AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-pj

April 14, 2020 - May 03, 2020



      
      
        Hmmm . . only one capacitor? If so, the capacitor
        is significant only for starting. If it spools up
        slowly -AND- lugs down under load, I'm thinking
        the motor has hurt windings . . . not good if
        this is the case.
      
        There is a centrifugal switch that disconnects
        the start winding and its companion capacitor
        after the motor reaches some fraction of
        nameplate rpm. If that switch is burned, then
        it wouldn't start at all. The fact that
        it is 'sluggish' at all times does not bode well.
      
      
         Bob . . . 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 3/4HP Belt Sander Motor
From: Brian Phillips <barp99(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 14, 2020
On 14/04/2020 10:05 am, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 02:46 PM 4/13/2020, you wrote: >> Not directly aircraft related but a tool that I use extensively in >> construction of my Bearhawk for shaping metal parts. The motor is now >> spooling up very slowly and when a load is placed on it, slows down >> considerably. As far as I can tell, it is brushless, It's described >> as Type: TEFC Capacitor-Start Induction and does have a large >> external capacitor. Any ideas on repairing instead of replacing this? > > > Hmmm . . only one capacitor? If so, the capacitor > is significant only for starting. If it spools up > slowly -AND- lugs down under load, I'm thinking > the motor has hurt windings . . . not good if > this is the case. > > There is a centrifugal switch that disconnects > the start winding and its companion capacitor > after the motor reaches some fraction of > nameplate rpm. If that switch is burned, then > it wouldn't start at all. The fact that > it is 'sluggish' at all times does not bode well. > > Bob . . . > There is a small chance it is a capacitor run motor. A capacitor run motor has no centrifugal switch, and the second winding stays in circuit. If your capacitor starts to fail, its capacitance will drop, reducing the phase angle between the two magnetic fluxes, reducing start and run torque. If no centrifugal switch, check the capacitor for correct capacitance, and replace if low, this may be an easy and cheap fix. Brian Phillips. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au>
Subject: Re: 3/4HP Belt Sander Motor
Date: Apr 14, 2020
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From: <mike(at)vision499.com>
Subject: Aircraft Tug
Date: Apr 13, 2020
Just a quick question, why did you not keep the seat, would it not improve traction if you had the extra weight? Thanks Mike From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-list -server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Joe Motis Sent: April 12, 2020 12:56 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug Her you go Mike I could not find another picture but I mounted a trailer hitch ball on to o f the frame right behind the batteries and fabricated a tow bar with a hitc h connector on it. Works excellent. On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 12:42 PM > wrote: Hello all I=99m looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of wha t specs I=99m looking at. One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for contin uous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and I =99m not sure if it will cope with that distance. A friend has also suggest ed converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure i f that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas Thanks Mike Virus-free. www.avast.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: How to activate office 2007 and 2019?
From: "john_kelly" <johnkellypcexpert(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 14, 2020
If you looking for Microsoft Office download, install and activate follow the instructions by our instructor with no doubt. (I) Go to office.com/setup (https://officemyoffice.com/) (II) Enter Office setup product key (III) Select Office "version" Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495809#495809 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: New role for the E-Bus?
I've been working on three new z-figures between wrestling bouts with my dad's '87 GMC pickup truck (fuel pump died . . . as long as I have to pull the whole tank to replace the pump, I'm replacing EVERYTHING . . . I'm down to the last two fasteners holding the tank supports on the frame . . . 30+ years of rust . . . Impact wrench won't budge 'em. Been soaking with penetrating oil but about resigned to cutting the nuts off with an air-chisel!) I've posted the latest iterations of the drawings we've been combing out here over the past couple of months. Z100 at https://tinyurl.com/sfsbd2t This is the generic architecture that's been flown successfully in hundreds of thousands of airplanes in the TC and OBAM aviation worlds. This drawing could have been in Tony Bengelis books . . . same as a C150 sans avionics bus (which was never a good idea anyhow). Then: Z101 at https://tinyurl.com/v9w7g4r This is Z100 any combination of 4 options: (1) Robust AUX Alternator (2) Dual feed, triple source ENGINE bus to support electrically dependent engine and ancillary instrumentation. (3) A CLEARANCE DELIVERY bus that offers a means for powering up JUST the COMM transceiver for preflight planning (4) A brownout boost feature on the CD bus to support wobbly electro-whizzies vulnerable to unacceptable reset during starter inrush interval. Then: Z101/8 at https://tinyurl.com/vanp6yu Essentially the same as Z101 except for a smaller AUX alternator in lieu of the bigger rascal depicted in Z101. This configuration offers all the features and reliability with reduced weight and cost over Z101 where the builder's anticipated loads under failure of main alternator are modest. The way the AUX ALT is set up on these drawings makes it easy to upgrade from a /8 to the larger alternator as later needs dictate. These drawings depict variations suggested in a constellation of Z-figures . . . a kind of LEGO approach to acquiring capabilities of any legacy z-figure at the simplest, lightest, lowest cost yet failure tolerant architecturs. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Joe Motis <joemotis(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 14, 2020
Subject: Re: Aircraft Tug
With The lead acid batteries right where the trailer hitch ball was I think never had a traction problem. And that pulling my friends big twin 2 I would just pulling my Cherokee 180 with it and that thing would drag it all over the air Park the benefit to use in one of those old Mobility devices in my opinion was that everything was there it was geared down it was meant to drag around a 300-pound person it had proportional forward and reverse controls and a charger built in On Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:36 PM wrote: > Just a quick question, why did you not keep the seat, would it not improv e > traction if you had the extra weight? > > > Thanks > > > Mike > > > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com < > owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> *On Behalf Of *Joe Motis > *Sent:* April 12, 2020 12:56 PM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug > > > Her you go Mike > > [image: 1014001835[1].jpg]I could not find another picture but I mounted > a trailer hitch ball on to of the frame right behind the batteries and > fabricated a tow bar with a hitch connector on it. Works excellent. > > > On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 12:42 PM wrote: > > > Hello all > > > I=99m looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride > on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. > > > I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few > 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure o f > what specs I=99m looking at. > > > One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for > continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and > I=99m not sure if it will cope with that distance. A friend has als o > suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that > entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems idea l > but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right > down. > > > I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas > > > Thanks > > > Mike > > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <mike(at)vision499.com>
Subject: Aircraft Tug
Date: Apr 14, 2020
Thank you very much, you have convinced me, I was looking forward to buildi ng a tug from scratch but it will be a lot cheaper and easier to adapt a mo bility scooter I am looking for a used one to convert, will let you know how it turns out Thanks again Mike From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-list -server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Joe Motis Sent: April 14, 2020 8:37 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug With The lead acid batteries right where the trailer hitch ball was I think never had a traction problem. And that pulling my friends big twin 2 I wou ld just pulling my Cherokee 180 with it and that thing would drag it all ov er the air Park the benefit to use in one of those old Mobility devices in my opinion was that everything was there it was geared down it was meant to drag around a 300-pound person it had proportional forward and reverse con trols and a charger built in On Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:36 PM > wrote: Just a quick question, why did you not keep the seat, would it not improve traction if you had the extra weight? Thanks Mike From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <mailto:owner-aeroelectr ic-list-server(at)matronics.com> > On Behalf Of Joe Motis Sent: April 12, 2020 12:56 PM > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug Her you go Mike I could not find another picture but I mounted a trailer hitch ball on to o f the frame right behind the batteries and fabricated a tow bar with a hitc h connector on it. Works excellent. On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 12:42 PM > wrote: Hello all I=99m looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of wha t specs I=99m looking at. One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for contin uous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and I =99m not sure if it will cope with that distance. A friend has also suggest ed converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure i f that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas Thanks Mike Virus-free. www.avast.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Joe Motis <joemotis(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 14, 2020
Subject: Re: Aircraft Tug
Certainly my pleasure good luck! On Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 12:04 PM wrote: > Thank you very much, you have convinced me, I was looking forward to > building a tug from scratch but it will be a lot cheaper and easier to > adapt a mobility scooter > > > I am looking for a used one to convert, will let you know how it turns ou t > > > Thanks again > > > Mike > > > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com < > owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> *On Behalf Of *Joe Motis > *Sent:* April 14, 2020 8:37 AM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug > > > With The lead acid batteries right where the trailer hitch ball was I > think never had a traction problem. And that pulling my friends big twin 2 > I would just pulling my Cherokee 180 with it and that thing would drag it > all over the air Park the benefit to use in one of those old Mobility > devices in my opinion was that everything was there it was geared down it > was meant to drag around a 300-pound person it had proportional forward a nd > reverse controls and a charger built in > > > On Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:36 PM wrote: > > Just a quick question, why did you not keep the seat, would it not improv e > traction if you had the extra weight? > > > Thanks > > > Mike > > > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com < > owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> *On Behalf Of *Joe Motis > *Sent:* April 12, 2020 12:56 PM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug > > > Her you go Mike > > [image: 1014001835[1].jpg]I could not find another picture but I mounted > a trailer hitch ball on to of the frame right behind the batteries and > fabricated a tow bar with a hitch connector on it. Works excellent. > > > On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 12:42 PM wrote: > > > Hello all > > > I=99m looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride > on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. > > > I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few > 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure o f > what specs I=99m looking at. > > > One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for > continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and > I=99m not sure if it will cope with that distance. A friend has als o > suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that > entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems idea l > but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right > down. > > > I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas > > > Thanks > > > Mike > > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: New role for the E-Bus?
From: "Eric Page" <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 14, 2020
Bob, I like these architectures a lot, and I think they'd work very well in the day/night VFR Kitfox I plan to build, hopefully one day soon. They're easy to understand, which would make them easy to install, operate and maintain. Low parts count and simplicity would offer high reliability. They look like winners to me. I just noticed a couple of minor quibbles: 1. In all three drawings, the legends show a small square symbol indicating "2AWG EQUAL STRAP," but this symbol does not appear to be used in the drawings. 2. In Z101 and Z101/8, naming of the CD BUS is inconsistent. The actual bus is labeled "CLRNC DELVRY," but the feeds from the diode bridge and the BATTERY BUS are labeled "B.O. BUS." Cheers, Eric Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495823#495823 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: New role for the E-Bus?
At 06:52 PM 4/14/2020, you wrote: > >I just noticed a couple of minor quibbles: > >1. In all three drawings, the legends show a small square symbol >indicating "2AWG EQUAL STRAP," but this symbol does not appear to be >used in the drawings. Yes, those are boiler-plate notes from the suit of legacy drawings. Also, there's a 'fat wire tie point' adjacent to the battery contactor. When stacking lots of terminals on the stud of a contactor, there is competition for wire orientation off the stud. Further, many studs are too short to accept the full stack of terminals. Nonetheless, contactors offer robust tie points for multiple wires . . . particularly fat ones. I'm pondering options for a DIY 'stud expander' suitable for bringing too many wires together at the contactor. Still hashing out some options. Watch this space. >2. In Z101 and Z101/8, naming of the CD BUS is inconsistent. The >actual bus is labeled "CLRNC DELVRY," but the feeds from the diode >bridge and the BATTERY BUS are labeled "B.O. BUS." Yeah, that bus will service numerous design goals that range from the simple, single accessory (comm) tasked with clearance delivery. It could become an ENDURANCE BUS for ships with no AUX ALTERNATOR . . . and yes, if some of your accessories are plagued with brown-out reset issues, then it could be called a BROWN-OUT bus . . . or some combination of all three tasks. Perhaps POLYBUS is a better term that embraces all the goals? I think these drawings have potential for replacing many of the legacy z-drawings but they will require a comprehensive narrative to guide new user's selection and implementation of features. Thanks for taking the time to review and comment. These drawings may be up to P10 before they get offered as best recommendations! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: New role for the E-Bus?
From: "bcone1381" <bcone1964(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 14, 2020
Z100 has With Endurance and Brownout Bus in its title, but I don't see them in the drawing. -------- Brooks Cone Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495825#495825 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 04/14/20
From: John Livingston <livingjw(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Apr 15, 2020
WRT Z101, during operation would you advise setting the Aux switches ON or OFF? John ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Next Generation Z-Figures
At 07:35 AM 4/15/2020, you wrote: > > >WRT Z101, during operation would you advise setting the Aux switches >ON or OFF? For normal ops, not necessary. When MAIN BUS is hot, all busses are hot. Even if you're flying on the AUX ALT, no repositioning of other switches is necessary -unless- selective load reductions are necessary based on criticality of individual busses. Distribution of loads to the various busses is part of your design goals for crafting Plan A, everything up and running -OR- Plan B, continued flight to intended destination on the AUX alternator. It may not be the same for every project. But if one feels better with alternate feeds ON . . . it doesn't hurt anything. There are no risks that arise from 'mis-positioning' any switch. Like the legacy z-figures, this suite of drawings will be supported with copious notes including a pre-flight checklist that will exercise all funtionalities before launching into the blue. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring
From: "MFleming" <sagriver(at)icloud.com>
Date: Apr 15, 2020
The Z-12 Architecture looks like it will fit my goals for my RV-7 I'm building. The question I could not find an answer to when searching this list is: For economic reasons, can I wire for the back-up alternator but not install it until a later date? If I can defer the installation of the alternator and regulator, would I just secure the wiring to prevent shorts or are there other considerations? And while we are discussing the Z-12 Architecture...is there a newer version not in the 12 edition? Seem to me I ran across a reference to an updated version (Z-01?) on this list but I have been unable to find that reference again. -------- Michael Fleming Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495828#495828 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 15, 2020
MFleming wrote: > ... Seems to me I ran across a reference to an updated version of Z-12 (Z-01?) on this list but I have been unable to find that reference again. Hi Mike, There's a thread called " New role for the E-Bus?" at http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16775049&sid=beec687018ed2b0a52a9d69799f3d944 Bob introduces the new Z-101, labeled "preliminary" at this time, on the fourth page of that thread starting with this posting: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16775049&start=76&sid=beec687018ed2b0a52a9d69799f3d944 Bob has a tremendous number of files online. The PDF drawings are in the folder called "Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs" at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/ More files are at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/ http://www.aeroelectric.com/Books/Connection/ http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/ http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Accidents/ -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360 Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F. john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495830#495830 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring
At 06:13 PM 4/15/2020, you wrote: > >The Z-12 Architecture looks like it will fit my goals for my RV-7 >I'm building. > >The question I could not find an answer to when searching this list is: >For economic reasons, can I wire for the back-up alternator but not >install it until a later date? Sure >If I can defer the installation of the alternator and regulator, >would I just secure the wiring to prevent shorts or are there other >considerations? Nope, just cap the wires and mechanically secure them. >And while we are discussing the Z-12 Architecture...is there a newer >version not in the 12 edition? Seem to me I ran across a reference >to an updated version (Z-01?) on this list but I have been unable to >find that reference again. See my posting 4/14/20 on "New Role for the E-bus" where you'll find links to a suite of drawings presently being reviewed here on the List. Do you plan an electrically dependent engine? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring
From: "MFleming" <sagriver(at)icloud.com>
Date: Apr 15, 2020
Thank you for the feedback... I found the files, can't wait to look them over thoroughly. I'm planning on one Pmag...I'm not sure if that qualifies as electrically dependent but I would guess yes. Is the new thinking that Z-12 is outdated? I worked my way through the book and really like Z-12. -------- Michael Fleming Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495832#495832 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring
At 10:47 PM 4/15/2020, you wrote: > >Thank you for the feedback... > >I found the files, can't wait to look them over thoroughly. > >I'm planning on one Pmag...I'm not sure if that qualifies as >electrically dependent but I would guess yes. > >Is the new thinking that Z-12 is outdated? I worked my way through >the book and really like Z-12. Z12 works . . . it's flying on a boat-load of TC SE aircraft. The only thing I would change is to replace the SB-1 regulator with a generic "ford" regulator. The AUX ALTernator runs for seconds during pre-flight and otherwise only when needed . . . which will be rare. LV warning and OV protection in the full-up SB-1 controller adds no remarkable value. The rudimentary regulator will be just fine running 'barefoot' for what should not exceed a few hours in the lifetime of the airplane. Figure Z101 depicts this recommendation as an alternative to Z12 which also offers the 3-layer functionality of Z13/8 and the previously offered Z13/20. But Z12 as published is just fine if that's your wish. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Minimum ANL size of 35A vs. power feed AWG
From: "Colyn Case" <colyncase(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Apr 16, 2020
Hi Bob, I apologize for my somewhat wise-ass answer to Joe's post. Clearly I have a lot to learn. We always fight the last war and my last war was smoke coming from behind the panel that someone else wired. I could barely even get a look in there let alone identify the offending part. My response is I am now rewiring the airplane. Hence lots of questioning. It is a Lancair IV-P, usually overheated by the sun but manmade heat is from the output of the turbos. What prompted this question is that I ended up with a co-pilot side CB panel. All the feeds from the firewall go there. ...and then I have a console CB panel where all the important stuff is. The main bus comes through the firewall as a 6 AWG wire and goes to the side CB panel. From there it goes to the center CB panel. On the latter, I can conjure up 67 continuous amps. But that assumes hydraulic pump is at max pressure and stays there (I've never seen it there for more than 2 seconds), pitot heat is on, TKS pump is on, my ancient strobes, incandescent nav lights, HID landing lights, incandesent taxi lights, the COM is transmitting. ...a situation that never happens. It's about an 8' run over to the center CB, but even at that imaginary 67 amp load, on this 28V airplane, I could in theory handle it with an 8 AWG wire from the side CB panel to the center CB panel. ...but that would burn through before the ANL interrupted. So you are saying, don't worry about the ANL. Can I also not worry about maintaining 6 AWG all the way to the center CB panel? While we're at it, I have a 27 amp "E-bus". (Yes I know that is extreme but really that's my whole g3xtouch system with all its canbus friends and relatives includeing the eis and auto pilot) Today I broke one of the diodes that feeds it and am looking for some replqcements. How do I identify those at digikey or wherever? -------- Colyn Case colyncase(at)earthlink.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495856#495856 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 2020
From: Jeff Page <jpx(at)qenesis.com>
Subject: Re: New role for the E-Bus?
Hi Bob, I just had a good look at Z101. I like it. Five comments, certainly things you have thought of. 1) There is no overvoltage protection for the aux alternator. I assume that is because having an overvoltage event immediately after having a main alternator failure is too unlikely to justify it ? 2) Is the intention that the Engine Bus Alternate Feed be on during normal flight ? If not, switching off the Master or a battery contactor failure would remove power from the electronic ignition. 3) During normal flight, the brown out booster is unpowered, but the power from the Clearance Delivery bus back feeds into its output. Are these devices typically okay with this ? 4) Is there a risk that the brown out booster could generate a significant overvoltage event ? Given their switching method to boost voltage, I think not ? 5) The green color used for the engine bus circuitry is too light a green, making it hard to read. I suggest a shade darker. Thanks ! Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: New role for the E-Bus? > > I've been working on three new z-figures between > wrestling bouts with my dad's '87 GMC pickup > truck (fuel pump died . . . as long as I have > to pull the whole tank to replace the pump, I'm > replacing EVERYTHING . . . I'm down to the > last two fasteners holding the tank supports > on the frame . . . 30+ years of rust . . . > Impact wrench won't budge 'em. Been soaking > with penetrating oil but about resigned to > cutting the nuts off with an air-chisel!) > > I've posted the latest iterations of the > drawings we've been combing out here over > the past couple of months. > > Z100 at https://tinyurl.com/sfsbd2t > > This is the generic architecture that's > been flown successfully in hundreds of thousands > of airplanes in the TC and OBAM aviation worlds. > > This drawing could have been in Tony Bengelis > books . . . same as a C150 sans avionics bus > (which was never a good idea anyhow). Then: > > Z101 at https://tinyurl.com/v9w7g4r > > This is Z100 any combination of 4 options: > > (1) Robust AUX Alternator > > (2) Dual feed, triple source ENGINE bus > to support electrically dependent > engine and ancillary instrumentation. > > (3) A CLEARANCE DELIVERY bus that offers > a means for powering up JUST the > COMM transceiver for preflight > planning > > (4) A brownout boost feature on the > CD bus to support wobbly electro-whizzies > vulnerable to unacceptable reset > during starter inrush interval. > > Then: > > Z101/8 at https://tinyurl.com/vanp6yu > > Essentially the same as Z101 except for a > smaller AUX alternator in lieu of the bigger > rascal depicted in Z101. > > This configuration offers all the features > and reliability with reduced weight and > cost over Z101 where the builder's anticipated > loads under failure of main alternator are > modest. The way the AUX ALT is set up on > these drawings makes it easy to upgrade > from a /8 to the larger alternator as > later needs dictate. > > These drawings depict variations suggested > in a constellation of Z-figures . . . a > kind of LEGO approach to acquiring capabilities > of any legacy z-figure at the simplest, > lightest, lowest cost yet failure tolerant > architecturs. > > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Minimum ANL size of 35A vs. power feed AWG
>It's about an 8' run over to the center CB, but even at that >imaginary 67 amp load, on this 28V airplane, I could in theory >handle it with an 8 AWG wire from the side CB panel to the center CB >panel. ...but that would burn through before the ANL interrupted. > >So you are saying, don't worry about the ANL. Can I also not worry >about maintaining 6 AWG all the way to the center CB panel? You're over-worrying it. Drop the wire gage for the last leg of the trip to center panel. Ditch the ANL. >While we're at it, I have a 27 amp "E-bus". (Yes I know that is >extreme but really that's my whole g3xtouch system with all its >canbus friends and relatives includeing the eis and auto >pilot) Today I broke one of the diodes that feeds it and am >looking for some replqcements. How do I identify those at digikey >or wherever? Is this a bridge rectifier type? Just about anything that LOOKS like it will do. Voltage rating is not terribly significant in the 28v system. Current rating is more significant. HOWEVER, with this much current through the device, I'd plan on some heat sinking . . . say 36 square inches of aluminum sheet or equivalent. You can 'kill' a 50A rated diode with 30A flowing if it's not heat sinked. Here's a likely candidate: https://tinyurl.com/yahl74yy Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Minimum ANL size of 35A vs. power feed AWG
>It's about an 8' run over to the center CB, but even at that >imaginary 67 amp load, on this 28V airplane Really? Have you conducted a load analysis? This isn't a 'conjuring' activity, it's a numerical analysis of your architecture, component sizing, failure modes and crafting of plan-B etc. You can do this on a spread-sheet . . . there are several examples in Excel to be had at https://tinyurl.com/9rt6ymn but my personal favorite is the hand-entered and edited chart https://tinyurl.com/7jqypwj One sheet per bus. Each line depicts a accessory feeder. You pick the protection size (either fuse or breaker . . . don't fuss over the symbol, just get a number on it). Pick the wire size. Then fill in the boxes as to the current draw for each accessory in the flight conditions called out across the top. When I do a wirebook, the architecture drawing comes first then these pages follow. I had a column to call out the page on which that accessory's wiring details are called out. Hence, the architecture and loads pages become the foundation and index to the whole system which gets added on subsequent pages. I'm a bit perplexed by that 67A assertion above . . . I'd like to know how that was arrived at . . . you really NEED to know that the number(s) are golden. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: New role for the E-Bus?
