AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-pe
November 01, 2019 - December 21, 2019
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counts!
This year we have a really HUGE and TERRIFIC line up of free gifts to go along
with the various Contribution levels. In fact, there are 9 great gifts to choose
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Please make your List Contribution using any one of three secure methods including
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Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
RV-4/RV-6/RV-8 Builder/Rebuilder/Builder-Pilot
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | PLEASE READ - Matronics Email List 2019 Fund Raiser |
During November!
Dear Listers,
Each November I hold a PBS-like fund raiser to support the continued operation
and upgrade of the Email List and Fourm Services at Matronics. It's solely through
the Contributions of List members (you) that these Matronics Lists are possible.
You have probably noticed that there are no banner ads or pop-up windows on any of the Matronics Lists or related web sites such as the Forums site http://forums.matronics.com , Wiki site http://wiki.matronics.com , or other related pages such as the List Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search , List Browse http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse , etc. This is because I believe in a List experience that is completely about the sport we all enjoy - namely Airplanes and not about annoying advertisements.
During the month of November I will be sending out List messages every couple of
days reminding everyone that the Fund Raiser is underway. I ask for your patience
and understanding during the Fund Raiser and throughout these regular messages.
The Fund Raiser is only financial support mechanism I have to pay all
of the bills associated with running these lists. YOUR personal Contribution
counts!
This year we have a really HUGE and TERRIFIC line up of free gifts to go along
with the various Contribution levels. In fact, there are 12 great gifts to choose
from! There's something for everyone, to be sure.
Please make your List Contribution using any one of three secure methods including
using a Credit Card, PayPal, or by Personal Check. All three methods afford
you the opportunity to select one of this year's free gifts with a qualifying
Contribution amount!!
To make your Contribution, please visit the secure web site:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
I would like to thank everyone in advance for their generous financial AND moral
support over the years!
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
RV-4/RV-6/RV-8 Builder/Rebuilder/Builder-Pilot
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ronald Cox <flyboyron(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | PLEASE READ - Matronics Email List 2018 Fund Raiser |
During November! (Matt Dralle)
>
>
> Done!
Thanks, Matt, for providing the platform for such useful and educational
forums.
Ron Cox
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Please Make A Contribution To Support Your Lists |
Dear Listers,
There is no advertising income to support the Matronics Email Lists and Forums.
The operation is supported 100% by your personal Contributions during the November
Fund Raiser.
Please make your Contribution today to support the continued operation and upgrade
of these services. You can pick up a really nice gift for making your Contribution
too!
You may use a Credit Card or Paypal at the Matronics Contribution Site here:
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or, you can send a personal check to the following address:
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Thank you in advance for your generous support!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
Sorry for an off topic question but we have so many ebay experts here I
thought I should ask. Has anyone found an accurate tire gauge on ebay for a
good price?
Thank you
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 01:42 PM 11/3/2019, you wrote:
>Sorry for an off topic question but we have so many ebay experts
>here I thought I should ask. Has anyone found an accurate tire gauge
>on ebay for a good price?
>
>Thank you
I like this one. https://tinyurl.com/y526jn4q
easy for kids to use . . . the chuck grasps the
Schrader valve and prevents leaks while
the user adjusts pressures at their leisure.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | When real estate is limited, go up young man . . . |
go up
Have a couple of nice monitors that take
up too much room when side-by-side Decided
to go up instead . . . will let you know how
it works out.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: When real estate is limited, go up young man . |
. . go up
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 11/3/2019 3:58 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> Have a couple of nice monitors that take
> up too much room when side-by-side Decided
> to go up instead . . . will let you know how
> it works out.
>
>
> Bob . . .
Interesting idea (and well executed). I'm sitting at my computer, trying
to visualize what it'd be like to add a 2nd monitor above the current
one. Trickiest thing for me (after retraining to look up/down instead of
side/side) would be managing my progressive bifocals.
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kensmith <kensmith(at)springnet1.com> |
On 11/3/2019 1:42 PM, Sebastien wrote:
> Sorry for an off topic question but we have so many ebay experts here
> I thought I should ask. Has anyone found an accurate tire gauge on
> ebay for a good price?
>
> Thank you
Sebastien -- can't help you with that one. Have two BMW's (mine and the
wife's) and they send one with the order of their cars.
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Tipton <john(at)tiptonuk.eu> |
| Subject: | Re: When real estate is limited, go up young man . |
. . go up
Nice idea, but as pointed out those with Varifocal lenses may find it a challenge,
also its a no-go if your second screen is in the vertical (word processor)
position.
John
Sent from my iPad
----x--O--x----
> On 3 Nov 2019, at 10:40 pm, Charlie England wrote:
>
>
>> On 11/3/2019 3:58 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>> Have a couple of nice monitors that take
>> up too much room when side-by-side Decided
>> to go up instead . . . will let you know how
>> it works out.
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
> Interesting idea (and well executed). I'm sitting at my computer, trying to visualize
what it'd be like to add a 2nd monitor above the current one. Trickiest
thing for me (after retraining to look up/down instead of side/side) would
be managing my progressive bifocals.
>
> Charlie
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: When real estate is limited, go up young man |
. . . go up
>> Bob . . .
>Interesting idea (and well executed). I'm sitting at my computer,
>trying to visualize what it'd be like to add a 2nd monitor above the
>current one. Trickiest thing for me (after retraining to look
>up/down instead of side/side) would be managing my progressive bifocals.
>
>Charlie
I set up the screens for a 25-27" viewing distance
(37 degree forward tilt on upper screen).
You might check on a prescription for 'computer
classes' . . . a one distance cut on the lenses.
Zenni and others are very inexpensive for on-line
orders.
I've had both lenses replaced due to cataracts and
the depth of field is phenomenal. I'm putting
work product on the lower screen and reference
materials on upper screen. I barely need to tilt
my head up to access upper screen data. I'm 99%
functional without corrective lenses so that
helps!
The biggest 'worry' so far is that the
footprint on the table is dictated by the monitor
width and tilt angle (to keep solid support
centered on CG). This puts my mouse a bit further
out to the right. I'll have to see what human
factors arise from that change. I've got a
plan-b in mind if that proves prolematic.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com> |
https://www.amazon.com/JACO-ElitePro-Digital-Pressure-Gauge/dp/B07JL8YB36/ref=sr_1_7?keywords=tire+pressure+gauge+car&qid=1572832030&sr=8-7
works well, lasts a long time.
-chris
On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 11:50 AM Sebastien wrote:
> Sorry for an off topic question but we have so many ebay experts here I
> thought I should ask. Has anyone found an accurate tire gauge on ebay for a
> good price?
>
> Thank you
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Tipton <john(at)tiptonuk.eu> |
| Subject: | Re: When real estate is limited, go up young man . |
. . go up
I see ATC have as many as three screens vertically aligned, that must be a s
train on the neck ~
John
Sent from my iPad
----x--O--x----
> On 4 Nov 2019, at 2:00 am, John Tipton wrote:
>
uk.eu>
>
> Nice idea, but as pointed out those with Varifocal lenses may find it a ch
allenge, also it=99s a no-go if your second screen is in the vertical (
word processor) position.
>
> John
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> ----x--O--x----
>
>> On 3 Nov 2019, at 10:40 pm, Charlie England wrote:
>>
and7(at)gmail.com>
>>
>>>> On 11/3/2019 3:58 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>> Have a couple of nice monitors that take
>>> up too much room when side-by-side Decided
>>> to go up instead . . . will let you know how
>>> it works out.
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob . . .
>> Interesting idea (and well executed). I'm sitting at my computer, trying t
o visualize what it'd be like to add a 2nd monitor above the current one. Tr
ickiest thing for me (after retraining to look up/down instead of side/side)
would be managing my progressive bifocals.
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>> --
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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=========
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=========
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com> |
Assuming the low cost units still use 8 bit processors, the 200 psi
gauges typically can't resolve better than 1 psi whereas the 100 psi
ones will often resolve down to 0.5 which I prefer for light aircraft
and automobiles.
Ken
On 03/11/2019 4:38 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 01:42 PM 11/3/2019, you wrote:
>> Sorry for an off topic question but we have so many ebay experts here
>> I thought I should ask. Has anyone found an accurate tire gauge on
>> ebay for a good price?
>>
>> Thank you
>
> I like this one. https://tinyurl.com/y526jn4q
>
> easy for kids to use . . . the chuck
> grasps the
> Schrader valve and prevents leaks while
> the user adjusts pressures at their leisure.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kensmith <kensmith(at)springnet1.com> |
On 11/3/2019 7:34 PM, kensmith wrote:
> On 11/3/2019 1:42 PM, Sebastien wrote:
>> Sorry for an off topic question but we have so many ebay experts here
>> I thought I should ask. Has anyone found an accurate tire gauge on
>> ebay for a good price?
>>
>> Thank you
>
> Sebastien -- can't help you with that one. Have two BMW's (mine and
> the wife's) and they send one with the order of their cars.
>
> Ken
>
Sebastien --- I grew up on a farm and it was very important to have a
very accurate pressure gauge around the equipment. You might try maybe a
looking for John Deere, or Case/International Harvestor equipment on
E-Bay 0r Amazon.
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
I splurged and bought one of the Milwaukee M12 battery powered
tire inflators.
https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Power-Tools/Specialty-Tools/2475-20
My son had one and, after trying his, it was a no brainer. It's fast, even
on full-size car tires, and dead accurate. It's hose screws onto the valve
stem. Using this is so much easier than swapping back and forth between a
tire gauge and a compressed air tank or hauling a compressed air hose all
around the garage/hangar.
-- Art Z.
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. *Deut. 10:19
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: When real estate is limited, go up young man . |
. . go up
I have my screens rotated 90 degrees.=C2- It is great for a programmer,
that wants to read long sheets of text.=C2- Doing it that way, three moni
tors would barely take more desk space than what your mount consumes.
uckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
Have a couple of nice monitors that take
up too much room when side-by-side Decided
to go up instead . . . will let you know how
it works out.
=C2- Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Feneht <peter.feneht(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: When real estate is limited, go up young man . |
. . go up
Is there an understood (by others) standard or rule of thumb that
encourages members to respond to a question. I posted one more than a week
ago about my instrument panel design/layout and I had no response
whatsoever. I am guessing that maybe it was too long and open-ended for
others to consider, but then it would be just that, a guess. Can someone
at least inform me as to how I might get responses - in a system that seems
to have a fairly generous, free flow of advice? Thanks. --Peter Feneht
On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 4:10 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> Have a couple of nice monitors that take
> up too much room when side-by-side Decided
> to go up instead . . . will let you know how
> it works out.
>
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: When real estate is limited, go up young man . |
. . go up
Peter I remember your post. I would suggest you did not get any responses
because your panel looks fine and your post didn't have any questions to be
answered. If you have some questions, post again and I'm sure you'll get
answers.
On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 8:55 AM Peter Feneht wrote:
> Is there an understood (by others) standard or rule of thumb that
> encourages members to respond to a question. I posted one more than a week
> ago about my instrument panel design/layout and I had no response
> whatsoever. I am guessing that maybe it was too long and open-ended for
> others to consider, but then it would be just that, a guess. Can someone
> at least inform me as to how I might get responses - in a system that seems
> to have a fairly generous, free flow of advice? Thanks. --Peter Feneht
>
> On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 4:10 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> Have a couple of nice monitors that take
>> up too much room when side-by-side Decided
>> to go up instead . . . will let you know how
>> it works out.
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: When real estate is limited, go up young man |
. . . go up
At 09:13 AM 11/4/2019, you wrote:
>I have my screens rotated 90 degrees. It is great for a programmer, that
>wants to read long sheets of text. Doing it that way, three monitors
>would barely take more desk space than what your mount consumes.
These monitors are 17 x 29 . . . so just a pair of them
would be 32+ inches across the desk. "Portrait" orientation
would not be very AutoCAD or Photoshop friendly. Virtually
all work in those applications is in 'landscape' . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Todd Bartrim <bartrim(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Engine monitor display scramble from EFI sense line |
EM2 from RWS
I have an issue with my engine monitor display where the display will
scramble leaving me with a meaningless display as can be seen in the
attached picture
[image: EM2 display_scrambled.jpg]
The engine Monitor is from Real World Solutions and is the very early first
edition EM2 (serial #003). I also have an early edition EC2 (engine
ignition and injection controller).
RWS was Tracy Crooks company before he retired, and he still provides some
support when he can, however he also is enjoying his retirement offline so
is often hard to get a hold of,
so I thought I would pose the question here while awaiting a response so
maybe I won't even have to bother him.
So here are the details of the problem. The engine monitor has 36?
different parameters that it displays on 8 screens. There are 24 different
sensors (pressure, temperature, level) with the remaining being provided
through a serial data link from the EC2 along with an EFI sense which is
connected to the #1 primary injector output from the EC2. I've determined
that it's this last wire that is causing my grief.
This EFI sense is measured for it's pulse width in order to calculate a
surprisingly accurate fuel flow, RPM, HP, fuel remaining, MPG (for
efficiency). But the noise on this line seems to be the cause of the data
scrambling on the display. Simply pressing the cancel button (there are 4
user buttons to control display) will rest and clear the issue.
But here's the weird part. It seems to be related to relative humidity.
During hot dry, summer weather this display will rarely scramble, sometimes
going up to an hour without an issue. But on cooler humid days I would have
to reset it every few minutes which gets a little annoying. However right
now as we are not enjoying the cold November rains before winter will
arrive with cold dry weather, I'm finding that it is scrambling almost
immediately after a reset. This makes no sense to me, but I've observed
this pattern enough to be sort of certain that it is not a coincidence...
but I could be wrong.
In any event, it matters not whether it is or isn't triggered more by the
humidity, but what it did allow me to do is determine where the issue is
coming from as before it was too random to allow easy troubleshooting but
now as it is more consistent it was quite quick to narrow it down.
I've cut this line (which is shielded with only one end of the shield
grounded) and installed a connector. With it disconnected, the EM2 display
is rock steady (up to a 10 minute ground run) but with no RPM or any fuel,
power, or efficiency data. Connect the line and it immediately will
scramble. I estimate that the frequency of the injector pulse on this line
would only be at max about 100Hz at 6000 RPM. I've considered that a simple
low pass RF filter to ground may work as the frequency that I'm trying to
measure is well below what the filter would remove, but would it still have
an effect on the pulse width? which would be undesirable as that would
effect the signal driving the #1 primary injector.
I'm hoping that someone can suggest an easy fix so that I can implement
it when I get back up to the airport this weekend, other wise if more data
is needed to help find a solution I will take a scope up there and try to
get some more detailed data.
Right now our days are getting pretty short up north here so it's dark by
the time I get off work, so I'm restricted to weekends only. Thanks for any
help that can be provided.
Todd Bartrim
RV9 13Bturbo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine monitor display scramble from EFI sense |
line EM2 from RWS
Just watching a video the other day about old solder joints that break or crack
due to hot/cold cycles or mechanical stress. They are difficult to detect with
the eye but I think I would try to touch as many of your joints as possible
with a small soldering iron.
-Kent
> On Nov 5, 2019, at 4:03 AM, Todd Bartrim wrote:
>
> I have an issue with my engine monitor display where the display will scramble
leaving me with a meaningless display as can be seen in the attached picture
>
> The engine Monitor is from Real World Solutions and is the very early first edition
EM2 (serial #003). I also have an early edition EC2 (engine ignition and
injection controller).
> RWS was Tracy Crooks company before he retired, and he still provides some support
when he can, however he also is enjoying his retirement offline so is often
hard to get a hold of,
> so I thought I would pose the question here while awaiting a response so maybe
I won't even have to bother him.
>
> So here are the details of the problem. The engine monitor has 36? different
parameters that it displays on 8 screens. There are 24 different sensors (pressure,
temperature, level) with the remaining being provided through a serial
data link from the EC2 along with an EFI sense which is connected to the #1 primary
injector output from the EC2. I've determined that it's this last wire
that is causing my grief.
> This EFI sense is measured for it's pulse width in order to calculate a surprisingly
accurate fuel flow, RPM, HP, fuel remaining, MPG (for efficiency). But
the noise on this line seems to be the cause of the data scrambling on the display.
Simply pressing the cancel button (there are 4 user buttons to control
display) will rest and clear the issue.
> But here's the weird part. It seems to be related to relative humidity. During
hot dry, summer weather this display will rarely scramble, sometimes going
up to an hour without an issue. But on cooler humid days I would have to reset
it every few minutes which gets a little annoying. However right now as we
are not enjoying the cold November rains before winter will arrive with cold dry
weather, I'm finding that it is scrambling almost immediately after a reset.
This makes no sense to me, but I've observed this pattern enough to be sort
of certain that it is not a coincidence... but I could be wrong.
> In any event, it matters not whether it is or isn't triggered more by the humidity,
but what it did allow me to do is determine where the issue is coming from
as before it was too random to allow easy troubleshooting but now as it is
more consistent it was quite quick to narrow it down.
> I've cut this line (which is shielded with only one end of the shield grounded)
and installed a connector. With it disconnected, the EM2 display is rock
steady (up to a 10 minute ground run) but with no RPM or any fuel, power, or efficiency
data. Connect the line and it immediately will scramble. I estimate
that the frequency of the injector pulse on this line would only be at max about
100Hz at 6000 RPM. I've considered that a simple low pass RF filter to ground
may work as the frequency that I'm trying to measure is well below what the
filter would remove, but would it still have an effect on the pulse width? which
would be undesirable as that would effect the signal driving the #1 primary
injector.
> I'm hoping that someone can suggest an easy fix so that I can implement it
when I get back up to the airport this weekend, other wise if more data is needed
to help find a solution I will take a scope up there and try to get some more
detailed data.
> Right now our days are getting pretty short up north here so it's dark by the
time I get off work, so I'm restricted to weekends only. Thanks for any help
that can be provided.
>
> Todd Bartrim
>
> RV9 13Bturbo
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Engine monitor display scramble from EFI sense |
line EM2 from RWS
| From: | C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com> |
Rather than adding filtering that was previously not needed I'd start by
confirming ground integrity. FIrst in external wiring and then for
circuit board solder joints. Then I test and usually replace any
electrolytic caps in the sensing circuit and power supply circuitry.
Selectively warming (drying) or cooling (freeze spray) the circuit board
components is a quick test that can help narrow things down. Eventually
I look at whether the input signal itself has changed but in my limited
experience that is more likely on ignition sensing than on an injector
sensing if the grounds are good. I have not worked on any RWS systems.
The good news is that now that you can immediately trigger the fault,
your chances of finding the problem are much improved. With analog
inputs I also like to clean the board with alcohol when humidity is
suspected but I doubt that is a problem with your digital pulse sending.
Ken
On 05/11/2019 4:03 AM, Todd Bartrim wrote:
> I have an issue with my engine monitor display where the display will
> scramble leaving me with a meaningless display as can be seen in the
> attached picture
> EM2 display_scrambled.jpg
> The engine Monitor is from Real World Solutions and is the very early
> first edition EM2 (serial #003). I also have an early edition EC2
> (engine ignition and injection controller).
> RWS was Tracy Crooks company before he retired, and he still provides
> some support when he can, however he also is enjoying his
> retirementoffline so is often hard to get a hold of,
> so I thought I would pose the question here while awaiting a response
> so maybe I won't even have to bother him.
>
> So here are the details of the problem. The engine monitor has 36?
> different parameters that it displays on 8 screens. There are 24
> different sensors (pressure, temperature, level) with the remaining
> being provided through a serial data link from the EC2 along with an
> EFI sense which is connected to the #1 primary injector output from
> the EC2. I've determined that it's this last wire that is causing my
> grief.
> This EFI sense is measured for it's pulse width in order to calculate
> a surprisingly accurate fuel flow, RPM, HP, fuel remaining, MPG (for
> efficiency). But the noise on this line seems to be the cause of the
> data scrambling on the display. Simply pressing the cancel button
> (there are 4 user buttons to control display) will rest and clear the
> issue.
> But here's the weird part. It seems to be related to relative
> humidity. During hot dry, summer weather this display will rarely
> scramble, sometimes going up to an hour without an issue. But on
> cooler humid days I would have to reset it every few minutes which
> gets a little annoying. However right now as we are not enjoying the
> cold November rains before winter will arrive with cold dry weather,
> I'm finding that it is scrambling almost immediately after a reset.
> This makes no sense to me, but I've observed this pattern enough to be
> sort of certain that it is not a coincidence... but I could be wrong.
> In any event, it matters not whether it is or isn't triggered more by
> the humidity, but what it did allow me to do is determine where the
> issue is coming from as before it was too random to allow easy
> troubleshooting but now as it is more consistent it was quite quick to
> narrow it down.
> I've cut this line (which is shielded with only one end of the
> shield grounded) and installed a connector. With it disconnected, the
> EM2 display is rock steady (up to a 10 minute ground run) but with no
> RPM or any fuel, power, or efficiency data. Connect the line and it
> immediately will scramble. I estimate that the frequency of the
> injector pulse on this line would only be at max about 100Hz at 6000
> RPM. I've considered that a simple low pass RF filter to ground may
> work as the frequency that I'm trying to measure is well below what
> the filter would remove, but would it still have an effect on the
> pulse width? which would be undesirable as that would effect the
> signal driving the #1 primary injector.
> I'm hoping that someone can suggest an easy fix so that I can
> implement it when I get back up to the airport this weekend, other
> wise if more data is needed to help find a solution I will take a
> scope up there and try to get some more detailed data.
> Right now our days are getting pretty short up north here so it's
> dark by the time I get off work, so I'm restricted to weekends only.
> Thanks for any help that can be provided.
>
> Todd Bartrim
>
> RV9 13Bturbo
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Engine monitor display scramble from EFI sense |
line EM2 fro
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
[quote="kjashton(at)vnet.net"]Just watching a video the other day about old solder
joints that break or crack due to hot/cold cycles or mechanical stress. They
are difficult to detect with the eye but I think I would try to touch as many
of your joints as possible with a small soldering iron.
-Kent
I had this happen on an automotive dashboard mounted environmental control that
worked intermittently. The circuit board had a control side and a power side.
Some of the power side solder joints looked like this photo. I had a theory it
happened on the power side due to greater thermal excursions perhaps in combination
with other factors. Remelting fixed it.
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF
O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u6GeZo6pmBWsKykLNVQMvu4o1VEVyP4K
Newport News, Va
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492376#492376
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/broken_solder_circuit_board_thru_pins_190.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Coming Soon - The List of Contributors - Please Make |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Todd Bartrim <bartrim(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Engine monitor display scramble from EFI sense |
line EM2 from RWS
I think I may have found the culprit in a bad solder joint on the DB37
connector that is used. It was not on the pin used for the injector pulse
in question but on a nearby pin that is used for the crank angle sensor,
which is known to be a noisy signal at the best of times so careful
shielding and routing of the wires is called for. Unfortunately inside the
crowded confines of a DB37 connector back-shell, this is a difficult task
to isolate from the other wires sharing this connection. So a bad solder
joint on an already known noisy wire packed tightly with my suspect wire,
sounds like a plausible cause.
Quick and easy repair, but I'll have to wait until the weekend to go
back up to the airport to test it.
Thanks for the comments
Todd Bartrim
On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 6:24 AM C&K wrote:
>
> Rather than adding filtering that was previously not needed I'd start by
> confirming ground integrity. FIrst in external wiring and then for
> circuit board solder joints. Then I test and usually replace any
> electrolytic caps in the sensing circuit and power supply circuitry.
> Selectively warming (drying) or cooling (freeze spray) the circuit board
> components is a quick test that can help narrow things down. Eventually
> I look at whether the input signal itself has changed but in my limited
> experience that is more likely on ignition sensing than on an injector
> sensing if the grounds are good. I have not worked on any RWS systems.
> The good news is that now that you can immediately trigger the fault,
> your chances of finding the problem are much improved. With analog
> inputs I also like to clean the board with alcohol when humidity is
> suspected but I doubt that is a problem with your digital pulse sending.
> Ken
>
> On 05/11/2019 4:03 AM, Todd Bartrim wrote:
> > I have an issue with my engine monitor display where the display will
> > scramble leaving me with a meaningless display as can be seen in the
> > attached picture
> > EM2 display_scrambled.jpg
> > The engine Monitor is from Real World Solutions and is the very early
> > first edition EM2 (serial #003). I also have an early edition EC2
> > (engine ignition and injection controller).
> > RWS was Tracy Crooks company before he retired, and he still provides
> > some support when he can, however he also is enjoying his
> > retirement offline so is often hard to get a hold of,
> > so I thought I would pose the question here while awaiting a response
> > so maybe I won't even have to bother him.
> >
> > So here are the details of the problem. The engine monitor has 36?
> > different parameters that it displays on 8 screens. There are 24
> > different sensors (pressure, temperature, level) with the remaining
> > being provided through a serial data link from the EC2 along with an
> > EFI sense which is connected to the #1 primary injector output from
> > the EC2. I've determined that it's this last wire that is causing my
> > grief.
> > This EFI sense is measured for it's pulse width in order to calculate
> > a surprisingly accurate fuel flow, RPM, HP, fuel remaining, MPG (for
> > efficiency). But the noise on this line seems to be the cause of the
> > data scrambling on the display. Simply pressing the cancel button
> > (there are 4 user buttons to control display) will rest and clear the
> > issue.
> > But here's the weird part. It seems to be related to relative
> > humidity. During hot dry, summer weather this display will rarely
> > scramble, sometimes going up to an hour without an issue. But on
> > cooler humid days I would have to reset it every few minutes which
> > gets a little annoying. However right now as we are not enjoying the
> > cold November rains before winter will arrive with cold dry weather,
> > I'm finding that it is scrambling almost immediately after a reset.
> > This makes no sense to me, but I've observed this pattern enough to be
> > sort of certain that it is not a coincidence... but I could be wrong.
> > In any event, it matters not whether it is or isn't triggered more by
> > the humidity, but what it did allow me to do is determine where the
> > issue is coming from as before it was too random to allow easy
> > troubleshooting but now as it is more consistent it was quite quick to
> > narrow it down.
> > I've cut this line (which is shielded with only one end of the
> > shield grounded) and installed a connector. With it disconnected, the
> > EM2 display is rock steady (up to a 10 minute ground run) but with no
> > RPM or any fuel, power, or efficiency data. Connect the line and it
> > immediately will scramble. I estimate that the frequency of the
> > injector pulse on this line would only be at max about 100Hz at 6000
> > RPM. I've considered that a simple low pass RF filter to ground may
> > work as the frequency that I'm trying to measure is well below what
> > the filter would remove, but would it still have an effect on the
> > pulse width? which would be undesirable as that would effect the
> > signal driving the #1 primary injector.
> > I'm hoping that someone can suggest an easy fix so that I can
> > implement it when I get back up to the airport this weekend, other
> > wise if more data is needed to help find a solution I will take a
> > scope up there and try to get some more detailed data.
> > Right now our days are getting pretty short up north here so it's
> > dark by the time I get off work, so I'm restricted to weekends only.
> > Thanks for any help that can be provided.
> >
> > Todd Bartrim
> >
> > RV9 13Bturbo
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | =?utf-8?Q?Using_a_BNC_=9CT=9D? |
=EF=BBGuys
I=99m sure this has been asked (and answered) before, but I am too old
for my memory to remember of it, and too lazy to look for it in the archive
s...
I have just installed a 2nd Comm antenna in my aircraft, a plain vanilla RAM
I AV-10, which is intended to be used either by a future Comm 2 radio or by a
hand-held radio which I will carry in my flight bag.
For that purpose I installed 2 antenna cables, one which goes from the anten
na to the place where I planned to put the future Comm 2 radio, and the othe
r cable goes from the antenna to somewhere near the pilot seat, where a loos
e end with a female BNC connector will be connected to the hand-held radio i
n case I need to use it.
So, the question is: is it ok to install a =9CT=9D like these
below the antenna, and connect to it the 2 cables mentioned above?
Thanks
Carlos
Enviado do meu iPhone
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IEFlcm9FbGVjdHJpYy1MaXN0OiBVc2luZyBhIEJOQyDigJxU4oCd? |
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
What are you trying to do? Why would you want a Tee? If I understand
correctly you want to connect one antenna to panel mount radio, then
connect the second antenna to your handheld. You do NOT want to tie the
two antennas together.
On 11/6/2019 5:23 PM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
> Guys
>
> Im sure this has been asked (and answered) before, but I am too old for
> my memory to remember of it, and too lazy to look for it in the archives...
>
> I have just installed a 2nd Comm antenna in my aircraft, a plain vanilla
> RAMI AV-10, which is intended to be used either by a future Comm 2 radio
> or by a hand-held radio which I will carry in my flight bag.
> For that purpose I installed 2 antenna cables, one which goes from the
> antenna to the place where I planned to put the future Comm 2 radio, and
> the other cable goes from the antenna to somewhere near the pilot seat,
> where a loose end with a female BNC connector will be connected to the
> hand-held radio in case I need to use it.
>
> So, the question is: is it ok to install a T like these
>
>
> below the antenna, and connect to it the 2 cables mentioned above?
>
> Thanks
> Carlos
>
>
> Enviado do meu iPhone
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re:_AeroElectric-List:_Using_a_BNC_=9CT=9D? |
> On Nov 6, 2019, at 4:23 PM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>
> I have just installed a 2nd Comm antenna in my aircraft...
Carlos, the short answer is no. The extra length of open-ended coax will ru
in the impedance match between either radio and the antenna, and transmittin
g on one radio with the other connected through the tee might well result in
(expensive) tears.
This situation calls for either:
1) A coaxial switch that connects the antenna to only a single radio at a ti
me and disconnects the other; or,
2) Delete the tee and leave both lengths of coax in place. Connect the ante
nna to the coax feeding your handheld for now. When you later install the C
omm 2 radio, connect that coax at the antenna and remove or abandon the one t
o the handheld.
Eric
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re:_AeroElectric-List:_Using_a_BNC_=9CT=9D? |
Thank you Eric
Is there any automatic coaxial switch?
Can you please point me out to a suitable coaxial switch (eBay, Amazon, mous
er, ...).
Cheers
Carlos
Enviado do meu iPhone
> No dia 07/11/2019, =C3-s 05:20, Eric Page escreveu:
>
> =EF=BB
>> On Nov 6, 2019, at 4:23 PM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>>
>> I have just installed a 2nd Comm antenna in my aircraft...
>
>
>
> Carlos, the short answer is no. The extra length of open-ended coax will r
uin the impedance match between either radio and the antenna, and transmitti
ng on one radio with the other connected through the tee might well result i
n (expensive) tears.
>
> This situation calls for either:
>
> 1) A coaxial switch that connects the antenna to only a single radio at a t
ime and disconnects the other; or,
>
> 2) Delete the tee and leave both lengths of coax in place. Connect the an
tenna to the coax feeding your handheld for now. When you later install the
Comm 2 radio, connect that coax at the antenna and remove or abandon the on
e to the handheld.
>
> Eric
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IEFlcm9FbGVjdHJpYy1MaXN0OiBVc2luZyBhIEJOQyDigJxU4oCd? |
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
I am not aware of any suitable switch. Icom used to offer, (and King
before them) a small box that made the switch when antenna cable for
handheld was plugged in. Not elegant, but mostly worked.
