AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-nn

August 10, 2016 - September 21, 2016



      It is indeed a bandaid, but perhaps not a complete loss. 75 ohms at 
      12.5v is less than 2/10 of an amp. I can afford that. The problem that I 
      have with it is it didn't work to make the flasher cycle. I think I'll 
      try paralleling 2 of them. That will cost me about a third of an amp. 
      Little enough if it makes the circuit work right. I'll still be at less 
      than half of the 8 amps that 100w halogens would pull.
      
      Got a part number for the correct LED flasher? The one's I've been 
      looking at need switched power to them or they will constantly flash. 
      Not impossible to manage, but it means a revision of the wiring and 
      switching at best and an additional switch at worst. Since I've already 
      silk screened my panel, I'd like to avoid that.
      
      Ed
      
      On 8/9/2016 9:15 PM, Lyle Peterson wrote:
      > 
      >
      > There are flashers specifically for LED lights  that will operate with
      > the light (no pun intended) load of LEDs.  They are used on cars and
      > motorcycles, particularly when incandescent lamps are replaced with LEDs.
      >
      > One of the reasons for installing LEDs is that they draw much less
      > current.  Another is that the run very cool.  Adding a resistor across
      > them defeats the purposes and the advantage is gone.  The resistor has
      > to sink the current that an incandescent bulb would draw.  This creates
      > heat just as it does when the incandescent bulb is lit.
      >
      > I consider the resistor to be a jury rigged cure that is best dealt with
      > by using the correct components.
      >
      > Lyle
      >
      >
      > On 8/9/2016 10:53 PM, user9253 wrote:
      >>
      >> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/WigWag/WigWag.pdf
      >>
      >> --------
      >> Joe Gores
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Read this topic online here:
      >>
      >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459415#459415
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wig Wag difficulties
From: Ed <decaclops(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 10, 2016
Thanks, Joe. Page 5.0 is the drawing I emulated, along with the resistors shown on the last page. I'm wired exactly as drawn and it's not working as it should. I'm thinking about trying parallel resistors to have 37.5 ohms across the lights. Maybe that will do it. Ed On 8/9/2016 8:53 PM, user9253 wrote: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/WigWag/WigWag.pdf > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459415#459415 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wig Wag difficulties
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Aug 10, 2016
I still sell my wig wags by the boatload. They require no load resistor and work on everything (almost). Not the cheapest, but they are guaranteed forever if I can manage it. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459430#459430 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wig Wag difficulties
From: Ed <decaclops(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 10, 2016
To update where I'm at - I paralleled two 75 ohm, 5w resistors on each light and got solid flashing for the 20 minutes that I tested it. The resistors are too hot to grip between fingers but not too hot to touch lightly. I calc about .33A loss and about 4.16 watts. I might try some 50 ohm, 10w resistors which should save me a tenth of an amp and run slightly cooler. Ed ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2016
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Wig Wag difficulties
Look at the bright side, Ed.=C2- As your alternator fails and your batter y voltage goes down, your Gube Roldberg (I'm dyslexic) two resistor impleme ntation will suck in less current to dissipate less vital battery energy. =C2- There is a reason for LED lighting other than reliability - they use less power (energy).=C2- Why not do the right thing and replace that wig wagger with something that works with less current flowing through it, e.g . Eric Jones' wig wagger?=C2- It sounds like a brighter idea than power d issipating resistors giving off invisible infrared photons.=C2- I don't m ean to speak for Eric, but maybe he can ship you a unit to test drive.=C2 - If it works, great; if it doesn't, you ship it back.=C2-Henador Titzo ff From: Ed <decaclops(at)gmail.com> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 2:09 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wig Wag difficulties To update where I'm at - I paralleled two 75 ohm, 5w resistors on each light and got solid flashing for the 20 minutes that I tested it. The resistors are too hot to grip between fingers but not too hot to touch lightly. I calc about .33A loss and about 4.16 watts. I might try some 50 ohm, 10w resistors which should save me a tenth of an amp and run slightly cooler. Ed - S - WIKI - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Wig Wag difficulties
>Adding a resistor across them defeats the >purposes and the advantage is gone. . . . by how much? > your Gube Roldberg (I'm dyslexic) two resistor > implementation will suck in less current . . Incandescent lamps were king When that flasher was first applied to OBAM aircraft, further, the lowest cost solution for fabricating a useful wig-wag installation was realized by incorporating an automotive, 3-terminal flasher. Given that three terminals are quickly used up with two lamp outputs and one power input. For the internals of this flasher to function, it needed to seek a power ground through the OFF side lamp. This philosophy worked well in cars for decades before flying a few decades more in airplanes. When builders began the transition to LED populated fixtures, it seems that the legacy flasher technology was unable to secure a operable ground through the newer lamp technology. The first design goal was to offer a means by which existing incandescent installations could be converted to LED with a minimum of cost . . . and power 'wasted'. Experiments conducted in our shop and on some airplanes showed that the added resistors would allow a quick and easy transition to LED. 75 ohms paralleled with the fixtures I had access to appeared to be a good compromise while adding only 0.2 amps to system loads in the wig-wag mode. Yes, they run too hot to touch . . . so do battery contactors . . . There were, and stall are, plans for replacing the automotive flasher . . . but if the flasher is not performing as needed in a new installation, there has to be an explanation . . . which would be interesting to know. Had anyone offered an "LED compatible" wig-wag flasher in a neat little box with the resistors built in, few if any consumers would be aware of them . . . and probably not inclined to speak of them in pejoratives. To be sure, there are more efficient alternatives in new hardware . . . at a price in dollars (and perhaps labor to make a change-out). The notion that the resistors represent a significant 'waste' during battery only operations begs the question as to what the total endurance loads look like . . . I suggest that if one even chooses to run wig-wag in a battery only endurance mode . . . the resistor losses are insignificant. I'd like to think this forum is the place where designs are explored and decisions made on an analysis of measurements, outcome of experiment and a quest for achieving design goals . . . throwing sand and spit-balls is not helpful. Let's be good shepherd of electrons and see if we can figure out why this one system is not working as expected when hundreds of similar systems have been flying for years. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Wig Wag difficulties
At 01:09 PM 8/10/2016, you wrote: > >To update where I'm at - I paralleled two 75 ohm, 5w resistors on >each light and got solid flashing for the 20 minutes that I tested >it. The resistors are too hot to grip between fingers but not too >hot to touch lightly. I calc about .33A loss and about 4.16 watts. I >might try some 50 ohm, 10w resistors which should save me a tenth of >an amp and run slightly cooler. A power resistor running at rated dissipation will sizzle-spit . . . over 100C surface temperature. They just do that. Your experiment suggests that the flasher in hand is a bit more demanding of a low- as-practical resistance to ground on the OFF lamp. I've had a couple builders use resistors much like this http://tinyurl.com/jroz29g while rated at many more watts . . . if not mounted to a heat sinking surface, it too would be too hot to touch. The handy thing about these guys is that they're easy to mount on metal surface that sharply reduces their operating surface temperature. And . . . of course . . . you can change out the flasher for one more specific to the application. I've opened several versions of those devices. One particular model was easily converted to a 4-wire device by cutting a trace on the board and soldering on a ground wire to bring out of the case. Then the need for 'grounding resistors' goes away. But if the externally added resistors is not a source of heartburn, then I suspect the devices cited above will do the job . . . and the price is right. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wig Wag difficulties
From: Ed <decaclops(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 11, 2016
Howdy Bob, It behaved the same with two different flashers, both EL 13A-2, one Tridon brand the other Novita which appears to be the follow on to Tridon. Maybe 75 ohms would work at 14.4v, but I'm testing in the garage at more like 12.6 with a power supply supporting a battery. When cold, it would sometimes flash for a few and then stop. My guess is that the resistance went up with heat and the current was reduced below the threshold that the flasher would work with. The mountable and heat sinked resistors seem like a good idea. Better than zip tying a hot resistor to the wires for sure. I am not worried about .3A as long as the alternator is running. If it is offline, so will be my main buss and the exterior lighting. My load analysis shows me at 26.4A for night VFR while wigwaging. That's 66% of my 40A alternator capacity. When I designed and built my electrical system, I was planning to use 100w halogens as I have in my other airplane. I've dropped at least 4 amps with the LEDs. I'm also going with LED position/strobe lights for an additional current and weight savings of around 9 amps and 2 1/2 pounds. Ed On 8/10/2016 8:17 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 01:09 PM 8/10/2016, you wrote: >> >> To update where I'm at - I paralleled two 75 ohm, 5w resistors on each >> light and got solid flashing for the 20 minutes that I tested it. The >> resistors are too hot to grip between fingers but not too hot to touch >> lightly. I calc about .33A loss and about 4.16 watts. I might try some >> 50 ohm, 10w resistors which should save me a tenth of an amp and run >> slightly cooler. > > A power resistor running at rated dissipation > will sizzle-spit . . . over 100C surface > temperature. They just do that. > > Your experiment suggests that the flasher > in hand is a bit more demanding of a low- > as-practical resistance to ground on the > OFF lamp. > > I've had a couple builders use resistors > much like this > > *http://tinyurl.com/jroz29g* > > while rated at many more watts . . . if > not mounted to a heat sinking surface, > it too would be too hot to touch. The > handy thing about these guys is that > they're easy to mount on metal surface > that sharply reduces their operating > surface temperature. > > And . . . of course . . . you can change > out the flasher for one more specific > to the application. > > I've opened several versions of those > devices. One particular model was easily > converted to a 4-wire device by cutting > a trace on the board and soldering > on a ground wire to bring out of the case. > > Then the need for 'grounding resistors' > goes away. But if the externally added > resistors is not a source of heartburn, > then I suspect the devices cited above > will do the job . . . and the price is > right. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Wig Wag difficulties
At 11:05 AM 8/11/2016, you wrote: > >Howdy Bob, > >It behaved the same with two different flashers, both EL 13A-2, one >Tridon brand the other Novita which appears to be the follow on to >Tridon. Maybe 75 ohms would work at 14.4v, but I'm testing in the >garage at more like 12.6 with a power supply supporting a battery. >When cold, it would sometimes flash for a few and then stop. My >guess is that the resistance went up with heat and the current was >reduced below the threshold that the flasher would work with. > >The mountable and heat sinked resistors seem like a good idea. >Better than zip tying a hot resistor to the wires for sure. > >I am not worried about .3A as long as the alternator is running. If >it is offline, so will be my main buss and the exterior lighting. My >load analysis shows me at 26.4A for night VFR while wigwaging. >That's 66% of my 40A alternator capacity. When I designed and built >my electrical system, I was planning to use 100w halogens as I have >in my other airplane. I've dropped at least 4 amps with the LEDs. >I'm also going with LED position/strobe lights for an additional >current and weight savings of around 9 amps and 2 1/2 pounds. > >Ed Good moves. Why would you run wig-wags with an off-line alternator? First, such an occurrence is rare. When it does occur, the design goal is NOT to run everything including the kitchen sink . . . but to keep really USEFUL things running until the airport of INTENDED DESTINATION is in sight. In the earliest days of the implementation of an e-bus, EN ROUTE operating loads were often reduced to 3 amps or less. Certainly, running any form of exterior lighting does not improve significantly on your probability of comfortable termination of flight. Adding the SD-8 in Z-13/8 was a quantum jump in options for EN ROUTE energy consumption. A Plan-B could consider continuous consumption of 8A or more . . . with total independence on the battery's contained energy. Once the airport was in sight, you could fire up everything, kitchen sink and all, for descent and approach to landing. The through process in this particular Failure Modes Effects Analysis is to deduce electrical demands for sustained flight sans main alternator. For myself, the design goal would be to sustain useful/ necessary electro-whizzies, battery only for duration of fuel aboard. I.e. your ELECTRICAL endurance should be equal to or greater than FUEL endurance. In no scenario can I imagine that exterior lighting of any kind is a significant factor in the equation for comfortable termination of flight at airport of intended destination. Back when LongEz was king, a nav/com, transponder, turn-coordinator and minimal panel lighting was easily power up for 4 hours or more by a rather small battery. Your own demands for comfortable EN ROUTE operations without a main alternator are undoubtedly different. It's a good thing to KNOW what they are and then design for meeting those demands for what ever ENDURANCE value you choose . . . perhaps an hour is okay in your book . . . but 3+ hours would not be a bad thing. Energy consumption for exterior lighting doesn't figure into that consideration. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wig Wag difficulties
From: Ed <decaclops(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 11, 2016
Howdy Bob, Yeah, I had an alternator fail in our 6A and just kept going. I had cap checked the RG-25 battery at the most recent annual using a 4 amp load with a West Mountain Radio CBA, and got 8 hours out of it to 10.5v so I knew that the situation wasn't critical. We flew on for a couple of hours, landed for gas, and flew another hour and a half to our intended destination. Replaced the alternator the next day and still had plenty of pop in the battery for engine start. My new plane will pull a little over 6 amps at minimum load with 2 electronic ignitions, another 2 amps if I don't kill the MFD. I have two PC680s which I will cap check before I fly and at each annual so I will know my endurance. I can power the E-bus with either or both batteries so I can run one and hold the other in reserve if I so choose. Using the Odyssey discharge charts, I'm reading about 5 hrs. endurance, if I'm careful. I may still put on an SD-8 for belt and suspenders. Ed On 8/11/2016 5:58 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 11:05 AM 8/11/2016, you wrote: >> > > > Good moves. Why would you run wig-wags with > an off-line alternator? > > First, such an occurrence is rare. > > When it does occur, the design goal is > NOT to run everything including the kitchen > sink . . . but to keep really USEFUL things > running until the airport of INTENDED DESTINATION > is in sight. In the earliest days of the implementation > of an e-bus, EN ROUTE operating loads were often > reduced to 3 amps or less. > > Certainly, running any form of exterior lighting > does not improve significantly on your probability > of comfortable termination of flight. > > Adding the SD-8 in Z-13/8 was a quantum jump > in options for EN ROUTE energy consumption. A > Plan-B could consider continuous consumption > of 8A or more . . . with total independence > on the battery's contained energy. > > Once the airport was in sight, you could > fire up everything, kitchen sink and all, > for descent and approach to landing. > > The through process in this particular > Failure Modes Effects Analysis is to deduce > electrical demands for sustained flight > sans main alternator. For myself, the > design goal would be to sustain useful/ > necessary electro-whizzies, battery only > for duration of fuel aboard. > > I.e. your ELECTRICAL endurance should be > equal to or greater than FUEL endurance. > In no scenario can I imagine that exterior > lighting of any kind is a significant factor > in the equation for comfortable termination > of flight at airport of intended destination. > > Back when LongEz was king, a nav/com, transponder, > turn-coordinator and minimal panel lighting > was easily power up for 4 hours or more by > a rather small battery. > > Your own demands for comfortable EN ROUTE > operations without a main alternator are > undoubtedly different. It's a good thing > to KNOW what they are and then design > for meeting those demands for what ever > ENDURANCE value you choose . . . perhaps > an hour is okay in your book . . . but 3+ > hours would not be a bad thing. > > Energy consumption for exterior lighting > doesn't figure into that consideration. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Aug 12, 2016
Subject: Z-12 Questions
Folks, I am looking at diagram Z-12 (rev. M, 12/28/05) and have a couple of questions: Why are there separate instrument panel and avionics ground buses? Where are the notes? Thank you, -- Art Z. -- http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-12 Questions
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 12, 2016
The notes can be found in Appendix Z of Bob's book. The book is available for free download in PDF format. http://www.aeroelectric.com/Book/AEC_R12A.pdf or paper version https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/pub/pub.html#P-Book -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459470#459470 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-12 Questions
From: Ed <decaclops(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 12, 2016
Howdy Art, Note 23 is on page Z11 of the Appendix Z pdf file. It refers to chapter 18 of the Aeroelectric Connection where the concept is introduced. You can obtain Revision 12A from: http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/pub/pub.html There is a "click here" for free download if you don't need to purchase the book or CD. Ed Holyoke On 8/12/2016 5:15 AM, Art Zemon wrote: > Folks, > > I am looking at diagram Z-12 (rev. M, 12/28/05) and have a couple of > questions: > > Why are there separate instrument panel and avionics ground buses? > > Where are the notes? > > Thank you, > -- Art Z. > > -- > http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, > what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Aug 12, 2016
Subject: Re: Z-12 Questions
Thank, Joe. I have the book. I'll go find appendix Z. -- Art Z. On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 9:29 AM, user9253 wrote: > > The notes can be found in Appendix Z of Bob's book. The book is available > for free download in PDF format. > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Book/AEC_R12A.pdf > or paper version > https://matronics.com/aeroelectric/Catalog/pub/pub.html#P-Book > -- http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: GEMS Sensor Solenoids
From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net>
Date: Aug 12, 2016
I have an application for solenoid valves on my Glasair and got an Ebay deal on some 24v valves. My ship power is 12v so I got some 12v solenoids from GEMS Sensors. But the minimum was 5 units so I now have 2 24v and 3 12v solenoids for B and C series valves that I don't need. Maybe you do :) Email me jonlauryATimpulse.net John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459475#459475 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
Date: Aug 12, 2016
Subject: AEC 9005 Indicates Low Voltage, Perhaps Erroneously?
Flying today everything was normal, except that the low voltage light started to blink intermittently, then constantly. The Dynon D180 voltage indication was in the high 13 range, which isn't uncommon. It's usually in the 13.7-14.3 range, and the light has never come on with the engine running before. Is there a failure mode of the AEC 9005 that would cause it to indicate a low voltage so much higher than the intended 13, or should I believe the 9005 and suspect the D180? In all other cases the Dynon indications seem to be about right. The primary alternator is a Plane Power AL12-EI60/C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: AEC 9005 Indicates Low Voltage, Perhaps Erroneously?
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 12, 2016
It is unlikely that the D-180 is reporting the wrong voltage. Suspect a poor electrical connection to the AEC 9005. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459478#459478 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AEC 9005 Indicates Low Voltage, Perhaps Erroneously?
At 04:33 PM 8/12/2016, you wrote: >Flying today everything was normal, except that >the low voltage light started to blink >intermittently, then constantly. The Dynon D180 >voltage indication was in the high 13 range, >which isn't uncommon. It's usually in the >13.7-14.3 range, and the light has never come on >with the engine running before. Is there a >failure mode of the AEC 9005 that would cause it >to indicate a low voltage so much higher than >the intended 13, or should I believe the 9005 >and suspect the D180? In all other cases the >Dynon indications seem to be about right. The >primary alternator is a Plane Power=C2 AL12-EI60/C. This is difficult to diagnose without measurements. All AEC products have lifetime warranty. If you would priority mail your module to me, I'll check it on the acceptance test fixture, evaluate its performance and return it to you with any necessary repairs in place. We don't often get a chance to evaluate fielded products. I'd be pleased to assist by checking off at least one box in the troubleshooting process. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
Date: Aug 13, 2016
Subject: Re: AEC 9005 Indicates Low Voltage, Perhaps Erroneously?
