AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-pk
May 03, 2020 - June 07, 2020
Hari
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DC clamp meter |
At 10:20 AM 5/3/2020, you wrote:
>
>Looking for recommendations on a suitable DC clamp meter to do capacity
>checks on my EarthX batteries. Prices seem to be all over the place.
>Am curious what kind others might be having good experience with. Thanks all!
>
>Dave
Help us out with your mission. A 'capacity test' is
a measured depletion and recharge of a battery
to deduce its contained energy.
This could be accomplished at a prescribed discharge
rate commensurate with your anticipated 'endurance
loads' (useful capacity of a battery varies with
load).
In the attached chart you can see how a battery
rated at 18Ah under a 20Hr discharge rate
delivers only 12Ah if discharge over 1Hr rate.
2/3rds of its capacity is tossed off as internal
heating of the battery.
To accomplish a capacity test, you need a means
for establishing a constant current load at
some selected rate while recording the battery's
output voltage until it falls below some
artfully selected cut-off voltage.
Alternatively, consider a device like
this:
https://tinyurl.com/moaoaus
I have used these on numerous projects
over the years. I'm thinking of upgrading
my 20+ year old device. The newer ones
have some really nice software features.
I'm wondering if you're interested in the
battery's cranking (load bearing) characteristics.
This is a different test that quantifies the
battery's internal resistance -and- state of
the chemistry under heavy load.
For this you need a critter like this
https://tinyurl.com/yag4529y
I have a couple of these HF testers . . .
got a $high$ AutoMeter tester too but
the el-cheeso works just fine for our
purposes.
You hook this to your battery under test.
Just before you crank up the load such that
battery voltage falls to 9V, push the 15
second timer button. Adjust load
during the 15 second interval
to maintain 9V reading. Take note of
the CURRENT delivered by the battery
at the end of 15 seconds.
Acquire this benchmark value for a new
battery. Note the value with a sharpie
on the battery case along with date.
At any later time, should the battery
perform to less than 80% (*) of new,
consider replacing the battery. Same
thing goes with capacity checks 80%
is the 'retirement' value for
batteries in TC, flight-for-hire aircraft.
(*) Of course, you CAN establish your own
benchmarks if some other numbers make
more sense for how you operate your airplane.
But pick other numbers based on understanding,
not because your trying to squeeze more
service out of the battery.
EARTHX batteries (and all other LIFePO4
batteries) are special cases. Your load
test value will probably be more than
9V . . . internal resistance of these
batteries is very low and you probably
can't load it down to 9v without
tripping internal current limits.
If you want to capcheck your EARTHX,
fire up your airplane's anticipated
endurance mode accessories and measure
the time before auto-disconnect. Make
note of that time for the new battery.
Think about replacing the battery when
those minutes fall by 25% or so.
As for DC clamp-on ammeters, they've
been around for some time. I have
a Fluke meter I bought about 20 years
ago . . . hall-effect device . . . works
mostly okay for large measurements
(10+ amps) but flakiness typical of
contemporary technology at low current
levels.
I have one like this
https://tinyurl.com/y9gb4cgs
. . . but haven't had much occasion to
exercise it's capability. It has a
ZERO read function on DC amps that
wipes out most of the variability
in the hall-sensor at low current
readings. Seems to work well. Will follow
up when I've learned more . . . but
the price/performance numbers are
certainly attractive.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Charging two EarthX batteries |
At 08:09 PM 5/3/2020, you wrote:
>I have two earthX batteries and use an external
>port to connect an optimate TM-291, 5 AMP
>charger to charge these two batteries. Current
>setup is to manually connect / disconnect the
>cable from the port to either battery.=C2 The
>only problem with this approach is that when one
>battery is charged, I have to manually connect
>the second battery. Some kind of a voltage
>sensing relay to switch out the first battery
>and and connect the charger output=C2 to the
>second battery would be an ideal solution.
>
>Wonder if anyone has any tips? I looked at some
>dual battery chargers, but not sure how these
>would work with the optimate charger and earthX batteries.
>
>Thanks
>Hari
Why do you need to 'charge' these batteries?
How often do you fly. How long is your
longest storage interval?
There is 'tribal knowledge' that suggests
a benefit for hooking 'shore power'
to the battery(ies) in a parked airplane. But unlike
the flooded battery in your grandpa's '54, 6v Pontiac,
modern SVLA and LiFePo batteries have very low self-discharge
rates.
Unless you're storing the airplane for a long
period of time, shore power connection
isn't really useful . . . and if the charger
is poorly designed for such service . . . it
may be detrimental to the service life of the
battery.
What does EarthX recommend for battery maintenance
during various intervals of inactivity?
Here's a data-dump on the topic of self-discharge
in batteries . . . along with a wealth of other
battery info.
https://tinyurl.com/yczco6vp
If you're going to store for a long time and especially
if ambient temps are high, consider removing the battery(ies)
for storage under your bed . . . or some other environmentally
friendly space.
Otherwise, your batteries should live and perform
well with no external attention. You do need a charger
in case of inadvertent depletion of the battery(ies) . . .
in which case, I would charge them independently
before flight.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Bussmann fuse block firewall forward |
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Bob,
Question... the Bussmann 15600 series fuseblocks that B&C sells... are they suitable
for mounting on the forward side of the firewall on a tractor airplane like
an RV? I'm wondering about environmental exposure... temperature, vibration,
moisture, fluids, dirt.
Thanks
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496184#496184
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Hariharan Gopalan <rdu.hari(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Charging two EarthX batteries |
Bang on Bob! I was over thinking in the wrong direction and not enough in
the right direction! =F0=9F=99=8F=F0=9F=99=82
On Sun, May 3, 2020, 10:50 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 08:09 PM 5/3/2020, you wrote:
>
> I have two earthX batteries and use an external port to connect an
> optimate TM-291, 5 AMP charger to charge these two batteries. Current set
up
> is to manually connect / disconnect the cable from the port to either
> battery.=C3=82 The only problem with this approach is that when one batt
ery is
> charged, I have to manually connect the second battery. Some kind of a
> voltage sensing relay to switch out the first battery and and connect the
> charger output=C3=82 to the second battery would be an ideal solution.
>
> Wonder if anyone has any tips? I looked at some dual battery chargers, bu
t
> not sure how these would work with the optimate charger and earthX
> batteries.
>
> Thanks
> Hari
>
>
> Why do you need to 'charge' these batteries?
> How often do you fly. How long is your
> longest storage interval?
>
> There is 'tribal knowledge' that suggests
> a benefit for hooking 'shore power'
> to the battery(ies) in a parked airplane. But unlike
> the flooded battery in your grandpa's '54, 6v Pontiac,
> modern SVLA and LiFePo batteries have very low self-discharge
> rates.
>
> Unless you're storing the airplane for a long
> period of time, shore power connection
> isn't really useful . . . and if the charger
> is poorly designed for such service . . . it
> may be detrimental to the service life of the
> battery.
>
> What does EarthX recommend for battery maintenance
> during various intervals of inactivity?
>
> Here's a data-dump on the topic of self-discharge
> in batteries . . . along with a wealth of other
> battery info.
>
> https://tinyurl.com/yczco6vp
>
> If you're going to store for a long time and especially
> if ambient temps are high, consider removing the battery(ies)
> for storage under your bed . . . or some other environmentally
> friendly space.
>
> Otherwise, your batteries should live and perform
> well with no external attention. You do need a charger
> in case of inadvertent depletion of the battery(ies) . . .
> in which case, I would charge them independently
> before flight.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bussmann fuse block firewall forward |
At 07:08 AM 5/4/2020, you wrote:
>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>Question... the Bussmann 15600 series fuseblocks that B&C sells...
>are they suitable for mounting on the forward side of the firewall
>on a tractor airplane like an RV? I'm wondering about environmental
>exposure... temperature, vibration, moisture, fluids, dirt.
Yes, those live nicely on the firewall.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DC clamp meter |
| From: | "blues750" <den_beaulieu(at)yahoo.com> |
"Help us out with your mission."
Hi Bob, I simply want to put a typical inflight load on the fuly charged battery
and perform the below method /test as my benchmark for battery capacity check
and/or replacement. When at 80% of the benchmark, replace battery. I was going
to use old style truck headlight bulbs for a resistive load. Cranking capacity
is not a significant concern for my style of flying operation... (famous
last words?)
>From the Earth FAQ's listing...
Test Method #2 (with timer and DC current meter):
a. Fully charge the battery with an appropriate charger.
b. Turn on all electrical loads and start a timer. The same load must be used in
subsequent years for accuracy.
c. Measure and record the batterys discharge amps using a DC clamp-on current meter
at the positive terminal of the battery.
d. Using the measured amps in the previous step and the batterys nameplate rated
capacity (in Ah), calculate the time to discharge the battery to 80%.
Time to Discharge 80% (Hours)=Rated Capacity in Ah * .8Measured Discharge Amps
For Example (16 Ah Rated Capacity, 5 amp measured discharge rate)
Time to Discharge 80%=16 Ah * .85= 2.56 hours
e. Terminate the test after the number of hours calculated in the previous step
has expired or if the battery is over-discharged (shuts off discharge current).
If the battery is still supplying power at the termination of the test, then
the batterys capacity is greater than 80%. If the batterys capacity is greater
than 80% of it rated or capable of supporting the aircrafts emergency load
for the required amount of time, then the battery has passed the test.
f. Fully charge the battery with an appropriate charger.[/i]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496188#496188
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Batt and Alternator Switch |
I have a Z16 with a rotax 914. I have two separate switches for Bat and
Alt.
The other day in turbulence while reaching for my GPS a bump caused me to
switch off the BAT while leaving the ALT on. I noticed and
quickly switched the BAT back on.
My interim solution is to make a switch guard.
However I remember reading the that the way to avoid this is to have and
OFF ON ON switch.
Can someone suggest the appropriate switch please.
thanks
Will
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+1 786 878 0246
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Batt and Alternator Switch |
At 02:00 PM 5/4/2020, you wrote:
>I have a Z16 with a rotax 914.=C2 I have two
>separate=C2 switches for Bat and Alt.
>
>The other day in turbulence while reaching for
>my GPS a bump caused me to switch off the BAT
>while leaving the ALT on.=C2 I noticed and
>quickly=C2 switched the BAT back on.=C2 =C2
>
>My interim=C2 solution is to make a switch guard.
>
>However I remember reading the that the way to
>avoid this is to have and OFF ON ON switch.=C2 =C2
>
>Can someone suggest the appropriate switch please.
>
>thanks
>
>Will
>
>William Daniell
>LONGPORT
>+1 786 878 0246
The switch depicted on Z16 does just that.
It's a progressive transfer, Two-pole, Three-position,
switch. Available from many sources under various
part numbers, you can get one with fast-on tabs
from B&C as S700-2-20.
https://tinyurl.com/y7ay7lvj
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Batt and Alternator Switch |
thanks
Will
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+1 786 878 0246
On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 4:06 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 02:00 PM 5/4/2020, you wrote:
>
> I have a Z16 with a rotax 914.=C3=82 I have two separate=C3=82 switches
for Bat and
> Alt.
>
> The other day in turbulence while reaching for my GPS a bump caused me to
> switch off the BAT while leaving the ALT on.=C3=82 I noticed and quickly
=C3=82
> switched the BAT back on.=C3=82 =C3=82
>
> My interim=C3=82 solution is to make a switch guard.
>
> However I remember reading the that the way to avoid this is to have and
> OFF ON ON switch.=C3=82 =C3=82
>
> Can someone suggest the appropriate switch please.
>
> thanks
>
> Will
>
> William Daniell
> LONGPORT
> +1 786 878 0246
>
>
> The switch depicted on Z16 does just that.
> It's a progressive transfer, Two-pole, Three-position,
> switch. Available from many sources under various
> part numbers, you can get one with fast-on tabs
> from B&C as S700-2-20.
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y7ay7lvj
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring |
| From: | "MFleming" <sagriver(at)icloud.com> |
Bob,
Well I though we were isolated living in Alaska back in the day but southern Kansas
looks pretty far from welder parts ;- )
I was visiting Oklahoma City, Bartlesville, Fort Smith and Independence last fall...lots
of driving.
Thank you for spending time thinking about this little venture of mine. Unfortunately
the link takes me to the AeroElectric Connection page but no file. Looked
in the .pdf folder but no luck.
Not sure of the Pmag current draw but the manual says to use a 3amp pull-able breaker.
To be honest, the depiction of the fused feeder was just copied from Z-12.
I was thinking if things really went bad with the contacter open and a mag
dead the Pmag would still be operating.
Looking forward to seeing the drawing.
-M
--------
Michael Fleming
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496198#496198
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring |
At 03:54 PM 5/4/2020, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>
>Well I though we were isolated living in Alaska back
>in the day but southern Kansas looks pretty far from
>welder parts ;- )
Actually, his problem was with compatibility
of an extension cord that was going to run
from his Welder/GenSet to the pump on the
chute. Needed a somewhat rare 50A-4Wire
plug. But even the smallest necessity can
hold up a expensive operation! On
several occasions I've made trips to metropolitan
supply sources for relatively trivial items
that would hold a $1000/day cattle operation hostage!
>Thank you for spending time thinking about this little venture of mine.
>Unfortunately the link takes me to the AeroElectric Connection page but
>no file. Looked in the .pdf folder but no luck.
Sorry 'bout that. I had posted the wrong file so
even if the link was good, the resulting
download was not. Here's a better shot at
it.
https://tinyurl.com/ydbc5xqt
>Not sure of the Pmag current draw but the manual says to use a 3amp pull-able
>breaker. To be honest, the depiction of the fused feeder was just copied
>from Z-12. I was thinking if things really went bad with the contacter
>open and a mag dead the Pmag would still be operating.
We're talking about a P-Mag, not an E-Mag . . . right?
P-mags have built in alternators. As I recall, the battery
assist was to support cranking and hand-propping
the airplane.
Haven't talked with those guys in a long time. I'll
call down there tomorrow and get my knowledge nugget
updated.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John M Tipton <john(at)tipton.me.uk> |
| Subject: | Re: Batt and Alternator Switch |
eBay item: UK listing - 163671102668
Sent from my iPad
----x--O--x----
> On 4 May 2020, at 9:18 pm, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelect
ric.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB At 02:00 PM 5/4/2020, you wrote:
>> I have a Z16 with a rotax 914.=C3=82 I have two separate=C3=82 switches f
or Bat and Alt.
>>
>> The other day in turbulence while reaching for my GPS a bump caused me to
switch off the BAT while leaving the ALT on.=C3=82 I noticed and quickly=C3
=82 switched the BAT back on.=C3=82 =C3=82
>>
>> My interim=C3=82 solution is to make a switch guard.
>>
>> However I remember reading the that the way to avoid this is to have and O
FF ON ON switch.=C3=82 =C3=82
>>
>> Can someone suggest the appropriate switch please.
>>
>> thanks
>>
>> Will
>>
>> William Daniell
>> LONGPORT
>> +1 786 878 0246
>
> The switch depicted on Z16 does just that.
> It's a progressive transfer, Two-pole, Three-position,
> switch. Available from many sources under various
> part numbers, you can get one with fast-on tabs
> from B&C as S700-2-20.
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y7ay7lvj
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems |
| From: | "bcone1381" <bcone1964(at)gmail.com> |
[/quote]My 1st question is whether that alternator ground wire was the only connection
between the engine and the airframe, as seems likely.
Charlie[/quote]
Throttle, mixture and prop cables will ground an engine. Its a mystery what other
grounds existed.
--------
Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496205#496205
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems |
At 08:06 AM 5/5/2020, you wrote:
>
>[/quote]My 1st question is whether that
>alternator ground wire was the only connection
>between the engine and the airframe, as seems likely.
>
>
>Charlie=C2 [/quote]
>
>Throttle, mixture and prop cables will ground an
>engine. Its a mystery what other grounds existed.
Yes . . . sort of . . . all those conductors
are steel, long and terminate on various
and widely separated mountings designed
for mechanical integrity, not electrical
conductivity.
It is not uncommon for those 'ground paths'
to suffer serious overheat events during
engine cranking when a mechanic inadvertently
fails to replace the crankcase-to-firewall
bond strap during maintenance. This very
event occurred on one of my rental airplanes
back about 1990 but it was double grounded
p-lead shields that smoked. This is why
the z-figures show p-lead termination that
is contrary to some legacy practice.
A ground lead to an alternator case is
not common practice. The crankcase-to-
firewall ground strap is generally 2AWG
equivalent or better and seeks good
electrical conductivity at locations
suited to that service.
We don't know where the other end of
the illustrated ground lead was terminated,
nor do we know if it was in addition to
another ground path. The overheating
observed in the picture does suggest
that the ground system on that engine
was inadequate by design or compromised
by error.
I'm hoping to get back to our hip-pocket
accident analysis but as participants
will note, there are more questions
than answers. Lacking a good schematic
for how the airplane was wired, we'll
never know how an engine became electrically
starved (assuming that's true) while
a data acquisition system RECORDED
the presence of voltage in the system.
This wasn't an electrical 'black out' . . .
The alternator output went to zero
but again, we're not privy to all the
hardware between the alternator and
the bus . . . the breaker was not open
so something caused the alternator
output to zero with what appears to
be simultaneous engine failure.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DC clamp meter |
At 12:12 PM 5/4/2020, you wrote:
>
>"Help us out with your mission."
>
>Hi Bob, I simply want to put a typical inflight
>load on the fuly charged battery and perform the
>below method /test as my benchmark for battery
>capacity check and/or replacement. When at 80%
>of the benchmark, replace battery. I was going
>to use old style truck headlight bulbs for a
>resistive load. Cranking capacity is not a
>significant concern for my style of flying operation... (famous last
words?)
>
> >From the Earth FAQ's listing...
>
>Test Method #2 (with timer and DC current meter):
>
>a. Fully charge the battery with an appropriate charger.
>
>b. Turn on all electrical loads and start a
>timer. The same load must be used in subsequent years for accuracy.
>
>c. Measure and record the battery=99s discharge
>amps using a DC clamp-on current meter at the positive terminal of the
battery.
>
>d. Using the measured amps in the previous step
>and the battery=99s nameplate rated capacity (in
>Ah), calculate the time to discharge the battery to 80%.
>
>Time to Discharge 80% (Hours)=Rated Capacity in Ah * .8Measured Discharge
Amps
>
>For Example (16 Ah Rated Capacity, 5 amp measured discharge rate)
>
>Time to Discharge 80%=16 Ah * .85= 2.56 hours
If one is going to test the battery in-situ, i.e.
on the airplane with plan-b endurance loads running,
then the exact current demand is somewhat irrelevant
to the test. Just time the interval until electro-
whizzies shut down. That time represents the present
capacity-at-plan-b-load. You can do that with a
new battery to benchmark T1. The replacement
milestone would be at T0.80 of the as-new value.
You should measure or accurately calculate plan-b
loads to (1) predict plan-b endurance based on
battery specifications and (2) verify the battery's
capabilities at the time of your benchmark
test on a new battery.
You can easily measure plan-b loads by inserting
an ammeter in series with your battery lead and
turning on the plan-b compliment of electro-
whizzies. This is a good thing to do to verify
your load analysis values.
>e. Terminate the test after the number of hours
>calculated in the previous step has expired or
>if the battery is over-discharged (shuts off
>discharge current). If the battery is still
>supplying power at the termination of the test,
>then the battery=99s capacity is greater than
>80%. If the battery=99s capacity is greater than
>80% of it rated or capable of supporting the
>aircraft=99s emergency load for the required
>amount of time, then the battery has passed the test.
>
>f. Fully charge the battery with an appropriate charger.[/i]
The Earth-X testing is okay but I think
overly complicated. YOUR primary interest
as the guy sitting in the left seat is
"how long will the panel stay lit up"?
Doing the in-situ test tells you what the
battery will do right now. The 80% value
is a somewhat arbitrary number established
by convention and experience with rechargeable
batteries (when a battery drops to 80% of
as new capacity, it's on the down-hill-slide
toward useless).
Your multimeter probably has a 10 amp DC
current measurement capability that can be
used to quantify your real, plan-b loads.
You don't need to buy a special instrument
for this measurement.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | N88MV Accident Analysis |
Another interesting data point.
This flight didn't last very long. Further,
the DAS system reported only a short interval
of abnormal bus voltage before the
alternator output went to zero.
The narrative says the pilot 'noticed the
batteries overheating'. I wonder how
this was observed. Bad smell? Melting
plastic? Smoke?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: N88MV Accident Analysis |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 5/5/2020 12:17 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
> Another interesting data point.
>
> This flight didn't last very long. Further,
> the DAS system reported only a short interval
> of abnormal bus voltage before the
> alternator output went to zero.
>
> The narrative says the pilot 'noticed the
> batteries overheating'. I wonder how
> this was observed. Bad smell? Melting
> plastic? Smoke?
Stock battery location in the RV6 is adjacent to the pilot's right foot
(passenger's left foot), almost touching the firewall. Mine has an
aluminum cover, but it's simple to just use a hold-down strap.
From the Katheryn's Report:
"At an altitude of about 4,000 ft, the pilot noticed that the airplane
batteries, located in the cockpit near his right foot, were getting hot. "
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: N88MV Accident Analysis |
> From the Katheryn's Report:
>"At an altitude of about 4,000 ft, the pilot noticed that the
>airplane batteries, located in the cockpit near his right foot, were
>getting hot. "
>
>Charlie
Yeah, that's what I'm referring to. Suppose you're
flying along fat and sassy . . . and you 'notice'
that your batteries are getting hot. How
would that come to your attention?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: N88MV Accident Analysis |
On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 4:30 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> From the Katheryn's Report:
> "At an altitude of about 4,000 ft, the pilot noticed that the airplane
> batteries, located in the cockpit near his right foot, were getting hot. "
>
> Charlie
>
>
> Yeah, that's what I'm referring to. Suppose you're
> flying along fat and sassy . . . and you 'notice'
> that your batteries are getting hot. How
> would that come to your attention?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
The battery is within a couple of inches of the pilot's right foot; he
might even have his foot resting against if if he's taken his feet off the
pedals & slid them forward with a bit of 'man spreading'. If it got truly
'hot' (unquantified), it's not much of a stretch to believe he felt it with
his foot.
Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: N88MV Accident Analysis |
Your shoe melts?
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 5, 2020, at 6:44 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>
>
>
>> On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 4:30 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aero
electric.com> wrote:
>>> =46rom the Katheryn's Report:
>>> "At an altitude of about 4,000 ft, the pilot noticed that the airplane b
atteries, located in the cockpit near his right foot, were getting hot. "
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>
>> Yeah, that's what I'm referring to. Suppose you're
>> flying along fat and sassy . . . and you 'notice'
>> that your batteries are getting hot. How
>> would that come to your attention?
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
> The battery is within a couple of inches of the pilot's right foot; he mig
ht even have his foot resting against if if he's taken his feet off the peda
ls & slid them forward with a bit of 'man spreading'. If it got truly 'hot'
(unquantified), it's not much of a stretch to believe he felt it with his f
oot.
>
> Charlie
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 5/5/2020 10:51 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 08:06 AM 5/5/2020, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> [/quote]My 1st question is whether that alternator ground wire was
>> the only connection between the engine and the airframe, as seems likely.
>>
>>
>> Charlie [/quote]
>>
>> Throttle, mixture and prop cables will ground an engine. Its a
>> mystery what other grounds existed.
>
> Yes . . . sort of . . . all those conductors
> are steel, long and terminate on various
> and widely separated mountings designed
> for mechanical integrity, not electrical
> conductivity.
>
> It is not uncommon for those 'ground paths'
> to suffer serious overheat events during
> engine cranking when a mechanic inadvertently
> fails to replace the crankcase-to-firewall
> bond strap during maintenance. This very
> event occurred on one of my rental airplanes
> back about 1990 but it was double grounded
> p-lead shields that smoked. This is why
> the z-figures show p-lead termination that
> is contrary to some legacy practice.
>
> A ground lead to an alternator case is
> not common practice. The crankcase-to-
> firewall ground strap is generally 2AWG
> equivalent or better and seeks good
> electrical conductivity at locations
> suited to that service.
>
> We don't know where the other end of
> the illustrated ground lead was terminated,
> nor do we know if it was in addition to
> another ground path. The overheating
> observed in the picture does suggest
> that the ground system on that engine
> was inadequate by design or compromised
> by error.
>
> I'm hoping to get back to our hip-pocket
> accident analysis but as participants
> will note, there are more questions
> than answers. Lacking a good schematic
> for how the airplane was wired, we'll
> never know how an engine became electrically
> starved (assuming that's true) while
> a data acquisition system RECORDED
> the presence of voltage in the system.
>
> This wasn't an electrical 'black out' . . .
>
> The alternator output went to zero
> but again, we're not privy to all the
> hardware between the alternator and
> the bus . . . the breaker was not open
> so something caused the alternator
> output to zero with what appears to
> be simultaneous engine failure.
>
> Bob . . .
>
To the 'control cables will ground the engine': In the early 1970s, I
bought a brand new Fiat 128; the 1st commonly available front wheel
drive econobox in the USA. At some point, the dealership had to do some
work on it, and when I got it back, it would intermittently fail to
'turn over' well, as if the battery was going bad. I eventually quit
driving it, having purchased a 124 (a lot more fun). When a potential
buyer showed interest in it, I tried to get it running with a new
battery mounted, and with the hood up, I noticed smoke under the hood
while the starter was trying to turn. The car had a cable actuated
clutch, and the clutch cable was trying to go up in smoke. Looked under
the car, and the engine's ground strap was hanging loose on one end.
If the discoloration in the 'alternator ground' terminal really is due
to poor termination-induced resistance heating, that's a strong
indicator (to me, anyway) that it was the only ground *wire* connecting
the engine to the airframe. I'd expect a properly sized ground wire
attached anywhere else on the engine to carry effectively all the
current, with the high resistance 'alternator ground' being ignored by
the a/c.
The narrative of the engine shutting down *when the voltage climbed* but
the rest of the a/c continued to see battery voltage after the
alternator shut down really is....interesting.
The investigation does seem very typical of NTSB/FAA handling of
experimental a/c incidents/accidents. The never have staff experienced
with homebuilts (especially 'alternative' configurations), and very
rarely even make an attempt to find competent, knowledgeable
consultants. There's also rarely an *objective* opinion sought. They
frequently call on the mfgr of the device, a/c, etc that's in question
for failure analysis. If I built the widget, am I likely to take
responsibility for its failure in an accident?
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Super-whizzy energy management systems |
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
Would/could the loose alternator/engine ground wire fool the regulator into raising
the field current?
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496222#496222
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | OV push to test button, is there a hack for SB1B |
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Bob,
Seems like a nice feature that SB1B has an annunciatior light that it has come
online but unlike LR3C there is not an OV PTT... is there a way to hack into SB1B
for an OV PTT button?
Thanks
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496223#496223
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: N88MV accident analysis |
At 08:01 PM 5/5/2020, you wrote:
>
>
>Would/could the loose alternator/engine ground wire fool the
>regulator into raising the field current?
No. The built in regulator usually senses alternator
output voltage between b-terminal and alternator
case ground. The the DAS recorded voltage rise
suggests that while the alternator ground was
of poor integrity, it was still carrying a substantial
amount of current else the crank-case would have gone
negative as opposed to the observed rise in
bus voltage.
Hmmm . . . the crankcase had to be operating
at some point below ground if the ground-lead
crip was failing electrically. The various
control cable-grounds would have taken on
some of the engine ground duties too.
We are not told if this alternator was
fitted with a control input port under
crew control. The narrative speaks to
a brief attempt to restore power without
explaining what action was taken.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OV push to test button, is there a hack for SB1B |
At 08:07 PM 5/5/2020, you wrote:
>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>Seems like a nice feature that SB1B has an annunciatior light that it has
>come online but unlike LR3C there is not an OV PTT... is there a way to
>hack into SB1B for an OV PTT button?
That feature was included in the first iterations
of the LR series regulators but never 'implemented'
in the installation instructions. I seem to recall
the recommendation was that it be manually checked
at intervals . . . like oil changes or annuals.
The ov protection system in all B&C (and AEC)
products are 'passive monitors'. They experience
miniscul operational stresses. Hence, under mil-hndbk-217
reliability studies, the device suffers no practical
service life limits.
It was decided that periodic ptt or 'live'
verification of functionality was more than
sufficient for continued airworthiness. If
you never tested the thing, you risk for
failure to perform is exceedingly low.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OV push to test button, is there a hack for |
SB1B
> If you never tested the thing, you risk for
> failure to perform is exceedingly low.
A follow up: I've worked on dozens of
TC aircraft. I forget how many products
I've designed and qualified into OV
management systems. Not one has ever
included or required a press-to-test
feature.
The very first OV management module I designed
went into the single engine Cessnas back
in the 70's. This was a three-wire potted
assembly that was ultimately manufactured
by the tens of thousands. Worked good, lasted
a long time.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OV push to test button, is there a hack for SB1B |
Bob, you say "they worked good and lasted a long time." What was the
eventual failure mode? How did one know when they did fail?
On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 12:42 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> If you never tested the thing, you risk for
> failure to perform is exceedingly low.
>
>
> A follow up: I've worked on dozens of
> TC aircraft. I forget how many products
> I've designed and qualified into OV
> management systems. Not one has ever
> included or required a press-to-test
> feature.
>
> The very first OV management module I designed
> went into the single engine Cessnas back
> in the 70's. This was a three-wire potted
> assembly that was ultimately manufactured
> by the tens of thousands. Worked good, lasted
> a long time.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: OV push to test button, is there a hack for SB1B |
At 05:00 PM 5/6/2020, you wrote:
>Bob, you say "they worked good and lasted a long time." What was the
>eventual failure mode? How did one know when they did fail?
Good question. I know there were spares
stocked and shipped over the years but
I'm not privy to the failure modes.
I do know that they were vulnerable
to shorts on the output lead which
would cause them to open up.
Did a quick search on
cessna single engine over voltage
Didn't find any postings on failures
Did find this service bulletin from
1972 that added an external capacitor
to preclude nuisance trips.
https://tinyurl.com/ybojxucx
That was the first ov protection system
ever installed on the Pawnee Plant
Cessnas. The term "over voltage"
was not a well quantified event
in terms of cause, effect and timing.
The protocol then was to shut down
'quickly' i.e. in 50 to 100 mS after
detection of a condition. The
circuitry was a bit sensitive to
otherwise normal transients on the bus.
Nowadays, the static trip points are
generally lower (16v) which must
sustain for 500 milliseconds or so.
If the transient ends before time-out,
the timer resets.
This protocol is still well inside
qualification test limits (20v for 1
second; 40v for 100 mS) and virtually
trip-free.
I was well out of the loop on that
line of aircraft after about 1975
so I have no first-hand knowledge
of any failure modes.
Installation instructions for the CBOVM
module I used to sell describes
a recommended yearly test for functionality.
https://tinyurl.com/ybojxucx
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | OV module testing (Correction) |
> Installation instructions for the CBOVM
> module I used to sell describes
> a recommended yearly test for functionality.
LINK CORRECTION
> https://tinyurl.com/joeopsn
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DC clamp meter |
| From: | "blues750" <den_beaulieu(at)yahoo.com> |
Bob, I cannot imagine how to go about doing the voltmeter method with an electrical
dependent engine running...hence my plan...
Once batteries are charged my normal inflight electrical load is approx 20 amps
when not using pitot heat. This is consistent with my predicted load analysis.
