AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-of
January 07, 2018 - March 07, 2018
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l&Chapter 18-01-03&Archive=AeroElectric
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EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
========================
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AeroElectric-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Wed 01/03/18: 12
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:42 AM - Re: Re: Simplest way for a go/no-go 2-Stroke Engine Temp
erature Ind (Bob Verwey)
2. 07:27 AM - Re: Simplest way for a go/no-go 2-Stroke Engine Temperat
ure Ind (user9253)
3. 07:48 AM - Re: Re: Simplest way for a go/no-go 2-Stroke Engine Temp
erature Ind (C&K)
4. 08:47 AM - Re: Simplest way for a go/no-go 2-Stroke Engine Temperat
ure Ind (user9253)
5. 08:56 AM - Re: Tech Edge "MODA" Fuel Level Probe (Robert L. Nucko
lls, III)
6. 09:38 AM - Re: Re: Simplest way for a go/no-go 2-Stroke Engine Temp
erature Ind (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 09:38 AM - Re: Tech Edge "MODA" Fuel Level Probe (addendum) (Rober
t L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 10:58 AM - Re: Tech Edge "MODA" Fuel Level Probe ()
9. 11:49 AM - Re: Tech Edge "MODA" Fuel Level Probe (Rene)
10. 12:13 PM - Re: Tech Edge "MODA" Fuel Level Probe (addendum) (Chris
topher Cee Stone)
11. 06:05 PM - Re: Tech Edge "MODA" Fuel Level Probe (addendum) (Willi
am Hunter)
12. 07:18 PM - Re: Tech Edge "MODA" Fuel Level Probe (addendum) (Bill
Maxwell)
________________________________ Message 1 ______________________________
_______
| From: | Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Simplest way for a go/no-go 2-Stroke E |
ngine
Temperature Ind
Joe is the operating voltage not an issue?
On 02 Jan 2018 8:33 PM, "user9253" wrote:
>
> Perhaps some kind of temperature switch would work?
> https://www.omega.com/pptst/TSW-TT.html
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477017#477017
>
>
________________________________ Message 2 ______________________________
_______
| Subject: | Re: Simplest way for a go/no-go 2-Stroke Engine |
Temperature
Ind
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
No, the operating voltage is not a concern. The switch is rated for 2 amps
at
24 VDC. That probably equates to 3 or 4 amps at 12 volts. If an indicator
lamp
is chosen that uses less than 1 amp, it should be fine. The switch is avai
lable
as either normally open or normally closed. There is a 50-50 chance of
getting it right. The original poster probably wants the normally closed s
witch.
Another concern is selecting the correct operating temperature. And there
is the life expectancy issue when subject to the vibration of a 2 cycle eng
ine.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477046#477046
________________________________ Message 3 ______________________________
_______
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Simplest way for a go/no-go 2-Stroke E
ngine
Temperature Ind
From: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com>
A tiny keychain size infra red thermometers for $12. might be more
useful and less trouble to set up.
No calibration issues and fairly vibration resistant.
Remote mounting of the display might be possible.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-Digital-Non-Contact-IR-Infrared-LCD-Thermomet
er-DT-300-Black-UD6-LD/161818543747?hash=item25ad230683:g:SbkAAOSw0JpV7Yx
U
Ken
________________________________ Message 4 ______________________________
_______
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Simplest way for a go/no-go 2-Stroke Engine
Temperature
Ind
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Is it feasible to mount the infrared red thermometer, suggested by YellowDu
ck,
inside of the cockpit and use a fiber optic cable to transmit the engine he
at
through the firewall to the thermometer?
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477049#477049
________________________________ Message 5 ______________________________
_______
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tech Edge "MODA" Fuel Level Probe
At 11:01 AM 1/2/2018, you wrote:
>
>
>Hi All,
>
>I've been working like crazy on my project and am getting ready to fly soo
n!!!
>
>One obstacle (among many) is a solution to my header tank fuel level
>sensor. I have a 5 gallon fiberglass header tank that the two wing
>tanks gravity flow into and then the engine uses this header tank as
>its sole source of fuel so it is good to know if this header tank is
>full. It had an ON/OFF float switch however that switch is no
>longer working and I tried to unscrew the float switch to replace it
>however it is so tight that I am worried the plastic body/hex nut
>will break off so it is best at this point to just leave it
>installed as a "plug" and pursue another solution.
>
>Has anyone used a MODA tank sensor kit from tankedge.com ?
>
>https://tankedge.com/accessories.html
>
>It is a sensor that attaches to the outside of a fiberglass tank
>with dual parallel strips of aluminum and copper tape. Somehow it
>measures the resistance between the two strips and determines the
>fuel quantity on the other side of the tank wall.
This is probably an adaptation of the 'capacity
sensor' widely used on touch pads for manual controll
inputs. It senses a change in capacity. The two
electrodes attached to the outside of the tank form
a capacitor in which the dielectric is composed of
tank material and air.
When fuel fills up the air space, the capacitance
goes up sharply and the electronics senses this. For
metal tanks, they need to penetrate the tank wall
to get at the change in air-to-fuel capacitance.
Bob . . .
________________________________ Message 6 ______________________________
_______
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Simplest way for a go/no-go 2-Stroke
Engine
Temperature Ind
At 08:39 PM 1/2/2018, you wrote:
>
>
>On 1/2/2018 12:26 PM, user9253 wrote:
>>
>>Perhaps some kind of temperature switch would work?
>>https://www.omega.com/pptst/TSW-TT.html
>>
>>--------
>>Joe Gores
>I like Joe's find. Still have to watch the max temp, though.
Another option uses the Analog Devices thermocouple
conditioners in a on-off switching mode.
https://goo.gl/7ufeaL
Here's a simplified schematic . . .
Emacs!
Instead of driving a heater control relay, one could
drive an LED indicator light directly from the
signal conditioner's output . . .
This would let you connect directly to the cylinder
head with appropriate thermocouple material.
Bob . . .
________________________________ Message 7 ______________________________
_______
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tech Edge "MODA" Fuel Level Probe (addend
um)
>>It is a sensor that attaches to the outside of a fiberglass tank
>>with dual parallel strips of aluminum and copper tape. Somehow it
>>measures the resistance between the two strips and determines the
>>fuel quantity on the other side of the tank wall.
>
> This is probably an adaptation of the 'capacity
> sensor' widely used on touch pads for manual controll
> inputs. It senses a change in capacity. The two
> electrodes attached to the outside of the tank form
> a capacitor in which the dielectric is composed of
> tank material and air.
>
> When fuel fills up the air space, the capacitance
> goes up sharply and the electronics senses this. For
> metal tanks, they need to penetrate the tank wall
> to get at the change in air-to-fuel capacitance.
Okay, looking closer reveals that this is a
capacity fuel gaging system, not just a level
sensor. There is a whole new class of liquid level
capacity transducer products out there.
Recent developments in resolving capacity has
spawned a variety of low cost instruments that
will measure capacitance with good accuracy
down into the picoFarads territory.
There's a pretty simple methodology for using
pic/arduino DIY processors to implement your own
capacity liquid level measurement system wherein
the sensor is nothing more than a twisted pair of
wires with insulation impervious to the liquid being
sensed.
For the product cited above, the sensor is either
copper foil electrodes on the outside of the plastic
tank . . . or some analog built into the
probe.
This could be paired with a comparator that drives
a 'tank full' indicator light.
Bob . . .
________________________________ Message 8 ______________________________
_______
From: <jim(at)PoogieBearRanch.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Tech Edge "MODA" Fuel Level Probe
How about using this:
http://www.beliteaircraftstore.com/bingo-liquid-detector/
It was designed for this exact purchase, and Jim Wiebe (designer/owner)
created it to indicate when a specific "bingo" (low fuel) level occurred
in header tanks and in-wing fuel tanks, as a backup to the fuel gauges.
(He has some pretty terrific fuel level sensors, as well for the
experimental crowd.)
You install this detector at whatever level in the fuel tank you choose,
and it alerts you when the liquid level drops below that point. The LED
indicator is normally green when the level is above the "bingo" level,
and if/when it drops below that point, it flashes red for 10 seconds,
then goes solid red.
Installation seems dirt simple, and it seems to work with just about any
liquid. There's a video demonstrating it on that page also. Currently
on sale for $69.95.
Jim Parker
________________________________ Message 9 ______________________________
_______
From: "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Tech Edge "MODA" Fuel Level Probe
I have a system similar to that in my RV-10. 1 in each tank at the 3 gallo
n level.
Only really use it when I want to run a tank dry. If the tank sloshes,
then I do get some false alarms when it is bumpy. I use my float gages to
alarm
at 5 gallons left.
Rene'
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr
ic-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jim(at)PoogieBearRanch.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2018 11:58 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Tech Edge "MODA" Fuel Level Probe
How about using this:
http://www.beliteaircraftstore.com/bingo-liquid-detector/
It was designed for this exact purchase, and Jim Wiebe (designer/owner) cre
ated
it to indicate when a specific "bingo" (low fuel) level occurred in header
tanks
and in-wing fuel tanks, as a backup to the fuel gauges.
(He has some pretty terrific fuel level sensors, as well for the experiment
al crowd.)
You install this detector at whatever level in the fuel tank you choose, an
d it
alerts you when the liquid level drops below that point. The LED indicator
is
normally green when the level is above the "bingo" level, and if/when it dr
ops
below that point, it flashes red for 10 seconds, then goes solid red.
Installation seems dirt simple, and it seems to work with just about any li
quid.
There's a video demonstrating it on that page also. Currently on sale for
$69.95.
Jim Parker
________________________________ Message 10 _____________________________
_______
From: Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tech Edge "MODA" Fuel Level Probe (addendum
)
Texas Instruments has a chip level solution for liquid level sensing by
capacitive sense:
http://www.ti.com/general/docs/video/watch.tsp?entryid=4279163138001
-chris stone
On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 9:15 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> It is a sensor that attaches to the outside of a fiberglass tank with dua
l
> parallel strips of aluminum and copper tape. Somehow it measures the
> resistance between the two strips and determines the fuel quantity on the
> other side of the tank wall.
>
>
> This is probably an adaptation of the 'capacity
> sensor' widely used on touch pads for manual controll
> inputs. It senses a change in capacity. The two
> electrodes attached to the outside of the tank form
> a capacitor in which the dielectric is composed of
> tank material and air.
>
> When fuel fills up the air space, the capacitance
> goes up sharply and the electronics senses this. For
> metal tanks, they need to penetrate the tank wall
> to get at the change in air-to-fuel capacitance.
>
>
> Okay, looking closer reveals that this is a
> capacity fuel gaging system, not just a level
> sensor. There is a whole new class of liquid level
> capacity transducer products out there.
>
> Recent developments in resolving capacity has
> spawned a variety of low cost instruments that
> will measure capacitance with good accuracy
> down into the picoFarads territory.
>
> There's a pretty simple methodology for using
> pic/arduino DIY processors to implement your own
> capacity liquid level measurement system wherein
> the sensor is nothing more than a twisted pair of
> wires with insulation impervious to the liquid being
> sensed.
>
> For the product cited above, the sensor is either
> copper foil electrodes on the outside of the plastic
> tank . . . or some analog built into the
> probe.
>
> This could be paired with a comparator that drives
> a 'tank full' indicator light.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________ Message 11 _____________________________
_______
From: "William Hunter" <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Tech Edge "MODA" Fuel Level Probe (addendum
)
Thanks all for your help!!!
Good information.
..
Cheers!!!
Bill Hunter
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Christopher Cee Stone
Sent: Wednesday, January 3, 2018 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tech Edge "MODA" Fuel Level Probe
(addendum)
Texas Instruments has a chip level solution for liquid level sensing by
capacitive sense:
http://www.ti.com/general/docs/video/watch.tsp?entryid=4279163138001
-chris stone
On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 9:15 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
>
wrote:
It is a sensor that attaches to the outside of a fiberglass tank with
dual parallel strips of aluminum and copper tape. Somehow it measures
the resistance between the two strips and determines the fuel quantity
on the other side of the tank wall.
This is probably an adaptation of the 'capacity
sensor' widely used on touch pads for manual controll
inputs. It senses a change in capacity. The two
electrodes attached to the outside of the tank form
a capacitor in which the dielectric is composed of
tank material and air.
When fuel fills up the air space, the capacitance
goes up sharply and the electronics senses this. For
metal tanks, they need to penetrate the tank wall
to get at the change in air-to-fuel capacitance.
Okay, looking closer reveals that this is a
capacity fuel gaging system, not just a level
sensor. There is a whole new class of liquid level
capacity transducer products out there.
Recent developments in resolving capacity has
spawned a variety of low cost instruments that
will measure capacitance with good accuracy
down into the picoFarads territory.
There's a pretty simple methodology for using
pic/arduino DIY processors to implement your own
capacity liquid level measurement system wherein
the sensor is nothing more than a twisted pair of
wires with insulation impervious to the liquid being
sensed.
For the product cited above, the sensor is either
copper foil electrodes on the outside of the plastic
tank . . . or some analog built into the
probe.
This could be paired with a comparator that drives
a 'tank full' indicator light.
Bob . . .
________________________________ Message 12 _____________________________
_______
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tech Edge "MODA" Fuel Level Probe (addendum
)
From: Bill Maxwell <wrmaxwell(at)bigpond.com>
Interesting device. I wonder though whether a metal tank's contents can
be measured as effectively by this device when mounted externally?
On 4/01/2018 7:12 AM, Christopher Cee Stone wrote:
> Texas Instruments has a chip level solution for liquid level sensing
> by capacitive sense:
>
> http://www.ti.com/general/docs/video/watch.tsp?entryid=4279163138001
>
> -chris stone
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 9:15 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> >
> wrote:
>
>>> It is a sensor that attaches to the outside of a fiberglass tank
>>> with dual parallel strips of aluminum and copper tape. Somehow
>>> it measures the resistance between the two strips and determines
>>> the fuel quantity on the other side of the tank wall.
>>
>> This is probably an adaptation of the 'capacity
>> sensor' widely used on touch pads for manual controll
>> inputs. It senses a change in capacity. The two
>> electrodes attached to the outside of the tank form
>> a capacitor in which the dielectric is composed of
>> tank material and air.
>>
>> When fuel fills up the air space, the capacitance
>> goes up sharply and the electronics senses this. For
>> metal tanks, they need to penetrate the tank wall
>> to get at the change in air-to-fuel capacitance.
>
> Okay, looking closer reveals that this is a
> capacity fuel gaging system, not just a level
> sensor. There is a whole new class of liquid level
> capacity transducer products out there.
>
> Recent developments in resolving capacity has
> spawned a variety of low cost instruments that
> will measure capacitance with good accuracy
> down into the picoFarads territory.
>
> There's a pretty simple methodology for using
> pic/arduino DIY processors to implement your own
> capacity liquid level measurement system wherein
> the sensor is nothing more than a twisted pair of
> wires with insulation impervious to the liquid being
> sensed.
>
> For the product cited above, the sensor is either
> copper foil electrodes on the outside of the plastic
> tank . . . or some analog built into the
> probe.
>
> This could be paired with a comparator that drives
> a 'tank full' indicator light.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EFIS/EMS Brownout/Reboot: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=9CVoltage?= |
Slump =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Eliminator=9D?
| From: | "Airdog77" <Airdog77(at)gmail.com> |
Joe,
I concur with you on Eric's Deslumpifier! Excellent workmanship... thanks Eric!
I also noted output voltage in the same ballpark as input voltage. I've already
installed it and tested out Phase I which is normal battery ops on the bench
with power to my GNS480 via the Deslumpifier. And it's working like a champ
so far. Of course Phase II testing will come much later (hopefully this year!)
when I start my engine with the GNS480 powered up.
I'm especially glad you recommended that I press forward with this design, Joe.
I'm hopefully optimistic that my turbo'd version will work for the GNS480.
I've included a pic of my quasi-installed Deslumpifier (the "UG" is part of a code
I use for component ID in my wire labels).
And yes, although it's 8 deg F, I'm very happy with this device! :D
Wade
--------
Airdog
Wade Parton
Building Long-EZ N916WP
www.longezpush.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477147#477147
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/deslumpifier1_597.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sheldon Olesen <saolesen(at)sirentel.net> |
| Subject: | Thanks for the 480 help |
Thanks to all who replied to my recent post on the 480-Navworx problem. While
I dont have the problem solved as yet, the information provided by all the Listers
was helpful in getting me pointed in the right direction. Before I get back
to problem solving, I need to go out and fly since flying activity around
here has been limited by subzero cold for at least 2-3 weeks and my annual inspection.
Sheldon Olesen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Thanks for the 480 help |
We're here for you - fly safe!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sheldon Olesen
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2018 1:04 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Thanks for the 480 help
-->
Thanks to all who replied to my recent post on the 480-Navworx problem. While
I dont have the problem solved as yet, the information provided by all the Listers
was helpful in getting me pointed in the right direction. Before I get back
to problem solving, I need to go out and fly since flying activity around
here has been limited by subzero cold for at least 2-3 weeks and my annual inspection.
Sheldon Olesen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Thanks for the 480 help |
We're here for you - fly safe!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sheldon Olesen
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2018 1:04 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Thanks for the 480 help
-->
Thanks to all who replied to my recent post on the 480-Navworx problem. While
I dont have the problem solved as yet, the information provided by all the Listers
was helpful in getting me pointed in the right direction. Before I get back
to problem solving, I need to go out and fly since flying activity around
here has been limited by subzero cold for at least 2-3 weeks and my annual inspection.
Sheldon Olesen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 01/03/18 |
At 05:21 PM 1/6/2018, you wrote:
>Please remove me from your email list.thank you.
>
>Get Outlook for Android
You are subscribed to a number of forums on Matronics.
Don't know if you're asking to be unsubscribed to one,
a few or all. Go to
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
where you can manage the details of your request
personally.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alarm souder with multiple sources |
| From: | "andymeyer" <meyerkc135(at)gmail.com> |
Maybe a bit late, but...
Lots of options and how smart you want this to be.
Cheap and easy way if you know a bit of C might be an Arduino... Depends on your
input voltages and what IO you need...
It can turn on a bi-color LED - RED for bad stuff, yellow for alerts...
Even do voice messages with the addition of an appropriate wav module...
What do your inputs look like and what outputs do you need? (Voice, 1 LED, multiple
LED's?)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477181#477181
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Engine Sensors to Arduino... |
| From: | "andymeyer" <meyerkc135(at)gmail.com> |
Great call on the LM235 degree K sensor... I'll be using that on the front module
for the air data computer side of this thing. Can't the ground for an LM35
just be biased up a volt or so to get the negative temperatures if the voltage
conversion accounts for that 1 volt?
I spent some time looking over the DAS system... Nice setup - thank you for the
education seeing how these are really designed... I've got a EE degree from 20
years ago, but never got into circuit design. Always a development guy... Sensors
and mechanical integration of the electronics, along with calibration and
engine tuning. Now I'm getting into some fun circuit design and trying to relearn.
On 3.3V vs 5V... My module driving my display is a Teensy 3.6 - should be able
to grunt the display and ADC computations along plenty fast - 3.3V. For the engine
side module, I have used a bunch of the SAMD21 Arduino boards so I've kind
of stuck there. Using RS485 so I know I can use 5V in the engine compartment,
but... (TTWWADI - I know...)
Failure analysis... It won't be anything more mission critical than oil pressure...
I can hear RPM... Everything else is bonus data from where I am today. As
far as failure of this system affecting the rest of the airplane - pull the breaker
and shut it down.
Probably not exceeding physiological perception latency... I'm gonna have to remember
that one. My CGR30P's in the other airplane record at 3Hz. Data gathered
will be written to SD card... Probably won't store more than 10 hours of data,
Estimating 3-5 MB an hour so pretty easy on GB class SD cards.
Analyzing data... I do this with my CGR30's and dump it either into Excel or process
it with a chunk of C code to grab what I need and get what I'm trying to
learn that day / week / month / airplane.
I already display the MP and Timing on a 3.5 digit panel meter - want to get rid
of that. Filters pretty smooth. Planning on light filtering in HW to clean things
up and help the AD's out, then use SW filtering to get where I need to be.
Both are really cheap and good in their own ways.
Getting closer on the circuits via my re-education in electronics... Open for any
other thoughts or improvements... Anything I'm doing grossly wrong, or could
easily improve.
Planning on setting the ARef to 1.1V on the Ardunio. I think I have my voltage
dividers and filters about right. I have the 10V, 1.5ms RPM signal coming in -
I think the circuit I've put together will work for the digital Arduino input
- interrupt SW works, but I haven't tested this circuit against it. Fuel Press
and Oil Temp are the Westach 387-100 KV and 387-30 KV 0.5V to 4.5V sensors.
EOT is a Westach sensor as well 2190 ohms at 90F (about as low as I need to measure)
and 212 ohms at 212F. How can I improve the resolution at high temp without
giving up the range at the bottom end?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477191#477191
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/untitled2_169.png
http://forums.matronics.com//files/untitled1_120.png
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition spark advance signal boost |
| From: | "Airdog77" <Airdog77(at)gmail.com> |
Hi All,
Quick question on hooking up the AD626 op amp board that Eric is so graciously
constructing for me.
I spliced a 22AWG ground wire to the main electronic ignition unit ground wire
about 4-5" where it exits the case. My question pertains to the fact that the
ground wire exiting the case is massive, about 12-14 AWG, so I'm thinking there's
a good bit of juice transiting that wire.
So, in splicing in my 22AWG AD626 wire (for V IN-) should I use a protective resistor
or diode on it before attaching to the AD626?
Yes, I'm still learning a lot of this stuff and would like not to be the one to
fry up a nice piece of work of Eric's! :?
Thanks,
Wade
--------
Airdog
Wade Parton
Building Long-EZ N916WP
www.longezpush.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477192#477192
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition spark advance signal boost |
CORRECTION
| From: | "Airdog77" <Airdog77(at)gmail.com> |
Bob,
I missed this post earlier and noted your comment Re. this corrected diagram in
the other thread.
I'm hoping 4-5" from the case is close enough to tie into the ground wire for pin
1 input? As I mention in the other thread, for some reason the ground wire
on this unit is massive, around 12-14AWG.
Thanks,
Wade
--------
Airdog
Wade Parton
Building Long-EZ N916WP
www.longezpush.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477193#477193
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition spark advance signal |
boost CORRECTION
At 07:38 PM 1/8/2018, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>
>I missed this post earlier and noted your comment Re. this corrected
>diagram in the other thread.
>
>I'm hoping 4-5" from the case is close enough to tie into the ground
>wire for pin 1 input? As I mention in the other thread, for some
>reason the ground wire on this unit is massive, around 12-14AWG.
Exactly what parameter is being conditioned by
the AD626?
The is a DIFFERENTIAL amplifier which offers
a larger image of the voltage presented to the
two inputs IRRESPECTIVE of the common mode
voltages. For example, you can tie the inputs
of the AD626 to the two terminals of an alternator
b-lead shunt that may be 28 volts or more ABOVE
ground and endowed with lots of trashy noise . . .
while seeking to amplify a 0-50 MILLIVOLT signal
across the shunt up to a 0-5 VOLT signal for
interpretation by the data acquisition system.
This means that where ever the (+) input of
the amplifier is tied, the (-) input is VERY
CLOSE BY. What ever the (+) input sees in terms
of voltages to be ignored, the (-) input must
see the SAME NOISE.
Can you scan a sketch of what you're attempting
to resolve with respect to wiring? What's the
sensor, where's it located, what excites
the sensor?
In all my many experiences with the AD626 and
cousins, the DISTANCE between points sampled
by the two inputs has never been more than inches
apart and usually millimeters apart conducted
to the amplifier on twisted pair of wires.
One such application had the AD626 looking at
a strain gage embedded in the core of a pitch
trim actuator attach bolt. I needed to resolve
MICROVOLTS of signal from 5 VOLTS of common
mode at the end of about 40 feet of twisted
pair that traversed the noisiest environs on
the aircraft.
This is a really capable device but unless
applied with understanding, the results will
disappoint. I'm unable to offer a considered
answer to your question without knowing more
about the physical layout of the system components.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Lithium: State of the technology |
A friend just sent me an interesting assessment
of the state of the technology for lithium batteries,
the 2018 edition. You can find this document at . . .
https://goo.gl/tD7VdQ
. . . don't have time right now to sift the details
but many of you have an interest in such things . . .
thought I would get it posted for access as your
interest dictates.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Interesting Product Alert |
There's a family of digital laser distance
measuring tools out there. Unlike the ultrasonic
range meters these instruments take a reading
on reflected light from the laser dot.
They're offered with a variety of built in
calculators for area and volume. Bought
one of the least expensive examples here:
https://goo.gl/d6Xmre
I bought the one with 80 meter range for ~30
dollars. The 40m range is only 16 dollars and
mailed to you from the US.
In the "inch" measurement mode, I supported
the device on my desk and measured distance to
the ceiling tiles . . . the white surface
was repeatedly reported at 65.629" A measurement
to the bottom of a decorative depression in the tiles
repeated at 65.747". From this I conclude that
the depression measured was about 0.020" deep.
I'll be using this to help level up some structure
on a friend's implement shed without having
to stand on any ladders, etc. Will report
any disappointments/amazements as they present . . .
when the weather gets warmer!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Interesting Product Alert |
>In the "inch" measurement mode, I supported
>the device on my desk and measured distance to
>the ceiling tiles . . . the white surface
>was repeatedly reported at 65.629" A measurement
>to the bottom of a decorative depression in the tiles
>repeated at 65.747". From this I conclude that
>the depression measured was about 0.020" deep.
I failed to point out that the above experiment was
a demonstration of resolution and repeatability,
not of accuracy. The specified accuracy of my
particular device is +/-2 mM or +/-0.078 inches.
Still, pretty impressive in terms of slicing beams
of light into millimeter chunks . . . ain't 'lectronics
wunderful?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Interesting Product Alert |
What is the angle measurement it mentions? Does it work as an inclenometer
as well?
On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 4:51 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> In the "inch" measurement mode, I supported
> the device on my desk and measured distance to
> the ceiling tiles . . . the white surface
> was repeatedly reported at 65.629" A measurement
> to the bottom of a decorative depression in the tiles
> repeated at 65.747". From this I conclude that
> the depression measured was about 0.020" deep.
>
>
> I failed to point out that the above experiment was
> a demonstration of resolution and repeatability,
> not of accuracy. The specified accuracy of my
> particular device is +/-2 mM or +/-0.078 inches.
>
> Still, pretty impressive in terms of slicing beams
> of light into millimeter chunks . . . ain't 'lectronics
> wunderful?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition spark advance signal |
boost CORRECTION
At 10:30 AM 1/9/2018, you wrote:
>At 07:38 PM 1/8/2018, you wrote:
>>
>>Bob,
>>
>>I missed this post earlier and noted your comment Re. this
>>corrected diagram in the other thread.
>>
>>I'm hoping 4-5" from the case is close enough to tie into the
>>ground wire for pin 1 input? As I mention in the other thread, for
>>some reason the ground wire on this unit is massive, around 12-14AWG.
>
> Exactly what parameter is being conditioned by
> the AD626?
My apologies, I got your particular task
stirred in with another conversation on use
of the AD626. I recall that you're simply
wanting to put a small gain on the advance
signal from the Electroair ignition system.
I downloaded the Electroair experimental
installation manual which is very UNCLEAR
as to what all the ground connections are
. . . and what kind of current flows in each wire.
Given the dearth of clarity, here's my best
recommendation. Use Pin 14 of J1 as the
(-) input measurement point. And, of course,
you already know that Pin 21 is the (+)
input.
Emacs!
Sorry for what must have appeared to be
a rather obtuse posting . . . didn't realize
the struggle with poor data.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Interesting Product Alert |
At 08:51 PM 1/9/2018, you wrote:
>What is the angle measurement it mentions? Does it work as an
>inclenometer as well?
I don't think it calculates any angles . . . there
is a bubble level on the face which assists the
operator in making consistent measurements.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition spark advance signal boost |
CORRECTIO
| From: | "Airdog77" <Airdog77(at)gmail.com> |
Bob,
I should have been a bit clearer myself on the ground wire off that unit since
--you're gonna love this-- it's not on the diagram!
Yes, there is actually a separate ground wire that is not depicted on that diagram,
and again, for some reason it's quite robust (~12-14AWG). So I measured
the distance from the case that I tied into that big ground wire with my 22AWG
lead for the AD626 (-) input at 4.5 inches.
Sorry for the confusion and thanks for the help!
Wade
--------
Airdog
Wade Parton
Building Long-EZ N916WP
www.longezpush.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477218#477218
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition spark advance signal |
boost CORRECTIO
At 02:02 AM 1/11/2018, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>
>I should have been a bit clearer myself on the ground wire off that
>unit since --you're gonna love this-- it's not on the diagram!
>
>Yes, there is actually a separate ground wire that is not depicted
>on that diagram, and again, for some reason it's quite robust
>(~12-14AWG). So I measured the distance from the case that I tied
>into that big ground wire with my 22AWG lead for the AD626 (-) input
>at 4.5 inches.
>
>Sorry for the confusion and thanks for the help!
That may be the ground return for the
9A coil charging current cited in the installation
manual. For your purposes, tying AD626(-) input
to the same airframe ground as this wire may
not be a problem but after you've got the
system up and running, you may observe
behaviors that prompt further inquiry and
perhaps relocation of the instrumentation
ground. Given the short length, you're
probably going to be okay.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition spark advance signal boost |
CORRECTIO
| From: | "Airdog77" <Airdog77(at)gmail.com> |
Bob,
I'll take note of that and watch it during future testing.
Thanks again!
Wade
--------
Airdog
Wade Parton
Building Long-EZ N916WP
www.longezpush.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477225#477225
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeffrey W. Skiba" <jskiba(at)icosa.net> |
| Subject: | Need a device to send 12volts when all 3 green lights |
are light
Below is the landing gear circuit, I need a device or build one that can u
se the 12volts coming from the gear down and locked switches and only send
12 volts to another device[for testing a led] IF ALL 3 lights (gear down an
d locked)
I thought use 3 NPN transistors in series but it seems on my test, if I sup
ply 12 volts to the base of the npn it still lights the led (leak though ?)
with no voltage on anything else
I am using figure two of these examples
http://www.rason.org/Projects/transwit/transwit.htm
[cid:image002.png(at)01D38AE1.28EBC0D0]
IDEAS ?
