AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-oj

May 09, 2018 - May 21, 2018



      As for antenna grounding, I would stick with the manufacturer's
      instructions. For example:
      
      >From COMANT
      
      Aircraft Skin Surface and Mounting Preparation
      The electrical bonding of the antenna to the aircraft ground is highly
      important. If this is not done properly, antenna performance
      characteristics may become distorted and nulls may appear in the antenna
      radiation pattern. This, in turn, may cause erratic navigational readings
      or signal drop out. The electrical bonding of the antennas to the aircraft
      skin is best accomplished by direct *metal-to metal contact of the antenna
      base to the aircraft skin*. To accomplish this, *the aircraft paint in the
      mounting area will need to be removed* and the surface alodined to protect
      aluminum against corrosion. An alternate method for providing electrical
      bonding is through the mounting screws, which attach to a backing plate
      inside the aircraft skin. Remove any interior paint in the area where the
      backing plate is placed to assure a good ground. Coat this area with
      alodine to minimize corrosion. To test the electrical bonding of the blade
      to the aircraft, a reading of .003 ohms between the antenna base plate and
      ground should be achieved.
      
      >From RAMI
      
      CLEAN METAL SURFACE FOR GOOD GROUND CONNECTION
      
      
      =8B
      
      On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 8:00 AM, FLYaDIVE  wrote:
      
      > I'm not  sure who asked the question...
      >
      > You DO NOT remove paint from  the exterior of the plane.
      > You do need a GOOD electrical connection between the antenna and the plan
      e
      > to create a Ground Plane.
      > I have found many antennas be painted or powder coated which
      > reduces/elininates the electrical contact area.
      > My trick is to make sure the Mounting Hole Area of the antenna makes a
      > good electrical ground connection with the Screws.
      > To do this I remove the paint INSIDE of the screw counter-sink.  I do thi
      s
      > with a 100 deg counter-sink tool.
      > The next part of the trick to to make the through hole on the Plane a nic
      e
      > small tight fit so the screw has to be SCREWED into/through the skin.
      > As for the interior primer...  It is a Paint primer or Chem-Film Primer?
      > Paint - YES, it has to be removed ONLY in the area around screws.  NOT th
      e
      > entire area.
      > Chem-Film - NO, it does not have to be remove UNLESS it is VERY dark in
      > color.  Darker Chem-Film can be insulation.
      > Not sure which level you have?  REMOVE IT!  Using Scotch Brite.  Again,
      > you only need the area around the screw for the diameter of the washer/lo
      ck
      > washer.
      > You can do a simple check to the quality of your work by taking a
      > resistance reading from the antenna to a remote part of the plane.  ZERO
      > OHMS is what you are looking  for.
      > After you are all done with the mounting and testing you can paint over
      > the external screw heads sealing off moisture.
      > As for the area around the external antenna mount...  Do what the
      > manufacture recommends - gasket and/or RTV.
      > I like using RTV as a sealant even with a gasket.
      >
      > Barry
      >
      >
      > On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 12:42 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
      > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
      >
      >> At 10:04 AM 5/8/2018, you wrote:
      >>
      >> I am installing two new antennae - one Comant 122 for comm and one
      >> standard ball tipped 3 inch transponder=type for an Echo UAT.
      >> I am retaining two older antennae - one comm and one transponder.  The
      >> real estate for mounting is limited since they are all mounted on the
      >> fuselage underside of an RV-8.  I should be able to come close to the
      >> desired one meter separation between all antennae.
      >> My question is - do I need to remove exterior paint and interior primer
      >> paint at the mounting location of the new antennae?  Or is the mounting
      >> screw contact sufficient to connect with the ground plane?  I will, of
      >> course, have a doubler for mounting each antenna.
      >> Thanks
      >> Stan Sutterfield
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> https://goo.gl/skAS8R
      >>
      >>
      >>   Bob . . .
      >>
      >
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 09, 2018
Subject: Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals
I have seen these referred to as "relay terminals." I think they might be categorized that way on Mouser. On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:35 AM, Charlie England wrote: > I've got (or had; not sure) a string of those in a junk box somewhere that > I bought when I was roughly college age & didn't know better, about 45 > years ago. I have no desire to locate them again. :-) Similar products I > found talk about 'low insertion force', which is kinda bothersome; makes me > question whether they will stay tight enough to avoid fretting and > corrosion if they remain loose enough to move under vibration. Plus you > need a dedicated crimper for those. > > Have you tried a regular Faston terminal on your widget? The specs > indicate that they fit a typical 1/4" blade terminal. If you can slip a > standard Faston in the body of your widget, and you properly support the > wire leaving the widget, there's an unmeasurably small risk of one coming > off, regardless of the 'latch' feature. > > FWIW... > > Charlie > > On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 10:22 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > >> Folks, >> >> Does Digikey (or anyone) sell these terminals? http://www.aircraft >> spruce.com/catalog/elpages/aveotabterminals.php >> They are regular Faston terminals but have a little tab on the bottom to >> keep them from slipping out of a plastic housing. >> >> >> Thanks, >> -- Art Z. >> >> -- >> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >> >> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, >> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: New Antennae
From: "speedy11" <speedy11(at)aol.com>
Date: May 09, 2018
Excellent info. Thanks to everyone. Stan Sutterfield Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479989#479989 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 09, 2018
Subject: Re: New Antennae
Sebastien: So, how does my instructions differ from the manufactures? >From your re-post of there instructions their very first line states: "Th e electrical bonding of the antenna to the aircraft ground is highly important." Electrical Bonding! Of course the good physical bonding is done by the four (4) mounting screws . What you have to realize the Manufacture is ONLY interested in THEIR part and involvement and will tell you what is in their extreme in covering their ars! They don't care about your paint job! Also, many of the mounting bases come with a rubber gasket to keep moisture out. So, what happens to the BARE aluminum under the rubber gasket? Or better yet, what happens to the electrical bonding under the gasket? The answer is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Nothing electrical!!! Nothing since the electrical ground bonding happens at the screw holes. NOW! Let's talk a composite plane... There you have to make a Ground Plane. But, that is accomplished by a metal plate UNDER, which can be considered INSIDE the skin of the plane. SO! How does that differ from leaving the paint ON the plane, counter-boring the INSULATED screws holes on the antenna - Making the screws contact the skin by screwing snugly through the skin and finishing with a doubler, washers, star-washers and a locking nut? Oh, notice on the Manufacture's instructions they use a counter-sink washer? What is that washer made of? Steel. Why do they use the counter-sink washer? To cut into the paint/power coating. What happens when you mix Steel, Aluminum and Stainless Steel and Water? Corrosion. Add a little SOAP and/or SALT and you have Galvanic Action. What else happens when you have the SPACE between the Screw and the Antenna? You just created an access point for the elements. Take a look at older planes on the flightline. You will notice the BASE of the antennas; the paint/powder coating is peeling up? What do you think caused that? Read all above. Also, the Manufacture's last capitalized line reads: CLEAN METAL SURFACE FOR GOOD GROUND CONNECTION and is repeated again with RED underlining. It does NOT say the entire area under the antenna. Barry On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 12:54 PM, Sebastien wrote: > Barry, default text size setting should be normal, yours is set to large. > Normal is fine for most of us and for anyone that needs larger can do so at > their end. > > As for antenna grounding, I would stick with the manufacturer's > instructions. For example: > > From COMANT > > Aircraft Skin Surface and Mounting Preparation > The electrical bonding of the antenna to the aircraft ground is highly > important. If this is not done properly, antenna performance > characteristics may become distorted and nulls may appear in the antenna > radiation pattern. This, in turn, may cause erratic navigational readings > or signal drop out. The electrical bonding of the antennas to the aircraf t > skin is best accomplished by direct *metal-to metal contact of the > antenna base to the aircraft skin*. To accomplish this, *the aircraft > paint in the mounting area will need to be removed* and the surface > alodined to protect aluminum against corrosion. An alternate method for > providing electrical bonding is through the mounting screws, which attach > to a backing plate inside the aircraft skin. Remove any interior paint in > the area where the backing plate is placed to assure a good ground. Coat > this area with alodine to minimize corrosion. To test the electrical > bonding of the blade to the aircraft, a reading of .003 ohms between the > antenna base plate and ground should be achieved. > > From RAMI > > CLEAN METAL SURFACE FOR GOOD GROUND CONNECTION > > > =8B > > On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 8:00 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote: > >> I'm not sure who asked the question... >> >> You DO NOT remove paint from the exterior of the plane. >> You do need a GOOD electrical connection between the antenna and the >> plane to create a Ground Plane. >> I have found many antennas be painted or powder coated which >> reduces/elininates the electrical contact area. >> My trick is to make sure the Mounting Hole Area of the antenna makes a >> good electrical ground connection with the Screws. >> To do this I remove the paint INSIDE of the screw counter-sink. I do >> this with a 100 deg counter-sink tool. >> The next part of the trick to to make the through hole on the Plane a >> nice small tight fit so the screw has to be SCREWED into/through the ski n. >> As for the interior primer... It is a Paint primer or Chem-Film Primer? >> Paint - YES, it has to be removed ONLY in the area around screws. NOT >> the entire area. >> Chem-Film - NO, it does not have to be remove UNLESS it is VERY dark in >> color. Darker Chem-Film can be insulation. >> Not sure which level you have? REMOVE IT! Using Scotch Brite. Again, >> you only need the area around the screw for the diameter of the washer/l ock >> washer. >> You can do a simple check to the quality of your work by taking a >> resistance reading from the antenna to a remote part of the plane. ZERO >> OHMS is what you are looking for. >> After you are all done with the mounting and testing you can paint over >> the external screw heads sealing off moisture. >> As for the area around the external antenna mount... Do what the >> manufacture recommends - gasket and/or RTV. >> I like using RTV as a sealant even with a gasket. >> >> Barry >> >> >> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 12:42 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < >> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: >> >>> At 10:04 AM 5/8/2018, you wrote: >>> >>> I am installing two new antennae - one Comant 122 for comm and one >>> standard ball tipped 3 inch transponder=type for an Echo UAT. >>> I am retaining two older antennae - one comm and one transponder. The >>> real estate for mounting is limited since they are all mounted on the >>> fuselage underside of an RV-8. I should be able to come close to the >>> desired one meter separation between all antennae. >>> My question is - do I need to remove exterior paint and interior primer >>> paint at the mounting location of the new antennae? Or is the mounting >>> screw contact sufficient to connect with the ground plane? I will, of >>> course, have a doubler for mounting each antenna. >>> Thanks >>> Stan Sutterfield >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> https://goo.gl/skAS8R >>> >>> >>> Bob . . . >>> >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals
From: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 09, 2018
Yes the tin plated version works well in many nylon shells for relays and even older ND alternators. In the past I've purchased as few as 10 at a time from digi-key. Where feasible I prefer to toss the nylon shell and use PIDG connectors which I find easier to satisfactorily crimp. especially with the thin insulation on milspec wire. Ken On 09/05/2018 1:47 PM, Ken Ryan wrote: > I have seen these referred to as "relay terminals." I think they might > be categorized that way on Mouser. > > On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:35 AM, Charlie England > wrote: > > I've got (or had; not sure) a string of those in a junk box > somewhere that I bought when I was roughly college age & didn't > know better, about 45 years ago. I have no desire to locate them > again. :-) Similar products I found talk about 'low insertion > force', which is kinda bothersome; makes me question whether they > will stay tight enough to avoid fretting and corrosion if they > remain loose enough to move under vibration. Plus you need a > dedicated crimper for those. > > Have you tried a regular Faston terminal on your widget? The specs > indicate that they fit a typical 1/4" blade terminal. If you can > slip a standard Faston in the body of your widget, and you > properly support the wire leaving the widget, there's an > unmeasurably small risk of one coming off, regardless of the > 'latch' feature. > > FWIW... > > Charlie > > On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 10:22 PM, Art Zemon > wrote: > > Folks, > > Does Digikey (or anyone) sell these terminals? > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/aveotabterminals.php > <http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/aveotabterminals.php> > They are regular Faston terminals but have a little tab on the > bottom to keep them from slipping out of a plastic housing. > > > Thanks, > -- Art Z. > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for > myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: New Antennae
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: May 09, 2018
Barry has the technique correct. I don't know why Comant even recites the paint removal method. Removing aircraft exterior paint for grounding is just asking for corrosion. Read their alternate method included in your quote. Normally one fabricates a doubler plate to go on the inside of the skin. Nutplates are riveted to the doubler. You can scuff the inside skin for grounding, or you can just use 4-6 rivets to flush rivet the doubler to the aircraft skin. Either way, the ground path is through the screws and the doubler should make good ground contact to the screws and the airframe. That is the technique I used for both of the CI-122s I have on my RV, and get excellent reception and no complaints on transmit. Kelly A&P/IA On 5/9/2018 9:54 AM, Sebastien wrote: > Barry, default text size setting should be normal, yours is set to > large. Normal is fine for most of us and for anyone that needs larger > can do so at their end. > > As for antenna grounding, I would stick with the manufacturer's > instructions. For example: > > From COMANT > > An alternate > method for providing electrical bonding is through the mounting screws, > which attach to a backing plate inside the aircraft skin. Remove any > interior paint in the area where the backing plate is placed to assure a > good ground. Coat this area with alodine to minimize corrosion. To test > the electrical bonding of the blade to the aircraft, a reading of .003 > ohms between the antenna base plate and ground should be achieved. > > From RAMI > > CLEAN METAL SURFACE FOR GOOD GROUND CONNECTION > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 09, 2018
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Bus bar materials
> >That's good to know. I have a whole boatload of scrap aluminum. > >When you say "dope," do you mean dielectric >grease like this:=C2 >https://www.homedepot.com/p/CRC-3-3-oz-Technician-Grade-Diel ectric-Grease-05113/206843029 >? I checked the SDS on this stuff . . . it's a very close cousin to the Dow Corning product I mentioned. It would be fine. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 09, 2018
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Anybody using Shorai batteries/BMS?
What did you have charging this battery, Allan?=C2- What sort of environm ent did it live in?Like any other technology, these batteries have their be nefits and caveats.=C2- Without more information, it is as easy to say, " Allan didn't install it properly" as it is to say "Shorai sux!" Two thing that are on the short list of not to do with a lithium battery:1) Install in a high temp environment.2) Charge with a source that produces s pikes larger than 16V. On Tuesday, May 8, 2018 8:07 PM, Allan Aaron wrote: For what its worth, I had a Shorai, lasted 6 months of light duty use then started bulging and died.=C2- Since it failed more than 12 months after p urchase, the vendor would not replace it.=C2- I bought an EarthX and it h as been great. I wouldn't touch another Shorai.=C2- Allan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 09, 2018
Subject: Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals
Art: I have got to ask... Are you building your experimental to any specific specs? As an Experimental Builder, yes, you are allowed to experiment all different practices. But, I see no reason why all your wiring should not be the Best current practice. Those type connectors are very ancient and have all sorts of issues... Sharp Edges UN-INSULATED Grip Support of the wire insulation. No universal manufacturing procedures. Example Not Mil-Spec. Un-Acceptable Certified Design (FAA, AC 43.13) Yes, I know you are experimental. Why would you want to use something from the dark ages? Barry On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > Folks, > > Does Digikey (or anyone) sell these terminals? http://www. > aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/aveotabterminals.php > They are regular Faston terminals but have a little tab on the bottom to > keep them from slipping out of a plastic housing. > > > Thanks, > -- Art Z. > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what > am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 09, 2018
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Bus bar materials
At 09:34 AM 5/9/2018, you wrote: >Art: > >The term is Electrical DUCK Grease; it is just the opposite of >Dielectric Grease. We're talking different materials that serve two different purposes. There are useful materials to add to joints in rigid components common to high power technologies like submarines, sub-stations etc. These not only exclude moisture, they contain electrically conductive enhancements for crossing voids that cannot be closed with tension in the bolts. Then there are treatments intended to fill tiny gaps between mated surfaces to prevent ingress of water/oxygen that progressively degrades the joint. I have a tube of Dow Corning DC4 that has lasted about 40 years . . . it doesn't take much. It's used to thinly coat mating surfaces of DUCTILE terminals. Any DC4 caught in the squash on the two metals is simply extruded out. But the tiniest voids in the interface will remain completely filled with DC4. Other, non-reactive materials would work too. Axle grease is better than nothing. The CRC product cited is good. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 09, 2018
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: New Antennae
>Also, the Manufacture's last capitalized=C2 line >reads:=C2 CLEAN METAL SURFACE FOR GOOD GROUND CONNECTION >and is repeated again with RED underlining. >It does NOT say the entire area under the antenna. Which is what the 'bonding circles' around the screw holes are about along with maximizing compression of the various layers at each joint. These make up gas-tight interfaces that will repel oxygen/moisture. Again, another good place for a bit of DC-4 around the hole before bolting the antenna down. Our readers don't have bonding meters and have generally done well without them. I used to offer one and we did sell about a dozen . . . https://goo.gl/1X6S6b They're based on this article I did originally for Raytheon-Beech field techs. https://goo.gl/grXUex To be sure, tens of thousands of antennas have been installed with the gaskets . . . but if you're interested in MAINTAINING mate up forces in the mounting bolts, sticking any 'squishy' stuff in the gap tends to degrade those forces with age. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com>
Date: May 09, 2018
Subject: Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals
educate me.... why is uninsulated bad? What=99s the problem with the wrapover insulation support? On May 9, 2018, at 17:11, FLYaDIVE wrote: Art: I have got to ask... Are you building your experimental to any specific spe cs? As an Experimental Builder, yes, you are allowed to experiment all different practices. But, I see no reason why all your wiring should not be the Best current prac tice. Those type connectors are very ancient and have all sorts of issues... Sharp Edges UN-INSULATED Grip Support of the wire insulation. No universal manufacturing procedures. Example Not Mil-Spec. Un-Acceptable Certified Design (FAA, AC 43.13) Yes, I know you are experimen tal. Why would you want to use something from the dark ages? Barry > On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > Folks, > > Does Digikey (or anyone) sell these terminals? http://www.aircraftspruce.c om/catalog/elpages/aveotabterminals.php > They are regular Faston terminals but have a little tab on the bottom to k eep them from slipping out of a plastic housing. > > > Thanks, > -- Art Z. > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what a m I? And if not now, when?" Hillel ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 09, 2018
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals
These particular terminals are used in conjunction with some form of plastic housing that mates with other devices . . . like the skinny-wire connections on the back of an alternator. The purpose of the barb on the back is to retain the terminal in its housing. >[] > > These terminals do have both wire-grip and insulation support. On the downside, they are not plated hence prone to corrosion. If the terminals you're considering are made by AMP or similar source, they're probably a suitable alloy. Terminals of unknown pedigree may be thinner/softer which risks compromising the gas-tight interface with the mating tab. https://goo.gl/8hZ2ep These are, of course, applied with b-crimp tools as described. https://goo.gl/RJuZOf The AMP PIDG series of fast-on tabs have a stellar track record for fast-on interconnections. Further, they install with ratchet handled tooling. I'd sure stick with PIDG unless there's a compelling reason to do otherwise. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Allan Aaron <aaaron(at)tvp.com.au>
Subject: Anybody using Shorai batteries/BMS?
