AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-pg

January 22, 2020 - February 16, 2020



      >It's difficult to imagine how an entire fuse block could fail if the 
      >nuts on the terminals are properly applied. Should I worry about 
      >this? What are people's opinions?
      >
      >Thanks.
      >
      >Mark
      
         TWO fuse blocks on the endurance bus? What
         loads run from this bus?
      
         Those fuse blocks are components of
         a bus-structure . . . generally considered
         10 to the minus 9th reliability, assuming
         no errors of assembly.
      
         After installation of the fuse block
         feeder nuts, tighten snuggly and put
         a drop of super-glue at the juncture
         of the stud and nut. Alternatively
         you could replace the existing nut
         with an elastic stop-nut. I think that
         stud is a 10-24 thread . . . most ACE
         hardware stores stock these nuts for
         about $0.60 each.
      
         Beyond that simple precaution, there's
         not much to worry about as long as you
         pay attention to details of assembly
         during installation.
      
         Bob . . .  
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Is an ATC/ATO Fuse Block a Realistic Single Pt.
of Failure?
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 22, 2020
Hi Mark, In case this works for you... add a 2nd feed stud to the Bussman fuse block... https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZKjbqnU3DfkUKNex2 -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F Dual Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494405#494405 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Boyd <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 23, 2020
Subject: Re: Z-12 current sensor options
Thanks again, Bob. When it's all dialed in, I'm going to sketch my personal iteration of Z-12 and post a snap here on the List for critical review. -Bill On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 6:52 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 05:28 PM 1/22/2020, you wrote: > > Yes, that is correct, planning both B leads to the anti-battery end of th e > physical brass-bar shunt Dynon shunt.=C3=82 I thought it would work that way > but nice to have your eyes on it first.=C3=82 Thank you.=C3=82 I'll hav e them leave > the Hall sensor out of the panel quote.=C3=82 > > > Works good . . . lasts a long time . . . sounds like a PLAN . . . > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Is an ATC/ATO Fuse Block a Realistic Single
Pt. of Failure? At 09:06 PM 1/22/2020, you wrote: > > >Hi Mark, > >In case this works for you... add a 2nd feed stud to the Bussman >fuse block... https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZKjbqnU3DfkUKNex2 Be circumspect about redundant feed paths to critical loads . . . how will you know that one of htem is not intact? The value of a dual feed path is lost if integrity of each is not at least pre-flight detectable or annunciated in flight. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 23, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z11 revision needed?
At 06:56 PM 1/22/2020, you wrote: > > >Hi, > >I'm in-process, updating my purchased RV6 electrical system. It was >loosely based on the AEC Z figures, but needs updating for several >reasons. This is a relatively simple, 1 battery/1 alternator system >with 1 mag & 1 Lightspeed ignition, and Bendix style injection. > >While consulting the Z figures to rearrange loads to various buses, >I noticed the boost pump feed on the Endurance bus is shown as 3A. >No doubt Z11 was created when 'simple' planes had fueled delivered >by carbs, but Bendix style injection has become quite common on RVs >& other Lyc powered homebuilts. The z-figures are ARCHITECTURE EXAMPLES to aid in fabrication of a power distribution appropriate to YOUR project. >The issue I'm raising is that virtually all the commonly used >'boost' pumps (actually *backup* pumps) in use with Bendix style >fuel injection these days have at their core, an automotive fuel >injection pump which draws a minimum of roughly 6A continuous, with >no doubt, considerably higher startup inrush current. With only a 7A >fuse (and 16 Ga wire) feeding the Endurance bus, This seems quite >marginal. Even if we assume minimal actual loads from the other >active devices on this bus, the need to activate the backup fuel >pump could result in getting 'close to the edge' of voltage drop >ratings for 16 Ga wire, and if we are already operating in Endurance >mode, could easily take out the 7A fuse supplying the endurance feed >to the bus. This is what the LOAD ANALYSIS is for . . . it should be the very first document you craft in the planning for your airplane. This document provides the foundation for ADAPTING a z-figure to your specific needs. >Should wire sizes and fusing be increased on this drawing, as has >been done on some of the other drawings where the backup pump load >is shown as 10A? > >I should note that several other Z figures also show 7A protection >and 16 Ga wire to the Endurance bus, but most of the others don't >define any loads on that bus. Assuming that a high pressure pump is >needed in the a/c, it would need to be on the Endurance bus and, it >seems to me, the bus would need a more robust supply. > >Even with everything (including the alternator) on line, having to >add the backup fuel pump load to the other loads on that bus will >push voltage drop on the feed wire past the typical 10% limit. Size ALL circuit protection to the anticipated loads along with considerations for the use of fuses that need 25 percent headroom for steady loads . . . EXTRA for loads with inrush currents. Fuses can be 'hammered' to failure by seemingly ordinary circumstances. Fuses are first sized to wire then upsized to grunt transients. This consideration is above an beyond any decisions about architecture. What your involved in now is the first phase of failure mode effects analysis based on a knowledge of system components. Good on you my friend. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Is an ATC/ATO Fuse Block a Realistic Single Pt.
of Failure
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 23, 2020
Thanks Bob, I do understand, as importantly shown in the N811HB accident investigation, that failures that have no effect on the current flight should be detected before the next flight! Those unfamiliar with N811HB may well learn more than one lesson at http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Accidents/N811HB_Feb2008_LA-IVp/ I am planning an O-360 with dual SDS ignition and injection. Part of my approach is to develop a detailed schematic of what it takes to keep the engine running, have a radio, and have a "six pack" of instruments long enough to make an alternate airport with the main contactors open (Z-14 derivative). I plan an engine bus with dual feeds, one from each battery via Schottky diodes; loss of one feed is preflight detectable using EFIS voltmeters. I do a wire by wire failure analysis that informs the preflight checklist: Assume only one failure per flight. What are the effects of a wire shorted or open? Does the failure affect safety? If so, can the safety effect be designed out? How will the failure be discovered before the next flight? If the failure affects flight safety, can something be done about it? How will the crew know what to do? Can they do it immediately by simple predetermined actions? In case of electrical fire can the battery contactor(s) be opened without affecting flight safety? Some failures not detectable by preflight checks are added to annual inspection: A fat wire short to sheetmetal that clears itself. Redundant grounds for both the computer and the injector driver sections of the ECUs. (Loss of computer ground sends injectors and coils 100% duty cycle.) Redundant grounds to voltage regulators. Some check done twice yearly: Ship's batteries and EFIS backup batteries capacity checks. Primary and aux alternator crowbar test. -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F Dual Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494425#494425 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Is an ATC/ATO Fuse Block a Realistic Single Pt.
of Failure
From: "markfw" <markwheelermd(at)icloud.com>
Date: Jan 24, 2020
Bob, You are right I should have called it my e-bus. I have actually merged my endurance bus and e-bus. I had extra slots in my fuse block after wiring the EFI fuses. With the new low-power electronics my "other instruments" power draw in endurance mode is only 1.9 amps of the total 9.15 amps power draw, so I think I can afford the power draw and it is simpler. Those instruments are (currently): GRT EIS B & C Warning LED Trim servo COM1 - MGL V6 Radio Sandia Mode "C" Transponder - STX165R uAvionix - SKYFYX GPS Bose Headphones (2) uAvionics ADS In/Out - EchoUAT MGL ASV-1 (ASI, VSI, Alt Combo) & Altitude encoder EFI Monitor Gauge With this setup I am visible to, and can talk to, the world, I still have traffic, weather, etc on a tablet on battery, and I can monitor my engine and the EFI. With my dual battery, 24 amp hour reserve I should have a safe, low stress flight for at least 2 hours in an ALT OUT situation. I am day, VFR so I am comfortable with this. I have been trying to follow your flight planning advice, and I thank you for it. I am working on my FMEA. Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494440#494440 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 24, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation
At 02:33 PM 1/23/2020, you wrote: > > >Thanks Bob, > >I do understand, as importantly shown in the N811HB accident >investigation, that failures that have no effect on the current >flight should be detected before the next flight! Those unfamiliar >with N811HB may well learn more than one lesson at >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Accidents/N811HB_Feb2008_LA-IVp/ This is an example of a system that was DESIGNED to fail. The builder attended one of my seminars out in Eugene OR some years earlier. Had the book. Was assisted by a degreed engineer neighbor. The same neighbor adapted Z-14 as a recommended architecture for a high performance airplane carrying a full-up compliment of Garmin glass . . . but then ignored the advice offered by his own recommendations by bringing BOTH ignitions to a common bus with a poorly crafted constellation of protective devices. The whole point of the Z14 philosophy is independent redundancy . . . but lost in this airplane by adding a feature that negated that philosophy in a catastrophic way. The feature? A dual diode feed common bus for both ignitions. If they had simply subscribed to this List and run the ideas past the members, the error would have most certainly been avoided with advice from numerous members. >I am planning an O-360 with dual SDS ignition and injection. Part of >my approach is to develop a detailed schematic of what it takes to >keep the engine running, have a radio, and have a "six pack" of >instruments long enough to make an alternate airport with the main >contactors open (Z-14 derivative). I plan an engine bus with dual >feeds, one from each battery via Schottky diodes; loss of one feed >is preflight detectable using EFIS voltmeters. Why dual feed bus? Run half the engine goodies from one battery bus, the rest from the opposite battery bus. These busses are already QUAD feed. either bus has the opportunity to power up from a total of 4 sources. No single failure will deprive BOTH busses of a robust energy source. >I do a wire by wire failure analysis that informs the preflight checklist: >Assume only one failure per flight. >What are the effects of a wire shorted or open? Wires, bus bars and most power distribution components are considered to be exceedingly low failure rate . . . those kinds of things are generally never a part of the system reliability study. >Does the failure affect safety? If so, can the safety effect be designed out? >How will the failure be discovered before the next flight? This is important for failures that may not be obvious in flight . . . for example a light bulb in a warning system, exterior lamps, back up pumps for the engine driven mechanical pump, etc. One might suffer a failure that would go unnoticed unless explored as part of a pre-flight process. >If the failure affects flight safety, can something be done about it? Have an alternative . . . i.e. plan-B . . . a way to do without that accessory. >How will the crew know what to do? Can they do it immediately by >simple predetermined actions? You betcha . . . that's what the FEMA and architecture refinement is all about. The design goal is to be able to tolerate failure of any LRU (line replaceable unit) with the least possible work load on crew. Z-14, for all it's robustness, only has three switches to fiddle with. They have NO potential for pilot-induced hazard. I.e. no mis-positioning of switches creates immediate hazard. >In case of electrical fire can the battery contactor(s) be opened >without affecting flight safety? Generally yes . . . I've initiated and/or completed numerous flights in the "J-3" mode . . . ZERO electrics. With engine feeds as recommended above, you can shut down all DC power management switches without affecting engine ops. >Some failures not detectable by preflight checks are added to annual >inspection: There should be no useful/critical accessory that is not at least pre-flight testable . . . otherwise, why carry it around? >A fat wire short to sheetmetal that clears itself. >Redundant grounds for both the computer and the injector driver >sections of the ECUs. (Loss of computer ground sends injectors and >coils 100% duty cycle.) >Redundant grounds to voltage regulators. > >Some check done twice yearly: >Ship's batteries and EFIS backup batteries capacity checks. >Primary and aux alternator crowbar test. You've got an excellent start on the task . . . let's keep talking. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Battery Voltage Under Load, no Charger
From: "farmrjohn" <faithvineyard(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 24, 2020
My search skills are not the best. I've found that a 12 volt battery should indicate 12.8 volts on its own. What voltage should it indicate if it has loads applied to it, i.e. checking out electrical components without the engine running or a charger/external power applied? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494442#494442 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery Voltage Under Load, no Charger
At 09:11 PM 1/24/2020, you wrote: > >My search skills are not the best. I've found that a 12 volt >battery should indicate 12.8 volts on its own. What voltage should >it indicate if it has loads applied to it, i.e. checking out >electrical components without the engine running or a >charger/external power applied? It depends on a lot of variables. Size and condition of battery, state of charge and size of loads. A fully charged battery in good condition and lightly loaded will start out at about 12.8 volts and move down from there. Here's an exemplar discharge plot for a 17 a.h. svla battery under various loads: Emacs! As the battery ages the initial discharge voltage falls and the rate of decay increases illustrating an increase in internal resistance and loss of capacity. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery Voltage Under Load, no Charger
At 09:11 PM 1/24/2020, you wrote: > >My search skills are not the best. I've found that a 12 volt >battery should indicate 12.8 volts on its own. What voltage should >it indicate if it has loads applied to it, i.e. checking out >electrical components without the engine running or a >charger/external power applied? It depends on a lot of variables. Size and condition of battery, state of charge and size of loads. A fully charged battery in good condition and lightly loaded will start out at about 12.8 volts and move down from there. Here's an exemplar discharge plot for a 17 a.h. svla battery under various loads: Emacs! As the battery ages the initial discharge voltage falls and the rate of decay increases illustrating an increase in internal resistance and loss of capacity. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 25, 2020
Subject: Re: Battery Voltage Under Load, no Charger
Do we have a consensus on how charged a battery must be before starting? Is it ok to hand start the engine and charge a very discharged battery with the alternator or is there some point at which a charger must be used? As long as there is enough power left to close the master relay and get the alternator going I've used the engine to charge the battery rather than a charger. On Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 08:54 Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 09:11 PM 1/24/2020, you wrote: > > faithvineyard(at)yahoo.com> > > My search skills are not the best. I've found that a 12 volt battery > should indicate 12.8 volts on its own. What voltage should it indicate if > it has loads applied to it, i.e. checking out electrical components without > the engine running or a charger/external power applied? > > > It depends on a lot of variables. Size and condition > of battery, state of charge and size of loads. A fully > charged battery in good condition and lightly loaded > will start out at about 12.8 volts and move down > from there. Here's an exemplar discharge plot for > a 17 a.h. svla battery under various loads: > > [image: Emacs!] > > > As the battery ages the initial discharge voltage falls > and the rate of decay increases illustrating an increase > in internal resistance and loss of capacity. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: To charge or not-to-charge, that is the question
At 11:10 AM 1/25/2020, you wrote: >Do we have a consensus on how charged a battery must be before >starting? Is it ok to hand start the engine and charge a very >discharged battery with the alternator or is there some point at >which a charger must be used? As long as there is enough power left >to close the master relay and get the alternator going I've used the >engine to charge the battery rather than a charger. The IDEAL answer is, don't use the ship's power sources to charge a depleted battery. This is echoed in the AFM for virtually all of the TC aircraft I've had contact with. Not that it's a guaranteed formula for system compromise . . . it's the SAFE formula to avoid system compromise. The REAL answer is, probably okay but with reservations. Depending on the SIZE of battery, SIZE of the alternator and battery CONDITION, the battery recharge rate MIGHT be hazardous to battery health. In extreme cases . . . catastrophic. In the earliest days of wet ni-cad batteries, numerous incidences of thermal runaway culminating in a battery fire were experienced. This condition prompted the 'band-aid' battery temperature monitor mandate in some aircraft Emacs! The PRACTICAL answer is, don't do it unless you've got no other options. I've brought airplanes home with crapped electrical systems in what I call the J-3 mode. If you're off home field and have no way to gently charge the battery, then consider propping the engine and coming home dark. You DO know how to do that . . . right? Consider charging the battery through el-cheepo jumper cables from a car. The $10 cable sets from Dollar General are small gage wire . . . generally 8 or even 10AWG. This small wire will limit recharge rate. Leave connected to the car with engine running for 10 minutes or so, THEN start ship's engine and let the alternator take over. There is no one-size-fits-all, simple answer beyond don't do it. But with some careful implementation and skill, it can be done with little if any risk. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: TRIM those replies
When replying to a message you've just downloaded, try to trim away stuff not relevant to your comment. Some of my posts ARE lengthy but echoing the entire posting when your question/comment is prompted by a few lines makes your posting more difficult to follow. Also, when taking the thread off on a connected tangent, consider changing the subject line to reflect that new path for the discussion. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: WTB junker 2" instrument
I'm looking to acquire a 2" instrument of any genre' for the case so the type of instrument and operating condition is irrelevant. Does anyone have something laying around that they could part with? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John M Tipton <john(at)tipton.me.uk>
Subject: Re: TRIM those replies
Date: Jan 25, 2020
Maybe using English too, rather than local dialects ~ Sent from my iPad ----x--O--x---- > On 25 Jan 2020, at 5:55 pm, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > When replying to a message you've just downloaded, > try to trim away stuff not relevant to your comment. > Some of my posts ARE lengthy but echoing the entire > posting when your question/comment is prompted by > a few lines makes your posting more difficult to > follow. > > Also, when taking the thread off on a connected > tangent, consider changing the subject line to > reflect that new path for the discussion. > > > Bob . . . > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery Voltage Under Load, no Charger
From: "farmrjohn" <faithvineyard(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 25, 2020
The situation that prompted my question is when I switched the battery on it indicated 12.8 volts. After I turned on the equipment I was working with (lights and radios) I noticed the voltage holding steady at 12.3. Unfortunately I didn't check the amps at that time. After I was done, I switched everything off then started the engine normally and the voltage was up to 14.2 when I switched on the alternator, amps were 6+. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494455#494455 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery Voltage Under Load, no Charger
At 12:56 PM 1/25/2020, you wrote: > >The situation that prompted my question is when I switched the >battery on it indicated 12.8 volts. After I turned on the equipment >I was working with (lights and radios) I noticed the voltage holding >steady at 12.3. Unfortunately I didn't check the amps at that >time. After I was done, I switched everything off then started the >engine normally and the voltage was up to 14.2 when I switched on >the alternator, amps were 6+. Having no more details, it sounds like things are fine. Have you ever cap-checked this battery? What kind, what size, how old? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 25, 2020
Subject: Re: WTB junker 2" instrument
I think my ammeter died the other day and I think it's 2 inches. Rather than replacing it I was just going to remove it completely from the system. I'm planning on troubleshooting it next week, I'll let you know. On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 9:59 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> > > I'm looking to acquire a 2" instrument of any > genre' for the case so the type of instrument > and operating condition is irrelevant. Does > anyone have something laying around that > they could part with? > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2020
From: speedy11(at)aol.com
Subject: A good deal for listers
To the folks who monitor this forum, I am offering a great deal on EarthX b attery brackets.=C2- I bought two for $49 each and do not need them.=C2 - They are new condition and have never been installed.=C2- I will sell one for $30 or both for $50 plus $5 shipping.=C2- Email me at speedy11 a t aol dot com if you want photos.=C2-=C2-Regards,Stan Sutterfield ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: WTB junker 2" instrument
At 03:50 PM 1/25/2020, you wrote: >I think my ammeter died the other day and I think it's 2 inches. >Rather than replacing it I was just going to remove it completely >from the system. > >I'm planning on troubleshooting it next week, I'll let you know. Thank you sir! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Battery Voltage Under Load, no Charger
From: "farmrjohn" <faithvineyard(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 26, 2020
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > At 12:56 PM 1/25/2020, you wrote: > > Having no more details, it sounds like things are > fine. > > Have you ever cap-checked this battery? What > kind, what size, how old? > > > > Bob . . . It's a Concord RG25, installed 3-23-16. I haven't cap-checked it. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494468#494468 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Krea Ellis <krea.ellis(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Z-14 implementation for electrically dependent engine
Date: Jan 27, 2020
First post. Thanks for considering my dilemma. Installing dual ECU SDS fuel injection and ignition on a 6 cylinder Lycoming on an RV-10. Design goal was for independent busses for each channel of SDS. Easy to achieve for fuel pumps, ECUs and coil packs. Not easy for fuel injector power. In normal mode, each ECU only controls half (three) fuel injectors. Injectors are ground triggered by the ECU, power to all injectors comes from the airframe bus(ses), not the ECUs. Was trying to avoid have power for injectors going through a single switch. Other option is a diode fed/protected injector bus but this creates failure modes as well. So is power through an appropriately rated Honeywell TL switch more reliable/redundant than the diode fed bus? Any other suggestions as to how to provide redundant power to all 6 fuel injectors? Thanks much! Krea Ellis Sent from my iPad ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 27, 2020
Subject: Re: Z-14 implementation for electrically dependent
engine On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 6:15 AM Krea Ellis wrote: > > > =EF=BBFirst post. Thanks for considering my dilemma. > > Installing dual ECU SDS fuel injection and ignition on a 6 cylinder > Lycoming on an RV-10. > > Design goal was for independent busses for each =9Cchannel=9D of SDS. Easy to > achieve for fuel pumps, ECU=99s and coil packs. Not easy for fuel i njector > power. In normal mode, each ECU only controls half (three) fuel injectors . > Injectors are ground triggered by the ECU, power to all injectors comes > from the airframe bus(ses), not the ECU=99s. > > Was trying to avoid have power for injectors going through a single > switch. Other option is a diode fed/protected =9Cinjector bus =9D but this > creates failure modes as well. > > So is power through an appropriately rated Honeywell TL switch more > reliable/redundant than the diode fed bus? > > Any other suggestions as to how to provide redundant power to all 6 fuel > injectors? > > Thanks much! > > Krea Ellis I can offer some of the choices I made for a different automotive-style injection system, for your consideration. My dual controller system and all associated components are powered by a single 'engine bus', which is separate from any other a/c bus. The engine bus can be powered either directly from the battery, via a heavy duty switch, or from the plane's main power bus, via another heavy duty switch. The entire a/c can be powered down without affecting the engine, similar to a 'traditional' a/c engine installation. Each injector (and each individual coil) has its own fused supply from the engine bus. Assuming a 'best practices' installation of the engine bus and its supply circuits, the odds of losing the entire bus should be about the same as airframe structural failure. Individual components fed by the bus are protected by fuses, so no single component or wire failure should be able to take down the entire bus. The controller has too many other design choices to cover here, but the short version is that the engine can be made to run at near full power with the loss of just about any one thing, short of total electrical failure. While I'm aware of SDS' products, I'm not intimately familiar with how they handle failed subsystems. Are you saying that if you lose a controller, there's no way to drive that bank of injectors from the other controller? That does not sound like a system that would keep me happy at all. Losing half the engine's cylinders means losing *far* more than half its performance, not unlike a twin losing an engine. Will a fully loaded -10 be able to climb safely on significantly less than 50% power? It sounds like the designer chose the loss of half the engine, over the choice of losing a single cylinder if a relay failed. To recap, my choice would be to supply all the injectors' power with individually fused circuits from a single, well conceived and installed bus, with redundant power sources. Your choices might be different, of course. Charlie (Mazda Renesis/RWS controller installation in progress) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-14 implementation for electrically dependent
engine
From: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 27, 2020
Krea Welcome. A good thought provoking question. I'm confident that properly implemented diode feeding is more reliable than any switch. Especially for a switch that is not operated in fight. I'm cautious about diode fed power though unless there will be real time failure indications. Finding the failed issue on the next start up is fine however I want to know about such failures well before I decide where to land. I believe that the risk from an in flight switch failure is minuscule compared to the risk of several other failures not least of which is the risk of aircraft handling after a power loss. So from an emergency handling perspective diodes are attractive but there will still be switches in the circuit. I think the dilemma is whether to wire both busses through a dual throw switch with no diodes or two single throw switches and diodes for each bank of 3 injectors. I'd favor the latter choice or consider the comment in my last paragraph below. I avoided dual throw switches and diodes myself but I had other options. I assume these are battery busses that are at very low risk of going dark simultaneously. It sounds like you understand the need to avoid cross connecting two busses through a switch that can't handle it (especially if one buss is dead). Sooner or later there will be switches mispositioned. Ecu's generally adjust injector timing for varying system ecu voltage so a diode in the injector supply might very slightly lean the engine if it was previously tuned without the diode. I don't have SDS ecu's but I chose to power all my operating injectors from the same buss at any given time to make switching everything one quick action while concentrating on flying the airplane. Unless I was confident that I could maintain flight on half my injectors I would do the same with your system. I can't maintain flight very long with half my injectors out but I still didn't want procedures such as: A. try switching half the injectors - is it better or worse. B. If still abnormal try switching the other two injectors - is it better or worse. C... If one of my ecu's is misbehaving in any way I want the other ecu to run everything rather than half and half. Ken On 27/01/2020 7:08 AM, Krea Ellis wrote: > > First post. Thanks for considering my dilemma. > > Installing dual ECU SDS fuel injection and ignition on a 6 cylinder Lycoming on an RV-10. > > Design goal was for independent busses for each channel of SDS. Easy to achieve for fuel pumps, ECUs and coil packs. Not easy for fuel injector power. In normal mode, each ECU only controls half (three) fuel injectors. Injectors are ground triggered by the ECU, power to all injectors comes from the airframe bus(ses), not the ECUs. > > Was trying to avoid have power for injectors going through a single switch. Other option is a diode fed/protected injector bus but this creates failure modes as well. > > So is power through an appropriately rated Honeywell TL switch more reliable/redundant than the diode fed bus? > > Any other suggestions as to how to provide redundant power to all 6 fuel injectors? > > Thanks much! > > Krea Ellis > > Sent from my iPad > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-14 implementation for electrically dependent
engine At 06:08 AM 1/27/2020, you wrote: > >=EF=BBFirst post. Thanks for considering my dilemma. > >Installing dual ECU SDS fuel injection and >ignition on a 6 cylinder Lycoming on an RV-10. > >Design goal was for independent busses for each >=9Cchannel=9D of SDS. Easy to achieve for fuel >pumps, ECU=99s and coil packs. Not easy for fuel >injector power. In normal mode, each ECU only >controls half (three) fuel injectors. Injectors >are ground triggered by the ECU, power to all >injectors comes from the airframe bus(ses), not the ECU=99s. > >Was trying to avoid have power for injectors >going through a single switch. Other option is a >diode fed/protected =9Cinjector bus=9D but this creates failure modes as well. > >So is power through an appropriately rated >Honeywell TL switch more reliable/redundant than the diode fed bus? > >Any other suggestions as to how to provide >redundant power to all 6 fuel injectors? > >Thanks much! What architecture are you considering? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-14 implementation for electrically dependent
engine At 06:08 AM 1/27/2020, you wrote: > >=EF=BBFirst post. Thanks for considering my dilemma. > >Installing dual ECU SDS fuel injection and >ignition on a 6 cylinder Lycoming on an RV-10. > >Design goal was for independent busses for each >=9Cchannel=9D of SDS. Easy to achieve for fuel >pumps, ECU=99s and coil packs. Not easy for fuel >injector power. In normal mode, each ECU only >controls half (three) fuel injectors. Injectors >are ground triggered by the ECU, power to all >injectors comes from the airframe bus(ses), not the ECU=99s. > >Was trying to avoid have power for injectors >going through a single switch. Other option is a >diode fed/protected =9Cinjector bus=9D but this creates failure modes as well. > >So is power through an appropriately rated >Honeywell TL switch more reliable/redundant than the diode fed bus? > >Any other suggestions as to how to provide >redundant power to all 6 fuel injectors? > >Thanks much! What architecture are you considering? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-14 implementation for electrically dependent
engine > >Any other suggestions as to how to provide redundant power to all 6 >fuel injectors? > >Thanks much! This is figure Z-14 . . . both main and aux busses are already quad redundant with virtually zero risk for total loss of power. Can you point us to a schematic/wiring diagram for the engine electrics? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Foghorn Inc <foghorn757(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Z-14 implementation for electrically dependent
engine
Date: Jan 27, 2020
The SDS diagrams show a single =9CENG=9D bus powering the system . I believe this bus should be powered from the battery bus to insure no int erruption in power if you have an alternator failure. SDS also recommends a s tandby battery that isn=99t apart of the electrical system and runs th rough a 30A switch for emergency power. Many ways to skin this cat. As to the relays and injectors. It=99s my understanding (4 cylinder en gines) that the dual ECUs connect to 2 injector relays. Each relay drives tw o injectors. If the primary ECU has a fault there is a switch to change to t he Alternate ECU, which will continue to fire all 4 injectors. I haven =99t read the 6 cylinder manual but it=99s available for free at www.s dsefi.com. Jeff Parker 757-817-4929 > On Jan 27, 2020, at 11:37, Charlie England wrote: > > =EF=BB > > >> On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 6:15 AM Krea Ellis wrote: > >> >> =EF=BBFirst post. Thanks for considering my dilemma. >> >> Installing dual ECU SDS fuel injection and ignition on a 6 cylinder Lycom ing on an RV-10. >> >> Design goal was for independent busses for each =9Cchannel=9D of SDS. Easy to achieve for fuel pumps, ECU=99s and coil packs. Not e asy for fuel injector power. In normal mode, each ECU only controls half (th ree) fuel injectors. Injectors are ground triggered by the ECU, power to all injectors comes from the airframe bus(ses), not the ECU=99s. >> >> Was trying to avoid have power for injectors going through a single switc h. Other option is a diode fed/protected =9Cinjector bus=9D but t his creates failure modes as well. >> >> So is power through an appropriately rated Honeywell TL switch more relia ble/redundant than the diode fed bus? >> >> Any other suggestions as to how to provide redundant power to all 6 fuel i njectors? >> >> Thanks much! >> >> Krea Ellis > > I can offer some of the choices I made for a different automotive-style in jection system, for your consideration. My dual controller system and all as sociated components are powered by a single 'engine bus', which is separate from any other a/c bus. The engine bus can be powered either directly from the battery, via a heavy duty switch, or from the plane's main power bus, v ia another heavy duty switch. The entire a/c can be powered down without aff ecting the engine, similar to a 'traditional' a/c engine installation. Each i njector (and each individual coil) has its own fused supply from the engine b us. Assuming a 'best practices' installation of the engine bus and its suppl y circuits, the odds of losing the entire bus should be about the same as ai rframe structural failure. Individual components fed by the bus are protecte d by fuses, so no single component or wire failure should be able to take do wn the entire bus. > > The controller has too many other design choices to cover here, but the sh ort version is that the engine can be made to run at near full power with th e loss of just about any one thing, short of total electrical failure. > > While I'm aware of SDS' products, I'm not intimately familiar with how the y handle failed subsystems. Are you saying that if you lose a controller, th ere's no way to drive that bank of injectors from the other controller? That does not sound like a system that would keep me happy at all. Losing half t he engine's cylinders means losing *far* more than half its performance, not unlike a twin losing an engine. Will a fully loaded -10 be able to climb sa fely on significantly less than 50% power? It sounds like the designer chose the loss of half the engine, over the choice of losing a single cylinder if a relay failed. > > To recap, my choice would be to supply all the injectors' power with indiv idually fused circuits from a single, well conceived and installed bus, with redundant power sources. Your choices might be different, of course. > > Charlie > (Mazda Renesis/RWS controller installation in progress) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 27, 2020
