AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-pf

December 21, 2019 - January 22, 2020



        it's the best upgrade you could do for this venerable
      
      
         Bob . . .  
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Burbidge <mburbidg(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: One battery/two alternators IFR z-diagram
Date: Dec 21, 2019
Thanks for the detailed response Bob. You=92ve probably responded to this q uestion before. I looked for the archive of this mail list. But couldn=92t find it. Is there an archive. I could swear I=92ve used it before. Michael From: "owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com" <owner-aeroelectric-li st-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" m> Date: Friday, December 20, 2019 at 3:09 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: One battery/two alternators IFR z-diagram What is there a recommended replacement architecture for the z-13/20? Z13/8 was crafted with the notion of offering a robust (meaning unlimited electrical endurance in the alt-out mode) plan-b for loss of main alternator assuming running loads can be reduced to 10A or less . . . which is the capability of the SD8. I fiddled with the idea of a Z13/20 waayyy back when . . . at time when the operating philosophy for the SD20 called for b-lead current sensing and cockpit indications for reducing load to values at or below the 'rated' output of the alternator. This made the FAA happy . . . but in retrospect was totally unnecessary. The SD20 has a pedigree based on a 40A, automotive, belt driven alternator (B&C's L40). In a Lycoming installation, it runs at 10KRPM or better, may indeed be expected to produce 40A under some conditions and is belt-driven which produces significant axial loading on the bearings. As an SD20, it's DERATED not for any physical design limits . . . but because on the vacuum pump pad it isn't driven at much more than 3900 rpm. So in fact, you cannot physically 'overload' this alternator to the extend that functionality is at risk. Its output sags and it's physically incapable of producing the same output as the mother-machine just 'cause it's not turning fast enough. In years since, materials and processes for the raw-stock have improved such that the SD20 is now rated at more than 20A on a pad drive. The Z13/8 philosophy for minimizing running loads while under standby power is not especially valid for EITHER a Z12 or Z13/20 application. So as mentioned in my post of a few mintues ago, I think I'm going to revise Z-12 to (1) remove the Endurance Bus and (2) replace the standby regulator with something simple and cheap. The best indicator of loading the standby alternator too hard is depression of bus voltage below 13.0 volts. Given the number of voltmeters in most airplanes today, the value of a over-current, under-voltage sensing regulator on the standby system seems something of overkill. Modern electronics and lighting have made it possible to craft even an IFR capable machine with running loads below the output capability of a pad-driven SD20. Have I overlooked anything here? Considered critical review is most welcome . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John B <jbsoar(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 20, 2019
Subject: Re: Troubleshoot Generator
One can inspect/replace the brushes, but, really, after many decades of service, the generator likely wore out due to corrosion of the internal parts. Bearings slowly fail, the brushes then wear at a more rapid rate. If the generator was serviced/replaced, this was likely done in the 70s or 80s... True: There are very few mechanics or shops that can service this generator. An alternator, legally installed via an STC, and a new battery, will likely solve all the problems. The alternator will likely be lighter than the generator, and the aircraft's Weight & Balance will need to be updated. This is an easy task... Install a new belt as well. That might well come in the kit... On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 9:07 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 06:43 AM 12/20/2019, you wrote: > > jnmeade(at)southslope.net> > > How do you troubleshoot a generator? Piper PA-22-150 Tri-Pacer 1955. > > > Took dual instruction from the one-and-only Rip Gooch > off Rawdon field in 1962 in one of those. Still one > of my favorite airplanes. > > First incident. Noticed ammeter discharging in air. Landed. > Second incident. After a number of flights all OK, noticed ammeter > showed > charge at run-up RPM, flew, noticed discharge about 30 minutes later. > Don't know when the generator went offline. Unloading various components > all indicated the ammeter correctly reflected their draw. Landed. > Third incident. Immediately after 2d, started engine and ammeter > immediately showed discharge. > > > The most probable cause is brushes worn down beyond > limits. These should be part of the annual inspection > for wear limits. If the regulator is an 'original' > electro-mechnanical, then it's suspect . . . and if > very old . . . probably needs replacing 'just because. > > It's no surprise that few mechanics can deal with > these old machines 'legally' . . . they don't > have practice, knowledge or documentation. B&C > probably has an STC for an L40 alternator installation. > Yeah, it would be 'nice' to keep it 'stock' . . . but > it's the best upgrade you could do for this venerable > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 20, 2019
Subject: Re: Switch ratings?
"Aircraft Power 2" inputs for nine devices (almost everything), plus AP servos and trim. Endurance and anti-sag. As I understand it, Aircraft Power 1 and Aircraft Power 2 are "dioded" (Garmin's word) apart. The highest voltage feeds the device. On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 9:16 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > A single feed endurance bus with a switch > in the feeder . . . what 'lectro-whizzies > run from this bus? > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 2019
Subject: More Tri-Pacer Generator Info
From: "James Meade" <jnmeade(at)southslope.net>
The generator is an Aerotechlou rebuilt and installed in 2014. It is almost certainly a Delco Remy 35 amp and I'm assuming it is a type "A" circuit as described in their literature. We're trying to run down the paperwork. There is a vision port which can be viewed and from that the brushes look well seated and the commutator is clean and serviceable. The VR is a Zentronic G1350 which looks to be of modern design (no mechanical points). Troubleshooting on the Aerotechlou site says remove the field wire and jumper the field terminal to aircraft ground. Remove the armature wire and measure the voltage to ground with a DC voltmeter and the engine running. The voltage should follow engine RPM. I'm going to do this by taking the wires off of the voltage regulator, which is on the firewall, instead of the governor. The governor is virtually inaccessible. To get at it one must pull the prop and the front cowl. Not inclined to do that until it's the only choice. I understand this does not isolate the wires, but if the wires are the problem the prop and cowl have to come off anyway or get someone with smaller fingers. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 2019
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Architecture Question (was Switch ratings?)
At 10:29 PM 12/20/2019, you wrote: >"Aircraft Power 2" inputs for nine devices >(almost everything), plus AP servos and trim. Endurance and anti-sag. > >As I understand it, Aircraft Power 1 and >Aircraft Power 2 are "dioded" (Garmin's word) >apart.=C2 The highest voltage feeds the device. Okay, you've lost me. Need to see an architecture drawing. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 2019
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: More Tri-Pacer Generator Info
At 06:56 AM 12/21/2019, you wrote: > > >The generator is an Aerotechlou rebuilt and installed in 2014. It is >almost certainly a Delco Remy 35 amp and I'm assuming it is a type "A" >circuit as described in their literature. We're trying to run down the >paperwork. There is a vision port which can be viewed and from that the >brushes look well seated and the commutator is clean and serviceable. The >VR is a Zentronic G1350 which looks to be of modern design (no mechanical >points). EXCELLENT! An updated system . . . nice that your vintage bird can stay as close to original as possible/practical. > Troubleshooting on the Aerotechlou site says remove the field >wire and jumper the field terminal to aircraft ground. Remove the >armature wire and measure the voltage to ground with a DC voltmeter and >the engine running. The voltage should follow engine RPM. An excellent data point . . . but this only says the brushes are 'mostly' in good contact. Since system charging currents flow in the brushes, a voltmeter falls way short of duplicating a 'proof load'. When you do this test, add at least one, if not 2, 55 Watt head lamps to the load. Adding this load makes flaky brushes more likely to demonstrate their problems. And this test isn't a sure bet . . . you've described situations where the system DID produce adequate power for significant periods of time . . . >I'm going to do this by taking the wires off of the voltage regulator, >which is on the firewall, instead of the governor. The governor is >virtually inaccessible. Good idea. > To get at it one must pull the prop and the front >cowl. Not inclined to do that until it's the only choice. I understand >this does not isolate the wires, but if the wires are the problem the prop >and cowl have to come off anyway or get someone with smaller fingers. Sounds like your on a promising track to discovering root cause. Run the traps on the manufacturer's recommended troubleshooting procedures. If no joy, get back here and we can offer further advise on how to track down the problem. Do you put a lot of hours on this a/c? That generator, under moderate loads should have a brush life on the order of 200-300 hours . . . maybe better. But your inspection window should confirm/deny brush wear as the problem. The symptoms you describe DO suggest that it's a brush problem. If the VR is solid state, then probability of failure is low . . . probability of intermittent failure lower still . . . but not zero in any case. Keep us appraised of your progress . . . we don't often get to witness the detective work on vintage problems! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "skywagon185guy ." <skywagon185(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 21, 2019
Subject: Re: Troubleshoot Generator
Generator.... It sure sounds like it is heat related... * if the brushes are quite worn/short, they may stay in contact with the commutator but, when the unit gets hot, the brush "holder/spring" might hangup and the short brushes don't make contact. * One of the major internal wires may have a break; a very fine one. Cold the break does not fault the circuit, but, hot the break opens. Had experience with that one on a Chrysler based engine alternator. A very seasoned mechanic had seen the fault before. Where one end of a heavy stator wire was swaged into the alternator case, it developed a very "fine" crack. Would operate fine when cold, and stop, crack opened, when hot. On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 9:34 AM Charlie England wrote: > On 12/20/2019 6:43 AM, James Meade wrote: > > > > How do you troubleshoot a generator? Piper PA-22-150 Tri-Pacer 1955. > First incident. Noticed ammeter discharging in air. Landed. > Second incident. After a number of flights all OK, noticed ammeter showed > charge at run-up RPM, flew, noticed discharge about 30 minutes later. > Don't know when the generator went offline. Unloading various components > all indicated the ammeter correctly reflected their draw. Landed. > Third incident. Immediately after 2d, started engine and ammeter > immediately showed discharge. > Wires appear to be tightly connected but too hot for hands in engine > compartment for definitive check. Belt was good and had proper tension. > Initial calls to "old" mechanics and searching online shows very few > people are experienced in generator systems anymore. > My next step is to uncowl the plane and with the engine cool get my hands > in and check all wires for proper connection and condition. > I assume the ammeter is OK based on it's presentation. > If I can, I'm going to pull one or more brushes and inspect them. > I'd like to isolate the problem to either the voltage regulator or the > generator. How do I do that? > I intend to get the data plate information on the generator and determine > the make, model and type, but I don't have that information right now. > I'll post more info when I can but with holiday plans may be limited for a > while. > > Assuming wiring integrity, You're down to the switch, generator > brushes/internal connections, and the regulators internal connections. If > you still have the the original style regulator on a plane of that age, it > would have what amounts to a handful of mechanical relays in it. > > > If the contacts are starting to burn/corrode, it'll cause random failures. > You might find that you can remove the cover to inspect the contacts. > > Charlie > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: One battery/two alternators IFR z-diagram
From: Rick Beebe <rick(at)beebe.org>
Date: Dec 21, 2019
On 12/20/2019 7:15 PM, user9253 wrote: > > So as mentioned in my post of a few mintues > ago, I think I'm going to revise Z-12 to (1) > remove the Endurance Bus and (2) replace the > standby regulator with something simple and > cheap. > Great idea Bob. Simpler is better. > Many VFR sport planes do not even need a standby alternator. > Now if we could just convince builders to NOT install an avionics switch. > > -------- > Joe Gores I'm sold on both counts. I'm turning my traditional 6-pack VFR GlaStar into an all-glass IFR plane and I'm wiring it using Z-12 with no endurance bus and no avionics master. I repurposed its hole for the pitot heat switch. --Rick ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 22, 2019
Subject: Re: One battery/two alternators *E-fuel injection engine*
z-diagram Hi Bob, When you're done with revising Z-12, how about taking a swing at a new diagram specifically for engines using automotive style fuel injection controllers? Current demand for just the engine in these systems run in the 12-15A range, due to extra power needed to run the high pressure fuel pump and the injectors, in addition to the ignition. Largely because of the above, two alts with their unlimited endurance (and lighter weight) seem to make more sense than multiple batteries. With many alternative engines, we also have the option of installing two identical alts, eliminating the need for an endurance buss. Given the above, and with the (somewhat aspirational) goal of having 'switchology' come as close as possible to traditional a/c (for muscle memory safety in stressful situations), I visualize a separate engine buss with everything except the starter controlled by a high current switch, and a dedicated alternator feeding the buss. Once 'alive', it should operate much like a P-mag equipped Lyc, continuing to make its own electrical power regardless of airframe status. A buss tie switch would allow powering the engine buss from the a/c buss if there's an alternator failure, and allow powering the a/c buss from the engine's alternator if the a/c alternator fails. The basic architecture should allow the same emergency switching as conventional a/c: the entire a/c could be powered down without affecting the engine's operation. With more and more E-dependent engines flying now, I hope this architecture idea will get some attention. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 22, 2019
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: The next generation of Z12
At 10:33 PM 12/21/2019, you wrote: > >On 12/20/2019 7:15 PM, user9253 wrote: >> >>So as mentioned in my post of a few mintues >>ago, I think I'm going to revise Z-12 to (1) >>remove the Endurance Bus and (2) replace the >>standby regulator with something simple and >>cheap. > > Great idea Bob. Simpler is better. >>Many VFR sport planes do not even need a standby alternator. >>Now if we could just convince builders to NOT install an avionics switch. >> >>-------- >>Joe Gores > >I'm sold on both counts. I'm turning my traditional 6-pack VFR >GlaStar into an all-glass IFR plane and I'm wiring it using Z-12 >with no endurance bus and no avionics master. I repurposed its hole >for the pitot heat switch. We've been pondering a relatively new phenomenon that may well justify keeping the 'special' bus . . . The e-bus came about because it seemed elegant to have a plan-b for battery only operations that minimize loads on the battery while eliminating contactor loads on an SD8. Obviously, 'minimizing loads' in a dual-alternator system has little or no value assuming the standby alternator will carry all of the plan-b loads. If the s/b alternator in Z-12 meets those requirements, then we're no longer concerned with the ENDURANCE bus. In recent years, we've seen a new constellation of flight instruments and avionics with greatly EXPANDED functionality but with LOWER energy demands from ship's power . . . except . . . The critters like to 'reboot' if the bus voltage is depressed below some value . . . a condition generally limited to a few tens of milliseconds during starter motor inrush. The new condition has been discussed and numerous solutions proposed and some tried. Some systems feature a small, support battery wired to support vulnerable devices during engine cranking. A variety of control protocols have been considered The simplest and most elegant solution seems to be the inclusion of a dc/dc up-converter set up for an output of 14 or so volts. This device is diode-ored to supply power to the 'brown out bus' a few milliseconds before the starter contactor closes . . . and is kept in the loop as long as the starter button is engaged. Emacs! A excerpt schematic shown here. Obviously, this requires a more robust starter push-button. Two diodes in a bridge rectifier provide the diode-or function for powering from either the MAIN bus or the brown-out booster. Since the dedicated special function bus exists, the builder COULD carry the legacy alternate alternate feed path from the battery onto the brown-out bus. Of all the philosophies we've discussed, this on seems the most elegant. I'm going to incorporate it into the next revision to Z12. To recap: (1) the need for an Endurance Bus goes away 'cause the second source of engine driven power is sufficiently robust to manage most necessary loads during loss of main alternator. (2) The legacy auto switching feature for the standby alternator serves no practical purpose. In fact, there's no reason that the s/b alternator couldn't be paired with the least expensive of regulators. (a) the probability of ever needing it is low. (b) all of the warning and adjustability features of a primo alternator controller will not add to the utility of having the high-energy source available for perhaps a few hours after loss of main alternator. (3) For airplanes fitted with brown-out sensitive appliances, an independently support bus driven with solid state voltage boost offers compact, low cost of ownership and maintenance free alternatives to any form of battery. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: The next generation of Z12
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 22, 2019
The relay needs to be electrically interlocked with the start button to prevent the DC-DC booster from supplying current to the starter motor. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493942#493942 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: don van santen <donvansanten(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 22, 2019
Subject: Re: The next generation of Z12
The TCW stand by battery, a little expensive, does the same thing with no other system changes. It also is able to keep two Advanced Flight EFIS'S alive for 30 plus minutes in case of contactor issues. On Sun, Dec 22, 2019, 19:30 user9253 wrote: > > The relay needs to be electrically interlocked with the start button to > prevent the DC-DC booster from supplying current to the starter motor. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493942#493942 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Pat Little <roughleg(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 22, 2019
Subject: Re: The next generation of Z12
Bob, do you have a part number for the brown-out booster? I'm curious about its characteristics (e.g., what's the highest voltage it might produce if the brown-out isn't so bad). Also, if the bus depression is a few tens of milliseconds, might a big hefty capacitor do the trick (charged from the main bus, not the starter feed)? On Sun, Dec 22, 2019 at 7:52 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 10:33 PM 12/21/2019, you wrote: > > > On 12/20/2019 7:15 PM, user9253 wrote: > > > So as mentioned in my post of a few mintues > ago, I think I'm going to revise Z-12 to (1) > remove the Endurance Bus and (2) replace the > standby regulator with something simple and > cheap. > > > > Great idea Bob. Simpler is better. > > > Many VFR sport planes do not even need a standby alternator. > Now if we could just convince builders to NOT install an avionics switch. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > I'm sold on both counts. I'm turning my traditional 6-pack VFR GlaStar > into an all-glass IFR plane and I'm wiring it using Z-12 with no endurance > bus and no avionics master. I repurposed its hole for the pitot heat switch. > > > We've been pondering a relatively new > phenomenon that may well justify keeping > the 'special' bus . . . > > The e-bus came about because it seemed > elegant to have a plan-b for battery > only operations that minimize loads on > the battery while eliminating contactor > loads on an SD8. Obviously, 'minimizing > loads' in a dual-alternator system > has little or no value assuming the > standby alternator will carry all > of the plan-b loads. > > If the s/b alternator in Z-12 meets > those requirements, then we're no longer > concerned with the ENDURANCE bus. > > In recent years, we've seen a new constellation > of flight instruments and avionics with greatly > EXPANDED functionality but with LOWER energy > demands from ship's power . . . except . . . > > The critters like to 'reboot' if the bus > voltage is depressed below some value . . . > a condition generally limited to a few tens > of milliseconds during starter motor inrush. > > The new condition has been discussed and > numerous solutions proposed and some > tried. Some systems feature a small, > support battery wired to support vulnerable > devices during engine cranking. A variety > of control protocols have been considered > > The simplest and most elegant solution seems > to be the inclusion of a dc/dc up-converter > set up for an output of 14 or so volts. This > device is diode-ored to supply power to the > 'brown out bus' a few milliseconds before > the starter contactor closes . . . and is > kept in the loop as long as the starter button > is engaged. > > [image: Emacs!] > A excerpt schematic shown here. Obviously, this > requires a more robust starter push-button. Two > diodes in a bridge rectifier provide the diode-or > function for powering from either the MAIN bus > or the brown-out booster. > > Since the dedicated special function bus exists, > the builder COULD carry the legacy alternate > alternate feed path from the battery onto the > brown-out bus. > > Of all the philosophies we've discussed, this on > seems the most elegant. I'm going to incorporate > it into the next revision to Z12. > > To recap: > > (1) the need for an Endurance Bus goes away > 'cause the second source of engine driven > power is sufficiently robust to manage > most necessary loads during loss of main > alternator. > > (2) The legacy auto switching feature for the standby > alternator serves no practical purpose. In > fact, there's no reason that the s/b alternator > couldn't be paired with the least expensive > of regulators. (a) the probability of ever > needing it is low. (b) all of the warning and > adjustability features of a primo alternator > controller will not add to the utility of > having the high-energy source available > for perhaps a few hours after loss of main > alternator. > > (3) For airplanes fitted with brown-out sensitive > appliances, an independently support bus > driven with solid state voltage boost offers > compact, low cost of ownership and maintenance > free alternatives to any form of battery. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 22, 2019
Subject: Re: The next generation of Z12
I completely agree with (1), (2), and (3) Bob. All would be an improvement to our current systems. As an aside, I have not had any problems with EFIS systems rebooting during engine start. It seems that Dynon, GRT, Garmin, all now take care of this internally since they are all expected to keep working during engine start since they are the engine instruments. With IFR aircraft though, it is nice to be able to program the GNC before engine start, and I've lost the programming a few times during engine start. Very frustrating, especially since even saving the flight plan doesn't yield useful results as many departures and arrivals will not load properly from a saved flight plan. On these aircraft brown-out protection for the GNCs would be very helpful. Also of possible interest, on the way to Oshkosh last year the backup battery for our PFD starting giving error messages. The builder commented that we were down to only 3 sources of power for it (2 alternators and the ship's battery). To test the theory I switched to the backup alternator (SD-8) and it was completely dead, which I said wasn't possible. At destination the builder had a look under the panel and confirmed that a wire had vibrated loose. On Sun, Dec 22, 2019 at 6:52 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 10:33 PM 12/21/2019, you wrote: > > > On 12/20/2019 7:15 PM, user9253 wrote: > > > So as mentioned in my post of a few mintues > ago, I think I'm going to revise Z-12 to (1) > remove the Endurance Bus and (2) replace the > standby regulator with something simple and > cheap. > > > > Great idea Bob. Simpler is better. > > > Many VFR sport planes do not even need a standby alternator. > Now if we could just convince builders to NOT install an avionics switch. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > I'm sold on both counts. I'm turning my traditional 6-pack VFR GlaStar > into an all-glass IFR plane and I'm wiring it using Z-12 with no endurance > bus and no avionics master. I repurposed its hole for the pitot heat switch. > > > We've been pondering a relatively new > phenomenon that may well justify keeping > the 'special' bus . . . > > The e-bus came about because it seemed > elegant to have a plan-b for battery > only operations that minimize loads on > the battery while eliminating contactor > loads on an SD8. Obviously, 'minimizing > loads' in a dual-alternator system > has little or no value assuming the > standby alternator will carry all > of the plan-b loads. > > If the s/b alternator in Z-12 meets > those requirements, then we're no longer > concerned with the ENDURANCE bus. > > In recent years, we've seen a new constellation > of flight instruments and avionics with greatly > EXPANDED functionality but with LOWER energy > demands from ship's power . . . except . . . > > The critters like to 'reboot' if the bus > voltage is depressed below some value . . . > a condition generally limited to a few tens > of milliseconds during starter motor inrush. > > The new condition has been discussed and > numerous solutions proposed and some > tried. Some systems feature a small, > support battery wired to support vulnerable > devices during engine cranking. A variety > of control protocols have been considered > > The simplest and most elegant solution seems > to be the inclusion of a dc/dc up-converter > set up for an output of 14 or so volts. This > device is diode-ored to supply power to the > 'brown out bus' a few milliseconds before > the starter contactor closes . . . and is > kept in the loop as long as the starter button > is engaged. > > [image: Emacs!] > A excerpt schematic shown here. Obviously, this > requires a more robust starter push-button. Two > diodes in a bridge rectifier provide the diode-or > function for powering from either the MAIN bus > or the brown-out booster. > > Since the dedicated special function bus exists, > the builder COULD carry the legacy alternate > alternate feed path from the battery onto the > brown-out bus. > > Of all the philosophies we've discussed, this on > seems the most elegant. I'm going to incorporate > it into the next revision to Z12. > > To recap: > > (1) the need for an Endurance Bus goes away > 'cause the second source of engine driven > power is sufficiently robust to manage > most necessary loads during loss of main > alternator. > > (2) The legacy auto switching feature for the standby > alternator serves no practical purpose. In > fact, there's no reason that the s/b alternator > couldn't be paired with the least expensive > of regulators. (a) the probability of ever > needing it is low. (b) all of the warning and > adjustability features of a primo alternator > controller will not add to the utility of > having the high-energy source available > for perhaps a few hours after loss of main > alternator. > > (3) For airplanes fitted with brown-out sensitive > appliances, an independently support bus > driven with solid state voltage boost offers > compact, low cost of ownership and maintenance > free alternatives to any form of battery. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning
From: "EricWalker" <gapadivi(at)appmail24.com>
Date: Dec 23, 2019
Mechanism of the ruling is deposed for the intelligent individuals. The change of the british assignment writers (https://www.assignmentholic.co.uk/) is brought for the forms for all kids. The role is assigned for the mixing of the laws. Path is issued for the management of the terms. The procedure is allowed for the fitness of the bloggers for the town and its impact for the sizable rules. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493951#493951 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 2019
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: The next generation of Z12
At 09:43 PM 12/22/2019, you wrote: >Bob, do you have a part number for the brown-out >booster? I'm curious about its characteristics=C2 >(e.g., what's the highest voltage=C2 it might >produce if the brown-out isn't so bad). Also, if >the bus depression is a few tens of >milliseconds, might a big hefty capacitor do the >trick (charged from the main bus, not the starter feed)? It's an off-the-shelf product off eBay, banggood, amazon. Sized to the task. It's an adjustable, set-and-forget, step up power supply. Here's an exemplar device. https://tinyurl.com/sf8wwob Note: lets not run out and buy one of THESE devices before we do some bench testing. . . from the constellation of candidates, there WILL be an entirely suitable device but I can't tell you yet that it's THIS one . . . Capacitors have been used successfully in cases where but brownout bus is lightly loaded . . . but some builder's plans called for more snort. Further, the capacitor boost device called for significant beat-n- bash on the bench to assemble a number of components from Digikey et. als. The upside of the boost-converters is that they are very nearly plug-n-play and come in a variety of sizes wherein virtually all brown-out protections can be addressed. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 2019
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: The next generation of Z12
At 09:57 PM 12/22/2019, you wrote: >I completely agree with (1), (2), and (3) Bob. All would be an >improvement to our current systems. > >As an aside, I have not had any problems with EFIS systems rebooting >during engine start. It seems that Dynon, GRT, Garmin, all now take >care of this internally since they are all expected to keep working >during engine start since they are the engine instruments. With IFR >aircraft though, it is nice to be able to program the GNC before >engine start, and I've lost the programming a few times during >engine start. Very frustrating, especially since even saving the >flight plan doesn't yield useful results as many departures and >arrivals will not load properly from a saved flight plan. On these >aircraft brown-out protection for the GNCs would be very helpful. Good input. I'm pleased that the OEM's may be stepping up to the WHOLE spirit and intent of DO160 qualification testing. We've been thinking along similar concerns. The alternate feed for the BO BUS will stay in place but labeled CLEARANCE DELIVERY. It will power up the BO BUS with the rest of the airplane stone cold. This will facilitate preflight clearance delivery, smart-whizzy programming, etc. while protecting any device vulnerable to start-up brown-out. I will have a preliminary update to Z12 to share soon. Just noticed that its last update was 14 years ago. (A) time flies when you're having fun and (B) things change . . . quite often driven by the natural evolution of products and processes. >Also of possible interest, on the way to Oshkosh last year the >backup battery for our PFD starting giving error messages. The >builder commented that we were down to only 3 sources of power for >it (2 alternators and the ship's battery). To test the theory I >switched to the backup alternator (SD-8) and it was completely dead, >which I said wasn't possible. At destination the builder had a look >under the panel and confirmed that a wire had vibrated loose. Which is why one has preflight check lists or did he state that the alternator passed pre-flight and the break occurred on THIS leg of the flight? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 2019
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: The next generation of Z12
At 09:24 PM 12/22/2019, you wrote: > >The relay needs to be electrically interlocked with the start button to >prevent the DC-DC booster from supplying current to the starter motor. You lost me . . . how would that happen? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 23, 2019
Subject: Re: The next generation of Z12
It's a day VFR only ship so after regular checks during Phase 1 I basically forgot about it. It should be added to the checklist. On Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 08:23 Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 09:57 PM 12/22/2019, you wrote: > > I completely agree with (1), (2), and (3) Bob. All would be an improvement > to our current systems. > > As an aside, I have not had any problems with EFIS systems rebooting > during engine start. It seems that Dynon, GRT, Garmin, all now take care of > this internally since they are all expected to keep working during engine > start since they are the engine instruments. With IFR aircraft though, it > is nice to be able to program the GNC before engine start, and I've lost > the programming a few times during engine start. Very frustrating, > especially since even saving the flight plan doesn't yield useful results > as many departures and arrivals will not load properly from a saved flight > plan. On these aircraft brown-out protection for the GNCs would be very > helpful. > > > Good input. I'm pleased that the OEM's may > be stepping up to the WHOLE spirit and intent > of DO160 qualification testing. > > We've been thinking along similar concerns. > The alternate feed for the BO BUS will stay > in place but labeled CLEARANCE DELIVERY. > > It will power up the BO BUS with the rest > of the airplane stone cold. This will facilitate > preflight clearance delivery, smart-whizzy > programming, etc. while protecting any device > vulnerable to start-up brown-out. > > I will have a preliminary update to Z12 to share > soon. Just noticed that its last update was > 14 years ago. (A) time flies when you're having > fun and (B) things change . . . quite often > driven by the natural evolution of products > and processes. > > > Also of possible interest, on the way to Oshkosh last year the backup > battery for our PFD starting giving error messages. The builder commented > that we were down to only 3 sources of power for it (2 alternators and the > ship's battery). To test the theory I switched to the backup alternator > (SD-8) and it was completely dead, which I said wasn't possible. At > destination the builder had a look under the panel and confirmed that a > wire had vibrated loose. > > > Which is why one has preflight check lists > or did he state that the alternator passed > pre-flight and the break occurred on THIS > leg of the flight? > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: The next generation of Z12
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 23, 2019
> You lost me . . . how would that happen? If the pilot inadvertently leaves the brownout relay switch turned on, then the relay contacts provide a current path between the DC-DC booster and starter motor via diode, brownout bus, relay contacts, main battery bus, battery, battery contactor, starter contactor, starter motor, not to mention other aircraft loads. To make the circuit foolproof, the relay coil circuit should be wired in series with the normally closed half of a DPDT start push button. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493959#493959 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 2019
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: The next generation of Z12
At 09:24 PM 12/22/2019, you wrote: > >The relay needs to be electrically interlocked with the start button to >prevent the DC-DC booster from supplying current to the starter motor. You lost me . . . how would that happen? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 2019
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: The next generation of Z12
At 10:47 AM 12/23/2019, you wrote: > > > > You lost me . . . how would that happen? > >If the pilot inadvertently leaves the brownout relay switch turned >on, then the > relay contacts provide a current path between the DC-DC booster and starter >motor via diode, brownout bus, relay contacts, main battery bus, battery, >battery contactor, starter contactor, starter motor, not to mention other >aircraft loads. To make the circuit foolproof, the relay coil >circuit should be >wired in series with the normally closed half of a DPDT start push button. > >-------- >Joe Gores Good catch . . . I've published the P1 edition of Rev N to Z-12 at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z12NP1.pdf Per Joe's catch, I've routed the brownout booster power through normally closed contacts of the CLEARANCE DELIVERY relay. So if the switch is inadvertently left closed during start, there will be no back-feed of boost power to the rest of the system. The worst thing that happens is that some electro-whizzies may reboot . . . Got to quit doing 'fun stuff' and get onto Xmas preparations. With our respective, extended families the next week or so will be really busy. Hope you all are going to have as much fun as I am! Merry Christmas . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Pengilly" <Peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Subject: Single alternator architecture
Date: Dec 23, 2019
Does anyone have any experience of using a small 1Ah battery as a brown-out booster? In my last aircraft I implemented an endurance bus with the main bus divided in half by a large diode. The electrical system was constructed to provide around an hours' flying time in IMC after alternator failure. When my alternator quit 1000 miles from home I flew (VFR) for 6.5 hours and 3 engine starts on the battery, although the 3rd engine start (after 6 hours) was a little sluggish. My conclusion was the endurance bus was somewhat redundant as I load shed more aggressively than the endurance bus did. I guess an alternative conclusion is that I put too much on the endurance bus. If I did not have an e-bus I would retain the switch to connect the battery directly to the busbar (shedding the main contactor after engine start) as it also allows the field current to be switched off with the master (no separate alternator switch). When operating normally there was no brown out during start as the EFIS had an internal battery, but I did wait until after start-up to switch on the GPS. I had considered including a small lead-acid battery to keep all the avionics on-line during starting but never did as I flew IFR only occasionally. I have now just bought a new (to me) aircraft that suffers from brown out during starting. The architecture is a little curious in that it has an Exp Bus 2 (ugh) and routes power to the engine monitor (VM-1000) through the 'Avionics' switch. As soon as the starter button is pressed the VM1000 quits, which is not ideal. I'm once again thinking about a small 1Ah lead-acid as an anti brown-out measure, for example an LC-R121R3PG. These batteries weigh around 1.3 lb, will give three amps for around 10 minutes and are relatively inexpensive. I also have several available each year as they are removed from DA42s my company maintains. Once I have moved to a c/b based system is there much of a downside to using a small battery as a brown-out booster (and changing it out every year)? It would probably be connected along the lines of Z-35. This is to hold up the VM1000 and also a modern GPS - such as a GPS175 - once installed. Can anyone point to an inexpensive "brown-out booster" that I could use instead of a battery? Regards, Peter ________________________________________________________________________________
From: don van santen <donvansanten(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 23, 2019
Subject:
Peter , I use the TCW 6ah stand by in my RV7. Works perfectly. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Single alternator architecture
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 23, 2019
On 12/23/2019 5:21 PM, Peter Pengilly wrote: > > Does anyone have any experience of using a small 1Ah battery as a > brown-out booster? > > In my last aircraft I implemented an endurance bus with the main bus > divided in half by a large diode. The electrical system was > constructed to provide around an hours flying time in IMC after > alternator failure. When my alternator quit 1000 miles from home I > flew (VFR) for 6.5 hours and 3 engine starts on the battery, although > the 3^rd engine start (after 6 hours) was a little sluggish. My > conclusion was the endurance bus was somewhat redundant as I load shed > more aggressively than the endurance bus did. I guess an alternative > conclusion is that I put too much on the endurance bus. If I did not > have an e-bus I would retain the switch to connect the battery > directly to the busbar (shedding the main contactor after engine > start) as it also allows the field current to be switched off with the > master (no separate alternator switch). > > When operating normally there was no brown out during start as the > EFIS had an internal battery, but I did wait until after start-up to > switch on the GPS. I had considered including a small lead-acid > battery to keep all the avionics on-line during starting but never did > as I flew IFR only occasionally. > > I have now just bought a new (to me) aircraft that suffers from brown > out during starting. The architecture is a little curious in that it > has an Exp Bus 2 (ugh) and routes power to the engine monitor > (VM-1000) through the Avionics switch. As soon as the starter button > is pressed the VM1000 quits, which is not ideal. Im once again > thinking about a small 1Ah lead-acid as an anti brown-out measure, for > example an LC-R121R3PG. These batteries weigh around 1.3 lb, will give > three amps for around 10 minutes and are relatively inexpensive. I > also have several available each year as they are removed from DA42s > my company maintains. > > Once I have moved to a c/b based system is there much of a downside to > using a small battery as a brown-out booster (and changing it out > every year)? It would probably be connected along the lines of Z-35. > This is to hold up the VM1000 and also a modern GPS such as a GPS175 > once installed. Can anyone point to an inexpensive brown-out > booster that I could use instead of a battery? > > Regards, Peter > I've long considered (but never implemented) a system using an equivalent of the 'brownout booster' switching power supply being currently discussed, but feeding its output to a small/medium battery which would then power the 'essential' avionics (an E-bus). The switcher would be adjusted to output typical alternator voltage; 14-14.5V, or the upper edge of whatever is recommended as a safe 'float' voltage for the chosen battery. Avionics would then be isolated from ship's power and be backed up by the battery. When I 1st started contemplating this, the power supplies were prohibitively expensive, but now that they practically pay you to take them off their hands.... Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: EFI current requirements
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Dec 23, 2019
For those interested I'm sharing my calculations re dual SDS EM-5-F current requirements for my RV-6A O-360 not yet flying. The file called "Loads... " shows how I arrived at current requirements of 14.6/9.4/8 amps for low altitude/cruise/endurance cruise. The file called "Calculations... " includes how I arrived at injector current. The image called "Pump current... " is where I got 5.25 A at 45 psi. All files are at https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u6GeZo6pmBWsKykLNVQMvu4o1VEVyP4K -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F Dual Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493971#493971 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com>
Date: Dec 23, 2019
Subject: Brownout Protection
TCW has a super capacitor widget for just this purpose! http://www.tcwtech.com/ Paul ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Dec 23, 2019
Hi Deems... ref: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LR3_LV_Led_1.jpg Deems Davis wrote: > I would like to subsitute an LED for the Low Voltage bulb that came with > the B&C LR3C-14 . I posed the question to Tim Hedding @ B&C and received > this in response. > > If you use an LED instead of an incandescent lamp, install a 470 - 510 Ohm, > 1/2 Watt, resistor between terminals 3 and 5 of the LR3C-14 (or the SB1B-14) > so that the LED does not glow dimly all of the time. > > Deems Davis # 406 > Engine / Wiring and Panel Stuff > http://deemsrv10.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F Dual Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=493975#493975 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DANIEL PELLETIER <pelletie1959(at)me.com>
Subject: Re: [Please Read] - Last Official Day of List Fund
Raiser!