I have a dual ECU electrically dependent engine which requires approx 13 amps
to keep me flying (derived from the engine manufacturer's chart). By shutting
down one ECU and a few other items I can safely continue flight and recover
to an airfield or suitable airstrip (day VMC) with about the same electrical
load of 13 amps.
My plan was to test each battery separately with a 15 amp load (hence the need
for a DC clamp meter) and see how long I got energy from the battery before the
voltages dropped off below 10V (ECU/engine quitting time) or the EarthX BMS
shuts down due to over discharge. As I've already got a few flying seasons on
the batteries, I can only compare my discharge amp-hrs to the battery specs and
then use the 80% factor for battery changeout.
Does this sound like a reasonable way to do a meaningful capacity check? It does
to me, but what the heck may I be missing? Seems like the hardest thing to
do will be rigging up the resistive dummy load (open for ideas) so I can consistently
do the load test per battery year to year.
Thanks again for the insight and ideas!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496241#496241
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DC clamp meter |
Le 07/05/2020 03:17, blues750 a crit:
>
> Bob, I cannot imagine how to go about doing the voltmeter method with an electrical
dependent engine running...hence my plan...
>
> Once batteries are charged my normal inflight electrical load is approx 20 amps
when not using pitot heat. This is consistent with my predicted load analysis.
I have a dual ECU electrically dependent engine which requires approx 13 amps
to keep me flying (derived from the engine manufacturer's chart).
Performing actual voltage and current measurements at cruise power would
be interesting.
It can safely be done on the ground.
FWIW,
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: MANL's (current limiters) |
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
FYI MIDIs from Littlefuse... formerly smallest was 30A... now smallest is 23A.
https://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/automotive/datasheets/fuses/passenger-car-and-commercial-vehicle/bolt-down-fuses/littelfuse_midi_datasheet.pdf
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496245#496245
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DC clamp meter |
>Does this sound like a reasonable way to do a meaningful capacity
>check? It does to me, but what the heck may I be missing? Seems
>like the hardest thing to do will be rigging up the resistive dummy
>load (open for ideas) so I can consistently do the load test per
>battery year to year.\
Okay, got a tighter box around your goal. Probably
doesn't need to be that complicated. You know your
endurance loads to a reasonable degree of accuracy.
The really cool thing about Li batteries is their
very FLAT discharge curve as a consequence of low
internal resistance. This means that energy delivered
to the terminals is relatively constant irrespective
of load. So consider getting some of these.
https://tinyurl.com/ydg62u2r
an order of 5 pcs is about 8 bux delivered to your
door. Mount 4 of these to a chunk of aluminum say
6 x 6 inches or so. .06 or more thick. Space them
out over the surface. Hook all four in parallel
to make a robust, 1.0 ohm resistor.
This resistor connected to one of your batteries
will discharge right at 12.5 amps. Time the interval
to discharge limit with this load.
Since you have quite a bit of time on these
batteries, you don't have an as-new benchmark
but you now have as-is benchmark.
Maybe the a.h. number isn't really that
useful. Rather, it's time to trip
the discharge limiter. That's pretty close
to your as-is endurance value. When
that number is below design goals, change
the battery.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DC clamp meter |
| From: | "racerjerry" <gnking2(at)verizon.net> |
20 BUCKS WHADDAYA THINK?
https://www.harborfreight.com/automotive/battery-tools-accessories/100a-612v-battery-load-tester-61747.html
If discharge rate is too high for your application, my low budget method for current
limiting has always been either an ignition coil resistor from an old car
or a group of incandescent light bulbs in parallel (adjustable).
Jerry King
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496263#496263
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Rotax/Ducati alternator webpage |
Hi all,
Reviewing some - not so - old messages on the 'List, I got the notion
that the Rotax alternator is still a relevant topic.
So I took the opportunity of the lockdown for crafting a webpage on the
study performed some years ago in the University of Grenoble labs.
The goal is to provide an easier an hopefully more pleasant reading as
compared with the different copies that have been "circulated" here and
there on the Web.
http://contrails.free.fr/elec_alt_rotax.php
If would be delighted if some of you guys took a look at it and tell me
whether an English ('Frenglish' ?) version is worth the effort.
Providing a readable and accurate English document is beyond my
abilities, so if need be some "Native speaker improved google" version
will be most welcome ;-)
Thanks,
Take care everyone,
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax/Ducati alternator webpage |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 5/10/2020 11:57 AM, Gilles Thesee wrote:
> <gilles@elixir-aircraft.com>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Reviewing some - not so - old messages on the 'List, I got the notion
> that the Rotax alternator is still a relevant topic.
>
> So I took the opportunity of the lockdown for crafting a webpage on
> the study performed some years ago in the University of Grenoble labs.
>
> The goal is to provide an easier an hopefully more pleasant reading as
> compared with the different copies that have been "circulated" here
> and there on the Web.
>
> http://contrails.free.fr/elec_alt_rotax.php
>
>
> If would be delighted if some of you guys took a look at it and tell
> me whether an English ('Frenglish' ?) version is worth the effort.
>
> Providing a readable and accurate English document is beyond my
> abilities, so if need be some "Native speaker improved google" version
> will be most welcome ;-)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Take care everyone,
>
>
Hi Giles,
I'm always interested in 'data'; thanks for putting it up. I took a
quick look using Chrome, and let Google translate from French to
English. The only unusual term I noticed during a quick scan was
'straighten' where 'rectify' would be used in English.
It is therefore necessary both to*straighten*its AC voltage to transform
it into DC voltage, to*smooth it*to obtain a constant voltage, and
to*regulate it*around 14 Volts.
And:
*NB:*The frequency is used to determine the rotation speed.
200 Hz with 5 pairs of poles corresponds to 40 rpm, i.e. 2400 rpm.
Not really sure what's going on there, with 40 rpm and 2400 rpm.
And of course, we barbarians always struggle with temperature measured
in C. Not because it isn't better, but because we weren't properly
schooled. :-)
Otherwise, it was very readable using the Google Translate version.
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax/Ducati alternator webpage |
>Not really sure what's going on there, with 40 rpm and 2400 rpm.
That's a typo . . . should be 40 rev/sec = 2400 rev/min
I'd seen that article before . . . many moons ago. I might
have a copy in the archives somewhere. Nicely done.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax/Ducati alternator webpage |
| From: | C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com> |
The rotational speed determines the frequency
2400rpm=40rev/sec
40 x 5 poles 0 hz
Ken
On 10/05/2020 1:57 PM, Charlie England wrote:
> On 5/10/2020 11:57 AM, Gilles Thesee wrote:
>> <gilles@elixir-aircraft.com>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Reviewing some - not so - old messages on the 'List, I got the notion
>> that the Rotax alternator is still a relevant topic.
>>
>> So I took the opportunity of the lockdown for crafting a webpage on
>> the study performed some years ago in the University of Grenoble labs.
>>
>> The goal is to provide an easier an hopefully more pleasant reading
>> as compared with the different copies that have been "circulated"
>> here and there on the Web.
>>
>> http://contrails.free.fr/elec_alt_rotax.php
>>
>>
>> If would be delighted if some of you guys took a look at it and tell
>> me whether an English ('Frenglish' ?) version is worth the effort.
>>
>> Providing a readable and accurate English document is beyond my
>> abilities, so if need be some "Native speaker improved google"
>> version will be most welcome ;-)
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Take care everyone,
>>
>>
> Hi Giles,
>
> I'm always interested in 'data'; thanks for putting it up. I took a
> quick look using Chrome, and let Google translate from French to
> English. The only unusual term I noticed during a quick scan was
> 'straighten' where 'rectify' would be used in English.
> It is therefore necessary both to*straighten*its AC voltage to
> transform it into DC voltage, to*smooth it*to obtain a constant
> voltage, and to*regulate it*around 14 Volts.
> And:
> *NB:*The frequency is used to determine the rotation speed.
> 200 Hz with 5 pairs of poles corresponds to 40 rpm, i.e. 2400 rpm.
> Not really sure what's going on there, with 40 rpm and 2400 rpm.
>
> And of course, we barbarians always struggle with temperature measured
> in C. Not because it isn't better, but because we weren't properly
> schooled. :-)
>
> Otherwise, it was very readable using the Google Translate version.
>
> Charlie
>
>
> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>
>
>
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax/Ducati alternator webpage |
Le 10/05/2020 19:57, Charlie England a crit:
>
> *NB:*The frequency is used to determine the rotation speed.
> 200 Hz with 5 pairs of poles corresponds to 40 rpm, i.e. 2400 rpm.
> Not really sure what's going on there, with 40 rpm and 2400 rpm.
>
> And of course, we barbarians always struggle with temperature measured
> in C. Not because it isn't better, but because we weren't properly
> schooled. :-)
>
> Otherwise, it was very readable using the Google Translate version.
Charlie and all,
Thank you to those who took the time.
So Google might be a valuable source after all.
It is true that we're so picky on style and grammar in my language...
I'll have a try at it, do not hesitate to propose a correction if
something looks awkward or inaccurate.
Yes it seems Google got revolutions/s and rpm all mixed up.
As to the degrees Celsius, I'm afraid this is a report made in a
University lab, it would be an offence to use illegal units ;-)
Besides, in my WWII era P51 flight manual, engine temps are in C. The
boys could manage 80 years ago, why not homebuilders in the 21st century ?
Thanks to everyone,
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Crossover Light on |
>
>So..,, since then, I finished wiring in radios etc, and now the
>cross over light is on when I turn on only the Aux master (I have
>installed the Z-14 dual batt dual alternator). (It's in a Long Ez).
>Everything seems to work correctly, starter, crossover, etc. when I
>turn on the main master I don't get the light, when I turn on both
>masters, I don't get the light, it's just when I turn on only the Aux master.
Boy . . . that's a lot of harxware to be
carrying around in an Ez . . .
You have discovered a 'bug' in the architecture.
A 'sneak path' exists from the hot aux bus thru
the cross-over contactor coil then through
the CROSSOVER WARN light to the DEAD main bus
as a 'ground'.
See https://tinyurl.com/ydg99c5w
You can fix this by adding a diode (any handy
size will do) in series with the CROSSOVER WARN
light as shown in the sketch.
You can install it in the lead wire to the
annunciator fixture. See
https://tinyurl.com/kyc6tq6
for the technique.
Thanks for the heads-up! I'll update
Z14 to add this fix.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rotax/Ducati alternator webpage |
At 05:37 PM 5/10/2020, you wrote:
>Le 10/05/2020 =C3 19:57, Charlie England a =C3=A9crit=C2 :
>>
>>NB:=C2 The frequency is used to determine the rotation speed.
>>200 Hz with 5 pairs of poles corresponds to 40 rpm, i.e. 2400 rpm.
>>Not really sure what's going on there, with 40 rpm and 2400 rpm.
>>
>>And of course, we barbarians always struggle
>>with temperature measured in C. Not because it
>>isn't better, but because we weren't properly schooled. :-)
>>
>>Otherwise, it was very readable using the Google Translate version.
>
>
>Charlie and all,
>
>Thank you to those who took the time.
>
>So Google might be a valuable source after all.
>
>It is true that we're so picky on style and grammar in my language...
>
>I'll have a try at it, do not hesitate to
>propose a correction if something looks awkward or inaccurate.
Gilles,
This is an extra-ordinary paper that defines
the physics that govern the operation of that particular
alternator . . . and offers a benchmark for how all
pm alternators should be explored and documented.
I'd be pleased to add your work product to
the library on aeroelectric.com
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "skywagon185guy ." <skywagon185(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Crossover Light on |
Good catch by both of you electro-types....
Nice easy solution too....
On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 6:45 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
> So..,, since then, I finished wiring in radios etc, and now the cross over
> light is on when I turn on only the Aux master (I have installed the Z-14
> dual batt dual alternator). (It's in a Long Ez). Everything seems to work
> correctly, starter, crossover, etc. when I turn on the main master I don't
> get the light, when I turn on both masters, I don't get the light, it's
> just when I turn on only the Aux master.
>
>
> Boy . . . that's a lot of harxware to be
> carrying around in an Ez . . .
>
> You have discovered a 'bug' in the architecture.
> A 'sneak path' exists from the hot aux bus thru
> the cross-over contactor coil then through
> the CROSSOVER WARN light to the DEAD main bus
> as a 'ground'.
>
> See https://tinyurl.com/ydg99c5w
>
> You can fix this by adding a diode (any handy
> size will do) in series with the CROSSOVER WARN
> light as shown in the sketch.
>
> You can install it in the lead wire to the
> annunciator fixture. See
>
> https://tinyurl.com/kyc6tq6
>
> for the technique.
>
> Thanks for the heads-up! I'll update
> Z14 to add this fix.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DC clamp meter |
| From: | "blues750" <den_beaulieu(at)yahoo.com> |
Bob, finally able to do the calculation on how you get a 1 OHM equivalent resistor
out of the four resistors rated at 4 ohms in parallel. What a blast from the
past! I'll take your word on the Power rating being suitable!! Thank you so
much for the help and interest. I can't wait to get some data!
Dave (most appreciative novice experimentalist)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496289#496289
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DC clamp meter |
At 07:54 PM 5/11/2020, you wrote:
>
>Bob, finally able to do the calculation on how you get a 1 OHM
>equivalent resistor out of the four resistors rated at 4 ohms in
>parallel. What a blast from the past! I'll take your word on the
>Power rating being suitable!! Thank you so much for the help and
>interest. I can't wait to get some data!
Yup . ..
1
RT = ===================================
1 1 1 1
____ _____ _____ ______
R1 R2 R3 Rx
Rtotal equals the reciprocal of the SUM
of reciprocals of all resistors in the
array . . . no matter how many resistors.
It just so happened that your target current
worked out close to a 1-ohm load . . . so
the array of 4 x 4 ohms works nicely.
The total wattaged needed is much less than
to total ratings of thsoe four resistors.
They're offered as 100W devices . . . but
in practice, they're closer to 50W when
adequately heat-sinked. So the sum total
of the 4 is comfortably good for 200W.
You only need 13A x 13v is 169W.
This bucket-o-resistors technique is
very versatile. For example, a couple
years ago I crafted a portable, 750
watt, variable load bank for the purpose
of airborne cooling tests on alternators.
An array of 21 resistors not unlike the
ones I suggested plus a handful of components
and a fan made for a device that would
offer loads from 0 to approx 50A fan
cooled.
I've used this technique to craft load banks
up to 2800 watts (28v, 100A) . . . with
a lot more resistors and a bigger fan . . .
but knob-adjusted at the control panel.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Which are the big 10 advertising agencies in India? |
| From: | "jeewangarg" <jeewangarg2017(at)gmail.com> |
If you are looking for the list of top 10 big advertising agencies in India? JeewanGarg
brings the list of top advertising agencies in India. There are several
good companies in India and the field of advertising is booming due to great
Indian talent. There are numerous top advertising agencies in India who are
ruling the market and have also maintained their place in this competitive environment.
Some of the major companies such as Rediffusion, GWT, Ogilvy are some
of the major companies serving elite brands.
https://www.jeewangarg.com/blog/top-10-advertising-agencies-india
--------
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496292#496292
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | crimp multiple wires into one terminal |
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Bob,
I've seen how you crimp four 22 awg wires into one red (18-22AWG) PIDG terminal and I wonder if this is OK with larger wires and wires of different gages. http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/multiplewires/multiplewires.html
I'm thinking for example to put a 10 awg and a 4 awg together to save stack height
on a contactor or battery stud.
Thanks,[/code]
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496293#496293
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: crimp multiple wires into one terminal |
At 12:19 PM 5/12/2020, you wrote:
>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>I've seen how you crimp four 22 awg wires into one red (18-22AWG)
>PIDG terminal and I wonder if this is OK with larger wires and wires
>of different gages.
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/multiplewires/multiplewires.html
>
>I'm thinking for example to put a 10 awg and a 4 awg together to
>save stack height on a contactor or battery stud.
The car-guys do it all the time . . . well . . .
not exactly 'crimped' but it's common to bring
two (or more), largely different gage wires into the same
termination.
You have two design goals:
(1) gas-tight connection between conductor
stranding and the terminal's wire grip barrel.
(2) insulation support to minimize flexing
of the stress riser represented by the
transition from solid (in the grip) to
stranded (in the insulation).
The article I posted about 25 years ago
is still an excellent approach to your
mission:
https://tinyurl.com/ct36xen
This technique is much less critical of
wire/terminal/tool sizing. With the stuff-n-
solder technique, your wire grip can be
quite tight on stranding. In fact, you
purposely 'wedge' the stranding until they
are tight.
Then fill voids in the grip with solder.
Step (1) done.
Finish up with one, perhaps two heat-shrink
sleeves over the terminal and wire to provide
some environmental protection and add mechanical
support. Step (2) done.
I'd stay with welding cable for the really
fat wires . . . tefzel is okay for the smaller
stuff.
Post some pictures of what you end up with.
The fat-wire article could stand to be updated
to include the process you've asked about.
By the way, while surfing for a picture
of a two-wire battery cable, I found what
appears to be an aftermarket product for
replacing battery-post terminal-ends with
. . . who wuda thunk it . . . SOLDERED
attachement.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Question for the List |
For the past several months, I've been 'attaching' images
to my postings as opposed to 'embedding'. I'm wondering
if any Listers have recently experienced the dreaded 'emacs'
phenomenon with the new protocol.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rotax/Ducati alternator webpage |
Le 11/05/2020 17:58, Robert L. Nuckolls, III a crit:
> /
> Gilles,
>
> This is an extra-ordinary paper that defines
> the physics that govern the operation of that particular
> alternator . . . and offers a benchmark for how all
> pm alternators should be explored and documented.
>
> I'd be pleased to add your work product to
> the library on aeroelectric.com/
Bob,
Thank you for the kind words, and the good Aeroelectric job over the years.
Feel free to use any material from Contrails ! as you see fit.
Here is the alternator page translation :
http://contrails.free.fr/elec_alt_rotax_en.php
Any help in improving the English text will be appreciated.
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Question for the List |
| From: | Neal George <neal.george(at)gmail.com> |
Nosir =93
Haven=99t seen that in quite a while.
neal
From: <owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of "Robert L
. Nuckolls, III"
m>
Date: Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 5:03 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Question for the List
For the past several months, I've been 'attaching' images
to my postings as opposed to 'embedding'. I'm wondering
if any Listers have recently experienced the dreaded 'emacs'
phenomenon with the new protocol.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Question for the List |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
Same here; all good.
On 5/12/2020 8:16 PM, Neal George wrote:
>
> Nosir
>
> Havent seen that in quite a while.
>
> neal
>
> *From: *<owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of
> "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> *Reply-To: *"aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com"
>
> *Date: *Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 5:03 PM
> *To: *"aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com"
> *Subject: *AeroElectric-List: Question for the List
>
> For the past several months, I've been 'attaching' images
> to my postings as opposed to 'embedding'. I'm wondering
> if any Listers have recently experienced the dreaded 'emacs'
> phenomenon with the new protocol.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Question for the List |
At 09:06 PM 5/12/2020, you wrote:
>Same here; all good.
>
>On 5/12/2020 8:16 PM, Neal George wrote:
>>Nosir '
>>Haven=99t seen that in quite a while.
>>=C2
>>neal
>>=C2
Thanks guys.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DC clamp meter |
| From: | "blues750" <den_beaulieu(at)yahoo.com> |
Bob, that's pretty clever. In my case how "fancy" should I go? For connections
to the load from the battery, I was thinking of simply using two leads of #10
wire with alligator clips on both ends and having an inline fuseholder on one
lead with a 15A fuse. Or...do I fabricate a switched/fused platform, with
ring terminals for connections, etc? User preference?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496318#496318
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Rainy day project |
Been trying to wrap up a fuel tank/pump/sender
replacement on the ol' pick-em-up-truck . . . too
cold and wet for these ol' bones to lay under
the beast on a creeper! The truck has been up on jacks for
about 10 days and I'm down to a couple hours
work to finish . . . but not to let a rainy day
go to waste.
I mentioned a goal to formalize some demonstrations
and data gathering on fusible link materials.
Been pondering ways to generate 100 to 800A
test currents. Settled on this approach this
morning:
Configure the link-under-test with a switched
dead-short across it using a contactor. Wire
the test article to a fat battery, (I've got
a couple 100ah tractor batteries on hand
at the moment) and a battery load tester.
The test starts with the contactor closed.
Then crank up the battery tester load to the
desired test current then open the contactor.
The 'test' indicator lamp will be visible
in a video that records response of the
fusible link. Depending on weather, I might
get a chance to shoot some video yet this
week.
It's been awhile since I deliberately let
the smoke out of stuff . . . this should
be fun.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Battery capacity test load |
At 01:02 PM 5/13/2020, you wrote:
>
>Bob, that's pretty clever. In my case how "fancy" should I go? For
>connections to the load from the battery, I was thinking of simply
>using two leads of #10 wire with alligator clips on both ends and
>having an inline fuseholder on one lead with a 15A fuse. Or...do I
>fabricate a switched/fused platform, with ring terminals for
>connections, etc? User preference?
What you describe would be fine. You're not
switching a really big current . . . yeah, there
will be some 'sparking' when you clip the final
joint closed but they don't call us electron-herders
'sparkies' for nothing.
20 AWG wire would be fine . . . the leads are
short and the anticipated 13A load is easily
managed by that size wire. Same with alligator
clips.
KISS my friend . . . KISS
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> |
Dear list
Can someone direct me to a definitive wiring guide for the JD voltage
regulator. Ive found it in the past but cant find it now.
Thanks
Will
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+1 786 878 0246
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: John Deere VR |
| From: | C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com> |
http://www.n56ml.com/corvair/dynamo.html
On 13/05/2020 5:51 PM, William Daniell wrote:
> Dear list
> Can someone direct me to a definitive wiring guide for the JD voltage
> regulator. Ive foundit in the past but cantfind it now.
> Thanks
> Will
> William Daniell
> LONGPORT
> +1 786 878 0246
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: John Deere VR |
At 04:51 PM 5/13/2020, you wrote:
>Dear list
>Can someone direct me to a definitive wiring
>guide for the JD voltage regulator.=C2 =C2 Ive
>found=C2 it in the past but cant=C2 find it now.
>Thanks
>Will
>William Daniell
>LONGPORT
>+1 786 878 0246
what's the part number on your
regulator.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: John Deere VR |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Can you post a picture of your John Deere regulator?
If it looks like this one, B+ terminal goes to a 30 amp fuse that is connected
to the downstream side of battery contactor.
The AC terminals connect to Rotax permanent magnet generator (yellow wires)
L is for a lamp. Usually not used.
IGW connects to a switch (labeled "Alternator") which gets 12 volts from a 3 amp
fuse on the main power bus.
Be sure to mount regulator using heat conductive grease between aluminum surfaces.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496327#496327
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/john_deere_regulator_159.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: John Deere VR |
I originally bought this as a back up to carry in my flying tool/spares
pack. I thought it might be a good idea to know how to install it.
thanks
Will
[image: image.png]
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Wed, May 13, 2020, 19:03 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 04:51 PM 5/13/2020, you wrote:
>
> Dear list
> Can someone direct me to a definitive wiring guide for the JD voltage
> regulator.=C3=82 =C3=82 Ive found=C3=82 it in the past but cant=C3=82 fi
nd it now.
> Thanks
> Will
> William Daniell
> LONGPORT
> +1 786 878 0246
>
>
> what's the part number on your
> regulator.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery capacity test load |
| From: | "blues750" <den_beaulieu(at)yahoo.com> |
Thanks Bob, once I get setup and gather some data, I'll post results.
Dave
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496329#496329
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Meyers <bobmeyers(at)meyersfamily.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Question for the List |
Now that you mention it, the emacs issue seems to have disappeared.
I checked all my archived digests and the last time I saw it was on
March 13 in this digest post.
18. 02:04 PM - Re: Re: Two coms mic switching (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Bob Meyers
Built and flying RV-14 N626KM. Web Site Index http://N626KM.com
Built and flying Sonex N982SX. Web Site Index http://N982SX.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: John Deere VR |
So my research indicates
AC = Yellow rotax wires output from ALT
B+ = +B = battery
I believe that on the Ducati R and +B are connected internally.
IGW = C = Switch
[image: image.png]
[image: image.png]
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+1 786 878 0246
On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 7:45 PM William Daniell
wrote:
> I originally bought this as a back up to carry in my flying tool/spares
> pack. I thought it might be a good idea to know how to install it.
> thanks
> Will
>
>
> [image: image.png]
>
>
> William Daniell
> +1 786 878 0246
>
> On Wed, May 13, 2020, 19:03 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 04:51 PM 5/13/2020, you wrote:
>>
>> Dear list
>> Can someone direct me to a definitive wiring guide for the JD voltage
>> regulator.=C3=82 =C3=82 Ive found=C3=82 it in the past but cant=C3=82 f
ind it now.
>> Thanks
>> Will
>> William Daniell
>> LONGPORT
>> +1 786 878 0246
>>
>>
>>
>> what's the part number on your
>> regulator.
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> |
So my research indicates
Deere AC = Yellow rotax wires output from ALT
Deere B+ = Rotax +B = battery
I believe that on the Ducati R and +B are connected internally.
Deere IGW = rotax C = Switch
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+1 786 878 0246
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Deere Volt reg |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Your post is correct.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496347#496347
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: John Deere VR |
/Le 14/05/2020 17:54, William Daniell a crit:
/
> /So my researchindicates/
> /
> /
> /AC = Yellow rotax wires outputfrom ALT /
> /
> /
> /B+ = +B = battery/
> /
> /
> /I believe that on the Ducati R and +B are connected internally./
Will,
Yes they are.
http://contrails.free.fr/elec_ducati_en.php
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Deere Volt reg |
Thanks joe and giles.
As far as i can see there seems to be a consensus that ducati and jd are
equivalent in terms of quality and durability.
(In the 80s i have a mate with duke 900ss. Lovely bike but never worked
in the rain thanks to ducati electrics. This was somewhat of a
disadvantage in the English climate.)
Silent hectic seems to be the optimum solution.
Thanks to all
Will
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Thu, May 14, 2020, 13:35 user9253 wrote:
>
> Your post is correct.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496347#496347
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Deere Volt reg |
/Le 14/05/2020 19:56, William Daniell a crit:
/
> /
> /
> /Silent hectic seems to be the optimum solution./
Will,
It depends on what you're looking for.
We tried the Silent Hektik (the only model produced currently is the
4118), and were disappointed : it took a ~20 minute flight before the
device started recharging the batteries.
According to the manufacturer, it is intentional : as many builders are
using Lithium batteries, Silent Hektik plays safe with a "5-step
charging law".
As we cannot aford to take off with the low Volt alarms flashing, we
changed for the new Schicke GR6 which charges as soon as the engine runs.
So the Silent Hektik doesn't fit *our* needs.
Some info here : http://contrails.free.fr/elec_regul_change.php
BTW, Silent Hektik advised us to "lower the low-voltage alarm threshold
to 12.5V"...
FWIW
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Deere Volt reg |
At 01:36 PM 5/14/2020, you wrote:
>Le 14/05/2020 =C3 19:56, William Daniell a =C3=A9crit=C2 :
>>
>>Silent hectic seems to be the optimum solution.
>
>Will,
>
>It depends on what you're looking for.
>
>We tried the Silent Hektik (the only model
>produced currently is the 4118), and were
>disappointed : it took=C2 a ~20 minute flight
>before the device started recharging the batteries.
>
>According to the manufacturer, it is intentional
>: as many builders are using Lithium batteries,
>Silent Hektik plays safe with a "5-step charging law".
Interesting data point!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Deere Volt reg |
Le 14/05/2020 20:36, Gilles Thesee a crit:
>
> Silent Hektik advised us to "lower the low-voltage alarm threshold to
> 12.5V"...
>
Read "lower the voltage at which the alarms stop flashing". Hope this is
a bit clearer.
And by the way my buddy has a Silent Hektik 4118 for sale.
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Marty Hill <martyfnhill(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Flight Widgets PM Generator |
Does anyone have any experience with using a flight widgets generator and
using that as a charging source for a EarthX lithium battery?
EarthX seems to be concerned that you provide overvoltage protection and a
"smooth" power source for charging and I have no experience with their
generator or voltage regulator. If it works, it's a pretty good tradeoff
as far as dollars and pounds.
Thanks,
Marty Hill
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Flight Widgets PM Generator |
/Le 14/05/2020 22:23, Marty Hill a crit:
/
> /flight widgets generator/
What is a flight widget generator ?
Something to do with a Ram Air Turbine ?
http://contrails.free.fr/article_trop_vite.php#rat
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Flight Widgets PM Generator |
Hmm?=C2- They want $100 to resell a JD generator that you can get off Am
azon.=C2- Must be good money if you can get it.
$169Starters & Generators
|
|
|
| | |
|
|
|
| |
Starters & Generators
These starters will fit most if not all Lycoming engines O-235 though O-540
.
|
|
|
$64
JOHN DEERE NEW PERMANENT MAGNET ALTERNATOR COMPATIBLE WITH John Deere Mower
2500 2500A 2500B 2653A 10939
|
|
|
| $64.90 | |
|
|
|
| |
JOHN DEERE NEW PERMANENT MAGNET ALTERNATOR COMPATIBLE WITH John Deere Mo...
Description: Alternator OEM(s): John Deere Voltage: 12 Amps: 20 Condition:
New Fan Location: External Warranty: ...
|
|
|
l.com> wrote:
Does anyone have any experience with using a flight widgets generator and u
sing that as a charging source for a EarthX lithium battery?
EarthX seems to be concerned that you provide overvoltage protection and a
"smooth" power source for charging and I have no experience with their gene
rator or voltage regulator.=C2- If it works, it's a pretty good tradeoff
as far as dollars and pounds.
Thanks,Marty Hill
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Deere Volt reg |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Silent Hektik has more than one model. F4112, F4118, F4122
Not all have the voltage step up feature.
Van's Aircraft sells a Silent Hektik Upgrade Regulator Kit 12 REGULATOR KIT Price:
$495.00
Search eBay for MIA881279. They sell for as little as $18 with free shipping.
You can buy 28 of the John Deere regulators (item 233455272515) for the price of
Van's Silent Hektik plus shipping.
Silent Hektik regulators have failed also. Read this thread:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=176616
No matter which brand is installed, mount it using heat conductive grease between
the mating aluminum surfaces.
When purchasing a Lithium (LiFePO4) battery, it must be sized based on the capability
of the aircraft charging system.
The ETX680 can accept up to 60 amps of charging current.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496358#496358
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | For want of 'gas tight' . . . |
Been spending a lot of time under Dr. Dee's
pick-em-up truck lately . . . about 3 weeks
ago it 'died' in front of the post office.
Dug out the meters and poked around in the wiring
to the tank-mounted fuel pump. Voltage at the end
of the wire feeding the pump read battery volts,
but when connected to the pump, the pump was silent
and a clamp-on ammeter showed zero current.
The obvious conclusion was that the pump was
bad . . . fortunately it 'broke' 1/2 mile from
the house and not out in the hinterlands.
Ordered in new tanks, hangar straps and pump-sender
assemblies. The left side tank has never been
useful since we got the truck. With all the
parts in hand and truck up on jacks I launched
into a task in which I had zero experience.
Two weeks later with numerous breaks due
to weather, missing parts and creaky bones,
the new tank is in all wired and plumbed up. But
pressing the magic go-button produced no
result.
Got out the voltmeter and got the SAME
measurements as before ????? Okay, good
volts open circuit, zero volts closed circuit,
what COULD it be? Hmmmm . . . high resistance
in the source lead?