Thanks Bob, I'll see if I can measure voltage at the incoming pin as to isolate the wiring from the device. If the voltage there is on par with the Dynon indication, I'll send the unit over. On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 1:21 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 04:33 PM 8/12/2016, you wrote: > > Flying today everything was normal, except that the low voltage light > started to blink intermittently, then constantly. The Dynon D180 voltage > indication was in the high 13 range, which isn't uncommon. It's usually i n > the 13.7-14.3 range, and the light has never come on with the engine > running before. Is there a failure mode of the AEC 9005 that would cause it > to indicate a low voltage so much higher than the intended 13, or should I > believe the 9005 and suspect the D180? In all other cases the Dynon > indications seem to be about right. The primary alternator is a Plane > Power=C3=82 AL12-EI60/C. > > > This is difficult to diagnose without > measurements. > > All AEC products have lifetime warranty. > If you would priority mail your module > to me, I'll check it on the acceptance test > fixture, evaluate its performance and > return it to you with any necessary > repairs in place. > > We don't often get a chance to evaluate > fielded products. I'd be pleased to assist > by checking off at least one box in the > troubleshooting process. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Battery/ Starter cables
From: "chris Sinfield" <chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au>
Date: Aug 14, 2016
Guys just got my Spruce order sent down under.. You don't what to know the shipping price. Anyway I ordered some colored battery wire thinking it was 4awg and find out its 6 awg. How critical is the difference given that the piper sport is wired 6awg and my aircraft is a simple vfr Dynon with a Jab 3300. All bobs drawings have 4 AWG but my limited understanding thinks 6 would do the job. What do you all think.? Battery , master sol , start sol to starter? Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459489#459489 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery/ Starter cables
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 14, 2016
Go ahead and try it. If the engine cranks OK, 6 AWG is good enough. If not, try some larger welding cable, especially for longer distances. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459490#459490 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 14, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery/ Starter cables
At 02:22 AM 8/14/2016, you wrote: > > >Guys just got my Spruce order sent down under.. You don't what to >know the shipping price. >Anyway I ordered some colored battery wire thinking it was 4awg and >find out its 6 awg. > > How critical is the difference given that the piper sport is > wired 6awg and my aircraft is a simple vfr Dynon with a Jab 3300. > All bobs drawings have 4 AWG but my limited understanding thinks 6 > would do the job. > >What do you all think.? Battery , master sol , start sol to starter? >Chris If you measured all the 6AWG wires and added them up, what's the total? 6AWG is 0.4 milliohms/foot or 40mv/ft voltage drop at 100A. So something like 5' of loop-length in a 6AWG cranking circuit would drop 0.200 volts. Not a serious loss. Longer paths, cold temps, higher currents would have different conditions but not by much. You're probably fine. BTW, welding cable is fine wire for cranking circuits and you can probably get that stuff locallly. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery/ Starter cables
From: "chris Sinfield" <chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au>
Date: Aug 14, 2016
Thanks Bob. When I looked at length it was no longer than 3 feet battery to starter motor. All your drawings had 4AWG not sure why that was and so I just had to ask. Chris. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459492#459492 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery/ Starter cables
From: "chris Sinfield" <chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au>
Date: Aug 14, 2016
Thanks Bob. When I looked at length it was no longer than 3 feet battery to starter motor. All your drawings had 4AWG not sure why that was and so I just had to ask. Chris. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459493#459493 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: ADSB annunciator and AC 20-165B
From: "eschlanser" <eschlanser(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Aug 19, 2016
I'm finishing the installation of a Navworx ADS600B in my already flying ABAM plane. The installation is finished except for an ADSB annunciator. Per AC 20-165B para 3.7.2.1, "For legacy mode C installations that are adding a UAT device, the following two failure annunciations are optional" and are listed as ADS-B Device Failure and Function Failure. Of course, there is more verbiage that is confusing me as it refers to initial airworthiness certification (STC or TC). The good folks at Navworx seem to have left for the weekend so my call to them went unanswered. Does anyone here know if an annunciator for status failures of the Navworx ADS600B are a required part of the installation? Eric Schlanser South Haven, MI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459663#459663 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: ADSB annunciator and AC 20-165B
Date: Aug 19, 2016
I didn't put them in my 6A.... I couldn't find anything the stated 'required'...plenty that said 'optional'. My .02 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of eschlanser Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 5:16 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: ADSB annunciator and AC 20-165B --> I'm finishing the installation of a Navworx ADS600B in my already flying ABAM plane. The installation is finished except for an ADSB annunciator. Per AC 20-165B para 3.7.2.1, "For legacy mode C installations that are adding a UAT device, the following two failure annunciations are optional" and are listed as ADS-B Device Failure and Function Failure. Of course, there is more verbiage that is confusing me as it refers to initial airworthiness certification (STC or TC). The good folks at Navworx seem to have left for the weekend so my call to them went unanswered. Does anyone here know if an annunciator for status failures of the Navworx ADS600B are a required part of the installation? Eric Schlanser South Haven, MI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459663#459663 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 20, 2016
Subject: Voltage drop
I was doing some checks on my RV8 electrical system that I just finished a few weeks ago. This is a brand new plane under construction. Before I fired up any of the Garmin G3x stuff, I tested the usual systems , starter , fuel pump lights etc. all seemed to work fine. I fired up the G3x and it also come on line with no problems. Yesterday I had everything on line and tested the starter again. When the starter turned all my other electronics died. As soon as the starter stopped they came back on. It appears that the current draw from the starter took the voltage available to the other Items so low they shut down ( most of the G3X stuff shuts down below 11 volts or so). I have a new odyssey battery 680 and it appears to be charged. Here are my questions. 1. Battery solenoid gets warm with the battery master on. Is this normal? 2. Could this be a battery issue? 3. What test can I perform on the solenoid, battery etc. ? Thanks ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Voltage drop
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 20, 2016
Everything that you described sounds normal to me. Check out Bob's Z-10/8 electrical drawing with a brownout battery. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459684#459684 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 20, 2016
Subject: Re: Voltage drop
The contactor normally gets a little warm--no worries there. Your battery is probably just fine. My 925 does the same thing. You'll need some kind of back-up battery to prevent what you're describing. I use one from TCW that works great. --Dave On Saturday, August 20, 2016, Michael Lazarowicz wrote: > I was doing some checks on my RV8 electrical system that I just finished a > few weeks ago. This is a brand new plane under construction. Before I fired > up any of the Garmin G3x stuff, I tested the usual systems , starter , fuel > pump lights etc. all seemed to work fine. I fired up the G3x and it also > come on line with no problems. > > Yesterday I had everything on line and tested the starter again. When the > starter turned all my other electronics died. As soon as the starter > stopped they came back on. It appears that the current draw from the > starter took the voltage available to the other Items so low they shut down > ( most of the G3X stuff shuts down below 11 volts or so). I have a new > odyssey battery 680 and it appears to be charged. Here are my questions. > > 1. Battery solenoid gets warm with the battery master on. Is this normal? > > 2. Could this be a battery issue? > > 3. What test can I perform on the solenoid, battery etc. ? > > Thanks > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Frederic Stucklen" <wstucklen1(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: ADSB annunciator and AC 20-165BADSB annunciator
and AC 20-165B
Date: Aug 20, 2016
Hi, I put one into my RV-7A on the ADS600-EXP unit because the early software would fail if the GPS signal was lost (after doing a roll) and was never re-acquired.. The warning light would and Would come ON and stay ON, indicating an ADS-B function failure. More recent versions of the Software appear to have solved that issue. Fred Stucklen RV-7A N924RV 1298 Hrs. I didn't put them in my 6A.... I couldn't find anything the stated 'required'...plenty that said 'optional'. My .02 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of eschlanser Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 5:16 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: ADSB annunciator and AC 20-165B --> I'm finishing the installation of a Navworx ADS600B in my already flying ABAM plane. The installation is finished except for an ADSB annunciator. Per AC 20-165B para 3.7.2.1, "For legacy mode C installations that are adding a UAT device, the following two failure annunciations are optional" and are listed as ADS-B Device Failure and Function Failure. Of course, there is more verbiage that is confusing me as it refers to initial airworthiness certification (STC or TC). The good folks at Navworx seem to have left for the weekend so my call to them went unanswered. Does anyone here know if an annunciator for status failures of the Navworx ADS600B are a required part of the installation? Eric Schlanser South Haven, MI ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ADSB annunciator and AC 20-165BADSB annunciator
and AC 20-165B
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: Aug 20, 2016
Keep in mind that the FAA has not issued any guidance(that I am aware of) at all for certification of ADS-B equipment installed in experimental aircraft. All of the guidance assumes a certified aircraft. So you take your best effort with regards to compliance and recognize something may need to change down the road. On 8/20/2016 10:15 AM, Frederic Stucklen wrote: > Hi, > > > I put one into my RV-7A on the ADS600-EXP unit because the early > software would fail if the > > GPS signal was lost (after doing a roll) and was never re-acquired. > The warning light would and > > Would come ON and stay ON, indicating an ADS-B function failure. More > recent versions of the > > Software appear to have solved that issue > > > Fred Stucklen > > RV-7A N924RV 1298 Hrs. > > > *I didn't put them in my 6A....* > > * * > > * I couldn't find anything the stated 'required'...plenty that said* > > * 'optional'.* > > * * > > * My .02* > > * * > > * * > > * -----Original Message-----* > > * From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > * > > * [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] > On Behalf Of* > > * eschlanser* > > * Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 5:16 PM* > > * Subject: AeroElectric-List: ADSB annunciator and AC 20-165B* > > * * > > * --> >* > > * * > > * I'm finishing the installation of a Navworx ADS600B in my already > flying* > > * ABAM plane.* > > * * > > * The installation is finished except for an ADSB annunciator. Per > AC 20-165B* > > * para 3.7.2.1, "For legacy mode C installations that are adding a > UAT device,* > > * the following two failure annunciations are optional" and are > listed as* > > * ADS-B Device Failure and Function Failure. * > > * * > > * Of course, there is more verbiage that is confusing me as it > refers to* > > * initial airworthiness certification (STC or TC).* > > * * > > * The good folks at Navworx seem to have left for the weekend so my > call to* > > * them went unanswered. Does anyone here know if an annunciator for > status* > > * failures of the Navworx ADS600B are a required part of the > installation? * > > * * > > * Eric Schlanser* > > * South Haven, MI* > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 20, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Voltage drop
> >Yesterday I had everything on line and tested the starter again. >When the starter turned all my other electronics died. As soon as >the starter stopped they came back on. It appears that the current >draw from the starter took the voltage available to the other Items >so low they shut down ( most of the G3X stuff shuts down below 11 >volts or so). I have a new odyssey battery 680 and it appears to be charged. What engine, alternator and battery combination? >Here are my questions. Your battery is either (1) not charged -OR- (2) too small -OR- Both. >1. Battery solenoid gets warm with the battery master on. Is this normal? Yes >2. Could this be a battery issue? Probably . . . >3. What test can I perform on the solenoid, battery etc. ? Put a computer controlled charger on the battery and leave it connected until the charger says, "it's charged. Fire up the engine and report back on your observations . . . in particular, what is the bus voltage with the engine running, alternator ON, normal running loads ON. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 20, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Voltage drop
At 11:10 AM 8/20/2016, you wrote: >The contactor normally gets a little warm--no worries there.=C2 > >Your battery is probably just fine. My 925 does=C2 the same thing.=C2 > >You'll need some kind of back-up battery to >prevent what you're describing. I use one from TCW that works great. Oops . . . I stubbed my toe here. If you have any electro-whizzies that reboot when presented with a bus voltage below 11.0 volts . . . then they almost certainly will reboot every time you start the engine. I'm somewhat chagrined that folks who build and qualify these panel mounted super-computers don't either (1) study the real world of bus voltage behaviors during engine start and/or (2) advise the customer that their product WILL reboot during a start-up transient that has ALWAYS existed on EVERY airplane. To my mind, the simplest work-around is simply not to turn on . . . or depend on these gizmos until after engine start. Yeah, I know, our instructors taught us to concentrate on the oil pressure display after engine start with a finger on the mag switches lest the pressure not come up as expected. But I would be interested to hear if anyone on this list has ever experienced an failure of oil circulation that did not manifest until right after start up. No doubt, Lindbergh and contemporaries had good reason to worry about such things. Those guys carried tool boxes around in the rear cockpit with an eye toward needing off field maintenance of one kind or another. Now we have a new suite of technology which, for reasons we'll never know, was NOT designed to replace legacy instrumentation. DO-160 requires a qualified product to (1) not be damaged by and (2) recover gracefully from bus voltage brownouts quantified in the test requirements document. Problem is, graceful recovery has not been interpreted to mean that the oil pressure display on the glass screen needs to be as available and responsive as their steam gage counterparts during the first few seconds after engine start. This leaves the system integrator (YOU) with a problem. If you're going to pay homage to the legacy philosophy for monitoring engine parameters that were of intense interest to Charles Lindbergh, then we have to ADD power supply brown-out buffers for these new electro-whizzies . . . that COULD have been designed to accommodate such brown-outs. The question becomes, are we adding cost, weight and complexity to a system striving to honor a operating practice that has been around since Lindbergh? What are the demonstrated risks for cranking up an engine 'blind' an waiting for the 'new' technology to wake up and report for duty? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Voltage drop
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: Aug 20, 2016
The only situation I have experienced where oil pressure response time was important is for a cold start, as in below freezing, where the amount of pre-heat is questionable as to whether it was applied long enough. As in if pressure doesn't come up in 30 seconds, one should shut down and apply heat longer to the engine compartment. Seems like some electrowhizzy engine monitors take 30 seconds to boot. On the other hand, most of them respond well to a small backup battery that keeps input voltage high enough to prevent a reboot. On 8/20/2016 4:06 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: To my mind, the simplest work-around is simply not to turn > on . . . or depend on these gizmos until after engine start. > Yeah, I know, our instructors taught us to concentrate on > the oil pressure display after engine start with a finger > on the mag switches lest the pressure not come up as expected. > > Now we have a new suite of technology which, for reasons > we'll never know, was NOT designed to replace > legacy instrumentation. DO-160 requires a qualified > product to (1) not be damaged by and (2) recover gracefully > from bus voltage brownouts quantified in the test > requirements document. > The question becomes, are we adding cost, weight and complexity > to a system striving to honor a operating practice that > has been around since Lindbergh? What are the demonstrated > risks for cranking up an engine 'blind' an waiting for > the 'new' technology to wake up and report for duty? > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Trent Heidtke" <theidtke(at)cox.net>
Subject: Voltage drop
Date: Aug 20, 2016
Fairly common occurrence with the new electronic panels. Did a fair amount of research on this before deciding to feed at least one glass panel with an alternate battery so that in addition to not being affected by startup (having immediate engine instrumentation awareness when I do), tasks like doing flight plans can be done with the engine off. Just a thought Anyway, Bob has a few 2 battery diagrams in his book that were extremely helpful when I did my panel/avionics/engine monitoring system. Trent From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2016 4:07 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Voltage drop At 11:10 AM 8/20/2016, you wrote: The contactor normally gets a little warm--no worries there.=C2 Your battery is probably just fine. My 925 does=C2 the same thing.=C2 You'll need some kind of back-up battery to prevent what you're describing. I use one from TCW that works great. Oops . . . I stubbed my toe here. If you have any electro-whizzies that reboot when presented with a bus voltage below 11.0 volts . . . then they almost certainly will reboot every time you start the engine. I'm somewhat chagrined that folks who build and qualify these panel mounted super-computers don't either (1) study the real world of bus voltage behaviors during engine start and/or (2) advise the customer that their product WILL reboot during a start-up transient that has ALWAYS existed on EVERY airplane. To my mind, the simplest work-around is simply not to turn on . . . or depend on these gizmos until after engine start. Yeah, I know, our instructors taught us to concentrate on the oil pressure display after engine start with a finger on the mag switches lest the pressure not come up as expected. But I would be interested to hear if anyone on this list has ever experienced an failure of oil circulation that did not manifest until right after start up. No doubt, Lindbergh and contemporaries had good reason to worry about such things. Those guys carried tool boxes around in the rear cockpit with an eye toward needing off field maintenance of one kind or another. Now we have a new suite of technology which, for reasons we'll never know, was NOT designed to replace legacy instrumentation. DO-160 requires a qualified product to (1) not be damaged by and (2) recover gracefully from bus voltage brownouts quantified in the test requirements document. Problem is, graceful recovery has not been interpreted to mean that the oil pressure display on the glass screen needs to be as available and responsive as their steam gage counterparts during the first few seconds after engine start. This leaves the system integrator (YOU) with a problem. If you're going to pay homage to the legacy philosophy for monitoring engine parameters that were of intense interest to Charles Lindbergh, then we have to ADD power supply brown-out buffers for these new electro-whizzies . . . that COULD have been designed to accommodate such brown-outs. The question becomes, are we adding cost, weight and complexity to a system striving to honor a operating practice that has been around since Lindbergh? What are the demonstrated risks for cranking up an engine 'blind' an waiting for the 'new' technology to wake up and report for duty? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 20, 2016
Subject: Re: Voltage drop
Thanks Bob, I do have a backup battery that is already wired in but have it disconnected because there is no charging going on. The other problem is that my odyssey battery (680) was more discharged than I thought . It is on a charger now and it should rectify the problem. I was just concerned I had a bad relay or miss-wired something. The good news is I checked all my wiring Battery/ Alt. switch etc. They were all fine. I do have a basic question that I cannot seem to answer in my mind. When the Battery switch is on, there is power going to the alternator via the main B lead. Since that lead is connected directly to the output side of the battery relay dose it not draw a significant amount of current when the Battery master is on and the alternator is not running. In you book it show hat lead connected to coils that are stationary in the alternator, then to ground believe. My non electrical mind just cannot figure that out . It's been 5 years since I retired, but I do remember some screen interruption, all be it small and fast during engine starts on some if not all the planes I flew to make a buck. Usually when changing from APU power to the engine driven generators. I guess its just part of the program Thanks again for all your help Mike On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 8:06 PM, Trent Heidtke wrote: > Fairly common occurrence with the new electronic panels. > > Did a fair amount of research on this before deciding to feed at least on e > glass panel with an alternate battery so that in addition to not being > affected by startup (having immediate engine instrumentation awareness wh en > I do), tasks like doing flight plans can be done with the engine off. > > Just a thought > > Anyway, Bob has a few 2 battery diagrams in his book that were extremely > helpful when I did my panel/avionics/engine monitoring system. > > Trent > > > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: > owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Robert L. > Nuckolls, III > *Sent:* Saturday, August 20, 2016 4:07 PM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Voltage drop > > > At 11:10 AM 8/20/2016, you wrote: > > The contactor normally gets a little warm--no worries there.=C3=82 > > Your battery is probably just fine. My 925 does=C3=82 the same thing.=C3 =82 > > You'll need some kind of back-up battery to prevent what you're > describing. I use one from TCW that works great. > > > Oops . . . I stubbed my toe here. If you have any > electro-whizzies that reboot when presented with > a bus voltage below 11.0 volts . . . then they almost > certainly will reboot every time you start the engine. > > I'm somewhat chagrined that folks who build and qualify > these panel mounted super-computers don't either (1) > study the real world of bus voltage behaviors during > engine start and/or (2) advise the customer that their > product WILL reboot during a start-up transient that > has ALWAYS existed on EVERY airplane. > > To my mind, the simplest work-around is simply not to turn > on . . . or depend on these gizmos until after engine start. > Yeah, I know, our instructors taught us to concentrate on > the oil pressure display after engine start with a finger > on the mag switches lest the pressure not come up as expected. > > But I would be interested to hear if anyone on this list > has ever experienced an failure of oil circulation that did > not manifest until right after start up. No doubt, Lindbergh > and contemporaries had good reason to worry about such things. > Those guys carried tool boxes around in the rear cockpit > with an eye toward needing off field maintenance of one > kind or another. > > Now we have a new suite of technology which, for reasons > we'll never know, was NOT designed to replace > legacy instrumentation. DO-160 requires a qualified > product to (1) not be damaged by and (2) recover gracefully > from bus voltage brownouts quantified in the test > requirements document. > > Problem is, graceful recovery has not been interpreted > to mean that the oil pressure display on the glass screen > needs to be as available and responsive as their steam > gage counterparts during the first few seconds after engine > start. > > This leaves the system integrator (YOU) with a problem. > If you're going to pay homage to the legacy philosophy > for monitoring engine parameters that were of intense interest > to Charles Lindbergh, then we have to ADD power supply > brown-out buffers for these new electro-whizzies . . . that > COULD have been designed to accommodate such brown-outs. > > The question becomes, are we adding cost, weight and complexity > to a system striving to honor a operating practice that > has been around since Lindbergh? What are the demonstrated > risks for cranking up an engine 'blind' an waiting for > the 'new' technology to wake up and report for duty? > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 21, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Voltage drop
At 08:57 PM 8/20/2016, you wrote: >Thanks Bob, > >I do have a backup battery that is already wired >in but have it disconnected because there is no charging going on. Don't understand this . . . is this a system battery that is part of your airplane's architecture or is it associated with a specific appliance as part of its design? >=C2 The other problem is that my odyssey battery >(680) was more discharged than I thought .=C2 It >is on a charger now and it should rectify the >problem. I was just concerned I had a bad relay >or miss-wired something.=C2 The good news is I >checked all my wiring Battery/ Alt. switch etc.=C2 They were all fine. . . . good connecting of the dots . . . >I do have a basic question that I cannot seem to >answer in my mind.=C2 When the Battery switch is >on, there is power going to the alternator via >the main B lead. Since that lead is connected >directly to the output side of the battery relay >dose it not draw a significant amount of current >when the Battery master is on and the alternator >is not running.=C2 In you book it show hat=C2 lead >connected to coils that are stationary in the >alternator, then to ground believe.=C2 My non >electrical mind just cannot figure that out. An alternator generally has two connections to the ship's electrical system. (1) The "B-Lead" or battery lead that is a power-output connection and an input lead that is (2a) excitation from the regulator to the field . . . Emacs! . . . or (2b) on/off control to the internal regulator. Emacs! In both cases, you can see that the B-lead connects to the + side of a three-phase rectifier . . . diodes that convert the internally generated AC into DC while preventing any back flow of current from the battery into the alternator. In all automotive applications, you will find that the b-lead is always connected to the vehicle's battery. The factory stock (+) battery cable for my truck comes with two wires, a fat wire to the starter solenoid and a not-so-fat wire running directly to the alternator b-lead - power never flows into this lead as long as the diodes are intact. The only 'input' lead to an externally regulated alternator draws current when the alternator control switch is ON. This is field current from the regulator attempting to control bus voltage. If the engine is not yet running, the regulator will 'full field' the alternator causing as much as 3 amps of draw on the battery. The modern internally regulated alternator often features an integrated circuit that 'watches' for the presence of ac voltage from the stator windings. If no AC present then the alternator is not rotating . . . and field current is shut off. This prevents the otherwise inevitable, non-productive drain during times the engine is not running. >It's been 5 years since I retired, but I do >remember some screen interruption, all be it >small and fast during engine starts on some if >not all the planes I flew to make a buck.=C2 Usually when changing from >APU power to the engine driven generators. =C2 I >guess its just part of the program Correct. This is a function of time-to-boot-up inherent in the design of the appliance. As I recall, all of the screens in the line of Beech products pretty much came alive in a second or less after application of operating power whether first-on or post brown-out . . . so we KNOW it can be done. All of my software driven products are wide-eyed, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed milliseconds after power up. But ever since the Blue Mountain days of EFIS products offered to owner built and maintained aircraft, there have be a variety of instances where boot-up times were sometimes distressingly long (Blue Mountain had a HARD DRIVE!!). So not only did that product need to load an operating system, it might take many seconds after the software woke up until the analog rate integration calculations could get stood up in deducing the gravity vector. We've come a long way baby . . . but it's still disappointing that some of the big guns in the electronic instrumentation business for light aircraft are not not implementing the best we know how to do in managing power-up/brown-outs events. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 21, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Voltage drop
At 06:59 PM 8/20/2016, you wrote: > >The only situation I have experienced where oil pressure response >time was important is for a cold start, as in below freezing, where >the amount of pre-heat is questionable as to whether it was applied >long enough. As in if pressure doesn't come up in 30 seconds, one >should shut down and apply heat longer to the engine compartment. >Seems like some electrowhizzy engine monitors take 30 seconds to >boot. On the other hand, most of them respond well to a small backup >battery that keeps input voltage high enough to prevent a reboot. Yeah. I recall getting ready to depart Kansas City one morning when the airplane had sat out in -10F weather. We heated the engine and used ground power to supplement a cold battery. Engine started readily but the oil pressure didn't really start to move for a really long time (didn't have the stop watch out). The oil pressure gage was connected to the engine through a small bore copper line. Oil in that line behind the fire wall did not get warmed in pre-heat . . . and was essentially the consistency of peanut butter. Under some circumstances, even the legacy steam gage can take some time to offer useful information. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 21, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Voltage drop
Posted this eariler and got a bounce from the ListServer about having exceeded attachment limits. Need to look into that. In the mean time, here's a repost with links to images: At 08:57 PM 8/20/2016, you wrote: >Thanks Bob, > >I do have a backup battery that is already wired >in but have it disconnected because there is no charging going on. Don't understand this . . . is this a system battery that is part of your airplane's architecture or is it associated with a specific appliance as part of its design? >=C2 The other problem is that my odyssey battery >(680) was more discharged than I thought .=C2 It >is on a charger now and it should rectify the >problem. I was just concerned I had a bad relay >or miss-wired something.=C2 The good news is I >checked all my wiring Battery/ Alt. switch etc.=C2 They were all fine. . . . good connecting of the dots . . . >I do have a basic question that I cannot seem to >answer in my mind.=C2 When the Battery switch is >on, there is power going to the alternator via >the main B lead. Since that lead is connected >directly to the output side of the battery relay >dose it not draw a significant amount of current >when the Battery master is on and the alternator >is not running.=C2 In you book it show hat=C2 lead >connected to coils that are stationary in the >alternator, then to ground believe.=C2 My non >electrical mind just cannot figure that out. An alternator generally has two connections to the ship's electrical system. (1) The "B-Lead" or battery lead that is a power-output connection and an input lead that is (2a) excitation from the regulator to the field . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/List_Files/Externally_Regulated-s.jpg . . . or (2b) on/off control to the internal regulator. http://www.aeroelectric.com/List_Files/Internally_Regulated-s.jpg In both cases, you can see that the B-lead connects to the + side of a three-phase rectifier . . . diodes that convert the internally generated AC into DC while preventing any back flow of current from the battery into the alternator. In all automotive applications, you will find that the b-lead is always connected to the vehicle's battery. The factory stock (+) battery cable for my truck comes with two wires, a fat wire to the starter solenoid and a not-so-fat wire running directly to the alternator b-lead - power never flows into this lead as long as the diodes are intact. The only 'input' lead to an externally regulated alternator draws current when the alternator control switch is ON. This is field current from the regulator attempting to control bus voltage. If the engine is not yet running, the regulator will 'full field' the alternator causing as much as 3 amps of draw on the battery. The modern internally regulated alternator often features an integrated circuit that 'watches' for the presence of ac voltage from the stator windings. If no AC present then the alternator is not rotating . . . and field current is shut off. This prevents the otherwise inevitable, non-productive drain during times the engine is not running. >It's been 5 years since I retired, but I do >remember some screen interruption, all be it >small and fast during engine starts on some if >not all the planes I flew to make a buck.=C2 Usually when changing from >APU power to the engine driven generators. =C2 I >guess its just part of the program Correct. This is a function of time-to-boot-up inherent in the design of the appliance. As I recall, all of the screens in the line of Beech products pretty much came alive in a second or less after application of operating power whether first-on or post brown-out . . . so we KNOW it can be done. All of my software driven products are wide-eyed, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed milliseconds after power up. But ever since the Blue Mountain days of EFIS products offered to owner built and maintained aircraft, there have be a variety of instances where boot-up times were sometimes distressingly long (Blue Mountain had a HARD DRIVE!!). So not only did that product need to load an operating system, it might take many seconds after the software woke up until the analog rate integration calculations could get stood up in deducing the gravity vector. We've come a long way baby . . . but it's still disappointing that some of the big guns in the electronic instrumentation business for light aircraft are not not implementing the best we know how to do in managing power-up/brown-outs events. Bob . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 21, 2016
From: ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net
Subject: Re: Voltage drop
Hi Bob; Neat and very understandable schematics for externally and internally regul ated alternators. Would you care to provide one for a internally regulated, permanent magnet alternator, so as to cover the subject exhaustively? I th ink I can deduce same, but would feel better to have it "from the horse's m outh." Cheers!=C2-=C2- Stu. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2016 7:57:50 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Voltage drop Posted this eariler and got a bounce from the ListServer about having exceeded attachment limits. Need to look into that. In the mean time, here's a repost with links to images: At 08:57 PM 8/20/2016, you wrote: Thanks Bob, I do have a backup battery that is already wired in but have it disconnecte d because there is no charging going on. =C2- Don't understand this . . . is this a system =C2- battery that is part of your airplane's architecture =C2- or is it associated with a specific appliance =C2- as part of its design?
=C3=82=C2- The other problem is that my odyssey battery (680) was more di scharged than I thought .=C3=82=C2- It is on a charger now and it should rectify the problem. I was just concerned I had a bad relay or miss-wired s omething.=C3=82=C2- The good news is I checked all my wiring Battery/ Alt . switch etc.=C3=82=C2- They were all fine.
=C2-=C2- . . . good connecting of the dots . . .
I do have a basic question that I cannot seem to answer in my mind.=C3=82 =C2- When the Battery switch is on, there is power going to the alternato r via the main B lead. Since that lead is connected directly to the output side of the battery relay dose it not draw a significant amount of current when the Battery master is on and the alternator is not running.=C3=82=C2 - In you book it show hat=C3=82=C2- lead connected to coils that are st ationary in the alternator, then to ground believe.=C3=82=C2- My non elec trical mind just cannot figure that out.
=C2- An alternator generally has two connections =C2- to the ship's electrical system. (1) The "B-Lead" =C2- or battery lead that is a power-output connection =C2- and an input lead that is (2a) excitation from the =C2- regulator to the field . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/List_Files/Externally_Regulated-s.jpg =C2-. . . or (2b) on/off control to the internal =C2-regulator. http://www.aeroelectric.com/List_Files/Internally_Regulated-s.jpg =C2- In both cases, you can see that the B-lead =C2- connects to the + side of a three-phase =C2- rectifier . . . diodes that convert the =C2- internally generated AC into DC while =C2- preventing any back flow of current from =C2- the battery into the alternator. =C2- In all automotive applications, you will find that =C2- the b-lead is always connected to the vehicle's =C2- battery. The factory stock (+) battery cable for =C2- my truck comes with two wires, a fat wire to the =C2- starter solenoid and a not-so-fat wire running =C2- directly to the alternator b-lead - power never =C2- flows into this lead as long as the diodes =C2- are intact. =C2- The only 'input' lead to an externally regulated =C2- alternator draws current when the alternator =C2- control switch is ON. This is field current =C2- from the regulator attempting to control =C2- bus voltage. If the engine is not yet running, =C2- the regulator will 'full field' the alternator =C2- causing as much as 3 amps of draw on the =C2- battery. =C2- The modern internally regulated alternator =C2- often features an integrated circuit that =C2- 'watches' for the presence of ac voltage =C2- from the stator windings. If no AC present =C2- then the alternator is not rotating . . . and =C2- field current is shut off. This prevents =C2- the otherwise inevitable, non-productive =C2- drain during times the engine is not running.