Date: Dec 24, 2019
Hi Matt, I made a 200$ contribution by paypal to the list and I didnt receive my airband scanner. Maybe I forgot to give you my address. Regards. Daniel Pelletier 1407 St-Andre LAssomption, Qc. J5W 5M4 Envoy de mon iPad > Le 30 nov. 2019 15:21, Matt Dralle a crit : > > > Dear Listers, > > It's November 30th and that always means a couple of things. Its my birthday again - 56! :-) But it also means that it's that last official day of the Matronics Email List Fund Raiser! If you been thinking about picking up one of those really nice incentive gifts now is the time to jump on it!! > > If you've been meaning to make a Contribution this month but have been putting it off for some reason, NOW is the time! > > I will be posting the List of Contributors in a few days, so you'll probably want to be known as a person that supported the Lists! > > I want to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution this year in support of our Lists. It is your generosity that keeps this operation running and I don't ever forget it. > > The List Contribution Web Site is fast and easy. Please support our habit by making your Contribution right now: > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to: > > Matt Dralle / Matronics > 581 Jeannie Way > Livermore CA 94550 > USA > > Thank you in advance! > > Matt Dralle > Matronics Email List Administrator > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: [Please Read] - Last Official Day of List Fund
Raiser!
Date: Dec 24, 2019
Those things come but it takes a month or two. I cant remember the exact time frame, but its been that way the last few years. Ive never missed getting whatever it was I signed up for. Tim > On Dec 24, 2019, at 1:26 PM, DANIEL PELLETIER wrote: > > > Hi Matt, > > I made a 200$ contribution by paypal to the list and I didnt receive my airband scanner. Maybe I forgot to give you my address. > > Regards. > > Daniel Pelletier > 1407 St-Andre > LAssomption, Qc. > J5W 5M4 > > > > Envoy de mon iPad > >> Le 30 nov. 2019 15:21, Matt Dralle a crit : >> >> >> Dear Listers, >> >> It's November 30th and that always means a couple of things. Its my birthday again - 56! :-) But it also means that it's that last official day of the Matronics Email List Fund Raiser! If you been thinking about picking up one of those really nice incentive gifts now is the time to jump on it!! >> >> If you've been meaning to make a Contribution this month but have been putting it off for some reason, NOW is the time! >> >> I will be posting the List of Contributors in a few days, so you'll probably want to be known as a person that supported the Lists! >> >> I want to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution this year in support of our Lists. It is your generosity that keeps this operation running and I don't ever forget it. >> >> The List Contribution Web Site is fast and easy. Please support our habit by making your Contribution right now: >> >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to: >> >> Matt Dralle / Matronics >> 581 Jeannie Way >> Livermore CA 94550 >> USA >> >> Thank you in advance! >> >> Matt Dralle >> Matronics Email List Administrator >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 24, 2019
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: [Please Read] - Last Official Day of List Fund
Raiser! Hi Daniel, Your Contribution was received and you are slated to receive the Airband Scanner as requested. However the 2019 Gifts have not shipped yet. They should arrive in January 2020. Thank you, Matt At 11:53 AM 12/24/2019 Tuesday, Tim Olson wrote: > >Those things come but it takes a month or two. I cant remember the exact time frame, but its been that way the last few years. Ive never missed getting whatever it was I signed up for. > >Tim > >> On Dec 24, 2019, at 1:26 PM, DANIEL PELLETIER wrote: >> >> >> Hi Matt, >> >> I made a 200$ contribution by paypal to the list and I didnt receive my airband scanner. Maybe I forgot to give you my address. >> >> Regards. >> >> Daniel Pelletier >> 1407 St-Andre >> LAssomption, Qc. >> J5W 5M4 >> >> >> >> Envoy de mon iPad >> >>> Le 30 nov. 2019 15:21, Matt Dralle a crit : >>> >>> >>> Dear Listers, >>> >>> It's November 30th and that always means a couple of things. Its my birthday again - 56! :-) But it also means that it's that last official day of the Matronics Email List Fund Raiser! If you been thinking about picking up one of those really nice incentive gifts now is the time to jump on it!! >>> >>> If you've been meaning to make a Contribution this month but have been putting it off for some reason, NOW is the time! >>> >>> I will be posting the List of Contributors in a few days, so you'll probably want to be known as a person that supported the Lists! >>> >>> I want to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution this year in support of our Lists. It is your generosity that keeps this operation running and I don't ever forget it. >>> >>> The List Contribution Web Site is fast and easy. Please support our habit by making your Contribution right now: >>> >>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> >>> Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to: >>> >>> Matt Dralle / Matronics >>> 581 Jeannie Way >>> Livermore CA 94550 >>> USA >>> >>> Thank you in advance! >>> >>> Matt Dralle >>> Matronics Email List Administrator >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > Matt G Dralle | Matronics | 581 Jeannie Way | Livermore | CA | 94550 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DANIEL PELLETIER <pelletie1959(at)me.com>
Subject: Re: [Please Read] - Last Official Day of List Fund
Raiser!
Date: Dec 25, 2019
Thank you Matt. Merry christmass Envoy de mon iPad > Le 24 dc. 2019 22:14, Matt Dralle a crit : > > > Hi Daniel, > > Your Contribution was received and you are slated to receive the Airband Scanner as requested. However the 2019 Gifts have not shipped yet. They should arrive in January 2020. > > Thank you, > > Matt > > > > At 11:53 AM 12/24/2019 Tuesday, Tim Olson wrote: >> >> Those things come but it takes a month or two. I cant remember the exact time frame, but its been that way the last few years. Ive never missed getting whatever it was I signed up for. >> >> Tim >> >>>> On Dec 24, 2019, at 1:26 PM, DANIEL PELLETIER wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi Matt, >>> >>> I made a 200$ contribution by paypal to the list and I didnt receive my airband scanner. Maybe I forgot to give you my address. >>> >>> Regards. >>> >>> Daniel Pelletier >>> 1407 St-Andre >>> LAssomption, Qc. >>> J5W 5M4 >>> >>> >>> >>> Envoy de mon iPad >>> >>>> Le 30 nov. 2019 15:21, Matt Dralle a crit : >>>> >>>> >>>> Dear Listers, >>>> >>>> It's November 30th and that always means a couple of things. Its my birthday again - 56! :-) But it also means that it's that last official day of the Matronics Email List Fund Raiser! If you been thinking about picking up one of those really nice incentive gifts now is the time to jump on it!! >>>> >>>> If you've been meaning to make a Contribution this month but have been putting it off for some reason, NOW is the time! >>>> >>>> I will be posting the List of Contributors in a few days, so you'll probably want to be known as a person that supported the Lists! >>>> >>>> I want to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution this year in support of our Lists. It is your generosity that keeps this operation running and I don't ever forget it. >>>> >>>> The List Contribution Web Site is fast and easy. Please support our habit by making your Contribution right now: >>>> >>>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>>> >>>> Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to: >>>> >>>> Matt Dralle / Matronics >>>> 581 Jeannie Way >>>> Livermore CA 94550 >>>> USA >>>> >>>> Thank you in advance! >>>> >>>> Matt Dralle >>>> Matronics Email List Administrator >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > Matt G Dralle | Matronics | 581 Jeannie Way | Livermore | CA | 94550 > 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email > http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 26, 2019
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning
At 09:34 PM 12/23/2019, you wrote: > > >Hi Deems... ref: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LR3_LV_Led_1.jpg > > >Deems Davis wrote: > > I would like to subsitute an LED for the Low Voltage bulb that came with > > the B&C LR3C-14 . I posed the question to Tim Hedding @ B&C and received > > this in response. > > > > If you use an LED instead of an incandescent lamp, install a 470 - 510 Ohm, > > 1/2 Watt, resistor between terminals 3 and 5 of the LR3C-14 (or > the SB1B-14) > > so that the LED does not glow dimly all of the time. Either of these techniques works . . . in fact, Tim's suggestion is probably the most elegant. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2019
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: 2019 List of Contributors
Dear Listers, The 2019 Matronics Email List and Forum Fund Raiser officially ended a couple of weeks ago and it's time that I published this year's List of Contributors. It is the people on this list that directly make these Email Lists and Forums possible! Their generous Contributions keep the servers and Internet connection up and running! You can still show your support this year and pick up a great gift at the same time. The Contribution Web Site is fast, easy, and secure: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 And finally, I'm proud to present The 2019 Fund Raiser List of Contributors: http://www.matronics.com/loc Thank you again to everyone that made a Contribution this year!! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List & Forum Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2019
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Beech Explosion
Wichita Beechcraft (Textron East Campus) suffered a massive explosion that's being attributed to a malfunction in a liquid nitrogen system https://tinyurl.com/roo35fk My brother-in-law who lives blocks from the facility tells me it really rattled his house and shook the ground. Pictures in the links above show a massive energy release that disassembled one end of Beechcraft Plant III and damaged the building just south which I think used to be a finishing (interiors and exterior paint) facility. Thankfully, only a hand full of holiday crews were on site at the time. 15 injured of which 11 were transported . . . one was 'serious'. I've never heard of a 'nitrogen' explosion not involving an extothermic reaction . . . but I don't think there was any combustion associated with the event. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2019
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning (ADDENDUM)
>>Hi Deems... ref: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LR3_LV_Led_1.jpg >> >> >>Deems Davis wrote: >> > I would like to subsitute an LED for the Low Voltage bulb that came with >> > the B&C LR3C-14 . I posed the question to Tim Hedding @ B&C and received >> > this in response. >> > >> > If you use an LED instead of an incandescent lamp, install a 470 >> - 510 Ohm, >> > 1/2 Watt, resistor between terminals 3 and 5 of the LR3C-14 (or >> the SB1B-14) >> > so that the LED does not glow dimly all of the time. > > Either of these techniques works . . . in fact, > Tim's suggestion is probably the most elegant. Now for the rest of the story . . . Tim's simple resistor suggestion is valid only if your proposed LED substitute has a resistor already in series with it . . . many off-the-shelf LED indicators are RATED at 12 volts and include the necessary series resistor to properly power the approx 3.5 volt LED. If you're wanting to install a rudimentary led in the as-supplied lamp fixture from B&C, you'll need to add TWO resistors wired as shown in the link above. As a general rule, I recommend converting your as-supplied fixture to LED using the rudimentary lamp Bright White LED 5mm (4 pack) These are pretty easy to build into the incandescent fixture . . . either the as-supplied or one of your own acquisition. The advantage of a DIY indicator is that you can select a high-intensity lamp (10K+ MCD) for sunlight viewability. If anyone needs a high-output lamp for their project, drop me an address and I'll fix you up. I have RED, AMBER, WHITE, BLUE and GREEN high-intensity lamps on hand. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ed Gilroy <egilroy(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 27, 2019
Subject: Re: Beech Explosion
The news said something about a 4 inch gas main being breached by the nitrogen release. On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 4:23 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> > > > Wichita Beechcraft (Textron East Campus) suffered > a massive explosion that's being attributed to > a malfunction in a liquid nitrogen system > > > https://tinyurl.com/roo35fk > > My brother-in-law who lives blocks from the facility > tells me it really rattled his house and shook the > ground. > > Pictures in the links above show a massive energy > release that disassembled one end of Beechcraft > Plant III and damaged the building just south > which I think used to be a finishing (interiors > and exterior paint) facility. > > Thankfully, only a hand full of holiday crews > were on site at the time. 15 injured of which > 11 were transported . . . one was 'serious'. > > I've never heard of a 'nitrogen' explosion not > involving an extothermic reaction . . . but I > don't think there was any combustion associated > with the event. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2019
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning (ADDENDUM)
>>Hi Deems... ref: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LR3_LV_Led_1.jpg >> >> >>Deems Davis wrote: >> > I would like to subsitute an LED for the Low Voltage bulb that came with >> > the B&C LR3C-14 . I posed the question to Tim Hedding @ B&C and received >> > this in response. >> > >> > If you use an LED instead of an incandescent lamp, install a 470 >> - 510 Ohm, >> > 1/2 Watt, resistor between terminals 3 and 5 of the LR3C-14 (or >> the SB1B-14) >> > so that the LED does not glow dimly all of the time. > > Either of these techniques works . . . in fact, > Tim's suggestion is probably the most elegant. Now for the rest of the story . . . Tim's simple resistor suggestion is valid only if your proposed LED substitute has a resistor already in series with it . . . many off-the-shelf LED indicators are RATED at 12 volts and include the necessary series resistor to properly power the approx 3.5 volt LED. If you're wanting to install a rudimentary led in the as-supplied lamp fixture from B&C, you'll need to add TWO resistors wired as shown in the link above. As a general rule, I recommend converting your as-supplied fixture to LED using the rudimentary lamp Bright White LED 5mm (4 pack) These are pretty easy to build into the incandescent fixture . . . either the as-supplied or one of your own acquisition. The advantage of a DIY indicator is that you can select a high-intensity lamp (10K+ MCD) for sunlight viewability. If anyone needs a high-output lamp for their project, drop me an address and I'll fix you up. I have RED, AMBER, WHITE, BLUE and GREEN high-intensity lamps on hand. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Small diameter Taxi Light Needed
From: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Dec 28, 2019
Hi Group I have a Europa XS with limited real estate on the cowl or EZ mounting of a Taxi LED. I have a Kuntzleman 3" diameter Hockey Puck and could mutilate the cowl and put a clear cover over it for a lot of work. BTW the angle coverage of Kuntzleman is 2 degrees. It's just about marginal for taxi. My build partner has a LED Headlight for his Mountain bike that is nothing short of amazing. It has a hot spot ~ 15 degree angle and incidental 25 degree coverage. It has a single large area of yellow LED that's ~ 1.2" in diameter. I was comparing light from my Volvo station wagon with H7 Halogen right only headlight, Kuntzleman and Bike Headlight. Bike headlight is whiter, brighter, better coverage than either of the other 2. The bike mfg says it measured a precise 1,000 Lumens, but for me it seems that a lot of Mfg kinda stretch the truth. Acid test going out and trying it and comparing works best for me. Amazing for 1.2". The problem is it has a control that is not conducive for aircraft. Computer controls things including an innovative sense of current at the LED. They drive it hard but control controls things great. It runs off a single Lithium battery. Being very careful to try and drive LED with a driver, worked OK sneaking up on current to match controller. When shut off upon turn on burned out LED. Anyway my question: Does anyone know of a small LED that is ~ 1.25" in diameter with wide angle and throws out incredible light? Probably needs the precise current control circuit. Can pretty EZ mount 2 on cowl. Aerosun sells a small LED but it only has a 10 degree angle. Ron P. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494074#494074 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning (ADDENDUM)
From: "markfw" <markwheelermd(at)icloud.com>
Date: Dec 28, 2019
Bob, I could use two of the RED high intensity bulbs. I assume you will tell me how to pay. To finish off another thread, if I have a 40 amp alternator and I want to fuse-protect the B-lead would you recommend a 50 amp (or other) ANL fuse somewhere forward, like on the firewall? Thanks. Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494076#494076 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: EFI current requirements
From: "markfw" <markwheelermd(at)icloud.com>
Date: Dec 28, 2019
John, This is a very impressive amount of due diligence on your part. Thank you so much for sharing all of this. It will help me up my game in my own planning. The data on EM-5 current draw is very useful since I was using much higher numbers derived from Ross's very conservative numbers quoted in his manuals. Using your numbers I can see that a single large Lithium battery should give me all of the ALT-OUT endurance I would ever need over water or mountains here in the West. Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494077#494077 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: EFI current requirements
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Dec 28, 2019
markfw wrote: > John, > > This is a very impressive amount of due diligence on your part. > > Thank you so much for sharing all of this. It will help me up my game in my own planning. > > The data on EM-5 current draw is very useful since I was using much higher numbers derived from Ross's very conservative numbers quoted in his manuals. > > Using your numbers I can see that a single large Lithium battery should give me all of the ALT-OUT endurance I would ever need over water or mountains here in the West. > > Mark Thanks Mark... you might learn something on VAF... thread started by Ross Farnham of SDS on 12/24/2019... "Backup Battery Testing LiFePO4 vs. AGM"... http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=178037 If you join VAF you can subscribe to the thread. -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F Dual Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494078#494078 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 28, 2019
Subject: Re: Small diameter Taxi Light Needed
On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 1:43 PM rparigoris wrote: > rparigor(at)hotmail.com> > > Hi Group I have a Europa XS with limited real estate on the cowl or EZ > mounting of a Taxi LED. I have a Kuntzleman 3" diameter Hockey Puck and > could mutilate the cowl and put a clear cover over it for a lot of work. > BTW the angle coverage of Kuntzleman is 2 degrees. It's just about marginal > for taxi. My build partner has a LED Headlight for his Mountain bike that > is nothing short of amazing. It has a hot spot ~ 15 degree angle and > incidental 25 degree coverage. It has a single large area of yellow LED > that's ~ 1.2" in diameter. I was comparing light from my Volvo station > wagon with H7 Halogen right only headlight, Kuntzleman and Bike Headlight. > Bike headlight is whiter, brighter, better coverage than either of the > other 2. The bike mfg says it measured a precise 1,000 Lumens, but for me > it seems that a lot of Mfg kinda stretch the truth. Acid test going out and > trying it and comparing works best for me. Amazing for 1.2". The problem is > it has a control that is not conducive! > for aircraft. Computer controls things including an innovative sense of > current at the LED. They drive it hard but control controls things great. > It runs off a single Lithium battery. Being very careful to try and drive > LED with a driver, worked OK sneaking up on current to match controller. > When shut off upon turn on burned out LED. Anyway my question: Does anyone > know of a small LED that is ~ 1.25" in diameter with wide angle and throws > out incredible light? Probably needs the precise current control circuit. > Can pretty EZ mount 2 on cowl. Aerosun sells a small LED but it only has a > 10 degree angle. Ron P. > > If you can live with 2" dia, search for 12Volt MR16 LED. The old halogen > versions are used as landing lights, so should be bright enough. Projection > angle can be selected from narrow spot to wide angle. If you must have the > smaller dia, try searching for XML-T6 flashlight or 'headlight'. There will > be some diy involved, but the smaller versions are roughly the dia you want. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 29, 2019
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Small diameter Taxi Light Needed
I made landing a marker lights with these. 20, 30 & 50 Watt LEDs | MPJA.COM | | | | | | | | | | | 20, 30 & 50 Watt LEDs | MPJA.COM | | | =C2-Also, add a LED turn signal controller, and you have nice strobe ligh ts. tmail.com> wrote: m> Hi Group I have a Europa XS with limited real estate on the cowl or EZ moun ting of a Taxi LED. I have a Kuntzleman 3" diameter Hockey Puck and could m utilate the cowl and put a clear cover over it for a lot of work. BTW the a ngle coverage of Kuntzleman is 2 degrees. It's just about marginal for taxi .=C2- My build partner has a LED Headlight for his Mountain bike that is nothing short of amazing. It has a hot spot ~ 15 degree angle and incidenta l 25 degree coverage. It has a single large area of yellow LED that's ~ 1.2 " in diameter. I was comparing light from my Volvo station wagon with H7 Ha logen right only headlight, Kuntzleman and Bike Headlight. Bike headlight i s whiter, brighter, better coverage than either of the other 2. The bike mf g says it measured a precise 1,000 Lumens, but for me it seems that a lot o f Mfg kinda stretch the truth. Acid test going out and trying it and compar ing works best for me. Amazing for 1.2". The problem is it has a control th at is not conducive! =C2- for aircraft. Computer controls things including an innovative sense of current at the LED. They drive it hard but control controls things grea t. It runs off a single Lithium battery. Being very careful to try and driv e LED with a driver, worked OK sneaking up on current to match controller. When shut off upon turn on burned out LED. Anyway my question: Does anyone know of a small LED that is ~ 1.25" in diameter with wide angle and throws out incredible light? Probably needs the precise current control circuit. C an pretty EZ mount 2 on cowl. Aerosun sells a small LED but it only has a 1 0 degree angle. Ron P. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494074#494074 =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - S - WIKI - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Small diameter Taxi Light Needed
From: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Dec 29, 2019
Hi echristley What did you use for lens on your landing light? Ron P. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494092#494092 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: EFI current requirements
From: "markfw" <markwheelermd(at)icloud.com>
Date: Dec 29, 2019
John, Thanks for the link to the thread of Ross's evaluation of the Shorei battery. This is a good example of non-truth in advertising. However, according to Ross the Shorei weighs 2.2 pounds and is good for approximately 6 ah. The EarthX ETX 900 battery is rated by them at 15.6 ah and weighs 4.9 pounds. Since these Lithium battery manufacturers apparently all use the same (or similar) Chinese Lithium cells I would say that EarthX is rating their batteries properly for continuous use rather than just starting. I will be using an EarthX 24 ah single battery in my day-VFR Carbon Cub. I will also have the EarthX 2 ah portable "starter" battery if I forget to turn off my master switch. It will be interesting to see if it will actually start my engine. It's counterintuitive that such a small battery could start an O-340, but it can supposedly do it. I am a Vans Air Force subscriber. I lurk there and learn a ton from the thousands of RV pilots and builders. Thanks. Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494093#494093 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Pengilly" <Peter(at)sportingaero.com>
Subject: Small diameter Taxi Light Needed
Date: Dec 29, 2019
Ron, Have you looked at these? https://flyleds.com/products/#!/Single-Spotlights/p/108852015/category=0 Says 1200 lumens over 8 degrees. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com On Behalf Of rparigoris Sent: 28 December 2019 19:37 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Small diameter Taxi Light Needed --> Hi Group I have a Europa XS with limited real estate on the cowl or EZ mounting of a Taxi LED. I have a Kuntzleman 3" diameter Hockey Puck and could mutilate the cowl and put a clear cover over it for a lot of work. BTW the angle coverage of Kuntzleman is 2 degrees. It's just about marginal for taxi. My build partner has a LED Headlight for his Mountain bike that is nothing short of amazing. It has a hot spot ~ 15 degree angle and incidental 25 degree coverage. It has a single large area of yellow LED that's ~ 1.2" in diameter. I was comparing light from my Volvo station wagon with H7 Halogen right only headlight, Kuntzleman and Bike Headlight. Bike headlight is whiter, brighter, better coverage than either of the other 2. The bike mfg says it measured a precise 1,000 Lumens, but for me it seems that a lot of Mfg kinda stretch the truth. Acid test going out and trying it and comparing works best for me. Amazing for 1.2". The problem is it has a control that is not conducive! for aircraft. Computer controls things including an innovative sense of current at the LED. They drive it hard but control controls things great. It runs off a single Lithium battery. Being very careful to try and drive LED with a driver, worked OK sneaking up on current to match controller. When shut off upon turn on burned out LED. Anyway my question: Does anyone know of a small LED that is ~ 1.25" in diameter with wide angle and throws out incredible light? Probably needs the precise current control circuit. Can pretty EZ mount 2 on cowl. Aerosun sells a small LED but it only has a 10 degree angle. Ron P. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494074#494074 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2019
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Small diameter Taxi Light Needed
The light is mounted in the leading edge of the wing on a 601XL.=C2- It h as a piece of plexiglass in front of it, but nothing that could be consider ed a "lens". ail.com> wrote: m> Hi echristley What did you use for lens on your landing light? Ron P. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494092#494092 =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - S - WIKI - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning (ADDENDUM)
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 29, 2019
The alternator fuse protects the battery from a shorted "B" lead or alternator. The fuse should be located near the battery end of the B lead. A 40 amp ANL or 50 amp Maxi Fuse should work. https://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/automotive/datasheets/fuses/automotive-fuses/littelfuse_maxi_32v_blade_fuses.pdf -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494095#494095 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Small diameter Taxi Light Needed
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 29, 2019
Just a little heads-up before ordering; some of the linked LEDs and driver modules are set up for household line voltage. Read the product descriptions carefully. I love the idea for at least a taxi light. Are they bright enough to use as an actual landing light, with such a wide light pattern? Beyond that, looking at the 110v versions is making me think about diy hangar lights. High-bay LEDs are running anywhere from $50-$200. A couple of those heatsinked to a 1 sq ft sheet of aluminum should come close to what I'd get 'pre-packaged' for $100. Charlie On 12/28/2019 11:23 PM, Ernest Christley wrote: > I made landing a marker lights with these. > > 20, 30 & 50 Watt LEDs | MPJA.COM > > > > > > > > > > 20, 30 & 50 Watt LEDs | MPJA.COM > > > > Also, add a LED turn signal controller, and you have nice strobe lights. > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Group I have a Europa XS with limited real estate on the cowl or EZ > mounting of a Taxi LED. I have a Kuntzleman 3" diameter Hockey Puck > and could mutilate the cowl and put a clear cover over it for a lot of > work. BTW the angle coverage of Kuntzleman is 2 degrees. It's just > about marginal for taxi. My build partner has a LED Headlight for his > Mountain bike that is nothing short of amazing. It has a hot spot ~ 15 > degree angle and incidental 25 degree coverage. It has a single large > area of yellow LED that's ~ 1.2" in diameter. I was comparing light > from my Volvo station wagon with H7 Halogen right only headlight, > Kuntzleman and Bike Headlight. Bike headlight is whiter, brighter, > better coverage than either of the other 2. The bike mfg says it > measured a precise 1,000 Lumens, but for me it seems that a lot of Mfg > kinda stretch the truth. Acid test going out and trying it and > comparing works best for me. Amazing for 1.2". The problem is it has a > control that is not conducive! > for aircraft. Computer controls things including an innovative sense > of current at the LED. They drive it hard but control controls things > great. It runs off a single Lithium battery. Being very careful to try > and drive LED with a driver, worked OK sneaking up on current to match > controller. When shut off upon turn on burned out LED. Anyway my > question: Does anyone know of a small LED that is ~ 1.25" in diameter > with wide angle and throws out incredible light? Probably needs the > precise current control circuit. Can pretty EZ mount 2 on cowl. > Aerosun sells a small LED but it only has a 10 degree angle. Ron P. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494074#494074 > > > http://w &nbs================ > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?A - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > http://forp; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI > -http://wiki.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.c > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Pat Little <roughleg(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 29, 2019
Subject: Re: B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning (ADDENDUM)
Regarding the placement of ANL or other current limiter. If it is to protect the battery=94and not the wire=94what is the reason to locate it near the battery end? On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 5:23 PM user9253 wrote: > > The alternator fuse protects the battery from a shorted "B" lead or > alternator. > The fuse should be located near the battery end of the B lead. > A 40 amp ANL or 50 amp Maxi Fuse should work. > > https://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/automotive/datasheets/fuses/automotive -fuses/littelfuse_maxi_32v_blade_fuses.pdf > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494095#494095 > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning
(ADDENDUM)
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 29, 2019
There may be a failure to communicate. In the case of a short, the ANL protects the B lead *from* the battery's incredibly high source current. A secondary benefit would be protecting the battery from rapid discharge. On 12/29/2019 9:35 PM, Pat Little wrote: > Regarding the placement of ANL or other current limiter. If it is to > protect the batteryand not the wirewhat is the reason to locate it > near the battery end? > > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 5:23 PM user9253 > wrote: > > > > > The alternator fuse protects the battery from a shorted "B" lead > or alternator. > The fuse should be located near the battery end of the B lead. > A 40 amp ANL or 50 amp Maxi Fuse should work. > https://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/automotive/datasheets/fuses/automotive-fuses/littelfuse_maxi_32v_blade_fuses.pdf > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494095#494095 > > > ========== > br> fts!) > r> > rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > ========== > - > Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ========== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > WIKI - > errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > ========== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: More Tri-Pacer Generator Info
From: "jnmeade" <jnmeade(at)southslope.net>
Date: Dec 29, 2019
The problem is a 25A circuit breaker that seems to have become intermittent. I say that based on it having "reset" itself at least once. Removed field wire and jumpered it to ground. Removed armature wire and put a DC voltmeter in series with it to ground. At idle the voltage was about 6 VDC. At 1500 RPM the voltage was 28VDC. This seems to prove the generator is producing current. All electronics were off and we only ran this test for a couple of seconds. Reinstalled the voltage regulator and observed that the green VR light was off at low RPM and the GO red light was on because generator voltage was below battery voltage. Advancing RPM the green VR goes on and the red GO light goes off. Seems like the VR is OK. Why does ammeter show discharge when charging system tests good? Started fiddling with generator circuit breaker (probably original in 1955 airplane) and found it would engage and the ammeter showed an appropriate charge and response to RPM and load changes. For now, I'll treat it as a transient and watch it, but if it recurs the circuit breaker will need to be changed out. Thanks for the tips and encouragement. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494101#494101 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Pat Little <roughleg(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 29, 2019
Subject: Re: B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning (ADDENDUM)
Got it, thanks. On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 9:13 PM Charlie England wrote: > There may be a failure to communicate. In the case of a short, the ANL > protects the B lead *from* the battery's incredibly high source current. A > secondary benefit would be protecting the battery from rapid discharge. > > On 12/29/2019 9:35 PM, Pat Little wrote: > > Regarding the placement of ANL or other current limiter. If it is to > protect the battery=94and not the wire=94what is the reason t o locate it near > the battery end? > > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 5:23 PM user9253 wrote: > >> >> The alternator fuse protects the battery from a shorted "B" lead or >> alternator. >> The fuse should be located near the battery end of the B lead. >> A 40 amp ANL or 50 amp Maxi Fuse should work. >> >> https://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/automotive/datasheets/fuses/automotiv e-fuses/littelfuse_maxi_32v_blade_fuses.pdf >> >> -------- >> Joe Gores >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494095#494095 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> br> fts!) >> r> > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> ========== >> - >> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ========== >> FORUMS - >> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> WIKI - >> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >> ========== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributi on >> ========== >> >> >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "skywagon185guy ." <skywagon185(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 29, 2019
Subject: Re: More Tri-Pacer Generator Info
I have seen CB's, especially old ones, do some strange behavior; like stuck open after reset, permanently stuck closed. You maybe on to the problem about needing to change out the CB.... On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 8:16 PM jnmeade wrote: > > > > The problem is a 25A circuit breaker that seems to have become > intermittent. I say that based on it having "reset" itself at least once. > Removed field wire and jumpered it to ground. Removed armature wire and > put a DC voltmeter in series with it to ground. At idle the voltage was > about 6 VDC. At 1500 RPM the voltage was 28VDC. This seems to prove the > generator is producing current. All electronics were off and we only ran > this test for a couple of seconds. > Reinstalled the voltage regulator and observed that the green VR light was > off at low RPM and the GO red light was on because generator voltage was > below battery voltage. Advancing RPM the green VR goes on and the red GO > light goes off. Seems like the VR is OK. > Why does ammeter show discharge when charging system tests good? > Started fiddling with generator circuit breaker (probably original in 1955 > airplane) and found it would engage and the ammeter showed an appropriate > charge and response to RPM and load changes. > For now, I'll treat it as a transient and watch it, but if it recurs the > circuit breaker will need to be changed out. > Thanks for the tips and encouragement. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494101#494101 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning (ADDENDUM)