Yup, tried to load the 12v measurement at
the pump end of the wire and the reading went
to zero. Tracking back through the wiring
with various connectors I arrived at the
tank-select switch on the dash to find that
the +supply wire to the switch was just 'stuck'
into the wire grip of a fast-on terminal.
The terminal was black. There was just enough
conduction across the failed joint to offer
a 'good' voltage reading into a high impedance
voltmeter but way too high resistance to power
a pump.
Soooo . . . 4 weeks, $300 and lots of uncomplimentary
words later, it appears that root cause was a $1 fix
behind the panel!
I'm wondering if I had trouble-shot the original
diagnosis with my antique Simpson 260 multimeter,
I might have spotted the hi-resistance joint.
Oh well, gonna be up and running soon with some
fine new tanks and pumps!
Had the terminal been properly crimped in the
first place . . .
At least the second tank is going to go in
a lot smoother. Let's hear it for steep
learning curves!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: For want of 'gas tight' . . . |
Bob...
The beauty (not so much) of hi impedance volt meters. Even the good ol'
Simpson might not have loaded it enough to see the fault. An incandescent
lamp would have saved the day and $$ and pain... but hindsight is alwAYS
20/20.
chris stone
On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 4:45 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>
> Been spending a lot of time under Dr. Dee's
> pick-em-up truck lately . . . about 3 weeks
> ago it 'died' in front of the post office.
>
> Dug out the meters and poked around in the wiring
> to the tank-mounted fuel pump. Voltage at the end
> of the wire feeding the pump read battery volts,
> but when connected to the pump, the pump was silent
> and a clamp-on ammeter showed zero current.
>
> The obvious conclusion was that the pump was
> bad . . . fortunately it 'broke' 1/2 mile from
> the house and not out in the hinterlands.
>
> Ordered in new tanks, hangar straps and pump-sender
> assemblies. The left side tank has never been
> useful since we got the truck. With all the
> parts in hand and truck up on jacks I launched
> into a task in which I had zero experience.
>
> Two weeks later with numerous breaks due
> to weather, missing parts and creaky bones,
> the new tank is in all wired and plumbed up. But
> pressing the magic go-button produced no
> result.
>
> Got out the voltmeter and got the SAME
> measurements as before ????? Okay, good
> volts open circuit, zero volts closed circuit,
> what COULD it be? Hmmmm . . . high resistance
> in the source lead?
>
> Yup, tried to load the 12v measurement at
> the pump end of the wire and the reading went
> to zero. Tracking back through the wiring
> with various connectors I arrived at the
> tank-select switch on the dash to find that
> the +supply wire to the switch was just 'stuck'
> into the wire grip of a fast-on terminal.
> The terminal was black. There was just enough
> conduction across the failed joint to offer
> a 'good' voltage reading into a high impedance
> voltmeter but way too high resistance to power
> a pump.
>
> Soooo . . . 4 weeks, $300 and lots of uncomplimentary
> words later, it appears that root cause was a $1 fix
> behind the panel!
>
> I'm wondering if I had trouble-shot the original
> diagnosis with my antique Simpson 260 multimeter,
> I might have spotted the hi-resistance joint.
> Oh well, gonna be up and running soon with some
> fine new tanks and pumps!
>
> Had the terminal been properly crimped in the
> first place . . .
>
> At least the second tank is going to go in
> a lot smoother. Let's hear it for steep
> learning curves!
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: For want of 'gas tight' . . . |
Even the gods are fallible! Great story.
On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 3:45 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>
> Been spending a lot of time under Dr. Dee's
> pick-em-up truck lately . . . about 3 weeks
> ago it 'died' in front of the post office.
>
> Dug out the meters and poked around in the wiring
> to the tank-mounted fuel pump. Voltage at the end
> of the wire feeding the pump read battery volts,
> but when connected to the pump, the pump was silent
> and a clamp-on ammeter showed zero current.
>
> The obvious conclusion was that the pump was
> bad . . . fortunately it 'broke' 1/2 mile from
> the house and not out in the hinterlands.
>
> Ordered in new tanks, hangar straps and pump-sender
> assemblies. The left side tank has never been
> useful since we got the truck. With all the
> parts in hand and truck up on jacks I launched
> into a task in which I had zero experience.
>
> Two weeks later with numerous breaks due
> to weather, missing parts and creaky bones,
> the new tank is in all wired and plumbed up. But
> pressing the magic go-button produced no
> result.
>
> Got out the voltmeter and got the SAME
> measurements as before ????? Okay, good
> volts open circuit, zero volts closed circuit,
> what COULD it be? Hmmmm . . . high resistance
> in the source lead?
>
> Yup, tried to load the 12v measurement at
> the pump end of the wire and the reading went
> to zero. Tracking back through the wiring
> with various connectors I arrived at the
> tank-select switch on the dash to find that
> the +supply wire to the switch was just 'stuck'
> into the wire grip of a fast-on terminal.
> The terminal was black. There was just enough
> conduction across the failed joint to offer
> a 'good' voltage reading into a high impedance
> voltmeter but way too high resistance to power
> a pump.
>
> Soooo . . . 4 weeks, $300 and lots of uncomplimentary
> words later, it appears that root cause was a $1 fix
> behind the panel!
>
> I'm wondering if I had trouble-shot the original
> diagnosis with my antique Simpson 260 multimeter,
> I might have spotted the hi-resistance joint.
> Oh well, gonna be up and running soon with some
> fine new tanks and pumps!
>
> Had the terminal been properly crimped in the
> first place . . .
>
> At least the second tank is going to go in
> a lot smoother. Let's hear it for steep
> learning curves!
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name> |
| Subject: | Re: For want of 'gas tight' . . . |
Bob,
Ugh! That's the story of my life. At least you didn't break something else
in the process, requiring a hired $3000 repair.
-- Art Z.
On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 6:56 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> Soooo . . . 4 weeks, $300 and lots of uncomplimentary
> words later, it appears that root cause was a $1 fix
> behind the panel!
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what
am I? If not now, when?*
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Deere Volt reg |
Le 14/05/2020 23:41, user9253 a crit:
>
> Silent Hektik has more than one model. F4112, F4118, F4122
As stated, the 4112 is no longer in production, according to Silent
Hektik themselves. They seem to only sell their "5-step" regulators
(412, according to their website), preventing overcurrent when charging
LiFePo batteries.
But unfortunately preventing charging RG batteries before 20+ minutes.
Here is the message they sent to us at the time, "from the horse's mouth" :
/"//Guten Morgen//
//The F4112 with 14,2V is since 2016 retired; sorry.//
//The F4118 is not a problem for your alarm,////if you change your
settig of the alarm to <12V, to fix it.//
//warm regards"/
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Deere Volt reg |
Le 15/05/2020 04:02, Gilles Thesee a crit:
> They seem to only sell their "5-step" regulators (*412*, according to
> their website),
Oups, 412*3*
see https://www.silent-hektik.de/UL_R_912.htm
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Neal George <neal.george(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: For want of 'gas tight' . . . |
Im happy to hear Im not the only one
Neal
> On May 14, 2020, at 6:34 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
wrote:
>
>
> Soooo . . . 4 weeks, $300 and lots of uncomplimentary
> words later, it appears that root cause was a $1 fix
> behind the panel!
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> |
| Subject: | Re: For want of 'gas tight' . . . |
Of course, stuff like that never happens to me....NOT!=C2- So glad to he
ar that I'm not the only one=C2- ;)
War story:
I remember waaayyy back when I was in my 20's and my dad had a set of 12, 2
4, 32 volt test lamps in is diagnostic kit (along with the Simpson 260, whi
ch I have now) and I used to tease him that "it was the digital age" and he
was using dinosaur tools.=C2- (this was just about the time digital VOM
meters were coming out)
Fast forward and my dad just keeps getting smarter & smarter.=C2- (he's g
one now, but truly wonderful memories!)
-Jeff
wrote:
Bob,
Ugh! That's the story of my life. At least you didn't break something else
in the process, requiring a hired $3000 repair.
=C2- =C2- -- Art Z.
On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 6:56 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroe
lectric.com> wrote:
Soooo . . . 4 weeks, $300 and lots of uncomplimentary
words later, it appears that root cause was a $1 fix
behind the panel!
=C2-https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/If I am not for myself, who will be fo
r me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now, when?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: crimp multiple wires into one terminal |
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
Thanks for the detailed reply Bob.
I'm not far enough along yet but whenever I do get some photos I will post them.
Another lister, Jeff Parker, is the one with the issue at present of not having
enough stack height on either a battery or contactor stud. Jeff and I have
been collaborating on implementing Z-101 onto our respective aircraft with SDS
electronic injection and ignition.
Interestingly, Jeff was speaking with a jet aircraft repair technician who mentioned
the solder pellet method of attaching a fat wire to a fat lug. This fellow
recommended from his experience to crimp after soldering.
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496373#496373
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net |
| Subject: | Re: Flight Widgets PM Generator |
Hi Marty;
The company named Battery Tender has a regulator specifically intended for lithium
batteries. When the battery is fully charged it stops charging. I have one
and it has behaved well for about a year. I leave it connected to my Earth-X
battery.
Cheers! Stu.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty Hill" <martyfnhill(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2020 1:23:45 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Flight Widgets PM Generator
Does anyone have any experience with using a flight widgets generator and using
that as a charging source for a EarthX lithium battery?
EarthX seems to be concerned that you provide overvoltage protection and a "smooth"
power source for charging and I have no experience with their generator or
voltage regulator. If it works, it's a pretty good tradeoff as far as dollars
and pounds.
Thanks,
Marty Hill
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: For want of 'gas tight' . . . |
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
Ha ha... that reminds me of one of my recent diagnostic errors with a gas hot air
furnace. Installed new furnace and it was short cycling, it would run for eight
minutes and turn off for over temperature then come back on and repeat. Maybe
it's a little large for the house and ductwork, same size as the one that
came out (input BTU) but maybe more efficient. I've heard this is commonly caused
by return duct too small and mine was flex duct which is not smooth inside
so I installed 2" larger and metal, smooth on inside. Not fun crouching in attic,
assembling sections, screws and aluminum tape on joints, then insulation.
The result... same thing, run eight minutes, cool, repeat. OK, I'm not replacing
the supply ductwork! Three overtemp sensors, burner, heat exchanger, fan
box. A voltmeter across them tells me it's the heat exchanger thermostat that
is opening. So I have a bright idea, what if I up the temperature rating of the
thermostat? Eight minutes is a long time so it seems it is only barely tripping.
That or replace the furnace with a smaller one. I changed the thermostat
from 200F to 220F, $15, no more short cycling.
Maybe one of these days I'll replace the fuel tanks/pumps/senders on the 1995 dual
tank F150. It runs well on one tank and not so well on the other and the gauge
on the good tank does not work.
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496376#496376
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: For want of 'gas tight' . . . |
>I changed the thermostat from 200F to 220F, $15, no more short cycling.
My momma told me there would be days like that . . .
>Maybe one of these days I'll replace the fuel tanks/pumps/senders on the
>1995 dual tank F150. It runs well on one tank and not so well on
>the other and the gauge on the good tank does not work.
That's how we've been running Dr. Dee's truck too . .
for about the last 13 years!
Got the 'primary' tank running last night 'hard
plumbed' to the engine as a single tank. Got
a young man coming over Monday to pull the
remaining 'dead' tank. The new 'secondary'
will go back in easy now that I've been-there-
done-that.
I'm going to use the secondary pump to
transfer to the 'primary' tank . . . no
monkey-motion valves and switches. I'm
wanting to play with some po' boy's
capacitance fuel gaging systems. The
'secondary' tank will be available
when I want the long haul capability
but set up with threaded bungs for installation/
removal of various sensor experiments.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: crimp multiple wires into one terminal |
>Interestingly, Jeff was speaking with a jet aircraft repair
>technician who mentioned the solder pellet method of attaching a fat
>wire to a fat lug. This fellow recommended from his experience to
>crimp after soldering.
I cannot imagine why. Solder or crimp (if done with
skill and process) are independently sufficient.
Mashing on a well flowed solder joint with
a crimp tool doesn't make sense to me. Was
the speaker alluding to failures of the solder-
only devices?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Batt and Alternator Switch |
| From: | "supik" <bionicad(at)hotmail.com> |
FS here:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=181362
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496396#496396
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Z-11 superseded? It's not in the PDF folder |
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Bob,
Question... has Z-11 been superseded? It's not in the PDF folder but it is in the ACAD Dwg folder at http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496398#496398
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Game currency market |
| From: | "Gamerzone" <snz0312(at)gmail.com> |
Buy Cheap mut 20 coins (https://www.mmoexp.com/Nfl-20/Coins.html),NBA 2K MT (https://www.nba2king.com/) and Diablo IV Gold (https://www.voidk.com/Diablo-4-Gold.html) from us market online store,We ensures that your trade is completed quickly and safely - Best OSRS Gold Site (https://www.winrsgold.com/)!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496399#496399
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-11 superseded? It's not in the PDF folder |
At 07:13 PM 5/15/2020, you wrote:
>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>Question... has Z-11 been superseded? It's not in the PDF folder but
>it is in the ACAD Dwg folder at http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/
Not quite yet. I don't remember taking it down.
It's back up. Z101 will eventually replace a number
of the legacy z-figures.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bean <jimbean6(at)optimum.net> |
| Subject: | Mitchell Voltmeter |
I am installing a Mitchell voltmeter in my RV. It has terminals that look like
faston but they are bigger.
The largest faston, series 250, will not fit. It may be that a connector is intended
rather that terminals.
Anyway what connector/terminal is appropriate?
thanks and cheers Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Z-11 superseded? It's not in the PDF folder |
On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 10:24 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 07:13 PM 5/15/2020, you wrote:
>
> john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> Question... has Z-11 been superseded? It's not in the PDF folder but it is
> in the ACAD Dwg folder at http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/
>
>
> Not quite yet. I don't remember taking it down.
> It's back up. Z101 will eventually replace a number
> of the legacy z-figures.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
I might have mentioned this in the past (I know that I've thought it...)
My vote is to never *replace* a drawing. Revise, supersede, etc; sure. But
if a numbered drawing disappears, someone who followed it in the past (or
bought an a/c that used it) may need to find it again at some point down
the road. A good example is the OV circuit for IR alternators. Some of us
made an informed choice to use IR alts, but at some point, the doc
detailing the circuit disappeared. Not an issue for a wire-head, but might
cause real consternation for someone down the road who isn't
electronic-savvy.
Why not just water-mark it 'superseded' with notes including the reason &
where to go to find the new, preferred concept?
Charlie
Virus-free.
www.avast.com
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mitchell Voltmeter |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 5/16/2020 11:44 AM, Bean wrote:
>
> I am installing a Mitchell voltmeter in my RV. It has terminals that
> look like faston but they are bigger.
>
> The largest faston, series 250, will not fit. It may be that a
> connector is intended rather that terminals.
>
> Anyway what connector/terminal is appropriate?
>
> thanks and cheers Jim
>
Maybe like this?
https://www.ferrulesdirect.com/collections/quick-disconnects/products/fdnyd5-375
I've bought several packs of various sizes of quick disconnects, butt
splices, ring terminals, etc from them, and I've been pleased with them.
The ones I linked are .375" width.
The website is kinda funky to navigate, but they likely have whatever
you might need. Not claiming that they are as good as the 'gold
standard', but the certainly seem good enough. I used my B&C-supplied
crimper on them.
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | EXTERNAL PWR with MASTER/BATT SWITCH? |
| From: | "supik" <bionicad(at)hotmail.com> |
What's the reason, most of the certified aiplanes do not allow connecting the External
Power Src without turning the MASTER / BATTERY contactor ON?
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496418#496418
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EXTERNAL PWR with MASTER/BATT SWITCH? |
| From: | "supik" <bionicad(at)hotmail.com> |
..battery protection?
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496420#496420
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EXTERNAL PWR with MASTER/BATT SWITCH? |
At 08:54 PM 5/16/2020, you wrote:
>
>What's the reason, most of the certified aiplanes do not allow
>connecting the External Power Src without turning the MASTER /
>BATTERY contactor ON?
That's a kinda long story . . . but the pick-em-up
truck is off the jacks and running, so I guess I'll
offer up the long version:
"Ground Power" is a somewhat nebulous term like
"automobile", "train" or "boat". It alludes to
a function but without specifics as to quality
or safeguards.
I've seen some pretty creative pieces of hardware
for getting an airplane started. I was sold a
cold-weather assist in Brainerd, MN one really cold
morning where the energy source was a converted
engine driven welder that some electron-herder
had figured out a way to re-regulate down to
aircraft system voltages.
On another, not quite so cold morning in Kansas City,
I got a start from a WWII era engine driven
ground power unit wherein the line boy shot
28v to my 14v airplane and had his back to me
all the time I was waving at him to shut-it-off!
That experience prompted me to add ov protection
to recommended ground power systems.
During the final phases of aircraft certification
there's a Function and Reliability test phase
where a carefully carded and monitored series
of flights totalling 150 hours are carried out.
During cert on the Premier I at RAC/Beech, I was
called to ride the test aircraft on one of the
ICT-SLC-TUC-ICT round-robins to investigate
the reason that a ground power cart in Tucson
wasn't allowed to connect to the aircraft. The
airplane was fitted with some sort of power
quality monitor that would allow application
of ground power only after certain 'quality'
issues were addressed.
The ICT-SLC-TUC-ICT loop was flown at night.
Piled all my test gear in the baggage
compartment and sat in the back waiting a chance
to look at the TUC conditions.
In what was a rare rain storm, I stood on
the ramp, head in the baggage compartment
staring at my DAS screen. The airplane accepted
the GPU. I didn't see anything amiss! We
cranked up and I rode home in wet shoes.
At the de-brief it was discovered that, "Oh,
you wanted to check that 'other FBO GPU."
When you're flying two or three crews 24/7
to rack up hours on the a/c, it's a bit of
a chore to keep all the activities tightly
coordinated. So . . . back on the airplane
at 2100 and we took off for SLC.
This time TUC weather was clear and I got
some really good data. Seems that particular GPU was
a plug-in-the-wall device that used silicon
controlled rectifiers to deliver regulated
energy to the aircraft. But before being allowed
to connect to the ship's systems, the non-
loaded GPU had a terrible output waveform.
The power quality gizmo said 'no-go'. Now,
had the power quality monitor not been
present, the system would have connected.
With a battery on line all would have
been right with the universe.
So, THAT particular GPU's features required
the ship's battery to be present for operation.
If the GPU's designers had included some
fat capacitors in the output filters of their
product, I would have been cheated out of two
rides in the B390. BTW, after the first night's
experience I was compelled to wear earplugs
during climb out. The noise levels were pretty
much okay a cruise but really irritating during
climb out.
Nowadays, I believe there is a TSO describing
the qualities of the best we know how to do in
GPUs . . . I wouldn't be surprised to see notes
in operational documents for some ships to strongly
recommend hooking up to GPUs qualified to "TSO-
something-or-another.
But on a cold rainy night when you're trying
to launch out of Hog Waller International and
Bubba pulls up to your airplane with his pride
and joy ground power unit, the thought processes
involving the go/no-go decision may fall
victim to a bit of ground fog.
The short answer is: It probably wouldn't matter
but it MIGHT . . . and in any case it NEVER hurts.
Depending on where the current limiters were
set on that KC GPU, the battery just might
have saved some electro-whizzies from being
toasted in the 172XP I was flying.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EXTERNAL PWR with MASTER/BATT SWITCH? |
| From: | "supik" <bionicad(at)hotmail.com> |
Bob, thank you for the long story. Actually I used your scheme with the OV protection
and the GPU is wired to be plugged in directly on to the battery through
the EXT PWR Contactor.
If I am not wrong, Marc Ausmann's scheme connects the GPU to the battery as well.
This is what I am planning for..
But with your scheme there is no need to turn on the MASTER SWITCH..
C172 and SR22 -both require to turn on the MASTER to close the BATTERY and EXT
PWR CONTACTORS at the same time. Thus you are not able to charge your battery
unless you leave the MASTER ON (stupid?) or you connect your charger directly
with the battery poles or take the battery out..
Cirrus POH says NOT to recharge the battery through the EXT Power socket. The only
thing which comes to my mind is if one would leave the battery on a GPU overnight
which would eventually overcharge it..?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cirrus POH:
Application of External Power
An external power receptacle, located just aft of the cowl on the left side of
the airplane, permits the use of an external power unit for cold weather
starting and maintenance procedures.
CAUTION
In accordance with the manufacturers recommendation, external
power should not be used to start the airplane with a dead battery
or to charge a dead or weak battery in the airplane. The battery
must be removed from the airplane and battery maintenance
performed in accordance with the appropriate AMM procedures.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dead battery is clear but why not charge a weak battery if your charger is safe..?
Or is it that the intelligent charger might not provide enough amps to close the
EXT PWR Contactor when plugged in through the EXT PWR Socket?
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496426#496426
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EXTERNAL PWR with MASTER/BATT SWITCH? |
At 03:41 PM 5/17/2020, you wrote:
>
>Bob, thank you for the long story. Actually I
>used your scheme with the OV protection and the
>GPU is wired to be plugged in directly on to the
>battery through the EXT PWR Contactor.
>If I am not wrong, Marc Ausmann's scheme
>connects the GPU to the battery as well. This is what I am planning for..
>
>But with your scheme there is no need to turn on the MASTER SWITCH..
Yes. I do that so that the external power
can also be used to charge a battery
in-situ without powering up the rest of
the airplane.
>C172 and SR22 -both require to turn on the
>MASTER to close the BATTERY and EXT PWR
>CONTACTORS at the same time. Thus you are not
>able to charge your battery unless you leave the
>MASTER ON (stupid?) or you connect your charger
>directly with the battery poles or take the battery out..
Yeah, that theme goes back quit a ways. See
exemplar 1974 wiring attached. 1962 C185
does about the same thing. With the battery
master off, you can crank the airplane but
you cannot charge the battery. In the 74
172 drawing we see the avionics bus
disconnect relay (item 4) which unhooks
radios while cranking and/or when ground
power is hooked up.
Hinky ground power sources have been around
since day-one but the philosophy behind their
use is not an industry wide consensus.
>CAUTION
>In accordance with the manufacturer=99s recommendation, external
>power should not be used to start the airplane with a dead battery
>or to charge a dead or weak battery in the airplane. The battery
>must be removed from the airplane and battery maintenance
>performed in accordance with the appropriate AMM procedures.
Yup, this is a legacy hang over from the
days of wild-n-wooly ground power hooked
to a dead and perhaps trashed flooded battery.
A lot of potential for spectacular
messes in the battery box. It's still generally
true . . . a totally discharged battery
should be recharged with a smart charger,
while preferably but not necessarily situated
outside the airplane. NOT by a 400A ground power cart
or 60A alternator.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
>Dead battery is clear but why not charge a weak
>battery if your charger is safe..?
>Or is it that the intelligent charger might not
>provide enough amps to close the
>EXT PWR Contactor when plugged in through the EXT PWR Socket?
This is why YOU need to become the system
integrator and craft your own procedures
that meet design goals while minimizing
risk. What you suggest is perfectly doable
if you understand how NOT to let it devolve
into a bad day.
Remember that cookie-cutter airplanes are generally
owned and operated by individuals with just enough
knowledge to avoid doing something really stupid . . .
and even then it doesn't always work out. The
POH for most airplanes are crafted as much to minimize
lawsuits as opposed to educating the attentive
and thoughtful pilot.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EXTERNAL PWR operations (follow up) |
>>Or is it that the intelligent charger might not provide enough amps
>>to close the
>>EXT PWR Contactor when plugged in through the EXT PWR Socket?
You used some words that beg clarification.
"Chargers" come in all sizes from the diminutive
wall warts that are characteristic of Battery
Tender Jr and Battery Minder (1A or so output)
up to battery shop beasts capable of hundreds
of amps to charge batteries or crank engines.
To be sure, the wall warts are probably best
referred to as 'battery maintenance' devices.
While they WILL charge a battery given sufficient
time, they should not be expected to close
a ground power contactor -AND- charge a battery.
A 'real' charger is will replenish a deeply
discharged battery in a practical period of time,
say overnight at most. This class of charger is
in the 5A plus class.
Any modern charger of any size should be expected
to included automatic charge shut-off and possibly
maintenance modes of operation that would prevent
subsequent damage due to overcharge.
I don't recall seeing any TC light aircraft fitted
with a ground power contactor that was crew controlled.
All are wired to close the contactor as soon as ground
power is plugged in and energized. The third, 'pilot
pin' in the mil-std ground power jack makes contact
only after the two fat-pins are engaged. This
feature prevents burning the pins by holding current
flow at bay until the plug is mostly engaged
and contactor is closed.
I have always thought that the pilot, not the
ground crew, should have control over when ground
power is applied. Additionally, wiring that energizes
the ground power contactor should include defenses
against over voltage and reversed polarity. I think
I recall some Cessna SE products having a diode
in the ground power pilot lead that would prevent
contactor closure on a reverse polarity situation.
The ground power receptacle should be explored with
the same diligence to FMEA as the rest of the
airplane. This exercise goes to both your understanding
of how to best use the feature as well as reduce
risk to the airplane.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: EXTERNAL PWR operations (follow up to follow up) |
A 'real' charger is will replenish a deeply
discharged battery in a practical period of time,
say overnight at most. This class of charger is
in the 5A plus class.
However, any charger with an auto shut down
feature will be thwarted by the parasitic drain
of the ground power contactor coil.
A smart charger expects the recharge current
to approach zero as full charge is achieved.
If it's powering a contactor too . . . the
current never drops low enough to terminate
the charge.
Hence, 'smart' chargers should be connected
to the battery via dedicated connections -OR-
the charger should be clipped to battery
terminals AFTER the ground power contactor
-OR- the battery should be removed from
the airplane for a deep replenishment charge.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: EXTERNAL PWR operations (follow up to follow up) |
| From: | "supik" <bionicad(at)hotmail.com> |
Great and valuable points!!!
Thank you for all your exhaustive answers!
--------
Igor
RV10 in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496462#496462
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "dj_theis" <djtheis58(at)gmail.com> |
Hello forum,
Been rather quiet lately so I thought I would stir the pot with a relevant question
on my project.
I have always planned on restricting the wire on my plane to tefzel, mil spec from
Steinair or BandC. Ive read and reread Bobs book and see his recommendation
(in the text) is not restricted to this level but he has a clear process for
using wire (or, more accurately, identifying if the wire is usable) of unknown
pedigree. I have a collection of single conductor and shielded wire that is
all mil-w-16878D. Some is labeled as 200C and some with 105C temperature rating.
None of the wire is below a strand configuration of 7/30.
The question is, should I use this wire? Also, if used, should I restrict its use
to the pilot side of the firewall?
Thanks in advance for your comments.
Dan Theis
--------
Scratch building Sonex #1362
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496467#496467
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aviation wire |
Heres a chart of Mil-W-16878.
http://www.standard-wire.com/mil_w_16878_cable_designation.html
Not exactly sure what version you have but generally we want to use PTFE or FEP-coated
wire, 600V, 200C. For example the seller below handles mil-w-16878/4
which is nearly the same as mil-w-22759 commonly sold as aviation wire. One advantage
is the -16878 comes in different colors. It sounds like your 200C wire
is a PTFE or FEP coated wire and would be good anywhere you would use -22759.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/100-Ft-22-Awg-Stranded-1-2-3-Striped-Mil-Spec-600V-Teflon-Wire-Audio-Tube-Amp/183768643409?epid=577237606&hash=item2ac976f751:g:DHcAAOSwDNdV53fC
-Kent
> On May 23, 2020, at 11:59 AM, dj_theis wrote:
>
>
> Hello forum,
>
> Been rather quiet lately so I thought I would stir the pot with a relevant question
on my project.
>
> I have always planned on restricting the wire on my plane to tefzel, mil spec
from Steinair or BandC. Ive read and reread Bobs book and see his recommendation
(in the text) is not restricted to this level but he has a clear process
for using wire (or, more accurately, identifying if the wire is usable) of unknown
pedigree. I have a collection of single conductor and shielded wire that
is all mil-w-16878D. Some is labeled as 200C and some with 105C temperature
rating. None of the wire is below a strand configuration of 7/30.
>
> The question is, should I use this wire? Also, if used, should I restrict its
use to the pilot side of the firewall?
>
> Thanks in advance for your comments.
>
> Dan Theis
>
> --------
> Scratch building Sonex #1362
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496467#496467
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aviation wire |
At 10:59 AM 5/23/2020, you wrote:
>
>Hello forum,
>
>Been rather quiet lately so I thought I would
>stir the pot with a relevant question on my project.
>
>I have always planned on restricting the wire on
>my plane to tefzel, mil spec from Steinair or
>BandC. I=99ve read and reread Bob=99s book and
>see his recommendation (in the text) is not
>restricted to this level but he has a clear
>process for using wire (or, more accurately,
>identifying if the wire is usable) of unknown pedigree.
Correct. There have been (and still are) tens of thousands
of airplanes flying for decades with a wide range of
wire insulations. Given that all fault-vulnerable wires
are protected with an artfully selected fuse or breaker,
insulations of any pedigree are not at risk for initiating
a fire due to feeder faults.
The remaining concerns for type of insulation are (1)
longevity when subject to the operating environment
which includes temperature, hydrocarbons, hydraulic
fluids . . . and just plain old age.
While 22759 Tefzel (FEP) is the modern material of choice
(I say 'modern' but it's been in widespread used on
the Wichita fleets for 40 or so years), those same
aircraft were manufactured back to the 40's with
a variety of insulations including, cotton covered
rubber, some of which are still carrying perfectly
serviceable wiring.
>I have a collection of single conductor and shielded wire that
>is all mil-w-16878D. Some is labeled as 200C and some with 105C
>temperature rating. None of the wire is below a strand configuration
>of 7/30.
You can see a table of characteristics for
the various forms of 16878 wire at
https://tinyurl.com/ydgex35d
Your 200C wire is Teflon (ETFE) insulated.
Not a 'bad' insulation but the stuff does
creep under constant pressure unlike the
preferred Tefzel (FEP). Just snug up
wire-ties and clamps . . . don't strangle
'em.
The infamous Greg Richter and I had some
discussion about Teflon wire about 16 years
ago . . . https://tinyurl.com/y8lf49dq
The 105C wire will be PVC insulated. A
generation of single engine Cessnas were
manufactured with type BN wire (Nylon over
PVC).
Yeah, didn't last well under the cowl (nylon
jacket got brittle and flaked off).
>The question is, =9Cshould I use this wire? Also, if used,
>should I restrict its use to the pilot side of the firewall?
The 200C wire is fine everywhere but yeah,
the 105C wire is best kept aft of the
firewall.
The Teflon wire is a bit fussy to strip.
See: https://tinyurl.com/bol9x2n
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com> |
| Subject: | re: Aviation wire |
Bob said: "
*The Teflon wire is a bit fussy to strip.See: https://tinyurl.com/bol9x2n
"*
My 2 cents: When I obtained my Longeze (now about 10 years ago) it had a
lot of Teflon wire in it (apparently it was the "the thing" when it was
built) and after inspecting the plane, I pulled *all* of the wiring out and
re did all of it. I chose mostly Tefzel (which is neither here nor there
as far as my point goes) but I will *never* use Teflon in the plane (or a
car for that matter, but 30 AWG solid teflon is *great* for rework wire on
circuit boards). For me the "creep" issue is so bad as to be a show
stopper. Any place the wire got pulled over an edge (presumably during
install) the edge just opened up the wire. It didn't cut it but it
did displace the insulation (creep) all the way down to the wire. Even
when carefully installing tefzel wire great care must be taken to avoid
inadvertent wire-chafing related problems.
