AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-np

October 12, 2016 - December 11, 2016



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________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 12, 2016
From: Daniel Jones <warbirds(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Can One Oil Temp Resistance Bulb Run Two Instruments?
Thanks Bob, I expect you're right. I may set up a simple bench-top experiment just to see how much each gauge under reads with the bulb in a pot of boiling water. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 7:22:17 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Can One Oil Temp Resistance Bulb Run Two Instruments? At 10:03 PM 10/11/2016, you wrote: If wired in parallel, can one oil temperature resistance bulb supply oil temperature information to two separate instruments? I can't fathom why it wouldn't if all it basically is is a resistor... The specifics are a Rochester bulb (MS28034-1) installed in the oil tank and wired in parallel to two separate 14v instruments in two open cockpits. Thanks, Dan Probably not. One thermocouple can be read by multiple instruments . . . but the calibration of legacy technologies used by Rochester and others depends on COMBINED resistance of the sensor and components built into the gage. Paralleling two gages would upset the calibration. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Can One Oil Temp Resistance Bulb Run Two Instruments?
From: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com>
Date: Oct 12, 2016
On 10/12/2016 11:15 AM, Daniel Jones wrote: > I may set up a simple bench-top experiment just to see how much each > gauge under reads with the bulb in a pot of boiling water. If you power one of the gages from an isolated power supply, the thermistor won't "know" the other gage is even there, except for heating issues which shouldn't be an issue. In olden days, that would be a small battery, intermittently charged. Today, you can buy a charge pump on a chip that provides you voltage isolated from the supply... Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 12, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Can One Oil Temp Resistance Bulb Run Two Instruments?
At 01:15 PM 10/12/2016, you wrote: >Thanks Bob, I expect you're right. I may set up a simple bench-top >experiment just to see how much each gauge under reads with the bulb >in a pot of boiling water. Be still my beating heart . . . you're a good man Charlie Brown! Experimentation, measurement and verification is one of foundations for progress. I seem to recall a similar thread although many moons ago and I'm not sure it was here on the List . . . it may have been on the Compuserve AVSIG . . . that goes back a few years. I think what we decided was that the master gage was essentially a voltmeter . . . that produces a needle position in concert with a temperature/resistance characteristic of the matching transducer. I think one of the guys built a gain-of-one buffer amplifier on a piece of perf board. Input to the amplifier was a 'sample' of the voltage at the master-gage sensor terminal. This voltage voltage was simply repeated and and passed on to the slave-gage without disrupting of the master gage. This was used successfully on a variety of Rochester-like, moving magnet gages for a host of measurements. No calibration required, just gages proven to be identical. While conducting your bench tests, it would be useful to know the sensor signal's current as well as voltage drop across the sensor at the 100C test point. You'll need to get a milliammeter in series with the sensor. I can help with parts selection and a schematic once that data is known. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 14, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Can One Oil Temp Resistance Bulb Run Two Instruments?
At 01:15 PM 10/12/2016, you wrote: >Thanks Bob, I expect you're right. I may set up a simple bench-top >experiment just to see how much each gauge under reads with the bulb >in a pot of boiling water. Here's an article by an individual wrestling with understanding/calibration issues on VDO automotive gages. http://tinyurl.com/h4qo22g It would be interesting to 'characterize' the gages you have in hand by measuring the current through the gage over the instrument's calibration span. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris" <fconsult(at)telus.net>
Subject: Coiled ignition systems
Date: Oct 21, 2016
Hi All I have finished wiring a very simple single place biplane with a VW engine. The engine has single ignition, automotive style with coil and breaker points. I used a master switch to turn off all power at the contactor which is next to the battery behind the seat. There is also a key ignition switch that is used to start the engine it powers the starter and coil. So in order to start the plane the master has to be on and then the ignition switch provides power for the starter and ignition. I know this is a two point failure set up, but the alternative is to have the pilot remember to turn off both master and ignition switch in case of emergency, something that probably wouldn't happen in a stressful situation. Is there a better way to handle coiled ignition systems? Thanks Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Coiled ignition systems
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 22, 2016
If a forced landing is immanent, all electrical power should be shut off to prevent ignition of leaking fuel. A master switch that shuts off everything including the engine is good for that scenario. However, smoke in the cockpit is an emergency that may require shutting off all electrical loads except the engine. In that case, engine ignition needs to be independent of the master switch. The most reliable ignition circuit is less complicated and has fewer components. If it were my plane, I would power the ignition system from the battery, independent of the master switch. The engine starter circuit should be disabled when the master switch is off. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461520#461520 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 22, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Coiled ignition systems
At 08:53 AM 10/22/2016, you wrote: > >If a forced landing is immanent, all electrical power should be shut >off to prevent ignition of leaking fuel. A master switch that shuts >off everything including the engine is good for that >scenario. However, smoke in the cockpit is an emergency that may >require shutting off all electrical loads except the engine. In >that case, engine ignition needs to be independent of the master >switch. The most reliable ignition circuit is less complicated and >has fewer components. If it were my plane, I would power the >ignition system from the battery, independent of the master >switch. The engine starter circuit should be disabled when the >master switch is off. Agreed . . . Since your ignition system will run nicely on 7A or less, I too would recommend you run the ignition directly from the battery through a 7A fuse. Power the starter from the bus powered through the master contactor. The ignition circuit is low risk for post-crash ignition source . . . so even if you don't get the engine killed before anticipated contact the primary risk is to the engine having a powered prop strike. Taking everything else through the battery master is the conventional philosophy. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Coiled ignition systems
From: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 22, 2016
A 7 amp CB seems reasonable but a 7 amp fuse makes me a bit nervous. I seem to recall that when I looked at ignition currents I noted that they went up at high rpm, at high temperatures, and in some rare cases when the engine was not turning. I did not notice any automotive systems that lightly fused the ignition circuits. So while I've never measured over 5 amps on my soob units, my personal recommendation is a minimum 10 amp fuse on ignition circuits that feed multiple cylinders even if they are solid state. It may be that the peak currents as seen on a scope caught my attention or that I just like more headroom on critical fuses. I think part of my thought process might have been that on my system if one solid state coil driver shorted full on it would not necessarily take out the system fuse. I don't have any idea what the tolerance is on an ATC fuse. I have 700 hours on the original 10 amp fuses that feed the 4 cylinder soob. I've had two cases of one cylinder losing power due to a partial coil failure. Once during initial ground testing and once at around 500 hours. These are DIS coils that each feed two cylinders but in both cases only one cylinder lost power. Ken On 22/10/2016 2:02 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 08:53 AM 10/22/2016, you wrote: >> >> If a forced landing is immanent, all electrical power should be shut >> off to prevent ignition of leaking fuel. A master switch that shuts >> off everything including the engine is good for that scenario. >> However, smoke in the cockpit is an emergency that may require >> shutting off all electrical loads except the engine. In that case, >> engine ignition needs to be independent of the master switch. The >> most reliable ignition circuit is less complicated and has fewer >> components. If it were my plane, I would power the ignition system >> from the battery, independent of the master switch. The engine >> starter circuit should be disabled when the master switch is off. > > Agreed . . . > > Since your ignition system will run nicely > on 7A or less, I too would recommend you > run the ignition directly from the battery > through a 7A fuse. Power the starter from > the bus powered through the master contactor. > > The ignition circuit is low risk for post-crash > ignition source . . . so even if you don't > get the engine killed before anticipated > contact the primary risk is to the engine > having a powered prop strike. > > Taking everything else through the battery > master is the conventional philosophy. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Coiled ignition systems
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 22, 2016
Ken brings up an easy redundancy opportunity. Some (most?) automotive style engine controllers switch the ground side of the coils and the injectors. To limit the impact of such failures, I chose to independently fuse each coil. Might be worth a look if running an auto style engine controller. Charlie On 10/22/2016 2:37 PM, C&K wrote: > > A 7 amp CB seems reasonable but a 7 amp fuse makes me a bit nervous. I > seem to recall that when I looked at ignition currents I noted that > they went up at high rpm, at high temperatures, and in some rare cases > when the engine was not turning. I did not notice any automotive > systems that lightly fused the ignition circuits. So while I've never > measured over 5 amps on my soob units, my personal recommendation is a > minimum 10 amp fuse on ignition circuits that feed multiple cylinders > even if they are solid state. It may be that the peak currents as > seen on a scope caught my attention or that I just like more headroom > on critical fuses. I think part of my thought process might have been > that on my system if one solid state coil driver shorted full on it > would not necessarily take out the system fuse. I don't have any idea > what the tolerance is on an ATC fuse. I have 700 hours on the original > 10 amp fuses that feed the 4 cylinder soob. I've had two cases of one > cylinder losing power due to a partial coil failure. Once during > initial ground testing and once at around 500 hours. These are DIS > coils that each feed two cylinders but in both cases only one cylinder > lost power. > Ken > > On 22/10/2016 2:02 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> At 08:53 AM 10/22/2016, you wrote: >>> >>> If a forced landing is immanent, all electrical power should be shut >>> off to prevent ignition of leaking fuel. A master switch that shuts >>> off everything including the engine is good for that scenario. >>> However, smoke in the cockpit is an emergency that may require >>> shutting off all electrical loads except the engine. In that case, >>> engine ignition needs to be independent of the master switch. The >>> most reliable ignition circuit is less complicated and has fewer >>> components. If it were my plane, I would power the ignition system >>> from the battery, independent of the master switch. The engine >>> starter circuit should be disabled when the master switch is off. >> >> Agreed . . . >> >> Since your ignition system will run nicely >> on 7A or less, I too would recommend you >> run the ignition directly from the battery >> through a 7A fuse. Power the starter from >> the bus powered through the master contactor. >> >> The ignition circuit is low risk for post-crash >> ignition source . . . so even if you don't >> get the engine killed before anticipated >> contact the primary risk is to the engine >> having a powered prop strike. >> >> Taking everything else through the battery >> master is the conventional philosophy. >> >> >> >> >> Bob . . . >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Hourmeter / oil pressure switch
From: "micreb" <n616pm(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 22, 2016
Hope someone might be able to help out here. I have a three pin oil pressure switch that feeds my low oil pressure light and turns on the Hobbs meter. The reference I have is a wiring diagram from Aeroelectric somewhere along the line but no figure or diagram number. The only reference is on the part, D-86117. I can't seem to cross it to anything useful to replace it. Would someone have a good number to order a replacement? Paul -------- I'd rather be flying than building but there's an end to the means here (I hope). Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461528#461528 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Coiled ignition systems
At 02:37 PM 10/22/2016, you wrote: > >A 7 amp CB seems reasonable but a 7 amp fuse makes me a bit nervous. >I seem to recall that when I looked at ignition currents I noted >that they went up at high rpm, at high temperatures, and in some >rare cases when the engine was not turning. The Kettering-coil style ignition system draws the most with engine stopped and points closed. Current goes down after engine starts and slightly less at higher rpm. >I did not notice any automotive systems that lightly fused the >ignition circuits. No rational for doing it in cars . . . all fused feeders are relatively robust with respect to their loads. In the case of an always-hot battery feed, the AVIATION rational is 5A max breakered, 7A max fused. For a Kettering coil/points system, 7A fusing is very robust. > So while I've never measured over 5 amps on my soob units, my > personal recommendation is a minimum 10 amp fuse on ignition > circuits that feed multiple cylinders even if they are solid state. Those are CDI or other more modern techology and DO behave differently from the Kettering coil/points system. > It may be that the peak currents as seen on a scope caught my > attention or that I just like more headroom on critical fuses. I > think part of my thought process might have been that on my system > if one solid state coil driver shorted full on it would not > necessarily take out the system fuse. I don't have any idea what > the tolerance is on an ATC fuse. I have 700 hours on the original > 10 amp fuses that feed the 4 cylinder soob. I've had two cases of > one cylinder losing power due to a partial coil failure. Once > during initial ground testing and once at around 500 hours. These > are DIS coils that each feed two cylinders but in both cases only > one cylinder lost power. Understand . . . but that's a different breed of cat . . . Even so, even real beastly electronic CDI systems (Lightspeed comes to mind) only draw 2.5A at 28V into a constant-power switchmode power supply . . . so 5A at 14V for a 6 cylinder engine at red-line rpm. That's a LOT of watts. Waaayyyy more than necessary but I think Klaus's engines are expected to run on spark-power alone (just kidding). But consider a 10A feeder in an automobile: 7A continuous is a reasonable load factor for a 10A fuse. In a 14v system 7A is 100 watts. There's just no reason that the ignition system should use such power. Consider the ignition excitation system on a Rotax that a gets fly-by of a single magnet once every crankshaft revolution . . . compare that with the array of magnets, windings and cores on the same flywheel designed to 18A at 14 volts or 250 watts . . . a huge difference in energy budgets/requirements. But your point is well taken and the caveat here is to KNOW the requirements your particular system. When in doubt measure it. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 23, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Hourmeter / oil pressure switch
At 09:06 PM 10/22/2016, you wrote: > >Hope someone might be able to help out here. >I have a three pin oil pressure switch that feeds my low oil >pressure light and turns on the Hobbs meter. >The reference I have is a wiring diagram from Aeroelectric somewhere >along the line but no figure or diagram number. >The only reference is on the part, D-86117. I can't seem to cross >it to anything useful to replace it. >Would someone have a good number to order a replacement? >Paul Here's an exemplar part http://tinyurl.com/zl7pxnt You can probably purchase a Standard Motor Products PS133 switch locally for the same or less money. There are probably dozens of similar parts offered by other companies . . . any 3-terminal device is suited to your task. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Coiled ignition systems
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 23, 2016
This discussion reminds me of the electric fire pump motor at work. I can not remember the size, but it was a big motor, 50 or 100 HP, 3 phase, 480 volts. There was no circuit protection, just a disconnect switch. The reasoning is that it is more important to save the factory from fire than to protect the fire pump motor or wiring. If anyone is interested, you can read about fire pump requirements: http://ecmweb.com/code-basics/power-pump Some aircraft builders might apply the same reasoning to their engine ignition system by using an oversize fuse. They would rather have the wires and coils burn up than take a chance on a fuse blowing and the engine quitting. Of course smoking components should be on the engine side of the firewall. I am not recommending a fuse size that would actually allow wires to smoke, just saying that a fuse could be one or two sizes bigger for a critical application. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461537#461537 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <rnjcurtis(at)charter.net>
Subject: Coiled ignition systems
Date: Oct 23, 2016
This discussion reminds me of the electric fire pump motor at work. I can not remember the size, but it was a big motor, 50 or 100 HP, 3 phase, 480 v olts. There was no circuit protection, just a disconnect switch. The reas oning is that it is more important to save the factory from fire than to pr otect the fire pump motor or wiring. If anyone is interested, you can read about fire pump requirements: http://ecmweb.com/code-basics/power-pump Some aircraft builders might apply the same reasoning to their engine ignit ion system by using an oversize fuse. They would rather have the wires and coils burn up than take a chance on a fuse blowing and the engine quitting . Of course smoking components should be on the engine side of the firewal l. I am not recommending a fuse size that would actually allow wires to smok e, just saying that a fuse could be one or two sizes bigger for a critical application. I would (ass u me) that the manufacturer=99s specs on installation o f an electronic ignition would spec wires to handle the maximum current dra w of the unit under all operating conditions. If one were to fuse it to th ese specs, then there should be no wire burning, and the fuse will not blow unless there is a failure causing more than the maximum current flow. Thi s might mean that if you have a =9Ccurrent hungry=9D device, th e fuse could possibly be a bit larger than the 7 amp max normally specified on production aircraft. If you have a problem with using a larger fuse, e ven though it is protecting your wiring, then I would suggest that the alte rnative is to purchase and install an ignition system with a current draw t hat is within your comfort zone. Roger ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 23, 2016
Subject: Re: Hourmeter / oil pressure switch
Here's another possibility: Carter A68301 On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 4:57 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 09:06 PM 10/22/2016, you wrote: > > > Hope someone might be able to help out here. > I have a three pin oil pressure switch that feeds my low oil pressure > light and turns on the Hobbs meter. > The reference I have is a wiring diagram from Aeroelectric somewhere along > the line but no figure or diagram number. > The only reference is on the part, D-86117. I can't seem to cross it to > anything useful to replace it. > Would someone have a good number to order a replacement? > Paul > > > Here's an exemplar part > > http://tinyurl.com/zl7pxnt > > You can probably purchase a Standard Motor > Products PS133 switch locally for the same > or less money. There are probably dozens > of similar parts offered by other companies > . . . any 3-terminal device is suited to > your task. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Hourmeter / oil pressure switch
From: "micreb" <n616pm(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 23, 2016
THANKS again Bob. One of the few part numbers I didn't record...... Live & Learn... Paul -------- I'd rather be flying than building but there's an end to the means here (I hope). Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461545#461545 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris" <fconsult(at)telus.net>
Subject: Coil ignition
Date: Oct 23, 2016
Thanks everyone for your input. I will wire it up as suggested. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Coiled ignition systems
I would (ass u me) that the manufacturer's specs on installation of an electronic ignition would spec wires to handle the maximum current draw of the unit under all operating conditions. Actually, the manufacture should be silent on the matter of wire sizes and protection OUTSIDE their product's boundaries. The classic interface specification for aircraft hardware speaks to a 'box' . . . some kind of device or collection of devices with goesintas and goesoutas. I.e. you supply operating energy and control command inputs to effect the specified result whether that's sparks, noises from the headphones, or fluid flows to the engine as outputs. You also list limits for which the product is designed and tested to tolerate which included but are not limited to performance, extraordinary demands, environment, etc. This philosophy offers a set of conditions that are easily verified during qualification and manufacturing in the laboratory environment. This is how we get the 'good housekeeping seal of approval' on the various mechno and electro-whizzies totally independent of the products ultimate application. It is up to the system designer to evaluate capabilities and limits for the sub-system for suitability to task in the super-system. This would include a failure mode effects analysis and characterizing the risks to aluminum and body parts should expectations not be realized. The fire-fighting pump narrative is interesting . . . it was probably the sum total of regulatory effects for two or more committees . . . who don't talk to each other . . . never had to fight a fire . . . and don't do system integration tasks aided by thoughtful FMEA. In the case of our single Kettering ignition system, exactly what kind of fault might we suppose would demand an extra-ordinary amount of energy yet have no effect on normal or even crippled operation of the ignition system? Get out your hammers, picks, soldering irons . . . any tool of your choice and create a fault within the system that falls within the scenario of concern. In the case of single, battery-powered Kettering (or even more modern automotive) ignition systems, we're evaluating the same risks tackled by all auto-conversion configurations since the DH Pietenpol bolted the model A engine into the Air Camper. http://tinyurl.com/jxctbso http://tinyurl.com/z5syrtf Interestingly enough, the model T engine was wwaayyyy ahead of its time. Like modern automobiles, each spark plug enjoyed its own, dedicated ignition coil. This offered some level of failure tolerance for the coils each of which behaved much like the 'shower of sparks' system and featured its own set of vibrator points and 'condenser'. [] The fundamentals for storing energy on an inductor, using 'transformer action' of a high ratio secondary, periodic charging and release of the energy through a switch and value of adding a capacitor across that switch to improve spark performance and switch life were well understood. The Ford system described above illustrates application of those principals. Tesla knew these things too as illustrated in his patent of 1893. http://tinyurl.com/gro5ruq But Kettering took those simple ideas and distilled them down to the simplest, most robust configuration that was also manufacture friendly. Not that in the Kettering patent, the system steil featured the 'buzzer', 'vibrator' or 'tembler' to provide multiple sparks per timing intervale. Later all the car manufactures capitalized on A. Kent's improved ignition coil ideas such that multiple sparking was no longer necessary. The vibrator went away (but was still use to boost magneto cranking performance aka "shower of sparks"). Yes, engine operation is real important for staying airborne. Assuming one chooses to fly with a single, battery powered ignition system, what value is secured by making the power feeder to that system extra robust with respect to current draw? Further, what's the demonstrated history of the Kettering style system. I've driven hundreds of thousands of miles behind such systems with nary a single engine-crippling failure of the ignition system. The factor germane this thread becomes clear with understanding how the various systems work . . . after knowing everything there is to know . . . exactly what condition MIGHT arise in the field to produce a system that draws too much current but still functioning? This question is tsame whether you're contemplating a Model A engine with a stock Ford ignition in a Pietenpol or a I0-540 with Light Speed's spark plug blaster Recall that the overwhelming majority of engine failures in airplanes are the result of fuel exhaustion. Mechanical failures come next. Given our understanding and experience with the Kettering system, what are the real risks loss of the ignition due to component wear-out or gross failure? It would be interesting to talk to the Corvair jockies. But I'd beet a case of beer to a pack of chewing gum that any ignition failures they have experienced were borne of poor maintenance or craftsmanship as opposed to unexpected component failure. Bottom line is that there is little 'comfort' to be secured with fatter fuses and wires . . . and much comfort to knowing the system's performance and limits and then doing the FMEA drives risks to acceptably low levels. I suggest further that the fire water pump analogy is not particularly meaningful in the well crafted heavier than air flying machine. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Hourmeter / oil pressure switch
At 10:52 AM 10/23/2016, you wrote: > >THANKS again Bob. >One of the few part numbers I didn't record...... >Live & Learn... >Paul Not a shortcoming on your part sir . . . there are HUNDREDS of suitable parts. Problem is that most are fitted with modern connectors that are not of the OBAM aviator's toolbox. So the biggest challenge is to find parts fitted with fast-ons . . . I suspect that Smiley Jack's Car Part's emporium would be able to cross any fast-on fitted switch with a dozen or more others. Good luck! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Larry Mac Donald <lm4(at)juno.com>
Subject: Re: Coiled ignition systems
Date: Oct 24, 2016
On Oct 24, 2016, at 1:22 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > I suspect the fire fighting pump story could br referenced to > that part of the NEC wheras one is forbidden to fuse or > breaker conductors when the failure of the equipment will > put lives at risk. Larry > The fire-fighting pump narrative is interesting . . . > it was probably the sum total of regulatory effects > for two or more committees . . . who don't talk > to each other . . . never had to fight a fire . . . > and don't do system integration tasks aided by > thoughtful FMEA. > ____________________________________________________________ 1 Trick To Erase Eye Bags & Wrinkles In 1 Minute Daily Tiply http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/580e68bc35b268bb06f2st03duc ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 24, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Coiled ignition systems
At 03:02 PM 10/24/2016, you wrote: >On Oct 24, 2016, at 1:22 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>I suspect the fire fighting pump story could br referenced to >>that part of the NEC wheras one is forbidden to fuse or >>breaker conductors when the failure of the equipment will >>put lives at risk. Does it really read that way? the whole idea behind conductor protection is to (1) prevent catastrophic failure of the conductor with the attendant risk of smoke, fire and propagation of the failure event to other conductors and their systems. And (2) prevent a failure from propagating upstream . . . the i(squared)*t constant for the upstream protection must be some large factor greater than any single protection . . . lest a short in your toaster turn out the neighborhood lights. I've demonstrated that a 22AWG wire, normally loaded to less than 5A, is not at serious risk for failure at loads up to 20A. http://tinyurl.com/h3zlpta Current limiters in airplanes (while they have the general appearance of fuses) have very robust I^2*T numbers. they protect wires from hard faults while avoiding nuisance trips due to opening transients due to operation of a downstream protector. There are fuses and breakers, then there are FUSES and BREAKERS. I suggest there are NO situations where feeders for any device cannot be selected to meet design/risk goals without making vague blanket statements about 'putting lives at risk'. Circuit protection has always been about avoinding risk to folks and hardware . . . it's just a matter of picking the right protection. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Coiled ignition systems
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 24, 2016
> Overcurrent protection [695.6(D)]. Overcurrent protection devices (OCPDs) must be sized to carry the sum of the locked-rotor current of the fire pump and pressure maintenance pump motor(s) indefinitely, and 100% of the ampere rating of the fire pump's accessory equipment. In other words, there is no over current protection, but there is short circuit protection. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461592#461592 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Larry Mac Donald <lm4(at)juno.com>
Subject: Re: Coiled ignition systems
Date: Oct 24, 2016
On Oct 24, 2016, at 8:03 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 03:02 PM 10/24/2016, you wrote: > It doesn't read exactly that way and I have forgotten how exactly how it does read. But, I do remember that there was a main breaker, fused, for much more t han the wire would need for protection. The conductors were kept in their own conduit and the overload protection on the motor of the gantry crane had to be removed. That sounds a lot like the fire protection motor. At least it does to me . Larry >> On Oct 24, 2016, at 1:22 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>> I suspect the fire fighting pump story could br referenced to >>> that part of the NEC wheras one is forbidden to fuse or >>> breaker conductors when the failure of the equipment will >>> put lives at risk. > > Does it really read that way? the whole idea > behind conductor protection is to (1) prevent > catastrophic failure of the conductor with > the attendant risk of smoke, fire and propagation > of the failure event to other conductors and > their systems. And (2) prevent > a failure from propagating upstream . . . the > i(squared)*t constant for the upstream protection > must be some large factor greater than any > single protection . . . lest a short in your > toaster turn out the neighborhood lights. ____________________________________________________________ This Man Cured His Nasty Nail Fungus in 10 Minutes adclk.co http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/580ea9b4dce4d29b42b5bst01duc ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Z16 Rotax 912 problem
From: "romaja" <abc6284(at)mac.com>
Date: Oct 24, 2016
I am performing the first few initial flight on a Rans S-20 Raven with a Rotax 912 ULS engine. My wiring is based on the Z16 architecture using the S704-1 alternator OV disconnect and crowbar OV protection. So far everything is working just fine with one exception. I noticed running the engine on the ground and once in the air that the 5 amp Gen breaker popped. This is the breaker between the main bus and the master switch. On both occasions, I reset it and it did not pop again. I am using the S700 2-10 switch as my master switch. The battery I am using is an EarthX Lithium Iron 680. Whilst in flight I was testing a coolant heater fan and when placed on high will draw 8 amps. Moments later I noticed the 5 amp breaker had popped. Possibly a coincidence. Normal amp draw in flight is around 7 or 8 amps without this heater running and a charged battery. Any ideas what is causing this CB to pop? Thanks Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461597#461597 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z16 Rotax 912 problem
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 25, 2016
The over-voltage module is tripping the circuit breaker. Options are: Replace the O.V. module with one not so sensitive. Remove the O.V. module. Put a filter in series with the O.V. module consisting of an inductor and capacitor. Leave it as is and reset the breaker whenever it trips. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461601#461601 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Yet another Smartphone app for Aviation
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 25, 2016
Hi All, First, let me note that the bug which prevented all barometer apps (think avAltimeter) from working in iOS 10 is now resolved in the newly released iOS 10.1. iOS 10.1 now prevents many apps from displaying landscape mode properly, but at least the altimeter is working! My new app is called Aviation Sunset Calculator in the App Store (on your device it will be "Civil Twilight" (it's shorter for display!)). This app provides all three night and day times required by FARs for night operation. What makes this app unique among the sunset apps already out there is that I perform all the celestial mechanics calculations inside the phone/iPad. Other apps use the internet to call out to the Naval Observatory or some other time server. Other useful features in this app include an internal database of all aerodromes with runways, worldwide, and the ability to change the the date forwards or backwards in time. If you do have an internet connection, you can even find the twilight times for any valid street address on earth. So, for example, you can use this app while airborne to find the expected twilight times at your destination. Since the FAA makes life interesting with regulations mandating three different times to reference for night operations, I also include the relevant FARs in the app's Help pages. The web page for this app is http://www.aviametrix.com/sunset/ The web page for the altimeter app is http://www.aviametrix.com -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461602#461602 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z16 Rotax 912 problem
From: "romaja" <abc6284(at)mac.com>
Date: Oct 25, 2016
Thank you very much. Jim :D Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461604#461604 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 25, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z16 Rotax 912 problem
At 09:43 PM 10/24/2016, you wrote: > >I am performing the first few initial flight on a Rans S-20 Raven >with a Rotax 912 ULS engine. > >My wiring is based on the Z16 architecture using the S704-1 >alternator OV disconnect and crowbar OV protection. So far >everything is working just fine with one exception. > >I noticed running the engine on the ground and once in the air that >the 5 amp Gen breaker popped. This is the breaker between the main >bus and the master switch. On both occasions, I reset it and it did >not pop again. > >I am using the S700 2-10 switch as my master switch. The battery I >am using is an EarthX Lithium Iron 680. > >Whilst in flight I was testing a coolant heater fan and when placed >on high will draw 8 amps. Moments later I noticed the 5 amp breaker >had popped. Possibly a coincidence. > >Normal amp draw in flight is around 7 or 8 amps without this heater >running and a charged battery. > > > Any ideas what is causing this CB to pop? Sounds like a 'twitchy' ov module. If you'll send it to me I'll check it an correct as necessary. It's not 'unsafe' to fly without it in the interim. Bob Nuckolls PO Box 130 Medicine Lodge, KS 67104-0130 Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z16 Rotax 912 problem
From: "romaja" <abc6284(at)mac.com>
Date: Oct 25, 2016
Sounds like a 'twitchy' ov module. If you'll send it to me I'll check it an correct as necessary. It's not 'unsafe' to fly without it in the interim. Bob Nuckolls PO Box 130 Medicine Lodge, KS 67104-0130 Bob . . .[/quote] Thank you Bob, I will send it to you. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461615#461615 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z16 Rotax 912 problem
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 25, 2016