If you terminate the cable in location easily reached, it may be better
to simply disconnect cable from one radio and connect it to the other.
Kelly
On 11/7/2019 6:04 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
> Thank you Eric
>
> Is there any automatic coaxial switch?
> Can you please point me out to a suitable coaxial switch (eBay, Amazon,
> mouser, ...).
>
> Cheers
> Carlos
>
>
> Enviado do meu iPhone
>
>> No dia 07/11/2019, s 05:20, Eric Page escreveu:
>>
>>
>> On Nov 6, 2019, at 4:23 PM, Carlos Trigo > > wrote:
>>
>>> I have just installed a 2nd Comm antenna in my aircraft...
>>
>>
>> Carlos, the short answer is no. The extra length of open-ended coax
>> will ruin the impedance match between either radio and the antenna,
>> and transmitting on one radio with the other connected through the tee
>> might well result in (expensive) tears.
>>
>> This situation calls for either:
>>
>> 1) A coaxial switch that connects the antenna to only a single radio
>> at a time and disconnects the other; or,
>>
>> 2) Delete the tee and leave both lengths of coax in place. Connect
>> the antenna to the coax feeding your handheld for now. When you later
>> install the Comm 2 radio, connect that coax at the antenna and remove
>> or abandon the one to the handheld.
>>
>> Eric
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IEFlcm9FbGVjdHJpYy1MaXN0OiBSZTogQWVyb0VsZWN0cmljLUxpc3Q6IFVzaW5nIA==?= |
=?UTF-8?B?YSBCTkMg4oCcVOKAnQ==?
Bob has a cartoon assembly guide to rolling your own... very simple all in
a small project box.
-chris
On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 5:26 AM Kelly McMullen wrote:
> kellym(at)aviating.com>
>
> I am not aware of any suitable switch. Icom used to offer, (and King
> before them) a small box that made the switch when antenna cable for
> handheld was plugged in. Not elegant, but mostly worked.
> If you terminate the cable in location easily reached, it may be better
> to simply disconnect cable from one radio and connect it to the other.
> Kelly
>
> On 11/7/2019 6:04 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
> > Thank you Eric
> >
> > Is there any automatic coaxial switch?
> > Can you please point me out to a suitable coaxial switch (eBay, Amazon,
> > mouser, ...).
> >
> > Cheers
> > Carlos
> >
> >
> > Enviado do meu iPhone
> >
> >> No dia 07/11/2019, =C3-s 05:20, Eric Page escrev
eu:
> >>
> >> =EF=BB
> >> On Nov 6, 2019, at 4:23 PM, Carlos Trigo >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>> I have just installed a 2nd Comm antenna in my aircraft...
> >>
> >>
> >> Carlos, the short answer is no. The extra length of open-ended coax
> >> will ruin the impedance match between either radio and the antenna,
> >> and transmitting on one radio with the other connected through the tee
> >> might well result in (expensive) tears.
> >>
> >> This situation calls for either:
> >>
> >> 1) A coaxial switch that connects the antenna to only a single radio
> >> at a time and disconnects the other; or,
> >>
> >> 2) Delete the tee and leave both lengths of coax in place. Connect
> >> the antenna to the coax feeding your handheld for now. When you later
> >> install the Comm 2 radio, connect that coax at the antenna and remove
> >> or abandon the one to the handheld.
> >>
> >> Eric
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Please Make A Contribution To Support Your Lists |
Dear Listers,
There is no advertising income to support the Matronics Email Lists and Forums.
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Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IEFlcm9FbGVjdHJpYy1MaXN0OiBVc2luZyBhIEJOQyDigJxU4oCd? |
| From: | Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> |
Hi Carlos,
I have a Narco VP-16 antenna switch that I'm not using. Asking $25 +
s/h. It uses an electrical relay to switch between the two radios, so
you could have a toggle switch mounted on the panel to select which
radio is connected to the antenna for example, or possibly get fancy and
figure out a circuit to have it switch when you key the mic on the
second radio.
https://deej.net/forsale/#narco
IMHO it would be better to mount a second antenna on your plane and
have a dedicated antenna for each radio.
-Dj
On 11/7/19 8:04 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
> Thank you Eric
>
> Is there any automatic coaxial switch?
> Can you please point me out to a suitable coaxial switch (eBay, Amazon,
> mouser, ...).
>
> Cheers
> Carlos
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV - EAA Chapter 87
Currently Flying: Glastar
Previously: Cessna 150 - Glasair 1 FT - Grumman AA1B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John MacKenzie <jmackenzie52(at)outlook.com> |
| Subject: | Re: s-1252?Q?Re:_AeroElectric-List:_Re:_AeroElectric-List:_Using_a_BN?= |
=?Windows-1252?Q?C_=93T=94?
Please remove from mailing list
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-list
-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Dj Merrill
Sent: Thursday, November 7, 2019 8:04 AM
os Trigo
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List: Using a BNC =93T=94
Hi Carlos,
I have a Narco VP-16 antenna switch that I'm not using. Asking $25
+
s/h. It uses an electrical relay to switch between the two radios, so
you could have a toggle switch mounted on the panel to select which
radio is connected to the antenna for example, or possibly get fancy and
figure out a circuit to have it switch when you key the mic on the
second radio.
https://deej.net/forsale/#narco
IMHO it would be better to mount a second antenna on your plane and
have a dedicated antenna for each radio.
-Dj
On 11/7/19 8:04 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
> Thank you Eric
>
> Is there any automatic coaxial switch?
> Can you please point me out to a suitable coaxial switch (eBay, Amazon,
> mouser, ...).
>
> Cheers
> Carlos
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV - EAA Chapter 87
Currently Flying: Glastar
Previously: Cessna 150 - Glasair 1 FT - Grumman AA1B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | A List Contribution - It's Your Personal Squelch Button... |
There is an automatic "squelch button" of sorts for the Fund Raiser messages.
Here's how it works... As soon as a List member makes a Contribution through
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | LEDs light mystery |
=EF=BB
=EF=BBDear electronics wizards
I have installed, in the baggage compartment of my RV-10, a couple of these L
EDs lights
I want that these lights are lit whenever the baggage door is open, like we h
ave in our cars.
Therefore I connected the lights to the microswitch which already was used t
o indicate that the door is open, in one of the alarm features available in t
he Garmin G3X system.
This alarm feature requires that the microswitch used to indicate the open d
oor is connected through a ground circuit, i.e, this microswitch is a N.O. o
ne, and connects the circuit to ground whenever the baggage door is open.
So, these 2 LEDs lights are permanently connected to +, and get ground only w
hen the microswitch is open, simultaneously when the door is open.
Now, when the baggage door is open, the lights are On, which is good.
The mystery (at least for me, as I am a bit electronics challenged) is that w
hen the door is closed, these LEDs lights are dimmed lit...
This has an explanation, of course, but I don=99t know it.
Why these LEDs lights emit some light, although down dimmed, when they have p
ower in the red wire but no ground in the black wire?
I suppose that this dimmed light represents some battery power consumption, s
o, is there a solution for my problem? Any diode to be put in the ground wir
e?
Thanks
Carlos
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LEDs light mystery |
If the microswitch opens the ground circuit when the door is closed, your
lights are not being grounded through that ground. They are being grounded
through the OTHER wire, the one going to the G3X. I don't know if this can
damage your G3X, but I don't think it is a good idea. You could perhaps put
a diode in the G3X wire, but a better idea might be to keep these two
separate systems separate and put in a second microswitch for the lights.
On Sat, Nov 9, 2019, 11:17 Carlos Trigo wrote:
> =EF=BB
> =EF=BBDear electronics wizards
>
> I have installed, in the baggage compartment of my RV-10, a couple of
> these LEDs lights
>
>
> I want that these lights are lit whenever the baggage door is open, like
> we have in our cars.
> Therefore I connected the lights to the microswitch which already was use
d
> to indicate that the door is open, in one of the alarm features available
> in the Garmin G3X system.
> This alarm feature requires that the microswitch used to indicate the ope
n
> door is connected through a ground circuit, i.e, this microswitch is a N.
O.
> one, and connects the circuit to ground whenever the baggage door is open
.
>
> So, these 2 LEDs lights are permanently connected to +, and get ground
> only when the microswitch is open, simultaneously when the door is open.
>
> Now, when the baggage door is open, the lights are On, which is good.
> The mystery (at least for me, as I am a bit electronics challenged) is
> that when the door is closed, these LEDs lights are dimmed lit...
> This has an explanation, of course, but I don=99t know it.
> Why these LEDs lights emit some light, although down dimmed, when they
> have power in the red wire but no ground in the black wire?
>
> I suppose that this dimmed light represents some battery power
> consumption, so, is there a solution for my problem? Any diode to be put
in
> the ground wire?
>
> Thanks
> Carlos
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LEDs light mystery |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 11/9/2019 1:09 PM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>
> Dear electronics wizards
>
> I have installed, in the baggage compartment of my RV-10, a couple of
> these LEDs lights
>
>
> I want that these lights are lit whenever the baggage door is open,
> like we have in our cars.
> Therefore I connected the lights to the microswitch which already was
> used to indicate that the door is open, in one of the alarm features
> available in the Garmin G3X system.
> This alarm feature requires that the microswitch used to indicate the
> open door is connected through a ground circuit, i.e, this microswitch
> is a N.O. one, and connects the circuit to ground whenever the baggage
> door is open.
>
> So, these 2 LEDs lights are permanently connected to +, and get ground
> only when the microswitch is open, simultaneously when the door is open.
>
> Now, when the baggage door is open, the lights are On, which is good.
> The mystery (at least for me, as I am a bit electronics challenged) is
> that when the door is closed, these LEDs lights are dimmed lit...
> This has an explanation, of course, but I dont know it.
> Why these LEDs lights emit some light, although down dimmed, when they
> have power in the red wire but no ground in the black wire?
>
> I suppose that this dimmed light represents some battery power
> consumption, so, is there a solution for my problem? Any diode to be
> put in the ground wire?
>
> Thanks
> Carlos
>
>
Do they light up with the door open if the EFIS isn't powered up? I'd
bet they don't.
If they don't...
Consider that the EFIS must supply a a voltage to the microswitch
(likely around 5V and very current-limited) in order to detect that the
switch has closed. With the switch open (door closed), and the EFIS
powered up, there's a potential difference between your 12V battery
supply, and the <5V?> source voltage from the EFIS.
Try removing the line to the EFIS temporarily and see if the light goes
out completely when the door is closed.
Of course, I could be wrong. :-)
Just saw Sebastian's post; as he mentioned, a diode in the EFIS sense
line (pointed toward the switch) might work, as long as the diode's
leakage current isn't high enough to light the LED, and its forward
voltage drop isn't high enough to keep the EFIS from seeing switch
closure. a Schottky diode might help that issue.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Pilgrimage to AeroMeca . . . |
Dr. Dee and I pulled into the drive about an
hour ago. After 26 hours of asphalt mania and
an amazing and humbling two hours at the
EAA Museum, we're home in good stead.
The barely teenaged grandson seems to have
behaved himself reasonably. No smoking
ruins . . . no cop cars out front when we
drove up.
Got snowed on in OSH but it's 66 degrees and
sunshine in cow town.
Over all, wouldn't have missed it were it
twice the effort. I'll update you all . . .
tomorrow when the center-line-glaze has cleared . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: LEDs light mystery |
Thanks to Sebastien and to Charlie, for your answers.
I am now considering 2 separate circuits, one for the ground to command the d
oor alarm, and the other to switch the + circuit to the lights.
Does anyone know about a DPST microswitch?
Carlos
Enviado do meu iPhone
> No dia 09/11/2019, =C3-s 22:10, Charlie England e
screveu:
>
> =EF=BB
> On 11/9/2019 1:09 PM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>> =EF=BB
>> =EF=BBDear electronics wizards
>>
>> I have installed, in the baggage compartment of my RV-10, a couple of the
se LEDs lights
>>
>> <11-09255m.jpg>
>>
>> I want that these lights are lit whenever the baggage door is open, like w
e have in our cars.
>> Therefore I connected the lights to the microswitch which already was use
d to indicate that the door is open, in one of the alarm features available i
n the Garmin G3X system.
>> This alarm feature requires that the microswitch used to indicate the ope
n door is connected through a ground circuit, i.e, this microswitch is a N.O
. one, and connects the circuit to ground whenever the baggage door is open.
>>
>> So, these 2 LEDs lights are permanently connected to +, and get ground on
ly when the microswitch is open, simultaneously when the door is open.
>>
>> Now, when the baggage door is open, the lights are On, which is good.
>> The mystery (at least for me, as I am a bit electronics challenged) is th
at when the door is closed, these LEDs lights are dimmed lit...
>> This has an explanation, of course, but I don=99t know it.
>> Why these LEDs lights emit some light, although down dimmed, when they ha
ve power in the red wire but no ground in the black wire?
>>
>> I suppose that this dimmed light represents some battery power consumptio
n, so, is there a solution for my problem? Any diode to be put in the ground
wire?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Carlos
>>
>>
> Do they light up with the door open if the EFIS isn't powered up? I'd bet t
hey don't.
> If they don't...
> Consider that the EFIS must supply a a voltage to the microswitch (likely a
round 5V and very current-limited) in order to detect that the switch has cl
osed. With the switch open (door closed), and the EFIS powered up, there's a
potential difference between your 12V battery supply, and the <5V?> source
voltage from the EFIS.
>
> Try removing the line to the EFIS temporarily and see if the light goes ou
t completely when the door is closed.
>
> Of course, I could be wrong. :-)
>
> Just saw Sebastian's post; as he mentioned, a diode in the EFIS sense line
(pointed toward the switch) might work, as long as the diode's leakage curr
ent isn't high enough to light the LED, and its forward voltage drop isn't h
igh enough to keep the EFIS from seeing switch closure. a Schottky diode mig
ht help that issue.
>
> Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LEDs light mystery |
On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 6:35 AM Carlos Trigo wrote:
> Thanks to Sebastien and to Charlie, for your answers.
>
> I am now considering 2 separate circuits, one for the ground to command
> the door alarm, and the other to switch the + circuit to the lights.
> Does anyone know about a DPST microswitch?
>
> Carlos
>
> Enviado do meu iPhone
>
> No dia 09/11/2019, =C3-s 22:10, Charlie England
> escreveu:
>
> =EF=BB
> On 11/9/2019 1:09 PM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
> =EF=BBDear electronics wizards
>
> I have installed, in the baggage compartment of my RV-10, a couple of
> these LEDs lights
>
> <11-09255m.jpg>
>
> I want that these lights are lit whenever the baggage door is open, like
> we have in our cars.
> Therefore I connected the lights to the microswitch which already was use
d
> to indicate that the door is open, in one of the alarm features available
> in the Garmin G3X system.
> This alarm feature requires that the microswitch used to indicate the ope
n
> door is connected through a ground circuit, i.e, this microswitch is a N.
O.
> one, and connects the circuit to ground whenever the baggage door is open
.
>
> So, these 2 LEDs lights are permanently connected to +, and get ground
> only when the microswitch is open, simultaneously when the door is open.
>
> Now, when the baggage door is open, the lights are On, which is good.
> The mystery (at least for me, as I am a bit electronics challenged) is
> that when the door is closed, these LEDs lights are dimmed lit...
> This has an explanation, of course, but I don=99t know it.
> Why these LEDs lights emit some light, although down dimmed, when they
> have power in the red wire but no ground in the black wire?
>
> I suppose that this dimmed light represents some battery power
> consumption, so, is there a solution for my problem? Any diode to be put
in
> the ground wire?
>
> Thanks
> Carlos
>
>
> Do they light up with the door open if the EFIS isn't powered up? I'd bet
> they don't.
> If they don't...
> Consider that the EFIS must supply a a voltage to the microswitch (likely
> around 5V and very current-limited) in order to detect that the switch ha
s
> closed. With the switch open (door closed), and the EFIS powered up,
> there's a potential difference between your 12V battery supply, and the
> <5V?> source voltage from the EFIS.
>
> Try removing the line to the EFIS temporarily and see if the light goes
> out completely when the door is closed.
>
> Of course, I could be wrong. :-)
>
> Just saw Sebastian's post; as he mentioned, a diode in the EFIS sense lin
e
> (pointed toward the switch) might work, as long as the diode's leakage
> current isn't high enough to light the LED, and its forward voltage drop
> isn't high enough to keep the EFIS from seeing switch closure. a Schottky
> diode might help that issue.
>
> Charlie
>
> Well, according to 'the google', there are options. Here are one company'
s
selections. DPDT are actually cheaper than DPST:
https://www.newark.com/w/c/switches-relays/switches/microswitch-snap-action
-switches?contact-configuration=dpdt|dpdt-no|dpst|dpst-no
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LEDs light mystery |
One microswitch with two poles! Of course. Simple once you think of it :(.
On Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 06:10 Charlie England wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 6:35 AM Carlos Trigo
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks to Sebastien and to Charlie, for your answers.
>>
>> I am now considering 2 separate circuits, one for the ground to command
>> the door alarm, and the other to switch the + circuit to the lights.
>> Does anyone know about a DPST microswitch?
>>
>> Carlos
>>
>> Enviado do meu iPhone
>>
>> No dia 09/11/2019, =C3-s 22:10, Charlie England
>> escreveu:
>>
>> =EF=BB
>> On 11/9/2019 1:09 PM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>>
>> =EF=BB
>> =EF=BBDear electronics wizards
>>
>> I have installed, in the baggage compartment of my RV-10, a couple of
>> these LEDs lights
>>
>> <11-09255m.jpg>
>>
>> I want that these lights are lit whenever the baggage door is open, like
>> we have in our cars.
>> Therefore I connected the lights to the microswitch which already was
>> used to indicate that the door is open, in one of the alarm features
>> available in the Garmin G3X system.
>> This alarm feature requires that the microswitch used to indicate the
>> open door is connected through a ground circuit, i.e, this microswitch i
s a
>> N.O. one, and connects the circuit to ground whenever the baggage door i
s
>> open.
>>
>> So, these 2 LEDs lights are permanently connected to +, and get ground
>> only when the microswitch is open, simultaneously when the door is open.
>>
>> Now, when the baggage door is open, the lights are On, which is good.
>> The mystery (at least for me, as I am a bit electronics challenged) is
>> that when the door is closed, these LEDs lights are dimmed lit...
>> This has an explanation, of course, but I don=99t know it.
>> Why these LEDs lights emit some light, although down dimmed, when they
>> have power in the red wire but no ground in the black wire?
>>
>> I suppose that this dimmed light represents some battery power
>> consumption, so, is there a solution for my problem? Any diode to be put
in
>> the ground wire?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Carlos
>>
>>
>> Do they light up with the door open if the EFIS isn't powered up? I'd be
t
>> they don't.
>> If they don't...
>> Consider that the EFIS must supply a a voltage to the microswitch (likel
y
>> around 5V and very current-limited) in order to detect that the switch h
as
>> closed. With the switch open (door closed), and the EFIS powered up,
>> there's a potential difference between your 12V battery supply, and the
>> <5V?> source voltage from the EFIS.
>>
>> Try removing the line to the EFIS temporarily and see if the light goes
>> out completely when the door is closed.
>>
>> Of course, I could be wrong. :-)
>>
>> Just saw Sebastian's post; as he mentioned, a diode in the EFIS sense
>> line (pointed toward the switch) might work, as long as the diode's leak
age
>> current isn't high enough to light the LED, and its forward voltage drop
>> isn't high enough to keep the EFIS from seeing switch closure. a Schottk
y
>> diode might help that issue.
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>> Well, according to 'the google', there are options. Here are one
> company's selections. DPDT are actually cheaper than DPST:
>
> https://www.newark.com/w/c/switches-relays/switches/microswitch-snap-acti
on-switches?contact-configuration=dpdt|dpdt-no|dpst|dpst-no
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LEDs light mystery |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
The attached pictures are my interpretation of Carlos' description of the circuit.
In the top circuit, I have inserted a diode as suggested by others.
That is the easiest solution. A 1N4148 should work.
The bottom circuit requires reversing the switch logic and EFIS input logic
which should be easier than purchasing a new switch and installing it.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492666#492666
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/baggage_door_298.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: LEDs light mystery |
???
If you mean 2 microswitches, there is no space for them...
> No dia 10/11/2019, =C3-s 15:00, Sebastien escreveu:
>
> =EF=BB
> One microswitch with two poles! Of course. Simple once you think of it :(.
>
>> On Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 06:10 Charlie England wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 6:35 AM Carlos Trigo wro
te:
>>> Thanks to Sebastien and to Charlie, for your answers.
>>>
>>> I am now considering 2 separate circuits, one for the ground to command t
he door alarm, and the other to switch the + circuit to the lights.
>>> Does anyone know about a DPST microswitch?
>>>
>>> Carlos
>>>
>>> Enviado do meu iPhone
>>>
>>>> No dia 09/11/2019, =C3-s 22:10, Charlie England escreveu:
>>>>
>>>> =EF=BB
>>>> On 11/9/2019 1:09 PM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>>>>> =EF=BB
>>>>> =EF=BBDear electronics wizards
>>>>>
>>>>> I have installed, in the baggage compartment of my RV-10, a couple of t
hese LEDs lights
>>>>>
>>>>> <11-09255m.jpg>
>>>>>
>>>>> I want that these lights are lit whenever the baggage door is open, li
ke we have in our cars.
>>>>> Therefore I connected the lights to the microswitch which already was u
sed to indicate that the door is open, in one of the alarm features availabl
e in the Garmin G3X system.
>>>>> This alarm feature requires that the microswitch used to indicate the o
pen door is connected through a ground circuit, i.e, this microswitch is a N
.O. one, and connects the circuit to ground whenever the baggage door is ope
n.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, these 2 LEDs lights are permanently connected to +, and get ground
only when the microswitch is open, simultaneously when the door is open.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, when the baggage door is open, the lights are On, which is good.
>>>>> The mystery (at least for me, as I am a bit electronics challenged) is
that when the door is closed, these LEDs lights are dimmed lit...
>>>>> This has an explanation, of course, but I don=99t know it.
>>>>> Why these LEDs lights emit some light, although down dimmed, when they
have power in the red wire but no ground in the black wire?
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose that this dimmed light represents some battery power consump
tion, so, is there a solution for my problem? Any diode to be put in the gro
und wire?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Carlos
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Do they light up with the door open if the EFIS isn't powered up? I'd b
et they don't.
>>>> If they don't...
>>>> Consider that the EFIS must supply a a voltage to the microswitch (like
ly around 5V and very current-limited) in order to detect that the switch ha
s closed. With the switch open (door closed), and the EFIS powered up, there
's a potential difference between your 12V battery supply, and the <5V?> so
urce voltage from the EFIS.
>>>>
>>>> Try removing the line to the EFIS temporarily and see if the light goes
out completely when the door is closed.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, I could be wrong. :-)
>>>>
>>>> Just saw Sebastian's post; as he mentioned, a diode in the EFIS sense l
ine (pointed toward the switch) might work, as long as the diode's leakage c
urrent isn't high enough to light the LED, and its forward voltage drop isn'
t high enough to keep the EFIS from seeing switch closure. a Schottky diode m
ight help that issue.
>>>>
>>>> Charlie
>> Well, according to 'the google', there are options. Here are one company'
s selections. DPDT are actually cheaper than DPST:
>> https://www.newark.com/w/c/switches-relays/switches/microswitch-snap-acti
on-switches?contact-configuration=dpdt|dpdt-no|dpst|dpst-no
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LEDs light mystery |
Joe, check your diagram again.=C2- In option two, it looks like you stil
l changed the switch and forgot to swap the circuit polarity; it shows a SP
DT, and it's still switching the EFIS input to ground.
Is this what you intended, using the existing switch?
Cheers,
Eric
The attached pictures are my interpretation of Carlos' description of the c
ircuit.
In the top circuit, I have inserted a diode as suggested by others.
That is the easiest solution.=C2- A 1N4148 should work.
The bottom circuit requires reversing the switch logic and EFIS input logic
which should be easier than purchasing a new switch and installing it.
--------
Joe Gores
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LEDs light mystery |
I did mean that Carlos, but only because I wasn't smart enough to think of
a DP microswitch.
On Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 08:19 Carlos Trigo wrote:
> ???
>
> If you mean 2 microswitches, there is no space for them...
>
> No dia 10/11/2019, =C3-s 15:00, Sebastien escreveu:
>
> =EF=BB
> One microswitch with two poles! Of course. Simple once you think of it :(
.
>
> On Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 06:10 Charlie England wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 6:35 AM Carlos Trigo
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks to Sebastien and to Charlie, for your answers.
>>>
>>> I am now considering 2 separate circuits, one for the ground to command
>>> the door alarm, and the other to switch the + circuit to the lights.
>>> Does anyone know about a DPST microswitch?
>>>
>>> Carlos
>>>
>>> Enviado do meu iPhone
>>>
>>> No dia 09/11/2019, =C3-s 22:10, Charlie England
>>> escreveu:
>>>
>>> =EF=BB
>>> On 11/9/2019 1:09 PM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>>>
>>> =EF=BB
>>> =EF=BBDear electronics wizards
>>>
>>> I have installed, in the baggage compartment of my RV-10, a couple of
>>> these LEDs lights
>>>
>>> <11-09255m.jpg>
>>>
>>> I want that these lights are lit whenever the baggage door is open, lik
e
>>> we have in our cars.
>>> Therefore I connected the lights to the microswitch which already was
>>> used to indicate that the door is open, in one of the alarm features
>>> available in the Garmin G3X system.
>>> This alarm feature requires that the microswitch used to indicate the
>>> open door is connected through a ground circuit, i.e, this microswitch
is a
>>> N.O. one, and connects the circuit to ground whenever the baggage door
is
>>> open.
>>>
>>> So, these 2 LEDs lights are permanently connected to +, and get ground
>>> only when the microswitch is open, simultaneously when the door is open
.
>>>
>>> Now, when the baggage door is open, the lights are On, which is good.
>>> The mystery (at least for me, as I am a bit electronics challenged) is
>>> that when the door is closed, these LEDs lights are dimmed lit...
>>> This has an explanation, of course, but I don=99t know it.
>>> Why these LEDs lights emit some light, although down dimmed, when they
>>> have power in the red wire but no ground in the black wire?
>>>
>>> I suppose that this dimmed light represents some battery power
>>> consumption, so, is there a solution for my problem? Any diode to be pu
t in
>>> the ground wire?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Carlos
>>>
>>>
>>> Do they light up with the door open if the EFIS isn't powered up? I'd
>>> bet they don't.
>>> If they don't...
>>> Consider that the EFIS must supply a a voltage to the microswitch
>>> (likely around 5V and very current-limited) in order to detect that the
>>> switch has closed. With the switch open (door closed), and the EFIS pow
ered
>>> up, there's a potential difference between your 12V battery supply, and
the
>>> <5V?> source voltage from the EFIS.
>>>
>>> Try removing the line to the EFIS temporarily and see if the light goes
>>> out completely when the door is closed.
>>>
>>> Of course, I could be wrong. :-)
>>>
>>> Just saw Sebastian's post; as he mentioned, a diode in the EFIS sense
>>> line (pointed toward the switch) might work, as long as the diode's lea
kage
>>> current isn't high enough to light the LED, and its forward voltage dro
p
>>> isn't high enough to keep the EFIS from seeing switch closure. a Schott
ky
>>> diode might help that issue.
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>>
>>> Well, according to 'the google', there are options. Here are one
>> company's selections. DPDT are actually cheaper than DPST:
>>
>> https://www.newark.com/w/c/switches-relays/switches/microswitch-snap-act
ion-switches?contact-configuration=dpdt|dpdt-no|dpst|dpst-no
>>
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LEDs light mystery |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Eric, I drew the circuit as I intended. I assumed that the existing switch is
SPDT and that the EFIS input is currently connected to the normally open
switch terminal that gets grounded when the door is open. I suggested that
the EFIS input wire be moved to the other switch terminal so that the EFIS
input is always grounded except when the door is open. That will require
going into the EFIS setup menu and changing the logic so that the alarm will
sound when the EFIS input is not grounded. If I made a mistake, let me
know. It is confusing when talking about a switch opening and closing, and
also talking about a door opening and closing, and they might not both be
open at the same time.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492673#492673
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: LEDs light mystery |
Charlie
A DPDT would not suit my need, it has to be a DPST.
And I am not finding a DPST - N.O., which one is it?
Carlos
> No dia 10/11/2019, =C3-s 14:12, Charlie England e
screveu:
>
> =EF=BB
>
>
>> On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 6:35 AM Carlos Trigo wrot
e:
>> Thanks to Sebastien and to Charlie, for your answers.
>>
>> I am now considering 2 separate circuits, one for the ground to command t
he door alarm, and the other to switch the + circuit to the lights.
>> Does anyone know about a DPST microswitch?
>>
>> Carlos
>>
>> Enviado do meu iPhone
>>
>>> No dia 09/11/2019, =C3-s 22:10, Charlie England
escreveu:
>>>
>>> =EF=BB
>>> On 11/9/2019 1:09 PM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>>>> =EF=BB
>>>> =EF=BBDear electronics wizards
>>>>
>>>> I have installed, in the baggage compartment of my RV-10, a couple of t
hese LEDs lights
>>>>
>>>> <11-09255m.jpg>
>>>>
>>>> I want that these lights are lit whenever the baggage door is open, lik
e we have in our cars.
>>>> Therefore I connected the lights to the microswitch which already was u
sed to indicate that the door is open, in one of the alarm features availabl
e in the Garmin G3X system.
>>>> This alarm feature requires that the microswitch used to indicate the o
pen door is connected through a ground circuit, i.e, this microswitch is a N
.O. one, and connects the circuit to ground whenever the baggage door is ope
n.
>>>>
>>>> So, these 2 LEDs lights are permanently connected to +, and get ground o
nly when the microswitch is open, simultaneously when the door is open.
>>>>
>>>> Now, when the baggage door is open, the lights are On, which is good.
>>>> The mystery (at least for me, as I am a bit electronics challenged) is t
hat when the door is closed, these LEDs lights are dimmed lit...
>>>> This has an explanation, of course, but I don=99t know it.
>>>> Why these LEDs lights emit some light, although down dimmed, when they h
ave power in the red wire but no ground in the black wire?
>>>>
>>>> I suppose that this dimmed light represents some battery power consumpt
ion, so, is there a solution for my problem? Any diode to be put in the grou
nd wire?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Carlos
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Do they light up with the door open if the EFIS isn't powered up? I'd be
t they don't.
>>> If they don't...
>>> Consider that the EFIS must supply a a voltage to the microswitch (likel
y around 5V and very current-limited) in order to detect that the switch has
closed. With the switch open (door closed), and the EFIS powered up, there'
s a potential difference between your 12V battery supply, and the <5V?> sou
rce voltage from the EFIS.
>>>
>>> Try removing the line to the EFIS temporarily and see if the light goes o
ut completely when the door is closed.
>>>
>>> Of course, I could be wrong. :-)
>>>
>>> Just saw Sebastian's post; as he mentioned, a diode in the EFIS sense li
ne (pointed toward the switch) might work, as long as the diode's leakage cu
rrent isn't high enough to light the LED, and its forward voltage drop isn't
high enough to keep the EFIS from seeing switch closure. a Schottky diode m
ight help that issue.