Example: I *thought* I had always been really careful but minor a
seemingly-minor re-routing of my Alternator b-lead wire back by the
alternator inadvertently took out the slack in the wire near the forward
engine mount which turned into a short on a sharp engine mount edge
bushing. Fortunately I had an ANL installed up by the master contactor
(and I don't have raw fuel spraying around under the cowl) so it was a none
event. The tefzel wire is much more durable (but clearly not durable
enough in this case) than the Teflon. (Useful tip for doing an out-of-town
field repair, on a Sunday, and you need an ANL: They are now commonly used
for automobile subwoofers and can be found super cheap at places like Car
Toys and Best Buy).
I counsel that anyone choosing to put straight teflon wire in their
aircraft be especially paranoid about protecting what, in my experience, is
a very fragile insulation layer.
Best regards to all,
Steve Stearns
O235 Longeze
Taylorcraft BC12D
Boulder/Longmont CO
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Shunt Questions |
At 07:25 PM 5/24/2020, you wrote:
>Bob, I hope you and yours are well!
>
>I have a question on shunts, but for my camper, not an aircraft. I
>thought maybe you prefer I don't clutter up the AeroElectric list
>with non-aircraft topics! (But tell me if you'd rather I send this
>to the list.)
Not that far off-topic. No doubt there
are other List members with at least
an academic if not practical interest
in DIY data acquisition. A pretty smart
cookie once opined:
"I often say that when you can measure what you
are speaking about, and express it in numbers,
you know something about it; but when you cannot
measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers,
your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind."
-- Lord Kelvin
>I would like to build some data logging for the DC system in my VW camper.
>
>https://sbw.org/sbwsty/
>
>There's a photo of my van's (messy) wiring closet here:
>
>https://sbw.org/westybattery/
>
>I have two lead-acid batteries, starting and house. Right now, just
>two charging sources, the alternator and a ProSport marine charger.
>Thinking of adding solar.
>
>I'd like to monitor several current flows:
>
>- From the alternator to the house battery.
>- From the ProSport to the house battery.
>- From the house battery to the appliances.
>- In future, from the solar charge controller to the house battery.
>
>I don't NEED all of those, of course. Just curious. So I'll need
>several shunts. B&C offers only one, 50mv at 20A, if I
>understand. So 2.5 milliohms?
>
>I think a different shunt might be better, because I'm planning to
>use this breakout board:
>
>https://www.adafruit.com/product/904
>
>It comes with a 100 milliohm shunt (a 1% resistor), intended to
>measure up to 3.2A at the INA219B chip's max differential
>320mv. The resolution at 3.2A is .8mA. I would put a shunt in
>parallel to measure a higher current, ideally one that produces
>close to 320mv for good resolution.
>
>For example, the if the alternator can produce 60A, would I maybe
>choose this 20A/100mv shunt (5 milliohms), which would produce 300mv at 60A?
>
>https://www.newark.com/canadian-shunt/la-20-100/shunt/dp/73K4805
>
>Is it silly to give up 300mv just to get higher resolution?
>
>Will it get too hot, dissipating 18W vs. the 2W it's rated for?
>
>B&C sells their shunt for $5, where the shunts from Newark are much
>more spendy. Is there somewhere better to buy them?
>
>Is there a simpler way to do this?
>
>Another interesting part of the project will be how to get the data
>up to the cloud: I'm thinking WiFi when it's available and APRS
>otherwise. And maybe BLE to an app on my phone. Adafruit has lots
>of radios I can experiment with.
>
>But first I need to gather the data.
>
>Thanks!
I have all but abandoned metallic shunts for current
measurement - especially when the millivolt data
is to processed in low level digital electronics.
We can revisit your shunt questions but I'll
suggest you consider this product:
https://tinyurl.com/yaxv58ax
These are closed loop, hall-effect sensors priced
about the same as the metallic shunts. Beauty
of these critters is total isolation, very
good linearity, repeatability and accuracy.
Best yet, one device can measure a huge
range of currents.
I stock the 6A version for about all applications.
I can run 5 passes of 22AWG wire through the
aperture and get plus/minus 1.2A full scale.
Alternatively, a single pass of 22AWG 1 foot
long through the aperture spliced in parallel
with 10AWG 1 foot long outside the aperture
gives me approx 10x multiplier for plus/minus
60A full scale.
You can situate the sensor local to the stimulus
of interest and extend the leads on a shielded,
twisted pair for direct interface with your
a/d converter. You don't need those high common
mode gain chips to do achieve an interface.
You WILL need some a/d ports to process your
hall sensor data.
I've acquired high quality data at the ends
of 40' leads in all manner of noisy environments.
The attached photo is one example of one
application. This board includes a 5v, 3-terminal
regulator enabling me to use the device
'barefoot' with a digital VOM at the observation-
end of the leads. For applications such as yours,
I'd probably solder a shielded pair directly to
the module pins and 'pot' the connections with
E-6000.
If you'd like some boards to mount and terminate
the wires in a connector, I think I've got a
few laying around. Also, if you'd like to
go for the metalic shunts, I think I've
got a few dozen 20A shunts available for the
asking . . . but you don't want to overload
these things by much . . . maybe 50%. They're
easy to 'smoke'.
LONG time no hear my friend! Pleased to know
that you're still alive, kicking and curious!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: re: Aviation wire |
Possibly what you had was not Teflon but something else. Tefzel is just
a Dupont tradename for various Teflon types. Better to specify a
Mil-W-22759/__ spec or a Mil-W-16878/__ but even those come in different
insulations. I have been pretty happy with a PEFE wire or and FEP wire.
I could not tell much difference in handling. The -16878 wire comes in
more colors. Here is a chart
> On May 25, 2020, at 10:09 AM, Steve Stearns
wrote:
>
> Bob said: "The Teflon wire is a bit fussy to strip.
> See: https://tinyurl.com/bol9x2n"
>
> My 2 cents: When I obtained my Longeze (now about 10 years ago) it
had a lot of Teflon wire in it (apparently it was the "the thing" when
it was built) and after inspecting the plane, I pulled *all* of the
wiring out and re did all of it. I chose mostly Tefzel (which is
neither here nor there as far as my point goes) but I will *never* use
Teflon in the plane (or a car for that matter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aviation wire |
At 09:09 AM 5/25/2020, you wrote:
Bob said: "The Teflon wire is a bit fussy to strip.
See: https://tinyurl.com/bol9x2n"
My 2 cents: When I obtained my Longeze (now
about 10 years ago) it had a lot of Teflon wire
in it (apparently it was the "the thing" when it
was built) and after inspecting the plane, I
pulled *all* of the wiring out and re did all of
it. I chose mostly Tefzel (which is neither here
nor there as far as my point goes) but I will
*never* use Teflon in the plane (or a car for
that matter, but 30 AWG solid teflon is *great*
for rework wire on circuit boards). For me the
"creep" issue is so bad as to be a show stopper.
Any place the wire got pulled over an edge
(presumably during install) the edge just opened
up the wire. It didn't cut it but it did
"displace the insulation" (creep) all the way
down to the wire. Even when carefully installing
tefzel wire great care must be taken to avoid
inadvertent wire-chafing related problems.
Your experience clearly illustrates the importance
of artful wire routing and support. Every airframe
shop I've worked in treated wire bundles like fuel
lines . . . do not, repeat DO NOT allow wires,
pipes, control cables, etc. to ride in contact with
the airframe . . . even if it is SMOOTH. I had a brake
failure about 2 am one morning in my '57 Chevy when
a steel brake line had laid against a rubber
power steering hose wherein the gap was 'lubricated'
with greasy sand and dust. Wore a hole in the line.
Just last week, I repaired apiece of steel line on
local kid's truck where the line was laying 'gently'
against an axle housing. 200K miles of vibration
wore a hole in it.
I think I've shared the story of a C90 on short
final to Clovis NM suffering total elevator
control disconnect due to cable chaffing against
8AWG windshield de-ice power feeder. Insulation
wore through, copper arced 'gently' against a
steel cable which eventually parted.
I counsel that anyone choosing to put straight
teflon wire in their aircraft be especially
paranoid about protecting what, in my experience,
is a very fragile insulation layer.
You bet . . . but not limited to ANY particular material.
Time, motion, pressure and contaminants are as
relentless as the Colorado River carving the Grand
Canyon. It's not a question of whether or not
it will fail . . . just a matter of when.
Best regards to all,
Steve Stearns
Thanks for sharing!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: re: Aviation wire |
On the subject of different colours, Im not sure about 16878, but Allied Wire and
Cable will happily vend you 22759/16 in ten different colours:
Black, Brown, Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Violet Grey and White.
They also do reel ends for cheap: right now you can have 155 of -20 in blue for
11.45 (0.6 cents per foot) or 90 of orange -22 for $4.83 (0.9 cents per foot).
On May 25, 2020, at 10:56 AM, Kent or Jackie Ashton wrote:
Possibly what you had was not Teflon but something else. Tefzel is just a Dupont
tradename for various Teflon types. Better to specify a Mil-W-22759/__ spec
or a Mil-W-16878/__ but even those come in different insulations. I have been
pretty happy with a PEFE wire or and FEP wire. I could not tell much difference
in handling. The -16878 wire comes in more colors. Here is a chart
> On May 25, 2020, at 10:09 AM, Steve Stearns wrote:
>
> Bob said: "The Teflon wire is a bit fussy to strip.
> See: https://tinyurl.com/bol9x2n"
>
> My 2 cents: When I obtained my Longeze (now about 10 years ago) it had a lot
of Teflon wire in it (apparently it was the "the thing" when it was built) and
after inspecting the plane, I pulled *all* of the wiring out and re did all
of it. I chose mostly Tefzel (which is neither here nor there as far as my point
goes) but I will *never* use Teflon in the plane (or a car for that matter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: re: Aviation wire |
Sorry - got my arithmetic wrong - thats 7 cents per foot, and 5 cents per foot,
respectively.
On May 25, 2020, at 11:13 AM, Alec Myers wrote:
On the subject of different colours, Im not sure about 16878, but Allied Wire and
Cable will happily vend you 22759/16 in ten different colours:
Black, Brown, Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Violet Grey and White.
They also do reel ends for cheap: right now you can have 155 of -20 in blue for
11.45 (0.6 cents per foot) or 90 of orange -22 for $4.83 (0.9 cents per foot).
On May 25, 2020, at 10:56 AM, Kent or Jackie Ashton wrote:
Possibly what you had was not Teflon but something else. Tefzel is just a Dupont
tradename for various Teflon types. Better to specify a Mil-W-22759/__ spec
or a Mil-W-16878/__ but even those come in different insulations. I have been
pretty happy with a PEFE wire or and FEP wire. I could not tell much difference
in handling. The -16878 wire comes in more colors. Here is a chart
> On May 25, 2020, at 10:09 AM, Steve Stearns wrote:
>
> Bob said: "The Teflon wire is a bit fussy to strip.
> See: https://tinyurl.com/bol9x2n"
>
> My 2 cents: When I obtained my Longeze (now about 10 years ago) it had a lot
of Teflon wire in it (apparently it was the "the thing" when it was built) and
after inspecting the plane, I pulled *all* of the wiring out and re did all
of it. I chose mostly Tefzel (which is neither here nor there as far as my point
goes) but I will *never* use Teflon in the plane (or a car for that matter
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Shunt Questions |
Gents,
Another good option is Allegro MicroSystems' line of Hall effect sensors.
=C2- You can get them from all of the usual suspects on eBay, Amazon, Ali
Express, etc., mounted on a small PCB.=C2- You just feed your current of
interest through the screw terminals, connect the output to an ADC input on
your micro and scale the reading in your code.=C2- They work well, are v
ery small, generate virtually no heat and cost very little.
The unidirectional sensors output 0V with no current flow, while the bidire
ctional sensors output half the supply voltage with no current flow (5V sup
ply = 2.5V no-current output; current in one direction produces output >2
.5V and current in the other direction produces output <2.5V).
A couple of caveats.=C2- 1. Avoid laying another current-carrying wire ov
er the surface of the sensor IC, as it can disturb the Hall sensor inside.
=C2- 2. The zero-current output of the bidirectional ICs is ratiometric w
ith the supply voltage, so be sure your sensor supply is the same as your A
DC reference.
Search links for sensor modules on eBay:
-- ACS712 (5A, 20A and 30A sensors):=C2-https://preview.tinyurl.com/ybc55
6k5
-- ACS724 (40A and 50A sensors):=C2-https://preview.tinyurl.com/y9xfbehu
-- ACS758 (50A and 100A sensors):=C2-https://preview.tinyurl.com/ybqcwoqt
Sensor IC datasheets:
-- ACS712:=C2-https://preview.tinyurl.com/ybbckmf5
-- ACS724:=C2-https://preview.tinyurl.com/yafr2oms
--ACS758:=C2-https://preview.tinyurl.com/yxoukcv4
Eric
At 07:25 PM 5/24/2020, you wrote:
I'd like to monitor several current flows:
- From the alternator to the house battery.
- From the ProSport to the house battery.
- From the house battery to the appliances.
- In future, from the solar charge controller to the housebattery.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan <limadelta(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Shelf life of electrical components in humid and dry |
environments
Hi all,
I am completing my Lancair ES, finally! I am finalizing wiring that was planned
15 years ago! I chose Z-14, Bobs dual electric system, planning two 17 AH batteries
in the rear of the airplane, and I acquired all the components years
ago. I installed the battery contactors and a ground power contactor in the rear
of the airplane and ran all the wiring required from the rear to the front
years ago. The components in the airplane sat in a pretty humid environment,
and other components said in boxes in a dryer environment. My question is whether
I need to worry about shelf life of any of these components. For example,
if the contactors test OK, are they good to go, or should I replace them?
Generally, what components in Z-14, if any, would be susceptible to degradation
from sitting?
Cheers,
Dan
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Questions about Architecture Design |
| From: | "MFleming" <sagriver(at)icloud.com> |
I hope these questions are not too rudimentary or repetitive.
I'm moving in on finalizing the wiring design for my RV-7. A few question have
nagged me for a while and I'm eager to better understand the rules or rationals
for these conundrums.
I'm basically speaking to Z101.
(1) The 6AWG wire from the battery contactor to the main bus is unprotected and
not length limited. My calculations show I can use a smaller wire. Is the 6AWG
permitted to be downsized or is it integral to safety?
(2) Since I don't have an electrically dependent engine (one p-mag) I'm planning
the Clearance Delivery bus be secondarily fed from the main bus through a diode.
Should I fuse the wire (18AWG) or come directly off the bus? Also, I have
no need for a battery bus. My plan is to feed the clearance delivery relay (Relay
needed? 3.8amps max) from the battery side of the battery contactor...is
this acceptable?
(3) I am going to have an avionics bus (sorry, I just don't want all that stuff
running when I start), so the same question. Do I fuse the 18AWG wire to the
avionics bus? I see that most endurance busses are not fused...not sure why not?
(4) Fuselinks depicted in a lot of the Z drawings. How do I size them and where
do I get them?
(5) Relay vs switch. Is there a rule of thumb for when to add a relay instead of
using a beefy switch?
Thanks in advance.
Michael Fleming
--------
Michael Fleming
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496506#496506
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.lassen(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Crowbar let the smoke out |
Happened to turn on master switch (relay) and saw smoke coming from the
OV circuit. (Made from the AEC9003-14A schematic more than two decades ago.)
I thought that was rather rude of it.
The SCR is the one that fried.
No problems many times before. Must have seen a spike from alternator
field winding.
But very worrisome that it did NOT pop the 5 amp W23-X1A1G-5 pull breaker.
The schematic specifies 20 AWG wires, and I used thicker -- perhaps 12
or 14, and very short, about three inches total for ground and + wires.
Maybe that was the problem?
Finn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Shunt Questions |
At 01:40 PM 5/25/2020, you wrote:
>Gents,
>
>Another good option is Allegro MicroSystems' line of Hall effect
>sensors. You can get them from all of the usual suspects on eBay,
>Amazon, AliExpress, etc., mounted on a small PCB. You just feed
>your current of interest through the screw terminals, connect the
>output to an ADC input on your micro and scale the reading in your
>code. They work well, are very small, generate virtually no heat
>and cost very little.
>
>The unidirectional sensors output 0V with no current flow, while the
>bidirectional sensors output half the supply voltage with no current
>flow (5V supply = 2.5V no-current output; current in one direction
>produces output >2.5V and current in the other direction produces
>output <2.5V).
>
>A couple of caveats. 1. Avoid laying another current-carrying wire
>over the surface of the sensor IC, as it can disturb the Hall sensor
>inside. 2. The zero-current output of the bidirectional ICs is
>ratiometric with the supply voltage, so be sure your sensor supply
>is the same as your ADC reference.
I've used these with success. They are
not quite so 'tight' for accuracy, etc. but
if your error budget will tolerate them, they
perform as advertised.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Shelf life of electrical components in humid |
and dry environments
At 02:24 PM 5/25/2020, you wrote:
>
>Hi all,
>
>I am completing my Lancair ES, finally! I am
>finalizing wiring that was planned 15 years
>ago! I chose Z-14, Bob=99s dual electric
>system, planning two 17 AH batteries in the rear
>of the airplane, and I acquired all the
>components years ago. I installed the battery
>contactors and a ground power contactor in the
>rear of the airplane and ran all the wiring
>required from the rear to the front years
>ago. The components in the airplane sat in a
>pretty humid environment, and other components
>said in boxes in a dryer environment. My
>question is whether I need to worry about shelf
>life of any of these components. For example,
>if the contactors test OK, are they good to go,
>or should I replace them? Generally, what
>components in Z-14, if any, would be susceptible to degradation from
sitting?
I don't think you have anything to be worried about.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Crowbar let the smoke out |
At 02:56 PM 5/25/2020, you wrote:
>
>Happened to turn on master switch (relay) and saw smoke coming from
>the OV circuit. (Made from the AEC9003-14A schematic more than two
>decades ago.)
>
>I thought that was rather rude of it.
>
>The SCR is the one that fried.
>
>No problems many times before. Must have seen a spike from
>alternator field winding.
>
>But very worrisome that it did NOT pop the 5 amp W23-X1A1G-5 pull breaker.
Yeah, it probably opened the chip
bonds on the SCR before the breaker
could even respond.
>The schematic specifies 20 AWG wires, and I used thicker -- perhaps
>12 or 14, and very short, about three inches total for ground and + wires.
>
>Maybe that was the problem?
Yup. You'll notice that the z-figures
show crowbar ov modules at the end of the
feeder to the alternator field switch . . .
and wire sized more to the task of
supplying a 3A alternator field. 20AWG.
The W23 breakers are slower than the
miniature devices but this isn't a
show stopper if you limit the fault
current with judicious wire sizes and
lengths.
This limits trip current to some value
within limits for the SCR. I've had
customers install their AEC fabricated
modules right at the breaker on a legacy
bus bar . . . they even shortened the
factory supplied leads. Their modules
suffered the same fate the first time
they tripped.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Questions about Architecture Design |
At 02:44 PM 5/25/2020, you wrote:
>
>I hope these questions are not too rudimentary or repetitive.
>
>I'm moving in on finalizing the wiring design for my RV-7. A few
>question have nagged me for a while and I'm eager to better
>understand the rules or rationals for these conundrums.
>
>I'm basically speaking to Z101.
>
>(1) The 6AWG wire from the battery contactor to the main bus is
>unprotected and not length limited. My calculations show I can use a
>smaller wire. Is the 6AWG permitted to be downsized or is it
>integral to safety?
It would be better for this to be 'robust'. I.e.
take it's place in the constellation of power
distribution feeders . . . I wouldn't go smaller
than 8AWG but unless you already have some 8 and
don't need to buy some 6, I'd use the 6. Here's
one source of many . . .
https://tinyurl.com/ya4756q6
You'll like working with this 'fat' wire.
>(2) Since I don't have an electrically dependent engine (one p-mag)
>I'm planning the Clearance Delivery bus be secondarily fed from the
>main bus through a diode.
Yup, that's what Z101 shows.
>Should I fuse the wire (18AWG) or come directly off the bus?
How many devices on your clearance delivery
bus?
>Also, I have no need for a battery bus. My plan is to feed the
>clearance delivery relay
>(Relay needed? 3.8amps max) from the battery side of the battery
>contactor...is this acceptable?
Sure . . . your 'battery bus' is the hot side terminal . . .
It just has one feeder departing the 'bus'. I recommend
10A local in-line fuse and 18AWG wire to your CD switch.
>(3) I am going to have an avionics bus (sorry, I just don't want all
>that stuff running
>when I start) . . .
What is the 'down side' for having 'all that stuff
running' during start? Z101 as depicted supports all
auxiliary busses with independent feed paths. What
are your plans for an avionics bus?
> so the same question. Do I fuse the 18AWG wire to the avionics bus?
>I see that most endurance busses are not fused...not sure why not?
They are fused at the battery source for alternate feed.
Not fused in normal feed from the main bus because
wires are short(*).
>(4) Fuselinks depicted in a lot of the Z drawings. How do I size
>them and where do I get them?
You make them from fuse link wire. Where do you
plan to incorporate them?
>(5) Relay vs switch. Is there a rule of thumb for when to add a
>relay instead of using a beefy switch?
Depends on how much wire you want to run
the 'high current' through. Which switch(es) are
you talking about? If you're switching 7A or
less, you could consider eliminating relays.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Z101 has been released under Rev A |
I've combed Z101 several times and I think
the major 'nits' have been eliminated. I removed
'preliminary' status and published as Rev -A-
at:
https://tinyurl.com/yavoutjh
Doesn't mean it's 'carved in stone' . . . just
ready for some serious builder consideration.
Error call outs and suggestions always welcome.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Questions about Architecture Design |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
The main power bus is one of the most reliable things on an airplane. It is
connected to 2 power sources, a battery and an alternator. There are no
fuses to blow in the main power feeder. An avionics bus has a switch that
can fail. And if it is protected by a fuse, that is one more unnecessary
failure point. It is a bad idea to have two fuses in series. If a load fuse
blows, the bus fuse could also blow and disable all avionics. Eliminate the
avionics bus. Yeah, I know you are concerned about voltage spikes during
engine start. But there is no such thing. Who are you going to believe,
flight instructors and mechanics who do not even own an oscilloscope and
base their advice on 1950 technology, or an electrical engineer (Bob) who
has worked for major aircraft companies and has tested starter motors in
a laboratory and proved that there are no voltage spikes? I do not have
an avionics bus. My airplane has been started hundreds of times with all
avionics turned on. No avionics have failed. Yes, some do reboot from
voltage sag which is annoying. Brownout protection can be installed if
desired. Give me the name of a modern avionics manual and page
number that states that their product must be powered off during engine
start. There are none. Make your airplane safer, and less complicated by
not having an avionics bus.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496516#496516
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Questions about Architecture Design |
| From: | "MFleming" <sagriver(at)icloud.com> |
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> At 02:44 PM 5/25/2020, you wrote:
>
> >
> > I hope these questions are not too rudimentary or repetitive.
> >
> > I'm moving in on finalizing the wiring design for my RV-7. A few question
have nagged me for a while and I'm eager to better understand the rules or rationals
for these conundrums.
> >
> > I'm basically speaking to Z101.
> >
> > (1) The 6AWG wire from the battery contactor to the main bus is unprotected
and not length limited. My calculations show I can use a smaller wire. Is the
6AWG permitted to be downsized or is it integral to safety?
>
> It would be better for this to be 'robust'. I.e.
> take it's place in the constellation of power
> distribution feeders . . . I wouldn't go smaller
> than 8AWG but unless you already have some 8 and
> don't need to buy some 6, I'd use the 6. Here's
> one source of many . . .
>
> https://tinyurl.com/ya4756q6 (https://tinyurl.com/ya4756q6)
>
> You'll like working with this 'fat' wire.
>
>
> > (2) Since I don't have an electrically dependent engine (one p-mag) I'm planning
the Clearance Delivery bus be secondarily fed from the main bus through
a diode.
>
> Yup, that's what Z101 shows.
>
>
> > Should I fuse the wire (18AWG) or come directly off the bus?
>
> How many devices on your clearance delivery
> bus?
>
>
> > Also, I have no need for a battery bus. My plan is to feed the clearance delivery
relay
> > (Relay needed? 3.8amps max) from the battery side of the battery contactor...is
this acceptable?
>
> Sure . . . your 'battery bus' is the hot side terminal . . .
> It just has one feeder departing the 'bus'. I recommend
> 10A local in-line fuse and 18AWG wire to your CD switch.
>
>
> > (3) I am going to have an avionics bus (sorry, I just don't want all that stuff
running
> > when I start) . . .
>
> What is the 'down side' for having 'all that stuff
> running' during start? Z101 as depicted supports all
> auxiliary busses with independent feed paths. What
> are your plans for an avionics bus?
>
>
> > so the same question. Do I fuse the 18AWG wire to the avionics bus?
> > I see that most endurance busses are not fused...not sure why not?
>
> They are fused at the battery source for alternate feed.
> Not fused in normal feed from the main bus because
> wires are short(*).
>
>
> > (4) Fuselinks depicted in a lot of the Z drawings. How do I size them and where
do I get them?
>
> You make them from fuse link wire. Where do you
> plan to incorporate them?
>
>
>
> > (5) Relay vs switch. Is there a rule of thumb for when to add a relay instead
of using a beefy switch?
>
> Depends on how much wire you want to run
> the 'high current' through. Which switch(es) are
> you talking about? If you're switching 7A or
> less, you could consider eliminating relays.
>
>
> Bob . . .
How many devices on your clearance delivery
bus?
Four, Primary EFIS, GPS, Comm and strobes so I don't forget to turn off the clearance
delivery switch.
Sure . . . your 'battery bus' is the hot side terminal . . .
It just has one feeder departing the 'bus'. I recommend
10A local in-line fuse and 18AWG wire to your CD switch.
Got it.
What is the 'down side' for having 'all that stuff
running' during start? Z101 as depicted supports all
auxiliary busses with independent feed paths. What
are your plans for an avionics bus?
OK, I gave my avionics wiring diagram a hard look. If I eliminate the avionics
bus and move those devices to the main bus, I only have two items that might reboot
during start, they are the Garmin GMC-507 auto pilot head and the #2 MFD.
The rest are on the TCW IBBS 6ah back-up battery.
The autopilot head I'm not concerned about. Currently the second power pin on the
#2 MFD (GDU-470) is not being used. I could run a Keep Alive wire from the
Garmin GAD-27 which conditions the line voltage during engine start and prevents
any annoying reboots from the #2MFD.
This sound simple and appealing. I'll give it s good look tomorrow.
You make them from fuse link wire. Where do you
plan to incorporate them?
I currently show a 16awg fuselink on the ALT 'B' line just before the starter solenoid.
Depends on how much wire you want to run
the 'high current' through. Which switch(es) are
you talking about? If you're switching 7A or
less, you could consider eliminating relays.
The clearance delivery switch would be a candidate to eliminate the relay. 3.8A
on the clearance delivery bus.
-M
--------
Michael Fleming
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496517#496517
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.lassen(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | RX-7 Alternator mod - negative spike diode needed? |
I modified the RX-7 Mitsubishi alternator (reman 14910?) to require
external field voltage.
Connection between three small rectifier diodes and the internal
regulator unsoldered, regulator tab bent up and covered with heat
shrink, just for good measure.
Very, very simple modification and the internal regulator is still used.
Sorry for they very poor picture from the Haynes RV-7 manual.
So, I feed the field winding from main bus, via a 5A alternator
pull-breaker to the EM-36 spade terminal on the alternator.
After my OV crowbar blew up, I took a closer look and am now wondering
if I should add a diode from ground to the EM-36 field winding terminal
to curb any negative spike.
Normally, without the mod, any negative spike resulting from powering
the field winding would be absorbed by the three small diodes and
rectifier diodes going to ground.
And perhaps I should also a diode in series with the wire from the
breaker to the alternator field terminal so a positive spike from the
field winding won't trigger the OV module?
BTW, the alternator does have a built-in capacitor over the output (B+)
not shown on the schematic, but visible to the right in the photo and
from the outside of the alternator, but doesn't affect the voltage
regulator.
Finn
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Williams <sbw(at)sbw.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Shunt Questions |
Bob and Eric, thanks for pointing out a much more elegant solution than
a shunt farm!
Bob, I re-read the section of Chapter 7 on Hall effect sensors. I'm
sure I read it around 30 years ago, but I had forgotten.
One way this is more elegant is that it can be inserted into the ground
path without disrupting the ground, which makes the physical wiring
safer. (The shunt and fuse block in my van's wiring closet are a bit
vulnerable right now.)
The microcontrollers I'm planning to use have lots of A/D pins, so
that's not a problem. They're Arduino compatible, but at 3.3V, so I
wonder whether the LTS 6-NP must have a 5V supply voltage? If so,
that'll factor in to the multiplier produced by the parallel wires, to
make full scale no more than 3.3V.
I skimmed the data sheet on the LTS 6-NP. I'll have to read it more
closely before I'll be able to put it to use! I believe I understand
how the six primary leads are configured to the application, but not so
much passing a conductor (or turns!) through the aperture.
Other than your clever 10X scaling, how does one choose between a
conductor through the aperture vs. the primary leads?
And I'll want to understand more about the physical considerations: Does
this device require some minimum clearance from other wiring/components?
I assume you specify a 1 foot length for each of the parallel 22AWG and
10AWG wires because 10AWG has a cross section about 9X 22AWG? Why 1
foot? What about just a shorter length of each, from one side of the
sensor to the other? (I'm picturing a printed circuit board with the 22
AWG soldered near Fast-Ons or threaded studs to attach the 10AWG and the
wires to ground and load/battery. Or, heck, just a bolt through to the
chassis, like the ground block.)
I wonder whether one could achieve the same multiplier (and current
capacity) using a shorter wire through the aperture together with a
generous area of printed circuit foil to carry the other 90% of the
current? (I've never learned anything about the current capacity of
printed circuit foil or how to predict its resistance.) Could that
assembly be calibrated somehow? Would it be stable?
Thanks, as always, for being so generous with your time!
On 5/25/2020 7:38 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> I have all but abandoned metallic shunts for current
> measurement - especially when the millivolt data
> is to processed in low level digital electronics.
>
> We can revisit your shunt questions but I'll
> suggest you consider this product:
>
> https://tinyurl.com/yaxv58ax
>
> These are closed loop, hall-effect sensors priced
> about the same as the metallic shunts. Beauty
> of these critters is total isolation, very
> good linearity, repeatability and accuracy.
>
> Best yet, one device can measure a huge
> range of currents.
>
> I stock the 6A version for about all applications.
> I can run 5 passes of 22AWG wire through the
> aperture and get plus/minus 1.2A full scale.
> Alternatively, a single pass of 22AWG 1 foot
> long through the aperture spliced in parallel
> with 10AWG 1 foot long outside the aperture
> gives me approx 10x multiplier for plus/minus
> 60A full scale.
>
> You can situate the sensor local to the stimulus
> of interest and extend the leads on a shielded,
> twisted pair for direct interface with your
> a/d converter. You don't need those high common
> mode gain chips to do achieve an interface.
> You WILL need some a/d ports to process your
> hall sensor data.