At 12:46 AM 4/17/2020, you wrote: > >Hi Bob, > >I just had a good look at Z101. I like it. Five comments, certainly >things you have thought of. > >1) There is no overvoltage protection for the aux alternator. I >assume that is because having an overvoltage event immediately after >having a main alternator failure is too unlikely to justify it ? EXACTLY. In an ideal world, the AUX alernator will never be operated in 'distress'. In a practical world, it would be unusual to have it see more than a hand-full of hours operation over the lifetime of the airplane. It gets pre-flight tested. OV events are also rare. Adding that protection just doesn't seem justified. Hence simple, light, inexpensive. But easily 'adjusted' with a crowbar ovm if the builder so desires. >2) Is the intention that the Engine Bus Alternate Feed be on during >normal flight ? If not, switching off the Master or a battery >contactor failure would remove power from the electronic ignition. Yes. What is the probability of these events? Battery contactors get fussy before they become a failed-open device. If it DID fail open in flight, you probably wouldn't know it . . . the alternator would continue to run things nicely. You might not know it was bad until you shut down and happened to notice that everything went dark on first motion of the master switch. If not noticed, you'd sure pick it up during next pre-flight. Inadvertent opening of the master switch in flight might be a concern . . .which is why I recommend ergonomic grouping of switches to separate DC power and engine controls from things that get routinely switched in flight. https://tinyurl.com/ybaw83gd But if one wished to fly with the alternate power path to any bus closed, it's no big deal. >3) During normal flight, the brown out booster is unpowered, but the >power from the Clearance Delivery bus back feeds into its output. Are >these devices typically okay with this ? The ones I've fiddled with so far don't mind. Backfeed currents observed are on the order of 3 milliamps . . . typical of resistance in the voltage setpoint divider. But it's certainly something to be verified. We could add a diode to the output path. Since the device is loaded for only seconds per flight cycle, the diode could probably be an axial lead, plastic device even if 'slightly' overloaded. I'll keep that in the ponder-pot. >4) Is there a risk that the brown out booster could generate a >significant overvoltage event ? Given their switching method to boost >voltage, I think not ? Yeah, an open resistor in the setpoint divider could cause it to 'regulate' at some higher voltage. These resistors are surface mounted and lightly stressed. Pretty bullet-proof I suspect. >5) The green color used for the engine bus circuitry is too light a >green, making it hard to read. I suggest a shade darker. Check the 'fix' . . . Thank's for the time/attention to this exercise! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Barter" <kesleyelectric(at)iowatelecom.net>
Subject: Aircraft Tug
Date: Apr 18, 2020
Attached is a photo of an aircraft tug a friend built from a walk behind snow blower with a failed engine. The transmission allows speed control going forward plus reverse. Works very well on his RV-6. Tom Barter From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com On Behalf Of mike(at)vision499.com Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 2:32 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug Hello all I'm looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of what specs I'm looking at. One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and I'm not sure if it will cope with that distance. A friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas Thanks Mike Virus-free. www.avast.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 18, 2020
From: Jeff Page <jpx(at)qenesis.com>
Subject: Re: New role for the E-Bus?
Hi Bob, Regarding the Engine Bus Alternate feed, I was envisioning it being on during normal flight operations, since pilots are trained to switch off the Master if they suspect an electrical fire. This would shut off the alternator too, resulting in the engine stopping unexpectedly. It is unlikely that the pilot would remember to turn on that switch before shutting off the Master, especially a second owner. Jeff Page Dream Aircraft Tundra #10 > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: New role for the E-Bus? > > At 12:46 AM 4/17/2020, you wrote: >> >> Hi Bob, >> >> I just had a good look at Z101. I like it. Five comments, certainly >> things you have thought of. >> >> 1) There is no overvoltage protection for the aux alternator. I >> assume that is because having an overvoltage event immediately after >> having a main alternator failure is too unlikely to justify it ? > > EXACTLY. In an ideal world, the AUX alernator > will never be operated in 'distress'. In a practical > world, it would be unusual to have it see more than > a hand-full of hours operation over the lifetime > of the airplane. > > It gets pre-flight tested. OV events are also rare. > Adding that protection just doesn't seem justified. > Hence simple, light, inexpensive. But easily 'adjusted' > with a crowbar ovm if the builder so desires. > > >> 2) Is the intention that the Engine Bus Alternate Feed be on during >> normal flight ? If not, switching off the Master or a battery >> contactor failure would remove power from the electronic ignition. > > Yes. What is the probability of these events? > Battery contactors get fussy before they become > a failed-open device. If it DID fail open in > flight, you probably wouldn't know it . . . the > alternator would continue to run things nicely. > You might not know it was bad until you shut > down and happened to notice that everything > went dark on first motion of the master switch. > If not noticed, you'd sure pick it up during > next pre-flight. > > Inadvertent opening of the master switch > in flight might be a concern . . .which > is why I recommend ergonomic grouping of > switches to separate DC power and engine > controls from things that get routinely > switched in flight. > > https://tinyurl.com/ybaw83gd > > > But if one wished to fly with the alternate > power path to any bus closed, it's no big > deal. > > >> 3) During normal flight, the brown out booster is unpowered, but the >> power from the Clearance Delivery bus back feeds into its output. Are >> these devices typically okay with this ? > > The ones I've fiddled with so far don't > mind. Backfeed currents observed are on > the order of 3 milliamps . . . typical > of resistance in the voltage setpoint > divider. But it's certainly something > to be verified. We could add a diode > to the output path. Since the device > is loaded for only seconds per flight > cycle, the diode could probably be an > axial lead, plastic device even if > 'slightly' overloaded. I'll keep that > in the ponder-pot. > > >> 4) Is there a risk that the brown out booster could generate a >> significant overvoltage event ? Given their switching method to boost >> voltage, I think not ? > > Yeah, an open resistor in the setpoint > divider could cause it to 'regulate' at > some higher voltage. These resistors > are surface mounted and lightly stressed. > Pretty bullet-proof I suspect. > > >> 5) The green color used for the engine bus circuitry is too light a >> green, making it hard to read. I suggest a shade darker. > > Check the 'fix' . . . > > Thank's for the time/attention to this exercise! > > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: OV B-lead Relay
From: "Dan Fritz" <Dfritzj(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 18, 2020
Hi all, I'm using an IR alternator as my primary source of electrons on my Velocity. I'd like to provide overvoltage protection to include a B-Lead disconnect relay. With a 34A continuous normal system load, will an automotive cube relay rated at 70A be satisfactory in lieu of the normally used "metal can" style battery contactor? Having read tons of posts on the relative merits of internal and external regulation and pedigree in millions of automotive hours of service, I'm really just interested in the actual b-lead disconnect relay part of the architecture as shown in Z-24. :) Thanks for your help! Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495891#495891 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Bear <beartrax(at)mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Aircraft Tug
Date: Apr 18, 2020
Tom, What DC motor did he use to replace the gasoline motor? Bill > On Apr 18, 2020, at 07:33, Tom Barter wrote: > > Attached is a photo of an aircraft tug a friend built from a walk behind snow blower with a failed engine. The transmission allows speed control going forward plus reverse. > > Works very well on his RV-6. > > Tom Barter > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > On Behalf Of mike(at)vision499.com > Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 2:32 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug > > > Hello all > > I=99m looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. > > I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of what specs I=99m looking at. > > One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and I=99m not sure if it will cope with that distance. A friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down. > > I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas > > Thanks > > Mike > > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Bear <beartrax(at)mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Aircraft Tug
Date: Apr 18, 2020
Tom, What DC motor did he use to replace the gasoline motor? Bill > On Apr 18, 2020, at 07:33, Tom Barter wrote: > > Attached is a photo of an aircraft tug a friend built from a walk behind snow blower with a failed engine. The transmission allows speed control going forward plus reverse. > > Works very well on his RV-6. > > Tom Barter > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > On Behalf Of mike(at)vision499.com > Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 2:32 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug > > > Hello all > > I=99m looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. > > I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of what specs I=99m looking at. > > One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and I=99m not sure if it will cope with that distance. A friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down. > > I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas > > Thanks > > Mike > > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Bear <beartrax(at)mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Aircraft Tug
Date: Apr 18, 2020
Tom, What DC motor did he use to replace the gasoline motor? Bill > On Apr 18, 2020, at 07:33, Tom Barter wrote: > > Attached is a photo of an aircraft tug a friend built from a walk behind snow blower with a failed engine. The transmission allows speed control going forward plus reverse. > > Works very well on his RV-6. > > Tom Barter > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > On Behalf Of mike(at)vision499.com > Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 2:32 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug > > > Hello all > > I=99m looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. > > I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of what specs I=99m looking at. > > One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and I=99m not sure if it will cope with that distance. A friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down. > > I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas > > Thanks > > Mike > > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Bear <beartrax(at)mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Aircraft Tug
Date: Apr 18, 2020
Tom, What DC motor did he use to replace the gasoline motor? Bill > On Apr 18, 2020, at 07:33, Tom Barter wrote: > > Attached is a photo of an aircraft tug a friend built from a walk behind snow blower with a failed engine. The transmission allows speed control going forward plus reverse. > > Works very well on his RV-6. > > Tom Barter > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > On Behalf Of mike(at)vision499.com > Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 2:32 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug > > > Hello all > > I=99m looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. > > I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of what specs I=99m looking at. > > One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and I=99m not sure if it will cope with that distance. A friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down. > > I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas > > Thanks > > Mike > > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Bear <beartrax(at)mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Aircraft Tug
Date: Apr 18, 2020
Tom, What DC motor did he use to replace the gasoline motor? Bill > On Apr 18, 2020, at 07:33, Tom Barter wrote: > > Attached is a photo of an aircraft tug a friend built from a walk behind snow blower with a failed engine. The transmission allows speed control going forward plus reverse. > > Works very well on his RV-6. > > Tom Barter > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > On Behalf Of mike(at)vision499.com > Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 2:32 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug > > > Hello all > > I=99m looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. > > I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of what specs I=99m looking at. > > One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and I=99m not sure if it will cope with that distance. A friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down. > > I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas > > Thanks > > Mike > > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Bear <beartrax(at)mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Aircraft Tug
Date: Apr 18, 2020
Tom, What DC motor did he use to replace the gasoline motor? Bill > On Apr 18, 2020, at 07:33, Tom Barter wrote: > > Attached is a photo of an aircraft tug a friend built from a walk behind snow blower with a failed engine. The transmission allows speed control going forward plus reverse. > > Works very well on his RV-6. > > Tom Barter > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > On Behalf Of mike(at)vision499.com > Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 2:32 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug > > > Hello all > > I=99m looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. > > I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of what specs I=99m looking at. > > One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and I=99m not sure if it will cope with that distance. A friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down. > > I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas > > Thanks > > Mike > > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Bear <beartrax(at)mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Aircraft Tug
Date: Apr 18, 2020
Tom, What DC motor did he use to replace the gasoline motor? Bill > On Apr 18, 2020, at 07:33, Tom Barter wrote: > > Attached is a photo of an aircraft tug a friend built from a walk behind snow blower with a failed engine. The transmission allows speed control going forward plus reverse. > > Works very well on his RV-6. > > Tom Barter > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > On Behalf Of mike(at)vision499.com > Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 2:32 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug > > > Hello all > > I=99m looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. > > I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of what specs I=99m looking at. > > One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and I=99m not sure if it will cope with that distance. A friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down. > > I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas > > Thanks > > Mike > > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Tom Barter" <kesleyelectric(at)iowatelecom.net>
Subject: Aircraft Tug
Date: Apr 18, 2020
Bill, The motor is =C2=BD hp 12 VDC. This particular motor was manufactured by L eeson, Cat. No. 108074.00. Baldor and Marathon offer similar motors. This tug is used on a grass strip on a farm, and the entrance to the shed w here the plane is kept is gravel, and slightly uphill. The tug has never h ad a lack of power or traction. Tom Barter From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-list -server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Bill Bear Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2020 2:10 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug Tom, What DC motor did he use to replace the gasoline motor? Bill On Apr 18, 2020, at 07:33, Tom Barter > wrote: Attached is a photo of an aircraft tug a friend built from a walk behind sn ow blower with a failed engine. The transmission allows speed control goin g forward plus reverse. Works very well on his RV-6. Tom Barter From: <mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> owner-aeroelec tric-list-server(at)matronics.com < owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of mike(at)vision499.com Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 2:32 PM om Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug Hello all I=99m looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of wha t specs I=99m looking at. One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for contin uous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and I =99m not sure if it will cope with that distance. A friend has also suggest ed converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure i f that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas Thanks Mike Virus-free. www.avast.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Bear <beartrax(at)mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Aircraft Tug
Date: Apr 18, 2020
Tom, What DC motor did he use to replace the gasoline motor? Bill > On Apr 18, 2020, at 07:33, Tom Barter wrote: > > Attached is a photo of an aircraft tug a friend built from a walk behind snow blower with a failed engine. The transmission allows speed control going forward plus reverse. > > Works very well on his RV-6. > > Tom Barter > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > On Behalf Of mike(at)vision499.com > Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 2:32 PM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug > > > Hello all > > I=99m looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. > > I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of what specs I=99m looking at. > > One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and I=99m not sure if it will cope with that distance. A friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down. > > I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas > > Thanks > > Mike > > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aircraft Tug
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 18, 2020
I can't find it now, but several years ago someone up in the snow belt posted pics of slightly modifying a small stock snow blower. Basically just unbolted the blower assy & bolted on an adapter to grab the wheel. He said it was simple to convert back to blower function for use in winter when he wasn't flying. IIRC, he bought it from his local big box store for a couple hundred dollars. On 4/18/2020 5:52 PM, Tom Barter wrote: > > Bill, > > The motor is hp 12 VDC. This particular motor was manufactured by > Leeson, Cat. No. 108074.00. Baldor and Marathon offer similar motors. > > This tug is used on a grass strip on a farm, and the entrance to the > shed where the plane is kept is gravel, and slightly uphill. The tug > has never had a lack of power or traction. > > Tom Barter > > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > *On Behalf Of *Bill Bear > *Sent:* Saturday, April 18, 2020 2:10 PM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug > > Tom, > > What DC motor did he use to replace the gasoline motor? > > Bill > > > On Apr 18, 2020, at 07:33, Tom Barter > > wrote: > > Attached is a photo of an aircraft tug a friend built from a walk > behind snow blower with a failed engine. The transmission allows > speed control going forward plus reverse. > > Works very well on his RV-6. > > Tom Barter > > *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > >*On Behalf > Of*mike(at)vision499.com > *Sent:*Saturday, April 11, 2020 2:32 PM > *To:*aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > > *Subject:*AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug > > Hello all > > Im looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not > a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about > 1800 lbs. > > I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are > a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so > am not sure of what specs Im looking at. > > One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated > for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is > 100 yds and Im not sure if it will cope with that distance. A > friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, > not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed > controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful > enough but it will be geared right down. > > I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas > > Thanks > > Mike > > > > > > Virus-free.www.avast.com > > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 19, 2020
From: ktup122(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Aircraft Tug
ktup122(at)aol.com -----Original Message----- From: Tom Barter <kesleyelectric(at)iowatelecom.net> Sent: Sat, Apr 18, 2020 02:20 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug Attached is a photo of an aircraft tug a friend built from a walk behind snow blower with a failed engine. The transmission allows speed control going forward plus reverse. Works very well on his RV-6. Tom BarterFrom: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of mike(at)vision499.comSent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 2:32 PMTo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.comSubject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug Hello all Im looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of what specs Im looking at. One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and Im not sure if it will cope with that distance. A friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas Thanks Mike Virus-free. www.avast.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 19, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
>I'm using an IR alternator as my primary source of electrons on my >Velocity. I'd like to provide overvoltage protection to include >a B-Lead disconnect relay. With a 34A continuous normal system >load, will an automotive cube relay rated at 70A be satisfactory >in lieu of the normally used "metal can" style battery contactor? Figure Z24 has been a burr under my intellectual saddle for over 20 years. It was a rather crude band-aid for adding ov protection to an internally regulated alternator where we, as system integrators, had no absolute control over field excitation voltage of the alternator. This produces failure modes initiating an uncontrollable alternator runaway. B&C's offerings to the OBAM aviation market exploited the fine craftsmanship of some automotive alternators by modifying them to accept field excitation from an external controller. Plane-Power took a slightly different approach . . . their first offerings retained the built in regulator but included modifications to (1) bring field excitation lead out of the alternator and (2) add crowbar ov protection to that field power feeder. You can see the crowbar ovm module piggy-backed onto a P-P alternator in the attached photo. The common theme for these offerings is MODIFICATION of an off-the-shelf alternator to effect smooth integration of the alternator into legacy aircraft system architectures. Many moons ago, we had some in-depth discussions about 'reliability' of stock automotive products. Admittedly, modern alternators do demonstrate exceptionally long service lives. If one is content to hang their hat on perceived reliability, then putting a stock automotive alternator on YOUR project meets design goals. As a system integrator with a few decades of experience designing to FMEA protocols, I couldn't recommend running the stock alternator 'bare footed'. So how to gracefully unhook the stock automotive alternator in a runaway condition from the ship's electrical system? Breaking the b-lead is the only option. But instead nailing the tiger's tail to the ground, we're working on the other end of this flame-throwing beast. The physical realities for this condition are: The alternator's field excitation is derived directly from the b-lead. So once the b-lead disconnect's from the system in general and the battery in particular, b-lead voltage rises exponentially. That rise is exacerbated by the fact that in milliseconds after onset of the ov condition, the alternator will be in full current limited output with the battery grunting the excess energy. When the b-lead is broken, the effect is like a race horse shot out of the gate on springs. Voltage goes up, field excitation goes up, voltage takes off for the moon. While breaking this pathway will isolate the alternator from the ship's systems, it cannot isolate the alternator from itself. The voltage will rise very rapidly to perhaps hundreds of volts. This puts alternator rectifiers and field windings at risk for failure. It is almost a certainty that the failed alternator will not enjoy a gentle outcome for the ov event. Selection of the disconnect relay is a bit more problematic than routine control tasks in the rest of the system. Our relay must survive a break of this rapidly rising, robust current source. Spectacular arcing will most certainly establish in the gap of spreading contacts. The relay of choice should have thermally massive contacts . . . and preferably be of the double make-break variety. Further, it the fire doesn't go out, it's a pretty good idea to pick an enclosure likely to contain the effects. The other attached figure speaks to features in the legacy 'whisky barrel' contactors. There are two contacts in series for 2x the spreading velocity of a 'relay'. The contacts are thermally massive to help conduct heat out of the arc as the contacts spread. The enclosure is likely to contain any electrical conflagration that fails to extinguish. The short answer to your question is: That contactor was selected for reasons beyond the device's ratings. Substitutions are not recommended. The elegant answer suggests you modify your alternator to ground one brush and bring the other one out to a generic 'ford' regulator as depicted in Z101. It's not a difficult mod. Best yet, it reduces energy release in an ov event to a tiny fraction of that produced by a b-lead disconnect. No arcs, no flame, just a little 'click' as the field breaker opens. No hardware in the alternator b-lead. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Bear <beartrax(at)mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Aircraft Tug
Date: Apr 19, 2020
Thanks, Tom. Gotta add this one to my to do list. Bill Bear > On Apr 19, 2020, at 05:09, ktup122(at)aol.com wrote: > > > > > ktup122(at)aol.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Barter <kesleyelectric(at)iowatelecom.net> > To: aeroelectric-list > Sent: Sat, Apr 18, 2020 02:20 PM > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug > > > Attached is a photo of an aircraft tug a friend built from a walk behind snow blower with a failed engine. The transmission allows speed control going forward plus reverse. Works very well on his RV-6. Tom BarterFrom: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com On Behalf Of mike(at)vision499.comSent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 2:32 PMTo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.comSubject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug Hello all Im looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of what specs Im looking at. One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and Im not sure if it will cope with that distance. A! > friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas Thanks Mike Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Bear <beartrax(at)mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Aircraft Tug
Date: Apr 19, 2020
Thanks, Tom. Gotta add this one to my to do list. Bill Bear > On Apr 19, 2020, at 05:09, ktup122(at)aol.com wrote: > > > > > ktup122(at)aol.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Barter <kesleyelectric(at)iowatelecom.net> > To: aeroelectric-list > Sent: Sat, Apr 18, 2020 02:20 PM > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug > > > Attached is a photo of an aircraft tug a friend built from a walk behind snow blower with a failed engine. The transmission allows speed control going forward plus reverse. Works very well on his RV-6. Tom BarterFrom: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com On Behalf Of mike(at)vision499.comSent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 2:32 PMTo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.comSubject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug Hello all Im looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of what specs Im looking at. One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and Im not sure if it will cope with that distance. A! > friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas Thanks Mike Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
From: "Dan Fritz" <Dfritzj(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 19, 2020
Thanks for the explanation, Bob! Looks like it's the metal can or alternator surgery. I'll do a little research on my alternator and the best surgery option. Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495916#495916 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Bear <beartrax(at)mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Aircraft Tug
Date: Apr 19, 2020
Thanks, Tom. Gotta add this one to my to do list. Bill Bear > On Apr 19, 2020, at 05:09, ktup122(at)aol.com wrote: > > > > > ktup122(at)aol.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Barter <kesleyelectric(at)iowatelecom.net> > To: aeroelectric-list > Sent: Sat, Apr 18, 2020 02:20 PM > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug > > > Attached is a photo of an aircraft tug a friend built from a walk behind snow blower with a failed engine. The transmission allows speed control going forward plus reverse. Works very well on his RV-6. Tom BarterFrom: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com On Behalf Of mike(at)vision499.comSent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 2:32 PMTo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.comSubject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug Hello all Im looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of what specs Im looking at. One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and Im not sure if it will cope with that distance. A! > friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas Thanks Mike Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Bear <beartrax(at)mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Aircraft Tug
Date: Apr 19, 2020
Thanks, Tom. Gotta add this one to my to do list. Bill Bear > On Apr 19, 2020, at 05:09, ktup122(at)aol.com wrote: > > > > > ktup122(at)aol.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Barter <kesleyelectric(at)iowatelecom.net> > To: aeroelectric-list > Sent: Sat, Apr 18, 2020 02:20 PM > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug > > > Attached is a photo of an aircraft tug a friend built from a walk behind snow blower with a failed engine. The transmission allows speed control going forward plus reverse. Works very well on his RV-6. Tom BarterFrom: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com On Behalf Of mike(at)vision499.comSent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 2:32 PMTo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.comSubject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug Hello all Im looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of what specs Im looking at. One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and Im not sure if it will cope with that distance. A! > friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas Thanks Mike Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Bear <beartrax(at)mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Aircraft Tug