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 30, 2019
> If it is to protect the batteryand not the wirewhat is the reason to locate it near the battery end? You are right, the fuse protects both the wire and the battery. An alternator is not capable of generating enough current to damage a correctly-sized "B" lead. Thus a fuse does not need to be located at the alternator end of the "B" lead. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494116#494116 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2019
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Small diameter Taxi Light Needed
I don't know if one would be enough.=C2- I put a couple of them on a pie ce of scrap heatsink material I had laying around, 'cause they're that chea p, draw such little power and it doesn't bother me to have a backup. d7(at)gmail.com> wrote: Just a little heads-up before ordering; some of the linked LEDs and drive r modules are set up for household line voltage. Read the product descripti ons carefully. I love the idea for at least a taxi light. Are they bright enough to use a s an actual landing light, with such a wide light pattern? Beyond that, looking at the 110v versions is making me think about diy han gar lights. High-bay LEDs are running anywhere from $50-$200. A couple of t hose heatsinked to a 1 sq ft sheet of aluminum should come close to what I' d get 'pre-packaged' for $100. Charlie On 12/28/2019 11:23 PM, Ernest Christley wrote: I made landing a marker lights with these. 20, 30 & 50 Watt LEDs | MPJA.COM | | | | | | | | | | | 20, 30 & 50 Watt LEDs | MPJA.COM | | | =C2-Also, add a LED turn signal controller, and you have nice strobe li ghts. hotmail.com> wrote: com> Hi Group I have a Europa XS with limited real estate on the cowl or EZ mo unting of a Taxi LED. I have a Kuntzleman 3" diameter Hockey Puck and could mutilate the cowl and put a clear cover over it for a lot of work. BTW the angle coverage of Kuntzleman is 2 degrees. It's just about marginal for ta xi.=C2- My build partner has a LED Headlight for his Mountain bike that i s nothing short of amazing. It has a hot spot ~ 15 degree angle and inciden tal 25 degree coverage. It has a single large area of yellow LED that's ~ 1 .2" in diameter. I was comparing light from my Volvo station wagon with H7 Halogen right only headlight, Kuntzleman and Bike Headlight. Bike headlight is whiter, brighter, better coverage than either of the other 2. The bike mfg says it measured a precise 1,000 Lumens, but for me it seems that a lot of Mfg kinda stretch the truth. Acid test going out and trying it and comp aring works best for me. Amazing for 1.2". The problem is it has a control that is not conducive! =C2- for aircraft. Computer controls things including an innovative sen se of current at the LED. They drive it hard but control controls things gr eat. It runs off a single Lithium battery. Being very careful to try and dr ive LED with a driver, worked OK sneaking up on current to match controller . When shut off upon turn on burned out LED. Anyway my question: Does anyon e know of a small LED that is ~ 1.25" in diameter with wide angle and throw s out incredible light? Probably needs the precise current control circuit. Can pretty EZ mount 2 on cowl. Aerosun sells a small LED but it only has a 10 degree angle. Ron P. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494074#494074 http://w =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- &nbs================ http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?A=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://forp; =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- - NEW MATRONICS LIS T WIKI -http://wiki.matronics.com http://www.matronics.c ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2019
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning
(ADDENDUM) At 04:03 PM 12/28/2019, you wrote: > >Bob, > >I could use two of the RED high intensity bulbs. > >I assume you will tell me how to pay. shoot me an address >To finish off another thread, if I have a 40 amp alternator and I >want to fuse-protect the B-lead would you recommend a 50 amp (or >other) ANL fuse somewhere forward, like on the firewall? Mount a MANL40 (miniature ANL) as close to starter contactor as practical as illustrated in z-figures. https://tinyurl.com/sru9gam There are a number of offerings for MANL fuseholders. Avoid the 'auto-audio' types that attach the feedlines by mashing down on the ends with a setscrew . . . Emacs! Use a two-stud style only with your feeder terminals in direct contact with the fuse tabs. You could make your own out of delrin or phenolic . . . two bolts and an assortment of nuts and washers. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2019
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning
(ADDENDUM) At 04:03 PM 12/28/2019, you wrote: > >Bob, > >I could use two of the RED high intensity bulbs. > >I assume you will tell me how to pay. shoot me an address >To finish off another thread, if I have a 40 amp alternator and I >want to fuse-protect the B-lead would you recommend a 50 amp (or >other) ANL fuse somewhere forward, like on the firewall? Mount a MANL40 (miniature ANL) as close to starter contactor as practical as illustrated in z-figures. https://tinyurl.com/sru9gam There are a number of offerings for MANL fuseholders. Avoid the 'auto-audio' types that attach the feedlines by mashing down on the ends with a setscrew . . . Emacs! Use a two-stud style only with your feeder terminals in direct contact with the fuse tabs. You could make your own out of delrin or phenolic . . . two bolts and an assortment of nuts and washers. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Subject: SL-15 Audio Output
Date: Dec 30, 2019
Happy New Years Eve Greetings!!! I was hoping for advice on how to fix a low audio problem I am having with the audio input to the SL-15 in my airplane. Specifically, I connect my "smart" phone to the 1/8 inch audio input jack of my SL-15 and I can just barely hear my crazy [party affiliation redacted] political talk show that is playing from my telephone. The audio is indeed playing however the volume is really.really low. Even though my wife is super happy with this setup I would like to fix if for those really rare times when I allow her to play her media we can actually hear it over the continuous loud droning in the cabin (the airplane itself is very quiet). If I unplug the cable connecting my phone to the ships audio input jack and then insert my earbud headphones into the phone my political talk show volume comes in loud, obnoxious, and opinionated as I expect so I have confirmed that the phone output audio is working. I can hear the aircraft radio as expected. I have soldered up the audio jack as depicted in the wire harness diagram below and I am using a four conductor patch cable to connect the phone to the ships input jack. Could this be the problem as I am mix matching stereo and mono connectors? Here is a wire diagram of the SL-15 bottom connector. Any help (as usual) would be most appreciated!!! ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: SL-15 Audio Output
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 30, 2019
On 12/30/2019 4:56 PM, billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com wrote: > > Happy New Years Eve Greetings!!! > > I was hoping for advice on how to fix a low audio problem I am having > with the audio input to the SL-15 in my airplane. > > Specifically, I connect my smart phone to the 1/8 inch audio input > jack of my SL-15 and I can just barely hear my crazy [party > affiliation redacted] political talk show that is playing from my > telephone. The audio is indeed playing however the volume is > reallyreally low. Even though my wife is super happy with this setup > I would like to fix if for those really rare times when I allow her to > play her media we can actually hear it over the continuous loud > droning in the cabin (the airplane itself is very quiet). > > If I unplug the cable connecting my phone to the ships audio input > jack and then insert my earbud headphones into the phone my political > talk show volume comes in loud, obnoxious, and opinionated as I expect > so I have confirmed that the phone output audio is working. I can > hear the aircraft radio as expected. > > I have soldered up the audio jack as depicted in the wire harness > diagram below and I am using a four conductor patch cable to connect > the phone to the ships input jack. Could this be the problem as I am > mix matching stereo and mono connectors? > > Here is a wire diagram of the SL-15 bottom connector. > > Any help (as usual) would be most appreciated!!! > Hi Bill, I see two possibilities. One is that you wired it correctly, but the audio panel is expecting a much higher level than the phone's headphone jack is capable of providing. (This is a strong probability.) Look at the audio panel's specs to see what level it wants on the music input, and then look at the phone's specs to see the max output from the headphone jack. If you need help translating dB to volts, etc, shoot us a followup email. Another possibility is, as you mentioned, a miswired cable. You said you used a 4 wire cable. Note that there are only 3 possibilities at the audio panel. If the cable has a 4 terminal plug at the audio panel, it's entirely possible that the right channel pin in the audio panel connector could be hitting both the R ring and the ground ring. You may need something with the 4 conductor plug on one end, and a 3 conductor plug at the audio panel. Unfortunately, a quick stroll through 'the google' didn't turn one up... Charlie Image result for cell phone headphone connector diagram" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jeff B." <loboflyer(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 30, 2019
Subject: Re: SL-15 Audio Output
Bill: As a point of reference, my cell phone (Samsung Galaxy series) needs to be cranked to max output volume when hooked to my car audio line input for reasonable speaker volume. That includes clicking the "yeah, I meant it to be that loud" box. Do you have the phone volume maxed? You say 4-conductor. How is that wired from the phone? I'd try a 3-conductor patch cable. Here's a forum post elsewhere that gives some clues to wiring . Apple vs. everyone else means that the microphone and ground are reversed between systems. (apologies if images aren't appearing... link should be good). By plugging in a 3-conductor cable you should be telling the phone to ignore the microphone. [image: image.png] >From the SL-15 install manual: "The audio signal at the entertainment input must be a minimum of 500mV P-P per channel for optimum music performance." (Max is 1V P-P). [image: image.png] I think the SL-15 input impedance is 510 ohms (unsure if this applies to the entertainment inputs. Line level is typically 10's of k ohms. [image: image.png] You don't say what phone you're using, but Ken Rockwell has measured the iPhone 6S's headphone output and says it puts out 0.979V at 600 ohms (and I see no reason why it wouldn't be representative of the general phone population): 600=CE=A9: 0.979 V RMS @ 0.0012% THD. At 600 ohms, 0.979 Vrms is 2.77Vpk-pk, so a phone should have no issue (over-) driving the input. -Jeff- On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 6:44 PM Charlie England wrote: > On 12/30/2019 4:56 PM, billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com wrote: > > Happy New Years Eve Greetings!!! > > I was hoping for advice on how to fix a low audio problem I am having wit h > the audio input to the SL-15 in my airplane. > > Specifically, I connect my =9Csmart=9D phone to the 1/8 inch audio input jack > of my SL-15 and I can just barely hear my crazy [party affiliation > redacted] political talk show that is playing from my telephone. The aud io > is indeed playing however the volume is reallyreally low. Even though my > wife is super happy with this setup I would like to fix if for those real ly > rare times when I allow her to play her media we can actually hear it ove r > the continuous loud droning in the cabin (the airplane itself is very > quiet). > > If I unplug the cable connecting my phone to the ships audio input jack > and then insert my earbud headphones into the phone my political talk sho w > volume comes in loud, obnoxious, and opinionated as I expect so I have > confirmed that the phone output audio is working. I can hear the aircraf t > radio as expected. > > I have soldered up the audio jack as depicted in the wire harness diagram > below and I am using a four conductor patch cable to connect the phone to > the ships input jack. Could this be the problem as I am mix matching > stereo and mono connectors? > > Here is a wire diagram of the SL-15 bottom connector. > > Any help (as usual) would be most appreciated!!! > > Hi Bill, > > I see two possibilities. One is that you wired it correctly, but the audi o > panel is expecting a much higher level than the phone's headphone jack is > capable of providing. (This is a strong probability.) Look at the audio > panel's specs to see what level it wants on the music input, and then loo k > at the phone's specs to see the max output from the headphone jack. If yo u > need help translating dB to volts, etc, shoot us a followup email. > > Another possibility is, as you mentioned, a miswired cable. You said you > used a 4 wire cable. Note that there are only 3 possibilities at the audi o > panel. If the cable has a 4 terminal plug at the audio panel, it's entire ly > possible that the right channel pin in the audio panel connector could be > hitting both the R ring and the ground ring. You may need something with > the 4 conductor plug on one end, and a 3 conductor plug at the audio pane l. > Unfortunately, a quick stroll through 'the google' didn't turn one up... > > Charlie > [image: Image result for cell phone headphone connector diagram"] > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Pat Little <roughleg(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 30, 2019
Subject: Re: B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning (ADDENDUM)
Deems reports that B&C is recommending a 470 ohm resistor between terminals 3 and 5, but the drawing http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LR3_LV_Led_1.jpg seems to me to show a resistance of more like 940 ohms between the two terminals, ignoring the parallel resistance of the diode. Will either arrangement work? Pat On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 2:37 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > Hi Deems... ref: > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LR3_LV_Led_1.jpg > > > Deems Davis wrote: > > I would like to subsitute an LED for the Low Voltage bulb that came with > > the B&C LR3C-14 . I posed the question to Tim Hedding @ B&C and received > > this in response. > > > > If you use an LED instead of an incandescent lamp, install a 470 - 510 > Ohm, > > 1/2 Watt, resistor between terminals 3 and 5 of the LR3C-14 (or the > SB1B-14) > > so that the LED does not glow dimly all of the time. > > > Either of these techniques works . . . in fact, > Tim's suggestion is probably the most elegant. > > > Now for the rest of the story . . . > > Tim's simple resistor suggestion is valid only > if your proposed LED substitute has a resistor > already in series with it . . . many off-the-shelf > LED indicators are RATED at 12 volts and include > the necessary series resistor to properly power > the approx 3.5 volt LED. > > If you're wanting to install a rudimentary > led in the as-supplied lamp fixture from > B&C, you'll need to add TWO resistors wired > as shown in the link above. > > As a general rule, I recommend converting > your as-supplied fixture to LED using > the rudimentary lamp > > [image: Bright White LED 5mm (4 pack)] > > These are pretty easy to build into > the incandescent fixture . . . either > the as-supplied or one of your own > acquisition. > > The advantage of a DIY indicator is that > you can select a high-intensity lamp > (10K+ MCD) for sunlight viewability. > If anyone needs a high-output lamp > for their project, drop me an address > and I'll fix you up. I have RED, AMBER, > WHITE, BLUE and GREEN high-intensity > lamps on hand. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2019
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning
(ADDENDUM) At 11:18 PM 12/30/2019, you wrote: >Deems reports that B&C is recommending a 470 ohm >resistor=C2 between terminals 3 and 5, but the drawing ><http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LR3_LV_Led_1.jpg>http://aeroel ectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LR3_LV_Led_1.jpg >seems to me to show a resistance of more like >940 ohms between the two terminals, ignoring the >parallel resistance of the diode.=C2 >Will either arrangement work? I think the image above shows TWO resistors, one across the lamp, a second in series with the lamp. This configuration is used when you supply your own, rudimentary LED (a 4 volt device). If your proposed LED annunciator already features a built in series resistor (12v device) then you use ONE resistor between 3 and 5 on regulator. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2019
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning
(ADDENDUM) At 11:18 PM 12/30/2019, you wrote: >Deems reports that B&C is recommending a 470 ohm >resistor=C2 between terminals 3 and 5, but the drawing ><http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LR3_LV_Led_1.jpg>http://aeroel ectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LR3_LV_Led_1.jpg >seems to me to show a resistance of more like >940 ohms between the two terminals, ignoring the >parallel resistance of the diode.=C2 >Will either arrangement work? I think the image above shows TWO resistors, one across the lamp, a second in series with the lamp. This configuration is used when you supply your own, rudimentary LED (a 4 volt device). If your proposed LED annunciator already features a built in series resistor (12v device) then you use ONE resistor between 3 and 5 on regulator. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 31, 2019
Subject: Re: SL-15 Audio Output
Hi all, Sorry for the late reply however life seems to get in the way. I am about to leave on a 3 week trip so I will research this stuff whilst gone. One thing for sure is I will buy a 3 conductor patch cord and try it out when I get back. My cell phone is an LG Android type phone and it's the typical plug that has a microphone and stereo earbuds. It works fine in our GMC Yukon for the aux input (when at full volume... after pressing the olde yes I know that loud volume can damage my hearing button... blah... blah... blah) so I imagine it has plenty of zaps to run the zapp's to run the SL 15... yes I tried full volume on the phone. Thanks!!!! Bill Hunter On Mon, Dec 30, 2019, 20:15 Jeff B. wrote: > Bill: > > As a point of reference, my cell phone (Samsung Galaxy series) needs to b e > cranked to max output volume when hooked to my car audio line input for > reasonable speaker volume. That includes clicking the "yeah, I meant it to > be that loud" box. Do you have the phone volume maxed? > > You say 4-conductor. How is that wired from the phone? I'd try a > 3-conductor patch cable. Here's a forum post elsewhere that gives some > clues to wiring > . > Apple vs. everyone else means that the microphone and ground are reversed > between systems. > (apologies if images aren't appearing... link should be good). By > plugging in a 3-conductor cable you should be telling the phone to ignore > the microphone. > > [image: image.png] > > From the SL-15 install manual: > "The audio signal at the entertainment input must be a minimum of 500mV > P-P per channel for optimum music performance." (Max is 1V P-P). > > [image: image.png] > > > I think the SL-15 input impedance is 510 ohms (unsure if this applies to > the entertainment inputs. Line level is typically 10's of k ohms. > > [image: image.png] > > You don't say what phone you're using, but Ken Rockwell has measured the > iPhone 6S's headphone output > and > says it puts out 0.979V at 600 ohms (and I see no reason why it wouldn't be > representative of the general phone population): > > 600=CE=A9: 0.979 V RMS @ 0.0012% THD. > > At 600 ohms, 0.979 Vrms is 2.77Vpk-pk, so a phone should have no issue > (over-) driving the input. > > -Jeff- > > > On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 6:44 PM Charlie England > wrote: > >> On 12/30/2019 4:56 PM, billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com wrote: >> >> Happy New Years Eve Greetings!!! >> >> I was hoping for advice on how to fix a low audio problem I am having >> with the audio input to the SL-15 in my airplane. >> >> Specifically, I connect my =9Csmart=9D phone to the 1/8 inch audio input jack >> of my SL-15 and I can just barely hear my crazy [party affiliation >> redacted] political talk show that is playing from my telephone. The au dio >> is indeed playing however the volume is reallyreally low. Even though my >> wife is super happy with this setup I would like to fix if for those rea lly >> rare times when I allow her to play her media we can actually hear it ov er >> the continuous loud droning in the cabin (the airplane itself is very >> quiet). >> >> If I unplug the cable connecting my phone to the ships audio input jack >> and then insert my earbud headphones into the phone my political talk sh ow >> volume comes in loud, obnoxious, and opinionated as I expect so I have >> confirmed that the phone output audio is working. I can hear the aircra ft >> radio as expected. >> >> I have soldered up the audio jack as depicted in the wire harness diagra m >> below and I am using a four conductor patch cable to connect the phone t o >> the ships input jack. Could this be the problem as I am mix matching >> stereo and mono connectors? >> >> Here is a wire diagram of the SL-15 bottom connector. >> >> Any help (as usual) would be most appreciated!!! >> >> Hi Bill, >> >> I see two possibilities. One is that you wired it correctly, but the >> audio panel is expecting a much higher level than the phone's headphone >> jack is capable of providing. (This is a strong probability.) Look at th e >> audio panel's specs to see what level it wants on the music input, and t hen >> look at the phone's specs to see the max output from the headphone jack. If >> you need help translating dB to volts, etc, shoot us a followup email. >> >> Another possibility is, as you mentioned, a miswired cable. You said you >> used a 4 wire cable. Note that there are only 3 possibilities at the aud io >> panel. If the cable has a 4 terminal plug at the audio panel, it's entir ely >> possible that the right channel pin in the audio panel connector could b e >> hitting both the R ring and the ground ring. You may need something with >> the 4 conductor plug on one end, and a 3 conductor plug at the audio pan el. >> Unfortunately, a quick stroll through 'the google' didn't turn one up... >> >> Charlie >> [image: Image result for cell phone headphone connector diagram"] >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com>
Date: Dec 31, 2019
Subject: Interesting King Air Complete Electrical Failure
*A Carson Air Ltd. Beech B300 (C-GILK/CA611) from Vancouver, BC (CYVR) to Campbell River, BC (CYBL) encountered electrical failure shortly after take-off. Aircraft requested to return to CYVR before losing contact with Vancouver (VR) Departure control. Aircraft then called the Vancouver/Boundary Bay, BC (CZBB) tower via phone, declared an emergency and landed on Runway 07 safely. No impact on operations.* *Occurrence Summary* Date Entered: *2019-11-13* Narrative: *UPDATE from Airworthiness: A Civil Aviation Safety Inspector (CASI) looked into this occurrence. Aircraft C-GILK started up at approximately 1500Z, carried out pre-flight checks and positioned for take-off. Take-off occurred at approximately 1512Z, through 400 feet the landing gear was selected to up and both generators disconnected. The crew continued the departure to the southwest and reached an altitude of 4551 feet at approximately 1515Z and began a descent. The aircraft lost all power at 1516Z which put them 2.6NM NW of Boundary Bay Airport. The crew contacted Boundary Bay (CZBB) Tower on a cell phone, declared an emergency and landed safely after manually extending the landing gear. Total time in flight was 6.5 minutes. Maintenance investigated and noted the battery was still very warm, indicating a high rate of discharge. It is suspected that an internally failed battery coupled with a sudden high electrical load (landing gear retraction) caused the system voltage to drop enough to unlatch both generator buses. As this is not how the aircraft is designed to react, maintenance is working with Beechcraft (Textron) technical support for solutions. Once it is determined how the failure occurred an Service Difficulty Report (SDR) will be submitted.* *Occurrence Summary* Date Entered: *2019-12-04* Narrative: *Update TSB Report #A19P0139: C-GILK, a Beech B300 operated by Carson Air, was conducting a flight from Vancouver Int'l (CYVR), BC to Campbell River (CYBL), BC with 2 passengers and 2 flight crew on board. On take off, when the crew retracted the landing gear, both generator annunciator lights illuminated. The flight crew actioned the memory checklist items for a dual generator failure. The crew began to declare an emergency with ATC when the radios stopped working and the screens for the G1000 flight instrument system failed. All electrical annunciators, communications and instruments failed except for the emergency back-up standby attitude indicator and altimeter. The crew were able to remain in VMC and elected to proceed to Vancouver/Boundary Bay (CZBB), BC airport because the aircraft was already proceeding in that direction. The first officer called the CZBB ATC tower by cell phone and declared an emergency. The captain actioned the checklist to manually extend the landing gear and the aircraft landed in CZBB without further incident. The operator's maintenance found the aircraft's main battery (Concorde p/n RG-380E/44K, s/n 40819077) was hot and testing at 20 volts. The main battery was removed and replaced with cap tested battery (serial number 40885147).* https://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/saf-sec-sur/2/cadors-screaq/rd.aspx?cno%3d%26dtef% 3d%26dtet%3d2019-12-31%26otp%3d-1%26ftop%3d%253e%253d%26ftno%3d0%26ijop%3d% 253e%253d%26ijno%3d0%26olc%3d%26prv%3d-1%26rgn%3d-1%26tsbno%3d%26tsbi%3d-1% 26arno%3d%26ocatno%3d%26ocatop%3d1%26oevtno%3d%26oevtop%3d1%26evtacoc%3d3%2 6fltno%3d%26fltr%3d-1%26cars%3d-1%26acat%3d-1%26nar%3d%26aiddl%3d-1%26aidxt %3d%26optdl%3d-1%26optcomt%3d%26optseq%3d%26optxt%3d%26opdlxt%3dResults%2bw ill%2bappear%2bin%2bthis%2blist%26mkdl%3d-1%26mkxt%3d%26mdldl%3d-1%26mdlxt% 3d%26cmkdl%3dC%26cmkxt%3dGILK%26rt%3dQR%26hypl%3dy%26cnum%3d2019P2503 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2019
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning
(ADDENDUM) At 11:18 PM 12/30/2019, you wrote: >Deems reports that B&C is recommending a 470 ohm >resistor=C2 between terminals 3 and 5, but the drawing ><http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LR3_LV_Led_1.jpg>http://aeroel ectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LR3_LV_Led_1.jpg >seems to me to show a resistance of more like >940 ohms between the two terminals, ignoring the >parallel resistance of the diode.=C2 >Will either arrangement work? I think the image above shows TWO resistors, one across the lamp, a second in series with the lamp. This configuration is used when you supply your own, rudimentary LED (a 4 volt device). If your proposed LED annunciator already features a built in series resistor (12v device) then you use ONE resistor between 3 and 5 on regulator. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Interesting King Air Complete Electrical Failure
At 10:56 PM 12/31/2019, you wrote: >A Carson Air Ltd. Beech B300 (C-GILK/CA611) from Vancouver, BC >(CYVR) to Campbell River, BC (CYBL) encountered electrical failure >shortly after take-off. Aircraft requested to return to CYVR before >losing contact with Vancouver (VR) Departure control. Aircraft then >called the Vancouver/Boundary Bay, BC (CZBB) tower via phone, >declared an emergency and landed on Runway 07 safely. No impact on operations. It would be very interesting to read the investigator's narrative on this incident. If the battery was crapped . . . how long since last cap-check? The King Airs run nicely with no battery on line. I'm mystified as to how a battery with dead/shorted cells causes both generators to shut down. The battery ammeter on the airplane would be showing a HUGE charge current combined with low bus voltage . . . telling crew that the battery needs to be shut off. There is a great deal more to this story than what we're told. I'm betting that there is an underlying history of poor maintenance and/or crew understanding that precipitated this event. None-the-less, it will be cited as a total system failure event causing poorly informed readers to factor the story into their knowledge base . . . bad mojo . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Interesting King Air Complete Electrical Failure
At 10:56 PM 12/31/2019, you wrote: >A Carson Air Ltd. Beech B300 (C-GILK/CA611) from Vancouver, BC >(CYVR) to Campbell River, BC (CYBL) encountered electrical failure >shortly after take-off. Aircraft requested to return to CYVR before >losing contact with Vancouver (VR) Departure control. Aircraft then >called the Vancouver/Boundary Bay, BC (CZBB) tower via phone, >declared an emergency and landed on Runway 07 safely. No impact on operations. It would be very interesting to read the investigator's narrative on this incident. If the battery was crapped . . . how long since last cap-check? The King Airs run nicely with no battery on line. I'm mystified as to how a battery with dead/shorted cells causes both generators to shut down. The battery ammeter on the airplane would be showing a HUGE charge current combined with low bus voltage . . . telling crew that the battery needs to be shut off. There is a great deal more to this story than what we're told. I'm betting that there is an underlying history of poor maintenance and/or crew understanding that precipitated this event. None-the-less, it will be cited as a total system failure event causing poorly informed readers to factor the story into their knowledge base . . . bad mojo . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Interesting King Air Complete Electrical Failure
At 10:56 PM 12/31/2019, you wrote: >A Carson Air Ltd. Beech B300 (C-GILK/CA611) from Vancouver, BC >(CYVR) to Campbell River, BC (CYBL) encountered electrical failure >shortly after take-off. Aircraft requested to return to CYVR before >losing contact with Vancouver (VR) Departure control. Aircraft then >called the Vancouver/Boundary Bay, BC (CZBB) tower via phone, >declared an emergency and landed on Runway 07 safely. No impact on operations. It would be very interesting to read the investigator's narrative on this incident. If the battery was crapped . . . how long since last cap-check? The King Airs run nicely with no battery on line. I'm mystified as to how a battery with dead/shorted cells causes both generators to shut down. The battery ammeter on the airplane would be showing a HUGE charge current combined with low bus voltage . . . telling crew that the battery needs to be shut off. The narrative says the removed battery was low in output . . . but did anyone attempt to charge and cap-check the battery? Skip Koss frequently lamented the numbers of batteries returned to Concorde where inspection showed the battery to be serviceable after receiving proper attention. There is a great deal more to this story than what we're told. I'm betting that there is an underlying history of poor maintenance and/or crew understanding that precipitated this event. None-the-less, it will be cited as a total system failure event causing poorly informed readers to factor the story into their knowledge base . . . bad mojo . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "skywagon185guy ." <skywagon185(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 01, 2020
Subject: Re: EFI current requirements
Mark, Just a suggestion about your battery comments.... I would think that using the smaller battery to "boost charge" the larger battery might be better than trying to start an engine directly off the smaller. The larger boosted battery has the internal hardware and cabling to handle huge loads like starting sequences. The smaller battery could bring the larger back to life enough to get a good engine start..... On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 10:42 AM markfw wrote: > markwheelermd(at)icloud.com> > > John, > > Thanks for the link to the thread of Ross's evaluation of the Shorei > battery. This is a good example of non-truth in advertising. > > However, according to Ross the Shorei weighs 2.2 pounds and is good for > approximately 6 ah. The EarthX ETX 900 battery is rated by them at 15.6 ah > and weighs 4.9 pounds. > > Since these Lithium battery manufacturers apparently all use the same (or > similar) Chinese Lithium cells I would say that EarthX is rating their > batteries properly for continuous use rather than just starting. > > I will be using an EarthX 24 ah single battery in my day-VFR Carbon Cub. I > will also have the EarthX 2 ah portable "starter" battery if I forget to > turn off my master switch. It will be interesting to see if it will > actually start my engine. It's counterintuitive that such a small battery > could start an O-340, but it can supposedly do it. > > I am a Vans Air Force subscriber. I lurk there and learn a ton from the > thousands of RV pilots and builders. > > Thanks. > > Mark > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494093#494093 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: EFI current requirements
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 01, 2020
While connecting them in parallel might increase available current to start, it won't charge the other battery, unless it's badly depleted. I missed the earlier posts in this thread; 'the google' sometimes decides Aeroelectric emails are spam (likely due to 'unusual' subject lines). The issue of AH ratings has been around as long as lithium battery tech. Since the typical duty of a battery in a motor vehicle is purely starting, the lithium guys have almost always used AH 'equivalent' ratings when it comes to the battery's ability to *start* an engine. It's the difference between *power* (ex: 400 HP Corvette) and *energy* (50 gallon gas tank). A Corvette with a gallon of gas in its tank will get to the end of a quarter mile first, and then it won't go any farther. A Chevette with a 10 gallon tank will win the 200 mile race every time over the Corvette with a 1 gallon tank. Nothing really 'wrong' with the equivalent thing, as long as everyone is on the same page and is using the battery purely as a starting battery. But even in a car, the difference in capacity might mean the difference between getting home after an alt failure, or being stranded on the side of the road. IIRC, EarthX did the same 'equivalent' ratings thing early in their venture into the a/c market, until a bunch of us pointed out to them that if the plane is electrically dependent, those numbers don't work. Those of you planning on using EX batteries do need to be aware that the internal battery management system really is another failure point, and has failed in at least one case. If it decides that there are external problems, or the battery is near end-of-charge (whether its assumption is correct or not), it will disconnect the battery. Under the right conditions, with some, older design alternators, the load dump could cause an alternator failure. Not likely a risk with B&C alts, but many older internally regulated alternators will die in a load dump situation. In an 'alternator out' situation, the EX *will* disconnect at some point, before the battery is fully depleted. Your call on use, but do know the failure modes if you use them. Charlie On 1/1/2020 3:29 PM, skywagon185guy . wrote: > Mark, > Just a suggestion about your battery comments.... > I would think that using the smaller battery to "boost charge" the > larger battery might be better than trying to start an engine directly > off the smaller. > The larger boosted battery has the internal hardware and cabling to > handle huge loads like starting sequences. The smaller battery could > bring the larger back to life enough to get a good engine start..... > > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 10:42 AM markfw > wrote: > > > > > John, > > Thanks for the link to the thread of Ross's evaluation of the > Shorei battery. This is a good example of non-truth in advertising. > > However, according to Ross the Shorei weighs 2.2 pounds and is > good for approximately 6 ah. The EarthX ETX 900 battery is rated > by them at 15.6 ah and weighs 4.9 pounds. > > Since these Lithium battery manufacturers apparently all use the > same (or similar) Chinese Lithium cells I would say that EarthX is > rating their batteries properly for continuous use rather than > just starting. > > I will be using an EarthX 24 ah single battery in my day-VFR > Carbon Cub. I will also have the EarthX 2 ah portable "starter" > battery if I forget to turn off my master switch. It will be > interesting to see if it will actually start my engine. It's > counterintuitive that such a small battery could start an O-340, > but it can supposedly do it. > > I am a Vans Air Force subscriber. I lurk there and learn a ton > from the thousands of RV pilots and builders. > > Thanks. > > Mark > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 01, 2020