Jim, take Bob up on his offer. I am not familiar with a 704 module, unless you are talking about the relay, which is very unlikely to trip the breaker. Since you have a SkyView, can you download the data log and analyze it? MS Excel can search for the maximum voltage. If the voltage really is high, then the crowbar over voltage module is doing its job by tripping the breaker. I can not recommend a filter, usually they do not help much. Search Amazon for "Noise Filter". Many modern avionics can be powered by either 14 or 28 volts, so over voltage is not as big of a concern as it used to be. On the other hand, the Lithium battery does not like over voltage. Do you have high and low voltage alarms set up in the SkyView? -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461621#461621 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 25, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z16 Rotax 912 problem
At 04:53 PM 10/25/2016, you wrote: > >Jim, take Bob up on his offer. I am not familiar with a 704 module, >unless you are talking about the relay, which is very unlikely to >trip the breaker. Here are the details http://tinyurl.com/japwbsu Yes, the S704 is a relay used in conjunction with a crowbar ov module in Rotax installations . . . http://tinyurl.com/7vp9g4e > Since you have a SkyView, can you download the data log and > analyze it? MS Excel can search for the maximum voltage. If the > voltage really is high, then the crowbar over voltage module is > doing its job by tripping the breaker. I have had a FEW . . . meaning two or three in 20 years . . . instances where switching some appliance on or off in a composite aircraft would trip the AEC9003 or the B&C clone of this device. A little background on ov protection products . . . the very first product I designed for TC aircraft was about 1974 and I had just gone to work for Electro-Mech, Inc. in Wichita. It was an over-voltage RELAY and the design goal of the moment was that a step increase of sensed voltage from normal (14.2) to 20.0 volts would cause a trip in 100mS plus or minus perhaps 10mS. That was the 'comfortable' requirement embraced by the TC aircraft industry at that time. Yet, even in 1974, a DO160 qualified, 14v appliance had to withstand 20 volts for ONE SECOND, and 40 volts for 100mS. Having roots of design philosophy fertilize in that environment, my OV protection designs have tended to run on, shall we say, the 'twitchy' side of trip sensitivity. On the whole, not a terrible decision. Since that time, perhaps 10,000 ov relays (and crowbar ov modules) have been designed and manufactured to that design philosophy . . . and nuisance trips by the exceptional transient event have been VERY rare. But I have personally attend to two such events and there have, no doubt, be a few others. The 'fix' has been to modify the CbOVM for those airplanes with longer time constants . . . typically 2 to 5 times the original design goal. ALL future ov protection systems originating from this writer's CAD system will shoot for a 500mS response to a 20 volt event and a 50mS response to a 40v event. Further, timing will no longer be controlled by RC time constants and trip-voltage of some semiconductor. Future designs are microprocessor sampled and time under software control. > I can not recommend a filter, usually they do not help > much. Search Amazon for "Noise Filter". Many modern avionics can > be powered by either 14 or 28 volts, so over voltage is not as big > of a concern as it used to be. On the other hand, the Lithium > battery does not like over voltage. Do you have high and low > voltage alarms set up in the SkyView? He is very unlikely to see a REAL ov event on the data storage system. Since the even occurs in response to some switching event, we're 99% sure that the 'problem' originates with a singularly noisy event driving a ov protection design with some rather ancient roots in legacy operating philosophies. So yes, the 'fix' is to simply slow down the OV protection sense profile by a factor of 4 or 5 times which is still very conservative compared to DO-160 qualification requirements. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Peter Russell <Peteruss2(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: please unsubscribe email
Date: Oct 27, 2016
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 27, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: please unsubscribe email
At 02:49 PM 10/27/2016, you wrote: > According to your profile shown here, you are subscribed to more than one forum. You can clear the check boxes for the activities you want to close and hit 'execute' yourself. http://tinyurl.com/rp8st Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Lithium Battery destroys a NASA robot
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 28, 2016
Adding a log to the fire 8) Weight savings isn't always the only consideration in aircraft design! https://www.engadget.com/2016/10/28/lithium-battery-failure-wipes-out-darpa-robot-at-nasa/ -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461683#461683 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Lithium Battery destroys a NASA robot
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 28, 2016
And continuing with that logic, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RocketMotorTwo we should all convert our planes to gliders, since there was a fuel explosion somewhere. ;-) Caution in aviation is a good idea, but worrying about the wrong problem doesn't help. (Virtually no one thinks using Lithium Ion batteries for primary electrical power in a homebuilt is a good idea.) Charlie On 10/28/2016 11:02 AM, rampil wrote: > > Adding a log to the fire 8) > Weight savings isn't always the only consideration in aircraft design! > > https://www.engadget.com/2016/10/28/lithium-battery-failure-wipes-out-darpa-robot-at-nasa/ > > -------- > Ira N224XS > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 28, 2016
Subject: Re: Lithium Battery destroys a NASA robot
Not sure where you came up with that one. Nearly everyone I know with an experimental is now using a lithium battery (and a few certified guys on the sly). Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve. On Oct 28, 2016 10:02 AM, "Charlie England" wrote: > ceengland7(at)gmail.com> > > And continuing with that logic, > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RocketMotorTwo > we should all convert our planes to gliders, since there was a fuel > explosion somewhere. > ;-) > Caution in aviation is a good idea, but worrying about the wrong problem > doesn't help. (Virtually no one thinks using Lithium Ion batteries for > primary electrical power in a homebuilt is a good idea.) > > Charlie > > On 10/28/2016 11:02 AM, rampil wrote: > >> >> Adding a log to the fire 8) >> Weight savings isn't always the only consideration in aircraft design! >> >> https://www.engadget.com/2016/10/28/lithium-battery-failure- >> wipes-out-darpa-robot-at-nasa/ >> >> -------- >> Ira N224XS >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Lithium Battery destroys a NASA robot
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 28, 2016
Maybe, but I strongly doubt that they are using a Lithium *ION* battery for their primary battery in their a/c. They are almost certainly using Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (with built-in battery management). If they really are using Lithium *ION* batteries, then they really do need to see the video that Ira posted. https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=lithium%20ion%20vs%20lithium%20iron There are many different battery chemistries that include lithium in the mix; and they can have very different characteristics. Charlie On 10/28/2016 1:16 PM, Ken Ryan wrote: > > Not sure where you came up with that one. Nearly everyone I know with > an experimental is now using a lithium battery (and a few certified > guys on the sly). > > Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve. > > > On Oct 28, 2016 10:02 AM, "Charlie England" > wrote: > > > > > And continuing with that logic, > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RocketMotorTwo > > we should all convert our planes to gliders, since there was a > fuel explosion somewhere. > ;-) > Caution in aviation is a good idea, but worrying about the wrong > problem doesn't help. (Virtually no one thinks using Lithium Ion > batteries for primary electrical power in a homebuilt is a good idea.) > > Charlie > > On 10/28/2016 11:02 AM, rampil wrote: > > > > > Adding a log to the fire 8) > Weight savings isn't always the only consideration in aircraft > design! > > https://www.engadget.com/2016/10/28/lithium-battery-failure-wipes-out-darpa-robot-at-nasa/ > > > -------- > Ira N224XS > > > =================================== > - > Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > =================================== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > =================================== > WIKI - > errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > =================================== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > =================================== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Lithium Battery destroys a NASA robot
From: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 28, 2016
Don't confuse Lithium ION with newer, safer, Lithium IRON phosphate despite the similar sounding names. Ken On 28/10/2016 2:16 PM, Ken Ryan wrote: > > Not sure where you came up with that one. Nearly everyone I know with > an experimental is now using a lithium battery (and a few certified > guys on the sly). > > Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve. > > > On Oct 28, 2016 10:02 AM, "Charlie England" > wrote: > > > > > And continuing with that logic, > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RocketMotorTwo > > we should all convert our planes to gliders, since there was a > fuel explosion somewhere. > ;-) > Caution in aviation is a good idea, but worrying about the wrong > problem doesn't help. (Virtually no one thinks using Lithium Ion > batteries for primary electrical power in a homebuilt is a good idea.) > > Charlie > > On 10/28/2016 11:02 AM, rampil wrote: > > > > > Adding a log to the fire 8) > Weight savings isn't always the only consideration in aircraft > design! > > https://www.engadget.com/2016/10/28/lithium-battery-failure-wipes-out-darpa-robot-at-nasa/ > > > -------- > Ira N224XS > > > =================================== > - > Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > =================================== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > =================================== > WIKI - > errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > =================================== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > =================================== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Lithium Battery destroys a NASA robot
From: Lyle Peterson <lyleap(at)centurylink.net>
Date: Oct 28, 2016
The headline distorts the facts. Yes, lithium batteries will cumbust if they aren't handled properly and carefully. So too will dynamite explode if not handled carefully. Gasoline vapors will burn if an ignition source is provided. Lead/acid batteries will explode. There is a control circuit built in to lithium battery packs that monitors the voltage and the cell temperature. It is there for a very good reason - To reduce the likelihood of a cell being overcharged or overheated and thus starting to burn. The next time the battery in your laptop fails completely take it apart, carefully. You will find a small circuit board in the battery. It is connected to each set of paralleled cells. There is also a thermistor connected to the board that monitors the pack temperature. It is this control that the engineers forgot to enable. It is also dangerous to go to bed. People die there. So too it is dangerous to get up in the morning. "Let's be careful out there." On 10/28/2016 11:02 AM, rampil wrote: > > Adding a log to the fire 8) > Weight savings isn't always the only consideration in aircraft design! > > https://www.engadget.com/2016/10/28/lithium-battery-failure-wipes-out-darpa-robot-at-nasa/ > > -------- > Ira N224XS > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461683#461683 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 28, 2016
Subject: Re: Lithium Battery destroys a NASA robot
It is my understanding that all of the lithium batteries (including LiFePO) fall under the general category of "lithium ion." My source is Battery University, here: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/lithium_based_batteries and here: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion Ken On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Charlie England wrote: > Maybe, but I strongly doubt that they are using a Lithium *ION* battery > for their primary battery in their a/c. They are almost certainly using > Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (with built-in battery management). If > they really are using Lithium *ION* batteries, then they really do need to > see the video that Ira posted. > > https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1& > espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=lithium%20ion%20vs%20lithium%20iron > > There are many different battery chemistries that include lithium in the > mix; and they can have very different characteristics. > > Charlie > > On 10/28/2016 1:16 PM, Ken Ryan wrote: > > Not sure where you came up with that one. Nearly everyone I know with an > experimental is now using a lithium battery (and a few certified guys on > the sly). > > Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve. > > On Oct 28, 2016 10:02 AM, "Charlie England" wrote: > >> ceengland7(at)gmail.com> >> >> And continuing with that logic, >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RocketMotorTwo >> we should all convert our planes to gliders, since there was a fuel >> explosion somewhere. >> ;-) >> Caution in aviation is a good idea, but worrying about the wrong problem >> doesn't help. (Virtually no one thinks using Lithium Ion batteries for >> primary electrical power in a homebuilt is a good idea.) >> >> Charlie >> >> On 10/28/2016 11:02 AM, rampil wrote: >> >>> >>> Adding a log to the fire 8) >>> Weight savings isn't always the only consideration in aircraft design! >>> >>> https://www.engadget.com/2016/10/28/lithium-battery-failure- >>> wipes-out-darpa-robot-at-nasa/ >>> >>> -------- >>> Ira N224XS >>> >>> >> >> =================================== >> - >> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www. >> matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> =================================== >> FORUMS - >> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> =================================== >> WIKI - >> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >> =================================== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> =================================== >> >> >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Lithium Battery destroys a NASA robot
At 11:02 AM 10/28/2016, you wrote: > >Adding a log to the fire 8) >Weight savings isn't always the only consideration in aircraft design! . . . a point I've tried to illuminate for several years. In the articles I did for Kit Planes on batteies, a question I posed to owner/ops of OBAM aircraft asked them to consider: "suppose you DO take 10 pounds out of the empty weight of your aircraft . . . now what?" By how many feet will this reduce landing/takeoff roll? By how many feet/min will this increase rated of climb? By what amount will this increase cruising speed, fuel efficiency or service ceiling? If 10 pounds comes off the airframe, will the fuel capacity grow by 10 pounds? Next to last, whan was the last time you delay launch into the wild blue to off-load fuel or luggage because you were . . . say . . . 20# over gross? Finally, what is the return on investment for having expended $xxx versus $yyy in the selection of your flight battery. Consider the economics of having to be more cognizant of the $xxx battery's special vulnerabilities for inadvertent, permanent damage thus trashing what ever service life remained. Burt Rutan went through hundreds of similar weight effects analysis decisions because his mission aircraft tool 5 pounds of fuel to carry one pound of airplane around the world. One pound of empty weight reduction was a 6 pound reduction of takeoff weight. But the battery in our airplane is but one of few opportunities for weight reduction . . . with costs that may well be difficult if not impossible to justify economically. To be sure, there are numerous Lithium products crafted for use in airplanes demonstrated to present little or no risk over their lead-acid counterpart. But NASA robots, hoverboards, cell phones, laptops, etc. are different markets with trade-offs in design that have nothing to do with aircraft. The aviation battery market is infinitely more sophisticated than for those factories that power up fire-prone hoverboards . . . http://tinyurl.com/zdlf65d . . . so it's up to US to evaluate the potential benefit/risk ratio for bolting a new battery into our airplane. Do it for reasons that make good sense to you and KNOW your supplier. Right now, LiIPo is the chemistry of choice paired with capable battery management electronics not unlike EarthX, TrueBlue and no doubt, others. In my not so humble opinion, whoever was in charge of the battery system on that NASA robot project should be VERY carefully screened at his/her next performance review. I could tell some tales too on individuals with poor judgement on alternator selection for another taxpayer funded project . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Lithium Battery destroys a NASA robot
At 01:59 PM 10/28/2016, you wrote: > > >The headline distorts the facts. Yes, lithium batteries will >cumbust if they aren't handled properly and carefully. So too will >dynamite explode if not handled carefully. Gasoline vapors will >burn if an ignition source is provided. Lead/acid batteries will explode. Agreed. I've often suggested that the step up from lead-acid to lithium was akin to figuring out how to burn nitroglycerin in our engine. Great power to weight ratio but with practical problems. >There is a control circuit built in to lithium battery packs that >monitors the voltage and the cell temperature. It is there for a >very good reason - To reduce the likelihood of a cell being >overcharged or overheated and thus starting to burn. It's not an automatic thing. I've dissected the little 'pillow' batteries used in my grand-children's helicopters and found tiny etched circuit boards of unknown quality or performance . . . but yes, there was some form of electronic 'smarts'. At the same time, there are manufacturers of all manner of lithium products who may or may not include such features . . . perhaps expecting the system integrator to add the necessary electronics. The TrueBlue certified batteries are huge arrays of cylindrical cells . . . manufactured by A123 if memory serves. I'm pretty sure these cells are raw chemistry with no 'smarts'. I'll dissect some 18650 cells I have on hand one of these days and see what's inside them . . . at MOST it will be a fuse or other current limiting device. there is NO protection for over discharge or over charge. I'm pretty sure there's no 'smarts' in an AeroVolts product and there have been a few 'melt downs' that behaved more like burning enclosures than of a lithium fed fire. The word 'lithium' is only a imperative to inquire deeper into how it is compounded and implemented from the system perspective. Further, 'news' stories about exploding batteries have little if any relevance to our deliberations. Yeah, lithium has some risks as does gasoline or even lead-acid. The trick is to reduce those risks in a manner that would make Walter Beech or Duane Wallace proud. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: A R Goldman <argoldman(at)aol.com>
Date: Oct 28, 2016
Subject: Re: Lithium Battery destroys a NASA robot
Not so sure you are correct about that last statement. Perhaps that is your own prejudice. Additionally everybody seems to be lumping lithium batteries in one groups independent of the fact that there are various chemistries each involving lithium but each with its unique power density and safety. It would be a great idea if when talking(writing) that the specific type of chemistry of the battery is stated so that the conversation begins to have some real meaning. Rich Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 28, 2016, at 12:54 PM, Charlie England wrote: > > > And continuing with that logic, > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RocketMotorTwo > we should all convert our planes to gliders, since there was a fuel explosion somewhere. > ;-) > Caution in aviation is a good idea, but worrying about the wrong problem doesn't help. (Virtually no one thinks using Lithium Ion batteries for primary electrical power in a homebuilt is a good idea.) > > Charlie > >> On 10/28/2016 11:02 AM, rampil wrote: >> >> Adding a log to the fire 8) >> Weight savings isn't always the only consideration in aircraft design! >> >> https://www.engadget.com/2016/10/28/lithium-battery-failure-wipes-out-darpa-robot-at-nasa/ >> >> -------- >> Ira N224XS >> > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 28, 2016
Subject: Re: Lithium Battery destroys a NASA robot
I suppose you could make a case for that; lithium ions are likely participants in all the various chemistries. However, the only chemistry that seems to be in common use for starting and primary reserve energy in homebuilts isLithium Iron Phosphate(LiFePO4) If you look at the links in the google search I referenced earlier, the FePLiO4 typically compared to 'lithium ion' when evaluating suitability and safety. (ex: http://www.brighthubengineering.com/power-generation-distribution/123906-comparison-of-lithium-ion-to-lithium-iron-battery/) Technically, the 'lithium ion' they are talking about is likely to be lithium cobalt or lithium manganese. But colloquial terms are typically 'lithium ion' vs 'lithium iron' when discussing them. While it's possible that NASA was using lithium iron in that robot and the reporter used the catchall 'lithium ion' to describe it, it's more likely it was something other than lithium iron phosphate (probably lithium cobalt). Understand, I'm not advocating the use of FePLiO4; For me, it's still too expensive (and still a bit more risky) than a regular SLA. But I wouldn't be terrified to fly with someone using one. Not sure I could say the same for a lithium ion (cobalt or manganese) battery. Does that help? Charlie On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 2:19 PM, Ken Ryan wrote: > It is my understanding that all of the lithium batteries (including > LiFePO) fall under the general category of "lithium ion." My source is > Battery University, here: > > http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/lithium_based_batteries > > and here: > > http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion > > Ken > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Charlie England > wrote: > >> Maybe, but I strongly doubt that they are using a Lithium *ION* battery >> for their primary battery in their a/c. They are almost certainly using >> Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (with built-in battery management). If >> they really are using Lithium *ION* batteries, then they really do need to >> see the video that Ira posted. >> >> https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&e >> spv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=lithium%20ion%20vs%20lithium%20iron >> >> There are many different battery chemistries that include lithium in the >> mix; and they can have very different characteristics. >> >> Charlie >> >> On 10/28/2016 1:16 PM, Ken Ryan wrote: >> >> Not sure where you came up with that one. Nearly everyone I know with an >> experimental is now using a lithium battery (and a few certified guys on >> the sly). >> >> Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve. >> >> On Oct 28, 2016 10:02 AM, "Charlie England" wrote: >> >>> ceengland7(at)gmail.com> >>> >>> And continuing with that logic, >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RocketMotorTwo >>> we should all convert our planes to gliders, since there was a fuel >>> explosion somewhere. >>> ;-) >>> Caution in aviation is a good idea, but worrying about the wrong problem >>> doesn't help. (Virtually no one thinks using Lithium Ion batteries for >>> primary electrical power in a homebuilt is a good idea.) >>> >>> Charlie >>> >>> On 10/28/2016 11:02 AM, rampil wrote: >>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> Adding a log to the fire 8) >>>> Weight savings isn't always the only consideration in aircraft design! >>>> >>>> https://www.engadget.com/2016/10/28/lithium-battery-failure- >>>> wipes-out-darpa-robot-at-nasa/ >>>> >>>> -------- >>>> Ira N224XS >>>> >>>> >>> >>> =================================== >>> - >>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.mat >>> ronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >>> =================================== >>> FORUMS - >>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >>> =================================== >>> WIKI - >>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >>> =================================== >>> b Site - >>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> =================================== >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2016
From: bobsv35b(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Lithium Battery destroys a NASA robot
Good Evening Bob, As usual, very informative! Happy Skies, Old Bob -----Original Message----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Sent: Fri, Oct 28, 2016 3:40 pm Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Lithium Battery destroys a NASA robot At 01:59 PM 10/28/2016, you wrote: --> AeroElectric-List messageposted by: Lyle Peterson The headline distorts the facts. Yes, lithium batteries willcumbust if they aren't handled properly and carefully. So too willdynamite explode if not handled carefully. Gasoline vapors willburn if an ignition source is provided. Lead/acid batteries willexplode. Agreed. I've often suggested that the step up from lead-acid to lithium was akin to figuring out how to burn nitroglycerin in our engine. Great power to weight ratio but with practical problems. There is a controlcircuit built in to lithium battery packs that monitors the voltage andthe cell temperature. It is there for a very good reason - Toreduce the likelihood of a cell being overcharged or overheated and thusstarting to burn. It's not an automatic thing. I've dissected the little 'pillow' batteries used in my grand-children's helicopters and found tiny etched circuit boards of unknown quality or performance . . . but yes, there was some form of electronic 'smarts'. At the same time, there are manufacturers of all manner of lithium products who may or may not include such features . . . perhaps expecting the system integrator to add the necessary electronics. The TrueBlue certified batteries are huge arrays of cylindrical cells . . . manufactured by A123 if memory serves. I'm pretty sure these cells are raw chemistry with no 'smarts'. I'll dissect some 18650 cells I have on hand one of these days and see what's inside them . . . at MOST it will be a fuse or other current limiting device. there is NO protection for over discharge or over charge. I'm pretty sure there's no 'smarts' in an AeroVolts product and there have been a few 'melt downs' that behaved more like burning enclosures than of a lithium fed fire. The word 'lithium' is only a imperative to inquire deeper into how it is compounded and implemented from the system perspective. Further, 'news' stories about exploding batteries have little if any relevance to our deliberations. Yeah, lithium has some risks as does gasoline or even lead-acid. The trick is to reduce those risks in a manner that would make Walter Beech or Duane Wallace proud. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 28, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Lithium Battery destroys a NASA robot
At 01:59 PM 10/28/2016, you wrote: > > >The headline distorts the facts. Yes, lithium batteries will >cumbust if they aren't handled properly and carefully. So too will >dynamite explode if not handled carefully. Gasoline vapors will >burn if an ignition source is provided. Lead/acid batteries will explode. Agreed. I've often suggested that the step up from lead-acid to lithium was akin to figuring out how to burn nitroglycerin in our engine. Great power to weight ratio but with practical problems. >There is a control circuit built in to lithium battery packs that >monitors the voltage and the cell temperature. It is there for a >very good reason - To reduce the likelihood of a cell being >overcharged or overheated and thus starting to burn. It's not an automatic thing. I've dissected the little 'pillow' batteries used in my grand-children's helicopters and found tiny etched circuit boards of unknown quality or performance . . . but yes, there was some form of electronic 'smarts'. At the same time, there are manufacturers of all manner of lithium products who may or may not include such features . . . perhaps expecting the system integrator to add the necessary electronics. The TrueBlue certified batteries are huge arrays of cylindrical cells . . . manufactured by A123 if memory serves. I'm pretty sure these cells are raw chemistry with no 'smarts'. I'll dissect some 18650 cells I have on hand one of these days and see what's inside them . . . at MOST it will be a fuse or other current limiting device. there is NO protection for over discharge or over charge. I'm pretty sure there's no 'smarts' in an AeroVolts product and there have been a few 'melt downs' that behaved more like burning enclosures than of a lithium fed fire. The word 'lithium' is only a imperative to inquire deeper into how it is compounded and implemented from the system perspective. Further, 'news' stories about exploding batteries have little if any relevance to our deliberations. Yeah, lithium has some risks as does gasoline or even lead-acid. The trick is to reduce those risks in a manner that would make Walter Beech or Duane Wallace proud. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 28, 2016
Subject: What Causes Battery to Go Bad
My car battery died after 9 months. In the last 20 years I seem to have very bad luck with batteries in various vehicles. These vehicles are classic cars used rarely (I disconnect the negative terminal when not in use) and some are often used daily drivers (stock cars with stock electric systems). It seems back in the day "maintenance free" batteries seemed to last longer. Is there something different now a days? Bill Hunter ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z16 Rotax 912 problem
From: "romaja" <abc6284(at)mac.com>
Date: Oct 28, 2016
user9253 wrote: > Jim, take Bob up on his offer. I am not familiar with a 704 module, unless you are talking about the relay, which is very unlikely to trip the breaker. Since you have a SkyView, can you download the data log and analyze it? MS Excel can search for the maximum voltage. If the voltage really is high, then the crowbar over voltage module is doing its job by tripping the breaker. I can not recommend a filter, usually they do not help much. Search Amazon for "Noise Filter". Many modern avionics can be powered by either 14 or 28 volts, so over voltage is not as big of a concern as it used to be. On the other hand, the Lithium battery does not like over voltage. Do you have high and low voltage alarms set up in the SkyView? Yes I have high voltage and low voltage set on my Skyview. I will check to see where I set them as I cant recall. Thanks Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461704#461704 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 29, 2016
From: Charles Kuss <chaskuss(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: What Causes Battery to Go Bad
Bill, Simply disconnecting the batteries does not prevent them from discharging while sitting. It merely slows down the rate of discharge [not having to supply power to those electrical circuits which run even with the ignition switch off] It's best to keep a "trickle" charger on batteries that sit, unused for long periods of time. I would suggest that you have your alternator(s) tested for shorted diode(s) in the rectifier bridge. A diode is the electrical equivalent to a check valve in a hydraulic system. It allows current to flow in one direction only. The rectifier's purpose is to change the AC current the alternator makes into DC current that your car's battery needs. Diodes can fail two ways. Fail Open [most common] - the diode no longer allows any current to pass. This causes the alternator to lose a portion of it's output capacity. Fail Shorted - this allows the alternator to pass a portion of it's output as AC current. No drop in the alternator's capacity will be noted. However, pumping AC current into a DC battery will kill the battery in a matter of months, hence the premature battery failures. Why do alternator diodes fail? Generally, because the battery is low and when the engine starts, the alternator has to generate a LOT of current to charge the battery. You can NOT test for shorted diodes with an ammeter. You need proper testing equipment to find this condition. So, if you find that you have shorted alternator diodes, repair the alternator(s). Then make sure that each battery is fully charged BEFORE you start each engine. That way, you don't over tax the alternator right after start up. Charlie -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 10/28/16, William Hunter wrote: Subject: AeroElectric-List: What Causes Battery to Go Bad To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Date: Friday, October 28, 2016, 7:54 PM My car battery died after 9 months. In the last 20 years I seem to have very bad luck with batteries in various vehicles. These vehicles are classic cars used rarely (I disconnect the negative terminal when not in use) and some are often used daily drivers (stock cars with stock electric systems). It seems back in the day "maintenance free" batteries seemed to last longer. Is there something different now a days? Bill Hunter ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 29, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: What Causes Battery to Go Bad
My car battery died after 9 months. In the last 20 years I seem to have very bad luck with batteries in various vehicles. These vehicles are classic cars used rarely (I disconnect the negative terminal when not in use) and some are often used daily drivers (stock cars with stock electric systems). The 'classics' did not load the battery in the normal 'parked' condition. Disconnecting the battery in such vehicles for long term storage was seldom, if ever, a useful thing to do. I think the electric clock was the biggest load with very small energy requirements. Modern vehicles MAY have small battery demands while parked. I think my wife's Saturn has a battery load on the order of 0.02 amps when parked. This is greater than the normal and expected self-discharge current characteristic of flooded batteries. If her car is not driven for a long period of time, the battery will be discharged. Further, a battery stored in a discharged condition self-destructs. It seems back in the day "maintenance free" batteries seemed to last longer. Is there something different now a days? I don't think so. Modern cars may have some very small persistent loads even when parked . . . the older cars will not. Batteries that sit for long periods of time will benefit from use of a 'maintainer' . . . not a 'trickle charger' the maintainer simply holds a battery's terminal voltage just above that at which self-discharging takes place. A maintainer holds a nominally 12.9v battery up to about 13.2 to 13.5 volts. Not high enough to do any charging but higher than normal open circuit volts. Hence, the ac mains become a source of energy to offset self-discharging. I used to have a stable of laboratory batteries that were stored on a single maintainer all connected in parallel. Some of them were service-ready after more than ten years. A 'trickle charger' puts a small but constant charge into a battery . . . which can be greater than the self-discharge current . . . and is ultimately deleterious to a battery on long term storage. I still have a couple of Battery Tenders I keep attached to my battery inventory. There's a host of products out there. http://tinyurl.com/zzjhalk The Battery Tender and the Schumacher SEM1562 are used in my shop. Walmart stocks the Schumacher product for about $25. ================ Simply disconnecting the batteries does not prevent them from discharging while sitting. It merely slows down the rate of discharge [not having to supply power to those electrical circuits which run even with the ignition switch off] It's best to keep a "trickle" charger on batteries that sit, unused for long periods of time. Generally true . . . with additions. The lead-acid battery also has a self-discharge characteristic that is a function of dissolved oxygen in the electrolyte. Flooded batteries of bygone times would run down in 90-120 days just sitting unload. Maintenance free batteries were a step up for controlling self discharge with the sealed battery being the present king of long term storage. An SVLA battery should retain 70-80% of capacity after a year of storage as long as the temperatures are not really high. I would suggest that you have your alternator(s) tested for shorted diode(s) in the rectifier bridge. Then make sure that each battery is fully charged BEFORE you start each engine. That way, you don't over tax the alternator right after start up. I've never encountered such a failure. The power diodes used in alternators are exceedingly robust devices and their reverse leakage at battery voltage is measured in nanoamps. Unlike generators (with brushes and commutators that carry output current), the alternator has no such weak-link. Alternators are inherently current limited. Normal operations . . . even starting an engine with jumpers with the alternator grunting the load of a fully discharge battery does no 'over tax' an alternator in any serious way. I've seen that admonition for making sure your battery is fully charged before firing up the engine with a new alternator . . and I'm mystified by it. These things are explained in more detail in The AeroElectric Connection. You can download a copy here http://www.aeroelectric.com/Book/AEC_R12A.pdf or acquire a paper-copy here http://tinyurl.com/cgr42l5 Your unexplained short term failure may be a one-of event. But as a general observation, today's battery products are as good as they ever have been. Persistent failures have an explanation that should and can be identified. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Hunter" <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Subject: What Causes Battery to Go Bad