Date: May 09, 2018
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From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: May 09, 2018
Subject: Re: Bus bar materials
Bob, Thanks for the info. I will opt for the CRC from the local Home Depot instead of paying shipping for DC4. Cheers, -- Art Z. On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 4:27 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 09:34 AM 5/9/2018, you wrote: > > Art: > > The term is Electrical DUCK Grease; it is just the opposite of Dielectric > Grease. > > > We're talking different materials that serve > two different purposes. There are useful materials to > add to joints in rigid components common to high > power technologies like submarines, sub-stations > etc. These not only exclude moisture, they contain > electrically conductive enhancements for crossing > voids that cannot be closed with tension in the > bolts. > > Then there are treatments intended to fill tiny gaps > between mated surfaces to prevent ingress of water/oxygen > that progressively degrades the joint. I have a tube > of Dow Corning DC4 that has lasted about 40 years > . . . it doesn't take much. It's used to thinly coat > mating surfaces of DUCTILE terminals. Any DC4 caught > in the squash on the two metals is simply extruded out. > But the tiniest voids in the interface will remain > completely filled with DC4. Other, non-reactive > materials would work too. Axle grease is better > than nothing. The CRC product cited is good. > > > Bob . . . > -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: May 09, 2018
Subject: Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals
That's exactly it. I am using these terminals with AeroRocker switches. There is a plastic housing which holds all six (or eight) connectors, making installation behind a panel much easier. I tried to buy some at the local electronics emporium (Gateway Electronics) and the owner opined that he could sell a zillion of those if only he could find a supplier. I searched DigiKey and came up empty. After I send this email, I will resume my search. Cheers, -- Art Z. On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:23 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > These particular terminals are used in conjunction with > some form of plastic housing that mates with other > devices . . . like the skinny-wire connections on the > back of an alternator. The purpose of the barb on the > back is to retain the terminal in its housing. > > > [image: []] > > -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: May 09, 2018
Subject: Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals
Ahhh! Finally found them at Digi-Key: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/te-connectivity-amp-connectors/42282-1/A113676-ND/293293 Cheers, -- Art Z. On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 9:25 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > That's exactly it. I am using these terminals with AeroRocker switches. > There is a plastic housing which holds all six (or eight) connectors, > making installation behind a panel much easier. > > I tried to buy some at the local electronics emporium (Gateway > Electronics) and the owner opined that he could sell a zillion of those if > only he could find a supplier. I searched DigiKey and came up empty. After > I send this email, I will resume my search. > > Cheers, > -- Art Z. > > On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:23 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > >> These particular terminals are used in conjunction with >> some form of plastic housing that mates with other >> devices . . . like the skinny-wire connections on the >> back of an alternator. The purpose of the barb on the >> back is to retain the terminal in its housing. >> >> >> [image: []] >> >> > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what > am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* > -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 10, 2018
Subject: Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals
I found them on Mouser but I think you have to buy a roll of 10,000. Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve. On Wed, May 9, 2018, 18:31 Art Zemon wrote: > That's exactly it. I am using these terminals with AeroRocker switches. > There is a plastic housing which holds all six (or eight) connectors, > making installation behind a panel much easier. > > I tried to buy some at the local electronics emporium (Gateway > Electronics) and the owner opined that he could sell a zillion of those if > only he could find a supplier. I searched DigiKey and came up empty. After > I send this email, I will resume my search. > > Cheers, > -- Art Z. > > On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:23 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > >> These particular terminals are used in conjunction with >> some form of plastic housing that mates with other >> devices . . . like the skinny-wire connections on the >> back of an alternator. The purpose of the barb on the >> back is to retain the terminal in its housing. >> >> >> [image: []] >> >> > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what > am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Firewall Power Lug
From: "kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Date: May 09, 2018
Hi I am looking for a firewall power lug similar to this: https://www.amazon.com/Battery-Firewall-Feed-Thru-Terminal-Connector/dp/B0038O2CIS What I would like though is something that is also fireproof or at least fire resistance. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Cheers Les Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480013#480013 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: May 10, 2018
Subject: Re: Firewall Power Lug
Why not just run your cable through a grommet in the firewall? -- Art Z. Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos. On Wed, May 9, 2018, 10:02 PM kearney wrote: > > Hi > > I am looking for a firewall power lug similar to this: > > > https://www.amazon.com/Battery-Firewall-Feed-Thru-Terminal-Connector/dp/B0038O2CIS > > What I would like though is something that is also fireproof or at least > fire resistance. > > Can anyone point me in the right direction? > > Cheers > > Les > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
Date: May 10, 2018
Subject: Re: TyWraps redux
FWF I used a lot of flat lace along with some adel clamps and I'm really happy with the way it turned out. I have some pictures here: http://www.rv8.ch/fwf-wiring-photos/ I also did some testing with a good heat gun on the lace to make sure that I understood how it would behave if it got really hot - I was impressed. It basically didn't seem to care, and I could not get it to melt or change state in any way with the heat gun that will cause Tefzel wiring to finally melt and smoke. In parallel, I bought some Nomex lace, which also does not care about getting cooked by a heat gun, and will probably add this next to the normal lace in places that might be exposed to additional heat from the exhaust pipes. Will give some feedback in a few years when I'm finally flying. :) Not sure why, but working with the lace was very satisfying. Mickey Coggins On Wed, 9 May 2018 at 18:14, FLYaDIVE wrote: > Good point Bob... > > In general BLACK Ty-Wraps are UV and Ozone proof. The white ones become > brittle with time and exposure. > SOME - not all colored Ty-Wraps may also work. > > One might even find notes on the Ty-Wrap packaging as to UV & Ozone > resistant. > > Barry > > On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 4:32 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > >> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> >> >> >> >> In a recent thread, TyWraps were discussed as a solution >> for wire bundle management. We had some discussions on >> these products about ten years back . . . >> >> In years since, I've had occasion to throw out stocks >> of unused TyWraps given that they had become brittle with >> age . . . the buckles would snap off in the ordinary process >> of applying the wrap. >> >> Be aware that not all that is plastic is Nylon 6,6. Evolved >> over the last 80+ years by DuPont. This material and its >> close cousins have found their way into all manner of component, >> many of which perform in under-hood environment of automobiles. >> >> When purchasing these critters, look for a 6-6, 6/6, 66 or even >> a 6,6 description of the nylon. The last time I was in Harbor >> Freight, many of their offerings bore such markings . . . but >> some did not . . . especially the smaller ones in assorted colors. >> >> All the wraps I pitched a few years ago were smaller sizes >> in various colors. Some had been in my Dad's inventory for untold >> years and were literally falling apart. >> >> My favorite bundle security uses Dacron flat lace applied >> like so . . . >> >> https://goo.gl/H3z1EQ >> >> Did a job for a rancher friend yesterday where the wiring was >> installed and initially held in place with some TyWraps he had >> laying around . . . after it was up and running, I dug out the >> roll of flat lace and installed a wrap adjacent to each of the >> TyWraps. Those plastic thingies MIGHT fall off in a few years >> but I'm betting the string will still be on duty. >> >> >> Bob . . . >> =================================== >> - >> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> =================================== >> FORUMS - >> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> =================================== >> WIKI - >> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >> =================================== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> =================================== >> >> >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Firewall Power Lug
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 10, 2018
Not only is flammability a concern for the Amazon feed-through terminal, but it also appears that the plastic gets compressed as the bolt is tightened. Many plastics will flow over time, thus allowing the electrical connection to loosen. Might be OK if tightened at each annual. Some switches also fail that have plastic being compressed by current-conducting rivets. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480022#480022 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Firewall Power Lug
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 10, 2018
On 5/9/2018 9:49 PM, kearney wrote: > > Hi > > I am looking for a firewall power lug similar to this: > > https://www.amazon.com/Battery-Firewall-Feed-Thru-Terminal-Connector/dp/B0038O2CIS > > What I would like though is something that is also fireproof or at least fire resistance. > > Can anyone point me in the right direction? > > Cheers > > Les > Search for 'ceramic insulating washer', 'ceramic shoulder washer', 'alumina washer', etc. You can roll your own pass through with a brass bolt & nut, a male ceramic shoulder washer, and a ceramic flat washer. Here are examples of what you need. *Not* the exact sizes (you'll need to decide that); just examples of what they look like. https://www.ebay.com/itm/8mm-10mm-14mm-20mm-OD-High-Temperature-Resistant-Male-Ceramic-Insulate-Washer-/232695504756?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10&var=532197640760 https://www.ebay.com/itm/15mm-OD-6mm-High-Round-Ceramic-Insulated-Washer-Fender-50-Pieces-Q5N9-/253489306817?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10 Charlie --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 10, 2018
Subject: Re: Firewall Power Lug
Charlie: One thing I totally agree with Bob N. on is: Reduction of Failure Points. Yes, using this type of feed-through would LQQK nice but you have created three (3) failure points: One at each end of the feed-through and the freed-through mounting itself. Oh, wait, there are two (2) more potential failure points; The lugs that go to each end of the wires. Why not a un-broken run of cable and a better type of feed-through? I would look for a nice LQQKing feed-through fitting - Water Tight Fitting. Something like this: https://www.grainger.com/product/2HYA5?cm_mmc=PPC:+Google+PLA&s_kwcid=AL!2966!3!166591489617!!!g!81031653477!&ef_id=WuocMQAABn_Z5xGW:20180510175458:s They also come in S/S. Barry On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 10:40 AM, Charlie England wrote: > ceengland7(at)gmail.com> > > On 5/9/2018 9:49 PM, kearney wrote: > >> >> Hi >> >> I am looking for a firewall power lug similar to this: >> >> https://www.amazon.com/Battery-Firewall-Feed-Thru-Terminal- >> Connector/dp/B0038O2CIS >> >> What I would like though is something that is also fireproof or at least >> fire resistance. >> >> Can anyone point me in the right direction? >> >> Cheers >> >> Les >> >> Search for 'ceramic insulating washer', 'ceramic shoulder washer', > 'alumina washer', etc. > > You can roll your own pass through with a brass bolt & nut, a male ceramic > shoulder washer, and a ceramic flat washer. Here are examples of what you > need. *Not* the exact sizes (you'll need to decide that); just examples of > what they look like. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/8mm-10mm-14mm-20mm-OD-High-Temperat > ure-Resistant-Male-Ceramic-Insulate-Washer-/232695504756? > _trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10&var=532197640760 > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/15mm-OD-6mm-High-Round-Ceramic-Insu > lated-Washer-Fender-50-Pieces-Q5N9-/253489306817?_trksid > p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10 > > Charlie > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 10, 2018
Subject: Re: TyWraps redux
Nice LQQKing job OM. Would like to see more. Barry On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 2:14 AM, Mickey Coggins wrote: > FWF I used a lot of flat lace along with some adel clamps and I'm really > happy with the way it turned out. I have some pictures here: > > http://www.rv8.ch/fwf-wiring-photos/ > > I also did some testing with a good heat gun on the lace to make sure that > I understood how it would behave if it got really hot - I was impressed. > It basically didn't seem to care, and I could not get it to melt or change > state in any way with the heat gun that will cause Tefzel wiring to finally > melt and smoke. > > In parallel, I bought some Nomex lace, which also does not care about > getting cooked by a heat gun, and will probably add this next to the normal > lace in places that might be exposed to additional heat from the exhaust > pipes. Will give some feedback in a few years when I'm finally flying. :) > > Not sure why, but working with the lace was very satisfying. > > Mickey Coggins > > > On Wed, 9 May 2018 at 18:14, FLYaDIVE wrote: > >> Good point Bob... >> >> In general BLACK Ty-Wraps are UV and Ozone proof. The white ones become >> brittle with time and exposure. >> SOME - not all colored Ty-Wraps may also work. >> >> One might even find notes on the Ty-Wrap packaging as to UV & Ozone >> resistant. >> >> Barry >> >> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 4:32 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < >> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: >> >>> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> >>> >>> >>> >>> In a recent thread, TyWraps were discussed as a solution >>> for wire bundle management. We had some discussions on >>> these products about ten years back . . . >>> >>> In years since, I've had occasion to throw out stocks >>> of unused TyWraps given that they had become brittle with >>> age . . . the buckles would snap off in the ordinary process >>> of applying the wrap. >>> >>> Be aware that not all that is plastic is Nylon 6,6. Evolved >>> over the last 80+ years by DuPont. This material and its >>> close cousins have found their way into all manner of component, >>> many of which perform in under-hood environment of automobiles. >>> >>> When purchasing these critters, look for a 6-6, 6/6, 66 or even >>> a 6,6 description of the nylon. The last time I was in Harbor >>> Freight, many of their offerings bore such markings . . . but >>> some did not . . . especially the smaller ones in assorted colors. >>> >>> All the wraps I pitched a few years ago were smaller sizes >>> in various colors. Some had been in my Dad's inventory for untold >>> years and were literally falling apart. >>> >>> My favorite bundle security uses Dacron flat lace applied >>> like so . . . >>> >>> https://goo.gl/H3z1EQ >>> >>> Did a job for a rancher friend yesterday where the wiring was >>> installed and initially held in place with some TyWraps he had >>> laying around . . . after it was up and running, I dug out the >>> roll of flat lace and installed a wrap adjacent to each of the >>> TyWraps. Those plastic thingies MIGHT fall off in a few years >>> but I'm betting the string will still be on duty. >>> >>> >>> Bob . . . >>> ========== >>> - >>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www. >>> matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >>> ========== >>> FORUMS - >>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >>> ========== >>> WIKI - >>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >>> ========== >>> b Site - >>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> ========== >>> >>> >>> >>> >> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Firewall Power Lug
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 10, 2018
I use the flanged stainless tube feed-through, with fire caulk & firesleeve, detailed in the 'Connection and elsewhere. Since he asked specifically for a bulkhead feed-through for a 'fat' power wire, I assumed he had made his choice of method and I was trying to give him an idea that would work and be fire resistant. Your option has the same vulnerabilities to heat as the original linked article. Charlie On 5/10/2018 12:57 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: > Charlie: > > One thing I totally agree with Bob N. on is: Reduction of Failure Points. > Yes, using this type of feed-through would LQQK nice but you have > created three (3) failure points: One at each end of the feed-through > and the freed-through mounting itself. Oh, wait, there are two (2) > more potential failure points; The lugs that go to each end of the wires. > Why not a un-broken run of cable and a better type of feed-through? > > I would look for a nice LQQKing feed-through fitting - Water Tight > Fitting. > Something like this: > https://www.grainger.com/product/2HYA5?cm_mmc=PPC:+Google+PLA&s_kwcid=AL!2966!3!166591489617!!!g!81031653477!&ef_id=WuocMQAABn_Z5xGW:20180510175458:s > > > They also come in S/S. > > Barry > > > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 10:40 AM, Charlie England > > wrote: > > > > > On 5/9/2018 9:49 PM, kearney wrote: > > > > > Hi > > I am looking for a firewall power lug similar to this: > > https://www.amazon.com/Battery-Firewall-Feed-Thru-Terminal-Connector/dp/B0038O2CIS > > > What I would like though is something that is also fireproof > or at least fire resistance. > > Can anyone point me in the right direction? > > Cheers > > Les > > Search for 'ceramic insulating washer', 'ceramic shoulder washer', > 'alumina washer', etc. > > You can roll your own pass through with a brass bolt & nut, a male > ceramic shoulder washer, and a ceramic flat washer. Here are > examples of what you need. *Not* the exact sizes (you'll need to > decide that); just examples of what they look like. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/8mm-10mm-14mm-20mm-OD-High-Temperature-Resistant-Male-Ceramic-Insulate-Washer-/232695504756?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10&var=532197640760 > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/15mm-OD-6mm-High-Round-Ceramic-Insulated-Washer-Fender-50-Pieces-Q5N9-/253489306817?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10 > > > Charlie > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 10, 2018
Subject: Re: TyWraps redux
Nice one! Prolly put some of those certified boys to shame! On Thu, 10 May 2018, 8:21 AM Mickey Coggins wrote: > FWF I used a lot of flat lace along with some adel clamps and I'm really > happy with the way it turned out. I have some pictures here: > > http://www.rv8.ch/fwf-wiring-photos/ > > I also did some testing with a good heat gun on the lace to make sure that > I understood how it would behave if it got really hot - I was impressed. > It basically didn't seem to care, and I could not get it to melt or change > state in any way with the heat gun that will cause Tefzel wiring to finally > melt and smoke. > > In parallel, I bought some Nomex lace, which also does not care about > getting cooked by a heat gun, and will probably add this next to the normal > lace in places that might be exposed to additional heat from the exhaust > pipes. Will give some feedback in a few years when I'm finally flying. :) > > Not sure why, but working with the lace was very satisfying. > > Mickey Coggins > > > On Wed, 9 May 2018 at 18:14, FLYaDIVE wrote: > >> Good point Bob... >> >> In general BLACK Ty-Wraps are UV and Ozone proof. The white ones become >> brittle with time and exposure. >> SOME - not all colored Ty-Wraps may also work. >> >> One might even find notes on the Ty-Wrap packaging as to UV & Ozone >> resistant. >> >> Barry >> >> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 4:32 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < >> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: >> >>> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> >>> >>> >>> >>> In a recent thread, TyWraps were discussed as a solution >>> for wire bundle management. We had some discussions on >>> these products about ten years back . . . >>> >>> In years since, I've had occasion to throw out stocks >>> of unused TyWraps given that they had become brittle with >>> age . . . the buckles would snap off in the ordinary process >>> of applying the wrap. >>> >>> Be aware that not all that is plastic is Nylon 6,6. Evolved >>> over the last 80+ years by DuPont. This material and its >>> close cousins have found their way into all manner of component, >>> many of which perform in under-hood environment of automobiles. >>> >>> When purchasing these critters, look for a 6-6, 6/6, 66 or even >>> a 6,6 description of the nylon. The last time I was in Harbor >>> Freight, many of their offerings bore such markings . . . but >>> some did not . . . especially the smaller ones in assorted colors. >>> >>> All the wraps I pitched a few years ago were smaller sizes >>> in various colors. Some had been in my Dad's inventory for untold >>> years and were literally falling apart. >>> >>> My favorite bundle security uses Dacron flat lace applied >>> like so . . . >>> >>> https://goo.gl/H3z1EQ >>> >>> Did a job for a rancher friend yesterday where the wiring was >>> installed and initially held in place with some TyWraps he had >>> laying around . . . after it was up and running, I dug out the >>> roll of flat lace and installed a wrap adjacent to each of the >>> TyWraps. Those plastic thingies MIGHT fall off in a few years >>> but I'm betting the string will still be on duty. >>> >>> >>> Bob . . . >>> ========== >>> - >>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"> >>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >>> ========== >>> FORUMS - >>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >>> ========== >>> WIKI - >>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >>> ========== >>> b Site - >>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> ========== >>> >>> >>> >>> >> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 10, 2018
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Firewall Power Lug
At 01:17 PM 5/10/2018, you wrote: >I use the flanged stainless tube feed-through, with fire caulk & >firesleeve, detailed in the 'Connection and elsewhere. Here's a comic book I published a years back illustrating the methodology used on Bonanza and Baron aircraft at Beech. https://goo.gl/9vLwXF As far as I know, they still do it this way. A good friend and colleague of many years at Beech was a guy named Jack Thurman. He was dungeon and rack master at "Thurman's House of Horrors". The well worn admonition concerning new ideas for bolting things to Beech products was, "If Jack can't tear it up, it's good to go on a Beechcraft." One of Jack's more impressive toys was a propane fired burner (suitable for burning really BIG weeds) that would bathe a firewall mock-up with 2000 DegF flames. It's a certainty that Master of Mayhem Thurman sprinkled holy water on the techniques described above. At one time, members here on the list were fabricating welded, stainless elbows with flanges from the ends of COTS grab bars. Cutting the ends of of something like this would get you two elbows: https://goo.gl/6Q4jkC Unfortunately, these are pretty 'oversized' for our tasks . . . and stick up off the firewall quite a bit. One could consider fabricating from pre-bent elbows, a flange washer cut from stainless sheet and a short nipple of stainless tube. If you've got access to a talented TIG driver, you could probably come up with some pretty nice parts sized to the task. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 10, 2018
Subject: Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals
Alec: In building or repairs it is always (in dreamland) the best case condition to cover the terminals as much as possible. Well, that is what we strive for. You might have seen rubber/silicone boots over such things as: Connection terminals on relays. Terminals on Alternators and even Terminals on Mags. Leaving terminals exposed opens up the high possibility of neighboring terminals to contact each other, or having something like a screwdriver or hardware drop on the terminal lug. When talking about the Why-Not of the metal rollover tabs. They Cut Into the insulation of the wire. This is a weak point and a breaking point of the wire MOUNT. It is best NOT to consider this rollover tab a securing point of the lug and consider it just a sloppy part of the electrical crimp. Consider why they are NOT used in certified aircraft. I hate to say this on a mainly Experimental Email Site but... Not ALL Certified Aircraft procedures are bad, or just done to satisfy the FAA, or are expensive just to line someones pocketbook. There was just a long thread on this email site that discussed Insulated Crimp Connectors. The insulated part of the lug Supports the insulated part of the wire. It gives it a secure holding point that DOES NOT cut into wire. Something else to view (look at Mil Spec Lugs) and consider: Lugs that are NOT insulated do NOT support the wire insulation. Over the decades I have worked in electronics I have see this type of lug you are considering fail as the rollover part cuts into the wire insulation. Mater of fact: The design of this type of rollover has changed. BUT! Has not gone away! Let the Ground Bound Clowns (Chinese Junk) that are penny pinching use them. You are a Pilot and a Builder, your plane and you are worth it. Barry On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Alec Myers wrote: > educate me.... > > why is uninsulated bad? > What=99s the problem with the wrapover insulation support? > > On May 9, 2018, at 17:11, FLYaDIVE wrote: > > Art: > > I have got to ask... Are you building your experimental to any specific > specs? > As an Experimental Builder, yes, you are allowed to experiment all > different practices. > But, I see no reason why all your wiring should not be the Best current > practice. > Those type connectors are very ancient and have all sorts of issues... > Sharp Edges > UN-INSULATED > Grip Support of the wire insulation. > No universal manufacturing procedures. Example Not Mil-Spec. > Un-Acceptable Certified Design (FAA, AC 43.13) Yes, I know you are > experimental. > Why would you want to use something from the dark ages? > > Barry > > > On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > >> Folks, >> >> Does Digikey (or anyone) sell these terminals? http://www.aircraft >> spruce.com/catalog/elpages/aveotabterminals.php >> They are regular Faston terminals but have a little tab on the bottom to >> keep them from slipping out of a plastic housing. >> >> >> Thanks, >> -- Art Z. >> >> -- >> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >> >> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, >> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com>
Date: May 10, 2018
Subject: Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals
My interest in this stems more from discerning myth from measureable fact th an trying to pick something suitable for aircraft, but I=99m afraid I d on=99t believe any industrial manufacturer would use them for anything at all, if they=99re even half as bad as you say. A penny saved on a t ermination is a false economy if it decreases product reliability, and yet h ere they are, in use in white goods the world over. Perhaps there=99s an issue with reliable hand tool application? On May 10, 2018, at 18:08, FLYaDIVE wrote: Alec: In building or repairs it is always (in dreamland) the best case condition t o cover the terminals as much as possible. Well, that is what we strive for. You might have seen rubber/silicone boots over such things as: Connection terminals on relays. Terminals on Alternators and even Terminals on Mags. Leaving terminals exposed opens up the high possibility of neighboring termi nals to contact each other, or having something like a screwdriver or hardwa re drop on the terminal lug. When talking about the Why-Not of the metal rollover tabs. They Cut Into th e insulation of the wire. This is a weak point and a breaking point of the w ire MOUNT. It is best NOT to consider this rollover tab a securing point o f the lug and consider it just a sloppy part of the electrical crimp. Consi der why they are NOT used in certified aircraft. I hate to say this on a ma inly Experimental Email Site but... Not ALL Certified Aircraft procedures a re bad, or just done to satisfy the FAA, or are expensive just to line someo nes pocketbook. There was just a long thread on this email site that discussed Insulated Cri mp Connectors. The insulated part of the lug Supports the insulated part of the wire. It gives it a secure holding point that DOES NOT cut into wire. Something else to view (look at Mil Spec Lugs) and consider: Lugs that are N OT insulated do NOT support the wire insulation. Over the decades I have worked in electronics I have see this type of lug yo u are considering fail as the rollover part cuts into the wire insulation. M ater of fact: The design of this type of rollover has changed. BUT! Has n ot gone away! Let the Ground Bound Clowns (Chinese Junk) that are penny pinching use them. You are a Pilot and a Builder, your plane and you are worth it. Barry > On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Alec Myers wrote: > educate me.... > > why is uninsulated bad? > What=99s the problem with the wrapover insulation support? > > On May 9, 2018, at 17:11, FLYaDIVE wrote: > > Art: > > I have got to ask... Are you building your experimental to any specific s pecs? > As an Experimental Builder, yes, you are allowed to experiment all differe nt practices. > But, I see no reason why all your wiring should not be the Best current pr actice. > Those type connectors are very ancient and have all sorts of issues... > Sharp Edges > UN-INSULATED > Grip Support of the wire insulation. > No universal manufacturing procedures. Example Not Mil-Spec. > Un-Acceptable Certified Design (FAA, AC 43.13) Yes, I know you are experim ental. > Why would you want to use something from the dark ages? > > Barry > > > >> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Art Zemon wrote: >> Folks, >> >> Does Digikey (or anyone) sell these terminals? http://www.aircraftspruce. com/catalog/elpages/aveotabterminals.php >> They are regular Faston terminals but have a little tab on the bottom to k eep them from slipping out of a plastic housing. >> >> >> Thanks, >> -- Art Z. >> >> -- >> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >> >> "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Firewall Power Lug