>>>
>>> Charlie
> Well, according to 'the google', there are options. Here are one company's
selections. DPDT are actually cheaper than DPST:
> https://www.newark.com/w/c/switches-relays/switches/microswitch-snap-actio
n-switches?contact-configuration=dpdt|dpdt-no|dpst|dpst-no
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: LEDs light mystery |
I will try option One.
Although I am more inclined to use 2 separate circuits.
Thanks
Carlos
Enviado do meu iPhone
> No dia 10/11/2019, s 15:13, user9253 escreveu:
>
>
> The attached pictures are my interpretation of Carlos' description of the circuit.
> In the top circuit, I have inserted a diode as suggested by others.
> That is the easiest solution. A 1N4148 should work.
> The bottom circuit requires reversing the switch logic and EFIS input logic
> which should be easier than purchasing a new switch and installing it.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492666#492666
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/baggage_door_298.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LEDs light mystery |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 11/10/2019 11:44 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
> Charlie
>
> A DPDT would not suit my need, it has to be a DPST.
> And I am not finding a DPST - N.O., which one is it?
>
> Carlos
>
>
>> No dia 10/11/2019, s 14:12, Charlie England
>> escreveu:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 6:35 AM Carlos Trigo > > wrote:
>>
>> Thanks to Sebastien and to Charlie, for your answers.
>>
>> I am now considering 2 separate circuits, one for the ground to
>> command the door alarm, and the other to switch the + circuit to
>> the lights.
>> Does anyone know about a DPST microswitch?
>>
>> Carlos
>>
>> Enviado do meu iPhone
>>
>>> No dia 09/11/2019, s 22:10, Charlie England
>>> > escreveu:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/9/2019 1:09 PM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear electronics wizards
>>>>
>>>> I have installed, in the baggage compartment of my RV-10, a
>>>> couple of these LEDs lights
>>>>
>>>> <11-09255m.jpg>
>>>>
>>>> I want that these lights are lit whenever the baggage door is
>>>> open, like we have in our cars.
>>>> Therefore I connected the lights to the microswitch which
>>>> already was used to indicate that the door is open, in one of
>>>> the alarm features available in the Garmin G3X system.
>>>> This alarm feature requires that the microswitch used to
>>>> indicate the open door is connected through a ground circuit,
>>>> i.e, this microswitch is a N.O. one, and connects the circuit
>>>> to ground whenever the baggage door is open.
>>>>
>>>> So, these 2 LEDs lights are permanently connected to +, and get
>>>> ground only when the microswitch is open, simultaneously when
>>>> the door is open.
>>>>
>>>> Now, when the baggage door is open, the lights are On, which is
>>>> good.
>>>> The mystery (at least for me, as I am a bit electronics
>>>> challenged) is that when the door is closed, these LEDs lights
>>>> are dimmed lit...
>>>> This has an explanation, of course, but I dont know it.
>>>> Why these LEDs lights emit some light, although down dimmed,
>>>> when they have power in the red wire but no ground in the black
>>>> wire?
>>>>
>>>> I suppose that this dimmed light represents some battery power
>>>> consumption, so, is there a solution for my problem? Any diode
>>>> to be put in the ground wire?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Carlos
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Do they light up with the door open if the EFIS isn't powered
>>> up? I'd bet they don't.
>>> If they don't...
>>> Consider that the EFIS must supply a a voltage to the
>>> microswitch (likely around 5V and very current-limited) in order
>>> to detect that the switch has closed. With the switch open (door
>>> closed), and the EFIS powered up, there's a potential difference
>>> between your 12V battery supply, and the <5V?> source voltage
>>> from the EFIS.
>>>
>>> Try removing the line to the EFIS temporarily and see if the
>>> light goes out completely when the door is closed.
>>>
>>> Of course, I could be wrong. :-)
>>>
>>> Just saw Sebastian's post; as he mentioned, a diode in the EFIS
>>> sense line (pointed toward the switch) might work, as long as
>>> the diode's leakage current isn't high enough to light the LED,
>>> and its forward voltage drop isn't high enough to keep the EFIS
>>> from seeing switch closure. a Schottky diode might help that issue.
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>
>> Well, according to 'the google', there are options. Here are one
>> company's selections. DPDT are actually cheaper than DPST:
>> https://www.newark.com/w/c/switches-relays/switches/microswitch-snap-action-switches?contact-configuration=dpdt|dpdt-no|dpst|dpst-no
>>
A DPDT is a DPST, if you ignore two of the terminals....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gerald Farek <gfarek(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LEDs light mystery |
Check Mouser 706-32-01, will it work for you? Jerry
Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 10, 2019, at 12:02 PM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>
> =EF=BBCharlie
>
>> A DPDT would not suit my need, it has to be a DPST.
>> And I am not finding a DPST - N.O., which one is it?
>>
>> Carlos
>>
>>
>>
>>> No dia 10/11/2019, =C3-s 14:12, Charlie England
escreveu:
>>>
>> =EF=BB
>>
>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 6:35 AM Carlos Trigo wro
te:
>>> Thanks to Sebastien and to Charlie, for your answers.
>>>
>>> I am now considering 2 separate circuits, one for the ground to command t
he door alarm, and the other to switch the + circuit to the lights.
>>> Does anyone know about a DPST microswitch?
>>>
>>> Carlos
>>>
>>> Enviado do meu iPhone
>>>
>>>> No dia 09/11/2019, =C3-s 22:10, Charlie England escreveu:
>>>>
>>>> =EF=BB
>>>> On 11/9/2019 1:09 PM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>>>>> =EF=BB
>>>>> =EF=BBDear electronics wizards
>>>>>
>>>>> I have installed, in the baggage compartment of my RV-10, a couple of t
hese LEDs lights
>>>>>
>>>>> <11-09255m.jpg>
>>>>>
>>>>> I want that these lights are lit whenever the baggage door is open, li
ke we have in our cars.
>>>>> Therefore I connected the lights to the microswitch which already was u
sed to indicate that the door is open, in one of the alarm features availabl
e in the Garmin G3X system.
>>>>> This alarm feature requires that the microswitch used to indicate the o
pen door is connected through a ground circuit, i.e, this microswitch is a N
.O. one, and connects the circuit to ground whenever the baggage door is ope
n.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, these 2 LEDs lights are permanently connected to +, and get ground
only when the microswitch is open, simultaneously when the door is open.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, when the baggage door is open, the lights are On, which is good.
>>>>> The mystery (at least for me, as I am a bit electronics challenged) is
that when the door is closed, these LEDs lights are dimmed lit...
>>>>> This has an explanation, of course, but I don=99t know it.
>>>>> Why these LEDs lights emit some light, although down dimmed, when they
have power in the red wire but no ground in the black wire?
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose that this dimmed light represents some battery power consump
tion, so, is there a solution for my problem? Any diode to be put in the gro
und wire?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Carlos
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Do they light up with the door open if the EFIS isn't powered up? I'd b
et they don't.
>>>> If they don't...
>>>> Consider that the EFIS must supply a a voltage to the microswitch (like
ly around 5V and very current-limited) in order to detect that the switch ha
s closed. With the switch open (door closed), and the EFIS powered up, there
's a potential difference between your 12V battery supply, and the <5V?> so
urce voltage from the EFIS.
>>>>
>>>> Try removing the line to the EFIS temporarily and see if the light goes
out completely when the door is closed.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, I could be wrong. :-)
>>>>
>>>> Just saw Sebastian's post; as he mentioned, a diode in the EFIS sense l
ine (pointed toward the switch) might work, as long as the diode's leakage c
urrent isn't high enough to light the LED, and its forward voltage drop isn'
t high enough to keep the EFIS from seeing switch closure. a Schottky diode m
ight help that issue.
>>>>
>>>> Charlie
>> Well, according to 'the google', there are options. Here are one company'
s selections. DPDT are actually cheaper than DPST:
>> https://www.newark.com/w/c/switches-relays/switches/microswitch-snap-acti
on-switches?contact-configuration=dpdt|dpdt-no|dpst|dpst-no
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LEDs light mystery |
> Eric, I drew the circuit as I intended...
OK Joe, I see my error now. I misinterpreted your sentence about changing the
logic of the EFIS input. My brain read that as changing it from a switch-pulls-low
to a switch-pulls-high condition, but you meant to invert the way the EFIS
reacts to the existing switch-pulls-low input. Makes sense now.
I suppose my drawing could be a third option, if the EFIS can be configured to
accept a high input to activate the door annunciation.
Anyway, lots of options. Sorry for muddying the water...
Eric
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LEDs light mystery |
>>I suppose that this dimmed light represents some battery power
>>consumption, so, is there a solution for my problem? Any diode to
>>be put in the ground wire?
Led's will produce light at VERY tiny currents. I suspect
the current present in the door-closed state is the
tiny drain presented by the EFIS input circuit.
I have an LED lamp in the ceiling of a bathroom that
will not quite go out . . . the wiring between the
controlling switch and the lamp fixture is a bundle
of multiple circuits. I'm pretty sure that I'm seeing
some CAPACITIVE coupling to the floating lead that
carries normal ON-voltage to the fixture. It's tiny
to be sure but leds aren't picky. The room has to be
totally dark to witness the effect but it's there.
In your case, you could put a multimeter in series
with the supply lead to the fixture. I suspect it's
very low and may not represent a serious performance
issue for the battery. Some cars have tiny parasitic
loads to keep things like door opening receivers
hot.
You can get rid of the dim light by simply adding
a load resistor across the fixture . . . low enough
resistance to drop voltage across the fixture to
less than 2 volts or so . . . the light will then
go out.
This will NOT make your parasitic current go away,
so you'll still need to investigate its significance
with respect to battery life.
If you want the easiest way to make it go away
then put the microswitch in the SUPPLY lead to
the baggage compartment light and then set
your efis input to active HI for DOOR
OPEN annunciation.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LEDs light mystery |
>>I suppose that this dimmed light represents some battery power
>>consumption, so, is there a solution for my problem? Any diode to
>>be put in the ground wire?
Led's will produce light at VERY tiny currents. I suspect
the current present in the door-closed state is the
tiny drain presented by the EFIS input circuit.
I have an LED lamp in the ceiling of a bathroom that
will not quite go out . . . the wiring between the
controlling switch and the lamp fixture is a bundle
of multiple circuits. I'm pretty sure that I'm seeing
some CAPACITIVE coupling to the floating lead that
carries normal ON-voltage to the fixture. It's tiny
to be sure but leds aren't picky. The room has to be
totally dark to witness the effect but it's there.
In your case, you could put a multimeter in series
with the supply lead to the fixture. I suspect it's
very low and may not represent a serious performance
issue for the battery. Some cars have tiny parasitic
loads to keep things like door opening receivers
hot.
You can get rid of the dim light by simply adding
a load resistor across the fixture . . . low enough
resistance to drop voltage across the fixture to
less than 2 volts or so . . . the light will then
go out.
This will NOT make your parasitic current go away,
so you'll still need to investigate its significance
with respect to battery life.
If you want the easiest way to make it go away
then put the microswitch in the SUPPLY lead to
the baggage compartment light and then set
your efis input to active HI for DOOR
OPEN annunciation.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LEDs light mystery |
>>I suppose that this dimmed light represents some battery power
>>consumption, so, is there a solution for my problem? Any diode to
>>be put in the ground wire?
Led's will produce light at VERY tiny currents. I suspect
the current present in the door-closed state is the
tiny drain presented by the EFIS input circuit.
I have an LED lamp in the ceiling of a bathroom that
will not quite go out . . . the wiring between the
controlling switch and the lamp fixture is a bundle
of multiple circuits. I'm pretty sure that I'm seeing
some CAPACITIVE coupling to the floating lead that
carries normal ON-voltage to the fixture. It's tiny
to be sure but leds aren't picky. The room has to be
totally dark to witness the effect but it's there.
In your case, you could put a multimeter in series
with the supply lead to the fixture. I suspect it's
very low and may not represent a serious performance
issue for the battery. Some cars have tiny parasitic
loads to keep things like door opening receivers
hot.
You can get rid of the dim light by simply adding
a load resistor across the fixture . . . low enough
resistance to drop voltage across the fixture to
less than 2 volts or so . . . the light will then
go out.
This will NOT make your parasitic current go away,
so you'll still need to investigate its significance
with respect to battery life.
If you want the easiest way to make it go away
then put the microswitch in the SUPPLY lead to
the baggage compartment light and then set
your efis input to active HI for DOOR
OPEN annunciation.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LEDs light mystery |
>>I suppose that this dimmed light represents some battery power
>>consumption, so, is there a solution for my problem? Any diode to
>>be put in the ground wire?
Led's will produce light at VERY tiny currents. I suspect
the current present in the door-closed state is the
tiny drain presented by the EFIS input circuit.
I have an LED lamp in the ceiling of a bathroom that
will not quite go out . . . the wiring between the
controlling switch and the lamp fixture is a bundle
of multiple circuits. I'm pretty sure that I'm seeing
some CAPACITIVE coupling to the floating lead that
carries normal ON-voltage to the fixture. It's tiny
to be sure but leds aren't picky. The room has to be
totally dark to witness the effect but it's there.
In your case, you could put a multimeter in series
with the supply lead to the fixture. I suspect it's
very low and may not represent a serious performance
issue for the battery. Some cars have tiny parasitic
loads to keep things like door opening receivers
hot.
You can get rid of the dim light by simply adding
a load resistor across the fixture . . . low enough
resistance to drop voltage across the fixture to
less than 2 volts or so . . . the light will then
go out.
This will NOT make your parasitic current go away,
so you'll still need to investigate its significance
with respect to battery life.
If you want the easiest way to make it go away
then put the microswitch in the SUPPLY lead to
the baggage compartment light and then set
your efis input to active HI for DOOR
OPEN annunciation.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | [PLEASE READ] Why I Have A Fund Raiser... |
Since the beginning, the Matronics List and Forum experience has been free from
advertising. I have been approached by fair number of vendors wanting to tap
into the large volume of activity across the various lists hosted here, but have
always flatly refused. Everywhere you go on the Internet these days, a user
is pummeled with flashing banners and videos and ads for crap that they don't
want. Yahoo, Google and that ilk are not "free". The user must constantly
endure their barrage of commercialism thrust into their face at an ever increasing
rate. Enough is enough, and the Lists at Matronics choose not to succumb
to that.
That being said, running a service of this size is not "free". It costs a lot
of money to maintain the hardware, pay for the electricity, Commercial-greade
Internet Connection, air conditioning, maintenance contracts, etc, etc. etc.
I choose to hold a PBS-like fund raiser each year during the month of November
where I simply send out a short email every other day asking the members to make
a small contribution to support the operation. That being said, that contribution
is completely voluntary and non-compulsory. Many members choose not
to contribute and that's fine.
However, a very modest percentage of the members do choose to make a contribution
and it is that financial support that keeps the Lists running. And that's
it. To my way of thinking, it is a much more pleasant way of maintaining the
Lists and Forums. The other 11 months of the year, you don't see a single advertisement
or request for support. That's refreshing and that is a List and Forum
that I want to belong to. I think other people feel the same way.
Won't you please take a minute to make your Contribution today and support these
Lists?
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, drop a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
USA
Thank you for your support!
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8=B4=D8=B1=D9=83=D8=A9?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8=B2=D9=87=D8=B1=D8=A9?= |
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8=A7=D9=84=D8=AE=D9=84=D9=8A=D8=AC?
| From: | "shimaashaker" <shimaashaker6(at)gmail.com> |
.
(https://zahrat-khaleej.com/category/%D8%AE%D8%AF%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%81/)
(https://zahrat-khaleej.com/%d8%b4%d8%b1%d9%83%d8%a9-%d8%aa%d9%86%d8%b8%d9%8a%d9%81-%d9%81%d9%8a-%d8%a7%d9%84%d9%88%d8%b1%d9%82%d8%a7-%d8%a8%d8%af%d8%a8%d9%8a/)
(https://zahrat-khaleej.com/al-mizhar-cleaning-company/)
(https://zahrat-khaleej.com/cleaning-company-in-rashidiya/)
(https://zahrat-khaleej.com/cleaning-company-in-khawaneej/)
(https://zahrat-khaleej.com/cleaning-company-in-mirdif/)
(https://zahrat-khaleej.com/cleaning-company-in-jumeirah/)
(https://zahrat-khaleej.com/cleaning-company-in-kalba/)
(https://zahrat-khaleej.com/cleaning-company-in-rumakia/)
(https://zahrat-khaleej.com/cleaning-company-in-the-cliff/)
(https://zahrat-khaleej.com/cleaning-company-in-malihah/)
(https://zahrat-khaleej.com/cleaning-company-in-nad-al-hamr/)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492770#492770
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: LEDs light mystery |
On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 11:53 AM Carlos Trigo wrote:
> Charlie
>
> A DPDT would not suit my need, it has to be a DPST.
> And I am not finding a DPST - N.O., which one is it?
>
> Carlos
>
>
> Carlos,
I thought about my previous answer ('a DPDT is a DPST if you ignore 2
terminals') and realized that it might not have made sense if you don't
have an electrical circuits background with the switches. It's a true
statement, but might need more explanation.
A DPST switch controls 2 circuits, and either opens or closes both at the
same time, as you know.
A DPDT can do the same task. The 'DT' just means that the 'common' terminal
will be connected to (for example) terminal one, or terminal two, depending
on the position of the switch. Take a look at the tutorial below, and
scroll down to the DPDT description. If you make your connections from the
EFIS to '1P' and the LED to '2P', and connect both the '1T' terminals to
ground, leaving both '2T' terminals with no connection, the switch
functions as a DPST switch.
Hope that helps,
Charlie
https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/switch-basics/all
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: LEDs light mystery |
Google images for "switch dpst"
https://www.google.com/imghp?hl=en&tab=wi&ogbl
> On Nov 12, 2019, at 10:16 AM, Charlie England wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 11:53 AM Carlos Trigo wrote:
> Charlie
>
> A DPDT would not suit my need, it has to be a DPST.
> And I am not finding a DPST - N.O., which one is it?
>
> Carlos
>
>>
> Carlos,
> I thought about my previous answer ('a DPDT is a DPST if you ignore 2 terminals')
and realized that it might not have made sense if you don't have an electrical
circuits background with the switches. It's a true statement, but might
need more explanation.
> A DPST switch controls 2 circuits, and either opens or closes both at the same
time, as you know.
>
> A DPDT can do the same task. The 'DT' just means that the 'common' terminal will
be connected to (for example) terminal one, or terminal two, depending on
the position of the switch. Take a look at the tutorial below, and scroll down
to the DPDT description. If you make your connections from the EFIS to '1P' and
the LED to '2P', and connect both the '1T' terminals to ground, leaving both
'2T' terminals with no connection, the switch functions as a DPST switch.
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> Charlie
>
> https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/switch-basics/all
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | LEDs light mystery (Option 2) |
At 12:14 PM 11/10/2019, you wrote:
>On 11/10/2019 11:44 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>>Charlie=C2
>>
>>A DPDT would not suit my need, it has to be a DPST.
>>And I am not finding a DPST - N.O., which one is it?
>>
>>Carlos
Option 2. See
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Lighting/Baggage%20Door%20Lite.pdf
This configuration eliminates the 'dim led'
condition while satisfying the EFIS input
requirement using a single switch.
For general rundown on switch nomenclature
and schematic symbols, see chapter 11 in:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Book/AEC_R12A.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Make Sure You're Listed! List of Contributors Coming |
Soon!
Dear Listers,
There's just a few more days left in this year's List Fund Raiser and that means
the List of Contributors (LOC) is just around the corner! In December I post
a list of everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists.
Its my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their
appreciation for the Lists.
Won't you take minute and assure that your name is on the upcoming LOC? Tell others
that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists
is fast and easy using your Visa, MasterCard, or Paypal account:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, drop a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus
far during this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that
keeps these Lists running and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment
about how the Lists have helped you!
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt> |
| Subject: | Re: LEDs light mystery (Option 2) |
=EF=BBThanks to all who have responded.
Today I had the time to address the problem at the airplane.
The easiest way (and costless - apart from my $worktime$) to solve it was to
leave the ground circuit which goes to the EFIS annunciator in the N.O. tab
of the microswitch and change the EFIS configuration to =9CActive Hig
h=9D (no need for the pull-up resistor), and connect the ground wire f
rom the LED lights to the N.C. tab of the same microswitch (SPST).
This way, when the baggage door is Open, the LEDs lights are fully lit and t
he alarm =9CBaggage door open=9D appears in the GARMIN monitors,
and when the baggage door is closed, the EFIS annunciator doesn=99t s
how and the LED lights are fully Off.
Yeay!!
Another problem solved!
Thanks
Carlos
P.S. - just out of curiosity, after I disconnected the terminal of the groun
d lead of the LED lights, and before reconnecting it to the other tab, the L
EDs showed a very low dim light whenever I touched any metal part of the air
frame with my fingers just holding the connector =F0=9F=98=B3.
These LEDs are really sensitive, they do emit light even with the tiny curre
nt which was flowing through my body...
> No dia 12/11/2019, =C3-s 16:23, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@ae
roelectric.com> escreveu:
> =EF=BB At 12:14 PM 11/10/2019, you wrote:
>> On 11/10/2019 11:44 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>>> Charlie=C3=82
>>>
>>> A DPDT would not suit my need, it has to be a DPST.
>>> And I am not finding a DPST - N.O., which one is it?
>>>
>>> Carlos
>
> Option 2. See
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Lighting/Baggage%20Door%20Lite.pdf
>
> This configuration eliminates the 'dim led'
> condition while satisfying the EFIS input
> requirement using a single switch.
>
> For general rundown on switch nomenclature
> and schematic symbols, see chapter 11 in:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Book/AEC_R12A.pdf
>
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Feneht <peter.feneht(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | draft schematic attached |
Hello to Bob and the Group,
Can someone advise me on the attached schematic? It is a pdf file.
Thanks!
--Peter
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: draft schematic attached |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
The 20 amp alternator fuse is way too small. The purpose of that fuse is to protect
the battery from short circuits.
The fuse should be physically located near the contactors.
Use 18AWG for voltage regulator wires. The 5 amp regulator fuse is OK.
The panel switch and 5 amp fuse are not needed or desired. Eliminate them. They
are unnecessary failure points. Consider using 10AWG for the power bus feeder.
The 12AWG wire going to the starter contactor is too big. Replace it with 18AWG.
That wire needs to be fused. 5 amp should be good.
The 14AWG wires connected to the power bus are too big. Replace them with 18AWG.
Protect those wires with 5 amp fuses. Manufacturer's instructions take precedence
over my recommendations.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492871#492871
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: draft schematic attached |
I'd remove the panel switch.
On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 2:03 PM Peter Feneht wrote:
> Hello to Bob and the Group,
>
> Can someone advise me on the attached schematic? It is a pdf file.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --Peter
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: LEDs light mystery |
| From: | "dharya" <dharyapatil(at)gmail.com> |
Good information.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492873#492873
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fiberglass instrument panel |
| From: | "MAXI5005" <slavaslim(at)gmail.com> |
Will the fiberglass alone be strong enough to support the
avionics ? Do I need an overlay of some sort?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492875#492875
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)GMail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fiberglass instrument panel |
Fibreglass aka polyester and glass can be strong enough to support most
panel mounted avionics. The problems or rather limitations of fibreglass
are:
1. Not as rigid(stiff) as aluminum so will require reinforcement to reduce
localized bending. Ie, around openings where racks attach to the panel face.
2. holes that are made after fabrication break the glass fibers and are
subject to tear out are cracking.
3. Requires a mold to make the panel thus additional time and effort to
fabricate. (typically the panel needs to be removable to facilitate
construction and maintenance).
Not impossible but not very practical unless there is some compelling
requirement.
Chris
On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 10:19 PM MAXI5005 wrote:
>
> Will the fiberglass alone be strong enough to support the
> avionics ? Do I need an overlay of some sort?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492875#492875
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fiberglass instrument panel |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
MAXI5005 is a spammer. Notice that he copied and pasted the original poster's
question.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492879#492879
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fiberglass instrument panel |
| From: | Harley Dixon <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
The panels in our Long EZs (if built to plans) are made of fiberglass
laminated on plywood. Very strong and has no problem supporting any
instruments.
But, it is a lot thicker than aluminum panels, and may even be a bit
heavier. Some have replaced the fiberglass/plywood panels with
aluminum, leaving a narrow lip around the edges to mount the panel to.
I like this idea, and probably would have done it myself, but just
wanted to follow the plans when I was at that point, and hadn't heard of
this idea then. It would make it a lot easier to access the rear
(forward!) connections of the instruments, as removing the panel and
dropping it down would be a lot easier than trying to fish around in the
min-hellhole between the instrument panel and the front fuselage.
Harley
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 11/14/2019 8:42 AM, Christopher Cee Stone wrote:
> Fibreglass aka polyester and glass can be strongenough to
> supportmost panel mounted avionics. The problems or rather
> limitations of fibreglass are:
>
> 1. Not as rigid(stiff) as aluminum so will require reinforcement to
> reduce localized bending. Ie, around openings where racks attach to
> the panel face.
> 2. holes that are made after fabrication break the glass fibers and
> are subject to tear out are cracking.
> 3. Requires a mold to make the panel thus additional time and effort
> to fabricate. (typically the panel needs to be removable to
> facilitate construction and maintenance).
>
> Not impossible but not very practical unless there is some compelling
> requirement.
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 10:19 PM MAXI5005 > wrote:
>
> >
>
> Will the fiberglass alone be strong enough to support the
> avionics ? Do I need an overlay of some sort?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492875#492875
>
>
> ==========
> br> fts!)
> r> > rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> ==========
> -
> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> WIKI -
> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fiberglass instrument panel |
Spammers...%$#@#!!!
-chris
On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 6:23 AM user9253 wrote:
>
> MAXI5005 is a spammer. Notice that he copied and pasted the original
> poster's question.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492879#492879
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fiberglass instrument panel |
| From: | Harley Dixon <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
The panels in our Long EZs (if built to plans) are made of fiberglass
laminated on plywood. Very strong and has no problem supporting any
instruments.
But, it is a lot thicker than aluminum panels, and may even be a bit
heavier. Some have replaced the fiberglass/plywood panels with
aluminum, leaving a narrow lip around the edges to mount the panel to.
I like this idea, and probably would have done it myself, but just
wanted to follow the plans when I was at that point, and hadn't heard of
this idea then. It would make it a lot easier to access the rear
(forward!) connections of the instruments, as removing the panel and
dropping it down would be a lot easier than trying to fish around in the
min-hellhole between the instrument panel and the front fuselage.
Harley
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 11/14/2019 8:42 AM, Christopher Cee Stone wrote:
> Fibreglass aka polyester and glass can be strongenough to
> supportmost panel mounted avionics. The problems or rather
> limitations of fibreglass are:
>
> 1. Not as rigid(stiff) as aluminum so will require reinforcement to
> reduce localized bending. Ie, around openings where racks attach to
> the panel face.
> 2. holes that are made after fabrication break the glass fibers and
> are subject to tear out are cracking.
> 3. Requires a mold to make the panel thus additional time and effort
> to fabricate. (typically the panel needs to be removable to
> facilitate construction and maintenance).
>
> Not impossible but not very practical unless there is some compelling
> requirement.
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 10:19 PM MAXI5005 > wrote:
>
> >
>
> Will the fiberglass alone be strong enough to support the
> avionics ? Do I need an overlay of some sort?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492875#492875
>
>
> ==========
> br> fts!)
> r> > rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> ==========
> -
> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> WIKI -
> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fiberglass instrument panel |
| From: | Harley Dixon <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
The panels in our Long EZs (if built to plans) are made of fiberglass
laminated on plywood. Very strong and has no problem supporting any
instruments.
But, it is a lot thicker than aluminum panels, and may even be a bit
heavier. Some have replaced the fiberglass/plywood panels with
aluminum, leaving a narrow lip around the edges to mount the panel to.
I like this idea, and probably would have done it myself, but just
wanted to follow the plans when I was at that point, and hadn't heard of
this idea then. It would make it a lot easier to access the rear
(forward!) connections of the instruments, as removing the panel and
dropping it down would be a lot easier than trying to fish around in the
min-hellhole between the instrument panel and the front fuselage.
Harley
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 11/14/2019 8:42 AM, Christopher Cee Stone wrote:
> Fibreglass aka polyester and glass can be strongenough to
> supportmost panel mounted avionics. The problems or rather
> limitations of fibreglass are:
>
> 1. Not as rigid(stiff) as aluminum so will require reinforcement to
> reduce localized bending. Ie, around openings where racks attach to
> the panel face.
> 2. holes that are made after fabrication break the glass fibers and
> are subject to tear out are cracking.
> 3. Requires a mold to make the panel thus additional time and effort
> to fabricate. (typically the panel needs to be removable to
> facilitate construction and maintenance).
>
> Not impossible but not very practical unless there is some compelling
> requirement.
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 10:19 PM MAXI5005 > wrote:
>
> >
>
> Will the fiberglass alone be strong enough to support the
> avionics ? Do I need an overlay of some sort?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492875#492875
>
>
> ==========
> br> fts!)
> r> > rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> ==========
> -
> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> WIKI -
> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fiberglass instrument panel |
| From: | Harley Dixon <harley(at)AgelessWings.com> |
The panels in our Long EZs (if built to plans) are made of fiberglass
laminated on plywood. Very strong and has no problem supporting any
instruments.
But, it is a lot thicker than aluminum panels, and may even be a bit
heavier. Some have replaced the fiberglass/plywood panels with
aluminum, leaving a narrow lip around the edges to mount the panel to.
I like this idea, and probably would have done it myself, but just
wanted to follow the plans when I was at that point, and hadn't heard of
this idea then. It would make it a lot easier to access the rear
(forward!) connections of the instruments, as removing the panel and
dropping it down would be a lot easier than trying to fish around in the
min-hellhole between the instrument panel and the front fuselage.
Harley
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 11/14/2019 8:42 AM, Christopher Cee Stone wrote:
> Fibreglass aka polyester and glass can be strongenough to
> supportmost panel mounted avionics. The problems or rather
> limitations of fibreglass are:
>
> 1. Not as rigid(stiff) as aluminum so will require reinforcement to
> reduce localized bending. Ie, around openings where racks attach to
> the panel face.
> 2. holes that are made after fabrication break the glass fibers and
> are subject to tear out are cracking.
> 3. Requires a mold to make the panel thus additional time and effort
> to fabricate. (typically the panel needs to be removable to
> facilitate construction and maintenance).
>
> Not impossible but not very practical unless there is some compelling
> requirement.
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 10:19 PM MAXI5005 > wrote:
>
> >
>
> Will the fiberglass alone be strong enough to support the
> avionics ? Do I need an overlay of some sort?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492875#492875
>
>
> ==========
> br> fts!)
> r> > rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> ==========
> -
> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> WIKI -
> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fiberglass instrument panel |
| From: | Harley Dixon <harley(at)agelesswings.com> |
The panels in our Long EZs (if built to plans) are made of fiberglass
laminated on plywood. Very strong and has no problem supporting any
instruments.
But, it is a lot thicker than aluminum panels, and may even be a bit
heavier. Some have replaced the fiberglass/plywood panels with
aluminum, leaving a narrow lip around the edges to mount the panel to.