>
> I've acquired high quality data at the ends
> of 40' leads in all manner of noisy environments.
> The attached photo is one example of one
> application. This board includes a 5v, 3-terminal
> regulator enabling me to use the device
> 'barefoot' with a digital VOM at the observation-
> end of the leads. For applications such as yours,
> I'd probably solder a shielded pair directly to
> the module pins and 'pot' the connections with
> E-6000.
>
> If you'd like some boards to mount and terminate
> the wires in a connector, I think I've got a
> few laying around. Also, if you'd like to
> go for the metalic shunts, I think I've
> got a few dozen 20A shunts available for the
> asking . . . but you don't want to overload
> these things by much . . . maybe 50%. They're
> easy to 'smoke'.
>
> LONG time no hear my friend! Pleased to know
> that you're still alive, kicking and curious!
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Questions about Architecture Design |
>
>How many devices on your clearance delivery
>bus?
>
>Four, Primary EFIS, GPS, Comm and strobes so I don't forget to turn
>off the clearance delivery switch.
Do your strobes have their own power
switch? If there is risk that the
CD switch is inadvertently left on
at shutdown, how is there less risk
that the strobes are not independently
shut off and the CD switch is now
un-monitored?
Checklists are a time honored, legacy
proven hedge against human weakness
of the gray matter. The FARS require
a single-stroke feature for making the
aircraft electrically 'cold' . . . in
the case of multiple, dual-feed buses
it's easily managed with a 'crash bar'
over the row of switches.
Sorry if I seem 'fussy'. I cannot help
being extra attentive to things done to
mitigate 'forgetfulness'. Airplanes
are not SAFE. They are exceedingly
unforgiving as demonstrated in countless
NTSB incident/accident narratives . . .
the vast majority of which have foundation
in over confidence/forgetfulness.
>What is the 'down side' for having 'all that stuff
>running' during start? Z101 as depicted supports all
>auxiliary busses with independent feed paths. What
>are your plans for an avionics bus?
>
>OK, I gave my avionics wiring diagram a hard look. If I eliminate
>the avionics bus and move those devices to the main bus, I only have
>two items that might reboot during start, they are the Garmin
>GMC-507 auto pilot head and the #2 MFD. The rest are on the TCW IBBS
>6ah back-up battery.
With Z101 you have probably the most failure
tolerant architecture flying . . . and you've
still got a back-up battery?
>You make them from fuse link wire. Where do you
>plan to incorporate them?
>
>I currently show a 16awg fuselink on the ALT 'B' line just before
>the starter solenoid.
Trying to accurately describe an architecture
with words leaves much to be desired. If
you're basing your plans on Z101, then
exactly how do you plan to modify that
drawing?
Those remote relays for alternate feed
paths allow clustering major components
together on short (*) leads making
fault protection easier. There are several
instances of fuse-link wire illustrated
on Z101.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Schottky diode voltage drop. |
Long story short, my Dynon display reads low voltage due to the isolation
diode. Is there a better choice?
I have had my Essential buss installed for 10? years now. My Dynon takes
it's power from the E buss and uses that to display the system voltage. My
Q-200 is all electric and I really want to see what the actual voltage is
there. Unfortunately, the voltage drop across the Schottky diode seems to
be almost a volt. So, when flying I mentally add a volt to the display, but
I would really prefer not to, especially times when I might have other
electrical issues going on.
Is there another diode product I could use that would reduce the drop?
Thank you.
Sam Hoskins
samhoskins.blogspot.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Schottky diode voltage drop. |
At 01:00 PM 5/26/2020, you wrote:
>Long story short, my Dynon display reads low
>voltage=C2 due to the isolation diode. Is there a better choice?
>
>I have had my Essential buss installed for 10?
>years now.=C2 My Dynon takes it's power=C2 from the
>E buss and uses that to display the system
>voltage. My Q-200 is all electric and I really
>want to see what the actual voltage is
>there.=C2 Unfortunately, the voltage drop across
>the Schottky=C2 diode seems to be almost a volt.
>So, when flying I mentally=C2 add a volt to the
>display, but I would really prefer not to,
>especially times when I might have other electrical issues going on.
>
>Is there another diode product I could use that would reduce the drop?
Isn't the Dynon programmable as to what it
calls 'low voltage'?
You can go with a Schottky diode which will
drop less voltage . . . but it's not going
to be zero . . . so you still have to do the
mental exercise to deduce main bus voltage.
But what's the motivation for concern? Under
what circumstances would you need to know
the main bus voltage? In any case, you can
fly with the e-bus alternate feed switch
closed . . . which would cause the instrument
to read very close to bus voltage and probably
turn the warning off.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Crowbar let the smoke out |
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.lassen(at)verizon.net> |
Exactly what I did. zip-tied (and siliconed) it to top of breaker, with
very short thick wires to ground (ring around breaker mounting neck) and
to breaker terminal screw.
So, shorter and thicker wires is not always better :(
This is a 60 - 70 amp alternator, so I figured would need at least 5
amps or approx 10% for field winding?
Not expecting to ever use that much current, but didn't want to pop the
breaker in case of a nearly discharged battery.
So use 22 awg the 30" from breaker to alternator? And a bigger SCR?
Finn
On 5/25/2020 6:28 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> I've had
> customers install their AEC fabricated
> modules right at the breaker on a legacy
> bus bar . . . they even shortened the
> factory supplied leads. Their modules
> suffered the same fate the first time
> they tripped.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Schottky diode voltage drop. |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
A Schottky diode drops about 0.5 volt less than a P-N Junction Diode. The
voltage dropped depends on the current. Diode manufacturers publish data
sheets that contain a graph that shows voltage drop at various currents. The
voltage drop across your diode can not be determined without knowing the
current and diode temperature and having the data sheet. I good guess is 0.6 volts.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496528#496528
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Schottky diode voltage drop. |
Thanks Bob.
Recently, a fuse in my B&C generator blew (some wiring shorted to the
firewall) and my all-electric aircraft was staying in the air solely
courtesy of the batteries. For a variety of modifications, I need 14 amps
to stay in the air. That's why I want to see the actual main bus voltage.
My Dynon D-180 displays the actual voltage, I 'm not talking about
their programmable warning setting. I am using a Schottky MB2505 diode for
E-bus isolation.
This isn't a huge deal, and perhaps just using the E-bus switch is the
simple solution.
Thanks.
Sam
On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 4:47 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 01:00 PM 5/26/2020, you wrote:
>
> Long story short, my Dynon display reads low voltage=C3=82 due to the iso
lation
> diode. Is there a better choice?
>
> I have had my Essential buss installed for 10? years now.=C3=82 My Dynon
takes
> it's power=C3=82 from the E buss and uses that to display the system volt
age. My
> Q-200 is all electric and I really want to see what the actual voltage is
> there.=C3=82 Unfortunately, the voltage drop across the Schottky=C3=82 d
iode seems
> to be almost a volt. So, when flying I mentally=C3=82 add a volt to the d
isplay,
> but I would really prefer not to, especially times when I might have othe
r
> electrical issues going on.
>
> Is there another diode product I could use that would reduce the drop?
>
>
> Isn't the Dynon programmable as to what it
> calls 'low voltage'?
>
> You can go with a Schottky diode which will
> drop less voltage . . . but it's not going
> to be zero . . . so you still have to do the
> mental exercise to deduce main bus voltage.
>
> But what's the motivation for concern? Under
> what circumstances would you need to know
> the main bus voltage? In any case, you can
> fly with the e-bus alternate feed switch
> closed . . . which would cause the instrument
> to read very close to bus voltage and probably
> turn the warning off.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RX-7 Alternator mod - negative spike diode needed? |
>
>After my OV crowbar blew up, I took a closer look and am now
>wondering if I should add a diode from ground to the EM-36 field
>winding terminal to curb any negative spike.
Wouldn't hurt . . .
>Normally, without the mod, any negative spike resulting from
>powering the field winding would be absorbed by the three small
>diodes and rectifier diodes going to ground.
>
>And perhaps I should also a diode in series with the wire from the
>breaker to the alternator field terminal so a positive spike from
>the field winding won't trigger the OV module?
No positive spikes . . . not necessary.
>BTW, the alternator does have a built-in capacitor over the output
>(B+) not shown on the schematic, but visible to the right in the
>photo and from the outside of the alternator, but doesn't affect the
>voltage regulator.
Nice work!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Schottky diode voltage drop. |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
The MB2505 bridge diode does not appear to be a Schottky type.
That is why it drops more than one volt. It also wastes energy as heat.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496533#496533
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Finn Lassen <finn.lassen(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | RX-7 Alternator mod - negative spike diode needed? |
I modified the RX-7 Mitsubishi alternator (reman 14910?) to require
external field voltage.
Connection between three small rectifier diodes and the internal
regulator unsoldered, regulator tab bent up and covered with heat
shrink, just for good measure.
Very, very simple modification and the internal regulator is still used.
Sorry for they very poor picture from the Haynes RV-7 manual.
So, I feed the field winding from main bus, via a 5A alternator
pull-breaker to the EM-36 spade terminal on the alternator.
After my OV crowbar blew up, I took a closer look and am now wondering
if I should add a diode from ground to the EM-36 field winding terminal
to curb any negative spike.
Normally, without the mod, any negative spike resulting from powering
the field winding would be absorbed by the three small diodes and
rectifier diodes going to ground.
And perhaps I should also a diode in series with the wire from the
breaker to the alternator field terminal so a positive spike from the
field winding won't trigger the OV module?
BTW, the alternator does have a built-in capacitor over the output (B+)
not shown on the schematic, but visible to the right in the photo and
from the outside of the alternator, but doesn't affect the voltage
regulator.
Finn
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aviation wire |
| From: | Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl> |
For what it's worth, the supplier I bookmarked once (reasonable prices I
suppose):
https://prowireusa.com//c-32-m22759-16.aspx
Two thicknesses of insulation. Which to choose?
Cheers
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
>Bob and Eric, thanks for pointing out a much more elegant solution
>than a shunt farm!
>
>Bob, I re-read the section of Chapter 7 on Hall effect sensors. I'm
>sure I read it around 30 years ago, but I had forgotten.
They've become a LOT better and cheaper
since!
>One way this is more elegant is that it can be inserted into the
>ground path without disrupting the ground, which makes the physical
>wiring safer. (The shunt and fuse block in my van's wiring closet
>are a bit vulnerable right now.)
You still have to break into the ground
path which involves terminations/splices
of some sort.
>The microcontrollers I'm planning to use have lots of A/D pins, so
>that's not a problem. They're Arduino compatible, but at 3.3V, so I
>wonder whether the LTS 6-NP must have a 5V supply voltage? If so,
>that'll factor in to the multiplier produced by the parallel wires,
>to make full scale no more than 3.3V.
Which boards are you planning? I've got
an UNO DAS shield that was crafted to
mate with an Arduino R3. It's got one
dedicated LTS6NP sensor. The LTS6 has
three internal passes through the core
brought out on six pins. I've arranged
to exploit those internal passes with
terminals that place 1, 2 or all 3 in
series for 6, 3, and 2 amps full scale.
Of course, the drilled aperture is available
for customized passes on the monitored
conductor.
>I skimmed the data sheet on the LTS 6-NP. I'll have to read it more
>closely before I'll be able to put it to use! I believe I
>understand how the six primary leads are configured to the
>application, but not so much passing a conductor (or turns!) through
>the aperture.
The device has
>Other than your clever 10X scaling, how does one choose between a
>conductor through the aperture vs. the primary leads?
>
>And I'll want to understand more about the physical considerations:
>Does this device require some minimum clearance from other wiring/components?
No
>I assume you specify a 1 foot length for each of the parallel 22AWG
>and 10AWG wires because 10AWG has a cross section about 9X
>22AWG? Why 1 foot? What about just a shorter length of each, from
>one side of the sensor to the other? (I'm picturing a printed
>circuit board with the 22 AWG soldered near Fast-Ons or threaded
>studs to attach the 10AWG and the wires to ground and
>load/battery. Or, heck, just a bolt through to the chassis, like
>the ground block.)
Nothing magical about the 1 foot length.
The goal is to take 10% of total current through
the aperture while taking 90% around the aperture.
10AWG is 1 mohm/ft; 20AWG is 10 mohm/ft. What we're
looking for is a total paralleled resistance
of 1 mohm (10% of the 20AWG thru conductor).
If you want to parallel 10 mohm with something to
give you 1/10 the total you'll need about 1.1 mohms.
This would work out to about 13.2 inches of 10AWG.
My DAS systems just record raw, uncompensated
data. So 1 foot of 10AWG paralleled with 1 foot
of 20AWG gives me a total of 0.0091 ohms or
about 10% low for being a calibrated shunt.
You CAN calibrate the shunt-wires but it takes
careful cutting, splicing and verification.
My data analysis software allows me to apply
offset and scale factors to raw data to derive
calibrated data. Hence, my shunt wires need only
be in the ball park.
>I wonder whether one could achieve the same multiplier (and current
>capacity) using a shorter wire through the aperture together with a
>generous area of printed circuit foil to carry the other 90% of the
>current? (I've never learned anything about the current capacity of
>printed circuit foil or how to predict its resistance.) Could that
>assembly be calibrated somehow? Would it be stable?
You need to strive for KNOWN, stable resistances . . .
unless you're using temperature stable resistance
materials, you'll want to use similar materials
for the two 'shunts'. Copper has a significant
positive temperature coefficient of resistance
and would normally make a 'rough' shunt. In
this instance, I don't care about the absolute
resistance, only the RATIO of the two resistances.
Being of similar material, the division ratio
is relatively independent of ambient
temp and temperature rise due to current
flow.
You haven't shared how many apples are already
in your 'cart' . . . don't what to toss off
too much effort but be aware of availability
of the DAS shield illustrated. The assembled
Arduino boards includes an SD memory card
socket. The software allows user selected
sample rates and writes data to comma delimited
ASCII files. If you'd like to explore this
hardware in more detail, I'll get you the
schematics. AEC-Lister Paul Fisher has put
considerable effort into the supporting
software. I'm pretty sure he'd be interested
in spooling this project up again.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | cheapo 24 -> 12V dc-dc converters |
| From: | "Colyn Case" <colyncase(at)earthlink.net> |
I have a 28V aircraft with a few critical items that run on 12V. I previously
used a Vicor VI-M11-ES but it became damaged and that model is no longer available.
What Vicor has available are mini-packs which require building up your own circuit
board and heat sinks. cost is $400 and several days of work for me.
So I found this thing on the net. data sheet attached. for $22. Includes heatsink,
leads etc. The worst thing I could find about it is .140V ripple.
but that beats the Vicor spec.
Any reason I shouldn't just use this thing?
--------
Colyn Case
colyncase(at)earthlink.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496547#496547
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/daygreen_24v_to_12v_20a_240w_448.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: cheapo 24 -> 12V dc-dc converters |
| From: | Rob Turk <matronics(at)rtist.nl> |
One thing to watch out for is that this is a switching power supply. You
can tell because it claims "High efficiency up to 95%". A linear
converter would convert half of the energy into heat. Although switching
regulators are everywhere these days, some are RF noisy, so you may hear
noise on your radio.
Rob
On 5/28/2020 6:07 PM, Colyn Case wrote:
>
> I have a 28V aircraft with a few critical items that run on 12V. I previously
used a Vicor VI-M11-ES but it became damaged and that model is no longer available.
>
> What Vicor has available are mini-packs which require building up your own circuit
board and heat sinks. cost is $400 and several days of work for me.
>
> So I found this thing on the net. data sheet attached. for $22. Includes
heatsink, leads etc. The worst thing I could find about it is .140V ripple.
but that beats the Vicor spec.
>
> Any reason I shouldn't just use this thing?
>
> --------
> Colyn Case
> colyncase(at)earthlink.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496547#496547
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/daygreen_24v_to_12v_20a_240w_448.pdf
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | coax switches for sharing an antenna |
| From: | "Colyn Case" <colyncase(at)earthlink.net> |
I'm adding a second transponder to my carbon airplane and am out of places to mount
a second antenna. I would only be using one transponder at a time so I
am thinking of using a coax switch to select which transponder gets the antenna.
I'm not sure if these are built for my application, namely a transceiver
vs. a transmitter. Here's an example of one I am considering. Anything I
need to look out for here?
...and what does "latching" mean?
https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/404/CCR-33S_CR-33S_LATCHING-1228654.pdf
--------
Colyn Case
colyncase(at)earthlink.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496549#496549
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: cheapo 24 -> 12V dc-dc converters |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
You might also consider a converter with 13.8 volt output which is closer to an
aircraft
electrical system voltage with the alternator operating.
https://www.daygreen.com/collections/24v-to-12v-13-8v/products/24v-to-13-8v-20a-276w-dc-dc-step-down-converter-voltage-regulator
The AC ripple from an alternator is probably worse than a converter.
eBay has one for $17.50, free shipping from CA eBay item number:332791865341
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496550#496550
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: coax switches for sharing an antenna |
| From: | Dick Tasker <dick(at)thetaskerfamily.com> |
My $0.02.
Looks like it would do the job. It does have a limitation of 100W capability at
the frequency band of interest. I am not sure what that rating is based on but
a modern ADSB transponder will put out
250W peak. If the limitation is based on continuous power output then I wouldn't
worry as a transponder is relatively low duty cycle. If it is based on internal
breakdown voltage or something
related to instantaneous power it could be a problem. Possibly you could contact
the manufacturer to find out more.
Latching means that you only have to energize the switch power momentarily and
the switch stays in that position until you energize the other switch input to
change to the other output.
Dick Tasker
Colyn Case wrote:
>
> I'm adding a second transponder to my carbon airplane and am out of places to
mount a second antenna. I would only be using one transponder at a time so
I am thinking of using a coax switch to select which transponder gets the antenna.
I'm not sure if these are built for my application, namely a transceiver
vs. a transmitter. Here's an example of one I am considering. Anything
I need to look out for here?
>
> ...and what does "latching" mean?
>
> https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/404/CCR-33S_CR-33S_LATCHING-1228654.pdf
>
> --------
> Colyn Case
> colyncase(at)earthlink.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496549#496549
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: cheapo 24 -> 12V dc-dc converters |
| From: | "Colyn Case" <colyncase(at)earthlink.net> |
Joe, thanks for the link.
In this case I actually do want 12V but interesting to get another data point on
day-green.
--------
Colyn Case
colyncase(at)earthlink.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496554#496554
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Carter <david(at)carter.net> |
| Subject: | re: Z101 has been released under Rev A (Robert L. Nuckolls, |
III)
Quick question on this diagram: Near the upper left, there is a feed
coming off of the battery bus that is labeled for a 30A fused feed to
"BOBUS". Is that correct? I see two feeds coming into to the brownout / CD
bus: 1 from the diode bridge that feeds the engine bus, and one (switched)
directly from the battery side of the battery contactor.
Thanks!
---
David Carter
david(at)carter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Schottky diode voltage drop. |
| From: | "Colyn Case" <colyncase(at)earthlink.net> |
if you are interested in minimizing Vf it's worthwhile looking at the Vf curves
on the device you want to use. Here's one from the IXYS DSS2x81-0045B. A few
trends: Lower Vf is associated with lower current and with higher operating
temp. This particular device has two diodes in the package so you can cut
your current in half by using the two diodes in parallel.
--------
Colyn Case
colyncase(at)earthlink.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496558#496558
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dss2x810045b_vf_curve_680.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: coax switches for sharing an antenna |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
A switch will fail someday. Or a transponder will inadvertently be turned on
without an antenna connected. A transponder could be damaged. I suggest
that a second antenna be installed even if the location does not comply with
the manufactures suggested spacing. It will not hurt to locate a transponder
antenna closer to a com antenna than recommended because they operate at
considerably different frequencies.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496559#496559
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Z101 has been released under Rev A (Robert L. Nuckolls, |
III)
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
In the latest revision of Z101, the 30 amp fuse has been replaced with a
fusible link. Both the engine bus and the Brownout/Clearance Delivery bus
can get power from either the up stream or down stream side of the master
contactor. Your observations are correct.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496560#496560
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: coax switches for sharing an antenna |
| From: | "Colyn Case" <colyncase(at)earthlink.net> |
It's complicated. to be that close to the com antenna I would have to be physically
mounted in the metal that forms its ground plane.
Does the transponder blow up if its side of the switch is open?
--------
Colyn Case
colyncase(at)earthlink.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496563#496563
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: coax switches for sharing an antenna |
| From: | "Colyn Case" <colyncase(at)earthlink.net> |
nvm. i see there's a risk there...
--------
Colyn Case
colyncase(at)earthlink.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496564#496564
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: coax switches for sharing an antenna |
I think most transponders have a supression line that is used to make sure
only one can transmit at a time. No switching required.
On Thu, May 28, 2020, 19:52 Colyn Case wrote:
> colyncase(at)earthlink.net>
>
> It's complicated. to be that close to the com antenna I would have to be
> physically mounted in the metal that forms its ground plane.
>
> Does the transponder blow up if its side of the switch is open?
>
> --------
> Colyn Case
> colyncase(at)earthlink.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496563#496563
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: coax switches for sharing an antenna |
| From: | "Colyn Case" <colyncase(at)earthlink.net> |
Wait. Does a transponder ever transmit without receiving anything?
--------
Colyn Case
colyncase(at)earthlink.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496565#496565
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: coax switches for sharing an antenna |
Squawk Ident?
On Thu, May 28, 2020, 21:10 Colyn Case wrote:
> colyncase(at)earthlink.net>
>
> Wait. Does a transponder ever transmit without receiving anything?
>
> --------
> Colyn Case
> colyncase(at)earthlink.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496565#496565
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: cheapo 24 -> 12V dc-dc converters |
At 11:07 AM 5/28/2020, you wrote:
>
>
>I have a 28V aircraft with a few critical items that run on 12V. I
>previously used a Vicor VI-M11-ES but it became damaged and that
>model is no longer available.
>
>What Vicor has available are mini-packs which require building up
>your own circuit board and heat sinks. cost is $400 and several
>days of work for me.
>
>So I found this thing on the net. data sheet attached. for
>$22. Includes heatsink, leads etc. The worst thing I could find
>about it is .140V ripple. but that beats the Vicor spec.
>
>Any reason I shouldn't just use this thing?\
Not at all . . . the ripple value is of no
consequence given that the ripple values
on the operating DC bus of an airplane are
on the order of 2500 mV pk-pk.
If you have any difficulties with this
device it will be interference with receivers
in the a/c due to radiated and conducted noise
in the radio frequency ranges . . . small
chance but not zero and easy to spot if they
do occur.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Williams <sbw(at)sbw.org> |
On 5/27/2020 12:21 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>> Bob and Eric, thanks for pointing out a much more elegant solution
>> than a shunt farm!
>>
>> Bob, I re-read the section of Chapter 7 on Hall effect sensors. I'm
>> sure I read it around 30 years ago, but I had forgotten.
>
> They've become a LOT better and cheaper
> since!
I can see that!
>> One way this is more elegant is that it can be inserted into the
>> ground path without disrupting the ground, which makes the physical
>> wiring safer. (The shunt and fuse block in my van's wiring closet are
>> a bit vulnerable right now.)
>
> You still have to break into the ground
> path which involves terminations/splices
> of some sort.
Yes, but no injection losses. A shunt on the low side would make the
ground float around, which is never good.
>> The microcontrollers I'm planning to use have lots of A/D pins, so
>> that's not a problem. They're Arduino compatible, but at 3.3V, so I
>> wonder whether the LTS 6-NP must have a 5V supply voltage? If so,
>> that'll factor in to the multiplier produced by the parallel wires, to
>> make full scale no more than 3.3V.
>
> Which boards are you planning?
I have one of each of these coming from Adafruit next week for
experimentation:
Feather M0 Express: https://urlzr.mp/dqb (adafruit.com)
Feather nRF52840 Express: https://urlzr.mp/eqb (adafruit.com)
Each has six ADC pins, which should be plenty. The ADCs can measure
0-3.6mV.
The nRF52840 is faster than the M0, has a lot more flash and RAM for
firmware, and Bluetooth low energy, in case I want to use a smartphone
app to display the data.
There are lots of other Feathers with various capabilities:
https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-feather
I'll also need this "Featherwing" (like a shield) to carry the SD card
and provide an accurate realtime clock:
Adalogger FeatherWing: https://urlzr.mp/fqb (adafruit.com)
> I've got
> an UNO DAS shield that was crafted to
> mate with an Arduino R3. It's got one
> dedicated LTS6NP sensor. The LTS6 has
> three internal passes through the core
> brought out on six pins. I've arranged
> to exploit those internal passes with
> terminals that place 1, 2 or all 3 in
> series for 6, 3, and 2 amps full scale.
>
> Of course, the drilled aperture is available
> for customized passes on the monitored
> conductor.
And thanks for sending the schematics separately. I reviewed the
schematics closely, and I have some questions I may send you.
But I understand the LTS6NP better after reading the data sheet more
closely. I can use your parallel-wires method to scale to more than 6A.
>> I assume you specify a 1 foot length for each of the parallel 22AWG
>> and 10AWG wires because 10AWG has a cross section about 9X 22AWG? Why
>> 1 foot? What about just a shorter length of each, from one side of
>> the sensor to the other? (I'm picturing a printed circuit board with
>> the 22 AWG soldered near Fast-Ons or threaded studs to attach the
>> 10AWG and the wires to ground and load/battery. Or, heck, just a bolt
>> through to the chassis, like the ground block.)
>
> Nothing magical about the 1 foot length.
>
> The goal is to take 10% of total current through
> the aperture while taking 90% around the aperture.
> 10AWG is 1 mohm/ft; 20AWG is 10 mohm/ft. What we're
> looking for is a total paralleled resistance
> of 1 mohm (10% of the 20AWG thru conductor).
> If you want to parallel 10 mohm with something to
> give you 1/10 the total you'll need about 1.1 mohms.
> This would work out to about 13.2 inches of 10AWG.
The LTS6NP requires 5V and outputs 0-5V, whereas the Feathers can
measure only 0-3.6V. The LTS 6-NP outputs 3.6V at 2.64A. So I would
adjust the parallel wires to carry only about 2.5A through the aperture,
if that makes sense.
But here's the next gotcha: I want to measure separate currents FROM the
charging sources and FROM the battery, so I don't need any of the
negative current range of the LTS devices, which output 2.5V at 0A.
That wastes most the resolution! The Feathers use 12-bit ADCs.
Measuring only over 2.5-3.6V leaves only about 1,250 bits of resolution.
At 60A (from the alternator) that's about 50mA per bit. Is that
enough resolution?
Ideas for using more of the range?
> My DAS systems just record raw, uncompensated
> data. So 1 foot of 10AWG paralleled with 1 foot
> of 20AWG gives me a total of 0.0091 ohms or
> about 10% low for being a calibrated shunt.
> You CAN calibrate the shunt-wires but it takes
> careful cutting, splicing and verification.
Yes. It'll be interesting to see how repeatable the assembly can be.
> My data analysis software allows me to apply
> offset and scale factors to raw data to derive
> calibrated data. Hence, my shunt wires need only
> be in the ball park.
Yes, there's no reason not to just measure each assembly on the bench
and put the empirical numbers into firmware.
In fact, since each of my desired measurements have different expected
ranges, I might use different lengths of wires for each, or even just
use the internal passes for lower currents.
Heck, I might go up to the LTS 15-NP for some of the lower current
sources (like my 8A marine charger), and just use the internal passes
for simplicity.
> You haven't shared how many apples are already
> in your 'cart' . . . don't what to toss off
> too much effort but be aware of availability
> of the DAS shield illustrated. The assembled
> Arduino boards includes an SD memory card
> socket. The software allows user selected
> sample rates and writes data to comma delimited
> ASCII files. If you'd like to explore this
> hardware in more detail, I'll get you the
> schematics. AEC-Lister Paul Fisher has put
> considerable effort into the supporting
> software. I'm pretty sure he'd be interested
> in spooling this project up again.
Thanks! I really want to explore the smaller Feather devices, but your
DAS shield is an excellent starting point, and much of Paul's software
may be usable since the Feathers support the Arduino IDE. (They also
have "Circuit Python," but I don't yet know the differences.)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Williams <sbw(at)sbw.org> |
Yesterday, discussing my project to create a data logger to measure
charge and discharge paths in my VW camper, I wrote that I'm planning to
use one of Adafruit's Feather microntrollers. Bob suggested the LTS
series hall effect current sensors. I wrote:
> (The Feathers have) six ADC pins, which should be plenty. The ADCs can measure
> 0-3.6mV.> > ...> > The LTS6NP requires 5V and outputs 0-5V, whereas
the Feathers can > measure only 0-3.6V. The LTS 6-NP outputs 3.6V at
2.64A. So I would > adjust the parallel wires to carry only about 2.5A
through the aperture, > if that makes sense.> > But here's the next
gotcha: I want to measure separate currents FROM the > charging sources
and FROM the battery, so I don't need any of the > negative current
range of the LTS devices, which output 2.5V at 0A. That > wastes most
the resolution! The Feathers use 12-bit ADCs. Measuring > only over
2.5-3.6V leaves only about 1,250 bits of resolution. At 60A > (from the
alternator) that's about 50mA per bit. Is that enough > resolution?> >
Ideas for using more of the range?
Of course, I already know the answer: Use a simple op amp circuit to
shift and scale the 2.5-5V output range of the LTS to the 0-3.6V input
range of the Feather ADC.
I think I've found the resources I need to learn how to design that
circuit. More on that below.
But adding an op amp to adapt the output of the very elegant LTS series
devices makes me feel like I'm not using the ideal hall effect device.
So let me ask: Is there a device that can be applied more directly? The
ideal device would:
- Work with a supply voltage of 3.3V, like the Feathers, and output
0-3.3V. (The Feather ADCs can use the 3.3V supply voltage as the
reference or an internal 0.6V reference and 1/6 divider to measure 3.6V.)
- Or require a 5V supply voltage, but also a configurable full scale
voltage.
- And configurable to produce 0V output at 0A current.
But assuming I use the LTS series, here's what I've found so far to help
me shift and scale its output:
I re-read Wikipedia on op amps:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational_amplifier
Then I asked DuckDuckGo to find me an "op amp designer":
https://ddg.gg/?q=op+amp+designer
That led me to TI's Design Resources page:
https://urlzr.mp/gqb (ti.com)
I selected "Amplifier circuits":
https://urlzr.mp/hqb (ti.com)
Under "Signal Conditioning," I selected "Non-inverting op amp with
non-inverting positive reference voltage circuit" to download the PDF:
http://www.ti.com/lit/sboa263 (PDF)
That's very informative, and it has a link to another PDF, "Designing
Gain and Offset in Thirty Seconds":
http://www.ti.com/lit/pdf/sloa097 (PDF)
I haven't yet applied that, but it looks like a great resource for a
DIYer like me! I'll try to create a proposed schematic and run it by
Bob for refinement.
In particular, I note in the DAS schematic Bob sent me that his signal
conditioning op amps have capacitors in various configurations around
the inputs. The TI tool produces just a basic circuit with resistors
for the offset and scale, so I'll be curious to find out what Bob's
capacitors add to the signal conditioning, and whether my use case needs
that.
I'm tempted to adapt TI's "30 Seconds" tool to Javascript, so
experimenters can use it through a web browser!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
[snipped]
> In particular, I note in the DAS schematic Bob sent me that his signal
> conditioning op amps have capacitors in various configurations around
> the inputs. The TI tool produces just a basic circuit with resistors
> for the offset and scale, so I'll be curious to find out what Bob's
> capacitors add to the signal conditioning, and whether my use case
> needs that.