Thanks Bob, I'm planning dual ECU SDS electronic fuel injection and ignition for an O-360. The reason for a dual feed bus is that there is only one set of injectors. At present I am showing all engine related items on an engine bus. I don't know how to decide if this is the way to go or if it would be better to have an injector bus and put main and aux pumps, coils, and ECUs on main and aux battery buses. In the case of SDS the check engine light would go on the main battery bus and the injector relays on the aux battery bus. I plan voltmeters on main, aux, and battery buses in order to detect open or shorted engine bus feed diodes during preflight. These voltmeters are built into the dual EFIS screens and the backup EFIS. I also plan one radio on the engine bus so in event of electrical fire, master contactors open, the crew will have a radio in addition to the EFIS screens which have backup batteries from their manufacturers. The ECUs do not power the injectors. The ECU box has a computer section and an injector driver section. The injector driver section is transistor switches that ground the injector minus lead; injector power comes from ships power. Double-throw relays are used to switch injectors from primary to backup ECU in case of ECU failure. If we were looking for a universal solution that would work with EFII (brand) six cylinder applications as well as SDS applications the coils would logically go on an engine bus because EFII uses three four-cylinder coils and one of them fires top and bottom of cylinders 5 and 6 so loss of that coil is loss of two cylinders. This is not the case for SDS who use two six-cylinder coils; one for top and one for bottom. By the way, four-cylinder coils have integral drivers and six-cylinder coils have external drivers mounted next to them. It's interesting that power distribution components are not generally part of a reliability study. This saves me a lot of (wasted) work. I attached a snip of my electrical schematic. For those interested the full schematic and related documents are at https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u6GeZo6pmBWsKykLNVQMvu4o1VEVyP4K -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F Dual Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494481#494481 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/snip_of_electrical_schematic_rv_6a_with_sds_dual_em_5_f_rev_f_742.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-14 implementation for electrically dependent
engine
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 27, 2020
SDS six cylinder dual ECU system IS capable of driving all six injectors with one ECU. When they are driven by both ECUs, three on primary ECU and three on backup ECU, the ECUs are capable of trimming duty cycles to make all six A/F ratios the same. There is a three-position switch on the IP... pri/normal/bak... normal is for matched A/F ratios, pri or bak puts all six injectors on one ECU and the engine runs fine just you can't do LOP. -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F Dual Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494483#494483 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 27, 2020
What if the smoke in the cockpit is coming from Com 1? I suggest removing Com 1 from the engine bus. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494484#494484 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation
At 06:12 PM 1/27/2020, you wrote: > >What if the smoke in the cockpit is coming from Com 1? >I suggest removing Com 1 from the engine bus. or turning it off Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation
At 02:29 PM 1/27/2020, you wrote: > > >Thanks Bob, > >I'm planning dual ECU SDS electronic fuel injection and ignition for an O-360. > >The reason for a dual feed bus is that there is only one set of >injectors. At present I am showing all engine related items on an >engine bus. I don't know how to decide if this is the way to go or >if it would be better to have an injector bus and put main and aux >pumps, coils, and ECUs on main and aux battery buses. In the case of >SDS the check engine light would go on the main battery bus and the >injector relays on the aux battery bus. Okay, riddle me this . . . suppose all injectors were powered from the aux bus of Z14. Deduced and cite the failure that would bring the aux bus down . . . and what would be the mitigating action? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation
At 02:29 PM 1/27/2020, you wrote: > > >Thanks Bob, > >I'm planning dual ECU SDS electronic fuel injection and ignition for an O-360. > >The reason for a dual feed bus is that there is only one set of >injectors. At present I am showing all engine related items on an >engine bus. I don't know how to decide if this is the way to go or >if it would be better to have an injector bus and put main and aux >pumps, coils, and ECUs on main and aux battery buses. In the case of >SDS the check engine light would go on the main battery bus and the >injector relays on the aux battery bus. Okay, riddle me this . . . suppose all injectors were powered from the aux bus of Z14. Deduced and cite the failure that would bring the aux bus down . . . and what would be the mitigating action? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 27, 2020
Subject: Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation
Turning it off? Really? Is turning it off with a knob considered the same as cutting the power coming to the device? On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 4:41 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 06:12 PM 1/27/2020, you wrote: > > > What if the smoke in the cockpit is coming from Com 1? > I suggest removing Com 1 from the engine bus. > > > or turning it off > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Jan 27, 2020
Subject: Replacing an EGT Probe
Folks, I have one EGT probe which is intermittent and I want to replace it during my annual next month. It is an MGL probe, like this https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/1105567.php When I bought my engine, it came with a full set of probes and I kept the old ones. Should I install one of the old probes? Are they EGT probes the same? Or should I buy a new one? -- Art Z. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. *Deut. 10:19 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Replacing an EGT Probe
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 27, 2020
On 1/27/2020 8:34 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > Folks, > > I have one EGT probe which is intermittent and I want to replace it > during my annual next month. It is an MGL probe, like this > https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/1105567.php > > When I bought my engine, it came with a full set of probes and I kept > the old ones. > > Should I install one of the old probes? Are they EGT probes the same? > Or should I buy a new one? > > -- Art Z. > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > /Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. /Deut. > 10:19 Both are likely type K probes. Next question is, grounded or ungrounded. The replacement should match the original. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation
At 08:07 PM 1/27/2020, you wrote: >Turning it off? Really? Is turning it off with a knob considered the >same as cutting the power coming to the device? Probably . . . it's the first thing to try if you KNOW the smoke is coming from that appliance. Panel mounted devices are not a potential source for much smoke. they might smell bad but don't represent much of a hazard. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Replacing an EGT Probe
At 08:34 PM 1/27/2020, you wrote: >Folks, > >I have one EGT probe which is intermittent and I >want to replace it during my annual next month. >It is an MGL probe, like this=C2 >https://www.air craftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/1105567.php > >When I bought my engine, it came with a full set >of probes and I kept the old ones.=C2 > >Should I install one of the old probes? Are they >EGT probes the same? Or should I buy a new one?=C2 EGT probes are generally type-K wire and operationally robust . . . if they work at all . . . they're probably okay. Besides, you're not using it to hit a target temperature . . . just so many "clicks below peak." So try an old one . . . it just might save you some bux. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Replacing an EGT Probe
>Both are likely type K probes. Next question is, >grounded or ungrounded. The replacement should match the original. Charlie brings up an excellent point. If your EGT instrument is a stand-alone steam-gage, it probably doesn't care. But if a modern digitally processed device, it might make a difference. Something to consider if your experimental replacement from the junk-box is wonky. Cheap, low risk experiment. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 27, 2020
Subject: Re: Replacing an EGT Probe
Is it the probe or the connector? Art in my experience there is no difference in functionality between different brand probes. Garmin, Dynon, Electronics International, they all respond and read the same. The difference lies in the longevity of the probes and quality of the connectors. If you already have probes that came with the engine (and if you had 4 probes it was for some sort of engine monitor so they are probably the correct types) old or not I would use them until they fail. No sense spending money on something that will work the same as what you already have. I often cut the connectors off and use these instead: https://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/inpages/eioverlapolc-1-10-05470.php On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 7:25 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > Both are likely type K probes. Next question is, > grounded or ungrounded. The replacement should match the original. > > > Charlie brings up an excellent point. If your > EGT instrument is a stand-alone steam-gage, > it probably doesn't care. But if a modern > digitally processed device, it might make > a difference. Something to consider if your > experimental replacement from the junk-box > is wonky. Cheap, low risk experiment. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Krea Ellis <krea.ellis(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Z-14 implementation for SDS
Date: Jan 28, 2020
Ive tried to register to log in, but no luck - so I have to post a new thread. Sorry. Z14 architecture. As with John Bright, the issue is powering the injectors. All other components are redundant (ECU, fuel pump, 6 cylinder coil pack) and can be powered by an individual hot battery bus - protected by CBs and controlled by a Honeywell TL switch. My dilemma for the injectors is whether or not to power them from a Schottky diode protected injector bus, fed by each hot battery bus - or power them through a double pole triple throw switch. Normal position - 3 injectors powered by their respective hot battery bus, or all injectors powered by either A or B hot battery bus - with all power running through the TL switch. If the injector bus loses power for whatever reason, the engine dies. Trying to decide which architecture is the most reliable. Thank you. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-14 implementation for SDS
>If the injector bus=9D loses power for whatever reason, the engine dies. > >Trying to decide which architecture is the most reliable. But what might be the reason? 99.999% of the time, when a bus looses power, it's because the source of power for that bus was lost . . .not because of any catastrophic failure of wiring and/or bus structure. This is a good topic for conducting an artful FMEA. I posed the question earlier: Assume all injectors are powered from the z-14 aux bus. What failure of a device would bring down the bus in a manner that had no handy mitigation i.e. a plan-B? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2020
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Z-14 implementation for SDS
ail.com> wrote: If the =9Cinjector bus=9D loses power for whatever reason, the engine dies. The Wright brother had an engine that dripped fuel into a bowl at the intak e.=C2- That method doesn't give a lot of control, but it still works.=C2 - If you can gravity feed fuel, you might consider running a line to some place on the intake and control it with a needle valve. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Paul Zimmer <paul.zimmer00(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 28, 2020
Subject: This doesn't seem right, but what do I know
I use and monitor two Hall effect current sensors on my RV. One measures the current flow on the "B" lead from the main alternator, and the other measures the current flow to/from the main battery. What doesn't make sense to me is there are periodic and frequent current flows to/from the battery (1 to 5 amps) during normal cruise operations, this during periods of static and relatively light load (12-15 amps) on the electrical system, much smaller than the capacity of the 60A Plane Power alternator. I would expect all power to be supplied directly from the alternator as it is supplying the current at a higher voltage (~14.5v or so) than the battery. These periods of flow to/from the battery are short in duration normally lasting only a few seconds. Is this normal and to be expected, or does it suggest a problem with the internally regulated alternator, or perhaps with the current sensor itself? Any insight explaining what I am seeing will be appreciated. Thanks ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: This doesn't seem right, but what do I know
>These periods of flow to/from the battery are short >in duration normally lasting only a few seconds. > >Is this normal and to be expected, or does it >suggest a problem with the internally regulated >alternator, or perhaps with the current sensor itself? > >Any insight explaining what I am seeing will be appreciated. The battery's physics reacts to BUS VOLTAGE. Any period battery energy outflow MUST be paired with a drop in bus voltage to something below the battery's present open-circuit voltage. The voltage doesn't have to drop to the battery's natural delivery level (~12.5 volts for SVLA) . . . a battery across an operating bus will support small outflow currents at voltages higher than 12.5. What is your normal bus voltage and do you notice any depression of voltage that corresponds to battery outflow events? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Krea Ellis <krea.ellis(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Z-14 implementation for SDS
Date: Jan 28, 2020
Ive tried to register to log in, but no luck - so I have to post a new thread. Sorry. Z14 architecture. As with John Bright, the issue is powering the injectors. All other components are redundant (ECU, fuel pump, 6 cylinder coil pack) and can be powered by an individual hot battery bus - protected by CBs and controlled by a Honeywell TL switch. My dilemma for the injectors is whether or not to power them from a Schottky diode protected injector bus, fed by each hot battery bus - or power them through a double pole triple throw switch. Normal position - 3 injectors powered by their respective hot battery bus, or all injectors powered by either A or B hot battery bus - with all power running through the TL switch. If the injector bus loses power for whatever reason, the engine dies. Trying to decide which architecture is the most reliable. Thank you. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-14 implementation for SDS
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 28, 2020
On 1/28/2020 5:08 AM, Krea Ellis wrote: > > Ive tried to register to log in, but no luck - so I have to post a new thread. Sorry. > > Z14 architecture. As with John Bright, the issue is powering the injectors. All other components are redundant (ECU, fuel pump, 6 cylinder coil pack) and can be powered by an individual hot battery bus - protected by CBs and controlled by a Honeywell TL switch. > > My dilemma for the injectors is whether or not to power them from a Schottky diode protected injector bus, fed by each hot battery bus - or power them through a double pole triple throw switch. Normal position - 3 injectors powered by their respective hot battery bus, or all injectors powered by either A or B hot battery bus - with all power running through the TL switch. > > If the injector bus loses power for whatever reason, the engine dies. > > Trying to decide which architecture is the most reliable. Well, most safety related analysis techniques I've read about tend to assign 'reliable' to stuff we can't make redundant or for which we can't supply an alternative, like wings and other structure. If it's reasonably possible to provide an alternative for a safety of flight item, we *assume* that it can fail, *regardless of its reliability*, and provide an alternative (ex: pitch trim backs up direct pitch control from the stick). If you route all power for the injectors through a single multi-section switch, a mechanical failure of the switch (no matter how 'reliable') can take out all power to all injectors. In my opinion, it fails failure mode analysis, since there's no 'plan B' for a mechanical switch failure. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Plan-B fuel flow . . .
At 09:00 AM 1/28/2020, you wrote: >Krea Ellis wrote: > >If the =9Cinjector bus=9D loses power for whatever reason, the engine dies. > > >The Wright brother had an engine that dripped >fuel into a bowl at the intake. That method >doesn't give a lot of control, but it still >works. If you can gravity feed fuel, you might >consider running a line to someplace on the >intake and control it with a needle valve. Speaking of redundant fuel delivery systems, I'm recalling a conversation from waaayyy back in the dark ages . . . I think it was prompted by the John Denver crash in a LongEz. The investigators theorized that he ran a tank dry and may have stood on a rudder pedal trying to reach a fuel tank selector handle causing loss of control under engine-out conditions. The conversation debated a desire by some Ez owners not to have to run three fuel lines the length of the cockpit to a more conveniently located selector valve. I suggested an alternative, no-valve, all electric approach to fuel management on canard-pusher aircraft. Emacs! The suggestion also provided an alternative, completely independent, fuel delivery system. 4-port primer systems were a functional possibility for most Ez engines. I had recalled several "I leaned about flying from that" stories wherein a pilot brought his ship to a comfortable landing using a primer pump to keep the engine delivering useful power. So why not install an on-purpose, primer/run system? The pump driven, primer system would feed from one tank, the main fuel supply from the other tank. A third pump would transfer fuel from the left tank to the right tank. A needle valve in the primer line would be used to calibrate primer fuel flow to approximate that needed for 70% or so power. Don't know how many of these system were installed but I did get a report from one reader that did a calibrated, 4-port installation and flight tested it. He said it worked nicely. This arrangement had a high probability of enabling a graceful return to earth in case of problems in the primary fuel delivery system. Light, cheap, low energy requirements and completely independent of primary system. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Paul Zimmer <paul.zimmer00(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 28, 2020
Subject: Re: This doesn't seem right, but what do I know
I can=99t say that I=99ve noticed a bus voltage drop during the se times of battery outflow, but before I say one way or the other, I=99ll need t o pay a little closer attention, and perhaps record the engine monitor parameters during a flight which would allow for an after the fact thorough analysis of what actually went on. I=99ll circle back at a later date. Thank s On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 10:43 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > > These periods of flow to/from the battery are short > in duration normally lasting only a few seconds. > > Is this normal and to be expected, or does it > suggest a problem with the internally regulated > alternator, or perhaps with the current sensor itself? > > Any insight explaining what I am seeing will be appreciated. > > > The battery's physics reacts to BUS VOLTAGE. > Any period battery energy outflow MUST be > paired with a drop in bus voltage to something > below the battery's present open-circuit > voltage. > > The voltage doesn't have to drop to > the battery's natural delivery > level (~12.5 volts for SVLA) . . . > a battery across an operating bus > will support small outflow currents > at voltages higher than 12.5. > > What is your normal bus voltage and do > you notice any depression of voltage > that corresponds to battery outflow > events? > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: This doesn't seem right, but what do I know
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 28, 2020
If you were using a shunt, I'd suggest checking any fuseholders used to protect the sense wires. Any minor variations in resistance in the sense lines can cause significant instrument error, showing discharge. Charlie On 1/28/2020 10:46 AM, Paul Zimmer wrote: > I cant say that Ive noticed a bus voltage drop during these times of > battery outflow, but before I say one way or the other, Ill need to > pay a little closer attention, and perhaps record the engine monitor > parameters during a flight which would allow for an after the fact > thorough analysis of what actually went on. Ill circle back at a > later date. Thanks > > On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 10:43 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III > > > wrote: > > > >> These periods of flow to/from the battery are short >> in duration normally lasting only a few seconds. >> >> Is this normal and to be expected, or does it >> suggest a problem with the internally regulated >> alternator, or perhaps with the current sensor itself? >> >> Any insight explaining what I am seeing will be appreciated. > > The battery's physics reacts to BUS VOLTAGE. > Any period battery energy outflow MUST be > paired with a drop in bus voltage to something > below the battery's present open-circuit > voltage. > > The voltage doesn't have to drop to > the battery's natural delivery > level (~12.5 volts for SVLA) . . . > a battery across an operating bus > will support small outflow currents > at voltages higher than 12.5. > > What is your normal bus voltage and do > you notice any depression of voltage > that corresponds to battery outflow > events? > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Subject: To Krea: the Q. you haven't asked yet :-)
Date: Jan 28, 2020
I installed these in my RV6. The '2 seats with 5Lv' model will give you what you're looking for. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Car-Seat-Heater-Kit-Carbon-Fiber-Universal-Heated-Cushion-Warmer-2-level-5-level/253250702661?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 Hope that helps, Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 28, 2020
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > At 02:29 PM 1/27/2020, you wrote: > > Okay, riddle me this . . . suppose all injectors were > powered from the aux bus of Z14. Deduced and cite the > failure that would bring the aux bus down . . . and > what would be the mitigating action? > > > Bob . . . Thanks Bob, The feed to the bus itself could be interrupted resulting in engine stoppage. It is unlikely to lose a bus feed but not impossible; probably due to poor craftsmanship which in my anecdotal experience occurs too often. Also in an electrical fire in the cockpit scenario the crew would take the main and aux power buses down. I took a shot a bus config trade study for electronic injection + ignition; attached as a gif and in my filespace linked from my signature. -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F Dual Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494516#494516 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/bus_config_trades_for_electronic_injection__ignition_rev_01282020_819.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Plan-B fuel flow . . .
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 28, 2020
Dave Anders did something like this on his SDS EFI RV-4: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=1191654&postcount=140 Some photos of his RV-4: http://www.sdsefi.com/dave.htm -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F Dual Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494517#494517 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Jan 28, 2020
Subject: Re: Replacing an EGT Probe
Thanks, folks. I'll try one of the old EGT probes and see if it works. Cheers, -- Art Z. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. *Deut. 10:19 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Plan-B fuel flow . . .
From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net>
Date: Jan 29, 2020
johnbright wrote: > Dave Anders did something like this on his SDS EFI RV-4: > > http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=1191654&postcount=140 > > With 2 fuel pumps, 1 running from main bus and 1 running on bat bus, requiring a simultaneous failure of two alternators and battery failure, I've made my peace with the odds of losing both pumps to the nozzle (attached) mounted in intake plenum, teed into the recirc line,and controlled by a solenoid valve. YMMV Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494522#494522 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/back_up_nozzle_191.png ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 29, 2020
user9253 wrote: > What if the smoke in the cockpit is coming from Com 1? > I suggest removing Com 1 from the engine bus. Thanks Joe, FWIW the engine bus in my post from Jan 27, 2020 above seems to meet FAR 23.1361. Nothing is ideal but I lean toward keeping com 1 on the engine bus. Com 1 is 3 A max, Dynon D6 0.9A max. Sec. 23.1361 Master switch arrangement: (a) There must be a master switch arrangement to allow ready disconnection of each electric power source from power distribution systems, except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section. The point of disconnection must be adjacent to the sources controlled by the switch arrangement. If separate switches are incorporated into the master switch arrangement, a means must be provided for the switch arrangement to be operated by one hand with a single movement. (b) Load circuits may be connected so that they remain energized when the master switch is open, if the circuits are isolated, or physically shielded, to prevent their igniting flammable fluids or vapors that might be liberated by the leakage or rupture of any flammable fluid system; and (1) The circuits are required for continued operation of the engine; or (2) The circuits are protected by circuit protective devices with a rating of five amperes or less adjacent to the electric power source. (3) In addition, two or more circuits installed in accordance with the requirements of paragraph (b)(2) of this section must not be used to supply a load of more than five amperes. (c) The master switch or its controls must be so installed the switch is easily discernible and accessible to a crew member. -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F Dual Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494523#494523 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Protecting the fat wires
From: "Randy C-GRPY" <rpulis(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Jan 31, 2020
Hello all! This is my first time posting on this list so I'd like to introduce myself and say hello. I also have a question that I posted on Facebook. It was suggested that I post the query here. How do you determine which fat wires need circuit protection of some sort? All of the branch circuits off of a bus get a fuse or a breaker, but what about the wires feeding the busses from the contactors? Mr. Nuckolls diagrams sometimes have protection for the larger wires but most often not. I read Aeroelectric Connection in the past and I think that he addressed this but I cant find it. Ausmans book also only talks specifically about protecting branch circuits. Can anybody school me on this? Somebody pointed out, and I do remember reading, that the fat wires will ground to airframe and burn a hole rather than burning the wire itself. It seems to me that the airframe is the fuse. Why not just use an ANL? Thanks Randy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494548#494548 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation
From: "Randy C-GRPY" <rpulis(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Jan 31, 2020
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > At 02:33 PM 1/23/2020, you wrote: > > > > > Thanks Bob, > > > > I do understand, as importantly shown in the N811HB accident investigation, that failures that have no effect on the current flight should be detected before the next flight! Those unfamiliar with N811HB may well learn more than one lesson at http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Accidents/N811HB_Feb2008_LA-IVp/ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Accidents/N811HB_Feb2008_LA-IVp/) > > > > This is an example of a system that was DESIGNED > to fail. The builder attended one of my seminars > out in Eugene OR some years earlier. Had the book. > Was assisted by a degreed engineer neighbor. > > The same neighbor adapted Z-14 as a recommended > architecture for a high performance airplane > carrying a full-up compliment of Garmin glass . . . > but then ignored the advice offered by his > own recommendations by bringing BOTH ignitions > to a common bus with a poorly crafted constellation > of protective devices. > > The whole point of the Z14 philosophy is > independent redundancy . . . but lost in > this airplane by adding a feature that negated > that philosophy in a catastrophic way. The > feature? A dual diode feed common bus for > both ignitions. > > If they had simply subscribed to this List > and run the ideas past the members, the error > would have most certainly been avoided with advice > from numerous members. > > > > I am planning an O-360 with dual SDS ignition and injection. Part of my approach is to develop a detailed schematic of what it takes to keep the engine running, have a radio, and have a "six pack" of instruments long enough to make an alternate airport with the main contactors open (Z-14 derivative). I plan an engine bus with dual feeds, one from each battery via Schottky diodes; loss of one feed is preflight detectable using EFIS voltmeters. > > Why dual feed bus? Run half the engine > goodies from one battery bus, the rest > from the opposite battery bus. > > These busses are already QUAD feed. > either bus has the opportunity to power > up from a total of 4 sources. No single > failure will deprive BOTH busses of > a robust energy source. > > > > > I do a wire by wire failure analysis that informs the preflight checklist: > > Assume only one failure per flight. > > What are the effects of a wire shorted or open? > > Wires, bus bars and most power distribution > components are considered to be exceedingly > low failure rate . . . those kinds of things > are generally never a part of the system > reliability study. > > > > Does the failure affect safety? If so, can the safety effect be designed out?How will the failure be discovered before the next flight? > > This is important for failures that may not be > obvious in flight . . . for example a light > bulb in a warning system, exterior lamps, > back up pumps for the engine driven mechanical > pump, etc. One might suffer a failure that > would go unnoticed unless explored as part > of a pre-flight process. > > > > If the failure affects flight safety, can something be done about it? > > Have an alternative . . . i.e. plan-B . . . > a way to do without that accessory. > > > > How will the crew know what to do? Can they do it immediately by simple predetermined actions? > > You betcha . . . that's what the FEMA and architecture > refinement is all about. The design goal is to be able > to tolerate failure of any LRU (line replaceable unit) > with the least possible work load on crew. Z-14, for all > it's robustness, only has three switches to fiddle with. > They have NO potential for pilot-induced hazard. I.e. > no mis-positioning of switches creates immediate > hazard. > > > > In case of electrical fire can the battery contactor(s) be opened without affecting flight safety? > > Generally yes . . . I've initiated and/or completed > numerous flights in the "J-3" mode . . . ZERO > electrics. With engine feeds as recommended > above, you can shut down all DC power > management switches without affecting > engine ops. > > > > > Some failures not detectable by preflight checks are added to annual inspection: > > There should be no useful/critical accessory that is not > at least pre-flight testable . . . otherwise, > why carry it around? > > > > A fat wire short to sheetmetal that clears itself. > > Redundant grounds for both the computer and the injector driver sections of the ECUs. (Loss of computer ground sends injectors and coils 100% duty cycle.) > > Redundant grounds to voltage regulators. > > > > Some check done twice yearly: > > Ship's batteries and EFIS backup batteries capacity checks. > > Primary and aux alternator crowbar test. > > > > You've got an excellent start on the > task . . . let's keep talking. > > > > Bob . . . Good day Bob. I watched your videos with great interest related to that accident report. It was my understanding that the diode on the the feed between the two sides was what led to the current hogging that happened and which ultimately caused the whole thing to come crashing down. With Z-14, if I am understanding correctly, should not be an issue since the two sides are also isolated. Is this correct? Also, assuming proper fusing and wires, if you had two batteries powering one bus, it would be, and should be, easy to check each power feed during the preflight. I too am using Z-14 to power my SDS ignition. I posted a separate thread on how to properly choose protection for the bigger wires. I will try and post my schematic there. Thanks for being such a good resource. Regards Randy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494551#494551 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation
From: "Randy C-GRPY" <rpulis(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Jan 31, 2020
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > At 02:33 PM 1/23/2020, you wrote: > > > > > Thanks Bob, > > > > I do understand, as importantly shown in the N811HB accident investigation, that failures that have no effect on the current flight should be detected before the next flight! Those unfamiliar with N811HB may well learn more than one lesson at http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Accidents/N811HB_Feb2008_LA-IVp/ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Accidents/N811HB_Feb2008_LA-IVp/) > > > > This is an example of a system that was DESIGNED > to fail. The builder attended one of my seminars > out in Eugene OR some years earlier. Had the book. > Was assisted by a degreed engineer neighbor. > > The same neighbor adapted Z-14 as a recommended > architecture for a high performance airplane > carrying a full-up compliment of Garmin glass . . . > but then ignored the advice offered by his > own recommendations by bringing BOTH ignitions > to a common bus with a poorly crafted constellation > of protective devices. > > The whole point of the Z14 philosophy is > independent redundancy . . . but lost in > this airplane by adding a feature that negated > that philosophy in a catastrophic way. The > feature? A dual diode feed common bus for > both ignitions. > > If they had simply subscribed to this List > and run the ideas past the members, the error > would have most certainly been avoided with advice > from numerous members. > > > > I am planning an O-360 with dual SDS ignition and injection. Part of my approach is to develop a detailed schematic of what it takes to keep the engine running, have a radio, and have a "six pack" of instruments long enough to make an alternate airport with the main contactors open (Z-14 derivative). I plan an engine bus with dual feeds, one from each battery via Schottky diodes; loss of one feed is preflight detectable using EFIS voltmeters. > > Why dual feed bus? Run half the engine > goodies from one battery bus, the rest > from the opposite battery bus. > > These busses are already QUAD feed. > either bus has the opportunity to power > up from a total of 4 sources. No single > failure will deprive BOTH busses of > a robust energy source. > > > > > I do a wire by wire failure analysis that informs the preflight checklist: > > Assume only one failure per flight. > > What are the effects of a wire shorted or open? > > Wires, bus bars and most power distribution > components are considered to be exceedingly > low failure rate . . . those kinds of things > are generally never a part of the system > reliability study. > > > > Does the failure affect safety? If so, can the safety effect be designed out?How will the failure be discovered before the next flight? > > This is important for failures that may not be > obvious in flight . . . for example a light > bulb in a warning system, exterior lamps, > back up pumps for the engine driven mechanical > pump, etc. One might suffer a failure that > would go unnoticed unless explored as part > of a pre-flight process. > > > > If the failure affects flight safety, can something be done about it? > > Have an alternative . . . i.e. plan-B . . . > a way to do without that accessory. > > > > How will the crew know what to do? Can they do it immediately by simple predetermined actions? > > You betcha . . . that's what the FEMA and architecture > refinement is all about. The design goal is to be able > to tolerate failure of any LRU (line replaceable unit) > with the least possible work load on crew. Z-14, for all > it's robustness, only has three switches to fiddle with. > They have NO potential for pilot-induced hazard. I.e. > no mis-positioning of switches creates immediate > hazard. > > > > In case of electrical fire can the battery contactor(s) be opened without affecting flight safety? > > Generally yes . . . I've initiated and/or completed > numerous flights in the "J-3" mode . . . ZERO > electrics. With engine feeds as recommended > above, you can shut down all DC power > management switches without affecting > engine ops. > > > > > Some failures not detectable by preflight checks are added to annual inspection: > > There should be no useful/critical accessory that is not > at least pre-flight testable . . . otherwise, > why carry it around? > > > > A fat wire short to sheetmetal that clears itself. > > Redundant grounds for both the computer and the injector driver sections of the ECUs. (Loss of computer ground sends injectors and coils 100% duty cycle.) > > Redundant grounds to voltage regulators. > > > > Some check done twice yearly: > > Ship's batteries and EFIS backup batteries capacity checks. > > Primary and aux alternator crowbar test. > > > > You've got an excellent start on the > task . . . let's keep talking. > > > > Bob . . . Good day Bob. I watched your videos with great interest related to that accident report. It was my understanding that the diode on the the feed between the two sides was what led to the current hogging that happened and which ultimately caused the whole thing to come crashing down. With Z-14, if I am understanding correctly, should not be an issue since the two sides are also isolated. Is this correct? Also, assuming proper fusing and wires, if you had two batteries powering one bus, it would be, and should be, easy to check each power feed during the preflight. I too am using Z-14 to power my SDS ignition. I posted a separate thread on how to properly choose protection for the bigger wires. I will try and post my schematic there. Thanks for being such a good resource. Regards Randy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494550#494550 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Protecting the fat wires
From: "Randy C-GRPY" <rpulis(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Jan 31, 2020