I like this idea, and probably would have done it myself, but just
wanted to follow the plans when I was at that point, and hadn't heard of
this idea then. It would make it a lot easier to access the rear
(forward!) connections of the instruments, as removing the panel and
dropping it down would be a lot easier than trying to fish around in the
min-hellhole between the instrument panel and the front fuselage.
Harley
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 11/14/2019 8:42 AM, Christopher Cee Stone wrote:
> Fibreglass aka polyester and glass can be strongenough to
> supportmost panel mounted avionics. The problems or rather
> limitations of fibreglass are:
>
> 1. Not as rigid(stiff) as aluminum so will require reinforcement to
> reduce localized bending. Ie, around openings where racks attach to
> the panel face.
> 2. holes that are made after fabrication break the glass fibers and
> are subject to tear out are cracking.
> 3. Requires a mold to make the panel thus additional time and effort
> to fabricate. (typically the panel needs to be removable to
> facilitate construction and maintenance).
>
> Not impossible but not very practical unless there is some compelling
> requirement.
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 10:19 PM MAXI5005 > wrote:
>
> >
>
> Will the fiberglass alone be strong enough to support the
> avionics ? Do I need an overlay of some sort?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492875#492875
>
>
> ==========
> br> fts!)
> r> > rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> ==========
> -
> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> WIKI -
> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Feneht <peter.feneht(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: draft schematic attached |
Thanks! -pf
On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 6:35 PM user9253 wrote:
>
> The 20 amp alternator fuse is way too small. The purpose of that fuse is
> to protect the battery from short circuits.
> The fuse should be physically located near the contactors.
> Use 18AWG for voltage regulator wires. The 5 amp regulator fuse is OK.
> The panel switch and 5 amp fuse are not needed or desired. Eliminate
> them. They are unnecessary failure points. Consider using 10AWG for the
> power bus feeder.
> The 12AWG wire going to the starter contactor is too big. Replace it with
> 18AWG. That wire needs to be fused. 5 amp should be good.
> The 14AWG wires connected to the power bus are too big. Replace them with
> 18AWG.
> Protect those wires with 5 amp fuses. Manufacturer's instructions take
> precedence over my recommendations.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492871#492871
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | ADS-B Diversity Antenna for Canada |
| From: | "TerryEdwards" <terry.edwards(at)telus.net> |
Sometime in the future (already delayed at least once) Canada will require ADS-B
with diversity antenna. The bottom one is not a problem, but the top one could
be for my RV-9A. I hate the look of any antenna on the top profile of the fuselage.
Thinking ahead for when this becomes a requirement, a standard rod style or shark
fin style transponder antenna would fit nicely under the vertical stabilizer
fiberglass tip fairing and would be mounted to the vertical stabilizer top rib.
The top rib is aluminum and measures 2" x 7". I understand the ground plane
in this location is rather small. Would this location work at all?
--------
RV-9A Firewall Forward
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492892#492892
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Value of the List... |
If you look forward to checking your List email everyday (and a lot of you have
written to say that you do!), then you're probably getting at least $20 or $30
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Won't you please take a minute to make your Contribution today and support these
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http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, drop a personal check in the mail to:
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Thank you for your support!
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: draft schematic attached |
Hi Peter
Please let us have a copy of that updated drawing after the edits as
suggested by Joe?
Best...
Bob Verwey
082 331 2727
On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 at 02:53, Peter Feneht wrote:
> Thanks! -pf
>
> On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 6:35 PM user9253 wrote:
>
>>
>> The 20 amp alternator fuse is way too small. The purpose of that fuse is
>> to protect the battery from short circuits.
>> The fuse should be physically located near the contactors.
>> Use 18AWG for voltage regulator wires. The 5 amp regulator fuse is OK.
>> The panel switch and 5 amp fuse are not needed or desired. Eliminate
>> them. They are unnecessary failure points. Consider using 10AWG for the
>> power bus feeder.
>> The 12AWG wire going to the starter contactor is too big. Replace it
>> with 18AWG. That wire needs to be fused. 5 amp should be good.
>> The 14AWG wires connected to the power bus are too big. Replace them
>> with 18AWG.
>> Protect those wires with 5 amp fuses. Manufacturer's instructions take
>> precedence over my recommendations.
>>
>> --------
>> Joe Gores
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492871#492871
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> br> fts!)
>> r> > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> ==========
>> -
>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ADS-B Diversity Antenna for Canada |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
I think that a transponder antenna on that rib will work fine.
A bigger problem is a transponder that can only be connected to one antenna. There
is an article in the December 2019 issue of Kitplanes Magazine about the
proposed Canadian requirements and transponders.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492975#492975
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Todd Bartrim <bartrim(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ADS-B Diversity Antenna for Canada |
Hi Terry;
You may already be aware of this but uAvionics is developing a Canadian
version of their wingtip mounted SkyBeacon.
More info can be found here
https://uavionix.com/testing-sbx/
It will be called SkyBeacon-X.
This is the option I'm waiting for.
Todd
C-FSTB
RV9
On Thu., Nov. 14, 2019, 21:21 TerryEdwards, wrote:
> terry.edwards(at)telus.net>
>
> Sometime in the future (already delayed at least once) Canada will require
> ADS-B with diversity antenna. The bottom one is not a problem, but the top
> one could be for my RV-9A. I hate the look of any antenna on the top
> profile of the fuselage.
>
> Thinking ahead for when this becomes a requirement, a standard rod style
> or shark fin style transponder antenna would fit nicely under the vertical
> stabilizer fiberglass tip fairing and would be mounted to the vertical
> stabilizer top rib. The top rib is aluminum and measures 2" x 7". I
> understand the ground plane in this location is rather small. Would this
> location work at all?
>
> --------
> RV-9A Firewall Forward
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492892#492892
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ADS-B Diversity Antenna for Canada |
| From: | Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl> |
Could a plastic airplane do with a single dipole antenna in the tail?
The Kitplane article (in 12-2019) does not say.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Beebe <rick(at)beebe.org> |
| Subject: | Speaking of LEDs |
The baggage compartment LED discussion reminded me...I'm putting in a
B&C backup alternator. The voltage regulator comes with an incandescent
low voltage light and they recommend keeping it. For aesthetic reason in
my new panel (part of the project), I would like to use an LED to match
the other indicators. I believe they want an incandescent because the VR
puts out a trickle current that will keep the LED slightly lit. Anyone
know if that's true and if there's a workaround? Or is there a more
serious functional reason it needs to stay incandescent?
--Rick
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of LEDs |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
A resistor is parallel with the LED will prevent the dim LED glow when it should
be off.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492987#492987
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl> |
| Subject: | Re: ADS-B Diversity Antenna for Canada |
Could a plastic airplane do with a single dipole antenna in the tail?
The Kitplane article (in 12-2019) does not say.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Wiring book review |
| From: | "velletazjp" <velletazjp(at)gmail.com> |
Hi everybody.
First message on the forum from a Jodel driver from France.
Huge thanks to Bob for all the info he shared and he's commitment to improve the
HomeBuild community all over the world...
Big thanks as well for all the members of this group who help newbies like me when
it comes to trying to avoid smoke and flames behind our panels.
While a conducted a very small project when I rewired my Jodel D119 with the help
of my father 5 years ago, it's now my turn to help a fellow Jodel owner to
redo is eletric system.
He just ordered, on my advice, a starter and a Generator from B&C to put on his
continental C90.
I made a wiring book, following Bob's recommandation.
Please find below a PDF with the complete wiring book and panel, any critics are
most welcome before we effectively start to cut and crimp.
--------
2020 contribution paid
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492993#492993
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/ppzf_d119_wire_book_175.pdf
http://forums.matronics.com//files/panel_final_model_2_490.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of LEDs |
At 03:35 PM 11/15/2019, you wrote:
>The baggage compartment LED discussion reminded me...I'm putting in
>a B&C backup alternator. The voltage regulator comes with an
>incandescent low voltage light and they recommend keeping it. For
>aesthetic reason in my new panel (part of the project), I would like
>to use an LED to match the other indicators. I believe they want an
>incandescent because the VR puts out a trickle current that will
>keep the LED slightly lit. Anyone know if that's true and if there's
>a workaround? Or is there a more serious functional reason it needs
>to stay incandescent?
You can replace the incandescent lamp with
LED by proper application of some resistors:
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LR3_LV_Led_1.jpg
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wingtip NAV antennas |
At 08:12 AM 11/16/2019, you wrote:
>Robert
>
>I am building an RV7 and have been to the Sportair electronic
>workshop and they told us about the wingtip NAV antennas that are
>made out of aluminum sheet. I looked in your book and it showes them
>but not the specific way to mount them. Do you have any specific
>instructions on mounting them. And also I have my wingtips set up to
>be removable so the antenna needs to be set up where it will either
>be removable with the wingtip or not interfere with the removal. I
>plan to make my lights plug in at the wingtip for removal. Can you
>give me any guidance on the installation of these antennas that will
>accomplish my goal.
>
>Tom Tipton
>minnimo65757(at)yahoo.com
Tom, these are screwed or riveted to the wingtip closeout
rib. The official instructions describe management
of the wing tip light wiring.
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pdf/SA001.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wiring book review |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
The voltage monitor is mislabeled as voltage "regulator" on last page.
The 20 amp fuse F1.1 is not needed or desired. If it blows, all electrical power
is lost. Bob's architecture does not have a
fuse at that location for a reason. If you insist on putting a fuse there, increase
its size to 30 amps.
Increase fuse F2.3 size to 20 amps. The purpose of that fuse is to protect the
battery from short circuits.
Its purpose is not for overload protection because the 12 amp alternator is incapable
of supplying that much current.
Eliminate 15 amp fuse F2.2 because it is not needed or desired. It serves no useful
purpose and is a problem waiting to happen.
The alternator is not capable of putting out much more than 12 amps. It is self
current limiting. No overload protection is required.
Consider using fuses instead of circuit breakers. Fuses cost less, weigh less,
and are more reliable.
7 amp breaker B4 START does not need to be so big. 5 amps is OK. B4 label is
not readable on page 2.0
Circuit breaker B1 could be connected directly to the main bus along with all of
the other breakers. Then the fuselink can be eliminated.
The reason that Bob mounted that breaker remotely is because he used fuses on the
main power bus.
Consider using an EFIS or electronic engine monitor instead of steam gauges.
Nice drawings.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492997#492997
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wiring book review |
| From: | "velletazjp" <velletazjp(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Joe thank you so much for your valuable answer.
I followed your recommendations (and looked again to Bob's drawings) and made the
modifications you suggested.
I attached the general drawing to avoid overloading the server...
user9253 wrote:
> The voltage monitor is mislabeled as voltage "regulator" on last page.
>
corrected
user9253 wrote:
>
> The 20 amp fuse F1.1 is not needed or desired. If it blows, all electrical power
is lost. Bob's architecture does not have a
> fuse at that location for a reason. If you insist on putting a fuse there, increase
its size to 30 amps.
>
corrected, I've checked on Bob's drawing Z13 and you're right it's not there. Although
if you look at B&C wiring recommendation, there is one indeed. Don't know
the reason why tough...
Chances to loose all electric equipments with a single failure, scared me enough
to remove it.
user9253 wrote:
>
> Increase fuse F2.3 size to 20 amps. The purpose of that fuse is to protect the
battery from short circuits.
> Its purpose is not for overload protection because the 12 amp alternator is incapable
of supplying that much current.
>
Done
user9253 wrote:
>
> Eliminate 15 amp fuse F2.2 because it is not needed or desired. It serves no
useful purpose and is a problem waiting to happen.
> The alternator is not capable of putting out much more than 12 amps. It is self
current limiting. No overload protection is required.
>
Done although the manufacturer documentation show one here (see drawing).
user9253 wrote:
>
> Consider using fuses instead of circuit breakers. Fuses cost less, weigh less,
and are more reliable.
>
I suggested that option to my friend, and I'll definitly go with fuse for my next
project but he likes the "airliner" touch of the breakers (we fly Airbus together,
nobody's perfect... :-) )))
user9253 wrote:
>
> 7 amp breaker B4 START does not need to be so big. 5 amps is OK.
>
corrected
user9253 wrote:
>
> B4 label is not readable on page 2.0
>
corrected
user9253 wrote:
>
> Circuit breaker B1 could be connected directly to the main bus along with all
of the other breakers. Then the fuselink can be eliminated.
> The reason that Bob mounted that breaker remotely is because he used fuses on
the main power bus.
>
changed that, make way more sense like that...
user9253 wrote:
>
> Consider using an EFIS or electronic engine monitor instead of steam gauges.
>
an EFIS in a Jodel.... ;-)
user9253 wrote:
>
> Nice drawings.
Thanks !!
--------
2020 contribution paid
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492999#492999
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/504_500_revi_2_113.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wiring book review |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
A 7" EFIS such as the Dynon SE (no moving map) Skyview should fit into the
panel. If the Garmin G5 and all of the steam gauges are eliminated, the total
cost might be competitive. It wouldn't hurt to compare prices.
Has anyone done a price comparison of Glass versus Steam gauges?
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493000#493000
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wiring book review |
| From: | "velletazjp" <velletazjp(at)gmail.com> |
user9253 wrote:
> A 7" EFIS such as the Dynon SE (no moving map) Skyview should fit into the
> panel. If the Garmin G5 and all of the steam gauges are eliminated, the total
> cost might be competitive. It wouldn't hurt to compare prices.
> Has anyone done a price comparison of Glass versus Steam gauges?
That was a joke on my side,
I'm totally with the Idea of EFIS; and as a matter of facts I've planned to install
a dual screen G3X in my upcoming, 160kt, 4 seats Jodel (I take the liberty
to talk about it on this forum because nobody from France will ever read this
post and I intend to keep it partially undisclosed util it actually fly)...
But I did the maths : dual G3x screen (PFD + MFD) was roughly the same as dual
G5 + G3x screen for engine instruments.
I encouraged friend to go with a G5 but he decided against. Also, he already have
the Jeager steam gauges from the 1960 era, that fit with the history and the
philosophy of the plane.
attached a "not definitive" version of my panel
(Stein, I saw you were stopping by from time to time to this list, and I might
need somebody to take all my money for this one [Laughing] )
--------
2020 contribution paid
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493001#493001
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dh_251_panel_g3x_model_2_837.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wiring book review |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Your secret is out. :-) Gilles T. reads these posts. I think that he is from
France.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493003#493003
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Coming Soon - The List of Contributors - Please Make |
A Contribution Today!
Each year at the end of the List Fund Raiser, I post a message acknowledging everyone
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of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation
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Please take a moment and assure that your name is on that List of Contributors
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Assure that your name is on this year's LOC! Show others that you appreciate the
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Feneht <peter.feneht(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: draft schematic attached |
Bob Verwey generously encouraged me to send my revised schematic abased on
Joe Gores' advice. In addition, I attached a conceptual layout of the
panel. I am mystified by how to go from these drawings to the actual
physical systems. I am seriously considering the Vertical Power system. I
am hoping their motto is correct, 'easier, safer, better' - and even if
theoretically I could do it less expensively without it, I might be willing
to put extra money toward the VP system for those qualities. Thanks in
advance for any additional advice you have to offer.
best. Peter
On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 2:09 AM Bob Verwey wrote:
> Hi Peter
>
> Please let us have a copy of that updated drawing after the edits as
> suggested by Joe?
>
> Best...
> Bob Verwey
> 082 331 2727
>
>
> On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 at 02:53, Peter Feneht wrote:
>
>> Thanks! -pf
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 6:35 PM user9253 wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The 20 amp alternator fuse is way too small. The purpose of that fuse
>>> is to protect the battery from short circuits.
>>> The fuse should be physically located near the contactors.
>>> Use 18AWG for voltage regulator wires. The 5 amp regulator fuse is OK.
>>> The panel switch and 5 amp fuse are not needed or desired. Eliminate
>>> them. They are unnecessary failure points. Consider using 10AWG for the
>>> power bus feeder.
>>> The 12AWG wire going to the starter contactor is too big. Replace it
>>> with 18AWG. That wire needs to be fused. 5 amp should be good.
>>> The 14AWG wires connected to the power bus are too big. Replace them
>>> with 18AWG.
>>> Protect those wires with 5 amp fuses. Manufacturer's instructions take
>>> precedence over my recommendations.
>>>
>>> --------
>>> Joe Gores
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492871#492871
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ==========
>>> br> fts!)
>>> r> > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: draft schematic attached |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
No doubt that Vertical Power performs as advertised. There are lots of satisfied
customers.
Vertical Power will provide lots of data that could come in handy for troubleshooting.
But there are some disadvantages:
It costs more than fuses.
If it breaks, can you fix it yourself?
If it becomes necessary to repair, will your plane be out of service?
Will the company ever go out of business?
If wiring a basic electrical system with fuses proves to be challenging, then so
will wiring Vertical Power.
Here is an interesting thread about fuses:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16762261&sid=ee7724058fb26b668cd6e7bd436dcf2b
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493090#493090
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: draft schematic attached |
At 05:33 PM 11/17/2019, you wrote:
>Bob Verwey generously encouraged me to send my
>revised schematic abased on Joe Gores'
>advice.=C2 In addition, I attached a conceptual
>layout of the panel.=C2 I am mystified by how to
>go from these drawings to the actual physical
>systems.=C2 I am seriously considering the Vertical Power system.
The VP option means that you toss out all you've
done so far and start over . . .
>=C2 I am hoping their motto is correct, 'easier, safer, better'
. . . not quantitative.
> - and even if theoretically I could do it less expensively without it
> I might be willing to put extra money toward the VP system for those
> qualities. Thanks in advance for any additional advice you have to offer.
I've worked dozens of aircraft accident investigations.
I've read many more final reports on bad-days-in-the-cockpit.
Only a tiny percentage of accidents are precipitated or
advanced due to electrical system failures. Accidents
that started with electrical failures were found to have
root cause in poor judgement in electrical system management,
design and/or fabrication.
I would call your attention to accidents discussed in
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Accidents/N811HB_Feb2008_LA-IVp/
and
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Accidents/N289DT_Nov2010_RV-10/Da
n_Lloyd_RV-10_Accident.pdf
. . . two examples of serious accidents precipitated
by poor craftsmanship and/or design decisions.
We've had numerous discussions over the years
exploring the manner in which ignorance of
electrical system functionality produced situations
that didn't need to happen. Here's one we studied
here on the List 15 years ago:
https://tinyurl.com/kqo7jx8
Building a failure tolerant electrical system is
really easy. It begins with two processes
you have already implemented: (1) propose an
architecture and (2) seek peer review. These
are best followed with continuous conversation
with knowledgeable/experienced individuals
as your project moves along.
The goal is to have an UNDERSTANDING of how
all the bits-and-pieces fit into the system . . .
a quality that you don't get in flight school.
Finally, it behooves you to have a plan-B
for worst case failure . . . the totally
dark panel. I've never owned an a cross-country
capable airplane . . . but I've rented dozens
of different machines. Not once did I concern
myself with the airplane's electrical system
service history . . . I carried this stuff
in the flight bag.
https://tinyurl.com/qw73hkd
I was always prepared to get where I had
intended to go whether or not the stuff on
the panel was working. In fact, most of
my cross-country navigation was conducted
with DUAL, $100 GPS hand-helds purchase
at Walmart . . . I've never bothered to
turn on the super-whippy GPS system
in a rental airplane. They were all
different and came with a 1-inch thick
owner's manual. I didn't what to take the
time to learn a new system with each rental
when my personal hand-helds got me there
and back again with accuracy and confidence.
You cannot purchase understanding or confidence
in your electrical system. Poor craftsmanship
can render all the gee-whiz features of a VP
system useless. I'm not suggesting that
the VP products do not function well as
advertised. But I would rather you craft
a system with a confidence that arises
from understanding and save a lot of money . . .
dollars that would no doubt put some handy
plan-b hardware in your flight bag.
You're off to an excellent start . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wiring book review |
| From: | "peroperro" <mrbadguy69(at)protonmail.com> |
Hi velletazjp, to you think I can ask you to review my book as well? It would be
lovely to have your detailed input. Thanks very much in advance!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493095#493095
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fast Return Investment 9000% ROI after 1 day |
| From: | "peroperro" <mrbadguy69(at)protonmail.com> |
This ROI like you mentioned looks really suspicious. I simply don't believe anyone
can earn like this daily if we don't speak of a pyramid, of course. Whomever
promised you this revenue is I think unfair and not just to you. So if you
really want to win anything, you will be better off playing crypto games https://duckdice.com/promotions
and participating in the jackpot lottery.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493097#493097
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Wiring book review |
| From: | "velletazjp" <velletazjp(at)gmail.com> |
peroperro wrote:
> Hi velletazjp, to you think I can ask you to review my book as well? It would
be lovely to have your detailed input. Thanks very much in advance!
I could of course, thought I doubt Ill be of any help. I followed religiously Bobs
recommendations and schematics and then I came to this list to get a final
review.
I suggest you start a new thread with your drawing attached so others can give
you their opinion too.
Im just a man in a cave watching shadows...
--------
2020 contribution paid
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493098#493098
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wiring book review |
At 03:20 AM 11/18/2019, you wrote:
>
>
>Hi velletazjp, to you think I can ask you to review my book as well?
>It would be lovely to have your detailed input. Thanks very much in advance!
>
NOT A LEGIT SUBSCRIBER - IGNORE
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: draft schematic attached |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
Hi Peter,
I don't know about everyone else, but it's a lot simpler for me to open
.jpg files than .pdf. In my email client, I can open jpg directly, but I
must first download, then run a pdf viewer.
Charlie
On 11/17/2019 5:33 PM, Peter Feneht wrote:
> Bob Verwey generously encouraged me to send my revised schematic
> abased on Joe Gores' advice. In addition, I attached a conceptual
> layout of the panel. I am mystified by how to go from these drawings
> to the actual physical systems. I am seriously considering the
> Vertical Power system. I am hoping their motto is correct, 'easier,
> safer, better' - and even if theoretically I could do it less
> expensively without it, I might be willing to put extra money toward
> the VP system for those qualities. Thanks in advance for any
> additional advice you have to offer.
>
> best. Peter
>
> On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 2:09 AM Bob Verwey > wrote:
>
> Hi Peter
>
> Please let us have a copy of that updated drawing after the edits
> as suggested by Joe?
>
> Best...
> Bob Verwey
> 082 331 2727
>
>
> On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 at 02:53, Peter Feneht > wrote:
>
> Thanks! -pf
>
> On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 6:35 PM user9253 > wrote:
>
> >
>
> The 20 amp alternator fuse is way too small. The purpose
> of that fuse is to protect the battery from short circuits.
> The fuse should be physically located near the contactors.
> Use 18AWG for voltage regulator wires. The 5 amp
> regulator fuse is OK.
> The panel switch and 5 amp fuse are not needed or
> desired. Eliminate them. They are unnecessary failure
> points. Consider using 10AWG for the power bus feeder.
> The 12AWG wire going to the starter contactor is too big.
> Replace it with 18AWG. That wire needs to be fused. 5
> amp should be good.
> The 14AWG wires connected to the power bus are too big.
> Replace them with 18AWG.
> Protect those wires with 5 amp fuses. Manufacturer's
> instructions take precedence over my recommendations.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Feneht <peter.feneht(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: draft schematic attached |
Bob - I really recognize and agree with the wisdom in the generous advice
that you gave me, super thanks!! You are right, if I build the system that
reflects my understanding of the system, then I can see all the separate
items for maintenance, repair, etc. The VP would be a large 'black box'
that I would have to learn to accept. I like your 'grass roots' type of
approach.
thanks. --Peter
On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 7:50 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 05:33 PM 11/17/2019, you wrote:
>
> Bob Verwey generously encouraged me to send my revised schematic abased o
n
> Joe Gores' advice.=C3=82 In addition, I attached a conceptual layout of
the
> panel.=C3=82 I am mystified by how to go from these drawings to the actu
al
> physical systems.=C3=82 I am seriously considering the Vertical Power sy
stem.
>
>
> The VP option means that you toss out all you've
> done so far and start over . . .
>
> =C3=82 I am hoping their motto is correct, 'easier, safer, better'
>
>
> . . . not quantitative.
>
> - and even if theoretically I could do it less expensively without it
> I might be willing to put extra money toward the VP system for those
> qualities. Thanks in advance for any additional advice you have to offer
.
>
>
> I've worked dozens of aircraft accident investigations.
> I've read many more final reports on bad-days-in-the-cockpit.
>
> Only a tiny percentage of accidents are precipitated or
> advanced due to electrical system failures. Accidents
> that started with electrical failures were found to have
> root cause in poor judgement in electrical system management,
> design and/or fabrication.
>
> I would call your attention to accidents discussed in
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Accidents/N811HB_Feb2008_LA-IV
p/
>
> and
>
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Accidents/N289DT_Nov2010_RV-10
/Dan_Lloyd_RV-10_Accident.pdf
>
> . . . two examples of serious accidents precipitated
> by poor craftsmanship and/or design decisions.
>
> We've had numerous discussions over the years
> exploring the manner in which ignorance of
> electrical system functionality produced situations
> that didn't need to happen. Here's one we studied
> here on the List 15 years ago:
>
> https://tinyurl.com/kqo7jx8
>
> Building a failure tolerant electrical system is
> really easy. It begins with two processes
> you have already implemented: (1) propose an
> architecture and (2) seek peer review. These
> are best followed with continuous conversation
> with knowledgeable/experienced individuals
> as your project moves along.
>
> The goal is to have an UNDERSTANDING of how
> all the bits-and-pieces fit into the system . . .
> a quality that you don't get in flight school.
>
> Finally, it behooves you to have a plan-B
> for worst case failure . . . the totally
> dark panel. I've never owned an a cross-country
> capable airplane . . . but I've rented dozens
> of different machines. Not once did I concern
> myself with the airplane's electrical system
> service history . . . I carried this stuff
> in the flight bag.
>
> https://tinyurl.com/qw73hkd
>
> I was always prepared to get where I had
> intended to go whether or not the stuff on
> the panel was working. In fact, most of
> my cross-country navigation was conducted
> with DUAL, $100 GPS hand-helds purchase
> at Walmart . . . I've never bothered to
> turn on the super-whippy GPS system
> in a rental airplane. They were all
> different and came with a 1-inch thick
> owner's manual. I didn't what to take the
> time to learn a new system with each rental
> when my personal hand-helds got me there
> and back again with accuracy and confidence.
>
> You cannot purchase understanding or confidence
> in your electrical system. Poor craftsmanship
> can render all the gee-whiz features of a VP
> system useless. I'm not suggesting that
> the VP products do not function well as
> advertised. But I would rather you craft
> a system with a confidence that arises
> from understanding and save a lot of money . . .
> dollars that would no doubt put some handy
> plan-b hardware in your flight bag.
>
> You're off to an excellent start . . .
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: draft schematic attached |
At 11:20 AM 11/18/2019, you wrote:
>Bob - I really recognize and agree with the
>wisdom in the generous advice that you gave me,
>super thanks!!=C2 You are right, if I build the
>system that reflects my understanding of the
>system, then I can see all the separate items
>for maintenance, repair, etc.=C2 The VP would be
>a large 'black box' that I would have to learn
>to accept.=C2 I like your 'grass roots' type of approach.
You are most welcome. From the get-go of this
List, primary goals are topped off with
offering time, talent and resources that
go to understanding how to fabricate and
operate a failure-tolerant system.
Worked many years in the T/C world where
pilots were at risk for becoming passengers
in their own machines. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Accidents/N26DK_Mar2013/20130317-
0_PRM1_N26DK.pdf
This airplane bit the dust after 'total electrical
failure', amongst other things. Yet, the ship's
battery was not returned to Concord until about
a year after the accident. After all this time,
the battery still contained a substantial percentage
of full capacity . . . the exact number escapes
me but it was on the order of 80%. The battery
was cycled in the lab and came up to normal
capacity.
A review of the report describes several lapses in
pilot training/understanding. Yet this was a nearly
new biz-jet with a whole panel full of
high-dollar whiz-bangs. But with his battery switch
in STANDBY . . . the really useful things were
not working.
Emacs!
Nearly ALL dark-n-stormy night stories in
the popular journals demonstrate similar
lapses in understanding. Fortunately, the
journal stories had happy endings . . .
the pilot survived to offer his own i-learned-about-
flying-from-that narrative.
I can assure you that the most 'reliable'
systems are simple, light, low-cost and
easily understood by a pilot who does
not choose to become an electrical engineer.
Such systems minimize AUTOMATIC operations
to critical functions that are not (1)
immediately failure-annunciated and (2)
backed up with a MANUALLY implemented plan-B.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: draft schematic attached |
Peter,
I will add my 2 cents to this thread...
Re VP:=C2- I have to say that spending kilo-dollars to do something as el
ementary as power distribution seems like overkill.=C2- For less that a f
ew hundred dollars, you can create a distribution panel using circuit break
ers that accomplish the same mission as VP.=C2- (and even less $ if you e
lect to use fuses)
Circuit breakers (my personal choice) are inexpensive, have a proven track
record (been in use for decades), are individual/independent - i.e. if one
fails it does not affect the others.=C2- They have a very simple "user in
terface".=C2- You can tell whether it's tripped by looking at it. They do
n't require any software to use, program, or configure.=C2- They just wor
k.
If you're operating B777 which has 100s of branch circuits, then electronic
power distribution is certainly warranted.=C2- But for our little experi
mentals, it's most definitely overkill.
I often wonder what a pilot would do when he's trying to get home on a Sund
ay afternoon and something goes wrong w/ the VP system.=C2- There are no
user-serviceable parts in one of those devices.=C2- Is the problem isolat
ed to just one circuit?=C2- Is the whole system compromised?=C2- Is my
panel gonna go dark 15 minutes after take off?=C2- I don't know.=C2- It
would make me kinda nervous.=C2- Disclaimer: I don't own any VP products
and I don't know enough about them to answer those questions.=C2- But I
would certainly want satisfactory answers before considering that product.
=C2- (still pricey, though)
The following is something I wrote that summarizes many of the design conce
pts that BobN & people on this list promote (all good ideas).=C2- I'm bui
lding an RV-7 and I enjoy helping friends & fellow builders with their elec
trical systems.=C2-=C2-
For those who are not electronically inclined, dealing with the electrical
system in anexperimental airplane can seem a little overwhelming. If you're
not sure how to getstarted, need help sifting through all the options, or
just need a little coaching, this siteis here to help.
Electrical systems in experimental aircraft don=99t need to be really
complicated. Thebasic principles are pretty straightforward and the skills
required to do satisfactoryelectrical work are definitely learnable by jus
t about anyone who is capable of puttingan airframe together.
Let=99s face it; electricity can be a little scary. When things go wr
ong, electricalcomponents can create sparks, get really hot, and just plain
not work for no apparentreason. Letting the magic smoke out of that new gi
zmo can be expensiveand embarrassing.
I think that the electrical system in an experimental airplane should have
the followingcharacteristics. It should be:
1. Tolerate failure of any single component & end flight without an emergen
cy2. Reliable3. Easy to operate4. Easy to repair/maintain5. Use standard co
mponents that are readily available6. Cost effective
Those goals can be accomplished with a little effort and some help from the
good folks on this List.