Subject: Re: Interesting King Air Complete Electrical Failure
Keep in mind the way these reports are generated. The incident is recorded by atc and someone at Transport Canada decides to get follow up. They call the director of maintenance and get a verbal report. They are expecting an SDR so there is no investigation and no fact checking. There is no way to tell fact from fiction. Thinking about it, perhaps the crew never got the generators online or selected them off right before takeoff when attempting to action a different switch such as the igniters or anti ice vanes. Then when the gear is selected up the hydraulic pump drains the battery. Unlikely but not so unlikely as a faulty battery taking the gens offline. On Wed, Jan 1, 2020, 16:57 Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 10:56 PM 12/31/2019, you wrote: > > *A Carson Air Ltd. Beech B300 (C-GILK/CA611) from Vancouver, BC (CYVR) to > Campbell River, BC (CYBL) encountered electrical failure shortly after > take-off. Aircraft requested to return to CYVR before losing contact with > Vancouver (VR) Departure control. Aircraft then called the > Vancouver/Boundary Bay, BC (CZBB) tower via phone, declared an emergency > and landed on Runway 07 safely. No impact on operations.* > > > It would be very interesting to read the > investigator's narrative on this incident. > If the battery was crapped . . . how long > since last cap-check? The King Airs run > nicely with no battery on line. I'm mystified > as to how a battery with dead/shorted cells > causes both generators to shut down. The > battery ammeter on the airplane would be > showing a HUGE charge current combined with > low bus voltage . . . telling crew that > the battery needs to be shut off. > > The narrative says the removed battery was > low in output . . . but did anyone attempt > to charge and cap-check the battery? Skip > Koss frequently lamented the numbers of > batteries returned to Concorde where > inspection showed the battery to be > serviceable after receiving proper > attention. > > There is a great deal more to this story > than what we're told. I'm betting that > there is an underlying history of poor > maintenance and/or crew understanding > that precipitated this event. None-the-less, > it will be cited as a total system failure > event causing poorly informed readers > to factor the story into their knowledge > base . . . bad mojo . . . > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 01, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Interesting King Air Complete Electrical Failure
At 04:56 PM 1/1/2020, you wrote: >Keep in mind the way these reports are generated. The incident is >recorded by atc and someone at Transport Canada decides to get >follow up. They call the director of maintenance and get a verbal >report. They are expecting an SDR so there is no investigation and >no fact checking. There is no way to tell fact from fiction. > >Thinking about it, perhaps the crew never got the generators online >or selected them off right before takeoff when attempting to action >a different switch such as the igniters or anti ice vanes. Then when >the gear is selected up the hydraulic pump drains the battery. >Unlikely but not so unlikely as a faulty battery taking the gens offline. . . . too bad. There are many anomalous events that go unexplored yet reported in "never again" articles . . . or not at all. If the crew did mis-position switches and ran their battery down, it stands to reason that they would be reluctant to advertise the error . . . assuming also that they even know what brought it about. So much useful information lost in the noise. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Interesting King Air Complete Electrical Failure
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 01, 2020
On 1/1/2020 5:15 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 04:56 PM 1/1/2020, you wrote: >> Keep in mind the way these reports are generated. The incident is >> recorded by atc and someone at Transport Canada decides to get follow >> up. They call the director of maintenance and get a verbal report. >> They are expecting an SDR so there is no investigation and no fact >> checking. There is no way to tell fact from fiction. >> >> Thinking about it, perhaps the crew never got the generators online >> or selected them off right before takeoff when attempting to action a >> different switch such as the igniters or anti ice vanes. Then when >> the gear is selected up the hydraulic pump drains the battery. >> Unlikely but not so unlikely as a faulty battery taking the gens offline. > > . . . too bad. There are many anomalous events > that go unexplored yet reported in "never again" > articles . . . or not at all. > > If the crew did mis-position switches and > ran their battery down, it stands to reason > that they would be reluctant to advertise > the error . . . assuming also that they > even know what brought it about. > > So much useful information lost in the noise. > > > Bob . . . > 6.5 minutes for total flight duration; generator loss to total battery failure and *then* fly to the next airport?? Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 02, 2020
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Interesting King Air Complete Electrical Failure
ote: If the crew did mis-position switches and=C2-ran their battery down, it s tands to reason=C2-that they would be reluctant to advertise the error . . . assuming also that they=C2-even know what brought it about. So much useful information lost in the noise. ----- Bob brings up an interesting point.=C2- In this country, self-disclosure is encouraged, and, I would hope, common, thanks to NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System and our airline industry's Aviation Safety Action Programs .=C2- Does anyone know if the Canadian aviation system has anything simil ar? Eric ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 01, 2020
Subject: Re: Interesting King Air Complete Electrical Failure
I don't know what the weather was like. They had a familiar airport at their 12 o'clock and decided to land there. They would have been closer to their departure airport but maybe the weather precluded a quick VFR return. On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 4:04 PM Charlie England wrote: > On 1/1/2020 5:15 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 04:56 PM 1/1/2020, you wrote: > > Keep in mind the way these reports are generated. The incident is recorded > by atc and someone at Transport Canada decides to get follow up. They call > the director of maintenance and get a verbal report. They are expecting an > SDR so there is no investigation and no fact checking. There is no way to > tell fact from fiction. > > Thinking about it, perhaps the crew never got the generators online or > selected them off right before takeoff when attempting to action a > different switch such as the igniters or anti ice vanes. Then when the gear > is selected up the hydraulic pump drains the battery. Unlikely but not so > unlikely as a faulty battery taking the gens offline. > > > . . . too bad. There are many anomalous events > that go unexplored yet reported in "never again" > articles . . . or not at all. > > If the crew did mis-position switches and > ran their battery down, it stands to reason > that they would be reluctant to advertise > the error . . . assuming also that they > even know what brought it about. > > So much useful information lost in the noise. > > > Bob . . . > > 6.5 minutes for total flight duration; generator loss to total battery > failure and *then* fly to the next airport?? > > Charlie > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List - SL-15 audio - 12/31/19
Date: Jan 02, 2020
I'm familiar with this issue: My Apollo radio stack included an SL-10 MS (similar to SL-15 but with marker beacon and stereo). I bought it 2001 and the plane first flew in 2008. I wired it so I could plug in mp3 players and iPods using mini jack patch chords. To my dismay, I had to crank the SL-10 all the way up (mp3 player at max volume) to hear anything (very distorted). Since these units are made by PS engineering, I contacted them and they said the design was completed before mp3 players became popular. Mp3 players put out a very weak signal hence this problem. PS engineering had updated their units by then and recommended I fix the problem by buying a new model at $1300. I had just finished the airplane and didn't want to do that. PS engineering then suggested I purchase a small self-contained mp3 amplifier and place it in line between the mp3 player and the SL-10. Not sure if they're still on the market but the brand of that amplifier is "Boostaroo" and it was originally designed to amplify the signal of mp3 players enough to drive two sets of earbuds. It has one input, two outputs and provides a fixed amount of gain (no controls of any kind, when you plug in the mp3 player patch chord it turns the unit on). It's about the size of your thumb, weighs a couple ounces and runs on AAAA (yup that's quad A) batteries (available at many stores selling batteries). Worked great and I used it for 9 years until I saw the new plug and play PS Engineering PMA 7000BT at Sun N Fun. I bought one and since it's plug and play, just swapped out my SL-10 with NO wiring changes required. It has all the features of the SL-10 plus automatic squelch, blue tooth and a more powerful amplifier for mp3 signals. Love the unit and don't need to use patch chords anymore, just Bluetooth my smart phone/iPad and get loud and clear audio through my Bose headsets (stereo). If you want blue tooth and this new capability, I would contact PS engineering and see if the 7000BT is also a plug and play replacement for the SL-15 (I believe it is). If you are on a budget then I suggest the Boostaroo, it worked very well for me with the SL-10 and cost about $30 as I recall. I'm sure there are other mp3 amplifiers available that would work as well if you can't find a Boostaroo. The Boostaroo is just so compact and lite weight that it's perfect for our application, takes up zero room in the airplane and no controls to mess with. Regards Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM 320+ hours of pure fun -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com On Behalf Of AeroElectric-List Digest Server Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2020 2:31 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 12/31/19 ---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 12/31/19: 4 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 3. 05:11 PM - Re: SL-15 Audio Output (William Hunter) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ From: William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SL-15 Audio Output Hi all, Sorry for the late reply however life seems to get in the way. I am about to leave on a 3 week trip so I will research this stuff whilst gone. One thing for sure is I will buy a 3 conductor patch cord and try it out when I get back. My cell phone is an LG Android type phone and it's the typical plug that has a microphone and stereo earbuds. It works fine in our GMC Yukon for the aux input (when at full volume... after pressing the olde yes I know that loud volume can damage my hearing button... blah... blah... blah) so I imagine it has plenty of zaps to run the zapp's to run the SL 15... yes I tried full volume on the phone. Thanks!!!! Bill Hunter On Mon, Dec 30, 2019, 20:15 Jeff B. wrote: > Bill: > > As a point of reference, my cell phone (Samsung Galaxy series) needs > to b e > cranked to max output volume when hooked to my car audio line input > for reasonable speaker volume. That includes clicking the "yeah, I > meant it to > be that loud" box. Do you have the phone volume maxed? > > You say 4-conductor. How is that wired from the phone? I'd try a > 3-conductor patch cable. Here's a forum post elsewhere that gives > some clues to wiring > /#p ost-9955513>. > Apple vs. everyone else means that the microphone and ground are > reversed between systems. > (apologies if images aren't appearing... link should be good). By > plugging in a 3-conductor cable you should be telling the phone to > ignore the microphone. > > [image: image.png] > > From the SL-15 install manual: > "The audio signal at the entertainment input must be a minimum of > 500mV P-P per channel for optimum music performance." (Max is 1V P-P). > > [image: image.png] > > > I think the SL-15 input impedance is 510 ohms (unsure if this applies > to the entertainment inputs. Line level is typically 10's of k ohms. > > [image: image.png] > > You don't say what phone you're using, but Ken Rockwell has measured > the iPhone 6S's headphone output > an > d says it puts out 0.979V at 600 ohms (and I see no reason why it > wouldn't be > representative of the general phone population): > > 600=CE=A9: 0.979 V RMS @ 0.0012% THD. > > At 600 ohms, 0.979 Vrms is 2.77Vpk-pk, so a phone should have no issue > (over-) driving the input. > > -Jeff- > > > On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 6:44 PM Charlie England > wrote: > >> On 12/30/2019 4:56 PM, billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com wrote: >> >> Happy New Years Eve Greetings!!! >> >> I was hoping for advice on how to fix a low audio problem I am having >> with the audio input to the SL-15 in my airplane. >> >> Specifically, I connect my =9Csmart=9D phone to the 1/8 inch audio input jack >> of my SL-15 and I can just barely hear my crazy [party affiliation >> redacted] political talk show that is playing from my telephone. The >> au dio >> is indeed playing however the volume is reallyreally low. Even though my >> wife is super happy with this setup I would like to fix if for those >> rea lly >> rare times when I allow her to play her media we can actually hear it >> ov er >> the continuous loud droning in the cabin (the airplane itself is very >> quiet). >> >> If I unplug the cable connecting my phone to the ships audio input >> jack and then insert my earbud headphones into the phone my political >> talk sh ow >> volume comes in loud, obnoxious, and opinionated as I expect so I >> have confirmed that the phone output audio is working. I can hear >> the aircra ft >> radio as expected. >> >> I have soldered up the audio jack as depicted in the wire harness >> diagra m >> below and I am using a four conductor patch cable to connect the >> phone t o >> the ships input jack. Could this be the problem as I am mix matching >> stereo and mono connectors? >> >> Here is a wire diagram of the SL-15 bottom connector. >> >> Any help (as usual) would be most appreciated!!! >> >> Hi Bill, >> >> I see two possibilities. One is that you wired it correctly, but the >> audio panel is expecting a much higher level than the phone's >> headphone jack is capable of providing. (This is a strong >> probability.) Look at th e >> audio panel's specs to see what level it wants on the music input, >> and t hen >> look at the phone's specs to see the max output from the headphone jack. If >> you need help translating dB to volts, etc, shoot us a followup email. >> >> Another possibility is, as you mentioned, a miswired cable. You said >> you used a 4 wire cable. Note that there are only 3 possibilities at >> the aud io >> panel. If the cable has a 4 terminal plug at the audio panel, it's >> entir ely >> possible that the right channel pin in the audio panel connector >> could b e >> hitting both the R ring and the ground ring. You may need something >> with the 4 conductor plug on one end, and a 3 conductor plug at the >> audio pan el. >> Unfortunately, a quick stroll through 'the google' didn't turn one up... >> >> Charlie >> [image: Image result for cell phone headphone connector diagram"] >> > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: B&C voltage regulator low voltage warning (ADDENDUM)
From: "markfw" <markwheelermd(at)icloud.com>
Date: Jan 02, 2020
Bob, thanks for the info about the MANL fuse. My address is: 1009 Western Ave #1207 Seattle, WA 98104 Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494152#494152 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: EFI current requirements
From: "markfw" <markwheelermd(at)icloud.com>
Date: Jan 02, 2020
skywagon185(at)gmail.com wrote: > Mark, > Just a suggestion about your battery comments.... > I would think that using the smaller battery to "boost charge" the larger battery might be better than trying to start an engine directly off the smaller. > The larger boosted battery has the internal hardware and cabling to handle huge loads like starting sequences. The smaller battery could bring the larger back to life enough to get a good engine start..... > > EARTHX SELLS A CONNECTOR TO THE BATTERY TERMINALS WHICH IS USED BY THEIR RECOMMENDED CHARGING UNITS AND BY THEIR "JUMP START" BATTERY. IT IS RATED AT 400 AMPS. I ASSUME THAT THE BMS FIGURES OUT HOW TO ROUTE THE JUMP START CURRENT TO THE STARER. > > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 10:42 AM markfw wrote: > > > > > > John, > > > > Thanks for the link to the thread of Ross's evaluation of the Shorei battery. This is a good example of non-truth in advertising. > > > > However, according to Ross the Shorei weighs 2.2 pounds and is good for approximately 6 ah. The EarthX ETX 900 battery is rated by them at 15.6 ah and weighs 4.9 pounds. > > > > Since these Lithium battery manufacturers apparently all use the same (or similar) Chinese Lithium cells I would say that EarthX is rating their batteries properly for continuous use rather than just starting. > > > > I will be using an EarthX 24 ah single battery in my day-VFR Carbon Cub. I will also have the EarthX 2 ah portable "starter" battery if I forget to turn off my master switch. It will be interesting to see if it will actually start my engine. It's counterintuitive that such a small battery could start an O-340, but it can supposedly do it. > > > > I am a Vans Air Force subscriber. I lurk there and learn a ton from the thousands of RV pilots and builders. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494093#494093 (http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494093#494093) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > > br> fts!) > > r> > target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > ========== > > - > > Electric-List" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > ========== > > FORUMS - > > _blank" rel="noreferrer">http://forums.matronics.com > > ========== > > WIKI - > > lank" rel="noreferrer">http://wiki.matronics.com > > ========== > > b Site - > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ========== > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494153#494153 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: EFI current requirements
From: "markfw" <markwheelermd(at)icloud.com>
Date: Jan 02, 2020
ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote: > While connecting them in parallel might increase available current to start, it won't charge the other battery, unless it's badly depleted. > > I missed the earlier posts in this thread; 'the google' sometimes decides Aeroelectric emails are spam (likely due to 'unusual' subject lines). > > The issue of AH ratings has been around as long as lithium battery tech. Since the typical duty of a battery in a motor vehicle is purely starting, the lithium guys have almost always used AH 'equivalent' ratings when it comes to the battery's ability to *start* an engine. It's the difference between *power* (ex: 400 HP Corvette) and *energy* (50 gallon gas tank). A Corvette with a gallon of gas in its tank will get to the end of a quarter mile first, and then it won't go any farther. A Chevette with a 10 gallon tank will win the 200 mile race every time over the Corvette with a 1 gallon tank. > > Nothing really 'wrong' with the equivalent thing, as long as everyone is on the same page and is using the battery purely as a starting battery. But even in a car, the difference in capacity might mean the difference between getting home after an alt failure, or being stranded on the side of the road. > > IIRC, EarthX did the same 'equivalent' ratings thing early in their venture into the a/c market, until a bunch of us pointed out to them that if the plane is electrically dependent, those numbers don't work. > > Those of you planning on using EX batteries do need to be aware that the internal battery management system really is another failure point, and has failed in at least one case. If it decides that there are external problems, or the battery is near end-of-charge (whether its assumption is correct or not), it will disconnect the battery. Under the right conditions, with some, older design alternators, the load dump could cause an alternator failure. Not likely a risk with B&C alts, but many older internally regulated alternators will die in a load dump situation. > > In an 'alternator out' situation, the EX *will* disconnect at some point, before the battery is fully depleted. Your call on use, but do know the failure modes if you use them. > > Charlie > > CHARLIE, YES THE EARTHX BMS SHUTS DOWN THE BATTERY GRACEFULLY AT 11.5V. THEY SAY THAT THIS IS WHEN ONLY 5% OF THE BATTERY ENERGY IS LEFT. I THINK THE INTENT IS TO AVOID A LOAD DUMP ONTO THE ALTERNATOR. I AM USING A B & C ALTERNATOR. > > On 1/1/2020 3:29 PM, skywagon185guy . wrote: > > > > Mark, > > Just a suggestion about your battery comments.... > > I would think that using the smaller battery to "boost charge" the larger battery might be better than trying to start an engine directly off the smaller. > > The larger boosted battery has the internal hardware and cabling to handle huge loads like starting sequences. The smaller battery could bring the larger back to life enough to get a good engine start..... > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 10:42 AM markfw wrote: > > > > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "markfw" > > > > > > John, > > > > > > Thanks for the link to the thread of Ross's evaluation of the Shorei battery. This is a good example of non-truth in advertising. > > > > > > However, according to Ross the Shorei weighs 2.2 pounds and is good for approximately 6 ah. The EarthX ETX 900 battery is rated by them at 15.6 ah and weighs 4.9 pounds. > > > > > > Since these Lithium battery manufacturers apparently all use the same (or similar) Chinese Lithium cells I would say that EarthX is rating their batteries properly for continuous use rather than just starting. > > > > > > I will be using an EarthX 24 ah single battery in my day-VFR Carbon Cub. I will also have the EarthX 2 ah portable "starter" battery if I forget to turn off my master switch. It will be interesting to see if it will actually start my engine. It's counterintuitive that such a small battery could start an O-340, but it can supposedly do it. > > > > > > I am a Vans Air Force subscriber. I lurk there and learn a ton from the thousands of RV pilots and builders. > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494154#494154 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 03, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: EFI current requirements
>The issue of AH ratings has been around as long >as lithium battery tech. Since the typical duty >of a battery in a motor vehicle is purely >starting, the lithium guys have almost always >used AH 'equivalent' ratings when it comes to >the battery's ability to *start* an engine. I don't think there was any misunderstanding about the ratings. The 'equivalency' thing was about cranking current . . . period. In the early days, they deliberately omitted comparisons of battery capacity . . . which made their marketing numbers for weight and size versus performance look better. My earliest conversations with EarthX confirmed this. >Those of you planning on using EX batteries do >need to be aware that the internal battery >management system really is another failure >point, and has failed in at least one case. If >it decides that there are external problems, or >the battery is near end-of-charge (whether its >assumption is correct or not), it will >disconnect the battery. Under the right >conditions, with some, older design alternators, >the load dump could cause an alternator failure. >Not likely a risk with B&C alts, but many older >internally regulated alternators will die in a load dump situation. "Load dump" is nearly an non-existent phenomenon and it would not happen due to the actions of the BMS. Recall that the BMS breaks the output as the battery is being discharged . . . if you have a working alternator on line, then the battery will be charging and the BMS will be happy. It would never disconnect while a functioning alternator was doing its job. >In an 'alternator out' situation, the EX *will* >disconnect at some point, before the battery is >fully depleted. Your call on use, but do know >the failure modes if you use them. --------------------- >>Just a suggestion about your battery comments.... >>I would think that using the smaller battery to >>"boost charge" the larger battery might be >>better than trying to start an engine directly off the smaller. BATTERIES CANNOT CHARGE BATTERIES. >>The larger boosted battery has the internal >>hardware and cabling to handle huge loads like >>starting sequences.=C2 The smaller battery could >>bring the larger back to life enough to get a good engine start..... SORRY, DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY. If the smaller battery stores enough watt-seconds of snort to crank the engine, then use it to do just that. But 'charging' a dead battery from a 'full' battery doesn't work. >>On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 10:42 AM markfw >><markwheelermd(at)icloud.com> wrote: >>"markfw" <markwheelermd(at)icloud.com> >> >>John, >> >>Thanks for the link to the thread of Ross's >>evaluation of the Shorei battery. This is a >>good example of non-truth in advertising. >> >>However, according to Ross the Shorei weighs >>2.2 pounds and is good for approximately 6 ah. >>The EarthX ETX 900 battery is rated by them at 15.6 ah and weighs 4.9 pounds. >> >>Since these Lithium battery manufacturers >>apparently all use the same (or similar) >>Chinese Lithium cells I would say that EarthX >>is rating their batteries properly for >>continuous use rather than just starting. I got on EarthX a few years back about the 'equivalent' rating and they started adding contained energy (CAPACITY) values to their advertising literature. >>I will be using an EarthX 24 ah single battery >>in my day-VFR Carbon Cub. I will also have the >>EarthX 2 ah portable "starter" battery if I >>forget to turn off my master switch. You don't have active and insistent LOW VOLTS warning? >> It will be interesting to see if it will >> actually start my engine. It's >> counterintuitive that such a small battery >> could start an O-340, but it can supposedly do it. If you're carrying an 'extra' battery around as a hedge against failure to use a checklist, perhaps it would be more elegant to upsize the main battery, ditch the 'ohmygosh' battery and include some means for making sure the master doesn't get left on. A little buzzer on a low oil pressure switch works good . . . little irritating flashing lights work too . . . But adding more batteries for any reason only increases your battery maintenance time and costs by the same factor. The elegant solution has ONE battery and a failure mode analysis that confirms exceedingly low risk. If you've got an unused vacuum pump pad, TWO alternators and one battery (perhaps smaller than a 900) is about as reliable as you can get. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: EFI current requirements
From: "markfw" <markwheelermd(at)icloud.com>
Date: Jan 03, 2020
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > > > The issue of AH ratings has been around as long as lithium battery tech. Since the typical duty of a battery in a motor vehicle is purely starting, the lithium guys have almost always used AH 'equivalent' ratings when it comes to the battery's ability to *start* an engine. > > I don't think there was any misunderstanding about > the ratings. The 'equivalency' thing was about cranking > current . . . period. In the early days, they deliberately > omitted comparisons of battery capacity . . . which made > their marketing numbers for weight and size versus > performance look better. My earliest conversations with > EarthX confirmed this. > > > > Those of you planning on using EX batteries do need to be aware that the internal battery management system really is another failure point, and has failed in at least one case. If it decides that there are external problems, or the battery is near end-of-charge (whether its assumption is correct or not), it will disconnect the battery. Under the right conditions, with some, older design alternators, the load dump could cause an alternator failure. Not likely a risk with B&C alts, but many older internally regulated alternators will die in a load dump situation. > > "Load dump" is nearly an non-existent phenomenon > and it would not happen due to the actions of > the BMS. Recall that the BMS breaks the output > as the battery is being discharged . . . if you > have a working alternator on line, then the battery > will be charging and the BMS will be happy. It would > never disconnect while a functioning alternator > was doing its job. > > > > > In an 'alternator out' situation, the EX *will* disconnect at some point, before the battery is fully depleted. Your call on use, but do know the failure modes if you use them. > > > > --------------------- > > > > > > > Just a suggestion about your battery comments.... > > > I would think that using the smaller battery to "boost charge" the larger battery might be better than trying to start an engine directly off the smaller. > > > > > > > BATTERIES CANNOT CHARGE BATTERIES. > > > > > > > The larger boosted battery has the internal hardware and cabling to handle huge loads like starting sequences. The smaller battery could bring the larger back to life enough to get a good engine start..... > > > > SORRY, DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY. If the smaller > battery stores enough watt-seconds of snort > to crank the engine, then use it to do just > that. But 'charging' a dead battery from > a 'full' battery doesn't work. > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 10:42 AM markfw wrote: > > > > > > John, > > > > > > Thanks for the link to the thread of Ross's evaluation of the Shorei battery. This is a good example of non-truth in advertising. > > > > > > However, according to Ross the Shorei weighs 2.2 pounds and is good for approximately 6 ah. The EarthX ETX 900 battery is rated by them at 15.6 ah and weighs 4.9 pounds. > > > > > > Since these Lithium battery manufacturers apparently all use the same (or similar) Chinese Lithium cells I would say that EarthX is rating their batteries properly for continuous use rather than just starting. > > > > I got on EarthX a few years back about the 'equivalent' > rating and they started adding contained energy (CAPACITY) > values to their advertising literature. > > > > > > > I will be using an EarthX 24 ah single battery in my day-VFR Carbon Cub. I will also have the EarthX 2 ah portable "starter" battery if I forget to turn off my master switch. > > > > You don't have active and insistent LOW VOLTS > warning? > > > > > > > It will be interesting to see if it will actually start my engine. It's counterintuitive that such a small battery could start an O-340, but it can supposedly do it. > > > > > > > If you're carrying an 'extra' battery around as > a hedge against failure to use a checklist, perhaps > it would be more elegant to upsize the main battery, > ditch the 'ohmygosh' battery and include some means > for making sure the master doesn't get left on. > > A little buzzer on a low oil pressure switch works > good . . . little irritating flashing lights work > too . . . > > But adding more batteries for any reason only increases > your battery maintenance time and costs by the same > factor. The elegant solution has ONE battery and > a failure mode analysis that confirms exceedingly > low risk. If you've got an unused vacuum pump pad, > TWO alternators and one battery (perhaps smaller than > a 900) is about as reliable as you can get. > > > Bob . . . Bob, I DO have both audio and visual (thanks to you) warnings of low voltage. But for the "forgot the master switch" problem I think you are right. It would be simpler (and save weight) to have an audio warning, like in a car. Since my EFIS will still be on after I turn off the engine I will investigate having it make some kind of cabin-audible noise based on low oil pressure, since I would have my headset off when I was leaving the airplane. Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494159#494159 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 03, 2020
Subject: Re: EFI current requirements
On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 4:15 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > The issue of AH ratings has been around as long as lithium battery tech. > Since the typical duty of a battery in a motor vehicle is purely starting, > the lithium guys have almost always used AH 'equivalent' ratings when it > comes to the battery's ability to *start* an engine. > > > I don't think there was any misunderstanding about > the ratings. The 'equivalency' thing was about cranking > current . . . period. In the early days, they deliberately > omitted comparisons of battery capacity . . . which made > their marketing numbers for weight and size versus > performance look better. My earliest conversations with > EarthX confirmed this. > > Those of you planning on using EX batteries do need to be aware that the > internal battery management system really is another failure point, and has > failed in at least one case. If it decides that there are external > problems, or the battery is near end-of-charge (whether its assumption is > correct or not), it will disconnect the battery. Under the right > conditions, with some, older design alternators, the load dump could cause > an alternator failure. Not likely a risk with B&C alts, but many older > internally regulated alternators will die in a load dump situation. > > > "Load dump" is nearly an non-existent phenomenon > and it would not happen due to the actions of > the BMS. Recall that the BMS breaks the output > as the battery is being discharged . . . if you > have a working alternator on line, then the battery > will be charging and the BMS will be happy. It would > never disconnect while a functioning alternator > was doing its job. > > > In an 'alternator out' situation, the EX *will* disconnect at some point, > before the battery is fully depleted. Your call on use, but do know the > failure modes if you use them. > > [large snip] > > Bob . . . > There may be no misunderstanding among the engineers at the lithium battery companies, but respectfully, there has *always* been a misunderstanding among a great many *aviators* about actual capacity of commercially offered lithium tech vs SLA and/or wet cell lead acid. You seem to reinforce my point with, "In the early days, they deliberately omitted comparisons of battery capacity . . . which made their marketing numbers for weight and size versus performance look better. My earliest conversations with EarthX confirmed this." The recently referenced thread on the Vans Air Force forum proves that it's still the case. The original poster of that thread has been building electronic ignition and electronic injection systems for aircraft for at least a couple of decades, and he stumbled upon the knowledge while doing periodic load testing (that he obviously didn't do before putting the lithium tech battery of choice into service). This was not an EarthX aviation battery; it was one of the offerings from a motorsports company. To their credit, EarthX seems to have modified their aviation offerings and increased the cell size (count?) so that total energy does compare with the various SLAs they are marketing against. It did take some rather pointed, public comments on aviation forums for that to happen. On the 'load dump' issue: The BMS in the EarthX (according to EX's own literature, and their rep who posts frequently on VAF) will disconnect the battery under what it considers an overvoltage charge condition, and IIRC, also when it thinks the battery is in danger of being excessively depleted, or too high a current demand is being placed on it. The very fact that the BMS *can* disconnect the battery (for whatever reason), should, it seems to me, require us to include that fact in failure mode analysis. If the BMS itself fails in a fashion that disconnects the battery, that's a new and different failure mode (which may come as a complete shock if one hasn't done his homework). If the BMS gets confused and thinks the alternator is in an OV condition, it may disconnect from the electrical system> load dump>potential alternator failure>dark airplane. People like me that have some electronics skill can set up an IR alt with OV protection for less than 1/2 the cost of just a B&C regulator. A lot of us are still running internally regulated alternators, many of which likely still have 'prehistoric' regulators that are not immune to load dump issues because they are sourced from cars built back in the 1970s/1980s. While load dumps might not be an every day occurrence, they do happen. Many years ago, I killed an alternator with an ill-advised switch flip, so I know it can happen. An EarthX battery mixed with one of those old school IR alternators does up the odds of a dark airplane, if failure modes aren't accounted for. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 04, 2020
