AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-nf

May 22, 2016 - June 17, 2016



      >
      Hi Bill,
      
      That text is a bit surprising to me; it's in conflict with stuff I've 
      read about 1/4 wave antennas and ground planes. There are surely HAM 
      operators on this list that can give you the formula for ground plane 
      size, but IIRC, it's approximately the same radius as the length of the 
      radiating element (antenna). If the ground plane 'legs' droop, it 
      changes their length slightly. The stuff I've read seems to say that 
      once you go beyond the "radius=element" size, there's not a lot of 
      benefit. Check out these images.
      
      https://www.google.com/search?q=1/4+wave+ground+plane&espv=2&biw=1920&bih=993&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjDwL2u8O7MAhVW4mMKHQL4DlYQ_AUIBygC#imgrc=_
      
      The only thing that makes sense to me is the 130x130 dimension, which 
      would yield roughly the average radius to match a 1/4 wave aircraft comm 
      antenna.
      
      The antenna should be at the center of whatever you use for a ground 
      plane. To use some very non-physics terms, the ground plane 'mirrors' 
      the 1/4 wave antenna, making it think it's a 1/2 wave antenna. If the 
      antenna is way off-center, it will mess with the radiation pattern. 
      Meaning it will transmit stronger (farther) in one direction and weaker 
      in another.
      
      Kitplanes Magazine has had several good articles recently about doing 
      just what you are trying to do. If you're not a subscriber, I'd suggest 
      you check it out. The current editor is a former NASA mission control 
      guy who's a homebuilding repeat offender, and the contributors are 
      getting more impressive almost every issue.
      
      Charlie
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location Questions
For
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 22, 2016
Assuming that you are installing the SV-XPNDR-261, why not use the existing transponder antenna? Since the original transponder worked OK with that egg shaped ground plane, that reinforces my post that shape and size makes a theoretical difference, but is not critical in real life. The SV-ADSB-470 antenna is receive only. It will not affect the operation of ADAHRS or Magnetometer. Keep the ADSB-470 antenna away from other transmitting antennas, especially the transponder antenna. The SV-ADSB-470 receives 978 only, not 1090. If you are out of range of an ADS-B ground station (maybe in a traffic pattern), you will not see traffic transmitting ADS-B out on 1090, i.e., other SkyView transponders. Dynon needs to offer a dual band ADS-B receiver. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456477#456477 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 22, 2016
Subject: Re: Ground Plane Question
From: William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com>
Cant you use a bob archer antenna. As i understand it these do not require a ground plane Will On 22 May 2016 21:13, "Charlie England" wrote: > On 5/22/2016 2:52 PM, William Hunter wrote: > > I have a question about the =9CGround Plane=9D design and the antenna mounting > within that ground plane in a composite aircraft: > > > The SkyView manuals states =9CWhen a conventional aircraft monopole antenna > is used it relies on a ground plane for correct behavior. For ideal > performance the ground plane should be very large compared to the > wavelength of reception, which is 305 mm. In a metal skinned aircraft thi s > is usually easy to accomplish, but is more difficult in a composite or > fabric skinned aircraft. In these cases a metallic ground plane should be > fabricated and fitted under the antenna. > > > As the ground plane is made smaller, the actual dimensions of the ground > plane become more > > critical, and small multiples of the wavelength should be avoided, as > should circles. Rectangles > > or squares are much less likely to create a critical dimension that > resonates with the > > transmissions. The smallest practical ground plane is a square around 130 > mm per side; as the > > size increases the performance may actually get worse, but will be better > by the time the > > ground plane is 780 mm on each side. Anything much larger than that size > is unlikely to show > > significant further improvement. > > > So I get that the metal foil/piece needs to be a square that is larger > than 130 MM X 130 MM however where should the antenna be mounted in that > square? At the edge, outside corner, or in the exact center? I would > think that the center would not be better than the edge or corner because > the wavelength > > .. > > > Cheers!!! > > > Bill Hunter > > > Hi Bill, > > That text is a bit surprising to me; it's in conflict with stuff I've rea d > about 1/4 wave antennas and ground planes. There are surely HAM operators > on this list that can give you the formula for ground plane size, but IIR C, > it's approximately the same radius as the length of the radiating element > (antenna). If the ground plane 'legs' droop, it changes their length > slightly. The stuff I've read seems to say that once you go beyond the > "radius=element" size, there's not a lot of benefit. Check out these im ages. > > > https://www.google.com/search?q=1/4+wave+ground+plane&espv=2&biw=19 20&bih=993&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjDwL2u8O7MAhVW4mM KHQL4DlYQ_AUIBygC#imgrc=_ > > The only thing that makes sense to me is the 130x130 dimension, which > would yield roughly the average radius to match a 1/4 wave aircraft comm > antenna. > > The antenna should be at the center of whatever you use for a ground > plane. To use some very non-physics terms, the ground plane 'mirrors' the > 1/4 wave antenna, making it think it's a 1/2 wave antenna. If the antenna > is way off-center, it will mess with the radiation pattern. Meaning it wi ll > transmit stronger (farther) in one direction and weaker in another. > > Kitplanes Magazine has had several good articles recently about doing jus t > what you are trying to do. If you're not a subscriber, I'd suggest you > check it out. The current editor is a former NASA mission control guy who 's > a homebuilding repeat offender, and the contributors are getting more > impressive almost every issue. > > Charlie > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ground Plane Question
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: May 22, 2016
William, I too was going to suggest the Bob Archer transponder antenna. It is a full dipole requiring no ground plane and can be mounted inside your composite (assuming it is fiberglas and not carbon fiber) fuselage at a location of your choice. The only requirement is that it be mounted in a vertical plane. I use it for my transponder antenna and it sure seems to work well. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/archer_antenna5.php <http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/archer_antenna5.php> Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs). Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On May 22, 2016, at 8:28 PM, William Daniell wrote: Cant you use a bob archer antenna. As i understand it these do not require a ground plane Will ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ground Plane Question
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 22, 2016
I agree with Charlie. And the ADS-B receiver antenna can be mounted in any convenient place away from the transponder antenna. How about inside of that center tunnel? It can even be pointed up. Garmin's GDL 39 is designed to sit on the dash pointed up. This one does not even have a ground plane. http://tinyurl.com/120-ADS-B -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456481#456481 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Transponder ADSB Transponder Antenna
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: May 22, 2016
The Dynon ADS-B transponder is 1090-ES. The receiver is 978. On 5/22/2016 1:21 PM, Peter Pengilly wrote: > Which frequency band will you be using? > > > On 22/05/2016 20:08, William Hunter wrote: >> >> Is it ok to install the ADS-B and transponder antenna in the same >> location? >> >> >> >> I have a composite aircraft and there is a ground plane installed on >> the floorboard of the real plane and it already has the transponder >> antenna located thereI would like to install the ADS-B antenna there. >> >> >> >> .. >> >> >> >> Cheers!!! >> >> >> >> Bill Hunter >> >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 22, 2016
Subject: Re: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location
Questions For
From: William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Joe, This is really valuable information. Sounds like you know your stuff so if I could kindly pick a bit more of your brain I am running the SV-XPNDR-260 and it is supposed to be the higher-powered transponder that dynon offers I'm running the dynon ADDB receiver for traffic. The ideal location for convenience of installation would be to install the monopole antenna directly underneath the Canard. If I installed it like I am thinking then the monopole antenna would be sticking down from the Cunard and since the Canard is mounted up high in the nose cone of the airplane the antenna would not be sticking out below the bottom of the airplane assuming there's no carbon graphite in that section of the airplane and assuming there's no paint that has some kind of chromate based material then my question is would the antenna be able to still receive the ground-based signals? To add to my confusion I will also be running a Garmin gtn - 650 and it is supposed to be able to receive ADS-B signals. . Should I purchase an additional monopole antenna for that unit as well or should I just run with the dynon unit? Subject is way out of my league so any help from you or some of the other sharp guys on this forum would be greatly helpful! THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR HELP!!! Bill Hunter On May 22, 2016 6:30 PM, "user9253" wrote: Assuming that you are installing the SV-XPNDR-261, why not use the existing transponder antenna? Since the original transponder worked OK with that egg shaped ground plane, that reinforces my post that shape and size makes a theoretical difference, but is not critical in real life. The SV-ADSB-470 antenna is receive only. It will not affect the operation of ADAHRS or Magnetometer. Keep the ADSB-470 antenna away from other transmitting antennas, especially the transponder antenna. The SV-ADSB-470 receives 978 only, not 1090. If you are out of range of an ADS-B ground station (maybe in a traffic pattern), you will not see traffic transmitting ADS-B out on 1090, i.e., other SkyView transponders. Dynon needs to offer a dual band ADS-B receiver. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456477#456477 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 22, 2016
Subject: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch
From: William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
The other big wiring project I have is to connect the starter wire to the momentary contact switch is at the base of the infinity grip. Someone said that I should use a diode and somebody else said that I should incorporate a relay into the system however the manufacturer said that the switch he uses is sufficient for a starter circuit. Has anybody run sort of arrangement? I have a Lycoming IO - 540 engine with a skytec starter motor. THANKS AGAIN!!! Bill Hunter ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 22, 2016
Subject: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch
From: David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com>
I work next door to a radio shop and since I have an experiental I hear all the experimental gripes. Recently they were doing radio work on an RV. The builder put a starter switch on the stick. It was unmarked and they inadvertently pushed it, with nearly disastrous results. Sorry I don't mean to change subjects but please make sure it's well marked and obvious--ya never know who's gonna push what buttons. Good news is I think they're more careful now ;-) -Dave On Sunday, May 22, 2016, William Hunter wrote: > The other big wiring project I have is to connect the starter wire to the > momentary contact switch is at the base of the infinity grip. > > Someone said that I should use a diode and somebody else said that I > should incorporate a relay into the system however the manufacturer said > that the switch he uses is sufficient for a starter circuit. > > Has anybody run sort of arrangement? > > I have a Lycoming IO - 540 engine with a skytec starter motor. > > THANKS AGAIN!!! > > Bill Hunter > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ground Plane Question
From: Bill Maxwell <wrmaxwell(at)bigpond.com>
Date: May 23, 2016
As a 40-year ham, I endorse Charlie's comments. I can add that placing the vertical radiator off centre will distort the antenna's radiation pattern, favouring the ground plane's longest dimension. Not exactly what you want for best all-round performance, so best place it in the centre. Drooping the ground plane's legs below horizontal will slightly increas the antenna's feed point impedance. I find a 30 degree "droop" gives close to the desired 50 ohms. I also concur with Charlie's comments about the increasing quality of "kitplanes" magazine. Bill On 23/05/2016 11:03 AM, Charlie England wrote: > On 5/22/2016 2:52 PM, William Hunter wrote: >> >> I have a question about the Ground Plane design and the antenna >> mounting within that ground plane in a composite aircraft: >> >> The SkyView manuals states When a conventional aircraft monopole >> antenna is used it relies on a ground plane for correct behavior. For >> ideal performance the ground plane should be very large compared to >> the wavelength of reception, which is 305 mm. In a metal skinned >> aircraft this is usually easy to accomplish, but is more difficult in >> a composite or fabric skinned aircraft. In these cases a metallic >> ground plane should be fabricated and fitted under the antenna. >> >> As the ground plane is made smaller, the actual dimensions of the >> ground plane become more >> >> critical, and small multiples of the wavelength should be avoided, as >> should circles. Rectangles >> >> or squares are much less likely to create a critical dimension that >> resonates with the >> >> transmissions. The smallest practical ground plane is a square around >> 130 mm per side; as the >> >> size increases the performance may actually get worse, but will be >> better by the time the >> >> ground plane is 780 mm on each side. Anything much larger than that >> size is unlikely to show >> >> significant further improvement. >> >> So I get that the metal foil/piece needs to be a square that is >> larger than 130 MM X 130 MM however where should the antenna be >> mounted in that square? At the edge, outside corner, or in the exact >> center? I would think that the center would not be better than the >> edge or corner because the wavelength >> >> .. >> >> Cheers!!! >> >> Bill Hunter >> > Hi Bill, > > That text is a bit surprising to me; it's in conflict with stuff I've > read about 1/4 wave antennas and ground planes. There are surely HAM > operators on this list that can give you the formula for ground plane > size, but IIRC, it's approximately the same radius as the length of > the radiating element (antenna). If the ground plane 'legs' droop, it > changes their length slightly. The stuff I've read seems to say that > once you go beyond the "radius=element" size, there's not a lot of > benefit. Check out these images. > > https://www.google.com/search?q=1/4+wave+ground+plane&espv=2&biw=1920&bih=993&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjDwL2u8O7MAhVW4mMKHQL4DlYQ_AUIBygC#imgrc=_ > > The only thing that makes sense to me is the 130x130 dimension, which > would yield roughly the average radius to match a 1/4 wave aircraft > comm antenna. > > The antenna should be at the center of whatever you use for a ground > plane. To use some very non-physics terms, the ground plane 'mirrors' > the 1/4 wave antenna, making it think it's a 1/2 wave antenna. If the > antenna is way off-center, it will mess with the radiation pattern. > Meaning it will transmit stronger (farther) in one direction and > weaker in another. > > Kitplanes Magazine has had several good articles recently about doing > just what you are trying to do. If you're not a subscriber, I'd > suggest you check it out. The current editor is a former NASA mission > control guy who's a homebuilding repeat offender, and the contributors > are getting more impressive almost every issue. > > Charlie > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location
Questions For
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: May 23, 2016
I think you are confusing yourself with too much information. What you have is the Dynon(Trig) SV-261 transponder, which is the Out unit on 1090-ES. This should be connected to your existing monopole transponder antenna. Then you have the SV-470 ADS-B Receiver or In unit. It needs the same variety antenna, but not a ground plane, and can be anywhere that is at least 2 ft away from your existing transponder antenna. Do not get confused about the GTN-650. It is a GPS/Nav/Com unit that does NOT receive any ADS-B or other traffic information on its own. It is only able to display information received by your transponder or ADS-B In unit. I have the same equipment in my RV-10. My transponder antenna is a short distance behind the firewall on the belly. My ADS-B receiver antenna is on the belly in the tailcone. I realize with a canard, your convenient locations are different...just get the distance you need. Under the Canard should be fine, if you can get the distance and easy mounting. On 5/22/2016 9:56 PM, William Hunter wrote: > Joe, > > This is really valuable information. Sounds like you know your stuff so > if I could kindly pick a bit more of your brain > > I am running the SV-XPNDR-260 and it is supposed to be the > higher-powered transponder that dynon offers I'm running the dynon ADDB > receiver for traffic. > > The ideal location for convenience of installation would be to install > the monopole antenna directly underneath the Canard. If I installed it > like I am thinking then the monopole antenna would be sticking down from > the Cunard and since the Canard is mounted up high in the nose cone of > the airplane the antenna would not be sticking out below the bottom of > the airplane assuming there's no carbon graphite in that section of the > airplane and assuming there's no paint that has some kind of chromate > based material then my question is would the antenna be able to still > receive the ground-based signals? > > To add to my confusion I will also be running a Garmin gtn - 650 and it > is supposed to be able to receive ADS-B signals. . Should I purchase an > additional monopole antenna for that unit as well or should I just run > with the dynon unit? > > Subject is way out of my league so any help from you or some of the > other sharp guys on this forum would be greatly helpful! > > THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR HELP!!! > > Bill Hunter > > On May 22, 2016 6:30 PM, "user9253" > wrote: > > > > > Assuming that you are installing the SV-XPNDR-261, why not use the > existing transponder antenna? Since the original transponder worked > OK with that egg shaped ground plane, that reinforces my post that > shape and size makes a theoretical difference, but is not critical > in real life. > The SV-ADSB-470 antenna is receive only. It will not affect the > operation of ADAHRS or Magnetometer. Keep the ADSB-470 antenna away > from other transmitting antennas, especially the transponder antenna. > The SV-ADSB-470 receives 978 only, not 1090. If you are out of > range of an ADS-B ground station (maybe in a traffic pattern), you > will not see traffic transmitting ADS-B out on 1090, i.e., other > SkyView transponders. Dynon needs to offer a dual band ADS-B receiver. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456477#456477 > > > ========== > - > Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ========== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > WIKI - > errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > ========== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 23, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch
At 12:25 AM 5/23/2016, you wrote: >I work next door to a radio shop and since I=C2 >have an experiental=C2 I hear all the experimental >gripes. Recently they were doing radio work=C2 on >an RV. The builder put a=C2 starter switch on the >stick. It was unmarked and they inadvertently >pushed it, with nearly disastrous results. Sorry >I don't mean to change subjects but please make >sure it's well marked and obvious--ya never know >who's gonna push what buttons.=C2 Better yet . . . don't do that. Probably a million airplanes have been produced were the starter controls were NOT on the stick . . . or anywhere else that could be inadvertently operated . . .that issue has never bubbled up as a human-factors 'problem' to be fixed. But more importantly, the FURTHER your airplane departs from historic configurations, the greater the risk for bad results from common assumptions. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Hunter" <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location
Questions For
Date: May 23, 2016
THANKS Kelly!!! > What you have is the Dynon(Trig) SV-261 transponder, which is the Out unit on 1090-ES. This should be connected to your existing monopole transponder antenna. Yes. My existing monopole antenna is attached to the "corner" (edge) of the existing egg shaped ground plane. I really want to get this ground plane issue squared away (sorry could not resist). My question is what is the best size and shape for this transponder monopole antenna? The Dynon manuals says 120 MM X 120 MM is minimum and 700 MM X 700 MM is best but way too big for my airplane. Then it says intervals of wave length distance "should be avoided" however what are the intermediate steps that are best and what should be avoided? >Then you have the SV-470 ADS-B Receiver or In unit. It needs the same variety antenna, but not a ground plane, and can be anywhere that is at least 2 ft away from your existing transponder antenna. Yes. Reading the Dynon manual it says to make sure there is a ground plane Same question as above... What are the intervals that the ADSB ground plane should be? 130 MM X 130 MM is minimum and their best size is 780 MM X 780 MM but that is too big for my airplane...and intermediate steps are bad so what are the intermediate steps that are best and what should be avoided? >Do not get confused about the GTN-650. It is a GPS/Nav/Com unit that does NOT receive any ADS-B or other traffic information on its own. It is only able to display information received by your transponder or ADS-B In unit. Good call Kelly...I did not gather that fine point. THANKS AGAIN!!!! .. Cheers!!! Bill Hunter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 6:24 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location Questions For --> I think you are confusing yourself with too much information. What you have is the Dynon(Trig) SV-261 transponder, which is the Out unit on 1090-ES. This should be connected to your existing monopole transponder antenna. Then you have the SV-470 ADS-B Receiver or In unit. It needs the same variety antenna, but not a ground plane, and can be anywhere that is at least 2 ft away from your existing transponder antenna. Do not get confused about the GTN-650. It is a GPS/Nav/Com unit that does NOT receive any ADS-B or other traffic information on its own. It is only able to display information received by your transponder or ADS-B In unit. I have the same equipment in my RV-10. My transponder antenna is a short distance behind the firewall on the belly. My ADS-B receiver antenna is on the belly in the tailcone. I realize with a canard, your convenient locations are different...just get the distance you need. Under the Canard should be fine, if you can get the distance and easy mounting. On 5/22/2016 9:56 PM, William Hunter wrote: > Joe, > > This is really valuable information. Sounds like you know your stuff > so if I could kindly pick a bit more of your brain > > I am running the SV-XPNDR-260 and it is supposed to be the > higher-powered transponder that dynon offers I'm running the dynon > ADDB receiver for traffic. > > The ideal location for convenience of installation would be to install > the monopole antenna directly underneath the Canard. If I installed > it like I am thinking then the monopole antenna would be sticking down > from the Cunard and since the Canard is mounted up high in the nose > cone of the airplane the antenna would not be sticking out below the > bottom of the airplane assuming there's no carbon graphite in that > section of the airplane and assuming there's no paint that has some > kind of chromate based material then my question is would the antenna > be able to still receive the ground-based signals? > > To add to my confusion I will also be running a Garmin gtn - 650 and > it is supposed to be able to receive ADS-B signals. . Should I > purchase an additional monopole antenna for that unit as well or > should I just run with the dynon unit? > > Subject is way out of my league so any help from you or some of the > other sharp guys on this forum would be greatly helpful! > > THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR HELP!!! > > Bill Hunter > > On May 22, 2016 6:30 PM, "user9253" > wrote: > > > > > Assuming that you are installing the SV-XPNDR-261, why not use the > existing transponder antenna? Since the original transponder worked > OK with that egg shaped ground plane, that reinforces my post that > shape and size makes a theoretical difference, but is not critical > in real life. > The SV-ADSB-470 antenna is receive only. It will not affect the > operation of ADAHRS or Magnetometer. Keep the ADSB-470 antenna away > from other transmitting antennas, especially the transponder antenna. > The SV-ADSB-470 receives 978 only, not 1090. If you are out of > range of an ADS-B ground station (maybe in a traffic pattern), you > will not see traffic transmitting ADS-B out on 1090, i.e., other > SkyView transponders. Dynon needs to offer a dual band ADS-B receiver. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456477#456477 > > > ========== > - > Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ========== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > WIKI - > errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > ========== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 23, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location
Questions For There are two prime issues here . . . antenna performance with respect to ground plane which is easily addressed by reciting the physics behind the idea of ground plane. (1) If your antenna is hanging out in the breeze or perhaps located on top of a mast, there is no practical way to provide the ultimate in ground planes . . . conductive material radiating out from the base all the way to the horizon. Experience and measurement has demonstrated that a artificial plane fabricated of 'radials' can be a useful alternative to the acme of grounds . . . 4 or more RESONANT radials at the base of the antenna. More that 4 can be expanded upon to be an 'infinite' number of radials whereupon you have generated a solid disk with a radius equal to the height of the antenna. Yes, there ARE proximity effects for location of the antenna on unsymmetrical grounds . . . but you have to go into an RF lab with REALLY good equipment to identify/measure the effects. On a composite airplane, mount it on the disk. On a metal airplane, mount it to the skin . . . anywhere pending other issues wrapped up on proximity to a strong radiated signal . . . the transponder. (2) ADSB receivers are listening to 100+ watt digital signals from transmitters in line of sight and 10 miles or less distant. That is a HUGE signal compared to looking for a 25w marker beacon 50 miles away and perhaps over the horizon. A wet string hung under the fuselage would probably do must fine in terms of performance for receiving ADSB squitter. KISS . . . disk of aluminum with a legacy monopole is cheap, easy, works good, lasts a long time. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Hunter" <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch
Date: May 23, 2016
> Better yet . . . don't do that. Probably a million airplanes have been produced were the starter controls were NOT on the stick . . . or anywhere else that could be inadvertently operated . . .that issue has never bubbled up as a human-factors 'problem' to be fixed. Hmmm=85good advice. I did think the idea was a bit odd. Better go back to the old push button=85I might could use that button for another purpose=85what do you think about using it for the ejection seat or drag chute features I am incorporating=85what could possibly go wrong?!?!? THANKS Bob and All for your kind feedback/suggestions!!! .. Cheers!!! Bill Hunter 408-464-1902 From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 7:27 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch At 12:25 AM 5/23/2016, you wrote: I work next door to a radio shop and since I=C2 have an experiental=C2 I hear all the experimental gripes. Recently they were doing radio work=C2 on an RV. The builder put a=C2 starter switch on the stick. It was unmarked and they inadvertently pushed it, with nearly disastrous results. Sorry I don't mean to change subjects but please make sure it's well marked and obvious--ya never know who's gonna push what buttons.=C2 Better yet . . . don't do that. Probably a million airplanes have been produced were the starter controls were NOT on the stick . . . or anywhere else that could be inadvertently operated . . .that issue has never bubbled up as a human-factors 'problem' to be fixed. But more importantly, the FURTHER your airplane departs from historic configurations, the greater the risk for bad results from common assumptions. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location
Questions For
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: May 23, 2016
Go with the minimum disk on the receiving antenna and leave the existing alone, it probably is working and has been tested. If my metric calculator and decimal point placer are working today, that would be about a 5" diam alum foil disk. Given the antenna length, probably double what is actually needed. On 5/23/2016 7:35 AM, William Hunter wrote: > > THANKS Kelly!!! > >> What you have is the Dynon(Trig) SV-261 transponder, which is the Out unit on 1090-ES. This should be connected to your existing monopole transponder antenna. > > Yes. My existing monopole antenna is attached to the "corner" (edge) of the existing egg shaped ground plane. I really want to get this ground plane issue squared away (sorry could not resist). > > My question is what is the best size and shape for this transponder monopole antenna? The Dynon manuals says 120 MM X 120 MM is minimum and 700 MM X 700 MM is best but way too big for my airplane. Then it says intervals of wave length distance "should be avoided" however what are the intermediate steps that are best and what should be avoided? > >> Then you have the SV-470 ADS-B Receiver or In unit. It needs the same variety antenna, but not a ground plane, and can be anywhere that is at least 2 ft away from your existing transponder antenna. > > Yes. Reading the Dynon manual it says to make sure there is a ground plane > > Same question as above... What are the intervals that the ADSB ground plane should be? > 130 MM X 130 MM is minimum and their best size is 780 MM X 780 MM but that is too big for my airplane...and intermediate steps are bad so what are the intermediate steps that are best and what should be avoided? > >> Do not get confused about the GTN-650. It is a GPS/Nav/Com unit that does NOT receive any ADS-B or other traffic information on its own. It is only able to display information received by your transponder or ADS-B In unit. > > Good call Kelly...I did not gather that fine point. > > THANKS AGAIN!!!! > > > .. > > Cheers!!! > > Bill Hunter > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 6:24 AM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location Questions For > > --> > > I think you are confusing yourself with too much information. What you have is the Dynon(Trig) SV-261 transponder, which is the Out unit on 1090-ES. This should be connected to your existing monopole transponder antenna. Then you have the SV-470 ADS-B Receiver or In unit. It needs the same variety antenna, but not a ground plane, and can be anywhere that is at least 2 ft away from your existing transponder antenna. > Do not get confused about the GTN-650. It is a GPS/Nav/Com unit that does NOT receive any ADS-B or other traffic information on its own. It is only able to display information received by your transponder or ADS-B In unit. > I have the same equipment in my RV-10. My transponder antenna is a short distance behind the firewall on the belly. My ADS-B receiver antenna is on the belly in the tailcone. I realize with a canard, your convenient locations are different...just get the distance you need. Under the Canard should be fine, if you can get the distance and easy mounting. > > On 5/22/2016 9:56 PM, William Hunter wrote: >> Joe, >> >> This is really valuable information. Sounds like you know your stuff >> so if I could kindly pick a bit more of your brain >> >> I am running the SV-XPNDR-260 and it is supposed to be the >> higher-powered transponder that dynon offers I'm running the dynon >> ADDB receiver for traffic. >> >> The ideal location for convenience of installation would be to install >> the monopole antenna directly underneath the Canard. If I installed >> it like I am thinking then the monopole antenna would be sticking down >> from the Cunard and since the Canard is mounted up high in the nose >> cone of the airplane the antenna would not be sticking out below the >> bottom of the airplane assuming there's no carbon graphite in that >> section of the airplane and assuming there's no paint that has some >> kind of chromate based material then my question is would the antenna >> be able to still receive the ground-based signals? >> >> To add to my confusion I will also be running a Garmin gtn - 650 and >> it is supposed to be able to receive ADS-B signals. . Should I >> purchase an additional monopole antenna for that unit as well or >> should I just run with the dynon unit? >> >> Subject is way out of my league so any help from you or some of the >> other sharp guys on this forum would be greatly helpful! >> >> THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR HELP!!! >> >> Bill Hunter >> >> On May 22, 2016 6:30 PM, "user9253" > > wrote: >> >> > >> >> Assuming that you are installing the SV-XPNDR-261, why not use the >> existing transponder antenna? Since the original transponder worked >> OK with that egg shaped ground plane, that reinforces my post that >> shape and size makes a theoretical difference, but is not critical >> in real life. >> The SV-ADSB-470 antenna is receive only. It will not affect the >> operation of ADAHRS or Magnetometer. Keep the ADSB-470 antenna away >> from other transmitting antennas, especially the transponder antenna. >> The SV-ADSB-470 receives 978 only, not 1090. If you are out of >> range of an ADS-B ground station (maybe in a traffic pattern), you >> will not see traffic transmitting ADS-B out on 1090, i.e., other >> SkyView transponders. Dynon needs to offer a dual band ADS-B receiver. >> >> -------- >> Joe Gores >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456477#456477 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> - >> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" >> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ========== >> FORUMS - >> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> WIKI - >> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >> ========== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Hunter" <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location
Questions For
Date: May 23, 2016
Wow.this inherent anal retentive desire I have to "do it right the first time" is a real pain in the butt!!! >A wet string hung under the fuselage would probably do must fine in terms of performance for receiving ADSB squitter. KISS . . . disk of aluminum with a legacy monopole is cheap, easy, works good, lasts a long time.> The Dynon manual sure made a big deal about the EXACT size and shape of the antenna in a composite.I was thinking that an aluminum airplane would certainly not be the exact size and shape. Anyhoo.Bob to confirm your communication before I start cutting and gluing. With respect to the ADS-B antenna.I would like to mount it under the canard essentially in the nose compartment wheel well area.do you suppose this would work? What size should the aluminum ground plane be? Disk or square or egg shaped?!?! With respect to the transponder antenna pointed down below the airplane (location under the back seat).should I get rid of the current egg shaped ground plane or leave it as is? This is just like being married.I tell my wife.just tell me what to do and I will do it.I don't have to think that way!!! .. Cheers!!! Bill Hunter From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 7:38 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location Questions For There are two prime issues here . . . antenna performance with respect to ground plane which is easily addressed by reciting the physics behind the idea of ground plane. (1) If your antenna is hanging out in the breeze or perhaps located on top of a mast, there is no practical way to provide the ultimate in ground planes . . . conductive material radiating out from the base all the way to the horizon. Experience and measurement has demonstrated that a artificial plane fabricated of 'radials' can be a useful alternative to the acme of grounds . . . 4 or more RESONANT radials at the base of the antenna. More that 4 can be expanded upon to be an 'infinite' number of radials whereupon you have generated a solid disk with a radius equal to the height of the antenna. Yes, there ARE proximity effects for location of the antenna on unsymmetrical grounds . . . but you have to go into an RF lab with REALLY good equipment to identify/measure the effects. On a composite airplane, mount it on the disk. On a metal airplane, mount it to the skin . . . anywhere pending other issues wrapped up on proximity to a strong radiated signal . . . the transponder. (2) ADSB receivers are listening to 100+ watt digital signals from transmitters in line of sight and 10 miles or less distant. That is a HUGE signal compared to looking for a 25w marker beacon 50 miles away and perhaps over the horizon. A wet string hung under the fuselage would probably do must fine in terms of performance for receiving ADSB squitter. KISS . . . disk of aluminum with a legacy monopole is cheap, easy, works good, lasts a long time. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location