Date: Oct 29, 2016
Thanks All!!! This is very good information. My 87 year old father and I have had this conversation numerous times over the decades and I will share this email thread with him. BTW.the most recent victim was a Saturn. .. Cheers!!! Bill Hunter From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2016 3:21 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What Causes Battery to Go Bad My car battery died after 9 months. In the last 20 years I seem to have very bad luck with batteries in various vehicles. These vehicles are classic cars used rarely (I disconnect the negative terminal when not in use) and some are often used daily drivers (stock cars with stock electric systems). The 'classics' did not load the battery in the normal 'parked' condition. Disconnecting the battery in such vehicles for long term storage was seldom, if ever, a useful thing to do. I think the electric clock was the biggest load with very small energy requirements. Modern vehicles MAY have small battery demands while parked. I think my wife's Saturn has a battery load on the order of 0.02 amps when parked. This is greater than the normal and expected self-discharge current characteristic of flooded batteries. If her car is not driven for a long period of time, the battery will be discharged. Further, a battery stored in a discharged condition self-destructs. It seems back in the day "maintenance free" batteries seemed to last longer. Is there something different now a days? I don't think so. Modern cars may have some very small persistent loads even when parked . . . the older cars will not. Batteries that sit for long periods of time will benefit from use of a 'maintainer' . . . not a 'trickle charger' the maintainer simply holds a battery's terminal voltage just above that at which self-discharging takes place. A maintainer holds a nominally 12.9v battery up to about 13.2 to 13.5 volts. Not high enough to do any charging but higher than normal open circuit volts. Hence, the ac mains become a source of energy to offset self-discharging. I used to have a stable of laboratory batteries that were stored on a single maintainer all connected in parallel. Some of them were service-ready after more than ten years. A 'trickle charger' puts a small but constant charge into a battery . . . which can be greater than the self-discharge current . . . and is ultimately deleterious to a battery on long term storage. I still have a couple of Battery Tenders I keep attached to my battery inventory. There's a host of products out there. http://tinyurl.com/zzjhalk The Battery Tender and the Schumacher SEM1562 are used in my shop. Walmart stocks the Schumacher product for about $25. ================ Simply disconnecting the batteries does not prevent them from discharging while sitting. It merely slows down the rate of discharge [not having to supply power to those electrical circuits which run even with the ignition switch off] It's best to keep a "trickle" charger on batteries that sit, unused for long periods of time. Generally true . . . with additions. The lead-acid battery also has a self-discharge characteristic that is a function of dissolved oxygen in the electrolyte. Flooded batteries of bygone times would run down in 90-120 days just sitting unload. Maintenance free batteries were a step up for controlling self discharge with the sealed battery being the present king of long term storage. An SVLA battery should retain 70-80% of capacity after a year of storage as long as the temperatures are not really high. I would suggest that you have your alternator(s) tested for shorted diode(s) in the rectifier bridge. Then make sure that each battery is fully charged BEFORE you start each engine. That way, you don't over tax the alternator right after start up. I've never encountered such a failure. The power diodes used in alternators are exceedingly robust devices and their reverse leakage at battery voltage is measured in nanoamps. Unlike generators (with brushes and commutators that carry output current), the alternator has no such weak-link. Alternators are inherently current limited. Normal operations . . . even starting an engine with jumpers with the alternator grunting the load of a fully discharge battery does no 'over tax' an alternator in any serious way. I've seen that admonition for making sure your battery is fully charged before firing up the engine with a new alternator . . and I'm mystified by it. These things are explained in more detail in The AeroElectric Connection. You can download a copy here http://www.aeroelectric.com/Book/AEC_R12A.pdf or acquire a paper-copy here http://tinyurl.com/cgr42l5 Your unexplained short term failure may be a one-of event. But as a general observation, today's battery products are as good as they ever have been. Persistent failures have an explanation that should and can be identified. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 29, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: What Causes Battery to Go Bad
At 09:11 AM 10/29/2016, you wrote: >Thanks All!!! > >This is very good information. My 87 year old >father and I have had this conversation numerous >times over the decades and I will share this email thread with him. > >BTW=85the most recent victim was a Saturn. I will suggest an experiment. . . Acquire a multimeter . . . nothing fancy. One of those $5 Harbor Freight things will work. Put it into the current measurement mode. Remove one wire from the Saturn's battery and put the multi- meter in the gap. I'll do the same on my wife's car . . . it was about 15 years ago that I made the discovery and my memory of exact value is fuzzy . . . but tomorrow. Right now I'm packing up our Cotton Candy concession into another 'classic'. My father willed his '87 GMC Sierra Classic 1500 to Dr. Dee . . . with only 37K miles on it. I've been honing my mechanics skills re-furbing the things that succumb to age and use. But it's very road-worthy and we're participating in a fund raiser for my grandchildren's grade school in Wichita this evening. Hmmm . . . the Sierra has TBI and some other 'electro whizzies . . . I'll check all the cars for parasitic parked loads and report back. If anyone else on the List is so inclined, it would be interesting to get some data on a variety of vehicles. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 29, 2016
Subject: What Causes Battery to Go Bad
Good idea Bob... I'm on a trip right now but will participate in this clinical study when I get home. I'll see if my dad will join in on the fun and contribute as well. I hope your skills at setting the digital clock have not deteriated... Bill Hunter On Oct 29, 2016 9:33 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 09:11 AM 10/29/2016, you wrote: > > Thanks All!!! > > This is very good information. My 87 year old father and I have had this > conversation numerous times over the decades and I will share this email > thread with him. > > BTWthe most recent victim was a Saturn. > > > I will suggest an experiment. . . > > Acquire a multimeter . . . nothing > fancy. One of those $5 Harbor Freight > things will work. > > Put it into the current measurement > mode. Remove one wire from the > Saturn's battery and put the multi- > meter in the gap. > > I'll do the same on my wife's car . . . > it was about 15 years ago that > I made the discovery and my memory > of exact value is fuzzy . . . > but tomorrow. > > Right now I'm packing up our Cotton > Candy concession into another 'classic'. > My father willed his '87 GMC Sierra > Classic 1500 to Dr. Dee . . . with > only 37K miles on it. > > I've been honing my mechanics skills > re-furbing the things that succumb to > age and use. But it's very road-worthy and > we're participating in a fund raiser for > my grandchildren's grade school in > Wichita this evening. > > Hmmm . . . the Sierra has TBI and > some other 'electro whizzies . . . > I'll check all the cars for parasitic > parked loads and report back. If > anyone else on the List is so inclined, > it would be interesting to get some > data on a variety of vehicles. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: What Causes Battery to Go Bad
From: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 29, 2016
Won't matter too much on an 87 but especially for newer vehicles I'd suggest putting the ammeter in the circuit before disconnecting the battery so that you don't lose momentary power with resultant loss of accumulated "learning" in the ecu as well as things like radio settings. I understand that it can even require a return to the dealer to re-instate radios that have anti-theft security features. Even better might be a 9 volt battery temporarily plugged into a cigarette lighter which should also keep the memories intact. Ken On 29/10/2016 10:26 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 09:11 AM 10/29/2016, you wrote: >> Thanks All!!! >> >> This is very good information. My 87 year old father and I have had >> this conversation numerous times over the decades and I will share >> this email thread with him. >> >> BTWthe most recent victim was a Saturn. > > I will suggest an experiment. . . > > Acquire a multimeter . . . nothing > fancy. One of those $5 Harbor Freight > things will work. > > Put it into the current measurement > mode. Remove one wire from the > Saturn's battery and put the multi- > meter in the gap. > > I'll do the same on my wife's car . . . > it was about 15 years ago that > I made the discovery and my memory > of exact value is fuzzy . . . > but tomorrow. > > Right now I'm packing up our Cotton > Candy concession into another 'classic'. > My father willed his '87 GMC Sierra > Classic 1500 to Dr. Dee . . . with > only 37K miles on it. > > I've been honing my mechanics skills > re-furbing the things that succumb to > age and use. But it's very road-worthy and > we're participating in a fund raiser for > my grandchildren's grade school in > Wichita this evening. > > Hmmm . . . the Sierra has TBI and > some other 'electro whizzies . . . > I'll check all the cars for parasitic > parked loads and report back. If > anyone else on the List is so inclined, > it would be interesting to get some > data on a variety of vehicles. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 29, 2016
From: ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net
Subject: Re: What Causes Battery to Go Bad
Hi Bob; Hi All; Further to the SLVA battery success stories: When we were living 7 months in Anchorage and 5 months in Costa Rica each year, we had a 1982 Nissan King Cab pickup that sat outdoors in Alaska's winter, Every April first we would arrive back in Alaska, shovel the snow away from the pickup, turn the switch, and it never failed to start up. The sealed lead acid battery never let us dawn, even though we abused it unmercifully. Cheers! Stu. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2016 3:21:26 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What Causes Battery to Go Bad My car battery died after 9 months. In the last 20 years I seem to have very bad luck with batteries in various vehicles. These vehicles are classic cars used rarely (I disconnect the negative terminal when not in use) and some are often used daily drivers (stock cars with stock electric systems). The 'classics' did not load the battery in the normal 'parked' condition. Disconnecting the battery in such vehicles for long term storage was seldom, if ever, a useful thing to do. I think the electric clock was the biggest load with very small energy requirements . Modern vehicles MAY have small battery demands while parked. I think my wife's Saturn has a battery load on the order of 0.02 amps when parked. This is greater than the normal and expected self-discharge current characteristic of flooded batteries. If her car is not driven for a long period of time, the battery will be discharged. Further, a battery stored in a discharged condition self-destructs. It seems back in the day "maintenance free" batteries seemed to last longer. Is there something different now a days? I don't think so. Modern cars may have some very small persistent loads even when parked . . . the older cars will not. Batteries that sit for long periods of time will benefit from use of a 'maintainer' . . . not a 'trickle charger' the maintainer simply holds a battery's terminal voltage just above that at which self-discharging takes place. A maintainer holds a nominally 12.9v battery up to about 13.2 to 13.5 volts. Not high enough to do any charging but higher than normal open circuit volts. Hence, the ac mains become a source of energy to offset self-discharging. I used to have a stable of laboratory batteries that were stored on a single maintainer all connected in parallel. Some of them were service-ready after more than ten years . A 'trickle charger' puts a small but constant charge into a battery . . . which can be greater than the self-discharge current . . . and is ultimately deleterious to a battery on long term storage. I still have a couple of Battery Tenders I keep attached to my battery inventory. There's a host of products out there. http://tinyurl.com/zzjhalk The Battery Tender and the Schumacher SEM1562 are used in my shop. Walmart stocks the Schumacher product for about $ 25. ================= Simply disconnecting the batteries does not prevent them from discharging while sitting. It merely slows down the rate of discharge [not having to supply power to those electrical circuits which run even with the ignition switch off] It's best to keep a "trickle" charger on batteries that sit, unused for long periods of time. Generally true . . . with additions. The lead-acid battery also has a self-discharge characteristic that is a function of dissolved oxygen in the electrolyte. Flooded batteries of bygone times would run down in 90-120 days just sitting unload. Maintenance free batteries were a step up for controlling self discharge with the sealed battery being the present king of long term storage. An SVLA battery should retain 70-80% of capacity after a year of storage as long as the temperatures are not really high. I would suggest that you have your alternator(s) tested for shorted diode(s) in the rectifier bridge. Then make sure that each battery is fully charged BEFORE you start each engine. That way, you don't over tax the alternator right after start up. I've never encountered such a failure. The power diodes used in alternators are exceedingly robust devices and their reverse leakage at battery voltage is measured in nanoamps. Unlike generators (with brushes and commutators that carry output current), the alternator has no such weak-link. Alternators are inherently current limited. Normal operations . . . even starting an engine with jumpers with the alternator grunting the load of a fully discharge battery does no 'over tax' an alternator in any serious way. I've seen that admonition for making sure your battery is fully charged before firing up the engine with a new alternator . . and I'm mystified by it. These things are explained in more detail in The AeroElectric Connection. You can download a copy here http://www.aeroelectric.com/Book/AEC_R12A.pdf or acquire a paper-copy here http://tinyurl.com/cgr42l5 Your unexplained short term failure may be a one-of event. But as a general observation, today's battery products are as good as they ever have been. Persistent failures have an explanation that should and can be identified. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: What Causes Battery to Go Bad
Date: Oct 29, 2016
Just some suggestions about auto battery failure. . . . >From a simplified view point, batteries usually fail because. . . 1. Being over-charged in the vehicle or on a charger or both. . 2. Being constantly under-charged in vehicle or charger or both. . 3. Bad environment; vibration, etc. My personal opinion is your problem is #2. Just disconnecting the negative lead is not enough for a lead-acid based ba ttery. It will self discharge thru a variety of "paths"; internally and ex ternally. Hooking up a small (low amperage) charger also leads mostly to a disaster a s it eventually goes to an over-voltage state, thus gassing the cells dry. A good solution is to connect a "Battery Maintainer" to the battery and lea ve it connected. If it is set to the correct float voltage, it will charge essentially to that voltage and then "sit" adding a little bit as is neede d. These units are cheap. Even Harbor Freight has models that on sale or under $10. However, many of the units may come out of the box not calibrated exactly c orrect for float voltage. The float voltage should be in the region of 13. 2 - 13.4 volts in my opinion. One can buy a fairly good DVM, digital volt meter, for under $20. I sugges t buying a Maintainer from a close by local store. Also pick up the DVM. Hook it up to one of your batteries that is "good" and let it run for a cou ple of days until it is stabilized and check the battery voltage; this will be the stabilized float voltage. If it is too high or low, box it up and return it for another unit. The factory QC in many cases is not very good at final V settings of these units. Personally, I take mine apart, carefully, locate the adjustment "pot", dril l a small hole for a tiny screwdriver in the case and reassemble it. And, carefully, adjust the voltage control pot over several days until I li ke the final float voltage....... Dave PS; be careful of using a small solar panel to maintain charge. Many "12 v olt" types can go to 18v or higher in bright sun. The panel must have a vo ltage control within it. Low amp units can be controlled simply with a Zen er type diode. . .. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- ----- Original Message ----- From: William Hunter To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 4:54 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: What Causes Battery to Go Bad My car battery died after 9 months. In the last 20 years I seem to have v ery bad luck with batteries in various vehicles. These vehicles are classic cars used rarely (I disconnect the negative terminal when not in use) and some are often used daily drivers (stock cars with stock electric systems). It seems back in the day "maintenance free" batteries seemed to last long er. Is there something different now a days? Bill Hunter --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 30, 2016
From: Jeff Page <jpx(at)qenesis.com>
Subject: Re: What Causes Battery to Go Bad
> I used > to have a stable of laboratory batteries that were > stored on a single maintainer all connected in parallel. > Some of them were service-ready after more than ten years. Beware putting multiple batteries in parallel on a single maintainer. I had a cell die in one battery. The maintainer was unable to hold the float voltage. After a month or two the other batteries had sat completely discharged for a while and none were serviceable. Now I use a separate maintainer for each. Perhaps a low voltage alarm would suffice instead. Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 30, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: What Causes Battery to Go Bad
> >Beware putting multiple batteries in parallel on a single maintainer. >I had a cell die in one battery. The maintainer was unable to hold >the float voltage. >After a month or two the other batteries had sat completely discharged >for a while >and none were serviceable. Now I use a separate maintainer for each. > >Perhaps a low voltage alarm would suffice instead. My maintainers have lights on the front that annunciate status of battery(ies). While a shorted cell in one battery would indeed upset the universe of batteries on storage, it's a very rare event in the SVLA world . . . occurring mostly in batteries that probably shouldn't be on the maintainer in the first place . . . capacity badly compromised. Active and obnoxious notification of low voltage would be helpful in this situation. A 5 cell battery's open terminal voltage drops to (12.8/6)*5 = 10.7 volts. The same battery's 'charge voltage' drops to (14.2/6)*5 = 11.8 volts which would indeed draw down the remaining batteries as they 'charged' the compromised battery. I think it prudent to know that all batteries in an array of 'maintained' batteries are worthy of being maintained . . . i.e. not less than 75% of nameplate capacity. A substantial drop in capacity precedes cell degradation which precedes mechanical compromise of insulators that produces the shorted cell. My instrument batteries were used as stand alone power for data acquisition equipment, portable power for hand tools and occasionally as cranking batteries for vehicles. They were periodically cap-checked (you don't want the DAS to go down in the middle of a flight test!). Keeping an eye on your maintainer(s) annunciator lights is a useful thing to do . . . and yes, separate maintainers is the ultimate firewall against suffering a similar inconvenience. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: BatteryMinder not recommended for use in aircraft
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Oct 31, 2016
I just got a new BatteryMinder because the old one couldn't push enough electrons for the new battery. Oh well. But the new BatteryMinder didn't come with the ring terminal harness. Just the big alligator clips. I figured that they were charging (pun intended) extra for the harness. But then I found out that they do not recommend using the charger on batteries in the plane. From their manual (emphasis theirs): 1. Attach output cord of charger to the battery clip(s) assembly (BCAA) (supplied). For aviation applications, we no longer advise use of the RTA on any batteries while the battery is located within a confined area, such as in an aircraft engine compartment. 2. Battery should be removed from aircraft or open to free flowing air to avoid possible build-up of harmful hydrogen gas in the event battery has a shorted cell(s) or charging source is incorrect or malfunctions. I can't imagine that people are actually going to remove their battery every time they want to hook up the BatteryMinder. In my case the battery is in the nose. With the nose gear door open and the upper access hatch open I've got a pretty good flow of air. But that hangar fire at KANE which is being attributed to a BatteryMinder does raise a doubt. A battery is a lot cheaper than a new plane. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461757#461757 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 31, 2016
Subject: Re: BatteryMinder not recommended for use in aircraft
get a little fan for $15 that pulls 15 watts 120 acv and rig it up so your ''enclosed space'' is ventilated. otherwise a tender is useless for me. bob noffs On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 5:19 AM, donjohnston <don@velocity-xl.com> wrote: > don@velocity-xl.com> > > I just got a new BatteryMinder because the old one couldn't push enough > electrons for the new battery. Oh well. > > But the new BatteryMinder didn't come with the ring terminal harness. > Just the big alligator clips. I figured that they were charging (pun > intended) extra for the harness. > > But then I found out that they do not recommend using the charger on > batteries in the plane. From their manual (emphasis theirs): > > 1. Attach output cord of charger to the battery clip(s) assembly > (BCAA) (supplied). For aviation applications, we no longer advise use of > the RTA on any batteries while the battery is located within a confined > area, such as in an aircraft engine compartment. > > 2. Battery should be removed from aircraft or open to free > flowing air to avoid possible build-up of harmful hydrogen gas in the > event battery has a shorted cell(s) or charging source is > incorrect or malfunctions. > > I can't imagine that people are actually going to remove their battery > every time they want to hook up the BatteryMinder. In my case the battery > is in the nose. With the nose gear door open and the upper access hatch > open I've got a pretty good flow of air. > > But that hangar fire at KANE which is being attributed to a BatteryMinder > does raise a doubt. A battery is a lot cheaper than a new plane. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461757#461757 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 31, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: CHT challenge . . .
At 01:45 AM 10/31/2016, you wrote: Hi Bob, I found your discussion on building your own sensors in AeroElectric Connection very informative, however, it raises a question: Can any CHT sensor be used with any CHT gauge as long as the temp ranges are the same for both devices? Theoretically possible but as a practical matter, maybe not. A thermocouple is a voltage versus temperature SOURCE. As long as the instrument reading the voltage draws ZERO current from the source, then that gage may be sued with any thermocouple of the right voltage/temperature curve. Most CHT couples are type K . . . but there ARE a few type J devices out there to. As a practical matter, you can parallel any number of electronic instrumentation systems onto a single thermocouple . . . electronic gages have a very high input impedance and do no 'pollute' the thermocouple's data. But ALL un-powered temperature displays place some demand on the thermocouple making it necessary to MATCH a gage with a thermocouple based on wire type (J,K,E,T) and resistance of the thermocouple lead-wire. I have installed a C90-12F on my Zenith CH750 project and want to hook up at least one CHT sensor until I can confirm nominal temps within the experimental cowl that is provided. And I don't want to spend hundreds of bucks if not necessary. A local acft used parts shop has a couple of used CHT gauges available at very reasonable prices but without sensors and wiring. Acft Spruce provides a sensor CP131 CHT Probe 18m, part number 10-01440. This sensor will fit under one of my selected cylinder spark plugs. Would such a sensor work properly with a used CHT gauge? The used gauge I have in mind reads to 600 F and has two leads which I assume connect to the appropriate two leads from the sensor. The Aircraft Spruce catalog speaks to the use of type E thermocouple wire on their spark plug gasket offering. Here are excerpts from the data tables on the three popular thermocouple types. Type E Emacs! Tyoe J Emacs! Type K Emacs! As you can see, type E has a lot more output that J and K. The tough nut is that any gage used with this particular produce must be MATCHED to the wire. The answer to your question is bounded by two points: (1) match gage to type of thermocouple wire and (2) finding an 18mm spark-plug gasket fitted wire appropriate to the gage. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 31, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: BatteryMinder not recommended for use in aircraft
At 05:19 AM 10/31/2016, you wrote: > >I just got a new BatteryMinder because the old one couldn't push >enough electrons for the new battery. Oh well. I'm mystified by this . . . the 'wall-wart' battery-minder is a SMALL battery charger . . . on the order of 1 amp or less. It takes a long time for it to CHARGE a fully discharged battery. Once charged, the device shifts to the maintainer mode whereupon it's only task is to OFFSET self discharge currents . . . which are measured in micro-amps. Do you still have the old Battery Minder? What model is/was it? > > >But the new BatteryMinder didn't come with the ring terminal >harness. Just the big alligator clips. I figured that they were >charging (pun intended) extra for the harness. > >But then I found out that they do not recommend using the charger on >batteries in the plane. From their manual (emphasis theirs): > >1. >Attach output cord of charger to the battery clip(s) >assembly (BCAA) (supplied). For aviation applications, we no >longer advise use of the RTA on any batteries while the battery is >located within a confined area, such as in an aircraft engine compartment. > >2. >Battery should be removed from aircraft or open to free >flowing air to avoid possible build-up of harmful hydrogen gas in >the event >battery has a shorted cell(s) or charging source is >incorrect or malfunctions. > >I can't imagine that people are actually going to remove their >battery every time they want to hook up the BatteryMinder. In my >case the battery is in the nose. With the nose gear door open and >the upper access hatch open I've got a pretty good flow of air. > >But that hangar fire at KANE which is being attributed to a >BatteryMinder does raise a doubt. A battery is a lot cheaper than a new plane. I REALLY like to see the fire investigation report. There are millions of battery-minder like products out there. I've not looked at the larger models but the wall-wart sized products are certainly UL approved Class 2 . . . meaning NO EXTERNALLY APPLIED STESS will cause this product to become a hazard to persons or property. On the battery side, the admonition about "charging batteries in a closed space" smells of worries that had some foundation in the flooded battery markets of a gazillion years ago. Batteries in an OBAM aircraft are likely to be SVLA/RG and not mounted in a box. Further, the abuse that has to be heaped on an SVLA/RG battery to trigger a catastrophic energy release is difficult to produce in the lab much less as an occurrence in service. Battery-Minder and Enersys had some kind of a 'falling out' about 15 years ago. Engineers I spoke with at Enersys couldn't enlighten me as to any facts and decisions based on physics. The notion of removing an SVLA/RG battery for any gentle charging/maintained activity for the sake of fire safety seems like overkill . . . but perhaps based on paranoia arising from some fire investigator's report on a hangar fire. I'd give $100 to read a copy of that report . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: CHT challenge . . .
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 31, 2016
So far as I know, a cht gauge must match the alloy combo (i.e., the letter type) of the TC. Printed temp scale is not relevant. Different alloy combos output different voltages at the same temp point. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461777#461777 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: BatteryMinder not recommended for use in aircraft
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Oct 31, 2016
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > > Do you still have the old Battery Minder? What model is/was it? > The old battery was a Gill G242S. The BatteryMinder was a 24041-AA-S1 24v battery Charger/Maintainer/Desulfator-Conditioner. I replaced the battery with a Gill 7243-14. The tech rep at Gill said that my old BatteryMinder may not be sufficient for the new battery. I contacted VDC and they said the 24041-AA-S1 was not recommended for the higher capacity battery and said that I should upgrade to the 244CEC1-AA-S3. nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > I REALLY like to see the fire investigation report. It is my understanding that the fire occurred recently. I have no idea how long it takes for one of those to be completed so I might be a while before the report is finished. One of the things that I noticed is that they reference "filler cap type batteries". I'm wondering if sealed batteries are not subject to these warnings. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461780#461780 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: BatteryMinder not recommended for use in aircraft
From: Lyle Peterson <lyleap(at)centurylink.net>
Date: Oct 31, 2016
The fire was on the 29th at about 12:20pm. A homebuilt and a Cessna 182 were destroyed. I received three pictures. One was the exterior of the hangar. It is still standing but the upper level is blackened. Of the homebuilt only the tail section remains as recognizable as part of an airplane. The rest is mostly ashes. It appeared to be a composite aircraft. There was no image that was clearly of the 182 The fire is being investigated. Most likely there will be no report on the news regarding the cause. Airport tenants and the management will most likely have the report when it is released. On 10/31/2016 4:33 PM, donjohnston wrote: > > > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: >> Do you still have the old Battery Minder? What model is/was it? >> > > > The old battery was a Gill G242S. The BatteryMinder was a 24041-AA-S1 24v battery Charger/Maintainer/Desulfator-Conditioner. > > I replaced the battery with a Gill 7243-14. The tech rep at Gill said that my old BatteryMinder may not be sufficient for the new battery. I contacted VDC and they said the 24041-AA-S1 was not recommended for the higher capacity battery and said that I should upgrade to the 244CEC1-AA-S3. > > > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: >> I REALLY like to see the fire investigation report. > > > It is my understanding that the fire occurred recently. I have no idea how long it takes for one of those to be completed so I might be a while before the report is finished. > > One of the things that I noticed is that they reference "filler cap type batteries". I'm wondering if sealed batteries are not subject to these warnings. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461780#461780 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 31, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: BatteryMinder not recommended for use in
aircraft At 05:06 PM 10/31/2016, you wrote: > > >The fire was on the 29th at about 12:20pm. A homebuilt and a Cessna >182 were destroyed. I received three pictures. One was the >exterior of the hangar. It is still standing but the upper level is >blackened. Of the homebuilt only the tail section remains as >recognizable as part of an airplane. The rest is mostly ashes. It >appeared to be a composite aircraft. There was no image that was >clearly of the 182 > >The fire is being investigated. Most likely there will be no report >on the news regarding the cause. Airport tenants and the management >will most likely have the report when it is released. Was a 'battery charger/maintainer' even mentioned as a possible participant in the fire? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: BatteryMinder not recommended for use in aircraft
From: Lyle Peterson <lyleap(at)centurylink.net>
Date: Oct 31, 2016
No mention at all of a possible cause. I will ask some EAA Chapter members what they know. It was two of them that first got the word out to chapter members. Lyle On 10/31/2016 6:25 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 05:06 PM 10/31/2016, you wrote: >> >> >> The fire was on the 29th at about 12:20pm. A homebuilt and a Cessna >> 182 were destroyed. I received three pictures. One was the exterior >> of the hangar. It is still standing but the upper level is >> blackened. Of the homebuilt only the tail section remains as >> recognizable as part of an airplane. The rest is mostly ashes. It >> appeared to be a composite aircraft. There was no image that was >> clearly of the 182 >> >> The fire is being investigated. Most likely there will be no report >> on the news regarding the cause. Airport tenants and the management >> will most likely have the report when it is released. > > Was a 'battery charger/maintainer' even mentioned > as a possible participant in the fire? > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 31, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: BatteryMinder not recommended for use in
aircraft At 04:33 PM 10/31/2016, you wrote: > > >nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > > > > Do you still have the old Battery Minder? What model is/was it? > > > > >The old battery was a Gill G242S. The BatteryMinder was a >24041-AA-S1 24v battery Charger/Maintainer/Desulfator-Conditioner. > >I replaced the battery with a Gill 7243-14. The tech rep at Gill >said that my old BatteryMinder may not be sufficient for the new >battery. I contacted VDC and they said the 24041-AA-S1 was not >recommended for the higher capacity battery and said that I should >upgrade to the 244CEC1-AA-S3. Hmmmmm . . . I've read/seen similar assertions as to suitability to task . . . all of which were mystifying. Indeed, if you're wanting to charge a 40 a.h. battery with a 0.75A wall-wart, it will indeed take a long time . . . but just as a 0.75 amp load would take days to discharge the battery, so too would a 0.75A charger take days to stuff the energy back in. But if one has no sense of urgency for demanding a fully charged battery, the time to charge should be irrelevant. Once the charger reaches the top-off cycle and drops to a maintenance mode, then energy demands on the maintainer are a tiny fraction of that available for charging. As I mentioned earlier, it's micro-amps in an RG battery. If you still have your old maintainer, it would be interesting to do a couple of cap-checks on your battery and use the two chargers to replenish them while recording the events on a data acquisition system . . . but that takes a lot of time to set up and run the experiment . . . so I guess we're not going to know . . . soon . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 01, 2016
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: PLEASE READ - Matronics Email List 2016 Fund Raiser
During November! Dear Listers, Each November I hold a PBS-like fund raiser to support the continued operation and upgrade of the Email List and Fourm Services at Matronics. It's solely through the Contributions of List members (you) that these Matronics Lists are possible. You have probably noticed that there are no banner ads or pop-up windows on any of the Matronics Lists or related web sites such as the Forums site http://forums.matronics.com , Wiki site http://wiki.matronics.com , or other related pages such as the List Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search , List Browse http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse , etc. This is because I believe in a List experience that is completely about the sport we all enjoy - namely Airplanes and not about annoying advertisements. During the month of November I will be sending out List messages every couple of days reminding everyone that the Fund Raiser is underway. I ask for your patience and understanding during the Fund Raiser and throughout these regular messages. The Fund Raiser is only financial support mechanism I have to pay all of the bills associated with running these lists. YOUR personal Contribution counts! This year we have a really HUGE and TERRIFIC line up of free gifts to go along with the various Contribution levels. In fact, there are over 24 different gifts to choose from! There's something for everyone, to be sure. Most all of these gifts have been provided by some of the vary members and vendors that you'll find on the Matronics Lists and they have been either donated or provided at substantially discounted rates. This year, these generous members include: Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore http://www.buildersbooks.com Bob Nuckolls of the AeroElectric Connection http://www.aeroelectric.com Corbin Glowacki of My Pilot Store http://www.mypilotstore.com George Race of Race Consulting http://www.mrrace.com/ Jon Croke of HomebuiltHELP http://www.homebuilthelp.com These are very generous guys and I encourage you to visit their respective web sites. Each one offers a unique and excellent aviation-related product line. I would like publicly to thank Andy, Bob, Corbin, George, and Jon their generous support of the Lists again this year!! Please make your List Contribution using any one of three secure methods including using a credit card, PayPal, or by personal check. All three methods afford you the opportunity to select one of this year's free gifts with a qualifying Contribution amount!! To make your Contribution, please visit the secure web site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution I would like to thank everyone in advance for their generous financial AND moral support over the years! Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator RV-4/RV-6/RV-8 Builder/Rebuilder/Pilot ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: CHT challenge . . .
