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      AooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKAC
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      KKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooo
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      iiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooA//2Q=
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 16, 2018
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
      
      Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
      So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
      When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier
      between the ELT antenna and the sky.
      Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
      And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab
      wing tips being the best location.
      Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless.  They are usually in a
      fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery.  They are an FAA
      Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
      Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal Locating
      Transmitter).
      
      Choose wisely Grasshopper,
      
      Barry
      
      
      On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 1:46 PM Ernest Christley  wrote:
      
      > Bob,
      >
      > I have some interest in that top loaded antennae you depict.  I mounted my
      > whip antennae on the belly of a Zenith 601XL, in order to remove the
      > interference that it had with my comm antennae.  Well, now it almost drags
      > the ground.  Not a good thing on a grass strip.  It would be nice to have a
      > shorter antennae.
      >
      > With that being said, I'm firmly in the camp of not ever expecting to rely
      > on an ELT for anyone to find me.  It's there and operating for legal
      > compliance and nothing else.
      >
      >
      > On Thursday, August 16, 2018 10:14 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <
      > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
      >
      >
      > My part number is ELT10-773 for a Kannad Compact if you want to look up a
      > pic.  I believe these ELT whip antennas are base-loaded, meaning the Acetal
      > plastic base is also generating signal and should not be shielded by a
      > metal fuselage.
      >
      >
      >   None of the ELT antennas are 'gain' devices meaning that
      >   their mechanical length is 1/4 wavelength or less. When
      >   'shortened' they must be electrically resonated (loaded)
      >   to present an energy accepting and least reactive
      >   termination of the feed line.
      >
      >   Back in 2004, I wrote about a kerfuffle with elt
      >   antennas on the Beechjet. Seems that somewhere along
      >   the history of this installation, somebody decided
      >   that it would be really cool if the antennas could
      >   be totally enclosed under the dorsal fine toe fairing.
      >
      > [image: Emacs!]
      >
      >  This situated the antennas in close proximity to
      >  metallic obstructions to idealized radiation
      >  patterns. Another insult to performance was
      >  perpetrated by a fiberglas cover which was
      >  was host to some inlet air ducts for the
      >  HVAC system.
      >
      >  So they added a metal bracket (which had to be bonded
      >  to structure for lighting issues) to mount a phenolic
      >  block intended to conform the antennas to space
      >  under the fairing by deflecting them down and aft
      >  against the phenolic block.
      >
      >
      > [image: Emacs!]
      >
      >
      > [image: Emacs!]
      >
      >   This work-around was no doubt enthusiastically
      >   accepted by everybody but the ELT manufacturer. I
      >   was unable to locate any documents that described tests
      >   of this installation wherein performance degradation
      >   was deemed acceptable.
      >
      >   The problem didn't come to the attention of the
      >   ELT manufacturer until some of their more agile
      >   products began to complain about high SWR. I
      >   proposed that the stock antenna be replaced with
      >   top loaded verticals that were not only mechanically
      >   shorter but tailored to accommodate the proximity
      >   effects of local conductors.
      >
      > [image: Emacs!]
      >
      >   However, this was a TSO'd installation holy-watered with
      >   the as-supplied antennas.
      >
      >   Tailoring new antennas to the installation would require
      >   re-certification of the ELT. But there was silence when
      >   I inquired as to how badly the TSO was being compromised
      >   by the non-standard installation of the stock antennas.
      >
      >   The 'fix' was to change software in the ELT to accept
      >   higher SWR values . . . seems that didn't disrespect
      >   the TSO . . .
      >
      >   Bottom line is that the lion's share of radiation
      >   flux from these antennas comes from the bottom third
      >   of the antenna . . . the area where the highest currents
      >   are found. This means that 'top' loading as illustrated
      >   above does not seriously affect antenna performance but
      >   it does narrow bandwidth . . . not a big deal for
      >   single frequency operations.
      >
      >   So while deliberating ways and means of getting the
      >   stock antennas situated for best esthetics and/or
      >   aerodynamics, be aware of potential distortions of
      >   radiation patterns and performance. Be aware also
      >   that without instrumented investigation of performance,
      >   any opinions as to the effects of non-standard
      >   installation are more guess than fact.
      >
      >   Bob . . .
      >
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 16, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: alternator gets hot while hangar flying
      
      At 12:05 PM 8/16/2018, you wrote:
      >Bob, no I do not have a BAT only position on my master (drawing 
      >attached). Yes, I do have a field breaker that I can easily pull, 
      >and I will pull it from now on.
      
      that will work
      
      >  Have I harmed my alternator by not turning it off previously?
      
         No, it will be fine.
      
      
         Bob . . .  
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 16, 2018
From: 
Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net>
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
      
      
          On Thursday, August 16, 2018 2:06 PM, FLYaDIVE  wro
      te:
      
      Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless.=C2- They are usually 
      in a fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery.=C2- They are 
      an FAA Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.Consider a Personal A
      round the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal Locating Transmitter).
      
      As stated, I agree, Barry.=C2- But, even if you have ADS-B, the FAA still
       makes you put that useless radio in your airplane, and they make you conne
      ct it to an antennae.=C2- My antennae practically drags the ground, and g
      ets pulled on while picking up grass.=C2- The antennae Bob depicted looks
       like it would be more robust, and (being=C2- higher) wouldn't drag throu
      gh the grass.
         
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Gerald Farek <gfarek(at)yahoo.com>
Date: 
Aug 16, 2018
Subject: 
Re: alternator gets hot while hangar flying
      
      Pull the field breaker or fuse maybe.
      
      Sent from my iPhone
      
      > On Aug 16, 2018, at 11:18 AM, Sebastien  wrote:
      > 
      > Could you simply turn the alternator off? Or pull the field breaker?
      > 
      >> On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 9:06 AM, Ken Ryan  wrote:
      >> I've been spending some time in the seat learning to use my Dynon. I just
       noticed that my alternator (Denso, internally regulated) gets hot with the p
      ower on. I can hold my hand against it, but just barely. Any hotter and I wo
      uld need to remove my hand. I guess it makes sense that it would get hot (en
      ergizing the field). Am I harming the alternator? Should I unplug the field w
      ire?
      >> 
      >> Ken
      > 
      ==========================
      ==========================
      ==========================
      -=========================
      ==========================
      -=========================
      ==========================
      ==========================
      ====================
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
From: 
Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 16, 2018
      
      
      =81=A3Charlie=8B
      
      On Aug 16, 2018, 3:16 PM, at 3:16 PM, Ernest C
      hristley  wrote:
      > 
      >
      >On Thursday, August 16, 2018 2
      :06 PM, FLYaDIVE 
      >wrote:
      >
      >Personally I feel ELT's 
      are one step above useless=2E=C2- They are usually
      >in a fixed location, 
      broken, buried,or have a dead battery=2E=C2- They are
      >an FAA Reg, not a 
      true safety, Search & Rescue device=2EConsider a
      >Personal Around the neck,
       or leg mounted PLT (Personal Locating
      >Transmitter)=2E
      >
      >As stated, I agr
      ee, Barry=2E=C2- But, even if you have ADS-B, the FAA still
      >makes you pu
      t that useless radio in your airplane, and they make you
      >connect it to an 
      antennae=2E=C2- My antennae practically drags the ground,
      >and gets pulle
      d on while picking up grass=2E=C2- The antennae Bob depicted
      >looks like 
      it would be more robust, and (being=C2- higher) wouldn't drag
      >through th
      e grass=2E
      >   
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 16, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
      
      Bob,
      
      
      I have some interest in that top loaded antennae you depict.  I 
      mounted my whip antennae on the belly of a Zenith 601XL, in order to 
      remove the interference that it had with my comm antennae.  Well, now 
      it almost drags the ground.  Not a good thing on a grass strip.  It 
      would be nice to have a shorter antennae.
      
          Are we talking about an ELT antenna? 121.5 or
          406 MHz?
      
          If you're talking about a 121.5 ELT antenna,
          have you looked at parking it just in front
          of the vertical fin?
      
      With that being said, I'm firmly in the camp of not ever expecting to 
      rely on an ELT for anyone to find me.  It's there and operating for 
      legal compliance and nothing else.
      
          I was a tech writer at Cessna when we started
          putting crash actuated, 121.5/243 squawk boxes into our
          products. They were maintenance headaches, prone to
          false actuation and depended on terrestrial and/or
          aircraft mounted direction finding equipment to
          locate downed aircraft. The military variants of
          the Cessna 337 (O2A forward observer aircraft)
          were fitted with such direction finders . . .
      
      Emacs!
      
      
          That 'towel bar' antenna just above the windshield
          was part of the search and rescue hardware in
          use by military, CAP and an, no doubt a few
          well heeled commercial ventures.
      
          It wasn't until about 1980 that satellites
          were fitted with 121.5 monitor receivers. The
          system had no geopositioning capabilities beyond
          reporting acquisition and loss times for signals.
          After getting 'data' from a number of satellite
          passes, the guys with slide rules and a knowledge
          of spherical trig could pin the location down
          to a 20 mile or so circle.
      
          The O2A drivers had pretty good odds for locating
          any signal they could hear . . . satellite drivers
          not so much.
      
          Nonetheless, thousands of lives were saved over
          the early history of ELT.
      
          GPS and UHF technologies changed the ball game.
          Now, the ELT can REPORT your position to an
          accuracy of a few feet. Moreover, the ability of
          a UHF signal to propagate from unfriendly
          environs is better. Combine this with improvements
          in communications technologies and protocols,
          the probability of success for transmitting
          and ELT signal are improved by orders of magnitude
          both in terms of location and shortening response
          time. If you fly a lot over ugly/remote terrain,
          a modern GPS coupled ELT is a pretty good value.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: 
Aug 16, 2018
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
      
      I figure that my ELT is another layer of protection for keeping my
      passengers and me alive. I also wear seat belts... and shoulder harnesses,
      and I carry a small fire extinguisher... and I have a steel firewall...
      well... you get the idea. Given the overall cost of my airplane, the
      additional dollars for the ELT are pretty small. If I crash, I figure that
      there is a pretty good chance that my 406 MHz ELT will survive and summon
      assistance. With luck, we'll still be alive when help gets to us.
      
      Also, I figure that I owe this to my passengers. I'm not making the
      decision solely for myself.
      
          -- Art Z.
      
      On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 3:12 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
      nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
      
      >
      > GPS and UHF technologies changed the ball game.
      >    Now, the ELT can REPORT your position to an
      >    accuracy of a few feet. Moreover, the ability of
      >    a UHF signal to propagate from unfriendly
      >    environs is better. Combine this with improvements
      >    in communications technologies and protocols,
      >    the probability of success for transmitting
      >    and ELT signal are improved by orders of magnitude
      >    both in terms of location and shortening response
      >    time. If you fly a lot over ugly/remote terrain,
      >    a modern GPS coupled ELT is a pretty good value.
      >
      
      -- 
      https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
      
      *"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."*
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 16, 2018
From: 
Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net>
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
      
      Thanks guys.=C2- It's good to know everyone is safety minded.=C2- My da
      d always said that if you don't have what you need, then you need what you 
      have.=C2- An ELT is a great thing, except when compared to a host of impr
      oved technology that has replaced it.=C2- It is a last resort, but=C2- 
      in 2018 the emphasis should be on LAST. 
      
      That being said, it won't even be a last resort if the ground dragging ante
      nnae has been ripped off by the grass at a poorly kept strip.=C2- My ques
      tion concerning the T shaped antennae is a possible effort to improve the v
      iability of my ELT as a safety device.
      Is there a reference you could refer a person with a goal of building one
      =C2- to for that type of antennae?
      
      
          On Thursday, August 16, 2018 4:25 PM, Art Zemon  wrote:
      
      
       I figure that my ELT is another layer of protection for keeping my passeng
      ers and me alive. I also wear seat belts... and shoulder harnesses, and I c
      arry a small fire extinguisher... and I have a steel firewall... well... yo
      u get the idea. Given the overall cost of my airplane, the additional dolla
      rs for the ELT are pretty small. If I crash, I figure that there is a prett
      y good chance that my 406 MHz ELT will survive and summon assistance. With 
      luck, we'll still be alive when help gets to us.
      Also, I figure that I owe this to my passengers. I'm not making the decisio
      n solely for myself.
      =C2- =C2- -- Art Z.
      On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 3:12 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroe
      lectric.com> wrote:
      
      =C2- =C2-GPS and UHF technologies changed the ball game.
      =C2-=C2- Now, the ELT can REPORT your position to an
      =C2-=C2- accuracy of a few feet. Moreover, the ability of
      =C2-=C2- a UHF signal to propagate from unfriendly 
      =C2-=C2- environs is better. Combine this with improvements
      =C2-=C2- in communications technologies and protocols,
      =C2-=C2- the probability of success for transmitting
      =C2-=C2- and ELT signal are improved by orders of magnitude
      =C2-=C2- both in terms of location and shortening response
      =C2-=C2- time. If you fly a lot over ugly/remote terrain, 
      =C2-=C2- a modern GPS coupled ELT is a pretty good value.
      
      -- 
      https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
      
      "We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."
      
      
         
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 16, 2018
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
      
      AWESOME - BOB, AWESOME!  I was USAF radio maintenance in Korea with the
      19th Task Force and did a little flying in O-2's up at the DMZ.
      
      Barry
      
      
      On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 3:56 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
      nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
      
      > Bob,
      >
      >
      > I have some interest in that top loaded antennae you depict.  I mounted my
      > whip antennae on the belly of a Zenith 601XL, in order to remove the
      > interference that it had with my comm antennae.  Well, now it almost drags
      > the ground.  Not a good thing on a grass strip.  It would be nice to have a
      > shorter antennae.
      >
      >    Are we talking about an ELT antenna? 121.5 or
      >    406 MHz?
      >
      >    If you're talking about a 121.5 ELT antenna,
      >    have you looked at parking it just in front
      >    of the vertical fin?
      >
      > With that being said, I'm firmly in the camp of not ever expecting to rely
      > on an ELT for anyone to find me.  It's there and operating for legal
      > compliance and nothing else.
      >
      >    I was a tech writer at Cessna when we started
      >    putting crash actuated, 121.5/243 squawk boxes into our
      >    products. They were maintenance headaches, prone to
      >    false actuation and depended on terrestrial and/or
      >    aircraft mounted direction finding equipment to
      >    locate downed aircraft. The military variants of
      >    the Cessna 337 (O2A forward observer aircraft)
      >    were fitted with such direction finders . . .
      >
      > [image: Emacs!]
      >
      >    That 'towel bar' antenna just above the windshield
      >    was part of the search and rescue hardware in
      >    use by military, CAP and an, no doubt a few
      >    well heeled commercial ventures.
      >
      >    It wasn't until about 1980 that satellites
      >    were fitted with 121.5 monitor receivers. The
      >    system had no geopositioning capabilities beyond
      >    reporting acquisition and loss times for signals.
      >    After getting 'data' from a number of satellite
      >    passes, the guys with slide rules and a knowledge
      >    of spherical trig could pin the location down
      >    to a 20 mile or so circle.
      >
      >    The O2A drivers had pretty good odds for locating
      >    any signal they could hear . . . satellite drivers
      >    not so much.
      >
      >    Nonetheless, thousands of lives were saved over
      >    the early history of ELT.
      >
      >    GPS and UHF technologies changed the ball game.
      >    Now, the ELT can REPORT your position to an
      >    accuracy of a few feet. Moreover, the ability of
      >    a UHF signal to propagate from unfriendly
      >    environs is better. Combine this with improvements
      >    in communications technologies and protocols,
      >    the probability of success for transmitting
      >    and ELT signal are improved by orders of magnitude
      >    both in terms of location and shortening response
      >    time. If you fly a lot over ugly/remote terrain,
      >    a modern GPS coupled ELT is a pretty good value.
      >
      >
      >   Bob . . .
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
From: 
Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 16, 2018
      
      Don't know if this is something that concerns you, but the antenna is part 
      of the elt's certification=2E Obviously any comm antenna will work (for the
       old 121=2E5 models), but they won't be 'legal'=2E
      
      The new '406' units are
       a different story; I'm pretty sure that they are dual freq transmitters, n
      eeding an antenna that can handle both 406 and 121=2E5=2E 
      
      =81=A3Charli
      e=8B
      
      On Aug 16, 2018, 5:11 PM, at 5:11 PM, Ernest Christley  wrote:
      >Thanks guys=2E=C2- It's good to know everyone is s
      afety minded=2E=C2- My dad
      >always said that if you don't have what you n
      eed, then you need what
      >you have=2E=C2- An ELT is a great thing, except 
      when compared to a host of
      >improved technology that has replaced it=2E=C2
      - It is a last resort, but=C2- in
      >2018 the emphasis should be on LAST
      =2E 
      >
      >That being said, it won't even be a last resort if the ground dragg
      ing
      >antennae has been ripped off by the grass at a poorly kept strip=2E=C2
      - My
      >question concerning the T shaped antennae is a possible effort to
      >
      improve the viability of my ELT as a safety device=2E
      >Is there a reference
       you could refer a person with a goal of building
      >one=C2- to for that ty
      pe of antennae?
      > 
      >
      >On Thursday, August 16, 2018 4:25 PM, Art Zemon  wrote:
      > 
      >
      >I figure that my ELT is another layer of protect
      ion for keeping my
      >passengers and me alive=2E I also wear seat belts=2E=2E
      =2E and shoulder
      >harnesses, and I carry a small fire extinguisher=2E=2E=2E
       and I have a steel
      >firewall=2E=2E=2E well=2E=2E=2E you get the idea=2E Gi
      ven the overall cost of my
      >airplane, the additional dollars for the ELT ar
      e pretty small=2E If I
      >crash, I figure that there is a pretty good chance 
      that my 406 MHz ELT
      >will survive and summon assistance=2E With luck, we'll
       still be alive
      >when help gets to us=2E
      >Also, I figure that I owe this to
       my passengers=2E I'm not making the
      >decision solely for myself=2E
      >=C2-
       =C2- -- Art Z=2E
      >On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 3:12 PM Robert L=2E Nuckolls, 
      III
      > wrote:
      >
      >=C2- =C2-GPS and UHF
       technologies changed the ball game=2E
      >=C2-=C2- Now, the ELT can REPOR
      T your position to an
      >=C2-=C2- accuracy of a few feet=2E Moreover, the
       ability of
      >=C2-=C2- a UHF signal to propagate from unfriendly 
      >=C2
      -=C2- environs is better=2E Combine this with improvements
      >=C2-=C2
      - in communications technologies and protocols,
      >=C2-=C2- the probabi
      lity of success for transmitting
      >=C2-=C2- and ELT signal are improved 
      by orders of magnitude
      >=C2-=C2- both in terms of location and shorteni
      ng response
      >=C2-=C2- time=2E If you fly a lot over ugly/remote terrain
      , 
      >=C2-=C2- a modern GPS coupled ELT is a pretty good value=2E
      >
      >-- 
      
      >https://CheerfulCurmudgeon=2Ecom/
      >
      >"We do not see the world as it is=2E 
      We see the world as we are=2E"
      >
      >
      >   
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 16, 2018
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
      
      Art, your thinking is correct. To say modern 406 ELTs are no good is a
      statement that cannot be rationally justified. The fact is, they are
      fantastic devices.
      I'm not big on "required equipment" but I think if you ever fly in such a
      way
      that you might trigger a search event (ie with a flight plan or having
      family
      notify SAR if you don't return) then you owe it to the searchers to  have a
      modern 406 ELT. There is certainly nothing wrong with also carrying
      a PLB. I certainly do. Just last month a buddy wrecked his airplane (he was
      unhurt).
      He said that within about two minutes his cell phone rang. It was SAR
      asking
      him if he was okay. By the way, his antenna was externally mounted on top
      of the
      all metal airplane, and he flipped it. If you read about the recent tragedy
      on Denali,
      then you know that thanks to the 406 ELT searchers knew exactly where the
      airplane
      was located. Unfortunately it didn't save any lives in the crashed
      airplane, but it very well
      might have saved lives by completely eliminating the search portion of SAR.
      
      On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 12:30 PM Art Zemon  wrote:
      
      > I figure that my ELT is another layer of protection for keeping my
      > passengers and me alive. I also wear seat belts... and shoulder harnesses,
      > and I carry a small fire extinguisher... and I have a steel firewall...
      > well... you get the idea. Given the overall cost of my airplane, the
      > additional dollars for the ELT are pretty small. If I crash, I figure that
      > there is a pretty good chance that my 406 MHz ELT will survive and summon
      > assistance. With luck, we'll still be alive when help gets to us.
      >
      > Also, I figure that I owe this to my passengers. I'm not making the
      > decision solely for myself.
      >
      >     -- Art Z.
      >
      > On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 3:12 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
      > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
      >
      >>
      >> GPS and UHF technologies changed the ball game.
      >>    Now, the ELT can REPORT your position to an
      >>    accuracy of a few feet. Moreover, the ability of
      >>    a UHF signal to propagate from unfriendly
      >>    environs is better. Combine this with improvements
      >>    in communications technologies and protocols,
      >>    the probability of success for transmitting
      >>    and ELT signal are improved by orders of magnitude
      >>    both in terms of location and shortening response
      >>    time. If you fly a lot over ugly/remote terrain,
      >>    a modern GPS coupled ELT is a pretty good value.
      >>
      >
      > --
      > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
      >
      > *"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."*
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au>
Subject: 
Re: ELT antenna
Date: 
Aug 17, 2018
      
      Thanks Bob.
      
      Could you confirm please that the threaded metal mount of a base-loaded 
      406MHz ELT antenna should definitely have some ground plane like a COM 
      antenna?  Pictured below is my current installation and the ELT antenna, 
      but I need to add some flexibility to the attach point in a small space 
      on the upper surface of the fuselage without compromising grounding (I 
      think).
      
      Also, as a former principle RAAF SAR Officer (USCG and USAF trained), I 
      should add a few comments about 121.5 and 406MHz beacon safety that I 
      think our aviation community might benefit from:
      
      Old system - 121.5 / 243.0 MHz
      
      1.	121.5MHz satellite COSPAS/SARSAT reception (payloads piggy 
      backed on NOAA satellites, among others) primarily used doppler shift 
      (frequency change, much like the sound of a train approaching, passing 
      and leaving you) to determine the abeam point (centre frequency) during 
      each satellite pass.  Unfortunately, there is an abeam on both sides of 
      the satellite path, so multiple passes were required to resolve the fix 
      ambiguity.  While there were lots of satellites fitted with this 
      payload, it could still take as long as 12 hours to achieve multiple 
      passes and a decent search datum to launch SAR assets to.  In fact, when 
      a C-130 crash position indicator was popped off the tail around 
      Cootamundra (near Canberra, Australia), it still took nine hours for 
      COSPAS/SARSAT to provide a start datum, despite knowing where to look.
      2.	121.5MHz beacon frequency stability was relatively poor, meaning 
      establishing centre frequency was inaccurate and the possible datum 
      ellipse was commensurately large (not so great for limited SAR 
      resources).
      3.	The approximate 121.5MHz position was then used to for local 
      Direction Finding via other platforms.
      4.	The COSPAS/SARSAT network was highly susceptible to false alarms 
      triggered by stray RF.  Approximately 95% of alerts were false the world 
      over, meaning already resource limited SAR assets were being wasted and 
      potentially denying people in real need.
      
      New system - 406.025MHz
      
      1.	406MHz signals are digital and it incorporate a unique HEXID, 
      which is 15 digits long.  It can be appended with all sorts of 
      information in a long or short message format.  Geostationary satellites 
      can collect this information and the Rescue Coordination Centre 
      immediately knows (from the registration database) whose ELT is active.  
      Form the database they can obtain your contact details and call you or 
      your nominated alternative points of contact.
      2.	If your 406 ELT doesn=99t have a GPS input (either an 
      inbuilt GPS receiver, or GPS feed signal from the NAV system onboard 
      your aircraft), then Low Earth Orbit (LEO) satellite passes still take 
      time to conduct doppler analysis for position.  However, the frequency 
      stability of modern 406.025MHz ELTs provides a much smaller ellipse of 
      about 5km.  406 beacons must still have a 121.5 swept tone signal for 
      localised rescue platforms to direction find, but that the COSPAS/SARSAT 
      detection of 121.5 was switched off back in Feb 2009.
      3.	If your 406 ELT does have a GPS input (highly recommended 
      option), then the position is appended to the long message digital 
      broadcast and is received by the RCC as soon as a valid GPS fix is 
      obtained  obviously a much better option!
      
      I have a non-GPS Kannad Compact ELT connected to this antenna, which has 
      frangible switches to activate automatically in a crash.  I also have a 
      GPS PLB, which I can activate if I am still alive or become separated 
      from the aircraft (such as after ditching perhaps).  Small price to pay 
      for a lot of assurance that rescuers know where to start looking and 
      when.  Exposure is the big killer (assuming injuries are survivable) and 
      often the first 24 hours are the only 24 hours to rescue before it=99
      s too late, so it=99s in our best interests to start the search 
      and rescue in the right place.
      
      Regards, Stu
      
      
      > On 17 Aug 2018, at 08:16, Ken Ryan  wrote:
      > 
      > Art, your thinking is correct. To say modern 406 ELTs are no good is a
      > statement that cannot be rationally justified. The fact is, they are 
      fantastic devices. 
      > I'm not big on "required equipment" but I think if you ever fly in 
      such a way
      > that you might trigger a search event (ie with a flight plan or having 
      family
      > notify SAR if you don't return) then you owe it to the searchers to  
      have a 
      > modern 406 ELT. There is certainly nothing wrong with also carrying 
      > a PLB. I certainly do. Just last month a buddy wrecked his airplane 
      (he was unhurt).
      > He said that within about two minutes his cell phone rang. It was SAR 
      asking 
      > him if he was okay. By the way, his antenna was externally mounted on 
      top of the 
      > all metal airplane, and he flipped it. If you read about the recent 
      tragedy on Denali, 
      > then you know that thanks to the 406 ELT searchers knew exactly where 
      the airplane
      > was located. Unfortunately it didn't save any lives in the crashed 
      airplane, but it very well 
      > might have saved lives by completely eliminating the search portion of 
      SAR.
      > 
      > On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 12:30 PM Art Zemon > wrote:
      > I figure that my ELT is another layer of protection for keeping my 
      passengers and me alive. I also wear seat belts... and shoulder 
      harnesses, and I carry a small fire extinguisher... and I have a steel 
      firewall... well... you get the idea. Given the overall cost of my 
      airplane, the additional dollars for the ELT are pretty small. If I 
      crash, I figure that there is a pretty good chance that my 406 MHz ELT 
      will survive and summon assistance. With luck, we'll still be alive when 
      help gets to us.
      > 
      > Also, I figure that I owe this to my passengers. I'm not making the 
      decision solely for myself.
      > 
      >     -- Art Z.
      > 
      > On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 3:12 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III 
      > 
      wrote:
      >    GPS and UHF technologies changed the ball game.
      >    Now, the ELT can REPORT your position to an
      >    accuracy of a few feet. Moreover, the ability of
      >    a UHF signal to propagate from unfriendly 
      >    environs is better. Combine this with improvements
      >    in communications technologies and protocols,
      >    the probability of success for transmitting
      >    and ELT signal are improved by orders of magnitude
      >    both in terms of location and shortening response
      >    time. If you fly a lot over ugly/remote terrain, 
      >    a modern GPS coupled ELT is a pretty good value.
      > 
      > -- 
      > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ 
      > 
      > "We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
From: 
Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: 
Aug 16, 2018
      
      
      Legality depends on whether it is on a certified aircraft or not. AFAIK, 
      for OBAM experimental aircraft I believe the ELT and antenna only have 
      to meet the performance criteria of the TSO, not the letter of it.
      Why the antennas were ever part of the certification is a mystery. They 
      could have just as easily said a 121.5 antenna with less than x.yy SWR.
      A Narco ELT antenna isn't legal with an ACK ELT and vice versa, even 
      though they are the same freq. for same purpose and probably very close 
      in SWR.
      
      On 8/16/2018 3:06 PM, Charlie England wrote:
      > Don't know if this is something that concerns you, but the antenna is 
      > part of the elt's certification. Obviously any comm antenna will work 
      > (for the old 121.5 models), but they won't be 'legal'.
      > 
      > The new '406' units are a different story; I'm pretty sure that they are 
      > dual freq transmitters, needing an antenna that can handle both 406 and 
      > 121.5.
      > 
      > Charlie
      > On Aug 16, 2018, at 5:11 PM, Ernest Christley  > wrote:
      > 
      >     Thanks guys. It's good to know everyone is safety minded. My dad
      >     always said that if you don't have what you need, then you need what
      >     you have. An ELT is a great thing, except when compared to a host
      >     of improved technology that has replaced it. It is a last resort,
      >     but in 2018 the emphasis should be on LAST.
      > 
      >     That being said, it won't even be a last resort if the ground
      >     dragging antennae has been ripped off by the grass at a poorly kept
      >     strip. My question concerning the T shaped antennae is a possible
      >     effort to improve the viability of my ELT as a safety device.
      > 
      >     Is there a reference you could refer a person with a goal of
      >     building one to for that type of antennae?
      > 
      > 
      >     On Thursday, August 16, 2018 4:25 PM, Art Zemon  wrote:
      > 
      > 
      >     I figure that my ELT is another layer of protection for keeping my
      >     passengers and me alive. I also wear seat belts... and shoulder
      >     harnesses, and I carry a small fire extinguisher... and I have a
      >     steel firewall... well... you get the idea. Given the overall cost
      >     of my airplane, the additional dollars for the ELT are pretty small.
      >     If I crash, I figure that there is a pretty good chance that my 406
      >     MHz ELT will survive and summon assistance. With luck, we'll still
      >     be alive when help gets to us.
      > 
      >     Also, I figure that I owe this to my passengers. I'm not making the
      >     decision solely for myself.
      > 
      >        -- Art Z.
      > 
      >     On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 3:12 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III
      >          > wrote:
      > 
      >         GPS and UHF technologies changed the ball game.
      >           Now, the ELT can REPORT your position to an
      >           accuracy of a few feet. Moreover, the ability of
      >           a UHF signal to propagate from unfriendly
      >           environs is better. Combine this with improvements
      >           in communications technologies and protocols,
      >           the probability of success for transmitting
      >           and ELT signal are improved by orders of magnitude
      >           both in terms of location and shortening response
      >           time. If you fly a lot over ugly/remote terrain,
      >           a modern GPS coupled ELT is a pretty good value.
      > 
      > 
      >     -- 
      >     https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ 
      > 
      >     /"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."/
      > 
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 16, 2018
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
      
      "A Narco ELT antenna isn't legal with an ACK ELT and vice versa, even
      though they are the same freq. for same purpose and probably very close
      in SWR.
      "
      
      Yea! Don't ya just love it...  When Lawyers become EE's!!!
      
      I had that exact problem with a 337.  Except the ELT Antenna was supplied
      by the aircraft manufacture.
      
      Manufacture - trumps - Supplier.
      