Date: Apr 19, 2020
Thanks, Tom. Gotta add this one to my to do list. Bill Bear > On Apr 19, 2020, at 05:09, ktup122(at)aol.com wrote: > > > > > ktup122(at)aol.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Barter <kesleyelectric(at)iowatelecom.net> > To: aeroelectric-list > Sent: Sat, Apr 18, 2020 02:20 PM > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug > > > Attached is a photo of an aircraft tug a friend built from a walk behind snow blower with a failed engine. The transmission allows speed control going forward plus reverse. Works very well on his RV-6. Tom BarterFrom: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com On Behalf Of mike(at)vision499.comSent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 2:32 PMTo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.comSubject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug Hello all Im looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of what specs Im looking at. One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and Im not sure if it will cope with that distance. A! > friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas Thanks Mike Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Bear <beartrax(at)mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Aircraft Tug
Date: Apr 19, 2020
Thanks, Tom. Gotta add this one to my to do list. Bill Bear > On Apr 19, 2020, at 05:09, ktup122(at)aol.com wrote: > > > > > ktup122(at)aol.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Barter <kesleyelectric(at)iowatelecom.net> > To: aeroelectric-list > Sent: Sat, Apr 18, 2020 02:20 PM > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug > > > Attached is a photo of an aircraft tug a friend built from a walk behind snow blower with a failed engine. The transmission allows speed control going forward plus reverse. Works very well on his RV-6. Tom BarterFrom: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com On Behalf Of mike(at)vision499.comSent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 2:32 PMTo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.comSubject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug Hello all Im looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of what specs Im looking at. One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and Im not sure if it will cope with that distance. A! > friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas Thanks Mike Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Bear <beartrax(at)mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Aircraft Tug
Date: Apr 19, 2020
Thanks, Tom. Gotta add this one to my to do list. Bill Bear > On Apr 19, 2020, at 05:09, ktup122(at)aol.com wrote: > > > > > ktup122(at)aol.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Barter <kesleyelectric(at)iowatelecom.net> > To: aeroelectric-list > Sent: Sat, Apr 18, 2020 02:20 PM > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug > > > Attached is a photo of an aircraft tug a friend built from a walk behind snow blower with a failed engine. The transmission allows speed control going forward plus reverse. Works very well on his RV-6. Tom BarterFrom: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com On Behalf Of mike(at)vision499.comSent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 2:32 PMTo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.comSubject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug Hello all Im looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of what specs Im looking at. One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and Im not sure if it will cope with that distance. A! > friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas Thanks Mike Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bill Bear <beartrax(at)mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Aircraft Tug
Date: Apr 19, 2020
Thanks, Tom. Gotta add this one to my to do list. Bill Bear > On Apr 19, 2020, at 05:09, ktup122(at)aol.com wrote: > > > > > ktup122(at)aol.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Barter <kesleyelectric(at)iowatelecom.net> > To: aeroelectric-list > Sent: Sat, Apr 18, 2020 02:20 PM > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug > > > Attached is a photo of an aircraft tug a friend built from a walk behind snow blower with a failed engine. The transmission allows speed control going forward plus reverse. Works very well on his RV-6. Tom BarterFrom: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com On Behalf Of mike(at)vision499.comSent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 2:32 PMTo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.comSubject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Tug Hello all Im looking at building a 12v battery operated aircraft tug, not a ride on just a walk with. My max aircraft weight will be about 1800 lbs. I am looking for advise on what size motor I will need. There are a few 12v motors for sale on ebay but they are not rated in hp so am not sure of what specs Im looking at. One thought was to use a car starter motor but that is not rated for continuous service but the farthest I will go with the tug is 100 yds and Im not sure if it will cope with that distance. A! > friend has also suggested converting an alternator into a motor, not sure what that entails. Ebay has scooter motors with a speed controller that seems ideal but not sure if that will be powerful enough but it will be geared right down. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas Thanks Mike Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 20, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
At 11:17 PM 4/19/2020, you wrote: > >Thanks for the explanation, Bob! Looks like it's the metal can or >alternator surgery. I'll do a little research on my alternator and >the best surgery option. > >Dan if you run across anything useful on the 'net, be sure to let us know about it. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 20, 2020
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
there is a thread in the past 2 yrs. about ov disconnecting the b lead. bob posted a link to a 200 amp relay that i did use to wire an ov disconnect into my b lead. is it being said now that that is a bad idea? i always expected i would fry the alternator, i only need the disconnect once. bob noffs On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 3:53 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > I'm using an IR alternator as my primary source of electrons on my > Velocity. I'd like to provide overvoltage protection to include > a B-Lead disconnect relay. With a 34A continuous normal system > load, will an automotive cube relay rated at 70A be satisfactory > in lieu of the normally used "metal can" style battery contactor? > > > Figure Z24 has been a burr under my intellectual saddle > for over 20 years. It was a rather crude band-aid for > adding ov protection to an internally regulated alternator > where we, as system integrators, had no absolute control > over field excitation voltage of the alternator. This > produces failure modes initiating an uncontrollable > alternator runaway. > > B&C's offerings to the OBAM aviation market exploited > the fine craftsmanship of some automotive alternators > by modifying them to accept field excitation from > an external controller. Plane-Power took a slightly > different approach . . . their first offerings retained > the built in regulator but included modifications to > (1) bring field excitation lead out of the alternator > and (2) add crowbar ov protection to that field power > feeder. You can see the crowbar ovm module piggy-backed > onto a P-P alternator in the attached photo. > > The common theme for these offerings is MODIFICATION > of an off-the-shelf alternator to effect smooth integration > of the alternator into legacy aircraft system architectures. > Many moons ago, we had some in-depth discussions about > 'reliability' of stock automotive products. Admittedly, > modern alternators do demonstrate exceptionally long > service lives. If one is content to hang their hat > on perceived reliability, then putting a stock > automotive alternator on YOUR project meets design > goals. > > As a system integrator with a few decades of > experience designing to FMEA protocols, I couldn't > recommend running the stock alternator 'bare footed'. > So how to gracefully unhook the stock automotive > alternator in a runaway condition from the ship's > electrical system? > > Breaking the b-lead is the only option. But instead > nailing the tiger's tail to the ground, we're working > on the other end of this flame-throwing beast. > > The physical realities for this condition are: > > The alternator's field excitation is derived > directly from the b-lead. > > So once the b-lead disconnect's from the system > in general and the battery in particular, b-lead > voltage rises exponentially. > > That rise is exacerbated by the fact that in > milliseconds after onset of the ov condition, > the alternator will be in full current limited > output with the battery grunting the excess > energy. > > When the b-lead is broken, the effect is > like a race horse shot out of the gate on > springs. Voltage goes up, field excitation > goes up, voltage takes off for the moon. > > While breaking this pathway will isolate > the alternator from the ship's systems, it > cannot isolate the alternator from itself. > The voltage will rise very rapidly to perhaps > hundreds of volts. This puts alternator > rectifiers and field windings at risk for > failure. It is almost a certainty that > the failed alternator will not enjoy > a gentle outcome for the ov event. > > Selection of the disconnect relay is a > bit more problematic than routine > control tasks in the rest of the system. > Our relay must survive a break of this > rapidly rising, robust current source. > > Spectacular arcing will most certainly > establish in the gap of spreading contacts. > The relay of choice should have thermally > massive contacts . . . and preferably > be of the double make-break variety. > Further, it the fire doesn't go out, > it's a pretty good idea to pick an > enclosure likely to contain the effects. > > The other attached figure speaks to features > in the legacy 'whisky barrel' contactors. > There are two contacts in series for > 2x the spreading velocity of a 'relay'. > The contacts are thermally massive > to help conduct heat out of the arc as > the contacts spread. The enclosure is > likely to contain any electrical conflagration > that fails to extinguish. > > The short answer to your question is: That > contactor was selected for reasons beyond > the device's ratings. Substitutions are > not recommended. > > The elegant answer suggests you modify > your alternator to ground one brush and > bring the other one out to a generic > 'ford' regulator as depicted in Z101. > > It's not a difficult mod. Best yet, it > reduces energy release in an ov event > to a tiny fraction of that produced by > a b-lead disconnect. No arcs, no flame, > just a little 'click' as the field > breaker opens. No hardware in the alternator > b-lead. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 20, 2020
From: Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
I am currently bench testing a Motorcraft alternator from a 84 Bronco.=C2 - It's a re-build from the local NAPA auto parts store.=C2- About $60. =C2- It's rated at 60A and weighs about 10 pounds. I selected it because: 1. It's setup for/requires an external regulator2. It is a 'B' circuit alte rnator3. It was used in all kinds of Fords in the 80s and therefore should be easy to get replacement when "on the road"4. It comes with a single-groo ve pulley. (more modern alternators have pulleys for serpentine belts)5. It 's inexpensive I'm curious what other people are using... -Jeff ckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: At 11:17 PM 4/19/2020, you wrote: --> AeroElectric-List messageposted by: "Dan Fritz" Thanks for the explanation, Bob!=C2- Looks like it's the metal can oralte rnator surgery.=C2- I'll do a little research on my alternator andthe bes t surgery option. Dan =C2- if you run across anything useful on the 'net, =C2- be sure to let us know about it. =C2- Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Apr 20, 2020
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
Jeff, I have two alternators, a B&C Aero BC460-H (60 amps, 7.1 pounds) and a backup alternator the BC410-H (20-40 amps, 5.75 pounds) -- Art Z. On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 12:29 PM Jeff Luckey wrote: > I am currently bench testing a Motorcraft alternator from a 84 Bronco. > It's a re-build from the local NAPA auto parts store. About $60. It's > rated at 60A and weighs about 10 pounds. > > I selected it because: > > 1. It's setup for/requires an external regulator > 2. It is a 'B' circuit alternator > 3. It was used in all kinds of Fords in the 80s and therefore should be > easy to get replacement when "on the road" > 4. It comes with a single-groove pulley. (more modern alternators have > pulleys for serpentine belts) > 5. It's inexpensive > > I'm curious what other people are using... > > -Jeff > > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > > At 11:17 PM 4/19/2020, you wrote: > > > Thanks for the explanation, Bob! Looks like it's the metal can or > alternator surgery. I'll do a little research on my alternator and the > best surgery option. > > Dan > > > if you run across anything useful on the 'net, > be sure to let us know about it. > > > Bob . . . > -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *Sooner meet a bereaved she-bear than a fool with his nonsense. *Proverbs 17:12 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "skywagon185guy ." <skywagon185(at)GMAIL.COM>
Date: Apr 20, 2020
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
Jeff, Ford Alternator... Good choice, besides your list of benefits, add these * can use Ford regulators, even the heavy duty ones are in the $20+ range * If you ever have to have the alt. serviced, checked, etc., any electrical shop will do it and you won't have to fib that it is out of an airplane. (mention airplane and the shop may hand it back to you...). But, clearly a Ford product that they have serviced 100's of ; no questions. On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 10:57 AM Art Zemon wrote: > Jeff, > > I have two alternators, a B&C Aero BC460-H (60 amps, 7.1 pounds) and a > backup alternator the BC410-H (20-40 amps, 5.75 pounds) > > -- Art Z. > > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 12:29 PM Jeff Luckey wrote: > >> I am currently bench testing a Motorcraft alternator from a 84 Bronco. >> It's a re-build from the local NAPA auto parts store. About $60. It's >> rated at 60A and weighs about 10 pounds. >> >> I selected it because: >> >> 1. It's setup for/requires an external regulator >> 2. It is a 'B' circuit alternator >> 3. It was used in all kinds of Fords in the 80s and therefore should be >> easy to get replacement when "on the road" >> 4. It comes with a single-groove pulley. (more modern alternators have >> pulleys for serpentine belts) >> 5. It's inexpensive >> >> I'm curious what other people are using... >> >> -Jeff >> >> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: >> >> >> At 11:17 PM 4/19/2020, you wrote: >> >> >> Thanks for the explanation, Bob! Looks like it's the metal can or >> alternator surgery. I'll do a little research on my alternator and the >> best surgery option. >> >> Dan >> >> >> >> if you run across anything useful on the 'net, >> be sure to let us know about it. >> >> >> Bob . . . >> > > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > *Sooner meet a bereaved she-bear than a fool with his nonsense. *Proverbs > 17:12 > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 20, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
At 06:44 AM 4/20/2020, you wrote: >there is a thread in the past 2 yrs. about ov >disconnecting the b lead. bob posted a link to a >200 amp relay that i did use to wire an ov >disconnect into my b lead. is it being said now >that that is a bad idea? i always expected i >would fry the alternator, i only need the disconnect once. >=C2 bob noffs Refresh my memory . . . what kind of relay made it into your system? Can you give me a date on the thread? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
From: "Dan Fritz" <Dfritzj(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 20, 2020
Hi Bob, I've been doing some searching and found a couple of tutorials on modifying an alternator to external regulation and am considering whether to attempt the mod. While searching, I also found an article of yours from Feb 2004 (Load Dump Damage to Alternators with Built-in Regulators). Were you ever able to get test results from your proposed Z-24 with a TVS diode installed? Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495933#495933 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 21, 2020
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
hi bob, you posted on 8/23/18 on the subject of ''crowbars''. it looks like the link is a dead end now but maybe i have the receipt of a hx on ebay in my account. bob noffs On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 1:34 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 06:44 AM 4/20/2020, you wrote: > > there is a thread in the past 2 yrs. about ov disconnecting the b lead. > bob posted a link to a 200 amp relay that i did use to wire an ov > disconnect into my b lead. is it being said now that that is a bad idea? i > always expected i would fry the alternator, i only need the disconnect on ce. > =C3=82 bob noffs > > > Refresh my memory . . . what kind of relay > made it into your system? Can you give > me a date on the thread? > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 21, 2020
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
bob, all i could find of it was a pic. it i black plastic. at the time of the post connector types was in question. yp180, yp-100-12 and 12v-200a are printed on the unit. it is for auto, continuous duty. it has 3/16 or 1/4'' lugs and is rated 200 amps. bob noffs On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 7:43 AM bob noffs wrote: > hi bob, > you posted on 8/23/18 on the subject of ''crowbars''. it looks like the > link is a dead end now but maybe i have the receipt of a hx on ebay in my > account. > bob noffs > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 1:34 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > >> At 06:44 AM 4/20/2020, you wrote: >> >> there is a thread in the past 2 yrs. about ov disconnecting the b lead. >> bob posted a link to a 200 amp relay that i did use to wire an ov >> disconnect into my b lead. is it being said now that that is a bad idea? i >> always expected i would fry the alternator, i only need the disconnect o nce. >> =C3=82 bob noffs >> >> >> Refresh my memory . . . what kind of relay >> made it into your system? Can you give >> me a date on the thread? >> >> >> Bob . . . >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 21, 2020
bobnoffs wrote: > ... yp180, yp-100-12 and 12v-200a are printed on the unit... https://www.ebay.com/c/20012698760 -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360 Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F. john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495939#495939 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/12v24v_dc200a_high_power_car_relay_112.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 21, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
At 09:18 AM 4/21/2020, you wrote: > >bobnoffs wrote: > > ... yp180, yp-100-12 and 12v-200a are printed on the unit... > > >https://www.ebay.com/c/20012698760 > Yeah, this is the one I did a tear-down on but for the life of me, I can't find the pictures in the archive. I'm skeptical of the 200A rating and to be sure, the single break contact gap is unsuitable for a b-lead disconnect. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 21, 2020
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
bob, do you have a link or part # for something that would work for b lead disconnect? how unsuitable is this 200 amp relay? i mean, are the number of cycles that it will function be limited or will it be shot after its first cycle? if i use it once i am going to have an alternator to replace, why not the relay too? it is not likely this thing is ever likely to see even one use. your take on this would be appreciated. bob noffs On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 11:09 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 09:18 AM 4/21/2020, you wrote: > > john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> > bobnoffs wrote: > > ... yp180, yp-100-12 and 12v-200a are printed on the unit... > > > https://www.ebay.com/c/20012698760 > > > Yeah, this is the one I did a tear-down on > but for the life of me, I can't find the > pictures in the archive. I'm skeptical of > the 200A rating and to be sure, the single > break contact gap is unsuitable for a > b-lead disconnect. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 21, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
At 11:39 PM 4/20/2020, you wrote: > >Hi Bob, I've been doing some searching and found >a couple of tutorials on modifying an alternator >to external regulation and am considering >whether to attempt the mod. While searching, I >also found an article of yours from Feb 2004 >(=9CLoad Dump=9D Damage to Alternators with >Built-in Regulators). Were you ever able to get >test results from your proposed Z-24 with a TVS diode installed? > >Dan That's been awhile back . . . I don't recall that I ever got to explore that option on the bench. There's a LOT of energy sourcing the output of a runaway alternator. TVS are transient suppressors: High current, rapidly rising voltage but of limited duration hence low energy. The runaway alternator is suited to being jury-rigged into a arc welder! I do recall a visit to Motorcar Parts of America facilities in Tijuana Mexico in 2004 where I witnessed the extreme load-dump being impressed on an alternator under test. The narrative of that trip can be found on page 3-6 of this document https://tinyurl.com/y7qzlfw6 We cannot know the source for alternators popular with the Van's crowd back then but common sense suggests that immunity from load-dump effects are pretty much the gold standard. It's not hard to do . . . so why not do it? Your competition does. I have a design proposal on the hard drive that takes a little different approach to b-lead management of an ov condition. This approach drive the bus through a diode capable of carrying full alternator output. Instead of attempting to BREAK the b-lead, I simply short it to ground with a fat FET. In a mater of microseconds, b-lead voltage is reduced to millivolts. Since the field is sourced from the b-lead, the runaway alternator is simultaneously deprived of field excitation. The whole thing simply relaxes. The cited diode prevents reflection of the crowbar on the rest of the airplane. Intuitively, this has to work. Best yet, it would prevent the alternator's suicide attempt. I didn't push this idea forward . . . it seemed like a lot of monkey-motion to avoid the simple mod to run the alternator with an external regulator. If anyone would like to explore the b-lead, crowbar method for bringing an internally regulated alternator to heel, I'll publish the sketches. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Bose Headset Replacement Plug
Date: Apr 21, 2020
Greetings Ya'All, I am still trying to find out what color wire connects to the phone jack lugs of the Bose A20 "GA wire harness". >From the recommendations you gave from my last post on this subject I tried to do a continuity check of the wires to the phone plug so as to determine what color wires went to the jack lugs however the wires were broken inside. I then tried to dig out the plastic molded on cable end and trace the wire colors to the plug however as the molded on plastic was removed it pulled off the colored insulation from the wires so now I.and my headset.are dead in the water because I do not know what wire is supposed to go where. So I need to know what color wires (red/black/white/blue/green) are supposed to be soldered on to the replacement Neutrik NP3X plug's three lugs (tip/center/ring) and If you can help I would be greatly appreciative since Bose wants 300 bucks for a replacement cable. THANKS!!!! Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 21, 2020
On 4/21/2020 11:52 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 11:39 PM 4/20/2020, you wrote: >> >> Hi Bob, I've been doing some searching and found a couple of >> tutorials on modifying an alternator to external regulation and am >> considering whether to attempt the mod. While searching, I also >> found an article of yours from Feb 2004 (Load Dump Damage to >> Alternators with Built-in Regulators). Were you ever able to get >> test results from your proposed Z-24 with a TVS diode installed? >> >> Dan > > That's been awhile back . . . I don't recall > that I ever got to explore that option on the > bench. There's a LOT of energy sourcing the > output of a runaway alternator. TVS are > transient suppressors: High current, rapidly > rising voltage but of limited duration hence > low energy. > > The runaway alternator is suited to being > jury-rigged into a arc welder! > > > I do recall a visit to Motorcar Parts of > America facilities in Tijuana Mexico in 2004 > where I witnessed the extreme load-dump being > impressed on an alternator under test. > > The narrative of that trip can be found > on page 3-6 of this document > > https://tinyurl.com/y7qzlfw6 > > We cannot know the source for alternators > popular with the Van's crowd back then > but common sense suggests that immunity > from load-dump effects are pretty much > the gold standard. It's not hard to do . . . > so why not do it? Your competition does. > > I have a design proposal on the hard drive > that takes a little different approach > to b-lead management of an ov condition. > > This approach drive the bus through a > diode capable of carrying full alternator > output. Instead of attempting to BREAK > the b-lead, I simply short it to ground > with a fat FET. In a mater of microseconds, > b-lead voltage is reduced to millivolts. > Since the field is sourced from the b-lead, > the runaway alternator is simultaneously > deprived of field excitation. The whole > thing simply relaxes. The cited diode > prevents reflection of the crowbar > on the rest of the airplane. > > Intuitively, this has to work. Best > yet, it would prevent the alternator's > suicide attempt. > > I didn't push this idea forward . . . it > seemed like a lot of monkey-motion to > avoid the simple mod to run the > alternator with an external regulator. > > If anyone would like to explore the b-lead, > crowbar method for bringing an internally > regulated alternator to heel, I'll publish > the sketches. > > > Bob . . . > My admittedly sometimes faulty memory of the whole 'load dump' situation two decades ago was that guys were flipping their alt switches/breakers (which controlled the B lead contactor) while the alt was under load, and killing the alt. IIRC, after multiple incidents like that, the OV module/contactor circuit became a lot harder to find in the AEC docs. My solution is the He Haw Solution: 'If it hurts when you do that, DON'T DO THAT!' Here's my take: If I operate the IR alternator just like it's operated in the car, I'll never have a load dump event. If I use an OV module that is relatively immune to 'false positives', along with a relatively robust B lead contactor, the only penalty I see is carrying a few ounces of extra weight for the contactor. The contactor will never operate unless the regulator has failed (in an OV mode), in which case the 'load dump' issue is already moot. This lets me use an off the shelf, *very inexpensive*, available at any auto supply, alternator. It won't be as reliable as a B&C, but based on anecdotal evidence from RV-x owners, a *lot* more reliable than a Plane Power. And I'll have about $500 left over to buy fuel. (Replacement alts, if ever needed, will be free.) If I do have to replace the alt while away from home, no mod to the alt is needed, and replacement can happen on the ramp with only a couple of wrenches. I have had several different 'lives' as an electronics tech, from home electronics to pro sound, to industrial gear. Even though I'd consider myself to be well above average in qualifications, I trust an 'as-built' alternator to be more reliable than one that I've modded. My opinion is that if any update is made, it would be to redesign the OV module to reduce the risk of 'false positive' nuisance trips, and retain the B lead relay. Perhaps do a little testing on whether a single contact automotive cube relay can reliably open the B lead, *once*, as Bob Noffs mentioned, and treat the relay as if it's a fusible link. Realistically, if the OV module fires at ~16V, how much energy is really there? How much delay will there be from hitting the voltage threshold to the contacts opening? If we used a 100A cube relay (which *should*, by definition, be able to actively control a 100A load), will it really be stressed by 60-70 amps at ~20V? Or will the voltage (and energy) be much higher by the time the contacts actually start to open? I realize that voltage will spike upward as the contacts separate, but will it be bad enough in a 'one shot' environment to weld the contacts? Charlie -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 21, 2020
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Bose Headset Replacement Plug
Red (positive) and black (ground) will almost certainly be power to the he adset electronics.=C2- White, blue and green are probably left, right and ground for audio.=C2- The correlation of those colors is anyone's guess, but they're easy to figure out. You may be able to determine audio ground by a continuity check with power ground (black).=C2- Left and right are easily determined by experimentati on with a 1.5V AA or AAA battery (do NOT use a 9V!).=C2- Put the headset on, then hold one wire on the "-" pole of the battery and tap another wire on the "+" pole.=C2- You'll hear a scratching noise in the ear that's fed by that wire. Eric m> wrote: I am still trying to find out what color wire connects to the ph one jack lugs of the Bose A20 =9CGA wire harness=9D ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 21, 2020
From: Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Bose Headset Replacement Plug
Right after posting that last suggestion, I opened the weekly email from K itplanes magazine and found this article about repairing the cable on Bose headsets! https://www.kitplanes.com/crimping-style/ Eric m> wrote: I am still trying to find out what color wire connects to the ph one jack lugs of the Bose A20 =9CGA wire harness=9D ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
From: "Dan Fritz" <Dfritzj(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 21, 2020
One of the things I've always wondered about with Z-24 was the impact of the B-lead contactor opening when the field switch is opened. This appears to negate any positive influence of having a progressive switch for the master contactor and field power. What do you all think of the adjustment propose in the attached to Z-24 to re-introduce the goodness of the progressive switch while keeping the full protection offered by Z-24. One could also consider putting a TVS across the B-lead between the B-lead contactor and the alternator in an attempt to save the regulator if a nuisance trip of the Overvoltage protection were to take place. thoughts? Dan P.S. did this "old school" with whiteout and a pencil, excuse the messiness... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495948#495948 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/modz24_364.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
From: Finn Lassen <finn.lassen(at)verizon.net>
Date: Apr 21, 2020