This is my schematic. I'm looking for guidance on. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494552#494552 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/c_grpy_main_power_132.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Protecting the fat wires
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 31, 2020
Is the electrical system safer or less safe with the fat wire protected with an ANL fuse? Count the ways that fuse can fail. There are two crimps that connect the ring terminals to fat wires. There are two bolts that connect the ring terminals to the fuse. The fuse itself can blow. And there are exposed terminals that can short to ground. So installing an ANL fuse creates about 6 more possible failure modes. Why not just install the fat wire properly so that it is highly unlikely that it will short out? Use fuses instead of a VPX. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494553#494553 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Protecting the fat wires
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 31, 2020
The ANL fuse on the downstream side of the aux contactor could blow if the aux battery is used to crank the engine. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494555#494555 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 31, 2020
The diodes did not cause the failure. The 5 amp fuses did. If 20 amp circuit breakers had been used instead of 5 amp fuses, the whole bus would not have lost power. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494556#494556 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Protecting the fat wires
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 31, 2020
On 1/31/2020 12:36 PM, Randy C-GRPY wrote: > > Hello all! This is my first time posting on this list so I'd like to introduce myself and say hello. I also have a question that I posted on Facebook. It was suggested that I post the query here. > > How do you determine which fat wires need circuit protection of some sort? All of the branch circuits off of a bus get a fuse or a breaker, but what about the wires feeding the busses from the contactors? Mr. Nuckolls diagrams sometimes have protection for the larger wires but most often not. I read Aeroelectric Connection in the past and I think that he addressed this but I cant find it. Ausmans book also only talks specifically about protecting branch circuits. Can anybody school me on this? > > Somebody pointed out, and I do remember reading, that the fat wires will ground to airframe and burn a hole rather than burning the wire itself. It seems to me that the airframe is the fuse. Why not just use an ANL? > > Thanks > Randy > As Joe pointed out, you're adding multiple failure points. It's worth mentioning that it's everyday practice for the primary power feeder to be protected only by the master contactor, which is (should be) next to the battery. Tens of thousands of cert. a/c are built that way. Just about all other wires do have some type of circuit protection. I tend to agree with Joe about electronic distribution gadgets. The convenience looks attractive, but some of them have failure modes that can take the whole plane 'dark', and I'm not aware of any that publish every detail of their 'innards'. That means you don't know what you don't know. With a radio or other widget that's a 'black box', you can install a backup, but making an electronic power distribution system redundant would be a monumental task. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Protecting the fat wires
From: "Randy C-GRPY" <rpulis(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Jan 31, 2020
user9253 wrote: > The ANL fuse on the downstream side of the aux contactor could blow if the aux battery is used to crank the engine. Ahhhh.....good point. The contactors are going to be next to the batteries. With one battery in the tail there would be a large wire running to the firewall. What I am understanding from you is that that wire is protected by the contactor and no further fusing is required. How about the hot wires from the unswitched side of the contactors feeding the engine bus? Would you protect that close to the battery? I appreciate your input. Randy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494559#494559 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Protecting the fat wires
From: "Randy C-GRPY" <rpulis(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Jan 31, 2020
ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote: > On 1/31/2020 12:36 PM, Randy C-GRPY wrote: > > > > > > > > > Somebody pointed out, and I do remember reading, that the fat wires will ground to airframe and burn a hole rather than burning the wire itself. It seems to me that the airframe is the fuse. Why not just use an ANL? > > > > ThanksHello all! This is my first time posting on this list so I'd like to introduce myself and say hello. I also have a question that I posted on Facebook. It was suggested that I post the query here. > > > > How do you determine which fat wires need circuit protection of some sort? All of the branch circuits off of a bus get a fuse or a breaker, but what about the wires feeding the busses from the contactors? Mr. Nuckolls diagrams sometimes have protection for the larger wires but most often not. I read Aeroelectric Connection in the past and I think that he addressed this but I cant find it. Ausmans book also only talks specifically about protecting branch circuits. Can anybody school me on this? > > > > Randy > > > > As Joe pointed out, you're adding multiple failure points. It's worth > > > > > I tend to agree with Joe about electronic distribution gadgets. The > convenience looks attractive, but some of them have failure modes that > can take the whole plane 'dark', and I'm not aware of any that publish > every detail of their 'innards'. That means you don't know what you > don't know. With a radio or other widget that's a 'black box', you can > install a backup, but making an electronic power distribution system > redundant would be a monumental task. > > Charlie I appreciate your input. The VPX has a pretty good history so far and it serves as more than just a circuit breaker. I personally like it and it seems like a lot of users are choosing it these days. I will rethink it though. If it were to go offline, say by turning the master off, my backup is one switch that will switch to an essential bus that served by the backup alternator. At least that is what I was hoping for with the layout I designed. My panel does have a G5 with its own backup battery that will stay on even if Master and Aux power is turned off. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494560#494560 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation
From: "Randy C-GRPY" <rpulis(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Jan 31, 2020
user9253 wrote: > The diodes did not cause the failure. The 5 amp fuses did. If 20 amp circuit breakers > had been used instead of 5 amp fuses, the whole bus would not have lost power. Yes, I understand that it wasn't fused with a big enough breaker/fuse. Bob did another video in that series though that poo pooed that design even with properly sized fuses. I didn't understand why he felt it was a bad design since it is easy to check both feeds to the bus during the run up. He championed having the ignitions on two completely independent busses for which I appreciate the reasons. His design doesn't completely transfer over from what I can tell to combined ignition/fuel injection systems like SDS. So I guess the question that I would have is: Is that diode protected double fed single bus still a design waiting to fail if one does his due diligence including checking redundant power to the busses during run up and properly sizing and fusing the wires? Randy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494561#494561 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-14 implementation for electrically dependent
engine
From: "Randy C-GRPY" <rpulis(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Jan 31, 2020
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > > > > > Any other suggestions as to how to provide redundant power to all 6 fuel injectors? > > > > Thanks much! > > This is figure Z-14 . . . both main and > aux busses are already quad redundant > with virtually zero risk for total loss > of power. > > Can you point us to a schematic/wiring > diagram for the engine electrics? > > > > Bob . . . SDS's schematic.... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494562#494562 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/engine_bus_382.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Protecting the fat wires
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 31, 2020
Fat wire burns thru elevator cable... one of Bob Nuckols' stories: "Bottom line is that you're many, many times more likely to have a bad day in the cockpit for reasons far removed from a hard ground fault on your 6AWG bus feeder wire. . . and THAT because you didn't conduct due diligence in its installation. In the case of the bus feeder, the risks are not so much to the wire as to the thing the wire touches. Case in point: C90 twin turboprop on short final experiences disconnect of elevator cables. Pilot uses trim commands and power to execute go-around, assesses the condition and successfully lands the airplane with rudder, trim and power. Pulling up floorboards in the cockpit revealed a 40A protected feeder to the windshield de-ice inverter had been mis-positioned against the elevator control cable during a maintenance operation. Over what had to be many hours of operation, motion of the cable wore through the insulation bringing the cable into contact with the hot wire. The arcing and sparking was of insufficient intensity to come to attention of crew in spite of the fact that it was going on virtually under their feet. The copper wire was barely damaged. The breaker never popped while the elevator cable eventually eroded through and parted. Compare thermal properties of copper versus steel . . . this explains why the best steel safes have intermediate layers of copper in their construction. It's EASY to burn through steel . . . next to impossible on copper. This narrative explains the high order probability that even if you DID get your 6AWG feeder faulted to ground, it's most likely to be a soft fault that burns a hole in your airplane while doing little damage to the wire . . . and certainly far short of getting it to smoke and/or open a fuse/breaker. Adding 'protection' to this pathway doubles the number of joints in the pathway and adds nothing demonstrable in terms of fault response . . . which is why the spam-can builders don't do it either. ... Bob Nuckolls ..." -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F Dual Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494563#494563 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Protecting the fat wires
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Jan 31, 2020
On 1/31/2020 4:03 PM, Randy C-GRPY wrote: > > > user9253 wrote: >> The ANL fuse on the downstream side of the aux contactor could blow if the aux battery is used to crank the engine. > > Ahhhh.....good point. > > The contactors are going to be next to the batteries. With one battery in the tail there would be a large wire running to the firewall. What I am understanding from you is that that wire is protected by the contactor and no further fusing is required. > > How about the hot wires from the unswitched side of the contactors feeding the engine bus? Would you protect that close to the battery? > > I appreciate your input. > Randy My choice is to use a fuselink soldered & heatshrunk onto the battery end of the wire feeding the engine bus. Fuselinks have been quite common in the automotive world to protect things like alternator B leads. An ANL would achieve the same thing, for more money & extra failure points. Protecting the wire makes good sense; I just wanted the minimum risk of a 'false positive' circuit interruption. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 31, 2020
Randy C-GRPY wrote: > I didn't understand why he felt it was a bad design since it is easy to check both feeds to the bus during the run up... > > Randy I don't understand how this can be done. Ref attached bus schematic of N811HB. -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F Dual Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494565#494565 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/n811hb_bus_schematic_108.png ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-14 implementation for electrically dependent
engine
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 31, 2020
Randy C-GRPY wrote: > > > SDS's schematic.... Hi Randy, Some thoughts: The SDS schematic leaves out a lot of details. [list=]The ECU select switch is SPDT. If the ECUs are unswitched I don't understand how you can preflight if the injectors are working.[/list] -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F Dual Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494566#494566 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-14 implementation for electrically dependent
engine
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 31, 2020
johnbright wrote: > > Randy C-GRPY wrote: > > > > > > SDS's schematic.... > > > Hi Randy, > > Some thoughts: > > The SDS schematic leaves out a lot of details. > The ECU select switch is SPDT. > Since the ECUs are unswitched I don't understand how you can preflight if the injectors relays are working. -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F Dual Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494567#494567 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-14 implementation for electrically dependent
engine
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jan 31, 2020
johnbright wrote: > > johnbright wrote: > > > > Randy C-GRPY wrote: > > > > > > > > > SDS's schematic.... > > > > > > Hi Randy, > > > > Some thoughts: > > > > The SDS schematic leaves out a lot of details. > > The ECU select switch is SPDT. > > Since the ECUs are unswitched I don't understand how you can preflight if the injector relays are working. > -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F Dual Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494568#494568 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Protecting the fat wires
At 12:36 PM 1/31/2020, you wrote: > >Hello all! This is my first time posting on this >list so I'd like to introduce myself and say >hello. I also have a question that I posted on >Facebook. It was suggested that I post the query here. Welcome aboard my friend. This is the intellectual watering hole for a useful contingent of experienced and contemplative thinkers. >How do you determine which fat wires need >circuit protection of some sort? All of the >branch circuits off of a bus get a fuse or a >breaker, but what about the wires feeding the >busses from the contactors? Mr. Nuckolls=99 >diagrams sometimes have protection for the larger wires but most often not. I think you're referring to b-lead protection on alternators . . . this is in recognition of solid state devices (rectifiers) in alternators with a known history of faults albeit a very old one. It's now a exceedingly rate occurrence. Some cars have fusible links in their alternator b-leads. I think my Kia mini-van has several mani-ANL limiters in the battery feeders. But as a general rule, you're on solid ground with the z-figures . . . all descendants of a century of practice in TC aircraft and 30 years experience here on the List. > I read Aeroelectric Connection in the past and > I think that he addressed this but I can=99t > find it. Ausman=99s book also only talks > specifically about protecting branch circuits. Can anybody school me on this? > >Somebody pointed out, and I do remember reading, >that the fat wires will ground to airframe and >burn a hole rather than burning the wire >itself. It seems to me that the airframe is the >fuse. Why not just use an ANL? It simply adds parts count and cost that affords no practical value. A quick review of the power distribution on a couple hundred thousand TC light aircraft will confirm this design philosophy. You can add all the ANL devices that you wish, operationally they will add no risk beyond increased probability of failure due to un-warranted complexity. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation
>Good day Bob. > >I watched your videos with great interest related to that accident >report. It was my understanding that the diode on the the feed >between the two sides was what led to the current hogging that >happened and which ultimately caused the whole thing to come >crashing down. With Z-14, if I am understanding correctly, should >not be an issue since the two sides are also isolated. Is this correct? Z-14 (and all other z-figures depicting dc power feeds to ignition, fuel, injectors, etc.) show INDEPENDENT feeds to all such devices. In other words, redundant accessories never share hardware once the electrons leave the source through single feeder protection. Indeed, the guest-engineer on the project used Z-14 as a basis for a 'recommended' power distribution system that powered a full-up compliment of Garmin glass on the panel. In his published architecture, he replaced the cross-feed contator with a fat diode and ran one ignition from the main battery . . . the second ignition from the aux battery. But he failed to describe a recommended operating protocol for the two alternators. However, in the accident aircraft, fuse protected feeders from each battery was brought through diodes to a common bus whereupon power was distributed out through breakers to the two ignition systems. Bad deal. First, there was no way that loss of one battery bus fuse could be detected in pre-flight . . . which was the case leading up to this accident. Having the aux alternator off line caused the aux battery ignition feeder voltage to be LOWER than the main battery by approx .7 volts. This caused the main battery ignition fuse to carry the load for BOTH ignitions causing failure of the main fuse followed by the aux fuse hours later. Further, a fault in one system would have taken out BOTH fuses and killed both systems. If he had left out the diodes, common bus and the do-nothing breakers . . . that ship would probably be flying okay today. Lessons learned . . . diodes are handy critters for lots of applications but are SELDOM warranted in power distribution systems. I've used them in the normal feed path to an endurance bus in several figures and in Z-19 where a SINGLE ECU and FUEL PUMP configuration are provided two power sources through independent switches. Fiddle the architecture with caution . . . The latest Figure Z-12 . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z12NP1.pdf artfully crafted is as robust as anyone should need in an OBAM aircraft . . . if you really gotta have dual batteries, add Z-30. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-14 implementation for electrically dependent
engine
From: "Randy C-GRPY" <rpulis(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Feb 01, 2020
johnbright wrote: > > Randy C-GRPY wrote: > > > > > > SDS's schematic.... > > > Hi Randy, > > Some thoughts: > > The SDS schematic leaves out a lot of details. > The ECU select switch is SPDT. > Since the ECUs are unswitched I don't understand how the crew can preflight whether the injector relays are working. > I would not "combine injector power on each bank". Ya, I have to admit that I don't know anything about the internal wiring of the relays or the ECU's. In the preflight I plan on cycling each power feed to the engine bus to make sure that both are working, I'd also cycle the ECU select between 1,2, and both. The coils and fuel pumps would also be similarly checked. I would expect that if a relay or an ECU were unservicable that it would show up with those checks. Do you have a different opinion John? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494571#494571 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Protecting the fat wires
From: "Randy C-GRPY" <rpulis(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Feb 01, 2020
Thanks Bob. This simplifies things a lot with respect to wiring my aircraft. What I am understanding is that any of the fat wires, properly sized and installed on the switched side of the contactor feeding the busses will have an exceedingly low likelihood of causing problems and don't need any further protection. What about the fat wires coming directly from the battery to feed an always hot bus? (The schematic is above) I have such wires for my fuel/ignition system from two batteries. Does the same principle apply of sizing and installing the wire appropriately as being good in and of itself or should those be fused close to the battery? Thanks! Randy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494572#494572 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Protecting the fat wires
From: "Randy C-GRPY" <rpulis(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Feb 01, 2020
ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote: > On 1/31/2020 4:03 PM, Randy C-GRPY wrote: > > > > > > > > > user9253 wrote: > > > The ANL fuse on the downstream side of the aux contactor could blow if the aux battery is used to crank the engine. > > > > Ahhhh.....good point. > > > > The contactors are going to be next to the batteries. With one battery in the tail there would be a large wire running to the firewall. What I am understanding from you is that that wire is protected by the contactor and no further fusing is required. > > > > How about the hot wires from the unswitched side of the contactors feeding the engine bus? Would you protect that close to the battery? > > > > I appreciate your input. > > Randy > > My choice is to use a fuselink soldered & heatshrunk onto the battery > > > > end of the wire feeding the engine bus. Fuselinks have been quite common > in the automotive world to protect things like alternator B leads. An > ANL would achieve the same thing, for more money & extra failure points. > Protecting the wire makes good sense; I just wanted the minimum risk of > a 'false positive' circuit interruption. > > Charlie Initially I had those wires going to a breaker which I think would essentially accomplish what you suggest. I liked the idea of actually seeing that there is a problem by witnessing the tripped breaker. A fellow builder who is also an electrical engineer pointed out that if a short occurred somewhere between the breaker and battery in that setup, that there would be no way of turning off the electrons. There are a lot of examples in Bob's diagrams where those hot wires are * as "6 in or less" presumably to guard against just such a scenario. Does that not apply to the long runs supplying the bus which are much much longer than 6"? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494573#494573 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation
From: "Randy C-GRPY" <rpulis(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Feb 01, 2020
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > > > Good day Bob. > > > > I watched your videos with great interest related to that accident report. It was my understanding that the diode on the the feed between the two sides was what led to the current hogging that happened and which ultimately caused the whole thing to come crashing down. With Z-14, if I am understanding correctly, should not be an issue since the two sides are also isolated. Is this correct? > > Z-14 (and all other z-figures depicting dc power > feeds to ignition, fuel, injectors, etc.) show > INDEPENDENT feeds to all such devices. In other > words, redundant accessories never share hardware > once the electrons leave the source through > single feeder protection. > > Indeed, the guest-engineer on the project > used Z-14 as a basis for a 'recommended' > power distribution system that powered > a full-up compliment of Garmin glass > on the panel. In his published architecture, > he replaced the cross-feed contator with > a fat diode and ran one ignition from the > main battery . . . the second ignition from > the aux battery. But he failed to describe > a recommended operating protocol for the > two alternators. > > However, in the accident aircraft, fuse > protected feeders from each battery was > brought through diodes to a common bus > whereupon power was distributed out through > breakers to the two ignition systems. > > Bad deal. > > First, there was no way that loss of one > battery bus fuse could be detected in > pre-flight . . . which was the case leading > up to this accident. Having the aux alternator > off line caused the aux battery ignition feeder > voltage to be LOWER than the main battery > by approx .7 volts. This caused the main battery > ignition fuse to carry the load for BOTH > ignitions causing failure of the main fuse > followed by the aux fuse hours later. > > Further, a fault in one system would have > taken out BOTH fuses and killed both > systems. > > If he had left out the diodes, common bus > and the do-nothing breakers . . . that ship > would probably be flying okay today. > > Lessons learned . . . diodes are handy > critters for lots of applications but > are SELDOM warranted in power distribution > systems. I've used them in the normal feed > path to an endurance bus in several figures > and in Z-19 where a SINGLE ECU and FUEL > PUMP configuration are provided two power > sources through independent switches. > > Fiddle the architecture with caution . . . > > The latest Figure Z-12 . . . > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z12NP1.pdf (http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z12NP1.pdf) > > artfully crafted is as robust as anyone > should need in an OBAM aircraft . . . > if you really gotta have dual batteries, > add Z-30. > > > > Bob . . . Thanks for the detailed explanation Bob. Most builders powering the SDS system are doing it off of a single bus from two independent batteries as per manufacturers recommendation. From what you say above, this is similar to Z-19 and diodes are justified in this scenario. In my plane I do have a cross-tie and not a diode. The normal flight configuration will have X-tie open, thus effectively having two independent systems, each with an alternator to keep the batteries charged. I hope this accomplishes what you suggest as being imperative. Also, normal operation during flight would have both power feeds to the main bus hot. Is this a bad idea? Regards Randy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494574#494574 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-14 implementation for electrically dependent
engine
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Feb 01, 2020
Randy C-GRPY wrote: > ...I'd also cycle the ECU select between 1,2, and both... I would expect that if a relay or an ECU were unservicable that it would show up with those checks. Do you have a different opinion John? Hi Randy, You are using SDS dual ECU for six cylinder with fuel trim. I know the dual four cylinder wiring because I have the harness and relays. SDS does not show full schematic details in their install manuals. It looks to me as though the Normal injector switch position is relays not energized. Suppose the black wire to the common terminal of the SPDT switch was broken; engine would run in all three switch positions and pass preflight. Ref attached snip from "dual6ecurev3.pdf". -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F Dual Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494575#494575 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dual6ecurev3_snip_845.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation
>Yes, I understand that it wasn't fused with a big enough >breaker/fuse. Bob did another video in that series though that poo >pooed that design even with properly sized fuses. I didn't >understand why he felt it was a bad design since it is easy to check >both feeds to the bus during the run up. How would that be done? There were two fuses from always hot battery busses feeding a common bus . . . how does one independently verify existence of energy to for each feeder? Had they stayed with powering each ignition from it's own battery, the legacy 'mag check' would have verified independent functionality of each system. > He championed having the ignitions on two completely independent > busses for which I appreciate the reasons. His design > doesn't completely transfer over from what I can tell to combined > ignition/fuel injection systems like SDS. So I guess the question > that I would have is: Is that diode protected double fed single bus > still a design waiting to fail if one does his due diligence > including checking redundant power to the busses during run up and > properly sizing and fusing the wires? . . . but what event or combination of events will bring down power to the injectors if they were ALL driven from one bus? N811HB came down because the installed architecture: (1) failed to recognize that every bus in the system was ALREADY redundantly powered (2) failed to maintain independent power sources for EACH ignition system. (3) failed to exploit the fact that the engine would run well on EITHER ignition system. (4) added features not included in the original Z14 intended to ADD redundancy when in fact it NEGATED redundancy already in place. (5) placed undersized protective devices at risk for failure for lack of FMEA. NOTE: I've had builders bend over backwards to keep both ignition systems operating when in fact, a perfectly good plan-b for energy conservation would call for shutting one ignition system OFF during conditions of limited energy availability. So I'll repeat the question. Suppose all SDS injectors were powered from one bus . . . each protected by its own fuse. What failure condition would bring down power necessary to kill the engine? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Protecting the fat wires
At 10:22 AM 2/1/2020, you wrote: > >Thanks Bob. This simplifies things a lot with respect to wiring my aircraft. > >What I am understanding is that any of the fat wires, properly sized >and installed on the switched side of the contactor feeding the >busses will have an exceedingly low likelihood of causing problems >and don't need any further protection. Exactly . . . >What about the fat wires coming directly from the battery to feed an >always hot bus? (The schematic is above) I have such wires for my >fuel/ignition system from two batteries. Does the same principle >apply of sizing and installing the wire appropriately as being good >in and of itself or should those be fused close to the battery? The z-figures mark such feeders with an (*) meaning 6" or less . . . or at least as short as practical. There is nothing wrong with having battery bus fuse blocks located adjacent to battery contactors. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Protecting the fat wires
> >Initially I had those wires going to a breaker which I think would >essentially accomplish what you suggest. I liked the idea of >actually seeing that there is a problem by witnessing the tripped breaker. But what would be your FIRST clue? What event would prompt you to scan the breaker panel? > A fellow builder who is also an electrical engineer pointed out > that if a short occurred somewhere between the breaker and battery > in that setup, that there would be no way of turning off the > electrons. There are a lot of examples in Bob's diagrams where > those hot wires are * as "6 in or less" presumably to guard against > just such a scenario. Does that not apply to the long runs > supplying the bus which are much much longer than 6"? FAT wires capable of many hundreds of amps are (1) few in number and (2) installed with special attention to low risk for mechanical damage. Less- than-fat feeders to battery busses are recommended compliant with design goal (2) by keeping them short. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Protecting the fat wires
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 01, 2020
On 2/1/2020 10:33 AM, Randy C-GRPY wrote: > > > ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote: >> On 1/31/2020 4:03 PM, Randy C-GRPY wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> user9253 wrote: >>>> The ANL fuse on the downstream side of the aux contactor could blow if the aux battery is used to crank the engine. >>> Ahhhh.....good point. >>> >>> The contactors are going to be next to the batteries. With one battery in the tail there would be a large wire running to the firewall. What I am understanding from you is that that wire is protected by the contactor and no further fusing is required. >>> >>> How about the hot wires from the unswitched side of the contactors feeding the engine bus? Would you protect that close to the battery? >>> >>> I appreciate your input. >>> Randy >>> My choice is to use a fuselink soldered & heatshrunk onto the battery >>> >> end of the wire feeding the engine bus. Fuselinks have been quite common >> in the automotive world to protect things like alternator B leads. An >> ANL would achieve the same thing, for more money & extra failure points. >> Protecting the wire makes good sense; I just wanted the minimum risk of >> a 'false positive' circuit interruption. >> >> Charlie > > Initially I had those wires going to a breaker which I think would essentially accomplish what you suggest. I liked the idea of actually seeing that there is a problem by witnessing the tripped breaker. A fellow builder who is also an electrical engineer pointed out that if a short occurred somewhere between the breaker and battery in that setup, that there would be no way of turning off the electrons. There are a lot of examples in Bob's diagrams where those hot wires are * as "6 in or less" presumably to guard against just such a scenario. Does that not apply to the long runs supplying the bus which are much much longer than 6"? > My understanding of the '6" rule' (like the battery bus, etc) is that we're keeping the unprotected section of wire quite short, and enduring that it's in a protected area where it can't be inadvertently brought into contact with structure or objects that can short out the terminals. By doing this, we're driving the risk of having a problem with that unprotected wire to near zero. All wires leaving the bus would be protected by fuses/breakers. I'd say that your engineer friend's thoughts were correct. The conventional alternative would be to place the bus near the battery (6" rule) and make fused runs to each switch from that bus. My choice for the engine bus was to mimic the the alternator B lead protection: I placed a fuse link (you could use an ANL, if desired) at the battery end of the wire that supplies power to the main ignition switch and subsequently to the engine bus. The time constant of fuse links & ANLs are so long that unlike a regular fuse, short-term current spikes from bringing the bus on line should never fatigue the protection into failure. The feeder is still protected from catastrophic fault. My choice exceeds the fairly common practice of limiting always-hot feeds to around 3 amps. But the feed is only around 30" long, and the idea is not unprecedented; many older certified a/c (with smaller electrical systems) had under-seat or baggage compartment batteries with an always-hot feeder all the way to the instrument panel mounted high current master switch (no contactor at the battery). Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Protecting the fat wires
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 01, 2020
Mount 40 amp automotive relays (B&C S8009-1) within 3" of battery positive posts. Connect 14 AWG between battery positive and relay. This 14 AWG wire will serve as a fuselink. No fuses needed. Connect the relay output to the engine bus with 10 AWG. Diodes could be installed per your diagram, but they are not required. The pilot can control which battery is connected to the engine bus by turning on one or both relays. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494580#494580 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation
From: "Randy C-GRPY" <rpulis(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Feb 01, 2020
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > > > Yes, I understand that it wasn't fused with a big enough breaker/fuse. Bob did another video in that series though that poo pooed that design even with properly sized fuses. I didn't understand why he felt it was a bad design since it is easy to check both feeds to the bus during the run up. > > How would that be done? There were two fuses > from always hot battery busses feeding a common > bus . . . how does one independently verify > existence of energy to for each feeder? > > Had they stayed with powering each ignition > from it's own battery, the legacy 'mag check' > would have verified independent functionality > of each system. > > > > He championed having the ignitions on two completely independent busses for which I appreciate the reasons. His design doesn't completely transfer over from what I can tell to combined ignition/fuel injection systems like SDS. So I guess the question that I would have is: Is that diode protected double fed single bus still a design waiting to fail if one does his due diligence including checking redundant power to the busses during run up and properly sizing and fusing the wires? > > . . . but what event or combination of events > will bring down power to the injectors if they > were ALL driven from one bus? > > N811HB came down because the installed architecture: > > (1) failed to recognize that every bus in the > system was ALREADY redundantly powered > > (2) failed to maintain independent power sources > for EACH ignition system. > > (3) failed to exploit the fact that the engine > would run well on EITHER ignition system. > > (4) added features not included in the original > Z14 intended to ADD redundancy when in fact > it NEGATED redundancy already in place. > > (5) placed undersized protective devices at > risk for failure for lack of FMEA. > > NOTE: I've had builders bend over backwards > to keep both ignition systems operating when > in fact, a perfectly good plan-b for energy > conservation would call for shutting one > ignition system OFF during conditions of > limited energy availability. > > So I'll repeat the question. Suppose all SDS > injectors were powered from one bus . . . each > protected by its own fuse. What failure condition > would bring down power necessary to kill the > engine? > > > Bob . . . With their design I can't see how either. However, could they have installed a switch or an appropriately sized relay for each of the main feeds so that each could be turned on and off in sequence? As for the SDS, I think we are on the same page but maybe not. You've said that the bus and the feeding wires properly installed are incredibly reliable. I think that it is therefore safe to run all of the injectors (each properly protected), as well as the other components (also properly protected) off of a single bus that has two useable power feeds as the manufacturer has designed. No single battery or alternator failure will bring the house down. So to answer your last question in a different way, I don't think anything other than failure of the battery, the feeding wire, or the bus bar would kill the engine. Boy I hope that I'm not being thick headed with this. Thanks for your patience. Randy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494581#494581 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Protecting the fat wires
From: "Randy C-GRPY" <rpulis(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Feb 01, 2020