      Barry
      
      On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 8:31 PM Kelly McMullen  wrote:
      
      > kellym(at)aviating.com>
      >
      > Legality depends on whether it is on a certified aircraft or not. AFAIK,
      > for OBAM experimental aircraft I believe the ELT and antenna only have
      > to meet the performance criteria of the TSO, not the letter of it.
      > Why the antennas were ever part of the certification is a mystery. They
      > could have just as easily said a 121.5 antenna with less than x.yy SWR.
      > A Narco ELT antenna isn't legal with an ACK ELT and vice versa, even
      > though they are the same freq. for same purpose and probably very close
      > in SWR.
      >
      > On 8/16/2018 3:06 PM, Charlie England wrote:
      > > Don't know if this is something that concerns you, but the antenna is
      > > part of the elt's certification. Obviously any comm antenna will work
      > > (for the old 121.5 models), but they won't be 'legal'.
      > >
      > > The new '406' units are a different story; I'm pretty sure that they are
      > > dual freq transmitters, needing an antenna that can handle both 406 and
      > > 121.5.
      > >
      > > Charlie
      > > On Aug 16, 2018, at 5:11 PM, Ernest Christley  > > wrote:
      > >
      > >     Thanks guys.  It's good to know everyone is safety minded.  My dad
      > >     always said that if you don't have what you need, then you need what
      > >     you have.  An ELT is a great thing, except when compared to a host
      > >     of improved technology that has replaced it.  It is a last resort,
      > >     but  in 2018 the emphasis should be on LAST.
      > >
      > >     That being said, it won't even be a last resort if the ground
      > >     dragging antennae has been ripped off by the grass at a poorly kept
      > >     strip.  My question concerning the T shaped antennae is a possible
      > >     effort to improve the viability of my ELT as a safety device.
      > >
      > >     Is there a reference you could refer a person with a goal of
      > >     building one  to for that type of antennae?
      > >
      > >
      > >     On Thursday, August 16, 2018 4:25 PM, Art Zemon 
      > wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >     I figure that my ELT is another layer of protection for keeping my
      > >     passengers and me alive. I also wear seat belts... and shoulder
      > >     harnesses, and I carry a small fire extinguisher... and I have a
      > >     steel firewall... well... you get the idea. Given the overall cost
      > >     of my airplane, the additional dollars for the ELT are pretty small.
      > >     If I crash, I figure that there is a pretty good chance that my 406
      > >     MHz ELT will survive and summon assistance. With luck, we'll still
      > >     be alive when help gets to us.
      > >
      > >     Also, I figure that I owe this to my passengers. I'm not making the
      > >     decision solely for myself.
      > >
      > >          -- Art Z.
      > >
      > >     On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 3:12 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III
      > >      >     > wrote:
      > >
      > >         GPS and UHF technologies changed the ball game.
      > >             Now, the ELT can REPORT your position to an
      > >             accuracy of a few feet. Moreover, the ability of
      > >             a UHF signal to propagate from unfriendly
      > >             environs is better. Combine this with improvements
      > >             in communications technologies and protocols,
      > >             the probability of success for transmitting
      > >             and ELT signal are improved by orders of magnitude
      > >             both in terms of location and shortening response
      > >             time. If you fly a lot over ugly/remote terrain,
      > >             a modern GPS coupled ELT is a pretty good value.
      > >
      > >
      > >     --
      > >     https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ 
      > >
      > >     /"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."/
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au>
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
Date: 
Aug 17, 2018
      
      Barry,
      
      For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop  
      the 400lb engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee 
      that.  However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the 
      vertical stab where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over.  
      I have reviewed numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT 
      installation has a pretty good chance of remaining operational, provided 
      I mount the coax with sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a 
      buckling fuselage.  Even an inverted whip is correctly oriented for low 
      altitude (i.e. closer to the horizon) satellites to receive from a 
      =98donut=99 radiation pattern.  And, no matter which Local 
      User Terminal around the world receives the signal, the position will 
      still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in near real 
      time.  The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W and 
      randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of being 
      received and relayed by at least one satellite.
      
      I don=99t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on 
      this forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point 
      of view, I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste 
      of time and money.  Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical 
      Coordinator for the Australian RCC, plus many more years as an 
      Operations Officer, then SAR Officer and SAR instructor have proven time 
      and time again to me the value of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded 
      GPS.  Crashed aircraft are incredibly difficult to see from the air when 
      moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles a minute.  Yes ADS-B is a great 
      starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for example, you have an 
      electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B output (smoke and 
      fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and becomes a crash 
      situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan can easily 
      delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival time.  I can 
      tell you from first hand experience in the RCC that it is very 
      distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few 
      hours.  It is even worse for the family left behind to realise that you 
      might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly 
      where to look.  In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of 
      Air Navigation lost his son in a light aircraft crash.  A small piece of 
      media misinformation meant a critical piece of search intelligence was 
      overlooked.  The pilot and passenger were located some months later in a 
      follow-on search funded by the father, only to find that his son had 
      survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a week after the 
      crash before succumbing to exposure.
      
      It=99s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and 
      as aviators we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared.  The 
      mandate is there for good reason, so we should install the ELT 
      correctly, register and maintain it  it=99s definitely 
      not worth risking your life to neglect the ELT / PLB.  And, carry a 
      jumper :-)  The priorities of survival are Protection (from the 
      elements), Location (signalling devices, fires etc), Water, Food 
       in that order.  We can survive for three days without water and 30 days 
      without food, but who would want to do that?  I=99d rather get 
      outta there.
      
      Kind regards, Stu
      
      > On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE  wrote:
      > 
      > Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
      > So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
      > When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier 
      between the ELT antenna and the sky. 
      > Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
      > And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz 
      Stab wing tips being the best location.
      > Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless.  They are usually 
      in a fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery.  They are an 
      FAA Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
      > Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal 
      Locating Transmitter).
      > 
      > Choose wisely Grasshopper,
      > 
      > Barry
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
From: 
Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net>
Date: 
Aug 17, 2018
      
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        A message with no text/plain MIME section was received.
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      --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found ---
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 17, 2018
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
      
      thanks bob and everyone. i think everyone can say they learned something.
       for sure i will raise my elt so the base is at window level. my mounting
      area is easily accessable and changes to the bracket   are not difficult. i
      think i will mount the antenna and contact the proper authorities before a
      test and see what it does!
       thanks again.
       bob noffs
      
      On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 4:40 AM Werner Schneider  wrote:
      
      > Hello Ken and Art,
      >
      > I can confirm the 406 does work, I had a friend of mine where the plane
      > flipped over on an emergency landing
      >
      >
      > His antenna was on the top before the fin
      >
      >
      > and even being inverted and antenna partly damaged the SAR helicopter was
      > on site in a very short time!
      >
      > Cheers Werner
      >
      > On 17.08.2018 00:16, Ken Ryan wrote:
      >
      > Art, your thinking is correct. To say modern 406 ELTs are no good is a
      > statement that cannot be rationally justified.
      >
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
From: 
Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Date: 
Aug 17, 2018
      
      
      The debate is somewhat charged in the US because you have 121.5 ELTs 
      that are still legal for install, as well as the 406 ELTs.  The antenna 
      needs are different. IMHO there is too much focus on aircraft either 
      remaining upright, or flipping on their backs. While those may be the 
      majority of cases. I've seen enough wrecks where it isn't the 
      case...such as stall spin accidents, CFIT accidents. So position that is 
      protected from external damage has some value, but is hard to predict.
      406 ELTs more likely need brand specific antennas. A few do have built 
      in GPS, but tend to be very pricey. Far more have ability to have a GPS 
      connected. The differences in what is needed for a digital 406 burst 
      certainly are not optimal with a VHF com antenna. I don't expect a very 
      high percentage of 406 ELTs with embedded GPS, because AFAIK they all 
      have 4 figure price tags.
      Only the builder can evaluate the type of flying planned and the optimal 
      location on the airframe. All evaluations have to consider that we 
      cannot predict the orientation of the airframe after the crash. I've 
      even seen one where the airframe was intact, occupants survived, while 
      the airframe was embedded at about a 45 degree angle into fairly hard 
      dirt on airport.
      
      On 8/17/2018 4:58 AM, bob noffs wrote:
      > thanks bob and everyone. i think everyone can say they learned something.
      >  for sure i will raise my elt so the base is at window level. my 
      > mounting area is easily accessable and changes to the bracket are not 
      > difficult. i think i will mount the antenna and contact the proper 
      > authorities before a test and see what it does!
      >  thanks again.
      >  bob noffs
      > 
      > On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 4:40 AM Werner Schneider  > wrote:
      > 
      >     Hello Ken and Art,
      > 
      >     I can confirm the 406 does work, I had a friend of mine where the
      >     plane flipped over on an emergency landing
      > 
      > 
      >     His antenna was on the top before the fin
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 17, 2018
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
      
      Our Rocket snapped the ELT antenna off at the base when it flipped upside
      down after catching a fencepost. JRCC called the airport manager within
      five minutes with the aircraft registration and position. Kinda spooky.
      
      On Aug 17, 2018 00:22, "Stuart Hutchison" 
      wrote:
      
      Barry,
      
      For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop  the
       400lb
      engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that.
      However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical stab
      where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over.  I have reviewed
      numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty
      good chance of remaining operational, provided I mount the coax with
      sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a buckling fuselage.  Even an
      inverted whip is correctly oriented for low altitude (i.e. closer to the
      horizon) satellites to receive from a =98donut=99 radiation pat
      tern.  And, no
      matter which Local User Terminal around the world receives the signal, the
      position will still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in
      near real time.  The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at
      5W and randomised
      around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of being received and
      relayed by at least one satellite.
      
      I don=99t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on th
      is
      forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of view,
      I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time and
      money.  Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the
      Australian RCC, plus many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR
      Officer and SAR instructor have proven time and time again to me the value
      of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded GPS.  Crashed aircraft are incredibly
      difficult to see from the air when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles
      a minute.  Yes ADS-B is a great starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for
      example, you have an electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B
      output (smoke and fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and
      becomes a crash situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan
      can easily delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival
      time.  I can tell you from first hand experience in the RCC that it is very
      distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few
      hours.  It is even worse for the family left behind to realise that you
      might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly where
      to look.  In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of Air
      Navigation lost his son in a light aircraft crash.  A small piece of media
      misinformation meant a critical piece of search intelligence was
      overlooked.  The pilot and passenger were located some months later in a
      follow-on search funded by the father, only to find that his son had
      survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a week after the
      crash before succumbing to exposure.
      
      It=99s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and as a
      viators
      we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared.  The mandate is
      there for good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly, register and
      maintain it  it=99s definitely not worth risking your life t
      o neglect the
      ELT / PLB.  And, carry a jumper :-)  The priorities of survival are
      Protection (from the elements), Location (signalling devices, fires etc),
      Water, Food  in that order.  We can survive for three days without
       water
      and 30 days without food, but who would want to do that?  I=99d rathe
      r get
      outta there.
      
      Kind regards, Stu
      
      On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE  wrote:
      
      Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
      So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
      When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier
      between the ELT antenna and the sky.
      Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
      And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab
      wing tips being the best location.
      Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless.  They are usually in a
      fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery.  They are an FAA
      Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
      Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal Locating
      Transmitter).
      
      Choose wisely Grasshopper,
      
      Barry
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 17, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
      
      At 08:32 AM 8/17/2018, you wrote:
      >
      >The debate is somewhat charged in the US because you have 121.5 ELTs 
      >that are still legal for install, as well as the 406 ELTs.  The 
      >antenna needs are different. IMHO there is too much focus on 
      >aircraft either remaining upright, or flipping on their backs. While 
      >those may be the majority of cases. I've seen enough wrecks where it 
      >isn't the case...such as stall spin accidents, CFIT accidents. So 
      >position that is protected from external damage has some value, but 
      >is hard to predict.
      
          A study of crash outcomes conducted some years
          back concluded that ELTs mounted in the tail with
          antennas forward of the vertical fin had a high
          order probability of desired performance after
          a crash.
      
          Combined in the new digital geo-location features,
          the 406Mhz GPS enhanced locator will be orders
          of magnitude more successful than any 121.5/243
          system.
      
          The locator beacon as originally conceived and
          placed into service was never envisioned for
          general aviation application . . . it was a military
          tool that served it's purpose well when the
          theater of operations was limited and the
          first responders were likely to be well equipped
          with direction finding equipment.
      
          The 121.5/243 devices were shoe-horned into GA
          by well meaning folks who had never had find
          a radio needle in a national park sized haystack.
          But in spite of limitations, it was better than
          nothing.
      
          The big problem was that the better-than-nothing
          system became embedded into a bureaucratic morass
          that made it very difficult to upgrade as new
          technologies emerged. General aviation is the last
          bastion of amplitude modulated radios on the surface
          of the planet!  Our radios could be lighter, cheaper
          and much more suited to task had we been freed of
          the AM albatross decades ago.
      
          Mount the 406 system in the tail, put the antenna just forward
          of the vertical fin and you'll enjoy a high probability
          of performance success should the need arise.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
skywagon(at)charter.net
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna - Question for Bob
Date: 
Aug 17, 2018
      
      =0A=0ABob,=0A=0AAbout "portable" 121.5/406 antennas....=0A=0AI
       would like to construct a portable antenna that in the event of=0Asurvi
      ving a mishap, one could remove the ELT, take outside to a=0Afavorable l
      ocation, connect the portable antenna and have a better=0Achance of bein
      g found earlier.=0A=0AI know this is a dual frequency design, but it
       has been too long=0Asince I studied and made lower frequency antennas,
       so I am asking if=0Ayou could suggest a construction design.=0A=0AI
       believe the 406 part should be cut for 3/4 wavelength, but the=0Aloadin
      g coil size and position for the 121.5 is vague. I am assuming=0Aabout 1
      /3 up the whip so as to not interfere with the max. current=0Awave point
       of the 406 signal.=0A=0AAlso, should the whip have a small circular
       ground plane attached to=0Athe BNC connector on the base.?=0A=0AIf y
      ou have ideas on this little antenna, I would very much like to=0Aview t
      hem.... Dave=0A=0A-----------------------------------------From: "Stu
      art Hutchison" =0ATo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com=0ACc: =0ASent: Fri
      day August 17 2018 12:19:53AM=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: elt ante
      nna=0A=0A Barry,  =0A    For sure many aircraft finish upside down after
       a sudden stop =0Athe 400lb engine up front of my tailwheel air
      craft will almost=0Aguarantee that. However, I've installed the whip ant
      enna just forward=0Aof the vertical stab where it should be reasonably p
      rotected from a=0Atip over. I have reviewed numerous RV and Rocket wreck
      s and think my=0AELT installation has a pretty good chance of remaining
       operational,=0Aprovided I mount the coax with sufficient slack and flex
      ibility to=0Awithstand a buckling fuselage. Even an inverted whip is cor
      rectly=0Aoriented for low altitude (i.e. closer to the horizon) satellit
      es to=0Areceive from a =98donut=99 radiation pattern. And, n
      o matter which=0ALocal User Terminal around the world receives the signa
      l, the position=0Awill still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR res
      ponse in near=0Areal time. The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds l
      ong at 5W and=0Arandomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good
       chance of=0Abeing received and relayed by at least one satellite.   =0A
          I don=99t mean to preach and there are a great many wise peopl
      e on=0Athis forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's
       point=0Aof view, I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT i
      s a=0Awaste of time and money. Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tacti
      cal=0ACoordinator for the Australian RCC, plus many more years as an=0AO
      perations Officer, then SAR Officer and SAR instructor have proven=0Atim
      e and time again to me the value of ELTs, especially 406 with=0Aembedded
       GPS. Crashed aircraft are incredibly difficult to see from=0Athe air wh
      en moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles a minute. Yes=0AADS-B is a g
      reat starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for example,=0Ayou have an el
      ectrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B=0Aoutput (smoke and f
      umes or inflight fire that requires load shedding)=0Aand becomes a crash
       situation, just a few minutes of cruising off=0Aflight plan can easily
       delay location and rescue way past your=0Aovernight survival time. I ca
      n tell you from first hand experience in=0Athe RCC that it is very distr
      essing for rescuers to miss you by just a=0Afew hundred feet or a few ho
      urs. It is even worse for the family left=0Abehind to realise that you m
      ight have been alive long enough to rescue=0Aif we had known exactly whe
      re to look. In fact, a former Senior Naval=0AOfficer at our School of Ai
      r Navigation lost his son in a light=0Aaircraft crash. A small piece of
       media misinformation meant a critical=0Apiece of search intelligence wa
      s overlooked. The pilot and passenger=0Awere located some months later i
      n a follow-on search funded by the=0Afather, only to find that his son h
      ad survived with a broken leg for=0Awhat was believed to be a week after
       the crash before succumbing to=0Aexposure.   =0A    It=99s a morb
      id subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and=0Aas aviators we nee
      d to be properly trained, equipped and prepared. The=0Amandate is there
       for good reason, so we should install the ELT=0Acorrectly, register and
       maintain it  it=99s definitely not worth=0Arisking your
       life to neglect the ELT / PLB. And, carry a jumper :-)=0AThe priorities
       of survival are Protection (from the elements),=0ALocation (signalling
       devices, fires etc), Water, Food  in that=0Aorder. We can surv
      ive for three days without water and 30 days without=0Afood, but who wou
      ld want to do that? I=99d rather get outta there.   =0A    Kind re
      gards, Stu   =0A   On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE  wrote:  =0A    Ma
      ny, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.  =0ASo top
       mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.  =0AWhen an a
      luminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier=0Abetween t
      he ELT antenna and the sky.   Wing Tips usually have the=0Aleast amount
       of damage from a crash.   And, they are usually the=0Afarest away from
       the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab wing tips being the=0Abest location.   Pe
      rsonally I feel ELT's are one step above useless.=0AThey are usually in
       a fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead=0Abattery. They are an
       FAA Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue=0Adevice.   Consider a Pers
      onal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT=0A(Personal Locating Transmitte
      r).   =0A   Choose wisely Grasshopper,   =0A  =0A=0ALinks:=0A------=0A[1
      ] mailto:flyadive(at)gmail.com=0A
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 17, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna - Question for Bob
      
      At 10:14 AM 8/17/2018, you wrote:
      
      >Bob,
      >
      >About "portable" 121.5/406 antennas....
      >
      >I would like to construct a portable antenna that in the event of 
      >surviving a mishap, one could remove the ELT, take outside to a 
      >favorable location, connect the portable antenna and have a better 
      >chance of being found earlier.
      >
      >I know this is a dual frequency design, but it has been too long 
      >since I studied and made lower frequency antennas, so I am asking if 
      >you could suggest a construction design.
      >
      >I believe the 406 part should be cut for 3/4 wavelength, but the 
      >loading coil size and position for the 121.5 is vague.  I am 
      >assuming about 1/3 up the whip so as to not interfere with the max. 
      >current wave point of the 406 signal.
      
      Emacs!
      
      
      It would be interesting to get a lessons-learned dump from
      an antenna expert . . . anyone else out there with additional
      input?
      
      I presume antennas like this one start with a 1/4 wave at
      highest frequency of interest, add a loading/trap coil
      at the top tailored to resonate at 406 with the parasitic
      capacitance afforded by the radiators attached at each
      end, then trim the top segment for best match at lowest
      frequency of interest.
      
      No doubt the resonance effects are interactive so it
      would take some fiddling to optimize the design. Obviously,
      an oversized 'hand held' is not an idealized ground plane
      so should the optimizing studies be done using a rough
      mock-up of the ELT's 'ground plane' signature.
      
      I've got a new vector network analyzer that I've not
      taken out of the box yet . . . too many irons in the
      fire. But I'm hoping the tool will open some new windows
      on my bag of tricks . . . the only thing I really miss
      about my tenure at Beech was access to that RF lab!
      
      
      >Also, should the whip have a small circular ground plane attached to 
      >the BNC connector on the base.?
      >
      >If you have ideas on this little antenna, I would very much like to 
      >view them.... Dave
      
      I think that given the 'dire straits' of conditions
      that would prompt hand-held operation, I'd build
      a 406 quarter wave on a coax connector and call it
      good. As others have pointed out here, the ability
      of the 406 satellites to sniff out a weak signal
      is really good.  If you're out on the ground with
      a 406 device in your hands, the 1/4 wave whip is
      going to get the performance you need.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 17, 2018
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
      
      My ELT (Kannad Integra) can be removed from the aircraft while continuing
      to transmit.
      http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/kannad_integra.php
      
      
      On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 7:12 AM Sebastien  wrote:
      
      > Our Rocket snapped the ELT antenna off at the base when it flipped upside
      > down after catching a fencepost. JRCC called the airport manager within
      > five minutes with the aircraft registration and position. Kinda spooky.
      >
      > On Aug 17, 2018 00:22, "Stuart Hutchison" 
      > wrote:
      >
      > Barry,
      >
      > For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop  t
      he 400lb
      > engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that.
      > However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical sta
      b
      > where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over.  I have reviewed
      > numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty
      > good chance of remaining operational, provided I mount the coax with
      > sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a buckling fuselage.  Even 
      an
      > inverted whip is correctly oriented for low altitude (i.e. closer to the
      > horizon) satellites to receive from a =98donut=99 radiation p
      attern.  And, no
      > matter which Local User Terminal around the world receives the signal, th
      e
      > position will still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in
      > near real time.  The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W
      > and randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of
      > being received and relayed by at least one satellite.
      >
      > I don=99t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on 
      this
      > forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of view
      ,
      > I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time a
      nd
      > money.  Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the
      > Australian RCC, plus many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR
      > Officer and SAR instructor have proven time and time again to me the valu
      e
      > of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded GPS.  Crashed aircraft are incredib
      ly
      > difficult to see from the air when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical mil
      es
      > a minute.  Yes ADS-B is a great starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for
      > example, you have an electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B
      > output (smoke and fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and
      > becomes a crash situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan
      > can easily delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival
      > time.  I can tell you from first hand experience in the RCC that it is ve
      ry
      > distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few
      > hours.  It is even worse for the family left behind to realise that you
      > might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly where
      > to look.  In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of Air
      > Navigation lost his son in a light aircraft crash.  A small piece of medi
      a
      > misinformation meant a critical piece of search intelligence was
      > overlooked.  The pilot and passenger were located some months later in a
      > follow-on search funded by the father, only to find that his son had
      > survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a week after the
      > crash before succumbing to exposure.
      >
      > It=99s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and as
       aviators
      > we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared.  The mandate is
      > there for good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly, register a
      nd
      > maintain it  it=99s definitely not worth risking your life
       to neglect the
      > ELT / PLB.  And, carry a jumper :-)  The priorities of survival are
      > Protection (from the elements), Location (signalling devices, fires etc),
      > Water, Food  in that order.  We can survive for three days witho
      ut water
      > and 30 days without food, but who would want to do that?  I=99d rat
      her get
      > outta there.
      >
      > Kind regards, Stu
      >
      > On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE  wrote:
      >
      > Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
      > So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
      > When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier
      > between the ELT antenna and the sky.
      > Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
      > And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab
      > wing tips being the best location.
      > Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless.  They are usually in 
      a
      > fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery.  They are an FAA
      > Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
      > Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal Locatin
      g
      > Transmitter).
      >
      > Choose wisely Grasshopper,
      >
      > Barry
      >
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Jared Yates <email(at)jaredyates.com>
Date: 
Aug 17, 2018
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
      
      Somebody should write a magazine article about all of this...
      
      On August 17, 2018 12:44:22 Ken Ryan  wrote:
      > My ELT (Kannad Integra) can be removed from the aircraft while continuing 
      > to transmit.
      > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/kannad_integra.php
      >
      >
      > On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 7:12 AM Sebastien  wrote:
      > Our Rocket snapped the ELT antenna off at the base when it flipped upside 
      > down after catching a fencepost. JRCC called the airport manager within 
      > five minutes with the aircraft registration and position. Kinda spooky.
      >
      > On Aug 17, 2018 00:22, "Stuart Hutchison"  
      > wrote:
      >
      > Barry,
      >
      > For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop  the 400lb 
      > engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that.  
      > However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical stab 
      > where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over.  I have reviewed 
      > numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty 
      > good chance of remaining operational, provided I mount the coax with 
      > sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a buckling fuselage.  Even an 
      > inverted whip is correctly orientedfor low altitude (i.e. closer to the 
      > horizon) satellites to receive from a donut radiation pattern.  And, no 
      > matter which Local User Terminal around the world receives the signal, the 
      > position will still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in 
      > near real time.  The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W and 
      > randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of being 
      > received and relayed by at least one satellite.
      >
      >
      > I dont mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on this 
      > forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of view, 
      > I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time and 
      > money.  Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the 
      > Australian RCC, plus many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR 
      > Officer and SAR instructor have proven time and time again to me the value 
      > of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded GPS.  Crashed aircraft are incredibly 
      > difficult to see from the air when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles 
      > a minute.  Yes ADS-B is a great starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for 
      > example, you have an electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B 
      > output (smoke and fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and 
      > becomes a crash situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan 
      > can easily delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival time. 
      >  I can tell you from first hand experience in the RCC that it is very 
      > distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few 
      > hours.  It is even worse for the family left behind to realise that you 
      > might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly where 
      > to look.  In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of Air 
      > Navigation lost his son in a light aircraft crash.  A small piece of media 
      > misinformation meant a critical piece of search intelligence was 
      > overlooked.  The pilot and passenger were located some months later in a 
      > follow-on search funded by the father, only to find that his son had 
      > survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a week after the 
      > crash before succumbing to exposure.
      >
      >
      > Its a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and as aviators 
      > we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared.  The mandate is 
      > there for good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly, register and 
      > maintain it  its definitely not worth risking your life to neglect the 
      > ELT / PLB.  And, carry a jumper :-)  The priorities of survival are 
      > Protection (from the elements), Location (signalling devices, fires etc), 
      > Water, Food  in that order.  We can survive for three days without water 
      > and 30 days without food, but who would want to do that?  Id rather get 
      > outta there.
      >
      >
      > Kind regards, Stu
      >
      >> On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE  wrote:
      >>
      >> Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
      >> So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
      >> When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier 
      >> between the ELT antenna and the sky.
      >> Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
      >> And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab 
      >> wing tips being the best location.
      >> Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless.  They are usually in a 
      >> fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery.  They are an FAA 
      >> Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
      >> Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal Locating 
      >> Transmitter).
      >>
      >> Choose wisely Grasshopper,
      >>
      >> Barry
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 17, 2018
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
      
      Hey Stu;-)
      
      WOW!  A 400 Lb engine!!!
      What engine?
      What plane?
      
      Is your tail dragger made with an aluminum fuselage?  If so then what about
      the airframe blocking the signal.  And as you said, the pattern would be at
      a low angle.
      BUT!  No matter where you place the antenna there will always be a signal
      blockage issue.
      
      HEY!  How about a Rocket Propelled ELT Unit?  Actually 2 units - One on the
      top one on the bottom and each unit will be rocket propelled to shoot out
      100 Ft.  Instead of running a coax the entire unit shoots Up into a Tree,
      hooks on with treble fish hooks and transmit the signal.
      
      I can guarantee the treble fish hook idea works!
      
      Barry
      
      
      On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 3:22 AM Stuart Hutchison <
      stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au> wrote:
      
      > Barry,
      >
      > For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop  t
      he 400lb
      > engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that.
      > However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical sta
      b
      > where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over.  I have reviewed
      > numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty
      > good chance of remaining operational, provided I mount the coax with
      > sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a buckling fuselage.  Even 
      an
      > inverted whip is correctly oriented for low altitude (i.e. closer to the
      > horizon) satellites to receive from a =98donut=99 radiation p
      attern.  And, no
      > matter which Local User Terminal around the world receives the signal, th
      e
      > position will still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in
      > near real time.  The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W
      > and randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of
      > being received and relayed by at least one satellite.
      >
      > I don=99t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on 
      this
      > forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of view
      ,
      > I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time a
      nd
      > money.  Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the
      > Australian RCC, plus many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR
      > Officer and SAR instructor have proven time and time again to me the valu
      e
      > of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded GPS.  Crashed aircraft are incredib
      ly
      > difficult to see from the air when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical mil
      es
      > a minute.  Yes ADS-B is a great starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for
      > example, you have an electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B
      > output (smoke and fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and
      > becomes a crash situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan
      > can easily delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival
      > time.  I can tell you from first hand experience in the RCC that it is ve
      ry
      > distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few
      > hours.  It is even worse for the family left behind to realise that you
      > might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly where
      > to look.  In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of Air
      > Navigation lost his son in a light aircraft crash.  A small piece of medi
      a
      > misinformation meant a critical piece of search intelligence was
      > overlooked.  The pilot and passenger were located some months later in a
      > follow-on search funded by the father, only to find that his son had
      > survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a week after the
      > crash before succumbing to exposure.
      >
      > It=99s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and as
       aviators
      > we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared.  The mandate is
      > there for good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly, register a
      nd
      > maintain it  it=99s definitely not worth risking your life
       to neglect the
      > ELT / PLB.  And, carry a jumper :-)  The priorities of survival are
      > Protection (from the elements), Location (signalling devices, fires etc),
      > Water, Food  in that order.  We can survive for three days witho
      ut water
      > and 30 days without food, but who would want to do that?  I=99d rat
      her get
      > outta there.
      >
      > Kind regards, Stu
      >
      > On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE  wrote:
      >
      > Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
      > So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
      > When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier
      > between the ELT antenna and the sky.
      > Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
      > And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab
      > wing tips being the best location.
      > Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless.  They are usually in 
      a
      > fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery.  They are an FAA
      > Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
      > Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal Locatin
      g
      > Transmitter).
      >
      > Choose wisely Grasshopper,
      >
      > Barry
      >
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
From: 
"eschlanser" <eschlanser(at)yahoo.com>
Date: 
Aug 17, 2018
      
      
      > Also, as a former principle RAAF SAR Officer (USCG and USAF trained), I should
      add a few comments
      > 
      > I have a non-GPS Kannad Compact ELT connected to this antenna, which has frangible
      switches to activate automatically in a crash.  I also have a GPS PLB, which
      I can activate if I am still alive or become separated from the aircraft
      (such as after ditching perhaps).
      > 
      > Regards, Stu
      
      
      Stu,
      
      Would you recommend a specific GPS PLB?
      