From: Bobby Paulk <bobbypaulk(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Master switch alarm
As a forgetful ole geezer I leave the high intensity strobes on when out to a fly-in or the $100 hamburger and turn them off with the Master switch. You won't walk away from your plane without seeing them. You can turn them off before the next start. Back at home port I turn them off with the panel switch. Bobby ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 04, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Interesting King Air Complete Electrical Failure
>6.5 minutes for total flight duration; generator loss to total >battery failure and *then* fly to the next airport?? > >Charlie Yeah . . . there's a LOT of things we'd like to know not the least of which is a time-line from wheels-up to wheels-on-the-ground. As I've illustrated in several paragraph-by-paragraph reviews, (of "dark-n-stormy-night" stories in the popular journals) these stories offer no useful information/advice to the reader/pilot who eagerly digests the narrative with the hope of propping up their own decisions in a similar situation. I'll suggest they do more harm than good. If there's a point to be made from virtually ALL of the past century of electrical system hangar-tales, it's NOT to make mental/mechanical preparations for dealing with the same issue . . . it's all about making sure it can't happen in YOUR airplane. The owner/pilot that understands their electrical system (especially those who configured and crafted it) would for the most part never suffer the indignities experienced by these authors in the first place! Instead of worrying about it, fix it. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 05, 2020
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Master switch alarm
My master requires a key.=C2- I have the key on the same ring as my hous e key.=C2- The only way I can leave the switch=C2- on is to leave the k ey in it, which I will know as soon as I'm not able to get in the house :-) omcast.net> wrote: As a forgetful=C2- ole geezer I leave the high intensity strobes on w hen out to a fly-in or the $100 hamburger and turn them off with the Master switch. You won't walk away from your plane without seeing them.=C2- You can turn them off before the next start. Back at home port I turn them off with the panel=C2- switch. Bobby ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David and Elaine Lamphere <dalamphere(at)comcast.net>
Subject: GPS rx over-population
Date: Jan 06, 2020
It seems like every time you turn around, you need GPS location input to make something work. First it was for moving map EFIS - OK - had a small hockey puck blu-tooth GPS receiver - worked great. Then ADSB comes along - need a WAAS GPS. Went the uAvionix SKYFYX-EXT/echoUAT route. Was actually able to get the GPS info off of the WIFI the echoUAT setup. Runs the adsb AND the Foreflight app running on the iPad. Sweet. This year I hope to finish the build on the Wittman Buttercup I have been building. Because of where I fly, it will have adsb plus a new 406Mhz ELT - which is supposed to have GPS position input! Im not familiar with RS232 usage (thats used between the uAvionix GPS receiver and the echoUAT) but it would be nice to share/use that data-stream instead of adding yet another GPS receiver. Is that possible? What about tapping into the WIFI GPS position data being generated by the echoUAT? I know, Im probably way out to lunch on this - but it seems there ought to be a better way. What say you? Dave Lamphere Wittman Tailwind N365DL Wittman Buttercup N365ED ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Jan 06, 2020
Subject: Re: GPS rx over-population
Dave, I am pretty sure that the ELTs all want GPS input via an RS-232 line, not WiFi. (Except for the few ELTs that have internal GPS receivers.) In my plane, I just spliced into the RS-232 line running from the GPS to the transponder (GPS TX pin to the transponder RX pin). I ran that line to the ELT RX pin. As a computer guy, who always thought of RS-232 as bi-directional communication, this seemed weird. I had to wrap my head around the notion that RS-232 is being used to broadcast information (kind of like an FM radio station) so it works just fine to hook one device's TX pin to the RX pins on several devices. -- Art Z. On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 7:11 AM David and Elaine Lamphere < dalamphere(at)comcast.net> wrote: > This year I hope to finish the build on the Wittman Buttercup I have been > building. Because of where I fly, it will have adsb plus a new 406Mhz ELT - > which is supposed to have GPS position input! > > I=99m not familiar with RS232 usage (that=99s used between th e uAvionix GPS > receiver and the echoUAT) but it would be nice to share/use that > data-stream instead of adding yet another GPS receiver. > > Is that possible? What about tapping into the WIFI GPS position data bein g > generated by the echoUAT? > I know, I=99m probably way out to lunch on this - but it seems ther e ought > to be a better way. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. *Deut. 10:19 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 06, 2020
Subject: Re: GPS rx over-population
As Art says, you should be able to send the position data from the SkyFX-EXT to both the echo UAT and the ELT by splicing into the GY wire. Check your ELT to make sure it will take NMEA protocol and 115200 baud input. Of course, the cheapest and easiest solution is not to have GPS position going to your ELT. Seems silly to have that capability and not use it but I've seen lots of installs done this way. On Mon, Jan 6, 2020, 05:43 Art Zemon wrote: > Dave, > > I am pretty sure that the ELTs all want GPS input via an RS-232 line, not > WiFi. (Except for the few ELTs that have internal GPS receivers.) > > In my plane, I just spliced into the RS-232 line running from the GPS to > the transponder (GPS TX pin to the transponder RX pin). I ran that line t o > the ELT RX pin. > > As a computer guy, who always thought of RS-232 as bi-directional > communication, this seemed weird. I had to wrap my head around the notion > that RS-232 is being used to broadcast information (kind of like an FM > radio station) so it works just fine to hook one device's TX pin to the R X > pins on several devices. > > -- Art Z. > > On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 7:11 AM David and Elaine Lamphere < > dalamphere(at)comcast.net> wrote: > >> This year I hope to finish the build on the Wittman Buttercup I have bee n >> building. Because of where I fly, it will have adsb plus a new 406Mhz EL T - >> which is supposed to have GPS position input! >> >> I=99m not familiar with RS232 usage (that=99s used between t he uAvionix GPS >> receiver and the echoUAT) but it would be nice to share/use that >> data-stream instead of adding yet another GPS receiver. >> >> Is that possible? What about tapping into the WIFI GPS position data >> being generated by the echoUAT? >> I know, I=99m probably way out to lunch on this - but it seems the re ought >> to be a better way. > > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. *Deut. > 10:19 > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 06, 2020
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: GPS rx over-population
Interesting note on what Sebastien said.=C2- I didn't have a GPS signal going to my ELT.=C2- When I had the off field landing, the ELT reported t he last GPS location that it had received. . . about 40 miles from where I was.=C2- m> wrote: As Art says, you should be able to send the position data from the SkyFX-E XT to both the echo UAT and the ELT by splicing into the GY wire. Check you r ELT to make sure it will take NMEA protocol and 115200 baud input. Of course, the cheapest and easiest solution is not to have GPS position go ing to your ELT. Seems silly to have that capability and not use it but I'v e seen lots of installs done this way. On Mon, Jan 6, 2020, 05:43 Art Zemon wrote: Dave, I am pretty sure that the ELTs all want GPS input via an RS-232 line, not W iFi. (Except for the few ELTs that have internal GPS receivers.) In my plane, I just spliced into the RS-232 line running from the GPS to th e transponder (GPS TX pin to the transponder RX pin). I ran that line to th e ELT RX pin.=C2- As a computer guy, who always thought of RS-232 as bi-directional communica tion, this seemed weird. I had to wrap my head around the notion that RS-23 2 is being used to broadcast information (kind of like an FM radio station) so it works just fine to hook one device's TX pin to the RX pins on severa l devices. =C2- =C2- -- Art Z. On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 7:11 AM David and Elaine Lamphere wrote: This year I hope to finish the build on the Wittman Buttercup I have been b uilding. Because of where I fly, it will have adsb plus a new 406Mhz ELT - which is supposed to have GPS position input! I=99m not familiar with RS232 usage (that=99s used between the uAvionix GPS receiver and the echoUAT) but it would be nice to share/use th at data-stream instead of adding yet another GPS receiver. Is that possible? What about tapping into the WIFI GPS position data being generated by the echoUAT? I know, I=99m probably way out to lunch on this - but it seems there ought to be a better way. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 06, 2020
Subject: Re: GPS rx over-population
Wow. I had no idea that was possible. What make ELT please? On Mon, Jan 6, 2020, 09:59 Ernest Christley wrote: > Interesting note on what Sebastien said. I didn't have a GPS signal goin g > to my ELT. When I had the off field landing, the ELT reported the last G PS > location that it had received. . . about 40 miles from where I was. > > wrote: > > > As Art says, you should be able to send the position data from the > SkyFX-EXT to both the echo UAT and the ELT by splicing into the GY wire. > Check your ELT to make sure it will take NMEA protocol and 115200 baud > input. > > Of course, the cheapest and easiest solution is not to have GPS position > going to your ELT. Seems silly to have that capability and not use it but > I've seen lots of installs done this way. > > On Mon, Jan 6, 2020, 05:43 Art Zemon wrote: > > Dave, > > I am pretty sure that the ELTs all want GPS input via an RS-232 line, not > WiFi. (Except for the few ELTs that have internal GPS receivers.) > > In my plane, I just spliced into the RS-232 line running from the GPS to > the transponder (GPS TX pin to the transponder RX pin). I ran that line t o > the ELT RX pin. > > As a computer guy, who always thought of RS-232 as bi-directional > communication, this seemed weird. I had to wrap my head around the notion > that RS-232 is being used to broadcast information (kind of like an FM > radio station) so it works just fine to hook one device's TX pin to the R X > pins on several devices. > > -- Art Z. > > On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 7:11 AM David and Elaine Lamphere < > dalamphere(at)comcast.net> wrote: > > This year I hope to finish the build on the Wittman Buttercup I have been > building. Because of where I fly, it will have adsb plus a new 406Mhz ELT - > which is supposed to have GPS position input! > > I=99m not familiar with RS232 usage (that=99s used between th e uAvionix GPS > receiver and the echoUAT) but it would be nice to share/use that > data-stream instead of adding yet another GPS receiver. > > Is that possible? What about tapping into the WIFI GPS position data bein g > generated by the echoUAT? > I know, I=99m probably way out to lunch on this - but it seems ther e ought > to be a better way. > > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. *Deut. > 10:19 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: GPS rx over-population
From: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 06, 2020
The "relatively" economical ACK E-04 accepts gps position and uses aircraft power to keep the current position in memory and ready to transmit it immediately upon activation. I'm amazed by how many owners with that unit don't bother to run two wires from their "portable" gps that sits on the panel and is plugged into aircraft panel anyway. Waiting several minutes for a 406 elt to attempt to acquire a position after activation is giving up a lot of the benefit of a 406 unit. Ken On 06/01/2020 1:06 PM, Sebastien wrote: > Wow. I had no idea that was possible. What make ELT please? > > On Mon, Jan 6, 2020, 09:59 Ernest Christley > wrote: > > Interesting note on what Sebastien said. I didn't have a GPS > signal going to my ELT. When I had the off field landing, the ELT > reported the last GPS location that it had received. . . about 40 > miles from where I was. > > > wrote: > > > As Art says, you should be able to send the position data from the > SkyFX-EXT to both the echo UAT and the ELT by splicing into the GY > wire. Check your ELT to make sure it will take NMEA protocol and > 115200 baud input. > > Of course, the cheapest and easiest solution is not to have GPS > position going to your ELT. Seems silly to have that capability > and not use it but I've seen lots of installs done this way. > > On Mon, Jan 6, 2020, 05:43 Art Zemon > wrote: > > Dave, > > I am pretty sure that the ELTs all want GPS input via an > RS-232 line, not WiFi. (Except for the few ELTs that have > internal GPS receivers.) > > In my plane, I just spliced into the RS-232 line running from > the GPS to the transponder (GPS TX pin to the transponder RX > pin). I ran that line to the ELT RX pin. > > As a computer guy, who always thought of RS-232 as > bi-directional communication, this seemed weird. I had to wrap > my head around the notion that RS-232 is being used to > broadcast information (kind of like an FM radio station) so it > works just fine to hook one device's TX pin to the RX pins on > several devices. > > -- Art Z. > > On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 7:11 AM David and Elaine Lamphere > > wrote: > > This year I hope to finish the build on the Wittman > Buttercup I have been building. Because of where I fly, it > will have adsb plus a new 406Mhz ELT - which is supposed > to have GPS position input! > > Im not familiar with RS232 usage (thats used between the > uAvionix GPS receiver and the echoUAT) but it would be > nice to share/use that data-stream instead of adding yet > another GPS receiver. > > Is that possible? What about tapping into the WIFI GPS > position data being generated by the echoUAT? > I know, Im probably way out to lunch on this - but it > seems there ought to be a better way. > > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > /Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. > /Deut. 10:19 > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David and Elaine Lamphere <dalamphere(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Fwd: GPS rx over-population
Date: Jan 06, 2020
Thank you so much for the responses. I currently am not receiving aero-electric posts for some reason but was able to read what you said off of the forum web-site. Thanks! Begin forwarded message: From: David and Elaine Lamphere <dalamphere(at)comcast.net> Subject: GPS rx over-population Date: January 6, 2020 at 7:54:15 AM EST It seems like every time you turn around, you need GPS location input to make something work. First it was for moving map EFIS - OK - had a small hockey puck blu-tooth GPS receiver - worked great. Then ADSB comes along - need a WAAS GPS. Went the uAvionix SKYFYX-EXT/echoUAT route. Was actually able to get the GPS info off of the WIFI the echoUAT setup. Runs the adsb AND the Foreflight app running on the iPad. Sweet. This year I hope to finish the build on the Wittman Buttercup I have been building. Because of where I fly, it will have adsb plus a new 406Mhz ELT - which is supposed to have GPS position input! I=99m not familiar with RS232 usage (that=99s used between the uAvionix GPS receiver and the echoUAT) but it would be nice to share/use that data-stream instead of adding yet another GPS receiver. Is that possible? What about tapping into the WIFI GPS position data being generated by the echoUAT? I know, I=99m probably way out to lunch on this - but it seems there ought to be a better way. What say you? Dave Lamphere Wittman Tailwind N365DL Wittman Buttercup N365ED ________________________________________________________________________________
From: David and Elaine Lamphere <dalamphere(at)comcast.net>
Subject: GPS rx over-population
Date: Jan 06, 2020
A follow-up: Looks like Im back to square-1 as the ELTs I have looked into only handle RS232 max rates of 9600 - definitely slower than the 115200 rate from the SkyFX-EXT GPS connected to the echoUAT. (that I wanted to use for adsb) Dave ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John jwrjrjwrjr <jwrjrjwrjr(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 06, 2020
Subject: Re: GPS rx over-population
https://www.advantech.com/products/9b61869b-9881-49a5-ae89-43f1437c14d1/bb- 232brc/mod_de20c037-35f8-4c4e-9141-2edfb6034228 On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 7:30 PM David and Elaine Lamphere < dalamphere(at)comcast.net> wrote: > dalamphere(at)comcast.net> > > A follow-up: > Looks like I=99m back to =9Csquare-1=9D as the ELT =99s I have looked into only > handle RS232 max rates of 9600 - definitely slower than the 115200 rate > from the SkyFX-EXT GPS connected to the echoUAT. (that I wanted to use fo r > adsb) > > Dave =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John M Tipton <john(at)tipton.me.uk>
Subject: Re: GPS rx over-population
Date: Jan 07, 2020
That baud rate does seem excessive, the equipment Im fitting seems to have a common rate of 9600 John Sent from my iPad ----x--O--x---- > On 7 Jan 2020, at 12:38 am, David and Elaine Lamphere wrote: > > > A follow-up: > Looks like Im back to square-1 as the ELTs I have looked into only handle RS232 max rates of 9600 - definitely slower than the 115200 rate from the SkyFX-EXT GPS connected to the echoUAT. (that I wanted to use for adsb) > > Dave > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: E-Mail Digest Not Working
From: "BobD" <rjd(at)bobdawson.plus.com>
Date: Jan 07, 2020
> I currently am not receiving aero-electric posts for some reason The daily e-mail digest has not been working for me for a few weeks now. I e-mailed Matt, and he said it must be my ISP filtering the e-mail as junk, but I have checked with my e-mail provider, and this is not the case. I think it is a problem at the Server end. The digest has failed a few times over the last few years, but generally comes back after a couple of week, but not this time. Has anyone else suffered with this problem ? -------- Bob Dawson Europa XS TG || 912 ULS || G-NHRJ || Dynon Skyview || PilotAware || SmartAss3 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494186#494186 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 07, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Master switch alarm
At 11:37 AM 1/5/2020, you wrote: >My master requires a key. I have the key on the same ring as my >house key. The only way I can leave the switch on is to leave the >key in it, which I will know as soon as I'm not able to get in the house :-) > > wrote: > > >As a forgetful ole geezer I leave the high intensity strobes on >when out to a fly-in or the $100 hamburger and turn them off with >the Master switch. You won't walk away from your plane without >seeing them. You can turn them off before the next start. >Back at home port I turn them off with the panel switch. > >Bobby My all time favorite system shut down warning is the flashing, low voltage warning light. We used to sell a kit that included a high intensity led annunciator fixture. The instructions suggested that the annunciator be mounted in prominent location in front of pilot. The FIRST thing you see when the BAT MASTER comes on is a red flashing light, the LAST thing you see is the same light just before the master is turned off. This configuration conforms to several design goals for system reliability. The obvious feature is timely and active notification of a low volts event. It gets pre and post flight tested on every flight. It helps remind the pilot to get everything shut down before exiting the aircraft. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 07, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Master switch alarm
At 11:37 AM 1/5/2020, you wrote: >My master requires a key. I have the key on the same ring as my >house key. The only way I can leave the switch on is to leave the >key in it, which I will know as soon as I'm not able to get in the house :-) > > wrote: > > >As a forgetful ole geezer I leave the high intensity strobes on >when out to a fly-in or the $100 hamburger and turn them off with >the Master switch. You won't walk away from your plane without >seeing them. You can turn them off before the next start. >Back at home port I turn them off with the panel switch. > >Bobby My all time favorite system shut down warning is the flashing, low voltage warning light. We used to sell a kit that included a high intensity led annunciator fixture. The instructions suggested that the annunciator be mounted in prominent location in front of pilot. The FIRST thing you see when the BAT MASTER comes on is a red flashing light, the LAST thing you see is the same light just before the master is turned off. This configuration conforms to several design goals for system reliability. The obvious feature is timely and active notification of a low volts event. It gets pre and post flight tested on every flight. It helps remind the pilot to get everything shut down before exiting the aircraft. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 07, 2020
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: GPS rx over-population
As Ken pointed out, it was the ACK. > wrote: Wow. I had no idea that was possible. What make ELT please? On Mon, Jan 6, 2020, 09:59 Ernest Christley wrote: Interesting note on what Sebastien said.=C2- I didn't have a GPS signal going to my ELT.=C2- When I had the off field landing, the ELT reported t he last GPS location that it had received. . . about 40 miles from where I was.=C2- m> wrote: As Art says, you should be able to send the position data from the SkyFX-E XT to both the echo UAT and the ELT by splicing into the GY wire. Check you r ELT to make sure it will take NMEA protocol and 115200 baud input. Of course, the cheapest and easiest solution is not to have GPS position go ing to your ELT. Seems silly to have that capability and not use it but I'v e seen lots of installs done this way. On Mon, Jan 6, 2020, 05:43 Art Zemon wrote: Dave, I am pretty sure that the ELTs all want GPS input via an RS-232 line, not W iFi. (Except for the few ELTs that have internal GPS receivers.) In my plane, I just spliced into the RS-232 line running from the GPS to th e transponder (GPS TX pin to the transponder RX pin). I ran that line to th e ELT RX pin.=C2- As a computer guy, who always thought of RS-232 as bi-directional communica tion, this seemed weird. I had to wrap my head around the notion that RS-23 2 is being used to broadcast information (kind of like an FM radio station) so it works just fine to hook one device's TX pin to the RX pins on severa l devices. =C2- =C2- -- Art Z. On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 7:11 AM David and Elaine Lamphere wrote: This year I hope to finish the build on the Wittman Buttercup I have been b uilding. Because of where I fly, it will have adsb plus a new 406Mhz ELT - which is supposed to have GPS position input! I=99m not familiar with RS232 usage (that=99s used between the uAvionix GPS receiver and the echoUAT) but it would be nice to share/use th at data-stream instead of adding yet another GPS receiver. Is that possible? What about tapping into the WIFI GPS position data being generated by the echoUAT? I know, I=99m probably way out to lunch on this - but it seems there ought to be a better way. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Paul Fisher <rv7a.n18pf(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 07, 2020
Subject: Re: Master switch alarm
I too have a flashing light on the panel to indicate low voltage ("you left the master on stupid!"), however I have still left it on. I get distracted by someone on the ground as I'm getting out, or bright sunlight washes it out, or I just didn't look - it didn't matter I still left it on! So I built a small circuit using a PIC and programmed it to start beeping 30 seconds after the bus voltage drops below 13 volts. I like the audio alarm that only goes off if I take too long to shutdown so I don't get used to it. Besides, it was a fun project - education and recreation, just like the FAA says! Paul Fisher RV-7A N18PF Q-200 N17PF On Tue, Jan 7, 2020, 11:32 Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 11:37 AM 1/5/2020, you wrote: > > My master requires a key. I have the key on the same ring as my house > key. The only way I can leave the switch on is to leave the key in it, > which I will know as soon as I'm not able to get in the house :-) > > bobbypaulk(at)comcast.net> wrote: > > > As a forgetful ole geezer I leave the high intensity strobes on when out > to a fly-in or the $100 hamburger and turn them off with the Master switch. > You won't walk away from your plane without seeing them. You can turn them > off before the next start. > Back at home port I turn them off with the panel switch. > > Bobby > > > My all time favorite system shut down warning > is the flashing, low voltage warning light. We used > to sell a kit that included a high intensity > led annunciator fixture. The instructions > suggested that the annunciator be mounted > in prominent location in front of pilot. > > The FIRST thing you see when the BAT MASTER > comes on is a red flashing light, the LAST > thing you see is the same light just before > the master is turned off. > > This configuration conforms to several > design goals for system reliability. > The obvious feature is timely and > active notification of a low volts > event. It gets pre and post flight tested on > every flight. It helps remind the > pilot to get everything shut > down before exiting the aircraft. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 08, 2020
From: Bobby Paulk <bobbypaulk(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Not receiving e-mail
I have spent several hours on Comcast to find out why I am not receiving my emails from Matronics. I have had case numbers and talked to supervisors. Finally one said it was the sender but Matt said to open a Gmail account and since then I have not had a problem with it. I still get a random email thru Comcast but nothing regular. I would like to have it all on one server but I don't know if that is going to be possible. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: One battery/two alternators IFR z-diagram
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 08, 2020
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > At 08:26 PM 12/18/2019, you wrote: > > > After doing some reading on the FAQ list, it looks like I should consider the Z-13/8 with the Z-25 excitation mod, or else the Z-14. I think I also now understand one of the drawbacks of Z-12 architecture is if the battery contactor fails, both alternators go offline. > > > > Michael- > > > That's generally not true with modern alternators . . . > and only a few of the legacy alternators. > > It's true that many alternators will not come > online without a battery present . . .but once > running, they'll hum along oblivious to battery > being there or not. > > With HEAVY inrush loads like klieg-lights in the > wings or hydraulic pump motors. It was theoretically > possible to stall an alternator . . .from which > recovery would be impossible unless a battery were > present. > . > . > . > > Bob . . . Hi Bob... question... need there be a load on a wound field alternator for it to continue working in case of battery disconnect? -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F Dual Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494198#494198 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: E-Mail Digest Not Working
From: "rsmith52" <rodsmith52(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 08, 2020
Right now I am receiving the E-mail digests. It has been interrupted in the past for up to a couple weeks. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494199#494199 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 08, 2020
Subject: Re: Not receiving e-mail
I frequently get two copies of emails from the forum, and I know Yahoo isn =99t creating duplicates of only Matronics emails but no others. Sometim es the duplicates are separated by minutes, sometimes by hours and occasiona lly by a day. I also get lots of Matronics emails filtered into the spam folder (I get ind ividual emails, not the digest), so I have to check that often. This could b e fixed by a white-list filter if Matt would set the software to send from a single Matronics address but instead, the echo routine spoofs each sender =99s address, making spam filtering much harder for the recipient=99 s host. I=99ve just been chalking it all up to the archaic forum software Matt uses to operate the Matronics empire. I don=99t know why he hasn =99t upgraded to a modern forum package but as long as he keeps running it o n donations, it=99s hard to complain. Eric > On Jan 8, 2020, at 5:41 AM, Bobby Paulk wrote: > I have spent several hours on Comcast to find out why I am not receiving m y emails from Matronics. I have had case numbers and talked to supervisors. Finally one said it was the sender but Matt said to open a Gmail account and since then I have not had a problem with it. I still get a random email th ru Comcast but nothing regular. I would like to have it all on one server bu t I don't know if that is going to be possible. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 08, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: One battery/two alternators IFR z-diagram
> >Hi Bob... question... need there be a load on a wound field >alternator for it to continue working in case of battery disconnect? No . . . you can 'stall' a free-running alternator by hitting it with a big load, generally larger than it's nameplate rating. If you have and electro-hydraulic gear, then inrush on the PM pump motor may well cause a self-excited alternator to go down . . . but if you remove most if not all loads, they'll generally self excite and come back on line whereupon you can turn some things back on. Folks used to be fond of dual, 150 watt landing lights . . . turning both of these puppies on at the same time might take down an alternator that's not supported by a battery. With the advent of led lighting and the relative rarity of retractable gear airplanes, those antagonists are mostly ghosts of yesteryear. Depending on the regulator design, most alternators will come on line in an orderly fashion with small or no loads . . . they will run in a civilized manner as long as you don't hammer them with a 'start up transient' that exceeds nameplate rating. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 08, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: One battery/two alternators IFR z-diagram
> >Hi Bob... question... need there be a load on a wound field >alternator for it to continue working in case of battery disconnect? No . . . you can 'stall' a free-running alternator by hitting it with a big load, generally larger than it's nameplate rating. If you have and electro-hydraulic gear, then inrush on the PM pump motor may well cause a self-excited alternator to go down . . . but if you remove most if not all loads, they'll generally self excite and come back on line whereupon you can turn some things back on. Folks used to be fond of dual, 150 watt landing lights . . . turning both of these puppies on at the same time might take down an alternator that's not supported by a battery. With the advent of led lighting and the relative rarity of retractable gear airplanes, those antagonists are mostly ghosts of yesteryear. Depending on the regulator design, most alternators will come on line in an orderly fashion with small or no loads . . . they will run in a civilized manner as long as you don't hammer them with a 'start up transient' that exceeds nameplate rating. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 10, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Lithium BMS and 'load-dump' worries
> > >=C2 The recently referenced thread on the Vans Air >Force forum proves that it's still the case. The >original poster of that thread has been building >electronic ignition and electronic injection >systems for aircraft for at least a couple of >decades, and he stumbled upon the knowledge >while doing periodic load testing (that he >obviously didn't do before putting the lithium >tech battery of choice into service). This was >not an EarthX aviation battery; it was one of >the offerings from a motorsports company. This underscores the value of 'getting the numbers' . . . Here is an excerpt from an Enersys-Hawker engineering data publication. Emacs! No 'hat dancing' no undefined or vague terms. This chart says that an off the shelf PC680 should deliver hard values of stored energy depending on (1) discharge rate or load and (2) condition of the battery [cap check]. In the course of our conversations, I sent a copy of this chart to EarthX suggesting that until the aviation consumer had this kind of data they were not serving their customer well. CRANKING is one thing, ENDURANCE is quite another. >=C2 To their credit, EarthX seems to have >modified their aviation offerings and increased >the cell size (count?) so that total energy does >compare with the various SLAs they are marketing >against. It did take some rather pointed, public >comments on aviation forums for that to happen. Good for them . . .and I suspect others but I've not surveyed the market offerings. >On the 'load dump' issue: The BMS in the EarthX >(according to EX's own literature, and their rep >who posts frequently on VAF) will disconnect the >battery under what it considers an overvoltage charge condition . . . I've never understood this feature if the target market is either (1) TC aircraft or (2) artfully crafted OBAM aircraft. The ONLY source for an overvoltage condition is a failed regulator. A fact that has been recognized and addressed for 70 years by the application of over voltage detection and mitigation. They only reason to include it in the battery's BMS is to cover the instances where ov protection is NOT provided by the owner/operator . . . and were I to offer a lithium product to the non-TC community, there would be a big sticker on the side of the battery, "Warranty and Performance claims are void unless the system is fitted with ov protection". > . . . also when it thinks the battery is in > danger of being excessively depleted, Yup, EVERY lithium product supplier says don't discharge below x.x volts per cell . . . 2.8 being a popular number. Again, a condition very easily addressed at the airframe system level . . . to include this inside every battery seems wasteful . . . >or too high a current demand is being placed on it. Gee, I thought that's what current limiters were for . . . >The very fact that the BMS *can* disconnect the >battery (for whatever reason), should, it seems >to me, require us to include that fact in >failure mode analysis. If the BMS itself fails >in a fashion that disconnects the battery, >that's a new and different failure mode (which >may come as a complete shock if one hasn't done >his homework). If the BMS gets confused and >thinks the alternator is in an OV condition, it >may disconnect from the electrical system> load >dump>potential alternator failure>dark airplane. I have no doubts that the BMS offered by EarthX, True Blue and perhaps others perform as advertised with exceedingly low risk . . . but why all the so much monkey motion built INSIDE each delivered unit and repurchased every time a battery is replaced is a mystery. >While load dumps might not be an every day >occurrence, they do happen. Many years ago, I >killed an alternator with an ill-advised switch >flip, so I know it can happen. An EarthX battery >mixed with one of those old school IR >alternators does up the odds of a dark airplane, >if failure modes aren't accounted for. Exemplar Load Dump Definition: Load dump means the disconnection of a powered load. It can cause 2 problems: failure of supply to equipment or customers large voltage spikes from the inductive generator In automotive electronics, it refers to the disconnection of the vehicle battery from the alternator while the battery is being charged. Due to such a disconnection of the battery, other loads connected to the alternator see a surge in power line. The peak voltage of this surge may be as high as 120 V and the surge may take up to 400 ms to decay. It it typically clamped to 40 V in 12 V vehicles and about 60 V in 24 V systems. A load dump event is simply an abrupt disconnect of near max load from an alternator. It doesn't need to be a battery disconnect . . . but if there is no battery, the dump transient can be higher. I've created many a 'load dump' on the test bench with no battery on line. You load an engine driven power source with a load equal to nameplate rating at maximum expected operating RPM. Then simply disconnect the load and measure what happens. The regulator/alternator dynamics determine the severity of the recovery transient. But as long as a battery is on line, the transient is trivial. Further, DO160 qualification parameters dictate that the righteous accessory is not at risk for being subjected to such transients. The likelihood that a deeply discharged battery being recharged in a system otherwise lightly loaded becomes disconnected from the bus is exceedingly low . . . A 'load dump' transient is short lived . . . a few hundred milliseconds. It CAN be of significant amplitude as I described in the last revision to the chapter on alternators. But to see/measure one of these critters takes some careful attention to conditions that generate the event. The Van's crowd got their nickers in a wad about 20 years ago when a builder purposefully cycled the alternator control switch in Figure Z24 into a less than charged battery. Indeed it zorked his regulator. The transient WAS NOT conducted onto the bus. It affected only the alternator's build in regulator. Van's alternator of choice was of unknown pedigree and even then, failure of this particular alternator may have been at the fringes of the bell-curve. Nonetheless, the event triggered a flurry of excited and under-informed assertions and decisions by some members of the OBAM aviation community. The 'load dump' condition is poorly understood and over-worried. Further, it's in a completely separate basket from BMS considerations in lithium batteries. The load-dump overshoot will be greatly mitigated by the presence of the battery and it's BMS will have no reason to disconnect. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Lithium BMS and 'load-dump' worries