[cid:image001.png(at)01D38AB2.2D717B60]
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Need a device to send 12volts when all 3 green |
lights are light
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 1/11/2018 1:37 PM, Jeffrey W. Skiba wrote:
>
> Below is the landing gear circuit, I need a device or build one that
> can use the 12volts coming from the gear down and locked switches and
> only send 12 volts to another device[for testing a led] IF ALL 3
> lights (gear down and locked)
>
> I thought use 3 NPN transistors in series but it seems on my test, if
> I supply 12 volts to the base of the npn it still lights the led (leak
> though ?) with no voltage on anything else
>
> I am using figure two of these examples
>
> http://www.rason.org/Projects/transwit/transwit.htm
>
>
> IDEAS ?
>
Look here:
https://www.google.com/search?q=3+input+and+gate+truth+table&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwikuoCK2NDYAhVM1oMKHUrVDZgQsAQIKA&biw=1920&bih=987#imgrc=GMoqi5mBR2TtpM:
Note that a quad input AND gate might be easier to find, and you can use
it as a 3 input by tying the 4th input high.
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Need a device to send 12volts when all 3 green |
lights are light
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 1/11/2018 2:01 PM, Charlie England wrote:
> On 1/11/2018 1:37 PM, Jeffrey W. Skiba wrote:
>>
>> Below is the landing gear circuit, I need a device or build one that
>> can use the 12volts coming from the gear down and locked switches and
>> only send 12 volts to another device[for testing a led] IF ALL 3
>> lights (gear down and locked)
>>
>> I thought use 3 NPN transistors in series but it seems on my test, if
>> I supply 12 volts to the base of the npn it still lights the led
>> (leak though ?) with no voltage on anything else
>>
>> I am using figure two of these examples
>>
>> http://www.rason.org/Projects/transwit/transwit.htm
>>
>>
>> IDEAS ?
>>
> Look here:
> https://www.google.com/search?q=3+input+and+gate+truth+table&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwikuoCK2NDYAhVM1oMKHUrVDZgQsAQIKA&biw=1920&bih=987#imgrc=GMoqi5mBR2TtpM:
>
> Note that a quad input AND gate might be easier to find, and you can
> use it as a 3 input by tying the 4th input high.
Here's one that works on 12V, & you get 2 spare devices in the package:
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd4082b.pdf
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | capacitor durability |
So yesterday I received my shiny new 33000 micro farad capacitor, for use
with my Silent Hektik regulator. Within five minutes, I had managed to drop
it from a height of three feet onto my hardwood floor. The floor is fine,
but I wonder about the capacitor. How likely is it that it was damaged? How
would such damage show up?
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Need a device to send 12volts when all 3 green |
lights are light
At 02:01 PM 1/11/2018, you wrote:
>On 1/11/2018 1:37 PM, Jeffrey W. Skiba wrote:
>>Below is the landing gear circuit, I need a device or build one
>>that can use the 12volts coming from the gear down and locked
>>switches and only send 12 volts to another device[for testing a
>>led] IF ALL 3 lights (gear down and locked)
Can you just hook all the down-lock switches in series?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: capacitor durability |
| From: | Bill Maxwell <wrmaxwell(at)bigpond.com> |
Extremely unlikely to be damaged Ken, provided of course tthat the
terminals weren't broken off.
Bill
On 12/01/2018 7:38 AM, Ken Ryan wrote:
> So yesterday I received my shiny new 33000 micro farad capacitor, for
> use with my Silent Hektik regulator. Within five minutes, I had
> managed to drop it from a height of three feet onto my hardwood floor.
> The floor is fine, but I wonder about the capacitor. How likely is it
> that it was damaged? How would such damage show up?
>
> Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jeffrey W. Skiba" <jskiba(at)icosa.net> |
| Subject: | Need a device to send 12volts when all 3 green |
lights are light
Then I would lose each gear indication. This is for an audio alert device
input if the gear is not down and locked (all 3)
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr
ic-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need a device to send 12volts when all 3 gr
een lights are light
At 02:01 PM 1/11/2018, you wrote:
On 1/11/2018 1:37 PM, Jeffrey W. Skiba wrote:
Below is the landing gear circuit, I need a device or build one that can u
se the 12volts coming from the gear down and locked switches and only send
12 volts to another device[for testing a led] IF ALL 3 lights (gear down an
d locked)
Can you just hook all the down-lock switches in series?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)GMAIL.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: capacitor durability |
The terminals are fine. How would one know that a capacitor was not working
properly in a (for example) Rotax installation? I know some guys don't even
use the capacitor.
On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 1:18 PM, Bill Maxwell wrote:
> Extremely unlikely to be damaged Ken, provided of course tthat the
> terminals weren't broken off.
>
> Bill
>
> On 12/01/2018 7:38 AM, Ken Ryan wrote:
>
> So yesterday I received my shiny new 33000 micro farad capacitor, for use
> with my Silent Hektik regulator. Within five minutes, I had managed to drop
> it from a height of three feet onto my hardwood floor. The floor is fine,
> but I wonder about the capacitor. How likely is it that it was damaged? How
> would such damage show up?
>
> Ken
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: capacitor durability |
At 02:38 PM 1/11/2018, you wrote:
>So yesterday I received my shiny new 33000 micro farad capacitor,
>for use with my Silent Hektik regulator. Within five minutes, I had
>managed to drop it from a height of three feet onto my hardwood
>floor. The floor is fine, but I wonder about the capacitor. How
>likely is it that it was damaged? How would such damage show up?
If the case is not dented, the cap is probably
just fine. Even if it IS dented, risk to functionality
is low. Failure would show up as excessive leakage
precipitating a venting event. Generally nothing spectacular.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: capacitor durability |
Thanks. I will pretend nothing happened.
On Jan 12, 2018 09:09, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 02:38 PM 1/11/2018, you wrote:
>
> So yesterday I received my shiny new 33000 micro farad capacitor, for use
> with my Silent Hektik regulator. Within five minutes, I had managed to drop
> it from a height of three feet onto my hardwood floor. The floor is fine,
> but I wonder about the capacitor. How likely is it that it was damaged? How
> would such damage show up?
>
>
> If the case is not dented, the cap is probably
> just fine. Even if it IS dented, risk to functionality
> is low. Failure would show up as excessive leakage
> precipitating a venting event. Generally nothing spectacular.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Need a device to send 12volts when all 3 green |
lights are light
At 05:03 PM 1/11/2018, you wrote:
>Then I would lose each gear indication. This is for an audio alert
>device input if the gear is not down and locked (all 3)
>
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III
>Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 3:04 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need a device to send 12volts when
>all 3 green lights are light
Okay, how about something like this:
Emacs!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Need a device to send 12volts when all 3 green |
lights are light
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 1/12/2018 1:30 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 05:03 PM 1/11/2018, you wrote:
>> Then I would lose each gear indication. This is for an audio alert
>> device input if the gear is not down and locked (all 3)
>>
>> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> ] *On Behalf Of
>> *Robert L. Nuckolls, III
>> *Sent:* Thursday, January 11, 2018 3:04 PM
>> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Need a device to send 12volts when
>> all 3 green lights are light
>
> Okay, how about something like this:
>
> Emacs!
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
What's wrong with using a CMOS 3 input AND gate (linked in an earlier
email)?
Here's one that works on 12V, & you get 2 spare devices in the package:
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd4082b.pdf
---
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Need a device to send 12volts when all 3 green |
lights are light
>> Bob . . .
>What's wrong with using a CMOS 3 input AND gate (linked in an earlier email)?
>
>Here's one that works on 12V, & you get 2 spare devices in the package:
><http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd4082b.pdf>http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd4082b.pdf
Not a thing . . . just one of several alternatives.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: capacitor durability |
| From: | Bill Maxwell <wrmaxwell(at)bigpond.com> |
It can be tested both for its capacitance and for ESR, for both which
you would need the appropriate instrument. Hardly worth investing in
these if your only use is on this application. If you know a friendly
amateur radio operator, he or she should be able to do that for you, or
know of somebody who has the test instruments.
A simple test would be to put it across a battery and let it charge up,
then remove it and measure the voltage stored in the capacitor. Should
be close to the battery's voltage. Mind you don't touch both terminals
though, as it is capable of dumping its charge quickly into your body, a
trick I recall being often employed in high school physics classes.
A capacitor is a relatively simple device. In this application, it sits
across the DC supply from the alternator and regulator, where it smooths
out any remaining AC spikes that might otherwise show up as noise in
your radio or otherwise interfere with the proper operation of your
avionics.
On 13/01/2018 3:22 AM, Ken Ryan wrote:
> The terminals are fine. How would one know that a capacitor was not
> working properly in a (for example) Rotax installation? I know some
> guys don't even use the capacitor.
>
> On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 1:18 PM, Bill Maxwell > wrote:
>
> Extremely unlikely to be damaged Ken, provided of course tthat the
> terminals weren't broken off.
>
> Bill
>
>
> On 12/01/2018 7:38 AM, Ken Ryan wrote:
>> So yesterday I received my shiny new 33000 micro farad capacitor,
>> for use with my Silent Hektik regulator. Within five minutes, I
>> had managed to drop it from a height of three feet onto my
>> hardwood floor. The floor is fine, but I wonder about the
>> capacitor. How likely is it that it was damaged? How would such
>> damage show up?
>>
>> Ken
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: capacitor durability |
Thx Bill!
Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve.
On Jan 12, 2018 12:45, "Bill Maxwell" wrote:
> It can be tested both for its capacitance and for ESR, for both which you
> would need the appropriate instrument. Hardly worth investing in these if
> your only use is on this application. If you know a friendly amateur radio
> operator, he or she should be able to do that for you, or know of somebody
> who has the test instruments.
>
> A simple test would be to put it across a battery and let it charge up,
> then remove it and measure the voltage stored in the capacitor. Should be
> close to the battery's voltage. Mind you don't touch both terminals though,
> as it is capable of dumping its charge quickly into your body, a trick I
> recall being often employed in high school physics classes.
>
> A capacitor is a relatively simple device. In this application, it sits
> across the DC supply from the alternator and regulator, where it smooths
> out any remaining AC spikes that might otherwise show up as noise in your
> radio or otherwise interfere with the proper operation of your avionics.
>
> On 13/01/2018 3:22 AM, Ken Ryan wrote:
>
> The terminals are fine. How would one know that a capacitor was not
> working properly in a (for example) Rotax installation? I know some guys
> don't even use the capacitor.
>
> On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 1:18 PM, Bill Maxwell
> wrote:
>
>> Extremely unlikely to be damaged Ken, provided of course tthat the
>> terminals weren't broken off.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> On 12/01/2018 7:38 AM, Ken Ryan wrote:
>>
>> So yesterday I received my shiny new 33000 micro farad capacitor, for use
>> with my Silent Hektik regulator. Within five minutes, I had managed to drop
>> it from a height of three feet onto my hardwood floor. The floor is fine,
>> but I wonder about the capacitor. How likely is it that it was damaged? How
>> would such damage show up?
>>
>> Ken
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Testing Battery Capacity... |
I said: "I've yet to test the battery I replaced it with."
Bob N. said: "Would like to see that data . . ."
I don't recall for sure but my best guess is the "new" (bought Dec '16)
battery is a Duracell Ultra 18Ah. (whatever Batteries Plus was had as
their generic 18AH AGM). I didn't removed it from the Longeze when I
tested it today. It was 48 degreesF at the start of the test (and a few
degrees colder at the end) and with my 3 Ohm load it ran for 3hr and 14
minutes.
Steve.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Testing Battery Capacity... |
At 08:44 PM 1/13/2018, you wrote:
>I said: "I've yet to test the battery I replaced it with."
>
>Bob N. said: "Would like to see that data . . ."
>
>I don't recall for sure but my best guess is the
>"new" (bought Dec '16) battery
>is a Duracell Ultra 18Ah. =C2 (whatever Batteries Plus was had as their
generic
>18AH AGM). I didn't removed it from the Longeze when I tested it today.
>It was 48 degreesF at the start of the test (and a few degrees colder at
>the end) and with my 3 Ohm load it ran for 3hr and 14 minutes.
Interesting. Okay 11.5v average/3 ohms yields ~3.8A for 3.25
hours is 12.4 A.H. According to the Enersys data on a PC680,
the new battery supports about 4A for 3.2 hours
Emacs!
It would appear that your test article is pretty healthy. The only other
variable is load dump ability. Given the cap-check data, I'd bet
the load dump numbers are good too.
Bob . . .
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | diode on starter contactor |
My starter contactor's coil gets its ground through the contactor's metal
case. Given that, does it make any sense to use a diode? If so, how would
that diode be implemented and how would it remain effective when the case
itself is the ground path?
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
Wire it across the coil, so from non ground terminal to ground terminal, so its
reverse polarized when the coil is energized. Then when power is removed, the
magnetic field collapses driving current through the diode and avoiding a large
back emf.
If you put it the wrong way round, dont worry, it will just disappear.
On Jan 17, 2018, at 18:56, Ken Ryan wrote:
My starter contactor's coil gets its ground through the contactor's metal case.
Given that, does it make any sense to use a diode? If so, how would that diode
be implemented and how would it remain effective when the case itself is the
ground path?
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
An arc suppression diode should be connected directly across a coil. It is best
if the diode is located at the coil. If that is impractical for some reason,
then the diode can be located farther away as long as it is still connected
in parallel with the coil. The banded end of the diode must be connected to the
positive coil terminal and the other end of the diode connects to the negative
terminal of the coil. If the coil is internally connected to the case, then
the diode should be connected to the case or any convenient ground, assuming
that the case is grounded.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477380#477380
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
Alec, like I said in my original post, there is no ground terminal. Ground
is accomplished through the metal case.
On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 3:10 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
>
> Wire it across the coil, so from non ground terminal to ground terminal,
> so it=99s reverse polarized when the coil is energized. Then when p
ower is
> removed, the magnetic field collapses driving current through the diode a
nd
> avoiding a large back emf.
>
> If you put it the wrong way round, don=99t worry, it will just disa
ppear.
>
>
> On Jan 17, 2018, at 18:56, Ken Ryan wrote:
>
> My starter contactor's coil gets its ground through the contactor's metal
> case. Given that, does it make any sense to use a diode? If so, how would
> that diode be implemented and how would it remain effective when the case
> itself is the ground path?
>
> Ken
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
Think of the contactor's mounting screw as the ground terminal (it
actually *is* the ground terminal). So the banded end of the diode is
connected to the control terminal, and the unbanded end is connected to
one of the mounting screws. Or as others have said, any convenient
grounded terminal nearby. Note that you can solder or crimp a short
length of wire to either/both leads on the diode, and solder or crimp
ring terminals to the wire, if the diode's leads aren't long enough to
reach where they need to go. Just slip some heat shrink tubing, or even
wire insulation stripped off a bigger wire, over the exposed leads as
needed to keep the 'hot' end isolated from ground.
On 1/17/2018 6:18 PM, Ken Ryan wrote:
> Alec, like I said in my original post, there is no ground terminal.
> Ground is accomplished through the metal case.
>
> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 3:10 PM, Alec Myers > wrote:
>
> >
>
> Wire it across the coil, so from non ground terminal to ground
> terminal, so its reverse polarized when the coil is energized.
> Then when power is removed, the magnetic field collapses driving
> current through the diode and avoiding a large back emf.
>
> If you put it the wrong way round, dont worry, it will just
> disappear.
>
>
> On Jan 17, 2018, at 18:56, Ken Ryan > wrote:
>
> My starter contactor's coil gets its ground through the
> contactor's metal case. Given that, does it make any sense to use
> a diode? If so, how would that diode be implemented and how would
> it remain effective when the case itself is the ground path?
>
> Ken
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
Use the mounting bolt then, with a ring terminal under the bolt head.
> On Jan 17, 2018, at 19:18, Ken Ryan wrote:
>
> Alec, like I said in my original post, there is no ground terminal. Ground
is accomplished through the metal case.
>
>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 3:10 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
>>
>> Wire it across the coil, so from non ground terminal to ground terminal, s
o it=99s reverse polarized when the coil is energized. Then when power
is removed, the magnetic field collapses driving current through the diode a
nd avoiding a large back emf.
>>
>> If you put it the wrong way round, don=99t worry, it will just disa
ppear.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 17, 2018, at 18:56, Ken Ryan wrote:
>>
>> My starter contactor's coil gets its ground through the contactor's metal
case. Given that, does it make any sense to use a diode? If so, how would t
hat diode be implemented and how would it remain effective when the case its
elf is the ground path?
>>
>> Ken
>>
>>
>> =========================
============
>> -
>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> =========================
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> =========================
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> =========================
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributio
n
>> =========================
>>
>>
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
Thanks everyone.
On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 3:35 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
> Use the mounting bolt then, with a ring terminal under the bolt head.
>
> On Jan 17, 2018, at 19:18, Ken Ryan wrote:
>
> Alec, like I said in my original post, there is no ground terminal. Groun
d
> is accomplished through the metal case.
>
> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 3:10 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
>
>>
>> Wire it across the coil, so from non ground terminal to ground terminal,
>> so it=99s reverse polarized when the coil is energized. Then when
power is
>> removed, the magnetic field collapses driving current through the diode
and
>> avoiding a large back emf.
>>
>> If you put it the wrong way round, don=99t worry, it will just dis
appear.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 17, 2018, at 18:56, Ken Ryan wrote:
>>
>> My starter contactor's coil gets its ground through the contactor's meta
l
>> case. Given that, does it make any sense to use a diode? If so, how woul
d
>> that diode be implemented and how would it remain effective when the cas
e
>> itself is the ground path?
>>
>> Ken
>>
>>
>> ========================
=============
>> -
>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics
.com/
>> Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> ========================
===========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ========================
===========
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ========================
===========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on
>> ========================
===========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bernie <arcticarrow(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
I=99m trying to follow the diode and the starter sol. discussion. I mi
ssed the reason for the diode.
Thanks
Bernie
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jan 17, 2018, at 4:38 PM, Ken Ryan wrote:
>
> Thanks everyone.
>
>
>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 3:35 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
>> Use the mounting bolt then, with a ring terminal under the bolt head.
>>
>>> On Jan 17, 2018, at 19:18, Ken Ryan wrote:
>>>
>>> Alec, like I said in my original post, there is no ground terminal. Grou
nd is accomplished through the metal case.
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 3:10 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>> Wire it across the coil, so from non ground terminal to ground terminal
, so it=99s reverse polarized when the coil is energized. Then when po
wer is removed, the magnetic field collapses driving current through the dio
de and avoiding a large back emf.
>>>>
>>>> If you put it the wrong way round, don=99t worry, it will just di
sappear.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 17, 2018, at 18:56, Ken Ryan wrote:
>>>>
>>>> My starter contactor's coil gets its ground through the contactor's met
al case. Given that, does it make any sense to use a diode? If so, how would
that diode be implemented and how would it remain effective when the case i
tself is the ground path?
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ============
>>>> -
>>>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>>> ==========
>>>> FORUMS -
>>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> WIKI -
>>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> b Site -
>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribut
ion
>>>> ==========
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Bear <beartrax(at)mtaonline.net> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
Bernie,
As I understand it, when the solenoid is deenergized, a voltage surge
peak passes through the circuit which ages the solenoid contacts. The
diode prevents the passage of the surge current and lengthens the life
of the solenoid contacts. The diode band end is connected to the
positive side of the solenoid contractor and the other side of the diode
is connected to ground at the solenoid.
Bill
> On Jan 17, 2018, at 20:49, Bernie wrote:
>
> I=99m trying to follow the diode and the starter sol.
discussion. I missed the reason for the diode.
>
> Thanks
> Bernie
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 17, 2018, at 4:38 PM, Ken Ryan > wrote:
>
>> Thanks everyone.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 3:35 PM, Alec Myers > wrote:
>> Use the mounting bolt then, with a ring terminal under the bolt head.
>>
>> On Jan 17, 2018, at 19:18, Ken Ryan > wrote:
>>
>>> Alec, like I said in my original post, there is no ground terminal.
Ground is accomplished through the metal case.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 3:10 PM, Alec Myers > wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Wire it across the coil, so from non ground terminal to ground
terminal, so it=99s reverse polarized when the coil is energized.
Then when power is removed, the magnetic field collapses driving current
through the diode and avoiding a large back emf.
>>>
>>> If you put it the wrong way round, don=99t worry, it will just
disappear.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 17, 2018, at 18:56, Ken Ryan > wrote:
>>>
>>> My starter contactor's coil gets its ground through the contactor's
metal case. Given that, does it make any sense to use a diode? If so,
how would that diode be implemented and how would it remain effective
when the case itself is the ground path?
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>>
>>> ============
>>> -
>>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
<http://www.matronics.com/>Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>> ==========
>>> FORUMS -
>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
<http://forums.matronics.com/>
>>> ==========
>>> WIKI -
>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
<http://wiki.matronics.com/>
>>> ==========
>>> b Site -
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
<http://www.matronics.com/>contribution
>>> ==========
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bernie Willis <arcticarrow(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
Bill,
That refinement to the traditional circuit makes sense. Is there any
particular diode?
Thanks,
Bernie
> On Jan 17, 2018, at 9:59 PM, Bill Bear wrote:
>
> Bernie,
>
> As I understand it, when the solenoid is deenergized, a voltage surge
peak passes through the circuit which ages the solenoid contacts. The
diode prevents the passage of the surge current and lengthens the life
of the solenoid contacts. The diode band end is connected to the
positive side of the solenoid contractor and the other side of the diode
is connected to ground at the solenoid.
>
> Bill
>
>
>> On Jan 17, 2018, at 20:49, Bernie > wrote:
>>
>> I=99m trying to follow the diode and the starter sol.
discussion. I missed the reason for the diode.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Bernie
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jan 17, 2018, at 4:38 PM, Ken Ryan > wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks everyone.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 3:35 PM, Alec Myers > wrote:
>>> Use the mounting bolt then, with a ring terminal under the bolt
head.
>>>
>>> On Jan 17, 2018, at 19:18, Ken Ryan > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Alec, like I said in my original post, there is no ground terminal.
Ground is accomplished through the metal case.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 3:10 PM, Alec Myers > wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>> Wire it across the coil, so from non ground terminal to ground
terminal, so it=99s reverse polarized when the coil is energized.
Then when power is removed, the magnetic field collapses driving current
through the diode and avoiding a large back emf.
>>>>
>>>> If you put it the wrong way round, don=99t worry, it will
just disappear.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 17, 2018, at 18:56, Ken Ryan > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> My starter contactor's coil gets its ground through the contactor's
metal case. Given that, does it make any sense to use a diode? If so,
how would that diode be implemented and how would it remain effective
when the case itself is the ground path?
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ============
>>>> -
>>>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
<http://www.matronics.com/>Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>>> ==========
>>>> FORUMS -
>>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
<http://forums.matronics.com/>
>>>> ==========
>>>> WIKI -
>>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
<http://wiki.matronics.com/>
>>>> ==========
>>>> b Site -
>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
<http://www.matronics.com/>contribution
>>>> ==========
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
Inductors (a solenoid coil is a good example of a large inductor) resist sudden
changes in current flowing through them. When you energize the solenoid the current
through the coil grows slowly to its maximum value. When you break the
circuit with the switch you are forcing a sudden change in current, which causes
a massive voltage spike. In the microseconds after the switch contact breaks
the gap at the switch contacts is narrow enough, and the voltage rise at the
inductor is big enough, to cause arcing and contact damage in the switch.
The diode allows the current in the coil to continue to flow after the switch contact
is broken by completing the circuit from the ground terminal of the coil
back to the now-disconnected other terminal. (A diagram should make this clearer).
No sudden change in current means no sudden voltage rise and no possibility
of arcing.
The energy to drive the continuing current flow through the coil after the battery
power has been removed from the solenoid terminal comes from the energy stored
in the magnetic field. As the field collapses the current drops to zero.
On Jan 18, 2018, at 1:59 AM, Bill Bear wrote:
Bernie,
As I understand it, when the solenoid is deenergized, a voltage surge peak passes
through the circuit which ages the solenoid contacts. The diode prevents the
passage of the surge current and lengthens the life of the solenoid contacts.
The diode band end is connected to the positive side of the solenoid contractor
and the other side of the diode is connected to ground at the solenoid.
Bill
> On Jan 17, 2018, at 20:49, Bernie wrote:
>
> Im trying to follow the diode and the starter sol. discussion. I missed the reason
for the diode.
>
> Thanks
> Bernie
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 17, 2018, at 4:38 PM, Ken Ryan wrote:
>
>> Thanks everyone.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 3:35 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
>> Use the mounting bolt then, with a ring terminal under the bolt head.
>>
>> On Jan 17, 2018, at 19:18, Ken Ryan wrote:
>>
>>> Alec, like I said in my original post, there is no ground terminal. Ground
is accomplished through the metal case.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 3:10 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
>>>
>>> Wire it across the coil, so from non ground terminal to ground terminal, so
its reverse polarized when the coil is energized. Then when power is removed,
the magnetic field collapses driving current through the diode and avoiding a
large back emf.
>>>
>>> If you put it the wrong way round, dont worry, it will just disappear.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 17, 2018, at 18:56, Ken Ryan wrote:
>>>
>>> My starter contactor's coil gets its ground through the contactor's metal case.
Given that, does it make any sense to use a diode? If so, how would that
diode be implemented and how would it remain effective when the case itself is
the ground path?
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>>
>>> ============
>>> -
>>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>> ==========
>>> FORUMS -
>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> WIKI -
>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> b Site -
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> ==========
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
| From: | "Eric Page" <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
Heres a really excellent video by a guy named Alan Wolke (an applications engineer
at Tektronix) that explains back-EMF in inductive circuits and the function
of snubber or flyback diodes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6I7Ycbv8B8
As you watch this, keep in mind that Alan is using a small signal relay with a
relatively tiny coil that operates on a few tens of milliamps. Then consider
the typical starter solenoid: it should be obvious that the potential (pardon
the pun) for large voltage spikes is amplified by the physical size of its coil
and large current that it consumes in operation.
Eric
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477413#477413
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bernie Willis <arcticarrow(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
I really appreciate the discussion on the theory. Also found this issue discussed
in Aero Connection. I have an old Bonanza that occasionally produces a chattering
sound when the master/battery switch in turned on. Now I suspect it
is the master solenoid contacts showing signs of failure. A new solenoid is in
order but the diode protection seems in order also. A little research shows
diodes available in many voltage, capacitance and temperature rating, anything
from .07 to $300. What are the parameters of an appropriate diode to protect
a 12 volt master or starter solenoid?
Bernie
> On Jan 18, 2018, at 4:41 AM, Alec Myers wrote:
>
>
> Inductors (a solenoid coil is a good example of a large inductor) resist sudden
changes in current flowing through them. When you energize the solenoid the
current through the coil grows slowly to its maximum value. When you break the
circuit with the switch you are forcing a sudden change in current, which causes
a massive voltage spike. In the microseconds after the switch contact breaks
the gap at the switch contacts is narrow enough, and the voltage rise at the
inductor is big enough, to cause arcing and contact damage in the switch.
>
> The diode allows the current in the coil to continue to flow after the switch
contact is broken by completing the circuit from the ground terminal of the coil
back to the now-disconnected other terminal. (A diagram should make this clearer).
No sudden change in current means no sudden voltage rise and no possibility
of arcing.
>
> The energy to drive the continuing current flow through the coil after the battery
power has been removed from the solenoid terminal comes from the energy
stored in the magnetic field. As the field collapses the current drops to zero.
>
> On Jan 18, 2018, at 1:59 AM, Bill Bear wrote:
>
> Bernie,
>
> As I understand it, when the solenoid is deenergized, a voltage surge peak passes
through the circuit which ages the solenoid contacts. The diode prevents
the passage of the surge current and lengthens the life of the solenoid contacts.
The diode band end is connected to the positive side of the solenoid contractor
and the other side of the diode is connected to ground at the solenoid.
>
> Bill
>
>
>> On Jan 17, 2018, at 20:49, Bernie wrote:
>>
>> Im trying to follow the diode and the starter sol. discussion. I missed the
reason for the diode.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Bernie
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jan 17, 2018, at 4:38 PM, Ken Ryan wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks everyone.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 3:35 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
>>> Use the mounting bolt then, with a ring terminal under the bolt head.
>>>
>>> On Jan 17, 2018, at 19:18, Ken Ryan wrote:
>>>
>>>> Alec, like I said in my original post, there is no ground terminal. Ground
is accomplished through the metal case.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 3:10 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Wire it across the coil, so from non ground terminal to ground terminal, so
its reverse polarized when the coil is energized. Then when power is removed,
the magnetic field collapses driving current through the diode and avoiding
a large back emf.
>>>>
>>>> If you put it the wrong way round, dont worry, it will just disappear.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 17, 2018, at 18:56, Ken Ryan wrote:
>>>>
>>>> My starter contactor's coil gets its ground through the contactor's metal
case. Given that, does it make any sense to use a diode? If so, how would that
diode be implemented and how would it remain effective when the case itself is
the ground path?
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ============
>>>> -
>>>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>>> ==========
>>>> FORUMS -
>>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> WIKI -
>>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> b Site -
>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>> ==========
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
A ten cent 1N4001 is just fine.
Voltage refers to a safe reverse voltage limit before avalanche breakdown: the
coil diode is only reverse biased to 12V. A 1N4001 is rated to 50V.
Current rating: somewhat irrelevant, since theres no sustained current load. A
1N4001 is good for up to 1A continuous, and 30A surge. Neither limit will be close
to met in this application.
Capacitance: refers to the junction capacitance when reverse biased. Irrelevant
in this application.
Physical package: anything big enough to solder easily will have enough thermal
mass to absorb what little energy is stored in the coil magnetic field.
On Jan 18, 2018, at 12:26 PM, Bernie Willis wrote:
I really appreciate the discussion on the theory. Also found this issue discussed
in Aero Connection. I have an old Bonanza that occasionally produces a chattering
sound when the master/battery switch in turned on. Now I suspect it
is the master solenoid contacts showing signs of failure. A new solenoid is in
order but the diode protection seems in order also. A little research shows
diodes available in many voltage, capacitance and temperature rating, anything
from .07 to $300. What are the parameters of an appropriate diode to protect
a 12 volt master or starter solenoid?
Bernie
> On Jan 18, 2018, at 4:41 AM, Alec Myers wrote:
>
>
> Inductors (a solenoid coil is a good example of a large inductor) resist sudden
changes in current flowing through them. When you energize the solenoid the
current through the coil grows slowly to its maximum value. When you break the
circuit with the switch you are forcing a sudden change in current, which causes
a massive voltage spike. In the microseconds after the switch contact breaks
the gap at the switch contacts is narrow enough, and the voltage rise at the
inductor is big enough, to cause arcing and contact damage in the switch.