Jeff LuckeyKCMA
ht(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Bob - I really recognize and agree with the wisdom in the generous advice
that you gave me, super thanks!!=C2- You are right, if I build the system
that reflects my understanding of the system, then I can see all the separ
ate items for maintenance, repair, etc.=C2- The VP would be a large 'blac
k box' that I would have to learn to accept.=C2- I like your 'grass roots
' type of approach.thanks.=C2- --Peter
On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 7:50 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroe
lectric.com> wrote:
At 05:33 PM 11/17/2019, you wrote:
Bob Verwey generously encouragedme to send my revised schematic abased on J
oe Gores' advice.=C3=82=C2- Inaddition, I attached a conceptual layout of
the panel.=C3=82=C2- I ammystified by how to go from these drawings to t
he actual physicalsystems.=C3=82=C2- I am seriously considering the Verti
cal Powersystem.
=C2- The VP option means that you toss out all you've
=C2- done so far and start over . . .
=C3=82=C2- I am hoping their mottois correct, 'easier, safer, better'
=C2-=C2- . . . not quantitative.
=C2-- and even iftheoretically I could do it less expensively without it
=C2-I might be willing to put extra money toward the VP system forthose
=C2-qualities. Thanks in advance for any additional advice you have tooff
er.
=C2- I've worked dozens of aircraft accident investigations.
=C2- I've read many more final reports onbad-days-in-the-cockpit.
=C2- Only a tiny percentage of accidents are precipitated or
=C2- advanced due to electrical system failures. Accidents
=C2- that started with electrical failures were found to have
=C2- root cause in poor judgement in electrical system management,
=C2- design and/or fabrication.
=C2- I would call your attention to accidents discussedin
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Accidents/N811HB_Feb2008_LA-IVp/
and=C2-
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Accidents/N289DT_Nov2010_RV-10/D
an_Lloyd_RV-10_Accident.pdf
=C2- . . . two examples of serious accidents precipitated
=C2- by poor craftsmanship and/or design decisions.
=C2- We've had numerous discussions over the years
=C2- exploring the manner in which ignorance of
=C2- electrical system functionality produced situations
=C2- that didn't need to happen. Here's one we studied
=C2- here on the List 15 years ago:
https://tinyurl.com/kqo7jx8
=C2- Building a failure tolerant electrical system is
=C2- really easy. It begins with two processes
=C2- you have already implemented: (1) propose an
=C2- architecture and (2) seek peer review. These
=C2- are best followed with continuous conversation
=C2- with knowledgeable/experienced individuals
=C2- as your project moves along.
=C2- The goal is to have an UNDERSTANDING of how
=C2- all the bits-and-pieces fit into the system . . .
=C2- a quality that you don't get in flight school.
=C2- Finally, it behooves you to have a plan-B
=C2- for worst case failure . . . the totally
=C2- dark panel. I've never owned an a cross-country
=C2- capable airplane . . . but I've rented dozens
=C2- of different machines. Not once did I concern
=C2- myself with the airplane's electrical system
=C2- service history . . . I carried this stuff
=C2- in the flight bag.
https://tinyurl.com/qw73hkd
=C2- I was always prepared to get where I had
=C2- intended to go whether or not the stuff on
=C2- the panel was working. In fact, most of
=C2- my cross-country navigation was conducted
=C2- with DUAL, $100 GPS hand-helds purchase
=C2- at Walmart . . . I've never bothered to
=C2- turn on the super-whippy GPS system
=C2- in a rental airplane. They were all
=C2- different and came with a 1-inch thick
=C2- owner's manual.=C2- I didn't what to take the
=C2- time to learn a new system with each rental
=C2- when my personal hand-helds got me there
=C2- and back again with accuracy and confidence.
=C2- You cannot purchase understanding or confidence
=C2- in your electrical system. Poor craftsmanship
=C2- can render all the gee-whiz features of a VP
=C2- system useless. I'm not suggesting that
=C2- the VP products do not function well as
=C2- advertised. But I would rather you craft
=C2- a system with a confidence that arises
=C2- from understanding and save a lot of money . . .
=C2- dollars that would no doubt put some handy
=C2- plan-b hardware in your flight bag.
=C2- You're off to an excellent start . . .
=C2- Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | YOU BETTER HAVE A PLAN! |
| From: | "racerjerry" <gnking2(at)verizon.net> |
I value SIMPLICITY!
While Bob & Stein are absolutely correct in the previous discussion about aircraft
electrical architecture, I would like to share my perspective.
Say you actually have an electrical shorting problem and get smoke in the cockpit
- WHADDAYA' DO NOW?
YOU BETTER HAVE a PLAN! My plan is, one motion, KILL MASTER SWITCH; turning
off all electrical power. And do anything necessary in order to breath some fresh
air, including sticking head outside window. Often, you only have a very
few seconds react and figure it all out, or.... GAME OVER!
Years ago I did appliance service work from a van that some yahoo had wired in
a burglar alarm by twisting wires together. While driving down the road at about
40 mph, the darned wiring shorted out and it was all I could do to get the
van stopped and roll out onto the roadway coughing my brains out; completely
oblivious to oncoming traffic. I was totally incapacitated in mere seconds due
to PVC fumes from melted wiring. The interior of that van had a whole lot more
room to disperse fumes than a typical homebuilt airplane or even my 172.
While I am on this subject, please do not wire your airplane with anything but
certified aircraft wire (MIL-W-22759). PVC insulated crap from the auto store
will incapacitate you MUCH sooner. Be aware that power cables from accessories
and devices never meant to be panel installed in certified aircraft have the
same danger.
As I said, I value simplicity.
What electrical devices do I need to get my airplane safely back on the ground?
Answer: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
Can I safely land without flaps or radio or anything else electrical? Answer:
YES - magneto ignition and flying VFR only.
Would I rather be flying a homebuilt Van's RV? Answer: You better believe it;
but I am too darned old now and consider myself very lucky to keep what I already
have (wife included).
If you have an electrically dependent airplane.... Good luck with that!
You had better make those systems very robust and completely isolated from the
rest as much as humanly possible.
If you have a bubble canopy, how are you going to get a blast of fresh air to your
face or vent out the smoke quickly. Better figure out a plan NOW. NACA fuselage
scoop with outlet hose aimed at your face? Maybe. Oxygen system?
- cannula type won't work - need mask and possibly eye protection from irritants.
BTW, If you install a terminal block, make darned sure that an internal star lock-washer
is installed under every screw head (or nut) as normal vibration is
very likely to cause separation and some of the electrical shorting problems that
you are trying to protect from.
AND, electronic ignition is great and can offer advantages as long as you retain
ONE stock magneto. Don't be fooled by marketeer nonsense that can kill you.
Yeah, I know that I am going to take some heat from this; especially since all
GA is headed toward EFI and total electrical dependency, but I stand my ground.
Keep the odds on your side.
Jerry King
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493111#493111
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: YOU BETTER HAVE A PLAN! |
Well said Jerry.
Yes, therell be differing opinions, everyones prerogative.
Im building IFR with a slider canopy that cant be opened at all in flight. After
a long career dealing with smoke and fumes of unknown origin in P-3 Orions (high
power flying electronics platforms), I have thought very carefully about
smoke and fumes in the cockpit; therefore NACA scoop placement/efficiency with
a big punkah louvre and smoke removal doors too. I also have plans for a sealable,
slim fireproof container (with silicon vent overboard) for portable electronic
devices (e.g. iPad or iPhone) should one of those start smoking/burning,
noting Lithium battery fires cant be externally extinguished (cathode degeneration
propagates oxygen). I used Vans fuselage vents mounted backwards as smoke
removal doors ... they may want to close under slipstream pressure, but can
be locked open.
Kind regards, Stu
Sent from my iPhone
> On 19 Nov 2019, at 09:34, racerjerry wrote:
>
>
> I value SIMPLICITY!
>
> While Bob & Stein are absolutely correct in the previous discussion about aircraft
electrical architecture, I would like to share my perspective.
> Say you actually have an electrical shorting problem and get smoke in the cockpit
- WHADDAYA' DO NOW?
>
> YOU BETTER HAVE a PLAN! My plan is, one motion, KILL MASTER SWITCH; turning
off all electrical power. And do anything necessary in order to breath some
fresh air, including sticking head outside window. Often, you only have a very
few seconds react and figure it all out, or.... GAME OVER!
>
> Years ago I did appliance service work from a van that some yahoo had wired in
a burglar alarm by twisting wires together. While driving down the road at
about 40 mph, the darned wiring shorted out and it was all I could do to get the
van stopped and roll out onto the roadway coughing my brains out; completely
oblivious to oncoming traffic. I was totally incapacitated in mere seconds due
to PVC fumes from melted wiring. The interior of that van had a whole lot
more room to disperse fumes than a typical homebuilt airplane or even my 172.
>
> While I am on this subject, please do not wire your airplane with anything but
certified aircraft wire (MIL-W-22759). PVC insulated crap from the auto store
will incapacitate you MUCH sooner. Be aware that power cables from accessories
and devices never meant to be panel installed in certified aircraft have
the same danger.
>
> As I said, I value simplicity.
> What electrical devices do I need to get my airplane safely back on the ground?
Answer: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
> Can I safely land without flaps or radio or anything else electrical? Answer:
YES - magneto ignition and flying VFR only.
> Would I rather be flying a homebuilt Van's RV? Answer: You better believe it;
but I am too darned old now and consider myself very lucky to keep what I already
have (wife included).
>
> If you have an electrically dependent airplane.... Good luck with that!
> You had better make those systems very robust and completely isolated from the
rest as much as humanly possible.
>
> If you have a bubble canopy, how are you going to get a blast of fresh air to
your face or vent out the smoke quickly. Better figure out a plan NOW. NACA
fuselage scoop with outlet hose aimed at your face? Maybe. Oxygen system?
- cannula type won't work - need mask and possibly eye protection from irritants.
>
> BTW, If you install a terminal block, make darned sure that an internal star
lock-washer is installed under every screw head (or nut) as normal vibration is
very likely to cause separation and some of the electrical shorting problems
that you are trying to protect from.
>
> AND, electronic ignition is great and can offer advantages as long as you retain
ONE stock magneto. Don't be fooled by marketeer nonsense that can kill you.
Yeah, I know that I am going to take some heat from this; especially since
all GA is headed toward EFI and total electrical dependency, but I stand my ground.
>
> Keep the odds on your side.
>
> Jerry King
>
> --------
> Jerry King
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493111#493111
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: draft schematic attached |
At 11:20 AM 11/18/2019, you wrote:
>Bob - I really recognize and agree with the
>wisdom in the generous advice that you gave me,
>super thanks!!=C2 You are right, if I build the
>system that reflects my understanding of the
>system, then I can see all the separate items
>for maintenance, repair, etc.=C2 The VP would be
>a large 'black box' that I would have to learn
>to accept.=C2 I like your 'grass roots' type of approach.
You are most welcome. From the get-go of this
List, primary goals are topped off with
offering time, talent and resources that
go to understanding how to fabricate and
operate a failure-tolerant system.
Worked many years in the T/C world where
pilots were at risk for becoming passengers
in their own machines. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Accidents/N26DK_Mar2013/20130317-
0_PRM1_N26DK.pdf
This airplane bit the dust after 'total electrical
failure', amongst other things. Yet, the ship's
battery was not returned to Concord until about
a year after the accident. After all this time,
the battery still contained a substantial percentage
of full capacity . . . the exact number escapes
me but it was on the order of 80%. The battery
was cycled in the lab and came up to normal
capacity.
A review of the report describes several lapses in
pilot training/understanding. Yet this was a nearly
new biz-jet with a whole panel full of
high-dollar whiz-bangs. However, with his battery switch
in STANDBY . . . some really useful things were
not working.
Emacs!
Nearly ALL dark-n-stormy night stories in
the popular journals demonstrate similar
lapses in understanding. Fortunately, the
journal stories had happy endings . . .
the pilot survived to offer his own i-learned-about-
flying-from-that narrative (See Chapter 17
in the 'Connection).
I can assure you that the most 'reliable'
systems are simple, light, low-cost yet
easily understood by a pilot who
chooses not to become an electrical engineer.
Such systems minimize AUTOMATIC operations
to critical functions that are not (1)
immediately failure-annunciated and (2)
backed up with a MANUALLY implemented plan-B.
My all time favorite reliability study
ASSUMES that things WILL fail. There
is a process call Failure Mode Effects
Analysis whereby one deduces the effects
for failure of ANY single component in
the system.
1. How many ways can this part fail?
2. How will each failure affect system operation?
3. How will I know it failed?
4. Is the failure pre-flight detectable?
5. Is failure of this part, in any failure mode, likely to create
a hazard to flight?
6. Will failure of this part be likely to overtax my piloting
skills for comfortably terminating the flight?
Having conducted hundreds of FMEA studies I have concluded:
Nuckolls' first law of airplane systems design sez: "Things
break"
The second: "Systems shall be designed so that when a thing
breaks, no immediate hazard is created."
The third: "Things needed for comfortable termination of
flight requires backup or special consideration to insure
operational availability"
The forth: "Upgrading the quality, reliability, longevity, or
capability of a part shall be because you're tired of replacing
it or want some new feature, not because it damned near got
you killed."
All this may sound ominous and profound but it's
really simple. As you evolve your proposed architecture,
advise us how you plan to use the airplane. Are there
potential mission conditions that elevate risk for
any given failure? I'll bet that the aggregate
aviation experience here on the List would be
measured in centuries. Let's talk about your
design and mission goals . . . by the time
all the sands are sifted, you'll end up with
a very flight-worthy project with reliability
borne of your own understanding.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Please Make a Contribution to Support Your Lists... |
Dear Listers,
Just a reminder that November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Please make a Contribution
today to support the continued operation and upgrade of these great
List services!! Pick up a really nice free gift with your qualifying Contribution
too!
The Contribution Site is fast and easy:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94551-0347
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: YOU BETTER HAVE A PLAN! |
At 04:23 PM 11/18/2019, you wrote:
>
>I value SIMPLICITY!
>
>While Bob & Stein are absolutely correct in the previous discussion
>about aircraft electrical architecture, I would like to share my perspective.
>Say you actually have an electrical shorting problem and get smoke
>in the cockpit - WHADDAYA' DO NOW?
>
>YOU BETTER HAVE a PLAN! My plan is, one motion, KILL MASTER
>SWITCH; turning off all electrical power. And do anything necessary
>in order to breath some fresh air, including sticking head outside
>window. Often, you only have a very few seconds react and figure
>it all out, or.... GAME OVER!
While smoke (or any untoward smells) in the cockpit
are never a good thing. But the idea that a failing
conductor's noxious output risks become an olfactory
tsunami cries out for an FMEA.
Years ago I did appliance service work from a van that some yahoo had
wired in a burglar alarm by twisting wires together. While driving
down the road at about 40 mph, the darned wiring shorted out and it
was all I could do to get the van stopped and roll out onto the
roadway coughing my brains out; completely oblivious to oncoming
traffic. I was totally incapacitated in mere seconds due to PVC fumes
from melted wiring. The interior of that van had a whole lot more
room to disperse fumes than a typical homebuilt airplane or even my 172.
I'm pleased that your experience had a
happy resolution. But let's do our
FMEA thingy as follows:
How was the failing wire situated in the
vehicle such that an overload of ANY size
would produce smoke? The PRIME DIRECTIVE
all circuit protective devices is: prevent
smoke.
>While I am on this subject, please do not wire your airplane with
>anything but certified aircraft wire (MIL-W-22759). PVC insulated
>crap from the auto store will incapacitate you MUCH sooner. Be
>aware that power cables from accessories and devices never meant to
>be panel installed in certified aircraft have the same danger.
Actually, there is no such thing as 'certified
aircraft wire'. There's a very long list of
wire types flying in T/C aircraft that are
considered flightworthy because they are
part of the ship's type certificate.
It is perfectly acceptable to repair a vintage
aircraft with the same wire that was installed
at the factory . . . this is true all the way
back to uncle Clyde's C-140A that was wired with
cotton over rubber. You used to be able to
buy that stuff (people restoring old cars
were BIG customers). In the 1960s tens of
thousands of s.e. Cessnas were wired with
M19868 type BN (Nylon over PVC). You can
still buy that stuff. Then about 1980
there were about a dozen variations on
'insulation of the day' used throughout
the heavier-than-air industries and yeah,
the Wichita crowd came down on the side
of Tefzel.
But I can assure you, if you 'smoke' a
Tefzel wire in your airplane, you're
not going to find it any more pleasant
than a smoking cotton over rubber wire
in your nice ol' C140 or a nylon over
PVC in your vintage C172,
>As I said, I value simplicity.
>What electrical devices do I need to get my airplane safely back on
>the ground? Answer: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
>Can I safely land without flaps or radio or anything else
>electrical? Answer: YES - magneto ignition and flying VFR only.
>Would I rather be flying a homebuilt Van's RV? Answer: You better
>believe it; but I am too darned old now and consider myself very
>lucky to keep what I already have (wife included).
May I suggest an alternative . . . don't
allow any wire a potential to make smoke.
I.e. offer proper protection based
on artful FMEA.
>If you have an electrically dependent airplane.... Good luck with that!
>You had better make those systems very robust and completely
>isolated from the rest as much as humanly possible.
Yup, that's what battery busses are for.
>AND, electronic ignition is great and can offer advantages as long
>as you retain ONE stock magneto. Don't be fooled by marketeer
>nonsense that can kill you. Yeah, I know that I am going to take
>some heat from this; especially since all GA is headed toward EFI
>and total electrical dependency, but I stand my ground.
>
>Keep the odds on your side.
There are electronic ignitions that come with
their own, built in power supplies. There are
also ways to architecture buss-powered ignition
systems to function independent of each other.
It's a decades old technology with a track-record.
Bottom line is that the 'better plan' is not
difficult to put in place . . . it's been
done for over a century with great success.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | What are the SBCGlobal email settings for iPhone? |
| From: | "techsbcglobal" <dragonumber08(at)gmail.com> |
The incoming and outgoing email server settings allow you to configure your SBCGlobal
account so that you can access your email on your iPhone. The settings
differ depending on whether you use POP3 (Post Office Protocol 3) or IMAP (Internet
Message Access Protocol) email protocol. Heres a look at the settings you
can use to set up your SBCGlobal account on iPhone:
Email protocol: POP3
Inbound server: inbound.att.net
Inbound port: 995
SSL: Yes
Outbound server: outbound.att.net
Outbound port: 465
Email protocol: IMAP
Inbound server: imap.mail.att.net
Inbound port: 993
SSL: Yes
Outbound server: smtp.mail.att.net
Outbound port: 465 or 587
The mail server settings will remain the same regardless of which email program
and mail app you use. If you have any trouble setting up your email account you
can call the SBCGlobal Technical Support (https://sbcglobal-mail.com) and ask
for additional technical assistance.
Read More: https://www.sbcglobal-mail.com/
--------
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493214#493214
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
Dear Listers,
A quick reminder that November is the annual List Fund Raiser. The Matronics Lists
are 100% member supported and all of the operational costs are provided for
my your Contributions during this time of the year.
Your personal Contribution makes a big difference and keeps all of the Matronics
Email Lists and Forums completely ad-free.
Please make your Contribution today to keep these services up and running!
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94551-0347
Thank you in advance!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 07:46 AM 11/21/2019, you wrote:
>
>Dear Listers,
>
>A quick reminder that November is the annual List Fund Raiser. The
>Matronics Lists are 100% member supported and all of the operational
>costs are provided for my your Contributions during this time of the year.
>
>Your personal Contribution makes a big difference and keeps all of
>the Matronics Email Lists and Forums completely ad-free.
>
>Please make your Contribution today to keep these services up and running!
Dr. Dee and I were pleased to attend
banquet in OSH earlier this month where
I was inducted into Hall of Fame homebuilt
division.
While mulling over options for comments
during my time at the microphone it occurred
to me even if one could possess all the knowledge
of universe, it is of little value until
the knowledge-nuggets are exploited as practical
ingredients that go into recipes for success.
An critical component of the pathway from
physics, properties of materials and ideas into
useful products are, for lack of a better term,
'enablers'.
These are the institutions that receive,
archive and disseminate the practical
manifestations of the art and science of
the experience. They build nothing, they
do not originate new ideas or their applications.
But they do perform an invaluable service in
making those ideas available to those who
turn them into practical realities.
I'm speaking of institutions like Sport Aviation,
Kit Planes, Contact, EAA, etc, etc. They don't
turn wrenches or buck rivets . . . but without
them, the practical tasks would be more difficult,
less elegant and probably riskier. How might
GA have evolved had the Wright brothers been
'enabled' with a complete set of fabrication
and assembly planes for say, a Quicksilver MX
ultra-light? Even if unable to precisely duplicate
modern materials and processes, how might the
ideas and examples of that knowledge have accelerated
their successes?
I suggest we are all beneficiaries of
possibly the most powerful of enablers in
OBAM aviation: The Matronics Lists.
That room full of byte thrashers connected
to the 'net doesn't buck rivets or bend
sheet metal. Yet it offers nearly instant,
world-wide access to the archives that
hold thousands of recipes for success
for the science and art of building OBAM aircraft.
Recipes that are discussed and refined
in near real time.
This is a feature that print journals
cannot begin to match.
We would serve ourselves well by helping to
keep that pile of silicon chips in Matt's
closet alive, happy and well connected. Without
it options for myself and many others to
share of our resources would be severely
limited. Matronics Lists: the ultimate enabler.
Take a few minutes to contemplate your
personal experience with the List and
consider the potential for time and money
saved along with risks averted because
of how the List served your goals.
Compare your experiences here with the
few hours of pleasure for having taken
the family out for a movie and popcorn.
I'll suggest the value received from
the Matronics Lists is at least comparable
to an evening with Spiderman.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Beebe <rick(at)beebe.org> |
| Subject: | Battery/alternator interlock required? |
I admit I'm fuzzy on the ways batteries and alternators interact. I'm
adding a backup alternator and using Z-12 as my guide. I have one of
those standard red split rocker switches which doesn't allow the
alternator to be on without the battery master being on. Would it be bad
to have the battery go off with the alternator on? The standby has a
field switch but it's not connected to the other one so it would
certainly be possible to have that on and shut off the other one. If I
want to replace the rocker with a toggle, should I use a switch that can
do off - batt - batt + alt or could I use two separate toggle switches?
--Rick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery/alternator interlock required? |
At 10:02 PM 11/22/2019, you wrote:
>I admit I'm fuzzy on the ways batteries and alternators interact.
>I'm adding a backup alternator and using Z-12 as my guide. I have
>one of those standard red split rocker switches which doesn't allow
>the alternator to be on without the battery master being on. Would
>it be bad to have the battery go off with the alternator on? The
>standby has a field switch but it's not connected to the other one
>so it would certainly be possible to have that on and shut off the
>other one. If I want to replace the rocker with a toggle, should I
>use a switch that can do off - batt - batt + alt or could I use two
>separate toggle switches?
The 'split rocker' switch was birthed
in the 60's when alternators first began
to replace generators. Alternator/regulator
combinations of the time were not as well
behaved as modern machines. They might not
self-excite. A heavily loaded alternator
might stall and quit if subjected to a
large transient like landing gear pump
or fat landing light . . . recall that the
well fitted aircraft of the time had a panel
full of vacuum tube radios.
While not so critical today (solid state
radios, fewer radios, incandescent landing
lights flying off into the sunset with dodo
birds . . .) having a battery on line any
time alternator ops are needed is not a
bad idea.
The split rocker made sure
that any time the alternator operation
was desired, there would be a battery on
line to keep it happily ginning out electrons
under the worst case conditions.
In my not so humble opinion, from a fabrication
standpoint the rocker switch is a pain in the
you-know-what . . . never did like to cut
rectangular holes when a spot-facer (or now a
step bit) in a drill motor would make such neat
work of the task for mounting switches. Hence, the S702-10
toggle switch substitution for the rocker
switch for performance of the same action.
If it were my airplane, I'd wire up as
suggested in Z-12 using toggle switches.
You have a option of incorporating an
auto-switch feature for the standby alternator
utilizing the SB-1 regulator in which case
normal flight operations are conducted with
BOTH alternators ON. Or fit the standby
alternator with an LR3 or other generic
regulator and do the standby alternator
selection manually as needed. Either works
just fine and the later is less expensive.
But in any case, I suggest you strive to have a
battery on line at all times whether you use a
progressive transfer OFF-BAT-BAT+ALT switch or separate
switches. For my money, the fewer holes in
the panel the better . . . and round holes
are 10x more desirable than square ones.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | [Please Read] What are "The Lists" and Who's This Matt |
Dralle?
Dear Listers,
Who is Matt Dralle and what exactly are these Lists? Well, I've been working in
the information technology industry for over 35 years primarily in computer
networking design and implementation. I have also done extensive work in web
development and CGI design during that time, along with a fair amount of embedded
system and software development as well.
I started the Matronics Email Lists back in 1990 with about 30 fellow RV builders
from around the world. Since that time, I have added 80 other kinds of aircraft
related Lists to the line up and numerous other List related services such
as the Forums, Wiki, Archives and Search Engine just to name a few.
For flexibility and reliability, I have chosen to run all of my own servers here
locally. Other List-related systems include a 1 Gigabit, fully switched network
infrastructure, a commercial-grade Netscreen firewall, a Barracuda spam filter,
a local 1G Internet router, and a commercial-grade business 1Gb/s Internet
connection with full static addressing.
The computer servers found here include a quad-processor Xeon Linux server for
List web services, a dual-processor Xeon Linux system dedicated to the email processing
List functions, and another P4 Linux system serving as a remote storage
disk farm for the archives, databases, and for an on-line hard drive-based
backup system with 3.2 Terra Bytes of storage! This entire system is protected
by three large, commercial-grade uninterrupted power supply (UPS) systems that
assure the Lists are available even during a local power outage! Speaking
of power, imagine how much electricity it takes to run all of these systems.
One month a couple of Summers ago, I had a staggering $1368 bill for electricity
alone!
Recently, I upgraded all of the computer racking infrastructure including new power
feeds and dedicated air conditioning for the room that serves as the Computer
Center for the Matronics Email Lists.
As you can see, I take running these Lists very seriously and I am dedicated to
providing an always-on, 24x7x365 experience for each and every Lister.
But, building and running this system isn't cheap. As I've stated before, I don't
support any of these systems with commercial advertising on the Lists. It
is supported 100% through List member Contributions! That means you... and you...
and YOU!
To that end, I hold a List Fund Raiser each November and ask that members make
a small Contribution to support the continued operation and upgrade of this ever-expanding
system. Its solely YOUR Contributions that keeps it running!
Won't you please take a moment to make a Contribution to support these Lists!
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matronics / Matt Dralle
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550-7227
USA
There are some great gifts available with qualifying Contribution levels too!
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Make Sure You're Listed! |
Dear Listers,
The List of Contributors (LOC) is just around the corner with just few more days
in this year's Fund Raiser! Later in December I will post a list of everyone
that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists this year. Its
my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation
for the Lists.
Won't you take minute and assure that your name is on the upcoming LOC? Tell others
that you appreciate the Lists.
Making a Contribution to support the Lists is fast and easy using your Visa, MasterCard,
or Paypal account:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus
far during this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that
keeps these Lists running and improving!
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 question |
At 01:30 PM 11/25/2019, you wrote:
>Sorry to bother you off the list but I couldn't
>get logged in. I know you prefer questions to be
>posted so everybody can learn. feel free to post
>this if you like. Hope you have an great Thanks giving week!
Thank you sir.
>I'm doing 2 electrical energized field
>alternators (small frame 53A), one adjustable
>regulator,=C2 one non adjustable regulator, 2
>OVM-14 modules, one battery off the Z13/8 dwg.
If you have two, hefty alternators then
Z12 is the better option.
>I have two 5 amp Klixon circuit breakers for the fields.
Okay
>My question is about the OVM-14. If both
>alternators were in output mode due to low
>voltage then one went into over voltage, how do
>I get the OVM-14s to only trip the circuit for
>the one that is over voltage? It seems like both
>field circuits would trip the CB.
You don't run both alternators at the same time.
Run only the main alternator until you get a
low volts warning then turn main alternator
OFF, aux alternator ON>
>Second question is about eBus.
>
>I have Circuit breakers for many things. Instead
>of a second bus, I was thinking of a momentary
>switch connected to the load side of all things
>that could be shut off in battery saving mode.
>Pressing the switch would trip the breakers for
>unnecessary items which could be individually
>turned back on if required. would a switch be
>adequate or should a 704-1 relay be used to handle the shorting load.
I'm curious as to why Z12 is un-attractive as-published?
What shortcomings in Z12 beg rectification?
Also, aside from crow-bar field breakers, why
not fuse blocks? Breakers take up space, add
a lot of fabrication/installation labor, don't
work any better than a fuse. 99.9% of all breakers
installed at the factory go to the scrap yard
never having been required to keep a wire from
smoking. Why so much investment in a feature
that adds nothing to the utility/reliability
of your airplane?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 question |
At 01:30 PM 11/25/2019, you wrote:
>Sorry to bother you off the list but I couldn't
>get logged in. I know you prefer questions to be
>posted so everybody can learn. feel free to post
>this if you like. Hope you have an great Thanks giving week!
Thank you sir.
>I'm doing 2 electrical energized field
>alternators (small frame 53A), one adjustable
>regulator,=C2 one non adjustable regulator, 2
>OVM-14 modules, one battery off the Z13/8 dwg.
If you have two, hefty alternators then
Z12 is the better option.
>I have two 5 amp Klixon circuit breakers for the fields.
Okay
>My question is about the OVM-14. If both
>alternators were in output mode due to low
>voltage then one went into over voltage, how do
>I get the OVM-14s to only trip the circuit for
>the one that is over voltage? It seems like both
>field circuits would trip the CB.
You don't run both alternators at the same time.
Run only the main alternator until you get a
low volts warning then turn main alternator
OFF, aux alternator ON>
>Second question is about eBus.
>
>I have Circuit breakers for many things. Instead
>of a second bus, I was thinking of a momentary
>switch connected to the load side of all things
>that could be shut off in battery saving mode.
>Pressing the switch would trip the breakers for
>unnecessary items which could be individually
>turned back on if required. would a switch be
>adequate or should a 704-1 relay be used to handle the shorting load.
I'm curious as to why Z12 is un-attractive as-published?
What shortcomings in Z12 beg rectification?
Also, aside from crow-bar field breakers, why
not fuse blocks? Breakers take up space, add
a lot of fabrication/installation labor, don't
work any better than a fuse. 99.9% of all breakers
installed at the factory go to the scrap yard
never having been required to keep a wire from
smoking. Why so much investment in a feature
that adds nothing to the utility/reliability
of your airplane?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 question |
At 01:30 PM 11/25/2019, you wrote:
>Sorry to bother you off the list but I couldn't
>get logged in. I know you prefer questions to be
>posted so everybody can learn. feel free to post
>this if you like. Hope you have an great Thanks giving week!
Thank you sir.
>I'm doing 2 electrical energized field
>alternators (small frame 53A), one adjustable
>regulator,=C2 one non adjustable regulator, 2
>OVM-14 modules, one battery off the Z13/8 dwg.