On 4/21/2020 12:52 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > This approach drive the bus through a > diode capable of carrying full alternator > output. Instead of attempting to BREAK > the b-lead, I simply short it to ground > with a fat FET. In a mater of microseconds, > b-lead voltage is reduced to millivolts. > Since the field is sourced from the b-lead, > the runaway alternator is simultaneously > deprived of field excitation. The whole > thing simply relaxes. Is it possible that some car alternators have built-in filtering (capacitor) in the internal regulator that would extend microseconds to milliseconds or more? Looking at the output windings as a coil, wouldn't shorting them result in a huge spike destroying the rectifier diodes or would all the energy stored in the coil be dissipated as heat? Shorting B+ to ground would put the rectifier diodes in the shorted path. Any chance that the rectifier diodes would be destroyed? Finn ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 21, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
> >Is it possible that some car alternators have built-in filtering >(capacitor) in the internal regulator that would extend microseconds >to milliseconds or more? > >Looking at the output windings as a coil, wouldn't shorting them >result in a huge spike destroying the rectifier diodes or would all >the energy stored in the coil be dissipated as heat? > >Shorting B+ to ground would put the rectifier diodes in the shorted >path. Any chance that the rectifier diodes would be destroyed? No, no and no. The alternator is simply modeled as a current limited source of power the magnitude of which can be controlled by adjustment to input RPM and field current. Whether you tax the alternator at nameplate ratings in a normal energy production mode -OR- throw a dead short across the b-lead . . . the current that will flow in the alternator's output hardware will be the same . . . at or slightly above nameplate rating of the alternator. Unlike a really fat capacitor or a battery, the b-lead fault current is limited by the alternator's magnetics. Even if the field were continuously excited a dead short on the b-lead would only produce a STEADY current flow at or above nameplate ratings. That condition WOULD continue to warm the diodes and stator windings as if the machine were producing useful power. Given that the field on an internally regulated alternator is SUPPLIED from the b-lead, hitting the b-lead with a short not only shunts a nominal current source to ground, it deprives the alternator of it's field excitation. The current that flows would be very short and things would settle down to what ever current is generated by residual field flux. The whole thing is brought gracefully to a low energy state. That's an interesting bench experiment I'm planning to conduct . . . I've attached a sketch of what the system would look like. The series diode would drop the alternator output by a volt or so . . . no big deal. Everything on the panel is lit up. This 'crowbar' needs to use a really low resistance FET (easy to get). If you used an SCR to effect the short, the SCR still drops about a volt in the on-state. 1 volt on an ND alternator at 10,000 rpm will generate a LOT of snort. Our short needs to take the b-lead down to millivolt levels and hold it there. But given the ease with which the alternator can be modified into a real 'aircraft' part, any notions of a Z24 update are not so interesting. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 21, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
>>My admittedly sometimes faulty memory of the whole 'load dump' >>situation two decades ago was that guys were flipping their alt >>switches/breakers (which controlled the B lead contactor) while the >>alt was under load, and killing the alt. IIRC, after multiple >>incidents like that, the OV module/contactor circuit became a lot >>harder to find in the AEC docs. Yeah, your memory is correct. The Z24 pot boiled over when I think only one individual experienced alternator failure after cycling it. We don't know how fast the engine was running or what the alternator loads were . . . you never get that quality of data from someone pointing a figure at you hollering, "you alternator killer!" I think Paul M was a well entrenched advisor to that faction of RV fans and he was rather antagonistic to anything 'crowbar'. >My solution is the He Haw Solution: 'If it hurts when you do that, >DON'T DO THAT!' Exactly. If the alternator is brought off and on line at engine idle (standard ops) then there is no risk. >Here's my take: If I operate the IR alternator just like it's >operated in the car, I'll never have a load dump event. If I use an >OV module that is relatively immune to 'false positives', along with >a relatively robust B lead contactor, the only penalty I see is >carrying a few ounces of extra weight for the contactor. The >contactor will never operate unless the regulator has failed (in an >OV mode), in which case the 'load dump' issue is already moot. That was the spirit and intent of the design but I failed to include a note precluding random operations at high rpm. In all fairness, any alternator should be able to respond safely to on/off commands under any speed and load conditions. >This lets me use an off the shelf, *very inexpensive*, available at >any auto supply, alternator. It won't be as reliable as a B&C, but >based on anecdotal evidence from RV-x owners, a *lot* more reliable >than a Plane Power. And I'll have about $500 left over to buy fuel. >(Replacement alts, if ever needed, will be free.) If I do have to >replace the alt while away from home, no mod to the alt is needed, >and replacement can happen on the ramp with only a couple of wrenches. Is PlanePower having issues? I think they were bought out by a company that shall remain nameless. Has their craftsmanship suffered? >I have had several different 'lives' as an electronics tech, from >home electronics to pro sound, to industrial gear. Even though I'd >consider myself to be well above average in qualifications, I trust >an 'as-built' alternator to be more reliable than one that I've modded. YEeaahh . . . with reservations. The recent Kitplanes article we've discussed here is a rather benign operation . . . with profound benefit. >My opinion is that if any update is made, it would be to redesign >the OV module to reduce the risk of 'false positive' nuisance trips, >and retain the B lead relay. Perhaps do a little testing on whether >a single contact automotive cube relay can reliably open the B lead, >*once*, as Bob Noffs mentioned, and treat the relay as if it's a fusible link. If we combined the crowbar feature with the 200A 'cube' relay, the ov sense could be a microcontroller that waits until the relay contacts are sensed to be open before triggering the FET. That would reduce abuse to the relay to insignificance for both an OV shutdown -AND- the normal on/off commands at ANY rpm. To be sure, MOST modern alternators including rebuilds should be able to stand off the load dump spike. > Realistically, if the OV module fires at ~16V, how much energy is > really there? How much delay will there be from hitting the voltage > threshold to the contacts opening? If we used a 100A cube relay > (which *should*, by definition, be able to actively control a 100A > load), will it really be stressed by 60-70 amps at ~20V? Or will > the voltage (and energy) be much higher by the time the contacts > actually start to open? I realize that voltage will spike upward > as the contacts separate, but will it be bad enough in a 'one shot' > environment to weld the contacts? Yeah, an ov trip condition is asserted when bus voltage rises above 16v for say 500 mS. By this time, the energy 'spring' in the failed alternator is really wound up pretty good. I've observed field voltages on the order of 1 to 2 volts for alternators carrying a normal running load at cruise rpm. So if you suddenly increase that voltage to 15v, the 'spring' starts winding rapidly while held at bay by the battery+system loads. This is the special condition that might be handled nicely with a fat-FET and relay. . . . I'd want to do some studies on the alternator test stand before running very far down that rabbit hole. But FOR SURE . . . a fat-FET and diode would be a piece of cake because there's no timing to worry about and the b-lead never rises very far given that it's loaded down by the ship's battery. Best yet, no concerns for keeping your contacts out of the fire. For an AUX alternator in the 20-30A class, the diode/fet crowbar need not be very beefy. Maybe not so attractive for MAIN alternators in the 60A+ class. Voltage drop across the diode becomes an energy management issue. There was a time that Cessna was using some fat diodes in the alternator b-leads to orchestrate an alternator failure sensor some guy at Cessna dreamed up . . . not me! Here are some excerpts from a kit I wrote to put a 100A alternator on a USAF U17. That diode dropped about 0.9V at 100A for a dissipation the order of 90W. Needless to say, the heatsink was impressive. I seem to recall we did a similar thing on the C337. Had to dig pretty deep into the archives for those images. Wrote that kit in 1968! A Schottky b-lead diode for a 30A alternator would be much more manageable. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 21, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
At 02:25 PM 4/21/2020, you wrote: > >One of the things I've always wondered about with Z-24 was the >impact of the B-lead contactor opening when the field switch >is opened. This appears to negate any positive influence of >having a progressive switch for the master contactor and field power. Not sure how . . . the progressive transfer is an emulation of the 'split rocker' that simply prevents alternator operations without a battery on line. Adding the relay-crowbar ov control system doesn't negate that design goal. >What do you all think of the adjustment propose in the attached to >Z-24 to re-introduce the goodness of the progressive switch while >keeping the full protection offered by Z-24. I'm not seeing the proposed advantage. Remember that the "F" terminal on an internally regulated alternator is simply a control lead that talks to the internal regulator. Once the regulator has failed, it matters not what voltage appears at the "F" terminal . . . the b-lead is straining to take off for the moon. >One could also consider putting a TVS across the B-lead between the B-lead >contactor and the alternator in an attempt to save the regulator >if a nuisance trip of the Overvoltage protection were to take place. Remember that TVS (transient voltage suppressor) is designed to take on fairly large currents for a very SHORT period of time. In Z24 the alternator cannot be shut down hence this is no longer a transient event but a uncontrolled runaway that will continue until the field windings burn in two. >P.S. did this "old school" with whiteout and a pencil, excuse the messiness... fine pencil work . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 21, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control
At 02:59 AM 4/21/2020, you wrote: >Hi Bob, > >Recently there has been a bit of talk re using an controlling >internally controlled alternators. It is very easy to modify them. > >In Kitplanes for Nov 2019 I had published an article on how how to >modify an alternator (Nippon Denso) with virtually no surgery; and >it can be easily restored to standard. Doing this totally eliminates >all the hassles with the internally regulated unit. Just use the B&C Regulator. > >Graeme Coates > >Melbourne, Australia I've contacted Marc Cook at Kitplanes who has graciously approved a reprint on AeroElectric.com. Interested readers can access this nicely illustrated article at: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Alternators/NiponDenso_Modification_Nov_2019_Kitplanes.pdf Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
From: "Dan Fritz" <Dfritzj(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 21, 2020
Bob, Thanks for the explanation on the B-lead contactor and progressive field switch. I like the direction you're going with the B-lead crowbar solution. Seems like it could make the OV event much less spectacular and potentially even save a few alternators from load dumps in nuisance trip situations. It also saves the effort to modify the alternator to eliminate the internal regulator and keeps the Autozone replacement alternator from taking up too much $time$. That said, you've piqued my interest, I'll have to dig into my alternator to see what I've got lurking inside and determine if I want to take it on. Sounds like there was a recent Kitplanes article that outlines a simple mod, can anyone point me to a link? thanks, Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495954#495954 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control
From: "Dan Fritz" <Dfritzj(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 21, 2020
Thanks Bob, you read my mind! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495955#495955 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control
From: "Dan Fritz" <Dfritzj(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 21, 2020
So I just reviewed the Kitplanes article and it got me thinking of a potentially simpler solution. Please tell me if I'm crazy, but why not just replace the screw in the left brush mount with a non-conductive screw and insert fiber washers to insulate the brush mount from the B-lead. Would this then effectively separate the field from the b-lead and make the field to the internal regulator fully controllable using the already installed IGN connection? What am I missing? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495956#495956 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Get rid of Outlook issues
From: "jw06033" <jw06033(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 22, 2020
Are you getting technical problems with your Outlook account and need to fix it? Dial our Outlook customer service number (https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-outlook-support) to solve issues. The outlook is a Microsofts best product for email application and we use it on daily basis, so sometimes we face some issues with it like No connection, Outlook error codes 0x80070002, time-out error, the server could not be found, unable to start MS Outlook, and unable to send mails. These types of issues occur because of any reason that you will get from our Microsoft Support (https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-support) website. We are available here to fix your Outlook issues, so if you are one of them who is getting technical issues with outlook then dont panic and just contact our experts through our Outlook support phone number (https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-outlook-support). We are here to help you, so contact us without any hesitation. People also ask about FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions) of Outlook, so here I am giving my web-page link How do I call Outlook support? (https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-outlook-support), you may click and visit for more information. Ref. URL: http://www.apsense.com/article/get-rid-of-outlook-issues-customer-service.html Thank You! -------- https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-support Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495957#495957 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 22, 2020
Subject: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control
From: Roger&Jean <rnjcurtis(at)charter.net>
Bob, I didn't see any electrical diagram to show how the 2 new wires are connected to the system. Roger Sent from: YOGA TABLET 10 HD+ On Apr 21, 2020 10:23 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > > At 02:59 AM 4/21/2020, you wrote: >> >> Hi Bob, >> >> Recently there has been a bit of talk re using an controlling internally controlled alternators. It is very easy to modify them. >> >> In Kitplanes for Nov 2019 I had published an article on how how to modify an alternator (Nippon Denso) with virtually no surgery; and it can be easily restored to standard. Doing this totally eliminates all the hassles with the internally regulated unit. Just use the B&C Regulator. >> >> Graeme Coates >> >> Melbourne, Australia > > > I've contacted Marc Cook at Kitplanes who has graciously > approved a reprint on AeroElectric.com. > > Interested readers can access this nicely illustrated article at: > > http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Alternators/NiponDenso_Modification_Nov_2019_Kitplanes.pdf > > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
From: Finn Lassen <finn.lassen(at)verizon.net>
Date: Apr 22, 2020
On 4/21/2020 8:21 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > But given the ease with which the alternator > can be modified into a real 'aircraft' > part, any notions of a Z24 update are not > so interesting. That's what I was going to do and only have a fuseable link between B+ and battery. But a remark of "other possible alternator failure mode" made me consider putting a 80A "cube" relay in that path. I assumed that that "other failure mode" would be a shorted rectifier diode (drawing current from battery). Not sure of the likelihood of such a failure. In my experience diodes fail open (and zeners fail shorted). I really don't like a contactor because of weight and the current it draws. The 80A relay has a 85 ohm coil resistance. and the contactor I have 15 ohms. 2 W vs 12 W. I should mention I'm putting a Mazda 13B (Renesis) in an RV-4. So in a battery-only (no alternator) situation, it's important to be able to shred all loads that are not required to keep the engine running and I'm designing to electrical system accordingly. The manufacturer (RWS) of the engine controller recommends engine-essential item be powered directly from battery (via one switch/breaker). However, having dissected a failed (open) W31- breaker/switch, I'll double that with a pull-breaker, and have changed from switch/breakers to a fuse block.and switches for pumps, injectors, coils, etc. Finn ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 22, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
>That's what I was going to do and only have a fuseable link between >B+ and battery. That works >But a remark of "other possible alternator failure mode" made >me consider putting a 80A "cube" relay in that path. Waaayyy back in the dark ages, during the adolescent years of automotive alternators, the rectifiers were no so robust. I first hired into Electro-Mech about 1975. One of our products was a device you could add to your alternator-fitted automobile to convert it to a 100V dc power source to run lights and universal appliances 'in the field'. Worked okay most of the time but two many installations on Chrysler products were popping alternator diodes as a result of this installation. Had to do a messy recall. 30 years later, after inheriting a house from my father, I found one of these critters new in the box out in his shop. It never got installed. I suspect you could make this thing work on any modern alternator. The diodes have "come along way baby!" >I assumed that that "other failure mode" would be a shorted rectifier diode >(drawing current from battery). Not sure of the likelihood of such a failure. >In my experience diodes fail open (and zeners fail shorted). Actually, both devices are most likely to fail shorted due to thermal destruction of the PN barrier. >I really don't like a contactor because of weight and the current it draws. >The 80A relay has a 85 ohm coil resistance. and the contactor I have 15 ohms. >2 W vs 12 W. The WR/Stancore contactor warms up pretty good and will stabilize at some more friendly current. http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/Battery_Contactor_Temps_1.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/Battery_Contactor_Temps_2.jpg It will stabilize at about 0.6A at 14V or 8.5W Does your load analysis show that 'saving' a couple of watts is useful? But the greatest savings are secured by not having the contactor in the first place. >I should mention I'm putting a Mazda 13B (Renesis) in an RV-4. So in >a battery-only >(no alternator) situation, it's important to be able to shed all >loads that are not >required to keep the engine running and I'm designing to electrical >system accordingly. >The manufacturer (RWS) of the engine controller recommends >engine-essential item be >powered directly from battery (via one switch/breaker). However, >having dissected a >failed (open) W31- breaker/switch, I'll double that with a pull-breaker, Why any breaker at all? Yeah, I worked on the team that wrestled with that same failure in nearly the entire fleet of Bonanzas and Barons. >and have changed from switch/breakers to a fuse block.and switches for pumps, >injectors, coils, etc. Yup, they ALL want you to tie right to the battery. Suggest you consider a dual feed Engine Bus as shown in Z101. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 22, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control
At 12:52 AM 4/22/2020, you wrote: > >So I just reviewed the Kitplanes article and it got me thinking of a >potentially simpler solution. Please tell me if I'm crazy, but why >not just replace the screw in the left brush mount with a >non-conductive screw and insert fiber washers to insulate the brush >mount from the B-lead. Would this then effectively separate the >field from the b-lead and make the field to the internal regulator >fully controllable using the already installed IGN connection? What >am I missing? I'm not intimately familiar with the brush-holder configuration . . . it's been some years since I put my hands on a disassembled ND. Your suggestion appears to have merit but I would have concerns about the electrical integrity of a made-up joint held with a plastic screw. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "skywagon185guy ." <skywagon185(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 22, 2020
Subject: Re: Get rid of Outlook issues
Will never know how this "stuff" gets on the aeroelectric list...!! I would be very careful/suspicious of clicking on any of this email..... On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 2:01 AM jw06033 wrote: > > Are you getting technical problems with your Outlook account and need to > fix it? Dial our Outlook customer service number ( > https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-outlook-support) to > solve issues. > The outlook is a Microsoft=99s best product for email application a nd we use > it on daily basis, so sometimes we face some issues with it like No > connection, Outlook error codes 0x80070002, time-out error, the server > could not be found, unable to start MS Outlook, and unable to send mails. > These types of issues occur because of any reason that you will get from > our Microsoft Support ( > https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-support) website. We > are available here to fix your Outlook issues, so if you are one of them > who is getting technical issues with outlook then don=99t panic and just > contact our experts through our Outlook support phone number ( > https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-outlook-support). We > are here to help you, so contact us without any hesitation. > People also ask about FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions) of Outlook, so > here I am giving my web-page link =9CHow do I call Outlook support ? ( > https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-outlook-support) =9D, > you may click and visit for more information. > Ref. URL: > > http://www.apsense.com/article/get-rid-of-outlook-issues-customer-service .html > Thank You! > > -------- > https://www.customerservicehelpnumber.com/microsoft-support > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495957#495957 > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 22, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Get rid of Outlook issues
At 02:10 PM 4/22/2020, you wrote: >Will never know how this "stuff" gets on the aeroelectric list...!! >I would be very careful/suspicious of clicking on any of this email..... For every clever firewall there's a bunch of nefarious programmers/spammers with nothing better to do than be a nuisance. Just ignore these 'off topic' posts even if they 'appear' to originate with a righteous List member. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 22, 2020
From: Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control
Interestingly enough, I had just made this mod to a Denso alternator about a week ago, but I had never seen the article Bob references. I contemplated using a nylon screw (the screw is a metric 3 or 4 mm) but re jected the idea based on the fact that the screw in question is one of two that mounts the brush rig.=C2- I deemed that a nylon screw was not strong enough for that duty.=C2- Therefore I used a couple of nylon shoulder wa shers on the existing steel screw to electrically isolate. Also, I rejected the Denso alternator altogether because I found a Ford alternato r=C2-(from 84 Bronco) that was designed for external regulation. -Jeff wrote: At 12:52 AM 4/22/2020, you wrote: --> AeroElectric-List messageposted by: "Dan Fritz" So I just reviewed the Kitplanes article and it got me thinking of apotenti ally simpler solution. Please tell me if I'm crazy, but why notjust replace the screw in the left brush mount with a non-conductivescrew and insert fi ber washers to insulate the brush mount from theB-lead.=C2- Would this th en effectively separate the field from theb-lead and make the field to the internal regulator fully controllableusing the already installed IGN connec tion?=C2- What am Imissing? =C2- I'm not intimately familiar with the =C2- brush-holder configuration . . . it's =C2- been some years since I put my hands =C2- on a disassembled ND. Your suggestion =C2- appears to have merit but I would have =C2- concerns about the electrical integrity =C2- of a made-up joint held with a plastic =C2- screw. =C2- Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net>
Subject: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control
Date: Apr 22, 2020
Heres another way to mod the alternator, FWIW. It involves desoldering one of the brush wires and sleeving a replacement wire with shrink wrap where it goes through the brush hole in the back of the brushholder. That serves the same purpose as the insulated screw which isolates that side of the brush. The brush holders are cheap so you can experiment. https://www.canardzone.com/forums/topic/18661-kents-long-ez-project/page/11/?tab=comments#comment-61828 -Kent > On Apr 22, 2020, at 2:57 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 12:52 AM 4/22/2020, you wrote: >> >> So I just reviewed the Kitplanes article and it got me thinking of a potentially simpler solution. Please tell me if I'm crazy, but why not just replace the screw in the left brush mount with a non-conductive screw and insert fiber washers to insulate the brush mount from the B-lead. Would this then effectively separate the field from the b-lead and make the field to the internal regulator fully controllable using the already installed IGN connection? What am I missing? > > I'm not intimately familiar with the > brush-holder configuration . . . it's > been some years since I put my hands > on a disassembled ND. Your suggestion > appears to have merit but I would have > concerns about the electrical integrity > of a made-up joint held with a plastic > screw. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
From: Finn Lassen <finn.lassen(at)verizon.net>
Date: Apr 22, 2020
On 4/22/2020 1:54 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > Why any breaker at all? Indeed, with just a fusible link between battery and engine fuse block, why a switch-breaker? The only answer I can come up with: convenience. Powered by the engine bus are: Engine controller A Engine Controller B (yes, redundant controllers) Primary fuel pump Backup fuel pump Primary fuel injectors Secondary fuel injectors (fuel injection is staged, at certain MAP the second set of injectors are used too) Leading ignition coils Trailing ignition coils (13B has two spark plugs per rotor) Engine monitor (strictly speaking not needed for engine to keep running) O2 sensor (strictly speaking not needed for engine to keep running) Left to right tank transfer pump (strictly speaking not needed for engine to keep running) Starter relay (strictly speaking not needed for engine to keep running) Put the last four items on the engine bus "because they are engine related". After normal flight I will have to shut off 9 to10 switches rather than just one to ensure that engine bus does not drain battery. Separate switches for A & B controllers are not mentioned by the manufacturer. He recommends just a switch/breaker directly to battery feeding controllers and monitor. But for reason mentioned earlier, I now prefer fuses and like the ability to disconnect a misbehaving controller. (There is an A/B switch, so really would be for the rare situation where voltage regulator in one controller draws high current without blowing its fuse.) Could have one switch, but then I would want inline fuses after the switch. Regarding diodes feeding engine bus, from the EC3 manual: "Also note that the use of main battery power contactors and power distribution devices incorporating isolation diodes for backup battery connections are not recommended for alternative engine installations." I can only guess the reason is that a diode will prevent the battery to act as a very effective noise filter. Thank you Bob for all you do and your advice. Finn ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 22, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
At 05:17 PM 4/22/2020, you wrote: >On 4/22/2020 1:54 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>=EF=BDWhy any breaker at all? > >Indeed, with just a fusible link between battery >and engine fuse block, why a switch-breaker? > >The only answer I can come up with: convenience. The Engine Bus is part of your power distribution system. As a member of the FAT-wire family, no disconnects for the bus are called for . . . see Engine Bus in Z1010 >Powered by the engine bus are: > >Engine controller A >Engine Controller B (yes, redundant controllers) >Primary fuel pump >Backup fuel pump >Primary fuel injectors >Secondary fuel injectors (fuel injection is >staged, at certain MAP the second set of injectors are used too) >Leading ignition coils >Trailing ignition coils (13B has two spark plugs per rotor) >Engine monitor (strictly speaking not needed for engine to keep running) >O2 sensor (strictly speaking not needed for engine to keep running) >Left to right tank transfer pump (strictly >speaking not needed for engine to keep running) >Starter relay (strictly speaking not needed for engine to keep running) > >Put the last four items on the engine bus "because they are engine related". > >After normal flight I will have to shut off 9 to10 switches rather than >just one to ensure that engine bus does not drain battery. 10 switches? This sounds like a recipe for mis-selection in times of stressful ops. How will your check-list read for "In case of engine malfunction". If there is no check list included in the engine documentation, then CREATE ONE. You don't want to succumb to switch-flipitis at 8,000 feet. >Separate switches for A & B controllers are not mentioned by the manufacturer. >He recommends just a switch/breaker directly to battery feeding controllers >and monitor. but he is not a system integrator >But for reason mentioned earlier, I now prefer fuses and like the >ability to disconnect a misbehaving controller. (There is an A/B switch, >so really would be for the rare situation where voltage regulator in one >controller draws high current without blowing its fuse.) How about a two pole switch. One pole for each controller. Each protected by a fuse AT THE BUS? > Could have one switch, but then I would want inline fuses after the switch. > >Regarding diodes feeding engine bus, from the EC3 manual: >"Also note that the use of main battery power contactors and >power distribution devices incorporating isolation diodes for >backup battery connections are not recommended for alternative >engine installations." > >I can only guess the reason is that a diode will >prevent the battery to act as a very effective noise filter. Don't GUESS . . . KNOW. Call the dude up and get an explanation. BTW, batteries are not 'noise filters' at any level. >Thank you Bob for all you do and your advice. You're most welcome my friend. That's what we do here . . . Is there a .pdf installation manual for this system that I could see? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
From: Finn Lassen <finn.lassen(at)verizon.net>
Date: Apr 22, 2020