Questions For
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: May 23, 2016
Well, to some degree that is what experimental is about. Your transponder will need to be tested on the aircraft to meet the every two years requirement. That will show whether the signal meets requirements or not. You are sending around 200-250 watts up to perhaps 100nm for radar sites, less for ADS-B ground receivers. Compared to your com transmitter of 8-10 watts. As for your ADS-B receiver, you still want the antenna to have line of site view of transmitters, so you want it exposed on the belly, not up in a wheel well. Is there space right under the canard? Is the canard removable like on the Long EZ models? On 5/23/2016 7:57 AM, William Hunter wrote: > Wowthis inherent anal retentive desire I have to do it right the first > time is a real pain in the butt!!! > > > With respect to the ADS-B antennaI would like to mount it under the > canard essentially in the nose compartment wheel well areado you > suppose this would work? What size should the aluminum ground plane > be? Disk or square or egg shaped?!?! ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location Questions
For
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 23, 2016
I agree with Kelly. Connect the SV-261 transponder to the existing transponder antenna. If the previous transponder worked with that ground plane, then the new one will too. If you insist on making a new transponder ground plane, then 120 -130 mm square or round will be fine. As for the ADSB-470 receiver, mount the antenna with or without a ground plane anywhere you want, inside or outside, where it is 2 or more feet away from the transponder antenna. Like Bob said, the signal from the ground station or nearby aircraft will be so strong that a perfect receiving antenna is not required. Both the SV-261 and the ADSB-470 are ADS-B. One is OUT and one is IN. Do you also have the SV-GPS-2020? After your plane is flying with the new system, you can go flying and then request a report from the government to see if your transponder meets 2020 requirements. See this article: http://macsblog.com/2015/01/the-faa-likes-my-ads-b-out-performance/ -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456505#456505 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 23, 2016
Subject: Re: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location
Questions For
From: William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Hi all, thank you so much for your help it is greatly appreciated. >Do you also have the SV-GPS-2020 I did not get the dynon GPS 2020 because the Garmin has a GPS that is supposed to be 2020 compliant and it is connected to the arinc bus and that communicates all of the magic to the dynon Skyview system and that apparently makes everything legal. Thanks again for your help! Bill Hunter On May 23, 2016 10:47 AM, "user9253" wrote: > > I agree with Kelly. Connect the SV-261 transponder to the existing > transponder antenna. If the previous transponder worked with that ground > plane, then the new one will too. If you insist on making a new > transponder ground plane, then 120 -130 mm square or round will be fine. > As for the ADSB-470 receiver, mount the antenna with or without a ground > plane anywhere you want, inside or outside, where it is 2 or more feet away > from the transponder antenna. Like Bob said, the signal from the ground > station or nearby aircraft will be so strong that a perfect receiving > antenna is not required. > Both the SV-261 and the ADSB-470 are ADS-B. One is OUT and one is IN. > Do you also have the SV-GPS-2020? > After your plane is flying with the new system, you can go flying and > then request a report from the government to see if your transponder meets > 2020 requirements. See this article: > http://macsblog.com/2015/01/the-faa-likes-my-ads-b-out-performance/ > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456505#456505 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 23, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location
Questions For There are two prime issues here . . . antenna performance with respect to ground plane which is easily addressed by reciting the physics behind the idea of ground plane. (1) If your antenna is hanging out in the breeze or perhaps located on top of a mast, there is no practical way to provide the ultimate in ground planes . . . conductive material radiating out from the base all the way to the horizon. Experience and measurement has demonstrated that a artificial plane fabricated of 'radials' can be a useful alternative to the acme of grounds . . . 4 or more RESONANT radials at the base of the antenna. More that 4 can be expanded upon to be an 'infinite' number of radials whereupon you have generated a solid disk with a radius equal to the height of the antenna. Yes, there ARE proximity effects for location of the antenna on unsymmetrical grounds . . . but you have to go into an RF lab with REALLY good equipment to identify/measure the effects. On a composite airplane, mount it on the disk. On a metal airplane, mount it to the skin . . . anywhere pending other issues wrapped up on proximity to a strong radiated signal . . . the transponder. (2) ADSB receivers are listening to 100+ watt digital signals from transmitters in line of sight and 10 miles or less distant. That is a HUGE signal compared to looking for a 25w marker beacon 50 miles away and perhaps over the horizon. A wet string hung under the fuselage would probably do must fine in terms of performance for receiving ADSB squitter. KISS . . . disk of aluminum with a legacy monopole is cheap, easy, works good, lasts a long time. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 24, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location
Questions For At 09:57 AM 5/23/2016, you wrote: >Wow=85this inherent anal retentive desire I have >to =93do it right the first time=94 is a real pain in the butt!!! > > >A wet string hung under the fuselage would > probably do must fine in terms of performance > for receiving ADSB squitter. KISS . . . disk of > aluminum with a legacy monopole is cheap, easy, works good, lasts a long time.> > >The Dynon manual sure made a big deal about the >EXACT size and shape of the antenna in a >composite=85I was thinking that an aluminum >airplane would certainly not be the exact size and shape=85 Exactly. The only time the size and shape has greatest effect is for the 'resonant' or '1/4-wave radial' style of ground plane which is, in fact, an array of 4 to many 1/4-wave resonators paralleled at the base of the antenna. If that is not practical, then simply get as much aluminum under the antenna as practical/possible . . . if that happens to be the belly of a whole airplane, great! If it's limited to 11.3 square inches of oddly shaped aluminum, you would probably have to go to the antenna lab to measure the real differences . . . in practice it's probably nothing you will be able to observe. > >Anyhoo=85Bob to confirm your communication before I start cutting and gluing=85 > >With respect to the ADS-B antenna=85I would like >to mount it under the canard essentially in the >nose compartment wheel well area=85do you suppose >this would work? What size should the aluminum >ground plane be? Disk or square or egg shaped?!?! Give it a try. Obviously, getting it outside with all metals "below" the ground plane is ideal. But a lot of builders have experienced satisfactory operations of transponders from a variety of installations inside the confines of a composite structure. Archer Xpnder antennas glued to the inside of the tail is a noteworthy example. In fact, if you can fit an Archer antenna onto a mostly vertical section of real estate, intuitively I think I'd give that the highest probability for success. But if push comes to shove, you can always fabricate the idealize resonant ground plane disk and add the 'chin whisker' to the airplane . . . yeah . . . butt ugly . . . but what's a mother to do? There are folk's with big sticks who insist on 'keeping us safe' . . . > >With respect to the transponder antenna pointed >down below the airplane (location under the back >seat)=85should I get rid of the current egg shaped >ground plane or leave it as is? If it has been working well I see no need to fiddle with it . . . > >This is just like being married=85I tell my >wife=85just tell me what to do and I will do it=85I don=92t have to think that way!!! Except this is just physics. The simple-ideas in behaviors of energy and materials. It's that energy stuff we can't see, touch or smell so we're victim to and limited by a whole lot of anecdotal and/or poorly reasoned supposition. But go spend a few years chasing electrons on airplanes with test equipment that can see, touch and smell that energy and life gets much more confident . . . maybe not easier but at least less risky. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location Questions
For
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 24, 2016
Here is a link to articles written by Bob Archer, including the transponder antenna. http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/Antennas_for_Aircraft.pdf He says, "I would not recommend putting the ground plane on the inside with the antenna element extending through the skin of the aircraft." I assume that means that the fiberglass should not be sandwiched between the mounting nut and the ground plane. The problem with compressing any type of plastic material within an electrical terminal is that plastic will flow over time resulting in loosening of the connection. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456526#456526 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location
Questions For
From: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 24, 2016
That "problem" might not really be much of an issue. I have a fibreglass spinner back plate mounted under the prop bolts with large washers. It's a tractor installation with the back plate forward of the aluminum prop hub. To my surprise the bolts do not lose torque even after several hundred flight hours. Ken On 24/05/2016 8:57 AM, user9253 wrote: > > Here is a link to articles written by Bob Archer, including the transponder antenna. > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/Antennas_for_Aircraft.pdf > He says, "I would not recommend putting the ground plane on the inside with the antenna element extending through the skin of the aircraft." > I assume that means that the fiberglass should not be sandwiched between the mounting nut and the ground plane. The problem with compressing any type of plastic material within an electrical terminal is that plastic will flow over time resulting in loosening of the connection. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456526#456526 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 24, 2016
Subject: Re: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location
Questions For
From: William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Thanks Joe, My strategy will be to mount the base of the monopo antenna directly to the ground plane sheet and then drill a hole down through the floor for the antenna to stick down through and screw the ground plane to the floor board... then just caulk around the hole. I shall report my progress. Bill Hunter Bill Hunter +1 408-464-1902 On May 24, 2016 8:34 AM, "C&K" wrote: > > That "problem" might not really be much of an issue. > I have a fibreglass spinner back plate mounted under the prop bolts with > large washers. It's a tractor installation with the back plate forward of > the aluminum prop hub. > To my surprise the bolts do not lose torque even after several hundred > flight hours. > Ken > > On 24/05/2016 8:57 AM, user9253 wrote: > >> >> Here is a link to articles written by Bob Archer, including the >> transponder antenna. >> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/Antennas_for_Aircraft.pdf >> He says, "I would not recommend putting the ground plane on the inside >> with the antenna element extending through the skin of the aircraft." >> I assume that means that the fiberglass should not be sandwiched >> between the mounting nut and the ground plane. The problem with >> compressing any type of plastic material within an electrical terminal is >> that plastic will flow over time resulting in loosening of the connection. >> >> -------- >> Joe Gores >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456526#456526 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: May 24, 2016
I have an infinity stick as well. And never, ever considered putting the starter switch on the stick. I have assigned every switch on the stick to be only something that I would use while the aircraft is in motion to reduce the number of times I would have to remove my hand from the stick. Here's my list: PTT Com radio swap transponder ident EFIS page flip AP Engage Trim Starter, fuel pump, etc., are typically used once from startup to shutdown. In my book, that makes them impractical for the stick. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456546#456546 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 24, 2016
Subject: My Transponder Antenna Does Not Have Balls
From: William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Hi all, I did not want to hijack my own thread about the transponder and ADS-B antenna co-location/Ground Plane Size so I figured I would start this one I just in case somebody else has this question. On my composite airplane the previous builder had installed the transponder antenna straight down through a hole in the floorboard. The base is attached to a metal groundplane that is mounted on top of the floor board under the back seat. This is all good except I noticed that to install the transponder antenna through the hole in the floorboard they cut the ball off the end of the antenna. Now I really don't care if my antenna have balls or not however my concern is if the length of the antenna has been shortened because the ball has been cut off is that going to affect the performance of the transmitter? The airplane has minimal time on it and the previous owner flew VFR mostly so I cannot confirm or deny if the antenna was working good previously. These antennae are pretty cheap so if you all think that it might be best to replace the antenna with one with balls then I will do so. If not my neutered antenna will stay. Thanks for your help! Bill Hunter ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 25, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: My Transponder Antenna Does Not Have Balls
>These antennae are pretty cheap so if you all think that it might be >best to replace the antenna with one with balls then I will do so. >If not my neutered antenna will stay. It's true that removing the spherical tip shortened the antenna and raised its resonant frequency . . . but I doubt that it makes much difference from a performance perspective. Most manufacturers put those balls on for reducing risk of personal injury . . . kinda like those plastic hoodies they put on ends of re-bar extending out the top of concrete walls on a construction site. In another instance, the spherical tip COULD be intended to reduce coronal discharge at the tip during transponder reply time when voltages at the tip might be several thousand volts . . . and at altitude where the rarified air ionizes easier. But replacing it is probably a personal preference for reducing the severity of the wound should anyone inadvertently come in contact with it. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross Home" <rossmickey(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch
Date: May 25, 2016
Ditto on Infinity. Here is my set-up PTT Coolie hat aileron/elevator trim Flaps (momentary down, hard up to dump flaps with one motion) EFIS page flip AP Engage Intercom/radio re-play (the radio automatically records) Ross -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of donjohnston Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 6:18 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch --> <don@velocity-xl.com> I have an infinity stick as well. And never, ever considered putting the starter switch on the stick. I have assigned every switch on the stick to be only something that I would use while the aircraft is in motion to reduce the number of times I would have to remove my hand from the stick. Here's my list: PTT Com radio swap transponder ident EFIS page flip AP Engage Trim Starter, fuel pump, etc., are typically used once from startup to shutdown. In my book, that makes them impractical for the stick. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456546#456546 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 25, 2016
Subject: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch
From: William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Thanks Don... good stuff. I pretty much have the same switch assignment on my Aero Grip. I hate having a switch installed in the airplane that does not do something... now that I eliminated the starter feature perhaps I could assign that switch to something already installed in the airplane like the taxi light, seat vibratory massage, satcom internet, or the disco ball motor... or... I guess I will have to dream up some new feature to add to the airplane so that the switch can actually do something. THANKS AGAIN!!! Bill Hunter On May 24, 2016 6:27 PM, "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com> wrote: > don@velocity-xl.com> > > I have an infinity stick as well. And never, ever considered putting the > starter switch on the stick. I have assigned every switch on the stick to > be only something that I would use while the aircraft is in motion to > reduce the number of times I would have to remove my hand from the stick. > > Here's my list: > > PTT > Com radio swap > transponder ident > EFIS page flip > AP Engage > Trim > > Starter, fuel pump, etc., are typically used once from startup to > shutdown. In my book, that makes them impractical for the stick. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456546#456546 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 25, 2016
Subject: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch
From: William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
No disco ball... really... kinda minimalist?!? What is the EFIS page advance feature we (you all) speak of? Bill Hunter On May 25, 2016 11:13 AM, "Ross Home" wrote: > rossmickey(at)comcast.net> > > Ditto on Infinity. Here is my set-up > > PTT > Coolie hat aileron/elevator trim > Flaps (momentary down, hard up to dump flaps with one motion) > EFIS page flip > AP Engage > Intercom/radio re-play (the radio automatically records) > > Ross > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > donjohnston > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 6:18 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch > > --> <don@velocity-xl.com> > > I have an infinity stick as well. And never, ever considered putting the > starter switch on the stick. I have assigned every switch on the stick to > be only something that I would use while the aircraft is in motion to > reduce > the number of times I would have to remove my hand from the stick. > > Here's my list: > > PTT > Com radio swap > transponder ident > EFIS page flip > AP Engage > Trim > > Starter, fuel pump, etc., are typically used once from startup to shutdown. > In my book, that makes them impractical for the stick. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456546#456546 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross Home" <rossmickey(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch
Date: May 25, 2016
The Grand Rapids Technology Engine Monitor has different engine analysis displayed on different =9Cpages=9D which are actually what is being seen on the screen. I should have said EIS page flip rather than EFIS page flip. http://www.grtavionics.com/eis4000.html Ross From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Hunter Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 11:17 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch No disco ball... really... kinda minimalist?!? What is the EFIS page advance feature we (you all) speak of? Bill Hunter On May 25, 2016 11:13 AM, "Ross Home" > wrote: > Ditto on Infinity. Here is my set-up PTT Coolie hat aileron/elevator trim Flaps (momentary down, hard up to dump flaps with one motion) EFIS page flip AP Engage Intercom/radio re-play (the radio automatically records) Ross -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com ] On Behalf Of donjohnston Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 6:18 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch --> <don@velocity-xl.com > I have an infinity stick as well. And never, ever considered putting the starter switch on the stick. I have assigned every switch on the stick to be only something that I would use while the aircraft is in motion to reduce the number of times I would have to remove my hand from the stick. Here's my list: PTT Com radio swap transponder ident EFIS page flip AP Engage Trim Starter, fuel pump, etc., are typically used once from startup to shutdown. In my book, that makes them impractical for the stick. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456546#456546 - Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 25, 2016
Subject: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch
From: William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Got it... Bill Hunter On May 25, 2016 11:39 AM, "Ross Home" wrote: > The Grand Rapids Technology Engine Monitor has different engine analysis > displayed on different =9Cpages=9D which are actually what is being seen on the > screen. I should have said EIS page flip rather than EFIS page flip. > > > http://www.grtavionics.com/eis4000.html > > > Ross > > > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: > owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *William > Hunter > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 25, 2016 11:17 AM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter > Switch > > > No disco ball... really... kinda minimalist?!? > > What is the EFIS page advance feature we (you all) speak of? > > Bill Hunter > > On May 25, 2016 11:13 AM, "Ross Home" wrote: > > rossmickey(at)comcast.net> > > Ditto on Infinity. Here is my set-up > > PTT > Coolie hat aileron/elevator trim > Flaps (momentary down, hard up to dump flaps with one motion) > EFIS page flip > AP Engage > Intercom/radio re-play (the radio automatically records) > > Ross > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > donjohnston > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 6:18 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch > > --> <don@velocity-xl.com> > > I have an infinity stick as well. And never, ever considered putting the > starter switch on the stick. I have assigned every switch on the stick t o > be only something that I would use while the aircraft is in motion to > reduce > the number of times I would have to remove my hand from the stick. > > Here's my list: > > PTT > Com radio swap > transponder ident > EFIS page flip > AP Engage > Trim > > Starter, fuel pump, etc., are typically used once from startup to shutdow n. > In my book, that makes them impractical for the stick. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456546#456546 > > > ========== > - > Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ========== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > WIKI - > errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > ========== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n > ========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: May 25, 2016
billhuntersemail(at)gmail wrote: > What is the EFIS page advance feature we (you all) speak of? The HX series have a number of "pages". PFD, Engine, Map, etc. There is a "page flip" function where pressing a switch will cause the page to toggle between PFD and Map screen. So while you're flying along, hit the "page" button on the stick and the screen changes to a full screen map. Hit the button again, and it goes back to the PFD. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456562#456562 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch
From: GTH <gilles.thesee(at)free.fr>
Date: May 26, 2016
/Le 25/05/2016 19:31, Ross Home a crit : / > Ditto on Infinity. Here is my set-up PTT > Coolie hat aileron/elevator trim Flaps (momentary down, hard up to > dump flaps with one motion) / Hi all, Some years ago a homebuilder installed a flap button on top of his sticks on his MCR Sporster two seater. One day his wife inadvertently hit the button with her map and retracted the flaps during takeoff... He told us the recovery involved quite a bit of the "bag of luck" any pilot starts his flying life with. -- Best regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ross Home" <rossmickey(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch
Date: May 26, 2016
I only have one Infinity grip. The passenger stick (when installed) has no functions. The PTT for the passenger is located at the far forward portion of the armrest. It would be very difficult for the passenger to inadvertently touch the pilots Infinity. Also, having the flap switch on the Infinity be a momentary switch for extending the flaps makes inadvertent hits by the pilot a non-event. This would also be difficult as this switch is on top far right. Ross From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of GTH Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2016 2:03 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch Le 25/05/2016 =E0 19:31, Ross Home a =E9crit : Ditto on Infinity. Here is my set-up PTT Coolie hat aileron/elevator trim Flaps (momentary down, hard up to dump flaps with one motion) Hi all, Some years ago a homebuilder installed a flap button on top of his sticks on his MCR Sporster two seater. One day his wife inadvertently hit the button with her map and retracted the flaps during takeoff... He told us the recovery involved quite a bit of the "bag of luck" any pilot starts his flying life with. -- Best regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
From: YanisK(at)aol.com
Date: May 26, 2016
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 05/25/16
Please remove me from the mailing list _yanisk(at)aol.com_ (mailto:yanisk(at)aol.com) In a message dated 5/26/2016 12:11:57 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com writes: * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete AeroElectric-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the AeroElectric-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 16-05-25&Archive=AeroElectric Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 2016-05-25&Archive=AeroElectric =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/25/16: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:54 AM - Re: My Transponder Antenna Does Not Have Balls (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 11:06 AM - Re: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch (Ross Home) 3. 11:16 AM - Re: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch (William Hunter) 4. 11:18 AM - Re: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch (William Hunter) 5. 11:33 AM - Re: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch (Ross Home) 6. 12:34 PM - Re: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch (William Hunter) 7. 05:59 PM - Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch (donjohnston) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: My Transponder Antenna Does Not Have Balls >These antennae are pretty cheap so if you all think that it might be >best to replace the antenna with one with balls then I will do so. >If not my neutered antenna will stay. It's true that removing the spherical tip shortened the antenna and raised its resonant frequency . . . but I doubt that it makes much difference from a performance perspective. Most manufacturers put those balls on for reducing risk of personal injury . . . kinda like those plastic hoodies they put on ends of re-bar extending out the top of concrete walls on a construction site. In another instance, the spherical tip COULD be intended to reduce coronal discharge at the tip during transponder reply time when voltages at the tip might be several thousand volts . . . and at altitude where the rarified air ionizes easier. But replacing it is probably a personal preference for reducing the severity of the wound should anyone inadvertently come in contact with it. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ From: "Ross Home" <rossmickey(at)comcast.net> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch Ditto on Infinity. Here is my set-up PTT Coolie hat aileron/elevator trim Flaps (momentary down, hard up to dump flaps with one motion) EFIS page flip AP Engage Intercom/radio re-play (the radio automatically records) Ross -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of donjohnston Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 6:18 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch --> <don@velocity-xl.com> I have an infinity stick as well. And never, ever considered putting the starter switch on the stick. I have assigned every switch on the stick to be only something that I would use while the aircraft is in motion to reduce the number of times I would have to remove my hand from the stick. Here's my list: PTT Com radio swap transponder ident EFIS page flip AP Engage Trim Starter, fuel pump, etc., are typically used once from startup to shutdown. In my book, that makes them impractical for the stick. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456546#456546 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch From: William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> Thanks Don... good stuff. I pretty much have the same switch assignment on my Aero Grip. I hate having a switch installed in the airplane that does not do something... now that I eliminated the starter feature perhaps I could assign that switch to something already installed in the airplane like the taxi light, seat vibratory massage, satcom internet, or the disco ball motor... or... I guess I will have to dream up some new feature to add to the airplane so that the switch can actually do something. THANKS AGAIN!!! Bill Hunter On May 24, 2016 6:27 PM, "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com> wrote: > don@velocity-xl.com> > > I have an infinity stick as well. And never, ever considered putting the > starter switch on the stick. I have assigned every switch on the stick to > be only something that I would use while the aircraft is in motion to > reduce the number of times I would have to remove my hand from the stick. > > Here's my list: > > PTT > Com radio swap > transponder ident > EFIS page flip > AP Engage > Trim > > Starter, fuel pump, etc., are typically used once from startup to > shutdown. In my book, that makes them impractical for the stick. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456546#456546 > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch From: William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> No disco ball... really... kinda minimalist?!? What is the EFIS page advance feature we (you all) speak of? Bill Hunter On May 25, 2016 11:13 AM, "Ross Home" wrote: > rossmickey(at)comcast.net> > > Ditto on Infinity. Here is my set-up > > PTT > Coolie hat aileron/elevator trim > Flaps (momentary down, hard up to dump flaps with one motion) > EFIS page flip > AP Engage > Intercom/radio re-play (the radio automatically records) > > Ross > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > donjohnston > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 6:18 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch > > --> <don@velocity-xl.com> > > I have an infinity stick as well. And never, ever considered putting the > starter switch on the stick. I have assigned every switch on the stick to > be only something that I would use while the aircraft is in motion to > reduce > the number of times I would have to remove my hand from the stick. > > Here's my list: > > PTT > Com radio swap > transponder ident > EFIS page flip > AP Engage > Trim > > Starter, fuel pump, etc., are typically used once from startup to shutdown. > In my book, that makes them impractical for the stick. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456546#456546 > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ From: "Ross Home" <rossmickey(at)comcast.net> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch The Grand Rapids Technology Engine Monitor has different engine analysis displayed on different =9Cpages=9D which are actually what is being seen on the screen. I should have said EIS page flip rather than EFIS page flip. http://www.grtavionics.com/eis4000.html Ross From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Hunter Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 11:17 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch No disco ball... really... kinda minimalist?!? What is the EFIS page advance feature we (you all) speak of? Bill Hunter On May 25, 2016 11:13 AM, "Ross Home" > wrote: > Ditto on Infinity. Here is my set-up PTT Coolie hat aileron/elevator trim Flaps (momentary down, hard up to dump flaps with one motion) EFIS page flip AP Engage Intercom/radio re-play (the radio automatically records) Ross -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com ] On Behalf Of donjohnston Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 6:18 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch --> <don@velocity-xl.com > I have an infinity stick as well. And never, ever considered putting the starter switch on the stick. I have assigned every switch on the stick to be only something that I would use while the aircraft is in motion to reduce the number of times I would have to remove my hand from the stick. Here's my list: PTT Com radio swap transponder ident EFIS page flip AP Engage Trim Starter, fuel pump, etc., are typically used once from startup to shutdown. In my book, that makes them impractical for the stick. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456546#456546 - Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch From: William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> Got it... Bill Hunter On May 25, 2016 11:39 AM, "Ross Home" wrote: > The Grand Rapids Technology Engine Monitor has different engine analysis > displayed on different =9Cpages=9D which are actually what is being seen on the > screen. I should have said EIS page flip rather than EFIS page flip. > > > http://www.grtavionics.com/eis4000.html > > > Ross > > > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: > owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *William > Hunter > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 25, 2016 11:17 AM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter > Switch > > > No disco ball... really... kinda minimalist?!? > > What is the EFIS page advance feature we (you all) speak of? > > Bill Hunter > > On May 25, 2016 11:13 AM, "Ross Home" wrote: > > rossmickey(at)comcast.net> > > Ditto on Infinity. Here is my set-up > > PTT > Coolie hat aileron/elevator trim > Flaps (momentary down, hard up to dump flaps with one motion) > EFIS page flip > AP Engage > Intercom/radio re-play (the radio automatically records) > > Ross > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of > donjohnston > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 6:18 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch > > --> <don@velocity-xl.com> > > I have an infinity stick as well. And never, ever considered putting the > starter switch on the stick. I have assigned every switch on the stick t o > be only something that I would use while the aircraft is in motion to > reduce > the number of times I would have to remove my hand from the stick. > > Here's my list: > > PTT > Com radio swap > transponder ident > EFIS page flip > AP Engage > Trim > > Starter, fuel pump, etc., are typically used once from startup to shutdow n. > In my book, that makes them impractical for the stick. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456546#456546 > > > ========= > - > Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ========= > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > ========= > WIKI - > errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > ========= > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n > ========= > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com> billhuntersemail(at)gmail wrote: > What is the EFIS page advance feature we (you all) speak of? The HX series have a number of "pages". PFD, Engine, Map, etc. There is a "page flip" function where pressing a switch will cause the page to toggle between PFD and Map screen. So while you're flying along, hit the "page" button on the stick and the screen changes to a full screen map. Hit the button again, and it goes back to the PFD. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456562#456562 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 26, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 05/25/16
At 11:44 AM 5/26/2016, you wrote: >Please remove me from the mailing list yanisk(at)aol.com You can do this yourself at http://tinyurl.com/rp8st where you can modify the status of any matronics.com subscription. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Hunter" <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Dynon SV/ Garmin GTN-650/ Dynon Comm/ Dynon ADS-B
Date: May 26, 2016