>
> I'm tempted to adapt TI's "30 Seconds" tool to Javascript, so
> experimenters can use it through a web browser!
I haven't dug out my old linear device books in a couple of decades, but
the old 'cookbooks' and application notes for opamps and similar devices
typically included a section describing 'best practices' for bypassing
values/locations. If you do a little careful reading, I'll bet it's in
there somewhere, unless the new-tech stuff includes internal filtering.
If that's the case, it should be documented, as well.
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Battery capacity test load |
| From: | "blues750" <den_beaulieu(at)yahoo.com> |
Finally received my 4 ohm 100W resistors to make up a resistive load for doing
my battery capacity checks. I get 12.8A through the load and plenty of heating
of the heat sink (so I added a fan, and a couple of cooling fins) to the heat
sink which is a 4"x6" slab of 3/4" aluminum. Will be interesting to find out
what the EarthX battery will do for time before disconnecting.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496579#496579
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/resistive_load_439.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Eric Del <zoom2136(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Questions about Architecture Design |
Hi all,
I'm new here trying to post on the forum, but cannot. I've lost my password
and cannot get the system to send me a new one. It does tell me that an em
ail was sent to my email address, but nothing. I've checked my spam folder
but nothing either.=C2-
Also tried sending my electric diagram for my Cozy directly to aeroelectric
-list(at)matronics.com for your comments, but that email also did not go throu
gh.
Hope this one does. As I would greatly appreciate your help in building a s
afe airplane.
Thanks
Eric DMontr=C3=A9al, Canada
m> wrote:
The main power bus is one of the most reliable things on an airplane.=C2-
It is
connected to 2 power sources, a battery and an alternator.=C2- There are
no
fuses to blow in the main power feeder.=C2- An avionics bus has a switch
that
can fail.=C2- And if it is protected by a fuse, that is one more unnecess
ary
failure point.=C2- It is a bad idea to have two fuses in series.=C2- If
a load fuse
blows, the bus fuse could also blow and disable all avionics.=C2- Elimina
te the
avionics bus.=C2- Yeah, I know you are concerned about voltage spikes dur
ing
engine start.=C2- But there is no such thing.=C2- Who are you going to
believe,
flight instructors and mechanics who do not even own an oscilloscope and
base their advice on 1950 technology, or an electrical engineer (Bob) who
has worked for major aircraft companies and has tested starter motors in
a laboratory and proved that there are no voltage spikes?=C2- I do not ha
ve
an avionics bus.=C2- My airplane has been started hundreds of times with
all
avionics turned on.=C2- No avionics have failed.=C2- Yes, some do reboo
t from
voltage sag which is annoying.=C2- Brownout protection can be installed i
f
desired.=C2- Give me the name of a modern avionics manual and page
number that states that their product must be powered off during engine
start. There are none.=C2- Make your airplane safer, and less complicated
by
not having an avionics bus.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496516#496516
-
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> |
> On May 31, 2020, at 03:36, Steve Williams wrote:
> So let me ask: Is there a device that can be applied more directly? The i
deal device would:
>
> - Work with a supply voltage of 3.3V, like the Feathers, and output 0-3.3V
. (The Feather ADCs can use the 3.3V supply voltage as the reference or an i
nternal 0.6V reference and 1/6 divider to measure 3.6V.)
Here are 17 through-hole devices similar to the ones Bob suggested, from thr
ee manufacturers, all of which will operate at 3.3V:
https://preview.tinyurl.com/y7eo66u9
Pay particular attention to the LEM parts. You can play with their referenc
e voltage to achieve current measurements well above their banner specs, and
they have a hole to allow passing a wire through their core.
There are also 3.3V versions of the Allegro parts that I suggested a few day
s ago:
https://preview.tinyurl.com/y8z5am4t
> - Or require a 5V supply voltage, but also a configurable full scale volta
ge.
Any of the 5V parts could be used by simply putting their output through a r
esistor divider that scales it to a maximum of 3.3V (i.e. 13.7k over 26.7k).
You can calibrate readings in your code. No op-amps required.
> - And configurable to produce 0V output at 0A current.
Most (all?) of the unidirectional parts will meet this spec. The bidirectio
nal parts have to use Vcc/2 as their zero-current point in order to measure c
urrent in both directions.
Eric
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Garmin GAD 27 Brown-Out Booster |
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
If you are planning on Garmin.
For those who may not be aware... Garmin's GAD 27 (Flaps/Lights/Trim Controller)
incorporates a Brown-Out Booster. They call it Voltage Stabilizer and it will
deliver up to 3.5A at 12V if you feed it 5V or above.
"Voltage Stabilizer - Essential avionics receive stable power during engine start
without the need for a back-up battery when integrating the GAD 27 adapter..."
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496583#496583
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Williams <sbw(at)sbw.org> |
Wow, thanks again Eric. It'll take me some time to absorb that.
Looking at your links, I learned a bit better how to use Digikey's web
site to narrow down the selection. Very helpful.
On 5/31/2020 9:19 AM, Eric Page wrote:
>> On May 31, 2020, at 03:36, Steve Williams wrote:
>> So let me ask: Is there a device that can be applied more directly?
>> The ideal device would:
>>
>> - Work with a supply voltage of 3.3V, like the Feathers, and output
>> 0-3.3V. (The Feather ADCs can use the 3.3V supply voltage as the
>> reference or an internal 0.6V reference and 1/6 divider to measure 3.6V.)
>
> Here are 17 through-hole devices similar to the ones Bob suggested, from
> three manufacturers, all of which will operate at 3.3V:
>
> https://preview.tinyurl.com/y7eo66u9
>
> Pay particular attention to the LEM parts. You can play with their
> reference voltage to achieve current measurements well above their
> banner specs, and they have a hole to allow passing a wire through their
> core.
>
> There are also 3.3V versions of the Allegro parts that I suggested a few
> days ago:
>
>
> https://preview.tinyurl.com/y8z5am4t
>
>
>> - Or require a 5V supply voltage, but also a configurable full scale
>> voltage.
>
> Any of the 5V parts could be used by simply putting their output through
> a resistor divider that scales it to a maximum of 3.3V (i.e. 13.7k over
> 26.7k). You can calibrate readings in your code. No op-amps required.
>
>
>> - And configurable to produce 0V output at 0A current.
>
> Most (all?) of the unidirectional parts will meet this spec. The
> bidirectional parts have to use Vcc/2 as their zero-current point in
> order to measure current in both directions.
>
> Eric
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
At 12:37 PM 5/31/2020, you wrote:
>
>Wow, thanks again Eric. It'll take me some time to absorb that.
Thanks from me too . . . just what I was thinking . . .
>Looking at your links, I learned a bit better how to use Digikey's
>web site to narrow down the selection. Very helpful.
Of all the supplier websites I consult,
Digikey is head and shoulders above the
rest. I think Menards, Home Depot and
Lowes are all tied for the worst!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Looking for help finalysing my Cozy's electrical system |
| From: | "Zoom2136" <zoom2136(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi,
Ive been following many of the discussions here for the last year or so, while
planning the rewiring of my Cozy Mk3. Of particular interest to me was the discussion
about electrically dependent engines. Because I purchased such a EFI and
EI system (EFIIs System 32), Ive attempted to design an electrical system that
I think would allow for the safe operation of such an aircraft, but Im no
electrical engineer so I may be going down the I dont know that this thing can
kill me road with a big grin on my face.
Just so you know, this aircraft will operate in Quebec, Canada, where you can go
for more than an hour before reaching the midpoint between airports with nothing
to see along the way but lakes and forest. So redundancy is very important,
for my peace of mind.
FYI, Ive already purchased the following items for my Cozy:
Full EFII System 32 (electronic fuel injection & dual ignition)
VPX PRO solid-state breaker box (mostly for non-engine related items)
GRT Avionics EIS R66 engine monitor
GRT Avionic Hxr EFIS
B&C BC460-H 60 amp alternator (main)
B&C BC410-H 20-40 amp alternator (aux)
B&C BCS206 Lycoming starter
B&C LR-3C regulator (x2)
I have a lot of other stuff (electric nose gear, electric air brakes, LED nav,
taxi & landing lights, radios, transponder, GPS, etc.), but the aforementioned
are the primary systems for which I would greatly appreciate your help. The list
of GRT stuff is just to let you know what I have to monitor the system.
OK, so a quick description.
My system is based on the Z-14 diagram.
My objective was to have 2 totally independent power paths for the engine-related
components and to share the loads and backup power for avionics and other electrical
stuff between the MAIN and AUX alternators and batteries, which could
be seen more as SYST 1 and SYST 2, I guess.
System back bone (my v1.04 drawing):
1. Switched side of MAIN Contactor (B&C S701-1) feeds the VPX which in turn feeds
non-engine related electro gizmos (EFIS, EIS, radios, etc.).
2. Switched side of AUX Contactor (B&C S701-1) feeds the AUX BUS that backs up
some of the circuits powered through the VPX and powers some backup electrical
stuff (e.g.: GRT EFIS on MAIN/AUX, AVMAPS EFIS on AUX).
3. MAIN BATTERY feeds the engine bus #1 (EB1) via a 50A (final value TBD) breaker
and SPST switch
4. AUX BATTERY feeds the engine bus #2 (EB2) via a 50A (final value TBD) breaker
and SPST switch
5. CROSSFEED Contactor (B&C S701-2) can be closed if one alternator fails (or for
a cold start) as the MAIN, AUX and ENGINE BUSSES subsystem should be 100% independent
(except for backup circuits). A green LED indicates if CROSSFEED if
closed
6. VPX will monitor both battery voltage.
Engine, ignition and fuel delivery subsystems (v2.10 drawing):
Composed of 2 independent engine bus (EB1 & EB2), each powering a subset of components
that will keep the engine running on its own.
a. EB1 bus powers:
i. the TOP COIL
ii. Right (#1) ECU
iii. Main (#1) fuel pump
iv. IF either [ECU #1] or [ECU #1 and #2] is/are ON, EB1 powers the
INJECTOR POWER MODULE
b. EB2 bus powers:
i. The BOTTOM COIL
ii. Left (#2) ECU
iii. Aux (#2) fuel pump
iv. IF ECU #1 is OFF, EB2 powers the INJECTOR POWER MODULE
* FYI, the injector duty can be handled by either ECU, but only one at any time.
Ive followed EFII System 32 power wiring schematics (see attached file) logic and
breakers/fuses value recommendations, but I will not be using its Bus Manager.
My ECU and INJECTOR power and control setup
Ive tried to keep the system easy to operate, e.g., power EB1 via SPST switch,
select ECU 1 via an Aircraft Spruce ACS-510-5 start key, and press the start button.
The engine should start and keep running independent of if the alternator(s)
are ON or OFF. The same can be done with EB2. Also using the key switch
BOTH position with EB1 & EB2 powered would turn ON both ECUs. The CROSSFEED contactor
can also be closed to pair the batteries for a cold start, and the system
should have no issue with it.
My objective was to minimize the number of switches while still being able to isolate
stuff if something went wrong. My thinking is that having 2 independent
engine buses that can be switched off to take offline components that form a
subsystem seems to fit this criterion.
Using 4 relays: 2 for the coils, 1 for the injector power module and 1 as a way
of switching ECU, it is possible to switch automatically between 3 conditions
using an ACS ACS-510-5 starter key switch (without the start option):
A. EB1 ON only
ECU #1 (ON) / ECU #2 (OFF), TOP COIL (ON) / BOTTOM COIL (OFF) & Injectors duty
controlled by the ECU #1. Fuel pumps activated via a DPDT switch are MAIN (ON),
AUX (OFF).
B. EB2 ON only
ECU #2 (ON) / ECU #1 (OFF), BOTTOM COIL (ON) / TOP COIL (OFF) & Injector duty controlled
by the ECU #2. Fuel pumps activated via a DPDT switch are MAIN (OFF),
AUX (ON).
C. EB1 and EB2 ON
Both ECU (ON), both COILS (ON) & Injectors duty controlled by the ECU #1. Fuel
pumps activated via a DPDT switch are MAIN (ON), AUX (AUTO (using a fuel pressure
switch)).
See attached files for color coded diagrams.
CONDITION A (requires EB1 SPST switch (ON))
Power = green, Ground = Aqua blue. Red slashes = COLD (OFF)
Selecting ECU #1 with the start key causes:
i) The grounding of GRD BLOC 2, which in turn causes:
a. If EB2 is ON, the BOTTOM COIL to shut OFF (its normally open (pin 87a) coil
select relay is closed (pin 87));
b. ECU #2 P-LEAD is grounded, shutting OFF ECU #2 if EB2 is ON.
ii) GRD BLOC 1 is NOT grounded, meaning:
a. ECU #1 is ON (no grounded P-LEAD) and powered by EB1;
b. ECU #1 is handling the injector duty (its INJECTOR ENABLE wire is not grounded)
and the injector power module is powered by EB1 through a closed (pin 87)
injector auto fail over relay (this normally open (pin 87a) relay automatically
switch the injector power module power source from EB1 to EB2, if EB1 fail or
is OFF);
c. ECU #2 INJECTOR ENABLE wire grounded through the open (pin 87a) normally open
(pin 87a) injector select relay, causing ECU #2 to stop handling the duty of
the injectors; and
d. TOP COIL normally open (pin 87a) coil select relay remains open (pin 87a), and
power is supplied to the TOP COIL (ON) from EB1.
CONDITION B (requires EB2 SPST switch (ON))
Power = green, Ground = Aqua blue. Red slashes = COLD (OFF)
Selecting ECU #2 with the start key causes:
i) The grounding of GRD BLOC 1, which in turn causes:
a. ECU #1 is OFF (its P-LEAD grounded) if EB1 is ON;
b. The normally open (pin 87a) injector select relay coil is powered, and it closes
(pin 87) the relay. ECU #1s INJECTOR ENABLE wire is grounded causing ECU
#1 to cease handling injector duty and ECU #2 to take over the injector duty;
c. If EB1 is ON, the TOP COIL normally open (pin 87a) coil select relay coil is
powered, and it closes (pin 87), shutting OFF the TOP COIL.
iii) GRD BLOC 2 is NOT grounded, meaning:
a. ECU #2 is ON, as its P-LEAD is NOT grounded.
b. ECU #2 INJECTOR ENABLE wire is NOT grounded, so ECU #2 is handling the injector
duty.
c. The BOTTOM COIL normally open (pin 87a) coil select relay remains open (pin
87a) switching ON the BOTTOM COIL; and
CONDITION C (power to EB1 and EB2 SPST switches (ON))
Power = green, Ground = Aqua blue. Red slashes = COLD (OFF)
Selecting both ECU with the start key causes:
ii) GRD BLOC 1 is NOT grounded, meaning:
a. ECU #1 is ON (no grounded P-LEAD) powered by EB1;
b. ECU #1 is handling the injector duty (its INJECTOR ENABLE wire is not grounded)
and the injector power module is powered by EB1 through a closed (pin 87)
injector auto fail over relay;
c. ECU #2 INJECTOR ENABLE wire grounded through the open (87a pin) normally open
(pin 87a) injector select relay, causing this ECU to stop handling the duty
of the injectors; and
d. TOP COIL normally open (pin 87a) coil select relay remains open (pin 87a), and
power is supplied to the TOP COIL (ON) from EB1.
iv) GRD BLOC 2 is NOT grounded, meaning:
d. ECU #2 is ON, as its P-LEAD is NOT grounded.
e. ECU #2 INJECTOR ENABLE wire is grounded through the open (pin 87a) normally
open (pin 87a) injector select relay, so ECU #1 is handling the injector duty
(see point C above).
f. The BOTTOM COIL normally open (pin 87a) coil select relay remains open (pin
87a) switching ON the BOTTOM COIL; and
Thank you for your time,
One more thing, FYI, I have a lot of 18 AWG wire, so if some wire seems to be oversized
to 18 AWG, it is just that I figure that I can live with the added weight,
and use what I have.
Thanks again,
Eric
--------
Eric D
Cozy IIIx C-GEDZ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496586#496586
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/effi_syst_32_suggested_electrical_diagram_129.png
http://forums.matronics.com//files/condition_c__fuel_pumps_main_on_aux_auto_206.png
http://forums.matronics.com//files/condition_b__fuel_pumps_main_off_aux_on_846.png
http://forums.matronics.com//files/condition_a__fuel_pumps_main_on_aux_off_110.png
http://forums.matronics.com//files/condition_c__eb1_on_eb2on_ecu_1_on_ecu_2on_901.png
http://forums.matronics.com//files/condition_b__eb1_off_eb2on_ecu_1_off_ecu_2on_173.png
http://forums.matronics.com//files/condition_a__eb1_on_eb2off_ecu_1_on_ecu_2off_129.png
http://forums.matronics.com//files/c_gedz_fuel_ignition_oil_v210_169.pdf
http://forums.matronics.com//files/c_gedz_fuel_ignition_oil_v100_131.pdf
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: re: Z101 has been released under Rev A (Robert |
L. Nuckolls, III)
At 05:14 PM 5/28/2020, you wrote:
>Quick question on this diagram:=C2 Near the upper
>left, there is a feed coming off of the battery
>bus that is labeled for a 30A fused feed to
>"BOBUS". Is that correct? I see two feeds coming
>into to the brownout / CD bus: 1 from the diode
>bridge that feeds the engine bus, and one
>(switched) directly from the battery side of the battery contactor.=C2
>
>Thanks!=C2
Good eye . . . that's an artifact of
an earlier iteration. I've continued to
massage the concepts illustrated in the
new z-figure.
New iteration will be posted soon. Thanks
for checking!
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Looking for help finalysing my Cozy's electrical |
system
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
Single points of failure:
All four injectors are powered by one reley, wire, and fuse link.
Both pumps are powered thru the same switch.
Questions:
The injectors have fuse links in the harness. Are they sized so they won't pop
the one fuse link that feeds all four injectors?
What happens if both injector enable inputs are un-grounded?
Why are there relays for removing power from the coils?
What is the EFII Syst 32 Inj Pwr Module? I would have thought each ECU box has
open collector injector drivers inside.
Will the automatic aux pump feature result in a relaxation oscillator? (No pressure,
pump on... now we have pressure, pump off, repeat.)
Where are the batteries located?
Thoughts/IMO:
It would be simpler to have separate toggle switches for left and right coil "P-Leads".
It wouild be simpler to have an SPDT switch for injector enable grounds like EFII
illustrates but what is the effect if the ground is lost to both injector enables?
I don't know how to have faith in Bus Manager (I know you mentioned you are not
using Bus Manager) or EFII in general when they show un-necessary SPOFs that
will stop the engine. Ref EFII Dwg 9 rev 5/19 that you attached.
50A is more than an engine bus requires. I am planning on dual four cylinder SDS
EFI+I on O-360 and my calculations show:
ECU 0.13A
Coilpack 1.1A at cruise
Fuel pump 5.25A at 45 PSI (Walbro GSL393)
14.5 Ohm injectors 0.32A each at cruise (32% duty cycle, 10 GPH)
I plan to put both EFI+I systems (pri and bak) on one engine bus and the current
draw is less than 20A (15A with both pumps and coils running for low altitude;
8.2A with one coil and one pump running in current conservation mode).
I'm planning on an adaptation of Z-101 which is simpler than Z-14 and IMO just
as reliable.
It would be simpler and more reliable to have separate toggle switches for the
main and aux fuel pumps and eliminate the fuel pressure switch.
The fuel pressure switch is called NO; I would think that means it is open when
there is no fuel pressure so the logic is backwards.
You mentioned dwg 1.04 but attached 1.00.
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u6GeZo6pmBWsKykLNVQMvu4o1VEVyP4K
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496588#496588
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | FUSES or CIRCUIT BREAKERS IN SERIES |
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
My microwave oven blew its ABC 20 fuse and also tripped the 20 amp
circuit breaker in the service entrance panel. I tested the 4 door switches
and the transformer and large capacitor, finding nothing wrong. So I
replaced the fuse. The microwave worked for a couple of days before the
same thing happened again, blowing the 20 amp internal fuse and tripping the
20 amp circuit breaker. Looking at the schematic
https://www.appliancefactoryparts.com/content/pdfs/170873-1.pdf
one of the door switches provides a short circuit path between the hot and
neutral supply. Evidently if plastic parts wear out, that can cause a timing
issue between the operation of the door switches. When that happens, the
electrical supply to the microwave is shorted out. That is a poor design in
my opinion. I pulled a wire off from the door switch, the one which is capable
of
shorting out the supply voltage. The microwave has been working fine since.
The purpose of this post is to warn against designing aircraft electrical
systems with two circuit protection devices in series, for instance a main
fuse and a load fuse. Without extensive testing, it is not known if a short
circuit in a load circuit will blow the main fuse in addition to the load fuse,
even if the fuses are different sizes. There is a reason why most aircraft
electrical systems do not have a fuse protecting the main power bus.
If that fuse blows, the whole electrical system goes down.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496590#496590
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Looking for help finalysing my Cozy's electrical |
system
| From: | "Zoom2136" <zoom2136(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi, thanks for taking the time to review my diagrams.
johnbright wrote:
> Single points of failure:
>
> All four injectors are powered by one reley, wire, and fuse link.
*** The one wire & fuse link is supplied by the manufacturer and is the recomended
setup. I added a relay to be able to switch power source between EB1 & EB2
when selecting an ECU (or both). The relay could be replaced by diode protected
feed wire, Not sure if this would be safer?
johnbright wrote:
> Both pumps are powered thru the same switch.
*** Agreed, but what is the failure mode of a switch? 1) Welded shut contacts?
The one pump would always be ON. 2) Worn contacts, then 1 of the 2 pumps should
be able? I'm I wrong?
johnbright wrote:
> Questions:
> The injectors have fuse links in the harness. Are they sized so they won't pop
the one fuse link that feeds all four injectors?
> What happens if both injector enable inputs are un-grounded?
> Why are there relays for removing power from the coils?
> What is the EFII Syst 32 Inj Pwr Module? I would have thought each ECU box has
open collector injector drivers inside.
> Will the automatic aux pump feature result in a relaxation oscillator? (No pressure,
pump on... now we have pressure, pump off, repeat.)
> Where are the batteries located?
*** Fuse links / Are provided and sized by the manufacturer, so they are sized
appropriately.
*** Un-grounded injector enable inputs / Then both ECU will try to drive the injector,
not a good thing, but their is no work around that I can see. However,
with my setup, the first step to trouble shooting is always using the KEY switch
in the BOTH ECU position (normal position), select ECU 1 and MAIN FUEL PUMP,
if the situation does not improve, selct ECU 2 and AUX FUEL PUMP.
*** Relays for coils / This is to create 2 independant subset of components that
can be isolated along with ECU 1 or ECU 2 using only the KEY switch. So the
KEY switch allows to kill either ECU 1 or 2 and all their sub-components in one
action "kill ECU 1 & TOP COIL and transfer control of the INJECTORS to ECU2"
or "kill ECU 2 & BOTTOM COIL and transfer control of the INJECTORS to ECU 1".
This could be done with 2 DPDT switch, 1 switch powering ON at the same time
ECU 1 and TOP COIL, and a second switch powering on ECU 2 and BOTTOM COIL.
*** Automatic pump feature / This one is over my head. I have no clue! That behing
said, I will have to check with EFII as the system preset pressure is 35PSI,
but I have not seen a minium PSI value.
*** Battery location / In a Cozy, they are typically located on the cabin side
of the firewall.
johnbright wrote:
> Thoughts/IMO:
> It would be simpler to have separate toggle switches for left and right coil
"P-Leads".
> It wouild be simpler to have an SPDT switch for injector enable grounds like
EFII illustrates but what is the effect if the ground is lost to both injector
enables?
> I don't know how to have faith in Bus Manager (I know you mentioned you are not
using Bus Manager) or EFII in general when they show un-necessary SPOFs that
will stop the engine. Ref EFII Dwg 9 rev 5/19 that you attached.
> 50A is more than an engine bus requires. I am planning on dual four cylinder
SDS EFI+I on O-360 and my calculations show:
> ECU 0.13A
> Coilpack 1.1A at cruise
> Fuel pump 5.25A at 45 PSI (Walbro GSL393)
> 14.5 Ohm injectors 0.32A each at cruise (32% duty cycle, 10 GPH)
> I plan to put both EFI+I systems (pri and bak) on one engine bus and the current
draw is less than 20A (15A with both pumps and coils running for low altitude;
8.2A with one coil and one pump running in current conservation mode).
> I'm planning on an adaptation of Z-101 which is simpler than Z-14 and IMO just
as reliable.
> It would be simpler and more reliable to have separate toggle switches for the
main and aux fuel pumps and eliminate the fuel pressure switch.
> The fuel pressure switch is called NO; I would think that means it is open when
there is no fuel pressure so the logic is backwards.
> You mentioned dwg 1.04 but attached 1.00.
*** Simpler to operate / I don't beleive so, the way it is now I have 2 subset
of components that can be killed independantly if needed using a simple OFF/ECU
1/ECU 2/BOTH key switch.
*** Low pressure fuel swtich / This model is electrically normally open, So it
is the correct one.
*** 50 amp is more than an engine bus requires / Agreed. I just added up the breaker
values suggested by EFII, but your values are in line with what I came up
with.
*** Z101 - I had the 12e edition book, was not aware of Z101.
*** 1.04 vs 1.00 diagram / Will have to check that one.
Again, thanks a lot for your time,
I'm keeping an open mind regarding all your commnents, so don't interpret anything
I said as definitive. Sorry I'm French, can't say it better than this!
Eric
--------
Eric D
Cozy IIIx C-GEDZ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496591#496591
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Looking for help finalysing my Cozy's electrical |
system
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
Schematics in the Aeroelectric Connection book have been revised since the book
was assembled. And at least in the case of Z-101 a schematic has been added.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/
Some other links to files Bob Nuckolls has online:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Books/Connection/
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/
http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/ Z schematic PDFs are in subfolder "Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs"
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Accidents/
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u6GeZo6pmBWsKykLNVQMvu4o1VEVyP4K
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496592#496592
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bean <jimbean6(at)optimum.net> |
| Subject: | DB pin crimper question |
Bob,
Many years ago you supplied some crimpers for sale. I am still using mine.
I seem to remember (it is nearly 20 years) that you had to make some
adjustments before selling them.
I see that Newark is advertising the same crimper today.
I am interested to know if these crimpers need the same adjustments.
If so I would like to know what it is before recommending them to a friend.
cheers Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: FUSES or CIRCUIT BREAKERS IN SERIES |
>Without extensive testing, it is not known if a short
>circuit in a load circuit will blow the main fuse in addition to the
>load fuse,
>even if the fuses are different sizes.
It's easily predicted. Circuit protective devices of
all stripes have plots of trip response times vs.
current draw.
Hair dryers have fuses built in. The wall socket
used to supply the hair dryer is protected with
a breaker at the box. The box feeders may have
a main breaker that supplies both buses via
feeders that come into the house. The pole-transformer
is probably fitted with a fuse at the HI-side
of the primary tap to the neighborhood distribution
feeder . . . and so it goes.
From hair dryer to gas-fired turbine, there are
perhaps dozens of circuit protective devices all
of which are in series. But to be sure, they are
tailored to anticipated loads vs. trip times
under fault conditions.
Careful crafting of this protective 'ladder'
components prevents a short in your microwave
from throwing the whole neighborhood into darkness.
>There is a reason why most aircraft
>electrical systems do not have a fuse protecting the main power bus.
>If that fuse blows, the whole electrical system goes down.
It's true that feeder protection is rare in light aircraft.
Not so rare in heavier singles and twins (See attached
picture of A36 firewall circa 1995) and quite common
in aircraft like the B787.
But to be sure, any circuit protective device
situated upstream of another CPD will be an
order of magnitude more robust than its downstream
brother.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DB pin crimper question |
At 04:43 PM 6/1/2020, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
>Many years ago you supplied some crimpers for sale. I am still using mine.
>
>I seem to remember (it is nearly 20 years) that you had to make some
>
>adjustments before selling them.
>
>I see that Newark is advertising the same crimper today.
>
>I am interested to know if these crimpers need the same adjustments.
>
>If so I would like to know what it is before recommending them to a friend.
Those tools are commonly sold for crimping 20AWG
pins. I discovered that they would also apply
22AWG pins if a new positioner were crafted to
lift the smaller pin about 0.040" in the pocket.
I sold about 150 of the 22AWG adapters to Steinair.
Unmodified tools perform as expected with
20AWG pins.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com> |
| Subject: | Re: FUSES or CIRCUIT BREAKERS IN SERIES |
In electric power, it=99s called relay coordination. Sometimes they ge
t it wrong, and the northeast is plunged into darkness for days... 9 months l
ater, birth rate jumps!
Paul
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 1, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelec
tric.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
>>
>> Without extensive testing, it is not known if a short
>> circuit in a load circuit will blow the main fuse in addition to the load
fuse,
>> even if the fuses are different sizes.
>
> It's easily predicted. Circuit protective devices of
> all stripes have plots of trip response times vs.
> current draw.
>
> Hair dryers have fuses built in. The wall socket
> used to supply the hair dryer is protected with
> a breaker at the box. The box feeders may have
> a main breaker that supplies both buses via
> feeders that come into the house. The pole-transformer
> is probably fitted with a fuse at the HI-side
> of the primary tap to the neighborhood distribution
> feeder . . . and so it goes.
>
> =46rom hair dryer to gas-fired turbine, there are
> perhaps dozens of circuit protective devices all
> of which are in series. But to be sure, they are
> tailored to anticipated loads vs. trip times
> under fault conditions.
>
> Careful crafting of this protective 'ladder'
> components prevents a short in your microwave
> from throwing the whole neighborhood into darkness.
>
>> There is a reason why most aircraft
>> electrical systems do not have a fuse protecting the main power bus.
>> If that fuse blows, the whole electrical system goes down.
>
> It's true that feeder protection is rare in light aircraft.
> Not so rare in heavier singles and twins (See attached
> picture of A36 firewall circa 1995) and quite common
> in aircraft like the B787.
>
> But to be sure, any circuit protective device
> situated upstream of another CPD will be an
> order of magnitude more robust than its downstream
> brother.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | West Mountain Radio Battery analyzer being retired |
I'm retiring a West Mountain Radio battery
runner-downer test set. This venerable beast
has tested many a battery over the years and
still works fine. This device also functions
as a single-channel data acquisition system
for taking voltage samples over long periods
of time.
It was used to produce this comparative
study of a variety of AA alkaline cells:
https://tinyurl.com/yddfoasp
I've upgraded to a model IV with some advanced
software features.
Suggest you review the owner's manual which
you can obtain at:
http://www.westmountainradio.com/pdf/CBA_Manual_V2.pdf
Software is also available at:
http://www.westmountainradio.com/content.php?page=wmr-downloads
offer includes the supporting usb cable.
First $70 offer gets it mailed to US address
via priority mail. As with all AEC offers,
100% satisfaction guaranteed.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DB pin crimper question |
| From: | "dj_theis" <djtheis58(at)gmail.com> |
Is this the crimper yall speak of?
https://www.steinair.com/product/4-way-indent-crimper/
Steinair indicates for small jobs it is sufficient but for larger projects the
high buck DMC is encouraged.
20 years seems to be a pretty reasonably long description of a small job and if
I can do quality work with the more modest tool, Id be inclined to use the savings
for other tools and toys.
Dan Theis
--------
Scratch building Sonex #1362
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496603#496603
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DB pin crimper question |
| From: | Ron Walker <n520tx(at)gmail.com> |
Yep - that's it.