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > > > > > Initially I had those wires going to a breaker which I think would essentially accomplish what you suggest. I liked the idea of actually seeing that there is a problem by witnessing the tripped breaker. > > But what would be your FIRST clue? What > event would prompt you to scan the breaker > panel? > > > > A fellow builder who is also an electrical engineer pointed out that if a short occurred somewhere between the breaker and battery in that setup, that there would be no way of turning off the electrons. There are a lot of examples in Bob's diagrams where those hot wires are * as "6 in or less" presumably to guard against just such a scenario. Does that not apply to the long runs supplying the bus which are much much longer than 6"? > > FAT wires capable of many hundreds of > amps are (1) few in number and (2) > installed with special attention to > low risk for mechanical damage. Less- > than-fat feeders to battery busses are > recommended compliant with design goal (2) by > keeping them short. > > > Bob . . . There may not be a clue while in flight other than perhaps periodically scanning the breaker and seeing it popped. It would definitely be obvious during the preflight checklist if done correctly. Ok. I understand the difference between overweight wire (14AWG) and morbidly obese wire (#2 AWG) and that each has different needs. If it weren't practical to have the always battery bus immediately adjacent to the battery, is a fusible link or an inline fuse acceptable? Randy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494582#494582 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Protecting the fat wires
From: "Randy C-GRPY" <rpulis(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Feb 01, 2020
user9253 wrote: > Mount 40 amp automotive relays (B&C S8009-1) within 3" of battery positive > posts. Connect 14 AWG between battery positive and relay. This 14 AWG > wire will serve as a fuselink. No fuses needed. Connect the relay output to > the engine bus with 10 AWG. Diodes could be installed per your diagram, but > they are not required. The pilot can control which battery is connected to the > engine bus by turning on one or both relays. The diodes were suggested by an electrical engineer and fellow builder to mitigate a risk of high current flowing between the batteries if both feeds were on simultaneously. My understanding was that this could cause problems with the fuses that I initially had on those lines, but am now going to omit based on the previous discussion. Thanks for the info and the ideas! They are valued. Randy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494583#494583 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-14 implementation for electrically dependent
engine
From: "Randy C-GRPY" <rpulis(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Feb 01, 2020
johnbright wrote: > > Randy C-GRPY wrote: > > ...I'd also cycle the ECU select between 1,2, and both... I would expect that if a relay or an ECU were unservicable that it would show up with those checks. Do you have a different opinion John? > > > Hi Randy, > > You are using SDS dual ECU for six cylinder with fuel trim. I know the dual four cylinder wiring because I have the harness and relays. SDS does not show full schematic details in their install manuals. It looks to me as though the Normal injector switch position is relays not energized. Suppose the black wire to the common terminal of the SPDT switch was broken; engine would run in all three switch positions and pass preflight. Ref attached snip from "dual6ecurev3.pdf". I'm not sure that I'm following correctly. That switch determines whether the injectors are running off of one or the other ECU or both (each taking three injectors). If you were on both and that wire were broken I'm not sure why the engine would continue to run normally. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494584#494584 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Protecting the fat wires
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 01, 2020
There could be low current between two batteries connected in parallel, but high current is very unlikely. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494585#494585 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-14 implementation for electrically dependent
engine
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Feb 01, 2020
Randy C-GRPY wrote: > > > I'm not sure that I'm following correctly. That switch determines whether the injectors are running off of one or the other ECU or both (each taking three injectors). If you were on both and that wire were broken I'm not sure why the engine would continue to run normally. Hi Randy, I don't have the relays and harness in hand to 100% verify but I imagine:The Normal injector switch position is relays not energized. The Primary position energizes a relay to take three injectors off the backup ECU and put them on the primary ECU, injectors paralleled in pairs. The Backup position energizes a relay to take three injectors off the primary ECU and put them on the backup ECU, injectors paralleled in pairs. There is also a Mixture Knob Relay. Perhaps that disables cylinder trim. -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F Dual Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494586#494586 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation
> > > So I'll repeat the question. Suppose all SDS > > injectors were powered from one bus . . . each > > protected by its own fuse. What failure condition > > would bring down power necessary to kill the > > engine? > > >With their design I can't see how either. However, could they have >installed a switch or >an appropriately sized relay for each of the main feeds so that each >could be turned on >and off in sequence? Sure . . . but consider that this increases parts count, some of which have moving parts and arcing contacts. All this fuss to raise confidence in a battery, alternator or bus structure? Would it not be more elegant to provide a redundantly robust source delivered from a single distribution point wherein no additional hardware (or pilot workload) is built into the system? >As for the SDS, I think we are on the same page but maybe >not. You've said that the >bus and the feeding wires properly installed are incredibly reliable. I think >that it is therefore safe to run all of the injectors (each properly >protected), >as well as the other components (also properly protected) off of a single bus >that has two useable power feeds as the manufacturer has designed. >No single battery or alternator failure will bring the house down. So to >answer your last question in a different way, I don't think anything other >than failure of the battery, the feeding wire, or the bus bar would >kill the engine. > >Boy I hope that I'm not being thick headed with this. Thanks for >your patience. No problem . . .that's what we do here. You are correct. Put yourself in the shoes of an accessory designer/ manufacturer wherein the target market consists of end users . . . consumers. While more understanding of things technical, their range of skills covers a lot of ground most of which isn't herding electrons. So what's the best advice you can offer your customer with respect to keeping YOUR rather critical piece of hardware operating? It's this kind of worrying that gave birth to Lightspeed's main/aux battery recommendations which were duplicated in other products. It prompted some suppliers to incorporate standby batteries right into their product. It has encouraged the sales and incorporation of countless standby batteries in OBAM aircraft. The same philosophy drove sales of hundreds if not thousands of 'flight bag batteries' in the TC world. I recall a vendor at OSH hawking one of the earliest examples of an AGM battery along with a cable to plug it into the ship's cigar lighter. The idea was that when the panel goes dark, you can turn the generator/ alternator and battery off then plug this device in to get some stuff running again. No STC required . . . not permanently installed. 12 pounds of dead-weight carried around in the cockpit . . . for what? A hedge against failure in a CERTIFIED system that place the mission, hardware and people at risk. Ugh! Garmin stepped up to their worries by consideration of Z-14 as a recommended architecture for OBAM aircraft installations of their products . . . but stepped into the tar-pit with ill-considered 'adjustments'. While well meaning (and perhaps self serving for reducing liabilities) any attempt to keep ONE product energy independent doesn't account a real need to keep LOTS if not ALL products working. The obvious solution is to ditch all the electro-whizzy supplier's notions of back-up systems and concentrate on a failure-tolerant architecture that supports most if not all the electro-whizzies. Design goals should include minimized parts count which goes to increased reliability, reduced work load and decreased cost of ownership. If it's a good thing to worry about keeping sparks and pumps running . . . is it any less important to keep other things running too? Especially when boring holes in clouds, overflying mountains at night or hauling a cabin full of fellow travelers? I suggest it's far more elegant to ditch all back-up systems targeted to support one critical system in favor of one system designed with the greatest reverence for artful FMEA and craftsmanship. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Earl Schroeder <n233ee(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation
Date: Feb 02, 2020
Begin forwarded message: > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> > Date: February 2, 2020 at 7:44:27 AM CST > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Proposed Z-14 implementation > Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > > > > I suggest it's far more elegant to ditch > all back-up systems targeted to support one > critical system in favor of one system > designed with the greatest reverence > for artful FMEA and craftsmanship. > > Bob . . . > Hear Hear !! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Krea Ellis <krea.ellis(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Z-14 for electrically dependent engine
Date: Feb 02, 2020
Again, apologies for having to use email to post to the forum. Ive registered and reached out to Matt a couple of times, but I still cannot log in and post directly. Most of my emails bounce back too - although it appears someone is receiving them. Mr. Nuckolls and the others posting - thank you for your continued input on the work we are all attempting for a safe implementation of a redundant and/or reliable electrical system for our electrically dependent engines. I really appreciate the lack of comments like just install magnetos or pMags and mechanical fuel injection somewhat common on other forums. Here are a couple of points and questions that may have been covered, but I would like to reiterate. 1. At least with SDS on the 6 cylinder installations, providing independent power sources to the fuel pumps, coil packs and ECUs is very straightforward using the Z-14 architecture. Confirmation of proper operation of each component prior to flight is also easily carried out. 2. As there is no redundancy with the fuel injectors and since they are powered by the airframe, independent, redundant power is more difficult and/or complex. Loss of an injector (or bank of injectors) is easily determined at any time, but difficult to remedy during flight. Good news is that the injectors are very reliable (assuming competent installation). 3. A dual bus fed diode protected engine or injector bus violates the very pure separation that exists in Z-14, but as of right now - there are no dual power source alternatives of which I am aware. I am using the term power source as a single battery and alternator fed bus. 4. A single bus could be utilized for all injectors, but would provide no alternative in the event of a loss of that one main bus. This would be the simplest approach I believe, but provides less redundancy. Also less potential failure points, but which bus of the two available do you use? I am working with the folks at SDS on a scheme for providing a passive power path to the injectors with each bank being fed independently and alternate paths (using a more complex arrangement) to switch all injectors to one bus or the other if needed due to the loss of one bus or the other. The downside of this approach will clearly be additional components that will have failure points. The counter to that these components will likely be very similar to those already used and tested by SDS for the injector signal paths. Loss of signal (ground) paths or loss of power is equally problematic in any SDS type installation. More info to come hopefully later this week from SDS and I continue to lose sleep over this issue. Probably overthinking this and as I have to remind myself - we are not building Part 25 Transport Category Airplanes. Thank you! Krea Ellis ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-14 for electrically dependent engine
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 02, 2020
On 2/2/2020 9:17 AM, Krea Ellis wrote: > > Again, apologies for having to use email to post to the forum. Ive registered and reached out to Matt a couple of times, but I still cannot log in and post directly. Most of my emails bounce back too - although it appears someone is receiving them. > > Mr. Nuckolls and the others posting - thank you for your continued input on the work we are all attempting for a safe implementation of a redundant and/or reliable electrical system for our electrically dependent engines. > > I really appreciate the lack of comments like just install magnetos or pMags and mechanical fuel injection somewhat common on other forums. > > Here are a couple of points and questions that may have been covered, but I would like to reiterate. > > 1. At least with SDS on the 6 cylinder installations, providing independent power sources to the fuel pumps, coil packs and ECUs is very straightforward using the Z-14 architecture. Confirmation of proper operation of each component prior to flight is also easily carried out. > 2. As there is no redundancy with the fuel injectors and since they are powered by the airframe, independent, redundant power is more difficult and/or complex. Loss of an injector (or bank of injectors) is easily determined at any time, but difficult to remedy during flight. Good news is that the injectors are very reliable (assuming competent installation). > 3. A dual bus fed diode protected engine or injector bus violates the very pure separation that exists in Z-14, but as of right now - there are no dual power source alternatives of which I am aware. I am using the term power source as a single battery and alternator fed bus. > 4. A single bus could be utilized for all injectors, but would provide no alternative in the event of a loss of that one main bus. This would be the simplest approach I believe, but provides less redundancy. Also less potential failure points, but which bus of the two available do you use? > > I am working with the folks at SDS on a scheme for providing a passive power path to the injectors with each bank being fed independently and alternate paths (using a more complex arrangement) to switch all injectors to one bus or the other if needed due to the loss of one bus or the other. The downside of this approach will clearly be additional components that will have failure points. The counter to that these components will likely be very similar to those already used and tested by SDS for the injector signal paths. Loss of signal (ground) paths or loss of power is equally problematic in any SDS type installation. > > More info to come hopefully later this week from SDS and I continue to lose sleep over this issue. Probably overthinking this and as I have to remind myself - we are not building Part 25 Transport Category Airplanes. > > Thank you! > > Krea Ellis Hi Krea, 1st, I have *always* used email for this list/forum. When it started, there was no forum format; it was purely email exchanges with an archive of the emails. I realize that it isn't exactly '21st century', but it can have the advantage of being able to retain a record of important emails on members' local systems. So if you can post via email, roll with it. On your concerns about various engine bus redundancies: FWIW, when I struggled with designing my alt engine stuff and ran into a seemingly insurmountable issue/conflict, I eventually would come back to looking at what's been done for decades in 'traditional' engine systems. I came to realize that there is a single fuel delivery system, and while there is a backup fuel pump, almost all traditional installations have failure modes where *either* pump could fail the entire fuel delivery system. Only the ignition system is truly redundant (and with the old 'dual mag' modules, even that can be doubtful). I finally realized that with reasonable 'best practices' when installing the engine bus (which is simply a ATC fuse block), there just isn't anything that can cause the bus itself, in its entirety, to fail. The only thing that could bring down the entire bus would be the supply to the bus. A 2nd source of power to the bus remedies that issue. If the single 10-32 stud feeding the bus is a real concern, the most common ATC fuse bus is relatively easy to modify to add a 2nd 10-32 stud at the other end of the bus. With all my engine 'stuff' on one engine bus, backup is now down to flipping one, or at most two, switches. Whenever I'm pondering multi-step, multi-layer troubleshooting in the air, I try to remember the highly trained multi-person airline crew that flew an airliner into the ground while running through checklists and flipping breakers. The biggest thing that bothers me about my alt engine installation is the more complex switchology and significant operational differences from the systems I (and everyone else) have spent decades flying. You're not going to be comfortable with your system until you're comfortable with it. But it might be worth stepping back and looking 'big picture' for a bit. Checking every detail should happen, but sometimes our initial premise may need re-evaluation. There are one or two of my basic premises I'm currently rethinking a bit.... Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-14 for electrically dependent engine
> >3. A dual bus fed diode protected engine or >injector bus violates the very =9Cpure=9D >separation that exists in Z-14, but as of right >now - there are no dual power source >alternatives of which I am aware. I am using the >term =9Cpower source=9D as a single battery and alternator fed bus. >4. A single bus could be utilized for all >injectors, but would provide no alternative in >the event of a loss of that one main bus. How would that happen? EVERY branch feeder in Z-14 is QUAD sourced until some component fails in flight (an exceedingly rare event). Two distribution busses (main and aux) remain at least DUAL sourced and sometimes TRIPLE sourced depending on nature of failure. Complete loss of power on either bus just doesn't happen . . . Z-12 (revised) is another solid option where a single bus is TRIPLE fed and no less than DUAL fed after loss of a single component. > This would be the simplest approach I believe, > but provides less redundancy. Also less > potential failure points, but which bus of the two available do you use? take your pick . . . it doesn't matter. >I am working with the folks at SDS on a scheme >for providing a passive power path to the >injectors with each bank being fed independently >and alternate paths (using a more complex >arrangement) to switch all injectors to one bus >or the other if needed due to the loss of one bus or the other. >The downside of this approach will clearly be >additional components that will have failure >points. The counter to that these components >will likely be very similar to those already >used and tested by SDS for the injector signal >paths. Loss of signal (ground) paths or loss of >power is equally problematic in any SDS type installation. > >More info to come hopefully later this week from >SDS and I continue to lose sleep over this >issue. Probably overthinking this and as I have >to remind myself - we are not building Part 25 Transport Category Airplanes. Can you suggest that SDS contact me with a goal of collaborating on a unified approach to minimizing risks? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-14 for electrically dependent engine
> >1st, I have *always* used email for this list/forum. When it >started, there was no forum format; it was purely email exchanges >with an archive of the emails. I realize that it isn't exactly '21st >century', but it can have the advantage of being able to retain a >record of important emails on members' local systems. So if you can >post via email, roll with it. I have always used the email portal except when participating away from the office . . . perhaps on a computer not belonging to me. Threads are seamless, locally archived and easy to trim. I have copies of threads going back about 15 years that are easily searched for content. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Krea Ellis <krea.ellis(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Z-14 implementation
Date: Feb 02, 2020
Clearly, my emails are getting through even though I get a reply from the server that they are being rejected. Thanks for all the valuable information and thoughtful responses. You're not going to be comfortable with your system until you're comfortable with it. But it might be worth stepping back and looking 'big picture' for a bit. Checking every detail should happen, but sometimes our initial premise may need re-evaluation. There are one or two of my basic premises I'm currently rethinking a bit.... Charlie Agreed and I am stepping back and working hard to overcome the concerns about multiple redundancies. Years of flying big iron I guess and a fear about new ground (at least for me) with SDS. How would that happen? EVERY branch feeder in Z-14 is QUAD sourced until some component fails in flight (an exceedingly rare event). Two distribution busses (main and aux) remain at least DUAL sourced and sometimes TRIPLE sourced depending on nature of failure. Complete loss of power on either bus just doesn't happen . . . Z-12 (revised) is another solid option where a single bus is TRIPLE fed and no less than DUAL fed after loss of a single component. I need to keep things in perspective. In 1000 hours of GA flying and multiple thousands of large airplanes, any electrical problems I have had have been totally controllable and I have never had total electrical failure - although there are plenty of anecdotal stories of that happening. So the risk is probably very small. I guess things are quad sourced if you assume you can close the cross tie contactor. I was hoping to do that only for start and only in a dire emergency in flight. But if the only source of power to the injectors has failed, not much to lose by closing the cross tie and hope it powers up. Screens in front are backed up by an IBBS battery and the G5 has an internal battery, so we can keep the shiny side up no matter if we are a glider. Can you suggest that SDS contact me with a goal of collaborating on a unified approach to minimizing risks? I will absolutely do that a greatly appreciate your willingness to help me (and others) through this. I am coming to the conclusion quickly that a single injector bus fed by one of the two battery busses and with a good battery and an externally regulated alternator is probably the best compromise of simplicity and reliability. I=99d still like to consider a slightly more redundant approach too. Krea ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Foghorn Inc <foghorn757(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Z-14 implementation
Date: Feb 02, 2020
Here is what I=99m working on for my SDS powered RV8. This is a work in progress. I=99m not sure about the diodes to the ENG BUS since I can control power through the switches from the BATT BUSs one at a time. The main ALT is a PP 60A internally regulated, until it fails, then I=99m going to switch to a B&C externally regulated ALT. For now I=99m going to give the PP and VPX the opportunity to run the show. Ok I=99m here to learn so help me get smarter. Jeff Parker > On 2Feb, 2020, at 13:45, Krea Ellis wrote: > > Clearly, my emails are getting through even though I get a reply from the server that they are being rejected. > > Thanks for all the valuable information and thoughtful responses. > > You're not going to be comfortable with your system until you're > comfortable with it. But it might be worth stepping back and looking > 'big picture' for a bit. Checking every detail should happen, but > sometimes our initial premise may need re-evaluation. There are one or > two of my basic premises I'm currently rethinking a bit.... > > Charlie > > Agreed and I am stepping back and working hard to overcome the concerns about multiple redundancies. Years of flying big iron I guess and a fear about new ground (at least for me) with SDS. > > How would that happen? EVERY branch feeder in Z-14 > is QUAD sourced until some component fails in flight > (an exceedingly rare event). Two distribution > busses (main and aux) remain at least DUAL sourced > and sometimes TRIPLE sourced depending on nature of failure. > > Complete loss of power on either bus just doesn't > happen . . . Z-12 (revised) is another solid > option where a single bus is TRIPLE fed and no > less than DUAL fed after loss of a single > component. > > I need to keep things in perspective. In 1000 hours of GA flying and multiple thousands of large airplanes, any electrical problems I have had have been totally controllable and I have never had total electrical failure - although there are plenty of anecdotal stories of that happening. So the risk is probably very small. > > I guess things are quad sourced if you assume you can close the cross tie contactor. I was hoping to do that only for start and only in a dire emergency in flight. But if the only source of power to the injectors has failed, not much to lose by closing the cross tie and hope it powers up. Screens in front are backed up by an IBBS battery and the G5 has an internal battery, so we can keep the shiny side up no matter if we are a glider. > > Can you suggest that SDS contact me with a > goal of collaborating on a unified approach > to minimizing risks? > > I will absolutely do that a greatly appreciate your willingness to help me (and others) through this. > > I am coming to the conclusion quickly that a single injector bus fed by one of the two battery busses and with a good battery and an externally regulated alternator is probably the best compromise of simplicity and reliability. I=99d still like to consider a slightly more redundant approach too. > > Krea ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-14 implementation
> >I guess things are quad sourced if you assume >you can close the cross tie contactor. I was >hoping to do that only for start and only in a dire emergency in flight. The whole reason for the cross-feed contactor is to PREVENT a 'dire emergency' . . . not react to one. If system components never failed, FBOs would be out of business. Tires and batteries wear out. Radios go belly up. > But if the only source of power to the > injectors has failed, not much to lose by closing the >cross tie and hope it powers up. Okay, failure of WHAT component would prompt closing the cross-tie? Will failure of that component result in instant loss of engine? > Screens in front are backed up by an IBBS > battery and the G5 has an internal battery, > so we can keep the shiny side up no matter if we are a glider. Batteries which, in my never humble opinion, only add cost of ownership and offer little benefit in terms of mission reliability. If one of these batteries is ever called upon to do it's job, it's because you probably DO HAVE a real EMERGENCY borne of poor design and/or craftsmanship. >Can you suggest that SDS contact me with a >goal of collaborating on a unified approach >to minimizing risks? > >I will absolutely do that a greatly appreciate >your willingness to help me (and others) through this. > >I am coming to the conclusion quickly that a >single injector bus fed by one of the two >battery busses and with a good battery and an >externally regulated alternator is probably the >best compromise of simplicity and reliability. >I=99d still like to consider a slightly more redundant approach too. Define 'slightly' and articulate the sequence of failure events that would bring that benefit into play. This is what failure mode effects analysis is all about. You need to have confidence in your minimally configured, well considered constellation of airframe systems. Otherwise, the benefit of a 'slightly more redundant' feature is reduced to the same utility as carrying a rabbit's foot. What you're going through here is equivalent to a process I've participated in dozens of times. They're called Preliminary and Critical Design Reviews. I've stood in front of a Power Point screen many times in a room full of Navy engineers, technicians, pilots and program managers along with other members of my project group. In my later years, I 'ran the gauntlet' and sold the idea(s) most of the time. On occasion, I took some hits. But in any case, the process was invaluable in that it prevented bad ideas from going to production. I suggest that what we're doing here has the same goals. Another goal is to eliminate the word 'emergency' from the lexicon of electrics-speak . . . we're just not going to have one. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-14 for electrically dependent engine
From: "Randy C-GRPY" <rpulis(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Feb 02, 2020
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > > > > > 3. A dual bus fed diode protected engine or injector bus violates the very pure separation that exists in Z-14, but as of right now - there are no dual power source alternatives of which I am aware. I am using the term power source as a single battery and alternator fed bus. > > 4. A single bus could be utilized for all injectors, but would provide no alternative in the event of a loss of that one main bus. > > How would that happen? EVERY branch feeder in Z-14 > is QUAD sourced until some component fails in flight > (an exceedingly rare event). Two distribution > busses (main and aux) remain at least DUAL sourced > and sometimes TRIPLE sourced depending on nature of failure. > > Complete loss of power on either bus just doesn't > happen . . . Z-12 (revised) is another solid > option where a single bus is TRIPLE fed and no > less than DUAL fed after loss of a single > component. > > > > > This would be the simplest approach I believe, but provides less redundancy. Also less potential failure points, but which bus of the two available do you use? > > take your pick . . . it doesn't matter. > > > > > I am working with the folks at SDS on a scheme for providing a passive power path to the injectors with each bank being fed independently and alternate paths (using a more complex arrangement) to switch all injectors to one bus or the other if needed due to the loss of one bus or the other.The downside of this approach will clearly be additional components that will have failure points. The counter to that these components will likely be very similar to those already used and tested by SDS for the injector signal paths. Loss of signal (ground) paths or loss of power is equally problematic in any SDS type installation. > > > > More info to come hopefully later this week from SDS and I continue to lose sleep over this issue. Probably overthinking this and as I have to remind myself - we are not building Part 25 Transport Category Airplanes. > > > Can you suggest that SDS contact me with a > goal of collaborating on a unified approach > to minimizing risks? > > > Bob . . . I emailed Ross with your offer Bob. Randy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494604#494604 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Pat Little <roughleg(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 02, 2020
Subject: GPS notch filter?
Rooting around in boxes at the hangar the other day I came across a "thingy" (technical term) with part number TED 4-70-54. Apparently it is a notch filter to stop radio harmonics interfering with GPS reception (see SkyGeek listing ). I'm using an MGL V16 radio, and GPS in the form of a Garmin G5 (internal antenna) and a SkyFYX for the ADS-B setup, plus possibly iPad on the panel and/or handhelds. The V16 will be under the passenger's seat, the SkyFYX above the passenger's head, and the G5 on the pilot's side of the panel. Airplane is a Zenith STOL CH 750. Is there any good reason to incorporate the notch filter in my design? And if so, where best to put it? Pat ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Protecting the fat wires
From: "Randy C-GRPY" <rpulis(at)shaw.ca>
Date: Feb 02, 2020
user9253 wrote: > Mount 40 amp automotive relays (B&C S8009-1) within 3" of battery positive > posts. Connect 14 AWG between battery positive and relay. This 14 AWG > wire will serve as a fuselink. No fuses needed. Connect the relay output to > the engine bus with 10 AWG. Diodes could be installed per your diagram, but > they are not required. The pilot can control which battery is connected to the > engine bus by turning on one or both relays. Joe, would a contactor within 3 of the battery also be an option? Why the automotive relay? Randy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494606#494606 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: GPS notch filter?
At 06:59 PM 2/2/2020, you wrote: >Rooting around in boxes at the hangar the other >day I came across a "thingy" (technical term) >with part number TED 4-70-54. Apparently it is a >notch filter to stop radio harmonics interfering >with GPS reception (see=C2 >SkyGe ek >listing). I'm using an MGL V16 radio, and GPS in >the form of a Garmin G5 (internal antenna) and a >SkyFYX for the ADS-B setup, plus possibly iPad >on the panel and/or handhelds. The V16 will be >under the passenger's seat, the SkyFYX above the >passenger's head, and the G5 on the pilot's side >of the panel. Airplane is a Zenith STOL CH 750. > >Is there any good reason to incorporate the >notch filter in my design? And if so, where best to put it? It would not hurt anything to install it in the antenna feedline for vhf comm. The 13th harmonic of vhf comm energy falls in close proximity to the gps signals at 1575 or so MHz. GPS signals are very weak . . . in fact you cannot generaly tune them in on a normal receiver. Their signals are literally below the atmospheric noise floor. The predictable, encoded nature of received gps signals allows digital processing to sniff out these tiny voices and make sense of them. Up until the dawn of gps implementation on civil aircraft, there was no special attention given to DO160 qualification of vhf comm transceivers to offer special protection to gps spectrum . . . after all it WAS the 13th harmonic we're fussing about. But it turns out that significant numbers of vhf comm systems already in place generated 13th harmonic energy bad enough to degrade if not snafu a gps signal. Hence, the 'gps notch' filter band-aid allowed these slightly-less-than-civilized transceivers to coexist with gps equipment on board an aircraft. In the interim, gps receiver performance has taken some quantum leaps . . . you got the things in cell phones, cameras and wrist-watches. At the same time, DO160 qualification requirements added a band of additional protection to gps spectrum. You can buy surface-mount gps notch filters to be included in your vhf-comm offering . . . and getting your DO160 blue ribbon requires that these frequencies be protected. The short answer is, you probably don't need it. But do some flight testing to see if gps signal strength values are depressed while transmitting . . . you'd want to do testing at 25 Khz steps from 120 MHz to 122 MHz . . . -OR- Check with the manufacturer of your transceiver as to compliance with CURRENT gps protection requirements . . . -OR- Stick the thing in anyhow . . . won't hurt a thing. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Protecting the fat wires
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 02, 2020
Yes, a contactor will work, but is heavier and its coil uses more current than a relay. A 40 amp relay will be adequate for fuel pumps and ignition. In either case, an arc suppression diode should be installed across the coil. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494608#494608 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Pat Little <roughleg(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 02, 2020
Subject: Re: GPS notch filter?
Thanks, Bob. As always, a very helpful and complete answer. On Sun, Feb 2, 2020 at 7:29 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 06:59 PM 2/2/2020, you wrote: > > Rooting around in boxes at the hangar the other day I came across a > "thingy" (technical term) with part number TED 4-70-54. Apparently it is a > notch filter to stop radio harmonics interfering with GPS reception (see =C3=82 SkyGeek > listing > ). > I'm using an MGL V16 radio, and GPS in the form of a Garmin G5 (internal > antenna) and a SkyFYX for the ADS-B setup, plus possibly iPad on the pane l > and/or handhelds. The V16 will be under the passenger's seat, the SkyFYX > above the passenger's head, and the G5 on the pilot's side of the panel. > Airplane is a Zenith STOL CH 750. > > Is there any good reason to incorporate the notch filter in my design? An d > if so, where best to put it? > > > It would not hurt anything to > install it in the antenna feedline > for vhf comm. The 13th harmonic > of vhf comm energy falls in close > proximity to the gps signals at 1575 > or so MHz. GPS signals are very weak . . . > in fact you cannot generaly tune them > in on a normal receiver. Their signals > are literally below the atmospheric > noise floor. > > The predictable, encoded nature of > received gps signals allows digital > processing to sniff out these tiny > voices and make sense of them. > > Up until the dawn of gps implementation > on civil aircraft, there was no special > attention given to DO160 qualification > of vhf comm transceivers to offer special > protection to gps spectrum . . . after > all it WAS the 13th harmonic we're fussing > about. > > But it turns out that significant numbers > of vhf comm systems already in place > generated 13th harmonic energy bad enough > to degrade if not snafu a gps signal. > > Hence, the 'gps notch' filter band-aid > allowed these slightly-less-than-civilized > transceivers to coexist with gps equipment > on board an aircraft. > > In the interim, gps receiver performance has > taken some quantum leaps . . . you got the > things in cell phones, cameras and wrist-watches. > At the same time, DO160 qualification requirements > added a band of additional protection to gps > spectrum. You can buy surface-mount gps notch > filters to be included in your vhf-comm > offering . . . and getting your DO160 > blue ribbon requires that these frequencies > be protected. > > The short answer is, you probably don't > need it. But do some flight testing to see > if gps signal strength values are depressed > while transmitting . . . you'd want to do > testing at 25 Khz steps from 120 MHz to > 122 MHz . . . > > -OR- > > Check with the manufacturer of your transceiver > as to compliance with CURRENT gps protection > requirements . . . > > -OR- > > Stick the thing in anyhow . . . won't hurt a thing. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: GPS notch filter?