It's been 5 years since I retired, but I do remember some screen interrupti on, all be it small and fast during engine starts on some if not all the pl anes I flew to make a buck.=C3=82=C2- Usually when changing from APU power to the engine driven generators. =C3=82=C2- I guess its just pa rt of the program
=C2- Correct. This is a function of time-to-boot-up =C2- inherent in the design of the appliance. =C2- As I recall, all of the screens in the =C2- line of Beech products pretty much came =C2- alive in a second or less after application =C2- of operating power whether first-on or =C2- post brown-out . . . so we KNOW it can =C2- be done. All of my software driven products =C2- are wide-eyed, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed =C2- milliseconds after power up. =C2- But ever since the Blue Mountain days of =C2- EFIS products offered to owner built and =C2- maintained aircraft, there have be a variety =C2- of instances where boot-up times were sometimes =C2- distressingly long (Blue Mountain had a HARD =C2- DRIVE!!). So not only did that product =C2- need to load an operating system, it might =C2- take many seconds after the software woke =C2- up until the analog rate integration =C2- calculations could get stood up in deducing =C2- the gravity vector. =C2- We've come a long way baby . . . but it's =C2- still disappointing that some of the big =C2- guns in the electronic instrumentation =C2- business for light aircraft are not not =C2- implementing the best we know how to do =C2- in managing power-up/brown-outs events. =C2- Bob . . . =C2- Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 21, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Voltage drop
At 11:18 AM 8/21/2016, you wrote: >Hi Bob; >Neat and very understandable schematics for externally and >internally regulated alternators. Would you care to provide one for >a internally regulated, permanent magnet alternator, so as to cover >the subject exhaustively? I think I can deduce same, but would feel >better to have it "from the horse's mouth." >Cheers! Stu. I'm not sure such a critter exitsts. The only PM alternators I'm aware of are exceedingly simple arrays of magnets rotated about a stator winding of suitable wire. Check out the images at . . . http://tinyurl.com/z27kpv4 These are PM alternators characteristic of all such products from the lowly SD-8 up through the 30A, 3-phase machines on some small tractors. Spinning magnets, stationary wires. The energy coming out of these machines is an AC current with frequency and voltage proportional to engine RPM. This is why the 'regulators' paired with these devices are more properly called RECTIFIER-REGULATORS. They must not only convert the AC to DC (like the diodes in the wound field alternators) they must CONTROL that voltage through devices that must CARRY the full load current. Hence, there are no nifty, itty-bitty regulators like those found in wound field machines . . . instead, the R-R is a rather robust device obviously designed to dissipate HEAT. It's a whole other breed of cat . . . so sayeth the north end of the northbound horse. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Aug 21, 2016
Subject: EFIS Power Switch
Folks, I am reviewing my wiring diagrams, prior to starting to assemble the wiring harness for my EFIS. I started with MGL's installation instructions, which include an On/Off power switch for the whole MGL system: display + iBox + RDAC + magnetometer + AHRS. You can see the "EFIS On-Off" switch in these three diagrams: =8B can bus 1.pdf =8B=8B can bus 2.pdf =8B=8B ibox.pdf =8B I am honestly not sure that I want this switch. Is there ever a time when I would have the master switch on but not want power to the EFIS? As far as current draining the battery, I am not too worried. The whole system (all five components) draws just 1.7-2.9 amps, depending on display brightness and whether or not the heaters in the magnetometer and AHRS are energized. -- Art Z. -- http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Voltage drop
From: Chuck Birdsall <cbirdsall6(at)cox.net>
Date: Aug 21, 2016
Bob, With respect to your 4th paragraph - I work in the TC maintenance side of th e aviation industry, and have seen oil delivery system failure manifest itse lf first during engine start. The majority of those times the failure was e ither maintenance-induced or were on aircraft that have sat for extended per iods with no attempt to pre-oil before starting (one of the bigger offenders in the latter in my experience has been geared, turbocharged Continentals i n Cessna 400 series aircraft, for some reason). A few, however were mechanic al failures that were clued-in by oil pressure goofiness. One of those involved a pipeline patrol aircraft whose operator said that he didn't think the engine was developing full power. He also mentioned casual ly that the oil pressure was jumping up high right away after engine start, a nd had been doing that for several flights. That little tidbit led us to the oil filter, which was chock full o metal bits. (After further clue-taking t he engine was replaced...) My take on this is that oil pressure behavior is one of several clues to eng ine health. If the behavior departs from the norm then it's time to start as king why. It's also the last chance you get to discover that after draining t he oil for an oil change, you forgot to put oil back in - before it gets tur ned into very expensive paper weights. It's why I'd recommend having some s ort of backup for use during engine start or other times when the electrical system has failed. In the TC world that's usually a backup battery (a la G 1000), but even a simple idiot light attached to an oil pressure switch woul d help. Chuck On Aug 20, 2016, at 6:06 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelect ric.com> wrote: At 11:10 AM 8/20/2016, you wrote: > The contactor normally gets a little warm--no worries there.=C3=82 > > Your battery is probably just fine. My 925 does=C3=82 the same thing.=C3=82 > > You'll need some kind of back-up battery to prevent what you're describing . I use one from TCW that works great. Oops . . . I stubbed my toe here. If you have any electro-whizzies that reboot when presented with a bus voltage below 11.0 volts . . . then they almost certainly will reboot every time you start the engine. I'm somewhat chagrined that folks who build and qualify these panel mounted super-computers don't either (1) study the real world of bus voltage behaviors during engine start and/or (2) advise the customer that their product WILL reboot during a start-up transient that has ALWAYS existed on EVERY airplane. To my mind, the simplest work-around is simply not to turn on . . . or depend on these gizmos until after engine start. Yeah, I know, our instructors taught us to concentrate on the oil pressure display after engine start with a finger on the mag switches lest the pressure not come up as expected. But I would be interested to hear if anyone on this list has ever experienced an failure of oil circulation that did not manifest until right after start up. No doubt, Lindbergh and contemporaries had good reason to worry about such things. Those guys carried tool boxes around in the rear cockpit with an eye toward needing off field maintenance of one kind or another. Now we have a new suite of technology which, for reasons we'll never know, was NOT designed to replace legacy instrumentation. DO-160 requires a qualified product to (1) not be damaged by and (2) recover gracefully from bus voltage brownouts quantified in the test requirements document. Problem is, graceful recovery has not been interpreted to mean that the oil pressure display on the glass screen needs to be as available and responsive as their steam gage counterparts during the first few seconds after engine start. This leaves the system integrator (YOU) with a problem. If you're going to pay homage to the legacy philosophy for monitoring engine parameters that were of intense interest to Charles Lindbergh, then we have to ADD power supply brown-out buffers for these new electro-whizzies . . . that COULD have been designed to accommodate such brown-outs. The question becomes, are we adding cost, weight and complexity to a system striving to honor a operating practice that has been around since Lindbergh? What are the demonstrated risks for cranking up an engine 'blind' an waiting for the 'new' technology to wake up and report for duty? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 21, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Voltage drop
At 03:24 PM 8/21/2016, you wrote: >Bob, > >With respect to your 4th paragraph - I work in the TC maintenance >side of the aviation industry, and have seen oil delivery system >failure manifest itself first during engine start. The majority of >those times the failure was either maintenance-induced or were on >aircraft that have sat for extended periods with no attempt to >pre-oil before starting (one of the bigger offenders in the latter >in my experience has been geared, turbocharged Continentals in >Cessna 400 series aircraft, for some reason). A few, however were >mechanical failures that were clued-in by oil pressure goofiness. Yes, aviation has been plagued with numerous examples of engines that operated on the edge of self destruction . . . the C175 engines come to mind also. But again, what are the probabilities that upon starting an engine predominant in OBAM aviation aircraft that it will present with a loss of oil pressure . . . given that it taxied an airplane to parking in the not too distant past? Further, an aviation maintenance career puts you in situations like doctors . . . who never see anyone but sick people. My last five years at Beech concentrated on a series of seemingly intractable difficulties . . . but for every airplane I touched, there were thousands that did not need or would benefit from my attention. >My take on this is that oil pressure behavior is one of several >clues to engine health. If the behavior departs from the norm then >it's time to start asking why. It's also the last chance you get to >discover that after draining the oil for an oil change, you forgot >to put oil back in - before it gets turned into very expensive paper weights. But do the FMEA on these hypothetical scenarios. It's one thing that a particular engine/airframe combination has a history of difficulties related to loss of oil pressure . . . is anyone here on the List flying such a machine? Forgetting to put the oil in . . . any owner/op at elevated risk for such errors has dozens of opportunities for equal if not or more hazardous examples of absent minded events. If anyone is truly concerned about immediate notification of oil pressure after start up, I suggest that an oil pressure switch and warning light would be a simpler, lower cost, lighter weight and nearly zero maintenance solution compared with any sort of battery installation. Such switches are not subject to the effects of brown-out. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 21, 2016
From: Jim Baker <jimbaker(at)npacc.net>
Subject: Re: Voltage drop
Learned to fly a J3 with my Dad as the instructor. Even the old C65 was prone to startup oil pressure issues. Had to watch carefully to see if pressure would develop immediately after the hand prop. If not, you'd have to pull the pressure line off the back of the pump and prime it with a squirt can so the gears would have something to work with. Jim Baker 405 426 5377 -----Original Message----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Sent: Sun, 21 Aug 2016 20:12 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Voltage drop --=====================_632832515==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:24 PM 8/21/2016, you wrote: >Bob, > >With respect to your 4th paragraph - I work in the TC maintenance >side of the aviation industry, and have seen oil delivery system >failure manifest itself first during engine start. The majority of >those times the failure was either maintenance-induced or were on >aircraft that have sat for extended periods with no attempt to >pre-oil before starting (one of the bigger offenders in the latter >in my experience has been geared, turbocharged Continentals in >Cessna 400 series aircraft, for some reason). A few, however were >mechanical failures that were clued-in by oil pressure goofiness. Yes, aviation has been plagued with numerous examples of engines that operated on the edge of self destruction . . . the C175 engines come to mind also. But again, what are the probabilities that upon starting an engine predominant in OBAM aviation aircraft that it will present with a loss of oil pressure . . . given that it taxied an airplane to parking in the not too distant past? Further, an aviation maintenance career puts you in situations like doctors . . . who never see anyone but sick people. My last five years at Beech concentrated on a series of seemingly intractable difficulties . . . but for every airplane I touched, there were thousands that did not need or would benefit from my attention. >My take on this is that oil pressure behavior is one of several >clues to engine health. If the behavior departs from the norm then >it's time to start asking why. It's also the last chance you get to >discover that after draining the oil for an oil change, you forgot >to put oil back in - before it gets turned into very expensive paper weights. But do the FMEA on these hypothetical scenarios. It's one thing that a particular engine/airframe combination has a history of difficulties related to loss of oil pressure . . . is anyone here on the List flying such a machine? Forgetting to put the oil in . . . any owner/op at elevated risk for such errors has dozens of opportunities for equal if not or more hazardous examples of absent minded events. If anyone is truly concerned about immediate notification of oil pressure after start up, I suggest that an oil pressure switch and warning light would be a simpler, lower cost, lighter weight and nearly zero maintenance solution compared with any sort of battery installation. Such switches are not subject to the effects of brown-out. Bob . . . --=====================_632832515==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 03:24 PM 8/21/2016, you wrote:
Bob,

With respect to your 4th paragraph - I work in the TC maintenance side of the aviation industry, and have seen oil delivery system failure manifest itself first during engine start.  The majority of those times the failure was either maintenance-induced or were on aircraft that have sat for extended periods with no attempt to pre-oil before starting (one of the bigger offenders in the latter in my experience has been geared, turbocharged Continentals in Cessna 400 series aircraft, for some reason). A few, however were mechanical failures that were clued-in by oil pressure goofiness.
Yes, aviation has been plagued with numerous
examples of engines that operated on the edge
of self destruction . . . the C175 engines
come to mind also. But again, what are the
probabilities that upon starting an engine
predominant in OBAM aviation aircraft that
it will present with a loss of oil pressure
 . . . given that it taxied an airplane to
parking in the not too distant past?

Further, an aviation maintenance career
puts you in situations like doctors . . .
who never see anyone but sick people.
My last five years at Beech concentrated
on a series of seemingly intractable
difficulties . . . but for every airplane
I touched, there were thousands that did
not need or would benefit from my attention.

My take on this is that oil pressure behavior is one of several clues to engine health. If the behavior departs from the norm then it's time to start asking why. It's also the last chance you get to discover that after draining the oil for an oil change, you forgot to put oil back in - before it gets turned into very expensive paper weights.
But do the FMEA on these hypothetical scenarios.
It's one thing that a particular engine/airframe
combination has a history of difficulties related
to loss of oil pressure . . . is anyone here on
the List flying such a machine? Forgetting to
put the oil in . . . any owner/op at elevated
risk for such errors has dozens of opportunities
for equal if not or more hazardous examples of
absent minded events.

If anyone is truly concerned about immediate
notification of oil pressure after start up,
I suggest that an oil pressure switch and
warning light would be a simpler, lower cost,
lighter weight and nearly zero maintenance
solution compared with any sort of battery
installation. Such switches are not subject
to the effects of brown-out.


  Bob . . . --=====================_632832515==.ALT--
--=====================_632832515==.ALT-- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 21, 2016
From: ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net
Subject: Re: Voltage drop
Hi Bob; One such critter is DB Electrical APM0009, which is a 12 V., 20 Amp, intern ally regulated permanent magnet alternator. Cheers!=C2-=C2- Stu. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2016 11:17:35 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Voltage drop At 11:18 AM 8/21/2016, you wrote: Hi Bob; Neat and very understandable schematics for externally and internally regul ated alternators. Would you care to provide one for a internally regulated, permanent magnet alternator, so as to cover the subject exhaustively? I th ink I can deduce same, but would feel better to have it "from the horse's m outh." Cheers!=C2-=C2- Stu. =C2-=C2- I'm not sure such a critter exitsts. =C2-=C2- The only PM alternators I'm aware =C2-=C2- of are exceedingly simple arrays of =C2-=C2- magnets rotated about a stator winding =C2-=C2- of suitable wire. Check out the images =C2-=C2- at . . . http://tinyurl.com/z27kpv4 =C2-=C2- These are PM alternators characteristic =C2-=C2- of all such products from the lowly SD-8 up =C2-=C2- through the 30A, 3-phase machines on some =C2-=C2- small tractors. =C2-=C2- Spinning magnets, stationary wires. =C2-=C2- The energy coming out of these machines is =C2-=C2- an AC current with frequency and voltage =C2-=C2- proportional to engine RPM. =C2-=C2- This is why the 'regulators' paired with =C2-=C2- these devices are more properly called =C2-=C2- RECTIFIER-REGULATORS. =C2-=C2- They must not only convert the AC to DC =C2-=C2- (like the diodes in the wound field =C2-=C2- alternators) they must CONTROL that voltage =C2-=C2- through devices that must CARRY the full =C2-=C2- load current. Hence, there are no nifty, =C2-=C2- itty-bitty regulators like those found in =C2-=C2- wound field machines . . . instead, the R-R =C2-=C2- is a rather robust device obviously designed =C2-=C2- to dissipate HEAT. =C2-=C2- It's a whole other breed of cat . . . so =C2-=C2- sayeth the north end of the northbound =C2-=C2- horse.=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2- Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: EFIS Power Switch
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 21, 2016
> I am honestly not sure that I want this switch. Is there ever a time when I would have the master switch on but not want power to the EFIS? The pilot should have the ability to shut off each and every electrical load. If the MGL units have their own switches, than an additional switch is not necessary. If the MGL malfunctions or gives off smoke, there should be a way to shut it off without shutting off everything else. On the other hand, if you do not mind shutting off the master switch if necessary, it is not a big deal. Builders of experimental aircraft can wire the airplane to meet their goals. As long as it is not dangerous, do it the way you want. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459733#459733 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 22, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Voltage drop
At 09:15 PM 8/21/2016, you wrote: >Hi Bob; >One such critter is DB Electrical APM0009, which is a 12 V., 20 Amp, >internally regulated permanent magnet alternator. >Cheers! Stu. Cool! Thanks for the heads-up! Well, if there's one such device, there must be others. Emacs! The really interesting thing about this amalgam of technologies is the relative dearth of heat dissipation features for a 20 AMP rating. There appears to be several devices of this style http://tinyurl.com/jyt7wul They have Lester numbers which suggests that the parts are manufactured in large quantities for the industrial/automotive world. The Arrowhead brand is a new one too . . . pretty big outfit. http://tinyurl.com/hthwy29 I'm tempted to order one of these things to 'play' with. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Voltage drop
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 22, 2016
On 8/22/2016 7:28 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 09:15 PM 8/21/2016, you wrote: >> Hi Bob; >> One such critter is DB Electrical APM0009, which is a 12 V., 20 Amp, >> internally regulated permanent magnet alternator. >> Cheers! Stu. > > Cool! Thanks for the heads-up! Well, if there's > one such device, there must be others. > > Emacs! > The really interesting thing about this amalgam > of technologies is the relative dearth of heat > dissipation features for a 20 AMP rating. > > There appears to be several devices of this > style > > http://tinyurl.com/jyt7wul > > They have Lester numbers which suggests that > the parts are manufactured in large quantities > for the industrial/automotive world. The > Arrowhead brand is a new one too . . . pretty > big outfit. > > http://tinyurl.com/hthwy29 > > I'm tempted to order one of these things to > 'play' with. > > > Bob . . . > I think that if you inspect that photo carefully, it's apparent that these 'internally regulated' units are basically the original PM alternator with the regulator bolted to the back. More convenient packaging, perhaps, but not really different from bolting an older style reg to the back of the old style PM alt. /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDAAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQH/2wBDAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQH/wAAR CAFdAZADASIAAhEBAxEB/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtRAA AgEDAwIEAwUFBAQAAAF9AQIDAAQRBRIhMUEGE1FhByJxFDKBkaEII0KxwRVS0fAkM2JyggkK FhcYGRolJicoKSo0NTY3ODk6Q0RFRkdISUpTVFVWV1hZWmNkZWZnaGlqc3R1dnd4eXqDhIWG h4iJipKTlJWWl5iZmqKjpKWmp6ipqrKztLW2t7i5usLDxMXGx8jJytLT1NXW19jZ2uHi4+Tl 5ufo6erx8vP09fb3+Pn6/8QAHwEAAwEBAQEBAQEBAQAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtREA AgECBAQDBAcFBAQAAQJ3AAECAxEEBSExBhJBUQdhcRMiMoEIFEKRobHBCSMzUvAVYnLRChYk NOEl8RcYGRomJygpKjU2Nzg5OkNERUZHSElKU1RVVldYWVpjZGVmZ2hpanN0dXZ3eHl6goOE hYaHiImKkpOUlZaXmJmaoqOkpaanqKmqsrO0tba3uLm6wsPExcbHyMnK0tPU1dbX2Nna4uPk 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Subject: Re: Voltage drop
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 22, 2016
On 8/22/2016 7:28 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 09:15 PM 8/21/2016, you wrote: >> Hi Bob; >> One such critter is DB Electrical APM0009, which is a 12 V., 20 Amp, >> internally regulated permanent magnet alternator. >> Cheers! Stu. > > Cool! Thanks for the heads-up! Well, if there's > one such device, there must be others. > > > The really interesting thing about this amalgam > of technologies is the relative dearth of heat > dissipation features for a 20 AMP rating. > > There appears to be several devices of this > style > > http://tinyurl.com/jyt7wul > > They have Lester numbers which suggests that > the parts are manufactured in large quantities > for the industrial/automotive world. The > Arrowhead brand is a new one too . . . pretty > big outfit. > > http://tinyurl.com/hthwy29 > > I'm tempted to order one of these things to > 'play' with. > > > Bob . . . > I think that if you inspect that photo carefully, it's apparent that these 'internally regulated' units are basically the original PM alternator with the regulator bolted to the back. More convenient packaging, perhaps, but not really different from bolting an older style reg to the back of the old style PM alt. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Aug 22, 2016
Subject: Re: EFIS Power Switch
Joe, The conversation about measuring oil pressure at engine start is what got me pondering the question: Is there ever a time when I would have the master switch on but not want power to the EFIS? I am guessing that, should we actually think about and debate it, we may decide that the statement "the pilot should have the ability to shut off each and every electrical load" may prove an oversimplification, left over from olden days of yore. Thus my question and I am hoping for more responses. -- Art Z. On Sun, Aug 21, 2016 at 9:27 PM, user9253 wrote: > > I am honestly not sure that I want this switch. Is there ever a time > when I would have the master switch on but not want power to the EFIS? > > The pilot should have the ability to shut off each and every electrical > load. -- http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com>
Subject: Re: EFIS Power Switch
Date: Aug 22, 2016
I use my EIS to monitor the engine at startup. I do not turn on the EFIS until after engine start. Between breakers and switches I can effectively turn off everything. Rene' 801-721-6080 From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Art Zemon Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 8:44 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: EFIS Power Switch Joe, The conversation about measuring oil pressure at engine start is what got me pondering the question: Is there ever a time when I would have the master switch on but not want power to the EFIS? I am guessing that, should we actually think about and debate it, we may decide that the statement "the pilot should have the ability to shut off each and every electrical load" may prove an oversimplification, left over from olden days of yore. Thus my question and I am hoping for more responses. -- Art Z. On Sun, Aug 21, 2016 at 9:27 PM, user9253 wrote: > I am honestly not sure that I want this switch. Is there ever a time when I would have the master switch on but not want power to the EFIS? The pilot should have the ability to shut off each and every electrical load. -- <http://cheerfulcurmudgeon.com/> http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 22, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Voltage drop
>I think that if you inspect that photo carefully, it's apparent that >these 'internally regulated' units are basically the original PM >alternator with the regulator bolted to the back. More convenient >packaging, perhaps, but not really different from bolting an older >style reg to the back of the old style PM alt. Oh sure . . . but perhaps we're splitting hairs . . . the rectifier-regulator is an integral component of the assembly . . . Had the designers added an all-enclosing shroud or cooling plenum on the back, the r-r could easily be deemed 'internal' I think the most noteworthy features of this product are the apparent output (20A) but with nothing obvious in the way of aggressive cooling. They may have achieved something of an energy management ooup here. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 22, 2016
Subject: Re: EFIS Power Switch
Dynon can (and should) be on during engine start. . It has a soft key "button" you can press to shut it down (not electrically isolated). If some of the magic smoke starts to escape then the CB can be used to isolate it from its electrical source. Bill Hunter On Aug 22, 2016 7:57 AM, "Art Zemon" wrote: > Joe, > > The conversation about measuring oil pressure at engine start is what got > me pondering the question: Is there ever a time when I would have the > master switch on but not want power to the EFIS? > > I am guessing that, should we actually think about and debate it, we may > decide that the statement "the pilot should have the ability to shut off > each and every electrical load" may prove an oversimplification, left over > from olden days of yore. Thus my question and I am hoping for more > responses. > > -- Art Z. > > On Sun, Aug 21, 2016 at 9:27 PM, user9253 wrote: > >> > I am honestly not sure that I want this switch. Is there ever a time >> when I would have the master switch on but not want power to the EFIS? >> >> The pilot should have the ability to shut off each and every electrical >> load. > > > -- > http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what > am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: EFIS Power Switch
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Date: Aug 22, 2016
This a question I pondered, decided on a course and have now flown it for 5 years. I went with (3) GRT/HX EFIS units and left them unswitched. My thinking was I wanted them on, I never wanted them inadvertently switched off (due to boot time), and I didn't want to add another potential point of failure. In retrospect, a switch for each unit would have been welcomed. The (3) units along with the rest of my avionics puts enough of a drain on the system that (1) 680 is not enough to prevent brownouts during starts. More importantly I like to run my panel with the engine off for flight plan loading and clearances. But I knew all that up front during the planning process so I went with Bob's dual batt, dual alt setup. And this 'almost' works for me. That is, if everything is 100%, I can run the panel for extended periods if desired, start the engine, etc without a concern. But.... If anything is less than 100%, I got brownouts during start-up. Why would things be less than 100% in an airworthy plane? Stuff happens - e.g. the 24/7 clock in the GRTs used to run the battery down until GRT killed the function in a later release. One side of the charging system was undercharging a battery, etc. I could have installed switches to help manage things when desired but instead I doubled down and added TCW's power stabilizer (not a battery but a big condenser I think). This provided the extra 'load smoothing' to avoid any and all brownouts during starts, that is, in my particular situation/configuration. Given its ongoing success, I still really like not having them switched, probably because that's what I have. But switches are probably a simpler and certainly more cost effective solution to a perhaps non-existent problem. (note: all my operations are for travel, most flights IFR, >50% of operations are not at home airport, YMMV) Bill "happily flying around with the entire kitchen sink for a panel" Watson > > I am honestly not sure that I want this switch. Is there ever a time > when I would have the master switch on but not want power to the EFIS? > > As far as current draining the battery, I am not too worried. The > whole system (all five components) draws just 1.7-2.9 amps, depending > on display brightness and whether or not the heaters in the > magnetometer and AHRS are energized. > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Voltage drop
Date: Aug 22, 2016
From: mike(at)vision499.com
MGL makes a product called an "AVIOGUARD" that gives you a steady 13.8v out with input between 9v and 36v. On 2016-08-20 16:37, Michael Lazarowicz wrote: > I was doing some checks on my RV8 electrical system that I just > finished a few weeks ago. This is a brand new plane under > construction. Before I fired up any of the Garmin G3x stuff, I tested > the usual systems , starter , fuel pump lights etc. all seemed to work > fine. I fired up the G3x and it also come on line with no problems. > > Yesterday I had everything on line and tested the starter again. When > the starter turned all my other electronics died. As soon as the > starter stopped they came back on. It appears that the current draw > from the starter took the voltage available to the other Items so low > they shut down ( most of the G3X stuff shuts down below 11 volts or > so). I have a new odyssey battery 680 and it appears to be charged. > Here are my questions. > > 1. Battery solenoid gets warm with the battery master on. Is this > normal? > > 2. Could this be a battery issue? > > 3. What test can I perform on the solenoid, battery etc. ? > > Thanks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: EFIS Power Switch
Date: Aug 22, 2016
"The pilot should have a way of shutting off each and every electrical load" Without turning off the master switch, I cannot shut off: Fuel quantity gauges, Any engine gauges, Voltmeter and ammeter, Intercom, USB power. If one of these items fails in spectacular fashion without blowing the fuse, I guess I'll have to turn the master off but I'm not sure that's a likely f ailure mode. I don't think I have ever flown an aircraft that has a switch f or every electrical load. Sebastien > On Aug 22, 2016, at 07:44, Art Zemon wrote: > > Joe, > > The conversation about measuring oil pressure at engine start is what got m e pondering the question: Is there ever a time when I would have the master s witch on but not want power to the EFIS? > > I am guessing that, should we actually think about and debate it, we may d ecide that the statement "the pilot should have the ability to shut off each and every electrical load" may prove an oversimplification, left over from o lden days of yore. Thus my question and I am hoping for more responses. > > -- Art Z. > >> On Sun, Aug 21, 2016 at 9:27 PM, user9253 wrote: >> > I am honestly not sure that I want this switch. Is there ever a time wh en I would have the master switch on but not want power to the EFIS? >> >> The pilot should have the ability to shut off each and every electrical l oad. > > > -- > http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what a m I? And if not now, when?" Hillel ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 22, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: EFIS Power Switch