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 10, 2020
On 1/10/2020 10:32 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> >> The recently referenced thread on the Vans Air Force forum proves >> that it's still the case. The original poster of that thread has been >> building electronic ignition and electronic injection systems for >> aircraft for at least a couple of decades, and he stumbled upon the >> knowledge while doing periodic load testing (that he obviously didn't >> do before putting the lithium tech battery of choice into service). >> This was not an EarthX aviation battery; it was one of the offerings >> from a motorsports company. > > This underscores the value of 'getting the > numbers' . . . > > Here is an excerpt from an Enersys-Hawker engineering > data publication. > > Emacs! > > No 'hat dancing' no undefined or vague terms. This chart > says that an off the shelf PC680 should deliver hard > values of stored energy depending on (1) discharge > rate or load and (2) condition of the battery [cap check]. > > In the course of our conversations, I sent a copy of this chart > to EarthX suggesting that until the aviation consumer > had this kind of data they were not serving their customer > well. CRANKING is one thing, ENDURANCE is quite another. > >> To their credit, EarthX seems to have modified their aviation >> offerings and increased the cell size (count?) so that total energy >> does compare with the various SLAs they are marketing against. It did >> take some rather pointed, public comments on aviation forums for that >> to happen. > > Good for them . . .and I suspect others but I've > not surveyed the market offerings. > > >> On the 'load dump' issue: The BMS in the EarthX (according to EX's >> own literature, and their rep who posts frequently on VAF) will >> disconnect the battery under what it considers an overvoltage charge >> condition . . . > > > I've never understood this feature if the > target market is either (1) TC aircraft or > (2) artfully crafted OBAM aircraft. The > ONLY source for an overvoltage condition is > a failed regulator. A fact that has been > recognized and addressed for 70 years by > the application of over voltage detection > and mitigation. They only reason to include it > in the battery's BMS is to cover the instances > where ov protection is NOT provided by the > owner/operator . . . and were I to offer > a lithium product to the non-TC community, > there would be a big sticker on the side of > the battery, "Warranty and Performance claims > are void unless the system is fitted with > ov protection". > >> . . . also when it thinks the battery is in danger of being >> excessively depleted, > > Yup, EVERY lithium product supplier says > don't discharge below x.x volts per cell . . . > 2.8 being a popular number. Again, a condition > very easily addressed at the airframe system > level . . . to include this inside every > battery seems wasteful . . . > >> or too high a current demand is being placed on it. > > Gee, I thought that's what current limiters > were for . . . > >> The very fact that the BMS *can* disconnect the battery (for whatever >> reason), should, it seems to me, require us to include that fact in >> failure mode analysis. If the BMS itself fails in a fashion that >> disconnects the battery, that's a new and different failure mode >> (which may come as a complete shock if one hasn't done his homework). >> If the BMS gets confused and thinks the alternator is in an OV >> condition, it may disconnect from the electrical system> load >> dump>potential alternator failure>dark airplane. > > I have no doubts that the BMS offered by EarthX, > True Blue and perhaps others perform as advertised > with exceedingly low risk . . . but why all > the so much monkey motion built INSIDE each > delivered unit and repurchased every time > a battery is replaced is a mystery. > > >> While load dumps might not be an every day occurrence, they do >> happen. Many years ago, I killed an alternator with an ill-advised >> switch flip, so I know it can happen. An EarthX battery mixed with >> one of those old school IR alternators does up the odds of a dark >> airplane, if failure modes aren't accounted for. > > Exemplar Load Dump Definition: > > */Load dump means the disconnection of a powered load. It can cause 2 > problems: failure of supply to equipment or customers large voltage > spikes from the inductive generator In automotive electronics, it > refers to the disconnection of the vehicle battery from the alternator > while the battery is being charged. Due to such a disconnection of the > battery, other loads connected to the alternator see a surge in power > line. The peak voltage of this surge may be as high as 120 V and the > surge may take up to 400 ms to decay. It it typically clamped to 40 V > in 12 V vehicles and about 60 V in 24 V systems. > > > /* A load dump event is simply an abrupt > disconnect of near max load from an > alternator. It doesn't need to be a > battery disconnect . . . but if there > is no battery, the dump transient can > be higher. > > I've created many a 'load dump' on the test > bench with no battery on line. You load an > engine driven power source with a load equal > to nameplate rating at maximum expected operating > RPM. Then simply disconnect the load and measure > what happens. > > The regulator/alternator dynamics determine > the severity of the recovery transient. But > as long as a battery is on line, the transient > is trivial. Further, DO160 qualification parameters > dictate that the righteous accessory is not > at risk for being subjected to such transients. > The likelihood that a deeply discharged battery > being recharged in a system otherwise lightly > loaded becomes disconnected from the bus is > exceedingly low . . . > > A 'load dump' transient is short lived . . . a > few hundred milliseconds. It CAN be of significant > amplitude as I described in the last revision to the > chapter on alternators. But to see/measure one > of these critters takes some careful attention > to conditions that generate the event. The Van's > crowd got their nickers in a wad about 20 years > ago when a builder purposefully cycled the alternator > control switch in Figure Z24 into a less than > charged battery. Indeed it zorked his regulator. > The transient WAS NOT conducted onto the bus. It > affected only the alternator's build in regulator. > > Van's alternator of choice was of unknown > pedigree and even then, failure of this particular > alternator may have been at the fringes of the > bell-curve. Nonetheless, the event triggered > a flurry of excited and under-informed assertions > and decisions by some members of the OBAM aviation > community. > > The 'load dump' condition is poorly understood > and over-worried. Further, it's in a completely > separate basket from BMS considerations in > lithium batteries. The load-dump overshoot > will be greatly mitigated by the presence > of the battery and it's BMS will have no > reason to disconnect. > > Bob . . . > No argument with any of the above, *except* this: Saying that there's no reason to have avoidable issues if we do our research, doesn't mean that we'll actually *do* our research. (ex: the recent VAF thread on battery capacity.) I promise you that until Ross (on VAF) posted his endurance report, virtually every person on VAF that's replaced an SLA with lithium tech has *assumed* that because the CCA numbers are equal, the capacity is equal. The RVx guys, as a group, are incredibly resistant to looking at any info source other than VAF. And after years of reading VAF posts giving electrical advice, I can tell you that a lot of it is quite bad. On a related point, SLA capacity numbers are available from a number of different vendors, but for lithium tech, it's much more difficult to find and/or interpret, for a more 'typical' aviator. My point about 'load dump' is that many of us are still using alternators from that 2 decade old era you reference, and many (likely almost all) of those in that subset have no idea about the research documented here on this list. I agree that the likelihood of BMS failure in a brand EX battery is unlikely. BUT: IIRC, it's already been documented by someone flying an RVx. Wouldn't you agree that when doing a failure mode analysis of our wiring architecture, we should include that failure mode? I know that the B&C products are immune to 'load dump' issues, but for those of us running alternators of 'unknown pedigree', don't we need to consider the risk of a BMS disconnect also taking out our regulator? Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 10, 2020
Subject: Re: Not receiving e-mail
Here=99s a perfect example of the problem. The message below, which B ob sent on the 8th, arrived to my inbox twice on that day. This morning =94 two days later =94 it arrived again. I don=99t know how this could be anything but a Matronics server probl em. It happens only with messages from the Aero-Electric List and no others . Eric =94=94=94=94=94 Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: One battery/two alternators IFR z-diagram >> On Jan 8, 2020, at 13:05, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelect ric.com> wrote: >> Hi Bob... question... need there be a load on a wound field alternator fo r it to continue working in case of battery disconnect? > > No . . . you can 'stall' a free-running alternator by hitting it with a b ig load, generally larger than it's nameplate rating. > [SNIP] ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 10, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Lithium BMS and 'load-dump' worries
>The RVx guys, as a group, are incredibly resistant to looking at any >info source other than VAF. And after years of reading VAF posts >giving electrical advice, I can tell you that a lot of it is quite bad. That's one of the reasons that the AE-List came into existence. >On a related point, SLA capacity numbers are available from a number >of different vendors, but for lithium tech, it's much more difficult >to find and/or interpret, for a more 'typical' aviator. But it's easy to acquire . . . call the manufacturer. Alternatively, go measure it . . . or get somebody to do it for you. Then publish the findings. If there are any concerns, worries, uncertainties about system performance or reliability . . . there is a process by which they can be resolved. Recorded measurements under documented test conditions are pretty solid foundations for design descisions. >My point about 'load dump' is that many of us are still using >alternators from that >2 decade old era you reference, and many (likely almost all) of those in that >subset have no idea about the research documented here on this list. Has there been more than the one load-dump failure event that planted the seeds of concerns, worries, uncertainties? We know that the triggering circumstance for the original failure was the builder's repetitive operation of the alternator ON-OFF control with a Z-24 ov management system. In this case, the battery wasn't disconnected from the system . . . rather the alternator b-lead connection was broken. We're not privy to the state of the battery. For the sake of argument, let's assume the battery was in a low state of charge. It's not likely that there was a large load on the bus. The alternator has no way of knowing what is loading the output. All it knows is total load. So when the b-lead was repeatedly made and broken, what ever total load was present contributed to excitation of dump transient. No investigation was made for assessing first failure in the regulator. Nobody knows if it was an OEM regulator or an after market device. No failure analysis of consequence was conducted or even possible. I suggest that factoring this single event into a couple decades of 'advice' INCREASES rather than REDUCES risk. >I agree that the likelihood of BMS failure in a brand EX battery is >unlikely. BUT: IIRC, it's already been documented by someone flying >an RVx. Wouldn't you agree that when doing a failure mode analysis >of our wiring architecture, we should include that failure mode? Sure. So from time of master switch ON to master switch OFF on any given flight cycle, what sequence of conditions have to stack up for a BMS battery disconnect failure to initiate a potentially risky load dump event? (1) Engine rpm would have to be high (2) battery in poor state of charge (3) BMS (or battery contactor) has to suffer sudden open circuit. The potential for battery contactor, wiring and switch to trigger the event is no different than BMS failure. Do we think the failure rate on a solid state BMS is greater than failure rate on the contactor/wiring/ switch combination? And what is the outcome we're trying to mitigate? Loss of alternator, runaway alternator. Are there circumstances other than loss of contactor/BMS that might trigger the same condition? How about failure within the sketchy regulator's components? >I know that the B&C products are immune to 'load dump' issues, but >for those of us running alternators of 'unknown pedigree', >don't we need to consider the risk of a BMS disconnect also >taking out our regulator? Sure. If it were my airplane and I was flying an internally regulated alternator of unknown pedigree, I'd install Z-24 and refrain from operating the alternator ON/OFF switch at high rpm and high alternator loads. In this case, loss of BMS (or contactor) under optimally unhappy conditions MIGHT take out the regulator. (a) If the alternator just QUITS, your in-flight decision making process is no different than if you'd broken a belt. (b) If the alternator goes into RUNAWAY, the OV protection system will bring it under control. The alternator switch is ONLY operated at idle rpm after start up and before shut down. With this design philosophy and operating protocol, it doesn't matter what kind of battery or alternator you've installed. The lithium battery BMS is of no more concern than your battery contactor. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Lithium BMS and 'load-dump' worries
From: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 10, 2020
There are also a lot of us running PM alternators and there are a lot of them on rotax engines. Most of those regulators are not terribly robust. I permanently failed a 20 amp oem John Deere Rectifier/Regulator just by idling the engine with a flat battery. Yes I knew better but... Anyway the voltage immediately went high enough to trip the crowbar OVM. With an EFI engine I will be staying with VRLA batteries and no BMS for the time being despite the extra weight. Ken On 10/01/2020 4:27 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> The RVx guys, as a group, are incredibly resistant to looking at any >> info source other than VAF. And after years of reading VAF posts >> giving electrical advice, I can tell you that a lot of it is quite bad. > > That's one of the reasons that the AE-List > came into existence. > >> On a related point, SLA capacity numbers are available from a number >> of different vendors, but for lithium tech, it's much more difficult >> to find and/or interpret, for a more 'typical' aviator. > > But it's easy to acquire . . . call the > manufacturer. Alternatively, go measure > it . . . or get somebody to do it for you. > Then publish the findings. > > If there are any concerns, worries, > uncertainties about system performance > or reliability . . . there is a process > by which they can be resolved. Recorded > measurements under documented test > conditions are pretty solid foundations > for design descisions. > > >> My point about 'load dump' is that many of us are still using >> alternators from that >> 2 decade old era you reference, and many (likely almost all) of those >> in that >> subset have no idea about the research documented here on this list. > > Has there been more than the one > load-dump failure event that planted the > seeds of concerns, worries, uncertainties? > > We know that the triggering circumstance > for the original failure was the builder's > repetitive operation of the alternator > ON-OFF control with a Z-24 ov management > system. > > In this case, the battery wasn't disconnected > from the system . . . rather the alternator > b-lead connection was broken. We're not privy > to the state of the battery. For the sake > of argument, let's assume the battery was in > a low state of charge. It's not likely that > there was a large load on the bus. > > The alternator has no way of knowing what > is loading the output. All it knows is > total load. So when the b-lead was repeatedly > made and broken, what ever total load was > present contributed to excitation of dump > transient. > > No investigation was made for assessing > first failure in the regulator. Nobody knows > if it was an OEM regulator or an after market > device. No failure analysis of consequence was conducted > or even possible. I suggest that factoring this single > event into a couple decades of 'advice' INCREASES > rather than REDUCES risk. > >> I agree that the likelihood of BMS failure in a brand EX battery is >> unlikely. BUT: IIRC, it's already been documented by someone flying >> an RVx. Wouldn't you agree that when doing a failure mode analysis of >> our wiring architecture, we should include that failure mode? > > Sure. So from time of master switch ON to > master switch OFF on any given flight cycle, > what sequence of conditions have to stack up > for a BMS battery disconnect failure to initiate > a potentially risky load dump event? > > (1) Engine rpm would have to be high > > (2) battery in poor state of charge > > (3) BMS (or battery contactor) has to suffer > sudden open circuit. The potential for > battery contactor, wiring and switch > to trigger the event is no different > than BMS failure. > > Do we think the failure rate on a solid state BMS > is greater than failure rate on the contactor/wiring/ > switch combination? And what is the outcome we're > trying to mitigate? Loss of alternator, runaway > alternator. Are there circumstances other than > loss of contactor/BMS that might trigger the > same condition? How about failure within the > sketchy regulator's components? > >> I know that the B&C products are immune to 'load dump' issues, but >> for those of us running alternators of 'unknown pedigree', >> don't we need to consider the risk of a BMS disconnect also >> taking out our regulator? > > Sure. If it were my airplane and I was flying > an internally regulated alternator of unknown > pedigree, I'd install Z-24 and refrain from > operating the alternator ON/OFF switch at > high rpm and high alternator loads. In this > case, loss of BMS (or contactor) under optimally > unhappy conditions MIGHT take out the regulator. > > (a) If the alternator just QUITS, your in-flight decision > making process is no different than if you'd > broken a belt. > > (b) If the alternator goes into > RUNAWAY, the OV protection system will > bring it under control. > > The alternator switch is ONLY operated at > idle rpm after start up and before shut down. > With this design philosophy and operating > protocol, it doesn't matter what kind of > battery or alternator you've installed. > The lithium battery BMS is of no more > concern than your battery contactor. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robert Paulk <2bpaulk(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 11, 2020
Subject: E-mail
I was wondering how many others on this list are having trouble receiving their emails by a server other than G-Mail. Comcast has been intermittent and I am now not receiving them at all. I have spent several hours on the phone and had several case numbers assigned to no avail. Matt recommended G-mail and I have not had any problems since changing over but would like to keep it all in one server. I am not sure that Comcast even delivered this notice back to this list. Thanks for any information you can provide. Bobby ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Jan 11, 2020
Subject: Re: E-mail
Bobby, I ran mailing list servers similar to what the AeroElectric list uses for over 30 years. The problem is that the Matronics server is incorrectly handling the SMTP headers. It is using a technique which was OK a decade ago but is now considered to be spoofing (a polite way of saying "forging") the identity of the sender. Because of this, most email systems consider messages coming from the AeroElectric list to be spam. This is what a message looks like in Gmail: [image: Screenshot 2020-01-11 at 7.25.05 AM.png] At least Gmail delivers the messages (most of the time). Comcast is probably dumping them into the spam bucket. You cannot fix this. The fix has to be done by the folks who run the mailing list server. -- Art Z. On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 6:57 AM Robert Paulk <2bpaulk(at)gmail.com> wrote: > I was wondering how many others on this list are having trouble > receiving their emails by a server other than G-Mail. Comcast has been > intermittent and I am now not receiving them at all. I have spent several > hours on the phone and had several case numbers assigned to no avail. Matt > recommended G-mail and I have not had any problems since changing over but > would like to keep it all in one server. I am not sure that Comcast even > delivered this notice back to this list. > Thanks for any information you can provide. > Bobby > -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. *Deut. 10:19 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 11, 2020
From: Charles Kuss <chaskuss(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: E-mail
I'm using Yahoo and I've had no problems Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 8:49 AM, Robert Paulk<2bpaulk(at)gmail.com> wrote: =C2- I was wondering how many others on this list are having trouble rec eiving their emails by a server other than G-Mail. Comcast has been intermi ttent and I am now not receiving them at all.=C2- I have spent several ho urs on the phone and had several case numbers assigned to no avail. Matt re commended G-mail and I have not had any problems since changing over but wo uld like to keep it all in one server. I am not sure that Comcast even deli vered this notice back to this list.Thanks for any information you can prov ide.Bobby ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John M Tipton <john(at)tipton.me.uk>
Subject: Re: E-mail
Date: Jan 11, 2020
That explains why I have to go to my =98junk=99 mail box to coll ect most of my emails from the forum John (UK) Sent from my iPad ----x--O--x---- > On 11 Jan 2020, at 1:48 pm, Art Zemon wrote: > > =EF=BB > Bobby, > > I ran mailing list servers similar to what the AeroElectric list uses for o ver 30 years. The problem is that the Matronics server is incorrectly handli ng the SMTP headers. It is using a technique which was OK a decade ago but i s now considered to be spoofing (a polite way of saying "forging") the ident ity of the sender. Because of this, most email systems consider messages com ing from the AeroElectric list to be spam. > > This is what a message looks like in Gmail: > > > > > At least Gmail delivers the messages (most of the time). Comcast is probab ly dumping them into the spam bucket. > > You cannot fix this. The fix has to be done by the folks who run the maili ng list server. > > -- Art Z. > > >> On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 6:57 AM Robert Paulk <2bpaulk(at)gmail.com> wrote: >> I was wondering how many others on this list are having trouble receivi ng their emails by a server other than G-Mail. Comcast has been intermittent and I am now not receiving them at all. I have spent several hours on the p hone and had several case numbers assigned to no avail. Matt recommended G-m ail and I have not had any problems since changing over but would like to ke ep it all in one server. I am not sure that Comcast even delivered this noti ce back to this list. >> Thanks for any information you can provide. >> Bobby > > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 11, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Lithium BMS and 'load-dump' worries
At 06:13 PM 1/10/2020, you wrote: > >There are also a lot of us running PM alternators and there are a >lot of them on rotax engines. Most of those regulators are not terribly robust. >I permanently failed a 20 amp oem John Deere Rectifier/Regulator >just by idling the engine with a flat battery. Yes I knew better >but... Anyway the voltage immediately went high enough to trip the >crowbar OVM. With an EFI engine I will be staying with VRLA >batteries and no BMS for the time being despite the extra weight. >Ken This has the 'smell' of a regulator failure unrelated to type of battery or power generation device. What was the time interval for 'immediate'? If a matter of seconds or a couple minutes, then I would infer that the battery was soggy . . . i.e. not accepting what the alternator was capable of delivering. The alternator/regulator combination is inherently current limited under ANY condition. Hence, if the available current pushed battery voltage above 16v in a short period of time, the battery was some combination of soggy (worn out) or already charged. I'm not reading anything in your narrative that suggests a short-term transient (load dump) event or battery disconnect. I can deduce no reason to suspect that battery technology choices would have produced a different outcome. Run of the mill, regulators for PM alternators are notoriously weak in their design, particularly with thermal management. With no more data than what's provided, I'm inclined to call this an one-of failure of the regulator. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: E-mail
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 11, 2020
I get the list via individual emails (gmail address), and almost never have issues getting them without errors. Occasionally, I'll find Matronics emails in my spam/junk folders, but they'll typically be from a particular thread, so I've assumed that it was triggered by a subject line that the spam filters saw as suspicious. Perhaps the notification emails for those who subscribed through the forum are the issue? I monitor the Vans Air Force forum, and that forum's notification emails have triggered gmail's spoofing filters for *years*. Charlie On 1/11/2020 9:10 AM, John M Tipton wrote: > That explains why I have to go to my junk mail box to collect most > of my emails from the forum > > John (UK) > > Sent from my iPad > > ----x--O--x---- > >> On 11 Jan 2020, at 1:48 pm, Art Zemon wrote: >> >> >> Bobby, >> >> I ran mailing list servers similar to what the AeroElectric list uses >> for over 30 years. The problem is that the Matronics server is >> incorrectly handling the SMTP headers. It is using a technique which >> was OK a decade ago but is now considered to be spoofing (a polite >> way of saying "forging") the identity of the sender. Because of this, >> most email systems consider messages coming from the AeroElectric >> list to be spam. >> >> This is what a message looks like in Gmail: >> >> >> >> >> At least Gmail deliversthe messages (most of the time). Comcast is >> probably dumping them into the spam bucket. >> >> You cannot fix this. The fix has to be done by the folks who run the >> mailing list server. >> >> -- Art Z. >> >> >> On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 6:57 AM Robert Paulk <2bpaulk(at)gmail.com >> > wrote: >> >> I was wondering how many others on this list are having trouble >> receiving their emails by a server other than G-Mail. Comcast has >> been intermittent and I am now not receiving them at all. I have >> spent several hours on the phone and had several case numbers >> assigned to no avail. Matt recommended G-mail and I have not had >> any problems since changing over but would like to keep it all in >> one server. I am not sure that Comcast even delivered this notice >> back to this list. >> Thanks for any information you can provide. >> Bobby >> >> >> >> -- >> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >> >> /Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. /Deut. >> 10:19 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Lithium BMS and 'load-dump' worries
From: "eschlanser" <eschlanser(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 11, 2020
Bob, You wrote, If it were my airplane and I was flying an internally regulated alternator of unknown pedigree, I'd install Z-24 and refrain from operating the alternator ON/OFF switch at high rpm and high alternator loads. In this case, loss of BMS (or contactor) under optimally unhappy conditions MIGHT take out the regulator. I have wired an unmodified, internally regulated Nippondenso 40 amp alternator in my single AGM Odessey PC680 battery, two alternator, modified Z-13/8 system. I used Z-24 as a guide but with a Perhelion L-OVP module. On start-up, I switch the battery on with both alternators off and push the start switch. After the engine starts, I switch the ND alternator on. On occasion, I have forgotten to switch the alternator on and took off. A few minutes later, on climb out with high rpm, I noticed the voltage dropping. Upon troubleshooting, I realized the alternator was off. I didnt think twice, and switched the alternator on. I had no idea this sequence was at some risk to the regulator. Or was it? Would it be a risk to a lithium battery BMS? Eric S. South Haven, MI Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494239#494239 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Pat Little <roughleg(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 11, 2020
Subject: Re: E-mail
I have set up a filter in gmail to not put into spam any messages from the aeroelectric list. So they all go into my inbox, but Google sometimes adds a note at the top of a message saying it would have gone into the spam folder except that I had the filter in place to keep it out. It looks like this [image: image.png] Here's what the filter looks like, if anybody wants to do the same: [image: image.png] and to set it up here is the first step: [image: image.png] and here is the second: [image: image.png] On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 11:56 AM Charlie England wrote: > I get the list via individual emails (gmail address), and almost never > have issues getting them without errors. Occasionally, I'll find Matronic s > emails in my spam/junk folders, but they'll typically be from a particula r > thread, so I've assumed that it was triggered by a subject line that the > spam filters saw as suspicious. > > Perhaps the notification emails for those who subscribed through the foru m > are the issue? I monitor the Vans Air Force forum, and that forum's > notification emails have triggered gmail's spoofing filters for *years*. > > Charlie > > On 1/11/2020 9:10 AM, John M Tipton wrote: > > That explains why I have to go to my =98junk=99 mail box to c ollect most of my > emails from the forum > > John (UK) > > Sent from my iPad > > ----x--O--x---- > > On 11 Jan 2020, at 1:48 pm, Art Zemon > wrote: > > =EF=BB > Bobby, > > I ran mailing list servers similar to what the AeroElectric list uses for > over 30 years. The problem is that the Matronics server is incorrectly > handling the SMTP headers. It is using a technique which was OK a decade > ago but is now considered to be spoofing (a polite way of saying "forging ") > the identity of the sender. Because of this, most email systems consider > messages coming from the AeroElectric list to be spam. > > This is what a message looks like in Gmail: > > > > > At least Gmail delivers the messages (most of the time). Comcast is > probably dumping them into the spam bucket. > > You cannot fix this. The fix has to be done by the folks who run the > mailing list server. > > -- Art Z. > > > On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 6:57 AM Robert Paulk <2bpaulk(at)gmail.com> wrote: > >> I was wondering how many others on this list are having trouble >> receiving their emails by a server other than G-Mail. Comcast has been >> intermittent and I am now not receiving them at all. I have spent sever al >> hours on the phone and had several case numbers assigned to no avail. Ma tt >> recommended G-mail and I have not had any problems since changing over b ut >> would like to keep it all in one server. I am not sure that Comcast even >> delivered this notice back to this list. >> Thanks for any information you can provide. >> Bobby >> > > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. *Deut. > 10:19 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 11, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Lithium BMS and 'load-dump' worries
> I have wired an unmodified, internally > regulated Nippondenso 40 amp alternator in my > single AGM Odessey PC680 battery, two > alternator, modified Z-13/8 system. I used Z-24 > as a guide but with a Perhelion L-OVP module. > On start-up, I switch the battery on with both > alternators off and push the start switch. > After the engine starts, I switch the ND alternator on. > On occasion, I have forgotten to switch the > alternator on and took off. A few minutes > later, on climb out with high rpm, I noticed > the voltage dropping. Upon troubleshooting, I > realized the alternator was off. I didn=99t > think twice, and switched the alternator on. I > had no idea this sequence was at some risk to the regulator. Or was it? It is not . . > Would it be a risk to a lithium battery BMS? No . . . You can generally turn an alternator on/off at any time without risk to ship's hardware. Z-24 (b-lead dis-connector) offers some risk to an INTERNAL regulator IF the alternator is shut off at higher than idle rpm AND the alternator is heavily loaded (probably recharging the battery -AND- grunting ship's loads). One COULD deliberately create a load-dump event into the ship's systems by turning of the battery . . . again while the battery is heavily loaded. This is POSSIBLE in ships like Barons and Bonanzas where alternator and battery switches are not interlinked and alternator only ops are permitted. However, the regulators I designed for the Beech ships were pretty docile for gross load dump . . . I don't recall the figures now (that was about 1978). I do recall that the dump-transient did not exceed DO160/MIL-STD-704 limits - that was a design goal imperative. Load dump risks are limited to UNLOADING an alternator . . . not turning it on/off (EXCEPT where Z-24 DOES unload an internally regulated alternator placing ONLY the internal regulator at risk . . . if at all). ALL Z-figures recommend progressive transfer, two-pole switches for OFF/BAT/ BAT+ALT making it impossible to deliberately or inadvertently initiate a load-dump event. The suggested protocol for turning the alternator on/off just after engine start and just before shut down has to do with an orderly organization of check list that ALSO happens to be Z-24 friendly. Load-dumps are something of a wil-o'-the-whisp (swamp gas). You gotta work to create one and 99% of the time they are harmless when they do occur. BTW . . . I don't think PM rectifier/regulators are even capable of creating a significant load dump transient. They use a cycle-by-cycle conduction control philosophy that does not present gain/phase issues present in the wound field system. Whether or not the battery is fitted with a BMS isn't a component of the load-dump scenario. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 11, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Lithium BMS and 'load-dump' worries (CORRECTION)