>
> The diode allows the current in the coil to continue to flow after the switch
contact is broken by completing the circuit from the ground terminal of the coil
back to the now-disconnected other terminal. (A diagram should make this clearer).
No sudden change in current means no sudden voltage rise and no possibility
of arcing.
>
> The energy to drive the continuing current flow through the coil after the battery
power has been removed from the solenoid terminal comes from the energy
stored in the magnetic field. As the field collapses the current drops to zero.
>
> On Jan 18, 2018, at 1:59 AM, Bill Bear wrote:
>
> Bernie,
>
> As I understand it, when the solenoid is deenergized, a voltage surge peak passes
through the circuit which ages the solenoid contacts. The diode prevents
the passage of the surge current and lengthens the life of the solenoid contacts.
The diode band end is connected to the positive side of the solenoid contractor
and the other side of the diode is connected to ground at the solenoid.
>
> Bill
>
>
>> On Jan 17, 2018, at 20:49, Bernie wrote:
>>
>> Im trying to follow the diode and the starter sol. discussion. I missed the
reason for the diode.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Bernie
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jan 17, 2018, at 4:38 PM, Ken Ryan wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks everyone.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 3:35 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
>>> Use the mounting bolt then, with a ring terminal under the bolt head.
>>>
>>> On Jan 17, 2018, at 19:18, Ken Ryan wrote:
>>>
>>>> Alec, like I said in my original post, there is no ground terminal. Ground
is accomplished through the metal case.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 3:10 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Wire it across the coil, so from non ground terminal to ground terminal, so
its reverse polarized when the coil is energized. Then when power is removed,
the magnetic field collapses driving current through the diode and avoiding
a large back emf.
>>>>
>>>> If you put it the wrong way round, dont worry, it will just disappear.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 17, 2018, at 18:56, Ken Ryan wrote:
>>>>
>>>> My starter contactor's coil gets its ground through the contactor's metal
case. Given that, does it make any sense to use a diode? If so, how would that
diode be implemented and how would it remain effective when the case itself is
the ground path?
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ============
>>>> -
>>>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>>> ==========
>>>> FORUMS -
>>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> WIKI -
>>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> b Site -
>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>> ==========
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bernie Willis <arcticarrow(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
Alec,
That was a quick reply! Now I can proceed.
Thanks,
Bernie
> On Jan 18, 2018, at 8:49 AM, Alec Myers wrote:
>
>
> A ten cent 1N4001 is just fine.
>
> Voltage refers to a safe reverse voltage limit before avalanche breakdown: the
coil diode is only reverse biased to 12V. A 1N4001 is rated to 50V.
> Current rating: somewhat irrelevant, since theres no sustained current load.
A 1N4001 is good for up to 1A continuous, and 30A surge. Neither limit will be
close to met in this application.
> Capacitance: refers to the junction capacitance when reverse biased. Irrelevant
in this application.
> Physical package: anything big enough to solder easily will have enough thermal
mass to absorb what little energy is stored in the coil magnetic field.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 18, 2018, at 12:26 PM, Bernie Willis wrote:
>
>
> I really appreciate the discussion on the theory. Also found this issue discussed
in Aero Connection. I have an old Bonanza that occasionally produces a
chattering sound when the master/battery switch in turned on. Now I suspect it
is the master solenoid contacts showing signs of failure. A new solenoid is
in order but the diode protection seems in order also. A little research shows
diodes available in many voltage, capacitance and temperature rating, anything
from .07 to $300. What are the parameters of an appropriate diode to protect
a 12 volt master or starter solenoid?
>
> Bernie
>
>> On Jan 18, 2018, at 4:41 AM, Alec Myers wrote:
>>
>>
>> Inductors (a solenoid coil is a good example of a large inductor) resist sudden
changes in current flowing through them. When you energize the solenoid the
current through the coil grows slowly to its maximum value. When you break the
circuit with the switch you are forcing a sudden change in current, which causes
a massive voltage spike. In the microseconds after the switch contact breaks
the gap at the switch contacts is narrow enough, and the voltage rise at
the inductor is big enough, to cause arcing and contact damage in the switch.
>>
>> The diode allows the current in the coil to continue to flow after the switch
contact is broken by completing the circuit from the ground terminal of the
coil back to the now-disconnected other terminal. (A diagram should make this
clearer). No sudden change in current means no sudden voltage rise and no possibility
of arcing.
>>
>> The energy to drive the continuing current flow through the coil after the battery
power has been removed from the solenoid terminal comes from the energy
stored in the magnetic field. As the field collapses the current drops to zero.
>>
>> On Jan 18, 2018, at 1:59 AM, Bill Bear wrote:
>>
>> Bernie,
>>
>> As I understand it, when the solenoid is deenergized, a voltage surge peak passes
through the circuit which ages the solenoid contacts. The diode prevents
the passage of the surge current and lengthens the life of the solenoid contacts.
The diode band end is connected to the positive side of the solenoid contractor
and the other side of the diode is connected to ground at the solenoid.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>> On Jan 17, 2018, at 20:49, Bernie wrote:
>>>
>>> Im trying to follow the diode and the starter sol. discussion. I missed the
reason for the diode.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Bernie
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Jan 17, 2018, at 4:38 PM, Ken Ryan wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks everyone.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 3:35 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
>>>> Use the mounting bolt then, with a ring terminal under the bolt head.
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 17, 2018, at 19:18, Ken Ryan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Alec, like I said in my original post, there is no ground terminal. Ground
is accomplished through the metal case.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 3:10 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Wire it across the coil, so from non ground terminal to ground terminal,
so its reverse polarized when the coil is energized. Then when power is removed,
the magnetic field collapses driving current through the diode and avoiding
a large back emf.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you put it the wrong way round, dont worry, it will just disappear.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 17, 2018, at 18:56, Ken Ryan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> My starter contactor's coil gets its ground through the contactor's metal
case. Given that, does it make any sense to use a diode? If so, how would that
diode be implemented and how would it remain effective when the case itself
is the ground path?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ken
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ============
>>>>> -
>>>>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>>>> ==========
>>>>> FORUMS -
>>>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>>> ==========
>>>>> WIKI -
>>>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>>>> ==========
>>>>> b Site -
>>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>> ==========
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
At 11:49 PM 1/17/2018, you wrote:
>I=99m trying to follow the diode and the starter
>sol. discussion. I missed the reason for the diode.
We've had several discussions on spike-suppression
diodes on relays and contactors over the years. One
of the first was prompted by a snafu over an
airworthiness directive against the ACS/Gerdes
off-left-right-on-start key switches. Seems
the inductive spike fire generated by relatively
high coil current of some starter contactors was
eating up the start contact in the key switch.
Here's one example of a OEM aircafter's response
to the AD.
https://goo.gl/1XvDtj
This was the CORRECT way to install the diode . . .
the AD also called for refurbishment of the
start switch contacts within the keyswitch.
Here's background on the physics for proper
placement of the diode.
https://goo.gl/WUS1Ya
The problem would get potentially worse when
lightweight starters started showing up.
Still more stress on the switch was a function of
a two-stage engagement scenario which impressed a much larger
engagement inrush current compared to legacy
starter contactors. Here's the background.
https://goo.gl/opeqsM
Later in the discussions, there was consternation
about how 'inadvised' configuration of spike
suppression would cause the contactor's points
to open more slowly and exacerbate contact wear.
The assertion was predicated on an article published
by Potter-Brumfield
https://goo.gl/iCrqch
The author asserts that a diode connected right
across the contactor/relay coil results in significantly
slower contact opening velocity. This prompted a
trip to the workbench to explore the physics:
https://goo.gl/KNTr8y
For our purposes, the diode was demonstrated to
effect a DELAY in contact first opening . . . but
once the contacts started to move, the AIR GAP
in the magnetic circuit had a much more profound
effect on opening velocity than did the slower
decay of current in the contactor coil.
The short answer is that adding a plain-jane diode
across the coil of any relay or contactor in
the airplane will not noticeably affect service
life of that device. The diode improves service
life of the SWITCH THAT CONTROLS THE CONTACTOR.
Further, contactor coils do not propagate spikes
onto the system looking for vulnerable solid
state electronics to fry.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
At 11:49 AM 1/18/2018, you wrote:
>
>A ten cent 1N4001 is just fine.
>
>Voltage refers to a safe reverse voltage limit
>before avalanche breakdown: the coil diode is
>only reverse biased to 12V. A 1N4001 is rated to 50V.
>Current rating: somewhat irrelevant, since
>there=99s no sustained current load. A 1N4001 is
>good for up to 1A continuous, and 30A surge.
>Neither limit will be close to met in this application.
Absolutely correct. My personal favorites
are the 1N5400 series devices, NOT for their
electrical ratings but for mechanical
robustness. Example:
https://goo.gl/2CGXgf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 1/18/2018 12:13 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 11:49 AM 1/18/2018, you wrote:
>>
>> A ten cent 1N4001 is just fine.
>>
>> Voltage refers to a safe reverse voltage limit before avalanche
>> breakdown: the coil diode is only reverse biased to 12V. A 1N4001 is
>> rated to 50V.
>> Current rating: somewhat irrelevant, since theres no sustained
>> current load. A 1N4001 is good for up to 1A continuous, and 30A
>> surge. Neither limit will be close to met in this application.
>
> Absolutely correct. My personal favorites
> are the 1N5400 series devices, NOT for their
> electrical ratings but for mechanical
> robustness. Example:
>
> https://goo.gl/2CGXgf
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
And, while I haven't priced the 5400 series, the 4000 series prices used
to be virtually identical from 4001 to 4007 (1KV rating). Not that you'd
need it for this application, but when I repaired electrons for a
living, we just stocked the 07s because they work for everything at that
current rating.
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | diode on starter contactor |
| From: | Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com> |
>> when the solenoid is de-energized, a voltage surge peak passes
through the circuit which ages the solenoid contacts. The diode prevents
the passage of the surge current and lengthens the life of the solenoid
contacts.
For an abundance of clarity, the diode across the coil terminals does
NOT protect the solenoid's contacts. It protects instead the switch
contacts of whatever switch controls that solenoid coil: the starter
switch for the starter contactor; the master switch contacts for the
master contactor.
Paul
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
>> Bob . . .
>And, while I haven't priced the 5400 series, the 4000 series prices
>used to be virtually identical from 4001 to 4007 (1KV rating). Not
>that you'd need it for this application, but when I repaired
>electrons for a living, we just stocked the 07s because they work
>for everything at that current rating.
Astute observation.
I've not confirmed this with a real diode-maker
person but . . .
I was working at a nuclear fuels manufacturing
company in Apollo, PA where a colleague asserted
that variously rated diodes were all made on the
same line. They were screened for breakdown voltage
looking first for devices that would function as
1000 volt devices. When the order for 007 parts
was 'filled', the next screen was for the lower
voltage part with the lowest breakdown would
be marked 000.
Over the years, production variability went down
to the point where virtually all parts would make
the cut for 1kV parts. But rather than upset the
legacy apple-cart, they continued to market the
lower voltage part numbers . . . which were in
fact 1 kV devices.
Somewhere around here I've got a 2 kV power
supply. It would be interesting to see just how
far one can push the modern LV parts . . . but
that ain't happ'ng soon . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
| From: | Eric Jones <emjones(at)charter.net> |
This subject has been discussed here for years.
My opinion and what I have suggested for years is that the current best
practice is to use bidirectional zener diodes. Regular diodes are
problematic. See attached.
You can use what I suggest or slightly heavier ones for better
mechanical properties. (I am currently shipping the 5KE20CA parts).
Eric M. Jones
-Bought a 177RG Cardinal.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
Eric,
I see great marketing (FUD) in that document but no actual information.
What do you believe to be the problem with a regular diode?
On Jan 18, 2018, at 4:38 PM, Eric Jones wrote:
This subject has been discussed here for years.
My opinion and what I have suggested for years is that the current best practice
is to use bidirectional zener diodes. Regular diodes are problematic. See attached.
You can use what I suggest or slightly heavier ones for better mechanical properties.
(I am currently shipping the 5KE20CA parts).
Eric M. Jones
-Bought a 177RG Cardinal.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
Eric, is it okay to solder a wire to your snapjacks?
On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 12:38 PM, Eric Jones wrote:
> This subject has been discussed here for years.
>
> My opinion and what I have suggested for years is that the current best
> practice is to use bidirectional zener diodes. Regular diodes are
> problematic. See attached.
>
> You can use what I suggest or slightly heavier ones for better mechanical
> properties. (I am currently shipping the 5KE20CA parts).
>
> Eric M. Jones
>
> -Bought a 177RG Cardinal.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
At 03:38 PM 1/18/2018, you wrote:
>This subject has been discussed here for years.
>
>My opinion and what I have suggested for years is that the current
>best practice is to use bidirectional zener diodes. Regular diodes
>are problematic. See attached.
Emacs!
Can you demonstrate this? "Excessive" is non-quantified.
Was my bench top study flawed in some way?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
Im trying to work out why a diode has *any* significant effect on release time
compared to a tranzorb or similar, and if it did, why you might care.
Also, why should it have any effect on relay life reduction ?
My skeptical self needs help to get beyond merely more expensive therefore must
be better.
On Jan 18, 2018, at 5:01 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
At 03:38 PM 1/18/2018, you wrote:
> This subject has been discussed here for years.
>
> My opinion and what I have suggested for years is that the current best practice
is to use bidirectional zener diodes. Regular diodes are problematic. See
attached.
Can you demonstrate this? "Excessive" is non-quantified.
Was my bench top study flawed in some way?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
A capacitor opposes any change in voltage.
An inductor (coil) opposes any change in current.
When the switch is closed (Figure 1), positive
current flows from left to right through the coil.
The diode does not conduct because positive
current can not flow against the arrow.
_
When the switch is opened (Figure 2), the
coil opposes any change and tries to
maintain the current. The coil is no longer a load.
The coil is now a source, like a battery.
Induced current still flows in the same direction
through the coil from left to right.
But the polarity has changed because
because the coil is now a source, not a load.
The diode now conducts because positive on
the right side flows with the arrow. Current
always tries to return to the source, the coil in
this case. It takes the path of least resistance,
which is through the diode, not across the open
switch contacts. The induced voltage is limited
to the forward voltage drop across the diode.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477433#477433
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/inductor__213.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
Last year I put a lighter AGM battery in my aircraft and moved it to the
firewall along with the master contactor and made some new diodes for the
contactors (one was broken). Saved about 4 pounds in wiring alone! Only
problem afterwards was that if the battery was even slightly down sometimes
the starter would turn a split second and then nothing. Repeated attempts
usually ended up with the starter eventually running fine until the engine
started. Putting a voltmeter on the starter confirmed that the problem was
a lack of power to the starter, not the starter itself. I had a battery
problem later on and replaced the battery, no change. Thinking I had messed
up the starter contactor while tightening nuts on it I swapped it out, no
change. At this point I started to suspect my diode so I disconnected it:
Problem gone! I suspect I installed it backwards. Going to make the new one
with clear shrinkwrap tubing so it can't happen again.
On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 2:37 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
>
> I=99m trying to work out why a diode has *any* significant effect o
n release
> time compared to a tranzorb or similar, and if it did, why you might care
.
> Also, why should it have any effect on relay life reduction ?
>
> My skeptical self needs help to get beyond merely =9Cmore expensive
> therefore must be better=9D.
>
>
> On Jan 18, 2018, at 5:01 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
> At 03:38 PM 1/18/2018, you wrote:
> > This subject has been discussed here for years.
> >
> > My opinion and what I have suggested for years is that the current best
> practice is to use bidirectional zener diodes. Regular diodes are
> problematic. See attached.
>
>
>
> Can you demonstrate this? "Excessive" is non-quantified.
> Was my bench top study flawed in some way?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
At 04:37 PM 1/18/2018, you wrote:
>
>I=99m trying to work out why a diode has *any*
>significant effect on release time compared to a
>tranzorb or similar, and if it did, why you might care.
>Also, why should it have any effect on relay life reduction =85?
>My skeptical self needs help to get beyond
>merely =9Cmore expensive therefore must be better=9D.
When mechanical contacts are opened, an electric
arc forms in the air gap. With low voltages and
currents, the fire may be small, but it is never
zero. In one of my articles, I mentioned and experiment
when a microswitch was biased up with a dry cell
and resistor. The contacts were observed
through a microscope in the dark (the side was opened
up on the switch for the experiment).
Even at these very low power levels, a BLUE arc
could be observed. The temperature of blue is
HOT. This suggests that no matter what the power
level, every opening even will transfer molecules
of metal between contacts.
Again, not a lot of metal but never zero.
As energy levels go up and particularly
at higher voltages, the intensity and DURATION
of the arcing event increases. This is an expected
condition. Relays are designed to meet life cycle
ratings at specific power levels and circuit
characteristics by adjusting contact material,
closing forces, opening velocities, opening
gaps, etc. Conditions are important . . . switches
and relays will have AC, DC and LAMP ratings
applied to their service life limits.
https://goo.gl/CPtPYJ
If you've ever tried to do any stick-welding, you
understand the need for (1) making initial cold
contact, (2) breaking that contact to form an
arc, then maintaining an optimum distance between
rod and work-piece to achieve a SUSTAINED fire
at a temperature conducive to the TRANSFER
of metal from rod to work-piece.
If the contacts of a switch or relay do not spread
fast enough, wide enough and with sufficient
thermal mass in contacts, then the TRANSFER of
metal will exceed that which meets design goals
for service life.
This lays the groundwork for a notion that relay
contacts will accelerate open at some rate which is
a function of spring, mass and decay of the
magnetic field which was originally applied to
close the contacts.
It's easily demonstrated that rate of decay for
this magnetic field is strongly influenced by
the choice of suppression for energy stored in
the coil at the time it is de-energized.
A totally open-circuit coil is the fastest, but
transient voltage during field collapse is greatest.
You can drive a coil with a current limited source
and the throw a dead short across the coil, reducing
its excitation current to zero thus initiating
the contact opening sequence. In this condition,
the field collapse transient voltage will be zero
and time to decay will be a whole lot longer.
Hence, there is a range of decay rates offered by
the array of suppression techniques.
I've have yet to discover a paper that describes
the behavior of relay magnetic holding force
in detail . . . many papers that jump to an
'obvious' conclusion that if decay rate in
the coil is extended by factors of 10 or more,
then opening velocity of the contacts is similarly
depressed.
What I observed (in 45 years of herding electrons
in airplanes and conducting numerous relay and
switch failure studies) is that as a relay closes,
the CONTACTS CLOSE before the magnetic armature
BOTTOMS OUT. There is a spring rate associated
with this extra motion that sets the contact
closed holding force.
This leads us to the idea that as the magnetic
field in the device decays, there is a period
of time from first motion the of armature off
the bottomed-out position until closing force
on the contacts drops to zero and they begin
to move. This means that there is a GROWING
AIR GAP in the magnetic circuit holding the
contacts closed.
This air gap has a profound suppressing effect
on that magnetic force. It's an effect that
grossly over-rides the decay rate of the magnetic
from the coil.
Magnetic decay rate does indeed affect drop-out
time for the relay . . . this was demonstrated in
the data collected during my bench-top experiments.
Decay rate adds a time delay between de-energizing
of the coil and first opening of the contacts.
However, by the time the contacts see first motion,
the magnetic air gap is established and growing.
The air gap has much more control over contact
acceleration than does coil current. Hence, the
duration of arc between spreading contacts showed
only a slight difference between diode-suppressed
and non-suppressed contactor.
The case for 'supper suppressors' is further
weakened by the fact that starter and battery
contactors on our airplanes are considered very
busy if they get a few operations per week.
The average light aircraft flies 50 hours
a year. If you install switches and relay rated
for tens of thousands of operations, it stands to
reason that benefits gained by going-the-extra-mile
on coil suppression yields no measurable benefit.
Then, there is the study of contact erosion during
closure as influenced by the physics of the switched
circuit. This is due to arcing that occurs during
contact BOUNCE. Many closures and openings per
operation . . . much smaller gap during the bounce . . .
but exceedingly unfriendly to relay life under
some conditions.
But that's a totally different story . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
At 07:09 PM 1/18/2018, you wrote:
>Last year I put a lighter AGM battery in my aircraft and moved it to
>the firewall along with the master contactor and made some new
>diodes for the contactors (one was broken). Saved about 4 pounds in
>wiring alone! Only problem afterwards was that if the battery was
>even slightly down sometimes the starter would turn a split second
>and then nothing. Repeated attempts usually ended up with the
>starter eventually running fine until the engine started. Putting a
>voltmeter on the starter confirmed that the problem was a lack of
>power to the starter, not the starter itself. I had a battery
>problem later on and replaced the battery, no change. Thinking I had
>messed up the starter contactor while tightening nuts on it I
>swapped it out, no change. At this point I started to suspect my
>diode so I disconnected it: Problem gone! I suspect I installed it
>backwards. Going to make the new one with clear shrinkwrap tubing so
>it can't happen again.
If your diode is installed backwards, it will conduct
HARD while the starter button is depressed. Plastic
diodes generally smoke for a few seconds and split,
some will literally explode. I've seen a few cases
where they simply fused short and tripped the starter
control circuit breaker.
If removing the diode cured your problem, then it
probably was 'backwards'. Do you have a breaker
or fuse on your starter control line? That shorted condition
should have opened the circuit protection.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
I'm confused. It seems like you are now saying that because the relays are
rated for far more cycles than they will ever see, there is no reason to
bother with diodes.
Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve.
On Jan 19, 2018 7:06 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 04:37 PM 1/18/2018, you wrote:
>
>
> I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2m trying to work out why a diode has *any* signi
ficant effect on
> release time compared to a tranzorb or similar, and if it did, why you
> might care.
> Also, why should it have any effect on relay life reduction ?
> My skeptical self needs help to get beyond merely =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93mo
re expensive
> therefore must be better=C3=A2=82=AC .
>
>
> When mechanical contacts are opened, an electric
> arc forms in the air gap. With low voltages and
> currents, the fire may be small, but it is never
> zero. In one of my articles, I mentioned and experiment
> when a microswitch was biased up with a dry cell
> and resistor. The contacts were observed
> through a microscope in the dark (the side was opened
> up on the switch for the experiment).
>
> Even at these very low power levels, a BLUE arc
> could be observed. The temperature of blue is
> HOT. This suggests that no matter what the power
> level, every opening even will transfer molecules
> of metal between contacts.
>
> Again, not a lot of metal but never zero.
>
> As energy levels go up and particularly
> at higher voltages, the intensity and DURATION
> of the arcing event increases. This is an expected
> condition. Relays are designed to meet life cycle
> ratings at specific power levels and circuit
> characteristics by adjusting contact material,
> closing forces, opening velocities, opening
> gaps, etc. Conditions are important . . . switches
> and relays will have AC, DC and LAMP ratings
> applied to their service life limits.
>
> https://goo.gl/CPtPYJ
>
> If you've ever tried to do any stick-welding, you
> understand the need for (1) making initial cold
> contact, (2) breaking that contact to form an
> arc, then maintaining an optimum distance between
> rod and work-piece to achieve a SUSTAINED fire
> at a temperature conducive to the TRANSFER
> of metal from rod to work-piece.
>
> If the contacts of a switch or relay do not spread
> fast enough, wide enough and with sufficient
> thermal mass in contacts, then the TRANSFER of
> metal will exceed that which meets design goals
> for service life.
>
> This lays the groundwork for a notion that relay
> contacts will accelerate open at some rate which is
> a function of spring, mass and decay of the
> magnetic field which was originally applied to
> close the contacts.
>
> It's easily demonstrated that rate of decay for
> this magnetic field is strongly influenced by
> the choice of suppression for energy stored in
> the coil at the time it is de-energized.
>
> A totally open-circuit coil is the fastest, but
> transient voltage during field collapse is greatest.
> You can drive a coil with a current limited source
> and the throw a dead short across the coil, reducing
> its excitation current to zero thus initiating
> the contact opening sequence. In this condition,
> the field collapse transient voltage will be zero
> and time to decay will be a whole lot longer.
> Hence, there is a range of decay rates offered by
> the array of suppression techniques.
>
> I've have yet to discover a paper that describes
> the behavior of relay magnetic holding force
> in detail . . . many papers that jump to an
> 'obvious' conclusion that if decay rate in
> the coil is extended by factors of 10 or more,
> then opening velocity of the contacts is similarly
> depressed.
>
> What I observed (in 45 years of herding electrons
> in airplanes and conducting numerous relay and
> switch failure studies) is that as a relay closes,
> the CONTACTS CLOSE before the magnetic armature
> BOTTOMS OUT. There is a spring rate associated
> with this extra motion that sets the contact
> closed holding force.
>
> This leads us to the idea that as the magnetic
> field in the device decays, there is a period
> of time from first motion the of armature off
> the bottomed-out position until closing force
> on the contacts drops to zero and they begin
> to move. This means that there is a GROWING
> AIR GAP in the magnetic circuit holding the
> contacts closed.
>
> This air gap has a profound suppressing effect
> on that magnetic force. It's an effect that
> grossly over-rides the decay rate of the magnetic
> from the coil.
>
> Magnetic decay rate does indeed affect drop-out
> time for the relay . . . this was demonstrated in
> the data collected during my bench-top experiments.
> Decay rate adds a time delay between de-energizing
> of the coil and first opening of the contacts.
> However, by the time the contacts see first motion,
> the magnetic air gap is established and growing.
>
> The air gap has much more control over contact
> acceleration than does coil current. Hence, the
> duration of arc between spreading contacts showed
> only a slight difference between diode-suppressed
> and non-suppressed contactor.
>
> The case for 'supper suppressors' is further
> weakened by the fact that starter and battery
> contactors on our airplanes are considered very
> busy if they get a few operations per week.
> The average light aircraft flies 50 hours
> a year. If you install switches and relay rated
> for tens of thousands of operations, it stands to
> reason that benefits gained by going-the-extra-mile
> on coil suppression yields no measurable benefit.
>
> Then, there is the study of contact erosion during
> closure as influenced by the physics of the switched
> circuit. This is due to arcing that occurs during
> contact BOUNCE. Many closures and openings per
> operation . . . much smaller gap during the bounce . . .
> but exceedingly unfriendly to relay life under
> some conditions.
>
> But that's a totally different story . . .
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
Does the risk not lie in having contacts that weld together or overheat?
On 19 Jan 2018 6:49 PM, "Ken Ryan" wrote:
> I'm confused. It seems like you are now saying that because the relays ar
e
> rated for far more cycles than they will ever see, there is no reason to
> bother with diodes.
>
> Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve.
>
> On Jan 19, 2018 7:06 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 04:37 PM 1/18/2018, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2m trying to work out why a diode has *any* sign
ificant effect on
>> release time compared to a tranzorb or similar, and if it did, why you
>> might care.
>> Also, why should it have any effect on relay life reduction ?
>> My skeptical self needs help to get beyond merely =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93m
ore expensive
>> therefore must be better=C3=A2=82=AC .
>>
>>
>>
>> When mechanical contacts are opened, an electric
>> arc forms in the air gap. With low voltages and
>> currents, the fire may be small, but it is never
>> zero. In one of my articles, I mentioned and experiment
>> when a microswitch was biased up with a dry cell
>> and resistor. The contacts were observed
>> through a microscope in the dark (the side was opened
>> up on the switch for the experiment).
>>
>> Even at these very low power levels, a BLUE arc
>> could be observed. The temperature of blue is
>> HOT. This suggests that no matter what the power
>> level, every opening even will transfer molecules
>> of metal between contacts.
>>
>> Again, not a lot of metal but never zero.
>>
>> As energy levels go up and particularly
>> at higher voltages, the intensity and DURATION
>> of the arcing event increases. This is an expected
>> condition. Relays are designed to meet life cycle
>> ratings at specific power levels and circuit
>> characteristics by adjusting contact material,
>> closing forces, opening velocities, opening
>> gaps, etc. Conditions are important . . . switches
>> and relays will have AC, DC and LAMP ratings
>> applied to their service life limits.
>>
>> https://goo.gl/CPtPYJ
>>
>> If you've ever tried to do any stick-welding, you
>> understand the need for (1) making initial cold
>> contact, (2) breaking that contact to form an
>> arc, then maintaining an optimum distance between
>> rod and work-piece to achieve a SUSTAINED fire
>> at a temperature conducive to the TRANSFER
>> of metal from rod to work-piece.
>>
>> If the contacts of a switch or relay do not spread
>> fast enough, wide enough and with sufficient
>> thermal mass in contacts, then the TRANSFER of
>> metal will exceed that which meets design goals
>> for service life.
>>
>> This lays the groundwork for a notion that relay
>> contacts will accelerate open at some rate which is
>> a function of spring, mass and decay of the
>> magnetic field which was originally applied to
>> close the contacts.
>>
>> It's easily demonstrated that rate of decay for
>> this magnetic field is strongly influenced by
>> the choice of suppression for energy stored in
>> the coil at the time it is de-energized.
>>
>> A totally open-circuit coil is the fastest, but
>> transient voltage during field collapse is greatest.
>> You can drive a coil with a current limited source
>> and the throw a dead short across the coil, reducing
>> its excitation current to zero thus initiating
>> the contact opening sequence. In this condition,
>> the field collapse transient voltage will be zero
>> and time to decay will be a whole lot longer.
>> Hence, there is a range of decay rates offered by
>> the array of suppression techniques.
>>
>> I've have yet to discover a paper that describes
>> the behavior of relay magnetic holding force
>> in detail . . . many papers that jump to an
>> 'obvious' conclusion that if decay rate in
>> the coil is extended by factors of 10 or more,
>> then opening velocity of the contacts is similarly
>> depressed.
>>
>> What I observed (in 45 years of herding electrons
>> in airplanes and conducting numerous relay and
>> switch failure studies) is that as a relay closes,
>> the CONTACTS CLOSE before the magnetic armature
>> BOTTOMS OUT. There is a spring rate associated
>> with this extra motion that sets the contact
>> closed holding force.
>>
>> This leads us to the idea that as the magnetic
>> field in the device decays, there is a period
>> of time from first motion the of armature off
>> the bottomed-out position until closing force
>> on the contacts drops to zero and they begin
>> to move. This means that there is a GROWING
>> AIR GAP in the magnetic circuit holding the
>> contacts closed.
>>
>> This air gap has a profound suppressing effect
>> on that magnetic force. It's an effect that
>> grossly over-rides the decay rate of the magnetic
>> from the coil.
>>
>> Magnetic decay rate does indeed affect drop-out
>> time for the relay . . . this was demonstrated in
>> the data collected during my bench-top experiments.