      Thanks,
      Eric
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482495#482495
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Date: 
Aug 17, 2018
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
      
      Barry
      
      Do you still expect that somebody takes you seriously? =F0=9F=98=8E
      
      Cheers
      Carlos 
      
      Enviado do meu iPhone
      
      No dia 17/08/2018, =C3-s 13:48, FLYaDIVE  escreveu:
      
      > 
      > Hey Stu;-)
      > 
      > WOW!  A 400 Lb engine!!!
      > What engine?
      > What plane?
      > 
      > Is your tail dragger made with an aluminum fuselage?  If so then what abou
      t the airframe blocking the signal.  And as you said, the pattern would be a
      t a low angle.
      > BUT!  No matter where you place the antenna there will always be a signal b
      lockage issue.
      > 
      > HEY!  How about a Rocket Propelled ELT Unit?  Actually 2 units - One on th
      e top one on the bottom and each unit will be rocket propelled to shoot out 1
      00 Ft.  Instead of running a coax the entire unit shoots Up into a Tree, hoo
      ks on with treble fish hooks and transmit the signal.
      > 
      > I can guarantee the treble fish hook idea works!
      > 
      > Barry
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      >> On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 3:22 AM Stuart Hutchison <stuart@stuarthutchison.
      com.au> wrote:
      >> Barry,
      >> 
      >> For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop  t
      he 400lb engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that
      .  However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical sta
      b where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over.  I have reviewed n
      umerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty good
       chance of remaining operational, provided I mount the coax with sufficient s
      lack and flexibility to withstand a buckling fuselage.  Even an inverted whi
      p is correctly oriented for low altitude (i.e. closer to the horizon) satell
      ites to receive from a =98donut=99 radiation pattern.  And, no m
      atter which Local User Terminal around the world receives the signal, the po
      sition will still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in near r
      eal time.  The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W and random
      ised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of being received a
      nd relayed by at least one satellite.
      >> 
      >> I don=99t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on t
      his forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of vie
      w, I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time a
      nd money.  Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the A
      ustralian RCC, plus many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR Offic
      er and SAR instructor have proven time and time again to me the value of ELT
      s, especially 406 with embedded GPS.  Crashed aircraft are incredibly diffic
      ult to see from the air when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles a minu
      te.  Yes ADS-B is a great starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for example,
       you have an electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B output (sm
      oke and fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and becomes a cr
      ash situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan can easily del
      ay location and rescue way past your overnight survival time.  I can tell yo
      u from first hand experience in the RCC that it is very distressing for resc
      uers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few hours.  It is even wors
      e for the family left behind to realise that you might have been alive long e
      nough to rescue if we had known exactly where to look.  In fact, a former Se
      nior Naval Officer at our School of Air Navigation lost his son in a light a
      ircraft crash.  A small piece of media misinformation meant a critical piece
       of search intelligence was overlooked.  The pilot and passenger were locate
      d some months later in a follow-on search funded by the father, only to find
       that his son had survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a w
      eek after the crash before succumbing to exposure.
      >> 
      >> It=99s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and as
       aviators we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared.  The mandat
      e is there for good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly, register
       and maintain it  it=99s definitely not worth risking your li
      fe to neglect the ELT / PLB.  And, carry a jumper :-)  The priorities of sur
      vival are Protection (from the elements), Location (signalling devices, fire
      s etc), Water, Food  in that order.  We can survive for three days w
      ithout water and 30 days without food, but who would want to do that?  I
      =99d rather get outta there.
      >> 
      >> Kind regards, Stu
      >> 
      >>> On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE  wrote:
      >>> 
      >>> Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
      >>> So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
      >>> When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier be
      tween the ELT antenna and the sky. 
      >>> Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
      >>> And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab
       wing tips being the best location.
      >>> Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless.  They are usually in
       a fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery.  They are an FAA R
      eg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
      >>> Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal Locati
      ng Transmitter).
      >>> 
      >>> Choose wisely Grasshopper,
      >>> 
      >>> Barry
      >> 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com>
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
Date: 
Aug 17, 2018
      
      
      A Lycoming O-360 weighs about 260lbs; the IO-470F in the front of one of my airplanes
      weighs 399lbs, according to the manufacturer.
      
      
      > 
      > Hey Stu;-)
      > 
      > WOW!  A 400 Lb engine!!!
      > What engine?
      > What plane?
      > 
      > Is your tail dragger made with an aluminum fuselage?  If so then what about the
      airframe blocking the signal.  And as you said, the pattern would be at a low
      angle.
      > BUT!  No matter where you place the antenna there will always be a signal blockage
      issue.
      > 
      > HEY!  How about a Rocket Propelled ELT Unit?  Actually 2 units - One on the top
      one on the bottom and each unit will be rocket propelled to shoot out 100 Ft.
      Instead of running a coax the entire unit shoots Up into a Tree, hooks on
      with treble fish hooks and transmit the signal.
      > 
      > I can guarantee the treble fish hook idea works!
      > 
      > Barry
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 3:22 AM Stuart Hutchison 
      wrote:
      > Barry,
      > 
      > For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop  the 400lb engine
      up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that.  However, I've
      installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical stab where it should
      be reasonably protected from a tip over.  I have reviewed numerous RV and Rocket
      wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty good chance of remaining
      operational, provided I mount the coax with sufficient slack and flexibility
      to withstand a buckling fuselage.  Even an inverted whip is correctly oriented
      for low altitude (i.e. closer to the horizon) satellites to receive from a donut
      radiation pattern.  And, no matter which Local User Terminal around the world
      receives the signal, the position will still be re-routed to the correct RCC
      for SAR response in near real time.  The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds
      long at 5W and randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good
      chance of being received and relayed by at least one satellite.
      > 
      > I dont mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on this forum, but
      respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of view, I couldn't
      disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time and money.  Years
      of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the Australian RCC, plus
      many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR Officer and SAR instructor
      have proven time and time again to me the value of ELTs, especially 406 with
      embedded GPS.  Crashed aircraft are incredibly difficult to see from the air
      when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles a minute.  Yes ADS-B is a great
      starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for example, you have an electrical issue
      late one afternoon that stops ADS-B output (smoke and fumes or inflight fire
      that requires load shedding) and becomes a crash situation, just a few minutes
      of cruising off flight plan can easily delay location and rescue way past your
      overnight survival time.  I can tell you from first hand experience in the
      RCC that it is very distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred
      feet or a few hours.  It is even worse for the family left behind to realise
      that you might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly
      where to look.  In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of Air Navigation
      lost his son in a light aircraft crash.  A small piece of media misinformation
      meant a critical piece of search intelligence was overlooked.  The pilot
      and passenger were located some months later in a follow-on search funded
      by the father, only to find that his son had survived with a broken leg for what
      was believed to be a week after the crash before succumbing to exposure.
      > 
      > Its a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and as aviators we
      need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared.  The mandate is there for
      good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly, register and maintain it
      its definitely not worth risking your life to neglect the ELT / PLB.  And, carry
      a jumper :-)  The priorities of survival are Protection (from the elements),
      Location (signalling devices, fires etc), Water, Food  in that order.  We can
      survive for three days without water and 30 days without food, but who would
      want to do that?  Id rather get outta there.
      > 
      > Kind regards, Stu
      > 
      >> On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE  wrote:
      >> 
      >> Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
      >> So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
      >> When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier between
      the ELT antenna and the sky. 
      >> Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
      >> And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab wing
      tips being the best location.
      >> Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless.  They are usually in a fixed
      location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery.  They are an FAA Reg, not
      a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
      >> Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal Locating Transmitter).
      >> 
      >> Choose wisely Grasshopper,
      >> 
      >> Barry
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
don van santen <donvansanten(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 17, 2018
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
      
      The angle valve IO360 is 40 lbs heavier yet. Over the years this list has
      been populated by a few loud mouthed " know it alls". If we wait a while
      the current one will vanish as well
      
      On Aug 17, 2018 14:02, "Alec Myers"  wrote:
      
      
      A Lycoming O-360 weighs about 260lbs; the IO-470F in the front of one of my
      airplanes weighs 399lbs, according to the manufacturer.
      
      
      >
      > Hey Stu;-)
      >
      > WOW!  A 400 Lb engine!!!
      > What engine?
      > What plane?
      >
      > Is your tail dragger made with an aluminum fuselage?  If so then what
      about the airframe blocking the signal.  And as you said, the pattern would
      be at a low angle.
      > BUT!  No matter where you place the antenna there will always be a signal
      blockage issue.
      >
      > HEY!  How about a Rocket Propelled ELT Unit?  Actually 2 units - One on
      the top one on the bottom and each unit will be rocket propelled to shoot
      out 100 Ft.  Instead of running a coax the entire unit shoots Up into a
      Tree, hooks on with treble fish hooks and transmit the signal.
      >
      > I can guarantee the treble fish hook idea works!
      >
      > Barry
      >
      >
      > On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 3:22 AM Stuart Hutchison <
      stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au> wrote:
      > Barry,
      >
      > For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop  t
      he 400lb
      engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that.
      However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical stab
      where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over.  I have reviewed
      numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty
      good chance of remaining operational, provided I mount the coax with
      sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a buckling fuselage.  Even an
      inverted whip is correctly oriented for low altitude (i.e. closer to the
      horizon) satellites to receive from a =98donut=99 radiation pat
      tern.  And, no
      matter which Local User Terminal around the world receives the signal, the
      position will still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in
      near real time.  The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W and
      randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of being
      received and relayed by at !
       least one satellite.
      >
      > I don=99t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on 
      this
      forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of view,
      I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time and
      money.  Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the
      Australian RCC, plus many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR
      Officer and SAR instructor have proven time and time again to me the value
      of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded GPS.  Crashed aircraft are incredibly
      difficult to see from the air when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles
      a minute.  Yes ADS-B is a great starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for
      example, you have an electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B
      output (smoke and fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and
      becomes a crash situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan
      can easily delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival
      time.  I can tell you from!
      
        first hand experience in the RCC that it is very distressing for rescuers
      to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few hours.  It is even worse
      for the family left behind to realise that you might have been alive long
      enough to rescue if we had known exactly where to look.  In fact, a former
      Senior Naval Officer at our School of Air Navigation lost his son in a
      light aircraft crash.  A small piece of media misinformation meant a
      critical piece of search intelligence was overlooked.  The pilot and
      passenger were located some months later in a follow-on search funded by
      the father, only to find that his son had survived with a broken leg for
      what was believed to be a week after the crash before succumbing to
      exposure.
      >
      > It=99s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and as
      aviators we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared.  The
      mandate is there for good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly,
      register and maintain it  it=99s definitely not worth riskin
      g your life to
      neglect the ELT / PLB.  And, carry a jumper :-)  The priorities of survival
      are Protection (from the elements), Location (signalling devices, fires
      etc), Water, Food  in that order.  We can survive for three days w
      ithout
      water and 30 days without food, but who would want to do that?  I=99d
       rather
      get outta there.
      >
      > Kind regards, Stu
      >
      >> On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE  wrote:
      >>
      >> Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
      >> So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
      >> When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier
      between the ELT antenna and the sky.
      >> Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
      >> And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab
      wing tips being the best location.
      >> Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless.  They are usually in
      a fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery.  They are an FAA
      Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
      >> Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal
      Locating Transmitter).
      >>
      >> Choose wisely Grasshopper,
      >>
      >> Barry
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
From: 
John Morgensen <john(at)morgensen.com>
Date: 
Aug 17, 2018
      
      My thoughts as well.
      
      
      On 8/17/2018 2:34 PM, don van santen wrote:
      > The angle valve IO360 is 40 lbs heavier yet. Over the years this list 
      > has been populated by a few loud mouthed " know it alls". If we wait a 
      > while the current one will vanish as well
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 17, 2018
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
      
      Carlos:
      
      What don't you believe?
      
      
      :-)
      
      Barry
      
      Choose wisely Grasshopper
      
      
      On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 2:29 PM Carlos Trigo  wrote:
      
      > Barry
      >
      > Do you still expect that somebody takes you seriously? =F0=9F=98=8E
      >
      > Cheers
      > Carlos
      >
      > Enviado do meu iPhone
      >
      > No dia 17/08/2018, =C3-s 13:48, FLYaDIVE  escreveu:
      >
      >
      > Hey Stu;-)
      >
      > WOW!  A 400 Lb engine!!!
      > What engine?
      > What plane?
      >
      > Is your tail dragger made with an aluminum fuselage?  If so then what
      > about the airframe blocking the signal.  And as you said, the pattern wou
      ld
      > be at a low angle.
      > BUT!  No matter where you place the antenna there will always be a signal
      > blockage issue.
      >
      > HEY!  How about a Rocket Propelled ELT Unit?  Actually 2 units - One on
      > the top one on the bottom and each unit will be rocket propelled to shoot
      > out 100 Ft.  Instead of running a coax the entire unit shoots Up into a
      > Tree, hooks on with treble fish hooks and transmit the signal.
      >
      > I can guarantee the treble fish hook idea works!
      >
      > Barry
      >
      >
      > On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 3:22 AM Stuart Hutchison <
      > stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au> wrote:
      >
      >> Barry,
      >>
      >> For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop  
      the 400lb
      >> engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that.
      >> However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical st
      ab
      >> where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over.  I have reviewe
      d
      >> numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty
      >> good chance of remaining operational, provided I mount the coax with
      >> sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a buckling fuselage.  Even
       an
      >> inverted whip is correctly oriented for low altitude (i.e. closer to the
      >> horizon) satellites to receive from a =98donut=99 radiation 
      pattern.  And, no
      >> matter which Local User Terminal around the world receives the signal, t
      he
      >> position will still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in
      >> near real time.  The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W
      >> and randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of
      >> being received and relayed by at least one satellite.
      >>
      >> I don=99t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on
       this
      >> forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of vie
      w,
      >> I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time 
      and
      >> money.  Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the
      >> Australian RCC, plus many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR
      >> Officer and SAR instructor have proven time and time again to me the val
      ue
      >> of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded GPS.  Crashed aircraft are incredi
      bly
      >> difficult to see from the air when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical mi
      les
      >> a minute.  Yes ADS-B is a great starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, fo
      r
      >> example, you have an electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-
      B
      >> output (smoke and fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) an
      d
      >> becomes a crash situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight pla
      n
      >> can easily delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival
      >> time.  I can tell you from first hand experience in the RCC that it is v
      ery
      >> distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few
      >> hours.  It is even worse for the family left behind to realise that you
      >> might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly wher
      e
      >> to look.  In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of Air
      >> Navigation lost his son in a light aircraft crash.  A small piece of med
      ia
      >> misinformation meant a critical piece of search intelligence was
      >> overlooked.  The pilot and passenger were located some months later in a
      >> follow-on search funded by the father, only to find that his son had
      >> survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a week after the
      >> crash before succumbing to exposure.
      >>
      >> It=99s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and a
      s
      >> aviators we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared.  The
      >> mandate is there for good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly
      ,
      >> register and maintain it  it=99s definitely not worth ris
      king your life to
      >> neglect the ELT / PLB.  And, carry a jumper :-)  The priorities of survi
      val
      >> are Protection (from the elements), Location (signalling devices, fires
      >> etc), Water, Food  in that order.  We can survive for three day
      s without
      >> water and 30 days without food, but who would want to do that?  I
      =99d rather
      >> get outta there.
      >>
      >> Kind regards, Stu
      >>
      >> On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE  wrote:
      >>
      >> Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
      >> So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
      >> When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier
      >> between the ELT antenna and the sky.
      >> Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
      >> And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab
      >> wing tips being the best location.
      >> Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless.  They are usually in
      >> a fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery.  They are an FA
      A
      >> Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
      >> Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal
      >> Locating Transmitter).
      >>
      >> Choose wisely Grasshopper,
      >>
      >> Barry
      >>
      >>
      >>
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au>
Subject: 
Re: ELT antenna
Date: 
Aug 18, 2018
      
      
      Hi Eric.
      
      There are several good units on the market these days, provided you buy something
      that has been through the rigours of COSPAS/SARSAT certification.  My PLB is
      a GME MT410G, which also has a strobe light, a Built-In-Test function and 7-year
      battery replacement interval.  Its due for a battery replacement now, but
      Ill wait until I'm ready to resume flying.  McMurdo Fast Find and ACR ResQLink+
      are other good options, among others.  Which ever you choose, a Personal Locator
      Beacon (PLB) needs to 'come to hand readily at all times; so small size,
      lightweight, embedded GPS and a strobe are my top priorities.
      
      Stobes (flash tube or LED are both OK - both configured to last at least 24hrs)
      are visible from very long distances at night, especially in remote or ocean
      areas devoid of other light sources, and especially from SAR aircraft equipped
      with Electro-Optic & Infra-Red (EOIR) sensors or individual Night Vision Devices
      (NVD).  I could see illegal boat people using a Cyalume stick from a very
      long way off with NVD, so the value of a strobe shouldnt be underestimated.  Equally,
      one of the most effective search aids is a survival mirror.  Theyre cheap,
      small, lightweight and can be seen from about 20nm with the 'Mk1 eyeball'
      on a fine sunny day.  Both are a great way to cue a SAR platform to your exact
      position from a long way off  accelerating rescue.
      
      There are also other great products like SPOT, SpiderTracks and Garmin (was Delorme)
      InReach that typically use the Iridium network as personal or company tracking
      devices.  These are not COSPAS/SARSAT approved alternatives to ELT/PLB,
      but do post position updates to the Internet at user-defined intervals and also
      offer routine and emergency SMS functions.  While these are excellent products
      in their own right (and I will be using one when I cross the pond to NZ initially
      and hopefully Oshkosh at some point), they can potentially add middle-men
      to the SAR alerting equation.  In an emergency I would turn all the lights
      on so to speak  ELT, PLB first, for near real time SAR alerting purposes, then
      keep family and would be rescuers aware of your health and wellbeing via SMS
      updates.  Knowing help is on the way is also a huge survival motivator. 
      
      A humorous successful SAR situation I heard about was a guy in Canada whos PLB
      GPS position kept changing.  Turns out he was running flat out with two polar
      bears in chase.  He covered 11nm by the time the chopper arrived :-)
      
      Kind regards, Stu
      
      
      > On 18 Aug 2018, at 03:59, eschlanser  wrote:
      > 
      > 
      > 
      >> Also, as a former principle RAAF SAR Officer (USCG and USAF trained), I should
      add a few comments
      >> 
      >> I have a non-GPS Kannad Compact ELT connected to this antenna, which has frangible
      switches to activate automatically in a crash.  I also have a GPS PLB,
      which I can activate if I am still alive or become separated from the aircraft
      (such as after ditching perhaps).
      >> 
      >> Regards, Stu
      > 
      > 
      > Stu,
      > 
      > Would you recommend a specific GPS PLB?
      > 
      > Thanks,
      > Eric
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > Read this topic online here:
      > 
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482495#482495
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au>
Subject: 
Re: elt antenna
Date: 
Aug 18, 2018
      
      Yep.
      
      IO-540-C4B5 (260hp) narrow deck parallel valve, the lightest of the 
      Lycoming 6-cylinder options at 404lbs stock.  Angle value Lycoming 
      alternatives have a heavier crankcase and crankshaft to handle a higher 
      compression ratio, but make more power (300hp+)
      F1 Rocket
      Ally monocoque design, just like an RV.
      There is also a long hub, 80lb, three-blade scimitar prop hanging off 
      the front trying to tip me over :-(
      
      Upright the signal is essentially unencumbered.  Inverted the antenna 
      can =98see=99 out to the horizon, about 120 degrees both 
      left and right of the fuselage as well as upwards to some degree, 
      depending on the post-crash state.
      
      Unlike a GPS receiver needing unencumbered transmission paths to receive 
      a bunch of very weak signals from GNSS satellites in a fixable geometry; 
      an ELT punches out a 5W data burst that only needs to be received once, 
      by one satellite, to do its job.  I think it will work just fine.
      
      Stu
      
      
      > On 18 Aug 2018, at 03:48, FLYaDIVE  wrote:
      > 
      > 
      > Hey Stu;-)
      > 
      > WOW!  A 400 Lb engine!!!
      > What engine?
      > What plane?
      > 
      > Is your tail dragger made with an aluminum fuselage?  If so then what 
      about the airframe blocking the signal.  And as you said, the pattern 
      would be at a low angle.
      > BUT!  No matter where you place the antenna there will always be a 
      signal blockage issue.
      > 
      > HEY!  How about a Rocket Propelled ELT Unit?  Actually 2 units - One 
      on the top one on the bottom and each unit will be rocket propelled to 
      shoot out 100 Ft.  Instead of running a coax the entire unit shoots Up 
      into a Tree, hooks on with treble fish hooks and transmit the signal.
      > 
      > I can guarantee the treble fish hook idea works!
      > 
      > Barry
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 3:22 AM Stuart Hutchison 
      > 
      wrote:
      > Barry,
      > 
      > For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop  
      the 400lb engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee 
      that.  However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the 
      vertical stab where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over.  
      I have reviewed numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT 
      installation has a pretty good chance of remaining operational, provided 
      I mount the coax with sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a 
      buckling fuselage.  Even an inverted whip is correctly oriented for low 
      altitude (i.e. closer to the horizon) satellites to receive from a 
      =98donut=99 radiation pattern.  And, no matter which Local 
      User Terminal around the world receives the signal, the position will 
      still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in near real 
      time.  The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W and 
      randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of being 
      received and relayed by at least one satellite.
      > 
      > I don=99t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people 
      on this forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's 
      point of view, I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a 
      waste of time and money.  Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical 
      Coordinator for the Australian RCC, plus many more years as an 
      Operations Officer, then SAR Officer and SAR instructor have proven time 
      and time again to me the value of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded 
      GPS.  Crashed aircraft are incredibly difficult to see from the air when 
      moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles a minute.  Yes ADS-B is a great 
      starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for example, you have an 
      electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B output (smoke and 
      fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and becomes a crash 
      situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan can easily 
      delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival time.  I can 
      tell you from first hand experience in the RCC that it is very 
      distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few 
      hours.  It is even worse for the family left behind to realise that you 
      might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly 
      where to look.  In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of 
      Air Navigation lost his son in a light aircraft crash.  A small piece of 
      media misinformation meant a critical piece of search intelligence was 
      overlooked.  The pilot and passenger were located some months later in a 
      follow-on search funded by the father, only to find that his son had 
      survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a week after the 
      crash before succumbing to exposure.
      > 
      > It=99s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and 
      as aviators we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared.  The 
      mandate is there for good reason, so we should install the ELT 
      correctly, register and maintain it  it=99s definitely 
      not worth risking your life to neglect the ELT / PLB.  And, carry a 
      jumper :-)  The priorities of survival are Protection (from the 
      elements), Location (signalling devices, fires etc), Water, Food 
       in that order.  We can survive for three days without water and 30 days 
      without food, but who would want to do that?  I=99d rather get 
      outta there.
      > 
      > Kind regards, Stu
      > 
      >> On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE > wrote:
      >> 
      >> Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
      >> So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
      >> When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier 
      between the ELT antenna and the sky. 
      >> Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
      >> And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz 
      Stab wing tips being the best location.
      >> Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless.  They are usually 
      in a fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery.  They are an 
      FAA Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
      >> Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal 
      Locating Transmitter).
      >> 
      >> Choose wisely Grasshopper,
      >> 
      >> Barry
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com>
Date: 
Aug 18, 2018
Subject: 
Re: ELT antenna
      
      Greetings All,
      
      If anyone is interested in a 121.5/406 MHz (ARTEX ELT PORTABLE ANTENNA
      110-775 - search on aircraft spruce), I have one I'm not going to use.  I
      was going to ebay it but I'll take a reasonable offer.
      
      I also have several dual band monopoles I will not be using (ARTEX
      A3-06-2892-1 Black TSO'd for, and delivered with the ARTEX ELT 345, and two
      equivalent, but white, RAMI AV-200s) that are available to interested
      parties.
      
      I got these while experimenting with different approaches to the dual-band
      antenna problem when I upgraded my ELT in my Longeze.  Since it's a plastic
      airplane, I have more options than others will.  I decided (regardless of
      the regulations issue) to mount a custom dual band dipole on the back of
      the pilots seat.  The frequency spacing made it so that I could not use the
      usual dual band loading approaches of which I was aware and I wasn't able
      to come up with a trap and loaded approach with which I had confidence.
      However, the frequency spacing did allow me to come up with a two frequency
      fan dipole with one pair of elements a center-loaded shortened dipole for
      121.5 and the second dipole full length for 406 MHz.  Element lengths were
      adjusted to accommodate the dielectric properties of the nearby fiberglass
      seat back.  Also, since I'm not using a balun, the cable routing from the
      center point is carefully laid on the virtual ground plane for a foot or
      two.  The result fits, it's located such that if the crash destroys it, I
      won't be in a hurry for a rescue anyway, has good VSWR on both frequencies
      and the ELT's self test is happy with it.  Sadly, there was no combination
      of the TSO'd antennas I could come up with that met these same criteria.
      
      Best regards,
      Steve Stearns
      Longeze N45FC
      Boulder/Longmont CO
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
ADSB Antenna
From: 
"erich weaver" <erich.weaver(at)aecom.com>
Date: 
Aug 18, 2018
      
      
      Greetings
      
      My uAvionix Echo ADSB unit came with a single transmit/receive pole style antenna.
      It receives on both 978 and 1080 MHz while transmitting on 978  MHz. I would
      like to replace it with a blade style antenna to be a bit more robust.  Looking
      on the Delta Pop antenna website, I see an ADSB blade antenna for 978 MHz.
      Will that be sufficient to receive on 1080 MHz as well? 
      Thanks
      Erich
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482524#482524
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
don van santen <donvansanten(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 18, 2018
Subject: 
Re: ADSB Antenna
      
      The Delta Pop antenna works fine. I use two, one for the transponder/ADSB
      out and one for the ADSB dual band in. Have used them for 2 tears with two
      different systems and they have been flauless.
      
      On Aug 18, 2018 16:16, "erich weaver"  wrote:
      
      erich.weaver(at)aecom.com>
      
      Greetings
      
      My uAvionix Echo ADSB unit came with a single transmit/receive pole style
      antenna.  It receives on both 978 and 1080 MHz while transmitting on 978
      MHz. I would like to replace it with a blade style antenna to be a bit more
      robust.  Looking on the Delta Pop antenna website, I see an ADSB blade
      antenna for 978 MHz.  Will that be sufficient to receive on 1080 MHz as
      well?
      Thanks
      Erich
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482524#482524
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: 
Aug 20, 2018
Subject: 
Seeking DB15 breakout / tester box
      
      Folks,
      
      I have an RS232 problem between my EFIS and my nav/comm radios and I am
      looking for a DB15 breakout box / tester box. Something like this
      https://www.viewpointusa.com/product/breakout-boards/15-pin-breakout-interface/
      but for a few dollars, not $95
      
      
      There are cheap versions for DB25 but I'm having trouble finding a DB15
      flavor. Any ideas?
      
          -- Art Z.
      
      -- 
      https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
      
      *"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."*
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 20, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Seeking DB15 breakout / tester box
      
      Art:
      
      Don't go crazy with a One Time Use breakout box (B.O.B.).
      Get a breadboard and build your own B.O.B..
      You should be able to find all the parts for $35.
      And...   Once you are done with that project you will have the ability to
      build more and different projects.
      
      Good breadboards have a Power Strip so hookups are even easier.
      https://www.domirobot.com/matsuhama-birlesik-breadboard-1700-pin-pmu392
      
      Barry
      
      
      On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 8:33 AM Art Zemon  wrote:
      
      > Folks,
      >
      > I have an RS232 problem between my EFIS and my nav/comm radios and I am
      > looking for a DB15 breakout box / tester box. Something like this
      > https://www.viewpointusa.com/product/breakout-boards/15-pin-breakout-interface/
      > but for a few dollars, not $95
      >
      >
      > There are cheap versions for DB25 but I'm having trouble finding a DB15
      > flavor. Any ideas?
      >
      >     -- Art Z.
      >
      > --
      > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
      >
      > *"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."*
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Seeking DB15 breakout / tester box
From: 
"user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 20, 2018
      
      
      Try searching eBay for "DB15 Y".
      
      --------
      Joe Gores
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482576#482576
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: 
Aug 20, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Seeking DB15 breakout / tester box
      
      Art,
      
      I couldn=99t find a U.S. seller so you may have to wait a few weeks fo
      r delivery, but I think this is what you=99re looking for:
      
      https://www.ebay.com/itm/371146139444
      
      A terminal block isn=99t the best connector for a logic probe, but sho
      rt lengths of wire should make a workable interface.
      
      Eric
      
      
      > On Aug 20, 2018, at 05:20, Art Zemon  wrote:
      > Folks,
      > 
      > I have an RS232 problem between my EFIS and my nav/comm radios and I am lo
      oking for a DB15 breakout box / tester box. Something like this https://www.
      viewpointusa.com/product/breakout-boards/15-pin-breakout-interface/ but for a
       few dollars, not $95 
      > 
      > 
      > There are cheap versions for DB25 but I'm having trouble finding a DB15 fl
      avor. Any ideas?
      > 
      >     -- Art Z.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 20, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: Seeking DB15 breakout / tester box
      
      I've built several over the years. Here's
      one cheap-n-dirty approach
      
      https://goo.gl/GBSRVo
      
      If you're in a big hurry and have access
      to solder cup connectors, you can hard-wire
      one in about 20 minutes with a bit of 22aWG
      wire and a soldering iron.
      
      Let me dig around in the junk box . . . I may
      have one already built up . . . which you
      can have it it exists.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 20, 2018
From: 
Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Re: Seeking DB15 breakout / tester box
      
      Just out of curiosity, Art, what kind of problem are you having with the RS
      -232 link between the EFIS and radios?=C2- Is it a consistent failure or 
      a glitch.=C2- If it's a glitch, can you tie it to an action or is it a ra
      ndom anomaly?=C2- What is the frequency of occurrence?
      
      Henador Titzoff 
      
      wrote:  
      
       Folks,
      I have an RS232 problem between my EFIS and my nav/comm radios and I am loo
      king for a DB15 breakout box / tester box. Something like this=C2-https:/
      /www.viewpointusa.com/product/breakout-boards/15-pin-breakout-interface/ bu
      t for a few dollars, not $95=C2-
      
      There are cheap versions for DB25 but I'm having trouble finding a DB15 fla
      vor. Any ideas?
      
      =C2- =C2- -- Art Z.
      -- 
      https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
      
      "We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 20, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: Seeking DB15 breakout / tester box
      
      At 05:18 PM 8/20/2018, you wrote:
      >I've built several over the years. Here's
      >one cheap-n-dirty approach
      >
      >https://goo.gl/GBSRVo
      >
      >If you're in a big hurry and have access
      >to solder cup connectors, you can hard-wire
      >one in about 20 minutes with a bit of 22aWG
      >wire and a soldering iron.
      >
      >Let me dig around in the junk box . . . I may
      >have one already built up . . . which you
      >can have it it exists.
      
         Couldn't put my hands on it. Here's
         the parts in state-side stock.
      
      https://goo.gl/i31NnY
      
      https://goo.gl/4k3MMi
      
      I can send you a chunk of .05" pitch ribbon
      cable if you don't have any.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: 
Aug 20, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Seeking DB15 breakout / tester box
      
      Thanks for checking, Bob. DB25 breakouts are like $4-6 and readily
      available. I was hoping to find a DB15 and save myself some time. I guess
      I'll have to make one :-)
      
      Cheers,
          -- Art Z.
      