If you have two, hefty alternators then
Z12 is the better option.
>I have two 5 amp Klixon circuit breakers for the fields.
Okay
>My question is about the OVM-14. If both
>alternators were in output mode due to low
>voltage then one went into over voltage, how do
>I get the OVM-14s to only trip the circuit for
>the one that is over voltage? It seems like both
>field circuits would trip the CB.
You don't run both alternators at the same time.
Run only the main alternator until you get a
low volts warning then turn main alternator
OFF, aux alternator ON>
>Second question is about eBus.
>
>I have Circuit breakers for many things. Instead
>of a second bus, I was thinking of a momentary
>switch connected to the load side of all things
>that could be shut off in battery saving mode.
>Pressing the switch would trip the breakers for
>unnecessary items which could be individually
>turned back on if required. would a switch be
>adequate or should a 704-1 relay be used to handle the shorting load.
I'm curious as to why Z12 is un-attractive as-published?
What shortcomings in Z12 beg rectification?
Also, aside from crow-bar field breakers, why
not fuse blocks? Breakers take up space, add
a lot of fabrication/installation labor, don't
work any better than a fuse. 99.9% of all breakers
installed at the factory go to the scrap yard
never having been required to keep a wire from
smoking. Why so much investment in a feature
that adds nothing to the utility/reliability
of your airplane?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | What Are You Thankful For...? |
Dear Listers,
Here in the United States, Thursday is our National day of Thanksgiving. Many
of us will be traveling to be with our families and friends to share in generous
feasts of plenty and giving thanks for many blessings that have been bestowed
upon us.
Many Listers have expressed over the last couple of weeks how thankful they are
for the Email Lists and Forums here on the Matronics servers and for all of the
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One of my favorite kind of
comments is when write to me and says something like, "Its the first thing I do
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to the purpose and function of these Lists. Its always great to hear I'm
not the only one that jumps
out of bed each morning to check my List email!!
Won't you take a minute today and show your appreciation for these Lists and for
their continued operation and upgrade?
The List Contribution Site is:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
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581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
Thank you in advance for your kind consideration,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | [Please Read] - Last Official Day of List Fund Raiser! |
Dear Listers,
It's November 30th and that always means a couple of things. Its my birthday again
- 56! :-) But it also means that it's that last official day of the Matronics
Email List Fund Raiser! If you been thinking about picking up one of those
really nice incentive gifts now is the time to jump on it!!
If you've been meaning to make a Contribution this month but have been putting
it off for some reason, NOW is the time!
I will be posting the List of Contributors in a few days, so you'll probably want
to be known as a person that supported the Lists!
I want to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution this year in
support of our Lists. It is your generosity that keeps this operation running
and I don't ever forget it.
The List Contribution Web Site is fast and easy. Please support our habit by making
your Contribution right now:
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Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
USA
Thank you in advance!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | HomeBrew Engine Monitor |
| From: | "andymeyer" <meyerkc135(at)gmail.com> |
So, A few years ago, a friend gave me an 8 channel EGT/CHT system that displayed
on a small 2.8" screen that was stuffed in a 5"x5"x2" box. A pain in my EZ,
but it gave me EGT/CHT. I added a panel meter to display MP.
Come the day of Arduino... I'm addicted, but a bit over my head in some of the
electronics - doing my best studying data sheets, etc..., but would love a second
or third set of eyes on what I'm doing. Overall plan - full fledged engine
monitor. 8)
So far - DAQ in back by the engine - A Teensy 3.6 spewing serial data via a MAX3232
to the cockpit.
8 AD8495's to read the thermocouples - I went this way since my thermocouples are
grounded. I almost went with the MAX31855, but that's not for grounded thermocouples.
2 analog channels to read the voltages from the Lightspeed ignition for MP and
Timing. 0 - ~0.5V signals
1 PWM channel to read RPM from the Lightspeed (10V PWM signal.
1 voltage divider to read the 5V oil pressure (EOP) signal at ~3 volts...
1 resistor divider to read the oil temp (EOT) thermister or RTD... I have a westach sender right now, plan to keep it. http://www.chiefaircraft.com/wes-399ot.html
1 spare resistor divider for carb heat in the future.
2 spare 3.3v analog ins for future fun. Any ideas here?
The Teensy 3.6 uses the two long lines of headers to mount right on top of the
base board... Skip a few pins on the left side to simplify routing...
This will send RS232 data up to the instrument panel to a Teensy4.0 driving 2 2.8"
cap touch screens. I've already got the breadboard for the displays working.
The Teensy4.0 will also collect fuel flow, air temp, Volts and Amps, and read
aviation data from the GPS.
I have an air data computer (Pitot, Static and temp) that will spew serial to my
Avidyne IFD540 and to the Teensy4.0 for fuel economy calculations, TAS, etc...
I designed the air data computer, but it was pretty basic. My magnetometer so far
has been a fail - can't get it to calibrate. :? I want to pull the trigger
on this board, but would really appreciate any inputs that the collective expertise
here may have. I'm way beyond myself on this one... I'm also more than willing
to share my design and code if that's of interest.
I designed this in Fritzing - easy for a hack to learn. Started trying Upverter,
but progress was slow so I went back to Fritzing.
Questions:
Is my ground plane right? Tried to split analog and digital...
Am I asking for trouble with any of my signal routing?
Resistor and cap values logical? Any reason not to use 1% resistors on a small
project like this?
The 10uF power supply cap - tantalum? or is there a better option for this these
days?
Files are located at:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Ue5_RDt7YqWEHsvDSzuea_owb4BEpKAi
Thanks!
Andy
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493701#493701
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/jlcsmt_sample_bom1_194.xlsx
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: HomeBrew Engine Monitor |
At 08:10 PM 12/1/2019, you wrote:
>
>So, A few years ago, a friend gave me an 8 channel EGT/CHT system
>that displayed on a small 2.8" screen that was stuffed in a 5"x5"x2"
>box. A pain in my EZ, but it gave me EGT/CHT. I added a panel meter
>to display MP.
>Come the day of Arduino... I'm addicted, but a bit over my head in
>some of the electronics - doing my best studying data sheets,
>etc..., but would love a second or third set of eyes on what I'm
>doing. Overall plan - full fledged engine monitor.
An ambitious project . . . kudos.
The easiest way to get a sense of your
projects qualities is through the schematics.
ECB art doesn't tell us much at this
stage.
>So far - DAQ in back by the engine - A Teensy 3.6 spewing serial
>data via a MAX3232 to the cockpit.
>I designed the air data computer, but it was pretty basic. My
>magnetometer so far has been a fail - can't get it to calibrate. :?
>I want to pull the trigger on this board, but would really
>appreciate any inputs that the collective expertise here may have.
>I'm way beyond myself on this one... I'm also more than willing to
>share my design and code if that's of interest.
Schematics with values first . . .
>Questions:
>Is my ground plane right? Tried to split analog and digital...
Not generally useful on small boards especially
since they eventually come together at Vss
anyhow.
>Am I asking for trouble with any of my signal routing?
>Resistor and cap values logical? Any reason not to use 1% resistors
>on a small project like this?
>The 10uF power supply cap - tantalum? or is there a better option
>for this these days?
chip tantalums are fine. let's see the road-maps-for-
electrons first . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 question |
| From: | "jdpnm" <jdp3322(at)gmail.com> |
I choose the Z13/8 instead of the Z12 because I have electrical dependent fuel
and ignition. The Z13 seemed closest to my configuration using the Ford regulator
rather than the B&C regulator.
The design concept is based on the article listed below. I wanted to have continuous
flight with least amount of pilot intervention.
>From "Electrical System Reliability 04/00
Adding an Aux alternator with auto switching
In normal flight both alternators are ON but the Aux alternator goes to sleep because
it's regulator thinks the bus voltage is too high. If the main alt fails
to support the ships loads, the bus voltage sags waking up the Aux Alt.
Reason I have circuit breakers on some items is because with a momentary switch,
I can short to ground items to lighten load, which will trip the breakers reducing
loads. Then if appropriate I can return function to selected items as the
situation permits, By resetting the individual CB.
Cost fuse vs CB is not an issue as I have the CB already. Im also using circuit
breaker switches for some items and fuse for some other items.
My main question is how to get over voltage protection to work individually for
each alternator. It would seem that if one alternator went high it would trip
both field breakers. I think I need to monitor each output before it guts to
the buss. However I could just let it trip both field breakers and the reset on.
if it trips again reset the other. but that requires more pilot intervention.
Any reason a low voltage warning light cant be installed with a resistor of of
the terminal I of the ford regulator? I think that is what ford does.
> I'm doing 2 electrical energized field alternators (small frame 53A), one adjustable
regulator, one non adjustable regulator, 2 OVM-14 modules, one battery
off the Z13/8 dwg.
If you have two, hefty alternators then
Z12 is the better option.
> I have two 5 amp Klixon circuit breakers for the fields.
Okay
> My question is about the OVM-14. If both alternators were in output mode due
to low voltage then one went into over voltage, how do I get the OVM-14s to only
trip the circuit for the one that is over voltage? It seems like both field
circuits would trip the CB.
You don't run both alternators at the same time.
Run only the main alternator until you get a
low volts warning then turn main alternator
OFF, aux alternator ON>
> Second question is about eBus.
>
> I have Circuit breakers for many things. Instead of a second bus, I was thinking
of a momentary switch connected to the load side of all things that could
be shut off in battery saving mode. Pressing the switch would trip the breakers
for unnecessary items which could be individually turned back on if required.
would a switch be adequate or should a 704-1 relay be used to handle the shorting
load.
I'm curious as to why Z12 is un-attractive as-published?
What shortcomings in Z12 beg rectification?
Also, aside from crow-bar field breakers, why
not fuse blocks? Breakers take up space, add
a lot of fabrication/installation labor, don't
work any better than a fuse. 99.9% of all breakers
installed at the factory go to the scrap yard
never having been required to keep a wire from
smoking. Why so much investment in a feature
that adds nothing to the utility/reliability
of your airplane?
Bob . . .[/quote]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493716#493716
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: HomeBrew Engine Monitor |
| From: | "andymeyer" <meyerkc135(at)gmail.com> |
Well Bob, That's the funny thing. I got so frustrated at the schematic tools that
I skipped that step, but I'll go back to it 'cause I know it's the right thing
to do. Let me see if I can get something that's understandable.
Andy
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493719#493719
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: HomeBrew Engine Monitor |
At 08:23 PM 12/4/2019, you wrote:
>
>Well Bob, That's the funny thing. I got so frustrated at the
>schematic tools that I skipped that step, but I'll go back to it
>'cause I know it's the right thing to do. Let me see if I can get
>something that's understandable.
>
>Andy
I suggest that a 'program' is not
necessary and, unless you're really
'salty' with one, clumsiness of
implementation gets in the way of
design deliberations.
Get a tablet of quad-ruled paper,
a #2 pencil, straight edge and a
'pink pearl' eraser.
Sketch your schematic in functionality
blocks. Download this drawing for
an example.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Misc/9018-600D_DACard_P1.pdf
Here's the signal conditioning card for
a Arduino based DAS system. It took three
pages to define all the functions for an
8 channel i/o shield. Do your design in similar
fashion . . . push and pull the ideas around
on paper with a draw/erase capability that
is probably faster than a CAD program.
When the details are stacked up to a good stopping
point, scan the pages and post to the List.
Then folks here can begin to compare your
handiwork with their own knowledge and
experience for the development of suggestions.
A Pentel 0.9MM HB pencil and Pink Pearl are
my own first-line design tools.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 question |
At 10:47 AM 12/4/2019, you wrote:
>
>I choose the Z13/8 instead of the Z12 because I
>have electrical dependent fuel and ignition. The
>Z13 seemed closest to my configuration using the
>Ford regulator rather than the B&C regulator.
??? Z13 vs. Z12 has nothing to do with
the style of regulator or electrical
dependency of engine.
Z-13 is specifically designed to MINIMIZE
endurance loads on a TINY alternator . . .
like the SD8.
>The design concept is based on the article
>listed below. I wanted to have continuous flight
>with least amount of pilot intervention.
>
> >From "Electrical System Reliability=9D 04/00
>Adding an Aux alternator with auto switching
>
>In normal flight both alternators are ON but the
>Aux alternator goes to sleep because it's
>regulator thinks the bus voltage is too high. If
>the main alt fails to support the ships loads,
>the bus voltage sags waking up the Aux Alt.
This narrative does not describe Z-13, it's
talking about Z-12 with a second alternator
driven by an SB-1 regulator (with autoswitch
features). Z-12 is also just fine using an
LR3 (or any other regulator). It just means
you have to flip a couple of switches when
the low-volts warning comes on.
>Reason I have circuit breakers on some items is
>because with a momentary switch, I can short to
>ground items to lighten load, which will trip
>the breakers reducing loads. Then if appropriate
>I can return function to selected items as the
>situation permits, By resetting the individual CB.
>Cost fuse vs CB is not an issue as I have the CB
>already. I=99m also using circuit breaker
>switches for some items and fuse for some other items.
Breaker-switches have a poor track record
in airplanes. They cost Beech a bucket-load
of money when the proved less-than-robust in
about 15 production-years of Bonanzas and Barons.
>My main question is how to get over voltage
>protection to work individually for each
>alternator. It would seem that if one alternator
>went high it would trip both field breakers. I
>think I need to monitor each output before it
>guts to the buss. However I could just let it
>trip both field breakers and the reset on. if it
>trips again reset the other. but that requires more pilot intervention.
Your worries about 'pilot intervention' are
mystifying. One presumes that pilots do things
based on knowledge, experience and planning.
Actions needed to bring a standby alternator on
line are trivial and NOT and emergency. When
the low volts light comes on, your properly
maintained battery will shoulder the loads while
you finish your cup of coffee and turn off the
MP3 player.
>Any reason a low voltage warning light can=99t
>be installed with a resistor of of the terminal
>=9CI=9D of the ford regulator? I think that is what ford does.
>
>
The FORD regulator warning light pin is
next to useless in airplanes. You need one and
only one low volts warning light on the main
bus. If you have an LR3 regulator on your main
alternator, that light is built in. Recommend
you use Z12 and I would discourage the use
of breaker-switches.
Any idea of fiddling with breakers in flight
for load shedding sorta admits that you
don't have a plan-B for abnormal operations.
Z-12 with two FAT alternators say's you'll
never need to do load shedding except for battery-
only ops after having lost both alternators . . .
an exceedingly unlikely condition.
You're going to run out of gas or fly into
convective weather before you loose two
alternators on a single flight.
Your engine loads should run off the
battery bus.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 question |
>
>In normal flight both alternators are ON but the Aux alternator goes
>to sleep because it's regulator thinks the bus voltage is too high.
>If the main alt fails to support the ships loads, the bus voltage
>sags waking up the Aux Alt.
P.S. If you're using B&C alternator controllers
in Z-12, the ov control systems are 'selective
trip' . . . when an ov condition is detected,
each ov system looks to see if 'my alternator' has
field voltage on it. If so, then the 'my regulator'
is bad and I trip only 'my alternator'.
If the field voltage is low or zero, the
ov condition is generated by failure of the 'other
regulator' it is expect to manage it's own
shutdown operation.
In an artfully designed multi-alternator system,
it's easy to preclude tripping of both systems
during an ov event.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 question |
| From: | "racerjerry" <gnking2(at)verizon.net> |
> Reason I have circuit breakers on some items is because with a momentary switch,
I can short to ground items to lighten load, which will trip the breakers
reducing loads. Then if appropriate I can return function to selected items as
the situation permits, By resetting the individual CB.
>
PURPOSELY shorting out circuit breakers is generally not a good idea and will cause
them to degrade. Shorting, for rare over-voltage events is acceptable, but
repeated high current events could cause a circuit breaker to malfunction;
even possibly welding contacts closed.
A shorting switch is even more susceptible to arc damage and welding of contacts.
This reminds me of an Underwriter's Laboratory report describing a homeowner that
"tested" his circuit breakers yearly using a screwdriver. His house burned
down as a direct result.
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493726#493726
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 question |
>
>PURPOSELY shorting out circuit breakers is generally not a good idea
>and will cause them to degrade. Shorting, for rare over-voltage
>events is acceptable, but repeated high current events could cause a
>circuit breaker to malfunction; even possibly welding contacts closed.
An urban technomyth completely unsupported by
the physics and over a century of practice.
A quality circuit breaker will find its
way onto Qualified Products Lists (QPL) for
government/military purchase by DEMONSTRATING
anh ability to OPEN a faulted line supplied by
a source current hundreds of times greater
than the breaker's trip-rating. An exemplar
table of qualifications for the Klixon 7274
series breakers reads as follows:
Emacs!
A 5A breaker upstream of a crowbar OV protection
system is qualified in systems capable of up to 800
Amps of fault current. A typical ov trip current
in a GA aircraft with crowbar OV management is
on the order of 150 amps.
Beech did crowbar OV management in a regulator I
proposed for the single-engine, turbine prototype
back about 1980. Of ALL the contemporary OV management
systems on hand at the time, my prototype was the only
one to manage a series of 50 OV events at the rate
of one event every two minutes. After the test, the
'abused' breaker still tested to design specs.
>A shorting switch is even more susceptible to arc damage and welding
>of contacts.
Do you mean a switch that closes a fault against
a high current source source, or a switch used to open a
a high current condition?
Contacts used to 'break' a faulted circuit, such
as those used in a breaker, may indeed suffer arc
damage if used to open a condition beyond the device's
ratings (see Endurance and Interrupt ratings above).
The crowbar OVM system that flies now in thousands
of OBAM and TC aircraft were designed and tested to
stay will within those limits.
>This reminds me of an Underwriter's Laboratory report describing a
>homeowner that "tested" his circuit breakers yearly using a
>screwdriver. His house burned down as a direct result.
I've heard several such stories over the years . . . all
of which argue with contemporary design and qualification
practices for modern breakers, switches and relays.
I'd need to see the published failure analysis on
this . . . sounds like an urban myth
to me.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 question |
Graybeards here on the List will recall some
animated discussions about 14 years ago on the
topic of 'abused breakers' in crowbar ov
protection systems.
Here's a white paper I generated as a contribution
to those discussions:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Crowbar_OV_Protection/DC_Power_System_Dynamics_C.pdf
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 question |
| From: | "jdpnm" <jdp3322(at)gmail.com> |
thanks Bob.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493730#493730
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 question |
| From: | "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net> |
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> At 10:47 AM 12/4/2019, you wrote:
>
>
... You need one and
only one low volts warning light on the main
bus. If you have an LR3 regulator on your main
alternator, that light is built in.
Bob . . .[/quote]
At the time of my installation, I thought that alternator 1 needed LVW through
the LR3 reg.
Didn't think that the LR3 was monitoring the main bus so installed AEC 9005 LVW
for Alt 2/Ford reg.
Now I have redundant LVW [Embarassed]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493732#493732
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/redundant_lvw_969.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pat Little <roughleg(at)gmail.com> |
Does anyone have experience with the Aircraft Extras relay board? I am
considering two flap switches on my panel (Zenith STOL 750), one for pilot
and one for instructor, which would require a relay deck to interface to
the flap motor. The motor has a full-stall draw of 4A, so it is way beyond
the 1A rating of the Ray Allen relay deck. The Aircraft Extras unit is
rated at 10A so that should not be a problem, but I was wondering if they
have a good track record for reliability, ease of installation, etc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 12:49 PM 12/11/2019, you wrote:
>Does anyone have experience with the Aircraft Extras relay board? I
>am considering two flap switches on my panel (Zenith STOL 750), one
>for pilot and one for instructor, which would require a relay deck
>to interface to the flap motor. The motor has a full-stall draw of
>4A, so it is way beyond the 1A rating of the Ray Allen relay deck.
>The Aircraft Extras unit is rated at 10A so that should not be a
>problem, but I was wondering if they have a good track record for
>reliability, ease of installation, etc.
Buy a couple of these:
https://tinyurl.com/u2yld6d
wire them like this:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Flaps/Flaps.pdf
Inexpensive, works good, lasts a long time
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pat Little <roughleg(at)gmail.com> |
That looks great, Bob. I guess I could use these for my trim system too,
less $ than the RAC relay deck..
I see that the 12V version of the unit you linked to is out of stock -
should I look for any 5-pin automotive relay with similar specs, or is
there something special about this one?
I tweaked your wiring diagram for my 2-switch setup:
[image: 2-switch flap wiring.jpg]
On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 9:39 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 12:49 PM 12/11/2019, you wrote:
>
> Does anyone have experience with the Aircraft Extras relay board? I am
> considering two flap switches on my panel (Zenith STOL 750), one for pilot
> and one for instructor, which would require a relay deck to interface to
> the flap motor. The motor has a full-stall draw of 4A, so it is way beyond
> the 1A rating of the Ray Allen relay deck. The Aircraft Extras unit is
> rated at 10A so that should not be a problem, but I was wondering if they
> have a good track record for reliability, ease of installation, etc.
>
>
> Buy a couple of these:
>
> https://tinyurl.com/u2yld6d
>
> wire them like this:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Flaps/Flaps.pdf
>
> Inexpensive, works good, lasts a long time
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com> |
Pat does this allow for "=C3=AFnstructor" override?
Best...
Bob Verwey
082 331 2727
On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 at 08:23, Pat Little wrote:
> That looks great, Bob. I guess I could use these for my trim system too,
> less $ than the RAC relay deck..
> I see that the 12V version of the unit you linked to is out of stock -
> should I look for any 5-pin automotive relay with similar specs, or is
> there something special about this one?
> I tweaked your wiring diagram for my 2-switch setup:
> [image: 2-switch flap wiring.jpg]
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 9:39 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 12:49 PM 12/11/2019, you wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone have experience with the Aircraft Extras relay board? I am
>> considering two flap switches on my panel (Zenith STOL 750), one for pil
ot
>> and one for instructor, which would require a relay deck to interface to
>> the flap motor. The motor has a full-stall draw of 4A, so it is way beyo
nd
>> the 1A rating of the Ray Allen relay deck. The Aircraft Extras unit is
>> rated at 10A so that should not be a problem, but I was wondering if the
y
>> have a good track record for reliability, ease of installation, etc.
>>
>>
>>
>> Buy a couple of these:
>>
>> https://tinyurl.com/u2yld6d
>>
>> wire them like this:
>>
>> http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Flaps/Flaps.pdf
>>
>> Inexpensive, works good, lasts a long time
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Flap relay (!!!CORRECTION!!!) |
At 12:49 PM 12/11/2019, you wrote:
Does anyone have experience with the Aircraft Extras relay board? I
am considering two flap switches on my panel (Zenith STOL 750), one
for pilot and one for instructor, which would require a relay deck to
interface to the flap motor. The motor has a full-stall draw of 4A,
so it is way beyond the 1A rating of the Ray Allen relay deck. The
Aircraft Extras unit is rated at 10A so that should not be a problem,
but I was wondering if they have a good track record for reliability,
ease of installation, etc.
Buy a couple of these:
https://tinyurl.com/u2yld6d
wire them like this:
Corrected bad link from previous posting . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Flaps/Flaps%208.pdf
Inexpensive, works good, lasts a long time
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 01:13 AM 12/12/2019, you wrote:
>Pat does this allow for "=C3=AFnstructor" override?
Yes . . . if BOTH switches are operated
but in opposing directions . . . the motor
simply stops.
>On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 at 08:23, Pat Little
><roughleg(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>That looks great, Bob. I guess I could use these
>for my trim system too, less $ than the RAC relay deck..
>I see that the 12V version of the unit you
>linked to is out of stock - should I look for
>any 5-pin automotive relay with similar specs,
>or is there something special about this one?
>I tweaked your wiring diagram for my 2-switch setup:
Check the corrected link for the intended
wiring diagram.
Nothing 'special' . . . any of the 12v, 5-pin
devices will do nicely. Some are offered with
a mating plug and wire harness which has some
advantages but sorta complicates diode installation.
But still doable.
Going right to the relay pins with fast-on terminals
lets you mount the diodes right at the relays . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 01:13 AM 12/12/2019, you wrote:
>Pat does this allow for "=C3=AFnstructor" override?
Yes . . . if BOTH switches are operated
but in opposing directions . . . the motor
simply stops.
>On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 at 08:23, Pat Little
><roughleg(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>That looks great, Bob. I guess I could use these
>for my trim system too, less $ than the RAC relay deck..
>I see that the 12V version of the unit you
>linked to is out of stock - should I look for
>any 5-pin automotive relay with similar specs,
>or is there something special about this one?
>I tweaked your wiring diagram for my 2-switch setup:
Check the corrected link for the intended
wiring diagram.
Nothing 'special' . . . any of the 12v, 5-pin
devices will do nicely. Some are offered with
a mating plug and wire harness which has some
advantages but sorta complicates diode installation.
But still doable.
Going right to the relay pins with fast-on terminals
lets you mount the diodes right at the relays . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pat Little <roughleg(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Flap relay (!!!CORRECTION!!!) |
Thanks for the revised drawing Bob. I hadn't thought of diodes, but that
makes sense for the flap motor. Do you think diodes would be necessary for
a (much smaller) RAC trim motor?
As it happens, the relay you linked to on eBay is now back in stock...
On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 6:21 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 12:49 PM 12/11/2019, you wrote:
> Does anyone have experience with the Aircraft Extras relay board? I am
> considering two flap switches on my panel (Zenith STOL 750), one for pilot
> and one for instructor, which would require a relay deck to interface to
> the flap motor. The motor has a full-stall draw of 4A, so it is way beyond
> the 1A rating of the Ray Allen relay deck. The Aircraft Extras unit is
> rated at 10A so that should not be a problem, but I was wondering if they
> have a good track record for reliability, ease of installation, etc.
>
>
> Buy a couple of these:
>
> https://tinyurl.com/u2yld6d
>
> wire them like this:
>
>
> Corrected bad link from previous posting . . .
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Flaps/Flaps%208.pdf
>
>
> Inexpensive, works good, lasts a long time
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 01:13 AM 12/12/2019, you wrote:
>Pat does this allow for "=C3=AFnstructor" override?
Yes . . . if BOTH switches are operated
but in opposing directions . . . the motor
simply stops.
>On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 at 08:23, Pat Little
><roughleg(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>That looks great, Bob. I guess I could use these
>for my trim system too, less $ than the RAC relay deck..
>I see that the 12V version of the unit you
>linked to is out of stock - should I look for
>any 5-pin automotive relay with similar specs,
>or is there something special about this one?
>I tweaked your wiring diagram for my 2-switch setup:
Check the corrected link for the intended
wiring diagram.
Nothing 'special' . . . any of the 12v, 5-pin
devices will do nicely. Some are offered with
a mating plug and wire harness which has some
advantages but sorta complicates diode installation.
But still doable.
Going right to the relay pins with fast-on terminals
lets you mount the diodes right at the relays . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Flap relay (!!!CORRECTION!!!) |
At 09:52 AM 12/12/2019, you wrote:
>Thanks for the revised drawing Bob. I hadn't thought of diodes, but
>that makes sense for the flap motor. Do you think diodes would be
>necessary for a (much smaller) RAC trim motor?
>As it happens, the relay you linked to on eBay is now back in stock...
The diodes have nothing to do with the motor . . .
the diodes clamp off inductive de-energizing spikes
from the relay coils.
Check out this library of articles on the topic:
https://tinyurl.com/rw2juw8
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM |
| From: | "Argonaut36" <fmlibrino(at)msn.com> |
Thanks for all the explanations and recommendations. I come back only now because
I wanted to fly one more time to do a few additional tests.
This is what I observed today:
Tachometer reads about 60-70 rpm slow (I checked it with a Trutach tachometer
that is supposed to be much more accurate than the airplane tachometer). So the
500 RPM idle that I previously reported is in reality 560-570.
When I throttle back to idle during engine warm-up, the voltmeter was reading 14.4
volts and not battery voltage, which I found disconcerting.
The voltmeter reads 14.4-14.5 V on the ground and 14.2 V in flight with the same
electrical loads
The alternator stopped operating on the runway after landing as in the recent previous
flights. Landing was intentionally as smooth as I could in order not
to cause a bad contact (if existing) to open.
After getting off the runway I tried (twice) to reset the alternator by turning
off all the electrical equipment including the master and then turning everything
on again. The alternator did not come online.
I contacted the maker of the voltage regulator. They said that alternator is supposed
to go offline at a very low RPM, but it should come back on, when the
RPM is increased. This is not the case with my alternator!
This alternator was installed recently. It is a factory refurbished alternator.
The previous alternator was also going offline, but not just after landing.
I replaced it, because it had already 800 hours on it, hoping that the new one
would not go offline.
The recommended tests are a bit complicated for me to perform. Access is difficult
in my airplane and it takes long time to disassemble and re-assemble.
I plan on bumping up the idle to 650-700 RPM and doing another test flight.
Thanks in advance for any additional suggestions and comments
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493795#493795
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
A good test is to measure the alternator field voltage, preferably at the alternator
when it is offline and while engine is running.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493796#493796
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Also monitor the voltage regulator input voltage.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493797#493797
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Intermittent problems are difficult to troubleshoot. It is easy to jump to false
conclusions. The problem could be a lose connection.
One likely suspect is the alternator on-off switch, which in this case might be
one half of the master switch.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493799#493799
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM |
Sounds to me like a heat soak could be affecting solid state components in
the ALT or regulator.=C2- Could you heat soak both with a heat gun or ha
ir dryer before starting and doing a static run-up?
sn.com> wrote:
Thanks for all the explanations and recommendations.=C2- I come back only
now because I wanted to fly one more time to do a few additional tests.
This is what I observed today:
Tachometer reads about 60-70 rpm slow=C2- (I checked it with a Trutach ta
chometer that is supposed to be much more accurate than the airplane tachom
eter).=C2- So the 500 RPM idle that I previously reported is in reality 5
60-570.
When I throttle back to idle during engine warm-up, the voltmeter was readi
ng 14.4 volts and not battery voltage, which I found disconcerting.
The voltmeter reads 14.4-14.5 V on the ground and 14.2 V in flight with the
same electrical loads
The alternator stopped operating on the runway after landing as in the rece
nt previous flights.=C2- Landing was intentionally as smooth as I could i
n order not to cause a bad contact (if existing) to open.
After getting off the runway I tried (twice) to reset the alternator by tur
ning off all the electrical equipment including the master and then turning
everything on again.=C2- The alternator did not come online.
I contacted the maker of the voltage regulator.=C2- They said that altern
ator is supposed to go offline at a very low RPM, but it should come back o
n, when the RPM is increased.=C2- This is not the case with my alternator
!
This alternator was installed recently.=C2- It is a factory refurbished a
lternator.=C2- The previous alternator was also going offline, but not ju
st after landing.=C2- I replaced it, because it had already 800 hours on
it, hoping that the new one would not go offline.
The recommended tests are a bit complicated for me to perform.=C2- Access
is difficult in my airplane and it takes long time to disassemble and re-a
ssemble.
I plan on bumping up the idle to 650-700 RPM and doing another test flight.
Thanks in advance for any additional suggestions and comments
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493795#493795
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
-
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "georgeevans" <ggeorgeevans2(at)gmail.com> |
Writing is rather hard and a complex process that always demands a lot of time
and effort. Moreover, in some cases, it requires specific skills and knowledge.
