposes. First, the pin is small . . . no high current . . . just a sample of the voltage available from the ground power source. Second, the pin is SHORTER which means that nothing happens on this pin until the larger two pins are in good electrical contact wthe sockets in the ground power plug. Using this pin as a source of voltage to energize the ground power contactor prevents the larger pins from trying to CARRY current during the make/break operations. The diode in series with that sense lead prevents the contactor from closing should you be inadvertently connected to a battery cart that has been miss-wired and reverse polarity. the crowbar ov module across the coil will trigger if your ground power jocky has inadvertently place the GPU in the 28V mode . . . it's happened to me twice. The crowbar ov module is designed to work against a circuit breaker. In this case, I suggest a switch-breaker not unlike . . . Emacs! I'm generally not a big fan of breaker-switches. But in this case, the device can serve two purposes . . . (1) as breaker to work in concert with the crowbar ovm and (2) a switch you can have on the panel that gives YOU control over the application/removal of ground power to your airplane. >And 2 practical questions: > - can I strike this wire from my system? Not recommended . . . > - if not, and since the Ground Buss is in the firewall and the > Ground power receptacle and contactor are both in the tail of the > RV-10, can I simply connect this wire to the negative terminal of the battery? That breaker switch should be on your panel . . . or perhaps on a bracket under it . . . hence the the LONG wire is from ground power contactor and the switch-breaker. The wire between ground bus and the switch- breaker is short. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: Re: On-the-ground power jack
Date: Jan 20, 2016
Thanks Bob For the quick response, and the excellent "instructions manual" that came al ong with the response. A last question, derived from your explanations: - When the ground-power jockey connects the female military jack of the ba ttery cart to the airplane, the electrons will not flow unless that breaker- switch you recommended is On, right? Carlos Enviado do meu iPhone No dia 20/01/2016, =C3-s 19:34, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aero electric.com> escreveu: > At 01:01 PM 1/20/2016, you wrote: .pt> >> >> Hello group >> >> Figure Z-31A of the Connection, which refers to the wiring of a "Military style Ground Power jack", indicates a 22AWG wire connecting the 2nd coil po st of the contactor (where the BLK wire of the OVM-14 is also connected), wi th the "Main Ground Buss", through a 2A circuit breaker. > > <2547f72d.jpg> > The small, third terminal on the "mil-spec" > ground power jack serves a several purposes. > > First, the pin is small . . . no high current . . . > just a sample of the voltage available from > the ground power source. Second, the pin is > SHORTER which means that nothing happens on this > pin until the larger two pins are in good > electrical contact wthe sockets in the ground > power plug. Using this pin as a source of > voltage to energize the ground power contactor > prevents the larger pins from trying to CARRY > current during the make/break operations. > > The diode in series with that sense lead > prevents the contactor from closing should > you be inadvertently connected to a battery > cart that has been miss-wired and reverse > polarity. the crowbar ov module across the > coil will trigger if your ground power jocky > has inadvertently place the GPU in the 28V > mode . . . it's happened to me twice. > > The crowbar ov module is designed to work > against a circuit breaker. In this case, I > suggest a switch-breaker not unlike . . . > > <2547f78b.jpg> > > I'm generally not a big fan of breaker-switches. > But in this case, the device can serve two > purposes . . . (1) as breaker to work in concert > with the crowbar ovm and (2) a switch > you can have on the panel that gives YOU > control over the application/removal of > ground power to your airplane. > > >> And 2 practical questions: >> - can I strike this wire from my system? > > Not recommended . . . > >> - if not, and since the Ground Buss is in the firewall and the Ground p ower receptacle and contactor are both in the tail of the RV-10, can I simpl y connect this wire to the negative terminal of the battery? > > That breaker switch should be on your > panel . . . or perhaps on a bracket under > it . . . hence the the LONG wire is from > ground power contactor and the switch-breaker. > The wire between ground bus and the switch- > breaker is short. > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: On-the-ground power jack
At 02:30 PM 1/20/2016, you wrote: >Thanks Bob > >For the quick response, and the excellent "instructions manual" that >came along with the response. > >A last question, derived from your explanations: > - When the ground-power jockey connects the female military jack > of the battery cart to the airplane, the electrons will not flow > unless that breaker-switch you recommended is On, right? Absolutely. If you have the option, the ground power switch can be included in the DC POWER group of system switches on your panel. When ground power is plugged in, you can have control of it from the pilot's position. Doesn't need to be ON until you're ready, you can turn it OFF as you decide. Some of my readers have added a lamp from the high side of contactor coil to ground. This light will indicate when and if ground power is available. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 20, 2016
I revised my schematic and attached it. The relays now switch the AC. All electrical power can be shut off on the engine side of the firewall. The DC output from each regulator is fused separately so that a fault in one will not disable the other one. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452147#452147 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/revmaster5a_214.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 20, 2016
Subject: Rotax 914 Generator, Alternator, Starting and Fuel