From: Bill Bear <beartrax(at)mtaonline.net>
Date: Nov 01, 2016
Thanks, Ira, I got the same info from Bob N. in an email. Presently waiting on a reply from the gauge manufacture for data on the alloy combo for a Falcon gauge. Bill On Oct 31, 2016, at 12:23, rampil wrote: > > So far as I know, a cht gauge must match > the alloy combo (i.e., the letter type) of the > TC. Printed temp scale is not relevant. Different > alloy combos output different voltages at the > same temp point. > > -------- > Ira N224XS > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461777#461777 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
From: "Thermos" <dave(at)mightyrv.com>
Date: Nov 02, 2016
Bob, Reawakening this thread, you mentioned a few years ago a potential mod to the LR3C to eliminate "ghosting" when using LEDs as annunciatirs- "The 'problem' can be eliminated by snipping out the one-time-useful resistor. I think I'll suggest that B&C eliminate that resistor in future production and modify any regulators that come back for other reasons." Am I understanding this correctly as a solution, and if so, was this mod ever made by B&C? I purchased an LR3C this year and if it's the same as before, I may wait 'till it's out of warranty then do the mod myself. Thanks, Dave -------- Dave RV-7 fuselage Boston, MA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461883#461883 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
At 09:16 AM 11/2/2016, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Reawakening this thread, you mentioned a few years ago a potential >mod to the LR3C to eliminate "ghosting" when using LEDs as annunciatirs- > >"The 'problem' can be eliminated by snipping out the >one-time-useful resistor. I think I'll suggest that B&C eliminate >that resistor in future production and modify any regulators that >come back for other reasons." > >Am I understanding this correctly as a solution, and if so, was this >mod ever made by B&C? I purchased an LR3C this year and if it's the >same as before, I may wait 'till it's out of warranty then do the mod myself. The LV warning output from the LR3 is designed to drive INCANDESCENT lamps while offering a warning for loss of operating power to the LV warning system. This philosophy has served TC and OBAM aviation well for several decades. LEDS are the new kids on the block . . . and like lithium batteries, dynamic microphones, LED nav lights, etc . . . they are not form/fit/function drop-on replacements for their legacy ancestors. It's easy to make an LED emulate the incandescent lamp for purposes of using it to annunciate low volts on an LR3 installation. http://tinyurl.com/cgnwr5k But if you'd rather mod the regulator instead, that's certainly doable . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED . . . THE ORIGINAL REPLY GOT TRUNCATED. LET'S TRY AGAIN. At 09:16 AM 11/2/2016, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Reawakening this thread, you mentioned a few years ago a potential >mod to the LR3C to eliminate "ghosting" when using LEDs as annunciatirs- > >"The 'problem' can be eliminated by snipping out the >one-time-useful resistor. I think I'll suggest that B&C eliminate >that resistor in future production and modify any regulators that >come back for other reasons." > >Am I understanding this correctly as a solution, and if so, was this >mod ever made by B&C? I purchased an LR3C this year and if it's the >same as before, I may wait 'till it's out of warranty then do the mod myself. The LV warning output from the LR3 is designed to drive INCANDESCENT lamps while offering a warning for loss of operating power to the LV warning system. This philosophy has served TC and OBAM aviation well for several decades. LEDS are the new kids on the block . . . and like lithium batteries, dynamic microphones, LED nav lights, etc . . . they are not form/fit/function drop-on replacements for their legacy ancestors. It's easy to make an LED emulate the incandescent lamp for purposes of using it to annunciate low volts on an LR3 installation. http://tinyurl.com/cgnwr5k But if you'd rather mod the regulator instead, that's certainly doable . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Hourmeter / oil pressure switch
From: "micreb" <n616pm(at)gmail.com>
Date: Nov 02, 2016
Wow, this got frustrating... But finally success. Anyone else up against this just go to NAPA and get an Echlin Oil Pressure Switch PN OP6627. It's a higher pressure rating than some of the other generics, and labels exactly as Bobs 'Hourmeter/Oil P Warn' diagram.... Right down to the P,S,& I labeled fast on studs..... It's 1/4 NPT threads. Paul -------- I'd rather be flying than building but there's an end to the means here (I hope). Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461887#461887 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: LED Ghosting
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED Ghosting MAYBE THE THIRD TIME IS THE 'CHARM' . . . I RAN A CUT-N-PASTE THROUGH A VISIBLE TEXT ONLY FILTER JUST IN CASE SOME HIDDEN CHARACTER WAS CAUSING THE MESSAGE TO END EARLY . . . At 09:16 AM 11/2/2016, you wrote: Bob, Reawakening this thread, you mentioned a few years ago a potential mod to the LR3C to eliminate "ghosting" when using LEDs as annunciatirs- "The 'problem' can be eliminated by snipping out the one-time-useful resistor. I think I'll suggest that B&C eliminate that resistor in future production and modify any regulators that come back for other reasons." Am I understanding this correctly as a solution, and if so, was this mod ever made by B&C? I purchased an LR3C this year and if it's the same as before, I may wait 'till it's out of warranty then do the mod myself. The LV warning output from the LR3 is designed to drive INCANDESCENT lamps while offering a warning for loss of operating power to the LV warning system. This philosophy has served TC and OBAM aviation well for several decades. LEDS are the new kids on the block . . . and like lithium batteries, dynamic microphones, LED nav lights, etc . . . they are not form/fit/function drop-in replacements for their legacy ancestors. It's easy to make an LED emulate the incandescent lamp for purposes of using it to annunciate low volts on an LR3 installation. See: http://tinyurl.com/cgnwr5k But as you've noted modifying the regulator instead, is certainly doable . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 4 light wig-wag
From: "micreb" <n616pm(at)gmail.com>
Date: Nov 02, 2016
I replaced the wing tips on my Murphy Rebel and now have a landing and taxi light on each wing... Who needs runway lights, eh? Anyone have any ideas on wigwag for all 4 lights that would enhance the already attention getting 2 light system? All 4 are halogen. Not really interested in LEDs yet till the prices come down.... Paul -------- I'd rather be flying than building but there's an end to the means here (I hope). Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461888#461888 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 4 light wig-wag
At 11:30 AM 11/2/2016, you wrote: > >I replaced the wing tips on my Murphy Rebel and now have a landing >and taxi light on each wing... Who needs runway lights, eh? >Anyone have any ideas on wigwag for all 4 lights that would enhance >the already attention getting 2 light system? >All 4 are halogen. Not really interested in LEDs yet till the >prices come down.... probably no big advantage in 'doubling' the light output. The effectiveness of a wig-wag system has more to do with SPACING between the lamps than with intensity. The eye is a very logarithmic sensor device that delivers little new information to the brain due to 2x increase in intensity. On the other hand, visual acuity determines the angular displacement that must be exceeded before a pair of flashing lights is perceived as more than a single light source. Worked this issue MANY times in preparing accident analysis data for litigation of railroad grade crossing accidents. Lawyers were fond of latching onto visual differences between newest 12" roundels versus legacy 8" lenses. Perceived intensity of the lights is driven mostly by behaviors of the lens for shaping the beam than by the size of the lamp or its associated lens. The attention getting quality of a grade crossing signal (originally a single lamp on the end of a swinging arm . . . a wig wag) is the distance between the lamps. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Round Those interested in exploring this topic from the railroad perspective may download the grade crossing 'bible' at http://tinyurl.com/j3nveyx For our purposes, effectiveness of the wig-wag system is improved by mounting the lamps as far apart as practical on the wings. A larger 'stroke' distance translates into a greater range of perceptions. Our development wig-wag adds another feature that goes to range of perception. At great distance, the two lights visually merge and are no particularly attention getting. However, if you 'triple flash' each lamp during its respective on-cycle, then you exploit perception of flashing which occurs at greater range and perception of motion. http://tinyurl.com/bos5p5r As you approach the observer, perception of motion adds to perception of flashing. The short answer is, doubling up on the lamps is of little value. But mounting them further apart and/or flashing is a good thing to do. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 4 light wig-wag
At 11:30 AM 11/2/2016, you wrote: > >I replaced the wing tips on my Murphy Rebel and now have a landing >and taxi light on each wing... Who needs runway lights, eh? >Anyone have any ideas on wigwag for all 4 lights that would enhance >the already attention getting 2 light system? >All 4 are halogen. Not really interested in LEDs yet till the >prices come down.... probably no big advantage in 'doubling' the light output. The effectiveness of a wig-wag system has more to do with SPACING between the lamps than with intensity. The eye is a very logarithmic sensor device that delivers little new information to the brain due to 2x increase in intensity. On the other hand, visual acuity determines the angular displacement that must be exceeded before a pair of flashing lights is perceived as more than a single light source. Worked this issue MANY times in preparing accident analysis data for litigation of railroad grade crossing accidents. Lawyers were fond of latching onto visual differences between newest 12" roundels versus legacy 8" lenses. Perceived intensity of the lights is driven mostly by behaviors of the lens for shaping the beam than by the size of the lamp or its associated lens. The attention getting quality of a grade crossing signal (originally a single lamp on the end of a swinging arm . . . a wig wag) is the distance between the lamps. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Round Those interested in exploring this topic from the railroad perspective may download the grade crossing 'bible' at http://tinyurl.com/j3nveyx For our purposes, effectiveness of the wig-wag system is improved by mounting the lamps as far apart as practical on the wings. A larger 'stroke' distance translates into a greater range of perceptions. Our development wig-wag adds another feature that goes to range of perception. At great distance, the two lights visually merge and are not particularly attention getting. However, if you 'triple flash' each lamp during its respective on-cycle, then you exploit perception of flashing which occurs at greater range and perception of motion. http://tinyurl.com/bos5p5r As you approach the observer, perception of motion adds to perception of flashing. The short answer is, doubling up on the lamps is of little value. But mounting them further apart and/or flashing is a good thing to do. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 4 light wig-wag
probably no big advantage in 'doubling' the light output. The effectiveness of a wig-wag system has more to do with SPACING between the lamps than with intensity. The eye is a very logarithmic sensor device that delivers little new information to the brain due to 2x increase in intensity. On the other hand, visual acuity determines the angular displacement that must be exceeded before a pair of flashing lights is perceived as more than a single light source. Worked this issue MANY times in preparing accident analysis data for litigation of railroad grade crossing accidents. Lawyers were fond of latching onto visual differences between newest 12" roundels versus legacy 8" lenses. Perceived intensity of the lights is driven mostly by behaviors of the lens for shaping the beam than by the size of the lamp or its associated lens. The attention getting quality of a grade crossing signal (originally a single lamp on the end of a swinging arm . . . a wig wag) is the distance between the lamps. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Round Those interested in exploring this topic from the railroad perspective may download the grade crossing 'bible' at http://tinyurl.com/j3nveyx For our purposes, effectiveness of the wig-wag system is improved by mounting the lamps as far apart as practical on the wings. A larger 'stroke' distance translates into a greater range of perceptions. Our development wig-wag adds another feature that goes to range of perception. At great distance, the two lights visually merge and are not particularly attention getting. However, if you 'triple flash' each lamp during its respective on-cycle, then you exploit perception of flashing which occurs at greater range and perception of motion. http://tinyurl.com/bos5p5r As you approach the observer, perception of motion adds to perception of flashing. The short answer is, doubling up on the lamps is of little value. But mounting them further apart and/or flashing is a good thing to do. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 4 light wig-wag
For some reason, my replies to the List have been getting truncated. I can seed the same email to my personal account with no adverse effects but files to the List get clipped. The last paragraphs of my abbreviated posting are as follows: Those interested in exploring this topic from the railroad perspective may download the grade crossing 'bible' at http://tinyurl.com/j3nveyx For our purposes, effectiveness of the wig-wag system is improved by mounting the lamps as far apart as practical on the wings. A larger 'stroke' distance translates into a greater range of perceptions. Our development wig-wag adds another feature that goes to range of perception. At great distance, the two lights visually merge and are not particularly attention getting. However, if you 'triple flash' each lamp during its respective on-cycle, then you exploit perception of flashing which occurs at greater range and perception of motion. http://tinyurl.com/bos5p5r As you approach the observer, perception of motion adds to perception of flashing. The short answer is, doubling up on the lamps is of little value. But mounting them further apart and/or flashing is a good thing to do. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2016
From: Buckaroo Banzai <ornerycuss2001(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: 4 light wig-wag
I saw 4 responses and they all ended the same way. It looked like a complete response to me. -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 11/2/16, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 4 light wig-wag To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Date: Wednesday, November 2, 2016, 12:44 PM For some reason, my replies to the List have been getting truncated. I can seed the same email to my personal account with no adverse effects but files to the List get clipped. The last paragraphs of my abbreviated posting are as follows: Those interested in exploring this topic from the railroad perspective may download the grade crossing 'bible' at http://tinyurl.com/j3nveyx For our purposes, effectiveness of the wig-wag system is improved by mounting the lamps as far apart as practical on the wings. A larger 'stroke' distance translates into a greater range of perceptions. Our development wig-wag adds another feature that goes to range of perception. At great distance, the two lights visually merge and are not particularly attention getting. However, if you 'triple flash' each lamp during its respective on-cycle, then you exploit perception of flashing which occurs at greater range and perception of motion. http://tinyurl.com/bos5p5r As you approach the observer, perception of motion adds to perception of flashing. The short answer is, doubling up on the lamps is of little value. But mounting them further apart and/or flashing is a good thing to do. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 02, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 4 light wig-wag
At 04:24 PM 11/2/2016, you wrote: > > >I saw 4 responses and they all ended the same way. It looked like a >complete response to me. Oh good . . . thank you. I checked the forum through the browser and confirmed your observation. Pleased to know it's MY problem and not somebody else's! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 4 light wig-wag
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Nov 03, 2016
[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]The short answer is, doubling up on the lamps is of little value. But mounting them further apart and/or flashing is a good thing to do. Bob . . . [quote][b] > [b] Yep. When I was looking at landing lights in my 182RG, I was thinking about wig-wagging the landing and taxi light (about 1' apart). I was told that flashing them when they are that close to each other would look like one light on continuously. I found a document which had a table that had the distance from the viewer and how far apart the lights should be. Of course I can't find it now. :( Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461908#461908 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 2016
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Please Make A Contribution To Support Your Lists
Dear Listers, There is no advertising income to support the Matronics Email Lists and Forums. The operation is supported 100% by your personal Contributions during the November Fund Raiser. Please make your Contribution today to support the continued operation and upgrade of these services. You can pick up a really nice gift for making your Contribution too! You may use a Credit Card or Paypal at the Matronics Contribution Site here: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or, you can send a personal check to the following address: Matronics / Matt Dralle 581 Jeannie Way Livermore, CA 94550 Thank you in advance for your generous support! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 4 light wig-wag
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Nov 04, 2016
I supply Wig-Wags for four-light systems, but usually where (for example) two 75W lamps on each wing. The problem is that two lamps in parallel on each wing are half the cold resistance, so a surge suppressor has to be used on each lamp. But I also supply Wig-Wags for single light Europas and other single front- lighted systems. This is done by powering only one lamp while doubling the frequency. When I first tried this, I doubled it would work because of warm-up and cool-down delays but it seems to work quite well. The FDA has no guidelines for this. One thing should be mentioned regarding Wig-Wags...They are the very best protection against birdstrikes (a study has determined). Regarding LEDs...use them now! If you don't want to spend the money with aviation suppliers, use the auto and off-road vendors. There are plenty of lower cost suppliers. and plenty of plug-and-play units. As for wig-wagging lamp that are very close together, it is hard to do, but some locomotives use one lamp and just swing it to and fro. Seems to work. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=462008#462008 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Bear <beartrax(at)mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: CHT challenge . . .
Date: Nov 04, 2016
Thanks, Bob, Your discussion cleared up my concern - very helpful. Bill On Oct 31, 2016, at 9:42, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 01:45 AM 10/31/2016, you wrote: > Hi Bob, > > I found your discussion on building your own sensors > in AeroElectric Connection very informative, however, > it raises a question: Can any CHT sensor be used with > any CHT gauge as long as the temp ranges are the same > for both devices? > > Theoretically possible but as a practical > matter, maybe not. A thermocouple is a > voltage versus temperature SOURCE. As long > as the instrument reading the voltage draws > ZERO current from the source, then that gage > may be sued with any thermocouple of the > right voltage/temperature curve. Most CHT > couples are type K . . . but there ARE a few > type J devices out there to. > > As a practical matter, you can parallel any > number of electronic instrumentation systems > onto a single thermocouple . . . electronic > gages have a very high input impedance and do > no 'pollute' the thermocouple's data. > > But ALL un-powered temperature displays > place some demand on the thermocouple > making it necessary to MATCH a gage with > a thermocouple based on wire type (J,K,E,T) > and resistance of the thermocouple lead-wire. > > I have installed a C90-12F on my Zenith CH750 project and want to hook up at least one CHT sensor until I can confirm nominal temps within the experimental cowl that is provided. And I don=92t want to spend hundreds of bucks if not necessary. > > A local acft used parts shop has a couple of used CHT gauges available at very reasonable prices but without sensors and wiring. > > Acft Spruce provides a sensor CP131 CHT Probe 18m, part number 10-01440. This sensor will fit under one of my selected cylinder spark plugs. > > Would such a sensor work properly with a used CHT gauge? The used gauge I have in mind reads to 600 F and has two leads which I assume connect to the appropriate two leads from the sensor. > > The Aircraft Spruce catalog speaks to the use of type E > thermocouple wire on their spark plug gasket offering. > Here are excerpts from the data tables on the three popular > thermocouple types. > > > Type E > > > > Tyoe J > > > > Type K > > > > As you can see, type E has a lot more output > that J and K. The tough nut is that any gage > used with this particular produce must be > MATCHED to the wire. > > The answer to your question is bounded by two > points: (1) match gage to type of thermocouple > wire and (2) finding an 18mm spark-plug gasket > fitted wire appropriate to the gage. > > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Bear <beartrax(at)mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: CHT challenge . . .
Date: Nov 04, 2016
Thanks, Bob, Your discussion cleared up my concern - very helpful. Bill On Oct 31, 2016, at 9:42, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 01:45 AM 10/31/2016, you wrote: > Hi Bob, > > I found your discussion on building your own sensors > in AeroElectric Connection very informative, however, > it raises a question: Can any CHT sensor be used with > any CHT gauge as long as the temp ranges are the same > for both devices? > > Theoretically possible but as a practical > matter, maybe not. A thermocouple is a > voltage versus temperature SOURCE. As long > as the instrument reading the voltage draws > ZERO current from the source, then that gage > may be sued with any thermocouple of the > right voltage/temperature curve. Most CHT > couples are type K . . . but there ARE a few > type J devices out there to. > > As a practical matter, you can parallel any > number of electronic instrumentation systems > onto a single thermocouple . . . electronic > gages have a very high input impedance and do > no 'pollute' the thermocouple's data. > > But ALL un-powered temperature displays > place some demand on the thermocouple > making it necessary to MATCH a gage with > a thermocouple based on wire type (J,K,E,T) > and resistance of the thermocouple lead-wire. > > I have installed a C90-12F on my Zenith CH750 project and want to hook up at least one CHT sensor until I can confirm nominal temps within the experimental cowl that is provided. And I don=92t want to spend hundreds of bucks if not necessary. > > A local acft used parts shop has a couple of used CHT gauges available at very reasonable prices but without sensors and wiring. > > Acft Spruce provides a sensor CP131 CHT Probe 18m, part number 10-01440. This sensor will fit under one of my selected cylinder spark plugs. > > Would such a sensor work properly with a used CHT gauge? The used gauge I have in mind reads to 600 F and has two leads which I assume connect to the appropriate two leads from the sensor. > > The Aircraft Spruce catalog speaks to the use of type E > thermocouple wire on their spark plug gasket offering. > Here are excerpts from the data tables on the three popular > thermocouple types. > > > Type E > > > > Tyoe J > > > > Type K > > > > As you can see, type E has a lot more output > that J and K. The tough nut is that any gage > used with this particular produce must be > MATCHED to the wire. > > The answer to your question is bounded by two > points: (1) match gage to type of thermocouple > wire and (2) finding an 18mm spark-plug gasket > fitted wire appropriate to the gage. > > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 05, 2016
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Coming Soon - The List of Contributors - Please Make
A Contribution Today! Each year at the end of the List Fund Raiser, I post a message acknowledging everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists. Its my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation for the Lists. Please take a moment and assure that your name is on that List of Contributors (LOC)! As a number of members have pointed out over the years, the List seems at least as valuable a building / entertainment tool as your typical magazine subscription! Assure that your name is on this year's LOC! Show others that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is fast and easy using your Credit card or Paypal on the Secure Web Site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus far in this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps these Lists going and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment about how the Lists have helped you! Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Soldered lap splice has more resistance?
From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net>
Date: Nov 05, 2016
Not exactly off-topic, but the question arises from an automotive application. I have an intermittent START fault that doesn't show up on the dealer computer (3 different dealers). In their investigation, they found some rodent damage to wiring that powers the in-tank fuel pump in a VW Jetta TDI. The dealer wanted $756 to fix it I declined. I retrieved my car, cut out the damage and performed the typical lap splice to the 4 damaged wires, that Bob N. recommends. Specifically, mechanically binding the two lapped wire ends with 2 strands of the conductor, filling the bundle with solder, and covering with heat shrink. It didn't fix the starting fault, but the pump runs fine. When talking to the dealer again about this, and that I repaired the wiring damage as described, he claimed that soldering the wires together as described would add more resistance to the circuit and could start a fire. I coughed, and sputtered, as my BS meter pegged and exploded. He said only the VW butt splice method was acceptable. I asked for more details and was told that the VW method uses Crimp and Solder Sealed Butt connectors. I asked if he heard the word "solder" in there. That ended our discussion. So I think I know the answer to my question, but would like the group's verification. Thanks, JOHN Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=462096#462096 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Soldered lap splice has more resistance?
From: Lyle Peterson <lyleap(at)centurylink.net>
Date: Nov 05, 2016
Just another ploy to get more money from the uninformed. There is simply too much of this going on but it has been going on for a long, long time. That $756 sounds like a flat rate book figure. It includes removing all the seats, the windshield and the left front wheel. :) An experienced auto electrician will make a ton of money doing that repair all day long. This example is why buyers must do their research. Research the dealer and research the contemplated repair. Then do it yourself. Lyle On 11/5/2016 4:51 PM, jonlaury wrote: > > Not exactly off-topic, but the question arises from an automotive application. > > I have an intermittent START fault that doesn't show up on the dealer computer (3 different dealers). In their investigation, they found some rodent damage to wiring that powers the in-tank fuel pump in a VW Jetta TDI. The dealer wanted $756 to fix it > I declined. > > I retrieved my car, cut out the damage and performed the typical lap splice to the 4 damaged wires, that Bob N. recommends. Specifically, mechanically binding the two lapped wire ends with 2 strands of the conductor, filling the bundle with solder, and covering with heat shrink. It didn't fix the starting fault, but the pump runs fine. > > When talking to the dealer again about this, and that I repaired the wiring damage as described, he claimed that soldering the wires together as described would add more resistance to the circuit and could start a fire. I coughed, and sputtered, as my BS meter pegged and exploded. > > He said only the VW butt splice method was acceptable. I asked for more details and was told that the VW method uses Crimp and Solder Sealed Butt connectors. I asked if he heard the word "solder" in there. That ended our discussion. > > So I think I know the answer to my question, but would like the group's verification. > > Thanks, > JOHN > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=462096#462096 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com>
Date: Nov 06, 2016
Subject: Re: Soldered lap splice has more resistance?
If solder had a high resistance, someone would invent a better one that didn't. The conductivity of 60/40 solder is (I read) 153 nanoohm metres. Pure copper is 17 nanoohm metres. This suggests that the very very thin layer of solder that separates the wires in a soldered lap-joint has the same resistance as a layer of copper 9 times as thick. 9 times very vey thin is still very very thin, and negligible compared to the length of the wire itself. I don't believe there's any reason to think the wire-solder interfaces will have any greater resistance than the various solid metal to metal interfaces in a correctly made crimp. > On Nov 5, 2016, at 6:13 PM, Lyle Peterson wrote: > > > Just another ploy to get more money from the uninformed. There is simply too much of this going on but it has been going on for a long, long time. That $756 sounds like a flat rate book figure. It includes removing all the seats, the windshield and the left front wheel. :) An experienced auto electrician will make a ton of money doing that repair all day long. > > This example is why buyers must do their research. Research the dealer and research the contemplated repair. Then do it yourself. > > Lyle > > >> On 11/5/2016 4:51 PM, jonlaury wrote: >> >> Not exactly off-topic, but the question arises from an automotive application. >> >> I have an intermittent START fault that doesn't show up on the dealer computer (3 different dealers). In their investigation, they found some rodent damage to wiring that powers the in-tank fuel pump in a VW Jetta TDI. The dealer wanted $756 to fix it >> I declined. >> >> I retrieved my car, cut out the damage and performed the typical lap splice to the 4 damaged wires, that Bob N. recommends. Specifically, mechanically binding the two lapped wire ends with 2 strands of the conductor, filling the bundle with solder, and covering with heat shrink. It didn't fix the starting fault, but the pump runs fine. >> >> When talking to the dealer again about this, and that I repaired the wiring damage as described, he claimed that soldering the wires together as described would add more resistance to the circuit and could start a fire. I coughed, and sputtered, as my BS meter pegged and exploded. >> >> He said only the VW butt splice method was acceptable. I asked for more details and was told that the VW method uses Crimp and Solder Sealed Butt connectors. I asked if he heard the word "solder" in there. That ended our discussion. >> >> So I think I know the answer to my question, but would like the group's verification. >> >> Thanks, >> JOHN >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=462096#462096 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Soldered lap splice has more resistance?
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: Nov 06, 2016
I think you are dealing with a language issue. You are speaking engineering, and the dealership is speaking income. My advise is to run (away)! (Sent from the Giza plateau where I am field testing my aviation apps ;) ) -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=462107#462107 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Soldered lap splice has more resistance?
From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net>
Date: Nov 06, 2016
Thank you all. This battle with VW is far from over and I'm sure they are going to try to hang their incompetent cap on my repair. For fun, I computed the resistance values of my two 1/2" splices from Alec's conductivity specs... total resistance added to the circuit is like 3.5 x 10 to -8, or about 1 billionth of an Ohm. My dog lying on the seat above the splice contributes a greater delta T to the wire than does the 'resistance' of the solder. [Laughing] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=462112#462112 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Soldered lap splice has more resistance?
At 01:53 PM 11/6/2016, you wrote: > >Thank you all. > >This battle with VW is far from over and I'm sure they are going to >try to hang their incompetent cap on my repair. For fun, I computed >the resistance values of my two 1/2" splices from Alec's >conductivity specs... total resistance added to the circuit is like >3.5 x 10 to -8, or about 1 billionth of an Ohm. > >My dog lying on the seat above the splice contributes a greater >delta T to the wire than does the 'resistance' of the solder. [Laughing] > A similar issue arose with a client a few years back who called to ask about 'heat sink grease' to put under a transistor being replaced. He didn't have any 'legacy' products purported to offer exceptional thermal conductivity but needed to expedite the repair. I suggested E6000 . . . just glue the puppy down. He was worried about the relatively low conductivity . . . I reminded him that the two mating surfaces were nearly flat . . . i.e. the gaps to be filled were probably under .001 inches. The conductivity of air (no grease at all) was a whole lot higher than just about anything else he might choose. Even tho the non-traditional filler had 'unimpressive' numbers, they were a whole lot better than air. Further, because the gaps were so thin, the difference between E6000 and the best money could buy was probably impossible to measure. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Soldered lap splice has more resistance? (CORRECTION)
At 01:53 PM 11/6/2016, you wrote: > >Thank you all. > >This battle with VW is far from over and I'm sure they are going to >try to hang their incompetent cap on my repair. For fun, I computed >the resistance values of my two 1/2" splices from Alec's >conductivity specs... total resistance added to the circuit is like >3.5 x 10 to -8, or about 1 billionth of an Ohm. > >My dog lying on the seat above the splice contributes a greater >delta T to the wire than does the 'resistance' of the solder. [Laughing] A similar issue arose with a client a few years back who called to ask about 'heat sink grease' to put under a transistor being replaced. He didn't have any 'legacy' products purported to offer exceptional thermal conductivity but needed to expedite the repair. I suggested E6000 . . . just glue the puppy down. He was worried about the relatively low conductivity . . . I reminded him that the two mating surfaces were nearly flat . . . i.e. the gaps to be filled were probably under .001 inches. The conductivity of air (no grease at all) is a whole lot LOWER than just about anything else he might choose. Even tho the non-traditional filler had 'unimpressive' numbers, they were a whole lot better than air. Further, because the gap was so thin, the difference between E6000 and the best money could buy was probably impossible to measure. A suggestion . . . if the discussion with this particular dealer continues, show him a copy of the solder-sleeve catalog page/specs. If it's good enough for a military airplane, it probably suffices for a VW. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Email issue
From: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>
Date: Nov 07, 2016
The last few emails from Mr. Nuckolls have come through with what I assume is HTML code, but the actual text of his message is missing. Any information regarding the cause and/or solution to this issue will be appreciated. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) On 11/07/2016 07:03 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >

      > 

      >
      > 
> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Com transmit blanking out VOR CDI
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Nov 07, 2016
I've been chasing an issue where whenever I transmit on either com radio, I lose the CDI needle. This only happens on VOR's, not localizers. Specifics: Composite aircraft with foil com antennas in the vertical surfaces and foil nav antennas in the bottom of the main wings. The antennas are based on Jim Weir's antenna designs (RST Engineering). The com and nav radio's are Val Avionics 2KR models. Absolutely no known problems with com transmission or reception. Never had any complaints from ATC about weak transmissions. Localizer performance is fine. Rock solid needles, transmitting on the com radio has no effect on the localizer. With VOR's, the needle doesn't seem to be as steady. A little... wobbly. Tried numerous VOR's and transmitting always knocks out the needle. Instrumentation is Grand Rapids HXr EFIS. The CDI is represented in the EFIS. There is no separate, standalone, traditional CDI. This occurs whether I transmit on Com 1 or Com 2. I only have a single Nav radio and I have tried this with both nav antennas. Val Avionics initially said it was the com antenna "blanking" out the VOR signal. But after hearing that I had no problems with the com performance, they said it was the nav antenna. [Rolling Eyes] I swapped email with Jim Weir and he basically said it's not the antennas. Local avionics shop isn't sure how to proceed other than to suggest trying a traditional antenna. Wondering if anyone else has run into this and what the solution was. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=462124#462124 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Email issue
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Nov 07, 2016
I've experienced the same issue. Only Bob's posts are affected, only in the last few days, and it doesn't matter whether I read the email on an iPad or on a PC. I'm subscribed to receive an email echo of each individual post. Eric > On Nov 7, 2016, at 5:57 AM, rayj wrote: > The last few emails from Mr. Nuckolls have come through with what I assume is HTML code, but the actual text of his message is missing. Any information regarding the cause and/or solution to this issue will be appreciated. > > Raymond Julian > >> On 11/07/2016 07:03 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>

      >> 

      >> 
      >> 
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 2016
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Please Make A Contribution To Support Your Lists
Dear Listers, There is no advertising income to support the Matronics Email Lists and Forums. The operation is supported 100% by your personal Contributions during the November Fund Raiser. Please make your Contribution today to support the continued operation and upgrade of these services. You can pick up a really nice gift for making your Contribution too! You may use a Credit Card or Paypal at the Matronics Contribution Site here: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or, you can send a personal check to the following address: Matronics / Matt Dralle 581 Jeannie Way Livermore, CA 94550 Thank you in advance for your generous support! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Email issue
From: Lyle Peterson <lyleap(at)centurylink.net>
Date: Nov 07, 2016
I have the same issue and it is disappointing. I can't learn anything from Bob when his emails aren't getting through. It is only Bob's emails that are affected. I read them only on a PC. On 11/7/2016 10:17 AM, Eric Page wrote: > > I've experienced the same issue. Only Bob's posts are affected, only in the last few days, and it doesn't matter whether I read the email on an iPad or on a PC. I'm subscribed to receive an email echo of each individual post. > > Eric > > >> On Nov 7, 2016, at 5:57 AM, rayj wrote: >> The last few emails from Mr. Nuckolls have come through with what I assume is HTML code, but the actual text of his message is missing. Any information regarding the cause and/or solution to this issue will be appreciated. >> >> Raymond Julian >> >>> On 11/07/2016 07:03 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>>

      >>> 

      >>>
      >>> 
> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Nov 07, 2016
Subject: Re: Email issue
I've seen the same problem with at least one other poster's email, but obviously not everyone's. When I saw the 2nd person with the same issue, I just figured it was a 'system' problem somewhere in the chain. On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 1:43 PM, Lyle Peterson wrote: > lyleap(at)centurylink.net> > > I have the same issue and it is disappointing. I can't learn anything > from Bob when his emails aren't getting through. It is only Bob's emails > that are affected. I read them only on a PC. > > > On 11/7/2016 10:17 AM, Eric Page wrote: > >> >> I've experienced the same issue. Only Bob's posts are affected, only in >> the last few days, and it doesn't matter whether I read the email on an >> iPad or on a PC. I'm subscribed to receive an email echo of each >> individual post. >> >> Eric >> >> >> On Nov 7, 2016, at 5:57 AM, rayj wrote: >>> The last few emails from Mr. Nuckolls have come through with what I >>> assume is HTML code, but the actual text of his message is missing. Any >>> information regarding the cause and/or solution to this issue will be >>> appreciated. >>> >>> Raymond Julian >>> >>> On 11/07/2016 07:03 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>>>

      >>>> 

      >>>>
      >>>> 
>>>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 2016
From: Jim Baker <jimbaker(at)npacc.net>
Subject: Re: Email issue
I would encourage all who send emails to the list to forego using HTML or RICH TEXT. I know if I send a RICH TEXT message, the Matronics mail host can't handle it. Jim Baker 405 426 5377 -----Original Message----- From: Lyle Peterson <lyleap(at)centurylink.net> Sent: Mon, 07 Nov 2016 14:43 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Email issue I have the same issue and it is disappointing. I can't learn anything from Bob when his emails aren't getting through. It is only Bob's emails that are affected. I read them only on a PC. On 11/7/2016 10:17 AM, Eric Page wrote: > > I've experienced the same issue. Only Bob's posts are affected, only in the last few days, and it doesn't matter whether I read the email on an iPad or on a PC. I'm subscribed to receive an email echo of each individual post. > > Eric > > >> On Nov 7, 2016, at 5:57 AM, rayj wrote: >> The last few emails from Mr. Nuckolls have come through with what I assume is HTML code, but the actual text of his message is missing. Any information regarding the cause and/or solution to this issue will be appreciated. >> >> Raymond Julian >> >>> On 11/07/2016 07:03 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>>

      >>> 

      >>>
      >>> 
> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 2016
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Email issue
I think this is my fault, I tweaked a filter last week that might have caused problems for messages that were not of the plain-text variety. Things should be back to normal now. Do however, configure your email client to send only plain-text messages when posting to the Lists... Thank you, Matt Dralle List Admin. At 01:09 PM 11/7/2016 Monday, you wrote: > >I would encourage all who send emails to the list to forego using HTML or RICH TEXT. I know if I send a RICH TEXT message, the Matronics mail host can't handle it. > >Jim Baker >405 426 5377 > >-----Original Message----- >From: Lyle Peterson <lyleap(at)centurylink.net> >To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >Sent: Mon, 07 Nov 2016 14:43 >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Email issue > > >I have the same issue and it is disappointing. I can't learn anything >from Bob when his emails aren't getting through. It is only Bob's >emails that are affected. I read them only on a PC. > > >On 11/7/2016 10:17 AM, Eric Page wrote: >> >> I've experienced the same issue. Only Bob's posts are affected, only in the last few days, and it doesn't matter whether I read the email on an iPad or on a PC. I'm subscribed to receive an email echo of each individual post. >> >> Eric >> >> >>> On Nov 7, 2016, at 5:57 AM, rayj wrote: >>> The last few emails from Mr. Nuckolls have come through with what I assume is HTML code, but the actual text of his message is missing. Any information regarding the cause and/or solution to this issue will be appreciated. >>> >>> Raymond Julian >>> >>>> On 11/07/2016 07:03 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>>>

      >>>> 

      >>>>
      >>>> 
>> >> >> >> >> > > Matt G Dralle | Matronics | 581 Jeannie Way | Livermore | CA | 94550 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: Nov 07, 2016
Subject: inline fuse holder
What's the best way to put an ATC fuse inline? Should I rely on a prefabricated fuse holder of unknown quality, or is there a way I can fab one myself? Ken ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: inline fuse holder
At 06:41 PM 11/7/2016, you wrote: >What's the best way to put an ATC fuse inline? Should I rely on a >prefabricated fuse holder of unknown quality, or is there a way I >can fab one myself? The free hanging devices from the car parts store are fine. Emacs! There are some pictures of an option for rigidly mounting this style of fuesholder at http://tinyurl.com/7sguf9t . . . but they're so light, you might consider just tying them into the wire bundle. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mark Tomich <mstomich(at)gmail.com>
Date: Nov 08, 2016
Subject: Re: inline fuse holder
I've tucked one of these into my car's fuse box. I've had it for 4 years, and it finally blew the fuse when my wife plugged a vacuum cleaner into the attached inverter... Works perfectly. =F0=9F=98=89 On Mon, Nov 7, 2016, 20:50 Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 06:41 PM 11/7/2016, you wrote: > > What's the best way to put an ATC fuse inline? Should I rely on a > prefabricated fuse holder of unknown quality, or is there a way I can fab > one myself? > > > The free hanging devices from the car parts store > are fine. > > [image: Emacs!] > > There are some pictures of an option for > rigidly mounting this style of fuesholder > at > > http://tinyurl.com/7sguf9t > > . . . but they're so light, you might > consider just tying them into the wire > bundle. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Email issue
From: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net>
Date: Nov 09, 2016
Matt after your posting I've seen another garbled mails can you please recheck. Thanks Werner See below mails showing that issue AeroElectric-List: inline fuse holder by Ken Ryan RE: RV10-List: Caulk around windows? by Lynn Walters / Neal Trombley / Philip Perry On 07.11.2016 22:46, Matt Dralle wrote: > > I think this is my fault, I tweaked a filter last week that might have caused problems for messages that were not of the plain-text variety. Things should be back to normal now. > > Do however, configure your email client to send only plain-text messages when posting to the Lists... > > Thank you, > > Matt Dralle > List Admin. > > > At 01:09 PM 11/7/2016 Monday, you wrote: >> >> I would encourage all who send emails to the list to forego using HTML or RICH TEXT. I know if I send a RICH TEXT message, the Matronics mail host can't handle it. >> >> Jim Baker >> 405 426 5377 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Lyle Peterson <lyleap(at)centurylink.net> >> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >> Sent: Mon, 07 Nov 2016 14:43 >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Email issue >> >> >> I have the same issue and it is disappointing. I can't learn anything > >from Bob when his emails aren't getting through. It is only Bob's >> emails that are affected. I read them only on a PC. >> >> >> On 11/7/2016 10:17 AM, Eric Page wrote: >>> >>> I've experienced the same issue. Only Bob's posts are affected, only in the last few days, and it doesn't matter whether I read the email on an iPad or on a PC. I'm subscribed to receive an email echo of each individual post. >>> >>> Eric >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 7, 2016, at 5:57 AM, rayj wrote: >>>> The last few emails from Mr. Nuckolls have come through with what I assume is HTML code, but the actual text of his message is missing. Any information regarding the cause and/or solution to this issue will be appreciated. >>>> >>>> Raymond Julian >>>> >>>>> On 11/07/2016 07:03 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>>>>

      >>>>> 

      >>>>>
      >>>>> 
>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > Matt G Dralle | Matronics | 581 Jeannie Way | Livermore | CA | 94550 > 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email > http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 09, 2016
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: A List Contribution - It's Your Personal Squelch Button...
There is an automatic "squelch button" of sorts for the Fund Raiser messages. Here's how it works... As soon as a List member makes a Contribution through the Matronics Fund Raiser web site, their email address is automatically added to this year's Contributor List and they instantly cease to receive further Fund Raiser messages for the rest of the month! Its just that simple! :-) I really do appreciate each and every one of your individual Contributions to support the Lists. It is your support that enables me to upgrade the hardware and software that are required to run a List Site such as this one. It also goes to pay for the commercial-grade Internet connection and to pay the huge electric bill to keep the computer gear running and the air conditioner powered on. I run all of the Matronics Email List and Forums sites here locally which allows me to control and monitor every aspect of the system for the utmost in reliably and performance. Your personal Contribution matters because, when combined with other Listers such as yourself, it pays the bills to keep this site up and running. I accept exactly ZERO advertising dollars for the Matronics Lists sites. I can't stand the pop-up ads and all other commercials that are so prevalent on the Internet these days and I particularly don't want to have it on my Email List sites. If you appreciate the ad-free, grass-roots, down-home feel of the Matronics Email Lists, please make a Contribution to keep it that way!! http://www.matronics.com/contribution or, you can send a personal check to the following address: Matronics / Matt Dralle 581 Jeannie Way Livermore, CA 94550 Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [Note that there are certain circumstances where you might still see a Contribution related message. For example, if someone replies to one of the messages, when using the List Browse feature, or when accessing List message via the Forum. The system keys on the given email address and since most of these are anonymous public access methods, there is no simple way to filter them.] ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 10, 2016
From: Roger Evenson <revenson(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Adjustable VR166?
Quoted from message 65742: ">I have a regulator and alternator - my regulator is adjustable and >needed to be set to 14.5 to get a normal charge on my Odysseys." I know B&C sells an adjustable regulator at $180. I was just wondering if there are adjustable voltage regulators more closely priced to the standard VR166's? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Lyle Peterson <lyleap(at)centurylink.net>
Subject: HTML and no content in emails
Date: Nov 10, 2016
I am still receiving emails that consist mostly of HTML code. The real content of the message is not included. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 10, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Adjustable VR166?
At 05:22 PM 11/10/2016, you wrote: >Quoted from message 65742: >">I have a regulator and alternator - my regulator is adjustable and > >needed to be set to 14.5 to get a normal charge on my Odysseys." >I know B&C sells an adjustable regulator at $180. I was just >wondering if there are adjustabl Emacs! Yes it is . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Adjustable VR166?
From: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net>
Date: Nov 11, 2016
Matt, the problem still exists, would be nice you could revert your filter! Thanks Werner On 11.11.2016 00:22, Roger Evenson wrote: >

      > 

      >
      > 
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Adjustable VR166?
From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl>
Date: Nov 11, 2016
Indeed On 11/11/2016 8:24 AM, Werner Schneider wrote: > > > Matt, > > the problem still exists, would be nice you could revert your filter! > > Thanks Werner > > > On 11.11.2016 00:22, Roger Evenson wrote: >>

      >> 

      >>
      >> 
> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Stephen Richards <stephencliverichards(at)gmail.com>
Subject: HTML and no content in emails
Date: Nov 11, 2016
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From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: Nov 11, 2016
Subject: Re: HTML and no content in emails
Don't know if anyone can see this, but like others my email are still screwed up, like this: 3D=================== 3D=================== matronics.com 3D=================== 3D=================== On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 8:44 AM, Stephen Richards < stephencliverichards(at)gmail.com> wrote: >