Kelly...on another thread says> I have the same equipment in my RV-10. Can I talk you into giving me some operational advice on the Dynon SV/ Garmin GTN-650/ Dynon Comm/ Dynon ADS-B? I have done a remodel of my instrument panel and have offloaded a bunch of old boat anchor equipment (GX-60, SL-90, SL-30, SL-40) and now the panel will be equipped with two SV-1000 screens, a SL-15 Audio Panel, a GTN-650, Dynon Comm radio, Dynon transponder, and Dynon ADS-B., and ForeFlight iPad through the Dynon WIFI. If anyone has this same setup, can you please give me some operational advice? What GPS system do you use during normal operations? I know the GTN needs to be used during approaches however the question I guess is do you use it as the primary source all of the time or do you use the Dynon for enroute and VMC operations and the GTN only when you need it? How does the iPad integrate with the Dynon? With Foreflight and SV all I need to do is to plan my flight at home and then when I get to the airplane I zap over the course from ForeFlight to the SV and the course magically appears on the screen. Also when you are "rubber banding" the course on the iPad it gets applied to the SV? On my old panel the GX-60 just sat there like a boat anchor...Now that the GTN is in the picture what is the best way to zap all of this stuff around? Does the ADS-B traffic/weather appear on the iPad? Does the ADS-B traffic/weather appear on the GTN? Same question with the Dynon Com radio. Do you use it as primary or do use the GTN? I guess I am asking if anyone who has blazed this trail if you can please give me some tips/pointer/advice??? .. Cheers!!! Bill Hunter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 6:24 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location Questions For --> I think you are confusing yourself with too much information. What you have is the Dynon(Trig) SV-261 transponder, which is the Out unit on 1090-ES. This should be connected to your existing monopole transponder antenna. Then you have the SV-470 ADS-B Receiver or In unit. It needs the same variety antenna, but not a ground plane, and can be anywhere that is at least 2 ft away from your existing transponder antenna. Do not get confused about the GTN-650. It is a GPS/Nav/Com unit that does NOT receive any ADS-B or other traffic information on its own. It is only able to display information received by your transponder or ADS-B In unit. I have the same equipment in my RV-10. My transponder antenna is a short distance behind the firewall on the belly. My ADS-B receiver antenna is on the belly in the tailcone. I realize with a canard, your convenient locations are different...just get the distance you need. Under the Canard should be fine, if you can get the distance and easy mounting. On 5/22/2016 9:56 PM, William Hunter wrote: > Joe, > > This is really valuable information. Sounds like you know your stuff > so if I could kindly pick a bit more of your brain > > I am running the SV-XPNDR-260 and it is supposed to be the > higher-powered transponder that dynon offers I'm running the dynon > ADDB receiver for traffic. > > The ideal location for convenience of installation would be to install > the monopole antenna directly underneath the Canard. If I installed > it like I am thinking then the monopole antenna would be sticking down > from the Cunard and since the Canard is mounted up high in the nose > cone of the airplane the antenna would not be sticking out below the > bottom of the airplane assuming there's no carbon graphite in that > section of the airplane and assuming there's no paint that has some > kind of chromate based material then my question is would the antenna > be able to still receive the ground-based signals? > > To add to my confusion I will also be running a Garmin gtn - 650 and > it is supposed to be able to receive ADS-B signals. . Should I > purchase an additional monopole antenna for that unit as well or > should I just run with the dynon unit? > > Subject is way out of my league so any help from you or some of the > other sharp guys on this forum would be greatly helpful! > > THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR HELP!!! > > Bill Hunter > > On May 22, 2016 6:30 PM, "user9253" > wrote: > > > > > Assuming that you are installing the SV-XPNDR-261, why not use the > existing transponder antenna? Since the original transponder worked > OK with that egg shaped ground plane, that reinforces my post that > shape and size makes a theoretical difference, but is not critical > in real life. > The SV-ADSB-470 antenna is receive only. It will not affect the > operation of ADAHRS or Magnetometer. Keep the ADSB-470 antenna away > from other transmitting antennas, especially the transponder antenna. > The SV-ADSB-470 receives 978 only, not 1090. If you are out of > range of an ADS-B ground station (maybe in a traffic pattern), you > will not see traffic transmitting ADS-B out on 1090, i.e., other > SkyView transponders. Dynon needs to offer a dual band ADS-B receiver. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456477#456477 > > > ========== > - > Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ========== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > WIKI - > errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > ========== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Russ <rairey(at)cogeco.ca>
Subject: Re: Dynon SV/ Garmin GTN-650/ Dynon Comm/ Dynon ADS-B
Date: May 26, 2016
Hi Bill. I have allow the exact setup as you except I kept one anchor,mother SL30. I needed a second VOR. Been flying under the whole system for about a year. Russ > On May 26, 2016, at 20:58, William Hunter wro te: > l(at)gmail.com> > > Kelly...on another thread says> I have the same equipment in my RV-10. > > Can I talk you into giving me some operational advice on the Dynon SV/ Gar min GTN-650/ Dynon Comm/ Dynon ADS-B? > > I have done a remodel of my instrument panel and have offloaded a bunch of old boat anchor equipment (GX-60, SL-90, SL-30, SL-40) and now the panel wi ll be equipped with two SV-1000 screens, a SL-15 Audio Panel, a GTN-650, Dyn on Comm radio, Dynon transponder, and Dynon ADS-B., and ForeFlight iPad thro ugh the Dynon WIFI. > > If anyone has this same setup, can you please give me some operational adv ice? > > What GPS system do you use during normal operations? I know the GTN needs to be used during approaches however the question I guess is do you use it a s the primary source all of the time or do you use the Dynon for enroute and VMC operations and the GTN only when you need it? > > How does the iPad integrate with the Dynon? With Foreflight and SV all I n eed to do is to plan my flight at home and then when I get to the airplane I zap over the course from ForeFlight to the SV and the course magically appe ars on the screen. Also when you are "rubber banding" the course on the iPa d it gets applied to the SV? On my old panel the GX-60 just sat there like a boat anchor...Now that the GTN is in the picture what is the best way to za p all of this stuff around? > > Does the ADS-B traffic/weather appear on the iPad? > > Does the ADS-B traffic/weather appear on the GTN? > > Same question with the Dynon Com radio. Do you use it as primary or do us e the GTN? > > I guess I am asking if anyone who has blazed this trail if you can please g ive me some tips/pointer/advice??? > > .. > > Cheers!!! > > Bill Hunter > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelect ric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 6:24 AM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting L ocation Questions For > > --> > > I think you are confusing yourself with too much information. What you hav e is the Dynon(Trig) SV-261 transponder, which is the Out unit on 1090-ES. T his should be connected to your existing monopole transponder antenna. Then y ou have the SV-470 ADS-B Receiver or In unit. It needs the same variety ante nna, but not a ground plane, and can be anywhere that is at least 2 ft away f rom your existing transponder antenna. > Do not get confused about the GTN-650. It is a GPS/Nav/Com unit that does N OT receive any ADS-B or other traffic information on its own. It is only abl e to display information received by your transponder or ADS-B In unit. > I have the same equipment in my RV-10. My transponder antenna is a short d istance behind the firewall on the belly. My ADS-B receiver antenna is on th e belly in the tailcone. I realize with a canard, your convenient locations a re different...just get the distance you need. Under the Canard should be fi ne, if you can get the distance and easy mounting. > >> On 5/22/2016 9:56 PM, William Hunter wrote: >> Joe, >> >> This is really valuable information. Sounds like you know your stuff >> so if I could kindly pick a bit more of your brain >> >> I am running the SV-XPNDR-260 and it is supposed to be the >> higher-powered transponder that dynon offers I'm running the dynon >> ADDB receiver for traffic. >> >> The ideal location for convenience of installation would be to install >> the monopole antenna directly underneath the Canard. If I installed >> it like I am thinking then the monopole antenna would be sticking down >> from the Cunard and since the Canard is mounted up high in the nose >> cone of the airplane the antenna would not be sticking out below the >> bottom of the airplane assuming there's no carbon graphite in that >> section of the airplane and assuming there's no paint that has some >> kind of chromate based material then my question is would the antenna >> be able to still receive the ground-based signals? >> >> To add to my confusion I will also be running a Garmin gtn - 650 and >> it is supposed to be able to receive ADS-B signals. . Should I >> purchase an additional monopole antenna for that unit as well or >> should I just run with the dynon unit? >> >> Subject is way out of my league so any help from you or some of the >> other sharp guys on this forum would be greatly helpful! >> >> THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR HELP!!! >> >> Bill Hunter >> >> On May 22, 2016 6:30 PM, "user9253" > > wrote: >> >> > >> >> Assuming that you are installing the SV-XPNDR-261, why not use the >> existing transponder antenna? Since the original transponder worked >> OK with that egg shaped ground plane, that reinforces my post that >> shape and size makes a theoretical difference, but is not critical >> in real life. >> The SV-ADSB-470 antenna is receive only. It will not affect the >> operation of ADAHRS or Magnetometer. Keep the ADSB-470 antenna away >> from other transmitting antennas, especially the transponder antenna. >> The SV-ADSB-470 receives 978 only, not 1090. If you are out of >> range of an ADS-B ground station (maybe in a traffic pattern), you >> will not see traffic transmitting ADS-B out on 1090, i.e., other >> SkyView transponders. Dynon needs to offer a dual band ADS-B receiver . >> >> -------- >> Joe Gores >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456477#456477 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> - >> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" >> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ========== >> FORUMS - >> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> WIKI - >> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >> ========== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribu tion >> ========== > > > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Dynon SV/ Garmin GTN-650/ Dynon Comm/ Dynon ADS-B
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: May 26, 2016
See inserted comments, and research the Dynon product info on their website. On 5/26/2016 5:58 PM, William Hunter wrote: > > What GPS system do you use during normal operations? I know the GTN needs to be used during approaches however the question I guess is do you use it as the primary source all of the time or do you use the Dynon for enroute and VMC operations and the GTN only when you need it? FOLLOW THE DYNON ADVICE, USE THE DYNON GPS TO DRIVE THE EFIS, AND GARMIN TO DRIVE THE HSI. > How does the iPad integrate with the Dynon? With Foreflight and SV all I need to do is to plan my flight at home and then when I get to the airplane I zap over the course from ForeFlight to the SV and the course magically appears on the screen. Also when you are "rubber banding" the course on the iPad it gets applied to the SV? On my old panel the GX-60 just sat there like a boat anchor...Now that the GTN is in the picture what is the best way to zap all of this stuff around? DYNON SELLS A DONGLE TO PROVIDE WIFI COMMUNICATION WITH IPAD AND FOREFLIGHT including transfer of flight plan. > Does the ADS-B traffic/weather appear on the iPad? > WITH THE WIFI DONGLE, YES > Does the ADS-B traffic/weather appear on the GTN? > DON'T KNOW. NOT ENOUGH SCREEN SPACE ON THE 650..WHY BOTHER WHEN YOU CAN SEE IT ON THE DYNON > Same question with the Dynon Com radio. Do you use it as primary or do use the GTN? A FRIEND USES HIS DYNON RATHER THAN HIS 430W. I USE SL-30 RATHER THAN GTN-650 > I guess I am asking if anyone who has blazed this trail if you can please give me some tips/pointer/advice??? > > .. > > Cheers!!! > > Bill Hunter > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 6:24 AM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location Questions For > > --> > > I think you are confusing yourself with too much information. What you have is the Dynon(Trig) SV-261 transponder, which is the Out unit on 1090-ES. This should be connected to your existing monopole transponder antenna. Then you have the SV-470 ADS-B Receiver or In unit. It needs the same variety antenna, but not a ground plane, and can be anywhere that is at least 2 ft away from your existing transponder antenna. > Do not get confused about the GTN-650. It is a GPS/Nav/Com unit that does NOT receive any ADS-B or other traffic information on its own. It is only able to display information received by your transponder or ADS-B In unit. > I have the same equipment in my RV-10. My transponder antenna is a short distance behind the firewall on the belly. My ADS-B receiver antenna is on the belly in the tailcone. I realize with a canard, your convenient locations are different...just get the distance you need. Under the Canard should be fine, if you can get the distance and easy mounting. > > On 5/22/2016 9:56 PM, William Hunter wrote: >> Joe, >> >> This is really valuable information. Sounds like you know your stuff >> so if I could kindly pick a bit more of your brain >> >> I am running the SV-XPNDR-260 and it is supposed to be the >> higher-powered transponder that dynon offers I'm running the dynon >> ADDB receiver for traffic. >> >> The ideal location for convenience of installation would be to install >> the monopole antenna directly underneath the Canard. If I installed >> it like I am thinking then the monopole antenna would be sticking down >> from the Cunard and since the Canard is mounted up high in the nose >> cone of the airplane the antenna would not be sticking out below the >> bottom of the airplane assuming there's no carbon graphite in that >> section of the airplane and assuming there's no paint that has some >> kind of chromate based material then my question is would the antenna >> be able to still receive the ground-based signals? >> >> To add to my confusion I will also be running a Garmin gtn - 650 and >> it is supposed to be able to receive ADS-B signals. . Should I >> purchase an additional monopole antenna for that unit as well or >> should I just run with the dynon unit? >> >> Subject is way out of my league so any help from you or some of the >> other sharp guys on this forum would be greatly helpful! >> >> THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR HELP!!! >> >> Bill Hunter >> >> On May 22, 2016 6:30 PM, "user9253" > > wrote: >> >> > >> >> Assuming that you are installing the SV-XPNDR-261, why not use the >> existing transponder antenna? Since the original transponder worked >> OK with that egg shaped ground plane, that reinforces my post that >> shape and size makes a theoretical difference, but is not critical >> in real life. >> The SV-ADSB-470 antenna is receive only. It will not affect the >> operation of ADAHRS or Magnetometer. Keep the ADSB-470 antenna away >> from other transmitting antennas, especially the transponder antenna. >> The SV-ADSB-470 receives 978 only, not 1090. If you are out of >> range of an ADS-B ground station (maybe in a traffic pattern), you >> will not see traffic transmitting ADS-B out on 1090, i.e., other >> SkyView transponders. Dynon needs to offer a dual band ADS-B receiver. >> >> -------- >> Joe Gores >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456477#456477 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> - >> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" >> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ========== >> FORUMS - >> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> WIKI - >> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >> ========== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: GLEN MATEJCEK <fly4grins(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 27, 2016
Subject: Switchology and safety, was Infinity Aero Grip and
Starter Switch Switchology and safety, was Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch Some thoughts on switchology- My once a flight switches (IGN, starter, batteries, lights, pitot heat) are on the right edge on my panel (tandem cockpit), my frequently used and Oh Crap switches (fuel pump, flaps, trim master, A/P arm, OVM reset) are on the left edge of the panel, conveniently close to the throttle. The rear stick has trim and PTT switches, the front stick has trim, PTT, EFIS display advance, and A/P disconnect. One of the Oh Crap switches is a progressive that controls trim function. Up has both stick's trim functions live, center interrupts the rear stick trim switches ground, and down interrupts both sticks trim switches ground paths. This way, I can pre -emptively kill the trim function for the rear seat should I have a non-savvy passenger as well as killing the whole system if I have a trim runaway. FWIW, YMMV, ETC.... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 27, 2016
Subject: lengthening wires
I am having second thoughts about the future nightmare I may have created by choosing screw terminal switches with their tiny screws and washers for my panel. I have already completed most of the wiring with ring terminal ends, and there is not enough slack to just cut them off and replace them with fast on terminals. I don't consider completely re-doing all the wiring to be a very attractive option. My options seem to be: 1. just stick with what I have, ring terminals, screw connections to switches 2. cut off the terminals, butt splice on enough wire to allow for re-doing the ends with fast on terminals 3. come up with some other way of extending the wires, leaving the ring terminals intact, replacing the butt splice with some other type of connection to extend the wires If I were to stick with what I have, the one good thing is that I will have better access to the back side of the panel than most have. But without doubt if I were doing it over I would use fast ons. So I'm trying to decide if it's worth it to introduce butt splices to all the wires for the convenience of fast on terminals? My instincts are telling me to just go with what I have, as many airplanes have flown with switches that use screw terminals. But I sure wish that I had just used fast ons to begin with. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 27, 2016
Subject: Re: lengthening wires
From: William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
The screw in terminals arr what. is provided with MIL spec switches. If you have a EFIS screen then just remove the screen and then you will have a big hole to reach through... that is my strategy. Bill Hunter On May 27, 2016 1:56 PM, "Ken Ryan" wrote: I am having second thoughts about the future nightmare I may have created by choosing screw terminal switches with their tiny screws and washers for my panel. I have already completed most of the wiring with ring terminal ends, and there is not enough slack to just cut them off and replace them with fast on terminals. I don't consider completely re-doing all the wiring to be a very attractive option. My options seem to be: 1. just stick with what I have, ring terminals, screw connections to switches 2. cut off the terminals, butt splice on enough wire to allow for re-doing the ends with fast on terminals 3. come up with some other way of extending the wires, leaving the ring terminals intact, replacing the butt splice with some other type of connection to extend the wires If I were to stick with what I have, the one good thing is that I will have better access to the back side of the panel than most have. But without doubt if I were doing it over I would use fast ons. So I'm trying to decide if it's worth it to introduce butt splices to all the wires for the convenience of fast on terminals? My instincts are telling me to just go with what I have, as many airplanes have flown with switches that use screw terminals. But I sure wish that I had just used fast ons to begin with. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 27, 2016
Subject: Re: lengthening wires
Good point. On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 1:07 PM, William Hunter wrote: > The screw in terminals arr what. is provided with MIL spec switches. > > If you have a EFIS screen then just remove the screen and then you will > have a big hole to reach through... that is my strategy. > > Bill Hunter > On May 27, 2016 1:56 PM, "Ken Ryan" wrote: > > I am having second thoughts about the future nightmare I may have created > by choosing screw terminal switches with their tiny screws and washers for > my panel. > > I have already completed most of the wiring with ring terminal ends, and > there is not enough slack to just cut them off and replace them with fast > on terminals. > > I don't consider completely re-doing all the wiring to be a very > attractive option. > > My options seem to be: > > 1. just stick with what I have, ring terminals, screw connections to > switches > > 2. cut off the terminals, butt splice on enough wire to allow for re-doing > the ends with fast on terminals > > 3. come up with some other way of extending the wires, leaving the ring > terminals intact, replacing the butt splice with some other type of > connection to extend the wires > > If I were to stick with what I have, the one good thing is that I will > have better access to the back side of the panel than most have. But > without doubt if I were doing it over I would use fast ons. So I'm trying > to decide if it's worth it to introduce butt splices to all the wires for > the convenience of fast on terminals? > > My instincts are telling me to just go with what I have, as many airplanes > have flown with switches that use screw terminals. But I sure wish that I > had just used fast ons to begin with. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>
Subject: lengthening wires
Date: May 27, 2016
My vote would be to stay with what you've got. If you need to replace a terminal in the future, you will have to splice or slightly reroute the wire for more length. It is advisable to leave a little service loop (large radius bend) from the wire loom to the terminal so the terminal can be cut off several times and still have enough wire length without making the wire so tight that there is strain at the terminal. My .00 cents worth. Bevan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Ryan Sent: Friday, May 27, 2016 1:47 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: lengthening wires I am having second thoughts about the future nightmare I may have created by choosing screw terminal switches with their tiny screws and washers for my panel. I have already completed most of the wiring with ring terminal ends, and there is not enough slack to just cut them off and replace them with fast on terminals. I don't consider completely re-doing all the wiring to be a very attractive option. My options seem to be: 1. just stick with what I have, ring terminals, screw connections to switches 2. cut off the terminals, butt splice on enough wire to allow for re-doing the ends with fast on terminals 3. come up with some other way of extending the wires, leaving the ring terminals intact, replacing the butt splice with some other type of connection to extend the wires If I were to stick with what I have, the one good thing is that I will have better access to the back side of the panel than most have. But without doubt if I were doing it over I would use fast ons. So I'm trying to decide if it's worth it to introduce butt splices to all the wires for the convenience of fast on terminals? My instincts are telling me to just go with what I have, as many airplanes have flown with switches that use screw terminals. But I sure wish that I had just used fast ons to begin with. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: lengthening wires
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: May 27, 2016
Ken, Personally, I=99d stick with the screw and ring since that=99s how you are set up. They are a bit of a PITA to fiddly with but once in and with no strain on the wire they will be fine. Should you choose to go to the fast-on route you can extend wires neatly using D-Sub pins & sockets. Use the machined/crimp D-Subs (http://www.bandc.aero/d-subpin.aspx <http://www.bandc.aero/d-subpin.aspx> & http://www.bandc.aero/d-subsocket.aspx <http://www.bandc.aero/d-subsocket.aspx>). Cut your wire, crimp a plug onto the wire. Crimp a socket onto your extension wire. Join and cover with shrink tube and you have a nice, neat, extended wire. I hope this helps. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs). Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On May 27, 2016, at 3:46 PM, Ken Ryan wrote: I am having second thoughts about the future nightmare I may have created by choosing screw terminal switches with their tiny screws and washers for my panel. I have already completed most of the wiring with ring terminal ends, and there is not enough slack to just cut them off and replace them with fast on terminals. I don't consider completely re-doing all the wiring to be a very attractive option. My options seem to be: 1. just stick with what I have, ring terminals, screw connections to switches 2. cut off the terminals, butt splice on enough wire to allow for re-doing the ends with fast on terminals 3. come up with some other way of extending the wires, leaving the ring terminals intact, replacing the butt splice with some other type of connection to extend the wires If I were to stick with what I have, the one good thing is that I will have better access to the back side of the panel than most have. But without doubt if I were doing it over I would use fast ons. So I'm trying to decide if it's worth it to introduce butt splices to all the wires for the convenience of fast on terminals? My instincts are telling me to just go with what I have, as many airplanes have flown with switches that use screw terminals. But I sure wish that I had just used fast ons to begin with. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 27, 2016
Subject: Re: lengthening wires
Thanks guys. So far it's unanimous, stick with what I've got. Next airplane I will use fast ons. Live and learn. On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 1:45 PM, Robert Borger wrote: > Ken, > > Personally, I=99d stick with the screw and ring since that=99 s how you are set > up. They are a bit of a PITA to fiddly with but once in and with no stra in > on the wire they will be fine. > > Should you choose to go to the fast-on route you can extend wires neatly > using D-Sub pins & sockets. Use the machined/crimp D-Subs ( > http://www.bandc.aero/d-subpin.aspx & > http://www.bandc.aero/d-subsocket.aspx). Cut your wire, crimp a plug > onto the wire. Crimp a socket onto your extension wire. Join and cover > with shrink tube and you have a nice, neat, extended wire. > > I hope this helps. > > Blue skies & tailwinds, > Bob Borger > Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs). > Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP > 3705 Lynchburg Dr. > Corinth, TX 76208-5331 > Cel: 817-992-1117 > rlborger(at)mac.com > > On May 27, 2016, at 3:46 PM, Ken Ryan wrote: > > I am having second thoughts about the future nightmare I may have created > by choosing screw terminal switches with their tiny screws and washers fo r > my panel. > > I have already completed most of the wiring with ring terminal ends, and > there is not enough slack to just cut them off and replace them with fast > on terminals. > > I don't consider completely re-doing all the wiring to be a very > attractive option. > > My options seem to be: > > 1. just stick with what I have, ring terminals, screw connections to > switches > > 2. cut off the terminals, butt splice on enough wire to allow for re-doin g > the ends with fast on terminals > > 3. come up with some other way of extending the wires, leaving the ring > terminals intact, replacing the butt splice with some other type of > connection to extend the wires > > If I were to stick with what I have, the one good thing is that I will > have better access to the back side of the panel than most have. But > without doubt if I were doing it over I would use fast ons. So I'm trying > to decide if it's worth it to introduce butt splices to all the wires for > the convenience of fast on terminals? > > My instincts are telling me to just go with what I have, as many airplane s > have flown with switches that use screw terminals. But I sure wish that I > had just used fast ons to begin with. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Steinair web site
From: "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com>
Date: May 27, 2016
Hi Guys -- is it me, or does anyone else find the new 'steinair' web site a pain to navigate -- Regards: John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456634#456634 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au>
Subject: Re: Switchology and safety, was Infinity Aero Grip
and Starter Switch
Date: May 28, 2016
More food for thought. I have identical Infinity grips with 25pin D-sub connectors front and back in my tandem, so that I can swap the sticks if a stick switch happens to fail. I also fabricated an isolation circuit with two relays on vero board, controlled from small locking toggle switches on the CB panel. The front stick functions are wired directly to the output side of the vero board circuit. The rear stick functions can only reach the output side of the vero board if the relays are closed, bridging some broken copper tracks on the board. I now have the means to provide full functionality to the rear stick, trim only or nothing at all via two small switches up front. > On 27 May 2016, at 23:47, GLEN MATEJCEK wrote: > > Switchology and safety, was Infinity Aero Grip and Starter Switch > > Some thoughts on switchology- > > My once a flight switches (IGN, starter, batteries, lights, pitot heat) are on the right edge on my panel (tandem cockpit), my frequently used and Oh Crap switches (fuel pump, flaps, trim master, A/P arm, OVM reset) are on the left edge of the panel, conveniently close to the throttle. The rear stick has trim and PTT switches, the front stick has trim, PTT, EFIS display advance, and A/P disconnect. One of the Oh Crap switches is a progressive that controls trim function. Up has both stick's trim functions live, center interrupts the rear stick trim switches ground, and down interrupts both sticks trim switches ground paths. This way, I can pre-emptively kill the trim function for the rear seat should I have a non-savvy passenger as well as killing the whole system if I have a trim runaway. > > FWIW, YMMV, ETC.... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 27, 2016
Subject: Re: Steinair web site
From: William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
My guess is that Stein (of Steinair) will chime in soon... Bill Hunter On May 27, 2016 3:09 PM, "JOHN TIPTON" wrote: > jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> > > Hi Guys -- is it me, or does anyone else find the new 'steinair' web site > a pain to navigate -- Regards: John > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456634#456634 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 27, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: lengthening wires
>Should you choose to go to the fast-on route you >can extend wires neatly using D-Sub pins & >sockets.=C2 Use the machined/crimp D-Subs pine. >Cut your wire, crimp a plug onto the >wire.=C2 Crimp a socket onto your extension >wire.=C2 Join and cover with shrink tube and you >have a nice, neat, extended wire. The d-sub pins under shrink are fine for low current, 'service splices' . . . not unlike the legacy knife splices. But for permanent extensions of wires up to an including the 10A class (18AWG) I'd recommend the Po'Boy's solder sleeve technique to extend the leads. http://tinyurl.com/dgg2nb Much more robust both mechanically and electrically . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 27, 2016
Subject: Re: lengthening wires
From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Thanks for that Bob. I like it. You have now given me more food for thought. I think the tiny screws and washers would be very frustrating to work with. Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve. On May 27, 2016 17:54, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > Should you choose to go to the fast-on route you can extend wires neatly > using D-Sub pins & sockets.=C3=82 Use the machined/crimp D-Subs pine. Cu t your > wire, crimp a plug onto the wire.=C3=82 Crimp a socket onto your extensi on > wire.=C3=82 Join and cover with shrink tube and you have a nice, neat, e xtended > wire. > > > The d-sub pins under shrink are fine for > low current, 'service splices' . . . not > unlike the legacy knife splices. But for > permanent extensions of wires up to an > including the 10A class (18AWG) I'd > recommend the Po'Boy's solder sleeve > technique to extend the leads. > > http://tinyurl.com/dgg2nb > > Much more robust both mechanically and > electrically . . . > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 27, 2016
Subject: Re: lengthening wires
From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Question Bob ... for #20 wires would you choose the D-sub method or the poor boy's splice? Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve. On May 27, 2016 18:10, "Ken Ryan" wrote: > Thanks for that Bob. I like it. You have now given me more food for > thought. I think the tiny screws and washers would be very frustrating to > work with. > > Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve. > On May 27, 2016 17:54, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" < > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > >> Should you choose to go to the fast-on route you can extend wires neatly >> using D-Sub pins & sockets.=C3=82 Use the machined/crimp D-Subs pine. C ut your >> wire, crimp a plug onto the wire.=C3=82 Crimp a socket onto your extens ion >> wire.=C3=82 Join and cover with shrink tube and you have a nice, neat, extended >> wire. >> >> >> The d-sub pins under shrink are fine for >> low current, 'service splices' . . . not >> unlike the legacy knife splices. But for >> permanent extensions of wires up to an >> including the 10A class (18AWG) I'd >> recommend the Po'Boy's solder sleeve >> technique to extend the leads. >> >> http://tinyurl.com/dgg2nb >> >> Much more robust both mechanically and >> electrically . . . >> >> >> Bob . . . >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 27, 2016
Subject: Re: lengthening wires
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Ken, I tried Bob's Po'Boy's solder sleeve and found it very easy to do. My first one took just a couple of minutes, and that was with all the fooling around because it was my first time. I think I could do another in about 60 seconds. Give it a try with a piece of scrap wire. -- Art Z. On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 10:10 PM, Ken Ryan wrote: > Thanks for that Bob. I like it. You have now given me more food for > thought. I think the tiny screws and washers would be very frustrating to > work with. > > Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve. > On May 27, 2016 17:54, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" < > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > >> Should you choose to go to the fast-on route you can extend wires neatly >> using D-Sub pins & sockets.=C3=82 Use the machined/crimp D-Subs pine. C ut your >> wire, crimp a plug onto the wire.=C3=82 Crimp a socket onto your extens ion >> wire.=C3=82 Join and cover with shrink tube and you have a nice, neat, extended >> wire. >> >> >> The d-sub pins under shrink are fine for >> low current, 'service splices' . . . not >> unlike the legacy knife splices. But for >> permanent extensions of wires up to an >> including the 10A class (18AWG) I'd >> recommend the Po'Boy's solder sleeve >> technique to extend the leads. >> >> http://tinyurl.com/dgg2nb >> >> Much more robust both mechanically and >> electrically . . . >> >> >> Bob . . . >> > -- http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 27, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: lengthening wires
At 09:12 PM 5/27/2016, you wrote: >Question Bob ... for #20 wires would you choose the D-sub method or >the poor boy's splice? The d-subs under shrink were a more compact alternative to the knife spice as a field service disconnect . . . not so much as a permanent splice. Further, a mated pair of pins is MUCH more expensive than the faux solder sleeve and subject to disconnect if placed in too much tension. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
Subject: lengthening wires
Date: May 28, 2016