Pump Control I developed the attached wiring based on input from a Rotax dealer in British Columbia. It assumes that the optional external alternator (40 amp) is installed in addition to the integrated generator (20 amp). The integrated generator is used only to power the main fuel pump. The 914 requires an operational fuel pump to run. The ignition is independent. I would appreciate input on the attached diagram. Thanks. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 20, 2016
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 3:10 PM, user9253 wrote: > > I revised my schematic and attached it. > The relays now switch the AC. All electrical power can be shut off on the > engine side of the firewall. > The DC output from each regulator is fused separately so that a fault in > one will not disable the other one. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > I wish I had the time/aptitude to knock out nice drawings like that. I'm still scribbling in notebooks. Some thoughts. The path from buss through the alt breaker, SPDT switch contains multiple single points of failure that can take out both alternators. The alternators, as drawn in the original 'cartoon' installation drawing seems to show one leg of each alternator connected to ground. If that's the case, interrupting the 'wrong' leg might not shut that alt down, if there's an internal short to ground. Behavior of the IGN terminal is not known, and even if it does control the alt, there's no guarantee that a failure mode won't keep the alt active. Assuming that the IGN terminal can control the alt, the ganged master is a single point of failure for the alts (though if it goes, the alts may not matter. :-) ). With B leads tied to the buss, a failure to ground in either charging system might try to draw power from the buss (battery & other alt). Some of the above may not be important if it's a purely VFR plane with no electrical dependence, & nav can be handled with eyeballs &/or portable nav/gps units. But it shouldn't be too difficult to make the system truly redundant. (Independent OV modules, separate switches, contactors interrupting the B leads, etc) What do you think? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 20, 2016
> I wish I had the time/aptitude to knock out nice drawings like that. It helps to be retired. You are right about the multiple single points of failure in the relay coil circuit. To eliminate the danger, the circuit would have to be duplicated; 2 breakers, 2 capacitors, and two switches. The builder would have to weigh the danger of a single part failing against the disadvantage of adding more parts. I did not see any documents that indicated the AC winding was grounded. That would be easy to check with an ohmmeter. I assume [I know that is dangerous :-) ] that the MIA881279 regulator terminals have functions the same functions as the Rotax regulator. See this thread: http://www.matronics.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=305164&sid=53455a09f9026927ea6c15eb6d6e198f > there's no guarantee that a failure mode won't keep the alt active. A regulator can not have an output if there is no AC input. The relays only allow one AC dynamo to be connected at a time. > the ganged master is a single point of failure for the alts Yes, but many airplanes have a master switch that is a single point of failure. > With B leads tied to the buss, a failure to ground in either charging system might try to draw power from the buss (battery & other alt). True, but it would have to be a resistive fault. A direct short to ground would blow the 25 amp fuse with battery current. Yes, the circuit could be made more failure tolerant. But is added complexity warranted for the aircraft mission? This is a hobby for me. I do not want to make it into a full time job. :-) You bring up some interesting points. If it were my plane intended for hard IFR, then I would spend more time honing the schematic. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452153#452153 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 2016
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: Paul Eckenroth <N509RV(at)eckenroth.com>
I like the revised schematic in that it is breaking the AC feed from the dynamo and therefore eliminating any concern about what the regulator will do with the AC current when it is not engaged. However, a failure in the charging circuit that causes the crowbar to trip the AC current will probably be in the regulator. You will still have battery voltage back feeding the regulator through the B tab. Can that create any problems. Is there a reason that the capacitor is in the position shown. I would have thought it should be attached to the B output since it's purpose is to smooth out the voltage output. The Onex is a small aerobatic plane that will be flown VFR daytime only. However it will be equipped so it can be flown at night and escape from any inadvertent VFR into IIFR situations. As such and with the backup generator and independent ignitiion I don't feel that a E bus is needed. I welcome all input. Paul On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 4:10 PM, user9253 wrote: > > I revised my schematic and attached it. > The relays now switch the AC. All electrical power can be shut off on the > engine side of the firewall. > The DC output from each regulator is fused separately so that a fault in > one will not disable the other one. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452147#452147 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/revmaster5a_214.pdf > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: landing and nav/strobe LED lights
From: "messydeer" <messydeer(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 21, 2016
Hey! I have a Sonex flying...er in the hangar now I hope...and want to put LED lights in it. I've seen some nav/pos/strobe lights from Aveo https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/aveopowerburst.php which are $500 a pair. I think it could be more than I want to tackle to fab something like that and may just buy them off the shelf. Landing lights seem easier to fab. I'll be looking for a single very bright LED light array. maybe as simple as getting one from Mauser. Any idea how bright 'bright' is? I see that Duckworks lists their 2nd tier LED light at 320,000 candlepower. I've also seen PAR36 listed, which I believe is the pattern lights shoot. Duckworks also mentions 'no RF interference', which makes me wonder if there'd normally be a problem without some fix. Suggestions? -------- Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452173#452173 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 21, 2016