      > 

      > 3D===================
      > 3D===================
      > aeroelectric.com
      > buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
      > homebuilthelp.com
      > mypilotstore.com
      > www.mrrace.com
      > matronics.com/contribution
      > 3D===================
      > 3D===================
      > List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>
      > 3D===================
      > 3D===================
      > matronics.com
      > 3D===================
      > 3D===================
      > http://wiki.matronics.com>
      > 3D===================
      > 3D===================
      > matronics.com/contribution
      > 3D===================
      > 3D===================
      >
      > 
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 2016
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Make Sure You're Listed! List of Contributors Published
in December! Dear Listers, The List of Contributors (LOC) is just around the corner! In December I post a list of everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists. Its my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation for the Lists. Won't you take minute and assure that your name is on the upcoming LOC? Tell others that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is fast and easy using your Visa, MasterCard, or Paypal account: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, drop a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 USA I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus far during this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps these Lists running and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment about how the Lists have helped you! Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2016
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: [PLEASE READ] Why I Have A Fund Raiser...
Since the beginning, the Matronics List and Forum experience has been free from advertising. I have been approached by fair number of vendors wanting to tap into the large volume of activity across the various lists hosted here, but have always flatly refused. Everywhere you go on the Internet these days, a user is pummeled with flashing banners and videos and ads for crap that they don't want. Yahoo, Google and that ilk are not "free". The user must constantly endure their barrage of commercialism thrust into their face at an ever increasing rate. Enough is enough, and the Lists at Matronics choose not to succumb to that. That being said, running a service of this size is not "free". It costs a lot of money to maintain the hardware, pay for the electricity, air conditioning, maintenance contracts, etc, etc. etc. I choose to hold a PBS-like fund raiser each year during the month of November where I simply send out a short email every other day asking the members to make a small contribution to support the operation. That being said, that contribution is completely voluntary and non-compulsory. Many members choose not to contribute and that's fine. However, a very modest percentage of the members do choose to make a contribution and it is that financial support that keeps the Lists running. And that's it. To my way of thinking, it is a much more pleasant way of maintaining the Lists and Forums. The other 11 months of the year, you don't see a single advertisement or request for support. That's refreshing and that is a List and Forum that I want to belong to. I think other people feel the same way. Won't you please take a minute to make your Contribution today and support these Lists? http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, drop a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 USA Thank you for your support! Matt Dralle Email List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 15, 2016
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Reminder
Dear Listers, A quick reminder that November is the annual Matronics List Fund Raiser. The Lists are 100% member supported and all of the operational costs are covered solely through your Contributions during this time of the year. *Your* personal Contribution makes a difference and keeps all of the Matronics Email Lists and Forums completely ad-free. Please make your Contribution today to keep these services up and running for another great year! Use a credit card or your PayPal account here: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, by sending a personal check to: Matronics / Matt Dralle 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 Thank you in advance! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Hunter" <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Automotive Electrical System Study
Date: Nov 15, 2016
Hi All, I finally got around to conducting the scientific study of the electrical draw of my car electrical system when the ignition switch is off. Here is the results of this scientific study: 1999 Saturn 3.46 MA 2002 Saturn 2.02 MA 2007 Yukon 3.42 MA The 1999 Saturn was the one I had the new battery die on last week. The battery was really dead (not mostly dead) after it sat at the airport for about 5 weeks. AutoZone determined that the 8 month old (new) battery had a bad cell and replaced it for FREE!!! I ass-u-me that one cell going bad could reduce the capacity of the battery to the point where the interior lights would not even show any kind of life?!?!? Anyhoo.THANKS AGAIN!!! .. Cheers!!! Bill Hunter ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "William Hunter" <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Subject: SV-MAG-236
Date: Nov 15, 2016
I may have to use a remote mounted SV-MAG-236 magnetometer for my Skyview system because my trim motor is in the location where the AHRS is located and this motor creates a small amount of magnetic interference. I placed a compass in the location and the needle moved a little.it might still work however I am thinking up my backup plan. The ideal location for the remote mounted SV-MAG-236 magnetometer would be under the rear seat of my Velocity (fiberglass) however that is where I want to mount my ADS-B antenna. So the question is.does an digital antenna (and or the coaxial cable running to/from it) create magnetic interference and/or how close to a ADS-B antenna can I locate the SV-MAG-236 magnetometer? THANKS for your help!!! .. Cheers!!! Bill Hunter ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au>
Subject: Re: SV-MAG-236
Date: Nov 16, 2016
G=99day Bill. There=99s actually no such thing as a digital antenna every signal (switched digital or analogue) is simply superimposed (i.e. modulated) onto a carrier sine wave at the pre-defined frequency (in this case 978MHz or 1090MHz depending on your ADS-B kit). It=99s more of an art than an exact science and while properly grounded coax in proximity may be just fine, having a radiating (transmitter) antenna that close to the magnetometer is not good. Dynon does allow an AHRS to be offset from the centreline (by extension the magnetometer too), so perhaps you could install the magnetometer in the wing root? Cheers, Stu F1 Rocket VH-FLY www.mykitlog.com/rockfly > On 16 Nov 2016, at 16:50, William Hunter wrote: > > I may have to use a remote mounted SV-MAG-236 magnetometer for my Skyview system because my trim motor is in the location where the AHRS is located and this motor creates a small amount of magnetic interference. I placed a compass in the location and the needle moved a littleit might still work however I am thinking up my backup plan. > > The ideal location for the remote mounted SV-MAG-236 magnetometer would be under the rear seat of my Velocity (fiberglass) however that is where I want to mount my ADS-B antenna. > > So the question isdoes an digital antenna (and or the coaxial cable running to/from it) create magnetic interference and/or how close to a ADS-B antenna can I locate the SV-MAG-236 magnetometer? > > THANKS for your help!!! > .. > > Cheers!!! > > Bill Hunter ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: LDR + RGB Led = Color sensor. How to calibrate it?
From: "Chuoi" <xiao46260(at)gmail.com>
Date: Nov 16, 2016
1$ color sensor. My adventures in electronics continue. While talking with a friend about colors, he told me about color sensors. Later I remembered the video where they sort smarties and so I wanted to know more. Watching some videos I found one with a LDR and a RGB led. They say it's not precise. Looking at the various builds of those sensors I guess that part of the problems are the case that holds everything together. Most of them have a lot of space between the LDR and the colored surface, some have the leds in front of the LDR... that cannot work. There should be no other light source than the RGB led. Put the LDR and RGB Led inside a small tube, inside needs to be black. I couldn't find a tube made of this material. so I took a thick Pen. Direct lightning of the rgb should be avoided. To get a nice homogeneous color I put a white semitransparent piece of plastic in front of the Led. The LDR should only get the reflected light. Put the sensor on top of the white plastic. The light needs to be behind the LDR!. It cannot work for everything. You can use it for only specific surfaces. For example I use glossy photo paper. Opaque would be better probably. but I had some photopaper in the printer and so I printed a colorpalette & a black and white palette. You need to know more about the Led & LDR. That is basically the problem. The Red, Green and Blue emitted by the led are not 100% red green and blue. The LDR cannot absorb every color perfectly . Without looking other codes I hooked up this color sensor pen to the arduino... and measured how much time it needs to turn on the various colors. I ended up with 50ms for each color. Done that I just let the LDR print some values on the screen. Black and white... how much range do I have from black to white? I wrote a code where it autocalibrates the black and white. Basically I measured the light asbsorbment on the previously printed black and white photo paper. I was actually impressed how much range i could have. From the total of 1023 range aviable on the arduino I go a black of around 30-50 on all colors and a white around 700. That means the color sensor has a theoretically precision of, let's say an average range of 650 on each color, 650*650*650 =274.625.000, around 270 million colors. Thats alot ...rgb has 16million colors. I personally know about 5-6 colors. At that point I started to test. to make it simple I placed another rgb led on the board and a white plastic hut on the led. The colors appeared already similar but to much lighness. Also on dark surfaces I got the led turn on. I then decreased the range at about 10% at the bottom and 10% from top. And wow.. color looks the same. But lets see the numbers. Printing the rgb values on screen gave different numbers than those I measured ... but opening a rgb color selector on screen and displaying it... showed approximately the right color ... so it was actually very correct.Even if my printer is a photoprinter it does not means that the colors are printed correctly. I never calibrated a printer or a monitor...So there can be a big difference. So I tried to calibrate the various colors based on the printed palette. Turned the red light on and decreased the range of green and blue to 0 while on red... the same for grren and blue.I finally found the real problems. The red is almost perfect. The blue is slightly shifted towards the red. The green has not enough light? When on green I need to put the red and blue levels very low. But doing that dr! ops the precision a lot . I get perfect red(255,0,0), blue(0,0,255), green(0,255,0), yellow(255,255,0),fuchsia(255,0,255),aqua(0,255,255). the range of every color is dropped so much that at the end I probably can measure only about 10-15 main colors. How could I calibrate a 1$ color sensor? Every led color is shifted slightly. The green does not output enough light. My printer didn't print the right colors. The LDR does not read every color correctly (wavelength,light....) I think somewhere out there is a mathematical calculation that allows the vitrual shifting of each color. I posted this here because it's a vast question that needs the basics of electronics engineering. While I think most problems could be solved with a complex mathematical function I could be wrong and solve the problem with some simple dimming of the led, adding more leds, maybe filter the light source or just move the sensor up or down inside the tube.what about just by changing the resistors?. In all cases a electronic engineer is needed. The way the leds emit the light and the sensor absorbs it has to do with the individual wavelength...i'm not an electronical enginer. I think also it's worth to ask because of the fact that color sensors are normally not that cheap. RGB led: TLHB4201 (http://www.kynix.com/Detail/3877/TLHB4201.html) LDR: FW300 Short clip that shows the sensor Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=462639#462639 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 16, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Automotive Electrical System Study
At 01:05 PM 11/15/2016, you wrote: >Hi All, > >I finally got around to conducting the scientific study of the >electrical draw of my car electrical system when the ignition switch is off. > >Here is the results of this scientific study: > >1999 Saturn 3.46 MA >2002 Saturn 2.02 MA >2007 Yukon 3.42 MA > >The 1999 Saturn was the one I had the new battery die on last >week. The battery was really dead (not mostly dead) after it sat at >the airport for about 5 weeks. AutoZone determined that the 8 month >old (new) battery had a bad cell and replaced it for FREE!!! > Interesting, thanks. Went out and measured the cars in my driveway: 1987 GMC R1500 24 mA 1998 Saturn SL1 1.5 mA 2006 Kia Sedona 2.0 mA >I ass-u-me that one cell going bad could reduce the capacity of the >battery to the point where the interior lights would not even show >any kind of life?!?!? Sure, if the cell went open . . . then it doesn't matter how much snort is left in the remaining cells. The truck's parked demand on the battery amounts to .024 x 24 x 30 = 17 a.h. or about 1/2 the battery's capacity in a month. I probably need to check that again, it seems excessive. Oops, just remembered that I've got a couple of chargers plugged into always hot outlets . . . I'll bet that's where most of the parked-drain is going. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Date: Nov 16, 2016
Subject: Re: Automotive Electrical System Study
I forgot that one of my Saturns had a mobile charger plugged so that would add to the draw. Bill Hunter +1 408-464-1902 On Nov 16, 2016 05:46, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 01:05 PM 11/15/2016, you wrote: > > Hi All, > > I finally got around to conducting the scientific study of the electrical > draw of my car electrical system when the ignition switch is off. > > Here is the results of this scientific study: > > 1999 Saturn 3.46 MA > 2002 Saturn 2.02 MA > 2007 Yukon 3.42 MA > > The 1999 Saturn was the one I had the new battery die on last week. The > battery was really dead (not mostly dead) after it sat at the airport for > about 5 weeks. AutoZone determined that the 8 month old (new) battery had > a bad cell and replaced it for FREE!!! > > > Interesting, thanks. > > Went out and measured the cars in my driveway: > > 1987 GMC R1500 24 mA > 1998 Saturn SL1 1.5 mA > 2006 Kia Sedona 2.0 mA > > > I ass-u-me that one cell going bad could reduce the capacity of the > battery to the point where the interior lights would not even show any kind > of life?!?!? > > > Sure, if the cell went open . . . then it > doesn't matter how much snort is left in > the remaining cells. > > The truck's parked demand on the > battery amounts to .024 x 24 x > 30 = 17 a.h. or about 1/2 the battery's > capacity in a month. I probably need > to check that again, it seems excessive. > > Oops, just remembered that I've got a > couple of chargers plugged into always > hot outlets . . . I'll bet that's where > most of the parked-drain is going. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Automotive Electrical System Study
From: "racerjerry" <gnking2(at)verizon.net>
Date: Nov 17, 2016
> I ass-u-me that one cell going bad could reduce the capacity of the battery to the point where the interior lights would not even show any kind of life?!?!? It has been quite a while since I have had a wet cell battery in either car or airplane with removable caps that I could monitor with a hydrometer, BUT I seem to remember that when one cell of a 12 volt battery shorted (would not take a charge), you basically ended up with a 10 volt battery. The 10 volts was certainly enough to dimly illuminate 12/14 volt lamps, but never able to crank the starter. Or am I full of crap. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=462661#462661 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 17, 2016
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: What's Your Contribution Used For?
Dear Listers, You might have wondered at some point, "What's my Contribution used for?" Here are just a few examples of what your direct List support enables... It provides for the expensive, commercial-grade Internet connection used on the List. It pays for the regular system hardware and software upgrades enabling the highest performance possible for List services such as the Archive Search Engine, List Browser, and the Web Forums. It pays for the over 23 years of on-line archive data always available for instant search and access. And, it offsets the many hours spent writing, developing, and maintaining the custom applications that power these List Service such as the List Browse, Search Engine, Forums, and Wiki. But most importantly, your List Contribution enables a forum where you and your peers can communicate freely in an environment that is free from moderation, censorship, advertising, commercialism, SPAM, and computer viruses. It is YOUR CONTRIBUTION that directly enables all these aspects of Matronics List services. Please support it today with your List Contribution. Its one of the best investments you can make in your Sport! List Contribution Web Site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or, you can send a personal check to the following address: Matronics / Matt Dralle 581 Jeannie Way Livermore, CA 94550 Thank you for your support! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 19, 2016
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Please Make a Contribution to Support Your Lists...
Dear Listers, Just a reminder that November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Please make a Contribution today to support the continued operation and upgrade of these great List services!! Pick up a really nice free gift with your qualifying Contribution too! The Contribution Site is fast and easy: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 21, 2016
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Coming Soon - The List of Contributors - Please Make
A Contribution Today! Each year at the end of the List Fund Raiser, I post a message acknowledging everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists. Its my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation for the Lists. Please take a moment and assure that your name is on that List of Contributors (LOC)! As a number of members have pointed out over the years, the List seems at least as valuable a building / entertainment tool as your typical magazine subscription! Assure that your name is on this year's LOC! Show others that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is fast and easy using your Credit card or Paypal on the Secure Web Site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus far in this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps these Lists going and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment about how the Lists have helped you! Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 23, 2016
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Value of the List...
If you look forward to checking your List email everyday (and a lot of you have written to say that you do!), then you're probably getting at least $20 or $30 worth of Entertainment from the Lists each year. You'd pay twice that for a subscription to some magazine or even a dinner out. Isn't the List worth at least that much to you? Wouldn't it be great if you could pay that amount and get a well-managed media source free of advertising, SPAM, and viruses? Come to think of it, you do... :-) Won't you please take a minute to make your Contribution today and support these Lists? http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, drop a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 USA I want to say THANK YOU to everyone that has made a Contribution thus far during this year's List Fund Raiser!! These Lists are made possible exclusively through YOUR generosity!! Thank you for your support! Matt Dralle Email List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Pienaar" <mike(at)vision499.com>
Subject: WIRE QUALITY
Date: Nov 23, 2016
Hello, I have attached a photo of wire that I have put into my project. The designation is M22759/34-14 90484, printed in green on the white insulation. Please note the double insulation, a blue sheath under the white. I have not noticed this double insulation on any of my other wires. The problem I have is that the wire seems to be badly tarnished and I am unable to solder it. I used paste flux on a small piece and the solder still will not stick. The sample is from the center on a long piece that has been cut so it is not as if the end could have corroded. All my other joints on this wire have been crimp joints and I just did not notice the bad discoloration on this wire. My question is will the crimped joints be OK? Is this wire OK or could it be counterfeit? Thanks Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Nov 24, 2016
Subject: Re: WIRE QUALITY
On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 12:36 AM, Mike Pienaar wrote: > > > Hello, > > > I have attached a photo of wire that I have put into my project. > > > The designation is M22759/34-14 90484, printed in green on the white > insulation. Please note the double insulation, a blue sheath under the > white. > > I have not noticed this double insulation on any of my other wires. > > > The problem I have is that the wire seems to be badly tarnished and I am > unable to solder it. I used paste flux on a small piece and the solder > still will not stick. > > The sample is from the center on a long piece that has been cut so it is > not as if the end could have corroded. > > All my other joints on this wire have been crimp joints and I just did > not notice the bad discoloration on this wire. > > > My question is will the crimped joints be OK? > > > Is this wire OK or could it be counterfeit? > > > Thanks > > > Mike > > Hi Mike, I've seen some mil spec wires listed on ebay (the listing included milspec # & data sheet) that use other-than tin to plate the strands; some are intended to only be crimped and the plating won't take solder. No idea if that's what you have; I've never gotten well versed in milspec-ese. Have you tried to clean the strands mechanically, with scotchbrite pads or a stainless scrubber (not remove the plating; just clean it)? If you can clean them mechanically and solder to the plating, you might have a problem with the ones that are crimped because it probably is corrosion. If it still won't take solder, it might be one of the crimp-only wires. Maybe someone with more knowledge of milspec #s will be able to help you. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 24, 2016
From: ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net
Subject: Re: WIRE QUALITY
Hi Mike; A brief check leads me to believe your wire is supposed to be made of tinned copper, which should be easy to solder and shouldn't easily corrode. Since yours is corroded and not easy to solder, you may have encountered a fake. Sorry to mention this, but better than relying on it later. It's definitely worth sending a sample to someone who can give you a definitive answer. Cheers! Stu. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Pienaar" <mike(at)vision499.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 10:36:33 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: WIRE QUALITY Hello, I have attached a photo of wire that I have put into my project. The designation is M22759/34-14 90484, printed in green on the white insulation. Please note the double insulation, a blue sheath under the white. I have not noticed this double insulation on any of my other wires. The problem I have is that the wire seems to be badly tarnished and I am unable to solder it. I used paste flux on a small piece and the solder still will not stick. The sample is from the center on a long piece that has been cut so it is not as if the end could have corroded. All my other joints on this wire have been crimp joints and I just did not notice the bad discoloration on this wire. My question is will the crimped joints be OK? Is this wire OK or could it be counterfeit? Thanks Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 24, 2016
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: WIRE QUALITY
Mike, Others have mentioned good ideas, but are you sure you're using the correct solder?=C2- If this wire is old, it may require solder with lead.=C2- If the solder you're using meets European RoHS, it has no lead.=C2- Most solder today is RoHS compatible.=C2- One way to tell is RoHS solder requi res a much higher temp to melt, and it doesn't melt quickly because the tra nsition range is wider.=C2-Henador Titzoff From: Mike Pienaar <mike(at)vision499.com> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2016 1:36 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: WIRE QUALITY =C2-Hello, =C2-I have attached a photo of wire that I have put int o my project. =C2-The designation is M22759/34-14 90484, printed in gree n on the white insulation. Please note the double insulation, a blue sheath under the white.I have not noticed this double insulation on any of my oth er wires. =C2-The problem I have is that the wire seems to be badly tarni shed and I am unable to solder it. I used paste flux on a small piece and t he solder still will not stick.The sample is from the center on a long piec e that has been cut so it is not as if the end could have corroded.All my o ther joints on this wire have been =C2-crimp joints and I just did not no tice the bad discoloration on this wire. =C2-My question is will the crim ped joints be OK? =C2-Is this wire OK or could it be counterfeit? =C2-T hanks =C2-Mike =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com>
Subject: WIRE QUALITY
Date: Nov 25, 2016
If your wire looks like that the entire length then just toss it. When it looks like that, it's often surplus garbage someone sells online that has been water damaged/submerged for extended periods of time. Of course I'm admittedly biased, but I always wonder why people try to step over a dollar to pick up a dime when it comes to just using the right wire on your plane to begin with. You can wire the entire airplane with brand new, high quality, known quantity wire for single hundreds of dollars. On top of that, the double shielding is a pain to work with now and in the future. Just my 2 cents as usual. Cheers, Stein From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Pienaar Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2016 12:37 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: WIRE QUALITY Hello, I have attached a photo of wire that I have put into my project. The designation is M22759/34-14 90484, printed in green on the white insulation. Please note the double insulation, a blue sheath under the white. I have not noticed this double insulation on any of my other wires. The problem I have is that the wire seems to be badly tarnished and I am unable to solder it. I used paste flux on a small piece and the solder still will not stick. The sample is from the center on a long piece that has been cut so it is not as if the end could have corroded. All my other joints on this wire have been crimp joints and I just did not notice the bad discoloration on this wire. My question is will the crimped joints be OK? Is this wire OK or could it be counterfeit? Thanks Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 26, 2016
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Just A Few Days Left...
Dear Listers, There are just a few days left for this year's List Fund Raiser. If you've been putting off making a Contribution until the last minute, well, this is it! The last minute, that is... :-) There are some GREAT new gift selections to choose from this year. I personally want at least three of them! There's probably something you can't live without too! And, best of all it supports your Lists! Please remember that there isn't any sort of commercial advertising on the Lists and the *only* means of keeping these Lists running is through your Contributions during this Fund Raiser. Let's make this a "Black Friday" for the Lists! Please make a Contribution today! http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, drop a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Audio Isolation Amplifier Boards
From: "nuckollsr" <bob.nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Date: Nov 26, 2016
I've had some requests for the bare etched circuit board called out in the DIY amplifier project featured at http://tinyurl.com/hn28p2q Unfortunately, there is a minimum quantity for fabricating these. If I could sell three more boards at $25 each postage paid, I would be wiling to bring another batch of these in house. This was probably the most successful DIY project on the AeroElectric website. I think we sold about 80 of those boards over the years. Bob . . . Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=463182#463182 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Nov 26, 2016
Subject: Re: Audio Isolation Amplifier Boards
I'm dim. What is an Audio Isolation Amplifier used for? Which is oblique way of asking, do I need one for my plane? -- Art Z. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Nov 26, 2016
Subject: source for nice crimp splices
A friend found some of these in a purchased RV-8 project. They seem to be really nice crimps. Very compact, and apparently come in singles, duals, triples, etc. Obviously need a dedicated tool, but for splicing in a bundle, they really reduce bulk. Anyone have any idea where they came from? Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Audio Isolation Amplifier Boards
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Nov 26, 2016
On 11/26/2016 12:58 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > I'm dim. What is an Audio Isolation Amplifier used for? Which is > oblique way of asking, do I need one for my plane? > > -- Art Z. > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, > what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/ Hi Art, They can have two potential uses. If you open the .pdf file from Bob's link, you'll see multiple sources listed that feed into one destination. This is 'summing' function, that allows combining multiple audio sources while maintaining isolation of the sources from each other. (If you just tie them all together, some or all may not be able to maintain a high enough level and/or have a clean signal. Like tying too many speakers in parallel to your stereo, or worse, tying the left and right outputs together.) With the isolation amp, you hear them all, but they don't interfere with each other. The second potential function (not implemented with the components shown, but possible), is to supply 'gain', or amplification. Some signal sources may not be loud enough to match up with other sources, or you may need more volume in a loud cockpit than your radios or intercom can supply. With a few tweaks to the circuit, it could supply amplification, as well. (Verify with Bob that he's ok with doing this in this particular circuit.) Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Audio Isolation Amplifier Boards
Date: Nov 26, 2016
I was wondering the same thing so I had a look at the .pdf. As far as I can t ell it's a budget way of tying in several radios to your intercom without sp ending thousands on an audio panel. Sebastien > On Nov 26, 2016, at 13:58, Art Zemon wrote: > > I'm dim. What is an Audio Isolation Amplifier used for? Which is oblique w ay of asking, do I need one for my plane? > > -- Art Z. > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what a m I? And if not now, when?" Hillel ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
Date: Nov 26, 2016
Subject: Re: Audio Isolation Amplifier Boards
I use it to consolidate music, vhf nav audio, and dynon audio output into th e single intercom input. > On Nov 26, 2016, at 21:18, Sebastien wrote: > > I was wondering the same thing so I had a look at the .pdf. As far as I ca n tell it's a budget way of tying in several radios to your intercom without spending thousands on an audio panel. > > Sebastien > >> On Nov 26, 2016, at 13:58, Art Zemon wrote: >> >> I'm dim. What is an Audio Isolation Amplifier used for? Which is oblique w ay of asking, do I need one for my plane? >> >> -- Art Z. >> >> -- >> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >> >> "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Audio Isolation Amplifier Boards
From: "merlewagner2" <wagnermerle(at)gmail.com>
Date: Nov 27, 2016
Bob, you can sign me up for 2 boards. Merle -------- KC1DNJ General Radiotelephone Commercial SEL A&P Building scale P51 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=463207#463207 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Audio Isolation Amplifier Boards
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: Nov 27, 2016
Bob, Did you mean bare (not etched) circuit boards? If so, a trip to you local PCB fab house will get you a truckload of boards in various thicknesses and single-double side configurations. Eric -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=463210#463210 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <rnjcurtis(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Audio Isolation Amplifier Boards
Date: Nov 27, 2016
Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Eric M. Jones Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2016 10:43 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Audio Isolation Amplifier Boards et> Bob, Did you mean bare (not etched) circuit boards? He meant bare boards with no holes or copper. You drill your own holes mount the components, and run wires to complete the circuits. Be real Eric! You know exactly what Bob meant Quit trying to stir the pot! Roger If so, a trip to you local PCB fab house will get you a truckload of boards in various thicknesses and single-double side configurations. Eric -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 27, 2016
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Please Make a Contribution to Support Your Lists...
Dear Listers, Just a reminder that November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Please make a Contribution today to support the continued operation and upgrade of these great List services!! Pick up a really nice free gift with your qualifying Contribution too! The Contribution Site is fast and easy: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Audio Isolation Amplifier Boards
From: "David Lewis" <Davidlewisstart(at)gmail.com>
Date: Nov 27, 2016
Bob . . . I would be interested in purchasing two of these boards as well. Should I go to the web site to place the order or is there a specific email you want us to use for the request? David Lewis Burbank, CA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=463292#463292 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 28, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Audio Isolation Amplifier Boards
At 09:40 AM 11/27/2016, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Did you mean bare (not etched) circuit boards? > >If so, a trip to you local PCB fab house will get you a truckload of >boards in various thicknesses and single-double side configurations. > >Eric No, our 9009-300-2A etched circuit board is a component of the DIY audio isolation amplifier project described in . . . http://tinyurl.com/ngoo6hc Emacs! Perhaps the better term is 'unpopulated'. It looks like this when you're done. Emacs! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 28, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Audio Isolation Amplifier Boards
At 08:18 PM 11/26/2016, you wrote: >I was wondering the same thing so I had a look at the .pdf. As far >as I can tell it's a budget way of tying in several radios to your >intercom without spending thousands on an audio panel. Correct. Notice too on the pictures that there are gain setting resistors installed in a socket. For audio sources with no adjustable output, you can select the resistor that levels that source with the rest of your sources. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 28, 2016
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Fund Raiser Behind By 28% - Please Contribute Today!
Dear Listers, The percentage of members making a Contribution to support the Lists this year is currently behind last year by at this time by roughly 28%. Please take this opportunity to show your support for the Matronics Lists and Forums! Please remember that it is *solely* your direct Contributions that keep these Lists and Forums up and running and most importantly - AD FREE! If the members don't want to support the Lists directly, then I might have to add advertisements to offset the costs of running the Lists. But I don't want to have to do that. I really like the non-commercial atmosphere here and I think that a lot of the members appreciate that too. Please take a moment to make a Contribution today in support of the continued ad-free operation of all these Lists: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, drop a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 USA I want to send out a word of appreciation to all of the members that have already made their generous Contribution to support the Lists! Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List and Forums Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fund Raiser
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Nov 28, 2016
I just want to encourage everyone to chip in, to keep Matt's lists alive. I've been around these lists for a very long time, and there's no better run aviation forum out there. The number of times I've gotten help from these lists is uncountable. I've been guilty over the years of not contributing, but as I see so many other clunky, over-moderated, advertising loaded sites, I'm much more motivated to help Matt keep fighting the good fight. I hope y'all will agree, and put your wallets where your mouths are. :-) Matt makes it easy to do; just pick your favorite method & amount. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Nov 28, 2016
Subject: Wiring Harness Installed
Folks, I've said it before but I need to say it again: *Thank you* for all of your advice and mentoring and generosity. Over the Thanksgiving weekend, I installed the first large piece of the wiring harness in my Bede BD-4C. There are lots of pictures (and probably way too many words) on my blog at Wiring Harness Installed . Cheers, -- Art Z. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 28, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Wiring Harness Installed
At 08:04 PM 11/28/2016, you wrote: >Folks, > >I've said it before but I need to say it again: >Thank you=C2 for all of your advice and mentoring >and generosity. Over the Thanksgiving weekend, I >installed the first large piece of the wiring >harness in my Bede BD-4C. There are lots of >pictures (and probably way too many words) on my >blog at >Wiring >Harness Installed. Thank you for sharing this sir. One thought popped up while reviewing the post . . . how LONG and what SIZE are the pigtails on the paralleled d-sub pins? You want the RESISTANCE of the pigtails to be significantly larger than the resistance of each pin which is on the order of 3 to 5 milliohms. I think we talked about this some weeks back. As a rule of thumb, I try to put 12" of 22AWG wire in the 'ballasting' resitance of each pin. This can be 6" pigtails on either side of a connector interface . . . or 12" on one side when the mating connector's wiring is not accessible to you (like an etched circuit board connector). 12" of 22AWG is 16 milliohms give or take. When ever I suggest this methodology for the misapplication of d-subs, I strive to make this pigtail length and size clear and perhaps even explain why. So while your photos and narrative are excellent, I'll suggest you add a notation that those 22AWG pigtails should be on the order of 12" TOTAL. Other than this niggling little detail, I'm impresses with your work and willingness to pass along what you've learned to others. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Nov 28, 2016
Subject: Re: Wiring Harness Installed