At 09:44 AM 8/22/2016, you wrote: >Joe, > >The conversation about measuring oil pressure at engine start is >what got me pondering the question: Is there ever a time when I >would have the master switch on but not want power to the EFIS? Battery only ground ops for maintenance. >I am guessing that, should we actually think about and debate it, we >may decide that the statement "the pilot should have the ability to >shut off each and every electrical load" may prove an >oversimplification, left over from olden days of yore. Thus my >question and I am hoping for more responses. In 'heavy iron', virtually everything in the cockpit is powered through a breaker that is accessible to the crew. Generally speaking, there are few if any panel mounted items capable of generating hazardous amounts of smoke. Things inside panel mounted electro-whizzies tend to simply burn through in a few seconds without flaming or propagating the failure . . . all inside some sort of enclosure. By the time you sense the smoke, identify its source, find the breaker/switch and do something about it, it's all over. I cannot imagine any failure scenario in a thoughtfully designed architecture that gives one pause for concerns about absolute and immediate control over power on the panel. The highest risk failures are for hard faults on wires. They have range of distance and penetration along with proximity to other potential victims. This is what fuses and breaker are for. Beyond that, the risks are vanishingly small. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Aug 22, 2016
Subject: Re: EFIS Power Switch
On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 12:10 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 09:44 AM 8/22/2016, you wrote: > > Joe, > > The conversation about measuring oil pressure at engine start is what got > me pondering the question: Is there ever a time when I would have the > master switch on but not want power to the EFIS? > > > Battery only ground ops for maintenance. > That makes sense. A transponder check, for instance. So in my plane, if I skip the EFIS power switch, I would have an unwanted load on the battery of 1.2-2.9 amps. Thanks for all of the comments, people. You have given me food for thought. -- Art Z. -- http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 22, 2016
From: <rv7a.builder(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 2-50 toggle switch
Hello Group.=C2-With respect to the 2-50 toggle switch, on-on-(on), when switching to the momentary position do the other positions open up for an i nstant during the switching motion. I was thinking about using it for the a utopilot as the off-on-disengage, but I would not want the middle position "on" to be disrupted during switching to the momentary "on" position to dis engage the autopilot. My RV-7A does not have an avionics master and I was t hinking instead of installing an on/off to power the autopilot and then a 2 nd spst momentary push button for the autopilot disengage, I could incorpor ate these 2 functions into to a single switch. Thanks for any thoughts. =C2 -=C2-John Robinson RV-7A. =C2-Flying for 95 Hours. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 22, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: EFIS Power Switch
At 01:01 PM 8/22/2016, you wrote: >On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 12:10 PM, Robert L. >Nuckolls, III ><nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: >At 09:44 AM 8/22/2016, you wrote: >>Joe, >> >>The conversation about measuring oil pressure >>at engine start is what got me pondering the >>question: Is there ever a time when I would >>have the master switch on but not want power to the EFIS? > >=C2 Battery only ground ops for maintenance. > >That makes sense. A transponder check, for >instance. So in my plane, if I skip the EFIS >power switch, I would have an unwanted load on the battery of 1.2-2.9 amps. Perhaps I should have been more detailed. EXTENDED ground ops . . . for the time that it takes to run an occasional test, you're not likely to seriously tax the battery . . . but then we all KNOW how long our battery will run ENDURANCE loads . . . right? For extended ground ops, an ac mains ground power supply becomes cheaper every year. A few years ago I sold a switch mode ground power supply good for 22A (as I recall) for about $125. Nowadays, one can purchase a 15v, 27A supply for $32 delivered to your door. http://tinyurl.com/zwmvcpp Put a heat-sinked diode in series with the supply to prevent inadvertent back-feed and this critter will probably run everything you need to run . . . even pitot heat. A switch (or switches) installed for the purpose of managing battery drain in ground ops may not be so practical. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 22, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 2-50 toggle switch
At 01:47 PM 8/22/2016, you wrote: >Hello Group. > With respect to the 2-50 toggle switch, on-on-(on), when switching > to the momentary position do the other positions open up for an > instant during the switching motion. I was thinking about using it > for the autopilot as the off-on-disengage, but I would not want the > middle position "on" to be disrupted during switching to the > momentary "on" position to disengage the autopilot. My RV-7A does > not have an avionics master and I was thinking instead of > installing an on/off to power the autopilot and then a 2nd spst > momentary push button for the autopilot disengage, I could > incorporate these 2 functions into to a single switch. Thanks for > any thoughts. > John Robinson RV-7A. Flying for 95 Hours. Not sure about the nature of your difficulty. I'll refer you to the 2-50 schematic . . . Emacs! Note that as the switch is moved out of the center position in either direction, the ON-condition of only one pole is affected. Moving UP in the schematic above, there is no change of state in the 2-1 connection, only the 5-6 moving to 5-4. AP power running through 2-1 would not be interrupted when commanding a disconnect by closing 5-4 Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com>
Subject: 2-50 toggle switch
Date: Aug 22, 2016
I have a Trutrak in my airplane. I use one momentary (on) switch. If I hold it for 3 seconds it engages the autopilot and if I just hit it disengages the autopilot. Don=99t know it this tidbit helps at all. But, I do love the feature. Rene' 801-721-6080 From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rv7a.builder(at)yahoo.com Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 12:48 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: 2-50 toggle switch Hello Group. With respect to the 2-50 toggle switch, on-on-(on), when switching to the momentary position do the other positions open up for an instant during the switching motion. I was thinking about using it for the autopilot as the off-on-disengage, but I would not want the middle position "on" to be disrupted during switching to the momentary "on" position to disengage the autopilot. My RV-7A does not have an avionics master and I was thinking instead of installing an on/off to power the autopilot and then a 2nd spst momentary push button for the autopilot disengage, I could incorporate these 2 functions into to a single switch. Thanks for any thoughts. John Robinson RV-7A. Flying for 95 Hours. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 22, 2016
Subject: 2-50 toggle switch
From: "rv7a.builder" <rv7a.builder(at)yahoo.com>
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From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Aug 22, 2016
Subject: Re: EFIS Power Switch
Whoa. The electronics do keep getting cheaper and cheaper. I still have an old 12V power supply kicking around in my basement. I bought it in the early 1970s and used it for running mobile CB equipment at home, back in the days when you could actually have a real conversation on a CB radio. If I remember correctly, I paid upwards of $100 for a 100W power supply. What an investment! -- Art Z. On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 01:01 PM 8/22/2016, you wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 12:10 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > At 09:44 AM 8/22/2016, you wrote: > > Joe, > > The conversation about measuring oil pressure at engine start is what got > me pondering the question: Is there ever a time when I would have the > master switch on but not want power to the EFIS? > > > =C3=82 Battery only ground ops for maintenance. > > That makes sense. A transponder check, for instance. So in my plane, if I > skip the EFIS power switch, I would have an unwanted load on the battery of > 1.2-2.9 amps. > Perhaps I should have been more detailed. > > EXTENDED ground ops . . . for the time that > it takes to run an occasional test, you're > not likely to seriously tax the battery . . . > but then we all KNOW how long our battery > will run ENDURANCE loads . . . right? > > For extended ground ops, an ac mains > ground power supply becomes cheaper > every year. A few years ago I sold a > switch mode ground power supply good for > 22A (as I recall) for about $125. > > Nowadays, one can purchase a 15v, 27A > supply for $32 delivered to your door. > > http://tinyurl.com/zwmvcpp > > Put a heat-sinked diode in series with > the supply to prevent inadvertent back-feed > and this critter will probably run everything > you need to run . . . even pitot heat. > > A switch (or switches) installed for the > purpose of managing battery drain in > ground ops may not be so practical. > > > Bob . . . > -- http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com>
Subject: 2-50 toggle switch
Date: Aug 22, 2016
I think they call their feature control wheel steering or something like that. So you have the autopilot engaged and are flying it along (not coupled) and you want to change the track by 10 degrees or so, hold the button turn the 10 degrees and release. Keeps your head out of the cockpit and lets you just point and go. Rene' 801-721-6080 From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rv7a.builder Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 3:06 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 2-50 toggle switch Hi Rene', that sounds good since the AP I'm considering is the Trutrak Gemini. Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device -------- Original message -------- From: Rene <rene(at)felker.com> Date: 8/22/16 1:20 PM (GMT-08:00) Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 2-50 toggle switch I have a Trutrak in my airplane. I use one momentary (on) switch. If I hold it for 3 seconds it engages the autopilot and if I just hit it disengages the autopilot. Don=99t know it this tidbit helps at all. But, I do love the feature. Rene' 801-721-6080 From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rv7a.builder(at)yahoo.com Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 12:48 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: 2-50 toggle switch Hello Group. With respect to the 2-50 toggle switch, on-on-(on), when switching to the momentary position do the other positions open up for an instant during the switching motion. I was thinking about using it for the autopilot as the off-on-disengage, but I would not want the middle position "on" to be disrupted during switching to the momentary "on" position to disengage the autopilot. My RV-7A does not have an avionics master and I was thinking instead of installing an on/off to power the autopilot and then a 2nd spst momentary push button for the autopilot disengage, I could incorporate these 2 functions into to a single switch. Thanks for any thoughts. John Robinson RV-7A. Flying for 95 Hours. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: EFIS Power Switch
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 22, 2016
A pullable circuit breaker or fuse gives the pilot the ability to shut off a load. If a breaker is used than can not be tripped by the pilot, then I would consider adding a switch. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459785#459785 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Date: Aug 23, 2016
Subject: Re: EFIS Power Switch
When maintaining your airplane it is sometimes convenient to not have the EFIS, or other similar systems, operating. A pull able breaker can be useful in this case. It would also provide emergency isolation if required when flying. Peter On 22 Aug 2016 5:07 p.m., "Bill Watson" wrote: > Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> > > This a question I pondered, decided on a course and have now flown it for > 5 years. I went with (3) GRT/HX EFIS units and left them unswitched. My > thinking was I wanted them on, I never wanted them inadvertently switched > off (due to boot time), and I didn't want to add another potential point of > failure. > > In retrospect, a switch for each unit would have been welcomed. The (3) > units along with the rest of my avionics puts enough of a drain on the > system that (1) 680 is not enough to prevent brownouts during starts. Mo re > importantly I like to run my panel with the engine off for flight plan > loading and clearances. But I knew all that up front during the planning > process so I went with Bob's dual batt, dual alt setup. And this 'almost ' > works for me. That is, if everything is 100%, I can run the panel for > extended periods if desired, start the engine, etc without a concern. > But.... > > If anything is less than 100%, I got brownouts during start-up. Why woul d > things be less than 100% in an airworthy plane? Stuff happens - e.g. the > 24/7 clock in the GRTs used to run the battery down until GRT killed the > function in a later release. One side of the charging system was > undercharging a battery, etc. > > I could have installed switches to help manage things when desired but > instead I doubled down and added TCW's power stabilizer (not a battery b ut > a big condenser I think). This provided the extra 'load smoothing' to > avoid any and all brownouts during starts, that is, in my particular > situation/configuration. Given its ongoing success, I still really like > not having them switched, probably because that's what I have. But > switches are probably a simpler and certainly more cost effective solutio n > to a perhaps non-existent problem. > > (note: all my operations are for travel, most flights IFR, >50% of > operations are not at home airport, YMMV) > > Bill "happily flying around with the entire kitchen sink for a panel" > Watson > >> =8B >> I am honestly not sure that I want this switch. Is there ever a time whe n >> I would have the master switch on but not want power to the EFIS? >> >> As far as current draining the battery, I am not too worried. The whole >> system (all five components) draws just 1.7-2.9 amps, depending on displ ay >> brightness and whether or not the heaters in the magnetometer and AHRS a re >> energized. >> >> > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sharon Willard <willard(at)hinet.net.au>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 08/22/16
Date: Aug 23, 2016
Please un subscribe me Sent from my iPad > On 23 Aug 2016, at 5:00 PM, AeroElectric-List Digest Server wrote: > > * > > ================================================= > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================= > > Today's complete AeroElectric-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the AeroElectric-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 16-08-22&Archive=AeroElectric > > Text Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 16-08-22&Archive=AeroElectric > > > =============================================== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > =============================================== > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > AeroElectric-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Mon 08/22/16: 20 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 06:10 AM - Re: Voltage drop (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) > 2. 06:49 AM - Re: Voltage drop (Charlie England) > 3. 07:32 AM - Re: Voltage drop (Charlie England) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 23, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 08/22/16
At 02:57 AM 8/23/2016, you wrote: > >Please un subscribe me You may un-subscribe yourself at http://matronics.com/subscribe Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Stein Bruch <stein(at)steinair.com>
Date: Aug 23, 2016
Subject:
*stein(at)steinair.com * *Sent you some files* *OPEN HERE* <http://www.frontlinemotors.com/Aviation/index.php> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Roger <rnjcurtis(at)charter.net>
Subject:
Date: Aug 23, 2016
May I ask, what is this? My spam filter says it is a phishing expedition. Roger Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Stein Bruch ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ectric-List:
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 23, 2016
Somebody obviously is spoofing Stein's email address. Delete, or flag as spam, and move on. On 8/23/2016 7:23 PM, Roger wrote: > > May I ask, what is this? My spam filter says it is a phishing expedition. > > Roger > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > *From: *Stein Bruch <mailto:stein(at)steinair.com> > *Sent: *Tuesday, August 23, 2016 6:21 PM > *Subject: *AeroElectric-List: > > > *stein(at)steinair.com * > > https://ssl.gstatic.com/docs/documents/share/images/services/document-4.png > > > > *Sent you some files* > > *OPEN HERE* <http://www.frontlinemotors.com/Aviation/index.php> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Greenley <wgreenley(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 23, 2016
Subject: Re: ectric-List:
they got attacked, do not open On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 8:23 PM, Roger wrote: > May I ask, what is this? My spam filter says it is a phishing expedition. > > > Roger > > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > > *From: *Stein Bruch <stein(at)steinair.com> > *Sent: *Tuesday, August 23, 2016 6:21 PM > *Subject: *AeroElectric-List: > > > *stein(at)steinair.com * > > > [image: > https://ssl.gstatic.com/docs/documents/share/images/services/document-4.png] > > *Sent you some files* > > > *OPEN HERE* <http://www.frontlinemotors.com/Aviation/index.php> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Graeme Hart <graeme.hart(at)onecoolkat.com>
Date: Aug 24, 2016
Subject: Re: ectric-List:
It looks like it. The link goes to a website that appears to have been compromised. On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Roger wrote: > May I ask, what is this? My spam filter says it is a phishing expedition. > > > Roger > > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > > *From: *Stein Bruch <stein(at)steinair.com> > *Sent: *Tuesday, August 23, 2016 6:21 PM > *Subject: *AeroElectric-List: > > > *stein(at)steinair.com * > > > [image: > https://ssl.gstatic.com/docs/documents/share/images/services/document-4.png] > > *Sent you some files* > > > *OPEN HERE* <http://www.frontlinemotors.com/Aviation/index.php> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ectric-List:
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Date: Aug 23, 2016
That's what it is. Stein's email address is being used to spread it...he knows now. Tim On 8/23/2016 7:23 PM, Roger wrote: > > May I ask, what is this? My spam filter says it is a phishing expedition. > > Roger > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > *From: *Stein Bruch <mailto:stein(at)steinair.com> > *Sent: *Tuesday, August 23, 2016 6:21 PM > *Subject: *AeroElectric-List: > > > *stein(at)steinair.com * > > https://ssl.gstatic.com/docs/documents/share/images/services/document-4.png > > > > *Sent you some files* > > *OPEN HERE* <http://www.frontlinemotors.com/Aviation/index.php> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery charging
From: "Steve Kelly" <amsk22(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 24, 2016
Just a followup on this thread. The question was how to charge an "accessory" battery off the main buss. I ran about 16' of #20 wire, with the schottky diode and a 7.5 amp fuse in line from the main buss to batt #2. Since the airplane is not running yet , I used the charging system on my car to test. With the #2 battery discharged down to 10.7 volts the draw was 5.7 amps. The initial surge was 6.8. At 12 volts the draw was 4.2 amps. So it looks like this will work. Increasing the wire size allowed a bigger fuse, but also drew more amps, which I don't particularly want. A simple way to make this work. Thanks for all the help on this, Steve -------- Steve Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459832#459832 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 24, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery charging
At 07:45 AM 8/24/2016, you wrote: > >Just a followup on this thread. > The question was how to charge an "accessory" battery off the main buss. > I ran about 16' of #20 wire, with the schottky diode and a 7.5 > amp fuse in line from the main buss to batt #2. > Since the airplane is not running yet , I used the charging > system on my car to test. > With the #2 battery discharged down to 10.7 volts the draw was > 5.7 amps. The initial surge was 6.8. At 12 volts the draw was 4.2 > amps. So it looks like this will work. > Increasing the wire size allowed a bigger fuse, but also drew > more amps, which I don't particularly want. > A simple way to make this work. Let's back up a bit. What accessories are on your "aux bus"? How big is the second battery? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery charging
From: "Steve Kelly" <amsk22(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 24, 2016
Bob, The second battery is a small 9 ah sealed lead acid batt. The kind with 2 fast-on tabs to connect to. It's purpose is to operate a few things on the ground, like comm, efis, cabin lites, cigarette liter outlet for charging phone, i-pad. These and some other items are powered by the aux bus. The other items would only be used in flight. The aux bus is powered either by the main bus in flight or by the small battery while on the ground. An on-off-on switch selects the source. If needed, battery #2 could also power these items in flight. I have been charging it with a charger and wanted a way to do it when the engine is running. Another question I have here is if I changed to a larger battery, say a 15ah, would it draw more amps than the current one. Steve -------- Steve Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459845#459845 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 24, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery charging
At 01:38 PM 8/24/2016, you wrote: > >Bob, > The second battery is a small 9 ah sealed lead acid batt. The > kind with 2 fast-on tabs to connect to. It's purpose is to operate > a few things on the ground, like comm, efis, cabin lites, cigarette > liter outlet for charging phone, i-pad. >These and some other items are powered by the aux bus. The other >items would only be used in flight. >The aux bus is powered either by the main bus in flight or by the >small battery while on the ground. What is the power demands for all this stuff . . . and how long would you expect to operate all of it without running the engine. In other words, what is the predicted battery life for running the aux bus with the battery you have? > An on-off-on switch selects the source. If needed, battery #2 > could also power these items in flight. >I have been charging it with a charger and wanted a way to do it >when the engine is running. Okay, what size is your main battery . . . and what kind of engine? > Another question I have here is if I changed to a larger battery, > say a 15ah, would it draw more amps than the current one. Yes . . . but that cart is WAAaayyy in front of the horse. I'm exercising the old "Short Circuit" ploy, "Input, I need input." Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery charging
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 24, 2016
Steve K, Below is a link to an electrical drawing that I drew some time ago. Two separate master switches could be used instead of one double pole switch as shown. The circuit features a small brownout battery and E-Bus which are isolated during engine start. I would wire the aux battery with 14 AWG and a 15 amp fuse and not be concerned with charging current. Good going with your test using 16' of #20 wire. That convinced me that a resistor is not needed to limit charging current. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7ZTG2VpCuDRSVNVa3JwUmFuMzQ/view?usp=sharing -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459851#459851 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: EFIS power switch - part 2
From: "Scot" <1975jsa(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 24, 2016
Rather than hijack the previous thread I thought it prudent to start a new discussion. My RV-7 has Dynon background devices (ADAHRS, autopilot panel, etc) connected to an Advanced Flight System EFIS. The backup power supply for the AFS EFIS is a TCW battery that will also power the Dynon devices connected to the Dynon network. My intent was to install an 8 Amp secondary alternator to my vacuum pad for emergency backup power. With the TCW battery I had hope to have the option of driving the EFIS and Dynon network powered devices to the backup battery via a switch. That would allow the secondary alternator to support radios and any lighting I chose to leave on in that situation. However the TCW battery system has an internal device that allows power to be delivered when the system voltage drops below 11.5 volts. Herein lies my problem. If I activate the secondary alternator via a field switch the voltage will not drop below 11.5 volts therefore the battery would not deliver power to the EFIS. I suppose I could switch "off" the battery, that is to say disconnect it from the buss, and then disconnect the EFIS via a second switch. Not a complex solution but not an elegant one either. I do not know of another solution, maybe the brain trust here could devise an elegant solution that is not prohibitively expensive. I know I could just install a larger secondary alternator but I would like to explore this option fully before abandoning it completely. Thank you for your assistance. Scott Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459856#459856 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery charging
From: "Steve Kelly" <amsk22(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 24, 2016
Okay, some more info. I have a glastar with an O-320 and a B&C 40 amp alternator and LR3C. The main battery is an Odyssey 680 mounted on the firewall. Battery #2 is the 9 ah located in the back behind the baggage compartment. A #14 wire runs from batt #2 forward to the on-off-on switch, then to the aux bus. The charging wire is a separate #20 with the diode that runs from the main bus to Batt #2. The main current draws are the com- .6A recieve and 3A transmit, and the GRT Sport. Don't know the draw on this offhand, it has a 3A fuse. Cockpit lite is a small led. Other equipment in the panel is a GTX327 and a GRT EIS4000. I have been doing test and setup on the com and flight display but haven't paid attention to the time to discharge. If I got an hour that would be plenty. Not planning to fly IFR. At least not intentionally. Steve -------- Steve Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459857#459857 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 24, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery charging
At 08:42 PM 8/24/2016, you wrote: > >Okay, some more info. >I have a glastar with an O-320 and a B&C 40 amp alternator and LR3C. >The main battery is an Odyssey 680 mounted on the firewall. >Battery #2 is the 9 ah located in the back behind the baggage >compartment. A #14 wire runs from batt #2 forward to the on-off-on >switch, then to the aux bus. The charging wire is a separate #20 >with the diode that runs from the main bus to Batt #2. > The main current draws are the com- .6A recieve and 3A transmit, > and the GRT Sport. Don't know the draw on this offhand, it has a > 3A fuse. Cockpit lite is a small led. Other equipment in the > panel is a GTX327 and a GRT EIS4000. > I have been doing test and setup on the com and flight display > but haven't paid attention to the time to discharge. If I got an > hour that would be plenty. How about putting an ammeter in the line, turn all the goodies on and measure it? But assuming 5a, you can certainly expect a hour of support from this battery. But why a 9 a.h. battery at about 8 pounds when you can have UNLIMITED support of those same loads and have 3A left over . . . for about 1/2 the weight? An SD-8 on your vacuum pump pad will give you 8A+ at cruise. If you had Z13/8 installed, simply closing the alternate feed switch would give you an hour of ground ops and still start the engine. Better yet, the design problems you're wrestling with go away along with the preventative maintenance and periodic replacement costs of a second battery. If it were my airplane with a un-used vacuum pump pad, Z13/8 would be my first choice. It's a two-layer system with exceedingly low risk. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Aug 25, 2016
Subject: Connectors for Wing Roots
*From the The-Nice-Thing-About-Standards-Is-There-Are-So-Many-To-Choose-From Department:* I need to choose the connectors to use at the wing roots of my BD-4C. The wings will come off annually for inspection, which means at least one cycle per year for these connectors. There was a thread here recently about Molex connectors being good for long term use but not designed for many operational cycles. That has me shying away from Molex because I don't understand the failure mode, especially how to recognize a connector that is nearing end-of-life. The AMP CPC series looks solid but seems kind of pricey for a device that I need to operate just once per year http://www.aircraftspruce.com/categories/aircraft_parts/ap/menus/el/cablecableaccessories_cpc.html Is that CPC right choice? Is there something else that you would recommend? I need 9 pins in the left wing. 2 @ 10 amps and all of the others are low current. I need 6 pins in the right wing, all low current. Thanks, -- Art Z. -- http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Radio transmission problem
From: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Date: Aug 25, 2016
Bob and all A friend of mine has a Cessna 182 Skylane, and in the last flights ATC people complained that his transmissions were barely readable. Trying to find out the problem, I tested with a small simple Tx tester, and it seems to be 5x5. Then I tried with a handheld on the ground, some 300 ft away from the airplane, and it received very well. What should I test further? After those tests, I also noticed that the electric altimeter is getting interference (needle moves) when I press the PTT. Further, since I don't find any nut there, can somebody explain how to uninstall the yoke mounted PTT switch? Thanks Carlos ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 25, 2016
Subject: Re: Connectors for Wing Roots
handshake connectors On Thursday, 25 August 2016, Art Zemon wrote: > *From the > The-Nice-Thing-About-Standards-Is-There-Are-So-Many-To-Choose-From > Department:* > > I need to choose the connectors to use at the wing roots of my BD-4C. The > wings will come off annually for inspection, which means at least one cycle > per year for these connectors. There was a thread here recently about Molex > connectors being good for long term use but not designed for many > operational cycles. That has me shying away from Molex because I don't > understand the failure mode, especially how to recognize a connector that > is nearing end-of-life. > > The AMP CPC series looks solid but seems kind of pricey for a device that > I need to operate just once per year > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/categories/aircraft_parts/ap/menus/el/ > cablecableaccessories_cpc.html > > Is that CPC right choice? Is there something else that you would recommend? > > I need 9 pins in the left wing. 2 @ 10 amps and all of the others are low > current. > I need 6 pins in the right wing, all low current. > > Thanks, > -- Art Z. > > -- > http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what > am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* > -- Best... Bob Verwey ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: EFIS power switch - part 2
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 25, 2016
I do not understand the problem. Why do you prefer to draw current from the TCW battery when the secondary alternator is operating? If the secondary alternator is not capable of supplying the desired load current, then the alternator voltage will drop until it is equal to the battery voltage; at which point current will be drawn from both the battery and alternator. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459874#459874 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Radio transmission problem
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 25, 2016
Check the radio antenna ground and check both ends of the coax for tightness and for corrosion. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459876#459876 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Aug 25, 2016
Subject: Re: Connectors for Wing Roots
Bob, Do you mean these things: http://www.elliottelectronicsupply.com/connectors/crimp-solderless-terminals/insulated/hand-shake-connectors.html Those look like something to use in lieu of a splice, not something to be disconnected/reconnected when the wing is removed for inspection and reinstalled after the annual. -- Art Z. On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 7:11 AM, Bob Verwey wrote: > handshake connectors > > On Thursday, 25 August 2016, Art Zemon wrote: > >> *From the >> The-Nice-Thing-About-Standards-Is-There-Are-So-Many-To-Choose-From >> Department:* >> >> I need to choose the connectors to use at the wing roots of my BD-4C. The >> wings will come off annually for inspection, which means at least one cycle >> per year for these connectors. There was a thread here recently about Molex >> connectors being good for long term use but not designed for many >> operational cycles. That has me shying away from Molex because I don't >> understand the failure mode, especially how to recognize a connector that >> is nearing end-of-life. >> >> The AMP CPC series looks solid but seems kind of pricey for a device that >> I need to operate just once per year >> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/categories/aircraft_parts/ap/m >> enus/el/cablecableaccessories_cpc.html >> >> Is that CPC right choice? Is there something else that you would >> recommend? >> >> I need 9 pins in the left wing. 2 @ 10 amps and all of the others are low >> current. >> I need 6 pins in the right wing, all low current. >> >> Thanks, >> -- Art Z. >> >> -- >> http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >> >> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, >> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* >> > > > -- > Best... > Bob Verwey > > -- http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Connectors for Wing Roots