The DMC one is awesome, but that little red one is decent for it's
price. Takes a couple of squeezes to get the right "feel" and not over
crimp.
--Ron
On 6/2/20 12:02 PM, dj_theis wrote:
>
> Is this the crimper yall speak of?
>
> https://www.steinair.com/product/4-way-indent-crimper/
>
> Steinair indicates for small jobs it is sufficient but for larger projects the
high buck DMC is encouraged.
>
> 20 years seems to be a pretty reasonably long description of a small job and
if I can do quality work with the more modest tool, Id be inclined to use the
savings for other tools and toys.
>
> Dan Theis
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DB pin crimper question |
| From: | Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> |
I actually wrote up my experience with this tool back in 2010.
I never did get a high dollar crimper and still consider this little
tool to create very reliable crimps. These barrel type d-sub pins are
the way to go.
Bill Watson Kitlog Entry
<http://www.mykitlog.com/users/category.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&category=6577>
On 6/1/2020 11:08 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 04:43 PM 6/1/2020, you wrote:
>
>> Bob,
>>
>> Many years ago you supplied some crimpers for sale. I am still using
>> mine.
>>
>> I seem to remember (it is nearly 20 years) that you had to make some
>>
>> adjustments before selling them.
>>
>> I see that Newark is advertising the same crimper today.
>>
>> I am interested to know if these crimpers need the same adjustments.
>>
>> If so I would like to know what it is before recommending them to a
>> friend.
>
> Those tools are commonly sold for crimping 20AWG
> pins. I discovered that they would also apply
> 22AWG pins if a new positioner were crafted to
> lift the smaller pin about 0.040" in the pocket.
>
> I sold about 150 of the 22AWG adapters to Steinair.
> Unmodified tools perform as expected with
> 20AWG pins.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: West Mountain Radio Battery analyzer being retired |
Hello Bob, if it's still available I'd like to purchase the battery
analyser.
On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 8:42 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> I'm retiring a West Mountain Radio battery
> runner-downer test set. This venerable beast
> has tested many a battery over the years and
> still works fine. This device also functions
> as a single-channel data acquisition system
> for taking voltage samples over long periods
> of time.
>
> It was used to produce this comparative
> study of a variety of AA alkaline cells:
>
> https://tinyurl.com/yddfoasp
>
> I've upgraded to a model IV with some advanced
> software features.
>
> Suggest you review the owner's manual which
> you can obtain at:
>
> http://www.westmountainradio.com/pdf/CBA_Manual_V2.pdf
>
> Software is also available at:
>
> http://www.westmountainradio.com/content.php?page=wmr-downloads
>
> offer includes the supporting usb cable.
>
> First $70 offer gets it mailed to US address
> via priority mail. As with all AEC offers,
> 100% satisfaction guaranteed.
>
>
> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DB pin crimper question |
| From: | Rick Beebe <rick(at)beebe.org> |
I bought the similar looking one from B&C and it works great, first
squeeze every time. I bought an identical one from ebay so that I could
tweak the adjustment knob for the tiny pins in high-density connectors.
It was a couple dollars less expensive.
--Rick
On 6/2/2020 1:34 PM, Ron Walker wrote:
>
> Yep - that's it.
>
> The DMC one is awesome, but that little red one is decent for it's
> price. Takes a couple of squeezes to get the right "feel" and not over
> crimp.
>
> --Ron
>
> On 6/2/20 12:02 PM, dj_theis wrote:
>>
>>
>> Is this the crimper yall speak of?
>>
>> https://www.steinair.com/product/4-way-indent-crimper/
>>
>> Steinair indicates for small jobs it is sufficient but for larger
>> projects the high buck DMC is encouraged.
>>
>> 20 years seems to be a pretty reasonably long description of a
>> small job and if I can do quality work with the more modest
>> tool, Id be inclined to use the savings for other tools and toys.
>>
>> Dan Theis
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DB pin crimper question |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
Someone mentioned earlier about an adapter that controls the amount of
squeeze for #22 wire, vs #20. Perhaps there is more than one type of
inexpensive dSub crimper out there, but the red handled one I have
(looks identical to the pics posted earlier) uses a different insert for
*high density* pins. As near as I can tell, the insert only controls how
deep the pin inserts into the tool, which controls the point on the
barrel that is crimped. On mine, the actual crimp action is unaffected
by changing the insert. I rarely change the insert when crimping the
occasional hi density pin; I just manually keep the pin from going too
deep in the crimper. I've never noticed any quality difference in #20 vs
#22 wire.
One of my favorite scifi authors, who also wrote for Byte Magazine back
when personal computers were a new thing, used to say that 'better is
the enemy of good enough'. It's really hard to imagine justifying a
$300+ tool for a job that a $30 tool does just fine, short of a true
production environment. But that's just me....
Charlie
On 6/2/2020 6:44 PM, Rick Beebe wrote:
>
> I bought the similar looking one from B&C and it works great, first
> squeeze every time. I bought an identical one from ebay so that I
> could tweak the adjustment knob for the tiny pins in high-density
> connectors. It was a couple dollars less expensive.
>
> --Rick
>
> On 6/2/2020 1:34 PM, Ron Walker wrote:
>>
>> Yep - that's it.
>>
>> The DMC one is awesome, but that little red one is decent for it's
>> price. Takes a couple of squeezes to get the right "feel" and not
>> over crimp.
>>
>> --Ron
>>
>> On 6/2/20 12:02 PM, dj_theis wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Is this the crimper yall speak of?
>>>
>>> https://www.steinair.com/product/4-way-indent-crimper/
>>>
>>> Steinair indicates for small jobs it is sufficient but for larger
>>> projects the high buck DMC is encouraged.
>>>
>>> 20 years seems to be a pretty reasonably long description of a
>>> small job and if I can do quality work with the more modest
>>> tool, Id be inclined to use the savings for other tools and toys.
>>>
>>> Dan Theis
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DB pin crimper question |
| From: | Rick Beebe <rick(at)beebe.org> |
I looked forward to Jerry Pournelle's column every month. Even after
Byte went all digital.
A guru in the EV world uses a variant on that saying that I like better.
"Perfect is the enemy of progress."
I just finished a 6 month project re-wiring my entire panel so having
the two crimpers was a time-saver. The adjustment is just how far the
pin goes in. But I'm with you, I can't see the point of spending $300 on
a tool like that.
--RIck
On 6/2/2020 8:21 PM, Charlie England wrote:
> Someone mentioned earlier about an adapter that controls the amount of
> squeeze for #22 wire, vs #20. Perhaps there is more than one type of
> inexpensive dSub crimper out there, but the red handled one I have
> (looks identical to the pics posted earlier) uses a different insert
> for *high density* pins. As near as I can tell, the insert only
> controls how deep the pin inserts into the tool, which controls the
> point on the barrel that is crimped. On mine, the actual crimp action
> is unaffected by changing the insert. I rarely change the insert when
> crimping the occasional hi density pin; I just manually keep the pin
> from going too deep in the crimper. I've never noticed any quality
> difference in #20 vs #22 wire.
>
> One of my favorite scifi authors, who also wrote for Byte Magazine
> back when personal computers were a new thing, used to say that
> 'better is the enemy of good enough'. It's really hard to imagine
> justifying a $300+ tool for a job that a $30 tool does just fine,
> short of a true production environment. But that's just me....
>
>
>
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: West Mountain Radio Battery analyzer being retired |
At 06:34 PM 6/2/2020, you wrote:
>Hello Bob, if it's still available I'd like to purchase the battery analyser.
very good sir. it's yours. I'll get a PayPal
invoice off to you shortly. I think you'll
enjoy the insights this tool will offer
as to battery quality.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Looking for help finalysing my Cozy's electrical |
system
| From: | "Zoom2136" <zoom2136(at)yahoo.com> |
OK, I revisited one of my previous diagrams and went back to dividing components
between EB1 and EB2 instead of controlling them through various relays.
This division will allow me to shut down a subset of components by killing either
EB1 (shutting off ECU 1, TOP COIL & MAIN FUEL PUMP) or EB2 (shutting off EC2,
BOTTOM COIL, AUX FUEL PUMP).
The injector selection and P-LEAD grounding is still controlled through a standard
OFF/1/2/BOTH key switch and a single changeover relay.
I've also changed the power path to the AUX FUEL PUMP. By changing the low pressure
switch power source from EB2 to EB1, if the fuel pumps DPDT switch fails,
the AUX FUEL PUMP will still be powered through the previously mentioned low
pressure switch. That should solve the single point of failure issue of having
both fuel pumps powered through one switch,
--------
Eric D
Cozy IIIx C-GEDZ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496612#496612
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/diagram_v211_fuel__ignition__backup_oil__deb_555.png
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: West Mountain Radio Battery analyzer being retired |
Thank you Bob. I actually have two dozen AAs I have been meaning to sort
through so this will be perfect.
I don't have paypal. Could I send you a cheque? Also I cannot pick boxes up
from my US shipping address at the moment, any chance you can price out
USPS to Burnaby BC V3N 4K6?
I might be able to set up paypal if that's the only way.
On Tue, Jun 2, 2020, 19:06 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 06:34 PM 6/2/2020, you wrote:
>
> Hello Bob, if it's still available I'd like to purchase the battery
> analyser.
>
>
> very good sir. it's yours. I'll get a PayPal
> invoice off to you shortly. I think you'll
> enjoy the insights this tool will offer
> as to battery quality.
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: West Mountain Radio Battery analyzer being retired |
At 09:44 PM 6/2/2020, you wrote:
>Thank you Bob. I actually have two dozen AAs I have been meaning to
>sort through so this will be perfect.
>
>I don't have paypal. Could I send you a cheque? Also I cannot pick
>boxes up from my US shipping address at the moment, any chance you
>can price out USPS to Burnaby BC V3N 4K6?
>
>I might be able to set up paypal if that's the only way.
You don't need to set up anything in PayPal.
PayPal is my portal for processing credit/debit
card payments. When you get the invoice, click
the 'pay' button and enter the requested info.
No further attention on your part is needed.
Let me look into the postage to your Canadian
address. Shoot me your address. Mail directly to
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com as opposed to
posting to the List.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Looking for help finalysing my Cozy's electrical |
system
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
Re v1.04 and v2.11 and in light of my experience applying SDS EFI+I to Z-101 (one
batt, dual alternator).
Questions:
What is the EFII System 32 Injector Power Module? Is that something EFII supplies?
It shows the injectors grounded/always on which of course is not the case.
Does the automatic aux pump feature come from EFII? I was thinking it comes with
Bus Manager which you are not using so I was thinking you designed this feature.
Is there a need for powering the injectors select relay from EB1? If EB1 is off,
ECU 1 is off.
Is the flyback diode built in to the relay?
What injectors are used? SDS uses 14.5 ohm "saturation" injectors.
IMO:
Removing the injector auto fail over and coil select relays of v2.10 was a good
idea. No need to buy, install, preflight, explain and remember functionality,
fewer failure points.
The automatic pump feature is not required. No switch SPOF, no diodes, no pressure
switch. Run both pumps at low altitude (which is legacy training). If the
engine stops at cruise altitude, the crew:
Moves the injectors to the bku ECU.
Turns the bku fuel pump on.
Opens alternate air.
Checks fuel.
Restarts with starter or windmill.
Ignition switch function is confusing because when it's on both you have both coils
but injectors are on ECU 1. There's no way to fire both coils and have the
injectors on ECU 2 (a good idea in any case and may be required for fine-tuning
ECU 2 although EFII seems to say this is not the case). Assuming EB 1 and
EB 2 are both powered:
Off - boths coils disabled, injectors will fire from ECU 2
Right - bottom coil disabled, injectors will fire from ECU 1
Left - top coil disabled, injectors will fire from ECU 2
Both - both coils enabled, injectors will fire from ECU 1
Delete key switch and relay, use toggle switches for P lead 1, P lead 2, injector
enable (SPDT). Or if you really want the key, use it for ignition only and
replace the relay with toggle switch.
Replace 2A fuses with 5A so you stock one less size.
The batteries and the engine are in the back. Power EB 1 and EB 2 with relays in
the spirit of FAR 23.1361. The feeds can be unprotected if short or you can
use a MIDI 23 or 16 awg fuse link wire on 12 awg feeder.
Notes:
Injectors:
I don't know the awg of the fuse links at the individual injectors or the the one
in the common wire but they do nothing (24 awg melts at 29A). A short to ground
anywhere will blow the fuses and you will lose all injectors. I don't know
how to justify powering all injectors thru one path. Seems likely a three cylinder
engine will hold altitude.
The 5A fuse is too small for four injectors. The injectors might run up to 85%
duty cycle in normal circumstances which means 3.4A. At 100% they will draw 4A.
Better make them 10 A or even 15A.
I plan to use individual 5A fuses, one per injector. This leads Z-14 to an injector
bus after the diodes, un-fused short wires from EB1 and EB2 to injector bus.
Z-101 shows an engine bus instead.
I have a different unerstanding of switch contacts "normally open" and "normally
closed" compared to you. Relay terminal 87a is normally closed, opens when the
relay is energized. Edelbrock pressure switch 72213 is normally open, closes
with pressure.
Coilpacks:
I assume the coilpacks have integral drivers and their connections to the ECUs
(not shown) are logic states.
It looks like EFII uses the same Subaru coils SDS uses. (EFII uses three coils
in six cylinder applications, one of which fires top and bottom of cylinders 5
and 6. SDS uses two coils on six-cylinder engines, on top, one bottom.)
I'm taking SDS' advice of separate fuses for each coil, each 10A.
Fuel pumps:
Yes, failure of the DPDT fuel pump switch in such a way as to stop both fuel pumps
is highly unlikely. The switch would have to fall apart. I mention it as an
SPOF but not the highest priority SPOF (the highest priority SPOF is to power
the injectors independently).
It looks like EFII is using the same pumps SDS uses, Walbro GSL393.
I'm taking SDS' advice of separate fuses for each pump, each 15A.
I normally expect the left ECU to be primary. Is that just me?
The main alternator only needs 6 awg, or even the 8 awg shown in Z-101.
The aux alternator only needs 10 awg and its ANL could be 35A.
You could use the physically smaller MIDIs from Littlefuse instead of ANLs. You
could also use fuse link wire as shown in Z-101.
Wires to crossfeed contactor and starter can be 4 awg.
Batteries are labeled EXT; I assume you mean ETX.
Battery temp sensors are not normally used with batt in engine or passenger compartment.
The aux alternator field should have a 5A CB versus a fuse because it has crowbar
OV protection.
In case it's instructive, my implementation of Z-101 with SDS EFI+I is one of the
PDFs in the Google Drive folder linked from my signature. Also in there is
a schematic of the SDS system. SDS uses relays to move the injector minus leads
from pri to bak ECU drivers versus the EFII injector driver enable ECU inputs.
I gather EFII connects the pri and bak drivers in parallel and disables one
or the other intenal to the ECUs.
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u6GeZo6pmBWsKykLNVQMvu4o1VEVyP4K
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496615#496615
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Looking for help finalysing my Cozy's electrical |
system
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
Re v1.04 and v2.11
Hi Eric,
I mis-spoke about switching power to EB 1 and EB 2 with relays to meet FAR 23.1361.
You already meet FAR 23.1361 with the two battery contactors.
When I was considering Z-14 for my SDS EFI+I equipped RV-6A, I wanted to be able
to kill both battery contactors in a smoke in the cockpit situation and still
have the engine running:
This led to an always hot engine bus diode OR'd from both batteries.
If you would like to reference my Z-14, it is called "Electrical Schematic RV-6A
with SDS dual EM-5-F rev G" in the Archive folder of my files.
SDS requires coilpack power to be switched whereas EFII has the P-lead input to
the ECUs. For FAR 23.1361 you could leave the P-leads unconnected and relay switch
the coilpacks.
The always hot nature of the engine bus and the items attached to it that are not
relay switched presents a danger in service and crash scenarios. With Z-101
the only thing always hot that's remote from the battery is the backup alternator
and one could choose to add a relay to it.
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u6GeZo6pmBWsKykLNVQMvu4o1VEVyP4K
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496617#496617
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Looking for help finalysing my Cozy's electrical |
system
At 11:39 PM 5/31/2020, you wrote:
>
>
>Single points of failure:
>All four injectors are powered by one reley, wire, and fuse link.
>Both pumps are powered thru the same switch.
Agreed. Will the engine run if one injector
becomes inop? Suggest separate switches for
each fuel pump. Ditch the 'auto' feature'
>Questions:
>The injectors have fuse links in the harness. Are they sized so they
>won't pop the one fuse link that feeds all four injectors?
>What happens if both injector enable inputs are un-grounded?
>Why are there relays for removing power from the coils?
Strive to reduce relays to minimum. I recall
seeing this installation published somewhere.
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Too_Many_Relays.jpg
. . . mind boggling.
>What is the EFII Syst 32 Inj Pwr Module? I would have thought each
>ECU box has open collector injector drivers inside.
>Will the automatic aux pump feature result in a relaxation
>oscillator? (No pressure, pump on... now we have pressure, pump off, repeat.)
>Where are the batteries located?
>Thoughts/IMO:
>It would be simpler to have separate toggle switches for left and
>right coil "P-Leads".
Agreed
>It wouild be simpler to have an SPDT switch for injector enable
>grounds like EFII illustrates but what is the effect if the ground
>is lost to both injector enables?
Something to sort out . . . potential
single point of failure.
>I don't know how to have faith in Bus Manager (I know you mentioned
>you are not using Bus Manager) or EFII in general when they show
>un-necessary SPOFs that will stop the engine. Ref EFII Dwg 9 rev
>5/19 that you attached.
How about a Z101 engine bus? It's already
managed.
>50A is more than an engine bus requires. I am planning on dual four
>cylinder SDS EFI+I on O-360 and my calculations show:
>ECU 0.13A
Agreed
>Coilpack 1.1A at cruise
>Fuel pump 5.25A at 45 PSI (Walbro GSL393)
>14.5 Ohm injectors 0.32A each at cruise (32% duty cycle, 10 GPH)
>I plan to put both EFI+I systems (pri and bak) on one engine bus and
>the current draw is less than 20A (15A with both pumps and coils
>running for low altitude; 8.2A with one coil and one pump running in
>current conservation mode).
>I'm planning on an adaptation of Z-101 which is simpler than Z-14
>and IMO just as reliable.
>It would be simpler and more reliable to have separate toggle
>switches for the main and aux fuel pumps and eliminate the fuel
>pressure switch.
>The fuel pressure switch is called NO; I would think that means it
>is open when there is no fuel pressure so the logic is backwards.
>You mentioned dwg 1.04 but attached 1.00.
Wire and fusing sizes depicted are
not clear as to design goals. Diode
-ored power sources should locate
diodes at the load end of each feed.
As shown, faults downstream of diodes
would take out both feeders. Fusible
links are not useful here . . . in fact,
any fault that would open a fusible link
would take out both fuses.
The drawing is exceedingly 'busy'. A three
source, dual feed engine bus can replace
un-necessary 'redundancy' . . . offers opportunity
for each load to enjoy its own protected
feeder thus maximizing failure tolerance
while reducing system costs, weight and parts
count.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DB pin crimper question |
| From: | Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> |
This discussion is helping my memory.
To put a finer point on my previously posted Kitlog entries, the problem
was that the insert I had allowed the standard density pin to be
inserted too far. I had to stuff it with 'something' so that the pin
would stop at the right height to get the crimps in the right place
consistently..
Interestingly, if the only difference between the standard and high
density pin inserts is the depth, then the batch of 'bad' crimpers might
have just had the high density insert.
that would be consistent with Charlie England's observations (I thought
the difference may have been diameter but have zero experience with the
HD pins).
Agree that AWG20 and 22 wire work fine. AWG24 benefits from a 2X strip
and being doubled over. ( I recall that some of the electric trim or AP
products user #24)
In the end, the red handled crimper is a cost effective and reliable
tool in my 10+ years of off and on usage.
On 6/2/2020 8:21 PM, Charlie England wrote:
> Someone mentioned earlier about an adapter that controls the amount of
> squeeze for #22 wire, vs #20. Perhaps there is more than one type of
> inexpensive dSub crimper out there, but the red handled one I have
> (looks identical to the pics posted earlier) uses a different insert
> for *high density* pins. As near as I can tell, the insert only
> controls how deep the pin inserts into the tool, which controls the
> point on the barrel that is crimped. On mine, the actual crimp action
> is unaffected by changing the insert. I rarely change the insert when
> crimping the occasional hi density pin; I just manually keep the pin
> from going too deep in the crimper. I've never noticed any quality
> difference in #20 vs #22 wire.
>
> One of my favorite scifi authors, who also wrote for Byte Magazine
> back when personal computers were a new thing, used to say that
> 'better is the enemy of good enough'. It's really hard to imagine
> justifying a $300+ tool for a job that a $30 tool does just fine,
> short of a true production environment. But that's just me....
>
> Charlie
>
> On 6/2/2020 6:44 PM, Rick Beebe wrote:
>>
>> I bought the similar looking one from B&C and it works great, first
>> squeeze every time. I bought an identical one from ebay so that I
>> could tweak the adjustment knob for the tiny pins in high-density
>> connectors. It was a couple dollars less expensive.
>>
>> --Rick
>>
>> On 6/2/2020 1:34 PM, Ron Walker wrote:
>>>
>>> Yep - that's it.
>>>
>>> The DMC one is awesome, but that little red one is decent for it's
>>> price. Takes a couple of squeezes to get the right "feel" and not
>>> over crimp.
>>>
>>> --Ron
>>>
>>> On 6/2/20 12:02 PM, dj_theis wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is this the crimper yall speak of?
>>>>
>>>> https://www.steinair.com/product/4-way-indent-crimper/
>>>>
>>>> Steinair indicates for small jobs it is sufficient but for larger
>>>> projects the high buck DMC is encouraged.
>>>>
>>>> 20 years seems to be a pretty reasonably long description of a
>>>> small job and if I can do quality work with the more modest
>>>> tool, Id be inclined to use the savings for other tools and toys.
>>>>
>>>> Dan Theis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>
>
>
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DB pin crimper question |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
I'd suspect that you just got a defective positioner. The HD pins don't
go into the tool as deep as the standard pins; that's how I'm able to do
HD pins without swapping the positioner.
Agree on doubling #24, on the rare occasions I've used it (typically
stuff with fly leads, where you don't have a choice).
Charlie
On 6/4/2020 9:12 AM, Bill Watson wrote:
> This discussion is helping my memory.
>
> To put a finer point on my previously posted Kitlog entries, the
> problem was that the insert I had allowed the standard density pin to
> be inserted too far. I had to stuff it with 'something' so that the
> pin would stop at the right height to get the crimps in the right
> place consistently..
>
> Interestingly, if the only difference between the standard and high
> density pin inserts is the depth, then the batch of 'bad' crimpers
> might have just had the high density insert.
> that would be consistent with Charlie England's observations (I
> thought the difference may have been diameter but have zero experience
> with the HD pins).
>
> Agree that AWG20 and 22 wire work fine. AWG24 benefits from a 2X
> strip and being doubled over. ( I recall that some of the electric
> trim or AP products user #24)
>
> In the end, the red handled crimper is a cost effective and reliable
> tool in my 10+ years of off and on usage.
>
> On 6/2/2020 8:21 PM, Charlie England wrote:
>> Someone mentioned earlier about an adapter that controls the amount
>> of squeeze for #22 wire, vs #20. Perhaps there is more than one type
>> of inexpensive dSub crimper out there, but the red handled one I have
>> (looks identical to the pics posted earlier) uses a different insert
>> for *high density* pins. As near as I can tell, the insert only
>> controls how deep the pin inserts into the tool, which controls the
>> point on the barrel that is crimped. On mine, the actual crimp action
>> is unaffected by changing the insert. I rarely change the insert when
>> crimping the occasional hi density pin; I just manually keep the pin
>> from going too deep in the crimper. I've never noticed any quality
>> difference in #20 vs #22 wire.
>>
>> One of my favorite scifi authors, who also wrote for Byte Magazine
>> back when personal computers were a new thing, used to say that
>> 'better is the enemy of good enough'. It's really hard to imagine
>> justifying a $300+ tool for a job that a $30 tool does just fine,
>> short of a true production environment. But that's just me....
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>> On 6/2/2020 6:44 PM, Rick Beebe wrote:
>>>
>>> I bought the similar looking one from B&C and it works great, first
>>> squeeze every time. I bought an identical one from ebay so that I
>>> could tweak the adjustment knob for the tiny pins in high-density
>>> connectors. It was a couple dollars less expensive.
>>>
>>> --Rick
>>>
>>> On 6/2/2020 1:34 PM, Ron Walker wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yep - that's it.
>>>>
>>>> The DMC one is awesome, but that little red one is decent for it's
>>>> price. Takes a couple of squeezes to get the right "feel" and not
>>>> over crimp.
>>>>
>>>> --Ron
>>>>
>>>> On 6/2/20 12:02 PM, dj_theis wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this the crimper yall speak of?
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.steinair.com/product/4-way-indent-crimper/
>>>>>
>>>>> Steinair indicates for small jobs it is sufficient but for larger
>>>>> projects the high buck DMC is encouraged.
>>>>>
>>>>> 20 years seems to be a pretty reasonably long description of a
>>>>> small job and if I can do quality work with the more modest
>>>>> tool, Id be inclined to use the savings for other tools and toys.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dan Theis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>>
>>
>>
>> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
>
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Neal George <neal.george(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Connector Shells |
Gentlemen -
I need some of the metal connector shells for a GNS530.
Anybody have part number equivalents for Digikey, Mouser, etc?
Neal George
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | LiFePo compatible trickle charger |
I had been looking for a trickle charger to keep my LiFePo battery alive, a
nd even top it off.=C2- N167EZ is living on the ramp right now, so I don'
t have access to an outlet.=C2- Most of the solar trickle chargers I was
able to find would generate a max voltage of over 18V, and that will kill t
he battery maintainence system (BMS) in a LiFePo.=C2- I finally found the
panel in the link below.=C2- It is advertised as, and I have confirmed,
that it maxes out at 14.4V.=C2- It only put out .38A short circuited when
I tested it on later afternoon.=C2-
This unit is a piece of flexible plastic, with the solar cells printed on o
ne side.=C2- I used some stick on velcro to=C2- attach it to my canopy
cover.=C2- Got the velcro from Walmart.=C2- $9 for 4ft of it.=C2- 2'
wide, and be careful where you appy it, cause it ain't coming off.=C2- I
run the cord inside to my always hot cigarette lighter plug.=C2- Maybe I
should switch up to a dedicated exterior plug?
Will .38A charge the battery?=C2- If it were completely drained I'd need
18AH.=C2- I need a little less than 3hrs to get 1AH, and there are 9 good
hours of sun per day.=C2- So it would take six sunny days to put a full
charge on the battery.=C2- All I would ever expect it to do is keep the b
attery topped off, though.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07B6L5Y3N/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o
02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Looking for help finalysing my Cozy's electrical |
system
| From: | "prestonkavanagh" <preston.kavanagh(at)gmail.com> |
John
Thanks for sharing the several documents. Im building a Cozy IV, and about to
start the plumbing and wiring, planning on an SDS system. This should be darn
helpful in thinking through the issues. Regards, PK
--------
PBK3
PA-12, BD-4, RV6a, gliders
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496632#496632
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Looking for help finalysing my Cozy's electrical |
system
| From: | "Zoom2136" <zoom2136(at)yahoo.com> |
Hi Mr Nuckolls,
Thank you for taking the time to comment on my electrical system, it's much appreciated.
I've taken notes of your comments and have a few questions. I've made
some changes to my diagrams that go against some of your recommendations, but
please know that they are more to illustrate my ideas than a design decision
on my part.
Again, I really appreciate you and Jonhbright's taking time to help me with this
project.
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
>
>
> Will the engine run if one injector becomes inop? Suggest separate switches for
each fuel pump. Ditch the 'auto' feature'
Yes, the engine will run rough with one injector not firing, but it will run. This
would require to land ASAP though...
OK for the switches, but this is a Cozy with everything in the back, would it be
better to have short runs of higher amp wires kept to a minimum and switch EB1
& EB2 with relays? Same logic would apply to the MAIN & AUX FUEL PUMP that
could be powered through dedicated relays? Would having dedicated relays (4) mitigate
the risk of using relays instead of 4 SPST switches?
> Questions:
> Strive to reduce relays to minimum.
Agreed, but what about what I've noted above? In my mind I could run a pair of
22 AWG wires with inline 5A fuses from each battery from the FW to SPST switches
at the IP and back to 2 relays powering EB1 & EB2 located on the cabin side
of the FW. Or should a just run a pair of 14 AWG wires from the FW to switches
at the IP and back to the FW, a +/- 25 feet run? The same would apply to the
fuel pumps... Would it also make for more durable switches, with them carrying
less AMPs if they only have to carry the current required to energize the relay
coils?
> What is the EFII Syst 32 Inj Pwr Module? I would have thought each ECU box has
open collector injector drivers inside.
> Will the automatic aux pump feature result in a relaxation oscillator? (No pressure,
pump on... now we have pressure, pump off, repeat.)
> Where are the batteries located?
> Thoughts/IMO:
> It would be simpler to have separate toggle switches for left and right coil
"P-Leads".
> Agreed
In a Cozy (same as a Long EZ) everthing is in the back, including the batteries
which normally sit above the main wing spar at the FW.
P-Leads grounds have been omitted in v2.12 as the ECU are powered directly from
either EB1 or EB2 and they are turned off by killing either engine bus. No need
to ground them to stop their operation.
EFII PWR MODULE is a misnomer, it is a 1:4 wire part of a larger harness. There
is no fuse link is the single wire (my mistake), only in the smaller 4 wires
before each injector. So it is 15 amp breaker --- harness 1:4 wire --- fuse link
just before each injector.
EFFI does control directly the injector cycle via a harness, but power is supplied
to each injector via another 1:4 power wire mentionned before.
> It wouild be simpler to have an SPDT switch for injector enable grounds like
EFII illustrates but what is the effect if the ground is lost to both injector
enables?
> Something to sort out . . . potential
> single point of failure.
Yes, and because it is a long run from the ECU to the IP and back to the FW ground
block, I'm thinking of using a DPDT switch with 2 ground wires. So 2 complete
ground paths for these critical injector select ground wires. I beleive this
takes care of one SPOF unless the DPDT switch is a problem...
> I don't know how to have faith in Bus Manager (I know you mentioned you are not
using Bus Manager) or EFII in general when they show un-necessary SPOFs that
will stop the engine. Ref EFII Dwg 9 rev 5/19 that you attached.
> How about a Z101 engine bus? It's already
> managed.
I know we should not get fixated on an architecture, but I now have a good understanding
of Z14 and find it fits my needs. My original design had a dual feed
bus, but I prefer to have 2 independent engine bus that I can shut off 1 at a
time to kill a complete subsystem (ECU, COIL & 1 FUEL PUMP) quickly with only
having to make sure that the proper FUEL PUMP is ON prior to flipping a single
switch.
> 50A is more than an engine bus requires. I am planning on dual four cylinder
SDS EFI+I on O-360 and my calculations show:
> ECU 0.13A
> Agreed
Yes, this is why I changed them to 30A breakers. Would a pair of 35A ANL be better
since the engine buses are directly tied to the batteries?