Bob, The pigtails are 12" total, 6" on each side of the connector, just as you specified. I will definitely update my blog post because this is an important point. IIRC, you had a write up about this on your website somewhere. Please point me at it so that I can include the pointer in my blog post. Cheers, -- Art Z. On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 8:49 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 08:04 PM 11/28/2016, you wrote: > > Folks, > > I've said it before but I need to say it again: *Thank you*=C3=82 for all of > your advice and mentoring and generosity. Over the Thanksgiving weekend, I > installed the first large piece of the wiring harness in my Bede BD-4C. > There are lots of pictures (and probably way too many words) on my blog a t Wiring > Harness Installed > . > > > Thank you for sharing this sir. One thought popped > up while reviewing the post . . . how LONG and what > SIZE are the pigtails on the paralleled d-sub pins? > > You want the RESISTANCE of the pigtails to be significantly > larger than the resistance of each pin which is on > the order of 3 to 5 milliohms. I think we talked about > this some weeks back. As a rule of thumb, I try to put > 12" of 22AWG wire in the 'ballasting' resitance > of each pin. This can be 6" pigtails on either side > of a connector interface . . . or 12" on one side > when the mating connector's wiring is not accessible > to you (like an etched circuit board connector). > > 12" of 22AWG is 16 milliohms give or take. When ever > I suggest this methodology for the misapplication of > d-subs, I strive to make this pigtail length and size > clear and perhaps even explain why. So while your > photos and narrative are excellent, I'll suggest you > add a notation that those 22AWG pigtails should be > on the order of 12" TOTAL. > > Other than this niggling little detail, I'm impresses > with your work and willingness to pass along what > you've learned to others. > > > Bob . . . > -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Nov 28, 2016
Subject: Re: Problems Soldering DB-25 Connectors
Bob, I found your explanation about the ballasting 22 AWG pigtails. It was in an email to me, not on your website. I will use this to update my blog post. -- Art Z. On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 9:01 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 08:22 PM 9/21/2016, you wrote: > > > Be careful about dry joints, the solder should be bright and shiny all > around > the joint. > > > . . . which is easy to achieve with 63/37 solder featuring > quality flux. > > If the wire is carrying just signal, clipping a strand or two should > be fine . . . > > > I've attached 18 AWG wires to solder-cups by trimming > back excess strands. This was a system with long runs > of wire where voltage drop was an issue. There are > companies that make special adapters to put too-large > wires into 20AWG solder-cups but trimming the strands > is more compact and works good too. > > (with adequate strain relief). > > > The backshell is were wire-support takes place. > Heat shrink is more of a hedge against pin-to-pin > shorts by conductive contaminants . . . a thing > that just doesn't happen in a clean work environment. > > > Power carrying wire demand more careful consideration > about potential resistive heating and voltage drop. > > > Sort of . . . but pin-to-socket interface within > the connector is the driving concern about path > resistance. 20AWG wire is 10 milliohms per FOOT, > 22AWG is 16 mOhms/Ft. A single pin-to-socket > interface on a d-sub can present 3 millioms of > resistance over a millimeter. Variability in > resistance between pin-to-socket interface within > a connector gives rise to the prohibition for > paralleling pins to increase current handling > of any one path. > > I designed and qualified a paralleled d-sub pin > process at Beech that was used in both targets > and production aircraft. This involved EXTENDING > each pin in a paralleled array with say 12" of > 22AWG wire before the pin-paths were joined in > parallel. This ADDS 16 milliohms resistance to > each 1-3 milliohm pin-to-socket variability. > This 'ballasting' resistance forces the sharing > of current across an array of paralleled pins. > > The short answer is that concerns for heating > due to current flow reside in the pins . . . > not the wires. > > Bob . . . > -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 29, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Problems Soldering DB-25 Connectors
At 09:45 PM 11/28/2016, you wrote: >Bob, > >I found your explanation about the ballasting 22 AWG pigtails. It >was in an email to me, not on your website. I will use this to >update my blog post. Oops . . . my bad. I'll update my own postings as well. Thanks! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 29, 2016
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Just Two Days Left! - Still Behind...
Dear Listers, There are just two more days left in this years List Fund Raiser. We are still way behind last year in terms of the number of contributions and total contribution amount. I really want to keep providing these services to the homebuilt community, but it take resources. Since there's no advertising budget or deep pockets to keep the operation a float, its solely your generosity during the Fund Raiser that keeps things going. Please make a Contribution today. If you've been putting off showing your support for the Lists, now is the time to do it! Make a contribution with a Credit Card or though PayPal at that Matronics Contribution web site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, drop a check in the mail: Matronics / Matt Dralle 581 Jeannie Way Livermore, CA 94550 Thank you in advance for your support! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 30, 2016
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: [Please Read] - Last Official Day of List Fund Raiser!
Dear Listers, It's November 30th and that always means a couple of things. Its my birthday again - 53! :-) But it also means that it's that last official day of the Matronics Email List Fund Raiser! If you been thinking about picking up one of those really nice incentive gifts now is the time to jump on it!! If you've been meaning to make a Contribution this month but have been putting it off for some reason, NOW is the time! I will be posting the List of Contributors in a few days, so you'll probably want to be known as a person that supported the Lists! I want to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution this year in support of our Lists. It is your generosity that keeps this operation running and I don't ever forget it. The List Contribution Web Site is fast and easy. Please support our habit by making your Contribution right now: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 USA Thank you in advance! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Thomas Barter" <kesleyelectric(at)iowatelecom.net>
Subject: Fabric Iron heat control
Date: Dec 02, 2016
Bob and all, Not quite directly aircraft electrical system related, but still pertinent to aviation: As I work on the fabric covering of my project, I find that the irons that I have tried for heat shrinking the fabric (a Black and Decker classic and a Rowenta) have poor thermostats for temperature control. By calibrating with an infra red gun, the hot spot in the iron can be made to shut off close to 350 degrees, which is good. The problem is that the sole has to cool to around 290 degrees before the thermostat closes again, which can take a minute of so. Any suggestions on a homebrew or other type of control to keep the temperature closer to 350 would be appreciated. Tom Barter Avid Magnum ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Subject: Re: Fabric Iron heat control
Date: Dec 02, 2016
Tom, I hate to tell you to spend more money but Wintersteiger makes an affordable digital ski wax iron that works great for fabric covering. Search Amazon f or "digital ski wax iron." There are other digital ski wax irons but they a re more expensive. Best regards, Robert Borger 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 (C) 817-992-1117 Sent from my iPad > On Dec 2, 2016, at 17:55, Thomas Barter w rote: > > Bob and all, > > Not quite directly aircraft electrical system related, but still pertinent to aviation: > > As I work on the fabric covering of my project, I find that the irons that I have tried for heat shrinking the fabric (a Black and Decker classic and a Rowenta) have poor thermostats for temperature control. By calibrating wit h an infra red gun, the hot spot in the iron can be made to shut off close t o 350 degrees, which is good. The problem is that the sole has to cool to a round 290 degrees before the thermostat closes again, which can take a minut e of so. > > Any suggestions on a homebrew or other type of control to keep the tempera ture closer to 350 would be appreciated. > > Tom Barter > Avid Magnum ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Date: Dec 03, 2016
Subject: Magnetos connection to ground
Guys Which is the best practice to connect the Magnetos Ground terminals to the Firewall Ground "forest"? Is it recommended to wire Left and Right magnetos with separate wires, or can they be connected to each other and then to the Ground forest? And how about the wires to be used, should they be shielded or unshielded? Which gauge? One more question: for the connections from the ignition switch to both magnetos, I am using shielded wires, so should the shields be connected on both sides (like it is recommended in Tony Bingelis' books), or only on one side? In this last case, the shield should be connected in the magneto side, so is it good to connect the shield to the Ground terminal of the magneto? Thanks in advance Carlos ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 03, 2016
Subject: Re: Magnetos connection to ground
On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 7:04 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote: > trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> > > Guys > > Which is the best practice to connect the Magnetos Ground terminals to the > Firewall Ground "forest"? > Is it recommended to wire Left and Right magnetos with separate wires, or > can they be connected to each other and then to the Ground forest? > > And how about the wires to be used, should they be shielded or unshielded? > Which gauge? > > One more question: for the connections from the ignition switch to both > magnetos, I am using shielded wires, so should the shields be connected on > both sides (like it is recommended in Tony Bingelis' books), or only on one > side? > In this last case, the shield should be connected in the magneto side, so > is it good to connect the shield to the Ground terminal of the magneto? > > Thanks in advance > Carlos Hi Carlos, You don't need to carry the mag ground to the firewall. The wire from the mag to the switch should be a shielded wire, with the center conductor tied to the 'P' lead terminal and the shield tied to the mag's case, using any convenient screw on the case. The mag's case is electrically bonded to the engine, and the engine has a ground to the firewall/battery negative. The other end of the wire should have the center (P-lead) tied to one of the terminals on your switch, and the shield tied to the other terminal (or the ground terminal, if you're using a key type switch). No need to ground it locally near the switch, and I don't do it, since there's the potential of injecting mag noise into your other electronics. Grounding it locally gives the noise you're trying to shield an additional path to follow, which may be around/through other electronics. Grounding it locally can also mask a failed shield connection, because the P lead would still be shorted to ground even with the shield broken. The hazard of this is when you (or worse, someone else) is doing maintenance. If you have a broken shield & don't know it, everything will appear to be normal until someone is doing maintenance & removes a ground wire for electrical safety. If this ungrounds the engine from the rest of the airframe, the mag is now 'hot', even with the mag switch 'off'. The shielded P-lead has a dual purpose. While the engine is operating, the shield is grounded only at the mag and functions purely as a shield, to limit the radiated noise from the mag. When you turn off the mag, you're actually closing the switch contacts, and the shield serves as the ground return to short out mag's primary coil. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 03, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Avionics Master
>Comments/Questions: Bob ... I took our seminar many years ago and >you suggested not to use an Avionics Master .. that you can just >turn on each component etc. So that's what i did .. and it's worked >just fine. However, I'm now redesigning my panel with remote mount >avionics .. COMM, TRANSPONDER, AUDIO PANEL etc. Now I'm curious how >I should protect these during start up? Should I now plan for a >MASTER or do I have to use individual switches for each component? > >Thank you for your expertise! > >Regards, > >Dave The avionics master switch was borne of an idea not grounded in physics. I was at Cessna in the 60's when, for reasons we didn't understand, radios were being killed in brand new airplanes by the dozens. Adding the AV Master did indeed 'help' but for reasons we did not know. Check out the writings on my website concerning the AV Master. http://tinyurl.com/mr2jk8g If you ever get to OSH, it would be interesting to stop by the booths of the manufacturer of ANY solid state device be it radio, instrument, system controller, etc. and inquire as to their recommendations for 'protecting their product from the effects of engine cranking'. If any one of them says that an AV Master is recommended, I'd like to hear about it. Since the universal adoption of DO-160 protocols about 50 years ago, risks to electronics from startup transients (or other any well understood transients) has gone to zero. Turns out that the 'radio killer' in the 1960's Cessnas was soggy batteries combined with poor design rules for the radio's newly minted solid state power supplies. That combination of shortfalls was easily and has been eliminated. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 03, 2016
Subject: Re: Magnetos connection to ground
On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 7:44 AM, Charlie England wrote: > > > On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 7:04 AM, Carlos Trigo > wrote: > >> trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> >> >> Guys >> >> Which is the best practice to connect the Magnetos Ground terminals to >> the Firewall Ground "forest"? >> Is it recommended to wire Left and Right magnetos with separate wires, or >> can they be connected to each other and then to the Ground forest? >> >> And how about the wires to be used, should they be shielded or >> unshielded? Which gauge? >> >> One more question: for the connections from the ignition switch to both >> magnetos, I am using shielded wires, so should the shields be connected on >> both sides (like it is recommended in Tony Bingelis' books), or only on one >> side? >> In this last case, the shield should be connected in the magneto side, so >> is it good to connect the shield to the Ground terminal of the magneto? >> >> Thanks in advance >> Carlos > > Hi Carlos, > > You don't need to carry the mag ground to the firewall. The wire from the > mag to the switch should be a shielded wire, with the center conductor tied > to the 'P' lead terminal and the shield tied to the mag's case, using any > convenient screw on the case. The mag's case is electrically bonded to the > engine, and the engine has a ground to the firewall/battery negative. The > other end of the wire should have the center (P-lead) tied to one of the > terminals on your switch, and the shield tied to the other terminal (or the > ground terminal, if you're using a key type switch). No need to ground it > locally near the switch, and I don't do it, since there's the potential of > injecting mag noise into your other electronics. Grounding it locally gives > the noise you're trying to shield an additional path to follow, which may > be around/through other electronics. Grounding it locally can also mask a > failed shield connection, because the P lead would still be shorted to > ground even with the shield broken. The hazard of this is when you (or > worse, someone else) is doing maintenance. If you have a broken shield & > don't know it, everything will appear to be normal until someone is doing > maintenance & removes a ground wire for electrical safety. If this > ungrounds the engine from the rest of the airframe, the mag is now 'hot', > even with the mag switch 'off'. > > The shielded P-lead has a dual purpose. While the engine is operating, the > shield is grounded only at the mag and functions purely as a shield, to > limit the radiated noise from the mag. When you turn off the mag, you're > actually closing the switch contacts, and the shield serves as the ground > return to short out mag's primary coil. > > Charlie > > Forgot to add, each mag should be a separate entity, with its own shielded P-lead. The only thing that should be common is (potentially) the grounding (shutdown) terminal(s) in the switch, if you're using a key-switch type control for the mags. If you're using toggles, then nothing would be common between the mags' wiring. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 03, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Magnetos connection to ground
At 07:04 AM 12/3/2016, you wrote: > >Guys > >Which is the best practice to connect the Magnetos Ground terminals >to the Firewall Ground "forest"? >Is it recommended to wire Left and Right magnetos with separate >wires, or can they be connected to each other and then to the Ground forest? > >And how about the wires to be used, should they be shielded or >unshielded? Which gauge? They can be any size . . . but 20AWG or larger is sort of standard practice for mechanical robustness. Some OEM TC airplane guys don't use anything smaller than 20AWG under the cowl. >One more question: for the connections from the ignition switch to >both magnetos, I am using shielded wires, so should the shields be >connected on both sides (like it is recommended in Tony Bingelis' >books), or only on one side? >In this last case, the shield should be connected in the magneto >side, so is it good to connect the shield to the Ground terminal of >the magneto? Here is the recommended configuration for managing p-leads. Emacs! This connection philosophy offers greatest noise control and eliminates any potential for burning the p-leads with starter current in the event that the crankcase bonding jumper is disconnected (don't laugh . . . I've seen it happen twice). Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Magnetos connection to ground
Date: Dec 03, 2016
A comment about the P-lead mounting. That wire connection at the mag is subject to a lot of vibration and turbul ence. Secure the P-lead as if a room full of kindergarten kids are going to use i t as a tug of rope game. We all know the danger of a disconnected P-lead leaving the mag hot and rea dy to fire a plug if the prop is moved. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- ----- Original Message ----- From: Charlie England To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 10:03 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Magnetos connection to ground On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 7:44 AM, Charlie England wr ote: On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 7:04 AM, Carlos Trigo wr ote: epac.pt> Guys Which is the best practice to connect the Magnetos Ground terminals t o the Firewall Ground "forest"? Is it recommended to wire Left and Right magnetos with separate wires , or can they be connected to each other and then to the Ground forest? And how about the wires to be used, should they be shielded or unshie lded? Which gauge? One more question: for the connections from the ignition switch to bo th magnetos, I am using shielded wires, so should the shields be connected on both sides (like it is recommended in Tony Bingelis' books), or only on one side? In this last case, the shield should be connected in the magneto side , so is it good to connect the shield to the Ground terminal of the magneto ? Thanks in advance Carlos Hi Carlos, You don't need to carry the mag ground to the firewall. The wire from t he mag to the switch should be a shielded wire, with the center conductor t ied to the 'P' lead terminal and the shield tied to the mag's case, using a ny convenient screw on the case. The mag's case is electrically bonded to t he engine, and the engine has a ground to the firewall/battery negative. Th e other end of the wire should have the center (P-lead) tied to one of the terminals on your switch, and the shield tied to the other terminal (or the ground terminal, if you're using a key type switch). No need to ground it locally near the switch, and I don't do it, since there's the potential of injecting mag noise into your other electronics. Grounding it locally gives the noise you're trying to shield an additional path to follow, which may be around/through other electronics. Grounding it locally can also mask a f ailed shield connection, because the P lead would still be shorted to groun d even with the shield broken. The hazard of this is when you (or worse, so meone else) is doing maintenance. If you have a broken shield & don't know it, everything will appear to be normal until someone is doing maintenance & removes a ground wire for electrical safety. If this ungrounds the engine from the rest of the airframe, the mag is now 'hot', even with the mag swi tch 'off'. The shielded P-lead has a dual purpose. While the engine is operating, the shield is grounded only at the mag and functions purely as a shield, to limit the radiated noise from the mag. When you turn off the mag, you're a ctually closing the switch contacts, and the shield serves as the ground re turn to short out mag's primary coil. Charlie Forgot to add, each mag should be a separate entity, with its own shielde d P-lead. The only thing that should be common is (potentially) the groundi ng (shutdown) terminal(s) in the switch, if you're using a key-switch type control for the mags. If you're using toggles, then nothing would be common between the mags' wiring. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au>
Subject: Re: Magnetos connection to ground
Date: Dec 04, 2016
Yes, dangers such as this recent example . that caught the pilot by surprise because the switches were left on . https://youtu.be/XFqDZagVeJU > On 4 Dec. 2016, at 06:23, David Lloyd wrote: > > A comment about the P-lead mounting. > > That wire connection at the mag is subject to a lot of vibration and turbulence. > Secure the P-lead as if a room full of kindergarten kids are going to use it as a tug of rope game. > We all know the danger of a disconnected P-lead leaving the mag hot and ready to fire a plug if the prop is moved. > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Charlie England <mailto:ceengland7(at)gmail.com> >> To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com >> Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 10:03 AM >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Magnetos connection to ground >> >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 7:44 AM, Charlie England > wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Dec 3, 2016 at 7:04 AM, Carlos Trigo > wrote: > >>>> >>>> Guys >>>> >>>> Which is the best practice to connect the Magnetos Ground terminals to the Firewall Ground "forest"? >>>> Is it recommended to wire Left and Right magnetos with separate wires, or can they be connected to each other and then to the Ground forest? >>>> >>>> And how about the wires to be used, should they be shielded or unshielded? Which gauge? >>>> >>>> One more question: for the connections from the ignition switch to both magnetos, I am using shielded wires, so should the shields be connected on both sides (like it is recommended in Tony Bingelis' books), or only on one side? >>>> In this last case, the shield should be connected in the magneto side, so is it good to connect the shield to the Ground terminal of the magneto? >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance >>>> Carlos >>> Hi Carlos, >>> >>> You don't need to carry the mag ground to the firewall. The wire from the mag to the switch should be a shielded wire, with the center conductor tied to the 'P' lead terminal and the shield tied to the mag's case, using any convenient screw on the case. The mag's case is electrically bonded to the engine, and the engine has a ground to the firewall/battery negative. The other end of the wire should have the center (P-lead) tied to one of the terminals on your switch, and the shield tied to the other terminal (or the ground terminal, if you're using a key type switch). No need to ground it locally near the switch, and I don't do it, since there's the potential of injecting mag noise into your other electronics. Grounding it locally gives the noise you're trying to shield an additional path to follow, which may be around/through other electronics. Grounding it locally can also mask a failed shield connection, because the P lead would still be shorted to ground even with the shield broken. The hazard of this is when you (or worse, someone else) is doing maintenance. If you have a broken shield & don't know it, everything will appear to be normal until someone is doing maintenance & removes a ground wire for electrical safety. If this ungrounds the engine from the rest of the airframe, the mag is now 'hot', even with the mag switch 'off'. >>> >>> The shielded P-lead has a dual purpose. While the engine is operating, the shield is grounded only at the mag and functions purely as a shield, to limit the radiated noise from the mag. When you turn off the mag, you're actually closing the switch contacts, and the shield serves as the ground return to short out mag's primary coil. >>> >>> Charlie >>> >> Forgot to add, each mag should be a separate entity, with its own shielded P-lead. The only thing that should be common is (potentially) the grounding (shutdown) terminal(s) in the switch, if you're using a key-switch type control for the mags. If you're using toggles, then nothing would be common between the mags' wiring. > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 05, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Problems Soldering DB-25 Connectors
At 10:48 AM 11/29/2016, you wrote: >At 09:45 PM 11/28/2016, you wrote: >>Bob, >> >>I found your explanation about the ballasting 22 AWG pigtails. It >>was in an email to me, not on your website. I will use this to >>update my blog post. > > Oops . . . my bad. I'll update my own > postings as well. Thanks! It took a little bit but I've uploaded the paralleled d-sub pins saga at http://tinyurl.com/jx96vpd . . .even got it indexed. Man! I need to spend more time on the website. There's about a dozen updates I need to post. Anybody got some 36 hour days for sale? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Avionics Master
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Dec 06, 2016
Not to poke a sleeping bear... I've got an avionics master not because I'm worried out spikes. My concern is with the opposite. Sags. I also have remote avionics (no power switches on the devices) with a VPX power distribution system. When I'm starting up the EFIS will reboot if the voltage gets too low (I'd have to check the doc's but I think it gets unhappy below 18 or maybe 20v). The radios are a bit more tolerant as they will handle much lower voltages. Not sure about the GPS or audio panel. The greater issue is that when the EFIS power sags, sometimes it won't reboot and just goes into limbo. Then I have to go in to the VPX, shut off the breaker, wait, and then reactivate the breaker to get the EFIS back up. The EFIS doesn't reboot on every start. But if I've been fighting a stubborn hot start then the battery can get a little tired. For the primary EFIS, I have a small backup battery that powers the EFIS that during engine starts. I could have put in a second backup battery for the other EFIS, or a switch for the second EFIS. But it seems like the simplest solution is an avionics master. This also allows me to power up the electrical system if I want to work on the gear retract system, lights, etc., without powering up the avionics. Just my .02 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=463750#463750 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 06, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Avionics Master
At 07:47 AM 12/6/2016, you wrote: > >Not to poke a sleeping bear... > >I've got an avionics master not because I'm worried out spikes. My >concern is with the opposite. Sags. > >I also have remote avionics (no power switches on the devices) with >a VPX power distribution system. When I'm starting up the EFIS will >reboot if the voltage gets too low (I'd have to check the doc's but >I think it gets unhappy below 18 or maybe 20v). The radios are a bit >more tolerant as they will handle much lower voltages. Not sure >about the GPS or audio panel. Low voltage is generally not a stress to be 'handled' beyond the ability to make a graceful recovery after the brown-out event. This shortcoming is generally limited to devices with micro-controllers that are not fitted with brown-out protection features . . . Failure to design such features into a modern appliance is something akin to forgetting to include a filler-spout on a fuel tank. Pretty elementary. In 50+ years of designing and fabricating electro-whizzies for aircraft from Hawker 4000 to ultra-lights, I've never been challenged by the notion that brown-outs of any magnitude, rate and duration are a special force to be wrestled with. > > >The greater issue is that when the EFIS power sags, sometimes it >won't reboot and just goes into limbo. Then I have to go in to the >VPX, shut off the breaker, wait, and then reactivate the breaker to >get the EFIS back up. > >The EFIS doesn't reboot on every start. But if I've been fighting a >stubborn hot start then the battery can get a little tired. For the >primary EFIS, I have a small backup battery that powers the EFIS >that during engine starts. > >I could have put in a second backup battery for the other EFIS, or a >switch for the second EFIS. But it seems like the simplest solution >is an avionics master. This also allows me to power up the >electrical system if I want to work on the gear retract system, >lights, etc., without powering up the avionics. > >Just my .02 Unfortunately, there are numerous products offered to the aviation markets that are not designed to the spirit and intent of legacy rules-of-the-road for aviation appliances. Brownout mitigation has been discussed numerous times over the years here on the List with a variety solutions offered. They all have the disadvantage of increased weight, system complexity and potential electro-magnetic compatibility issues (radio noise). Do these affected systems not have their own power switches? If not, then you're not really adding an avionics master but simply a power control switch to a device that does not already have one. In such cases, it seems prudent to have a separate switch for each device . . . this gets around the issue of generating single points of failure for multiple appliances. Cost of ownership for adding switches will be lower than for adding more batteries that need to be maintained throughout the life of the aircraft . . . but only serve a useful purpose for a few tens of milliseconds every flight cycle. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Avionics Master
From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: Dec 06, 2016
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > At 07:47 AM 12/6/2016, you wrote: > Do these affected systems not have their own power switches? Nope. These devices have no external controls. > If not, then you're not really adding an avionics master but simply a power control switch to a device that does not already have one. In such cases, it seems prudent to have a separate switch for each device . . . this gets around the issue of generating single points of failure for multiple appliances. I thought about doing that. But I felt the additional wiring and switches to be an added complication. Besides, each device can be powered on or off through the VPX so that is my "individual device" switch. And my "Avionics Master" switch can be bypassed from the VPX as well (should it fail). So to me, that seems like a win-win. :D Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=463754#463754 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Avionics Master
Date: Dec 06, 2016
All the Beech products I flew had a NC relay opened by turning the avionics master switch off. If the switch failed and the avionics went dark, you just pulled the breaker for the switch and the avionics came back on. Seems like a simple solution to me. Sebastien > On Dec 6, 2016, at 10:38, donjohnston <don@velocity-xl.com> wrote: > > > > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: >> At 07:47 AM 12/6/2016, you wrote: >> Do these affected systems not have their own power switches? > > Nope. These devices have no external controls. > > >> If not, then you're not really adding an avionics master but simply a power control switch to a device that does not already have one. In such cases, it seems prudent to have a separate switch for each device . . . this gets around the issue of generating single points of failure for multiple appliances. > > I thought about doing that. But I felt the additional wiring and switches to be an added complication. Besides, each device can be powered on or off through the VPX so that is my "individual device" switch. And my "Avionics Master" switch can be bypassed from the VPX as well (should it fail). > > So to me, that seems like a win-win. :D > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=463754#463754 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 06, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Ballasting Dsub connectors
At 11:14 AM 12/6/2016, you wrote: >Bob > >For the illiteratti among us, please explain the concept behind the >12 inch pigtails a bit more. My takeaway from the article was that >12 inches of wire act as a "resistor" in series with the pin. Would >you not need to tailor each pigtail to attain the correct >resistance? Or, just by having this increased resistance, within a >range, does it drive the pins to share current? Correct. And thank you for that question. I should have described that effect in the article. I've edited it to include that explanation. >The final takeaway was that, without the pigtails, one pin would hog >the load, overload and fail, causing a cascade failure of the entire >connector under load. Yes, no or should I go back to my corner? Not at all . . . in fact, you've spotlighted the need for further elaboration. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Valin Thorn" <valin(at)starflight.aero>
Subject: Alternator Field Circuit Fuse Blow
Date: Dec 06, 2016
Hello Bob, First, let me say a big thank you for all your help over the years during the design and build of the electrical system of our Lancair Legacy airplane. We've been flying now for 14 months, have about 140 hours of flight time, and the airplane received EAA's Kit Built Grand Champion Award this year. The electrical system has been working very well. It's based on your Z-12 single battery, dual alternator architecture. We do have a slight mystery, though, that I would sure appreciate your thoughts on. We've had the primary alternator's (100 A) field circuit fuse blow (fuse not CB) while deploying the landing gear, on two occasions - once two months ago and once this morning. Here's some background info. We have a fuse tray that pulls out of the panel holding blade type fuses that light up when they've blown -- saved a bunch of real estate on the panel. The landing gear are powered by an electric motor driven hydraulic pump that can pull almost 80 A at times. On the first occasion the field fuse blew I'd eventually attributed it to being because one of our two PC680 batteries (in series for 28 VDC) was heat damaged from sitting down stream of the oil cooler and was not holding a charge well and maybe not compensating for the big current draw from the hydraulic pump motor as well as it should. The battery issue was corrected (replaced) a couple months ago and all has been well until this morning when the field fuse blew again on landing gear extension. On both occasions the fuse blew on landing gear extension which seems to be the least loaded gear operation since the weight of the gear and their gas spring struts want to deploy the gear anyway - the pump can barely keep up. But, we do have a modification to our landing gear system where the inboard gear doors close after gear go down and the pump typically cycles very quickly several time while it's closing the inboard doors. For more background, we splurged on expensive hermetically sealed contactors rated for 100 A continuous for switching the hydraulic pump motor -- Tyco Kilovac EV100 relays with built in voltage suppression diodes. I know you're the architect of the amazing crow bar over voltage protection featured in our L3RC-28 linear alternator regulator from B & C Specialties. In talking with TJ at B&C today, he said if the regulator sees over 32 VDC for more than 5 milliseconds that the crow bar over voltage will short the field circuit to trip the CB or fuse. We're both wondering if using a 5A fuse vs. a 5A CB could make a difference.? Anyway, what do you think about this? It has only happened twice. Could the field current to drive a 100A alternator under a high load exceed the 5A fuse limit? Should we try a 7A fuse? Is this likely from an over-voltage condition and if so what's causing it? Could it be that the regulator isn't dropping the field strength fast enough after the landing gear/hydraulic motor stops running and causing an over voltage spike that's tripping the crow bar over voltage circuit? Thanks in advance for your help! Valin Thorn StarHawk Lancair Legacy -- N321TF Sedona, Arizona ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Alternator Field Circuit Fuse Blow
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 07, 2016
A circuit breaker is best for this application because breakers take longer to trip than fuses. A breaker will tolerate short spikes of motor starting current that might blow a fuse. But since the plane already has a fuse installed, I would increase the size to 7.5 amps instead of replacing the fuse with a circuit breaker, provided that the crowbar module can handle the extra current in the event of over-voltage. If the 7.5 amp fuse does not blow, then you will know that over-voltage is not the problem, and that the alternator field draws more than 5 amps when the alternator is heavily loaded. Check the fuse holder to make sure that it tightly grips the fuse. A loose connection will make heat that will eventually blow a fuse. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=463767#463767 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 07, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator Field Circuit Fuse Blow