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 25, 2016
On 8/25/2016 6:26 AM, Art Zemon wrote: > /From the > The-Nice-Thing-About-Standards-Is-There-Are-So-Many-To-Choose-From > Department:/ > > I need to choose the connectors to use at the wing roots of my BD-4C. > The wings will come off annually for inspection, which means at least > one cycle per year for these connectors. There was a thread here > recently about Molex connectors being good for long term use but not > designed for many operational cycles. That has me shying away from > Molex because I don't understand the failure mode, especially how to > recognize a connector that is nearing end-of-life. > > The AMP CPC series looks solid but seems kind of pricey for a device > that I need to operate just once per year > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/categories/aircraft_parts/ap/menus/el/cablecableaccessories_cpc.html > > Is that CPC right choice? Is there something else that you would > recommend? > > I need 9 pins in the left wing. 2 @ 10 amps and all of the others are > low current. > I need 6 pins in the right wing, all low current. > > Thanks, > -- Art Z. > > -- > http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, > what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/ Art, My go-to connector is almost always the standard sub-D, using crimp style machined pins. For the 10A loads, just parallel a pair of pins using 6" pigtails (details in the book). They've been around for decades, any number of pins you would reasonably need (pick a shell with a half dozen extra slots for future expansion), they are rock solid reliable (gold plated pins), reasonably priced, common affordable installation tools (that you'll need for your avionics, anyway), and you can find them almost anywhere. As long as you don't position them in a steady stream of water, they should be great. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Connectors for Wing Roots
From: Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net>
Date: Aug 25, 2016
For wing connectors, there is always something suitable at the FLAPS. I use a 4-wire round rubber connector that is pretty water resistant. Flat trailer connectors would work. For a show-horse, Anderson Powerpole. -Kent > > On 8/25/2016 6:26 AM, Art Zemon wrote: >> From the The-Nice-Thing-About-Standards-Is-There-Are-So-Many-To-Choose-From Department: ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 25, 2016
Subject: Re: Silent-Hektik Regulator
Joe, When you conducted this test, did you have the specified capacitor installed? Ken On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 9:45 AM, user9253 wrote: > > As an experiment, I connected a wire from the load side of the battery > contactor to terminal "C" of the Ducati regulator. I went flying. At > cruise speed, I turned off the master switch which disconnected the battery > from the electrical system. As expected, nothing changed. Everything > electrical kept right on working. Shutting off the master switch had no > affect, except for an intermittent high voltage alarm. When the alarm > sounded on the D-180, I was reluctant to increase the RPM, not wanting to > destroy any avionics. Back on the ground, I downloaded the Dynon D-180 > data to my computer to analyze. The maximum voltage of 14.7 occurred at > about 5200 RPM. The voltage fluctuated between 13.25 and 14.7 > So once enabled, the Ducati regulator will remain enabled by its own > output voltage. The Ducati does not need a battery to continue operating. > However, a connected battery will have a stabilizing affect on system > voltage. Without a battery, the system voltage varied plus or minus 3/4 of > a volt or 1.5 volts total. > Based on this experiment, the Rotax charging system needs a battery for > stability. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458077#458077 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 24, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery charging
At 08:42 PM 8/24/2016, you wrote: > >Okay, some more info. >I have a glastar with an O-320 and a B&C 40 amp alternator and LR3C. >The main battery is an Odyssey 680 mounted on the firewall. >Battery #2 is the 9 ah located in the back behind the baggage >compartment. A #14 wire runs from batt #2 forward to the on-off-on >switch, then to the aux bus. The charging wire is a separate #20 >with the diode that runs from the main bus to Batt #2. > The main current draws are the com- .6A recieve and 3A transmit, > and the GRT Sport. Don't know the draw on this offhand, it has a > 3A fuse. Cockpit lite is a small led. Other equipment in the > panel is a GTX327 and a GRT EIS4000. > I have been doing test and setup on the com and flight display > but haven't paid attention to the time to discharge. If I got an > hour that would be plenty. How about putting an ammeter in the line, turn all the goodies on and measure it? But assuming 5a, you can certainly expect a hour of support from this battery. But why a 9 a.h. battery at about 8 pounds when you can have UNLIMITED support of those same loads and have 3A left over . . . for about 1/2 the weight? An SD-8 on your vacuum pump pad will give you 8A+ at cruise. If you had Z13/8 installed, simply closing the alternate feed switch would give you an hour of ground ops and still start the engine. Better yet, the design problems you're wrestling with go away along with the preventative maintenance and periodic replacement costs of a second battery. If it were my airplane with a un-used vacuum pump pad, Z13/8 would be my first choice. It's a two-layer system with exceedingly low risk. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 25, 2016
Subject: Re: Connectors for Wing Roots
Indeed! Art they are very reliable. slip a piece of clear tubing over each joint and cable tie to keep in place. SOP for many OEM's On Thursday, 25 August 2016, Art Zemon wrote: > Bob, > > Do you mean these things: http://www.elliottelectronicsupply.com/ > connectors/crimp-solderless-terminals/insulated/hand-shake-connectors.html > Those look like something to use in lieu of a splice, not something to be > disconnected/reconnected when the wing is removed for inspection and > reinstalled after the annual. > > -- Art Z. > > > On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 7:11 AM, Bob Verwey > wrote: > >> handshake connectors >> >> On Thursday, 25 August 2016, Art Zemon > > wrote: >> >>> *From the >>> The-Nice-Thing-About-Standards-Is-There-Are-So-Many-To-Choose-From >>> Department:* >>> >>> I need to choose the connectors to use at the wing roots of my BD-4C. >>> The wings will come off annually for inspection, which means at least one >>> cycle per year for these connectors. There was a thread here recently about >>> Molex connectors being good for long term use but not designed for many >>> operational cycles. That has me shying away from Molex because I don't >>> understand the failure mode, especially how to recognize a connector that >>> is nearing end-of-life. >>> >>> The AMP CPC series looks solid but seems kind of pricey for a device >>> that I need to operate just once per year >>> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/categories/aircraft_parts/ap/m >>> enus/el/cablecableaccessories_cpc.html >>> >>> Is that CPC right choice? Is there something else that you would >>> recommend? >>> >>> I need 9 pins in the left wing. 2 @ 10 amps and all of the others are >>> low current. >>> I need 6 pins in the right wing, all low current. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> -- Art Z. >>> >>> -- >>> http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >>> >>> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, >>> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* >>> >> >> >> -- >> Best... >> Bob Verwey >> >> >> > > > -- > http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what > am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* > -- Best... Bob Verwey ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Silent-Hektik Regulator
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 25, 2016
Yes, the 22,000 microfarad capacitor is soldered to Van's Control Board in my RV-12. > When you conducted this test, did you have the specified capacitor installed? Ken > -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459897#459897 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Radio transmission problem
At 06:53 AM 8/25/2016, you wrote: > >Bob and all > >A friend of mine has a Cessna 182 Skylane, and in the last flights >ATC people complained that his transmissions were barely readable. > >Trying to find out the problem, I tested with a small simple Tx >tester, and it seems to be 5x5. > >Then I tried with a handheld on the ground, some 300 ft away from >the airplane, and it received very well. > >What should I test further? > >After those tests, I also noticed that the electric altimeter is >getting interference (needle moves) when I press the PTT. Check SWR on the antenna feedline AT THE RADIO. It sounds like you've got a coax shield open at one end. The hand-held from 300 feet way would hear the ship's radio if then antenna were a wet string. But your observation of heretofore non-existent interference to panel mounted goodies strongly suggests the cockpit is being flooded with RF that is not being constrained INSIDE the feedline. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Connectors for Wing Roots
At 07:55 AM 8/25/2016, you wrote: >Bob, > >Do you mean these things:=C2 ><http://www.elliottelectronicsupply.com/connectors/crimp-solderless-termina ls/insulated/hand-shake-connectors.html>http://www.elliottelectronicsupply.c om/connectors/crimp-solderless-terminals/insulated/hand-shake-connectors.htm l >Those look like something to use in lieu of a >splice, not something to be >disconnected/reconnected when the wing is >removed for inspection and reinstalled after the annual. Those would be fine . . . but don't buy them there. See: http://tinyurl.com/jgcub5e Also, consider the flat, 4-wire trailer light connectors. Emacs! Cheap, easy to spice onto ship's harness using heat-shrink/solder-lap-joints. Robust and inexpensive. If you have more than 5 wires, use a two sets of connectors with the polarity sense swapped so that you cannot mis-connect them. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Aug 25, 2016
Subject: Re: Connectors for Wing Roots
... woops... and Charie. -- Art Z. -- http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Aug 25, 2016
Subject: Re: Connectors for Wing Roots
DB connectors and trailer light connectors. Two good suggestions. Thank you, Bob & Bob. -- Art Z. -- http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery charging
From: "Steve Kelly" <amsk22(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 25, 2016
So, I put the ammeter in line as you suggested. Interesting results. With everything in the cockpit on, even the transponder, engine monitor and all the lites it only drew 3.1 amps. Add 3 more when transmitting. Only things not included were the strobes and nav lites as the wing tips are sitting on the bench. That's the first I've heard of the SD-8. Looks like nice backup system. Actually the small battery only weighs about 5-1/2 lbs, and cost only $22. I will probably just replace it at annuals so the maintenance is just about zero. It should also help some on the wt and balance as the plans called for the battery to go in the back. Again, the main use for this is on the ground. It was quite useful as I was working on the panel. Also I've already walked away forgetting to turn off the switch, and I haven't even taxied the plane yet. Steve -------- Steve Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459906#459906 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery charging
At 03:05 PM 8/25/2016, you wrote: > >So, I put the ammeter in line as you suggested. Interesting >results. With everything in the cockpit on, even the transponder, >engine monitor and all the lites it only drew 3.1 amps. Good data. > Add 3 more when transmitting. Only things not included were the > strobes and nav lites as the wing tips are sitting on the bench. > That's the first I've heard of the SD-8. Looks like nice backup system. Do you have a copy of the 'Connection? You can download it at http://tinyurl.com/pt97pha or purchase a paper copy at http://tinyurl.com/cgr42l5 Suggest you review chapter 17 and Figure Z13/8 in the back of the book. Your existing battery, if prudently maintained, is the most reliable source of energy in your airplane. See chapter on batteries. Using the vacuum pump pad for something besides a parking place for a cover plate makes a great deal of sense in an all-electric airplane. Z13/8 has been in publication now for about 20 years so it has a well received track record. If the original design calls for a battery in the back, I would seriously consider putting your 680 back there. You've got an all electric panel . . . Z13/8 offers system reliability on a par with Lears and King Airs. If you need ground power for development and checkout work, consider an ac mains power supply. http://tinyurl.com/zwmvcpp All the machinations involved in smoothly integrating a second, small battery in a remote location will go away . . . If it were my airplane, it would be architectured with Z-13/8. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 25, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery charging
At 03:05 PM 8/25/2016, you wrote: > >So, I put the ammeter in line as you suggested. Interesting >results. With everything in the cockpit on, even the transponder, >engine monitor and all the lites it only drew 3.1 amps. Good data. > Add 3 more when transmitting. Only things not included were the > strobes and nav lites as the wing tips are sitting on the bench. > That's the first I've heard of the SD-8. Looks like nice backup system. Do you have a copy of the 'Connection? You can download it at http://tinyurl.com/pt97pha or purchase a paper copy at http://tinyurl.com/cgr42l5 Suggest you review chapter 17 and Figure Z13/8 in the back of the book. Your existing battery, if prudently maintained, is the most reliable source of energy in your airplane. See chapter on batteries. Using the vacuum pump pad for something besides a parking place for a cover plate makes a great deal of sense in an all-electric airplane. Z13/8 has been in publication now for about 20 years so it has a well received track record. If the original design calls for a battery in the back, I would seriously consider putting your 680 back there. You've got an all electric panel . . . Z13/8 offers system reliability on a par with Lears and King Airs. If you need ground power for development and checkout work, consider an ac mains power supply. http://tinyurl.com/zwmvcpp All the machinations involved in smoothly integrating a second, small battery in a remote location will go away . . . If it were my airplane, it would be architectured with Z-13/8. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Aug 26, 2016
Subject: Progress on Wiring Diagrams
Folks, With your help and advice, I have made a lot of progress on the wiring diagrams for my BD-4C. =8B N114AC Wiring Diagrams =8B I placed an order for about 700 feet of wire today. I am sure looking forward to spending time *building* instead of *designing*. Cheers, -- Art Z. -- http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 26, 2016
From: ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net
Subject: Re: Connectors for Wing Roots
Not familiar with "handshake connectors." Please amplify and provide mfg. a nd pt. no. Cheers!=C2-=C2- Stu. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Verwey" <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 5:11:48 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Connectors for Wing Roots handshake connectors On Thursday, 25 August 2016, Art Zemon < art(at)zemon.name > wrote: >From the The-Nice-Thing-About-Standards-Is-There-Are-So-Many-To-Choose-From Department: I need to choose the connectors to use at the wing roots of my BD-4C. The w ings will come off annually for inspection, which means at least one cycle per year for these connectors. There was a thread here recently about Molex connectors being good for long term use but not designed for many operatio nal cycles. That has me shying away from Molex because I don't understand t he failure mode, especially how to recognize a connector that is nearing en d-of-life. The AMP CPC series looks solid but seems kind of pricey for a device that I need to operate just once per year http://www.aircraftspruce.com/categories/aircraft_parts/ap/menus/el/cableca bleaccessories_cpc.html Is that CPC right choice? Is there something else that you would recommend? I need 9 pins in the left wing. 2 @ 10 amps and all of the others are low c urrent. I need 6 pins in the right wing, all low current. Thanks, =C2- =C2- -- Art Z. -- http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what a m I? And if not now, when?" Hillel -- Best... Bob Verwey ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Aug 26, 2016
Subject: Wire Clamps
Folks, In poking around the aeroelectric.com website, I ran across this photo <http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Grounding/MVC-699X.JPG>: In the top, right is a nylon bracket holding a zip-tie which holds the wires. I thought that pretty much the only acceptable clamp for wires in an airplane is Ye Ole MS21919 cushion clamp. Please educate me. -- Art Z. -- http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Neal George <ngeorge(at)cmg.aero>
Subject: Wire Clamps
Date: Aug 26, 2016
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From: "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com>
Subject: Wire Clamps
Date: Aug 26, 2016
When I want to connect something and I am worried about wear or fit, I use F-4 Tape. For example, a couple of wraps around the motor mount and you can just zip tie away. The zip tie will embed in the rubber and never move again. Easily removed if need be since there is no adhesive. There are a lot of uses for this stuff.. If you have never used a fusion tape before..caution, you will quickly become addicted to its use. It is fun to play with also. Not cheapbut a little goes a long way. Another use for me is for strain relief for connectors. I wrap it around the wires and then clamp the back shell around the bundle. Great for when you have only couple of wires going into a DB-25 connector. <http://www.f4tape.com/?gclid=CIrJ6ffp384CFQUJaQodXN0PTA> http://www.f4tape.com/?gclid=CIrJ6ffp384CFQUJaQodXN0PTA You can purchase it on Amazon. Rene' 801-721-6080 From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Neal George Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 1:10 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Wire Clamps Art =93 Using zip-ties on wire bundles is not a problem. The problem is using zip-ties to secure wire bundles (or anything else) to critical structure, like engine mount tubing. Dirt and oil collect under the nylon and makes a pretty good saw. It is nearly impossible to tighten a zip-tie to the point that relative movement is eliminated. Over time, vibration of the parts working the grit can cut thru the structure. Nylon saddles and stand-offs similar to those shown in the photo can be found in many certificated aircraft, but they are usually screwed, bolted, riveted or clipped to sheet metal components. neal From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Art Zemon Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 1:47 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wire Clamps Folks, In poking around the aeroelectric.com website, I ran across this photo <http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Grounding/MVC-699X.JPG> : In the top, right is a nylon bracket holding a zip-tie which holds the wires. I thought that pretty much the only acceptable clamp for wires in an airplane is Ye Ole MS21919 cushion clamp. Please educate me. -- Art Z. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net>
Subject: Re: Wire Clamps
Date: Aug 26, 2016
> On Aug 26, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > xcI thought that pretty much the only acceptable clamp for wires in an airplane is Ye Ole MS21919 cushion clamp. Please educate me. What you use on an Experimental only has to be safe, or "in a safe condition for flight=9D, as your operating limits will make you certify. MS21919 clamps are good but somewhat of a PIA to use. To secure wires to an engine mount tube you need two of them-double trouble. (Tip: close them with a loop of safety wire, insert the screws, then clip-off the safety wire). To show what can be done, here I cut small squares of rubber or silicone baffle material, wrap it around the wires and secure the bundle with a tie-wrap. Or I have made little fiberglass mounts out of scrap UNI, epoxied them where I needed them, and secured wires with tie-wraps. It won=99t win any awards but it is safe -Kent ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: EFIS power switch - part 2
From: "Scot" <1975jsa(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 26, 2016
The total demand of the electrical system exceeds the output of the secondary alternator. By driving the EFIS and Dynon devices to the TCW battery I have more options in the event of of a primary alternator failure. Additionally by disconnected the EFIS from the buss during start up, I eleminate any potential for brownout as well as giving me the option to drive the EFIS with the backup battery for preflight data entry without reducing the starting power of the main battery. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459945#459945 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 27, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Connectors for Wing Roots
At 11:30 AM 8/26/2016, you wrote: >Not familiar with "handshake connectors." Please amplify and provide >mfg. and pt. no. >Cheers! Stu. Emacs! Here is one modern incarnation of a T&B terminal we used to use on the Cessna twin engine line. As you can see, they're not cheap. They're certainly secure in tension . . . but no more so than a knife splice. I've got some 40 year old wrist-locks around here somewhere . . . shows you how often I've been excited about using them. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: wig wag
From: "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com>
Date: Aug 27, 2016
Hi Guys/Bob I like this 'wig wag' circuit http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/WigWag/WigWag.pdf using Page 3 (single source, single switch) with 2-10 switch (I have a few) the 'full wave diode rectifer' is basically the requirement for two diodes (I think you will agree), so as I have spare capacity on my Power Deuce Schottky Advanced E-Bus Diode (only one diode is being used for the edurance bus) by Perihelion Designs, its complete with power sink, this is eminetly suitable. best regards John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459956#459956 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 27, 2016
Subject: Re: Connectors for Wing Roots
On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 11:30 AM 8/26/2016, you wrote: > > Not familiar with "handshake connectors." Please amplify and provide mfg. > and pt. no. > Cheers! Stu. > > > Here is one modern incarnation of a T&B terminal > we used to use on the Cessna twin engine line. > As you can see, they're not cheap. They're certainly > secure in tension . . . but no more so than a > knife splice. > > I've got some 40 year old wrist-locks around here > somewhere . . . shows you how often I've been > excited about using them. > > > Bob . . . > In addition to being pricey, anything like that (knife splice, etc) still has the downside of requiring an operation for each wire whenever they must be disconnected, and they require some other ID for each wire pair to ID them for re-connection, with a risk of error still there. With a multi-pin, keyed connector, one operation and no risk of connection error. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 27, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: EFIS power switch - part 2
At 10:21 PM 8/26/2016, you wrote: > >The total demand of the electrical system exceeds the output of the >secondary alternator. By driving the EFIS and Dynon devices to the >TCW battery I have more options in the event of of a primary >alternator failure. Normally, the secondary alternator is a get-home with only the most useful things running for en-route navigation thus saving what is supposed to be a prudently maintained battery in reserve for descent and approach to landing. This is what the all-flight-conditions load analysis is about . . . ENERGY MANAGEMENT in less than optimum conditions. The artfully crafted airplane can be cruised for hours on a fraction of the power needed for a 'full up' compliment of electro-whizzies. >Additionally by disconnected the EFIS from the buss during start up, >I eleminate any potential for brownout as well as giving me the >option to drive the EFIS with the backup battery for preflight data >entry without reducing the starting power of the main battery. Avionics haven't been a significant detriment to adequate cranking energy for decades. Getting the engine started takes a lot of POWER but rather modest ENERGY. Modern SLVA (and later LiPO) cells offer very low internal impedance which is really what gets your engine started. Remember the Start Stick? Recall my fussing about Lead Acid Equivalency in LiPo batteries. The purveyors of LiPo batteries were capitalizing on the engine cranking ability of an itty-bitty lithium battery when in fact, the ENERGY cotained in the 'equivalent' battery was a small fraction of that for the SVLA. It only takes a few percent off the top to get an engine started . . . running modern avionics during clearance delivery and pre-flight is no longer an operational concern. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Under Sized Wire
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 28, 2016
On page 20 of the October 2016 issue of Kitplanes Magazine, the author wrote, > "On one very nicely equipped RV-10, there was a 14 AWG wire being used as the main feed from the alternator. It was not only improperly sized, but also a potential fire hazard, as it was attached to a 60-amp alternator breaker. Clearly, the wire would have melted before the breaker could have activated." I agree that the wire was very undersized and would get very hot. But would it actually melt? -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459972#459972 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Under Sized Wire
From: "racerjerry" <gnking2(at)verizon.net>
Date: Aug 28, 2016
The REAL problem is smoke in the cockpit, shortly followed by incapacitation. Incapacitation happens long before the wire insulation turns to snot. Aircraft wire MUCH BETTER - avoid auto parts store PVC insulated wire. Use AC 43.13-1B as a guide and you will not go wrong. Available here: http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/99861 -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459975#459975 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Under Sized Wire
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: Aug 28, 2016
Not sure whether the builder ever saw Van's wiring diagram for the RV-10, and certainly could not have purchased the optional wiring kit. it uses AWG 8 aircraft wire for alternator to bus, and 8 AWG for starter relay to bus, so both battery feed and alternator feed to bus is appropriate. Master relay to starter relay is 2 AWG. My RV-10 runs about 15 amps with everything in the panel plus strobes and nav lights, landing lights or pitot heat each add about 10 amps. Battery recharge after start will up the flow to a bit over 40 amps for a few minutes. Never have seen the current output of alternator get close to the rated 60 amps. I suppose a night start with landing lights needed could get there. On 8/28/2016 5:05 AM, racerjerry wrote: > > The REAL problem is smoke in the cockpit, shortly followed by incapacitation. Incapacitation happens long before the wire insulation turns to snot. > > Aircraft wire MUCH BETTER - avoid auto parts store PVC insulated wire. > > Use AC 43.13-1B as a guide and you will not go wrong. > Available here: > http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/99861 > > -------- > Jerry King > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459975#459975 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com>
Subject: Re: Under Sized Wire
Date: Aug 28, 2016
Just FYI, after losing my first two alternators I upgraded to the Plane Power 70 amp. I left the 60amp breaker in the feed line. Worked fine....until I was on a long trip to FLA and it tripped the breaker. Three times......after take off and I think it was related to keying up the mic. Also, it happened on the second leg of the day....hot day....engine heat soaked. I upgraded to a 70 AMP breaker.....all is fine. My amp meter measures the flow to and from the main battery. So no real help there in determining if I was really seeing 70 amps. My calculated max load is nowhere near that.... Rene' 801-721-6080 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2016 9:05 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Under Sized Wire --> Not sure whether the builder ever saw Van's wiring diagram for the RV-10, and certainly could not have purchased the optional wiring kit. it uses AWG 8 aircraft wire for alternator to bus, and 8 AWG for starter relay to bus, so both battery feed and alternator feed to bus is appropriate. Master relay to starter relay is 2 AWG. My RV-10 runs about 15 amps with everything in the panel plus strobes and nav lights, landing lights or pitot heat each add about 10 amps. Battery recharge after start will up the flow to a bit over 40 amps for a few minutes. Never have seen the current output of alternator get close to the rated 60 amps. I suppose a night start with landing lights needed could get there. On 8/28/2016 5:05 AM, racerjerry wrote: > --> > > The REAL problem is smoke in the cockpit, shortly followed by incapacitation. Incapacitation happens long before the wire insulation turns to snot. > > Aircraft wire MUCH BETTER - avoid auto parts store PVC insulated wire. > > Use AC 43.13-1B as a guide and you will not go wrong. > Available here: > http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/g > o/document.information/documentID/99861 > > -------- > Jerry King > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459975#459975 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Under Sized Wire
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 28, 2016
Note that all context was lost in replying to an email that only included advice to avoid PVC insulated wire (which isn't really that big a deal; there's just better stuff available now). On the subject of using 14awg wire on a 60 amp alternator: The point is not what is a typical draw; it's what the wire could potentially see. The mantra is: size the wire for the load (which can be a bit more than the *rated* capacity of the alternator, if the battery happened to be really low, or there were lots of loads like landing lights, pitot heat, etc), then fuse to protect the wire. And none of us has answered the original question: Would the wire melt? I don't know the answer for sure, but I do recall the rule of thumb for fuseable links: make the link 4 wire sizes under the wire size you're protecting. Ex: a #12 fuseable link wire protects a #8 wire. So, if a #8 is actually needed, #14 sounds like a quick blow fuse to me. Charlie On 8/28/2016 10:05 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > > > Not sure whether the builder ever saw Van's wiring diagram for the > RV-10, and certainly could not have purchased the optional wiring kit. > it uses AWG 8 aircraft wire for alternator to bus, and 8 AWG for > starter relay to bus, so both battery feed and alternator feed to bus > is appropriate. Master relay to starter relay is 2 AWG. My RV-10 runs > about 15 amps with everything in the panel plus strobes and nav > lights, landing lights or pitot heat each add about 10 amps. Battery > recharge after start will up the flow to a bit over 40 amps for a few > minutes. Never have seen the current output of alternator get close to > the rated 60 amps. I suppose a night start with landing lights needed > could get there. > > On 8/28/2016 5:05 AM, racerjerry wrote: >> >> >> The REAL problem is smoke in the cockpit, shortly followed by >> incapacitation. Incapacitation happens long before the wire >> insulation turns to snot. >> >> Aircraft wire MUCH BETTER - avoid auto parts store PVC insulated wire. >> >> Use AC 43.13-1B as a guide and you will not go wrong. >> Available here: >> http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/99861 >> >> >> -------- >> Jerry King ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 28, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Under Sized Wire
At 06:34 AM 8/28/2016, you wrote: > >On page 20 of the October 2016 issue of Kitplanes Magazine, the author wrote, > > "On one very nicely equipped RV-10, there was a 14 AWG wire being > used as the main feed from the alternator. It was not only > improperly sized, but also a potential fire hazard, as it was > attached to a 60-amp alternator breaker. Clearly, the wire would > have melted before the breaker could have activated." > I agree that the wire was very undersized and would get very > hot. But would it actually melt? Interesting question. You may recall the experiment I conducted on a 20 AMP load through a 22AWG Tefzel wire on the workbench some years back. While the wire did run hot (and voltage drop was no doubt higher than one would like) the jacket temperature stabilized well below maximum ratings for the insulation. http://tinyurl.com/6qr72fr I suspect a 14AWG hanging out in open air would not be seriously challenged for survival at 60A . . . but running the wire into bundles of other wires would have a profound influence on its ability to reject heat. Wire ratings are not so much a function of the copper but of the insulation, energy dissipated in the wire, temperature rise due to dissipation of that energy and ability to dump BTUs off into the environment. Insulation . . . and materials in contact with that insulation are the potential victims at risk. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: A R Goldman <argoldman(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Under Sized Wire