At 06:59 PM 2/2/2020, you wrote: >Rooting around in boxes at the hangar the other >day I came across a "thingy" (technical term) >with part number TED 4-70-54. Apparently it is a >notch filter to stop radio harmonics interfering >with GPS reception (see=C2 >SkyGe ek >listing). I'm using an MGL V16 radio, and GPS in >the form of a Garmin G5 (internal antenna) and a >SkyFYX for the ADS-B setup, plus possibly iPad >on the panel and/or handhelds. The V16 will be >under the passenger's seat, the SkyFYX above the >passenger's head, and the G5 on the pilot's side >of the panel. Airplane is a Zenith STOL CH 750. > >Is there any good reason to incorporate the >notch filter in my design? And if so, where best to put it? It would not hurt anything to install it in the antenna feedline for vhf comm. The 13th harmonic of vhf comm energy falls in close proximity to the gps signals at 1575 or so MHz. GPS signals are very weak . . . in fact you cannot generaly tune them in on a normal receiver. Their signals are literally below the atmospheric noise floor. The predictable, encoded nature of received gps signals allows digital processing to sniff out these tiny voices and make sense of them. Up until the dawn of gps implementation on civil aircraft, there was no special attention given to DO160 qualification of vhf comm transceivers to offer special protection to gps spectrum . . . after all it WAS the 13th harmonic we're fussing about. But it turns out that significant numbers of vhf comm systems already in place generated 13th harmonic energy bad enough to degrade if not snafu a gps signal. Hence, the 'gps notch' filter band-aid allowed these slightly-less-than-civilized transceivers to coexist with gps equipment on board an aircraft. In the interim, gps receiver performance has taken some quantum leaps . . . you got the things in cell phones, cameras and wrist-watches. At the same time, DO160 qualification requirements added a band of additional protection to gps spectrum. You can buy surface-mount gps notch filters to be included in your vhf-comm offering . . . and getting your DO160 blue ribbon requires that these frequencies be protected. The short answer is, you probably don't need it. But do some flight testing to see if gps signal strength values are depressed while transmitting . . . you'd want to do testing at 25 Khz steps from 120 MHz to 122 MHz . . . -OR- Check with the manufacturer of your transceiver as to compliance with CURRENT gps protection requirements . . . -OR- Stick the thing in anyhow . . . won't hurt a thing. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Krea Ellis <krea.ellis(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Z14 architecture
Date: Feb 03, 2020
The whole reason for the cross-feed contactor is to PREVENT a 'dire emergency' . . . not react to one. I=99m not sure I follow this. I assumed the contactor is installed for the possibility of alternator and battery failure on one bus (or to tie the batteries together for engine start). I=99m not sure exactly how this would happen, given crowbar protection for the alternator, unless the battery was weak or the bus somehow was shorted? If the bus was shorted, then closing the cross-tie would bring the other side down too, I assume. A good preflight should discover a weak battery. My concern would be bus failure, but after a little education from you here, it sounds like properly installed busses and their wire feeds generally don=99t fail. Point taken and lessen learned if true. Okay, failure of WHAT component would prompt closing the cross-tie? Will failure of that component result in instant loss of engine? First question answered (maybe) above. As to the second question - (assume you are referring to electrical components here) - failure of the single power source injector bus. Again, starting to learn from you - I=99m going to guess your response will be that it=99s not a single power source and if well constructed, the chances of failure of both the alternator AND battery OR the bus are extremely remote? Batteries which, in my never humble opinion, only add cost of ownership and offer little benefit in terms of mission reliability. If for nothing else, the IBBS battery keeps the screens from rebooting during start - which I have seen numerous times on my RV-7 (single battery). Maybe not necessary with dual bus architecture and dual batteries cross-tied for engine start. Your thoughts? Define 'slightly' and articulate the sequence of failure events that would bring that benefit into play. Lacking a batter explanation, I would say my preference would be to have the ability to power an injector bus from either main/hot battery bus. That would be my idea of slightly more redundant. If it is possible to do so without introducing additional components that either (a) add failure points that don=99t justify their existence and (b) don=99t require test pilot type skills for intervention then that would be a great achievement. All of this exercise has happened to satisfy my concern of the loss of power to the injector bus. I=99m not well versed enough to articulate what failures might occur to require the second power source. I suggest that what we're doing here has the same goals. Another goal is to eliminate the word 'emergency' from the lexicon of electrics-speak . . . we're just not going to have one. And I am very grateful to have you and the others on this forum as a resource to help me through this fun (and sometimes trying) process. I=99m not the only one doing this right now and I think we will all benefit from the review and your experience. Krea Ellis ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Changes in education field and technology
From: "Verolla" <annykey86(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 03, 2020
Modern students have a lot of opportunities to have excellent grades without making much effort. Of course I'm talking about professional writing services (https://www.paperwritingpro.com/) and I admit that I also use the help of paper writers. This is normal if the student doesn't have enough time or knowledge to write an essay. No one wants to get bad grades. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494613#494613 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Krea Ellis <krea.ellis(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Seat heaters
Date: Feb 03, 2020
I installed these in my RV6. The '2 seats with 5Lv' model will give you what you're looking for. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Car-Seat-Heater-Kit-Carbon-Fiber-Universal-Heated -Cushion-Warmer-2-level-5-level/253250702661?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3A IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 Hope that helps, Charlie Thanks, Charlie! I will look into those. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 03, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z14 architecture
At 06:48 AM 2/3/2020, you wrote: >The whole reason for the cross-feed contactor >is to PREVENT a 'dire emergency' . . . not >react to one. > >I'm not sure I follow this. I assumed the contactor is installed >for the possibility > of alternator and battery failure on one bus . . . Alternator failure only . . . you wouldn't know if a battery 'failed' in flight and besides, properly maintained batteries don't fail . . . they get replaced at some significant point on their wear-out curve. > (or to tie the batteries together for engine start). True. This was one of the disappointments in Garmin's 'adaptation' of Z-14 in their installation manual. They replaced the cross-feed contactor with a diode. this PREVENTED exploitation of BOTH batteries to crank a 6-cyliner engine! > I'm not sure exactly how this would happen, given crowbar protection for the >alternator, unless the battery was weak Substitute 'neglected' for 'weak' >or the bus somehow was shorted? Okay . . . pick any airplane. Any suite of tools . . . then go in and 'short' any distribution component to ground. How would you do it? How would that same even occur spontaneously in an artfully assembled airplane? Answer is, they don't. In 45 years of herding electrons and chasing failure gremlins in a/c . . . I've never encountered a 'shorted' anything when it comes to power distribution hardware. Plenty of opens, burned up, cracked or simply crapped out . . . but no faults to ground precipitating broad, multi-system failures. I've not read any accident analysis where shorted bus distribution hardware initiated or contributed to a bad day in the cockpit. >If the bus was shorted, then closing the cross-tie would bring the other >side down too . . . Moot point per assertions above . . >I assume. A good preflight should discover a weak battery. No assumptions warranted . . . good preventative maintenance replaces a battery before it becomes un-airworthy. > My concern would be bus failure, but after a little education > from you here, >it sounds like properly installed busses and their wire feeds >generally don't fail. >Point taken and lessen learned if true. Correct. There are things like wing struts, prop bolts, propeller blades, control cables, elevator hinges, etc. etc. that are simply not part of the design decisions and operating (plan-b) considerations for electrical systems. While there are stories of such failures they are so rare that any such event is really big news. . . . and when you do hear of such things, there are seldom details on the chain of events that lead up to the ultimate failure. >Okay, failure of WHAT component would prompt closing >the cross-tie? Will failure of that component result >in instant loss of engine? > >First question answered (maybe) above. As to the second question - > (assume you are referring to electrical components here) - Yes >. . . failure of the single power source injector bus. Again, >starting to learn from you >- I'm going to guess your response will be that it's not a single power source >and if well constructed, the chances of failure of both the alternator AND >battery OR the bus are extremely remote? Exactly! >Batteries which, in my never humble opinion, >only add cost of ownership and offer little >benefit in terms of mission reliability. > >If for nothing else, the IBBS battery keeps the screens from rebooting >during start - which I have seen numerous times on my RV-7 (single battery). >Maybe not necessary with dual bus architecture and dual batteries cross-tied >for engine start. Your thoughts? varies from system to system, a/c to a/c . . . and we have discussed ways to fabricate an electrical system that negates brown-out effects without adding (ugh!) more batteries. >Define 'slightly' and articulate the >sequence of failure events that would >bring that benefit into play. > >Lacking a batter explanation, I would say my preference would be to have the >ability to power an injector bus from either main/hot battery bus. That would >be my idea of slightly more redundant. Z-14 as published already does that, from either the main or aux busses. Z-12 has a similar degree of robustness with a single bus. I'm not well versed enough to articulate what failures might occur to require the second power source. . . . which is a perfectly legitimate cause for concern. Ignorance is at least crippling if not dangerous. Education is neither easy or cheap. We all have to work at it. >I suggest that what we're doing here >has the same goals. Another goal is to >eliminate the word 'emergency' from the >lexicon of electrics-speak . . . we're >just not going to have one. > >And I am very grateful to have you and the others on this forum >as a resource to help me through this fun (and sometimes trying) process. That's what we do here . . . and we're pleased that you're finding value in what is offered. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gilles Thesee <gilles@elixir-aircraft.com>
Subject: Testing a strobe tube ?
Date: Feb 04, 2020
Hi all, Due to illness, one buddy is selling some hardware. What would be a simple way to test a Whelen strobe tube he bought some time ago ? No strobe power supply available, unfortunately.. Thanks for any input. -- Best regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 04, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Testing a strobe tube ?
At 05:24 AM 2/4/2020, you wrote: ><gilles@elixir-aircraft.com> > >Hi all, > >Due to illness, one buddy is selling some hardware. >What would be a simple way to test a Whelen strobe tube he bought >some time ago ? > >No strobe power supply available, unfortunately.. > >Thanks for any input. Used, new old stock? How does the tube look? Any signs of darkening glass at the electrodes within the tube? These are simply xenon filled tubes and have a VERY long shelf life. Unless there are obvious signs of usage, odds are that the tube is fine. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ron patterson <rvn8zd(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 04, 2020
Subject: Re: Z-12 implementation
Hi Bob, I am using a VPX sport that I'd like to integrate with your one battery / two alternator plan. All I need is Comm, garmin 660, one e mag, lemo plug for headset. Is there a drawing for this idea already (integrating VPX sport) somewhere? if not, Where do you recommend I go to draft the schematic? Thanks Ron P On Sun, Feb 2, 2020, 11:55 AM Krea Ellis wrote: > Clearly, my emails are getting through even though I get a reply from the > server that they are being rejected. > > Thanks for all the valuable information and thoughtful responses. > > > *You're not going to be comfortable with your system until you're > comfortable with it. But it might be worth stepping back and looking 'big > picture' for a bit. Checking every detail should happen, but sometimes ou r > initial premise may need re-evaluation. There are one or two of my basic > premises I'm currently rethinking a bit.... Charlie* > > Agreed and I am stepping back and working hard to overcome the concerns > about multiple redundancies. Years of flying big iron I guess and a fear > about new ground (at least for me) with SDS. > > > *How would that happen? EVERY branch feeder in Z-14 is QUAD sourced until > some component fails in flight (an exceedingly rare event). Two > distribution busses (main and aux) remain at least DUAL sourced and > sometimes TRIPLE sourced depending on nature of failure. Complete loss of > power on either bus just doesn't happen . . . Z-12 (revised) is another > solid option where a single bus is TRIPLE fed and no less than DUAL fed > after loss of a single component.* > > I need to keep things in perspective. In 1000 hours of GA flying and > multiple thousands of large airplanes, any electrical problems I have had > have been totally controllable and I have never had total electrical > failure - although there are plenty of anecdotal stories of that > happening. So the risk is probably very small. > > I guess things are quad sourced if you assume you can close the cross > tie contactor. I was hoping to do that only for start and only in a dire > emergency in flight. But if the only source of power to the injectors has > failed, not much to lose by closing the cross tie and hope it powers up. > Screens in front are backed up by an IBBS battery and the G5 has an > internal battery, so we can keep the shiny side up no matter if we are a > glider. > > > *Can you suggest that SDS contact me with a goal of collaborating on a > unified approach to minimizing risks? * > > I will absolutely do that a greatly appreciate your willingness to help m e > (and others) through this. > > I am coming to the conclusion quickly that a single injector bus fed by > one of the two battery busses and with a good battery and an externally r egulated > alternator is probably the best compromise of simplicity and reliability. > I=99d still like to consider a slightly more redundant approach too . > > Krea > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Testing a strobe tube ?
From: Gilles Thesee <gilles@elixir-aircraft.com>
Date: Feb 04, 2020
Le 04/02/2020 17:44, Robert L. Nuckolls, III a crit: > / > Used, new old stock? How does the > tube look? Any signs of darkening > glass at the electrodes within > the tube? > [...] > Unless there are obvious signs of > usage, odds are that the tube > is fine./ Hi Bob, Thank you for responding. Actually - I believe - new old stock. Did not see the tube myself, however here is a link to the link he - actually his wife - put on the Web : https://www.leboncoin.fr/sports_hobbies/1724492264.htm Thanks again, -- Best regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 04, 2020
From: Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Testing a strobe tube ?
xir-aircraft.com> wrote: What would be a simple way to test a Whelen strobe tube he bought some time ago ? You need thousands of volts across the terminals.=C2- Do it wrong, and yo u might not wake up next week.=C2- You might be able to hook it into a sp ark plugs circuit, counting on the coil to limit the power. . .but I wouldn 't do that unless I was willing to throw it away. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 04, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-14 for electrically dependent engine
>I am working with the folks at SDS on a scheme for providing a >passive power path to the injectors with each bank being fed >independently and alternate paths (using a more complex arrangement) >to switch all injectors to one bus or the other if needed due to the >loss of one bus or the other. Poked around on the SDS website for a few minutes and found this: Disadvantages of SDS vs. Conventional Aircraft Engine Systems The big disadvantage of EFI compared to a carb or mechanical injection and magnetos is that electrical power is required for the pump, computer, ignition and injectors. The likelihood of both the alternator and battery failing simultaneously is practically zero with standard aircraft maintenance procedures. Generally, a good battery will allow you to keep essentials powered for 20-90 minutes after an alternator failure permitting diversion to another airport. We consider proper gauges and/or warning lights to indicate an alternator failure to be very important. We have an ammeter, voltmeter, low voltage warning light and buzzer now on our RV6A and also added a backup battery in Feb. 2005. Emacs! I don't see anything that argues with the ideas and architecture philosophies we've been discussing here over the last week or so. Their assertions as to component reliability combined with the block diagram above illustrating everything running from a 'reliable' bus confirms their confidence in what's been recommended here on the List in terms of insuring a supply of DC power. I think the drawing above could be 'cleaned up' a tad and may have an error about the injector selector switch wiring . . . but I think the spirit and intent of the SDS is clear and raises no flags at this time. It also confirms my suggestion that running the entire SDS system from either main or aux bus of Z-14 or the main bus of Z-12 offers a level of redundancy I think I could sell onto a TC aircraft. I'm getting ready to hit the asphalt on a trip to visit family in Cincinatti so I'll be off-line until Sunday. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-14 for electrically dependent engine
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 04, 2020
On 2/4/2020 3:25 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > >> I am working with the folks at SDS on a scheme for providing a >> passive power path to the injectors with each bank being fed >> independently and alternate paths (using a more complex arrangement) >> to switch all injectors to one bus or the other if needed due to the >> loss of one bus or the other. > > Poked around on the SDS website for a few minutes and > found this: > > > *Disadvantages of SDS vs. Conventional > Aircraft Engine Systems* > > */The big disadvantage of EFI compared to a carb or mechanical > injection and magnetos is that electrical power is required for > the pump, computer, ignition and injectors. The likelihood of > both the alternator and battery failing simultaneously is > practically zero with standard aircraft maintenance procedures. > Generally, a good battery will allow you to keep essentials powered > for 20-90 minutes after an alternator failure permitting diversion > to another airport. We consider proper gauges and/or warning > lights to indicate an alternator failure to be very important. > We have an ammeter, voltmeter, low voltage warning light and > buzzer now on our RV6A and also added a backup battery in Feb. 2005. > > /*Emacs! > > > I don't see anything that argues with the ideas > and architecture philosophies we've been discussing > here over the last week or so. > > Their assertions as to component reliability combined > with the block diagram above illustrating everything > running from a 'reliable' bus confirms their > confidence in what's been recommended here on the > List in terms of insuring a supply of DC power. > > I think the drawing above could > be 'cleaned up' a tad and may have an error > about the injector selector switch wiring . . . > but I think the spirit and intent of the > SDS is clear and raises no flags at this > time. It also confirms my suggestion that > running the entire SDS system from either > main or aux bus of Z-14 or the main bus > of Z-12 offers a level of redundancy > I think I could sell onto a TC aircraft. > > I'm getting ready to hit the asphalt on a trip > to visit family in Cincinatti so I'll be off-line > until Sunday. > > Bob . . . > To (possibly over-) emphasize, quoting from above: *It also confirms my suggestion that running the entire SDS system from either main or aux bus of Z-14 or the main bus of Z-12 offers a level of redundancy I think I could sell onto a TC aircraft. *The injector control scheme, and the fact that the injectors are not redundant (two injectors per cylinder) seems to be what is creating the heartburn. I think I've been saying something similar; all engine stuff on one bus, with controllable redundant sources of power. It is, after all, what SDS recommends. Charlie ** ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 04, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Testing a strobe tube ?
> >You need thousands of volts across the terminals. Do it wrong, >and you might not wake up next week. You might be able to hook >it into a spark plugs circuit, counting on the coil to limit >the power. . .but I wouldn't do that unless I was willing to >throw it away. Few xenon flash tubes operate at such voltages . . . those are usually industrial sources of UV light. Our a/c strobes, vehicle emergency strobes, camera strobes operated in the 250 to 400v range. To test them, you need both a steady source of flash-voltage paralleled with an energy storage capacity -PLUS- a much higher (1 to 3 kv) trigger pulse feed to the trigger electrode. In cameras, this takes two transformers. One to provide a 200-400v charge on a capacitor . . . a second to develop the higher voltage trigger. One of the simplest strobe circuits was used in low-cost, timing lights . . . Emacs! My first one plugged into the wall and developed about 350 volts on the energy storage capacitor. The trigger pulse came from connection to the engine's #1 plug. There's no really quick/n/dirty way to test these critters other than to plug it into a functioning system. Given that its an out-of-the-box offering, the risks are low. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 04, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-14 for electrically dependent engine
> >The injector control scheme, and the fact that the injectors are not >redundant (two injectors per cylinder) seems to be what is creating >the heartburn. I think I've been saying something similar; all >engine stuff on one bus, with controllable redundant sources of >power. It is, after all, what SDS recommends. Agreed. No 'enhancements' are recommended or useful. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-14 for electrically dependent engine
From: "adamb" <adam.bezanson(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 04, 2020
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > > > > > The injector control scheme, and the fact that the injectors are not redundant (two injectors per cylinder) seems to be what is creating the heartburn. I think I've been saying something similar; all engine stuff on one bus, with controllable redundant sources of power. It is, after all, what SDS recommends. > > Agreed. No 'enhancements' are recommended > or useful. > > > Bob . . . So suppose there's smoke in the cockpit, not sure where it's coming from. A trained response is to shut off the master (both masters in the case of Z14). If the SDS stuff is on either the main or Aux busses and the masters are switched off, the engine shuts off... I'd rather the SDS components be on the battery busses to prevent this. This is the primary reason for my plan to power the ECUs, Fuel pumps, and Coils from their respective battery busses (there are 2 of each so one is fed from main battery bus and the other from aux battery bus). And provide a diode OR'ed Injector bus from the battery busses to power the injectors. Others have taken the approach of feeding all components off of a "Engine bus" redundantly powered from battery busses. Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm very uncomfortable not being able to shut off the master switches and keep the engine running. Adam Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494643#494643 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-14 for electrically dependent engine
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 04, 2020
On 2/4/2020 6:57 PM, adamb wrote: > > > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: >>> The injector control scheme, and the fact that the injectors are not redundant (two injectors per cylinder) seems to be what is creating the heartburn. I think I've been saying something similar; all engine stuff on one bus, with controllable redundant sources of power. It is, after all, what SDS recommends. >> Agreed. No 'enhancements' are recommended >> or useful. >> >> >> Bob . . . > > So suppose there's smoke in the cockpit, not sure where it's coming from. A trained response is to shut off the master (both masters in the case of Z14). If the SDS stuff is on either the main or Aux busses and the masters are switched off, the engine shuts off... > > I'd rather the SDS components be on the battery busses to prevent this. > This is the primary reason for my plan to power the ECUs, Fuel pumps, and Coils from their respective battery busses (there are 2 of each so one is fed from main battery bus and the other from aux battery bus). And provide a diode OR'ed Injector bus from the battery busses to power the injectors. > Others have taken the approach of feeding all components off of a "Engine bus" redundantly powered from battery busses. > > Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm very uncomfortable not being able to shut off the master switches and keep the engine running. > > Adam That's what I did, though my system is dual alt/single battery. Engine (all of it) is on one switched 'hot' bus, that can also be fed from the main a/c bus. Smoke emergency would be just like a traditional installation; master off & the motor keeps turning. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-14 for electrically dependent engine
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 04, 2020
I agree with you Adam. The pilot should be able to shut off all sources of electrical power at the source. Putting relays (independent of the battery contactor) between the batteries and engine bus accomplishes that. In case of smoke in the cockpit, most pilots would shut off the master switch first, expecting the engine to keep running. If the smoke gets bad enough, then electrical power to the engine bus can be shut off along with the fuel valve. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494646#494646 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Testing a strobe tube ?
From: Gilles Thesee <gilles@elixir-aircraft.com>
Date: Feb 05, 2020
/Le 04/02/2020 23:50, Robert L. Nuckolls, III a crit:// / > // /// > //There's no really quick/n/dirty way// > // to test these critters other than to// > // plug it into a functioning system.// > // > // Given that its an out-of-the-box offering,// > // the risks are low.// > / Bob and Ernest, Thank you for answering. Passing on the info to my buddy's wife. -- Best regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Subject: portable oscilloscope recommendations?
Date: Feb 05, 2020
Hi, I've been troubleshooting a serial port issue, & fired up the old Telequipment scope for the 1st time in about a decade. Spent more time bringing it out of hibernation than actually using it, and it occurred to me that at today's prices, an el-cheapo solid state scope might make sense to have next to the digital meters (or maybe, in place of...). Anyone here tried any of the sub-$100 models, or even the sub-$50 versions? Obviously not looking for lab grade here, just something mainly to detect signal presence/absence. Thanks, Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Greenley <wgreenley(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 05, 2020
Subject: Re: portable oscilloscope recommendations?
I have use the pokit meter from https://pokitmeter.com/ Multimeter, single channel scope and data logger, uses your phone as a display. On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 9:00 PM Charlie England wrote: > ceengland7(at)gmail.com> > > Hi, > > I've been troubleshooting a serial port issue, & fired up the old > Telequipment scope for the 1st time in about a decade. Spent more time > bringing it out of hibernation than actually using it, and it occurred > to me that at today's prices, an el-cheapo solid state scope might make > sense to have next to the digital meters (or maybe, in place of...). > > Anyone here tried any of the sub-$100 models, or even the sub-$50 > versions? Obviously not looking for lab grade here, just something > mainly to detect signal presence/absence. > > Thanks, > > Charlie > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Feb 05, 2020
Subject: Re: portable oscilloscope recommendations?
Charlie, When I was debugging a serial port issue, my son borrowed a logic analyzer from his office and we connected it via USB to his laptop. When clipped to the TX and RX pins, it was able to decode and display the ASCII characters being transmitted. Much more useful than a simple oscilloscope would have been. See if you can find one of these logic analyzers that hooks up to a laptop. -- Art Z. On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 8:11 PM Charlie England wrote: > ceengland7(at)gmail.com> > > Hi, > > I've been troubleshooting a serial port issue, & fired up the old > Telequipment scope for the 1st time in about a decade. Spent more time > bringing it out of hibernation than actually using it, and it occurred > to me that at today's prices, an el-cheapo solid state scope might make > sense to have next to the digital meters (or maybe, in place of...). > > Anyone here tried any of the sub-$100 models, or even the sub-$50 > versions? Obviously not looking for lab grade here, just something > mainly to detect signal presence/absence. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *Sooner meet a bereaved she-bear than a fool with his nonsense. *Proverbs 17:12 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: portable oscilloscope recommendations?
From: "Eric Page" <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Feb 05, 2020
If you truly just want to see the presence or absence of a signal, one of the cheap 1-channel Chinese scopes work pretty well. I have one of these... http://www.ebay.com/itm/163807642144 ...and it's surprisingly decent for basic troubleshooting away from your bench. It's low-bandwidth and probably isn't very accurate, but it works to see if there's activity or not. If you want to decode a serial bus to see what's happening, this is a decent option at low cost: http://www.ebay.com/itm/123355594893 Or, if you want even cheaper, there's this option: http://www.ebay.com/itm/383085783631 Eric P.S. All three links are to the lowest cost U.S. seller. All are available cheaper from China if you want to wait a few weeks. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494665#494665 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: portable oscilloscope recommendations?
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 05, 2020
Hmmm... good thought. I might consider two instruments, instead of just one. A scope would have a wider application, though. Thanks for the idea. Charlie On 2/5/2020 8:34 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > Charlie, > > When I was debugging a serial port issue, my son borrowed a logic > analyzer from his office and we connected it via USB to his laptop. > When clipped to the TX and RX pins, it was able to decode and display > the ASCII characters being transmitted. Much more useful than a simple > oscilloscopewould have been. See if you can find one of these logic > analyzers that hooks up to a laptop. > > -- Art Z. > > > On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 8:11 PM Charlie England > wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > I've been troubleshooting a serial port issue, & fired up the old > Telequipment scope for the 1st time in about a decade. Spent more > time > bringing it out of hibernation than actually using it, and it > occurred > to me that at today's prices, an el-cheapo solid state scope might > make > sense to have next to the digital meters (or maybe, in place of...). > > Anyone here tried any of the sub-$100 models, or even the sub-$50 > versions? Obviously not looking for lab grade here, just something > mainly to detect signal presence/absence. > > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > /Sooner meet a bereaved she-bear than a fool with his nonsense. > /Proverbs 17:12 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: portable oscilloscope recommendations?
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 05, 2020
Hmmm....I was more focused on a self contained instrument, but that path might actually be a better idea. I'll did through the site to evaluate. Thanks! Charlie On 2/5/2020 8:31 PM, William Greenley wrote: > I have use the pokit meter from https://pokitmeter.com/Multimeter, > single channel scope and data logger, uses your phone as a display. > > On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 9:00 PM Charlie England > wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > I've been troubleshooting a serial port issue, & fired up the old > Telequipment scope for the 1st time in about a decade. Spent more > time > bringing it out of hibernation than actually using it, and it > occurred > to me that at today's prices, an el-cheapo solid state scope might > make > sense to have next to the digital meters (or maybe, in place of...). > > Anyone here tried any of the sub-$100 models, or even the sub-$50 > versions? Obviously not looking for lab grade here, just something > mainly to detect signal presence/absence. > > Thanks, > > Charlie > ========== > br> fts!) > r> > rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > ========== > - > Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > ========== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > WIKI - > errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > ========== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
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Date: Feb 05, 2020
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Subject: Re: Protecting the fat wires
From: "Whiteleg" <ElizaWhitelegge837(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Feb 05, 2020
Thanks for sharing Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494669#494669 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: portable oscilloscope recommendations?
From: Rob Turk <matronics(at)rtist.nl>
Date: Feb 06, 2020
That's the Rolls Royce option. Does it make sense to hunt for a logic analyzer when it will likely be sitting idle for the next decade? A simple multimeter with scope option is a lot cheaper and will get more use. Rob On 2/6/2020 4:32 AM, Charlie England wrote: > Hmmm... good thought. I might consider two instruments, instead of > just one. A scope would have a wider application, though. > > Thanks for the idea. > > Charlie > > On 2/5/2020 8:34 PM, Art Zemon wrote: >> Charlie, >> >> When I was debugging a serial port issue, my son borrowed a logic >> analyzer from his office and we connected it via USB to his laptop. >> When clipped to the TX and RX pins, it was able to decode and display >> the ASCII characters being transmitted. Much more useful than a >> simple oscilloscopewould have been. See if you can find one of these >> logic analyzers that hooks up to a laptop. >> >> -- Art Z. >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 8:11 PM Charlie England > > wrote: >> >> > >> >> Hi, >> >> I've been troubleshooting a serial port issue, & fired up the old >> Telequipment scope for the 1st time in about a decade. Spent more >> time >> bringing it out of hibernation than actually using it, and it >> occurred >> to me that at today's prices, an el-cheapo solid state scope >> might make >> sense to have next to the digital meters (or maybe, in place of...). >> >> Anyone here tried any of the sub-$100 models, or even the sub-$50 >> versions? Obviously not looking for lab grade here, just something >> mainly to detect signal presence/absence. >> >> >> -- >> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >> /Sooner meet a bereaved she-bear than a fool with his nonsense. >> /Proverbs 17:12 > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: portable oscilloscope recommendations?
From: "dj_theis" <djtheis58(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 06, 2020
Quote: >Anyone here tried any of the sub-$100 models, or even the sub-$50 >versions? Obviously not looking for lab grade here, just something >mainly to detect signal presence/absence. A very capable hangar neighbor of mine showed me this unit that connects to a PC. https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope The base level unit (~$80) is quite capable and can log the the waveform and continuously convert the waveform to ASCII characters. I think this is similar (or the same) as what Art Z. described. The manufacturer offers some very high end scopes and claims to extend their quality and performance through their entire line. Ive not purchased one (yet) as my legacy big box scopes are still working but for convenience and added functionality Im looking forward for an excuse to purchasing one. Dan Theis -------- Scratch building Sonex #1362 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494676#494676 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 06, 2020
Subject: Re: portable oscilloscope recommendations?