      
      On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 9:05 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
      nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
      
      > At 05:18 PM 8/20/2018, you wrote:
      >
      > I've built several over the years. Here's
      > one cheap-n-dirty approach
      >
      > https://goo.gl/GBSRVo
      >
      > If you're in a big hurry and have access
      > to solder cup connectors, you can hard-wire
      > one in about 20 minutes with a bit of 22aWG
      > wire and a soldering iron.
      >
      > Let me dig around in the junk box . . . I may
      > have one already built up . . . which you
      > can have it it exists.
      >
      >
      >   Couldn't put my hands on it. Here's
      >   the parts in state-side stock.
      >
      > https://goo.gl/i31NnY
      >
      > https://goo.gl/4k3MMi
      >
      > I can send you a chunk of .05" pitch ribbon
      > cable if you don't have any.
      >
      >
      >   Bob . . .
      >
      
      
      -- 
      https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
      
      *"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."*
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Seeking DB15 breakout / tester box
From: 
"donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: 
Aug 22, 2018
      
      
      Art,
      
      I had a similar issue a little while back (mine was a DB-9).  What I ended up doing
      is making a pair of DB-25 to DB-9 patch.  Fortunately, I had the parts so
      it just took a little time and was all set. 
      
      Don
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482634#482634
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 23, 2018
Subject: 
Re: CROWBARS?
      
      i started wiring my ovm and i have a question about auto relays. the
      contactor i have for the lead off my alternator really bugs me that i am
      adding 14 ounces just for this ''switch''. my alternator is rated at 37
      amps but the 40 and even 50 amp auto relays look like that have a ''faston
      tab'' for their terminal. are these terminals up to carrying the load from
      the alternator?
       bob
      
      On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 5:31 PM Charlie England  wrote:
      
      > I'm not (either) Bob, but...
      >
      > I assume you're talking about an internally regulated alternator. If you
      > have a copy of the 'Connection, go to drawing z13/8, 'all electric plane on
      > a budget'. You can copy the circuit shown for the Dynamo (upper right hand
      > and top center of the page). Just erase the dynamo/regulator parts and the
      > filter capacitor, and tie what's labeled as a red wire at the voltage
      > regulator to the B lead of the alternator.
      >
      > Charlie
      >
      > On 8/9/2018 2:00 PM, bob noffs wrote:
      >
      > hi bob,
      >  i am trying to do ov protection on a viking 110. b and c would have the
      > ovm blow a breaker and cut off current to coil in a relay. i think i have
      > seen drawings of yours where a contactor is used betweeen alternator and
      > main bus . can you direct me to a drawing that is as simple as you say. any
      > current for relays/ contactors would have to come straight from the
      > alternator. worst case with the honda is that both batteries must be taken
      > off line, leaving the alternator to provide spark.
      >  thanks, bob noffs
      >
      > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:49 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
      > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
      >
      >> At 05:45 AM 7/12/2018, you wrote:
      >>
      >> well, i guess i should wire in a crowbar. seems like it should be pretty
      >> straight forward to have it break the circuit to the field. i will take a
      >> look in bob's book for ideas and go from there.
      >>
      >>
      >>   The crowbar ov protection module can be added to
      >>   any system wherein alternator field power is
      >>   taken through a typical 5A breaker. The
      >>   module is wired from field supply line to
      >>   ground at any point downstream of that
      >>   breaker. You can find examples in the Z-figures.
      >>
      >>
      >>   Bob . . .
      >>
      >
      >
      >  Virus-free.
      > www.avast.com
      > 
      > <#m_4793364182841804945_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 23, 2018
Subject: 
Re: CROWBARS?
      
      Good question. Here's the Faston data sheet:
      http://www.te.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?Action=showdoc&DocId=Specification+Or+Standard%7F108-20020%7FD3%7Fpdf%7FEnglish%7FENG_SS_108-20020_D3.pdf%7F180906
      
      The current rating of the terminal seems more closely tied to the wire size
      than the terminal itself, but everything has a limit. If you want
      'insurance', you can get those automotive relays with current ratings up to
      around 100 amps. I've got one in front of me that's rated for 80 amps, and
      the power carrying blades are 3/8" wide instead of 1/4". It came with a
      mating socket & pigtails, so you'd splice on your wire to extend to the
      final destination.
      
      Charlie
      
      On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 5:36 AM, bob noffs  wrote:
      
      > i started wiring my ovm and i have a question about auto relays. the
      > contactor i have for the lead off my alternator really bugs me that i am
      > adding 14 ounces just for this ''switch''. my alternator is rated at 37
      > amps but the 40 and even 50 amp auto relays look like that have a ''faston
      > tab'' for their terminal. are these terminals up to carrying the load from
      > the alternator?
      >  bob
      >
      > On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 5:31 PM Charlie England 
      > wrote:
      >
      >> I'm not (either) Bob, but...
      >>
      >> I assume you're talking about an internally regulated alternator. If you
      >> have a copy of the 'Connection, go to drawing z13/8, 'all electric plane on
      >> a budget'. You can copy the circuit shown for the Dynamo (upper right hand
      >> and top center of the page). Just erase the dynamo/regulator parts and the
      >> filter capacitor, and tie what's labeled as a red wire at the voltage
      >> regulator to the B lead of the alternator.
      >>
      >> Charlie
      >>
      >> On 8/9/2018 2:00 PM, bob noffs wrote:
      >>
      >> hi bob,
      >>  i am trying to do ov protection on a viking 110. b and c would have the
      >> ovm blow a breaker and cut off current to coil in a relay. i think i have
      >> seen drawings of yours where a contactor is used betweeen alternator and
      >> main bus . can you direct me to a drawing that is as simple as you say. any
      >> current for relays/ contactors would have to come straight from the
      >> alternator. worst case with the honda is that both batteries must be taken
      >> off line, leaving the alternator to provide spark.
      >>  thanks, bob noffs
      >>
      >> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:49 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
      >> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
      >>
      >>> At 05:45 AM 7/12/2018, you wrote:
      >>>
      >>> well, i guess i should wire in a crowbar. seems like it should be pretty
      >>> straight forward to have it break the circuit to the field. i will take a
      >>> look in bob's book for ideas and go from there.
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>   The crowbar ov protection module can be added to
      >>>   any system wherein alternator field power is
      >>>   taken through a typical 5A breaker. The
      >>>   module is wired from field supply line to
      >>>   ground at any point downstream of that
      >>>   breaker. You can find examples in the Z-figures.
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>   Bob . . .
      >>>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>  Virus-free.
      >> www.avast.com
      >> 
      >> <#m_-5149255066127419438_m_4793364182841804945_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
      >>
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: CROWBARS?
From: 
"user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 23, 2018
      
      
      According to page 8 this document from TE Connectivity using 10AWG, the ampacity
      is 24 amps continuous or 48 amp intermittent.  
      http://www.te.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?Action=srchrtrv&DocNm=82004_FASTON_TERMINALS_-_FULL_CATALOG&DocType=CS&DocLang=EN
      Chances are that your RV-12 will use about 10 amps continuous, up to 20 intermittent.
      If you expect to use the full capacity of your alternator continuously,
      then a faston terminal would be stressed.  I would be comfortable using the
      relay with faston terminals.  You have a 40 hour test period to try it out.
      
      --------
      Joe Gores
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482646#482646
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 23, 2018
Subject: 
Re: CROWBARS?
      
      so to make this even more confusing a site called ''wirebarn.com'' has a
      wire size calculator that says 12 ga is good for 40 amps up to about 4 feet
      and the faston site says the .375'' tab is good for 40 amps.anyone have any
      comment or experience with these stats?
       bob noffs
      
      On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 7:50 AM user9253  wrote:
      
      >
      > According to page 8 this document from TE Connectivity using 10AWG, the
      > ampacity is 24 amps continuous or 48 amp intermittent.
      >
      > http://www.te.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?Action=srchrtrv&DocNm=82004_FASTON_TERMINALS_-_FULL_CATALOG&DocType=CS&DocLang=EN
      > Chances are that your RV-12 will use about 10 amps continuous, up to 20
      > intermittent.  If you expect to use the full capacity of your alternator
      > continuously, then a faston terminal would be stressed.  I would be
      > comfortable using the relay with faston terminals.  You have a 40 hour test
      > period to try it out.
      >
      > --------
      > Joe Gores
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482646#482646
      >
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 23, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: CROWBARS?
      
      At 05:36 AM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
      >i started wiring my ovm and i have a question 
      >about auto relays. the contactor i have for the 
      >lead off my alternator really bugs me that i am 
      >adding 14 ounces just for this ''switch''. my 
      >alternator is rated at 37 amps but the 40 and 
      >even 50 amp auto relays look like that have a 
      >''faston tab'' for their terminal. are these 
      >terminals up to carrying the load from the alternator?
      >=C2 bob
      
         You might consider this product:
      
      https://goo.gl/UAVJMw
      
         I have no experience with these . . . I'm
         going to order one to peek and poke at . . .
         but the specs are right.
      
         I'd wire the b-lead up with 6AWG welding
         cable.
      
      https://goo.gl/BxAj1V
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators?
From: 
"supik" <bionicad(at)hotmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 23, 2018
      
      
      To keep things simple I was thinking about using the Honeywell DPDT on/on/on toggle
      switch for switching on BAT + Alternator 1 & Alternator 2 (aux alt) at the
      same time. The design would include one main battery and the IBBS standby bat.
      
      Switch position logic:
      
      1. BAT + ALT 1 & ALT 2
      2. BAT
      3. OFF
      
      To manually switch of either ALT 1 or ALT 2 I would have to pull either ALT1 or
      ALT2 field CBs positioned after the main switch. I understand 2 possible design
      problems:
      
      1. The wire going to the main switch feeding the ALT fields has no protection
      2. The switch would be a single point of failure
      
      -any other problems I am missing with this setup?
      
      thanks!
      
      
      https://www.steinair.com/product/locking-toggle-switch-dpdt-ononon/
      
      --------
      Igor
      
      RV10 in progress
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482649#482649
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 23, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: CROWBARS?
      
      At 09:04 AM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
      >so to make this even more confusing a site called 
      >''<http://wirebarn.com>wirebarn.com'' has a wire size calculator 
      >that says 12 ga is good for 40 amps up to about 4 feet and the 
      >faston site says the .375'' tab is good for 40 amps.anyone have any 
      >comment or experience with these stats?
      
         I would discourage running an alternator b-lead
         through a fast-on tab. Components with threaded
         fasteners for fat wire termination are demonstrably
         low risk. The relay I cited earlier offers
         this feature. #6 welding cable is SOFT and FLEXIBLE
         hence transfers small installation/operation stresses to
         the relay's terminals and is VERY capable of
         carrying alternator outputs up to and including
         70A.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators?
From: 
"user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 23, 2018
      
      
      One overlooked problem is the $72 cost of the switch plus shipping.  :-)
      
      --------
      Joe Gores
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482651#482651
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 23, 2018
Subject: 
Re: CROWBARS?
      
      On the topic of soft and flexible welding cable, we have a supplier up here
      (Alaska) who developed soft flexible wire for use in cold environments
      called Arctic Ultraflex. It is almost a flexible as welding cable, and is
      available in much smaller sizes. The only downside I have found is that the
      insulation can be cut quite easily, so protection is important. The
      supplier is Polar Wire but surely this produce is not unique.
      http://www.polarwire.com/
      
      
      On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 9:28 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
      nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
      
      > At 09:04 AM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
      >
      > so to make this even more confusing a site called ''wirebarn.com'' has a
      > wire size calculator that says 12 ga is good for 40 amps up to about 4 feet
      > and the faston site says the .375'' tab is good for 40 amps.anyone have any
      > comment or experience with these stats?
      >
      >
      >   I would discourage running an alternator b-lead
      >   through a fast-on tab. Components with threaded
      >   fasteners for fat wire termination are demonstrably
      >   low risk. The relay I cited earlier offers
      >   this feature. #6 welding cable is SOFT and FLEXIBLE
      >   hence transfers small installation/operation stresses to
      >   the relay's terminals and is VERY capable of
      >   carrying alternator outputs up to and including
      >   70A.
      >
      >
      >   Bob . . .
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 23, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2   Alternators?
      
      At 12:28 PM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
      >
      >One overlooked problem is the $72 cost of the switch plus shipping.
      
         It's also a single point of failure for lots
         of stuff.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 23, 2018
Subject: 
Re: CROWBARS?
      
      i swear i have been to that site a dozen times and never saw that relay.
      just ordered it. thanks bob.
       bob noffs
      
      On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 12:59 PM Ken Ryan  wrote:
      
      > On the topic of soft and flexible welding cable, we have a supplier up
      > here (Alaska) who developed soft flexible wire for use in cold environments
      > called Arctic Ultraflex. It is almost a flexible as welding cable, and is
      > available in much smaller sizes. The only downside I have found is that the
      > insulation can be cut quite easily, so protection is important. The
      > supplier is Polar Wire but surely this produce is not unique.
      > http://www.polarwire.com/
      >
      >
      > On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 9:28 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
      > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
      >
      >> At 09:04 AM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
      >>
      >> so to make this even more confusing a site called ''wirebarn.com'' has a
      >> wire size calculator that says 12 ga is good for 40 amps up to about 4 feet
      >> and the faston site says the .375'' tab is good for 40 amps.anyone have any
      >> comment or experience with these stats?
      >>
      >>
      >>   I would discourage running an alternator b-lead
      >>   through a fast-on tab. Components with threaded
      >>   fasteners for fat wire termination are demonstrably
      >>   low risk. The relay I cited earlier offers
      >>   this feature. #6 welding cable is SOFT and FLEXIBLE
      >>   hence transfers small installation/operation stresses to
      >>   the relay's terminals and is VERY capable of
      >>   carrying alternator outputs up to and including
      >>   70A.
      >>
      >>
      >>   Bob . . .
      >>
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 23, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Arctic super-flex wire
      
      At 12:53 PM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
      >On the topic of soft and flexible welding cable, 
      >we have a supplier up here (Alaska) who 
      >developed soft flexible wire for use in cold 
      >environments called Arctic Ultraflex. It is 
      >almost a flexible as welding cable, and is 
      >available in much smaller sizes. The only 
      >downside I have found is that the insulation can 
      >be cut quite easily, so protection is important. 
      >The supplier is Polar Wire but surely this 
      >produce is not unique.=C2
       <http://www.polarwire.com/>http://www.polarwire.com
      
         Interesting product line. I'll study the
         wire more closely when I have time. I do
         note that the insulation is rated for 105C
         which is probably fine for what we do.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 23, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Arctic super-flex wire
      
      Bob, would you like some samples? I have cutoffs etc. laying around.
      
      Ken
      
      On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 11:59 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
      nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
      
      > At 12:53 PM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
      >
      > On the topic of soft and flexible welding cable, we have a supplier up
      > here (Alaska) who developed soft flexible wire for use in cold environmen
      ts
      > called Arctic Ultraflex. It is almost a flexible as welding cable, and is
      > available in much smaller sizes. The only downside I have found is that t
      he
      > insulation can be cut quite easily, so protection is important. The
      > supplier is Polar Wire but surely this produce is not unique.=C3=82
      > http://www.polarwire.com
      >
      >
      >   Interesting product line. I'll study the
      >   wire more closely when I have time. I do
      >   note that the insulation is rated for 105C
      >   which is probably fine for what we do.
      >
      >
      >   Bob . . .
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 23, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: Arctic super-flex wire
      
      At 03:07 PM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
      >Bob, would you like some samples? I have cutoffs etc. laying around.
      
        Sure!  PO Box 130, Medicine Lodge, KS  67104-0130
      
        Thanks!
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Pat Little <roughleg(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 23, 2018
Subject: 
Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator
      
      We have a Jabiru 3300 on a Zenith STOL CH750 and I'm trying to understand
      the inner workings of the voltage regulator that Jabiru supplies. I asked
      on the Jabiru forum but didn't get any useful insight. Does anyone on this
      list happen to know what goes on inside that unit?
      
      One of my puzzles is: on Jabiru's wiring diagram it show which pins on the
      regulator's connector go where, and it lists, among others, these two:
      "*RED to battery + via relay*" - presumably this is the output to charge
      the battery and power the plane's electrical system
      "*YELLOW voltage control - J160C to main bus, other models to battery +*"
      - is this a feedback signal from the battery into the regulator's sense
      circuit? if so, that might explain why not *via* *relay*. And why would it
      connect to a different place in one model of airplane (the J160C is a
      Jabiru certified plane) than in others?
      
      If anyone cares to look, the diagram I mention is on page 269 of the Jabiru
      Aircraft Technical Manual JTM001-8
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators?
From: 
JOHN TIPTON <john(at)tiptonuk.eu>
Date: 
Aug 23, 2018
      
      
      Plenty on eBay: 10.00 or so
      
      John
      
      Sent from my iPad
      
           ----x--O--x----
      
      > On 23 Aug 2018, at 6:28 pm, user9253  wrote:
      > 
      > 
      > One overlooked problem is the $72 cost of the switch plus shipping.  :-)
      > 
      > --------
      > Joe Gores
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > Read this topic online here:
      > 
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482651#482651
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 23, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Arctic super-flex wire
      
      Short lengths of 12,10,8 and 4awg are on the way. Let us know what you
      think.
      
      
      Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve.
      
      On Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 12:49 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
      nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
      
      > At 03:07 PM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
      >
      > Bob, would you like some samples? I have cutoffs etc. laying around.
      >
      >
      >  Sure!  PO Box 130, Medicine Lodge, KS  67104-0130
      >
      >  Thanks!
      >
      >
      >   Bob . . .
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 23, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator
      
      At 04:12 PM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
      >We have a Jabiru 3300 on a Zenith STOL CH750 and 
      >I'm trying to understand the inner workings of 
      >the voltage regulator that Jabiru supplies. I 
      >asked on the Jabiru forum but didn't get any 
      >useful insight. Does anyone on this list happen 
      >to know what goes on inside that unit?
      >
      >One of my puzzles is: on Jabiru's wiring diagram 
      >it show which pins on the regulator's connector 
      >go where, and it lists, among others, these two:
      >"RED to battery=C2 + via relay" - presumably this 
      >is the output to charge the battery and power the plane's electrical system
      >"YELLOW voltage control - J160C to main bus, 
      >other models to battery=C2 +"=C2  - is this a 
      >feedback signal from the battery into the 
      >regulator's sense circuit? if so, that might 
      >explain why not via relay. And why would it 
      >connect to a different place in one model of 
      >airplane (the J160C is a Jabiru certified plane) than in others?
      >
      >If anyone cares to look, the diagram I mention 
      >is on page 269 of the 
      >Jabiru 
      >Aircraft Technical Manual JTM001-8
      
      
          I would guess that yellow is a sense lead. Exactly
          WHY they do certain things in their architecture
          is perhaps a down-under state secret.
      
          I've had some email contact with the factory
          about 10 years ago trying to resolve similar
          questions but I've never been able to talk with
          anyone who really understood the system. All
          I could get out of them is "that's what the
          diagrams have always shown . . . and YOU
          are the only one complaining about them."
      
          It's been my observation that people who design
          engines should stay out of the electrical system
          business . . . same for Rotax . . .
      
      
         Bob . . .  
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 23, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2   Alternators?
      
      At 11:49 AM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
      >
      >To keep things simple I was thinking about using the Honeywell DPDT 
      >on/on/on toggle switch for switching on BAT + Alternator 1 & 
      >Alternator 2 (aux alt) at the same time. The design would include 
      >one main battery and the IBBS standby bat.
      
         Really wish you wouldn't do that. Suggest you take
         one of the Z-figures and identify features that do
         not meet your design goals . . . then get with the
         gurus here on the List to sort out your options.
      
         Unless you've been doing this for a long time, there's
         significant risk that 'simplifications' move your
         risk factors in the wrong direction.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 23, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: Arctic super-flex wire
      
      At 06:14 PM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
      >Short lengths of 12,10,8 and 4awg are on the way. Let us know what you think.
      
         Thanks!
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 23, 2018
From: 
"Kent Ogden" <ogdenk(at)upstate.edu>
Subject: 
Ground power connector solenoid issue
      
      
      Hi all,
      I'm building an RV-10 and wanted to have a GPU connector for convenience, 
      and used Bob's excellent article to do so:
      http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
      I built the version with over-voltage protection, though I left out the 
      indicator light.  I have it all wired up but not connected to the battery 
      or battery solenoid yet.  The output wire is connected to the GPU solenoid 
      but just hanging in space (and well insulated to prevent shorts while 
      testing).
      I applied 12V from a lawn tractor battery to the connector, and sure 
      enough the solenoid closes and 12V appears on the output.  Then I open the 
      CB to make sure that it's working, apply power, and the solenoid closed 
      again!  I started debugging and what I found is that the S terminals on 
      the solenoid have a low resistance path to the solenoid case with nothing 
      at all connected to them. One has a resistance of about 4 ohms to the 
      case, the other about 15 ohms.  The resistance between the S terminals is 
      about 16.5 ohms, which is darn close to spec.  The solenoid will close 
      with nothing but the diode connected from the input side to the S1 
      terminal, and the S2 terminal with nothing on it!  This is a Sky-Tec 
      STS-A12, which is definitely the right part.  
      Sounds like a bad solenoid?  This thing is new but I purchased it a couple 
      years ago from ACS so I don't know if I can get it replaced at this point. 
       It was too late to call Sky-Tec today but if this is truly defective I 
      think they'd want to know about it.
      Anyone else ever see this?  Anything simple I'm overlooking?
      Kent Ogden 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator
From: 
"user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 23, 2018
      
      
      If the Jabiru voltage regulator functions the same as the Ducati regulator used
      on the Rotax, then the Jabiru
      regulator yellow control wire functions both as a regulator enable and voltage
      sense.
        I find the Jabiru wiring diagram difficult to read.  It appears that the yellow
      control wire connects
      to the left side of the 60 amp inline fuse.  But that wire is not marked on the
      diagram.
        If it were my plane, I would wire it according to Bob's Z-16,
      except substitute a 30 amp inline fuse in place of the 16awg fuselink.
      
      --------
      Joe Gores
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482676#482676
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Ground power connector solenoid issue
From: 
"user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 23, 2018
      
      
      It sure sounds like the contactor coil is shorted to the case.
      There is a SERVICE BULLETIN for that contactor, but it describes a different failure
      than what you describe.
      http://skytec.aero/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/HET-ASB-072.pdf
      
      --------
      Joe Gores
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482677#482677
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Pat Little <roughleg(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 23, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator
      
      Thanks for that Joe. Now that I have taken a look at Z-16 I like it for a
      number of reasons. One of them is that the alternator relay is on the
      alternator (it's called dynamo on the figure) output *into *the voltage
      regulator. I had been imagining putting the relay in the regulator's
      output. I'm guessing that the regulator would be happier with no input than
      full input and open circuit output. But since we don't know what's inside
      that thing...
      
      On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 8:42 PM user9253  wrote:
      
      >
      > If the Jabiru voltage regulator functions the same as the Ducati regulator
      > used on the Rotax, then the Jabiru
      > regulator yellow control wire functions both as a regulator enable and
      > voltage sense.
      >   I find the Jabiru wiring diagram difficult to read.  It appears that the
      > yellow control wire connects
      > to the left side of the 60 amp inline fuse.  But that wire is not marked
      > on the diagram.
      >   If it were my plane, I would wire it according to Bob's Z-16,
      > except substitute a 30 amp inline fuse in place of the 16awg fuselink.
      >
      > --------
      > Joe Gores
      >
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
James Kale <jimkale(at)roadrunner.com>
Date: 
Aug 24, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator
      
      I am helping a friend install a Jabiru 2200 on an Excalibur light sport airp
      lane that has a much simpler electrical system than you are building.  I che
      cked the Jabiru manual and found that they are using a permanent magnet alte
      rnator with single phase AC output.  The regulator that Jabiru supplied with
       the engine is the type that puts a full load on the alternator at all times
       then rectifies the output and regulates it down to 14 volts.  
      
      So the alternator is always producing full power and the rather robust regul
      ator with the fins dissipates the power that the aircraft is not using as he
      at.  That is why it is so robust with fins on it.  This is a much different s
      ituation than an excited 3 phase AC alternator used with a voltage regulator
      , either internal or external.  The Jabiru I am installing has a 200 watt ou
      tput which calculates to about 15 amps.  It is a simple system that works gr
      eat in airplanes with simple electrical systems which only needs power for a
       radio, intercom, lights, etc.  
      
      It it is connected to more complex airplanes that have primary and secondary
       busses, etc.  You must end up experimenting to try to determine just how th
      e regulator works, and how you can try to configure it to fit your more comp
      lex requirements.  In my opinion you are going out on a limb and risking a f
      ailure caused by trying to use a simple system for a more complex requiremen
      t.  I have no idea if an external alternator could be fitted to the Jabiru e
      ngine or not.  My recommendation is to keep your electrical system very simp
      le, or find a way to install a more powerful alternator with more convention
      al alternator controls.  
      
      Sent from my iPhone
      
      > On Aug 23, 2018, at 4:12 PM, Pat Little  wrote:
      > 
      > We have a Jabiru 3300 on a Zenith STOL CH750 and I'm trying to understand t
      he inner workings of the voltage regulator that Jabiru supplies. I asked on t
      he Jabiru forum but didn't get any useful insight. Does anyone on this list h
      appen to know what goes on inside that unit?
      > 
      > One of my puzzles is: on Jabiru's wiring diagram it show which pins on the
       regulator's connector go where, and it lists, among others, these two:
      > "RED to battery + via relay" - presumably this is the output to charge the
       battery and power the plane's electrical system
      > "YELLOW voltage control - J160C to main bus, other models to battery +"  -
       is this a feedback signal from the battery into the regulator's sense circu
      it? if so, that might explain why not via relay. And why would it connect to
       a different place in one model of airplane (the J160C is a Jabiru certified
       plane) than in others?
      > 
      > If anyone cares to look, the diagram I mention is on page 269 of the Jabir
      u Aircraft Technical Manual JTM001-8
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 24, 2018
From: 
Bobby Paulk <bobbypaulk(at)comcast.net>
Subject: 
Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 08/23/18
      
      
      Guys
      The Jabiru engine uses a 
      Kubota RP201-53710 regulator.
      I got rid of the Dynamo and regulator and installed a 40 amp. alternator.
      The Dynamo will not charge while taxiing and if you have any load at all your battery
      could be down when you try to leave. The new Honda ignition coils are far
      better than the originals and will help with starting also.
      
      Bobby
      Jabiru 3300
      302 hours
      Zenith 601
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator
From: 
"user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 24, 2018
      
      
      I would like to read about the Jabiru 2200 regulator.  Do you have a link to the
      literature?  Thanks
      
      > The regulator that Jabiru supplied with the engine is the type that puts a full
      load on the alternator at all times
      
      
      --------
      Joe Gores
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482690#482690
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 25, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator
      
      At 12:43 PM 8/24/2018, you wrote:
      >I am helping a friend install a Jabiru 2200 on an Excalibur light 
      >sport airplane that has a much simpler electrical system than you 
      >are building.  I checked the Jabiru manual and found that they are 
      >using a permanent magnet alternator with single phase AC 
      >output.  The regulator that Jabiru supplied with the engine is the 
      >type that puts a full load on the alternator at all times then 
      >rectifies the output and regulates it down to 14 volts.
      
         This 'shunt regulation' philosophy for small engine
         PM alternators was indeed popular and practical when
         mini-bike builders wanted to add batteries and headlights
         to their products. Total system energy requirements were on the
         order of 10 watts or less . . . not unlike that produced
         by those little generators we used to put on our bicycles.
      
         The had to be designed to tolerate continuous short
         circuit loading. I.e. wound with smaller, high resistance
         wire and well heat-sinked to dissipate the energy developed
         when a battery became fully charged and the shunting device,
         usually an SCR, was triggering early in every half cycle of
         the dynamo's output. Simple and sorta worked purddy gud . . .
      
      Emacs!
      
      
         Then came snowmobiles, ski-doos, etc, etc and the batteries
         got bigger, lights more powerful, starters were added, etc.
         etc. But the common vernacular for the ac dynamo on the engine
         was a 'lighting coil'.
      
         But as the system energy requirements went up, output
         demands from the dynamo and its companion regulator did
         too. A fundamental concern for any solid state power management
         is what to do with and about wasted heat. You can do it
         with a combination of two techniques: (1) reduce the heat
         dissipated in the circuit components and (2) add heat sinking
         which may included fins to dissipate energy into convection
         or forced air.
      
         (1) is where you start from.
      
      Emacs!
      
      
         The legacy, gated full wave rectifier shown above is
         typical of most if not ALL rectifier regulators of 20
         or so years ago. Some people have mistakenly called this
         a 'shunt' regulator because of the totem-pole of rectifier-
         SCR strings across the alternator winding. It may LOOK
         like some kind of 'shunt' circuit but in fact, those
         four devices in the bridge are only turned ON in pairs
         and in series connection with the alternator winding.
      
         The 'transistors' you see above are in fact 4-layer,
         triacs or scrs. They are the major heat dissipating
         devices in the circuit. Some manufacturer's have
         eliminated the 4-layer devices in favor of MOSFET
         transistors which typically have perhaps 5% of the
         dissipation of the SCR.  These modern R/R's run much
         cooler and are more efficient.
      
         Once you've refined your circuit components, you then
         PACKAGE the thing to manage heat that 20A+ components
         invariably throw off.
      
         But these are still gated, SERIES, full wave bridge rectifiers.
         Nobody would build a true SHUNT style regulator reminiscent
         of your daddy's moped. It's inefficient, wasteful, difficult
         to manage thermally and best yet . . . completely unnecessary.
         If someone claims to HAVE a shunt style rectifier/regulator,
         ask them to put a snap-on ammeter on one of the alternator
         leads while system loads are minimized and the battery is
         charged.
      
         If it's a shunt style regulator, current flowing in that
         loop with minimized alternator loads would be high. I'll
         offer to give $100 to anyone who can send me a SHUNT
         style R/R rated at 10A or more to test on my stand along
         with identification of where it came from and on what
         vehicle it is used.  I'll test here, write a report and
         return the R/R to the owner with or without the $100
         as dictated by test results.
      
         I'll bet the Jabiru 3300 R/R is no different electronically
         than the Ducatti regulators supplied with Rotax engines all
         these years.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators?
From: 
"supik" <bionicad(at)hotmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 25, 2018
      
      
      [quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]At 11:49 AM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
      
      > 
      >    Unless you've been doing this for a long time, there's
      >    significant risk that 'simplifications' move your
      >    risk factors in the wrong direction.
      > 
      >  
      >  
      >    Bob . . .
      
      
      Bob, that's the reason why I am asking here. I was looking at the Z figures, but
      haven't found a combo I was looking for:
      
      1 Main bat
      1 IBBS backup bat
      2 Alternators
      
      ..and the option that none of the Alts can be selected ON unless the Bat is ON.
      With BAT ON, separate selection of Alternators shall be possible.
      
      thanks,
      
      --------
      Igor
      
      RV10 in progress
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482692#482692
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 26, 2018
From: 
Todd Bristol <djtoddb(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT  and
      2 Alternators?
      