On 4/22/2020 8:19 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > 10 switches? This sounds like a recipe for mis-selection > in times of stressful ops. How will your check-list read > for "In case of engine malfunction". Yes, one definitely needs to be familiar with how the system functions. I've been flying my RV-3B with basically the same system for 100s of hours. I am developing checklists, but will be no substitute for knowing how the system works when it comes to troubleshooting. Example of run-up procedure (to test that backup pump, both controllers, all ignition coils and injectors work): Turn on backup fuel pump, fuel pressure should rise a bit, turn back off. RPM to 3,600, adjust mixture as needed. Turn off primary injectors, note RPM drop, turn back on. Turn off secondary injectors, note RPM drop, turn back on. Select controller B. Disable leading coils ( (On)-Off-(On) switch), note RPM drop. Disable trailing coils (same (On)-Off-(On) switch), note RPM drop. Select controller A. RPM to idle. (The two switches powering the leading and trailing coil sets are purely for troubleshooting and to turn off power to the coils. It could be just one switch, but then would want in-line fuses after the switch.) I can understand how so many switches can appear confusing, but in practice it becomes second nature. "How about a two pole switch. One pole for each controller. Each protected by a fuse AT THE BUS?" Nope, controllers are designed to normally both be powered on. For example, there is an option to copy tuning parameters from A to B (should not be done in the air). "Is there a .pdf installation manual for this system that I could see?" Emailed you the manual. Doesn't really belong on this list, even though everything is now open source after Tracy retired. Finn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Finn Lassen <finn.lassen(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Minimum wire size in aircraft
Date: Apr 22, 2020
I've been told that the minimum wire size allowed in an aircraft is 22 AWG. Why? A LED position light in the tail pulling less than 0.5A would have less than 0.3V drop over a 17 foot run. Is it a mechanical issue? Doesn't make any sense to me. Finn ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Minimum wire size in aircraft
From: "dglaeser" <glaeserx1(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 22, 2020
Who is it that told you that? Nobody told the Ray Allen trim folks about that rule . They use 26 AWG for their wiring. They are a pain for making connections, so most folks prefer using 22AWG or larger for ease of use, but smaller wires are obviously allowed. -------- Dennis Glaeser Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495973#495973 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: A R Goldman <argoldman(at)aol.com>
Date: Apr 22, 2020
Subject: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control
Kent, Thank you for your description and photos of your conversion It may be my aging eyes but the text in the photos is impossible to read. The device is in perfect focus indicating a possible depth of field problem. If you are using a cell phone focus on the tags. In any case more light will create a greater depth of field and get everything in focus Thanks again Rich Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 22, 2020, at 2:55 PM, Kent or Jackie Ashton wrote: > > > Heres another way to mod the alternator, FWIW. It involves desoldering one of the brush wires and sleeving a replacement wire with shrink wrap where it goes through the brush hole in the back of the brushholder. That serves the same purpose as the insulated screw which isolates that side of the brush. The brush holders are cheap so you can experiment. > https://www.canardzone.com/forums/topic/18661-kents-long-ez-project/page/11/?tab=comments#comment-61828 > -Kent > >> On Apr 22, 2020, at 2:57 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> At 12:52 AM 4/22/2020, you wrote: >>> >>> So I just reviewed the Kitplanes article and it got me thinking of a potentially simpler solution. Please tell me if I'm crazy, but why not just replace the screw in the left brush mount with a non-conductive screw and insert fiber washers to insulate the brush mount from the B-lead. Would this then effectively separate the field from the b-lead and make the field to the internal regulator fully controllable using the already installed IGN connection? What am I missing? >> >> I'm not intimately familiar with the >> brush-holder configuration . . . it's >> been some years since I put my hands >> on a disassembled ND. Your suggestion >> appears to have merit but I would have >> concerns about the electrical integrity >> of a made-up joint held with a plastic >> screw. >> >> >> Bob . . . >> > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control
From: "Dan Fritz" <Dfritzj(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 22, 2020
Hello All, I got some non-conductive glass-filled nylon screws (m4 x 10) from McMaster Carr today to test my proposed alternator mod. Photos of my mod are attached below. The mod was extremely simple, just remove the brush holder, loosen the three regulator mount screws, slip a fiber washer between the regulator mount and B-Lead connection, drop the brush holder back in place and replace one of the two screws with the glass-filled nylon one. The whole operation took about 10 minutes to do the first time (probably about 3 minutes after that). The field terminal is now isolated from the B-lead and appears to work correctly. I wasn't able to spin the alternator up enough on the bench to ensure it still charges correctly and stops charging with removal of the field voltage. I'll have to try that once the engine is running or I find a better bench setup. Glass filled nylon screws appear to have a tensile strength of 25 ksi and is supposed to be good to 300 degrees F. I plan to disassemble and inspect after about 10 hours of engine run time to see how the screw is faring. If it looks like the screw won't survive, I'll buy a $20 ceramic screw to replace it. I'll let the group know if this is successful once I can get a solid test of the alternator accomplished. If so, the mod is dead simple and will give full control of the regulator, allowing the traditional crowbar OVP to work as designed. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495977#495977 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/alternator_mod_142.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Minimum wire size in aircraft
From: Finn Lassen <finn.lassen(at)verizon.net>
Date: Apr 23, 2020
On 4/22/2020 10:29 PM, dglaeser wrote: > Who is it that told you that? JD at InfinityAerospace: "My A&P book says wires in a plane can't be any smaller than a 22 gauge wire. But Sport Aircraft can do what they want." Seems I've come across it elsewhere, too but don't remember where. Finn ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 23, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Minimum wire size in aircraft
At 08:38 PM 4/22/2020, you wrote: > >I've been told that the minimum wire size allowed in an aircraft is 22 AWG. > >Why? Not true. The B390 Premier aircraft used a lot of 24 AWG wire . . . okay electrically but the line crew really disliked the stuff. It's not easy to work with. >A LED position light in the tail pulling less than 0.5A would have >less than 0.3V drop over a 17 foot run. > >Is it a mechanical issue? The only rule of thumb I recall at Beech was minimum of 20AWG under the cowl for new designs . . . but mostly for mechanical reasons. Had a builder some years back that scored a good deal on a big spool of 20AWG Tefzel and wondered if it was suitable for ALL routes of 7A or less . . . of course it was. His radio bundles were a bit thicker but the d-sub pins would accept 20AWG no problem . . . and he didn't need to 'stock' two sizes of 'smaller' wires. There are no prohibitions from the regulatory standpoint for using any size wire but a lot of practical reasons for not getting carried away . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Josh Tinkham <unitink72(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 23, 2020
Subject: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control
Does anyone know which alt is modified in the article? I tried doing a quick search for Denso alts that they still manufacture new but didn't have any luck. So far my likely best cadidate for my main alt is from a 95 Dodge van. Lots of amps, external regulation out of the box. It does spin the wrong way but thats not a deal breaker for me. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 23, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control
At 10:44 AM 4/23/2020, you wrote: >Does anyone know which alt is modified in the article? >I tried doing a quick search for Denso alts that they >still manufacture new but didn't have any luck. That article is generally applicable to all ND alternators. The arrangement of rear-end parts is pretty much common to the full range of products. For the most part, auto parts stores will only carry remanufactured alternators. Modern re-manufacturing methods are quite good. Reman alternators are generally as good as new. >So far my likely best cadidate for my main alt is >from a 95 Dodge van.=C2 Lots of amps, external regulation >out of the box. Do you NEED 'lots of amps'? There are few single engine aircraft that need more than 40A. 30A runs the airplane and 10A reserve charges the battery. 40A alternators should weigh in at under 7 pounds. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net>
Subject: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control
Date: Apr 23, 2020
There are dozensmaybe hundreds--of Denso alternators with slightly different mounts and shapes. A Denso 100211012711 (55 amp) (Honda civic '84-'87, Lester # 14747) will work but it doesnt fit a Lycoming standard alternator bracket. I make the bracket out of 1/4 mild steel angle. Cut two pieces of angle. Trim and drill for the long alternator mounting bolt, then cut the undrilled legs of the angle to fit the engine, weld them together and drill to match the case holes. I get them from the junkyard, replace the bearings, brushes and clean up the commutator(?) ring. I use an aftermarket pulley so they dont turn so fast. There are small Denso models for Kubota tractors and Suzuki Smurai that will also work -Kent > On Apr 23, 2020, at 11:44 AM, Josh Tinkham wrote: > > > Does anyone know which alt is modified in the article? I tried doing a quick search for Denso alts that they still manufacture new but didn't have any luck. > > So far my likely best cadidate for my main alt is from a 95 Dodge van. Lots of amps, external regulation out of the box. It does spin the wrong way but thats not a deal breaker for me. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 23, 2020
From: Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control
Josh, The alternator I got was from a 1978 Suzuki Samurai and is identical (as fa r as I can tell) to the one in the Kit Planes article. Also, I believe that Dodge/Chrysler alternators have 'A'-circuit fields.=C2 - I'm not certain about this, perhaps another lister can confirm?=C2- T he ideal setup is to have a 'B'-circuit field.=C2-=C2- In that Kit Planes article - that Denso alternator is converted from an int ernally-regulated 'A'-circuit to and externally-regulated 'B'- circuit. Field Circuit :A-Circuit - has the regulator in the ground side of the fiel d circuit.B-Circuit - has the regulator in the 'high' side of the field cir cuit. mail.com> wrote: Does anyone know which alt is modified in the article?=C2- I tried doing a quick search for Denso alts that they still manufacture new but didn't ha ve any luck. So far my likely best cadidate for my main alt is from a 95 Dodge van.=C2 - Lots of amps, external regulation out of the box.=C2- It does spin th e wrong way but thats not a deal breaker for me. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 23, 2020
From: Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Load Analysis Spreadsheet
Listers, Is there a Load Analysis spreadsheet template available on the Aeroelectric site?=C2-=C2- I did a quick search but came up empty. TIA -Jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 23, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Preliminary tests on modern fuse link wire
I ordered in some off-the-shelf fuse link wire with the intent of testing it for behavior under high fault currents. I've seen fuse-link wire that claimed to be made of some alloy of copper with a slightly higher resistance per square. The idea being that it would melt in a less spectacular manner than pure copper. The wire I received is pure copper with a an unique (Used to be Hypalon - now discontinued and replaced by CSPE) insulation. Okay, if one of these wires were tied in a bundle with other wires, would the fusing event propagate outside to the detriment of adjacent wires? Took a 9" piece of 20AWG fuse wire out to the shop and forced 100A through it. It took 3 or 4 seconds before any reaction was evident. Heard some hissing and then a rapidly growing jet of smoke through a couple of holes that formed in the insulation. 99.5% of the insulation stayed intact save the 'vent' holes . . . pretty slick stuff. The smoke was voluminous but not particularly noxious. I think wires bundled with this stuff would be well isolated from the fusing event. I'll do more formal testing along with video coverage and fold that into a Shop Notes for the website. In the mean time, I am encouraged that this material offers an alternative to ANL or MANL fuse blocks in smaller systems. You may have noticed the fusible links in Z100 and Z101 drawings. I think those will stay. MUCH easier to fab than the earlier design shielded in Fiberglas. Cut of a chunk, splice it into the feeder with standard PIDG terminations and tie into bundle with other wires. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 23, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Load Analysis Spreadsheet
At 12:56 PM 4/23/2020, you wrote: >Listers, > >Is there a Load Analysis spreadsheet template available on the >Aeroelectric site? > >I did a quick search but came up empty. https://tinyurl.com/9rt6ymn Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name>
Date: Apr 23, 2020
Subject: Re: Load Analysis Spreadsheet
Jeff, I just made a spreadsheet with three columns: device name, typical current draw, max current draw. I made sure that my typical current draw was well within the capacity of my alternator. -- Art Z. On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 1:21 PM Jeff Luckey wrote: > Listers, > > Is there a Load Analysis spreadsheet template available on the > Aeroelectric site? > > I did a quick search but came up empty. > > > TIA > > -Jeff > -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *Sooner meet a bereaved she-bear than a fool with his nonsense. *Proverbs 17:12 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 23, 2020
On 4/21/2020 8:59 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>> My admittedly sometimes faulty memory of the whole 'load dump' >>> situation two decades ago was that guys were flipping their alt >>> switches/breakers (which controlled the B lead contactor) while the >>> alt was under load, and killing the alt. IIRC, after multiple >>> incidents like that, the OV module/contactor circuit became a lot >>> harder to find in the AEC docs. > > Yeah, your memory is correct. The Z24 pot boiled > over when I think only one individual experienced > alternator failure after cycling it. We don't know > how fast the engine was running or what the alternator > loads were . . . you never get that quality of data > from someone pointing a figure at you hollering, "you > alternator killer!" > > I think Paul M was a well entrenched advisor to > that faction of RV fans and he was rather antagonistic > to anything 'crowbar'. > >> My solution is the He Haw Solution: 'If it hurts when you do that, >> DON'T DO THAT!' > > Exactly. If the alternator is brought off and > on line at engine idle (standard ops) then > there is no risk. > >> Here's my take: If I operate the IR alternator just like it's >> operated in the car, I'll never have a load dump event. If I use an >> OV module that is relatively immune to 'false positives', along with >> a relatively robust B lead contactor, the only penalty I see is >> carrying a few ounces of extra weight for the contactor. The >> contactor will never operate unless the regulator has failed (in an >> OV mode), in which case the 'load dump' issue is already moot. > > That was the spirit and intent of the design > but I failed to include a note precluding random > operations at high rpm. In all fairness, any > alternator should be able to respond safely > to on/off commands under any speed and load > conditions. > > >> This lets me use an off the shelf, *very inexpensive*, available at >> any auto supply, alternator. It won't be as reliable as a B&C, but >> based on anecdotal evidence from RV-x owners, a *lot* more reliable >> than a Plane Power. And I'll have about $500 left over to buy fuel. >> (Replacement alts, if ever needed, will be free.) If I do have to >> replace the alt while away from home, no mod to the alt is needed, >> and replacement can happen on the ramp with only a couple of wrenches. > > Is PlanePower having issues? I think they > were bought out by a company that shall > remain nameless. Has their craftsmanship > suffered? > >> I have had several different 'lives' as an electronics tech, from >> home electronics to pro sound, to industrial gear. Even though I'd >> consider myself to be well above average in qualifications, I trust >> an 'as-built' alternator to be more reliable than one that I've modded. > > YEeaahh . . . with reservations. The recent > Kitplanes article we've discussed here is > a rather benign operation . . . with profound > benefit. > >> My opinion is that if any update is made, it would be to redesign the >> OV module to reduce the risk of 'false positive' nuisance trips, and >> retain the B lead relay. Perhaps do a little testing on whether a >> single contact automotive cube relay can reliably open the B lead, >> *once*, as Bob Noffs mentioned, and treat the relay as if it's a >> fusible link. > > If we combined the crowbar feature with > the 200A 'cube' relay, the ov sense could > be a microcontroller that waits until the > relay contacts are sensed to be open before > triggering the FET. That would reduce abuse > to the relay to insignificance for both > an OV shutdown -AND- the normal on/off commands > at ANY rpm. > > To be sure, MOST modern alternators including > rebuilds should be able to stand off the load > dump spike. > >> Realistically, if the OV module fires at ~16V, how much energy is >> really there? How much delay will there be from hitting the voltage >> threshold to the contacts opening? If we used a 100A cube relay >> (which *should*, by definition, be able to actively control a 100A >> load), will it really be stressed by 60-70 amps at ~20V? Or will the >> voltage (and energy) be much higher by the time the contacts actually >> start to open? I realize that voltage will spike upward as the >> contacts separate, but will it be bad enough in a 'one shot' >> environment to weld the contacts? > > Yeah, an ov trip condition is asserted when > bus voltage rises above 16v for say 500 mS. > By this time, the energy 'spring' in the > failed alternator is really wound up pretty > good. I've observed field voltages on the > order of 1 to 2 volts for alternators carrying > a normal running load at cruise rpm. So > if you suddenly increase that voltage to 15v, > the 'spring' starts winding rapidly while held > at bay by the battery+system loads. > > This is the special condition that might be > handled nicely with a fat-FET and relay. > . . . I'd want to do some studies on the > alternator test stand before running very far down > that rabbit hole. > > But FOR SURE . . . a fat-FET and diode would > be a piece of cake because there's no timing > to worry about and the b-lead never rises very > far given that it's loaded down by the ship's > battery. Best yet, no concerns for keeping your > contacts out of the fire. > > For an AUX alternator in the 20-30A class, > the diode/fet crowbar need not be very > beefy. Maybe not so attractive for MAIN > alternators in the 60A+ class. Voltage > drop across the diode becomes an energy > management issue. > > There was a time that Cessna was using > some fat diodes in the alternator b-leads > to orchestrate an alternator failure > sensor some guy at Cessna dreamed up . . . > not me! > > Here are some excerpts from a kit I wrote to > put a 100A alternator on a USAF U17. That > diode dropped about 0.9V at 100A for a > dissipation the order of 90W. Needless > to say, the heatsink was impressive. I > seem to recall we did a similar thing > on the C337. Had to dig pretty deep into > the archives for those images. Wrote that > kit in 1968! > > A Schottky b-lead diode for a 30A alternator > would be much more manageable. > > > Bob . . . > Sorry for the tardy reply; been a bit 'distracted'. RE: Plane Power alts. No personal experience, but the RV guys are a fairly large sample (in a/c terms). If you go to the VAF forum and search 'plane power', you'll find dozens of instances where the brand has failed at low to very low hours. I think I've only seen one or two B&C failures mentioned. Now this could be because it is the one Van's offers when you buy an alt from them, so the population is higher. But the guys who buy again seem to often report additional failures, while those who convert to B&C don't. The guys who've done autopsies aren't just reporting electronic failures; there are connector issues, failed internal stator and/or field leads, etc etc. RE: crowbar redesign for IR alts. You wrote: "If we combined the crowbar feature with the 200A 'cube' relay, the ov sense could be a microcontroller that waits until the relay contacts are sensed to be open before triggering the FET. That would reduce abuse to the relay to insignificance for both an OV shutdown -AND- the normal on/off commands at ANY rpm." Is this the correct order for protecting the relay contacts? I would have thought that the FET should sit between the B terminal and relay, and fire *1st*, so that there isn't a high energy arc at the relay contacts. I'd expect the FET to be much faster than the relay, if the protection circuit could fire the LED at the same instant that it crowbars the CB feeding the relay (even without a microcontroller to do the timing). Did I misunderstand the goal, or circuit arrangement? Charlie -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 23, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
>RE: Plane Power alts. No personal experience, but the RV guys are a >fairly large sample (in a/c terms). If you go to the VAF forum and >search 'plane power', you'll find dozens of instances where the >brand has failed at low to very low hours. I think I've only seen >one or two B&C failures mentioned. Now this could be because it is >the one Van's offers when you buy an alt from them, so the >population is higher. But the guys who buy again seem to often >report additional failures, while those who convert to B&C >don't. The guys who've done autopsies aren't just reporting >electronic failures; there are connector issues, failed internal >stator and/or field leads, etc etc. Hmmmm . . . interesting. I had occasion to do failure analysis on another Hartzell alternator supplied to a UAV project. Again, no 'electronic' failure but a failure in craftsmanship. > RE: crowbar redesign for IR alts. You wrote: > "If we combined the crowbar feature with > the 200A 'cube' relay, the ov sense could > be a microcontroller that waits until the > relay contacts are sensed to be open before > triggering the FET. That would reduce abuse > to the relay to insignificance for both > an OV shutdown -AND- the normal on/off commands > at ANY rpm." > >Is this the correct order for protecting the relay contacts? I would >have thought that the FET should sit between the B terminal and >relay, and fire *1st*, so that there isn't a high energy arc at the >relay contacts. I'd expect the FET to be much faster than the relay, >if the protection circuit could fire the LED at the same instant >that it crowbars the CB feeding the relay (even without a >microcontroller to do the timing). Did I misunderstand the goal, or >circuit arrangement? You need to wait until the contacts were first break so that the FET wasn't trying to crowbar BOTH the alternator and battery. This is what makes the FAT diode isolator electrically more attractive. OV sense and reaction becomes a lot easier. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2020
From: Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net>
Subject: Crowbar_B-Lead Drawing
Bob, The alternator in this drawing may not start.=C2-=C2- Most of the internal reg machines I've looked at use battery energy at the B terminal to power the internal reg and excite the field.=C2- With the d iode blocking B+ to that terminal, the alternator may not be able to self-s tart.=C2- Unless of course the CTRL lead actually provides power to the r egulator.=C2- But on single-wire alternators this circuit may be problema tic. -Jeff /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAgEASABIAAD/4QiERXhpZgAATU0AKgAAAAgABwESAAMAAAABAAEAAAEaAAUA AAABAAAAYgEbAAUAAAABAAAAagEoAAMAAAABAAIAAAExAAIAAAAUAAAAcgEyAAIAAAAUAAAAhodp AAQAAAABAAAAnAAAAMgAAABIAAAAAQAAAEgAAAABQWRvYmUgUGhvdG9zaG9wIDcuMAAyMDIwOjA0 OjIxIDE5OjExOjQwAAAAAAOgAQADAAAAAf//AACgAgAEAAAAAQAAAyygAwAEAAAAAQAAATQAAAAA AAAABgEDAAMAAAABAAYAAAEaAAUAAAABAAABFgEbAAUAAAABAAABHgEoAAMAAAABAAIAAAIBAAQA AAABAAABJgICAAQAAAABAAAHVgAAAAAAAABIAAAAAQAAAEgAAAAB/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAgEASABI AAD/7QAMQWRvYmVfQ00AAv/uAA5BZG9iZQBkgAAAAAH/2wCEAAwICAgJCAwJCQwRCwoLERUPDAwP 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Subject: Re: OV B-lead Relay
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 23, 2020
On 4/23/2020 7:55 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> RE: Plane Power alts. No personal experience, but the RV guys are a >> fairly large sample (in a/c terms). If you go to the VAF forum and >> search 'plane power', you'll find dozens of instances where the brand >> has failed at low to very low hours. I think I've only seen one or >> two B&C failures mentioned. Now this could be because it is the one >> Van's offers when you buy an alt from them, so the population is >> higher. But the guys who buy again seem to often report additional >> failures, while those who convert to B&C don't. The guys who've done >> autopsies aren't just reporting electronic failures; there are >> connector issues, failed internal stator and/or field leads, etc etc. > > Hmmmm . . . interesting. I had occasion to > do failure analysis on another Hartzell > alternator supplied to a UAV project. > Again, no 'electronic' failure but a > failure in craftsmanship. > > >> RE: crowbar redesign for IR alts. You wrote: >> "If we combined the crowbar feature with >> the 200A 'cube' relay, the ov sense could >> be a microcontroller that waits until the >> relay contacts are sensed to be open before >> triggering the FET. That would reduce abuse >> to the relay to insignificance for both >> an OV shutdown -AND- the normal on/off commands >> at ANY rpm." >> >> Is this the correct order for protecting the relay contacts? I would >> have thought that the FET should sit between the B terminal and >> relay, and fire *1st*, so that there isn't a high energy arc at the >> relay contacts. I'd expect the FET to be much faster than the relay, >> if the protection circuit could fire the LED at the same instant that >> it crowbars the CB feeding the relay (even without a microcontroller >> to do the timing). Did I misunderstand the goal, or circuit arrangement? > > You need to wait until the contacts > were first break so that the FET wasn't trying > to crowbar BOTH the alternator and battery. This > is what makes the FAT diode isolator electrically > more attractive. OV sense and reaction becomes > a lot easier. > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > Bob . . . > Ah...yes. Forgot that the battery would try to drive the short. Thanks for clearing my head. :-) -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 23, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Crowbar_B-Lead Drawing
At 08:12 PM 4/23/2020, you wrote: >Bob, > >The alternator in this drawing may not start. > >Most of the internal reg machines I've looked at use battery energy >at the B terminal to power the internal reg and excite the >field. With the diode blocking B+ to that terminal, the alternator >may not be able to self-start. Unless of course the CTRL lead >actually provides power to the regulator. But on single-wire >alternators this circuit may be problematic. > >\ That's something to be explored for sure . . . If that's a problem, then a resistor across the diode might get it. It doesn't take much to wake 'em up. I'm thinking something on the order of 10 ohms, 25w would surely do it and maybe not even that much priming current. Of course that same resistor would become a parasitic load on the crowbar FET during a shut down . . . I've not been able to acquire schematics of any modern alternators. Back about 2004 I did a study on the Motorola MC33099 https://tinyurl.com/ybot24z5 which is a pretty sophisticated piece of silicon. I don't think it's made any more. The block diagram doesn't suggest a substantial power path from the control/ign terminals to the field winding. Field power source is indeed the B terminal. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Josh Tinkham <unitink72(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 23, 2020
Subject: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control
With an IFR panel and EFI, my math comes out to 50 amps usage worst case with the landing lights and pitot heat on at the same time. I'm also considering seat heaters. I understand that a max worst-case shouldn't be my amp requirement. But I also don't think 40 amps will cut it. 60-70 is the range I'd like to see. I did not know about the A/B field circuit difference. Will explore that more, thanks Jeff. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Alternator field control configurations
The terms "A-circuit" and "B-circuit" are holdovers from the days of wound field DC generators. The terms were adopted to define how voltage applied to the field terminal from outside affected the output. They've migrated into modern 'alternator speak'. The terms A and B-Circuit are applicable whether the alternator is internally or externally regulated. A fifth configuration is always externally regulated because BOTH field leads are brought out. The attached images describe 5 variations of alternator field wiring: Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Bose Headset Replacement Plug
Date: Apr 24, 2020
Whilst doing my research on how to replace the phone plug on my Bose A20 headset, I ran across an article by Matt Dralle who modified a Bose A20 headset to make it to automatically turn on. In the article he took the Bose electronics all apart and did the modification.and he was able to put it all back together again so I figure that he must be pretty smart and he would be the guy to know what color wires to solder to the headphone plug for my replacement Neutrix NP3X plug. Does anyone out there know how to get a hold of Matt and can you please ask him the question: What color wires (red/black/white/blue/green) are supposed to be soldered on to the replacement Neutrik NP3X plug's three lugs (tip/center/ring)? THANKS FOR THE HELP!!! From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com On Behalf Of billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 10:35 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bose Headset Replacement Plug Greetings Ya'All, I am still trying to find out what color wire connects to the phone jack lugs of the Bose A20 "GA wire harness". >From the recommendations you gave from my last post on this subject I tried to do a continuity check of the wires to the phone plug so as to determine what color wires went to the jack lugs however the wires were broken inside. I then tried to dig out the plastic molded on cable end and trace the wire colors to the plug however as the molded on plastic was removed it pulled off the colored insulation from the wires so now I.and my headset.are dead in the water because I do not know what wire is supposed to go where. So I need to know what color wires (red/black/white/blue/green) are supposed to be soldered on to the replacement Neutrik NP3X plug's three lugs (tip/center/ring) and If you can help I would be greatly appreciative since Bose wants 300 bucks for a replacement cable. THANKS!!!! Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Alternator field control configurations
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 24, 2020