5/28/2016 Ken Ryan wrote: =9CI sure wish that I had just used fast ons to begin with.=9D Hello Ken, Here is another solution: Convert your ring terminals to a faston type male tab with an adapter. The adapter gets fastened (intended permanently) onto the switch using the screw and you then have a male faston available to connect to with a female faston crimped onto the end of the wire. The adapters come in both straight and 90 degree versions. Poke around a bit on the internet, I bet that you can find suitable adapters. Here is one result. https://www.google.com/search?q=ring+terminal+to+male+tab&rlz=1C1AFAB _en___US560&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=622&tbm=isch&imgil=l2SoyWV-j8TU FM%253A%253Brpzrfe0opjUP_M%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.pegasusautor acing.com%25252Fproductdetails.asp%25253FRecID%2525253D12915&source=iu& pf=m&fir=l2SoyWV-j8TUFM%253A%252Crpzrfe0opjUP_M%252C_&usg=__GQIeu93 gvLfh21C-3IbiB5J4zW8%3D&ved=0ahUKEwj21Z7c0_zMAhWE5oMKHXIkDAcQyjcINg&ei= Wn9JV_bAMoTNjwTyyLA4#imgrc=l2SoyWV-j8TUFM%3A OC From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: lengthening wires I am having second thoughts about the future nightmare I may have created by choosing screw terminal switches with their tiny screws and washers for my panel. I have already completed most of the wiring with ring terminal ends, and there is not enough slack to just cut them off and replace them with fast on terminals. I don't consider completely re-doing all the wiring to be a very attractive option. My options seem to be: 1. just stick with what I have, ring terminals, screw connections to switches 2. cut off the terminals, butt splice on enough wire to allow for re-doing the ends with fast on terminals 3. come up with some other way of extending the wires, leaving the ring terminals intact, replacing the butt splice with some other type of connection to extend the wires If I were to stick with what I have, the one good thing is that I will have better access to the back side of the panel than most have. But without doubt if I were doing it over I would use fast ons. So I'm trying to decide if it's worth it to introduce butt splices to all the wires for the convenience of fast on terminals? My instincts are telling me to just go with what I have, as many airplanes have flown with switches that use screw terminals. But I sure wish that I had just used fast ons to begin with. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: lengthening wires
Date: May 28, 2016
Be careful not to adopt the government's strategy here. "If it's not broken , fix it until it is". If it's working for you, keep letting it work for you until it breaks. Then f ix it. Justin > On May 27, 2016, at 14:02, Ken Ryan wrote: > > Thanks guys. So far it's unanimous, stick with what I've got. Next airplan e I will use fast ons. Live and learn. > >> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 1:45 PM, Robert Borger wrote: >> Ken, >> >> Personally, I=99d stick with the screw and ring since that=99 s how you are set up. They are a bit of a PITA to fiddly with but once in a nd with no strain on the wire they will be fine. >> >> Should you choose to go to the fast-on route you can extend wires neatly u sing D-Sub pins & sockets. Use the machined/crimp D-Subs (http://www.bandc. aero/d-subpin.aspx & http://www.bandc.aero/d-subsocket.aspx). Cut your wire , crimp a plug onto the wire. Crimp a socket onto your extension wire. Joi n and cover with shrink tube and you have a nice, neat, extended wire. >> >> I hope this helps. >> >> Blue skies & tailwinds, >> Bob Borger >> Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs). >> Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP >> 3705 Lynchburg Dr. >> Corinth, TX 76208-5331 >> Cel: 817-992-1117 >> rlborger(at)mac.com >> >> On May 27, 2016, at 3:46 PM, Ken Ryan wrote: >> >> I am having second thoughts about the future nightmare I may have created by choosing screw terminal switches with their tiny screws and washers for m y panel. >> >> I have already completed most of the wiring with ring terminal ends, and t here is not enough slack to just cut them off and replace them with fast on t erminals. >> >> I don't consider completely re-doing all the wiring to be a very attracti ve option. >> >> My options seem to be: >> >> 1. just stick with what I have, ring terminals, screw connections to swit ches >> >> 2. cut off the terminals, butt splice on enough wire to allow for re-doin g the ends with fast on terminals >> >> 3. come up with some other way of extending the wires, leaving the ring t erminals intact, replacing the butt splice with some other type of connectio n to extend the wires >> >> If I were to stick with what I have, the one good thing is that I will ha ve better access to the back side of the panel than most have. But without d oubt if I were doing it over I would use fast ons. So I'm trying to decide i f it's worth it to introduce butt splices to all the wires for the convenien ce of fast on terminals? >> >> My instincts are telling me to just go with what I have, as many airplane s have flown with switches that use screw terminals. But I sure wish that I h ad just used fast ons to begin with. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 28, 2016
Subject: Re: lengthening wires
From: William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Bob Borger, Cleaver idea... use the D sub pins without the connector housing to splice individual wires... cool idea. Bill Hunter On May 28, 2016 06:03, "Justin Jones" wrote: > Be careful not to adopt the government's strategy here. "If it's not > broken, fix it until it is". > > If it's working for you, keep letting it work for you until it breaks. > Then fix it. > > Justin > > > On May 27, 2016, at 14:02, Ken Ryan wrote: > > Thanks guys. So far it's unanimous, stick with what I've got. Next > airplane I will use fast ons. Live and learn. > > On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 1:45 PM, Robert Borger wrote: > >> Ken, >> >> Personally, I=99d stick with the screw and ring since that =99s how you are >> set up. They are a bit of a PITA to fiddly with but once in and with no >> strain on the wire they will be fine. >> >> Should you choose to go to the fast-on route you can extend wires neatly >> using D-Sub pins & sockets. Use the machined/crimp D-Subs ( >> http://www.bandc.aero/d-subpin.aspx & >> http://www.bandc.aero/d-subsocket.aspx). Cut your wire, crimp a plug >> onto the wire. Crimp a socket onto your extension wire. Join and cover >> with shrink tube and you have a nice, neat, extended wire. >> >> I hope this helps. >> >> Blue skies & tailwinds, >> Bob Borger >> Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs). >> Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP >> 3705 Lynchburg Dr. >> Corinth, TX 76208-5331 >> Cel: 817-992-1117 >> rlborger(at)mac.com >> >> On May 27, 2016, at 3:46 PM, Ken Ryan wrote: >> >> I am having second thoughts about the future nightmare I may have create d >> by choosing screw terminal switches with their tiny screws and washers f or >> my panel. >> >> I have already completed most of the wiring with ring terminal ends, and >> there is not enough slack to just cut them off and replace them with fas t >> on terminals. >> >> I don't consider completely re-doing all the wiring to be a very >> attractive option. >> >> My options seem to be: >> >> 1. just stick with what I have, ring terminals, screw connections to >> switches >> >> 2. cut off the terminals, butt splice on enough wire to allow for >> re-doing the ends with fast on terminals >> >> 3. come up with some other way of extending the wires, leaving the ring >> terminals intact, replacing the butt splice with some other type of >> connection to extend the wires >> >> If I were to stick with what I have, the one good thing is that I will >> have better access to the back side of the panel than most have. But >> without doubt if I were doing it over I would use fast ons. So I'm tryin g >> to decide if it's worth it to introduce butt splices to all the wires fo r >> the convenience of fast on terminals? >> >> My instincts are telling me to just go with what I have, as many >> airplanes have flown with switches that use screw terminals. But I sure >> wish that I had just used fast ons to begin with. >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ARGOLDMAN(at)aol.com
Date: May 28, 2016
Subject: Re: lengthening wires
If you are going to do this, use the non-flexible heatshrink tubing. What about just soldering the wires (20 ga and larger) Rich In a message dated 5/28/2016 8:35:56 A.M. Central Daylight Time, billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com writes: Bob Borger, Cleaver idea... use the D sub pins without the connector housing to splic e individual wires... cool idea. Bill Hunter On May 28, 2016 06:03, "Justin Jones" <_jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com_ (mailto:jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com) > wrote: Be careful not to adopt the government's strategy here. "If it's not broken, fix it until it is". If it's working for you, keep letting it work for you until it breaks. Then fix it. Justin On May 27, 2016, at 14:02, Ken Ryan <_keninalaska(at)gmail.com_ (mailto:keninalaska(at)gmail.com) > wrote: Thanks guys. So far it's unanimous, stick with what I've got. Next airplane I will use fast ons. Live and learn. On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 1:45 PM, Robert Borger <_rlborger(at)mac.com_ (mailto:rlborger(at)mac.com) > wrote: Ken, Personally, I=99d stick with the screw and ring since that=99s how you are set up. They are a bit of a PITA to fiddly with but once in and with no strain on the wire they will be fine. Should you choose to go to the fast-on route you can extend wires neatly using D-Sub pins & sockets. Use the machined/crimp D-Subs (http://www.bandc.aero/d-subpin.aspx & http://www.bandc.aero/d-subsocket.a spx). Cut your wire, crimp a plug onto the wire. Crimp a socket onto your extension wir e. Join and cover with shrink tube and you have a nice, neat, extended wire. I hope this helps. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs). Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: _817-992-1117_ (tel:817-992-1117) _rlborger(at)mac.com_ (mailto:rlborger(at)mac.com) On May 27, 2016, at 3:46 PM, Ken Ryan <_keninalaska(at)gmail.com_ (mailto:keninalaska(at)gmail.com) > wrote: I am having second thoughts about the future nightmare I may have created by choosing screw terminal switches with their tiny screws and washers fo r my panel. I have already completed most of the wiring with ring terminal ends, and there is not enough slack to just cut them off and replace them with fast on terminals. I don't consider completely re-doing all the wiring to be a very attractive option. My options seem to be: 1. just stick with what I have, ring terminals, screw connections to switches 2. cut off the terminals, butt splice on enough wire to allow for re-doin g the ends with fast on terminals 3. come up with some other way of extending the wires, leaving the ring terminals intact, replacing the butt splice with some other type of connection to extend the wires If I were to stick with what I have, the one good thing is that I will have better access to the back side of the panel than most have. But with out doubt if I were doing it over I would use fast ons. So I'm trying to deci de if it's worth it to introduce butt splices to all the wires for the convenience of fast on terminals? My instincts are telling me to just go with what I have, as many airplane s have flown with switches that use screw terminals. But I sure wish that I had just used fast ons to begin with. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: lengthening wires
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: May 28, 2016
Bill, Works great as long as the wire is well supported and there=99s no strain or tension. It=99s a very neat solution that doesn=99t make a big knot like an in-line crimp splice. Solder sleeves also work well but I find them a bit fussier to make a nice neat join. They are the way to go for unsupported wire or wire were there is significant tension on the wire. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs). Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On May 28, 2016, at 8:33 AM, William Hunter wrote: Bob Borger, Cleaver idea... use the D sub pins without the connector housing to splice individual wires... cool idea. Bill Hunter ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: lengthening wires
Date: May 28, 2016
5/28/2016 Hello Ken, Thanks for the quick response, but your comments puzzle me. Perhaps you don=99t understand the adapter that I propose and how it is used. You wrote: 1) =9C.... make my perceived problem worse by doubling the number of tiny screws and tiny washers located behind the panel.=9D a) The adapter that I propose is nothing more than a small (usually flat)** piece of metal with a hole in one end and a male faston type tab on the other. See here: https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/images/L/4169-003.JPG The hole end of the adapter is fastened to the terminal on the back of the switch using the same screw (and washer if desired) that would be used to fasten a wire=99s ring terminal to the switch. No extra screws or washers are involved. b) The fastening of the adapter to the terminal on the back of the switch (preferably before the switch is installed in the panel) by means of the screw is intended to be a one time event, never to be loosened or removed from that time on. From that time on any connection, or disconnection, of a wire to the switch terminal is made by pushing on, or pulling off, ## a female faston type connector which has been crimped onto the end of a wire. 2) =9CI have already completed most of the wiring with ring terminal ends, and there is not enough slack to just cut them off and replace them with fast on terminals.=9D Realize that installing an available manufactured adapter actually extends the length of the terminal on the back of the switch a small distance. Maybe enough to cut the ring terminal off the end of the wire and replace it with a female faston type connector? If there is not enough length gained with an available manufactured adapter (or the holes in the manufactured adapters are not of the right size) to go the above route, then you can make your own faston type male adapters by buying suitably dimensioned hobby shop metal strips similar to this: http://www.micromark.com/solid-brass-strip-064-inch-thick-x-1and4-inch-wi de-x-12-inches-long-pkg-of-8,7025.html and make your own long-enough male faston adapters. Does this help? Any questions? OC **PS: Adapters that are bent 90 degrees in the middle can be used if that change of direction is more suitable for the eventual connection of the female faston type connector that has been crimped onto the end of a wire. ##PS: Sometimes the grip of a female faston type connector is so firmly gripped onto the male tab that it is very difficult to just pull the female connector off by hand. In that case one has to resort to a tool such as a screw driver to assist in prying the female connector free. ==================== From: Ken Ryan Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2016 11:43 AM Subject: Re: lengthening wires Thanks Owen, I didn't know such adapters exist, but using them would actually make my perceived problem worse by doubling the number of tiny screws and tiny washers located behind the panel. Interesting information nevertheless. ======= On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 3:39 AM, Owen Baker wrote: 5/28/2016 Ken Ryan wrote: =9CI sure wish that I had just used fast ons to begin with.=9D Hello Ken, Here is another solution: Convert your ring terminals to a faston type male tab with an adapter. The adapter gets fastened (intended permanently) onto the switch using the screw and you then have a male faston available to connect to with a female faston crimped onto the end of the wire. The adapters come in both straight and 90 degree versions. Poke around a bit on the internet, I bet that you can find suitable adapters. Here is one result. https://www.google.com/search?q=ring+terminal+to+male+tab&rlz=1C1AFAB _en___US560&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=622&tbm=isch&imgil=l2SoyWV-j8TU FM%253A%253Brpzrfe0opjUP_M%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.pegasusautor acing.com%25252Fproductdetails.asp%25253FRecID%2525253D12915&source=iu& pf=m&fir=l2SoyWV-j8TUFM%253A%252Crpzrfe0opjUP_M%252C_&usg=__GQIeu93 gvLfh21C-3IbiB5J4zW8%3D&ved=0ahUKEwj21Z7c0_zMAhWE5oMKHXIkDAcQyjcINg&ei= Wn9JV_bAMoTNjwTyyLA4#imgrc=l2SoyWV-j8TUFM%3A OC From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: lengthening wires I am having second thoughts about the future nightmare I may have created by choosing screw terminal switches with their tiny screws and washers for my panel. I have already completed most of the wiring with ring terminal ends, and there is not enough slack to just cut them off and replace them with fast on terminals. I don't consider completely re-doing all the wiring to be a very attractive option. My options seem to be: 1. just stick with what I have, ring terminals, screw connections to switches 2. cut off the terminals, butt splice on enough wire to allow for re-doing the ends with fast on terminals 3. come up with some other way of extending the wires, leaving the ring terminals intact, replacing the butt splice with some other type of connection to extend the wires If I were to stick with what I have, the one good thing is that I will have better access to the back side of the panel than most have. But without doubt if I were doing it over I would use fast ons. So I'm trying to decide if it's worth it to introduce butt splices to all the wires for the convenience of fast on terminals? My instincts are telling me to just go with what I have, as many airplanes have flown with switches that use screw terminals. But I sure wish that I had just used fast ons to begin with. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: lengthening wires
Date: May 28, 2016
5/28/2016 Hello Ken, Thanks for the response. You wrote: =9CThen, in addition, there would be an equal number of screws and washers used to attach the other fast on adapter to the ring terminal on the wire.=9D** Nope. Please note carefully the distinction between the use of the word adapter (for the male end of this connection) and the use of the word connector (for the female end of this connection) in my writing. Quoting from paragraph 2 b of my May 28, 2016 at 1:32 PM email (which is copied below): =9CFrom that time on any connection, or disconnection, of a wire to the switch terminal is made by pushing on, or pulling off, ## a female faston type connector which has been crimped onto the end of a wire.=9D The existing ring terminal on the wire is cut off. The wire is stripped and a female faston type connector (not any kind of adapter) is crimped onto the wire. Then, in order to connect a wire to the switch, that female faston type connector is pushed onto the male faston adapter that you have fastened onto the switch terminal using the originally provided single screw (and washer if desired). Here is a typical female faston type connector that gets crimped onto the end of the wire: http://www.steinair.com/product/18-22-ga-red-faston-14/ Here is a male faston type adapter that gets fastened onto the switch terminal with a single screw (and washer if desired): https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/images/L/4169-003.JPG Note that there are many different manufacturers of faston (push together) type fasteners, many different sizes of those type fasteners, and many different names used for those type fasteners. You should ensure that: a) the tab on the male adapter and the push on portion of the female connector are size compatible; b) the hole in the male adapter is suitable for the screw size on the switch terminal; and c) the crimp side of the female connector is suitable for the wire size that you are using. If wire length is still a problem in your mind please read item 2 in my May 28, 2016 at 1:32 PM email (copied below). Any questions? OC **PS: I suppose that there may exist such a female faston type type adapter that could be used in the fashion that you describe, but I have not gone looking for any and I don=99t suggest that any should be used to solve your problem. ======================= From: Ken Ryan Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2016 5:59 PM Subject: Re: lengthening wires Thanks Owen, I do believe that I understand what you are saying, but don't you see that it would result in twice as many screws and washers? I say this because the original number of screws and washers (those that would have been used to connect the ring terminal to the switch) would be used to connect the fast on adapter to the switch. Then, in addition, there would be an equal number of screws and washers used to attach the other fast on adapter to the ring terminal on the wire. So if I understood you correctly the first time, that would be twice as many screws and washers. =93 Ken ============ On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 1:32 PM, Owen Baker wrote: 5/28/2016 Hello Ken, Thanks for the quick response, but your comments puzzle me. Perhaps you don=99t understand the adapter that I propose and how it is used. You wrote: 1) =9C.... make my perceived problem worse by doubling the number of tiny screws and tiny washers located behind the panel.=9D a) The adapter that I propose is nothing more than a small (usually flat)** piece of metal with a hole in one end and a male faston type tab on the other. See here: https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/images/L/4169-003.JPG The hole end of the adapter is fastened to the terminal on the back of the switch using the same screw (and washer if desired) that would be used to fasten a wire=99s ring terminal to the switch. No extra screws or washers are involved. b) The fastening of the adapter to the terminal on the back of the switch (preferably before the switch is installed in the panel) by means of the screw is intended to be a one time event, never to be loosened or removed from that time on. From that time on any connection, or disconnection, of a wire to the switch terminal is made by pushing on, or pulling off, ## a female faston type connector which has been crimped onto the end of a wire. 2) =9CI have already completed most of the wiring with ring terminal ends, and there is not enough slack to just cut them off and replace them with fast on terminals.=9D Realize that installing an available manufactured adapter actually extends the length of the terminal on the back of the switch a small distance. Maybe enough to cut the ring terminal off the end of the wire and replace it with a female faston type connector? If there is not enough length gained with an available manufactured adapter (or the holes in the manufactured adapters are not of the right size) to go the above route, then you can make your own faston type male adapters by buying suitably dimensioned hobby shop metal strips similar to this: http://www.micromark.com/solid-brass-strip-064-inch-thick-x-1and4-inch-wi de-x-12-inches-long-pkg-of-8,7025.html and make your own long-enough male faston adapters. Does this help? Any questions? OC **PS: Adapters that are bent 90 degrees in the middle can be used if that change of direction is more suitable for the eventual connection of the female faston type connector that has been crimped onto the end of a wire. ##PS: Sometimes the grip of a female faston type connector is so firmly gripped onto the male tab that it is very difficult to just pull the female connector off by hand. In that case one has to resort to a tool such as a screw driver to assist in prying the female connector free. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 31, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Some low-cost EMC tools . . .
I've got a customer who is developing some products bound for airplanes . . . and like all inquisitive designers, he would like to know what kinds of gremlins might be lurking in his hardware BEFORE he goes to the $150/hr EMC lab. There's a line of software defined receivers or (SDRs for short) capable of exceedingly broad frequency coverage. These are teamed with software that offers an equally broad range of receiving/ decoding capabilities. If you, or perhaps any kids you know, are interested in radio listening from 100Khz to 2.5 Ghz, check out the products available off eBay and software packages for low cost or even free. Here's one of many videos on youtube that demonstrates the capability of just one such paring https://youtu.be/IaKEYEyrRgk My primary interest right now is to help the fellow get set up to 'sniff' emissions from his product. But I suspect I'll learn more about the broader possibilities for us . . . not the least of which would be identifying and qualifying noises on our airplanes. More to follow . . . someday . . . There's software that decodes ADSB and plots the data onto a map. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Some low-cost EMC tools . . .
From: John Tipton <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com>
Date: Jun 01, 2016
Hi Bob I'm not sure what you have written here, but the last sentence certainly rang a bell, and wondered if this is what you are talking about http://www.pilotaware.com Regards John Sent from my iPad ----x--O--x---- > On 1 Jun 2016, at 04:03 am, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > > I've got a customer who is developing some products > bound for airplanes . . . and like all inquisitive > designers, he would like to know what kinds of > gremlins might be lurking in his hardware BEFORE > he goes to the $150/hr EMC lab. > > There's a line of software defined receivers or > (SDRs for short) capable of exceedingly broad > frequency coverage. These are teamed with software > that offers an equally broad range of receiving/ > decoding capabilities. > > If you, or perhaps any kids you know, are interested > in radio listening from 100Khz to 2.5 Ghz, check > out the products available off eBay and software > packages for low cost or even free. Here's > one of many videos on youtube that demonstrates > the capability of just one such paring > > https://youtu.be/IaKEYEyrRgk > > My primary interest right now is to help the fellow > get set up to 'sniff' emissions from his product. > But I suspect I'll learn more about the broader > possibilities for us . . . not the least of which > would be identifying and qualifying noises on > our airplanes. > > More to follow . . . someday . . . > > There's software that decodes ADSB and plots > the data onto a map. > > > > > Bob . . . > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Some low-cost EMC tools . . .
From: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net>
Date: Jun 01, 2016
So it is using appart from ADSB and XPDR a proprietary protocol named P3I for apparently some radio GPS transmission between planes. Its a pity why he is not using a well defined standard since years (Flarm); but might be license costs. So we just introduce yet another traffic detection mode. Cheers Werner On 01.06.2016 08:05, John Tipton wrote: > > Hi Bob > > I'm not sure what you have written here, but the last sentence certainly rang a bell, and wondered if this is what you are talking about > > http://www.pilotaware.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Some low-cost EMC tools . . .
From: John Tipton <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com>
Date: Jun 01, 2016
Sore point: 'FLARM' is not available to non-Flarm registered users John Sent from my iPad ----x--O--x---- > On 1 Jun 2016, at 09:55 am, Werner Schneider wrote: > > > So it is using appart from ADSB and XPDR a proprietary protocol named P3I for apparently some radio GPS transmission between planes. > > Its a pity why he is not using a well defined standard since years (Flarm); but might be license costs. So we just introduce yet another traffic detection mode. > > Cheers Werner > >> On 01.06.2016 08:05, John Tipton wrote: >> >> Hi Bob >> >> I'm not sure what you have written here, but the last sentence certainly rang a bell, and wondered if this is what you are talking about >> >> http://www.pilotaware.com > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 05/31/16
From: wrayt <wrayt(at)sympatico.ca>
Date: Jun 01, 2016
I missed the Bob suggestion. I'll give him a call. AeroElectric-List Digest Server wrote: > * > > ================================================= > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================= > > Today's complete AeroElectric-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the AeroElectric-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 16-05-31&Archive=AeroElectric > > Text Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 16-05-31&Archive=AeroElectric > > > =============================================== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > =============================================== > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > AeroElectric-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Tue 05/31/16: 1 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 07:53 PM - Some low-cost EMC tools . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) > > > > ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ > > > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Some low-cost EMC tools . . . > > > I've got a customer who is developing some products > bound for airplanes . . . and like all inquisitive > designers, he would like to know what kinds of > gremlins might be lurking in his hardware BEFORE > he goes to the $150/hr EMC lab. > > There's a line of software defined receivers or > (SDRs for short) capable of exceedingly broad > frequency coverage. These are teamed with software > that offers an equally broad range of receiving/ > decoding capabilities. > > If you, or perhaps any kids you know, are interested > in radio listening from 100Khz to 2.5 Ghz, check > out the products available off eBay and software > packages for low cost or even free. Here's > one of many videos on youtube that demonstrates > the capability of just one such paring > > https://youtu.be/IaKEYEyrRgk > > My primary interest right now is to help the fellow > get set up to 'sniff' emissions from his product. > But I suspect I'll learn more about the broader > possibilities for us . . . not the least of which > would be identifying and qualifying noises on > our airplanes. > > More to follow . . . someday . . . > > There's software that decodes ADSB and plots > the data onto a map. > > > Bob . . . > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 01, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Some low-cost EMC tools . . .
At 01:05 AM 6/1/2016, you wrote: > > >Hi Bob > >I'm not sure what you have written here, but the last sentence >certainly rang a bell, and wondered if this is what you are talking about > >http://www.pilotaware.com The only connection I've made with respect to ADSB intercepts is what was demonstrated on the linked video. Most certainly, this capability is deeply dependent on some detailed knowledge of ADSB along with the talents to write software. No doubt, there are software packages with amazing capability . . . for a price. At the same time, there exists a boatload of open source packages that are free. For the moment, my interest is focused on using the SDR as a noise-source identification and qualification tool. I'll leave it up to you guys to explore broader interests to our brothers on the List . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Some low-cost EMC tools . . .
From: Bill Maxwell <wrmaxwell(at)bigpond.com>
Date: Jun 02, 2016
For anybody interested in the PilotAware application and hardware, and it is very noteworthy in that it not only receives and displays ADSB traffic on your navigation application but also generates its own signal for display if your aircraft is not ADSB equipped, the local radio transceiver used is only good for Europe. It uses a frequency of 868 MHz, or thereabouts from memory, which is not available in the US, Canada, Australia or much of the rest of the world. Hopefully the team will develop a hardware version which can be used at say 921 MHz so that we can all benefit from it. Bill On 2/06/2016 6:01 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 01:05 AM 6/1/2016, you wrote: >> >> >> Hi Bob >> >> I'm not sure what you have written here, but the last sentence >> certainly rang a bell, and wondered if this is what you are talking about >> >> http://www.pilotaware.com > > The only connection I've made with respect to > ADSB intercepts is what was demonstrated on > the linked video. > > Most certainly, this capability is deeply dependent > on some detailed knowledge of ADSB along with the > talents to write software. No doubt, there are > software packages with amazing capability . . . > for a price. > > At the same time, there exists a boatload of open > source packages that are free. > > For the moment, my interest is focused on using > the SDR as a noise-source identification and > qualification tool. I'll leave it up to you guys > to explore broader interests to our brothers > on the List . . . > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 01, 2016
From: Joe <joseparc(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Some low-cost EMC tools . . .
Instead of waiting on an incompatible European ADS-B box. Check out this one: https://www.openflightsolutions.com/flightbox/ Have a friend who just installed one in his C182 and is really pleased with how well it works. Joe Parchesky -----Original Message----- From: Bill Maxwell <wrmaxwell(at)bigpond.com> Sent: Wed, Jun 1, 2016 7:54 pm Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Some low-cost EMC tools . . . For anybody interested in the PilotAware application and hardware, and it is very noteworthy in that it not only receives and displays ADSB traffic on your navigation application but also generates its own signal for display if your aircraft is not ADSB equipped, the local radio transceiver used is only good for Europe. It uses a frequency of 868 MHz, or thereabouts from memory, which is not available in the US, Canada, Australia or much of the rest of the world. Hopefully the team will develop a hardware version which can be used at say 921 MHz so that we can all benefit from it. Bill On 2/06/2016 6:01 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: At 01:05 AM 6/1/2016, you wrote: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Tipton Hi Bob I'm not sure what you have written here, but the last sentence certainly rang a bell, and wondered if this is what you are talking about http://www.pilotaware.com The only connection I've made with respect to ADSB intercepts is what was demonstrated on the linked video. Most certainly, this capability is deeply dependent on some detailed knowledge of ADSB along with the talents to write software. No doubt, there are software packages with amazing capability . . . for a price. At the same time, there exists a boatload of open source packages that are free. For the moment, my interest is focused on using the SDR as a noise-source identification and qualification tool. I'll leave it up to you guys to explore broader interests to our brothers on the List . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Some low-cost EMC tools . . .
From: Bill Maxwell <wrmaxwell(at)bigpond.com>
Date: Jun 02, 2016
No need to wait if ADS-B is all you want, Joe. PilotAware does that just fine now. You don't need its European transceiver to receive and display ADS-B. What the additional radio transceiver does is generate a signal containing the required positional information for an aircraft that is not ADS-B equipped. When received by another PAW equipped aircraft, PAW then displays that aircraft along with any ADS-B targets received. It is therefore really an advance on the flightbox offering, at least in Europe. It uses a licence free ISM frequency allocation to transmit and receive the non-ADS-B data and therein lies the difficulty for use outside Europe. The ISM allocation used in Europe is smack in the middle of a GSM band, and heavily used, here in Australia, for example. Bill On 2/06/2016 11:22 AM, Joe wrote: > Instead of waiting on an incompatible European ADS-B box. Check out > this one: https://www.openflightsolutions.com/flightbox/ > > Have a friend who just installed one in his C182 and is really pleased > with how well it works. > > Joe Parchesky > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Maxwell <wrmaxwell(at)bigpond.com> > To: aeroelectric-list > Sent: Wed, Jun 1, 2016 7:54 pm > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Some low-cost EMC tools . . . > > For anybody interested in the PilotAware application and hardware, and > it is very noteworthy in that it not only receives and displays ADSB > traffic on your navigation application but also generates its own > signal for display if your aircraft is not ADSB equipped, the local > radio transceiver used is only good for Europe. It uses a frequency of > 868 MHz, or thereabouts from memory, which is not available in the US, > Canada, Australia or much of the rest of the world. Hopefully the team > will develop a hardware version which can be used at say 921 MHz so > that we can all benefit from it. > Bill > > On 2/06/2016 6:01 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 01:05 AM 6/1/2016, you wrote: > > > > Hi Bob > > I'm not sure what you have written here, but the last sentence > certainly rang a bell, and wondered if this is what you are > talking about > > http://www.pilotaware.com > > > The only connection I've made with respect to > ADSB intercepts is what was demonstrated on > the linked video. > > Most certainly, this capability is deeply dependent > on some detailed knowledge of ADSB along with the > talents to write software. No doubt, there are > software packages with amazing capability . . . > for a price. > > At the same time, there exists a boatload of open > source packages that are free. > > For the moment, my interest is focused on using > the SDR as a noise-source identification and > qualification tool. I'll leave it up to you guys > to explore broader interests to our brothers > on the List . . . > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com>
Subject: Saggy bus voltage on Cessna 182
Date: Jun 02, 2016
Hello all, I wonder if I could get some ideas on fixing an electrical issue with my 1975 Cessna 182. The issue is that the bus voltage sags under load. With the engine running and no electrical load the voltage is approximately 13.8V, dropping to 13.2V with daytime load (beacon, avionics, engine monitor, electrical TC, autopilot) and with night time lighting (add strobes, position lights, LED landing and taxi lights, instrument lights) it drops to 12.8V. During flight the battery isn't fully charging and the engine start for the next flight I would describe as "reluctant". If I top off the battery from a line voltage charger for a few hours the next engine start is "enthusiastic". I have had the alternator serviced, and I have replaced the regulator. I have put a 'scope on the bus with the engine running and I see steady dc with about 50mV pp of ripple. I have a photograph of the scope trace, not sure how best to make it visible to list readers, but the ripple looks like a rectified AC waveform with no gaps (gaps I think would indicate a failed diode). Can anyone suggest where I could look next? Thanks for any suggestions Alec ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Some low-cost EMC tools . . .)