> >On both occasions the fuse blew on landing gear >extension which seems to be the least loaded >gear operation since the weight of the gear and >their gas spring struts want to deploy the gear >anyway ' the pump can barely keep up. But, we >do have a modification to our landing gear >system where the inboard gear doors close after >gear go down and the pump typically cycles very >quickly several time while it=92s closing the >inboard doors. For more background, we splurged >on expensive hermetically sealed contactors >rated for 100 A continuous for switching the >hydraulic pump motor -- Tyco Kilovac EV100 >relays with built in voltage suppression diodes. Building a 'fits all' version of a linear regulator is a real challenge. The regulator is but one component in a negative feedback control loop wherein EVERY part of the system has some effect on loop stability. The major influence on the control equation is the alternator followed by the battery and then the architecture. The symptoms you're experiencing are MOST likely a result of an overshoot transient caused by what amounts to a 'load dump' under some combination of system loads, engine rpm, alternator transfer function and battery. >I know you=92re the architect of the amazing crow >bar over voltage protection featured in our >L3RC-28 linear alternator regulator from B & C >Specialties. In talking with TJ at B&C today, >he said if the regulator sees over 32 VDC for >more than 5 milliseconds that the crow bar over >voltage will short the field circuit to trip the >CB or fuse. We=92re both wondering if using a 5A >fuse vs. a 5A CB could make a difference=85? Actually, the ov trip response is more like 50 milliseconds but it's not a strictly 'timed' function. I suspect that everything is operating as-designed but your particular combination of components and operations is giving you nuisance trips. > >Anyway, what do you think about this? It has >only happened twice. Could the field current to >drive a 100A alternator under a high load exceed >the 5A fuse limit? Should we try a 7A fuse? Is >this likely from an over-voltage condition and >if so what=92s causing it? Could it be that the >regulator isn=92t dropping the field strength fast >enough after the landing gear/hydraulic motor >stops running and causing an over voltage spike >that=92s tripping the crow bar over voltage circuit? This is not related to field current variations but simply the regulation characteristics under a load-dump situation. The 'easy' fix is to modify your regulator to extend the trip time . . . back when that product was developed, the sort of 'legacy philosophy' was to err on the short-side of trip response timing. These days, my ov protection products are configured a bit closer to Mil-Std-704 deign goals. In your 28v system, the voltage would have to remain above 32 volts for 500 milliseconds. That time interval is accurately measured in software. If the voltage drops below 32 volts any time during that 500 mS, the time resets and anohter 500 mS trip window is opened. This is well inside the 32v-for-one-second design rules for DO-160 compliance. If you would send me your regulator, I could do the mod for you. On another matter, using fuses upstream of the crowbar OVM system is not recommended. This excerpt from Z-12 Emacs! . . . shows a circuit breaker feeding the LR regulator's BUS terminal. The reason for this is based on the precise difficult you're wrestling with now . . . it's difficult (some cases impossible) to replace a nuisance tripped fuse on the OV protection system. Emacs! For other architectures where crowbar ov protection is installed in conjunction with fuse blocks, we show a FUSIBLE LINK upstream of the alternator field breaker. Modifying your regulator is probably the solution for nuisance trips . . . eliminating the ATC fuse in favor of a 5A breaker is the solution for graceful mitigation of nuisance trips. If you choose to go for the modification, coordinate it with B&C. I'll make sure they know which component needs to be swapped out for a new value. I could do the mod but they need to be on board with the process in case this situation repeat in the future. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Valin Thorn" <valin(at)starflight.aero>
Subject: Alternator Field Circuit Fuse Blow
Date: Dec 07, 2016
Thank you Bob and Joe! For some additional diagnostic data, I've looked at my Garmin G3X Touch avionics systems flight data log for the two instances where the primary alternator fuse blew. The data is at one second intervals a there's some filtering of the data going on so I can't be sure I'm seeing true one second snap shots of the voltage and current. Here's an excerpt of the data from yesterday morning's fuse blow. Note that we have a standby alternator that kicks in when the bus voltage drops below 26 VDC. I labeled where I think the fuse blows based on seeing the voltage start to drop. I know when the gear shows down and hence when the inboard doors start closing, from a discrete in the flight data not shown in this excerpt. Here's the flight data excerpt: The first fuse blow occurrence looks similar to this one except the engine rpm was around 2100 rpm and I'd also started deploying flaps (electrical) around when the doors closed. The landing gear are down just before the inboard gear doors start closing. The inboard gear door closure takes about 5 seconds as the motor cycles on and off quickly as the hydraulic system's pressure oscillates around the pressure setting of the pressure switch. Yes, I need a higher pressure setting for the switch but the one installed now is at the limit of its range and I can't find a hydraulic pressure switch that has the needed 750 psi in the middle of its range. Anyway, it seems that it's this cycling for inboard gear door closure, when it finally closes the doors, that the fuse is blowing. Bob, I expect this probably doesn't change your conclusion that we either need to change to a CB or have the crow bar over voltage circuit adjusted to not trip so quickly with high voltage transients. Thank you so much, by the way, for offering to make that adjustment! A question before deciding our path forward, since a 5A fuse is more sensitive than a 5A circuit breaker, is Joe's suggestion to go to a 7.5A fuse in this application an option that might work? Or is that only the thing to do if the problem is that our field circuit current rides close to or higher than 5A under high loads? Thanks! Valin From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2016 10:45 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Field Circuit Fuse Blow On both occasions the fuse blew on landing gear extension which seems to be the least loaded gear operation since the weight of the gear and their gas spring struts want to deploy the gear anyway - the pump can barely keep up. But, we do have a modification to our landing gear system where the inboard gear doors close after gear go down and the pump typically cycles very quickly several time while it's closing the inboard doors. For more background, we splurged on expensive hermetically sealed contactors rated for 100 A continuous for switching the hydraulic pump motor -- Tyco Kilovac EV100 relays with built in voltage suppression diodes. Building a 'fits all' version of a linear regulator is a real challenge. The regulator is but one component in a negative feedback control loop wherein EVERY part of the system has some effect on loop stability. The major influence on the control equation is the alternator followed by the battery and then the architecture. The symptoms you're experiencing are MOST likely a result of an overshoot transient caused by what amounts to a 'load dump' under some combination of system loads, engine rpm, alternator transfer function and battery. I know you're the architect of the amazing crow bar over voltage protection featured in our L3RC-28 linear alternator regulator from B & C Specialties. In talking with TJ at B&C today, he said if the regulator sees over 32 VDC for more than 5 milliseconds that the crow bar over voltage will short the field circuit to trip the CB or fuse. We're both wondering if using a 5A fuse vs. a 5A CB could make a difference.? Actually, the ov trip response is more like 50 milliseconds but it's not a strictly 'timed' function. I suspect that everything is operating as-designed but your particular combination of components and operations is giving you nuisance trips. Anyway, what do you think about this? It has only happened twice. Could the field current to drive a 100A alternator under a high load exceed the 5A fuse limit? Should we try a 7A fuse? Is this likely from an over-voltage condition and if so what's causing it? Could it be that the regulator isn't dropping the field strength fast enough after the landing gear/hydraulic motor stops running and causing an over voltage spike that's tripping the crow bar over voltage circuit? This is not related to field current variations but simply the regulation characteristics under a load-dump situation. The 'easy' fix is to modify your regulator to extend the trip time . . . back when that product was developed, the sort of 'legacy philosophy' was to err on the short-side of trip response timing. These days, my ov protection products are configured a bit closer to Mil-Std-704 deign goals. In your 28v system, the voltage would have to remain above 32 volts for 500 milliseconds. That time interval is accurately measured in software. If the voltage drops below 32 volts any time during that 500 mS, the time resets and anohter 500 mS trip window is opened. This is well inside the 32v-for-one-second design rules for DO-160 compliance. If you would send me your regulator, I could do the mod for you. On another matter, using fuses upstream of the crowbar OVM system is not recommended. This excerpt from Z-12 . . . shows a circuit breaker feeding the LR regulator's BUS terminal. The reason for this is based on the precise difficult you're wrestling with now . . . it's difficult (some cases impossible) to replace a nuisance tripped fuse on the OV protection system. For other architectures where crowbar ov protection is installed in conjunction with fuse blocks, we show a FUSIBLE LINK upstream of the alternator field breaker. Modifying your regulator is probably the solution for nuisance trips . . . eliminating the ATC fuse in favor of a 5A breaker is the solution for graceful mitigation of nuisance trips. If you choose to go for the modification, coordinate it with B&C. I'll make sure they know which component needs to be swapped out for a new value. I could do the mod but they need to be on board with the process in case this situation repeat in the future. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 07, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Alternator Field Circuit Fuse Blow
Anyway, it seems that it's this cycling for inboard gear door closure, when it finally closes the doors, that the fuse is blowing. Yes, when the pump motor shuts off and the bus voltage overshoots for a few tens of milliseconds. Bob, I expect this probably doesn't change your conclusion that we either need to change to a CB or have the crow bar over voltage circuit adjusted to not trip so quickly with high voltage transients. Thank you so much, by the way, for offering to make that adjustment! This is not an either/or . . . it's BOTH. (1) The fuse is an inconvenient source for crowbar ov protection that is INTENDED to open the source protection . . . better that it's a crew accessible breaker than a hard or impossible to get at fuse. (2) Adjusting the r/c time constant of the ov sense circuit will make the system less sensitive to the suspected transients. This is a good thing to do whether or not you change the bus-feeder protection. A question before deciding our path forward, since a 5A fuse is more sensitive than a 5A circuit breaker, is Joe's suggestion to go to a 7.5A fuse in this application an option that might work? Or is that only the thing to do if the problem is that our field circuit current rides close to or higher than 5A under high loads? Alternator field current is not what's opening the fuse. When the crowbar ov protection system operates, it throws a dead short on the bus feed line deliberately opening the breaker or fuse. If you made it a 15A fuse it would still pop when the ov protection system gets over=excited. See http://tinyurl.com/gs6csev for background . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Valin Thorn" <valin(at)starflight.aero>
Subject: Alternator Field Circuit Fuse Blow
Date: Dec 07, 2016
Thanks Bob! I'll coordinate with B & C. We have two L3RC-28 Linear Regulators (flight and spare on shelf) -- so we'll send them both in for adjustment, one at a time so the airplane stays in service. Our fuses are crew accessible in flight. The tray pulls out from the right side of the panel with all the fuse blocks facing the pilot. The Primary Alternator Field fuse is the first one. So, we'll go ahead and stay with the fuse unless there's another reason to go CB. I can't find a good photo to show how it is set up. These two photos should provide an idea. See the face plate with a little pull ring on the right side? That's the fuse tray face plate, a two foot long fuse tray slides out from there. The second photo shows the fuse tray. Thanks again, Valin From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2016 7:45 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Field Circuit Fuse Blow Anyway, it seems that it's this cycling for inboard gear door closure, when it finally closes the doors, that the fuse is blowing. Yes, when the pump motor shuts off and the bus voltage overshoots for a few tens of milliseconds. Bob, I expect this probably doesn't change your conclusion that we either need to change to a CB or have the crow bar over voltage circuit adjusted to not trip so quickly with high voltage transients. Thank you so much, by the way, for offering to make that adjustment! This is not an either/or . . . it's BOTH. (1) The fuse is an inconvenient source for crowbar ov protection that is INTENDED to open the source protection . . . better that it's a crew accessible breaker than a hard or impossible to get at fuse. (2) Adjusting the r/c time constant of the ov sense circuit will make the system less sensitive to the suspected transients. This is a good thing to do whether or not you change the bus-feeder protection. A question before deciding our path forward, since a 5A fuse is more sensitive than a 5A circuit breaker, is Joe's suggestion to go to a 7.5A fuse in this application an option that might work? Or is that only the thing to do if the problem is that our field circuit current rides close to or higher than 5A under high loads? Alternator field current is not what's opening the fuse. When the crowbar ov protection system operates, it throws a dead short on the bus feed line deliberately opening the breaker or fuse. If you made it a 15A fuse it would still pop when the ov protection system gets over=excited. See http://tinyurl.com/gs6csev for background . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 08, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Alternator Field Circuit Fuse Blow
At 10:39 PM 12/7/2016, you wrote: >Thanks Bob! I'll coordinate with B & C. We have two L3RC-28 Linear >Regulators (flight and spare on shelf) -- so we'll send them both in >for adjustment, one at a time so the airplane stays in service. Good lick . . . > >Our fuses are crew accessible in flight. The tray pulls out from >the right side of the panel with all the fuse blocks facing the >pilot. The Primary Alternator Field fuse is the first one. So, >we'll go ahead and stay with the fuse unless there's another reason >to go CB. I can't find a good photo to show how it is set >up. These two photos should provide an idea. See the face plate >with a little pull ring on the right side? That's the fuse tray >face plate, a two foot long fuse tray slides out from there. The >second photo shows the fuse tray. You guys do good work. There's an aura of meticulous craftsmanship here. But I'm a little disappointed that you spent so much $time$ on the installation of components with a vanishingly small chance of offering any in-flight utility. I would caution that fiddling with fuses, breakers, or any other failure in flight is a potential prelude for a bad day in the cockpit. When something quits working, it is either (1) REALLY necessary for comfortable termination of flight or (2) no big deal. If the appliance falls in category (1) you need a backup for it . . . a Plan B. All appliances in the airplane have MANY ways to stop working that DO NOT operate the circuit protection. FBO shops are populated with airplanes having broke gizmos, most of which did not pop a breaker -and- even if they did, resetting the breaker would not return the appliance to service. 99.999% of all breakers/fuses in airplanes/cars/ boats/garden tractors will set there for the lifetime of the machine never having been called upon to do it's singular task: keep a wire from burning. Yet, there is a nagging urge to arrange things with a notion that in-flight diagnosis and failure mitigation is a good thing to do. I've read lots of dark-n-stormy night stories in the journals . . . I've had occasion to pick through the bits and pieces of un-intended contacts with the earth. All of the accidents I've worked on or studied with electrical factors were absolutely preventable by some combination of competent processes and/or simply having a Plan-B. That's a beautiful job on the fuse panel no doubt deserving of honors for craftsmanship. But my best wish for you is that when something stops working, that fuse panel is the FURTHEST thing from your mind while you concentrate on a comfortable termination of flight. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Valin Thorn" <valin(at)starflight.aero>
Subject: Alternator Field Circuit Fuse Blow
Date: Dec 08, 2016
Thanks Bob. The entire interior of our Legacy is our own design and build with the exception of the avionics and joy stick mechanisms. It took many years of weekends. The instrument panel design and layout is ours but the fine work on the instrument panel's component installation, wiring and fuse tray was performed by Andre Todd at Aerotronics in Montana. Yes, I agree with your philosophy regarding resetting a tripped CB or fuse in flight. Even our nuisance trips of the field fuse weren't corrected until on the ground. Even though we built an EAB airplane, we figure there's a lot of wisdom in the FAR certification regulations and always tried to align with them. That's why we made the fuses accessible in flight and carry extra fuses with us in flight. "You guys do good work. There's an aura of meticulous craftsmanship here. But I'm a little disappointed that you spent so much $time$ on the installation of components with a vanishingly small chance of offering any in-flight utility." Not sure which low utility components you're referring to.? Maybe the airplane logo that lights up is one? We certainly did that in part because we think it's a cool little feature. It may not be clear that it lights up in a color to correspond to the caution and warning status - blue when no issues, yellow for cautions and red for warnings. The Garmin G3X Touch avionics systems will note on the screen when there's something out of limits - but, it's just a small little block of words on the PFD that are easy to miss. When the airplane logo changes color, one definitely can't miss it. We've actually been very happy with this feature. Other than that, our design requirements were for an IFR capable aircraft (no FIKI) with appropriate fault tolerance for critical functions. Thanks again for all you help! I'm about to call TJ at B &C to setup the LR adjustment. Valin From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2016 8:42 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Field Circuit Fuse Blow At 10:39 PM 12/7/2016, you wrote: Thanks Bob! I'll coordinate with B & C. We have two L3RC-28 Linear Regulators (flight and spare on shelf) -- so we'll send them both in for adjustment, one at a time so the airplane stays in service. Good lick . . . Our fuses are crew accessible in flight. The tray pulls out from the right side of the panel with all the fuse blocks facing the pilot. The Primary Alternator Field fuse is the first one. So, we'll go ahead and stay with the fuse unless there's another reason to go CB. I can't find a good photo to show how it is set up. These two photos should provide an idea. See the face plate with a little pull ring on the right side? That's the fuse tray face plate, a two foot long fuse tray slides out from there. The second photo shows the fuse tray. You guys do good work. There's an aura of meticulous craftsmanship here. But I'm a little disappointed that you spent so much $time$ on the installation of components with a vanishingly small chance of offering any in-flight utility. I would caution that fiddling with fuses, breakers, or any other failure in flight is a potential prelude for a bad day in the cockpit. When something quits working, it is either (1) REALLY necessary for comfortable termination of flight or (2) no big deal. If the appliance falls in category (1) you need a backup for it . . . a Plan B. All appliances in the airplane have MANY ways to stop working that DO NOT operate the circuit protection. FBO shops are populated with airplanes having broke gizmos, most of which did not pop a breaker -and- even if they did, resetting the breaker would not return the appliance to service. 99.999% of all breakers/fuses in airplanes/cars/ boats/garden tractors will set there for the lifetime of the machine never having been called upon to do it's singular task: keep a wire from burning. Yet, there is a nagging urge to arrange things with a notion that in-flight diagnosis and failure mitigation is a good thing to do. I've read lots of dark-n-stormy night stories in the journals . . . I've had occasion to pick through the bits and pieces of un-intended contacts with the earth. All of the accidents I've worked on or studied with electrical factors were absolutely preventable by some combination of competent processes and/or simply having a Plan-B. That's a beautiful job on the fuse panel no doubt deserving of honors for craftsmanship. But my best wish for you is that when something stops working, that fuse panel is the FURTHEST thing from your mind while you concentrate on a comfortable termination of flight. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 08, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Alternator Field Circuit Fuse Blow
>Even though we built an EAB airplane, we figure >there=92s a lot of wisdom in the FAR certification >regulations and always tried to align with >them. That=92s why we made the fuses accessible >in flight and carry extra fuses with us in flight. Then you've misread the FARs. Quoting from Part 23 . . . --------------------------------- Sec. 23.1357 Circuit protective devices. (a) Protective devices, such as fuses or circuit breakers, must be installed in all electrical circuits other than-- (1) Main circuits of starter motors used during starting only; and (2) Circuits in which no hazard is presented by their omission. (b) A protective device for a circuit essential to flight safety may not be used to protect any other circuit. (c) Each resettable circuit protective device ("trip free" device in which the tripping mechanism cannot be overridden by the operating control) must be designed so that-- (1) A manual operation is required to restore service after tripping; and (2) If an overload or circuit fault exists, the device will open the circuit regardless of the position of the operating control. (d) If the ability to reset a circuit breaker or replace a fuse is essential to safety in flight, that circuit breaker or fuse must be so located and identified that it can be readily reset or replaced in flight. (e) For fuses identified as replaceable in flight-- (1) There must be one spare of each rating or 50 percent spare fuses of each rating, whichever is greater; and (2) The spare fuse(s) must be readily accessible to any required pilot. ------------------------- Okay, name any appliance in your project wherein failure of that device puts the outcome of your flight in peril. Assuming you have any such appliance, then what is your Plan B for dealing with the failure of that device when it DOESN'T pop a fuse? Given that there are dozens of ways in which an appliance of any criticality can fail that doesn't pop a breaker/fuse. If the device is critical to comfortable termination of flight, then you're advised to have a Plan B for dealing with its failure. It follows then that the artfully crafted aircraft will have NO SINGLE ELECTRICAL APPLIANCE where failure to function puts the airplane at risk. Hence making circuit protection for that (or any other) appliance crew accessible serves no purpose. >=93You guys do good work. There's an aura of >meticulous craftsmanship here. But I'm a little >disappointed that you spent so much $time$ on >the installation of components with a >vanishingly small chance of offering any in-flight utility.=94 > >Not sure which low utility components you=92re referring to=85? The fuse panel . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 08, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Edge of the frontier . . .
Electric-Flight Record Heralds New Era Of Aviation Walter Extra Sets Record For Time To Climb To 3,000 Meters http://tinyurl.com/jlynhwm Walter Extra, the famous aerobatics pilot behind the Extra series of aerobatic planes, has set an FAI world record in the new field of Electric-powered planes. [] Launching from Schwarze Heide Airport near Dinslaken, Germany, on November 25, 2016 he flew a unique, battery-powered plane and climbed to 3,000m (approx. 9,842 feet) in a time of 4mins 22 seconds. In doing so, he broke the FAI world record for electric-powered planes that weigh between 500kg to 1,000kg (approx. 1,100 to 2,200 pounds). Remarkably the plane, an Extra 330LE, only made its maiden flight on June 24 of this year. That first flight was called a "technical milestone" by Siemens, the company behind the technology that powers the electric plane. "This day will change aviation," Frank Anton, head of eAircraft at Siemens, said at the time. "This is the first time that an electric aircraft in the quarter-megawatt performance class has flown." Siemens developed a new type of electric motor that weighs only 50kg (110 pounds) but delivers a continuous output of 260 kilowatts (approx. 230 horsepower) to power the Extra aerobatic plane. That is five times more than previous comparable systems. [] The new system means that hybrid-electric planes with four or more seats will now be possible. Flying the plane on its maiden flight and for the record was Walter Extra. An award-winning aerobatic pilot and chief designer and founder of Extra Flugzeugbau, a manufacturer of aerobatic aircraft, Extra gave his name to one of the most popular aerobatics aircraft in the sport. "I pour my heart, mind and soul into ensuring that each aircraft carrying my name is the very best that it can be," he has said. The development, initial flights and new world record point the way to an electric-powered future for some aircraft. The battery technology behind the Extra 330LE is scalable, and some industry figures expect to see electric-powered passenger aircraft carrying up to 100 people on short-haul routes of up to 1,000km (540nm) by 2030. In the air and without engine noise the experience is "almost silent" Extra said. Siemens said that they had partnered with Extra Flugzeugbau because aerobatics planes are "particularly well suited" to taking components to their limit, "testing them and enhancing their design". The world record belongs to the group of Electric records for Powered Airplanes with a take-off weight of 500kg to 1,000kg. (Source: FAI news release. Images provided by Siemens. Top: Frank Anton (right), who heads eAircraft within the next47 startup unit, congratulates pilot Walter Extra, who broke the world record in ascent on November 25. Bottom: Aircraft on record-breaking flight Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Valin Thorn" <valin(at)starflight.aero>
Subject: Alternator Field Circuit Fuse Blow
Date: Dec 08, 2016
Yes, the key phrase is, ".essential to safety in flight.". That phrase leaves things open to various interpretations. In my work we'd try and establish a more objective, measurable safety criteria to compare designs against. We would follow statements like "essential for safety in flight" with criteria of minimum levels of risk as broad as "Loss of Crew" and "Loss of Vehicle" and then break these down into component allocations to subsystems. Then we'd perform probabilistic risk assessments throughout the design cycles to evaluate if those risk targets were achievable with the vehicle's design. So this would at least create the illusion of some objective measure. But really, it was most useful to help see the elements in the designs that were the biggest influence in risks/safety. Could really never believe the numbers were accurate in an absolute measure. With that said, yes, all the components/appliances in our aircraft's electrical system that are critical to some flight phases have redundancy or operational mitigations that help make an good argument that none of them are essential to safety of flight. The failure of each one, though, likely results in some incremental increase in risks. Does it push it past the "essential" criteria? Is a 25% increase in risk make a function essential or is it 50% -- the FAA doesn't get that specific. And, it depends on what's going on during the flight when it occurs. If one's on a precision instrument approach in crummy weather, the probability of a successful approach and landing is higher with all normal systems available and operating. If I felt like I really needed a function/component for what was going on in a flight, I'd probably try and replace a blown fuse once in flight. So, I agree with you that a strong case can be made for not requiring accessibility in flight for CBs and fuses. I think this design decision was probably influenced by knowing that CBs are usually accessible and in taking the unusual aviation approach of using fuses, I wanted to at least preserve that aspect. It sure would have been easier to mount the fuse blocks on the avionics shelf than to make a deployable tray! Thanks for your penetrating discussion on this! Valin From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2016 12:11 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Field Circuit Fuse Blow Even though we built an EAB airplane, we figure there's a lot of wisdom in the FAR certification regulations and always tried to align with them. That's why we made the fuses accessible in flight and carry extra fuses with us in flight. Then you've misread the FARs. Quoting from Part 23 . . . --------------------------------- Sec. 23.1357 Circuit protective devices. (a) Protective devices, such as fuses or circuit breakers, must be installed in all electrical circuits other than-- (1) Main circuits of starter motors used during starting only; and (2) Circuits in which no hazard is presented by their omission. (b) A protective device for a circuit essential to flight safety may not be used to protect any other circuit. (c) Each resettable circuit protective device ("trip free" device in which the tripping mechanism cannot be overridden by the operating control) must be designed so that-- (1) A manual operation is required to restore service after tripping; and (2) If an overload or circuit fault exists, the device will open the circuit regardless of the position of the operating control. (d) If the ability to reset a circuit breaker or replace a fuse is essential to safety in flight, that circuit breaker or fuse must be so located and identified that it can be readily reset or replaced in flight. (e) For fuses identified as replaceable in flight-- (1) There must be one spare of each rating or 50 percent spare fuses of each rating, whichever is greater; and (2) The spare fuse(s) must be readily accessible to any required pilot. ------------------------- Okay, name any appliance in your project wherein failure of that device puts the outcome of your flight in peril. Assuming you have any such appliance, then what is your Plan B for dealing with the failure of that device when it DOESN'T pop a fuse? Given that there are dozens of ways in which an appliance of any criticality can fail that doesn't pop a breaker/fuse. If the device is critical to comfortable termination of flight, then you're advised to have a Plan B for dealing with its failure. It follows then that the artfully crafted aircraft will have NO SINGLE ELECTRICAL APPLIANCE where failure to function puts the airplane at risk. Hence making circuit protection for that (or any other) appliance crew accessible serves no purpose. "You guys do good work. There's an aura of meticulous craftsmanship here. But I'm a little disappointed that you spent so much $time$ on the installation of components with a vanishingly small chance of offering any in-flight utility." Not sure which low utility components you're referring to.? The fuse panel . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 08, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Audio Isolation Amplifier Boards
I've had a number of folks express and interst in acquiring the boards to the DIY audio Isolation amplifier. Interested purchases can be made from our website at: http://tinyurl.com/cgr42l5 Put your order details in the Commends/Special Rquests box at the bottom of the form. The boards are $22 ea plus first class postage of $2.25 I'll plan on ordering boards on Monday . . . Assembly instructions for this project are available at: http://tinyurl.com/ngoo6hc Emacs! Perhaps the better term is 'unpopulated'. It looks like this when you're done. Emacs! Bob . . . No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - <http://www.avg.com>www.avg.com Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 08, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Alternator Field Circuit Fuse Blow
With that said, yes, all the components/appliances in our aircraft's electrical system that are critical to some flight phases have redundancy or operational mitigations that help make an good argument that none of them are essential to safety of flight. The failure of each one, though, likely results in some incremental increase in risks. What is the probability of loss for primary system and it's Plan-B alternative in any single tank of fuel? FMEA doesn't deal with increments . . . you either got it or you don't. Does it push it past the "essential" criteria? Is a 25% increase in risk make a function essential or is it 50% -- the FAA doesn't get that specific. And, it depends on what's going on during the flight when it occurs. If one's on a precision instrument approach in crummy weather, the probability of a successful approach and landing is higher with all normal systems available and operating. If I felt like I really needed a function/component for what was going on in a flight, I'd probably try and replace a blown fuse once in flight. FMEA doesn't care about probabilities and flight conditions are irrelevant. If you have any devic ever critical to comfortable completion of flight, then you're well advised to have a back-up for it. In 850+ hours of flying rental airplanes, I've NEVER perceived an elevated level of risk for not having dug through the maintenance logs of the machines I've rented . . . because I was prepared to continue flight to airport of intended destination with a completely dark panel if necessary . . . not searching for the nearest piece of smooth pavement with a 200psi pucker-factor. The foundation on which all the z-figures are crafted encourages every builder to establish their own minimum equipment list for the most demanding use of the airplane. Then conduct an FMEA while avoiding worrisome and largely irrelevant reliability studies . . . assume that every piece of stuff you bolt to the airplane WILL fail at some point in time . . . then DESIGN IN failure tolerance. So, I agree with you that a strong case can be made for not requiring accessibility in flight for CBs and fuses. I think this design decision was probably influenced by knowing that CBs are usually accessible and in taking the unusual aviation approach of using fuses. But they are NOT all accessible. There are breakers and fuses all over biz jets that crew cannot reach. Heavy iron pilots are generally not allowed to reset ANY breaker (rarely allowed a single reset on some systems) but the foundation for EVERY system powered by ANY breaker stands on a Plan-B. It sure would have been easier to mount the fuse blocks on the avionics shelf than to make a deployable tray! My point exactly and a philosophy I have taught for decades. In dozens of similar discussions dating back to the AVSIG forum on Compuserve I have encouraged builders to craft a FAILURE TOLERANT airplane wherein no single appliance can deprive you of a comfortable termination of flight. The way I used rental aircraft (day/night VFR with occasional punch through for VFR over the top) this compliment of back-ups would let me fly with confidence whether the panel was lit up or not http://tinyurl.com/zqb4f3q While I was flying off a little airport Dee and I owned about 1989, I crafted some GPS aided approaches to our little chunk of asphalt using dual GPS315 handhelds. I demonstrated an ability to reliably acquire the approach environment under circling minimums . . . with radios totaling $300 and carried in my flight bag. It required preparation and planning with understanding of limits . . . but it wasn't difficult. Designing a failure tolerant electrical and instrumentation system isn't difficult either . . . made easier still when panel space used by breakers/fuses is freed up for electro-whizzies that DO something useful. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 10, 2016
From: Linda Walker <l.p(at)talk21.com>
Subject: Suggested tool for stripping plug leads
I have a request for the forum to suggest a suitable tool for the following please: I am re-wiring the spark plug leads in the cap of a Slick magneto. The wire has a thin silicone-like sheath around a braided shield. Next, the insulator is not quite like that found in a RG400 coax cable for instance. The core is stranded wire. The rquirements are to trim the cable to the following approximate lengths; shield .4" and the insulator .7" with the core a further .2". I have tried a Radioshack coax stripper but this did not work well. Any other suggestions very welcome. Thanks. Patrick Elliott ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 10, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Suggested tool for stripping plug leads
At 03:44 AM 12/10/2016, you wrote: > > >I have a request for the forum to suggest a suitable tool for the >following please: > >I am re-wiring the spark plug leads in the cap of a Slick magneto. > >The wire has a thin silicone-like sheath around a braided shield. >Next, the insulator is not quite like that found in a RG400 coax >cable for instance. >The core is stranded wire. > >The rquirements are to trim the cable to the following approximate >lengths; shield .4" and the insulator .7" with the core a further .2". >I have tried a Radioshack coax stripper but this did not work well. > >Any other suggestions very welcome. >Thanks. >Patrick Elliott How many of these do you need to do? There MIGHT be 3-blade strippers like those used for coax Emacs! These feature adjustments on depth of cut but the spacing between the blades is fixed and unique to the mating connectors. Unless you have a lot of these wires to strip, you would probably do well to practice making your cuts with an Xacto knife on some scraps of wire. A websearch on spark plug wire strippers yielded some results . . . [] This tool offered by MSD has a blade guide for manual stripping and also crimps the bear-hug grips on terminals. I also found what appears to be an adjustable 2-blade tool. Suggest you explore local auto-parts stores especially speed-shops that cater to the more adventuresome DIYers. [] Emacs! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: E-Bus Fuse - Advisable?
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 10, 2016
There has been a recent discussion on VansAirforce questioning whether or not the E-Bus should be fused. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=144607 In that thread, I stated that if two fuses or breakers are connected in series, a hard short circuit can blow both simultaneously, even if one of them is much larger than the other. Someone questioned whether that is actually true. What do you think? In Z-11, both the E-Bus feeder and the Nav/Com are protected by 7 amp fuses. If there is a hard short in the Nav/Com circuit, which of the two fuses in series will blow? Perhaps the E-Bus feeder fuse should be replaced by a relay located near the source (battery). The same logic used for main power bus can be applied to the E-Bus. Good workmanship, double insulation, the ability to shut off the power at its source, and the need for reliable electrical power, are all factors that suggest that an E-Bus fuse might not be required. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=463820#463820 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 10, 2016
Subject: Re: E-Bus Fuse - Advisable?
On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 9:57 AM, user9253 wrote: > > There has been a recent discussion on VansAirforce questioning whether or > not the E-Bus should be fused. > http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=144607 > In that thread, I stated that if two fuses or breakers are connected in > series, a hard short circuit can blow both simultaneously, even if one of > them is much larger than the other. Someone questioned whether that is > actually true. > What do you think? > In Z-11, both the E-Bus feeder and the Nav/Com are protected by 7 amp > fuses. If there is a hard short in the Nav/Com circuit, which of the two > fuses in series will blow? > Perhaps the E-Bus feeder fuse should be replaced by a relay located near > the source (battery). The same logic used for main power bus can be > applied to the E-Bus. Good workmanship, double insulation, the ability to > shut off the power at its source, and the need for reliable electrical > power, are all factors that suggest that an E-Bus fuse might not be > required. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Hi Joe, I posted to that thread, as well. My 'must have' stuff (electrically dependent engine, etc) is on a bus powered from the battery terminal through a fusible link & hi current switch, with an alternate switched path off the 'main' bus, which is controlled via the regular master contactor. As I mentioned on VAF, I never noticed that fuse feeding the endurance bus in the drawing. I'd have to agree that two 7A fuses in series could result in either blowing. In that exact setup, it seems more likely that the bus supply fuse would go 1st, since there are additional loads besides the radio on the bus feeder fuse. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 10, 2016
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: E-Bus Fuse - Advisable?


October 12, 2016 - December 11, 2016

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