In general, I'd agree, but a toe in the web waters found that not everything has been tariffed out of existence (yet). The 1st example I found: https://smile.amazon.com/HiLetgo-Analyzer-Ferrite-Channel-Arduino/dp/B077LS G5P2/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=1A07VX9T9OILX&keywords=logic+analyzer&qid =1580995620&sprefix=ogic+anal%2Caps%2C206&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa =ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyTzVFVUlIUVlGWlIyJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNTI2NzYy MjEzSU9FVFVPUjBLVCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwOTc0MDg3M1E5VzlKVUk4RlBZTiZ3aWRnZXR OYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU That would be less expensive than a new set of voltmeter probes. :-) And it seems to have the somewhat weird sounding advantage of *not* having batteries, since I've managed to damage several rarely used instruments by forgetting about the installed batteries. Charlie On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 1:20 AM Rob Turk wrote: > That's the Rolls Royce option. Does it make sense to hunt for a logic > analyzer when it will likely be sitting idle for the next decade? A simpl e > multimeter with scope option is a lot cheaper and will get more use. > > Rob > > On 2/6/2020 4:32 AM, Charlie England wrote: > > Hmmm... good thought. I might consider two instruments, instead of just > one. A scope would have a wider application, though. > > Thanks for the idea. > > Charlie > > On 2/5/2020 8:34 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > > Charlie, > > When I was debugging a serial port issue, my son borrowed a logic analyze r > from his office and we connected it via USB to his laptop. When clipped t o > the TX and RX pins, it was able to decode and display the ASCII character s > being transmitted. Much more useful than a simple oscilloscope would have > been. See if you can find one of these logic analyzers that hooks up to a > laptop. > > -- Art Z. > > > On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 8:11 PM Charlie England > wrote: > >> ceengland7(at)gmail.com> >> >> Hi, >> >> I've been troubleshooting a serial port issue, & fired up the old >> Telequipment scope for the 1st time in about a decade. Spent more time >> bringing it out of hibernation than actually using it, and it occurred >> to me that at today's prices, an el-cheapo solid state scope might make >> sense to have next to the digital meters (or maybe, in place of...). >> >> Anyone here tried any of the sub-$100 models, or even the sub-$50 >> versions? Obviously not looking for lab grade here, just something >> mainly to detect signal presence/absence. > > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > *Sooner meet a bereaved she-bear than a fool with his nonsense. *Prover bs > 17:12 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 06, 2020
Subject: Re: portable oscilloscope recommendations?
Hi Dan, Thanks for the link. That does look interesting, but until I get around to setting up an actual electronics bench again, my desire is for something I can easily take to the work area, like a hand-held VOM. I do have the Telequipment and also a 10 NHz Tectronics analog scope for bench work, but balancing one of them on the wing of the a/c for troubleshooting isn't fun. Charlie On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 7:39 AM dj_theis wrote: > > Quote: > >Anyone here tried any of the sub-$100 models, or even the sub-$50 > >versions? Obviously not looking for lab grade here, just something > >mainly to detect signal presence/absence. > > A very capable hangar neighbor of mine showed me this unit that connects > to a PC. > https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope > > The base level unit (~$80) is quite capable and can log the the waveform > and continuously convert the waveform to ASCII characters. I think this is > similar (or the same) as what Art Z. described. > > The manufacturer offers some very high end scopes and claims to extend > their quality and performance through their entire line. > > > I=99ve not purchased one (yet) as my legacy big box scopes are stil l working > but for convenience and added functionality I=99m looking forward f or an > excuse to purchasing one. > > Dan Theis > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: portable oscilloscope recommendations?
From: Rob Turk <matronics(at)rtist.nl>
Date: Feb 06, 2020
Be careful though. This appears to be an Arduino with some software. Cute but not up to the task for real RS-232. The inputs are standard TTL and will fry if you attach RS-232 level signals to it. You'd have to add a level shifter (MAX232 or something like it), or a limiter of some sorts. On 2/6/2020 2:42 PM, Charlie England wrote: > In general, I'd agree, but a toe in the web waters found that not > everything has been tariffed out of existence (yet). The 1st example I > found: > https://smile.amazon.com/HiLetgo-Analyzer-Ferrite-Channel-Arduino/dp/B077LSG5P2/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=1A07VX9T9OILX&keywords=logic+analyzer&qid=1580995620&sprefix=ogic+anal%2Caps%2C206&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyTzVFVUlIUVlGWlIyJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNTI2NzYyMjEzSU9FVFVPUjBLVCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwOTc0MDg3M1E5VzlKVUk4RlBZTiZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU > That would be less expensive than a new set of voltmeter probes. :-) > And it seems to have the somewhat weird sounding advantage of *not* > having batteries, since I've managed to damage several rarely used > instruments by forgetting about the installed batteries. > > Charlie > > On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 1:20 AM Rob Turk > wrote: > > That's the Rolls Royce option. Does it make sense to hunt for a > logic analyzer when it will likely be sitting idle for the next > decade? A simple multimeter with scope option is a lot cheaper and > will get more use. > > Rob > > On 2/6/2020 4:32 AM, Charlie England wrote: >> Hmmm... good thought. I might consider two instruments, instead >> of just one. A scope would have a wider application, though. >> >> Thanks for the idea. >> >> Charlie >> >> On 2/5/2020 8:34 PM, Art Zemon wrote: >>> Charlie, >>> >>> When I was debugging a serial port issue, my son borrowed a >>> logic analyzer from his office and we connected it via USB to >>> his laptop. When clipped to the TX and RX pins, it was able to >>> decode and display the ASCII characters being transmitted. Much >>> more useful than a simple oscilloscopewould have been. See if >>> you can find one of these logic analyzers that hooks up to a laptop. >>> >>> -- Art Z. >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 8:11 PM Charlie England >>> > wrote: >>> >>> > >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I've been troubleshooting a serial port issue, & fired up >>> the old >>> Telequipment scope for the 1st time in about a decade. Spent >>> more time >>> bringing it out of hibernation than actually using it, and >>> it occurred >>> to me that at today's prices, an el-cheapo solid state scope >>> might make >>> sense to have next to the digital meters (or maybe, in place >>> of...). >>> >>> Anyone here tried any of the sub-$100 models, or even the >>> sub-$50 >>> versions? Obviously not looking for lab grade here, just >>> something >>> mainly to detect signal presence/absence. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >>> /Sooner meet a bereaved she-bear than a fool with his nonsense. >>> /Proverbs 17:12 >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: portable oscilloscope recommendations?
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 06, 2020
Good point, but I just linked that item to show how stupid cheap decent test gear is getting. The 30V 10A fully adjustable voltage *and* current limiting supply I bought recently for ~$60 would have cost me at least $300 30 years ago, *in 1990 dollars*. It's almost like they're paying you to take the stuff. On 2/6/2020 11:30 AM, Rob Turk wrote: > Be careful though. This appears to be an Arduino with some software. > Cute but not up to the task for real RS-232. The inputs are standard > TTL and will fry if you attach RS-232 level signals to it. You'd have > to add a level shifter (MAX232 or something like it), or a limiter of > some sorts. > > On 2/6/2020 2:42 PM, Charlie England wrote: >> In general, I'd agree, but a toe in the web waters found that not >> everything has been tariffed out of existence (yet). The 1st example >> I found: >> https://smile.amazon.com/HiLetgo-Analyzer-Ferrite-Channel-Arduino/dp/B077LSG5P2/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=1A07VX9T9OILX&keywords=logic+analyzer&qid=1580995620&sprefix=ogic+anal%2Caps%2C206&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyTzVFVUlIUVlGWlIyJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNTI2NzYyMjEzSU9FVFVPUjBLVCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwOTc0MDg3M1E5VzlKVUk4RlBZTiZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU >> That would be less expensive than a new set of voltmeter probes. :-) >> And it seems to have the somewhat weird sounding advantage of *not* >> having batteries, since I've managed to damage several rarely used >> instruments by forgetting about the installed batteries. >> >> Charlie >> >> On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 1:20 AM Rob Turk > > wrote: >> >> That's the Rolls Royce option. Does it make sense to hunt for a >> logic analyzer when it will likely be sitting idle for the next >> decade? A simple multimeter with scope option is a lot cheaper >> and will get more use. >> >> Rob >> >> On 2/6/2020 4:32 AM, Charlie England wrote: >>> Hmmm... good thought. I might consider two instruments, instead >>> of just one. A scope would have a wider application, though. >>> >>> Thanks for the idea. >>> >>> Charlie >>> >>> On 2/5/2020 8:34 PM, Art Zemon wrote: >>>> Charlie, >>>> >>>> When I was debugging a serial port issue, my son borrowed a >>>> logic analyzer from his office and we connected it via USB to >>>> his laptop. When clipped to the TX and RX pins, it was able to >>>> decode and display the ASCII characters being transmitted. Much >>>> more useful than a simple oscilloscopewould have been. See if >>>> you can find one of these logic analyzers that hooks up to a >>>> laptop. >>>> >>>> -- Art Z. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 8:11 PM Charlie England >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I've been troubleshooting a serial port issue, & fired up >>>> the old >>>> Telequipment scope for the 1st time in about a decade. >>>> Spent more time >>>> bringing it out of hibernation than actually using it, and >>>> it occurred >>>> to me that at today's prices, an el-cheapo solid state >>>> scope might make >>>> sense to have next to the digital meters (or maybe, in >>>> place of...). >>>> >>>> Anyone here tried any of the sub-$100 models, or even the >>>> sub-$50 >>>> versions? Obviously not looking for lab grade here, just >>>> something >>>> mainly to detect signal presence/absence. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >>>> /Sooner meet a bereaved she-bear than a fool with his nonsense. >>>> /Proverbs 17:12 >>> >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 06, 2020
From: Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Charge Pump
Hello members, I'm wondering how difficult it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt charge-pum p power supply.=C2- It would need to supply about 7 amps.=C2-=C2- Here's why I'm asking... There are lots of 28v KX-155s on Ebay that are fai rly in-expensive at around $1500 compared to 12v models that can sell for u p to $1000 more. So if I could fabricate such a power supply for around $100, I would be ahe ad of the game. I'm interested in the calculations on how to size the capacitors and the fr equency to run the charge pump.=C2-=C2- Any insight is greatly appreciated,=C2- -Jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Charge Pump
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 06, 2020
On 2/6/2020 2:51 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote: > Hello members, > > I'm wondering how difficult it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt > charge-pump power supply.=C2- It would need to supply about 7 amps. > > Here's why I'm asking... There are lots of 28v KX-155s on Ebay that > are fairly in-expensive at around $1500 compared to 12v models that > can sell for up to $1000 more. > > So if I could fabricate such a power supply for around $100, I would > be ahead of the game. > > I'm interested in the calculations on how to size the capacitors and > the frequency to run the charge pump. > > Any insight is greatly appreciated, > > > -Jeff Yes, it can be done Here's how to calculate the values: Start with $100. Divide by 5.88 Go to ebay. Search '12v to 24v stepup converter'. With the result from the previous calculation, get one converter, plus a spare. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Waterproof-DC12V-to-DC-24V-20A-480W-Step-Up-Powe r-Supply-Converter-Regulator-Kit/202872549463?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash= item2f3c257057:m:mA-xAWABizqWlOLEyA6v7Nw&enc=AQAEAAACUBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CK Es3N0qUXW1%2Fq6HuXoJTIAajkTxvX%2FthCD%2BMtQ9lOxF6IWwWFRnOCDAOfp2kcY%2FayM mdc6Z2eRgn%2BFiiPY0P5BtYG1KcorbK%2FmeMRiVwLI8vEwVf0wSo9f79LRzTetEN9dtRtx6 VmJgBqd%2BQqmMO6IsoUKer6LyYxh40VjEXp1PjMj35gPvxWVWLaQ8G6O0y%2B%2B1GB%2F7h RHfA7qBtnk6bZTiFNEfuQspUJsdRqSP9OFtTDDAVj3QNaR0mWqKDYKXLzO8bQca9iNmmytJK6 nLFAJNGwzmMAu1MiCMBWcPieqAWjyVSfz%2FO8BSZT0pEtEWtNSh3tWKB5xqkNY9Qhs7WbGe8 EuAt32ewwx67hNfV8rngHDCpQyvXAfj4idhRVXTtwo%2Fk9O8bcfPkxhX9dxRv0Vw7MsNH8rz QMn%2BrO8KfDqcJ9x9Rk%2BjtBxhHAW9Iz%2FwP2NKVkIn19K13qj2sXDDTi1bwFWgJuXMC%2 FbPvLnbvdGuAyDSJDbqEx%2B%2Bep62vvTMXkiQGQG9cvRfElNO6gx9fckkqRaEwzph0AZGmi ZFLYJP0%2FEZePnJSu60RsvnZ13ERorw3jsJKl7O5LrDyUh14IAnRrqCP8H9fjK2gnLVelmIN ptBgHXt8VGvVsL1dlAHk84ZWTh%2F5NhdwTp4V0rUEiZxTHf%2Fuilag6UmnxRVvltlT7aJUU ll62W3FWPixrBrjRuQTGLjnr6hxwB7t%2FDevyRwW7GNPllYZmM1lMkAhd%2FuMYc6sg7tcRc ceqbs3QXHzwu5pRW04%3D&checksum 287254946321373ab7df7b4123bbe0bef05d20 1fa3 Sorry; I couldn't resist. :-) Note that the link is actually to a 10A supply, but that's probably 3 times what the radio needs, so still plenty of 'headroom'. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Charge Pump
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 06, 2020
On 2/6/2020 3:32 PM, Charlie England wrote: > On 2/6/2020 2:51 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote: >> Hello members, >> >> I'm wondering how difficult it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt >> charge-pump power supply.=C2- It would need to supply about 7 amps. >> >> Here's why I'm asking... There are lots of 28v KX-155s on Ebay that >> are fairly in-expensive at around $1500 compared to 12v models that >> can sell for up to $1000 more. >> >> So if I could fabricate such a power supply for around $100, I would >> be ahead of the game. >> >> I'm interested in the calculations on how to size the capacitors and >> the frequency to run the charge pump. >> >> Any insight is greatly appreciated, >> >> >> -Jeff > Yes, it can be done Here's how to calculate the values: > Start with $100. Divide by 5.88 Go to ebay. Search '12v to 24v stepup > converter'. With the result from the previous calculation, get one > converter, plus a spare. > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Waterproof-DC12V-to-DC-24V-20A-480W-Step-Up-Po wer-Supply-Converter-Regulator-Kit/202872549463?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash =item2f3c257057:m:mA-xAWABizqWlOLEyA6v7Nw&enc=AQAEAAACUBPxNw%2BVj6nta 7CKEs3N0qUXW1%2Fq6HuXoJTIAajkTxvX%2FthCD%2BMtQ9lOxF6IWwWFRnOCDAOfp2kcY%2F ayMmdc6Z2eRgn%2BFiiPY0P5BtYG1KcorbK%2FmeMRiVwLI8vEwVf0wSo9f79LRzTetEN9dtR tx6VmJgBqd%2BQqmMO6IsoUKer6LyYxh40VjEXp1PjMj35gPvxWVWLaQ8G6O0y%2B%2B1GB%2 F7hRHfA7qBtnk6bZTiFNEfuQspUJsdRqSP9OFtTDDAVj3QNaR0mWqKDYKXLzO8bQca9iNmmyt JK6nLFAJNGwzmMAu1MiCMBWcPieqAWjyVSfz%2FO8BSZT0pEtEWtNSh3tWKB5xqkNY9Qhs7Wb Ge8EuAt32ewwx67hNfV8rngHDCpQyvXAfj4idhRVXTtwo%2Fk9O8bcfPkxhX9dxRv0Vw7MsNH 8rzQMn%2BrO8KfDqcJ9x9Rk%2BjtBxhHAW9Iz%2FwP2NKVkIn19K13qj2sXDDTi1bwFWgJuXM C%2FbPvLnbvdGuAyDSJDbqEx%2B%2Bep62vvTMXkiQGQG9cvRfElNO6gx9fckkqRaEwzph0AZ GmiZFLYJP0%2FEZePnJSu60RsvnZ13ERorw3jsJKl7O5LrDyUh14IAnRrqCP8H9fjK2gnLVel mINptBgHXt8VGvVsL1dlAHk84ZWTh%2F5NhdwTp4V0rUEiZxTHf%2Fuilag6UmnxRVvltlT7a JUUll62W3FWPixrBrjRuQTGLjnr6hxwB7t%2FDevyRwW7GNPllYZmM1lMkAhd%2FuMYc6sg7t cRcceqbs3QXHzwu5pRW04%3D&checksum 287254946321373ab7df7b4123bbe0bef05 d201fa3 > > Sorry; I couldn't resist. :-) > Note that the link is actually to a 10A supply, but that's probably 3 > times what the radio needs, so still plenty of 'headroom'. > > Charlie OOPS.. Brain freeze....$17 gets you *one* upconverter, if you buy two. Anyway, less than $20 gets you where you need to be. You can buy more pedigreed versions for around $50-$75. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 06, 2020
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Charge Pump
Jeff, Aircraft Spruce has brand new comm radios from Dynon, Flightline, Garmin, I COM, MGL and Microair, all for significantly less than the $1,500 you quote d for a used 28V King.=C2- Using one of them, you'd have a brand new radi o, with a warranty, and no monkey motion required for voltage conversion. If that's not an option for some reason and you definitely need the King ra dio, then you're looking for a switch-mode boost converter, not a switched- capacitor charge pump.=C2- Here's something on eBay that may work: http://www.ebay.com/itm/332594877042 That seller has modules at various current levels.=C2- If I were you I'd buy the 15-amp model, as Chinese manufacturers tend to inflate their produc t specs. There are probably other options as well, if you want to look around.=C2- I found that by searching for "boost converter 12V 24V 10A". Eric=C2- cbell.net> wrote: Hello members, I'm wondering how difficult it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt charge-pum p power supply.=C2- It would need to supply about 7 amps.=C2-=C2- Here's why I'm asking... There are lots of 28v KX-155s on Ebay that are fai rly in-expensive at around $1500 compared to 12v models that can sell for u p to $1000 more. So if I could fabricate such a power supply for around $100, I would be ahe ad of the game. I'm interested in the calculations on how to size the capacitors and the fr equency to run the charge pump.=C2-=C2- Any insight is greatly appreciated,=C2- -Jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 06, 2020
From: Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Charge Pump
... now why didn't I think of that? ;) I searched Amazon for 12v-24v converter and didn't find anything useful.=C2 - Thanks for the correct search phrase.=C2- I wonder how much ripple is in the output. For those low prices, it doesn't make sense to even try to make one.=C2- =C2-But as a die-hard electro-geek I'm still interested in a charge-pump circuit & cap sizes. Per the King spec sheet, the KX-155 needs 6A at 24v. Thanks Charlie, -Jeff and7(at)gmail.com> wrote: On 2/6/2020 3:32 PM, Charlie England wrote: On 2/6/2020 2:51 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote: Hello members, I'm wondering how difficult it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt charge-p ump power supply.=C2- It would need to supply about 7 amps.=C2-=C2- Here's why I'm asking... There are lots of 28v KX-155s on Ebay that are f airly in-expensive at around $1500 compared to 12v models that can sell for up to $1000 more. So if I could fabricate such a power supply for around $100, I would be a head of the game. I'm interested in the calculations on how to size the capacitors and the frequency to run the charge pump.=C2-=C2- Any insight is greatly appreciated,=C2- -Jeff Yes, it can be done Here's how to calculate the values: Start with $100. Divide by 5.88 Go to ebay. Search '12v to 24v stepup conv erter'. With the result from the previous calculation, get one converter, p lus a spare. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Waterproof-DC12V-to-DC-24V-20A-480W-Step-Up-Power -Supply-Converter-Regulator-Kit/202872549463?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=it em2f3c257057:m:mA-xAWABizqWlOLEyA6v7Nw&enc=AQAEAAACUBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N 0qUXW1%2Fq6HuXoJTIAajkTxvX%2FthCD%2BMtQ9lOxF6IWwWFRnOCDAOfp2kcY%2FayMmdc6Z2 eRgn%2BFiiPY0P5BtYG1KcorbK%2FmeMRiVwLI8vEwVf0wSo9f79LRzTetEN9dtRtx6VmJgBqd% 2BQqmMO6IsoUKer6LyYxh40VjEXp1PjMj35gPvxWVWLaQ8G6O0y%2B%2B1GB%2F7hRHfA7qBtnk 6bZTiFNEfuQspUJsdRqSP9OFtTDDAVj3QNaR0mWqKDYKXLzO8bQca9iNmmytJK6nLFAJNGwzmMA u1MiCMBWcPieqAWjyVSfz%2FO8BSZT0pEtEWtNSh3tWKB5xqkNY9Qhs7WbGe8EuAt32ewwx67hN fV8rngHDCpQyvXAfj4idhRVXTtwo%2Fk9O8bcfPkxhX9dxRv0Vw7MsNH8rzQMn%2BrO8KfDqcJ9 x9Rk%2BjtBxhHAW9Iz%2FwP2NKVkIn19K13qj2sXDDTi1bwFWgJuXMC%2FbPvLnbvdGuAyDSJDb qEx%2B%2Bep62vvTMXkiQGQG9cvRfElNO6gx9fckkqRaEwzph0AZGmiZFLYJP0%2FEZePnJSu60 RsvnZ13ERorw3jsJKl7O5LrDyUh14IAnRrqCP8H9fjK2gnLVelmINptBgHXt8VGvVsL1dlAHk84 ZWTh%2F5NhdwTp4V0rUEiZxTHf%2Fuilag6UmnxRVvltlT7aJUUll62W3FWPixrBrjRuQTGLjnr 6hxwB7t%2FDevyRwW7GNPllYZmM1lMkAhd%2FuMYc6sg7tcRcceqbs3QXHzwu5pRW04%3D&chec ksum 287254946321373ab7df7b4123bbe0bef05d201fa3 Sorry; I couldn't resist. :-) Note that the link is actually to a 10A supply, but that's probably 3 time s what the radio needs, so still plenty of 'headroom'. Charlie OOPS.. Brain freeze....$17 gets you *one* upconverter, if you buy two. Any way, less than $20 gets you where you need to be. You can buy more pedigree d versions for around $50-$75. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Charge Pump
From: "Eric Page" <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Feb 06, 2020
> But as a die-hard electro-geek I'm still interested in a charge-pump circuit & cap sizes. You'll be hard-pressed to find any switched-capacitor charge pump that will work at those current levels. The highest current charge pump IC that Digi-Key has in stock maxes out at 4.5A, and everything else is rated for 500mA or less. If you're interested, the 4.5A part is here: https://www.digikey.com/short/z3mwj1 Eric P.S. Upon reflection, the 10A module that Charlie and I linked to on eBay would probably be sufficient, and lighter than the 15A module. The radio will only draw the full 6A while transmitting, and that's only for brief periods. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494686#494686 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Molex Connector For SL-15
Date: Feb 06, 2020
Greetings, Can someone please help me do the following: -Identify the proper Molex crimp on connector to go into the tray of my SL-15? -Give advice on how to easily remove the Molex connectors from the SL-15 trayThe tray is kinda deep and it would be difficult to reach into the tray cavity with the removal tool and it kinda looks like the connector body can be removed from the tray BACK STORY: Some of you might remember that I was trying to find out why the entertainment input of my SL-15 was not working. Well it seems that the avionics shop that I used to build the wire harness for my avionics system did not wire it upand now I have to remove the avionics tray and install the wiresGrrrrr. It is not exactly their faultthe SL-15 has a pretty stupid system where it has two =9Centertainment=9D inputswith ENT 1 being only available for the pilot stations and ENT 2 being only available only for the passenger stationsIf everybody wants to listen to the same music the SL-15 installation manual has a blurb that states: =9CEntertainment inputs #1 and #2 can be paralleled so a single entertainment source can serve both the passengers and the crew. It is suggested however, that a switch (DPDT) is installed between the single entertainment device and entertainment input #1. This will allow the pilot and copilot to decide if they hear entertainment while in the Crew mode=9D The avionics shop wired the input jack to ENT 2 and wired the Dynon annunciations to ENT 1 and with this setup when I plugged in the music to the input jack the music would only play to the passengers and the two pilots would only be able to listen to the Dynon annunciationshow entertaining So now I have to remove some Molex connectors and insert some wires and connectors so I can listen to my music THANKS!!! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com>
Subject: Re: Molex Connector For SL-15
Date: Feb 06, 2020
Per the SL-15 installation manual: "If the installation replaces a KMA-24 (series -01, -02 or -03), the existing 44-pinconnector can be used for the bottom connector of the SL15 tray as is, providing it isproperly installed and wired. So, usual King-type Molex edge connector. Obsoleted and EOM a long time ago, but pins still available at high cost on eBay and other sources. On Feb 6, 2020, at 6:54 PM, wrote: Greetings, Can someone please help me do the following: -Identify the proper Molex crimp on connector to go into the tray of my SL-15? -Give advice on how to easily remove the Molex connectors from the SL-15 trayThe tray is kinda deep and it would be difficult to reach into the tray cavity with the removal tool and it kinda looks like the connector body can be removed from the tray BACK STORY: Some of you might remember that I was trying to find out why the entertainment input of my SL-15 was not working. Well it seems that the avionics shop that I used to build the wire harness for my avionics system did not wire it upand now I have to remove the avionics tray and install the wiresGrrrrr. It is not exactly their faultthe SL-15 has a pretty stupid system where it has two entertainment inputswith ENT 1 being only available for the pilot stations and ENT 2 being only available only for the passenger stationsIf everybody wants to listen to the same music the SL-15 installation manual has a blurb that states: Entertainment inputs #1 and #2 can be paralleled so a single entertainment source can serve both the passengers and the crew. It is suggested however, that a switch (DPDT) is installed between the single entertainment device and entertainment input #1. This will allow the pilot and copilot to decide if they hear entertainment while in the Crew mode The avionics shop wired the input jack to ENT 2 and wired the Dynon annunciations to ENT 1 and with this setup when I plugged in the music to the input jack the music would only play to the passengers and the two pilots would only be able to listen to the Dynon annunciationshow entertaining So now I have to remove some Molex connectors and insert some wires and connectors so I can listen to my music THANKS!!! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com>
Subject: Re: Molex Connector For SL-15
Date: Feb 06, 2020
Im sorry - and to answer the second part of your question, the black plastic connector shell fits to the chassis tray with a screw at each end. Depending on geometry, you would probably want to disassemble the stack (remove all radios and equipment, and loosen all the trays so you can pull them forward), in order to get to the wiring. If you release the connector at the back of the tray, its unlikely youll have enough slack cable to bring the connector forward, and trying to insert and remove pins reaching around the back of the stack will prove difficult. On Feb 6, 2020, at 7:59 PM, Alec Myers wrote: Per the SL-15 installation manual: "If the installation replaces a KMA-24 (series -01, -02 or -03), the existing 44-pinconnector can be used for the bottom connector of the SL15 tray as is, providing it isproperly installed and wired. So, usual King-type Molex edge connector. Obsoleted and EOM a long time ago, but pins still available at high cost on eBay and other sources. On Feb 6, 2020, at 6:54 PM, wrote: Greetings, Can someone please help me do the following: -Identify the proper Molex crimp on connector to go into the tray of my SL-15? -Give advice on how to easily remove the Molex connectors from the SL-15 trayThe tray is kinda deep and it would be difficult to reach into the tray cavity with the removal tool and it kinda looks like the connector body can be removed from the tray BACK STORY: Some of you might remember that I was trying to find out why the entertainment input of my SL-15 was not working. Well it seems that the avionics shop that I used to build the wire harness for my avionics system did not wire it upand now I have to remove the avionics tray and install the wiresGrrrrr. It is not exactly their faultthe SL-15 has a pretty stupid system where it has two entertainment inputswith ENT 1 being only available for the pilot stations and ENT 2 being only available only for the passenger stationsIf everybody wants to listen to the same music the SL-15 installation manual has a blurb that states: Entertainment inputs #1 and #2 can be paralleled so a single entertainment source can serve both the passengers and the crew. It is suggested however, that a switch (DPDT) is installed between the single entertainment device and entertainment input #1. This will allow the pilot and copilot to decide if they hear entertainment while in the Crew mode The avionics shop wired the input jack to ENT 2 and wired the Dynon annunciations to ENT 1 and with this setup when I plugged in the music to the input jack the music would only play to the passengers and the two pilots would only be able to listen to the Dynon annunciationshow entertaining So now I have to remove some Molex connectors and insert some wires and connectors so I can listen to my music THANKS!!! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: A R Goldman <argoldman(at)aol.com>
Date: Feb 06, 2020
Subject: Re: Charge Pump
And the electrical noise????? Rich Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 6, 2020, at 3:35 PM, Charlie England wrote: > > how ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "rasmussenRE" <rasmussenre(at)gmail.com>
Subject: KY97A connector
Date: Feb 07, 2020
Greetings All, Anyone know where I can get a 30 pin "edge connector" for a KY97A? Thanks, Robert ~ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1112 1314 15 FRONT VIEW - CONNECTOR (AS SEEN IF VIEWING FROM THE FRONT OF THE RACK) H -------------- - 500 0 AUDIO HI 7 ----------- 500 0 AUDIO LO J - ---------- MIC AUDIO HI K - ---------- MIC INTERCOM 9 - ------- MICKEY 8 ------------- MIC AUDIO LO 1 0 - ------------- SQUELCH AND COMPRESSOR DISABLE l - -------------- AGC TEST /REMOTE CHANNEL INC 1 1 - ------------ + 1 3. 7 5 VDC POWER M - ------------- + 1 3. 75 VDC POWER R- ------------- AIRCRAFT POWER +13.75 VDC 14- ------- AIRCRAFT POWER +13.75 VDC P --------- - SWITCHED AIRCRAFT POWER 1 3 ------------ - SWITCHED AIRCRAFT POWER N - ------------- XMIT REC INTERLOCK 12 - ----------------------- REMOTE TRANSFER F ---------------------- AIRCRAFT GROUND 6 ----------------------- AIRCRAFT GROUND S ------------------ AIRCRAFT GROUND 15 ---------------------- AIRCRAFT GROUND B - ----------------- + 14VDC LIGHTING HI 1 ----------------- LIGHTING LO 2 ------------ - DETECTED AUDIO OUT A ---------------DIM SELECT E -------------- - 40 AUDIO OUT 5 -------------- 40 AUDIO LO D - ------------ AUX AUDIO IN 1 C - ------------- AUX AUDIO IN 2 3 - ----------- AUX AUDIO IN 3 4 ---------------- AUX AUDIO IN LO ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rich Ulmen <rich.ulmen(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: KY97A connector
Date: Feb 07, 2020
I have one. EmAil me Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 7, 2020, at 2:47 PM, rasmussenRE wrote: > > =EF=BB > Greetings All, > Anyone know where I can get a 30 pin =9Cedge connector=9D for a KY97A? > Thanks, > Robert > ~ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1112 1314 15 > FRONT VIEW - CONNECTOR > (AS SEEN IF VIEWING FROM THE FRONT OF THE RACK) > H -------------- - 500 0 AUDIO HI > 7 ----------- 500 0 AUDIO LO > J - ---------- MIC AUDIO HI > K - ---------- MIC INTERCOM > 9 - ------- MICKEY > 8 ------------- MIC AUDIO LO > 1 0 - ------------- SQUELCH AND COMPRESSOR DISABLE > l - -------------- AGC TEST /REMOTE CHANNEL INC > 1 1 - ------------ + 1 3. 7 5 VDC POWER > M - ------------- + 1 3. 75 VDC POWER > R- ------------- AIRCRAFT POWER +13.75 VDC > 14- ------- AIRCRAFT POWER +13.75 VDC > P --------- - SWITCHED AIRCRAFT POWER > 1 3 ------------ - SWITCHED AIRCRAFT POWER > N - ------------- XMIT REC INTERLOCK > 12 - ----------------------- REMOTE TRANSFER > F ---------------------- AIRCRAFT GROUND > 6 ----------------------- AIRCRAFT GROUND > S ------------------ AIRCRAFT GROUND > 15 ---------------------- AIRCRAFT GROUND > B - ----------------- + 14VDC LIGHTING HI > 1 ----------------- LIGHTING LO > 2 ------------ - DETECTED AUDIO OUT > A ---------------DIM SELECT > E -------------- - 40 AUDIO OUT > 5 -------------- 40 AUDIO LO > D - ------------ AUX AUDIO IN 1 > C - ------------- AUX AUDIO IN 2 > 3 - ----------- AUX AUDIO IN 3 > 4 ---------------- AUX AUDIO IN LO ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 07, 2020
Subject: Re: KY97A connector
I don't know the radio, but if it's an old pc board edge connector, this might be worth some research: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/icoma210connector.php?gclid =CjwKCAiA35rxBRAWEiwADqB377qMQ_OVPp-pqBnsl54hJisWD2Zq76_qewNSDDA7eiT6cYCZ IGTFjhoCQDUQAvD_BwE You'd need to verify center-center spacing of the tabs, and overall edge width. This link might be worth a read as kind of a 'back door' reference: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?p=1354743 Charlie On Fri, Feb 7, 2020 at 1:47 PM rasmussenRE wrote: > Greetings All, > > Anyone know where I can get a 30 pin =9Cedge connector=9D for a KY97A? > > Thanks, > > Robert > > ~ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1112 1314 15 > > FRONT VIEW - CONNECTOR > > (AS SEEN IF VIEWING FROM THE FRONT OF THE RACK) > > H -------------- - 500 0 AUDIO HI > > 7 ----------- 500 0 AUDIO LO > > J - ---------- MIC AUDIO HI > > K - ---------- MIC INTERCOM > > 9 - ------- MICKEY > > 8 ------------- MIC AUDIO LO > > 1 0 - ------------- SQUELCH AND COMPRESSOR DISABLE > > l - -------------- AGC TEST /REMOTE CHANNEL INC > > 1 1 - ------------ + 1 3. 7 5 VDC POWER > > M - ------------- + 1 3. 75 VDC POWER > > R- ------------- AIRCRAFT POWER +13.75 VDC > > 14- ------- AIRCRAFT POWER +13.75 VDC > > P --------- - SWITCHED AIRCRAFT POWER > > 1 3 ------------ - SWITCHED AIRCRAFT POWER > > N - ------------- XMIT REC INTERLOCK > > 12 - ----------------------- REMOTE TRANSFER > > F ---------------------- AIRCRAFT GROUND > > 6 ----------------------- AIRCRAFT GROUND > > S ------------------ AIRCRAFT GROUND > > 15 ---------------------- AIRCRAFT GROUND > > B - ----------------- + 14VDC LIGHTING HI > > 1 ----------------- LIGHTING LO > > 2 ------------ - DETECTED AUDIO OUT > > A ---------------DIM SELECT > > E -------------- - 40 AUDIO OUT > > 5 -------------- 40 AUDIO LO > > D - ------------ AUX AUDIO IN 1 > > C - ------------- AUX AUDIO IN 2 > > 3 - ----------- AUX AUDIO IN 3 > > 4 ---------------- AUX AUDIO IN LO > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Foghorn Inc <foghorn757(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS
Date: Feb 09, 2020
Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for powering the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with an emergency aux feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt. Thoughts? Please go easy on me. =F0=9F=98=AC Jeff Parker ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 09, 2020