On 4/24/2020 11:56 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > The terms "A-circuit" and "B-circuit" are holdovers from > the days of wound field DC generators. The terms were adopted > to define how voltage applied to the field terminal from > outside affected the output. They've migrated into modern > 'alternator speak'. > > The terms A and B-Circuit are applicable whether the > alternator is internally or externally regulated. > A fifth configuration is always externally regulated > because BOTH field leads are brought out. > > The attached images describe 5 variations of alternator > field wiring: > > Bob . . . > For the new guys, the 'internal regulator A-Circuit' is what you're likely to see in a Nippon Denso (ND) IR alternator. Q1 in the drawing is, effectively, what keeps us from having positive control via the 'control input'. If Q1 shorts collector to emitter, *or*, if anything inside the regulator block fails and applies full DC voltage to the base of Q1, the alternator 'runs away' in an OV event. I tried repeatedly to explain this to one of the VAF forum members who is quite active in the electronic section of the forum and is supposed to be very knowledgeable, but he adamantly insists that he has full control over his ND alternator via the control terminal. (Even after posting an ND block diagram showing exactly what Bob just showed us.) I know that at least a few of us monitor both this list and the VAF RV forum. If you're new to electrical/electronic stuff, be very careful about trusting the E/E stuff you read on VAF. Odds of getting correct info over there are closer to a dice roll than a coin flip. Charlie -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bose Headset Replacement Plug
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 24, 2020
Bill, Did you see my post on how to ID the leads using a 1 1/2 Volt flashlight battery? On 4/24/2020 12:52 PM, billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com wrote: > > Whilst doing my research on how to replace the phone plug on my Bose > A20 headset, I ran across an article by Matt Dralle who modified a > Bose A20 headset to make it to automatically turn on. In the article > he took the Bose electronics all apart and did the modificationand he > was able to put it all back together again so I figure that he must be > pretty smart and he would be the guy to know what color wires to > solder to the headphone plug for my replacement Neutrix NP3X plug. > > Does anyone out there know how to get a hold of Matt and can you > please ask him the question: > > What color wires (red/black/white/blue/green) are supposed to be > soldered on to the replacement Neutrik NP3X plugs three lugs > (tip/center/ring)? > > THANKS FOR THE HELP!!! > > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > *On Behalf Of > *billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 21, 2020 10:35 AM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Bose Headset Replacement Plug > > Greetings YaAll, > > I am still trying to find out what color wire connects to the phone > jack lugs of the Bose A20 GA wire harness > > From the recommendations you gave from my last post on this subject I > tried to do a continuity check of the wires to the phone plug so as to > determine what color wires went to the jack lugs however the wires > were broken inside. I then tried to dig out the plastic molded on > cable end and trace the wire colors to the plug however as the molded > on plastic was removed it pulled off the colored insulation from the > wires so now Iand my headsetare dead in the water because I do not > know what wire is supposed to go where. > > So I need to know what color wires (red/black/white/blue/green) are > supposed to be soldered on to the replacement Neutrik NP3X plugs > three lugs (tip/center/ring) and > > If you can help I would be greatly appreciative since Bose wants 300 > bucks for a replacement cable. > > THANKS!!!! > > Bill > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator field control configurations
Date: Apr 24, 2020
On 2020-04-24, at 17:56, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > The attached images describe 5 variations of alternator > field wiring: Bob - for me just an academic point at present, but which of those corresponds to the Rotax 91X alternator setup, please? It uses an external regulator, the factory-supplied Ducati or the apparently superior Schicke GR6. in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator field control configurations
At 01:23 PM 4/24/2020, you wrote: > > >On 2020-04-24, at 17:56, Robert L. Nuckolls, III > wrote: > > > The attached images describe 5 variations of alternator > > field wiring: > > >Bob - for me just an academic point at present, but which of those >corresponds to the Rotax 91X alternator setup, please? It uses an >external regulator, the factory-supplied Ducati or the apparently >superior Schicke GR6. > >in friendship If your talking about an alternator bolted to the vacuum pump pad, it will no doubt be a b-circuit, spline drive, pad mounted device. The alternator INTERNAL to the Rotax is a permanent magnet, unregulated AC output alternator that must be paired with a rectifier/regulator tailored to the task That's a whole different subject. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Alternator field control configurations
From: "Dan Fritz" <Dfritzj(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 24, 2020
Are the typical ND IR alternators of the Internal Regulator A-Circuit type with the control input simply bonded to the B-lead? If so, then the mod I've performed with the non-conductive screw (in the other thread on Alternator Mods) only gives control in "normal" ops and does not protect from a failed regulator, meaning a b-lead disconnect would still be required. Correct? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496019#496019 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Joel Ventura <ventura(at)brandeis.edu>
Date: Apr 24, 2020
Subject: Re: Alternator field control configurations: Death
Bob, please don't die. I don't know what I would do without you. --Joel On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 1:02 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > The terms "A-circuit" and "B-circuit" are holdovers from > the days of wound field DC generators. The terms were adopted > to define how voltage applied to the field terminal from > outside affected the output. They've migrated into modern > 'alternator speak'. > > The terms A and B-Circuit are applicable whether the > alternator is internally or externally regulated. > A fifth configuration is always externally regulated > because BOTH field leads are brought out. > > The attached images describe 5 variations of alternator > field wiring: > > Bob . . . > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Bose Headset Replacement Plug
Date: Apr 24, 2020
> Did you see my post on how to ID the leads using a 1 1/2 Volt flashlight battery? Sorry not when you initially posted it.just read it now. Would it be safe to assume that the black wire is the ground? I am so close I do not want try fry anything. I was hoping to find someone on this forum who has done this repair and knew the exact colors to place where. I was really surprised that the phone plug had 5 wires as I just assumed that it would have only three. From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com On Behalf Of Charlie England Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 11:12 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bose Headset Replacement Plug Bill, Did you see my post on how to ID the leads using a 1 1/2 Volt flashlight battery? On 4/24/2020 12:52 PM, billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com wrote: Whilst doing my research on how to replace the phone plug on my Bose A20 headset, I ran across an article by Matt Dralle who modified a Bose A20 headset to make it to automatically turn on. In the article he took the Bose electronics all apart and did the modification.and he was able to put it all back together again so I figure that he must be pretty smart and he would be the guy to know what color wires to solder to the headphone plug for my replacement Neutrix NP3X plug. Does anyone out there know how to get a hold of Matt and can you please ask him the question: What color wires (red/black/white/blue/green) are supposed to be soldered on to the replacement Neutrik NP3X plug's three lugs (tip/center/ring)? THANKS FOR THE HELP!!! From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com On Behalf Of billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 10:35 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bose Headset Replacement Plug Greetings Ya'All, I am still trying to find out what color wire connects to the phone jack lugs of the Bose A20 "GA wire harness". >From the recommendations you gave from my last post on this subject I tried to do a continuity check of the wires to the phone plug so as to determine what color wires went to the jack lugs however the wires were broken inside. I then tried to dig out the plastic molded on cable end and trace the wire colors to the plug however as the molded on plastic was removed it pulled off the colored insulation from the wires so now I.and my headset.are dead in the water because I do not know what wire is supposed to go where. So I need to know what color wires (red/black/white/blue/green) are supposed to be soldered on to the replacement Neutrik NP3X plug's three lugs (tip/center/ring) and If you can help I would be greatly appreciative since Bose wants 300 bucks for a replacement cable. THANKS!!!! Bill Virus-free. www.avast.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bose Headset Replacement Plug
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 24, 2020
To cover all bases, you can power up the headset and check all combinations of wire pairs for *voltage* before doing anything else. Black is *likely* to be ground/common, but you just need to check for yourself. I agree that it's odd to have 5 wires going to a 3 terminal plug, but maybe they just used the same cable for everything, & didn't hook up the extra conductors in the cable for the phones plug. I've seen similar stuff in things like USB and serial cables. Does (did...) the headset work in non-noise-cancelling mode if the batteries are dead or removed? If so, you could do the battery trick even without it being powered up. Another option, if you haven't tried it yet, is to take an exacto knife to the old plug. Cut along the molded housing (not across) a little depth at a time, trying to peel it away from the conductors before going a little deeper. You might be able to get past the broken spot in the wires so you can check wire colors with an ohm meter. I've had good luck doing this with molded connectors on other products. Charlie On 4/24/2020 6:15 PM, billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com wrote: > > > Did you see my post on how to ID the leads using a 1 1/2 Volt > flashlight battery? > > Sorry not when you initially posted itjust read it now. > > Would it be safe to assume that the black wire is the ground? I am so > close I do not want try fry anything. > > I was hoping to find someone on this forum who has done this repair > and knew the exact colors to place where. I was really surprised that > the phone plug had 5 wires as I just assumed that it would have only > three. > > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > *On Behalf Of *Charlie > England > *Sent:* Friday, April 24, 2020 11:12 AM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Bose Headset Replacement Plug > > Bill, > > Did you see my post on how to ID the leads using a 1 1/2 Volt > flashlight battery? > > On 4/24/2020 12:52 PM, billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com > wrote: > > Whilst doing my research on how to replace the phone plug on my > Bose A20 headset, I ran across an article by Matt Dralle who > modified a Bose A20 headset to make it to automatically turn on. > In the article he took the Bose electronics all apart and did the > modificationand he was able to put it all back together again so > I figure that he must be pretty smart and he would be the guy to > know what color wires to solder to the headphone plug for my > replacement Neutrix NP3X plug. > > Does anyone out there know how to get a hold of Matt and can you > please ask him the question: > > What color wires (red/black/white/blue/green) are supposed to be > soldered on to the replacement Neutrik NP3X plugs three lugs > (tip/center/ring)? > > THANKS FOR THE HELP!!! > > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > > > *On Behalf > Of *billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 21, 2020 10:35 AM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > > *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Bose Headset Replacement Plug > > Greetings YaAll, > > I am still trying to find out what color wire connects to the > phone jack lugs of the Bose A20 GA wire harness > > From the recommendations you gave from my last post on this > subject I tried to do a continuity check of the wires to the phone > plug so as to determine what color wires went to the jack lugs > however the wires were broken inside. I then tried to dig out the > plastic molded on cable end and trace the wire colors to the plug > however as the molded on plastic was removed it pulled off the > colored insulation from the wires so now Iand my headsetare dead > in the water because I do not know what wire is supposed to go where. > > So I need to know what color wires (red/black/white/blue/green) > are supposed to be soldered on to the replacement Neutrik NP3X > plugs three lugs (tip/center/ring) and > > If you can help I would be greatly appreciative since Bose wants > 300 bucks for a replacement cable. > > THANKS!!!! > > Bill > > > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Bose Headset Replacement Plug
Date: Apr 24, 2020
> Does (did...) the headset work in non-noise-cancelling mode if the batteries are dead or removed? If so, you could do the battery trick even without it being powered up. Yes it did so I will try that first. >Another option, if you haven't tried it yet, is to take an exacto knife to the old plug. Cut along the molded housing (not across) a little depth at a time, trying to peel it away from the conductors before going a little deeper. You might be able to get past the broken spot in the wires so you can check wire colors with an ohm meter. I've had good luck doing this with molded connectors on other products. That is how I screwed it up. I tried to slowly cut down and peel the plastic back however that plastic was molded on very tight and as I peeled away the wire insulation came off and all I found was three wire conductors connected to the three rings of the plug. Thanks Charlie From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com On Behalf Of Charlie England Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 5:09 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bose Headset Replacement Plug To cover all bases, you can power up the headset and check all combinations of wire pairs for *voltage* before doing anything else. Black is *likely* to be ground/common, but you just need to check for yourself. I agree that it's odd to have 5 wires going to a 3 terminal plug, but maybe they just used the same cable for everything, & didn't hook up the extra conductors in the cable for the phones plug. I've seen similar stuff in things like USB and serial cables. Does (did...) the headset work in non-noise-cancelling mode if the batteries are dead or removed? If so, you could do the battery trick even without it being powered up. Another option, if you haven't tried it yet, is to take an exacto knife to the old plug. Cut along the molded housing (not across) a little depth at a time, trying to peel it away from the conductors before going a little deeper. You might be able to get past the broken spot in the wires so you can check wire colors with an ohm meter. I've had good luck doing this with molded connectors on other products. Charlie On 4/24/2020 6:15 PM, billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com wrote: > Did you see my post on how to ID the leads using a 1 1/2 Volt flashlight battery? Sorry not when you initially posted it.just read it now. Would it be safe to assume that the black wire is the ground? I am so close I do not want try fry anything. I was hoping to find someone on this forum who has done this repair and knew the exact colors to place where. I was really surprised that the phone plug had 5 wires as I just assumed that it would have only three. From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com On Behalf Of Charlie England Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 11:12 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bose Headset Replacement Plug Bill, Did you see my post on how to ID the leads using a 1 1/2 Volt flashlight battery? On 4/24/2020 12:52 PM, billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com wrote: Whilst doing my research on how to replace the phone plug on my Bose A20 headset, I ran across an article by Matt Dralle who modified a Bose A20 headset to make it to automatically turn on. In the article he took the Bose electronics all apart and did the modification.and he was able to put it all back together again so I figure that he must be pretty smart and he would be the guy to know what color wires to solder to the headphone plug for my replacement Neutrix NP3X plug. Does anyone out there know how to get a hold of Matt and can you please ask him the question: What color wires (red/black/white/blue/green) are supposed to be soldered on to the replacement Neutrik NP3X plug's three lugs (tip/center/ring)? THANKS FOR THE HELP!!! From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com On Behalf Of billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 10:35 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bose Headset Replacement Plug Greetings Ya'All, I am still trying to find out what color wire connects to the phone jack lugs of the Bose A20 "GA wire harness". >From the recommendations you gave from my last post on this subject I tried to do a continuity check of the wires to the phone plug so as to determine what color wires went to the jack lugs however the wires were broken inside. I then tried to dig out the plastic molded on cable end and trace the wire colors to the plug however as the molded on plastic was removed it pulled off the colored insulation from the wires so now I.and my headset.are dead in the water because I do not know what wire is supposed to go where. So I need to know what color wires (red/black/white/blue/green) are supposed to be soldered on to the replacement Neutrik NP3X plug's three lugs (tip/center/ring) and If you can help I would be greatly appreciative since Bose wants 300 bucks for a replacement cable. THANKS!!!! Bill Virus-free. www.avast.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Bose Headset Replacement Plug
Date: Apr 25, 2020
Still striking out on my headset plug replacement.cant believe this is so dang complicated. I did as Charlie recommended, I stripped all six wire ends and used a 1.5 volt battery to see if I could hear the headset speakers click hoping to find the mystery three wires. Instead, only when the black and green wires are touched together will both speakers click. No matter what other combination of wires are touched together there will be no sound at all out of the speakers. There are six colored wires (ORANGE/GREEN/ BLUE/ YELLOW/ WHITE/ BLACK) and the braided shield. Why would a plug that has only three conductors have six wires routed to it. When I broke the plastic molded end off there were only three conductors soldered to the plug lugs and sadly the colored wire insulation came off with the plastic. I even tried opening up the plastic electronics housing and I was kinda hoping to find three wires going to one connector and three to a second conductor as a hint however the six wires all go to one 6pin connector. So any suggestions other than paying 300 bucks to buy a new one? From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com On Behalf Of billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 10:35 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bose Headset Replacement Plug Greetings Ya'All, I am still trying to find out what color wire connects to the phone jack lugs of the Bose A20 "GA wire harness". >From the recommendations you gave from my last post on this subject I tried to do a continuity check of the wires to the phone plug so as to determine what color wires went to the jack lugs however the wires were broken inside. I then tried to dig out the plastic molded on cable end and trace the wire colors to the plug however as the molded on plastic was removed it pulled off the colored insulation from the wires so now I.and my headset.are dead in the water because I do not know what wire is supposed to go where. So I need to know what color wires (red/black/white/blue/green) are supposed to be soldered on to the replacement Neutrik NP3X plug's three lugs (tip/center/ring) and If you can help I would be greatly appreciative since Bose wants 300 bucks for a replacement cable. THANKS!!!! Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 25, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator field control configurations
At 01:54 PM 4/24/2020, you wrote: > >Are the typical ND IR alternators of the Internal Regulator >A-Circuit type with the control input simply bonded to the >B-lead? To the best of my knowledge, all ND alterantors are A-Circuit. The CONTROL input is not driven by the b-lead. CONTROL inputs exist only on internal regulated machines. This input comes from the IGN circuit in automobiles or the ALT switch in airplanes. It supplies no current to excite the field winding, only an ON/OFF command to the regulator electronics. See attached block diagram of A-Circuit, I-R alternator. >If so, then the mod I've performed with the non-conductive screw >(in the other thread on Alternator Mods) only gives control in >"normal" ops and does not protect from a failed regulator, >meaning a b-lead disconnect would still be required. Correct? No. The purpose of your mod is to completely isolate the brushes from the factory A-Configuration (one brush to B-term, the other to the regulator output transistor). When two wires are brought out as part of the mod, the machine then becomes 'universal' . . . you may then use an external regulator of any stripe. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: Bose Headset Replacement Plug
Date: Apr 25, 2020
I don=99t remember you saying if it was an A20 or X model but if it =99s an A20, maybe this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Dual-Plug-Cable-for-Bose-A20-series-Aviatio n-Headset-HH/163901594462?pageci=77c40890-b9cb-40d0-975c-a7a7630c5f1b > On Apr 25, 2020, at 12:59 PM, billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com wrote: > > =EF=BB > Still striking out on my headset plug replacementcant believe thi s is so dang complicated > > I did as Charlie recommended, I stripped all six wire ends and used a 1.5 v olt battery to see if I could hear the headset speakers click hoping to find the mystery three wires. > > Instead, only when the black and green wires are touched together will bot h speakers click. > > No matter what other combination of wires are touched together there will b e no sound at all out of the speakers. > > There are six colored wires (ORANGE/GREEN/ BLUE/ YELLOW/ WHITE/ BLACK) and the braided shield > > Why would a plug that has only three conductors have six wires routed to i t. When I broke the plastic molded end off there were only three conductors soldered to the plug lugs and sadly the colored wire insulation came off wi th the plastic. > > I even tried opening up the plastic electronics housing and I was kinda ho ping to find three wires going to one connector and three to a second conduc tor as a hint however the six wires all go to one 6pin connector. > > So any suggestions other than paying 300 bucks to buy a new one? > > > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-lis t-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com > Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 10:35 AM > To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bose Headset Replacement Plug > > Greetings Ya=99All, > > I am still trying to find out what color wire connects to the phone jack l ugs of the Bose A20 =9CGA wire harness=9D > > =46rom the recommendations you gave from my last post on this subject I tr ied to do a continuity check of the wires to the phone plug so as to determi ne what color wires went to the jack lugs however the wires were broken insi de. I then tried to dig out the plastic molded on cable end and trace the w ire colors to the plug however as the molded on plastic was removed it pulle d off the colored insulation from the wires so now Iand my headset are dead in the water because I do not know what wire is supposed to g o where. > > So I need to know what color wires (red/black/white/blue/green) are suppos ed to be soldered on to the replacement Neutrik NP3X plug=99s three lu gs (tip/center/ring) and > > If you can help I would be greatly appreciative since Bose wants 300 bucks for a replacement cable. > > THANKS!!!! > > Bill > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Preliminary tests on modern fuse link wire
From: "markfw" <markwheelermd(at)icloud.com>
Date: Apr 25, 2020
Bob, Thank you for doing this experimental research on fusible links. They appear to be an elegant and lightweight solution to my problem of where to mount an MANL fitting for my alternator b-lead in my cub. I will be using a 40 amp externally regulated B&C alternator. My average load will be 30 amps. I am using 8 AWG wire for the b-lead. The normal rule for link sizing is apparently to go up 4 steps in AWG size. This would suggest using a 12 AWG link. However the ampacity of 12 AWG wire is only 30 amps according to the National Electrical code. This seems a little low, but I realize that fusible links will usually significantly exceed their nominal ampacity before "blowing". What do you think in terms of link size? Can you suggest a brand for Hypalon jacketed fusible links? It doesn't seem to be called out in many of the listings for fusible links. How long should the link be? I assume that it should be as close the battery as possible? Thanks. Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496033#496033 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Preliminary tests on modern fuse link wire
From: "markfw" <markwheelermd(at)icloud.com>
Date: Apr 25, 2020
Bob, Thank you for doing this experimental research on fusible links. They appear to be an elegant and lightweight solution to my problem of where to mount an MANL fitting for my alternator b-lead in my cub. I will be using a 40 amp externally regulated B&C alternator. My average load will be 30 amps. I am using 8 AWG wire for the b-lead. The normal rule for link sizing is apparently to go up 4 steps in AWG size. This would suggest using a 12 AWG link. However the ampacity of 12 AWG wire is only 30 amps according to the National Electrical code. This seems a little low, but I realize that fusible links will usually significantly exceed their nominal ampacity before "blowing". What do you think in terms of link size? Can you suggest a brand for Hypalon jacketed fusible links? It doesn't seem to be called out in many of the listings for fusible links. How long should the link be? I assume that it should be as close the battery as possible? Thanks. Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496032#496032 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 25, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator field control configurations: Death
At 02:10 PM 4/24/2020, you wrote: >Bob, please don't die.=C2 I don't know what I would do without you. Rumors of my demise are greatly exaggerated . . . Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 25, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Preliminary tests on modern fuse link wire
At 01:18 PM 4/25/2020, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Thank you for doing this experimental research on fusible links. >They appear to be an elegant and lightweight solution to my >problem of where to mount an MANL fitting for my alternator b-lead in my cub. Agreed >I will be using a 40 amp externally regulated B&C alternator. >My average load will be 30 amps. > >I am using 8 AWG wire for the b-lead. The normal rule for link >sizing is apparently to go up 4 steps in AWG size. This would >suggest using a 12 AWG link. However the ampacity of 12 AWG >wire is only 30 amps according to the National Electrical code. NEC has no applicability here . . . I'd go with a 10AWG b-lead feeder and 14AWG fusible link. They will be just gine. >This seems a little low, but I realize that fusible links will >usually significantly exceed their nominal ampacity before "blowing". Yes, that 20AWG link I tested took perhaps 3-4 SECONDS at 100A before there was observable reaction. A 22AWG Tefzel wire will carry 20A indefinitely without stressing Tefzel insulation at room temperature. http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wire/22AWG_20A.pdf 3 AWG steps doubles the cross section, so a 17AWG wire would perform approximaterly the same at 40A. >What do you think in terms of link size? 10/14 will be just fine >Can you suggest a brand for Hypalon jacketed fusible links? >It doesn't seem to be called out in many of the listings for fusible links. Most search engines on automotive parts site suck for air. Go into an autoparts store and cruise the selection of fuses. They'll have fusible links in the same section. Here's and exemplar part: https://tinyurl.com/y9677jrz You might want to replace the butt splice with a PIDG. Given the currents involved on this path, REALLY gas-tight joints are called for. >How long should the link be? I assume that it should be >as close the battery as possible? Yes . . . AS SHOWN on z-figures How ever long comes in the package . . . I have read recommendations for 9" minimum when using bulk wire . . . but I've not yet seen a justification for that number based on physics. Based on a bit more study and perhaps some ShopNotes additions to aeroelectric.com, I will recommend that B&C acquire bulk fusible link wire. Those pre-fab assemblies from Smiley Jack's Car Parts are pretty pricey, however, perhaps worth it when compared to cost-of-ownership for installing an MANL or ANL currently limiter. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 25, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: any PhotoShop gurus out there?
The aeroelectric logo artwork on my website was created on a whim by a Ukrainian I help to immigrate to US about 22 years ago. He just sent it to me one weekend and I thought it impressive and prescient. I've been using it ever since. The image he sent me was only 250 pixels wide. Hence the loco has limited serviceability. I'd like to have his work reproduced with a bit more resolution . . . say at least 3x that granularity. If I had it to do over, it would probably look a lot different but the spirit in which it was crafted and offered makes it special . . . it just needs 'spruced up' a tad. My competency in PhotoShop doesn't extend much past cropping, contrast and color correction. I'm wondering if someone in the AeroElectric-List community with far greater skill might not be able to accomplish this task with a lot less effort. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fwd: Fusible links
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 25, 2020
Not yet tested in the heat of battle, but this is what I did for a pair of 55A Denso IR alts using contactor protection. Blue are #12 fuselink; pair of red #8 exiting the pic at the top go to the alts. As shown, one alternator feeds the main bus via load side of master contactor; the other alternator feeds the engine bus directly, from the battery via source side of master contactor. The engine bus alt will be considered backup, but I wanted one alt tied to the engine bus so I could keep active charging in the (admittedly very unlikely) event of 'total electrical failure' of the main bus side of things. Sorry for the weird perspective; best I could do with the engine sitting in the way. All the contactors are mounted in the prop governor recess in an RV-7 firewall. Electronic fuel injected engine. Using identical alts because they would fit, no load shedding needed, and the little 20A dynamos are only ~2 lbs lighter than the Denso 55A. Charlie Sent from BlueMail <http://www.bluemail.me/r?b=15726> -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au>
Subject: Re: any PhotoShop gurus out there?