Speaking about my personal experience I would say it was challenging. Luckily,
once I accidentally found one useful source where everyone can find a lot of
useful tips and even aspiration nursing care plan (https://essayslab.com/risk-for-aspiration-nursing-care-plan.html).
--------
Find more interesting here
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493802#493802
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "skywagon185guy ." <skywagon185(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM |
This is a comment only about your tach error that you mentioned.
I am assuming that the tach is the original Cessna tach that is drive by a
cable like a speedometer.
Those are usually factory calibrated to be "accurate" in mid to high rpm
range.
Do to age, meter movement drag, etc. they loose accuracy.
Interestingly, if you want, the tach can be adjusted to be accurate in the
range you pick. The tach mechanism is regulated by a coiled spring, much
like a watch movement, and the spring setting can be adjusted.
The "fix" is... remove the tach from the panel. Connect it is a portable
drill motor rotating in the "correct" direction.
And, you need an accurate rpm calibrated strobe light. You probably have a
friend with one.
Trick is to run the portable drill at the desired rpm verified by the
accurate strobe, next viewing the tach error and carefully adjusting the
tach spring tension such that is reads accurately in the range you want.
Must likely, it will not be fully accurate over all ranges of rpm.
On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 6:51 PM Argonaut36 wrote:
>
> Thanks for all the explanations and recommendations. I come back only now
> because I wanted to fly one more time to do a few additional tests.
> This is what I observed today:
>
> Tachometer reads about 60-70 rpm slow (I checked it with a Trutach
> tachometer that is supposed to be much more accurate than the airplane
> tachometer). So the 500 RPM idle that I previously reported is in reality
> 560-570.
> When I throttle back to idle during engine warm-up, the voltmeter was
> reading 14.4 volts and not battery voltage, which I found disconcerting.
> The voltmeter reads 14.4-14.5 V on the ground and 14.2 V in flight with
> the same electrical loads
> The alternator stopped operating on the runway after landing as in the
> recent previous flights. Landing was intentionally as smooth as I could in
> order not to cause a bad contact (if existing) to open.
> After getting off the runway I tried (twice) to reset the alternator by
> turning off all the electrical equipment including the master and then
> turning everything on again. The alternator did not come online.
> I contacted the maker of the voltage regulator. They said that alternator
> is supposed to go offline at a very low RPM, but it should come back on,
> when the RPM is increased. This is not the case with my alternator!
>
> This alternator was installed recently. It is a factory refurbished
> alternator. The previous alternator was also going offline, but not just
> after landing. I replaced it, because it had already 800 hours on it,
> hoping that the new one would not go offline.
> The recommended tests are a bit complicated for me to perform. Access is
> difficult in my airplane and it takes long time to disassemble and
> re-assemble.
> I plan on bumping up the idle to 650-700 RPM and doing another test flight.
> Thanks in advance for any additional suggestions and comments
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493795#493795
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Questions as I Design My Circuit Diagram |
| From: | "markfw" <markwheelermd(at)icloud.com> |
I am building an LSA Carbon Cub which will be electrically dependent. since I will
be flying only day VFR, I have followed Bob's advice and I am following the
KISS principle and wiring the plane like a C150 using the Z11 schematic as a
starting point.
The only things I know about electrical systems is what I have learned reading
Bob's book, so I am a total novice at this. As I design my own schematic I realize
that I have questions that I cannot answer. They may be dumb, and if so I
apologize.
1. I have read that all circuits should have overload protection to protect the
wire. When I look at Z11 there doesn't appear to be a fuse or CB on the wire
from the Battery Contactor to the Main Bus, nor on the wire from the Main Bus
to the Endurance Bus. What is the convention in use here?
2. I have read that alternators only deliver 80% of their rated power, so I am
missing 8 amps of power from my 40 amp rated Hartzell X-Drive. My 7 feet of 8AWG
wire back to the battery accounts for less than 1 amp of the loss. Where does
it go? Is this 80% number really true?
3. I am going to start with a single (big) EarthX battery in my plane. However
the battery compartment under the pilot's seat is easily accessible (the seat
tilts forward) and another EarthX would fit in nicely. I might want to add another
battery at some point in the future when I fly over water or mountains here
in the Northwest.
Bob has published elegant solutions to the 2 battery configuration, and I know
that he has forgotten more than I will ever know about aircraft electrics. However
I am wondering if there are reasons why I couldn't keep it simple and just
wire up a 200 amp Marine battery switch as a simple A/B flip flop to a second
battery? There probably are.
Thanks.
Mark
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493804#493804
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charles Kuss <chaskuss(at)yahoo.com> |
What BS is this? Obviously a members email has been hacked and a spammer ha
s posted this to the list. The affected member needs to update his antiviru
s software and run a full scan on his hard drive. Failing that the member n
eeds to be blocked to keep more of this garbage from cluttering up the list
.
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 4:03 PM, georgeevans wro
@gmail.com>
Writing is rather hard and a complex process that always demands a lot of t
ime and effort. Moreover, in some cases, it requires specific skills and kn
owledge. Speaking about my personal experience I would say it was challengi
ng. Luckily, once I accidentally found one useful source where everyone can
find a lot of useful tips and even aspiration nursing care plan (https://e
ssayslab.com/risk-for-aspiration-nursing-care-plan.html).
--------
Find more interesting=C2- here
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493802#493802
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
-
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Questions as I Design My Circuit Diagram |
At 04:19 PM 12/13/2019, you wrote:
>
>I am building an LSA Carbon Cub which will be electrically
>dependent. since I will be flying only day VFR, I have followed
>Bob's advice and I am following the KISS principle and wiring the
>plane like a C150 using the Z11 schematic as a starting point.
What have you changed and why?
>The only things I know about electrical systems is what I have
>learned reading Bob's book, so I am a total novice at this. As I
>design my own schematic I realize that I have questions that I
>cannot answer. They may be dumb, and if so I apologize.
>
>1. I have read that all circuits should have overload protection to
>protect the wire. When I look at Z11 there doesn't appear to be a
>fuse or CB on the wire from the Battery Contactor to the Main Bus,
>nor on the wire from the Main Bus to the Endurance Bus. What is the
>convention in use here?
The only wires needing protection are those
that feed some accessory from a source capable
of burning the wire.
Bus feeders (referred to here on the list as
'fat wires" are generally not at risk for
burning . . . there are no probable faults
'hard' enough to put those wires at risk
with one exception: Rolling your airplane up
in a ball on the rocks . . . which is why
the wire-burning source (battery) is expected
to be off line (battery master off) before
you hit the rocks.
Z11 is correct and complete as published.
>2. I have read that alternators only deliver 80% of their rated
>power, so I am missing 8 amps of power from my 40 amp rated Hartzell
>X-Drive. My 7 feet of 8AWG wire back to the battery accounts for
>less than 1 amp of the loss. Where does it go? Is this 80% number really true?
No. The general rule is that maximum
anticipated running loads for your airplane
should not be greater than 80% of the
alternator's ratings. This leaves 20% for
battery replenishment after takeoff.
Modern, light weight alternators generally
have much more snort than required by our
airplanes. Have you done a load analysis for
your project? In TC aircraft designs, this
is one of the FIRST studies started and
then maintained through certification. It's
a critical part of the certification process.
>3. I am going to start with a single (big) EarthX battery in my
>plane. However the battery compartment under the pilot's seat is
>easily accessible (the seat tilts forward) and another EarthX would
>fit in nicely. I might want to add another battery at some point in
>the future when I fly over water or mountains here in the Northwest.
What engine is in your airplane?
>
>
>Bob has published elegant solutions to the 2 battery configuration,
>and I know that he has forgotten more than I will ever know about
>aircraft electrics. However I am wondering if there are reasons why
>I couldn't keep it simple and just wire up a 200 amp Marine battery
>switch as a simple A/B flip flop to a second battery? There probably are.
This has been suggested many times here
on the List over the years. Given the
proximity of your battery to the cabin,
a manual switch is a perfectly acceptable
substituted for a master contactor. I took
dual instruction in a Piper TriPacer that
had manual switches for both the battery
master and the starter.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 05:57 PM 12/13/2019, you wrote:
>What BS is this? Obviously a members email has been hacked and a
>spammer has posted this to the list. The affected member needs to
>update his antivirus software and run a full scan on his hard drive.
>Failing that the member needs to be blocked to keep more of this
>garbage from cluttering up the list.
Just reading the email puts nobody's system
at risk. CLICKING on the link MIGHT present
a risk but why click on it?
Firewalls are not perfect. Matt's system has
to work overtime just to filter the constant
attacks. Two years ago, my outbound messages
would be accepted by the system in seconds
after hitting 'send'. Nowadays, it can take
up to a minute before the server gets around
to checking and accepting my outbound traffic.
I used to be able to drop out of my email client
seconds after sending a message. Now I have to
fight a 15-year old habit to close too quick
Need to leave client opened and minimized
before going off to do other things.
Bottom line . . . not worthy of much emotional
or practical capital. Unless
it's (1) somebody you know and (2) the
message topic/content is germane to our
efforts here on the List . . . . . don't
'click' . . . 'delete'.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Lead Wiring Component? |
At 09:08 PM 1/28/2019, you wrote:
>
>Thanks for the information. There is also a noise filter on the
>lead from the control switch to the (I) terminal on the
>regulator. They must not do any harm since the radio is
>clear. I'll just leave well enough alone.
>
>
Not a subscriber . . . ignore
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Pat Little <roughleg(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | ATO vs ATC fuses |
Is there a preference for our OBAM aircraft between ATO (housing open at
the bottom) and ATC (closed housing) fuses? I can imagine that when a fuse
blows some particles of metal might get spewed out of an open housing, but
I have no idea if this is the case.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ATO vs ATC fuses |
Interesting question. At the same time I'd like to ask if there is any
downside to using mini fuses.
On Fri, Dec 13, 2019, 19:04 Pat Little wrote:
> Is there a preference for our OBAM aircraft between ATO (housing open at
> the bottom) and ATC (closed housing) fuses? I can imagine that when a fuse
> blows some particles of metal might get spewed out of an open housing, but
> I have no idea if this is the case.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Questions as I Design My Circuit Diagram |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
2. An alternator will deliver 100 percent of its rated power if the load
demands it. However, the alternator could overheat if fully loaded unless it
is
adequately cooled. Amperage is not lost over a length of wire, voltage is
lost. Where does it go? Lost energy is turned into heat that warms the wire.
8 AWG wire should carry 40 amps with minimal voltage loss. Loading an
alternator to 80 percent of its capacity is a rule of thumb to ensure that it
does not overheat. Modern avionics in a VFR Carbon Cub are unlikely to
draw more 10 amps.
-
3. After engine start, the aircraft electrical system gets its power from the
alternator, not the battery. The battery serves as a backup in case the
alternator fails. Usually a backup to a backup is not necessary in a VFR aircraft.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493812#493812
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com> |
Are switch ratings related to power? I'm wondering if I can assume that a
12A/28VDC rating would be equivalent to a 24A/12VDC rating. The switch I'm
interested in is rated at 125VAC and 28VDC but not 14V. Is 24A a safe
assumption at 14V? Or is there more to it? This is the switch:
https://www.mcmaster.com/7337k98
--Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Switch ratings? |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
A conservative rule of thumb is that the 14 volt DC rating is equal to the 120
volt AC rating. I would feel comfortable switching up to 20 amps with this
switch. Above that, consider using a relay. A switch that carries more than
its rated current is not going to immediately self destruct. But its life will
be
reduced. Instead of 100,000 operations, its life may be reduced to 50,000
operations. Even so, the switch could outlive the airplane.
If switching an inductive load, install an arc suppression diode across the
inductor coil to reduce sparking across the switch contacts.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493818#493818
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Switch ratings? |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 12/13/2019 11:19 PM, David Saylor wrote:
> Are switchratings related to power? I'm wondering if I can assume
> that a 12A/28VDC rating would be equivalent to a 24A/12VDC rating.
> TheswitchI'm interested in is rated at 125VAC and 28VDC but not
> 14V. Is 24A a safe assumption at 14V? Or is there more to it? This
> is the switch: https://www.mcmaster.com/7337k98
>
> --Dave
I wouldn't consider doing that. Switches have to deal with both arcing
(make/break) and the heat created by the current flowing through the
components of the switch. Loading the switch with twice the rated
current sounds like serious abuse to me.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Switch ratings? |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
There is a typo above and the switch is actually rated for 15 amps at 28 volts
DC.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493820#493820
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Switch ratings? |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 12/13/2019 11:19 PM, David Saylor wrote:
> Are switchratings related to power? I'm wondering if I can assume
> that a 12A/28VDC rating would be equivalent to a 24A/12VDC rating.
> TheswitchI'm interested in is rated at 125VAC and 28VDC but not
> 14V. Is 24A a safe assumption at 14V? Or is there more to it? This
> is the switch: https://www.mcmaster.com/7337k98
>
> --Dave
If you can live without the locking feature, here are a few 25A
possibilities
https://www.newark.com/w/c/switches-relays/switches/toggle-switches?switch-operation=on-on&contact-configuration=dpdt&contact-current-max=25a
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch ratings? |
Thank you Charlie and Joe. Good advice. Looks like I'm going switch
shopping!
On Sat, Dec 14, 2019 at 10:39 AM Charlie England
wrote:
> ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
>
> On 12/13/2019 11:19 PM, David Saylor wrote:
> > Are switch ratings related to power? I'm wondering if I can assume
> > that a 12A/28VDC rating would be equivalent to a 24A/12VDC rating.
> > The switch I'm interested in is rated at 125VAC and 28VDC but not
> > 14V. Is 24A a safe assumption at 14V? Or is there more to it? This
> > is the switch: https://www.mcmaster.com/7337k98
> >
> > --Dave
> If you can live without the locking feature, here are a few 25A
> possibilities
>
> https://www.newark.com/w/c/switches-relays/switches/toggle-switches?switch-operation=on-on&contact-configuration=dpdt&contact-current-max=25a
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Questions as I Design My Circuit Diagram |
| From: | "markfw" <markwheelermd(at)icloud.com> |
Bob,
Thank you for your reply.
I changed Z11 in four ways:
1. I am using an EFI system so I enlarged the Endurance Bus to incorporate all
of the EFI component circuits;
2. I added a Lighting Bus with C/B's just to make wiring the panel easier and because
I was out of fuse positions on my Port side fuse block;
3. I did not incorporate the E-Bus alternate feed;
4. I used SSR relays rather than contactors.
I assumed that Z11 was correct. I was only asking about the reasoning about when
to use fuses for my own education.
Does 8AWG wire qualify as "fat" in this context of circuit protection?
I will have an O-340 from LyCon as my engine.
My load analysis is attached to this e-mail.
Joe, I was not asking about a second battery to backup my primary battery. I was
asking about it as a way to extend my flight time in the Alternator Out situation.
With my EFI my ALT OUT cruise power consumption is 20A so a 7 pound ETX1200
battery would give me approximately an hour of flight time, which should
work for most of my needs. I was just exploring what it would take to add in a
second battery for certain higher risk trips over water or mountains so I would
not have to carry that extra weight all of the time.
Mark
P.S. Is there any way to respond to replies to an original post individually rather
than as a group?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493823#493823
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/current_electric_loads__v5_214.xlsx
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ATO vs ATC fuses |
At 07:56 PM 12/13/2019, you wrote:
>Is there a preference for our OBAM aircraft between ATO (housing
>open at the bottom) and ATC (closed housing) fuses? I can imagine
>that when a fuse blows some particles of metal might get spewed out
>of an open housing, but I have no idea if this is the case.
Either is suited to our purposes.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ATO vs ATC fuses |
At 08:07 PM 12/13/2019, you wrote:
>Interesting question. At the same time I'd like to ask if there is
>any downside to using mini fuses.
Not aware of any pre-fabricated panels
for the mini fuses. You're looking for ease
of installation and robustness. The fuseblocks
eliminate breaker panels and bus bars while
allowing the distribution to be mounted out
of sight/mind.
Any 'savings' for down-sizing to mini fuses
would be small.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch ratings? |
At 11:19 PM 12/13/2019, you wrote:
>Are switch=C2 ratings related to power?=C2 I'm
>wondering if I can assume that a 12A/28VDC
>rating would be equivalent to a 24A/12VDC
>rating.=C2 The=C2 switch=C2 I'm interested in is
>rated at 125VAC and 28VDC but not 14V.=C2 Is 24A
>a safe assumption at 14V?=C2 Or is there more to
>it?=C2 This is the switch:=C2
>=C2 https://www.mcmaster.com/7337k98
>
>--Dave
That switch is fine for about anything you want to
do in the airplane . . . but why this one? It's
rather expensive
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Desulfators and Lithium |
| From: | Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> |
I just had pointed out to me a study that lends something to the discussion:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318890311_Impact_of_Pulse_Voltage_as_Desulfator_to_Improve_Automotive_Lead_Acid_Battery_Capacity
I can't say that it appears definitive, nor particularly quantitative,
but at least attempted to study the subject.
On 10/22/2019 8:45 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 01:33 AM 10/21/2019, you wrote:
>> *I too have read many articles that both applaud and disprove the
>> desulfurization theory. What I more or less believe is the results
>> that many tell about where they get 6 or 7 years from batteries well
>> maintained with with BATTERY MINDER maintainers.*
>
> Yup, been using the wall-wart BM and BT maintainers
> for decades enjoying very good service lives on
> a constellation of laboratory/test batteries.
> But those were batteries that lived in a house
> and were called upon perhaps a dozen hours/year
> or to jump start a vehicle.
>
>> *In my 50 years of dealing with batteries, I get about 3 or 4 years
>> from flooded batteries and sealed
>> batteries, but I have gotten 5 to 6 with the BATTERY MINDERS.*
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "skywagon185guy ." <skywagon185(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Desulfators and Lithium |
Battery Minders (maintainers)
I too am a big fan of using a Maintainer on any type of lead acid battery.
Been using them for years also with very good results EXCEPT for one
problem...
The Maintainer itself uses standard wall ac power, however, there is a
feedback that uses dc associated with the battery. The problem comes when
the main power stops, i.e. GFI controlled ac gets triggered off, main ac
power is cut, etc.
If this condition is not caught early enough, by disconnecting the
Maintainer, it will slowly discharge the battery until it is flat and quite
possibly damaged.
Maintainers are rarely checked once clipped on the battery as they are
dependable, except when primary ac power is dropped. I suggest to never
power the maintainer via a GFI controlled ac power plug as they are usually
on community circuits and subject to mysterious tripping. If no one is
present to notice and reset the fault, one will not be happy with the
results.....
On Sat, Dec 14, 2019 at 1:52 PM Kelly McMullen wrote:
> kellym(at)aviating.com>
>
> I just had pointed out to me a study that lends something to the
> discussion:
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318890311_Impact_of_Pulse_Voltag
e_as_Desulfator_to_Improve_Automotive_Lead_Acid_Battery_Capacity
>
> I can't say that it appears definitive, nor particularly quantitative,
> but at least attempted to study the subject.
>
> On 10/22/2019 8:45 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> > At 01:33 AM 10/21/2019, you wrote:
> >> *I too have read many articles that both applaud and disprove the
> >> desulfurization theory. What I =9Cmore or less=9D believe
is the results
> >> that many tell about where they get 6 or 7 years from batteries well
> >> maintained with with BATTERY MINDER maintainers.*
> >
> > Yup, been using the wall-wart BM and BT maintainers
> > for decades enjoying very good service lives on
> > a constellation of laboratory/test batteries.
> > But those were batteries that lived in a house
> > and were called upon perhaps a dozen hours/year
> > or to jump start a vehicle.
> >
> >> *In my 50 years of dealing with batteries, I get about 3 or 4 years
> >> from flooded batteries and sealed
> >> batteries, but I have gotten 5 to 6 with the BATTERY MINDERS.*
> >
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch ratings? |
At 11:19 PM 12/13/2019, you wrote:
>Are switch=C2 ratings related to power?=C2 I'm
>wondering if I can assume that a 12A/28VDC
>rating would be equivalent to a 24A/12VDC
>rating.=C2 The=C2 switch=C2 I'm interested in is
>rated at 125VAC and 28VDC but not 14V.=C2 Is 24A
>a safe assumption at 14V?=C2 Or is there more to
>it?=C2 This is the switch:=C2
>=C2 https://www.mcmaster.com/7337k98
>
>--Dave
That switch is fine for about anything you want to
do in the airplane . . . but why this one? It's
rather expensive
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM |
| From: | "Argonaut36" <fmlibrino(at)msn.com> |
Today the alternator went offline again after landing, despite a raised idle and
I was not able to reset it. I turned the engine off and I re-started it after
a few minutes. The alternator did not come online. So heat seems to be causing
the voltage regulator to cut off. My regulator is a VR371S. The S at the
end means sealed and, because it is sealed, it can be installed in the engine
compartment on the firewall. As pointed out by echristley, mine does not seem
to tolerate heat well.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493831#493831
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM |
| From: | "racerjerry" <gnking2(at)verizon.net> |
How is regulator grounded? The voltage regulator must be solidly grounded in order
to function. You might want to install an external ground wire from the
voltage regulator case directly to the alternator housing. Also, remove and clean
each wire terminal connection.
If problem is still present, run a temporary "test" wire from the alternator field
terminal into the cockpit allowing field voltage measurement. If alternator
shuts down with voltage present at the alternator field terminal, the alternator
is definitely at fault.
If there is no field voltage, the regulator is at fault OR as previously suggested,
no power is getting to the regulator. Poor contacts on the alternator side
of the master switch may be the culprit and it is not at all uncommon.
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493832#493832
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM |
At 06:38 AM 12/15/2019, you wrote:
>
>
>If there is no field voltage, the regulator is at fault OR as
>previously suggested, no power is getting to the regulator. Poor
>contacts on the alternator side of the master switch may be the
>culprit and it is not at all uncommon.
Right on!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM |
At 10:37 PM 12/14/2019, you wrote:
>
>Today the alternator went offline again after landing, despite a
>raised idle and I was not able to reset it. I turned the engine off
>and I re-started it after a few minutes. The alternator did not
>come online. So heat seems to be causing the voltage regulator to
>cut off. My regulator is a VR371S. The S at the end means 'sealed'
>and, because it is sealed, it can be installed in the engine
>compartment on the firewall. As pointed out by echristley, mine
>does not seem to tolerate heat well.
>
>
Troubleshooting an alternator system is
a process of divide and conquer. It's either
(1) a bad regulator or (2) alternator and just
maybe (3) wiring.
The first thing to do is make a temporary,
installation of a known-good regulator as
suggested previously. If practical, bring
a test-wire from alternator(s) field connection
into the cockpit and monitor voltage on that
wire.
If the problem repeats, what is the field
voltage after the condition presents?
If the problem doesn't repeat after a
few flights, then replace the regulator . . .
suggest you change models . . . perhaps
make a permanent installation of your
'test' regulator.
If it repeats and the field voltage is
high (greater than 6v) then the altenrator
is bad. If the voltage is low (probably
less than 1v) then either the regulator
is bad or wiring is bad. It's a 99%
probability that it's the regulator.
Until you conduct definitive testing,
you're at risk for spending a lot of
time chasing herds of insignificant
rabbits.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Desulfators and Lithium |
At 04:47 PM 12/14/2019, you wrote:
>Battery Minders (maintainers)
>I too am a big fan of using a Maintainer on any type of lead acid battery.
>Been using them for years also with very good
>results EXCEPT for one problem...
>The Maintainer itself uses standard wall ac
>power, however, there is a feedback that uses dc
>associated with the battery.=C2 The problem comes
>when the main power stops, i.e. GFI controlled
>ac gets triggered off, main ac power is cut, etc.
Not all maintainers are the same. To be sure, the
maintainer's internal circuits need to constantly
measure terminal voltage of the battery under test.
This implies some, albeit small current into the
monitoring system.
My latest/greatest BatteryMINDer seems to feature
some form of sampler disconnect when powered down.
I just measured the device's power-down back flow
and found it to be too small to measure if not zero.
>If this condition is not caught early enough, by
>disconnecting the Maintainer, it will slowly
>discharge the battery until it is flat and quite possibly damaged.
>Maintainers are rarely checked once clipped on
>the battery as they are dependable, except when
>primary ac power is dropped.=C2 I suggest to
>never power the maintainer via a GFI controlled
>ac power plug as they are usually on community
>circuits and subject to mysterious
>tripping.=C2 If no one is present to notice and
>reset=C2 the fault, one will not be happy with the results.....
Better yet . . . MEASURE the backflow current into
your favorite battery maintenance device. I would
hate to expend a lot of worry-capital building
a defense for a non-existent risk. I've got about
a half dozen maintainers in the mess-making-shop
some with histories that go back 20+ years.
If I can get out there yet this weekend, I'll
do back-flow measurements on the lots and report
findings here.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Questions as I Design My Circuit Diagram |
At 01:04 PM 12/14/2019, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>
>Thank you for your reply.
>
>I changed Z11 in four ways:
>1. I am using an EFI system so I enlarged the Endurance Bus to
>incorporate all of the EFI component circuits
Okay, in the 'endurance mode' what are your
design goals for battery only operations? The
E-bus plus Battery bus loads generally define
alternator-out loads. Not real clear from
the load analysis narrative.
>2. I added a Lighting Bus with C/B's just to make wiring the panel
>easier and because I was out of fuse positions on my Port side fuse block;
added cbs? Why not another small fuse
block?
>3. I did not incorporate the E-Bus alternate feed;
then you don't have an e-bus . . . it's just
an extension of the main bus.
>4. I used SSR relays rather than contactors.
Z-11 doesn't care what kind of contactor.
The Z drawings are about architecture and
failure mode effects mitigation.
>I assumed that Z11 was correct. I was only asking about the
>reasoning about when to use fuses for my own education.
Very good.
>Does 8AWG wire qualify as "fat" in this context of circuit protection?
yes
>I will have an O-340 from LyCon as my engine.
Do you have an otherwise unused vacuum pump
pad? Why not a second alternator?
>My load analysis is attached to this e-mail.
Do your injectors really draw 1.5A average or
6A for the suite of injectors?
>Joe, I was not asking about a second battery to backup my primary
>battery. I was asking about it as a way to extend my flight time in
>the Alternator Out situation. With my EFI my ALT OUT cruise power
>consumption is 20A so a 7 pound ETX1200 battery would give me
>approximately an hour of flight time, which should work for most of
>my needs. I was just exploring what it would take to add in a second
>battery for certain higher risk trips over water or mountains so I
>would not have to carry that extra weight all of the time.
An pad-driven alternator would easily carry
your anticipated system loads, have a lower
cost of ownership than a second battery. The
'e bus' goes away. Would recommend a battery
bus that would support all vital engine functions
so that the panel could be made 'max dark' without
killing the engine.
We would sure like to see a schematic
of this system. Schematics are the fundamental
language for FFA (Function and Failure Analysis).
It appears that you have a 50A b-lead breaker
on the panel? That hasn't been done on most TC
aircraft in decades . . . it's not illustrated
on any z-figure.
You speak to an 'essential bus' but with
no narrative or schematic as to how this
bus gets isolated for energy management
in an alternator-out condition?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Questions as I Design My Circuit Diagram |
On Sun, Dec 15, 2019 at 3:18 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 01:04 PM 12/14/2019, you wrote:
>
> markwheelermd(at)icloud.com>
>
> Bob,
>
> Thank you for your reply.
>
> I changed Z11 in four ways:
> 1. I am using an EFI system so I enlarged the Endurance Bus to incorporate
> all of the EFI component circuits
>
>
> Okay, in the 'endurance mode' what are your
> design goals for battery only operations? The
> E-bus plus Battery bus loads generally define
> alternator-out loads. Not real clear from
> the load analysis narrative.
>
> 2. I added a Lighting Bus with C/B's just to make wiring the panel easier
> and because I was out of fuse positions on my Port side fuse block;
>
>
> added cbs? Why not another small fuse
> block?
>
> 3. I did not incorporate the E-Bus alternate feed;
>
>
> then you don't have an e-bus . . . it's just
> an extension of the main bus.
>
> 4. I used SSR relays rather than contactors.
>
>
> Z-11 doesn't care what kind of contactor.
> The Z drawings are about architecture and
> failure mode effects mitigation.
>
> I assumed that Z11 was correct. I was only asking about the reasoning
> about when to use fuses for my own education.
>
>
> Very good.
>
>
> Does 8AWG wire qualify as "fat" in this context of circuit protection?
>
>
> yes
>
>
> I will have an O-340 from LyCon as my engine.
>
>
> Do you have an otherwise unused vacuum pump
> pad? Why not a second alternator?
>
>
> My load analysis is attached to this e-mail.
>
>
> Do your injectors really draw 1.5A average or
> 6A for the suite of injectors?
>
>
> Joe, I was not asking about a second battery to backup my primary battery.
> I was asking about it as a way to extend my flight time in the Alternator
> Out situation. With my EFI my ALT OUT cruise power consumption is 20A so a
> 7 pound ETX1200 battery would give me approximately an hour of flight time,
> which should work for most of my needs. I was just exploring what it would
> take to add in a second battery for certain higher risk trips over water or
> mountains so I would not have to carry that extra weight all of the time.
>
>
> An pad-driven alternator would easily carry
> your anticipated system loads, have a lower
> cost of ownership than a second battery. The
> 'e bus' goes away. Would recommend a battery
> bus that would support all vital engine functions
> so that the panel could be made 'max dark' without
> killing the engine.
>
> We would sure like to see a schematic
> of this system. Schematics are the fundamental
> language for FFA (Function and Failure Analysis).
> It appears that you have a 50A b-lead breaker
> on the panel? That hasn't been done on most TC
> aircraft in decades . . . it's not illustrated
> on any z-figure.
>
> You speak to an 'essential bus' but with
> no narrative or schematic as to how this
> bus gets isolated for energy management
> in an alternator-out condition?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Bob,
I can't directly address your Q about individual injector current draw.
They tend to 'peak' at each trigger, but duty cycle varies wildly, and how
they're operated varies wildly among control techniques (true timed
injection which is rare in a/c vs 'batch fire' vs 'semi-sequential' vs
??). But the alt engine guys have been flying auto-style electronic engine
control for a lot longer than the Lyc guys, and common numbers by numerous
guys flying this type of *system* for a high pressure fuel pump, injectors,
igniters, and computer would be 12-15 amps; likely leaning toward the high
side of that spread. I have a friend who's a retired P-W engineer who
tested his system in flight for battery-only operation. With a healthy
PC680, IIRC he flew for ~40 minutes before seeing voltage drop to near
'discharge state' before bringing the alternator back on line. I don't
recall what power setting he was using for the test. Obviously, operating
at higher power levels requires more energy for the various electronic bits.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Questions as I Design My Circuit Diagram |
| From: | "markfw" <markwheelermd(at)icloud.com> |
Bob,
My design goals for Alt Out operations are approximately 1 hour of flight time
to get on the ground while continuing use of my EFI, EFIS, EIS 1 radio and the
transponder.
As an overarching design constraint, I am LSA so I am weight sensitive in all of
my decisions.