      Thank you for your email but I will be out of town with limited email and p
      hone access. =EF=BD I will return all my phone calls and emails after Au
      gust 30th.. =EF=BDIn case of emergencies, please contact Rodney at 480-2
      17-5555. THANK YOU!
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 26, 2018
Subject: 
Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators?
      
      On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 1:51 AM, supik  wrote:
      
      >
      > [quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]At 11:49 AM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
      >
      > >
      > >    Unless you've been doing this for a long time, there's
      > >    significant risk that 'simplifications' move your
      > >    risk factors in the wrong direction.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >    Bob . . .
      >
      >
      > Bob, that's the reason why I am asking here. I was looking at the Z
      > figures, but haven't found a combo I was looking for:
      >
      > 1 Main bat
      > 1 IBBS backup bat
      > 2 Alternators
      >
      > ..and the option that none of the Alts can be selected ON unless the Bat
      > is ON. With BAT ON, separate selection of Alternators shall be possible.
      >
      > thanks,
      >
      > --------
      > Igor
      >
      > RV10 in progress
      >
      >
      If that's a big deal to you, how about using a double pole single throw
      master switch. One side supplies the ground path to energize the battery
      contactor, as shown in the Z drawings. The other side feeds DC power from
      the main bus to the two alternator control switches. Wit master on, either
      alt can be selected; with master off, neither can be powered.
      
      Charlie
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Tim Yoder" <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com>
Subject: 
Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT 
      and 2 Alternators?
Date: 
Aug 26, 2018
      
      What=99s a few more daysThanks Todd.
      
      
      From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com 
       On Behalf Of Todd Bristol
      Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2018 12:07 AM
      Subject: Auto Response: AeroElectric-List: Re: DPDT Toggle switch for 
      BAT and 2 Alternators?
      
      
      Thank you for your email but I will be out of town with limited email 
      and phone access. =EF=BD I will return all my phone calls and emails 
      after August 30th.. =EF=BDIn case of emergencies, please contact 
      Rodney at 480-217-5555. THANK YOU!
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Tim Yoder" <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com>
Subject: 
Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT 
      and 2 Alternators?
Date: 
Aug 26, 2018
      
      What=99s a few more days.Thanks Todd.
      
      
      How was the flight to Ryan? Any video?
      
      
      From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com 
       On Behalf Of Todd Bristol
      Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2018 12:07 AM
      Subject: Auto Response: AeroElectric-List: Re: DPDT Toggle switch for 
      BAT and 2 Alternators?
      
      
      Thank you for your email but I will be out of town with limited email 
      and phone access. =EF=BD I will return all my phone calls and emails 
      after August 30th.. =EF=BDIn case of emergencies, please contact 
      Rodney at 480-217-5555. THANK YOU!
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 26, 2018
From: 
Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net>
Subject: 
Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 24 Msgs -  08/23/18
      
      >> The Dynamo will not charge while taxiing and if you have any load at all
       your battery could be down when you try to leave. 
      
      This has a been an accepted requirement since I've known of the Aeroelectri
      c list, but I've always questioned its importance.=C2- On the one hand we
      're demanding the the battery be fully topped off at the departure end of t
      he runway, and on the other we demand that the battery be of sufficient cap
      acity to outlast the fuel in the tanks.=C2- If starting the engine deplet
      es the engine so much that the battery is crippled by it, the I ask the que
      stion, "Do you really want to fly a plane that either has an engine that do
      esn't want to start or one with a battery that is depleted by a normal star
      t?"
      If your low voltage light or other charge indicator doesn't show the charge
      r working during run-up are you going to take off anyway?=C2- If the indi
      cator shows the charger has gone south on climb out, didn't you plan for en
      ough battery to carry you to the destination anyway?=C2- Well, now the de
      stination should be the one directly below.=C2- If the plan was for the b
      attery to carry the electron pushing load for hours, why would the new "fly
       the few minutes of the pattern and land now" plan cause any concern even w
      ith the slight depletion due to starting? 
      
      Is the concern better spent elsewhere?
      
      
          On Friday, August 24, 2018 2:47 PM, Bobby Paulk  wrote:
      
      
      et>
      
      Guys
      The Jabiru engine uses a 
      Kubota RP201-53710 regulator.
      I got rid of the Dynamo and regulator and installed a 40 amp. alternator.
      The Dynamo will not charge while taxiing and if you have any load at all yo
      ur battery could be down when you try to leave. The new Honda ignition coil
      s are far better than the originals and will help with starting also.
      
      Bobby
      Jabiru 3300
      302 hours
      Zenith 601
       -
      S -
      WIKI -
       -
      =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
      
      
         
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators?
From: 
"user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 26, 2018
      
      
      The battery should be connected whenever an alternator is operating because the
      battery stabilizes electrical system voltage.  Without the battery, system voltage
      could vary plus or minus 1 volt or so.  That voltage instability might cause
      the over-voltage protection device to activate.
        It is OK to mix and match features from several of the Z wiring diagrams.  If
      you draw your own schematic with the features that you want, post it on this
      forum for peer review.  An easy free program for drawing schematics is ExpressSCH.
      https://www.expresspcb.com/free-cad-software/
      
      --------
      Joe Gores
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482702#482702
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 26, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 24 Msgs -    08/23/18
      
      At 11:54 AM 8/26/2018, you wrote:
       >> The Dynamo will not charge while taxiing and if you have any load 
      at all your battery could be down when you try to leave.
      
          Which begs the question . . . by how much? Successful
          adoption of the e-bus philosophy requires a study
          of the ENERGY required to complete each phase of flight.
          This task is no different than the days before alternators.
          Generators produced very little or no useful output
          at taxi/idle speeds.  Starting an engine should take
          no more than a couple percent of the battery's capacity.
          So after start up and pre-flighting all the electro-whizzies,
          one could drop to the e-bus for taxi out and hold
          for take off.
      
          Most of my experience was off small, uncontrolled fields
          where time from start up to take-off roll was on the
          order of 5 minutes or less.  So yes, just how badly will
          your WELL MAINTAINED and PERIODICALLY CAP CHECKED battery
          be depleted before full engine driven power is available?
      
          All these things are known or easily discovered. It
          does require due diligence to run the numbers . . .
          but like weight and balance, it's rarely calculated
          again once the common configuration has been shown
          to meet design goals.
      
      If starting the engine depletes the engine so much that the battery 
      is crippled by it . . .
      
          It doesn't. Cranking the engine has some
          high POWER demands but the starter is
          on of the lowest energy consumers on the
          airplane. Back before LEDs, a 3 hour flight
          with three navigation lights illuminated at
          2A each was 14v x 6a x 3hr x 3600 sec/hr
          yields about 910,000 watt-seconds. The starter
          is 12v x 200a x 10sec for a paultry 24000 watt-
          seconds.
      
          An e-bus load of say 6a x 12v x 10min x 60 sec/min
          = 43200 watt-seconds.
      
          The battery sized and maintained to carry a 6a e-bus
          for 2 hours stores 12v x 6a x 2hr x 3600 sec/hr 
          518400 watt-seconds.
      
          So if you burn up 24000 + 43200 = 67200 watt-seconds
          getting airborne . . . you have only demanded
          67200/518400 = 0.13 or 13% of your battery's total
          capacity.
      
          This is purely a hypothetical to illustrate the
          data needed to crunch your own numbers. Bottom line
          is that if that 1954 TriPacer in which I took dual
          instruction could do it, there is no reason you cannot craft
          a system and operating philosophy that lets you do
          as well or better in a Rotax powered Kitfox.
      
      If your low voltage light or other charge indicator doesn't show the 
      charger working during run-up are you going to take off anyway?  If 
      the indicator shows the charger has gone south on climb out, didn't 
      you plan for enough battery to carry you to the destination 
      anyway?  Well, now the destination should be the one directly 
      below.  If the plan was for the battery to carry the electron pushing 
      load for hours, why would the new "fly the few minutes of the pattern 
      and land now" plan cause any concern even with the slight depletion 
      due to starting?
      
      Is the concern better spent elsewhere?
      
          Agreed . . .
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 26, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2   Alternators?
      
      
      >Bob, that's the reason why I am asking here. I was looking at the Z 
      >figures, but haven't found a combo I was looking for:
      >
      >1 Main bat
      >1 IBBS backup bat
      >2 Alternators
      >
      >..and the option that none of the Alts can be selected ON unless the 
      >Bat is ON. With BAT ON, separate selection of Alternators shall be possible.
      
          Don't like to put control of so many electro-whizzies
          on one switch. Z-13/8 is one of several examples where
          you can loose functionality of any one component with
          a high order probability of comfortable termination
          of flight.
      
          What's the IBBS battery? What is it about battery
          reliability that drives you to believe that loosing
          the main battery is a untenable risk?
      
          Batteries ARE a bit of a pain . . . they are like potted
          plants. Given the same attention you would give to tire
          wear, belt wear, prop nicks, torque on wooden prop bolts,
          oil changes, plug maintenance, the battery is the single
          most reliable source of energy in the airplane. But like
          the house plant, abuse it beyond certain bounds just
          once can seriously degrade its integrity.
      
          If you have no plans for optimally maintaining the ship's
          main battery, then will a standby battery be treated any
          differently? Stacking two, poorly maintained batteries
          on top of each others only increases weight and doubles
          the chances that you're going to come up short on
          stored electrons due to flagging battery performance . . .
          a condition easily avoided.
      
          What is it about Z13/8 as published that gives you
          heart burn?
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators?
From: 
"user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 26, 2018
      
      
      IBBS is a small Lithium battery.
      http://www.tcwtech.com/ibbs_integrated_backup_battery_system_3ah_6ah.html
      
      --------
      Joe Gores
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482708#482708
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 27, 2018
From: 
Bobby Paulk <bobbypaulk(at)comcast.net>
Subject: 
Dynamo vs Alternator
      
      Ernest
      
      I am aware of all the factors you mention in your response and took what I thought
      to be the best route to not be stranded at a destination airport. I also had
      a port to add battery power from an outside source.
      
      Previously if I went out 30 to 40 minutes and reduced power on a down wind leg
      and taxied a long way leaving the transponder, strobes, radio, and EFIS on the
      battery would not be up to par. I could watch the negative amp flow on the meter.
      
      The original Jabiru engine needed 300 rpm to generate enough spark to start. I
      also fixed that by adding an E-mag on the left side and an improved Honda coil
      on the right side. Now it's up and running before you can take your finger off
      the start button. This coupled with the 40 amp alternator that charges while
      taxiing makes the airplane much more reliable.
      
      Just my humble opinion.
      
      
      bobby
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 27, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2   Alternators?
      
      At 06:22 PM 8/26/2018, you wrote:
      >
      >IBBS is a small Lithium battery.
      >http://www.tcwtech.com/ibbs_integrated_backup_battery_system_3ah_6ah.html
      >
      >--------
      >Joe Gores
      
         Okay, thanks.  I just downloaded the patent on the
         ibbs  (8,189,305) along with 'related patents' citen
         on their website. I wonder if the circuitry in their
         patent truly represents the product . . . it's
         REALLY busy!  The patent is pretty long in the
         tooth . . . and much simpler approaches
         to a similar product are on the market.
      
         Okay, installation instructions do include
         YEARLY checks for continued air worthiness.
         I presume one would check the chip's battery
         at the same time . . . which means the operator
         needs to develop his/her own airworthiness
         verification protocols.
      
         Igor, what size IBBS are you installing
         and have you established your projected loads
         and design goals for endurance?
      
      
         Bob . . .  
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 28, 2018
From: 
Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net>
Subject: 
Re: Dynamo vs Alternator
      
      Having spent too much time in the air with an engine that I wasn't comforta
      ble with, I would say you did the right thing.=C2- My comment was meant t
      o relieve the discomfort of people overly concerned about having scratched 
      the surface of battery usage, and wanting it all to be back before they get
       to the run-up area. =C2- It isn't a serious concern, but if you are both
      ered by it, it becomes a distraction and should be dealt with.  
      
          On Monday, August 27, 2018 6:27 PM, Bobby Paulk  wrote:
      
      
        Ernest 
      I am aware of all the factors you mention in your response and took what I 
      thought to be the best route to not be stranded at a destination airport. I
       also had a port to add battery power from an outside source.
      Previously if I went out 30 to 40 minutes and reduced power on a down wind 
      leg and taxied a long way leaving the transponder, strobes, radio, and EFIS
       on the battery would not be up to par. I could watch the negative amp flow
       on the meter.
      The original Jabiru engine needed 300 rpm to generate enough spark to start
      . I also fixed that by adding an E-mag on the left side and an improved Hon
      da coil on the right side. Now it's up and running before you can take your
       finger off the start button. This coupled with the 40 amp alternator that 
      charges while taxiing makes the airplane much more reliable.Just my humble 
      opinion.
      
      bobby
      
      
         
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
don van santen <donvansanten(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 28, 2018
Subject: 
Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators?
      
      
      Bob,
      The manufacture of Advanced Flight FFIS' recommends the IBBS system
      and provides inputs to their systems for tje IBBS. For me it mainly a
      brownout battery to keep the two EFIS alive during starting. The EFIS
      system is the only source of oil pressure measurements. The re-boot
      for the EFIS takes longer than the time I am willing to run the engine
      without knowing the oil pressure.   I have the z12 system minus the
      battery buss and e bus. I noticed that the standby alternator is
      connected to the starter contactor via a fusible link that uses a #16
      wire as the fuse.The feed to that link is a #10 wire. I thought that
      the normal design was to use a fuse link 4 sizes less than the feed.
      Is it ok to use #14 wire or is the #16 there to protect the alternator
      from putting out enough current to damage the alternator The B&C kit I
      bought included a 40 amp anl which also makes me wonder about the #16
      fuse link. Thanks in advance for any explanation.
      On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 4:17 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III
       wrote:
      >
      > At 06:22 PM 8/26/2018, you wrote:
      >
      >
      > IBBS is a small Lithium battery.
      > http://www.tcwtech.com/ibbs_integrated_backup_battery_system_3ah_6ah.html
      >
      > --------
      > Joe Gores
      >
      >
      >   Okay, thanks.  I just downloaded the patent on the
      >   ibbs  (8,189,305) along with 'related patents' citen
      >   on their website. I wonder if the circuitry in their
      >   patent truly represents the product . . . it's
      >   REALLY busy!  The patent is pretty long in the
      >   tooth . . . and much simpler approaches
      >   to a similar product are on the market.
      >
      >   Okay, installation instructions do include
      >   YEARLY checks for continued air worthiness.
      >   I presume one would check the chip's battery
      >   at the same time . . . which means the operator
      >   needs to develop his/her own airworthiness
      >   verification protocols.
      >
      >   Igor, what size IBBS are you installing
      >   and have you established your projected loads
      >   and design goals for endurance?
      >
      >
      >   Bob . . .
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators?
From: 
"user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 29, 2018
      
      
      In any circuit it is OK to use a smaller fuse than specified as long as it doesn't
      nuisance blow.  Same is true for a fuselink as long as it doesn't get too
      hot or drop too much voltage.  It should be OK to use a 14AWG fuselink.  But why
      not use 16AWG?  You could also use the ANL 40 instead of a fuselink.  The purpose
      of a fuse or fuselink is not to protect the alternator, but to protect
      the battery and wires.  An alternator does not need to be protected because it
      is self current limiting.   It can not put out more current than it is capable
      of.  The connected load determines the current.  An alternator will only put
      out what the load demands.
      
      --------
      Joe Gores
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482765#482765
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Tom Chapman <tomrv4(at)me.com>
Subject: 
Tube and fabric com ground plane
Date: 
Aug 29, 2018
      
      I am installing RAMI comm antenna on my tube and fabric high wing
      experimental. I've read up on creating a ground plane using adhesive copper
      strips. I plan to do a starburst pattern. Several of the copper strips will
      need to go over some of the fuselage tubing before continuing on being
      adhered to the fabric. Will it be helpful to use the steel tubing as part of
      the ground plane?
      
      
      I could sand off the paint coating on the tubes where the copper strips pass
      over them if this would help with the ground plane. (the adhesive used on
      the copper strips is supposed to be conductive)
      
      
      Thoughts?
      
      
      Thanks!
      
      Tom
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Tube and fabric com ground plane
From: 
"user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 29, 2018
      
      
      The steel fuselage tubing can be used for a ground plane if the antenna is located
      at a junction of 3 or more tubes.  Gluing copper strips to steel tubing is
      unlikely to do any good.  Adhesive is not usually conductive.  Don't count on
      it.
      
      --------
      Joe Gores
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482773#482773
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
don van santen <donvansanten(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 29, 2018
Subject: 
Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators?
      
      Thanks Joe, I used to know that. I got fooled by the warning in the B&C
      manual that says the standby alternator must be kept below 30 amps to avoid
      damage. It is a 40 amp alternator de-rated to 30A.
      
      On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 04:34 user9253  wrote:
      
      >
      > In any circuit it is OK to use a smaller fuse than specified as long as it
      > doesn't nuisance blow.  Same is true for a fuselink as long as it doesn't
      > get too hot or drop too much voltage.  It should be OK to use a 14AWG
      > fuselink.  But why not use 16AWG?  You could also use the ANL 40 instead of
      > a fuselink.  The purpose of a fuse or fuselink is not to protect the
      > alternator, but to protect the battery and wires.  An alternator does not
      > need to be protected because it is self current limiting.   It can not put
      > out more current than it is capable of.  The connected load determines the
      > current.  An alternator will only put out what the load demands.
      >
      > --------
      > Joe Gores
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482765#482765
      >
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators?
From: 
"user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 29, 2018
      
      
      The danger to alternators is over heating when heavily loaded.  A blast tube can
      help.
      
      --------
      Joe Gores
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482783#482783
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
don van santen <donvansanten(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Aug 29, 2018
Subject: 
Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2 Alternators?
      
      Thanks. My load analysis has me below 20a at night vfr and also ifr. After
      some hot starts especially those that take longer than usual I have seen as
      high as 45a on my primary alt. Have flown this way for over 2 yrs. Do not
      see any real issues. Was just wondering why Bob picked 16awg instead of 14
      on z12.
      
      On Aug 29, 2018 16:09, "user9253"  wrote:
      
      
      The danger to alternators is over heating when heavily loaded.  A blast
      tube can help.
      
      --------
      Joe Gores
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482783#482783
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 30, 2018
From: 
"Kent Ogden" <ogdenk(at)upstate.edu>
Subject: 
Ground power question
      
      I have added the ground power connector with overvoltage protection to my 
      RV-10 build per the instructions at
      
      http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
      
      As I look at the circuit, I wonder if the contactor will stay closed after 
      being energized if there is a charged battery.  Why won't current flow 
      back through the contactor and keep the coil energized if the ground power 
      is removed, there's no rectifier to prevent that?
      
      I don't have a battery in my plane yet so I haven't tested this out.
      
      Kent
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
<trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: 
Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2   Alternators?
Date: 
Aug 30, 2018
      
      Bob
      
      
      The man behind the IBBS and all other TcwTech products is an RV-10 builder,
      so perhaps he will chime in.
      
      
      Carlos  
      
      
      De: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
       Em nome de Robert L.
      Nuckolls, III
      Enviada: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 12:12 AM
      Para: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
      Assunto: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: DPDT Toggle switch for BAT and 2
      Alternators?
      
      
      At 06:22 PM 8/26/2018, you wrote:
      
      
       >
      
      IBBS is a small Lithium battery.
      http://www.tcwtech.com/ibbs_integrated_backup_battery_system_3ah_6ah.html 
      
      --------
      Joe Gores
      
      
        Okay, thanks.  I just downloaded the patent on the
        ibbs  (8,189,305) along with 'related patents' citen
        on their website. I wonder if the circuitry in their
        patent truly represents the product . . . it's
        REALLY busy!  The patent is pretty long in the
        tooth . . . and much simpler approaches
        to a similar product are on the market.
      
        Okay, installation instructions do include
        YEARLY checks for continued air worthiness.
        I presume one would check the chip's battery
        at the same time . . . which means the operator
        needs to develop his/her own airworthiness
        verification protocols.
      
        Igor, what size IBBS are you installing
        and have you established your projected loads
        and design goals for endurance?
      
      
        Bob . . . 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 30, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: Ground power question
      
      At 01:51 PM 8/30/2018, you wrote:
      >I have added the ground power connector with overvoltage protection 
      >to my RV-10 build per the instructions at
      >
      ><http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
      >
      >As I look at the circuit, I wonder if the contactor will stay closed 
      >after being energized if there is a charged battery.  Why won't 
      >current flow back through the contactor and keep the coil energized 
      >if the ground power is removed, there's no rectifier to prevent that?
      >
      >I don't have a battery in my plane yet so I haven't tested this out.
      
      
         You are correct . . . which is why there is an
         GND PWR annunciator light and crew controlled
         switch.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 30, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Standby batteries vs. alternators
      
      At 01:55 PM 8/30/2018, you wrote:
      >Bob
      >
      >The man behind the IBBS and all other TcwTech products is an RV-10 
      >builder, so perhaps he will chime in.
      >
      >Carlos
      
         Understand. I've studied the patents and
         product brochures. Aside from brown-out
         protection, I'm still not seeing a cost/
         benefit ratio in favor of 'standby' batteries
         of this or any flavor.
      
         They have a periodic maintenance burden that
         lasts the lifetime of the airplane and
         costs money to replace/refurbish when cells
         reach end of life. Their energy content
         is limited.
      
         Z-13/8 offers a standby power source that
         has no endurance limit. Low parts count.
         No periodic maintenance. Unlike batteries
         with a service life, the PM alternator should
         run lifetime of the airplane. Weighs
         less than a battery capable of supporting
         8A of endurance load for three hours.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Aug 30, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Fusible link question
      
      At 07:08 PM 8/29/2018, you wrote:
      >Thanks. My load analysis has me below 20a at night vfr and also ifr. 
      >After some hot starts especially those that take longer than usual I 
      >have seen as high as 45a on my primary alt. Have flown this way for 
      >over 2 yrs. Do not see any real issues. Was just wondering why Bob 
      >picked 16awg instead of 14 on z12.
      
         The 'rule of thumb . . . or wire" for fusible
         links suggest a link conductor 4AWG or more smaller
         than the protected line.  To me sure, a 10AWG wire
         would enjoy protection with 14AWG link . . . but
         at 20A, the 16AWG wire isn't breaking a sweat either.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Standby batteries vs. alternators
From: 
Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>
Date: 
Aug 30, 2018
      
      I may be able to add something here. I have a straight by the book Z-14 
      (2 Batts, 2 Alts) in my RV10 along with (3) GRT HX EFIS units. I've 
      been flying it for 7 years and 1,050 hours. Given that the Z-14 is 
      probably overkill for such a ship (Bob, I think you've referred to it 
      as 'everything including the kitchen sink'), it should be no surprise 
      that it seems bullet proof to me. But I go into IFR night missions with 
      a great deal of confidence in my 2-mag fired IO-540 and a dual buss 
      electrical system. I fly the out islands of the Bahamas confident that 
      I can get back or at least to a repair shop with any sort of single 
      electrical failure. I like it a lot.
      
      However, some specific details of my RV-10 configuration and some 
      evolving characteristics of the GRT HX EFISs have presented me with some 
      challenges that have made the Z-14 particularly valuable. And while I 
      don't have an IBBS, I would suggest that TCW's IPS (Intelligent Power 
      Stabilizer) may have some value in a GRT EFIS installation.
      
      Why theIPS <http://www.tcwtech.com/IPS-12v.htm>? The GRTs do not 
      incorporate any kind of power on/off switch and I chose not to add any. 
      Every and all instruments are displayed on any of the (3) units so it is 
      reasonable to think of the plane as not operational unless they are lit 
      up. The (3) I have installed represent a significant (unmeasured) load 
      and they are susceptible to brown-outs (aka re-boots or IPLs) during 
      engine start with the (2) Odyssey 680s I have mounted behind the baggage 
      compartment. The IPS has completely eliminated brown-outs with the added 
      benefit that it is not a 3rd battery requiring ongoing maintenance. I 
      would recommend this over the IBBS for an RV10 with multiple GRTs 
      suffering from brown-outs. More specifically I think one big battery, 2 
      alternators and an IPS may make a lot of sense for an RV10 with multiple 
      GRTs.
      
      Some background on my RV10 configuration:
      
        * I killed a couple of Odyssey 680 batteries during the first couple
          of years. The reason was 2-fold; 1) I was charging the batteries at
          too low a voltage (<14volts) and 2) the GRTs put a small load from
          an internal clock on one battery when powered off. A contributing
          factor included the inaccessible location of my B&C regulators
          discouraged me from adjusting the charging voltage. Later the
          internal clock was disconnected and replaced by a GPS clock signal.
          I finally got to the regulators with a custom built screwdriver and
          started charging the batts at max charging voltage - 14.7 volts
          (read the spec sheet - it's accurate).
        * Engine starts with both batteries tended to cause GRT re-boots.
          Early on, it seems that interrupted IPLs corrupted 2 of my GRT units
          according to the factory. It appears that they made some changes to
          prevent the corruption and this problem has not reoccurred in the
          last 5 years. These re-boots reduced me to watching the oil
          pressure warning ligh during starts. Since I had the starter and
          the GRTs on different buses, I began to do single battery starts but
          they always felt marginal at best. An underlying problem turned out
          to be the lightweight starter that was the default unit for RV10
          IO-540s thru Vans. I finally replaced the starter with the standard
          model and starts are now consistently solid even though the engine
          turns over more slowly.
        * The enhanced kitchen sink (EKS) system proved it's worth a couple of
          weeks ago departing out of Farmingdale Republic Airport in Long
          Island. I got the expected 5 waypoint/2 airway clearance for
          departure to the west. I dutifully loaded the whole thing into
          Foreflight for decoding the airway waypoints. Then loaded the
          flight plan into the Garmin 430. Normally I would have put the first
          few points in confident that things would change as the flight
          progressed but conditions encouraged me to keep the workload aloft
          to a minimum. By the time I got it all set up and taxiid out, a
          storm cell formed out of the blue directly overhead causing me to go
          back to the tie down to wait it out.
      
          Here's where the 2 batts come in handy. I confidently left the G430
          and the (3) GRT EFISs lit up though I dimmed the screens for energy
          conservation. Close to an hour later I returned, cross fed the 2
          buses, started up and asked for an update on my clearance. "If you
          still have the old one, use it, cleared to runway xx". It didn't
          matter much, I was held for release for over 20 minutes until I
          finally requested a VFR departure with the intent to pickup my IFR
          in the air. Not so coincidentally I was cleared for the original
          plan before 200' feet off the ground. NYC controllers respond best
          to a beep of the horn.
      
      Bill "Considering installation of a Z.30-06 for the deer population on 
      our runway" Watson
      
      
      On 8/30/2018 3:36 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
      > At 01:55 PM 8/30/2018, you wrote:
      >> Bob
      >>
      >> The man behind the IBBS and all other TcwTech products is an RV-10 
      >> builder, so perhaps he will chime in.
      >>
      >> Carlos 
      >
      >  Understand. I've studied the patents and
      >  product brochures. Aside from brown-out
      >  protection, I'm still not seeing a cost/
      >  benefit ratio in favor of 'standby' batteries
      >  of this or any flavor.
      >
      >  They have a periodic maintenance burden that
      >  lasts the lifetime of the airplane and
      >  costs money to replace/refurbish when cells
      >  reach end of life. Their energy content
      >  is limited.
      >
      >  Z-13/8 offers a standby power source that
      >  has no endurance limit. Low parts count.
      >  No periodic maintenance. Unlike batteries
      >  with a service life, the PM alternator should
      >  run lifetime of the airplane. Weighs
      >  less than a battery capable of supporting
      >  8A of endurance load for three hours.
      >
      >
      >  Bob . . .
      >
      
      
      ---
      This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
      https://www.avast.com/antivirus
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Tcwtech <rnewman(at)tcwtech.com>
Date: 
Aug 31, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Standby batteries vs. alternators
      
      The IBBS system provides brownout protection during engine starting, which w
      ith all efis systems today is highly desirable.    Additionally,  the ibbs s
      ystem provides a redundant path of power to the connected load.   The major e
      fis systems these days all provide dual inputs for power.    One is provided
       via the main ships power source, the other from a second source, such as ou
      r ibbs unit.   In the event of any failure of the primary source, the ibbs w
      ill take over and continue to power the efis.    The ibbs system also includ
      es a low voltage warning indicator function that may be used to annunciate a
       lv condition of the main bus.    Additionally , the IBBS system includes ov
      er voltage protection devices to help protect the connected equipment  from h
      igh voltage transients.   
      
      Many of our customers tell us they enjoy the benefit of being able to get in
       their plane and just turn on the ibbs system only to do flight planing and p
      re-flight inspection without yet having to turn on the ships main battery.  
        Then, when finally ready to go, they engage the main contractor and fire u
      p the engine.   
      
      Lastly, the Ibbs family includes experimental models and certified models.  
       All of which have enjoyed the rigor of testing to DO-160 and DO-311
      and DO-347.   
      
      One of the great advantage of experimental aircraft is that you get to decid
      e for yourself how to architect your electrical system.   You can roll your o
      wn in every way or purchase pre engineered solutions.   There=99s no w
      rong answer.  
      
      
      Bob Newman
      TCW Technologies, LLC
      610-928-3420
      
      > On Aug 30, 2018, at 20:36, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelect
      ric.com> wrote:
      > 
      > At 01:55 PM 8/30/2018, you wrote:
      >> Bob
      >>  
      >> The man behind the IBBS and all other TcwTech products is an RV-10 builde
      r, so perhaps he will chime in.
      >>  
      >> Carlos 
      > 
      >   Understand. I've studied the patents and
      >   product brochures. Aside from brown-out
      >   protection, I'm still not seeing a cost/
      >   benefit ratio in favor of 'standby' batteries
      >   of this or any flavor.
      > 
      >   They have a periodic maintenance burden that
      >   lasts the lifetime of the airplane and
      >   costs money to replace/refurbish when cells
      >   reach end of life. Their energy content
      >   is limited.
      > 
      >   Z-13/8 offers a standby power source that
      >   has no endurance limit. Low parts count.
      >   No periodic maintenance. Unlike batteries
      >   with a service life, the PM alternator should
      >   run lifetime of the airplane. Weighs
      >   less than a battery capable of supporting
      >   8A of endurance load for three hours.
      >   
      > 
      > 
      >   Bob . . .
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 08, 2018
Subject: 
Rotax 912iS Electrical Charging System
      
      This question is specifically in relation to the Rotax 912iS stock
      electrical system. Lane A and B voltages are rock steady at 14 V, but the
      volt sensor on the Dynon Skyview is seeing 13.5 - 13.7 V. The aircraft is
      wired exactly as per Rotax installation instructions and follows their wire
      size recommendations. I'm going to stick a voltmeter on the battery
      tomorrow and see what the actual voltage at the battery is while the engine
      is running but if it confirms the Dynon reading I'm concerned the battery
      is never going to be charged.
      