> Coilpack 1.1A at cruise
> Fuel pump 5.25A at 45 PSI (Walbro GSL393)
> 14.5 Ohm injectors 0.32A each at cruise (32% duty cycle, 10 GPH)
> I plan to put both EFI+I systems (pri and bak) on one engine bus and the current
draw is less than 20A (15A with both pumps and coils running for low altitude;
8.2A with one coil and one pump running in current conservation mode).
> I'm planning on an adaptation of Z-101 which is simpler than Z-14 and IMO just
as reliable.
> It would be simpler and more reliable to have separate toggle switches for the
main and aux fuel pumps and eliminate the fuel pressure switch.
> The fuel pressure switch is called NO; I would think that means it is open when
there is no fuel pressure so the logic is backwards.
> You mentioned dwg 1.04 but attached 1.00.
>
> Wire and fusing sizes depicted are not clear as to design goals. Diode-ored power
sources should locate diodes at the load end of each feed. As shown, faults
downstream of diodes would take out both feeders. Fusible links are not useful
here . . . in fact, any fault that would open a fusible link would take out
both fuses.
>
> The drawing is exceedingly 'busy'. A three source, dual feed engine bus can replace
un-necessary 'redundancy' . . . offers opportunity for each load to enjoy
its own protected feeder thus maximizing failure tolerance while reducing system
costs, weight and parts count.
I've addressed your points (except changing the base architecture) in my latest
version v2.12 and I used a few relays. Wire sizing is going to be finalized in
a later version, because I have thousands of feets of 18AWG, so I've used it
a lot of tit in my diagrams even if it is oversized. As mentionned before, I've
also used a few relays due to my plane unique layout (always open to change
if relays are a definite no-no).
That being said, powering the injector is what I struggle the most with. In my
v2.12 diagram, I've replaced the 2 15A fuses by 15A breakers. Would having the
ability to reset a breaker in flight enough to mitigate the risk of a "dual breaker
pop"?
Alternatively, what I came up with is actually from an older design, it's "an automatic
fail over circuit" using a changeover relay with a push to test button
on its coil power path to be able to verify that both power paths are operational
while preflighting (see V1.00 Injector PWR Alternate). My reasoning (which
may be flawed) is that this way, 1 of the 2 15 amp breakers will always be
isolated if a fusible link blows. Now if this can cause a proble with the relay,
like welding the contacts, that I don't know.
Would this mitigate this issue, or should I just leave the 2 diodes and 2 15A breakers,
include an emergency check list item (reset injector breaker once?),
and be done with it.
--------
Eric D
Cozy IIIx C-GEDZ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496634#496634
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/diagram_v105_backbone_627.png
http://forums.matronics.com//files/diagram_v212_fuel__ignition__backup_oil__deb_914.png
http://forums.matronics.com//files/diagram_v100_injector_pwr_alternate_291.png
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Looking for help finalysing my Cozy's electrical |
system
| From: | "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com> |
prestonkavanagh wrote:
> John
>
> Thanks for sharing the several documents. Im building a Cozy IV, and about to
start the plumbing and wiring, planning on an SDS system. This should be darn
helpful in thinking through the issues. Regards, PK
You are welcome Preston. Feel free to contact me with questions or comments.
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u6GeZo6pmBWsKykLNVQMvu4o1VEVyP4K
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496635#496635
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Looking for help finalysing my Cozy's electrical |
system
| From: | "Zoom2136" <zoom2136(at)yahoo.com> |
I'ved moved the discussion to the other thread. Here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16775540
--------
Eric D
Cozy IIIx C-GEDZ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496636#496636
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Connector Shells |
What genre' of connector? I was thinking they were
high density d-subs?
I'll dig around in my install manuals and see
if I can confirm.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Connector Shells |
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 6/5/2020 4:05 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> What genre' of connector? I was thinking they were
> high density d-subs?
>
> I'll dig around in my install manuals and see
> if I can confirm.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
The 430 has both std & hi density connectors. the stock backshells are
apparently available from only one or two sources. Here's an ebay
listing with a pretty good pic:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/GNS430-GNS430W-GNS530-GNS530W-Connector-Kits-011-00351-00-/143440923345?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10
In my not so humble opinion, the backplane/connector arrangement is
almost enough reason, by itself, to avoid Garmin. A real nightmare
dealing with the tiny screws using a foot long screwdriver reaching into
the back of the tray...
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Connector Shells |
Looking at one I have left over from an Avidyne install, here=99s the m
ouser page for the connector. I=99m pretty sure you can track down the
back shell from this:
https://www.mouser.ca/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity/204521-2
TE part code 204521-2
On Jun 4, 2020, at 14:50, Neal George wrote:
mail.com>
Gentlemen -
I need some of the metal connector shells for a GNS530.
Anybody have part number equivalents for Digikey, Mouser, etc?
Neal George
==========================
========
==========================
========
==========================
========
==========================
========
==========================
========
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Connector Shells |
Here=99s a size 5 back shell that would fit the 78 pin connector:
https://www.mouser.ca/ProductDetail/Amphenol-Pcd/M85049-48-2-5F?qs=GaJ26EW
JkZTRGEGAZKUsJA%3D%3D
I=99m fairly sure the shell sizes are standard so you can mix and matc
h. At the least, the dimensioned drawings are available to check.
On Jun 5, 2020, at 19:56, Alec Myers wrote:
=EF=BB
Looking at one I have left over from an Avidyne install, here=99s the m
ouser page for the connector. I=99m pretty sure you can track down the
back shell from this:
https://www.mouser.ca/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity/204521-2
TE part code 204521-2
On Jun 4, 2020, at 14:50, Neal George wrote:
mail.com>
Gentlemen -
I need some of the metal connector shells for a GNS530.
Anybody have part number equivalents for Digikey, Mouser, etc?
Neal Georg======================
====bsp; - The AeroElectric-List Email ========
==========================
==================; - MATRONICS WE
B FORUMS -
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Neal George <neal.george(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Connector Shells |
Agreed, but we=99re stuck with it for now.
Found a connector kit on eBay...
Neal George
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 5, 2020, at 6:51 PM, Charlie England wrote:
=EF=BB
On 6/5/2020 4:05 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> What genre' of connector? I was thinking they were
> high density d-subs?
>
> I'll dig around in my install manuals and see
> if I can confirm.
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
The 430 has both std & hi density connectors. the stock backshells are appar
ently available from only one or two sources. Here's an ebay listing with a p
retty good pic:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/GNS430-GNS430W-GNS530-GNS530W-Connector-Kits-011-00
351-00-/143440923345?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10
In my not so humble opinion, the backplane/connector arrangement is almost e
nough reason, by itself, to avoid Garmin. A real nightmare dealing with the t
iny screws using a foot long screwdriver reaching into the back of the tray.
..
Charlie
Virus-free. www.avast.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Carter <david(at)carter.net> |
| Subject: | Physical construction of Z101 engine bus & battery |
bus
Bob,
I see that both of these busses are specified with 6" max feeds from their
sources (main contactor and diode bridge). What is the recommended
physical realization of these bus designs? Fuse blocks on the engine side
of the firewall? Inline fuses? Are the loads intended to be fused,
breakered, or a mix? Similarly, what is the suggested construction of the
"fat wire tie point?"
In my case, I believe everything on the engine bus will be on the cabin
side of the firewall - an AFP fuel pump & two SDS CPI-2 ignition control
units. I could perhaps put a pair of 6" 12 AWG wires through the firewall
at the contactor & mount a fuse block on the cabin side at that point.
The battery bus may be only a single connection to the aux alternator, or I
may find that I need a clock feed. If it's just a single feed, the bus
construction doesn't get any simpler. BTW, I just noticed there are two
feeds on the battery bus labeled "aux alt".
Also, I note that the alt feed from the relay to the engine bus is not
asterisked as a short run. I think practically it will be, but I wonder if
there is a reason it's not asterisked?
Thanks!
---
David Carter
david(at)carter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Physical construction of Z101 engine bus & battery |
bus
Could someone please re-post the link to Z101? Thanks.
On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 4:43 AM David Carter wrote:
> Bob,
>
> I see that both of these busses are specified with 6" max feeds from their
> sources (main contactor and diode bridge). What is the recommended
> physical realization of these bus designs? Fuse blocks on the engine side
> of the firewall? Inline fuses? Are the loads intended to be fused,
> breakered, or a mix? Similarly, what is the suggested construction of the
> "fat wire tie point?"
>
> In my case, I believe everything on the engine bus will be on the cabin
> side of the firewall - an AFP fuel pump & two SDS CPI-2 ignition control
> units. I could perhaps put a pair of 6" 12 AWG wires through the firewall
> at the contactor & mount a fuse block on the cabin side at that point.
>
> The battery bus may be only a single connection to the aux alternator, or
> I may find that I need a clock feed. If it's just a single feed, the bus
> construction doesn't get any simpler. BTW, I just noticed there are two
> feeds on the battery bus labeled "aux alt".
>
> Also, I note that the alt feed from the relay to the engine bus is not
> asterisked as a short run. I think practically it will be, but I wonder if
> there is a reason it's not asterisked?
>
> Thanks!
>
> ---
> David Carter
> david(at)carter.net
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Physical construction of Z101 engine bus & battery |
bus
| From: | "bcone1381" <bcone1964(at)gmail.com> |
https://tinyurl.com/yavoutjh
--------
Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496645#496645
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Physical construction of Z101 engine bus & battery |
bus
At 08:50 AM 6/6/2020, you wrote:
>Could someone please re-post the link to Z101? Thanks.
https://tinyurl.com/yc4r5huy
Latest iteration on the next revision level.
I've been sifting through the details and
I think it's 99% 'clean'.
I'm also working on a set of notes that
elaborates on the evolution of concepts
illustrated.
I'm kinda 'distracted' with a bathroom
remodel at the moment but you guys can
massage this thread . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Physical construction of Z101 engine bus & battery |
bus
| From: | Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> |
On 6/6/2020 7:36 AM, David Carter wrote:
> Bob,
>
> I see that both of these busses are specified with 6" max feeds from
> their sources (main contactor and diode bridge). What is the
> recommended physicalrealization of these bus designs? Fuse blocks on
> the engine side of the firewall? Inline fuses? Are the loads intended
> to be fused, breakered, or a mix? Similarly, what is the suggested
> construction of the "fat wire tie point?"
>
> In my case, I believe everythingon the engine bus will be on the
> cabin side of the firewall - an AFP fuel pump & two SDS CPI-2 ignition
> control units. I could perhaps put a pair of 6" 12 AWG wires through
> the firewall at the contactor & mount a fuse block on the cabin side
> at that point.
>
> The battery bus may be only a single connection to the aux alternator,
> or I may find that I need a clock feed. If it's just a single feed,
> the bus construction doesn't get any simpler. BTW, I just noticed
> there are two feeds on the battery bus labeled "aux alt".
>
> Also, I note that the alt feed from the relay to the engine bus is not
> asterisked as a short run. I think practically it will be, but I
> wonder if there is a reason it's not asterisked?
>
> Thanks!
>
> ---
> David Carter
> david(at)carter.net
I think that the two feeds to the bat bus are actually the alt output,
and the feed (control) to the alt's regulator. Look at the connections
to the regulator, at the bottom of the drawing.
I think that the feed from the alt feed relay to the engine bus is
'protected' by the relay.
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stein Bruch <stein(at)steinair.com> |
| Subject: | Connector Shells |
WellIt=99s hardly a singular Garmin issue, as they are the s
ame on Avidyne,
(as well as Bendix King, Narco, L3, PSE, etc..) so if you are all about
avoiding using a long screwdriver to remove the backplate and/or connectors
you=99re not left with much choice of avionics.
The newer generation stuff is much better, but much of the older generation
stuff is a pain (regardless of brand).
Cheers,
Stein
*From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <
owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> *On Behalf Of *Charlie Englan
d
*Sent:* Friday, June 5, 2020 6:43 PM
*To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Connector Shells
The 430 has both std & hi density connectors. the stock backshells are
apparently available from only one or two sources. Here's an ebay listing
with a pretty good pic:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/GNS430-GNS430W-GNS530-GNS530W-Connector-Kits-011-0
0351-00-/143440923345?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10
In my not so humble opinion, the backplane/connector arrangement is almost
enough reason, by itself, to avoid Garmin. A real nightmare dealing with
the tiny screws using a foot long screwdriver reaching into the back of the
tray...
Charlie
Virus-free. www.avast.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Essential Bus Diode Voltage D-25 voltage drop of 2.3V? |
| From: | "plevyakh" <hplevyak(at)mac.com> |
Guys,
I'm using the standard AeroElectric Z-13/8 design with the E-Bus. I have Lighspeed
dual electronic ignitions with 1 powered by main batt, and 2nd powered by
the E-Bus.
I've noticed a signficant voltage drop from my Main Bus (@ 14.3V), through the
diode (D-25) and to my E-Bus (@12.0V).
I was expecting .5 to .7V drop across the D-25, but can't find a spec sheet for
the Vf curve.
It became evident when my Low Volts warning started complaining.
What should I check to track down this increase in voltage drop?
Should I just swap in another D-25? I've been flying for 350hrs.
Is there another diode of choice now of a Diode I can use to swap in its place?
Where can I purchase the AEC9001 Schottky Power Diode if that's a better option.
Thanks!
Howard
GlaStar
--------
Howard Plevyak
GlaStar / Cincinnati, Ohio
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496651#496651
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Essential Bus Diode Voltage D-25 voltage drop of |
2.3V?
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
If the diode voltage drop has been low for 350 hours, but recently increased,
the check for a bad connection between the main power bus and the E-Bus.
Schottky Diode part number: 747-DSS2X61-0045A
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496652#496652
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Physical construction of Z101 engine bus & battery |
bus
| From: | "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> |
Since bob gave permission to others to answer, here are my suggestions:
Mount both relays as close as practical to the battery.
Doing that meets the 6" wire length rule of thumb.
Since you want the engine bus located on the cabin side of the firewall, also
move the diode bridge to aft of the firewall between the main power bus and the
engine bus.
Move the diode feed from the main battery contactor to main power bus. Electrically
it will be the
same, just connected to the other end of the 6AWG feeder.
Since there are only 2 items connected to the battery bus, consider eliminating
the battery bus.
Connect both items to the battery post using inline fuses.
Use all fuses except for the alternator feed 5 amp breaker.
Fuses cost less, weigh less, and never fail to blow when required.
Never replace fuses or reset breakers in flight, except perhaps the alternator
field.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496653#496653
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Harbinger of summer . . . a yearly shop ritual |
Just got the air conditioners up and running in the
shop. I've been practicing an exceedingly practical
ritual that Listers may find useful:
https://tinyurl.com/yawlgvnr
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Essential Bus Diode Voltage D-25 voltage drop |
of 2.3V?
>
>What should I check to track down this increase in voltage drop?
Get your voltmeter out, ground the (-) lead and then
probe the pathway from main bus through the diode
to the e-bus.
I've never seen a diode fail in such a manner. You
could swap a new one in temporarily as part of the
investigation but I don't think your going to find
that to be root cause.
>Should I just swap in another D-25? I've been flying for 350hrs.
>
>Is there another diode of choice now of a Diode I can use to swap in
>its place? Where can I purchase the AEC9001 Schottky Power Diode if
>that's a better option.
Pull the fast-ons off the old diode and push them
onto a new diode without mounting it to get a quick
voltage check. You're going to have to crawl around
under there to get at the pathway joints anyhow.
Return on investment for 'going Schottky' is limited.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Physical construction of Z101 engine bus |
& battery bus
At 07:59 PM 6/6/2020, you wrote:
>
>Since bob gave permission to others to answer, here are my suggestions:
you never need my permission . . . this is a moderated
forum for open discussion.
>Mount both relays as close as practical to the battery.
>Doing that meets the 6" wire length rule of thumb.
The 6-inch rule is a holdover from waaayyy back when
where the FAA deemed it acceptable to 'burn a piece
of wire that is 6-inches or less in length'. I.e.
no fault protection required.
One can only guess details of reasoning behind this bit
of 1960's wisdom.
Today we can strive to keep potentially vulnerable
(smaller gages) of 'unprotected' wires to a minimum.
Control installation such that probability for
hard faults to ground are exceedingly rare.
Use of fusible link wire where practical (here
there is a 9-inch rule of thumb for MINIMUM
length).
If the wire has to go through a firewall,
provide mechanical protection over and
above normally fused branch wires (two
layers of heat shrink?)
>Since you want the engine bus located on the cabin side of the firewall, also
>move the diode bridge to aft of the firewall between the main power
>bus and the engine bus.
>Move the diode feed from the main battery contactor to main power
>bus. Electrically it will be the
>same, just connected to the other end of the 6AWG feeder.
>
>Since there are only 2 items connected to the battery bus, consider
>eliminating the battery bus.
>Connect both items to the battery post using inline fuses.
>
>Use all fuses except for the alternator feed 5 amp breaker.
>Fuses cost less, weigh less, and never fail to blow when required.
>Never replace fuses or reset breakers in flight, except perhaps the
>alternator field.
Sounds like a plan . . .
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Physical construction of Z101 engine bus & battery |
bus
Bob, regarding Z101, it seems that auto conversions like the Honda based
Viking and Suzuki based Aeromomentum are becoming more and more popular.
These engines are electrically dependent, but they do not lend themselves
to a dual alternator setup. I wonder if you would consider developing a
Z101-B that utilized dual batteries rather than dual alternators?
Ken
On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 7:00 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 08:50 AM 6/6/2020, you wrote:
>
> Could someone please re-post the link to Z101? Thanks.
>
>
> https://tinyurl.com/yc4r5huy
>
> Latest iteration on the next revision level.
> I've been sifting through the details and
> I think it's 99% 'clean'.
>
> I'm also working on a set of notes that
> elaborates on the evolution of concepts
> illustrated.
>
> I'm kinda 'distracted' with a bathroom
> remodel at the moment but you guys can
> massage this thread . . .
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Carter <david(at)carter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Physical construction of Z101 engine bus & |
battery bus
Thanks for the replies. I was not aware of the 9" minimum length on fusible
links. Is that somewhere in the Connection? Are crimped butt connectors
adequate for connecting the fusible link to the protected wire?
I recently received some of this fusible link wire in both 12 & 14 gauge.
Anyone have experience with it?
Pico 8124PT 12 Gauge Fusible Link...
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002ZGBRE?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
PICO 8125PT 14 AWG Fusible Link Wire
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004BT6NZ2?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
Regards,
David
On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:50 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 07:59 PM 6/6/2020, you wrote:
>
>
> Since bob gave permission to others to answer, here are my suggestions:
>
>
> you never need my permission . . . this is a moderated
> forum for open discussion.
>
> Mount both relays as close as practical to the battery.
> Doing that meets the 6" wire length rule of thumb.
>
>
> The 6-inch rule is a holdover from waaayyy back when
> where the FAA deemed it acceptable to 'burn a piece
> of wire that is 6-inches or less in length'. I.e.
> no fault protection required.
>
> One can only guess details of reasoning behind this bit
> of 1960's wisdom.
>
> Today we can strive to keep potentially vulnerable
> (smaller gages) of 'unprotected' wires to a minimum.
> Control installation such that probability for
> hard faults to ground are exceedingly rare.
>
> Use of fusible link wire where practical (here
> there is a 9-inch rule of thumb for MINIMUM
> length).
>
> If the wire has to go through a firewall,
> provide mechanical protection over and
> above normally fused branch wires (two
> layers of heat shrink?)
>
>
> Since you want the engine bus located on the cabin side of the firewall,
> also
> move the diode bridge to aft of the firewall between the main power bus
> and the engine bus.
> Move the diode feed from the main battery contactor to main power bus.
> Electrically it will be the
> same, just connected to the other end of the 6AWG feeder.
>
> Since there are only 2 items connected to the battery bus, consider
> eliminating the battery bus.
> Connect both items to the battery post using inline fuses.
>
> Use all fuses except for the alternator feed 5 amp breaker.
> Fuses cost less, weigh less, and never fail to blow when required.
> Never replace fuses or reset breakers in flight, except perhaps the
> alternator field.
>
> Sounds like a plan . . .
>
> Bob . . .
>
--
---
David Carter
david(at)carter.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | digest distribution stopped? |
| From: | "farmrjohn" <faithvineyard(at)yahoo.com> |
Has the digest distribution stopped? I haven't received one for some time now.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496660#496660
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GTH <gilles.thesee(at)free.fr> |
| Subject: | DIY replacement for Rotax voltage regulator |
Hi all,
Some weeks ago, Mike Millers gave is kind permission to publish his
homebuilt version for a Rotax voltage regulator
http://contrails.free.fr/elec_alt_miller_en.php
Feel free to comment or ad complementary data.
FWIW,
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY replacement for Rotax voltage regulator |
On 2020-06-07, at 19:49, GTH wrote:
> Some weeks ago, Mike Millers gave is kind permission to publish his homebuilt
version for a Rotax voltage regulator
>
> http://contrails.free.fr/elec_alt_miller_en.php
>
> Feel free to comment or ad complementary data.
Gilles - thanks for the reminder. I downloaded the file package (chiefly as an
academic exercise at the present) but I was unable to open the PCB file with any
of the versions of EAGLE now available for my Mac. Turned out it was created
in a very elderly version of the EAGLE PCB design software. Ive since had help
from various folk (including Mike Miller) to convert the PCB file to a version
that can be read by current versions of EAGLE. If theres somewhere I could
post the updated file that could be accessible to others and is likely to stay
available for the foreseeable future, Id be glad to know of it.
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Physical construction of Z101 engine bus & battery |
bus
At 11:32 AM 6/7/2020, you wrote:
>Bob, regarding Z101, it seems that auto conversions like the Honda
>based Viking and Suzuki based Aeromomentum are becoming more and
>more popular. These engines are electrically dependent, but they do
>not lend themselves to a dual alternator setup. I wonder if you
>would consider developing a Z101-B that utilized dual batteries
>rather than dual alternators?
Is it not possible/practical to maintain one battery
such that it is capable of supporting the engine
in an alternator-out scenario?
How are the duties of two batteries allocated in what
I presume is a engine manufacturer's recommendation
for dual batteries?
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Physical construction of Z101 engine bus |
& battery bus
At 11:41 AM 6/7/2020, you wrote:
>Thanks for the replies. I was not aware of the 9" minimum length on
>fusible links. Is that somewhere in the Connection?
not yet but will be called out on Z101's notes . . . and probably
as 6" minimum.
>Are crimped butt connectors adequate for connecting the fusible link
>to the protected wire?
Yes
>I recently received some of this fusible link wire in both 12 & 14
>gauge. Anyone have experience with it?
Used on millions of cars for decades. Will be
testing here on the bench and recording the
results. Crimped or soldered joints will, I
trust, prove satisfactory. There is nothing
magic about the wire . . . it's the insulation
that makes it special.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY replacement for Rotax voltage regulator |
>Gilles - thanks for the reminder. I downloaded
>the file package (chiefly as an academic
>exercise at the present) but I was unable to
>open the PCB file with any of the versions of
>EAGLE now available for my Mac. Turned out it
>was created in a very elderly version of the
>EAGLE PCB design software. I=99ve since had help
>from various folk (including Mike Miller) to
>convert the PCB file to a version that can be
>read by current versions of EAGLE. If there=99s
>somewhere I could post the updated file that
>could be accessible to others and is likely to
>stay available for the foreseeable future, I=99d be glad to know of
it.
>in friendship
>
>Rowland
Send it to me. I'll archive it in a folder
on AeroElectric.com along with the rest
of the package.
Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Physical construction of Z101 engine bus & battery |
bus
I am not speaking to any engine manufacturers recommendation (although the
Honda Viking manufacturer does recommend two batteries. I just thought I
was applying logic -- if dual alternator + battery (triple power source) is
desirable for electrically dependent engines, wouldn't that reasoning imply
that if the second alternator is not practical, a second battery could be
used as the third power source? I could ask you a similar question: Are not
two independent power sources (battery and alternator) sufficient to meet
the needs of the electrically dependent engine. Obviously you saw value in
adding the second alternator. Why no value in adding the second battery?
On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 12:32 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 11:32 AM 6/7/2020, you wrote:
>
> Bob, regarding Z101, it seems that auto conversions like the Honda based
> Viking and Suzuki based Aeromomentum are becoming more and more popular.
> These engines are electrically dependent, but they do not lend themselves
> to a dual alternator setup. I wonder if you would consider developing a
> Z101-B that utilized dual batteries rather than dual alternators?
>
>
> Is it not possible/practical to maintain one battery
> such that it is capable of supporting the engine
> in an alternator-out scenario?
>
> How are the duties of two batteries allocated in what
> I presume is a engine manufacturer's recommendation
> for dual batteries?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: DIY replacement for Rotax voltage regulator |
| From: | GTH <gilles.thesee(at)free.fr> |
Le 07/06/2020 21:56, Rowland Carson a crit:
> /I downloaded the file package (chiefly as an academic exercise at the
> present) but I was unable to open the PCB file with any of the
> versions of EAGLE now available for my Mac. Turned out it was created
> in a very elderly version of the EAGLE PCB design software. Ive since
> had help from various folk (including Mike Miller) to convert the PCB
> file to a version that can be read by current versions of EAGLE. If
> theres somewhere I could post the updated file that could be
> accessible to others and is likely to stay available for the
> foreseeable future, Id be glad to know of it. /
Rowland and all,
Thanks for your offer.
I was able to open the files with a free version of Eagle I downloaded
last week, and converted them to gerber files that can be read by any
CAD program - and any vendor for that matter.
But I'm not at all familiar with Eagle so I'm not sure I did it right.
So if you or anyone can provide verified gerber files I'd willingly
publish them so one can directly order from a PCB vendor.
By the way some times ago I had very good success with several PCB
orders from a far East company, at a price of $5 for 10 pcs (100x100 mm
~4"x4"). Not much more expensive for larger dimensions.
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graeme Hart <graeme.hart(at)onecoolkat.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DIY replacement for Rotax voltage regulator |
Hi Rowland
I was able to open the original file in a PC version of Eagle.
I'm sure you already know this but for the benefit of others, the only
issue I noticed was the size. It came up as 4.00 x 3.93 inches (101.6 x
99.8mm). If it was resized so that it was 100 x 100 mm or smaller then it
can be sent to one of the cheap board houses as a prototype board and
manufactured for as little as US$21 for five boards delivered via DHL.
This was from JLCPCB who seem to be the cheapest at the moment. I've used
them for one board and they seem perfectly up to the task of producing a
simple board like this.
Graeme
On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 8:11 AM Rowland Carson
wrote:
> rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>
>
> On 2020-06-07, at 19:49, GTH wrote:
>
> > Some weeks ago, Mike Millers gave is kind permission to publish his
> homebuilt version for a Rotax voltage regulator
> >
> > http://contrails.free.fr/elec_alt_miller_en.php
> >
> > Feel free to comment or ad complementary data.
>
>
> Gilles - thanks for the reminder. I downloaded the file package (chiefly
> as an academic exercise at the present) but I was unable to open the PCB
> file with any of the versions of EAGLE now available for my Mac. Turned o
ut
> it was created in a very elderly version of the EAGLE PCB design software
.
> I=99ve since had help from various folk (including Mike Miller) to
convert
> the PCB file to a version that can be read by current versions of EAGLE.
If
> there=99s somewhere I could post the updated file that could be acc
essible to
> others and is likely to stay available for the foreseeable future, I
=99d be
> glad to know of it.
>
> in friendship
>
> Rowland
>
> | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
> | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk
> | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Foghorn Inc <foghorn757(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Physical construction of Z101 engine bus & battery |
bus
SDSEFI recommends 2 alternators and a battery. If you have a single battery a
nd alternator they recommend an additional battery that is only connected to
the ENG BUS for an emergency. The recommended procedure is to charge that b
attery on the 1st of the month and load test yearly.
I=99m going with 2 alternators and an ETX-900 battery for my dual SDSE
FI setup.
Jeff Parker
757-817-4929
> On Jun 7, 2020, at 18:37, Ken Ryan wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
> I am not speaking to any engine manufacturers recommendation (although the
Honda Viking manufacturer does recommend two batteries. I just thought I wa
s applying logic -- if dual alternator + battery (triple power source) is de
sirable for electrically dependent engines, wouldn't that reasoning imply th
at if the second alternator is not practical, a second battery could be used
as the third power source? I could ask you a similar question: Are not two i
ndependent power sources (battery and alternator) sufficient to meet the nee
ds of the electrically dependent engine. Obviously you saw value in adding t
he second alternator. Why no value in adding the second battery?
>
>
>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 12:32 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aer
oelectric.com> wrote:
>> At 11:32 AM 6/7/2020, you wrote:
>>> Bob, regarding Z101, it seems that auto conversions like the Honda based
Viking and Suzuki based Aeromomentum are becoming more and more popular. Th
ese engines are electrically dependent, but they do not lend themselves to a
dual alternator setup. I wonder if you would consider developing a Z101-B t
hat utilized dual batteries rather than dual alternators?
>>
>> Is it not possible/practical to maintain one battery
>> such that it is capable of supporting the engine
>> in an alternator-out scenario?
>>
>> How are the duties of two batteries allocated in what
>> I presume is a engine manufacturer's recommendation
>> for dual batteries?
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Physical construction of Z101 engine bus & battery |
bus
At 05:26 PM 6/7/2020, you wrote:
>I am not speaking to any engine manufacturers recommendation (although the
>Honda Viking manufacturer does recommend two batteries. I just thought
>I was applying logic -- if dual alternator=C2 + battery (triple power
source)
>is desirable for electrically=C2 dependent engines, wouldn't that reasoning
>imply that if the second alternator is not practical, a second battery
>could be used as the third power source? I could ask you a similar
question:
>Are not two independent power sources (battery and alternator) sufficient
>to meet the needs of the electrically=C2 dependent engine. Obviously you
>saw value in adding the second alternator. Why
>no value in adding the second battery?
Excellent question.
It's a problem in energy budgets combined with
efforts to assure continued airworthiness.
The airplane cannot do without a battery if
you're going to have a starter. Depending on
your planned mission profiles, you will want
to size the battery (1) for cranking then
(2) minimum endurance in alternator-out modes.
This study gave impetus for the creation of
the endurance bus . . . a fast and predictable
way to economically tap known quantity of energy
stored in the battery's chemistry.
Z13/8 was a small but significant amplification
of that idea . . . the second alternator's endurance
had no practical limits. Hence, energy on the chemistry
just might be held completely in reserve for
descent and approach to landing.
Z13/20 (and the aux alternator option on
Z101) expanded the Z13/8 endurance opportunity
by a factor of 2.5 or better.
Okay, suppose the drive pad isn't available.
We are still charged with identifying and the
delivering to energy required to comfortably
terminate a worst-case mission.
This means that as a part of routine maintenance
the ship's chemistry needs to be monitored for
capability. We could certainly store that energy
on TWO devices but to what advantage? If we're laboring
under the notion that a battery can suddenly become
unavailable during one tank of gas, then we have
to assume that EITHER battery can roll over and
die . . . okay, how would that failure be
annunciated . . . how would remaining energy be
managed . . . ?
I think that's the scenario anticipated by the
folks that crafted that battery manager with a
full-wave rectifier that -anded- two, completely
isolated batteries together. Assume the alternator
has quit and some time later one battery
craps out. How does the pilot become aware of the
problem and what kind of energy juggling issues
are presented when the available energy drops
to half? This assuming he really knows that the
two batteries were performing equally and has
recently quantified their condition, he now
has to come up with a new "plan C?" and perhaps
May 03, 2020 - June 07, 2020
AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-pk