From: "kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Date: May 10, 2018
Hi Thank you everyone for the replies. My application is only for a power stud so my preference is for something similar to what I originally posted. I am sensitive to using plastics which is why I posted the query. I have heard that some commercial aircraft use studs of the type I am looking for. I just don't want the $$$ cost of "brand name aircraft parts". Cheers Les Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480043#480043 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 10, 2018
Subject: Re: Firewall Power Lug
Yes, Kearney; Piper uses studs on their battery cables and battery box. I curse them ALL the time! You could always make your own with Phenolic Board and Brass Bolts. You could also use a few nuts & bolts to hold the phenolic board in-place on the firewall and use the brass bolt & nuts to pass the power through. It would be a much better structure than anything you could buy. And cost you very little. And structurally, extreamly sound and water tight. It can be either single board or double board (both sides of the firewall). Barry On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 7:25 PM, kearney wrote: > > Hi > > Thank you everyone for the replies. My application is only for a power > stud so my preference is for something similar to what I originally posted. > > I am sensitive to using plastics which is why I posted the query. I have > heard that some commercial aircraft use studs of the type I am looking for. > I just don't want the $$$ cost of "brand name aircraft parts". > > Cheers > > Les > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480043#480043 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 10, 2018
Subject: Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals
Alec: They are at least twice as bad as I describe. If they were so Manufacturerlly acceptable why are they not being used or recommended by ALL the aviation manufactures and experimental aircraft suppliers such as RV? As for: " A penny saved on a termination is a false economy...", PENNY HELL! The manufactures argue tenths of a cent (1 mill)! Your statement of HAND TOOL is spot ON! Look at the many ways those lugs can be used and how many of those ways will NOT produce a proper crimp. Look at the cost of a Mil-Spec Hand Tool to do the job. There is NO money saved there. If as you say are interested in: "...trying to pick something suitable for aircraft..." why not go with what is an industry standard - A Proven Industry (Aviation) Standard? YES, I know in the Experimental Aviation world you do not have to follow a majority of the FAA requirements and you SHOULD and have the right to do better. But what are you comparing your experimental idea too? Hey! Just had an idea... If you want to prove your thought process and prove me wrong. Make a simple vibration test bench and shake the S#!+ out of the the lug you picked and the ones the aviation industry use. Barry On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 6:44 PM, Alec Myers wrote: > My interest in this stems more from discerning myth from measureable fact > than trying to pick something suitable for aircraft, but I=99m afra id I don=99t > believe any industrial manufacturer would use them for anything at all, i f > they=99re even half as bad as you say. A penny saved on a terminati on is a > false economy if it decreases product reliability, and yet here they are, > in use in white goods the world over. > > Perhaps there=99s an issue with reliable hand tool application? > > > On May 10, 2018, at 18:08, FLYaDIVE wrote: > > Alec: > > In building or repairs it is always (in dreamland) the best case conditio n > to cover the terminals as much as possible. Well, that is what we strive > for. You might have seen rubber/silicone boots over such things as: > Connection terminals on relays. > Terminals on Alternators and even > Terminals on Mags. > Leaving terminals exposed opens up the high possibility of neighboring > terminals to contact each other, or having something like a screwdriver o r > hardware drop on the terminal lug. > When talking about the Why-Not of the metal rollover tabs. They Cut Into > the insulation of the wire. This is a weak point and a breaking point of > the wire MOUNT. It is best NOT to consider this rollover tab a securing > point of the lug and consider it just a sloppy part of the electrical > crimp. Consider why they are NOT used in certified aircraft. I hate to > say this on a mainly Experimental Email Site but... Not ALL Certified > Aircraft procedures are bad, or just done to satisfy the FAA, or are > expensive just to line someones pocketbook. > There was just a long thread on this email site that discussed Insulated > Crimp Connectors. The insulated part of the lug Supports the insulated > part of the wire. It gives it a secure holding point that DOES NOT cut > into wire. > Something else to view (look at Mil Spec Lugs) and consider: Lugs that ar e > NOT insulated do NOT support the wire insulation. > Over the decades I have worked in electronics I have see this type of lug > you are considering fail as the rollover part cuts into the wire > insulation. Mater of fact: The design of this type of rollover has > changed. BUT! Has not gone away! > Let the Ground Bound Clowns (Chinese Junk) that are penny pinching use > them. You are a Pilot and a Builder, your plane and you are worth it. > > Barry > > On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Alec Myers wrote: > >> educate me.... >> >> why is uninsulated bad? >> What=99s the problem with the wrapover insulation support? >> >> On May 9, 2018, at 17:11, FLYaDIVE wrote: >> >> Art: >> >> I have got to ask... Are you building your experimental to any specific >> specs? >> As an Experimental Builder, yes, you are allowed to experiment all >> different practices. >> But, I see no reason why all your wiring should not be the Best current >> practice. >> Those type connectors are very ancient and have all sorts of issues... >> Sharp Edges >> UN-INSULATED >> Grip Support of the wire insulation. >> No universal manufacturing procedures. Example Not Mil-Spec. >> Un-Acceptable Certified Design (FAA, AC 43.13) Yes, I know you are >> experimental. >> Why would you want to use something from the dark ages? >> >> Barry >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Art Zemon wrote: >> >>> Folks, >>> >>> Does Digikey (or anyone) sell these terminals? http://www.aircraft >>> spruce.com/catalog/elpages/aveotabterminals.php >>> They are regular Faston terminals but have a little tab on the bottom t o >>> keep them from slipping out of a plastic housing. >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> -- Art Z. >>> >>> -- >>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >>> >>> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, >>> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* >>> >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com>
Date: May 10, 2018
Subject: Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals
On May 10, 2018, at 21:57, FLYaDIVE wrote: Alec: They are at least twice as bad as I describe. If they were so Manufacturerl ly acceptable why are they not being used or recommended by ALL the aviation manufactures and experimental aircraft suppliers such as RV? As for: " A penny saved on a termination is a false economy...", PENNY HELL ! The manufactures argue tenths of a cent (1 mill)! Your statement of HAND TOOL is spot ON! Look at the many ways those lugs ca n be used and how many of those ways will NOT produce a proper crimp. Look a t the cost of a Mil-Spec Hand Tool to do the job. There is NO money saved t here. If as you say are interested in: "...trying to pick something suitable for a ircraft..." why not go with what is an industry standard - A Proven Industry (Aviation) Standard? YES, I know in the Experimental Aviation world you d o not have to follow a majority of the FAA requirements and you SHOULD and h ave the right to do better. But what are you comparing your experimental id ea too? Hey! Just had an idea... If you want to prove your thought process and pro ve me wrong. Make a simple vibration test bench and shake the S#!+ out of t he the lug you picked and the ones the aviation industry use. Barry > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 6:44 PM, Alec Myers wrote: > My interest in this stems more from discerning myth from measureable fact t han trying to pick something suitable for aircraft, but I=99m afraid I don=99t believe any industrial manufacturer would use them for anythi ng at all, if they=99re even half as bad as you say. A penny saved on a termination is a false economy if it decreases product reliability, and yet here they are, in use in white goods the world over. > > Perhaps there=99s an issue with reliable hand tool application? > > > On May 10, 2018, at 18:08, FLYaDIVE wrote: > > Alec: > > In building or repairs it is always (in dreamland) the best case condition to cover the terminals as much as possible. Well, that is what we strive fo r. You might have seen rubber/silicone boots over such things as: > Connection terminals on relays. > Terminals on Alternators and even > Terminals on Mags. > Leaving terminals exposed opens up the high possibility of neighboring ter minals to contact each other, or having something like a screwdriver or hard ware drop on the terminal lug. > When talking about the Why-Not of the metal rollover tabs. They Cut Into t he insulation of the wire. This is a weak point and a breaking point of the wire MOUNT. It is best NOT to consider this rollover tab a securing point of the lug and consider it just a sloppy part of the electrical crimp. Con sider why they are NOT used in certified aircraft. I hate to say this on a m ainly Experimental Email Site but... Not ALL Certified Aircraft procedures a re bad, or just done to satisfy the FAA, or are expensive just to line someo nes pocketbook. > There was just a long thread on this email site that discussed Insulated C rimp Connectors. The insulated part of the lug Supports the insulated part o f the wire. It gives it a secure holding point that DOES NOT cut into wire. > Something else to view (look at Mil Spec Lugs) and consider: Lugs that are NOT insulated do NOT support the wire insulation. > Over the decades I have worked in electronics I have see this type of lug y ou are considering fail as the rollover part cuts into the wire insulation. Mater of fact: The design of this type of rollover has changed. BUT! Has not gone away! > Let the Ground Bound Clowns (Chinese Junk) that are penny pinching use the m. You are a Pilot and a Builder, your plane and you are worth it. > > Barry > >> On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Alec Myers wrote: >> educate me.... >> >> why is uninsulated bad? >> What=99s the problem with the wrapover insulation support? >> >> On May 9, 2018, at 17:11, FLYaDIVE wrote: >> >> Art: >> >> I have got to ask... Are you building your experimental to any specific s pecs? >> As an Experimental Builder, yes, you are allowed to experiment all differ ent practices. >> But, I see no reason why all your wiring should not be the Best current p ractice. >> Those type connectors are very ancient and have all sorts of issues... >> Sharp Edges >> UN-INSULATED >> Grip Support of the wire insulation. >> No universal manufacturing procedures. Example Not Mil-Spec. >> Un-Acceptable Certified Design (FAA, AC 43.13) Yes, I know you are experi mental. >> Why would you want to use something from the dark ages? >> >> Barry >> >> >> >>> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Art Zemon wrote: >>> Folks, >>> >>> Does Digikey (or anyone) sell these terminals? http://www.aircraftspruce .com/catalog/elpages/aveotabterminals.php >>> They are regular Faston terminals but have a little tab on the bottom to keep them from slipping out of a plastic housing. >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> -- Art Z. >>> >>> -- >>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >>> >>> "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, wha t am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com>
Date: May 10, 2018
Subject: Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals
Barry I=99d be as happy to prove you right, as wrong. I might think about ho w to build a vibration test, somehow :) On May 10, 2018, at 21:57, FLYaDIVE wrote: Alec: They are at least twice as bad as I describe. If they were so Manufacturerl ly acceptable why are they not being used or recommended by ALL the aviation manufactures and experimental aircraft suppliers such as RV? As for: " A penny saved on a termination is a false economy...", PENNY HELL ! The manufactures argue tenths of a cent (1 mill)! Your statement of HAND TOOL is spot ON! Look at the many ways those lugs ca n be used and how many of those ways will NOT produce a proper crimp. Look a t the cost of a Mil-Spec Hand Tool to do the job. There is NO money saved t here. If as you say are interested in: "...trying to pick something suitable for a ircraft..." why not go with what is an industry standard - A Proven Industry (Aviation) Standard? YES, I know in the Experimental Aviation world you d o not have to follow a majority of the FAA requirements and you SHOULD and h ave the right to do better. But what are you comparing your experimental id ea too? Hey! Just had an idea... If you want to prove your thought process and pro ve me wrong. Make a simple vibration test bench and shake the S#!+ out of t he the lug you picked and the ones the aviation industry use. Barry > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 6:44 PM, Alec Myers wrote: > My interest in this stems more from discerning myth from measureable fact t han trying to pick something suitable for aircraft, but I=99m afraid I don=99t believe any industrial manufacturer would use them for anythi ng at all, if they=99re even half as bad as you say. A penny saved on a termination is a false economy if it decreases product reliability, and yet here they are, in use in white goods the world over. > > Perhaps there=99s an issue with reliable hand tool application? > > > On May 10, 2018, at 18:08, FLYaDIVE wrote: > > Alec: > > In building or repairs it is always (in dreamland) the best case condition to cover the terminals as much as possible. Well, that is what we strive fo r. You might have seen rubber/silicone boots over such things as: > Connection terminals on relays. > Terminals on Alternators and even > Terminals on Mags. > Leaving terminals exposed opens up the high possibility of neighboring ter minals to contact each other, or having something like a screwdriver or hard ware drop on the terminal lug. > When talking about the Why-Not of the metal rollover tabs. They Cut Into t he insulation of the wire. This is a weak point and a breaking point of the wire MOUNT. It is best NOT to consider this rollover tab a securing point of the lug and consider it just a sloppy part of the electrical crimp. Con sider why they are NOT used in certified aircraft. I hate to say this on a m ainly Experimental Email Site but... Not ALL Certified Aircraft procedures a re bad, or just done to satisfy the FAA, or are expensive just to line someo nes pocketbook. > There was just a long thread on this email site that discussed Insulated C rimp Connectors. The insulated part of the lug Supports the insulated part o f the wire. It gives it a secure holding point that DOES NOT cut into wire. > Something else to view (look at Mil Spec Lugs) and consider: Lugs that are NOT insulated do NOT support the wire insulation. > Over the decades I have worked in electronics I have see this type of lug y ou are considering fail as the rollover part cuts into the wire insulation. Mater of fact: The design of this type of rollover has changed. BUT! Has not gone away! > Let the Ground Bound Clowns (Chinese Junk) that are penny pinching use the m. You are a Pilot and a Builder, your plane and you are worth it. > > Barry > >> On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Alec Myers wrote: >> educate me.... >> >> why is uninsulated bad? >> What=99s the problem with the wrapover insulation support? >> >> On May 9, 2018, at 17:11, FLYaDIVE wrote: >> >> Art: >> >> I have got to ask... Are you building your experimental to any specific s pecs? >> As an Experimental Builder, yes, you are allowed to experiment all differ ent practices. >> But, I see no reason why all your wiring should not be the Best current p ractice. >> Those type connectors are very ancient and have all sorts of issues... >> Sharp Edges >> UN-INSULATED >> Grip Support of the wire insulation. >> No universal manufacturing procedures. Example Not Mil-Spec. >> Un-Acceptable Certified Design (FAA, AC 43.13) Yes, I know you are experi mental. >> Why would you want to use something from the dark ages? >> >> Barry >> >> >> >>> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Art Zemon wrote: >>> Folks, >>> >>> Does Digikey (or anyone) sell these terminals? http://www.aircraftspruce .com/catalog/elpages/aveotabterminals.php >>> They are regular Faston terminals but have a little tab on the bottom to keep them from slipping out of a plastic housing. >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> -- Art Z. >>> >>> -- >>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >>> >>> "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, wha t am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 10, 2018
Subject: Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals
Maybe an electric toothbrush? On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 7:16 PM, Alec Myers wrote: > Barry > > I=99d be as happy to prove you right, as wrong. I might think about how to > build a vibration test, somehow :) > > On May 10, 2018, at 21:57, FLYaDIVE wrote: > > Alec: > > They are at least twice as bad as I describe. If they were so > Manufacturerlly acceptable why are they not being used or recommended by > ALL the aviation manufactures and experimental aircraft suppliers such as > RV? > As for: " A penny saved on a termination is a false economy...", PENNY > HELL! The manufactures argue tenths of a cent (1 mill)! > > Your statement of HAND TOOL is spot ON! Look at the many ways those lugs > can be used and how many of those ways will NOT produce a proper crimp. > Look at the cost of a Mil-Spec Hand Tool to do the job. There is NO mone y > saved there. > > If as you say are interested in: "...trying to pick something suitable > for aircraft..." why not go with what is an industry standard - A Proven > Industry (Aviation) Standard? YES, I know in the Experimental Aviation > world you do not have to follow a majority of the FAA requirements and yo u > SHOULD and have the right to do better. But what are you comparing your > experimental idea too? > > Hey! Just had an idea... If you want to prove your thought process and > prove me wrong. Make a simple vibration test bench and shake the S#!+ ou t > of the the lug you picked and the ones the aviation industry use. > > Barry > > > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 6:44 PM, Alec Myers wrote: > >> My interest in this stems more from discerning myth from measureable fac t >> than trying to pick something suitable for aircraft, but I=99m afr aid I don=99t >> believe any industrial manufacturer would use them for anything at all, if >> they=99re even half as bad as you say. A penny saved on a terminat ion is a >> false economy if it decreases product reliability, and yet here they are , >> in use in white goods the world over. >> >> Perhaps there=99s an issue with reliable hand tool application? >> >> >> On May 10, 2018, at 18:08, FLYaDIVE wrote: >> >> Alec: >> >> In building or repairs it is always (in dreamland) the best case >> condition to cover the terminals as much as possible. Well, that is what we >> strive for. You might have seen rubber/silicone boots over such things as: >> Connection terminals on relays. >> Terminals on Alternators and even >> Terminals on Mags. >> Leaving terminals exposed opens up the high possibility of neighboring >> terminals to contact each other, or having something like a screwdriver or >> hardware drop on the terminal lug. >> When talking about the Why-Not of the metal rollover tabs. They Cut Int o >> the insulation of the wire. This is a weak point and a breaking point o f >> the wire MOUNT. It is best NOT to consider this rollover tab a securing >> point of the lug and consider it just a sloppy part of the electrical >> crimp. Consider why they are NOT used in certified aircraft. I hate to >> say this on a mainly Experimental Email Site but... Not ALL Certified >> Aircraft procedures are bad, or just done to satisfy the FAA, or are >> expensive just to line someones pocketbook. >> There was just a long thread on this email site that discussed Insulated >> Crimp Connectors. The insulated part of the lug Supports the insulated >> part of the wire. It gives it a secure holding point that DOES NOT cut >> into wire. >> Something else to view (look at Mil Spec Lugs) and consider: Lugs that >> are NOT insulated do NOT support the wire insulation. >> Over the decades I have worked in electronics I have see this type of lu g >> you are considering fail as the rollover part cuts into the wire >> insulation. Mater of fact: The design of this type of rollover has >> changed. BUT! Has not gone away! >> Let the Ground Bound Clowns (Chinese Junk) that are penny pinching use >> them. You are a Pilot and a Builder, your plane and you are worth it. >> >> Barry >> >> On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Alec Myers wrote: >> >>> educate me.... >>> >>> why is uninsulated bad? >>> What=99s the problem with the wrapover insulation support? >>> >>> On May 9, 2018, at 17:11, FLYaDIVE wrote: >>> >>> Art: >>> >>> I have got to ask... Are you building your experimental to any specifi c >>> specs? >>> As an Experimental Builder, yes, you are allowed to experiment all >>> different practices. >>> But, I see no reason why all your wiring should not be the Best current >>> practice. >>> Those type connectors are very ancient and have all sorts of issues... >>> Sharp Edges >>> UN-INSULATED >>> Grip Support of the wire insulation. >>> No universal manufacturing procedures. Example Not Mil-Spec. >>> Un-Acceptable Certified Design (FAA, AC 43.13) Yes, I know you are >>> experimental. >>> Why would you want to use something from the dark ages? >>> >>> Barry >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Art Zemon wrote: >>> >>>> Folks, >>>> >>>> Does Digikey (or anyone) sell these terminals? http://www.aircraft >>>> spruce.com/catalog/elpages/aveotabterminals.php >>>> They are regular Faston terminals but have a little tab on the bottom >>>> to keep them from slipping out of a plastic housing. >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> -- Art Z. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >>>> >>>> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, >>>> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* >>>> >>> >>> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bernie <arcticarrow(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 10, 2018
Subject: Re: Firewall Power Lug
Bob I like these rather sophisticated through firewall fittings but they all loo k permanent. Super Cubs have swing out mounts to access the mags and other a ccessories on the back of the engine. In spite of allowing extra length in cables some must be disconnected and ot hers allowed to move in the firewall. I believe Piper used a rubber grommet f or abrasion protection and then covered the whole area with a fireproof clay . It never gets hard and is easily replaced. I still get it at a commercial e lectrical supply. Any thought on this method? Bernie Sent from my iPhone > On May 10, 2018, at 12:02 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroel ectric.com> wrote: > > At 01:17 PM 5/10/2018, you wrote: >> I use the flanged stainless tube feed-through, with fire caulk & fireslee ve, detailed in the 'Connection and elsewhere. > > Here's a comic book I published a years back > illustrating the methodology used on Bonanza > and Baron aircraft at Beech. > > https://goo.gl/9vLwXF > > As far as I know, they still do it this way. > A good friend and colleague of many years > at Beech was a guy named Jack Thurman. He > was dungeon and rack master at "Thurman's > House of Horrors". The well worn admonition > concerning new ideas for bolting things > to Beech products was, "If Jack can't tear > it up, it's good to go on a Beechcraft." > > One of Jack's more impressive toys was a > propane fired burner (suitable for burning > really BIG weeds) that would bathe a firewall > mock-up with 2000 DegF flames. It's a certainty > that Master of Mayhem Thurman sprinkled > holy water on the techniques described above. > > At one time, members here on the list were > fabricating welded, stainless elbows with > flanges from the ends of COTS grab bars. > Cutting the ends of of something like this > would get you two elbows: > > https://goo.gl/6Q4jkC > > Unfortunately, these are pretty 'oversized' > for our tasks . . . and stick up off the > firewall quite a bit. > > One could consider fabricating from pre-bent > elbows, a flange washer cut from stainless sheet > and a short nipple of stainless tube. If you've > got access to a talented TIG driver, you could > probably come up with some pretty nice parts > sized to the task. > > > > > > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 11, 2018
Subject: Re: Current Limiter Questions
Art: When you ask a question about 'are Elastic Stop Nuts being OK', you step out of the realm of experimental into certified. NO! Elastic Stop Nuts are not acceptable anywhere under the engine cowl. <--- That is per a Certified Plane. Which side of the fence do you want sit on? Not even with star-washers under them. Now! Is the Manufacture of the current limiter correct in supplying Elastic Stop Nuts? Maybe? Maybe they are just being nice supplying them. After all, they Do Not Know where you are installing them! The other question that comes up is the location of the 'current limiters' - Putting them in an air flow INCREASES the current limiting point of the limiter. What does the specs say about the safety range of them? What was the ambient temperature of the testing? Barry On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 10:07 AM, Art Zemon wrote: > Folks, > > I am installing the current limiters in my plane. The engine is a Lycoming > IO-360 with a primary alternator (the belt driven one that came with the > used engine) and a B&C Aero backup alternator. Here is the photo: > > > I tied the ends together with a piece of brass buss bar from B&C. Spec > says that it is .025 x .5. Is that sufficient to carry the load for this > plane? My analysis has these loads: > > Typical 19 amps, 29 amps maximum > > With all devices on, including pitot heat: typical 32 amps, 49 amps maximum > > Also, B&C Aero shipped the current limiter holders with locknuts that have > plastic inserts. Are those OK on the engine side of the firewall? I thought > that I should only use all-metal locknuts on the engine side. > > -- Art Z. > > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what > am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 11, 2018
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals
> >There was just a long thread on this email site that discussed >Insulated Crimp Connectors. The insulated part of the lug Supports >the insulated part of the wire. It gives it a secure holding point >that DOES NOT cut into wire. B-crimp termination of wires on airplanes has appeared in the bills-of-materials on tens of thousands of type certificated aircraft for decades. I was at Cessna when the AMP Mate-n-lock products were incorporated into the wire harnesses. I too was skeptical of these 'new kids' on the block that seemed to dangerously ignore techniques and lessons-learned in the PIDG technology which was then already decades old. Emacs! The open-barrel, b-crimp technology now has a field-service record demonstrated in hundreds of millions of vehicular and stationary applications that makes them imminently suited to use on aircraft. The insulation grip does not have to 'cut into the wire' . . . as I described in the b-crimp tool comic book (and illustrated in this image from Tyco-AMP), the insulation grip should get a 'bear-hug' on the insulation without damage to it. [] These terminals were designed to be part of a harness connector wherein two or more wires were brought into a plastic housing as a female connector that mated with a switch, relay or other device. >[] > > There are hundreds of millions of examples of this technology in service all over the planet . . . including virtually all cars and trucks on the road today. B-crimp terminations probably outnumber PIDG style devices by several orders of magnitude. Emacs! My only concerns for the style illustrated were for the lack of finish and perhaps an unknown pedigree for the material's mechanical properties that go to maintenance of gas-tight electrical connection. But if these are found in catalogs from manufacturers like Tyco-AMP, Molex, etc . . . it is likely that those concerns are moot. If one wished to use these devices as mates to individual fast-on tabs, one could consider adding heat-shrink over the whole terminal . . . which offers more cover than the PIDG devices. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 11, 2018
Subject: Re: Bus bar materials