I am using surface mounted fuse blocks on the cockpit quarter panels where I can
see if there has been a blown fuse because an LED lights up. No I don't intend
to change them in flight, but I want to know. I have a space constraint for
mounting another fuse block, so I decided to use C/B's. However, I will say that
I went back and forth on this and this morning I actually moved them onto
the existing fuse block rather than keeping some spare circuits. Weight is about
a wash either way.
It's clear that I don't understand the difference between an E-Bus and an Endurance
Bus. What I am calling an E-Bus is a bus fed by the battery that can power
my essential electrical needs (approximately 20 amps) for an hour. My main Bus
is on a switch so I can dump all of my non-essential loads easily. The Alt
Field is on a separate switch, so I would also turn that off.
I have attached my current schematic which is A WORK IN PROGRESS (wire gauges are
wrong, no grounds, no sheet for the EFI itself, etc). I do plan to submit it
here when I am happy with it. However it certainly is tough for you to give
me advice without any idea at all about what I am up to.
Since I am very weight conscious I decided early on that I would use the light
weight ECI accessory pad which does not provide a vacuum or prop governor. This
saves 1.5 pounds. The B&C SD-20 spine driven alternator is 5.75 pounds, plus
creates space issues for me under the cowl. I thought that I would rather spend
that 7.25 pounds on a spare battery if my mission needed it.
The injectors draw 1.5 - 2.0 amps each depending on load. The vendor recommends
5 amp fuses.
The 50 amp b-lead breaker is simply copied from what Cubcrafters does on their
certified Carbon Cubs. What is the right answer? An ANL fuse somewhere?
Mark
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493840#493840
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/n36cx_edraw_circuit_diagram__v1_159.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Desulfators and Lithium |
At 03:44 PM 12/14/2019, you wrote:
>
>I just had pointed out to me a study that lends something to the discussion:
>https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318890311_Impact_of_Pulse_Voltage_as_Desulfator_to_Improve_Automotive_Lead_Acid_Battery_Capacity
>
>I can't say that it appears definitive, nor particularly
>quantitative, but at least attempted to study the subject.
Unfortunately, it's VERY un-quantitative . . . and
short on illumination.
"Pulse" charging techniques have been proposed
and sorta demonstrated for decades. I can recall
conversations I had with local fellow ham-operators
back in the 60's.
This particular article takes a little different approach.
Instead of 'hammering' the pesky lead-sulfate crystals
with a 'high' energy pulse, this article appears to
claim that a simple 50% duty cycle charging protocol
that 'respects the manufacturer's specifications'.
The repetition rate can be 'user programmed' at
any frequency from 2 to 6 Mhz to ostensibly
coordinated with a 'resonance frequency' . . .
thereafter undefined. No mention of the
experiment's test frequency or how an
optimized test frequency can be determined.
The paper uses the word 'capacity' 29 times
yet never describes how capacity improvements
are quantified. The paper speaks to open circuit
voltage measurements which are loosely correlated
to state of charge but say nothing about improvements
in deliverable Joules or Watt-Seconds by a rejuvenated
battery.
The by-lines for these authors don't indicate
their pedigree . . . so are they students? If
students, then their teachers should be duct-taped
to a chalk-board and flogged with their own
slide-rule.
My kiddo's 7th grade science fair project
and presentation demonstrated more science than
this paper. Nothing to see here . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ATO vs ATC fuses |
I like the look and smaller size of the mini fuses and assumed that there
would be a plentiful supply of fuse blocks for them but came up empty
online. I've seen a couple aircraft with fuse blocks for mini fuses though
so they are out there. While looking around I found plenty of marine fuse
blocks with ground busses included which seems like a great idea.
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/12V-12-WAY-Fuse-Block-Box-Holder-ATC-ATO-Blade-Garavan-Marine-Dual-Battery-CA/254336429525?hash=item3b37a1edd5:g:A2YAAOSwk8xdEc6G
Unfortunately they are all for fork connectors and I really like the idea
of tabs for ease of maintenance under the panel.
Maybe it's time B & C updated their offerings in this area? A fuse block
with LEDs to indicate blown fuses with a forest of tabs built in?
On Sat, Dec 14, 2019, 11:58 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 08:07 PM 12/13/2019, you wrote:
>
> Interesting question. At the same time I'd like to ask if there is any
> downside to using mini fuses.
>
>
> Not aware of any pre-fabricated panels
> for the mini fuses. You're looking for ease
> of installation and robustness. The fuseblocks
> eliminate breaker panels and bus bars while
> allowing the distribution to be mounted out
> of sight/mind.
>
> Any 'savings' for down-sizing to mini fuses
> would be small.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ATO vs ATC fuses |
>While looking around I found plenty of marine fuse blocks with
>ground busses included which seems like a great idea.
Not recommended . . .
Your system grounds need to be patterned after
Z-15 examples . . . not scattered around on a variety
of fuse blocks.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Questions as I Design My Circuit Diagram |
| From: | "markfw" <markwheelermd(at)icloud.com> |
Bob,
You were right. My spreadsheet numbers (and my memory of the correct numbers) were
wrong.
The range of energy consumption per injection according to their vendor is .5 -
1.5 amps depending on load.
My load (5 gph) is at the bottom of his range.
It doesnt change my design, but I have to eat humble pie.
Mark
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493845#493845
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Next generation wig-wag controller for LED lamps |
| From: | "fvfdums" <kakaxiu9(at)gmail.com> |
oh,it is a good idea.Good ideas are just for everyone to share.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
My stepper motor website:skysmotor.com (https://www.skysmotor.com/) - Machinery Design ? - ? Stepper Moter Development
"Necessity is the mother of invention." - Author unknown.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493846#493846
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM |
| From: | "Argonaut36" <fmlibrino(at)msn.com> |
Bob,
Many thanks for your comments and suggestions.
My airplane has a standard certificate and I cannot fly with a model of voltage
regulator different from the one that I have in the airplane now. I could do
tests on the ground with another voltage regulator, but I dont see the benefit,
because my alternator works normally on the ground, except after landing when
the engine is hot (well above the temperatures that I see in flight).
At this point I would rule out the alternator, because I had similar problems with
my previous alternator. Two bad alternators is possible, but not very likely.
This leaves the voltage regulator and the wiring. I checked the wires in
the engine compartment (easily accessible) and replaced a section that was not
in good conditions. I also installed an additional ground line for the alternator
following the instructions of the alternator manufacturer. I did not
check the wiring in the cabin, but that wiring seems to be working fine when the
engine is at normal temperature and it should not see higher temperature when
the engine is hot.
Any additional thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493851#493851
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ATO vs ATC fuses |
Actually Bob Z-15 was what I was thinking of. Each of those fuse blocks has
12 fused power and 12 ground terminals. One block would be the endurance
bus / avionics ground bus and the other block would be the main bus / panel
ground bus. Although doing it that way I would connect the two ground
busses with a braided cable instead of the 5x20awg on the diagram. Why does
Z-15 have 5x20awg instead of a bonding strap?
In any case, if I do rewire the plane I think I'll stick to the fuse blocks
with tabs instead of screws and a single forest of tabs for the grounds
(none of my avionics would need a separate ground bus and I don't have any
firewall forward small grounds so only one ground bus).
On Sun, Dec 15, 2019 at 6:49 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> While looking around I found plenty of marine fuse blocks with ground
> busses included which seems like a great idea.
>
>
> Not recommended . . .
> Your system grounds need to be patterned after
> Z-15 examples . . . not scattered around on a variety
> of fuse blocks.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ATO vs ATC fuses |
At 12:32 AM 12/16/2019, you wrote:
>Actually Bob Z-15 was what I was thinking of.
>Each of those fuse blocks has 12 fused power and
>12 ground terminals. One block would be the
>endurance bus / avionics ground bus and the
>other block would be the main bus / panel ground
>bus. Although doing it that way I would connect
>the two ground busses with a braided cable
>instead of the 5x20awg on the diagram. Why does
>Z-15 have 5x20awg instead of a bonding strap?
The avionics ground is up on the panel adjacent to
the radios and other electro-whizzies.
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Grounding/AGB_V.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Grounding/AVG_RA.jpg
since is built up of crimp-on, 20AWG pins, the 5-wire
bundle seems a whole lot cleaner than trying to grab
onto it with anything else. But one could solder a
braided strap to the back-side . . . either works
good and lasts a long time.
>In any case, if I do rewire the plane I think
>I'll stick to the fuse=C2 blocks with tabs instead of screws
Recommend THREADED TERMINATIONS be avoided
as much as possible. Robustness of small
threaded fasteners are a pain-n-the-uknow-what
to assemble and process sensitive for
longevity and they drive up parts count.
The fast-on is simple, elegant and has an
excellent service record.
> . . . (none of my avionics would need a separate ground bus . . .
The idea behind the avionics ground is to provide
a LOCAL ground for all panel mounted electro-whizzies
service by a single, robust jumper to airframe system
grounds on firewall.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM |
> Two bad alternators is possible, but not very likely. This leaves
> the voltage regulator and the wiring.
agreed . . . and 95% probability its the regulator
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Next generation wig-wag controller for LED |
lamps
At 09:48 PM 12/15/2019, you wrote:
>
>oh,it is a good idea.Good ideas are just for everyone to share.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>My stepper motor website:skysmotor.com (https://www.skysmotor.com/)
>- Machinery Design ? - ? Stepper Moter Development
>
>"Necessity is the mother of invention." - Author unknown.
INTERLOPER . . . IGNORE
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)GMAIL.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch ratings? |
On Sat, Dec 14, 2019 at 19:39 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 11:19 PM 12/13/2019, you wrote:
>
> Are switch=C3=82 ratings related to power?=C3=82 I'm wondering if I can
assume that
> a 12A/28VDC rating would be equivalent to a 24A/12VDC rating.=C3=82 The
=C3=82
> switch=C3=82 I'm interested in is rated at 125VAC and 28VDC but not 14V.
=C3=82 Is
> 24A a safe assumption at 14V?=C3=82 Or is there more to it?=C3=82 This
is the
> switch:=C3=82 =C3=82 https://www.mcmaster.com/7337k98
>
> --Dave
>
>
> >>but why this one? It's rather expensive.
>
I want the locking feature, and to match some existing hardware.
If I bus two poles together can I assume each works half as hard? Or
pretty close?
I=99m running something like an endurance bus. My worst case load is
near
20A. I realize that the switch most likely wouldn=99t be swung in th
at
condition so arcing isn't much concern. And that load would require comm
and transponder xmitting, and the AP and trim at full steam in three axes.
I=99m not in production. A few $$ is a drop in the bucket.
Which bring up another question: although the AP motor loads are relatively
small, do the steppers create a traditional inductive load? Or can I just
lump them in with the more significant resistive loads?
=94Dave
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alternator stops working at low idle RPM |
| From: | "Argonaut36" <fmlibrino(at)msn.com> |
Bob,
Thanks to you and all members that have provided help. I will post updates on the
developments
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493861#493861
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch ratings? |
>
>
>I want the locking feature, and to match some existing hardware.
>
>If I bus two poles together can I assume each
>works half as hard?=C2 Or pretty close?
No . . .but not worth worrying about . . .
>I=99m running something like an endurance
>bus.=C2 My worst case load is near 20A.=C2 I
>realize that the switch most likely wouldn=99t
>be swung in that condition so arcing isn't much
>concern.=C2 And that load would require comm and
>transponder xmitting, and the AP and trim at
>full steam in three axes. I=99m not in
>production.=C2 A few $$ is a drop in the bucket.=C2
Go ahead and wire it in . . .paralleled poles if you wish . . .
won't make any difference but won't hurt anything either.
>Which bring up another question: although the AP
>motor loads are relatively small, do the
>steppers create a traditional inductive
>load?=C2 Or can I just lump them in with the more significant =C2
resistive loads?
In this application, your machinations over ratings
are not useful. Drive ahead with confidence.
The ratings are predicated on thousands of operations
at some current load combined with reactive features.
The CARRY current of any switch is a lot higher than
rated SWITCHING currents. Consider the 70A rated
devices used as battery master contactors for nearly
100 years.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch ratings? |
>>I=99m running something like an endurance
>>bus.=C2 My worst case load is near 20A.=C2
Is this a DUAL feed bus?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Gurley" <rngurley1(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Icarus GPSS unit |
I have an Icarus GPSS unit that needs some repair. The company appears to
be long out of business. Does anyone know anyone who can repair our unit?
Thank you
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Icarus GPSS Unit Repair |
| From: | Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com> |
I'd drop Jeff Kauffman a line, in Massachusetts. He worked there, and if
he's not interested in repairing it, he may know who is.
Paul
On 12/17/2019 1:52 PM, Richard Gurley wrote:
>
> I have an Icarus GPSS unit that needs some repair. The company
> appears to be long out of business. Does anyone know anyone who can
> repair our unit?
>
> Thank you
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: HomeBrew Engine Monitor |
| From: | "andymeyer" <meyerkc135(at)gmail.com> |
Bob, et al.,
I ended up drawing it out on Upverter and think the schematic is complete.
https://upverter.com/eda/#designId=a91dd3c235add7df,tool=schematic
I believe that link will take you right to the schematic.
Now to learn to layout boards in Upverter...
I did find a couple of errors going through this process - thank you!
Andy
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493873#493873
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch ratings? |
>>I=99m running something like an endurance
>>bus.=C2 My worst case load is near 20A.=C2
Dave,
Is this a DUAL feed bus?
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Burbidge <mburbidg(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | One battery/two alternators IFR z-diagram |
SeKAmW0gYnVpbGRpbmcgYW4gUlYtMTRBLiBUaGUgcGFuZWwgd2lsbCBiZSBJRlIgY2FwYWJsZSwg
R2FybWluIEczWCBzeXN0ZW0uIFRoZSBpZ25pdGlvbiBzeXN0ZW0gd2lsbCBiZSBkdWFsIFBNQUdz
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cywNCk1pY2hhZWwtDQo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Burbidge <mburbidg(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One battery/two alternators IFR z-diagram |
QWZ0ZXIgZG9pbmcgc29tZSByZWFkaW5nIG9uIHRoZSBGQVEgbGlzdCwgaXQgbG9va3MgbGlrZSBJ
IHNob3VsZCBjb25zaWRlciB0aGUgWi0xMy84IHdpdGggdGhlIFotMjUgZXhjaXRhdGlvbiBtb2Qs
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byBmaXQgdGhlIGJpbGwuDQoNClRoYW5rcywNCk1pY2hhZWwtDQo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch ratings? |
Bob,
It's based on Z-30, with a fuse and a switch in the aux battery bus feed.
So no, it's not dual feed.
On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 1:04 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2m running something like an endurance bus.=C3=82
My worst case load is
> near 20A.=C3=82
>
>
> Dave,
>
> Is this a DUAL feed bus?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Switch ratings? |
A single feed endurance bus with a switch
in the feeder . . . what 'lectro-whizzies
run from this bus?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: One battery/two alternators IFR z-diagram |
| From: | Rick Beebe <rick(at)beebe.org> |
I'm not sure that's true. I have the same basic setup. Single battery,
two alternators and I used Z-12. The PMAGs are self-contained so you
don't have an electrically dependent ignition system. I'm using an
SB18-14 regulator for the second alternator so both can just stay on. I
have a Garmin G-5 as my backup instrument and I installed the battery on
it so in the unlikely event of a complete electrical failure I'll have
45 minutes or so to get the plane on the ground.
--Rick
On 12/18/2019 9:26 PM, Michael Burbidge wrote:
>
> After doing some reading on the FAQ list, it looks like I should
> consider the Z-13/8 with the Z-25 excitation mod, or else the Z-14. I
> think I also now understand one of the drawbacks of Z-12 architecture
> is if the battery contactor fails, both alternators go offline.
>
> Michael-
>
> *From: *"owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com"
> on behalf of Michael
> Burbidge
> *Reply-To: *"aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com"
>
> *Date: *Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 3:56 PM
> *To: *"aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com"
> *Subject: *AeroElectric-List: One battery/two alternators IFR z-diagram
>
> Im building an RV-14A. The panel will be IFR capable, Garmin G3X
> system. The ignition system will be dual PMAGs.
>
> Id like to go with a single battery, two alternator system. B&C 60
> Amp and B&C 20 Amp alternators.
>
> Id prefer the electrical system be as simple as is practical. Z-13/20
> looks to be about what I want, but Ive heard this is no longer a
> recommended architecture. (I saw one post that said it had been
> excommunicated. )
>
> What is there a recommended replacement architecture for the z-13/20?
>
> Z-12 also appears to fit the bill.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Michael-
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Burbidge <mburbidg(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One battery/two alternators IFR z-diagram |
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YWVsLQ0K
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Troubleshoot Generator |
| From: | "James Meade" <jnmeade(at)southslope.net> |
How do you troubleshoot a generator? Piper PA-22-150 Tri-Pacer 1955.
First incident. Noticed ammeter discharging in air. Landed.
Second incident. After a number of flights all OK, noticed ammeter showed
charge at run-up RPM, flew, noticed discharge about 30 minutes later.
Don't know when the generator went offline. Unloading various components
all indicated the ammeter correctly reflected their draw. Landed.
Third incident. Immediately after 2d, started engine and ammeter
immediately showed discharge.
Wires appear to be tightly connected but too hot for hands in engine
compartment for definitive check. Belt was good and had proper tension.
Initial calls to "old" mechanics and searching online shows very few
people are experienced in generator systems anymore.
My next step is to uncowl the plane and with the engine cool get my hands
in and check all wires for proper connection and condition.
I assume the ammeter is OK based on it's presentation.
If I can, I'm going to pull one or more brushes and inspect them.
I'd like to isolate the problem to either the voltage regulator or the
generator. How do I do that?
I intend to get the data plate information on the generator and determine
the make, model and type, but I don't have that information right now.
I'll post more info when I can but with holiday plans may be limited for a
while.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | A R Goldman <argoldman(at)aol.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Troubleshoot Generator |
Reminds me of an incident many years in a senica 1 I had. Left engine (could have
been a generator) similar symptoms after many a& ps. Finally was sent to
an electrical specialist. It turned out that there was a corroded switch due to
water inclusion ( switches were below the little storm window or whatever it
is called. I think it was the master switch but cant be certain. That was about
40 yrs ago
Good luck on your hunt!
Rich
Sent from my iPhone
> On Dec 20, 2019, at 6:43 AM, James Meade wrote:
>
>
> How do you troubleshoot a generator? Piper PA-22-150 Tri-Pacer 1955.
> First incident. Noticed ammeter discharging in air. Landed.
> Second incident. After a number of flights all OK, noticed ammeter showed charge
at run-up RPM, flew, noticed discharge about 30 minutes later. Don't know
when the generator went offline. Unloading various components all indicated
the ammeter correctly reflected their draw. Landed.
> Third incident. Immediately after 2d, started engine and ammeter immediately
showed discharge.
> Wires appear to be tightly connected but too hot for hands in engine compartment
for definitive check. Belt was good and had proper tension.
> Initial calls to "old" mechanics and searching online shows very few people are
experienced in generator systems anymore.
> My next step is to uncowl the plane and with the engine cool get my hands in
and check all wires for proper connection and condition.
> I assume the ammeter is OK based on it's presentation.
> If I can, I'm going to pull one or more brushes and inspect them.
> I'd like to isolate the problem to either the voltage regulator or the generator.
How do I do that?
> I intend to get the data plate information on the generator and determine the
make, model and type, but I don't have that information right now.
> I'll post more info when I can but with holiday plans may be limited for a while.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Troubleshoot Generator |
Pull the generator.=C2- Mount it in a drill press.=C2- Adjust the dril
l press to run it at various speeds.=C2- Use a heat gun to simulate engin
e compartment conditions.
hslope.net> wrote:
.net>
How do you troubleshoot a generator?=C2- Piper PA-22-150 Tri-Pacer 1955.
First incident.=C2- Noticed ammeter discharging in air.=C2- Landed.
Second incident.=C2- After a number of flights all OK, noticed ammeter sh
owed=C2-
charge at run-up RPM, flew, noticed discharge about 30 minutes later.=C2-
Don't know when the generator went offline.=C2- Unloading various compone
nts=C2-
all indicated the ammeter correctly reflected their draw.=C2- Landed.
Third incident.=C2- Immediately after 2d, started engine and ammeter=C2
-
immediately showed discharge.
Wires appear to be tightly connected but too hot for hands in engine=C2-
compartment for definitive check.=C2- Belt was good and had proper tensio
n.
Initial calls to "old" mechanics and searching online shows very few=C2-
people are experienced in generator systems anymore.
My next step is to uncowl the plane and with the engine cool get my hands
=C2-
in and check all wires for proper connection and condition.
I assume the ammeter is OK based on it's presentation.
If I can, I'm going to pull one or more brushes and inspect them.
I'd like to isolate the problem to either the voltage regulator or the=C2
-
generator.=C2- How do I do that?
I intend to get the data plate information on the generator and determine
=C2-
the make, model and type, but I don't have that information right now.
I'll post more info when I can but with holiday plans may be limited for a
=C2-
while.
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
-
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Troubleshoot Generator |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 12/20/2019 6:43 AM, James Meade wrote:
>
>
> How do you troubleshoot a generator? Piper PA-22-150 Tri-Pacer 1955.
> First incident. Noticed ammeter discharging in air. Landed.
> Second incident. After a number of flights all OK, noticed ammeter
> showed charge at run-up RPM, flew, noticed discharge about 30 minutes
> later. Don't know when the generator went offline. Unloading various
> components all indicated the ammeter correctly reflected their draw.
> Landed.
> Third incident. Immediately after 2d, started engine and ammeter
> immediately showed discharge.
> Wires appear to be tightly connected but too hot for hands in engine
> compartment for definitive check. Belt was good and had proper tension.
> Initial calls to "old" mechanics and searching online shows very few
> people are experienced in generator systems anymore.
> My next step is to uncowl the plane and with the engine cool get my
> hands in and check all wires for proper connection and condition.
> I assume the ammeter is OK based on it's presentation.
> If I can, I'm going to pull one or more brushes and inspect them.
> I'd like to isolate the problem to either the voltage regulator or the
> generator. How do I do that?
> I intend to get the data plate information on the generator and
> determine the make, model and type, but I don't have that information
> right now.
> I'll post more info when I can but with holiday plans may be limited
> for a while.
Assuming wiring integrity, You're down to the switch, generator
brushes/internal connections, and the regulators internal connections.
If you still have the the original style regulator on a plane of that
age, it would have what amounts to a handful of mechanical relays in it.
If the contacts are starting to burn/corrode, it'll cause random
failures. You might find that you can remove the cover to inspect the
contacts.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One battery/two alternators IFR z-diagram |
At 08:26 PM 12/18/2019, you wrote:
>After doing some reading on the FAQ list, it looks like I should
>consider the Z-13/8 with the Z-25 excitation mod, or else the Z-14.
>I think I also now understand one of the drawbacks of Z-12
>architecture is if the battery contactor fails, both alternators go offline.
>
>Michael-
That's generally not true with modern alternators . . .
and only a few of the legacy alternators.
It's true that many alternators will not come
online without a battery present . . .but once
running, they'll hum along oblivious to battery
being there or not.
With HEAVY inrush loads like klieg-lights in the
wings or hydraulic pump motors. It was theoretically
possible to stall an alternator . . .from which
recovery would be impossible unless a battery were
present.
Such loads are rare in our neighborhood of the
GA community. Contactor failure in flight
is exceedingly rare . . . never heard of one . . .
but ANY change to engine cranking performance
on the GROUND calls for investigation . . . you
might have a contactor getting tired.
But if the engine starts right smartly then
you've 'preflighted' the contactor . . . probability
of loosing it in the next 3 hours of operation
is nil.
Z-12 is flying in hundreds if not thousands of
TC aircraft and they don't even have an e-bus.
If you've got a ROBUST standby alternator like
the contemporary SD20 machines, then the need
for load-shedding with loss of main alternator
is minimal if non-existent . . . hence, the need
for a refined load-shedding protocol is negated.
Of course, this should all be CONFIRMED by
completing the very first design document needed
for artful crafting of your system . . . the LOAD
ANALYSIS.
If it were my airplane, I'd go for Z12 with no
ebus and a well maintained battery. The auto-switch
feature for Z-12 is not necessary for flight
safety. I'd run an LR3 on the main alternator
and a generic VR166 on the standby alternator.
Leave standby alternator OFF until needed as
annunciated by a low volts warning.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One battery/two alternators IFR z-diagram |
>
>What is there a recommended replacement architecture for the z-13/20?
Z13/8 was crafted with the notion of offering
a robust (meaning unlimited electrical endurance
in the alt-out mode) plan-b for loss of main alternator
assuming running loads can be reduced to 10A
or less . . . which is the capability of
the SD8.
I fiddled with the idea of a Z13/20 waayyy
back when . . . at time when the operating
philosophy for the SD20 called for b-lead
current sensing and cockpit indications
for reducing load to values at or below
the 'rated' output of the alternator.
This made the FAA happy . . . but in retrospect
was totally unnecessary. The SD20 has
a pedigree based on a 40A, automotive,
belt driven alternator (B&C's L40).
In a Lycoming installation, it runs
at 10KRPM or better, may indeed be expected
to produce 40A under some conditions
and is belt-driven which produces significant
axial loading on the bearings.
As an SD20, it's DERATED not for any physical
design limits . . . but because on the
vacuum pump pad it isn't driven at much
more than 3900 rpm. So in fact, you cannot
physically 'overload' this alternator to the
extend that functionality is at risk.
Its output sags and it's physically incapable
of producing the same output as the mother-machine
just 'cause it's not turning fast enough.
In years since, materials and processes for
the raw-stock have improved such that the
SD20 is now rated at more than 20A on a
pad drive.
The Z13/8 philosophy for minimizing running
loads while under standby power is not
especially valid for EITHER a Z12 or Z13/20
application.
So as mentioned in my post of a few mintues
ago, I think I'm going to revise Z-12 to (1)
remove the Endurance Bus and (2) replace the
standby regulator with something simple and
cheap. The best indicator of loading the standby
alternator too hard is depression of bus
voltage below 13.0 volts. Given the number
of voltmeters in most airplanes today, the
value of a over-current, under-voltage sensing
regulator on the standby system seems something
of overkill.
Modern electronics and lighting have made it
possible to craft even an IFR capable machine
with running loads below the output capability
of a pad-driven SD20.
Have I overlooked anything here? Considered
critical review is most welcome . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One battery/two alternators IFR z-diagram |
Speaking strictly for my applications Bob (VFR and IFR AB, some of which
have electrically dependent engines), I totally agree. My ideal system is
not bulletproof or dispatcheable after one or more failures. My ideal
system is as simple and cheap as possible, while allowing for comfortable
termination of flight after a failure.
As soon as the bus voltage sags below 13.8v, red lights start flashing in
multiple places. Once this happens there is a checklist to follow in each
airplane, and manually changing the alternator switch from main to aux is
no big deal. 20A is sufficient for comfortable termination of flight, or
even load shedding and continuation of flight in many circumstances.
I like the idea of an endurance bus, but have never implemented it because
the added complexity was not justified by the benefits.
On Fri, Dec 20, 2019, 15:09 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
> What is there a recommended replacement architecture for the z-13/20?
>
>
> Z13/8 was crafted with the notion of offering
> a robust (meaning unlimited electrical endurance
> in the alt-out mode) plan-b for loss of main alternator
> assuming running loads can be reduced to 10A
> or less . . . which is the capability of
> the SD8.
>
> I fiddled with the idea of a Z13/20 waayyy
> back when . . . at time when the operating
> philosophy for the SD20 called for b-lead
> current sensing and cockpit indications
> for reducing load to values at or below
> the 'rated' output of the alternator.
>
> This made the FAA happy . . . but in retrospect
> was totally unnecessary. The SD20 has
> a pedigree based on a 40A, automotive,
> belt driven alternator (B&C's L40).
> In a Lycoming installation, it runs
> at 10KRPM or better, may indeed be expected
> to produce 40A under some conditions
> and is belt-driven which produces significant
> axial loading on the bearings.
>
> As an SD20, it's DERATED not for any physical
> design limits . . . but because on the
> vacuum pump pad it isn't driven at much
> more than 3900 rpm. So in fact, you cannot
> physically 'overload' this alternator to the
> extend that functionality is at risk.
> Its output sags and it's physically incapable
> of producing the same output as the mother-machine
> just 'cause it's not turning fast enough.
>
> In years since, materials and processes for
> the raw-stock have improved such that the
> SD20 is now rated at more than 20A on a
> pad drive.
>
> The Z13/8 philosophy for minimizing running
> loads while under standby power is not
> especially valid for EITHER a Z12 or Z13/20
> application.
>
> So as mentioned in my post of a few mintues
> ago, I think I'm going to revise Z-12 to (1)
> remove the Endurance Bus and (2) replace the
> standby regulator with something simple and
> cheap. The best indicator of loading the standby
> alternator too hard is depression of bus
> voltage below 13.0 volts. Given the number
> of voltmeters in most airplanes today, the
> value of a over-current, under-voltage sensing
> regulator on the standby system seems something
> of overkill.
>
> Modern electronics and lighting have made it
> possible to craft even an IFR capable machine
> with running loads below the output capability
> of a pad-driven SD20.
>
> Have I overlooked anything here? Considered
> critical review is most welcome . . .
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: One battery/two alternators IFR z-diagram |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
> So as mentioned in my post of a few mintues
> ago, I think I'm going to revise Z-12 to (1)
> remove the Endurance Bus and (2) replace the
> standby regulator with something simple and
> cheap. The best indicator of loading the standby
> alternator too hard is depression of bus
> voltage below 13.0 volts. Given the number
> of voltmeters in most airplanes today, the
> value of a over-current, under-voltage sensing
> regulator on the standby system seems something
> of overkill.
> Modern electronics and lighting have made it
> possible to craft even an IFR capable machine
> with running loads below the output capability
> of a pad-driven SD20.
> Have I overlooked anything here? Considered
> critical review is most welcome . . .
> Bob . . .
Great idea Bob. Simpler is better.
Many VFR sport planes do not even need a standby alternator.
Now if we could just convince builders to NOT install an avionics switch.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493911#493911
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Troubleshoot Generator |
At 06:43 AM 12/20/2019, you wrote:
>
>
>How do you troubleshoot a generator? Piper PA-22-150 Tri-Pacer 1955.
Took dual instruction from the one-and-only Rip Gooch
off Rawdon field in 1962 in one of those. Still one
of my favorite airplanes.
>First incident. Noticed ammeter discharging in air. Landed.
>Second incident. After a number of flights all OK, noticed ammeter showed
>charge at run-up RPM, flew, noticed discharge about 30 minutes later.
>Don't know when the generator went offline. Unloading various components
>all indicated the ammeter correctly reflected their draw. Landed.
>Third incident. Immediately after 2d, started engine and ammeter
>immediately showed discharge.
The most probable cause is brushes worn down beyond
limits. These should be part of the annual inspection
for wear limits. If the regulator is an 'original'
electro-mechnanical, then it's suspect . . . and if
very old . . . probably needs replacing 'just because.
It's no surprise that few mechanics can deal with
these old machines 'legally' . . . they don't
have practice, knowledge or documentation. B&C
probably has an STC for an L40 alternator installation.
Yeah, it would be 'nice' to keep it 'stock' . . . but
November 01, 2019 - December 21, 2019
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-pe