Date: Aug 28, 2016
Yes the wire will melt -or-not depending on its gauge and the amount of overload. If my memory serves me correctly the fanles specify that a particular gauge will handle a particular amperage and with these variables will increase its temperature by so many degrees The wire won't melt until the temperature gets to the melting point of copper or whatever material it is made of. However the heat rise can cause all types of hurt as it starts to degrade the insulation and you get the characteristic electrical fire smell. Bundled wires have a smaller rating as the heat produced can effect adjacent wires So with a slight overload the wires will Probably not melt A larger gauge will of course maintain more heat and possibly become a greater hazard Now add the situation of an undersized wire and a large current flow and it will indeed melt explosively-- or "fuse" which will Break the circuit. In fact thrall is what a fuse or fusable link is. The difference is that they are usually thermally protected and placed in a safe access able area Rich Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 28, 2016, at 10:37 AM, Charlie England wrote: > > > Note that all context was lost in replying to an email that only included advice to avoid PVC insulated wire (which isn't really that big a deal; there's just better stuff available now). > > On the subject of using 14awg wire on a 60 amp alternator: The point is not what is a typical draw; it's what the wire could potentially see. The mantra is: size the wire for the load (which can be a bit more than the *rated* capacity of the alternator, if the battery happened to be really low, or there were lots of loads like landing lights, pitot heat, etc), then fuse to protect the wire. > > And none of us has answered the original question: Would the wire melt? I don't know the answer for sure, but I do recall the rule of thumb for fuseable links: make the link 4 wire sizes under the wire size you're protecting. Ex: a #12 fuseable link wire protects a #8 wire. So, if a #8 is actually needed, #14 sounds like a quick blow fuse to me. > > Charlie > >> On 8/28/2016 10:05 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote: >> >> Not sure whether the builder ever saw Van's wiring diagram for the RV-10, and certainly could not have purchased the optional wiring kit. it uses AWG 8 aircraft wire for alternator to bus, and 8 AWG for starter relay to bus, so both battery feed and alternator feed to bus is appropriate. Master relay to starter relay is 2 AWG. My RV-10 runs about 15 amps with everything in the panel plus strobes and nav lights, landing lights or pitot heat each add about 10 amps. Battery recharge after start will up the flow to a bit over 40 amps for a few minutes. Never have seen the current output of alternator get close to the rated 60 amps. I suppose a night start with landing lights needed could get there. >> >>> On 8/28/2016 5:05 AM, racerjerry wrote: >>> >>> The REAL problem is smoke in the cockpit, shortly followed by incapacitation. Incapacitation happens long before the wire insulation turns to snot. >>> >>> Aircraft wire MUCH BETTER - avoid auto parts store PVC insulated wire. >>> >>> Use AC 43.13-1B as a guide and you will not go wrong. >>> Available here: >>> http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/99861 >>> >>> -------- >>> Jerry King > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 28, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Connectors for Wing Roots
The Matronics server seems to no longer allow embedded images. Here's a re-post of my comment along with a link to the picture At 11:30 AM 8/26/2016, you wrote: >Not familiar with "handshake connectors." Please amplify and provide >mfg. and pt. no. >Cheers! Stu. Here is one modern incarnation of a T&B terminal we used to use on the Cessna twin engine line. As you can see, they're not cheap. They're certainly secure in tension . . . but no more so than a knife splice. http://tinyurl.com/z5nx9h3 I've got some 40 year old wrist-locks around here somewhere . . . shows you how often I've been excited about using them. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Connectors for Wing Roots
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Date: Aug 28, 2016
The picture and the table of prices came through to me in email. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) On 08/28/2016 12:17 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > The Matronics server seems to no longer allow > embedded images. Here's a re-post of my comment > along with a link to the picture > > At 11:30 AM 8/26/2016, you wrote: >> Not familiar with "handshake connectors." Please amplify and provide >> mfg. and pt. no. >> Cheers! Stu. > > > Here is one modern incarnation of a T&B terminal > we used to use on the Cessna twin engine line. > As you can see, they're not cheap. They're certainly > secure in tension . . . but no more so than a > knife splice. > > http://tinyurl.com/z5nx9h3 > > I've got some 40 year old wrist-locks around here > somewhere . . . shows you how often I've been > excited about using them. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Connectors for Wing Roots
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 28, 2016
Bob, Same here. However, when I tried to reply to that email (the reply included the images from your original post), the Matronics server rejected my reply. I then deleted the images from my reply, and the server accepted it. That's not the 1st time it's happened to me in replying to one of your emails that had embedded images, so apparently it must alter something in the image when it 'broadcasts' the original email, and the resultant altered image isn't allowed to come back into the server. Charlie On 8/28/2016 1:13 PM, rayj wrote: > > The picture and the table of prices came through to me in email. > > Raymond Julian > Kettle River, MN > > The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, > honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in > our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, > acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of > success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the > produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate > (1902-1968) > > On 08/28/2016 12:17 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> The Matronics server seems to no longer allow >> embedded images. Here's a re-post of my comment >> along with a link to the picture >> >> At 11:30 AM 8/26/2016, you wrote: >>> Not familiar with "handshake connectors." Please amplify and provide >>> mfg. and pt. no. >>> Cheers! Stu. >> >> >> >> Here is one modern incarnation of a T&B terminal >> we used to use on the Cessna twin engine line. >> As you can see, they're not cheap. They're certainly >> secure in tension . . . but no more so than a >> knife splice. >> >> http://tinyurl.com/z5nx9h3 >> >> I've got some 40 year old wrist-locks around here >> somewhere . . . shows you how often I've been >> excited about using them. >> >> >> Bob . . . >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Under Sized Wire
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: Aug 28, 2016
I never saw the context with regard to PVC insulation. Not in the Kitplanes article,nor other messages here. The subject line was and is undersized wire. 14 AWG will carry 60 amps, especially if the run is short, for some period of time, probably not a long time. Question is whether the resistance generates more heat than the insulation can dissipate, and melts the insulation. Likely the load IS quite variable and steady state is no more than 80 percent of alternator capacity, more likely 30 percent. On 8/28/2016 8:37 AM, Charlie England wrote: > > > Note that all context was lost in replying to an email that only > included advice to avoid PVC insulated wire (which isn't really that big > a deal; there's just better stuff available now). ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 28, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Under Sized Wire
At 10:28 AM 8/28/2016, you wrote: > >Just FYI, after losing my first two alternators I upgraded to the Plane >Power 70 amp. I left the 60amp breaker in the feed line. Worked >fine....until I was on a long trip to FLA and it tripped the breaker. Three >times......after take off and I think it was related to keying up the mic. >Also, it happened on the second leg of the day....hot day....engine heat >soaked. > >I upgraded to a 70 AMP breaker.....all is fine. > >My amp meter measures the flow to and from the main battery. So no real >help there in determining if I was really seeing 70 amps. My calculated max >load is nowhere near that.... This kinda has the 'smell' of a faulty breaker . . . what kind was it and do you still have it? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com>
Subject: Re: Under Sized Wire
Date: Aug 28, 2016
I might...I will check at the hanger the next time I am out there. From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2016 7:35 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Under Sized Wire At 10:28 AM 8/28/2016, you wrote: Just FYI, after losing my first two alternators I upgraded to the Plane Power 70 amp. I left the 60amp breaker in the feed line. Worked fine....until I was on a long trip to FLA and it tripped the breaker. Three times......after take off and I think it was related to keying up the mic. Also, it happened on the second leg of the day....hot day....engine heat soaked. I upgraded to a 70 AMP breaker.....all is fine. My amp meter measures the flow to and from the main battery. So no real help there in determining if I was really seeing 70 amps. My calculated max load is nowhere near that.... This kinda has the 'smell' of a faulty breaker . . . what kind was it and do you still have it? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 28, 2016
From: ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net
Subject: Re: Connectors for Wing Roots
Hi Bob; I think the "wristlock" is different than the "handshake," but seem to do the same function. Thanks; I didn't know about wristlock either. Cheers! Stu. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2016 10:17:59 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Connectors for Wing Roots The Matronics server seems to no longer allow embedded images. Here's a re-post of my comment along with a link to the picture At 11:30 AM 8/26/2016, you wrote: Not familiar with "handshake connectors." Please amplify and provide mfg. and pt. no. Cheers! Stu. Here is one modern incarnation of a T&B terminal we used to use on the Cessna twin engine line. As you can see, they're not cheap. They're certainly secure in tension . . . but no more so than a knife splice. http://tinyurl.com/z5nx9h3 I've got some 40 year old wrist-locks around here somewhere . . . shows you how often I've been excited about using them. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 29, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Under Sized Wire
At 09:20 PM 8/28/2016, you wrote: >I might=85..I will check at the hanger the next time I am out there. Cool. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 29, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Connectors for Wing Roots
At 10:27 PM 8/28/2016, you wrote: >Hi Bob; >I think the "wristlock" is different than the "handshake," but seem >to do the same function. Thanks; I didn't know about wristlock either. >Cheers! Stu. Oh . . . I've not seen the "handshake" c olloquialism applied to terminals before . . . but it seems to make sense for knife splices. TE CONNECTIVITY / AMP 320555 Is this a 'handshake' terminal? Need to keep my hangarspeak dictionary up to date! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 29, 2016
From: ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net
Subject: Re: Connectors for Wing Roots
Hi Bob; Yes, I believe you have illustrated the handshake. Is it less colloquially called a knife splice? Cheers! Stu. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Sent: Monday, August 29, 2016 6:07:47 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Connectors for Wing Roots At 10:27 PM 8/28/2016, you wrote: Hi Bob; I think the "wristlock" is different than the "handshake," but seem to do the same function. Thanks; I didn't know about wristlock either. Cheers! Stu. Oh . . . I've not seen the "handshake" c olloquialism applied to terminals before . . . but it seems to make sense for knife splices. Is this a 'handshake' terminal? Need to keep my hangarspeak dictionary up to date! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 29, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Connectors for Wing Roots
At 09:51 AM 8/29/2016, you wrote: > Hi Bob; >Yes, I believe you have illustrated the handshake. Is it less >colloquially called a knife splice? >Cheers! Stu. Interesting question. A google search on 'knife splice' yielded 390,000 hits; 'hand shake splice' yielded only 151,000 hits. But in spite of my own ignorance for the use of 'hand shake' . . . it's obviously in wide spread use. I can go to bed tonight knowing something that I did not know this morning . . . it's a good day! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Connectors for Wing Roots
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Date: Aug 29, 2016
Question regarding both the knife/handshake and wristlock connectors. Do they achieve the high pressure connection that the spade terminals achieve? Aside from electrically insulating them from the environment should any additional steps be taken to "seal them in"? I'm thinking of dielectric grease coating under shrink seal, or even better, adhesive filled shrink seal. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) On 08/29/2016 10:15 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 09:51 AM 8/29/2016, you wrote: >> Hi Bob; >> Yes, I believe you have illustrated the handshake. Is it less >> colloquially called a knife splice? >> Cheers! Stu. > > > Interesting question. A google search > on 'knife splice' yielded 390,000 > hits; 'hand shake splice' yielded > only 151,000 hits. But in spite of > my own ignorance for the use of > 'hand shake' . . . it's obviously > in wide spread use. > > I can go to bed tonight knowing > something that I did not know this > morning . . . it's a good day! > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 29, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Connectors for Wing Roots
At 11:13 AM 8/29/2016, you wrote: > >Question regarding both the knife/handshake and wristlock >connectors. Do they achieve the high pressure connection that the >spade terminals achieve? Aside from electrically insulating them >from the environment should any additional steps be taken to "seal >them in"? I'm thinking of dielectric grease coating under shrink >seal, or even better, adhesive filled shrink seal. Ordinary heat-shrink keeps them engaged and free of incidental contamination. It's been done this way on TC aircraft forever . . . did it on B52s in 1960 except we had soft vinyl tubing with string ties on both ends . . . the era before heat-shrink. The purpose of this kind of joint is SERVICEABILITY, ease of opening single strands for maintenance. They've proven quite adequate to the task for decades. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Aug 29, 2016
Subject: Re: Wire Clamps
That's a very clever idea. Thank you, Kent. I'll keep that one in mind. Given the way that the interior of the BD-4C is built, I am more likely to rivet a little piece of scrap to a an aluminum angle that is part of the frame than to use epoxy. But you have given me food for thought. -- Art Z. On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Kent or Jackie Ashton wrote: > > On Aug 26, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > xcI thought that pretty much the only acceptable clamp for wires in an > airplane is Ye Ole MS21919 cushion clamp. Please educate me. > > > What you use on an Experimental only has to be safe, or "in a safe > condition for flight=9D, as your operating limits will make you cer tify. > MS21919 clamps are good but somewhat of a PIA to use. To secure wires to > an engine mount tube you need two of them-double trouble. (Tip: close th em > with a loop of safety wire, insert the screws, then clip-off the safety > wire). > > To show what can be done, here I cut small squares of rubber or silicone > baffle material, wrap it around the wires and secure the bundle with a > tie-wrap. Or I have made little fiberglass mounts out of scrap UNI, > epoxied them where I needed them, and secured wires with tie-wraps. It > won=99t win any awards but it is safe > -Kent > > -- http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Aug 29, 2016
Subject: Re: Wire Clamps
Rene', Do you know how F4 tape compares to Harbor Freight silicon tape <http://www.harborfreight.com/1-in-x-10-ft-self-bonding-super-tape-61414.ht ml> @ $3.99 for 10 feet? Or various other brands such as Super Glue, Nashua,and Loctite <http://www.homedepot.com/s/silicone%20tape?NCNI-5>, all available for well under $10? -- Art Z. On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Rene wrote: > When I want to connect something and I am worried about wear or fit, I us e > F-4 Tape. For example, a couple of wraps around the motor mount and you > can just zip tie away. The zip tie will embed in the rubber and never mo ve > again. Easily removed if need be since there is no adhesive. There are a > lot of uses for this stuff.. > > > If you have never used a fusion tape before..caution, you will q uickly > become addicted to its use. It is fun to play with also. > > > Not cheapbut a little goes a long way. > > > Another use for me is for strain relief for connectors. I wrap it around > the wires and then clamp the back shell around the bundle. Great for whe n > you have only couple of wires going into a DB-25 connector. > > > http://www.f4tape.com/?gclid=CIrJ6ffp384CFQUJaQodXN0PTA > -- http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com>
Subject: Wire Clamps
Date: Aug 29, 2016
Not really. I bought some black tape from ?????? and it works fine also. The F4 does seem to fuse better and I think it has more heat resistence. But have never compared. From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Art Zemon Sent: Monday, August 29, 2016 6:40 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wire Clamps Rene', Do you know how F4 tape compares to Harbor Freight silicon tape <http://www.harborfreight.com/1-in-x-10-ft-self-bonding-super-tape-61414. html> @ $3.99 for 10 feet? Or various other brands such as Super Glue, Nashua,and Loctite <http://www.homedepot.com/s/silicone%20tape?NCNI-5> , all available for well under $10? -- Art Z. On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Rene wrote: When I want to connect something and I am worried about wear or fit, I use F-4 Tape. For example, a couple of wraps around the motor mount and you can just zip tie away. The zip tie will embed in the rubber and never move again. Easily removed if need be since there is no adhesive. There are a lot of uses for this stuff.. If you have never used a fusion tape before..caution, you will quickly become addicted to its use. It is fun to play with also. Not cheapbut a little goes a long way. Another use for me is for strain relief for connectors. I wrap it around the wires and then clamp the back shell around the bundle. Great for when you have only couple of wires going into a DB-25 connector. http://www.f4tape.com/?gclid=CIrJ6ffp384CFQUJaQodXN0PTA -- <http://cheerfulcurmudgeon.com/> http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Under Sized Wire
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 30, 2016
In reference to my original question about 14 AWG wire melting at 60 amp, below are some links related to the subject. Calculate the dissipated watts: http://mustcalculate.com/electronics/wireproperties.php?mat=cu&l=1&area=2.08&areae=mm2&i=60&temp All About Circuits forum discussion: http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/how-to-calculate-heat-in-wires.108314/ WIRE AND CABLE MAXIMUM TEMPERATURE AND RISE IN AIR DESIGN NOTE November 1996, Updated September 2009 by Douglas P. Arduini - Consultant TABLE 3. MAXIMUM WIRE CURRENT FOR SINGLE COPPER WIRE IN FREE AIR https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7ZTG2VpCuDRR0VkRGpidG5DcTA 14 AWG at 43 amps = 125 degrees C temp rise 14 AWG at 47 amps =150 degrees C temp rise 14 AWG at 54 amps = 200 degrees C temp rise Conclusion: 14 AWG wire would not melt at 60 amps -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460028#460028 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 30, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Wire Clamps
At 07:44 PM 8/29/2016, you wrote: >That's a very clever idea. Thank you, Kent. I'll keep that one in >mind. Given the way that the interior of the BD-4C is built, I am >more likely to rivet a little piece of scrap to a an aluminum angle >that is part of the frame than to use epoxy. But you have given me >food for thought. Adhesives in structural or semi-structural applications are worthy of thought . . . and testing. Adhesive science is as much art as it is physics. You can delve into the subject on the 'net where you will discover discussions on levels of energy inherent in the surfaces of the various materials. The ability of an adhesive to grip any given surface is a function of surface textures and energy levels diluted with the effects of shock, moisture, contamination, temperature, etc. etc. I would not discourage anyone from trying any combination of glued joints using materials from their past experiences but if joint failure in your airplane generates an uncomfortable level of risk . . . well . . . think it through and TEST. At Beech, we had folks in the materials lab who were dedicated to the study and application of the various uckum-yuckies that were offered up as the next great glue. They could tell you some pretty amazing stories . . . and as long as the studies were confined to the lab, some were funny too. A few years ago I produce this article for the 'Connection . . . http://tinyurl.com/j2gxbqy . . . and later, refined it for Kit Planes http://tinyurl.com/hxczu3r The article speaks to the use of glued-on mountings for low-risk structural applications. Securing wire bundles and small electro-whizzies to the airplane are generally low risk situations. About the time I was selling the bond studs, I researched a number of adhesives for their suitability to task. No doubt there are many but the material E6000 and "ShoGoo" proved to be useful. The stuff needs 24 hour cure but it's tenacious, robust, inexpensive and available about everywhere. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Roger <rnjcurtis(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Under Sized Wire
Date: Aug 30, 2016
WIRE AND CABLE MAXIMUM TEMPERATURE AND RISE IN AIR DESIGN NOTE November 1996, Updated September 2009 by Douglas P. Arduini - Consultant TABLE 3. MAXIMUM WIRE CURRENT FOR SINGLE COPPER WIRE IN FREE AIR https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7ZTG2VpCuDRR0VkRGpidG5DcTA 14 AWG at 43 amps = 125 degrees C temp rise 14 AWG at 47 amps =150 degrees C temp rise 14 AWG at 54 amps = 200 degrees C temp rise Conclusion: 14 AWG wire would not melt at 60 amps At 60 amps the temperature would be about 480 deg F!! I would say that you would see some flowing of the wire insulation and a bit of smoke. Not what I would call an ideal airborne situation! Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mark and Kathleen Navratil <czechsix(at)msn.com>
Subject: Z13/8 with EarthX battery and dual electronic ignition
Date: Aug 30, 2016
Hi Bob, I'm building an RV-14A that will have a full glass IFR panel and dual elect ronic ignition (still undecided about which brand of ignition but for discu ssion purposes let's assume it's not P-mags). I'd also like to use the Ea rthX ETX680 battery for the significant weight savings. Would you be comfo rtable using Z13/8 for this mission? A few specific questions I have: 1) 1) Is the SD-8 with the parallel R/C circuit & PMR1C-14 regulator guaranteed to self-excite even if the alternator is brought online without a battery connected? One possible failure mode is the physical connection to the battery, but my real concern is the unknown failure modes of the Ear thX technology. It's more complex than a lead acid battery due to the BMS and newer chemistry and has a short track record thus far, so compared to a n Odyssey PC680 I feel there's a greater chance that the EarthX may simply shut itself off or fail in a manner that is equivalent to having the batter y completely disconnected. In this scenario I would assume the main altern ator will no longer function reliably so I need high confidence that the SD -8 will come online and produce 12-14 V, especially with both ignition syst ems depending on it. 2) 2) Operationally would you recommend having both alternators on al l the time for normal flying? Or would you normally have the SD-8 off and only switch it on if the main alternator fails? It seems one potential dow nside to having both alternators on all the time is if there's an overvolta ge condition it may trip the field breakers for both alternators. You woul dn't know which one failed and you'd have to reset one CB at a time to see which one works. Not a really big deal but it adds troubleshooting complex ity... 3) 3) Z13/8 shows both electronic ignition systems connected to the M ain Battery Bus. This seems ok for Pmags, but for ignition units without t heir own generating capability, I'm thinking it would make sense to move on e of them directly to the + battery terminal with a fusible link. 4) 4) Z13/8 shows the main battery lead, battery bus lead, and fuseli nk for the SD-8 all connected to the same terminal on the battery contactor . While I'm sure this is a pretty robust connection, it's still a potentia l single point failure that could result in loss of your battery and both a lternators (along with Main bus, E-bus, and Batt Bus) all at once. I'm thi nking about moving the SD-8 fuselink from the battery contactor over to the MAIN BATTERY BUS fuseblock stud. This would look the same to the electron s but eliminates the battery contactor stud as a single point failure for t he entire system. Thoughts? I know I could alleviate some of my concerns by going with an Odyssey PC680 and installing magnetos or Pmags, but the Odyssey battery is significantly heavier and the Pmags are still a concern for long-term reliability (I'm s keptical about how any electronic device can handle the heat exposure that is inherent in the Pmag design and have an MTBF of more than several hundre d hours). I could also add another smaller battery and have a full dual ba tt/dual alternator architecture, but this adds more weight, complexity, mai ntenance, expense, etc, so I prefer not to go that route unless necessary. Thanks, Mark Navratil Spring Hill, KS RV-8A N2D built/flew/sold RV-14A #140017 finishing wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Aug 30, 2016
Subject: Re: Wire Clamps
More good ideas. Thank you, Bob. Everybody: This is hugely helpful. I won't use all of these ideas but just seeing the photos is giving me ideas that I can build on. Some of the places that I want to secure wires would have been a PITA with cushion clamps. -- Art Z. On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 8:54 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 07:44 PM 8/29/2016, you wrote: > > That's a very clever idea. Thank you, Kent. I'll keep that one in mind. > Given the way that the interior of the BD-4C is built, I am more likely to > rivet a little piece of scrap to a an aluminum angle that is part of the > frame than to use epoxy. But you have given me food for thought. > > > Adhesives in structural or semi-structural > applications are worthy of thought . . . and > testing. > > Adhesive science is as much art as it is > physics. You can delve into the subject > on the 'net where you will discover discussions > on levels of energy inherent in the surfaces > of the various materials. The ability of an > adhesive to grip any given surface is a > function of surface textures and energy > levels diluted with the effects of shock, > moisture, contamination, temperature, etc. etc. > > I would not discourage anyone from trying > any combination of glued joints using > materials from their past experiences > but if joint failure in your airplane > generates an uncomfortable level of > risk . . . well . . . think it through > and TEST. > > At Beech, we had folks in the materials > lab who were dedicated to the study and > application of the various uckum-yuckies > that were offered up as the next great > glue. They could tell you some pretty > amazing stories . . . and as long as the > studies were confined to the lab, some were > funny too. > > A few years ago I produce this article > for the 'Connection . . . > > > http://tinyurl.com/j2gxbqy > > . . . and later, refined it for Kit Planes > > http://tinyurl.com/hxczu3r > > The article speaks to the use of glued-on > mountings for low-risk structural applications. > Securing wire bundles and small electro-whizzies > to the airplane are generally low risk > situations. > > About the time I was selling the bond studs, > I researched a number of adhesives for their > suitability to task. No doubt there are many > but the material E6000 and "ShoGoo" proved > to be useful. The stuff needs 24 hour cure > but it's tenacious, robust, inexpensive > and available about everywhere. > > > Bob . . . > -- http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z13/8 with EarthX battery and dual electronic ignition
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Aug 30, 2016
The Rotax 914 fuel injected engine has two alternators: the permanent magnet one and the larger electromagnet (wired field) one. The permanent magnet dynamo is completely separate from the aircraft electrical system and is dedicated to powering a fuel pump only. No matter how the aircraft electrical system fails, the fuel pump will keep working as long as the engine is running. The SD-8 could be wired similar to the Rotax dynamo. An AGM lead battery is unlikely to short out. Is it possible for the EarthX to short out and bring down the whole aircraft electrical system? -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460059#460059 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 31, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z13/8 with EarthX battery and dual electronic
ignition I'm building an RV-14A that will have a full glass IFR panel and dual electronic ignition (still undecided about which brand of ignition but for discussion purposes let's assume it's not P-mags). I'd also like to use the EarthX ETX680 battery for the significant weight savings. Would you be comfortable using Z13/8 for this mission? A few specific questions I have: 1) Is the SD-8 with the parallel R/C circuit & PMR1C-14 regulator guaranteed to self-excite even if the alternator is brought online without a battery connected? The circuit (Z25) has been tested on numerous airplanes . . . I'll be testing it further on my drive stand . . . but yes . . . the SD-8 will come up without a battery when wired as shown. One possible failure mode is the physical connection to the battery, but my real concern is the unknown failure modes of the EarthX technology. It's more complex than a lead acid battery due to the BMS and newer chemistry and has a short track record thus far, so compared to an Odyssey PC680 I feel there's a greater chance that the EarthX may simply shut itself off or fail in a manner that is equivalent to having the battery completely disconnected. During normal cruise operations, stress levels on internal electronics is a small fraction of that experience when cranking the engine. We don't have enough data about internal workings to do the classic MTBF study . . . but there's a lot of these devices in service . . . the risk is small. Even PC680s have gone "open". I have on my bench now that will go to Wichita on my next trip . . . need to machine the top cap off to inspect the inter-cell connections. In this scenario I would assume the main alternator will no longer function reliably . . . why do you assume this? Alternators have been demonstrated to run self-excited after start up . . . so I need high confidence that the SD-8 will come online and produce 12-14 V, especially with both ignition systems depending on it. Your choice . . . but the p-mag features offer an exceedingly robust failure modes effects analysis . . . but even LightSpeed system operating directly from a battery bus are on a par with the p-mags . . . Operationally would you recommend having both alternators on all the time for normal flying? Or would you normally have the SD-8 off and only switch it on if the main alternator fails? I think that's what is described in the 'Connection. It seems one potential downside to having both alternators on all the time is if there's an overvoltage condition it may trip the field breakers for both alternators. You would not know which one failed and you'd have to reset one CB at a time to see which one works. Not a really big deal but it adds troubleshooting complexity. Actually that's not so. The LR series regulators are selective ov trip. If the main alternator runs away, field voltage will be greater than 1 volt. If the field voltage is LESS than 1 volt, the LR3 ov trip is suppressed. Further, with the limited output from an SD8, you're not likely to EVERY see an OV event if the SD8 is the only alternator running unless system loads are very light . . . and the main alternator is inop. But it's a moot point . . . leave SD8 off until needed. Z13/8 shows both electronic ignition systems connected to the Main Battery Bus. This seems ok for Pmags, but for ignition units without their own generating capability, I'm thinking it would make sense to move one of them directly to the + battery terminal with a fusible link. Do as you wish . . . but the wiring as shown is exceedingly robust . . . your getting wrapped around the axles of exceedingly remote probabilities. Z13/8 shows the main battery lead, battery bus lead, and fuselink for the SD-8 all connected to the same terminal on the battery contactor. While I'm sure this is a pretty robust connection, it's still a potential single point failure that could result in loss of your battery and both alternators (along with Main bus, E-bus, and Batt Bus) all at once. . . . I think I'm more concerned about colliding with an inboud meteor than I am for contactor stud failure. I know I could alleviate some of my concerns by going with an Odyssey PC680 and installing magnetos or Pmags, but the Odyssey battery is significantly heavier and the Pmags are still a concern for long-term reliability (I'm skeptical about how any electronic device can handle the heat exposure that is inherent in the Pmag design and have an MTBF of more than several hundred hours). I could also add another smaller battery and have a full dual batt/dual alternator architecture, but this adds more weight, complexity, maintenance, expense, etc, so I prefer not to go that route unless necessary. The p-mags don't really operate that hot. Modern electronics are not that fragile. One of the first temperature tests accomplished by a friend of mine is to throw the thing into the chamber at 100C to see that there are no weak compoents or joints in the build. If it were my airplane, I'd go with Z13/8 as published with p-mags. If you go any other ignition system, run from battery bus on separate switches. Should you ever get down to SD-8 only operation, turn off one ignition system. Run pumps off the battery bus too. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z13/8 with EarthX battery and dual electronic