The alternator "B" lead fuses should be physically located at the battery end of the B lead, not at the alternator end. ANL fuses will carry their rated current indefinitely. Replace the 80 amp fuse with 40 amp. Replace the Aux 40 ANL with a Littelfuse Maxi 30 amp. For the cost of sales tax on the VP-X, a fuse block and fuses could be purchased. And fuses can be replaced by anywhere by the pilot. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494717#494717 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS
From: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 09, 2020
Jeff Fundamentally I ask myself what your goal might be? What are you trying to protect against? With an immediate low voltage warning you are not going to continue flying blissfully unaware after an alternator has failed until the battery dies like so many have done in the past. There would be no hurry whatsoever to close the crossfeed, or manually switch power sources after one z14 alternator quit, or do nothing and just land on the battery. Why put relays in the feed path to the engine instead of a switch. Or two switches ganged together to feed from either of two sources. If you do use relays what is the power source to activate them. In my case with independent ignitions I use a switch to each coil and either coil will run the engine. No diodes because the coils are separate from each other. My ecu's and coil drivers on the ground side of the coils operate regardless of whether their respective coils have +12 volts on them. Ken On 09/02/2020 7:44 AM, Foghorn Inc wrote: > Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for > powering the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with an > emergency aux feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt. > > Thoughts? > > Please go easy on me. > > Jeff Parker > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 09, 2020
Subject: Re: Molex Connector For SL-15
Does anyone know what Molex female connector is used in the SL15 tray? Thanks, Bill Hunter On Thu, Feb 6, 2020, 16:54 wrote: > Greetings, > > > Can someone please help me do the following: > > > -Identify the proper Molex crimp on connector to go into the tray of my > SL-15? > > > -Give advice on how to easily remove the Molex connectors from the SL-15 > trayThe tray is kinda deep and it would be difficult to reach in to the > tray cavity with the removal tool and it kinda looks like the connector > body can be removed from the tray > > > BACK STORY: > > > Some of you might remember that I was trying to find out why the > entertainment input of my SL-15 was not working. > > > Well it seems that the avionics shop that I used to build the wire harnes s > for my avionics system did not wire it upand now I have to remov e the > avionics tray and install the wiresGrrrrr. > > > It is not exactly their faultthe SL-15 has a pretty stupid syste m where > it has two =9Centertainment=9D inputswith ENT 1 bein g only available for the > pilot stations and ENT 2 being only available only for the passenger > stationsIf everybody wants to listen to the same music the SL-15 > installation manual has a blurb that states: > > > =9CEntertainment inputs #1 and #2 can be paralleled so a single > entertainment source can > > serve both the passengers and the crew. It is suggested however, that a > switch (DPDT) is > > installed between the single entertainment device and entertainment input > #1. This will > > allow the pilot and copilot to decide if they hear entertainment while in > the Crew mode=9D > > > The avionics shop wired the input jack to ENT 2 and wired the Dynon > annunciations to ENT 1 and with this setup when I plugged in the music to > the input jack the music would only play to the passengers and the two > pilots would only be able to listen to the Dynon annunciationsho w > entertaining > > > So now I have to remove some Molex connectors and insert some wires and > connectors so I can listen to my music > > > THANKS!!! > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Foghorn Inc <foghorn757(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS
Date: Feb 09, 2020
Hey Joe, Thanks for the comments. The main Alt is 60a and the Aux Alt is 30+. I was under the impression that the ANL current limiter should be slightly larger than the ALT load. Hence the 80a and 40a ANL. I purchase most stuff from B&C and they dont sell a 70a ANL fuse to the best of my knowledge but Ill see what I can find. The VP-X is purchased and here to stay. Thanks, Jeff Parker > On 9Feb, 2020, at 09:28, user9253 wrote: > > > The alternator "B" lead fuses should be physically located at the battery end of the B lead, not at the alternator end. > ANL fuses will carry their rated current indefinitely. Replace the 80 amp fuse with 40 amp. > Replace the Aux 40 ANL with a Littelfuse Maxi 30 amp. > For the cost of sales tax on the VP-X, a fuse block and fuses could be purchased. > And fuses can be replaced by anywhere by the pilot. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494717#494717 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Foghorn Inc <foghorn757(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS
Date: Feb 09, 2020
> On 9Feb, 2020, at 10:08, C&K wrote: > > > > Jeff > Fundamentally I ask myself what your goal might be? Continued IFR flight, inhospitable terrain over flight or I might fly it to Europe =F0=9F=98=8F. What are you trying to protect against? Self induced engine failure. > > With an immediate low voltage warning you are not going to continue flying blissfully unaware after an alternator has failed until the battery dies like so many have done in the past. > There would be no hurry whatsoever to close the crossfeed, or manually switch power sources after one z14 alternator quit, or do nothing and just land on the battery. I agree and believe this diagram addresses continued flight with minimal pilot input. > > Why put relays in the feed path to the engine instead of a switch. Or two switches ganged together to feed from either of two sources. If you do use relays what is the power source to activate them. I=99m not tied to the relays. My thought process was to run a smaller gauge wire to the switch in the cockpit to activate the relays for the coils. I =99m really looking for what is simple and works. > > In my case with independent ignitions I use a switch to each coil and either coil will run the engine. No diodes because the coils are separate from each other. My ecu's and coil drivers on the ground side of the coils operate regardless of whether their respective coils have +12 volts on them. > Ken > > On 09/02/2020 7:44 AM, Foghorn Inc wrote: >> Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for powering the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with an emergency aux feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> Please go easy on me. =F0=9F=98=AC >> >> Jeff Parker >> >> >> > <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 09, 2020
The main alternator has two labels. 40 & 60. I only noticed the 40 amp label earlier. I think that "one size larger" rule of thumb applies to circuit breakers, not ANL fuses. Maybe Bob will chime in. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494722#494722 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Feb 09, 2020
Re ANL current limiters. Ref: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/anl/anlvsjjs.html "There are some noteworthy characteristics of the ANL series devices. Note that they will carry nearly 2X their rated current indefinitely. This makes them behave more like the fusible links we've described elsewhere on this website. So, if you wish to size an ANL current limiter more in line with the output rating of your alternator, you could do so without regard to the "headroom"..." -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F Dual Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494723#494723 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Feb 09, 2020
Hi Jeff... My 2 cents. All... bear in mind: Jeff and I are dual SDS EM-5-F four cylinder. Jeff is RV-8 with one battery forward of firewall and one battery aft of baggage bulkhead and I am RV-6A with two batteries forward of firewall. Six cylinder is different in some ways; the injector relays and ignition coils draw more current; I believe the fuel pumps are the same Walbro GSL393 units. Placing the engine bus forward of the firewall agrees with FAR 23.1361. For the engine bus feed 12 awg is conservative. I did current draw calculations, summarized at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14Jho6rEreX6upko3hPlpTRoGAmE3MCj18zQzqbGkyMM/edit#gid=1724151884 I too made the engine bus always hot to eliminate a couple relays and switches but in your case of one battery rear of the baggage bulkhead I would use a relay at the battery. I verify the diodes are not open or shorted by using the Dynon D6 voltmeter on the engine bus. My engine operation checklist is at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17gL5VBNBINsUWGvcAn5oU3dBuvL6c_QKnQUzpi2PggY/edit#gid=1116877898 FAR 23.1361 would have the fuel pumps on relays forward of the firewall. The ignition coil relays need a jumper from relay coil to power from engine bus. I don't know how to prove the injector relays are not stuck in the nominal/off/ECU 1 position if the ECUs are not switched. I used progressive ECU/Ignition Coil switches so the ECU can boot before powering the coil. Also on the engine operation checklist linked above. Both injector relays can be on the same fuse, they draw 0.055 A each for a total of 0.110 A. The install manual incorrectly says 0.42 A each; currently at V30 rev 3 01/08/2020. Wire from Blue Sea pass thru to starter contactor can be 4 awg. Wire to aux alternator can be 8 awg or even 10 awg. The ANL for main alternator would be close to the Blue Sea pass thru. Consider using a relay for aux bus feed so there will not be a hot switch on the IP in any case and so all power to the cabin can be cut in a post crash scenario. I'm not sure what's the best name for the Aux Eng Bus Feed switch given it comes from the Main Batt. -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360, dual SDSEFI EM-5-F Dual Batt Dual Alt RV-6A SDS dual EM-5-F john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494725#494725 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)GMAIL.COM>
Date: Feb 09, 2020
Subject: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS
On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 10:16 AM user9253 wrote: > > The main alternator has two labels. 40 & 60. I only noticed the 40 amp > label earlier. I think that "one size larger" rule of thumb applies to > circuit breakers, not ANL fuses. Maybe Bob will chime in. > > -------- > Joe Gores > Specs are published by mfgrs. Bussman *non-time-delay* specs: http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bussmann/Electrical/Resources/product-datasheets-a/Bus_Ele_DS_2024_ANL.pdf According to this doc, a 50A ANL will handle 100A for virtually unlimited duration. But for a catastrophic fault, there's a very small difference (as a percentage of current or time to melt) between a 50A & an 80A. Ex: @120A, the 50A melts in 0.5 seconds while the 80A melts at 0.7 seconds. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 09, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS
At 06:44 AM 2/9/2020, you wrote: >Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for >powering the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with >an emergency aux feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt. It doesn't really matter much since all busses are very robust. Put all engine loads on one bus . . . either main or aux . . . you'll be fine. No more busses needed Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 09, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS
At 09:31 AM 2/9/2020, you wrote: > >Hey Joe, > >Thanks for the comments. The main Alt is 60a and >the Aux Alt is 30+. I was under the impression >that the ANL current limiter should be slightly >larger than the ALT load. Hence the 80a and 40a >ANL. I purchase most stuff from B&C and they >don=99t sell a 70a ANL fuse to the best of my >knowledge but I=99ll see what I can find. > >The VP-X is purchased and here to stay. Unlike CIRCUIT BREAKERS . . . ANL (vintage) or MIDI/MANL (recommended) devices are CURRENT LIMITERS. Check out the specs https://tinyurl.com/by5qnop a CURRENT LIMITER is intended to clear hard faults (read: more amps than you'd like to have flowing anywhere on the airplane!). A current limiter will typically carry it's rated current for a very long time. Emacs! 150% of rating is still longer than you want a branch circuit protection to trip. But hit say a MIDI50 with 500A (1000%) fault and it's going to open in about 100 milliseconds. Short story, when purchasing current limiters, the size equal to your expected continuous current is fine . . . CIRCUIT BREAKERS are another story . . . and not recommended for alternator b-lead protection anyhow. Beech quit putting them into the b-leads about 3 or 4 decades ago . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Foghorn Inc <foghorn757(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS
Date: Feb 09, 2020
Thanks Bob! I=99ll go with it and get some MIDI/MANL current limiters at the ALTs rated power. Jeff Parker > On 9Feb, 2020, at 14:39, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 06:44 AM 2/9/2020, you wrote: >> Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for powering the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with an emergency aux feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt. > > It doesn't really matter much since all busses > are very robust. Put all engine loads on one > bus . . . either main or aux . . . you'll be > fine. No more busses needed > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Charge Pump
Date: Feb 10, 2020
On 2020-02-06, at 20:51, Jeff Luckey wrote: > I'm wondering how difficult it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt charge-pump power supply. It would need to supply about 7 amps. Jeff - I went through this process some time back for a 24V gyro, which had a much lower current demand - see my journal page: http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/24vconverter.php Here attached as a PDF is the process I used to choose component values - it may be of some use to you. And my spare components are still available, should you want any of them, although postage to USA might be pricey. in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Charge Pump
From: "racerjerry" <gnking2(at)verizon.net>
Date: Feb 10, 2020
1 KX-155 is an OLD radio 2 KX-155 digital displays (very common failure) are no longer available as a replacement part 3 Cheaper options are available 4 VOR stations are rapidly disappearing because of GPS navigation - forget VOR 5 A good hand-held radio connected to an external antenna will work just as good as panel mount LOW BUDGET JERRY -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494735#494735 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Changes in education field and technology
From: "Cameron Field" <zaroon.zein(at)owee.org>
Date: Feb 11, 2020
Technology has impacted almost every aspect of life today, and education is no exception. Of course, technology has greatly expanded access to education. In medieval times, books were rare and only an elite few had access to educational opportunities. Individuals had to travel to centers of learning to get an education. Today, massive amounts of information (books, audio, images, videos) are available at ones fingertips through the Internet, and opportunities for formal learning are available online worldwide through the Khan Academy, MOOCs, podcasts, traditional online degree programs, and more. Access to learning opportunities today is unprecedented in scope thanks to technology. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494760#494760 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Changes in education field and technology
From: "Cameron Field" <zaroon.zein(at)owee.org>
Date: Feb 11, 2020
KennethAmpbell wrote: > Education is not the same as in the olden days now. According to the technology change the educational system is also in the path of change. Students now are growing up in the technology era so that they think and act more intelligently than the older generation. Smart classrooms and better education strategies are really doing wonders in the next generation kids. Students now are also getting help from online resources such as write my essay other than that of the olden time which makes easy for them to manage their curriculum activities. Students can also get educational tips and tricks such as how to succeed. Getting help from experts actually is a better option to achieve success. In addition to your words, I want to say technology is a powerful tool that can support and transform education in many ways, from making it easier for teachers to create instructional materials to enabling new ways for people to learn and work together. With the worldwide reach of the Internet and the ubiquity of smart devices that can connect to it, a new age of anytime anywhere education is dawning. It will be up to instructional designers and educational technologies to make the most of the opportunities provided by technology to change education so that effective and efficient education is available to everyone everywhere. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494761#494761 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: For fellow singles, what will you be doing Valentine's
Day
From: "Cameron Field" <zaroon.zein(at)owee.org>
Date: Feb 11, 2020
This is kind of a serious question, but I'm just curious as to how those cope with being single this time of year. Everyone is out and about celebrating with their significant other and sometimes I just feel lonely. Just the other night I went out with some friends I hadn't seen in a long time and they all brought their wives and I was the odd man out. Normally this wouldn't bother me but not having at least one person to spend time with sucks. Right now I just plan to stay and home and watch a movie on Netflix or something but the whole time I'm sure I'll be wishing my EX GF was laying there next to me :'( Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494762#494762 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 11, 2020
Subject: Re: For fellow singles, what will you be doing Valentine's
Day Right off I'd say your problem with your GF is your lack of knowing what's appropriate and when, Like posting your lovelorn issues on an aircraft electrical forum. Try Love Line, they might give a **** about it. Rick PS as my daughter's godmother used to tell me. Lay is an inanimate verb so that may be part of your problem, too. On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 6:50 AM Cameron Field wrote: > zaroon.zein(at)owee.org> > > This is kind of a serious question, but I'm just curious as to how those > cope with being single this time of year. Everyone is out and about > celebrating with their significant other and sometimes I just feel lonely . > Just the other night I went out with some friends I hadn't seen in a long > time and they all brought their wives and I was the odd man out. Normally > this wouldn't bother me but not having at least one person to spend time > with sucks. > > Right now I just plan to stay and home and watch a movie on Netflix or > something but the whole time I'm sure I'll be wishing my EX GF was laying > there next to me :'( > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494762#494762 > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <rasmussenre(at)gmail.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 02/07/20
Date: Feb 12, 2020
Thanks for the response y'all. Rich, Are you willing to part with your KY97A connector? Sent you a couple of emails but nothing heard. Cheers, Robert Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 11:41 AM - KY97A connector (rasmussenRE) 2. 12:00 PM - Re: KY97A connector (Rich Ulmen) 3. 12:13 PM - Re: KY97A connector (Charlie England) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ From: "rasmussenRE" <rasmussenre(at)gmail.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: KY97A connector Greetings All, Anyone know where I can get a 30 pin "edge connector" for a KY97A? Thanks, Robert ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ From: Rich Ulmen <rich.ulmen(at)gmail.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: KY97A connector I have one. EmAil me Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 7, 2020, at 2:47 PM, rasmussenRE wrote: > > =EF=BB > Greetings All, > Anyone know where I can get a 30 pin =9Cedge connector=9D for a KY97A? > Thanks, > Robert > ~ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1112 1314 15 > FRONT VIEW - CONNECTOR > (AS SEEN IF VIEWING FROM THE FRONT OF THE RACK) H -------------- - 500 > 0 AUDIO HI > 7 ----------- 500 0 AUDIO LO > J - ---------- MIC AUDIO HI > K - ---------- MIC INTERCOM > 9 - ------- MICKEY > 8 ------------- MIC AUDIO LO > 1 0 - ------------- SQUELCH AND COMPRESSOR DISABLE l - -------------- > AGC TEST /REMOTE CHANNEL INC > 1 1 - ------------ + 1 3. 7 5 VDC POWER M - ------------- + 1 3. 75 > VDC POWER > R- ------------- AIRCRAFT POWER +13.75 VDC > 14- ------- AIRCRAFT POWER +13.75 VDC > P --------- - SWITCHED AIRCRAFT POWER > 1 3 ------------ - SWITCHED AIRCRAFT POWER N - ------------- XMIT REC > INTERLOCK > 12 - ----------------------- REMOTE TRANSFER F ---------------------- > AIRCRAFT GROUND > 6 ----------------------- AIRCRAFT GROUND S ------------------ > AIRCRAFT GROUND > 15 ---------------------- AIRCRAFT GROUND B - ----------------- + > 14VDC LIGHTING HI > 1 ----------------- LIGHTING LO > 2 ------------ - DETECTED AUDIO OUT > A ---------------DIM SELECT > E -------------- - 40 AUDIO OUT > 5 -------------- 40 AUDIO LO > D - ------------ AUX AUDIO IN 1 > C - ------------- AUX AUDIO IN 2 > 3 - ----------- AUX AUDIO IN 3 > 4 ---------------- AUX AUDIO IN LO ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: KY97A connector I don't know the radio, but if it's an old pc board edge connector, this might be worth some research: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/icoma210connector.php?gclid =CjwKCAiA35rxBRAWEiwADqB377qMQ_OVPp-pqBnsl54hJisWD2Zq76_qewNSDDA7eiT6cYCZ IGTFjhoCQDUQAvD_BwE You'd need to verify center-center spacing of the tabs, and overall edge width. This link might be worth a read as kind of a 'back door' reference: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?p=1354743 Charlie On Fri, Feb 7, 2020 at 1:47 PM rasmussenRE wrote: > Greetings All, > > Anyone know where I can get a 30 pin =9Cedge connector=9D for a KY97A? > > Thanks, > > Robert > > ~ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1112 1314 15 > > FRONT VIEW - CONNECTOR > > (AS SEEN IF VIEWING FROM THE FRONT OF THE RACK) > > H -------------- - 500 0 AUDIO HI > > 7 ----------- 500 0 AUDIO LO > > J - ---------- MIC AUDIO HI > > K - ---------- MIC INTERCOM > > 9 - ------- MICKEY > > 8 ------------- MIC AUDIO LO > > 1 0 - ------------- SQUELCH AND COMPRESSOR DISABLE > > l - -------------- AGC TEST /REMOTE CHANNEL INC > > 1 1 - ------------ + 1 3. 7 5 VDC POWER > > M - ------------- + 1 3. 75 VDC POWER > > R- ------------- AIRCRAFT POWER +13.75 VDC > > 14- ------- AIRCRAFT POWER +13.75 VDC > > P --------- - SWITCHED AIRCRAFT POWER > > 1 3 ------------ - SWITCHED AIRCRAFT POWER > > N - ------------- XMIT REC INTERLOCK > > 12 - ----------------------- REMOTE TRANSFER > > F ---------------------- AIRCRAFT GROUND > > 6 ----------------------- AIRCRAFT GROUND > > S ------------------ AIRCRAFT GROUND > > 15 ---------------------- AIRCRAFT GROUND > > B - ----------------- + 14VDC LIGHTING HI > > 1 ----------------- LIGHTING LO > > 2 ------------ - DETECTED AUDIO OUT > > A ---------------DIM SELECT > > E -------------- - 40 AUDIO OUT > > 5 -------------- 40 AUDIO LO > > D - ------------ AUX AUDIO IN 1 > > C - ------------- AUX AUDIO IN 2 > > 3 - ----------- AUX AUDIO IN 3 > > 4 ---------------- AUX AUDIO IN LO > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <rasmussenre(at)gmail.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 02/07/20
Date: Feb 12, 2020
Thanks for the response y'all. Rich, Are you willing to part with your KY97A connector? Sent you a couple of emails but nothing heard. Cheers, Robert Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 11:41 AM - KY97A connector (rasmussenRE) 2. 12:00 PM - Re: KY97A connector (Rich Ulmen) 3. 12:13 PM - Re: KY97A connector (Charlie England) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ From: "rasmussenRE" <rasmussenre(at)gmail.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: KY97A connector Greetings All, Anyone know where I can get a 30 pin "edge connector" for a KY97A? Thanks, Robert ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ From: Rich Ulmen <rich.ulmen(at)gmail.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: KY97A connector I have one. EmAil me Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 7, 2020, at 2:47 PM, rasmussenRE wrote: > > =EF=BB > Greetings All, > Anyone know where I can get a 30 pin =9Cedge connector=9D for a KY97A? > Thanks, > Robert > ~ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1112 1314 15 > FRONT VIEW - CONNECTOR > (AS SEEN IF VIEWING FROM THE FRONT OF THE RACK) H -------------- - 500 > 0 AUDIO HI > 7 ----------- 500 0 AUDIO LO > J - ---------- MIC AUDIO HI > K - ---------- MIC INTERCOM > 9 - ------- MICKEY > 8 ------------- MIC AUDIO LO > 1 0 - ------------- SQUELCH AND COMPRESSOR DISABLE l - -------------- > AGC TEST /REMOTE CHANNEL INC > 1 1 - ------------ + 1 3. 7 5 VDC POWER M - ------------- + 1 3. 75 > VDC POWER > R- ------------- AIRCRAFT POWER +13.75 VDC > 14- ------- AIRCRAFT POWER +13.75 VDC > P --------- - SWITCHED AIRCRAFT POWER > 1 3 ------------ - SWITCHED AIRCRAFT POWER N - ------------- XMIT REC > INTERLOCK > 12 - ----------------------- REMOTE TRANSFER F ---------------------- > AIRCRAFT GROUND > 6 ----------------------- AIRCRAFT GROUND S ------------------ > AIRCRAFT GROUND > 15 ---------------------- AIRCRAFT GROUND B - ----------------- + > 14VDC LIGHTING HI > 1 ----------------- LIGHTING LO > 2 ------------ - DETECTED AUDIO OUT > A ---------------DIM SELECT > E -------------- - 40 AUDIO OUT > 5 -------------- 40 AUDIO LO > D - ------------ AUX AUDIO IN 1 > C - ------------- AUX AUDIO IN 2 > 3 - ----------- AUX AUDIO IN 3 > 4 ---------------- AUX AUDIO IN LO ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: KY97A connector I don't know the radio, but if it's an old pc board edge connector, this might be worth some research: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/icoma210connector.php?gclid =CjwKCAiA35rxBRAWEiwADqB377qMQ_OVPp-pqBnsl54hJisWD2Zq76_qewNSDDA7eiT6cYCZ IGTFjhoCQDUQAvD_BwE You'd need to verify center-center spacing of the tabs, and overall edge width. This link might be worth a read as kind of a 'back door' reference: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?p=1354743 Charlie On Fri, Feb 7, 2020 at 1:47 PM rasmussenRE wrote: > Greetings All, > > Anyone know where I can get a 30 pin =9Cedge connector=9D for a KY97A? > > Thanks, > > Robert > > ~ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1112 1314 15 > > FRONT VIEW - CONNECTOR > > (AS SEEN IF VIEWING FROM THE FRONT OF THE RACK) > > H -------------- - 500 0 AUDIO HI > > 7 ----------- 500 0 AUDIO LO > > J - ---------- MIC AUDIO HI > > K - ---------- MIC INTERCOM > > 9 - ------- MICKEY > > 8 ------------- MIC AUDIO LO > > 1 0 - ------------- SQUELCH AND COMPRESSOR DISABLE > > l - -------------- AGC TEST /REMOTE CHANNEL INC > > 1 1 - ------------ + 1 3. 7 5 VDC POWER > > M - ------------- + 1 3. 75 VDC POWER > > R- ------------- AIRCRAFT POWER +13.75 VDC > > 14- ------- AIRCRAFT POWER +13.75 VDC > > P --------- - SWITCHED AIRCRAFT POWER > > 1 3 ------------ - SWITCHED AIRCRAFT POWER > > N - ------------- XMIT REC INTERLOCK > > 12 - ----------------------- REMOTE TRANSFER > > F ---------------------- AIRCRAFT GROUND > > 6 ----------------------- AIRCRAFT GROUND > > S ------------------ AIRCRAFT GROUND > > 15 ---------------------- AIRCRAFT GROUND > > B - ----------------- + 14VDC LIGHTING HI > > 1 ----------------- LIGHTING LO > > 2 ------------ - DETECTED AUDIO OUT > > A ---------------DIM SELECT > > E -------------- - 40 AUDIO OUT > > 5 -------------- 40 AUDIO LO > > D - ------------ AUX AUDIO IN 1 > > C - ------------- AUX AUDIO IN 2 > > 3 - ----------- AUX AUDIO IN 3 > > 4 ---------------- AUX AUDIO IN LO > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Feb 12, 2020
Subject: Rotary Cellphone
It isn't "aero" but most of y'all are of an age to appreciate this project: http://justine-haupt.com/rotarycellphone/ Cheers, -- Art Z. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *Sooner meet a bereaved she-bear than a fool with his nonsense. *Proverbs 17:12 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Charge Pump
At 04:59 AM 2/10/2020, you wrote: >On 2020-02-06, at 20:51, Jeff Luckey wrote: > > > I'm wondering how difficult it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt > charge-pump power supply. It would need to supply about 7 amps. You threw me a curve ball with the 'charge pump' thingy . . . but after following the thread it's apparent that you're needing a 12 -> 24 volt up-converter. A 'charge pump' is a particular kind of energy converter limited to very low power systems. The critter you're looking for is more like this. https://tinyurl.com/rjxn3eo perhaps a little 'beefier' than you need but already robustly packaged and convenient to wire up. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Earl Schroeder <n233ee(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Charge Pump
Date: Feb 13, 2020
Is the input ground isolated from the output? > On Feb 13, 2020, at 7:57 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroele ctric.com> wrote: > > =EF=BB At 04:59 AM 2/10/2020, you wrote: >> On 2020-02-06, at 20:51, Jeff Luckey wrote: >> >> > I'm wondering how difficult it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt charge -pump power supply. It would need to supply about 7 amps. > > You threw me a curve ball with the 'charge pump' > thingy . . . but after following the thread > it's apparent that you're needing a 12 -> 24 > volt up-converter. A 'charge pump' is a particular > kind of energy converter limited to very low > power systems. > > The critter you're looking for is more like this. > > https://tinyurl.com/rjxn3eo > > perhaps a little 'beefier' than you need > but already robustly packaged and convenient > to wire up. > > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 13, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Charge Pump
At 08:22 AM 2/13/2020, you wrote: >Is the input ground isolated from the output? Probably not. It's difficult to find such devices with 'isolated' or 'floating' outputs. They exist and generally in low power (couple watts) versions. Examples: https://tinyurl.com/rplxlsk Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 13, 2020
From: Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Charge Pump
Bob, So what is the basic circuit design in the 12-24v step-up supply you refere nce on EBay?=C2- An inverter, transformer, rectifier? s, III wrote: At 04:59 AM 2/10/2020, you wrote: On 2020-02-06, at 20:51, JeffLuckey wrote: > I'm wondering how difficult it would be to build a 14-to-28 voltcharge-pu mp power supply.=C2- It would need to supply about 7amps. =C2- You threw me a curve ball with the 'charge pump' =C2- thingy . . . but after following the thread =C2- it's apparent that you're needing a 12 -> 24 =C2- volt up-converter.=C2- A 'charge pump' is a particular =C2- kind of energy converter limited to very low =C2- power systems. =C2- The critter you're looking for is more like this. https://tinyurl.com/rjxn3eo =C2- perhaps a little 'beefier' than you need =C2- but already robustly packaged and convenient =C2- to wire up. =C2- Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 13, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Charge Pump
At 10:51 AM 2/13/2020, you wrote: >Bob, > >So what is the basic circuit design in the 12-24v step-up supply you >reference on EBay? An inverter, transformer, rectifier? > >-Jeff The vast majority will use the configuration posted by Rowland. This is the lowest parts count, easiest to implement. The number and style of filter components on inputs and outputs will vary but the basic step-up architecture is constant. Isolated supplies require a transformer. They'll be more expensive. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Charge Pump
From: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 13, 2020
I run a 28volt T&B off a cheap ($4.?) ebay 12 to 24 volt adjustable converter. Think it was rated at about 3 amps which is way more than needed. It has common grounds. It's mounted in a little plastic box and taped to a wire bundle under the dash. I have not noticed any interference with the gps or radio. Weighs next to nothing. Ken On 13/02/2020 9:22 AM, Earl Schroeder wrote: > Is the input ground isolated from the output? > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DANIEL PELLETIER <pelletie1959(at)me.com>
Subject: Re: dimmer dim50-14
Date: Feb 13, 2020
Hi, Today I bought a 3 volts led to remplace the light in my Westach OAT. At the shop, they suggest me to put an resistance on my 12 volts circuit. I instal led the dimmer with potentiometer to control my instrument lights. Does I ne ed to install the resistance or not? I enclosed a picture of my dimmer. Daniel ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: dimmer dim50-14
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 13, 2020
Assuming that the dimmer is capable of outputting 14 volts at full brightness, then yes, I would install a 560 ohm resistor in series with the LED to prevent damaging it. If the LED does not get bright enough, you call always replace the reistor with a smaller value. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494799#494799 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Earl Schroeder <n233ee(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Charge Pump
Date: Feb 14, 2020
This might work for me: WRB1224YMD-6W. https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-pcs-5- 12-15-24-48V-6W-Isolated-Regulated-Dual-Single-Output-DC-DC-Converter/222767 551092?hash=item33ddfb1274:m:m7JLZJsEF2VDrfRwBcZHJsg I am supplying 24V to a dozen or so 4-20 mA instruments Four CH, EG, 2 fue l tank levels etc. This is for a back up in case the existing 12-24 unit fa ils. I have discovered that it is no longer available. Thanks for your help, Earl Schroeder P.S. I have four or so 12 V battery chargers that have failed over the years . Most are =98Shusmackers=99.. anyway that is what I call them. Let me know if you want to =98look=99 at them before they hit t he trash. (I live near Evansville, IN). 7ii3 on St Louis sec. > On Feb 13, 2020, at 10:18 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroel ectric.com> wrote: > > =EF=BB At 08:22 AM 2/13/2020, you wrote: >> Is the input ground isolated from the output? > > Probably not. It's difficult to find > such devices with 'isolated' or 'floating' > outputs. They exist and generally in > low power (couple watts) versions. > > Examples: https://tinyurl.com/rplxlsk > > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Always hot power for fuel injectors and ignition coils
From: "cofford" <cofford(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 14, 2020