Bob: The question that Art brought up is due to inconsistency in terms; you used the term 'dope'. >From Art's question I gathered he wanted to do two things: 1 - Insure electrical contact and 2 - Prevent corrosion due to the elements and dissimilar materials. I agree we, are talking two different products. Dow Corning DC 4 is a Dielectric Grease. By definition and manufactures recommendations it is used to COAT a joint in preventing contact by the elements. Dielectric means INSULATE. It does NOT improve the conductive properties of metals or dissimilar metals. It protects them from the elements. Which is a good thing if that is all you want to do. The product which has the industry nickname DUCK GREASE does BOTH - Protect and Ensure electrical conductivity, especially between dissimulator metals. Personally I think this particular coating process is just a bit beyond normal requirements. Why? Well, I would have to ask: Is the owner going to REPEAT the exact same process every Annual/Safety Inspection? Remove/open the entire connection, clean the mating areas, replace the lock-washers and re-coat the area [with what ever process he deems acceptable]? Human Nature and 20+ years working on peoples planes, says: No! Considering how DUCK GREASE is used, it does not require replacement and it is used between mating parts. BUT! I still think it is Belts & Suspenders and Shoelaces. Many of the certified planes out there are around 40 years old. They nBarryow have a history. Those connections were NOT opened every Annual/Safety Inspection. Yet! They continue to work! If the additional coating process extends the unknown life of the connection / plane ... GREAT! We will see in 41 years. LoL! And Art... If you want to obtain Dielectric Grease it can be purchased at Auto Stores, it comes in a Yellow Packet, packaged by Permatex. Cost: About $1.00. Duck Grease is not as easy to find. Electrical Supply Outlets - It comes in a squeeze bottle usually with a red label and white writing. Barry On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:27 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 09:34 AM 5/9/2018, you wrote: > > Art: > > The term is Electrical DUCK Grease; it is just the opposite of Dielectric > Grease. > > > We're talking different materials that serve > two different purposes. There are useful materials to > add to joints in rigid components common to high > power technologies like submarines, sub-stations > etc. These not only exclude moisture, they contain > electrically conductive enhancements for crossing > voids that cannot be closed with tension in the > bolts. > > Then there are treatments intended to fill tiny gaps > between mated surfaces to prevent ingress of water/oxygen > that progressively degrades the joint. I have a tube > of Dow Corning DC4 that has lasted about 40 years > . . . it doesn't take much. It's used to thinly coat > mating surfaces of DUCTILE terminals. Any DC4 caught > in the squash on the two metals is simply extruded out. > But the tiniest voids in the interface will remain > completely filled with DC4. Other, non-reactive > materials would work too. Axle grease is better > than nothing. The CRC product cited is good. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 11, 2018
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Firewall Power Lug
At 10:47 PM 5/10/2018, you wrote: >Bob >I like these rather sophisticated through firewall fittings but they >all look permanent. Super Cubs have swing out mounts to access the >mags and other accessories on the back of the engine. >In spite of allowing extra length in cables some must be >disconnected and others allowed to move in the firewall. I believe >Piper used a rubber grommet for abrasion protection and then covered >the whole area with a fireproof clay. It never gets hard and is >easily replaced. I still get it at a commercial electrical supply. >Any thought on this method? One of the venerable ancestors and gurus of OBAM aviation, Tony Bingelis, described a technique for fabricating grommet shields over firewall penetrations. https://goo.gl/1e84NX This was 'the way' to raise the lowly rubber grommet's rank to guardian of the cockpit by first shielding as much of the grommet's expose rubber as practical and finally, molding a bit of fire-putty around the wire or control cable thus covering the gap in the shield. I think ACS and other sources offer pre-fabricated shields . . . Jack Thurman would, I'm sure, approve . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 11, 2018
Subject: Re: TyWraps redux
What do you mean PROBABLY!!! Certified Planes are Production Planes and do not come anywhere near the quality of work done by most Experimental Builders. Again, GREAT WORK Mickey. Barry On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 2:26 PM, Bob Verwey wrote: > Nice one! Prolly put some of those certified boys to shame! > > On Thu, 10 May 2018, 8:21 AM Mickey Coggins wrote: > >> FWF I used a lot of flat lace along with some adel clamps and I'm really >> happy with the way it turned out. I have some pictures here: >> >> http://www.rv8.ch/fwf-wiring-photos/ >> >> I also did some testing with a good heat gun on the lace to make sure >> that I understood how it would behave if it got really hot - I was >> impressed. It basically didn't seem to care, and I could not get it to >> melt or change state in any way with the heat gun that will cause Tefzel >> wiring to finally melt and smoke. >> >> In parallel, I bought some Nomex lace, which also does not care about >> getting cooked by a heat gun, and will probably add this next to the normal >> lace in places that might be exposed to additional heat from the exhaust >> pipes. Will give some feedback in a few years when I'm finally flying. :) >> >> Not sure why, but working with the lace was very satisfying. >> >> Mickey Coggins >> >> >> On Wed, 9 May 2018 at 18:14, FLYaDIVE wrote: >> >>> Good point Bob... >>> >>> In general BLACK Ty-Wraps are UV and Ozone proof. The white ones become >>> brittle with time and exposure. >>> SOME - not all colored Ty-Wraps may also work. >>> >>> One might even find notes on the Ty-Wrap packaging as to UV & Ozone >>> resistant. >>> >>> Barry >>> >>> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 4:32 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < >>> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: >>> >>>> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In a recent thread, TyWraps were discussed as a solution >>>> for wire bundle management. We had some discussions on >>>> these products about ten years back . . . >>>> >>>> In years since, I've had occasion to throw out stocks >>>> of unused TyWraps given that they had become brittle with >>>> age . . . the buckles would snap off in the ordinary process >>>> of applying the wrap. >>>> >>>> Be aware that not all that is plastic is Nylon 6,6. Evolved >>>> over the last 80+ years by DuPont. This material and its >>>> close cousins have found their way into all manner of component, >>>> many of which perform in under-hood environment of automobiles. >>>> >>>> When purchasing these critters, look for a 6-6, 6/6, 66 or even >>>> a 6,6 description of the nylon. The last time I was in Harbor >>>> Freight, many of their offerings bore such markings . . . but >>>> some did not . . . especially the smaller ones in assorted colors. >>>> >>>> All the wraps I pitched a few years ago were smaller sizes >>>> in various colors. Some had been in my Dad's inventory for untold >>>> years and were literally falling apart. >>>> >>>> My favorite bundle security uses Dacron flat lace applied >>>> like so . . . >>>> >>>> https://goo.gl/H3z1EQ >>>> >>>> Did a job for a rancher friend yesterday where the wiring was >>>> installed and initially held in place with some TyWraps he had >>>> laying around . . . after it was up and running, I dug out the >>>> roll of flat lace and installed a wrap adjacent to each of the >>>> TyWraps. Those plastic thingies MIGHT fall off in a few years >>>> but I'm betting the string will still be on duty. >>>> >>>> >>>> Bob . . . >>>> ========== >>>> - >>>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www. >>>> matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >>>> ========== >>>> FORUMS - >>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >>>> ========== >>>> WIKI - >>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >>>> ========== >>>> b Site - >>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>>> ========== >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 11, 2018
Subject: Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals
Bob: You are mixing Apples and Apple Sauce and coming up with Lumpy Apple Sauce. Those are PINS not Lugs. The Pins are supported by the connector. The Lugs are hanging out into the air. No support! And that is why PIDG type Lugs are preferred! Barry On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 9:11 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > There was just a long thread on this email site that discussed Insulated > Crimp Connectors. The insulated part of the lug Supports the insulated > part of the wire. It gives it a secure holding point that DOES NOT cut > into wire. > > > B-crimp termination of wires on airplanes has > appeared in the bills-of-materials on tens > of thousands of type certificated aircraft > for decades. I was at Cessna when the AMP > Mate-n-lock products were incorporated into > the wire harnesses. I too was skeptical of > these 'new kids' on the block that seemed > to dangerously ignore techniques and > lessons-learned in the PIDG technology which > was then already decades old. > > [image: Emacs!] > > The open-barrel, b-crimp technology now has > a field-service record demonstrated in hundreds > of millions of vehicular and stationary applications > that makes them imminently suited to use on > aircraft. The insulation grip does not have to 'cut > into the wire' . . . as I described in the b-crimp > tool comic book (and illustrated in this image > from Tyco-AMP), the insulation grip should get a > 'bear-hug' on the insulation without damage to it. > > [image: []] > > > These terminals were designed to be part of a > harness connector wherein two or more wires were > brought into a plastic housing as a female > connector that mated with a switch, relay or > other device. > > [image: []] > > > There are hundreds of millions > of examples of this technology in service all > over the planet . . . including virtually all > cars and trucks on the road today. B-crimp > terminations probably outnumber PIDG style > devices by several orders of magnitude. > > [image: Emacs!] > > My only concerns for the style illustrated > were for the lack of finish and perhaps an > unknown pedigree for the material's mechanical > properties that go to maintenance of gas-tight > electrical connection. > > But if these are found in catalogs from > manufacturers like Tyco-AMP, Molex, etc . . . > it is likely that those concerns are moot. > > If one wished to use these devices as > mates to individual fast-on tabs, one could > consider adding heat-shrink over the whole > terminal . . . which offers more cover than > the PIDG devices. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 11, 2018
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Firewall Power Lug
With all due respect to Tony, he overbuilt his dies. Place a section of thin stainless about the size of the palm of your hand o n a scrap of soft wood.=C2- A scrap of pine 2x4 will suffice.=C2- Place a=C2- larger size socket on it and whack it once good and hard with a go od size hammer.=C2- For a pretty job, you'll want to make two, and cut th em off-center, then attach so that they overlap.=C2- If you're not worrie d about appearance, cut one, install so that they overlap, and don't worry about the center not being circular.=C2- The same silicon used for cowl b affling can be used as a fire-barrier and is not as messy as clays and asso rted goops.=C2- Just cut a circle with a hole in it that will fit inside the depression. On Friday, May 11, 2018 9:21 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: At 10:47 PM 5/10/2018, you wrote: Bob I like these rather sophisticated through firewall fittings but they allloo k permanent. Super Cubs have swing out mounts to access the mags andother a ccessories on the back of the engine. In spite of allowing extra length in cables some must be disconnected andot hers allowed to move in the firewall. I believe Piper used a rubbergrommet for abrasion protection and then covered the whole area with afireproof cla y. It never gets hard and is easily replaced. I still get itat a commercial electrical supply. Any thought on thismethod? =C2- One of the venerable ancestors and gurus of =C2- OBAM aviation, Tony Bingelis, described a technique =C2- for fabricating grommet shields over firewall =C2- penetrations. https://goo.gl/1e84NX =C2- This was 'the way' to raise the lowly rubber =C2- grommet's rank to guardian of the cockpit =C2- by first shielding as much of the grommet's =C2- expose rubber as practical and finally, =C2- molding a bit of fire-putty around the wire =C2- or control cable thus covering the gap in the shield. =C2- I think ACS and other sources offer pre-fabricated =C2- shields . . . =C2- Jack Thurman would, I'm sure, approve . . . =C2- Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 11, 2018
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals
Why are you installing "lugs" that are hanging out into the air? Me thinks the problem with lugs is caused by the problem of not following a nother good practice, which is that the wire should be tied down in some ma nner to isolate the crimp connection from vibration.=C2- You have to anal yze the whole system.=C2- Not just one connector style. On Friday, May 11, 2018 9:58 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote: Bob: You are mixing Apples and Apple Sauce and coming up with Lumpy Apple Sauce. Those are PINS not Lugs.The Pins are supported by the connector.The Lugs ar e hanging out into the air. No support!And that is why PIDG type Lugs are p referred! Barry On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 9:11 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aero electric.com> wrote: - =C2- - There was just a long thread on this email site that discussedInsul ated Crimp Connectors.=C2- The insulated part of the lug Supportsthe insu lated part of the wire.=C2- It gives it a secure holding pointthat DOES N OT cut into wire. =C2- B-crimp termination of wires on airplanes has =C2- appeared in the bills-of-materials on tens =C2- of thousands of type certificated aircraft =C2- for decades. I was at Cessna when the AMP =C2- Mate-n-lock products were incorporated into =C2- the wire harnesses.=C2- I too was skeptical of =C2- these 'new kids' on the block that seemed =C2- to dangerously ignore techniques and =C2- lessons-learned in the PIDG technology which =C2- was then already decades old. =C2- =C2-=C2-=C2- The open-barrel, b-crimp technology nowhas =C2-=C2-=C2- a field-service record demonstrated in hundreds =C2-=C2-=C2- of millions of vehicular and stationaryapplications =C2-=C2-=C2- that makes them imminently suited to use on =C2-=C2-=C2- aircraft.=C2- The insulation grip does not have to'cut =C2-=C2-=C2- into the wire' . . . as I described in theb-crimp =C2-=C2-=C2- tool comic book (and illustrated in this image =C2-=C2-=C2- from Tyco-AMP), the insulation grip should get a =C2-=C2-=C2- 'bear-hug' on the insulation without damage toit. =C2- =C2-=C2-=C2- These terminals were designed to be part of a =C2-=C2-=C2- harness connector wherein two or more wires were =C2-=C2-=C2- brought into a plastic housing as a female =C2-=C2-=C2- connector that mated with a switch, relay or =C2-=C2-=C2- other device. - =C2- =C2-=C2-=C2- There are hundreds of millions =C2-=C2-=C2- of examples of this technology in service all =C2-=C2-=C2- over the planet . . . including virtually all =C2-=C2-=C2- cars and trucks on the road today.=C2- B-crimp =C2-=C2-=C2- terminations probably outnumber PIDG style =C2-=C2-=C2- devices by several orders of magnitude. =C2-=C2-=C2- My only concerns for the style illustrated =C2-=C2-=C2- were for the lack of finish and perhaps an =C2-=C2-=C2- unknown pedigree for the material's mechanical =C2-=C2-=C2- properties that go to maintenance of gas-tight =C2-=C2-=C2- electrical connection. =C2- =C2-=C2-=C2- But if these are found in catalogs from =C2-=C2-=C2- manufacturers like Tyco-AMP, Molex, etc . . . =C2-=C2-=C2- it is likely that those concerns are moot. =C2-=C2-=C2- If one wished to use these devices as =C2-=C2-=C2- mates to individual fast-on tabs, one could =C2-=C2-=C2- consider adding heat-shrink over the whole =C2-=C2-=C2- terminal . . . which offers more cover than =C2-=C2-=C2- the PIDG devices. =C2- Bob . . . /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDAAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQH/2wBDAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQH/wAARCAEjAZADASIA AhEBAxEB/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtRAAAgEDAwIEAwUFBAQA AAF9AQIDAAQRBRIhMUEGE1FhByJxFDKBkaEII0KxwRVS0fAkM2JyggkKFhcYGRolJicoKSo0NTY3 ODk6Q0RFRkdISUpTVFVWV1hZWmNkZWZnaGlqc3R1dnd4eXqDhIWGh4iJipKTlJWWl5iZmqKjpKWm p6ipqrKztLW2t7i5usLDxMXGx8jJytLT1NXW19jZ2uHi4+Tl5ufo6erx8vP09fb3+Pn6/8QAHwEA AwEBAQEBAQEBAQAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtREAAgECBAQDBAcFBAQAAQJ3AAECAxEEBSEx BhJBUQdhcRMiMoEIFEKRobHBCSMzUvAVYnLRChYkNOEl8RcYGRomJygpKjU2Nzg5OkNERUZHSElK U1RVVldYWVpjZGVmZ2hpanN0dXZ3eHl6goOEhYaHiImKkpOUlZaXmJmaoqOkpaanqKmqsrO0tba3 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Date: May 11, 2018
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals
At 08:56 AM 5/11/2018, you wrote: >Bob: > >You are mixing Apples and Apple Sauce and coming up with Lumpy Apple Sauce. > >Those are PINS not Lugs. okay . . . >The Pins are supported by the connector. yes . . . >The Lugs are hanging out into the air. No support! that's what double wall heat shrink is for . . . >And that is why PIDG type Lugs are preferred! preferred but not necessarily required . . . especially when using 'softer' fat wires for battery/starter circuits. Emacs! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 11, 2018
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals
At 10:29 AM 5/11/2018, you wrote: >Why are you installing "lugs" that are hanging out into the air? > >Me thinks the problem with lugs is caused by the problem of not >following another good practice, which is that the wire should be >tied down in some manner to isolate the crimp connection from >vibration. You have to analyze the whole system. Not just one >connector style. Agreed. Nearly all creative arts from cooking to building airplanes, building houses and certainly all engineering is a study in (1) properties of materials and (2) management of energy as a SYSTEM. Policy and procedure can be exceedingly helpful (as long as it is correct . . . remember the AC43.13 fiasco of about 15 years back?) but it can never replace understanding of the physics. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com>
Date: May 11, 2018
Subject: Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals
Both molex .062 type and AMP mate-n-lok connectors have wrapover insulation s upports on the pins, and manage well without further support from the back s hell. That is considered adequate, with appropriate wire support in the bund le. On May 11, 2018, at 12:34, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectri c.com> wrote: At 10:29 AM 5/11/2018, you wrote: > Why are you installing "lugs" that are hanging out into the air? > > Me thinks the problem with lugs is caused by the problem of not following a nother good practice, which is that the wire should be tied down in some man ner to isolate the crimp connection from vibration. You have to analyze the whole system. Not just one connector style. Agreed. Nearly all creative arts from cooking to building airplanes, building houses and certainly all engineering is a study in (1) properties of materials and (2) management of energy as a SYSTEM. Policy and procedure can be exceedingly helpful (as long as it is correct . . . remember the AC43.13 fiasco of about 15 years back?) but it can never replace understanding of the physics. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 11, 2018
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Bus bar materials
At 08:14 AM 5/11/2018, you wrote: >Bob: > >The question that Art brought up is due to >inconsistency in terms; you used the term 'dope'.=C2 =C2 > From Art's question I gathered he wanted to do two things: >1 - Insure electrical contact and >2 - Prevent corrosion due to the elements and dissimilar materials. > >I agree we, are talking two different products. > >Dow Corning DC 4 is a Dielectric Grease. >By definition and manufactures recommendations >it is used to COAT a joint in preventing contact by the elements. >Dielectric means INSULATE. >It does NOT improve the conductive properties of metals or dissimilar metals. >It protects them from the elements. Which is a >good thing if that is all you want to do. That IS all I want and expect it do to . . . >The product which has the industry nickname DUCK >GREASE does BOTH - Protect and Ensure electrical >conductivity, especially between dissimulator metals. >Personally I think this particular coating >process is just a bit beyond normal requirements. >Why? Well, I would have to ask: Is the owner >going to REPEAT the exact same process every Annual/Safety Inspection? >Remove/open the entire connection, clean the >mating areas, replace the lock-washers and >re-coat the area [with what ever process he deems acceptable]? Yeah . . . AC43.13 used to have a paragraph or two about "inspection of bus bars . . . with recommendations for refurbishment on condition. If any combination is assembled to specs and remains tight, then there is no reason to 'inspect'. This applies to every rivet in the airplane, all the fasteners in the engine, etc. etc. >Human Nature and 20+ years working on peoples planes, says: No! >Considering how DUCK GREASE is used, it does not >require replacement and it is used >between mating parts. BUT! I still think it is >Belts & Suspenders and Shoelaces. When you simply twist two strands of freshly exposed wire together in the classic 'Western Union" telegraph splice . . . that joint is presently as good as it will ever be. The telegraph guys didn't solder them because tension on the suspended wires maintained gas-tight connections where the forces peaked on the interfaces. Solder was later used to enhance integrity from environmental stresses . . . an excellent encapsulation that protected the edges of the regions of gas-tightness. DC4 or any other material used in the interface of devices on threaded fasteners does the same thing. The day that the assembly is made up brand new . . . is as good as that joint is ever going to be. Now, if the fastener stays tight and DC4 (or other good stuff) protects the boundaries of gas-tightness . . . the join's integrity will not degrade with age. > >Many of the certified planes out there are around 40 years old. >They nBarryow have a history. Those connections were NOT opened >every Annual/Safety Inspection. Yet! They continue to work! >If the additional coating process extends the unknown life of the >connection / plane ... GREAT! We will see in 41 years. My point exactly. We did not use ANY goops, greases, magic juice or pixie dust in the assembly of production airplane. The goal was to create joint with a life expectancy longer than the airframe itself . . . with, what you have observedis a high degree of success. DUCK grease may well be belt, suspenders and shoe laces . . . but DC4 (or equal) is at least belt and suspenders and probably useful in the most exposed joints . . . like those ground screws on an antenna? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Authority to solder splice a wire
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 11, 2018
I don't think shrink wrap was invented when AC43.13 was written :) -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480080#480080 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Date: May 12, 2018
Subject: Re: Authority to solder splice a wire
Ira I agree with you, I think shrink wrap was invented only after AC43.13 was published ... Carlos Enviado do meu iPhone No dia 11/05/2018, s 21:22, rampil escreveu: > > I don't think shrink wrap was invented when AC43.13 was written :) > > -------- > Ira N224XS > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480080#480080 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Authority to solder splice a wire
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: May 12, 2018
You might be correct about the original version of AC 43-13-1. However, the current version AC 43-13-1B was published Sept 1998, with change 1 issued Sept 2001. Most of the editing was done a few years earlier. I can recall using heat shrink tubing in the early 80's and probably before that. AC 43-13-2B (alterations) was issued even more recently. Those dates straight from the cover of my desk reference copy. Kelly On 5/12/2018 1:34 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote: > > Ira > > I agree with you, I think shrink wrap was invented only after AC43.13 was published ... > > Carlos > > Enviado do meu iPhone > > No dia 11/05/2018, s 21:22, rampil escreveu: > >> >> I don't think shrink wrap was invented when AC43.13 was written :) >> >> -------- >> Ira N224XS ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Authority to solder splice a wire
From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 12, 2018
------> Kelly -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480088#480088 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: May 12, 2018
Subject: Re: Authority to solder splice a wire
OK... I had to go look it up. Heat-shrink tubing was invented by Raychem Corporation in 1962. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat-shrink_tubing Cheers, -- Art Z. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 12, 2018
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Authority to solder splice a wire
Just out of curiosity, is there a way to get a diff of what changed in the current version of AC43-13? We always here that its a document written in the blood of others mistakes. =C2- It would be telling to know what new "mistakes" were incorporated, a s well as knowing what new materials and techniques the FAA considers accep table. On Saturday, May 12, 2018 9:57 AM, Art Zemon wrote: OK... I had to go look it up.=C2-Heat-shrink tubing was invented by Rayc hem Corporation in 1962. See=C2-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat-shrink _tubing Cheers,=C2- =C2- -- Art Z. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what a m I? And if not now, when?" Hillel ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Authority to solder splice a wire
From: "Eric Page" <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: May 12, 2018
echristley(at)att.net wrote: > Just out of curiosity, is there a way to get a diff of what changed in the current version of AC43-13? Look for a black vertical bar in the left margin. It indicates that the text beside it has been changed from the last revision. This obviously doesnt provide a comparison with the superseded text, but if you have the old version as well, it shows where to compare. Eric Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480093#480093 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 13, 2018
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Authority to solder splice a wire
At 11:20 AM 5/12/2018, you wrote: >Just out of curiosity, is there a way to get a diff of what changed >in the current version of AC43-13? > >We always here that its a document written in the blood of others >mistakes. It would be telling to know what new "mistakes" were >incorporated, as well as knowing what new materials and techniques >the FAA considers acceptable. > That was an interesting revision process . . . AC43-13 had not been substantially revised in decades. When keepers of the flame were about to release the latest upgrade, they sent a copy to the technical services guru at EAA . . . his name escapes me at the moment . . . and asked if EAA members could review the document and offer advice on "typos and syntax, etc. By the way, we need your input in about a week." I received a copy of chapter 11. Other chapters were sent to various subject matter experts in EAA. I think I spent 4-5 late night sessions on the keyboard and managed to get my contributions, about a dozen pages of comments, in under the wire. I've got a copy of the EAA submission around here somewhere . . . I'll have to dig a bit. In any case, the total suggestion package was substantial. The target for releasing the revision was pushed back several months . . . almost a year I think. When it finally did get released, most of what EAA submitted was incorporated into the document . . . but a few new toe-stubbers were added as well (sigh) . . . nevertheless, it was a gratifying experience. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
Date: May 14, 2018
Subject: Re: TyWraps redux
Thanks for the kind words - just doing it like Bob taught me via his book and many PDFs and images. Mickey Coggins On Fri, 11 May 2018 at 15:39, FLYaDIVE wrote: > What do you mean PROBABLY!!! > > Certified Planes are Production Planes and do not come anywhere near the > quality of work done by most Experimental Builders. > > Again, GREAT WORK Mickey. > > Barry > > > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 2:26 PM, Bob Verwey wrote: > >> Nice one! Prolly put some of those certified boys to shame! >> >> On Thu, 10 May 2018, 8:21 AM Mickey Coggins >> wrote: >> >>> FWF I used a lot of flat lace along with some adel clamps and I'm really >>> happy with the way it turned out. I have some pictures here: >>> >>> http://www.rv8.ch/fwf-wiring-photos/ >>> >>> I also did some testing with a good heat gun on the lace to make sure >>> that I understood how it would behave if it got really hot - I was >>> impressed. It basically didn't seem to care, and I could not get it to >>> melt or change state in any way with the heat gun that will cause Tefzel >>> wiring to finally melt and smoke. >>> >>> In parallel, I bought some Nomex lace, which also does not care about >>> getting cooked by a heat gun, and will probably add this next to the normal >>> lace in places that might be exposed to additional heat from the exhaust >>> pipes. Will give some feedback in a few years when I'm finally flying. :) >>> >>> Not sure why, but working with the lace was very satisfying. >>> >>> Mickey Coggins >>> >>> >>> On Wed, 9 May 2018 at 18:14, FLYaDIVE wrote: >>> >>>> Good point Bob... >>>> >>>> In general BLACK Ty-Wraps are UV and Ozone proof. The white ones >>>> become brittle with time and exposure. >>>> SOME - not all colored Ty-Wraps may also work. >>>> >>>> One might even find notes on the Ty-Wrap packaging as to UV & Ozone >>>> resistant. >>>> >>>> Barry >>>> >>>> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 4:32 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < >>>> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In a recent thread, TyWraps were discussed as a solution >>>>> for wire bundle management. We had some discussions on >>>>> these products about ten years back . . . >>>>> >>>>> In years since, I've had occasion to throw out stocks >>>>> of unused TyWraps given that they had become brittle with >>>>> age . . . the buckles would snap off in the ordinary process >>>>> of applying the wrap. >>>>> >>>>> Be aware that not all that is plastic is Nylon 6,6. Evolved >>>>> over the last 80+ years by DuPont. This material and its >>>>> close cousins have found their way into all manner of component, >>>>> many of which perform in under-hood environment of automobiles. >>>>> >>>>> When purchasing these critters, look for a 6-6, 6/6, 66 or even >>>>> a 6,6 description of the nylon. The last time I was in Harbor >>>>> Freight, many of their offerings bore such markings . . . but >>>>> some did not . . . especially the smaller ones in assorted colors. >>>>> >>>>> All the wraps I pitched a few years ago were smaller sizes >>>>> in various colors. Some had been in my Dad's inventory for untold >>>>> years and were literally falling apart. >>>>> >>>>> My favorite bundle security uses Dacron flat lace applied >>>>> like so . . . >>>>> >>>>> https://goo.gl/H3z1EQ >>>>> >>>>> Did a job for a rancher friend yesterday where the wiring was >>>>> installed and initially held in place with some TyWraps he had >>>>> laying around . . . after it was up and running, I dug out the >>>>> roll of flat lace and installed a wrap adjacent to each of the >>>>> TyWraps. Those plastic thingies MIGHT fall off in a few years >>>>> but I'm betting the string will still be on duty. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Bob . . . >>>>> ========== >>>>> - >>>>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"> >>>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >>>>> ========== >>>>> FORUMS - >>>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >>>>> ========== >>>>> WIKI - >>>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >>>>> ========== >>>>> b Site - >>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >>>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>>>> ========== >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: May 14, 2018