> I have wired an unmodified, internally > regulated Nippondenso 40 amp alternator in my > single AGM Odessey PC680 battery, two > alternator, modified Z-13/8 system. I used Z-24 > as a guide but with a Perhelion L-OVP module. > On start-up, I switch the battery on with both > alternators off and push the start switch. > After the engine starts, I switch the ND alternator on. > On occasion, I have forgotten to switch the > alternator on and took off. A few minutes > later, on climb out with high rpm, I noticed > the voltage dropping. Upon troubleshooting, I > realized the alternator was off. I didn=99t > think twice, and switched the alternator on. I > had no idea this sequence was at some risk to the regulator. Or was it? It is not . . > Would it be a risk to a lithium battery BMS? No . . . You can generally turn an alternator on/off at any time without risk to ship's hardware. Z-24 (b-lead dis-connector) offers some risk to an INTERNAL regulator IF the alternator is shut off at higher than idle rpm AND the alternator is heavily loaded (probably recharging the battery -AND- grunting ship's loads). One COULD deliberately create a load-dump event into the ship's systems by turning of the battery . . . again while the ALTERNATOR(S) is/are heavily loaded. This is POSSIBLE in ships like Barons and Bonanzas where alternator and battery switches are not interlinked and alternator only ops are permitted. However, the regulators I designed for the Beech ships were pretty docile for gross load dump . . . I don't recall the figures now (that was about 1978). I do recall that the dump-transient did not exceed DO160/MIL-STD-704 limits - that was a design goal imperative. Load dump risks are limited to UNLOADING an alternator . . . not turning it on/off (EXCEPT where Z-24 DOES unload an internally regulated alternator placing ONLY the internal regulator at risk . . . if at all). ALL Z-figures recommend progressive transfer, two-pole switches for OFF/BAT/ BAT+ALT making it impossible to deliberately or inadvertently initiate a load-dump event. The suggested protocol for turning the alternator on/off just after engine start and just before shut down has to do with an orderly organization of check list that ALSO happens to be Z-24 friendly. Load-dumps are something of a wil-o'-the-whisp (swamp gas). You gotta work to create one and 99% of the time they are harmless when they do occur. BTW . . . I don't think PM rectifier/regulators are even capable of creating a significant load dump transient. They use a cycle-by-cycle conduction control philosophy that does not present gain/phase issues present in the wound field system. Whether or not the battery is fitted with a BMS isn't a component of the load-dump scenario. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2020
Subject: Re: E-mail
I did the same thing for VAF forum *notifications*, and get the same result in the notification emails. But have never had that issue (what Art describes) with individual emails from any Matronics list where I'm a member. If you communicate with Matt about the problem, be sure to tell him how you read the list. Charlie On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 7:13 PM Pat Little wrote: > I have set up a filter in gmail to not put into spam any messages from th e > aeroelectric list. So they all go into my inbox, but Google sometimes add s > a note at the top of a message saying it would have gone into the spam > folder except that I had the filter in place to keep it out. It looks lik e > this > [image: image.png] > Here's what the filter looks like, if anybody wants to do the same: > [image: image.png] > and to set it up here is the first step: > [image: image.png] > and here is the second: > [image: image.png] > > > On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 11:56 AM Charlie England > wrote: > >> I get the list via individual emails (gmail address), and almost never >> have issues getting them without errors. Occasionally, I'll find Matroni cs >> emails in my spam/junk folders, but they'll typically be from a particul ar >> thread, so I've assumed that it was triggered by a subject line that the >> spam filters saw as suspicious. >> >> Perhaps the notification emails for those who subscribed through the >> forum are the issue? I monitor the Vans Air Force forum, and that forum' s >> notification emails have triggered gmail's spoofing filters for *years*. >> >> Charlie >> >> On 1/11/2020 9:10 AM, John M Tipton wrote: >> >> That explains why I have to go to my =98junk=99 mail box to collect most of >> my emails from the forum >> >> John (UK) >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> ----x--O--x---- >> >> On 11 Jan 2020, at 1:48 pm, Art Zemon >> wrote: >> >> =EF=BB >> Bobby, >> >> I ran mailing list servers similar to what the AeroElectric list uses fo r >> over 30 years. The problem is that the Matronics server is incorrectly >> handling the SMTP headers. It is using a technique which was OK a decade >> ago but is now considered to be spoofing (a polite way of saying "forgin g") >> the identity of the sender. Because of this, most email systems consider >> messages coming from the AeroElectric list to be spam. >> >> This is what a message looks like in Gmail: >> >> >> >> >> At least Gmail delivers the messages (most of the time). Comcast is >> probably dumping them into the spam bucket. >> >> You cannot fix this. The fix has to be done by the folks who run the >> mailing list server. >> >> -- Art Z. >> >> >> On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 6:57 AM Robert Paulk <2bpaulk(at)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I was wondering how many others on this list are having trouble >>> receiving their emails by a server other than G-Mail. Comcast has been >>> intermittent and I am now not receiving them at all. I have spent seve ral >>> hours on the phone and had several case numbers assigned to no avail. M att >>> recommended G-mail and I have not had any problems since changing over but >>> would like to keep it all in one server. I am not sure that Comcast eve n >>> delivered this notice back to this list. >>> Thanks for any information you can provide. >>> Bobby >>> >> >> >> -- >> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >> >> *Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. *Deut. >> 10:19 >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robert Paulk <2bpaulk(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2020
Subject: E-mail
Art Thanks you very much for the info. I have since talked to a Comcast representative after e-mailing them my displeasure. He said the same thing as you, that it was the sender's fault for us not receiving our email. If you get a chance would you to mention it to Matt and if not to much trouble maybe he could fix it. Thanks again, "Analog guy in a digital world" ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: E-mail
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2020
On 1/12/2020 9:47 AM, Robert Paulk wrote: > Art > Thanks you very much for the info. > I have since talked to a Comcast representative after e-mailing them > my displeasure. > He said the same thing as you, that it was the sender's fault for us > not receiving our email. > If you get a chance would you to mention it to Matt and if not to much > trouble maybe he could fix it. > > Thanks again, > > "Analog guy in a digital world" Do I detect a Guy Clark fan? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Jan 12, 2020
Subject: Re: E-mail
I have emailed Matt several times over the last few years about the mailing list servers he runs. He has never replied. -- Art Z. Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos. On Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 10:06 AM Robert Paulk <2bpaulk(at)gmail.com> wrote: > Art > Thanks you very much for the info. > I have since talked to a Comcast representative after e-mailing them my > displeasure. > He said the same thing as you, that it was the sender's fault for us not > receiving our email. > If you get a chance would you to mention it to Matt and if not to much > trouble maybe he could fix it. > > Thanks again, > > "Analog guy in a digital world" > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: E-mail
From: "BobD" <rjdawson14(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 13, 2020
Thanks for the suggestions. After reading them, I changed my e-mail address in my profile to a Gmail one, and this appears to work. As stated, I think the original problem is with the Matronics Server, and like many things in IT, the solution I have applied is not a fix, but a workaround. Just a note of caution for anyone changing their e-mail address on here, be aware that this action locks you out, and you cannot log back in until a "release" e-mail is received from Matronics Admin. My release arrived about 8 hours later, so no big deal, unless you plan to make some immediate posts. -------- Bob Dawson Europa XS TG || 912 ULS || G-NHRJ || Dynon Skyview || PilotAware || SmartAss3 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494261#494261 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: contact call support
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Date: Jan 13, 2020
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Subject: Re: contact call support
From: "pallaviparker" <pallaviparker123(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 13, 2020
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From: William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 13, 2020
Subject: Fiberglass Airplane Static Discharge
Greetings, One of the builders in our fiberglass airplane community experienced an issue with his dual EFIS system when flying in a cloud layer. He reported that both ADAHRS units lost attitude reference after entering the clouds and then once the airplane went VMC the attitude reference immediately returned. After troubleshooting with the equipment maker they indicated that the presumed cause was static buildup and then the resultant discharge and that is what confused the two units. Since having dual EFIS systems fail in IMC is not considered to be industry best practice I was wondering if you all can help come up with a solution and also help me understand more about the issue. My airplane is already built so installing fine copper mesh in the fiberglass panels and installing static dischargers is not an option at this time. Specifically the design of the airplane is the typical Rutan foam core sandwich with fiberglass bidirectional weave outer surfaces ...almost no carbon fiber is in the structure. On my airplane all of the avionics units are mounted on a common aluminum rack so I was wondering if bonding the aluminum rack to a static discharger might help with reducing the static energy surrounding the avionics units themselves albeit the fiberglass airplane surfaces would all still be isolated from the radio rack and the static discharger. Perhaps an aluminum Faraday cage around the unit would help??? Thanks, Bill Hunter On Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 03:45 Charlie England wrote: > On 12/30/2019 4:56 PM, billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com wrote: > > Happy New Years Eve Greetings!!! > > I was hoping for advice on how to fix a low audio problem I am having wit h > the audio input to the SL-15 in my airplane. > > Specifically, I connect my =9Csmart=9D phone to the 1/8 inch audio input jack > of my SL-15 and I can just barely hear my crazy [party affiliation > redacted] political talk show that is playing from my telephone. The aud io > is indeed playing however the volume is reallyreally low. Even though my > wife is super happy with this setup I would like to fix if for those real ly > rare times when I allow her to play her media we can actually hear it ove r > the continuous loud droning in the cabin (the airplane itself is very > quiet). > > If I unplug the cable connecting my phone to the ships audio input jack > and then insert my earbud headphones into the phone my political talk sho w > volume comes in loud, obnoxious, and opinionated as I expect so I have > confirmed that the phone output audio is working. I can hear the aircraf t > radio as expected. > > I have soldered up the audio jack as depicted in the wire harness diagram > below and I am using a four conductor patch cable to connect the phone to > the ships input jack. Could this be the problem as I am mix matching > stereo and mono connectors? > > Here is a wire diagram of the SL-15 bottom connector. > > Any help (as usual) would be most appreciated!!! > > Hi Bill, > > I see two possibilities. One is that you wired it correctly, but the audi o > panel is expecting a much higher level than the phone's headphone jack is > capable of providing. (This is a strong probability.) Look at the audio > panel's specs to see what level it wants on the music input, and then loo k > at the phone's specs to see the max output from the headphone jack. If yo u > need help translating dB to volts, etc, shoot us a followup email. > > Another possibility is, as you mentioned, a miswired cable. You said you > used a 4 wire cable. Note that there are only 3 possibilities at the audi o > panel. If the cable has a 4 terminal plug at the audio panel, it's entire ly > possible that the right channel pin in the audio panel connector could be > hitting both the R ring and the ground ring. You may need something with > the 4 conductor plug on one end, and a 3 conductor plug at the audio pane l. > Unfortunately, a quick stroll through 'the google' didn't turn one up... > > Charlie > [image: Image result for cell phone headphone connector diagram"] > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Safety For Electrical System Workers Essay
From: "Verolla" <annykey86(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 13, 2020
Yes, absolutely any topic can be chosen for writing an essay. If you have difficulties with paperwork, then it makes sense to pay attention to the academic writing service (https://www.superiorpapers.com/) and ask for help. This will allow you not to get stuck for a long time in paperwork and always have good grades. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494269#494269 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charles Brame <chasb(at)satx.rr.com>
Subject: Mailing list
Date: Jan 13, 2020
Bob, et. al., I=99ve had computer problems and somehow have lost my =9CConnection.=9D I=99m no longer getting the daily AeroElectric List digest. If possible, please reinstate my =9CConnection.=9D Charlie Brame RV-6A, N11CB (still flying.) San Antonio, TX email: chasb(at)satx.rr.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: David Clark Stereo wiring
From: "John M Tipton" <johntiptonuk(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Jan 14, 2020
Hi Guys Where can I find the wiring diagram for a DC stereo headset, the small dia. plug has tip, two rings and the barrel, I have the corresponding panel socket (three contacts plus barrel, I need schematic for the socket wiring. John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494277#494277 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 14, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: David Clark Stereo wiring
At 10:11 AM 1/14/2020, you wrote: > > >Hi Guys > >Where can I find the wiring diagram for a DC stereo headset, the >small dia. plug has tip, two rings and the barrel, I have the >corresponding panel socket (three contacts plus barrel, I need >schematic for the socket wiring. > >John > What is the model number of the headset? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 14, 2020
Subject: Re: David Clark Stereo wiring
See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/micjack/micjack.html > On Jan 14, 2020, at 8:11 AM, John M Tipton wrot e: > > Hi Guys > > Where can I find the wiring diagram for a DC stereo headset, the small dia . plug has tip, two rings and the barrel, I have the corresponding panel soc ket (three contacts plus barrel, I need schematic for the socket wiring. > > John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John M Tipton <john(at)tipton.me.uk>
Subject: Re: David Clark Stereo wiring
Date: Jan 14, 2020
H10-13.4 & H10-13X, the radio/com is a Trig TY96 John Sent from my iPad ----x--O--x---- > On 14 Jan 2020, at 4:57 pm, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelec tric.com> wrote: > > =EF=BB At 10:11 AM 1/14/2020, you wrote: tmail.com> >> >> Hi Guys >> >> Where can I find the wiring diagram for a DC stereo headset, the small di a. plug has tip, two rings and the barrel, I have the corresponding panel so cket (three contacts plus barrel, I need schematic for the socket wiring. >> >> John >> > > > What is the model number of the headset? > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John M Tipton <john(at)tipton.me.uk>
Subject: Re: David Clark Stereo wiring
Date: Jan 14, 2020
Unless I=99m missing something Eric, that circuit is relating to a =98Mike=99 and PTT circuit, nothing to do with a stereo headphone. John Sent from my iPad ----x--O--x---- > On 14 Jan 2020, at 5:22 pm, Eric Page wrote: > > =EF=BB > See: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/micjack/micjack.html > > >> On Jan 14, 2020, at 8:11 AM, John M Tipton wro te: >> >> Hi Guys >> >> Where can I find the wiring diagram for a DC stereo headset, the small di a. plug has tip, two rings and the barrel, I have the corresponding panel so cket (three contacts plus barrel, I need schematic for the socket wiring. >> >> John ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: David Clark Stereo wiring
From: "John M Tipton" <johntiptonuk(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Jan 14, 2020
Sorry guys, I've got this completely wrong way round on the Mike/Headphone situation: so Question, how do I wire up the 1/4" plug for stereo John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494285#494285 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: David Clark Stereo wiring
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 14, 2020
On 1/14/2020 1:09 PM, John M Tipton wrote: > > Sorry guys, > > I've got this completely wrong way round on the Mike/Headphone situation: so Question, how do I wire up the 1/4" plug for stereo > > John > > Image result for stereo headphone wiring Above is standard stereo wiring for a 1/4" phone plug. Wiring terminals on the mating jack is kinda tricky to describe, but not complicated. For a novice, the easiest way to ID the terminals is to insert a stereo plug (see above) into the jack, and use an ohm meter to ID continuity from each terminal on the plug, to each terminal on the jack. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 14, 2020
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: David Clark Stereo wiring
Sorry about that, John.=C2- When you wrote "small diameter plug" and "tw o rings," I thought you were talking about the mic plug.=C2- The industry standard mic plug is a 4-conductor TRRS plug of 0.206" diameter (p/n PJ-06 8), while the headphone is a 3-conductor TRS plug of 0.25" diameter (p/n PJ -055). According to their data sheets... http://www.davidclarkcompany.com/files/literature/10-13.4.pdf andhttp://www.davidclarkcompany.com/files/literature/H10-13X.pdf ...both of your headsets use the standard 1/4" PJ-055 stereo headphone plug .=C2- As for which contact is left and which is right, perhaps Bob knows the standard in aviation.=C2- Internet searching produces plenty of image s, some showing tip=left and ring=right, others showing the opposite. =C2- The only consistent feature is ground=sleeve. A quick experiment will quickly reveal which way your headsets are wired. =C2- With the headset over your ears, hold the negative side of a 1.5V ba ttery (coin, AA, AAA) to the sleeve and use a wire connected to the positiv e side to alternately tap the tip and ring of the headset's plug.=C2- You 'll know from the static which contact is which.=C2- Using this test, my Clarity Aloft is wired tip=left and ring=right. Eric on.me.uk> wrote: Unless I=99m missing something Eric, that circuit is relating to a =98Mike=99 and PTT circuit, nothing to do with a stereo headpho ne. John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John M Tipton <john(at)tipton.me.uk>
Subject: Re: David Clark Stereo wiring
Date: Jan 14, 2020
Thank you, that clarifies it John Sent from my iPad ----x--O--x---- > On 14 Jan 2020, at 8:16 pm, Eric Page wrote: > > =EF=BB > Sorry about that, John. When you wrote "small diameter plug" and "two rin gs," I thought you were talking about the mic plug. The industry standard m ic plug is a 4-conductor TRRS plug of 0.206" diameter (p/n PJ-068), while th e headphone is a 3-conductor TRS plug of 0.25" diameter (p/n PJ-055). > > According to their data sheets... > > http://www.davidclarkcompany.com/files/literature/10-13.4.pdf > and > http://www.davidclarkcompany.com/files/literature/H10-13X.pdf > > ...both of your headsets use the standard 1/4" PJ-055 stereo headphone plu g. As for which contact is left and which is right, perhaps Bob knows the s tandard in aviation. Internet searching produces plenty of images, some sho wing tip=left and ring=right, others showing the opposite. The only con sistent feature is ground=sleeve. > > A quick experiment will quickly reveal which way your headsets are wired. With the headset over your ears, hold the negative side of a 1.5V battery ( coin, AA, AAA) to the sleeve and use a wire connected to the positive side t o alternately tap the tip and ring of the headset's plug. You'll know from t he static which contact is which. Using this test, my Clarity Aloft is wire d tip=left and ring=right. > > Eric > > me.uk> wrote: > > Unless I=99m missing something Eric, that circuit is relating to a =98Mike=99 and PTT circuit, nothing to do with a stereo headphone. > > John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Jan 14, 2020
Subject: How to Install Amphenol Connex 122430
Help! I bought a 90-degree TNC connector from Aircraft Spruce. It's an Amphenol Connex 122430 https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/amphenol11-15368.php and https://www.amphenolrf.com/122430-10.html Amphenol's page says that the "contact termination style" is "solder." From the way that the connector is built, it is clear to me that I should solder the center conductor. No problem. My question: Should I also solder the shield in some way and, if so, how? Or is crimping that sufficient? We have one afternoon of warm weather tomorrow so I plan to head out to the airport and finish installing my Garmin GPS 175. Thanks, -- Art Z. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. *Deut. 10:19 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: How to Install Amphenol Connex 122430
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 14, 2020
On 1/14/2020 9:44 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > Help! > > I bought a 90-degree TNC connector from Aircraft Spruce. It's an > Amphenol Connex 122430 > https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/amphenol11-15368.php > and > https://www.amphenolrf.com/122430-10.html > > Amphenol's page says that the "contact termination style" is "solder." > From the way that the connector is built, it is clear to me that I > should solder the center conductor. No problem. > > My question: Should I also solder the shield in some way and, if so, > how? Or is crimping that sufficient? > > We have one afternoon of warm weather tomorrow so I plan to head out > to the airport and finish installing my Garmin GPS 175. > > Thanks, > -- Art Z. > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > /Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. /Deut. > 10:19 That style connector expects that the barrel in the left of the pic will be placed over the coax prior to stripping and soldering. The outer insulation and braid shield should be cut back just enough to allow the center conductor to just reach the center pin in the connector. The center insulator should be trimmed just enough to allow the center conductor to reach the center pin. The knurled barrel pointed left in the pic will be inserted between the coax center insulation and shield, and after soldering the center conductor to the center pin, the outer barrel is slid down against the body of the connector and crimped. The ground connection is made between the knurled surface (mentioned earlier) and the shield braid. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Jan 15, 2020
Subject: Re: How to Install Amphenol Connex 122430
Thanks, Charlie. I can do that. -- Art Z. On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 10:27 PM Charlie England wrote: > On 1/14/2020 9:44 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > > Help! > > I bought a 90-degree TNC connector from Aircraft Spruce. It's an Amphenol > Connex 122430 > https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/amphenol11-15368.php > and > https://www.amphenolrf.com/122430-10.html > > Amphenol's page says that the "contact termination style" is "solder." > From the way that the connector is built, it is clear to me that I should > solder the center conductor. No problem. > > My question: Should I also solder the shield in some way and, if so, how? > Or is crimping that sufficient? > > We have one afternoon of warm weather tomorrow so I plan to head out to > the airport and finish installing my Garmin GPS 175. > > Thanks, > -- Art Z. > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. *Deut. > 10:19 > > That style connector expects that the barrel in the left of the pic will > be placed over the coax prior to stripping and soldering. The outer > insulation and braid shield should be cut back just enough to allow the > center conductor to just reach the center pin in the connector. The center > insulator should be trimmed just enough to allow the center conductor to > reach the center pin. The knurled barrel pointed left in the pic will be > inserted between the coax center insulation and shield, and after soldering > the center conductor to the center pin, the outer barrel is slid down > against the body of the connector and crimped. The ground connection is > made between the knurled surface (mentioned earlier) and the shield braid. > > -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. *Deut. 10:19 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 15, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: How to Install Amphenol Connex 122430
At 09:44 PM 1/14/2020, you wrote: >Help! > >I bought a 90-degree TNC connector from Aircraft Spruce. It's an >Amphenol Connex 122430 >https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/amphenol11-15368.php >and >https://www.amphenolrf.com/122430-10.html > >Amphenol's page says that the "contact termination style" is >"solder." From the way that the connector is built, it is clear to >me that I should solder the center conductor. No problem. Yes, the crimp style, right angle connectors are unique in that one connection (center conductor) is soldered. >My question: Should I also solder the shield in some way and, if so, >how? Or is crimping that sufficient? The shield is crimped with a process and tools common to the series. >We have one afternoon of warm weather tomorrow so I plan to head out >to the airport and finish installing my Garmin GPS 175. That is a crimped shield. It uses the same tools as the straight connector. For the .195" coax cables (RG58/141/142/400/LMR195) you need a crimp tool with a .213" hex die. Installation of a two-crimp connector is illustrated here: https://tinyurl.com/shkj3j4 Optimal stripping dimensions for that connector are given on the customer data sheet: https://www.amphenolrf.com/downloads/dl/file/id/1510/product/4284/122430_10_customer_drawing.pdf Striping is really easy with the right tool: https://tinyurl.com/j6ghop2 I did a quick look-see on youtube for a good video on this topic. They range from barely informative to outright wrong . . . I guess I need to get into the video business . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Jan 15, 2020
Subject: Re: How to Install Amphenol Connex 122430
Bob, No worries. I can handle the details of stipping and soldering and crimping. I just wanted confirmation that I only needed to crimp the shield. Cheers, -- Art Z. On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 10:35 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 09:44 PM 1/14/2020, you wrote: > > Help! > > I bought a 90-degree TNC connector from Aircraft Spruce. It's an Amphenol > Connex 122430 > https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/amphenol11-15368.php > and > https://www.amphenolrf.com/122430-10.html > > Amphenol's page says that the "contact termination style" is "solder." > From the way that the connector is built, it is clear to me that I should > solder the center conductor. No problem. > > > Yes, the crimp style, right angle connectors > are unique in that one connection (center conductor) > is soldered. > > My question: Should I also solder the shield in some way and, if so, how? > Or is crimping that sufficient? > > > The shield is crimped with a process > and tools common to the series. > > > We have one afternoon of warm weather tomorrow so I plan to head out to > the airport and finish installing my Garmin GPS 175. > > > That is a crimped shield. It uses the same tools > as the straight connector. For the .195" coax > cables (RG58/141/142/400/LMR195) you need a crimp > tool with a .213" hex die. Installation of a two-crimp > connector is illustrated here: > > https://tinyurl.com/shkj3j4 > > Optimal stripping dimensions for that connector > are given on the customer data sheet: > > > https://www.amphenolrf.com/downloads/dl/file/id/1510/product/4284/122430_10_customer_drawing.pdf > > Striping is really easy with the right tool: > > https://tinyurl.com/j6ghop2 > > I did a quick look-see on youtube for a good > video on this topic. They range from barely > informative to outright wrong . . . I guess > I need to get into the video business . . . > > > Bob . . . > -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. *Deut. 10:19 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 15, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: How to Install Amphenol Connex 122430
At 11:07 AM 1/15/2020, you wrote: >Bob, > >No worries. I can handle the details of stipping and soldering and >crimping. I just wanted confirmation that I only needed to crimp the shield. > >Cheers, Good on you my friend . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: thermocouple calibration
From: "KatoGilliam" <shery32(at)getnada.com>
Date: Jan 16, 2020
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Date: Jan 16, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: High intensity LEDs
I mentioned availability of some high intensity LED lamps a few weeks ago. I think I had two requests . . . need a repeat on those requests . . . I found the lamps. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 17, 2020
From: Charles Kuss <chaskuss(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: High intensity LEDs
Bob, I was not one of the original requesters but I certainly interested in high intensity LED bulbs. Charlie Kuss Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 7:08 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III<nuckolls.bob@aer Nuckolls, III" I mentioned availability of some high intensity LED lamps a few weeks ago. I think I had two requests . . . need a repeat on those requests . . . I found the lamps. =C2- Bob . . . =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - S - WIKI - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: High intensity LEDs
From: "markfw" <markwheelermd(at)icloud.com>
Date: Jan 16, 2020
Bob, I was one of the original respondents. I need 2 red high intensity LEDs. I will be using one with a B&C voltage regulator and the other is a spare in case I screw up the install :). My address is: 1009 Western Ave #1207 Seattle, WA 9810 Thank you. Mark Wheeler Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494313#494313 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 16, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: High intensity LEDs
I mentioned availability of some high intensity LED lamps a few weeks ago. I think I had two requests . . . need a repeat on those requests . . . I found the lamps. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Earl Schroeder <n233ee(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: High intensity LEDs
Date: Jan 17, 2020
Hi Bob, I missed the original offer but if it still stands, I am interested. Earl > On Jan 16, 2020, at 7:52 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > I mentioned availability of some high > intensity LED lamps a few weeks ago. I think > I had two requests . . . need a repeat on > those requests . . . I found the lamps. > > > Bob . . . > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Date: Jan 19, 2020
Subject: External socket to charge the airplane batteries
Guys In my RV-10 both batteries (main Batt - Odissey PC-925, and Aux Batt - Odiss ey PC-680) are in the back, inside the tail cone, behind the baggage compart ment. This is a difficult place to reach, in the completed airplane, to connect th e clamps of a battery charger/maintainer. Therefore I am going to install an external socket like this in the airplane skin, to be easy to connect the charger from the outside. I am thinking in connecting both batteries to this socket through a SPDT swi tch, to be able to select which battery to be charged. Now the questions: 1 - which is the current flowing through this socket when charging? 2 - consequently, which gauge of wires should be used (#18)? 3 - should I use any fuse in this circuit? If yes, which A? 4 - is there any possibility to charge both batteries at the same time? If yes, which is the smart way to achieve that? Thanks in advance Carlos ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: External socket to charge the airplane batteries
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 19, 2020
On 1/19/2020 12:46 PM, Carlos Trigo wrote: > Guys > > In my RV-10 both batteries (main Batt - Odissey PC-925, and Aux Batt - Odissey PC-680) are in the back, inside the tail cone, behind the baggage compartment. > This is a difficult place to reach, in the completed airplane, to connect the clamps of a battery charger/maintainer. > > Therefore I am going to install an external socket like this > > > in the airplane skin, to be easy to connect the charger from the outside. > > I am thinking in connecting both batteries to this socket through a SPDT switch, to be able to select which battery to be charged. > > Now the questions: > 1 - which is the current flowing through this socket when charging? > 2 - consequently, which gauge of wires should be used (#18)? > 3 - should I use any fuse in this circuit? If yes, which A? > 4 - is there any possibility to charge both batteries at the same time? If yes, which is the smart way to achieve that? > > Thanks in advance > Carlos > > Charge current will be determined by the state of discharge of the battery, and limited by the capacity of the charger. A depleted battery connected to a 12A charger could easily draw the entire 12A available from the charger. Hook it to a 50A charger and.... Wire gauge should be determined by the voltage drop and heat rise you're willing to tolerate, within the limits of the wire/insulation. I'd treat fusing the same way the alternator B lead is treated: size the wire for the max charger size, and fuse at the battery end to protect it from the battery. Don't forget the risk of someone attempting to jump-start the plane using that connector. Your call on how you avoid that risk. Switches/relays could connect both batteries for charging, but realistically, how often will you need to do that? A healthy SLA battery retains over 90% of its energy for many months without any charging whatsoever. You can learn a lot about (lack of) bench charging needs by reading Odyssey's technical docs. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 19, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: External socket to charge the airplane batteries
At 12:46 PM 1/19/2020, you wrote: >Guys > >In my RV-10 both batteries (main Batt - Odissey PC-925, and Aux Batt >- Odissey PC-680) are in the back, inside the tail cone, behind the >baggage compartment. >This is a difficult place to reach, in the completed airplane, to >connect the clamps of a battery charger/maintainer. > >Therefore I am going to install an external socket like this >in the airplane skin, to be easy to connect the charger from the outside. That's an AC power connector . . . not polarized. No feature to prevent reversed connection. This is not a very environmentally robust device either. Is your airplane hangared? How about putting a goof-proof connector just inside the baggage compartment . . . leave door ajar and plug in shore-power. Connector stays out of weather. >I am thinking in connecting both batteries to this socket through a >SPDT switch, to be able to select which battery to be charged. What kind of charger? >Now the questions: > 1 - which is the current flowing through this socket when charging? Depends on charger. > 2 - consequently, which gauge of wires should be used (#18)? > 3 - should I use any fuse in this circuit? If yes, which A? > 4 - is there any possibility to charge both batteries at the same > time? If yes, which is the smart way to achieve that? The only time you need to CHARGE a battery is if you parked the airplane in a less-than- full state of charge. The only time you need to plug-in is if the airplane is going to be parked for an extended period of time. You don't need a switch, there's a way to wire a 3-terminal connector to effect battery paralleling for the purpose of MAINTAINING. But if you anticipate a need to CHARGE less than topped-off batteries, then we need to discuss the brand/model of charger. Have you published a power distribution diagram. How are these batteries wired and controlled? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 19, 2020
Subject: Re: External socket to charge the airplane batteries