      The strange thing is the Dynon Skyview default for this engine's voltage
      output has 13.5 in the middle of the green band. For a Lycoming or
      Continental I put the green band at 14-14.5
      
      Is anyone here familiar with the 912iS? If this is how the system is
      designed, what are the implications for an Odyssey PC680 that spends most
      of it's waking life at 13.5 V?
      
      Thank you all,
      
      Sebastien
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 09, 2018
From: 
hshack(at)aol.com
Subject: 
Rotax 912iS Electrical Charging  System
      
      Thank you for the email. Please know that Howard has passed away. If you are NOT
      a solicitor, please contact his wife Judy at tudulu2(at)aol.com
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 09, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: Rotax 912iS Electrical Charging System
      
      
      >
      >The strange thing is the Dynon Skyview default for this engine's 
      >voltage output has 13.5 in the middle of the green band. For a 
      >Lycoming or Continental I put the green band at 14-14.5
      
      
          An SVLA battery should be run at no less than 14.0
          and no more that 14.8 with 14.4 being the nominal
          "target". Anything below 14.0 has a high probability
          of failing to top off the battery after a significant
          discharge. This has nothing to do with the make/model
          of the engine.
      
      
      >Is anyone here familiar with the 912iS? If this is how the system is 
      >designed, what are the implications for an Odyssey PC680 that spends 
      >most of it's waking life at 13.5 V?
      
          If true, that battery is seriously under-served for
          charging.
      
          Your proposal to investigate battery terminal
          voltage while in flight is a good move. Keep in
          mind just because a certain voltage is recorded
          at one place in a system, it's not a sure bet
          that the same voltage will be recorded elsewhere
          even tho both points are connected with copper
          pathways. There are subtle but significant voltage
          drops in system wiring. Further, if the readings
          are taken with two different instruments, it's
          possible that they may not be calibrated to the
          same accuracy.
      
          Irrespective of engine, the voltage regulator's
          prime directive is TAKE CARE OF A BATTERY. Given
          that there's a lot of copper monkey-motion between
          the regulator and battery, the regulator's electronics
          can only ASSUME that it knows what battery voltage
          is.
      
          For SVLA batteries, voltage in cruising flight with
          a fully charged battery should be in the 14.2 to
          14.6 range.  If the alternator is off for any
          reason, the battery voltage will fall quickly to
          something under 13.0 volts. when the battery falls
          to 11.0 volts, it has probably less than 5% of
          it's maximum capacity remaining.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 09, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: Arctic super-flex wire
      
      At 06:14 PM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
      >Short lengths of 12,10,8 and 4awg are on the way. Let us know what you think.
      >
      >
      >Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve.
      
          Got Steve's samples in the mail a few days ago.
          Pretty nice stuff. Certainly adequate to our
          fat-wire needs. Flexibility on the same order
          as welding cable and available at comparable
          prices.
      
      http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Wire/Actic%20UltraFlex/Arctic%20UltraFlex.pdf
      
      
          I did a po' boy's fat-wire terminal installation
          by the stuff-n-solder method  . . .
      
      http://aeroelectric.com/articles/big_term.pdf
      
          The insulation was well behaved and demonstrated
          little if any melt-back from the soldering operation.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Henry Hallam <henry(at)pericynthion.org>
Date: 
Sep 09, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Arctic super-flex wire
      
      Bob,
      
      My concern with similar high-strand-count wires for aircraft applications
      has been that the soft silicone insulation doesn't seem to offer much
      protection against cutting and abrasion.
      
      What's your take on that? Just be careful to route and support it properly
      and avoid nicking it with tools during maintenance? Or is the insulation on
      this wire superior?
      
      Henry
      
      On Sun, Sep 9, 2018, 11:07 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
      nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
      
      > At 06:14 PM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
      >
      > Short lengths of 12,10,8 and 4awg are on the way. Let us know what you
      > think.
      >
      >
      > Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve.
      >
      >
      >    Got Steve's samples in the mail a few days ago.
      >    Pretty nice stuff. Certainly adequate to our
      >    fat-wire needs. Flexibility on the same order
      >    as welding cable and available at comparable
      >    prices.
      >
      >
      > http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Wire/Actic%20UltraFlex/Arctic%20UltraFlex.pdf
      >
      >
      >    I did a po' boy's fat-wire terminal installation
      >    by the stuff-n-solder method  . . .
      >
      > http://aeroelectric.com/articles/big_term.pdf
      >
      >    The insulation was well behaved and demonstrated
      >    little if any melt-back from the soldering operation.
      >
      >
      >   Bob . . .
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Arctic super-flex wire
From: 
Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 09, 2018
      
      I'm not Bob, but if you're talking about the welding cable a lot of us 
      use, do you know any welders? Ever watched what happens to cables on a 
      shop floor, or on a construction site?
      
      The bigger (pardon the pun) issue is that the insulation is quite a bit 
      thicker than milspec wire's insulation, so if you're running it from 
      behind the seats to the firewall, it'll fill up the holes in your 
      bulkheads quicker.
      
      Not sure about the silicone reference; EPDM seems to be a more common 
      insulator.
      
      Charlie
      
      On 9/9/2018 3:14 PM, Henry Hallam wrote:
      > Bob,
      >
      > My concern with similar high-strand-count wires for aircraft 
      > applications has been that the soft silicone insulation doesn't seem 
      > to offer much protection against cutting and abrasion.
      >
      > What's your take on that? Just be careful to route and support it 
      > properly and avoid nicking it with tools during maintenance? Or is the 
      > insulation on this wire superior?
      >
      > Henry
      >
      > On Sun, Sep 9, 2018, 11:07 Robert L. Nuckolls, III 
      > > 
      > wrote:
      >
      >     At 06:14 PM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
      >>     Short lengths of 12,10,8 and 4awg are on the way. Let us know
      >>     what you think.
      >>
      >>
      >>     Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve.
      >
      >      Got Steve's samples in the mail a few days ago.
      >      Pretty nice stuff. Certainly adequate to our
      >      fat-wire needs. Flexibility on the same order
      >      as welding cable and available at comparable
      >      prices.
      >
      >     http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Wire/Actic%20UltraFlex/Arctic%20UltraFlex.pdf
      >
      >
      >      I did a po' boy's fat-wire terminal installation
      >      by the stuff-n-solder method . . .
      >
      >     http://aeroelectric.com/articles/big_term.pdf
      >     <http://aeroelectric.com/articles/big_term.pdf>
      >
      >      The insulation was well behaved and demonstrated
      >      little if any melt-back from the soldering operation.
      >
      >
      >      Bob . . .
      >
      
      
      ---
      This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
      https://www.avast.com/antivirus
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 09, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: Arctic super-flex wire
      
      At 03:14 PM 9/9/2018, you wrote:
      >Bob,
      >
      >My concern with similar high-strand-count wires for aircraft 
      >applications has been that the soft silicone insulation doesn't seem 
      >to offer much protection against cutting and abrasion.
      >
      >What's your take on that? Just be careful to route and support it 
      >properly and avoid nicking it with tools during maintenance? Or is 
      >the insulation on this wire superior?
      >
      >Henry
      
         The samples I have don't look/feel like silicone.
         The product data sheet I posted speaks to properties
         of the insulation but without mentioning 'silicone'.
      
         The same data sheet suggests a spectrum of
         applications  . . .
      
      Emacs!
      
      
         I suspect that mechanical risks to insulation
         failure in airplanes is no greater than many
         of those applications cited.
      
         "Cutting" and "abrasion" distresses will attack
         ANY insulation. Installation and routing practices
         should seek to eliminate such risks irrespective
         of type of insulation.
      
      
         Bob . . .  
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 09, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Arctic super-flex wire
      
      Thanks for checking it out Bob.
      
      
      Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve.
      
      On Sun, Sep 9, 2018, 10:04 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
      nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
      
      > At 06:14 PM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
      >
      > Short lengths of 12,10,8 and 4awg are on the way. Let us know what you
      > think.
      >
      >
      > Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve.
      >
      >
      >    Got Steve's samples in the mail a few days ago.
      >    Pretty nice stuff. Certainly adequate to our
      >    fat-wire needs. Flexibility on the same order
      >    as welding cable and available at comparable
      >    prices.
      >
      >
      > http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Wire/Actic%20UltraFlex/Arctic%20UltraFlex.pdf
      >
      >
      >    I did a po' boy's fat-wire terminal installation
      >    by the stuff-n-solder method  . . .
      >
      > http://aeroelectric.com/articles/big_term.pdf
      >
      >    The insulation was well behaved and demonstrated
      >    little if any melt-back from the soldering operation.
      >
      >
      >   Bob . . .
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 09, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
B-lead relay for IR Alternator
      
      At 10:07 AM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
      >At 05:36 AM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
      >>i started wiring my ovm and i have a question 
      >>about auto relays. the contactor i have for the 
      >>lead off my alternator really bugs me that i am 
      >>adding 14 ounces just for this ''switch''. my 
      >>alternator is rated at 37 amps but the 40 and 
      >>even 50 amp auto relays look like that have a 
      >>''faston tab'' for their terminal. are these 
      >>terminals up to carrying the load from the alternator?
      >>=C2 bob
      >
      >   You might consider this product:
      >
      >https://goo.gl/UAVJMw
      >
      >   I have no experience with these . . . I'm
      >   going to order one to peek and poke at . . .
      >   but the specs are right.
      >
      >   I'd wire the b-lead up with 6AWG welding
      >   cable.
      >
      >https://goo.gl/BxAj1V
      
         I ordered one of those relays in to look at:
         Here are the 'tear down' photos.
      
         https://tinyurl.com/y7aw646a
      
         This critter seems nicely built. The resting
         current for the coil at 14v is about 0.3 amps
         for an internal dissipation of about 4.5 watts.
         Not seriously pushing it for this size package.
         I think I would mount it with the terminals facing
         down. This would cause any drips or condensate to
         collect on the closeout panel . . . and
         facilitate expulsion during the next
         flight cycle.
      
         At 4.5 watts it's too hot to keep your
         hand on it . . . but battery contactors
         do that too.
      
         Internal 'werks' seem robust enough. The
         stationary and moveable contacts both
         feature precious alloy crowns.  I think
         it's worth trying as the b-lead disconnect
         relay in an ov management system on an
         internally regulated alternator.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 10, 2018
From: 
Rod Smith <rodsmith52(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Re: B-lead relay for IR Alternator
      
      Glad to hear that this relay checks out. I will order one to use as an aux battery
      contactor, will see 10-12 amp max.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 10, 2018
From: 
Rod Smith <rodsmith52(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Re: B-lead relay for IR Alternator
      
      Glad to hear that this relay checks out. I will order one to use as an aux battery
      contactor, will see 10-12 amp max.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 11, 2018
Subject: 
Re: B-lead relay for IR Alternator
      
      i ordered that relay and just got it installed for my b lead ovm. glad to
      hear your report, bob. i was a little worried about the plastic mounting
      point breaking so mine is mounted with the mounting point flat down against
      a surface.
       bob noffs
      
      On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 5:04 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
      nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
      
      > At 10:07 AM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
      >
      > At 05:36 AM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
      >
      > i started wiring my ovm and i have a question about auto relays. the
      > contactor i have for the lead off my alternator really bugs me that i am
      > adding 14 ounces just for this ''switch''. my alternator is rated at 37
      > amps but the 40 and even 50 amp auto relays look like that have a ''fasto
      n
      > tab'' for their terminal. are these terminals up to carrying the load fro
      m
      > the alternator?
      > =C3=82 bob
      >
      >
      >   You might consider this product:
      >
      > https://goo.gl/UAVJMw
      >
      >   I have no experience with these . . . I'm
      >   going to order one to peek and poke at . . .
      >   but the specs are right.
      >
      >   I'd wire the b-lead up with 6AWG welding
      >   cable.
      >
      > https://goo.gl/BxAj1V
      >
      >
      >   I ordered one of those relays in to look at:
      >   Here are the 'tear down' photos.
      >
      >   https://tinyurl.com/y7aw646a
      >
      >   This critter seems nicely built. The resting
      >   current for the coil at 14v is about 0.3 amps
      >   for an internal dissipation of about 4.5 watts.
      >   Not seriously pushing it for this size package.
      >   I think I would mount it with the terminals facing
      >   down. This would cause any drips or condensate to
      >   collect on the closeout panel . . . and
      >   facilitate expulsion during the next
      >   flight cycle.
      >
      >   At 4.5 watts it's too hot to keep your
      >   hand on it . . . but battery contactors
      >   do that too.
      >
      >   Internal 'werks' seem robust enough. The
      >   stationary and moveable contacts both
      >   feature precious alloy crowns.  I think
      >   it's worth trying as the b-lead disconnect
      >   relay in an ov management system on an
      >   internally regulated alternator.
      >
      >
      >   Bob . . .
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 11, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: B-lead relay for IR Alternator
      
      At 06:31 AM 9/11/2018, you wrote:
      >i ordered that relay and just got it installed 
      >for my b lead ovm. glad to hear your report, 
      >bob. i was a little worried about the plastic 
      >mounting point breaking so mine is mounted with 
      >the mounting point flat down against a surface.
      >=C2 bob noffs
      
         Yeah . . . I supecdt the housing is glass-filled
         nylon . . . pretty robust. But that's also why
         I suggested 'soft' fat-wires like welding cable.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 13, 2018
Subject: 
Thermocouple Wire Connections
      
      I am wiring some of these CHT probes to a Dynon Skyview
      
      
      I'm hoping to connect them with these
      
      https://buy-ei.com/portfolio/olc-1/
      
      as recommended by Dynon but as you can see the probes come with bullet
      connectors. I don't have any female connectors for the bullets. Will it
      mess up the readings to cut the bullet connectors off, strip the wire, and
      connect them to the Dynon harness using the OLC-1s?
      
      Thank you,
      
      Sebastien
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 13, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Thermocouple Wire Connections
      
      Sebastien:
      
      Not at all!  You just have to figure out the polarity.  Voltage output
      should be something like 23 microvolts per Deg F.
      BUT!  Why do you want to use an Under The Spark Plug sensor?  In general:
      1 - They read High.
      2 - They are very slow in reacting.
      3 - They break easy.
      
      Your choice of wire connector is a good one.  I have done dozens & dozens
      of connections using that connector.  WAY easier to use them than the nut &
      bolt system from JPI.
      
      Barry
      
      On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:54 AM Sebastien  wrote:
      
      > I am wiring some of these CHT probes to a Dynon Skyview
      >
      >
      > I'm hoping to connect them with these
      >
      > https://buy-ei.com/portfolio/olc-1/
      >
      > as recommended by Dynon but as you can see the probes come with bullet
      > connectors. I don't have any female connectors for the bullets. Will it
      > mess up the readings to cut the bullet connectors off, strip the wire, and
      > connect them to the Dynon harness using the OLC-1s?
      >
      > Thank you,
      >
      > Sebastien
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 13, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: Thermocouple Wire Connections
      
      At 09:46 AM 9/13/2018, you wrote:
      >I am wiring some of these CHT probes to a Dynon Skyview
      >
      >[]
      >
      >I'm hoping to connect them with these
      >
      >https://buy-ei.com/portfolio/olc-1/
      >
      >as recommended by Dynon but as you can see the probes come with 
      >bullet connectors. I don't have any female connectors for the 
      >bullets. Will it mess up the readings to cut the bullet connectors 
      >off, strip the wire, and connect them to the Dynon harness using the OLC-1s?
      
         Looks good.  The cool thing about modern thermocouple
         sensor/indicator systems is the very low currents
         flowing in the thermocouple 'loop'. Back when
         thermocouples were used to POWER an instrument
         on the panel, the voltages were small but the
         currents significant . . . loop resistance had
         to be kept LOW and FIXED. Thermocouple wiring
         was rather fat. Long runs to measure CHT, EGT
         or oil TEMP on the outboard engines of something
         like the B29 might have been 18 or even 16AWG.
      
         This was because thermocouples like Type K . . .
      
      Emacs!
      
      
         Generated only 7.7 MILLIVOLTS off reference
         at 190 degrees-C.  Your error budget for voltage
         drop in wiring was exceedingly small!
      
         Nowadays, the panel mounted instruments are capable
         of resolving the 400 or so microvolt difference
         between 180 and 190C with a very high input impedance
         to the instrument. No need to maintain
         very low resistance pathways in the thermocouple
         loops You only need to manage parasitic
         couples.
      
         The OLC-1 brings like-metals in the T/C loop direcly
         in contact with each other . . . no parasitic couples.
         So while the OLC-1 splices would be frowned upon
         to join wires in a power feeder with significant
         current, potential for upsetting the accuracy
         in a modern thermocouple instrumentation loop is nil.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Thermocouple Wire Connections
From: 
Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net>
Date: 
Sep 13, 2018
      
      
      Barry, this is probably a Rotax engine, as far as I know they have only 
      this kind of CHT probes, no boss mounted like on a Lycoming.
      
      Cheers Werner
      
      On 13.09.2018 16:59, FLYaDIVE wrote:
      > Sebastien:
      > 
      
      > BUT! Why do you want to use an Under The Spark Plug sensor? In general:
      > 1 - They read High.
      > 2 - They are very slow in reacting.
      > 3 - They break easy.
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
A R Goldman <argoldman(at)aol.com>
Date: 
Sep 13, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Thermocouple Wire Connections
      
      Sebastien,
      
      Those connectors should work however you may need to cut off the existing co
      nnectors on the wires to get a good connection
      
      Rich
      
      Sent from my iPhone
      
      > On Sep 13, 2018, at 9:59 AM, FLYaDIVE  wrote:
      > 
      > Sebastien:
      > 
      > Not at all!  You just have to figure out the polarity.  Voltage output sho
      uld be something like 23 microvolts per Deg F.
      > BUT!  Why do you want to use an Under The Spark Plug sensor?  In general:
      > 1 - They read High.
      > 2 - They are very slow in reacting.
      > 3 - They break easy.
      > 
      > Your choice of wire connector is a good one.  I have done dozens & dozens o
      f connections using that connector.  WAY easier to use them than the nut & b
      olt system from JPI.
      > 
      > Barry
      > 
      >> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:54 AM Sebastien  wrote:
      >> I am wiring some of these CHT probes to a Dynon Skyview
      >> 
      >> 
      >> I'm hoping to connect them with these
      >> 
      >> https://buy-ei.com/portfolio/olc-1/
      >> 
      >> as recommended by Dynon but as you can see the probes come with bullet co
      nnectors. I don't have any female connectors for the bullets. Will it mess u
      p the readings to cut the bullet connectors off, strip the wire, and connect
       them to the Dynon harness using the OLC-1s?
      >> 
      >> Thank you,
      >> 
      >> Sebastien
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: 
Sep 13, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Thermocouple Wire Connections
      
      Werner,
      
      My Rotax 914 has Rotax provided boss mounted thermal sensors on 
      cylinders 1 and 4.  My GRT EIS 4000 can read their input quite well.  I 
      put small ring thermal sensors provided by GRT onto the cylinder head of 
      cylinders 2 and 3 by screwing them onto bosses provided.  They seem to 
      read well enough as all 4 are very close in temperature readout.
      
      Blue skies & tailwinds,
      Bob Borger
      Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (130 hrs).
      Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP, Hercules 
      Prop.
      3705 Lynchburg Dr.
      Corinth, TX  76208-5331
      Cel: 817-992-1117
      rlborger(at)mac.com 
      
      On Sep 13, 2018, at 3:13 PM, Werner Schneider  wrote:
      
      
      
      Barry, this is probably a Rotax engine, as far as I know they have only 
      this kind of CHT probes, no boss mounted like on a Lycoming.
      
      Cheers Werner
      
      On 13.09.2018 16:59, FLYaDIVE wrote:
      > Sebastien:
      
      > BUT!  Why do you want to use an Under The Spark Plug sensor?  In 
      general:
      > 1 - They read High.
      > 2 - They are very slow in reacting.
      > 3 - They break easy.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 13, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Thermocouple Wire Connections
      
      Werner:
      
      Well, that explains it!
      
      Question:  Aren't Rotax engines water cooled?  <--  The 4 cycle ones?
      So, if they are water cooled would you use just ONE CHT Probe?
      I do not work on Rotax so, I'm theorizing.
      
      Thanks Werner,
      
      Barry
      
      
      On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 4:18 PM Werner Schneider  wrote:
      
      > >
      >
      > Barry, this is probably a Rotax engine, as far as I know they have only
      > this kind of CHT probes, no boss mounted like on a Lycoming.
      >
      > Cheers Werner
      >
      > On 13.09.2018 16:59, FLYaDIVE wrote:
      > > Sebastien:
      > >
      >
      > > BUT!  Why do you want to use an Under The Spark Plug sensor?  In general:
      > > 1 - They read High.
      > > 2 - They are very slow in reacting.
      > > 3 - They break easy.
      > >
      >
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
<billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Subject: 
240 VAC Motor Question
Date: 
Sep 13, 2018
      
      Greetings,
      
      
      This is a (slightly) off topic but I am reaching out to the smartest guys I
      know regarding this stuff.
      
      
      I am FINALLY getting around to wiring up the switch you all helped me find a
      couple of months ago on my 2 post car lift (it is in an airplane hangar so
      it is legal to post on this forum).  
      
      
      The car lift has an electric motor that drives a hydraulic pump.  The
      Normally Open switch when pushed starts the motor and the hydraulic pump
      moves the car up.  To lower the car there is a hydraulic pressure relief
      valve meaning the motor/pump only operates one direction.
      
      
      The black and white wires from my 2 pole circuit breaker panel and the green
      bond wire are easy for me to figure out.
      
      
      Inside the wiring box of the lift is a bit more complicated.  Attached is a
      picture of the schematic label on the side of the wiring box and a picture
      of the relay unit housed inside the box. 
      
      
      Inside the wiring box there are the following wires:
      
      -Green + yellow stripe wire that has a ground lug on the motor case and a
      the other end is a loose end.
      
      -Green wire that has a lug on one end and the other end enters the internals
      of the relay box
      
      -Blue wire that is loose on one end and the other end enters the internals
      of the relay box.
      
      -Brown wire that goes to the 5/L3 lug of the relay unit and the other end is
      a loose end.
      
      -Brown wire that has a lug on one end and the other end is a loose end
      
      
      Can someone please help me "remember" what wires go to what on this
      contraption???
      
      
      I would GREATLY APPRECIATE your help on this!!!
      
      
      .
      
      Thanks,
      
      
      Bill Hunter
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 13, 2018
Subject: 
Re: 240 VAC Motor Question
      
      Bill:
      
      It is a lot easier with the units in front of me, but...
      Here is a link that supports the colors you mention.
      Oh, there are two standards in wiring motors:
      1 - Wire Color Code - Which is not used very much and
      2 - Wire Numbering - Much easier to understand.
      
      This link shows the color code you are seeing:
      
      https://www.doityourself.com/forum/electrical-ac-dc/396012-bodine-electric-
      motor-wiring.html
      
      For a 220 AC Line:
      T1 goes to L1
      T4 & T5 go to L2
      ALL the other wires get tied together and wire nutted and electrical tape
      wrapped.
      
      I need better pictures or schematic of the relay.
      But, Since as you say the Motor is ONLY powered and in one direction the
      relay is used to control that applied power as stated above.
      
      Just tie the lines together through the relay so :
      1 - A switch energizes the relay.
      2 - L1 and L2 Go to each 110 V lines (110 + 110 = 220)
      
      Hope this helps.
      
      Barry
      
      
      On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 9:58 PM  wrote:
      
      > Greetings,
      >
      >
      > This is a (slightly) off topic but I am reaching out to the smartest guys
      > I know regarding this stuff
      >
      >
      > I am FINALLY getting around to wiring up the switch you all helped me fin
      d
      > a couple of months ago on my 2 post car lift (it is in an airplane hangar
      > so it is legal to post on this forum).
      >
      >
      > The car lift has an electric motor that drives a hydraulic pump.  The
      > Normally Open switch when pushed starts the motor and the hydraulic pump
      > moves the car up.  To lower the car there is a hydraulic pressure relief
      > valve meaning the motor/pump only operates one direction.
      >
      >
      > The black and white wires from my 2 pole circuit breaker panel and the
      > green bond wire are easy for me to figure out.
      >
      >
      > Inside the wiring box of the lift is a bit more complicated.  Attached is
      > a picture of the schematic label on the side of the wiring box and a
      > picture of the relay unit housed inside the box.
      >
      >
      > Inside the wiring box there are the following wires:
      >
      > -Green + yellow stripe wire that has a ground lug on the motor case and a
      > the other end is a loose end.
      >
      > -Green wire that has a lug on one end and the other end enters the
      > internals of the relay box
      >
      > -Blue wire that is loose on one end and the other end enters the internal
      s
      > of the relay box.
      >
      > -Brown wire that goes to the 5/L3 lug of the relay unit and the other end
      > is a loose end.
      >
      > -Brown wire that has a lug on one end and the other end is a loose end
      >
      >
      > Can someone please help me =9Cremember=9D what wires go to wh
      at on this
      > contraption???
      >
      >
      > I would GREATLY APPRECIATE your help on this!!!
      >
      >
      > 
      >
      > Thanks,
      >
      >
      > Bill Hunter
      >
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: 240 VAC Motor Question
From: 
"user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 13, 2018
      
      
      Bill,
      There are no pictures attached to your post.
      
      --------
      Joe Gores
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483169#483169
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Rotax Charging System
From: 
"jrevens" <jrevens(at)comcast.net>
Date: 
Sep 13, 2018
      
      
      I don't believe I've ever seen a definitive answer to the question of what the
      exact purpose of the 22,000 mfd capacitor is in the 912 charging circuit.  Can
      anyone answer that question?  I apologize if the answer is buried somewhere in
      the archives of this forum, and I just haven't searched far enough to find it.
      
      --------
      John Evens
      Thorp T-18 N71JE (built & flying)
      Kitfox SS7 N27JE (building)
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483172#483172
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 14, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Rotax Charging System
      
      John,
      
      Filtering.
      
      Barry
      
      On Friday, September 14, 2018, jrevens  wrote:
      
      >
      > I don't believe I've ever seen a definitive answer to the question of what
      > the exact purpose of the 22,000 mfd capacitor is in the 912 charging
      > circuit.  Can anyone answer that question?  I apologize if the answer is
      > buried somewhere in the archives of this forum, and I just haven't searched
      > far enough to find it.
      >
      > --------
      > John Evens
      > Thorp T-18 N71JE (built & flying)
      > Kitfox SS7 N27JE (building)
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483172#483172
      >
      >
      
      -- 
      Barry
      "Chop'd Liver"
      If you wash your hands before you go to the bathroom you may have the
      makings of a Crew Chief.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Thermocouple Wire Connections
From: 
Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net>
Date: 
Sep 14, 2018
      
      
      Thanks Bob for setting it right it's a while since I've worked on a 
      Rotax :) Do you know if the 912 has that as well meanwhile?
      
      Cheers Werner
      
      On 14.09.2018 02:37, Robert Borger wrote:
      > Werner,
      >
      > My Rotax 914 has Rotax provided boss mounted thermal sensors on 
      > cylinders 1 and 4. My GRT EIS 4000 can read their input quite well. 
      > I put small ring thermal sensors provided by GRT onto the cylinder 
      > head of cylinders 2 and 3 by screwing them onto bosses provided. They 
      > seem to read well enough as all 4 are very close in temperature readout.
      >
      > Blue skies & tailwinds,
      > Bob Borger
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Todd Bartrim <bartrim(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 14, 2018
Subject: 
IVO current limiter project
      
      What was the final status of this current limiter project?
      I've downloaded all the info from the Aeroelectric site but it is still
      labeled as under development.
      I'd like to build one, but before I order a few boards from pcbExpress, I
      just wanted to know if the project is completed as it stands now?
        The components are cheap but the board is expensive and I'll end up with
      3 of them, so is there anyone else who would like a board?
        It looks like I'll also have to invest in a PICkit 1 flash starter kit.
      These are no longer made as they are now up to version 3, but they can
      still be bought on eBay. Or is there anyone who was previously involved in
      this project that can program a chip for me?
      
      Thanks
      
      Todd Bartrim
      
      C-FSTB
      RV9
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 14, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Thermocouple Wire Connections
      
      Bob Borger & Werner,
      
      I=99m theorizing once again.  Since ROTAX has only two bosses for CHT
       sensors
      and they are diagonally opposit each other and the engine is water cooled
      the sensors must be averaging or at least =98mellowing=99 the r
      eadings.  It is
      more like a car which has only one temperature gauge.
      
      Question: Has anyone used a CHT reading to diagnose and pin point a
      particular cylinder problem?  Of course since there are only two cylinders
      with probes the problem would have to be on those cylinders.  Unless...
      There is such an increase in temperature that, it defines a problem.
      
      Barry
      ======
      
      On Friday, September 14, 2018, Werner Schneider  wrote:
      
      t
      > >
      >
      > Thanks Bob for setting it right it's a while since I've worked on a Rotax
      > :) Do you know if the 912 has that as well meanwhile?
      >
      > Cheers Werner
      >
      > On 14.09.2018 02:37, Robert Borger wrote:
      >
      >> Werner,
      >>
      >> My Rotax 914 has Rotax provided boss mounted thermal sensors on cylinder
      s
      >> 1 and 4.  My GRT EIS 4000 can read their input quite well.  I put small
      >> ring thermal sensors provided by GRT onto the cylinder head of cylinders
       2
      >> and 3 by screwing them onto bosses provided.  They seem to read well eno
      ugh
      >> as all 4 are very close in temperature readout.
      >>
      >> Blue skies & tailwinds,
      >> Bob Borger
      >>
      >
      ===========
      ===========
      ===========
      ===========
      ===========
      >
      >
      
      -- 
      Barry
      "Chop'd Liver"
      If you wash your hands before you go to the bathroom you may have the
      makings of a Crew Chief.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Thermocouple Wire Connections
From: 
Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: 
Sep 14, 2018
      
      
      Barry,
      
      The Rotax 9xx series of engines have liquid cooled heads and air cooled cylinders.
      The CHT sensors are placed on what should be the extremes of CHT.  #1 should
      be the coolest CHT and #4 should be the warmest CHT.  #2 & #3 should be somewhere
      in between.  Rotax also has a separate coolant temperature sensor on the
      output of the manifold where the 4 returns from the cylinder head combine.
      
      
      I dont think that CHT is used as a diagnostic in trouble shooting.  It is a warning
      of serious problems in the cylinder like detonation or preignition.  If one
      sees a rapidly increasing, out of limit, CHT, its time to reduce the throttle
      and find a place to land.
      