Subject: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
=8B=8B Folks, I am *finally* to the point on my project of starting the engine. When I first engage the starter, voltage drops so low that my EFIS reboots. The EFIS immediately reboots, less than 1 second later, but it takes several seconds for the engine instruments to come back online. It is a 12 volt system. During engine start, the equipment is drawing about 5 amps (other than the starter motor). I need about 9 volts to keep the EFIS from rebooting. I am using figure Z-12 with very minor modifications: replaced the ammeter shunts with hall effect sensors and rearranged the switches a bit. You can see my modified diagram here: engine.pdf What would be the simplest way to fix this issue? -- Art Z. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 14, 2018
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
Battery for the EFIS? Does MGL make a backup battery for your engine monitor? On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 4:51 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > =8B=8B > Folks, > > I am *finally* to the point on my project of starting the engine. When I > first engage the starter, voltage drops so low that my EFIS reboots. The > EFIS immediately reboots, less than 1 second later, but it takes several > seconds for the engine instruments to come back online. > > It is a 12 volt system. During engine start, the equipment is drawing > about 5 amps (other than the starter motor). I need about 9 volts to keep > the EFIS from rebooting. > > I am using figure Z-12 with very minor modifications: replaced the ammete r > shunts with hall effect sensors and rearranged the switches a bit. You ca n > see my modified diagram here: engine.pdf > > > What would be the simplest way to fix this issue? > > -- Art Z. > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, wha t > am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: May 14, 2018
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
Sebastien, MGL sells the AvioGuard, a DC-to-DC converting power supply for isolating the avionics from the rest of the aircraft system. It supports a backup battery. Cost would be $450 + the battery. I am hoping for a less expensive solution. -- Art Z. On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 7:09 PM, Sebastien wrote: > Battery for the EFIS? Does MGL make a backup battery for your engine > monitor? > > On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 4:51 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > >> =8B=8B >> Folks, >> >> I am *finally* to the point on my project of starting the engine. When I >> first engage the starter, voltage drops so low that my EFIS reboots. The >> EFIS immediately reboots, less than 1 second later, but it takes several >> seconds for the engine instruments to come back online. >> >> It is a 12 volt system. During engine start, the equipment is drawing >> about 5 amps (other than the starter motor). I need about 9 volts to kee p >> the EFIS from rebooting. >> >> I am using figure Z-12 with very minor modifications: replaced the >> ammeter shunts with hall effect sensors and rearranged the switches a bi t. >> You can see my modified diagram here: engine.pdf >> >> >> What would be the simplest way to fix this issue? >> > -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Brian Lester <brian.lester(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 14, 2018
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
What about something like this? http://www.tcwtech.com/ibbs_integrated_backup_battery_system_3ah_6ah.html As long as the rest of your system meets your needs this will at least fix the voltage drop issue for the EFIS. On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 8:45 PM Art Zemon wrote: > Sebastien, > > MGL sells the AvioGuard, a DC-to-DC converting power supply for isolating > the avionics from the rest of the aircraft system. It supports a backup > battery. Cost would be $450 + the battery. > > I am hoping for a less expensive solution. > > -- Art Z. > > > On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 7:09 PM, Sebastien wrote: > >> Battery for the EFIS? Does MGL make a backup battery for your engine >> monitor? >> >> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 4:51 PM, Art Zemon wrote: >> >>> =8B=8B >>> Folks, >>> >>> I am *finally* to the point on my project of starting the engine. When >>> I first engage the starter, voltage drops so low that my EFIS reboots. The >>> EFIS immediately reboots, less than 1 second later, but it takes severa l >>> seconds for the engine instruments to come back online. >>> >>> It is a 12 volt system. During engine start, the equipment is drawing >>> about 5 amps (other than the starter motor). I need about 9 volts to ke ep >>> the EFIS from rebooting. >>> >>> I am using figure Z-12 with very minor modifications: replaced the >>> ammeter shunts with hall effect sensors and rearranged the switches a b it. >>> You can see my modified diagram here: engine.pdf >>> >>> >>> What would be the simplest way to fix this issue? >>> >> > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, wha t > am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 14, 2018
Ebay for a 'boot/buck switching regulator' sized for your needs (likely way less than$30), and an aux battery sized the same way=2E Create a 'mini' bu s for the items you want to isolate=2E If all you want is brownout protect ion, a little 2 or 3 AH battery shoul be more than enough=2E There are oth er commercial products available that do the same thing, but obviously you will pay more=2E =81=A3Charlie=8B On May 14, 2018, 7:45 PM, at 7 :45 PM, Art Zemon wrote: >Sebastien, > >MGL sells the Av ioGuard, a DC-to-DC converting power supply for >isolating >the avionics fr om the rest of the aircraft system=2E It supports a backup >battery=2E Cost would be $450 + the battery=2E > >I am hoping for a less expensive solutio n=2E > > -- Art Z=2E > > >On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 7:09 PM, Sebastien wrote: > >> Battery for the EFIS? Does MGL make a backup battery for your engine >> monitor? >> >> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 4:51 PM, Art Zemon wrote: >> >>> =8B=8B >>> Folks, >> > >>> I am *finally* to the point on my project of starting the engine=2E > When I >>> first engage the starter, voltage drops so low that my EFIS rebo ots=2E >The >>> EFIS immediately reboots, less than 1 second later, but it takes >several >>> seconds for the engine instruments to come back online =2E >>> >>> It is a 12 volt system=2E During engine start, the equipment is >drawing >>> about 5 amps (other than the starter motor)=2E I need about 9 volts to >keep >>> the EFIS from rebooting=2E >>> >>> I am using figure Z- 12 with very minor modifications: replaced the >>> ammeter shunts with hall effect sensors and rearranged the switches >a bit=2E >>> You can see my mo dified diagram here: engine=2Epdf >>> > >>> >>> What would b e the simplest way to fix this issue? >>> >> > >-- >https://CheerfulCurmud geon=2Ecom/ > >*"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only fo r myself, >what >am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au>
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
Date: May 15, 2018
I can=99t help wondering if your primary battery is aged and below par Art, but I second the IBBS from TCW Tech. Installed in parallel with a decent Schottky diode (bought mine from Eric at http://periheliondesign.com/ ) it=99s a simple way to overcome voltage sag on the bus during start and provides alternate power (hardwired to essential items of your choosing) in an emergency. Cheers, Stu > On 15 May 2018, at 10:56, Brian Lester wrote: > > What about something like this? > http://www.tcwtech.com/ibbs_integrated_backup_battery_system_3ah_6ah.html <http://www.tcwtech.com/ibbs_integrated_backup_battery_system_3ah_6ah.html > > > As long as the rest of your system meets your needs this will at least fix the voltage drop issue for the EFIS. > > > On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 8:45 PM Art Zemon > wrote: > Sebastien, > > MGL sells the AvioGuard, a DC-to-DC converting power supply for isolating the avionics from the rest of the aircraft system. It supports a backup battery. Cost would be $450 + the battery. > > I am hoping for a less expensive solution. > > -- Art Z. > > > On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 7:09 PM, Sebastien > wrote: > Battery for the EFIS? Does MGL make a backup battery for your engine monitor? > > On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 4:51 PM, Art Zemon > wrote: > =8B=8B > Folks, > > I am finally to the point on my project of starting the engine. When I first engage the starter, voltage drops so low that my EFIS reboots. The EFIS immediately reboots, less than 1 second later, but it takes several seconds for the engine instruments to come back online. > > It is a 12 volt system. During engine start, the equipment is drawing about 5 amps (other than the starter motor). I need about 9 volts to keep the EFIS from rebooting. > > I am using figure Z-12 with very minor modifications: replaced the ammeter shunts with hall effect sensors and rearranged the switches a bit. You can see my modified diagram here: engine.pdf > > What would be the simplest way to fix this issue? > > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: May 14, 2018
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
Charlie, That sounds like exactly what I need: brownout protection for one to two seconds. Is this the sort of regulator that I need? https://www.ebay.com/itm/DROK-High-Efficiency-Regulator-DC-4-5-30V-to-0-8-2 8V-12A-Buck-Converter-Const/152990560495 -- Art Z. On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Charlie England wrote: > Ebay for a 'boot/buck switching regulator' sized for your needs (likely > way less than$30), and an aux battery sized the same way. Create a 'mini' > bus for the items you want to isolate. > > If all you want is brownout protection, a little 2 or 3 AH battery shoul > be more than enough. > > There are other commercial products available that do the same thing, but > obviously you will pay more. > > Charlie > On May 14, 2018, at 7:45 PM, Art Zemon wrote: >> >> Sebastien, >> >> MGL sells the AvioGuard, a DC-to-DC converting power supply for isolatin g >> the avionics from the rest of the aircraft system. It supports a backup >> battery. Cost would be $450 + the battery. >> >> I am hoping for a less expensive solution. >> >> -- Art Z. >> >> >> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 7:09 PM, Sebastien wrote: >> >>> Battery for the EFIS? Does MGL make a backup battery for your engine >>> monitor? >>> >>> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 4:51 PM, Art Zemon wrote: >>> >>>> =8B=8B >>>> Folks, >>>> >>>> I am *finally* to the point on my project of starting the engine. When >>>> I first engage the starter, voltage drops so low that my EFIS reboots. The >>>> EFIS immediately reboots, less than 1 second later, but it takes sever al >>>> seconds for the engine instruments to come back online. >>>> >>>> It is a 12 volt system. During engine start, the equipment is drawing >>>> about 5 amps (other than the starter motor). I need about 9 volts to k eep >>>> the EFIS from rebooting. >>>> >>>> I am using figure Z-12 with very minor modifications: replaced the >>>> ammeter shunts with hall effect sensors and rearranged the switches a bit. >>>> You can see my modified diagram here: engine.pdf >>>> >>>> >>>> What would be the simplest way to fix this issue? >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >> >> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, >> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* >> > -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 14, 2018
From: Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
Read the specifications carefully as the following statement from their specs might be an issue. "Please note: the negative of input and output wiring cannot be common ground." Bob McC > ---------- Original Message ---------- > From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> > Date: May 14, 2018 at 9:47 PM > > Charlie, > > That sounds like exactly what I need: brownout protection for one to two > seconds. Is this the sort of regulator that I need? > https://www.ebay.com/itm/DROK-High-Efficiency-Regulator-DC-4-5-30V-to-0-8-28V-12A-Buck-Converter-Const/152990560495 > > -- Art Z. > > > On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Charlie England < ceengland7(at)gmail.com > > wrote: > > > > Ebay for a 'boot/buck switching regulator' sized for your > > > needs (likely way less than$30), and an aux battery sized the same > > > way. Create a 'mini' bus for the items you want to isolate. > > > > If all you want is brownout protection, a little 2 or 3 AH battery > > shoul be more than enough. > > > > There are other commercial products available that do the same > > thing, but obviously you will pay more. > > > > Charlie > > On May 14, 2018, at 7:45 PM, Art Zemon < art(at)zemon.name > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Sebastien, > > > > > > MGL sells the AvioGuard, a DC-to-DC converting power supply > > > for isolating the avionics from the rest of the aircraft system. It > > > supports a backup battery. Cost would be $450 + the battery. > > > > > > I am hoping for a less expensive solution. > > > > > > -- Art Z. > > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 7:09 PM, Sebastien < cluros(at)gmail.com > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Battery for the EFIS? Does MGL > > > > > > > make a backup battery for your engine monitor? > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 4:51 PM, Art Zemon < > > > > art(at)zemon.name > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Folks, > > > > > > > > > > I am finally to the point on my project of > > > > > starting the engine. When I first engage the starter, voltage drops so > > > > > low that my EFIS reboots. The EFIS immediately reboots, less than 1 > > > > > second later, but it takes several seconds for the engine instruments > > > > > to come back online. > > > > > > > > > > It is a 12 volt system. During engine start, the > > > > > equipment is drawing about 5 amps (other than the starter motor). I > > > > > need about 9 volts to keep the EFIS from rebooting. > > > > > > > > > > I am using figure Z-12 with very minor > > > > > modifications: replaced the ammeter shunts with hall effect sensors > > > > > and rearranged the switches a bit. You can see my modified diagram > > > > > here: engine.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What would be the simplest way to fix this issue? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > > > > > > > > "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for > > > myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what > am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 14, 2018
Here is circuit. A disadvantage is 1/2 volt drop across the Schottky diode. But if the aircraft electrical system voltage is 14.2 or higher, it should be OK. Diode part number: 747-DSA300i45NA If the voltage drop across the diode is not desired, normally closed relay contacts could be connected in parallel with the diode. Energize the relay with the start push button. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480130#480130 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/brownout_bat_efis_135.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Date: May 14, 2018
Check out TCWTechs stuff. They have both backup batteries, and a power stabilizer that they offer that would do the trick. http://www.tcwtech.com/ Tim On 5/14/2018 7:38 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > Sebastien, > > MGL sells the AvioGuard, a DC-to-DC converting power supply for > isolating the avionics from the rest of the aircraft system. It supports > a backup battery. Cost would be $450 + the battery. > > I am hoping for a less expensive solution. > > -- Art Z. > > > On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 7:09 PM, Sebastien > wrote: > > Battery for the EFIS? Does MGL make a backup battery for your engine > monitor? > > On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 4:51 PM, Art Zemon > wrote: > > > Folks, > > I am /finally/to the point on my project of starting the > engine. When I first engage the starter, voltage drops so low > that my EFIS reboots. The EFIS immediately reboots, less than 1 > second later, but it takes several seconds for the engine > instruments to come back online. > > It is a 12 volt system. During engine start, the equipment is > drawing about 5 amps (other than the starter motor). I need > about 9 volts to keep the EFIS from rebooting. > > I am using figure Z-12 with very minor modifications: replaced > the ammeter shunts with hall effect sensors and rearranged the > switches a bit. You can see my modified diagram here: engine.pdf > > > What would be the simplest way to fix this issue? > > > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, > what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 14, 2018
That one appears to be buck only=2E Should still work fine if you only expe ct brownout protection=2E It can't do full charge voltage, but can likely d o around 13-13=2E5v when fed 14=2E5 by the alternator=2E But if you're do ing that, it would be simpler and cheaper to just use a fat schottsky diode =2E Again, ebay for the best price=2E =81=A3Charlie=8B On May 14 , 2018, 8:53 PM, at 8:53 PM, Art Zemon wrote: >Charlie, > >That sounds like exactly what I need: brownout protection for one to >tw o >seconds=2E Is this the sort of regulator that I need? >https://www=2Eeba y=2Ecom/itm/DROK-High-Efficiency-Regulator-DC-4-5-30V-to-0-8-28V-12A-Buck-C onverter-Const/152990560495 > > -- Art Z=2E > > >On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Charlie England >wrote: > >> Ebay for a 'boot/buck switching regulator' sized for your needs >(likely >> way less t han$30), and an aux battery sized the same way=2E Create a >'mini' >> bus f or the items you want to isolate=2E >> >> If all you want is brownout prote ction, a little 2 or 3 AH battery >shoul >> be more than enough=2E >> >> Th ere are other commercial products available that do the same thing, >but >> obviously you will pay more=2E >> >> Charlie >> On May 14, 2018, at 7:45 P M, Art Zemon wrote: >>> >>> Sebastien, >>> >>> MGL sells the AvioGuard, a DC-to-DC converting power supply for >isolating >>> the a vionics from the rest of the aircraft system=2E It supports a >backup >>> b attery=2E Cost would be $450 + the battery=2E >>> >>> I am hoping for a les s expensive solution=2E >>> >>> -- Art Z=2E >>> >>> >>> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 7:09 PM, Sebastien wrote: >>> >>>> Battery fo r the EFIS? Does MGL make a backup battery for your >engine >>>> monitor? > >>> >>>> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 4:51 PM, Art Zemon wrot e: >>>> >>>>> =8B=8B >>>>> Folks, >>>>> >>>>> I am *finally* to the point on my project of starting the engine=2E >When >>>>> I first enga ge the starter, voltage drops so low that my EFIS >reboots=2E The >>>>> EFI S immediately reboots, less than 1 second later, but it takes >several >>>> > seconds for the engine instruments to come back online=2E >>>>> >>>>> It is a 12 volt system=2E During engine start, the equipment is >drawing >>>>> about 5 amps (other than the starter motor)=2E I need about 9 volts >to ke ep >>>>> the EFIS from rebooting=2E >>>>> >>>>> I am using figure Z-12 with very minor modifications: replaced the >>>>> ammeter shunts with hall effe ct sensors and rearranged the >switches a bit=2E >>>>> You can see my modif ied diagram here: engine=2Epdf >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> What woul d be the simplest way to fix this issue? >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> https:// CheerfulCurmudgeon=2Ecom/ >>> >>> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for >myself, >>> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* >>> >> > > >-- >https://CheerfulCurmudgeon=2Ecom/ > >*"If I am not for my self, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, >what >am I? And if not n ow, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 14, 2018
Ooh, good catch! =81=A3Charlie=8B On May 14, 2018, 9:13 PM, at 9 :13 PM, Robert McCallum wrote: >Read th e specifications carefully as the following statement from their >specs >mi ght be an issue=2E > >"Please note: the negative of input and output wiring cannot be common >ground=2E" > >Bob McC > >> ---------- Original Message - --------- >> From: Art Zemon <art@zemon=2Ename> >> Date: May 14, 20 18 at 9:47 PM >> >> Charlie, >> >> That sounds like exactly what I need: brownout protection for one >to two >> seconds=2E Is this the sort of regulator that I need? >> >https://www=2Eebay=2Ecom/itm/DROK-High-Effici ency-Regulator-DC-4-5-30V-to-0-8-28V-12A-Buck-Converter-Const/152990560495 >> >> -- Art Z=2E >> >> >> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Char lie England < >ceengland7@gmail=2Ecom >> > wrote: >> >> > > Ebay for a 'boot/buck switching regulator ' sized >for your >> > > needs (likely way less than$30), and an au x battery sized >the same >> > > way=2E Create a 'mini' bus for the items you want to >isolate=2E >> > >> > If all you want is browno ut protection, a little 2 or 3 AH >battery >> > shoul be more than enough =2E >> > >> > There are other commercial products available that d o the >same >> > thing, but obviously you will pay more=2E >> > >> > Charlie >> > On May 14, 2018, at 7:45 PM, Art Zemon < art@zemon =2Ename >> > > wrote: >> > >> > > > > Sebastien, >> > > >> > > MGL sells the AvioGuard , a DC-to-DC converting power >supply >> > > for isolating the avionics fro m the rest of the aircraft system=2E >It >> > > supports a backup battery =2E Cost would be $450 + the battery=2E >> > > >> > > I am hop ing for a less expensive solution=2E >> > > >> > > -- Art Z=2E >> > > >> > > >> > > On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 7:09 PM, Sebast ien < >cluros@gmail=2Ecom >> > > > wrote: >> > > >> > > > > > > Battery for the EFIS? >Do es MGL >> > > > > > > make a backup battery for your engine >monitor? >> > > > >> > > > On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 4:51 PM, Art Zemon < >> > > > art@zemon=2Ename > wrote : >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > Folk s, >> > > > > >> > > > > I am finally to the point on my project >of >> > > > > starting the engine=2E When I first engage the st arter, voltage >drops so >> > > > > low that my EFIS reboots=2E The EFIS im mediately reboots, less >than 1 >> > > > > second later, but it takes sever al seconds for the engine >instruments >> > > > > to come back online=2E >> > > > > >> > > > > It is a 12 volt system=2E During e ngine >start, the >> > > > > equipment is drawing about 5 amps (other than the starter >motor)=2E I >> > > > > need about 9 volts to keep the EFIS fro m rebooting=2E >> > > > > >> > > > > I am using figure Z-12 with very minor >> > > > > modifications: replaced the ammeter shunts with hall effect >sensors >> > > > > and rearranged the switches a bit=2E You can see my modified >diagram >> > > > > here: engine=2Epdf >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > What would be th e simplest way to fix >this issue? >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon=2Ecom/ >> > > >> > > >> > > "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am >only for >> > > myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel >> > > >> > > > > >> > > >> >> >> -- >> htt ps://CheerfulCurmudgeon=2Ecom/ >> >> "If I am not for myself, who is f or me? And if I am only for >myself, what >> am I? And if not now, when?" H illel >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
From: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 14, 2018
Don't you want a boost converter instead of a buck converter? Ken On 14/05/2018 10:41 PM, Charlie England wrote: > Ooh, good catch! > > Charlie > On May 14, 2018, at 9:13 PM, Robert McCallum > > > wrote: > > Read the specifications carefully as the following statement from > their specs might be an issue. > > "Please note: the negative of input and output wiring cannot be > common ground." > > Bob McC > >> ---------- Original Message ---------- >> From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> >> Date: May 14, 2018 at 9:47 PM >> >> Charlie, >> >> That sounds like exactly what I need: brownout protection for one >> to two seconds. Is this the sort of regulator that I need? >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/DROK-High-Efficiency-Regulator-DC-4-5-30V-to-0-8-28V-12A-Buck-Converter-Const/152990560495 >> >> >> -- Art Z. >> >> >> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Charlie England < >> ceengland7(at)gmail.com > wrote: >> >> Ebay for a 'boot/buck switching regulator' sized for your >> needs (likely way less than$30), and an aux battery sized the >> same way. Create a 'mini' bus for the items you want to isolate. >> >> If all you want is brownout protection, a little 2 or 3 AH >> battery shoul be more than enough. >> >> There are other commercial products available that do the >> same thing, but obviously you will pay more. >> >> Charlie >> On May 14, 2018, at 7:45 PM, Art Zemon < art(at)zemon.name >> > wrote: >> >> Sebastien, >> >> MGL sells the AvioGuard, a DC-to-DC converting power >> supply for isolating the avionics from the rest of the >> aircraft system. It supports a backup battery. Cost would >> be $450 + the battery. >> >> I am hoping for a less expensive solution. >> >> -- Art Z. >> >> >> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 7:09 PM, Sebastien < >> cluros(at)gmail.com > wrote: >> >> Battery for the EFIS? Does MGL make a backup battery >> for your engine monitor? >> >> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 4:51 PM, Art Zemon < >> art(at)zemon.name > wrote: >> >> >> Folks, >> >> I am /finally/ to the point on my project of >> starting the engine. When I first engage the >> starter, voltage drops so low that my EFIS >> reboots. The EFIS immediately reboots, less than >> 1 second later, but it takes several seconds for >> the engine instruments to come back online. >> >> It is a 12 volt system. During engine start, the >> equipment is drawing about 5 amps (other than the >> starter motor). I need about 9 volts to keep the >> EFIS from rebooting. >> >> I am using figure Z-12 with very minor >> modifications: replaced the ammeter shunts with >> hall effect sensors and rearranged the switches a >> bit. You can see my modified diagram here: >> engine.pdf >> >> >> >> What would be the simplest way to fix this issue? >> >> >> >> -- >> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >> >> >> /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only >> for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >> >> /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for >> myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
From: Rick Beebe <rick(at)beebe.org>
Date: May 14, 2018
Eric Page, who's on this list, created a device to protect against this using a large capacitor. He modified an earlier design by Eric Jones. I bought one from him. It works great on my bench. Should be going in the plane in the next week or so. His original email is quoted below: --Rick Im starting a new thread on this topic in case anyone who might be interested missed the recent discussion, here: http://forum.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16768062 To recap, Ive adapted Eric Jones design for a voltage slump eliminator (a device to prevent EFIS/EMS brownout/reboot during engine start) and designed a circuit board for it. The schematic (.PDF) is here: http://forum.matronics.com/download.php?id=44878 An archive (.ZIP) containing the full design files can be downloaded here: https://preview.tinyurl.com/yajod9m6 So far one member of the forum has expressed a desire for me to build one of these for him, so Ive ordered a batch of circuit boards. If anyone else wants a complete unit, please let me know so I can order all of the components at once. You can reply to this thread or contact me directly. The cost should be about $35 each, plus postage to your address. Ill send a PayPal invoice, along with copies of my receipts, once I know the exact amount for each device and I have them ready to mail. Im happy to part with bare circuit boards as well; again, for my cost ($0.55/ea) plus postage. Eric P.S. For anyone seeing this in the future, you can contact me directly to see if I have any circuit boards on hand. The PDF schematic file contains a link to Digi-Key that will load a shopping cart with all necessary components. On 05/14/2018 07:51 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > > Folks, > > I am /finally/to the point on my project of starting the engine. When I > first engage the starter, voltage drops so low that my EFIS reboots. The > EFIS immediately reboots, less than 1 second later, but it takes several > seconds for the engine instruments to come back online. > > It is a 12 volt system. During engine start, the equipment is drawing > about 5 amps (other than the starter motor). I need about 9 volts to > keep the EFIS from rebooting. > > I am using figure Z-12 with very minor modifications: replaced the > ammeter shunts with hall effect sensors and rearranged the switches a > bit. You can see my modified diagram here: engine.pdf > > > What would be the simplest way to fix this issue? > > -- Art Z. > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, > what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 15, 2018