From: Rick Beebe <rick(at)beebe.org>
Date: Jun 02, 2016
The Open Flight Solutions system is a commercialized version of the Stratux project at http://stratux.me. I've built several of those for myself and friends. That said, for my own system I replaced the crappy 3D printed enclosure I had been using for the one from Open Flight Solutions and it is a seriously nice box. And for about $50 more than sourcing all the parts yourself you can get a complete kit from him which is what I'm now recommending to my friends. At it's core, Stratux is a Raspberry Pi with one or two SDRs running software written by Chris Young to decode the ADS-B transmission and to send the results over wifi to a tablet or smart phone. --Rick On 6/1/2016 9:22 PM, Joe wrote: > Instead of waiting on an incompatible European ADS-B box. Check out > this one: https://www.openflightsolutions.com/flightbox/ > > Have a friend who just installed one in his C182 and is really pleased > with how well it works. > > Joe Parchesky > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Maxwell <wrmaxwell(at)bigpond.com> > To: aeroelectric-list > Sent: Wed, Jun 1, 2016 7:54 pm > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Some low-cost EMC tools . . . > > For anybody interested in the PilotAware application and hardware, and > it is very noteworthy in that it not only receives and displays ADSB > traffic on your navigation application but also generates its own signal > for display if your aircraft is not ADSB equipped, the local radio > transceiver used is only good for Europe. It uses a frequency of 868 > MHz, or thereabouts from memory, which is not available in the US, > Canada, Australia or much of the rest of the world. Hopefully the team > will develop a hardware version which can be used at say 921 MHz so that > we can all benefit from it. > Bill > > On 2/06/2016 6:01 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 01:05 AM 6/1/2016, you wrote: > > > > Hi Bob > > I'm not sure what you have written here, but the last sentence > certainly rang a bell, and wondered if this is what you are > talking about > > http://www.pilotaware.com > > > The only connection I've made with respect to > ADSB intercepts is what was demonstrated on > the linked video. > > Most certainly, this capability is deeply dependent > on some detailed knowledge of ADSB along with the > talents to write software. No doubt, there are > software packages with amazing capability . . . > for a price. > > At the same time, there exists a boatload of open > source packages that are free. > > For the moment, my interest is focused on using > the SDR as a noise-source identification and > qualification tool. I'll leave it up to you guys > to explore broader interests to our brothers > on the List . . . > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 02, 2016
Subject: Re: Saggy bus voltage on Cessna 182
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 8:08 AM, Alec Myers wrote: > > > Hello all, > > I wonder if I could get some ideas on fixing an electrical issue with my > 1975 Cessna 182. > > The issue is that the bus voltage sags under load. With the engine running > and no electrical load the voltage is approximately 13.8V, dropping to > 13.2V with daytime load (beacon, avionics, engine monitor, electrical TC, > autopilot) and with night time lighting (add strobes, position lights, LED > landing and taxi lights, instrument lights) it drops to 12.8V. > > During flight the battery isn't fully charging and the engine start for > the next flight I would describe as "reluctant". If I top off the battery > from a line voltage charger for a few hours the next engine start is > "enthusiastic". > > I have had the alternator serviced, and I have replaced the regulator. I > have put a 'scope on the bus with the engine running and I see steady dc > with about 50mV pp of ripple. I have a photograph of the scope trace, not > sure how best to make it visible to list readers, but the ripple looks like > a rectified AC waveform with no gaps (gaps I think would indicate a failed > diode). > > Can anyone suggest where I could look next? > > Thanks for any suggestions > > Alec > > Can you get voltmeter probes *directly on* the alternator B lead post & case? Not on the bolts, clamps etc, but directly on the post. Measure voltage there with the engine running & loads off, then on. Sounds like the alternator is supplying ~the right voltage (possibly just a bit low). But if you have high resistance connections anywhere between the alternator and the loads (on the B+ side *or* the ground side paths), the loads may not be seeing the full alternator voltage. If you have an issue with high resistance connections, the voltage from alternator B terminal to case will still be at 13.8 but your bus (and battery) voltage will be lower, due to voltage drops in the high resistance connections. Secondary possibility would be the same issue, but in the field circuit from regulator to field terminal on the alt. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Saggy bus voltage on Cessna 182
From: Craig Reding <clr(at)redingaviation.com>
Date: Jun 02, 2016
Im not an expert but I would look for corrosion around grounds. Make sure all of your grounds are good. Craig > On Jun 2, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Alec Myers wrote: > > > > Hello all, > > I wonder if I could get some ideas on fixing an electrical issue with my 1975 Cessna 182. > > The issue is that the bus voltage sags under load. With the engine running and no electrical load the voltage is approximately 13.8V, dropping to 13.2V with daytime load (beacon, avionics, engine monitor, electrical TC, autopilot) and with night time lighting (add strobes, position lights, LED landing and taxi lights, instrument lights) it drops to 12.8V. > > During flight the battery isn't fully charging and the engine start for the next flight I would describe as "reluctant". If I top off the battery from a line voltage charger for a few hours the next engine start is "enthusiastic". > > I have had the alternator serviced, and I have replaced the regulator. I have put a 'scope on the bus with the engine running and I see steady dc with about 50mV pp of ripple. I have a photograph of the scope trace, not sure how best to make it visible to list readers, but the ripple looks like a rectified AC waveform with no gaps (gaps I think would indicate a failed diode). > > Can anyone suggest where I could look next? > > Thanks for any suggestions > > Alec > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 02, 2016
Subject: Re: Saggy bus voltage on Cessna 182
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
I hate it when that happens. It's bad enough when old pilots sag but we should be able to depend on our airplanes staying __. =F0=9F=98=8B -- Art Z. Sent from my phone so please excuse typos and brevity. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Saggy bus voltage on Cessna 182
From: Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net>
Date: Jun 02, 2016
To add to what Charlie said, It sounds like a battery load-test is in order. A place like Batteries Plus can do one for you. Also Skytec has a good explanation of how to check for a high resistance that results in voltage drop. http://www.skytecair.com/troubleshooting.htm -Kent > On Jun 2, 2016, at 11:37 AM, Charlie England wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 8:08 AM, Alec Myers wrote: > > > Hello all, > > I wonder if I could get some ideas on fixing an electrical issue with my 1975 Cessna 182. > > The issue is that the bus voltage sags under load. With the engine running and no electrical load the voltage is approximately 13.8V, dropping to 13.2V with daytime load (beacon, avionics, engine monitor, electrical TC, autopilot) and with night time lighting (add strobes, position lights, LED landing and taxi lights, instrument lights) it drops to 12.8V. > > During flight the battery isn't fully charging and the engine start for the next flight I would describe as "reluctant". If I top off the battery from a line voltage charger for a few hours the next engine start is "enthusiastic". > > I have had the alternator serviced, and I have replaced the regulator. I have put a 'scope on the bus with the engine running and I see steady dc with about 50mV pp of ripple. I have a photograph of the scope trace, not sure how best to make it visible to list readers, but the ripple looks like a rectified AC waveform with no gaps (gaps I think would indicate a failed diode). > > Can anyone suggest where I could look next? > > Thanks for any suggestions > > Alec > > Can you get voltmeter probes *directly on* the alternator B lead post & case? Not on the bolts, clamps etc, but directly on the post. Measure voltage there with the engine running & loads off, then on. > > Sounds like the alternator is supplying ~the right voltage (possibly just a bit low). But if you have high resistance connections anywhere between the alternator and the loads (on the B+ side *or* the ground side paths), the loads may not be seeing the full alternator voltage. If you have an issue with high resistance connections, the voltage from alternator B terminal to case will still be at 13.8 but your bus (and battery) voltage will be lower, due to voltage drops in the high resistance connections. > > Secondary possibility would be the same issue, but in the field circuit from regulator to field terminal on the alt. > > Charlie > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Saggy bus voltage on Cessna 182
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 02, 2016
If the regulator has I A S F terminals, measure the voltage between terminal S and the regulator case with the engine running. If 14 to 14.5 volts, the regulator and alternator are working OK. With engine running and all electrical loads turned on, measure the voltage between the positive battery terminal and the alternator "B" terminal. The voltage drop should be less than a few tenths of a volt. If more, then check all connections between alternator B terminal and battery positive. Also check all ground connections, especially regulator ground, engine ground strap and battery ground. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456782#456782 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 02, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Saggy bus voltage on Cessna 182
At 10:37 AM 6/2/2016, you wrote: >On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 8:08 AM, Alec Myers ><alec(at)alecmyers.com> wrote: ><alec(at)alecmyers.com> > > >Hello all, > >I wonder if I could get some ideas on fixing an electrical issue >with my 1975 Cessna 182. > >The issue is that the bus voltage sags under load. With the engine >running and no electrical load the voltage is approximately 13.8V, >dropping to 13.2V with daytime load (beacon, avionics, engine >monitor, electrical TC, autopilot) and with night time lighting (add >strobes, position lights, LED landing and taxi lights, instrument >lights) it drops to 12.8V The factory spec set point for those regulators is 14.2 +/- 0.2 volts . . . After engine start and before turning on any additional loads, the BUS voltage should be within those limits. >. > >During flight the battery isn't fully charging and the engine start >for the next flight I would describe as "reluctant". If I top off >the battery from a line voltage charger for a few hours the next >engine start is "enthusiastic". This observation rules out soggy battery. Given the voltages you've reported, battery performance sans external supports is understandable. A battery will not accept significant energy at bus voltages below 13.8 . . . and even at 13.8 it would take HOURS to top it off. This is why the slightly excessive set-point is the legacy value of 14.2 was selected for flooded lead-acid batteries . . . 'slight' overcharge that quickly tops off battery without serious 'damage'. The sealed vented lead-acid (SLVA) likes to be charged more aggressively . . . excerpts from the Hawker data says: Emacs! This fact drives the B&C policy decision to factory set their regulators to 14.6 volts. >I have had the alternator serviced, and I have replaced the >regulator. I have put a 'scope on the bus with the engine running >and I see steady dc with about 50mV pp of ripple. I have a >photograph of the scope trace, not sure how best to make it visible >to list readers, but the ripple looks like a rectified AC waveform >with no gaps (gaps I think would indicate a failed diode). > >Can anyone suggest where I could look next? Yes . . . and it is simple . . . just not easy. You need to get a voltmeter reading at the "S" and "F" terminals of your regulator with the engine running. "VS" should be the 14.2 +/- 0.2 volt value (or what ever is presently presented on the regulator's name-plate) and "VF" should be substantially larger than zero but NOT pegged against the bus . . . if it is pegged, then increase RPM to see if the voltage comes off the peg. I have had the alternator serviced, and I have replaced the regulator. I have put a 'scope on the bus with the engine running and I see steady dc with about 50mV pp of ripple. I have a photograph of the scope trace, not sure how best to make it visible to list readers, but the ripple looks like a rectified AC waveform with no gaps (gaps I think would indicate a failed diode). This reading is WAAaayyy low. It should be on the order of 1.5 volts pk-pk. 3 phase rectified DC is predicted to have an RMS ripple voltage on the order of 4% of the DC output. Hence 14 X 0.04 = 560 mVrms and approx 3x that pk-pk. If the bus voltage is that 'clean' then I think you're going to find that the field voltage is essentially zero. Depending on what you fine for "VS", there's probably a wiring disconnect somewhere along the path from Bus through the alternator switch to the OV sensor, out to the regulator and on to the alternator "F" terminal. Having the voltage measurements I suggested will 'divide' the enemy in the battle toward submission. Finally, once the stock regulator is working, you may want to consider a more modern ADJUSTABLE device that can be set to accommodate the special needs of SVLA batteries. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Some low-cost EMC tools . . .
From: "merlewagner2" <wagnermerle(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 02, 2016
Bob, Checkout rfexplorer.com. They have a neat setup for RF analysis using the RF Explorer. If I wasn't building a spectrum analyzer then this would be my next purchase. Merle Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456787#456787 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 02, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Some low-cost EMC tools . . .
At 03:41 PM 6/2/2016, you wrote: > > >Bob, > >Checkout rfexplorer.com. They have a neat setup for RF analysis >using the RF Explorer. Yes, I've seen those. There are numerous hardware configurations on eBay . . . and a variety of open source software support programs as well. These are simply a more 'self contained' version of the SDR modules. They certainly have an advantage of offering hand-held utility. I will probably have one of broad-band versions at some time in the future. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 03, 2016
Subject: Transponder antenna distance
Just when I think I have thought of everything in my G3X installation something else comes up. I have a GTX23ES transponder that is a a remote mount. I decided to mount it in the tail section where the rear battery mount is. It worked well there because of weight and balance and I figured my cable run to the Antenna would be short and out of the way of everything else. I missed a requirement in the Garmin Manual that says the Antenna should be 3 feet from the unit. I plande to out eh antenna just behind unit on the belly. I will also have a ADSB antenna on the rear belly and know that it needs to be 3' from the T-ponder antenna according to gamin. Am I correct in assuming that the same RF problem will exist with the ADSB being to close to the transponder unit itself ? I have found at least one Installer that has the transponder unit within a foot of the antenna and has had no problems. Trying to keep all the antennas separated on the RV8 is not easy. Any thoughts on this are appreciated. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tcwtech <rnewman(at)tcwtech.com>
Subject: Re: Transponder antenna distance
Date: Jun 03, 2016
I have my navworx ads-b box about 12" from the antenna in my rv-10 located in the tail cone. No issues, works well for 4 years now. A full metal enclosure transceiver, properly terminated RG-400 cable, mounted inside an aluminum tailcone is just about as good as it gets. Bob Newman TCW Technologies, LLC > On Jun 3, 2016, at 8:02 AM, Michael Lazarowicz wrote: > > Just when I think I have thought of everything in my G3X installation something else comes up. I have a GTX23ES transponder that is a a remote mount. I decided to mount it in the tail section where the rear battery mount is. It worked well there because of weight and balance and I figured my cable run to the Antenna would be short and out of the way of everything else. I missed a requirement in the Garmin Manual that says the Antenna should be 3 feet from the unit. I plande to out eh antenna just behind unit on the belly. I will also have a ADSB antenna on the rear belly and know that it needs to be 3' from the T-ponder antenna according to gamin. > > Am I correct in assuming that the same RF problem will exist with the ADSB being to close to the transponder unit itself ? > I have found at least one Installer that has the transponder unit within a foot of the antenna and has had no problems. > > Trying to keep all the antennas separated on the RV8 is not easy. > > > Any thoughts on this are appreciated. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com>
Subject: Transponder antenna distance
Date: Jun 03, 2016
I wonder if that is a cable length requirement or a physical distance requirement. In my past reading I remember minimum cable length requirements for GPS antennas. Just an opinion, I really do not know anything. Maybe Stein knows? Rene' 801-721-6080 From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Lazarowicz Sent: Friday, June 03, 2016 6:03 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Transponder antenna distance Just when I think I have thought of everything in my G3X installation something else comes up. I have a GTX23ES transponder that is a a remote mount. I decided to mount it in the tail section where the rear battery mount is. It worked well there because of weight and balance and I figured my cable run to the Antenna would be short and out of the way of everything else. I missed a requirement in the Garmin Manual that says the Antenna should be 3 feet from the unit. I plande to out eh antenna just behind unit on the belly. I will also have a ADSB antenna on the rear belly and know that it needs to be 3' from the T-ponder antenna according to gamin. Am I correct in assuming that the same RF problem will exist with the ADSB being to close to the transponder unit itself ? I have found at least one Installer that has the transponder unit within a foot of the antenna and has had no problems. Trying to keep all the antennas separated on the RV8 is not easy. Any thoughts on this are appreciated. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Transponder antenna distance
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 03, 2016
It's worth asking Garmin, but I'd bet what they really mean is 3' of coax minimum; easy to do with a 'U' shaped run. I'd hope that boxes intended to emit and/or receive RF energy would contain and isolate it to the center of the coax connector. Otherwise, you'd have issues with a lot of other 'stuff' in the plane. Charlie On 6/3/2016 8:07 AM, Tcwtech wrote: > > I have my navworx ads-b box about 12" from the antenna in my rv-10 located in the tail cone. No issues, works well for 4 years now. A full metal enclosure transceiver, properly terminated RG-400 cable, mounted inside an aluminum tailcone is just about as good as it gets. > > > Bob Newman > TCW Technologies, LLC > >> On Jun 3, 2016, at 8:02 AM, Michael Lazarowicz wrote: >> >> Just when I think I have thought of everything in my G3X installation something else comes up. I have a GTX23ES transponder that is a a remote mount. I decided to mount it in the tail section where the rear battery mount is. It worked well there because of weight and balance and I figured my cable run to the Antenna would be short and out of the way of everything else. I missed a requirement in the Garmin Manual that says the Antenna should be 3 feet from the unit. I plande to out eh antenna just behind unit on the belly. I will also have a ADSB antenna on the rear belly and know that it needs to be 3' from the T-ponder antenna according to gamin. >> >> Am I correct in assuming that the same RF problem will exist with the ADSB being to close to the transponder unit itself ? >> I have found at least one Installer that has the transponder unit within a foot of the antenna and has had no problems. >> >> Trying to keep all the antennas separated on the RV8 is not easy. >> >> >> Any thoughts on this are appreciated. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com>
Subject: Re: Saggy bus voltage on Cessna 182
Date: Jun 03, 2016
I started by looking at the voltage at the regulator terminals, which is a t housand times easier to reach than the alternator. I took four measurements, at idle RPM and 1600RPM, lights off and lights on. idle (lights off/lights on) V_bus 13.6 / 13.2 V_F 5.56 / 9.09 V_S 12.87 / 12.34 V_A 13.89 / 13.79 1600RPM (lights off/lights on) V_bus 13.6 / 13.2 V_F 4.02 / 7.72 V_S 12.77 / 12.38 V_A 13.99 / 13.78 It's a 14v regulator. Note: the bus voltage is displayed on the engine monitor, the others are mea sured with my Fluke. Does this shed any light? On Jun 2, 2016, at 15:43, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric .com> wrote: At 10:37 AM 6/2/2016, you wrote: > On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 8:08 AM, Alec Myers wrote: > > > Hello all, > > I wonder if I could get some ideas on fixing an electrical issue with my 1 975 Cessna 182. > > The issue is that the bus voltage sags under load. With the engine running and no electrical load the voltage is approximately 13.8V, dropping to 13.2 V with daytime load (beacon, avionics, engine monitor, electrical TC, autopi lot) and with night time lighting (add strobes, position lights, LED landing and taxi lights, instrument lights) it drops to 12.8V The factory spec set point for those regulators is 14.2 +/- 0.2 volts . . . After engine start and before turning on any additional loads, the BUS voltage should be within those limits. > . > > During flight the battery isn't fully charging and the engine start for th e next flight I would describe as "reluctant". If I top off the battery from a line voltage charger for a few hours the next engine start is "enthusiast ic". This observation rules out soggy battery. Given the voltages you've reported, battery performance sans external supports is understandable. A battery will not accept significant energy at bus voltages below 13.8 . . . and even at 13.8 it would take HOURS to top it off. This is why the slightly excessive set-point is the legacy value of 14.2 was selected for flooded lead-acid batteries . . . 'slight' overcharge that quickly tops off battery without serious 'damage'. The sealed vented lead-acid (SLVA) likes to be charged more aggressively . . . excerpts from the Hawker data says: This fact drives the B&C policy decision to factory set their regulators to 14.6 volts. > I have had the alternator serviced, and I have replaced the regulator. I h ave put a 'scope on the bus with the engine running and I see steady dc with about 50mV pp of ripple. I have a photograph of the scope trace, not sure h ow best to make it visible to list readers, but the ripple looks like a rect ified AC waveform with no gaps (gaps I think would indicate a failed diode). > > Can anyone suggest where I could look next? Yes . . . and it is simple . . . just not easy. You need to get a voltmeter reading at the "S" and "F" terminals of your regulator with the engine running. "VS" should be the 14.2 +/- 0.2 volt value (or what ever is presently presented on the regulator's name-plate) and "VF" should be substantially larger than zero but NOT pegged against the bus . . . if it is pegged, then increase RPM to see if the voltage comes off the peg. I have had the alternator serviced, and I have replaced the regulator. I hav e put a 'scope on the bus with the engine running and I see steady dc with a bout 50mV pp of ripple. I have a photograph of the scope trace, not sure how best to make it visible to list readers, but the ripple looks like a rectif ied AC waveform with no gaps (gaps I think would indicate a failed diode). This reading is WAAaayyy low. It should be on the order of 1.5 volts pk-pk. 3 phase rectified DC is predicted to have an RMS ripple voltage on the order of 4% of the DC output. Hence 14 X 0.04 = 560 mVrms and approx 3x that pk-pk. If the bus voltage is that 'clean' then I think you're going to find that the field voltage is essentially zero. Depending on what you fine for "VS", there's probably a wiring disconnect somewhere along the path from Bus through the alternator switch to the OV sensor, out to the regulator and on to the alternator "F" terminal. Having the voltage measurements I suggested will 'divide' the enemy in the battle toward submission. Finally, once the stock regulator is working, you may want to consider a more modern ADJUSTABLE device that can be set to accommodate the special needs of SVLA batteries. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 03, 2016
Subject: Re: Transponder antenna distance
Well I asked Garmin. and they indicated that in a mental airplane is was probably ot going to be an issue. The manual says distance from Unit , not cable length. The guy I talked with said this is really a bigger issue on composite AC than on mental ones. He also noted that I could switch the ADSB antenna with the Transponder Antenna locations since the ADSB is in only. Fortunately I have enough Coax to do that. I will have close to 3 feet and the Coax will be at least 3 feet long from the transponder to the antenna. On Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Charlie England wrote: > ceengland7(at)gmail.com> > > It's worth asking Garmin, but I'd bet what they really mean is 3' of coax > minimum; easy to do with a 'U' shaped run. > > I'd hope that boxes intended to emit and/or receive RF energy would > contain and isolate it to the center of the coax connector. Otherwise, > you'd have issues with a lot of other 'stuff' in the plane. > > Charlie > > On 6/3/2016 8:07 AM, Tcwtech wrote: > >> >> I have my navworx ads-b box about 12" from the antenna in my rv-10 >> located in the tail cone. No issues, works well for 4 years now. A full >> metal enclosure transceiver, properly terminated RG-400 cable, mounted >> inside an aluminum tailcone is just about as good as it gets. >> >> >> Bob Newman >> TCW Technologies, LLC >> >> On Jun 3, 2016, at 8:02 AM, Michael Lazarowicz >>> wrote: >>> >>> Just when I think I have thought of everything in my G3X installation >>> something else comes up. I have a GTX23ES transponder that is a a remote >>> mount. I decided to mount it in the tail section where the rear battery >>> mount is. It worked well there because of weight and balance and I figured >>> my cable run to the Antenna would be short and out of the way of everything >>> else. I missed a requirement in the Garmin Manual that says the Antenna >>> should be 3 feet from the unit. I plande to out eh antenna just behind >>> unit on the belly. I will also have a ADSB antenna on the rear belly and >>> know that it needs to be 3' from the T-ponder antenna according to gamin. >>> >>> Am I correct in assuming that the same RF problem will exist with the >>> ADSB being to close to the transponder unit itself ? >>> I have found at least one Installer that has the transponder unit within >>> a foot of the antenna and has had no problems. >>> >>> Trying to keep all the antennas separated on the RV8 is not easy. >>> >>> >>> Any thoughts on this are appreciated. >>> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Saggy bus voltage on Cessna 182
At 09:21 AM 6/3/2016, you wrote: I started by looking at the voltage at the regulator terminals, which is a thousand times easier to reach than the alternator. I took four measurements, at idle RPM and 1600RPM, lights off and lights on. idle (lights off/lights on) V_bus 13.6 / 13.2 V_F 5.56 / 9.09 V_S 12.87 / 12.34 V_A 13.89 / 13.79 1600RPM (lights off/lights on) V_bus 13.6 / 13.2 V_F 4.02 / 7.72 V_S 12.77 / 12.38 V_A 13.99 / 13.78 It's a 14v regulator. Interesting . . . Okay, the fact that your field voltages are responding to load changes and not 'stuck on a rail' says the regulator is actively controlling alternator behavior. Voltage behaviors for loads-off/on suggest that the alternator is shouldering the loads albeit at magnitudes less than ideal. If I recall correctly, Vs comes through the ov protection module which explains the approx 1 volt lower value than Va which comes directly from the bus. Va and Bus voltages should be closer together, You might get a reading of bus voltage with the Fluke to compare with what's displayed on the engine monitor . . . but the difference doesn't explain the chief complaint. The fact that your Va value (bus sense to the regulator) is so close to 14.0 (lower limit of spec) suggests that this regulator may have passed acceptance testing at the factory but given that it IS low yet actively controlling the alternator suggests that it's simply set too low . . . but not as low as bus volts reading on your engine monitor suggests. Do you have the service manual for this airplane hence, access to the applicable alternator wiring diagram? My recollections are 40+ years old and may indeed be in error. If you don't have the applicable wiring diagram, I can call my 'mole' at Textron and get the drawing. It would also be useful to get the part number off the regulator. I'm puzzled by the 'scope readings you cited but again, given the values you collected above, the ripple numbers are not germane to the chief complaint either. Given that this is a new regulator, I'm not ready to jump on the defective regulator diagnosis quite yet but the numbers sure do point in that direction . . . How old is your battery and what type . . . flooded or RG? What is the s/n of the airplane? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com>
Subject: Re: Saggy bus voltage on Cessna 182
Date: Jun 03, 2016
I'm going to look for a high impedance connection between the A terminal of t he alternator and the bus: the regulator is seeing 13.8V at A, but with the l oad current flowing from A to the bus the bus voltage is 0.6v lower, at the o ther end of a thick cable and 60A breaker. On Jun 3, 2016, at 12:13, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric .com> wrote: At 09:21 AM 6/3/2016, you wrote: I started by looking at the voltage at the regulator terminals, which is a t housand times easier to reach than the alternator. I took four measurements, at idle RPM and 1600RPM, lights off and lights on. idle (lights off/lights on) V_bus 13.6 / 13.2 V_F 5.56 / 9.09 V_S 12.87 / 12.34 V_A 13.89 / 13.79 1600RPM (lights off/lights on) V_bus 13.6 / 13.2 V_F 4.02 / 7.72 V_S 12.77 / 12.38 V_A 13.99 / 13.78 It's a 14v regulator. Interesting . . . Okay, the fact that your field voltages are responding to load changes and not 'stuck on a rail' says the regulator is actively controlling alternator behavior. Voltage behaviors for loads-off/on suggest that the alternator is shouldering the loads albeit at magnitudes less than ideal. If I recall correctly, Vs comes through the ov protection module which explains the approx 1 volt lower value than Va which comes directly from the bus. Va and Bus voltages should be closer together, You might get a reading of bus voltage with the Fluke to compare with what's displayed on the engine monitor . . . but the difference doesn't explain the chief complaint. The fact that your Va value (bus sense to the regulator) is so close to 14.0 (lower limit of spec) suggests that this regulator may have passed acceptance testing at the factory but given that it IS low yet actively controlling the alternator suggests that it's simply set too low . . . but not as low as bus volts reading on your engine monitor suggests. Do you have the service manual for this airplane hence, access to the applicable alternator wiring diagram? My recollections are 40+ years old and may indeed be in error. If you don't have the applicable wiring diagram, I can call my 'mole' at Textron and get the drawing. It would also be useful to get the part number off the regulator. I'm puzzled by the 'scope readings you cited but again, given the values you collected above, the ripple numbers are not germane to the chief complaint either. Given that this is a new regulator, I'm not ready to jump on the defective regulator diagnosis quite yet but the numbers sure do point in that direction . . . How old is your battery and what type . . . flooded or RG? What is the s/n of the airplane? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Saggy bus voltage on Cessna 182
From: Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com>
Date: Jun 03, 2016
I worked through the wiring from the B lead post on the alternator. The wiring goes from the alternator post, to some kind of filter bolted to the engine side of the firewall (which doesn't appear in the Cessna service manual wiring diagrams) then to the 60 amp alternator CB, then to the bus. The voltage on the alternator B lead post is the same 13.9V (13.8V with heavier load) that I see on the A terminal of the regulator. I looked at the voltage drop along the B current path: it's about 100mV per terminal - there doesn't appear to be one connection that's any worse than the others. There's also about 150-200mV drop across the 60 amp CB, when the bus is loaded up. The terminal screw also gets hot - nearly too hot to touch. Is this expected? It's a thermal-type breaker but I don't know how warm they are intended to get, outside an overload condition. I'm stumped on two questions: Why, although the regulator field terminal voltage is well within normal operating range (4-7v), the regulated voltage is low at 13.8 to 13.9V. This is the case with two different regulators. Secondly why I'm losing 0.6V, distributed equally across four crimp terminals and a CB. I'm going to estimate the current at 20 amps, including LED landing and taxi lights, halogen position and beacon lights, strobes, pitot heat and full avionics bus, and recharging the battery soon after cranking. Is this to be expected? On 2Jun2016, at 11:37 AM, Charlie England wrote: Can you get voltmeter probes *directly on* the alternator B lead post & case? Not on the bolts, clamps etc, but directly on the post. Measure voltage there with the engine running & loads off, then on. Sounds like the alternator is supplying ~the right voltage (possibly just a bit low). But if you have high resistance connections anywhere between the alternator and the loads (on the B+ side *or* the ground side paths), the loads may not be seeing the full alternator voltage. If you have an issue with high resistance connections, the voltage from alternator B terminal to case will still be at 13.8 but your bus (and battery) voltage will be lower, due to voltage drops in the high resistance connections. Secondary possibility would be the same issue, but in the field circuit from regulator to field terminal on the alt. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: saggy bus voltage on Cessna 182
From: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com>
Date: Jun 03, 2016
>> to some kind of filter bolted to the engine side of the firewall (which doesn't appear in the Cessna service manual wiring diagrams) Cessna only installed that filter on airplanes that had the "avionics" package... so the filter is found in the "Avionics" manual for your year range of airplane. The Avionics manuals were typically for the entire 100 series (150/152, 172, 177/RG and 182). Some manuals covered two or three model years. There are free scans online, include lots of little details you won't find elsewhere. >> There's also about 150-200mV drop across the 60 amp CB, when the bus is loaded up. The terminal screw also gets hot - nearly too hot to touch. Is this expected? Nope... sure sign of resistance there. You can start by breaking both connections to the breaker, cleaning them up to shiny, and reassembling them wetted with ACF50 or CorrosionX. But the breaker itself may be developing high resistance, and needs replacement. There's a series of service bulletins on that breaker... it was a problem. Aircraft Spruce and others have aftermarket breakers for that service. Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Saggy bus voltage on Cessna 182
At 02:29 PM 6/3/2016, you wrote: >I'm going to look for a high impedance connection between the A >terminal of the alternator and the bus: the regulator is seeing >13.8V at A, but with the load current flowing from A to the bus the >bus voltage is 0.6v lower, at the other end of a thick cable and 60A breaker. Yea, that seems excessive. An easy experiment to run is install a simple, 4AWG welding cable jumper from alternator b-lead to the hot side of the starter or battery contactors (I believe your battery is up front in that a/c?). Bypass the normal ships wiring and see what the effects are. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Saggy bus voltage on Cessna 182
At 09:30 PM 6/3/2016, you wrote: > >I worked through the wiring from the B lead post on the alternator. >The wiring goes from the alternator post, to some kind of filter >bolted to the engine side of the firewall (which doesn't appear in >the Cessna service manual wiring diagrams) then to the 60 amp >alternator CB, then to the bus. b-lead filters were marginally effective in suppressing some noises in the ADF. The capacitors on most wiring diagrams of that era were flagged as part of the ADF installation kit and often did not show on the production line as-manufactured documents. >The voltage on the alternator B lead post is the same 13.9V (13.8V >with heavier load) that I see on the A terminal of the regulator. > >I looked at the voltage drop along the B current path: it's about >100mV per terminal - there doesn't appear to be one connection >that's any worse than the others. > >There's also about 150-200mV drop across the 60 amp CB, when the bus >is loaded up. The terminal screw also gets hot - nearly too hot to >touch. Is this expected? It's a thermal-type breaker but I don't >know how warm they are intended to get, outside an overload condition. At the current levels you're running during ground tests, that breaker shouldn't warm up to the touch. Those were the least expensive breaker Cessna could put their hands on and with all due respect, the one in your airplane has probably delivered fair value. If this were my airpalne, I'd do a 337 mod to take the b-lead to the starter contactor through an ANL60 current limiter per common, modern practice. Dump the filter . . . even if there IS some observable noise in your ADF, it's unlikely to be a performance issue for its utility. That would reduce the number of joints and greatly reduce the voltage drop from b-lead to bus. >I'm stumped on two questions: > >Why, although the regulator field terminal voltage is well within >normal operating range (4-7v), the regulated voltage is low at 13.8 >to 13.9V. This is the case with two different regulators. I'm with you. Are these 'original' electro-mechanical regulators or an aftermarket, electronic replacement? >Secondly why I'm losing 0.6V, distributed equally across four crimp >terminals and a CB. I'm going to estimate the current at 20 amps, >including LED landing and taxi lights, halogen position and beacon >lights, strobes, pitot heat and full avionics bus, and recharging >the battery soon after cranking. Is this to be expected? No . . . that's a lot more than factory new. Recall that the 'galloping ammeter' phenomenon common to those aircraft has root cause in the build up of resistance in the bus to regulator "A" terminal that eventually forces a negative resistance in the dynamics of the voltage regulator loop. This is common on older airplanes where voltage sense -AND- field supply current share the same feed wire. Many mechanics replace something . . . often the split rocker switch . . . and the problem goes away. The customer is momentarily satisfied that the ammeter stops hopping around. But the fix is temporary in that the fix reduces the loop resistance just below the point of instability. The problem will return. The elegant fix is to renew every metallic joint in that loop from bus bar to "A" terminal. THEN the problem is held off for another 30-40 years. I suspect your 60A breaker is demonstrating effects of age with increased resistance that promotes the heating you've observed. The REAL fix is to install an after market regulator with separate Field Supply and Bus Sense leads. If your old and new regulators are electro-mechanical, there may be a case for long term storage drift of set point in a downward direction. I've never had occasion to study the effects of long term storage on new old-stock components. The real acid test would be to run the regulator on a test stand independent of all effects of aged wiring in the a/c. But it IS a vexing puzzle. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com>
Subject: Re: Saggy bus voltage on Cessna 182
Date: Jun 04, 2016
Alas, Canadian airplane so no 337 type process available... Both old and new regulators are Lamarr, solid state. With "lights on", I used the service manual electrical loads table to calcul ate the current draw on the alternator at close to 50amps (vice my previous e stimate at 20): pitot heat, strobes, position lights, beacon and avionics al l use more current than I thought. Paul Milner kindly pointed me to the Cessna service kit to replace the 60 am p CB, which involves shortening the bus bar so the replacement breaker will f it. I think the approved breaker is $400 or thereabouts, so if it does need r eplacing, does anyone know a PMA alternative? On Jun 4, 2016, at 08:42, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric .com> wrote: At 09:30 PM 6/3/2016, you wrote: > > I worked through the wiring from the B lead post on the alternator. The wi ring goes from the alternator post, to some kind of filter bolted to the eng ine side of the firewall (which doesn't appear in the Cessna service manual w iring diagrams) then to the 60 amp alternator CB, then to the bus. b-lead filters were marginally effective in suppressing some noises in the ADF. The capacitors on most wiring diagrams of that era were flagged as part of the ADF installation kit and often did not show on the production line as-manufactured documents. > The voltage on the alternator B lead post is the same 13.9V (13.8V with he avier load) that I see on the A terminal of the regulator. > > I looked at the voltage drop along the B current path: it's about 100mV pe r terminal - there doesn't appear to be one connection that's any worse than the others. > > There's also about 150-200mV drop across the 60 amp CB, when the bus is lo aded up. The terminal screw also gets hot - nearly too hot to touch. Is this expected? It's a thermal-type breaker but I don't know how warm they are in tended to get, outside an overload condition. At the current levels you're running during ground tests, that breaker shouldn't warm up to the touch. Those were the least expensive breaker Cessna could put their hands on and with all due respect, the one in your airplane has probably delivered fair value. If this were my airpalne, I'd do a 337 mod to take the b-lead to the starter contactor through an ANL60 current limiter per common, modern practice. Dump the filter . . . even if there IS some observable noise in your ADF, it's unlikely to be a performance issue for its utility. That would reduce the number of joints and greatly reduce the voltage drop from b-lead to bus. > I'm stumped on two questions: > > Why, although the regulator field terminal voltage is well within normal o perating range (4-7v), the regulated voltage is low at 13.8 to 13.9V. This i s the case with two different regulators. I'm with you. Are these 'original' electro-mechanical regulators or an aftermarket, electronic replacement? > Secondly why I'm losing 0.6V, distributed equally across four crimp termin als and a CB. I'm going to estimate the current at 20 amps, including LED la nding and taxi lights, halogen position and beacon lights, strobes, pitot he at and full avionics bus, and recharging the battery soon after cranking. Is this to be expected? No . . . that's a lot more than factory new. Recall that the 'galloping ammeter' phenomenon common to those aircraft has root cause in the build up of resistance in the bus to regulator "A" terminal that eventually forces a negative resistance in the dynamics of the voltage regulator loop. This is common on older airplanes where voltage sense -AND- field supply current share the same feed wire. Many mechanics replace something . . . often the split rocker switch . . . and the problem goes away. The customer is momentarily satisfied that the ammeter stops hopping around. But the fix is temporary in that the fix reduces the loop resistance just below the point of instability. The problem will return. The elegant fix is to renew every metallic joint in that loop from bus bar to "A" terminal. THEN the problem is held off for another 30-40 years. I suspect your 60A breaker is demonstrating effects of age with increased resistance that promotes the heating you've observed. The REAL fix is to install an after market regulator with separate Field Supply and Bus Sense leads. If your old and new regulators are electro-mechanical, there may be a case for long term storage drift of set point in a downward direction. I've never had occasion to study the effects of long term storage on new old-stock components. The real acid test would be to run the regulator on a test stand independent of all effects of aged wiring in the a/c. But it IS a vexing puzzle. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: off-line for a couple days
Dr. Dee and I are off to Ft. Hays, KS to do our practicals exams. We'll be super-saturating on EMT-stuff for the next 20 hours. Be back on line tomorrow night. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: ANL fuses
From: "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com>
Date: Jun 04, 2016
Are these car 'Audio' ANL fuses https://www.amazon.co.uk/Auto-Audio-Subwoofer-Amplifier-Fuse/dp/B00CQLJEE4 suitable for our use (eg: RV9 battery feed) John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456858#456858 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Multiple wires/ring terminals on the contactor?