Hi everyone, I'm currently planning the electrical architecture for my RV-8 with EFII and I've been following the recent discussions of fuel injector power with great interest. Does anyone connect the positive side of the injectors and coils to the always-hot battery bus and leave them powered all the time, or are they generally always switched? I'm leaning towards a dual-feed bus with diode-protected feeds from the main contactor and a relay on an aux battery. I'll post a schematic when I get done drawing it. Thanks, Casey Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494804#494804 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Always hot power for fuel injectors and ignition
coils
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 14, 2020
On 2/14/2020 12:49 PM, cofford wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I'm currently planning the electrical architecture for my RV-8 with EFII and I've been following the recent discussions of fuel injector power with great interest. Does anyone connect the positive side of the injectors and coils to the always-hot battery bus and leave them powered all the time, or are they generally always switched? > > I'm leaning towards a dual-feed bus with diode-protected feeds from the main contactor and a relay on an aux battery. I'll post a schematic when I get done drawing it. > > Thanks, > Casey > My opinion is that there's a difference between powering engine components directly from a (unfortunately named) 'battery bus' and leaving them always hot. My *engine bus* is fed from the battery, by a fusible link-protected feeder, *through a high current switch*. It also has a secondary (backup) switched feed from the main a/c bus. All the engine components are fed from this engine bus. This is *not* my always-hot battery bus. If you start feeding multiple components with always-hot feeds, it's likely to get very difficult to keep track of what's hot & what's not when working on the plane. It also makes it impossible to make everything 'cold' for an emergency landing. As has been discussed here recently, with proper installation, the only way (at least at the type of odds of a wing failure) an entire bus can go down is a failure of the switching mechanism, which is why there are two feeds to the bus. FWIW, Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 14, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Always hot power for fuel injectors and ignition
coils >I'm currently planning the electrical architecture for my RV-8 with >EFII and I've been following the recent discussions of fuel injector >power with great interest. Does anyone connect the positive side of >the injectors and coils to the always-hot battery bus and leave them >powered all the time, or are they generally always switched? What manufacture of EFII system and what are the recommendations of the manufacturer? >I'm leaning towards a dual-feed bus with diode-protected feeds from >the main contactor and a relay on an aux battery. I'll post a >schematic when I get done drawing it. What powers the rest of the airplane? What kind of engine. What architecture? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Krea Ellis <krea.ellis(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Alternator, battery and bus question
Date: Feb 14, 2020
What happens if an alternator is temporarily overloaded (lets say its rated at 40 amps) and you draw 45 amps. Assume the battery is well maintained and fully charged. A current limiter (ANL/AML) is installed as well. You intend to load shed, but dont do so immediately. What are the consequences? My assumption is the voltage will drop and the battery will supplement the alternator for some period of time until you can load shed and then the alternator will carry the entire load? I assume the current limiter will not blow with a short duration small overload. Thanks in advance for educating me. Krea Ellis ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 2020
From: Charles Kuss <chaskuss(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator, battery and bus question
Excessive output can either immediately or slowly over time, damage or dest roy one or more of the diodes in the alternators rectifier. The rectifier c onverts the AC current into the DC current that your aircraft needs. Most a lternators have six diodes in them. Normal failure mode is for a diode to f ail open circuit. So for each diode that fails you will lose one sixth of t he alternators output. More Insidious, is if a diode fails shorted. In that case there will be no drop-off in the alternators output and an ammeter te st will not show the failure. The failure will cause AC current to bleed in to the system. Batteries hate AC current. AC current will destroy a brand n ew battery in a few months. Charlie Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 10:08 PM, Krea Ellis wrote: m> What happens if an alternator is temporarily overloaded (let=99s say it=99s rated at 40 amps) and you draw 45 amps. Assume the battery is well maintained and fully charged. A current limiter (ANL/AML) is installed as well. You intend to load shed, but don=99t do so immediately. What are the consequences? My assumption is the voltage will drop and the battery will supplement the alternator for some period of time until you can load shed and then the alt ernator will carry the entire load? I assume the current limiter will not b low with a short duration small overload. Thanks in advance for educating me. Krea Ellis =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - S - WIKI - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 2020
From: Charles Kuss <chaskuss(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator, battery and bus question
The situation described in my last post is not likely to happen on an aircr aft that has a fully charged battery. The most common way that rectifier di odes get damaged is by jump starting a vehicle that has a dead battery. The alternator is then forced to generate current at maximum output for an ext ended length of time to refill the battery. That could cause the diodes to overheat and fail. So the lesson is if you have a dead battery don't just j ump start it. Recharge the battery before you start the engine. Charlie Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 10:08 PM, Krea Ellis wrote: m> What happens if an alternator is temporarily overloaded (let=99s say it=99s rated at 40 amps) and you draw 45 amps. Assume the battery is well maintained and fully charged. A current limiter (ANL/AML) is installed as well. You intend to load shed, but don=99t do so immediately. What are the consequences? My assumption is the voltage will drop and the battery will supplement the alternator for some period of time until you can load shed and then the alt ernator will carry the entire load? I assume the current limiter will not b low with a short duration small overload. Thanks in advance for educating me. Krea Ellis =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - S - WIKI - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: High intensity LEDs
From: "markfw" <markwheelermd(at)icloud.com>
Date: Feb 15, 2020
Bob, If you have any more of the high intensity LED's I could use two of them in RED. Please send them to: Mark Wheeler 1009 Western Ave #1207 Seattle, WA 98104 I have asked once before but you may not have seen it. If so, please ignore this message. Thank you! Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494816#494816 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Alternator, battery and bus question
From: "nuckollsr" <bob.nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Date: Feb 15, 2020
> What happens if an alternator is temporarily overloaded (lets say its rated at 40 amps) and you draw 45 amps. Assume the battery is well maintained and fully charged. A current limiter (ANL/AML) is installed as well. An alternator is inherently overload-proof. The magnetics prevent output at more than a few percent above nameplate rating. This is temperature dependent. We have discussed instances here on the list where a cold alternator attempting to stuff electrons into a badly discharged batter will trip the b-lead breaker on some single engine aircraft. This is rare but not unheard-off . . . happened to me once and the ensuing load-dump killed the regulator. Flew the whole drip in the dark-panel mode. A current limiter is exceedingly robust . . . they will carry 50 to 100 percent of rating indefinitely. This is why they are used as DISTRIBUTION protection and have replaced the legacy 60A breaker that was common on most single engine aircraft with 60A alternators. Assuming one has installed PROPER b-lead protection in the way of a current limiter, then all is well on the alternator side of the equation. An alternator cannot open it's own properly designed b-lead protection except in the case of BADLY damaged (shorted) rectifiers. Haven't seen a case of that since . . . oh . . . about 1975 on some Chrysler products. > You intend to load shed, but dont do so immediately. What are the consequences? The alternator will put out it's rated current indefinitely with no potential for hazard to any equipment in the airplane. It essentially becomes a constant current/constant voltage power supply operating in the constant current mode until demands are reduced whereupon bus voltage will rise to the regulation set-point and normal operations resume. > > My assumption is the voltage will drop and the battery will supplement the alternator for some period of time until you can load shed and then the alternator will carry the entire load? I assume the current limiter will not blow with a short duration small overload. Correct. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494819#494819 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Always hot power for fuel injectors and ignition
coils
From: "cofford" <cofford(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 15, 2020
They system is FlyEFII System32. The manufacturer recommends using their own bus manager system, which provides a diode-protected, arguably dual-feed switched bus (the terminal on the bus manager is dual-fed, but the engine components are all fed by a single wire). I'm sure the manufacturer's recommendations are fine in most cases. That being said, I'm an engineer in the manned spaceflight industry, and I don't like black boxes and easily avoidable single-point failures. The aircraft currently has no electrical system as I'm about to begin installing one. I've been considering both Z12 and Z19 architectures without an endurance bus. Thanks, Casey Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494820#494820 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Always hot power for fuel injectors and ignition
coils
From: "cofford" <cofford(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 15, 2020
Thanks Charlie, agree with your reasoning and I am heading towards a similar solution, though perhaps with a relay at the battery instead of a high-current switch. Just wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing something. Thanks, Casey Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494821#494821 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Alternator, battery and bus question
From: "nuckollsr" <bob.nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Date: Feb 15, 2020
[quote]The situation described in my last post is not likely to happen on an aircraft that has a fully charged battery. The most common way that rectifier diodes get damaged is by jump starting a vehicle that has a dead battery. The alternator is then forced to generate current at maximum output for an extended length of time to refill the battery. That could cause the diodes to overheat and fail. So the lesson is if you have a dead battery don't just jump start it. Recharge the battery before you start the engine. [quote] The legacy prohibition for doing a ground power start on a aircraft with a dead battery has more to do with risks to the battery than to the alternators/generators. Suppose you've got a PC680 or smaller battery on an airplane fitted with a 60A or larger alternator. That little hunk of plastic enclosed lead will quite willingly accept what ever the alternator offers. If bus loads are low, then you're going to be pounding the little feller pretty hard. Similarly, biz-jets might have a 40 a.h. battery charged by a PAIR of 300 or 400 amp starter generators. Same problem in spades. There is little risk for jump starting most light aircraft 'cause you can't get full output from the alternator at taxi rpms . . . so by the time you're out at the runway ready to take off, recharge current has dropped off substantially . . . but the risks are not zero. If you've got instrumentation to manage battery recharge rates it's no big deal. But try to add 3 or 4 paragraphs on this topic to the pilot's handbook on a TC GA aircraft and you'll have the sales wienies all over you. We used to have some nice fat loads (landing lights and pitot heaters) that would help manage recharge rates on SE aircraft. Those assets are going away. Know what needs to be done and make sure you CAN do it. Solution is a placard: "Charging a dead battery with ships generators is not recommended (or prohibited)." Risk goes away along with any need to further educate a pilot. Best thing to do is recharge the battery before spooling up for departure but there are alternatives for the astute owner/operator. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494822#494822 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 15, 2020
Subject: Re: Always hot power for fuel injectors and ignition
coils On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 5:25 PM cofford wrote: > > Thanks Charlie, agree with your reasoning and I am heading towards a > similar solution, though perhaps with a relay at the battery instead of a > high-current switch. Just wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing > something. > > Thanks, > Casey I considered another relay, but decided to use the switch since I found one with the current capability, and it eliminated a set of contacts (control for the relay), a coil, and multiple termination points connecting the control to the relay. Given the redundant feeds, probably not worth worrying about. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Always hot power for fuel injectors and ignition
coils
From: "cofford" <cofford(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 15, 2020
I had a chance to draw up some schematics. This is the dual battery system I've been kicking around for a while. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1vKln4Zl0CC24Si8QUW78MCfymVRQejvZ As I've given this more thought, a Z12 architecture with one battery makes quite a bit of sense. In that case, the schematic looks like this: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Q32syGUfgtm7dR-bksQex80r2olKD_Al Goals here were: 1. Any single component failure does not result in loss of power to the engine bus. 2. Any single failure does not require pilot action to keep power to the engine bus. 3. Any redundancy must have the ability to be checked during preflight. Comments are most welcome. Thanks!!! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494826#494826 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Always hot power for fuel injectors and ignition
coils
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 15, 2020
On the single battery system: If the EFIS has two voltmeter inputs, connect one to the main bus and one to the engine bus. Switching the aux power relay on and off while comparing the two voltmeters will confirm that the aux power relay is working. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494827#494827 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: A basic butt splice
From: "bcone1381" <bcone1964(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 16, 2020
Im planning my first basic electrical application on my experimental kit....the headset jacks. One 20awg wire will run to the two jacks then split Please confirm ...in order to split a 20wag wire into two separate 20awg wires using PODG crimp connectors a single blue 14-16awg butt splice would receive the two 20awg wires on one end and a single 20awg on the other crimped end maybe with a second very short 20awg wire added because the space in the blue butt connector is a size too large. -------- Brooks Cone Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494838#494838 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Always hot power for fuel injectors and ignition
coils
From: "nuckollsr" <bob.nuckolls(at)aeroelectric.com>
Date: Feb 16, 2020
A manufacturer of ANY accessory should be cautious about venturing outside their product into issues of aircraft architecture and systems integration. As we've studied over the years, off-hand recommendations or even citations of, "This is what I fly in my airplane" are seldom examples of the lowest parts count, lowest cost of ownership and minimized risk across the full spectrum of potential installations. Further, when offered by individuals of limited experience, the potential for designed in risk goes up. For decades my teachers said, "draw a box around the gizmo for which you are writing a specification. Describe all inputs, outputs and expected performance for what goes on INSIDE your box . . . then quit. In the case before us, the 'box' is your EFIS system. It's a perfectly valid request that one or more inputs require, "Failure tolerant source of power from x.x to xx.x volts DC at x.x amps". The selection of architecture and operating philosophy are a separate specification embracing design goals that are seldom known by the appliance manufacturer. Your design goal is to minimize risk to the WHOLE system which starts with you, includes a complex machine with lots of potential for failure all topped off the the environment through which you are flying. No matter how many multi-feed busses, standby batteries, extra alternators you design into your project, demonstrated realities tell us that the greatest single cause for engine failure is running out of gas . . . and the biggest risk for hitting the mountain does not arise from a blown fuse on the gps. Engine not withstanding, there are lots of electro- whizzies that we would like to keep lit up. Keeping the engine running in case everything else has gone dark only improves the probability that you'll hit the rocks under power. I suggest that adding an 'engine bus' is redundant and unnecessary for Z12 with one battery (well maintained . . . of course) and two engine driven power sources . Keep in mind that a 'battery bus' is an always hot distribution device located adjacent to the battery and fitted with protective devices consistent with crash worthiness design goals. A bus located elsewhere powered through any form of switch gear and 'protected' with distribution- rated limiters or fusible links is not a battery bus . . . it's just another bus with its own purpose/nomenclature. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494839#494839 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 16, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: A basic butt splice
At 01:31 PM 2/16/2020, you wrote: > >I=99m planning my first basic electrical >application on my experimental kit....the >headset jacks. One 20awg wire will run to the two jacks then split > >Please confirm ...in order to split a 20wag wire >into two separate 20awg wires using PODG crimp >connectors a single blue 14-16awg butt splice >would receive the two 20awg wires on one end and >a single 20awg on the other crimped end maybe >with a second very short 20awg wire added >because the space in the blue butt connector is a size too large. Two 20AWG Tefzel wires will fit nicely into a RED PIDG splice . . . Emacs! . . . with your single 20AWG going into the other end. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 16, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Last design task for Raytheon
Setting up new computer. While cleaning off some old files on an archive-drive, I stumbled across a video of first-flight on the last vehicle design program I worked for RAC. This missile is intended to fly very low over the water . . . perhaps 30' off the surface . . . at very high speeds. Something on the order of M4. Powered by air-breathing ram-jets, it has to be flying at better than M2.0 before the engines will light off. If memory serves, it achieves engine start velocity in just a few seconds with acceleration rates of over 20G. I designed an all solid-state, power distribution controller that eliminated relays used on our legacy products. http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/D-Sub_Power_Dist_2.jpg First flight video can be viewed here: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Video/GQM-163_First-Flight.mp4 Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Always hot power for fuel injectors and ignition
coils
From: "cofford" <cofford(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 16, 2020
Hi Bob, Thanks for your thoughts. I plan on mounting my battery on the firewall, and the engine fuse block on the cabin side, near the battery and pass-through. The relay would be mounted to the battery box. I was not planning on adding any circuit protection devices to the engine bus relay feed. Here's the whole architecture as of today: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1asF6lxJcRF4q06fiD3ytd3ktgnxzHuLJ/view?usp=sharing Thanks, Casey Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494845#494845 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: A basic butt splice
From: "bcone1381" <bcone1964(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 16, 2020
Thanks Bob!! I understand...Two 20 AWG wires fit into a red crimp connector. Is there any standardized chart or method we might call a BEST PRACTICE to calculate how many wires or certain sized in each size PIDG connector? -------- Brooks Cone Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494846#494846 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 16, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: A basic butt splice
At 09:06 PM 2/16/2020, you wrote: > >Thanks Bob!! > >I understand...Two 20 AWG wires fit into a red crimp connector. > >Is there any standardized chart or method we might call a BEST >PRACTICE to calculate how many wires or certain sized in each size >PIDG connector? Not that I'm aware of. The idea is to fill the barrel with enough copper that you get a gas-tight joint when the tool is applied. http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html you probably can't put too much wire into the terminal. The biggest risk is too little wire such that the crimp doesn't completely close down on all the stranding. When in doubt about too little, strip 2x for length of exposed strands, double them back before inserting. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John B <jbsoar(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 16, 2020
Subject: Re: Last design task for Raytheon
Bob- This missile is fantastic! Deployed or not, your technology moved our great nation forward! Thank you for your contribution! John B On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 8:51 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> > > Setting up new computer. While cleaning off some old > files on an archive-drive, I stumbled across a video > of first-flight on the last vehicle design program > I worked for RAC. > > This missile is intended to fly very low over the > water . . . perhaps 30' off the surface . . . at > very high speeds. Something on the order of M4. > Powered by air-breathing ram-jets, it has to be flying > at better than M2.0 before the engines will light off. > If memory serves, it achieves engine start velocity in just > a few seconds with acceleration rates of over 20G. > > I designed an all solid-state, power distribution controller > that eliminated relays used on our legacy products. > > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/D-Sub_Power_Dist_2.jpg > > First flight video can be viewed here: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Video/GQM-163_First-Flight.mp4 > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 16, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Always hot power for fuel injectors and ignition
coils At 09:04 PM 2/16/2020, you wrote: > >Hi Bob, > >Thanks for your thoughts. I plan on mounting my battery on the >firewall, and the engine fuse block on the cabin side, near the >battery and pass-through. The relay would be mounted to the battery >box. I was not planning on adding any circuit protection devices to >the engine bus relay feed. Why the relay? Why not run all those engine feeds off the main bus? That way, if the engine is running, all the other stuff is running too . . . and vice versa. Then your task is simpler. Keep the main bus hot . . . a goal that has been successfully achieved on thousands of airplanes for a long time. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Earl Schroeder <n233ee(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Last design task for Raytheon
Date: Feb 16, 2020
> On Feb 16, 2020, at 8:51 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > Setting up new computer. While cleaning off some old > files on an archive-drive, I stumbled across a video > of first-flight on the last vehicle design program > I worked for RAC. > Neat !! Those were the days.. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 16, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Always hot power for fuel injectors and ignition
coils At 09:04 PM 2/16/2020, you wrote: > >Hi Bob, > >Thanks for your thoughts. I plan on mounting my battery on the >firewall, and the engine fuse block on the cabin side, near the >battery and pass-through. The relay would be mounted to the battery >box. I was not planning on adding any circuit protection devices to >the engine bus relay feed. Why the relay? Why not run all those engine feeds off the main bus? That way, if the engine is running, all the other stuff is running too . . . and vice versa. Then your task is simpler. Keep the main bus hot . . . a goal that has been successfully achieved on thousands of airplanes for a long time. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Feb 16, 2020
Subject: Re: Last design task for Raytheon
That's awesome, Bob. Real engineering! -- Art Z. On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 9:02 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> > > Setting up new computer. While cleaning off some old > files on an archive-drive, I stumbled across a video > of first-flight on the last vehicle design program > I worked for RAC. > > This missile is intended to fly very low over the > water . . . perhaps 30' off the surface . . . at > very high speeds. Something on the order of M4. > Powered by air-breathing ram-jets, it has to be flying > at better than M2.0 before the engines will light off. > If memory serves, it achieves engine start velocity in just > a few seconds with acceleration rates of over 20G. > > I designed an all solid-state, power distribution controller > that eliminated relays used on our legacy products. > > http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/D-Sub_Power_Dist_2.jpg > > First flight video can be viewed here: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Video/GQM-163_First-Flight.mp4 > > > Bob . . . > > -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *Sooner meet a bereaved she-bear than a fool with his nonsense. *Proverbs 17:12 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Always hot power for fuel injectors and ignition
coils
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 16, 2020
On 2/16/2020 9:34 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 09:04 PM 2/16/2020, you wrote: >> >> Hi Bob, >> >> Thanks for your thoughts. I plan on mounting my battery on the >> firewall, and the engine fuse block on the cabin side, near the >> battery and pass-through. The relay would be mounted to the battery >> box. I was not planning on adding any circuit protection devices to >> the engine bus relay feed. > > Why the relay? Why not run all those engine > feeds off the main bus? That way, if the engine > is running, all the other stuff is running too . . . > and vice versa. > > Then your task is simpler. Keep the main bus > hot . . . a goal that has been successfully > achieved on thousands of airplanes for > a long time. > > > Bob . . . > I'll take a swat at it. 'Ingrained habits/training'. From a purely functional standpoint, sure, but... We've spent our whole flying careers expecting the engine control (mag switches) to be independent from airframe electrical control. I might be a minority of one, but it seems to me that even if I'm intimately familiar with my plane's unusual switchology characteristics, someone else likely won't be. And in the (admittedly rare) case of the legendary 'smoke in the cockpit' scenario, we've all been trained to make the electrical system 'cold' first, then try to work our way back to restoring power, if we can. By having the much more elaborate switchology of an electronically controlled engine on an independent bus, we can hopefully avoid having 'muscle memory' cause a problem, instead of solving one. The guys who've been flying alternative engines for years are much more reluctant to allow someone else to fly their planes, and a big driving factor is that engine operation is so different in many of the installations. When we add electronic fuel injection to a traditional engine, it really has become an 'alternative engine' as far as operational issues are concerned. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 17, 2020
Subject: Re: Last design task for Raytheon
...and the Iranians want to mess with you guys!! lol Best... Bob Verwey 082 331 2727 On Mon, 17 Feb 2020 at 06:30, Art Zemon wrote: > That's awesome, Bob. Real engineering! > > -- Art Z. > > > On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 9:02 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > >> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> >> >> Setting up new computer. While cleaning off some old >> files on an archive-drive, I stumbled across a video >> of first-flight on the last vehicle design program >> I worked for RAC. >> >> This missile is intended to fly very low over the >> water . . . perhaps 30' off the surface . . . at >> very high speeds. Something on the order of M4. >> Powered by air-breathing ram-jets, it has to be flying >> at better than M2.0 before the engines will light off. >> If memory serves, it achieves engine start velocity in just >> a few seconds with acceleration rates of over 20G. >> >> I designed an all solid-state, power distribution controller >> that eliminated relays used on our legacy products. >> >> http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/D-Sub_Power_Dist_2.jpg >> >> First flight video can be viewed here: >> >> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Video/GQM-163_First-Flight.mp4 >> >> >> >> Bob . . . >> >> ========== >> br> fts!) >> r> > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> ========== >> - >> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ========== >> FORUMS - >> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> WIKI - >> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >> ========== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > *Sooner meet a bereaved she-bear than a fool with his nonsense. *Proverbs > 17:12 > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Krea Ellis <krea.ellis(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Always Hot Power to Injectors and Ignition Coils
Date: Feb 17, 2020
Sorry, still not able to post directly. A couple of questions. How will you do a =9Cmag check=9D if the coils are always powered? Or is your switch going to provide only the ground? At least in the case of SDS, a switch for each coil pack is recommended. They do not recommend switching off the ECU for a mag check. One of my design goals was to be able to switch off the alternators and batteries to the main busses using lever lock type Honeywell TL mil-spec switches. Assuming at least one of the hot battery busses is powered (no switches, no relays/contactors) - the engine keeps running normally. Does anyone have any experience with the somewhat pricey but seemingly reliable and well built Gigavac MX series contactors? I realize they aren=99t available on the aviation aisle at NAPA, but I can always carry a spare. Lastly, what software are you guys using to draw your very nice electrical schematics? I=99m looking for something that doesn =99t have a steep learning curve that an old guy can pick up reasonably quickly. Thanks for the help and education. Krea Ellis ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Always hot power for fuel injectors and ignition
coils
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 17, 2020
Charlie, you are not a minority of one. I am on your side. The master switch should shut off all electrical power except to the engine. The engine bus should be supplied by two current paths. The pilot should have the ability to shut off all sources of electrical power as close to the sources as possible. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494858#494858 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Always hot power for fuel injectors and ignition
coils
Date: Feb 17, 2020
Not a minority of two either. Bob Reed Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 17, 2020, at 8:11 AM, user9253 wrote: > > > Charlie, you are not a minority of one. I am on your side. The master switch > should shut off all electrical power except to the engine. The engine bus > should be supplied by two current paths. The pilot should have the ability to > shut off all sources of electrical power as close to the sources as possible. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494858#494858 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ronald Cox <flyboyron(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 17, 2020
Subject: Re: Last design task for Raytheon
> > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Last design task for Raytheon > > > Setting up new computer. While cleaning off some old > files on an archive-drive, I stumbled across a video > of first-flight on the last vehicle design program > I worked for RAC. > ... > > > That is extremely cool. That thing "gets to getting" pretty darned fast. That is extremely cool. That beast "gits to gittin" like right NOW. Has to be interesting to design for those kinds of accelerations. Very cool. Ron > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Foghorn Inc <foghorn757(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Always hot power for fuel injectors and ignition
coils
Date: Feb 17, 2020
Im on board with this philosophy too. Jeff Parker > On Feb 17, 2020, at 09:43, Robert Reed wrote: > > > Not a minority of two either. > > Bob Reed > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Feb 17, 2020, at 8:11 AM, user9253 wrote: >> >> >> Charlie, you are not a minority of one. I am on your side. The master switch >> should shut off all electrical power except to the engine. The engine bus >> should be supplied by two current paths. The pilot should have the ability to >> shut off all sources of electrical power as close to the sources as possible. >> >> -------- >> Joe Gores >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494858#494858 >> >> >>


January 22, 2020 - February 16, 2020

AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-pg