ignition
From: John Morgensen <john(at)morgensen.com>
Date: Aug 31, 2016
6 months ago I installed an EarthX ETX900 in my RV9A with Z13/8 and dual pmags. 385 hours TTAF and no failures to date. I chose the ETX900 over the ETX680 because it is rated for a bigger alternator. The form factor is the same. Anyone contemplating the EarthX battery should be aware that the battery will accept all of the amps that the alternator is capable of producing. If you start on battery only and forget to turn on the alternator until the low voltage light comes on, then my Plane Power 60 amp alternator puts out 64 amps. It does not stay at that output for more than a minute but it is disconcerti ng. John Morgensen RV9A On 8/30/2016 11:09 AM, Mark and Kathleen Navratil wrote: > > Hi Bob, > > I=92m building an RV-14A that will have a full glass IFR panel and dual > electronic ignition (still undecided about which brand of ignition but > for discussion purposes let=92s assume it=92s not P-mags). I=92d also like > to use the EarthX ETX680 battery for the significant weight savings. > Would you be comfortable using Z13/8 for this mission? > > > Mark Navratil > > Spring Hill, KS > > RV-8A N2D built/flew/sold > > RV-14A #140017 finishing wings > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 01, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z13/8 with EarthX battery and dual electronic
ignition At 02:09 PM 8/31/2016, you wrote: >6 months ago I installed an EarthX ETX900 in my RV9A with Z13/8 and >dual pmags. 385 hours TTAF and no failures to date. > > >I chose the ETX900 over the ETX680 because it is rated for a bigger >alternator. The form factor is the same. Anyone contemplating the >EarthX battery should be aware that the battery will accept all of >the amps that the alternator is capable of producing. If you start >on battery only and forget to turn on the alternator until the low >voltage light comes on, then my Plane Power 60 amp alternator puts >out 64 amps. It does not stay at that output for more than a minute >but it is disconcerting. "Cool" alternators are generally capable of more than nameplate rated output. As the alternator warms to it's rated max operating temperature, the output will fall to but hopefully not below rated value. This characteristic contributes to the "designed- to-trip-b-lead-breaker" phenomenon . . . it is normal. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 01, 2016
Subject: Ducati Regulator
For those interested in learning more about the Ducati regulator used in Rotax installations, the following post appeared on rotax-owner.com forum. Note that there is an embedded link that goes to some technical information. The 22A "Max" is a *continuous* current rating. Ducati uses a power MOSFET as a switching regulator for the DC output. See the BUZ60 datasheet <http://www.futurlec.com/Transistors/BUZ60.shtml> ... But if you peruse the graphs there, it appears that the device's 22A 'pulsed current' rating is dependent on pulse width (duty cycle), and more than anything the ability of the device to dissipate heat. The device itself can only (safely) supply its maximum rated output if its own case temperature is kept to 47C or below. Assuming the module package is 100% efficient at drawing the heat away from the MOSFET, you can extrapolate from the MOSFET performance curves that it shouldn't put out more than about 17.6 amperes at the "maximum" allowable module temperature of 80C. *So I think your estimate of 16A continuous is a very good 'conservative real-world number'.* We haven't tested it in our lab here, but I suspect if the rectifier-regulator module was actively cooled with a small computer fan mounted to the heatsink, you would get closer to the rated performance. And I'm not an electrical engineer but I have a feeling that the longevity of these regulator units (aside from heat dissipation factors!) is directly proportional to the quality of the 22,000uF Capacitor that smooths the ripple from them. For me, this prompts the question: How does one determine the quality of the 22,000uF capacitor? Ken ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Sep 01, 2016
Subject: Re: Ducati Regulator
> On Sep 1, 2016, at 11:27 AM, Ken Ryan wrote: > For me, this prompts the question: How does one determine the quality of t he 22,000uF capacitor? As I recall, our tutor here on the AE-List isn't convinced-by-data that this capacitor adds value to the airplane electrical system design equation, but he can chime in with those details. That said, if I were going to use one, this is how I would narrow it down: Pick from among the well-known top-tier manufacturers of aluminum electrolyt ic capacitors (Panasonic, Nichicon, Rubycon, United Chemicon, EPCOS, Cornell -Dubilier and W=C3=BCrth Elektronik). Anything sold by a reputable electron ic component supplier will be fine. Avoid suspiciously cheap parts on eBay, AliExpress or similar outlets. Some key specs to look for: - Rated voltage. For a 14V airplane, you'll want a capacitor rated 16V mini mum, and you'd be safer with 25V. Higher voltage ratings drive up cost. - High ripple current rating, hand-in-hand with low equivalent series resist ance (ESR). Generally, as ripple current goes up, ESR goes down. This spec expresses the capacitor's ability to absorb and release current as demand v aries. - Good temperature-over-time value. This spec starts at 85 deg C for ~1,000 hours and goes up from there. The higher the temp and longer the time, the greater service life you can expect. - For ease of mounting and connection, you'll probably want a capacitor with screw terminal connections, rather than PCB pins. A quick search of Digi-Key shows five options that meet all of these criteri a, ranging in price from $25 to over $300. The $25 EPCOS part would be my c hoice. It's rated for 40V, has very low ESR of 13mOhms and a ripple current rating of 15A, and connection is via screw terminals. It's rated for 20,00 0 hours at 105 deg C, so it will probably outlive us all behind your panel. See here: http://preview.tinyurl.com/jyf4nhs Eric ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 04, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Ducati Regulator
At 01:27 PM 9/1/2016, you wrote: >For those interested in learning more about the >Ducati regulator used in Rotax installations, >the following post appeared on ><http://rotax-owner.com>rotax-owner.com forum. >Note that there is an embedded link that goes to some technical information. > > >The 22A "Max" is a=C2 continuous=C2 current rating. > >Ducati uses a power MOSFET as a switching >regulator for the DC output. See the=C2 ><http://www.futurlec.com/Transistors/BUZ60.shtml>BUZ60 >datasheet=C2 ... But if you peruse the graphs >there, it appears that the device's 22A 'pulsed >current' rating is dependent on pulse width >(duty cycle), and more than anything the ability >of the device to dissipate heat. The device >itself can only (safely) supply its maximum >rated output if its own case temperature is kept >to 47C or below. Assuming the module package is >100% efficient at drawing the heat away from the >MOSFET, you can extrapolate from the MOSFET >performance curves that it shouldn't put out >more than about 17.6 amperes at the "maximum" >allowable module temperature of 80C.So I think >your estimate of 16A continuous is a very good 'conservative real-world number' I checked the article cited. Unfortunately, a few items of fact cited are poorly interpreted. The BUZ60 device is inappropriate to this task. It's a HIGH voltage, LOW current device with very HIGH on resistance. There are hundreds of devices more suited to this kind of service. The Ducatti regulator is demonstrably under-cooled. The samples seen in a disassembled condition appear to depend on POTTING COMPOUND to conduct heat energy from the switching devices to the outside world via what radiating fins do exist on the housing. This is a mystifying concept that was tried by this writer only once . . . a long time ago and never since. My friendly CNC driver has carved out some parts that fit into this proof of concept package http://tinyurl.com/zcxn6lr I'm exploring options for a PM r/r wherein the ability to control generations and rejection of heat are know quantities and tailored to design goals. Thermal resistance between the silicon junctions and outside world will be minimized . . there will be no potting compound. It is a mystery as to why the Rotax/Ducatti marriage has persisted for so long . . . but the answer is immaterial. It time to figure out how to do better. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Ducatti R/R deficiencies
I took some time to finish an article I started some years ago explaining my perceptions of thermal management deficiencies in the Ducatti R/R supplied with Rotax engines. http://tinyurl.com/zvkoh4p If anyone finds that I've stubbed my toe, give me a heads-up! I've got another one that speaks to the practical application of 'filter' capacitors on the output of rectifier-regulators for PM alternators . . . but that one will need to wait a bit longer. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ducatti R/R deficiencies
From: "pestar" <peter(at)reivernet.com>
Date: Sep 06, 2016
Bob I use a Schicke GR6 see http://www.schicke-electronic.de/dgr3.htm (unfortunately in German) for the reasons you speak off. I have a Rotax 914 and built my plane in France, there their comment was to only allow for a max of 14A out of the Rotax electrical system and then if only the wind was blowing in the right direction.. You can see what Schicke was endeavouring to achieve with their cooling, I do not know how robust their solution is under their potting mixture. Cheers Peter -------- Peter Armstrong Auckland, New Zealand DynAero MCR-4S (Do not shoot me :) ). Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460312#460312 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Ducatti R/R deficiencies
At 04:19 PM 9/6/2016, you wrote: > >Bob > >I use a Schicke GR6 see http://www.schicke-electronic.de/dgr3.htm >(unfortunately in German) for the reasons you speak off. I have a >Rotax 914 and built my plane in France, there their comment was to >only allow for a max of 14A out of the Rotax electrical system and >then if only the wind was blowing in the right direction.. > >You can see what Schicke was endeavouring to achieve with their >cooling, I do not know how robust their solution is under their >potting mixture. It's almost a certainty that this product maximizes benefits of that very robust heat sink by bolting the 'hot stuff' right to the metal. Schicke and Silent-Hektik are probably only two of many folks who have slain the R/R dragon. Thanks for the heads-up on this product! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Cox <rv10pro(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 06, 2016
Subject: Re: Ducatti R/R deficiencies
Thank you for the clarity and depth of description. With ROTAX planning to roll out the 915iS with the Garrett Turbocharger much like their 914, additional heat is exactly the issued needed to be addressed by Airframe designers. They are quoting over two dozen manufacturers planning on using the new product when released. My question to them, still using 20 year old technology with these Ducati parts? As always, your perspective makes this discussion more "On Point" and valued. John Cox On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:02 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> > > > I took some time to finish an article I started some > years ago explaining my perceptions of thermal management > deficiencies in the Ducatti R/R supplied with Rotax > engines. > > http://tinyurl.com/zvkoh4p > > If anyone finds that I've stubbed my toe, give > me a heads-up! > > I've got another one that speaks to the practical > application of 'filter' capacitors on the output > of rectifier-regulators for PM alternators . . . > but that one will need to wait a bit longer. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ducati R/R deficiencies
From: David Josephson <dlj04(at)josephson.com>
Date: Sep 07, 2016
On Sep 6, 2016, at 2:04 PM, Bob Nuckolls wrote: > > I took some time to finish an article I started some > years ago explaining my perceptions of thermal management > deficiencies in the Ducatti R/R supplied with Rotax > engines. > > http://tinyurl.com/zvkoh4p Indeed, and thanks. I have disassembled a couple of these and found the same problems. There seem to be two heat-related failure modes: (a) the semiconductors get too hot for the thermal resistance between junction and free air, and (b) the solder joints are poor between the leads of the devices and the pc board, and between the pc board and the connector, leading to localized heating. In two of the cases I have, the solder had melted often enough that the board was charred, and the component leads were not well cleaned so the solder had dirt and oxidation in it. They are no doubt caught up in European lead-free solder requirements too. To be fair these are inexpensive regulators designed for motorcycles where they are often installed in free air -- at the top of the firewall where they are usually found in airplanes is not a particularly cool place for them. Charging a motorcycle battery, plus a headlight, and ignition, is something they can handle well. Rotax can't design/build everything, it would be even more expensive than it is if they did (ever priced a wastegate controller for a 914?) and with proper cooling and low current drain the Ducati r/r is not too bad. Once it starts to fail due to heat however it's downhill from there. The Silent Hektik device seems to be a good replacement although I have not used one -- they will not ship to the US and seem not too interested in the light aviation market anymore. I have designed a more robust version using low Vf diodes and scrs and will probably have some test hours on one by the end of the year. The basic design is OK, I agree with Bob that it just needs better thermal management. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Attachment limits?
Matt, Recently I've received 'bounced' e-mails for postings to the AeroElectric List that cited an exceedance of limits on attachment size. Is this something new? To what size should attachments/ embedded images be limited? Thanks! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 07, 2016
Subject: Re: Attachment limits?
Matt, I have had the same problem, with my attachments being well under the published maximums. On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 5:26 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > Matt, > > Recently I've received 'bounced' e-mails for > postings to the AeroElectric List that cited > an exceedance of limits on attachment size. > > Is this something new? To what size should attachments/ > embedded images be limited? > > Thanks! > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Attachment limits?
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Sep 07, 2016
I'll add one more data point. On a few of these occasions I recall members c ommenting on this problem, but I had received their initial post via the ema il echo system, with the allegedly oversize attachments intact. So, it seem s that in some cases the server is accepting attachments but nonetheless sen ding bounce messages. Eric > On Sep 7, 2016, at 8:15 AM, Ken Ryan wrote: > Matt, I have had the same problem, with my attachments being well under th e published maximums. > > >> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 5:26 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aer oelectric.com> wrote: >> Matt, >> >> Recently I've received 'bounced' e-mails for postings to the AeroElectric List that cited an exceedance of limits on attachment size. >> >> Is this something new? To what size should attachments/embedded images be limited? >> >> Thanks! >> Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ducatti R/R deficiencies
From: "MMiller" <mmill(at)optonline.net>
Date: Sep 07, 2016
Bob, You have a few misconceptions about the Rotax regulator. All the power components are screwed to the case, heatsink compound is used. Rotax does not depend on the potting compound for heatsinking the power components. In your photo, item 1 and 2 are SCRs (MCR16N). Item 3 is a MOSFET to drive the fault lamp. The power diodes (button case) are not shown, they would attach between the plate on the left side and the two leads on the lower left side of the PCB. This version is obsolete since late 2009. I posted these links back in July, I guess you missed my post and conclusions. The older pre 2010 regulator Here a is a PDF schematic/assy for this version https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByPxADyU-DwPdTQ3NWp5LW9iOHc Typical failure mode PDF https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByPxADyU-DwPTnlXcUVEQTdfcVU Current production since 2010. Here is a PDF schematic/assy for this version https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByPxADyU-DwPWTBBcGlUeENTcHc Here are some failure PDF photos https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByPxADyU-DwPYm1rYUVsbUJyQ3M Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460344#460344 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Ducatti R/R deficiencies
At 06:36 PM 9/7/2016, you wrote: > >Bob, >You have a few misconceptions about the Rotax regulator. All the >power components are screwed to the case, heatsink compound is used. >Rotax does not depend on the potting compound for heatsinking the >power components. In your photo, item 1 and 2 are SCRs >(MCR16N). Item 3 is a MOSFET to drive the fault lamp. The power >diodes (button case) are not shown, they would attach between the >plate on the left side and the two leads on the lower left side of >the PCB. This version is obsolete since late 2009. Interesting! Yes I missed that. This EMT studies thing has been a profound distraction. Dave had alluded to solder problems with the design as well. I'm a bit amazed by your findings . . . solder? Gee . . . soldering is as generic to electronics manufacturing as water is to fish. Yet the problems you've identified suggest that some of Ducatti's fish are flopping around on the bank. It's unfortunate that Silent-Hektik is not more widely distributed. I had one in my shop to evaluate (but didn't have access to the drive stand). Nonetheless, it exudes an air of quality. I've got a customer project to get off the bench this week and then I'll finish up my drive stand for pad-driven alternators. The machine work for the proof of concept package I posted a few days ago is done, I'll pick up the parts in Wichita today or tomorrow. This really isn't rocket science. It's like baking a cake . . . there are benefits to be secured by following time-tested recipes for success. We'll get some real numbers off of a R/R fabricated from robust parts intimately acquainted with capable heat-sinking . . . assembled with Kester 63/37 solder! Thanks for sharing your discoveries . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Isolating the Rotax alternator
From: "spcialeffects" <spcialeffects(at)aol.com>
Date: Sep 08, 2016
Hi all. I am building a europa with a rotax 914 engine. I am having quite a few electrical goodies and for this reason i am having/need 2 alternators which will run together, the rotax alternator will run an essential bus bar and the auxiliary b&c 420 alternator will run a load shed bus bar. Also the batteries (2) I'm having are the Li-5 Red Top Lithium Phosphate. As part of the LAA here in the UK the modification to use these batteries requires a means of isolating both batteries AND both alternators. I'm using Mr Knuckles mother of all electrical systems as my main platform. In the cockpit I'm using 2 cessna duel rocker switches, 1 for each system and a carlin toggle switch for the cross over feed. Now the auxiliary alternator i can isolate using the field wire but the rotax alternator doesn't have one. I spoke to my rotax engineer and he said i could interrupt one of the ac yellow wires, before it goes to the regulator, which by the way is a Schicke GR6, and put a 40amp relay in which i can switch on and off. I would just like to confirm with those of you much more capable than me, if this is correct. This side of my build, electrics, is by far the most challenging discipline i have tried to understand. Many thanks Frank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460361#460361 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Isolating the Rotax alternator
At 02:26 PM 9/8/2016, you wrote: > > >Hi all. I am building a europa with a rotax 914 engine. I am having >quite a few electrical goodies and for this reason i am having/need >2 alternators which will run together, the rotax alternator will run >an essential bus bar and the auxiliary b&c 420 alternator will run a >load shed bus bar. Also the batteries (2) I'm having are the Li-5 >Red Top Lithium Phosphate. As part of the LAA here in the UK the >modification to use these batteries requires a means of isolating >both batteries AND both alternators. > I'm using Mr Knuckles mother of all electrical systems as my > main platform. In the cockpit I'm using 2 cessna duel rocker > switches, 1 for each system and a carlin toggle switch for the > cross over feed. Now the auxiliary alternator i can isolate using > the field wire but the rotax alternator doesn't have one. I spoke > to my rotax engineer and he said i could interrupt one of the ac > yellow wires, before it goes to the regulator, which by the way is > a Schicke GR6, and put a 40amp relay in which i can switch on and > off. I would just like to confirm with those of you much more > capable than me, if this is correct. That would be my recommendation > This side of my build, electrics, is by far the most > challenging discipline i have tried to understand. > > >Many thanks Frank You're most welcome. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Heads-up on eBay Ni-Mh offering
I've tested a LOT of batteries of all stripe purchased off the Internet. Sadly, more than half of those claiming extra-ordinary capacity will not deliver even a large fraction of claimed capacity. Tenergy products tested in my lab are the exception. Both the 10Ah (D size) and 3800mAh (subC-size) cells delivered very close to nameplate ratings. I gave them 4 stars only because the jury is still out on service life . . . but I am optimistic. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2016
From: Jim Baker <jimbaker(at)npacc.net>
Subject: Re: Heads-up on eBay Ni-Mh offering
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From: David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 08, 2016
Subject: Re: Alternator failure mode
Several weeks ago I posted about an alternator failure. Here are a few more details. I tested the field circuit as Bob recommended, and it all checked out. After un/plugging the alternator connector several times, I noticed that the terminal within the connector that supplies the low voltage light had failed. Part was still crimped to the airframe wire, and part was held fast in the connector. I replaced the connector, and since all the wiring checked out, and since the alternator had last been working, I tried the alternator again. This time it had a hard failure. Zero amps, and just battery voltage on the bus. There wasn't any odd behavior this time. It just didn't work. So I rechecked all the wiring, and it all checked out. I installed a new alternator and it works fine. I took the back cover off the failed alternator and found it as shown in the pictures. I think undamaged terminal is the ground. It seems to attach to the alternator case. The failed terminal connects to what I assume is the regulator. The only explanation I can offer is that I lightly washed the alternator in solvent while it was removed for other engine work. I might have contaminated the brush/commutator interface. I didn't soak it--just a light external cleaning. Any guesses as to how an impending failure like this could have given me the overvoltage without opening the field breaker? I hope this was a one-in-a-zillion and that Plane Power's overvoltage protection is useful. --Dave On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 6:47 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > Yes, the breaker is the only control. Otherwise the alternator comes on > with the battery. I had the breaker pulled before start because of of som e > extended battery-on tests.=C3=82 > > > Okay . . . it would be a good lick to open the > breaker, clip an ammeter across the breaker, > battery on, engine not running. CONFIRM that > what appears to be field excitation current > is running through the breaker. > > > Again, it didn't last long but it was very strange to see the OV and the > breaker popped--I had to tell myself to shut down instead of analyze, > before the magic smoke came out... > > > Good move . . . > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator failure mode
> >The only explanation I can offer is that I >lightly washed the alternator in solvent while >it was removed for other engine work.=C2 I might >have contaminated the brush/commutator >interface.=C2 I didn't soak it--just a light external cleaning. > >Any guesses as to how an impending failure like >this could have given me the overvoltage without >opening the field breaker?=C2 I hope this was a >one-in-a-zillion and that Plane Power's overvoltage protection is useful. I'm not privy to the intimate details of the Plain Power approach to modifying the stock alternator for external control of the field circuit. All I have to go on is based on a telephone conversation with PP right after the crow-bar mod came on the market. Do you still have the whole alternator and all it's pieces? I wouldn't mind doing a autopsy on it. I'd pay postage both ways. What I can see in the pictures doesn't give me a clear notion of what might have failed first but it would be interesting to see if that fact is discoverable. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 08, 2016
Subject: Alternator failure mode
Several weeks ago I posted about an alternator failure. Here are a few more details. I tested the field circuit as Bob recommended, and it all checked out. After un/plugging the alternator connector several times, I noticed that the terminal within the connector that supplies the low voltage light had failed. Part was still crimped to the airframe wire, and part was held fast in the connector. I replaced the connector, and since all the wiring checked out, and since the alternator had last been working, I tried the alternator again. This time it had a hard failure. Zero amps, and just battery voltage on the bus. There wasn't any odd behavior this time. It just didn't work. So I rechecked all the wiring, and it all checked out. I installed a new alternator and it works fine. I took the back cover off the failed alternator and found it as shown in the pictures. I think undamaged terminal is the ground. It seems to attach to the alternator case. The failed terminal connects to what I assume is the regulator. The only explanation I can offer is that I lightly washed the alternator in solvent while it was removed for other engine work. I might have contaminated the brush/commutator interface. I didn't soak it--just a light external cleaning. Any guesses as to how an impending failure like this could have given me the overvoltage without opening the field breaker? I hope this was a one-in-a-zillion and that Plane Power's overvoltage protection is useful. --Dave On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 6:47 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > Yes, the breaker is the only control. Otherwise the alternator comes on > with the battery. I had the breaker pulled before start because of of som e > extended battery-on tests.=C3=82 > > > Okay . . . it would be a good lick to open the > breaker, clip an ammeter across the breaker, > battery on, engine not running. CONFIRM that > what appears to be field excitation current > is running through the breaker. > > > Again, it didn't last long but it was very strange to see the OV and the > breaker popped--I had to tell myself to shut down instead of analyze, > before the magic smoke came out... > > > Good move . . . > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Thermocouple construction
From: "Paul Eckenroth" <jeckenroth(at)nbn.net>
Date: Sep 09, 2016
I need to create CHT thermocouples for use in a VW engine. The engine has small diameter holes drilled in the head with a set screw perpendicular to secure the thermocouple. The drilled hole is just large enough to allow a dsub male pin to be inserted. Since I already have old CHT probes as used on a Lycoming, my plan is to cut off the existing too large probe and insert the two stripped wires into the dsub, crimp, and insert into the hole and secure with the set screw. Since I am not an expert on thermocouples, I would like to know if this is a valid approach. Is the crimp enough to form the thermocouple. Should solder be used, etc. All information will be appreciated. Thanks. Paul Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460375#460375 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Thermocouple construction
From: Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net>
Date: Sep 09, 2016
Its only required that you twist the wires together and they make good contact with the engine but silver-solder will make them a little more robust. I made a little writeup here on how to make them for a Lycoming http://www.canardzone.com/forum/topic/31152-homemade-cht-bayonet-sensor/#entry58923 -Kent > On Sep 9, 2016, at 3:06 PM, Paul Eckenroth wrote: > > > I need to create CHT thermocouples for use in a VW engine. The engine has small diameter holes drilled in the head with a set screw perpendicular to secure the thermocouple. The drilled hole is just large enough to allow a dsub male pin to be inserted. Since I already have old CHT probes as used on a Lycoming, my plan is to cut off the existing too large probe and insert the two stripped wires into the dsub, crimp, and insert into the hole and secure with the set screw. Since I am not an expert on thermocouples, I would like to know if this is a valid approach. Is the crimp enough to form the thermocouple. Should solder be used, etc. All information will be appreciated. Thanks. > > Paul > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460375#460375 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 09, 2016
Subject: Re: Thermocouple construction
You do need to pay attention to whether your gauge/monitor expects grounded or ungrounded probes. (Some may allow you to select which you're using, but some don't.) Charlie On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Kent or Jackie Ashton wrote: > kjashton(at)vnet.net> > > It=99s only required that you twist the wires together and they mak e good > contact with the engine but silver-solder will make them a little more > robust. I made a little writeup here on how to make them for a Lycoming > http://www.canardzone.com/forum/topic/31152-homemade- > cht-bayonet-sensor/#entry58923 > > -Kent > > On Sep 9, 2016, at 3:06 PM, Paul Eckenroth wrote: > > > jeckenroth(at)nbn.net> > > > > I need to create CHT thermocouples for use in a VW engine. The engine > has small diameter holes drilled in the head with a set screw perpendicul ar > to secure the thermocouple. The drilled hole is just large enough to all ow > a dsub male pin to be inserted. Since I already have old CHT probes as > used on a Lycoming, my plan is to cut off the existing too large probe an d > insert the two stripped wires into the dsub, crimp, and insert into the > hole and secure with the set screw. Since I am not an expert on > thermocouples, I would like to know if this is a valid approach. Is the > crimp enough to form the thermocouple. Should solder be used, etc. All > information will be appreciated. Thanks. > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460375#460375 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 10, 2016
Subject: Re: Thermocouple construction
Thanks Kent, for a nifty how-to. I'll file that one away with my AEC manual . Rick Girard On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Kent or Jackie Ashton wrote: > kjashton(at)vnet.net> > > It=99s only required that you twist the wires together and they mak e good > contact with the engine but silver-solder will make them a little more > robust. I made a little writeup here on how to make them for a Lycoming > http://www.canardzone.com/forum/topic/31152-homemade- > cht-bayonet-sensor/#entry58923 > > -Kent > > On Sep 9, 2016, at 3:06 PM, Paul Eckenroth wrote: > > > jeckenroth(at)nbn.net> > > > > I need to create CHT thermocouples for use in a VW engine. The engine > has small diameter holes drilled in the head with a set screw perpendicul ar > to secure the thermocouple. The drilled hole is just large enough to all ow > a dsub male pin to be inserted. Since I already have old CHT probes as > used on a Lycoming, my plan is to cut off the existing too large probe an d > insert the two stripped wires into the dsub, crimp, and insert into the > hole and secure with the set screw. Since I am not an expert on > thermocouples, I would like to know if this is a valid approach. Is the > crimp enough to form the thermocouple. Should solder be used, etc. All > information will be appreciated. Thanks. > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460375#460375 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Paul Eckenroth <N509RV(at)eckenroth.com>