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 05, 2016
I've got three separate wires coming in to a terminal on a contactor. A 2AWG, a 10AWG and an 18AWG. Currently each wire has it's own ring terminal. This makes for a messy terminal with wires sticking out at all different angles and makes it difficult to put a boot over the terminal. I thought about combining the 10 and 18 gauge wire into a single ring terminal which would clean things up a bit. Then there's the challenge of getting all that wire to fit in the boot. Just wondering how others have dealt with this scenario. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456869#456869 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Multiple wires/ring terminals on the contactor?
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Date: Jun 05, 2016
I believe on my contactor the stud was long enough that I could put washers between the ring terminals so that they didn't interfere with each other and then could be lined up in a neat and proper looking stack. There are specific guidelines on using washers and ring terminals on studs and such in the standards manual as I recall. On 6/5/2016 8:39 AM, donjohnston wrote: > > I've got three separate wires coming in to a terminal on a contactor. A 2AWG, a 10AWG and an 18AWG. Currently each wire has it's own ring terminal. > > This makes for a messy terminal with wires sticking out at all different angles and makes it difficult to put a boot over the terminal. > > I thought about combining the 10 and 18 gauge wire into a single ring terminal which would clean things up a bit. > > Then there's the challenge of getting all that wire to fit in the boot. > > Just wondering how others have dealt with this scenario. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456869#456869 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Multiple wires/ring terminals on the contactor?
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: Jun 05, 2016
Don, Can you move the #10 & #18 wire to the connector at the other end of the #2? Electrically the same but that way the #2 is alone and can be booted. Best regards, Robert Borger President, Geowhiziks & Doodlebugging, Inc. AAPG Certified Petroleum Geophysicist #101 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On Jun 5, 2016, at 7:39 AM, donjohnston <don@velocity-xl.com> wrote: I've got three separate wires coming in to a terminal on a contactor. A 2AWG, a 10AWG and an 18AWG. Currently each wire has it's own ring terminal. This makes for a messy terminal with wires sticking out at all different angles and makes it difficult to put a boot over the terminal. I thought about combining the 10 and 18 gauge wire into a single ring terminal which would clean things up a bit. Then there's the challenge of getting all that wire to fit in the boot. Just wondering how others have dealt with this scenario. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Saggy bus voltage on Cessna 182
From: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com>
Date: Jun 05, 2016
- Paul Millner kindly pointed me to the Cessna service kit to replace the 60 amp CB, which involves shortening the bus bar so the replacement breaker will fit. I think the approved breaker is $400 or thereabouts, so if it does need replacing, does anyone know a PMA alternative? Nowadays, we consider breakers standard electrical parts, and under the advisory circular guidance, they don't require special approvals. I understand Transport Canada may not have gotten to that point yet. That said, Aircraft Spruce (even the Canadian flavour of same) have several attractive offerings... You don't have to buy your wire and PIDG terminals from Cessna with PMA do you? BTW, at least one of the service bulletins is: SE76-15-Replacement of Alternator Circuit Breakers (S1596-60L) Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jun 05, 2016
Subject: Re: Multiple wires/ring terminals on the contactor?
> On Jun 5, 2016, at 5:39 AM, donjohnston <don@velocity-xl.com> wrote: > I've got three separate wires coming in to a terminal on a contactor. A 2AWG, a 10AWG and an 18AWG. Currently each wire has it's own ring terminal. > > This makes for a messy terminal with wires sticking out at all different angles and makes it difficult to put a boot over the terminal. As a partial solution, you could turn one of the terminals upside down on the stud so that it doesn't interfere with the one immediately above it. Eric ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Multiple wires/ring terminals on the contactor?
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Jun 05, 2016
[quote="edpav8r(at)yahoo.com"] > > As a partial solution, you could turn one of the terminals upside down on the stud so that it doesn't interfere with the one immediately above it. > > Eric That's what I'm doing now. But it doesn't help with that third terminal. And running the wires to the other end of the 2AWG won't help as that end is pretty heavily populated as well. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456891#456891 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Multiple wires/ring terminals on the contactor?
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 05, 2016
On 6/5/2016 7:16 PM, donjohnston wrote: > > [quote="edpav8r(at)yahoo.com"] >> >> As a partial solution, you could turn one of the terminals upside down on the stud so that it doesn't interfere with the one immediately above it. >> >> Eric > > That's what I'm doing now. But it doesn't help with that third terminal. > > And running the wires to the other end of the 2AWG won't help as that end is pretty heavily populated as well. I can't see any downside to putting both in one connector, except the ability to isolate each feed for troubleshooting purposes. I do know that I've spent literally years on my project trying to go from good enough to perfect..... Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Multiple wires/ring terminals on the contactor?
From: GTH <gilles.thesee(at)free.fr>
Date: Jun 06, 2016
/Le 05/06/2016 14:39, donjohnston a crit : / > /I thought about combining the 10 and 18 gauge wire into a single ring > terminal which would clean things up a bit./ Hi Don and all, That could work. Even better, with an *uninsulated* ring terminal for those two wires, and stacking the terminals back to back you might be able to keep everything in line > /Then there's the challenge of getting all that wire to fit in the > boot. Just wondering how others have dealt with this scenario./ We just... put a larger boot ;-) FWIW -- Best regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Multiple wires/ring terminals on the contactor?
Date: Jun 05, 2016
I had another idea. Fabricate a copper, brass or aluminum tab similar to th e attached image, allowing two side-by-side wires to head off in the same di rection. One hole goes over the stud you're attaching to, along with the he avy wire's lug. The two lighter wires' lugs go back-to-back, bolted to the o ther hole. Size the tab for your hardware and available space. Use star wa shers keep things from moving around. Eric ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Andy Elliott" <a.s.elliott(at)cox.net>
Subject: 24V replacement batteries?
Date: Jun 06, 2016
I have a Concorde RG-24-15 battery in my IFR EAB aircraft. It is an SLA-AGM type battery. It was installed in 2012, and has been living in Arizona for the past 16 months. It is installed in the cabin, but experience has shown that batteries don=92t last too long out here, where hangar temps go over 120=B0F on a regular basis. 3-year replacement cycles are reasonable, and new from AS&S it is $549. Does anyone know of any appropriate service, perhaps non-aviation-specific, lower cost 24V batteries out there that could reasonably replace it? I have a little additional space to work with, so equal-size or smaller would be good! (It is approx. 5.95x7.11x7.15=94.) Andy ------------------------ Andy Elliott, N127VE, GP-4 CL: 480-695-9568 =93If things seem under control, you=92re just not going fast enough.=94 - Mario Andretti ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: 24V replacement batteries?
Date: Jun 06, 2016
Andy, Why not connect 2 Oddesey AGM batteries in series to obtain the 24v you are l ooking for? They are around $120-$130 each. The dimensions can be found onl ine but they are small batteries. You could also bend up a new battery box o r boxes. Justin > On Jun 6, 2016, at 06:34, Andy Elliott wrote: > > I have a Concorde RG-24-15 battery in my IFR EAB aircraft. It is an SLA-A GM type battery. It was installed in 2012, and has been living in Arizona f or the past 16 months. It is installed in the cabin, but experience has sho wn that batteries don=99t last too long out here, where hangar temps g o over 120=C2=B0F on a regular basis. 3-year replacement cycles are reasona ble, and new from AS&S it is $549. > > Does anyone know of any appropriate service, perhaps non-aviation-specific , lower cost 24V batteries out there that could reasonably replace it? I ha ve a little additional space to work with, so equal-size or smaller would be good! (It is approx. 5.95x7.11x7.15=9D.) > > Andy > ------------------------ > Andy Elliott, N127VE, GP-4 > CL: 480-695-9568 > =9CIf things seem under control, you=99re just not going fast enough.=9D - Mario Andretti > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 06, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Multiple wires/ring terminals on the contactor?
At 08:23 PM 6/5/2016, you wrote: >Le 05/06/2016 =E0 14:39, donjohnston a =E9crit : >> >> >>I thought about combining the 10 and 18 gauge >>wire into a single ring terminal which would clean things up a bit. >Hi Don and all, > >That could work. Even better, with an >*uninsulated* ring terminal for those two wires, >and stacking the terminals back to back you >might be able to keep everything in line Un insulated terminals will certainly reduce the cross-section of hardware . . . you can still insulated with double-wall heat-shrink per http://tinyurl.com/j6cueg2 Emacs! Also consider fabricating your own 'flag' terminals to be soldered on as described in Ch9 of the 'Connection. If you're really handy with the metal forming, you can make right and left hand flags that would stack back-to-back so that two offset fat wires in addition to a third, straight-on conductor could go onto the same terminal with the both offset wires on the same side. Consider 3/4" hard-copper couplers as raw material for the terminals . . . pick a drill bit for a mandrel that fits the proposed fat wires. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 07, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 24V replacement batteries?
At 12:16 PM 6/6/2016, you wrote: >Andy, > >Why not connect 2 Oddesey AGM batteries in series to obtain the 24v >you are looking for? They are around $120-$130 each. The dimensions >can be found online but they are small batteries. You could also >bend up a new battery box or boxes. AGM batteries do not need 'boxes' . . . they will not leak even if you drive a nail into them and pull it out. Just strap them down with materials that equal or exceed the legacy 10g crash retention design goal. That means for 15 pounds of SVLA battery, you need 150 pounds of tear-out resistance. Here's a dual, 12v battery installation that most likely meets that goal. Set the batteries in a shallow tray and strap them down. Emacs! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Clive Richards <stephencliverichards(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 07, 2016
Subject: Re: ANL fuses
Hi John looks ok to me I have used a automotive Midi fuse holder and Midi fuse to feed our battery bus. Fuses are available in various ratings from 30 to 150 Amp or for higher ratings 100 to 500A Mega holders & fuses are available. As I believe you are in UK see www.beal.org.uk or just look on ebay Clive On 5 June 2016 at 07:16, JOHN TIPTON wrote: > jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com> > > Are these car 'Audio' ANL fuses > > https://www.amazon.co.uk/Auto-Audio-Subwoofer-Amplifier-Fuse/dp/B00CQLJEE4 > > suitable for our use (eg: RV9 battery feed) > > John > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456858#456858 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 07, 2016
Subject: Re: 24V replacement batteries?
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
CgotLS0tLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBtZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tLS0tCkZyb206ICJSb2JlcnQgTC4gTnVj a29sbHMsIElJSSIKRGF0ZTowNi8wNy8yMDE2IDk6MDQgQU0gKEdNVC0wNTowMCkKVG86IGFlcm9l bGVjdHJpYy1saXN0QG1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IEFlcm9FbGVjdHJpYy1MaXN0 OiAyNFYgcmVwbGFjZW1lbnQgYmF0dGVyaWVzPwoKCiBBR00gYmF0dGVyaWVzIGRvIG5vdCBuZWVk ICdib3hlcycgLiAuIC4gdGhleSB3aWxsCiBub3QgbGVhayBldmVuIGlmIHlvdSBkcml2ZSBhIG5h aWwgaW50byB0aGVtIGFuZAogcHVsbCBpdCBvdXQuCgpIZWFkcy11cDsgbm90IHVuaXZlcnNhbGx5 IHRydWUuIENvbW1vbmx5IGF2YWlsYWJsZSBhZ20gcXVpdCBzdGFydGluZyBteSBydjQgYWZ0ZXIg YWJvdXQgYSB5ZWFyIG9mIHVzZS4gIFB1bGxlZCB0b3AgY293bCAmIGZvdW5kIGEgcGluaG9sZSBp biBzaWRlIG9mIGNhc2UsICYgYWNpZCBzdGFpbiBvbiB0aGUgZmlyZXdhbGwgJ3NoZWxmJy4gICBP YnZpb3VzIGFjaWQgdHJhaWwgZnJvbSBwaW5ob2xlLiBGdXJ0dW5hdGVseSwgaXQgZGlkbid0IGVh dCB0aHJvdWdoIHRoZSBzdGFpbmxlc3MgZmlyZXdhbGwuIAoKSSBzdGlsbCB1c2Ugb3BlbiBob2xk IGRvd25zIGxpa2UgdGhlIHBpYywgYnV0IGEgcnViYmVyICd0cmF5IGxpbmVyJyBub3cgc2VlbXMg YWR2aXNhYmxlLiAKCkNoYXJsaWU ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 08, 2016
Subject: Antenna grounding
I am Installing two Com Bent whip antennas on the belly of my RV8. These are the Comant Brand sold by Stien and others. I have fabricated backing plates with nutplates on them for ease of installation and to beef up the area. I am planing to bond the plates to the inside of the skin. No rivets and actually better support is my theory. I will leave off the bonding agent near the 4 mounting screw holes to attempt to get a good ground. Just to be sure I was considering making a short grounding strap from the the backup plate to the air frame inside. Will this extra ground cause me any issues. If the back plate were riveted it wouldn't be necessary, Also, I f any one has used these antennas they come with a thin cork gasket. N0 instructions (there are none on their web site). Most people I know just use a sealant on the base of the antenna perimeter. Thanks ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna grounding
From: Craig Reding <clr(at)redingaviation.com>
Date: Jun 08, 2016
Michael I am building an 8 as well. What you describe is exactly what I was thinking about doing. If you can post some pictures. Also What structural adhesive were you planning to use? I am thinking about using PRC. ( same a fuel tank sealant) as it will create a waterproof seal, is strong and will not create any corrosion issues later Craig > On Jun 8, 2016, at 12:14 PM, Michael Lazarowicz wrote: > > I am Installing two Com Bent whip antennas on the belly of my RV8. These are the Comant Brand sold by Stien and others. I have fabricated backing plates with nutplates on them for ease of installation and to beef up the area. I am planing to bond the plates to the inside of the skin. No rivets and actually better support is my theory. I will leave off the bonding agent near the 4 mounting screw holes to attempt to get a good ground. Just to be sure I was considering making a short grounding strap from the the backup plate to the air frame inside. > > Will this extra ground cause me any issues. If the back plate were riveted it wouldn't be necessary, > > Also, I f any one has used these antennas they come with a thin cork gasket. N0 instructions (there are none on their web site). Most people I know just use a sealant on the base of the antenna perimeter. > > Thanks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 08, 2016
Subject: Re: Antenna grounding
I have researched this bonding issue quite a bit. T Aviation industry has long used a product called Hysol. Its expensive unless you can find it tin little packs. Click Bond makes a great adhesive that is available in small packs from " the Flight Shop" There about $1:50 each and you don't have to worry about the mixing ratios. There is another alternative that comes from West System EPOXY. zits called G-FLex and you can get it online or most Marine supply houses. I used it to bond the hinges to my cowl. G- Flex was devolved to bond dissimilar material that expand and contract at different temps. Regular Epoxy will crack over time because it gets way to brittle . G Flex is even used to repair Aluminum boats. It comes in two forms. Thickened and regular. You want the thickened. Its a 50/50 mix. I will use the click bond because it is removable if need be with heat. There is also a You tube on G-flex where they show how it can be used to patch even under water. Hope this all helps On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 12:36 PM, Craig Reding wrote: > clr(at)redingaviation.com> > > Michael > > I am building an 8 as well. What you describe is exactly what I was > thinking about doing. > > If you can post some pictures. Also What structural adhesive were you > planning to use? I am thinking about using PRC. ( same a fuel tank > sealant) as it will > create a waterproof seal, is strong and will not create any corrosion > issues later > > > Craig > > > On Jun 8, 2016, at 12:14 PM, Michael Lazarowicz > wrote: > > > > I am Installing two Com Bent whip antennas on the belly of my RV8. > These are the Comant Brand sold by Stien and others. I have fabricated > backing plates with nutplates on them for ease of installation and to beef > up the area. I am planing to bond the plates to the inside of the skin. > No rivets and actually better support is my theory. I will leave off the > bonding agent near the 4 mounting screw holes to attempt to get a good > ground. Just to be sure I was considering making a short grounding strap > from the the backup plate to the air frame inside. > > > > Will this extra ground cause me any issues. If the back plate were > riveted it wouldn't be necessary, > > > > Also, I f any one has used these antennas they come with a thin cork > gasket. N0 instructions (there are none on their web site). Most people I > know just use a sealant on the base of the antenna perimeter. > > > > Thanks > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna grounding
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 08, 2016
If the backing plates are square with a nutplate in each corner, then tightening the screws will bring the corners into contact with the aircraft skin. No additional grounding is needed. A thin film of grease under each corner will prevent corrosion. The grease will not prevent metal to metal contact because the grease will be forced out under screw pressure. Grease will keep air and water and contaminants out. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456968#456968 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 2016
Subject: Antenna grounding
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
V2hhdCdzIHdyb25nIHdpdGggcml2ZXRzPyDCoFdoeSBub3QgYXQgbGVhc3QgYSByaXZldCBpbiBl YWNoIGNvcm5lcj8gVGhlbiB5b3UgZ2V0IHRoZSBlbGVjdHJpY2FsIGJvbmQgeW91IG5lZWQuCgpJ J2QgY29uc2lkZXIgdGhlIGNvcmsgZ2Fza2V0IG9wdGlvbmFsLCBidXQgc29tZSB0eXBlIG9mIHNl YWwgaXMgbmVlZGVkIGJldHdlZW4gYW50ZW5uYSBiYXNlICYgc2tpbi4KCkNoYXJsaWUKCjxkaXY+ LS0tLS0tLS0gT3JpZ2luYWwgbWVzc2FnZSAtLS0tLS0tLTwvZGl2PjxkaXY+RnJvbTogTWljaGFl bCBMYXphcm93aWN6IDx0bGxhejMzMEBnbWFpbC5jb20+IDwvZGl2PjxkaXY+RGF0ZTowNi8wOC8y MDE2ICAxMjoxNCBQTSAgKEdNVC0wNTowMCkgPC9kaXY+PGRpdj5UbzogYWVyb2VsZWN0cmljLWxp c3RAbWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbSA8L2Rpdj48ZGl2PlN1YmplY3Q6IEFlcm9FbGVjdHJpYy1MaXN0OiBB bnRlbm5hIGdyb3VuZGluZyA8L2Rpdj48ZGl2Pgo8L2Rpdj5JIGFtIEluc3RhbGxpbmcgdHdvIENv bSBCZW50IHdoaXAgYW50ZW5uYXMgb24gdGhlIGJlbGx5IG9mIG15IFJWOC4gIFRoZXNlIGFyZSB0 aGUgQ29tYW50IEJyYW5kIHNvbGQgYnkgU3RpZW4gYW5kIG90aGVycy4gIEkgaGF2ZSBmYWJyaWNh dGVkIGJhY2tpbmcgcGxhdGVzIHdpdGggbnV0cGxhdGVzIG9uIHRoZW0gZm9yIGVhc2Ugb2YgaW5z dGFsbGF0aW9uIGFuZCB0byBiZWVmIHVwIHRoZSBhcmVhLiAgSSBhbSBwbGFuaW5nIHRvIGJvbmQg dGhlIHBsYXRlcyB0byB0aGUgaW5zaWRlIG9mIHRoZSBza2luLiAgTm8gcml2ZXRzIGFuZCBhY3R1 YWxseSBiZXR0ZXIgc3VwcG9ydCBpcyBteSB0aGVvcnkuICBJIHdpbGwgbGVhdmUgb2ZmIHRoZSBi b25kaW5nIGFnZW50IG5lYXIgdGhlIDQgbW91bnRpbmcgc2NyZXcgaG9sZXMgdG8gYXR0ZW1wdCB0 byBnZXQgYSBnb29kIGdyb3VuZC4gIEp1c3QgdG8gYmUgc3VyZSBJIHdhcyBjb25zaWRlcmluZyBt YWtpbmcgYSBzaG9ydCBncm91bmRpbmcgc3RyYXAgZnJvbSB0aGUgdGhlIGJhY2t1cCBwbGF0ZSB0 byB0aGUgYWlyIGZyYW1lIGluc2lkZS4gIAoKV2lsbCB0aGlzIGV4dHJhIGdyb3VuZCBjYXVzZSBt ZSBhbnkgaXNzdWVzLiAgSWYgdGhlIGJhY2sgcGxhdGUgd2VyZSByaXZldGVkIGl0IHdvdWxkbid0 ICBiZSBuZWNlc3NhcnksICAKCkFsc28sICBJIGYgYW55IG9uZSBoYXMgdXNlZCB0aGVzZSBhbnRl bm5hcyB0aGV5IGNvbWUgd2l0aCBhIHRoaW4gY29yayBnYXNrZXQuICBOMCBpbnN0cnVjdGlvbnMg KHRoZXJlIGFyZSBub25lIG9uIHRoZWlyIHdlYiBzaXRlKS4gIE1vc3QgcGVvcGxlIEkga25vdyBq dXN0IHVzZSBhIHNlYWxhbnQgb24gdGhlIGJhc2Ugb2YgdGhlIGFudGVubmEgcGVyaW1ldGVyLiAg CgpUaGFua3MK ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 24V replacement batteries?
> > >Heads-up; not universally true. Commonly available agm quit starting >my rv4 after about a year of use. Pulled top cowl & found a pinhole >in side of case, & acid stain on the firewall 'shelf'. Obvious >acid trail from pinhole. Furtunately, it didn't eat through the >stainless firewall. > >I still use open hold downs like the pic, but a rubber 'tray liner' >now seems advisable. > >Charlie Interesting. What kind of battery was this? Was there a 'goose egg' under the pin hole? I'm mystified as to how this might happen. The AGM is valve regulated to vent at 1-2 psi so that any swelling of the case is associated with expanding plates material in their death throes. I've not heard of a cell getting opened to atmosphere on the sides without first suffering gross chemical and electrical energy releases within the cell. This has the smell of a manufacturing defect. Did you go back in with the same brand and part number? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Antenna grounding
At 11:14 AM 6/8/2016, you wrote: >I am Installing two Com Bent whip antennas on >the belly of my RV8.=C2 These are the Comant >Brand sold by Stien and others.=C2 I have >fabricated backing plates with nutplates on them >for ease of installation and to beef up the >area.=C2 I am planing to bond the plates to the >inside of the skin.=C2 No rivets and actually >better support is my theory.=C2 I will leave off >the bonding agent near the 4 mounting screw >holes to attempt to get a good ground.=C2 Just to >be sure I was considering making a short >grounding strap from the the backup plate to the air frame inside.=C2 WAayyyyy too much overkill . . . just rivet the doubler to the a/c with appropriate rivets around the periphery. Rivets swell up in the properly drilled hole making a GAS-TIGHT connection between itself and the mated materials. No other bonding is necessary. The antenna should come with a gasket or you can replace the gasket with a thin bead of electronic (non-acid) rtv or just some E6000 wherein you wipe off the 'squeeze out' after the mounting hardware is tightened. http://tinyurl.com/6rwodso Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 24V replacement batteries?
From: RV7builder <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 08, 2016
wrote: > >> >> >>Heads-up; not universally true. Commonly available agm quit starting >>my rv4 after about a year of use. Pulled top cowl & found a pinhole >>in side of case, & acid stain on the firewall 'shelf'. Obvious >>acid trail from pinhole. Furtunately, it didn't eat through the >>stainless firewall. >> >>I still use open hold downs like the pic, but a rubber 'tray liner' >>now seems advisable. >> >>Charlie > > > Interesting. What kind of battery was this? Was there > a 'goose egg' under the pin hole? I'm mystified as > to how this might happen. The AGM is valve regulated > to vent at 1-2 psi so that any swelling of the case > is associated with expanding plates material in their > death throes. I've not heard of a cell getting opened > to atmosphere on the sides without first suffering > gross chemical and electrical energy releases within > the cell. This has the smell of a manufacturing > defect. > > Did you go back in with the same brand and part > number? > > Bob . . . Response was to the 'poke a hole; can't leak' statement. Hard to edit a quote on a phone/tablet screen keyboard. Pinhole likely happened in shipping. Worked for almost a year, but was slowly losing acid out the pinhole and on to the stainless firewall. -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 04, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Saggy bus voltage on Cessna 182
At 08:59 AM 6/4/2016, you wrote: >Alas, Canadian airplane so no 337 type process available... Fooey . . . >Both old and new regulators are Lamarr, solid state. Aha! Are they not adjustable? >With "lights on", I used the service manual electrical loads table >to calculate the current draw on the alternator at close to 50amps >(vice my previous estimate at 20): pitot heat, strobes, position >lights, beacon and avionics all use more current than I thought. > >Paul Milner kindly pointed me to the Cessna service kit to replace >the 60 amp CB, which involves shortening the bus bar so the >replacement breaker will fit. I think the approved breaker is $400 >or thereabouts, so if it does need replacing, does anyone know a PMA >alternative? Hmmmm . . . your most economical route would be to 'refurbish' . . . replace as much of the parts with made-up, metal to metal joints from the bus to the b-terminal. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com>
Subject: Re: Saggy bus voltage on Cessna 182
Date: Jun 08, 2016
There is an adjustment inside the regulator. The newer regulator has the lid riveted on, but the older one (same part code) has the lid secured by screw s, so the trim pot can be reached. Set to maximum, I now get a bus voltage o f 14.2V under no load, and 13.8 with everything energized. Which is a big im provement. I have sourced a new breaker - as you pointed out, it's a standard electrica l part - I'll let you know what the results are when it's installed. On Jun 4, 2016,:00, Robert L. Nuckolls, III e wrote: At 08:59 AM 6/4/2016, you wrote: > Alas, Canadian airplane so no 337 type process available... Fooey . . . > Both old and new regulators are Lamarr, solid state. Aha! Are they not adjustable? > With "lights on", I used the service manual electrical loads table to calc ulate the current draw on the alternator at close to 50amps (vice my previou s estimate at 20): pitot heat, strobes, position lights, beacon and avionics all use more current than I thought. > > Paul Milner kindly pointed me to the Cessna service kit to replace the 60 a mp CB, which involves shortening the bus bar so the replacement breaker will fit. I think the approved breaker is $400 or thereabouts, so if it does nee d replacing, does anyone know a PMA alternative? Hmmmm . . . your most economical route would be to 'refurbish' . . . replace as much of the parts with made-up, metal to metal joints from the bus to the b-terminal. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 2016
Subject: Re: Antenna grounding
From: Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330(at)gmail.com>
Ok I give . I will rivet it. I have a weird one for you Bob. I have been struggling to mount my antennas the proper distance from each other and comply with other Garmin restrictions . After a lot of back and forth with Garmin I made sure my transponder antenna was three feet from the transponder as required in their installation manual. I sent them a picture of where everything was and their tec guy said he was " concerned" about how close my transponder antenna is to the magnatomiter . The antenna in question is on the belly and is about 11 inches below the manotomiter. There are no restrictions in the magnatomiter installation that says it has to be any specific distance from the transponder antenna. I know they are concerned about magnetism near the unit. Why would they care about the antenna? On Wednesday, June 8, 2016, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 11:14 AM 6/8/2016, you wrote: > > I am Installing two Com Bent whip antennas on the belly of my RV8.=C3=82 These > are the Comant Brand sold by Stien and others.=C3=82 I have fabricated b acking > plates with nutplates on them for ease of installation and to beef up the > area.=C3=82 I am planing to bond the plates to the inside of the skin. =C3=82 No > rivets and actually better support is my theory.=C3=82 I will leave off the > bonding agent near the 4 mounting screw holes to attempt to get a good > ground.=C3=82 Just to be sure I was considering making a short grounding strap > from the the backup plate to the air frame inside.=C3=82 > > > WAayyyyy too much overkill . . . just rivet the > doubler to the a/c with appropriate rivets around > the periphery. Rivets swell up in the properly > drilled hole making a GAS-TIGHT connection between > itself and the mated materials. No other bonding > is necessary. The antenna should come with a gasket > or you can replace the gasket with a thin bead > of electronic (non-acid) rtv or just some E6000 > wherein you wipe off the 'squeeze out' after the > mounting hardware is tightened. > > http://tinyurl.com/6rwodso > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 24V replacement batteries?