> will still have battery voltage back feeding the > regulator through the B tab When I turn on the master switch on my RV-12 and before starting the Rotax, battery voltage is being back fed to the regulator B terminal. Of course the regulator is in working condition. Who knows what regulator failure modes there are besides low voltage. I do not think that it matters much where the capacitor is connected to the positive supply as long as it is connected whenever the alternator is working. I think it is a good idea to use a fuse or circuit breaker to protect the electrical system against the capacitor shorting. The E-Bus is the main feature of Bob's designs that improves upon legacy aircraft electrical systems. It provides an alternate current path if the main path fails. I recommend it. I have attached another schematic that incorporates some ideas suggested by others. I am not necessarily recommending it. The design has an additional circuit breaker and an additional capacitor. It is more complicated to wire, but from a pilot's perspective, there is still one alternator switch and one master switch. If there is a concern about the master switch failing, then install 2 of them next to each other wired in parallel. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452175#452175 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/revmaster6a_153.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2016
From: BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net
Subject: Engine Ground
I happened to be helping repair a Cessna 170-B and noticed the engine ground was routed only about 4" aft of the rubber mounts and attached to a tab on the motor mount in lieu of the firewall. This saved a few feet of heavy wire and a few ounces. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Engine Ground
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 21, 2016
On 1/21/2016 8:09 PM, BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net wrote: > I happened to be helping repair a Cessna 170-B and noticed the engine > ground was routed only about 4" aft of the rubber mounts and attached > to a tab on the motor mount in lieu of the firewall. This saved a few > feet of heavy wire and a few ounces. > > And added several tenths of an ohm to the resistance of the starting circuit. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rotax 914 Generator, Alternator, Starting and Fuel
Pump Cont
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 21, 2016
In case of over voltage the 5 amp fuse will blow before the 5 amp breaker. Eliminate the fuse. The note on the drawing says that the main bus can be separated from the battery. If that means to shut off the master, I do not know why anyone would want to do that. I suggest adding a relay and lamp to indicate that the 20 amp dynamo is not working. Red lamp should go out when rectifier/regulator is working. See attached pdf. When the momentary push button switch is first pressed, the 5 amp fuse will carry current to fuel pump #1 before the rectifier/regulator puts out full voltage. That fuse could blow if not rated to handle the fuel pump current. Resize the rectifier/regulator fuse from 20 amps to whatever the pump requires. 10 amps? -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452186#452186 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/rotax_914_pump_138.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rotax 914 Generator, Alternator, Starting and Fuel
Pump Cont
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 21, 2016
Actually the relay is not even needed. The lamp will illuminate per the attached pdf if the voltage is not equal at the two points where the lamp connects. The fuel pump will pass lamp current to ground. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452187#452187 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/rotax_914_pump_337.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: landing and nav/strobe LED lights
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 21, 2016
This website explains the difference between candlepower and lumens: http://www.flashlightuniversity.com/lumens-vs-candlepower/ I could be wrong but believe that candlepower is misleading marketing hype. Lumens is what should be compared. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452188#452188 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 21, 2016
Subject: Re: Rotax 914 Generator, Alternator, Starting
and Fuel Pump Cont Thanks Joe for your comments. Here are my comments on your comments: 1. In case of over voltage the 5 amp fuse will blow before the 5 amp breaker. Eliminate the fuse. Okay, I didn't think of this. My "Bus" is a fuseblock so there is automatically a fuse associated with each circuit. Maybe I could put a 10 amp fuse in there, and then keep the 5 amp breaker for overvoltage protection? The alternative would be to break this circuit out of the fuseblock. Seems easier to just use a larger fuse. 2. The note on the drawing says that the main bus can be separated from the battery. If that means to shut off the master, I do not know why anyone would want to do that. Simple answer--smoke in the cockpit. In that case the #1 priority is to try to stop the fire. First step, shut down all the electric not necessary to keep the engine running. Hit the master, which opens the battery relay, which shuts down all the circuits except the main fuel pump. 3. I suggest adding a relay and lamp to indicate that the 20 amp dynamo is not working. I have Dynon Skyview with the ability to monitor two voltage sources. I would think this would be sufficient to monitor the health of the 20 amp integrated generator. 4. When the momentary push button switch is first pressed, the 5 amp fuse will carry current to fuel pump #1 before the rectifier/regulator puts out full voltage. I didn't think of this either. I should make that a 10 amp fuse. Five amps would "probably" work but it is too close to the edge for a critical component. 5. Resize the rectifier/regulator fuse from 20 amps to whatever the pump requires. 10 amps? On that circuit I am showing a 5 amp fuse at the bus and a 20 amp circuit breaker on the panel. We have already agreed (in #4 above) that the fuse


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