See my 1st answer=2E :-) Boost only woul not be a good idea; that implies a set point higher than alternator voltage=2E =81=A3Charlie=8B O n May 14, 2018, 10:07 PM, at 10:07 PM, C&K wrot e: > > >Don't you want a boost converter instead of a buck converter? >Ken > > On 14/05/2018 10:41 PM, Charlie England wrote: >> Ooh, good catch! >> >> Ch arlie >> On May 14, 2018, at 9:13 PM, Robert McCallum >> > >> wrote: > > >> Read the specifications carefully as the following statement from >> their specs might be an issue=2E >> >> "Please note: the negativ e of input and output wiring cannot be >> common ground=2E" >> >> B ob McC >> >>> ---------- Original Message ---------- >>> From: Art Zemon >>> Date: May 14, 2018 at 9:47 PM >>> >>> Charlie, >>> >>> That sounds like exactly what I need: brownout protect ion for >one >>> to two seconds=2E Is this the sort of regulator that I need? >>> >https://www=2Eebay=2Ecom/itm/DROK-High-Efficiency-Regulator -DC-4-5-30V-to-0-8-28V-12A-Buck-Converter-Const/152990560495 >>> >>> >>> -- Art Z=2E >>> >>> >>> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Charlie Engl and < >>> ceengland7@gmail=2Ecom > wrote : >>> >>> Ebay for a 'boot/buck switching regulator' sized for your >>> needs (likely way less than$30), and an aux battery sized >the >>> same way=2E Create a 'mini' bus for the items you want to >iso late=2E >>> >>> If all you want is brownout protection, a little 2 or 3 AH >>> battery shoul be more than enough=2E >>> >>> Th ere are other commercial products available that do the >>> same th ing, but obviously you will pay more=2E >>> >>> Charlie >>> On May 14, 2018, at 7:45 PM, Art Zemon < art@zemon=2Ename >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Sebastien, >>> >>> MGL sells the AvioGuard, a DC-to-DC converting power >>> supply for isolating the avionics from the rest of the >>> airc raft system=2E It supports a backup battery=2E Cost >would >>> be $450 + the battery=2E >>> >>> I am hoping for a less expensi ve solution=2E >>> >>> -- Art Z=2E >>> >>> >>> On M on, May 14, 2018 at 7:09 PM, Sebastien < >>> cluros@gmail=2Ecom > wrote: >>> >>> Battery for th e EFIS? Does MGL make a backup battery >>> for your engine monitor? >>> >>> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 4:51 PM, Art Zemon < >>> art@zemon=2Ename > wrote: > >> >>> =8B=8B >>> Folks , >>> >>> I am /finally/ to the point on my project of >>> starting the engine=2E When I first engage the >>> starter, voltage drops so low that my EFIS >>> reboots=2E The EFIS immediately reboots, less than >>> 1 second later, but it takes several seconds for >>> the engine instruments to come back online=2E >>> >>> It is a 12 volt system=2E During engine start, the >>> equipment is drawing about 5 amps (other than >the >>> starter motor)=2E I need about 9 volts to keep the >>> EFIS from rebooting=2E >>> >>> I am using figu re Z-12 with very minor >>> modifications: replaced the ammeter shunts with >>> hall effect sensors and rearra nged the switches >a >>> bit=2E You can see my modified diagram here: >>> engine=2Epdf >>> > >>> >>> >>> What would be the simples t way to fix this >issue? >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> h ttps://CheerfulCurmudgeon=2Ecom/ >>> >>> >>> /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am >only >>> for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon=2Ec om/ >>> >>> /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only f or >>> myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/ >> >> > ======== orum - e many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, t ============= WEB FORUMS - ===== dd some info to the Matronics Email List Wiki! atronics=2Ecom =============== Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin=2E ://www=2Ematronics=2Ecom/contribution ======================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl>
Date: May 15, 2018
I would go for this Voltage Slump Eliminator first - a passive device. Switchers must be designed to generate little radiated and conducted interference - see the discussions on usb-charging. Jan de Jong On 5/15/2018 5:19 AM, Rick Beebe wrote: > > Eric Page, who's on this list, created a device to protect against > this using a large capacitor. He modified an earlier design by Eric > Jones. I bought one from him. It works great on my bench. Should be > going in the plane in the next week or so. His original email is > quoted below: > > --Rick > > > Im starting a new thread on this topic in case anyone who might be > interested missed the recent discussion, here: > > http://forum.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16768062 > > To recap, Ive adapted Eric Jones design for a voltage slump > eliminator (a device to prevent EFIS/EMS brownout/reboot during engine > start) and designed a circuit board for it. The schematic (.PDF) is > here: > > http://forum.matronics.com/download.php?id=44878 > > An archive (.ZIP) containing the full design files can be downloaded > here: > > https://preview.tinyurl.com/yajod9m6 > > So far one member of the forum has expressed a desire for me to build > one of these for him, so Ive ordered a batch of circuit boards. If > anyone else wants a complete unit, please let me know so I can order > all of the components at once. You can reply to this thread or > contact me directly. > > The cost should be about $35 each, plus postage to your address. > Ill send a PayPal invoice, along with copies of my receipts, once I > know the exact amount for each device and I have them ready to mail. > > Im happy to part with bare circuit boards as well; again, for my > cost ($0.55/ea) plus postage. > > Eric > > P.S. For anyone seeing this in the future, you can contact me > directly to see if I have any circuit boards on hand. The PDF > schematic file contains a link to Digi-Key that will load a shopping > cart with all necessary components. > > > On 05/14/2018 07:51 PM, Art Zemon wrote: >> >> Folks, >> >> I am /finally/to the point on my project of starting the engine. >> When I first engage the starter, voltage drops so low that my EFIS >> reboots. The EFIS immediately reboots, less than 1 second later, but >> it takes several seconds for the engine instruments to come back online. >> >> It is a 12 volt system. During engine start, the equipment is drawing >> about 5 amps (other than the starter motor). I need about 9 volts to >> keep the EFIS from rebooting. >> >> I am using figure Z-12 with very minor modifications: replaced the >> ammeter shunts with hall effect sensors and rearranged the switches a >> bit. You can see my modified diagram here: engine.pdf >> >> >> >> What would be the simplest way to fix this issue? >> >> -- Art Z. >> >> -- >> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >> >> /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, >> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/ > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
From: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net>
Date: May 15, 2018
Art, I had a similar issue not sure it is related to yours, my grounding strap was connected to the engine case but I forgot to clean the paint of the case, this made for a bad ground (you could feel all the control lines to the engine heated up). Jump the negative pole of your battery to your exhaust and try again, my engine started immediately after that so I did know where to search. Again, not sure it is related to your case but an easy test. Cheers Werner On 15.05.2018 01:51, Art Zemon wrote: > > Folks, > > I am /finally/to the point on my project of starting the engine. When I > first engage the starter, voltage drops so low that my EFIS reboots. The > EFIS immediately reboots, less than 1 second later, but it takes several > seconds for the engine instruments to come back online. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 15, 2018
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
For a more DIY experience: DC/DC Converters | MPJA.COM | | | | | | | | | | | DC/DC Converters | MPJA.COM | | | | On Monday, May 14, 2018 10:09 PM, Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2@sym patico.ca> wrote: Read the specifications carefully as the following statement from their specs might be an issue. "Please note: the negative of input and output wiring cannot be common gro und." Bob McC ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> Date: May 14, 2018 at 9:47 PM Charlie, That sounds like exactly what I need: brownout protection for one to two seconds. Is this the sort of regulator that I need? https://www.ebay.com/i tm/DROK-High-Efficiency-Regulator-DC-4-5-30V-to-0-8-28V-12A-Buck-Converter- Const/152990560495 -- Art Z. On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Charlie England < ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote: Ebay for a 'boot/buck switching regulator' sized for your needs (likely way less than$30), and an aux battery sized the same way. Create a 'mini' b us for the items you want to isolate. If all you want is brownout protection, a little 2 or 3 AH battery shoul be more than enough. There are other commercial products available that do the same thing, bu t obviously you will pay more. Charlie On May 14, 2018, at 7:45 PM, Art Zemon < art(at)zemon.name> wrote : Sebastien, MGL sells the AvioGuard, a DC-to-DC converting power supply for isolatin g the avionics from the rest of the aircraft system. It supports a backup b attery. Cost would be $450 + the battery. I am hoping for a less expensive solution. -- Art Z. On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 7:09 PM, Sebastien < cluros(at)gmail.com> wrote: Battery for the EFIS? Does MGL make a backup battery for your engine moni tor? On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 4:51 PM, Art Zemon < art(at)zemon.name> wrote: =8B=8B Folks, I am finally to the point on my project of starting the engine. When I f irst engage the starter, voltage drops so low that my EFIS reboots. The EFI S immediately reboots, less than 1 second later, but it takes several secon ds for the engine instruments to come back online. It is a 12 volt system. During engine start, the equipment is drawing ab out 5 amps (other than the starter motor). I need about 9 volts to keep the EFIS from rebooting. I am using figure Z-12 with very minor modifications: replaced the ammet er shunts with hall effect sensors and rearranged the switches a bit. You c an see my modified diagram here: engine.pdf What would be the simplest way to fix this issue? -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon. com/ "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel =C2- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 15, 2018
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
Art: The simplest thing that would not cost you a penny is to: Turn the Avionics on AFTER you start the engine. But, I'm guessing that is not the way you want to go. Bob must have some reason why grounds cannot be common. Try his notes second if you do not want to change your starting procedure. Side Note: The 5 Amps you mention on draw are probably the constant current draw and not the peak draw. Just for S&G's consider the peak to be 3 times the constant. Now how would that affect your system? Side Note: What does the Battery voltage drop to when you hit the starter? Some starters post notes that if the voltage drops below 10 VDC the charging system or battery or starter connection should be looked into. The idea of a DC to DC battery backup would work but I do not see why you have to go that elaborate or anywhere that costly. A simple standby battery and a relay that is energized when the Starter Relay is energized just to supply power to the Avionics would work. If you think a mechanical relay would be too slow in transferring power you could use a solid-state relay. As a side benefit the battery could be used as emergency avionics buss power. All that would be needed is a desperate Switch to energizer the Avionics relay. Good Luck OM, Barry On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > =8B=8B > Folks, > > I am *finally* to the point on my project of starting the engine. When I > first engage the starter, voltage drops so low that my EFIS reboots. The > EFIS immediately reboots, less than 1 second later, but it takes several > seconds for the engine instruments to come back online. > > It is a 12 volt system. During engine start, the equipment is drawing > about 5 amps (other than the starter motor). I need about 9 volts to keep > the EFIS from rebooting. > > I am using figure Z-12 with very minor modifications: replaced the ammete r > shunts with hall effect sensors and rearranged the switches a bit. You ca n > see my modified diagram here: engine.pdf > > > What would be the simplest way to fix this issue? > > -- Art Z. > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, wha t > am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: May 15, 2018
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
Barry, The EFIS is my engine instruments. If the EFIS is off (or rebooting) then I do not have an oil pressure gauge. -- Art Z. On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 10:44 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote: > The simplest thing that would not cost you a penny is to: Turn the > Avionics on AFTER you start the engine. > -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: May 15, 2018
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
Joe, Thanks. I think that your circuit will be perfect. I can add a small battery and it doesn't matter a bit whether or not my EFIS runs at 13.2 volts or at 12.7 volts. Cheers, -- Art Z. On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:10 PM, user9253 wrote: > > Here is circuit. A disadvantage is 1/2 volt drop across the Schottky > diode. > But if the aircraft electrical system voltage is 14.2 or higher, it should > be OK. > Diode part number: 747-DSA300i45NA > If the voltage drop across the diode is not desired, normally closed relay > contacts could be connected in parallel with the diode. Energize the relay > with the start push button. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 15, 2018
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
AHHhhhhh Got Ya! Art! Yea, you are right... Get the EFIS to boot and stay Up and Running! You got me thinking Art... I am installing a E.I. CGR 30P in a certified plane, it will be having oil pressure also... I have to solve the same issue as you. Of course I'll be limited with options, I'll have to try the Direct To Battery trick with a relay. Barry On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 5:03 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > Barry, > > The EFIS is my engine instruments. If the EFIS is off (or rebooting) then > I do not have an oil pressure gauge. > > -- Art Z. > > On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 10:44 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote: > >> The simplest thing that would not cost you a penny is to: Turn the >> Avionics on AFTER you start the engine. >> > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what > am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 15, 2018
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
Joe: I like your schematic, what program are you using to draw it? Barry On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 10:10 PM, user9253 wrote: > > Here is circuit. A disadvantage is 1/2 volt drop across the Schottky > diode. > But if the aircraft electrical system voltage is 14.2 or higher, it should > be OK. > Diode part number: 747-DSA300i45NA > If the voltage drop across the diode is not desired, normally closed relay > contacts could be connected in parallel with the diode. Energize the relay > with the start push button. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480130#480130 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/brownout_bat_efis_135.jpg > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 15, 2018
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
Art, I have noticed on a couple dual Dynon installs that while the voltage drop kicks the flight EFIS into reboot, the engine EFIS does not. I would guess this is by design. Have you asked GRT about this problem? It's possible this is something that would be worth their while to patch. On Tue, May 15, 2018, 10:21 PM Art Zemon wrote: > Joe, > > Thanks. I think that your circuit will be perfect. I can add a small > battery and it doesn't matter a bit whether or not my EFIS runs at 13.2 > volts or at 12.7 volts. > > Cheers, > -- Art Z. > > On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:10 PM, user9253 wrote: > >> >> Here is circuit. A disadvantage is 1/2 volt drop across the Schottky >> diode. >> But if the aircraft electrical system voltage is 14.2 or higher, it >> should be OK. >> Diode part number: 747-DSA300i45NA >> If the voltage drop across the diode is not desired, normally closed relay >> contacts could be connected in parallel with the diode. Energize the >> relay >> with the start push button. > > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what > am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Date: May 15, 2018
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
Art Further to the best electric solution you certainly will find to avoid the b rownout, a belt & suspenders solution could be to install a small oil pressu re indicator. At least that was my way to solve the same problem, before I decided to go w ith the TCW backup battery. Cheers Carlos Enviado do meu iPhone No dia 15/05/2018, =C3-s 22:03, Art Zemon escreveu: > Barry, > > The EFIS is my engine instruments. If the EFIS is off (or rebooting) then I do not have an oil pressure gauge. > > -- Art Z. > >> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 10:44 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote: >> The simplest thing that would not cost you a penny is to: Turn the Avio nics on AFTER you start the engine. > > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what a m I? And if not now, when?" Hillel ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Date: May 15, 2018
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
Joe Smart circuit, but will it recharge the backup battery? Carlos No dia 15/05/2018, s 03:10, user9253 escreveu: > > Here is circuit. A disadvantage is 1/2 volt drop across the Schottky diode. > But if the aircraft electrical system voltage is 14.2 or higher, it should be OK. > Diode part number: 747-DSA300i45NA > If the voltage drop across the diode is not desired, normally closed relay > contacts could be connected in parallel with the diode. Energize the relay > with the start push button. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480130#480130 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/brownout_bat_efis_135.jpg > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <mike(at)vision499.com>
Subject: Shower of Sparks
Date: May 15, 2018
I have installed a LOM engine with a Shower of Sparks, 1. How long can I safely keep the unit on (buzzing) while testing it 2. When I turn the motor over and ground the plug to the engine what type of spark or sparks should I expect. 3. Are there any other tests that I can perform. Thanks Mike --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 15, 2018
Subject: Re: Shower of Sparks
Mike: To test the Shower Of Sparks - Disconnect the Starter. You can do this easily by pulling the control wire to the Starter Relay. This way you can activate the Shower Of Sparks (SOS) and LISTEN for the BUZZ and SAFELY not have to worry about a spinning prop. You can also remove the spark plug wire from each of the spark plugs. Do you want to check out the Mag and the Spark Plug wires as well as the SOS? If so here is another TRICK! Go to a automotive store and get the Clear Plastic Spark Plug test light... It has a Neon bulb inside. You hook up the test light to the wires. Re-Connect the control wire on the starter relay and CRANK AWAY. You will see a longer time duration to the spark than if there was NO SOS. And, it will be a nice bright light. Again as compared to a standard Impulse Mag. On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 8:32 PM, wrote: > > I have installed a LOM engine with a Shower of Sparks, > > 1. How long can I safely keep the unit on (buzzing) while testing it > =8BBarry - I never had a over heating problem. I would guess and eas y Minute.=8B > > 2. When I turn the motor over and ground the plug to the engine what type > of spark or sparks should I expect. > =8BBarry - A standard Blueish Spark of Longer Duration.=8B > > 3. Are there any other tests that I can perform. > =8BBarry - See above. =8BBest of Luck,=8B Barry=8B > > > Thanks > > Mike > > > --- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John B <jbsoar(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 15, 2018
Subject: Re: Shower of Sparks
What is being used as a "shower of sparks" for the LOM engine? On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 7:32 PM, wrote: > > I have installed a LOM engine with a Shower of Sparks, > > 1. How long can I safely keep the unit on (buzzing) while testing it > > 2. When I turn the motor over and ground the plug to the engine what type > of spark or sparks should I expect. > > 3. Are there any other tests that I can perform. > > > Thanks > > Mike > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <mike(at)vision499.com>
Subject: Shower of Sparks
Date: May 15, 2018
The standard LOM supplied shower of sparks module that is described on one of Bob=99s Z diagrams, I have it at the hangar so cannot remember the diagram number. Thanks Mike From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John B Sent: May 15, 2018 7:50 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shower of Sparks What is being used as a "shower of sparks" for the LOM engine? On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 7:32 PM, > wrote: > I have installed a LOM engine with a Shower of Sparks, 1. How long can I safely keep the unit on (buzzing) while testing it 2. When I turn the motor over and ground the plug to the engine what type of spark or sparks should I expect. 3. Are there any other tests that I can perform. Thanks Mike --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus - Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au>
Subject: Re: Shower of Sparks
Date: May 16, 2018
Mike, the induction vibrator (AKA starter vibrator) wired to the left Magneto start circuit oscillates at 200Hz, so it simply causes lots of sparks (at a rate of 200 per second, rather than one spark) every time a plug is fired. The 22-25 deg advance breaker is grounded in favour of the retard breaker firing at TDC to avoid kickback. Its hard to harm the starter vibrator and youd be hard pressed to see sparks at a rate of 200Hz, but the engine (especially a six) is a whole lot easier to start when the circuit is working! Stu > On 16 May 2018, at 10:32, wrote: > > > I have installed a LOM engine with a Shower of Sparks, > > 1. How long can I safely keep the unit on (buzzing) while testing it > > 2. When I turn the motor over and ground the plug to the engine what type of spark or sparks should I expect. > > 3. Are there any other tests that I can perform. > > > Thanks > > Mike > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 16, 2018
Barry, I used a program called Express.sch It is free and can be downloaded here: https://www.expresspcb.com The program has two parts, the schematic part and the circuit board part. Use teh schematic part: express.sch After drawing your diagram, click FILE, EXPORT SCHEMATIC IMAGE. The only choice for saving is as a BMP file. Open the bmp file with "PAINT", a program that is built into all versions of Windows. Crop the picture and then save as a JPG file. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480173#480173 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 16, 2018
Carlos, I think the aux battery will be recharged. Normally it will only be used for a few seconds during engine cranking, so it will run down very little. A Schottky diode will drop 0.4 - 0.5 volts when conducting 5 amps. If the aircraft electrical system operates at 14.2 volts, then 14.2 - 0.5 = 13.7 volts. That is enough to recharge a battery, albeit slowly. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480174#480174 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 16, 2018
Art, The Schottky diode 747-DSA300i45NA that I mentioned earlier is really overkill for this application. Smaller Schottky diodes are available for less than $1, although not as robust. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480175#480175 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 16, 2018
Below is an untried circuit for someone who likes to experiment. Instead of using a heavy lead acid battery, it uses two flashlight batteries in series. Depending on the load, and considering that the batteries will only be used for a few seconds at a time, size AA or C or D can be tried. The alkaline batteries will add 3 volts to the aircraft main battery voltage during engine cranking. The diode prevents the alkaline batteries from being shorted out. The diode also keeps the load energized for the few milliseconds while the relay contacts are in transition. The normally open relay contacts connect the alkaline batteries during engine start. After starting the engine, the normally closed relay contacts short out the diode during normal operation to give full voltage to the load. If the relay coil or N.C. contacts fail, the EFIS will still get power through the diode. Before I get flamed, I am not necessarily recommending this circuit, just offering it to experimenters. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480176#480176 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/brownout_alkaline_bat_112.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 16, 2018
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
Joe: Thank you very much for the information. I'll give it a try. I hope it is as intuitive as much as I am software challenged ;-) Barry On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 11:08 AM, user9253 wrote: > > Barry, > I used a program called Express.sch > It is free and can be downloaded here: > https://www.expresspcb.com > The program has two parts, the schematic part and the circuit board part. > Use teh schematic part: express.sch > After drawing your diagram, click FILE, EXPORT SCHEMATIC IMAGE. > The only choice for saving is as a BMP file. > Open the bmp file with "PAINT", a program that is built into all versions > of Windows. > Crop the picture and then save as a JPG file. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480173#480173 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 16, 2018
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
What would be wrong with throwing a big capacity directly across the power and ground as close to the EIS as you can? You gave 5A as the current draw for the e-bus, I doubt the EIS is drawing m ore than one.=C2- The cap will need to be large enough to make up the dif ference between the voltage required and where it drops to during the 15 se conds of cranking.=C2- Part of the caps electrons will back feed to the s tarter, but that path has the resistance of a lot of connections and thinne r wires.=C2- Plus, it won't be a direct short to ground.=C2- It has to compete with another source pumping electrons into the circuit (the battery ).=C2- The cap will get topped off as soon as you stop cranking. Just make sure to use a slow blow fuse and be done with it. On Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:09 PM, FLYaDIVE wrot e: Joe: Thank you very much for the information. I'll give it a try.=C2- I hope it is as intuitive as much as I am softwar e challenged ;-) Barry On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 11:08 AM, user9253 wrote: Barry, I used a program called Express.sch It is free and can be downloaded here: https://www.expresspcb.com The program has two parts, the schematic part and the circuit board part. Use teh schematic part: express.sch After drawing your diagram, click FILE, EXPORT SCHEMATIC IMAGE. The only choice for saving is as a BMP file. Open the bmp file with "PAINT", a program that is built into all versions o f Windows. Crop the picture and then save as a JPG file. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/ viewtopic.php?p=480173#480173 ==== ==================== ========== = - Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.co m/ Navigator?AeroElectric-List ==== ==================== ========== = FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com ==== ==================== ========== = WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com ==== ==================== ========== = b Site - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ contribution ==== ==================== ========== = ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl>
Date: May 16, 2018
The little device by Eric Jones & Eric Page does this in an organized manner and with inexpensive parts. No switching, no batteries. Give it a try. Jan de Jong On 5/16/2018 8:05 PM, Ernest Christley wrote: > What would be wrong with throwing a big capacity directly across the > power and ground as close to the EIS as you can? > > You gave 5A as the current draw for the e-bus, I doubt the EIS is > drawing more than one. The cap will need to be large enough to make > up the difference between the voltage required and where it drops to > during the 15 seconds of cranking. Part of the caps electrons will > back feed to the starter, but that path has the resistance of a lot of > connections and thinner wires. Plus, it won't be a direct short to > ground. It has to compete with another source pumping electrons into > the circuit (the battery). The cap will get topped off as soon as you > stop cranking. > > Just make sure to use a slow blow fuse and be done with it. > > > On Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:09 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: > > > Joe: > > Thank you very much for the information. > > I'll give it a try. I hope it is as intuitive as much as I am > software challenged ;-) > > Barry > > > On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 11:08 AM, user9253 > wrote: > > > > > Barry, > I used a program called Express.sch > It is free and can be downloaded here: > https://www.expresspcb.com > The program has two parts, the schematic part and the circuit > board part. > Use teh schematic part: express.sch > After drawing your diagram, click FILE, EXPORT SCHEMATIC IMAGE. > The only choice for saving is as a BMP file. > Open the bmp file with "PAINT", a program that is built into all > versions of Windows. > Crop the picture and then save as a JPG file. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/ viewtopic.php?p=480173#480173 > <http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480173#480173> > > > ==== ============================== = > - > Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ==== ============================== = > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > ==== ============================== = > WIKI - > errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > ==== ============================== = > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ > contribution > ==== ============================== = > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 16, 2018