>> Decay rate adds a time delay between de-energizing
>> of the coil and first opening of the contacts.
>> However, by the time the contacts see first motion,
>> the magnetic air gap is established and growing.
>>
>> The air gap has much more control over contact
>> acceleration than does coil current. Hence, the
>> duration of arc between spreading contacts showed
>> only a slight difference between diode-suppressed
>> and non-suppressed contactor.
>>
>> The case for 'supper suppressors' is further
>> weakened by the fact that starter and battery
>> contactors on our airplanes are considered very
>> busy if they get a few operations per week.
>> The average light aircraft flies 50 hours
>> a year. If you install switches and relay rated
>> for tens of thousands of operations, it stands to
>> reason that benefits gained by going-the-extra-mile
>> on coil suppression yields no measurable benefit.
>>
>> Then, there is the study of contact erosion during
>> closure as influenced by the physics of the switched
>> circuit. This is due to arcing that occurs during
>> contact BOUNCE. Many closures and openings per
>> operation . . . much smaller gap during the bounce . . .
>> but exceedingly unfriendly to relay life under
>> some conditions.
>>
>> But that's a totally different story . . .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
| From: | C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com> |
For all intents and purposes the diode ONLY protects the switch that
controls the relay.
So it does improve system reliability.
Ken
On 19/01/2018 11:44 AM, Ken Ryan wrote:
> I'm confused. It seems like you are now saying that because the relays
> are rated for far more cycles than they will ever see, there is no
> reason to bother with diodes.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
I think y'all are a bit confused on what the diodes actually do. The
diode across the relay coil is there to protect the controlling
*switch's* low current contacts; not the relay contacts. Now, since
TANSTAFL (there's no such thing as a free lunch), the downside (of
questionable significance) to the diode being in the circuit is that it
*can* slow the collapse of the magnetic field in the relay, leading some
to think (evidenced by the link to back-to-back zeners) that it puts the
*relay* contacts at more risk.
Not to speak for Bob, but his latest post(s) address that slowing of
the magnetic field collapse (of questionable significance), and tell us
that his testing has shown that with most relays, the contacts don't
actually start to separate until after that slowed magnetic field decay
isn't having any influence.
So....The bottom line is that the diode *is* needed to protect *switch*
contacts, and its presence has *minimal to zero* real world impact on
the *relay's* contacts. The takeaway is that you do need the diode, and
nothing more elaborate than a standard diode is needed.
Those of us who made our living playing with these components have an
easy time seeing what he's describing. It might serve you well to visit
some appliance/electrical repair facility & talk them out of a couple of
open frame relays so you can play with them & see what he's describing.
On 1/19/2018 10:56 AM, Bob Verwey wrote:
> Does the risk not lie in having contacts that weld together or overheat?
>
> On 19 Jan 2018 6:49 PM, "Ken Ryan" > wrote:
>
> I'm confused. It seems like you are now saying that because the
> relays are rated for far more cycles than they will ever see,
> there is no reason to bother with diodes.
>
> Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve.
>
> On Jan 19, 2018 7:06 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> > wrote:
>
> At 04:37 PM 1/18/2018, you wrote:
>> >
>>
>> Im trying to work out why a diode has *any* significant
>> effect on release time compared to a tranzorb or similar, and
>> if it did, why you might care.
>> Also, why should it have any effect on relay life reduction ?
>> My skeptical self needs help to get beyond merely more
>> expensive therefore must be better .
>
>
> When mechanical contacts are opened, an electric
> arc forms in the air gap. With low voltages and
> currents, the fire may be small, but it is never
> zero. In one of my articles, I mentioned and experiment
> when a microswitch was biased up with a dry cell
> and resistor. The contacts were observed
> through a microscope in the dark (the side was opened
> up on the switch for the experiment).
>
> Even at these very low power levels, a BLUE arc
> could be observed. The temperature of blue is
> HOT. This suggests that no matter what the power
> level, every opening even will transfer molecules
> of metal between contacts.
>
> Again, not a lot of metal but never zero.
>
> As energy levels go up and particularly
> at higher voltages, the intensity and DURATION
> of the arcing event increases. This is an expected
> condition. Relays are designed to meet life cycle
> ratings at specific power levels and circuit
> characteristics by adjusting contact material,
> closing forces, opening velocities, opening
> gaps, etc. Conditions are important . . . switches
> and relays will have AC, DC and LAMP ratings
> applied to their service life limits.
>
> https://goo.gl/CPtPYJ
>
> If you've ever tried to do any stick-welding, you
> understand the need for (1) making initial cold
> contact, (2) breaking that contact to form an
> arc, then maintaining an optimum distance between
> rod and work-piece to achieve a SUSTAINED fire
> at a temperature conducive to the TRANSFER
> of metal from rod to work-piece.
>
> If the contacts of a switch or relay do not spread
> fast enough, wide enough and with sufficient
> thermal mass in contacts, then the TRANSFER of
> metal will exceed that which meets design goals
> for service life.
>
> This lays the groundwork for a notion that relay
> contacts will accelerate open at some rate which is
> a function of spring, mass and decay of the
> magnetic field which was originally applied to
> close the contacts.
>
> It's easily demonstrated that rate of decay for
> this magnetic field is strongly influenced by
> the choice of suppression for energy stored in
> the coil at the time it is de-energized.
>
> A totally open-circuit coil is the fastest, but
> transient voltage during field collapse is greatest.
> You can drive a coil with a current limited source
> and the throw a dead short across the coil, reducing
> its excitation current to zero thus initiating
> the contact opening sequence. In this condition,
> the field collapse transient voltage will be zero
> and time to decay will be a whole lot longer.
> Hence, there is a range of decay rates offered by
> the array of suppression techniques.
>
> I've have yet to discover a paper that describes
> the behavior of relay magnetic holding force
> in detail . . . many papers that jump to an
> 'obvious' conclusion that if decay rate in
> the coil is extended by factors of 10 or more,
> then opening velocity of the contacts is similarly
> depressed.
>
> What I observed (in 45 years of herding electrons
> in airplanes and conducting numerous relay and
> switch failure studies) is that as a relay closes,
> the CONTACTS CLOSE before the magnetic armature
> BOTTOMS OUT. There is a spring rate associated
> with this extra motion that sets the contact
> closed holding force.
>
> This leads us to the idea that as the magnetic
> field in the device decays, there is a period
> of time from first motion the of armature off
> the bottomed-out position until closing force
> on the contacts drops to zero and they begin
> to move. This means that there is a GROWING
> AIR GAP in the magnetic circuit holding the
> contacts closed.
>
> This air gap has a profound suppressing effect
> on that magnetic force. It's an effect that
> grossly over-rides the decay rate of the magnetic
> from the coil.
>
> Magnetic decay rate does indeed affect drop-out
> time for the relay . . . this was demonstrated in
> the data collected during my bench-top experiments.
> Decay rate adds a time delay between de-energizing
> of the coil and first opening of the contacts.
> However, by the time the contacts see first motion,
> the magnetic air gap is established and growing.
>
> The air gap has much more control over contact
> acceleration than does coil current. Hence, the
> duration of arc between spreading contacts showed
> only a slight difference between diode-suppressed
> and non-suppressed contactor.
>
> The case for 'supper suppressors' is further
> weakened by the fact that starter and battery
> contactors on our airplanes are considered very
> busy if they get a few operations per week.
> The average light aircraft flies 50 hours
> a year. If you install switches and relay rated
> for tens of thousands of operations, it stands to
> reason that benefits gained by going-the-extra-mile
> on coil suppression yields no measurable benefit.
>
> Then, there is the study of contact erosion during
> closure as influenced by the physics of the switched
> circuit. This is due to arcing that occurs during
> contact BOUNCE. Many closures and openings per
> operation . . . much smaller gap during the bounce . . .
> but exceedingly unfriendly to relay life under
> some conditions.
>
> But that's a totally different story . . .
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
| From: | Eric Jones <emjones(at)charter.net> |
I am reluctant to get into another long discussion on the subject of
coil suppression but I encourage Googling the various extensive
resources on this subject.
Note that there are many techniques tuned to specific application on
this subject, but three things are true:
1) The use of a simple diode is contraindicated.
2) The use of a simple bidirectional zener is a good way to go.
3) MOVs are a good way to go, but they have a discrete lifetime...I was
never comfortable with that. MOVs are usually what fails in
surge-suppression computer multi-outlets.
One COULD use a zener and a regular diode in series, but a bidirectional
zener is polarity insensitive and stone simple.
Kilovac and Gigavac both use bidirectional zeners inside their
contactors for coil supression. What does these people know that you don't?
Eric
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
Thanks Charlie. That does clear things up for me as to what Bob was saying.
I am no longer confused (temporary condition I am sure).
Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve.
On Jan 19, 2018 8:26 AM, "Charlie England" wrote:
> I think y'all are a bit confused on what the diodes actually do. The diod
e
> across the relay coil is there to protect the controlling *switch's* low
> current contacts; not the relay contacts. Now, since TANSTAFL (there's no
> such thing as a free lunch), the downside (of questionable significance)
> to the diode being in the circuit is that it *can* slow the collapse of t
he
> magnetic field in the relay, leading some to think (evidenced by the link
> to back-to-back zeners) that it puts the *relay* contacts at more risk.
>
> Not to speak for Bob, but his latest post(s) address that slowing of the
> magnetic field collapse (of questionable significance), and tell us that
> his testing has shown that with most relays, the contacts don't actually
> start to separate until after that slowed magnetic field decay isn't havi
ng
> any influence.
>
> So....The bottom line is that the diode *is* needed to protect *switch*
> contacts, and its presence has *minimal to zero* real world impact on the
> *relay's* contacts. The takeaway is that you do need the diode, and nothi
ng
> more elaborate than a standard diode is needed.
>
> Those of us who made our living playing with these components have an eas
y
> time seeing what he's describing. It might serve you well to visit some
> appliance/electrical repair facility & talk them out of a couple of open
> frame relays so you can play with them & see what he's describing.
>
> On 1/19/2018 10:56 AM, Bob Verwey wrote:
>
> Does the risk not lie in having contacts that weld together or overheat?
>
> On 19 Jan 2018 6:49 PM, "Ken Ryan" wrote:
>
>> I'm confused. It seems like you are now saying that because the relays
>> are rated for far more cycles than they will ever see, there is no reaso
n
>> to bother with diodes.
>>
>> Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve.
>>
>> On Jan 19, 2018 7:06 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <
>> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>>
>>> At 04:37 PM 1/18/2018, you wrote:
>>>
>
>>>
>>> I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2m trying to work out why a diode has *any* sig
nificant effect on
>>> release time compared to a tranzorb or similar, and if it did, why you
>>> might care.
>>> Also, why should it have any effect on relay life reduction ?
>>> My skeptical self needs help to get beyond merely =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93
more expensive
>>> therefore must be better=C3=A2=82=AC .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> When mechanical contacts are opened, an electric
>>> arc forms in the air gap. With low voltages and
>>> currents, the fire may be small, but it is never
>>> zero. In one of my articles, I mentioned and experiment
>>> when a microswitch was biased up with a dry cell
>>> and resistor. The contacts were observed
>>> through a microscope in the dark (the side was opened
>>> up on the switch for the experiment).
>>>
>>> Even at these very low power levels, a BLUE arc
>>> could be observed. The temperature of blue is
>>> HOT. This suggests that no matter what the power
>>> level, every opening even will transfer molecules
>>> of metal between contacts.
>>>
>>> Again, not a lot of metal but never zero.
>>>
>>> As energy levels go up and particularly
>>> at higher voltages, the intensity and DURATION
>>> of the arcing event increases. This is an expected
>>> condition. Relays are designed to meet life cycle
>>> ratings at specific power levels and circuit
>>> characteristics by adjusting contact material,
>>> closing forces, opening velocities, opening
>>> gaps, etc. Conditions are important . . . switches
>>> and relays will have AC, DC and LAMP ratings
>>> applied to their service life limits.
>>>
>>> https://goo.gl/CPtPYJ
>>>
>>> If you've ever tried to do any stick-welding, you
>>> understand the need for (1) making initial cold
>>> contact, (2) breaking that contact to form an
>>> arc, then maintaining an optimum distance between
>>> rod and work-piece to achieve a SUSTAINED fire
>>> at a temperature conducive to the TRANSFER
>>> of metal from rod to work-piece.
>>>
>>> If the contacts of a switch or relay do not spread
>>> fast enough, wide enough and with sufficient
>>> thermal mass in contacts, then the TRANSFER of
>>> metal will exceed that which meets design goals
>>> for service life.
>>>
>>> This lays the groundwork for a notion that relay
>>> contacts will accelerate open at some rate which is
>>> a function of spring, mass and decay of the
>>> magnetic field which was originally applied to
>>> close the contacts.
>>>
>>> It's easily demonstrated that rate of decay for
>>> this magnetic field is strongly influenced by
>>> the choice of suppression for energy stored in
>>> the coil at the time it is de-energized.
>>>
>>> A totally open-circuit coil is the fastest, but
>>> transient voltage during field collapse is greatest.
>>> You can drive a coil with a current limited source
>>> and the throw a dead short across the coil, reducing
>>> its excitation current to zero thus initiating
>>> the contact opening sequence. In this condition,
>>> the field collapse transient voltage will be zero
>>> and time to decay will be a whole lot longer.
>>> Hence, there is a range of decay rates offered by
>>> the array of suppression techniques.
>>>
>>> I've have yet to discover a paper that describes
>>> the behavior of relay magnetic holding force
>>> in detail . . . many papers that jump to an
>>> 'obvious' conclusion that if decay rate in
>>> the coil is extended by factors of 10 or more,
>>> then opening velocity of the contacts is similarly
>>> depressed.
>>>
>>> What I observed (in 45 years of herding electrons
>>> in airplanes and conducting numerous relay and
>>> switch failure studies) is that as a relay closes,
>>> the CONTACTS CLOSE before the magnetic armature
>>> BOTTOMS OUT. There is a spring rate associated
>>> with this extra motion that sets the contact
>>> closed holding force.
>>>
>>> This leads us to the idea that as the magnetic
>>> field in the device decays, there is a period
>>> of time from first motion the of armature off
>>> the bottomed-out position until closing force
>>> on the contacts drops to zero and they begin
>>> to move. This means that there is a GROWING
>>> AIR GAP in the magnetic circuit holding the
>>> contacts closed.
>>>
>>> This air gap has a profound suppressing effect
>>> on that magnetic force. It's an effect that
>>> grossly over-rides the decay rate of the magnetic
>>> from the coil.
>>>
>>> Magnetic decay rate does indeed affect drop-out
>>> time for the relay . . . this was demonstrated in
>>> the data collected during my bench-top experiments.
>>> Decay rate adds a time delay between de-energizing
>>> of the coil and first opening of the contacts.
>>> However, by the time the contacts see first motion,
>>> the magnetic air gap is established and growing.
>>>
>>> The air gap has much more control over contact
>>> acceleration than does coil current. Hence, the
>>> duration of arc between spreading contacts showed
>>> only a slight difference between diode-suppressed
>>> and non-suppressed contactor.
>>>
>>> The case for 'supper suppressors' is further
>>> weakened by the fact that starter and battery
>>> contactors on our airplanes are considered very
>>> busy if they get a few operations per week.
>>> The average light aircraft flies 50 hours
>>> a year. If you install switches and relay rated
>>> for tens of thousands of operations, it stands to
>>> reason that benefits gained by going-the-extra-mile
>>> on coil suppression yields no measurable benefit.
>>>
>>> Then, there is the study of contact erosion during
>>> closure as influenced by the physics of the switched
>>> circuit. This is due to arcing that occurs during
>>> contact BOUNCE. Many closures and openings per
>>> operation . . . much smaller gap during the bounce . . .
>>> but exceedingly unfriendly to relay life under
>>> some conditions.
>>>
>>> But that's a totally different story . . .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob . . .
>>>
>>
>
>
> Virus-free
.
> www.avast.com
>
> <#m_-9065681909408129575_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
At 10:44 AM 1/19/2018, you wrote:
>I'm confused. It seems like you are now saying that because the
>relays are rated for far more cycles than they will ever see, there
>is no reason to bother with diodes.
No . . . .
I am saying that 'optimized' coil spike suppression
has a perhaps a tiny benefit for contactors in
heavy usage applications and no benefit in our
airplanes (very low duty).
Spike suppression is (and always has been) indicated
for enhancing LIFE OF THE DEVICE THAT CONTROLS
the contactor. E.g. AD against key-switch. The
plain-vanilla diodes have been installed on TC aircraft
for decades. See item 29 in screenshot of 1969
C172 service manual. Couldn't put my hands on my
copy of the Beechjet manual . . . but the little
critters are sprinkled about that airplane as well.
Emacs!
The diode has (1) no practical effect on service life
of contactor and (2) demonstrable benefit on service life
of the controlling switch . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
At 10:56 AM 1/19/2018, you wrote:
>Does the risk not lie in having contacts that weld together or overheat?
Contacts 'weld' on closure. The risk of welding
begins with deformation of contact surfaces due
to combinations of age and service conditions (extra
ordinary inrush current), low energizing current.
Contact welding can also be a function of unanticipated
behaviors due to aircraft wiring. See this study on
'sticking' roll trim relays on the Beechjet:
https://goo.gl/QcfSYo
Spike suppression on the at-risk relay/contactor
has no effect on conditions that promote contact
sticking/welding.
'Overheating' contacts are either too small for
the service or so badly worn as to degrade
conductivity across the contacts.
https://goo.gl/1BJP7y
Note that this victim of severe overheat still
carries remains of its coil suppression diode.
This contactor was used to control power to a
3 horsepower, 28v motor used in the air conditioning
system of a King Air. The diode was there . . .
but the contactor simply got 'tired'.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
>
>Kilovac and Gigavac both use bidirectional zeners inside their
>contactors for coil supression. What does these people know that you don't?
Not a thing I can see . . . the bidirectional zener
performs as advertised. No reason to avoid it or to change
it out in favor of an alternative.
By the same token, there's no demonstrable benefit
for any extra effort to steer clear of
the lowly diode that has also performed as advertised
in literally billions of applications for a
very long time.
My complaint is with publications that make
sweeping assertions that are demonstrably
short on physical evidence or experimental
confirmation.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | suppression diodes |
on a similar subject to recent discussion, why dont we use a suppression device
across the load of the starter contactor (i.e. the motor) to prevent arcing at
the contactor contacts?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
I was wondering the same thing Bob so I had a look, no fuse or breaker in
that line. I guess the builder thought it didn't need one since it connects
to ground 8(. I think I should install an inline fuse?
Thank you,
Sebastien
On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 8:07 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 07:09 PM 1/18/2018, you wrote:
>
> Last year I put a lighter AGM battery in my aircraft and moved it to the
> firewall along with the master contactor and made some new diodes for the
> contactors (one was broken). Saved about 4 pounds in wiring alone! Only
> problem afterwards was that if the battery was even slightly down sometimes
> the starter would turn a split second and then nothing. Repeated attempts
> usually ended up with the starter eventually running fine until the engine
> started. Putting a voltmeter on the starter confirmed that the problem was
> a lack of power to the starter, not the starter itself. I had a battery
> problem later on and replaced the battery, no change. Thinking I had messed
> up the starter contactor while tightening nuts on it I swapped it out, no
> change. At this point I started to suspect my diode so I disconnected it:
> Problem gone! I suspect I installed it backwards. Going to make the new one
> with clear shrinkwrap tubing so it can't happen again.
>
>
> If your diode is installed backwards, it will conduct
> HARD while the starter button is depressed. Plastic
> diodes generally smoke for a few seconds and split,
> some will literally explode. I've seen a few cases
> where they simply fused short and tripped the starter
> control circuit breaker.
>
> If removing the diode cured your problem, then it
> probably was 'backwards'. Do you have a breaker
> or fuse on your starter control line? That shorted condition
> should have opened the circuit protection.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: diode on starter contactor |
At 09:12 PM 1/19/2018, you wrote:
>I was wondering the same thing Bob so I had a look, no fuse or
>breaker in that line. I guess the builder thought it didn't need one
>since it connects to ground 8(. I think I should install an inline fuse?
Not sure which 'same thing' you're citing . . .
Fuse in which line, bust thru starter button to starer contactor
or battery to starter contactor?
The CONTROL line from bus to starter switch is
classically protected. No protection is indicated
for the cranking current feeder from battery to
starter contactor.
Suggest you browse the various power distribution
diagrams (Z-figures) at https://goo.gl/kovZJX
While these cover a broad range of applications,
there are features common to all of them that
illustrate both legacy and modern but field
proven techniques for architecture.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: suppression diodes |
At 02:04 PM 1/19/2018, you wrote:
>
>on a similar subject to recent discussion, why
>don=99t we use a suppression device across the
>load of the starter contactor (i.e. the motor)
>to prevent arcing at the contactor contacts?
Excellent question!
Shucks, starters draw a lot of current. If one
just 'tapped' the starter button and hit the
contactor with the starter's 500-1000A inrush, doesn't
that 'charge' the starter's inductance to astronomical
heights?
You betcha . . .
Let's consider a turbine starter motor with a dc
resistance of say 0.015 ohms. Let us presume
further that the loop resistance for wiring,
battery contactor, starter contactor and battery
is also on the order 0.010 ohms.
When the contactor closes, we have 25v/0.025-ohms
or 1000 amps of inrush current. Terminal voltage
on starter drops to 15v.
Energy stored on an inductor is Joules(Watt-Seconds)=Inductance
(Henries) x I(Amps)squared/2
Needless to say, 1000 squared is a pretty big
number. If the starter contactor bounces during the
first few milliseconds of the spin-up, the potential
for arcing is considerable, but the air gap during
a bounce is tiny; the discontinuity interval is short.
Heat energy developed is relatively low and within the
operating limits for dime-sized contacts. Any transient
excursions for field collapse are impressed across the
contact gap and do not propagate out onto the bus.
Once the bouncing has subsided and the motor spins
up, current draw falls dramatically. Here's a plot
I found in some document out at Beech about a bazillion
years ago: https://goo.gl/4cL4ff
It's the voltage-current vs. time plot of a cranking
event on a turbine engine . . . more specifically,
a B400 Beechjet. Turbine cranking curves are interesting
because the engine takes so long to spin up . . . it
doesn't get to the 'light off' rpm for 15-20 second!
We can readily see that starter current at light-off
has fallen to under 300 amps, about 30% of inrush.
At 300 amps across the motor's 0.015 ohms, we can
see that the motor is actually RUNNING on Volts
300A x 0.015Ohms or about 4.5 volts. At this time,
voltage applied to the motor is 18-19 volts.
This means that the motor's COUNTER EMF or CEMF
is 18-4.5 or about 13.5 volts.
If the battery contactor opens at this point, the
initial arc striking voltage is 4.5 volts and the
current is 300A. A much lower value than the numbers
during inrush. At 300A, stored energy on the starter's
inductance is about 10% of that experienced during
the inrush event.
As it turns out, it's quite easy to build contactors
that are tailored to withstand the inrush event.
See https://goo.gl/RGGhgG
The flimsy looking flat moving contact has
very low area, high force interface with the
stationary contacts. i.e. HIGH PRESSURE
Further, its mass is low and spring rates are
low to minimize bounce. The intermittent duty,
high force solenoid offers strong reduction
of contact erosion during the starter inrush
interval . . . similarly, the light mass of the
moving contact assembly offers rapid acceleration
and good contact spreading velocities at de-energization.
The design has TWO contact in series which means that
during the opening sequence, contact spreading velocity
is essentially doubled.
This design minimizes potential arc damage to the
contacts as the magnetic field in the motor
collapses. Again, the energy is expended in the contact
gaps and does not propagate out onto the bus.
This last fact was not well understood by many in
the vehicular DC power system world . . . it seemed
only natural that this energy intensive event at
the starter motor would produce massive 'spikes'
potentially deleterious to vulnerable electronics
in the vehicle . . . it has been proven not to
be so. It turns out that ALL known and anticipated
perturbations on the ship's bus for ALL operating
conditions are well inside the legacy testing
limits for aircraft hardware as described in DO-160.
See https://goo.gl/6gSsSL
Hence, the starter motor is not the big bear in the
woods that legacy hangar lore would have us believe.
It IS a high energy even easily managed by the starter
contactor design and not a threat to the rest of the system.
So if an avionics tech says you've got a $1000 repair
bill on an in-warranty radio because a 'spike got it',
you need to talk to his/her supervisor.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fuel Totalizer Circuit |
| From: | "sturs" <stu.rscott(at)gmail.com> |
A friend of mine is having an issue with the fuel totalizer on his aircraft. Basically
it doesn't work (is dead) and seems that it may have suffered from a voltage
spike whilst starting the a/c from a boost starter.
Fault finding would be much easier if anyone has access to a circuit diagram of
the device. Does anyone on here know where to find one? We have the user manual
- but that only shows the external wiring to the power and transducer. It's
a Hoskins Model FT101A.
Any help would be very much appreciated. Thanks for reading this.
Stuart
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477495#477495
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Totalizer Circuit |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Download this pdf:
https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/5fd0aa27-961d-44f2-853d-76b9736fb4af/downloads/1bono4lcn_734052.pdf
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477496#477496
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Totalizer Circuit |
| From: | "sturs" <stu.rscott(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Joe,
Yes, that's the one we've already got - but thanks anyway. The problem is there's
clearly a fault on the circuit board somewhere - and I don't think I can find
it without a circuit diagram.
Cheers, Stu
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477499#477499
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | fuel pressure sensor |
I have a fuel pressure sender -- UMA N1EU07D -- for my Rotax 914. It is a
differential sensor that senses fuel pressure and airbox pressure, and
reports the difference.
The wiring that comes with the sensor is a 3 wire shielded pigtail that is
about a foot long. The 3 wires are 12v power, ground and signal.
To connect this to my Dynon Skyview EMS module I will need to strip it back
a few inches in order to accommodate a 37 pin plug, leaving about 8 inches
of shielded bundle running from the sensor housing to the 37 pin plug. None
of the wires on the pre-made Dynon harness are shielded. The Dynon manual
makes no mention of utilizing the shield.
The shielded wire would only be about 8 inches long, or less, from the
sensor to the 37 pin plug. The remainder of the run (approximately 18
inches) is unshielded.
I cannot see any reason to utilize the shield that comes with the sensor.
Am I correct?
Thanks,
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: fuel pressure sensor |
At 11:21 AM 1/22/2018, you wrote:
>I have a fuel pressure sender -- UMA=C2 N1EU07D --
>for my Rotax 914. It is a differential sensor
>that senses fuel pressure and airbox pressure, and reports the difference.
>
>The wiring that comes with the sensor is a 3
>wire shielded pigtail that is about a foot long.
>The 3 wires are 12v power, ground and signal.
>
>To connect this to my Dynon Skyview EMS module I
>will need to strip it back a few inches in order
>to accommodate a 37 pin plug, leaving about 8
>inches of shielded bundle running from the
>sensor housing to the 37 pin plug. None of the
>wires on the pre-made Dynon harness are
>shielded. The Dynon manual makes no mention of utilizing the shield.
>
>The shielded wire would only be about 8 inches
>long, or less, from the sensor to the 37 pin
>plug. The remainder of the run (approximately 18 inches) is unshielded.
>
>I cannot see any reason to utilize the shield
>that comes with the sensor. Am I correct?
No reason to think otherwise . . . these
signals are generally not vulnerable to
electrostatically coupled antagonists . . .
further, it's unlikely that any such antagonists
will be found sharing the wire bundles.
I think you can move ahead . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net |
| Subject: | Re: fuel pressure sensor |
HiKen;
HiAll;
I am going to go way out on a limb here: I have a different fuel pressure sender,
that is not shielded, provided by Swift that also makes gauges. There is a
possibility that your manufacturer only used shielded wire because of its durability.
Presuming that you have already tried to talk with the manufacturer and
gotten no joy, I would try it without shielding the remainder of the run and
see what happens. If that fails, you can buy shielding in flattened tubes that
can be put over the unshielded bundle, connected to the sensor shield and grounded
at the far end. I have some extra 3/8" ID if you want to give it a try;
no charge.
Cheers! Stu.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Ryan" <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 9:21:24 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: fuel pressure sensor
I have a fuel pressure sender -- UMA N1EU07D -- for my Rotax 914. It is a differential
sensor that senses fuel pressure and airbox pressure, and reports the
difference.
The wiring that comes with the sensor is a 3 wire shielded pigtail that is about
a foot long. The 3 wires are 12v power, ground and signal.
To connect this to my Dynon Skyview EMS module I will need to strip it back a few
inches in order to accommodate a 37 pin plug, leaving about 8 inches of shielded
bundle running from the sensor housing to the 37 pin plug. None of the wires
on the pre-made Dynon harness are shielded. The Dynon manual makes no mention
of utilizing the shield.
The shielded wire would only be about 8 inches long, or less, from the sensor to
the 37 pin plug. The remainder of the run (approximately 18 inches) is unshielded.
I cannot see any reason to utilize the shield that comes with the sensor. Am I
correct?
Thanks,
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: fuel pressure sensor |
Thanks everybody.
On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 8:39 AM, wrote:
> HiKen;
> HiAll;
> I am going to go way out on a limb here: I have a different fuel pressure
> sender, that is not shielded, provided by Swift that also makes gauges.
> There is a possibility that your manufacturer only used shielded wire
> because of its durability. Presuming that you have already tried to talk
> with the manufacturer and gotten no joy, I would try it without shielding
> the remainder of the run and see what happens. If that fails, you can buy
> shielding in flattened tubes that can be put over the unshielded bundle,
> connected to the sensor shield and grounded at the far end. I have some
> extra 3/8" ID if you want to give it a try; no charge.
> Cheers! Stu.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From: *"Ken Ryan" <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
> *To: *aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Sent: *Monday, January 22, 2018 9:21:24 AM
> *Subject: *AeroElectric-List: fuel pressure sensor
>
> I have a fuel pressure sender -- UMA N1EU07D -- for my Rotax 914. It is a
> differential sensor that senses fuel pressure and airbox pressure, and
> reports the difference.
>
> The wiring that comes with the sensor is a 3 wire shielded pigtail that is
> about a foot long. The 3 wires are 12v power, ground and signal.
>
> To connect this to my Dynon Skyview EMS module I will need to strip it
> back a few inches in order to accommodate a 37 pin plug, leaving about 8
> inches of shielded bundle running from the sensor housing to the 37 pin
> plug. None of the wires on the pre-made Dynon harness are shielded. The
> Dynon manual makes no mention of utilizing the shield.