      Blue skies & tailwinds,
      Bob Borger
      Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (130 hrs).
      Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP, Hercules Prop.
      3705 Lynchburg Dr.
      Corinth, TX  76208-5331
      Cel: 817-992-1117
      rlborger(at)mac.com
      
      On Sep 14, 2018, at 7:32 AM, FLYaDIVE  wrote:
      
      Bob Borger & Werner,
      
      Im theorizing once again.  Since ROTAX has only two bosses for CHT sensors and
      they are diagonally opposit each other and the engine is water cooled the sensors
      must be averaging or at least mellowing the readings.  It is more like a car
      which has only one temperature gauge.  
      
      Question: Has anyone used a CHT reading to diagnose and pin point a particular
      cylinder problem?  Of course since there are only two cylinders with probes the
      problem would have to be on those cylinders.  Unless... There is such an increase
      in temperature that, it defines a problem.
      
      Barry 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: IVO current limiter project
From: 
"user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 14, 2018
      
      
      The builder who used this project on his plane posted that it worked very well.
      Read Dennis' post near the bottom of this thread:
      http://www.matronics.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=470854&sid=213ec347d8eaec8f1c56ef0d4cf417c8 
      
      I have purchased PCB boards from elecrow.com at low prices compared to local PCB
      houses.  The disadvantage is that it takes up a month to get the boards.
      
      A low cost option is to use a magnetic reed switch instead of the circuit board.
      Wrap a reed switch with several turns of wire.  Put that wire in series with
      the motor.  When the motor current is high, the reed switch will close and turn
      on an indicator light.
      
      --------
      Joe Gores
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483180#483180
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Hamish Mead <hamish.mead(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 14, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Thermocouple Wire Connections
      
      Hi group,
      
      My first post here after lurking for sometime, thank you :)
      
      Sebastien - perfect timing on this topic as I need to make up some new CHT
      probes to fit a Jabiru 2200 engine. You said:
      > I am wiring some of these CHT probes to a Dynon Skyview
      Could you post a product link to the CHT probes/terminals please? (I only
      get the list daily digest and guess you posted an image - I'll change my
      subscription type in a moment).
      
      Also; I read Bob's article on DIY CHT probes, but still have a few
      questions - hope the group don't mind overloading a thread:
      
      So far I ordered some AMP / TE 328975 12 mm ring terminals PIDG R 22-16COMM
      22-18MIL 1/2 (http://www.te.com/usa-en/product-328975.html) for the job -
      with a view to removing the Plastic Insulation prior to installing - but:
      - wonder if the above terminals may be too thin compared to the following
      thicker, plain-copper ring terminals: (
      https://www.parts4aircraft.com/cht-probes-ring-type-c2x9382903) - leading
      to premature failure or exhaust gas blow-by?
      - wonder if the tin plate on PIDG terminals is not ideal, due to max
      working temp of tinplate being 150=C2=BAC typically. Will it burn/evaporate
       off
      and all be ok, or should I anneal the terminals to cherry red prior
      fitting, much as a spark plug copper gasket would be?
      
      Regarding CHT lead insulation: I initially bought Type K glassfibre
      insulated extension cable with stainless steel over-braiding (
      https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/thermocouple-extension-wire/2194595/) as it
      was cheaper than the PTFE or PFA insulated variety, but found the glass
      fibres to be strongly bonded to one another and therefore very fiddly to
      strip.
      - As such, any recommendations for/against using PTFE or PFA insulation
      types for making CHT probes in future would be appreciated, e.g. perhaps: (
      https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/thermocouple-extension-wire/6118012/).
      
      Many thanks,
      Hamish
      Ledbury, UK
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
<billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: 240 VAC Motor Question
Date: 
Sep 14, 2018
      
      > There are no pictures attached to your post.
      
      Hmmm...perhaps due to file size I should send them one at a time (sorry for
      the spam)>
      .
      Thanks,
      Bill Hunter
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
       On Behalf Of user9253
      Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 7:35 PM
      Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: 240 VAC Motor Question
      
      
      Bill,
      There are no pictures attached to your post.
      
      --------
      Joe Gores
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483169#483169
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
<billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: 240 VAC Motor Question
Date: 
Sep 14, 2018
      
      Here is the inside of the box
      
      
      .
      Thanks,
      Bill Hunter
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
       On Behalf Of user9253
      Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 7:35 PM
      Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: 240 VAC Motor Question
      
      
      Bill,
      There are no pictures attached to your post.
      
      --------
      Joe Gores
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483169#483169
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 14, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Thermocouple Wire Connections
      
      westach.com > products > accessories > under spark plug ring type
      thermocouples
      
      Aircraft Spruce carries many Westach products.
      
      On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 8:15 AM, Hamish Mead  wrote:
      
      > Hi group,
      >
      > My first post here after lurking for sometime, thank you :)
      >
      > Sebastien - perfect timing on this topic as I need to make up some new CH
      T
      > probes to fit a Jabiru 2200 engine. You said:
      > > I am wiring some of these CHT probes to a Dynon Skyview
      > Could you post a product link to the CHT probes/terminals please? (I only
      > get the list daily digest and guess you posted an image - I'll change my
      > subscription type in a moment).
      >
      > Also; I read Bob's article on DIY CHT probes, but still have a few
      > questions - hope the group don't mind overloading a thread:
      >
      > So far I ordered some AMP / TE 328975 12 mm ring terminals PIDG R
      > 22-16COMM 22-18MIL 1/2 (http://www.te.com/usa-en/product-328975.html) for
      > the job - with a view to removing the Plastic Insulation prior to
      > installing - but:
      > - wonder if the above terminals may be too thin compared to the following
      > thicker, plain-copper ring terminals: (https://www.parts4aircraft.
      > com/cht-probes-ring-type-c2x9382903) - leading to premature failure or
      > exhaust gas blow-by?
      > - wonder if the tin plate on PIDG terminals is not ideal, due to max
      > working temp of tinplate being 150=C2=BAC typically. Will it burn/evapora
      te off
      > and all be ok, or should I anneal the terminals to cherry red prior
      > fitting, much as a spark plug copper gasket would be?
      >
      > Regarding CHT lead insulation: I initially bought Type K glassfibre
      > insulated extension cable with stainless steel over-braiding (
      > https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/thermocouple-extension-wire/2194595/) as
      > it was cheaper than the PTFE or PFA insulated variety, but found the glas
      s
      > fibres to be strongly bonded to one another and therefore very fiddly to
      > strip.
      > - As such, any recommendations for/against using PTFE or PFA insulation
      > types for making CHT probes in future would be appreciated, e.g. perhaps:
       (
      > https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/thermocouple-extension-wire/6118012/).
      >
      > Many thanks,
      > Hamish
      > Ledbury, UK
      >
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
<billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: 240 VAC Motor Question
Date: 
Sep 14, 2018
      
      Here is a closer view of the relay itself.
      
      Again...THANKS for your help on this (as always)!!!
      
      
      .
      Thanks,
      Bill Hunter
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
       On Behalf Of user9253
      Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 7:35 PM
      Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: 240 VAC Motor Question
      
      
      Bill,
      There are no pictures attached to your post.
      
      --------
      Joe Gores
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483169#483169
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: 240 VAC Motor Question
From: 
Harley Dixon <harley(at)AgelessWings.com>
Date: 
Sep 14, 2018
      
      Just an FYI Bill, I did have the pictures along with your first 
      message...using Thunderbird if that makes any difference.
      
      Harley
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      
      On 9/14/2018 11:42 AM, billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com wrote:
      > Here is the inside of the box
      >
      >
      > .
      > Thanks,
      > Bill Hunter
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
      >  On Behalf Of user9253
      > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 7:35 PM
      > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
      > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: 240 VAC Motor Question
      >
      >
      > Bill,
      > There are no pictures attached to your post.
      >
      > --------
      > Joe Gores
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483169#483169
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Thermocouple Wire Connections
From: 
Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: 
Sep 14, 2018
      
      
      Werner,
      
      Yes, the 912 has the same arrangement of CHT sensors.
      
      Blue skies & tailwinds,
      Bob Borger
      Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (130 hrs).
      Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP, Hercules Prop.
      3705 Lynchburg Dr.
      Corinth, TX  76208-5331
      Cel: 817-992-1117
      rlborger(at)mac.com
      
      On Sep 14, 2018, at 3:50 AM, Werner Schneider  wrote:
      
      
      Thanks Bob for setting it right it's a while since I've worked on a Rotax :) Do
      you know if the 912 has that as well meanwhile?
      
      Cheers Werner
      
      On 14.09.2018 02:37, Robert Borger wrote:
      > Werner,
      > 
      > My Rotax 914 has Rotax provided boss mounted thermal sensors on cylinders 1 and
      4.  My GRT EIS 4000 can read their input quite well.  I put small ring thermal
      sensors provided by GRT onto the cylinder head of cylinders 2 and 3 by screwing
      them onto bosses provided.  They seem to read well enough as all 4 are very
      close in temperature readout.
      > 
      > Blue skies & tailwinds,
      > Bob Borger
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 14, 2018
From: 
Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: 
Re: 240 VAC Motor Question
      
      Both pictures were attached to the original post that I received.
      
      Bob McC
      
      > 
      >     ---------- Original Message ----------
      >     From: billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com
      >     Date: September 14, 2018 at 11:42 AM
      > 
      > 
      >     > There are no pictures attached to your post.
      > 
      >     Hmmm...perhaps due to file size I should send them one at a time (sorry
      > for
      >     the spam)>
      >     .
      >     Thanks,
      >     Bill Hunter
      > 
      >     -----Original Message-----
      >     From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
      >      On Behalf Of user9253
      >     Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 7:35 PM
      >     To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
      >     Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: 240 VAC Motor Question
      > 
      > 
      >     Bill,
      >     There are no pictures attached to your post.
      > 
      >     --------
      >     Joe Gores
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      >     Read this topic online here:
      > 
      >     http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483169#483169
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: 240 VAC Motor Question
From: 
Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 14, 2018
      
      On 9/14/2018 10:48 AM, Harley Dixon wrote:
      > Just an FYI Bill, I did have the pictures along with your first 
      > message...using Thunderbird if that makes any difference.
      >
      > Harley
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      Same here, on both counts.
      
      
      ---
      This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
      https://www.avast.com/antivirus
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
A R Goldman <argoldman(at)aol.com>
Date: 
Sep 14, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Thermocouple Wire Connections
      
      Speaking of thermocouples=94-
      
      Can one thermocouple be connected to two readout devices???
      
      Thanks
      
      Rich
      
      Sent from my iPhone
      
      > On Sep 13, 2018, at 9:59 AM, FLYaDIVE  wrote:
      > 
      > Sebastien:
      > 
      > Not at all!  You just have to figure out the polarity.  Voltage output sho
      uld be something like 23 microvolts per Deg F.
      > BUT!  Why do you want to use an Under The Spark Plug sensor?  In general:
      > 1 - They read High.
      > 2 - They are very slow in reacting.
      > 3 - They break easy.
      > 
      > Your choice of wire connector is a good one.  I have done dozens & dozens o
      f connections using that connector.  WAY easier to use them than the nut & b
      olt system from JPI.
      > 
      > Barry
      > 
      >> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:54 AM Sebastien  wrote:
      >> I am wiring some of these CHT probes to a Dynon Skyview
      >> 
      >> <712-5WK.jpg>
      >> I'm hoping to connect them with these
      >> 
      >> https://buy-ei.com/portfolio/olc-1/
      >> 
      >> as recommended by Dynon but as you can see the probes come with bullet co
      nnectors. I don't have any female connectors for the bullets. Will it mess u
      p the readings to cut the bullet connectors off, strip the wire, and connect
       them to the Dynon harness using the OLC-1s?
      >> 
      >> Thank you,
      >> 
      >> Sebastien
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: 240 VAC Motor Question
From: 
"donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: 
Sep 16, 2018
      
      
      I'm reading these on the website and there are no pictures.
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483207#483207
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Auto Response: AeroElectric-List Digest: 1 Msgs
      - 08/08/18
From: 
"stephen092" <jonathan.james0007(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 16, 2018
      
      
      This is an example of blog; I've genuinely wanted to see this blog. An astonishing article made by you it is extremely useful with ukbestessays (https://www.ukbestessay.info/) and warning for me. I generally search for this kind of article, Thank you for sharing this awesome data.
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483208#483208
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 17, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: Rotax Charging System
      
      At 11:56 PM 9/13/2018, you wrote:
      >
      >I don't believe I've ever seen a definitive answer to the question 
      >of what the exact purpose of the 22,000 mfd capacitor is in the 912 
      >charging circuit.  Can anyone answer that question?  I apologize if 
      >the answer is buried somewhere in the archives of this forum, and I 
      >just haven't searched far enough to find it.
      
         These capacitors have been included as part
         of many PM alternator systems with rectifier/regulators
         for a long time. Never got to talk with an original
         designer but the general consensus amongst those who
         have offered opinions is that it 'reduces noise' and/or
         'aids alternator-only operations'.
      
         Limited testing I've conducted on smaller systems
         (10 amp) showed no benefit with respect to noise
         levels on the bus . . . DC busses in vehicles are
         generally very noisy anyhow and everyone worth his
         salt as an appliance designer will know how to
         'live with it'.
      
         Here's a family of plots I took on an SD8 alterantor
         on B&C's drive stand about 15 years ago:
      
      https://tinyurl.com/cz7ekrf
      
         Page 1 is a picture of a fully loaded SD8 with
         capacitor installed.  Measured noise in the low
         frequency spectrum was about 250 millivolts peak
         to peak, 77 mV RMS.
      
         Page 2 shows what happens when the capacitor is
         removed . . .  760 mV pk-pk and 72 mV RMS.
      
         In other words, no significant change. Alternator
         noise on the bus in an airplane with a wound field
         is MUCH higher and broader spectrum . . . but still
         nothing that your electro-whizzies should care about.
      
         I fiddled with some no battery ops too on pages 7, 8 and
         9 . . . but didn't see how it performed with no capacitor.
         I'm thinking that planning for no battery ops is a
         capitulation to poor battery maintenance practices
         and/or errors of conducting FMEA in deciding architecture.
      
         Short answer is I don't think the capacitor adds
         any useful benefit. If anyone runs across some testing
         data that contradicts these findings, I'd be delighted
         to know about it.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Battery Minder connector
From: 
"donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
Date: 
Sep 17, 2018
      
      
      I have a Battery Minder with the connector provided.  I would like to change to
      something I can mount to the airframe that will allow connecting with one hand.
      
      
      Anyone have any suggestions?
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483241#483241
      
      
      Attachments: 
      
      http://forums.matronics.com//files/rta_2415_2_227.jpg
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
skywagon(at)charter.net
Subject: 
Re: About Battery Maintainers. . . .
Date: 
Sep 17, 2018
      
      =0A=0ASubject: Re: AeroElectric-List: About Battery Maintainers. . . .
      =0A=0A The question about changing the charging clamps/jacks. . . .=0A 
           That style of maintainer delivers very low current to do the=0Ajob.
         You could remove the provided "clamp" connectors and attach=0Asome th
      ing as simple as the old style RCA jack. Really anything that=0Ayou have
       handy. If the unit supplied large currents, you would have to=0Abe more
       selective.   =0A   Keep in mind a couple of things with most styles of
       maintainers.  =0A1. They usually need to connected to the battery befor
      e connecting to=0A120vac.   2. If the unit is connected to the battery,
       but, the 120 vac=0Ais disconnected or lost do to a power line failure,
       the battery will=0Aslowly discharge back thru the circuitry of the main
      tainer. This can=0Aalso happen when the unit is connected to 120 vac tha
      t is fed by a GFI=0Acontrolled ac line. If the GFI is tripped/opens that
       line by some=0Aincident, and you are not there to disconnect the mainta
      iner, the=0Abattery will slowly be discharged.   Maybe some of the units
       have a=0Areversed diode in the charge line now, but, the charging/float
       circuit=0Awould have to be adjusted to compensate for diodes forward lo
      ss.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Rotax Charging System
From: 
Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 17, 2018
      
      On 9/17/2018 1:39 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
      > At 11:56 PM 9/13/2018, you wrote:
      >>
      >> I don't believe I've ever seen a definitive answer to the question of 
      >> what the exact purpose of the 22,000 mfd capacitor is in the 912 
      >> charging circuit. Can anyone answer that question? I apologize if 
      >> the answer is buried somewhere in the archives of this forum, and I 
      >> just haven't searched far enough to find it.
      >
      >  These capacitors have been included as part
      >  of many PM alternator systems with rectifier/regulators
      >  for a long time. Never got to talk with an original
      >  designer but the general consensus amongst those who
      >  have offered opinions is that it 'reduces noise' and/or
      >  'aids alternator-only operations'.
      >
      >  Limited testing I've conducted on smaller systems
      >  (10 amp) showed no benefit with respect to noise
      >  levels on the bus . . . DC busses in vehicles are
      >  generally very noisy anyhow and everyone worth his
      >  salt as an appliance designer will know how to
      >  'live with it'.
      >
      >  Here's a family of plots I took on an SD8 alterantor
      >  on B&C's drive stand about 15 years ago:
      >
      > https://tinyurl.com/cz7ekrf 
      >
      >  Page 1 is a picture of a fully loaded SD8 with
      >  capacitor installed. Measured noise in the low
      >  frequency spectrum was about 250 millivolts peak
      >  to peak, 77 mV RMS.
      >
      >  Page 2 shows what happens when the capacitor is
      >  removed . . . 760 mV pk-pk and 72 mV RMS.
      >
      >  In other words, no significant change. Alternator
      >  noise on the bus in an airplane with a wound field
      >  is MUCH higher and broader spectrum . . . but still
      >  nothing that your electro-whizzies should care about.
      >
      >  I fiddled with some no battery ops too on pages 7, 8 and
      >  9 . . . but didn't see how it performed with no capacitor.
      >  I'm thinking that planning for no battery ops is a
      >  capitulation to poor battery maintenance practices
      >  and/or errors of conducting FMEA in deciding architecture.
      >
      >  Short answer is I don't think the capacitor adds
      >  any useful benefit. If anyone runs across some testing
      >  data that contradicts these findings, I'd be delighted
      >  to know about it.
      >
      >
      >  Bob . . .
      >
      I wonder if that capacitor is an artifact from back when PM alternators 
      were operated in vehicles that were designed with no battery. Not unlike 
      the avionics master as a holdover from the prehistoric germanium 
      semiconductor days.
      
      Charlie
      
      
      ---
      This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
      https://www.avast.com/antivirus
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 17, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: IVO current limiter project
      
      At 09:44 AM 9/14/2018, you wrote:
      >
      >The builder who used this project on his plane posted that it worked 
      >very well.
      >Read Dennis' post near the bottom of this thread:
      >http://www.matronics.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=470854&sid=213ec347d8eaec8f1c56ef0d4cf417c8 
      >
      >
      >I have purchased PCB boards from elecrow.com at low prices compared 
      >to local PCB houses.  The disadvantage is that it takes up a month 
      >to get the boards.
      >
      >A low cost option is to use a magnetic reed switch instead of the 
      >circuit board.  Wrap a reed switch with several turns of wire.  Put 
      >that wire in series with the motor.  When the motor current is high, 
      >the reed switch will close and turn on an indicator light.
      >
      >--------
      >Joe Gores
      
      
         I'm a bit confused about the status of this project.
         I seem to recall having laid out boards, stuffing
         a prototype and handing the proof-of-concept board
         off to someone to be programmed.
      
      Emacs!
      
      
      Emacs!
      
      
         I dug around here looking for the project-bin but could not
         immediately put my hands on it.
      
         Did this fall down a crack somewhere . . . and is the crack
         in my shop?
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: About Battery Maintainers. . . .
From: 
C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 17, 2018
      
      
      I used to not pay much attention to the connection sequence but it seems 
      that connecting some of these small chargers to the battery before 
      plugging in to the mains is actually good advice. I have several 1.5 
      amp Schumacker 1562 charger maintainers of varying vintages that can 
      put out surprisingly high voltage 120 hz pulses when not connected to a 
      battery. Discovered that while investigating why a very cheap digital 
      ammeter supposedly good for 30 volts got fried. Again no issue at all if 
      the battery is connected before plugging in to the mains.
      
      The units I have are all controlled by a microprocessor but they are all 
      over the map in terms of how much 14.5 volt charging they will do before 
      switching to the 13.4 volt nominal maintaining mode and none of them 
      have any internal adjustments to tweak.
      
      Ken
      
      
      On 17/09/2018 5:32 PM, skywagon(at)charter.net wrote:
      >
      >
      > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: About Battery Maintainers. . . .
      >
      > The question about changing the charging clamps/jacks. . . .
      >
      >     That style of maintainer delivers very low current to do the job.
      >     You could remove the provided "clamp" connectors and attach some
      >     thing as simple as the old style RCA jack. Really anything that
      >     you have handy. If the unit supplied large currents, you would
      >     have to be more selective.
      >
      >     Keep in mind a couple of things withmost styles of maintainers.
      >     1. They usually need to connected to the battery before connecting
      >     to 120vac.
      >     2.If the unit is connected to the battery, but, the 120 vac is
      >     disconnected or lost do to a power line failure, the battery will
      >     slowly discharge back thru the circuitry of the maintainer. This
      >     can alsohappen when the unit is connected to 120 vac that is fed
      >     by a GFI controlled ac line. If the GFI is tripped/opens that
      >     line by some incident, and you are not there to disconnect the
      >     maintainer, the battery will slowly be discharged.
      >     Maybe some of the units have a reversed diode in the charge line
      >     now, but, the charging/float circuit would have to be adjusted to
      >     compensate for diodes forward loss.
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Todd Bartrim <bartrim(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 17, 2018
Subject: 
Re: IVO current limiter project
      
      Hi Bob;
        I'm hoping that the code was complete and boards were proven to be
      correct as I've put in an order for a board (minimum 3 and it appears that
      each board had 2 designed into it, so 6 boards) and ordered enough
      components from Digi-Key to populate all 6.
      I've also ordered a PICkit3 programmer to program the PIC.
        First I ordered the PICkit1 from eBay as the notes indicated that was
      used as the programmer then I immediately realized that it was an obsolete
      programmer from the 90's but seller wouldn't cancel the order, so I still
      ordered the new PICkit3 and will use the other one as a paperweight to
      remind me why Amazon is better than eBay.
        Anyways, I expect boards, components and programmer to be here within a
      week and we'll see how it all comes together.
      I'd be happy to split up the rest of the boards and components (programmed
      with the code of coarse) for anyone who wants one.
      
      Todd
      C-FSTB
      RV9
      
      On Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 15:16 Robert L. Nuckolls, III, <
      nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
      
      > At 09:44 AM 9/14/2018, you wrote:
      >
      >
      > The builder who used this project on his plane posted that it worked very
      > well.
      > Read Dennis' post near the bottom of this thread:
      >
      > http://www.matronics.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=470854&sid=213ec347d8eaec8f1c56ef0d4cf417c8
      >
      > I have purchased PCB boards from elecrow.com at low prices compared to
      > local PCB houses.  The disadvantage is that it takes up a month to get the
      > boards.
      >
      > A low cost option is to use a magnetic reed switch instead of the circuit
      > board.  Wrap a reed switch with several turns of wire.  Put that wire in
      > series with the motor.  When the motor current is high, the reed switch
      > will close and turn on an indicator light.
      >
      > --------
      > Joe Gores
      >
      >
      >   I'm a bit confused about the status of this project.
      >   I seem to recall having laid out boards, stuffing
      >   a prototype and handing the proof-of-concept board
      >   off to someone to be programmed.
      >
      > [image: Emacs!]
      >
      >
      > [image: Emacs!]
      >
      >   I dug around here looking for the project-bin but could not
      >   immediately put my hands on it.
      >
      >   Did this fall down a crack somewhere . . . and is the crack
      >   in my shop?
      >
      >
      >   Bob . . .
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 17, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: IVO current limiter project
      
      At 06:43 PM 9/17/2018, you wrote:
      >Hi Bob;
      >=C2  I'm hoping that the code was complete and 
      >boards were proven to be correct as I've put in 
      >an order for a board (minimum 3 and it appears 
      >that each board had 2 designed into it, so 6 
      >boards) and ordered enough components from Digi-Key to populate all 6.=C2
      >I've also ordered a PICkit3 programmer to program the PIC.
      >=C2  First I ordered the PICkit1 from eBay as the 
      >notes indicated that was used as the programmer 
      >then I immediately realized that it was an 
      >obsolete programmer from the 90's but seller 
      >wouldn't cancel the order, so I still ordered 
      >the new PICkit3 and will use the other one as a 
      >paperweight to remind me why Amazon is better than eBay.
      >=C2  Anyways, I expect boards, components and 
      >programmer to be here within a week and we'll see how it all comes
       together.
      >I'd be happy to split up the rest of the boards 
      >and components (programmed with the code of coarse) for anyone who wants
       one.
      
         Was this an extension of the approach
         I published or a parallel effort?
         I was thinking I'd handed off the schematic,
         BOM and a quantity of boards off for
         further development but that was too
         many projects ago and I've lost track
         of the details.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 17, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: Rotax Charging System
      
      
      >I wonder if that capacitor is an artifact from back when PM 
      >alternators were operated in vehicles that were designed with no 
      >battery. Not unlike the avionics master as a holdover from the 
      >prehistoric germanium semiconductor days.
      >
      >Charlie
      
         An excellent hypothesis . . . but it seems
         it equally likely that somebody looked at that
         full wave rectifier downstream of an AC
         source and thought, "Gee, every circuit like
         that in the past has had a capacitor across
         the output . . . shucks . . . why not?"
      
         It's deceptively easy to buy into conventional
         wisdom. I was firmly in the camp followers for
         'the battery is your ship's best power filter.' I
         used to preach the doctrine myself. Then one
         day, I had to write a test report some sample
         batteries and the requester asked me to see if
         the samples were any 'better filters' than
         the products we were buying.
      
         No big deal . . . but the data gathered was
         a big deal. Totally blew the old saw into
         itty-bitty pieces. Intuitively, we all KNEW
         that batteries didn't take on serious charge
         below 13.5 nor would the deliver serious
         energy above 12.5. so what happens in that
         fuzzy area . . . very little.
      
         I was pretty stunned with that realization . . .
         and embarrassed that a MIL-STD-704  knowledge-nugget
         I'd worked with for decades was telling me the same
         thing . . .
      
      Emacs!
      
      
         Noise levels to be EXPECTED in a normally operating
         28VDC system over the range of 1000 to 5000 Hz were
         1.0VRMS or 2.8V pk-pk . . . with fall-offs at
         each end.  In other words, as a normal state of
         affairs, pk-pk noise can be as much as 10% of
         system voltages.
      
      
         We know that batteries stand off LARGE perturbations
         above 13.5 and below 12.5 but that would hardly
         qualify as a 'filtering' function.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 17, 2018
From: 
ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net
Subject: 
Re: Battery Minder connector
      
      
      Hi Don;
      I have the same connector. I cut an oval hole in the fuselage just ahead of the
      firewall, but just behind the cowling. I let the connector protrude outside slightly.
      I held it in place with an aluminum bracket that squeezes the connector
      body. The bracket is J-shaped with two holes. One hole is 5/32" for a rivet.
      The other is 3/16" for a #10-32 bolt that goes through two thicknesses of aluminum
      at the U-shaped end. Both fasteners go through the firewall. The bolt squeezes
      the connector and holds it firmly in place.
      Cheers!   Stu.
      
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
      Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 1:10:06 PM
      Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery Minder connector
      
      
      I have a Battery Minder with the connector provided.  I would like to change to
      something I can mount to the airframe that will allow connecting with one hand.
      
      
      Anyone have any suggestions?
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483241#483241
      
      
      Attachments: 
      
      http://forums.matronics.com//files/rta_2415_2_227.jpg
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
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From: 
"johnmathew" <johnmathew1245(at)yahoo.com>
Date: 
Sep 17, 2018
      
      
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      to meet the standards and decrease the dangers
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483256#483256
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Todd Bartrim <bartrim(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 17, 2018
Subject: 
Re: IVO current limiter project
      
      Hi Bob;
        This is the project that was ongoing for several years on this list but
      abruptly ended in July 2017. I was following the discussion with interest,
      but other responsibilities at the time left me unable to get involved.
      As I recently returned to flight again, I quickly remembered why I thought
      this was a much needed improvement for the IVO prop. So I read through the
      archives and studied the material you have posted at
      http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9023/
      I did post a message here a few days back inquiring about the status of the
      project, before I ordered the parts to build one (or 6), so I'm now
      somewhat financially committed to at least trying to stand on your
      shoulders and complete this project. The info posted at the link on your
      site seems to be complete and the last posting about it didn't declare it
      to be successfully finished but that Beta-testing was about to begin, then
      nothing further.
      
      So I guess I'm going to be a beta-tester?
      
      Todd
      C-FSTB
      
      Todd Bartrim
      
      On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 5:53 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
      nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
      
      > At 06:43 PM 9/17/2018, you wrote:
      >
      > Hi Bob;
      > =C3=82  I'm hoping that the code was complete and boards were proven to b
      e
      > correct as I've put in an order for a board (minimum 3 and it appears tha
      t
      > each board had 2 designed into it, so 6 boards) and ordered enough
      > components from Digi-Key to populate all 6.=C3=82
      > I've also ordered a PICkit3 programmer to program the PIC.
      > =C3=82  First I ordered the PICkit1 from eBay as the notes indicated that
       was
      > used as the programmer then I immediately realized that it was an obsolet
      e
      > programmer from the 90's but seller wouldn't cancel the order, so I still
      > ordered the new PICkit3 and will use the other one as a paperweight to
      > remind me why Amazon is better than eBay.
      > =C3=82  Anyways, I expect boards, components and programmer to be here wi
      thin a
      > week and we'll see how it all comes together.
      > I'd be happy to split up the rest of the boards and components (programme
      d
      > with the code of coarse) for anyone who wants one.
      >
      >
      >   Was this an extension of the approach
      >   I published or a parallel effort?
      >   I was thinking I'd handed off the schematic,
      >   BOM and a quantity of boards off for
      >   further development but that was too
      >   many projects ago and I've lost track
      >   of the details.
      >
      >
      >   Bob . . .
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 18, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: IVO current limiter project
      
      At 09:29 PM 9/17/2018, you wrote:
      >The last 2 posts I saw on this were these 2:
      >
      >Robert L. Nuckolls, III 
      >Fri 7/21/2017, 12:23 PM
      >Got the board stuffed.
      >
      >http://tinyurl.com/ycemckye
      >
      >I need to get my pic programmer up and running
      >for a couple other programs. I'll pop a 9023 chip
      >and see how critter works.
      >
      >   Bob . . .
      >
      >AND
      >
      >Paul A. Fisher 
      >Wed 10/4/2017, 11:53 AM
      >Bob and all,
      >Did we ever finish this project?  The message attached below was the 
      >last one I heard about it.  I don't know if that means it worked, 
      >that it didn't work and we gave up, or everyone just lost interest.
      >I don't have an IVO prop, so I don't need the limiter.  I just 
      >wondered if the software that I contributed needs any additional refinement.
      >Paul A. Fisher
      >Q-200, N17PF
      >RV-7A, N18PF
      >
      >If there was a limiter produced I didn't see it.
      >
      >Deems
      
         Okay guys . . . looks like I dropped the ball on this
         one. I'll hide behind the 'too many projects' phenomenon.
         Got another grand-kid living with us for a year to
         try alternatives to Wichita schools . . . etc. But
         that's not an excuse. I'll dig around and get that
         package together.
      