Date: Apr 26, 2020
Give me a bit of time and Ill see what I can do Bob. V/r Stu > On 26 Apr 2020, at 6:20 am, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > The aeroelectric logo artwork on my website was > created on a whim by a Ukrainian I help to immigrate > to US about 22 years ago. He just sent it to me > one weekend and I thought it impressive and prescient. > > I've been using it ever since. > > The image he sent me was only 250 pixels wide. Hence > the loco has limited serviceability. I'd like to > have his work reproduced with a bit more resolution . . . > say at least 3x that granularity. > > If I had it to do over, it would probably look > a lot different but the spirit in which it was > crafted and offered makes it special . . . it > just needs 'spruced up' a tad. > > My competency in PhotoShop doesn't extend much past > cropping, contrast and color correction. I'm wondering > if someone in the AeroElectric-List community > with far greater skill might not be able to > accomplish this task with a lot less effort. > > > > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 25, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: any PhotoShop gurus out there?
At 10:42 PM 4/25/2020, you wrote: >Hutchison > >Give me a bit of time and I=99ll see what I can do Bob. > >V/r Stu No hurry . . . been using the original for about 20 years! Thanks for looking at this. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au>
Subject: Re: any PhotoShop gurus out there?
Date: Apr 26, 2020
VGhhdOKAmXMgT0suIERvIHlvdSBtaW5kIHNlbmRpbmcgYSBkaXJlY3QgZS1tYWlsIHNvIEkgY2Fu IHNoYXJlIGRyYWZ0cyB3aXRob3V0IHNwYW1taW5nIHRoZSBmb3J1bSBwbGVhc2UgQm9iPw0KDQpL aW5kIHJlZ2FyZHMsIFN0dQ0KDQpTZW50IGZyb20gbXkgaVBob25lDQoNCk9uIDI2IEFwciAyMDIw LCBhdCAxNTowOSwgUm9iZXJ0IEwuIE51Y2tvbGxzLCBJSUkgPG51Y2tvbGxzLmJvYkBhZXJvZWxl Y3RyaWMuY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCg0K77u/IEF0IDEwOjQyIFBNIDQvMjUvMjAyMCwgeW91IHdyb3Rl Og0KLS0+IEFlcm9FbGVjdHJpYy1MaXN0IG1lc3NhZ2UgcG9zdGVkIGJ5OiBTdHVhcnQgSHV0Y2hp c29uIDxzdHVhcnRAc3R1YXJ0aHV0Y2hpc29uLmNvbS5hdT4NCg0KR2l2ZSBtZSBhIGJpdCBvZiB0 aW1lIGFuZCBJw6LigqzihKJsbCBzZWUgd2hhdCBJIGNhbiBkbyBCb2IuDQoNClYvciBTdHUNCg0K IE5vIGh1cnJ5IC4gLiAuIGJlZW4gdXNpbmcgdGhlIG9yaWdpbmFsIGZvciBhYm91dA0KIDIwIHll YXJzISBUaGFua3MgZm9yIGxvb2tpbmcgYXQgdGhpcy4NCg0KDQoNCiAgQm9iIC4gLiAuDQo ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 26, 2020
Subject: OT: any PhotoShop gurus out there...now video editing
software. Cant help on the Photoshop but this is distantly related I guess! Any recommendations on relatively simple video editing software at a fair price? I have used Pinnacle Studio for many years but find it clunky and heavy on resources. Best Regards, Bob Verwey 082 331 2727 On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 at 09:28, Stuart Hutchison < stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au> wrote: > That=99s OK. Do you mind sending a direct e-mail so I can share dra fts > without spamming the forum please Bob? > > Kind regards, Stu > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 26 Apr 2020, at 15:09, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > =EF=BB At 10:42 PM 4/25/2020, you wrote: > > stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au> > > Give me a bit of time and I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2ll see what I can do B ob. > > V/r Stu > > > No hurry . . . been using the original for about > 20 years! Thanks for looking at this. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Bose Headset Replacement Plug
Date: Apr 26, 2020
Tim, Thanks for the link. Great minds think alike as I had found this replacement on eBay and that was the inspiration for me opening up the electronics/battery compartment. There is a super small six conductor plug that connects the wires to the PC board and it seems that the replacement cable does not have the plug so I would have to use the very small telephone cord butt splices to splice it to the electronics/battery box. This might be a cheap option and I could make it less ugly if I staggered the splices and used heavy wall heat shrink tubing to cover the splices. There is a guy on another forum who fixes headsets and I reached out to him to see if he could provide me the three color wires for the plug so I will report back. From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2020 11:11 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bose Headset Replacement Plug I don=99t remember you saying if it was an A20 or X model but if it=99s an A20, maybe this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Dual-Plug-Cable-for-Bose-A20-series-Avia tion-Headset-HH/163901594462?pageci=77c40890-b9cb-40d0-975c-a7a7630c5f1 b On Apr 25, 2020, at 12:59 PM, billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com wrote: =EF=BB Still striking out on my headset plug replacementcant believe this is so dang complicated I did as Charlie recommended, I stripped all six wire ends and used a 1.5 volt battery to see if I could hear the headset speakers click hoping to find the mystery three wires. Instead, only when the black and green wires are touched together will both speakers click. No matter what other combination of wires are touched together there will be no sound at all out of the speakers. There are six colored wires (ORANGE/GREEN/ BLUE/ YELLOW/ WHITE/ BLACK) and the braided shield Why would a plug that has only three conductors have six wires routed to it. When I broke the plastic molded end off there were only three conductors soldered to the plug lugs and sadly the colored wire insulation came off with the plastic. I even tried opening up the plastic electronics housing and I was kinda hoping to find three wires going to one connector and three to a second conductor as a hint however the six wires all go to one 6pin connector. So any suggestions other than paying 300 bucks to buy a new one? From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > On Behalf Of billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 10:35 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bose Headset Replacement Plug Greetings Ya=99All, I am still trying to find out what color wire connects to the phone jack lugs of the Bose A20 =9CGA wire harness=9D >From the recommendations you gave from my last post on this subject I tried to do a continuity check of the wires to the phone plug so as to determine what color wires went to the jack lugs however the wires were broken inside. I then tried to dig out the plastic molded on cable end and trace the wire colors to the plug however as the molded on plastic was removed it pulled off the colored insulation from the wires so now Iand my headsetare dead in the water because I do not know what wire is supposed to go where. So I need to know what color wires (red/black/white/blue/green) are supposed to be soldered on to the replacement Neutrik NP3X plug=99s three lugs (tip/center/ring) and If you can help I would be greatly appreciative since Bose wants 300 bucks for a replacement cable. THANKS!!!! Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
From: R Adams <rnadms(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 26, 2020
Subject: Re: Bose Headset Replacement Plug
might this Google search be of any help? https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&client=opera&hs=ne&sxsrf= ALeKk02FDjIzcNjwLE9EuLguvkDPXxdNNw%3A1587928058120&ei=-tulXpDjBsW2ggf-kK7 ICw&q=bose+headset+wiring+diagram&oq=Bose+Headset+wiring+digram&gs_lcp =CgZwc3ktYWIQARgAMgQIABANMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMggIABAIEA0QHjII CAAQCBANEB46BAgAEEc6BwgAEBQQhwI6AggAOgQIABBDOgUIABDEAjoECAAQClCgHljjQWC1XGg AcAJ4AIABugGIAaUNkgEEMC4xNJgBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXo&sclient=psy-ab On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 7:01 PM wrote: > Tim, > > > Thanks for the link. > > > Great minds think alike as I had found this replacement on eBay and that > was the inspiration for me opening up the electronics/battery compartment . > > > There is a super small six conductor plug that connects the wires to the > PC board and it seems that the replacement cable does not have the plug s o > I would have to use the very small telephone cord butt splices to splice it > to the electronics/battery box. This might be a cheap option and I could > make it less ugly if I staggered the splices and used heavy wall heat > shrink tubing to cover the splices. > > > There is a guy on another forum who fixes headsets and I reached out to > him to see if he could provide me the three color wires for the plug so I > will report back. > > > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com < > owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> *On Behalf Of *Tim Olson > *Sent:* Saturday, April 25, 2020 11:11 AM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Bose Headset Replacement Plug > > > I don=99t remember you saying if it was an A20 or X model but if it =99s an > A20, maybe this: > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Dual-Plug-Cable-for-Bose-A20-series-Avia tion-Headset-HH/163901594462?pageci=77c40890-b9cb-40d0-975c-a7a7630c5f1b > > > On Apr 25, 2020, at 12:59 PM, billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com wrote: > > =EF=BB > > Still striking out on my headset plug replacementcant believe th is is so > dang complicated > > > I did as Charlie recommended, I stripped all six wire ends and used a 1.5 > volt battery to see if I could hear the headset speakers click hoping to > find the mystery three wires. > > > Instead, only when the black and green wires are touched together will > both speakers click. > > > No matter what other combination of wires are touched together there will > be no sound at all out of the speakers. > > > There are six colored wires (ORANGE/GREEN/ BLUE/ YELLOW/ WHITE/ BLACK) an d > the braided shield > > > Why would a plug that has only three conductors have six wires routed to > it. When I broke the plastic molded end off there were only three > conductors soldered to the plug lugs and sadly the colored wire insulatio n > came off with the plastic. > > > I even tried opening up the plastic electronics housing and I was kinda > hoping to find three wires going to one connector and three to a second > conductor as a hint however the six wires all go to one 6pin connector. > > > So any suggestions other than paying 300 bucks to buy a new one? > > > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com < > owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> *On Behalf Of * > billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 21, 2020 10:35 AM > *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Bose Headset Replacement Plug > > > Greetings Ya=99All, > > > I am still trying to find out what color wire connects to the phone jack > lugs of the Bose A20 =9CGA wire harness=9D > > > From the recommendations you gave from my last post on this subject I > tried to do a continuity check of the wires to the phone plug so as to > determine what color wires went to the jack lugs however the wires were > broken inside. I then tried to dig out the plastic molded on cable end a nd > trace the wire colors to the plug however as the molded on plastic was > removed it pulled off the colored insulation from the wires so now I and my > headsetare dead in the water because I do not know what wire is supposed > to go where. > > > So I need to know what color wires (red/black/white/blue/green) are > supposed to be soldered on to the replacement Neutrik NP3X plug=99s three > lugs (tip/center/ring) and > > > If you can help I would be greatly appreciative since Bose wants 300 buck s > for a replacement cable. > > > THANKS!!!! > > > Bill > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 26, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Mod to External Control X-Attachments: C:\Users\User\Downloads\2 wire field.jpg; At 08:19 AM 4/22/2020, you wrote: >Bob, > >I didn't see any electrical diagram to show how the 2 new wires are >connected to the system. > >Roger This particular mod converts the stock alternator into a 'universal' field configuration and is wired like this: Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 26, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Video editing software
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OT: any PhotoShop gurus out there...now video editing software. Cc: At 03:41 AM 4/26/2020, you wrote: >Cant help on the Photoshop but this is distantly related I guess! > >Any recommendations on relatively simple video editing software at a >fair price? > >I have used Pinnacle Studio for many years but find it clunky and >heavy on resources. I'd been using MovieMaker for years but when I updated my computer my old version of MM wouldn't run under Win10. There are several offerings on the 'net which install for free but want some $ to get a full featured version. I found a 2016 edition that does run under Win10. It's intuitive and compact. You won't win any Oscars for editing with this package but it has served me well for a long time. It's no longer offered by Windows. You're welcome to try it https://tinyurl.com/y9r4zv4w Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 26, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Fusible links
At 03:34 PM 4/25/2020, you wrote: >Not yet tested in the heat of battle, but this is what I did for a >pair of 55A Denso IR alts using contactor protection. Blue are #12 >fuselink; pair of red #8 exiting the pic at the top go to the alts. Nifty installation! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com>
Subject: Re: Video editing software
Date: Apr 26, 2020
There are a bunch of free video editing platforms. I haven=99t used th em (Final Cut Pro person, myself) but have a a look at, for example: openShot https://www.openshot.org/ Shotcut: https://shotcut.org/ On Apr 26, 2020, at 16:07, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectri c.com> wrote: =EF=BB To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OT: any PhotoShop gurus out there...now vide o editing software. Cc: At 03:41 AM 4/26/2020, you wrote: > Cant help on the Photoshop but this is distantly related I guess! > > Any recommendations on relatively simple video editing software at a fair p rice? > > I have used Pinnacle Studio for many years but find it clunky and heavy on resources. I'd been using MovieMaker for years but when I updated my computer my old version of MM wouldn't run under Win10. There are several offerings on the 'net which install for free but want some $ to get a full featured version. I found a 2016 edition that does run under Win10. It's intuitive and compact. You won't win any Oscars for editing with this package but it has served me well for a long time. It's no longer offered by Windows. You're welcome to try it https://tinyurl.com/y9r4zv4w Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 26, 2020
From: M E <mse103(at)mac.com>
Subject: Re: Video editing software
I recommend davinci resolve its free, a little steeper learning curve from apple iMovie, but great tool. Mark > There are a bunch of free video editing platforms. I haven=99t us ed them (=46inal Cut Pro person, myself) but have a a look at, for exampl e: > > openShot=C2-https://www.openshot.org/ > Shotcut:=C2-https://shotcut.org/ > > > On Apr 26, 2020, at 16:07, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > To: aeroelectric-list=40matronics.com > =46rom: =22Robert L. Nuckolls, III=22 > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OT: any PhotoShop gurus out there...now video editing software. > Cc: > > At 03:41 AM 4/26/2020, you wrote: > > Cant help on the Photoshop but this is distantly related I guess=21 > > > > Any recommendations on relatively simple video editing software at a fair price=3F > > > > I have used Pinnacle Studio for many years but find it clunky and hea vy on resources. > > =C2- I'd been using MovieMaker for years but when > =C2- I updated my computer my old version of MM > =C2- wouldn't run under Win10. There are several > =C2- offerings on the 'net which install for free > =C2- but want some =24 to get a full featured version. > > =C2- I found a 2016 edition that does run under > =C2- Win10. It's intuitive and compact. You won't > =C2- win any Oscars for editing with this package > =C2- but it has served me well for a long time. > =C2- It's no longer offered by Windows. > > =C2- You're welcome to try it > > https://tinyurl.com/y9r4zv4w > > > =C2- Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Bose Headset Replacement Plug
Date: Apr 26, 2020
> might this Google search be of any help? Thanks R Adams the Google search link however sadly I was unable to find what I needed. Like when I did the Google search before I posted on AeroElectric I found lots of wire diagrams for aircraft receptacles that accept the Bose headset plugs and these used different wire colors and I also found a number of wire diagrams for other model Bose headsets however the wire colors on those diagrams were also different than the ORANGE/GREEN/ BLUE/ YELLOW/ WHITE/ BLACK wires in my headset plug end. Does somebody know somebody who would know From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com On Behalf Of R Adams Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 12:11 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bose Headset Replacement Plug might this Google search be of any help? https://www.google.com/search?safe=active &client=opera&hs=ne&sxsrf=ALeKk02FDjIzcNjwLE9EuLguvkDPXxdNNw%3A1587 928058120&ei=-tulXpDjBsW2ggf-kK7ICw&q=bose+headset+wiring+diagram&oq= Bose+Headset+wiring+digram&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQARgAMgQIABANMgYIABAWEB4yB ggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMggIABAIEA0QHjIICAAQCBANEB46BAgAEEc6BwgAEBQQhwI6AggAOg QIABBDOgUIABDEAjoECAAQClCgHljjQWC1XGgAcAJ4AIABugGIAaUNkgEEMC4xNJgBAKABAao BB2d3cy13aXo&sclient=psy-ab On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 7:01 PM > wrote: Tim, Thanks for the link. Great minds think alike as I had found this replacement on eBay and that was the inspiration for me opening up the electronics/battery compartment. There is a super small six conductor plug that connects the wires to the PC board and it seems that the replacement cable does not have the plug so I would have to use the very small telephone cord butt splices to splice it to the electronics/battery box. This might be a cheap option and I could make it less ugly if I staggered the splices and used heavy wall heat shrink tubing to cover the splices. There is a guy on another forum who fixes headsets and I reached out to him to see if he could provide me the three color wires for the plug so I will report back. From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2020 11:11 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bose Headset Replacement Plug I don=99t remember you saying if it was an A20 or X model but if it=99s an A20, maybe this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Dual-Plug-Cable-for-Bose-A20-series-Avia tion-Headset-HH/163901594462?pageci=77c40890-b9cb-40d0-975c-a7a7630c5f1 b On Apr 25, 2020, at 12:59 PM, billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com wrote: =EF=BB Still striking out on my headset plug replacementcant believe this is so dang complicated I did as Charlie recommended, I stripped all six wire ends and used a 1.5 volt battery to see if I could hear the headset speakers click hoping to find the mystery three wires. Instead, only when the black and green wires are touched together will both speakers click. No matter what other combination of wires are touched together there will be no sound at all out of the speakers. There are six colored wires (ORANGE/GREEN/ BLUE/ YELLOW/ WHITE/ BLACK) and the braided shield Why would a plug that has only three conductors have six wires routed to it. When I broke the plastic molded end off there were only three conductors soldered to the plug lugs and sadly the colored wire insulation came off with the plastic. I even tried opening up the plastic electronics housing and I was kinda hoping to find three wires going to one connector and three to a second conductor as a hint however the six wires all go to one 6pin connector. So any suggestions other than paying 300 bucks to buy a new one? From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com > On Behalf Of billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 10:35 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bose Headset Replacement Plug Greetings Ya=99All, I am still trying to find out what color wire connects to the phone jack lugs of the Bose A20 =9CGA wire harness=9D >From the recommendations you gave from my last post on this subject I tried to do a continuity check of the wires to the phone plug so as to determine what color wires went to the jack lugs however the wires were broken inside. I then tried to dig out the plastic molded on cable end and trace the wire colors to the plug however as the molded on plastic was removed it pulled off the colored insulation from the wires so now Iand my headsetare dead in the water because I do not know what wire is supposed to go where. So I need to know what color wires (red/black/white/blue/green) are supposed to be soldered on to the replacement Neutrik NP3X plug=99s three lugs (tip/center/ring) and If you can help I would be greatly appreciative since Bose wants 300 bucks for a replacement cable. THANKS!!!! Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Preliminary tests on modern fuse link wire
From: "bcone1381" <bcone1964(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 27, 2020
Humm. Concerning the B lead wire size. In the above case, the expected load is 30A, the Alternator is 40A. A typical wire size on your Z-diagrams is 4 to 6 AWG The proper size from the wire table for 30A is 10 AWG, but for 40A its 8 AWG. Since you say use 10 AWG for the B-lead, can I say the authoritative rule for B-lead wire is the Load Analysis, not the Z-diagram or the Alternator output? -------- Brooks Cone Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496064#496064 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Preliminary tests on modern fuse link wire
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 27, 2020
If debating two sizes, I would go with the larger size. Do not forget battery charging current. And larger wire might slightly reduce alternator whine in vulnerable loads. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496069#496069 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bose Headset Replacement Plug
From: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net>
Date: Apr 27, 2020
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 27, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Preliminary tests on modern fuse link wire
At 07:47 AM 4/27/2020, you wrote: > >Humm. Concerning the B lead wire size. > >In the above case, the expected load is 30A, the Alternator is 40A. understand >A typical wire size on your Z-diagrams is 4 to 6 AWG >The proper size from the wire table for 30A is 10 AWG, >but for 40A its 8 AWG. 'Proper' is not a term carved in stone. As explained in chapter 8 and illustrated in Figure 8-4 and demonstrated in the bench experiment at https://tinyurl.com/6qr72fr backed up with specifications offered at: https://tinyurl.com/y88kyypu The operating current for a wire is based on satisfactory insulation temperatures in the application being configured. Take a peek at qualification temperatures in the cited wire spec . . . the wire has to stand off various abuses at 200C. As shown in Figure 8-4, a 10AWG wire will rise 30C with 45A of current flow. With 150C wire, this means that our b-lead would not be pushed beyond recommended limits with an ambient temperature of 120C. There are no sustained conditions under the cowl that would produce risk to the 10AWG b-lead at 45A. From a voltage drop perspective 10AWG is 0.001 ohms per foot; a 3-foot b-lead would drop 0.045 volts at 45A . . . also no big deal. Further, the only time you would even come close to loading this alternator to near full output would be in cruise . . . buckets of cooling air coming in. Wire tables are exceedingly conservative recommendations unlikely to create hazards for situations where the system integrator is on solid, low-risk ground. But this does not preclude one from considering departures from the table values. In this case, I considered the availability of commercial off the shelf fusible links and found that 14AWG was a pretty common size for the largest link. Okay, that protects a 10AWG wire. Question: Would a 10AWG wire be at risk when used in the situation we're discussing? I concluded that it would not. >Since you say use 10 AWG for the B-lead, can I say the >authoritative rule for B-lead wire is the Load Analysis, >not the Z-diagram or the Alternator output? The tables are not 'authoritative' for anything except the special case which created the tables. The plots in Figure 8-4 are helpful for examining other cases. I've always been a bit queasy working on cars and taking note of the wire and fuse sizes selected for various tasks. Sometimes the fuses seem just a bit 'too big' and/or the wires just a bit 'too small'. But electrical fires having root cause in insulation failure are rare if not non-existent. The folk in Detroit have to be pretty careful with their trade-offs between cost/performance/risk. They produce cars by the millions . . . their exposure for professional malfeasance is pretty sobering! Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 27, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Preliminary tests on modern fuse link wire
At 10:50 AM 4/27/2020, you wrote: > >If debating two sizes, I would go with the larger size. >Do not forget battery charging current. Battery charging current is part of the alternator's load at the b-terminal. Battery demands are not a component of the design calculation. > And larger wire might slightly reduce alternator whine in vulnerable loads. There are no "loads" particularly vulnerable to alternator whine. The vast majority of alternator noise issues are conductivly coupled to the victim's low level signal paths via ground loops. A tiny percentage are magnetically coupled in wire bundles. See my narrative on alternator whine in my newly acquired Plymouth Voyager back about 1990. The b-lead on my 87 GMC pick-em-up truck is 10AWG. It'a about 18" long and runs from the b-term right to the battery(+) terminal. The alternator options INCLUDE machines up to 90A in output. At 90a, and 0.0015 milliohms of wire, the voltage drop would be 135 millivolts and dissipate 12 watts. No doubt the wire would warm up pretty good . . . but the thing is hanging out in the air right behind the cooling air flow out of the radiator. This lead doesn't event have a fusible link . . . it just hangs out in the air. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ron Burnett <ronburnett(at)charter.net>
Date: Apr 28, 2020
Subject: Battery recharge technique
My RV6A had dual batteries and the Bus Manager system from Protek and a dual EFII ignition system. What is the proper order (technique) for hooking a charger up. The charger has three settings the last being AGM for my Oddessy PC680s. Such as when to plug charger into the electric, etc. Also, in a dual system can I charge both batteries by hookup to the alternator fat wire and would I still use AGM? Thanks, Ron Burnett May you have the Lord's blessings today! Sent from my iPad ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 28, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Battery recharge technique
At 11:01 AM 4/28/2020, you wrote: > >My RV6A had dual batteries and the Bus Manager system from Protek >and a dual EFII ignition system. > >What is the proper order (technique) for hooking a charger up. How big a charger is this? i.e. what is the charge current? Do I presume correctly that the charger has a 'maintenance' mode and can be left connected indefinitely? What is your thinking for using a 'charger' as opposed to simple battery maintainers? The artfully maintained AGM battery has a very low self-discharge rated. This means that if you fly at least once every 30 days, the battery(ies) will be up and ready for every flight. For long term storage like over the winter, it's useful to use a small battery maintainer . . . a small almost-a-charger that offsets the tiny self-discharge currents and keeps the battery topped off. The only time you need a CHARGER is when the battery has been inadvertently depleted and requires substantial replenishment. In this case, having a charge rate of 3, 6, or even 10A will get the battery back on its feet. >The charger has three settings the last being AGM for my >Oddessy PC680s. Such as when to plug charger into the electric, etc. > >Also, in a dual system can I charge both batteries by hookup to the >alternator fat wire and would I still use AGM? I'm assuming you are expecting the charger to emulated a running alternator. To make this work, your system would have to be powered up with both battery contactors closed. Charging in-situ batteries from outside the aircraft is best managed by a charging or 'ground maintenance' connector. Preferably one for each battery. Of course, these same connectors would provide a means for applying battery maintainers for long term storage. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 28, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Super-whizzy energy management systems
I just became aware of an incident involving complete loss of power from an electrically dependent engine that occurred some years ago. The accident airplane had a lot in common with the narrative we have going with Ron. I've posted a copy of a narrative at https://tinyurl.com/y7xksy6v While this narrative has a lot more data than most 'dark-n-scarry-nite' stories in the journals, it is still short of critical information necessary to ferret out root cause. Fortunately, the pilot walked away. I'll suggest this is a classic example of a system that was too complex, would not yield to a critical FMEA and may have suffered some deficiencies in craftsmanship. I'll let you guys read this thing first and come up with questions one might ask if you were on an accident investigation team. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 28, 2020
From: Michael Wynn <mlwynn(at)aol.com>
Subject: Contact Cleaning?