>
> The shielded wire would only be about 8 inches long, or less, from the
> sensor to the 37 pin plug. The remainder of the run (approximately 18
> inches) is unshielded.
>
> I cannot see any reason to utilize the shield that comes with the sensor.
> Am I correct?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ken
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Totalizer Circuit |
| From: | Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com> |
Don't have the diagram, but I think I have a removed-good unit in my
hangar...
Paul
On 1/22/2018 2:12 AM, sturs wrote:
>
> A friend of mine is having an issue with the fuel totalizer on his aircraft.
Basically it doesn't work (is dead) and seems that it may have suffered from a
voltage spike whilst starting the a/c from a boost starter.
>
> Fault finding would be much easier if anyone has access to a circuit diagram
of the device. Does anyone on here know where to find one? We have the user manual
- but that only shows the external wiring to the power and transducer. It's
a Hoskins Model FT101A.
>
> Any help would be very much appreciated. Thanks for reading this.
>
> Stuart
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477495#477495
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Totalizer Circuit |
| From: | "sturs" <stu.rscott(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks Paul. My friend already has a replacement - which took him a long time to
find. Mind you hes rather unwilling to take the new one apart and use that as
an example to check against the other!
Thanks for the offer, though. Much appreciated.
Cheers, Stu
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477507#477507
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Springer <ron228rj(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | SD-8 Alternator Question |
When I bought my plane, which has an SD-8 alternator as the primary power
source, it came with an inline fuse on one of the two leads from the
alternator.
The guy who installed it said it was an 8 amp alternator so he added a 10
amp inline fuse. But, I believe it provides 8 amps at 14 volts after
regulation and the voltage where the fuse is installed is something like
20-25 volts AC. So, the max current there would probably be a bit less than
8 amps anyway, right?
Regardless, it has never blown, but I am wondering if it is even serving a
useful purpose other than to increase the number of electrical connections
in my plane?
Thanks,
Ron
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com> |
| Subject: | SD-8 Alternator Question |
My chief engineer here at work always says the fuse is there to protect
the wire.keeps the smoke innot the equipment
at the end.
I have the same setup on my standby and I think that is what they gave
me in the kit.
Rene'
801-721-6080
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Springer
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 2:37 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 Alternator Question
When I bought my plane, which has an SD-8 alternator as the primary
power source, it came with an inline fuse on one of the two leads from
the alternator.
The guy who installed it said it was an 8 amp alternator so he added a
10 amp inline fuse. But, I believe it provides 8 amps at 14 volts after
regulation and the voltage where the fuse is installed is something like
20-25 volts AC. So, the max current there would probably be a bit less
than 8 amps anyway, right?
Regardless, it has never blown, but I am wondering if it is even serving
a useful purpose other than to increase the number of electrical
connections in my plane?
Thanks,
Ron
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Pengilly" <Peter(at)sportingaero.com> |
| Subject: | SD-8 Alternator Question |
See this wiring diagram =93 shows a 15 amp fuse.
http://www.bandc.aero/pdfs/504-500%20REV%20I.pdf
Peter
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Springer
Sent: 23 January 2018 21:37
Subject: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 Alternator Question
When I bought my plane, which has an SD-8 alternator as the primary
power source, it came with an inline fuse on one of the two leads from
the alternator.
The guy who installed it said it was an 8 amp alternator so he added a
10 amp inline fuse. But, I believe it provides 8 amps at 14 volts after
regulation and the voltage where the fuse is installed is something like
20-25 volts AC. So, the max current there would probably be a bit less
than 8 amps anyway, right?
Regardless, it has never blown, but I am wondering if it is even serving
a useful purpose other than to increase the number of electrical
connections in my plane?
Thanks,
Ron
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Springer <ron228rj(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: SD-8 Alternator Question |
Thanks! I didn't know that it was standard to include the fuse in one of
the wires. The person I bought the plane from made it sound like it was his
idea. The 10 amp size seems to work fine for the SD-8. The wiring diagram
applies to three alternators, including ones that are larger than the SD-8,
which is probably why it calls for the 15 amp fuse.
Ron
On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 5:43 PM, Peter Pengilly
wrote:
> See this wiring diagram =93 shows a 15 amp fuse.
>
>
> http://www.bandc.aero/pdfs/504-500%20REV%20I.pdf
>
>
> Peter
>
>
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Ron Springer
> *Sent:* 23 January 2018 21:37
> *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: SD-8 Alternator Question
>
>
> When I bought my plane, which has an SD-8 alternator as the primary power
> source, it came with an inline fuse on one of the two leads from the
> alternator.
>
> The guy who installed it said it was an 8 amp alternator so he added a 10
> amp inline fuse. But, I believe it provides 8 amps at 14 volts after
> regulation and the voltage where the fuse is installed is something like
> 20-25 volts AC. So, the max current there would probably be a bit less th
an
> 8 amps anyway, right?
>
> Regardless, it has never blown, but I am wondering if it is even serving
a
> useful purpose other than to increase the number of electrical connection
s
> in my plane?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ron
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net |
| Subject: | Re: SD-8 Alternator Question |
Hi Peter;
Hi Ron;
The drawing shows a ten amp fuse for an SD-8 alternator.
Cheers! Stu.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Pengilly" <Peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 2:43:56 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 Alternator Question
See this wiring diagram =93 shows a 15 amp fuse.
http://www.bandc.aero/pdfs/504-500%20REV%20I.pdf
Peter
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr
ic-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Springer
Sent: 23 January 2018 21:37
Subject: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 Alternator Question
When I bought my plane, which has an SD-8 alternator as the primary power s
ource, it came with an inline fuse on one of the two leads from the alterna
tor.
The guy who installed it said it was an 8 amp alternator so he added a 10 a
mp inline fuse. But, I believe it provides 8 amps at 14 volts after regulat
ion and the voltage where the fuse is installed is something like 20-25 vol
ts AC. So, the max current there would probably be a bit less than 8 amps a
nyway, right?
Regardless, it has never blown, but I am wondering if it is even serving a
useful purpose other than to increase the number of electrical connections
in my plane?
Thanks,
Ron
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: SD-8 Alternator Question |
At 03:37 PM 1/23/2018, you wrote:
>When I bought my plane, which has an SD-8 alternator as the primary
>power source, it came with an inline fuse on one of the two leads
>from the alternator.
>
>The guy who installed it said it was an 8 amp alternator so he added
>a 10 amp inline fuse. But, I believe it provides 8 amps at 14 volts
>after regulation and the voltage where the fuse is installed is
>something like 20-25 volts AC. So, the max current there would
>probably be a bit less than 8 amps anyway, right?
>
>Regardless, it has never blown, but I am wondering if it is even
>serving a useful purpose other than to increase the number of
>electrical connections in my plane?
The SD-8, under some conditions, is capable of 10A
of output. A fuse should be sized for at least 1.5
times the expected continuous load . . . 2x or
3x is not unreasonable giving the very fast action
of a fuse versus circuit breaker.
If the SD-8 feeder is 14AWG or larger, a 20A
fuse is the better choice . . . 30A would not
be out of line.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: SD-8 Alternator Question (OOPS) |
At 08:06 PM 1/23/2018, you wrote:
>At 03:37 PM 1/23/2018, you wrote:
>>When I bought my plane, which has an SD-8 alternator as the primary
>>power source, it came with an inline fuse on one of the two leads
>>from the alternator.
>>
>>The guy who installed it said it was an 8 amp alternator so he
>>added a 10 amp inline fuse. But, I believe it provides 8 amps at 14
>>volts after regulation and the voltage where the fuse is installed
>>is something like 20-25 volts AC. So, the max current there would
>>probably be a bit less than 8 amps anyway, right?
>>
>>Regardless, it has never blown, but I am wondering if it is even
>>serving a useful purpose other than to increase the number of
>>electrical connections in my plane?
>
>
> The SD-8, under some conditions, is capable of 10A
> of output. A fuse should be sized for at least 1.5
> times the expected continuous load . . . 2x or
> 3x is not unreasonable giving the very fast action
> of a fuse versus circuit breaker.
>
> If the SD-8 feeder is 14AWG or larger, a 20A
> fuse is the better choice . . . 30A would not
> be out of line.
Hit the 'send' button too soon. The short
answer to your question: That feeder should
be protected. If you've not experienced a
nuisance trip of the 10A fuse, then there's
no pressing need to fiddle with it. If you
DO experience a nuisance trip in the future,
and upsize is indicated, I'd go for 20A
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: SD-8 Alternator Question |
| From: | "Airdog77" <Airdog77(at)gmail.com> |
Bob,
I believe you're referring to the fuse on the main connection to the battery contactor
from the S704-1 relay?
And Stu is referring to the SD-8 connection to the power bus, not the inline fuse
depicted on one of the two alternator leads shown on the B&C diagram.
I too have questions on whether this 15A fuse should be included, but figured since
Bob depicts it twice without it --both in the Z-13/8 and Z-25 diagrams that
include a bridge rectifier (that B&C doesn't) for self excitation-- then it
wasn't required.
Bob, can you confirm whether the 15A fuse at the actual SD-8 alternator feed is
required or not if the self excitation feature is employed?
Regards,
Wade
--------
Airdog
Wade Parton
Building Long-EZ N916WP
www.longezpush.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477529#477529
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: SD-8 Alternator Question |
At 09:06 AM 1/24/2018, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>
>I believe you're referring to the fuse on the main connection to the
>battery contactor from the S704-1 relay?
>
>And Stu is referring to the SD-8 connection to the power bus, not
>the inline fuse depicted on one of the two alternator leads shown on
>the B&C diagram.
>
>I too have questions on whether this 15A fuse should be included,
>but figured since Bob depicts it twice without it --both in the
>Z-13/8 and Z-25 diagrams that include a bridge rectifier (that B&C
>doesn't) for self excitation-- then it wasn't required.
>
>Bob, can you confirm whether the 15A fuse at the actual SD-8
>alternator feed is required or not if the self excitation feature is employed?
Good eye! I'd forgotten about that fuse being
added some years ago. It's a good idea. One of
the failure modes for the rectifier/regulator
places a dead short on the SD-8 output. The fuse
keeps the dynamo from smoking. The RMS current
flowing out of the dynamo is about the same as
the DC output current from the rectifier/regulator.
This is a duty-cycle switched series regulator
with no energy-storage . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: SD-8 Alternator Question |
| From: | "Airdog77" <Airdog77(at)gmail.com> |
Bob,
Thanks for confirming that fuse should be installed. I literally just bolted my
SD-8 to the vacuum pad during my engine build yesterday, so now I'll plan on
adding back in that inline fuse.
Ron- Thanks for asking the question.... perfect timing!
Regards,
Wade
--------
Airdog
Wade Parton
Building Long-EZ N916WP
www.longezpush.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477557#477557
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ron Springer <ron228rj(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: SD-8 Alternator Question |
No problem. Thanks Bob!
Ron
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 9:06 PM, Airdog77 wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> Thanks for confirming that fuse should be installed. I literally just
> bolted my SD-8 to the vacuum pad during my engine build yesterday, so now
> I'll plan on adding back in that inline fuse.
>
> Ron- Thanks for asking the question.... perfect timing!
>
> Regards,
> Wade
>
> --------
> Airdog
> Wade Parton
> Building Long-EZ N916WP
> www.longezpush.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Starter Contactor location on a Long-EZ |
| From: | "Airdog77" <Airdog77(at)gmail.com> |
Bob, et al.
BACKGROUND: I was doing some research on Brian DeFord's Cozy that burned up on
the ramp some years back due to an electrical issue with the starting/charging
system (i.e. electrical wires through the firewall). That led me to some info
where a number of canard builders are mounting their STARTER contactors on the
cold/forward side of the fireall (again, these are pushers).
After assessing it, I like the idea of not having my big power cable --coming from
the BATTERY contactor up front-- traversing the firewall. The net result
of moving the starter contactor to the cold/forward side of the firewall would
be that only 2 wires/cables (6 AWG starter wire & 18 AWG ALT B lead) would then
require traversing the firewall versus 5 wire/cables if I leave the starter
contactor on the hot/aft side of the firewall... the big bubba cable from the
battery contactor of course being one of those 5 traversing wires/cables.
The physical location change would require about 1-2" longer runs for the starter
cable and B-lead wire, which to me seems minimal and non-issue. I do however
want to ask for a crosscheck on this plan to ensure I'm not missing any possible
critical issue(s).
Thanks,
Wade
--------
Airdog
Wade Parton
Building Long-EZ N916WP
www.longezpush.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477604#477604
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor location on a Long-EZ |
At 12:12 PM 1/26/2018, you wrote:
>
>Bob, et al.
>
>BACKGROUND: I was doing some research on Brian DeFord's Cozy that
>burned up on the ramp some years back due to an electrical issue
>with the starting/charging system (i.e. electrical wires through the
>firewall). That led me to some info where a number of canard
>builders are mounting their STARTER contactors on the cold/forward
>side of the fireall (again, these are pushers).
>
>After assessing it, I like the idea of not having my big power cable
>--coming from the BATTERY contactor up front-- traversing the
>firewall. The net result of moving the starter contactor to the
>cold/forward side of the firewall would be that only 2 wires/cables
>(6 AWG starter wire & 18 AWG ALT B lead) would then require
>traversing the firewall versus 5 wire/cables if I leave the starter
>contactor on the hot/aft side of the firewall... the big bubba cable
>from the battery contactor of course being one of those 5 traversing
>wires/cables.
>
>The physical location change would require about 1-2" longer runs
>for the starter cable and B-lead wire, which to me seems minimal and
>non-issue. I do however want to ask for a crosscheck on this plan
>to ensure I'm not missing any possible critical issue(s).
>
The battery side of the starter contactor is the
power node for starter, alternator b-lead, and any
other hi-current accessory that might find its
way under the cowl . . . so in any case, there
is potential for always hot wires to cross the
firewall irrespective of contactor location.
The more fundamental questions would investigate
techniques for bringing any power/fluid/control
line through the firewall. There's over a century
of lessons-learned and documented design
practices that should have kept this conversation
from happening in the first place.
If it were my airplane, the contactor would be on
the engine side of the firewall.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor location on a Long-EZ |
| From: | "Airdog77" <Airdog77(at)gmail.com> |
Bob,
Roger... I'll go back and take a deeper look at all this.
Thanks!
Wade
--------
Airdog
Wade Parton
Building Long-EZ N916WP
www.longezpush.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477611#477611
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Parent Lefebvre" <chappyd(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | =?utf-8?B?VGhlIHdvcmxkJ3MgdHJhdmVsIHNlYXJjaCBlbmdpbmUgU2t5c2Nhbm5lciBjb21wYXJlcyBtaWxsaW9ucyBvZiBmbGlnaHRzIHRvIGZpbmQgeW91IHRoZSBjaGVhcGVzdCBkZWFsLCBmYXN0Lg==? |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor location on a Long-EZ |
At 05:08 PM 1/26/2018, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>
>Roger... I'll go back and take a deeper look at all this.
Is there a published failure analysis of
what transpired in the unhappy event?
A significant proportion of my career in aviation
focused on what-went-wrong-and-why. In hind-sight,
I wish I had kept a journal on the various inquiries,
facts found and resolution of root causes. I
can state with confidence that a majority of
failure events had root cause in 'somebody
didn't read/understand some bit of history in
design or application.
A few instances, like the sticking trim relays on the
Beechjet, involved new discoveries. But most unhappy
events were founded on inattention to rudimentary
details. I've worked some exceedingly expensive
problems ($millions$) that had roots in $100
decisions . . .
Whatever you decide to do with your airplane,
it NEVER hurts to take some pictures, post to
the List and ask questions. The most elegant
solutions are invariably a team effort by
competent observers. You'll have a hard time
finding a more capable group than right here . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Garmon <michaelagarmon(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor location on a Long-EZ |
Bob,
There is an account of the incident on Brian Deford=99s website locate
d at http://deford.com/cozy/fire.html.
I am also considering installing the starter solenoid on the inside (cabin s
ide) of the firewall. I also plan on protecting alternator B leads with fusi
ble links sized to protect the wire ( larger than the alternator capacity). I
n this way, any wire crossing the firewall will be protected.
Michael Garmon
Cozy Mk IV
Houston, TX
Sent from my iPad
> On Jan 26, 2018, at 6:56 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroele
ctric.com> wrote:
>
> At 05:08 PM 1/26/2018, you wrote:
>>
>> Bob,
>>
>> Roger... I'll go back and take a deeper look at all this.
>
> Is there a published failure analysis of
> what transpired in the unhappy event?
>
> A significant proportion of my career in aviation
> focused on what-went-wrong-and-why. In hind-sight,
> I wish I had kept a journal on the various inquiries,
> facts found and resolution of root causes. I
> can state with confidence that a majority of
> failure events had root cause in 'somebody
> didn't read/understand some bit of history in
> design or application.
>
> A few instances, like the sticking trim relays on the
> Beechjet, involved new discoveries. But most unhappy
> events were founded on inattention to rudimentary
> details. I've worked some exceedingly expensive
> problems ($millions$) that had roots in $100
> decisions . . .
>
> Whatever you decide to do with your airplane,
> it NEVER hurts to take some pictures, post to
> the List and ask questions. The most elegant
> solutions are invariably a team effort by
> competent observers. You'll have a hard time
> finding a more capable group than right here . . .
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Ground protection |
After watching a friends bike go up in flames from a short I did some
thinking about the situation. I decided that I wanted some protection from
a similar fate and came up with a solution. I put a 50 amp switch in the
ground line from the battery to the frame. The logic was that with this
arrangement I could kill any short circuit by throwing a single switch
rather than having to find the offending wire. Located in a covered
location it was also cheap theft insurance. I just switched it off when I
parked. In 20 years I had one switch failure, most likely a victim of the
"Vibraglide's" rigid engine mounting setting the whole bike into spasms. On
the road it was a momentary annoyance to remove the seat, take the switch
out of the line and motor on to the auto parts store. Airborne it probably
wouldn't be as easy.
It seems to have been a valid solution for the Harley but is it good
practice otherwise?
Rick Girard
--
=9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D
Groucho Marx
<http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&ut
m_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
Virus-free.
www.avg.com
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m_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor location on a Long-EZ |
| From: | "Airdog77" <Airdog77(at)gmail.com> |
Bob,
I have to admit I'm puzzled on what appears to be sticking to the standard convention
of mounting the starter contactor/solenoid on the firewall of a pusher
aircraft when the A-to-Z of the power distribution configuration is different
than a traditional tractor airplane.
If we look at the different configurations, which I spelled out in asking advice
on this from some canard builder/fliers, it looks like this:
1. Tractor: FIREWALL >> Battery >> Battery Contactor >> shorter big wire >> Starter
Contactor >> Starter
2. "Standard" Pusher: Battery >> Battery Contactor >> longer big wire >> FIREWALL
>> Starter Contactor >> Starter
3. "New" Cozy style: Battery >> Battery Contactor >> longer big wire >> Starter
Contactor >> FIREWALL >> Starter
Not to be critical of Brian in any way, and in the discussion I discovered in support
of placing the starter solenoid on the cold side of the firewall, was a
point made that he "didn't turn off the master" which controls the power flow
through the big power cable, as is a prominent feature of #2 above. I understand
doing analysis on past events, and looking at standard practices in an attempt
to mitigate potential issues (which is exactly what I'm attempting here),
but Brian's scenario isn't the only reported instance of smoking wires in a
pusher, it's simply the most tragic (that I know of).
The second point in this discussion is that if control of the electron flow through
the big cable ends at the cold side of the firewall (as is proposed), and
the only (initial) action that results in electrons flowing across the firewall
boundary is when the starter button is depressed... then very most likely only
one action is required if there is any malcontent going on "back there" and
that is simply to STOP pressing the starter button. Then Step 2: TURN OFF THE
MASTER is moved from the critical column to the probably a good idea column.
Moreover, the ancillary logistical benefits of moving the starter contactor to
the cold/forward side of the firewall in routing wires is quite significant.
It simply makes for running less wires through the firewall, wire runs to the
Hall Effect sensor for both the primary and SD-8 backup alternators are optimized,
and it places more items in the rather empty Hell Hole area and gets them
off a very crowded firewall. In short, it just really appears on the face of
it to make for an easier install and a safer operational setup.
And again, going back to my original statement, I'm not really sure why the starter
contactor/solenoid should be on the hot side of the firewall in a pusher
airplane. Moreover, in looking at the pros/cons for moving the starter solenoid
to the cold side, the pros vastly outweigh any cons that I could find. Not
that I am in any way the most knowledgeable on this stuff, but from what I know,
have researched and discussed it appears to be the best option thus far.
Regards,
Wade
--------
Airdog
Wade Parton
Building Long-EZ N916WP
www.longezpush.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477632#477632
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor location on a Long-EZ |
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> |
On 1/27/2018 10:57 AM, Airdog77 wrote:
> 2. "Standard" Pusher: Battery >> Battery Contactor >> longer big wire >> FIREWALL
>> Starter Contactor >> Starter
>
> 3. "New" Cozy style: Battery >> Battery Contactor >> longer big wire >> Starter
Contactor >> FIREWALL >> Starter
Hi Wade,
FWIW, with my battery in the tail, the system in my tractor config
Glastar is the same as #2.
I don't see any immediate reason why #3 should not work.
In either case, the protections of the big wire going through the
firewall should be the same.
I also agree with the other folks that if the installation is done
properly, #2 should also be fine. My Glastar has been flying with this
configuration for 18 years, and other aircraft far longer. From an
electrical perspective, I do not see any differences between a pusher
versus a tractor.
It is your airplane, and you need to do what will make you feel
comfortable, IMHO.
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV - EAA Chapter 87
Currently Flying: Glastar
Previously: Cessna 150 - Glasair 1 FT - Grumman AA1B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | don van santen <donvansanten(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor location on a Long-EZ |
Wade, are you forgetting the two alternator "b" leads? In the contactor on
the cold side they both have to pass through the firewall. In the std setup
they connect to the hot side of the starter contactor.
Don
On Saturday, January 27, 2018, Airdog77 wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> I have to admit I'm puzzled on what appears to be sticking to the
standard convention of mounting the starter contactor/solenoid on the
firewall of a pusher aircraft when the A-to-Z of the power distribution
configuration is different than a traditional tractor airplane.
>
> If we look at the different configurations, which I spelled out in asking
advice on this from some canard builder/fliers, it looks like this:
>
> 1. Tractor: FIREWALL >> Battery >> Battery Contactor >> shorter big
wire >> Starter Contactor >> Starter
>
> 2. "Standard" Pusher: Battery >> Battery Contactor >> longer big wire
>> FIREWALL >> Starter Contactor >> Starter
>
> 3. "New" Cozy style: Battery >> Battery Contactor >> longer big wire >>
Starter Contactor >> FIREWALL >> Starter
>
> Not to be critical of Brian in any way, and in the discussion I
discovered in support of placing the starter solenoid on the cold side of
the firewall, was a point made that he "didn't turn off the master" which
controls the power flow through the big power cable, as is a prominent
feature of #2 above. I understand doing analysis on past events, and
looking at standard practices in an attempt to mitigate potential issues
(which is exactly what I'm attempting here), but Brian's scenario isn't the
only reported instance of smoking wires in a pusher, it's simply the most
tragic (that I know of).
>
> The second point in this discussion is that if control of the electron
flow through the big cable ends at the cold side of the firewall (as is
proposed), and the only (initial) action that results in electrons flowing
across the firewall boundary is when the starter button is depressed...
then very most likely only one action is required if there is any
malcontent going on "back there" and that is simply to STOP pressing the
starter button. Then Step 2: TURN OFF THE MASTER is moved from the
critical column to the probably a good idea column.
>
> Moreover, the ancillary logistical benefits of moving the starter
contactor to the cold/forward side of the firewall in routing wires is
quite significant. It simply makes for running less wires through the
firewall, wire runs to the Hall Effect sensor for both the primary and SD-8
backup alternators are optimized, and it places more items in the rather
empty Hell Hole area and gets them off a very crowded firewall. In short,
it just really appears on the face of it to make for an easier install and
a safer operational setup.
>
> And again, going back to my original statement, I'm not really sure why
the starter contactor/solenoid should be on the hot side of the firewall in
a pusher airplane. Moreover, in looking at the pros/cons for moving the
starter solenoid to the cold side, the pros vastly outweigh any cons that I
could find. Not that I am in any way the most knowledgeable on this stuff,
but from what I know, have researched and discussed it appears to be the
best option thus far.
>
> Regards,
> Wade
>
> --------
> Airdog
> Wade Parton
> Building Long-EZ N916WP
> www.longezpush.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477632#477632
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor location on a Long-EZ |
| From: | "Airdog77" <Airdog77(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Don,
As for big wires coming off the Starter Contactor I have an 8 AWG B lead from the
alternator that connects to the same lug on the hot side of the starter contactor.
On the other side of the starter contactor I have a 6 AWG lead going
to the starter.
Yes, I do have an 18 AWG F-lead that also comes off the alternator that transitions
through the firewall back to the Voltage Regulator, but I was looking primarily
at the heavy gauge wires through the firewall. I understand the 8 AWG
wire traversing the firewall is still on the hot side of the contactor, connected
to the same post as my mega cable coming from the nose, but it is a lot more
manageable.
Thanks,
Wade
--------
Airdog
Wade Parton
Building Long-EZ N916WP
www.longezpush.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477636#477636
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor location on a Long-EZ |
At 05:43 AM 1/27/2018, you wrote:
>Bob,
>There is an account of the incident on Brian
>Deford=99s website located at
><http://deford.com/cozy/fire.html>http://deford.com/cozy/fire.html.
>
>I am also considering installing the starter
>solenoid on the inside (cabin side) of the
>firewall. I also plan on protecting alternator B
>leads with fusible links sized to protect the
>wire ( larger than the alternator capacity). In
>this way, any wire crossing the firewall will be protected.
"The close ups of the engine/firewall show where
the fire originated, but have not yielded any
clues to me on the exact component that failed.
I'm more convinced as time has gone on and I've
had a chance to think about the failure modes
that a failure of one of the contactors,
particularly the starter contactor, is the most
likely cause of the electrical fire and not a
short circuit of the cable to the firewall.
However, it can likely never be proved."
It's unfortunate that the remains around the fire's origin
were not examined more closely. I cannot imagine how a contactor
would fail and release energy to ignite adjacent flammables.
Correct me if in error. It seems that airplanes of these
materials have a structurally composite firewall with a
thin, steel sheet on the engine side. If point of origin
was the fat-wire's firewall penetration, arc damage to the
wire's stranding at the edge of the firewall sheet would be
a tell.
He said the initial smoke was light colored which does
suggest burning insulation . . . but changed to black
no doubt when structural plastics began to burn. It
is VERY difficult to burn the insulation on a fat wire,
that's why light aircraft generally do not 'protect'
fat wires . . . they don't develop the kind of hard
fault necessary conduct current that would heat the
wire to levels that damage the insulation.
Fat wires that rub grounded airframe are 'soft' faults
that arc away and generally erodes the airframe with
only localized heating. In this case, the localized
heating may have been sandwiched tightly with the
composite structure of the firewall which became
initiation-fuel for what followed.
Beech failure analysis files include an incident in
New Mexico on a King Air that experienced sudden
disconnect of elevator cables while on final. The
pilot did a go around and managed to fly the airplane
using only pitch trim and accomplished a safe landing.
Inspection revealed that a windshield de-ice inverter's
6AWG DC power wires were misplaced during a maintenance
event and had been rubbing on the elevator cable. Motion
of the cable eventually wore through the insulation and
intermittent arcing ensued. I forget how many flight
hours between the service and the incident . . . but it
was a lot! It took a long time to eat through the strands
of the control cable . . . but the copper wire was hardly
damaged, nor was there a lot of damage to the wire's
insulation. No smoke was detected by crew.
This but one example of a 'soft' fault that did not
open the breaker protecting the wire but ultimately
parted the elevator control cable.
I'm unable to hypothesize a chain of events that
migrated from a stable condition at the time of battery
removal and a high-energy release of battery energy
within minutes of battery replacement. If the point
of origin was at the edge of the firewall sheet, this
may well have been another example of soft-fault that
had been going on for some time but, like those elevator
cables, too small to be noticed.
Brian's story is certainly sad and distressing to contemplate.
But I don't think there is enough data to suggest that
any re-arrangement of hardware will make this already rare
event even less probable. No process provides more confidence
in a design than on-the-fly-failure-mode- effects-analysis
. . . as every part is installed, be constantly aware of
ways that part can be compromised with unhappy if not dangerous
consequences.
Proximity of combustibles (firewall honeycomb?) with
potential arc generators (firewall steel sheet) are
combinations worthy of extra attention.
Being a low risk pilot calls for situational awareness
and staying ahead of the airplane. Low risk fabrication
is no different.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor location on a Long-EZ |
>
>Not to be critical of Brian in any way, and in the discussion I
>discovered in support of placing the starter solenoid on the cold
>side of the firewall, was a point made that he "didn't turn off the
>master" which controls the power flow through the big power cable,
>as is a prominent feature of #2 above. I understand doing analysis
>on past events, and looking at standard practices in an attempt to
>mitigate potential issues (which is exactly what I'm attempting
>here), but Brian's scenario isn't the only reported instance of
>smoking wires in a pusher, it's simply the most tragic (that I know of).
But has there been any forensic analysis of
cause/effect in any of these incidents?
If wires 'smoked', were they small wires
improperly protected or fat wires improperly
installed? Did quantitative analysis
show that the 'incidents' were more prevalent
in pushers as opposed to tractor airframes?
I think the problem is being over-worried . . .
concerns which are certainly understandable
but for reasons based more on lack of information
than from rational actions to reduce risk.
To be sure, fire wall penetrations of all stripe
have figured in failures. I recall one incident
on a tractor airplane where a bulkhead fitting
on a fuel line did not receive the benefit of
safety-wired flare-nuts. The line leaked and
an in-flight, fuel-fed fire ensued.
I can recall dozens of articles in the aviation
mags and publications by Tony B et. als. where
reliable fire wall penetration is discuesed
in detail. The air framers I've worked for had
books of process and practice specifications
for such things . . . books that have seen
only minor revision over decades . . .
As a class of incident, these are way
down the charts in frequency of occurrence.
Virtually all such events have root cause in
failure to observe legacy design rules that
have served well on hundreds of millions of vehicles
of all kind for over a century . . . not the
least of which are airplanes.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fund Raiser Behind By 31% - Please Contribute |
Today!