         I know Paul had sent me some POC software and I
         don't recall having loaded it into a chip. We'll
         get that pot back on a front burner today.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 18, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: Rotax Charging System
      
      At 10:24 PM 9/17/2018, you wrote:
      >>I wonder if that capacitor is an artifact from back when PM 
      >>alternators were operated in vehicles that were designed with no 
      >>battery. Not unlike the avionics master as a holdover from the 
      >>prehistoric germanium semiconductor days.
      >>
      >>Charlie
      >
      >   An excellent hypothesis . . . but it seems
      >   it equally likely that somebody looked at that
      >   full wave rectifier downstream of an AC
      >   source and thought, "Gee, every circuit like
      >   that in the past has had a capacitor across
      >   the output . . . shucks . . . why not?"
      
         Let's noodle some of the math that helps
         us figure out just how effective a capacitor
         might be for 'filtering' a PM alternator system:
      
         A fundamental quality of capacitors is described
         by this formula:
      
         Volts/Second = Amps/Farad
      
         meaning that if you apply 1 amp of constant
         current to a 1 Farad capacitor, you'll see
         voltage across the capacitor rise at a rate
         of 1 Volt per Second.
      
         How rapidly will the voltage change
         across at 22,000uF capacitor in a
         PM alternator system with 10A load
         assuming the positive excursion has just
         charged the capacitor to the expected peak
         voltage?
      
         V/S = 10/0.022 = 454 Volts/Second or let's
         say about 500 mVolts/mSecond.
      
         Adding a 500 mV/mS plot to the no-capacitor
         plot of SD8 performance we see
      
      Emacs!
      
      
         By inspection we can deduce that the addition of
         22KuF to the output would have no appreciable effect
         on the voltage plot shown.  If we put a 47KuF cap
         on it (less than 1/2 the slope) we might see a reduction
         in pk-pk excursion to something on the order of 200mV
         . . . but why bother? We know that appliances qualified to run
         in aircraft EXPECT to see noises equal to or perhaps
         greater than what's depicted above with no capacitor.
      
         I might also add that automotive electrical systems
         are completely devoid of electrical system noise
         filters that address the spectrum of alternator
         ripple and switching.
      
         So if there is a reason based on physics for adding
         capacitors to the PM alternators, it's not intuitively
         clear.
      
      
         Bob . . .  
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
Date: 
Sep 18, 2018
Subject: 
Did you install a "battery bus"?
      
      Hi,
      
      I'm struggling to find anything that really needs to be connected to an
      always-hot battery bus.
      
      I have an io360 with pmags which will power themselves in case of issue
      with the normal power bus, my mission is vfr day, GRT EFIS, Trig Radio and
      transponder, some lights (that I don't really need), and that's about it.
      
      I could see some value in an always hot cigar lighter-type connection to
      charge a phone while on the ground, or to send some electrons to the
      battery, but not much else.
      
      Am I missing something or are there others that don't have a battery bus?
      
      Mickey Coggins
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Subject: 
Did you install a "battery bus"?
Date: 
Sep 18, 2018
      
      Clock is about the only thing 
      
      
      From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com 
       On Behalf Of Mickey 
      Coggins
      Sent: 18 September 2018 13:36
      Subject: AeroElectric-List: Did you install a "battery bus"?
      
      
      Hi,
      
      
      I'm struggling to find anything that really needs to be connected to an 
      always-hot battery bus.
      
      
      I have an io360 with pmags which will power themselves in case of issue 
      with the normal power bus, my mission is vfr day, GRT EFIS, Trig Radio 
      and transponder, some lights (that I don't really need), and that's 
      about it.
      
      
      I could see some value in an always hot cigar lighter-type connection to 
      charge a phone while on the ground, or to send some electrons to the 
      battery, but not much else.
      
      
      Am I missing something or are there others that don't have a battery 
      bus?
      
      
      Mickey Coggins
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Did you install a "battery bus"?
From: 
Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>
Date: 
Sep 18, 2018
      
      
      Some GPS units have a keep-alive circuit requiring connection to a battery buss.
      Ensures that the GPS is always ready to go without the usual boot up time.
      
      On Sep 18, 2018, at 7:35 AM, Mickey Coggins  wrote:
      
      Hi,
      
      I'm struggling to find anything that really needs to be connected to an always-hot
      battery bus.
      
      I have an io360 with pmags which will power themselves in case of issue with the
      normal power bus, my mission is vfr day, GRT EFIS, Trig Radio and transponder,
      some lights (that I don't really need), and that's about it.
      
      I could see some value in an always hot cigar lighter-type connection to charge
      a phone while on the ground, or to send some electrons to the battery, but not
      much else.
      
      Am I missing something or are there others that don't have a battery bus?
      
      Mickey Coggins
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 18, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Did you install a "battery bus"?
      
      I have an always hot plug that I can use to either charge the battery or
      power an accessory (12v air pump, phone charger). I use automotive
      connector plugs rather than cigarette lighter plugs but basically one
      cigarette lighter plug wired directly to the battery can be very handy but
      I can't figure out a use for anything more.
      
      On Sep 18, 2018 16:01, "Mickey Coggins"  wrote:
      
      Hi,
      
      I'm struggling to find anything that really needs to be connected to an
      always-hot battery bus.
      
      I have an io360 with pmags which will power themselves in case of issue
      with the normal power bus, my mission is vfr day, GRT EFIS, Trig Radio and
      transponder, some lights (that I don't really need), and that's about it.
      
      I could see some value in an always hot cigar lighter-type connection to
      charge a phone while on the ground, or to send some electrons to the
      battery, but not much else.
      
      Am I missing something or are there others that don't have a battery bus?
      
      Mickey Coggins
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Battery Minder connector
From: 
"ronaldcox" <flyboyron(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 18, 2018
      
      
      You might try something like one of these.
      
      https://www.ebay.com/p/Authentic-Anderson-Sb50-Connector-Kit-Gray-8-AWG-2-Pack-2-Connectors/1856190812?iid=221669705387&chn=ps
      
      Designed for golf carts, so would certainly handle the current.
      
      You could hard-mount one end flush in the fuselage somewhere, and have a robust
      one-hand connection.
      
      Ron
      
      --------
      Ron Cox
      Glasair Super II F/T
      Under Construction at C77 - Still just about to fly!
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483275#483275
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: 
Sep 18, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Did you install a "battery bus"?
      
      Mike,
      
      I have a battery bus but it only powers two things: the keep-alive line for
      my MGL EFIS and an LED ceiling light (which has its own on/off switch).
      
      If your EFIS doesn't require any keep-alive then you truly might not need a
      battery bus.
      
      And remember... nothing is forever. If you start without one and change
      your mind, it's OK. You can add a battery bus.
      
      Cheers,
          -- Art Z.
      
      On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 5:13 PM Mickey Coggins 
      wrote:
      
      > Hi,
      >
      > I'm struggling to find anything that really needs to be connected to an
      > always-hot battery bus.
      >
      > I have an io360 with pmags which will power themselves in case of issue
      > with the normal power bus, my mission is vfr day, GRT EFIS, Trig Radio and
      > transponder, some lights (that I don't really need), and that's about it.
      >
      > I could see some value in an always hot cigar lighter-type connection to
      > charge a phone while on the ground, or to send some electrons to the
      > battery, but not much else.
      >
      > Am I missing something or are there others that don't have a battery bus?
      >
      
      
      -- 
      https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
      
      *"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."*
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Did you install a "battery bus"?
From: 
JOHN TIPTON <john(at)tiptonuk.eu>
Date: 
Sep 19, 2018
      
      
      No battery bus ---
      
      Sent from my iPad
      
           ----x--O--x----
      
      > On 18 Sep 2018, at 1:35 pm, Mickey Coggins  wrote:
      > 
      > Hi,
      > 
      > I'm struggling to find anything that really needs to be connected to an always-hot
      battery bus.
      > 
      > I have an io360 with pmags which will power themselves in case of issue with
      the normal power bus, my mission is vfr day, GRT EFIS, Trig Radio and transponder,
      some lights (that I don't really need), and that's about it.
      > 
      > I could see some value in an always hot cigar lighter-type connection to charge
      a phone while on the ground, or to send some electrons to the battery, but
      not much else.
      > 
      > Am I missing something or are there others that don't have a battery bus?
      > 
      > Mickey Coggins
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Did you install a "battery bus"?
From: 
Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net>
Date: 
Sep 19, 2018
      
      
      Hi Mickey,
      
      getting close :), I have some items on the Battery Bus but my design is 
      already 15 years flying (based on Z11) :)
      
      I have on the battery bus:
      
        -the connection to the Essential bus (alternate feed) (could be 
      direct on the battery)
        -a connection to my handheld com
        - a connection to my handheld GPS
        - a connection to the Hoobs
      
      Cheers Werner
      
      On 18.09.2018 14:35, Mickey Coggins wrote:
      > Hi,
      >
      > I'm struggling to find anything that really needs to be connected to 
      > an always-hot battery bus.
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 19, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Rotax Charging System
      
      Bob et al, I've had three instances where I've added a capacitor to a
      charging system.
      The first time was when a friend asked me to rewire the Harley Sportster he
      was resurrecting. It had a magneto for ignition, a generator for power and
      was kick start only. He didn't want a battery added. At that time CCI
      (Custom Chrome Inc, or as I called it ChiCom Importers) had a kit with a
      capacitor, a spring mount and a couple of connectors. It simply provided a
      load for the generator. I remember the lights had a pronounced flikker at
      idle rpm.
      The second was with the Rotax two stroke installation manual, page 18-3
      where there is a wiring diagram for installing the 866 080 rectifier
      without a battery . Above the diagram is the note; "Attention, To avoid
      excessive voltage in conjunction with the rectifier regulator 866080 a
      constant minimum ballast load of 1 amp is required" On the next page there
      is a diagram for installing that same rectifier with a battery and there is
      no capacitor.
      Third, was installing a Rotax 912. The Installation manual, section
      24-00-00 page 7 says a capacitor of 22,000 uF at 25V is required to protect
      the regulator and flatten voltage, along with the warning that if the
      battery or the bus is disconnected from the system with the engine running
      the capacitor will safely dissipate the charge from the generator (Rotax
      term) and "otherwise the regulator will be damaged".
      Whether it's an old pilot's tale or not I don't know, but the consistent
      theme is that the capacitor is there to dissipate a charge and protect the
      rectifier.
      
      Rick Girard
      
      On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 8:43 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
      nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
      
      > At 10:24 PM 9/17/2018, you wrote:
      >
      > I wonder if that capacitor is an artifact from back when PM alternators
      > were operated in vehicles that were designed with no battery. Not unlike
      > the avionics master as a holdover from the prehistoric germanium
      > semiconductor days.
      >
      > Charlie
      >
      >
      >   An excellent hypothesis . . . but it seems
      >   it equally likely that somebody looked at that
      >   full wave rectifier downstream of an AC
      >   source and thought, "Gee, every circuit like
      >   that in the past has had a capacitor across
      >   the output . . . shucks . . . why not?"
      >
      >
      >   Let's noodle some of the math that helps
      >   us figure out just how effective a capacitor
      >   might be for 'filtering' a PM alternator system:
      >
      >   A fundamental quality of capacitors is described
      >   by this formula:
      >
      >   Volts/Second = Amps/Farad
      >
      >   meaning that if you apply 1 amp of constant
      >   current to a 1 Farad capacitor, you'll see
      >   voltage across the capacitor rise at a rate
      >   of 1 Volt per Second.
      >
      >   How rapidly will the voltage change
      >   across at 22,000uF capacitor in a
      >   PM alternator system with 10A load
      >   assuming the positive excursion has just
      >   charged the capacitor to the expected peak
      >   voltage?
      >
      >   V/S = 10/0.022 = 454 Volts/Second or let's
      >   say about 500 mVolts/mSecond.
      >
      >   Adding a 500 mV/mS plot to the no-capacitor
      >   plot of SD8 performance we see
      >
      > [image: Emacs!]
      >
      >   By inspection we can deduce that the addition of
      >   22KuF to the output would have no appreciable effect
      >   on the voltage plot shown.  If we put a 47KuF cap
      >   on it (less than 1/2 the slope) we might see a reduction
      >   in pk-pk excursion to something on the order of 200mV
      >   . . . but why bother? We know that appliances qualified to run
      >   in aircraft EXPECT to see noises equal to or perhaps
      >   greater than what's depicted above with no capacitor.
      >
      >   I might also add that automotive electrical systems
      >   are completely devoid of electrical system noise
      >   filters that address the spectrum of alternator
      >   ripple and switching.
      >
      >   So if there is a reason based on physics for adding
      >   capacitors to the PM alternators, it's not intuitively
      >   clear.
      >
      >   Bob . . .
      >
      
      
      -- 
      =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D
         Groucho Marx
      <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 19, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: Did you install a "battery bus"?
      
      
      >
      >On 18.09.2018 14:35, Mickey Coggins wrote:
      >>Hi,
      >>
      >>I'm struggling to find anything that really needs to be connected 
      >>to an always-hot battery bus.
      
         Any airplane fitted with a battery bus has one or more
         devices that need to be functional with the DC PWR master
         switches OFF.  When I worked at Cessna in '64, single engine
         airplanes had two fuses mounted right at the battery box
         to power the electric clock and the oil-pressure actuated
         Hobbs hour meter. During the time I worked there, I can
         recall only one other system that was tied to a 'battery
         bus'. The T41 trainer (172 on steroids) had a third fuse
         that powered a solid state 121.5 transceiver mounted
         back behind the baggage compartment.
      
         The suggested loads for the battery bus in OBAM
         aircraft added features like dome lights, under-wing
         utility lighting, baggage compartment lights, utility
         jacks in cockpit for supporting a hand-held (backup
         comm and/or ATIS/Clearance Delivery), and/or a handy port for
         attaching battery maintainer to the ship's battery.
      
         When electrically dependent engines came along, it
         seemed prudent to run all engine support systems from
         the battery bus so that DC PWR masters could be
         shut off without compromising the engine.
      
         Every builder's needs will be different and new
         reasons to tap the battery directly may yet arise
         as the art and science of our craft evolves.
         But it's not difficult to imagine a project with
         no such features.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 20, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Thermocouple Wire Connections
      
      B. Borger:
      
      Thank you for the explanation.
      And sorry it took so long to respond.  Your email was sent to the Spam
      Folder.
      
      Barry
      
      On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 9:11 AM Robert Borger  wrote:
      
      >
      > Barry,
      >
      > The Rotax 9xx series of engines have liquid cooled heads and air cooled
      > cylinders.  The CHT sensors are placed on what should be the extremes of
      > CHT.  #1 should be the coolest CHT and #4 should be the warmest CHT.  #2 
      &
      > #3 should be somewhere in between.  Rotax also has a separate coolant
      > temperature sensor on the output of the manifold where the 4 returns from
      > the cylinder head combine.
      >
      > I don=99t think that CHT is used as a diagnostic in trouble shootin
      g.  It is
      > a warning of serious problems in the cylinder like detonation or
      > preignition.  If one sees a rapidly increasing, out of limit, CHT, it
      =99s
      > time to reduce the throttle and find a place to land.
      >
      > Blue skies & tailwinds,
      > Bob Borger
      > Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (130 hrs).
      > Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP, Hercules
      > Prop.
      > 3705 Lynchburg Dr.
      > Corinth, TX  76208-5331
      > Cel: 817-992-1117
      > rlborger(at)mac.com
      >
      > On Sep 14, 2018, at 7:32 AM, FLYaDIVE  wrote:
      >
      > Bob Borger & Werner,
      >
      > I=99m theorizing once again.  Since ROTAX has only two bosses for C
      HT
      > sensors and they are diagonally opposit each other and the engine is wate
      r
      > cooled the sensors must be averaging or at least =98mellowing
      =99 the readings.
      > It is more like a car which has only one temperature gauge.
      >
      > Question: Has anyone used a CHT reading to diagnose and pin point a
      > particular cylinder problem?  Of course since there are only two cylinder
      s
      > with probes the problem would have to be on those cylinders.  Unless...
      > There is such an increase in temperature that, it defines a problem.
      >
      > Barry
      ===========
      ===========
      ===========
      ===========
      ===========
      >
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics(at)rv8.ch>
Date: 
Sep 21, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Did you install a "battery bus"?
      
      Many thanks for all the feedback, gents.  I've decided to skip the battery
      bus.  I reserve the right to change my mind at the last minute!  :D
      
      Mickey Coggins
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 21, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: Did you install a "battery bus"?
      
      At 08:59 AM 9/21/2018, you wrote:
      >Many thanks for all the feedback, gents.=C2  I've 
      >decided to skip the battery bus.=C2  I reserve the 
      >right to change my mind at the last minute!
      
         You can change your mind years from now . . .
         no telling what new electro-whizzies worthy
         of always-hot power source might emerge.
         It's an OBAM aircraft . . . you can DO
         it completely free of any requirement for
         permission!
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Alternator/shunt question
From: 
"woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com>
Date: 
Sep 21, 2018
      
      
      Question.  If I run a 30amp backup alternator through the same shunt (Dynon) as
      the primary 60 amp alternator., mating at the shunt entry and sharing the single
      cable at the shunt exit (wired as a battery load meter) ... 
      
      When the primary is offline, would the amp draw shown for the backup alternator
      be reasonably correct or would it show artificially low?  Would its own distinct
      shunt be required give an accurate measurement of alternator output?  
      
      Thanks in advance.
      
      --------
      Myron Nelson
      Mesa, AZ
      Flew May 10 2014
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483303#483303
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Alternator/shunt question
From: 
"user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 22, 2018
      
      
      Yes, the ammeter will display reasonably correct.  Look at it this way:
      Even though the main alternator is rated for 60 amps, most of the time it is only
      putting out about half of its capacity.  The shunt will not know which alternator
      is sending 30 amps through it.  The load determines the current, not the
      alternator.
        Shunts have been known to fail, usually because of a loose connection that makes
      heat.
      
      --------
      Joe Gores
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483311#483311
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 22, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: Alternator/shunt question
      
      At 04:22 PM 9/21/2018, you wrote:
      >
      >Question.  If I run a 30amp backup alternator 
      >through the same shunt (Dynon) as the primary 60 
      >amp alternator., mating at the shunt entry and 
      >sharing the single cable at the shunt exit (wired as a battery load meter)
       ...
      
         You can run as many wires as you like
         through a current sensor. The instrument
         reading the current sensor will display
         the SUM of the currents in all wires.
      
         So, if two alternator b-leads share the
         same sensor, then the instrument displays
         only the operative alternator -OR- the
         sum of their efforts depending if they
         are both ON.
      
         However, b-lead monitoring of the alternators
         is NOT a battery load meter.
      
         Know that an ammeter is NOT generally considered
         a systems management tool for flight ops. It's
         a diagnostic tool that will sometime yield useful
         information . . . ON THE GROUND for chasing and
         subduing electro-gremlins.
      
         But it's important to know the significance of
         the displayed current reading. If only b-leads
         traverse the sensor, then you will never see
         the minus-zero-plus readings reminiscent of
         the legacy automotive ammeters popularized by
         Henry Ford and contemporaries.
      
         Battery ammeter readings are not definitive
         indicators of system performance and not recommended
         for new construction.
      
      >When the primary is offline, would the amp draw 
      >shown for the backup alternator be reasonably 
      >correct or would it show artificially 
      >low?  Would it=99s own distinct shunt be 
      >required give an accurate measurement of alternator output?
      
         The Dynon display for current will be as accurate
         as the instrument's designed capability irrespective of
         how many signal sources are being impressed on the
         sensor.
      
         The most useful indicator of system
         performance is the voltmeter . . . which is
         easily augmented by ACTIVE NOTIFICATION OF
         LOW VOLTAGE . . . your first lines of defense
         against the dark-panel syndrome.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Alternator/shunt question
From: 
"woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com>
Date: 
Sep 22, 2018
      
      
      Thanks for the responses. Let me break the scenario down further. 
      
      I recently installed the B&C 30 amp backup alternator.
      
      On my first longish flight to test the system I flew with basic essentials running
      at 2500 rpm.  Turning off both alternators, my ammeter read minus (-9) Amps
      at 12.5 volts.  Turning on the standby alternator, the ammeter showed minus
      (-2) amps at 12.9 volts which stayed more or less constant for several minutes.
      
      Obviously the backup is producing power, it just doesnt seem to be producing as
      much as I was expecting at what looks to me to be about 7 Amps. What I am trying
      to determine is if it is a low production issue, false indication issue, or
      a misinterpretation of correct indications.
      
      --------
      Myron Nelson
      Mesa, AZ
      Flew May 10 2014
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483316#483316
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 22, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: Alternator/shunt question
      
      At 02:04 PM 9/22/2018, you wrote:
      >
      >Thanks for the responses. Let me break the scenario down further.
      >
      >I recently installed the B&C 30 amp backup alternator.
      >
      >On my first longish flight to test the system I 
      >flew with basic essentials running at 2500 
      >rpm.  Turning off both alternators, my ammeter 
      >read minus (-9) Amps at 12.5 volts.  Turning on 
      >the standby alternator, the ammeter showed minus 
      >(-2) amps at 12.9 volts which stayed more or 
      >less constant for several minutes.
      >Obviously the backup is producing power, it just 
      >doesn=99t seem to be producing as much as I was 
      >expecting at what looks to me to be about 7 
      >Amps. What I am trying to determine is if it is 
      >a low production issue, false indication issue, 
      >or a misinterpretation of correct indications.
      
         If your ammeter does indeed produce minus readings
         with the alternator(s) OFF, then it is indeed
         wired as a battery ammeter and should have NO
         b-lead wires running through it.
      
         If the standby alternator boosts the bus voltage
         to something greater than 13.5 volts, then it
         is carrying ALL system loads and perhaps adding
         a bit to recharging the battery.
      
         If this condition is true, then the alternator
         is just fine irrespective of what the b-lead
         current might be.
      
         An alternator under regulation will deliver
         no more current than the system demands of it.
         B-lead current will be electro-whizzie demands
         added to battery demands . . . and could
         be quite low. If your bus voltage is correct,
         then the alternator is fine.
      
         Can you publish a schematic of how the current
         sensor is installed in your system?
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Alternator/shunt question
From: 
"user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 22, 2018
      
      
      Myron, based on your description, I agree that the aux alternator is putting out
      7 amps.  Perhaps the alternator is not spinning fast enough to generate its
      rated capacity.
        Looking at the attached picture from a Dynon manual, confirm that the shunt is
      in location A, and not B or C.
      
      --------
      Joe Gores
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483322#483322
      
      
      Attachments: 
      
      http://forums.matronics.com//files/shunt_location_867.jpg
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 23, 2018
From: 
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: 
Re: Alternator/shunt question
      
      At 09:22 PM 9/22/2018, you wrote:
      >
      >Myron, based on your description, I agree that the aux alternator is 
      >putting out 7 amps.  Perhaps the alternator is not spinning fast 
      >enough to generate its rated capacity.
      >   Looking at the attached picture from a Dynon manual, confirm that 
      > the shunt is in location A, and not B or C.
      >
      >--------
      >Joe Gores
      >
      
         Do I assume correctly that we're talking about a
         BC-462 alternator? Referring to B&C published data . . .
      
      Emacs!
      
      
         . . . the alternator is capable of at least 40A of
         output at nominal cruise rpms on any engine. Assuming
         that your current sensor is indeed installed as
         a battery ammeter -and- you're seeing -2A with the
         standby alternator ON, then we have to deduce that
         your bus voltage under this test condition is WAaayyyy
         too low . . . the battery is still supply a portion of
         the ship's running loads.
      
         You did not mention any observed voltage readings and
         as Joe suggests it would be helpful to confirm the
         actual location of your Dynon sensor in the system.
         What votlage regulator are you using on the standby
         alternator? Adjustable? Was it checked and adjusted as
         necessary at time of installation?
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
Date: 
Sep 23, 2018
Subject: 
Re: Alternator/shunt question
      
      On Sat, Sep 22, 2018 at 6:28 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
      nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
      
      > At 02:04 PM 9/22/2018, you wrote:
      >
      >
      > Thanks for the responses. Let me break the scenario down further.
      >
      > I recently installed the B&C 30 amp backup alternator.
      >
      > On my first longish flight to test the system I flew with basic essential
      s
      > running at 2500 rpm.  Turning off both alternators, my ammeter read minus
      > (-9) Amps at 12.5 volts.
      >
      > Barry - That indicates your system load is 9 Amps.
      
      > Turning on the standby alternator, the ammeter showed minus (-2) amps at
      > 12.9 volts which stayed more or less constant for several minutes.
      >
      > Barry - Here there are a few items and questions:
      9 Amps - 2 Amps = 7 Amps
      That indicated the Standby Alt is supplying 7 Amps to the electrical system
      load.
      Which is what the LOAD is!
      Question:  So, why is the LOAD without both alternators off Higher than the
      Load with one alternator?
      Question: Why do you say : "... 12.9 volts which stayed more or less
      constant for several minutes."?
      Are you referring to the voltage and the subsequent drop from 12.9 to 12.5
      VDC?
      If so, then the backup alternator is NOT putting out the required voltage.
      The 12.5 VDC on the load is LOW as you require 13.8 - 14.2 VDC to charge a
      battery.
      What should have been your next TEST would be to:
      Shut off the Stand-by Alt and turn on the Main Alt.
      IF the VOLTAGE from the Main Alt was 13.8 to 14.2 VDC then you can say the
      output of the Main Alt is correct.
      Follow that up with:  What is the Indicated Current draw with the Main Alt?
      IF the Main Alt is putting out the proper power you should see 9 Amps being
      supplied to the electrical Load for the Same Configuration as you checked
      things previously.
      Another very simple test would be to disconnect one lead from the battery
      and hook an Ammeter in series.  Use a good digital Ammeter and see what the
      current draw is.  For the same configuration as in your test it should be
      no less than the 9 Amps.  Slightly more when the engine is running due to
      the extra draw of the NON PM Alt's FIELD.
      
      Obviously the backup is producing power, it just doesn=C3=A2=82=AC=84
      =A2t seem to be
      > producing as much as I was expecting at what looks to me to be about 7
      > Amps. What I am trying to determine is if it is a low production issue,
      > false indication issue, or a misinterpretation of correct indications.
      >
      > Barry - If you do the above testing, the answer to this question will
      present itself.
      
      Best of luck,
      Barry
      
      >
      >   If your ammeter does indeed produce minus readings
      >   with the alternator(s) OFF, then it is indeed
      >   wired as a battery ammeter and should have NO
      >   b-lead wires running through it.
      >
      >   If the standby alternator boosts the bus voltage
      >   to something greater than 13.5 volts, then it
      >   is carrying ALL system loads and perhaps adding
      >   a bit to recharging the battery.
      >
      >   If this condition is true, then the alternator
      >   is just fine irrespective of what the b-lead
      >   current might be.
      >
      >   An alternator under regulation will deliver
      >   no more current than the system demands of it.
      >   B-lead current will be electro-whizzie demands
      >   added to battery demands . . . and could
      >   be quite low. If your bus voltage is correct,
      >   then the alternator is fine.
      >
      >   Can you publish a schematic of how the current
      >   sensor is installed in your system?
      >
      >
      >   Bob . . .
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Neil Parkinson <nwparkinson(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: 
Fwd: Hello everyone , new here and need some help !
Date: 
Sep 23, 2018
      
      
      > Hi all 
      > 
      > Im building an Rv8 and would like to make it IFR with a Garmin g3x fit 
      . 
      > 
      > After reading the excellent online book Aeroelectric Connection i 
      intend to use the system 13/8 with B&C parts . (Attached Diagram ) 
      > 
      > I however have a few  questions , as my school boy electrics is 
      struggling ! 
      > 
      > 1)What happens to an Alternator ( in this case the SD-8) when it 
      reaches its max current capacity , does it get hot and eventually blow , 
      or does it just start decreasing its voltage output , eventually going 
      below the battery voltage causing a current drain from the Batt ?
      > 
      > 2) If its the former I'm thinking following a Main Alternator  failure 
      if the Aux Alternator  is turned on ( without opening the main battery 
      contactor ) maybe there is room to overload this too ? If so i was 
      thinking maybe an improvement to this system would be an interlock that 
      when the E-Bus and Aux Alt  are  activated they open the ground to the 
      battery contactor coil and thus prevent an overload of the emergency 
      system ? Maybe you could have a guarded 3 posn switch that on first 
      click , opens the main battery contactor and closes the E-Bus Alternate 
      feed , then second click closes the AUX - Alt feed relay ? A one switch 
      saves the day sort of thing ??
      > 
      > 3) It would be nice to have a CAS message on my Garmin G3x that 
      indicates if the SD-8 is functioning ok incase of a main failure . Im 
      thinking of a =9CStandby Alt Fail =9C caption that would 
      indicate when ever the SD-8 is not producing power and ready for an 
      emergency . What sort of output would an unloaded ( Supply relay open ) 
      Sd-8 be producing ?  unstable , high , low or on task at 12v?? How can i 
      send a =9CI'm functioning ok and producing power =9C signal 
      ? Maybe a relay coil on its output that closes a signal to the G3X ?? ( 
      see my hand drawing ) 
      > 
      > But maybe id need diode after that coil to ensure its only Aux Alt 
      that can close it and not reverse supply ?? What would a Diode in the 
      line do to supply voltage ?? How could i make it so the relay closes at 
      12ish volts ??
      > 
      > Any better ideas ??
      > 
      > Too many questions I know !
      > 
      > Thank you so much for any help !
      > 
      > Neil 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Alternator/shunt question
From: 
"woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com>
Date: 
Sep 23, 2018
      
      
      My primary alt is a plane power 60A internally regulated. The B-lead connects to
      the load bus at the 60A C/B. From the load bus a lead ties to the input of the
      shunt.  The output of the shunt goes to the starter relay.  When the primary
      is functioning, the reading is always Positive, usually in the low teens after
      start which slowly works its way down to zero or one on a long flight. 
      
      The backup is a B&C 30A BC410-H regulated by a SB1B linear standby regulator. 
      Its B lead output runs to a 30A current limiter and then to the input of the shunt
      thereby tying to the tying to the starter relay with the same output cable
      as the primary. 
      
      The standby is set by the factory at 13 VDC. 
      
      The reading in flight is 14.3 VDC and 1 amp with primary operating. 
      
      It is 12.5 VDC and MINUS 9 A with both Alts off 
      
      It is 12.9 VDC and minus 2 A with the backup only operating.
      
      --------
      Myron Nelson
      Mesa, AZ
      Flew May 10 2014
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483332#483332
      

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August 16, 2018 - September 23, 2018

AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-oo

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