Carlos I think your plan is way too complicated. My RV-10 has a fuse protected battery charging cord connected to each battery and going to the baggage compartment. If I want to charge that battery, I open the baggage door and plug into that battery. No external door, no switch. First select and purchase the charger. With many chargers you can disconnect the alligator clips and there is some sort of plug. Use the same plug on the end of the battery cable. My charger came with one free battery cable, the second one was $10. Many of these chargers use 2 prong automotive plugs which are cheap and available everywhere. On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 1:24 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 12:46 PM 1/19/2020, you wrote: > > Guys > > In my RV-10 both batteries (main Batt - Odissey PC-925, and Aux Batt - > Odissey PC-680) are in the back, inside the tail cone, behind the baggage > compartment. > This is a difficult place to reach, in the completed airplane, to connect > the clamps of a battery charger/maintainer. > > Therefore I am going to install an external socket like this > > > in the airplane skin, to be easy to connect the charger from the outside. > > > That's an AC power connector . . . not polarized. > No feature to prevent reversed connection. > This is not a very environmentally robust > device either. > > Is your airplane hangared? How about putting > a goof-proof connector just inside the baggage > compartment . . . leave door ajar and plug in > shore-power. Connector stays out of weather. > > > I am thinking in connecting both batteries to this socket through a SPDT > switch, to be able to select which battery to be charged. > > > What kind of charger? > > > Now the questions: > 1 - which is the current flowing through this socket when charging? > > > Depends on charger. > > 2 - consequently, which gauge of wires should be used (#18)? > 3 - should I use any fuse in this circuit? If yes, which A? > 4 - is there any possibility to charge both batteries at the same time? > If yes, which is the smart way to achieve that? > > > The only time you need to CHARGE a battery > is if you parked the airplane in a less-than- > full state of charge. The only time you need > to plug-in is if the airplane is going to be > parked for an extended period of time. > > You don't need a switch, there's a way > to wire a 3-terminal connector to effect > battery paralleling for the purpose of > MAINTAINING. But if you anticipate a need > to CHARGE less than topped-off batteries, > then we need to discuss the brand/model > of charger. > > Have you published a power distribution > diagram. How are these batteries wired > and controlled? > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: External socket to charge the airplane batteries
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 20, 2020
Install 2 of these, one on each battery. Fuse at 20 amps. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494362#494362 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/charger_cord_323.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 21, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: External socket to charge the airplane batteries
At 04:26 PM 1/19/2020, you wrote: >Carlos I think your plan is way too complicated. My RV-10 has a fuse >protected battery charging cord connected to each battery and going >to the baggage compartment. If I want to charge that battery, I open >the baggage door and plug into that battery. No external door, no switch. > >First select and purchase the charger. With many chargers you can >disconnect the alligator clips and there is some sort of plug. Use >the same plug on the end of the battery cable. My charger came with >one free battery cable, the second one was $10. Many of these >chargers use 2 prong automotive plugs which are cheap and available everywhere. That works! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Boyd <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 21, 2020
Subject: Re: External socket to charge the airplane batteries
Gentlemen: planning a Z-12 -based dual alternator and single battery but with both alternator outputs paralleled into the 60A shunt and eliminating the Hall effect sensor for the standby alternator B-lead. The panel builder is politely suggesting I will be happier if I keep two independent current monitoring channels in place. Please review my missive to him and see if I am overlooking anything. Thanks! >>>>>>>>>> Plan (1) - Wired using one each Shunt and Hall channels: 60A alternator is regulated at 14.4V. Adequate for all possible loads, it always outputs through the shunt and its current shows on the EFIS in that channel. 20A standby alternator is regulated at 13.0V. The Hall effect sensor reads zero current on the EFIS basically forever - not a very informative data channel on the EFIS. The day the primary alternator breaks a belt, the shunt current drops to zero, the Hall sensor shows alternator output from the standby, and the bus voltage drops quickly to ~13V as the standby alternator takes the load. Plan (2) - Both alternators feeding through the shunt in parallel, no Hall sensor: Shunt shows combined output current from both alternators, which is always 100% primary alternator, 0% from standby (because it's regulated to 13 volts into a bus that's already at 14.4V). If the primary alternator ever fails, then the shunt current reading is 100% from the standby alternator. The bus voltage drops to ~13V which is the immediate clue the primary alternator is off-line. This same behavior allows testing the alternators separately at any time the engine is running by switching off their field supplies one at a time and observing: current in scenario (1) or bus voltage in scenario (2). The shunt in (2) reads system loads regardless of which alternator is doing the work. The Hall in (1) reads zero except when a failure or test occurs. This just means the pilot has to look at a new EFIS channel to see current if the main fails. In Plan (1), either the shunt or the Hall will always read zero. In plan (2), the shunt will always read current from one or the other alternator, but never both - and bus voltage is the indicator of which alternator is doing the work. Not sure a Hall sensor that reads zero in normal operations and only tells me current that the shunt in (2) would show me just as well in a failure scenario is worth buying and wiring in. On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 4:24 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 12:46 PM 1/19/2020, you wrote: > > Guys > > In my RV-10 both batteries (main Batt - Odissey PC-925, and Aux Batt - > Odissey PC-680) are in the back, inside the tail cone, behind the baggage > compartment. > This is a difficult place to reach, in the completed airplane, to connect > the clamps of a battery charger/maintainer. > > Therefore I am going to install an external socket like this > > > in the airplane skin, to be easy to connect the charger from the outside. > > > That's an AC power connector . . . not polarized. > No feature to prevent reversed connection. > This is not a very environmentally robust > device either. > > Is your airplane hangared? How about putting > a goof-proof connector just inside the baggage > compartment . . . leave door ajar and plug in > shore-power. Connector stays out of weather. > > > I am thinking in connecting both batteries to this socket through a SPDT > switch, to be able to select which battery to be charged. > > > What kind of charger? > > > Now the questions: > 1 - which is the current flowing through this socket when charging? > > > Depends on charger. > > 2 - consequently, which gauge of wires should be used (#18)? > 3 - should I use any fuse in this circuit? If yes, which A? > 4 - is there any possibility to charge both batteries at the same time? > If yes, which is the smart way to achieve that? > > > The only time you need to CHARGE a battery > is if you parked the airplane in a less-than- > full state of charge. The only time you need > to plug-in is if the airplane is going to be > parked for an extended period of time. > > You don't need a switch, there's a way > to wire a 3-terminal connector to effect > battery paralleling for the purpose of > MAINTAINING. But if you anticipate a need > to CHARGE less than topped-off batteries, > then we need to discuss the brand/model > of charger. > > Have you published a power distribution > diagram. How are these batteries wired > and controlled? > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: contact call support
From: "pallaviparker" <pallaviparker123(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 21, 2020
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Date: Jan 22, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Z-12 current sensor options
At 07:52 PM 1/21/2020, you wrote: >Gentlemen:=C2 planning a Z-12 -based dual >alternator and single battery but with both >alternator outputs paralleled into the 60A shunt >and eliminating the Hall effect sensor for the >standby alternator B-lead.=C2 The panel builder >is politely suggesting I will be happier if I >keep two independent current monitoring channels >in place.=C2 Please review my missive to him and >see if I am overlooking anything.=C2 Thanks! > > >>>>>>>>>> > >Plan (1) - Wired using one each Shunt and Hall >channels:=C2 60A alternator is regulated at >14.4V.=C2 Adequate for all possible loads, it >always outputs through the shunt and its current >shows on the EFIS in that channel.=C2 20A standby >alternator is regulated at 13.0V.=C2 The Hall >effect sensor reads zero current on the EFIS >basically forever - not a very informative data >channel on the EFIS.=C2 The day the primary >alternator breaks a belt, the shunt current >drops to zero, the Hall sensor shows alternator >output from the standby, and the bus voltage >drops quickly to ~13V as the standby alternator takes the load.=C2 =C2 > >Plan (2) - Both alternators feeding through the >shunt in parallel, no Hall sensor:=C2 =C2 Shunt >shows combined=C2 output=C2 current from both >alternators, which is always 100% primary >alternator, 0% from standby (because it's >regulated to 13 volts into a bus that's already >at 14.4V). If the primary alternator ever fails, >then the shunt current reading is 100% from the >standby alternator.=C2 The bus voltage drops to >~13V which is the immediate clue the primary alternator is off-line.=C2 =C2 > >This same behavior allows testing the >alternators separately at any time the engine is >running by switching off their field supplies >one at a time and observing: current in scenario >(1) or bus voltage in scenario (2).=C2 =C2 The >shunt in (2) reads system loads regardless of >which alternator is doing the work.=C2 The Hall >in (1) reads zero except when a failure or test >occurs.=C2 This just means the pilot has to look >at a new EFIS channel to see current if the main fails.=C2 =C2 > >In Plan (1), either the shunt or the Hall will >always read zero.=C2 In plan (2), the shunt will >always read current from one or the other >alternator, but never both - and bus voltage is >the indicator of which alternator is doing the work.=C2 =C2 > >Not sure a Hall sensor that reads zero in normal >operations and only tells me current that the >shunt in (2) would show me just as well in a >failure scenario is worth buying and wiring in.=C2 =C2 Current values observed in flight have very little significance in terms of low risk conduct of the mission. An artfully conducted FMEA and load analysis during the construction phase will confirm (1) adequate energy sources for all phases of flight and (2) no single failure of a system component will put the mission at risk. In other words, CURRENT values that present during any phase or failure condition are already known. The critical operational parameter is bus voltage wherein one is notified that the alternator in service IS or IS NOT supporting the bus at or above battery discharge voltage. Hence, active notification of LOW VOLTS is the single system parameter that drives decisions between plan-A, plan-B, plan-C, etc. If you anticipate two alternators, then make one of them a standby machine that is MANUALLY selected at such time the main alternator is unable to keep the voltage up. Plan-B is turn OFF main alternator, turn ON standby alternator. Auto-switching of the standby alternator adds minimal value for risk reduction while significantly adding cost. BOTH B-leads can share a hall effect current sensor as illustrated in http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z12NP1.pdf A single EFIS channel can be utilized to monitor both alternators . . . but understand that numbers displayed by this feature are incidental to the fact that system voltage IS or IS NOT adequate to prevent discharging the battery. If the voltage IS NOT adequate, then go to plan-C. One sensor is adequate and useful only during system diagnosis flight or ground testing. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Z-12 current sensor options
At 07:52 PM 1/21/2020, you wrote: >Gentlemen:=C2 planning a Z-12 -based dual >alternator and single battery but with both >alternator outputs paralleled into the 60A shunt >and eliminating the Hall effect sensor for the >standby alternator B-lead.=C2 The panel builder >is politely suggesting I will be happier if I >keep two independent current monitoring channels >in place.=C2 Please review my missive to him and >see if I am overlooking anything.=C2 Thanks! > > >>>>>>>>>> > >Plan (1) - Wired using one each Shunt and Hall >channels:=C2 60A alternator is regulated at >14.4V.=C2 Adequate for all possible loads, it >always outputs through the shunt and its current >shows on the EFIS in that channel.=C2 20A standby >alternator is regulated at 13.0V.=C2 The Hall >effect sensor reads zero current on the EFIS >basically forever - not a very informative data >channel on the EFIS.=C2 The day the primary >alternator breaks a belt, the shunt current >drops to zero, the Hall sensor shows alternator >output from the standby, and the bus voltage >drops quickly to ~13V as the standby alternator takes the load.=C2 =C2 > >Plan (2) - Both alternators feeding through the >shunt in parallel, no Hall sensor:=C2 =C2 Shunt >shows combined=C2 output=C2 current from both >alternators, which is always 100% primary >alternator, 0% from standby (because it's >regulated to 13 volts into a bus that's already >at 14.4V). If the primary alternator ever fails, >then the shunt current reading is 100% from the >standby alternator.=C2 The bus voltage drops to >~13V which is the immediate clue the primary alternator is off-line.=C2 =C2 > >This same behavior allows testing the >alternators separately at any time the engine is >running by switching off their field supplies >one at a time and observing: current in scenario >(1) or bus voltage in scenario (2).=C2 =C2 The >shunt in (2) reads system loads regardless of >which alternator is doing the work.=C2 The Hall >in (1) reads zero except when a failure or test >occurs.=C2 This just means the pilot has to look >at a new EFIS channel to see current if the main fails.=C2 =C2 > >In Plan (1), either the shunt or the Hall will >always read zero.=C2 In plan (2), the shunt will >always read current from one or the other >alternator, but never both - and bus voltage is >the indicator of which alternator is doing the work.=C2 =C2 > >Not sure a Hall sensor that reads zero in normal >operations and only tells me current that the >shunt in (2) would show me just as well in a >failure scenario is worth buying and wiring in.=C2 =C2 Current values observed in flight have very little significance in terms of low risk conduct of the mission. An artfully conducted FMEA and load analysis during the construction phase will confirm (1) adequate energy sources for all phases of flight and (2) no single failure of a system component will put the mission at risk. In other words, CURRENT values that present during any phase or failure condition are already known. The critical operational parameter is bus voltage wherein one is notified that the alternator in service IS or IS NOT supporting the bus at or above battery discharge voltage. Hence, active notification of LOW VOLTS is the single system parameter that drives decisions between plan-A, plan-B, plan-C, etc. If you anticipate two alternators, then make one of them a standby machine that is MANUALLY selected at such time the main alternator is unable to keep the voltage up. Plan-B is turn OFF main alternator, turn ON standby alternator. Auto-switching of the standby alternator adds minimal value for risk reduction while significantly adding cost. BOTH B-leads can share a hall effect current sensor as illustrated in http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z12NP1.pdf A single EFIS channel can be utilized to monitor both alternators . . . but understand that numbers displayed by this feature are incidental to the fact that system voltage IS or IS NOT adequate to prevent discharging the battery. If the voltage IS NOT adequate, then go to plan-C. One sensor is adequate and useful only during system diagnosis flight or ground testing. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Boyd <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 22, 2020
Subject: Re: Z-12 current sensor options
Thanks for the feedback, Bob. I have purchased and installed both the LR3C and the SB1B (I think those are the part #'s) external regulators from B&C. As you know, these come pre-set for 14.4 and 13.0 V respectively and (so I thought) were intended to be online simultaneously at these two voltages so that the switchover to the standby alternator was automatic and required no pilot action. Presumably the immediate drop in bus voltage from 14.4 to 13 would be sensed and alerted in the EFIS software. Please advise if this is not the correct implementation philosophy of this standby regulator in tandem with the LR3C, and why it is viewed as more complex/costly to implement (except the regulator vs the Ford unit.) I assume that if sharing a Hall sensor is permissible it is also permitted to share a 60A shunt. Thanks again. -Bill On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 11:33 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 07:52 PM 1/21/2020, you wrote: > > Gentlemen:=C3=82 planning a Z-12 -based dual alternator and single batte ry but > with both alternator outputs paralleled into the 60A shunt and eliminatin g > the Hall effect sensor for the standby alternator B-lead.=C3=82 The pane l > builder is politely suggesting I will be happier if I keep two independen t > current monitoring channels in place.=C3=82 Please review my missive to him and > see if I am overlooking anything.=C3=82 Thanks! > > >>>>>>>>>> > > Plan (1) - Wired using one each Shunt and Hall channels:=C3=82 60A alter nator > is regulated at 14.4V.=C3=82 Adequate for all possible loads, it always outputs > through the shunt and its current shows on the EFIS in that channel.=C3 =82 20A > standby alternator is regulated at 13.0V.=C3=82 The Hall effect sensor r eads > zero current on the EFIS basically forever - not a very informative data > channel on the EFIS.=C3=82 The day the primary alternator breaks a belt, the > shunt current drops to zero, the Hall sensor shows alternator output from > the standby, and the bus voltage drops quickly to ~13V as the standby > alternator takes the load.=C3=82 =C3=82 > > Plan (2) - Both alternators feeding through the shunt in parallel, no Hal l > sensor:=C3=82 =C3=82 Shunt shows combined=C3=82 output=C3=82 current fro m both alternators, > which is always 100% primary alternator, 0% from standby (because it's > regulated to 13 volts into a bus that's already at 14.4V). If the primary > alternator ever fails, then the shunt current reading is 100% from the > standby alternator.=C3=82 The bus voltage drops to ~13V which is the imm ediate > clue the primary alternator is off-line.=C3=82 =C3=82 > > This same behavior allows testing the alternators separately at any time > the engine is running by switching off their field supplies one at a time > and observing: current in scenario (1) or bus voltage in scenario (2).=C3 =82 =C3=82 > The shunt in (2) reads system loads regardless of which alternator is doi ng > the work.=C3=82 The Hall in (1) reads zero except when a failure or test > occurs.=C3=82 This just means the pilot has to look at a new EFIS channe l to > see current if the main fails.=C3=82 =C3=82 > > In Plan (1), either the shunt or the Hall will always read zero.=C3=82 I n plan > (2), the shunt will always read current from one or the other alternator, > but never both - and bus voltage is the indicator of which alternator is > doing the work.=C3=82 =C3=82 > > Not sure a Hall sensor that reads zero in normal operations and only tell s > me current that the shunt in (2) would show me just as well in a failure > scenario is worth buying and wiring in.=C3=82 =C3=82 > > > Current values observed in flight have very > little significance in terms of low risk > conduct of the mission. > > An artfully conducted FMEA and load analysis > during the construction phase will confirm > (1) adequate energy sources for all phases > of flight and (2) no single failure of > a system component will put the mission > at risk. > > In other words, CURRENT values that > present during any phase or failure condition > are already known. The critical operational > parameter is bus voltage wherein one is > notified that the alternator in service IS > or IS NOT supporting the bus at or above > battery discharge voltage. > > Hence, active notification of LOW VOLTS > is the single system parameter that drives > decisions between plan-A, plan-B, plan-C, > etc. > > If you anticipate two alternators, then > make one of them a standby machine that is > MANUALLY selected at such time the main > alternator is unable to keep the voltage > up. Plan-B is turn OFF main alternator, > turn ON standby alternator. Auto-switching > of the standby alternator adds minimal value > for risk reduction while significantly > adding cost. > > BOTH B-leads can share a hall effect > current sensor as illustrated in > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z12NP1.pdf > > A single EFIS channel can be utilized > to monitor both alternators . . . but > understand that numbers displayed by this > feature are incidental to the fact that > system voltage IS or IS NOT adequate to > prevent discharging the battery. If the > voltage IS NOT adequate, then go to plan-C. > > One sensor is adequate and useful > only during system diagnosis flight > or ground testing. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Z-12 current sensor options
At 07:52 PM 1/21/2020, you wrote: >Gentlemen:=C2 planning a Z-12 -based dual >alternator and single battery but with both >alternator outputs paralleled into the 60A shunt >and eliminating the Hall effect sensor for the >standby alternator B-lead.=C2 The panel builder >is politely suggesting I will be happier if I >keep two independent current monitoring channels >in place.=C2 Please review my missive to him and >see if I am overlooking anything.=C2 Thanks! > > >>>>>>>>>> > >Plan (1) - Wired using one each Shunt and Hall >channels:=C2 60A alternator is regulated at >14.4V.=C2 Adequate for all possible loads, it >always outputs through the shunt and its current >shows on the EFIS in that channel.=C2 20A standby >alternator is regulated at 13.0V.=C2 The Hall >effect sensor reads zero current on the EFIS >basically forever - not a very informative data >channel on the EFIS.=C2 The day the primary >alternator breaks a belt, the shunt current >drops to zero, the Hall sensor shows alternator >output from the standby, and the bus voltage >drops quickly to ~13V as the standby alternator takes the load.=C2 =C2 > >Plan (2) - Both alternators feeding through the >shunt in parallel, no Hall sensor:=C2 =C2 Shunt >shows combined=C2 output=C2 current from both >alternators, which is always 100% primary >alternator, 0% from standby (because it's >regulated to 13 volts into a bus that's already >at 14.4V). If the primary alternator ever fails, >then the shunt current reading is 100% from the >standby alternator.=C2 The bus voltage drops to >~13V which is the immediate clue the primary alternator is off-line.=C2 =C2 > >This same behavior allows testing the >alternators separately at any time the engine is >running by switching off their field supplies >one at a time and observing: current in scenario >(1) or bus voltage in scenario (2).=C2 =C2 The >shunt in (2) reads system loads regardless of >which alternator is doing the work.=C2 The Hall >in (1) reads zero except when a failure or test >occurs.=C2 This just means the pilot has to look >at a new EFIS channel to see current if the main fails.=C2 =C2 > >In Plan (1), either the shunt or the Hall will >always read zero.=C2 In plan (2), the shunt will >always read current from one or the other >alternator, but never both - and bus voltage is >the indicator of which alternator is doing the work.=C2 =C2 > >Not sure a Hall sensor that reads zero in normal >operations and only tells me current that the >shunt in (2) would show me just as well in a >failure scenario is worth buying and wiring in.=C2 =C2 Current values observed in flight have very little significance in terms of low risk conduct of the mission. An artfully conducted FMEA and load analysis during the construction phase will confirm (1) adequate energy sources for all phases of flight and (2) no single failure of a system component will put the mission at risk. In other words, CURRENT values that present during any phase or failure condition are already known. The critical operational parameter is bus voltage wherein one is notified that the alternator in service IS or IS NOT supporting the bus at or above battery discharge voltage. Hence, active notification of LOW VOLTS is the single system parameter that drives decisions between plan-A, plan-B, plan-C, etc. If you anticipate two alternators, then make one of them a standby machine that is MANUALLY selected at such time the main alternator is unable to keep the voltage up. Plan-B is turn OFF main alternator, turn ON standby alternator. Auto-switching of the standby alternator adds minimal value for risk reduction while significantly adding cost. BOTH B-leads can share a hall effect current sensor as illustrated in http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z12NP1.pdf A single EFIS channel can be utilized to monitor both alternators . . . but understand that numbers displayed by this feature are incidental to the fact that system voltage IS or IS NOT adequate to prevent discharging the battery. If the voltage IS NOT adequate, then go to plan-C. One sensor is adequate and useful only during system diagnosis flight or ground testing. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-12 current sensor options
At 11:59 AM 1/22/2020, you wrote: >Thanks for the feedback, Bob.=C2 =C2 > >I have purchased=C2 and installed both the LR3C >and the SB1B (I think those are the part #'s) >external regulators from B&C.=C2 As you know, >these come pre-set for 14.4 and 13.0 V >respectively and (so I thought) were intended to >be online simultaneously at these two voltages >so that the switchover to the standby alternator >was automatic and required no pilot action. Yup, this was a feature that targeted the heavy-singles market and warmed cockles in the hearts of most bureaucratic worry-specialists. IMHO, entirely unnecessary in the OBAM aviation market . . . >=C2 Presumably the immediate drop in bus voltage >from 14.4 to 13 would be sensed and alerted in the EFIS software. The SB1B comes with an 'ALTERNATOR LOADED' annunciator which offers timely notification of main alternator failure as will any EFIS alarm set to alert for a bus votlage below the SB1 setpoint. >=C2 Please advise if this is not the correct >implementation philosophy of this standby >regulator in tandem with the LR3C, and why it is >viewed as more complex/costly to implement >(except the regulator vs the Ford unit.) Okay, if you're already down that road, then my prior argument isn't useful. Smoke ahead . . . it works as advertised. >I assume=C2 that if sharing a Hall sensor is >permissible it is also permitted to share a 60A shunt. This is a 'real' shunt . . . not a hall-effect sensor? Yes, you can tie both b-leads to the anti-battery end of the shunt. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-12 current sensor options
At 11:59 AM 1/22/2020, you wrote: >Thanks for the feedback, Bob.=C2 =C2 > >I have purchased=C2 and installed both the LR3C >and the SB1B (I think those are the part #'s) >external regulators from B&C.=C2 As you know, >these come pre-set for 14.4 and 13.0 V >respectively and (so I thought) were intended to >be online simultaneously at these two voltages >so that the switchover to the standby alternator >was automatic and required no pilot action. Yup, this was a feature that targeted the heavy-singles market and warmed cockles in the hearts of most bureaucratic worry-specialists. IMHO, entirely unnecessary in the OBAM aviation market . . . >=C2 Presumably the immediate drop in bus voltage >from 14.4 to 13 would be sensed and alerted in the EFIS software. The SB1B comes with an 'ALTERNATOR LOADED' annunciator which offers timely notification of main alternator failure as will any EFIS alarm set to alert for a bus votlage below the SB1 setpoint. >=C2 Please advise if this is not the correct >implementation philosophy of this standby >regulator in tandem with the LR3C, and why it is >viewed as more complex/costly to implement >(except the regulator vs the Ford unit.) Okay, if you're already down that road, then my prior argument isn't useful. Smoke ahead . . . it works as advertised. >I assume=C2 that if sharing a Hall sensor is >permissible it is also permitted to share a 60A shunt. This is a 'real' shunt . . . not a hall-effect sensor? Yes, you can tie both b-leads to the anti-battery end of the shunt. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Is an ATC/ATO Fuse Block a Realistic Single Pt. of
Failure?
From: "markfw" <markwheelermd(at)icloud.com>
Date: Jan 22, 2020
I am building an electrically dependent airplane and I have used almost entirely fused circuits as Bob has suggested. So, I will be using two ATC/ATO fuse blocks tied together for my endurance bus. THEORETICALLY each is a single point of failure. It's difficult to imagine how an entire fuse block could fail if the nuts on the terminals are properly applied. Should I worry about this? What are people's opinions? Thanks. Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494394#494394 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-12 current sensor options
At 11:59 AM 1/22/2020, you wrote: >Thanks for the feedback, Bob.=C2 =C2 > >I have purchased=C2 and installed both the LR3C >and the SB1B (I think those are the part #'s) >external regulators from B&C.=C2 As you know, >these come pre-set for 14.4 and 13.0 V >respectively and (so I thought) were intended to >be online simultaneously at these two voltages >so that the switchover to the standby alternator >was automatic and required no pilot action. Yup, this was a feature that targeted the heavy-singles market and warmed cockles in the hearts of most bureaucratic worry-specialists. IMHO, entirely unnecessary in the OBAM aviation market . . . >=C2 Presumably the immediate drop in bus voltage >from 14.4 to 13 would be sensed and alerted in the EFIS software. The SB1B comes with an 'ALTERNATOR LOADED' annunciator which offers timely notification of main alternator failure as will any EFIS alarm set to alert for a bus votlage below the SB1 setpoint. >=C2 Please advise if this is not the correct >implementation philosophy of this standby >regulator in tandem with the LR3C, and why it is >viewed as more complex/costly to implement >(except the regulator vs the Ford unit.) Okay, if you're already down that road, then my prior argument isn't useful. Smoke ahead . . . it works as advertised. >I assume=C2 that if sharing a Hall sensor is >permissible it is also permitted to share a 60A shunt. This is a 'real' shunt . . . not a hall-effect sensor? Yes, you can tie both b-leads to the anti-battery end of the shunt. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Boyd <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 22, 2020
Subject: Re: Z-12 current sensor options
Yes, that is correct, planning both B leads to the anti-battery end of the physical brass-bar shunt Dynon shunt. I thought it would work that way but nice to have your eyes on it first. Thank you. I'll have them leave the Hall sensor out of the panel quote. -Bill On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 3:10 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 11:59 AM 1/22/2020, you wrote: > > Thanks for the feedback, Bob.=C3=82 =C3=82 > > I have purchased=C3=82 and installed both the LR3C and the SB1B (I think those > are the part #'s) external regulators from B&C.=C3=82 As you know, these come > pre-set for 14.4 and 13.0 V respectively and (so I thought) were intended > to be online simultaneously at these two voltages so that the switchover to > the standby alternator was automatic and required no pilot action. > > > Yup, this was a feature that targeted > the heavy-singles market and warmed > cockles in the hearts of most bureaucratic > worry-specialists. IMHO, entirely unnecessary > in the OBAM aviation market . . . > > =C3=82 Presumably the immediate drop in bus voltage from 14.4 to 13 woul d be > sensed and alerted in the EFIS software. > > > The SB1B comes with an 'ALTERNATOR LOADED' > annunciator which offers timely notification > of main alternator failure as will any EFIS > alarm set to alert for a bus votlage below > the SB1 setpoint. > > =C3=82 Please advise if this is not the correct implementation philosoph y of > this standby regulator in tandem with the LR3C, and why it is viewed as > more complex/costly to implement (except the regulator vs the Ford unit.) > > > Okay, if you're already down that road, then > my prior argument isn't useful. Smoke ahead . . . > it works as advertised. > > > I assume=C3=82 that if sharing a Hall sensor is permissible it is also > permitted to share a 60A shunt. > > > This is a 'real' shunt . . . not a hall-effect > sensor? Yes, you can tie both b-leads to the > anti-battery end of the shunt. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-12 current sensor options
At 05:28 PM 1/22/2020, you wrote: >Yes, that is correct, planning both B leads to >the anti-battery end of the physical brass-bar >shunt Dynon shunt.=C2 I thought it would work >that way but nice to have your eyes on it >first.=C2 Thank you.=C2 I'll have them leave the >Hall sensor out of the panel quote.=C2 Works good . . . lasts a long time . . . sounds like a PLAN . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Z11 revision needed?
Date: Jan 22, 2020
Hi, I'm in-process, updating my purchased RV6 electrical system. It was loosely based on the AEC Z figures, but needs updating for several reasons. This is a relatively simple, 1 battery/1 alternator system with 1 mag & 1 Lightspeed ignition, and Bendix style injection. While consulting the Z figures to rearrange loads to various buses, I noticed the boost pump feed on the Endurance bus is shown as 3A. No doubt Z11 was created when 'simple' planes had fueled delivered by carbs, but Bendix style injection has become quite common on RVs & other Lyc powered homebuilts. The issue I'm raising is that virtually all the commonly used 'boost' pumps (actually *backup* pumps) in use with Bendix style fuel injection these days have at their core, an automotive fuel injection pump which draws a minimum of roughly 6A continuous, with no doubt, considerably higher startup inrush current. With only a 7A fuse (and 16 Ga wire) feeding the Endurance bus, This seems quite marginal. Even if we assume minimal actual loads from the other active devices on this bus, the need to activate the backup fuel pump could result in getting 'close to the edge' of voltage drop ratings for 16 Ga wire, and if we are already operating in Endurance mode, could easily take out the 7A fuse supplying the endurance feed to the bus. Should wire sizes and fusing be increased on this drawing, as has been done on some of the other drawings where the backup pump load is shown as 10A? I should note that several other Z figures also show 7A protection and 16 Ga wire to the Endurance bus, but most of the others don't define any loads on that bus. Assuming that a high pressure pump is needed in the a/c, it would need to be on the Endurance bus and, it seems to me, the bus would need a more robust supply. Even with everything (including the alternator) on line, having to add the backup fuel pump load to the other loads on that bus will push voltage drop on the feed wire past the typical 10% limit. Thanks, Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Is an ATC/ATO Fuse Block a Realistic Single Pt.
of Failure? At 02:09 PM 1/22/2020, you wrote: > >I am building an electrically dependent airplane and I have used >almost entirely fused circuits as Bob has suggested. > >So, I will be using two ATC/ATO fuse blocks tied together for my >endurance bus. THEORETICALLY each is a single point of failure. > >It's difficult to imagine how an entire fuse block could fail if the >nuts on the terminals are properly applied. Should I worry about >this? What are people's opinions? > >Thanks. > >Mark TWO fuse blocks on the endurance bus? What loads run from this bus? Those fuse blocks are components of a bus-structure . . . generally considered 10 to the minus 9th reliability, assuming no errors of assembly. After installation of the fuse block feeder nuts, tighten snuggly and put a drop of super-glue at the juncture of the stud and nut. Alternatively you could replace the existing nut with an elastic stop-nut. I think that stud is a 10-24 thread . . . most ACE hardware stores stock these nuts for about $0.60 each. Beyond that simple precaution, there's not much to worry about as long as you pay attention to details of assembly during installation. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 22, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Is an ATC/ATO Fuse Block a Realistic Single Pt.
of Failure? At 02:09 PM 1/22/2020, you wrote: > >I am building an electrically dependent airplane and I have used >almost entirely fused circuits as Bob has suggested. > >So, I will be using two ATC/ATO fuse blocks tied together for my >endurance bus. THEORETICALLY each is a single point of failure. >


December 21, 2019 - January 22, 2020

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