At 09:12 AM 11/27/2017, you wrote:
>
>Dear Listers,
>
>The percentage of members making a Contribution to support the Lists
>this year is currently behind last year by at this time by roughly
>31%. Please take this opportunity to show your support for the
>Matronics Lists and Forums!
Some of my favorite sources on the 'net have
been offering 'add-free-passes' that allow you
to access their content offerings without having
to hat-dance through the weeds . . . I'm really
enjoying it and the cost is trivial.
Let's not abuse time time, talent and resources
Matt has dedicated to this endeavor for all these
years. Come on folks! There ain't no such thing
as a free lunch . . . you can't eat ice cream every
day if you don't feed the cow . . . somebody pays
for it some where along the line.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re:RCA video camera feed splitter (CORRECTION) |
At 06:00 PM 12/4/2017, you wrote:
>
>
>nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> > A D-sub housing I've found quite useful is the 956 series devices
> from NorComp. They have an inside height of 0.570 and will allow
> you to socket a chip on the far end . . . the board deflects off
> centerline by about 0.050.
>
>Bob, your timing is impeccable. I turned on the computer to order
>some parts and saw your post. I'll get the 956-series backshell. I
>was looking at NorComp's 983-series, but yours looks nearly
>identical for interior volume and is 1/4 the cost.
>
>Once I have the parts I'll do a quick cardboard template of the PCB
>before I order those, to be sure they'll fit.
the optimum board size is 1.175 x 0.830 for the 15-pin
shells. Let me know what you find for 25-pin . . . if you
need to go that big.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor location on a Long-EZ |
Hi Wade,
I've got O235 Longeze N45FC. It's coming up on 1400 hrs or so but only 400
hrs of that is after I purchased it and completely rewired it (along with
quite a bit of other work).
I thought long and hard about the battery, alternator, starter and
associated contactors issue before I made my decisions. This included
reviewing the Bob N. wiring architecture diagrams, searching forum archives
and posting my own questions.
>From this work I concluded that Bob's preference (IIRC) was to run a fat
wire from master contactor (up front) to starter contactor (in back) and
then have the alternator B+ "piggy back" on the same wire (i.e. it goes
from alternator to starter contactor). This eliminates the weight of one
wire of sufficient gauge for the alternator current (in my case #8 for a
40A alternator) but, in trade, you have a fat wire that is hot whenever the
master contactor is enabled running the full length of the fuselage. Bob
provided referenced as to why this was considered acceptable.
My own cost/benefit analysis led me to buck the aeroelectric conventional
wisdom and do it different.
In my bird the B+ gets its own #8 wire from the alternator in back to a 40A
ANL in front and from there to the master contactor. I've reserved room
for a starter contactor up front, next to the master contactor for the
starter contactors. I will pull a new + fat wire for the starter should I
reinstall it (I took it out when I overhauled everything and haven't seen
it worth reinstalling). I will also have to replace my existing #8 ground
wire from the front to the back with a fat wire should I want the starter.
(Truth be told, I will also have to install a new flywheel as I removed the
ring gear and supporting metal to reduce weight).
In my mind, the advantage of eliminating a single #8 wire in trade for a
hot-whenever-the-master-is-on and otherwise totally unprotected fat wire
running the full length of my aircraft just wasn't worth it.
It was well after that conclusion that I also concluded that the
convenience of a starter wasn't worth the weight and additional failure
modes. If I was running a high-compression O320 or O360, I might have come
to a different conclusion on this point, but not the previous one.
I encourage you to gather all the input you can and consider all your own
tradeoffs, which it appears is exactly what you are doing.
Best of luck! And I look forward to meeting you at a canard fly-in one of
these days!
Steve Stearns
O235 Longeze N45FC
Boulder/Longmont CO
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: Fund Raiser Behind By 31% - Please Contribute Today! |
I wrote to Matt but never got a reply. I suggested switched to Google
Groups, which are 100% free. Not even ads. Do you know if he received my
note?
-- Art Z.
On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 09:12 AM 11/27/2017, you wrote:
>
> >
>
> Dear Listers,
>
> The percentage of members making a Contribution to support the Lists this
> year is currently behind last year by at this time by roughly 31%. Please
> take this opportunity to show your support for the Matronics Lists and
> Forums!
>
>
> Some of my favorite sources on the 'net have
> been offering 'add-free-passes' that allow you
> to access their content offerings without having
> to hat-dance through the weeds . . . I'm really
> enjoying it and the cost is trivial.
>
> Let's not abuse time time, talent and resources
> Matt has dedicated to this endeavor for all these
> years. Come on folks! There ain't no such thing
> as a free lunch . . . you can't eat ice cream every
> day if you don't feed the cow . . . somebody pays
> for it some where along the line.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what
am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fund Raiser Behind By 31% - Please Contribute Today! |
You don=99t pay money for it, but you do have to give G**gle your soul
. So it=99s not free....
On Jan 28, 2018, at 17:04, Art Zemon wrote:
I wrote to Matt but never got a reply. I suggested switched to Google Groups
, which are 100% free. Not even ads. Do you know if he received my note?
-- Art Z.
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@ae
roelectric.com> wrote:
> At 09:12 AM 11/27/2017, you wrote:
m>
>>
>> Dear Listers,
>>
>> The percentage of members making a Contribution to support the Lists this
year is currently behind last year by at this time by roughly 31%. Please t
ake this opportunity to show your support for the Matronics Lists and Forums
!
>
> Some of my favorite sources on the 'net have
> been offering 'add-free-passes' that allow you
> to access their content offerings without having
> to hat-dance through the weeds . . . I'm really
> enjoying it and the cost is trivial.
>
> Let's not abuse time time, talent and resources
> Matt has dedicated to this endeavor for all these
> years. Come on folks! There ain't no such thing
> as a free lunch . . . you can't eat ice cream every
> day if you don't feed the cow . . . somebody pays
> for it some where along the line.
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am
I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: Fund Raiser Behind By 31% - Please Contribute Today! |
Well, if you don't want to be the product then you can be a paying
customer. Cost is a measly $50 per year for a paid G Suite account and it
includes an unlimited number of Google Groups. That's darned close to free
and a helluva lot less than the cost of running a server and possibly
paying for bandwidth. Beats begging for dollars.
-- Art Z.
On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 4:13 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
> You don=99t pay money for it, but you do have to give G**gle your s
oul. So
> it=99s not free....
>
> On Jan 28, 2018, at 17:04, Art Zemon wrote:
>
> I wrote to Matt but never got a reply. I suggested switched to Google
> Groups, which are 100% free. Not even ads. Do you know if he received my
> note?
>
> -- Art Z.
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 09:12 AM 11/27/2017, you wrote:
>>
>> dralle(at)matronics.com>
>>
>> Dear Listers,
>>
>> The percentage of members making a Contribution to support the Lists thi
s
>> year is currently behind last year by at this time by roughly 31%. Plea
se
>> take this opportunity to show your support for the Matronics Lists and
>> Forums!
>>
>>
>> Some of my favorite sources on the 'net have
>> been offering 'add-free-passes' that allow you
>> to access their content offerings without having
>> to hat-dance through the weeds . . . I'm really
>> enjoying it and the cost is trivial.
>>
>> Let's not abuse time time, talent and resources
>> Matt has dedicated to this endeavor for all these
>> years. Come on folks! There ain't no such thing
>> as a free lunch . . . you can't eat ice cream every
>> day if you don't feed the cow . . . somebody pays
>> for it some where along the line.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, wha
t
> am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
>
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what
am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fund Raiser Behind By 31% - Please Contribute Today! |
I take it you could only join this Google Group if you already have a
google social media account?
On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 2:35 PM, Art Zemon wrote:
> Well, if you don't want to be the product then you can be a paying
> customer. Cost is a measly $50 per year for a paid G Suite account and it
> includes an unlimited number of Google Groups. That's darned close to fre
e
> and a helluva lot less than the cost of running a server and possibly
> paying for bandwidth. Beats begging for dollars.
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 4:13 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
>
>> You don=99t pay money for it, but you do have to give G**gle your
soul. So
>> it=99s not free....
>>
>> On Jan 28, 2018, at 17:04, Art Zemon wrote:
>>
>> I wrote to Matt but never got a reply. I suggested switched to Google
>> Groups, which are 100% free. Not even ads. Do you know if he received my
>> note?
>>
>> -- Art Z.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
>> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>>
>>> At 09:12 AM 11/27/2017, you wrote:
>>>
>>> dralle(at)matronics.com>
>>>
>>> Dear Listers,
>>>
>>> The percentage of members making a Contribution to support the Lists
>>> this year is currently behind last year by at this time by roughly 31%.
>>> Please take this opportunity to show your support for the Matronics Lis
ts
>>> and Forums!
>>>
>>>
>>> Some of my favorite sources on the 'net have
>>> been offering 'add-free-passes' that allow you
>>> to access their content offerings without having
>>> to hat-dance through the weeds . . . I'm really
>>> enjoying it and the cost is trivial.
>>>
>>> Let's not abuse time time, talent and resources
>>> Matt has dedicated to this endeavor for all these
>>> years. Come on folks! There ain't no such thing
>>> as a free lunch . . . you can't eat ice cream every
>>> day if you don't feed the cow . . . somebody pays
>>> for it some where along the line.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob . . .
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>>
>> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself,
>> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
>>
>
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, wha
t
> am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: Fund Raiser Behind By 31% - Please Contribute Today! |
No. Any email works
-- Art Z.
Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
On Jan 28, 2018 5:33 PM, "Sebastien" wrote:
> I take it you could only join this Google Group if you already have a
> google social media account?
>
> On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 2:35 PM, Art Zemon wrote:
>
>> Well, if you don't want to be the product then you can be a paying
>> customer. Cost is a measly $50 per year for a paid G Suite account and i
t
>> includes an unlimited number of Google Groups. That's darned close to fr
ee
>> and a helluva lot less than the cost of running a server and possibly
>> paying for bandwidth. Beats begging for dollars.
>>
>> -- Art Z.
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 4:13 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
>>
>>> You don=99t pay money for it, but you do have to give G**gle your
soul. So
>>> it=99s not free....
>>>
>>> On Jan 28, 2018, at 17:04, Art Zemon wrote:
>>>
>>> I wrote to Matt but never got a reply. I suggested switched to Google
>>> Groups, which are 100% free. Not even ads. Do you know if he received m
y
>>> note?
>>>
>>> -- Art Z.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
>>> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> At 09:12 AM 11/27/2017, you wrote:
>>>>
>>>> dralle(at)matronics.com>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Listers,
>>>>
>>>> The percentage of members making a Contribution to support the Lists
>>>> this year is currently behind last year by at this time by roughly 31%
.
>>>> Please take this opportunity to show your support for the Matronics Li
sts
>>>> and Forums!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some of my favorite sources on the 'net have
>>>> been offering 'add-free-passes' that allow you
>>>> to access their content offerings without having
>>>> to hat-dance through the weeds . . . I'm really
>>>> enjoying it and the cost is trivial.
>>>>
>>>> Let's not abuse time time, talent and resources
>>>> Matt has dedicated to this endeavor for all these
>>>> years. Come on folks! There ain't no such thing
>>>> as a free lunch . . . you can't eat ice cream every
>>>> day if you don't feed the cow . . . somebody pays
>>>> for it some where along the line.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bob . . .
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>>>
>>> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself,
>>> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>>
>> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself,
>> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor location on a Long-EZ |
At 03:26 PM 1/28/2018, you wrote:
>My own cost/benefit analysis led me to buck the aeroelectric
>conventional wisdom and do it different.
Keep in mind that we're talking several issues
only slightly intertwined . . .
One is selection of parts and ARCHITECTURE.
I'd be surprised if more than a couple percent
of OBAM aircraft flying were heavily influenced
by the AeroElectric Connection. Yet, they are
all flying and perform to builder's expectations
else they would get FIXED. That's one of the big
reasons for going the OBAM aviation route . . . if
you don't like it, fix it.
The second issue is failure mode effects . . .
irrespective of the architecture floats your boat
. . . or flies your airplane . . . the project
benefits greatly from FAILURE TOLERANT design.
I.e. loss of no single PROPERLY INSTALLED COMPONENT
should put the outcome of the flight at risk.
The last, and perhaps the most important focuses on
that word "PROPERLY" . . . we've read waaayyy too many
stories about bad days in the cockpit wherein the
installation and sometimes the selection of components
fabricated an ACCIDENT WAITING TO HAPPEN.
All the worrying in the world about architecture
and even parts selection produces no benefit unless
the two most important of those issues are skillfully
resolved. FAILURE TOLERANCE and PROPER INSTALLATION.
Some really 'nice' airplanes have gone down, some
with loss of life, for IGNORANT reasons implemented
by individuals who were not stupid . . . just inadequately
prepared to the task. Those root causes are invariably
unrelated to anything discussed outside of Chapter 17
in the 'Connection.
The place to start your educational endeavors is
in study of the history of the art. A study of
how-they-did-it in a C172 or PA28 may not be very
exciting, but there is confidence to be gained
in knowledge of successfully repeated experiments.
An advantage we have in OBAM aviation is the freedom
to explore new ideas. But the slickest new idea is
of little value if its failure modes or lack of
attention to process raises risk to unacceptable
levels.
Be wary of decisions driven by unsubstantiated
worries. We don't KNOW root cause in the
loss of Brian's airplane. If the loss personal to
Brian wasn't enough, loss to the community for not
knowing root cause was far worse. Worries that
prompt deviation from perhaps a century of successfully
repeated experiments do not add value to the
art and science of building low risk aircraft.
Further, they dilute the value of our $time$ expended
on seeking solutions for problems that can
only be imagined because we have no data.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor location on a Long-EZ |
| From: | "Airdog77" <Airdog77(at)gmail.com> |
Bob,
Thanks for your analysis of this incident. I always learn a ton through you and
others on this forum!
Just for clarification, our firewalls are 1/4" Finnish birch plywood with a ply
or two each side of fiberglass. Then the hot side gets a layer of fiberfrax covered
with a thin layer (0.016-0.025") of either stainless steel or aluminum.
As with researching any subject, there are invariably other characteristics that
appear and reveal themselves and add to the original topic being researched.
I am strongly leaning towards placing the starter contactor on the cold side
of the firewall, but not in response to Brian's incident, but more so as a matter
of logistical ease for my configuration that became clear to me the more I
researched this issue. To be certain, by doing this I'm not stating an overriding
concern for getting a high current cable through the firewall, it is again
merely one of logistics and space.
I will say --and not that this is my reasoning for a go/no-go decision-- that I've
learned over these past few days that placing the starter contactor on the
cold side of the firewall is a VERY common practice in the canard community --again,
for whatever reasons individual builders' have. Actually, surprisingly
common in fact.
Perhaps some of that has to do with the inherent design of canards, wiring and
space logistics (my overarching reason for going this route), tribal culture,
or just individual preference.
As you have alluded to many times, this flexibility is one of the outstanding characteristics
of the OBAM world... to adjust when necessary to optimize one's
build.
Regards,
Wade
--------
Airdog
Wade Parton
Building Long-EZ N916WP
www.longezpush.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477679#477679
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor location on a Long-EZ |
>
>
>I will say --and not that this is my reasoning for a go/no-go
>decision-- that I've learned over these past few days that placing
>the starter contactor on the cold side of the firewall is a VERY
>common practice in the canard community --again, for whatever
>reasons individual builders' have. Actually, surprisingly common in fact.
>
>Perhaps some of that has to do with the inherent design of canards,
>wiring and space logistics (my overarching reason for going this
>route), tribal culture, or just individual preference.
>
>As you have alluded to many times, this flexibility is one of the
>outstanding characteristics of the OBAM world... to adjust when
>necessary to optimize one's build.
. . . a well reasoned decision. My only concern about
this thread (and similar threads in the past) was
that some readers perceive value in moving their
contactor as a prophylactic against having
their airplane catch fire.
My sense is that you've got a handle on the
need/value/processes for risk management. A quality
that has very little to do with architecture.
May The Force be with you sir . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
Can anyone help:
Whats the go-to equivalent milspec number to 22759/16 for avionics hookups, except
shielded?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Shielded cable |
At 07:14 AM 2/2/2018, you wrote:
>
>Can anyone help:
>
>What=99s the go-to equivalent milspec number to
>22759/16 for avionics hookups, except shielded?
'commercial' equivalents are going to be hard to
find. if anyone goes to the effort to tool up
for ETFE insulation, there's little value to
be had for offering a less-than-military grade.
Another procurement problem is price breaks for
quantity. It doesn't take much total wire to
wire up your airplane . . . perhaps a few hundred
feet. But if you need multiple gages and perhaps
find value in color coded wires, then you find
yourself looking to procure lots of short lengths
of multiple sizes and colors.
From a sellers standpoint, it takes more
labor to pick, pack, ship and sell a 10 foot
chunk of 6AWG wire than it does for a 500' foot
spool. The 500' spool is shipment ready . . .
the short chunk has to be spooled of, measured,
cut, packaged and perhaps marked . . . then the
seller is 'stuck' with a 490' spool of wire that
can no longer be sold as it's original, bulk
price offering.
Been there, done that, still have spools of wire
on the shelf that I'm going to have to pass off
to someone who wants to be in the short-chunks
business.
Our legacy short-chunks guys are B&C and SteinAir.
There are offerings on eBay like this
https://goo.gl/AmmFsV
CAUTION: 22759 INCLUDES slash numbers that
call out PTFE (Teflon) as opposed to ETFE
(Tefzel). Make sure your eBay seller knows
which insulation is on hand so you can get
the right one.
Finally, a google search on 22759 is going
to yield you a million+ hits . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Shielded cable |
Bob
I want the military grade. My supplier of choice is Allied Wire and Cable - but
I dont know which of their offerings to look at. When I want unshielded I go
for 22759/16 but I dont know what the shielded equivalent is.
Aircraft spruce sells M27500, but AWC lists several different kinds with different
insulations, PTFE, FEP, ETFE:
http://www.awcwire.com/producttoc.aspx?id=m27500-cables
I think the choice is between RC-09 (FEP) and RC-06 (PTFE). Does it make any difference?
Or should I use something else?
I just dont want raised eyebrows and a sucking-in of breath over beer at the aircraft
wiring club bar if I say what I used.
On Feb 2, 2018, at 9:33 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
At 07:14 AM 2/2/2018, you wrote:
>
> Can anyone help:
>
> Whats the go-to equivalent milspec number to 22759/16 for avionics hookups, except
shielded?
'commercial' equivalents are going to be hard to
find. if anyone goes to the effort to tool up
for ETFE insulation, there's little value to
be had for offering a less-than-military grade.
Another procurement problem is price breaks for
quantity. It doesn't take much total wire to
wire up your airplane . . . perhaps a few hundred
feet. But if you need multiple gages and perhaps
find value in color coded wires, then you find
yourself looking to procure lots of short lengths
of multiple sizes and colors.
From a sellers standpoint, it takes more
labor to pick, pack, ship and sell a 10 foot
chunk of 6AWG wire than it does for a 500' foot
spool. The 500' spool is shipment ready . . .
the short chunk has to be spooled of, measured,
cut, packaged and perhaps marked . . . then the
seller is 'stuck' with a 490' spool of wire that
can no longer be sold as it's original, bulk
price offering.
Been there, done that, still have spools of wire
on the shelf that I'm going to have to pass off
to someone who wants to be in the short-chunks
business.
Our legacy short-chunks guys are B&C and SteinAir.
There are offerings on eBay like this
https://goo.gl/AmmFsV
CAUTION: 22759 INCLUDES slash numbers that
call out PTFE (Teflon) as opposed to ETFE
(Tefzel). Make sure your eBay seller knows
which insulation is on hand so you can get
the right one.
Finally, a google search on 22759 is going
to yield you a million+ hits . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Shielded cable |
Here you go:
https://www.google.com/search?ei=VH50Ws_PO4z2swWIp4aoCA&q=fep+vs+etfe&o
q=FEP+vs+ETFE+&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i22i30k1.837.6597.0.14111.6.6.0.0.0.0.2
61.925.0j5j1.6.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.6.924...0j0i7i30k1j0i7i10i30k1j0i
7i5i30k1j0i5i30k1j0i8i30k1j0i30k1j35i39k1.0.lgKh6xCpZSk
On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 8:42 AM, Alec Myers wrote:
>
> Bob
>
> I want the military grade. My supplier of choice is Allied Wire and Cable
> - but I don=99t know which of their offerings to look at. When I wa
nt
> unshielded I go for 22759/16 but I don=99t know what the shielded e
quivalent
> is.
>
> Aircraft spruce sells M27500, but AWC lists several different kinds with
> different insulations, PTFE, FEP, ETFE:
> http://www.awcwire.com/producttoc.aspx?id=m27500-cables
>
> I think the choice is between RC-09 (FEP) and RC-06 (PTFE). Does it make
> any difference? Or should I use something else?
>
> I just don=99t want raised eyebrows and a sucking-in of breath over
beer at
> the aircraft wiring club bar if I say what I used.
>
>
> On Feb 2, 2018, at 9:33 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
> At 07:14 AM 2/2/2018, you wrote:
>
> >
> > Can anyone help:
> >
> > What=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s the go-to equivalent milspec number to 22
759/16 for avionics
> hookups, except shielded?
>
> 'commercial' equivalents are going to be hard to
> find. if anyone goes to the effort to tool up
> for ETFE insulation, there's little value to
> be had for offering a less-than-military grade.
>
> Another procurement problem is price breaks for
> quantity. It doesn't take much total wire to
> wire up your airplane . . . perhaps a few hundred
> feet. But if you need multiple gages and perhaps
> find value in color coded wires, then you find
> yourself looking to procure lots of short lengths
> of multiple sizes and colors.
>
> From a sellers standpoint, it takes more
> labor to pick, pack, ship and sell a 10 foot
> chunk of 6AWG wire than it does for a 500' foot
> spool. The 500' spool is shipment ready . . .
> the short chunk has to be spooled of, measured,
> cut, packaged and perhaps marked . . . then the
> seller is 'stuck' with a 490' spool of wire that
> can no longer be sold as it's original, bulk
> price offering.
>
> Been there, done that, still have spools of wire
> on the shelf that I'm going to have to pass off
> to someone who wants to be in the short-chunks
> business.
>
> Our legacy short-chunks guys are B&C and SteinAir.
> There are offerings on eBay like this
>
> https://goo.gl/AmmFsV
>
>
> CAUTION: 22759 INCLUDES slash numbers that
> call out PTFE (Teflon) as opposed to ETFE
> (Tefzel). Make sure your eBay seller knows
> which insulation is on hand so you can get
> the right one.
>
> Finally, a google search on 22759 is going
> to yield you a million+ hits . . .
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Shielded cable |
I read the descriptions. I just want to know what everyone else uses :-)
On Feb 2, 2018, at 10:06 AM, Charlie England wrote:
Here you go:
https://www.google.com/search?ei=VH50Ws_PO4z2swWIp4aoCA&q=fep+vs+etfe&oq=FEP+vs+ETFE+&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i22i30k1.837.6597.0.14111.6.6.0.0.0.0.261.925.0j5j1.6.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.6.924...0j0i7i30k1j0i7i10i30k1j0i7i5i30k1j0i5i30k1j0i8i30k1j0i30k1j35i39k1.0.lgKh6xCpZSk
On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 8:42 AM, Alec Myers wrote:
Bob
I want the military grade. My supplier of choice is Allied Wire and Cable - but
I dont know which of their offerings to look at. When I want unshielded I go
for 22759/16 but I dont know what the shielded equivalent is.
Aircraft spruce sells M27500, but AWC lists several different kinds with different
insulations, PTFE, FEP, ETFE:
http://www.awcwire.com/producttoc.aspx?id=m27500-cables
I think the choice is between RC-09 (FEP) and RC-06 (PTFE). Does it make any difference?
Or should I use something else?
I just dont want raised eyebrows and a sucking-in of breath over beer at the aircraft
wiring club bar if I say what I used.
On Feb 2, 2018, at 9:33 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
At 07:14 AM 2/2/2018, you wrote:
>
> Can anyone help:
>
> Whats the go-to equivalent milspec number to 22759/16 for avionics hookups, except
shielded?
'commercial' equivalents are going to be hard to
find. if anyone goes to the effort to tool up
for ETFE insulation, there's little value to
be had for offering a less-than-military grade.
Another procurement problem is price breaks for
quantity. It doesn't take much total wire to
wire up your airplane . . . perhaps a few hundred
feet. But if you need multiple gages and perhaps
find value in color coded wires, then you find
yourself looking to procure lots of short lengths
of multiple sizes and colors.
From a sellers standpoint, it takes more
labor to pick, pack, ship and sell a 10 foot
chunk of 6AWG wire than it does for a 500' foot
spool. The 500' spool is shipment ready . . .
the short chunk has to be spooled of, measured,
cut, packaged and perhaps marked . . . then the
seller is 'stuck' with a 490' spool of wire that
can no longer be sold as it's original, bulk
price offering.
Been there, done that, still have spools of wire
on the shelf that I'm going to have to pass off
to someone who wants to be in the short-chunks
business.
Our legacy short-chunks guys are B&C and SteinAir.
There are offerings on eBay like this
https://goo.gl/AmmFsV
CAUTION: 22759 INCLUDES slash numbers that
call out PTFE (Teflon) as opposed to ETFE
(Tefzel). Make sure your eBay seller knows
which insulation is on hand so you can get
the right one.
Finally, a google search on 22759 is going
to yield you a million+ hits . . .
Bob . . .
===================================
-
Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
===================================
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===================================
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===================================
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com> |
That IS the preferred wire for avionics hookups (single wires).....and the Shielded
is 27500 TG or TE (difference being the thickness of the insulation on the
inner conductors). "RC" wires are a not a recommended solution for a number
of reasons....
Stick with what everyone uses and what the manufacturers recommend, don't try to
re-invent the wheel here, you'll spend more time researching than it's worth
for the hundreds of dollars you'll spend to wire up the entire plane. We go
through millions of feet of this stuff per year, and there's a reason we stock
what we do. Gimme a shout and we'll be happy to help you out.
Cheers,
Stein
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alec Myers
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 7:15 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Shielded cable
Can anyone help:
Whats the go-to equivalent milspec number to 22759/16 for avionics hookups, except
shielded?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Earl Schroeder <n233ee(at)gmail.com> |
The recent discussions about shielded cable brought to mind a question.
I am in the process of installing a Garmin GDL-82 in an experimental aircraft.
The GDL-82 was purchased from Pacific coast aviation and arrived without any
antenna cable since the installed length was unknown.
The online instructions warned of a possible signal loss if standard RG 58 coax
was retained from the transponder output to the antenna suggesting changing to
RG 400 or equivalent. I am under the gun to get the installation completed
so a trip to the local Hutch & Son was an attempt to eliminate the shipping wait
but they did not stock any 400 and did not have an equivalent. They also thought
the 400 was an indication of the outside diameter as well as a lower signal
loss.
I have found some RG-400 cable on both eBay and Amazon but their diameters are
close to the RG 58.
Now the question is how do I determine the true RG 400 and what to use to limit
the signal loss is a cable run of six feet from the transponder to the antenna.
The GDL-82 is four feet from the transponder and two feet from the antenna.
(The GDL-82 is spliced into the transponder output cable on the way to the
antenna to pickup the code, standby, and altitude etc.)
I am inviting comments, suggestions and/or advice. Thanks, Earl
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Antenna cable? |
| From: | GTH <gilles.thesee(at)free.fr> |
Le 02/02/2018 17:42, Earl Schroeder a crit:
> a trip to the local Hutch & Son was an attempt to eliminate the shipping wait
but they did not stock any 400 and did not have an equivalent. They also thought
the 400 was an indication of the outside diameter as well as a lower signal
loss.
>
> I have found some RG-400 cable on both eBay and Amazon but their diameters are
close to the RG 58.
>
> Now the question is how do I determine the true RG 400
Hello Earl
Some info on the RG 400 coaxial
http://www.awcwire.com/productspec.aspx?id=rg400-coaxial-cable
Double braided shield, PTFE dielectric, etc.
And yes the diameter is close to that of the old RG 58.
B&C, Aircraft Spruce or any aviation supplier carry them.
FWIW,
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com> |
The 400 does not refer to the diameter (it's nearly identical to the 58)...and
beware of some of the Ebay stuff. There is much out there from recent hurricane
sales that has been under water and can be corroded. Not all of it of course,
but SOME. Anyway, to be sure if it's correct, just buy it from an aviation/avionics
shop and you'll be guaranteed it's good stuff that isn't old surplus
or something.
Now, as an aside - depending on the transponder you have (and how it's performing
before the upgrade/addition of the 82), the 58 you currently have might work
just fine, at least temporarily....
Cheers,
Stein
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Earl Schroeder
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 10:43 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Antenna cable?
-->
The recent discussions about shielded cable brought to mind a question.
I am in the process of installing a Garmin GDL-82 in an experimental aircraft.
The GDL-82 was purchased from Pacific coast aviation and arrived without any
antenna cable since the installed length was unknown.
The online instructions warned of a possible signal loss if standard RG 58 coax
was retained from the transponder output to the antenna suggesting changing to
RG 400 or equivalent. I am under the gun to get the installation completed
so a trip to the local Hutch & Son was an attempt to eliminate the shipping wait
but they did not stock any 400 and did not have an equivalent. They also thought
the 400 was an indication of the outside diameter as well as a lower signal
loss.
I have found some RG-400 cable on both eBay and Amazon but their diameters are
close to the RG 58.
Now the question is how do I determine the true RG 400 and what to use to limit
the signal loss is a cable run of six feet from the transponder to the antenna.
The GDL-82 is four feet from the transponder and two feet from the antenna.
(The GDL-82 is spliced into the transponder output cable on the way to the
antenna to pickup the code, standby, and altitude etc.)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Shielded cable |
At 08:42 AM 2/2/2018, you wrote:
>
>Bob
>
>I want the military grade. My supplier of choice
>is Allied Wire and Cable - but I don=99t know
>which of their offerings to look at. When I want
>unshielded I go for 22759/16 but I don=99t know
>what the shielded equivalent is.
>
>Aircraft spruce sells M27500, but AWC lists
>several different kinds with different insulations, PTFE, FEP, ETFE:
>http://www.awcwire.com/producttoc.aspx?id=m27500-cables
>
>I think the choice is between RC-09 (FEP) and
>RC-06 (PTFE). Does it make any difference? Or should I use something else?
>
>I just don=99t want raised eyebrows and a
>sucking-in of breath over beer at the aircraft
>wiring club bar if I say what I used.
>
It's nearly impossible to 'do it wrong' . . .