> What would be wrong with throwing a big capacity directly across the power and ground as close to the EIS as you can? That solution sounds reasonable in theory. The problem is that the starter motor would quickly drain the capacitor without a diode to block reverse current. Another problem is that one big capacitor rated at 15 volts or more would be impractically humongous. The solution is to use several capacitors, each rated at less voltage. Eric Jones & Eric Page have already done the engineering. Read this thread about the Deslumpifier: http://forum.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477147&sid'd0d83508c5b8d07bf0ea2643e41201 -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480181#480181 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Date: May 16, 2018
What Tim and others have suggested, TCWTech stuff, will fix it. I used the power stabilizer to fix this problem in my installation - I have (3) EFIS units. On 5/14/2018 10:13 PM, Tim Olson wrote: > > Check out TCWTechs stuff. They have both backup batteries, and > a power stabilizer that they offer that would do the trick. > > http://www.tcwtech.com/ > > > Tim > > > On 5/14/2018 7:38 PM, Art Zemon wrote: >> Sebastien, >> >> MGL sells the AvioGuard, a DC-to-DC converting power supply for >> isolating the avionics from the rest of the aircraft system. It >> supports a backup battery. Cost would be $450 + the battery. >> >> I am hoping for a less expensive solution. >> >> -- Art Z. >> >> >> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 7:09 PM, Sebastien > > wrote: >> >> Battery for the EFIS? Does MGL make a backup battery for your engine >> monitor? >> >> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 4:51 PM, Art Zemon > > wrote: >> >> >> Folks, >> >> I am /finally/to the point on my project of starting the >> engine. When I first engage the starter, voltage drops so low >> that my EFIS reboots. The EFIS immediately reboots, less than 1 >> second later, but it takes several seconds for the engine >> instruments to come back online. >> >> It is a 12 volt system. During engine start, the equipment is >> drawing about 5 amps (other than the starter motor). I need >> about 9 volts to keep the EFIS from rebooting. >> >> I am using figure Z-12 with very minor modifications: replaced >> the ammeter shunts with hall effect sensors and rearranged the >> switches a bit. You can see my modified diagram here: engine.pdf >> >> >> What would be the simplest way to fix this issue? >> >> >> >> -- >> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >> >> /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, >> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/ > > 999 --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl>
Date: May 17, 2018
The 2 attached (pilfered) figures aim to show when the EFIS reboot occurs in the engine start sequence. The deep voltage drawdown where the EFIS reboots is resolved as soon as the starter motor picks up speed. The "deslumping" only needs to hold up the voltage for a few hundred ms. Jan de Jong ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 17, 2018
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
Jan so would a relay then be fast enough to catch the lump? Looking at the figures it would appear that the big spike is of very short duration. Best... Bob Verwey 082 331 2727 On 17 May 2018 at 09:59, Jan de Jong wrote: > The 2 attached (pilfered) figures aim to show when the EFIS reboot occurs > in the engine start sequence. > The deep voltage drawdown where the EFIS reboots is resolved as soon as > the starter motor picks up speed. > The "deslumping" only needs to hold up the voltage for a few hundred ms. > > Jan de Jong > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
From: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl>
Date: May 17, 2018
It is a race with the relay and solenoid that enables the starter motor. A small relay will win I would think. But I would prefer the "deslumpifier" of Eric Jones that Eric Page elaborated. No moving parts, no active electronics, no batteries. Jan de Jong On 5/17/2018 10:21 AM, Bob Verwey wrote: > Jan so would a relay then be fast enough to catch the lump? Looking at > the figures it would appear that the big spike is of very short duration. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
Date: May 17, 2018
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
Hi Jan, Which eric jones product are you talking about? I've been all over his site http://www.periheliondesign.com/ and can't find anything. I just bought 4 a123 18650 lifepo4 batteries and a battery holder I plan to wire into my EIS and EFIS, but if there is a more elegant solution from Eric I'm interested. Mickey Coggins On Thu, 17 May 2018 at 11:20, Jan de Jong wrote: > It is a race with the relay and solenoid that enables the starter motor. A > small relay will win I would think. > But I would prefer the "deslumpifier" of Eric Jones that Eric Page > elaborated. No moving parts, no active electronics, no batteries. > > Jan de Jong > > On 5/17/2018 10:21 AM, Bob Verwey wrote: > > Jan so would a relay then be fast enough to catch the lump? Looking at the > figures it would appear that the big spike is of very short duration. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 17, 2018
Even though Eric Jones designed and built a prototype, he does not sell the deslumpifier. Last I heard, he does not intend to either. Maybe he would if the demand was big enough. Eric Page built a few that had more capacitance. He sold them to AeroElectric members at cost for the parts. That was really nice of him and he did a professional job. He probably has the schematic and parts list and gerber files that are necessary to order the PC boards. With that information, a person could order the parts and make their own deslumpifier. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480215#480215 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
From: "Eric Page" <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: May 17, 2018
I do still have circuit boards available for this project. Ordinarily Id be happy to assemble another one, but Im just starting to build a house and my free time is extremely limited. If you review the first couple of posts in this thread... http://forum.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477147 ...youll find all the information about it. A link to a Digi-Key shopping cart populated with all of the required components is given on the schematic diagram. A few notes: - This is a brownout/reboot preventer only; its not a source of emergency power for avionics. For that, the TCW units or a similar DIY setup are a better choice. - Youll need a fairly stout soldering iron to successfully solder the large diodes. A soldering gun would be a good idea if you have one. All other components are solderable with normal techniques. The diodes are installed with their ring marking (cathode) facing up. - Its a good idea to apply some sort of adhesive around the base of the capacitors and large resistor heatsink to provide mechanical support. I used Shoe Goo on the boards that I assembled. - Id recommend using the plastic box as a mounting base for the circuit board and leave the lid off. This will help to keep things cool while the capacitors are charging. Let me know if you want a PCB. Ill sell what I have left at my cost: $0.55 ea. + postage and PayPal fee. Ill include the M2.5 screws needed to mount it in the box. Eric Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480216#480216 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <mike(at)vision499.com>
Subject: Shower of Sparks
Date: May 17, 2018
Thank you very much for the help, The spark plug test light worked like a charm, thanks for the good idea Keep well Mike From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr ic-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE Sent: May 15, 2018 6:05 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shower of Sparks Mike: To test the Shower Of Sparks - Disconnect the Starter. You can do this easily by pulling the control wire to the Starter Relay. This way you can activate the Shower Of Sparks (SOS) and LISTEN for the BUZ Z and SAFELY not have to worry about a spinning prop. You can also remove the spark plug wire from each of the spark plugs. Do you want to check out the Mag and the Spark Plug wires as well as the SO S? If so here is another TRICK! Go to a automotive store and get the Clear Plastic Spark Plug test light... It has a Neon bulb inside. You hook up the test light to the wires. Re-Connect the control wire on the starter relay and CRANK AWAY. You will see a longer time duration to the spark than if there was NO SOS. And, it will be a nice bright light. Again as compared to a standard Impuls e Mag. On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 8:32 PM, > wrote: ision499.com> > I have installed a LOM engine with a Shower of Sparks, 1. How long can I safely keep the unit on (buzzing) while testing it =8BBarry - I never had a over heating problem. I would guess and eas y Minute.=8B 2. When I turn the motor over and ground the plug to the engine what type o f spark or sparks should I expect. =8BBarry - A standard Blueish Spark of Longer Duration.=8B 3. Are there any other tests that I can perform. =8BBarry - See above. =8BBest of Luck,=8B Barry=8B Thanks Mike --- --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 17, 2018
Subject: Re: Shower of Sparks
Mike: You are quite welcome. Did you notice how long the spark lasted? Way longer than just a Mag spark. Easy test. Barry On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 11:19 PM, wrote: > Thank you very much for the help, > > > The spark plug test light worked like a charm, thanks for the good idea > > > Keep well > > > Mike > > > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: > owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *FLYaDIVE > *Sent:* May 15, 2018 6:05 PM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Shower of Sparks > > > Mike: > > > To test the Shower Of Sparks - > > Disconnect the Starter. > > You can do this easily by pulling the control wire to the Starter Relay. > > This way you can activate the Shower Of Sparks (SOS) and LISTEN for the > BUZZ and SAFELY not have to worry about a spinning prop. > > You can also remove the spark plug wire from each of the spark plugs. > > Do you want to check out the Mag and the Spark Plug wires as well as the > SOS? > > If so here is another TRICK! > > Go to a automotive store and get the Clear Plastic Spark Plug test > light... It has a Neon bulb inside. > > You hook up the test light to the wires. > > Re-Connect the control wire on the starter relay and CRANK AWAY. > > You will see a longer time duration to the spark than if there was NO SO S. > > And, it will be a nice bright light. Again as compared to a standard > Impulse Mag. > > > On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 8:32 PM, wrote: > > > I have installed a LOM engine with a Shower of Sparks, > > 1. How long can I safely keep the unit on (buzzing) while testing it > > =8BBarry - I never had a over heating problem. I would guess and e asy > Minute.=8B > > > 2. When I turn the motor over and ground the plug to the engine what type > of spark or sparks should I expect. > > =8BBarry - A standard Blueish Spark of Longer Duration.=8B > > > 3. Are there any other tests that I can perform. > > =8BBarry - See above. > > > =8BBest of Luck,=8B > > > Barry=8B > > > Thanks > > Mike > > > --- > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-3200137601015323261_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 1-10 (2-10) toggle switch
From: "JOHN TIPTON" <jmtipton(at)btopenworld.com>
Date: May 18, 2018
Hi Guys I have a couple of (S700 series) toggle switches designated 1-10, from using my volt/ohm meter it appears to operate as a 2-10 - is this correct - in the AeroElectric Connection (my edition anyway) list of S700 toggle switches, it does not mention a 1-10 anywhere Clarification welcome Regards John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480223#480223 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Date: May 18, 2018
I am glad to see that there is great interest in the deslumpifier, and that Eric Page has made these available. I don't intent to sell these. Too many other things to do. BTW: There are BIG Supercaps that help start diesel engines in big trucks, and could in airplanes, too. So it really is industrial technology. Eric M. Jones PerihelionDesign.com -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480224#480224 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 18, 2018
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: 1-10 (2-10) toggle switch
At 07:58 AM 5/18/2018, you wrote: > > >Hi Guys > >I have a couple of (S700 series) toggle switches designated 1-10, >from using my volt/ohm meter it appears to operate as a 2-10 - is >this correct - in the AeroElectric Connection (my edition anyway) >list of S700 toggle switches, it does not mention a 1-10 anywhere The "1" indicates a SINGLE pole switch that will have only 3 terminals. "2" is a DOUBLE pole device with 6 terminals. Emacs! Emacs! The dash-10 functionality REQUIRES two poles, hence there can be no such thing as a 1-10 switch. I suspect that your switch has been marked in error. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: VHF antenna in the tail
From: GTH <gilles.thesee(at)free.fr>
Date: May 20, 2018
/Le 23/12/2017 01:26, Robert L. Nuckolls, III a crit: / > / > Can you describe the physical configuration of > the vertical fin vis-a-vis the empennage? Is > the vertical fin detachable? > > I presume the antenna, once installed, will > forever more be inaccessible for tweeking? / Hi Bob and all, Reviving the antenna-in-tail subject, as the project fuselage is now assembled. Bob mentionned a promising "bazooka" configuration for the antenna, as the tail is too narrow to allow for a regular ground plane. Here are some answers to your questions : The entire fuselage is carbon. The vertical fin is integral with the fuselage but is made of glass for the installation of the antenna. The fin height is ~ 0.9 m (35") while the carbon tail at the base is only 0.18 m (7") wide. The base of the antenna will be accessible via the tail cone aperture, and crawling into the fuselage will permit limited access. I was considering installing the radiating element in a plastic tube in the fin, so that the antenna may be easily inserted and removed. Any suggestions as to how to devise a reasonably efficient comm antenna in the tail ? Thanks in advance, -- Best regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 20, 2018
Subject: Re: VHF antenna in the tail
Giles: You solved half of the antenna issue by making the vertical stab out of fiberglass. The second issue is: What is the Torque Tube of the rudder made out of? If it is aluminum then you have a Blanketing issue as it will mess up the radiation pattern of the antenna. The third issue is you will need at least a 1/4 wave length Ground-plane made out of a conductive material... Aluminum or copper. >From the looks of the empennage you do not have enough area to have a ground-plane. So, what are your options: The most logical will also probably be the easiest - Install two home-brew antennas in the tips of the Horizontal Sab or the tips of the Elevator and co-phase them. Of course they will be horizontally phased as compared to most other antennas out there but, that is a minor inconvenience. Consider ALL those bent 1/4 wave belly mounted antennas that are bent over - - - they still work. Here is a simple co-phased feed line: http://www.jonfinley.com/hobbies/harness.html I would use BNC connectors as apposed to PL & SO connectors. I also totally dislike CRIMP connectors. The solder ones work better and do not cut into the COAX - - EVER! Just work out the math for the frequency you wish to use. Barry On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 7:43 AM, GTH wrote: > > *Le 23/12/2017 =C3- 01:26, Robert L. Nuckolls, III a =C3=A9crit : * > > > * Can you describe the physical configuration of the vertical fin > vis-a-vis the empennage? Is the vertical fin detachable? I presume th e > antenna, once installed, will forever more be inaccessible for tweeking ? > * > > > Hi Bob and all, > > Reviving the antenna-in-tail subject, as the project fuselage is now > assembled. > > Bob mentionned a promising "bazooka" configuration for the antenna, as th e > tail is too narrow to allow for a regular ground plane. > > Here are some answers to your questions : > The entire fuselage is carbon. The vertical fin is integral with the > fuselage but is made of glass for the installation of the antenna. > The fin height is ~ 0.9 m (35") while the carbon tail at the base is only > 0.18 m (7") wide. > > > The base of the antenna will be accessible via the tail cone aperture, an d > crawling into the fuselage will permit limited access. > I was considering installing the radiating element in a plastic tube in > the fin, so that the antenna may be easily inserted and removed. > > Any suggestions as to how to devise a reasonably efficient comm antenna i n > the tail ? > > Thanks in advance, > > > -- > Best regards, > Gilles > http://contrails.free.fr > http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Timothy Meyer <tgmeyerster(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 20, 2018
Subject: Re: VHF antenna in the tail
Here is a link to Jim Wier of RST Engineering information of aircraft antennas in fiberglass airplanes and fiberglass airplane components. http://www.rstengineering.com/rst/products/plasticplaneantenna/plasticplane antenna.htm I've heard Jim talk st Oshkosh numerous times. Tim Meyer On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 6:55 AM GTH wrote: > > *Le 23/12/2017 =C3- 01:26, Robert L. Nuckolls, III a =C3=A9crit : * > > > * Can you describe the physical configuration of the vertical fin > vis-a-vis the empennage? Is the vertical fin detachable? I presume th e > antenna, once installed, will forever more be inaccessible for tweeking ? > * > > > Hi Bob and all, > > Reviving the antenna-in-tail subject, as the project fuselage is now > assembled. > > Bob mentionned a promising "bazooka" configuration for the antenna, as th e > tail is too narrow to allow for a regular ground plane. > > Here are some answers to your questions : > The entire fuselage is carbon. The vertical fin is integral with the > fuselage but is made of glass for the installation of the antenna. > The fin height is ~ 0.9 m (35") while the carbon tail at the base is only > 0.18 m (7") wide. > > > The base of the antenna will be accessible via the tail cone aperture, an d > crawling into the fuselage will permit limited access. > I was considering installing the radiating element in a plastic tube in > the fin, so that the antenna may be easily inserted and removed. > > Any suggestions as to how to devise a reasonably efficient comm antenna i n > the tail ? > > Thanks in advance, > > > -- > Best regards, > Gilles > http://contrails.free.fr > http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: VHF antenna in the tail
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 20, 2018
I would try a 1/4 wave antenna with ground plane. Of course the small diameter tail is not the ideal shape and size for a ground plane. But it might be good enough. Use 4 or 6 copper tape radials (or aluminum strips) glued to the inside of the tail cone. Or it might be easier to install a thin sheet of aluminum glued to the inside surface of the tail cone. If that does not work out, then try the bazooka antenna. No antenna is perfect. Be satisfied with good enough. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480242#480242 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Radio or Television Tower Buzz
From: "mike>bentley" <mikeeeb(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 20, 2018
When flying in the vicinity of radio or TV towers, I get a constant buzz or static over the radio. Sometimes I can hear the conversation or music from the station, but just barely. It seems to start when I'm within a 1/2 to 1/4 mile from a tower. Anyone else have this type of issue or resolved this type of issue? -------- Mike Bentley Joplin, MO N5498B Kitfox Model 4-1200 Jabiru 2200 #438 Rotec Aerosport LCH Heads Prince Prop (64 x 34) Ellison EFS-2 Throttle Body Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480244#480244 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: May 20, 2018
Subject: Re: VHF antenna in the tail
Giles, There are a number of comm antenna solution that do not require a ground plane. They are produced by Archer and by Advanced Aircraft Electronics. These are center-tap, full-wave antennas of various styles, shapes and prices. See =94 http://www.aircraftspruce.com/search/search.php?cache=75660d9834ea34b12f c9146878e6443b&filter=&perpage=all&pageno=1 <http://www.aircraftspruce.com/search/search.php?cache=75660d9834ea34b12 fc9146878e6443b&filter=&perpage=all&pageno=1> They are hidden amongst the various other antennas on the page. In addition there are plans available on the net to craft your own copper tape/strip full wave antennas that could be used on the stern post. I have used both the AAE and Archer antennas in composite aircraft and I have built a copper strip antenna for use with a base radio all with excellent results. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (100 hrs). Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP, Hercules Prop. 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger(at)mac.com On May 20, 2018, at 6:43 AM, GTH wrote: Le 23/12/2017 =C3- 01:26, Robert L. Nuckolls, III a =C3=A9crit : > > Can you describe the physical configuration of > the vertical fin vis-a-vis the empennage? Is > the vertical fin detachable? > > I presume the antenna, once installed, will > forever more be inaccessible for tweeking? Hi Bob and all, Reviving the antenna-in-tail subject, as the project fuselage is now assembled. Bob mentionned a promising "bazooka" configuration for the antenna, as the tail is too narrow to allow for a regular ground plane. Here are some answers to your questions : The entire fuselage is carbon. The vertical fin is integral with the fuselage but is made of glass for the installation of the antenna. The fin height is ~ 0.9 m (35") while the carbon tail at the base is only 0.18 m (7") wide. The base of the antenna will be accessible via the tail cone aperture, and crawling into the fuselage will permit limited access. I was considering installing the radiating element in a plastic tube in the fin, so that the antenna may be easily inserted and removed. Any suggestions as to how to devise a reasonably efficient comm antenna in the tail ? Thanks in advance, -- Best regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Radio or Television Tower Buzz
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: May 20, 2018
What is happening is that the high power from the towers is exciting one of the oscillators in one of your radios. What is most common, especially with older 121.5 ELTs is for their transmit oscillator to be activated by the high power RF from the towers, generating a weak white noise signal that breaks squelch on your com radio. I used to have that problem with a previous aircraft, where there are about 15 high power towers on a mountain a few miles south of the Phoenix Class B and in line with the VFR transition through the Class B. Communications with approach control while flying that transition would become very difficult. Newer 121.5 ELTs and 406 ELTs are better shielded for that. Also, moving a com antenna from top of fuselage to belly can help isolate the ELT from the com antenna. On 5/20/2018 8:38 AM, mike>bentley wrote: > --> Avionics-List message posted by: "mike>bentley" > > When flying in the vicinity of radio or TV towers, I get a constant buzz or static over the radio. Sometimes I can hear the conversation or music from the station, but just barely. It seems to start when I'm within a 1/2 to 1/4 mile from a tower. > > Anyone else have this type of issue or resolved this type of issue? > > -------- > Mike Bentley > Joplin, MO > N5498B > Kitfox Model 4-1200 > Jabiru 2200 #438 > Rotec Aerosport LCH Heads > Prince Prop (64 x 34) > Ellison EFS-2 Throttle Body > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480245#480245 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Radio or Television Tower Buzz
From: "mike>bentley" <mikeeeb(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 20, 2018
Thanks Kelli, I have a 406mhz elt with the antenna mounted inside the fuselage and comm antenna mounted on top of the fuselage. The elt antenna is approximately 18" below and 12" forward of the comm antenna. The elt antenna is much easier to relocate than the comm. Would moving the elt antenna farther away help? -------- Mike Bentley Joplin, MO N5498B Kitfox Model 4-1200 Jabiru 2200 #438 Rotec Aerosport LCH Heads Prince Prop (64 x 34) Ellison EFS-2 Throttle Body Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480249#480249 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Radio or Television Tower Buzz
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 20, 2018
On 5/20/2018 10:33 AM, mike>bentley wrote: > > When flying in the vicinity of radio or TV towers, I get a constant buzz or static over the radio. Sometimes I can hear the conversation or music from the station, but just barely. It seems to start when I'm within a 1/2 to 1/4 mile from a tower. > > Anyone else have this type of issue or resolved this type of issue? > > -------- > Mike Bentley > Joplin, MO > N5498B > Kitfox Model 4-1200 > Jabiru 2200 #438 > Rotec Aerosport LCH Heads > Prince Prop (64 x 34) > Ellison EFS-2 Throttle Body Flying within 1/4 mile of a tower? My solution would be the He Haw (TV show, for uninitiated) solution: 'If it hurts when you do that, don't do that!' Especially in the case of towers, just don't do that. Charlie (Your issue is not an uncommon problem within a few miles of high power transmitters, as someone else has said.) --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Radio or Television Tower Buzz
From: "mike>bentley" <mikeeeb(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 20, 2018
We have several towers in the vicinity of our airport. It can be occasionally annoying depending on the direction you're going to or coming from. -------- Mike Bentley Joplin, MO N5498B Kitfox Model 4-1200 Jabiru 2200 #438 Rotec Aerosport LCH Heads Prince Prop (64 x 34) Ellison EFS-2 Throttle Body Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480251#480251 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 20, 2018
Subject: Re: Radio or Television Tower Buzz
Mike: Very Interesting.... Our plane radios transmit and receive in AM. TV video is AM while their audio is FM. AM land based radio shows are at a frequency well, well below our aviation frequencies. So... Something else must be happening if you are receiving and Hearing Voices. I can understand static and buzzing, just not the voices? Start Simple and work up from their. Simple: Check the GROUNDS on your radios and antennas. You CANNOT check Grounds by LQQKing at them. You MUST open the connection, Clean the connection and replace or ADD (if missing) an Internal Star Washer, then Tighten the connection. Getting a bit more complicated you can build a Band Pass Filter. This would work if the interference was a few harmonics away from from our frequencies. If you can: Drive to the radio/TV stations and bring a Hand Held aviation radio and see if you can hear them when right next to them. You - May even talk to the station engineer. And as a last resort, report the station to the FCC. BUT Only if your test with the Hand Held proves true. Barry On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 11:33 AM, mike>bentley wrote: > mikeeeb(at)gmail.com> > > When flying in the vicinity of radio or TV towers, I get a constant buzz > or static over the radio. Sometimes I can hear the conversation or music > from the station, but just barely. It seems to start when I'm within a 1/2 > to 1/4 mile from a tower. > > Anyone else have this type of issue or resolved this type of issue? > > -------- > Mike Bentley > Joplin, MO > N5498B > Kitfox Model 4-1200 > Jabiru 2200 #438 > Rotec Aerosport LCH Heads > Prince Prop (64 x 34) > Ellison EFS-2 Throttle Body > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480244#480244 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Radio or Television Tower Buzz
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: May 20, 2018
I don't know if you would gain improvement or not, but generally I like to have at least 2 ft between com antennas, more if I can get it. The ELT is in same frequency spectrum as com, so interaction is mostly a function of distance. Before doing anything, the easy test is to simply disconnect the antenna cable from the ELT and go fly near the offending towers. You will know right away if the problem is reduced or not. Your com radio(s) may be interfered with independent of the ELT. Most broadcast towers are close in frequency, either below or above the com frequency band. On 5/20/2018 9:15 AM, mike>bentley wrote: > > Thanks Kelly, > > I have a 406mhz elt with the antenna mounted inside the fuselage and comm antenna mounted on top of the fuselage. The elt antenna is approximately 18" below and 12" forward of the comm antenna. The elt antenna is much easier to relocate than the comm. Would moving the elt antenna farther away help? > > -------- > Mike Bentley > Joplin, MO > N5498B > Kitfox Model 4-1200 > Jabiru 2200 #438 > Rotec Aerosport LCH Heads > Prince Prop (64 x 34) > Ellison EFS-2 Throttle Body > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480249#480249 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 20, 2018
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: New toy . . .