Date: Sep 10, 2016
Subject: Re: Thermocouple construction
Thanks for the comments. Sounds like all I need to do is twist the wires, insert in hole and pinch with set screw. The dsub will only make it a bit more sophisticated. Paul On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 7:20 PM, Richard Girard wrote : > Thanks Kent, for a nifty how-to. I'll file that one away with my AEC > manual. > > Rick Girard > > On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Kent or Jackie Ashton > wrote: > >> kjashton(at)vnet.net> >> >> It=99s only required that you twist the wires together and they ma ke good >> contact with the engine but silver-solder will make them a little more >> robust. I made a little writeup here on how to make them for a Lycoming >> http://www.canardzone.com/forum/topic/31152-homemade-cht- >> bayonet-sensor/#entry58923 >> >> -Kent >> > On Sep 9, 2016, at 3:06 PM, Paul Eckenroth wrote: >> > >> jeckenroth(at)nbn.net> >> > >> > I need to create CHT thermocouples for use in a VW engine. The engine >> has small diameter holes drilled in the head with a set screw perpendicu lar >> to secure the thermocouple. The drilled hole is just large enough to al low >> a dsub male pin to be inserted. Since I already have old CHT probes as >> used on a Lycoming, my plan is to cut off the existing too large probe a nd >> insert the two stripped wires into the dsub, crimp, and insert into the >> hole and secure with the set screw. Since I am not an expert on >> thermocouples, I would like to know if this is a valid approach. Is the >> crimp enough to form the thermocouple. Should solder be used, etc. All >> information will be appreciated. Thanks. >> > >> > Paul >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Read this topic online here: >> > >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460375#460375 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> ======================== =========== >> - >> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics .com/ >> Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ======================== =========== >> FORUMS - >> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ======================== =========== >> WIKI - >> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >> ======================== =========== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributi on >> ======================== =========== >> >> >> >> > > > -- > =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. =9D Groucho Marx > <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: battery misconceptions
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 15, 2016
Below is quote from another forum. Are the statements true or false? Or part true and part false? > . . . .batteries (in parallel) need to be the same; same type, same brand, same model, same age. . . . I think parallel batteries should have diodes between them on the charging leg to prevent one draining the other. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460501#460501 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: battery misconceptions
From: Lyle Peterson <lyleap(at)centurylink.net>
Date: Sep 15, 2016
A couple on interesting concepts are revealed there. Theoretically the batteries should be identical in all the factors mentioned. In reality, I doubt you will find that situation in the wild. There may be two that are close enough for government work but not identical The diodes mentioned would be to permit two slightly dissimilar batteries to be connected in parallel and function well. Why the need or desire for batteries in parallel? The output voltage is not increased. The capacity is increased but a better plan would be one battery of sufficient capacity for the task at hand. If higher voltage is needed, but by using two batteries in series, the same concept the writer mentions should be applied or use one higher voltage battery. Even then you have a series of batteries, or cells, in series each operating on its own. Regular cell checks would help to reduce differences in the cells thus the performance of the whole battery package. On 9/15/2016 6:46 PM, user9253 wrote: > > Below is quote from another forum. Are the statements true or false? Or part true and part false? > >> . . . .batteries (in parallel) need to be the same; same type, same brand, same model, same age. . . . I think parallel batteries should have diodes between them on the charging leg to prevent one draining the other. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460501#460501 > > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: battery misconceptions
At 06:46 PM 9/15/2016, you wrote: > >Below is quote from another forum. Are the statements true or >false? Or part true and part false? > > > . . . .batteries (in parallel) need to be the same; same type, > same brand, same model, same age. . . . I think parallel batteries > should have diodes between them on the charging leg to prevent one > draining the other. There is no foundation in physics for having paralleled batteries 'match' . . . When you charge a battery from a constant voltage bus, there is no way that one battery feels the effects of any other batteries irrespective of their numbers, size or condition. Further, when discharging paralleled batteries, each battery will deliver what ever energy it contains . . . again, there is no exchange of performance between batteries beyond each battery's ability to deliver energy. I have never understood the diodes for preventing one battery from 'discharging' another. Unless the discharged battery suffers badly trashed chemistry or shorted cells, the exchange of energy between a fully discharged battery and a fully charged battery is minuscule. I think it was about 2005 when Paul M. mounted a ambitious effort to illustrate design flaws in the crowbar ov protection system. I think it was that same series of threads where he cited "sparks" that occur when you jumper-cable connect a 'dead' battery with a charged battery . . . perhaps sustained at 14+ volts by the rescue vehicle. Yes, connect a battery with less that 5% capacity to a fully charged battery, you do indeed see some sparks. But plot a curve of the energy exchanged between the two and you'll find that it is insignificant. A battery delivers significant energy at 12.5 volts and down. But it takes a sustained application of 13.5 volts or more to push significant energy into a battery. That's why we call them 14-volt systems. Which explains the sparking observed when the dead battery is being connected to a running rescue vehicle. NOW . . . we're hooking our dead patient to a !4-Volt source . . . that's a different situation. But the idea that diodes are useful for mitigation of energy exchange between two good batteries in different states of charge is simply unsupported by the physics. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 16, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: battery misconceptions
At 08:18 PM 9/15/2016, you wrote: >AeroElectric-List message posted by: Lyle Peterson > >A couple on interesting concepts are revealed there. Theoretically >the batteries should be identical in all the factors mentioned. In >reality, I doubt you will find that situation in the wild. There >may be two that are close enough for government work but not identical > >Why the need or desire for batteries in parallel? The output >voltage is not increased. The capacity is increased but a better >plan would be one battery of sufficient capacity for the task at hand. Paralleled batteries have been proposed in numerous AEC architectures over the years . . . but paralleled only for the purpose of (1) improved cranking performance (Z-14) or (2) offering a means for separating two batteries into separate tasks during battery-only endurance operations. In these cased, the batteries were only CHARGED in parallel . . . a situation were differences in size and condition of the battery is transparent to functionality of all batteries. During battery-only ops, individual batteries are partitioned into separate tasks. Again, the capacity and condition of any one battery has no influence on performance of other battery(ies). >If higher voltage is needed, but by using two batteries in series, >the same concept the writer mentions should be applied or use one >higher voltage battery. Even then you have a series of batteries, >or cells, in series each operating on its own. This is what happens when a battery is crafted to meet system design goals. Earliest cars were 6v (3 lead-acid cells in battery). Later cars were 12v (6 cells), some vehicles are 24v (12 cells), many electric vehicles are 36v (18 cells). Now, wether that array of cells is crafted in one device of necessary cells or multiple devices with smaller numbers of cells in series is driven by design goals. >Regular cell checks would help to reduce differences in the cells >thus the performance of the whole battery package. Exactly. Cells connected series are no more capable than the weakest cell in the string. Back in the days when I shot a lot of film professionally, I used Vivitar 283 flashguns with 4xAA battery paks. I tried using NiCd . . . for a time . . . but they proved labor intensive to mitigate risk of a poor shoot. If only one cell of the 4 was weak, it would fall out of bed before the other three cells . . . but the whole array became useless. For a time, I would check the cells for capacity and build 'teams' of cells with similar capacity but it took too much time. Clients were paying all expenses of the job and a hand-full of batteries for radios, cameras, telemetry and data acquisition systems was perhaps 0.1% of the mission costs. I quit fiddling with NiCd and loaded fresh alkaline cells into all electro-whizzies at the start of the day. Cell matching becomes important for the case of building a large array battery from a series connected array of smaller batteries, . . . not just within any one battery but the whole string. This is the condition that prompts cap checks with benchmarks that call for replacement of the whole array at some established value . . . usually 80% of new. This benchmark is picked to meet battery only endurance goals while insuring that no single cell gets so far ahead in the down-hill run to failure that it puts all other cells at risk. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 16, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: PC680 Failure Analysis
A few weeks ago I received a PC680 battery from Joe Gores that was presenting intermittent behaviors. Seems the battery would 'go open' but perhaps with some external coaxing, prodding, banging, etc . . . it would come alive. Got a chance to get on the mill in Wichita last week and we carved the top off the failed battery for inspection. The battery's as-received condition is illustrated at http://tinyurl.com/zkp45md There was no evidence of external damage or internal distress. Terminal voltage as received was zero. I tried some external forces suggested by Joe to no avail. Tear-down images are posted at http://tinyurl.com/hspd7kt A 4-wire ohmmeter was used to check inter-cell connections http://tinyurl.com/z5wauwc. All execpt the leftmost interconnect presented sub-milliohm continuity. The leftmost joint was open circuit. Prying this joint open . . . http://tinyurl.com/hcmns8t . . . revealed a weld fracture wherein the entire face of the weld exhibits corrosion; there was no evidence of a metallic bridge across the joint prior to opening it up. It appears this failure was a long time in the making. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: PC680 Failure Analysis
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 16, 2016
Bob, I am happy that you found a problem and it was not my imagination. If that broken weld were repaired, I'm sure the battery would crank an engine just fine. The battery was new in 2010. (The sticker with 2016 on it is not the date.) I have not been reimbursed for the postage yet. The post office clerk said that using a flat-rate box saved half the cost of sending in a plain cardboard box. The lesson to be learned from this is that even though a battery failure is highly unlikely, it can happen. The first symptom (low voltage alarm at idle RPM) occurred while flying, even though the engine cranked just fine. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460530#460530 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 16, 2016
Subject: Re: PC680 Failure Analysis
I wonder if this battery would have passed the 80% draw down test? On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 8:19 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> > > A few weeks ago I received a PC680 battery from > Joe Gores that was presenting intermittent behaviors. > Seems the battery would 'go open' but perhaps with some > external coaxing, prodding, banging, etc . . . it would > come alive. > > Got a chance to get on the mill in Wichita last week > and we carved the top off the failed battery for > inspection. > > The battery's as-received condition is illustrated > at http://tinyurl.com/zkp45md > > There was no evidence of external damage or internal > distress. Terminal voltage as received was zero. I tried > some external forces suggested by Joe to no avail. > > Tear-down images are posted at http://tinyurl.com/hspd7kt > > A 4-wire ohmmeter was used to check inter-cell > connections http://tinyurl.com/z5wauwc. All execpt the > leftmost interconnect presented sub-milliohm continuity. > The leftmost joint was open circuit. > > Prying this joint open . . . > > http://tinyurl.com/hcmns8t > > . . . revealed a weld fracture wherein the entire > face of the weld exhibits corrosion; there was > no evidence of a metallic bridge across the joint > prior to opening it up. > > It appears this failure was a long time in the > making. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 16, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: PC680 Failure Analysis
At 01:35 PM 9/16/2016, you wrote: >I wonder if this battery would have passed the 80% draw down test? Interesting thought. I suppose I could have tested it right after opening it up . . . but its been open to atmosphere for quite awhile. I put a charger on a couple of cells but they've dried out. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hariharan Gopalan <rdu.hari(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 16, 2016
Subject: Re: VOR/LOC/GS BALUN Fabrication
Meant to include the link: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/BALUN/Balun_Fabrication.html On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Hariharan Gopalan wrote: > Hello Group > > I was trying to fabricate this cable, but having trouble in step 2. The > exposed braid refuses to suck up the molten solder. The moment I put a > soldering iron ( a standard radio shack 35W iron) the solder freezes up and > won't melt and flow. Have enough flux applied to the braid, not sure what I > can do to get this tinned. > > any pointers would be highly appreciated > > Thanks > Hari > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hariharan Gopalan <rdu.hari(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 16, 2016
Subject: VOR/LOC/GS BALUN Fabrication
Hello Group I was trying to fabricate this cable, but having trouble in step 2. The exposed braid refuses to suck up the molten solder. The moment I put a soldering iron ( a standard radio shack 35W iron) the solder freezes up and won't melt and flow. Have enough flux applied to the braid, not sure what I can do to get this tinned. any pointers would be highly appreciated Thanks Hari ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: VOR/LOC/GS BALUN Fabrication
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 16, 2016
What kind of solder are you using? Some types melt at a higher temperature. The wire might not be getting hot enough or made of a metal that does not readily accept solder. What kind of flux are you using? Solder made for electrical connections usually has a flux core and extra flux is not needed. Flux made for plumbing is acid based and will cause electrical connections to corrode and fail eventually. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460541#460541 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: VOR/LOC/GS BALUN Fabrication
From: Harley Dixon <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Date: Sep 17, 2016
Be sure that the BRAID has been heated to above the solder melt temperature as well as the solder. And that the temperature is maintained in both as the solder flows. You should be sure that you are using electrical solder, and not solid core. You won't need any external flux if you do as the solder has the proper flux internally. Harley ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On 9/16/2016 8:35 PM, Hariharan Gopalan wrote: > Hello Group > > I was trying to fabricate this cable, but having trouble in step 2. > The exposed braid refuses to suck up the molten solder. The moment I > put a soldering iron ( a standard radio shack 35W iron) the solder > freezes up and won't melt and flow. Have enough flux applied to the > braid, not sure what I can do to get this tinned. > > any pointers would be highly appreciated > > Thanks > Hari -- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 17, 2016
Subject: Re: VOR/LOC/GS BALUN Fabrication
Can you attach a pic of your actual setup (coax, iron, solder, etc)? Misc thoughts: Iron tip must be clean & tinned with solder, for efficient heat transfer to the work. Also, some 35W irons have very low mass tips, and can't keep up with the heat transfer into a large 'sink' like braid. 60/40 or 63/37 rosin core electronics solder; Electronics grade flux; and last, this is a long shot, but make sure your coax is copper braid shield and not a foil shield. There are some coaxes that have an aluminum foil shield instead of braided copper. On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 7:35 PM, Hariharan Gopalan wrote: > Meant to include the link: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/BALUN/Balun_Fabrication.html > > On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Hariharan Gopalan > wrote: > >> Hello Group >> >> I was trying to fabricate this cable, but having trouble in step 2. The >> exposed braid refuses to suck up the molten solder. The moment I put a >> soldering iron ( a standard radio shack 35W iron) the solder freezes up and >> won't melt and flow. Have enough flux applied to the braid, not sure what I >> can do to get this tinned. >> >> any pointers would be highly appreciated >> >> Thanks >> Hari >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hariharan Gopalan <rdu.hari(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 17, 2016
Subject: Re: VOR/LOC/GS BALUN Fabrication
I was putting in the cable for a new build and after reading the description again, postponed this till I actually test the performance.Thanks to all for the pointers. On Sat, Sep 17, 2016 at 9:43 AM, Charlie England wrote: > Can you attach a pic of your actual setup (coax, iron, solder, etc)? > > Misc thoughts: Iron tip must be clean & tinned with solder, for efficient > heat transfer to the work. Also, some 35W irons have very low mass tips, > and can't keep up with the heat transfer into a large 'sink' like braid. > 60/40 or 63/37 rosin core electronics solder; Electronics grade flux; and > last, this is a long shot, but make sure your coax is copper braid shield > and not a foil shield. There are some coaxes that have an aluminum foil > shield instead of braided copper. > > On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 7:35 PM, Hariharan Gopalan > wrote: > >> Meant to include the link: >> >> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/BALUN/Balun_Fabrication.html >> >> On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Hariharan Gopalan >> wrote: >> >>> Hello Group >>> >>> I was trying to fabricate this cable, but having trouble in step 2. The >>> exposed braid refuses to suck up the molten solder. The moment I put a >>> soldering iron ( a standard radio shack 35W iron) the solder freezes up and >>> won't melt and flow. Have enough flux applied to the braid, not sure what I >>> can do to get this tinned. >>> >>> any pointers would be highly appreciated >>> >>> Thanks >>> Hari >>> >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hariharan Gopalan <rdu.hari(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 17, 2016
Subject: Flasher recommendation for beacon light
I bought the following super bright LED tower to use as a beacon and looking for a flasher. Any recommendations please? https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/tail-brake-turn/1157-led-bulb-dual-function-28-smd-led-tower-bay15d-retrofit-car/1644/ Thanks Hari ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hariharan Gopalan <rdu.hari(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 17, 2016
Subject: Re: Low Voltage Annunciator
Hello Bob I had responded to this but haven't heard from you. Any news on this please? Thanks Hari On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:55 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 11:57 AM 12/18/2015, you wrote: > > > > > I have an LED in my panel that I want to illuminate on Low Volts. I found > Bob's AEC9005 module on his website and would like to buy/build one. Does > anyone know if they are available and if not, how about the board. I > believe I can probably find most of the parts but they won't do me any good > without the printed board. Anyone know of any alternatives? Thanks. > > > Are you flying yet? If not, what is the anticipated > first light under the wheels? > > I'm wrapping up about a half dozen AEC products for > addition to the B&C catalog . . . one of which is > a 4-function module that will manage an aux battery, > annunciate low voltage, manage an ov event on a pm > alternator or manage a battery contactor to minimize > power consumption. > > http://tinyurl.com/peyfl8s > > If you would like to be the beta-test aircraft for > this product, I'll offer you one free of charge > in exchange for your user-evaluation of the installation > instructions and product performance in the selected > application. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
Subject: Re: Low Voltage Annunciator
Date: Sep 17, 2016
I'd also be interested to hear about the new module. I have not yet mailed m y 9005 that has been acting up. > On Sep 17, 2016, at 22:01, Hariharan Gopalan wrote: > > Hello Bob > > I had responded to this but haven't heard from you. Any news on this pleas e? > > Thanks > Hari > >> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:55 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@ae roelectric.com> wrote: >> At 11:57 AM 12/18/2015, you wrote: et> >>> >>> I have an LED in my panel that I want to illuminate on Low Volts. I fou nd Bob's AEC9005 module on his website and would like to buy/build one. Doe s anyone know if they are available and if not, how about the board. I beli eve I can probably find most of the parts but they won't do me any good with out the printed board. Anyone know of any alternatives? Thanks. >> >> >> Are you flying yet? If not, what is the anticipated >> first light under the wheels? >> >> I'm wrapping up about a half dozen AEC products for >> addition to the B&C catalog . . . one of which is >> a 4-function module that will manage an aux battery, >> annunciate low voltage, manage an ov event on a pm >> alternator or manage a battery contactor to minimize >> power consumption. >> >> http://tinyurl.com/peyfl8s >> >> If you would like to be the beta-test aircraft for >> this product, I'll offer you one free of charge >> in exchange for your user-evaluation of the installation >> instructions and product performance in the selected >> application. >> >> Bob . . . >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Low Voltage Annunciator
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 17, 2016
Adjustable low voltage alarm on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Low-Voltage-Dead-Stored-Battery-Failure-12-Volt-Discharge-Detector-Alarm-/121534414059?hash=item1c4c03fceb:g:dFEAAOSwEetWAY3x&item=121534414059&vxp=mtr -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460550#460550 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 18, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Low Voltage Annunciator
At 09:23 PM 9/17/2016, you wrote: >I'd also be interested to hear about the new module. I have not yet >mailed my 9005 that has been acting up. > >On Sep 17, 2016, at 22:01, Hariharan Gopalan ><rdu.hari(at)gmail.com> wrote: > >>Hello Bob >> >>I had responded to this but haven't heard from you. Any news on this please? >> >>Thanks >>Hari Knee deep in higher priorities. But pleased do send me your mis-behaving module. I'll turn it around same day. Let me know when it mails. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Low Voltage Annunciator
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Sep 18, 2016
Perihelion Design has been supplying "13V Idiot Light" for many years. We have sold many hundreds to NASCAR, Rotoway builders, and homebuilders. The current version trips at 13V but has an accessory lead to allow the connection of an audio annunciator or an annunciator panel LED. Red blinking is standard, but other types are possible. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460573#460573 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/lv_annunciator_manuala__copy_110.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 18, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Low Voltage Annunciator
At 09:23 PM 9/17/2016, you wrote: >I'd also be interested to hear about the new module. I have not yet >mailed my 9005 that has been acting up. > >On Sep 17, 2016, at 22:01, Hariharan Gopalan ><rdu.hari(at)gmail.com> wrote: > >>Hello Bob >> >>I had responded to this but haven't heard from you. Any news on this please? >> >>Thanks >>Hari Knee deep in higher priorities. But pleased do send me your mis-behaving module. I'll turn it around same day. Let me know when it mails. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
Date: Sep 19, 2016
Subject: Re: Low Voltage Annunciator
Thanks Bob, it's coming at you via First Class mail with return postage in the envelope. On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 09:23 PM 9/17/2016, you wrote: > > I'd also be interested to hear about the new module. I have not yet mailed > my 9005 that has been acting up. > > On Sep 17, 2016, at 22:01, Hariharan Gopalan wrote: > > Hello Bob > > I had responded to this but haven't heard from you. Any news on this > please? > > Thanks > Hari > > > Knee deep in higher priorities. But pleased > do send me your mis-behaving module. I'll turn > it around same day. Let me know when it mails. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Low Voltage Annunciator
At 10:46 AM 9/19/2016, you wrote: >Thanks Bob, it's coming at you via First Class mail with return >postage in the envelope. I'll be watching for it. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: New smartphone app for pilots
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 19, 2016
Its been so hot down here in Georgia, I can't stay long in the hanger, so I have been coding in the air-conditioned office. The altimeter app "avAltimeter" is up to version 1.0.7 and now allows for setting the field elevation via GPS or manually or using the Kollsman window with either metric or imperial units. I've collected pictures of the app being used in a variety of interesting aircraft cockpits at: http://www.aviametrix.com/avaltimeter-in-action/ I've also written another app which may be of interest to some here on the Aeroelectric list. It is a very simple, one trick pony app, but it does what I thought was useful (for me at least). When you run the app, it gets your geographic location by GPS or other means, and fetches the closest METAR reports. No map scrolling or typing needed. You can fetch 25, 50 100 miles radius of station reports and sort them by distance to you, by heading, or by age. If you want to be a weanie, you can tap any particular station and the app will translate the METAR into english. The app is called AvWx and it is in the App store. You can take a peek at: http://www.aviametrix.com/metar/avwx.html -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460597#460597 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: New smartphone app for pilots
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 21, 2016
Please be advised that the new iOS 10.0.1 on iPads only breaks all barometer type apps. Apple is aware of the issue and working on it. This problem does not occur on iPhones. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460633#460633 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 21, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: New smartphone app for pilots
>The altimeter app "avAltimeter" is up to version 1.0.7 and now >allows for setting the field elevation via GPS or manually or using >the Kollsman window with either metric or imperial units. I've >collected pictures of the app being used in a variety of interesting >aircraft cockpits at: http://www.aviametrix.com/avaltimeter-in-action/ >The app is called AvWx and it is in the App store. You can take a peek at: >http://www.aviametrix.com/metar/avwx.html These look like really creative and useful pieces of work. If I had a capable piece of hardware, I'd certainly get a first hand look . . . I encourage any/all Listers to avail themselves of this offering and to give good critical review of your findings and experiences. As a producer of products to a consumer-at-large market, I can attest to the difficulties of securing learned feedback. Let's do what we can to evolve/validate Ira's efforts in his quest to do the best that can be done. I think I need to do some phone shopping . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: New smartphone app for pilots
From: Bill Maxwell <wrmaxwell(at)bigpond.com>
Date: Sep 22, 2016
Unfortunately, at least from my perspective, these apps are unusuable, being Apple specific. Having an Android version also available would open up a far wider potential user group. Bill On 22/09/2016 9:40 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > >> The altimeter app "avAltimeter" is up to version 1.0.7 and now allows >> for setting the field elevation via GPS or manually or using the >> Kollsman window with either metric or imperial units. I've collected >> pictures of the app being used in a variety of interesting aircraft >> cockpits at: http://www.aviametrix.com/avaltimeter-in-action/ >> <http://www.aviametrix.com/avaltimeter-in-action/> > > > >> The app is called AvWx and it is in the App store. You can take a >> peek at: >> http://www.aviametrix.com/metar/avwx.html >> <http://www.aviametrix.com/metar/avwx.html> > > These look like really creative and useful pieces > of work. If I had a capable piece of hardware, I'd > certainly get a first hand look . . . > > I encourage any/all Listers to avail themselves > of this offering and to give good critical review > of your findings and experiences. As a producer > of products to a consumer-at-large market, > I can attest to the difficulties of securing > learned feedback. > > Let's do what we can to evolve/validate Ira's > efforts in his quest to do the best that can > be done. > > I think I need to do some phone shopping . . . > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Sep 21, 2016
Subject: Problems Soldering DB-25 Connectors
Folks, I am trying to solder 20 gauge wire into DB-25 connectors and having a tough time. The conductors just barely fit into the cups on the backs of the pins when everything is "dry," before tinning. After I tin either one, pin or wire, I cannot get all of the conductors into the cup. I end up with something like this: I'm afraid that those are not acceptable. What do you think? If they are not acceptable, what is the solution? Can I trim a few conductors away so that the remainder will slip into the cup? Or should I just give up and switch to crimp pins? Or what? Thanks, -- Art Z. -- http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com>
Subject: Problems Soldering DB-25 Connectors
Date: Sep 21, 2016
I prefer the crimp pins. Easier to create the connector and easier to take it apart or change wires. I have done way more of that then I would have ever imagined when I build the plane. Rene' 801-721-6080 From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Art Zemon Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2016 6:34 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Problems Soldering DB-25 Connectors Folks, I am trying to solder 20 gauge wire into DB-25 connectors and having a tough time. The conductors just barely fit into the cups on the backs of the pins when everything is "dry," before tinning. After I tin either one, pin or wire, I cannot get all of the conductors into the cup. I end up with something like this: I'm afraid that those are not acceptable. What do you think? If they are not acceptable, what is the solution? Can I trim a few conductors away so that the remainder will slip into the cup? Or should I just give up and switch to crimp pins? Or what? Thanks, -- Art Z. -- <http://cheerfulcurmudgeon.com/> http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com>
Subject: Re: Problems Soldering DB-25 Connectors
Date: Sep 21, 2016
To me they would be acceptable but there should be some more solder on each p in, so that the solder surface tapers smoothly. > On Sep 21, 2016, at 8:47 PM, Rene wrote: > > I prefer the crimp pins. Easier to create the connector and easier to tak e it apart or change wires. I have done way more of that then I would have e ver imagined when I build the plane. > > Rene' > 801-721-6080


August 10, 2016 - September 21, 2016

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