Hi folks, I am restoring a 1977 Pitts S1-S.The project has taken about three years. =C2- For that time, the radios have been in a box.=C2- I re-installed t hem yesterday.=C2- The transponder works fine, the com radio is a King KY 97A.=C2- After putting it back in its slot, the reception is great but it won't transmit.=C2- I check the PTT switch and it is working normally. =C2- the TX light does not come on so I suspect the radio is not receivin g the instruction to transmit.=C2- Seems most likely that where the radio slides into the rack that the one that triggers transmit is not making pro per contact. So, my question is, what is the best way to clean the contacts?=C2- I hav e radioshack contact cleaner spray that I thought I would start with.=C2- Is there some mechanical way to clean them?=C2- Q-tips? white scotchguar d? Fine file?=C2- Removing the whole stack to get to that part is going t o be a major PITA so would like to try to get the contacts cleaned without major disassembly.=C2-=C2- I would much appreciate any advice Regards, Michael WynnLivermore, CA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 28, 2020
Subject: Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems
On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 1:50 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> > > I just became aware of an incident involving > complete loss of power from an electrically > dependent engine that occurred some years ago. > > The accident airplane had a lot in common > with the narrative we have going with Ron. > > I've posted a copy of a narrative at > > https://tinyurl.com/y7xksy6v > > > [snipped] > > I'll let you guys read this thing first and > come up with questions one might ask if > you were on an accident investigation team. > > > Bob . . . > > My 1st question is whether that alternator ground wire was the only connection between the engine and the airframe, as seems likely. Charlie ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Locking toggle switch
From: "jdpnm" <jdp3322(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 28, 2020
Locking toggle switch 4 sale. NEW Honeywell / Microswitch MS27408-4A this is 2 Pole with 3 locking positions. Screw terminals. I ended up with one extra. Hope this helps someone. Toggle must be Pulled out to change switch. Prevents accidental turning off the battery contactor. This is a 2-10 type switch as used in Bobs Z101 with Off-Bat-Alt positions. SteinAir gets $72 + SH. Asking $40 shipped cont. USA. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496092#496092 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 28, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems
> >My 1st question is whether that alternator ground wire was the only >connection between the engine and the airframe, as seems likely. > >Charlie Good one. Let's put that one on the table. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Logo
From: "John M Tipton" <johntiptonuk(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Apr 28, 2020
Hi Bob Is this any help: Regards John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496095#496095 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/thumbnail_aeroelectric_connection_709.png ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 28, 2020
Subject: Re: Battery recharge technique
From: Neal George <neal.george(at)gmail.com>
Gentlemen =93 I would not presume to disagree with Bob on things electric. Just a data point from my experience. The CherokeeJet has a Concorde behind the rear baggage bulkhead (can=99t re member if it=99s 25- or 35-AHr).=C2- It often sits neglected for months at a t ime, with little more than a touch on the wingtip and a regretfully muttered =9Cmaybe tomorrow=9D =C2-It gets no electrical support between flights (I think I plugged it up once after an extended session of fiddling with the avionics (Schumacher 1562)). =C2-I don=99t remember when the current battery was mounted, but it has been many years.=C2- On those rare occasions that I do get to drag it out, the battery spins the engine happily, and has no troubl e grunting the initial compression strokes. =C2- On the other hand, I have killed several PC680s while not finishing my RV-7 project =93 some hooked to the 1562, others not. My experience implies some of us worry way too much.=C2- Neal ========= The artfully maintained AGM battery has a very low self-discharge rated. This means that if you fly at least once every 30 days, the battery(ies) will be up and ready for every flight. For long term storage like over the winter, it's useful to use a small battery maintainer . . . a small almost-a-charger that offsets the tiny self-discharge currents and keeps the battery topped off. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems
From: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 28, 2020
It seems that the engine quit because the electrical system voltage was too high which damaged critical engine components, despite what the manufacturer of the fuel injection and ignition systems stated. Factors that led to the high voltage include a poorly crimped cable, omission of an alternator on-off switch, lack of alternator over-voltage protection, and batteries that stop accepting charging current in case of high voltage, which allowed the voltage to climb even higher. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496100#496100 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 28, 2020
Did the alternator's integral regulator have overvoltage protection? Did it trip? What is it's trip voltage? Were there any blown fuses or tripped circuit breakers supplying power to the ECUs or coilpacks? What in the ignition system failed? ECUs? Coilpacks? Were they bench tested post accident? How do we know the ignitions systems failed? What is the sample rate of the EMS? Could it miss a short spike in voltage that would destroy the ECU or coilpacks? Is it possible for ECU programming to be affected by voltage transients such as from the loose alternator crimp? Were there any other bad connections in the aircraft besides the alternator ground wire? Is there a complete electrial power schematic for the aircraft? Does it match the implementation? Was the alternator ground wire the only ground for the engine? Did the injectors or coilpacks require the engine to be grounded for them to receive power? -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360 Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F. john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496101#496101 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 29, 2020
From: Charles Kuss <chaskuss(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems
The pilot had an overcharge condition. Did his system have an over voltage warning system? The pilot's failure to install a breaker/switch for the al ternator, left him with no way to disconnect the alternator. No other provi sions are provided in his design to deal with an over voltage event. Accord ing to the supplied schematic, that would be his only option for protecting the batteries and making a safe continuation of the flight. Due to the des ign of the "Bus Manager" a [open circuit] failure of the internal diodes co uld leave the emergency power switch all but useless. Further, the pilot's choice of two LiFe batteries, left him with less of an electrical "sponge" to absorb the over voltage event, compared to using at least 1 flooded cell or AGM battery. To me, both the pilot and the company who supplied the "bus manager" failed at making a safe system. The changes the pilot made, surely fall under the "major change" category. That would have required the pilot to make 5 hour s of test flights in the vicinity of his home airport. Had this been done, most likely, he would have made it back to the runway safely. Charlie Kuss On Tuesday, 28 April 2020, 17:05:14 GMT-4, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: ls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> I just became aware of an incident involving complete loss of power from an electrically dependent engine that occurred some years ago. The accident airplane had a lot in common with the narrative we have going with Ron. I've posted a copy of a narrative at https://tinyurl.com/y7xksy6v While this narrative has a lot more data than most 'dark-n-scarry-nite' stories in the journals, it is still short of critical information necessary to ferret out root cause. Fortunately, the pilot walked away. I'll suggest this is a classic example of a system that was too complex, would not yield to a critical FMEA and may have suffered some deficiencies in craftsmanship. I'll let you guys read this thing first and come up with questions one might ask if you were on an accident investigation team. =C2- Bob . . . - S - WIKI - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 28, 2020
Subject: Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems
16.3 volts just does not seem very high. It is hard to accept that 16.3 volts would fry these products, which seem to come from reputable vendors (SDS and FlyEFII). On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 4:50 PM user9253 wrote: > > It seems that the engine quit because the electrical system voltage was too > high which damaged critical engine components, despite what the > manufacturer of the fuel injection and ignition systems stated. > Factors that led to the high voltage include a poorly crimped cable, > omission > of an alternator on-off switch, lack of alternator over-voltage > protection, and > batteries that stop accepting charging current in case of high voltage, > which > allowed the voltage to climb even higher. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496100#496100 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems
From: Gilles Thesee <gilles@elixir-aircraft.com>
Date: Apr 29, 2020
Le 29/04/2020 03:30, johnbright a crit: > > Is there a complete electrial power schematic for the aircraft? Does it match the implementation? > > Was the alternator ground wire the only ground for the engine? Did the injectors or coilpacks require the engine to be grounded for them to receive power? > Hi all, Found some schematic and installation instructions here : https://www.flyefii.com/media/Bus_Manager_Installation_Instructions.pdf -- Best regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring
From: "MFleming" <sagriver(at)icloud.com>
Date: Apr 28, 2020
After looking over Z101, this is my first try at an architecture that would fit my mission. Criticism will be taken as constructive, no offense taken. Looking into my avionics suite, the Garmin GAD 27 controller should prevent brown outs so I eliminated the BO option. The idea of having a clearance delivery bus to upload flight plans and well, get a clearance, really appealed to me so it's included. The strobes are on that bus so I would not walk away from the aircraft with the clearance delivery bus still energized. Speaking to B&C today about their standby alternator had me include their standby regulator. The wiring of it is per their drawings. B&C says the standby alternator wired this way would run in parallel with the main alternator and would be excited and pick up the load when the main bus voltage fell below a predefined level and would need no pilot input. Im not sure why they show a switch but I included it. My plans are to have one Pmag or a SureFly mag replacement and a traditional mag, so that setup is included. Im sure I missed something and am looking forward to learning even more than I already have. -------- Michael Fleming Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496105#496105 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/z101_n526rm_bandc_reg_467.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ron Burnett <ronburnett(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Battery recharge technique
Date: Apr 29, 2020
I have a battery doctor that I hook up occasionally and had been running som e fuel pump tests. The charging voltage is 14.5 from my Plane Power alternat or. One Oddessy PC680 I replaced during condition inspection in October 2019 and the other is 20 months old. I have over 400 hours using the Bus Manager and 260 hours with the Lycoming 0 360 and EFII system. I will check all my connections. Ron Burnett May you have the Lord's blessings today! Sent from my iPad > On Apr 28, 2020, at 1:08 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroele ctric.com> wrote: > > =EF=BB At 11:01 AM 4/28/2020, you wrote: net> >> >> My RV6A had dual batteries and the Bus Manager system from Protek and a d ual EFII ignition system. >> >> What is the proper order (technique) for hooking a charger up. > > How big a charger is this? i.e. what is the > charge current? Do I presume correctly that > the charger has a 'maintenance' mode and > can be left connected indefinitely? > What is your thinking for using a 'charger' > as opposed to simple battery maintainers? > > The artfully maintained AGM battery has a very > low self-discharge rated. This means that if > you fly at least once every 30 days, the > battery(ies) will be up and ready for > every flight. For long term storage like > over the winter, it's useful to use a > small battery maintainer . . . a small > almost-a-charger that offsets the tiny > self-discharge currents and keeps the > battery topped off. > > The only time you need a CHARGER is when > the battery has been inadvertently depleted and > requires substantial replenishment. In this case, > having a charge rate of 3, 6, or even 10A > will get the battery back on its feet. > >> The charger has three settings the last being AGM for my >> Oddessy PC680s. Such as when to plug charger into the electric, etc. >> >> Also, in a dual system can I charge both batteries by hookup to the >> alternator fat wire and would I still use AGM? > > I'm assuming you are expecting the charger to emulated > a running alternator. To make this work, your system > would have to be powered up with both battery > contactors closed. > > Charging in-situ batteries from outside > the aircraft is best managed by a charging > or 'ground maintenance' connector. Preferably > one for each battery. Of course, these > same connectors would provide a means > for applying battery maintainers for > long term storage. > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems
From: Finn Lassen <finn.lassen(at)verizon.net>
Date: Apr 29, 2020
The ProTek schematic does not specify how the power to ignition switch is supplied. I don't see "Alternator charge isolation for two-battery system." That appears manual - pilot should be able to switch off alternator -- wrong circuit breaker. "In this scenario, the battery does not disconnect but instead blocks the excess current/voltage into the battery." Doesn't make sense. Obviously the cause was the faulty alternator grounding. Secondary cause was wrong circuit breaker (and no OV protection). Possibly wrong wiring of power to ignition switch. Not sure I would want batteries that automatically disconnects. Finn On 4/28/2020 2:39 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > I just became aware of an incident involving > complete loss of power from an electrically > dependent engine that occurred some years ago. > > The accident airplane had a lot in common > with the narrative we have going with Ron. > > I've posted a copy of a narrative at > > https://tinyurl.com/y7xksy6v > > > While this narrative has a lot more data > than most 'dark-n-scarry-nite' stories > in the journals, it is still short of > critical information necessary to > ferret out root cause. > > Fortunately, the pilot walked away. I'll > suggest this is a classic example of a system > that was too complex, would not yield to > a critical FMEA and may have suffered some > deficiencies in craftsmanship. > > I'll let you guys read this thing first and > come up with questions one might ask if > you were on an accident investigation team. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Logo
From: "jdpnm" <jdp3322(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 29, 2020
Looks Good. You might want to move the 'onecction" closer to the "C" Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496132#496132 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 29, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring
>Speaking to B&C today about their standby >alternator had me include their standby >regulator. The wiring of it is per their >drawings. B&C say=99s the standby alternator >wired this way would run in parallel with the >main alternator and would be excited and pick up >the load when the main bus voltage fell below a >predefined level and would need no pilot input. >I=99m not sure why they show a switch but I included it. Yup, that's what it was designed to do. If $cash$ is no object, the system will certainly perform as advertised. I designed it. I suggest that all that automation has no direct benefit with respect to 'saving the day' in the event of main alternator failure. The majority of such systems will never be called upon to perform their intended task. Well maintained alternator up front is going to run TBO on the engine. The Z101 philosophy was, "yeah, I want that capability there and available with just the flip of a switch for the least cost of installation." But it's your choice. >My plans are to have one Pmag or a SureFly mag >replacement and a traditional mag, so that setup is included. What's your proposed fuel delivery system? >I=99m sure I missed something and am looking >forward to learning even more than I already have. If your engine isn't electrically dependent and you want the aux alternator will full compliment of bells/whistles, then Z12 is your best fit. Clearance delivery option comes standard on the E-bus Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 30, 2020
gilles(at)elixir-aircraft wrote: > Found some schematic and installation instructions here: > > ... flyefii.com/media/Bus_Manager_Installation_Instructions.pdf > > -- > Best regards, > Gilles EFII has an updated Bus Manager installation instruction. I have not studied it in detail but I see they eliminated one of the SPOFs in the fuel pump wiring, Dwg 3B. https://www.flyefii.com/media/Bus-Manager-Installation-Instructions-1-6-20.pdf -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360 Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F. john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496142#496142 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems
From: "blues750" <den_beaulieu(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 30, 2020
Great discussion so far...hits close to home as I have a similar configuration on my EAB though I have incorporated OVP and a disconnect from the PMA. Additionally, the two EarthX batteries I have (ETX Hundred Series) are of the more recent BMS design which does not cut off available battery energy to systems, but does limit the charging current to the battery if the battery start receiving too much. I think Mr Kuss brings up a valid point regarding failure of the internal diodes, though both diodes would have to fail to prevent either battery from providing power to the essential bus via the switch. I cannot say that the designer of the Bus Manager failed at making a "safe system" - how robust are the components? Is the design flawed? Obviously, highly interested in the overall discussion. Dave Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496143#496143 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems
From: Gilles Thesee <gilles@elixir-aircraft.com>
Date: Apr 30, 2020
Le 30/04/2020 20:13, blues750 a crit: > I think Mr Kuss brings up a valid point regarding failure of the internal diodes, though both diodes would have to fail to prevent either battery from providing power to the essential bus via the switch. I cannot say that the designer of the Bus Manager failed at making a "safe system" - how robust are the components? Is the design flawed? Hi all, Personnally I would prefer a means of disconnecting the alternator(s) from the ship, and wire the emergency power switch direct from the backup battery. BTW, maybe I'm missing the obvious, but what is the point of having two batteries if they always connect and disconnect together, albeit through some diode array (part-count counts) ? -- Best regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 30, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems
>BTW, maybe I'm missing the obvious, but what is the point of having >two batteries if they always connect and disconnect together, albeit >through some diode array (part-count counts) ? Do ya think? It seems that having two batteries is an admission to lack of confidence in the maintenance of your battery(ies) The top dogs in SVLA batteries produce very consistent products on highly automated production lines. Consistency of performance and mechanical robustness is excellent. The weakest link in a battery's ability to perform is chemistry. They will only 'cycle' so many times. Further, the chemistry can be abused in ways that does not immediately manifest in an observable drop in performance. I would have much more confidence in one, well maintained SVLA battery than in any pair of batteries that don't get replaced until the engine doesn't start. This is the reason for periodic checks for suitability for flight. This means that a battery gets pulled BEFORE it quits cranking the engine but after it fails minimum capacity for battery-only operations. Another problem with the diode bridge -ored- batteries, how do you know if all the diodes are performing as intended? There's no way to preflight all the functions of that box. Integrity of any power steering diode in the Z-figures is pre-flight testable. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Neal George <neal.george(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 30, 2020
Subject: Test
Neal George Sent from my iPhone ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au>
Subject: Re: AEC Logo
Date: May 01, 2020
Could John Tipton please e-mail me directly about the draft AEC logo - thank you! Mailto:stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au V/r Stuart > On 30 Apr 2020, at 7:54 am, jdpnm wrote: > > > Looks Good. You might want to move the 'onecction" closer to the "C" > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496132#496132 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Test
From: Lyle Peterson <lyleap(at)centurylink.net>
Date: Apr 30, 2020
You passed! On 4/30/2020 8:03 PM, Neal George wrote: > > > Neal George > Sent from my iPhone > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 30, 2020
In case folks are not familiar with EFI+I systems I made the attached schematic. "Elec Schem Generic EFI+I 4 Cylinder rev A.pdf" -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360 Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F. john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496150#496150 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/elec_schem_generic_efii_4_cylinder_rev_a_542.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring
From: "MFleming" <sagriver(at)icloud.com>
Date: May 01, 2020
So I took your advice and crafted a Z-12 version. Can some light be shed on the use of shunts as well as a Hall effect sensor? I would like to have the information to my EFIS from each alternator. Do I have this drawn correctly? Also, I was questioned on VAF about the Instrument panel ground bus and Avionics ground bus being tied together with the five 2AWG wires. It was also suggested they could be the same bus. I didn't have a ready answer. -------- Michael Fleming Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496155#496155 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/z_12_n526rm_bandc_reg_variation_2_441.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Best Website Designing Company in Faridabad | Web Designing
From: "jeewangarg" <jeewangarg2017(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 02, 2020
Jeewangarg is a Leading Digital Marketing Company which is helping your brand to cut through the Digital Clutter with its best SEO Company India. Our range of Services includes SEO Services, PPC Services, Website Designing Company in Faridabad and Social Media Marketing Services. Being a Google Partners, we provide our client with 100% satisfaction in every aspect of their marketing goals. We are know as Best PPC Company in Delhi. So, what are you waiting for Connect to the team of best SEO Expert in India, Google Ads Experts, Website Designing Experts, Social Media Experts & more to boost your Digital Presence today with the high quality Digital Marketing Services. https://www.jeewangarg.com/website-designing-development-faridabad.html -------- Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496159#496159 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring
From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net>
Date: May 02, 2020
It may be my brain that is missing the connection, but I don't see the electrical path that feeds bus power to the LR3. The pole called upon to switch bus power goes nowhere. Shouldn't the arc path of pole 5 be connected to terminal 4, replicating pole 2 and terminals 1 & 3? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496162#496162 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 02, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring
At 05:12 PM 5/1/2020, you wrote: > >So I took your advice and crafted a Z-12 version. okay. dump the shunts. run BOTH b-leads trough the one hall effect sensor. >Can some light be shed on the use of shunts as well as a Hall effect sensor? don't need both >I would like to have the information to my EFIS from each >alternator. Do I have this drawn correctly? > >Also, I was questioned on VAF about the Instrument panel ground bus >and Avionics ground bus being tied together with the five 2AWG >wires. It was also suggested they could be the same bus. I didn't >have a ready answer. the 'panel' ground bus is normally on the cabin side of the firewall. I think I'm going to change the name to 'cabin ground bus'. The avionics ground is on the panel, centrally located to electro- whizzies that reside on the panel. Don't need a fuse block for the 'battery bus'. Put the clearance delivery relay right close to the battery contactor. Use a 3a inline fuse to feed the pmag. Getting ready to launch for Enid . . . we live 100 miles from everywhere . . . got some shopping to do. We'll be back tonight. Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jeff Parker <foghorn757(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring
Date: May 02, 2020
I=99d suggest not posting your electrical ideas on VAF. You=99ll get 100 different opinions. Here most folks are on the same sheet of music. These Z figures work and can be modified to meet your goals. Jeff Parker Sent from my iPad > On May 2, 2020, at 12:40, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectr ic.com> wrote: > > =EF=BB At 05:12 PM 5/1/2020, you wrote: >> >> So I took your advice and crafted a Z-12 version. > > okay. dump the shunts. run BOTH b-leads trough > the one hall effect sensor. > >> Can some light be shed on the use of shunts as well as a Hall effect sens or? > > don't need both > >> I would like to have the information to my EFIS from each alternator. Do I have this drawn correctly? >> >> Also, I was questioned on VAF about the Instrument panel ground bus and A vionics ground bus being tied together with the five 2AWG wires. It was also suggested they could be the same bus. I didn't have a ready answer. > > the 'panel' ground bus is normally on the cabin > side of the firewall. I think I'm going to > change the name to 'cabin ground bus'. The avionics > ground is on the panel, centrally located to electro- > whizzies that reside on the panel. > > Don't need a fuse block for the 'battery bus'. Put > the clearance delivery relay right close to the > battery contactor. Use a 3a inline fuse to feed > the pmag. > > Getting ready to launch for Enid . . . we > live 100 miles from everywhere . . . got some > shopping to do. > > We'll be back tonight. > > Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring
From: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
Date: May 02, 2020
jonlaury wrote: > ... I don't see the electrical path that feeds bus power to the LR3. The pole called upon to switch bus power goes nowhere... That's a progressive three-position switch, off, battery contactor on, battery contactor and main alternator on. Ref the paragraph heading "Switches" in Chapter 1, and notes 15 and 22 in Appendix Z of Aeroelectric Connection book. -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360 Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F. john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496167#496167 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: DC clamp meter
From: "blues750" <den_beaulieu(at)yahoo.com>
Date: May 03, 2020
Looking for recommendations on a suitable DC clamp meter to do capacity checks on my EarthX batteries. Prices seem to be all over the place. Am curious what kind others might be having good experience with. Thanks all! Dave Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496171#496171 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: May 03, 2020
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Subject: Re: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring
At 05:12 PM 5/1/2020, you wrote: > >So I took your advice and crafted a Z-12 version. >-------- >Michael Fleming Michael, Did about 200 miles of 'asphalt engineering' yesterday on this thread. Picked up some parts for a friend's welder/generator in Enid. His Chute is electro-hydraulic and he had some cattle to work today I've incorporated some of your input along with musings from the List and my own starry-eyed stare down the highway. https://tinyurl.com/y9n57vlw This drawing needs some notes to explain on some new ideas: Z12 lite could be pretty simple. No optional busses. Dual alternator dependability combined with a dutifully maintained battery would take you far and in confidence. This drawing illustrates and preserves the aux alternator installation as offered by B&C. Depending on proposed accessories and operating modes one might wish to add battery or clearance delivery/endurance busses. Purely optional . . . if you gotta use for one, add it. Question: your drawing shows a fused feeder off the battery to the p-mag. What is the rational for utilizing this source as opposed to simply tying it to the main bus? What is the current draw of this feature on the p-mag? Bob . . . ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Hariharan Gopalan <rdu.hari(at)gmail.com>
Date: May 03, 2020
Subject: Charging two EarthX batteries
I have two earthX batteries and use an external port to connect an optimate TM-291, 5 AMP charger to charge these two batteries. Current setup is to manually connect / disconnect the cable from the port to either battery. The only problem with this approach is that when one battery is charged, I have to manually connect the second battery. Some kind of a voltage sensing relay to switch out the first battery and and connect the charger output to the second battery would be an ideal solution. Wonder if anyone has any tips? I looked at some dual battery chargers, but not sure how these would work with the optimate charger and earthX batteries. Thanks


April 14, 2020 - May 03, 2020

AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-pj