For those of you who suffer from quantitative OCD like I do, there is a class of measurement tool that has trickled down in price to where us po' folk can afford them. GPS disciplined signal sources can exploit the extra-ordinary time-keeping features of the GPS system to produce accurate reference signals with accuracies/stabilities out to a buckets-full-of-zeros. https://goo.gl/B4hqTm I've been eyeing these for several years but finally yielded to temptation with this puppy on eBay https://goo.gl/zVviDZ With this device driving the 10MHz reference port on my 40 year old HP signal generator, proving legality of the radios on our emergency services hand-helds and trucks is a no-brainer. You may have to mount an antenna outside your facility with good sky view . . . beyond that, these things are plug-n-play. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 20, 2018
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: VHF antenna in the tail
A >The base of the antenna will be accessible via the tail cone >aperture, and crawling into the fuselage will permit limited access. >I was considering installing the radiating element in a plastic tube >in the fin, so that the antenna may be easily inserted and removed. > >Any suggestions as to how to devise a reasonably efficient comm >antenna in the tail ? Assuming my mental image of your configuration is accurate, consider the following. Terminating the antenna coax in a BNC cable connector. Then use a BNC chassis connector to make the mechanical transition to the antenna and "ground planes". The radiating portion of the antenna obviously needs to extend up the tube. I'd go for a chunk of RG400 with the outer jacket and removed from about 2" of the 'antenna' segment. http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/TailCone_Antenna/ Push shields back hard exposing center conductor http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/TailCone_Antenna/ Cut off center conductor http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/TailCone_Antenna/ Stretch the braids out and 'tin' the last 1/4" or so with solder. http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/TailCone_Antenna/ Mount chassis BNC connector to 'ground plane'. Suggest copper sheet, 1/2" minimum to as wide as you can fit into the tail cone. The chassis connector can be spot-soldered to copper sheet. http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/TailCone_Antenna/ Repeat on opposite side . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/TailCone_Antenna/ If copper sheet is not readily available, aluminum can be used. If the aluminum option is selected, use the star-washer supplied with the connector to improve electrical interface with the ground-plane. The 'radials' are 1/4-wave (24") extending forward on each side of tailcone. http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/TailCone_Antenna/ If you have access to an antenna analyzer (MFJ259 or similar), you can survey the installed antenna for resonance. I suspect you'll find that it resonates a bit low in frequency due to proximity effects of the rudder post. Trim antenna 1/4" at a time until SWR minimizes at 126.5 MHz. If post installation evaluation is impractical or impossible, then shorten the antenna by about 5% . . . make it 23 inches. Does this look 'doable' on your project? The photos above have been posted at . . . https://goo.gl/9NaAK1 Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: VHF antenna in the tail
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 20, 2018
Bob, it is not clear from the photo, but is the 23" antenna braid soldered to the center pin on the BNC chassis connector? I assume coax is used for the radiating element instead of a wire because the coax is fatter and will give a wider bandwidth than, say, a 14 awg wire. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480260#480260 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 20, 2018
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: VHF antenna in the tail
At 03:30 PM 5/20/2018, you wrote: > >Bob, it is not clear from the photo, but is the 23" antenna braid >soldered to the center pin on the BNC chassis connector? Yes. The center conductor in the radiator is not a participant in the design. > I assume coax is used for the radiating element instead of a wire > because the coax is fatter and will give a wider bandwidth than, > say, a 14 awg wire. The design goal is to make a flexure-resistant connection between the connector and the radiator. The dual-shield configuration on RG400 offers an attractive solution for achieving this goal . . . leaving it 1/4-wave long finishes out the radiator with a single soldered joint. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Pengilly" <Peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Subject: VHF antenna in the tail
Date: May 20, 2018
Have you considered one of these? http://www.dolba.de/antennenloesungen/funk-antenne-bd5/ Fitted to many German gliders, bonded to the fin structure, most how have glass fiber fins to allow VHF, txpdr & flarm antennas all to be hidden inside. Peter From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com On Behalf Of GTH Sent: 20 May 2018 12:43 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: VHF antenna in the tail Le 23/12/2017 =E0 01:26, Robert L. Nuckolls, III a =E9crit : Can you describe the physical configuration of the vertical fin vis-a-vis the empennage? Is the vertical fin detachable? I presume the antenna, once installed, will forever more be inaccessible for tweeking? Hi Bob and all, Reviving the antenna-in-tail subject, as the project fuselage is now assembled. Bob mentionned a promising "bazooka" configuration for the antenna, as the tail is too narrow to allow for a regular ground plane. Here are some answers to your questions : The entire fuselage is carbon. The vertical fin is integral with the fuselage but is made of glass for the installation of the antenna. The fin height is ~ 0.9 m (35") while the carbon tail at the base is only 0.18 m (7") wide. The base of the antenna will be accessible via the tail cone aperture, and crawling into the fuselage will permit limited access. I was considering installing the radiating element in a plastic tube in the fin, so that the antenna may be easily inserted and removed. Any suggestions as to how to devise a reasonably efficient comm antenna in the tail ? Thanks in advance, -- Best regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 20, 2018
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: VHF antenna in the tail
At 04:57 PM 5/20/2018, you wrote: >Have you considered one of these? > ><http://www.dolba.de/antennenloesungen/funk-antenne-bd5/>http://www.dolba.de/antennenloesungen/funk-antenne-bd5/ > >Fitted to many German gliders, bonded to the fin structure, most how >have glass fiber fins to allow VHF, txpdr & flarm antennas all to be >hidden inside. > >Peter Do you know anyone who has installed this antenna on an OBAM aircraft? It's not clear from the image just how it installs. The website had no links to installation manuals that I could find. The SWR plot is impressive . . . but SWR and efficiency are two separate things. I've dropped them an email requesting more details. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 20, 2018
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Radio or Television Tower Buzz
At 10:33 AM 5/20/2018, you wrote: > >When flying in the vicinity of radio or TV towers, I get a constant >buzz or static over the radio. Sometimes I can hear the conversation >or music from the station, but just barely. It seems to start when >I'm within a 1/2 to 1/4 mile from a tower. > >Anyone else have this type of issue or resolved this type of issue? Seen this and similar situations many times in the past. Powerful transmitters are strong potential interference sources. Effects are many and varied. Used to rent a Beech B77 at Mid Continent that would treat me to a 'buzz' in the headsets while awaiting clearance at the south end of 1R. The hold pad was about 100 yards from the ATC antenna dish. Every time the antenna swept around, you'd hear a buzz-burst at the PRF for the radar transmitter. Sometimes you hear a similar buzz-burst from a transponder reply when the antenna coax shield is broken and the leakage is radiating the cabin. Another rental a/p would drift off track if my LOC intercept path took me past the television stations antenna farm NW of KICT. After passage, the a/p would recover and correctly nail the intercept. Those transmitters have really BIG radiated power numbers . . . sometimes 200,000 watts. Since the effects are inversely proportional to square of distance from the source, they usually go away if you're more than a couple miles from the antenna. Best fix . . . fly around it . . . or simply be aware of it and turn the volume down until you are past it. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Radio or Television Tower Buzz
From: "mike>bentley" <mikeeeb(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 21, 2018
Thanks for the input everyone. My plane seems to be the only one this is happening to as I've flown the same route in everything from Cubs to Challenger 300's and no interference. I'll try what you all suggested and report back. Thanks again. -------- Mike Bentley Joplin, MO N5498B Kitfox Model 4-1200 Jabiru 2200 #438 Rotec Aerosport LCH Heads Prince Prop (64 x 34) Ellison EFS-2 Throttle Body Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480274#480274 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 21, 2018
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Radio or Television Tower Buzz
At 10:05 AM 5/21/2018, you wrote: > >Thanks for the input everyone. My plane seems to be the only one >this is happening to as I've flown the same route in everything from >Cubs to Challenger 300's and no interference. I'll try what you all >suggested and report back. Interference of this type is not a consistent manifestation. Characteristics of the victim and propagation modes can be significantly different even in apparently identical aircraft. The Hawkers had features in their annunciation sensing and response systems that were grand-fathered over from some rather arcane technology and design philosophies. A polite way of suggesting every ship had dozens of potential victims designed to be problem children. In spite of obvious vulnerabilities, the percentage of problem children was relatively low . . . but a pain in the what's-it to fix . . . and every fix was a band-aid. The fact that you're a solitary observer of the problem cited is not unusual. Further, fixing the problem COULD be time consuming and expensive . . . been there and done that on more than one program! As long as the effects do not present a safety of flight condition, I suggest that further investigation is more academic than practical . . . but we would like to hear what you discover. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 21, 2018
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: VHF antenna in the tail
Had a dentist appointment 33 miles away this morning . . . did some 'asphalt engineering' on this thread . . . I occurred to me that the design might be more easily fabricated, installed and maintained if the chassis connector originally suggested were replaced with a BNCF->BNCF bulkhead feed thru like:Bu https://goo.gl/XDTtod The feed line from the transceiver would be terminated in a BNCM cable connector as before. Instead of terminating the radiator with a solder joint at the connector, it too would be fitted with a BNCM cable connector so that it could be detached without disturbing the ground plane. This style of connector seems a likely candidate: https://goo.gl/VLjQXH Solder a short stub of 20AWG wire into the center pin to facilitate connection to the end of the radiator's 'flexy' section. Cover with heat shrink. With the pin fully seated in the connector, back-fill the connector shell with JB weld or other epoxy. The connector clamp ring, gasket and compression nut are discarded. By the way, the ground plane doesn't need to be tucked up tight against the bottom of the radiator conduit. Several inches of radiator could be used to jump a short gap from bottom of conduit to the ground plane without serious effect. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 21, 2018
Subject: OV sensing in Z-12
Well, I'm starting to question my powers of analysis (or at least my memory). While pondering OV protection with dual alternators (using something less expensive than the B&C units), I perused drawing Z-12. Should I assume that the aux alternator must be left disabled until needed? It appears that having both alts on line would result in both OV protection circuits firing, if either alt had an OV event. What I'd like to achieve (alternative engine with auto style engine control) is both alternators (identical capacity) operating all the time, with OV protection taking out only the bad alternator. Thoughts? Charlie Virus-free. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: OV sensing in Z-12
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 21, 2018
Charlie, I agree that both over-voltage modules would trip simultaneously. Options: 1. Like you said, only turn on one alternator at a time. 2. Insert diodes 747-DSA300i45NA in the alternator B leads and connect the over-voltage protection upstream of each diode. 3. Monitor the current on each B lead. In an over voltage condition, shut off only the alternator that is putting out the highest current. This option requires the design of an electronic circuit. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480281#480281 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Low Battery Voltage Blows Fuel Pump Fuse?
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 21, 2018
There is a recent thread on VansAirforce about the electric fuel pump 5 amp fuse blowing as a result of low battery voltage. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=160595 I would have attributed the blown fuse to some other cause, except that two pilots reported the same symptoms on two different aircraft. The fuel pump is Facet part number 40105. According to Aircraft Spruce, that pump draws 1 amp. I measured the current draw on my spare pump (same make and model) at 3/4 amp with a light load. When I connected a 6 volt battery to the pump instead of 12 volts, the pump quit working and the current dropped to about 1/2 amp. I do not have a power supply with adjustable voltage output. Does the current draw for a DC pump motor actually increase as the voltage decreases? And even if it did, which I doubt, the current would have to increase by a factor of 5 in order to blow the fuse. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480282#480282 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Low Battery Voltage Blows Fuel Pump Fuse?
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 21, 2018
I called it a pump motor but, judging by the sound, the Facet 40105 is more likely to be a solenoid that operates a piston. It is advertised as solid state, which probably refers to the pulsing control circuit. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480283#480283 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 21, 2018
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: OV sensing in Z-12
At 05:25 PM 5/21/2018, you wrote: >Well, I'm starting to question my powers of analysis (or at least my >memory). While pondering OV protection with dual alternators (using >something less expensive than the B&C units), I perused drawing >Z-12. Should I assume that the aux alternator must be left disabled >until needed? It appears that having both alts on line would result >in both OV protection circuits firing, if either alt had an OV event. The B&C SB-1 controller features automatic enabling of the standby alternator upon failure of the main alternator . . . along with an annunciator system to notify the pilot of the event. One COULD use a more generic controller and forego up the auto switching/annunciation feature. You still need low voltage annunciation. If you get a light, you turn the main alternator OFF; the standby alternator ON. The B&C products do feature 'selective trip' . . . a circuit that deduces whether or not the client alternator is the source of the ov event. But with only one alternator operating at any time, plain vanilla ov protection will function as desired. >What I'd like to achieve (alternative engine with auto style engine >control) is both alternators (identical capacity) operating all the >time, with OV protection taking out only the bad alternator. Why two alternators ON at the same time? Making the transition from main to s/b alternator is not a 'tense' event. If the main alternator quits, you can finish your cup of coffee and fold the map up before you start flipping switches. The auto-change and annunciation were features that were more bells-and-whistles designed to tickle the fancy of A36 drivers and Beech engineers. It was easy to do as we wanted to monitor b-lead current on the SD20 and enable easy load shedding. If you're wanting to run two full sized alternators, then I would agree that the SB-1 if a bit of over-kill. If it were my airplane, they would be alternator #1 and #2 and swap back and forth in preflight. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 21, 2018
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: OV sensing in Z-12
At 06:25 PM 5/21/2018, you wrote: > >Charlie, >I agree that both over-voltage modules would trip simultaneously. >Options: >1. Like you said, only turn on one alternator at a time. I like that . . . >2. Insert diodes 747-DSA300i45NA in the alternator B leads and >connect the over-voltage protection upstream of each diode. >3. Monitor the current on each B lead. In an over voltage >condition, shut off only the alternator that is putting out the >highest current. This option requires the design of an electronic circuit. Achhh! . . . Joseph . . . go wash your mouth out with soap. You go to bed without your Oreos and milk . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 21, 2018
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Low Battery Voltage Blows Fuel Pump Fuse?
At 06:54 PM 5/21/2018, you wrote: > >There is a recent thread on VansAirforce about the electric fuel >pump 5 amp fuse blowing as a result of low battery voltage. >http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=160595 >I would have attributed the blown fuse to some other cause, except >that two pilots reported the same symptoms on two different >aircraft. The fuel pump is Facet part number 40105. According to >Aircraft Spruce, that pump draws 1 amp. I measured the current draw >on my spare pump (same make and model) at 3/4 amp with a light >load. When I connected a 6 volt battery to the pump instead of 12 >volts, the pump quit working and the current dropped to about 1/2 >amp. I do not have a power supply with adjustable voltage >output. Does the current draw for a DC pump motor actually increase >as the voltage decreases? And even if it did, which I doubt, the >current would have to increase by a factor of 5 in order to blow the fuse. Hmmmm . . . that's a strange one. Those pumps are strange creatures that don't behave like what we would expect of a motor driven device. The 'thumping' noise is a piston being magnetically driven to compress a spring. The piston is hollow and has check valves in each end. The 'power stroke' compresses the spring and reduces pressure on the inlet side. Fuel is forced past the inlet check valve filling the piston. At the end of the power pulse, spring pressure works to return the piston to its resting position, increasing pressure on the fuel which closes the inlet valve and opens the outlet valve. Spring force and piston motion pushes fuel out of the pump. Emacs! Output pressure is purely a function of spring force. Output flow is purely a function of how much flow leaves the pump at the calibrated pressure. The spring, piston volume and pulse rate are adjusted to produce the desired MAXIMUM flow at a pressure not exceeding that which is established by the spring. Hence, blocking the outlet off completely does not increase current draw . . . in fact, the energy consumed by the pump is relatively constant whether or not the device has fuel moving through it. To have one of these devices draw an extra-ordinary current value suggests a fault in the pump power feeder or a shorted winding in the pump's stroke motor. I would troubleshoot by (1) replacing the pump. I've measured energy consumption with agile data acquisition systems that deal with the very intermittent nature of current flow. It's difficult to get a 'reading' with ordinary hand held instruments . . . but you can get a general sense of magnitude with an analog ammeter. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: OV sensing in Z-12
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 21, 2018
I can handle the soap in my mouth. But I am NOT going to bed without my Oreos and milk! -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480287#480287 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Low Battery Voltage Blows Fuel Pump Fuse?
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 21, 2018
Bob, Thanks for the reply and explanation about how the pump works. I had neglected to mention that the fuel pump fuse blows during engine cranking. I do not think that makes any difference to the pump, other than causing a voltage sag. I measured the current draw of my spare pump with an analog Simpson 260. I am as mystified as you. Unfortunately the plane is located hundreds of miles away. All I have to go by is second hand information. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480288#480288 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Low Battery Voltage Blows Fuel Pump Fuse?
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 21, 2018
Bob, Thanks for the reply and explanation about how the pump works. I had neglected to mention that the fuel pump fuse blows during engine cranking. I do not think that makes any difference to the pump, other than causing a voltage sag. I measured the current draw of my spare pump with an analog Simpson 260. I am as mystified as you. Unfortunately the plane is located hundreds of miles away. All I have to go by is second hand information. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here:


May 09, 2018 - May 21, 2018

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