From: RV7builder <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 09, 2016
wrote: > >> >> >>Heads-up; not universally true. Commonly available agm quit starting >>my rv4 after about a year of use. Pulled top cowl & found a pinhole >>in side of case, & acid stain on the firewall 'shelf'. Obvious >>acid trail from pinhole. Furtunately, it didn't eat through the >>stainless firewall. >> >>I still use open hold downs like the pic, but a rubber 'tray liner' >>now seems advisable. >> >>Charlie > > > Interesting. What kind of battery was this? Was there > a 'goose egg' under the pin hole? I'm mystified as > to how this might happen. The AGM is valve regulated > to vent at 1-2 psi so that any swelling of the case > is associated with expanding plates material in their > death throes. I've not heard of a cell getting opened > to atmosphere on the sides without first suffering > gross chemical and electrical energy releases within > the cell. This has the smell of a manufacturing > defect. > > Did you go back in with the same brand and part > number? > > Bob . . . Don't know if this went through on the 1st attempt. Response was to the 'poke a hole; can't leak' statement. Hard to edit a quote on a phone/tablet screen keyboard. Pinhole likely happened in shipping. Worked for almost a year, but was slowly losing acid out the pinhole and on to the stainless firewall. Charlie -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 09, 2016
Subject: Size of battery cables
Planning on moving my battery from the tail to the firewall. Current wiring is 2 gauge and so far all the homebuilders I have talked to say minimum 4 gauge but when I go on Aircraft Spruce the only battery cable they sell is 6 gauge. Does anyone use this stuff? I'm going to reuse the 2 gauge for the starter cable but has anyone used 6 gauge wire on a low current, short run install? Longest cable would be 3 feet and while the alternator is 50 A, load is never above 10 A for more than a couple minutes and that's only the initial battery charge after a hard start. Thank you, Sebastien ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Size of battery cables
From: Ron Burnett <ronburnett(at)charter.net>
Date: Jun 09, 2016
I used it for my RV-6A with Subaru and now going Lycoming Ron Burnett Sent from my iPhone > 9, 2016, at 1:49 PM, Sebastien wrote: > > Planning on moving my battery from the tail to the firewall. Current wiring is 2 gauge and so far all the homebuilders I have talked to say minimum 4 gauge but when I go on Aircraft Spruce the only battery cable they sell is 6 gauge. Does anyone use this stuff? I'm going to reuse the 2 gauge for the starter cable but has anyone used 6 gauge wire on a low current, short run install? Longest cable would be 3 feet and while the alternator is 50 A, load is never above 10 A for more than a couple minutes and that's only the initial battery charge after a hard start. > > Thank you, > > Sebastien ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Size of battery cables
From: RV7builder <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 09, 2016
>Planning on moving my battery from the tail to the firewall. Current >wiring >is 2 gauge and so far all the homebuilders I have talked to say minimum >4 >gauge but when I go on Aircraft Spruce the only battery cable they sell >is >6 gauge. Does anyone use this stuff? I'm going to reuse the 2 gauge for >the >starter cable but has anyone used 6 gauge wire on a low current, short >run >install? Longest cable would be 3 feet and while the alternator is 50 >A, >load is never above 10 A for more than a couple minutes and that's only >the >initial battery charge after a hard start. > >Thank you, > >Sebastien Conventional wisdom is to size the alt wire to handle max alt output, and protect the wire on the battery end. I'm using 4 for bat & starter; 8 for alt & runs to the buses. But a really short jump of 6 from bat to master contactor (inches, not feet) should be fine. Charlie -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 09, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Multiple wires/ring terminals on the contactor?
At 08:23 PM 6/5/2016, you wrote: >Le 05/06/2016 =E0 14:39, donjohnston a =E9crit : >> >> >> >>I thought about combining the 10 and 18 gauge >>wire into a single ring terminal which would clean things up a bit. >Hi Don and all, Just realized that I'd put my foot in the tar bucket on this one . . . didn't read the problem closely. Given that the small wires are tapping a major feeder, both wires are candidates for protection at the source end . . . consider installing two, ATC fuse holders http://tinyurl.com/jjel6e6 into a single un-insulated terminal then having that terminal install on the contactor stud back-to-back with the fat wire terminal and all wires parallel to each other. I think you'll find that most silicon rubber boots will stretch over this combination. Then butt-splice extensions on the free ends to continue on toward their assigned tasks. Install fuses size to the extension wires . . . 30A or less for the 10AWG, 10A or less for the 18AWG. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 09, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Saggy bus voltage on Cessna 182
At 10:29 PM 6/8/2016, you wrote: >There is an adjustment inside the regulator. The newer regulator has >the lid riveted on, but the older one (same part code) has the lid >secured by screws, so the trim pot can be reached. Set to maximum, I >now get a bus voltage of 14.2V under no load, and 13.8 with >everything energized. Which is a big improvement. But still too low . . . it shouldn't sag that much under load. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 09, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 24V replacement batteries?
> >Don't know if this went through on the 1st attempt. > >Response was to the 'poke a hole; can't leak' statement. Hard to >edit a quote on a phone/tablet screen keyboard. Pinhole likely >happened in shipping. Worked for almost a year, but was slowly >losing acid out the pinhole and on to the stainless firewall. that makes more sense. internal pressure excursions . . .while small . . . are not zero. So it makes sense that over time, such excursions could cause small amounts of moisture to get loose on each cycle and over time, the effects may well become observable. Good data . . . thanks. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 09, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Antenna grounding
I have a weird one for you Bob. I have been struggling to mount my antennas the proper distance from each other and comply with other Garmin restrictions . After a lot of back and forth with Garmin I made sure my transponder antenna was three feet from the transponder as required in their installation manual. Which transponder are we talking about? I sent them a picture of where everything was and their tec guy said he was " concerned" about how close my transponder antenna is to the magnatomiter . The antenna in question is on the belly and is about 11 inches below the manotomiter. There are no restrictions in the magnatomiter installation that says it has to be any specific distance from the transponder antenna. I know they are concerned about magnetism near the unit. Why would they care about the antenna? A transponder's output is not 'magnetic' in the sense that it would upset the calibration of a compass. However, the peak power output is on the order of 100 to 150 watts which CAN disturb the electronics associated with a magnetometer. If you're already installed, leave it and do flight tests to see if a transponder making replies to ground stations has any observable effect on displayed magnetic heading values. I suspect it will not but it's easy to check. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com>
Subject: Re: Saggy bus voltage on Cessna 182
Date: Jun 09, 2016
Tyco quote a resistance of 20mOhms for their 50A breaker. I just put the new 60A (not Tyco) breaker on the bench for a four terminal resistance check, a nd measure about 30mOhms - at 50A that's a 0.15 volt drop (and 7 watts of he at, which should warm it up). I'm seeing not much more than that on the exis ting installed original breaker, so I'm not sure how much better the new bre aker will be. On Jun 9, 2016, at 22:32, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric .com> wrote: At 10:29 PM 6/8/2016, you wrote: > There is an adjustment inside the regulator. The newer regulator has the l id riveted on, but the older one (same part code) has the lid secured by scr ews, so the trim pot can be reached. Set to maximum, I now get a bus voltage of 14.2V under no load, and 13.8 with everything energized. Which is a big i mprovement. But still too low . . . it shouldn't sag that much under load. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com>
Subject: Re: Saggy bus voltage on Cessna 182
Date: Jun 09, 2016
Oops... my bad. The breaker resistance is 2 milliohms (measured on the bench at 3) but the voltage drop calculation is correct - 150mV. Plus another 2 m illiohm for 3 feet of 8ga wire from the B terminal to the bus, so that's ano ther 150mV drop. That's about half the voltage loss accounted for. On Jun 9, 2016, at 22:56, Alec Myers wrote: Tyco quote a resistance of 20mOhms for their 50A breaker. I just put the new 60A (not Tyco) breaker on the bench for a four terminal resistance check, a nd measure about 30mOhms - at 50A that's a 0.15 volt drop (and 7 watts of he at, which should warm it up). I'm seeing not much more than that on the exis ting installed original breaker, so I'm not sure how much better the new bre aker will be. On Jun 9, 2016, at 22:32, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric .com> wrote: At 10:29 PM 6/8/2016, you wrote: > There is an adjustment inside the regulator. The newer regulator has the l id riveted on, but the older one (same part code) has the lid secured by scr ews, so the trim pot can be reached. Set to maximum, I now get a bus voltage of 14.2V under no load, and 13.8 with everything energized. Which is a big i mprovement. But still too low . . . it shouldn't sag that much under load. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System (G3X, GTN,
etc)
From: "gfb" <fly(at)bappos.com>
Date: Jun 10, 2016
Initial thoughts on electrical system for my RV9, hoping to get some feedback from you folks. I do have some questions below but please feel free to chime in with anything else you feel is valuable. - On the fence about some sort of avionics switch. Most of the big items installed dont have on-off switches on them so I cant keep them off during engine start. I understand the single point of failure problem so I have been avoiding it but it sure would be nice. - Safe to put both trim motors on the same breaker? The GAD27 install manual recommends 2 5A breakers but does not indicate why. Seems like a waste of a breaker to me :) - Any other spots I could save a breaker? I feel that Im too granular with them but cant figure out where to trim :) Maybe Nav+Strobes, Servos+GMC, AudioPanel+GTR20? - What is the preferred method to set up the sd-8 to come on by itself? I have heard setting it's regulator voltage low is pretty common? What should that be set to? - The e-bus relay should see a peak of 20A with typical below 15A. Im considering the B&C with the 25A heat sink? Thanks! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457007#457007 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_9a_breaker_layout_v02_101.png http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_9a_electrical_diagram_v17_1_507.png ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 10, 2016
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System (G3X,
GTN, etc) Hi , I am nearing the end of my G3X Installation. I have a G3X touch, A gr300 Com, A650, Gad27, GRT ADSB , 23 ES transponder and a grand rapids Mini as a back up. I plan to do some "light IFR" . I purchased most everything from StienAir and have been very happy with all their help. Garmin, on the other hand can be problematical. Their support team is helpful and friendly, but at the end of the day They just point to the requirements in their manual and stick by all the listed requirements. If it was not for Stein and his world class staff I would not have made it thru the installation process. This site and Bob N are equally helpful. Here are just a few things I have found that hopefully will help. First of all the Circuit breaker requirements with the new G3X touch system is insane. Each box or unit all seem to to require one . Thanks to purchasing a system interconnect drawing from Stien I found some CB savings. Specifically the auto pilot servos are on one breaker and one switch ( not counting the disconnect switch ). I did not use a GDA27. In the end I have 32 CB's and 6 fuses. The whole avionics buss question is tricky with all this new stuff. Also I have battery backup and that wiring is interesting also. Mine is set up primarily for my EFIS and engine stuff. Hear again, I rely on Stine's drawings to guide me. As you probably know if you read Bob N's book the CB are there primarily to protect the wire. I ran into one interesting case with Aerosun lights where they wanted me to use one 15amp breaker for all three strobe lights that will fire at the same time with a peek amp draw if 5 amps each. Problem is that they recommend 20 gauge wire for the long runs to each strobe. I ended up using 1 15 amp breaker but protect each long run wire with 5 amp fuses in line. Bob thought the 15 amp breaker they recommended was nuts, but sometimes is do not listen. My goal is to not have to change much when I am done. The biggest problem I had was Antenna location. Garmin has some " guidelines/ requirements" that if you used them all you will have a tough time locating everything on your plane . In my case the RV8 is particularly hard. I used their 23ES remote mounted transponder. The manual says they want a maximum of 6.5' from the unit to the transponder. Then they say they want the unit itself no closer than 3 feet to its own antenna. You add this to all the other requirements like Magnetometer, comm antennas antennas, GPS and ADS-B and you will soon run into at least one conflict. AS Stein told me. you just do the best you can and hope it all works out. Hope this helps On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 3:36 AM, gfb wrote: > > Initial thoughts on electrical system for my RV9, hoping to get some > feedback from you folks. I do have some questions below but please feel > free to chime in with anything else you feel is valuable. > > - On the fence about some sort of avionics switch. Most of the big items > installed don=99t have on-off switches on them so I can=99t k eep them off > during engine start. I understand the single point of failure problem so I > have been avoiding it but it sure would be nice. > - Safe to put both trim motors on the same breaker? The GAD27 install > manual recommends 2 5A breakers but does not indicate why. Seems like a > waste of a breaker to me :) > - Any other spots I could save a breaker? I feel that I=99m too gra nular > with them but can=99t figure out where to trim :) Maybe Nav+Strobes, > Servos+GMC, AudioPanel+GTR20? > - What is the preferred method to set up the sd-8 to come on by itself? I > have heard setting it's regulator voltage low is pretty common? What shou ld > that be set to? > - The e-bus relay should see a peak of 20A with typical below 15A. I =99m > considering the B&C with the 25A heat sink? > > Thanks! > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457007#457007 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_9a_breaker_layout_v02_101.png > http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_9a_electrical_diagram_v17_1_507.png > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 10, 2016
Subject: Re: Antenna grounding
Hi Bob, It is Garmins GTX 23. I know of one installation at least where the magnetometer is close ( about 2 feet form the antenna) and there are no problems. That RV8 has been flying for 2 years. I will have the ability to switch the ADSB antenna with the Transponder antenna and get it 4. 5 feet from the magnetometer. The problem is then the Transponder antenna is less than a foot from the GTX23 unit. After hounding Garmin about their requirement that the GTX23 box itself be located 3 feet (not 3 feet of coax) from the transponder antenna I ended up with the transponder antenna 3 feet away and putting the ADSB less than a foot from the box. If it does not work out I can switch the antennas with out too much work later. After pressing the Garmin people one of their guys checked with the Transponder person at Garmin and they indicated they THOUGHT what really was required was at least 3 feet of Coax. There is a Check that I will run on the magnetometer when it is up and running. One with the G3X and one with PC software that Garmin gave me a link to. Thanks for all your help Mike On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 10:47 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > I have a weird one for you Bob. I have been struggling to mount my > antennas the proper distance from each other and comply with other Garmin > restrictions . After a lot of back and forth with Garmin I made sure my > transponder antenna was three feet from the transponder as required in > their installation manual. > > Which transponder are we talking about? > > I sent them a picture of where everything was and their tec guy said he > was " concerned" about how close my transponder antenna is to the > magnatomiter . The antenna in question is on the belly and is about 11 > inches below the manotomiter. > > There are no restrictions in the magnatomiter installation that says it > has to be any specific distance from the transponder antenna. I know they > are concerned about magnetism near the unit. Why would they care about the > antenna? > > A transponder's output is not 'magnetic' in the > sense that it would upset the calibration of a > compass. However, the peak power output is on > the order of 100 to 150 watts which CAN disturb > the electronics associated with a magnetometer. > > If you're already installed, leave it and do > flight tests to see if a transponder making > replies to ground stations has any observable > effect on displayed magnetic heading values. > > I suspect it will not but it's easy to check. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 10, 2016
Subject: Re: Antenna grounding
One other question if you cont mind. I am using RG400 for my ADSB and with all this antenna location I may have to add about 6 " to the ADSB cable. Its already about 12 feet long. This is just ADSB in so not transmission. How much will I loose if I extend the cable with a interconnect fitting ? I got into this long length because of the transponder being in the back. Mike On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 10:47 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > I have a weird one for you Bob. I have been struggling to mount my > antennas the proper distance from each other and comply with other Garmin > restrictions . After a lot of back and forth with Garmin I made sure my > transponder antenna was three feet from the transponder as required in > their installation manual. > > Which transponder are we talking about? > > I sent them a picture of where everything was and their tec guy said he > was " concerned" about how close my transponder antenna is to the > magnatomiter . The antenna in question is on the belly and is about 11 > inches below the manotomiter. > > There are no restrictions in the magnatomiter installation that says it > has to be any specific distance from the transponder antenna. I know they > are concerned about magnetism near the unit. Why would they care about the > antenna? > > A transponder's output is not 'magnetic' in the > sense that it would upset the calibration of a > compass. However, the peak power output is on > the order of 100 to 150 watts which CAN disturb > the electronics associated with a magnetometer. > > If you're already installed, leave it and do > flight tests to see if a transponder making > replies to ground stations has any observable > effect on displayed magnetic heading values. > > I suspect it will not but it's easy to check. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 11, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Antenna grounding
At 08:20 AM 6/10/2016, you wrote: >One other question if you cont mind.=C2 I am >using RG400 for my ADSB and with all this >antenna location I may have to add about 6 " to >the ADSB cable.=C2 Its already about 12 feet >long.=C2 This is just ADSB in so not >transmission.=C2 How much will I loose if I >extend the cable with a interconnect fitting >?=C2 I got into this long length because of the >transponder being in the back.=C2 6 inches? The losses added by 6" plus connector to an existing 12' run cable would be difficult to measure much less observe in practice. A 12' length of RG400 will toss off about 40% of your transmit/receive signals at transponder frequencies . . . http://tinyurl.com/hdphfdv . . . again, probably not enough to be observed in practice. But at Beech, we'd use something more like LMR-400 for a loss of about 15%. There are probably sellers on eBay that would custom assemble a cable for you. What model transponder are we talking about. I like to read the wordage in the manual associated with antenna locations. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 11, 2016
Subject: Re: Antenna grounding
Hi Bob, I am not speaking of the Transponder antenna. Mine will bee around 40" long with RG400. What referring to is the ADSB inn on The Garmin GRT39.remote I does not specify or give any antenna lengths. max or minimum. Teh RV8 bottom make mounting all this stuff 2 Comm antennas one transponder antenna and on ADSB Antenna. Basically Garmin wants them all 3feet or better apart. Since I mounted the transponder box itself a GTS 23ES in back I am fighting the distance Garmin wants between the Unit and the Transponder antenna 3 feet. To add tomy problem I have the Magnetometer in the tail and as I mentioned previously Garmin has concerns that my transponder antenna may be too close to the Magnetometer. I have it set up so I can switch the cables of the ADSB antenna and the Transponder antenna. The transponder is no big deal but my ADSB unit is up front and I already have it run. I was just a small amount short if I do the switch, so I was wondering if I was stretching the limits of the length of the ADSB in. In the End I will just hook it up and do the checks . Just trying to keep the crawling in back and re routing of wire to a minimum. The units are Transponder GTS 23ES, ADSB GRT39 R Thanks On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 3:23 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 08:20 AM 6/10/2016, you wrote: > > One other question if you cont mind.=C3=82 I am using RG400 for my ADSB and > with all this antenna location I may have to add about 6 " to the ADSB > cable.=C3=82 Its already about 12 feet long.=C3=82 This is just ADSB in so not > transmission.=C3=82 How much will I loose if I extend the cable with a > interconnect fitting ?=C3=82 I got into this long length because of the > transponder being in the back.=C3=82 > > > 6 inches? The losses added by 6" plus > connector to an existing 12' run cable > would be difficult to measure much less > observe in practice. > > A 12' length of RG400 will toss off about > 40% of your transmit/receive signals at > transponder frequencies . . . > > http://tinyurl.com/hdphfdv > > . . . again, probably not enough to be > observed in practice. But at Beech, we'd use > something more like LMR-400 for a loss of > about 15%. There are probably sellers > on eBay that would custom assemble a > cable for you. > > What model transponder are we talking about. > I like to read the wordage in the manual > associated with antenna locations. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Antenna grounding
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 11, 2016
Another RV-8 builder posted: > I previously installed my transponder antenna under the RV 8 baggage floor on the left side. I mounted my Navworx ADSB antenna next to the innermost inspection cover on the right wing. This gave me the suggested 5 foot distance between the two and minimized cable length. Works like a charm. > Don http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=788980&postcount=12 Manufacturer's lawyers probably specify the minimum distance between various aircraft antennas. And that distance is probably greater than necessary. Bob, how far apart should a 1090 MHz transmitting antenna be from a 978 MHz receiving antenna? And how far should a transponder antenna be from a com antenna? Thanks -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457041#457041 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 12, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Antenna grounding
> > Bob, how far apart should a 1090 MHz transmitting antenna be from > a 978 MHz receiving antenna? And how far should a transponder > antenna be from a com antenna? Thanks That can only be quantified in the lab and even then, there are dozens of intertwined variables. The two systems are first qualified to some agreed upon design goals. Then powers that be will get their heads together to recommend installation parameters that are unlikely to exceed limitations identified in the design goals. ARC used to want our VHF comm antennas 4 or 5 feet apart . . . but we stuck pairs of them on top of the high-wing Cessnas barely 24 inches apart and similarly spaced from the glide-slope and ADF sense antennas. Engineers and marketing people often WISH for one thing . . . while the folks who have to make it all fit and work find out what the real limits are. Recommendations are seldom tucked up tightly to real lines in the sand . . . I suspect you're correct in the idea that some committee of cognizant individuals probably sat down knowing that 2 feet was enough and then doubled it. I think the risks to hardware due to proximity are minimal . . . the biggest concern is for degraded performance. So do the best you can then try it out. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 12, 2016
Subject: Re: Antenna grounding
From: Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330(at)gmail.com>
When talking of com antennas . How do you deal with a bent whip? Distance from base or from the tip? On Sunday, June 12, 2016, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > Bob, how far apart should a 1090 MHz transmitting antenna be from a 978 > MHz receiving antenna? And how far should a transponder antenna be from a > com antenna? Thanks > > > That can only be quantified in the lab and even then, there > are dozens of intertwined variables. The two systems are first > qualified to some agreed upon design goals. Then powers that > be will get their heads together to recommend installation > parameters that are unlikely to exceed limitations identified > in the design goals. > > ARC used to want our VHF comm antennas 4 or 5 feet > apart . . . but we stuck pairs of them on top of > the high-wing Cessnas barely 24 inches apart and > similarly spaced from the glide-slope and ADF > sense antennas. > > Engineers and marketing people often WISH for > one thing . . . while the folks who have to make > it all fit and work find out what the real limits > are. Recommendations are seldom tucked up tightly > to real lines in the sand . . . > > I suspect you're correct in the idea that some committee > of cognizant individuals probably sat down knowing > that 2 feet was enough and then doubled it. I think the > risks to hardware due to proximity are minimal . . . the > biggest concern is for degraded performance. So do the > best you can then try it out. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 12, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Antenna grounding
>I have it set up so I can switch the cables of >the ADSB antenna and the Transponder antenna. >The transponder is no big deal but my ADSB unit >is up front and I already have it run.=C2 I was >just=C2 a small amount short if I do the switch, >so I was wondering if I was stretching the >limits of the length of the ADSB in.=C2 probably not . . . >In the End I will just hook it up and do the >checks .=C2 Just trying to keep the crawling in >back and re routing of wire to a minimum.=C2 sounds like a plan . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 12, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System (G3X,
GTN, etc) At 02:36 AM 6/10/2016, you wrote: > >Initial thoughts on electrical system for my >RV9, hoping to get some feedback from you folks. >I do have some questions below but please feel >free to chime in with anything else you feel is valuable. > >- On the fence about some sort of avionics >switch. Most of the big items installed don=99t >have on-off switches on them so I can=99t keep >them off during engine start. I understand the >single point of failure problem so I have been >avoiding it but it sure would be nice. What is the foundation for needing one in the first place? > >- Safe to put both trim motors on the same >breaker? The GAD27 install manual recommends 2 >5A breakers but does not indicate why. Seems like a waste of a breaker to me :) "Safe" is an un-quantified term in aviation . . . airplanes are dangerous as @#$$. We design and choose parts that drive risks lower . . . but they are never zero. So the answer to your question is, what are additional hazards for having both trims disabled from the same fault? I suspect they are vanishingly small. So if you're crowded for breaker space, then drive on. Remember, 99.99$% of all breakers and fuses in vehicles of any time sit there for the lifetime of the airplane never having been called upon to do their job: protect a wire. >- Any other spots I could save a breaker? I feel >that I=99m too granular with them but can=99t >figure out where to trim :) Maybe >Nav+Strobes, Servos+GMC, AudioPanel+GTR20? Why not fuse blocks of generous size mounted out of the way but in sufficient quantity to offer independent protection for every feeder . . . with unassigned slots as spares for future expansion? >- What is the preferred method to set up the >sd-8 to come on by itself? I have heard setting >it's regulator voltage low is pretty common? What should that be set to? Why do this? When the low voltage light comes on you say, "Aw shucks!". Finish the cup of coffee, fold up the map, tell the passenger that the little yellow light is no big deal. Then flip a few switches to bring your second engine driven power source into service. The hazards for main alternator are not grounded in real risk to comfortable termination of flight. It's the un founded belief that it's a hazard that drive up your pucker-factor. - The e-bus relay should see a peak of 20A with typical below 15A. I=99m considering the B&C with the 25A heat sink? 20A ebus? How did this get BIGGER than the SD-8 output? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System (G3X,
GTN, etc)
From: "gfb" <fly(at)bappos.com>
Date: Jun 12, 2016
On avionics switch, would be interesting to have most avionics off while cranking the engine. For the Trim breaker, Ray Allen indicates that a single 1A would be enough for both trim motors. This sounds odd considering Garmin recommended a 5A for each. Yeah, I'm probably going to brake a few items out into fuse blocks. I'm thinking exterior lights get one, LRUs, Cabin Power, and maybe one other. Is it reasonable to have these fuse blocks have a pull breaker on the panel? i.e. Ext Lights panel breaker for 20A goes to a fuse block behind the panel with fuses for each light. Is this reasonable? The e-bus has a peak that exceeds the SD-8. This only happens if everything is on at once, including the boost pump running, the radio transmitting, both servos moving and trimming, and a dead ibbs battery charging. This will likely never happen, definitely not for any amount of time longer than a second or so. The normal draw for the bus should be about 6A with it maybe going up to 10-15A on landing. I'm looking at the SD-8 as more of a battery extender than a full redundant alternator. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457056#457056 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 13, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System
(G3X, GTN, etc) At 03:46 PM 6/12/2016, you wrote: > >On avionics switch, would be interesting to have most >avionics off while cranking the engine. The idea behind the avionics master switch was birthed about 1965 when transistors were first starting to show up in the radios. Compared to today's hardware, batteries were relatively soggy 'soggy' devices. We were 'killing' radios in brand new airplanes before they left the factory. The real physics behind those failures was poorly understood. See http://tinyurl.com/hye6mpe Today's batteries are more robust as are the radios themselves. All things potentially hazardous to the community of silicon devices are well known and easily managed. Today, there is nothing that any vehicular dc power system can throw at a properly applied transistor that puts the device at-risk. >For the Trim breaker, Ray Allen indicates that a single 1A would be >enough for both trim motors. This sounds odd considering Garmin >recommended a 5A for each. Breakers/fuses protect wires. You're probably not going to wire with anything smaller than 22AWG for which 5A is the recommended protection. While 1A protection for both is 'enough', 5A protection is not 'too much' based not on what's at the end of the wire but based on the wire size alone. The decisions for wire sizing/protection are going to be simple . . . the more difficult part is to craft an architecture that produces the most failure tolerant design based on the airplane's flight handling qualities and how you intend to use the airplane. In most instances, loss of one or both trim systems does not present an especially risky situation. On the other hand, protecting each system independently of each other is easy and likelihood of ANY protective device being tripped is exceedingly low. >Yeah, I'm probably going to brake a few items out into fuse blocks. >I'm thinking exterior lights get one, LRUs, Cabin Power, and maybe >one other. Is it reasonable to have these fuse blocks have a pull >breaker on the panel? >i.e. Ext Lights panel breaker for 20A goes to a fuse block behind >the panel with fuses for each light. >Is this reasonable? Why any breakers at all? They're expensive, take up panel space, have no useful purpose to the pilot in operating the aircraft. They force you to route wires to relatively unhandy places while increasing weight. See http://tinyurl.com/hjkqsto I proposed a shift from breakers back to fuses in aircraft about 20 years ago. Since that time, many failure tolerant airplanes have been crafted with no breakers at a substantial savings of weight, cost and build time. >The e-bus has a peak that exceeds the SD-8. This only happens if >everything is on at once, including the boost pump running, the >radio transmitting, both servos moving and trimming, and a dead ibbs >battery charging. This will likely never happen, definitely not for >any amount of time longer than a second or so. The normal draw for >the bus should be about 6A with it maybe going up to 10-15A on >landing. I'm looking at the SD-8 as more of a battery extender than >a full redundant alternator. You've done a load analysis . . . great! The loads you describe do not suggest the need for a relay . . . a toggle switch will handle them nicely. If a relay is necessary, something like this is entirely appropriate to the task http://tinyurl.com/hdmkvvt Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: If you really want a avionics switch - do it this way
From: "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com>
Date: Jun 13, 2016
Hi Bob (et all) I've been thinking of using this system (RV9a) http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/avmaster.pdf for a avionics switch - would it be 'acceptable' to use a two pole, changeover (2-10) switch, as neither circuit would/should be on together, so: centre all off, switch up, avionics live, switch down, endurance bus feed live Regards - John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457076#457076 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: If you really want a avionics switch - do it this
way
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 13, 2016
The 2-10 switch functions are: Down: Both OFF Center: One circuit ON UP: Both circuits ON The S700-2-1 switch functions are as you posted: Down: One circuit ON Center: Both OFF UP: The other circuit ON The S700-2-1 nomenclature is only used by B&C. If purchased elsewhere, it is called a DPDT switch with center off. If a switch description contains ( ) , that indicates a momentary position. The disadvantages of having a switch in series with the diode are that the switch adds complexity and can fail. If there is no switch, it can not fail. There may be rare occasions when it is desired to shut off all avionics. But it is better to shut off each one individually, because switches need exercising to rub off oxidation. Aircraft switches are more likely to fail from corroded contacts than from mechanical failure (wearing out). -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457080#457080 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 13, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: If you really want a avionics switch - do it
this way At 09:44 AM 6/13/2016, you wrote: > > >Hi Bob (et all) > >I've been thinking of using this system (RV9a) >http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/avmaster.pdf >for a avionics switch - would it be 'acceptable' to use a two pole, >changeover (2-10) switch, as neither circuit would/should be on >together, so: centre all off, switch up, avionics live, switch down, >endurance bus feed live I'd rather you use two separate switches. No single point of failure. Having ALL switches on at the same time poses no hazards. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: If you really want a avionics switch - do it this
way
From: "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com>
Date: Jun 14, 2016
Hi Bob I know what you are saying about single point of failure, but a two pole swtich, with both sides failing, I fly a forty plus year old C172 (keeps me current while I build the RV) has switches which are very 'wobbly' and I presume they are original, but still doing their job - A good MS (Hamilton) switch should have some longevity built in I hope Regards: John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457111#457111 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: If you really want a avionics switch - do it
this way
Date: Jun 14, 2016
Hi John I have seen many of these good switches fail mechanically in commercial aircraft. Don't forget that any of the switches in that 172 that had manufacturing defects and died early were replaced after they failed. Sebastien > On Jun 14, 2016, at 05:19, JOHN TIPTON wrote: > > > Hi Bob > > I know what you are saying about single point of failure, but a two pole swtich, with both sides failing, I fly a forty plus year old C172 (keeps me current while I build the RV) has switches which are very 'wobbly' and I presume they are original, but still doing their job - A good MS (Hamilton) switch should have some longevity built in I hope > > Regards: John > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457111#457111 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 14, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: If you really want a avionics switch - do
it this way At 04:19 AM 6/14/2016, you wrote: > > >Hi Bob > >I know what you are saying about single point of failure, but a two >pole swtich, with both sides failing, I fly a forty plus year old >C172 (keeps me current while I build the RV) has switches which are >very 'wobbly' and I presume they are original, but still doing their >job - A good MS (Hamilton) switch should have some longevity built in I hope 'hope' is the operative word. my FMEA teachers schooled their practitioners, insofar as possible, to convert hope into a certainty. The FAA's FARS tended to agree. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jacob Balmer <george(at)yukonflying.com>
Subject: Can anyone explain this antennae to me?