Keep in mind that over the last century of wiring
airplanes, wire insulation has evolved from cotton
covered rubber (with varnish paint) up though
nylon over PVC to finally evolve to Tefzel and
cousins. Every step-up in wire fabrication technology
has been eminently suitable for trickle-down into
older airframes . . . but there's nothing to
suggest that examples of older airframes have
become 'unsafe' due to their equally old
wiring. See https://goo.gl/iatVqJ
Use any shielded wire you can put your hands
on if it has enough strands and suitable gage.
Then I'd be pleased to buy you a beer . . .
and I promise not to blow suds all over you
when you tell me what you used.
You are 100x more likely to have a problem with
that wire due to poor installation than
choice of materials.
What kind of wire are you looking for and how
much? I think I've still got a big spool
of 3x22AWG Tefzel out in the shop. But a chunk of
Beldfoil over 3x22 PVC from your own junk box
is fine too.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Antenna cable? |
>
>I have found some RG-400 cable on both eBay and Amazon but their
>diameters are close to the RG 58.
>
>Now the question is how do I determine the true RG 400 and what to
>use to limit the signal loss is a cable run of six feet from the
>transponder to the antenna. The GDL-82 is four feet from the
>transponder and two feet from the antenna. (The GDL-82 is spliced
>into the transponder output cable on the way to the antenna to
>pickup the code, standby, and altitude etc.)
>
>I am inviting comments, suggestions and/or advice. Thanks, Earl
It's difficult to 'fake' RG-400 . . . any of
these offerings of cable and connectors will
be suited to your task.
https://goo.gl/jg2ocw
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Antenna cable? |
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
I agree with Stein....for your cable lengths, RG58 will do just fine for
the short run. Yes, the RG400 is better, especially for the long term,
but whether the difference can be detected by a ramp test set or not...I
doubt it. The RG 400 has clear insulation over bronze/gold looking
interior and generally costs $3 and up per foot.
On 2/2/2018 9:42 AM, Earl Schroeder wrote:
>
> The recent discussions about shielded cable brought to mind a question.
>
> I am in the process of installing a Garmin GDL-82 in an experimental aircraft.
The GDL-82 was purchased from Pacific coast aviation and arrived without any
antenna cable since the installed length was unknown.
>
> The online instructions warned of a possible signal loss if standard RG 58 coax
was retained from the transponder output to the antenna suggesting changing
to RG 400 or equivalent. I am under the gun to get the installation completed
so a trip to the local Hutch & Son was an attempt to eliminate the shipping
wait but they did not stock any 400 and did not have an equivalent. They also
thought the 400 was an indication of the outside diameter as well as a lower
signal loss.
>
> I have found some RG-400 cable on both eBay and Amazon but their diameters are
close to the RG 58.
>
> Now the question is how do I determine the true RG 400 and what to use to limit
the signal loss is a cable run of six feet from the transponder to the antenna.
The GDL-82 is four feet from the transponder and two feet from the antenna.
(The GDL-82 is spliced into the transponder output cable on the way to the
antenna to pickup the code, standby, and altitude etc.)
>
> I am inviting comments, suggestions and/or advice. Thanks, Earl
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Alarm chirp with power on/off |
| From: | "hmanvel" <hmanvel(at)manvel.com> |
I have been a stalker for many years and have not had a need to post a question
until now. My Rutan Defiant EAB has a simple master alarm circuit that uses
3 microswitches, throttle, canopy, and nosegear. If anything is in the wrong
position (canopy open with throttle, gear up with throttle back) an obnoxious
108 db alarm buzzes. Here's my problem; lately when I turn on the master, I hear
the alarm chirp very briefly. And again when I turn off the master. I have
checked all wiring connections, grounds etc. and cannot find anything wrong.
Any thoughts on where to look next? Could a failing microswitch somehow cause
this?
--------
Harry Manvel
Defiant N2HM
PTK / Pontiac, MI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477792#477792
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Relay Question: Adding control relay to SD-8 circuit |
| From: | "Airdog77" <Airdog77(at)gmail.com> |
Bob, et al.
Another question for the gang. I have the B&C SD-8 alternator wired into my Z-13/8
architecture pretty much how shown in the AEC diagram.
My question is regarding a control relay that I would like to add into the SD-8
circuit to essentially facilitate an "IF-THEN" statement... so that IF the AUX
ALT off/on switch for the SD-8 is flipped to "ON" THEN the coil of this added
relay is powered up and another circuit elsewhere is broken.
My thought was to simply extend the wire that would normally go to ground from
the AUX ALT off/on switch to one side of this control relay's coil, then to ground
from the other side of this control relay's coil. This circuit would be
easiest by far in my wiring scheme, but although it will work, I'm not sure if
it's the best way to do this. In essence I would have power>>relay coil>>switch>>relay
coil>>ground.
Am I violating any (more ;)) rules by doing this?
Regards,
Wade
--------
Airdog
Wade Parton
Building Long-EZ N916WP
www.longezpush.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477797#477797
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor location on a Long-EZ |
| From: | "Airdog77" <Airdog77(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks Bob!
--------
Airdog
Wade Parton
Building Long-EZ N916WP
www.longezpush.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477798#477798
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Relay Question: Adding control relay to SD-8 circuit |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
It is not clear if your plan will break a rule or not without seeing a schematic
of the circuit. There is a saying that applies. If it is not installed, it
can not fail.
There are couple of ways to break an unrelated circuit when you operate a switch.
One way is to use a DPDT switch. One half of the switch makes a circuit
and the other half of the switch breaks a different circuit. The same thing
can be accomplished using a DPDT relay to control the aux alternator and the new
intended circuit. There is no need to use two relays.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477802#477802
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Relay Question: Adding control relay to SD-8 circuit |
| From: | "Airdog77" <Airdog77(at)gmail.com> |
Joe,
Thanks for your response.
I attached a diagram of the SD-8 installed in the Z-13/8 with my proposed control
relay added.
I understand using a different switch, I strongly considered it, but in this situation
I would greatly prefer not to for a variety of reasons: I don't want to
add another wire run if I can avoid it. Moreover, I'm in a Long-EZ, which adds
a number of different challenges to this endeavor, including INCREDIBLE tight
tolerances on my panel where this switch is located. Plus, my SD-8 is in
the very back of the aircraft, my switch is on the panel, and my control relay
needs to be in the very nose of the aircraft.
This is also why I didn't simply want to bump up the current SD-8's S704-1 relay
to a DPDT relay. So I have evaluated and scrutinized this circuit and if I
can do this the way I'm presenting it, it looks to me as if this would be the
cleanest install for my current configuration. There may be an easier way, but
right now I'm looking at extending one wire, moving a ground and adding a relay
to open one circuit when the SD-8 is turned on.
Regards,
Wade
--------
Airdog
Wade Parton
Building Long-EZ N916WP
www.longezpush.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477803#477803
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/sd_8_added_control_relay_222.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Relay Question: Adding control relay to SD-8 circuit |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
A picture is worth a thousands words. Now I understand your proposed circuit.
There are two problems with it. First, the two relay coils are in series with
each other. Each relay coil will only have about 6 or 7 volts dropped across
it, not enough to reliably pull it in, if they work at all. The second problem
is that if one relay coil fails, so will the other one. It reminds me of
a string of Christmas lights, one bulb burns out and they all go out.
If there is a source of power available in the nose of the aircraft, a transistor
circuit will work by monitoring the voltage at the aux-alt circuit breaker.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477806#477806
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Relay Question: Adding control relay to SD-8 circuit |
| From: | "Airdog77" <Airdog77(at)gmail.com> |
Joe,
It actually does work on the bench, but I realized I was putting these relays in
series and it's not something I had seen as a normal practice. Even though it
worked something didn't seem right about it, thus my wanting a crosscheck. Thanks
for providing one!
I do have a battery buss at the front were I could pull power from... so if I read
your right, I'm looking at pulling power off the 2A CB to then drive a transistor
to provide me the subsequent control to open the circuit.
Regards,
Wade
--------
Airdog
Wade Parton
Building Long-EZ N916WP
www.longezpush.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477811#477811
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Relay Question: Adding control relay to SD-8 circuit |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
A MOSFET transistor can monitor input voltage without actually drawing any current.
Exactly where the transistor input is connected depends on what you want
to monitor, relay or switch. They might have different voltages depending on
coil failure or CB tripping. If you describe the intended load and under what
conditions it should be turned on or off, someone on this list can design a
transistor circuit.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477820#477820
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Relay Question: Adding control relay to SD-8 circuit |
| From: | "Airdog77" <Airdog77(at)gmail.com> |
Joe,
> If you describe the intended load and under what conditions it should be turned
on or off
It's a 2.5A charging lead for a backup battery system that I don't want to draw
off the E-Bus in a scenario where my main alternator goes down and I'm on SD-8/E-Bus
only power. The condition is simply if the SD-8 is turned on for use
as the primary alternator --again, in a scenario where the main alternator is
taken offline-- then I would like this to be an automatic ancillary function of
the SD-8 being brought online (the opposite holds true as well: SD-8 OFF, then
the charging circuit is reestablished).
In my attempt to integrate this after all the cables are run through bulkheads,
etc. my optimal access to this charging lead is in the nose, with my SD-8 in
the aft section of the aircraft (Long-EZ/pusher).
Much thanks!
Regards,
Wade
--------
Airdog
Wade Parton
Building Long-EZ N916WP
www.longezpush.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477821#477821
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Relay Question: Adding control relay to SD-8 |
circuit
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 2/4/2018 1:45 PM, Airdog77 wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
>
>> If you describe the intended load and under what conditions it should be turned
on or off
>
> It's a 2.5A charging lead for a backup battery system that I don't want to draw
off the E-Bus in a scenario where my main alternator goes down and I'm on SD-8/E-Bus
only power. The condition is simply if the SD-8 is turned on for use
as the primary alternator --again, in a scenario where the main alternator is
taken offline-- then I would like this to be an automatic ancillary function
of the SD-8 being brought online (the opposite holds true as well: SD-8 OFF,
then the charging circuit is reestablished).
>
> In my attempt to integrate this after all the cables are run through bulkheads,
etc. my optimal access to this charging lead is in the nose, with my SD-8 in
the aft section of the aircraft (Long-EZ/pusher).
>
> Much thanks!
>
> Regards,
> Wade
>
> --------
> Airdog
> Wade Parton
> Building Long-EZ N916WP
> www.longezpush.com
What's it going to power? If it powers the same stuff as the main
battery, simply upsizing the main battery might make more sense.
On the other hand, if it's in good condition it will be almost totally
topped off (fully charged) within minutes after engine start, so it
won't be sucking on the backup alternator at all.
If you're holding it in reserve in case of SD-8 failure *and* main
battery failure, why not use a fat Schottky diode to isolate it from
discharge? Schottky diodes are now cheap & widely available. (But double
failures in one flight might be less of a concern than airframe
structural failure...)
Charlie
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Relay Question: Adding control relay to SD-8 circuit |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
The backup battery should have its own disconnect switch that you can turn off
manually if need be. I do not think that it is necessary to disconnect the backup
battery if and when the main alternator fails. Assuming that the backup
battery is charged before takeoff, then it is not going to be much of a load on
the electrical system. If the main alternator fails and aux alternator has
trouble maintaining system voltage, then the main battery and backup battery can
supply part of the load. Most modern EFIS have their own backup battery.
Is another backup battery really necessary? What does ceengland7 think?
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477826#477826
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Relay Question: Adding control relay to SD-8 circuit |
| From: | "Airdog77" <Airdog77(at)gmail.com> |
Charlie,
> On the other hand, if it's in good condition it will be almost totally
> topped off (fully charged) within minutes after engine start, so it
> won't be sucking on the backup alternator at all.
Yes, this is correct.
> If you're holding it in reserve in case of SD-8 failure *and* main
> battery failure, why not use a fat Schottky diode to isolate it from
> discharge? Schottky diodes are now cheap & widely available. (But double
> failures in one flight might be less of a concern than airframe
> structural failure...)
It's not really about a totally battery failure. Yes, I do have panel items with
power inputs on the battery backup system as a tertiary backup in case of the
total doomsday scenario... then I have about 45 min worth of use on those components.
But my bigger concern is in the event of JUST a main alternator failure,
and I go to SD-8 alternator power only. I simply want to ensure that at
no time does the backup battery system decide it wants to starting charging
at 2.5 amps sucking up on/about 25-50% of my SD-8 output (depending on my engine
RPM).
I understand the likelihood of this event is low, but if it's simple and doable
enough I'd like to add in this circuit now (i.e. while the weather is COLD) before
I move on to more pressing aircraft build matters.
I'll definitely look at using a Schottky as well. Thanks!
Regards,
Wade
--------
Airdog
Wade Parton
Building Long-EZ N916WP
www.longezpush.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477827#477827
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Relay Question: Adding control relay to SD-8 circuit |
| From: | "Airdog77" <Airdog77(at)gmail.com> |
Joe,
Finally found that extra DPDT switch I swore I had on hand and made some slight
(yet painful) adjustments to fit that sucker in.
I'll simple go with an extra wire and add this as a checklist item.
Issue resolved!
Thanks for all the help,
Wade
--------
Airdog
Wade Parton
Building Long-EZ N916WP
www.longezpush.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477828#477828
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> |
Hey everybody, I did my first flight today!
Thanks everybody for all of your patience and question-answering you've
helped me with over the last couple years! To clamp the headset onto your
head, strap your airplane to your butt, turn on the avionics and see all of
these fancy colors and the little cute girl who talks to you is really
cool! Major dopamine rush!!!
No smoke was let out of the wires so I was pretty happy. A couple of
avionics tuning issues but so far most of the stuff is working good...
except.. one little thing
I have an SD- 20 alternator that is controlled by a LR3C-14 voltage
regulator. It had been working perfectly for numerous ground engine
run-ups idling Etc and then all of a sudden during the first flight it
stopped producing power.
Naturally I checked the voltage regulator sense and field circuit breakers
and they were not popped but I did pull and reset them however that did not
fix the problem.
Since I have two Independent Electrical systems I tied the two buses and
pressed on for my 1 hour and 35 minute flight.
Back on the ground I thought that since both systems are controlled by the
LR3C-14 voltage regulator I swapped the voltage regulator from the good
side to the offending side and the SD-20 alternator started producing power
again.
Since the other electrical system voltage regulator was not wired up (it
was being used to control the little SD-20) I tied the bus and loaded up
the electrical system and the little alternator produced 17 amps.
So I assumed it was the voltage regulator that was bad.
I then rewired up both systems as they are supposed to be wired up and
started the engine again and both voltage regulators are working fine...
Is there some kind of a reason why the little alternator would decide to
stop producing?
It never produced more than about 8 amps the whole flight so it's doubtful
it was overloaded.
During flight my safety scheme is to keep the two busses isolated and since
the bust I was open I could tell that the ampere reading on that side was
low and the voltage on that bus also began to drop so it was not just the
indicator that was the problem.
Any advice???
Thanks,
Bill Hunter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: First Flight!!! |
Welcome to the exclusive club, Bill!
On 05 Feb 2018 4:08 AM, "William Hunter" wrote:
> Hey everybody, I did my first flight today!
>
> Thanks everybody for all of your patience and question-answering you've
> helped me with over the last couple years! To clamp the headset onto your
> head, strap your airplane to your butt, turn on the avionics and see all of
> these fancy colors and the little cute girl who talks to you is really
> cool! Major dopamine rush!!!
>
> No smoke was let out of the wires so I was pretty happy. A couple of
> avionics tuning issues but so far most of the stuff is working good...
> except.. one little thing
>
> I have an SD- 20 alternator that is controlled by a LR3C-14 voltage
> regulator. It had been working perfectly for numerous ground engine
> run-ups idling Etc and then all of a sudden during the first flight it
> stopped producing power.
>
> Naturally I checked the voltage regulator sense and field circuit breakers
> and they were not popped but I did pull and reset them however that did not
> fix the problem.
>
> Since I have two Independent Electrical systems I tied the two buses and
> pressed on for my 1 hour and 35 minute flight.
>
> Back on the ground I thought that since both systems are controlled by the
> LR3C-14 voltage regulator I swapped the voltage regulator from the good
> side to the offending side and the SD-20 alternator started producing power
> again.
>
> Since the other electrical system voltage regulator was not wired up (it
> was being used to control the little SD-20) I tied the bus and loaded up
> the electrical system and the little alternator produced 17 amps.
>
> So I assumed it was the voltage regulator that was bad.
>
> I then rewired up both systems as they are supposed to be wired up and
> started the engine again and both voltage regulators are working fine...
>
> Is there some kind of a reason why the little alternator would decide to
> stop producing?
>
> It never produced more than about 8 amps the whole flight so it's doubtful
> it was overloaded.
>
> During flight my safety scheme is to keep the two busses isolated and
> since the bust I was open I could tell that the ampere reading on that side
> was low and the voltage on that bus also began to drop so it was not just
> the indicator that was the problem.
>
> Any advice???
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill Hunter
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: First Flight!!! |
Actually... I should have written the subject line as "First
Re-Flight"...spell check took over...
This was a flying airplane that I completely tore apart and rebuilt so I am
not completely in that "exclusive club" ... more like the "excusive club"
But hey... it is still an accomplishment that I am happy about... if this
SD-20 will put out some juice... reliably.
Thanks,
Bill Hunter
On Feb 4, 2018 8:01 PM, "Bob Verwey" wrote:
> Welcome to the exclusive club, Bill!
>
> On 05 Feb 2018 4:08 AM, "William Hunter"
> wrote:
>
>> Hey everybody, I did my first flight today!
>>
>> Thanks everybody for all of your patience and question-answering you've
>> helped me with over the last couple years! To clamp the headset onto your
>> head, strap your airplane to your butt, turn on the avionics and see all of
>> these fancy colors and the little cute girl who talks to you is really
>> cool! Major dopamine rush!!!
>>
>> No smoke was let out of the wires so I was pretty happy. A couple of
>> avionics tuning issues but so far most of the stuff is working good...
>> except.. one little thing
>>
>> I have an SD- 20 alternator that is controlled by a LR3C-14 voltage
>> regulator. It had been working perfectly for numerous ground engine
>> run-ups idling Etc and then all of a sudden during the first flight it
>> stopped producing power.
>>
>> Naturally I checked the voltage regulator sense and field circuit
>> breakers and they were not popped but I did pull and reset them however
>> that did not fix the problem.
>>
>> Since I have two Independent Electrical systems I tied the two buses and
>> pressed on for my 1 hour and 35 minute flight.
>>
>> Back on the ground I thought that since both systems are controlled by
>> the LR3C-14 voltage regulator I swapped the voltage regulator from the good
>> side to the offending side and the SD-20 alternator started producing power
>> again.
>>
>> Since the other electrical system voltage regulator was not wired up (it
>> was being used to control the little SD-20) I tied the bus and loaded up
>> the electrical system and the little alternator produced 17 amps.
>>
>> So I assumed it was the voltage regulator that was bad.
>>
>> I then rewired up both systems as they are supposed to be wired up and
>> started the engine again and both voltage regulators are working fine...
>>
>> Is there some kind of a reason why the little alternator would decide to
>> stop producing?
>>
>> It never produced more than about 8 amps the whole flight so it's
>> doubtful it was overloaded.
>>
>> During flight my safety scheme is to keep the two busses isolated and
>> since the bust I was open I could tell that the ampere reading on that side
>> was low and the voltage on that bus also began to drop so it was not just
>> the indicator that was the problem.
>>
>> Any advice???
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Bill Hunter
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Hunter" <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Continuous Squelch Noise With SV-1000 Display On |
I am getting a continuous squelch type noise when I have one of the Dynon
screens receiving ships power.
The Avionics system is two Skyview SV1000 displays, a Dynon radio, a Garmin
GTN - 650, and an SL-15 audio panel.
The squelch noise is continuous regardless if the engine is running or not
so I have eliminated any noise from the alternator system. And I have also
disconnected any battery chargers so that the system is running only on
airplane battery. I also turned off all shop lights
When I first fired up the system it sounded like the squelch was activated
on a radio meaning the continuous White Noise sound was in the headsets and/
or the overhead speaker however when somebody would talk on the radio the
white noise would go away and the transmission would come out completely
clear. The nose is loud and is exactly the same sound the radios make when
the squelch switch is in the squelch position.so I thought it was the
squelch button/switch.
I turned off the Dynon radio and I also turned off the Garmin and the sound
continued so those sources of either noise and or squelch were eliminated.
I began pulling all of the circuit breakers out one at a time and the sound
continued until I pulled out the circuit breaker that powers the left side
Dynon screen. The squelch noise stopped even though the backup battery was
powering the display.
Push the circuit breaker in and the noise started again...pull out the CB
and the noise stops and the screen stays on using its backup battery power.
So I have confirmed that the only source of noise in the headsets is when
the circuit breaker for the left screen is pushed in.
Someone on the Dynon forum suggested that it could be a ground loop. The
airplane is a composite and all of the ground wires from the instrument
panel go to one copper bus bar near the instrument panel and then from the
ground bus I have a 12 AWG wire going to the battery negative cable.
Does anybody have any recommendations for troubleshooting in addition to
what I have done thus far?
AS ALWAYS.Thanks for any feedback, experience, and or suggestions!
..
Cheers!!!
Bill Hunter
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Continuous Squelch Noise With SV-1000 Display |
On
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 2/5/2018 10:22 AM, William Hunter wrote:
>
> I am getting a continuous squelch type noise when I have one of the
> Dynon screens receiving ships power.
>
> The Avionics system is two Skyview SV1000 displays, a Dynon radio, a
> Garmin GTN - 650, and an SL-15 audio panel.
>
> The squelch noise is continuous regardless if the engine is running or
> not so I have eliminated any noise from the alternator system. And I
> have also disconnected any battery chargers so that the system is
> running only on airplane battery. I also turned off all shop lights
>
> When I first fired up the system it sounded like the squelch was
> activated on a radio meaning the continuous White Noise sound was in
> the headsets and/ or the overhead speaker however when somebody would
> talk on the radio the white noise would go away and the transmission
> would come out completely clear. The nose is loud and is exactly the
> same sound the radios make when the squelch switch is in the squelch
> positionso I thought it was the squelch button/switch.
>
> I turned off the Dynon radio and I also turned off the Garmin and the
> sound continued so those sources of either noise and or squelch were
> eliminated.
>
> I began pulling all of the circuit breakers out one at a time and the
> sound continued until I pulled out the circuit breaker that powers the
> left side Dynon screen. The squelch noise stopped even though the
> backup battery was powering the display.
>
> Push the circuit breaker in and the noise started again...pull out the
> CB and the noise stops and the screen stays on using its backup
> battery power.
>
> So I have confirmed that the only source of noise in the headsets is
> when the circuit breaker for the left screen is pushed in.
>
> Someone on the Dynon forum suggested that it could be a ground loop.
> The airplane is a composite and all of the ground wires from the
> instrument panel go to one copper bus bar near the instrument panel
> and then from the ground bus I have a 12 AWG wire going to the battery
> negative cable.
>
> Does anybody have any recommendations for troubleshooting in addition
> to what I have done thus far?
>
> AS ALWAYSThanks for any feedback, experience, and or suggestions!
>
> ..
>
> Cheers!!!
>
> Bill Hunter
>
You said 'left side Dynon'. Do you have a pair? If so, can you swap
units left/right & repeat the test? If the noise follows the box, then
there's likely a defect in the box itself (probably has a 'switcher'
power supply inside that's generating the white noise). If the internal
backup battery is something lower than 12V, like a 4.5V or 6V battery,
that would raise the odds that it's an internal switching type power
supply generating the noise.
If the noise doesn't follow the box, then I'd start looking at wiring.
Charlie
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Continuous Squelch Noise With SV-1000 Display On |
One thing you might try, if the Dynon boxes are tray mounted, is to swap the
boxes. If the problem follows the box, then it=99s internal to the l
eft box. If not, it=99s external.
Eric
> On Feb 5, 2018, at 8:22 AM, William Hunter wr
ote:
>
> I am getting a continuous squelch type noise when I have one of the Dynon s
creens receiving ships power.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Continuous Squelch Noise With SV-1000 Display |
On
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
I strongly suggest calling Dynon directly. Their tech support is first
rate. Tech support best deals with specific problems over the phone,
while their forum is better for general problems.
The back up battery is 12 V, 12.25 when fully charged.
I have same system, except SL30 and GTN 650, no Dynon radio, and PS Eng
intercom/audio panel.
On 2/5/2018 9:45 AM, Charlie England wrote:
> On 2/5/2018 10:22 AM, William Hunter wrote:
>>
>> I am getting a continuous squelch type noise when I have one of the
>> Dynon screens receiving ships power.
>>
>> The Avionics system is two Skyview SV1000 displays, a Dynon radio, a
>> Garmin GTN - 650, and an SL-15 audio panel.
>>
>> The squelch noise is continuous regardless if the engine is running or
>> not so I have eliminated any noise from the alternator system. And I
>> have also disconnected any battery chargers so that the system is
>> running only on airplane battery. I also turned off all shop lights
> You said 'left side Dynon'. Do you have a pair? If so, can you swap
> units left/right & repeat the test? If the noise follows the box, then
> there's likely a defect in the box itself (probably has a 'switcher'
> power supply inside that's generating the white noise). If the internal
> backup battery is something lower than 12V, like a 4.5V or 6V battery,
> that would raise the odds that it's an internal switching type power
> supply generating the noise.
>
> If the noise doesn't follow the box, then I'd start looking at wiring.
>
> Charlie
>
>
> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>
>
>
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Continuous Squelch Noise With SV-1000 Display On |
yup... I called a Dynon tech support.
He was stumped as well for a while and then after we did some
troubleshooting he remembered a possible fix and then he was able to walk
me through an internal squelch setting that is in one of the setup pages. I
think it has solved the problem but I will wait on that definitive answer
until I go and fly again but I think we got it!
Thanks,
Bill Hunter
On Feb 5, 2018 12:58 PM, "Kelly McMullen" wrote:
> kellym(at)aviating.com>
>
> I strongly suggest calling Dynon directly. Their tech support is first
> rate. Tech support best deals with specific problems over the phone, while
> their forum is better for general problems.
> The back up battery is 12 V, 12.25 when fully charged.
> I have same system, except SL30 and GTN 650, no Dynon radio, and PS Eng
> intercom/audio panel.
>
> On 2/5/2018 9:45 AM, Charlie England wrote:
>
>> On 2/5/2018 10:22 AM, William Hunter wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I am getting a continuous squelch type noise when I have one of the
>>> Dynon screens receiving ships power.
>>>
>>> The Avionics system is two Skyview SV1000 displays, a Dynon radio, a
>>> Garmin GTN - 650, and an SL-15 audio panel.
>>>
>>> The squelch noise is continuous regardless if the engine is running or
>>> not so I have eliminated any noise from the alternator system. And I have
>>> also disconnected any battery chargers so that the system is running only
>>> on airplane battery. I also turned off all shop lights
>>>
>>
> You said 'left side Dynon'. Do you have a pair? If so, can you swap units
>> left/right & repeat the test? If the noise follows the box, then there's
>> likely a defect in the box itself (probably has a 'switcher' power supply
>> inside that's generating the white noise). If the internal backup battery
>> is something lower than 12V, like a 4.5V or 6V battery, that would raise
>> the odds that it's an internal switching type power supply generating the
>> noise.
>>
>> If the noise doesn't follow the box, then I'd start looking at wiring.
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>> > =link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon>
>> Virus-free. www.avast.com > il?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&
>> utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link>
>>
>> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gerald Farek <gfarek(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Continuous Squelch Noise With SV-1000 Display On |
What was the detailed answer?
Sent from my iPhone
> On Feb 5, 2018, at 3:14 PM, William Hunter wr
ote:
>
> yup... I called a Dynon tech support.
>
>
> He was stumped as well for a while and then after we did some troubleshoot
ing he remembered a possible fix and then he was able to walk me through an i
nternal squelch setting that is in one of the setup pages. I think it has so
lved the problem but I will wait on that definitive answer until I go and fl
y again but I think we got it!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill Hunter
>
>> On Feb 5, 2018 12:58 PM, "Kelly McMullen" wrote:
com>
>>
>> I strongly suggest calling Dynon directly. Their tech support is first ra
te. Tech support best deals with specific problems over the phone, while the
ir forum is better for general problems.
>> The back up battery is 12 V, 12.25 when fully charged.
>> I have same system, except SL30 and GTN 650, no Dynon radio, and PS Eng i
ntercom/audio panel.
>>
>>> On 2/5/2018 9:45 AM, Charlie England wrote:
>>>> On 2/5/2018 10:22 AM, William Hunter wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am getting a continuous squelch type noise when I have one of the Dyn
on screens receiving ships power.
>>>>
>>>> The Avionics system is two Skyview SV1000 displays, a Dynon radio, a Ga
rmin GTN - 650, and an SL-15 audio panel.
>>>>
>>>> The squelch noise is continuous regardless if the engine is running or n
ot so I have eliminated any noise from the alternator system. And I have als
o disconnected any battery chargers so that the system is running only on ai
rplane battery. I also turned off all shop lights
>>
>>> You said 'left side Dynon'. Do you have a pair? If so, can you swap unit
s left/right & repeat the test? If the noise follows the box, then there's l
ikely a defect in the box itself (probably has a 'switcher' power supply ins
ide that's generating the white noise). If the internal backup battery is so
mething lower than 12V, like a 4.5V or 6V battery, that would raise the odds
that it's an internal switching type power supply generating the noise.
>>>
>>> If the noise doesn't follow the box, then I'd start looking at wiring.
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>>
>>> Vi
rus-free. www.avast.com
>>>
>>> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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>> =========================
>>
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 inquiry |
| From: | "bcone1381" <bcone1964(at)gmail.com> |
More Questions.
I took a screen shot of a small part of the Z-10/8 wiring diagram. Focus with
me on the bus tie between the Main Power Bus and the Endurance Bus. The Endurance
Bus gets its primary feed from the Main Power bus thru the Diode, and its
typical of the diagrams in AEC.
This circuit is unprotected....no fuse, no circuit breaker, no current limiter,
no fuse link. I guess thats ok., but seems abnormal. Can I have some feedback?
I argue with myself that its because we want a reliable E-bus feed. Then I see
that the diagrams in AEC fuse the Alternate Feed from the Hot Battery Bus.
--------
Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477862#477862
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/pdf_screen_shot_2018_02_05_at_85452_pm_104.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 inquiry |
At 08:07 PM 2/5/2018, you wrote:
>
>More Questions.