Date: Jun 14, 2016
What have I got here, can anyone tell me? Found inside a Rans S7. Continuity between BNC jacket and antennae wand, and Continuity between coax center wire and brass nut. -- J. George Balmer 867-334-3555 www.YukonFlying.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System (G3X,
GTN, etc)
From: "gfb" <fly(at)bappos.com>
Date: Jun 14, 2016
OK, I think I see your point on not needing breakers and going with fuses but I'm not 100% there yet. For my personal sense of comfort I'd like to have items on the endurance bus on breakers. Does this seem like a reasonable compromise? It allows me to load-shed even further by pulling breakers if needed and uses much fewer breakers and panel space. Thoughts? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457134#457134 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System (G3X,
GTN, etc)
From: "gfb" <fly(at)bappos.com>
Date: Jun 14, 2016
Does the rest of the circuit seem reasonable? Could you elaborate on the e-bus switch vs relay? Up to what amperage is it ok for it to be a regular switch? I was planning on using the S700 Carling switches sold by b&c and they claim 15A VAC but a quick search for them seems to bring up more failure posts than details on the switches. Is there a better option? For the fuse blocks I'm looking at the ones sold by b&c and they come in different sizes. Does it make sense to have 2 or 3 to split up the load a bit? Where should they feed from? i.e. should I have one large wire for the firewall passthrough and then split that up somewhere between the fuse blocks? Thanks! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457135#457135 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System (G3X,
GTN, etc)
From: Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net>
Date: Jun 14, 2016
A breaker pops from too much amperage being drawn. Is it just a transient phenomena? Likely not. If wires are shorting, it will happen again. Why risk resetting? It will do no good. I have 700 hours on my experimental with fuses. They have never popped unless I was fiddling with circuits and shorted something. I do have electronic ignitions on breakers but I have never needed the breakers. Use what is cheap and simple. :-) An essential bus ought to be a load-shedded bus anyway so you shouldnt have to pull additional breakers to shed load. -Kent > On Jun 14, 2016, at 3:14 PM, gfb wrote: > > > OK, I think I see your point on not needing breakers and going with fuses but I'm not 100% there yet. For my personal sense of comfort I'd like to have items on the endurance bus on breakers. Does this seem like a reasonable compromise? It allows me to load-shed even further by pulling breakers if needed and uses much fewer breakers and panel space. Thoughts? > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457134#457134 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System (G3X,
GTN, etc)
From: Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net>
Date: Jun 14, 2016
> On Jun 14, 2016, at 3:24 PM, gfb wrote: > > > Does the rest of the circuit seem reasonable? > > Could you elaborate on the e-bus switch vs relay? Up to what amperage is it ok for it to be a regular switch? I was planning on using the S700 Carling switches sold by b&c and they claim 15A VAC but a quick search for them seems to bring up more failure posts than details on the switches. Is there a better option? > If your e-bus is only a radio and other low-amp stuff, a toggle switch will do. > For the fuse blocks I'm looking at the ones sold by b&c and they come in different sizes. Does it make sense to have 2 or 3 to split up the load a bit? Where should they feed from? i.e. should I have one large wire for the firewall passthrough and then split that up somewhere between the fuse blocks? I have made a main bus-and-essential bus setup two ways. (1) By using a 12+ fuse Bussman fuse block with a diode feeding a 6-fuse Bussman block (the 6 position becomes the essential bus and can be independently powered via a toggle switch off the battery), or (2) cutting the central conductor in a large Bussman fuse block, soldering a tab onto the opposite end, then using a diode to from the main side to power the essential side. Again, the essential side can receive power from the battery via a toggle switch under emergency conditions. Thanks to Bob for these ideas. :-) -Kent > > Thanks! > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457135#457135 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System (G3X,
GTN, etc)
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jun 14, 2016
One advantage of relays is remote control. The relay can be located close to the battery. In the event of smoke in the cockpit or an imminent forced landing, power can be shut off at the source without having hot wires entering the cockpit. Switch the negative side of the relay like the battery contactor. I can not remember the brand, but their switches used rivets to conduct electrons from inside of the housing to the outside. The problem was that the plastic case was part of the sandwich that the rivet held together. The plastic flowed over time which allowed the rivets to loosen. That led to resistance and heat and failure. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457144#457144 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 15, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System
(G3X, GTN, etc) At 02:14 PM 6/14/2016, you wrote: > >OK, I think I see your point on not needing breakers and going with >fuses but I'm not 100% there yet. For my personal sense of comfort >I'd like to have items on the endurance bus on breakers. Does this >seem like a reasonable compromise? Compromise for what? If a breaker ever opens it means something is broke . . . and that something threatens to set a wire on fire. You want to give it a second chance? What items in your airplane are high priority equipment for comfortable termination of flight? From that list of items, how many of them can fail in ways that do not open a breaker? I can tell you that the vast majority of equipment failures never open a breaker . . . if that item is so necessary/useful that you're worried about being able to reclose a breaker, then you'd better have a plan-b . . . a back up for when the system decides to take a vacation. >It allows me to load-shed even further by pulling breakers if needed >and uses much fewer breakers and panel space. Thoughts? Load shed? What's the e-bus for? The LAST thing you should be doing in flight is running any kind of mental gymnastics calculated to reduce risks of dealing with some kind of failure. ALL such things are done at THIS phase of your design and fabrication. Should a necessary item go T.U. then you go to plan-b. If the item is not necessary, then there is no plan-B. The idea behind the e-bus is to do a two-switch load shed that either (1) does not overtax an SD-8 or (2) produces a KNOWN endurance value running battery only based on periodic capacity checks of your battery. Messing with any breaker or fuse in flight is a demonstration of poor planning that should have been managed during THIS phase of your project's development. Put the fuse blocks out of sight and out of mind. Deal with system difficulties as a pilot with a plan . . . not an in-flight diagnostician and maintenance technician. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 15, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System
(G3X, GTN, etc) >Could you elaborate on the e-bus switch vs relay? Up to what >amperage is it ok for it to be a regular switch? Sure. Any generic toggle switch of any rating is unlikely to be overstressed in your airplane. > I was planning on using the S700 Carling switches sold by b&c and > they claim 15A VAC but a quick search for them seems to bring up > more failure posts than details on the switches. Is there a better option? The Carling switches sold by B&C are direct descendants of those used by the hundreds of thousands on Cessna and Piper aircraft for decades. What details are you lacking? Keep in mind that nobody posts about their working switches . . . only the ones that have presented some problem . . . hence, a dozen posts of problems over a period of years may have the appearance of describing a quality issue. Switches, like every other device or bit of material in your project, are subject to failure . . . nothing lasts forever. Switches on personally owned airplanes have nearly zero service stress compared to, say the light switch in your bathroom. When doing the failure modes analysis for your project the questions to be asked are: How can this part fail? How will I know that it has failed? Is the failure pre-flight detectable? The answer to the third question drives your architecture and checklist decisions. Does failure present some degree of elevated risk for uncomfortable termination of flight? The answer to the fourth question drives your decisions for having a plan-b assuming that the part will fail. The beauty and comfort to be secured by an artfully crafted FMEA is that you don't care if the part fails . . . it's not an issue of increased risk. It's only effect is a cost-of-ownership. You might upgrade a part because you're tired of replacing it . . . not because it #@%%@% near got you killed. THAT is failure tolerant design . . . stone simple, cheap, easy to do. >For the fuse blocks I'm looking at the ones sold by b&c and they >come in different sizes. Does it make sense to have 2 or 3 to split >up the load a bit? Where should they feed from? i.e. should I have >one large wire for the firewall passthrough and then split that up >somewhere between the fuse blocks? Generally, each block represents one bus. In figure Z-13/8 you need three. Battery, Main and E-bus blocks. Other architectures will call for more or fewer blocks. Install blocks larger than needed today to allow for easy, future expansion. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Greenley" <wgreenley(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System
(G3X, GTN, etc)
Date: Jun 16, 2016
One place on my Cessna I have found a breaker VERY useful is the 12v power port (aka Cigarette lighter). Sometimes items with too big a draw get plugged in and blow the breaker, remove item, reset, and can still use other items in flight. From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 4:11 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System (G3X, GTN, etc) At 02:14 PM 6/14/2016, you wrote: OK, I think I see your point on not needing breakers and going with fuses but I'm not 100% there yet. For my personal sense of comfort I'd like to have items on the endurance bus on breakers. Does this seem like a reasonable compromise? Compromise for what? If a breaker ever opens it means something is broke . . . and that something threatens to set a wire on fire. You want to give it a second chance? What items in your airplane are high priority equipment for comfortable termination of flight? From that list of items, how many of them can fail in ways that do not open a breaker? I can tell you that the vast majority of equipment failures never open a breaker . . . if that item is so necessary/useful that you're worried about being able to reclose a breaker, then you'd better have a plan-b . . . a back up for when the system decides to take a vacation. It allows me to load-shed even further by pulling breakers if needed and uses much fewer breakers and panel space. Thoughts? Load shed? What's the e-bus for? The LAST thing you should be doing in flight is running any kind of mental gymnastics calculated to reduce risks of dealing with some kind of failure. ALL such things are done at THIS phase of your design and fabrication. Should a necessary item go T.U. then you go to plan-b. If the item is not necessary, then there is no plan-B. The idea behind the e-bus is to do a two-switch load shed that either (1) does not overtax an SD-8 or (2) produces a KNOWN endurance value running battery only based on periodic capacity checks of your battery. Messing with any breaker or fuse in flight is a demonstration of poor planning that should have been managed during THIS phase of your project's development. Put the fuse blocks out of sight and out of mind. Deal with system difficulties as a pilot with a plan . . . not an in-flight diagnostician and maintenance technician. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System
(G3X, GTN, etc) At 08:36 AM 6/16/2016, you wrote: >One place on my Cessna I have found a breaker VERY useful is the 12v >power port (aka Cigarette lighter). Sometimes items with too big a >draw get plugged in and blow the breaker, remove item, reset, and >can still use other items in flight. The factory stock 'cigar' lighter? Waaayyyy back when, the folks at the factory decided it was better to call them cigar lighters . . . seems that tobacco smoke particulates were too fine to be captured by the paper air filter for the vacuum driven instruments. We were seeing early demise of gyros flown by pilots who smoked while airborne . . . Somebody got the idea that this problem might be helped if we started calling them cigar lighters . . . fatter smoke particles . . . Emacs! In any case, your anecdote is the corollary to outlets in your house where a branch circuit is shared by other outlets with wildly variable total loads. Too many hot-dog cookers, microwaves, and pizza ovens plugged in at the same time may pop a breaker. Fuses and breakers intended to supply system hardware should not be shared with any other system . . . unless loss of ALL systems is a low, acceptable risk condition. The founding philosophy for bus structures with independently protected feeders is ISOLATION between systems such that no fault brings down more than the affected system. How much stuff do you plug into the cigar lighter? On many Cessnas of the 1970 time frame the cigar lighter was powered through a 20A fuse and later a 10A breaker. 10A is a LOT of 'stuff' to run from such a connector Emacs! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System
(G3X, GTN, etc)
Date: Jun 16, 2016
Bob With due respect, what William meant to say is that, against the anti-CB ten dency of you and many people in this forum, he has found a particular circui t (the "cigar" lighter-type power port) where a circuit breaker is the prefe rred method (instead of a fuse) Regards Carlos Enviado do meu iPhone No dia 16/06/2016, =C3-s 16:53, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aero electric.com> escreveu: > At 08:36 AM 6/16/2016, you wrote: >> One place on my Cessna I have found a breaker VERY useful is the 12v powe r port (aka Cigarette lighter). Sometimes items with too big a draw get plug ged in and blow the breaker, remove item, reset, and can still use other ite ms in flight. > > The factory stock 'cigar' lighter? Waaayyyy back when, > the folks at the factory decided it was better to call > them cigar lighters . . . seems that tobacco smoke > particulates were too fine to be captured by the > paper air filter for the vacuum driven instruments. > We were seeing early demise of gyros flown by > pilots who smoked while airborne . . . > > Somebody got the idea that this problem might be > helped if we started calling them cigar lighters . . . > fatter smoke particles . . . > > > <6bca009.jpg> > > > In any case, your anecdote is the corollary to > outlets in your house where a branch circuit > is shared by other outlets with wildly variable > total loads. Too many hot-dog cookers, microwaves, > and pizza ovens plugged in at the same time > may pop a breaker. > > Fuses and breakers intended to supply system > hardware should not be shared with any other > system . . . unless loss of ALL systems is > a low, acceptable risk condition. The founding > philosophy for bus structures with independently > protected feeders is ISOLATION between systems > such that no fault brings down more than the > affected system. > > How much stuff do you plug into the cigar > lighter? On many Cessnas of the 1970 time frame > the cigar lighter was powered through a 20A fuse > and later a 10A breaker. 10A is a LOT of 'stuff' > to run from such a connector > > <6bca066.jpg> > > > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Greenley" <wgreenley(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System
(G3X, GTN, etc)
Date: Jun 16, 2016
Thanks for the info, I need to check the wiring et al on mine, it only has a 5A breaker. Which is easy to blow. Just assumed it was correct. From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 11:54 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System (G3X, GTN, etc) At 08:36 AM 6/16/2016, you wrote: One place on my Cessna I have found a breaker VERY useful is the 12v power port (aka Cigarette lighter). Sometimes items with too big a draw get plugged in and blow the breaker, remove item, reset, and can still use other items in flight. The factory stock 'cigar' lighter? Waaayyyy back when, the folks at the factory decided it was better to call them cigar lighters . . . seems that tobacco smoke particulates were too fine to be captured by the paper air filter for the vacuum driven instruments. We were seeing early demise of gyros flown by pilots who smoked while airborne . . . Somebody got the idea that this problem might be helped if we started calling them cigar lighters . . . fatter smoke particles . . . Emacs! In any case, your anecdote is the corollary to outlets in your house where a branch circuit is shared by other outlets with wildly variable total loads. Too many hot-dog cookers, microwaves, and pizza ovens plugged in at the same time may pop a breaker. Fuses and breakers intended to supply system hardware should not be shared with any other system . . . unless loss of ALL systems is a low, acceptable risk condition. The founding philosophy for bus structures with independently protected feeders is ISOLATION between systems such that no fault brings down more than the affected system. How much stuff do you plug into the cigar lighter? On many Cessnas of the 1970 time frame the cigar lighter was powered through a 20A fuse and later a 10A breaker. 10A is a LOT of 'stuff' to run from such a connector Emacs! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System
(G3X, GTN, etc) At 11:25 AM 6/16/2016, you wrote: >Bob > >With due respect, what William meant to say is that, against the >anti-CB tendency of you and many people in this forum, he has found >a particular circuit (the "cigar" lighter-type power port) where a >circuit breaker is the preferred method (instead of a fuse) No argument . . . Cessna went away from a 20A inline fuse to a 10A breaker no doubt 'cause folks were popping the fuse a lot. The point being offered is that a well considered array of loads to one's airplane will never nuisance pop a breaker or fuse. Knowing loads and limitations before 'hooking up' is a good thing to do . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System
(G3X, GTN, etc) At 11:25 AM 6/16/2016, you wrote: >Thanks for the info, I need to check the wiring et al on mine, it >only has a 5A breaker. Which is easy to blow. Just assumed it was correct. Interesting! This is a 14 or 28v airplane? Check your maintenance manual for the factory installed part data . . . the drawing I posted was for a group of 172's. Given that all the single engine products were wired by one electrical group, features in one model tended to ripple across the spectrum of products . . . but that's not a hard/fast rule. If you don't have a manual, give me the s/n of the airplane and I'll see if my 'contacts' can shoot us the drawing. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System
(G3X, GTN, etc)
Date: Jun 16, 2016
Keep in mind that the circuit breaker needs to be matched to the appropriate wire size. The circuit protection is there to protect the wire, not the loa d. First assess how much current the load will pull. Then choose an appropriat e sized wire and circuit protection. Justin > On Jun 16, 2016, at 08:25, William Greenley wrote: > > Thanks for the info, I need to check the wiring et al on mine, it only has a 5A breaker. Which is easy to blow. Just assumed it was correct. > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelect ric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 11:54 AM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical Sys tem (G3X, GTN, etc) > > At 08:36 AM 6/16/2016, you wrote: > > One place on my Cessna I have found a breaker VERY useful is the 12v power port (aka Cigarette lighter). Sometimes items with too big a draw get plugg ed in and blow the breaker, remove item, reset, and can still use other item s in flight. > > The factory stock 'cigar' lighter? Waaayyyy back when, > the folks at the factory decided it was better to call > them cigar lighters . . . seems that tobacco smoke > particulates were too fine to be captured by the > paper air filter for the vacuum driven instruments. > We were seeing early demise of gyros flown by > pilots who smoked while airborne . . . > > Somebody got the idea that this problem might be > helped if we started calling them cigar lighters . . . > fatter smoke particles . . . > > > > > > In any case, your anecdote is the corollary to > outlets in your house where a branch circuit > is shared by other outlets with wildly variable > total loads. Too many hot-dog cookers, microwaves, > and pizza ovens plugged in at the same time > may pop a breaker. > > Fuses and breakers intended to supply system > hardware should not be shared with any other > system . . . unless loss of ALL systems is > a low, acceptable risk condition. The founding > philosophy for bus structures with independently > protected feeders is ISOLATION between systems > such that no fault brings down more than the > affected system. > > How much stuff do you plug into the cigar > lighter? On many Cessnas of the 1970 time frame > the cigar lighter was powered through a 20A fuse > and later a 10A breaker. 10A is a LOT of 'stuff' > to run from such a connector > > > > > > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Greenley" <wgreenley(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System
(G3X, GTN, etc)
Date: Jun 16, 2016
The plane is a 1956/57 14V 172, its serial # is 29628 which is supposed to by 1957, but it has some 1956 features like fuel vent on top of the wing. In the years since 1957 someone had replaced the 'cigar' lighter fuse with a 5A circuit breaker, which with a 14v plane is not very many watts. I have the original parts catalogs, but cannot find fuse information in it, and back then the regular manuals were very limited in detail. Bill From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 1:46 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System (G3X, GTN, etc) At 11:25 AM 6/16/2016, you wrote: Thanks for the info, I need to check the wiring et al on mine, it only has a 5A breaker. Which is easy to blow. Just assumed it was correct. Interesting! This is a 14 or 28v airplane? Check your maintenance manual for the factory installed part data . . . the drawing I posted was for a group of 172's. Given that all the single engine products were wired by one electrical group, features in one model tended to ripple across the spectrum of products . . . but that's not a hard/fast rule. If you don't have a manual, give me the s/n of the airplane and I'll see if my 'contacts' can shoot us the drawing. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Greenley" <wgreenley(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System
(G3X, GTN, etc)
Date: Jun 16, 2016
That is my plan, trace all wiring and analyze connections. From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Justin Jones Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 2:10 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System (G3X, GTN, etc) Keep in mind that the circuit breaker needs to be matched to the appropriate wire size. The circuit protection is there to protect the wire, not the load. First assess how much current the load will pull. Then choose an appropriate sized wire and circuit protection. Justin On Jun 16, 2016, at 08:25, William Greenley wrote: Thanks for the info, I need to check the wiring et al on mine, it only has a 5A breaker. Which is easy to blow. Just assumed it was correct. From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 11:54 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System (G3X, GTN, etc) At 08:36 AM 6/16/2016, you wrote: One place on my Cessna I have found a breaker VERY useful is the 12v power port (aka Cigarette lighter). Sometimes items with too big a draw get plugged in and blow the breaker, remove item, reset, and can still use other items in flight. The factory stock 'cigar' lighter? Waaayyyy back when, the folks at the factory decided it was better to call them cigar lighters . . . seems that tobacco smoke particulates were too fine to be captured by the paper air filter for the vacuum driven instruments. We were seeing early demise of gyros flown by pilots who smoked while airborne . . . Somebody got the idea that this problem might be helped if we started calling them cigar lighters . . . fatter smoke particles . . . In any case, your anecdote is the corollary to outlets in your house where a branch circuit is shared by other outlets with wildly variable total loads. Too many hot-dog cookers, microwaves, and pizza ovens plugged in at the same time may pop a breaker. Fuses and breakers intended to supply system hardware should not be shared with any other system . . . unless loss of ALL systems is a low, acceptable risk condition. The founding philosophy for bus structures with independently protected feeders is ISOLATION between systems such that no fault brings down more than the affected system. How much stuff do you plug into the cigar lighter? On many Cessnas of the 1970 time frame the cigar lighter was powered through a 20A fuse and later a 10A breaker. 10A is a LOT of 'stuff' to run from such a connector Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ARGOLDMAN(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 16, 2016
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System
(G3X, ... Or you can use a polyfuse. This will remain open until the fault is cured. Of course when there is a fault, it behooves one to register it so that the problem can be corrected. With the temporary overload, when the offending device is removed, in a very short while, the circuit is once again whole. These are used extensively on car windows since when they reach their physical limit the amperage draw goes up and the circuit breaks (when the window stops at its travel end, it is usually a signal to get your hand off of the switch. If you don't, instead of the wiring burning up, the poly fuse opens. Release the switch the polyfuse will again reconnect and if desired you can put the window up or down as you wish. The polyfuse is available in various amperages and cost less than $1 usually. The polyfuse is a thermally actuated device usually buried where the sun don't shine with no indication of circuit breakage (although you can devise a circuit that tells you). AlthoughI know many EABers who use them exclusively, I still use breakers for critical circuits (although probably overkill). I believe polyfuse is a trademark owned by littlefuse or some such company. Rich In a message dated 6/16/2016 11:28:06 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, wgreenley(at)gmail.com writes: One place on my Cessna I have found a breaker VERY useful is the 12v power port (aka Cigarette lighter). Sometimes items with too big a draw get plugged in and blow the breaker, remove item, reset, and can still use other items in flight. From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 4:11 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System (G3X, GTN, etc) At 02:14 PM 6/14/2016, you wrote: (mailto:fly(at)bappos.com) > OK, I think I see your point on not needing breakers and going with fuses but I'm not 100% there yet. For my personal sense of comfort I'd like to have items on the endurance bus on breakers. Does this seem like a reasonable compromise? Compromise for what? If a breaker ever opens it means something is broke . . . and that something threatens to set a wire on fire. You want to give it a second chance? What items in your airplane are high priority equipment for comfortable termination of flight? From that list of items, how many of them can fail in ways that do not open a breaker? I can tell you that the vast majority of equipment failures never open a breaker . . . if that item is so necessary/useful that you're worried about being able to reclose a breaker, then you'd better have a plan-b . . . a back up for when the system decides to take a vacation. It allows me to load-shed even further by pulling breakers if needed and uses much fewer breakers and panel space. Thoughts? Load shed? What's the e-bus for? The LAST thing you should be doing in flight is running any kind of mental gymnastics calculated to reduce risks of dealing with some kind of failure. ALL such things are done at THIS phase of your design and fabrication. Should a necessary item go T.U. then you go to plan-b. If the item is not necessary, then there is no plan-B. The idea behind the e-bus is to do a two-switch load shed that either (1) does not overtax an SD-8 or (2) produces a KNOWN endurance value running battery only based on periodic capacity checks of your battery. Messing with any breaker or fuse in flight is a demonstration of poor planning that should have been managed during THIS phase of your project's development. Put the fuse blocks out of sight and out of mind. Deal with system difficulties as a pilot with a plan . . . not an in-flight diagnostician and maintenance technician. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical
System (G3X, GTN, etc) At 01:32 PM 6/16/2016, you wrote: >The plane is a 1956/57 14V 172, its serial # is 29628 which is >supposed to by 1957, but it has some 1956 features like fuel vent on >top of the wing. In the years since 1957 someone had replaced the >'cigar' lighter fuse with a 5A circuit breaker, which with a 14v >plane is not very many watts. I have the original parts catalogs, >but cannot find fuse information in it, and back then the regular >manuals were very limited in detail. Yeah . . . my tour of duty didn't begin for another 8 years. Lots of changes took place on documentation. Did this airplane originally have all fuses on the bus . . . with holders that look like this? Emacs! They were already using breakers by the time I got there but I don't recall when the change took place. Your breaker protected cigar lighter may well be an after-market mod . . . in which case you're not on really thin ice to simply replace the breaker with a 10A device and insure that connecting wires are 18AWG or larger. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System
(G3X, ... At 01:41 PM 6/16/2016, you wrote: >Or you can use a polyfuse. This will remain open until the fault is cured. > >Of course when there is a fault, it behooves one to register it so >that the problem can be corrected. Problem with Polyfuses is how do you mount them in an airplane? They have to be free to get hot . . . that's what triggers their current reduction behavior. They're designed to solder onto an etched circuit board. http://tinyurl.com/zevs7xy Mounting them in a mechanically robust configuration while letting the body of the device hang out in the breeze is problematic. I was tasked twice to look at Polyfuses at Beech over the years . . . they just didn't lend themselves to airframe integration. Inside some black box was okay . . . but we just couldn't figure a way to use them economically on the bus structures. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 2016
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System
(G3X, GTN, etc)
From: William Greenley <wgreenley(at)gmail.com>
That is exactly what the fuse holders look like, and yes the cb looks lik a later mod. On Jun 16, 2016 4:26 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 01:32 PM 6/16/2016, you wrote: > > The plane is a 1956/57 14V 172, its serial # is 29628 which is supposed t o > by 1957, but it has some 1956 features like fuel vent on top of the wing. > In the years since 1957 someone had replaced the =98cigar=99 lighter fuse with > a 5A circuit breaker, which with a 14v plane is not very many watts. I ha ve > the original parts catalogs, but cannot find fuse information in it, and > back then the regular manuals were very limited in detail. > > > Yeah . . . my tour of duty didn't begin > for another 8 years. Lots of changes took > place on documentation. > > Did this airplane originally have all fuses > on the bus . . . with holders that look like > this? > > > [image: Emacs!] > > They were already using breakers by the time > I got there but I don't recall when the change > took place. Your breaker protected cigar lighter > may well be an after-market mod . . . in which > case you're not on really thin ice to simply > replace the breaker with a 10A device and insure > that connecting wires are 18AWG or larger. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ARGOLDMAN(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 16, 2016
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System
(G3X... yep make a small PC board with leads coming out. Heat shrink for protection (just small enough to protect and not crush Rich In a message dated 6/16/2016 1:32:16 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com writes: At 01:41 PM 6/16/2016, you wrote: Or you can use a polyfuse. This will remain open until the fault is cured. Of course when there is a fault, it behooves one to register it so that the problem can be corrected. Problem with Polyfuses is how do you mount them in an airplane? They have to be free to get hot . . . that's what triggers their current reduction behavior. They're designed to solder onto an etched circuit board. _http://tinyurl.com/zevs7xy _ (http://tinyurl.com/zevs7xy) Mounting them in a mechanically robust configuration while letting the body of the device hang out in the breeze is problematic. I was tasked twice to look at Polyfuses at Beech over the years . . . they just didn't lend themselves to airframe integration. Inside some black box was okay . . . but we just couldn't figure a way to use them economically on the bus structures. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System
(G3X, GTN, etc) At 03:41 PM 6/16/2016, you wrote: >That is exactly what the fuse holders look like, and yes the cb >looks lik a later mod. shucks, you're home free. upsize the breaker and wire as appropriate. we'll never tell. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Review request for RV-9 Electrical System
(G3X... At 05:46 PM 6/16/2016, you wrote: >yep make a small PC board with leads coming out. Heat shrink for >protection (just small enough to protect and not crush But if you 'touch' the sides of the Polyfuse in any way, it takes heat out causing dissipation requirements for transition to 'tripped' to go up. Cool them off very much and they self-destruct never transition and will self destruct. You can't glue them down for vibration resistance. I poked around on Digikey and found this new kid on the PolySwitch block . . . http://tinyurl.com/he3j2jp Emacs! Seems to fit into the standard Mini-ATC fuse holder. Only found the one size. Will carry 8A at 25C but takes as much as 8 seconds at at 40A . . . REALLY slow even for a 10A thermal breaker. I've used these things in surface mount versions to protect ECB traces at sub-amp trips . . . but I don't see that they're yet ready for prime time in power distribution. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Franz Fux" <franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com>
Subject: Wrong email address - Re-send pls
Date: Jun 17, 2016
I will no longer be checking franz(at)lastfrontierheli.com due to excessive and uncontrollable spam. Please re-send your email to my new address: franz.fux(at)lastfrontierheli.com and make a note of it for the future. Apologies for the inconvenience, Franz Fux Last Frontier Heliskiing - Go Beyond www.lastfrontierheli.com --- Head Office: PO Box 1237, Vernon, BC V1T 6N6, CANADA Tel: 250 558 7980 Fax: 250 558 7981 Reservations: 1-888-655-5566 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com>
Subject: Problem with starting
Date: Jun 17, 2016
Fresh on the heels of asking for help with the low bus voltage with the engine running in my C182, I now have an issue with intermittent cranking on start. Symptoms: About 5 times out of 10 turning the key switch to start elicits no prop movement. Not even a tiny bit. The other times the cranking is healthy. During a no-turn start, I can hear the starter contactor oscillate on/off at about 5Hz, the bus voltage drops to 6 volts or below, and after a few seconds the earth braid from the battery to the fuselage gets warm/hot to touch. Yesterday I had the alternator overhauled, and replaced: no change in behaviour. Sometimes it cranks well 10 times in a row, sometimes it fails to turn, 10 times in a row. After a few trial starts today the battery was dead. So I gave it an external charge 20A for an hour. The next start failed. The one after that was fine, then it went sulky and failed a few times. Twice in maybe 40 trial starts (been working on this at various times over two days now) the main (battery) contactor has remained shut and I have been unable to shut off the power by turning off the master switch. The second time this happened I gently tapped the battery contactor with a rubber tool and the contact was successfully broken. I have now replaced this contactor. I imagine this stuck-on behaviour is because the contact has tried to open due to low coil voltage and welded itself shut because of an overcurrent condition. Twice overall I have seen it enter this failure mode during cranking and while the prop is turning: the prop stops and bounces back against the cylinder compression, the bus voltage drops out and the contactor starts to buzz. This is all consistent with a dead short either in, or downstream of the starter contactor. I would be looking very hard at the starter motor, but I've already had this overhauled, new springs, brushes etc., just yesterday. Has anyone seen a failure like this in their experience? Anywhere else I could look? It's really a very simple circuit and it must be drawing several hundred amps somewhere... ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Problem with starting
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: Jun 17, 2016
Most likely your battery is on its last legs, or it has not achieved a full charge. After being charged, and sitting overnight, the battery resting voltage should be at least 12.7. If it is closer to 12.5, the battery is either weak or didn't get fully charged. You could do, or have done a capacity check. On 6/17/2016 1:44 PM, Alec Myers wrote: > > Fresh on the heels of asking for help with the low bus voltage with the engine running in my C182, I now have an issue with intermittent cranking on start. > > Symptoms: > > About 5 times out of 10 turning the key switch to start elicits no prop movement. Not even a tiny bit. The other times the cranking is healthy. > > During a no-turn start, I can hear the starter contactor oscillate on/off at about 5Hz, the bus voltage drops to 6 volts or below, and after a few seconds the earth braid from the battery to the fuselage gets warm/hot to touch. > > Yesterday I had the alternator overhauled, and replaced: no change in behaviour. Sometimes it cranks well 10 times in a row, sometimes it fails to turn, 10 times in a row. > > After a few trial starts today the battery was dead. So I gave it an external charge 20A for an hour. The next start failed. The one after that was fine, then it went sulky and failed a few times. > > Twice in maybe 40 trial starts (been working on this at various times over two days now) the main (battery) contactor has remained shut and I have been unable to shut off the power by turning off the master switch. The second time this happened I gently tapped the battery contactor with a rubber tool and the contact was successfully broken. I have now replaced this contactor. I imagine


May 22, 2016 - June 17, 2016

AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-nf