>
>I took a screen shot of a small part of the Z-10/8 wiring
>diagram. Focus with me on the bus tie between the Main Power Bus
>and the Endurance Bus. The Endurance Bus gets its primary feed from
>the Main Power bus thru the Diode, and its typical of the diagrams in AEC.
>
>This circuit is unprotected....no fuse, no circuit breaker, no
>current limiter, no fuse link. I guess thats ok., but seems
>abnormal. Can I have some feedback?
The e-bus and main bus should be located close to each
other. The wires that connect the normal feedpath diode
are short. Risk to those wires is nil. No protection
warranted.
>I argue with myself that its because we want a reliable E-bus feed.
You have two feed paths . . . loss of one is unlikely,
loss of both is exceedingly unlikely.
> Then I see that the diagrams in AEC fuse the Alternate Feed from
> the Hot Battery Bus.
That's a long feeder that's not so free of risk.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Splicing shielded cables |
Does anyone have any suggestions for neat ways to splice together two or three
2- or 4- core shielded cables?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: Splicing shielded cables |
Alec,
When I needed to do that, I adapted the technique on this page:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/pigtail/pigtail.html
Cheers,
-- Art Z.
On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 8:56 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions for neat ways to splice together two or
> three 2- or 4- core shielded cables?
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what
am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Splicing shielded cables |
Its not clear to me how best to adapt that technique to four cores and a screen,
three ways. Can you elaborate?
On Feb 14, 2018, at 10:31 PM, Art Zemon wrote:
Alec,
When I needed to do that, I adapted the technique on this page: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/pigtail/pigtail.html
Cheers,
-- Art Z.
On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 8:56 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
Does anyone have any suggestions for neat ways to splice together two or three
2- or 4- core shielded cables?
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I?
And if not now, when?" Hillel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: Splicing shielded cables |
Alec,
Here is precisely what you want:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Shielded_Wire_Splicing/S_Wire_Splice.h
tml
Cheers,
-- Art Z.
On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 10:38 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
>
> It=99s not clear to me how best to adapt that technique to four cor
es and a
> screen, three ways. Can you elaborate?
>
>
> On Feb 14, 2018, at 10:31 PM, Art Zemon wrote:
>
> Alec,
>
> When I needed to do that, I adapted the technique on this page:
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/pigtail/pigtail.html
>
> Cheers,
> -- Art Z.
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 8:56 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions for neat ways to splice together two or
> three 2- or 4- core shielded cables?
>
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what
> am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what
am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Splicing shielded cables |
Awesome, thank you!
On Feb 15, 2018, at 07:30, Art Zemon wrote:
Alec,
Here is precisely what you want: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Shield
ed_Wire_Splicing/S_Wire_Splice.html
Cheers,
-- Art Z.
> On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 10:38 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
>
> It=99s not clear to me how best to adapt that technique to four core
s and a screen, three ways. Can you elaborate?
>
>
>
> On Feb 14, 2018, at 10:31 PM, Art Zemon wrote:
>
> Alec,
>
> When I needed to do that, I adapted the technique on this page: http://www
.aeroelectric.com/articles/pigtail/pigtail.html
>
> Cheers,
> -- Art Z.
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 8:56 PM, Alec Myers wrote:
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions for neat ways to splice together two or t
hree 2- or 4- core shielded cables?
>
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what a
m I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
>
>
> =========================
==
> -
> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.c
om/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> =========================
> FORUMS -
> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> =========================
> WIKI -
> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> =========================
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> =========================
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am
I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Cox <rv10pro(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Splicing shielded cables |
Raycgem Shield Splice. Comes with environment splices 4 plus one solder
sleeve requiring a heat gun. Will look up part number for you. Used them
at Alaska Air.
John Cox
On Feb 14, 2018 19:02, "Alec Myers" wrote:
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions for neat ways to splice together two or
> three 2- or 4- core shielded cables?
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Splicing shielded cables |
John
They look great, but they=99re $30 ea. at Mouser, if they=99re t
he right part!
> On Feb 15, 2018, at 08:49, John Cox wrote:
>
> Raycgem Shield Splice. Comes with environment splices 4 plus one solder s
leeve requiring a heat gun. Will look up part number for you. Used them at
Alaska Air.
>
> John Cox
>
>> On Feb 14, 2018 19:02, "Alec Myers" wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone have any suggestions for neat ways to splice together two or t
hree 2- or 4- core shielded cables?
>>
>>
>>
>> =========================
>> -
>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> =========================
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> =========================
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> =========================
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributio
n
>> =========================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> |
| Subject: | Yesterday, I just had my first electrical system failure... |
...and it was completely a non-event with my Z-14. After takeoff from
Pittsburgh's KAGC and in the soup associated with the cold front between
me and my destination in NC, one of my low voltage lights lit up. I
looked at the voltage readings for each bus, it was immediately apparent
I was running down the battery on bus2. Nothing else seemed amiss. So I
cross connected the 2 buses, the voltage light went out and flew on for
another 1.3 hours. I landed with 2 charged batteries, everything else
working but no charging available on bus2 connected to the 20amp alternator.
Problem determination begins tomorrow following the troubleshooting
procedures for the LR3 controller. I will report back.
Thanks all!
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "mhealydds" <mhealydds(at)gmail.com> |
I have an RV-10 that is about one year and one half old and have had a charging
issue for at least a year of it. I have a Plane Power 60 amp alternator (and
back-up Plane Power 30 amp alternator) with a Advanced Quick Panel System. Here
is east has been going on....
1. My primary alternator never get adequate charge. It hovers around 12.5 to 12.8
volts, sometimes to 13.2 or so, but never above 14 volts.
2. The primary alternator makes an whine when on.
3. The primary alternator shuts off intermittently (I see Amps of down and whine
goes off) and then will come back on on its own later or sometimes will when
I reset field switch.
4. I can sometimes get full charge (14.2) on ground with only some of avionics
on (one EFIS, nav/strobes only).
5. My secondary alternator does not do all this. It works indicated.
Here is what I have tried and checked...
1. Checked and adjusted belt tension on alternator.
2. Added alternator filter.
3. Checked continuity and tightness on all connections.
4. Changed and checked alternator ANL fuse.
5. Got completely new alternator and replaced it.
6. Changed terminal plug on alternator.
7. Been on phone with plane power numerous times and ruined through trouble shooting
and can't seem to find and issue with alternator itself.
8. Have not had alternator checked but since I have two alternators doing same
thing and both are basically new, I doubt that is the case, but possible.
9. Volt reading on EFIS and multimeter at AFS middle same and same on both EFISs
Any thoughts on what else to check or fix. I feel like I am missing something obvious.
The plane with run with with the 12.8 or so volts but that is not what
it should be. Could it be AFS module (they don't thing so at AFS), battery,
do I need larger gauge wire (I have 8 now). I just don't know know anymore and
and stuck on my true amateur status.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478108#478108
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Charging Issue |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Measure the current going to the alternator field. An easy way to do that might
be to pull the field fuse (or trip circuit breaker) and connect an ammeter in
its place. I would expect between 1 and 4 amps of field current.
After use, do not forget to put the meter back on voltage setting.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478158#478158
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Charging Issue |
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
I don't recall if it was mentioned, but be very certain the alternator
is grounded to the crankcase and the crankcase has a good ground to the
firewall or central grounding point. Lack of ground or poor ground could
produce the symptoms.
On 2/20/2018 6:56 PM, user9253 wrote:
>
> Measure the current going to the alternator field. An easy way to do that might
be to pull the field fuse (or trip circuit breaker) and connect an ammeter
in its place. I would expect between 1 and 4 amps of field current.
> After use, do not forget to put the meter back on voltage setting.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478158#478158
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Yesterday, I just had my first electrical system |
failure...
| From: | Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> |
Update: I completed the problem determination procedures for the LR3C
regulator and called the results into B&C. They said it looked like the
LR3C failed and that it could be repaired with quick turnaround.
I chose to buy new due to the hard to access location I mounted my units
in. Once I swap them, I'll send the old one in for repair and keep it
as a spare.
On 2/17/2018 4:12 PM, Bill Watson wrote:
>
>
> ...and it was completely a non-event with my Z-14. After takeoff from
> Pittsburgh's KAGC and in the soup associated with the cold front
> between me and my destination in NC, one of my low voltage lights lit
> up. I looked at the voltage readings for each bus, it was immediately
> apparent I was running down the battery on bus2. Nothing else seemed
> amiss. So I cross connected the 2 buses, the voltage light went out
> and flew on for another 1.3 hours. I landed with 2 charged batteries,
> everything else working but no charging available on bus2 connected to
> the 20amp alternator.
>
> Problem determination begins tomorrow following the troubleshooting
> procedures for the LR3 controller. I will report back.
>
> Thanks all!
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 inquiry |
| From: | "mmcelrea" <mmcelrea(at)hotmail.com> |
Why is there no protection on the feed wire to the main bus from the battery contactor?
Assuming the contactor is on the firewall fwd and the main bus is on
a sub panel in front of the main panel its going to be a wire of potentially a
couple of feet long.
Also why are the amp outputs monitored from both alternators? If the main alternator
fails and the amps in/out of the battery is monitored instead of the sd8
output then load sharing might be easier? If you knew that the battery was being
discharged would you have an idea what endurance you might have?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478218#478218
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 inquiry |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Most aircraft are wired without protection on the main bus feeder.
The theory is that if the feeder shorts to sheet metal, then the sheet
metal will burn away before the feeder burns in two. The most likely
place for the feeder to short out is where it passes through the firewall.
If properly installed, then that will not happen.
As for a battery bus, adding a fuse is likely to cause a problem,
not eliminate one.
There are 3 possible locations for an ammeter: alternator output,
battery current, or aircraft load. Each location has its advantages
and disadvantages. There has been much debate about which
location is best. It is a matter of personal preference. No matter
which location is chosen, the important thing is for the pilot to
understand what the ammeter is displaying. For example, suppose
the builder installs the ammeter to measure aircraft load. The aircraft
is then sold. While on a cross country trip, the new owner notices that
the voltage is low. He is not concerned because the ammeter is showing
normal current. He does not realize that the alternator has failed and
the battery is running down. Actually an ammeter is not a necessity.
A voltmeter will tell the condition of the electrical system. If the voltage
drops much below 14, something is wrong. Do the troubleshooting on
the ground.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478231#478231
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Is this repairable? |
Ouch. I'm tying up the wires behind my panel and found this one with
damaged insulation. It is the mic key wire on a com radio.
Is there a way to repair it?
-- Art Z.
Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: Is this repairable? |
Hmmm. Trying again with the photo...
-- Art Z.
Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
On Feb 25, 2018 4:48 PM, "Art Zemon" wrote:
> Ouch. I'm tying up the wires behind my panel and found this one with
> damaged insulation. It is the mic key wire on a com radio.
>
> Is there a way to repair it?
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Is this repairable? |
No image attached; did you intend to send one? In any case, if it's a
single conductor with no shield, you'd have several options. Replace
completely (best & most hassle), or snip out the bad section & replace with
a good length of wire, using butt splice crimps or lap solder joints with
heat shrink, or cut it once near the damage & slide heat shrink over it,
long enough to cover damage and the repaired cut, or, wrap the damaged area
with quality electrical tape.
Those are options that came to mind quickly, more or less in descending
order of desirability. The last, while not sounding great, could be done in
a fashion that would be 'safe and effective'. Just not pretty. It worked
for decades in 110/220 volt house wiring to make up joints in electrical
boxes, before crimps & wire nuts became common.
Charlie
Virus-free.
www.avast.com
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 3:33 PM, Art Zemon wrote:
> Ouch. I'm tying up the wires behind my panel and found this one with
> damaged insulation. It is the mic key wire on a com radio.
>
> Is there a way to repair it?
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Is this repairable? |
Just saw the pic. If that's a subD connector with removable pins, use a pin
extractor to back out the damaged wire, cover the damaged area with heat
shrink, shrink it, and re-insert the terminal in the connector body *If the
pin isn't removable*, I confess I'd be looking for a roll of quality
electrical tape. Everything's a compromise, and that would be one I'd be
willing to make, though I realize others would not.
Charlie
Virus-free.
www.avast.com
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Art Zemon wrote:
> Hmmm. Trying again with the photo...
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
>
> On Feb 25, 2018 4:48 PM, "Art Zemon" wrote:
>
>> Ouch. I'm tying up the wires behind my panel and found this one with
>> damaged insulation. It is the mic key wire on a com radio.
>>
>> Is there a way to repair it?
>>
>> -- Art Z.
>>
>> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "The Kuffels" <kuffel(at)cyberport.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Is this repairable? |
Art,
<< damaged insulation. .. Is there a way to repair it? >>
<< removable pins,..back out the damaged wire, cover the damaged area with
heat shrink .. pin isn't removable*, I confess I'd be looking for a roll o
f quality electrical tape >>
An even simpler way is to buy some Liquid Tape in the Automotive section of
Wal-Mart. Even if the wire is buried deep you can reach it with a small a
rtist's brush. This product forms a durable, tough rubberized coating.
Tom
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charles Birdsall <cbirdsall6(at)cox.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Is this repairable? |
Art,
What Charlie suggests is entirely adequate and as long as the wire strands themselves
weren't damaged (the photo seems to indicate they aren't) then heat shrink
will probably last longer than the radio.
Having said that, I'm a perfectionist and on a new installation I'd replace the
whole wire. If the whole run is a nightmare to replace, I'd splice in a new wire
part way down the bundle - making the new wire long enough to get the butt
splice into an area where both sides of the splice can be supported without putting
undue strain on the wire/splice.
If for some reason the pin can't be removed, an alternative would be to cut the
wire at some handy point down the wire bundle and sliding the heat shrink back
up the wire to the damaged point. Then butt-splice the wire back together. Choose
the splice point somewhere along the bundle where both sides of the splice
can be supported to minimize stress on the splice.
Chuck
> On February 25, 2018 at 4:10 PM Art Zemon wrote:
>
> Hmmm. Trying again with the photo...
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
>
> On Feb 25, 2018 4:48 PM, "Art Zemon" < art(at)zemon.name mailto:art(at)zemon.name > wrote:
>
> > > Ouch. I'm tying up the wires behind my panel and found this
one with damaged insulation. It is the mic key wire on a com radio.
> >
> > Is there a way to repair it?
> >
> > -- Art Z.
> >
> > Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
> >
> > >
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Is this repairable? |
| From: | C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com> |
I find that E6000/shoe goo works as good or better than most sealants
and is less invasive as long as significant corrosion hasn't started.
Ken
On 25/02/2018 6:04 PM, Charles Birdsall wrote:
> Art,
>
> What Charlie suggests is entirely adequate and as long as the wire
> strands themselves weren't damaged (the photo seems to indicate they
> aren't) then heat shrink will probably last longer than the radio.
>
> Having said that, I'm a perfectionist and on a new installation I'd
> replace the whole wire. If the whole run is a nightmare to replace,
> I'd splice in a new wire part way down the bundle - making the new
> wire long enough to get the butt splice into an area where both sides
> of the splice can be supported without putting undue strain on the
> wire/splice.
>
> If for some reason the pin can't be removed, an alternative would be
> to cut the wire at some handy point down the wire bundle and sliding
> the heat shrink back up the wire to the damaged point. Then
> butt-splice the wire back together. Choose the splice point somewhere
> along the bundle where both sides of the splice can be supported to
> minimize stress on the splice.
>
> Chuck
>
>> On February 25, 2018 at 4:10 PM Art Zemon wrote:
>>
>> Hmmm. Trying again with the photo...
>>
>> -- Art Z.
>>
>> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
>>
>> On Feb 25, 2018 4:48 PM, "Art Zemon" < art(at)zemon.name
>> > wrote:
>>
>> Ouch. I'm tying up the wires behind my panel and found this one
>> with damaged insulation. It is the mic key wire on a com radio.
>>
>> Is there a way to repair it?
>>
>> -- Art Z.
>>
>> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | speedy11(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 inquiry |
Joe,
Can one assume that a Hall Effect would be installed on one of the three places
an ammeter would be installed?
It seems logical that a Hall Effect would be placed on the lead from the alternator.
Thus, it would correlate with the activation of the low voltage light.
How about a shunt? Same locations as ammeter?
Suppose you have two batteries. Hall Effect on the alternator lead and shunt on
the second battery + lead?
Stan
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13/8 inquiry
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Most aircraft are wired without protection on the main bus feeder.
The theory is that if the feeder shorts to sheet metal, then the sheet
metal will burn away before the feeder burns in two. The most likely
place for the feeder to short out is where it passes through the firewall.
If properly installed, then that will not happen.
As for a battery bus, adding a fuse is likely to cause a problem,
not eliminate one.
There are 3 possible locations for an ammeter: alternator output,
battery current, or aircraft load. Each location has its advantages
and disadvantages. There has been much debate about which
location is best. It is a matter of personal preference. No matter
which location is chosen, the important thing is for the pilot to
understand what the ammeter is displaying. For example, suppose
the builder installs the ammeter to measure aircraft load. The aircraft
is then sold. While on a cross country trip, the new owner notices that
the voltage is low. He is not concerned because the ammeter is showing
normal current. He does not realize that the alternator has failed and
the battery is running down. Actually an ammeter is not a necessity.
A voltmeter will tell the condition of the electrical system. If the voltage
drops much below 14, something is wrong. Do the troubleshooting on
the ground.
--------
Joe Gores
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: Is this repairable? |
Thanks everybody. Tomorrow morning, I will see if I can extract the pin and
add a piece of heat shrink. If not, I'll try a dab of E6000.
Cheers,
-- Art Z.
On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 7:42 PM, C&K wrote:
>
> I find that E6000/shoe goo works as good or better than most sealants and
> is less invasive as long as significant corrosion hasn't started.
> Ken
>
> On 25/02/2018 6:04 PM, Charles Birdsall wrote:
>
>> Art,
>>
>> What Charlie suggests is entirely adequate and as long as the wire
>> strands themselves weren't damaged (the photo seems to indicate they
>> aren't) then heat shrink will probably last longer than the radio.
>>
>> Having said that, I'm a perfectionist and on a new installation I'd
>> replace the whole wire. If the whole run is a nightmare to replace, I'd
>> splice in a new wire part way down the bundle - making the new wire long
>> enough to get the butt splice into an area where both sides of the splice
>> can be supported without putting undue strain on the wire/splice.
>>
>> If for some reason the pin can't be removed, an alternative would be to
>> cut the wire at some handy point down the wire bundle and sliding the heat
>> shrink back up the wire to the damaged point. Then butt-splice the wire
>> back together. Choose the splice point somewhere along the bundle where
>> both sides of the splice can be supported to minimize stress on the splice.
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>> On February 25, 2018 at 4:10 PM Art Zemon wrote:
>>>
>>> Hmmm. Trying again with the photo...
>>>
>>> -- Art Z.
>>>
>>> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
>>>
>>> On Feb 25, 2018 4:48 PM, "Art Zemon" < art(at)zemon.name >> art(at)zemon.name>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ouch. I'm tying up the wires behind my panel and found this one
>>> with damaged insulation. It is the mic key wire on a com radio.
>>>
>>> Is there a way to repair it?
>>>
>>> -- Art Z.
>>>
>>> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what
am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net |
| Subject: | Re: Is this repairable? |
Hi Art;
Presuming you con't disconnect one end and slip some shrink tubing over it, there
is a material called liquid adhesive tape, which can be painted on (much like
white-out). It even comes in different colors.
Cheers! Stu.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Art Zemon" <art(at)zemon.name>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2018 1:33:01 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Is this repairable?
Ouch. I'm tying up the wires behind my panel and found this one with damaged insulation.
It is the mic key wire on a com radio.
Is there a way to repair it?
-- Art Z.
Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 inquiry |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Stan,
It is up to the aircraft builder to decide how many and where to locate current
sensors. It does not matter if the sensors are shunt or hall effect type, as
long as each is compatible with its display. Some EFISs have inputs for more
than one current sensor. If a display only has one input, a selector switch
can choose which sensor to connect to the display. Your plan to use one hall
effect sensor and one shunt sensor will work, provided that the sensors are compatible
with the display(s).
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478269#478269
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Henry Hallam <henry(at)pericynthion.org.matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Is this repairable? |
FWIW Art, you absolutely must have the right pin extractor tool to get
those D-sub pins out. Available from our friends at B&C (link below) as
well as Digikey, or Fry's. It is simply not possible to make do without
this tool. (now watch me eat my words as somebody posts an alternate means
of pin removal)
https://www.bandc.aero/insertionextractiontoold-subpins.aspx
-Henry
On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 5:55 PM, Art Zemon wrote:
> Thanks everybody. Tomorrow morning, I will see if I can extract the pin
> and add a piece of heat shrink. If not, I'll try a dab of E6000.
>
> Cheers,
> -- Art Z.
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 7:42 PM, C&K wrote:
>
>>
>> I find that E6000/shoe goo works as good or better than most sealants and
>> is less invasive as long as significant corrosion hasn't started.
>> Ken
>>
>> On 25/02/2018 6:04 PM, Charles Birdsall wrote:
>>
>>> Art,
>>>
>>> What Charlie suggests is entirely adequate and as long as the wire
>>> strands themselves weren't damaged (the photo seems to indicate they
>>> aren't) then heat shrink will probably last longer than the radio.
>>>
>>> Having said that, I'm a perfectionist and on a new installation I'd
>>> replace the whole wire. If the whole run is a nightmare to replace, I'd
>>> splice in a new wire part way down the bundle - making the new wire long
>>> enough to get the butt splice into an area where both sides of the splice
>>> can be supported without putting undue strain on the wire/splice.
>>>
>>> If for some reason the pin can't be removed, an alternative would be to
>>> cut the wire at some handy point down the wire bundle and sliding the heat
>>> shrink back up the wire to the damaged point. Then butt-splice the wire
>>> back together. Choose the splice point somewhere along the bundle where
>>> both sides of the splice can be supported to minimize stress on the splice.
>>>
>>> Chuck
>>>
>>> On February 25, 2018 at 4:10 PM Art Zemon wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hmmm. Trying again with the photo...
>>>>
>>>> -- Art Z.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 25, 2018 4:48 PM, "Art Zemon" < art(at)zemon.name >>> art(at)zemon.name>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ouch. I'm tying up the wires behind my panel and found this one
>>>> with damaged insulation. It is the mic key wire on a com radio.
>>>>
>>>> Is there a way to repair it?
>>>>
>>>> -- Art Z.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> ===================================
>> -
>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.
>> matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> ===================================
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ===================================
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ===================================
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ===================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what
> am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: Is this repairable? |
Thanks, everybody, for the advice. I had no trouble extracting the pin (I
do have the right tool) and added a bit of heat shrink tubing and popped
the pin back into the connector.
Cheers,
-- Art Z.
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what
am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Cox <rv10pro(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Is this repairable? |
Use of a Raychem enviro-splice could avoid Pin Extraction if you have
access to the correct crimper.(Aircraft Spruce).
John Cox
On Feb 26, 2018 18:05, "Henry Hallam"
wrote:
> FWIW Art, you absolutely must have the right pin extractor tool to get
> those D-sub pins out. Available from our friends at B&C (link below) as
> well as Digikey, or Fry's. It is simply not possible to make do without
> this tool. (now watch me eat my words as somebody posts an alternate means
> of pin removal)
>
> https://www.bandc.aero/insertionextractiontoold-subpins.aspx
>
> -Henry
>
> On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 5:55 PM, Art Zemon wrote:
>
>> Thanks everybody. Tomorrow morning, I will see if I can extract the pin
>> and add a piece of heat shrink. If not, I'll try a dab of E6000.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -- Art Z.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 7:42 PM, C&K wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I find that E6000/shoe goo works as good or better than most sealants
>>> and is less invasive as long as significant corrosion hasn't started.
>>> Ken
>>>
>>> On 25/02/2018 6:04 PM, Charles Birdsall wrote:
>>>
>>>> Art,
>>>>
>>>> What Charlie suggests is entirely adequate and as long as the wire
>>>> strands themselves weren't damaged (the photo seems to indicate they
>>>> aren't) then heat shrink will probably last longer than the radio.
>>>>
>>>> Having said that, I'm a perfectionist and on a new installation I'd
>>>> replace the whole wire. If the whole run is a nightmare to replace, I'd
>>>> splice in a new wire part way down the bundle - making the new wire long
>>>> enough to get the butt splice into an area where both sides of the splice
>>>> can be supported without putting undue strain on the wire/splice.
>>>>
>>>> If for some reason the pin can't be removed, an alternative would be to
>>>> cut the wire at some handy point down the wire bundle and sliding the heat
>>>> shrink back up the wire to the damaged point. Then butt-splice the wire
>>>> back together. Choose the splice point somewhere along the bundle where
>>>> both sides of the splice can be supported to minimize stress on the splice.
>>>>
>>>> Chuck
>>>>
>>>> On February 25, 2018 at 4:10 PM Art Zemon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmmm. Trying again with the photo...
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Art Z.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 25, 2018 4:48 PM, "Art Zemon" < art(at)zemon.name >>>> art(at)zemon.name>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Ouch. I'm tying up the wires behind my panel and found this one
>>>>> with damaged insulation. It is the mic key wire on a com radio.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there a way to repair it?
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Art Z.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> ==========
>>> -
>>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.mat
>>> ronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>> ==========
>>> FORUMS -
>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> WIKI -
>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> b Site -
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> ==========
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>>
>> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself,
>> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Is this repairable? |
Art, just curious, any idea what caused the damage?
On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 4:43 PM, Art Zemon wrote:
> Thanks, everybody, for the advice. I had no trouble extracting the pin (I
> do have the right tool) and added a bit of heat shrink tubing and popped
> the pin back into the connector.
>
> Cheers,
> -- Art Z.
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what
> am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: Is this repairable? |
Ken,
Who knows. I have been assembling the wiring behind the panel, and there
has been work going on with sheet metal to support the top of the panel.
That connector is right up near the top so it would have been easy for
something to nick it. It was no big deal to extract the pin, add heat
shrink tubing, and reinstall the pin. Since the windshield is not yet
installed, the connector is easy to reach.
Cheers,
-- Art Z.
On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 7:57 PM, Ken Ryan wrote:
> Art, just curious, any idea what caused the damage?
>
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what
am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Is this repairable? |
| From: | Lyle Peterson <lyleap(at)centurylink.net> |
I have used a piece of brass tubing to extract pins. I have also used
other less sophisticated methods to painfully extract pins.
Pin extractors are also available at local auto parts stores and
possible in the aircraft electronics department of the big box building
supply stores.
Lyle
On 2/26/2018 6:57 PM, Henry Hallam wrote:
> FWIW Art, you absolutely must have the right pin extractor tool to get
> those D-sub pins out. Available from our friends at B&C (link below)
> as well as Digikey, or Fry's. It is simply not possible to make do
> without this tool. (now watch me eat my words as somebody posts an
> alternate means of pin removal)
>
> https://www.bandc.aero/insertionextractiontoold-subpins.aspx
>
> -Henry
>
> On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 5:55 PM, Art Zemon > wrote:
>
> Thanks everybody. Tomorrow morning, I will see if I can extract
> the pin and add a piece of heat shrink. If not, I'll try a dab of
> E6000.
>
> Cheers,
> -- Art Z.
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 7:42 PM, C&K > wrote:
>
> >
>
> I find that E6000/shoe goo works as good or better than most
> sealants and is less invasive as long as significant corrosion
> hasn't started.
> Ken
>
> On 25/02/2018 6:04 PM, Charles Birdsall wrote:
>
> Art,
>
> What Charlie suggests is entirely adequate and as long as
> the wire strands themselves weren't damaged (the photo
> seems to indicate they aren't) then heat shrink will
> probably last longer than the radio.
>
> Having said that, I'm a perfectionist and on a new
> installation I'd replace the whole wire. If the whole run
> is a nightmare to replace, I'd splice in a new wire part
> way down the bundle - making the new wire long enough to
> get the butt splice into an area where both sides of the
> splice can be supported without putting undue strain on
> the wire/splice.
>
> If for some reason the pin can't be removed, an
> alternative would be to cut the wire at some handy point
> down the wire bundle and sliding the heat shrink back up
> the wire to the damaged point. Then butt-splice the wire
> back together. Choose the splice point somewhere along the
> bundle where both sides of the splice can be supported to
> minimize stress on the splice.
>
> Chuck
>
> On February 25, 2018 at 4:10 PM Art Zemon
> > wrote:
>
> Hmmm. Trying again with the photo...
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre
> typos.
>
> On Feb 25, 2018 4:48 PM, "Art Zemon" < art(at)zemon.name
> >> wrote:
>
> Ouch. I'm tying up the wires behind my panel and
> found this one
> with damaged insulation. It is the mic key wire on
> a com radio.
>
> Is there a way to repair it?
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and
> bizarre typos.
>
>
> ==========
> -
> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navig
> <http://www.matronics.com/Navig>ator?AeroElectric-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> <http://forums.matronics.com>
> ==========
> WIKI -
> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> <http://wiki.matronics.com>
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contr
> <http://www.matronics.com/contr>ibution
> ==========
>
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for
> myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: Is this repairable? |
Meh. Pin tools are cheap. Five bucks if you can't find one locally
https://www.steinair.com/product/insertionremoval-tool-for-standard-d-sub-pins-mil-spec/
Cheers,
-- Art Z.
On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 8:19 PM, Lyle Peterson
wrote:
> I have used a piece of brass tubing to extract pins. I have also used
> other less sophisticated methods to painfully extract pins.
>
> Pin extractors are also available at local auto parts stores and possible
> in the aircraft electronics department of the big box building supply
> stores.
>
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what
am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Is this repairable? |
| From: | Harley Dixon <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
>>now watch me eat my words as somebody posts an alternate means of pin
removal<<
Yeah...start munching!
I made one years ago when I was working for a living using a very thin
brass tube the right diameter and soldering a T handle to it. Still have
it somewhere around here, and use it when needed.
Harley
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 2/26/2018 7:57 PM, Henry Hallam wrote:
> FWIW Art, you absolutely must have the right pin extractor tool to get
> those D-sub pins out. Available from our friends at B&C (link below)
> as well as Digikey, or Fry's. It is simply not possible to make do
> without this tool. (now watch me eat my words as somebody posts an
> alternate means of pin removal)
>
> https://www.bandc.aero/insertionextractiontoold-subpins.aspx
>
> -Henry
>
> On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 5:55 PM, Art Zemon > wrote:
>
> Thanks everybody. Tomorrow morning, I will see if I can extract
January 07, 2018 - March 07, 2018
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-of